# plz help



## HARD MOUTH KENNELS (Apr 9, 2014)

Plz help! I have a female who came in season for the first time i inbread her (1tie) to her moms littermate brother tab / jeep /boyles and recieved 11 pups long storry short the pups are 4months old and she is still off and on bleading. I took her to the vet wich was useless she gave me antibiotics (pills) but still no improvement. Has anyone had this happen to your dog? Help plz


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Did I read that correctly, you bred your bitch on her first heat?


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## DickyT (Jan 29, 2014)

Carriana said:


> Did I read that correctly, you bred your bitch on her first heat?


That's how I read it too...

It's too late now, but NEVER breed a bitch on her 1st heat, or 2nd...

I'm no breeder, but been around dogs enough to know that any breeder worth half a crap will wait til the 3rd and have had their vet health test the bitch before mating her.

I'm hoping it is just a grammatical misrepresentation of the actual situation.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Yes, obviously too late, but I do wonder if the breeding of an immature female has something to do with her not bouncing back after whelping. I know immature females can also have inconsistent seasons too. 

Did the vet actually detect/diagnose an infection or did they just arbitrarily prescribe antibiotics? If they're not giving specific answers I would seek a second opinion from another vet.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I would get a second opinion Sorry no experience with what you are seeing.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I find it funny your name sounds like you are a kennel yet you don't seem to know basics of breeding.. A vet won't just give you drugs and send you off, might be helpful for us to help you if you can tell us what the vet said? sounds like an infection of some sort, what tests did the vet do and what drugs did she give you for her? Also does she have a fever? is it just blood that is discharging? what color is it bright yet ? black ? green ? any foul odor you notice? start with those questions and we can see where to go next .


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## HARD MOUTH KENNELS (Apr 9, 2014)

For starters ive bred dogs for 7yrs and ive always bred on the first heat and this is the first time i had this problem so miss me wit da sarcastic BS. Funny ppl would rather critisize and try to belittle a person rather than helping them. God bless thnx


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## Alapaha_Bully (Apr 8, 2014)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> For starters ive bred dogs for 7yrs and ive always bred on the first heat and this is the first time i had this problem so miss me wit da sarcastic BS. Funny ppl would rather critisize and try to belittle a person rather than helping them. God bless thnx


^People like you have no business breeding dogs! Any reputable breeder knows better than to breed on the first heat! This saddens me. It's obvious that you are breeding dogs soley for the purpose of profit. I suggest you take that dog to another vet immediately...i have no further advice for a byb, sorry.


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## HARD MOUTH KENNELS (Apr 9, 2014)

Whats so wrong with breeding on the first heat? Dogs that arent domesticated dont wait til the second or third heat are u telling me nature is incorrect?

P.S the pure bred bloodlines are in FL. Dat other shit is watered down back wash!


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## Alapaha_Bully (Apr 8, 2014)

This is why you shouldn't breed your dog on her first heat cycle... Mobile Site Preview A female should NEVER be bred on her first heat (she has immature eggs) and preferably not her second either. The rule of thumb that works best is to breed on the third season, or at one and a half to two years of age, and after all health tests have been passed


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## Alapaha_Bully (Apr 8, 2014)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> Whats so wrong with breeding on the first heat? Dogs that arent domesticated dont wait til the second or third heat are u telling me nature is incorrect?
> U people think u better and know more than every one news flash yal MF dont kno everything!
> U can keep ur help and advice ive made it thus far without ur ingenuis
> P.S the pure bred bloodlines are in FL. Dat other shit is watered down back wash!


It's kinda funny that you say we think that we know everything and that we don't know everything, but you are here asking us what to do for your dog! And incase you missed it... A female should NEVER be bred on her first heat (she has immature eggs) and preferably not her second either. The rule of thumb that works best is to breed on the third season, or at one and a half to two years of age, and after all health tests have been passed


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

HMK I am not a breeder, not have I bred dogs before. 

But my question would be, what has your puppy shown that makes it worthy to be bred?

What have the parents achieved that would make you think the pups would be worthy of breeding? 

There is a serious problem with overpopulation of dogs in general. I live in a country where wild dogs breed indiscriminately. And the thing that I have seen with those dogs is that for the most part they are not the kind of dog you would want as a pet. And also most of them don't live to see many years. It's a huge problem here. 

we are what we do repeatedly. excellence is then not an act, but a habit. - Aristotle


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> For starters ive bred dogs for 7yrs and ive always bred on the first heat and this is the first time i had this problem so miss me wit da sarcastic BS. Funny ppl would rather critisize and try to belittle a person rather than helping them. God bless thnx


Carriana did give advice, if you missed it. Really the only advice we can give. Tell your vet there is no improvement or go to another vet. We are not vets and even if we were there's no way we could diagnose your dog online.

If you are as experienced as you say you are, you should know it's REALLY a bad idea to breed on the first heat. The bitch isn't even done maturing yet, and having puppies is hard enough on a bitch as it is. I also find it hard to believe an experienced breeder would need to ask strangers on the internet about something like this.

How long has she taken the antibiotics? Have you given them time to start working? If it's been a while with no improvement like everyone has already said go back to a vet.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> Whats so wrong with breeding on the first heat? Dogs that arent domesticated dont wait til the second or third heat are u telling me nature is incorrect?
> U people think u better and know more than every one news flash yal MF dont kno everything!
> U can keep ur help and advice ive made it thus far without ur ingenuis
> P.S the pure bred bloodlines are in FL. Dat other shit is watered down back wash!


No they do not. But as a breeder you are being held to a higher standard than just letting your dogs mate willy-nilly as they please. How can you guarantee your customers a quality pup if your bitch isn't even old enough for her health tests to mean anything? How can you prove your dogs are a good representation of the breed with no titles?

As a breeder you are supposed to be bettering the breed. From your posts here I'm not getting that impression...


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Wow. A dog isn't even fully mature by the first heat. PUPPIES often don't make the best parents, not to mention common health issues, which a reputable breeder tests for (hips, elbows etc) cannot even be tested for until 2 years of age. Just because a bitch has had her first season does not in any way mean she's physically or mentally mature enough to be BRED (not "bread"). This is breeding 101. The fact that you come onto a dog forum asking the questions you are asking is a huge red flag that despite your seven years of so called experience you are nothing but a backyard breeder. Dogs are domesticated products of man, not wild animals. Their seasons vary significantly from those of wild animals in nature. Breeding a bitch on her first heat is unethical. Period. The best advice you will receive has already been provided, go back to your vet or seek a second opinion.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Carriana said:


> Wow. A dog isn't even fully mature by the first heat. PUPPIES often don't make the best parents, not to mention common health issues, which a reputable breeder tests for (hips, elbows etc) cannot even be tested for until 2 years of age. Just because a bitch has had her first season does not in any way mean she's physically or mentally mature enough to be BRED (not "bread"). This is breeding 101. The fact that you come onto a dog forum asking the questions you are asking is a huge red flag that despite your seven years of so called experience you are nothing but a backyard breeder. Dogs are domesticated products of man, not wild animals. Their seasons vary significantly from those of wild animals in nature. Breeding a bitch on her first heat is unethical. Period. The best advice you will receive has already been provided, go back to your vet or seek a second opinion.


great post!!! u are far better with words than i am, and have said everything i wanted to. :thumbsup:


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

im still laughing at the pure breed bloodlines are in FL the rest are watered down bahahahah.. did not know pure breds are only in FL, good to know .. thank god we have someone so educated to come on here and school us all now lol. I did ask some questions to HELP you but you seem to be a troll and looking to start drama vs getting help for unmature pup who just had puppies.. If you want to answer some questions we can maybe help , if not then there isn't much we can do going off what you posted.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

And PS just because you breed dogs for 7 years does mean you are legit and ethical.. lots of puppy millers run for decades , means nothing more then you have continued bad ethic breeding for a long time...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> Whats so wrong with breeding on the first heat? Dogs that arent domesticated dont wait til the second or third heat are u telling me nature is incorrect?
> 
> P.S the pure bred bloodlines are in FL. Dat other shit is watered down back wash!


Feral dogs and domesticated dogs are two separate issues. And wtf does Florida have to do with anything??? It's not a location that designates if a dog is well bred or a BYB experiment. And when a dog hasn't proven themselves to be worthy of breeding, but are bred anyway, it makes you a back yard breeder and that's what is ruining dogs.

What is the reason you think your dog is worthy of being bred at such a young age? What has she accomplished? And we all answered your question. Find a reputable vet none of use pretend to know everything hence why a vet was suggested.

Sent from Petguide.com App so please excuse the typos


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## MtnMama (Apr 2, 2014)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> Whats so wrong with breeding on the first heat? Dogs that arent domesticated dont wait til the second or third heat are u telling me nature is incorrect?
> 
> P.S the pure bred bloodlines are in FL. Dat other shit is watered down back wash!


Humans are physically capable of breeding much earlier than we typically do... are we going against nature, too? By your logic, it's okay for 9 - 12 yr old girls to be popping out kids. Our bodies, though capable of breeding, need time to mature so we can reproduce at our healthiest. This is no different for the dogs; they may be physically capable of reproducing, but it's much better for them and their puppies if they wait.

Also, coming on a forum and asking for help, then calling their dogs "watered down back wash" is pretty ballsy and rude...


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

these women folk are doing their dead level best to be civil with you jerk!

7 years my foot! more like 7 days.

and the watered down part;;;; tell ya what cuz! meet me in ga. we'll see whats watered and whats aint! I'm in sc so that's 1/2 way.

gtfoh.

if I insulted you, run tell a moderator plz! you jerk! folks like you make me wanna puke!


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## Jodie (Mar 7, 2014)

I think your grammar needs as much help as your dogs do, sorrynotsorry


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

the only thing I'd correct you on is your spelling.. LOL 

Look man, or woman.. Its not bad to breed a dog on her first heat IF you want her to have pups several times through her life. It opens the hips while they are still pliable. 

NOW.. she is in her heat cycle??? or she has discharged black blood and mucous continuosly til this POINT? 

PICTURE!!!!! and details. 

IF its a heat .. that normal.. .. if its the other then there are a few things your gonna have to narrow down. Antibiotics .. but you better go to the horse doctor and tell em you need penicillan injectable and good syringe. You also need to give her RAW meat to increas HER IRON and other most essential nutrients, protiens and amino acids. 


after a litter a female will come in heat when they are 4-9months old. 


IF its black blood and discharge mucous... then there is an issue.


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## Alapaha_Bully (Apr 8, 2014)

Firehazard said:


> the only thing I'd correct you on is your spelling.. LOL
> 
> Look man, or woman.. Its not bad to breed a dog on her first heat IF you want her to have pups several times through her life. It opens the hips while they are still pliable.
> 
> ...


A female dog should not be bred during first heat...she is physically and mentally immature and not even old enough for proper testing until 2 years! Here's a link with some info 
Dog Breeding | Whitney Veterinary Hospital


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> the only thing I'd correct you on is your spelling.. LOL
> 
> Look man, or woman.. Its not bad to breed a dog on her first heat IF you want her to have pups several times through her life. It opens the hips while they are still pliable.
> 
> ...


I know u know ur stuff Stan. I ain't gonna argue with u.... but I think u need to break out ur crayons on this one and leave the technical stuff for the more experienced people, like urself.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Agree with Lauren. How would someone even know a dog is worthy of being bred on their first heat? You can't do health testing yet on a dog that little (not even thinking of maturity or multiple breedings best to open her pelvis up comment) come on Stan people breeding on first heat? What?! lol

Sent from Petguide.com App so please excuse the typos


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Stan you know your blood and you know what you are working with enough to be able to breed like this, you understand what you are getting what you are producing ect . this is some newbie who knows nothing on what they are doing , don't encourage people like this to breed on 1st heats. many bitches don't have litters until 2 years or older when they are mature and have no issue having litters, so that pelvic shit is crap and just another excuse these crap breeders will use to over produce sub par dogs.


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## HARD MOUTH KENNELS (Apr 9, 2014)

U guys asked me what my bitch showed me that makes her worthy of being bred?
Ever heard of the name TOMMY WALKER out of florida (if not google him) i have known tommy for ten years personally. We live in the same city. I have been breeding his dogs for 7years and they have shown and proven themselves in numerous of kennels across the country. I was an apprentice to tommy for two years. So i might not know everything but i am very experienced with k9s.


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## Alapaha_Bully (Apr 8, 2014)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> U guys asked me what my bitch showed me that makes her worthy of being bred?
> Ever heard of the name TOMMY WALKER out of florida (if not google him) i have known tommy for ten years personally. We live in the same city. I have been breeding his dogs for 7years and they have shown and proven themselves in numerous of kennels across the country. I was an apprentice to tommy for two years. So i might not know everything but i am very experienced with k9s.


Then you should know better...and you still didn't quite answer the question. T Walker has some good blood, but breeding females have to have certain testing also, that cannot be done until a certain age.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> Plz help! I have a female who came in season for the first time i inbread her (1tie) to her moms littermate brother tab / jeep /boyles and recieved 11 pups long storry short the pups are 4months old and she is still off and on bleading. I took her to the vet wich was useless she gave me antibiotics (pills) but still no improvement. Has anyone had this happen to your dog? Help plz


Hard Mouth Kennels, and you are on a dog forum with strangers asking questions?

"Bread" is a food, in case you didn't know!

First heat????????????????

Idiots like you are ruining this breed! Fix her and hang up the gloves, for you have already failed!

End of story! You want help, it will cost you! Pay the bills and quit being cheap! Get to a good vet.

If you don;t have the money, you had no business breeding in the first place!


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

To the OP, we don't condone nor promote reckless breeding of dogs here just because they have well known blood or because someone knows someone who has good bloodlines. We promote responsible, ethical breeding, meaning your dog should have accomplished something in its life to prove itself worthy of breeding, along with proper health testing (to know what genetic problems/traits may be passed down), which can only be done after the dog has matured in most cases. Not to mention testing for canine STDs, and other issues that can cause sterilization and death to the brood bitch. Just because you've been someone's apprentice on their yard doesn't make your dog worthy of being bred, and definitely doesn't make you qualified to fit the bill of a reputable breeder. I believe the fact that you call yourself experienced, yet have to join a forum of breed enthusiasts to ask for advice on your bitch and her current condition and medical issues proves that you should not be breeding a litter. However, the damage is done now. The best, most solid advice that can be given, has been given... TAKE YOUR BITCH TO THE VET!! 

Then, I would highly recommend you find yourself another person to apprentice under (if that's the new term to describe cleaning kennels/chain spots and slinging kibble) and learn a thing or two along the way. If you'd like to stick around and keep an open mind and learn, we're here to help the best we can. If you're going to act like you know it all because you've been shoveling dog poo and laying down straw or wood chips for the last few years, I'm here to tell you that won't get you very far.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> U guys asked me what my bitch showed me that makes her worthy of being bred?
> Ever heard of the name TOMMY WALKER out of florida (if not google him) i have known tommy for ten years personally. We live in the same city. I have been breeding his dogs for 7years and they have shown and proven themselves in numerous of kennels across the country. I was an apprentice to tommy for two years. So i might not know everything but i am very experienced with k9s.


Then go ask him for help, since you are buddies................


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

HARD MOUTH KENNELS said:


> U guys asked me what my bitch showed me that makes her worthy of being bred?
> Ever heard of the name TOMMY WALKER out of florida (if not google him) i have known tommy for ten years personally. We live in the same city. I have been breeding his dogs for 7years and they have shown and proven themselves in numerous of kennels across the country. I was an apprentice to tommy for two years. So i might not know everything but i am very experienced with k9s.


I have stood back and watched.. laughed, cried, and now its time to comment on this one...

This post in itself is the ignorance you seek to improve...

I don't care who or where your hounds came from, 2 years an apprentice doesn't make you "experienced" with bulldogs.. not to mention K9's, being that they are absolutely not the same in the differing breeds..

You asked for the answer to your question, here it is.. its a vaj (sorry ladies)

With your infinite wisdom I will humbly ask,, What color is the discharge? How thick is it? Does it smell? How often is off and on bleeding? Is the bitch active and exercised? 11 pups is a bunch, especially for a PUPPY, do you know if there were more? Did she still-born any? Antibiotics ( regardless of how useless you believe they are ) are very important, and I feel comfortable saying the Vet knows quite a bit more than your backyard breeding self..oke:

Don't give us Floridians a bad name, learn how to spell and how to speak properly, and don't forget where your own dogs come from.. You think your dogs started in FL do you?? And that any bulldog outside of FL is washed out garbage?? :stick: :stick: :stick:
Where do you think Tommys dogs come from?? If you were any kind of intelligent being you would not repeat that statement again.. Not only would this Floridian shut you up but I can send you to a dozen different states to test that theory of yours.. and show you who has garbage at their yard :thumbsup:

You belittle yourself with each passing post. Do yourself a favor and find some more mentors...instead of snobbing them away .. cheers


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

HeavyJeep said:


> I have stood back and watched.. laughed, cried, and now its time to comment on this one...
> 
> This post in itself is the ignorance you seek to improve...
> 
> ...


:goodpost: but I asked him a bunch of questions like that and he has not even bothered to respond which leads me to believe he does not want our help and is more so just a troll...


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## smokemama (Feb 11, 2013)

4 months of on again off again discharge/bleeding is a cause of concern. You should take your dog to another vet and get her blood work done,ultra sound, X-rays possibly. 11 pups for a pup to carry can take a tole on her body. With the sale of 11 dogs you can afford to do that if you value her at all.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

hard head, i mean mouth kennels, please follow these persons advice,

because you do not want me to chime in, welder, g-man, ames, are taking it easy on you,

i would not be so nice, 

in my opinion, your just another chump with a dog, and if 'tommy walker'

is who mentored you, 

thats who i want some of.........

if you think that someone who mentors newbies like he did you,

then i know he's an easy mark.............

pure bred, please, everyone in the world know the 'carolinas' is where
the good ones are.....................

any doubt, step up and prove it, 

list some if any, of that bloodlines accomplishments,

then i'll show you some 'REAL' bulldogs,

with people like you, i would cull your whole yard, 
and put you out of the dogs...............................


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Well If I hadn't of followed the works of Heinzl and JP and some ol timers I've asked about the things I've read, one in a stratton book. .. 

When you have a family of dogs or a dog just for what they'll throw ( a DNA trophy) that is to be a brood bitch, they often bred em on the first heat to open the hips a lil bit while they're soft and pliable so that when they solidafy as an adult female having pups won't be so hard on em. ... EXAMPLE: a colby bitch raven 35lb female got jammed cause she had 12 pups in a lil biddy body, emergency C section 1100.00 dollars later, 3 pups survived and the female was 3 more more and never bred. 
If I didnt follow that or some advice from others, Id have no litter off of Dutchess.. Hoagie was poisoned last year or so. Which is when I used to wait 2-3yrs. BUT dutchess is dying of cancer so .. there you have it. A DNA treasure and 1200.00 


NOW... Im a vet tech too. I've done it all but sew up the guts of an animals. I did have my hands in on it though. 




REALITY ... is ... NO ONE SHOULD BE BREEDING unless they have a good understanding of how canine genetics work, including outcrossing which is more dangerous genetically than linebreeding most often. Also one should be prepped to keep every dog. up:




Yes.... if you have a dog that grow fast and is near grown and on the first heat.. it is fine for her to be bred. SIMPLE answer. Yes in the wild wolves will breed, ignore, kill and eat females during their first estrus cycle. 

So whats that say for facts really? I answered the simple question. Now I answered the moral dilemma. 

If your going to play "God" and create.. then you must keep and cull... you must encompass the full responsibility and accountability of creating life to the fullest degree. You must be wise and must be understanding.. this is knowledge. AND NO.. you really don't KNOW... very few of us do, and most of us are still GREEN.


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## Alapaha_Bully (Apr 8, 2014)

smokemama said:


> 4 months of on again off again discharge/bleeding is a cause of concern. You should take your dog to another vet and get her blood work done,ultra sound, X-rays possibly. 11 pups for a pup to carry can take a tole on her body. With the sale of 11 dogs you can afford to do that if you value her at all.


^ Exactly :goodpost:


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