# Interesting Dogs



## sammy (Mar 30, 2009)

I've never quite seen dogs like this ENTER. Just discovered this site. For as large as they are, they do well balanced Looks like they make good hog hunters and wt pull dogs. 
The site says they are old family red nose. Sort of look like camelot dogs. Anyone ever heard of this kennel or this particular bloodline (Bensons??)
Anyway, good to see they work their dogs and there aren't deformed with hippo bodies.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah Those are NOT Old Family Red nose dogs .. They are American Bullies and look pretty typical to any other bully only they are red instead of blue .. As far as how they look I don't really have an opinion ... The Camelot bloodline has no connection or relation to the OFRN dogs they stem from two different places. Here is a good read on the OFRN

*THE "OLD FAMILY RED NOSE" DOGS 
Written By E.L. Mullins *
When we discuss the origin of the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs, we are really discussing the original dogs bred by such men as William J. Lightner and Con Feeley. It was around 1914-1916 that Red Howell, Al Dickson and Joe Peace had dogs from the first litters off of Lightner's "Vick" and Lightner's "Pansy". When the first World War came along, Joe Peace and Al Dickson were drafted and Red Howell was left with the dogs. Red Howell sold some of the dogs, however, most of the dogs he placed in capable and reliable hands of those he knew he could trust. During this time they were known as just food pit dogs. The name "Red Nose", at the time, had never been used to describe a particular line of dogs. It would be Dan McCoy who would later be credited as the first man to coin the phrase, "Old Family Red Nose" dogs to describe and distinguish these dogs as an individual line or strain of the American Pit Bull Terrier. History later gave us the litter of Ferguson's "Centipede", Hemphill's "Golddust", Morris' "Pinkie", and Howell's "Banjo", as well as their close relative, William's "Cyclone".

Robert H.(Bob) Hemphill, along with Red Howell, went to the kennel of Harvey and Owens in Amarillo, Texas and together they purchased "Golddust". "Golddust", of course, later went to Harry Clark and then to D.A. McClintock, where he died. Earl Tudor obtained "Centipede". "Centipede" was then loaned to Red Howell. Later, Earl Tudor sold "Centipede" to Dave Ferguson. Earl Tudor was also the man who owned the dog called "Cyclone" and eventually sold him to Jim Williams. It is felt that if Earl Tudor and Red Howell had not won such great battles with these dogs mentioned above, as well as other, that made this particular line so popular. This was the first time you really began to hear about "Red Nose" dogs as a strain.

Now, not all of the offspring were whelped "Red Nose" from this stock. Some people still feel that the blood in the Con Feeley dogs was much more "Red Nose" then that of the Lightner dogs. It is said W.C.(Bill) Roper bred some of the best "Red Nose" dogs, sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. I.D. Cole of Arizona also bred some extremely high caliber dogs, bred down from Slattery's "Mike" and William's "Blade". I.D. Cole also owned Cole's (Fulkerson's) "Spook", a direct grandson of the old Lightner's "Spook". However, the "Red Nose" dogs were never controlled by any one individual or select group of individuals. Many of the "Red Nose" dogs were produced through different crosses.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

In fact, there were many breeders and fanciers of the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs. There were men such as W.J. Lightner, Con Feeley, J.P. Colby, D.A. McClintock, Dan McCoy, Harvey and Owens, Ferguson, Ferrel, Conklin, Anderson, Bourgeous, Plemmons, Dickenson, Hanson, Williams, Roberts, Cole, Leo Kinard, Ed Crenshaw, Joe Beal, Jake Wilder, just to name a few. However, two of the leading breeders into the late 1960's and the man more often associated with the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs were Robert H.(Bob) Hemphill Jr. and Robert Forster (Bob) Wallace.

Robert Hemphill had been friends with Earl Tudor as early as 1914. Hemphill became personally interested in the Lightner dogs and in the 1920's began an extensive search to locate and obtain high caliber dogs from this line.

It was Dan McCoy who received word of the Frenchman who lived in Louisiana by the name of Bourgeous. Bourgeous had received several dogs directly from Mr. William Lightner and for many years had bred and raised these dogs strictly for his own personal satisfaction. Bourgeous was extremely successful in preserving the "Red Nose" strain. Robert Hemphill went with Dan McCoy to Louisiana and aided by Gaboon Trahan, they purchased several dogs from Bougeous. Hemphill's kept only the highest caliber of these "Red Nose" dogs and began to form his foundation stock from them. Hemphill's early advertisements reflect that he had been raising "Old Family Red Nose" dogs since 1927. Throughout his life, Robert Hemphill remained dedicated to the breed and faithful to the "Old Family Red Nose" line. Old advertisements throughout his life reflected his great devotion to keeping the line pure. Until 1966 he advertised strictly "Old Family Red Nose" dogs. After that time, his ads began to reflect the adage of 1/8th to 1/16th "Dibo" breeding.

Concerning the Lightner dogs, some fanciers and under the false assumption that W.J. Lightner bred only "Red Nose" dogs because of his overwhelming association with them. Those who have really done their homework know that this is not the case at all. He also raised great blacks and dark colored dogs as well. The pinnacle of Lightner's success as a breeder is demonstrated through two dogs; Hall's "Searcy Jeff", owned through time by Jim Searcy, Bob Hemphill and Dr. Hall and then Bob Wallace, was reputed as being the best of the "Red Nose" blood that could ever be bred. The second dog was "Colorado Imp", owned by Jeff Runyon and said to be the best of the black and/or dark blood that could ever be bred. Both of these dogs being bred from the same basic foundation dogs of the same man, William J. Lightner. When these two dogs met each other at Medicine Park, Okahoma in 1937, they proved William J. Lightner to be one of the greatest breeders of all time. After this meeting, Bob Wallace told Hemphill that he was going to buy this dog, "Searcy Jeff", even if it costs him a thousand dollars! Later, in 1937, when Hemphill left that part of the country, he divided up up the dogs with Red Howell and Dr. Hall. Dr. Hall received "Searcy Jeff" and Bob Wallace did eventually buy "Jeff" from him. Also in 1937, Robert Hemphill sent a young dog back to William Lightner, that dog now appears in many of the "Old Family Red Nose" line of today, that dog is known as Lightner's Pumpkin.

Bob Wallace is also remembered in history for his association and great success with "Old Family Red Nose" dogs. However, there are two main misconceptions concerning Mr. Wallace that should be cleared up at this point. One is that Hemphill and Wallace were partners. They were not. They both shared a deep respect of the "Red Nose" dogs and were both dedicated to keeping the line pure. They were both successful breeders in keeping the line pure, strong and beautiful. They even shared common breedings and interbred their dogs within each others line, but they were not partners.

At the age of thirteen, Bob Wallace met and became friends with the "Old Timer", Ben Flannery. Throughout his teens, Bob Wallace owned many outstanding Bulldogs. He later obtained dogs from bloodlines of Dugan's "Pat". The second misconception concerning Bob Wallace was that he bred primarily "Red Nose" dogs. His original was quiet variable in color and were extremely talented dogs. Though these dogs did not show it, they carried a large amount of the "Red Nose" blood. One of the first foundation females of Bob Wallace was the famous Shipley's "Penny". Shipley's "Penny" was a direct descendant of the old Corcoran dogs. Wallace had always considered Corcoran to be one of the great breeders of all time. Other great dogs that are considered part of the foundation of the Wallace dogs were ones such as, Ferguson's "Centipede", Hall's "Searcy Jeff" and the famous Wallace's "Tony". "Tony" was said to be Wallaces' pride and joy. Wallace bred Shipley's "Penny" to "Centipede" and produced these three great dogs, "Stinger" "Scorpion" and "Spider". He later bred "Searcy Jeff" to "Spider" and produced Wallace's "Madam Queen". When he bred "Madam Queen" to "Tony" he produced the ever famous Wallace's "King Cotton". Other famous dogs appear in many of the popular "Old Family Red Nose" dogs of modern times are Wallace's "Red Rustler", "Red Rock" and "Red Rube", as well as the famous producing female Wallace's "Red Raven".

The old advertisements of Bob Wallace during the 1940's clearly reflect the breeding and maintenance of the old Corcoran and Lightner Line of dogs. Most of the advertisements were stated in bold print. During the 1940's Bob Wallace began to look for "Red Nose" dogs to outcross his own with. At this time he felt that his own dogs were getting as tight as could be productively bred. When he began his search he found that the pure "Old Family Red Nose" dogs were almost extinct. Most of the lines were ruined or contaminated through careless breeding. However, he was finally able to locate and obtain seven pure "Red Nose" dogs of high caliber, whose pedigree he could authenticate.

Bob Wallace was a man of character and honesty and often stated that there is no "magic" to the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs, that they are just one good line of many. The "red Nose" dogs have the intelligence, talent and personality to stand on their own merit. Bob Wallace has gone down in history as one of the greatest breeders of his ear. Over the years as a breeder, Bob Wallace was known to sell less than a dozen dogs. He stated that he never sold dogs as a matter of personal principle. The results of his dedication to the breed is still apparent and appreciated in the modern day American Pit Bull Terrier.

This has been a short narrative introduction to the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs and few of the men dedicated to their preservation. It is by far complete or conclusive. Their significance cannot be finalized in a few short paragraphs. Entire volumes could be written on the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs and their place in the history of the American pit Bull Terrier.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

*Story of the Old Family Reds 
Written by Richard F. Stratton *

It has always seemed to me that the good old Pit Bull is a breed that is at once primitive and futuristic. He looks no more out of place in the ancient landscapes of 16th century paintings than he does in the ultra-modern setting. It is beyond my capabilities to imagine an end to him, for every generation seems to supply a nucleus of hard core devotees completely committed to the breed. In any case, you can look into the murky past, and you will find it difficult to discern a beginning place for the breed, and, fortunately, the future seems to threaten no demise either.

Ours is a breed that has a definite mystique. Part of it, no doubt, stems from the fact that it is an old breed and deeply steeped in tradition. Old strains are a particularly fascinating part of this tradition, and the Old Family Red Nose is one of the better-known old strains.

The appearance of the red-nosed dogs always attracts attention, but it takes a little getting used to for some people to consider them truly beautiful. However, no one denies that they radiate "class." Characteristically, a dog of the red-nosed strain has a copper-red nose, red lips, red toe nails, and red or amber eyes. Some think the strain was bred for looks. Others consider any dog that just happens to have a red nose to be pure Old Family Red Nose. It is hoped that the following will dispel such notions.

About the middle of the last century there was a family of pit dogs in Ireland bred and fought chiefly in the counties of Cork and Kerry that were known as the "Old Family." In those days, pedigrees were privately kept and jealously guarded. Purity of the strains was emphasized to the extent that breeders hardly recognized another strain as being the same breed. For that reason all the strains were closely inbred. And whenever you have a closed genetic pool of that type, you are likely to have a slide toward the recessive traits, because the dominants, once discarded, are never recaptured. Since red is recessive to all colors but white, the "Old Family" eventually became the "Old Family Reds." When the dogs began coming to America, many were already beginning to show the red nose.

The "Old Family" dogs found their way to America mainly via immigrants. For example, Jim Corcoran came to this country to fight the world heavyweight champion John L. Sullivan, and stayed to become a Boston policeman. He sent for dogs from his parents back in Ireland, and his importations and expertise as a great breeder have earned him a prominent place in American (Pit) Bull Terrier history. Many other Irish immigrants also sent back to their families to request for dogs, and the "Old Family" and related strains became firmly established in the United States.

At this point, there are several factors that are somewhat confusing to a student of the breed. For one thing, the term "family dogs" was used in two ways: It could mean a strain of dogs that was a family unto itself that was kept by a number of unrelated people in Ireland, or it could refer to a strain of dogs that was kept and preserved through the years by a family group. However, the old Family Reds seem to be of the first category. Another point that arises is that with all these importations from Ireland (and there were importations from other countries, too-including Spain), where do we get off calling our breed the American Bull Terrier! Well. ..that's a point! The breed does not really belong to anyone country or even anyone era! However, I don't believe many people are in favor of changing the name of the breed even though it is not strictly an American breed. For that matter, it is not really a Bull Terrier, either! But the name American (Pit) Bull Terrier has become part of that tradition we were talking about, and I think most of us prefer to keep it as a formal name for the breed.

Back to the Old Family Reds. The first big splash made by the red noses was back around 1900 when the great breeder William J. Lightner, utilizing Old Family Red bloodlines, came up with some red-nosed dogs that really made a name for themselves. Now Lightner once told me that he did not breed for that red-nosed coloration. In fact, he did not even like it and he only put up with it because the individual dogs were of such high quality. Eventually Lightner gave up the red-nosed strain when he moved from Louisiana to Colorado, where he came up with a new strain that consisted of small dark-colored dogs with black noses. He had given up on the other strain because they were running too big for his taste and because he didn't like the red noses.

At this point in our story we come upon a comical, but highly-respected, figure in the personage of Dan McCoy. I have heard old-time dog men from all over the country talk about this man. Apparently, he was an itinerant fry cook and not much of a success in life judged by normal standards, but he didn't care about that. What he did care about were Pit Bulldogs, and he had a wealth of knowledge about the breed. His uncanny ability to make breedings that "clicked" made him a respected breeding consultant and a most welcome guest at any dog man's house-even if he had just dropped off a freight train!

Always with his ear to the ground regarding anything that involved APBT's, McCoy got wind of the fact that an old Frenchman in Louisiana by the name of Bourgeous had preserved the old Lightner red-nosed strain. So he and Bob Hemphill went to that area, and with the aid of Gaboon Trahan of Lafayette, they secured what was left of the dogs. McCoy took his share to the Panhandle of Texas and placed them with his associates L. C. Owens, Arthur Harvey and Buck Moon. He then played a principal role in directing the breedings that were made by these fanciers. And from this enclave came such celebrated dogs as Harvey's Red Devil and Owens (Ferguson's) Centipede. Hemphill eventually kept only dogs of the red-nosed strain. According to Hemphill, it was McCoy who first started using the term "Old Family Red Nose" for the strain.

Another breeder who was almost synonymous with the red-nosed strain was Bob Wallace. However, Bob's basic bloodline was not pure Old Family Red Nose. But in the late 40's he was looking for the red-nosed strain in order to make an "outcross." (Bob was a scrupulously careful breeder who planned his breedings years in advance.) Unfortunately, he found that the strain was nearly gone, most of it having been ruined by careless breedings. He managed to obtain seven pure red-noses of high quality whose pedigrees he could authenticate. The strain was subsequently saved for posterity and in the 1950's became the fashionable strain in Pit Bull circles. In fact, it was Bob Wallace himself who wrote an article in 1953 called "There Is No Magic in Red Noses" in which he tried to put a damper on the overly enthusiastic claims being made by some of the admirers of the strain. No more fervent admirer of the Old Family Reds ever lived than Wallace, but he obviously felt that the strain could stand on its own merits.

Many stains have been crossed with the Old Family Reds at some time in their existence. Consequently, nearly any strain will occasionally throw a red-nosed pup. To many fanciers, these red-nosed individuals are Old Family Red Noses even though the great preponderance of their blood is that of other strains. Sometimes such individuals will fail to measure up and thereby reflect undeserved discredit on the rcd-nosed strain. However, as Wallace said, the red noses should not be considered invincible either. They produce their share of bad ones as well as good ones-just as all strains do.

As a strain, the Old Family Red Nose has several things going for it. First, it is renowned for its gameness. Second, some of the most reputable breeders in all Pit Bull history have contributed to the preservation and development of the strain. People like Lightner, McClintock. Menefee and Wallace, to mention just a few. Finally, as McNolty said in his 30-30 Journal (1967) "Regardless of one's historical perspective, these old amber-eyed, red-nosed, red-toe-nailed, red-coated dogs represent some of the most significant pit bull history and tradition that stands on four legs today."


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1237] :: FERGUSON'S CENTIPEDE


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Those poor dogs, dude i googled the telephone number and narrowed down their location to which part of town they are in... Being in real estate and knowing that area fairly well... they don't have any more back yard than what they are standing in inside those raised kennels.

EDIT: maybe the phone number's wrong???


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

I think I've seen that website posted here before.


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## sammy (Mar 30, 2009)

Thanks for the background on the ofrn dogs Sadie. 
As far as those dogs were concerned, I was impressed that at least he works them. They do seem to have good working ability, (at least according to the pics).

On another note, I thought Camelot dogs did have some ofrn blood......waaaaay back in their pedigrees.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

(SOME) camelot dogs may have some of the Wilder hemphill blood in there pedigree's WAY back when but not enough to consider them OFRN dogs ... The camelot bloodline is an American Bully Bloodline. Every foundation stems from one bloodline or another but after breeding away from the foundation for so long the bloodline is no longer the same.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Good stuff Sadie


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## sammy (Mar 30, 2009)

Sadie, I agree with your in regards to the Camelot-OFRN relationship.

But I'm pretty sure that all Camelot dogs are not American Bullys. Yes, a lot of them are (been crossed with French Mastiffs, English Bulldogs and who knows what else). But some people still have the Camelot dogs that 100% APBT. As far as these dogs still retaining gameness, well that's another story. I guess you can say they make good hog hunting dogs.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I guess it all depends on who your asking IMO an APBT is a game bred dog/game dog. But not everyone is going to agree with that but that Is my take on it. If someone can produce a pedigree of a camelot dog who's bred from game lines and game lines only I will agree that there are some out there. I have never read or heard of camelot dogs being bred for the box


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## sammy (Mar 30, 2009)

Good point.


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## 00 S/C Lightning (Apr 7, 2010)

intreresting article and site indeed. real true working/unting/catchdogs. wow taking down multiple boars. scent dogs followed by catchdogs, i love it. pitbulls doing what they are designed to do in the enviorment they thrive in. i applaud them, good work. helping residents remove neusence animals.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

Beautiful dogs...


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## sammy (Mar 30, 2009)

00 S/C Lightning said:


> intreresting article and site indeed. real true working/unting/catchdogs. wow taking down multiple boars. scent dogs followed by catchdogs, i love it. pitbulls doing what they are designed to do in the enviorment they thrive in. i applaud them, good work. helping residents remove neusence animals.


 Yeah, that's what kind of surprised me. For being as large and thick as they are, they still seem to have good working ability. 
Most of the bully looking dogs out there are so deformed, they look like they're gonna keel over any second.


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

What pics are you guys seeing??? I see E/W, weak pasterns, sway backs, bowed front legs...

I am wondering what their longevity is as far as working ability.


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## sammy (Mar 30, 2009)

Go to the "videos" section. He's put up quite a few vids of his dogs doing wt pull, springpole, etc.


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## 00 S/C Lightning (Apr 7, 2010)

i am merely commenting on the job they are performing. to be able to take down a wild boar/pig is impressive. just as taking down a bull/bear. it takes alot of strength, endurance and willpower. do they have traits that are not of the liking that we see regularly, absolutly. but their build supports/designs for the work they are doing


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

00 S/C Lightning said:


> i am merely commenting on the job they are performing. to be able to take down a wild boar/pig is impressive. just as taking down a bull/bear. it takes alot of strength, endurance and willpower. do they have traits that are not of the liking that we see regularly, absolutly. but their build supports/designs for the work they are doing


I'm not commenting on what they are doing now, I'm saying they have a very short lifetime of work. E/W and weak pasterns as bad as those dogs have them will equal a very painful retirement after a short career. Why spend time training a dog to work only to retire it 3 years later. I have no problem with bullies, my girl was a bully, but I'll tell you from an EB background that those dogs will have problems in a short amount of time if they are participating in high impact work. Plus if I was looking to buy a working dog, I would not buy their pups because of the health problems the parents exhibit. Wouldn't it be smarter to train a dog and put time into a dog that could have a 12+ year career instead of a 5 year or less career? Would those dogs make good pets, yes, probably. Could they they do well in sports, sure. If you were looking to add to a working line would it be in your best interest to choose a dog with huge structural faults, no. You can find working bullies with good structure that have the potential to do just as well, but will be able to do it for longer.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I am not going to comment on the dogs themselves because people have their own idea's as to what looks good and what doesn't. I will say that when breeding working dogs one must take into account overall structure and athletic ability to suit the role as such. Working dogs have a standard anytime your breeding away from that standard your not doing any justice for the dogs being bred. Any dog can be trained to pull a cart or to do like activities but if the dog is structurally not up to par it put's a strain internally on the animals internal organs, muscles, and bones over time that the human eye cannot see. When we refer to athletes we don't associate an athlete with being obese, deformed, and out of shape. Athletes are typically in tip top shape with excellent stamina, agility, and endurance the more weight on your body the harder your heart has to pump and work to compensate for that extra weight. The heart is one of those muscles you don't want to overwork. We can't just ignore sound structure for the sake of breeding a BIG package. When that happens you end up with a lot of faults and health problems and that's not ok IMO.


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## jayandlacy (Sep 21, 2009)

if you watch the videos you can see the property, there is a huge pen for them all to run around in...idk.


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## bigironmike (Jun 28, 2009)

Sadie said:


> I guess it all depends on who your asking IMO an APBT is a game bred dog/game dog. But not everyone is going to agree with that but that Is my take on it. If someone can produce a pedigree of a camelot dog who's bred from game lines and game lines only I will agree that there are some out there. I have never read or heard of camelot dogs being bred for the box


If you have never heard about Camelot's [] days, boy you ain't looked hard enough, lol. Art put them dogs thru hell. I wonder if there are still any of those yard vids floatin around. If anybody has one, keep it to yourself, cuz that will get ya locked up real quick.

The dogs on the site in question are only partly Cam dogs. And yep, there are Cam dogs with Wilder/Clouse/Sarona blood right up close in the ped.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

bigironmike said:


> If you have never heard about Camelot's [] days, boy you ain't looked hard enough, lol. Art put them dogs thru hell. I wonder if there are still any of those yard vids floatin around. If anybody has one, keep it to yourself, cuz that will get ya locked up real quick.
> 
> The dogs on the site in question are only partly Cam dogs. And yep, there are Cam dogs with Wilder/Clouse/Sarona blood right up close in the ped.


I have seen a lot of game dog pedigree's and have studied many bloodlines and the dogs behind them and NEVER have I seen a pedigree with camelot box dogs in it. Until you can produce a pedigree showing otherwise I stand firm that camelot dogs are no where near box dogs.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

FloorCandy said:


> I'm not commenting on what they are doing now, I'm saying they have a very short lifetime of work. E/W and weak pasterns as bad as those dogs have them will equal a very painful retirement after a short career. Why spend time training a dog to work only to retire it 3 years later. I have no problem with bullies, my girl was a bully, but I'll tell you from an EB background that those dogs will have problems in a short amount of time if they are participating in high impact work. Plus if I was looking to buy a working dog, I would not buy their pups because of the health problems the parents exhibit. Wouldn't it be smarter to train a dog and put time into a dog that could have a 12+ year career instead of a 5 year or less career? Would those dogs make good pets, yes, probably. Could they they do well in sports, sure. If you were looking to add to a working line would it be in your best interest to choose a dog with huge structural faults, no. You can find working bullies with good structure that have the potential to do just as well, but will be able to do it for longer.


:goodpost:


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## bigironmike (Jun 28, 2009)

Sadie said:


> I have seen a lot of game dog pedigree's and have studied many bloodlines and the dogs behind them and NEVER have I seen a pedigree with camelot box dogs in it. Until you can produce a pedigree showing otherwise I stand firm that camelot dogs are no where near box dogs.


Just because you are unaware of it doesn't mean it's not true. Where you stand is irrelevant to the facts. I cant remember the name of the damn kennel right now, but I know they have a 2x winning male, and 2 1x winning bitches I believe. I won't go searching for it cuz I have better things to do, but if I do come across it, I will put up the kennel/ped info.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Well ,now you pretty much got to.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

short on info

__________________


__________________


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

bigironmike said:


> Just because you are unaware of it doesn't mean it's not true. Where you stand is irrelevant to the facts. I cant remember the name of the damn kennel right now, but I know they have a 2x winning male, and 2 1x winning bitches I believe. I won't go searching for it cuz I have better things to do, but if I do come across it, I will put up the kennel/ped info.


Bigironmike .. One or two dogs who win a match does NOT make an entire bloodline a Game line generations of proven dogs within a bloodline do ... Some strains of Camelot have potential for working ability but the Majority are classic UKC bully show line dogs . SOME of the older camelot strain as I stated before stemmed from the wilder Hemphil stuff. If your talking about Jack Boot's 2xw well that's one proclaimed match that does NOT make the Camelot bloodline GAME these dogs were NEVER bred to be box dogs to begin with any serious dog man/old timer or fancier would never consider these dogs game or game bred. This must be the dog your speaking of? Since you didn't have the time to find him I do. I don't like to just throw out information claiming it be factual without having proof to back up my claims.

I want to add this dog was part of the foundation of the camelot bloodline MANY bully bloodlines foundation dogs used game dogs in the beginning this is no surprise or something new. That in no way shape or form makes an entire bloodline GAME.

You start posting multiple generations of Camelot Game Bred/Game dog pedigree's up and I will be inclined to agree with you ... I promise you that you won't be able to produce them 

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [140358] :: RED HOT'S JACK BOOTS

And I wouldn't consider Jack Boot's a Camelot dog either look at his pedigree


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## bigironmike (Jun 28, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Bigironmike .. One or two dogs who win a match does NOT make an entire bloodline GAME generations of proven dogs within a bloodline do ... Some strains of Camelot have potential for working ability but the Majority are classic UKC bully show line dogs . SOME of the older camelot strain as I stated before stemmed from the wilder Hemphil stuff. If your talking about Jack Boot's 2xw well that's one proclaimed match that does NOT make the Camelot bloodline GAME these dogs were NEVER bred to be box dogs to begin with any serious dog man/old timer or fancier would never consider these dogs game or game bred. This must be the dog your speaking of? Since you didn't have the time to find him I do. I don't like to just throw out information claiming it be factual without having proof to back up my claims.
> 
> I want to add this dog was part of the foundation of the camelot bloodline MANY bully bloodlines foundation dogs used game dogs in the beginning this is no surprise or something new. That in no way shape or form makes an entire bloodline GAME.
> 
> ...


Jack Boots is not the dog I am referring to. I don't think anyone on this post has said that the entire bloodline is game. I have no idea why you are even arguing a point that no on has mentioned.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

bigironmike said:


> If you have never heard about Camelot's [] days, boy you ain't looked hard enough, lol. Art put them dogs thru hell..


So exactly what did you mean by this if you weren't implying that the camelot dogs had it's BOX days? If you weren't trying to say the camelot dogs were bred for the box at one point what were you trying to say in this statement?


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

Every Pitbull or Bully goes back to game lines. I'm glad the dogs are being bred for a purpose and not just looks. Watching Moose in the video hit the tire was kind of week. Didn't show the hard drive I like!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Using game dogs as foundation dogs for a bloodline is one thing but saying that camelot dogs had their box days is another .. I am trying to find out what Mike meant by that statement because I took it as camelot dogs were bred for the box at least at one point. Which is not true.


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## bigironmike (Jun 28, 2009)

In the early day, those first few generations of Art's all saw the box as well as catch work and bite work. Hell, they show it all on the damn vid. It's common knowledge he was breeding for a game dog with a lil extra size on it, not the damn 100 pound sloppy crap you see now that is so popular. There are a lot of damn yards out there with pure Cam stuff that is maybe 60 pounds tops. I think the 2x winning male had a Hispanic-type name and I believe the 1x winning females are either his sisters or daughters.........can't remember off the top of my head, but I think the sisters names rhyme or are pretty similar. I found it while just checkin some peds online, the info is on there, yall can do the same and find it I am sure.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

All I can say is show them pedigree's if you can produce them. Doesn't sound like Art's goal was to produce game dogs maybe working dogs but def not game dogs he would have to be breeding for gameness and testing his dogs for more than just a few generations to reach that goal. I have asked some dogger friends of mine just to clarify what I pretty much already knew and they all laughed and said NO way in hell are those dogs game nor did they have historical box days. So what you call common knowledge I can't seem to find anything remotely close to being true other than the foundation dogs being used were game dogs from the wilder hemphil stuff but that does not mean the camelot dogs had it's box days. I don't mess with the line never would not my kind of dog. So we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject. Unless your willing to take the time to prove your argument by producing some facts to back up what your saying.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

bigironmike said:


> In the early day, those first few generations of Art's all saw the box as well as catch work and bite work. Hell, they show it all on the damn vid. It's common knowledge he was breeding for a game dog with a lil extra size on it, not the damn 100 pound sloppy crap you see now that is so popular. There are a lot of damn yards out there with pure Cam stuff that is maybe 60 pounds tops. I think the 2x winning male had a Hispanic-type name and I believe the 1x winning females are either his sisters or daughters.........can't remember off the top of my head, but I think the sisters names rhyme or are pretty similar. I found it while just checkin some peds online, the info is on there, yall can do the same and find it I am sure.


Yeah without Names of the dog's I can't just go finding these dogs your speaking about. There are hundred's and thousand's of pedgiree's out there . I would need name's of parent's or siblings at least to be able to find these dogs. Your not giving me much to work with and 1 or 2 dogs is not going to make a difference one way or another still doesn't prove anything or say anything about the camelot dogs having their box days.

I have seen some of the older strains of camelot dogs who were bred within the APBT standard. But many of them now a days look just like what's on this guys website posted on this thread.


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## bigironmike (Jun 28, 2009)

No one out there knows everything about everything, yourself included. Stop beating yourself up and switch to decaf.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

bigironmike said:


> No one out there knows everything about everything, yourself included. Stop beating yourself up and switch to decaf.


it's not about knowin with pits.
it's about the semantics that was used as a ruse to trick other dogmen.
eventually it always came out when dogs were bred spuriously and gamed to outclass or outmatch another dog,and folks don't realize it but often it was the dogs proving up the reps of the owners.
what always ended up happening was someone would notice characteristics of the dogs looks,size,head,color,stature etc. etc. then they'd start rattlin with their compatriots.
then some jacknut would jump in the car and ride out to someones yard,then another,then ask about this and that dog,and where the pups came from etc. etc.
folks talk alot of smack about the old guys,yet so many of them touched handled and bred warriors,alot more than anyone within the lsat 10-maybe 20 years.
it's become so covert that some guys nowadays won't go to another yard for fear of someone seein them.
folks today have all good reasons for being secretive about their associations etc.
and some of those who get caught,get ratted on by another dog owner.
yes,it happens.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

bigironmike said:


> No one out there knows everything about everything, yourself included. Stop beating yourself up and switch to decaf.


Know one here claims to know everything but it's really annoying when people start making stuff up and passing off opinions as facts without having one ounce of proof to back up anything they are saying. You go to a forum like game dog and start talking about camelot box dogs and you'll get your tail handed to you on a silver platter I invite you to try to start such an argument over there. There is a thing called historical facts and then there are opinions, and last but not least people who have no clue as to what they are talking about and just make stuff up to justify their foolish beliefs. The whole point is mike if you had proof you wouldn't be so hesitant to produce these pedigree's your speaking of I told you Your never going to find them because they don't exist unless someone hung papers which happens all the time but camelot dogs never had it's box days and you won't ever convince me of that. Now you can keep trying to argue back and fourth about this nonsense or you can produce FACTS to back up what your saying. Other than that I have nothing else to say to you on the matter because I know what your saying is absolutely false. So I left it at an agree to disagree you want to keep this going your going to have to do with someone who will entertain you because frankly you haven't given me enough of an argument to continue on. Camelot dog's are bully/bandogge's some are bred to have working potential but they are NOT apbt's older strains used some wilder/hephill stuff for the foundation of the line but they never were bred for the box nor did these dogs have it's box days. That's my stance on it take it or leave it.


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## bigironmike (Jun 28, 2009)

Mike,
You cant use that language on the public forums. Take a deep breath and continue the discussion like adults. Im here to learn and if you have something to share, then share.


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## FamilyLinePits (May 18, 2010)

Bigironmike, That was completely uncalled for. This is a friendly forum, One that I would hope my kids could use as reference if needed. No one resorted the the attitude that you did, Even though Sadie may have stated her point with a bit more "ummph!" than needed, but at least she did so semi-respectfully. 

Bigironmike, Remember what you said, Not everyone knows everything about everything...that includes you as well. This forum is a compilation of minds that can work together to gather some of the best information about pit bulls on the web. No one single mind can offer all this info, So we must think together as a group. All Sadie asked was for you to offer proof of your statements that you are passing off as fact. Thats all, Either offer proof, Or back down...No need for the attitude and certainly no need for the language.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

TWO MEN ENTER,ONE MAN LEAVES!!!!

OOH I so love that movie.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LOL ... You are a funny character Mike you are the one making all these claims but don't have one ounce of proof to back up what your saying so who looks like the idiot now? Like I said show them ped's it's been about 3 weeks now if you can't produce the proof shut that trap. But don't try to argue with me about your opinions and claim them to be facts if your not going to provide any proof to your claims. I happen to own game bred dogs so yeah I do know something about them ... I also have friends in low places who know more about these dogs than me and you put together  so I don't just speak out my a** to sound good when I am in doubt or don't know something I call my mentor's and I ask for help. I don't get mad and cry like a baby when someone proves me wrong you can't ever learn if you think you already know everything and have all the answer's. I have given you every bit of opportunity to prove your case even said I would agree with you if you could do so and you have yet to show me anything to back up what your saying.

2 of my dogs one is heavy jeep and the other heavy redboy so yeah I do know something about those bloodlines and the dog's behind them  The people I deal with and know who are into game dogs don't even discuss this bloodline why? Because it's not a line of dog's that's relevant to fancier's and dog men they wouldn't ever breed or use this line for anything. You are more than entitled to believe whatever you want to about this bloodline but don't expect everyone else to agree with it.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175576] :: AKA X FINALE

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [325416] :: BOZACK X SUGAR

Ps if you want to continue this drama feel free to PM me but let's not make the mods work any harder to clean up foolishness ... If you can't argue the post and be civilized than PM and we can handle this off the board. I am not going to further respond to you anymore on this thread unless your willing to be civilized and argue respectfully.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

william williamson said:


> TWO MEN ENTER,ONE MAN LEAVES!!!!
> 
> OOH I so love that movie.


Yes, we are in the Thunderdome but "We don't need another hero" LOL!!!
Good flick


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## Dreamcatcher (Oct 7, 2010)

I wouldn't really look at those dogs as weight pullers. 2 things: how is their breathing with chests as wide as that? Plus their legs look way too bully to pull the sport off. IMO


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## sammy (Mar 30, 2009)

Dreamcatcher said:


> I wouldn't really look at those dogs as weight pullers. 2 things: how is their breathing with chests as wide as that? Plus their legs look way too bully to pull the sport off. IMO


 There are several videos on that website showing the dogs pulling. They look like they're doing a pretty good job too. 
Personally, I think it's good that those dogs are actually being used for work like hog catch and weight pull. Compare that to 99.9% of kennels out there with similar looking dogs that aren't doing squat.


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## dday (Oct 5, 2010)

Sadie said:


> LOL ... You are a funny character Mike you are the one making all these claims but don't have one ounce of proof to back up what your saying so who looks like the idiot now? Like I said show them ped's it's been about 3 weeks now if you can't produce the proof shut that trap. But don't try to argue with me about your opinions and claim them to be facts if your not going to provide any proof to your claims. I happen to own game bred dogs so yeah I do know something about them ... I also have friends in low places who know more about these dogs than me and you put together  so I don't just speak out my a** to sound good when I am in doubt or don't know something I call my mentor's and I ask for help. I don't get mad and cry like a baby when someone proves me wrong you can't ever learn if you think you already know everything and have all the answer's. I have given you every bit of opportunity to prove your case even said I would agree with you if you could do so and you have yet to show me anything to back up what your saying.
> 
> 2 of my dogs one is heavy jeep and the other heavy redboy so yeah I do know something about those bloodlines and the dog's behind them  The people I deal with and know who are into game dogs don't even discuss this bloodline why? Because it's not a line of dog's that's relevant to fancier's and dog men they wouldn't ever breed or use this line for anything. You are more than entitled to believe whatever you want to about this bloodline but don't expect everyone else to agree with it.
> 
> ...


Sadie; good looking pups, good looking peds.
DDAY


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks Dday!!!


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