# american pitbull vs.american staffordshire terri



## scrappyjoe20 (Apr 17, 2009)

can yall give me traits and any other details that separte the pitbull from the staffordshire or are they pretty much the same? thanks for your comments


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

No they are not the same at all. AST's were bred from APBT's but have now become their own breed with years of selective breeding. AST's are larger heavy bodied dogs with a softer temperament. While they still can be DA you tend to see them more docile. AST's also lack the drive of an APBT since they have been bred for show for so many years.
Let me find a few threads on this and I will post them for you.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

You might want to do a quick search of the forums. This has been covered a few times. Also the standards for UKC, ADBA and then AKC for the AmStaff are the best place to look:
American Pit Bull Terrier Network Pit Bull Encyclopedia A to Z about the APBT

That should help you understand better...

See you around the forum


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

Here is a link....

http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/14890-american-pit-bull-terrier-vs-staffordshire.html


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

LOL we posted right about the same time


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

It is very complicated,hopefully someone has the desire to answer this one and do it right.
In short the apbt is a performance bred dog,the amstaff a show dog.
But the amstaff can be registered as a apbt by the ukc or adba sooooo....
The true american pitbull terrier is a game bred dog with no amstaff blood added even though staff/pit crosses are registered as pure bred apbts.
As well the apbt can not be registered as a amstaff by the akc or any registry that maters,for this breed the ukc,adba,and for the staff the akc.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-...comparison-top-winning-ukc-akc-adba-dogs.html


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

I'll just add a few pointers:

-A Staff may not have the drive of a APBT, but they have enough drive to kill most non pits.

-If one does, it will be labelled a pit.

-The workaround 20 years ago by calling a pit bull a staffordshire terrier doesn't work with the general public anymore.

-Treat it as a dog that can kill another dog quickly when you are out in public, i.e; keep it on a leash.

-Even if I went staff, I would go towards a smaller one. I'm just a firm believer that the larger people bred for our dogs, the more they got away from our dogs. No offense meant to the people with large dogs.

-


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Oldskool Brent said:


> -Even if I went staff, I would go towards a smaller one. I'm just a firm believer that the larger people bred for our dogs, the more they got away from our dogs. No offense meant to the people with large dogs.
> -


Can you elaborate on this statement?
I'd like to add that in areas were the apbt is outlawed but the staff is not,such as some places in Europe you'll find much more athletic staffs.
The problem with the akc staff is that it is bred for looks alone,when people breed and select for performance within the breed they get it.
Amstaffs are cool for this reason,they haven't been crossed with other breeds like the ukc pitter/staff bully dog,so usually you get what is on the papers without the grey area found within the ukc bobble head dogs that have a little bulldog here and a little mastiff there weather American bully or not or at least it is speculated in many lines which just puts a cloud of confusion and mistrust over the line that may or may not have been tampered with.


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

cane76 said:


> Can you elaborate on this statement?
> I'd like to add that in areas were the apbt is outlawed but the staff is not,such as some places in Europe you'll find much more athletic staffs.
> The problem with the akc staff is that it is bred for looks alone,when people breed and select for performance within the breed they get it.
> Amstaffs are cool for this reason,they haven't been crossed with other breeds like the ukc pitter/staff bully dog,so usually you get what is on the papers without the grey area found within the ukc bobble head dogs that have a little bulldog here and a little mastiff there weather American bully or not or at least it is speculated in many lines which just puts a cloud of confusion and mistrust over the line that may or may not have been tampered with.


Actually, I reread my own statement and I'm off on that one. Staffs were a good 10-20 pounds heavier than the APBT even back in the day. I'm just saying that even if I got a staff I would get one that looks closer to a game bred pit, lol. Basically I always go back to that, my thought pattern is like a damned broken record. How about I say shoot for one under 75 pounds and leave it at that?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Thats cool,and rare nowadays,for me size dont mean much,i'll take the dog with the most heart and the form to back it up no matter the size,in other words i wont select a small dog over a large one that is a better working specimen,even if both are great dogs.
Selecting for size,weather small or large is wrong in my opinion unless dogs are of equal caliber,then it just comes down to prefrence.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Well a well bred AST is hard to find. One that is not over done and not a pitterstaff. I will be getting an AST by the end of the year or beginning of next year. Yes you all heard it here first. Performance knls will be adding an AST to our kennel mainly so I can get back into the AKC show ring. No I will not be breeding any AST's this will strictly be a show dog and I may even do performance events if the dogs drive is there. This is a great friend of mine who has the best AST's I know!
http://www.itsmysite.com/cgi-bin/itsmy/go.exe?page=4&domain=1&webdir=kskennels


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## PBN (Aug 1, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Well a well bred AST is hard to find. One that is not over done and not a pitterstaff. I will be getting an AST by the end of the year or beginning of next year. Yes you all heard it here first. Performance knls will be adding an AST to our kennel mainly so I can get back into the AKC show ring. No I will not be breeding any AST's this will strictly be a show dog and I may even do performance events if the dogs drive is there. This is a great friend of mine who has the best AST's I know!
> http://www.itsmysite.com/cgi-bin/itsmy/go.exe?page=4&domain=1&webdir=kskennels


Those dogs look amazing. :woof:


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

To lisa from performance,
First, I noticed you own a lot of blue dogs, so, are your dogs amstaff crosses or ambully crosses? Just curious.
Second, I have owned and worked both amstaffs and pits(gamebred, and pet bred). I would have to say that many pure pits are actually more handler soft than the amstaffs that I have worked. Also, worldwide there are way more amstaff and amstaff crosses that are schutzhund titled that pure pitbulls. Being that schutzhund seems to be your main interest lately. I thought you should know that.
Also as far as health-wise. There are so few people "healthtesting" the APBT it is hard to argue, nowadays, that they are healthier. There are way more amstaff breeders doing hips, hearts, elbows, ect... than any of the APBT breeders. 
In my opinion, it is very hard to find a true gamebred pit bull that can actually work in sports like schutzhund, to my standards. 
The reason I am bringing up these points, about amstaffs vs. pit bull, is that in a few of your posts it sounds to me as if you are downing the amstaff, regarding working ability.


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## Julie K (Oct 15, 2008)

Thank you, Howard.
Julie K


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Yeah Lisa what's up with your blue ambully's?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> To lisa from performance,
> First, I noticed you own a lot of blue dogs, so, are your dogs amstaff crosses or ambully crosses? Just curious.
> Second, I have owned and worked both amstaffs and pits(gamebred, and pet bred). I would have to say that many pure pits are actually more handler soft than the amstaffs that I have worked. Also, worldwide there are way more amstaff and amstaff crosses that are schutzhund titled that pure pitbulls. Being that schutzhund seems to be your main interest lately. I thought you should know that.
> Also as far as health-wise. There are so few people "healthtesting" the APBT it is hard to argue, nowadays, that they are healthier. There are way more amstaff breeders doing hips, hearts, elbows, ect... than any of the APBT breeders.
> ...


I know about AST and pitterstaffs that have SCH titles and you see many of these big dogs doing things like PSA, SCH, and Ring. Many of the ones I have seen I am not too impressed with but there are some nice ones out there. drive does not carry into everything and I always look at the big picture. There are some nice AST and Pitterstaffs that come from working lines but the breeds as a whole are nothing but show dogs with little drive compare to most APBT's. 
Don't think you are educating me by "letting me know" anything in that respect. A dog can look great in bite work or sports like PSA but when you look at other parts of the picture it gets sloppy. That is one of the reasons I just sold Typhoon. Great in the bite work, ok in everything else, Ob, Tr, AG, and WP. I want a great all around dog and my choice is gamebred dogs. You like the pitterstaffs and AST. Nothing wrong with that that is just our opinion.
When I look at a dog I don't just compare him to the breed I compare him to other breeds in the sport. I don't want the best APBT I want a dog who can be competitive with other breeds and that is why when I look at drive "ok" isn't good enough I want a little more. That is why I like the Gamebred dogs and I have had many types of APBT's, pitterstaffs, AST and other breeds here for training so do not think I am lacking in experience. 
Typhoon is a pitterstaff from her dam's ped. And my other dogs are not bullies or pitterstaffs. (Chinaman, Bolio) And yes I do down the average AST's working ability and I prefer using gamebred dogs for working dogs. It seems like we have had opposite experience while training working dogs.
The great thing about a thread like this is it is all opinions. You and I disagree on the working ability of the dogs but it is all an opinion.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> Yeah Lisa what's up with your blue ambully's?


They are RE, can't you tell?


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

Hi Lisa,
Don't get me wrong.... I love both the APBTs(gamebred, pet bred show bred) and amstaffs, I have titled both in multiple venues, not just SchH. I am working a nice gamebred dog right now in SchH. I think he going to be a good one. I have never said that the Amstaff is better, but I have read a few of your posts lately(not just this one), where you mentioned athletic ability and working drive short-coming of the ASTs.

Just curious though, are you trying to say that some of your blue dogs are all gamebred (chinaman/bolio)? Please clarify this... I am a big fan of the Chinaman, and love the garner stuff. I had sister to garner's CH Dolly, and brother, my uncle bred her, and I also have bought dogs from Garner. I am also very familiar with the Bolio line, I have never in 25 years seen a blue one, of either.

Regarding being well rounded, how many different working titles besides agility have you earned on your pitterstaffs vs. your gamedogs? Also, how many schutzhund, tracking and weighpull titles have you earned, on your gamedogs vs. your pitterstaffs?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

My dogs peds are not online but if you PM I will give you more info, you say some of my blue dogs..... I only have 2. If you would like to see my titles you can go to my site, what is your point? When I am as old as you I hope to have accomplished most of what you have. (not trying to be rude but you were titling dogs when I was 10 years old. you have a big head start  ) No doubt you have more titles than my kennel, and I think that is great. We may not agree or even like each other but if you want to pick me apart start your own thread. Your last few posts have nothing to do with this thread stay OT.


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

Oh, I must of been looking at the old site where you had 3 blue males, and two blue females. I only seen one gamebred dog, the one with short cropped ears. Caragan/Larsan/kramer stuff is beautiful, but they are UKC showlines, and as many generations of show dogs, as most amstaff lines. Great looking dogs though. 
I am not trying to fight with you, I like what your a trying to do with your dogs. However, you post more than anyone on the board, and so many people look up to you, and I have read at least 4 posts where you spoke derogatory about the amstaffs, and pitterstaffs. I wanted to post my opinion between the two, so people could have another view. 
My first two SchH dogs were gamebred pits, but not tightly linebred. Then I had a couple of staffs that I also titled. Then I had some mixxes of the two. There were good dogs in both. I would have to say that both have their good qualities, and their negative. I have owned gamedogs for almost 25 years, I rarely breed them, and never posted their pedigrees until lately. Honestly, many hard core gamedogs, do not have the confidence and nerve to excel at sport work. The average newbie would almost be better off with a pitterstaff or amstaff, for their first working dog, as it is not as hard to find one. 
I really don't know how you can give an honest opinion how on an amstaff is versus a pitbull, when you have never taken one to a high level.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I have worked with my share of AST and pitterstaffs and I would not want to pursue them with high titles. Therefor I have non in my kennel. Like I said I sold my pitterstaff because of I did not like what I saw in the year I worked her. I think it is good for you to post your opinion since you have titled so many in the past. You are right, I have none with high titles because the ones I worked with did not appeal to me to continue further. I have also trained many for clients and did not like what I saw.
My Caragans dogs are my little squishy babies! I will have to say Crush is going to be good at agility. She needs to mature a bit she is a spaz!
We can agree to disagree and move on 
We have 7 gamebred dogs in my house the rest are pet or show dogs. I have not had problems with nerves on my gamebred dogs. I guess we both have had different experiences with the breed.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

Am I the only one baffled? 
You all lost me. :rofl:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Sorry for getting OT, we had a difference of op and now it is over


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Sorry for getting OT, we had a difference of op and now it is over


I have no problems with topics going OT but it helps when it is in English. :rofl:

APBT, AmStaff, PitterStaff, etc etc. It get's confusing. 
We need a 'Sticky' with photos and a short history of all the Bully breeds for reference. That would be very helpful I think. :thumbsup:


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

So how about them Amstaffs? lol 

I used to think they were pretty much the same breed, the APBT and the Amstaff. I mean they do share the same DNA. But the more I look at Amstaff's these days, they do look different. More squared off, less athletic. Beautiful dogs no doubt. But I've been in love with game style dogs since I saw one.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> Honestly, many hard core gamedogs, do not have the confidence and nerve to excel at sport work.


Why do you say that? Just curious.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

this is a good thread. nice debate, but dont take everything so seriously!!!! my r.e. dog has no drive. i'll be the first to admit that. FAR away from game dogs. but hes a pet so who the hell cares haha  love u guys, ---shane


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

nice posting howard


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

To Buzzhunter,
As we all know the APBT was not bred for schutzhund, nor manwork. Because of this, many can be handler soft, whcih is great in the [], but can cause problems when doing competitive training. A handler soft dog, will not take corrections well, and may break down or refuse to work. Also,many gamedog breeders keep their dogs in the country, and do not handle the pups as much as a pet person, so the social skills are not there. This is more environmental thing rather than genetic.

Also, I have been to yards of experienced dogmen, where the dogs are rolling over on their chain and peeing. They don't think nothing of it, because the dogs temperament is not aggressive. However, this type behavior, can show shyness, or lack of nerve, and then is linebred on it.

I do not want people on here to think I do not like gamebred dogs, I love them and have owned them for many years, and my family before me. I have some very well bred fastlane dogs, and I feel lucky to have one right now, that seems to be working quality. My uncle is one of the oldest dogmen left in the Carolinas, so I have seen some and been around the some of best. In fact, he is in crenshaws book.

The best thing you can do if looking for a gamedog for working, is go pick it out yourself. Go look at the whole litter, and pick the most outgoing pup, that wants to be with you. Also, check for noise sensitivity. For instance, drop your keys or something else loud, near the pups, stay away from anything that is afraid. I don't look for prey drive as a pup, as it seems to come with the pits. I care more about confidence, and nerve.


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> To Buzzhunter,
> As we all know the APBT was not bred for schutzhund, nor manwork. Because of this, many can be handler soft, whcih is great in the [], but can cause problems when doing competitive training. A handler soft dog, will not take corrections well, and may break down or refuse to work. Also,many gamedog breeders keep their dogs in the country, and do not handle the pups as much as a pet person, so the social skills are not there. This is more environmental thing rather than genetic.
> 
> Also, I have been to yards of experienced dogmen, where the dogs are rolling over on their chain and peeing. They don't think nothing of it, because the dogs temperament is not aggressive. However, this type behavior, can show shyness, or lack of nerve, and then is linebred on it.
> ...


I get what your saying, sounds like good reasoning.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> To Buzzhunter,
> As we all know the APBT was not bred for schutzhund, nor manwork. Because of this, many can be handler soft, whcih is great in the [], but can cause problems when doing competitive training. A handler soft dog, will not take corrections well, and may break down or refuse to work. Also,many gamedog breeders keep their dogs in the country, and do not handle the pups as much as a pet person, so the social skills are not there. This is more environmental thing rather than genetic.
> 
> Also, I have been to yards of experienced dogmen, where the dogs are rolling over on their chain and peeing. They don't think nothing of it, because the dogs temperament is not aggressive. However, this type behavior, can show shyness, or lack of nerve, and then is linebred on it.
> ...


I agree with your logic 100% just not sure I'd call it a lack of nerve or confidence. Good post though.


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## los44 (Jun 1, 2008)

Great post howard! Love the way you think


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