# need some help ... dang byb's



## Lvis

im so exhausted educating the young people that think there breeders and know everything. Im on another off topic where everyboody and there mother breed pits and under the ''for sale'' forums there were pits 4/s and people wanting to stud there dogs for $$. After harassing moderators they made it a rule ''no selling animals'' 

Now my question is does anybody have a link or something i can copy and paste about the differances between a byb and a legit breeder and why byb is causing such a big problem........im tired of explaining. Even after infractions are givin out people still post there breedings ugghh

thanks


----------



## BittersweetEmbrace

Backyard Breeder vs Reputable Breeder ???


----------



## william williamson

that looks like A good reference.
and to many folks today,anyone who bred pits 20-30-50 years ago was A BYB.LOL


----------



## coppermare

william williamson said:


> that looks like A good reference.
> and to many folks today,anyone who bred pits 20-30-50 years ago was A BYB.LOL


:rofl::clap:
I went to another site since it was a lot of "bully" and "bloodlines" that I'd be interested in and the whole site is nothing but adds for studs,bitches and puppies...I mean, it should just be a breeders site, nothing more of interest seems to be there.


----------



## Lvis

im really starting to dislike all bully breeders. they have new litters every week and rarelly if none of them health test.

sure bullies look nice but i dont see me supporting there breeders habits. If i ever want a bully id just go get a thick amstaff from a reputable breeder


----------



## angelbaby

Lvis said:


> im really starting to dislike all bully breeders. they have new litters every week and rarelly if none of them health test.
> 
> sure bullies look nice but i dont see me supporting there breeders habits. If i ever want a bully id just go get a thick amstaff from a reputable breeder


I think thats a rude remark I know of a bully breeder who does health test his dogs and he hasnt had a breeding since last year he isnt popping them off one after the other as you seem to think. if your gonna make this remark about BULLY breeders then maybe you should make those comments about alot of other breeds as well . BYB breed EVERY breed toys, game, bull everything. the ABKC is trying to educate people and get reputable bully breeders out there they arent all as you seem to think they are.


----------



## Lvis

angelbaby said:


> I think thats a rude remark I know of a bully breeder who does health test his dogs and he hasnt had a breeding since last year he isnt popping them off one after the other as you seem to think. if your gonna make this remark about BULLY breeders then maybe you should make those comments about alot of other breeds as well . BYB breed EVERY breed toys, game, bull everything. the ABKC is trying to educate people and get reputable bully breeders out there they arent all as you seem to think they are.


didnt want to come off rude but the websites 'i see' arent the most impressive i only saw 2 that claimed they health test

pm me some sites id take a look


----------



## MISSAPBT

I would have to truthfully say about 90% - 95% of breeding in New Zealand are BYB


----------



## angelbaby

the one i know doesnt use a website he is strictly word of mouth , I was just commenting that he shouldnt say all bully breeders are BYB and dont health test i think thats a little harsh , i had no problem with what you were saying but to say he wouldnt get a bully because all the breeders are crap is wrong there are a few and I guess you have to look for them. trust me I know of bad ones as well and learning to look for the good ones they are out there.


----------



## william williamson

bullys are no different than A peekapoo,or A labradoodle,or pompoo.
they wreak of designer,and serve gainfully/monetarily under the moniker of the APBT.
ya'll can jump and scream all you want.
I can disprove it as A breed,let alone A quality breed long before anyone can prove different.
lets start with the inception of the registry,then the purity of the blood by DNA.
like MR. L. Colby said in an interview,this was cut and pasted from another thread.
*Me: what is your input on this new breed called bullys? and how would you say your dogs stack up against them? 
Mr. Colby: Bullies are ridculous. They are not a breed. Whoever started this is nor a bonefide dogman, just looking to make a fast buck from some uninformed person who is looking for the "macho" look. APBTs are supposed to be athletes. A Colby dog, pound for pound, will whip them. You choose the sport.!!!*
I've always felt this way,but then,I'm old dog bound.


----------



## MISSAPBT

:goodpost:

Spot on Mr Colby


----------



## angelbaby

Not even gonna argue with idiots on here who dont like a certain breed good for you for whatever you like but to dis a breed because you dont care for it is stupid. There is a huge debate over bullys vs ABPT but seriously If you truely loved dogs you would try to unite as a force to fight all the BSL , BYB that affect both these breeds but instead you "old dog men" want to argue and put down other peoples choices there are enough BS that we all have to put up with in the world owning these dogs we really dont need the boundarys you guys create among the bully/APBT world. your choice of dog may not be my cup of tea but I would put my a$$ on the line to protect that dog because I care about the dogs. if you think the bully breeders are the only ones doing things unethical out there and BYB then you seriously need to open your eyes I see it APBT, american bulldogs, bullys, poodles , everything open up your classifieds in your paper. Dont turn this into a bully breeder hater thread a BYB is a BYB no matter the breed.


----------



## william williamson

angelbaby said:


> Not even gonna argue with idiots on here who dont like a certain breed good for you for whatever you like but to dis a breed because you dont care for it is stupid. There is a huge debate over bullys vs ABPT but seriously If you truely loved dogs you would try to unite as a force to fight all the BSL , BYB that affect both these breeds but instead you "old dog men" want to argue and put down other peoples choices there are enough BS that we all have to put up with in the world owning these dogs we really dont need the boundarys you guys create among the bully/APBT world. your choice of dog may not be my cup of tea but I would put my a$$ on the line to protect that dog because I care about the dogs. if you think the bully breeders are the only ones doing things unethical out there and BYB then you seriously need to open your eyes I see it APBT, american bulldogs, bullys, poodles , everything open up your classifieds in your paper. Dont turn this into a bully breeder hater thread a BYB is a BYB no matter the breed.


I shot off on all designer dogs.they're all the same.


----------



## dixieland

angelbaby said:


> Not even gonna argue with idiots on here who dont like a certain breed good for you for whatever you like but to dis a breed because you dont care for it is stupid. There is a huge debate over bullys vs ABPT but seriously If you truely loved dogs you would try to unite as a force to fight all the BSL , BYB that affect both these breeds but instead you "old dog men" want to argue and put down other peoples choices there are enough BS that we all have to put up with in the world owning these dogs we really dont need the boundarys you guys create among the bully/APBT world. your choice of dog may not be my cup of tea but I would put my a$$ on the line to protect that dog because I care about the dogs. if you think the bully breeders are the only ones doing things unethical out there and BYB then you seriously need to open your eyes I see it APBT, american bulldogs, bullys, poodles , everything open up your classifieds in your paper. Dont turn this into a bully breeder hater thread a BYB is a BYB no matter the breed.


The old dogmen aren't shooting them down and talking about them because they don't like them.They are doing it because the majority of bully breeders are calling themselves apbt breeders.


----------



## jamielvsaustin

Code of Ethics For Breeders of American Pit Bull Terriers/American Staffordshire Terriers

Section I: Introduction & Mission Statement

Introduction: This Code of Ethics is being presented by the Pit Bull Owners Alliance (PBOA). The material presented herein is to serve as a guide for breeders and reference tool for potential buyers seeking out breeders. The goal in presenting this Code of Ethics is not to promote Pit Bull breeding, but rather to discourage indiscriminate breeding, poor breeding practices, and support of unethical breeders. PBOA supports and encourages rescue above and beyond breeding or purchasing Pit Bulls.

Mission Statement: The ethical breeder of American Pit Bull Terriers and/or American Staffordshire Terriers ("Pit Bulls") shall always hold paramount the future of the breed. A desire for betterment and preservation of the Pit Bull breed should be the sole driving force behind a breeder's choice to produce puppies.

1) The breed's future: because of a) anti-Pit Bull legislation, b) irresponsible ownership, c) criminal animal abuse, and d) a surplus of dogs, the future of the Pit Bull is in jeopardy. Prior to planning a litter, a breeder should ask himself/herself if the litter will jeopardize the future of the breed by contributing in any way to a, b, c, and/or d above.

2) Betterment of the breed: the goal of the ethical Pit Bull breeder should always be, first and foremost, to better the breed through the production of puppies that are as good as or superior to the previous generation. Production of Pit Bulls that ideally represent the United Kennel Club (UKC), American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA), and/or American Kennel Club (AKC) Standard(s) should be considered the pinnacle of a Pit Bull breeding program.

3) Preservation of the breed: ethical breeders should work to preserve, through legal and humane means, the Pit Bull breed as it was, is and should be. Means to achieve this goal include: protecting the integrity of the breed through adherence to the Standards; careful culling (via sterilization, and/or humane euthanasia when necessary) of sub-standard stock; meticulous record-keeping, DNA profiling, microchipping, and pedigree research; studying to achieve a scholarly knowledge of breed history, temperament, health, structure, and genetics.

Section II: Actions of the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder

Note 1: For simplicity's sake, "dog" will apply to both sexes. "Breeding stock" will apply to any dog or dogs that the Ethical Pit Bull breeder will breed, allow to be bred, or pay for the breeding services of.

Note 2: The pedigrees (previous generations) of all breeding stock should be considered as important as the breeding stock itself.

Note 3: Proper care, management and training are beyond the scope of this document. However an Ethical Pit Bull Breeder keeps their dogs well trained, in good health, in clean quarters, provides daily exercise and mental stimulation, and does not keep more dogs than can adequately be provided for.

The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder chooses breeding stock based on several criteria:

a) correctness of temperament (see #2 and Item 2) 
b) health and vitality of the individual dogs (see #3, Item 3, and Note 3) 
c) conformity to the applicable breed standard of the recognized Pit Bull registry (see # 5) 
d) qualities the individual dogs may offer to future generations 
e) qualities the pedigrees of the individual dogs may offer to future generations

The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder holds "A" and "B" above paramount above all other considerations when choosing breeding stock.

The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder:

1) has an extensive knowledge of Pit Bulls (their history, genetics, the Standards, care, training), as well as a strong understanding of breeding practices, canine health, and dog behavior/training

2) chooses breeding stock that is temperamentally sound and representative of the Standards. In addition, the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder does not breed any Pit Bull that is human-aggressive, fearful, exhibits behavior typically seen in breeds of the protection/guardian group, nor any Pit Bull that is not "temperament correct" (see item 3 below).

Item 2: The temperament correct Pit Bull: seeks out human interaction; is responsive, biddable and eager to please; may be genetically predisposed to aggression towards other dogs or animals; is appropriately submissive; is well balanced and optimistic; enjoys handling; presents good eye contact; is able to be calm in the presence of other dogs on leash or - if initially leash reactive - can learn how to tolerate their presence; is willing to connect with handler during high arousal; can be handled safely even in times of high arousal; accepts a reasonable amount of confinement; drops arousal levels quickly when removed from a stressful situation; is social with people of all types; is responsive and good natured; is never aggressive towards humans.

3) health tests all breeding stock prior to breeding, and certifies health of breeding stock prior to breeding where such certifications are available. Tests and certifications shall be conducted and processed prior to any dog being bred. Required health tests and certifications include: hips, elbows, thyroid, and heart (evaluated and certified by organizations such as Orthopedic Foundation for Animals [OFA] for hips, elbows, thyroid, and heart, or PennHip for hips). Dogs should test negative for Brucellosis and von Willebrand's Disease. Additional testing may be conducted for the following health abnormalties: Spinocerebellar/Hereditary Ataxia (specifically on American Staffordshire Terriers), and Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) with subsequent registration with Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) encouraged for dogs free of PRA. Results and certifications of any and all tests will be made readily available to potential buyers if tested and certified dogs will be bred. In addition, immediately prior to each breeding, all breeding stock should pass a basic veterinary health examination and be determined to be in good health.

Item 3: No dog with unsatisfactory health tests and/or certification results shall ever be bred. Unsatisfactory results would be (among others):

a) OFA hip ratings below fair 
b) OFA elbow ratings that indicated elbow dysplasia 
c) PennHip ratings that show abnormal joint laxity 
d) thyroids that do not test normal; thyroids that test TgAA positive 
e) hearts that are not found to be clear of murmurs or other abnormalities upon examination with a Doppler (ultrasound) exam by a Board Certified Cardiologist 
f) positive tests for Spincerebellar/Hereditary Ataxia 
g) positive tests for PRA 
h) positive tests for any other hereditary/congenital/genetic disease

Note 3) No dog that has ever been diagnosed with a hereditary/congenital skin disease (including demodectic mange) shall ever be bred. A dog with chronic health problems (such as skin allergies) and/or weaknesses, and/or immune weakness shall never be bred. A dog that has torn anterior cruxiate cigaments (ACL) shall never be bred unless the torn ligaments were damaged because of conceivable stress and/or injury which indicate normal environmental causes and not hereditary/congenital/genetic weakness.

5) chooses breeding stock that conforms to the Standard(s) of the applicable recognized Pit Bull registry.

6) registers breeding stock and produced litters with a recognized Pit Bull registry. 
Item 1: For the sake of this Code of Ethics, recognized Pit Bull registries will be considered the United Kennel Club and the American Dog Breeders Association (for American Pit Bull Terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers being registered as American Pit Bull Terriers), and the American Kennel Club (for American Staffordshire Terriers). These organizations are the oldest and hold breed standards that are most sought after and followed.

7) only breeds mature (over 2 years of age) dogs. Does not breed elderly bitches, nor does the Ethical Pit Bull breeder breed any one bitch more than once every 24 months.

seeks validation of quality of breeding stock through competition in organized dog sports and subsequent achievement of titles and certifications such as:

a) UKC, ADBA, and AKC conformation, obedience, agility, and performance titles 
b) certifications such as the AKC's Canine Good Citizen (CGC), American Temperament 
Test Society's Temperament Tested (TT), Therapy Dogs International's Therapy Dog International (TDI), and other similar, valid certifications. 
c) events, titles, and certifications offered by other valid organizations.

9) breeds less than 3 litters every year. Should ideally breed no more than 1 litter a year.

10) breeds when there is a specific demand for the puppies, and owners for puppies have been predetermined before birth.

Section III: Puppies, Placement, and Care

Note 5: Section III also applies to adolescent dogs and/or adult dogs any breeder may have in their care and potentially place.

1) chooses homes based on ability to properly care for and handle a Pit Bull, and acts as match maker between puppy/dog and potential owner to ensure compatibility.

Item 4: The quality of the home any puppy or dog is placed into should be of great importance. The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder only considers a potential owner that:

a) has already done good breed research. Asks good questions. Shows willingness to learn more 
b) is realistic about breed challenges (dog-aggression, high energy levels, strong and pushy, breed specific legislation, rental and home owners insurance issues, bad reputation of breed, etc.) 
c) shows a stable, mature, open-minded personality 
d) is happy to be interviewed and receive a home inspection 
e) is physically capable of handling a strong dog 
f) wants an indoor pet as a companion animal/family member 
g) has had some dog experience and knowledge of basic training. 
h) has a reasonably active lifestyle and is prepared to satisfy dog's daily exercise needs 
i) owns a home or has a secure rental that will allow a Pit Bull (should provide proof in lease) 
j) can provide safe containment: tall, secure fences if yard is present and working latches on gates. 
k) lives in a household (includes roommates, children, seniors) that is involved in the decision to bring a Pit Bull into the family and is able to help manage a dog 
l) has other pets in the home that are a good match and understands that Pit Bull must be separated from other pets when not supervised

12) socializes and conducts basic training with all puppies before sending them to their new homes.

13) microchips all puppies prior to sending them to their new homes.

14) does not place puppies under 8 weeks of age.

15) does not place puppies in areas where breed specific legislation that would endanger the puppy's life or quality of life exists.

16) provides legally-binding, non-expiring contracts upon purchase that protect buyer as well as puppy. Contract certifies health (congenital, genetic, hereditary) and temperamental soundness of puppy. Assures puppy is disease-free prior to placement through records detailing proper veterinary and health care. Contract includes clause that requires new owner to relocate with the dog, or return the dog to the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder in the event that breed specific legislation that would endanger the puppy's life or quality of life is enacted in the new owner's city/state.

17) takes responsibility for any puppy produced, during any point in the lifetime of that puppy, should the original home become unable to care for the puppy or grown adult dog.

18) sends puppies home with papers from the recognized Pit Bull registry to allow the new owner to register the puppy in his/her name; unless the puppy is pet stock and is not spayed or neutered prior to going to new home, in which case, the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder will withhold papers until the new owner can provide proof of spay/neuter. It is strongly advised, however, that the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder spays/neuters all pet stock prior to placement in new homes.

Item 5: "Pet stock" is any puppy that is not or would not potentially be bred by an Ethical Pit Bull Breeder, and/or any puppy that will not potentially be shown in conformation events.

19) after sending puppy home, offers support indefinitely to new owner by way of breed counseling, training/behavior advice, health care information, referrals, etc.

20) recognizes that breeding is not a money making venture, a business, nor a means to bring in extra money. Stud fees and sale prices of puppies should reflect the costs of ethical breeding. The ethical breeder does not see a profit at the end of the year, but may actually see a loss.

(C) 2005 Mary Harwelik & Pit Bull Owners Alliance


----------



## jamielvsaustin

Also this:


----------



## max

Wasn't Pit Bull also mix/cross breed of different dogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull)? Why hate bully dog? That's just pure discrimination. If we discriminate one breed (yes, I called it breed because it's alive), then we are no different from all those who are against pit bulls.


----------



## buzhunter

angelbaby said:


> Not even gonna argue with idiots on here who dont like a certain breed good for you for whatever you like but to dis a breed because you dont care for it is stupid. There is a huge debate over bullys vs ABPT but seriously If you truely loved dogs you would try to unite as a force to fight all the BSL , BYB that affect both these breeds but instead you "old dog men" want to argue and put down other peoples choices there are enough BS that we all have to put up with in the world owning these dogs we really dont need the boundarys you guys create among the bully/APBT world. your choice of dog may not be my cup of tea but I would put my ass on the line to protect that dog because I care about the dogs. if you think the bully breeders are the only ones doing things unethical out there and BYB then you seriously need to open your eyes I see it APBT, american bulldogs, bullys, poodles , everything open up your classifieds in your paper. Dont turn this into a bully breeder hater thread a BYB is a BYB no matter the breed.


I ain't buying into the "we are the world" BS. When the "old dogmen" spend 30 years destroying the reputation of another breed, then I'll agree you have something to bitch about.


----------



## william williamson

max said:


> Wasn't Pit Bull also mix/cross breed of different dogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull)? Why hate bully dog? That's just pure discrimination. If we discriminate one breed (yes, I called it breed because it's alive), then we are no different from all those who are against pit bulls.


it's the foundation,the lying,the unscrupulous methods with which the breed was propogated.it is for nothing more than to line pockets.
their was never A pit bull sold 20 years ago for 5 grand unless it was A proven dog and then used for the propogation of more dogs that would be proven or culled.
theirs not A single bully worth the asking price,based on the purpose of what pits were bred for.
you can't compare A designer dog,bred for no other reason than to make money and fullfill the machismo or machisma with which they are held in.
I'm not against the dog,I dislike the way they bred under,over and all around the pit bull.they advertise them as pits,they ride the pit bull coattail,and then one day they start A breed like they've done something spectacular.
theirs some of us that are way all to familiar with all the tactics and scandalous behavior of the scumbags who bred them gotti and RE pigs.
don't hate on me for my fact based dillusion of what some posers did.
they're just A bunch of money grubbin worms that exploited A perfect dog,and now folks want to assimilate them oinkers to my pit.
when folks ask me if my dog is A bully I say no,she doen't puke on herself during sex,in the box she would whale on any bully,she'll outswim,jump pull,hunt,fight,or love them.
and she doesn't have to have beauty sleep or ego strokes from me or anyone else.


----------



## max

I definitely disagree about the 5g dogs, that is just plain ridiculous, especially with no active competition history. I'm guessing there were people who also hated the idea of crossbreeding bulldogs and terriers back in the 1800's. Are the APBT, AST, SBT accepted as A quality breed now? I think bullys look just as awesome as APBT.


----------



## william williamson

max said:


> I definitely disagree about the 5g dogs, that is just plain ridiculous, especially with no active competition history. I'm guessing there were people who also hated the idea of crossbreeding bulldogs and terriers back in the 1800's. Are the APBT, AST, SBT accepted as A quality breed now? I think bullys look just as awesome as APBT.


so you'll just disregard the point of purpose and tact.
I'll slow it down.
t h e p i t b u l l w a s b r e d f o r p u r p o s e. n o t f o r m o n e y a n d n o t o r i e t y a n d t o f u l l f i l l m a c h i s m o.
I know my previous post stings.
thats usually what happens when the truth is exposed and others find the truth offensive.


----------



## max

angelbaby said:


> Not even gonna argue with idiots on here who dont like a certain breed good for you for whatever you like but to dis a breed because you dont care for it is stupid.


Angelbaby is right. This is a waste of time.. :hammer: moving on...


----------



## william williamson

max said:


> Angelbaby is right. This is a waste of time.. :hammer: moving on...


I would say rather,that your trying to bring A knife to a gunfight.
I know what I know from 33 years of hands on experience.
maybe,choose your battles more wisely.
"talkin bulldog" ain't like arguin dog on the block.


----------



## wild_deuce03

Athena is a bully and I get what William and Buz are saying. They hate the practice and the way it started, not the dog. At least that's how I took it. *shrugs*

I'll admit to being naive when I got Athena. I had no idea what a Bully was and she was registered as an APBT for that matter by the breeder. For me, I could honestly care less what she is. I didn't pay an arm and a leg for her and had no intentions of getting her to be a game dog. I just thought she was beautiful. Plain and simple. After reading here, I couldn't handle a game bred dog right now anyways, so I'm glad I "lucked" out with my naivety. No desire to breed her or show her either. She's a pet. I may give a go at WP, but that's about it.


----------



## coppermare

Oh geesh read this a few days ago and said it wasn't even worth the effort but ...dang it.
Well, whether they were bred to make a profit or for looks, or just because somebody liked the looks of them .........then I'd say they were bred for a purpose. Must be a pretty good purpose too, they still being bred...LOL 
Looks like their around to stay so if you don't like them, then you've stated your opinion but that is no reason to down others with remarks like "bringing a knife to a gun fight" or "puke on herself during sex" wow what class there dude! Seems your the type person that only YOUR truth is the truth...which to me is delusional.

it's the foundation,the lying,the unscrupulous methods with which the breed was propogated.it is for nothing more than to line pockets.
their was never A pit bull sold 20 years ago for 5 grand unless it was A proven dog and then used for the propogation of more dogs that would be proven or culled.
theirs not A single bully worth the asking price,based on the purpose of what pits were bred for. 
You were ok with the first sentence. I'd of let that lay. And agreed to it..but you hadda keep spewin didn't ya? Of COURSE there wasn't a dog sold for five grand twenty years ago....duh. ... Wasn't a car sold for forty thousand either. Geesh welcome to the future. Theres a lot of things not worth the asking price but theres a sucker born every minute. And I'd dare say if you were offered two thousand for a five hundred dollar anything you'd not take it? HA HA....yeah.
you can't compare A designer dog,bred for no other reason than to make money and fullfill the machismo or machisma with which they are held in.
Theres plenty of dogs bred just to be designer dogs. Must be people that want that huh? Do you think someone that wants a yorkie cares to compare to a pit? They don't care....But like it or not the bully has pit in it...the pit has terrier in it...the pit has mastiff in it according to some sites, and then according to all nobody really has a firm fact of what is in what from what I read in the beginnings....SO WHAT?? 
Who wants to compare? Not me. Personally I think the dogs that look like they've been starved and I can count every rib and bodies like greyhounds and heads like mutts ain't my cup of tea...then again neither are those with two foot legs and bowed out front ends and bellies that scrub the ground when they walk. Ain't my cup of tea either. So why compare. I like what I like, you like what you like, and as long as it ain't hurtin nobody OH WELLLLLLLL....


----------



## MISSAPBT

WW there is just no getting through to close minded people, let them be with there bullys, we know APBT will run rings around those things.


----------



## wild_deuce03

MISSAPBT said:


> WW there is just no getting through to close minded people, let them be with there bullys, we know APBT will run rings around those things.


And that's fine. I'm perfectly content with my Bully. Don't need to prove a thing with her.


----------



## coppermare

wild_deuce03 said:


> And that's fine. I'm perfectly content with my Bully. Don't need to prove a thing with her.


:woof::woof: LOL me too Deuce, I ain't into runnin no rings....


----------



## william williamson

Coppermare,their were alot of dogs that went for as much as 10 grand that I was aware of,personally.I've seen puppy/young dog prospects with one roll go for A few grand,and proven dogs stand at stud for A grand or more.25 years ago.
their were 2 dogs owned by some tuscarora indians,2 brothers.you couldn't get either of their dogs.they were offered 25 grand for the pair in cash.they flat said they would make half that on each dogs match that night.
they were called assasin 1 and assasin 2 they were one a grand champ,and the other went 4 matches W/ wins.
these dogs made an ignorant amount of money.I saw 7 of the 10 matches and the side betting was ridiculous.guys bet thousands on them.
people had to put up property deeds to get in the box.
check out the video on youtube with the bully pukin on the back of the female.
I will not post anything that is not fact,fact that I saw did or even hid from.
and what is delusional about an event situation or circumstance that took place and unfolded?
I've never needed to post hypothetical or feed into media frenzy.therefore it has merit,not delusion.
and yeah,him and the angel,they posted challenges,they used and refered to idiots.
yet you always come for my throat.
why is that?
I don't cut no ice,I don't run on opinion or heresay and never will.
I stand to any challenge,and like my momma said,
"boy,when your right you fight,and when your wrong,shut up and get along".
disqualify my statements before you color them and highlight them.
do that,I put up the pukin poo-poo dog,I saw and participated in dog sales and breedings to match my comment.named the dogs for some big money matches.
what else would you like me to verify?
don't bring A knife to A gunfight.


----------



## Rudy4747

"talkin bulldog" ain't like arguin dog on the block.[/QUOTE]
Thats funny. I have to say I have had to talk to many people about the differences. I have just come to relies that there is far to many different opinions for any one to be right at this point. because true bully owners know that their dog is not a APBT. As for all the people out there lying about it those are the people that I think really make APBT owners upset. Because now i walk my dog and people ask me what kind of dogs is he/ or is he a blue? or Why is he so small. That is the stuff that makes me bad a bout the lying bully breeders. And there is alot of them out there.


----------



## william williamson

Rudy4747 said:


> "talkin bulldog" ain't like arguin dog on the block.
> 
> Thats funny. I have to say I have had to talk to many people about the differences. I have just come to relies that there is far to many different opinions for any one to be right at this point. because true bully owners know that their dog is not a APBT. As for all the people out there lying about it those are the people that I think really make APBT owners upset. Because now i walk my dog and people ask me what kind of dogs is he/ or is he a blue? or Why is he so small. That is the stuff that makes me bad a bout the lying bully breeders. And there is alot of them out there.


your right,that word,"opinion" next to fact is as shallow as the person who depends on it to prove A point.
and what happens alot,with the pit,bully convos is that you can talk logic from the bulldog side of the event,and they talk at you with that word,opinion.


----------



## Rudy4747

Yeah it is funny to me how many are so out of sorts with what is truth and what is advertising on the internet. I was at an ADBA show when a guy said they are calling these pitbulls but they are so small. i looked at him and said your at the wrong show the bully show is next week. go home and google american bully and you'll find that they are not apbts. But yo will probably find what you are looking for.


----------



## MISSAPBT

LOL @ Rudy thats crack up "the bully show is next weekend"


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

ok, I'm not a sensitive, whiny bully owner. I'd like to think im pretty level headed. There are quite a few posts within this thread that really... make me angry. 

Please refer to Forum Rule number 8.


----------



## william williamson

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> ok, I'm not a sensitive, whiny bully owner. I'd like to think im pretty level headed. There are quite a few posts within this thread that really... make me angry.
> 
> Please refer to Forum Rule number 8.


it says discriminate against bully and vice versa.
It would serve well, to read closely,if it's me that your angry about.
I stated 2 times,in my way of thinkin,the dogs are never wrong for their existance.
now the folks that propogated such as the "breed".thats my beef.
and weighing their value to someone,personally.I wouldn't discriminate that.
I do feel however that I have the right to point out the comparable differences.
and also,something someone else missed,as you did so eloquently,those that don't gather to the bully were called pointedly,idiots.
where I come from thats A cussin word.I wanted to use the C word,and didn't.
cussin is cussin,and to think one is less than the other,read the bible.LOL
it speaks to thinkin is doin,and their are no degrees to sin.
theirs 3 things I try to allude to mentally when debating.a dictionary,legal ramifications,and the bible.
and not to be right,to back others into A corner they can't come from.


----------



## buzhunter

Not discriminating against bully bred dogs is one thing, and the discussion is always a mess, BUT the logic behind the contempt for the ideology should be understood. It has to be discussed. It's far deeper than just difference in taste. A few of the posters in this thread should stop telling and start asking.


----------



## wild_deuce03

buzhunter said:


> Not discriminating against bully bred dogs is one thing, and the discussion is always a mess, BUT the logic behind the contempt for the ideology should be understood. It has to be discussed. It's far deeper than just difference in taste. A few of the posters in this thread should stop telling and start asking.


Is there anything worth reading already out there about the differences? Hate to have someone to spell it out if there is already a write up. Although, I think I have a basic understanding of the differences between the two.


----------



## buzhunter

Your best bet is to just listen to both sides. Spend a lot of time listening. Gopitbull may be the best place in the world to learn these things because we have folks form every walk of "pit bull" life. Ask questions. Pick up some books on game dogs. Listen closely to those who were/are there with honest dogs. Maybe the most important thing to learn about is what types of dogs are perpetuating the BSL epidemic and which type is paying the price for that.


----------



## dixieland

buzhunter said:


> Your best bet is to just listen to both sides. Spend a lot of time listening. Gopitbull may be the best place in the world to learn these things because we have folks form every walk of "pit bull" life. Ask questions. Pick up some books on game dogs. Listen closely to those who were/are there with honest dogs. Maybe the most important thing to learn about is what types of dogs are perpetuating the BSL epidemic and which type is paying the price for that.


:goodpost::goodpost: Especially love the last sentence!


----------



## coppermare

william williamson said:


> Coppermare,their were alot of dogs that went for as much as 10 grand that I was aware of,personally.I've seen puppy/young dog prospects with one roll go for A few grand,and proven dogs stand at stud for A grand or more.25 years ago.
> their were 2 dogs owned by some tuscarora indians,2 brothers.you couldn't get either of their dogs.they were offered 25 grand for the pair in cash.they flat said they would make half that on each dogs match that night.
> they were called assasin 1 and assasin 2 they were one a grand champ,and the other went 4 matches W/ wins.
> these dogs made an ignorant amount of money.I saw 7 of the 10 matches and the side betting was ridiculous.guys bet thousands on them.
> people had to put up property deeds to get in the box.
> check out the video on youtube with the bully pukin on the back of the female.
> I will not post anything that is not fact,fact that I saw did or even hid from.
> and what is delusional about an event situation or circumstance that took place and unfolded?
> I've never needed to post hypothetical or feed into media frenzy.therefore it has merit,not delusion.
> and yeah,him and the angel,they posted challenges,they used and refered to idiots.
> yet you always come for my throat.
> why is that?
> I don't cut no ice,I don't run on opinion or heresay and never will.
> I stand to any challenge,and like my momma said,
> "boy,when your right you fight,and when your wrong,shut up and get along".
> disqualify my statements before you color them and highlight them.
> do that,I put up the pukin poo-poo dog,I saw and participated in dog sales and breedings to match my comment.named the dogs for some big money matches.
> what else would you like me to verify?
> don't bring A knife to A gunfight.


It was all your opinion, nothing more. You didnt "verify" anything. But your opinion was rude and stepping on toes of others. If they called you an idiot, then yep I missed that. I didnt see it as a challenge though to you directly. Now, me, Yeah mine was more of a challenge. I never said the video was not fact, I said it was distasteful, unclassy and sick. And to find such a video I wondered what you must have typed in the search box to arrive at it.
I didn't realize I "came for your throat" you just make me angry sometimes with your lack of consideration for others feelings. My mama taught me to always consider others feelings. She NEVER told me to fight, and I got my *** whipped many a time for fighting. I highlight your text or posting because it's what I am responding to. Your answers are never directed to what I respond with but always seem to me to be off down some other trail or thought. Kinda like a politician's way of talking or thinking. I like directness. And I hate arrogance. We got a personality clash of some sort I believe. And btw I don't bring a knife nor gun to a fight...I'm NO coward.


----------



## coppermare

buzhunter said:


> Your best bet is to just listen to both sides. Spend a lot of time listening. Gopitbull may be the best place in the world to learn these things because we have folks form every walk of "pit bull" life. Ask questions. Pick up some books on game dogs. Listen closely to those who were/are there with honest dogs. Maybe the most important thing to learn about is what types of dogs are perpetuating the BSL epidemic and which type is paying the price for that.


That is about as bad as the people or media that are perpetuating one breed needs BSL. Your being just like that.
Your sterotyping bullies, saying a "type" of dog.

Can you prove that with statistics? Even if you could it would not be factual. Why? Because there are probably more "bully" types by numbers than APBT'S.............


----------



## jayandlacy

Well I love my dogs, my bully, and my apbt. I love them soo very much. Neither of my dogs need to run circles round anything. My Kaos may not have the drive that Ice has, since hes is half bully, half apbt, but he can jump much higher then Ice, and thats just for sh*ts and giggles. I would also like to say that as far as my dogs go, they both have their pros and cons. Ices drive is great, his strength, his determination. Kaos, yes he is lazier, he still will keep up with Ice on somethings, but its nice to have a laid back dog, when the other is soooo high strung. I think a lot of what they have is just plain old personality as well. I'll stick with what it comes down to, when they come for my american pit bull terrier, they will come for my american bully too. Then I will move with my dogs in tow. Both breeds are equally discriminated against, most people as we already know, do not recognize that they are "technically" different.


----------



## coppermare

From what I've learned and read. 
The APBT is in itself a mixed breed. Terrier and bulldog.
The bully, is simply a newer breed. And we are fortunate enough to come in at a time when this breed is beginning. And there are just to many different opinions as to what he should actually look like. Just as I'm sure there were the same opinions when APBT's were first bred. I'm sure some may have thought they looked to terrier like while others thought they looked more bulldog like. I see bullies that look more APBT, some that look more Amstaff while others look Staffordshire looking. When I looked at the pics of the some of the dogs FH posted I honestly saw a lot of Staffordshire in them. So, what's the difference in what he's doing and what Dave Wilson did? Everybody has their own opinion of what something should look like. Personally, I don't know if Dave added anything to that line or not. NOBODY will ever know the truth and since it's been so many years now (20) what's the point of caring. Who knows what got mixed in some APBT'S lines that people didn't come clean about either? Just like us as races there is always a possibility of a "milkman" visit. 
I see the vision I think personally I have of a bully and it is the original razor's edge thinking. 
"In the late eighties Pits and Staffs did not look like the Razors Edge dogs of today. The styles were divided into three different worlds. ADBA dogs which catered more towards the original game Pits. UKC dogs who took the Pit Bull into more of a showing direction. The AKC who changed the breed into the American Staffordshire Terrier, and went into a completely different show world. All three types stemmed from the original breed, The American Pit Bull Terrier, but all three styles had moved into very different directions.
We wanted to produce heavier built dogs with heavy bone structure. More of the Bullier look. The breed was created by a cross of Terrier and Bulldog, and we wanted more of the Bully structure. (NOT re-introduce Bulldogs, but breed to pull heavier traits from within the existing breed. Mix breeding was NEVER an idea or option! You can breed for traits already prevalent to pull desired genes. Contrary to rumors, only Pits and Staffs which came from the same original American Pit Bull Terrier were used in the creation Razors Edge, NEVER another breed.)

wanted the drive and muscularity of the original Pits. We wanted the size and substance of the show Pits. We wanted a mellower demeanor and clean look of the Staffs, and the beautiful blue color we had only seen in them. We wanted something all the styles possessed, but with and extra Edge. We wanted Bully! There were already Bully styles within the breed, but none possessed the ultimate look we were searching for, and none consistently produced this look. This is how the concept for the look of Razors Edge began. 

We also wanted a hard look, a head that was bricked in shaped with a hard chiseled look, and short blocky muzzle. Size was important and we bred to create larger harder looking heads. Our concept was breed to produce females that look like males; hence one of our quotes, "The place where females out do other kennels males". 

Now, granted RE has changed and went further with allowing different "looks" or "types" of bullies and I may not agree with that but it was never my dream or movement to begin with. I like what he started, I like the look of this breed as opposed to a true APBT. They suit my lifestyle better also. I don't wish to compare it to an APBT because if that is what WE WANTED we would not have tried to breed certian traits and looks of the APBT OUT OF THEM now would we??? LOL.... If I had wanted that I would have that, not a bully....geesh. 
But fact is they are still pit bulls. An Amstaff is a pit bull, a pit bull is an amstaff ect. ect... A bully is not an APBT though...


----------



## william williamson

CM,again,lets go down the road.
you said that my hands on and witnessed events for the financial aspect,was in effect opinion.it wasn't.
heres A C&P,theirs about 40 more,in the comment about what A working, tested dog can bring.

While Dorson never crossed paths with Boudreaux, he used his Matt Collins guise to infiltrate Boudreaux's world. He made the rounds of the backwoods kennels used by top breeders and fighters, and quickly learned about the big money involved: fight purses topping $50,000, pick-of-the-litter pups selling for $10,000. He secretly tape-recorded many of his conversations.

I think that part of your loathing isn't just you.I get it alot.
it's A result of many things,my childhood,my disturbing family life,where I came up and what I did throughout my life.
as to the youtube,find it as you must.that wasn't my dog that couldn't perform for 15 seconds.and it was posted on several sites,for the last few years.as A joke to certain things,yet,is it A joke? or A reality to A certain degree of inferiority.
I've had dogs run pig all day. had dogs asked to go deep past 2 hrs.taken my female to the beach and had her pull A kid toy up and down the beach all day every weekend during the beach season in NC for years.
but then again,thats opinion,surely.
I'll scratch the line,any line for any reason.never been assaulted or pushed where I didn't push back.
I spent my whole early childhood being laughed at because I was born handicapped,picked on spit on called Ni##$% lover because my stepfather was dark skinned central american.hated by the white men and the latins for our mixed family in the early 60's.I was the bright kid that couldn't keep his seat.today they call it ADHD.
I ain't layin down.if ya'll wanna push to get me banned,tell me,I'll save them the stroke.
should my realities and experiences be to harsh,don't read them.theirs alot of things that I don't share on.either i don't know or my methods are to old fashioned.
i'll say this.when my mane pops on A thread,and I put pen to paper,it happened.that doesn't mean that I'm 100% proud of 100% of my lifes history and experiences,trust me,I would like to put the bullet back through the barrel,yet it's to late.
you could be like many of my other haters.alot of them hate that I've done so much with/in my life.
I didn't go through life as A clock punchin go home,die at 60 generic american.


----------



## william williamson

bully:they cross bred pits with other dogs,hung pit papers on them,sold them as pits.used pit bull notoriety in athleticism,tennacity,drive and superiority above many breeds that folks have attempted to use to minimize the pit.
theirs folks that hate the pullin pit# for # because they outdo the other breeds.
catahoula owners hate pits.they are heartier than cats,out pig them.
people doing bite work and scenting are fascinated by their work ethics.
being A more people type dog vs. the working dogs then people dogs give them the ability to step to the next level.
i wish I had the pit bull books I had before I got sent up.their was A stratton article about A pit,from generic lineage as far as schutzund is concerned,they took A puppy,brought it up and took it to compete.it excelled far beyond anyones expectation and out worked dogs with nothing but schutzund heritage.all by A little old raggedy andy dog.
and when people look at a pit,they see A naturally tuned machine.and what shows better than something that takes not near as much to get pointed? 
pits are/were crossed.yet as said before,they did it for the dog to become superoir as A DOG.not A status symbol,or A moniker to flaunt an image. 
they are so well rounded as A dog.
and again,like Colby said,give me A pit and bring the bully pick the sport.
the #1 thing that bullies do pits can't, is pimp.
only big but boys can pimp,and A pits but is all muscle.


----------



## redog

Ill, remind you guys to keep it clean and dont go over board. This is a good debate and Im learning alot from it. dont spoil it and get it moved to the vip


----------



## MISSAPBT

APBT = Bulldog/terrier
Bully= apbt/ast apbt/mastiff apbt/english bulldog ???? I dont see how this is right.

WW I have that book at home along with too many more lol, with blood hound ect, i will try scan it and post


----------



## coppermare

william williamson said:


> bully:they cross bred pits with other dogs,hung pit papers on them,sold them as pits.used pit bull notoriety in athleticism,tennacity,drive and superiority above many breeds that folks have attempted to use to minimize the pit.
> theirs folks that hate the pullin pit# for # because they outdo the other breeds.
> catahoula owners hate pits.they are heartier than cats,out pig them.
> people doing bite work and scenting are fascinated by their work ethics.
> being A more people type dog vs. the working dogs then people dogs give them the ability to step to the next level.
> i wish I had the pit bull books I had before I got sent up.their was A stratton article about A pit,from generic lineage as far as schutzund is concerned,they took A puppy,brought it up and took it to compete.it excelled far beyond anyones expectation and out worked dogs with nothing but schutzund heritage.all by A little old raggedy andy dog.
> and when people look at a pit,they see A naturally tuned machine.and what shows better than something that takes not near as much to get pointed?
> 
> and again,like Colby said,give me A pit and bring the bully pick the sport.
> the #1 thing that bullies do pits can't, is pimp.
> only big but boys can pimp,and A pits but is all muscle.


Again, your opinion, cannot be proved.
Look at this picture and tell me about muscle....:clap:
http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/7523-some-origional-razors-edge-dogs.html

You still don't get it. Bully WAS NOT BRED TO COMPETE NOR COMPARE. What would be the point in breeding something just like something else. They wanted to breed the fight out, leave the heart and people orientation but have a more thicker, blockier head and body.


----------



## Rudy4747

this is how I see it you have a XXl ambully why not a presa canario? Ambully why not a pitbull, Pocket bully why not a staffy bull? It just seems like someone tried to make something that there is no reason for. I do feel like they are good dogs and some look nice. But imo there was no reason to develop this breed. And to me that is the difference between them ( and the other designer breeds) and all other dogs that started as crosses. i will also say I have no dislike for bullies just have this thought of Why?


----------



## Rudy4747

coppermare said:


> Again, your opinion, cannot be proved.
> Look at this picture and tell me about muscle....:clap:
> http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/7523-some-origional-razors-edge-dogs.html
> 
> You still don't get it. Bully WAS NOT BRED TO COMPETE NOR COMPARE. What would be the point in breeding something just like something else. They wanted to breed the fight out, leave the heart and people orientation but have a more thicker, blockier head and body.


no offense but you'll be hard pressed to find a bully that lokes like that now. they are one in a million. And throwing knuckles was a pure Amstaff. not really a bully.


----------



## coppermare

william williamson said:


> CM,again,lets go down the road.
> you said that my hands on and witnessed events for the financial aspect,was in effect opinion.it wasn't.
> heres A C&P,theirs about 40 more,in the comment about what A working, tested dog can bring.
> 
> While Dorson never crossed paths with Boudreaux, he used his Matt Collins guise to infiltrate Boudreaux's world. He made the rounds of the backwoods kennels used by top breeders and fighters, and quickly learned about the big money involved: fight purses topping $50,000, pick-of-the-litter pups selling for $10,000. He secretly tape-recorded many of his conversations.
> 
> I think that part of your loathing isn't just you.I get it alot.
> it's A result of many things,my childhood,my disturbing family life,where I came up and what I did throughout my life.
> as to the youtube,find it as you must.that wasn't my dog that couldn't perform for 15 seconds.and it was posted on several sites,for the last few years.as A joke to certain things,yet,is it A joke? or A reality to A certain degree of inferiority.
> I've had dogs run pig all day. had dogs asked to go deep past 2 hrs.taken my female to the beach and had her pull A kid toy up and down the beach all day every weekend during the beach season in NC for years.
> but then again,thats opinion,surely.
> I'll scratch the line,any line for any reason.never been assaulted or pushed where I didn't push back.
> I spent my whole early childhood being laughed at because I was born handicapped,picked on spit on called Ni##$% lover because my stepfather was dark skinned central american.hated by the white men and the latins for our mixed family in the early 60's.I was the bright kid that couldn't keep his seat.today they call it ADHD.
> I ain't layin down.if ya'll wanna push to get me banned,tell me,I'll save them the stroke.
> should my realities and experiences be to harsh,don't read them.theirs alot of things that I don't share on.either i don't know or my methods are to old fashioned.
> i'll say this.when my mane pops on A thread,and I put pen to paper,it happened.that doesn't mean that I'm 100% proud of 100% of my lifes history and experiences,trust me,I would like to put the bullet back through the barrel,yet it's to late.
> you could be like many of my other haters.alot of them hate that I've done so much with/in my life.
> I didn't go through life as A clock punchin go home,die at 60 generic american.


I don't care about your past. It didn't involve me and I don't judge you for it. I'm involved in the here and now part of it. I can identify with your past in some aspects A LOT. And it's probably the reason I am quick to jump when people are made fun of or judged. And I certainly don't hate....roflmao (sorry, Gage just fell of the bed while he was asleep and hit the floor with a THUD...ROFLMAO...BUT HE'S STAYED ASLEEP!!!!! ) must be the lazy bully in him.....ok back to the topic.....ya laughed didn't ya WW??? I know ya did!!!
I don't hate nor loathe you, I don't know you. I hate some of your remarks and narrowmindness and think that sometimes your heart has been hardened by your past and believe though that somewhere there must be a soft spot and I'M GONNA FIND IT...:roll:


----------



## MISSAPBT

What was the Am Bully bred for CM?

The link you posted, RE that is stupid, you will never find a dog like that now days. go google APBT American Pitbull Terrier and American Bully, majority are Bullys, what is that saying to the world.

This s why APBT owners are pissed!!!


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> no offense but you'll be hard pressed to find a bully that lokes like that now. they are one in a million. And throwing knuckles was a pure Amstaff. not really a bully.


My point when I say that the old orginal RE IMHO should be the Bully dog. The standard. And what if Knuckles was Amstaff? Your point? Were not Amstaff's originally APBT's that took a different turn in looks when AKC adopted them? And didn't Dave say he used Amstaff's to get the look and temperment he envisioned? My personal dogs (bullies) have a lot of Amstaff in them. It's where the blue comes from. But from what I've been reading of late blue came from even further back than that when a red and a blue were put against each other and the blue lost it's getting very enlightning. And if your referring to the pic of the dogs I posted that are in a previous GPB thread they are not Knuckles.


----------



## coppermare

MISSAPBT said:


> What was the Am Bully bred for CM?
> 
> The link you posted, RE that is stupid, you will never find a dog like that now days. go google APBT American Pitbull Terrier and American Bully, majority are Bullys, what is that saying to the world.
> 
> This s why APBT owners are pissed!!!


I'm sorry but I have seen dogs like the link I posted. Are you referring to the ripped dog picture or the RE original standard? The "bully" standard is the same. I don't really get the pictures you posted. I see all types of "pit bull" types in the pictures. Please explain a little better.


----------



## Rudy4747

coppermare said:


> Again, your opinion, cannot be proved.
> Look at this picture and tell me about muscle....:clap:
> http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/7523-some-origional-razors-edge-dogs.html
> 
> You still don't get it. Bully WAS NOT BRED TO COMPETE NOR COMPARE. What would be the point in breeding something just like something else. They wanted to breed the fight out, leave the heart and people orientation but have a more thicker, blockier head and body.


Click on your link the second dog is knuckles. And my point in stating the fact that he was pureamstaff is, him a key in being foundation of the Re would go back to what is the point of the bully breed if even the bully devoted say look at knuckles, he was so awesome. Uh Yeah because he was an amstaff not a bully. So breed the fight out of apbt and give a blocky head what do you have Amstaff?


----------



## MISSAPBT

i cant really as you "if you were a apbt owner" coz your not.

Are you not discrased that i have put in the search American Pitbull Terrier and these show up. silly question corse your not


----------



## Rudy4747

MISSAPBT said:


> i cant really as you "if you were a apbt owner" coz your not.
> 
> Are you not discrased that i have put in the search American Pitbull Terrier and these show up. silly question corse your not


No (bully peeps don't get upset about this) cause that is were like 60% of bullies sales come from. is some uneducated person thinking they are gettingan APBT. Sorry to say that Iwas once one of these buyers. I do love the bully I have but probably would not buy another.


----------



## MISSAPBT

So right, im getting a BIG APBT (hes the man) really your getting shafted of your money, for a problematic unhealthy dog.


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> Click on your link the second dog is knuckles. And my point in stating the fact that he was pureamstaff is, him a key in being foundation of the Re would go back to what is the point of the bully breed if even the bully devoted say look at knuckles, he was so awesome. Uh Yeah because he was an amstaff not a bully. So breed the fight out of apbt and give a blocky head what do you have Amstaff?


The pic I was referring to on the link is the dogs named Panik and Thunder.
I agree the bully is possibly a lot like the amstaff. And probably the nice ones would have a lot more amstaff than APBT, but the difference I see that I like so much more in the bully is the eyes...amstaff they are very round looking. Height, bully is allowed to be taller. Bully is more muscular and allowed more freedom of color.


----------



## coppermare

I'm suppose to feel bad because when you type in a search for APBT that comes up? Type in American Bully and see what comes up. Those pics are sad IMHO but it's the internet anything anybody chooses to call anything can be. It's up to you to educate yourself. Just like I did when I came here. I had no idea of what was what and I'm still learning more everyday. I agreed with you when the light bulb came on that my bully was not an apbt and why you were upset that I couldn't understand why you got mad when I thought he was. It wasn't until gamer I think it was posted the GSD pics that I finally GOT it. But, now I'm educated as to what I have. I like what I have better than the apbt in looks and temperment. And what I have is not in any way compared to what the GS people did to the GSD as what bully did to apbt. Our bullies have no health issues, are very athletic and healthy.


----------



## MISSAPBT

> I had no idea of what was what


So you have only been reserching this breed since Jun 2010, well let me rephrase, you only just figured out what was what in Jun 2010.

Dear Lord


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> No (bully peeps don't get upset about this) cause that is were like 60% of bullies sales come from. is some uneducated person thinking they are gettingan APBT. Sorry to say that Iwas once one of these buyers. I do love the bully I have but probably would not buy another.


I was one of those people. I didn't think I was getting an apbt...I didnt want one. What I SAW, the looks is what I want when I see it. And the temperment (of the grown dogs my son got) was what I liked. 
I'm sure there are those out there (sick egotistical) people that want a status symbol that the name of "pit" conjurs up some macho vicious type dog. And I'm sure they don't have a clue what a real apbt looks like. If they did they wouldn't want one because it's the "looks" that is drawing them in of the bully. I am not sure they truely care what it is called. They just go with the flow and what they hear it called. Years from now they may learn it's a bully. I still don't think it'll affect the sells. A new sports car comes out people like the look it becomes popular and sells go up. They don't care if it's a chevy or ford......


----------



## coppermare

MISSAPBT said:


> So you have only been reserching this breed since Jun 2010, well let me rephrase, you only just figured out what was what in Jun 2010.
> 
> Dear Lord


Yep, I'm a quick study! Fast learner.....amazin ain't it:woof:


----------



## MISSAPBT

Explains alot!


----------



## coppermare

And that is with just an hour or less each night. LOL I admit the internet may not be the most factual of places to learn but it's real handy. Especially when you dedicate oneself to it. I've always had a problem with "trust" and believing in what others tell me. So when I came I opted to do my own research against what I was being told here. Amazing how biased and narrow some of the things I was being told were. Guess I should have expected that when I went into a cowboy camp to learn about Indians huh? LOL. I will give that I learned the difference and respect the apbt peoples love and loyalty to that type. And that people here know far more than me about health, breeding, conformation, and such. The rest just seems opinion and we all are entitled to those arent we.
BTW the date you posted is when I joined. Not when I began to learn about these dogs. That was to be exact about hmmm lemme think...five years ago off and on. When my son took an interest so did I. Not because I liked them but because like a good mother I always took an interest in what my kids got involved in. Snakes, cars, knives, guns, then it was the dogs. Learned a little about all of them along the way.


----------



## william williamson

MISSAPBT said:


> So you have only been reserching this breed since Jun 2010, well let me rephrase, you only just figured out what was what in Jun 2010.
> 
> Dear Lord


oh no you didn't.:hug:now I can


----------



## MISSAPBT

coppermare said:


> It's up to you to educate yourself. Just like I did *when I came here. I had no idea of what was what *and I'm still learning more everyday. .


Sorry just have to quote this.

Lets just settle at we both have very different veiws, i am a little breedist as i am such a gamedog, apbt enthusiest and fancier.


----------



## coppermare

It's like this. Before I came here five years ago I saw what was a bully. Yes, everyone called them pits. I liked the look. But not the personality of what I grew up knowing as a "bulldog". The only ones I'd been around were what my grandmother called white english bulldogs. I had to doctor that one dang dog, put flea powder on him and all such things because he offered to bite everyone else and she'd gotten to old to do it. I also had to watch that dog kill every dog, cat, or chicken or duck or anything besides a horse that I wanted to own. My next introduction to them was my brother owning a I have no idea, he looked like a white english but had a black patch over his eye. Kinda Staffordshire Bull Terrier lookin I guess. He was given to my mother by my brother because he killed the neighbors dog (scaled across the chain link fence into the neighbors yard) where I watched him kill a kitten (my five yr old son's) in his very arms. Then another said "bulldog" killed my little dog in his own yard. Yep, I hated me a bulldog of ANY TYPE. No use for them. My son took an interest in "them" my best friend did also at the same time. What they were looking at were "bullies" So, I began reading up on bullies. The beginnings of RE. My son purchased two bullies and an amstaff and so it began. In my mind just as others I guess they were "pits" In my mind a bulldog was a bulldog. After further reading about bullies and owning those I realized I was stereotyping and judging them all on what I'd known in the past. These dogs loved and were gentle with my grandson, with other dogs, and even cats, letting the cats eat with them. I settled down and got comfortable with them and begin to learn more about BSL and now beginning to wonder why others couldnt learn it was the "dog" and not the breed. The more I learned and looked I did see the difference in the APBT and the bullies but still had no idea of the difference of the name or whatever. I only knew what I liked and what I was defending. I came here. Mainly because I'd been to the "bully" sites and RE sites and did not like the hoopla and selling and breeding and in general the type of people hanging out there. When I came here the people seemed more into learning, educating, being family like and just loving the dogs. Ya'll showed me the difference in apbt, amstaff, bully, ect. Granted I almost left a couple of times because ya'll are very opinionated, quick to judge and I felt snobbish and rude. Don't get defensive because I've watched it go on with other newbies. But, I'm not the type to back down or run and I wanted what ya'll had (to learn) and I stuck it out. It helped that there were nice people here that would let me know (like they have others) to hang in there the "bark is worse than the bite". And because I've been around enough sites to know how cliches operate and been banned from some sites for my mouth and "intelligence" and their lack of (not book intelligence either but hmmm "other) I began to research and I stated before why. Read above somewhere. So, when I come in here and ya'll are downing the bullies and others that like them it didn't sit well. You have to realize that talkin about somebodies dog is akin to talkin about somebodies youngin. It just don't fly without an argument. Which in turn led me to be more determined to research bullies and apbt's. I don't care if you've been around something twenty years it doesnt mean your more intelligent about it because of it. I could be quite good at using a computer for twenty years but someone that took one year of college and really dug into learning about a computer would be more knowledgeable about it than me. Make sense? So, the sarcastic remark about how long I've been learning about the breed was WW's proverbial knife in the gunfight. 
Yep let's agree to disagree and learn we all have different likes and dislikes. But anytime someone keeps on "picking" about someones animal to the point of hurting their feelings then yep I find it real hard to ignore. 
Night all ya'll "youngins"


----------



## max

Well said coppermare.. :clap::clap::thumbsup::thumbsup::clap::clap:

There are a lot of things I've learned just by reading this thread. Most especially the different points of view and opinions from everyone else.


----------



## buzhunter

coppermare said:


> That is about as bad as the people or media that are perpetuating one breed needs BSL. Your being just like that.
> Your sterotyping bullies, saying a "type" of dog.
> 
> Can you prove that with statistics? Even if you could it would not be factual. Why? Because there are probably more "bully" types by numbers than APBT'S.............


The media does not single out any one breed. When BSL legislation is passed for "pit bulls" that includes pit bulls, amstaffs, pet bulls, bullies, pit bull mixes, and anything else deemed "pit bull" by guess who? A dog warden or judge. Not an educated expert and experienced "googler" as yourself.

I don't remember calling bullies a type of dog. Maybe I did, but if I didn't I will now, just for you. The American bully is in fact a type of dog. A designer dog (mainly) That's not a stereotype, that's a fact. The only folks I can think of who call them a "breed" is the ABKC and who are they? I'll tell you - nobody. Not yet anyway. You need another reality check? IMO the pit bull is a type of dog rather than a breed as well - A gamebred bull and terrier type dog to be exact.

You want a surprise? I'll agree with you on the one bit of logic you inadvertently stumbled upon. There are more bully type dogs than honest dogs. There are also more pet bulls and mixes than honest dogs. Google pat patrick, google floyd boudreaux, google ed faron. Those guys were'nt walking around on mtv with their asses out of their pants when the crazies and the do gooder judges stole their life's work. They used the media hype and the "obvious necessity for BSL" as justification for unlawfully seizing private property. See, those dogs were pit bulls, but the dogs who ruined it for them were not.

I like well bred bully dogs. I don't plan on ever feeding one, but I won't rule it out. I don't hate them for not being pit bulls. I hate the idea of any dog bred without a purpose. I like a dog bred for function, not as a fashion accessory. I have friends who are busting their asses to boost the reputation of the American bull. I support them fully.

Can I show you statistics? Nope, but I've been learning for 20 years, not 2 months. You got a lot of catching up to do. You are the poster I was referring to when I said that you need to stop telling and start asking.


----------



## coppermare

buzhunter said:


> The media does not single out any one breed. When BSL legislation is passed for "pit bulls" that includes pit bulls, amstaffs, pet bulls, bullies, pit bull mixes, and anything else deemed "pit bull" by guess who? A dog warden or judge. Not an educated expert and experienced "googler" as yourself.
> 
> I don't remember calling bullies a type of dog. Maybe I did, but if I didn't I will now, just for you. The American bully is in fact a type of dog. A designer dog (mainly) That's not a stereotype, that's a fact. The only folks I can think of who call them a "breed" is the ABKC and who are they? I'll tell you - nobody. Not yet anyway. You need another reality check? IMO the pit bull is a type of dog rather than a breed as well - A gamebred bull and terrier type dog to be exact.
> 
> You want a surprise? I'll agree with you on the one bit of logic you inadvertently stumbled upon. There are more bully type dogs than honest dogs. There are also more pet bulls and mixes than honest dogs. Google pat patrick, google floyd boudreaux, google ed faron. Those guys were'nt walking around on mtv with their asses out of their pants when the crazies and the do gooder judges stole their life's work. They used the media hype and the "obvious necessity for BSL" as justification for unlawfully seizing private property. See, those dogs were pit bulls, but the dogs who ruined it for them were not.
> 
> I like well bred bully dogs. I don't plan on ever feeding one, but I won't rule it out. I don't hate them for not being pit bulls. I hate the idea of any dog bred without a purpose. I like a dog bred for function, not as a fashion accessory. I have friends who are busting their asses to boost the reputation of the American bull. I support them fully.
> 
> Can I show you statistics? Nope, but I've been learning for 20 years, not 2 months. You got a lot of catching up to do. You are the poster I was referring to when I said that you need to stop telling and start asking.


I'd tend to agree with most of what you said except this. There are twelve pups born in a litter. Do you honestly think ALL twelve were bred and will have a purpose? Get real. And even the best of breeders did it I'm sure for their own selfish purpose. They only wanted that ONE pup for their ego to be stroked, to be shown or used. The other eleven, well their hoping they can sell them and probably that they will also be shown or used and further their stud and bitches reputation. The statistics say you probably won't get twelve exact pups from the same litter in personality and looks, you gonna use TWELVE of them? All twelve got a purpose? Oh, wait, I forgot we just drown the other eleven, we call it "culling" no need for those. I understand how you think things should be but like I've said before, this ain't fantasy land. You can't control people and what they do. You can hate it all you want and preach about it all you want but don't hate on everybody that doesnt share your view of things. 
I've shown horses most my life and if you think I don't know how "breeding" and politics pan out in the show ring...guess again. I've seen weanlings place in halter just because they were off a stud owned by the judge or friend of the judge. I'm positive dog "breeding" works the same way. I've already watched friends dogs being promoted right here just because.

Designer dogs, well again they are for a purpose. Like the purpose or not there are people that want a dog for nothing more than the way it looks, it's size, it's personality, companionship . Not everyone "uses" a dog for work. Those were the old days, a thing of the past. Why do you think we have certain toy breeds? 
I QUIT ASKING about history and such when I kept finding INACCURATE AND CONFLICTING info in what I was being given. When I found more OPINION than I found FACTS
When the "teachers" were rude and the only thing they seemed to want to teach about or talk about was "fighting a dog" or "how crappy your dog must be because of the bloodlines". 
To get respect, you gotta give respect and you gotta earn respect. Believe me there are those here I respect and WILL ASK, they EARNED it.

I have to laugh at the "honest" dog remark, seeing how they are a terrier and bulldog cross themselves. When did they make that "honest" status? How many years did that take? Where the bulldog or terrier people upset about it?


----------



## william williamson

what is the price of something,and what is the worth of something.
you can sell 2 dogs.1, A bully, the other an APBT.
you get 5 grand for each one.
the APBT is line bred, redboy/Jocko,from game stock,ancestrally A game dog,transitioned to other work arenas and excelled.he is worth 5 grand.
the bully,well,it's RE and Gotti.it's credentials,looks good on A leash,and in videos facing off.is it worth 5 grand?or is it valued at 5 grand for it's ability to stand still or snap at another dog because some one got suckered?


----------



## Novakkennels

THIS IS NOT DIRECTED TOWARD ANYONE SPECIFICALLY...This thread was started on byb's right?Byb's breed to line their pockets right?....Well if anyone thinks that Patrick,Boudreaux,Faron or any old school dogman bred just for the better of the breed(Which is what a responsible breeder should do!) your wrong.20 30 40 yrs of hands on expierience means nothing if your dog blind.What does Garner charge for a dog nowadays, and if you pay more of your hard earned moneyfor a dog, than you might be a little more responsible with it. Like it or not the best thing anyone can do to preserve this breed is to positively educate not sit and argue on a computer.


----------



## Novakkennels

Nothing bred today in the pitbull world is bred for a purpose unless you hunt hog...Testing a dog is illegal as it should be!So your apbt is more than likely "a pretty dog"......I own dogs from game lines, however I can accept the fact that they are just "petbulls'.


----------



## Rudy4747

I think the point that the apbt people are trying to make is that designer breeds are "invented" with no purpose. ther was already watered down blocky pits, called amstaffs. most desiner dogs are pointless breeds and rely on true breeds to make seales.


----------



## william williamson

Novakkennels said:


> THIS IS NOT DIRECTED TOWARD ANYONE SPECIFICALLY...This thread was started on byb's right?Byb's breed to line their pockets right?....Well if anyone thinks that Patrick,Boudreaux,Faron or any old school dogman bred just for the better of the breed(Which is what a responsible breeder should do!) your wrong.20 30 40 yrs of hands on expierience means nothing if your dog blind.What does Garner charge for a dog nowadays, and if you pay more of your hard earned moneyfor a dog, than you might be a little more responsible with it. Like it or not the best thing anyone can do to preserve this breed is to positively educate not sit and argue on a computer.


PIT bull,what was a PIT bulls primary purpose?
to be PIT bulls.which are descendants of bull bear and lion dogs.then used for/by the butcher.
they bred dogs that were refined to their primary purpose.
question,were you there 20-30-40 years ago?
what is dog blind?
and dogmen gave away some dogs that were not quitters,they just didn't par up to their purpose.many would scratch all night long and were game,just not worthy opponents.
they were farmed out.not sold.
and heck,they could have been sold as game and be worth more than ego extensions or video movie stars.
yet the vid,movie stars are like many actors,they run on looks first.
oh,and don't think that your capitalized first sentence is foolin anyone,it ain't.
and nova kennels,what primarily do you serve as A "breed"?
do you have a mix of pit bulls bred for bully looks?do you breed strictly bully,
and you mentione having game lineage,are they being injected out to the propogation of bullys or to perpetuate the breed standard APBT?
and assaulting folks who come onto A computer,known zippo zappo zilcho where they come/came from,what lifes events took place that they are doin this vs. what YOU think they/we/me/I should be doin.
ya might wanna back that up from the cliff.
you know nothing about me,what I've farmed out,rescued,or paid for out of my pocket over the last 33 years of dog ownership,breeding,hunting,gaming,pullin and even shown a few on novice.
I've worked with oodles of pit owners personally on/with issues and have had great success on a personal level.
and never have I made A dime above the needs of the animals to be met.
and when I bred dogs,I made what it took to keep dogs.
my home,drag bikes and other toys and family stuff and even some dog stuff came from sweat.


----------



## coppermare

william williamson said:


> what is the price of something,and what is the worth of something.
> you can sell 2 dogs.1, A bully, the other an APBT.
> you get 5 grand for each one.
> the APBT is line bred, redboy/Jocko,from game stock,ancestrally A game dog,transitioned to other work arenas and excelled.he is worth 5 grand.
> the bully,well,it's RE and Gotti.it's credentials,looks good on A leash,and in videos facing off.is it worth 5 grand?or is it valued at 5 grand for it's ability to stand still or snap at another dog because some one got suckered?


How many ways to say this: "one man's trash is another man's treasure"
If I bought you for what I thought you were worth and sold you for what you thought you were worth, I'd be rich I'm sure. 
If a mercedes was 5 grand and a dually truck was five grand. Does that mean the mercedes is better, can the truck do more, guess that depends on what I wish to do doesnt do? which is prettier, beauty in the eye of the beholder? Value as to what someone wants with it, or what they like? Your point is mute here. I've had mutts I thought were priceless! Value as in a bluebook? Who is to determine value except the buyer and the seller.


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> I think the point that the apbt people are trying to make is that designer breeds are "invented" with no purpose. ther was already watered down blocky pits, called amstaffs. most desiner dogs are pointless breeds and rely on true breeds to make seales.


Arent the amstaff and the pit the same dog? At least that is what history says. And like I said before "purpose" can be anything from a companion, pet, to a seeing eye dog, therapy dog ect. 
purpose: 
1. The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal: "And ever those, who would enjoyment gain/Must find it in the purpose they pursue" (Sarah Josepha Hale).
2. A result or effect that is intended or desired; an intention. See synonyms at intention.
I'd say that means designer dogs of any form have a purpose. Some people strive for different goals, aspects, enjoyment. I'd say Dave of RE obtained his desired result or intention.
All breeds relied on another breed at some point to become what they are basically.


----------



## coppermare

Novakkennels said:


> Nothing bred today in the pitbull world is bred for a purpose unless you hunt hog...Testing a dog is illegal as it should be!So your apbt is more than likely "a pretty dog"......I own dogs from game lines, however I can accept the fact that they are just "petbulls'.


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
not bred at least for the purpose they were intended for. As MOST breeds are no longer used for their intended purpose. 
I got a GSD but no sheep.....ohhhhhhhhh noooooo he's useless
I got a Weimaraner but I don't hunt bear or boar...ohhhhhhh noooo he's useless. There just isn't a purpose in having him:roll::roll:


----------



## buzhunter

CM, it's ok to feed a pet, it's wrong to breed a pet. My opinion of course, but I'd urge you to bounce that philosophy off every ethical breeder you can find. 

Nova kennels, the sun does not rise and set in the USA, (too bad, I know) there are plenty of honest dogs all over the world and places where breeding honest dogs is perfectly legal.


----------



## buzhunter

By the way, there's 13,359 members here. Can you think of a more efficient venue to educate?


----------



## wild_deuce03

buzhunter said:


> By the way, there's 13,359 members here. Can you think of a more efficient venue to educate?


+1000 I'm loving this thread. Great commentary by both sides, IMO.


----------



## coppermare

buzhunter said:


> CM, it's ok to feed a pet, it's wrong to breed a pet. My opinion of course, but I'd urge you to bounce that philosophy off every ethical breeder you can find.
> 
> Nova kennels, the sun does not rise and set in the USA, (too bad, I know) there are plenty of honest dogs all over the world and places where breeding honest dogs is perfectly legal.


Now your talking pet quality within a breed instead of a breed being bred for no purpose other than to be a pet.


----------



## william williamson

I'm putting myself into timeout on this.thanks to EVERYONE,it actually dosed me with A reality check.
at the end of the day,it ain't the dogs fault.
and years ago when i picked up ANY dog,it was about getting it healthy and rehoming it.
and now,my concern is for,any dog.
I still am a bulldog though.waving bye bye,


----------



## MISSAPBT

Novakkennels said:


> Nothing bred today in the pitbull world is bred for a purpose unless you hunt hog


This statement is totally false!

Yeah it may be illegal but so are drugs, thats like saying there are no drugs in the world and nobody does then coz they are illegal.


----------



## Rudy4747

coppermare said:


> Arent the amstaff and the pit the same dog? At least that is what history says. And like I said before "purpose" can be anything from a companion, pet, to a seeing eye dog, therapy dog ect.
> purpose:
> 1. The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal: "And ever those, who would enjoyment gain/Must find it in the purpose they pursue" (Sarah Josepha Hale).
> 2. A result or effect that is intended or desired; an intention. See synonyms at intention.
> I'd say that means designer dogs of any form have a purpose. Some people strive for different goals, aspects, enjoyment. I'd say Dave of RE obtained his desired result or intention.
> All breeds relied on another breed at some point to become what they are basically.


history does say that they came from the same line but the same history will state that because of so many years being separate. there for different breeds. with seperate standards.


----------



## MISSAPBT

found this someone done an essay



> To me, whether they (the amstaff and APBT) are two different breeds, depends on which hat I am wearing. My scientific hat defines the Amstaff as a strain of APBT that has been given a new family name. The owner/breeder who has dabbled in both worlds says that they ARE differnt breeds because of functional and structural selection.
> 
> I feel that as a strain or family, derived from the APBT, the the average Amstaff has lost much of what a pit bull was "functionally derived" to possess. Although this often relates to temperament, it also relates to true working type (functional form). The Amstaff has been selected for many decades for "ring gait" (that perfect "Dog Steps" movement) and for eye appealing exaggerations of head and shoulders (this is what happens to most show breeds). This is assuredly a generalizing statement and i am the first to admit I have seen amstaffs with wonderful working type and temperament.
> 
> The rest of this essay deals with the scientific relationship of breeds.
> 
> Scientifically, the Amstaff is a strain of APBT that has been selectively bred for 70 years for a certain look and movement. They were also given a new name.


----------



## Lvis

wild_deuce03 said:


> +1000 I'm loving this thread. Great commentary by both sides, IMO.


all thanks to meeeeeee


----------



## Rudy4747

Lvis said:


> all thanks to meeeeeee


Was wondering were you went and when you would come back.


----------



## Lvis

Rudy4747 said:


> Was wondering were you went and when you would come back.


i just like to read and observe ..... got the popcorn out


----------



## coppermare

Quote:
To me, whether they (the amstaff and APBT) are two different breeds, depends on which hat I am wearing. My scientific hat defines the Amstaff as a strain of APBT that has been given a new family name. The owner/breeder who has dabbled in both worlds says that they ARE differnt breeds because of functional and structural selection.

I feel that as a strain or family, derived from the APBT, the the average Amstaff has lost much of what a pit bull was "functionally derived" to possess. Although this often relates to temperament, it also relates to true working type (functional form). The Amstaff has been selected for many decades for "ring gait" (that perfect "Dog Steps" movement) and for eye appealing exaggerations of head and shoulders (this is what happens to most show breeds). This is assuredly a generalizing statement and i am the first to admit I have seen amstaffs with wonderful working type and temperament.

The rest of this essay deals with the scientific relationship of breeds.

Scientifically, the Amstaff is a strain of APBT that has been selectively bred for 70 years for a certain look and movement. They were also given a new name.

I'm gettin a little bored. Heck, I think I've even forgotten what the beginning was even about...but.......anyways..let's argue this one.
That makes sense. So the AKC wanted the "fight" and the stigma away from them and that purpose was served. They improved (in some's opinion, I'd be one of them) on the looks of the dog also. The gait, I don't know. As long as the gait didn't intefere with the dogs conformation or way of going I wouldn't worry about it. But they still were orginally the same dog. The same DNA. As a matter of fact you could venture to say they are more pure. If you took 500 APBT's and of those 500 said that these 200 are going to be AKC reg. and called AMSTAFFS. The 300 left are bred and linebred and so on for years. The 200 are done the same. And we know that those 200 since they are now registered with AKC (supposedly in a on the level world) are ONLY bred to registered dogs because of paperwork then they would seem to be more pure.

If this history stands to reasoning:
It was the cross between the Bulldog and the terrier that resulted in the Staffordshire Terrier, which was originally called the Bull-and-Terrier Dog, Half and Half, and at times Pit Dog or Pit Builterrier. Later, it assumed the name in England of Staffordshire Bull Terrier. These dogs began to find their way into America as early as 1870, where they became known as Pit Dog, Pit Bull Terrier, later American Bull Terrier, and still later as Yankee Terrier.

In 1936, they were accepted for registration in the AKC Stud Book as Staffordshire Terriers. The name of the breed was revised effective January 1, 1972 to American Staffordshire Terrier. Breeders in this country had developed a type which is heavier in weight than the Staffordshire Bull Terrier of England and the name change was to distinguish them as separate breeds.
Sometime during the nineteenth century, dog fanciers in England, Ireland, and Scotland began to experiment with crosses between Bulldogs and Terriers, looking for a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the Bulldog. The result was a dog that embodied all of the virtues attributed to great warriors: strength, indomitable courage, and gentleness with loved ones. Immigrants brought these bull and terrier crosses to the United States. The American Pit Bull Terrier's many talents did not go unnoticed by farmers and ranchers who used their APBTs for protection, as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions. Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Tracking, Agility, Protection, and Weight Pulls, as well as Conformation.

The United Kennel Club was the first registry to recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier. U.K.C. founder C. Z. Bennett assigned U.K.C. registration number 1 to his own APBT, Bennett's Ring in 1898. 
This leads me to believe the Staffordshire Bull Terrier turned into the Staffordshire Terrier and then into the American Staffordshire terrier. And a lot of bullies sure look like Staffordshire Bull Terriers!! Look at the pictures. 
So then are they saying they began at some point to again experiment with the bulldog/terrier cross and in the 19th century got the APBT? And if that is true then how could Bennett's Ring be registered as the first APBT in 1898???

If you look at "one of your own's" working apbt sites it reads:
working pitbull.com
There is some terrier blood in the modern pit bull. Terrier blood was added, just as mastiff blood was also added. This explains why some lines of pit bulls are quite "bully" in build, and at the larger end of the standard, while others are quite "light" in build, and may weigh as little as 25 pounds. However, the pit bull is a "bulldog" in action and appearance. He is a gripping dog - not a terrier (which means "Earth dog" which pursues its quarry underground. 
Now either they are saying mastiff is in APBT'S or that BULLY'S are pit bulls............hmmmm


----------



## MISSAPBT

coppermare said:


> If you look at "one of your own's" working apbt sites it reads:
> working pitbull.com
> There is some terrier blood in the modern pit bull. Terrier blood was added, just as mastiff blood was also added. This explains why some lines of pit bulls are quite "bully" in build, and at the larger end of the standard, while others are quite "light" in build, and may weigh as little as 25 pounds. However, the pit bull is a "bulldog" in action and appearance. He is a gripping dog - not a terrier (which means "Earth dog" which pursues its quarry underground.
> Now either they are saying mastiff is in APBT'S or that BULLY'S are pit bulls............hmmmm


Firstly WTF is Modern Pitbull, its either a American Pitbull Terrier...yes TERRIER, am american bully, the apbt has always had terrier, its the terrier/bulldog that created the apbt.

Also the statement "mastiff added This explains why some lines of pit bulls are quite "bully" in build" an apbt x mastiff is a mutt, crossbrred or mongral whatever you want to call it! Yes Bullys were created from this but thats over many years, that fine, but people canot go around saying that apbt has had mastiff blood in it, coz its wrong.

People think if they breed a APBT and a mastiff then they are creating bullys, FAIL! EPIC FAIL

Coppermare i will have to go have a look on that site coz that is utter ****


----------



## Rudy4747

i am soory but you can post all these long posts that say there a was mastiff blood in apbt, or any other 1000 word posts. mastiff blood is in all bulldogs. Still the point you dance around is that there was no reason for the bully or any other designer breed to be made besides to make money off of people who know no better than throw it away.


----------



## coppermare

MISSAPBT said:


> Firstly WTF is Modern Pitbull, its either a American Pitbull Terrier...yes TERRIER, am american bully, the apbt has always had terrier, its the terrier/bulldog that created the apbt.
> 
> Also the statement "mastiff added This explains why some lines of pit bulls are quite "bully" in build" an apbt x mastiff is a mutt, crossbrred or mongral whatever you want to call it! Yes Bullys were created from this but thats over many years, that fine, but people canot go around saying that apbt has had mastiff blood in it, coz its wrong.
> 
> People think if they breed a APBT and a mastiff then they are creating bullys, FAIL! EPIC FAIL
> 
> Coppermare i will have to go have a look on that site coz that is utter ****


Ummm that was a quote from that Diane Jessup lady....LOL...workingpitbull.com:clap:


----------



## Rudy4747

Note the pic showing ( on the site ) the difference in bully and apbt. Funny that she chose the "blinged " out bully. I would add that bully is even a modiste bully.


----------



## MISSAPBT

Clapping at yourself, well done, pat yourself on the back!!

You beleive that blabber do you?? You are going to be the one contributing if you go repeat that to someone!! She cant even use the term pitbull, when its a bully, she calls a mastiff x apbt a apbt.???!?!?!?!?!?!
Dont beleive everything your read, go search Dianes name in some forums, people express there feelings on her.

Shes as bad as the people calling there bullies a APBT.


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> i am soory but you can post all these long posts that say there a was mastiff blood in apbt, or any other 1000 word posts. mastiff blood is in all bulldogs.  Still the point you dance around is that there was no reason for the bully or any other designer breed to be made besides to make money off of people who know no better than throw it away.


umm your co-hort above is denying mastiff blood in apbt, and your saying it's in all bulldogs...ya'll need to get your stuff together I think. I have not danced around anything. I've already explained to you the reason for the bully and or any designer breed. It fulfills a purpose, which ya'll said it doesnt. And it's business or economics 101...supply and demand.


----------



## coppermare

MISSAPBT said:


> Clapping at yourself, well done, pat yourself on the back!!
> 
> You beleive that blabber do you?? You are going to be the one contributing if you go repeat that to someone!! She cant even use the term pitbull, when its a bully, she calls a mastiff x apbt a apbt.???!?!?!?!?!?!
> Dont beleive everything your read, go search Dianes name in some forums, people express there feelings on her.
> 
> Shes as bad as the people calling there bullies a APBT.


LOL I didn't say I believed any of it did I? I'm showing you what research is getting me. Seems this breed can't even agree on what, where, how or when. How do you expect to educate anyone? Seems everyone's "history" is different....so does that mean it's mostly "opinions"? LOL


----------



## MISSAPBT

fair enough and i think shes full of poop!

Internet is not a good place to research at times, because of the false information, i have many of books and DVD at home from gamedogs history ect i guess thats why its my specialty. (

I go out in sypathy (well not really lol) for people who want to resech the ambully. Is there any books out on this breed?? just curious.


----------



## coppermare

Don't sweat it..she seems to have some high credentials.
Program Founder/Director/Trainer: Diane Jessup is author of The Working Pit Bull, The Dog Who Spoke With Gods, and co-author of Colby's Book of the American Pit Bull Terrier. She has authored hundreds of articles on dog care, aggression, behavior and training. A certified Police K9 Instructor since 1979, Diane has put over 60 training titles on her dogs in areas such as French ring, schutzhund, tracking, herding (with pit bulls) obedience, and weight pulling. An expert witness in US courts on police K9s as well as dog and **** fighting, she has been POST certified in dog and **** fighting and dog aggression/public safety. Diane has been a featured speaker in five countries for law enforcement and animal control agencies. She and her dogs have been featured on numerous television programs including: the Oprah Show, McNeil/Lehrer News, 48 Hours, The O'Reilly Show, Bryant Gumble's Eye on America and CNN News. She has also trained and owned dogs which have been used in several major motion pictures. She is retired from 20+ years as an animal control officer.
And she does go on to seperate the bully and the apbt...she's the one with the diss pic of them
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup
But I will say that apbt she has in the other pic of this has a pretty big gator lookin head to me. You will like that link, click on it...hahaha
Now look at this one
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup
See the dog in the bottom pic..the black and white one? It kinda looks like an american bulldog to me! Webster's Joker "a fighting dog 43 pounds"


----------



## Rudy4747

coppermare said:


> umm your co-hort above is denying mastiff blood in apbt, and your saying it's in all bulldogs...ya'll need to get your stuff together I think. I have not danced around anything. I've already explained to you the reason for the bully and or any designer breed. It fulfills a purpose, which ya'll said it doesnt. And it's business or economics 101...supply and demand.


First thing i want to say is I am loving this post, hope you guys are too. So for both of you guys Bull and Terrier Breeds (American Staffordshire Terrier, Pit bull terrier, Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier)
Education is the key this page will tell you what you should know about the abpt amstaff discussion and if you go over to see the history of the bulldogs you will see that indeed there was mastiff in the creation of bulldogs. i call it a street hustle sell crap to the unsuspecting. But I guess i will go back and find the reason. I liked the discussion enough to follow at work, on my phone witch is so hard cause my phone sucks.


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> First thing i want to say is I am loving this post, hope you guys are too. So for both of you guys Bull and Terrier Breeds (American Staffordshire Terrier, Pit bull terrier, Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier)
> Education is the key this page will tell you what you should know about the abpt amstaff discussion and if you go over to see the history of the bulldogs you will see that indeed there was mastiff in the creation of bulldogs. i call it a street hustle sell crap to the unsuspecting. But I guess i will go back and find the reason. I liked the discussion enough to follow at work, on my phone witch is so hard cause my phone sucks.


I will go look, but I gotta say YA'LL YOUNGINS ARE WEARIN MY OLD ARSE OUT!!


----------



## MISSAPBT

Even the likes of this page, good information but the picture top and bottom and not relevant American Pit Bull Terrier

I have to admit Coppermare, you are wearing me out too! i have to say you are putting up a good debate 
You bloody Americans always have to have the last word, little old Kiwi here is trying her best.


----------



## Rudy4747

Designer dogs, well again they are for a purpose. Like the purpose or not there are people that want a dog for nothing more than the way it looks, it's size, it's personality, companionship . Not everyone "uses" a dog for work. Those were the old days, a thing of the past. Why do you think we have certain toy breeds? 
I QUIT ASKING about history and such when I kept finding INACCURATE AND CONFLICTING info in what I was being given. When I found more OPINION than I found FACTS
When the "teachers" were rude and the only thing they seemed to want to teach about or talk about was "fighting a dog" or "how crappy your dog must be because of the bloodlines". 
To get respect, you gotta give respect and you gotta earn respect. Believe me there are those here I respect and WILL ASK, they EARNED it.
May have quoted to much. But this is not purpose. This is just people that are to lazy to research the dog that would be right for them.


----------



## Rudy4747

coppermare said:


> I will go look, but I gotta say YA'LL YOUNGINS ARE WEARIN MY OLD ARSE OUT!!


I am just having fun but say the word and I'll set you free (from my debate)


----------



## Rudy4747

MISSAPBT said:


> Even the likes of this page, good information but the picture top and bottom and not relevant American Pit Bull Terrier
> 
> I have to admit Coppermare, you are wearing me out too! i have to say you are putting up a good debate
> You bloody Americans always have to have the last word, little old Kiwi here is trying her best.


What pictures?


----------



## MISSAPBT




----------



## coppermare

Missy, that's your new name because when I was little and thought I was doing something smart she'd call me miss priss or missy...meant your getting in over your head but your cute doing it..lol
Now see, even that site contradicts history...how do you expect me to learn anything when nothing is the same!!!!
Rudy....the pic I'm referring to is on the Diane Jessup site...I'm not sure what missy is talking about the blue pup on that link she gave or what?


----------



## Rudy4747

sorry thought yo were talking about the links I posted.


----------



## coppermare

MISSAPBT said:


>


So what's up with these pics?


----------



## Rudy4747

when i wanted to learn the history of the apbt I thought it smart to learn the history of both the bulldog ( in general) and the tarrier. thats why i like the site. because you can find info on the breed your looking for then go on from there.
http://www.bulldoginformation.com/bull-and-terrier-breeds.html


----------



## coppermare

In the link Missy posted none of the dogs look alike yet are all suppose to be apbt's. The stubby dog looks like a dang boston terrier in one pic while some look real "bulldoggy" and other's look bully. The one with the farmer looks almost like the old timey white english


----------



## MISSAPBT

I was just saying that having those pics are not helping as they are not APBT's.

I highly sugest Richard Stratton books CM they are fantastic for apbt history, i am no help with the bully or ast history!


----------



## Rudy4747

MISSAPBT said:


> I was just saying that having those pics are not helping as they are not APBT's.
> 
> I highly sugest Richard Stratton books CM they are fantastic for apbt history, i am no help with the bully or ast history!


bully history is still to be determined.:roll:


----------



## MISSAPBT

I guess its not really "History" yet huh

I think this explains alot  http://dogs.about.com/cs/breedprofiles/a/pitbull_history.htm


----------



## coppermare

I like the bullies and the amstaffs...no offense but not interested in the apbt history. I just have enough on my plate with horses and dogs and work and plants and grandkids, and life in general....
Yes, I believe we are a part of history in some weird sorta way with bullies. And I'm already seeing the making of the future. In other words if I'm alive twenty years from now and have became involved in them as deep as ya'll are in the apbt's then it could very well be me sitting here saying exactly what you are saying about the breed. I say this because I really love the look of the "clean" amstaff, pitterstaff, xl bully or whatever description...(I know the look in my head) I already believe Dave Wilson has caved from his orginal dream standard. That is why when I say I like the old school RE and when people say you'll be hard pressed to find a dog that looks like the pic I posted of Panik or Thunder then I'm already beginning to see the position you hold.


----------



## MISSAPBT

I see where you are coming from, I dont have a problem with the clean looking bullys you are talking about they look well and healthy, its the deformed sad looking mutations i have a problem with and the names people are using for them, like you, i have no intrest in the bullys as you do to the apbt. I would never in my life own one but good on the well bred bullys! Its a shame there are people out there ruining it and putting a bad name to good ones!
Some Ambully owners will swear black and blue that they are ast x apbt ONLY. which is clearly not the case when looking at the ones they are pointing the statement at.


----------



## Rudy4747

Aww well i will say that i like the look of the older bullies as well and the bully girl i have only has the oldest re in her and see is a world apart from the dogs you see when you google am bully. i love her. even though i am gamebred fan, I would never trade her


----------



## max

So far, here is what I've learned from this thread.

American Bully - bred for looks and style ( unacceptable to some people because they don't like the idea why they bred such a thing, how dare they call it a Pit Bull)
APBT - Are cool, has a very long history of good breeding from different countries and recorded generations. (People say, you shouldn't be calling the American Bully, pit bulls because they are not, "you're ruining the reputation of a true Pit Bulls. Bully's don't do anything, they just sit or stand and smile for the camera)

My conclusion... I love APBT, I can teach my pit bull obedience and skills so easily. They are amazing. They are like sponge, they absorb what you teach them so quick. As for American Bully, I'm getting one next year. A breeder (I know personally) has offered to give me a pup for free when I'm ready. And I will equally teach and treat this Bully the same, as what I did to my Pit Bull. I will train them equally and I will not care if one is not capable of performing the same, as long as that dog was given the same opportunity.


----------



## wild_deuce03

MISSAPBT said:


> I have to admit Coppermare, you are wearing me out too! i have to say you are putting up a good debate
> You bloody Americans always have to have the last word, little old Kiwi here is trying her best.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:Now that was a good post!!! LOL!!! Too funny!


----------



## bluefamily

*partly*

part of the problem with today's byb (who doesn't compete is sanctioned sporting events) is the ultimate _goal_ of the breeding program.
Back when Maurice, Mr. Colby, Floyd and Mountain Man himself were starting out, they had a goal to IMPROVE the breed. They had a sport to work towards and advance in. Now that sport is illeagal and the population of dogs has increased thousand fold. Therefore I can imagine for those that do not compete in sanctionoed sports are directionless _except _to make money. jmho.


----------



## wild_deuce03

MISSAPBT said:


> I see where you are coming from, I dont have a problem with the clean looking bullys you are talking about they look well and healthy, its the deformed sad looking mutations i have a problem with and the names people are using for them, like you, i have no intrest in the bullys as you do to the apbt. I would never in my life own one but good on the well bred bullys! Its a shame there are people out there ruining it and putting a bad name to good ones!
> Some Ambully owners will swear black and blue that they are ast x apbt ONLY. which is clearly not the case when looking at the ones they are pointing the statement at.


Finally, I agree with one of your posts in this thread! LOL! :hug:

But seriously, I have really enjoyed reading this thread. Again, I see both sides of the equation here. :woof:


----------



## wild_deuce03

bluefamily said:


> part of the problem with today's byb (who doesn't compete is sanctioned sporting events) is the ultimate _goal_ of the breeding program.
> Back when Maurice, Mr. Colby, Floyd and Mountain Man himself were starting out, they had a goal to IMPROVE the breed. They had a sport to work towards and advance in. Now that sport is illeagal and the population of dogs has increased thousand fold. Therefore I can imagine for those that do not compete in sanctionoed sports are directionless _except _to make money. jmho.


I can see that, but let me throw this out there. From the VERY little I know, a Bully is a new breed (last 20 years or so I think). I'm quite sure it took the APBT quite some time to get what was wanted. I highly doubt the first litters popped out in the first decade or two aren't what the APBT proponents in this thread are talking about today or the last 30 years or so.

So IMO, APBT have had quite some time to get the desired outcome. Give the Bully some time and I'm sure we'll come to a set standard as well.


----------



## wild_deuce03

> Designer dogs, well again they are for a purpose. Like the purpose or not there are people that want a dog for nothing more than the way it looks, it's size, it's personality, companionship . Not everyone "uses" a dog for work. Those were the old days, a thing of the past. Why do you think we have certain toy breeds?
> I QUIT ASKING about history and such when I kept finding INACCURATE AND CONFLICTING info in what I was being given. When I found more OPINION than I found FACTS
> When the "teachers" were rude and the only thing they seemed to want to teach about or talk about was "fighting a dog" or "how crappy your dog must be because of the bloodlines".
> To get respect, you gotta give respect and you gotta earn respect. Believe me there are those here I respect and WILL ASK, they EARNED it.





Rudy4747 said:


> May have quoted to much. But this is not purpose. This is just people that are to lazy to research the dog that would be right for them.


I disagree. One person's idea of purpose is different than someone else. Let me use this analogy, bear with me. A Honda Pilot may be a 4WD vehicle, but it's certainly not going to be as good off road as a 4WD Jeep. The Honda still serves a purpose, just not as good a purpose as the Jeep if going off road is what you want to do with that vehicle.

Maybe not the best analogy but I hope you get my point.


----------



## MY MIKADO

One post bothered me CM stated that if s dog had a litter of 12 pup not all of those dog were born for a purpose. This is the difference of a good breeder and a BYB in my opinion. A good breeder would have a certain number of homes lined up BEFORE the breeding even took place. So yes all of those pups were born for a purpose. 

I would have to say that when Colby started out yes he knew what he was doing and he breed the best to the best and all of those little APBT were exactly what he was looking for.


----------



## Rudy4747

wild_deuce03 said:


> I disagree. One person's idea of purpose is different than someone else. Let me use this analogy, bear with me. A Honda Pilot may be a 4WD vehicle, but it's certainly not going to be as good off road as a 4WD Jeep. The Honda still serves a purpose, just not as good a purpose as the Jeep if going off road is what you want to do with that vehicle.
> 
> Maybe not the best analogy but I hope you get my point.


Yeah but you would go get a honda not put a honda body on a jeep frame. in other word invent what you wanted.


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> Yeah but you would go get a honda not put a honda body on a jeep frame. in other word invent what you wanted.


ohhhhhh foul ball here.......Inventing the bully WAS inventing what we wanted.
And YES YOU WOULD GO GET A HONDA AND PUT IT ON A JEEP FRAME...BECAUSE TAKE A LOOK....









Ford on an old army jeep frame...her name is Merle. Want stats? LMAO...she has the "gameness" in that frame but the looks of the ford/truck


----------



## coppermare

max said:


> So far, here is what I've learned from this thread.
> 
> American Bully - bred for looks and style ( unacceptable to some people because they don't like the idea why they bred such a thing, how dare they call it a Pit Bull)
> APBT - Are cool, has a very long history of good breeding from different countries and recorded generations. (People say, you shouldn't be calling the American Bully, pit bulls because they are not, "you're ruining the reputation of a true Pit Bulls. Bully's don't do anything, they just sit or stand and smile for the camera)
> 
> My conclusion... I love APBT, I can teach my pit bull obedience and skills so easily. They are amazing. They are like sponge, they absorb what you teach them so quick. As for American Bully, I'm getting one next year. A breeder (I know personally) has offered to give me a pup for free when I'm ready. And I will equally teach and treat this Bully the same, as what I did to my Pit Bull. I will train them equally and I will not care if one is not capable of performing the same, as long as that dog was given the same opportunity.


I would hope that you learn from life in general that it's not the breed of dog nor the type of dog, but the heart of the dog itself. We have a quarab which is half quarterhorse and half arabian. There was a time I've seen him kick a runnin bred quarterhorse in barrels and take reserve champion over a throughbred and trakehner in hunter/jumper. He's got HEART!!


----------



## wild_deuce03

Rudy4747 said:


> Yeah but you would go get a honda not put a honda body on a jeep frame. in other word invent what you wanted.


Ah, touche! But I would venture to say that the Bully is what was wanted. A standard just hasn't been set from what I can tell.


----------



## coppermare

bluefamily said:


> part of the problem with today's byb (who doesn't compete is sanctioned sporting events) is the ultimate _goal_ of the breeding program.
> Back when Maurice, Mr. Colby, Floyd and Mountain Man himself were starting out, they had a goal to IMPROVE the breed. They had a sport to work towards and advance in. Now that sport is illeagal and the population of dogs has increased thousand fold. Therefore I can imagine for those that do not compete in sanctionoed sports are directionless _except _to make money. jmho.


Not all breeders compete. I can only take this one back to horses to try to explain. Years ago, my dream was to breed the perfect halter horse/working horse. Those two worlds are very seperated. There were halter horses that were awesome but wouldn't know how to work a day in their life. Beauty without brains nor aptitude. I studied bloodlines, looked at pictures, watched the offspring, looked at stats. Finally I came upon the two bloodlines I wanted and believed in crossing. But then, life took over, I grew up and that was that. Years later, guess what? That cross is one of the top producing, winning horses in cutting horse history. Point is, my interest while not in showing was a goal toward creating something that had looks and could also perform. IMHO a halter breeder's goal is the perfect horse. We know that no such perfection exist but it's the goal or pupose. Some breeders "direction" is the perfection such as this. Conformation. Some "show" animals sport or direction is nothing more than perfection of the conformation or breed standard. It is a competition within themselves. While your busy enjoying the stage with the lights he's busy studying pedigrees, bloodlines, pictures, points and the like. They have no need for the "limelight" but you can bet the people that do like center stage rely on these breeders to give them the end product to compete with.


----------



## coppermare

I didn't realize so many lurkers were in this thread!!


----------



## coppermare

wild_deuce03 said:


> Ah, touche! But I would venture to say that the Bully is what was wanted. A standard just hasn't been set from what I can tell.


There is a standard...and I'm pleased to say there will be some that fall "short" no pun intended of fitting that standard.....
Breed Standard: American Bully

General Impression
The American Bully should give the impression of massive strength as well as athletic ability. A medium size dog with a exceptionally muscular and powerful body.

Head
The head is large and of medium length, broad skull, very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop, short foreface and high set ears.

The head appears to have been chiseled, combining strength, elegance and character. Should give the impression of enormous power, but should not be disproportionate to the overall size of the body.

Fault : Head too small or disproportionate to the body.

Muzzle
Broad and of medium to medium short in length, tapers slightly from the head to the nose.

Jaws
The jaws are well defined, square and should have a razor sharp or chiseled appearance. Lips are close and even, some looseness in the jowls accepted, but not to be favored.


Bite
The American Bully has a complete set of large, evenly spaced, white teeth. The preferred bite is a scissor or even bite. A reverse scissor or slight undershot should be considered non preferred.

Fault : The badly undershot or overshot bite is a serious fault. Wry jaw is a disqualifying fault.

Nose
Nose all colors acceptable. The nose should be a solid color. Lacking pigment should be considered non preferred.

Fault : A nose lacking all pigment is a disqualifying fault.

Ears
Set high, natural or cropped. If natural, semi-prick or rose are preferred. Prick or flat, wide ears are non preferred.

Eyes
Round, wide apart, deeply set and of moderate size. Any color is acceptable. However, odd eyes (one dark, one blue or light) should be considered non preferred. Lacking pigment around the eyes is undesirable.

Neck
The neck should appear strong and muscular, clean in outline and gradually widening toward the shoulders. No looseness of skin. Medium to short in length.

Shoulders
Strong and muscular with blades wide and sloping.

Body
Moderately short in length. Slight rise from shoulders to rump, level back is just as acceptable.
Ribs should be well sprung (rounded) and the chest wide, broad and deep.

Fault : Too narrow in the chest.

Tail
The tail is undocked, of medium length, low set, tapering to a point and carried rather low. It should not curl much and may be likened to an old-fashioned pump handle.

Fault: A tail that is too long, badly curled or screwed.

Color
Any color or combination of colors is acceptable except merle.

Coat
The coat should be smooth, short, glossy and close to the skin.

Height
Males - 17 to 20 inches at the shoulder. Females - 17 to 19 inches at the shoulder. 


Forequarters
Legs should straight, well boned and muscular. Set rather far apart, without looseness at the shoulders and showing no weakness at the pasterns. Bowing, turned out or turned in resulting in poor movement is to be discouraged and considered non-preferred.

Hindquarters
The hindquarters should be well muscled, hocks let down with stifles well bent with good angulation. 
Legs should be parallel when viewed from behind, turning neither in nor out.

Feet
Round and the pasterns should be strong and tight.

Fault : Down in the pasterns or splayed feet.

Gait
Free, powerful and agile with little effort. Legs moving parallel when viewed from front or rear. The breed displays evident power and drive from the hind legs.


----------



## bluefamily

*more to consider*



coppermare said:


> Not all breeders compete. I can only take this one back to horses to try to explain. Years ago, my dream was to breed the perfect halter horse/working horse. Those two worlds are very seperated. There were halter horses that were awesome but wouldn't know how to work a day in their life. Beauty without brains nor aptitude. I studied bloodlines, looked at pictures, watched the offspring, looked at stats. Finally I came upon the two bloodlines I wanted and believed in crossing. But then, life took over, I grew up and that was that. Years later, guess what? That cross is one of the top producing, winning horses in cutting horse history. Point is, my interest while not in showing was a goal toward creating something that had looks and could also perform. IMHO a halter breeder's goal is the perfect horse. We know that no such perfection exist but it's the goal or pupose. Some breeders "direction" is the perfection such as this. Conformation. Some "show" animals sport or direction is nothing more than perfection of the conformation or breed standard. It is a competition within themselves. While your busy enjoying the stage with the lights he's busy studying pedigrees, bloodlines, pictures, points and the like. They have no need for the "limelight" but you can bet the people that do like center stage rely on these breeders to give them the end product to compete with.


Well said.... I also have found this remark by Wild Deuce 02 contemplative
"_I can see that, but let me throw this out there. From the VERY little I know, a Bully is a new breed (last 20 years or so I think). I'm quite sure it took the APBT quite some time to get what was wanted. I highly doubt the first litters popped out in the first decade or two aren't what the APBT proponents in this thread are talking about today or the last 30 years or so.

So IMO, APBT have had quite some time to get the desired outcome. Give the Bully some time and I'm sure we'll come to a set standard as well_"

So as a whole where does this leave us as a community? Should we bash each other in public when legislation is trying to shut us down one dog headline at a time or publically educate to the best of our abilities letting the good behavior of our dogs speak for themselves?

A lot of folks who breed frequently ARE unfortunately our for the money only. Given time they will get tired of it and sell out. The rest of us will hang in there and keep working and keep trying to bring out the best in our dogs. Keep waging the good fight everyone. These are well thought out remarks that I can appreciate.


----------



## coppermare

bluefamily said:


> Well said.... I also have found this remark by Wild Deuce 02 contemplative
> "_I can see that, but let me throw this out there. From the VERY little I know, a Bully is a new breed (last 20 years or so I think). I'm quite sure it took the APBT quite some time to get what was wanted. I highly doubt the first litters popped out in the first decade or two aren't what the APBT proponents in this thread are talking about today or the last 30 years or so.
> 
> So IMO, APBT have had quite some time to get the desired outcome. Give the Bully some time and I'm sure we'll come to a set standard as well_"
> 
> So as a whole where does this leave us as a community? Should we bash each other in public when legislation is trying to shut us down one dog headline at a time or publically educate to the best of our abilities letting the good behavior of our dogs speak for themselves?
> 
> A lot of folks who breed frequently ARE unfortunately our for the money only. Given time they will get tired of it and sell out. The rest of us will hang in there and keep working and keep trying to bring out the best in our dogs. Keep waging the good fight everyone. These are well thought out remarks that I can appreciate.


I agree, and .....LOL I've already been looking at the pedigree posted by Rosewood because I was very attracted to that dog. And I've looked at some by I believe it was Lionsgate. And I know one of my dog's that I really likes pedigree and find they all three traced back to one certian breeder or bloodline. I know better than to get involved in this but that "fever" that I spoke of with horses and breeding is taking over:hammer: It's like an addiction to developing and "eye" for traits and seeing if they are true. Opening up the pedigree is like opening a gift and seeing if you got what you really wanted. (If your guessing was right) Does that make any sense????


----------



## Rudy4747

Ahuh, duce what exsactly is what they wanted when they broubht bullies into play. big amstaffs? and coppermare that looks like some one just couldnt afford the 4x4 they wanted so they made one, it is hardley a honda. none the less it is an eye sore. why not a ford frame.


----------



## wild_deuce03

Rudy4747 said:


> Ahuh, duce what exsactly is what they wanted when they broubht bullies into play. big amstaffs? and coppermare that looks like some one just couldnt afford the 4x4 they wanted so they made one, it is hardley a honda. none the less it is an eye sore. why not a ford frame.


LOL! I have no idea what was wanted. Still trying to figure that out. Either way, I like them.

As far as my Honda analogy, someone may not buy it to go off road, therefore it's use has a different purpose. They might like the look, features etc, but it can still go off road, just not as well as something else. Someone wanted the feature of 4WD when they created the vehicle, but that was not what it was intended for per se.

Same thing translates to the Bully, IMO. Someone created them for looks, temperament etc (again, from my limited knowledge). A bully can still compete in WP and other events but it won't do as well as an APBT (from what a number of people say here). That doesn't mean the Bully is worthless.


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> Ahuh, duce what exsactly is what they wanted when they broubht bullies into play. big amstaffs? and coppermare that looks like some one just couldnt afford the 4x4 they wanted so they made one, it is hardley a honda. none the less it is an eye sore. why not a ford frame.


OK, nobody laugh at him now......he's more than likely a city boy or something. ............
:hammer::rofl::rofl::rofl: OBVIOUSLY you have no knowledge of of 4x4's or "muddin" or "pullin" or mechanics. So why bother educating you. 
But, I can put it in YOUR LANGUAGE....I will have pity and try.
Merle is "your" foundation all time gamebred APBT under her lil skirt...outward she is an antique american icon....RE bully....
Granted she needs to be restored now.....but ya get the picture now?

No, but H*** NO would I trade five million any new truck for her.


----------



## wild_deuce03

bluefamily said:


> So as a whole where does this leave us as a community? Should we bash each other in public when legislation is trying to shut us down one dog headline at a time or publically educate to the best of our abilities letting the good behavior of our dogs speak for themselves?


I agree. BSL affects all of us that have "pit" type dogs. I think this thread has been an informative and thought provoking thread, but even if we don't agree on the virtues of a Bully, we still have to agree to work together on BSL and educate the public.



> *A lot of folks who breed frequently ARE unfortunately our for the money only.* Given time they will get tired of it and sell out.


Exactly, but this applies to EVERY type of breed out there. IMO, 5k for ANY type of breed is nuts to pay, no matter the lineage they have! But, unfortunately, they sell them for that price because people will pay for it. *shrugs*


----------



## Rudy4747

coppermare merle was her name? well instead of restoring her to her original beuaty, lets make an obomination of her, why not? but indead she looks very "bully"
oh and also own to trucks one is a new 4x4 dodge and the other is 1985 gmc sierra stepside witch was my fathers truck he bought just before i was born. i have restores it with a 350eddlbrock engein just recently a new rear dif. any how i think i know more about truck then ypu do dogs but that is just my opinion that i bet from you posts thanks


----------



## wild_deuce03

Rudy4747 said:


> coppermare merle was her name? *well instead of restoring her to her original beuaty, lets make an obomination of her, why not? but indead she looks very "bully"*
> oh and also own to trucks one is a new 4x4 dodge and the other is 1985 gmc sierra stepside witch was my fathers truck he bought just before i was born. i have restores it with a 350eddlbrock engein just recently a new rear dif. any how i think i know more about truck then ypu do dogs but that is just my opinion that i bet from you posts thanks


That was a bit of a low blow. I hate to be cliche, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> coppermare merle was her name? well instead of restoring her to her original beuaty, lets make an obomination of her, why not? but indead she looks very "bully"
> oh and also own to trucks one is a new 4x4 dodge and the other is 1985 gmc sierra stepside witch was my fathers truck he bought just before i was born. i have restores it with a 350eddlbrock engein just recently a new rear dif. any how i think i know more about truck then ypu do dogs but that is just my opinion that i bet from you posts thanks


Your right Duece...value is in the eye of the beholder but I'm willing to bet we list that old 85 and Merle online and let's see who gets the highest value. And I'll go further and "pit" LOL..Merle against that new 4x4 in a pull or mud and anything you wanna put on the line....put up or shut up!!! hahahahaha...
Who would want to restore a 1985? Does it even qualify for classic yet? LOL...certainly not antique. I won't diss on your dodge since I love them. But as far as what I know about trucks...I just have to turn around and ask one of the men in the family....I'll cheat on that one. And I KNOW they know more than you..hahahaha. Experience combined with certificates all the way from small engines to diesel engines.. And what I know about Merle, I've witnessed with my own eyes. She'd eat that dodge for breakfast and look for more:woof:


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

Rudy4747 said:


> coppermare merle was her name? well instead of restoring her to her original beuaty, lets make an obomination of her, why not? but indead she looks very "bully"
> oh and also own to trucks one is a new 4x4 dodge and the other is 1985 gmc sierra stepside witch was my fathers truck he bought just before i was born. i have restores it with a 350eddlbrock engein just recently a new rear dif. any how i think i know more about truck then ypu do dogs but that is just my opinion that i bet from you posts thanks


Rudy please refer to the Forum rules. Please focus particularly on rules number 5,8 and number 10.


----------



## Firehazard

I love people who live in a dream world; it is what it is, glass houses crack and crumble when stones are thrown.. BYB is someone who doesn not take accountability for the lives he/she is responcible for. Yes it broad and wide because it a broad and wide subject playing "God". A proper breeder practices culling either by euthanasia or sterilization accompanied by the goes without saying breeding the dogs to sound and athletic perfection. JMO small or large, a breeder should not produce more dogs than they are willing to keep. again, JMO


----------



## DueceAddicTed

I think you guys went way off topic in this thread from bybs to insulting and yes I said IT insulting the * TYPE* of dog a lot of owners/members here own. SO watch yourselves your walking a fine line right now .......


----------



## Rudy4747

coppermare said:


> Your right Duece...value is in the eye of the beholder but I'm willing to bet we list that old 85 and Merle online and let's see who gets the highest value. And I'll go further and "pit" LOL..Merle against that new 4x4 in a pull or mud and anything you wanna put on the line....put up or shut up!!! hahahahaha...
> Who would want to restore a 1985? Does it even qualify for classic yet? LOL...certainly not antique. I won't diss on your dodge since I love them. But as far as what I know about trucks...I just have to turn around and ask one of the men in the family....I'll cheat on that one. And I KNOW they know more than you..hahahaha. Experience combined with certificates all the way from small engines to diesel engines.. And what I know about Merle, I've witnessed with my own eyes. She'd eat that dodge for breakfast and look for more:woof:


Sorry that was rude of me and the more I thought about it the more i thought I should not have said those thing. I am better than that. the 85 is older than me and to me thats old enough for me to restore. My dodge might not be the mudding ideal but it would eat up almost any thing on the road ( its super charged hemi) . I felt like I should state that I have a great knowledge of the history dogs in general see as I research 10 to 30 different breeds before i bought a dog, The second time. never in my research of the history do you see anything about bullies, seeing as how they are so new. I like the look. really. I just read how all these breeds came to be and see no practical function for designer dogs. I do agree that bullies are here and part of the pitbull world, and we should do everything in our power to make sure that they are bred and bettered the whole way. So that one day they have a rich american history just like the American Pit Bull Terriers have. Coppermare nice talking this over with you to you I say soory for kinda being a jerk, we should go hoggin some time you can show me how tuff your bullies are and I'll show you how "city" I am.:hug:


----------



## coppermare

Rudy4747 said:


> Sorry that was rude of me and the more I thought about it the more i thought I should not have said those thing. I am better than that. the 85 is older than me and to me thats old enough for me to restore. My dodge might not be the mudding ideal but it would eat up almost any thing on the road ( its super charged hemi) . I felt like I should state that I have a great knowledge of the history dogs in general see as I research 10 to 30 different breeds before i bought a dog, The second time. never in my research of the history do you see anything about bullies, seeing as how they are so new. I like the look. really. I just read how all these breeds came to be and see no practical function for designer dogs. I do agree that bullies are here and part of the pitbull world, and we should do everything in our power to make sure that they are bred and bettered the whole way. So that one day they have a rich american history just like the American Pit Bull Terriers have. Coppermare nice talking this over with you to you I say soory for kinda being a jerk, we should go hoggin some time you can show me how tuff your bullies are and I'll show you how "city" I am.:hug:


Awww dang, I was wanting that purrty new dodge in my driveway when Merle pulled her body clean off the frame. I was somehow thinkin "purpose" of a 4x4 was "off road" not what it'll do on the highway. I thought muscle cars were for that? Ok, I'll quit......
Apology accepted, but I'll decline the invitation of the hog huntin. "YOU bring home the bacon, I'll fry it up in the pan" LOL.. Ever had polk salad with some corn bread? Now, that's country eatin..later ya'll........


----------



## Rudy4747

coppermare said:


> Awww dang, I was wanting that purrty new dodge in my driveway when Merle pulled her body clean off the frame. I was somehow thinkin "purpose" of a 4x4 was "off road" not what it'll do on the highway. I thought muscle cars were for that? Ok, I'll quit......
> Apology accepted, but I'll decline the invitation of the hog huntin. "YOU bring home the bacon, I'll fry it up in the pan" LOL.. Ever had polk salad with some corn bread? Now, that's country eatin..later ya'll........


corn bread is my favorite stuff. for real though i only do a work on the a ranch and use 4x4 for go "off road" but not really mudding. i like to have get up and go on the road.


----------



## buzhunter

coppermare said:


> [


Stop sending you negative rep? That'd be mighty nice of me, wouldn't it? Sorry. IMO you're bad for the dogs and a nuisance to the board. Again, JMO. Good day.


----------



## Sadie

People can own and feed whatever they want to just call them what they are don't try and breed and pass them off as something else. If you own an american bully call it one. If you own a game bred dog call it a bulldog or an APBT. If you own a staffy call it an Amstaff. If you own a mutt call it a mutt. Don't breed a damn thing if your not breeding to strengthen and tighten up your lines. Too many people own these dogs that shouldn't whatever TYPE you wanna label it. There are enough idiots in the world who shouldn't be anywhere near a damn PIT BULL type dog. Owner's and Breeder's are ruining these dogs as fast as they are being bred. These dogs are just not for everyone once people come to accept that our breed will be in a much better place. If I had it my way there wouldn't be very many APBT owner's in the world JMO.


----------



## Sadie

This is one of the best reads ever .. Everyone who owns a terrier type dog should read it

Amazon.com: The Complete Gamedog: A Guide to Breeding and Raising the American Pit Bull Terrier: Ed Faron, Chris Faron: Books


----------



## MY MIKADO

That is one of the books I want. I hope to have the money this tax season.


----------

