# Creating a New Breed....Dont bash please



## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

Hey guys whats up. im new here just registered. i dont know if this is the right section or not (mods). Im interested in Creating a new breed of dog. please like the title says dont bash i understand this is a very sensitive subject to alot you people and i dont mean to step on anyones toes honestly. The problem that im having is that i dont know what kind of dog i want to breed there are so many options out there it hard to choose a starting breed. i want to stay away from the pit bull type look because no matter what type of breed i make and it can be called the manchurian cat-dog if it looks anything or has a pit bull type look it would be catagorized as a pit bull. does anyone here have the same interests? if so i would like to talk to you guys to kind of get an idea. I understand if some of you dont support this idea but ive been wanting to do this since i was a wee-little lad. and i understand that it takes decades to create the breed and make it breed true and i also understand that it takes alot of mulah. which is no problem since i own a couple businesses. i would just like some help in this and i figured you guys would be the most helpful


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I don't understand why u would want to do this. Im not bashing, but what purpose would this new breed serve? What is ur ultimate goal for this said new breed? 

also if u don't want the "pit bull look" then why r u asking us on a pit bull forum?


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

What purpose do you want the new breed to serve?


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

well i like pit bulls i own 2 of them that were neglected as pups. i guess you can say i rescued them. when i got them they had mange (scabies type) and there stomachs were bloated which i dont know why and my vet didnt know why. it took 3 months to get that back to health but anyways end of rant. Im pretty sure as pit bull owners and know how people react to pit bull looking breeds that you guys wouldnt want another reason for people to talk crap about them. i figured that you guys would be open to this question seeing that idk if you personally but most people have accepted the american bully and even purchased one which is a relatively new breed. and which is the same thing as of what purpose does the bully serve? sorry if im sounding like an ass i really dont mean to bro.

the dog would serve as the ultimate guard dog/nanny dog. ideally it would have the devotion of the apbt and the nanny instict of the new foundland, the intelligence of the doberman pinscher with the speed of the greyhound. i know that this idea is really farfetched but ideally that would be the dog. with the look of the canis panther or caucasian ovcharka type look



Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> I don't understand why u would want to do this. Im not bashing, but what purpose would this new breed serve? What is ur ultimate goal for this said new breed?
> 
> also if u don't want the "pit bull look" then why r u asking us on a pit bull forum?


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

im not aiming for the most bad ass looking dog with the biggest build and blockiest head. im looking for and dog that would be accepted by most people that would have multiples uses.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

The American Bully should be a huge starting point of why not to create new breeds. Look how many Bully rescues have had to form, thousands of horridly bred dogs, and a large group of people breeding just because their animals have genitalia. 

Making a guard dog out of anything "pit bull" in type is the worst idea is a long sad history of bad ideas. This breed is not at all meant for human aggression or guarding so I don't think you even understand the breed you intend to breed mutts with. 

The APBT is fine the way it is and anything you want out of a dog can be found in a current breed that was created with TRUE purpose. Making pets is not a reason to breed. 

I think you need to do more research on current breeds, overpopulation and the state all dogs are currently in. You seem to be blissfully unaware of dogs as a whole.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> The American Bully should be a huge starting point of why not to create new breeds. Look how many Bully rescues have had to form, thousands of horridly bred dogs, and a large group of people breeding just because their animals have genitalia.
> 
> Making a guard dog out of anything "pit bull" in type is the worst idea is a long sad history of bad ideas. This breed is not at all meant for human aggression or guarding so I don't think you even understand the breed you intend to breed mutts with.
> 
> ...


well as stated in my first post i want to stay AWAY from the pit bull. i would just like the devotion and game-ness of the apbt.

ideally the co and the newfoundland would be a starting stock. which im actually in the process of acquiring 2 co's i dont plan on doing this anytime soon. still years away from starting and i agree with you i do need to do more research on dog breeds which is why this wont take place for a while. i just wanted to know if anyone on here had any desire to do this also. this dog would have a PURPOSE also to be the ultimate gaurd dog/family dog.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

hmmm... i really thought i would get more responses....


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Well, I would say there are quite a few ultimate guard dog/family breeds already in existence...the Belgian malinois comes to mind....


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

most functional breeds were designed for specific purposes. often singular purposes. sounds like you want a dog that spans across multiple categories. a genetic program of that magnitude would require many more generations than you expect. maybe even more than possible in one person's lifetime.
like others have already mentioned, the purpose of the dog must be determined first. but that follows more fundamental questions... what is your specific need? are you trying to address an issue in security? if so, what is the threat? human? natural predator? what are the assets? agricultural? family members? what is the environment like? weather and terrain? no, not all breeds were created to address a human problem. so called "designer" breeds are basically aesthetic companions. so are you actually addressing an area of need?
or do you want to create a breed for sh**s and giggles? playing mad scientist with DNA is not something one should be doing for recreation. that is how we end up with africanized bees killing farm animals and the occasional dog walker. pesticide resistance critters that wipe out crops. and invasive species like the snakehead that decimate indigenous wildlife.
(those were extreme examples but you get the point).
whatever you create will impact the natural balance and order of things. maybe that's an ecosystem. maybe it's the social views of a community. (ie the mountain of issues with bulldogs).
that's a responsibility i believe few are capable of handling.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> well as stated in my first post i want to stay AWAY from the pit bull. i would just like the devotion and game-ness of the apbt.


guard dog from a game dog???? BAD idea.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Well, I would say there are quite a few ultimate guard dog/family breeds already in existence...the Belgian malinois comes to mind....


 hmm interesting... i do not know all the dog breeds yet im still writing a bunch of notes on dog breeds. will have to look at this one. kind of struck me as a smaller gsd. i was thinking of maybe some rhodesian ridgeback?



JoKealoha said:


> most functional breeds were designed for specific purposes. often singular purposes. sounds like you want a dog that spans across multiple categories. a genetic program of that magnitude would require many more generations than you expect. maybe even more than possible in one person's lifetime.
> like others have already mentioned, the purpose of the dog must be determined first. but that follows more fundamental questions... what is your specific need? are you trying to address an issue in security? if so, what is the threat? human? natural predator? what are the assets? agricultural? family members? what is the environment like? weather and terrain? no, not all breeds were created to address a human problem. so called "designer" breeds are basically aesthetic companions. so are you actually addressing an area of need?
> or do you want to create a breed for sh**s and giggles? playing mad scientist with DNA is not something one should be doing for recreation. that is how we end up with africanized bees killing farm animals and the occasional dog walker. pesticide resistance critters that wipe out crops. and invasive species like the snakehead that decimate indigenous wildlife.
> (those were extreme examples but you get the point).
> ...


this is the type of answer im looking for. no im not trying to make a labradoodles or whatever those designer dogs are called. ya i get the point. well one area i was thinking was security actually because the way everything is going these days and how people are a bigger security dog would be in my eyes a good idea seeing as if i was going to rob a house or and estate a pitbull would scare me some. well not some it would scare me alot but a caucasian ovcharka would scare the shit out of me specially since they are monstrous bear type dogs that were used for protecting livestock from wolves and bears.



JoKealoha said:


> guard dog from a game dog???? BAD idea.


i dont see it as bad seeing that if someone were to break into your house you yourself (hypothetically of course) were over powered by the robber or theif you wouldnt want your dog to get hit once then give up. you would want the dog to help at all cost the same as you would protect him right? in that sense gameness would be a plus.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Once you actually research dogs you will see why this sounds so odd to us. There are a ton of breeds that ALREADY exist that do this job quiet well so all you are doing is considering making un needed animals. Co's are not a breed to be handled lightly and take a serious owner. They are not a breed that should be crossed into anything and owned by the average person. 

Do you realize whats going on with breed banning right now? Human attacks by dogs? Huge amounts of people are pushing to ban all dogs and as much as that doesn't sound likely its happening all over. Everything down to your precious golden retrievers have bans, pugs have bans. 

Dogs need people helping to save whats left not create more of the problem.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Once you actually research dogs you will see why this sounds so odd to us. There are a ton of breeds that ALREADY exist that do this job quiet well so all you are doing is considering making un needed animals. Co's are not a breed to be handled lightly and take a serious owner. They are not a breed that should be crossed into anything and owned by the average person.
> 
> Do you realize whats going on with breed banning right now? Human attacks by dogs? Huge amounts of people are pushing to ban all dogs and as much as that doesn't sound likely its happening all over. Everything down to your precious golden retrievers have bans, pugs have bans.
> 
> Dogs need people helping to save whats left not create more of the problem.


most of the breed bans are for what they call pit bull type breeds that display a majority of the pit bull characteristics i doubt that they are going to be banning doberman pinscher, german shepherd type dogs. they are mostly pointing toward pit bulls


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> i doubt that they are going to be banning doberman pinscher, german shepherd type dogs. they are mostly pointing toward pit bulls


Did you not read my post??

PUGS HAVE BANS
GOLDEN RETRIEVERS HAVE BANS
COCKER SPANIELS HAVE BANS
DOBERMAN PINSCHERS AND GERMANS SHEPHARDS HAVE ALREADY HAD BANS.

All these types of dogs have bans
Working group/type - Akbash, Akita, Alaskan Malamute, American Husky, Anatolian Shepherd, boxer, bull mastiff, catahoula leopard dog, Doberman, English Mastiff, Great Dane, Great Pyranees, Italian Mastiff, Kangal dog, Komodor, Kuvaz, Leonberger, mastiff, Neopolitan Mastiff, Newfoundland, Presa de Canario, Presa de mallorquin, Rottweiler, Saint Bernard, Samoyed, Siberian Husky, Spanish Mastiff,

Herding group type - Australian Cattle Dog, Australian Shepherd, Belgian Malinois, Belgian Sheepdog, Belgian Turvuren, blue heeler, Bouvier des Flandres, German Shepherd dog, caucasian shepherd, Timber Shepherd, Tundra shepherd

Terriers - Airedale terrier, American Pit Bull terrier, American Staffordshire terrier, Boston terrier, bull terrier, fox terrier, staffordshire bull terrier .

Hounds - Borzoi, Otterhound, Saarloos Wolfhound, Scottish Deerhound.

Sporting - English Springer Spaniel, Golden Retreiver, Labrador retreiver.

Others - Alaphaha Blue Blood Bull Dog, American Bulldog, American Wolfdog, Arikara Dog, boerbul, bulldog, cane corso, shar pei, chow, Colorado dog, dogo de Argentino, Dogue de Bordeaux, Eskimo dogs, Estrela Mountain dog, Fila Brasiliero, French Bulldog, Greenland Husky, Keeshond, pug, tosa Inu, Wolf Spitz.

Do your research before even thinking about producing a living animal.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

I agree, do your research. I mean its all cool to live in lala land when you're a young lad, but as a man you have to know your sh**. As a business owner you know that creating a business where there is no market is a death trap. Who's really going to buy this dog, when there are perfectly bred champion dogs doing what you've named and doing it well. Plus the breed bans could totally kill your market. So you'd be selling to the average joe who wouldn't know much about your mixed dog. Plus you'd have to establish a name. When looking for a good dog no responsible people go to no namers they're a dime a dozen and produce dogs that can't compete with the real thing.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Oh and I'm not trying to bash, just make a point


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> hmm interesting... i do not know all the dog breeds yet im still writing a bunch of notes on dog breeds. will have to look at this one. kind of struck me as a smaller gsd. i was thinking of maybe some rhodesian ridgeback?
> 
> this is the type of answer im looking for. no im not trying to make a labradoodles or whatever those designer dogs are called. ya i get the point. well one area i was thinking was security actually because the way everything is going these days and how people are a bigger security dog would be in my eyes a good idea seeing as if i was going to rob a house or and estate a pitbull would scare me some. well not some it would scare me alot but a caucasian ovcharka would scare the shit out of me specially since they are monstrous bear type dogs that were used for protecting livestock from wolves and bears.
> 
> i dont see it as bad seeing that if someone were to break into your house you yourself (hypothetically of course) were over powered by the robber or theif you wouldnt want your dog to get hit once then give up. you would want the dog to help at all cost the same as you would protect him right? in that sense gameness would be a plus.


there is no dog that will fulfill this role on genetics alone. they require extensive training.
you do not have a unique problem to solve. you do not require a new combination of traits. there are several effective options for you to choose from. a bullmastiff would give you the intimidation factor you are looking for. but if you are really worried about social deterioration and criminals, get yourself a couple of WELL BRED rottweilers, train them EXTREMELY well. and put a .45 on your hip.
there's no need to mess with mother nature.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

rabbit said:


> Oh and I'm not trying to bash, just make a point


i totally understand what your saying man. and i do look at it that way. but just using this as an example of course then instead of breeding for a purpose why not looks? i mean when i look at the bully again it honestly has no purpose it looks cool but really has no purpose. like i said this is just an example but im pretty sure that the majority of people that own dogs dont actually use it for the purpose it was bred for. like the bulldog i doubt if any of you guys have them that you go bull baiting every weekend. i dont thing you guys buy them for the purpose you buy them for the looks pretty much. i know it doesnt really make a feasable arguement but still my pit bulls i didnt buy them becuase of the purpose. so for arguements sake people dont buy dogs because of the purpose and since they arent fulfilling a purpose for which they were specifically bred for should we do away with dogs all together?


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

J_hulk said:


> i totally understand what your saying man. and i do look at it that way. but just using this as an example of course then instead of breeding for a purpose why not looks? i mean when i look at the bully again it honestly has no purpose it looks cool but really has no purpose. like i said this is just an example but im pretty sure that the majority of people that own dogs dont actually use it for the purpose it was bred for. like the bulldog i doubt if any of you guys have them that you go bull baiting every weekend. i dont thing you guys buy them for the purpose you buy them for the looks pretty much. i know it doesnt really make a feasable arguement but still my pit bulls i didnt buy them becuase of the purpose. so for arguements sake people dont buy dogs because of the purpose and since they arent fulfilling a purpose for which they were specifically bred for should we do away with dogs all together?


A lot of people on this site have their dogs for traits that stemmed from their original purpose. What do you really want out of these dogs? I just don't see how you can be successful. If bred for looks how can your mixed breed dog beat out the beauty of my full bred chow or any other full breed dog? You would have to be pretty elaborate and you'd have to have people dedicated to continuing your work which would be heard.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

rabbit said:


> A lot of people on this site have their dogs for traits that stemmed from their original purpose. What do you really want out of these dogs? I just don't see how you can be successful. If bred for looks how can your mixed breed dog beat out the beauty of my full bred chow or any other full breed dog? You would have to be pretty elaborate and you'd have to have people dedicated to continuing your work which would be heard.


well its the same as any dog. there is no pure bred dog they are all mutts. just overtime organizations have came up that deemed them pure. but they all came from crosses of other dogs. and ya i know it would be hard to do. thats why im just spit balling and getting input from other people. and thats why im asking if anyone else has had the desire for this. nothing is set in stone. this might just be an idea that will never happen who knows. but i think its good to get others opinions on this subject seeing as no matter what in time new breeds will come up whether we like it or not. if i dont do it someone else will. you know what i mean?


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> seeing as no matter what in time new breeds will come up whether we like it or not. if i dont do it someone else will. you know what i mean?


originally, i didn't question your intention. only your knowledge and social consciousness.
now i think your motives are completely screwed up. as well as your logic.
"other people are irresponsible... it is inevitable they will do something dumb...so i will be irresponsible too... and i will do something dumb before they do".

nobody here will validate your lolo idea about creating a new breed of dog.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Well I think the best advice is not to. You have to know when to launch a business and right now there are no new purposes for a new breed. You can still look into how you would (if you could) do it, and maybe that will help you understand why you shouldn't. Look into different breeds, because once you find the one you love you'll understand that there is no need for others. That doesn't mean get new dogs and start some bogus breeding program, but do some more research, and focus on the dogs you have. Hopefully they're fixed.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

rabbit said:


> A lot of people on this site have their dogs for traits that stemmed from their original purpose. What do you really want out of these dogs? I just don't see how you can be successful. If bred for looks how can your mixed breed dog beat out the beauty of my full bred chow or any other full breed dog? You would have to be pretty elaborate and you'd have to have people dedicated to continuing your work which would be heard.





JoKealoha said:


> originally, i didn't question your intention. only your knowledge and social consciousness.
> now i think your motives are completely screwed up. as well as your logic.
> "other people are irresponsible... it is inevitable they will do something dumb...so i will be irresponsible too... and i will do something dumb before they do".
> 
> nobody here will validate your lolo idea about creating a new breed of dog.


my motive is still the same i was just using examples. im not saying that i should do something dumb before they do. what im trying to get at is that If i do happen to do this to do it right by the book everything in order vet checks everything. and to set it as an example i guess that pretty much it can be done but the right way. and using all precautions. its just like (example again) if your trying to learn or do something and you have no one to reference to or ask for help your just going to do what sounds good to you right? and since you didnt know what you were doing and your kid some day runs into the same problem and he asks you. well you didnt know what to do the first time so your not gonna know what to do the second. so the cycle will just continue till someone stops and does it right. make sense? idk if im explaining it right. the thing im trying to get at is if do this right 100% how is it stupid? (example again) weather its bred for a purpose or looks. if you can minimize health issues and what not?


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

of course this isnt something that would happen over night i know that it would take decades to actually complete.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

I couldn't see you having an actual market... Ever. Not a legitimate market (I'm speaking about this in a business aspect since you felt the need to state that you were a business man).


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

rabbit said:


> I couldn't see you having an actual market... Ever. Not a legitimate market (I'm speaking about this in a business aspect since you felt the need to state that you were a business man).


i only stated that i own businesses because ive asked this before and people say that you need money to start and support this adventure which i agree with thats why i wanted to eliminate that early in the thread. i could have probably just said that money isnt an issue. and as a business man looking at this as a business there is a market for everything you just have to find the right niche. the market is constantly changing and new things are constantly comming up


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

rabbit said:


> I couldn't see you having an actual market... Ever. Not a legitimate market (I'm speaking about this in a business aspect since you felt the need to state that you were a business man).


but like i said before. i agree with you that i do need to do alot more research on the matter and this isnt something to be taken lightly


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

It is not logical to say one person can start a breed as again it has been stated it takes decades to really scrape the surface. Most likely ones lifetime wouldn't be long enough to create one and have the proper knowledge to even begin to comprehend what they really want to base their new breed from. People just don't live as long as they used to, average life span of 65 years on a human, wouldn't be long enough in no way shape or form. Think about it 20 to 25 years to really become an adult. At-least 10 to acquire knowledge and that's just *basic* knowledge on hundreds of breeds of dogs. Really you would probably want several different crosses bred as pure crosses meaning 50/50 crosses of 2 different breeds to section out characteristics for atleast a decade then cross those crosses then weed out what you want. That would take more then 35 years hypothetically to perfect it. You will most likely die before it is completed then your work will be lost and useless. Also in the testing phase I guess you would say with trial and error on crossing you wouldn't want to sell or get rid of those dogs for fear of bad genes being passed down and have a potential deadly dog from bad breeding. These are the things that most dont want to consider when crossing dogs somethings can go horridly wrong in the crossing. Your purpose on making a breed is quite vague. There is no indication of outstanding purpose that no other breed has. As has been said previously a dogs temperament is not all made up of genetics although it can be used as a canvas it is never certain on that particular dog until it has been trained. A poorly train dog can be a time bomb especially in a strong breed of dog such as a guarding breed.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Producing Bandogs, Protection Mastiffs, Guard Dogs, etc from a foundation including Bulldog, Whopper, Game Dog, etc... This is nothing new, virtually all successful Bandog breeds and yards of the past 200 years have included these hounds in their foundation for a reason. Hell trace most "Bandog type" Mastiffs back far enough and you will find Bulldog and Mastiff crossings in the beginning with a few exceptions such as the Caucasian Ovcharka.. Which you can trace back to a Mastiff type of animal and Wolf.. War Mastiffs..

The genetics behind the APBT offer a GREAT deal to working stock Mastiffs, it is not to create a larger boned whopper Bulldog that looks virtually the same except larger, it is to instill the sound mentality, wind, solid structure, drive and gameness to compliment working stock Mastiff.. Programs and yards will use these animals for various reasons, the end result is versatility that the foundation Mastiff lacked in some means or another. Genetically, the Bulldog can also be used to help breed back out traditional stock if you can't get your hands on already produced..With show stock tainting traditional formats, pet quality losing ground for the animal.. After time, you lose the function that made the dog what the dog is. 

What better animal to use than the Bulldog? Bar none.. There is none.

That said, there are already dogs out there that fit your criteria.. Traditional Dogos first come to mind.

With that said, you obviously need to gain more than you already have obtained to even begin.. You shouldn't consider even a starting point for YEARS as it takes YEARS to even begin to truly understand genetics and what you are playing with.. Especially for the type of dogs you are wanting, EASILY a disaster.

There is FAR more to it than just what is mentioned and it could take hundreds of posts to touch all topics in mediocre detail.

All i can really say is unless you are truly creating a unique animal that no other protection dog offers, there is no point. There are MANY different breeds that can fit your criteria if you know where to look. Before you have your heart set on anything, you need to learn, get experience handling these type of animals, fully understand and comprehend what is going on, how to care, handle, condition, train.. Understand to a professional point of genetics, k9 behavior, mutations, etc..

Also, research the already in existence of Protection Mastiffs and other protection dogs, i am certain you will find what you want already exists because your vision isn't anything in the way of "special" in that theres nothing dead specific about what you are wanting that isn't already out there.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

I say stick with what you know, nothing.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> Did you not read my post??
> 
> PUGS HAVE BANS
> GOLDEN RETRIEVERS HAVE BANS
> ...


i couldnt have said it better.

its a lot of money, man. its just not worth the time.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

American_Pit13 said:


> Did you not read my post??
> 
> PUGS HAVE BANS
> GOLDEN RETRIEVERS HAVE BANS
> ...


:goodpost:

Please realize even dogs that are not APBT might still have BSL (breed specific legislation) you need to be careful of where you currently live and check out laws. Actually almost all the dogs you have mentioned are right there with pit bull type dogs on being banned. While you are spending years learning about genetics and already existing breeds look up BSL.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

yes! what Ames said! most gaurding type dogs are gunna be restricted if not by BSL then by Insurance Agencies. Most home owners insurances dont care if its an Akita, Rott, Dobie, GSD, or APBT, they are all on "the list". Not a big deal for some people, but huge for others. when u go to find new homes for ur new breed ur gunna run into this. Renters and homeowners both giving up the pups for whatever reason. then ur n"ew breed" will end up in the pound as mixes. 

common sense aint so common anymore....


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

ok i understand you guys point of view like i said though guys IF and thats a big IF, if i do decide to undertake this adventure it wouldnt be for a long while. 

and i understand the point about not need another guard dog.

so how would this sound what about breed for sport? as in weight pulling. it would have a purpose. that is in need right now. because people that are in weight pulling are constantly trying to get there dogs stronger. and its good for the dog as in it is good excercise to burn alot of energy and its pushing the dog and making it stronger. this wouldnt be bred for security or nanny ness so to speak but for strength and determination. and before you guys start saying that the apbt is the perfect dog for it isnt true. a nice pure show quality within the standards would not be able to pull 5000lbs of weight. it does have the determination but not the strength required. weight pulling is something i have wanted to get into but i dont want to hurt my dogs so i am also researching how to start out in it. weight pulling is gettting bigger and bigger every year. specially with owners of bully type breeds as they use the american bulldog, amstaff, rotties ect. 
it wouldnt be something that wouldnt be for the average owner. much like the greyhound an whippet, they are used for sport. sadly the sport is dying but still it would be using strong traits of dogs that in my eyes i dont see how it would negatively twisted into the media


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

here is an example incase anyone has seen it before


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

There are already WP dogs and WP is not a need. It is a sport people enjoy doing with their dogs. It doesn't accomplish anything.

There is not need to create any breed, and when you don't even know what breeds are already out there I don't at all see why you think you need to or would even be capable of producing a worth while breed that will do anything other than end up in more over population and problem for those of us who are actually involved in dogs.

How old are you? This is a serious question.

5000lbs by 60+lb dogs is nothing special......

My Bitch Bailey. NKC GRCH winning 2 NKC national WP's as well. Here with 7,475 lbs. by a 42 lb dog whose breed already exists. Shes not even the best either. You really need to stop thinking about breeding when you don't even know whats out there.


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

You really have no idea I can see. You need to really do some research before even having these considerations. These are not my dogs but dogs I know fit standard and pull large amounts.

Both dogs owned by Top Gun Pits









FALIN'S HEMI BARRACUDA

ACE OF ACE IN WT. PULL 
IN THE ADBA AND 
UKC UWP WP2 WPC1
NKC Weightpull Champion and 
UKC Good Citizen Award, 
Winner of The Award 
of Merit 2010 Nationals 
in recognition of exceptional quality. 
Most wt. pulled 11/03/07 10,275lbs 
228.33 x his body wt.










FALIN'S ACE FLIP THE SWITCH

ADBA Weightpull ACE
Ranked # 7 ADBA 
weight pull dog for 2010
NKC GR CH WEIGHT PULL
UKC UWP WPC1 and WPV1

Switch pulling at an ADBA show in Hickory NC, when he was formerly owned 
by Old Fort Kennels. Here he's pulling 7475lbs, 149.5x his body weight!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

There are tons of APBT who pull, not all of them are show dogs. From what I have seen some dogs may cross over but their bodies for weight pull are not always the ideal bodies for showing.

There is a difference in trying to work your dog for fun and exercise and trying to have it pull 10,000lbs, lol. Since I am new to dogs, only been learning about them for a few years, I have only seen WP get more popular. I don't think its a dying sport. It just depends on where you go.

Search on here for weight pulling, you will see tons of pictures and posts from members for fun and competing. Some great examples of champion WP are APBT.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> There are already WP dogs and WP is not a need. It is a sport people enjoy doing with their dogs. It doesn't accomplish anything.
> 
> There is not need to create any breed, and when you don't even know what breeds are already out there I don't at all see why you think you need to or would even be capable of producing a worth while breed that will do anything other than end up in more over population and problem for those of us who are actually involved in dogs.
> 
> How old are you? This is a serious question.


i understand it is a sport just like dog racing it is a sport. but i dont think you would race your pits against a gh or whippet and expect a fighting chance would you. if you have ever been or participated in any sport than you would know that there is always a need for a better stronger faster person. same with dogs just because they are an animal doesnt mean that sports and what is needed in them changes. like football for example if i were to use your expression it would go like this. why would football scouts try to scout new players if they already have a team? why? for someone faster stronger and can get the job done better than who they have.

im 34 but i dont see what that has to do with talking about breeding a dog for wp. 
and no matter how much you disagree with that logic it is true and that is what happends. even in show dogs your looking for a better dog with perfect everything, because if you want to show your dog and its not winning any shows you might not be interested in a different breed but you will be looking for a winner


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

:stick::hammer:


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

]



ames said:


> There are tons of APBT who pull, not all of them are show dogs. From what I have seen some dogs may cross over but their bodies for weight pull are not always the ideal bodies for showing.
> 
> There is a difference in trying to work your dog for fun and exercise and trying to have it pull 10,000lbs, lol. Since I am new to dogs, only been learning about them for a few years, I have only seen WP get more popular. I don't think its a dying sport. It just depends on where you go.
> 
> Search on here for weight pulling, you will see tons of pictures and posts from members for fun and competing. Some great examples of champion WP are APBT.


im not saying wp is a dying sport. dog racing is. wp is a still up and comming sport.

yes alot of them are crosses but what im trying to get at with this example is that if your dog can pull 4 tons and your really pushing him to his limits and another dog is pulling 6 tons. obviously your dog isnt a winner in the judges eyes and if you want to win your going to be looking for a stronger dog. and if not in that breed then another.

of course i am looking at this in a perspective of there is a place that can be filled, just like water bottles no one really needed them but someone saw a place that can be filled and they filled it. its not the fact of if it needs to be filled its more of the fact that it CAN BE FILLED

i dont know if any of you guys are business owners or entrepreneurs and if you are then you should be able to understand this. you might be against it BUT it is the way we are. we are always going to be looking for something better. And i know probably almost all of you are VERY resistant or do not want change but change is inevitable


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I asked your age because the way you think came of as a teenager and I was wondering if you were even an adult.


Obviously there is just no hope as you seem to be blissfully unaware of what dogs exists, what sports they excel in, and the over all world of dogs in general.

It seems you just want to create dogs and are looking for an excuse to do so. I'll warn you now that NO educated dog person will purchase your puppies.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I guess I can see what you are saying, shit evolves things change and become better all the time. But its by nature or someone inventing something. HUMAN intervention on living beings is where I think you are having a problem and actually dont understand how wrong it is. Comparing an invention like the water bottle to actual living beings being mutated and changed to MAYBE get a better performance when so many already exist is what is so weird. WHAT is the point? Unless you know every breed of dog you don't know if yours already exists.

I also don't understand because all the things you are saying you want is a APBT without the APBT head. You need to realize genetically speaking the pit bull's head is dominant. Hence why so many non APBT get called pit bulls, their heads are dominate so when they are mixed into other breeds, the head shape most likely wins the gene pool and remains while temperament, body strength and other great APBT qualities are sacrificed.


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

The main question to you is what exactly is it do you plan to bring to the dog world that it doesn't already have? You keep basically repeating yourself with different scenarios but, either way they don't add up to you contributing anything that isn't already there. I just see someone wanting to make a name for themselves through breeding mutts and not really contributing anything in the long run. This is not a bash just what I see. You are still very vague on what you want first it was guarding now weight pull. You came here for knowledge I assume as your original question sounded as though it was seeking knowledge. Seems as though each bit of knowledge you get you are finding a reason to just kind of through it over your shoulder like well this doesn't apply to me. The true workings of a novice. You seriously need to take a real look around and look at the state that the domestic canine is in, as a whole.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> I asked your age because the way you think came of as a teenager and I was wondering if you were even an adult.
> 
> Obviously there is just no hope as you seem to be blissfully unaware of what dogs exists, what sports they excel in, and the over all world of dogs in general.
> 
> It seems you just want to create dogs and are looking for an excuse to do so. I'll warn you now that NO educated dog person will purchase your puppies.


why would me asking about creating a different dog breed and wanting opinions from other people make me come off as a teenager?

well in a sense yes i guess i am blissfully unaware of all the dogs that exist but i doubt than even YOU know all about the 300+ breeds of dogs that exist.
why would no one purchase my puppies if i decided to do this. someone sometime in history breed the apbt and you seem to have purchased more than 1. heck i even purchased more than a couple


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

MSK said:


> The main question to you is what exactly is it do you plan to bring to the dog world that it doesn't already have? You keep basically repeating yourself with different scenarios but, either way they don't add up to you contributing anything that isn't already there. I just see someone wanting to make a name for themselves through breeding mutts and not really contributing anything in the long run. This is not a bash just what I see. You are still very vague on what you want first it was guarding now weight pull. You came here for knowledge I assume as your original question sounded as though it was seeking knowledge. Seems as though each bit of knowledge you get you are finding a reason to just kind of through it over your shoulder like well this doesn't apply to me. The true workings of a novice. You seriously need to take a real look around and look at the state that the domestic canine is in, as a whole.


exactly!

and I thought you were a kid because a lot of your statements come across as ignorant and uninformed. Finding out you are my age kinda Shocks me, lol. Do you know how many dogs are killed because of overpopulation of the 300+ breeds already out there? You can find what you want without making more mutts that might wind up in shelters.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> well in a sense yes i guess i am blissfully unaware of all the dogs that exist but i doubt than even YOU know all about the 300+ breeds of dogs that exist.


What breed would you like to know about? There are a couple rarer breeds in other countries that I am not as familiar with, but 99% of the breeds that exist I can tell you their size, purpose, use today, activity level, what home they need, and colors they come in 

I am a fancier of all dogs and I know my shit.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

ames said:


> I guess I can see what you are saying, shit evolves things change and become better all the time. But its by nature or someone inventing something. HUMAN intervention on living beings is where I think you are having a problem and actually dont understand how wrong it is. Comparing an invention like the water bottle to actual living beings being mutated and changed to MAYBE get a better performance when so many already exist is what is so weird. WHAT is the point? Unless you know every breed of dog you don't know if yours already exists.
> 
> I also don't understand because all the things you are saying you want is a APBT without the APBT head. You need to realize genetically speaking the pit bull's head is dominant. Hence why so many non APBT get called pit bulls, their heads are dominate so when they are mixed into other breeds, the head shape most likely wins the gene pool and remains while temperament, body strength and other great APBT qualities are sacrificed.


as i stated in my previous post i dont know about every breed. I admit it. im not saying that i want the pitbull without the head. i said some of the traits of the pit bull would be ideal and the end breed.



MSK said:


> The main question to you is what exactly is it do you plan to bring to the dog world that it doesn't already have? You keep basically repeating yourself with different scenarios but, either way they don't add up to you contributing anything that isn't already there. I just see someone wanting to make a name for themselves through breeding mutts and not really contributing anything in the long run. This is not a bash just what I see. You are still very vague on what you want first it was guarding now weight pull. You came here for knowledge I assume as your original question sounded as though it was seeking knowledge. Seems as though each bit of knowledge you get you are finding a reason to just kind of through it over your shoulder like well this doesn't apply to me. The true workings of a novice. You seriously need to take a real look around and look at the state that the domestic canine is in, as a whole.


this is what im trying to get at. everyone keeps saying that i dont know what im talking about because i dont know about every single breed in the entire world. i stated in previous post that i STILL HAVE ALOT OF RESEARCH TO DO. i also stated that i was pretty much brainstorming here to get ideas and info. i never said i was dead set on guard or wp. i said i wanted opinions on the pros and cons of this. but everyone here seems to be scared of change or if not scared than resistant. im pretty sure anytime any even utters the words "creating a new breed" its like if that person is somehow the devil's reincarnation. and ive seen it to. google it online and you will see how resistant to change every is. plus i never said that i wanted to do this right now im still weighing the time and effort of it all to see if its even worth it. what im looking for is educated comments on the pros and cons of this


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

ames said:


> exactly!
> 
> and I thought you were a kid because a lot of your statements come across as ignorant and uninformed. Finding out you are my age kinda Shocks me, lol. Do you know how many dogs are killed because of overpopulation of the 300+ breeds already out there? You can find what you want without making more mutts that might wind up in shelters.


well not in my case. i tend to think outside the box. like for instance ive always wanted an apbt the size of a great dane. but i highly doubt that it exists. and i dont think that me simply looking for the breed that fits that criteria is going to bring me any closer to that


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

there is no NEED except to create more dogs that will be killed. Thats why its the devil. You are talking about making mutts in hopes of one day having a new breed of dog, its not realistic. Do you think people are just lying to you? There have been facts given to you about why its not needed. Look at the AmBully as a prime example of what can happen if you try to create breed. Too many people try to make their own lines and have made that breed into something horrible in some cases. True dog people are really trying to reel it back and get it back on track before it get ruined by some trying to create the best thing out there. Its almost 30 years later and some still don't recognize it as its own breed. If you are doing this you are now in retirement and still yet to have a new breed created in some eyes. Why bother? Especially if you dont even know if the dog you want exists already, or what you want this dog to do. People have given examples of what you said you want that are already out there. Its fine to talk about but you need to realize its not realistic.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> What breed would you like to know about? There are a couple rarer breeds in other countries that I am not as familiar with, but 99% of the breeds that exist I can tell you their size, purpose, use today, activity level, what home they need, and colors they come in
> 
> I am a fancier of all dogs and I know my shit.


well then you should be one of the worlds most decorated breeders. because i doubt that even 90% of all dog breeders in the world know Every single thing about 99% of all dog breeds in existence.


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

J_hulk said:


> as i stated in my previous post i dont know about every breed. I admit it. im not saying that i want the pitbull without the head. i said some of the traits of the pit bull would be ideal and the end breed.
> 
> this is what im trying to get at. everyone keeps saying that i dont know what im talking about because i dont know about every single breed in the entire world. i stated in previous post that i STILL HAVE ALOT OF RESEARCH TO DO. i also stated that i was pretty much brainstorming here to get ideas and info. i never said i was dead set on guard or wp. i said i wanted opinions on the pros and cons of this. but everyone here seems to be scared of change or if not scared than resistant. im pretty sure anytime any even utters the words "creating a new breed" its like if that person is somehow the devil's reincarnation. and ive seen it to. google it online and you will see how resistant to change every is. plus i never said that i wanted to do this right now im still weighing the time and effort of it all to see if its even worth it. what im looking for is educated comments on the pros and cons of this


The pros and cons have been given the #1 con is that there are millions of unwanted dogs being put to sleep every year do you really want to add to that?? 9/10 of those dogs are mixed breed dogs.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Its not a resistance to change its a dislike to purposely creating UNNEEDED animals when dogs are in a current state of overpopulation and thousands die every day because someone wanted to play breeder and thought they were doing something cool. 


Its great that you want to research, but you seem to already have to goal in your head without having the background to get there.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> well then you should be one of the worlds most decorated breeders.


Nope just a person who really really really into dogs.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

ames said:


> there is no NEED except to create more dogs that will be killed. Thats why its the devil. You are talking about making mutts in hopes of one day having a new breed of dog, its not realistic. Do you think people are just lying to you? There have been facts given to you about why its not needed. Look at the AmBully as a prime example of what can happen if you try to create breed. Too many people try to make their own lines and have made that breed into something horrible in some cases. True dog people are really trying to reel it back and get it back on track before it get ruined by some trying to create the best thing out there. Its almost 30 years later and some still don't recognize it as its own breed. If you are doing this you are now in retirement and still yet to have a new breed created in some eyes. Why bother? Especially if you dont even know if the dog you want exists already, or what you want this dog to do. People have given examples of what you said you want that are already out there. Its fine to talk about but you need to realize its not realistic.


i agree with you about the american bully it is a perfect example. it was created for looks not a purpose. but what im trying to get at is it is a possibility there are hundreds of breeds out there and hundreds of people that created them. so i dont see that if they can do and accomplish it then why is it so unrealistic for me to accomplish it. and i do see your point about the mutts and shelters. but why is it so unrealistic for me? ive started multiple businesses that have been successful that are still running today. I own a limousine and party bus service, and auto shop, a dealership, and i build partybuses to resell. so for people to say that what i want isnt possible for me to achieve no offense to you of course but it kind of hits me personally.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

J_hulk said:


> well not in my case. i tend to think outside the box. like for instance ive always wanted an apbt the size of a great dane. but i highly doubt that it exists. and i dont think that me simply looking for the breed that fits that criteria is going to bring me any closer to that


As someone already mentioned Dogo's are pretty damn close... they are made up of Great Dane, Boxer, Spanish Mastiff, Old English Bulldog, Bull Terrier, Great Pyrenees, Pointer, Irish Wolfhound and Dogue de Bordeaux.

Dogo Argentino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WHY do you want to add to the already overpopulated shelters? Thats what I really want to know. Its not about if you CAN create a new breed, its what is behind the desire? A selfish need to get your name in some history books? What else could be the reason to create another breed of dog when so many are dying already? Or are you asking because its hypothetical and you really know in your heart its unrealistic to do this? I know nothing about you except what you are posting. Do you own dogs now?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Building a business and creating life are nothing close to the same.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Its not a resistance to change its a dislike to purposely creating UNNEEDED animals when dogs are in a current state of overpopulation and thousands die every day because someone wanted to play breeder and thought they were doing something cool.
> 
> Its great that you want to research, but you seem to already have to goal in your head without having the background to get there.


thats the thing though that im trying to get across and for some reason is getting ignored. i said that im just brainstorming i wanted educated comments on the pros and cons of this adventure. weather i follow through with this is another story but i wanted to know the ins and outs of what it would take. i dont have a goal its and idea that ive always wanted to do since i was younger. and like ive stated before if i did decide to do this it wouldnt be for years to come


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

American_Pit13 said:


> Building a business and creating life are nothing close to the same.


Amen to that :goodpost:


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

MSK said:


> The pros and cons have been given the #1 con is that there are millions of unwanted dogs being put to sleep every year do you really want to add to that?? 9/10 of those dogs are mixed breed dogs.


yes i know ive read it over and over. people arent giving the pros though they only see evil in change


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

J_hulk said:


> yes i know ive read it over and over. people arent giving the pros though they only see evil in change


*THERE ARE NO PROS* lol That's why they cant be given. WHAT would be the PRO of causing more dogs to go to their deaths when so many breeds already exist!?? You are not reading man! I am all for change, I am NOT for people creating mutts in the jhopes of one day getting their name in hostory book as the one who started a new breed when so many are dying each day. WHAT don't you get? they already exist!


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

ames said:


> As someone already mentioned Dogo's are pretty damn close... they are made up of Great Dane, Boxer, Spanish Mastiff, Old English Bulldog, Bull Terrier, Great Pyrenees, Pointer, Irish Wolfhound and Dogue de Bordeaux.
> 
> Dogo Argentino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> WHY do you want to add to the already overpopulated shelters? Thats what I really want to know. Its not about if you CAN create a new breed, its what is behind the desire? A selfish need to get your name in some history books? What else could be the reason to create another breed of dog when so many are dying already? Or are you asking because its hypothetical and you really know in your heart its unrealistic to do this? I know nothing about you except what you are posting. Do you own dogs now?


its not a fact of wanting to add to shelters. that really isnt something that i think should even be a question. i doubt anyone would have that goal.
yes ive already said that ive rescued 2 pitbull mixes.



American_Pit13 said:


> Building a business and creating life are nothing close to the same.


yes and no. if you own or start abusiness then you would know that they should both have the the same love and determination behind them. and most people dont see that which is why they struggle in life to get ahead


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

All the pros there could be are pros of the creator and are mostly selfish. There are no real pros in creating life it is hard works and lots and lots of time and money. The only pro is having a living organism that loves you but, you get that with any dog breed. They can give you great happiness but, as far as a pro from creating a new breed there really are none unless you have a purpose that no other breed or cross breed was bred for there are no available pros.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

ames said:


> *THERE ARE NO PROS* lol That's why they cant be given. WHAT would be the PRO of causing more dogs to go to their deaths when so many breeds already exist!?? You are not reading man! I am all for change, I am NOT for people creating mutts in the jhopes of one day getting their name in hostory book as the one who started a new breed when so many are dying each day. WHAT don't you get? they already exist!


im not trying to get my name in the history books my name will continue with my children just as my name has.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ames said:


> *THERE ARE NO PROS*


Exactly. There is nothing you can bring to the table that's not already there. People are always breeding better dogs. Within their breed and bettering the next generation to excel at what they choose, not by making new breeds that are unneeded, inconsistent, and offer nothing that doesn't already exist. Your ideas are no different than the labradoodle.


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## LoveMyBully17 (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't see any kind of sense in creating a new dog breed. For the purpose of saying you did, and you were successful? Just cause you have businesses and shit are you're successful in that, doesn't mean you need to create a dog 'breed.' Or try. Sounds like you're just high on yourself and trying to prove something. You should probably stick to what you're apparently successful at and leave it at that. 
As far as the statement you made about security purposes, where I come from, we don't need our dog to stand in our place and fight for us. We pick up a gun and shoot the bastard that comes unwelcome in to our home.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Exactly. There is nothing you can bring to the table that's not already there. People are always breeding better dogs. Within their breed and bettering the next generation to excel at what they choose, not by making new breeds that are unneeded, inconsistent, and offer nothing that doesn't already exist. Your ideas are no different than the labradoodle.


ok ive thought about that also. so i have a question if i were to stick to one breed but i wanted to change it how would i go about that. i understand the concept of selective breeding but if i want to stick to a lets say an american bully and only keep it pure bred but i wanted it the size of a mastiff in height but the same muscular build. how would i go about that? it would keep all of its traits besides height and if i can improve the health issues. ive also thought about this. but i figured i would probably get the same answers as this topic


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

You don't change breeds.....A mastiff is the build of a bully. People wanted to change the APBT and look at the bully mess. If it ain't broke don't fix it! Also do you know how genetics work? You don't get to pick what traits you will keep.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

LoveMyBully17 said:


> I don't see any kind of sense in creating a new dog breed. For the purpose of saying you did, and you were successful? Just cause you have businesses and shit are you're successful in that, doesn't mean you need to create a dog 'breed.' Or try. Sounds like you're just high on yourself and trying to prove something. You should probably stick to what you're apparently successful at and leave it at that.
> As far as the statement you made about security purposes, where I come from, we don't need our dog to stand in our place and fight for us. We pick up a gun and shoot the bastard that comes unwelcome in to our home.


i see your point but as for where i come from i believe that guns are for the weak and your hands will prove if your man enough or not. and just hypothetically speaking if you have a gun and the robber somehow over powers you and is able to get the gun from you and accidentlly shoots your child(god forbid) then a gun wouldnt have been such a good idea huh? but of course that is a purely hypothetical


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> i see your point but as for where i come from i believe that guns are for the weak and your hands will prove if your man enough or not. and just hypothetically speaking if you have a gun and the robber somehow over powers you and is able to get the gun from you and accidentlly shoots your child(god forbid) then a gun wouldnt have been such a good idea huh? but of course that is a purely hypothetical


When the robber breaks in with his own gun and shots your dog what you gonna do?

If you use your own hands why do you need to make guard dogs?

Also you keep mentioning guard dogs and then WP yet seem to be stuck on looks. What a dog looks like is not even a caring factor for a working bred dog. Function is what matters. No one who has use for a working dog will care if it looks like the breeds YOU want it to resemble.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

J_hulk said:


> im not trying to get my name in the history books my name will continue with my children just as my name has.


then WHY do you want to try to create a new breed of dog? There is no reason since the traits you are looking for already exists in one breed or another.


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## LoveMyBully17 (Apr 17, 2012)

Then I don't understand why you'd need a new dog breed for some security purpose. Using your hands proves if you're man enough or not, right? If you're man enough, you can take him down on your own. If you're not, your mutt can fight for you, then a robber can pull out a gun of his own that he's probably already carrying in the first place, shoot you, and your dog, then you can go down in the history books as an idiot. Sounds legit to me. Good luck with that. 
I'd rather use a gun and shoot a man that's intruding in my home, probably carrying a weapon, than I would go all hands against him, have him pull a gun and shoot me anyway. Sorry, that's not for me. But whatever floats your boat.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> You don't change breeds.....A mastiff is the build of a bully. People wanted to change the APBT and look at the bully mess. If it ain't broke don't fix it! Also do you know how genetics work? You don't get to pick what traits you will keep.


and thats exactly what i was talking about getting the same response even if it meant bettering a breed. people are so against change no matter if its for better or not. im saying improve the american bully as keep the build but rid the health issues. and no its not i doubt your going to find a mastiff with the same height to muscle ratio. if that was the case it would be the most muscular dog in the world. yes i know you dont get to pick and choose the traits but the point im trying to get across is even if i wanted to better a breed weather it be make a bully taller or making a whippet faster i would get the same response as creating a new breed. as you just proved my point


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

the point that we care about dogs dying each day and trying to stop people from making more? The point that the trait you are looking for already exists in breeds out there? What point did she prove? You are really just repeating yourself because you do not like the answer that it should not be done and the reason why it should not be done are not good enough for you. Only a pompous ass thinks they can better a breed without realize how many great breeds already exist.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

LoveMyBully17 said:


> Then I don't understand why you'd need a new dog breed for some security purpose. Using your hands proves if you're man enough or not, right? If you're man enough, you can take him down on your own. If you're not, your mutt can fight for you, then a robber can pull out a gun of his own that he's probably already carrying in the first place, shoot you, and your dog, then you can go down in the history books as an idiot. Sounds legit to me. Good luck with that.
> I'd rather use a gun and shoot a man that's intruding in my home, probably carrying a weapon, than I would go all hands against him, have him pull a gun and shoot me anyway. Sorry, that's not for me. But whatever floats your boat.


well like everything there is always going to be someone stronger than you. but me personally i would rather protect my family and give the robber what he want and leave my family unharmed then try to pull a gun on him and he ends up shooting first and killing my family. but if thats what you would prefer to happen then hey more power to you.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

ames said:


> the point that we care about dogs dying each day and trying to stop people from making more? The point that the trait you are looking for already exists in breeds out there? What point did she prove? You are really just repeating yourself because you do not like the answer that it should not be done and the reason why it should not be done are not good enough for you. Only a pompous ass thinks they can better a breed without realize how many great breeds already exist.


the point she proves was that people will RESPOND THE SAME WAY WEATHER IT BE BETTERING A BREED OR CREATING A NEW ONE. the response was the same. i went with her suggestion and she responded the same way as to the topic


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

You are not understanding what we are saying because you don't have enough experience. What she is trying to get at is, when you start changing a breed from their original purpose I.E. the APBT getting turned into the AmBully, you get a mess on your hands. There are some good people working to fix the AmBully but, it will take decades to fix the breed as whole. That is why you don't mess with genetics when there is nothing wrong with them to begin with. If you go to a reputable breeder that is keeping their dogs to original standard, you will come across less health problems and overall healthier dogs. It takes more then one person to fix a breed you can try to help but, you need to have the proper information on the breed, know what they are for and not for, and what characteristics are supposed to be there.


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## LoveMyBully17 (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to say "Here, take anything you want in my house, whatever you want, don't touch my family or my kids, I'll give you whatever you want out of my house!" THAT shows weakness to me.
I'm sorry if you don't know how to use a gun quickly enough or properly, but where I come from, I do, and everyone else does. As soon as I see a robber kicking down my door, or breaking through my window, I'm pulling a gun, and firing. I'm not fumbling around for bullets, mine are already loaded and waiting to go. I'm not waiting to see if he's going to be stronger than me. There's no hesitation there. No one is harming my family, and I'm not taking the cowardly way out and letting him take whatever he wants.
Be a man huh? Let him intrude your home and take your property. If that's what YOU want, power to you.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> and thats exactly what i was talking about getting the same response even if it meant bettering a breed. people are so against change no matter if its for better or not. im saying improve the american bully as keep the build but rid the health issues. and no its not i doubt your going to find a mastiff with the same height to muscle ratio. if that was the case it would be the most muscular dog in the world. yes i know you dont get to pick and choose the traits but the point im trying to get across is even if i wanted to better a breed weather it be make a bully taller or making a whippet faster i would get the same response as creating a new breed. as you just proved my point


The thing is your not bettering anything. I am not sure why you don't get it, but bettering a breed doesn't mean playing with it to suit what you want.

Bullies already have mastiff in them so what would adding more mastiff do? You really just have no clue what you are talking about and have SEVERAL people telling you the same thing, but you refuse to listen. You wanted opinions and got it, but don't like what your hearing so refuse to understand. Breeders breed dogs of the SAME BREED and desired traits to create a better future of dogs among the same standards. They don't just drop their consistency and start mixing things up to see what may come out.

There are already bandogs and several guardian breeds, no need to try to create a new type of guard dog. WP is a sport not a purpose. Racing is a sport not a purpose.

You have been met with hostility because everything you are saying is exactly what is ruining dogs. Those of us to really care about the future of dogs don't care for "newbies" creating or thinking of creating more problems that will in turn effect all our dogs.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

ames said:


> the point that we care about dogs dying each day and trying to stop people from making more? The point that the trait you are looking for already exists in breeds out there? What point did she prove? You are really just repeating yourself because you do not like the answer that it should not be done and the reason why it should not be done are not good enough for you. Only a pompous ass thinks they can better a breed without realize how many great breeds already exist.


if bettering a breed make you a pompous ass then that would mean that every reputable breeder out there is one seeing as they are continuously trying to better there breed. but i do no understand how trying to better a breed makes you pompous ass thats like saying if im trying to rid the health issues of a breed of dogs then i am a complete ass for trying.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

LoveMyBully17 said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm not going to say "Here, take anything you want in my house, whatever you want, don't touch my family or my kids, I'll give you whatever you want out of my house!" THAT shows weakness to me.
> I'm sorry if you don't know how to use a gun quickly enough or properly, but where I come from, I do, and everyone else does. As soon as I see a robber kicking down my door, or breaking through my window, I'm pulling a gun, and firing. I'm not fumbling around for bullets, mine are already loaded and waiting to go. I'm not waiting to see if he's going to be stronger than me. There's no hesitation there. No one is harming my family, and I'm not taking the cowardly way out and letting him take whatever he wants.
> Be a man huh? Let him intrude your home and take your property. If that's what YOU want, power to you.


well as a man i would. because i can replace anything in my house i would rather give up my house and everything in my wallet if it meant my family is safe. because i cant replace family. idk if you can but i certainly cant. and if putting my family first is weakness then i am weak. and i will admit that


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

Bettering the breed is not changing it. Bettering the breed is trying to fix things that shouldn't be there in the first place meaning if the animal has a defect DONT BREED IT!!! That is the bottom line.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> The thing is your not bettering anything. I am not sure why you don't get it, but bettering a breed doesn't mean playing with it to suit what you want.
> 
> Bullies already have mastiff in them so what would adding more mastiff do? You really just have no clue what you are talking about and have SEVERAL people telling you the same thing, but you refuse to listen. You wanted opinions and got it, but don't like what your hearing so refuse to understand. Breeders breed dogs of the SAME BREED and desired traits to create a better future of dogs among the same standards. They don't just drop their consistency and start mixing things up to see what may come out.


im not saying add mastiff im saying keeping everything in the american bully not adding any outside breed to it just making it taller and maybe less muscular seeing as they look really uncomfortable somtimes. and if i could along the process breed out some health issues. but like i said before even me considering that i get the same response


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> well as a man i would. because i can replace anything in my house i would rather give up my house and everything in my wallet if it meant my family is safe. because i cant replace family. idk if you can but i certainly cant. and if putting my family first is weakness then i am weak. and i will admit that


Well hopefully the people that rob you are nice and only care about taking your stuff while you are defenseless......


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## LoveMyBully17 (Apr 17, 2012)

As captain of a S.W.A.T team, and police officer, let me just tell you one thing. 99.9% of the time, if a robber breaks in your house, you're putting your family in more danger trying to bargain with him. Chances are, he's going to pull a gun on you. He's not going to give you the time to stand there and bargain with him, telling him whatever he wants is yours. Sorry if that's what you think happens, but in reality, it doesn't.
And I'm sorry if I'm weak by pulling out my guns, but I'm not standing around trying to make deals with a bastard that has intruded MY home.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> im not saying add mastiff im saying keeping everything in the american bully not adding any outside breed to it just making it taller and maybe less muscular seeing as they look really uncomfortable somtimes. and if i could along the process breed out some health issues. but like i said before even me considering that i get the same response


Why do they need to be taller? There are plenty of people breeding better bullies to better bullies and creating better bullies....You breed good dogs to good dogs.....


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Well hopefully the people that rob you are nice and only care about taking your stuff while you are defenseless......


yes i agree seeing that robbers want to rob you of your belongings


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

LoveMyBully17 said:


> As captain of a S.W.A.T team, and police officer, let me just tell you one thing. 99.9% of the time, if a robber breaks in your house, you're putting your family in more danger trying to bargain with him. Chances are, he's going to pull a gun on you. He's not going to give you the time to stand there and bargain with him, telling him whatever he wants is yours. Sorry if that's what you think happens, but in reality, it doesn't.
> And I'm sorry if I'm weak by pulling out my guns, but I'm not standing around trying to make deals with a bastard that has intruded MY home.


well then as a member of swat and and officer of the law it is your job to prevent that from happening in the first place. if i want to have dogs to deter would be robbers then i will


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> yes i agree seeing that robbers want to rob you of your belongings


Seems to be another thing your blissfully unaware of.. Just so ya know when a robber takes on a house that has people in it ( rather than robbing an empty one) he's not coming to ask what he can take.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Why do they need to be taller? There are plenty of people breeding better bullies to better bullies and creating better bullies....You breed good dogs to good dogs.....


well making them taller would thin them out more just like if you have a 5 foot person that weighs 180lbs and most of it is muscle. they look like giant meatballs but if you have the same weight and a lets say some one whos 5'9 then it would look totally different and would be more healthy for them seeing as being short and weighing alot puts alot of strain on your body


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Seems to be another thing your blissfully unaware of.. Just so ya know when a robber takes on a house that has people in it ( rather than robbing an empty one) he's not coming to ask what he can take.


well im not here to argue about robbers or would be robbers or guns or anything like that this is a dog forum and im talking about dogs. all that is irrelevant to the topic


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## LoveMyBully17 (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, it is. But no matter how many officers you have, there's always going to be something happening. You can't possibly prevent every single one from ever happening. I do my best, but I can't always be there to save wimpy asses like yourself. You have to know how to defend yourself. Your dog is only going to be a temporary distraction until he pulls a gun out and shoots it, and doesn't give a rats ass about you or your family. And isn't there to negotiate. What now?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> well making them taller would thin them out more just like if you have a 5 foot person that weighs 180lbs and most of it is muscle. they look like giant meatballs but if you have the same weight and a lets say some one whos 5'9 then it would look totally different and would be more healthy for them seeing as being short and weighing alot puts alot of strain on your body


The whole purpose of the breed is their look so again why change it. If you thin them out they aren't bully.......oke:oke:

They are being bred healthier already without messing with changing the breed.

The whole point of a breed is a group of dogs that fit that breeds standards. Breeding out of standard dogs isn't doing anything important.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

the hard headed always gotta feel it to believe it...
i think you should volunteer at a high kill shelter. watch all different breeds (esp bulldogs) come in off the streets. see first hand the conditions they lived under. clean and feed them. hope they find a new home. and witness them put down because they couldn't.
then consider the possibility of contributing to this cycle. the answer you are looking for, no matter how you wanna spin your intentions, will always be no.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Everyone has already given you so much advice! And sound advice at that! Please take it! We are here to educate. You don't CHANGE a breed, if you do, its no longer the same breed! Anyway, I am not going to repeat what everyone else already said. Words of wisdome here, you can do what you want with it.


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## noodlesgranny (May 31, 2010)

I'm sorry but from what I've read throughout this thread it seems like you sir are stuck on stupid.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

hello everyone. took a day to think to myself and read on this thread more. well i came to the conclusion that creating a new breed isnt for me. i took everyones advice and decided that this is better off as an idea in my head thank you all for your time. now onto other questions


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Yay!  way to go!


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

o0k from another pov .. do you know how many generations it would take to stabilize a breed ?


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Glad you has an open mind and could step back and see what people were saying. I look forward to hearing your next questions lol


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## topgunkennels (Feb 1, 2010)

Msk like I said befor you cant fix stupid


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## mypitgia (Jun 28, 2010)

IMO not bashing but these breeds have been formed over centuries and the new one weren't done in a backyard. If you were a doctor or some sort of genetic scientist go for it. But by cross breeding your asking for a lot of problems. There are plenty good guard dogs with tremendous drive. Cane corso, GSD, Rotties dobermans, chow chows akitas dogo argentinos. I personally don't think that there is such a dog that makes a bad guard dog. They are usually a great deter ant, and I think thats the best type of guard dog, stopping a situation before any necessary action has to be taken.


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## CroBlondie (Aug 8, 2012)

J_hulk said:


> well i came to the conclusion that creating a new breed isnt for me.


This sentence made me laugh so freakin hard.It's just...the way you stated it...like-oh,i gave up on rearranging world country boundaries.

Not to be mean but it really cracks me up :roll:.


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