# Supporting pit bull fighting?



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

I know I will catch alot of  about this but it seems to me that the more I read in these forums the more i sense a support for dog fighting. It seams many users claim to have a fighting history and the only reason they stopped was because they got arrested. Known breeders of fighting dogs are treated like they did nothing wrong and when they get arrested it is somehow unfair. 
I know I'll piss alot of people off but I joined this site because I thought it was about loveing pitbulls and not about dog fighting undercover. I posted this because I am not sure if this is the place for me. I have learned a great deal about the history from many source and it is good to know but i dont think it should be romantized either.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

There are a lot of people that do not see anything wrong with it. Trust me you will never reason with them. To own this breed you need to reallize where it came from and traits were built into the breed. Owning this type of dog requires a lot of thick skin and understanding that your pit bull dog is not a labrador that can go to a dog park and have fun. These dogs thrive on the attention of their humans and that is all they care about. This is one of the best sites because a lot of us are against it and you can always express your opinion without being attacked.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Hi,

Welcome to the forum. There are alot of people who support the history and dogmen, I am a member of a few otherforums. This one I would have to say have the least supporters, it is a very family feeling here


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

I don't support it.

some support it from what I have seen and read but they don't do it because of the law.

You need to take into account that these dogs wouldn't be what they are without the history they have.. if that makes sense..

Also, not sure if this is a good topic to discuss, not because of censorship but because of what eyes could be lurking in the forum... Wouldn't want anyone in trouble because of hunches.


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## iloveyou (Oct 11, 2010)

Everyone has their own beliefs or their own way of thinking what is right or wrong. But just like anything in life, you have to learn to live with what other people think or believe.. 

I AM AGAINST IT ALL THE WAY & believe that pitbulls are only what their owners make them.


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## aprilortego (Aug 23, 2010)

Well I will first start off by telling you that I have NEVER fought, NEVER will support fighting of ANY DOGS. I understand where you are coming from but fighting is a part of our dogs history. IMO I don't think you were on GP that long to have a assumption like that. There are great pitbull owners who have and will support the positive aspect of are breed on this site. I am sorry you feel that way and in no way have I ever promoted or romantacized dog fighting in any of my post or threads. I will not give you  for your thoughts but I do ask you to stay a little longer on GP and see the great things that are done with this breed. Right now IMO the bigger issue is the BSL. Fighting has been banned BSL has not been stopped. We do accept owners on this site who have fought dogs and have stopped due to being caught or a change of lifestyle. We need all the help we can get with supporting the breed that we all know and love. I will not down someone for their past as we are not perfect we are only human.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm sorry you get that vibe here. Most of us on here are very family, dog loving oriented.

I have noticed where ppl who really know the history of the pitbull talk about fighting back in the day. But they are by no means dog fighting supporters, they are just openly discussing the history, good/bad of the breed. It is what it is, you can't rewrite history but you can learn from it & make a better future for the breed.

I've been a member over a year now, have learned quite a bit & we're here to support each other & the rights of our dogs.

I like the fact that you opened up & expressed your concerns. Not that I'm saying there aren't shady ppl out there but I feel the least you have to be concerned with about this site is dog fighting.

:welcome: btw

Here are a few pics of my guy & gal:


















I'm still just totally confused & floored as to why you'd think we're about dog fighting here.

It's against forum rules, ppl get banned for blatantly supporting dog fighting.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I am 100% against the fighting of these dogs. However these dogs WILL fight if not properly socialized.

I would never fight my dog. I lost one of my dogs because of a dog fight(it was an accident),and it's not something I'd like to experience again.
I don't understand how such a thing could be called a "sport" It's very horrific to me.
However you do have to understand,that without the original dog men(fighters) there would not be pit bulls.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

People have to understand a street fight vs a judged rules pit fight

Definatly not trying start anything but alot of people have this vision that its this horrific to the death match.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> People have to understand a street fight vs a judged rules pit fight
> 
> Definatly not trying start anything but alot of people have this vision that its this horrific to the death match.


You will hear a lot of these types of comments about their "cajun rules" and my answer to those people is that quite simply pitbulls don't have gloves or protective gear. They are trying to rip each other apart or die trying, there is nothing pretty about that picture.

I also tell those that love dog fighting and these dogmen loving kids that these "dogmen" simply developed the breed because they were poor lower class that needed extra income back in the days and entertainment and since animal baiting was outlawed they turned men's best friend against each other for the entertainment of bloodsport loving maniacs.

There is nothing pretty about dog fighting and it was created for greed, money and sick entertainment, nothing else nothing more, so don't let them brainwash you with their rules and how these dog men could repair the dogs with their staple guns and their medicines. At the end of the day these men tried to prove something to other men regarding how much their dog could take punishment and how much they could deliver.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> You will hear a lot of these types of comments about their "cajun rules" and my answer to those people is that quite simply pitbulls don't have gloves or protective gear. They are trying to rip each other apart or die trying, there is nothing pretty about that picture.
> 
> I also tell those that love dog fighting and these dogmen loving kids that these "dogmen" simply developed the breed because they were poor lower class that needed extra income back in the days and entertainment and since animal baiting was outlawed they turned men's best friend against each other for the entertainment of bloodsport loving maniacs.
> 
> There is nothing pretty about dog fighting and it was created for greed, money and sick entertainment, nothing else nothing more, so don't let them brainwash you with their rules and how these dog men could repair the dogs with their staple guns and their medicines. At the end of the day these men tried to prove something to other men regarding how much their dog could take punishment and how much they could deliver.


IMO, those men should have broken out the ruler instead...


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> You will hear a lot of these types of comments about their "cajun rules" and my answer to those people is that quite simply pitbulls don't have gloves or protective gear. They are trying to rip each other apart or die trying, there is nothing pretty about that picture.


But they enjoy it. If they did not want to be there they 'turn', not scratch, or jump the box.

Im too tired for another debate 
So we do have diffrent views


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> But they enjoy it. If they did not want to be there they 'turn', not scratch, or jump the box.
> 
> Im too tired for another debate
> So we do have diffrent views


It has nothing to do with that  men designated what traits to breed in to the animal and off course they will follow their instinct. See I believe that these dogs actually want to go out there and fight and anyone who has read enough about breeds and behaviors will know this. However, dog fighting does absolutely nothing for society it does 0% for the dog owner it does 0% for it self.

When cattle dogs were created they were created to protect the land and the livestock from pedators. What does dog fighting do for us?boost your ego, put couple of thousand in your pocket.. exactly it does nothing.

Men designated these traits for MONEY, EGO and ENTERTAINMENT. :clap:


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

welcome, kinda confused by your findings here as I havent found anyone who is for fighting, maybe im missing those posts or something but all the gp family I have gotten a chance to know are 100% against it. really hope you stick around and get to know some us a bit better we all love our dogs as family and really have there best welfare at heart. Would love to know more about your dog/s and maybe some pics <3 seeing new pics on here ,


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> It has nothing to do with that  men designated what traits to breed in to the animal and off course they will follow their instinct. See I believe that these dogs actually want to go out there and fight and anyone who has read enough about breeds and behaviors will know this. However, dog fighting does absolutely nothing for society it does 0% for the dog owner it does 0% for it self.
> 
> When cattle dogs were created they were created to protect the land and the livestock from pedators. What does dog fighting do for us?boost your ego, put couple of thousand in your pocket.. exactly it does nothing.
> 
> Men designated these traits for MONEY, EGO and ENTERTAINMENT. :clap:


Morality is also man created and culture instilled... Just playing devil's advocate i guess...


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> People have to understand a street fight vs a judged rules pit fight
> 
> Definatly not trying start anything but alot of people have this vision that its this horrific to the death match.


this is what i've been seeing alot. plus a lot of im against it but type of comments. now i know alot have stated plenty of times they are against it but the ones for it say that too so they want get in trouble


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

It doesn't matter what veiws we all have, i will try my best to get along with everyone 
I wouldn't let it get to you, as others have said this is a family feeling forum. Great people with great info


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

jmejiaa said:


> Morality is also man created and culture instilled... Just playing devil's advocate i guess...


So you are saying that living in anarchy is better than having any rules for society at all? Even animals have extremely a sophisticated infrastructure for their communities and this is how they survive.

Greed and bloodlust is some of the drivers of serial killers so I guess it's ok?


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> But they enjoy it. If they did not want to be there they 'turn', not scratch, or jump the box.
> 
> Im too tired for another debate
> So we do have diffrent views


you understand though that the only reason they enjoy it is because people bred them to be that way... its not natural for two animals of the same species to kill each other for no reason.

and back to the op, i personally believe that there has got to be something not completely right with a person if they enjoy watching two beautiful animals tear each other apart for entertainment purposes...


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

My Friend who happens to be in the military & I were having a similar debate about war/religion - he's an 'atheist' which imo is a form of a religion... Believes that religion is to blame for all the world crises... He also stated as a militant, that he would never want world peace because then he'd be out of a job... 

Which was a whole new side I saw & really urked me he would think, much less say that.

I feel if it weren't for religion/beliefs what would stop ppl from doing the horrific inevitable. If not religion, there would be something else causing chaos... We look for it, another reason we're so obsessed with vampires these days... 

Animals kill/fight for survival/procreating - their in natural instinct/survival mode when it comes to fighting killing...

IMO it's hypocritical as human beings to place animals in a fighting situation... Then not go out and save a whale from beaching itself because 'it's nature taking it's course'.

Animals don't have the abilities we were blessed with knowing right from wrong, we should at least try to do good with it. We are aware with our brains & thumbs of what's right & wrong it's not a matter of being taught, but we do condition ourselves & desensitize ourselves when it comes to doing what we 'want' vs what is right.


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> this is what i've been seeing alot. plus a lot of im against it but type of comments. now i know alot have stated plenty of times they are against it but the ones for it say that too so they want get in trouble


You also need to take into account that it is a public forum, you will ALWAYS see things and meet people with ideas different than yours, it's what makes them such great places for knowledge.



davidfitness83 said:


> So you are saying that living in anarchy is better than having any rules for society at all? Even animals have extremely a sophisticated infrastructure for their communities and this is how they survive.
> 
> Greed and bloodlust is some of the drivers of serial killers so I guess it's ok?


Not what I was trying to say. You mentioned human traits as to why people want to fight, I mentioned that the reason people want to stop it is also a human trait. Rules are good, that's why UFC and boxing is OK and legal, because as long as we have rules go ahead and beat each other senseless, because we all know those aren't for money/egos.

No one would care if these were animals in the wild fighting, which also happens.. But I guess like many other things, humans made this we made these dogs into what they are, be it for good loving pets like our pets are or for ruthless dog fights...

Like I said, I'm completely against dog fighting... Your comments just seemed interesting I guess..


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

You do not train a dog to fight you condition him. They are not killing each other they are competeing.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

MISSAPBT - you also come from a completely different culture than most of americans, who happen to be on here.

I do not agree with what you practice per se, but I can respect you & agree to disagree 

Which makes me wonder.

What are the rules you follow - how long do you go for?

PS - the photos of your pups are beautiful, they look too pampered to come off as if you fight/support fighting??


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

I don't fight my dogs Lex's  I do have to remember that i am not from USA. But i do respect dogmen and what they have done for our breed, we would not have our dogs today if it was not for them. I see it as a sport.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

I didn't think so, do the same laws against DF apply in NZ?

Okay, I see where you are coming from now  I was a little confused. 

I don't see it as a sport, I don't like it... but I also don't like greyhound racing & horse racing either, I think what happens behind the scenes to those animals (that's perfectly legal) is just as effed up if not more so than DF. 

Here it's all underground & when done so, there's no 'guidelines' 'standards', it's pretty brutal & still is which is why ppl get so bent outta shape


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

j-crash said:


> you understand though that the only reason they enjoy it is because people bred them to be that way... its not natural for two animals of the same species to kill each other for no reason.
> 
> and back to the op, i personally believe that there has got to be something not completely right with a person if they enjoy watching two beautiful animals tear each other apart for entertainment purposes...


:goodpost:

I couldn't have said it better


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Yes it is very illegal here.

I accept your opinion on the subject.



> Here it's all underground & when done so, there's no 'guidelines' 'standards', it's pretty brutal & still is which is why ppl get so bent outta shape


I have only one word, IDIOTS!


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> I see it as a sport.


i am curious how you consider it a sport? (im being 100% serious... im not trying to come off sounding like a jerk) for me its entertainment for the people that watch it... thats it
that would be like calling horse racing a sport... the only reason it exist is so people can wager on it.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

jmejiaa said:


> You also need to take into account that it is a public forum, you will ALWAYS see things and meet people with ideas different than yours, it's what makes them such great places for knowledge.
> 
> Not what I was trying to say. You mentioned human traits as to why people want to fight, I mentioned that the reason people want to stop it is also a human trait. Rules are good, that's why UFC and boxing is OK and legal, because as long as we have rules go ahead and beat each other senseless, because we all know those aren't for money/egos.
> 
> ...


the comparison of animal fighting to boxing and mma is completely irrelevant, dogs are not human that have a cognition. You teach a litter of puppies to attack pidgeons and you select the pups that do it the best. In ten generations you will have pidgeon killers lol

Humans can choose to grow up to be anything they want to be, some want to do mma some want to be a lawyer. The dog's brain is no where near as complex to a human to even make a fair comparison, not even a monkey can be compared to a human when it comes to behavior even though they are pretty close.

You breed dog agression into a dog and keep selecting that is all you are going to get.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> the comparison of animal fighting to boxing and mma is completely irrelevant, dogs are not human that have a cognition. You teach a litter of puppies to attack pidgeons and you select the pups that do it the best. In ten generations you will have pidgeon killers lol
> 
> Humans can choose to grow up to be anything they want to be, some want to do mma some want to be a lawyer. The dog's brain is no where near as complex to a human to even make a fair comparison, not even a monkey can be compared to a human when it comes to behavior even though they are pretty close.
> 
> You breed dog agression into a dog and keep selecting that is all you are going to get.


:goodpost:

:rofl: I like the pigeon killer analogy, that was great


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Lex's Guardian said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> :rofl: I like the pigeon killer analogy, that was great


thank you :woof: I saw on tv some dog breed that was created to kill cobras I forgot the name but that is pretty cool..


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

j-crash said:


> i am curious how you consider it a sport? (im being 100% serious... im not trying to come off sounding like a jerk) for me its entertainment for the people that watch it... thats it
> that would be like calling horse racing a sport... the only reason it exist is so people can wager on it.


Im not going to get into a debate, cos there are too many of you and only one of me 

They compete, they do a 'keep' for a couple months before the match, the owner bleeds and sweats with that dog, that dog gets the best of the best food wise excecise wize ect.

Those animals choose to be in that pit. Dogmen would not bother putting a dog in the pit that is not wanting to battle. That is what game testing is for, to test weather that dog wants to be there.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Im not going to get into a debate, cos there are too many of you and only one of me
> 
> They compete, they do a 'keep' for a couple months before the match, the owner bleeds and sweats with that dog, that dog gets the best of the best food wise excecise wize ect.
> 
> Those animals choose to be in that pit. Dogmen would not bother putting a dog in the pit that is not wanting to battle. That is what game testing is for, to test weather that dog wants to be there.


Ah, don't feel out numbered or like anyone's hatin' on ya...

Just that since there are opposing POV's just trying to understand yours & get inside ya head a bit more.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Im probally going to have some Police at my doorstep from these posts, im just going to make it clear again i do not fight my dogs, i just have a passion for game dogs and their history 



Lex's Guardian said:


> Ah, don't feel out numbered or like anyone's hatin' on ya...
> 
> Just that since there are opposing POV's just trying to understand yours & get inside ya head a bit more.


Ok, im going to play it cool, i get worked up a little easy. But today i will listen to others opinions hehe


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Im not going to get into a debate, cos there are too many of you and only one of me
> 
> They compete, they do a 'keep' for a couple months before the match, the owner bleeds and sweats with that dog, that dog gets the best of the best food wise excecise wize ect.
> 
> Those animals choose to be in that pit. Dogmen would not bother putting a dog in the pit that is not wanting to battle. That is what game testing is for, to test weather that dog wants to be there.


Yeah the dogmen ain't running on the mill for 2 hours with the dog. He hooks the dog to the mill and goes to relax, some keeps required road work but it's the dog doing the work. It's the dog bleeding and getting bit while the dogmen just watches. You tell me how much work the dogmen is doing? the rubdown could be a workout I guess.

Again you try to deviate like all the pro dog fighters with the game test and the fact the dog wants to be there. Off course he wants to kill the other dog that is the instict to hunt the dog and kill it. That is not what we are talking about, we are talking about how men bred these traits into the animal for entertainment, ego and money.

In your gamedog site all of you jump at people insulting and cursing too bad you can't do that here

By the way when these pro dog fighters have no way out of an arguement they start talking about the goverment taking their freedoms away...:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Oh and they start talking about rapist and killers in prison and how these are the real bad people and dog fighters are normal people and they should be left alone.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Im not here to curse and insult, so i dont know what you are talking about.

Your post is just sounding sarcastic and ignorant so im not going to bother trying to explain what i beleive to you. Go read my other posts i have written eg: Dr Phil on dogfighting!?


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Im not here to curse and insult, so i dont know what you are talking about.
> 
> Your post is just sounding sarcastic and ignorant so im not going to bother trying to explain what i beleive to you. Go read my other posts i have written eg: Dr Phil on dogfighting!?


So I sound ignorant because I tell the truth about the keeps?

Do the dogmen run beside the dog while it is hooked to a mill for hours?

Do the dogmen get in the pit and take bites and injuries like their dog does in the fight?

Do the dogmen chain themselves in a desolate yard and live with the gamedogs secluded from the world, living in barrels or little wooden homes chained up all day until it's time to work out?

What do you think would happen if I went to gamedog and I said all of this? you tell me what these nice people would say to me...


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> So I sound ignorant because I tell the truth about the keeps?
> 
> Do the dogmen run beside the dog while it is hooked to a mill for hours? Have you ever heard of a slat free running mill.
> 
> ...


My answers in red


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> So I sound ignorant because I tell the truth about the keeps?
> 
> Do the dogmen run beside the dog while it is hooked to a mill for hours?
> 
> ...


That's where we need to be different . Passionate about our beliefs, yes but I don't fully think MISSAPBT is here to stir shiz


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

popcorn,puhleeze.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

william williamson said:


> popcorn,puhleeze.


I got bugles


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> My answers in red


So where is all this hard work you are talking about that the dogmen does that is what I really want to know?? tell me..? The dogs do all the work while the dog men hang out..

If my Bernie was kept outside in a hot summer day he would die of heat stroke I think he preffers the couch with the AC full blast. I never knew that sitting on the sun with the sun blasting a dog would make them cooler.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Lex's Guardian said:


> I got bugles


the edible kind.thank God.we got one bugle tooter on this one already.hehehe.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Handwalking/running, flirt pole, feeds, keeping that dog in the best condition he can.

Please enlighten me what the American Pitbull Terrier was bred for? Bullbatting also yes, but what else? Its was not bred to be a pet, it may be now. Also is that your dog in your avatar, you are talking about having luxury of aircon?

I dont have aircon and im not going to leave my dog couped up in a house all day while i am at work. Our temperatures only get up to maybe maximum 28-30 degrees.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Originally Posted by davidfitness83 
So I sound ignorant because I tell the truth about the keeps?

Do the dogmen run beside the dog while it is hooked to a mill for hours? *Have you ever heard of a slat free running mill.*Doesnt matter how they do it training a dog for the pit is ILLEGAL

Do the dogmen get in the pit and take bites and injuries like their dog does in the fight? *If that dog does not want to be there it doesnt have to! I have already explained this*You are right if the dog does not want to be there it gets a bullet in the head = great choices!! I would go into the pit too.

Do the dogmen chain themselves in a desolate yard and live with the gamedogs secluded from the world, living in barrels or little wooden homes chained up all day until it's time to work out? *I chain my dogs, does that make me a bad person? I dont take my dogs out of my property, maybe 3 times a year! Does that make me a bad person? People are forgetting these are animals that humans have turned into pets, is it fair that a dog is crated inside an apartment on a hot summers day for the whole day?*My dogs are crated for 12-14 hours a day due to our schedule but guess what they go out for a long walk to the river or lake everyday and twice some days. Yes a bad owner does not socialize their dogs which would be what you are not doing.

What do you think would happen if I went to gamedog and I said all of this? you tell me what these nice people would say to me...
*They would tell you where to go, do on there and do so, i am trying to be civil, i am not here to insult people, do not steriotype me on something that happenes on GD*Civil would be embracing the history of this breed and realizing that that history is just that HISTORY and does not have a purpose in this day in age.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

My brother's American BUlldog died of a heat stroke this summer because my immature niece took the dog jogging right around noon time. I think the dog would still be alive today if it had been inside the home with the AC. 

I don't know how the weather is NZ but in Jersey it is blazing inferno in the summer and the pavement is almost like a grill. Dogs feet can't handle it and it gets very humind. Maybe where you live it is a lot cooler and less humind than here.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

william williamson said:


> the edible kind.thank God.we got one bugle tooter on this one already.hehehe.


:rofl::rofl:


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Handwalking/running, flirt pole, feeds, keeping that dog in the best condition he can.
> 
> Please enlighten me what the American Pitbull Terrier was bred for? Bullbatting also yes, but what else? Its was not bred to be a pet, it may be now. Also is that your dog in your avatar, you are talking about having luxury of aircon?
> 
> I dont have aircon and im not going to leave my dog couped up in a house all day while i am at work. Our temperatures only get up to maybe maximum 28-30 degrees.


My dog has a custom keep and he does flirt pole, weight pull, tug of war, hand walking and tracking exercises every week.

He is a couch potatoe when he drains his energy.. he deserves to work and needs to work and I agree with you on that 100% I can't stand to see an overweight dog because of their owner and I think it is just as inhumane to do that to a dog.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> Handwalking/running, flirt pole, feeds, keeping that dog in the best condition he can.
> 
> Please enlighten me what the American Pitbull Terrier was bred for? Bullbatting also yes, but what else? *Its was not bred to be a pet*, it may be now. Also is that your dog in your avatar, you are talking about having luxury of aircon?
> 
> I dont have aircon and im not going to leave my dog couped up in a house all day while i am at work. Our temperatures only get up to maybe maximum 28-30 degrees.


This is where you are wrong... Look at any history book there were two putposes for this breed, fighting (bull or dog) and family companion. The same dogs that were thrown in the pit slept with their masters children at night. That is the difference between history and now. Supposed dogmen now chain their dogs to a tree and pay them no attention except when its conveinent to them. This breed needs its people!!


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> This is where you are wrong... Look at any history book there were two putposes for this breed, fighting (bull or dog) and family companion. The same dogs that were thrown in the pit slept with their masters children at night. That is the difference between history and now. Supposed dogmen now chain their dogs to a tree and pay them no attention except when its conveinent to them. This breed needs its people!!


:goodpost: wow :clap:


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> This is where you are wrong... Look at any history book there were two putposes for this breed, fighting (bull or dog) and family companion. The same dogs that were thrown in the pit slept with their masters children at night. That is the difference between history and now. Supposed dogmen now chain their dogs to a tree and pay them no attention except when its conveinent to them. This breed needs its people!!


Do you know dogmen who do this? Do you have dogmen friends? or is this just all what you see an hear in the media or from other friends who have closed minds?
Where do you get your information on todays dogmen?


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> This is where you are wrong... Look at any history book there were two putposes for this breed, fighting (bull or dog) and family companion. The same dogs that were thrown in the pit slept with their masters children at night. That is the difference between history and now. Supposed dogmen now chain their dogs to a tree and pay them no attention except when its conveinent to them. This breed needs its people!!


theirs alot of breeds and work dogs who are kenneled or on runs that do not get exorbidant amounts of attention.especially seasonal dogs.pointers,or water dogs,**** dogs, deer dogs,bear dogs and so on.
then theirs breeders,who have several dogs on their yards.theirs alot of people besides pit owners who have bred them down in their superiority.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

There's bear dogs


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Lex's Guardian said:


> There's bear dogs


Rhodesian ridgebacks,black and tans,walkers are used for them also.
theirs some guys that cross hunt bears and cougar with the same dogs.they will also use plott hounds,pits and catahoulas.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> It has nothing to do with that  men designated what traits to breed in to the animal and off course they will follow their instinct. See I believe that these dogs actually want to go out there and fight and anyone who has read enough about breeds and behaviors will know this. However, dog fighting does absolutely nothing for society it does 0% for the dog owner it does 0% for it self.
> 
> When cattle dogs were created they were created to protect the land and the livestock from pedators. What does dog fighting do for us?boost your ego, put couple of thousand in your pocket.. exactly it does nothing.
> 
> Men designated these traits for MONEY, EGO and ENTERTAINMENT. :clap:


:clap::clap::clap::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> Do you know dogmen who do this? Do you have dogmen friends? or is this just all what you see an hear in the media or from other friends who have closed minds?
> Where do you get your information on todays dogmen?


No dear this is real life experiences of my own. And if there is one thing you learn not to do by owning this breed that would be not to play into the media hype on anything.... :hammer::hammer:


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

pits,pit crosses are much more money driven and theirs a whole lot more emphasis put on the ego stroking with ownership today.
I've seen it here.some actually romanticize the pit,yet loathe it's origin.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

william williamson said:


> theirs alot of breeds and work dogs who are kenneled or on runs that do not get exorbidant amounts of attention.especially seasonal dogs.pointers,or water dogs,**** dogs, deer dogs,bear dogs and so on.
> then theirs breeders,who have several dogs on their yards.theirs alot of people besides pit owners who have bred them down in their superiority.


William I hate to inform you of this but this breed is just a tiny bit different than other breeds... Ummm thats why you like them


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> No dear this is real life experiences of my own. And if there is one thing you learn not to do by owning this breed that would be not to play into the media hype on anything.... :hammer::hammer:


You have experienced what we are talking about. 



davidfitness83 said:


> My brother's American BUlldog died of a heat stroke this summer because my immature niece took the dog jogging right around noon time. I think the dog would still be alive today if it had been inside the home with the AC.


I am sorry for his loss.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> William I hate to inform you of this but this breed is just a tiny bit different than other breeds... Ummm thats why you like them


and I have an ACD,my next dog will be A Mallinoise,and I've adopted A few mutts over the last 30 odd years.
today,as A result of people throwing the breed against the wall to see what sticks,and their watering down,they've lost alot of my primary interest.
I'm not nearly as crazy about whats left of the breed vs. what they were when when I got my first one 32 years ago.
theirs alot to be desired,in their present state.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> Those animals choose to be in that pit. Dogmen would not bother putting a dog in the pit that is not wanting to battle.


They choose because they were trained to do so,and don't know otherwise. IMO.

Also,No they would kill it instead,which is also not cool


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Xiahko said:


> They choose because they were trained to do so,and don't know otherwise. IMO.
> 
> Also,No they would kill it instead,which is also not cool


You cannot train a dog to fight. You can only condition him to. There are some very cold dogs that have come from two game parents.
Pits dogs are born not made/trained.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> You have experienced what we are talking about.
> 
> I am sorry for his loss.


Yes I was quite involved in taking down a family members illegal fighting ring. So I am not afraid of telling someone who just thinks its cool to watch two dogs rip eachother apart where to go.

I have known many true dogmen... I dont condone it in the least but their is a huge difference between dogmen of old and the punks that call themselves dogmen today.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> You cannot train a dog to fight. You can only condition him to. There are some very cold dogs that have come from two game parents.
> Pits dogs are born not made/trained.


Actually this whole breed holds the trait of fighting with or without training I will give you that. Its the humans that encourage it that baffle me.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Xiahko said:


> They choose because they were trained to do so,and don't know otherwise. IMO.
> 
> Also,No they would kill it instead,which is also not cool


you can't teach or train the cognitive art to battle.you condition the dog for the endurance,and feed the dog with proper dieting to promote the proper blood cell growth.the blood carries the oxegyn to the vital organs.the more oxegyn and muscalature and organ grooming you do the more energy and wind your dog will have.
I too was into training and street fighting.my trainer at the gym and the dojo put me through the same paces the dogs get put through.dieting,iron rich protiens,and iron absorption vegetables and such.
your not going to embarrass yourself bringing A cur to a convention.


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## gh32 (Dec 22, 2007)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I know I will catch alot of  about this but it seems to me that the more I read in these forums the more i sense a support for dog fighting. It seams many users claim to have a fighting history and the only reason they stopped was because they got arrested. Known breeders of fighting dogs are treated like they did nothing wrong and when they get arrested it is somehow unfair.
> I know I'll piss alot of people off but I joined this site because I thought it was about loveing pitbulls and not about dog fighting undercover. I posted this because I am not sure if this is the place for me. I have learned a great deal about the history from many source and it is good to know but i dont think it should be romantized either.


 My advice would be not to be so concerned that someone might support pre 1976 activities.Everyone is entitled to an opinion.They have theirs,you have your's.You have to remember that dog matching and the old time dogmen made this breed what it is.FYI this is by far the least supportive site I belong to.I'd say you're in the majority here.



MISSAPBT said:


> Im not going to get into a debate, cos there are too many of you and only one of me
> 
> They compete, they do a 'keep' for a couple months before the match, the owner bleeds and sweats with that dog, that dog gets the best of the best food wise excecise wize ect.
> 
> Those animals choose to be in that pit. Dogmen would not bother putting a dog in the pit that is not wanting to battle. That is what game testing is for, to test weather that dog wants to be there.


 I've agreed 110% with you MissAPBT.You're not entirely alone,FWIW



davidfitness83 said:


> What do you think would happen if I went to gamedog and I said all of this? you tell me what these nice people would say to me...


 The dogs of the past were not made to do anything they didn't want to do.I know what the people at G-D would say,it'd be the same as last time.Wether some agrees with the sport or not,I don't know why they care what someone else's opinion is. Like smoking pot,I don't smoke it but if someone else wants to,then I consider that's their business.


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## Jerretb (Oct 11, 2010)

100% against it, how would you like to be fought just for entertainment? 
I could never do that to my dogs, just seems ridiculous to me. No offense.


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## gh32 (Dec 22, 2007)

Anyway,this is a pretty pointless thread.If the original poster likes it here,then stay,if you don't go.Make yourself happy.Don't have to agree with everybody.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

gh32 said:


> Anyway,this is a pretty pointless thread.If the original poster likes it here,then stay,if you don't go.Make yourself happy.Don't have to agree with everybody.


I am really tired of seeing newbies post stuff like this... If it was so pointless why did you just spend time reading five whole pages...


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

william williamson said:


> popcorn,puhleeze.











Word, WWIII I got some for us both


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I know I will catch alot of  about this but it seems to me that the more I read in these forums the more i sense a support for dog fighting. It seams many users claim to have a fighting history and the only reason they stopped was because they got arrested. Known breeders of fighting dogs are treated like they did nothing wrong and when they get arrested it is somehow unfair.
> I know I'll piss alot of people off but I joined this site because I thought it was about loveing pitbulls and not about dog fighting undercover. I posted this because I am not sure if this is the place for me. I have learned a great deal about the history from many source and it is good to know but i dont think it should be romantized either.


I have not read any responses but here is mine. First a question why do you love pit bulls? Give me a reason and that reason will be directly linked to the dogmen/women and what they do for the breed. Well unless you reason is because they make you look big and bad walking down the street, cant help you there. This crap you see being pumped out from hollywood is crap PETA and the HSUS will say anything to make themselves look good thus getting more money from your pocket to their house note.

This breed is a gladiator and there are many people who do it right and the dogs are better cared for then the show dogs that live in crates until its time to run around a ring. These dogmen/women people like you knock put their lives on the line to preserve what we all love. Some day when the show bred curs are all losing their minds and go mentally unstable these same people knocking the game will be begging these dogmen/women to use their stock to breed the brains and good temperament back int their breed. Off to read some responses I am sure this will be an interesting read.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> You will hear a lot of these types of comments about their "cajun rules" and my answer to those people is that quite simply pitbulls don't have gloves or protective gear. They are trying to rip each other apart or die trying, there is nothing pretty about that picture.
> 
> I also tell those that love dog fighting and these dogmen loving kids that these "dogmen" simply developed the breed because they were poor lower class that needed extra income back in the days and entertainment and since animal baiting was outlawed they turned men's best friend against each other for the entertainment of bloodsport loving maniacs.
> 
> There is nothing pretty about dog fighting and it was created for greed, money and sick entertainment, nothing else nothing more, so don't let them brainwash you with their rules and how these dog men could repair the dogs with their staple guns and their medicines. At the end of the day these men tried to prove something to other men regarding how much their dog could take punishment and how much they could deliver.


Oh lord seriously? Poor? Do yo know the amount of time and money goes into a dog for a match? Most of the people of today wouldnt have what it takes to get a dog to the top, trust me its a lot more then these show dog people of today put into their dogs. Trust that!

Ultimate fighters dont have protective gear and they love what they do, some things like to fight be it humans, dogs, elk some just like the fight



> dog fighting does absolutely nothing for society it does 0% for the dog owner it does 0% for it self.


actually If you think about it this way. Make it a legal sport like UFC then it could generate a lot of income and taxes could actually do well for the economy (just saying from a business look on it)



> you understand though that the only reason they enjoy it is because people bred them to be that way... its not natural for two animals of the same species to kill each other for no reason.


Humans do it all the time as do dolphins, gorrillas etc


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

gamer said:


> I have not read any responses but here is mine. First a question why do you love pit bulls? Give me a reason and that reason will be directly linked to the dogmen/women and what they do for the breed. Well unless you reason is because they make you look big and bad walking down the street, cant help you there. This crap you see being pumped out from hollywood is crap PETA and the HSUS will say anything to make themselves look good thus getting more money from your pocket to their house note.
> 
> This breed is a gladiator and there are many people who do it right and the dogs are better cared for then the show dogs that live in crates until its time to run around a ring. These dogmen/women people like you knock put their lives on the line to preserve what we all love. Some day when the show bred curs are all losing their minds and go mentally unstable these same people knocking the game will be begging these dogmen/women to use their stock to breed the brains and good temperament back int their breed. Off to read some responses I am sure this will be an interesting read.


You should read what everyone wrote before going backwards in the argument with the pro dog fighter propaganda.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Jerretb said:


> 100% against it, how would you like to be fought just for entertainment?
> I could never do that to my dogs, just seems ridiculous to me. No offense.


What is Boxing or MMA? Fighting to entertain others.



SARGEnNIKITA said:


> I am really tired of seeing newbies post stuff like this... If it was so pointless why did you just spend time reading five whole pages...


Newbie? Maybe a newbie to GD but not to the breed.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

gamer said:


> Oh lord seriously? Poor? Do yo know the amount of time and money goes into a dog for a match? Most of the people of today wouldnt have what it takes to get a dog to the top, trust me its a lot more then these show dog people of today put into their dogs. Trust that!
> 
> Ultimate fighters dont have protective gear and they love what they do, some things like to fight be it humans, dogs, elk some just like the fight
> 
> ...


Show me historical information that disproves the reason for the creation of dog fighting.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Are you a bit sad that you got banned from GD? Is this why you are fighting this thread so hard?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> Show me historical information that disproves the reason for the creation of dog fighting.


Are you serious? Why not you do the work to educate yourself? call a few dogmen talk only historical about the amount of money put into just one match dog to get him in top shape, how many hours they spent with that dog getting him ready. Matching dogs was not for the poor if I must I will dig it up for you but really if you own this breed then ignorance to the sacrafices that dogmen/women made and what all went into making this breed the best breed out there is a shame


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## duckyp0o77 (Dec 5, 2008)

MISSAPBT said:


> What is Boxing or MMA? Fighting to entertain others.
> 
> *Newbie? Maybe a newbie to GD but not to the breed*.


I think that comment abt being tired of newbies posting stuff like that here was for gh32. it doesnt look like gh32 is a newbie since he/she has been a member sonce 2007 & the person referring to them has been member since 2010. just making an observation lol. but then again maybe theyre referring to the # of posts made.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Dog fighting was created for money, entertainment and ego boosting nothing else. There is no benefit to humankind from dog fighting besides the greedy ones that wanted to make money from it and enjoyed to watch two dogs rip each other apart to boost their ego of who bred the best fighting dog. You show me in your books what was the reason to create this animal abuse that argues against wht I am saying.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

A dog in my dogs pedigree was fought for 1000 bucks in 1860 something. Now why would these awesome dog owners do that ?  lol


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

What is the benefit for greyhound racing? horse racing? Human sports? a title. 


Animal abuse HA!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

If you can't read this hit "ctrl" and "+" until you can. Worth the read and great information.

















































and I posted this in the last thread regarding DF, but here it is again


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Jerretb said:


> 100% against it, how would you like to be fought just for entertainment?
> I could never do that to my dogs, just seems ridiculous to me. No offense.


theirs A whole network of underground not for pay fighting thats been going on in Miami since I was young.
their may have been side bets,yet for the most part no one got/gets paid.
we fought at clubs,bars,street races,the beach,warehouse districts etc.
they didn't dreaqm the concept up for movies like everywhich way but loose or fight club.
My father was A lineman for high line.he ran power across the US in the 40's and 50's.he fought at truck stops lumber camps cable yards honky tonks,anywhere the game was brought.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Now ya'll are just arguing for the sake of arguing... Not to prove a point.

Tax dog fighting? Really? Watch football & every other sport where the knowledgeable human that's in control of his/her fate can entertain you.

There's right, there's wrong. If a dog wants to fight in the wilderness, fine. But history & science proves dogs are PACK animals, plain & simple.

Why is there need for 'conditioning' a natural born fighter if that's what the animal 'wants' to do. Despite 'history' & what ppl did in the past - we really don't know what went on. We weren't there, most of us. Not everything that went on in the past was great but we can learn & grow from it.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> Dog fighting was created for money, entertainment and ego boosting nothing else. There is no benefit to humankind from dog fighting besides the greedy ones that wanted to make money from it and enjoyed to watch two dogs rip each other apart to boost their ego of who bred the best fighting dog. You show me in your books what was the reason to create this animal abuse that argues against wht I am saying.


That is with all sports though its not abuse it didnt become abuse until the HSUS put stupid things into people's heads like bait animals yes putting a apbt onto other animals is abusive and guess what the HSUS thought that one up for ya. The breed went to **** when the lawas were passed before that it couldnt just get a apbt you had to work for it prove you were worthy of owning the breed. You could just knock on a dogmans door and say I want a pup you had to prove you were worthy not now and that is why the breed is messed up now.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Lex's Guardian said:


> Why is there need for 'conditioning' a natural born fighter if that's what the animal 'wants' to do.


Some matches were OTC (Off the chain) meaning no condition, but if they were going to a match you would want to condition that dog as you never know what kind of condition the oponent is going to be in, so prepair as if he was they hulk.

Just like a boxer will condition himself for a fight you want to get to your full potential.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

gamer said:


> That is with all sports though its not abuse it didnt become abuse until the HSUS put stupid things into people's heads like bait animals yes putting a apbt onto other animals is abusive and guess what the HSUS thought that one up for ya. The breed went to **** when the lawas were passed before that it couldnt just get a apbt you had to work for it prove you were worthy of owning the breed. You could just knock on a dogmans door and say I want a pup you had to prove you were worthy not now and that is why the breed is messed up now.


Well I respect your honesty and you didn't run around in circles with my questions. Money and greed make people do crazy stuff


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

So zebo had to get his shoulder operated and reconstructed from a match. You tell me what akc show dog is going to suffer that kind of injury in the show ring lol


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

walking around a beauty padgent isnt a working dog, we are talking working dogs! Why are you even compairing Zebo to a show dog? Im sure Dave Adam wouldn't want to put his dog in a dog show!


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

MISSAPBT said:


> Some matches were OTC (Off the chain) meaning no condition, but if they were going to a match you would want to condition that dog as you never know what kind of condition the oponent is going to be in, so prepair as if he was they hulk.
> 
> Just like a boxer will condition himself for a fight you want to get to your full potential.


yes,and most guys knew their dogs and the dogs within 200 or so miles that someone would pop a match on.you had to always be ready.often the unscheduled bouts would not fall under match rules other than turns and scratches.
kinda like A charged up roll.
I had dogs that were kept at chain weight,and had regular walks/runs while i rode a bike.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Game-dogs. American pit bull terriers bred for a purpose. What is it you love about the APBT? I love the fact that it has a never ending will to please and a tenacity that keeps it from quitting. These are the things that Matching dogs show you. Witch dog is going to give its all for it's master. Why do people breed and compete in conformation to say they have the best dog. Why did people match dogs to say they had the best APBT. Then there was no standard just the true task that the dog was bred for. If you have no interest in the history of the dog IMO get a different dog. If you want apbt for different reason that is fine too. I just feel like people with no interest in the history of any breed are the reason for the watered down dogs we have today. If it is the case that you don't care for the history then, just don't be bothered by the people that love the dog for all the reasons it was made.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> walking around a beauty padgent isnt a working dog, we are talking working dogs!


Lol I know and I prefer working dogs but gamer said dogmen take care of thief dogs better than show people. So that is why I brought mr zebo up


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> So zebo had to get his shoulder operated and reconstructed from a match. You tell me what akc show dog is going to suffer that kind of injury in the show ring lol


Well we can go back and forth with this one, Show me a match dog that spent life in a house in a crate 23 hours a day. That is abuse plain and simple see a busted shoulder heals in time living in a crate for 12 years is life long abuse  I have seen agility dog be hurt should be ban that too? What if a SCH dog breaks his teeth doing bit work or hurts his back should we ban that too? Besides Zebo should have been a dead dog imo


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> Lol I know and I prefer working dogs but gamer said dogmen take care of thief dogs better than show people. So that is why I brought mr zebo up


They are treated better, and are more often then not loved more. Take a look at the prices of pups in the show world versus the game world now who is greedy?


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Take Allens tornado she was a double grandchamp the only one in the world.

she gets to sleep on the couch with the kids around, IMO a very happy girl


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

gamer said:


> Well we can go back and forth with this one, Show me a match dog that spent life in a house in a crate 23 hours a day. That is abuse plain and simple see a busted shoulder heals in time living in a crate for 12 years is life long abuse  I have seen agility dog be hurt should be ban that too? What if a SCH dog breaks his teeth doing bit work or hurts his back should we ban that too? Besides Zebo should have been a dead dog imo


Because he was a man biter ?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> Because he was a man biter ?


Exactly :clap:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The bulldog/APBT was bred for the box that is what they were bred for even though breeding and matching dogs is illegal in the United States it is still an active and legal sport in other parts of the world. You cannot pretend to love a breed such as the APBT and be ashamed of what they are and what they were bred for if you are so disgusted and ashamed by the breeds history or can't stomach the idea of a bulldog being matched you should own another breed of dog IMO. Every dog has a purpose an APBT is a fighting dog/working terrier. Preservation is key to keeping a breed true to it's purpose. What separates the APBT from any other breed of dog is GAMENESS!!! Gameness can often be described by definition but to see it is to truly understand it. Dog man of the past and present have given us these superior dogs without dog men working to preserve gameness within the breed we wouldn't have the APBT today. We have to be honest with ourselves when choosing to own a bulldog we cannot hide behind the purpose of these dogs and be true to who they really are without first accepting the truth about them. If you don't understand the mind of a bulldog and cannot accept them for who they are you are only setting the breed up to fail.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

So Honey bunch, tonka, tombstone, bullyson ect should have been killed?

I do not tolerate manbitters that are pets or arent good at what they are bred to do, but if you are getting ch's and gr ch manbitters i say go them, just be wary and handle them accordingly. anything less they should have got PTS.


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## aprilortego (Aug 23, 2010)

Sadie said:


> The bulldog/APBT was bred for the box that is what they were bred for even though breeding and matching dogs is illegal in the United States it is still an active and legal sport in other parts of the world. You cannot pretend to love a breed such as the APBT and be ashamed of what they are and what they were bred for if you are so disgusted and ashamed by the breeds history or can't stomach the idea of a bulldog being matched you should own another breed of dog IMO. Every dog has a purpose an APBT is a fighting dog/working terrier. Preservation is key to keeping a breed true to it's purpose. What separates the APBT from any other breed of dog is GAMENESS!!! Gameness can often be described by definition but to see it is to truly understand it. Dog man of the past and present have given us these superior dogs without dog men working to preserve gameness within the breed we wouldn't have the APBT today. We have to be honest with ourselves when choosing to own a bulldog we cannot hide behind the purpose of these dogs and be true to who they really are without first accepting the truth about them. If you don't understand the mind of a bulldog and cannot accept them for who they are you are only setting the breed up to fail.


:goodpost: :clap:

I will say that I do not and will not ever fight dogs but I am proud of our breed. History is history for a reason and we all own the dogs we do today because of history. With that being said, I can not judge someone for their past and I will not judge the dogmen of the past. I do not agree with fighting dogs or any animals but that is my opinion. Every pitbull has some form of fighting in its bloodline and owning this breed means we do not have to agree with what was done but we have to accept it as being a part of our dogs history.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

aprilortego said:


> :goodpost: :clap:
> 
> I will say that I do not and will not ever fight dogs but I am proud of our breed. History is history for a reason and we all own the dogs we do today because of history. With that being said, I can not judge someone for their past and I will not judge the dogmen of the past. I do not agree with fighting dogs or any animals but that is my opinion. Every pitbull has some form of fighting in its bloodline and owning this breed means we do not have to agree with what was done but we have to accept it as being a part of our dogs history.


:goodpost:

Thank you!!


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> So Honey bunch, tonka, tombstone, bullyson ect should have been killed?
> 
> I do not tolerate manbitters that are pets or arent good at what they are bred to do, but if you are getting ch's and gr ch manbitters i say go them, just be wary and handle them accordingly. anything less they should have got PTS.


Man biters no matter what or how well they perform in my yard would/will be put down, not worth breeding un realiable dogs to do well in any sport IMO


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Dogmen kept Man Biters as stated above me but they also understood them and knew how to properly handle them. The average joe blow has no business owning a game dog anyway let alone a man biter.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

I dont think honeybunch getting the judges thumb while he was separating a fanged dog makes her a man biter do you?


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Sadie said:


> Dogmen kept Man Biters as stated above me but they also understood them and knew how to properly handle them. The average joe blow has no business owning a game dog anyway let alone a man biter.


what do you theink the per capita would be from todays pit to those of gone by?


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## gh32 (Dec 22, 2007)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> I am really tired of seeing newbies post stuff like this... If it was so pointless why did you just spend time reading five whole pages...


 Not really a newbie,just got a low post count but what I was actually saying was that is isn't going to do any good to argue the matter.Why does it bother him what other people think as long as he's happy with what he thinks.For the most part I think everybody should just do what they like and make theirself happy without being concerned with what someone else believes.



davidfitness83 said:


> So zebo had to get his shoulder operated and reconstructed from a match. You tell me what akc show dog is going to suffer that kind of injury in the show ring lol


 The AKC has ruined more working breeds than it ever helped. I've known and heard of dogs being hurt,or killed while hunting(hog hunting is legal and that is REALLY what I'm talking of here) and it's a hazard of the job of a working dog.I've have stock dogs have their teeth kicked out by a cow.I've had a dog work his butt off killing a bobcat,he got cut up pretty good,but got his job done.When animals work,they can be hurt or killed but they like what they do,and for that I give them my respect. I feel the same way about the old dogs of the past that made the breed what it is.How can anyone not respect them.



Rudy4747 said:


> Game-dogs. American pit bull terriers bred for a purpose. What is it you love about the APBT? I love the fact that it has a never ending will to please and a tenacity that keeps it from quitting. These are the things that Matching dogs show you. Witch dog is going to give its all for it's master. Why do people breed and compete in conformation to say they have the best dog. Why did people match dogs to say they had the best APBT. Then there was no standard just the true task that the dog was bred for. If you have no interest in the history of the dog IMO get a different dog. If you want apbt for different reason that is fine too. I just feel like people with no interest in the history of any breed are the reason for the watered down dogs we have today. If it is the case that you don't care for the history then, just don't be bothered by the people that love the dog for all the reasons it was made.


 Good post



Sadie said:


> The bulldog/APBT was bred for the box that is what they were bred for even though breeding and matching dogs is illegal in the United States it is still an active and legal sport in other parts of the world. You cannot pretend to love a breed such as the APBT and be ashamed of what they are and what they were bred for if you are so disgusted and ashamed by the breeds history or can't stomach the idea of a bulldog being matched you should own another breed of dog IMO. Every dog has a purpose an APBT is a fighting dog/working terrier. Preservation is key to keeping a breed true to it's purpose. What separates the APBT from any other breed of dog is GAMENESS!!! Gameness can often be described by definition but to see it is to truly understand it. Dog man of the past and present have given us these superior dogs without dog men working to preserve gameness within the breed we wouldn't have the APBT today. We have to be honest with ourselves when choosing to own a bulldog we cannot hide behind the purpose of these dogs and be true to who they really are without first accepting the truth about them. If you don't understand the mind of a bulldog and cannot accept them for who they are you are only setting the breed up to fail.


Good post.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

I am the original poster and first I want to apoligize to MISSAPBT for singleing her out my first post was not about whether or not dog fighting was ok cause in my mind there is no doubt. I was and am still concerned that this site was very pro fighting but I guess that it pretty even I do thank everyone for posting. I personaly see a big difference between fighting and working dogs and my main interest was not supporting a site that supported something close to my heart heart like animal cruelety. Not that it matters but I think I wont completly right this site off. Thank you again


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Geez, MissAPBT, you were really taking some punishment on this one. I'm gonna rep you for keeping cool under fire.:thumbsup:

As for where I stand on this issue, as I've stated more than once on here, I respect what the old timers did and if it weren't for them we wouldn't have our dogs. End of story.

Personally, I don't think there is a need for DF in the present day but I am under no illusions and I know it is still active all over the world for better or worse.

The issue of dog fighting and the people who do it is not as black and white as davidfitness and a few others have suggested. Yes, there *are *people who view the dogs as livestock and see them as a means of income only. There *are* people who take unfit/stolen/unhealthy dogs out the back of construction sites and fight them to the death or until one quits and they get drowned/shot/electrocuted. However there are also people who spend inordinate amounts of time and money keeping their dogs in better shape and health than most show dogs and whose yards are immaculate and well tended.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I am the original poster and first I want to apoligize to MISSAPBT for singleing her out my first post was not about whether or not dog fighting was ok cause in my mind there is no doubt. I was and am still concerned that this site was very pro fighting but I guess that it pretty even I do thank everyone for posting. I personaly see a big difference between fighting and working dogs and my main interest was not supporting a site that supported something close to my heart heart like animal cruelety. Not that it matters but I think I wont completly right this site off. Thank you again


Mate, this has to be the least "pro dog fighting" APBT forum around. I think you'll find we just have a healthy diversity of opinions on the subject.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Thanks aus_staffy



Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I am the original poster and first I want to apoligize to MISSAPBT for singleing her out my first post was not about whether or not dog fighting was ok cause in my mind there is no doubt. I was and am still concerned that this site was very pro fighting but I guess that it pretty even I do thank everyone for posting. I personaly see a big difference between fighting and working dogs and my main interest was not supporting a site that supported something close to my heart heart like animal cruelety. Not that it matters but I think I wont completly right this site off. Thank you again


Im glad that you understand where i am coming from. Hope to see you stick around. This is definatly the most mild "DF suporting site" as i said before most members are wonderful caring, willing to help people


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## aprilortego (Aug 23, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> Geez, MissAPBT, you were really taking some punishment on this one. I'm gonna rep you for keeping cool under fire.:thumbsup:
> 
> As for where I stand on this issue, as I've stated more than once on here, I respect what the old timers did and if it weren't for them we wouldn't have our dogs. End of story.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

I also, will comend MissAPBT for keeping her cool :clap:, I don't think I could have but that is what is beautiful about GP, you can have your own thoughts and defend them with respect to the other person. I said in my original post and my last post that I do not and will not belive in fighting dogs but I do appericiate the dogs that were breed from these dogs. My Nila comes from the bullyson line and no I do not tolerate HA but with out bullyson I would not have the loyal and loving pet that I do today. There is always pros and cons to anything we do and it is a part of our dogs history and no matter what, you would not have the dog you have today with out it. IMO it is the ugly truth but it is what it is and we can not change the past. I just hope to educate the future.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

well if this is the least pro dog fighting forum I just dont know what to say I just never meant to point you out since I've seen alot other than you but what attracted me to this breed has nothing to do with fighting and it well plain sucks when im looking for info on this breed i find just stuff about fighting and so on and so on what i dont get how could this dog be considered that nanny breed if from what ive seen everyone agrees that you should never leave this breed alone whith basicly anything you don want distroyed.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> well if this is the least pro dog fighting forum I just dont know what to say I just never meant to point you out since I've seen alot other than you but what attracted me to this breed has nothing to do with fighting and it well plain sucks when im looking for info on this breed i find just stuff about fighting and so on and so on what i dont get how could this dog be considered that nanny breed if from what ive seen everyone agrees that you should never leave this breed alone whith basicly anything you don want distroyed.


You're reading Points of Views, related to history.

That's NOT what we're saying AT ALL


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

You wanna see a site that supports dog fighting? Try FB

I can't even count how many pages and pictures and videos of dog fights are on there.

Take Ipdc Jateng on FB for example.

We are in the process of getting him and his friends kicked off FB. But even after that happens,it's not exactly a victory. He will still be fighting and breeding dogs.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> well if this is the least pro dog fighting forum I just dont know what to say I just never meant to point you out since I've seen alot other than you but what attracted me to this breed has nothing to do with fighting and it well plain sucks when im looking for info on this breed i find just stuff about fighting and so on and so on what i dont get how could this dog be considered that nanny breed if from what ive seen everyone agrees that you should never leave this breed alone whith basicly anything you don want distroyed.


Correct, as this breed was bred for battle and to be gladiators, you will find minimal history unrelated to dog fighting.
I cherish what i have today they are like my kids. and i also accept where my dogs come from.

Something i can sugest is reserching some of your dogs bloodlines if you have papers, very nice to see some pictures and little storys of your dogs family tree.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Lex's Guardian said:


> You're reading Points of Views, related to history.
> 
> That's NOT what we're saying AT ALL


Correct. OP, you need to realise that you have a dog that is descended (somewhere down the line however long ago) from dogs that fought in the box. That doesn't mean that you need to dwell on that aspect of it but it's not something that should be glossed over or ignored. They are a beautiful and noble breed but they shouldn't be treated like any old dog. They're not.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> Something i can sugest is reserching some of your dogs bloodlines if you have papers, very nice to see some pictures and little storys of your dogs family tree.


I had pictures but deleted them because i was about to leave mine is from one of those oh so beloved(HAHA) back yard breeders I'll try to post them again as I think you all have changed my mine. I do understand that the dog fighters have a major part of the history but I just dont whant anything to do with or support anything about the history. To me thats what keeps a great breed down. I will say I have had friends that did this behavior but very little as this was a very sore subject between us.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I had pictures but deleted them because i was about to leave mine is from one of those oh so beloved(HAHA) back yard breeders I'll try to post them again as I think you all have changed my mine. I do understand that the dog fighters have a major part of the history but I just dont whant anything to do with or support anything about the history. To me thats what keeps a great breed down. I will say I have had friends that did this behavior but very little as this was a very sore subject between us.


I would love to see some pictures of your dog 

This breed is so great due to the history of them, i would understand you not wanting to know about the post illegal dogfighters, but pre are just what we have to accept and thank them for wha they have given us today.

:woof:


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> what attracted me to this breed has nothing to do with fighting and it well plain sucks when im looking for info on this breed i find just stuff about fighting and so on and so on what i dont get


I assure you we are anti dogfighting here. After I fostered my first pitbull, I could only find info on fighting and conditioning for fighting anywhere on the internet. thats why we have GoPitbull today. We just have a passion for dogs that just so happen to have this in their history. to know the breed is to know its history. I have to except the fact that dogfighting still exists weather lagally or illegally all over the world. I cant stop it, but I can prove the breed is worthy of future existance


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

I put one of his face shot in the albums could not make it a avitar i guess hes now about 5 mnths and last week or so was 26 pounds i was actually looking for a dogue de bor(how ever you spell it french mastiff) probably fit my life style better but i have alway like pitbulls and when one came up from a friend at work could not pass it up. pluss hes helping me get into shape with long walks and hopefully runs soon


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

redog said:


> I assure you we are anti dogfighting here. After I fostered my first pitbull, I could only find info on fighting and conditioning for fighting anywhere on the internet. thats why we have GoPitbull today.


This is what i was looking for this is the first pitbull I have owned my self and wanted to do the best for him


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

I miss all the good threads when I'm at work. 

Just a couple points I'd like to touch on:

1) I will never deny that my pups are pit bulls. If someone asks me what kind of dog they are, I'll answer them with what breed of dog they are. If the person gives me an ignorant comment (like this actual comment "Oh, wow, they're so nice and friendly and well trained for pit bulls"), then it's a great opportunity to explain to them the bad rap these dogs get. If I said they were some other kind of dog, I'd lose that chance and we'd have one less person educated about how great our breed is. If the person jumps back and walks away or gives me a dirty look -- well, then no amount of education is ever going to change their mind on this breed. They've already got their mind set on what a pit is and they're walking away.

2) :thumbsup::thumbsup: to Miss APBT for staying calm. Some of the replies to you were just this side of being rude and, while I understand that everyone feels passionate about their beliefs, I think this is why the OP mentioned getting flak for making this thread. I've seen it on a few other threads, where people have come across as pretty harsh in their statements/opinionas.


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

gamer said:


> Oh lord seriously? Poor? Do yo know the amount of time and money goes into a dog for a match? Most of the people of today wouldnt have what it takes to get a dog to the top, trust me its a lot more then these show dog people of today put into their dogs. Trust that!
> 
> Ultimate fighters dont have protective gear and they love what they do, some things like to fight be it humans, dogs, elk some just like the fight
> 
> ...


humans... really? of course we do, there are a lot of sick humans. you can't count us, we are the most goofed up unnatural beings on the planet!


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Most forums have members who represent a wide slice of the world. Deciding a place isnt for you because there are a few who feel differently is going to alienate yourself from a lot of learning and personal growth. There are even things to be learned in an environment where many or most disagree with you, if you have the fortitude to absorb the knowledge and perspective given. That's my "Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey" moment.


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## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

IM so sick of hearing that these dogs love to be in the pit and causing harm to themselves and other dogs.

I have 6 neices and nephews, when they was younger they loved trying to stick forks in the outlets, they love jumping in the bed, the loved eating candy and sweets until they got sick. But us being adults, we know whats best of them and we do everything in our power to protect them. Just because a dog is willing to fight to the death, does not mean we should support it and egg it on.

There is no sport to dog fighting, there is no fun to watching a dog get torn up and hurt. If you see any sport to this, then you are sick. You need to be taken out back and shot....that simple


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

i would just like to state that if i came off sounding harsh... it wasn't directed at anyone directly on this site... (cause i hope we don't have and dogfighters on here) of course i understand the history of this dog... and of course the history is what made the dog what it is today. i do not however choose to glorify that history, or pretend that i am pround of where my dog came from. just because its part of history doesn't mean its something to look highly upon. that being said... i absolutely love the way we have been carrying on a decent discussion/debate in a civil manner, that is one of the reasons that i love this site!!


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

^

I feel most of the people on here are mature enough to handle posts like this one in a civil manner.

I've been on many other threads where everyone is going at each others throats.

Yes it has happened here(mostly to me hahaha) But It helps that person grow,and gain more knowledge in the long run.

I don't know what I would have done,had I not found this site. This site has bettered(is that a word?) Bruno and most importantly me,as a dog lover and new pit bull owner.
I have grown so much in my breed knowledge over the past few months(and as a now responsible dog owner),and I have everyone on this site to thank for that.

You didn't give up on me,and I love that about this site.(just tried to rip me a part XD j/k) 
I feel that the OP can really benefit from this site like I did. 
You don't have to agree with what everyone says,but it does make you think,and get a better understanding of where they're coming from,so you don't just jump to conclusions the next time around.(if that makes any sense...Rambling now)


Anyway OP I'm glad you're going to stick around. I'm sure you will benefit in some way.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

j-crash said:


> humans... really? of course we do, there are a lot of sick humans. you can't count us, we are the most goofed up unnatural beings on the planet!


Ok dont count us there are still many species that do


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## gh32 (Dec 22, 2007)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> well if this is the least pro dog fighting forum I just dont know what to say I just never meant to point you out since I've seen alot other than you but what attracted me to this breed has nothing to do with fighting and it well plain sucks when im looking for info on this breed i find just stuff about fighting and so on and so on what i dont get how could this dog be considered that nanny breed if from what ive seen everyone agrees that you should never leave this breed alone whith basicly anything you don want distroyed.


 While you may not like the dog matching in the breed's history,looking into the APBT's history and not finding info about matches would be like looking for info on muscle cars and not hear about drag racing.It just a major part of it. No one said the APBT can't be trusted.Just not with animals. Most are human friendly beyong belief.Just because a dog is DA doesn't mean it can't be the friendliest,nicest dog in the world.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

echs332000 said:


> IM so sick of hearing that these dogs love to be in the pit and causing harm to themselves and other dogs.
> 
> I have 6 neices and nephews, when they was younger they loved trying to stick forks in the outlets, they love jumping in the bed, the loved eating candy and sweets until they got sick. But us being adults, we know whats best of them and we do everything in our power to protect them. Just because a dog is willing to fight to the death, does not mean we should support it and egg it on.
> 
> There is no sport to dog fighting, there is no fun to watching a dog get torn up and hurt. If you see any sport to this, then you are sick. You need to be taken out back and shot....that simple


Don't you understand GAMENESS is what makes these dogs different from any other breed of dog this trait has been bred into these dogs from the very beginning without it their would be no APBT??? As stated before if you can't stomach the idea of a breed of dog being bred for fighting why in the world would you own an APBT? you can't have it both ways it makes no sense. You can't protect a bulldog from fighting other dogs or animals it's what they were born to do and yes they enjoy it!!! Why do you think these dog's are so animal aggressive ??? And please don't tell me because they haven't been socialized properly because that's a crock of sh*t you can't train DA out of this breed because they were bred to be DA from the very beginning even a cur is DA to some extent if you own a bulldog and it doesn't show any signs of DA I would be highly suspicious of what breed of dog you own because 99.9% percent of real Bulldogs are DA even the coldest cur on the block has shown some level of DA !!!! By going against the law of nature with these dog's you are setting them up for disaster. Please if you cannot accept these dog's for what they are don't own them. This is why you have all these dog attacks people trying to save a breed they know nothing about and can't accept the truth about what these dogs were bred to do. Know one is holding a gun to your head to force you to match your dog's BUT how in the world can you hate your dog's history the very core of what made these dogs who they are yet claim to love your dog or the breed ? That to me is very double standard and unrealistic it doesn't even make an ounce of sense. You remove Gameness from the breed you no longer have an APBT and that my friend is a FACT! Preservation is key in any breed how can you preserve the APBT if your not breeding and using them for the purpose in which they were intended for? I personally wouldn't fight my dogs but I am all for preservation. I also accept my dog's history and am not ashamed of where my dog's come from.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

People want the looks but want them to have the heart of a chihuahua its sad sad world for this breed


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## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Don't you understand GAMENESS is what makes these dogs different from any other breed of dog this trait has been bred into these dogs from the very beginning without it their would be no APBT??? As stated before if you can't stomach the idea of a breed of dog being bred for fighting why in the world would you own an APBT? you can't have it both ways it makes no sense. You can't protect a bulldog from fighting other dogs or animals it's what they were born to do and yes they enjoy it!!! Why do you think these dog's are so animal aggressive ??? And please don't tell me because they haven't been socialized properly because that's a crock of sh*t you can't train DA out of this breed because they were bred to be DA from the very beginning even a cur is DA to some extent if you own a bulldog and it doesn't show any signs of DA I would be highly suspicious of what breed of dog you own because 99.9% percent of real Bulldogs are DA even the coldest cur on the block has shown some level of DA !!!! By going against the law of nature with these dog's you are setting them up for disaster. Please if you cannot accept these dog's for what they are don't own them. This is why you have all these dog attacks people trying to save a breed they know nothing about and can't accept the truth about what these dogs were bred to do. Know one is holding a gun to your head to force you to match your dog's BUT how in the world can you hate your dog's history the very core of what made these dogs who they are yet claim to love your dog or the breed ? That to me is very double standard and unrealistic it doesn't even make an ounce of sense. You remove Gameness from the breed you no longer have an APBT and that my friend is a FACT! Preservation is key in any breed how can you preserve the APBT if your not breeding and using them for the purpose in which they were intended for? I personally wouldn't fight my dogs but I am all for preservation. I also accept my dog's history and am not ashamed of where my dog's come from.


put the brakes on for a second.

So your saying i dont deserve to have my dog because i dont support dog fighting? HA HA. There is a difference between respecting the past and showing a interest and apreaciation(sp? for what made or dogs become what they are, and still practicing something that is cruel and very inhumane.

I guess im a human being. I cant see myself putting something i love and care about with all my heart in harms way just to make some money or boost my ego. the rewards are just not great enough for me. If you feel comfortable putting the dog that your cherish and love into a pit with another dog that has all intentions of killing your dog, then you are a sociopath(sp?)


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## Zoes mama (Oct 11, 2010)

New member here and I just want to throw my 2 cents in. Im against it. I just cannot comprehend why anybody would put their dogs life and well-being into jeopardy. I love my dog and wouldn't want to watch her be harmed or be the cause of harm to another living creature. I will admit I am a bit ignorant to the breeds history and refused to have one for many years because of all the horror stories that abound. Now I can only say this, my girl is loyal, sweet and exuberant. I just couldn't live with myself if she was hurt or killed. To each their own I suppose but for me its senseless and wrong. May all of you have a great day whatever your position on this is.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> well if this is the least pro dog fighting forum I just dont know what to say I just never meant to point you out since I've seen alot other than you but what attracted me to this breed has nothing to do with fighting and it well plain sucks when im looking for info on this breed i find just stuff about fighting and so on and so on what i dont get how could this dog be considered that nanny breed if from what ive seen *everyone agrees that you should never leave this breed alone whith basicly anything you don want distroyed*.


I think its safe for me to say that most everyone here agrees that an APBT or any pit bull type dog should never be left alone with


other dogs


children
I have a very sweet dog with a great temperament; however, he is very DA but I think its a small price to pay for having an excellent dog. He is fabulous with my son and endures more from my 2 yr old than a Golden Retriever, Lab, or any other breed of dog would and I'd put money on that. There is no other type of dog I would have in my home and around my son except for a pit bull type dog.

That being said, I don't leave my son and my dog alone together because that is irresponsible parenting. I don't leave my son alone with my brother's Golden Retriever or any other breed of dog either. Children can be annoying to most dogs and if you aren't there to intervene things happen and children get bit. I am extremely confident I could leave my son and my dog alone, but I don't do it. The reason they are called the Nanny dog is because they are so good with children due to their high pain tolerance and desire to please their human owners. You must understand the difference between HA and DA. They are two completely different things and in my opinion a dog of any breed should not be faulted for DA. However, unwarranted HA should not be tolerated and isn't in my household.

Other than that I leave my dog alone in the house when I'm not home and he doesn't destroy anything. Yes, many dogs do destroy things when left alone like shoes, furniture etc but that can happen with any breed of dog and is usually a result of boredom thus the reason many people crate their dogs when not home.

Just remember history is what it is, you don't have to have to like it but you should educate yourself about it. After all, it is the history of the APBT that gave you your beloved dog you own today, correct?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

echs332000 said:


> put the brakes on for a second.
> 
> So your saying i dont deserve to have my dog because i dont support dog fighting? HA HA. There is a difference between respecting the past and showing a interest and apreaciation(sp? for what made or dogs become what they are, and still practicing something that is cruel and very inhumane.
> 
> I guess im a human being. I cant see myself putting something i love and care about with all my heart in harms way just to make some money or boost my ego. the rewards are just not great enough for me. If you feel comfortable putting the dog that your cherish and love into a pit with another dog that has all intentions of killing your dog, then you are a sociopath(sp?)


I am saying you watch way too much TV and the media hype has gotten to you and your ideals of the sport historically all together are all backwards and wrong.

Did you know in other parts of the world where dog fighting is still legal they have vet's on site to care for the dogs during and after a match? Did you know that dog men will pick their dogs up and walk away during a match cut their looses when they see that their dog can no longer continue on they don't just allow their dogs to die that is the last thing they want to do is loose a good dog ? Did you know that there are 2 different types of dog men there are those who spent their entire lives preserving the breed, who care deeply for these dogs providing excellent care before and after a match their love for the sport is like the love for any other sport. They don't do all those horrific things you see on TV those are the thugs no good for nothing idiots who fight dogs to be cool and to boost their ego's they don't give a damn about the breed or preserving it. They don't care for their dogs at all. There is a right and wrong way to match a dog believe it or not. I unlike you took the time to learn more about the sport and the HISTORY of it before I placed my own judgements. They used to refer to dogfighting as a gentlemen's sport. Bulldog's are not forced to fight those that even make it to the box have shown gameness they fight of their own free will because they are genetically inclined to do so. So you see why I would never allow one of my dog's to be fought I also have taken the time to learn as much as I can about the breed and their history nor am I ashamed of what they are and where they stem from. I understand that without preservation I wouldn't have my dogs. I also know that the average person does not understand these dogs they own them and don't have a clue about what it takes to properly contain them and care for them as a result we have a crisis situation and responsible owner's are paying the price for the folks who live in a fantasy world when it comes to these dogs. You don't have to agree with me but this is a forum where people come to agree to disagree and learn from others. Call me what you will but I will always be honest with myself about what I own and am PROUD of my dogs history!!!!


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

gamer said:


> People want the looks but want them to have the heart of a chihuahua its sad sad world for this breed


You dont want a big dog with my chiwawas attitude he has 10 times more prey drive and energy than Bernie lol he is a little ball of fire :rofl:


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

bahamutt99 said:


> Deciding a place isnt for you because there are a few who feel differently is going to alienate yourself from a lot of learning and personal growth. QUOTE]
> 
> On many subject I have no problem hearing different points of view this is not a subject I care to hear apposing views about. This is something that I will never agree with and do not with to be associated with hence my question about this site. I understand everyone has a opinion but it is my choice not to be involved with these actions. Again I had no intention of debating df. This was not what my op was about either


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Xiahko said:


> ^
> 
> I don't know what I would have done,had I not found this site. This site has bettered(is that a word?) Bruno and most importantly me,as a dog lover and new pit bull owner.
> I have grown so much in my breed knowledge over the past few months(and as a now responsible dog owner),and I have everyone on this site to thank for that.
> ...


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

jmejiaa said:


> Morality is also man created and culture instilled... Just playing devil's advocate i guess...


this was brought into th fracas on the first page.
I,being the hater of wrong,didn't really wade into this because I had this thought lurking in the back of my head.Moral is a word that folks assimilate with taught or learned behavior.the precept of it's value is embedded in right and wrong,yet the metaethical is rooted in experience for something before it can virtously be argued.
In order to be justified in believing something and therefore in order to know it, one must have in mind the factors that reasonably ground one's right to believe it. The strongest internalist theories demand that these factors be immediately in mind, whereas the milder internalist theories demand only that they be available upon reflection. This seems to imply that one must possess (without any need for further experience or research) the grounds of good answers to all kinds of skeptics in order to be justified in believing something. However, it perhaps does not imply that one can recognize all of those reasons as such or that one can effectively articulate them.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Just because a behavior is learned or culture in no way necessitate it being just. there are many examples of very bad behavior in the past that is not good but it was excepted at the times. Morality is a man made thing but we use it to to keep us together and work in that society.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> Just because a behavior is learned or culture in no way necessitate it being just. there are many examples of very bad behavior in the past that is not good but it was excepted at the times. Morality is a man made thing but we use it to to keep us together and work in that society.


your not right about moral.
it is the innate sense of right and wrong.we are born with the moral code.
the only people who aren't are those who suffer from some sort of psychosis that interupts the ability to sense such behavior.
were you to be right,then their would be the comparison of dogmen,true dogmen to Jeffrey Dahmer,john Wayne Gacy,Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler.
you may think moral,and mean value.
A persons values are whats in question when it comes to the realm of gaming.
and I'll tell you from personal experience.
I no longer,and will never again game A dog,or allow any dog to fight.
based on the values that have OVERTAKEN the sport I find it loathesome and lacking.it is A matter of moral terputude.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

To the op I hope that you stick around and learn alot from this great site. WE DO NOT PROMOTE DOG FIGHTING. We do talk about the history of this breed you have to understand that before you can really understand your dog.

yes most APBT are DA that is a given but that doesn't mean that you cannot have these dogs with other animals that is where training and socializing your dog comes into play.

I would never dream of pitting Vendetta against another pitbull that is so wrong in my book but I do understand that she would like to rip apart another dog so I take precaution to make sure that does NOT happen.

We also have to rember that we have people from all over the world on this site( mainly because of the wealth of knowlegde) so there will always be different opinion and different laws about dog fighting. *This site will never condone dog fighting*. We are here for the betterment of the breed and to help new comers raise a dog that they are proud of.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Definition of MORAL
1a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent> 
2: probable though not proved : virtual <a moral certainty> 
3: perceptual or psychological rather than tangible or practical in nature or effect <a moral victory> <moral support> 
Synonym Discussion of MORAL
moral, ethical, virtuous, righteous, noble mean conforming to a standard of what is right and good. moral implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong <the basic moral values of a community>. ethical may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity <committed to the highest ethical principles>. virtuous implies moral excellence in character <not a religious person, but virtuous nevertheless>. righteous stresses guiltlessness or blamelessness and often suggests the sanctimonious <wished to be righteous before God and the world>. noble implies moral eminence and freedom from anything petty, mean, or dubious in conduct and character <had the noblest of reasons for seeking office>.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

killers learned that killing is not wrong. they learn that it is right to kill certian individuals


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I have to disagree with you William not everyone is born with a moral code already implanted in their pysche(sp?). You could have two very moral parents adn have a child that can not tell right from wrong. You could also have two very immoral parents and that child will grow up very moral. 

But really society dictates what is moral and what is not. As times change so does a person perception of morality.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

*Golden Rule:*
*Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.*


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Not all of us are christians. Especially when you consider that over half the world doesn't believe in catholicism. This rule would not apply.

I happen to go back and forth between pagen and atheism. I do have a very strong moral compass so religion didn't play apart in making me what I am.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

*It's a joke. Chill out!

The golden rule doesn't stem from 1 specific relgion.. Don't you watch mel brooks, films?

Not all of us are atheists - which IMO is a religion... I don't appreciate your disrespect toward Christianity & getting defensive over nothing!*


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I really think you need to take that chill pill you just prescribed for me. I didn't get defensive at all I merely pointed out that the golden rule is a christian bases belief. It comes from the bible that is christanity. 


No I did't watch Mel Brooks as Moses why would i I just stated that I'm atheist and no it is not a religion.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

MY MIKADO said:


> I really think you need to take that chill pill you just prescribed for me. I didn't get defensive at all I merely pointed out that the golden rule is a christian bases belief. It comes from the bible that is christanity.
> 
> No I did't watch Mel Brooks as Moses why would i I just stated that I'm atheist and no it is not a religion.


Because you jump down my throat instantaneously, ASSUMING I'm christian... It just comes off wrong, like you're trying to put a negative connotation on me or Christians... And if I am, so what - that's my personal belief, I shouldn't be made to feel awkward or out numbered for my belief. I wouldn't jump on you & I don't - not once have I stated my personal beliefs. But I respect that you happen to believe in Paegen, cool. I studied Wicca for a long time...

Mel Brooks is a comedian, who happens to be Jewish...

It's a piece out of one of his movies called, History of the World, Part I. It's a cult classic, along with other movies... His most recent is 'The Producers' with Nathan Lane & Matthew Broderick..

It's was a joke pointing out morals... I like the last part of the 15 / 10 commandments part. IMO it's funny & most of the other users on here have a decent sense of humor too


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> Definition of MORAL
> 1a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : *conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment *<a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>
> 2: probable though not proved : virtual <a moral certainty>
> 3: *perceptual or psychological rather than tangible or practical in nature or effect <a moral victory> <moral support> *Synonym Discussion of MORAL
> *moral, ethical, virtuous, righteous, noble mean conforming to a standard of what is right and good.[*COLOR="blue"] moral implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong <the basic moral values of a community>. [/COLOR]ethical may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity <committed to the highest ethical principles>. virtuous implies moral excellence in character <not a religious person, but virtuous nevertheless>. righteous stresses guiltlessness or blamelessness and often suggests the sanctimonious <wished to be righteous before God and the world>. noble implies moral eminence and freedom from anything petty, mean, or dubious in conduct and character <had the noblest of reasons for seeking office>.


thanks for bringing the dictionary.I was just going off of learning and memory.
and I highlighted the points of the psychosis of moral.
it is the virtuous or of right and good.what your implication is is that theirs not any good in someone inless they learn it to be applied to become moral.
I was born with moral or rightness.I transpose them to specific beliefs when I am raised within A certain culture or sect.
to think that we aren't born with rightness or fairness already instilled?
that would mean that once I started fighting dogs you could never change my mind.
and guess what? my mind is changed.
wanna know how changed?when i lived in costa rica some israelis wanted to pay me the big bucks to purchase and handle game dogs for them.
now,were I to be held and applied to your precept of moral,my answer would have been yes.
now,seeings that my internal thought and emotion generator is attached to my born and human instinct to be of felt and applied emotion I was able to negotiate beyond the greed factor,also pre determined by another on this thread,and make A sensible decision based on my true moral intuition and say no.
again thanks for bringing the dictionary.it put the words on the page I missed.touche.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

MY MIKADO said:


> I have to disagree with you William not everyone is born with a moral code already implanted in their pysche(sp?). You could have two very moral parents adn have a child that can not tell right from wrong. You could also have two very immoral parents and that child will grow up very moral.
> 
> But really society dictates what is moral and what is not. As times change so does a person perception of morality.


apparently you missed the point,about those without the ability to feel or have any sensitivity to anything.theirs deffinately those like that.
yet what is the percentage of folks that are born this way?
the base of morality is the ability to sense right or wrong.
and yes that changes for people.
I was born with a very sensitive side.
yet being born in A time that put me in a severely demented element,I did change,or actually gave up on the code of moral rightness.
then being the product of A street and drug environment,I justified dealing,using,and harming and maiming people who didn't pay their freight to those whom fronted them product.I collected by any means necessary.
thats not the feeling I was born with,the moral rightness.
it was not until I got clean,locked up and started working on A recovery program that I was able to RETURN to something.
"something" was there all along.I felt the crush to that inner self.when I pulled the trigger,when I beat someone down,when I waged war with my opponents in the ring.I went beyond A line,that line that even though I was on top I felt like sh!t.because I was going against A true belief.
since I've been clean I've been ripped off as a housing contractor.by one guy to the tune of $22,000.had I not been given a reprieve from addiction and that lifestyle,that man may not have grown to see his kids graduate.
so,is their not some merit to that innate attachment to the pre-disposed good that we are born with?
were their not,then I would not have the foundation to revert,divert,forgive and gain compassion.
and to this thread,I'm compassionate about the welfare of the pit,and all dogs and all living things.
I don't challenge people in society,I do get rankled when they challenge me.it's that man thing and not necessarily ego.when someone gets away with pushing me then they push someone else.theirs alot of folks that prtey and make people victims.I will,as to my moral code be the guy that gets between someone less able and help them or defend them.
I was that way as a kid.and fortunately have found my way back to being that way.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

correct me if I'm wrong were you not the one that said the reson you dont fight is the way the fighting is handle now. so you still dont find it wrong to fight only the new ruiles or lack of rules. might have been a differnt poster.
But know you are not born moral because then everyone would have the same basic moral. and if you compare different cultures aroung the world you will see different morals. Here we dont take part in canibleism(not sure about spelling) but im many culture this was completely moral.

I brought the definition because I didnt want to argue i my point of view if the definition clearly stated otherwise


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

william williamson said:


> the base of morality is the ability to sense right or wrong.
> QUOTE]
> 
> you said it the base of morality but not morality itself. because what is right or wrong may be differnt to different people but as a society we decide collecdtivly if something is moral


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> correct me if I'm wrong were you not the one that said the reson you dont fight is the way the fighting is handle now. so you still dont find it wrong to fight only the new ruiles or lack of rules. might have been a differnt poster.
> But know you are not born moral because then everyone would have the same basic moral. and if you compare different cultures aroung the world you will see different morals. Here we dont take part in canibleism(not sure about spelling) but im many culture this was completely moral.
> 
> I brought the definition because I didnt want to argue i my point of view if the definition clearly stated otherwise


it clearly states otherwise when you pick and choose the words you assimilate to,or use to create or defend a point.
theirs alot about gaming.not just the legal aspect or the handling.theirs some guys that still old school dog fighting.I just,today do not believe in it like I did at one time.legal and immoral,gee,there's an extension of that word,applied to the concept of regaining morality 
theirs truly A de-sensitizing factor to gaming dogs.
as I stated in my above post,it's A return trip for me to my pre-disposed moral instinct.
I wouldn't game a dog,and it's becoming more about the dog as a dog and no longer whether or not I've got A game dog.
my present pit,had this dog shown up 20 odd years ago,I'd put her to the test.she's so much by nature what we looked for in a dog.
also,I cleared it up,and made it apparent,as per what I was taight,some people,very few by statistic are born with zero sinsitivity or awareness to rightness, virtue or morals.so much so that they too cannot develop ethical or rational thought.
immoral is a depravity.which takes having morals to be able to make immoral, bad, or evil.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> william williamson said:
> 
> 
> > the base of morality is the ability to sense right or wrong.
> ...


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Ya Ithink we might be splitting hairs now but as far as my arguement went it has nothing to do with df just the word moral and if it was learned or instincts. as for df I have no need to argue because I know I want changesw minds and mine certianly wont change either. I enjoy learning about religion and the mind and so enen though I dont consider myself religious. 

If you read those books I give you credit I've always want to just never realy do.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

I do enjoy hearing the differnt interpertations on life. where differnt people come from.but maybe thats best suited in another forum. .:cheers:


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Nice to see this isn't ending as a 'closed' forum.

Glad to see others come to an understanding of another


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> Ya Ithink we might be splitting hairs now but as far as my arguement went it has nothing to do with df just the word moral and if it was learned or instincts. as for df *I have no need to argue because I know I want changesw minds* and mine certianly wont change either. I enjoy learning about religion and the mind and so enen though I dont consider myself religious.
> 
> If you read those books I give you credit I've always want to just never realy do.


don't think like this,please.it's the (your previous word,hehe)collective thinking,and the points of your rational and moral thinking that is the catalyst that prevades the psyche of others.
A few years ago,when initially I joined this site,I stepped away. I was truly unsettled with the whole DF idea.yet I snuck in and out several times.watched,listened and observed all that was going on around me.
had it not been for others tennacity to the IMMORALLITY,I'd probably not have made the hurdle to my true feelings and do now find gaming loathesome.
I see the dogs for mor what you and others see them than what I saw with my rose colored glasses.
I am not religous,in the sense some view religion.yet the lessons and stories of these great books,setting aside the Deity of God as A single source,
I say higher power,and I hope we've all got something.
it was what brought me from my fog,I repeat this to myself often so as not to forget "out of the shadow,into the light grow up my son fear not the night".
it's the first line to A poem I'm writing.I just have to find the emotion to finish.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

william williamson said:


> "out of the shadow,into the light grow up my son fear not the night".
> QUOTE] :clap: nice
> 
> That is true. Its just had when nothing is ever black and white and there are never perfect answers.
> ...


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> william williamson said:
> 
> 
> > "out of the shadow,into the light grow up my son fear not the night".
> ...


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

ya I dont have much thought on catagories special since I tend to have conflickting ideas alot.

I can only imagine how ugly it can get. But i guess when people have very deep and personal thoughts or very little info or just want to be right it always gets ugly. ends up being im right your wrong f you f me and so on.

And ya only through understanding can we make decisions on things so debate is always gopod when done in good way.


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## Skank (Feb 11, 2010)

How can all of debate this ? honestly i will go out on a limb and say 98 percent of yall are going off of something you got of google I DONT FIGHT MY DOG AND DO NOT SUPPORT dog fighting what pisses me is the same groups that should be out stopping dog fight are to bizzy tring to stop hog hunting with and raiding ppl just cause they have pitbulls i look at this way if it wasnt for dogmen i wouldnt have my dogs and you wouldn't have yours so get over it and go do something for this breed not giving the ASPCA ,HSUS ,OR PETA something else to use in court


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## DeeboLove (May 28, 2010)

I would never want my dog or any other animal to be put in a potentially harmful situation because a human put them there. But I do understand the history and how the breed came to be. Now my question is, most of us are against dog fighting, what is going to happen to the breed years down the line when what they were bred to do is now bred out of them due to laws and peoples "morals"?


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Dogfighting is never going to stop. Imagine if it did. we would just have Amstaffs, anything with no gamedogs in its 4gen is an amstaff to me also. But weve already covered all of this on another thread.
People can complain all they like, it will never die out.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

That's right Dogfighting will never end there will always be dog men risking their freedom to preserve these dogs in their truest form.


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

william williamson said:


> your not right about moral.
> it is the innate sense of right and wrong.we are born with the moral code.
> the only people who aren't are those who suffer from some sort of psychosis that interupts the ability to sense such behavior.
> were you to be right,then their would be the comparison of dogmen,true dogmen to Jeffrey Dahmer,john Wayne Gacy,Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler.
> ...


there you go!! i have been reading all of these posts and cannot believe that people think that morals are a cultural taught thing... if you've got a brain, and you use logic, morals NOT values should come naturally... unless of course you are some type of sociopath/psychopath as stated above.

... and i am by no means putting that label on anyone on this site!


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

j-crash said:


> there you go!! i have been reading all of these posts and cannot believe that people think that morals are a cultural taught thing... if you've got a brain, and you use logic, morals NOT values should come naturally... *unless of course you are some type of sociopath/psychopath* as stated above.
> 
> ... and i am by no means putting that label on anyone on this site!


Lot's of human beings with brains doing things that are morally wrong IMO. Different cultural have morals...

Why am I debating, you contradicted yourself with the statement in bold.


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

MY MIKADO said:


> I really think you need to take that chill pill you just prescribed for me. I didn't get defensive at all I merely pointed out that the golden rule is a christian bases belief. It comes from the bible that is christanity.
> 
> No I did't watch Mel Brooks as Moses why would i I just stated that I'm atheist and no it is not a religion.


incorrect... just because it is in the bible does not mean that it is the only place that the idea is located. just about any religion you can think of includes the basic idea of "the golden rule."


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Morals are instilled ... Values are taught and upheld ... Your conscious speaks to you before making the choice to do what's right or wrong adults know the difference between the two. Unless of course you are a psychopath which does not have a conscious


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

jmejiaa said:


> Lot's of human beings with brains doing things that are morally wrong IMO. Different cultural have morals...
> 
> Why am I debating, you contradicted yourself with the statement in bold.


no it has nothing to do with different cultures and different morals... it has to do with the fact that someone knows it is wrong and they do it anyways.

... and where is the contradiction, you either have morals or you dont' (physcopath) whether you choose to follow them is a completely different thing.


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

j-crash said:


> no it has nothing to do with different cultures and different morals... it has to do with the fact that someone knows it is wrong and they do it anyways.
> 
> ... and where is the contradiction, you either have morals or you dont' (physcopath) whether you choose to follow them is a completely different thing.


It's exactly what we are discussing.

I think it's morally wrong to fight dogs, other people don't. Obviously other people don't.

You said it yourself, you either have moral's or you don't.. So it's not something anyone with a brain is born with, it's something they learn based on personal experiences in life. Some people think it's morally wrong to eat meat, I don't...You don't get a set of morals when you are born, you pick and choose em based on what you know..

Also, wrong and right is subjective.. What you consider wrong can be completely right in someone else's mind.. Or is something wrong just because the law or a book says so? Who's law is right? Who's book is right?


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## Lvis (Mar 4, 2010)

i think you might have things confused, i dont support dog fighting BUT i do respect the dogs history... 2 different things

these dogs are loyal super athletes and that could have never been the case if it wasnt for the dogs past


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

jmejiaa said:


> It's exactly what we are discussing.
> 
> I think it's morally wrong to fight dogs, other people don't. Obviously other people don't.
> 
> ...


looks like were just aren't gonna agree on this... i too think it is morally wrong to fight dogs but i would disagree with that some other people don't i believe that people that fight dogs know its wrong, but choose to do it anyways, just like people that steal, kill, etc... unless they somehow lack ANY understanding of right and wrong (conscious...sp?) which goes back again to psychopathic person.

its not about picking and choosing morals, its about a persons values (which is something you learn)


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

j-crash said:


> looks like were just aren't gonna agree on this... i too think it is morally wrong to fight dogs but i would disagree with that some other people don't i believe that people that fight dogs know its wrong, but choose to do it anyways, just like people that steal, kill, etc... unless they somehow lack ANY understanding of right and wrong (conscious...sp?) which goes back again to psychopathic person.
> 
> its not about picking and choosing morals, its about a persons values (which is something you learn)


hehe... You never agree on these topics on the internet.... I understand where you are coming from..

:cheers:


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> correct me if I'm wrong were you not the one that said the reson you dont fight is the way the fighting is handle now. so you still dont find it wrong to fight only the new ruiles or lack of rules. might have been a differnt poster.
> But know you are not born moral because then everyone would have the same basic moral. and if you compare different cultures aroung the world you will see different morals. Here we dont take part in canibleism(not sure about spelling) but im many culture this was completely moral.
> 
> I brought the definition because I didnt want to argue i my point of view if the definition clearly stated otherwise


Look have you seen a contract match? Have you even read the rules? Have you talked to a dogman/woman? Have you seen how they care for their dogs? If not you can not fully give an opinion on something without knowing the facts. Please stay off HSUS, PETA and DJ's sites they are riddled with half truths and straight up lies.



Skank said:


> How can all of debate this ? honestly i will go out on a limb and say 98 percent of yall are going off of something you got of google I DONT FIGHT MY DOG AND DO NOT SUPPORT dog fighting what pisses me is the same groups that should be out stopping dog fight are to bizzy tring to stop hog hunting with and raiding ppl just cause they have pitbulls i look at this way if it wasnt for dogmen i wouldnt have my dogs and you wouldn't have yours so get over it and go do something for this breed not giving the ASPCA ,HSUS ,OR PETA something else to use in court


Most people who spew the anti fighting stuff are just brain washed peons of the HSUS, PETA etc they dont even educate themselves on both sides.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

gamer said:


> Please stay off HSUS, PETA and DJ's sites they are riddled with half truths and straight up lies.


Like bait dogs :hammer:


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

jmejiaa said:


> hehe... You never agree on these topics on the internet.... I understand where you are coming from..
> 
> :cheers:


i know 
its hard, i feel like i end up in getting into "arguments" on message boards when they would be perfectly normal discussions face to face.

:cheers:


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

gamer said:


> Look have you seen a contract match? Have you even read the rules? Have you talked to a dogman/woman? Have you seen how they care for their dogs? If not you can not fully give an opinion on something without knowing the facts. Please stay off HSUS, PETA and DJ's sites they are riddled with half truths and straight up lies.
> 
> Most people who spew the anti fighting stuff are just brain washed peons of the HSUS, PETA etc they dont even educate themselves on both sides.


i'm with you on that... and i have argued the same things many times. the problem is that no matter how well they are cared for before/during/after, its still a bloodsport, and i believe this is why most people have an objection to it.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Ok, I've not honestly read every post in this thread, but I can see that this is a dead-end discussion. Obviously this discussion is just going around in circles at this point. Nobody is going to agree with everything everyone else says/posts, so I will be closing this thread when I'm done typing this post. Thank you everyone for an interesting debate, but when we get to the point where we're calling names and demeaning others on the board, it's time to end the discussion. Thank you for everyone's participation.


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