# caragankennel



## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

CARAGAN KENNEL Pit Bulls specializing in Red Nose & Black American Pit Bull Terrier breeders

good kennel?


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## B.Mamba (Jan 20, 2010)

I was looking at there site yesterday. Them seem okay. but hell. Who really knows?


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

B.Mamba said:


> I was looking at there site yesterday. Them seem okay. but hell. Who really knows?


true true, I just want a good dog. well bred. I may or maynot even do confermation I may just want a petbull. I really don't care bout papers or peds but I want to make sure that if he comes with papers they arent hung


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## B.Mamba (Jan 20, 2010)

Keep looking. you'll find the right one sooner or later.


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

yes they are goo. they are on this board too.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I own Caragan dogs and she is a good friend of mine so I can personally vouch for her and her kennel. 
She just had a breeding between Hot Rod Lincon and Rece (she is one of my favorite bitches) and that litter will be due in Feb and I am sending Justice to be bred to Magnum at the end of this month and they will be due in April.

She has great dogs and if you are looking for a pet not a show dog she gets a few of those each litter. Her dogs do very well in the ADBA and UKC. She is also a conformation judge for the ADBA and is very knowledgeable in structure and is my mentor in my breeding program. We have different styles dogs but still she helps me with whelping and breeding and I train her dogs 

I have had at least 9 Caragan dogs come through my house to train and then I also own a few. They are great for a newbie because her dogs mostly do not have high DA and are easy to keep with other dogs.

These the ones I have owned

Fury was my first and she was a great dog but not happy in a kennel environment so we sold her to a family in FL and she is living the good life as an only dog.
She is out of Trina and Hitman









Ch Justice is my diva of the house









Crush she is my baby she is doing great and I am looking for forward to putting some Obed titles on her this year.


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## B.Mamba (Jan 20, 2010)

Well Riley, you got your background check on the breeder.The breeder seem's awsome!


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

I have had the pleasure of meeting a few of her dogs in person.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I've looked at this kennel many times, they seem great. Gorgeous well built dogs comin outta there.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> I own Caragan dogs and she is a good friend of mine so I can personally vouch for her and her kennel.
> She just had a breeding between Hot Rod Lincon and Rece (she is one of my favorite bitches) and that litter will be due in Feb and I am sending Justice to be bred to Magnum at the end of this month and they will be due in April.
> 
> She has great dogs and if you are looking for a pet not a show dog she gets a few of those each litter. Her dogs do very well in the ADBA and UKC. She is also a conformation judge for the ADBA and is very knowledgeable in structure and is my mentor in my breeding program. We have different styles dogs but still she helps me with whelping and breeding and I train her dogs
> ...


THOSE DOGS ARE BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! she breeds some great looking dogs so I am hoping to get one as soon as there is another breeding.<3

thanks for the info!

I like the none da idea aswell.

I'd love to get a male from Trina
http://www.caragankennel.com/females.html

she is drop dead


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I'm going to get some tomatoes thrown at me for this one but the opinion was asked, so I will answer with truth.

The good: Cheryl breeds some nice standard dogs. Correct, able to win in both registries. That is impressive. I've got Caragan blood behind my dogs from Magnum. If Cheryl's dogs are anything like what I've seen in the descendants, then they have the ability to both work and show.

The bad: At present, it appears that she no longer titles and health tests, at least not on every litter. The current litter out of Lincoln and Trina has nothing in the way of titles or health-testing as can be ascertained by looking at the Caragan website and the OFA database. She breeds a dog with a known thyroid problem, which can be genetically passed on to the offspring.

So... It all depends on what is important to you. I wouldn't pay for a dog out of a litter with no accomplishments or health testing on the parents, especially when I know the lines in question here are not problem-free and neither is the geographic area short on shows. Walk the walk if you're going to talk the talk.

ETA: Lar-San dogs are NOT non-DA. Don't be fooled.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

ouch. truth hurts.


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## tablerock (Oct 15, 2009)

Truth does hurt, but if you are looking for a beautiful animal, and pay a price, you can certainly know you are getting it with Cheryl.

As with Lisa, she is a good friend of mine as well...I have a dog off her Magnum/Summer breeding from 10 years ago...one hell of a dog. You can see him here: Welcome to Tablerock APBTs and Harnesses!

- Sara


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

I know Cheryl is always happy to answer questions about her dogs if you give her a shout.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Sara, I do not disagree with you that the dogs in question are beautiful and have lots of potential. There are plenty of dogs out of her program that have gone on to do very well when the owners don't drop the ball. The genetic contribution of Magnum in my own dogs is undeniable, and I like many of the dogs descended from Caragan dogs.

But to debate the point of beauty, a person can get a beautiful rescue. If one were going to go to a breeder to buy a dog, pay a high fee, subject themselves to a co-own, there is a reasonable expectation that the breeder should be doing everything in their power to make it a top-notch breeding. We always hear the argument that you're helping the breeder recoup the cost of all the work that went into the parents. If the dogs producing that litter have never been shown, have not had that expensive health-testing done, have not been toted around to weight pulls, what exactly are you paying for?

I should add that it is not strictly price that I dispute. I am simply saying that for the effort one goes through to get a dog from a reputable breeder, there should be more involved than a name and beautiful pictures. Looking at the ped on your Orion boy, you see plenty of CH, GRCH, DNA, and there might even be an OFA or two, but as you said that ped is also 10 years old. Compare that to the current breeding. At what point does a breeder get to rest on their laurels but continue breeding? I ask that of any breeder, and this is not the first I've pondered.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Don't Co-own ---my advice free of charge


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## damageplan (Nov 20, 2009)

great dogs , good people !!


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

Yes, she has very beautiful dogs, that comform to the standard. She also has many, many years into the breed. They look like they could really do anything you wanted, work, show, and family dogs. The only thing I can say bad, is I am too cheap to pay over $1200 for any pup, but that is me.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

many people have dogs that conform to standards that dont have "bully" prices. we see threads on here all the time that b*tch about prices of bullys w/o health testing and blah blah blah but yet this is an apbt that costs the same price as the bullies with no health testing nor titles! how about making a thread for this.....dont see it happening.


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## Triniboy18 (Mar 22, 2009)

bahamutt99 said:


> I'm going to get some tomatoes thrown at me for this one but the opinion was asked, so I will answer with truth.
> 
> The good: Cheryl breeds some nice standard dogs. Correct, able to win in both registries. That is impressive. I've got Caragan blood behind my dogs from Magnum. If Cheryl's dogs are anything like what I've seen in the descendants, then they have the ability to both work and show.
> 
> ...


Noon question non-DA meaning?


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Triniboy18 said:


> Noon question non-DA meaning?


Non-DA means that they are Not Dog Aggressive. What Baha was saying that there are some Dog Aggressive dogs within the bloodline.


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## shadowwolf (Dec 5, 2008)

I'll stay out of the health testing debate on this subject and I'll happily mention that both of my two will be undergoing their OFA/PennHip health testing as it becomes pertinent.

That being said, I will say that I'm very happy with both of my dogs - though one is only partially from her. Incredibly outgoing and eager to please. Hard workers. Easy to train. They are typically good with other housemates, but if it's a strange dog, there is quite a bit of dog/dog aggression - typically toward the same sex.

My advise to the OP, talk to the breeder and get your questions answered. If that breeder satisfies your desires in a dog, then by all means, get that dog. Research is always the key, regardless of which breeder one chooses.

Ryker (*ADBA/AADR-pointed UWPCH CH 'PR' Friefly CRGN Tell Me No Lies DNA-VIP CGC OFAca*) - 3 years old @ 48lbs.




























Ryker at the MWWP Snow Pull on January 17, 2010.





And Lyric (*ADBA/AADR/UKC-pointed Caragan's Velvet Revolver CGC*) - 2 years @ 35lbs


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

shadowwolf said:


> I'll stay out of the health testing debate on this subject and I'll happily mention that both of my two will be undergoing their OFA/PennHip health testing as it becomes pertinent.
> 
> That being said, I will say that I'm very happy with both of my dogs - though one is only partially from her. Incredibly outgoing and eager to please. Hard workers. Easy to train. They are typically good with other housemates, but if it's a strange dog, there is quite a bit of dog/dog aggression - typically toward the same sex.
> 
> ...


ooooo your dogs are beautiful! ive always liked caragan dogs, but i am not ready to pay that much for a dog. perhaps in the future!


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## shadowwolf (Dec 5, 2008)

meganc66 said:


> ooooo your dogs are beautiful! ive always liked caragan dogs, but i am not ready to pay that much for a dog. perhaps in the future!


Actually, a lot of breeders put a large price tag on the site to scare off potential idiots. This is why I always recommend speaking with the breeder if one is truly interested in their dogs.


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

Very true, touche (i dunno if i spelled that right haha!). i never really thought of that, but then again i'm more of a take it how i see it kinda girl lmao. if it says 1500 then thats what i figure i'll pay for it. ah well, the future is brighter for me  lmao


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

I would be willing to pay 5,000 for a good dog.
I want a none co-owned dog however which kinda sucks because really, I want an all around potential show dog, and puller and after a good short run I'd love to retire him to the couch for a life of love and his ---'s being removed. LOL!!
I have NO intention to stud or breed I want a show dog and a fun companion I can compete in serious compititions. And I love her dogs. those are myideal image of what a true apbt looks like. I have never seen any so...nicely bred (My opinion)

I may just deal with co-owning because i really want a pup in the future.


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## shadowwolf (Dec 5, 2008)

RileyRoo said:


> I would be willing to pay 5,000 for a good dog.
> I want a none co-owned dog however which kinda sucks because really, I want an all around potential show dog, and puller and after a good short run I'd love to retire him to the couch for a life of love and his ---'s being removed. LOL!!
> I have NO intention to stud or breed I want a show dog and a fun companion I can compete in serious compititions. And I love her dogs. those are myideal image of what a true apbt looks like. I have never seen any so...nicely bred (My opinion)
> 
> I may just deal with co-owning because i really want a pup in the future.


Depending on who you talk to, co-owns are a blessing or the devil. It's all in how the contract benefits both the breeder of the dog AND the owner of the dog who'll be scooping poo, feeding, caring and generally maintaining the well-being of the dog. All of this should be discussed with a breeder before engaging in a contract.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Truly nothing wrong with a co-own in my eyes, as long as the buyer and breeder are on the same page and the contract protects both parties. To me, a breeder who doesn't provide a co-own contract is saying "here's your pup, ill have nothing to do with you now". I know that's an extreme statement but most people are intimidated by the thought of the terms, which normally are not unfair. 

Caragan dogs are nice, IMO, and people set the price they want to pay.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

shadowwolf said:


> Depending on who you talk to, co-owns are a blessing or the devil. It's all in how the contract benefits both the breeder of the dog AND the owner of the dog who'll be scooping poo, feeding, caring and generally maintaining the well-being of the dog. All of this should be discussed with a breeder before engaging in a contract.


I never co-owned so maybe I should read and learn about the good the bad and the ugly side of it before taking real actions when i get my money. I don't want to get involved in something that will end up f'ing me over.you know? I will do my homework..I really do want one from that line. such beautiful dogs!


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

RileyRoo said:


> I never co-owned so maybe I should read and learn about the good the bad and the ugly side of it before taking real actions when i get my money. I don't want to get involved in something that will end up f'ing me over.you know? I will do my homework..I really do want one from that line. such beautiful dogs!


I like what Shadowwolf said earlier, that if the breeder has everything that you desire in a dog, then to get it by all means. I did business with Andy from OFK and found out that his contract is more than fair, and while not everyone's contract will be exactly like this, simply asking questions will get you answers. Reputable breeders have nothing to hide, that is one of the many things that makes them reputable breeders. There's not a defined good or bad side to contracts IMO it's just what you are willing to abide by, and knowing any and all conditions before entering into a binding contract.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I co-own all my dogs with Cheryl and they are my dogs. A co-own protects the breeder so a buyer does not go and breed the dog to death. Co-own mean many thing depending on what your contract says. For example Cheryl owns the breeding rights on my dogs and that is fine with me. When I am ready to breed crush we will discuss the right male for her and Cheryl and I will breed her. If I want a puppy from that litter I can have a puppy it just has to be an approved stud. She does not want ppl breeding her to other dogs that are not compatible. It also protects the dog if the owner drops the ball and is not taking care of the dog the breeder can get the dog back. Just like what hap pended to my dog Typhoon I would not have been able to get her back. Cheryl has also had to take back a few dogs where they were being mistreated or not taken care of.

You hear horror stories with some breeders... I will not name kennels, that are horrible with co-owns. For example they require you to show the dog and get a CH by a certain age but you have to pay all the showing fees. They will let you breed the dogs but if you want a puppy you have to pay full price (that is not fair you should be able to get a puppy with no charge IMO) and the rest of the fees collected for selling the dog go to the breeder. Oh I forgot to say you have to pay the whelping costs! And it goes on from there. You just have to talk to the breeder and ask what is in the contract. Co-owns are great if you are dealing with a good breeder. 

As far as health testing goes she has health tested most of her dogs and retested the thyroids and they came back normal. If you have questions it is best to ask the breeder and find out the facts instead of hear say. Some dog that are not titled are very close to CH it is just a matter of getting to more shows. She took a lot of time working on her judges license's for the ADBA the last year and a half and instead of campaigning the dogs she was busy with that. Trina is almost finished she needs a few more shows.

As far as DA goes her lines are pretty neutral that is not to say that you cannot have a DA dog pop up but for the most part her dogs are very sweet and easy going. Like I said I have had over 9 of them and they were all great and that seems to be the norm for them. If they start to show any DA they respond well to correction and most of that is just training. So yes DA can come form anywhere but her dogs tends to be really cold for the most part.

So yes she is a great breeder IMO and a good friend, ppl will always find something negative to say about any breeder. She has produced some great dogs with great temperaments that do good in anything you do with them.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> I co-own all my dogs with Cheryl and they are my dogs. A co-own protects the breeder so a buyer does not go and breed the dog to death. Co-own mean many thing depending on what your contract says. For example Cheryl owns the breeding rights on my dogs and that is fine with me. When I am ready to breed crush we will discuss the right male for her and Cheryl and I will breed her. If I want a puppy from that litter I can have a puppy it just has to be an approved stud. She does not want ppl breeding her to other dogs that are not compatible. It also protects the dog if the owner drops the ball and is not taking care of the dog the breeder can get the dog back. Just like what hap pended to my dog Typhoon I would not have been able to get her back. Cheryl has also had to take back a few dogs where they were being mistreated or not taken care of.
> 
> You hear horror stories with some breeders... I will not name kennels, that are horrible with co-owns. For example they require you to show the dog and get a CH by a certain age but you have to pay all the showing fees. They will let you breed the dogs but if you want a puppy you have to pay full price (that is not fair you should be able to get a puppy with no charge IMO) and the rest of the fees collected for selling the dog go to the breeder. Oh I forgot to say you have to pay the whelping costs! And it goes on from there. You just have to talk to the breeder and ask what is in the contract. Co-owns are great if you are dealing with a good breeder.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

Pretty biased, but I can certainly understand with you owning 9 of the dogs from this kennel!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Of course it is bias! lol I did not own 9 of them I have trained over 9 of them and sent them back to the owners. I have owned 3 of them so far. I know it is bias but I also know more about her breeding program because we are good friends.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Of course it is bias! lol I did not own 9 of them I have trained over 9 of them and sent them back to the owners. I have owned 3 of them so far. I know it is bias but I also know more about her breeding program because we are good friends.


I understand. LOL the bias part was a joke, of course if you have that much experience with the dogs your opinion would be biased lol. But that is not a bad thing. IMO that would give a potential owner/buyer more background to go off of.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

I will figure out what i am doing come next year. I wanted insight on the kennel. thank you everyone!


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Non-DA means that they are Not Dog Aggressive. What Baha was saying that there are some Dog Aggressive dogs within the bloodline.


"Some" is really even conservative. More Lar-San dogs I've met are DA than not. At the coldest end, I've seen ones that are selectively DA or "fight back when challenged." But the majority of dogs I've met bred like that are not cold. Its always good to hope for the best and expect the worst.


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## tablerock (Oct 15, 2009)

..........


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

they are definatly beautiful dogs either way!! nice, very nice specimens. i think the lar-san bloodline is one of the most beautiful lines. of course, they are show lines  and with that being said, its kinda like a show and go car. they have it both.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

bahamutt99 said:


> "Some" is really even conservative. More Lar-San dogs I've met are DA than not. At the coldest end, I've seen ones that are selectively DA or "fight back when challenged." But the majority of dogs I've met bred like that are not cold. Its always good to hope for the best and expect the worst.


While Cheryl has some larsan lines in her bloodline, Cheryl's bloodline is it's own. She had really hot dogs like Xia, and Cherry, but most are pretty good with other other animals.

Just like with any APBT same sex aggression in the house can be there but that is a given with APBT's I am talking more about with dogs in public. They are more likely to play and bounce around than act aggressive. But don't take them and turn them lose in the dog park just yet! lol


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## boogiebot (Oct 7, 2009)

how did i miss this thread? hahaha i guess i have been away from GP for too long. 

Rileyroo did you ever get a hold of Cheryl from Caragan? She is a great lady and very knowledgable. I hope that you find the dog that you are looking for.


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## shadowwolf (Dec 5, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> While Cheryl has some larsan lines in her bloodline, Cheryl's bloodline is it's own. She had really hot dogs like Xia, and Cherry, but most are pretty good with other other animals.
> 
> Just like with any APBT same sex aggression in the house can be there but that is a given with APBT's I am talking more about with dogs in public. They are more likely to play and bounce around than act aggressive. But don't take them and turn them lose in the dog park just yet! lol


I actually beg to differ with you on some aspects, but do agree on others. These dogs do take a correction well if they fire on another dog BUT they don't range from mild to moderate. They range from moderate to hot.

The black dogs may be a bit more mild (Lyric is pretty sparky herself toward non-household dogs) but the red dogs are definitely quite spicy. Ryker's entire litter was pretty hot to trot other than Cricket and Frog, who didn't live to develop the terrier 'tude.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Amanda on the other forum PBPG we will get Cheryl to talk about DA with her current stock. No better place to get info but to ask the source!

Since so many there have dogs from her it will be good to hear from them as well. Im my experience and from talking to Cheryl about her dogs she is currently producing they have been pretty neutral. Let see what everyone's experience has been on PBPG.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I have co-owned dogs that I didnt pay for. 
I refuse to pay a show potential price to co-own a dog and then be told what to do with it.
Unless the breeder is going to share the show costs, the OFA and Vet costs, and the feeding costs..... it isnt advantageous for a person that knows what they want to do with their dogs.

Also...breeders that co-own dogs can be sued if the dog attacks someone.
A breeder I know in Arizona is having this problem as I post this.
A dog protected its owner from violence,
the person who assaulted my buddy got bitten by my buddies dog.
Now the breeder that co-owns the dog with my friend is being sued as well as my friend--
for medical bills caused by the bite.


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## Triniboy18 (Mar 22, 2009)

bahamutt99 said:


> "Some" is really even conservative. More Lar-San dogs I've met are DA than not. At the coldest end, I've seen ones that are selectively DA or "fight back when challenged." But the majority of dogs I've met bred like that are not cold. Its always good to hope for the best and expect the worst.


Just curious because I've been really interested in the Lar-san line from the start, and didn't want to have something watered down. But looking at some of performanceknls dogs their totally fit and athletic which is what i want


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Cheryl is a member here, but the discussion will only be continued on her private board where naysayers get banned? Now that really instills one with a great sense of confidence in just how free someone is being with their information. 

For what its worth, back when Cheryl and I were friendlier, I did try to ask her some questions about day blindness and if she's seen it in her own dogs. The response was "call me." She doesn't seem to like posting/emailing, and I don't like making phone calls, so the discussion ended there. I have asked questions directly and feel as though the response was evasive. Now she's not even responding but rather acting through a proxy, a designated hitter as it were. If she does respond, it will be on her own board.

I know there will always be some that have negative to say about even the best breeders. I am not one that looks for reasons to attack breeders, especially not breeders of a line I am interested in continuing myself. But after a while you get to notice things, and it is concerning to see people so snowed. DA all but wiped out in a few generations, health problems eliminated with no testing (and of course any negative results are either hearsay or were disproven privately). Dogs who are excused as a few points away from their CH are bred multiple times in the interim. There is no time for hitting those shows, but still time to whelp a litter. 

I think one of the reasons this bums me out so much personally is that there are so few breeders of heavy Lar-San dogs that are worth working with. I have found only one thus far that I would even consider entering into a partnership with. So forgive me for being tremendously disappointed.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

There are way too many breeders of fine dogs to deal with co-owning dogs.
Also...why would a APBT breeder waste time trying to breed out DA? That is foolish considering there are breeds of dog that weren't bred for DA are in fact DA. 
To say that DA is bred out of a real bull dog line...I think it is not truthful.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Fist off Cheryl was not trying to breed out DA it is just her dogs tend to be less DA than some other lines.

Lindsay don't be so bitter because you got banned from her board, I thought you were over that. If it was not for Cheryl you would not have the dogs you have today. I am not going to keep defending her, those that take the time to call her and talk to her know she is a great breeder. She tells everyone one to call her she hates dealing with ppl over email that is just the way she does business it had nothing to do with the day blindness. There is still no genetic marker for day blindness they are working on it but no health tests exists. Many lines are effected by it and the sad thing is many breeders are not up front about it. They just cull the puppies so no one will find out. Cheryl will openly talk to you about it all you have to do is call.


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