# Why do breeders do this



## tonios (Jul 24, 2009)

Why do so many breeders mix pure bloodlines? If different bloodlines are already well establish why are so many bloodlines in dogs? I have seen peds that had more than 5 different blood in them. I think you would want to dog because of what it bloodline is known for. I would love to get a 100% pure line but its really hard finding these dogs without some help...Lots of kennels bosst about having Pure bred bloodline but will sell you only crosses of that bloodline??? I am planing to attend dog show to find these types but again I think they're hard to come by.


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

tonios said:


> Why do so many breeders mix pure bloodlines? If different bloodlines are already well establish why are so many bloodlines in dogs? I have seen peds that had more than 5 different blood in them. I think you would want to dog because of what it bloodline is known for. I would love to get a 100% pure line but its really hard finding these dogs without some help...Lots of kennels bosst about having Pure bred bloodline but will sell you only crosses of that bloodline??? I am planing to attend dog show to find these types but again I think they're hard to come by.


If you don't bring in some new solid dogs your line will become too tight and lead to all kinds of problems. There are some tight, and I mean tight OFRN lines out there right now.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Oldskool Brent said:


> If you don't bring in some new solid dogs your line will become too tight and lead to all kinds of problems. There are some tight, and I mean tight OFRN lines out there right now.


you took the words out of my mouth! Yeah it is necessary to introduce new blood sometimes and by crossing lines you are bringing desirable traits together to get some really nice crosses. Jeep/redboy or Redboy/Jocko are a good example.


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## BmoreTrue (Jun 19, 2009)

i know nothing about breeding but i would think having such a small gene pool would lead to genetic issues (is that why mutts tend to have the least health issues)


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## tonios (Jul 24, 2009)

Thank you, again and again!
You member are the best when it comes to sharing your knowledge, I thought it might had something to do with the gene pool put was not totally sure. Great answers! Oh! I almost forgot to ask then why is Colby supposably 100% pure if you look at their ped you may find only one outcross. Thanks again


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

Absolutely.... too tight of breedings can eventually = a smaller gene pool and then genetic issues which may have been hidden for years may sometimes become prevalent. Doing outcrosses makes for more varied gene pool and can also help correct things in the existing line while also helping to avoid issues.

Proper breeding IMO is a science


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Colby dogs have a large gene pool to begin with.


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

Folks around here joke, "why marry outside the family when you know already what you are getting into?" In turn the families are huge and half crazy! LOL! But seriously you do want to have at least some variety in your line for the same reasons everyone else said.


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

I think too much inbreeding leads to sterility anyways, nature's own protective measure.

Here is a dog with about as tight of breeding I have ever seen, expand that pedigree and start counting. 

OLD FAMILY KENNELS |


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## pitbulllover27870 (Jul 6, 2008)

Oldskool Brent said:


> I think too much inbreeding leads to sterility anyways, nature's own protective measure.
> 
> Here is a dog with about as tight of breeding I have ever seen, expand that pedigree and start counting.
> 
> OLD FAMILY KENNELS |


wow!! tight lol


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

that some inbreeding if i ever saw it


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## luoozer (Apr 2, 2009)

i feel the same way, thats too tight for me. lots of brother sister breeding, i dont think id consider that line breeding, thats more inbreeding. 96% is too much, that gene pool is way too small IMO.


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

He's a nice looking dog, but that is way too many brother sister breedings. I won a pit pup in a raffle once that was brother sister breeding like that one and he looked good too until you looked at his mouth. He had rows of extra teeth that weren't all baby teeth. would have been better if there were some half-brother and half-sister breedings in there. At least there would be some outcross to it.(old family kennels)


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Oldskool Brent said:


> I think too much inbreeding leads to sterility anyways, nature's own protective measure.
> 
> Here is a dog with about as tight of breeding I have ever seen, expand that pedigree and start counting.
> 
> OLD FAMILY KENNELS |


omg that is horrible!.... kinda looks like the top half of neelas pedigree lmao


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Hey I know that dog and WOW what a great dog. It may be a little tight but i wonder what if any health issues they have.


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Hey I know that dog and WOW what a great dog. It may be a little tight but i wonder what if any health issues they have.


He may have none, it seems to be hit or miss. I'm actually intrigued by it since I just recently found all the online pedigree info. I'm amazed by all of it, it's so cool to trace them all back.


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Since I own a couple of dogs from OFK I can comment from first hand experience. The dogs DO NOT have any genetic defects or health issues. All the dogs are temperment, health and conformation correct.

The Hemphill family is one of the very few lines or familys that withstand alot of inbreeding. The Hemphill family is not to be confused with typical Hemphill/Wilder or OFRN dogs with crosses. The Hemphill family is similar to Redboy in the way both have closed gene pools and the dogs can be inbred and inbred extensively.

As far as Brent's statement hit or miss? How can that statement be made without actually owning the dogs? Throught the course of APBT history alot of breeders foundation dogs were very heavily inbred such as Boudreaux Scrub or Chavis Gr Ch Yellow John ROM.


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

First of all, I just said that dog had the tightest breeding I have ever seen. That dog is as inbred as a dog can be. I never implied THAT DOG or ANY OTHER SPECIFIC DOG had issues.

Secondly, "hit or miss" is just that, genes/DNA are hit and miss to begin with, and when you inbreed that tight you increase your chances of having multiple issues for health, physical and mental. There is no way to "close the gene pool" and inbreed forever successfully because their name appeared in a Stratton book. 

Thirdly, it's science, not opinion. You close the gene pool off, you get problems down the road until the gene pool can no longer be bred because the offspring become sterile, it's hardcoated in our DNA.


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Let me breakdown what you wrote Brent so you have a better understanding of genetics and bloodlines.

First of all, I just said that dog had the tightest breeding I have ever seen. That dog is as inbred as a dog can be.

*I can understand you made this statement from personal knowledge but your personal knowledge is limited. There are alot more inbred dogs than the one or ones from OFK you are talking about. Some of the dogs just off the top of my head that come to mind are the Haymaker Redboy dogs. The Haymaker gene pool has been closed since Redboy was bred to Cleo circa early 80's. Haymaker dogs have about 3 to 4 generations more of inbreeding than OFK's Hemphill dogs.

I never implied THAT DOG or ANY OTHER SPECIFIC DOG had issues.

* Once again you are WRONG because in your next paragraph you did...here it is.

Secondly, "hit or miss" is just that, genes/DNA are hit and miss to begin with, and when you inbreed that tight you increase your chances of having multiple issues for health, physical and mental. There is no way to "close the gene pool" and inbreed forever successfully because their name appeared in a Stratton book. 

*When inbreeding genes aren't hit or miss because the genes are compounded due to inbreeding. The odds are stacked in whatever favor the breeder decides that's why breeders inbreed in the first place. Usually they inbreed for specific traits and over the course of time the offspring aren't 50/50 or hit and miss because the specific traits are dramatically increased due to inbreeding. 

*The Hemphill dogs from OFK are from a closed gene pool because Spike was bred to Maude in 1978 and there hasn't been any fresh blood added since. If my math is correct the gene pool has been closed for 31+ yeaars now. Also the last time I checked OFK could care less whose names appear in Stratton books and so does their dogs. Once again that is an incorrect ASSumption on your part due to lack of first hand knowledge of OFK's breeding practices.

Thirdly, it's science, not opinion. You close the gene pool off, you get problems down the road until the gene pool can no longer be bred because the offspring become sterile, it's hardcoated in our DNA.

*I'm glad you brought up science because you also failed to mention dogs have twice the chromosomes of humans. Once again you are talking from lack of knowledge and your ASSumptions are wrong. The oldest family of dogs (Colby) has had their gene pool closed since Dime was bred to the 3/4 Rifle females. Last I checked the Colby dogs were still around and somehow their reproductive organs are still fuctioning hence there are many Colby dogs around today. When you said hardcoated in our DNA...are you talking humans or dogs? If you are talking dogs I guess your ASSumptions wouldn't be correct because there would be no such thing as pure Redboy, Boudreaux, Colby and Hemphill dogs.

*I like to speak from a first hand perspective and factual perspective that way I don't make ASSumptions. The next time you want to make ASSumptions about a particular line or family you have no factual or first hand knowledge of...you might want to know facts before ASSuming!


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

BuckFan said:


> Let me breakdown what you wrote Brent so you have a better understanding of genetics and bloodlines.
> 
> First of all, I just said that dog had the tightest breeding I have ever seen. That dog is as inbred as a dog can be.
> 
> ...


If you were half as smart as you thought you were, I would still consider you an idiot. You can inbreed a dog far more than a human, inbreeding is a huge part of even creating a purebreed. I don't recall saying otherwise. What I remember is saying there is a fine line. That dog is on the precipice of it, and if you think it isn't than I don't know what to tell you.

You quote my exact words and still don't even get it right and said I called out a particular dog. Nowhere did I say anything about that dog but he was inbred to hell and back, expand his friggen pedigree for christ's sake. Just because someone inbred their line more doesn't mean much.

Colby dogs were a wide pool to begin with, and if you research peds most dogs have some Colby in them from the 7th generation and beyond. But you're not seeing Colby all over the place now, are you? They are not the powerhouse breeder that they were at the turn of the 20th century so their original line probably doesn't need outcrossed to hell and back but I'm sure there is plenty of inbreeding within it. When I said it's hardcoated in "our" DNA I was talking about life in general, mammals specifically.

You're talking about assumptions of a particular line when I posted the damned pedigree I was talking about and the dog is inbred to hell and back. There is no denying that dog is inbred to hell and back. So me using it as a tight breeding example is spot on and the only thing I said about that dog or line. The rest is you going off on a tangent about things I never said or implied about any breeder or line specifically. You seem to be going off on me because I insulted some dog you favor when I insulted nothing, just showed the OP a pedigree with tight breeding. Take the breaking stick out of your ass and go reread the thread. Inbreeding can only go so far before issues arise, FACT. The dog I used as an example of inbreeding is inbred, FACT. Genes are hit and miss and the further you inbreed a line the greaer you increase the odds of problems, FACT. Anything else you have to say is post facto of you calling me out. So I insulted no dog, no line, and didn't spout off out the mouth at which I know nothing about.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

ok well most breeders that i know will inbreed there dogs for a trait. but they all do father to daughter and mother to son i have never seen my freinds and family breed there dogs brother and sister thats looking for problems and you will get them like that. 
not every time but you will and alot of breeders that breed that tight just kill the dogs with the genetic defects any way. its sad but true. I like some inbreed dogs i just think there is eanough good dogs out there to have a bigger gene pool thats all.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm enjoying this debate you guys, but lets keep the mud slinging down please... there's no sense in making this personal.


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Brent once again let me copy and paste your exact words so you can't backpedal.

If you were half as smart as you thought you were, I would still consider you an idiot. You can inbreed a dog far more than a human, inbreeding is a huge part of even creating a purebreed. I don't recall saying otherwise. What I remember is saying there is a fine line. That dog is on the precipice of it, and if you think it isn't than I don't know what to tell you.

* The difference between you and me I always speak from a factual and first hand perspective that way I never ASSume. That fine line you are talking about is your ASSumption. The dog you speak of being on the precipice is also your ASSumption, let me explain why.

*Have you seen the dog you speak of that is on the precipice in person? 

*How many offspring have you seen off that above mentioned dog?

*Have you asked OFK about the faults the above mentioned dog has and his offspring have?

*Have you spoken to the original breeder of OFK's dogs to know the above dog you mentioned has faults?

*If you have done none of this is it safe to say EVERYTHING you have ever said concerning the dog and it's offspring is your personal ASSumption and not FACT?!

You quote my exact words and still don't even get it right and said I called out a particular dog. Nowhere did I say anything about that dog but he was inbred to hell and back, expand his friggen pedigree for christ's sake. Just because someone inbred their line more doesn't mean much.

*I copy and paste your exact words so there is no confusion and I do understand your perspective which isn't factual, first hand and from the outside looking in.

*Why does OFK need to expand any pedigree? That is your personal ASSumption and I'm sure it comes from breeding an inbred family. I'm sure you have been extremely successful with breeding, maintaining and improving an inbred family...right? I can see once again you are talking from personal, first hand and from a factual perspective. Your handle escapes me but I'm sure you have been just as successful if not more successful than the original breeder and OFK has with the same family of dogs. I guess having dogs better than what Hemphill left doesn't mean much to some...some are just impossible to please.

Colby dogs were a wide pool to begin with, and if you research peds most dogs have some Colby in them from the 7th generation and beyond. But you're not seeing Colby all over the place now, are you? They are not the powerhouse breeder that they were at the turn of the 20th century so their original line probably doesn't need outcrossed to hell and back but I'm sure there is plenty of inbreeding within it. When I said it's hardcoated in "our" DNA I was talking about life in general, mammals specifically. 

*Brent being the ABT historian such as yourself I'm shocked that you would make such incorrect statements. Colby never had a wide pool to begin with because JL Colby was one of a handful of APBT breeders in the early 20th century. The reason why you don't see Colby's name all over the place is because in 1999 Lawless Links had 1500+ kennels listed on their website compared to the handful of kennels in 1899. It's easy to be a powerhouse when their are only a handful of kennels to compete against. Once again I'm really suprised you didn't know the Colby dogs gene pool has been closed since Dime was bred to those 3/4 Rifle females, I thought that was APBT 101. I think it would be safe to say the Colby dogs are just a little inbred...I'll agree with you there...lol. I have to admit I was a little confused when you made the statement "our DNA." Last time I checked not all mammals have the same DNA.

You're talking about assumptions of a particular line when I posted the damned pedigree I was talking about and the dog is inbred to hell and back. There is no denying that dog is inbred to hell and back. So me using it as a tight breeding example is spot on and the only thing I said about that dog or line. The rest is you going off on a tangent about things I never said or implied about any breeder or line specifically.

*I don't need to talk about assumptions because when I speak its first hand and factual. Sure the dog is inbred no denying that but to ASSume the dog is on the precipice or genes are hit or miss when talking about that particular dog you are wrong. The reason why you are wrong is because you have no first hand knowledge of the dog or it's offspring. I can speak from a factual point of view because I have seen the dog many times, handwalked him a few times and see ALL it's offspring...EVERYONE! Since I'm very good friends with OFK it's safe to say NONE of the dogs sold or owned have ever had any problems WHATSOEVER! I own some of the best bred Buck dogs on thsi planet coming thru the Gaston dogs and sons and daughters of Machobuck but the Hemphill dogs are some of the favorite dogs I have ever owned in 30+ years of owning APBTS.

You seem to be going off on me because I insulted some dog you favor when I insulted nothing, just showed the OP a pedigree with tight breeding. Take the breaking stick out of your ass and go reread the thread. Inbreeding can only go so far before issues arise, FACT. The dog I used as an example of inbreeding is inbred, FACT. Genes are hit and miss and the further you inbreed a line the greaer you increase the odds of problems, FACT. Anything else you have to say is post facto of you calling me out. So I insulted no dog, no line, and didn't spout off out the mouth at which I know nothing about.

*If you've been around these dogs for any length of time you develop thick skin so if you think I was going off on you once again you are WRONG! You might want to reread my posts and see where you got moist.

*When you talk about inbreeding when it comes to OFK's Hemphill dogs do you know when and who cleaned up the gene pool? These are simple things you should have known before ASSuming. Once again Brent being the APBT historian you think you are you would have known this. Since you don't which really suprises me let me tell you. The gene pool was cleaned 4 or 5 generations BEFORE the above mentioned dog. I think this is the reason why it's safe to say the dog and it's offspring are what they are. The credit goes to the most successful OFRN breeder in HISTORY who OFK gives thanks to in the history section of their website.

*The dog you mentioned is post facto concerning inbreeding. The gene pool was cleaned which I'm sure you knew because of your APBT bloodline expertise I'm sure you just forgot.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Buckfan let ME back peddle.......

I'm enjoying this debate you guys, but lets keep the mud slinging down please... there's no sense in making this personal.


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Indigo it's never personal..strictly business!


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Good deal, I just assumed by this statement...


"If you were half as smart as you thought you were, I would still consider you an idiot."


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

We all know what assuming does... lol


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Hold on, hold on. Now I'm getting lost. Is it "assume" or "ASSume?" :roll:


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> Hold on, hold on. Now I'm getting lost. Is it "assume" or "ASSume?" :roll:


i think theyre just talkin some


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Well, this is one of those rare threads where the info and knowledge are far more interesting than the argument. A lot of good stuff gets buried under BS. Shame...


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

It is a shame. Glad at least me and your can agree to disagree lol


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

bluefamily said:


> Folks around here joke, "why marry outside the family when you know already what you are getting into?" In turn the families are huge and half crazy! LOL! But seriously you do want to have at least some variety in your line for the same reasons everyone else said.


That is way 2 funny but true all at the same time :goodpost::goodpost:


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> Well, this is one of those rare threads where the info and knowledge are far more interesting than the argument. A lot of good stuff gets buried under BS. Shame...


I agree 100%


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

StaffyDaddy said:


> It is a shame. Glad at least me and your can agree to disagree lol


High five.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Go ahead and say it... "Shana you're an ass" lmao... No one will feel the wrath!


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Go ahead and say it... "Shana you're an ass" lmao... No one will feel the wrath!


OK I am going to quote you so I don't feel the wrath LOL


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Patch-O-Pits said:


> Absolutely.... too tight of breedings can eventually = a smaller gene pool and then genetic issues which may have been hidden for years may sometimes become prevalent. Doing outcrosses makes for more varied gene pool and can also help correct things in the existing line while also helping to avoid issues.
> 
> Proper breeding IMO is a science


:goodpost:


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Here is just another example of hundreds of extremely inbred dogs.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [4091] :: BOUDREAUX' BLIND BILLY (1XW)(1XL)

Notice in this ped this is the genetic make-up of the dogs that made Dibo. Heinzl must have inbred the dogs because of the particular traits coming down from the dogs, I highly doubt he kept inbreeding the dogs because the offspring were hit or miss.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [4088] :: *BOUDREAUX' SCRUB (1XL)**

I see FB closed off the gene pool after he bred Blind Billy to Paula. I'm not going to make theassumption that the offspring off the initial breeding to Paula were hit or miss because I don not know FB's breeding and culling methods. I will make one assumption...he must have liked what he saw to produce a 15/16th Blind Billy dog in Scrub.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [8710] :: BOUDREAUX' BOZE (1XW)

FB must have "HIT" on something to inbreed Scrub(15/16th) to Red(3/4) to produce Boze. Notice no fresh blood added and the gene pool has been closed since the initial breeding of Billy to Paula.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [893] :: CUMMINGS' DUTCH BOY(5xW)

Hmmm I wonder if this dog was hit or "MISS" considering it's a 3/4 Boze dog? Notice gene pool still closed, I wonder if FB or Cummings needed to "friggen expand the ped?"

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=1289

Cummings must have liked what he saw to breed Dutch Boy to a dog with the SAME closed gene pool.

There are 100's of examples of extremely inbred dogs...probably 1000's.

I guess this dog was also on the "PERCIPICE."

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=7234

Without breaking down that pedigree generation by generation I can tell you after the gene pool was closed there were quite a bit of extensive inbreeding...just a little.

Here is another example of dogs on the "PRECIPICE and HIT and MISS" breedings. I wonder why someone would breed that way?..lol.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=290011*


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

ok none of those are as bad as the original one. they are not breeding the same way they are breeding half brother to half sister not full to full its different.
the dna in a dog is like a human and you mitocondrial dna is passed from your parents so its made of half your mom and half your dad same in dogs and if you have a full brother and sister the genes are the same thats why you end up deffects.


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

BuckFan said:


> Brent
> 
> Blah
> 
> ...


Once again you are caught up on thinking I insulted some dog or some breeders line, which I didn't, not directly anyways and you're just going off about it while trying to back me down by showing me your vast knowledge of Hemphill and Colby lines when the argument is about inbreeding and why you outcross.

Now if you want my thoughts on that particular dog, given the fact I have never experienced that dog nor it's line, and I'm already getting flamed for it, I'll give them. That page, dog, breeding and pedigree had one thing in mind: BRAGGING RIGHTS. That dog was bred so someone can say, "look at this dog I have, the tightest documented OFRN on the planet, 96%!!" Whether the dog is worthy of being in the movie Deliverence is beside the point, as I don't know. But from a genetic standpoint he might as well be sitting on the porch listening to that kid picking a banjo, because he's more inbred. There is no other reason to breed a dog _*THAT*_ tight.

Just a partial count of that dog's lineage:

Geronimo: 15 times
Geronimo II: 8 times
Satan: 8 times
Rebel: 8 times
Duster: 9 times
Red Flame: 6 times
Lil Babe: 5 times
Cyclone: 4 times
Tornado: 2 times
Storm: 2 times

There is no arguing that dog is inbred as hell.

This argument is so off topic that I had to go back and reread it. The OP asked why they outcross, I answered, others agreed, I showed an example of the tighted bred dog I have stumbled across, and now we're here, LOL.:hammer:

So refresh my memory once more, what are we arguing about? Because right now the best I can tell is somehow I stepped on your ego and you're lashing out and want me and you to have a battle of who knows more about the general history of lines instead of inbreeding, outcrossing and the effects of it.

I'm going to leave this thread/post on this note. I never said that dog has issues, I said it is bred tight, reinforced it by saying "It's inbred to hell and back," stated that genes are hit and miss, the chances of problems increase with each inbreeding, stated too much inbreeding can lead to sterile offspring as well, Colby had a large gene pool to begin with that has trailed off since the turn of the last century, and I stand by all those as damned fine points. :woof:


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

man if they were breeding to get the same traits they did a good job.
we have a inbreed bunch living down the road from us anout 2 miles we call them jay limp and j drool on account the are both named jay. 
and one limps and the other drools.


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Blue this where you are wrong. Two generations of breeding bro/sis ISN'T nearly as extensive as breeding on a closed gene pool for 7 to 10 generations.


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

Oldskool Brent said:


>


I think they are both drooling is that a good trait or not. If that is what they were breeding for than I think the got it. :rofl:


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

BuckFan said:


> Blue this where you are wrong. Two generations of breeding bro/sis ISN'T nearly as extensive as breeding on a closed gene pool for 7 to 10 generations.


ok well i realy don't want to argue the genetics so im not. good luck with the inbreeding.:hammer::hammer:


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> ok well i realy don't want to argue the genetics so im not. good luck with the inbreeding.:hammer::hammer:


And that should be the game folks. Tie game, Agree to disagree, Even Steven,THE END:clap:


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

Sadie's Dad said:


> I think they are both drooling is that a good trait or not. If that is what they were breeding for than I think the got it. :rofl:


The good looking one doesn't drool as nearly as much as the other one.


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Once again let me copy and paste your exact words Brent.

Once again you are caught up on thinking I insulted some dog or some breeders line, which I didn't, not directly anyways and you're just going off about it while trying to back me down by showing me your vast knowledge of Hemphill and Colby lines when the argument is about inbreeding and why you outcross.

*Which one is it directly or indirectly? I think we all know what you were assuming. You were checked on the statements you made which implied direct or indirect insults so we don't need to go there. It wasn't about showing a vast knowledge of lines it was about showing the breeding practices of breeders of certain inbred lines or familys.

Now if you want my thoughts on that particular dog, given the fact I have never experienced that dog nor it's line, and I'm already getting flamed for it, I'll give them. That page, dog, breeding and pedigree had one thing in mind: BRAGGING RIGHTS. That dog was bred so someone can say, "look at this dog I have, the tightest documented OFRN on the planet, 96%!!" Whether the dog is worthy of being in the movie Deliverence is beside the point, as I don't know. But from a genetic standpoint he might as well be sitting on the porch listening to that kid picking a banjo, because he's more inbred. There is no other reason to breed a dog THAT tight.

*Brent I'm really shocked that you would make an ASSUMPTION like that...lol.
Last time I checked telling facts and absolute truth wasn't bragging. I can also tell you this becauseII know this to be 100% FACT that dog wasn't bred the way it is for bragging rights. The family was kept together because of what the family produced inbred no different than Boudreaux Scrub or Boze. Considering what the dog is, had done and produced is the reason why the dog is held in high esteem by many. Funny Brent you contacted OFK wanting to buy a puppy and when you couldn't afford it your tune has changed to bragging...lol. I'll be more than happy to copy and paste the email you sent OFK making excuses why you couldn't afford the price of the pup...lol.

This argument is so off topic that I had to go back and reread it. The OP asked why they outcross, I answered, others agreed, I showed an example of the tighted bred dog I have stumbled across, and now we're here, LOL. 

*The argument is real simple and has been answered many times in documented APBT history and in black and white in a ped. Yes you can continue inbreeding without outcrossing. I have named a half a dozen breeders and a several familys being bred today without crosses, closed gene pools and inbred. 

So refresh my memory once more, what are we arguing about? Because right now the best I can tell is somehow I stepped on your ego and you're lashing out and want me and you to have a battle of who knows more about the general history of lines instead of inbreeding, outcrossing and the effects of it.

*Those who make assumptions agrue I only pointed out facts. Showed pedigrees of extremely bred dogs today and from the past. I highly doubt you can step on my ego because I don't have one. I think OFK stepped on your ego I mean wallet when you couldn't afford a dog from them., I think that's the underlying hostility but that's just an assumption from me. I figured it's OK to make an assumption every now and again, I got a little tired talking about facts and first hand experiences...lol.

I'm going to leave this thread/post on this note. I never said that dog has issues, I said it is bred tight, reinforced it by saying "It's inbred to hell and back," stated that genes are hit and miss, the chances of problems increase with each inbreeding, stated too much inbreeding can lead to sterile offspring as well, Colby had a large gene pool to begin with that has trailed off since the turn of the last century, and I stand by all those as damned fine points. 

*The dog is bred tight who cares? Does the dog have any problems...NOPE!? Does the dog have offspring with problems...NOPE!? The gene pool has been cleaned by an experience dogman who has done all the leg work. I had to explain this for you Brent so you don't have to assume...hell if you could have afforded a dog you would have found all this out first hand without assuming.

*Colby never had a large gene pool and that would be necause there were only a handful of APBT breeders ate the turn of the last century. Newsflash Brent there are more Colby breeders today and more Colby dogs on the ground today than there ever has been in HISTORY! I'm still looking for some fine points...did I miss them?

Blue I don't know if FB is still accepting phone calls but you might want to give an experienced, documented breeder who has bred dogs that belong in the foundation of alot of familys and lines today what he thinks is more extensive...a couple of generations of bro/sis breedings or 7 to whatever generations of breeding a closed gene pool.

Tonios to answer your original question...YES you can inbreed without crossing. Yes you can continue to keep inbreeding as long as you are an experienced dogman who has spent considerable time with the family or line you inbreed. Pet owners or hobbyists should steer clear of extensive inbreeding.


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

BuckFan said:


> Once again let me copy and paste your exact words Brent.
> 
> Once again you are caught up on thinking I insulted some dog or some breeders line, which I didn't, not directly anyways and you're just going off about it while trying to back me down by showing me your vast knowledge of Hemphill and Colby lines when the argument is about inbreeding and why you outcross.
> 
> ...


You're a weird guy, so hostile. I have no axe to grind here against OFK or anything, nor criticism of their dogs. Assuming I don't have money is funny, I'm fairly certain I could afford any dog I wanted. I have my sights set on a Bedlington Terrier and they're not exactly cheap.

I like how experienced dogmen can overcome genetics, that's good stuff, keep it coming. And tell me more about this mystical cleansing of the line, given it was a sparce line to begin with and Bob Wallace put his part of it down as he could not bare to see someone take it over and run it into the ground. Because it looks to me, judging by the lines I have seen that the mystical cleansing involved breeding the hell out of Geronimo to all his siblings and offspring they could find and adding a few zero's to the pricetag.


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Brent let me refresh your memory!

From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:48:49 -0400
Subject: Re: pups for sale
To: [email protected]

So your saying you want 2K for a puppy, LOL! Are you serious dude? Who do you expect to get a puppy for 2K buddy...? C'mon bud, how do you expect a working man to pay 2K for a puppy...I dont sell drugs my friend or have a trust fund. Im just a 35yr old country boy who works plus goes to school full time. I thought you were going to be reasonable. Not new to the dogs my friend, I can appreciate the accomplishments of the parents but a puppy is a puppy...you should know that.

In a message dated 7/31/2009 14:01:38 Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:

* Let's count the excuses...
1) How do expect a working man to pay 2k.
2) I don't sell drugs.
3) I don't have a trust fund.
4) I'm just a 35year old country boy who works and goes to scholl full time.

*Brent here is the truth in your next email.

Re: pups for sale‏
From: [email protected] 
You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as junk 
Sent: Sat 8/01/09 12:40 PM 
To: [email protected]

I'm glad you can get that...if you can get it! Your dogs are bred exceptional, no doubt. I really like how heavy bred they are. Wish I had that kind of money sitting around to spend on a puppy! I would definitely get one one. Thanks

In a message dated 7/31/2009 21:56:21 Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:

You're a weird guy, so hostile. I have no axe to grind here against OFK or anything, nor criticism of their dogs. Assuming I don't have money is funny, I'm fairly certain I could afford any dog I wanted. I have my sights set on a Bedlington Terrier and they're not exactly cheap.

*I'm far from a weird guy and not hostile. You may not have an ax to grind with OFK but you sure changed your tune after you couldn't afford a dog from OFK. You went from wishing you had the money to get a pup from OFK to the website be some bragging tool. Why didn'y you say all this when you were making excuses why you couldn't afford a pup? LMAO!

*Maybe you are better off owning a lap dog and not an APBT! I didn't assume anything its in black and white what you could afford and the excuses that went with it. You might want to put down that tall glass of HATERADE you been drinking for the last few posts on this thread...LMAO!

I like how experienced dogmen can overcome genetics, that's good stuff, keep it coming. And tell me more about this mystical cleansing of the line, given it was a sparce line to begin with and Bob Wallace put his part of it down as he could not bare to see someone take it over and run it into the ground.

*So what you are trying to say there are no such dogs as Boze, Scrub, Bouregard, Sealer, Haymaker, Cadillac II and Danger? Dis you not see the post on dogs FB started with all the way to Sealer? Why don't you get on the phone with those who have done it so don't assume anything...that would be the first step. Maybe you might start making excuses why you can't afford to call them...lol. Did the thought ever occur to you in between assuming things that Wallace didn't want his dogs in inexperienced dogmen's hand and ruin a lifetime of his hard work?

Because it looks to me, judging by the lines I have seen that the mystical cleansing involved breeding the hell out of Geronimo to all his siblings and offspring they could find and adding a few zero's to the pricetag.

*The price doesn't matter it's what has been preserved that does. The dogs determine the price and what people are willing and can afford to pay...YOU JUST AREN'T ONE OF THEM! Was I assuming again...oops NO! I had to reread your emails full of excuses...LMAO!


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

BuckFan said:


> Brent let me refresh your memory!
> 
> From: [email protected]
> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:48:49 -0400
> ...


You talk about assuming and then post a bunch of e-mails from someone else? :clap::rofl:

Different Brent dude, I'm living in West Virginia with a 13 year old Pit Bull who will be my last Pit Bull after 28 years of solid ownership. I knew you had an agenda, which is why you went on some weird tangent arguing about stuff I never said or implied.

If I wanted a high money pit bull I would find one and buy it outright, don't know what to tell you. You just threw down your trump card, the one you been saving up and you just ended up owning yourself, good stuff.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

<<<<<<<<<<LMFAO>>>>>>>>>

great stuff lets quit responding to any of this on this thread and then we don't have to worry about it.


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> <<<<<<<<<<LMFAO>>>>>>>>>
> 
> great stuff lets quit responding to any of this on this thread and then we don't have to worry about it.


Yeah, I'm done. And contrary to how he took it, I never thought OFK is/was a bad breeder with bad dogs or that even that dog was bad, it's a great looking dog. I just happened upon that pedigree and bookmarked it one time. I am not that Brent either. 

Like I said above, I'm moving onto Bedlington Terrier's for 2 reasons; my wife is allergic to Pit Bull hair (it breaks her skin out), and I'm just plain tired of dealing with the hassles that come with owning a pit these days. I've went through it all and it's your guy's time to carry the torch, I will always love the breed though and defend it whenever I can. :doggy:


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Funny Brent the email came from an ISP from Martinsburg West Virginia. Would you like me to post the exact address Brent...LMAO!

Nice try!


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

Hey Brent you kind of told on yourself with this statement.

Because it looks to me, judging by the lines I have seen that the mystical cleansing involved breeding the hell out of Geronimo to all his siblings and offspring they could find and adding a few zero's to the pricetag.


*How did you know the price Brent?...LMAO! All someone who moderates the board has to do is track your ISP number einstein. Don't worry OFK can track how many times you visted their site in the past seven days and has your exact address....LMAO!


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

BuckFan said:


> Funny Brent the email came from an ISP from Martinsburg West Virginia. Would you like me to post the exact address Brent...LMAO!
> 
> Nice try!


You can send that address to the FBI as a suspected terrorist for all I care, it's not me and I do live in Martinsburg, WV, which is crazy. I've never had an AOL account in my life and ever sen an e-mail to you inquiring about your dog. Keep on assuming though, you're throwing the other Brent guy under the bus nicely, maybe I'll e-mail him and start a Martinsburg Brent club.


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## BuckFan (Aug 8, 2008)

What a coincidence...LOL!...LMAO!


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

BuckFan said:


> What a coincidence...LOL!...LMAO!


Dude, you're barking up the wrong tree. It wasn't me, you can post that e-mail all over the place and I could care less. What's funny is the guy probably saw the link I posted and contacted you and you're killing the poor sap. Try and see if the mods or admins can use that e-mail to find a userid here, he could have entered this thread at one point.

This is fruitless, bye bye.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

can we get this thread deleted?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Since you cannot act like adults how about we just close the thread.


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