# What is the general rule concerning...



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

the bragging rights to famous bulldogs of the past? I know I won't be able to articulate this correctly, but what I'm saying is at what point is claiming my pup is ie. Redboy, Eli, Gator, etc. starting to reach a bit? After the 4th gen.? Does there have to be at least more than one mention of this famous bulldog in the peds? I would think so. I mean most of these famous bulldogs have been dead for quite some time now. All of our pups trace back to someone famous, but that shouldn't qualify them as such, especially when the percentage of lineage is low to begin with. Saying that your pup is from the same "family" I understand, when the breedings are tighter and the proof is there. Just curious


----------



## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

*According to the ADBA:*
_A bloodline can be based on a breeder, such as in the example of Howard Heinzl, or it can also be based on an individual stud dog or brood bitch. In this case, it is usually a prominent dog that genetically throws such quality, that a high percentage of its offspring all breed true for this quality. An example of this is Crenshaw's (Jerry's) Champion Honeybunch. Honeybunch was a bitch from the Carver and Boudreaux bloodline which genetically possessed such quality that, when bred to five different stud dogs, produced top dogs from every litter. There was no wrong way to breed this bitch. She produced quality from all five breeders. One of her sons, Crenshaw's Champion Jeep, is given credit in some circles for being one of the greatest producing studs of modern APBT history, You hear of fanciers, that credit Jeep with establishing a distinct "bloodline" of his own. We can argue that, Jeep is really a dog from the Honeybunch line or 25% Carver, 25% Boudreaux, 50% Loposay cross, depending on how far back in his pedigree you want to go or to whom you want to give the credit._


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Nice post mama! I'm not sure I'm getting the answer I'm looking for. I guess I'm just wondering when it becomes silly to say "our pup is Jeep/Redboy ie." when A) it is so far back in the peds and B) may only be present once or so on one side. I mean there has to be a statute of limitations in time here, right? Not to mention the dilution process that accrues over the years. How long can you "borrow" famous blood in your pup before it becomes folly to say so, even if there is some existence of it?


----------



## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

LOL Yes, I totally misinterpreted your post and I am not sure about the statute of limitations so to speak, but I think it is an excellent question. My two posts have nothing to do with what you asked so disregard. lmmfao Sorry, it is early!! I'll leave the one post from the ADBA.


----------



## Loke-a-doke (Jun 11, 2010)

How do you know what bloodlines your dog has? Is it something you can only know forsure if you have papers? I've tried to read some on the bloodlines discussions but that stuff is already so over my head lol
I'm really just wondering haha I'm not even sure Loki's full pit...


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Nothing to apologize about mama I'm appreciative of all your help! I just see it mentioned on here and in magazines that a pup, or breeding, is from...insert a famous bulldog here...and you don't even see said bulldog in the ped, you know? I liken it to me claiming that since Abe Lincoln is in my heritage, I am Abe Lincoln-like (not a descendant of Abe BTW LOL!). The relevance becomes very irrelevant. To me, to say that this "famous bulldog" is present in a pup's background is OK (even then, it seems as though an accepted percentage should exist), but to advertise as if the pup is a direct result of this "famous bulldog" is misleading at best.
P.S. I just figured out what CMTFU means Lauren, and now you have CMTFU!!!


----------



## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

Loke-a-doke said:


> How do you know what bloodlines your dog has? Is it something you can only know forsure if you have papers? I've tried to read some on the bloodlines discussions but that stuff is already so over my head lol
> I'm really just wondering haha I'm not even sure Loki's full pit...


Without papers youre guess is as good as mine.:roll:


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Loke-a-doke said:


> How do you know what bloodlines your dog has? Is it something you can only know forsure if you have papers? I've tried to read some on the bloodlines discussions but that stuff is already so over my head lol
> I'm really just wondering haha I'm not even sure Loki's full pit...


Loke, yes, having the proper paperwork is the only way to navigate your way thru your pup's lineage/bloodline And even then, some paperwork has been falsified in the past, and present. The same can be said for online peds. However, when you have the paperwork, you have a point of beginning at least. Word of mouth is just that, unless your circle of friends include Colby, Boudreaux, Hammonds, etc. LOL!!!


----------



## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> Nothing to apologize about mama I'm appreciative of all your help! I just see it mentioned on here and in magazines that a pup, or breeding, is from...insert a famous bulldog here...and you don't even see said bulldog in the ped, you know? I liken it to me claiming that since Abe Lincoln is in my heritage, I am Abe Lincoln-like (not a descendant of Abe BTW LOL!). The relevance becomes very irrelevant. To me, to say that this "famous bulldog" is present in a pup's background is OK (even then, it seems as though an accepted percentage should exist), but to advertise as if the pup is a direct result of this "famous bulldog" is misleading at best.
> P.S. I just figured out what CMTFU means Lauren, and now you have CMTFU!!!


Interesting question and I would also like to know the answer to this. Anyone?

lol Christian you were pondering that acronym for a hot minute. LMBFWGBO


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

NYJSOL = Now you're just showing off, Lauren What am I going to do with you young'ens?


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

St Francis.. GREAT QUESTIONS!!!

JMO .. 

Mayday is Jocko/redboy/bolio... Yet tant considered him a tant dog.. however in the world today unless you get a stud from Maday yourself you are JMO getting a Mayday dog not a Tants/Bolio dog. Its just as she said depending on ie:breeder, depends on "bloodline" Some take Maday to more tants, some take it to bolio some just play around with the lines of Jocko/Redboy/Bolio .. funny You can find pure Jocko dogs in asian islands Japan, Phillipines, etc.. but not to many here in the States, cause they're HOT ..LOL JMO hahaha but people call the lines here Jocko/redboy and redboy/jocko funny thing is not many dogs are out there without either or they do come in heavy or light for the most part however they are some pure Redboy just like the rare pure Jocko. What we have now is a mass whirlwind of STP type copycats, and Maday copy cats, People stacking Jocko/Redboy/Bolio together without honoring the breeding that made the great dogs like Mayday and Tants Yellow which those are the breeding that should be reproduced to continue those type bred dogs.. If you have a dog that has Ch Chavis Jocko in it more times than any other then you have a Jocko dog, same as if it says Mayday more than others etc.. etc... pure Mayday would be pure Jocko/Redboy/bolio; so some would say that this is the purest strain of those 3 dogs you can get, take hammonds he has the purest strain of Alligator from Eli, and thus the most untouched strain of Eli because his scientific type mind and breeding program. We know this because Wildside used Hammonds ALOT, hard.. hard mouthed bulldogs is why, just like Alligator the real Gator., however rufus is the closest so they would be pure rufus of that alligator stuff, LOL Wildside used everyone they bred much like tudors, good dogs.. well wildside dogs that are out there are wildside dogs, hardly any out there and the ones that are have all the goodies in one.. Does this help or just confuse you more? Hmm.. Okay.. what ever dog is in the pedigree the most is what your dog is, NOW what ever THAT dog is, is off of~ SO you would have mayday if his name more than any, and thats off of that Jocko/redboy/bolio or tants/hollingsworth type breeding.. which names the line for most..


----------



## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

But can you really claim that your dog is a Mayday dog if the Mayday dogs are 6-7-8 generations back -- and since those generations your dog has been scatterbred???


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

No.. you look at your 7 gen... what ever dog appears most is the what "bloodline" you have and what ever that dog is made up of is what your dog is down from  unless off course its a pure Jocko/redboy/bolio from heavy inbred decendents of Mayday and Lukane then of course yes those would be Mayday bred dogs... some would say Mayday Lukane bred dogs, :hammer: okay whatever its both the same as Lukane is an inbred tants dog and son of Mayday,http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=2433. You would say this is a Tants(Jocko/Redboy) bred dog outcrossed with bolio/sorrels. Here look at this dog its sired by mayday but its clearly a 3/4 bolio 1/4 Jocko/Redboy(Tants) out cross, here you would have a Tants outcrossed Bolio dog or Bolio outcrossed or with or having Tants outwash.. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [127427] :: *PACHACAMAC KENNEL'S HAPPY 3XW**

Heres a great brood that Bailey snagged up, she is Jocko outcrossed with redboy/lonzo ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [38648] :: BAILEY'S ELVIRA

You could say Jocko with redboy, lonzo outcrosses..*


----------



## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Okay, I know this is going to sound stupid, LOL, but where do you see the Bolio or Sorrel?? I'm trying to learn, honest, but it's slow-going. This is like a whole nother language to me.


----------



## SECD (Jan 17, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> Okay, I know this is going to sound stupid, LOL, but where do you see the Bolio or Sorrel?? I'm trying to learn, honest, but it's slow-going. This is like a whole nother language to me.


Click on any Patirck named dog and Bolio will apear, Pat in AZ ran the Bolio stuff http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=127427


----------



## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

So, Patrick is the breeder, bolio the bloodline then?


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

THe bottom half of Mayday is Bolio, inbred Bolio dogs like tonka and others like Crash and Tuffy, Bolio and tombstone became one line as Jocko/redboy became one line similar fashion, the blood works so well together why fix whats broken.. so to speak. SO see my own associations are coming through in my writting, because I call tombstone/bolio, simply bolio but really maybe it should be tombstone as that is where most of the stock is at... Hmm. There are other Bolio dogs out there without patricks but its hard for someone not to cross out to patrick just like for someone pushin pure chavis is gonna have to settle on a redboy outcross or infusion sooner or later becasue the two have become one.. Which is why most call it Tombstone/bolio as they do Jocko/Redboy; I reckon. As far as the Sorrells goes, Sorrells is in the bottom half of the bottom half Chisel is half Sorrells


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

except here: ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [11] :: PATRICK'S TOMBSTONE

LOL


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

You can see that Patrick gobbled up most of the stuff and used what he didn't own.
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: OFFSPRING :: INDIAN BOLIO :: [43]


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [397] :: TANT'S YELLOW (6XW)

a lil more redboy than jocko, so would be redboy jocko. actually this is a tudors, colby dog with OFRN out if you look at what the dogs are made up of. Tudors colby crosses in the pure were as good as it gets in many cases thus the Jocko/Redboy 

As for the Tombstone and Bolio both are Tudors Heinzel dogs of course colby lightner being the source of the other two dog mens inter breedings, see a similarity here?

its the key crosses between Tudors, Colby, and various game bred OFRN lines Nebbeltts bred dogs, Lightner, Hemphill/wilder etc, that have built and intertwined as one "line" so to speak.. The APBTs are technically supposed to be named after the owners last name and then dog name, just for such purposes to keep up with who did what with what dog and what "line". Tants is Jocko/redboy although he had midnight cowboy dogs and Jocko/Eli type crosses as well  thats not what done well nor is what the name is known for. if you notice lines that I speak of are known by the crosses of the dogs, otherwise we'd be saying a tudors/colby bred dog with lightner and klaus outs, but that wouldnt be accurate because each dog is only 6.25 percent of those type dogs. But what if all the dogs in the 4th are really stacked one dog, and repeated with other chs, well then you have a TRUE line such as Colby, Norrod, and Hammonds; Tants and Patrick are also on this track JMO that they aren't there yet.


----------



## Padlock (Nov 19, 2010)

in the simplest analogy one needs to refer
to certain dogs in order to be able to talk dogs.
those dogs are a benchmark to be able to know and
understand pedigrees.most people read pedigrees from 
left to right when in fact they should be read from right to 
left. you can't get to where you're going unless you know where
you've been.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

well put^^^^^^^^^^:clap:


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Hey, Firehazard, if you have the time tell me how you would describe my deceased pup Jack using the 7 gen. stats and the 4 gen. online peds (which I can't pull up due to my stupidity with modern computers LOL!) He has Boudreaux mentioned 12 times, Loposay 10 times, Teal 10 times, and Mayfield 9 times in the 7th gen. There's a handful of Tudor, Carver, and Long in there as well. His sire was Tant's Bruiser and his dam was Rose's Shot Revenge. No hurry, just curious as to how he would be defined Thanks my friend!!!


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [142136] :: MADHOUSE'S HORSE

I consider bruiser to be a Jocko/redboy/honeybunch dog.. and Roses shot revenge to be a hank/redboy/jeep bred dog ... This dog is Jocko/Redboy, Honeybunch dog with Hank as an out.. IMO, to keep it simple. OR a redboy/jeep dog with hank and jocko outs depending on your flavor.  I see honeybunch when I see jeep, so just my spin.


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks FH, that was remarkably quick and efficient! How are you with taxes?


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

already got my check in the mail


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I work real hard, I get everything done as efficient and timely as possible, then play the rest of the day.. . Employers just love me.. LOL


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I do have one question though FH. In my peds, and in an old gazette's page featuring Jack's breeding, Tant's Honey Bee was sired by Crenshaw's Ch Slater and NOT B. and Singleton's Snake as the online peds would suggest!! More confusion among peds or what? The sire and dam are still the same in the 4th gen. though, so was the dog's ownership changed?


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

I have allways had jeep/redboy dogs, i will take the junkyard dogs ped as an example. 
I say she is jeep/redboy as that is what other people understand who are fanciers. In reality she is realy a Mistrals dog as that is nearly enrirely what her first five gens are made out of, if i mentioned that name to 90% of people overseas they wouldnt have the faintest clue what i was talking about. Evenif i mentioned Kittens Gr CH Tank most wouldnt have a clue so its just smarter to say Tanks father Jeep and everyone can relate.

My opinion is the first four gens are the most important but as i dont breed it doesnt bother me lol. They are just names and the proof is allways in the dog not the paper with its name on it. BYB and peddlers allways tryto fool people with their bloodline bullshit. There is a s..tton of byb over here that simply drop the jeep name as its all they know, go back enough in any jeep/redboy dogs peds and you will find Colby dogs and some OFRN , so you also see people advertising there dogs as jeep/redboy/colby/ofrn. Its that long ago since those dogs were in the ped it doesnt realy matter any more. It comes down to putting it in terms people can understand.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

^^ thats what Pad was saying by, "we have to go by the dog".. I think thats what hes saying. It is good to know however that Jeep was a colby/nebletts X Tudors Dibo (JMO Hubbards bounce throws original strain into that Eli which inbred Dibo with Bounce thrown in to fill the gaps) Redboy was pure colby/nebletts outcrossed with corvino/tudors. So yeah in general people don't know wtf the difference is so the dog and who owned the dog and who bred the dog is whats important for the most part, right? WHICH is why the two work well together and people like Garrett know that. OF course they have been crossing redboy with jeep as long as they have with Jocko its just that name of the dog again, crenshaw gator for example which is a prime example of a good jeep/redboy dog that has many a dog pointing to him. I like what your saying about the first 4, for any given person really thats what matters, but we should add down from such and such type/bred dogs. JMO of breed ethics, people who have any source of sense know of the american lines and the ofrn lines, more and more of our dogs are going to other countries and are gonna make the future bloodlines named with hispanic and ukrainian or russian names.. LOL


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> I do have one question though FH. In my peds, and in an old gazette's page featuring Jack's breeding, Tant's Honey Bee was sired by Crenshaw's Ch Slater and NOT B. and Singleton's Snake as the online peds would suggest!! More confusion among peds or what? The sire and dam are still the same in the 4th gen. though, so was the dog's ownership changed?


No real confusion, ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [504] :: BRABHAM & SINGLETONS' SNAKE

Breeder, owner both listed as J. Crenshaw. Many dogs have mulitple "owners" so to speak. Partnered dogs if you will. You can just keep all that fire in your yard gotta space out and make room for prospects.. ya know?


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Thank you sir Johnny on the spot once again!


----------

