# heath testing, how accurate is it?



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I did a lot of research when I decided to start health testing and talked to my vets and other breeders and it seems I have found some disturbing patterns and then experienced it first hand. 
The only true accurate way to health test is the DNA tests and unfortunately there are only a few type of tests that are done with DNA.
When we talk about health tests like x-rays they are only as good as the vet who took the films. I have seen it time and time again vets that botched the x-rays and did not take them correctly or at the wrong angles. Then they fail at OFA but when the films are taken again by someone who knows how to really take them they can read totally different and pass just fine. The same thing with blood tests like the T-4 test, dogs can have bad days where there could be many reasons the test was low or high, doing the test again even a 3rd time to be sure can really save you the headache of a misdiagnosis.
Cardiac evaluations can also be done wrong by the vet or the vet could be unethical as in my case and now I will share my story.....

I took Siren shortly after the pups were born to get her OFA cardiac at the AKC cluster show and the vet there told me she had a grade 3 heart murmur. This floored me as my vet had never picked up a heart abnormality and to say she had a grade 3 and a valve issue did not seem right. She did say lactating females can pop up with a murmur and to test after they dry up and it normally goes away. Normally they only have a 1 or 2 grade but at a grade 3 and the fact she said she heard a valve issue worried me. I had already bred the pups but I had a total work up done before breeding and now wanted to get the OFA's done now that she was old enough. She had not had any issues in her working ability to suggest a grade 3 heart murmur and the vet had looked at her right before she was bred and did not hear any murmur. So the vet had asked me if I was local before she had told me what she heard and I said yes. Then she told me about the defect she heard and that I need to go to her cardiac clinic to get a doppler, ultrasound, EKG, and other tests done. It was going to cost about 800 but I didn't mind the expense I just want to make sure she would be alright. Then I had the litter to worry about and how this was going to effect them. So Siren failed her OFA cardiac under that vet.

I decided to look back on sirens records and talk to her vet and had her rechecked for a second opinion. It turns out basically that vet was trying to take me for a ride! After getting a second opinion from another cardiac vet and a follow up with my regular vet Siren is free and clear of any heat problems or murmurs. This Vet that told me to come and get 800 dollars worth of tests works for VCA a large vet group that I use to work for when I was a tech. I always talk about the vets from there getting paid on commission and why I thought they were very unethical and would bully or scare owners into doing more tests and spending money when they did not need to. Well that is what this vet was trying to do to me and the fact she asked if I was local should have been my first red flag, the second was she worked for VCA. Now I worried for several weeks before I saw the other specialist thinking she could drop dead after any work out and to find out the vet was nothing but a con really peed me off!

Siren was cleared by the other cardiac vet and then again by my vet last week when I took all the puppies in to get their hearts checked. Every puppy and including Siren had perfect healthy hearts. 

This is just an example of a health test gone bad by a greedy vet but it also happens with the best intentions! Some vets or techs just do not know how to do the tests properly. 

Health testing is extremely important but again they are only as good as the people doing them. My advice is to find a breeder vet or trusted vet to do your health tests and if something comes back wrong or not passing it is important to do it again and get a second or third opinion. Had I believed this vet I would have wasted hundreds possibly thousands of dollars on nothing more than a greedy vet. I knew there was no way a dog with a grade 3 could do what she does and not show signs or have a defect the way the vet described it. Several of the other breeders I talked to at some point had similar stories to share with me. I know and work with some big breeders of various breeds at our AKC club and they all have horror stories of health tests gone wrong and I wanted to share this story so someone else does not have to go through the same thing. I know many people want to health test but remember if you get a bad result it is worth doing it over to make sure it was not a mistake. Health testing is not a guarnetee the pups will not have that defect but can elminate that dog from the breeding stock. Again health testing is very important just make sure it is getting done correctly!


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

it seems more and more people are doing Penn hip tests rather than ofa. This is something i need to look more into.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I wish there were more qualified veterinarians in my area to do the Pennhip rather than the OFA. That is the really big difference between the two for ME is that there are only certain vets that have been trained to do the tests for the Pennhip where any old vet can Xray for the OFA.


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## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

Thank you for posting this Lisa, is full of useful info


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I heard less complaints about penn hip than OFA's so something to consider. Siren's hips looked great when we did them at 12 months and now I am thinking of doing Penn hip and not OFA when we go to take the official films. I did hear of one case of them doing it wrong so with any test I would get a second opinion if they think they found an issue.

That is the problem not any old vet can do OFA films they have to be done at certian angles and done correctly or they will be worthless, watch who you go to and ask other breeders who they use.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Any old vet "can" do them. The OFA will accept x rays from any vet, but whether they're done right or not... well that's really up to the experience of your veterinarian lmbo


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Oh great! Since I've joined this forum AFTER my dogs passed away, I have read some very disturbing stories about vets. It has made me question the care my dogs were under when they really needed it. My Cuda's heart was listened to and everything for years and years with no one saying he had a murmur, then one day thru another vet at the same place, he had one. I think my trust of any vet has just about gone out the window. Good post Lisa, but not very comforting


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I think it is very hard to find a good vet especially if you know very little about veterinarian medicine. Many vets can fool you with a lot of BS that sounds good but finding a good vet can be hard so if you do not know what to look for ask other others who they use and if they like them. I would suggest finding a good breeder (any breed) and see who they trust. Word of mouth is very important!


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

Here is the way I see it:

Most reputable breeders now are only using DVM Cardiologists for heart checks now as the average vet does not know what to listen for, unless the murmur is obvious. The last 3 OFA cardios I had done I used a Cardiologist for that very reason. 

Regarding hips, many people are going the way of Pennhip because their dogs won't pass a standard OFA xray. There is no failing Pennhip. I have seen lots of breeders using dogs that have 60/70 and up scores, shame on them. 

Any good vet that has done a lot of xrays can position the hips right, Just make sure you go to a vet that has done a lot of hip xrays. It is way easier and cheaper to find a vet that can do good xrays rather than Pennhip. For example in my state there are at least 10 vets that do good xrays, but only one or two that do Pennhip. Pennhip costs around $400, whereas a hip xray, less than $100. Also, pennhip does not a have a public database, so breeders can mislead people. 

Also, make sure that the breeder you are buying from is really health-testing not just saying they check them. OFA's online database is searchable to the public. Over the years, I have heard people say " I health test, I just don't send them into OFA". That is a lie, as it is very cheap to send them in. For instance: why would you pay 100 bucks to get the test done, and then not pay the 30 to send them in? 

And people ...just because a dog is supposedly gamebred, does not mean they are healthier, and don't need to test, because there are very few gamedog breeders doing any health testing...I can not think of one. 

You see a lot of people justifying higher prices because they are supposedly health testing...but don't beleive it until you check their results.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Howard brings up great points and I know many breeders who will fudge health testing on dogs and even health test a dog they will know that will pass and say it is the dog they are breeding. I see that a lot in the AKC world and it is really shame they will go to great lengths to hide problems in the lines.
It is a shame that most Gamebred dogs have little or no health testing and I do not think I know of a breeder either that has multiple generations health tested.

I thought you could only get checked by a DVM cardiologists for them to enter it in the OFA Data base? I do not think you can go to just any vet to get that done. The first vet I saw was at a heart clinic at our cluster show but when I went in for a second opinion I went to a cardiologists office then followed by my regular vet. It is way cheaper to go to a clinic I wish we had more of them out here.

Hopefully this will help those who want to health test do it the right way and find good vets to help you through the process. Finding clinics hosted by dog shows or clubs is a great way to save money because they offer tests at a lower cost than you can normally get them. Here AKC is really huge I have to check the AKC premiums when they come out for clinics but if UKC is big in your area you might find them there too.


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## SouthernMystery (Feb 20, 2011)

This is very educational and interesting. How can I find if any vets in my area does pennship testing?


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

You can call their offices and ask them if they do. They should be pretty helpful.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

is there anythign we should be asking to see if we want to get our dogs tested? is there any certifiicate the vets get when getting qualified to do these or will they all say they can? Any way to tell they really know what they are doing? We have a good vet but honestly I trust his judgement if he says he can do something I have no way of knowing if he cant. We got took by one vet for some minor tests that werent needed cost us a $100 extra for nothing but to be out like what you said $800-$1000 for nothing that would be horrible. Im in canada too so dont know if things are done differently up here or the same? i would assume the same , are we able to call someone and see what vets in our area are qualified? been reading alot about them we want to get luna tested when she is old enough { she just turned 1 so have a bit} but seems like alot of money to be out on if its done wrong.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

The best thing to do is to ask breeders of any breed who does their films. Word of mouth is everything IMO. Sure a lot of vets will say they do penn hip or OFA but finding out if they are good is done with word of mouth.


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## Padlock (Nov 19, 2010)

I've been really trying to open eyes about the fact most doctors and vets offices prey on owners with soft hearts, and lack of knowledge into dropping money on botched and tainted testing of pets across the board. money corrupts everyone, and in this line of work it's ten fold, as pets are a disposable commodity and nothing more. there is no money in health, and there is no money in cures, all the money is made on the comeback and managing the issue...and thats the sad real truth. it's akin to car service stations that do routine maintenance and loosen the crank pulley bolt on your car to get you back in 2-3 months with a major repair service. trust is earned and should never be given, always go on referrals and even then there are no guarantees.


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## ARK_Kennel (Jun 5, 2008)

I have used OFA and never had a problem. There is no special certification a Vet needs other then a licence to practice Vet Med and the position used to evaluate the hips is a standard position taught in Vet Med school. The Vet taking the x-ray does not rate the x-ray. It is sent to OFA and evaluated by 3 different radiologist that have been randomly selected from a pool of 20 to 25 board-certified consulting veterinary radiologists throughout the USA in private practice and academia. If the films are not taken properly they are sent back the the original vet explaining why they need to be retaken.

Here is a link to their site explaining the entire process.

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Pennhip is done solely by Pennsylvania University and those accredited by them. My vet isn't a fan as he doesn't believe in their certifications or the need to buy their equipment. He has a Fe other opinions about it.
yes OFA seems tougher but more legit imo. Ya some vets can be hard to work with or shady, that's unfortunate. I suggest looking around and researching ur vet and their history.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I believe health testing is only as good as the radiologist performing the test. If the radiologist is not very skilled in his area and does not look the films over thoroughly things can be missed and basically the test is no good. It's just like when a human goes through several X-ray /CT exams looking for tumors or other abnormalities where something is missed by one radiologist but was caught by another. Imaging is of great use in the medical world and is very accurate when the radiologist is skilled and thorough in his area of expertise.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

ARK_Kennel said:


> I have used OFA and never had a problem. There is no special certification a Vet needs other then a licence to practice Vet Med and the position used to evaluate the hips is a standard position taught in Vet Med school. The Vet taking the x-ray does not rate the x-ray. It is sent to OFA and evaluated by 3 different radiologist that have been randomly selected from a pool of 20 to 25 board-certified consulting veterinary radiologists throughout the USA in private practice and academia. If the films are not taken properly they are sent back the the original vet explaining why they need to be retaken.
> 
> Here is a link to their site explaining the entire process.
> 
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia





Diesel Dogs said:


> Pennhip is done solely by Pennsylvania University and those accredited by them. My vet isn't a fan as he doesn't believe in their certifications or the need to buy their equipment. He has a Fe other opinions about it.
> yes OFA seems tougher but more legit imo. Ya some vets can be hard to work with or shady, that's unfortunate. I suggest looking around and researching ur vet and their history.


OFA and Penn hip can be messed up by bad x-rays and it happens all the time. You really have to find someone who can take good x-rays to get the real score on your dog. The other bad thing is if a dog fails it does not have to be recored on the OFA data base, also some unethical breeders will send in x-rays of other dogs pretending to be the one who gets the rating. Again they are only as good as the people taking the films and the breeders reporting them. While I think they are important they can be forged and also not done correctly. Sad but happens more than you think.


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## Papi_ (Aug 30, 2011)

Verry helpfull topic !

I wish i knew this topic before it would save me a lot off Trouble that i had recently .

Great looking out there .


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## kaney2021 (Sep 16, 2011)

*Kavinace*

Every living creature has the idea to maintain itself in a healthy condition. Primary to this function is the quality of the foods they eat to achieve this top level of physical necessity. The old saying "you are what you eat" is very true as there is no other way to absorb the necessary nutrients than through consumption of the proper foodstuffs.

Kavinace Kavinace


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