# General debate on outcrosses.



## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

So I know this might have been covered before. And so that I get this straight, the initial bulldog was bred for bull baiting and when bull baiting was made illegal, they were crossed with smaller terriers to be better suited for box work?
If so, I know that many breeds were created by mixing other breed that possess a characteristic or trait that allowed it to perform it's job or task better. 
Also, when the breed isbred for performance, not show, performance is more important. 

So my question would be, if you were to outcross a APBT with something larger to perform a specific task or line of work, yet still bred gameness( loosely used in terms of never backing down and never giving up) thru things such as weight pulling, hog hunting, or even spring pole work. What would you Consider it? I know people tend to ruin breed standards by thinking bigger is better but if it was actually line bred to consistency, yet retain it's gameness an working ability, would u consider it a different breed or just a larger gamebred pit ? 
I wanted some different opinions and I'm not here to stir anything up


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

And again I mean this in terms of working capability or gameness since there are many variances in looks of a pit.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

If you're outcross to a different breed then you're creating a different breed. But I know that there are dogs that are mixed between two different breeds for purposes, for example Bandog or bandogge. It's a breed that is a cross between an Amerian bulldog and a mastiff that is bred for a purpose. It's bred for guard work. 

I don't think there is anything "wrong" with outcrossing to a different breed as long as you don't hang papers and claim that it's a purebred. But if you're trying to breed a certain trait in for certain work, then I think it's okay. But that's just me


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## Hagen (Nov 26, 2009)

It's acceptable to make a one-time outcross in a line, if the line lacks in some things and you need fresh blood. But the F1 generation is often bad. If you continue the linebreeding the next generations will be better.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

Hagen said:


> It's acceptable to make a one-time outcross in a line, if the line lacks in some things and you need fresh blood. But the F1 generation is often bad. If you continue the linebreeding the next generations will be better.


Are you saying it's okay to outcross to a different breed? And then use that mutt to continue linebreeding and still register them as the original breed?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Out Crossing with other bloodline's within the same breed is ok but you better know your traits and what your trying to accomplish before doing so. Line breeding and Inbreeding within a breed is great to tighten up your lines but again should be done with caution and purpose. Out Breeding is a big no no IMO Out Breeding creates mutt's. Unless your trying to establish a new breed of dogs you shouldn't be out Breeding. One breed has nothing to offer another breed. Gameness cannot be proven through working sports. Gameness is a trait that only refer's to box dogs. It's something that needs to be tested and proven in the box. You can't prove a dog game through WP or shutz, there is only one true way to prove gameness. If your not breeding for the box gameness is not something you need to be concerned with.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Outcross doesnt mean other breed, it mean outcrossing the blood, some outcrossing goes well with others not so much.

Breeding with another breed is crossbreeding/mongral/mutt.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Outcross doesnt mean other breed, it mean outcrossing the blood, some outcrossing goes well with others not so much.
> 
> Breeding with another breed is crossbreeding/mongral/mutt.


And I think that outcrossing is necessary occasionally to introduce new blood into a line, but the way that he worded his first post he was meaning outcrossing as crossbreeding. When he referred to the first bull dogs, and then referred to them being bred with other terriers.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I'm certain that people bred dogs for the sport of bull baiting. However, the original pit bull, or a varient thereof ( possibly going by other names according to what century or geographical location one speaks of) was fighting dogs and other beasts long before bull baiting became popular. FWIW


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

MISSAPBT said:


> Outcross doesnt mean other breed, it mean outcrossing the blood, some outcrossing goes well with others not so much.
> 
> Breeding with another breed is crossbreeding/mongral/mutt.


My Mistake your right typo on my end ... here is a link for anyone who want's to know about various types of breeding methods.

Types of Breeding: Inbreeding, Line-breeding, outcrossing, outbreeding


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Wingman said:


> And I think that outcrossing is necessary occasionally to introduce new blood into a line, but the way that he worded his first post he was meaning outcrossing as crossbreeding. When he referred to the first bull dogs, and then referred to them being bred with other terriers.


Yeah definatly nessisarry or your just going to have too heavy inbred dogs.

Ohhhh whoops i should read properly.
In that case, its wrong, with larger dogs the cur out/quit very quickly, in this case bigger is not better for working. It is better to be working smaller dogs as they dont tired, give up, cur as quickly from exaustion. just like having a small running man and a big giant running man, that little dude is going to go alot further


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cool. I know there has been prior crosses before the breed standard came about and breeders and dog men released pedigrees. I.e who's to say blues came from blue mastiffs and not blue pauls. These men were looking on ways to improve their line.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

That brings up where did blue pauls come from??? Weird how all of a suddent there were "blue" apbts.
Yes its a dialated black, but how does that dialation come about? Why wernt there more gamebred dogs that colour if its 'pure'


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Another example is a bull terrier and mini bull terrier. What if this pertained to apbt's. Vica versa including larger variances. I know it's similar to xl bullies but I'm curious to being able to keep gameness and working capabilities.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Getting any biger will only fail you if you are wanting to keep gameness and working ability. eg. Bullies (not bulllybashing) but these things have heaps less drive then the apbt.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, I know a lot is screwed up with bullies and I'm not trying to ask if game bred bullies are possible but is it possible to create larger dogs for a purpose and retain gameness and working abilities yet still b a pit. Or would u consider it a diff breed


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

If you start to cross the gamebred apbt with another breed of dog your are creating a mutt.
IMO more trouble than its worth, it would take years and years of culling and testing for all the things you are wanting.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

In order to acheive those sized I'd say that you'd have to breed something else in. So yes I could consider a different breed. Now I do beleive it would be possible to breed a larger bully breed that has working ability, but it more than likely won't be able to work as hard as a smaller dog...now I'm sure there are larger bully dogs that can work hard, but I'm saying gen and gen and smaller bred dog will produce more gamey dogs. In my opinon...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Mach0 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I know a lot is screwed up with bullies and I'm not trying to ask if game bred bullies are possible but is it possible to create larger dogs for a purpose and retain gameness and working abilities yet still b a pit. Or would u consider it a diff breed


Well I am sure it would be possible look at mayday and baracudda 70+ box dogs however dog men don't breed for size or color and they didn't consistently aim to produce large bulldogs Maydays size. The line itself just happens to throw larger dogs. Dog man bred for Gameness. But Typically bulldogs don't get over 50+ pounds many of them are 30-45 lbs ideally. But every now and again you have dogs like mayday who despite their size proved to be game and good producer's. I personally like em within the 40's and low 50's. IMO size should never even be on the agenda when breeding working dogs. Athletic ability and sound structure yes but not a specific size dog. JMO

History show's it's been done

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=560


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

The blue gene is a mutant gene. I breed snakes and everyones always looking for the next wild caught hypo(dilutes black) or albino(No black pigment) to show up. Over the last 20 years they've shown up in pretty much every species. When the special one is found, they breed them like crazy because it's something different and makes alot of money.
Look at albinoism in people. It's rare but the mutation does show up. We just don't have albino men and women breeding to each other to make it more common. All dog species have the ability to have that mistake happen. Nature changes a few dna sequences on everthing that is born, just in case that;s the next big adaptation in evolution. Everyone acts like blues were outcrossed, but I'm sure have showed up forever. We just didn't breed them, cuz I assume the first ones were Curs so everyone assumed they were bad dogs.

















The above photo is a normal wild caught, 15 years ago someone caught one with lighter black and it has since been reduced to gray in the bottom photo. Note the red without black turned to oranges. These things pop up all the time.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

fishinrob said:


> The blue gene is a mutant gene. I breed snakes and everyones always looking for the next wild caught hypo(dilutes black) or albino(No black pigment) to show up. Over the last 20 years they've shown up in pretty much every species. When the special one is found, they breed them like crazy because it's something different and makes alot of money.
> Look at albinoism in people. It's rare but the mutation does show up. We just don't have albino men and women breeding to each other to make it more common. All dog species have the ability to have that mistake happen. Nature changes a few dna sequences on everthing that is born, just in case that;s the next big adaptation in evolution. Everyone acts like blues were outcrossed, but I'm sure have showed up forever. We just didn't breed them, cuz I assume the first ones were Curs so everyone assumed they were bad dogs.
> 
> 
> ...


I hope that "Red then black, venom lack...Red then yellow, kill the fellow" still holds true with differentiating between corals and kings LOL!!!!


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

I want the red and balck one, my fav colours!!!


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I don't know for sure but if you wanted a tuff, ready large dog there are breeds that are plenty good. What about the presa canario.
Blue gene has been around, Probably coming from blue paul. Joe Corvino had a number of dogs with the word blue in their names. By Blue and BLue moon, Blue monday also. Now I wasn't around and they might have not been dark in the blue color but I am sure that the color was present.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Ok so it's easier to say that the larger the dog, the less intensity and endurance. I happen to like bigger dogs. I feel that my dogs should reflect me. I'm 6'1 240 and in decent shape. I want my dogs to be as active as I am. I love the look of a not overly done bully but I like the characteristics of a game dog. Now I'm not looking to start a breed nor go off topic. I just really wanted to know what are some opinions on creating a larger gamebred pitbull( whether possible or not) by outcrossing and linebreeding capable of performing work. And if you considered it a pit or not.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

I think your question has been answered. If you bring in a different BREED into the APBT line then it's a different BREED of dog. So it wouldn't be a "PIT" it would be a "pit type" dog.

And as far as producing a larger working dog, sure you can work a larger dog, BUT it's going to get tired out faster, it has to haul around more weight, more mass. And how do you determine if a dog is game if you're not putting it into the box? Sure you could produce a larger dog that is capable of pulling a sled full of weight, but you'll never kow if the dog is truly game or not...


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

If it was crossed with another breed it wouldn't be considered a pit.

There are some larger lines and lines that throw bigger dogs. I think people who hog hunt sometimes have bigger APBT's. So you could just get a larger APBT from game lines.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Mach0, you sound like you are wanting a catchweight dog.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Here you go bandogs by someone who knows bandogs.
Our Dogs - Chimera Kennels


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Wingman said:


> I think your question has been answered. If you bring in a different BREED into the APBT line then it's a different BREED of dog. So it wouldn't be a "PIT" it would be a "pit type" dog.
> 
> And as far as producing a larger working dog, sure you can work a larger dog, BUT it's going to get tired out faster, it has to haul around more weight, more mass. And how do you determine if a dog is game if you're not putting it into the box? Sure you could produce a larger dog that is capable of pulling a sled full of weight, but you'll never kow if the dog is truly game or not...


Yea I know 
I got it but I wasnt sure if there was confusion or not since i made reference to blue dogs. When the breed was in the making, I know there was out crosses before but since then it hasn't . 
Since the breed standard has been establish, I can safely say that any outcrosses to better suit your needs, testing game or not, is no longer a apbt but a mutt. If you want to create a breed of it , it takes time and work. 


aimee235 said:


> If it was crossed with another breed it wouldn't be considered a pit.
> 
> There are some larger lines and lines that throw bigger dogs. I think people who hog hunt sometimes have bigger APBT's. So you could just get a larger APBT from game lines.


I like that idea 
Maybe my next boy :^]


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

Yes it can be done, but I would shoot for 70-75 pounds max. I always compare it to boxers. The perfect mix of power and stamina is the middleweights. The lesser weight classes go on hard for 12 rounds but usually go to scorecards. Heavyweights thrill the crowd with the big knockouts, but tend to slow mid fight to a very sluggish pace.
Another comparison would be cornerbacks, linebackers and defensive lineman. You want Ray Lewis!!!! You can't have a 300 pound Ray Lewis.
Lions Gate kennels has nice athletic dogs that have some original bully in their peds, but are the staff/gamebred bully style. Very Athletic dogs with no other mix dogs in the blood . Start there and get some good game dogs and go from there. Or just be patient as some true game breeders throw off the oddball bigger dog and use these. You take your bigger dogs in the future and win matches, then people will consider them APBT's no matter if you have the odd bully style beginning. Winning proves everything!!!!


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

What are you classing as big Mach0?? what weight range?
My boy is 70lbs that is quite big for a apbt but his liniage is not big, his littermate was a wee little 40lbs thing. i dont no if he throws big dogs as he has never been bred. My little girl wears him out pretty quickly.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Mach0, maybe the Castillo bloodline is more your flavor. They have their own website, so check it out Not the worst dogs I've ever seen.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

I wasn't trying to turn this into the type of dog I like or looking for. Just more on outcrosses, which has been covered. 
I have two dogs which serve well as pets but have enough energy and drive to keep up with me  and they love working out with me. 

On the other hand, the weight I'd prefer has to depend on height. My male Now is 18 inches tall and 65 lbs pretty conditioned. I don't like the look of French mastiffs or neo mastiffs that much so I would have to stay with a dog with decent structure and not overdone. The largest In weightfor a dog that height I would go is 75 lbs. But no lazy dog lol. 
But again, not the direction of the thread I wanted to go.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Mach0 said:


> I wasn't trying to turn this into the type of dog I like or looking for. Just more on outcrosses, which has been covered.
> I have two dogs which serve well as pets but have enough energy and drive to keep up with me  and they love working out with me.
> 
> On the other hand, the weight I'd prefer has to depend on height. My male Now is 18 inches tall and 65 lbs pretty conditioned. I don't like the look of French mastiffs or neo mastiffs that much so I would have to stay with a dog with decent structure and not overdone. The largest In weightfor a dog that height I would go is 75 lbs. But no lazy dog lol.
> But again, not the direction of the thread I wanted to go.


Mach0 I think you have been given a lot of great info. It's important to know that with any breed you choose size should never be a priority in a breeder's program. And you don't need to Out breed to achieve a larger game bred dog. What you need to look at is bloodlines and the dogs behind the bloodlines within a breed. My pup is a heavy bred mayday pup as I stated earlier Mayday was a game dog and a great producer he was also a catchweight dog 75 lbs which is on the larger side for a bulldog. Dogs who come down from him tend to be on the larger side of the apbt the bloodline is just known to throw freakish larger dogs. Not all the dogs from this bloodline will be as big as Mayday but they tend to be 55+ full grown unless they are out crossed with another bloodline to bring down the size of the off spring. Again I do not like Out Breeding and creating mutt's. If you want a larger bred APBT game bred dog that is still true to the breed with working ability look for a bloodline that tends to produce larger dogs Out breeding for a larger size dog is not the way to go plenty of larger breeds out there to go with if you can't find it with a bulldog.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

You are right. I agree that size should not be part of a breeding program unless breed for a specific task. Thus creating another breed- if outcrossed. 
I wasnt talking about What I am looking for. I have no purpose In a dog as such. Yea I like bigger dogs, but I don't like freakazoids lol. But again it was for a small debate. I know Many dogs were in the smelting pot as with the creation of any breed, so I was curious to see what many ppl thought.

On the other side, a friend of mine has MAyday line dog. He's 85 lbs. He could use trimming but still be 75+ easily. 


Sadie said:


> Mach0 I think you have been given a lot of great info. It's important to know that with any breed you choose size should never be a priority in a breeder's program. And you don't need to Out breed to achieve a larger game bred dog. What you need to look at is bloodlines and the dogs behind the bloodlines within a breed. My pup is a heavy bred mayday pup as I stated earlier Mayday was a game dog and a great producer he was also a catchweight dog 75 lbs which is on the larger side for a bulldog. Dogs who come down from him tend to be on the larger side of the apbt the bloodline is just known to throw freakish larger dogs. Not all the dogs from this bloodline will be as big as Mayday but they tend to be 55+ full grown unless they are out crossed with another bloodline to bring down the size of the off spring. Again I do not like Out Breeding and creating mutt's. If you want a larger bred APBT game bred dog that is still true to the breed with working ability look for a bloodline that tends to produce larger dogs Out breeding for a larger size dog is not the way to go plenty of larger breeds out there to go with if you can't find it with a bulldog.


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## Hagen (Nov 26, 2009)

Wingman said:


> Are you saying it's okay to outcross to a different breed? And then use that mutt to continue linebreeding and still register them as the original breed?


Not register them.
I'm talking about working dogs - linebreeding, and what is acceptable to become good workers. 
Papers are nothing.
Do you think all ADBA-pedigrees are the truth?


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## Hagen (Nov 26, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> If you start to cross the gamebred apbt with another breed of dog your are creating a mutt.
> IMO more trouble than its worth, it would take years and years of culling and testing for all the things you are wanting.


But it's often done.
There is a firm where you can send a little blood of your Bulldog, and they test it about the genetic sameness with some other breeds. You would be surprised what they find in your dog.
Outcrossing was often done, but rarely spoken.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Hagen said:


> But it's often done.
> There is a firm where you can send a little blood of your Bulldog, and they test it about the genetic sameness with some other breeds. You would be surprised what they find in your dog.
> Outcrossing was often done, but rarely spoken.


Very True. What I do find Interesting, is before the adba came about , there was no way to say what was in the blood other than seeing a dog do better in the box. So before an actual standard came about, I'm sure there were crosses . Even after, there had to be paper hanging. Strictly performance based. Anything to give the competitive edge. That's what I was leaning towards but being bred bigger than before for a specific job Instead of the box. And what you would consider it


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Mach0 said:


> Very True. What I do find Interesting, is before the adba came about , there was no way to say what was in the blood other than seeing a dog do better in the box.


Not True Dog man have been keeping hand written pedigree's on their dogs for years even before the registries. Many of them don't even register their dogs with any association they keep hand written pedigree's for their dogs and what they breed and keep on their yards. I personally know a few who do this now and won't pay a dime for the adba to tell them what's on their yards because they already know. Nothing wrong with hand written pedigree's if they are coming from reliable dog men/ breeder's. You just have to know who your dealing with.

HOWEVER if your going to be showing/competing with your dog your dog will need to be registered with an association to do so.

Paper's don't make the Dog's ... Dog's make the paper's if they don't live up to the pedigree the paper's are pretty much worthless anyway. JMO


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Very True as long as ppl are truthful. 
I'm curious as to pedigrees where the sire or dam is MIA and yet a bloodline can be formed. I know some of the most game dogs in the past were street dogs. Not trying to discredit anyone or anything but it can be hard to determine something that long ago. I wonder what will pop up in a DNA test. But that's a can of worms. 
I know I get confused at times since I see many different statements to what dogs were originally used in creating the breed.



Sadie said:


> Not True Dog man have been keeping hand written pedigree's on their dogs for years even before the registries. Many of them don't even register their dogs with any association they keep hand written pedigree's for their dogs and what they breed and keep on their yards. I personally know a few who do this now and won't pay a dime for the adba to tell them what's on their yards because they already know. Nothing wrong with hand written pedigree's if they are coming from reliable dog men/ breeder's. You just have to know who your dealing with.
> 
> HOWEVER if your going to be showing/competing with your dog your dog will need to be registered with an association to do so.
> 
> Paper's don't make the Dog's ... Dog's make the paper's if they don't live up to the pedigree the paper's are pretty much worthless anyway. JMO


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

But I would feel comfortable saying that there may have been outcrosses before . But now since the breed is established, any further outcross will not be a APBT but a pit type dog. 

Now what would be interesting is if they were able to keep gameness tonperform as close to their predecessor as possible. But that's a can of worms I wish not to open. 
So all in all I took away some key points

Btw the handwritten pedigree u made mention of is hilarious. The friend that has a dog consisting of mayday and another bloodline outcross mix , keeps a handwritten pedigree


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Mach0 said:


> So I know this might have been covered before. And so that I get this straight, the initial bulldog was bred for bull baiting and when bull baiting was made illegal, they were crossed with smaller terriers to be better suited for box work?
> If so, I know that many breeds were created by mixing other breed that possess a characteristic or trait that allowed it to perform it's job or task better.
> Also, when the breed isbred for performance, not show, performance is more important.
> 
> ...


I can tell you couple of things, to find a quality working mastiff specimen is extremely difficult. The true temperament of working mastinos was bred away from because in our society or this time of age such strong temperament is a liability just like it was done with the true old english bulldog. You can def find true working specimens around but for example crossing a 50 pound gamebred dog to a akc neapolitan would be very pointless. Not saying that this is what you want to do, but reallistically speaking it is very hard to find quality mastiff working specimens. Just the english mastiff alone is nothing compared to what it used to be, the doge de bordeaux is also watered down, the German mastiff, bullmastiff all these dogs have been watered down and basically bred by selection of looks rather than structure and working ability. Once again I don't want to generallize because I know some breeders still exist that challenge their breeding stock and go beyond the show world.

To simplify this, crossing a tightly bred gamegred dog to a big mastiff to adquire size and maybe more of a hunting instict could be the same as crossing a pit to an english bulldog. it's either hit or miss.. in one generation you will not achieve anything in my opinion, you would have to cross back and forth until you solidify the traits taht you are looking for and I doubt this can be done in one crossing. JUst look at what went into creating the Dogo Argentino...

If you are interested in looking a gamebred crosses to functional mastinos check out chimera kennels you will find some nice specimens


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I will also like to add that I was comparing an akc mastiff to an english bulldog because for the most part these dogs are plagued with orthopedic problems and they can't do what they were originally bred to do. It's not even the participants fault it is the judges that preffer these exagerated looking dogs. Last weekend i was at a AKC show and I saw an english mastiff that was amazing, tight waist very leggy and thin. This dog looked in amazing shape and looked quite functional, he did not even place instead a big droopy 250+ pound couch potatoe won the class..


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Good point. Never thought of it that way. I have to say Chimeras foundation male is impressive.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

As already said that would not be outcrossing... here is a great source with tons of info on breeding to help you out:
Encyclopedia of the American Pit Bull Terrier : HomePage

I want to comment on something else too...

in my opinion there would be no reason to do this type of breeding period. There are enough established working dogs that can do tasks and as for getting a bigger sized dog then you just simply go to another breed not mix. I think too many BYBs pull the "I did the breeding for working purposes card" so to speak. I don't like seeing the APBT ruined by people mixing. Just my opinion of course.

On another note it sounds like what you may be asking about are - "band dogs" or mastiff X bull breed mixes.


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## Hagen (Nov 26, 2009)

An outcross could be successful if both breeds are workers and were bred for nearly the same work.
Never breed a show dog with a worker!

In the last 3 years I'm very interested in hunting and hunting dogs. Specially Catch Dogs and Terrier. 
There are a lot of outcrosses that are fantastic workers.
...But also you have to cull a lot.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Great website. 
One thing I cant stress enough is that I wasnt looking to create a dog or ask advice on what dog will be my next dog. I have grown up around pits. Yes, the majority of them street dogs and some jeep crosses. Despite the negativity, I always knew them to be great family pets when treated/ trained correctly. I have had a few myself and loved them. Best dogs I've ever had.

Buttttttttt, all I really wanted was some out takes on ppl outcrossing to achieve something different- kind of like the dogo origins or bandogs or even bullies to some extent. And if they linebred to keep gameness , what would you consider it? However, I think i got some good arguments out of this.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

To me the APBT is the ultimate most versatile breed thus there is no need to mess with perfection so to speak.... so I do not believe in "cross breeding" them to other breeds at all.

However doing outcross breedings which is totally different is a good practice to bring new bloodlines in.... line breeding and inbreeding brings in consistency and type , but an outcross is needed at least periodically to keep lines healthier and help to get rid of specific faults or add other specific characteristics to the line. Neither breedings or genetics is an exact science at this point so their is always room for improvement within a line making an outcross a needed thing in my opinion. 2 of my girls are from an outcross breeding and I couldn't be happier. 

Is that more of the type of info you were looking for????

On another note there is nothing wrong with breeding a show typy dog to a working dog as long as both are bringing the qualities to the table that you are looking for. LOL FYI a lot of us who own pretty show dogs also work those dogs in other areas... A working dog with better structure will e able to work longer and better than one with crappy structure. A true working dog must be the total package to be the best at whatever it does....

~ In Pursuit O' Perfection....
Patch O' Pits


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Patch-O-Pits said:


> As already said that would not be outcrossing... here is a great source with tons of info on breeding to help you out:
> Encyclopedia of the American Pit Bull Terrier : HomePage
> 
> I want to comment on something else too...
> ...


Very Good Post Patches :goodpost: You don't out breed for a larger size dog you get another breed there are TON'S of them to choose from. Leave established breeds alone we don't need anymore mutt's running around. When you start breeding any and anything together you start creating unstable dogs responsible breeder's once again will never promote breeding for size and color they breed for purpose, function, and ability.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Patch-O-Pits said:


> To me the APBT is the ultimate most versatile breed thus there is no need to mess with perfection so to speak.... so I do not believe in "cross breeding" them to other breeds at all.
> 
> However doing outcross breedings which is totallly diferent is a good practice to bring new blodlines in.... line breeding and inbreeding brings in consistency and type , but an outcross is needed at least periodically to keep lines healthier and help to get rid of specific faults or add other specific characteristics to the line. 2 of my girls are from an outcross breeding and I couldn't be happier.


Another good post:goodpost::goodpost: I am all for outcrossing but again I think breeder's need to understand traits behind dogs when mixing bloodlines and what they are trying to establish before doing so.And I think outcrossing works well Especially when inbreeding get's too tight with in a line it's always good to outcross as you stated periodically to keep lines healthier and get rid of faults. GREAT POST PATCHES!


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> I will also like to add that I was comparing an akc mastiff to an english bulldog because for the most part these dogs are plagued with orthopedic problems and they can't do what they were originally bred to do. It's not even the participants fault it is the judges that preffer these exagerated looking dogs. Last weekend i was at a AKC show and I saw an english mastiff that was amazing, tight waist very leggy and thin. This dog looked in amazing shape and looked quite functional, he did not even place instead a big droopy 250+ pound couch potatoe won the class..


uhhh that make me so frustrated lol why I norm don't hang with anyone from the AKC crowd but that aside I like this thread alot of good information:clap:


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## Hagen (Nov 26, 2009)

Patch-O-Pits said:


> On another note there is nothing wrong with breeding a show typy dog to a working dog as long as both are bringing the qualities to the table that you are looking for. LOL FYI a lot of us who own pretty show dogs also work those dogs in other areas... A working dog with better structure will e able to work longer and better than one with crappy structure. A true working dog must be the total package to be the best at whatever it does....


I think you can't breed for both, ...show and work.
Of course you can go with a worker to a show, or you can try if a show dog is able to work, but if you want to have successful breedings, you must decide which way you go.
I know that Bob Stevens wrote about APBT - AmStaff crossing, but in that time when he has wrote Dogs Of Velvet And Steel, the APBT and AmStaff wasn't as far away from each other as today.
For an outcross I would prefer a worker from a different dog breed, more than a (more than 3 generations) show dog from the same breed.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

Hagen said:


> I think you can't breed for both, ...show and work.
> Of course you can go with a worker to a show, or you can try if a show dog is able to work, but if you want to have successful breedings, you must decide which way you go.
> I know that Bob Stevens wrote about APBT - AmStaff crossing, but in that time when he has wrote Dogs Of Velvet And Steel, the APBT and AmStaff wasn't as far away from each other as today.
> For an outcross I would prefer a worker from a different dog breed, more than a (more than 3 generations) show dog from the same breed.


 Hagen,
I think you missed my whole point. I was not speaking of AmStaffs only of APBTs.
The *total dog *is what should be bred for NOT a pretty pretty couch potato who dog but also not a great working dog with crappy structure who falls apart from working by the time he hits 4-5 years old. To me a show dog should also be a working dog and a working dog should also be able to show. I think people breeding dogs for show that do not meet the other aspects of the standard are ding a disservice to the breed. So maybe my definition of show dog is different than yours. To me a "real" show dog also can work.  LOL I used to have this discussion quite often with Cane when he was still with us here. In this breed the standard calls for the dog to be agile, have good working drive, good structural balance, good health and above all an EXCEPTIONAL temperament. Yes, the performance aspect was always put first, but to me everything goes hand and hand in making a great dog. The parts of the standard were created for good reason, the structure of the dog does greatly accent it's abilities and performance no matter how great the drive. One aspect of the standard shouldn't be sacrificed over another.

A couple of years ago at ADBA Nationals a great judge was going through why each part of the standard is the way it is with everyone after the show; it was very interesting listening to the historical breakdown of the reasoning behind it.

EX: I'd rather have the dog that can effortlessly jump a fence to chase a ball then one who has the drive to do it, but needs to push off and climb or go through the fence because poor angulation and lack of turn in the stifle prohibit proper movement prevent it from being as agile.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

Here is another good link; this one is on structural soundness:
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


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## Hagen (Nov 26, 2009)

To breed strong and healthy dogs is much easier than to breed an outstanding worker.
I'll try using the example of hunting dogs, because the real work for an APBT is illegal in most lands.
In Germany we have some breeds for hunting badger. All of them are smaller and lighter than the badger. Of course they have to be strong and healthy, but they can't find and beat it with their body. It's the character of the dogs what brings the success. And that is a thing that you will never see if you work them on fun sport.
In breeding it's very difficult to get gameness and hunting sense, but very easy to loose it. ...And when you loose it, it's nearly impossible to get it back. 
Fun sport is a kind of work, but not that kind of work what is important for me.
A lot of Jack Russels of hunting lines are able to make fun sport, but only a few from fun sport lines are able to work a badger. And it will be less and less from generation to generation.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm ONLY referring to legal work and working events as well. There are many different types of work the APBT does. 

Hunting is great if that is your thing. My dad is a hunter.

To me all the great qualities of an APBT should be the goal or doing a breeding is pointless. I don't think that it is truly hard to breed a good working dog I think more so the case is sadly that, there are too many APBT breeders who know nothing about the breed or only care about making cash... 

So I agree with you that dogs with great working ethic are often not being bred for; with many of the dogs I've seen being produced, I couldn't even tell you what the purpose is besides lacking agility, and drive half of them look nothing like APBTs in type and honestly couldn't make it around the show ring as "just" a show dog either.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

Hagen,
Here is an example of what I consider to be a great working dog, he is not a hunting dog, but has worked and titled in many venues.
California K9 Services, Leri Hanson


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## Hagen (Nov 26, 2009)

Ah, Schutzhund work!
The first dogs of my wife are from an APBT Schutzhund working line.
It was in the 80s and they were not ADBA registered.
Here are 2 pics of Drago and Targa: WEB.DE Foto-Alben


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks for sharing they were adorable! I think the breed is so versatile and amazing that it is sad to see ones with no working drive being bred.


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## Hagen (Nov 26, 2009)

Here are some pics of our dogs, from 1982 - 2009. Not in chronological order.
The Great White was a bone crushing freak. I've used him to catch wild boars. He looks like an American Bulldog, but it was an APBT.
http://www.fotos.web.de/snakewidomski/1982-2010


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