# Camelot X Gaff... I have a question for the experts



## Huberpits (Oct 31, 2008)

I am very curious to here what you all think. I want to know if my pups are APBT or Am Bully. I really dont like the idea of "Bully" because to me it represents an overly short dog that is unhealthy (fat) and resembles a bulldog. Saying that, I have come to know that a Am bully is that of crossing an Amstaff and Apbt. I have a unique case. I am trying to build a weightpull team in California with what I think will be a perfect balance of blood to give these pullers mass, bone, drive (gameness), and most importantly what i call correct apbt standard. I took a UKC Camelot/Santos female to a UKC Gaff dog and the pups have arrived three days ago. 4males and 4females. The pups will be reg with the UKC and ADBA. The Camelot/Santos female has origins with Clouse, Hemphil, Wilder and some of the great Camelot dogs like (the Duke, Cheif, Kubar..etc..) and the Santos side of her pedigree with Mighty Ghost and a cast of ADBA pullers. The Gaff male has origins with the founding Gaff dogs (Cool hand luke, etc..) and a few show GRCH. I have heard that the Gaff originals have come from AKC but not sure. I also noticed one Razor's edge dog in the sixth generation pedigree of the male on the bottom. The gaff line is very conformed and very well put together, very lean and correct. I am hoping to produce a 60-65 pound weight puller that has the drive of the old red heritage at the size of a Gaff dog that is correct. Now, do you think my pups are Am Bullies or APBT? When I hand over these pups to there new owners I want to be as honest and knowlegable as I can be. Any input is greatly respected. Jerod Huber "Huber Pits"


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I would say AmBullies, honestly. You're looking pretty far back in the pedigrees when you talk about original Gaff and what's behind Camelot, and once you get past a certain point, those dogs have little genetic influence. The _recent_ Camelot dogs, and the _recent_ Gaff dogs have been for a large part pretty bully. Honestly, I'd think you could build a stronger weight pull team going with some good old-fashioned gamebred blood. Or if you wanted the big dogs, something like Whopper or Dagger. I personally wouldn't incorporate Gaff into any performance program, because I just haven't seen a lot of performance history there, and there's some questionable health issues. (Can't comment on the performance of Camelot dogs because I don't know.) JMO.

ETA: Just for reference sake...

http://www.camelotpitbulls.com/
http://www.gaffkennels.net/


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Huberpits said:


> I am very curious to here what you all think. I want to know if my pups are APBT or Am Bully. I really dont like the idea of "Bully" because to me it represents an overly short dog that is unhealthy (fat) and resembles a bulldog. Saying that, I have come to know that a Am bully is that of crossing an Amstaff and Apbt. I have a unique case. I am trying to build a weightpull team in California with what I think will be a perfect balance of blood to give these pullers mass, bone, drive (gameness), and most importantly what i call correct apbt standard. I took a UKC Camelot/Santos female to a UKC Gaff dog and the pups have arrived three days ago. 4males and 4females. The pups will be reg with the UKC and ADBA. The Camelot/Santos female has origins with Clouse, Hemphil, Wilder and some of the great Camelot dogs like (the Duke, Cheif, Kubar..etc..) and the Santos side of her pedigree with Mighty Ghost and a cast of ADBA pullers. The Gaff male has origins with the founding Gaff dogs (Cool hand luke, etc..) and a few show GRCH. I have heard that the Gaff originals have come from AKC but not sure. I also noticed one Razor's edge dog in the sixth generation pedigree of the male on the bottom. The gaff line is very conformed and very well put together, very lean and correct. I am hoping to produce a 60-65 pound weight puller that has the drive of the old red heritage at the size of a Gaff dog that is correct. Now, do you think my pups are Am Bullies or APBT? When I hand over these pups to there new owners I want to be as honest and knowlegable as I can be. Any input is greatly respected. Jerod Huber "Huber Pits"


Your dog will be what ever you want to call it really,it can be registered as a apbt,but is more of a bully and Camelots the duke is a french mastiff cross so i don't know,call it a American pull dog......
Im a fan of xxl red nose stuff so im not trying to be negitive,just honest,im not sure about the gaff blood though,not much of a working line.....


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## Huberpits (Oct 31, 2008)

bahamutt99,
The reason I stated the dogs in the back of the pedigree is because most of them have been line bred. I mean I have the Duke so many times in my girls pedigree. but thank you so much for your input. i still have a hard time calling them bullies though. Call it what you want, but out here in cali, a bully is a lowrider dog crossed with some serious bulldog, lol... It has almost gotten out of hand where I wouldnt want to call them that. but i guess it is what it is.


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## Huberpits (Oct 31, 2008)

cane76,
thanks for ur comments. i didnt know duke was a french mastiff cross... lol... is that speculation or is that a fact?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Not trying to drive home the point, but I wouldn't call them APBTs either. One reason being because Gaff is an AmStaff line. (A rather bully AmStaff line.) And Camelot, I can't call them anything other than bullies.

Camelot dogs:










































Gaff dogs:


































You go on either of their websites, and yes, you do see some fairly normal-looking dogs, but you see just as many bullies. What you don't see are dogs doing any kind of meaningful work. If you want to create pulldogs, they need leg for leverage, lots of drive, sound health, enough muzzle length to breathe properly, etc. If you don't want to call them bullies, I understand, but I wouldn't call them "pits" or APBTs either. Neither of those lines embody the essence and type of the old gladiator, IMO.


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## Huberpits (Oct 31, 2008)

is that the idea? represent the gladiator type "pits" of the past? All the dogs pictured above look like a "pitbull" to me. Maybe I dont know what a pit is supposed to look like and that is very likely. So what do I call them, bull pits, pitty longstalkings, anything but pit bulls or APBT? I thought the idea of pitbulls as far as the "look" goes was a breeders choice and what the each specific "breeder" is breeding for? Not all pits are made for show and not one litter has pups that all fit in the guidlines. There are evolving genetics that change over time. What I am getting at, is nothing stays the same. Everyone has a different idea of what a "pitbull" is supposed to look like, but since the breed is still evolving isnt it possible for genetic variation to change as well? Without regard to paper swaping and all that garbage, lets pretend everyone is as honest as I like to be. Is it fair for breeders to get what they want out of a bloodline and "change" the disposition of a pit and still call it what it really is if it does not comprimise the breed itself?


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## Huberpits (Oct 31, 2008)

I will get bashed by the pitbull community if I call them pits, and I will get bashed by the Bully community if I call them bullies cuz they are not short and fat...


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> Neither of those lines embody the essence and type of the old gladiator, IMO.


I agree. Both of these lines weren't bred for working but more so for a certain look. They don't have the lung capacity or muzzle as you stated for weight pulling.

You will catch less heat calling them American Bullies as they don't have a set standard as of yet anyway. They are definately not true APBT lines. I'm not trying to bash either of these lines but they do not meet ADBA or UKC standards...that is just plain fact.


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## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

None of those dogs look like true APBT in my opinion, They are either to low and wide or their nose is too short. They dont look very atheletic either, might be strong but no stamana. Not a very good mix for a pull dog IMO. As far as what a pit should look like, check all the standards. None of the dogs pictured would meet them IMO.


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## Huberpits (Oct 31, 2008)

well thank you all for posting. It has been informational.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Huberpits said:


> All the dogs pictured above look like a "pitbull" to me. Maybe I dont know what a pit is supposed to look like and that is very likely. quote]
> 
> Honestly they look nothing of the sort. Here's a link to a recent thread I started, maybe you could use these pictures for reference..
> http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/8898-game-dogs.html


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## quaterboy22 (Nov 12, 2006)

also other things where added to make some ambullys no all but most not just amstaff and apbt,


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## RelicBizar (Nov 2, 2008)

I don't like BULLY dogs either.

"Studie the history of the breed and compare the differnd breed standards. 
Get your information on conformation and check out the bloodlines. " - Géraldo


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Honest breeders of XXL red nose dogs have long ago admitted to crossing in of french mastiff,American bulldog and bull mastiff,i believe Camelots the duke is the result of this early experimentation in the 90's,Ive seen his pedigree and i dont see any relation to whopper or Chevy red dog but i do know the lines are crossed just by looking at those photos,looks like some poor choices for working hybrids maybe bred mostly for warped aesthetic,jmo.....


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Huberpits said:


> I will get bashed by the pitbull community if I call them pits, and I will get bashed by the Bully community if I call them bullies cuz they are not short and fat...


Stick too the weight pull community,you cant get bashed for saying ive got dogs from proven pull stock,if in fact they are,and there pedigrees are there pedigrees,the ukc has registered crosses for day's now as pure bred too the point that nobody can tell the difference anymore,large ears,bowed out front quarters are the signs of a american bulldog breeding in my opinion,that's what I'm seeing in the Camelot stuff mostly,gaff is just line bred for bully looks.
If the dogs succeed at what there bred to do nobody can say sh#@
and have it taken seriously,again jmo,jmo.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

If you're planning on being competitive in weight pull, you could call them Cali Pulldogs or something. Or you could call them American Bullies. I doubt anyone would bash you for that. Folks down here call their Whopper dogs "Oklahoma Bulldogs." Making the best Pit Bull is not really about breeder's choice. It's about adherence to the written standard with an emphasis on performance. Best of luck in your venture either way. Hope that litter werrrrrks for you.


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## allaboutpitbull (Nov 5, 2008)

even woppers are mixed it was a big thing back in the day with adba leting them get thir pappers


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

> Making the best Pit Bull is not really about breeder's choice. It's about adherence to the written standard with an emphasis on performance.


 I totally agree


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