# How can you tell if the dog was used for fighting?



## rebeccayhb

I just learned a shocking news(to me it is), that when we first got sugar home, we chained her because our neighbors boxer boy and pitbull girl started a fight with her through the wire fence. our uncle and aunt used to live next door so we basically had the same yard..now they sold the house and new neighbor is renting their house, the yard stays the same..ANYWAY, long story short, there's no privacy issues and our neighbor are super nice people. 
the first day we took her from the back gate, neighbor's dogs came to see, i took sugar to greet them through the fence, the other pit started fighting, and the boxer followed. that caused sugar to start too...we pulled her back in time before anything could happen..that's why we chained her, while we were looking for a rescue group to answer back, a few days later the chain broke, I freaked out and went out to see if she jumped over to fight with the other dogs...but she was right in the yard playing, as if the other dogs didn't exist. we gave it another two or three days, she stayed fine. so i thought, ok, she's not aggressive.

but last night, my husband told me, when my father in law came to stay with us while sugar was still outside. that he saw her biting the other pitbull and wouldn't let go of her. she was biting through the wire fence. i yelled at my hubby, why didn't you tell me?? did she get hurt?? he said, i thought my dad already told you.

DUH!

now I'm feeling so unsettled. from what we see on her face, she apprently has many scars, and bite marks..how can you tell if she was a fighting dog??


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## performanceknls

She has the typical temperament of most APBT's and that is to be Dog Aggressive or DA. That does not mean she was used for fighting and th scars could be from accidents like you had. The fact she didn't do anything the first time she got off makes me think no she was not used for fighting. Despite what many rescue groups want ppl to believe it is not common for a dog who has been fought to go through the adoption system. What type of chain set up do you have? If you have a proper chain set up with a proper collar then you can contain your dog, having a dog that DA is a big responsibility and it is your job to make sure that dog does not harm other dogs or animals outside your yard.
Also with APBT's NEVER let them "visit" or be "introduced" to other dogs like that you are just asking for trouble. They are not pack dogs especially when they are that DA you need to keep them away from other animals. You also need a break stick and learn how to use it.

Again what type of chain are you using and how is it anchored to the ground? You properbly need a heavier set up.


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## Firehazard

Thats a "kennel fight" dogs through the fence.. a good way to lose a leg or a nose. She needs a kennel, I don't mean a crate, or a good chain. Its good to have her loose, but because of your situation its not good to leave her loose all the time. APBTs fight, they like it, they are pugnacious. An APBT that ignores the fight until its on their doorstep is the best dog to have and the reason the APBT was the mascot for the USA in WWI and WWII. Neutral but ain't afraid of any of em'.

How can you tell if an APBT is used for fighting? YOU CAN'T... You can tell if it has been used in multiple or as a roll dog by the numerous battle scars, I mean NUMEROUS. JUST BECAUSE AN APBT likes to FIGHT doesn't mean someone made him that way, thats just what they do, esspecially if you give them NOTHING ELSE TO DO.

A dog that is this scared up and is this happy is a roll dog, or what the media call a bait dog...







Scars on Scars on Scars.. MIND YOU that alot of damage can happen in little time through a fence or while pulling dogs apart, thus the BREAK stick that ALL APBT owners should have, just pop em' off like an Alabama tick.


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## Firehazard

performanceknls said:


> She has the typical temperament of most APBT's and that is to be Dog Aggressive or DA. That does not mean she was used for fighting and th scars could be from accidents like you had. The fact she didn't do anything the first time she got off makes me think no she was not used for fighting. Despite what many rescue groups want ppl to believe it is not common for a dog who has been fought to go through the adoption system. What type of chain set up do you have? If you have a proper chain set up with a proper collar then you can contain your dog, having a dog that DA is a big responsibility and it is your job to make sure that dog does not harm other dogs or animals outside your yard.
> Also with APBT's NEVER let them "visit" or be "introduced" to other dogs like that you are just asking for trouble. They are not pack dogs especially when they are that DA you need to keep them away from other animals. You also need a break stick and learn how to use it.
> 
> Again what type of chain are you using and how is it anchored to the ground? You properbly need a heavier set up.


:goodpost::clap::goodpost:


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## rebeccayhb

performanceknls said:


> She has the typical temperament of most APBT's and that is to be Dog Aggressive or DA. That does not mean she was used for fighting and th scars could be from accidents like you had. The fact she didn't do anything the first time she got off makes me think no she was not used for fighting. Despite what many rescue groups want ppl to believe it is not common for a dog who has been fought to go through the adoption system. What type of chain set up do you have? If you have a proper chain set up with a proper collar then you can contain your dog, having a dog that DA is a big responsibility and it is your job to make sure that dog does not harm other dogs or animals outside your yard.
> Also with APBT's NEVER let them "visit" or be "introduced" to other dogs like that you are just asking for trouble. They are not pack dogs especially when they are that DA you need to keep them away from other animals. You also need a break stick and learn how to use it.
> 
> Again what type of chain are you using and how is it anchored to the ground? You properbly need a heavier set up.


thank you lisa, we don't chain her anymore. she's inside with us. and I use leash to take her out to pee and poo. I realized it was my fault to take her to greet the other two dogs, now I walked her around to avoid the "meeting" with them. she's been doing great. I just don't know this dog, but as far as HA goes, she's definitely NOT. that's what my main concern is.
thanks for your answer, lisa.:goodpost:


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## performanceknls

You still should have a chain setup so she can get some yard time, it's good for them to be cooped up in a house all the time without some outside time to be a dog. Do a search on chain setups on this site and you will see the proper set up you need.
And good luck with the dog


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## rebeccayhb

Firehazard said:


> Thats a "kennel fight" dogs through the fence.. a good way to lose a leg or a nose. She needs a kennel, I don't mean a crate, or a good chain. Its good to have her loose, but because of your situation its not good to leave her loose all the time. APBTs fight, they like it, they are pugnacious. An APBT that ignores the fight until its on their doorstep is the best dog to have and the reason the APBT was the mascot for the USA in WWI and WWII. Neutral but ain't afraid of any of em'.
> 
> How can you tell if an APBT is used for fighting? YOU CAN'T... You can tell if it has been used in multiple or as a roll dog by the numerous battle scars, I mean NUMEROUS. JUST BECAUSE AN APBT likes to FIGHT doesn't mean someone made him that way, thats just what they do, esspecially if you give them NOTHING ELSE TO DO.
> 
> A dog that is this scared up and is this happy is a roll dog, or what the media call a bait dog...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scars on Scars on Scars.. MIND YOU that alot of damage can happen in little time through a fence or while pulling dogs apart, thus the BREAK stick that ALL APBT owners should have, just pop em' off like an Alabama tick.


that picture is horrible...horrible...it makes me wanna scream!!!
well, compare to this picture, scars on sugar's face are NOTHING then.
sorry I didn't make myself clear, that she's inside with us now. I take her out to the back yard on a leash. and we walk around where the other two dogs are. now that you also mention break sticks, I'm gonna check it out.
thanks for the information.


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## rebeccayhb

performanceknls said:


> You still should have a chain setup so she can get some yard time, it's good for them to be cooped up in a house all the time without some outside time to be a dog. Do a search on chain setups on this site and you will see the proper set up you need.
> And good luck with the dog


thank you! my husband bought some chain at the pet section and wrapped it around a pole of the dog run, we chain her up there when we need to go out for a long period of time(4 hours or more) so she can play in the yard but not long enough to reach the other dogs...but we only did it twice so far. hasn't been any incidents. thank goodness!

you say it IS good for them ? or did you mean it is NOT? lol


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## Aireal

Hey, do ya'll have any good site where one could get a breaking stick? I realize that is defiantly something I should have in my home with the pits and American bulldogs, for that day when it all goes to hell lol :hammer:


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## gamer

You cant tell if they were used for fighting and one should never assume anything when it comes to this breed.

That picture does not look like a bait dog. A bait dog would have scars all over that dog in the picture looks like he went head to head where a bait dog (if there was such a thing) would have marks all over from trying to get away and being rolled over. that dog did a darn good job of keeping his legs and rear end outta the way for a bait dog.

Plexi Bulldog Break Stick
Home :: Parting Device :: Nylon Parting Sticks - DEAL (buy 2 or more nylon sticks)


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## Firehazard

not hard to find or make.. its not a pry device rather its a device to imply the jaw muscles to release. The stick is tapered at the end and rounded as well so that it can slide in the bite gap of rear jaw and then is slighty turned. Allows the dog to come right off providing the intensity of the situation.

HOG DOG HUNTING PRODUCTS CUT VEST COLLARS

Hog Dog Supplies

_Some people are advertising tazers and stunguns as electric breaking sticks.. LOL don't do that, the APBT is just the dog to take the aggression to a HULK like state and make your situation worse, not to mention the dog is touching you 9outta10 times when breaking up a dog fight, so if you zap your dog you zap yourself.. _


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## Firehazard

gamer said:


> You cant tell if they were used for fighting and one should never assume anything when it comes to this breed.
> 
> That picture does not look like a bait dog. A bait dog would have scars all over that dog in the picture looks like he went head to head where a bait dog (if there was such a thing) would have marks all over from trying to get away and being rolled over. that dog did a darn good job of keeping his legs and rear end outta the way for a bait dog.
> 
> Plexi Bulldog Break Stick
> Home :: Parting Device :: Nylon Parting Sticks - DEAL (buy 2 or more nylon sticks)


Of course,,you alread know; that is a confiscated roll dog, that the media promoted as a bait dog.


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## gamer

Firehazard said:


> not hard to find or make.. its not a pry device rather its a device to imply the jaw muscles to release. The stick is tapered at the end and rounded as well so that it can slide in the bite gap of rear jaw and then is slighty turned. Allows the dog to come right off providing the intensity of the situation.
> 
> HOG DOG HUNTING PRODUCTS CUT VEST COLLARS
> 
> Hog Dog Supplies
> 
> _Some people are advertising tazers and stunguns as electric breaking sticks.. LOL don't do that, *the APBT is just the dog to take the aggression to a HULK like state and make your situation worse,* not to mention the dog is touching you 9outta10 times when breaking up a dog fight, so if you zap your dog you zap yourself.. _


True I had a guy let his pit loose on mine while I was walking it once and this fool comes out and tried to light my dogs nose on fire with a lighter he didnt realize that more pain just made him bite harder and shake more. So inflicting pain on them is a very bad idea, same thing with trying to beat the dog off.


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## gamer

Firehazard said:


> Of course,,you alread know; that is a confiscated roll dog, that the media promoted as a bait dog.


Oh ok I just hate the whole bait dog thing it rubs me the wrong way


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## dixieland

I think I've also heard somewhere that you can use a really sturdy tent stake too.


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## Pitcrew

gamer said:


> Oh ok I just hate the whole bait dog thing it rubs me the wrong way


AMEN and AMEN!!


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## Aireal

lol ya i have never had to do more than say CUTE THAT CRAP OUT and give my release command but with foster dogs and rescues (whom i have not trained) and others, and if/when i get one with a high prey drive. i figure a little help never hurt  

thanks guys i'll go check that site out


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## performanceknls

rebeccayhb said:


> thank you! my husband bought some chain at the pet section and wrapped it around a pole of the dog run, we chain her up there when we need to go out for a long period of time(4 hours or more) so she can play in the yard but not long enough to reach the other dogs...but we only did it twice so far. hasn't been any incidents. thank goodness!
> 
> you say it IS good for them ? or did you mean it is NOT? lol


It is good for them to have time outside to be a dog, I do not think it is good to be cooped up in a house all day and not be able to enjoy time out. That is why the chain broke you need a heavy chain not a thin chain or cable. again check the search feature and type in chain set up and see what others use. A heavy secure chain and a good collar will keep your dog from getting out.


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## Aireal

performanceknls said:


> It is good for them to have time outside to be a dog, I do not think it is good to be cooped up in a house all day and not be able to enjoy time out. That is why the chain broke you need a heavy chain not a thin chain or cable. again check the search feature and type in chain set up and see what others use. A heavy secure chain and a good collar will keep your dog from getting out.


:goodpost:

also have you thought of getting another fence put up with a gap between the two fences, that way they can't get to each other, the best thing if you can afford it would be to put up a privacy fence so they don't even have to see each other, then your dog would be able to spend sometime off the lead, that's what i would do


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## Mcleod15

Chain setup
Get you a heavy 2inch collar made for staking out a dog

get you some 1/4" transport logging chain, at 12ft(good length) it will weigh about 9lbs maybe alittle more

get you a heavy duty true swivel

get 3 1/4" cold shuts or bigger

get 2 heavy duty 2inch o-rings

car axel or something similar and hammer that about 2-3 feet in the ground

run the collar through the o-rings and then place the collar on the dog. Dog only comes off when his collar comes off or collar breaks or chain breaks but you better have you one strong dog, if you don't feel comfortable with 1/4" go bigger


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## APBTHAUS

gamer said:


> You cant tell if they were used for fighting and one should never assume anything when it comes to this breed.
> 
> That picture does not look like a bait dog. A bait dog would have scars all over that dog in the picture looks like he went head to head where a bait dog (if there was such a thing) would have marks all over from trying to get away and being rolled over. that dog did a darn good job of keeping his legs and rear end outta the way for a bait dog.
> 
> Plexi Bulldog Break Stick
> Home :: Parting Device :: Nylon Parting Sticks - DEAL (buy 2 or more nylon sticks)


Are you saying that there is no such thing as a "bait" dog?


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## rebeccayhb

what is a bait dog(duh, is it that they use these dogs to lure other dogs to fight with them?????) and a roll dog?? 

oh my gosh why do people do these things???? ??? ??????


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## rebeccayhb

Mcleod15 said:


> Chain setup
> Get you a heavy 2inch collar made for staking out a dog
> 
> get you some 1/4" transport logging chain, at 12ft(good length) it will weigh about 9lbs maybe alittle more
> 
> get you a heavy duty true swivel
> 
> get 3 1/4" cold shuts or bigger
> 
> get 2 heavy duty 2inch o-rings
> 
> car axel or something similar and hammer that about 2-3 feet in the ground
> 
> run the collar through the o-rings and then place the collar on the dog. Dog only comes off when his collar comes off or collar breaks or chain breaks but you better have you one strong dog, if you don't feel comfortable with 1/4" go bigger


thanks!!! My husband said the first chain we used(since we hadn't had a dog in so long, we found what we could in our storage) was weak, and if she really pulls, she can easily break it..that's why we bought another strong chain. 
thank you so much I'll write these down and make her a good set up!:woof:


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## rebeccayhb

Aireal said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> also have you thought of getting another fence put up with a gap between the two fences, that way they can't get to each other, the best thing if you can afford it would be to put up a privacy fence so they don't even have to see each other, then your dog would be able to spend sometime off the lead, that's what i would do


right now, the budget won't allow..unfortunately..we have a good size back yard, it'll cost at least 2k to fix a private fence..
the good thing is once we set up the chain she's not gonna be able to go that far..


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## rebeccayhb

performanceknls said:


> It is good for them to have time outside to be a dog, I do not think it is good to be cooped up in a house all day and not be able to enjoy time out. That is why the chain broke you need a heavy chain not a thin chain or cable. again check the search feature and type in chain set up and see what others use. A heavy secure chain and a good collar will keep your dog from getting out.


that's what i thought too..i try to take her out as often as i could, it's been hitting over 100F outside these days in texas, she does NOT want to stay out for long though.
I did some search after you suggested, I think I need to let my husband read all that LOL


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## rebeccayhb

dixieland said:


> I think I've also heard somewhere that you can use a really sturdy tent stake too.


yep, i saw the video on youtube.


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## performanceknls

The chain set up Corey posted it a perfect example of what to use.

Bait dogs are what the media has named just about every pit bull because it sounds horrible. Bait dogs are something the media and every rescue group calls dogs for you to feel sorry for them and give them your money. In my house General McNasty (my boston terrier) would be called a bait dog if I got raided because he is a smaller non pit bull living with 13 pits.

Roll dogs are dogs who have been allowed to "roll" with another dog, like a small fight but not for a long period of time. Man I don't know if I am using the right way to explain this my head hurts! lol Gamer can you help me out??


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## Firehazard

A roll dog, is a dog that has "dumb game" or is a "deep game" dog thats talents are abused in our opinions but honored in a prof dog mans. Kinda like the boxer who spars with RoyJonesJr everyday as he trains, does that make sense? dumb game well its the dog that keeps going despite his/her broken leg and the obvious finality of its situation it listens to nothing and wants nothing more than to finish the job. 

A roll dog is that sparring partner, and roll like sparing aren't fights as much as a fun intense workout.. before you judge, LOOK how happy that dog in the photo is, thats what makes him a GOOD roll dog.. As you pointed out earlier, APBTs generally like a good squab.


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## performanceknls

Thanks firehazard I could not get the words to put it the right way. Good way of putting it with boxers and sparing partners.


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## Saint Francis

A wooden break stick is not recommended. Use a man made material that doesn't splinter or break down from saliva. Also, while working it in the mouth you have to watch so as not to damage any teeth.


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## Saint Francis

That dog in the photo is just standing there looking at the camera, and that equates to him being a happy roll dog? That's one interpretation of a single photo to say the least!! I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm sure he would look the same way after playing a game of fetch in the backyard or sitting on the couch with his owner watching the Andy Griffith Show ( a personal favorite) LOL!!


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## gamer

Ok I have never heard nor used "dumb game" What you described is deep game IMO. If you roll two dogs, you are just checking them out, you can do longer rolls to determine gameness, and you can use short rolls to get a look at a young dog. Generally roll dogs are dogs that are used to roll with other dogs that you want to see what they have. You can choose to roll your dog uphill (into a bigger dog) its just basically a dog used in a roll, which is to check out a dog, or test gameness in other cases.

I also think that different people from different backgrounds who have been educated by different dogmen may use different terms and those terms can be slightly different if that makes sense.


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## gamer

APBTHAUS said:


> Are you saying that there is no such thing as a "bait" dog?


Well no I dont think so in the sport of dog fighting there ever was, you see the HSUS and all these rescues want you to believe it but you know what most if not all dog men ( all the ones I have talked to) thought it was inhumane to let a pit bull attack another dog or animal other then a pit bull, so they didnt do it. The HSUS needed the public to fear and hate dog fighting so they made this up and it stuck, so maybe you have a thug or two letting their dogs on other animals but honestly it is a demon that the HSUS made.


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## Xiahko

Thanks Gamer and fire for the info. I didn't know what a roll dog was until now.

Yes bait dog is just thrown around now to make you want to adopt the animal,for the sake of feeling sorry for it.

Which should never be the case in adopting a dog. Pit bulls in general.


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## Saint Francis

gamer said:


> Ok I have never heard nor used "dumb game" What you described is deep game IMO. If you roll two dogs, you are just checking them out, you can do longer rolls to determine gameness, and you can use short rolls to get a look at a young dog. Generally roll dogs are dogs that are used to roll with other dogs that you want to see what they have. You can choose to roll your dog uphill (into a bigger dog) its just basically a dog used in a roll, which is to check out a dog, or test gameness in other cases.
> 
> I also think that different people from different backgrounds who have been educated by different dogmen may use different terms and those terms can be slightly different if that makes sense.


I'm sure that all this knowledge was derived from what you've heard or read, and not from first hand experience, unless we're talking pre 1976 of course


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## gamer

Saint Francis said:


> I'm sure that all this knowledge was derived from what you've heard or read, and not from first hand experience, unless we're talking pre 1976 of course


Of course everything I discuss as to the history of the breed is pre 1976 from the men who had these dogs before most of us were born


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## Saint Francis

gamer said:


> Of course everything I discuss as to the history of the breed is pre 1976 from the men who had these dogs before most of us were born


Although I have my own opinions about dog fighting, I just wanted to remind those that speak on a public forum to watch how they word their statements, especially if using first person, because of possible lurkers that may be observing for any damning evidence against said speaker/s. Nothing personal with you gamer


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## smokey_joe

gamer said:


> Ok I have never heard nor used "dumb game" What you described is deep game IMO. If you roll two dogs, you are just checking them out, you can do longer rolls to determine gameness, and you can use short rolls to get a look at a young dog. Generally roll dogs are dogs that are used to roll with other dogs that you want to see what they have. You can choose to roll your dog uphill (into a bigger dog) its just basically a dog used in a roll, which is to check out a dog, or test gameness in other cases.
> 
> I also think that different people from different backgrounds who have been educated by different dogmen may use different terms and those terms can be slightly different if that makes sense.


I thought "dumb game" would be "dead game."


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## Firehazard

Clearity... dumb game in reference to the dogs that aren't interested in anything but another dog inwhich they lose their mind and will not stop going nuts even if its sitting still, its shaking in anxiety, combined with yet again the LACK of interest in anything but another dog and being that dumb dog with his head in your lap.

The only roll dogs I've seen were litter mates or belly mates to the great and inbred offspring of the greats, back in the day, they are probably all dead of age now, I haven't been on a yard in almost 7 yrs, got my own bear dog thing going on. There are alot of Jocko/Redboy or Redboy/Jocko (whateve) that come out dumb game. Not interested in anything but getting another dog, not the ball or flirt pole or spring pole, the cat is even okay, but let a canine species come into view, LOL... Dumb game

Curious about the roll and match and all that historical lingo and don't have a stratton book or an APBT building block?
http://rayfox6.tripod.com/id12.html

Look for literature on the old dog men, and the greats... many good interviews copied and posted right here on GPB.com


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