# I hate this person



## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Perfect view of animal cruelty by Cesar Milan .. JERK






He needs to be taken off TV


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

I don't think it's cruelty... I don't know, it wasn't too bad..


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

This is so wrong on so many levels.


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## betsy09 (Jan 3, 2010)

That's a big a$$ dog. Cesar checked him and dominated the dog versus the other way around. I don't think it's animal cruelty either. Fear is a mutha when it comes to dealing with dogs and I've seen Cesar do some amazing things with some of the most uncooperative of pooches. Besides, I'm sure PETA and other animal cruelty associations were there to approve his techniques. Sure beats whacking the dog into submission.


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## Czar (Nov 11, 2009)

tsssssssssssssssst I like cesar alot of things he says makes since. Lots of people dont like him though for some reason, What do u find wrong with this video?


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

I see nothing wrong with this. he is stern, and a strong alpha to this dominant wolf hybrid. If it weren't for the choker and quick movements he could have been hurt I also see He forced the dog into a submissive posture to inforce leadership as wolves do in the wild.

what is cruel about this?

(Mind you I don't have my sound on and I don't really know what he was saying..I am going by what the video looked like)


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

Not saying this is the right way to handle this dog. As I have never been around a dog like this but I was on a German Shep forum once and they were talking about how they use this method in training unruly dogs.


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## Czar (Nov 11, 2009)

That dog was HUGE. Plus it was trying to bite him...I would like to see that lady from the its me or the dog show try to handle that dog lmao


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## Lost_Kaus89 (Aug 4, 2009)

I don't really get the cruelty either that dog just bit him i woulda punched it lol J/K you guys.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, in my respectful opinion... I don't think it's fare to lump domesticated dogs such as the GSD, Mals into the same category as the Wolf. The second thing that was rediculous for me personally, was that he was ignorant enough to wear a thin shirt of t-shirt material as your only source of protection from a dog who has known aggression issues. It could have been a lot more.... ummm... calm. He wouldn't have had to string the dog up, he could have let the dog bite, and gain control over the dog immediately. He absolutely was clueless on what to do when that dog was going after him.


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## Czar (Nov 11, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Well, in my respectful opinion... I don't think it's fare to lump domesticated dogs such as the GSD, Mals into the same category as the Wolf. The second thing that was rediculous for me personally, was that he was ignorant enough to wear a thin shirt of t-shirt material as your only source of protection from a dog who has known aggression issues. It could have been a lot more.... ummm... calm. He wouldn't have had to string the dog up, he could have let the dog bite, and gain control over the dog immediately. He absolutely was clueless on what to do when that dog was going after him.


makes since, but how would he have gained control of the dog....Like lost cause said I would of broken that dogs neck..sorry but I hate dogs who bite people..The good thing is the family was trying to work on that dog


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

oh man! my whole post was deleted I have no clue what I did but basically I said this is a technique that is commonly used for DA and HA it is not abuse. I do not like Milan and I LMAO when I saw he got bit! I deal with aggression all the time and the most important thing is to be smart enough not to get bit! lol
Anyway here is an article about dealing with dogs like this and shows this technique is commonly used. This talks about dogs being aggressive with handlers but the idea behind it is the same. Milan did the abbreviated version of this article. Are there other ways to handle a dog like this? Sure but this is also an effective methods used by many trainers. This is a good read and a great resource take the time to read it.

Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar

Copied from Leerburg

Dog that are extremely handler aggressive (the dogs who try to attack their own handler) are always the way they are as a result of the handler not raising the dog according to pack rules. This is not the place to go into what I am talking about - you can read my article titled Dealing with Dominant dogs and GROUND WORK- Becoming a Pack Leader.

I recently commented on a thread on my web board where a trainer was going to war with a dog 5 days after buying the dog. This was and is a mistake.

Most people cannot deal with truly handler aggressive dogs that truly want to attack their owner with the intent of challenging the owner for rank within their family pack. I can tell you what I do but I will insert a word of caution by saying that you should not try this at home unless you are working with a professional dog trainer who really understands this work. I also don't do this on a dog that has not spent weeks going through the pack structure program.

I will set a dog up by putting a hidden sleeve on. Then I will have a second handler there for back-up and for safety. I will have a line over a tree limb with the line hanging down near the level of my knee.

I heel the dog to this location and attach the line to the dominant dog collar. At that point I will do something that causes the dog to attack me. When he does I offer the arm with the hidden sleeve. When the dog is biting the arm the second handler will raise the dogs 4 feet off the ground. I remain totally calm and look the dog in the eye and tell him he will not bite me.

The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this.

When this is done the dog is put away to think about it until the next day. Then he is brought back to the same spot and is tested again to see if he will attack me. Very very seldom will a dog do this more than two days in a row.

If the dog does not attack, it is put away (no other training goes on during this time). Then 2 or 3 days later it is tested again. With dogs like this it is not uncommon to have to test the dog two or three times a year to remind him that you are still the boss.

Usually once a dog has been taken through this process, all you have to do is to take up the slack in the lead while he has this collar on, and his aggressive behavior stops. He remembers very quickly that being a dink gets him hung.

Once a dog has gone through this training program it does not mean that it is now safe to be off leash, nor is it safe to be around other people or dogs.

It has learned that it should not try and attack you. It has learned that you will not stand for it attacking other dogs, people or animals. That's all it has learned. That's a big first step.

These kind of dogs should not be off leash. If they are allowed to be loose, they should be dragging a line and should never be out of view of the owner. They should live in a dog crate or a dog kennel 24/7. The only time they are out of their controlled living space is while they are under control of the handler 110%. If the dog cannot be called back from the biggest distraction the owner can think of then it should not be off leash.

It is your job to control its living environment through the use of dog crates, dog kennels and secure yards. It's your job to take these dogs through a step-by-step regimented training program.

This work is about saving dogs lives. Its about fixing problems that inexperienced people created in their dogs. Its about rescuing a dog that others would have killed.

I will let these people use behavioral modification experts with their clickers and their Halties to change these aggressive dangerous dogs. They can take their dogs to Pet Smart and expose their dog to the bull s**t training that this organization advocates. But then when they hit a wall and have 4 nice puncture wounds in their forearm and several more in their legs, I hope they remember this article when they are taking the dog to the Vet to be put to sleep


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## betsy09 (Jan 3, 2010)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Well, in my respectful opinion... I don't think it's fare to lump domesticated dogs such as the GSD, Mals into the same category as the Wolf. The second thing that was rediculous for me personally, was that he was ignorant enough to wear a thin shirt of t-shirt material as your only source of protection from a dog who has known aggression issues. It could have been a lot more.... ummm... calm. He wouldn't have had to string the dog up, he could have let the dog bite, and gain control over the dog immediately. He absolutely was clueless on what to do when that dog was going after him.


I disagree. He knew what he was doing......it took just couple of minutes to put that dog in its place.....
Anyone else would've been horse kicked by that dog. Sorry, but like I said before, it beats whacking the dog into submission.


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## Chinadog (Sep 14, 2009)

Wolfs should never be made into a pet.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

DONT YOU GUYS SEE HE FIRST KICKS THE DOG WITH HIS LEG FROM BEHIND TO MAKE THE DOG REACT? 
He used a leather slip lead that had NO slip to it. 
Next he is choking the dog until the dogs tongue is turning BLUE 

I dont agree with that method of training by any means. 
I personally have had client dogs go at me just like that I have Never choked it until it turned blue. 
I have had dogs physically come at me and I have been bit plenty of times. But again there is NO reason to do what he did. 

Matter of FACT I have worked with a client who had two husky hybrids and I had her put on a prong / shock collar.. Never had to use the shock but popped the prong a couple of times and didnt have the problem he is having in that video .. 

That is not teaching the dog domnance that is teaching the dog that humans are CRUEL 

Plane and simple


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## ABPT Steve (Dec 30, 2009)

*All i will say is that ceaser knows more about dogs and dog training than anybody on this forum! Thats why he gets paid millions, and we sit back and post concerns about his techniques! Id like to see anybody do a better job with that "mammal" trying to bite them repeatedly! Ceaser remained calm and got the dominant dog to submit... Job Well Done!*


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Chinadog said:


> Wolfs should never be made into a pet.


Amen!! I feel the same way ppl don't understand they are not like your normal pet dog!

But that dog going after Milan had nothing to do with him really being a hybrid he was acting like any other dog for that moment. Milan was not prepared for aggression like that because when the dog went after him he was way to close to to the dogs head. He should have been a muzzle length away so he could hold the dog away from his body and not get bit. If you watch the video his hands are very close to the dogs head and he left himself open to getting bit. When I started as a teenager training dogs we specialized in aggression. I have seen hundreds of dogs like that with a wide range of issues. The first thing you are taught is to protect yourself and how not to get bit. It amazes me that he gets bit so often on his show IMO it just shows he is not what he is made out to be.

I defend the method not Milan.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Czar said:


> makes since, but how would he have gained control of the dog....Like lost cause said I would of broken that dogs neck..sorry but I hate dogs who bite people..The good thing is the family was trying to work on that dog


that's what makes a good trainer... nerves of steal. lmfao He contridicted his entire belief system to me in that video. He says to claim the space for a border collie that got excited every time her owners went to get the leash. He's walk into the dog. The dog was some what submissive and that was the end of it. In this video he jumps back letting the wolf "own the space". With the proper protection using the methods that he claims to, he could have walked into the dog and held it to him.

EDIT: I know that may sound rediculous, and I'm definitely not a pro with this kind of thing. lol


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

ABPT Steve said:


> *All i will say is that ceaser knows more about dogs and dog training than anybody on this forum! Thats why he gets paid millions, and we sit back and post concerns about his techniques! Id like to see anybody do a better job with that "mammal" trying to bite them repeatedly! Ceaser remained calm and got the dominant dog to submit... Job Well Done!*


I wouldn't go as far to say that, Ceaser does know alot, but to say he knows more than anybody else on this forum is a bit ignorant. There are some very knowledgeable people on here.


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

i have seen that show and i think he did what he should of that dog was fast and bit him he could of had a prong but its not abuse


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

geisthexe said:


> DONT YOU GUYS SEE HE FIRST KICKS THE DOG WITH HIS LEG FROM BEHIND TO MAKE THE DOG REACT?
> He used a leather slip lead that had NO slip to it.
> Next he is choking the dog until the dogs tongue is turning BLUE
> 
> ...


The kick? My dog has hit herself harder banging into a wall while chasing a ball or falling off the bed while playing.

I've seen his shows, the kicks he gives are more to "tough" the dog and distract them without giving them attention. I think he handled himself great and got that dog from attacking/biting to a calm fellow in like 4 minutes...

I'm no expert but I really see no cruelty. I think you just don't agree with him. Doesn't mean he is wrong(It doesn't mean you are wrong either). These kind of things have many ways of being done, what's effective for one dog might not work with another, IMO what he did was effective and got exactly what he wanted.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

geisthexe said:


> DONT YOU GUYS SEE HE FIRST KICKS THE DOG WITH HIS LEG FROM BEHIND TO MAKE THE DOG REACT?
> He used a leather slip lead that had NO slip to it.
> Next he is choking the dog until the dogs tongue is turning BLUE
> 
> ...


I missed the kick he gave the dog I have to watch it again but using a lead like that is used with extreme cases with some trainers, it is not unheard of. As far as the dog turning blue, well that was just a side effect, some trainers would have choked the dog out possibly depending if the dog gives in or not.
We just have to agree to disagree with the slip lead. 


ABPT Steve said:


> *All i will say is that ceaser knows more about dogs and dog training than anybody on this forum! Thats why he gets paid millions, and we sit back and post concerns about his techniques! Id like to see anybody do a better job with that "mammal" trying to bite them repeatedly! Ceaser remained calm and got the dominant dog to submit... Job Well Done!*


Don't give him that much credit, Great dog trainers are all over and use many of the same techniques as he does. He did not create dog training he just got a sponsor and got on TV. More power to him for making money but he is not the god of dog trainers, he is just on tv.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

KICKING THE DOG









BLUE TONGUE AND GASPING FOR AIR


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

ABPT Steve said:


> *All i will say is that ceaser knows more about dogs and dog training than anybody on this forum! Thats why he gets paid millions, and we sit back and post concerns about his techniques! Id like to see anybody do a better job with that "mammal" trying to bite them repeatedly! Ceaser remained calm and got the dominant dog to submit... Job Well Done!*


There's a lot of people that get paid to do stuff that many more people are equally if not more then capable of doing. Not everyone has the right connections and luck to make it on TV.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

ABPT Steve said:


> *All i will say is that ceaser knows more about dogs and dog training than anybody on this forum! Thats why he gets paid millions, and we sit back and post concerns about his techniques! Id like to see anybody do a better job with that "mammal" trying to bite them repeatedly! Ceaser remained calm and got the dominant dog to submit... Job Well Done!*


I am really glad you think they guy who was a groomer for 15 yrs and got with Opera to get his show .. He is a idiot who was given something and ran with it. Sorry but you have NO clue about trainers if you truly believe your own statement

I would love to take that and video it .. you get me a dog like that and I will be there .. I except your Challenge


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## DarkMoon (Nov 26, 2009)

I'm sorry, but any dog that is trying to attack me is going to be strangled as well. It's me or the dog, and I sure as heck am not going to let that dog win. And also that kick isn't a full kick. It's just hard enough to get their attention but not hard enough to cause any pain. I sometimes use that same kick when Nubs is behind be paying more attention to the dog behind me then to me. It's more like a jab then a kick.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

DarkMoon said:


> I'm sorry, but any dog that is trying to attack me is going to be strangled as well. It's me or the dog, and I sure as heck am not going to let that dog win. And also that kick isn't a full kick. It's just hard enough to get their attention but not hard enough to cause any pain. I sometimes use that same kick when Nubs is behind be paying more attention to the dog behind me then to me. It's more like a jab then a kick.


But if that does not like to be even tapped by in the stomach area.. why provoke him?

What was his point to do it?

So I guess you believe its ok to provoke a dog so you look better as a trainer or there lack of... come on

Plain and simple he did it for the show !!!


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## ABPT Steve (Dec 30, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Don't give him that much credit, Great dog trainers are all over and use many of the same techniques as he does. He did not create dog training he just got a sponsor and got on TV. More power to him for making money but he is not the god of dog trainers, he is just on tv.


*I didnt say he invented dog training, or that there werent other great dog trainers! I said he knows more about dogs and dog training than anybody on this FORUM, especially the thread starter! Ceaser milan is definitely a great dog trainer! The lady is criticizing him about kicking the dog & doesnt even realize he always uses that technique! He pretty much tapped the dog to break his attention away from the other dog when he started to focus on it, he actually realized the warning signs and knew what was gonna happen next, he was called in to help train an aggressive dog! He didnt kick the dog to stir up a reaction to get him to attack! SMH!*


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## Czar (Nov 11, 2009)

How else would you control this dog though..with a sleeve and thick clothing?


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm not reading this whole thread. I have NEVER liked Cesar, he's a BULL artist. This whole scene, just like all of his "trainings" was totally winged. He makes it up as he goes along. This didn't look so much like dominance, more like a dog that hadn't been trained to just walk on a leash. This dog, like ANY other large breed dog, should have been put down for biting him like that, along with his owners ignorance. Further more, this was something that could have been handled with a muzzle and a prong collar. I didn't see any actual abuse, but I will say BRAVO to Cesar for tricking people into believing that everything is a dominance issue and that it's okay for a dog to bite the crap out of you because you can just go ahead and buy his book to fix it.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Czar said:


> How else would you control this dog though..with a sleeve and thick clothing?


Well, his methods claim to be about pack leadership. I first thought of a sleeve/bite suit, but that's my burned out brain for the day for ya lmfao. Lisa said a muzzle which would be a lot more effective lmao


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

ABPT Steve said:


> *I didnt say he invented dog training, or that there werent other great dog trainers! I said he knows more about dogs and dog training than anybody on this FORUM, especially the thread starter! Ceaser milan is definitely a great dog trainer! The lady is criticizing him about kicking the dog & doesnt even realize he always uses that technique! He pretty much tapped the dog to break his attention away from the other dog when he started to focus on it, he actually realized the warning signs and knew what was gonna happen next, he was called in to help train an aggressive dog! He didnt kick the dog to stir up a reaction to get him to attack! SMH!*


Oh Boy! Cesar groupies will always argue that he walks on water! lol
While I do not agree with Deb about him being cruel you are really just talking out your keester by saying she does not know what she is talking about. She is one of the most knowledgeable people on the site. It is ok to disagree about about training but to say someone has no clue what they are talking about without really knowing that person only makes you look bad.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Well, his methods claim to be about pack leadership. I first thought of a sleeve/bite suit, but that's my burned out brain for the day for ya lmfao. Lisa said a muzzle which would be a lot more effective lmao


He could have muzzled the dog but that is not what I was talking about. I was talking about he needed to be a muzzle length away from his teeth, like a head length, you know what I mean? lol


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> He could have muzzled the dog but that is not what I was talking about. I was talking about he needed to be a muzzle length away from his teeth, like a head length, you know what I mean? lol


That's why you're the freaking professional lmfao


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Oh Boy! Cesar groupies will always argue that he walks on water! lol
> While I do not agree with Deb about him being cruel you are really just talking out your keester by saying she does not know what she is talking about. She is one of the most knowledgeable people on the site. It is ok to disagree about about training but to say someone has no clue what they are talking about without really knowing that person only makes you look bad.


i 2nd that:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## ABPT Steve (Dec 30, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Oh Boy! Cesar groupies will always argue that he walks on water! lol
> While I do not agree with Deb about him being cruel you are really just talking out your keester by saying she does not know what she is talking about. She is one of the most knowledgeable people on the site. It is ok to disagree about about training but to say someone has no clue what they are talking about without really knowing that person only makes you look bad.


*Not a ceaser groupie, just stating the obvious! She sure doesnt sound like she knows a lot, just because you rack up thousands of post on a forum or become a "moderator" doesnt mean much! Especially when you dont realize he "kicked" the dog to break its attention when it started focusing on the other dog it has previously been aggressive towards! Behavior he was brought there to change! *


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## Czar (Nov 11, 2009)

ABPT Steve said:


> *Not a ceaser groupie, just stating the obvious! She sure doesnt sound like she knows a lot, just because you rack up thousands of post on a forum or become a "moderator" doesnt mean much! Especially when you dont realize he "kicked" the dog to break its attention when it started focusing on the other dog it has previously been aggressive towards! Behavior he was brought there to change! *


upruns:upruns:upruns:upruns:


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

ABPT Steve said:


> *Not a ceaser groupie, just stating the obvious! She sure doesnt sound like she knows a lot, just because you rack up thousands of post on a forum or become a "moderator" doesnt mean much! Especially when you dont realize he "kicked" the dog to break its attention when it started focusing on the other dog it has previously been aggressive towards! Behavior he was brought there to change! *


Hmm.... well, performance trained a couple of my dogs... she's trained some of Cheryl Caragans dogs... she's trained ernie simms dog... she has had a few movie contracts... her dogs have been on bill boards... ribbons and trophies... how many trophies does Cesar have under his belt?

Giesthexe... she has been a trainer for as long as I've ever known of her. She's well respected within the field.

Howard is also a member on here very well known and respected within the field. He, probably has more experience than both of these two put together.... which is at least 30 years.

These three people are not respected because of a tv show. They are respected for the work that they have done time and time again... not for the millions of dollars of a corporate sponsor, but rather for the love of the animals. They don't claim to fix a dog within a thirty minute tv blip... they give you realistic expectations as well as timelines.


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## ABPT Steve (Dec 30, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Hmm.... well, performance trained a couple of my dogs... she's trained some of Cheryl Caragans dogs... she's trained ernie simms dog... she has had a few movie contracts... her dogs have been on bill boards... ribbons and trophies... how many trophies does Cesar have under his belt?
> 
> Giesthexe... she has been a trainer for as long as I've ever known of her. She's well respected within the field.
> 
> ...


*Im not really knocking them, i seen perfomances page and sig before, his dogs look great! What im saying is that just because you post all the time on a forum doesnt make you the most knowledgeable person on dogs, and i surely dont think any of these people would think about comparing themselves to cesear milian! I also see the ignorance in this thread, your last sentence proves you are biased as are others and really dont know what you are talking about! Cesear never "claims to fix a dog in 30 mins!" He always says that the owners will need to keep up the training and lets them know where they went wrong in the first place! He tries to fix the human faults as well as the dogs! All and all, he is just out to help people and really loves dogs! and he still gets hate, because people are HATERS! Seems like jealousy if you ask me!
*


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## betsy09 (Jan 3, 2010)

Not a cesar groupie either. I just saw the size of the dog and I think he taught the dog who was alpha. In under 5 minutes! A denim jacket would've been better than a miami shirt though...LOL!!
I'm sure there are many knowledgeable folks in this site. From time to time people will disagree. I've been training German Shepherds and Chow Chows since I was 10 (Betsy is my first Pit)......an aggressive/dominant dogs requires aggressive/dominant (not abusive) measures. Cesar did a great job!


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## Ottis Driftwood (Mar 16, 2006)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Well, in my respectful opinion... I don't think it's fare to lump domesticated dogs such as the GSD, Mals into the same category as the Wolf. The second thing that was rediculous for me personally, was that he was ignorant enough to wear a thin shirt of t-shirt material as your only source of protection from a dog who has known aggression issues. It could have been a lot more.... ummm... calm. He wouldn't have had to string the dog up, he could have let the dog bite, and gain control over the dog immediately. He absolutely was clueless on what to do when that dog was going after him.


Great post


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Putting that type of dog in that situation is wrong. A "little tap" to a regular old house dog is nothing because his genetic program tells him he's already half beat. (selective breeding for exactly that) A "little tap" to a dog bred like that (which could be animal cruelty in it's own right) is going to taken very differently. He's good with dogs and I agree with his philosophy to a certain extent but he set his goal a little out of reach with that one. I'd be embarrassed if I was him. He should have know better. That's no leash ornament.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

I actually watched this episode, I see nothing wrong with it. He handled it the same as I would have. However, I agree that there could of been a better lead used..
**NOTE** He did not kick the dog, He checked the dog. A submissive, balanced dog would not not have reacted that way. All the more reason that dog needed help..JMHO


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## Patch09 (Apr 23, 2009)

That dog would have bit my face off, I give ceasar credit for handling him the way he did, this just coming from a normal dog owner....


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

Even if the kick was to provoke, he provoked the behavior he wanted to fix and it looks like he did just that.

I can't believe someone recommended putting him down instead of going through Cesar's "cruelty". He is probably a lot better dog and his family is happy. No dog should react like that after being tapped by a human.

I'm not a Cesar groupie, hell I've seen one show but you have to give credit where it's due. He did a great job of calming that dog down and I will show the same respect to anyone that can accomplish that(Cause I know I can't), regardless of the training method.


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## CallieBum73 (Aug 29, 2009)

I dont see the cruelty in this either. I dont see anyone offering up any other better way to of handled this out of control aggressive dog other than wearing different clothes or perhapse a muzzle. Dont see how either would of changed the dogs behavior! They paid for Ceasers way of training and thats what they got!


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

jmejiaa said:


> Even if the kick was to provoke, he provoked the behavior he wanted to fix and it looks like he did just that.
> 
> I can't believe someone recommended putting him down instead of going through Cesar's "cruelty". He is probably a lot better dog and his family is happy. No dog should react like that after being tapped by a human.
> 
> I'm not a Cesar groupie, hell I've seen one show but you have to give credit where it's due. He did a great job of calming that dog down and I will show the same respect to anyone that can accomplish that(Cause I know I can't), regardless of the training method.


I don't think Reddoggy was saying they should put him down instead of putting him through Cesar's cruelty.He was saying they should put him down because he bit someone.That's what I would do anyways.There is no way I would ever trust a dog again after biting someone.


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

dixieland said:


> I don't think Reddoggy was saying they should put him down instead of putting him through Cesar's cruelty.He was saying they should put him down because he bit someone.That's what I would do anyways.There is no way I would ever trust a dog again after biting someone.


Yes yes, but still, he totally changed that dog in a matter of minutes. We don't know if it will stick but that was amazing IMO...

I wouldn't trust my dog if he bit me either but I guess the owners thought it wasn't that bad and had him worked on...

Either way, I know nothing about training professionally so I guess I'll retire from this thread


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

ABPT Steve said:


> *All i will say is that ceaser knows more about dogs and dog training than anybody on this forum! Thats why he gets paid millions, and we sit back and post concerns about his techniques! Id like to see anybody do a better job with that "mammal" trying to bite them repeatedly! Ceaser remained calm and got the dominant dog to submit... Job Well Done!*


I didn't know you could talk out of your rear end! I learn new things every day!


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't know about this one....I know that my old dog tasha(GSD) tried to take me out on a couple of times. lol(okay its not funny but I can laugh about it now). And I had to do something similar or risk her injuring me seriously.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> Putting that type of dog in that situation is wrong. A "little tap" to a regular old house dog is nothing because his genetic program tells him he's already half beat. (selective breeding for exactly that) A "little tap" to a dog bred like that (which could be animal cruelty in it's own right) is going to taken very differently. He's good with dogs and I agree with his philosophy to a certain extent but he set his goal a little out of reach with that one. I'd be embarrassed if I was him. He should have know better. That's no leash ornament.


Well said!!!!


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## KnineGuy (Mar 14, 2009)

its not like he kicked the dog to hurt him....that is used to distract the dog from what it is doing at that sec. and makes them refocus on you.
there is nothing wrong with what cesar does with dogs. 
if you wanna hug a dog who is trying to bite you go ahead.

but there is a reason why cesar is on tv and has helped so many pitbulls and helped the way alot of ppl see our breed....his dog daddy has changed so many ppls minds about the breed.


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

KnineGuy said:


> its not like he kicked the dog to hurt him....that is used to distract the dog from what it is doing at that sec. and makes them refocus on you.
> there is nothing wrong with what cesar does with dogs.
> if you wanna hug a dog who is trying to bite you go ahead.
> 
> but there is a reason why cesar is on tv and has helped so many pitbulls and helped the way alot of ppl see our breed....his dog daddy has changed so many ppls minds about the breed.


That is one thing that everyone on this forum should be happy about, his Pitbull daddy is an awesome dog and is changing peoples view on the breed. He also just got a Pitbull Pup that will be his dog when Daddy goes as Daddy is old.

To bad he doesn't show him as often on his shows.


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## KnineGuy (Mar 14, 2009)

jmejiaa said:


> That is one thing that everyone on this forum should be happy about, his Pitbull daddy is an awesome dog and is changing peoples view on the breed. He also just got a Pitbull Pup that will be his dog when Daddy goes as Daddy is old.
> 
> To bad he doesn't show him as often on his shows.


well daddy is semi retired right now....he does not use him much at all and Jr. is the blue pup he has had with daddy since he got him so when Jr. is ready im sure we will see alot more of him


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I love his technique and see NOTHING wrong with what he does.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

great way to provoke a dog even more.


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## Mom_of_Kambo (Nov 11, 2009)

geisthexe said:


> DONT YOU GUYS SEE HE FIRST KICKS THE DOG WITH HIS LEG FROM BEHIND TO MAKE THE DOG REACT?
> He used a leather slip lead that had NO slip to it.
> Next he is choking the dog until the dogs tongue is turning BLUE
> 
> ...


Alright.... You might as well call me cruel then. To make Kambo and Tex... and even Valor (when we had her) Really any dog we have..I do it to Lady (shetland sheepdog).......In order to make our dogs listen and act right with the heel command we give them a quick tap much like Caesar did in the video. It doesn't hurt the dog by no means if done right. ALL IT DOES IS MAKE THEM LISTEN AND DRAW THEIR ATTENTION BACK TO WHAT IS BEING ASKED OF THEM!!! Some people may not like it but most dogs will be hard headed sometime or another and need that quick tap to get back right. IMO That training tap as I would call it is better than wooping the pee out of them with the end of the leash. Which I've seen some people do that...NO!! That is what I would consider animal abuse but....I respect other peoples way of doing things as well. As far as the choking matter goes... I have a cheap version of his leash like he uses all the time. It can choke the dog yes... but when you ease up on it, it loosens up. You say you every now and then use a prong/shock collar. A LOT A LOT of people DO NOT like those AT ALL!!!! I personally don't like the shock collar but then again like I said ealiar.. I respect the fact that that's the way some people do things. So I'm not going to get mad about it. That's just the way it is. A prong collar I would use on Valor and Valor only (Olde English Bulldog 100lbs approx.) BECAUSE.. I didn't raise her from a puppy she was given to us and her strength was incredible. I looked like I was water skiing on dirt if I didn't use the prong collar. She was one that the reach around tap didn't hardly work without the prong collar also. Anyway I guess what I'm saying is I didn't see ANYTHING wrong with the video except the fact the Caesar got bit. IF he's that smart he wouldn't have gotten bit... but whatever... That's MY OPINION......:woof::rain:


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

gxkon said:


> Originally Posted by ABPT Steve
> Not a ceaser groupie, just stating the obvious! She sure doesnt sound like she knows a lot, just because you rack up thousands of post on a forum or become a "moderator" doesnt mean much! Especially when you dont realize he "kicked" the dog to break its attention when it started focusing on the other dog it has previously been aggressive towards! Behavior he was brought there to change!


You do not need to kick a dog to get it to redirect it attention. you can turn your direction (especially when you do not know the dog / haven't been there in the house) he should have found a better way to redirect. But kicking soft hard it does not matter. He even states the dogs does not like his legs touched. So why go there except the fact he wanted to make the show exciting and he got bit instead. He bit off more than he could chew so he had to be CRUEL to the dog to get the dog back to what he was trying to do. Plain FACT cruelty. You can say I (Deb/geisthexe or Lisa / Pk) do not know much and that's fine .. b/c just like her I have been training for years and have dogs sent to me from all over. I have even trained a dog from Italy when the gal came here for a Presa Event and loved the way I worked her dog in the show ring (never been shown) then she saw how well behaved my dogs were .. left me the dog and asked me to train all of it obedience. 
So with that do I believe I am the best trainer NO I believe I have studied, been to seminars and got certified b/c I love helping dogs and folks with their family, show or working dog. Plain and simple!


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## KnineGuy (Mar 14, 2009)

now now dont get all mad this is funny and you know it


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

KnineGuy said:


> now now dont get all mad this is funny and you know it


Thats messed up


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## KnineGuy (Mar 14, 2009)

Mcleod15 said:


> Thats messed up


come on thats funny....im rolling over here as soon as i saw that pic i knew i had to post it...ppl got ot laugh a little


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

KnineGuy said:


> now now dont get all mad this is funny and you know it


yeah it is i just hate to see people talking out the side of there a$$ when they dont know no better i hate it when the haters come out funny picture though rep for givein me a goo luagh


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

KnineGuy said:


> come on thats funny....im rolling over here as soon as i saw that pic i knew i had to post it...ppl got ot laugh a little


Its funny that you showed a photo of yourself ... but who buttocks are you kissen again in that photo?


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## pitbulljojo (Apr 2, 2009)

Im going to chime in with my 2 cents worth. I watch Ceasar and other trainers. I also have my own trainer. " hanging" works for aggresive dogs or dogs out of control. However , I'm 5'2'' and 105 pounds . I handle 80pound APBT's - hanging is not going to work for me - i've tried it. But my trainer uses it and it is effective. The "kick' does work for getting a dogs attention. We have high prey drive dogs and sometimes they will "zone in" on a prey object { cat, squirrel etc} . A yank on the prong and a kick in the ribs will break thier fixation. You dont haul off and kick the dog , but if your dog is on your left side you use your right foot to give the dogs a nudge in the ribs. This also works for dogs that lean on you.Not every technique works for every dog - know you dog and find a good reputable trainer who are used to working bully types


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

I don't like the guy, but I didn't see anything cruel. I was reading on the Leerburg site about his dominant dog collars so I could help my uncle with his dog who has bit multiple people. It looks like he did almost exactly what he was supposed to. I don't think tapping a dog with your foot should result in the dog trying to eat you or put you in your place. Regardless if the dog likes or dislikes his legs touched. They should learn a person can and will touch you any where they darn well please, and if you attack them your gonna be put in your place. I don't remember if it was on Leerburg too or not but I read somewhere that prong collars are not good to use by themselves on a handler agressive dog.


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## KnineGuy (Mar 14, 2009)

geisthexe said:


> Its funny that you showed a photo of yourself ... but who buttocks are you kissen again in that photo?


that would be redog's butt i figured if your going to kiss butt might as well reach for the stars...lol

weird thing tho....it smelled of grape jelly and garlic thats a odd combo 

:goodpost:


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## Akasha (Oct 30, 2009)

Being a Wolf Hybrid owner (father was 100% timber wolf/mother British Columbian and Malimute-sp-), I am fully aware of the capabilities that this breed has. I do think that the dog had a few temperment issues, but I don't agree it was animal abuse (or cruel). With that particular breed you have to be ready for anything (this goes with Huskeys to). They are naturally wild dogs, and it takes a lot of patience and work to keep them sound.


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

i have never seen a 80 pound apbt only seen bullys that big


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## scparrish (Jan 8, 2010)

So nudging, tapping, or pushing your dog is cruel? So if that is cruel what do you use to get the dog out of the locked in mode? The guy isnt my favorite but he has helped the breed and the only thing that was wrong was not preventing himself from getting bit but thats JMO.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

IMO the cruelty begins when you try to leash a wild animal and expect it to react like a regular dog. Granted that's not a pure wolf, but it's not a pure dog either. I would never feed a dog that I had to choke out or pin down. Doesn't seem right to me to break any dogs spirit. Get the right dog to match your shoes. That one belongs in the woods, not on a leash.


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

scparrish said:


> So nudging, tapping, or pushing your dog is cruel? So if that is cruel what do you use to get the dog out of the locked in mode? The guy isnt my favorite but he has helped the breed and the only thing that was wrong was not preventing himself from getting bit but thats JMO.


its not really a lock its the dogs drive that keeps them holding on and u use a break stick if u own a pit u should have one handy


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

KnineGuy said:


> now now dont get all mad this is funny and you know it


:rofl::rofl::rofl: Yeah that was pretty funny:woof:


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## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

KnineGuy said:


> now now dont get all mad this is funny and you know it


That's funny, but it's funnier with Cesar's head!!!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Man you guys are killing me!!! :rofl:


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

i think prong collars are more cruel than taping a dog with your foot.


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## scparrish (Jan 8, 2010)

gxkon said:


> its not really a lock its the dogs drive that keeps them holding on and u use a break stick if u own a pit u should have one handy


Not literally locked on with their mouth but when they are locked in with their stare down.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I just read page 1 and don't think I'll be reading the rest, LOL! Let's just say that if a dog was coming at me with the intent to hurt me, I would string it up as well. And I have heel-bumped my own dogs when they were fixating on something or crowding me on walks.


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

lol i touched a nerve sorry for the language yall


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## Gnarley44 (Jul 11, 2009)

I dont see any cruelty in this video. Just Ceasr trying to dominate a big dog. Thats not a kick, that is barely a tap. Just to snap the dog out of it. He needed to prob who was in charge and he came out the Alpha. Nothing wrong with that. Also, he had to put the dog in that position in order to rehabilitate him. He is not a trainer he rehbilitates dogs and we should respect him for that. The mans has nerves of steel. And whats wrong with a person geting a lucky break and making millions? isnt that what we all want?? C'mon guys stop the hate.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

The hate isn't towards his money, it's towards his methods and his publicity. I know a woman, not gonna call her out, that LOVES him and thinks that he knows all. Well, since she's been following him, she's been through a number of "bad" dogs because everything can be taken care of by being MORE dominant and going Tsssssss! I NEVER followed ANY trainer and my dogs listen just fine. Cept for Lugz, he stole a taco the other day and I'm still mad LOL


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## shalynn19 (Sep 6, 2009)

I don't see any cruelty from this video as far as the training goes, the tap that everyone is calling a kick is to get the dogs attention off the other dog since tugging the leash obviously isn't working. I have owned wolf hybrids, 2 to be exact and they are not house dogs or pets. The two i had i ended up letting a rescue group take them. I was young and stupid and thought a wolf hybrid would be cool to own. the cruelty i see in this video is the owner trying to turn a wild animal into a house pet. Yea wolf hybrids are cool animals and i love them but they need a lot of room and don't like being confined in any way weather it be on a leash, in a house or in a kennel. So yea i would say the cruel part is the owner of this animal trying to turn it into a house dog and obviously not having the skill or knowledge to know how to handle this animal


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## betsy09 (Jan 3, 2010)

reddoggy said:


> The hate isn't towards his money, it's towards his methods and his publicity. I know a woman, not gonna call her out, that LOVES him and thinks that he knows all. Well, since she's been following him, she's been through a number of "bad" dogs because everything can be taken care of by being MORE dominant and going Tsssssss! I NEVER followed ANY trainer and my dogs listen just fine. Cept for Lugz, he stole a taco the other day and I'm still mad LOL


Lugz deserves a burrito for being so sly!!! LOL


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

That wasn't a husky - that was a wolf hybrid


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> IMO the cruelty begins when you try to leash a wild animal and expect it to react like a regular dog. Granted that's not a pure wolf, but it's not a pure dog either. I would never feed a dog that I had to choke out or pin down. Doesn't seem right to me to break any dogs spirit. Get the right dog to match your shoes. That one belongs in the woods, not on a leash.


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## Mom_of_Kambo (Nov 11, 2009)

Anyways I think it's fair to say a majority regardless what type of dog / hybrid it was , agree there was not cruelty in the video. Just Cesar being kinda stupid for allowing his self to get bit. and that Most of us on here use the "kick" sometimes if not all the time when our dogs are being hard headed.


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

Those bites were nothing, I have seen Cesar take much worse. The EB that fixated on the hose made him gush blood, if he didnt need stitches I would be surprised. When you rehab dogs you will eventually get bitten. That heel tap was an attention grabber, dogs play with each other much harder than that, heck, Lady nearly knocked herself out running into the door once, it was open, she hit the thin part because she was looking over her shoulder lol.


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

I watched the video like 10 times, and each time I realized that although I don't like Cesar at all, I would have done the same. I mean, I probably couldn't have strung the dog up since i am 100 lbs and not very tall, the dog probably weighed as much/more than me, but regardless I am not interested in letting that dog rip my arm off instead of choking it out. i would tap my dog like that also, if that dog is supposed to be a family's pet, then why not tap it also? and even in the picture, i couldn't tell the dog's tongue was blue. i watched for the blue tongue a lot and didn't really see much, although it COULD have been.

i think he handled it pretty well. *shrug*


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## OREBACLUBS (Dec 30, 2009)

I like the dude


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## Czar (Nov 11, 2009)

tssssssssssssssssssssssssssssst


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

Czar said:


> tssssssssssssssssssssssssssssst


Loved the south park episode with Cesar in it...


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## PeanutsMommy (Sep 21, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> I just read page 1 and don't think I'll be reading the rest, LOL! Let's just say that if a dog was coming at me with the intent to hurt me, I would string it up as well. And I have heel-bumped my own dogs when they were fixating on something or crowding me on walks.


:goodpost:

i agree with you.
i did not see that as cruel. you do what you have to when a dog is behaving like that. the dog may have been exhausted (which is all it looked like to me) but the dog was fine overall..if the dog died well then that would be a bit different but still..until you deal with a dog like that yourself and see what you would do when a huge dog is trying to tear into you its real hard to judge that as cruelty..IMO


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## megz (Jul 25, 2008)

Sorry, i am not gonna read all the posts on this, so i apoligize if this repeats statements or offends, whatever... all i have to say is; one, i watched the vid and i can't see how that would be "cruelty". If i had a dog bite at me, i wouldn't think twice to put myself back into control, which it looks "to me", what he did.
secondly, do i agree with everything this man does? No. He comes at training and behavior different than i do. does that make him wrong??? eh, not for me to judge. Do i have to agree, again, no. should i take a moment to maybe learn something??? YES!!!! 

when we stop learning is the day we admit we are better than anyone else. I personally don't want to meet that person....
JMO


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

I also posted this on another site and this is a tid bit of what was talked about:



> Carey: I only watched the video once....say the dog go after him numerous times-- successfully. I'll bite--- what would *you* have done with a dog who is attacking you in such a manner. If there are better alternatives, I'm open to learning....


DEB: 
1. I would have NEVER went out on a leather slip lead with a dog I don't know but knowing it had anger issue with other dogs or being touched in places. 
2. I would have put a prong on w/ a muzzle
3. Never would I have kicked, tapped the dog in an area they do not like being touched (hence the legs / stomach area) to being the dog focus back to me from the border collie, I would have taken the dog and turned to go another direction. 
4. So with that said I fully understand and agree on hanging the dog if you cannot get the dog back in control and the dog is biting but he provoked it. Yes I would have done the same and I have to my mal when he went after a dog but I use a prong on him .. hung for a moment then he settled. 
5. There is just to much force being done to that dog for what he was trying to make a point on. JMO ...



> I thought I was the only one who saw this - "the dog was ONLY going for the arm that had the leash" Caesar was all about submission and not even reading the dogs behavior, stress level, etc. Caesar immediately wanted control, never adhering to the dog's fears.


I really do not care if you all agree or disagree with me .. I came across that video and I also have another one of him being mean to another dog (shepherd) He should not be on TV .. he is just a problem waiting to happen ..Seen it to many times thru my years of training.


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## NMWAPBT (Jan 9, 2010)

i think the guy does good things jmo i like him


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## betsy09 (Jan 3, 2010)

hey Deb!
Can u post the Shepherd Vid?? 
I wanna see....


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

I think both those who love and those who hate Cesar can be a bit extreme. He's not God, he lives, breathes, and bleeds just like any other person, but I wouldn't say he's an idiot either, he's quite knowledgable and gets results. As for the animal cruelty, I have a hard time convincing myself of that, especially considering the situation at hand. Any situation can be handled differently, what's the most effective can be pretty subjective, and it's easier to think of better methods or preparations with the cool calculation of hindsight. In the moment it's a pretty different thought process going on.

I find one of the more common complaints with Cesar is a lack of preperation, leaving himself vulnerable, or contestment of the effectiveness of his approaches. A lot of this is well-reasoned. I can't really say for sure but from what I understand he comes into these situations with little more than a general understanding of the issues. He doesn't really have first-hand experience with the dogs in question. It seems in his philosophy that the primary objective is to obtain the "pack leader" or dominant position over the dog. To encourage in the dog a "calm submissiveness." He likes to do this with as little as possible so it's not so much a tool that is obtaining the dominance but the person and their "energy." While I can acknowledge the reason behind this, I find it also leaves him vulnerable. He seems to understand that though and accept it as a worthwhile risk. I also do not think he opposes the use of any particular tool, such as the prong collar, if it is necessary. He also seems to work with what the owner's have, as I have seen dogs on prong before on the show. This is just speculation, I'm not speaking as an authority on any of this.

Personally I do not disagree with the methods in any major way that I witnessed in the original video. I may approach things differently but to each their own. I tired seeing if the dog's tongue was blue but the quality wasn't there for me. Maybe on a diff set up or a better video I could see. Also in defense of wolf hybrids, I've loved mine for many years now and she's been one of the most amazing dogs I've owned. The potentials there. 

Cheers


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Demios said:


> I think both those who love and those who hate Cesar can be a bit extreme. He's not God, he lives, breathes, and bleeds just like any other person, but I wouldn't say he's an idiot either, he's quite knowledgable and gets results. As for the animal cruelty, I have a hard time convincing myself of that, especially considering the situation at hand. Any situation can be handled differently, what's the most effective can be pretty subjective, and it's easier to think of better methods or preparations with the cool calculation of hindsight. In the moment it's a pretty different thought process going on.
> 
> I find one of the more common complaints with Cesar is a lack of preperation, leaving himself vulnerable, or contestment of the effectiveness of his approaches. A lot of this is well-reasoned. I can't really say for sure but from what I understand he comes into these situations with little more than a general understanding of the issues. He doesn't really have first-hand experience with the dogs in question. It seems in his philosophy that the primary objective is to obtain the "pack leader" or dominant position over the dog. To encourage in the dog a "calm submissiveness." He likes to do this with as little as possible so it's not so much a tool that is obtaining the dominance but the person and their "energy." While I can acknowledge the reason behind this, I find it also leaves him vulnerable. He seems to understand that though and accept it as a worthwhile risk. I also do not think he opposes the use of any particular tool, such as the prong collar, if it is necessary. He also seems to work with what the owner's have, as I have seen dogs on prong before on the show. This is just speculation, I'm not speaking as an authority on any of this.
> 
> ...


The problem is with him. When you go to a training seminar and he decides to bring his presents. He acts like he is a god. Most of your lack of knowledge trainers will run up to talk to him just to feed is BIG HEAD. The older trainers just ignore him.

He doesnt come to learn as the last one I saw him at. He stayed out in the lobby where the venders where (at his vender booth to sign autographs) Sorry but he is just a TV celebrate .. NO MORE...

But All who love him .. keep on lovin 

(((Yeah I will post the shepherd (2 of them) today)))


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

I didn't see any cruelty, and as for him not being on TV... there are alot of things that shouldn't be on TV, yet they are on anyways. So as I say in spanish "nimodo" (too bad).


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

I'll ask, 

Would you hate another trainer 'X' with the same passion if he/she employed the same method?

No offense but I don't think you hate him. You disagree with his methods but HATE the fact that he is on TV and is a celebrity and other people including other trainers do agree with him. I think you see him as a "sell out"?

I dunno, I don't know u at all and would never judge you based on a forum, just what I get from reading the thread.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I dont see animal cruelty when I watch that video.....


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## pitbulljojo (Apr 2, 2009)

I think that everyone has to "know their dog". What works for one doesnt work for another. With 5 APBT with 5 different temprements each one gets something a little different. One you can be heavy handed with , another lays flat on the floor shaking if you raise yous voice to. My 80pound APBT { Yes 80 pounds, Razors Edge.Bred by us} gets very zoned in on prey so a yank and kick is appropriate. His sister doesnt need that. My best advice is find a good trainer . Go watch the classes before signing up and make sure he has experience working with your breed of dog


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Hating him .. I have met him and he is a Jerk 
Hating the fact that he is on TV .. I believe they could have found a much better trainer. Not saying me or Lisa etc .. But there are WAY Much better trainers out there in the world.

About him knowing the dog .. He dont know that dog .. so why provoke the dog. So I feel him hanging the dog was bad NO .. I believe he should have used much better skills from the start of the walk. He does not know how to read dogs Period..

Oprah .. Helped him get his TV show .. What the Hell does that woman know about DOGS .. she wants all of our Bull Breed killed.

The cruelity that I am stating is plan and simple .. He never read the dog, he provoked the dog issue, and he did not know how to handle it. B/c if he did .. he would have NEVER been bit.

Cesar M... Shocking a shepherd .. but yet hides the electric devise. He shocks that dog so much that the lady gets scratched by her own cat. Why would you use a shock collar to get a dog to like a cat ..






Cesar M.... knowing when to go to a REAL trainer .... Now I like the PSA trainer ..






So whatcha think of these videos?


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## shalynn19 (Sep 6, 2009)

geisthexe said:


> Hating him .. I have met him and he is a Jerk
> Hating the fact that he is on TV .. I believe they could have found a much better trainer. Not saying me or Lisa etc .. But there are WAY Much better trainers out there in the world.
> 
> About him knowing the dog .. He dont know that dog .. so why provoke the dog. So I feel him hanging the dog was bad NO .. I believe he should have used much better skills from the start of the walk. He does not know how to read dogs Period..
> ...


I don't agree at all with shock collars never have. and the last one i saw that episode. But i def don't agree with the first one shock collars are not the way to train a dog. Plus that one looks like my GS lol


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

geisthexe said:


> Hating him .. I have met him and he is a Jerk
> Hating the fact that he is on TV .. I believe they could have found a much better trainer. Not saying me or Lisa etc .. But there are WAY Much better trainers out there in the world.
> 
> About him knowing the dog .. He dont know that dog .. so why provoke the dog. So I feel him hanging the dog was bad NO .. I believe he should have used much better skills from the start of the walk. He does not know how to read dogs Period..
> ...


That was a TV remote.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

With a lanyard attached to it? IMO it kinda looks like one of these. Definitely not stepping into this one again except for this post.

Dogtra


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> With a lanyard attached to it? IMO it kinda looks like one of these. Definitely not stepping into this one again except for this post.
> 
> Dogtra


I was being sarcastic, I've also been avoiding this one


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

That is a known fact that on the black GSD he is using a remote E collar with the dog. IMO that is just stupid since as soon as he leaves and in a few weeks that dog is going to eat the cat when the owners are not paying attention. The fact that he hides the collar is another major reason I do not like him. He gives the impression his stupid little tsssss was the reason the dog jumped into the air. Give me a break! he is so deceiving to the public and has them fooled.....

I use E collars all the time for certain behavior issues but if the dog is crying in pain then he has no clue how to use them. It should not be that high and in fact it could cause more aggression than stop it.

Bernhard (a great trainer form Germany) said it best when I was at his seminar about 8 years ago....
An e collar in the hands of a novice is like giving a monkey a razor blad...... nothing good can come of it.

I think he is a novice, I have seen how he uses the e collar and IMO he is not that great compared to other trainers.

ok now I am staying out again


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

geisthexe said:


> Cesar M.... knowing when to go to a REAL trainer .... Now I like the PSA trainer ..


LMAO I like it how the real trainer knows how to handle that dog and Cesar could not control him in the parking lot! 
I also like how the real trainer took that crappy collar that Cesar is selling all over the place. I see ppl come into the training center with those things on and still cannot control their dogs. Didn't his wife design it or something?

That PSA trainer should have his own show! Oh maybe he does not have to be on tv to prove he is a good trainer 
:goodpost: good videos for everyone to see.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

performanceknls said:


> LMAO I like it how the real trainer knows how to handle that dog and Cesar could not control him in the parking lot!
> I also like how the real trainer took that crappy collar that Cesar is selling all over the place. I see ppl come into the training center with those things on and still cannot control their dogs. Didn't his wife design it or something?
> 
> That PSA trainer should have his own show! Oh maybe he does not have to be on tv to prove he is a good trainer
> :goodpost: good videos for everyone to see.


I could not agree with you more.... Troy (PSA trainer) should have his own show. He does prove that he can handle the dog and do it correct w/o aggression or being dominate.


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## betsy09 (Jan 3, 2010)

geisthexe said:


> Hating him .. I have met him and he is a Jerk
> Hating the fact that he is on TV .. I believe they could have found a much better trainer. Not saying me or Lisa etc .. But there are WAY Much better trainers out there in the world.
> 
> About him knowing the dog .. He dont know that dog .. so why provoke the dog. So I feel him hanging the dog was bad NO .. I believe he should have used much better skills from the start of the walk. He does not know how to read dogs Period..
> ...


Very Interesing. I definitely like OJ's methods. See, the guy actually runs a training method with dogs and you can see he knows what to do to channel their energy. The shock collar was a bit much. It was quite repetitive and even the dog was like "stop with that shock $#it you're doing to me". I would love to see how OJ deals with the "wolf hybrid". Thanks Deb!!! Very insightful!!!


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

I think he handled the wolf dog very well in the first one. The shepard, clearly it was pacing and uncomfortable, it even redirected aggression out of frustration on his own master. there are other ways to deal with that situation that willnot have that poor shepard yelping and hiding in pain from the e collar. I never used them..never will I think that is cruel! and i hope that lady didn't pay his a$$ for that horrid lesson. I'd have dropped him like a dime if he ever came near my dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so I do see the cruelty in the second video since the dog was in destress and clearly was in pain


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

geisthexe said:


> The problem is with him. When you go to a training seminar and he decides to bring his presents. He acts like he is a god. Most of your lack of knowledge trainers will run up to talk to him just to feed is BIG HEAD. The older trainers just ignore him.
> 
> He doesnt come to learn as the last one I saw him at. He stayed out in the lobby where the venders where (at his vender booth to sign autographs) Sorry but he is just a TV celebrate .. NO MORE...
> 
> ...


Most people don't have this first-hand experience that you clearly do. They don't have anything outside of the TV to gauge his personality by really. It's obvious why then they'd keep on loving.

Now I can understand your anger towards him, however I dunno if I'd go as far as saying he does not know how to read dogs. That's taking it a bit out there as, imo again, he has seemed to on many occasions able to read the dogs very well and quite early. While some of his methods and theory may be disagreeable or inaccurate he is clearly knowledgeable and the backbone of his theory is quite widely accepted.

What really concerned me about the black GSD and the E Collar is not only the use of it, when it was applied, etc, in that situation, but the way the collar was hid from the audience. If it were to be used it should very well state it is getting used. People can easily see this and think it was just a matter of energy beating the dog into submission metaphysically that achieved that result. This is a dangerous assumption to take into a situation like that if someone is compelled to reinact in order to train their own dog. In that circumstance I cannot help but say that treatment was cruel and inappropriate.

I understand that it is necessary to provoke or encourage the problematic behavior in order to address and correct it. However, the way in which it is done and the setting used to do so in the black GSD I have many problems with and would not have done it the same. The deception by not making it blatantly obvious to those watching that an E collar was in use is very troublesome.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Demios said:


> Most people don't have this first-hand experience that you clearly do. They don't have anything outside of the TV to gauge his personality by really. It's obvious why then they'd keep on loving.
> 
> Now I can understand your anger towards him, however I dunno if I'd go as far as saying he does not know how to read dogs. That's taking it a bit out there as, imo again, he has seemed to on many occasions able to read the dogs very well and quite early. While some of his methods and theory may be disagreeable or inaccurate he is clearly knowledgeable and the backbone of his theory is quite widely accepted.
> 
> ...


I understand most folks do not have the first hand experience but anyone could. I have just dedicated myself to the dog world. So this is why I love being on this board helping others.

The only reason again why I dislike him is b/c there are so many better trainers in the world that could actually teach something .. Oh well 
I just wish folks would see he is ONLY a TV Celeberty NO more NO less. Others write what he is suppose to say ... hence making him the guru

Oh well .. can only help one at a time  .

I want to thanks everyone for really taking a notice of the thread, videos and giving your input. I am happy it was brought to a light some may agree and some may not and thats ok we all have our own choices...


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES (Jan 15, 2009)

anyone with any knowledge of dog training can see that there is nothing wrong with how mr. milan handled that dog. my family owns and operates a couple dog training facilities and everything i know and have ever been taught he handled that dog exactly textbook. i was speaking upon ceaser correcting the dog trying to bite him.


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## Geiapit (Jan 29, 2010)

[URL=http://leerburg.com/746.htm said:


> Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar[/URL]
> 
> Copied from Leerburg
> 
> The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time.


Years ago I knew a woman who raised and trained Malamutes. She told me when a dog reachs a year old she would hang them from their front legs from her front porch ceiling rafters. I was shocked that anyone could be that cruel.
I asked why she would do such a thing and she told me because they are very close to being wild by nature and they have to know I have the power of life or death over them.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Geiapit said:


> Years ago I knew a woman who raised and trained Malamutes. She told me when a dog reachs a year old she would hang them from their front legs from her front porch ceiling rafters. I was shocked that anyone could be that cruel.
> I asked why she would do such a thing and she told me because they are very close to being wild by nature and they have to know I have the power of life or death over them.


I have to disagree ..

I have very close breeder friends who raise Malamutes and Huskys, they have time and time again about how you need to keep them working in a job.

You start yearly with a good balance of training and working job 
You do not have to be cruel to them just have them be a good dog. 
One of my best friends has the most titled husky male in Obedience / Agility and he loves what he does.

But to each there own ...


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

As for the lady with the cat issue... get rid of the cat - problem solved


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## Bobby_hill (Nov 14, 2009)

not a big deal that cesar is doing this, but Non professionals should never attempt it. I hate when people watch the dog whisperer then think they are him.

and this is a wolf hybrid isn't it?


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

Geiapit said:


> Years ago I knew a woman who raised and trained Malamutes. She told me when a dog reachs a year old she would hang them from their front legs from her front porch ceiling rafters. I was shocked that anyone could be that cruel.
> I asked why she would do such a thing and she told me because they are very close to being wild by nature and they have to know I have the power of life or death over them.


dont know if i could hang a dog id rather pull a ceaser and kik it


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## Isis (Jan 2, 2010)

I think animal training is one of the most disputed professions there is out there. Everyone has different preferences. 

I can understand people's dislike of Cesar mainly through watching certain episodes like the E Collar one. 

In watching that clip, one thing that I considered though was that perhaps he avoided mentioning it to the TV show audience because he is aware of the power of TV influence and does not want just anyone using and possibly abusing the E Collar in their homes. That would be something I could completely understand, and would respect. 

Proper shock collars are not intended to hurt the dog, but to "shock" the dog into associating action with behavior. In proper and controlled circumstances the shock collar can be very effective. I think that the situation that Cesar used it in was far too out of control, and therefor an inappropriate use. However, it is very common practice amoung many trainers to use shock collars in training dogs to divert attention in other animals, especially in open areas. Cesar is not the first to use that method.

Some trainers are more hands on than others, and some believe in letting the animal figure out the redirection on their own. Both approaches can get results, it's totally a matter of preference. If you have an issue with a trainer, you likely have an issue with the method foremost than the person themselves. People are creatures of error, we make mistakes.

From what I understand about Cesar is that in most circumstances (that he does not deem as "red zone" cases) he prefers to used as little tools as possible. He seems to subscribe to the belief of handler influence ("energy") and the wolf pack influence ("pack leader"). In theory he would like to teach the dog how to behave through his own actions rather than tools. I find that approach to be most effective when started early in a dogs life. It also depends how much time you have with the dog. It's important to consider the degree of the dogs social etiquette. Has it even learned to submit before? If not, you may run into some potentially dangerous issues. Cesar seems to accept that though, as I've heard him say he prefers not to know much about the case before hand. 

I personally don't find any cruelty in the video in the first post. From my point of view when Cesar perceived the dog key in on the Border Collie, he tried to associate the behavior with physical contact. Not all dogs (especially dominant ones) are receptive to physical corrections. This one was not, the dog turned his aggression onto Cesar and bit. When that happened he tried his best to restrain him. After a reaction like the initial one (after the tap), you cannot expect the dog not to bite. I personally believe if he had done anything else he definitely would be bit again, as it was physical contact that set him off in the first place. Now, the dog does show possible signs of submission after wards, ie: sitting down, moving around. However, he is all the while focused on the Border Collie. From my point of view, he is still trying desperately to get what he wants by whatever means. Cesar trys to break the focus entirely by turning him around. After he does this the dog starts to calm down. This reveals that it was the Collie creating a sort of fixation in the dog. Cesar attempted to divert it, as well as avoiding getting bitten with the tools he had available. Different tools could have possibly avoiding the stress of that situation, at the same time there's only so much you can do when you're in that moment already. I don't think it was a poster reaction for all trainers to emulate, it wasn't the best. But I also don't think it was the worst, or something embodying animal cruelty.

Overall I would say Cesar's principles of energy and influence are good suggestions for people in dealing with animals. Being calm and non-emotional is essential in dealing with any animal. Too many people discipline their animals with negative undertones, creating fearful, aggressive or antisocial dogs. He may not be the best but I certainly enjoy watching him more than Brad Pattison.


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## GodBlessPitbulls (Aug 23, 2009)

I believe this was a Wolf Hybrid and I give Ceasar alot of credit. I like him..


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

That dog was trying to bite him. There is no excuse for the way the dog acted and he needed to be put in his place. There was no hitting or beating and the dog caught on pretty quick.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

UPDATE ON THIS POST 

Ceaser or Nation Geograhics had the two cruel vidoes taken off utube

Just proves they are hiding what he truly does to DOGS 

Ceasar Milan Cruelty 

Shocking a Shepherd


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

i am still reeling from that episode with the wolf hybrid.....


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## NinaThePitbull (Feb 10, 2010)

*Great thread*



jmejiaa said:


> I'll ask,
> 
> Would you hate another trainer 'X' with the same passion if he/she employed the same method?
> 
> ...


I agree with jmejmia, ( and I have read every post on this thread, and see great point coming from both sides, I will acknowledge them in the end of this post)

.. it's just that your last post has nothing to do with his action in the video and goes immediately to his personality at a seminar. You used you words that , in my opinion should be used sparingly and with caution.

Those words being:
" animal cruelty " ...ok that's two words.
and "hate".

Your thread begins with feeling he displayed "cruelty"
Cruelty (definition)
1. causing or inflicting pain without pity 
2. causing pain or suffering 
... that's an expensive word.

you also used "hate"... wow, really? You "hate" him?

I "hate" poverty, I "hate" slavery, I "hate" oppression. 
Can't say I really "hate " Cesar, whether I agree with his methods, or not. The man has spread some enlightenment regarding canine training and health to those who would never have done the in depth research that all of us here do.

But ultimately, this is what you said, in quotes, that made me realize it might be something more personal.

"The problem is with him. When you go to a training seminar and he decides to bring his presents. He acts like he is a god. Most of your lack of knowledge trainers will run up to talk to him just to feed is BIG HEAD. The older trainers just ignore him.

He doesnt come to learn as the last one I saw him at. He stayed out in the lobby where the venders where (at his vender booth to sign autographs) Sorry but he is just a TV celebrate .. NO MORE..."

....my response to that is... What does that have to do with his choice of action in the video? I think you are just casting aspersions.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am positive you are more educated and experienced than I in canine training, health and obedience. The fact that performance thinks highly of you, makes me acknowledge that.

I also think Michelangelo was a genius as a painter, yet he was certainly lacking in his people skills. ( I'm not saying you are, just making an example of how being skilled in one area , even being a genius, does not mean they are infallible human beings.)

I sincerely applaud the way you took a stand against a person that you know is supported by hordes of faithful fans who feel that Cesar can do no wrong, that's very courageous.

Yet I disagree with your choice of words, primarily "hate" and " animal cruelty"

*When we throw around the word animal cruelty too often, the importance of the movement behind it becomes diluted. *

That being said, I love that you started a thread that brought in members I never even knew existed, some of them making extremely good points.

escpecially:
performanceknl's informative and indepth post.. (by the way good links) i will read that once again.
chinadog's and Old Fort's sweet and to the point post
The honesty of Indigo and reddoggy
bzhunter made me nod as well...

the list goes on and on.

This thread rocks!


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## NinaThePitbull (Feb 10, 2010)

*I disagree.*



geisthexe said:


> UPDATE ON THIS POST
> 
> Ceaser or Nation Geograhics had the two cruel vidoes taken off utube
> 
> ...


i disagree that it "proves" anything other than the fact that the producers were receiving pressure from people who use animal cruelty as a means to spread their own hate filled control issued agenda. ( speaking of the small percentage of animal activists who use intimidating tactics, not about you in any way.)

Just today I read an article on the figure skater in the winter olympics who succumbed to pressure by the activists for wearing fur, and now remains fearful in the Olympic village while competing.

Yeah, he's ignorant for wearing fur and being unapologetic for it, but if you have to be violent or intimidating to get your message across, is that not a form of terrorism?

It doesn't prove his action was wrong. That action, as we see on the disagreements on this board will never be resolved. but People here are debating it intelligently. If anything, taking it off air denies people the opportunity to discuss the matter and gain understanding of the issues involved.


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

RileyRoo said:


> I see nothing wrong with this. he is stern, and a strong alpha to this dominant wolf hybrid. If it weren't for the choker and quick movements he could have been hurt I also see He forced the dog into a submissive posture to inforce leadership as wolves do in the wild.
> 
> what is cruel about this?
> 
> (Mind you I don't have my sound on and I don't really know what he was saying..I am going by what the video looked like)


A wolf hybrid has wild traits of the wolf and the domestication of the dog. So it does not have the fear factor that most wolves have when it comes to humans. Most in the wild will run away. Hybrids won't.
So these traits mixed can be potentially dangerous if in the hands of a beginner.
I believe to own these dogs you should have experience. Wolf hybrids have been known to attack, esp. kids because they are smaller.
Not saying they are all bad, just need experienced handlers.


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## NinaThePitbull (Feb 10, 2010)

*Definitely agreed...*



MetalGirl30 said:


> A wolf hybrid has wild traits of the wolf and the domestication of the dog. So it does not have the fear factor that most wolves have when it comes to humans. Most in the wild will run away. Hybrids won't.
> So these traits mixed can be potentially dangerous if in the hands of a beginner.
> I believe to own these dogs you should have experience. Wolf hybrids have been known to attack, esp. kids because they are smaller.
> Not saying they are all bad, just need experienced handlers.


it is amazing that wolf hybrids do not get the same negative attention that pitbulls get.

but i promise you, if there were HALF as many wolf hybrids out there as there are pitbulls, i'd say there would be 20-100 times more dog on human attacks than pitbulls. ( no that's not a typo twenty to one hundred ).:rofl:


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