# merle



## hell no they wont go

ok thanks to Cane i am now aware of the fact that blue was not an original apbt color but a staffy color. so it has been pretty much bred into the breed but there is still some amount of staffy blood in a blue pitbull...i'm assuming very very little if the staffy hasnt been in the bloodline for a looong while. 


any way take the merle gene people are breeding what they call rare merle pitbulls (but its actually american bullies.) do you think merle will ever become an exeptable breed color if people keep breedin american bullies and american pits with catahoulas like it has been with the blue in apbts i mean i personally would call a blue apbt a purebred apbt if its blue as long as it comes from a reputable kennel and a staffy blood hasnt been in the bloodline since the foundation dogs (this would have to be a kennel that has not just recently been established. i personally do not think this will happen because it comes with health issues but how do you all feel is it possible merle gene will ever become an exeptable breed standard i believe i the ukc breed standards it says merle gene is not acceptable.


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## BedlamBully

I do not think it will or should happen. 
BTW here is another article on Merle and the APBT

American Pit Bull Terrier Network Merle and the Pit Bull


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## FloorCandy

Interesting article, I just wonder how this applies to other breeds. Traits such as odd-eye are not a fault in other breeds, which leads me to believe that if this odd eye really affects vision with a medical condition, it would be a fault, as an unhealthy animal can not be shown, and should not be bred. The merle pattern itself is acceptable in many breeds, and is not a fault, or associated with genetic ailments. Is it something about the APBT that makes this pattern a health concern? I know that many merle APBTs do have health issues, but couldn't this be as easily attributed to poor breeding practices as to the genetic pattern? I am sure there are healthy merle APBTs out there. 

I am not in any way saying that the color should be acceptable for conformation, since it came by hanging papers, and therefore this behavior should not be encouraged, but I think that the health concerns come from the breeding practices of the BYBs that create these pups, not the color itself. Also, I firmly believe it is possible for the canine "slippery genome" to be responsible for a spontaneous new color, but this is improbable in the case of merle, since if someone believes they have a fluke full blooded merle APBT, wouldn't it be advantageous for them to have the dog genetically tested, screened, and its line followed to see if it is a natural occurance in the breed, and not the result of a mix and hanging papers? I feel that responsible breeders would welcome the scrutiny, and since this hasn't happened, to my knowledge, no responsible breeder has produced a merle in their line that they can say 100% has no other breed crossed in.

Bottom line, breed standards exist for a reason, and if you feel you can legitimately question the standard, go ahead, many people do, but be prepared to have to prove your integrity beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That's just my 2 cents.


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## dan'sgrizz

I dont buy into what cane says staffy came from apbt so they had to get the gene from somewhere.... Blue is an apbt color IMO. im not here to argue about that though.

As far as Merle i believe it either comes from an outside source such as catahoulas or it is due to massive inbreeding for imperfect traits. It shouldnt be allowed as an acceptable coat coloring.

I remember seeing a video i forgot what it was it was a bad one like hood dawgs or something like that. This guy had a litter of puppies and they were 7 generations of inbreeding (why he did this ...because hes ignorant.) he thought his litter was the  he had 5 puppies all with fluffy tails HAHAHA two had different colored eyes, 1 was merle, and the other was jsut super scrawny. He was gonna keep the merle and the different color eyed ones to be inbred again. It made me sad jsut watching it. He has had 7 generations of experience and hes still and idiot. saying his bloodline was "redboy/ jocko talkaboutum"


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## Sadie

Blue can also show up in apbt breedings as well without staff blood mixed in ... The color Blue is a dilute of black... It is possible for 2 black game-dogs or a dog who carries that gene without ANY staffy blood mixed in to throw a blue dog. It's not as common as most people would think but it does happen so why I agree with cane to a certain extent .. I also know for a fact that a black dog can throw a blue dog.... Genetics do not lie ...


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## hell no they wont go

actually breeds where merle is acceptable like aussies and catouhulas and whatever other breed may have merle do come across health problems on behalf of the merle gene. its not just the apbt.

merle has never been in the breed nore ever even consider to be mixed in with this breed not until recently when bybs decided to mic calahoutas and pits to get a new funky color to deem "rare" and make money out of it. it was probobly just an expiriment in the first place to see if these new odd colored pits would be good enough to pass off as a rare purebred and make dough off of it. if you truely have a pure bred american pitbull terrier from the purist bloodlines you can find there is no way merle would ever show up.


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## dan'sgrizz

Yah i dont see any merle colbys walking around lol


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## FloorCandy

hell no they wont go said:


> actually breeds where merle is acceptable like aussies and catouhulas and whatever other breed may have merle do come across health problems on behalf of the merle gene. its not just the apbt.
> 
> merle has never been in the breed nore ever even consider to be mixed in with this breed not until recently when bybs decided to mic calahoutas and pits to get a new funky color to deem "rare" and make money out of it. it was probobly just an expiriment in the first place to see if these new odd colored pits would be good enough to pass off as a rare purebred and make dough off of it. if you truely have a pure bred american pitbull terrier from the purist bloodlines you can find there is no way merle would ever show up.


What I'm saying is that it is unlikely that this trait spontaneously developed on its own, but it can't be ruled out, and if someone thinks their APBT developed this gene without crossbreeding, they should come forward and let the kennel clubs study them and decide, and since that doesn't seem to be happening, no one feels THAT confident that their merle is a full APBT. I just feel that the evolution of dogs is so peculiar, that nothing can be ruled out, look at the Lundehund, its unimaginable that this dog developed, but its terrain called for changes, and its genome obliged.
Norwegian Lundehund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I doubt that this has happened with merle and the APBT, but rather than argue with someone who swears they have a pure APBT merle, I would think its easier just to tell them if they feel that strongly, petition the registries, open their lines and kennel to scrutiny etc. I'm saying it can happen, it most likely just hasn't.


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## dan'sgrizz

Yes the dogs "double stacked" genes or whatever they are allows them to change much more from generation to generation. I would bet the Lundehund toes are because of a very small bredding population somewhere in its history. Alot of genetic abnormalities happen like that when there is a "bottle kneck" in the genetic population.


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## American_Pit13

Merle is not necessarily an American Bully color. Just because a dog is mixed doesn't make it Ambully. I think it is very possible that Merle is a recessive gene brought out due to inbreeding especially because of the health issues that follow. But because of the health issues it is a color we don't need ( sad to me because I think it is gorgeous). As for Blue Sadie is right it is a dilute of black and very well can come from APBT lines not just Amstaff lines.

Here are some pics of Merle because I know alot of newer people don't know the color. 
To add this guy raises Merles and has never had any of the health issues that usually come with this color. Tho he also doesn't breed Merle to Merle I believe.









Tocho Blue Merle








Raja Chocolate Merle









Wanted to add Merle in the APBT is more a pattern than a color The blue part or chocolate or whatever color just goes with the pattern.

So my question is is it likely that a pattern has been brought out from inbreeding?


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## dan'sgrizz

WOW ive never wanted a merle dog SO much.... lol

Merle is a Darker colored spots ontop of a lighter shade of the same color or vis-versa correct?


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## American_Pit13

Spots/patches

I edited out the Merle in danes I was thinking about Harlequin that color is hard to breed lol.


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## hell no they wont go

american_pit13 said:


> Merle is not necessarily an American Bully color. Just because a dog is mixed doesn't make it Ambully. I think it is very possible that Merle is a recessive gene brought out due to inbreeding especially because of the health issues that follow. But because of the health issues it is a color we don't need ( sad to me because I think it is gorgeous). As for Blue Sadie is right it is a dilute of black and very well can come from APBT lines not just Amstaff lines.
> 
> Here are some pics of Merle because I know alot of newer people don't know the color.
> To add this guy raises Merles and has never had any of the health issues that usually come with this color. Tho he also doesn't breed Merle to Merle I believe.
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> Tocho Blue Merle
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> Raja Chocolate Merle
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> Wanted to add Merle in the APBT is more a pattern than a color The blue part or chocolate or whatever color just goes with the pattern.
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> So my question is is it likely that a pattern has been brought out from inbreeding?


oh i have seen plenty of merle apbts. i was never suggesting it was an american bully thing or that mixed breeding between bully breeds and or bully breed none bully breed mixes = american bully they just = a mutt that was bred into a cruel cruel world. thats if you were directing that torwards me or just generally


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## hell no they wont go

the worst part of merle gene is i think it looks s cute in the breed grrrrr.


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## dan'sgrizz

I wouldnt mind a sport bred great dane... hog catching savage with merle spots...i hear that because of there long histroy of show breeding they have ALOT of health problems.


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## FloorCandy

Great Danes are fascinating! Their harlequin, which resembles the double merle or double dapple is beautiful.


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## American_Pit13

Thats what I had. I love the color and thing it is AWESOME! But I wouldn't own one


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## Mrs_APBT_America

My friend has a merle pit that is registered with UKC and yes I am sure the papers are hung BUT she has never ever had any health problems and her pit is now at age 13 and still thriving. There are so many breeds out there with the merle gene, who knows what is mixed with what. But I don't believe all the health problems that ppl claim that they all have.


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## dan'sgrizz

I believe i need to see more pics of faith laura lou!


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## Mrs_APBT_America

dan'sgrizz said:


> I believe i need to see more pics of faith laura lou!


Well I do have some new ones, I just need to resize them, let me see if I can do that and I just MIGHT post some up just for you Dan, haha.


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## cane76

dan'sgrizz said:


> I dont buy into what cane says staffy came from apbt so they had to get the gene from somewhere.... Blue is an apbt color IMO. im not here to argue about that though.
> "


one thing you cant do is provide a pedigree or photo of a pure bred blue apbt with out any am staff in its pedigree,that ill bet my life on!,
As far as i can gather its a trait inherited through tight inbreeding and line breeding and exploited for $,despite the possibility it was inherited through the blue paul or even farther back through ancient molosser blood via the old bulldog[bullenbeisser].these are all possabilitys.


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## Sadie

Cane here is a Blue game dog from Mexico this dog from what I could tell goes back to the crenshaw stuff .. I couldn't find any staffy blood in this blue dog .... This dog is the real deal .. I know it's very common for blue dogs to have some staff blood in them I will not dispute that .. However in some occasions a black apbt or a dog who carries the gene can throw a blue dog... It happens because blue is a dilute of black.. This is how it pops up in the apbt. I am not saying it's a common thing for a blue dog to show up if your not purposely breeding for the color blue .. But it does happen... And this dog here is a prime example of it

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=231848


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## cane76

im not familiar with many of those dogs or how they where registered,but it's interesting.


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## Sadie

Yeah they are from Mexico and are the real deal .. Obviously it's still legal for them to fight their dogs over there.. But this is just an example of a true blue game dog who comes from the black dilute gene. Most of the dogs in that pedigree go back to eli/ crenshaw/ and Bourduex stuff ..


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## BedlamBully

Uhm the rest of the bottom side is missing after the first four gens.

I went way back through the top though, no obvious staffies. Its of course a color that could have presented in the APBT all on its own, since its just a dilluted black through lines getting too tight.

BTW did anyone notices there is a BLUE dog on the COVER of the ADBA Gazette this spring?


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## Sadie

Hey that looks like ember painted blue LOL


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## Doug's Girl

I am really trying to learn and am very curious about the breed, and more specifically, my new pit.

Never heard of the "merle" thing before. It is very confusing.

Does this mean that if my pit has any spots on him at all that he is a merle? What if he is white and red with mainly large patches of red but a few small areas of red kind of mixed in? Are any small spots at all considered merle, or does it just depend? He also has what appear to be freckles on his girth by his "private", but they are large in diameter like 1 inch around.....

Basically, I guess what I am trying to ask is are pitbulls not supposed to have any spots at all?


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## American_Pit13

Pits can have spots. look at the pictures of merle that are posted that is the color that is not allowed.


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## pitbullfanatic

BedlamBully said:


> I do not think it will or should happen.
> BTW here is another article on Merle and the APBT
> 
> American Pit Bull Terrier Network Merle and the Pit Bull


This article is based on biasness, opinions and lies. Notice they use an obvious impure picture to prove the point. Maybe I will say there is no such thing as a brindle Pit Bull and show a picture of a tiger after all brindles must be mixed with them to get such coloration. I ask where is the "proof".


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## pitbullfanatic

Mrs_APBT_America said:


> My friend has a merle pit that is registered with UKC and yes I am sure the papers are hung BUT she has never ever had any health problems and her pit is now at age 13 and still thriving. There are so many breeds out there with the merle gene, who knows what is mixed with what. But I don't believe all the health problems that ppl claim that they all have.


You are correct. Most problems attributed to the merle and health are actually the problems associated with inbreeding. So why not speak out against inbreeding instead of choosing a scape goat. I guess trying to get traction on that issue would be much harder but since when is taking the easy way out better than honesty.


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## pitbullfanatic

hell no they wont go said:


> ok thanks to Cane i am now aware of the fact that blue was not an original apbt color but a staffy color. so it has been pretty much bred into the breed but there is still some amount of staffy blood in a blue pitbull...i'm assuming very very little if the staffy hasnt been in the bloodline for a looong while.
> 
> any way take the merle gene people are breeding what they call rare merle pitbulls (but its actually american bullies.) do you think merle will ever become an exeptable breed color if people keep breedin american bullies and american pits with catahoulas like it has been with the blue in apbts i mean i personally would call a blue apbt a purebred apbt if its blue as long as it comes from a reputable kennel and a staffy blood hasnt been in the bloodline since the foundation dogs (this would have to be a kennel that has not just recently been established. i personally do not think this will happen because it comes with health issues but how do you all feel is it possible merle gene will ever become an exeptable breed standard i believe i the ukc breed standards it says merle gene is not acceptable.


That is a new standard by the UKC. Same with the ADBA. Before this they were accepted. I can note older standards where Merle was perfectly acceptable. I can also show you where it has been admitted as having a history within the breed. Some people are leaders and some people are followers so when your registry has you by the balls and says no, what other choice is there but to accept their standards no matter how often they change.


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## pitbullfanatic

FloorCandy said:


> Interesting article, I just wonder how this applies to other breeds. Traits such as odd-eye are not a fault in other breeds, which leads me to believe that if this odd eye really affects vision with a medical condition, it would be a fault, as an unhealthy animal can not be shown, and should not be bred. The merle pattern itself is acceptable in many breeds, and is not a fault, or associated with genetic ailments. Is it something about the APBT that makes this pattern a health concern? I know that many merle APBTs do have health issues, but couldn't this be as easily attributed to poor breeding practices as to the genetic pattern? I am sure there are healthy merle APBTs out there.
> 
> I am not in any way saying that the color should be acceptable for conformation, since it came by hanging papers, and therefore this behavior should not be encouraged, but I think that the health concerns come from the breeding practices of the BYBs that create these pups, not the color itself. Also, I firmly believe it is possible for the canine "slippery genome" to be responsible for a spontaneous new color, but this is improbable in the case of merle, since if someone believes they have a fluke full blooded merle APBT, wouldn't it be advantageous for them to have the dog genetically tested, screened, and its line followed to see if it is a natural occurance in the breed, and not the result of a mix and hanging papers? I feel that responsible breeders would welcome the scrutiny, and since this hasn't happened, to my knowledge, no responsible breeder has produced a merle in their line that they can say 100% has no other breed crossed in.
> 
> Bottom line, breed standards exist for a reason, and if you feel you can legitimately question the standard, go ahead, many people do, but be prepared to have to prove your integrity beyond a shadow of a doubt.
> 
> That's just my 2 cents.


I agree with your top paragraph. The one below however seems that you have been manipulated into believing such. Where is there proof the gene trait actually came from hanging papers? Maybe this is a convenient lie to back up the case, which Scott Dowd has presented in his article that seems to have sparked the whole debate on the Merle in the first place. One lie to support another does not make truth. The current standards the UKC and ADBA currently have are relatively new. Older standards DID NOT EXCLUDE Merles.

My question is why have a changing standard?

I would say also that no breeder can be 100% on the purity of their dog even with papers. All breeds were developed from a mix in the past. Dogs used to be categorized more by function before registries existed. Along with this over time came conformity to a specific look. This conformity of look is what began the establishment of breed (any breed).

All the negative traits that are heaped on the Merle can just as easily be heaped (fairly) onto inbreeding practices, which is prove-able. Calling it a defect is simply an excuse used to villainize it to validate changing the standard or support unhelathy breeding practices. As you said no problems with other breeds who have this trait. This was a lie set forth by Scott Dowd as commissioned by the AKC and UKC simply to bolster their own personal preferences. I have had a blue eyed Merle and can definitively say it had no vision problems.


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## pitbullfanatic

dan'sgrizz said:


> I dont buy into what cane says staffy came from apbt so they had to get the gene from somewhere.... Blue is an apbt color IMO. im not here to argue about that though.
> 
> As far as Merle i believe it either comes from an outside source such as catahoulas or it is due to massive inbreeding for imperfect traits. It shouldnt be allowed as an acceptable coat coloring.
> 
> I remember seeing a video i forgot what it was it was a bad one like hood dawgs or something like that. This guy had a litter of puppies and they were 7 generations of inbreeding (why he did this ...because hes ignorant.) he thought his litter was the  he had 5 puppies all with fluffy tails HAHAHA two had different colored eyes, 1 was merle, and the other was jsut super scrawny. He was gonna keep the merle and the different color eyed ones to be inbred again. It made me sad jsut watching it. He has had 7 generations of experience and hes still and idiot. saying his bloodline was "redboy/ jocko talkaboutum"


About the Merle coming from the Catahoula is a lie set forth to prop up the argument that Melre is not pure to the Pit Bull. This is a wives tail promulagated by Scott Dowd in his article against the Melre Pit. The fact is, is that the Catahoula comes from a mix of the Catahoula Leopard Dog with Pit Bulls. If both breeds had the trait it is easy to see how this is continued in the Catahoula breed and thus confuses the truth.

As it is obvious you understand the negative impact of inbreeding. It is ironic that Scott Dowd also blames all the negative traits on the Merle that in fact are the result of inbreeding. I guess it is easier for some to lie to defend their opinion than to change for the purpose of truth.


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## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> Merle is not necessarily an American Bully color. Just because a dog is mixed doesn't make it Ambully. I think it is very possible that Merle is a recessive gene brought out due to inbreeding especially because of the health issues that follow. But because of the health issues it is a color we don't need ( sad to me because I think it is gorgeous). As for Blue Sadie is right it is a dilute of black and very well can come from APBT lines not just Amstaff lines.
> 
> Here are some pics of Merle because I know alot of newer people don't know the color.
> To add this guy raises Merles and has never had any of the health issues that usually come with this color. Tho he also doesn't breed Merle to Merle I believe.
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> Tocho Blue Merle
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> Raja Chocolate Merle
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> Wanted to add Merle in the APBT is more a pattern than a color The blue part or chocolate or whatever color just goes with the pattern.
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> So my question is is it likely that a pattern has been brought out from inbreeding?


Merle can be brought out with inbreeding the same as any other genetic trait. It can also be brought out without inbreeding. Neither is dependent on the other.

Also it is the recent standards that have excluded the Merle. Older standards do not exclude Merle Pits. So is it impure because some registries change change their standards. If so is anything safe?

In regards to the health issues these are issues that are more likely linked to inbreeding than the Merle gene. Science has proven the negative impact of inbreeding but there has been nothing to *prove* the negative impact of the Merle gene where such offspring have come from good breeding. Just a bunch of hear say. So far as health issues are concerned there is no real reason to thus exclude Merles from the breed unless you are also going to ban inbreeding as a consideration for registration. Good luck with that one, so why not just choose a scape goat like the Merle instead.


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## cane76

pitbullfanatic said:


> The fact is, is that the Catahoula comes from a mix of the Catahoula Leopard Dog with Pit Bulls.
> .


????Catahoula is the catahoula leopard dog.Catahoula lepord dogs are commonly mixed with pit bulls for catch work,that is where the majority of these merel dogs come from originaly,some having no apbt or am staff blood but being crosses of corso and catahoula or american bulldog.If you breed a corso to a catahoula cur then crop the pups ears you'll get merel apbt's in apperance in the first generation.


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## pitbullfanatic

cane76 said:


> ????Catahoula is the catahoula leopard dog.Catahoula lepord dogs are commonly mixed with pit bulls for catch work,that is where the majority of these merel dogs come from originaly,some having no apbt or am staff blood but being crosses of corso and catahoula or american bulldog.If you breed a corso to a catahoula cur then crop the pups ears you'll get merel apbt's in apperance in the first generation.


Catahoula Leopard Dog and Catahoula are two different breeds. Do people possibly mix them? Sure. This does not prove that the Merle however comes from the Catahoula. It would be just as easy to make the claim that the Merle in the Catahoula came from the Pit Bull. This whole thing is a huge wives tale that was developed in response to the bogus report put out by Scott Dowd in an attempt to discredit the Merle Pit.

I am not saying you can't create a dog that may resemble a Merle Pit. What I am saying is just because this has happened or can happen does not at all prove this is where the Merle gene trait came from. In essence the way the debate is phrased now you can say that a white Pit Bull comes from the American Bulldog simply because people could mix things up and create something similar. Why not turn the statement around even and say that the Catahoula possibly gained the Merle gene from Merle Pit Bulls? Basically just because you have similarities does not mean one is the mix of the other. It sure does make a convenient excuse though for those who depend on it to back up their position. Also it is still possible that either breed picked the trait up during its initial development. Even if this is the case though this does not dis-qualify current day purity as all breeds were developed from from others and all breeds are the result of breed evolution.


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## redsky

I used to own a merle (personally would never breed them but I do think they are cute and as good a pet as anything else out there) With that being said you are right you start seeing serious issues when folks start breeding merle to merle anyone that knows anything about chis and the other breeds that carry the gene know that health issues only rise when you neglect to take things into consideration and bred double merles etc.


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## cane76

pitbullfanatic said:


> Catahoula Leopard Dog and Catahoula are two different breeds..


Catahoula leopard dog is a breed,a catahoula is a catahoula leopard dog with out the last two words in it,it seems your making up the history as you write it,provide proof theres a separate breed called simply catahoula from a bonifide registry or legitimate source that is the equivalent.
You seem to have a agenda against some guy who wrote a article,i however am just doing the simple math,there has never been a photo of a Merell apbt in the breeds history pre 90's,pits and catahoula curs are commonly used for hunting purposes in the south as well as American bulldog crosses and other molosser type's and it is not a suggestion but a fact that can be stated with absolute certainty that some of these dogs have been registered as pure bred apbts and bred as rare merle apbts.
For there to be a merle apbt you would have to have a merle breed in the ancestry of the apbt for instance in the history of the old world bulldog,terrier or ancient type of molosser that went into the creation of the American pit bull terrier,however i do not believe with exception too the great dane that there has ever been a merle terrier bulldog or mastiff breed with exception to todays alahapa bulldog and similar breeds which are in reality just crosses of catahoula leopard dog and mastiff/bulldog types further testimony that your argument lacks merit.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Unfortunately, Pitbullfanatic, you won't win over Cane76.... He's been into these dogs for far too long. If you ever want advice he's definately the one to go to because he really knows his stuff.


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## cane76

Thank you Neela.


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## American_Pit13

NEELA said:


> Unfortunately, Pitbullfanatic, you won't win over Cane76.... He's been into these dogs for far too long. If you ever want advice he's definately the one to go to because he really knows his stuff.


Lol aint that the truth. Defiantly no out arguing with him either he knows his stuff :woof:. Always fun to try tho and great for some quick education.


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## cane76

american_pit13 said:


> Always fun to try tho and great for some quick education.


Or in my case penilization and loads of bad rep points[usually what happens when im involved in a argument].
I don't give bad rep point's no matter what,or it takes alot for me to do so.


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## American_Pit13

cane76 said:


> Or in my case penilization and loads of bad rep points[usually what happens when im involved in a argument].
> I don't give bad rep point's no matter what,or it takes alot for me to do so.


Yeah but those come from ignorant people who don't wanna listen or learn. People get butt hurt cause you don't agree and start throwing around bad rep.

I don't give bad rep unless some one is flat out rude or make rude statements that are uncalled for.


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## pitbullfanatic

cane76 said:


> Catahoula leopard dog is a breed,a catahoula is a catahoula leopard dog with out the last two words in it,it seems your making up the history as you write it,provide proof theres a separate breed called simply catahoula from a bonifide registry or legitimate source that is the equivalent.
> You seem to have a agenda against some guy who wrote a article,i however am just doing the simple math,there has never been a photo of a Merell apbt in the breeds history pre 90's,pits and catahoula curs are commonly used for hunting purposes in the south as well as American bulldog crosses and other molosser type's and it is not a suggestion but a fact that can be stated with absolute certainty that some of these dogs have been registered as pure bred apbts and bred as rare merle apbts.
> For there to be a merle apbt you would have to have a merle breed in the ancestry of the apbt for instance in the history of the old world bulldog,terrier or ancient type of molosser that went into the creation of the American pit bull terrier,however i do not believe with exception too the great dane that there has ever been a merle terrier bulldog or mastiff breed with exception to todays alahapa bulldog and similar breeds which are in reality just crosses of catahoula leopard dog and mastiff/bulldog types further testimony that your argument lacks merit.


Not trying to argue and respect to all opinions. Opinions are what they are from all sides as there is no proof to either side to support opinion. There is however clear evidence.

Catahoula (Bulldog) and Catahoula Leopard Dog however are different breeds. Google and read. Provide me a list of what you consider bonafide registry or equivalent and I would be happy to work to meet this standard if it is an honest standard. I guess I should have been more specific though as this may have lead to the confusion. I think most Catahoula Bulldog owners call them Catahoula for short, which agreeably adds to the confusion. Most true Catahoula Leopard Dog owners however I think still prefer the long name as they do not wish the confusion to exist. You can look at the two and see and obvious breed difference that has been standardized.

The debate really is not on the Catahoula but Merle in the Pit Bull. Mind you pre-2005 the Merle was not excluded by the ADBA or UKC. In fact the word "any" is used in both eye and coat descriptions in past UKC standard. Maybe before 2005 the UKC did not know Merle existed as a possibility of color/patterns for dogs. How many breeds do they cater to? Seems this is a terrible oversight. I can also provide ADBA standards that list nothing about coat or eye color. It seems like the reality would lean closer to recent discrimination may have driven Merle Pit Bull owners into registering their Merle Pits as Catahoula Bulldogs. What do you think people are going to do when their registry abandons them? Not all are as honest as I hope you and I will be in this discussion and I am absolutely sure and can assure you many Merle Pit Bull owners feel their registries abandoned them and not the other way around.

It seems that the debate today really stems from the lack of access to such older standards and many do not realize they have been changed. Maybe an admin can chime in to see if it would be alright to post a copy of these for everyone. If so I will scan and post for the benefit of all.

Lack of pictures however is not evidence as pictures in general are relatively recent when it comes to the Pit Bulls formal documentation. Just because you do not see pictures does not mean anything either as only a tiny, tiny percentage of Pits were visually documented before the 90's. Heck this is still true. I would guess at any one time there are probably around 3 million Pits alive. Add up all the pictures you can find and exclude the duplicates and see just how small of a percentage this is. That is simple math and seems to back my side.

As far as Scott Dowd if he had not written his article this would be a mute point and the UKC and ADBA would not have had to change their standards. He is the start point of the whole debate.

In the end full respect to all here. People will all choose to believe what they wish but I do think it is fair to provide and ask for evidences so people have a fair basis for their opinion.

As far as throwing bad rep points that is interesting. Seems a bit unethical just because of a difference in opinion. Hopefully admin has a control on this and would allow for the reporting of abuse. I am new but I do hope this service is democratic and honorable in nature.


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## cane76

pitbullfanatic said:


> Catahoula (Bulldog) and Catahoula Leopard Dog however are different breeds. Google and read. Provide me a list of what you consider bonafide registry or equivalent and I would be happy to work to meet this standard if it is an honest standard..


I don't need to google,I'm familiar with the catahoula bulldog and all other catahoula crosses[catahoula bull terrier,pitbull,bulldog etc]a catahoula bulldog was featured in Carl Semencics gladiator dogs,dog was a f1 American bulldog/catahoula leopard dog.
Catahoula bulldog is not a breed but a type,a working type used for catching hogs,what ever works is used there for it lacks a set phenotype,apbts,American bulldogs and various molloser breeds are used in its creation based on selection for working teperment.,
A catahoula is a breed,not a cross.
As for reputable registries I'd call the ukc,adba,fci,akc all examples of reputable registry's.As for the merle apbt,many if not all of those dogs are merly catahoula bulldogs with apbt papers.


pitbullfanatic said:


> Lack of pictures however is not evidence as pictures in general are relatively recent when it comes to the Pit Bulls formal documentation. Just because you do not see pictures does not mean anything either as only a tiny, tiny percentage of Pits were visually documented before the 90's..


This is not true since every single color has been photographed,even blue as far back as the 1950's,if the merle apbt is a true color for the breed and it is out there and has been since the beginning why wasn't it photographed until modern times?A pictures worth a thousand words.no legendary dogs of this breed have been merle,and the breeds history is devoid of references to merle dogs,however this particular breed is perhaps the most well documented of any breed.


pitbullfanatic said:


> As far as Scott Dowd if he had not written his article this would be a mute point and the UKC and ADBA would not have had to change their standards. He is the start point of the whole debate...


The start point of the whole debate is people registering apbts that are not pure bred,as for this Scott Dowd guy,that is your issue,im not familiar with it and breed standards do not reflect nor influence my views
on a breeds purity,for example i believe if a dog was crossed to catahoula,and matched and given a ranking such as champion that this dog would be a apbt such as dogs from the uk,like stormer and psycho,dogs that were not pure of apbt blood,but given ranking as apbts for there performance.


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## nate

i am why your dot went red deal with it 

better than what i do must of time you short bus riding DETTDEHHDETTT


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## pitbullfanatic

nate said:


> i am why your dot went red deal with it
> 
> better than what i do must of time you short bus riding DETTDEHHDETTT


"By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws."

Also on the rules page 4,5,6,7 and 10: http://www.gopitbull.com/misc.php?do=cfrules

Just in case you need a reminder of the forum rules.

I will wear them as a badge of honor. Pile them on.

It is is shame you have no opinion yourself.


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## pitbullfanatic

cane76 said:


> I don't need to google,I'm familiar with the catahoula bulldog and all other catahoula crosses[catahoula bull terrier,pitbull,bulldog etc]a catahoula bulldog was featured in Carl Semencics gladiator dogs,dog was a f1 American bulldog/catahoula leopard dog.
> Catahoula bulldog is not a breed but a type,a working type used for catching hogs,what ever works is used there for it lacks a set phenotype,apbts,American bulldogs and various molloser breeds are used in its creation based on selection for working teperment.,
> A catahoula is a breed,not a cross.
> As for reputable registries I'd call the ukc,adba,fci,akc all examples of reputable registry's.As for the merle apbt,many if not all of those dogs are merly catahoula bulldogs with apbt papers.
> 
> This is not true since every single color has been photographed,even blue as far back as the 1950's,if the merle apbt is a true color for the breed and it is out there and has been since the beginning why wasn't it photographed until modern times?A pictures worth a thousand words.no legendary dogs of this breed have been merle,and the breeds history is devoid of references to merle dogs,however this particular breed is perhaps the most well documented of any breed.
> 
> The start point of the whole debate is people registering apbts that are not pure bred,as for this Scott Dowd guy,that is your issue,im not familiar with it and breed standards do not reflect nor influence my views
> on a breeds purity,for example i believe if a dog was crossed to catahoula,and matched and given a ranking such as champion that this dog would be a apbt such as dogs from the uk,like stormer and psycho,dogs that were not pure of apbt blood,but given ranking as apbts for there performance.


We obviously will not agree on this issue, but I enjoy the banter. Just to add to the fun and education of all (and frustration of some):

The ADBA admits Merle. First paragraph of their position statement: "The merle gene has existed in the history of ADBA registered dogs, but breeders who used the dogs for their historic 'genetic task', found there were genetic flaws with dogs that have this color pattern. These dogs were culled, and not used as breeding stock. The ADBA recognized the fact that dogs with this merle color pattern were present in the breed, but they were not identified as 'merle'. Most breeders described this color pattern as spotted, mottled or incorrectly as brindle. In 2001, with the development of ADBA's "ACCEPTED TERMS TO DESCRIBE COLORS", the term 'merle' was added to more correctly identify this color pattern." - American Dog Breeders Association

1978 UKC 
Eyes- Round. Should set far apart, low down on skull. Any color acceptable.
Color- Any color or marking permissible

1936 AKC (American Staffordshire Terrier)
Color- Any color, solid, or parti or patched is permissible, but all white, more than 80% white, black and tan, and liver not to be encouraged.

Based on the ADBA's statement I can not imagine any real "ADBA dogman" to ever want their picture taken with such a genetically weak animal. I mean you might as well be caught in a photo holding a French Poodle or something.

Here are further quotes from the ADBA a registry you do respect:

"We are finding that the once rare 'merle' color pattern is being sought after and bred for."

"It has been *rumored* that irresponsible breeders striving to create a new designer color 'to market', have gone so far as to cross other breeds into their American Pit Bull Terriers to produce the merle color pattern in their lines." - This is where Scott Dowd comes into play.

"As of February 21, 2005 single registration of dogs with the merle color pattern will no longer be accepted. The registration status of merle dogs already in the studbook will not be affected."

"The registration of merle puppies in a litter from ADBA registered dogs with the breeding date after February 21, 2005 will no longer be accepted."

"The registration status of merle dogs already in the studbook will not be affected."

"Litter registration of non affected pups from registered dogs containing the merle color pattern can continue to be registered"


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## cane76

pitbullfanatic said:


> The ADBA admits Merle. First paragraph of their position statement: "The merle gene has existed in the history of ADBA registered dogs, but breeders who used the dogs for their historic 'genetic task', found there were genetic flaws with dogs that have this color pattern. These dogs were culled, and not used as breeding stock. The ADBA recognized the fact that dogs with this merle color pattern were present in the breed, but they were not identified as 'merle'. Most breeders described this color pattern as spotted, mottled or incorrectly as brindle. In 2001, with the development of ADBA's "ACCEPTED TERMS TO DESCRIBE COLORS", the term 'merle' was added to more correctly identify this color pattern." - American Dog Breeders Association


I dont respect the adba nor disrespet them,certinly what they state in writing i do not take as the absolute truth,only a fool would,this is the same registry that allowd Eddington's wanna be a whopper,as well as all his progeny
to be registered as apbt's.
paper hanging has been going on since the breeds inception and undoubtedly will continue.
One thing must be stated,and holds true for blue dogs as well.
Any old timer from the romantic glory days of dog fighting,[when it wasnt a blood sport participated in by thugs and inner city ganbangers,but by men in three piece suits who cared as much for the dogs as they did there ego and cash],any dog that would win was used period,regardless of color,money is the bottom line,and will always be,therefore it would matter little weather the dog was merel or not but weather it was game,and could be studed out for a profit and fought in a pit for one as well.
I personaly have no issue with these catahoula pit crosses,but they are not apbts and should not be registered as such.
these dogs are a recent phenominon and this Scott Dowd guy and his artical probably brought more attention to these merle crosses then ever seeing as now these dogs seem to be as popular as ever.


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## wheezie

this was a great debate... if you haev nothing to add to the thread then stay out of the thread


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## MY MIKADO

I love to read posts by Kieth. I learn so much.


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## chic4pits

american_pit13 said:


> Merle is not necessarily an American Bully color. Just because a dog is mixed doesn't make it Ambully. I think it is very possible that Merle is a recessive gene brought out due to inbreeding especially because of the health issues that follow. But because of the health issues it is a color we don't need ( sad to me because I think it is gorgeous). As for Blue Sadie is right it is a dilute of black and very well can come from APBT lines not just Amstaff lines.
> 
> Here are some pics of Merle because I know alot of newer people don't know the color.
> To add this guy raises Merles and has never had any of the health issues that usually come with this color. Tho he also doesn't breed Merle to Merle I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tocho Blue Merle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raja Chocolate Merle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wanted to add Merle in the APBT is more a pattern than a color The blue part or chocolate or whatever color just goes with the pattern.
> 
> So my question is is it likely that a pattern has been brought out from inbreeding?


i guess i'm just use to seeing cattys and cattle dogs and heelers that are merle..but boy these dogs are pretty reguardless if it's an acepted color..they are pretty dogs..
just saying......


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## pitbullfanatic

cane76 said:


> I dont respect the adba nor disrespet them,certinly what they state in writing i do not take as the absolute truth,only a fool would,this is the same registry that allowd Eddington's wanna be a whopper,as well as all his progeny
> to be registered as apbt's.
> paper hanging has been going on since the breeds inception and undoubtedly will continue.
> One thing must be stated,and holds true for blue dogs as well.
> Any old timer from the romantic glory days of dog fighting,[when it wasnt a blood sport participated in by thugs and inner city ganbangers,but by men in three piece suits who cared as much for the dogs as they did there ego and cash],any dog that would win was used period,regardless of color,money is the bottom line,and will always be,therefore it would matter little weather the dog was merel or not but weather it was game,and could be studed out for a profit and fought in a pit for one as well.
> I personaly have no issue with these catahoula pit crosses,but they are not apbts and should not be registered as such.
> these dogs are a recent phenominon and this Scott Dowd guy and his artical probably brought more attention to these merle crosses then ever seeing as now these dogs seem to be as popular as ever.


Although this has been spirited I do appreciate an honorable debate. I do agree in great part with your comment here as the ADBA actually did not even have a physical standard as such until 2001. This is understandable given that the purposes of the Pit from its beginning was work and not looks. You can even look at the pictures they provide on their site and see that in many cases they are not meeting a strict physical standard. I personally feel the greatest harm to the integrity of the ADBA and UKC both is there changing standards. In fact the UKC has just recently changed their standards again, which should cause concern for all Pit Bull owners and all owners of every breed for that matter that are registered with them.

Also in regards to fighting I do understand that this is a considerable part of the documented history of the Pit Bull. I also believe though that this has always been but a fraction of the true history as only a fraction ever really took part in such from the days of old. In an article wrote by Robert Ingersol and published p. 135 "This is the American Pit bull Terrier" by Richard Stratton "While the vast majority of Pit Bull people (probably over 90%) never contest their dogs in any kind of pit match, their attitude toward the activity varies." From the ADBA's older sites you would think everyone who ever owned a Pit was also a fighter.

It is interesting in terms of registries what their intent is/was. For me I see the ADBA as a working dog registry. I am using the term working loosely. The AKC I think most would also agree is more of a beauty pageant registry. And the UKC has tried to pigeon hole itself in the middle as both working and beauty pageant. All have been successful in their own right but all also shows the capitalist nature of America and how each thought they had a better idea of what a registry should be for its members and the Pit Bull. If 100% of Pit Bull owners were into fighting from the beginning then I doubt the others would have seen the success they have had with the breed. (AKC - Am Staff)

In regards to dogmen of old although I do not support their conduct I respect it as it was based on honor and standards. The thugs of today have no honor, no standards and no respect and are not respectable. They have caused more harm to the breeds perception than all the fighting dogmen of old combined.


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## bahamutt99

Eh. The earliest picture I saw of a Merle was in Stratton's book. Not sure what year the picture was taken. Early 80s? Show me merles from before then. I'd be interested in seeing them.

As for Dr. Dowd, that man is insanely smart. Genetics and all that way-over-my-head stuff is what he does for a living. If he says merle is a dominant trait that would have been expressed had it been in the breed all along, I believe it. As for his article being responsible for changing the standard, that's silly. It contains remarks from the standard committee which show that the discussion had already started before he published that article.

Personally, the people I've met who defend the purity of merles usually have a vested interest in them because they're in their lines or something of the sort. Dr. Dowd has no vested interest in debunking merles as they have no impact on his program, only the integrity of the breed.



pitbullfanatic said:


> In fact the UKC has just recently changed their standards again, which should cause concern for all Pit Bull owners and all owners of every breed for that matter that are registered with them.


Silly again. It is the national breed club which manages the standard, not the registry. They submit the changes to the UKC. It has no bearing on other breeds. If the national Treeing Walker Coonhound club decided they wanted to make a change to their standard, should the Toy Fox Terrier people panic? And the changes this time around were very positive ones which (if respected by the judges) would bring the breed back to a more moderate structure. Less overdone, big-headed, massive-proportioned stuff should be winning over more sensibly-built dogs in the ring. With the ABKC hosting shows for the bully people, its a win-win situation.


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## American_Pit13

One thing to think about too... Is it possible that merles where not mentioned in the standard cause they never existed before? So they had no reason to mention them or state them as a disqualification because the color wasn't a present color in the dogs before hand.....


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## bahamutt99

^A point. If we changed the standard to disqualify dogs with two tails because two-tailed dogs started appearing, well...


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## pitbullfanatic

bahamutt99 said:


> Eh. The earliest picture I saw of a Merle was in Stratton's book. Not sure what year the picture was taken. Early 80s? Show me merles from before then. I'd be interested in seeing them.


Richard Stratton "This Is The American Pit Bull Terrier" Copyright 1976. With this copyright date it would be impossible to have a picture from the 80's. But since you ask I thought it would be interesting to provide the following:

Page 50. This is an illustration dated 1962. Based on the dog's appearance I would say it is a minimum of 1 year old. This would also suggest that its parents one or the other also had Merle. This puts you back into the 50's.

SEE MY PHOTO ALBUM FOR PICTURES

Also it is interesting to note that color photography was not widely used before the 60's when it became easier and more affordable.

ADBA "The ADBA recognized the fact that dogs with this merle color pattern were present in the breed, but they were not identified as 'merle'. Most breeders described this color pattern as spotted, mottled or incorrectly as brindle." - American Dog Breeders Association

With this statement and understanding the historical progression of photography and lack of formal accepted color terms this makes it even easier to see how people could have either not understood what the correct terminology was or made mistakes in listing it. "In 2001, with the development of ADBA's "ACCEPTED TERMS TO DESCRIBE COLORS", the term 'merle' was added to more correctly identify this color pattern." - American Dog Breeders Association



bahamutt99 said:


> As for Dr. Dowd, that man is insanely smart. Genetics and all that way-over-my-head stuff is what he does for a living.


I have not seen proof that is "what he (Scot) does for a living". Maybe he does maybe he does not. Maybe he considers simply breeding his dogs as "doing this for a living". Maybe his education is in History or something else and he merely adds PHD to his article to bolster his position "and opinions". Maybe he is a genetic scientist but has a chip on his shoulder against the Merle and would give a bias study, especially if he was paid to make it bias. ADBA - "The American Dog Breeders Association Inc. has done a review of the current report by Scot E. Dowd Ph.D. that was done for the AKC and UKC in regards to the merle color pattern." - American Dog Breeders Association

Just remember all the scientist paid by the tobacco industry that also said smoking was not bad for you. Just the same as some smoker still deny the truth because of self motivation does not negate that it is the truth.



bahamutt99 said:


> If he says merle is a dominant trait that would have been expressed had it been in the breed all along, I believe it.


As for dominance I have evidence to the contrary. For starters" Scot E. Dowd in his own words " First it should be noted that there are ways that the merle can remain hidden such as within a complete phaeomelanic coat where the merle would not be evident, also there are cryptic merles", which then contradicts his own statement in the same report "This means, if it is within the genome at all, even in a heterozygote (one copy of the gene) state, it is still expressed and evident." - American Pit Bull Terrier Network Merle and the Pit Bull



bahamutt99 said:


> As for his article being responsible for changing the standard, that's silly.


The very first line of the ADBA web site on Health and The Merle Pattern: "The American Dog Breeders Association Inc. has done a review of the current report by Scot E. Dowd Ph.D. that was done for the AKC and UKC in regards to the merle color pattern." - American Dog Breeders Association



bahamutt99 said:


> It contains remarks from the standard committee which show that the discussion had already started before he published that article.


Is Scott Dowd the VP of the NAPBTA? If he had a chip on his shoulder or personal financial interestmaybe he started the discussion.



bahamutt99 said:


> Personally, the people I've met who defend the purity of merles usually have a vested interest in them because they're in their lines or something of the sort. Dr. Dowd has no vested interest in debunking merles as they have no impact on his program, only the integrity of the breed.


I would agree to some extent to this but not necessary in all cases. As an example I think many people support stopping BSL against Pit Bulls even though they have never owned one. People also fought for blacks during the civil rights era, people who would not be effected one way or the other if blacks attained their rights. Sometimes you can have vested interest simply by your own ethics and principals. But let us say your supposition is true and that a vested interest as you say would lead to a credibility issue. Can anyone honestly say that Scot does not have a vested interest in the issue. Now in fact his name and reputation potentially ride on it.

Furthermore many merle Pit Bull owners do have a vested interest in the issue. Let us say white Pit Bulls are banned next week simply because white resembles albinism and thus could have "potential" negative health impacts. How many white Pit Bull owners will just sit down and accept that they should so freely be discriminated against? All Pit Bull owners have a vested interest in the Merle whether they accept it or not and whether or not they have ever owned a Pit Bull.



bahamutt99 said:


> Silly again. It is the national breed club which manages the standard


,


bahamutt99 said:


> not the registry.


Is this not the NAPBTA? If in fact Scott Dowd is VP (past or present) and what you say is true then how can anyone deny he was directly or indirectly responsible for the change in standard or that he has a vested interest. Given the ADBA statement it seems more direct than indirect to me.

In regards to the national breed club actually setting the standard this is false, they only advise. All registries are indepedant and have full control over their own standards. This explains the difference in standards.



bahamutt99 said:


> They submit the changes to the UKC.


Your own words and the surrounding facts seems to validate my point.

By the way does anyone know if the NAPBTA and the UKC are independent of each other? If the UKC is affiliated in any way with the ownership of the NAPBTA then using one to support the other as proof is a bit biased in itself. If they do have an affiliation with each other this would also explain why the ADBA placated.



bahamutt99 said:


> If the national Treeing Walker Coonhound club decided they wanted to make a change to their standard, should the Toy Fox Terrier people panic?


YES. if they also caused their associated registry to change their standards. Who can ever be confident in a moving standard?



bahamutt99 said:


> And the changes this time around were very positive ones which (if respected by the judges) would bring the breed back to a more moderate structure. Less overdone, big-headed, massive-proportioned stuff should be winning over more sensibly-built dogs in the ring. With the ABKC hosting shows for the bully people, its a win-win situation.


You are certainly entitled to this opinion and I personally am not one way or the other on the ABKC. If they think they can do it better then we live in a free market system and cudose for their efforts. I think many dogmen would stoutly disagree though. P.52 Stratton "One thing more: I have heard (Am) Staff people complaining about the lack of conformity. The answer to that, of course, is that the breed is bred for performance, not conformation." Interestingly enough the ABKC seems to be abandoning the official name of the American Pit Bull Terrier all together. On their first page of their site they say: All dogs currently registered as either the American Pit Bull Terriers or American Staffordshire Terriers will be registered with us as an "American Bully". I understand that a good deal of Pit owners like to refer to them as different things but with this what are the "American Bulldog" people supposed to do and do you think this might cause even greater confusion?

Also it is interesting to note since you believe that it is the NAPBTA that actually controls the standard that the ABKC says this about eyes: "All colors" except albinism. Eye shape should be round to oval, low down in skull and set far apart. I do understand that they say that Merle is not accepted under the "Color" section but this I think pertains to coat color. So are Merle coat dogs accepted but Merle eye dogs not? Clarification would certainly be nice since Merle is not just a coat color but an eye color issue as well. I am also sure the judges would appreciate a clear standard.

Also I tried to provide images in the post but will need to familiarize myself more with this service. Once I figure this out I will try to remember to provide further evidence with pictures in this post. Until then you will have to check out my photo album. If you have Stratton's book another potential merle is on P. 15. "Wallace's Hillbilly". Examine the chest. In my album I have a blue Merle example that matches this almost exactly. I have the example both in color and black and white in my album. I can also provide newer pictures of brindle merles to further show how this gene can in fact hide in/be confused with the brindle pattern.


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## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> One thing to think about too... Is it possible that merles where not mentioned in the standard cause they never existed before? So they had no reason to mention them or state them as a disqualification because the color wasn't a present color in the dogs before hand.....


I can understand your inquisition to some degree. However I think it would be a terrible oversight for a registry (UKC) that "currently recognizes over 300 separate breeds" - United Kennel Club: Breed Information

I can understand how with little research on the topic one may make a possible case for such oversight for the ADBA given that up until recently they only catered to the Pit Bull and until 2001 did not even have an accepted color list (which at the time DID include Merle and was before this debate was ever started in 2005). However with what the ADBA does admit to this seems to also show that there in fact was not oversight, but instead acceptance of Merle up until 2005.


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## nate

lmfao this is to funny dave should have removed my post if he was going to change the rep points i gave you from bad to good


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## pitbullfanatic

nate said:


> lmfao this is to funny dave should have removed my post if he was going to change the rep points i gave you from bad to good


Why should he remove it? It really shows your character I think. Why not just participate in the discussion? I can debate more than one person at a time. Do you have any of your own opinions or better yet do you know any facts? If not feel free to review my posts as not only do I state facts I provide backup to support my position. Is that what actually hurts or makes things hard to accept for you?

Hopefully we will at some point have an actual conversation and the perception I currently have of you will be more favorable and vice versa. I respect all differences of opinion and will treat you with the same fairness without regard to how you have treated me.


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## American_Pit13

Well I don't see anything close to a merle in your album..... I see and brindle and ticking... No merle....


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## cane76

One thing i believe.
With the misunderstanding of colors,or mis labeling of colors by enthusiasts and fanciers of the breed it is easy to imagine that many dogs that were described as possable Merle's by the advocates for the color pre 90's could of just as easily been pie bald dogs or as earlier stated strangely colored brindles or ticked dogs,since this "WAS" a breed defined more by performance and not by appearance it is reasonable too accept this ignorance.
But it is just as easy to see that if in fact this was a acceptable color within the breed that did not represent cross breeding that breeders form prestigious lines and of legendary dogs would have produced Merle's.
The argument that dogs would have been culled merley on color regardless of working ability is absurd to me,take for instance red nose dogs.
Many a dog men hated the color and had a distaste for traits they perceived as carried by the color,they were still produced due only to the fact that the parents of the dogs were "PRODUCING" either in the box or in the home as pets and guardians.
Everything has been and was tried in this breed from cross breeding too the akc allowing apbts to enter the am staff gene pool in the 70's,still not convincing proof seeing as even if a merle was born from perceived pure bred stock that these dogs could also be crosses due to breeding based on performance not purity of blood alone and the well documented paper hanging in this breeds history.
I'm not for or against Merle dogs,it clearly is not a defect in other breeds so i doubt it would be in this one,it just isn't a accepted color and for a breed that was a performance based breed what is the matter if it causes one not to be shown in confirmation since confirmation and hard nosed working animals are too different ballparks
And confirmation or dog shows for that matter had nothing to do with this breed becoming a success.
JMO.


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## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> Well I don't see anything close to a merle in your album..... I see and brindle and ticking... No merle....


Admittadly it would be easier to make things clear once I figure how to include a picture in the message. I will try to explain this as best I can though for now.

The illustration dated 1962. Look at the left eye. This is a Merle trait.

Wallace's Hillbilly (unhighlighted) - For comparison purposes.

Wallace's Hillbilly (highlighted) - shows potential Merle (coat) in the highlighted section. Part of my point was to show you how registries and individuals have found Merle sometimes hard to quantify and how black and white pictures can further make this more difficult. This is also admitted to by the ADBA, which I provided reference for in my last post.

Brownish looking oval - This is in fact NOT ticking (roan) but a swatch from a blue Merle (NOT Wallace's Hillbilly). This picture is actually un-modified. If you wish I can show the full dog, parents and one grandparent with the Merle gene. I can also show many other relatives and the nature in which the gene has effected each. Ticking (roan) are generally born white and develop the ticking pattern over time. I doubt there is much to the white thing with Wallace's Hillbilly and for the other pictures of the blue Merle I have pup and adult pictures to prove it is not ticking as there has been no change.

Black and White oval. This is the brownish looking oval with a black and white effect and shows how black and white photos can hide the Merle characteristic. This can be compared against Wallace's Hillbilly in the section I highlighted to both show the relationship and the ease of confusion that the gene shows in its effects.

Other than the blue Merle all the others images are from Richard Stratton's book, which shows a history of the gene and how it tracks back to the 1950's at least.

Interestingly enough the Old Family Red Nose also almost disappeared during the early 50's due to the same type of "visual" discrimination. This is also where the "fashion" really began to take its foothold on society in their dog choices due in great part to urbanization and less need to keep dogs (any breed) for functional purposes. Lightner who was one of the first to work with OFRN on an official basis and admitted he did not even like them even though they had proven their game worthiness.

For you bloodline buffs Lightner has two era's in his breeding the old era where he raised the OFRN and the new era where he gave them up and they almost disappeared, except for the likes of McCoy and Wallace who all but saved them form extinction within the breed.

Also interesting is that Bob Wallace kept and promoted the OFRN simply for posterity and "fashion". Stratton - p.88. For all of you who believe the Pit Bull was only bred in the good old days for fighting, this shows that its (the Pit Bull) history has also been about looks to some degree for at least the past 60+ and likely longer years. Whether or not we like the facts it is fact that most all pure breeds are kept and produced based on looks today. Few really breed for gameness or aptitude anymore (even though they claim it) but most who claim "game" will not admit that "fashion" does dictate breeding as it obvious by their output.

To this point John Colby played a large part in pushing the fashion movement as he was one of the first dogmen to bring breeding into the commercial market. This is also the time of the advent of the UKC by Bennett no doubt in recognition of the new commercial market that was developing. Bennett was merely meeting demand in the development of his registry, which was soon followed by the ADBA to also try to capitalize on the situation. For all the registry bashers you should take the time to learn what the true purpose of a registry "is" and that each is merely meeting what it perceives the need to be. Just because a smaller or less known registry exists does not negate its legitimacy.

To me when the ADBA moved from a game standard to a visual conformation standard this began their "recognition" of the trasition in how and why the predominance of people breed Pit Bulls today, which is fashion. This is also why a blue Pit will go for $600 and a brindle will go for as little as $100 or less with all other things being equal in today's market. One of the ways I can tell a game breeder over a fashion breeder is asking them what is their favorite color. A game breeder will say they like the color of "Game" what ever it is. A fashion breeder will often say they like what ever is currently most in demand Red Red Nose, Blue, etc. Personally I feel to each his own because the facts are what they are and there will always be a group that breed to an older game standard and a group that breeds to newer fashion standards. My opinion will never have an impact on either group as to why they choose to breed, so alternatively I accept and appreciate people from both groups when it comes to talking about their dogs.

To me it is an interesting parallel the Merle has with the OFRN both in terms of timelines and fashion breeding.

Sorry for the lengthy post but I hope others will gain from this discussion and feel they are better educated about the breed. As an educated class irrelevant of opinion we yield much greater control over the breeds future destiny.


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## bahamutt99

pitbullfanatic said:


> I have not seen proof that is "what he (Scot) does for a living". Maybe he does maybe he does not. Maybe he considers simply breeding his dogs as "doing this for a living".


Since he doesn't sell dogs, maybe he lives pretty sweet off his looks, eh? And just goes to work everyday because it gets him out of the house. LOL!



> Is Scott Dowd the VP of the NAPBTA? If he had a chip on his shoulder or personal financial interestmaybe he started the discussion.


Financial interest? Explain. As far as "maybe" he started the discussion within the NAPBTA, that's a far cry from bad ol' Dr. D. changing the standard on a whim, don't you think?

This is one of those times I wish I had enough hours in the day to engage in conspiracy theory debate. Unfortunately, dogs gotta eat, poop don't scoop itself, and them damn bills gotta be paid. And that doesn't happen if I don't sleep. Ciao.

ETA: I do disagree that a drawing of a Pit Bull depicting one blue eye is evidence of merle. If the eye were broken or "marble," I would agree with you. But lots of breeds carry for mismatched eyes and don't necessarily carry merle.


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## cane76

pitbullfanatic said:


> Admittedly it would be easier to make things clear once I figure how to include a picture in the message..


Start a photo bucket account,scan photos to your computer,copy and paste the image URL or whatever its called on to your post's,about as easy as actually posting.
One thing i forgot to say,playing devils advocate.
If the history of cross breeding,paper hanging and just out and out lieing makes it hard to validate merles it would also go for every color of dog within the breed adding that much more credence to the theory or fact for better terms that this is a breed created on performance and selection therefore of.
If there where Merle's that performed in the box there would of been documentation of such and definitely the breeding of such dogs,it is definite that at some time a catahoula bulldog cross of some sort was matched but with little to no documentation of such matches it must not of been a good go for the crosses.


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## American_Pit13

The difference in black and white looks no different at all in what pattern the dogs has.

This dog you have pictured is brindle. Not merle








This picture is a patch on the brindle dog that is ticked. Still no merle.








Here is a Merle in B&W Very clear difference.









Also you refer to this dog as 


pitbullfanatic said:


> I think this could possibly be white merle for lack of a better term.


Who is very obviously ticked. So I think you are very confused on identifying patterns. 








(Brindle, Merle, Ticked are all patterns that come in several colors)


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## cane76

Yes wallace's hillbilly is clearly brindle.
Strattons first book is proof of many thing's,80 to 100 pound males existing in pure forum[working forum]pre 1980's for instance but merle dogs or bule for that matter no.[going lights barney was a brindle not a blue,just a general comment not directed towards anyone posting in this thread].


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## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> The difference in black and white looks no different at all in what pattern the dogs has.
> 
> This dog you have pictured is brindle. Not merle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This picture is a patch on the brindle dog that is ticked. Still no merle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a Merle in B&W Very clear difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also you refer to this dog as
> 
> Who is very obviously ticked. So I think you are very confused on identifying patterns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Brindle, Merle, Ticked are all patterns that come in several colors)


I do not question that Wallace's Hillbilly is Brindle. What I question is he brindle merle? The highlighted section causes me to question this especially since merle can happen to varying degrees and is easily hid in the brindle coat pattern. This is especially true in B/W pics, which was my point and validated by the ADBA's stance on why the merle gene was confused in many cases such as with brindle, mottled, etc.

In regards to the patch you claim is ticked. Since Cane76 was nice enough to give me a lesson on how to include pics here you go. The patch is from this dog.










Ticked or Merle? Looks like the dog you claim to be merle.









Now check out the highlighted sections of the dog you claim is merle.









Looks suspiciously like the place I highlighted on Wallace's Hillbilly. I feel there is at least enough evidence to be suspicious (not conspiracy). And Bahamutt I do not think my position is any more conspiracy theory than the Merle Pit coming from the Catahoula.

Also I did not say that this dog "WAS" merle 








but that I think it "could possibly be white merle" but given that the dog is white I also equally think it could be roan. I am just saying with that dog is that it could be merle as I have seen evidence that merle can cause this pattern.

Also now that I can provide pics what do you think of this picture?









That looks clearly merle to me yet this dog is its offspring:









And the picture I provided the original patch from and shown above is its offspring. Merle - Merle - Merle.

As far as the blue eye bahmutt it is known that merle can have this effect on the eyes. Here is a copy again of the illustration to make this post easier for others.









Look at the picture of the puppy I provided and you can see how the Merle has had some effect on the pups right eye.

This is also why the UKC changed their standards in relation to the eyes to include "except blue". - United Kennel Club: American Pit Bull Terrier (Revised November 1, 2008). It should be noted their is the newest "changed" standard of as of 11-01-08.

In regards to Scot just because he does not sell pups does not mean he is a geneticist. This is known as a fallacy of circular reasoning. If so just because I do not sell pups but yet practice informally in psychology that would by inference make me a psychologist or better yet a brain surgeon.

He makes his living maybe off of his job with the NAPBTA and off of studies he conducts for organizations like the AKC and UKC. Also I have seen posts where he does sell pups under the name of Matrix kennels. bahamutt your Yuotube is one of the places that lists this. 



. I do however have to say I like his music - very Hendrix. I appreciate your defense of what seems to be your friend. If someone can validate anything about Scot and whether he is really a geneticist however that would be great. Remember the post was asking for proof.

As far as him changing the standard I certainly do not place all the weight of this on his shoulder but the ADBA does admit that he is the one in which their response was based on. First sentence - American Dog Breeders Association. The UKC and the ADBA opinions and actions to drop the merle were simultaneous and the study was conducted specifically for them. So one the study was done for by Scot Dowd and the other admits he was their reasoning.

In response to Cane76 I still do not see how your statement negates the Merle as if the evidence I have provided is true then the Merle did in fact already exist as is so documented. Just because the Catahoula and the APBT share this same trait does not mean that the Pit Bull must have picked it up from the Catahoula. If anything this would likely be the cause as to why people thought they would make a good mix, which does explain the evolution of the Catahoula Bulldog.


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## American_Pit13

lol Merle dogs can have small spots and so can brindle to where either could have a ticked look if your only providing that small section to see. I could have a tri colored dog, but if I only gave one small section of the dog you would see if it was solid color or a tri lol.. 

Yes the dog I posted and the one you posted ( the pup ) are merle. 

No the hillbilly dog does not look brindle Merle... Just brindle. 


Also I never said you had said that the ticked WAS merle. I quoted you on exactly what you had said.


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## buzhunter

Damn, you guys doing this again? haha


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## cane76

pitbullfanatic said:


> In response to Cane76 I still do not see how your statement negates the Merle as if the evidence I have provided is true then the Merle did in fact already exist as is so documented. Just because the Catahoula and the APBT share this same trait does not mean that the Pit Bull must have picked it up from the Catahoula. If anything this would likely be the cause as to why people thought they would make a good mix, which does explain the evolution of the Catahoula Bulldog.


They make a good mix because as a hunting hybrid they work extrodanaliy well complimenting each other[hybrid vigor],where a pure bred apbt may[or may not]exibit da while on a hunt,crossing in the catahoula which is also a great working dog could cut down the "da" while still having a hard nosed working bulldog,or when crossed to the american bulldog or random molosser will give the dog greater wind and more leg for hunts which can go on for hours straight where the prospective pure bred molosser/ab would run out of gas.As the catahoula bulldog was a dog created for work not aesthetic the argument that it's creation is purely based on the convinace of both carrying the trait of a merle gene[not my position].As well of the fact that catahoulas are very popular in the south as is hog hunting as well as the apbt which makes it a readily avalable cross.


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## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> lol Merle dogs can have small spots and so can brindle to where either could have a ticked look if your only providing that small section to see. I could have a tri colored dog, but if I only gave one small section of the dog you would see if it was solid color or a tri lol..
> 
> Yes the dog I posted and the one you posted ( the pup ) are merle.
> 
> No the hillbilly dog does not look brindle Merle... Just brindle.
> 
> Also I never said you had said that the ticked WAS merle. I quoted you on exactly what you had said.


In regards to the patch I provided I did no as to show a size relationship and to bring focus to what I believe is a "potential" questionable area on Hillbilly. This difference in opinion on Hillbilly also shows I think how the ADBA came to their conclusion in a review of their pedigrees. pictures, etc.

Does anyone have any comments on the 1962 illustration with the Pit with the Merle eye?

In regards to your post yes you did in fact quote me but I felt it was a bit out of context being that is was also from a different post and was a statement of "possibility". I am sorry if I misread the intent.

To Buzhunter welcome on. Really I hope everyone is having a good time and learning something. I am trying to provide resources I hope everyone will find educational. I encourage others to add to this resource list as breed enthusiasts we should never stop trying to learn more. I do not really think any hardliner from either side will change their opinion but the discussion itself does give everyone the opportunity to review and make up their own minds.

To Cane 76. I appreciate your knowledge of the Catahoula. I also do not disagree that they have been bred together. Still I do disagree this is how the Merle got into the Pit Bull breed though. I see the two as mutually exclusive.

Also interested in your input bahamutt.

Does anyone have anything new?


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## Jenna23

I get what merle _looks_ like, but I'm perhaps missing why it is frowned upon? IMO-I think it's pretty, BUT that's just MO. I understand that you should stay away from people that say "rare merle" but for what reason? and where does it come from? I've never seen it until I joined this forum (sorry if I bug you all with questions, but dang I wonder how you all _know_ so much, perhaps I am still a young grasshopper!)


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## American_Pit13

Jenna23 said:


> I get what merle _looks_ like, but I'm perhaps missing why it is frowned upon? IMO-I think it's pretty, BUT that's just MO. I understand that you should stay away from people that say "rare merle" but for what reason? and where does it come from? I've never seen it until I joined this forum (sorry if I bug you all with questions, but dang I wonder how you all _know_ so much, perhaps I am still a young grasshopper!)


It is frowned upon because it is questionable as to how merle came to start showing up in the APBT ( mixing is mostly likely how), and it is a non excepted color with any registry so you would be breeding against the standard if you are producing this color. Plus it is known to come with heath issues.

You can't show or work these dogs to them not being an accepted color, so any one producing these dogs is breeding for color and breeding useless pets that are unneeded especially with the situation at hand for pitbulls.

I love the color its beautiful.... But the dogs are useless and pointless to me and make nothin but a yard trophy or breeding tool since you can't complete them with any legit registry...

Even the ABKC ( bully registry) excludes merle.............



pitbullfanatic said:


> Does anyone have any comments on the 1962 illustration with the Pit with the Merle eye?


I don't see a dog with any Merle eye. I see a dog with one blue eye. that can happen with out any Merle influence. Just because Merles can have one blue eye doesn't mean it came from a merle gene.....Merles can be blue too but that doesn't mean blues dogs have anything to do with merles...........


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## Jenna23

american_pit13 said:


> It is frowned upon because it is questionable as to how merle came to start showing up in the APBT ( mixing is mostly likely how), and it is a non excepted color with any registry so you would be breeding against the standard if you are producing this color. Plus it is known to come with heath issues.
> 
> You can't show or work these dogs to them not being an accepted color, so any one producing these dogs is breeding for color and breeding useless pets that are unneeded especially with the situation at hand for pitbulls.
> 
> I love the color its beautiful.... But the dogs are useless and pointless to me and make nothin but a yard trophy or breeding tool since you can't complete them with any legit registry...
> 
> Even the ABKC ( bully registry) excludes merle.............


I see. So in essence it is something people do for money, kind of like exploiting the breed almost? I'm beginning to see the light and now that I do, it's really rather sad. TY american_pit you are most knowledgeable.


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## FloorCandy

I'd just like to point out that odd-eye is not only brought about by the merle gene. Many breeds have this trait. I have seen odd-eye in several different coat colors of huskies. I have seen odd-eye on english bulldogs with no merle in their coat. Dalmatians often have odd-eye, and there's no suspician of merle there. Those were just 3 breeds that came to mind right away. So even though odd-eye is often seen in merle dogs, it is not exclusive to merles.


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## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> It is frowned upon because it is questionable as to how merle came to start showing up in the APBT ( mixing is mostly likely how)


This is an opinion. I respect all opinions but would like to note that most people have come to this opinion not due to any facts but merely due to changes in registry standards and other opinions also not based in fact. Read all the resources (links) I have provided in previous posts and this seems to support my side. This is especially true if you understand wavering standards that registries have over time. The UKC is especially bad about changing its standards and conforming to the whim of the AKC. This is evident in the change from the 1898 standard when CB Bennetts daughter took over, the 1940 standard, 1978 standard, the 2005 standard and now the 2008 standard and probably several more changes in between that I have missed mentioning.

Another quote from Stratton p. 144. "pressures utilized by the other registry (AKC) which could always discredit the United Kennel Club". This shows the political nature and the hiearchy structure of the registration industry. The AKC puts pressure on the UKC and they both put pressure on the ADBA and all fall in line. It is my opinion this is causing greater harm to the breed than anything. This is obvious by the fact that the study by Scot Dowd was in fact commissioned by the AKC and UKC. Here is a direct quote from the ADBA - "*The American Dog Breeders Association Inc. has done a review of the current report by Scot E. Dowd Ph.D. that was done for the AKC and UKC in regards to the merle color pattern*." - American Dog Breeders Association With that being said how can anyone deny the politics involved with registries in making such decisions whether or not they are based on any merit.



american_pit13 said:


> , and it is a non excepted color with any registry


False, The American Pit Bull Registry American Pit Bull Registry is everything Pit Bull still does register the Merle and did not abandon it just because other registries did in 2005, simply based on whim and politics. In fact the APBR set up the first "true" study on the merle in the Pit Bull in an attempt to better understand the health "claims" that were also "falsely" placed on the merle as they saw this as a two pronged attack as the baseless claim of impurity alone would hold on its own.

The CKC also seems to register Merle based on their standard. "Color: All Colors Permissible." - American Pit Bull Terrier - Continental Kennel Club



american_pit13 said:


> so you would be breeding against the standard if you are producing this color.


Incomplete truth. By breeding merles you are going against the UKC and ADBA "recent" standards not "all" registry standards.



american_pit13 said:


> Plus it is known to come with heath issues.


False. This is merely supposition made by Scot Dowd in his article on the Merle. This has never been proven in the Pit and all health effects negatively associated with the Merle in the Pit Bull can just as easily be attributed to inbreeding. This was merely a charge made to discredit the Merle and to discourage their breeding. So if health is "really" the issue why not also ban inbreeding, which "is" proven to have negative health impact due to genetic depression. The reason I suppose for not banning inbreeding is that it is so entrenched in the culture of pure bred dogs (all registries, all breeds) that this would upset the membership to which these registries have falsely touted the benefits of inbreeding for the past 100 years and would subsequently unravel the purpose of their shows, which is to create top dogs (in their opinion) to then be used back in breeding and inbreeding programs. Just look at the sick nature of many pure breeds today from the AKC as a result of shows and inbreeding promotion of their winners by the owners. Given the options using the Merle as a scape goat is certainly the easiest choice especially since the health thing in regards to the Pit Bull was made up in the first place as part of the attempt to discredit the Merle.



american_pit13 said:


> You can't show or work these dogs to them not being an accepted color, so any one producing these dogs is breeding for color and breeding useless pets that are unneeded especially with the situation at hand for pitbulls.


I do not see pets as useless. The fact is, is that the preponderance of pure bred dogs are bred for and kept as pets. Breeding for posterity and fashion has been around at least since the 1940's on a commercial scale with the saving of the Old Family Red Nose from extinction by Bob Wallace. Again Stratton p.88 - "The strain (OFRN) was subsequently saved for posterity and in the 1950's became the fashionable strain".

The whole anti-fashion debate is weak as fashion breeding for all pure breeds has been around since the advent of registries, which I guess would have also not been "legitimate" at the time, being that they were new on the scene and age is really the criteria people are using when they try to discredit other registries that are not ADBA or UKC. All other things being equal there is no real difference in registry purpose regardless of registry of choice.

It is important to understand the whole advent of registries was specifically for the purpose of commercializing the breeding industry, capitalizing on the associated demand and bringing dogs to the general public most of whom never have the intent for show at all. Stratton also supports this by saying 90% or better never took part in fighting (work). If not for work then they were kept as pets. So the reality of the situation is that probably only 10% were ever kept for work purposes, at least in the past 80-100 years. I would say also that in today's world this figure would probably be even less. Much less. Based on the weak attendance at shows I would say this certainly supports such as being the case.

Whether you agree this type of breeding should or should not take place is not really relevant as it has, is and always will be. Just as their will always be those that breed to the oldest working standard of the ADBA, there will also be those that will breed to newer fashion standards that have been developed since then. Make no mistake if you are not testing your dogs for work and you are breeding them you are breeding to fashion along with better than 90% of the rest of the market.



american_pit13 said:


> I love the color its beautiful.... But the dogs are useless and pointless to me and make nothin but a yard trophy or breeding tool since you can't complete them with any legit registry...


So if you could "still" compete with them as you could before 2005, would you then consider them to be pure? As far as registry legitimacy the accusation of illegitimacy is often thrown around simply as a tool to support one's own opinion on the topic and to validate their ongoing support of registries that have "changing" standards. It is easy to discredit one registry or another but what is really the difference in terms of their purpose?



american_pit13 said:


> Even the ABKC ( bully registry) excludes merle.............


What then makes the ABKC legit by your standard and who are they to say? Seems like they too are merely bowing to the political whim of the AKC, UKC and ADBA. Maybe out of fear of being called illegitimate. If anything I would think true Pit Bull enthusiasts would be running away from them as fast as possible due to their attempt to strip the American Pit Bull Terrier of its rightful name and to now call it an "American Bully" as an official name. -American Bully Kennel Club - 2008 To me that is just blasphemy, however although I disagree with this I do not think that however makes them illegitimate given the true nature of what registries really are about. Back to my statement above on the advent of registries: "purpose of commercializing the breeding industry, capitalizing on the associated demand and bringing dogs to the general public most of whom never have the intent for show at all".



american_pit13 said:


> I don't see a dog with any Merle eye. I see a dog with one blue eye. that can happen with out any Merle influence. Just because Merles can have one blue eye doesn't mean it came from a merle gene.....Merles can be blue too but that doesn't mean blues dogs have anything to do with merles...........


Part of the confusion here I suppose is with the term "blue" eye. There are actually two types of "blue". A gray blue and a crystal blue. The crystal blue, which is obvious that is what the picture shows, is in fact a merle trait. It is also this type of crystal "blue" that is specifically meant in the new standards so that the standards did not conflict with themselves in relation to the merle gene. If you look at the change in standards you will see this to be true.

If you truly believe your comment and believe Scot Dowd then explain this part of his statement "A difference of color between the iris of one eye and the other". American Pit Bull Terrier Network Merle and the Pit Bull

How can anyone read Scot Dowd's report and take the overall subject as fact when there is so much conflict and supposition within the report itself? Evidence is claimed but non given, especially when it comes to the Pit Bull specifically.

So as to not take Scot out of context and to help you with your case I will also provide this quote by him: "not necessarily or always indicative of having the merle gene because it can also be found in dogs with extreme piebald or double blue dilution for example". The term "Not Necessarily" however leaves the door open. Based on the illustration I provided however it does not look like that Pit meets either of those given criteria.

It really seems to me that people are not doing their homework on this thread and are not really reading the sources I provide. I know it is a lot of information but without doing research it really seems that many who support an anti-Merle policy are merely drinking the proverbeal Kool-Aid espoused by some registries merely to justify their wavering standards.

For all those who do not own a copy of Stratton's book get it. It is cheap enough and easily found. Now I am not a promoter of fighting as Stratton is but this difference of opinion does not turn me against him and the light he brings to the history of the Pit Bull and the advent of registries and their true purpose is invaluable for the breed enthusiast.

Do not stop with Stratton though. As Pit Bull enthusiasts we should never stop learning about the breed. I view the bred history like the Bible. You can never know everything and you can never know enough. For non-Christians who support other religious views I suppose this could also be said about your books of worship. For non-believers no offense intended but just merely an observation of study.


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## American_Pit13

pitbullfanatic said:


> False, The American Pit Bull Registry American Pit Bull Registry is everything Pit Bull still does register the Merle and did not abandon it just because other registries did in 2005, simply based on whim and politics. In fact the APBR set up the first "true" study on the merle in the Pit Bull in an attempt to better understand the health "claims" that were also "falsely" placed on the merle as they saw this as a two pronged attack as the baseless claim of impurity alone would hold on its own.
> 
> The CKC also seems to register Merle based on their standard. "Color: All Colors Permissible." - American Pit Bull Terrier - Continental Kennel Club


Any registry that will register a dog by photos are nothing but frauds (apbr and ckc), encouraging the breeding of dogs with unknown lineage. Yes paper hanging has happened in the UKC and ADBA but they do contain the records of thousands of PEDIGREED dogs and if you know the lines you are working with you will know where that dogs has been bred from or if its and obvious paper hanging. The apbr and ckc are nothing but registries for bybs to help fool people into "buying papered" dog and wasting money on mutts.



pitbullfanatic said:


> Incomplete truth. By breeding merles you are going against the UKC and ADBA "recent" standards not "all" registry standards.


You can't show or working them in ANY reputable registry. It doesn't matter what the past standard was we aren't in the past lol..



pitbullfanatic said:


> I do not see pets as useless.


The breeding for pets in useless and does nothing but help ruin and over populate this breed.



pitbullfanatic said:


> So if you could "still" compete with them as you could before 2005, would you then consider them to be pure?


If they were Acceptable by the UKC and ADBA I would own them. As long as I knew the breeder and new the health of the dogs.

Whether they are pure on not is not for me to say. No one can because no one can know for sure. No one can actually prove the points they are making of what may have and may not have been in the 1800's. All you can do is look at all the information and you your self make an opinion.

If they where acceptable and I owned one and it worked and showed for me up to my standards of what I am looking for in a dog I would be fine with it, because color makes no difference to me its what I can do with the dog.



pitbullfanatic said:


> What then makes the ABKC legit by your standard and who are they to say? Seems like they too are merely bowing to the political whim of the AKC, UKC and ADBA. Maybe out of fear of being called illegitimate. If anything I would think true Pit Bull enthusiasts would be running away from them as fast as possible due to their attempt to strip the American Pit Bull Terrier of its rightful name and to now call it an "American Bully" as an official name.


I was actually making the point that even the American Bully registry did not even except merle even tho the merle pattern started appear more with the creation of the american bullies.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> Any registry that will register a dog by photos are nothing but frauds (apbr and ckc), encouraging the breeding of dogs with unknown lineage. Yes paper hanging has happened in the UKC and ADBA but they do contain the records of thousands of PEDIGREED dogs and if you know the lines you are working with you will know where that dogs has been bred from or if its and obvious paper hanging. The apbr and ckc are nothing but registries for bybs to help fool people into "buying papered" dog and wasting money on mutts.


So before pictures were widely taken and before pedigrees could be authenticated and legitimized the UKC and ADBA were frauds? I can easily show you where there are missing gaps in not only old pedigrees but even recent ones. Not only has paper hanging happened but it still continues, so therefore one could say that no registry is legitimate if this is the standard you wish to use.



american_pit13 said:


> You can't show or working them in ANY reputable registry.


This depends on your definition of reputable, which by your definition all registries are illegitimate as they all began somewhere from nothing taking what was available then expanding upon it.



american_pit13 said:


> It doesn't matter what the past standard was we aren't in the past lol..


Correct about living in the current and not the past but that does not mean we should sit down and take the abuse when they decide to change their standards. As you can see I am not as easy to roll over. For someone who believes in work how is it that you can support a changed standard that has nothing to do with work.



american_pit13 said:


> The breeding for pets in useless and does nothing but help ruin and over populate this breed.


90%+ of owners I think would disagree or they too would be working their dogs.

If you mean by this statement that the breed is ruined unless it meets its original standards then how can you reconcile this with a changing standard that has nothing at all to do with work? And when you say work if you are talking about the Pit Bull in its conventional sense then you mean work as fighting or at least game. If the only way to test game is by fighting and you do not fight your Pits then how exactly is their game determined? What method of work does this? I think many people at this post would surely appreciate a clearly defined method of work that does define game that is also not fight related.

Overpopulation is a myth when it comes to pure breeds in my opinion. I see this as propaganda supported by 30 years of bad policies of many in the so called humane services community. These bad policies skew the stats so they are not scientifically valid and this all works to suppress the desire for the breed. Remove the negative stigma and bad policies then count the numbers that do not have homes. Furthermore if you do support the overpopulation theory then there is NO reason to breed. I am a fervent supporter in helping Pits in need and have helped many. Interestingly enough I have never had a problem finding a needy Pit a home, but yet I have a personal policy unlike many shelters that is friendly to the breed. If overpopulation was an issue I think I would have much greater problem placing one's in need.



american_pit13 said:


> If they were Acceptable by the UKC and ADBA I would own them. As long as I knew the breeder and new the health of the dogs.


So purity is really not the issue with you at all as you seem to attest that you would own them if they were accepted. Did you own them pre-2005?



american_pit13 said:


> Whether they are pure on not is not for me to say. No one can because no one can know for sure.No one can actually prove the points they are making of what may have and may not have been in the 1800's. All you can do is look at all the information and you your self make an opinion.


Exactly, this is why I provide sources to back up what I say so that the uninformed reader can actually do their own research and form their own opinion.



american_pit13 said:


> I was actually making the point that even the American Bully registry did not even except merle even tho the merle pattern started appear more with the creation of the american bullies.


I do not see how one can come to this conclusion as there is no evidence to support such that I have seen, but I am willing to look at such if it exists. Please do feel free to source any information you have on this topic.

Really what it seems like to me is that you are brand specific with your registries and as thus may have somewhat of an elitist attitude when it comes to your brands of choice. This is not uncommon, the AKC is full of it. However just because you have your choices does not devalue the quality or services of others.


----------



## American_Pit13

pitbullfanatic said:


> So before pictures were widely taken and before pedigrees could be authenticated and legitimized the UKC and ADBA were frauds? I can easily show you where there are missing gaps in not only old pedigrees but even recent ones. Not only has paper hanging happened but it still continues, so therefore one could say that no registry is legitimate if this is the standard you wish to use.


The UKC and ADBA formed to start registries.. There is not need to start just registering dogs of unknown linage when we have registries that have been her for the past 100 years.



pitbullfanatic said:


> Correct about living in the current and not the past but that does not mean we should sit down and take the abuse when they decide to change their standards. As you can see I am not as easy to roll over. For someone who believes in work how is it that you can support a changed standard that has nothing to do with work.


I could careless what standard they change... Its there business they can do what they want, and then its my choice whether or not to continue registering my dogs with them.



pitbullfanatic said:


> If you mean by this statement that the breed is ruined unless it meets its original standards then how can you reconcile this with a changing standard that has nothing at all to do with work? And when you say work if you are talking about the Pit Bull in its conventional sense then you mean work as fighting or at least game. If the only way to test game is by fighting and you do not fight your Pits then how exactly is their game determined? What method of work does this? I think many people at this post would surely appreciate a clearly defined method of work that does define game that is also not fight related.


Do you have any idea of what events the UKC and ADBA hold ( other than conformation)?????
If so you would know what working an ADBA or UKC dog means. 
Nothing to do with being game as I do not own or support game lines and to me that means you are supporting the fighting of dogs which there is no room for in todays time.



pitbullfanatic said:


> Overpopulation is a myth when it comes to pure breeds in my opinion.


Tell that to all the pitbulls put down in shelters EVERY day. Glad you can home yours, I have never had an issue homing mine either, but that doesn't make me naive to the fact that THOUSANDS go with out homes. Also what YOU consider purebred and what others consider purebred are a big difference, and yes plenty of purebreds die in shelters.



pitbullfanatic said:


> So purity is really not the issue with you at all as you seem to attest that you would own them if they were accepted. Did you own them pre-2005?


I can't prove they aren't pure so if they where excepted I have no reason not to own them. But I don't need a house pet to lay around and do nothing. I want something I can compete. Nope never owned them.



pitbullfanatic said:


> I do not see how one can come to this conclusion as there is no evidence to support such that I have seen, but I am willing to look at such if it exists. Please do feel free to source any information you have on this topic.


Use your eyes. How many APBTS do you see pre 90's that are ACTUALLY merle? Go see how many Bullies you can find that are merle. Look up merle pitbull and you will find bully after bully after bully.

As for everything else I am done with this thread.. You have shown no proof at all that merle is a color that comes from this breed pre 80's and you have a huge lack of education about the situation this breed is in. You can continue but I hope no new members take your bad advice and get themselves going on the wrong track by breeding for pets, or using the registries you support.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> The UKC and ADBA formed to start registries.. There is not need to start just registering dogs of unknown linage when we have registries that have been her for the past 100 years.


Maybe they are formed as other registries are not meeting the needs of their members? Maybe people are running to them because their registries abandon them? Maybe people register their dogs so that a lineage can be recorded, which is one of the purpose of registries. Where did capitalism go? Are we still in America? People of all businesses start businesses because they feel they can offer something their competition does not. If the APBR, CKC, ABKC etc. feels they can offer something more then this is within their full right and does not detract from their legitimacy. This is the American way.



american_pit13 said:


> I could careless what standard they change... Its there business they can do what they want, and then its my choice whether or not to continue registering my dogs with them.


How can you say this. It is not "their" business. It is the business of the Pit Bull community and every Pit Bull enthusiast as this is who it effects. Will you feel it is not your business if they change a standard that effects your dogs? And why do you feel it is your business what other registries do if you do not feel it is your business what your registry does? When their current registry doesn't register their members dogs who then are the members supposed to turn to that will support them?



american_pit13 said:


> Do you have any idea of what events the UKC and ADBA hold ( other than conformation)?????
> If so you would know what working an ADBA or UKC dog means.
> Nothing to do with being game as I do not own or support game lines and to me that means you are supporting the fighting of dogs which there is no room for in todays time.


Yes I am aware of the events they hold but they have nothing to do with the original breed standard so how can one claim to preserve the Pit Bull in its original state. Seems like this is a preservation of the new. I am glad however that you clarified what you mean by "work" has nothing to do with game, which is the original standard by which the breed was defined. I do not see how this means however that I support fighting as I was merely trying to understand what you meant by work and if it was in the traditional sense or something new or self defined. Just to clarify I do not support fighting. I respect the dogmen of old but I have never agreed with fighting the same as 90% of the rest of the population both today and from the breeds recognized inception within registries.



american_pit13 said:


> Tell that to all the pitbulls put down in shelters EVERY day. Glad you can home yours, I have never had an issue homing mine either, but that doesn't make me naive to the fact that THOUSANDS go with out homes. Also what YOU consider purebred and what others consider purebred are a big difference, and yes plenty of purebreds die in shelters.


So I take it that you do not breed? Either way as mentioned in my previous post it is the failed policies of many in the "humane care" field that have led to skewed statistics. Ironically enough it is those same skewed statistics that validates their position of overpopulation. I feel for every Pit and actively promote their rescue and adoption. Rescue however is not for everyone who wants a new dog for many various reasons. Tell me though if a pound does not allow for adoption yet someone wants to get a dog who are they supposed to turn to.



american_pit13 said:


> I can't prove they aren't pure so if they where excepted I have no reason not to own them. But I don't need a house pet to lay around and do nothing. I want something I can compete. Nope never owned them.


Just because you do not need a house pet does not give you the right to say others should not have them. I think the world would be a much more boring place without such pets in our lives.



american_pit13 said:


> Use your eyes. How many APBTS do you see pre 90's that are ACTUALLY merle? Go see how many Bullies you can find that are merle. Look up merle pitbull and you will find bully after bully after bully.


This is your opinion. I have sourced my references and think I have made a strong case for their existance.



american_pit13 said:


> As for everything else I am done with this thread.. You have shown no proof at all that merle is a color that comes from this breed pre 80's and you have a huge lack of education about the situation this breed is in. You can continue but I hope no new members take your bad advice and get themselves going on the wrong track by breeding for pets, or using the registries you support.


You call me uneducated yet I have proven I have done research as I have provided references. As far as understanding the situation the breed faces you have no basis on which to make that comment. I am very aware the situation the breed is in. Unless the Pit Bull community stops dividing itself and learns to come together on a united front the situation will only get worse.

As far as advice I do not think I have offered any. I have merely stated my position on a topic and provided sources. Sources that you defend but yet seemingly have not taken the time to learn exactly what their position is or how they came to it regardless of how bad their reasoning process was. If somehow you think I could be better educated than by the sources themselves I would certainly like to know.

Finished or not with this thread I will continue to go on. I do hope however you will choose to continue to participate and bring something of substance to the conversation.


----------



## American_Pit13

pitbullfanatic said:


> How can you say this. It is not "their" business. It is the business of the Pit Bull community and every Pit Bull enthusiast as this is who it effects. Will you feel it is not your business if they change a standard that effects your dogs? And why do you feel it is your business what other registries do if you do not feel it is your business what your registry does? When their current registry doesn't register their members dogs who then are the members supposed to turn to that will support them?


 Yes it is there business and we who register dogs with them are there supporters and customers. A registry is a business that excepts money for keeping records of dogs.


pitbullfanatic said:


> how can one claim to preserve the Pit Bull in its original state. Seems like this is a preservation of the new. I do not see how this means however that I support fighting as I was merely trying to understand what you meant by work and if it was in the traditional sense or something new or self defined.


When did I claim to be preserving the pitbull in its original state? My dogs are far from the original state as they are show bred and weight pull dogs. They are what I consider the future for this breed.



pitbullfanatic said:


> So I take it that you do not breed? Tell me though if a pound does not allow for adoption yet someone wants to get a dog who are they supposed to turn to.


I breed my dogs when I myself am looking to get some new stock for competition and then what I don't choose to keep out of the litter are placed in show/working homes that have been waiting for my litter. I do occasionally place dogs in pet homes ( but usually they end up showing or pulling the dog any way with my guidance) However I do not breed FOR pets and encourage people to look at a shelter first as there are many dogs that are already in need of pet homes.

As for the shelter not allowing someone to adopt maybe they are nto a proper home to begin with?



pitbullfanatic said:


> I do not see how this means however that I support fighting as I was merely trying to understand what you meant by work and if it was in the traditional sense or something new or self defined.


Oh I also wanted to clear this up.. I was not meaning "you" in specific. I was saying IMO people who are buying and raising game bred dogs( you have to have fighting dogs with in the 1st few generations to be game bred) are supporting dog fighting. Obviously anything that is gamebred has come from dogs that have been illegally fought.


pitbullfanatic said:


> Just because you do not need a house pet does not give you the right to say others should not have them. I think the world would be a much moring boring place without such pets in our lives.


When did I say people should not have house pets?

I have 2 house pets Slim and Francis below. Don't need anymore. Slim was sub posted to be a show/working dog but didn't turn out being the quality I wanted so she is now just a pet.

Also I think you are taking alot of my Opinions and viewing them as if I am saying that it is that way or is fact. All in all it is just my option on things and the way I see and view things.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> Yes it is there business and we who register dogs with them are there supporters and customers.


Sorry. I understood it in the context such as the saying "it's not of your business" and did not understand you meaning as in a physical business.



american_pit13 said:


> A registry is a business that excepts money for keeping records of dogs.


I agree. I think there is more to this though as I think that it is also about membership support. I also think when such a decision exists (such as mass unregistration) they should maybe ask their members first as this is what my meaning was as "in their business". Also in this I think when such an important issue arises it should not be based on anything other than provable fact (especially something that undoes) and that the registry has an obligation of providing this information in an honest and up front manner with its membership. I may sound like I am coming down on the AKC, UKC and ADBA but I am not. I love dogs from all three and honor their history as leaders in the industry. I just disagree with some of their aspects and feel they are lacking on others. I also however do not look at registries really as an organization but instead a membership. Feel free to point this out if I am in error as maybe I have a glossy view of this.



american_pit13 said:


> Oh I also wanted to clear this up.. I was not meaning "you" in specific. I was saying IMO people who are buying and raising game bred dogs( you have to have fighting dogs with in the 1st few generations to be game bred) are supporting dog fighting. Obviously anything that is gamebred has come from dogs that have been illegally fought.


Thanks for the clear up. I agree with you on game bred as well unless maybe one could claim this based on the breeding of well research known old game lines.

But in general I do agree.

Also I would like to point out to anyone that is offended by his statement he is saying "game bred". A Pit Bull can be "game" but this is unknown without testing.

Anyone who wishes can feel free to be offended by this as it is my opinion.

People who make this claim of "gameness" are saying one of these:

"I'm ignorant as to what "game" is but it sure sells well so my dog is "game".
"I know my dog is "game" because I fight him".
"I perceive my dog as game but I do not really know the full definition".
"I perceive my dog is game based on pedigree research, I understand what game lines there were, and my dog descended directly from them".
"I think my dog is "game" because I saw him get in a yard fight and it was really hard to separate it."

Unless you actually have done your research and you are coming to this conclusion of "gameness" based on understanding of lines and pedigrees please do the Pit Bull community a favor and give up the "game" talk. It is one of the things that is hurting the breed the most. It may sell your pups now but when they are illegal to own you will not have a customer. If you love the breed invest in its future by not speaking in such a way.

Also I did some research in Google and look what popped up: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=863. I know I could hardly believe my eyes either. This gets me back to 1941 with the Merle and Colby and since at least one parent has to express the gene that puts me into the late '30's. I believe. I think we know why the ADBA came out with their retraction. I would say this is probably like 20+ generations back in some people's pedigrees. Still trolling and will let you know if anything else pops up.


----------



## bahamutt99

pitbullfanatic said:


> As far as the blue eye bahmutt it is known that merle can have this effect on the eyes. Here is a copy again of the illustration to make this post easier for others.


Merle randomly dilutes pigment. So yes, if the dog has a randomly diluted pigment spot over that whole eye, it will show like that. But a single blue eye is not proof positive of merle.



> In regards to Scot just because he does not sell pups does not mean he is a geneticist.


You're grasping. I'm telling you that he does what he says he does. Not because he doesn't sell pups, but because he does do the genetics and microbiology and genome sequencing and all that other stuff. What I'm saying is not just friend defense, but also defense of the validity of what he does to help the breed.



> He makes his living maybe off of his job with the NAPBTA and off of studies he conducts for organizations like the AKC and UKC.


And? I know he does. I proofread one of his studies about breed misidentification.



> Also I have seen posts where he does sell pups under the name of Matrix kennels.


I do not debate that he is Matrix kennels. I would not have heard of him otherwise, since I don't travel in scientific circles. It's the selling pups part I rebuke, and the implication that he has a financial interest in merle because of that. As though you're trying to suggest that he needs people to dislike merles so he can corner the market with his mostly rednose dogs for which he rejects probably 99% of applicants. That's a leap, I'd say.



> If someone can validate anything about Scot and whether he is really a geneticist however that would be great. Remember the post was asking for proof.


Well, I've been to his office. But next I'm sure you'll want proof that I really am who I say I am, too. Suffice it to say, if you dig, you can find all kinds of info about Dr. D. If you need to see these things in person in order to believe them, c'mon down to Lubbock and ask him.


----------



## bahamutt99

pitbullfanatic said:


> False. This is merely supposition made by Scot Dowd in his article on the Merle. This has never been proven in the Pit and all health effects negatively associated with the Merle...


Homozygous Lethal White Merles :: Australian Shepherd Health Information
The White Aussies Project, at Lethal Whites .Com

Plenty of info exists about the dangers of merle. Do you think our breed is immune simply because it is the best?


----------



## pitbullfanatic

bahamutt99 said:


> Homozygous Lethal White Merles :: Australian Shepherd Health Information
> The White Aussies Project, at Lethal Whites .Com
> 
> Plenty of info exists about the dangers of merle. Do you think our breed is immune simply because it is the best?


"These dogs are also sometimes (inaccurately) referred to as lethal whites (this is considered by many to be a derogatory term)" - Double Merle Dogs - The White Aussies Project, at Lethal Whites .Com

All the information currently that exists on the Merle is not conclusive that it is exclusively the Merle that has negative effects. Although your links are somewhat misleading they to back this up in their content.

I would add to that that using the term when it is not relevant seems to be a possible hidden attempt to mislead and create bias. This is also noted in the content of your links. Please read your content links before posting as a reference.

Also there is "NO" existing scientific study of Merle in the Pit. Wouldn't it be more prudent for a registry to study the subject in more depth before making broad generalizations from other breeds and using these to influence their decisions?

The argument about merle is 2 fold in a nutshell:
1. Pure or Not - No proof has been provided to show impurity and I have provided proof that links back to a minimum of the 30's that does indicate Merle did in fact exist. This transcends many well known lines and has even been part of their foundation stock such as Loposay, Corvino and more.
2. Should a dog be excluded based on perceived negative health effects. - If YES then why inbreed or for that matter breed whites or even blues. All have evidence and have been proven to be negative health impact. If NO then why not also exclude dogs that have been inbred as well as the practice of inbreeding, as well as eliminate whites and blues.

I do not argue there are potential effects that Merle "MAY" be related to. I argue that if this is the basis of pulling registration privilege then also are other characteristics that are "PROVEN" to have negative health impact and they too should also be treated the same.

The fact is that there is on conclusive evidence that Merle alone is responsible for health issues.

It seems pretty simple if you follow this theory then when breeding Merles simply do not breed Merle to Merle. Most breeders know this already.

In regards to Scot please invite him on so we can open discuss the topic to lay all facts on the table. Maybe he does gene sequencing maybe he just hocks genetics tests. True credentials on area of study would be nice to know of.

PitBullFanatic Quote: He makes his living maybe off of his job with the NAPBTA and off of studies he conducts for organizations like the AKC and UKC.

Bahamutt Quote: And? I know he does. I proofread one of his studies about breed mis-identification.

This proves the potential for bias and also shows his potential to create response to such bias.

Also you made the implication as to his credentials that he was a geneticist or something similar and that he made his living in the field of such study.

Maybe he is or maybe he is not. Slapping a PhD title on an article leaves one the impression that the article is written from someone how has received their PhD in that or a related field. I just ask for clarification on what kind of PhD.

Also maybe I am misunderstanding you bahamutt. Are you saying Scot does or he does not sell pups? It seems as if you are saying he does not but then you admit he has a kennel. These seem to conflict. It is really beside the point though as the implication is not really that he has a financial interest due to the Merle but he has a financial interest due to his affiliation with the AKC and UKC and others.

I am not asking anyone to reveal their identity and am not asking you to prove anything of yourself. Since you claim to know him - which I am sure you do or I doubt he would have supplied you the audio to your youtube video -then just ask and let us know. Better yet invite him on to take part.

Back to the debate specifically on Merle though:

1. Pure or Not 
2. Should a dog be excluded based on perceived negative health effects.


----------



## bahamutt99

pitbullfanatic said:


> In regards to Scot please invite him on so we can open discuss the topic to lay all facts on the table. Maybe he does gene sequencing maybe he just hocks genetics tests. True credentials on area of study would be nice to know of.


I believe I said this earlier, but Scot is really too busy for message board drama. You've been on the APBTconformation site, so you should know he's got a message board. Why not take the question directly to him, rather than making him come here to defend himself?



> This proves the potential for bias and also shows his potential to create response to such bias.


Cute. And yes, perhaps I am biased. I believe he does more good work for the breed and dogs in general than most anybody. You don't like the merle study, fine. But the breed misidentification study, the APBTconformation site, the APBT university, the breakdown of the ATTS numbers, etc etc etc. And yes, those things bear more weight coming from a credible source like a doctor, so we should be very thankful he's on our side and not the other.



> Also maybe I am misunderstanding you bahamutt. Are you saying Scot does or he does not sell pups?


Breeding Suffice it to say if you're worth having in the family, he'll _give_ you a puppy. (General "you.") If not, no amount of money will buy you one.



> I am not asking anyone to reveal their identity and am not asking you to prove anything of yourself. Since you claim to know him - which I am sure you do or I doubt he would have supplied you the audio to your youtube video -then just ask and let us know. Better yet invite him on to take part.


The best idea is still you taking your questions to him. Whether you believe it or not, he does have a job that he goes to every day (weekends, too) which is very draining on his time and energy. Rather than making him join a new message board every time someone has questions for him, join his board. That's your best chance to get the answers you seek.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

bahamutt99 said:


> I believe I said this earlier, but Scot is really too busy for message board drama.


I view my part in this as educational and not drama. I think I have proven this as I have cited and quoted most every point I have made so that others can also look this information up and make an "informed" decision.



bahamutt99 said:


> You've been on the APBTconformation site, so you should know he's got a message board. Why not take the question directly to him, rather than making him come here to defend himself?


The topic was posted here. I did not start the topic. I found it and addressed it. Keeping the conversation here will help all the other readers of this post keep up. Maybe only the few of us here that are debating the topic are the only readers but I somehow doubt this is the case and doubt it will continue to be the case unless for some reason the topic is removed.

I have been to his sites and see that you are active there as well. In fact even more active than he. I do not doubt he is busy but so am I (I too work 7 days a week 12-16 hrs a day). I however will try to join his board and will work to discuss this with him personally. I do suspect in this though I will be cyber-bullied and further ganged up on. One of the reasons it would be nice to keep the conversation here is that so far it does appear to be non-biased in the management of the forum.

In regards to your activity through his sites I have read several of your articles and did find them a good read. Thanks. I am also sorry about the carpet mill situation you had. Wonder if anyone would accuse Cesar Millan and if they would treat him in such a way.



bahamutt99 said:


> Cute. And yes, perhaps I am biased. I believe he does more good work for the breed and dogs in general than most anybody. You don't like the merle study, fine. But the breed misidentification study, the APBTconformation site, the APBT university, the breakdown of the ATTS numbers, etc etc etc. And yes, those things bear more weight coming from a credible source like a doctor, so we should be very thankful he's on our side and not the other.


Again I do not question him being a PhD. Nor does being a PhD make one credible, it only adds to the air of credibility, which if applied wrongfully causes questions of ethics. I question is the PhD in this field of study and if not why then apply the title to create bias. I will take this up with him however as you have suggested and report back if he answers.



bahamutt99 said:


> Breeding Suffice it to say if you're worth having in the family, he'll _give_ you a puppy. (General "you.") If not, no amount of money will buy you one.


Wow, all those awards and such on his dogs. Personally I however think it may be a bit unethical to show your dog at shows where you have internal political influence. This also seems to lend to the theory of politics in the decision of the Merle. Participation is not a problem for things like weight pull and such as this type of activity can be quantified. For activities such as Conformation though that are subjective, who would ever tell Scot "Sorry your dog just does not stack up". And by this I am not saying his dog's do not deserve such titles but merely saying that political pressure on the inside of the industry causes this to be a potential situation of bias the same as the Merle.

I would think it would be better to abstain from such activities so as not to even cause question. I have been to several shows however and have a feeling that politics plays a considerable role in Conformation events and I have spoken with many who believe the same. This is one of the reasons attendance and participation is not what it could be at such events.

In regards to selling pups, based on his own site it appears as if someone is willing to sign up and be put on his list of "Family" members then they could potentially buy a dog. Sounds like a waiting list any responsible breeder should have for potential buyers. A duck by a different name though is still a duck. This however is not the point of this post and was one that was brought up by you I believe.



bahamutt99 said:


> The best idea is still you taking your questions to him. Whether you believe it or not, he does have a job that he goes to every day (weekends, too) which is very draining on his time and energy. Rather than making him join a new message board every time someone has questions for him, join his board. That's your best chance to get the answers you seek.




Will do. If I get a response back I will also share it here. Look forward to talking to you on his board as well.

By the way bahamutt, please do not take any of this personal. We simply have a difference in opinions.


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## pitbullfanatic

Created an account with Scot Dowds board but can not get it to send him a message. Tried creating a post can’t do that either without being a moderator. Can you help bahamutt?


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## pitbullfanatic

Oh No. More cited material to chew on but I think many who are interested in Carver will also appreciate this one as it is a tribute to him and has some awesome pics: GENETIC OF THE LEGEND TO CALLED:. Check out the Blue Eye links. That is now Colby, Carver, Loposay and Corvino who have known built stock from Merle. Still digging and will happily keep everyone posted.


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## Jenna23

Where do _you_ come from? You're like a GD pit bull encyclopedia! (WHAT spelled it right first try!)
Somehow fanatic just doesn't seem like the right word lol


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## ForPits&Giggles

pitbullfanatic said:


> Oh No. More cited material to chew on but I think many who are interested in Carver will also appreciate this one as it is a tribute to him and has some awesome pics: GENETIC OF THE LEGEND TO CALLED:. Check out the Blue Eye links. That is now Colby, Carver, Loposay and Corvino who have known built stock from Merle. Still digging and will happily keep everyone posted.


I looked at "Blue Eye" and found a black and white dog with no blue eyes.... Perhaps just another name you are taking too literally? I mean, even if a dog does have a blue eye doesnt make it merle...last time I checked Merle was just a coat color, and many dogs born with blue eyes/blue eye dont have the Merle pattern. Also, I didnt check every single one because their are alot of offspring, but I didnt find "blue eyes" or "merle" patterns in a single one, I find it hard to believe that not a sinlge one of those dogs wouldnt have gotten the "merle" gene from "Blue Eye"

EDIT: Link to "Blue Eye" http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=100846


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## redsky

Merle is just a coat color lol I decided to stay away from this thread cause it's just a big fight but merle is just a coat color some of them have blue eyes some don't.... Every dog that has blue eyes is NOT a merle....


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## pimpidypimp

Dog's with blue eye's, they got no merle!

Boyle's Dirty Mary









Clyde The undertaker, another Boyles dog









My Boyles bitch, Angel









They got the "blue eye" but no merle! Never had it, never will!


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## Bulldoggin

""So my question is is it likely that a pattern has been brought out from inbreeding?""

Omfg what kind of an uneducated bunch of people are on here...
Simply put the answer is no!!!
Merle is not a recessive gene sorry...
And it is not a pitbull color. Period. 
damn do some research people, the info is out there in black and white, nowhere is it ever in merle.


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## American_Pit13

Bulldoggin said:


> Omfg what kind of an uneducated bunch of people are on here...


Well had you read the thread and not just came on to post something rude and arrogant you would see that the majority of people agree and are educated about the situation.

I suggest you read the post before you open your mouth. :hammer:


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## Rock Creek Kennels

Bulldoggin said:


> ""So my question is is it likely that a pattern has been brought out from inbreeding?""
> 
> Omfg what kind of an uneducated bunch of people are on here...
> Simply put the answer is no!!!
> Merle is not a recessive gene sorry...
> And it is not a pitbull color. Period.
> damn do some research people, the info is out there in black and white, nowhere is it ever in merle.


Wow! Sounds like you're the one that need to do the research. (or atleast read the thread youre posting in.) :hammer:


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## Bulldoggin

I read the whole thread, I gave my thoughts.
And Blue is an original Pit color also. 
it came from blue pearl dogs, they came over in the 1800's, is that original enough? 
I have read several threads on here and cannot believe the misinformation being thrown around here it is just ludicrous. I am sure there are alot of members who know what they are talking about, but upon first impressions, this forum looks like the blind leading the blind.
If someone would kindly point me in the direction of some threads not full off bullshit, I will gladly take my rude comments out of your offended view madam Gold VIP Member.


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## cane76

Bulldoggin said:


> it came from blue pearl dogs, they came over in the 1800's, is that original enough?
> .


the dogs were called blue Paul's genius,lol.


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## Bulldoggin

Well there yah go a lil bit of something correct , Ty Cane 
LOL


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## StaffyDaddy

Bulldoggin said:


> ... I will gladly take my rude comments out of your offended view madam Gold VIP Member.


dude... I don't think anyone has been OFFENDED yet but no one in here, wether they have 3 posts or a moderator should ever post something that seems beliigerent as their first post on that discussion. You might have read the thread, but looking at your post there was no way in hell for me to think you had.


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## cane76

Bulldoggin said:


> Well there yah go a lil bit of something correct , Ty Cane
> LOL


Wanna hear something eles correct,blue pauls and red smut's where not apbt's,presumably foundation stock but about as much apbt as the dogue de bordeaux cross in your avatar.


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## American_Pit13

Bulldoggin said:


> If someone would kindly point me in the direction of some threads not full off bullshit, I will gladly take my rude comments out of your offended view madam Gold VIP Member.


Well since you will get options from both sides of the fence every thread is bound to not meet your standards. I highly doubt you will get outta my view as I read just about everything on this forum. This forum is for discussion not for one person to come in with there god like views and say thats how it is on ANY subject. Every one makes there opinions on the subject at hand and anyone reading has their choice on what side to believe using the information provided in the debate.


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## StaffyDaddy

cane76 said:


> Wanna hear something eles correct,blue pauls and red smut's where not apbt's,presumably foundation stock but about as much apbt as the dogue de bordeaux cross in your avatar.


snaaappp!!!!


----------



## Atheist

Well I just had to chime in a say what a pile of hypocrisy. Breed standards for a dog that was never bred for a physical standard is just lunacy. Since pitbulls are not bred for size or color how can size or a color alone eliminate them from the breed? Genetics are a funny thing, there are people who are seven feet tall that can't trace one ancestor who is over six feet tall. As soon as I start hearing that a dog can't be a pitbull because he his a certain color I have to laugh. If he can defeat a pitbull in the pit then I guess he is the new standard, regardless of his color. There was a time when dogmen did not like red dogs. Of course that changed when some red dogs proved game. 

How ridiculous is a physical breed standard when it comes to pitbulls? These organizations and their papers are part of what is ruining the dogs. Breeding for physical standards means AMSTAFF! The old time dogmen would have bred any dog regardless of color if he were game. End of discussion. Its all a moot point now. I know a lot about pitbulls and I will be the first to admit that now when I look at a dog I just decide whether or not I like the dog. Papers or confirmation to a written standard plays no part in it. I just know what I like when I see it. I also am the first to admit that my opinion is pretty meaningless as honestly I can't look at my own dog and say whether or not he is a pitbull, Amstaff, AM. Bulldog or mix of all three. I suppose even if I were to fight him, which he seems eager to want to do, would it mean anything? He might be a super game mutt or pure pitbull who isn't all that game. WTF difference does it make. Do people hang the pedigree papers on the wall like some sort of snobby doggie diploma? Sorry no merle dogs allowend in this ivy leage school? I certainly understand why breeders track the lineage of their dogs and have no problem with that, but the notion that papers or registery make a good dog or a good fighting dog, or a cur are silly.


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## Rock Creek Kennels

Bulldoggin said:


> I read the whole thread, I gave my thoughts.
> And Blue is an original Pit color also.
> it came from blue pearl dogs, they came over in the 1800's, is that original enough?


The "blue pearls" huh. Nice try, but not quite. Please do some more research.



> I have read several threads on here and cannot believe the misinformation being thrown around here it is just ludicrous. I am sure there are alot of members who know what they are talking about, but upon first impressions, this forum looks like the blind leading the blind.
> If someone would kindly point me in the direction of some threads not full off bullshit, I will gladly take my rude comments out of your offended view madam Gold VIP Member.


Spend more than 2 mins here and you will figure out who knows what. There are only a couple people who think that merle is an acceptable color. Thats who we are trying to educate, not bash.

This might not be the right forum for you to be on. Youre not going to last long here acting like this.


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## Rock Creek Kennels

cane76 said:


> the dogs were called blue Paul's genius,lol.


Beat me to it!!! :clap:


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## Bulldoggin

Well good if noone is offended then it's all good . 
Blind Insults come easy here I see , Cane , but I'll try to be a lil less abbrasive so I do not upset the applecart. I am just in shock, still trying to figure out what kinda board this one is.... Ignore me if yah like, I'll get it straight here shortly.


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## cane76

Atheist said:


> Well I just had to chime in a say what a pile of hypocrisy. Breed standards for a dog that was never bred for a physical standard is just lunacy. Since pitbulls are not bred for size or color how can size or a color alone eliminate them from the breed? Genetics are a funny thing, there are people who are seven feet tall that can't trace one ancestor who is over six feet tall. As soon as I start hearing that a dog can't be a pitbull because he his a certain color I have to laugh. If he can defeat a pitbull in the pit then I guess he is the new standard, regardless of his color. There was a time when dogmen did not like red dogs. Of course that changed when some red dogs proved game.
> 
> How ridiculous is a physical breed standard when it comes to pitbulls? These organizations and their papers are part of what is ruining the dogs. Breeding for physical standards means AMSTAFF! The old time dogmen would have bred any dog regardless of color if he were game. End of discussion. Its all a moot point now. I know a lot about pitbulls and I will be the first to admit that now when I look at a dog I just decide whether or not I like the dog. Papers or confirmation to a written standard plays no part in it. I just know what I like when I see it. I also am the first to admit that my opinion is pretty meaningless as honestly I can't look at my own dog and say whether or not he is a pitbull, Amstaff, AM. Bulldog or mix of all three. I suppose even if I were to fight him, which he seems eager to want to do, would it mean anything? He might be a super game mutt or pure pitbull who isn't all that game. WTF difference does it make. Do people hang the pedigree papers on the wall like some sort of snobby doggie diploma? Sorry no merle dogs allowend in this ivy leage school? I certainly understand why breeders track the lineage of their dogs and have no problem with that, but the notion that papers or registery make a good dog or a good fighting dog, or a cur are silly.


Good posting but wouldnt it mean that if a merel was a apbt and was game it would have been used in a breeding program and produced more merles?
How come there are no merle ch,grch or rom's,possably because they arent apbts.
It is a definate that they would have been bred if they would bring there breeder pride and $ in the box,im done with this thread,it isnt proving anything besides that there is severe doubt that a merle is pure bred or worthy of preforming to such a standard in the box that it would be deemed a apbt purely on performance.
Still no photos of merle dogs pre 1990's and no refrences to the contrary,just quotes of the adba,ukc and some guy that only a few people care about on this forum,i not being one of them.
I can spot a catahoula cross as much as a blue neapolitian mastiff cross,i dont need some artical or some master of science to convince me of this.


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## Rock Creek Kennels

Bulldoggin said:


> Well good if noone is offended then it's all good .
> Blind Insults come easy here I see , Cane , but I'll try to be a lil less abbrasive so I do not upset the applecart. I am just in shock, still trying to figure out what kinda board this one is.... Ignore me if yah like, I'll get it straight here shortly.


There is nothing to figure out. This is a great board with some very educated people. Sit back and learn a little. I just wouldnt start bashing people on your third post. That will get you sent out of here very fast.


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## wheezie

SIMPLE. if you don't like the board then leave.


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## Jenna23

wheezie said:


> SIMPLE. if you don't like the board then leave.


:goodpost:
Right?

By the by Bulldoggin, Who pissed in your beer? Such hostility and vulgarity that is not necessary.


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## bahamutt99

Pitbullfanatic, I'm a Jr. Admin over on the other board. If you want to PM me your screen name over there, I can see if there's anything wrong with your account. It might be set up to where you have to post on the board before you're able to send private messages as an anti-spam thing. Not really sure. And there will be no bullying. The moderation is nothing if not fair over there. Very rarely do we even have to act, because the membership is pretty cool.


----------



## Bulldoggin

Jenna23 said:


> :goodpost:
> Right?
> 
> By the by Bulldoggin, Who pissed in your beer? Such hostility and vulgarity that is not necessary.


Haha cute, I just very well might leave if it is not a board for me, but yah never know I might have just come in at a time when the posts up top were not too condusive for good first impressions. 
Kinda like your responses. Ya'll are the ones who seem to have your shorts in a knot, I'm fine. I said I'd tone it down so I didn't get ya'll flustered, sooooooooooooooo, what's the problem?
:hammer:


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## pitbullfanatic

Please everyone get off Bulldoggin. He may have been abrasive but I think his intent was good. Remember I am the target, we do not want to run him off.

Rock Creek and Cane. You know you are misleading. You ask for proof, I show and you deny. If you wish to claim that a blue eye is not an indicator of Merle this proves you have not done your research. There is no reason for this as I have made it easy with my citings. If you need more I would be happy to accommodate. 

Bahamutt, I will try to make it back over to the other board in the next few days. I am actually pro-UKC and respect their organization very much but I understand my views are also in contradiction with theirs on some points and likely most on the board so I will not stir the pot (unless I just can not help myself as you can tell I am a little OCD when I believe their to be injustice). I will however go to try to speak with Scot.

Atheist, many people follow your same philosophy, especially since the ADBA did not even introduce some hard conformation standards until 2001, when they set out to develop a color list for Pit Bulls, which at the time they in fact did include Merle, much to many peoples chagrin here. Also I want to apologize in advance as I am Christian and attach certain values to that. I have been thinking of you in my posts and have been reluctant in mentioning the bases of some of my values where I felt it appropriate as I did not want to offend you or others that may feel or practice differently. If I ever make a Christian comment please do not be offended. I respect your choice as I am sure you have come to it through you own personal experience and thoughtful judgment.


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## American_Pit13

pitbullfanatic said:


> Please everyone get off Bulldoggin. He may have been abrasive but I think his intent was good. Remember I am the target, we do not want to run him off.
> 
> Rock Creek and Cane. You know you are misleading. You ask for proof, I show and you deny. If you wish to claim that a blue eye is not an indicator of Merle this proves you have not done your research. There is no reason for this as I have made it easy with my citings. If you need more I would be happy to accommodate.
> 
> .


You are not a target don't flatter your self.. Merle is the target.

As for the blue eye you show nothing but that Merle can come with blue eyes or eye. So what! That doesn't mean a dog with any type of blue eye has ANYTHING to do with being Merle. It in no way means that a dog with a blue eye is caring any Merle genes.


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## FloorCandy

pitbullfanatic said:


> Rock Creek and Cane. You know you are misleading. You ask for proof, I show and you deny. If you wish to claim that a blue eye is not an indicator of Merle this proves you have not done your research. There is no reason for this as I have made it easy with my citings. If you need more I would be happy to accommodate.


So by your reasoning this dog must be a merle...

Google Image Result for http://farm1.static.flickr.com/33/53525517_2475ad592e.jpg?v=0

and this one...
http://curiousanimals.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/husky-dog.jpg

and another...
http://www.billyblueeye.com/images/billy_blue_eye_61nj.jpg

Definitely a merle here...
http://www.samoyedrescue.com/sonoma-oct2001.jpg

one more...
File:Cat Eyes.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## pitbullfanatic

FloorCandy said:


> So by your reasoning this dog must be a merle...
> 
> Google Image Result for http://farm1.static.flickr.com/33/53525517_2475ad592e.jpg?v=0
> 
> and this one...
> http://curiousanimals.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/husky-dog.jpg
> 
> and another...
> http://www.billyblueeye.com/images/billy_blue_eye_61nj.jpg
> 
> Definitely a merle here...
> http://www.samoyedrescue.com/sonoma-oct2001.jpg
> 
> one more...
> File:Cat Eyes.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Crystal blue eyes are in fact a Merle trait. Whether it expresses itself in the eyes or the coat is based on a combination of it and other genetic factors. These are things that are determined during the pups development in the womb. Whether it expresses itself in the eye, eyes, coat or all is based on its genetic disposition as set by the parents. I have placed plenty of cited evidence in this post. If I need to re-post these all in one thread to make it easier I will be happy to do so.

And yes in fact all or part of those expressing the blue eye/eyes in the links I have provided can possibly be merle. I know this is a convenient thing to try and ignore or even deny for some regardless of the level of proof provided.

An american_pit I am flattered that you think I am flattered.

And people who want to bomb my points? As much as I do not like someone I would never dream of taking what they have earned away. Are we still in America? At least you could have the honor to give factual purpose behind such instead of shooting me in the back. If I post something that is false provide evidence to back up your case and if I can not prove otherwise and deny reality bomb away.


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## nate

pitbullfanatic said:


> Please everyone get off Bulldoggin. He may have been abrasive but I think his intent was good. Remember I am the target, we do not want to run him off.
> 
> Rock Creek and Cane. You know you are misleading. You ask for proof, I show and you deny. If you wish to claim that a blue eye is not an indicator of Merle this proves you have not done your research. There is no reason for this as I have made it easy with my citings. If you need more I would be happy to accommodate.
> 
> Bahamutt, I will try to make it back over to the other board in the next few days. I am actually pro-UKC and respect their organization very much but I understand my views are also in contradiction with theirs on some points and likely most on the board so I will not stir the pot (unless I just can not help myself as you can tell I am a little OCD when I believe their to be injustice). I will however go to try to speak with Scot.
> 
> Atheist, many people follow your same philosophy, especially since the ADBA did not even introduce some hard conformation standards until 2001, when they set out to develop a color list for Pit Bulls, which at the time they in fact did include Merle, much to many peoples chagrin here. Also I want to apologize in advance as I am Christian and attach certain values to that. I have been thinking of you in my posts and have been reluctant in mentioning the bases of some of my values where I felt it appropriate as I did not want to offend you or others that may feel or practice differently. If I ever make a Christian comment please do not be offended. I respect your choice as I am sure you have come to it through you own personal experience and thoughtful judgment.


frist i dont to voice what your already geting you dumb prick 
and i said i was done with fourm but jump on a real life friend of mine RC (wille) is a good dude

so yes you want my 2 cents i realy dont care if your boy dave bans me

the dogs you started of talking about are about as pure as a whopper or gotti hung paper's as for those colors come on stop talking out your ass 
or are you that dumb ?

how many title dogs do you have ?
how many true dog men are you on first name base with ?

dude if cant take the truth get the fuck off this board


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## pitbullfanatic

Typically I use a person's quote then post beneath. This one is not worthy and sounds like they speak from personal experience and would certainly have the necessary qualities through experience by which to judge me. If this is what represents our Pit Bull community it is truly in a much sadder state than I thought.



nate said:


> frist i dont to voice what your already geting you dumb prick
> and i said i was done with fourm but jump on a real life friend of mine RC (wille) is a good dude
> 
> so yes you want my 2 cents i realy dont care if your boy dave bans me
> 
> the dogs you started of talking about are about as pure as a whopper or gotti hung paper's as for those colors come on stop talking out your ass
> or are you that dumb ?
> 
> how many title dogs do you have ?
> how many true dog men are you on first name base with ?
> 
> dude if cant take the truth get the fuck off this board


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## redsky

blue eyes are not a merle trait it's from a lack of pigment man it is amazing what folks believe. Merle is a dominant trate there is no such thing as carriers because the dog is either merle or not you can read up on that and find it any where! BLUE EYES ARE SIMPLY A LACK OF PIGMENT..... I have some color genetic programs I can send you to for research if need be so that you better understand merle, blue eyes, pigment and all that good stuff would you like me to post them?


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## redsky

Merles

Canine Coat Color Inheritance and Appearance - coat colors and coat color inheritance in dogs.

B/b, E/e, and Beyond

Dog Coat Colour Genetics

You will see that merles only have blue eyes (in some cases) due to lack of pigmentation not because all blue eyed dogs are merles! I hope yall done discussing this because it has gotten sooooo out of hand....


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## Rock Creek Kennels

pitbullfanatic said:


> Rock Creek and Cane. You know you are misleading. You ask for proof, I show and you deny. If you wish to claim that a blue eye is not an indicator of Merle this proves you have not done your research. There is no reason for this as I have made it easy with my citings. If you need more I would be happy to accommodate.


Misleading? Youre the one saying that merle is an acceptable color when it's not. I showed you in your own link that you posted for "Colbys Merle" that he was not a merle dog, but a tan/white dog.

So who here is really misleading?


----------



## Jenna23

Bulldoggin said:


> Haha cute, I just very well might leave if it is not a board for me, but yah never know I might have just come in at a time when the posts up top were not too condusive for good first impressions.
> Kinda like your responses. Ya'll are the ones who seem to have your shorts in a knot, I'm fine. I said I'd tone it down so I didn't get ya'll flustered, sooooooooooooooo, what's the problem?
> :hammer:


:rofl:
LOL no problem here. And MY responses have always been questions, never opinions, as I don't speak on what I don't know. I was just blown away by your openness/hostility. For a first post that was quite a shock was all I was getting at, ie DANG who pissed in your beer? what made you upset? or more along your lines who ruffled your panties?


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## Bulldoggin

Lmao Jenna, I can tell you , This board is an eye opener for me. I do not think I have seen so much misinformation piled into one spot before. A lil shocking, and I cannot believe some of the issues that senior members are NOT just clarifying and stopping right in their tracks. But then I have not been on this kind of board before so live and learn I guess...

I do have to tell you folks. 
merle is NOT a recessive gene. That means that if a dog carries a merle gene, it will BE merle colored. period. 
And as far as the blue eyes, I dunno why someone doesn't just make a sticky on this post and put in the facts. BLUE eyes do not mean a dog carries the merle gene, period. If a dog carries a merle gene it will be Merle colored...End of story. Can a merle dog have blue eyes, well yeah!!!! But if it is not merle colored,it does NOT carry a merle gene.
Merle is not a purebred pitbull color. That is a proven genetic fact, why you people cannot just post the scientific facts and end this post is a mystery to me cause there are sure to be people who read this who do not know who may come to the wrong conclusion without straight up facts. This article is pretty straight forward, and there are a plethera of others, all backed with genetic facts, all you have to do is research it and there will be no room for any other answer other than NOT a pitbull color.
American Pit Bull Terrier Network Merle and the Pit Bull


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## Jenna23

Then by what you and others have stated (b/c I am one of those who does not know) merle is not recessive, however it is a sign of mixed breeding. But with that stated, if you have a merle colored dog and a dog of an accepted color like brindle, and you mate the two, then would all of the puppies be considered merle and be merle colored? and if not then the merle gene would in essence be recessive in those puppies b/c the brindle dogs genes were dominant. However then all of the puppies would theoretically be carriers of the gene and would be able to pass that gene on correct? 

I'm also going to assume that blue eyes don't really have anything to do with the merle gene so if a dog has blue eyes it has blue eyes.


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## FloorCandy

pitbullfanatic said:


> Crystal blue eyes are in fact a Merle trait. Whether it expresses itself in the eyes or the coat is based on a combination of it and other genetic factors. These are things that are determined during the pups development in the womb. Whether it expresses itself in the eye, eyes, coat or all is based on its genetic disposition as set by the parents. I have placed plenty of cited evidence in this post. If I need to re-post these all in one thread to make it easier I will be happy to do so.
> 
> And yes in fact all or part of those expressing the blue eye/eyes in the links I have provided can possibly be merle. I know this is a convenient thing to try and ignore or even deny for some regardless of the level of proof provided.
> 
> An american_pit I am flattered that you think I am flattered.
> 
> And people who want to bomb my points? As much as I do not like someone I would never dream of taking what they have earned away. Are we still in America? At least you could have the honor to give factual purpose behind such instead of shooting me in the back. If I post something that is false provide evidence to back up your case and if I can not prove otherwise and deny reality bomb away.


I am done with this argument, I showed you tons of proof, and I get a generic bs response, spouting nonsense, point is, argue all you want about the husky, the dalmatian, the tan doxie, but...THE SAMOYED??? It seems that no matter what anyone tells you, shows you, cites to you, etc, you will not back off. Merle CAN cause odd-eye, but it is not the only cause, people get odd-eye, I had a math teacher in HS that had half blue, half brown eyes, I guess he must have been a merle too.

Look up your genetics, heterochromia iridium can occur in most mammals, it is a genetic mutation. The merle gene can cause the appearance of heterochromia, but it is not the same genetic defect, the pigment in the eye is "washed out" by the merle, not caused by any mutation of the genes affecting the iris. The Merle gene randomly washes the color (lightens) on areas of the body, like tossing a bleach solution on colored clothing. This can affect one, both, or neither eye. Merle always causes the affected iris to be blue, while heterochromia can cause any color mutation blue/brown, blue/green, green/brown etc. Heterochromia can also cause only part of the eye to be affected, so a speck, wedge, or ring of a different color is visible, which I have seen many times in Siberian huskies, as my grandmother bred and showed them for many years. In some cases heterochromia presents later in life, not at birth, as the genetic defect is triggered, merle is apparent from birth, and remains unchanged until death.

I found this site to be entertaining, perhaps the geneticist should have just told these people that they are merles...
Eye Color and Genetic Diseases of the Eye and Heterochromia iridium (more than one eye color) | Ask the Geneticist (SM)


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## redsky

Jenna23 said:


> Then by what you and others have stated (b/c I am one of those who does not know) merle is not recessive, however it is a sign of mixed breeding. But with that stated, if you have a merle colored dog and a dog of an accepted color like brindle, and you mate the two, then would all of the puppies be considered merle and be merle colored? and if not then the merle gene would in essence be recessive in those puppies b/c the brindle dogs genes were dominant. However then all of the puppies would theoretically be carriers of the gene and would be able to pass that gene on correct?
> 
> I'm also going to assume that blue eyes don't really have anything to do with the merle gene so if a dog has blue eyes it has blue eyes.


nope blue eyes have nothing to do with merle and as far as the merle gene if the dog is merle it's merle there is no passing it on two or three gens later. in your question if you bred those two the dogs the ones that are merle are all that will be merle those that aren't will not be and will not pass it on why they will register some but not the ones that are merle.


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## American_Pit13

Bulldoggin said:


> A lil shocking, and I cannot believe some of the issues that senior members are NOT just clarifying and stopping right in their tracks. But then I have not been on this kind of board before so live and learn I guess...


Forums are not for a senior member to say what is and isn't. A forum is for debate. People ask questions, other people give there options. I suggest you find a website full of information you like, because you will never be happy here when someone gives an opinion you don't agree with.

Also I think alot of what you are seeing are old threads that Pitbullfanatic has drug up and are all now at the top of the page and are the same thing over and over and IMO are nonsense but this is a public forum and everyone has the right to there opinion.

As for misinformation I don't see you giving your views on any of it ( other than repeating what has been said many times about Merle already) You are just whining about the misinformation.


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## Jenna23

redsky said:


> nope blue eyes have nothing to do with merle and as far as the merle gene if the dog is merle it's merle there is no passing it on two or three gens later. in your question if you bred those two the dogs the ones that are merle are all that will be merle those that aren't will not be and will not pass it on why they will register some but not the ones that are merle.


Well shoot, I am no expert here but it seems that if it can be as simply stated as that then there should be no argument. :hammer::hammer:


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## Bulldoggin

It is possible to breed a merle dog to a non merle dog and get some non merle puppies in my understanding of the papers I have read.. They do not carry the merle gene. 
However with that said, there are a couple of merle patterns that do not present themselves in the traditional patched pattern people think of as merle, so you would have to make sure the non merle looking pups were not infact displaying the merle pattern in a less evident way. With that takin into consideration, No the non merle pups would not produce merle, and not carry the merle gene, they would however still be mixed breed pups. 
Any pups not displaying the traditional merle patterns, and having a less recognisable pattern of merle , would however still produce some traditional merle patterned pups everyone is so familiar with. So nope it is unconceavable that the pattern could have hidden in the breed for the century prior to it's debute. Therefore, it is pretty safe to assume, that what the expert genetisists are saying about the merle being a recently introduced gene is in fact, the truth as science defines it.

If it was an important issue for me, I would personally contact some of the genetisists involved in the studies and delve into it further, you can quote people till you are blue in the face, but the horses mouth will rarely lead you anywhere else but right to the water.
And if that ever happens, in relation to the merle gene , I am sure all the owners of the merle pits out there will cry it on the mountain tops, and the credible registries will reconsider their stance on merle coloring in pitbulls.

That however has not come to pass as of right now.


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## redsky

Your exactly right there should be no argument at all and I'm totally lost as to why there is one??? Reading through some of the post it is just like wow did that person even read what he/she put or research it.... I know a bit about merles because I owned one as a pet some years ago when i lived in nc and found them quite interesting although i'd never breed one. Merles were not meant to be in our breed simple as that but you know folks like having the ability to sell unusual things as they put it.....


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## Bulldoggin

american_pit13 said:


> Forums are not for a senior member to say what is and isn't. A forum is for debate. People ask questions, other people give there options. I suggest you find a website full of information you like, because you will never be happy here when someone gives an opinion you don't agree with.
> 
> Also I think alot of what you are seeing are old threads that Pitbullfanatic has drug up and are all now at the top of the page and are the same thing over and over and IMO are nonsense but this is a public forum and everyone has the right to there opinion.
> 
> As for misinformation I don't see you giving your views on any of it ( other than repeating what has been said many times about Merle already) You are just whining about the misinformation.


I am all for debate, but I also see that some of these "perhaps older issues" have no clear defined answers for people who do not know and would like the truth. All I am saying is when information is available that clearly defines an answer to a question a member has, and it is not being made clear through debate, i do not understand why the senior members who know this info do not in a non confrontational manner clarify and state the facts so that people who come to gain information on that subject, do not come away more confused then when they arrived. 
Information about this breed is very useful to everyone, so is debate, but when the truth is not portrayed clearly, it leaves room for more argument, and misinformation for innocent people honestly looking for the truth.


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## FloorCandy

Bulldoggin said:


> It is possible to breed a merle dog to a non merle dog and get some non merle puppies in my understanding of the papers I have read.. They do not carry the merle gene.
> However with that said, there are a couple of merle patterns that do not present themselves in the traditional patched pattern people think of as merle, so you would have to make sure the non merle looking pups were not infact displaying the merle pattern in a less evident way. With that takin into consideration, No the non merle pups would not produce merle, and not carry the merle gene, they would however still be mixed breed pups.
> *Any pups not displaying the traditional merle patterns, and having a less recognisable pattern of merle ,* would however still produce some traditional merle patterned pups everyone is so familiar with. So nope it is unconceavable that the pattern could have hidden in the breed for the century prior to it's debute. Therefore, it is pretty safe to assume, that what the expert genetisists are saying about the merle being a recently introduced gene is in fact, the truth as science defines it.
> 
> If it was an important issue for me, I would personally contact some of the genetisists involved in the studies and delve into it further, you can quote people till you are blue in the face, but the horses mouth will rarely lead you anywhere else but right to the water.
> And if that ever happens, in relation to the merle gene , I am sure all the owners of the merle pits out there will cry it on the mountain tops, and the credible registries will reconsider their stance on merle coloring in pitbulls.
> 
> That however has not come to pass as of right now.


The only evidence I have found of Phantom Merle's, and I could be wrong, is when a dog has a patch of merle that is removed in cosmetic surgery like ear or tail docking. A merle dog will have merle patterning somewhere on it's body, even if it is a very small spot. If that spot appears on an area that is removed, there will be no evidence that the dog was a merle, which is how some people will claim that the merle gene suddenly appeared in their line without any carriers. Now if you use a stud that had merle on its ears, and the ears were docked, removing all evidence of merle, you would be shocked to see merle puppies result. It is entirely possible that the only one who knew about this was the sire's owner, and if he won't own up to it, you would just never know until the pups were produced. I would speculate that this is how spontaneous merle would appear in a line.

I do believe, as stated earlier, that dogs CAN spontaneously demonstrate a new trait due to their particular, slippery, genome, but I also believe that there is usually a more traditional explanation. I would bank on human error or dishonesty 100 times over spontaneous natural mutation.


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## Jenna23

*I get it*

Got it, ty redsky, bulldoggin and american_pits for the simple, clean, _clear_ as day answers :clap:


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## American_Pit13

Bulldoggin said:


> I am all for debate, but I also see that some of these "perhaps older issues" have no clear defined answers for people who do not know and would like the truth.


 I see tons of CLEAR answers then uneducated people want to sit and argue and try to prove here side and even tho WE know the truth we can't just say your wrong we are right stfu lol... As often as we would like to, so misinformation is always going to be there and we just have to repeatedly correct it. Also you will see some senior members that just don't bother to post. We have been thru many of these debates over and over and over so some get tired and just leave it be.

This is one reason I for one look at everything. If something is stated that I believe is incorrect I will call it out and say something so that any "newb" reading the thread will not think that what that person is saying is truth.


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## Bulldoggin

It is not a personal attack against you, just an observation that I do not understand. 
And although I did see your posts in this thread, I was reffering to the senior members who KNEW the facts. 
Nothing personal, I do see from your interaction in this thread that you did not know either,no crime there, so this has been a good thing all around. Merle is not recessive, and it is not a result of inbreeding either, it is also a gene that cannot be spontaniously produced .... so even you learned something...So although I may come off abbrassive, I'm trying to work on that and I appologise if I have offended you,,, but the result of all this has been some very clear understandable information, that leaves little room for much more than the facts. I think that is a good thing.


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## performanceknls

I tried not read this thread but since it was such a hot topic I figured it got real good!
The I saw the non sense that "blue eye" is a merle trait.

This is my Merle Border Collie, funny how he has been bred from strictly black and white borders for the entire line of stock dogs. I guess that sneaky merle gene got in some how! LMAO
Neo RIP little buddy


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## American_Pit13

Bulldoggin said:


> It is not a personal attack against you, just an observation that I do not understand.
> And although I did see your posts in this thread, I was reffering to the senior members who KNEW the facts.
> .


Oh I don't feel that it is at all a personal attack I am just trying to help you understand the forum.


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## Marty

*The Genetics of Breed Color In The American Pit Bull Terrier:*

The Genetics of Breed Color In The American Pit Bull Terrier
by Amy Greenwood Burford B.S.

One of my responsibilities as a member of the staff of the American Dog Breeders
Association is to be the 'color expert'. I believe that my many years of experience in the breed,
as well as the opportunity to have grown up in a true 'American Pit Bull Terrier' family. has
given me the exposure that it requires to know the descriptive terms to describe the many diverse
colors in our breed. The color description that is placed on your ADBA registration papers does
not in any way attempt to depict the genetic makeup (genotype) of the individual dog. Instead it
is a description of the dogs actual color that you see (phenotype). This color description is used
for identification only and in many cases does not predict what color combinations the individual
dog will produce in its offspring.
Over the course of the last few months, I have received a surprising number of questions
concerning color and the genetic inheritance of color. Questions such as: 1. The blue color in the
APBT in the past was very rare. How are so many kennels now producing blues in such
numbers? 2. It is possible to produce a puppy with a black nose, when both parents have red
noses? 3. Where does the chocolate coloring come from? 4. How did I produce a brindle from a
line that has never had brindle dogs? In my review of the genetics of color in the American Pit
Bull Terrier, I will review a few of the principals of genetic inheritance in general and look at the
research that has been done in the field of color genetics in our breed in an attempt to give our
readers a better understanding of color genetic as well as provide answers to the above questions.

GENETIC PRINCIPALS
Each offspring inherits one half of their genetic make-up from their sire and one half
from their dam. All members of the genus canis, to which all dog breeds belong have 78
chromosomes. They appear in pairs and consist of chains of DNA material. Small sections of
these DNA chains make up genes, the genetic code for the production of certain proteins in the
individual dog. The genetic material for particular traits in the dog are located in certain regions
on the chromosomes called loci (plural) or locus (singular). The different assortment of genes
that are possible are a particular locus are called alleles. In many different breeds, through
selective breeding, only one allele is found at a particular loci, leading to all members of the
breed having the same trait. This is why purebred dogs will breed true, for those characteristics
that distinguish one breed from another. Alleles exhibit a dominance relationship when paired
with a different allele. When the alleles are different at the same loci, they are said to be
heterozygous. When the alleles are alike at the same loci, they are said to be homozygous.
Dependent upon how many different alleles are possible there are multiple combinations of
dominance. The term epistatic (above), means more dominant and hypostatic (below) means less
dominant. Geneticists use an upper case letter: example (A), to signal a dominant allele, and a
lower case letter: example (a) to denote a recessive allele.
The study of color genetic within a breed can be complex, as there are nine different
locations (loci) on the chromosomes that effect the final color that you see in your dog. At each
loci are two or more alleles, or gene choices, that interact according to their dominance-recessive
relationships. At loci that have more than two alleles, the relative dominance in the series have
been listed in order of their dominance.
Genetic research into the genotypes of coat color has not been done with UKC or ADBA
registered APBT. The reason is this: throughout the history of our breed, dogs have not been
bred for color. All colors were considered equal. An individual dog was selected as breeding
stock based upon a multitude of factors, none of them being color. The canine genetic research
into the genotype of color has been done solely in AKC registered breeds. One of the breeds that
has been studied is the American Staffordshire Terrier. As a matter of review, it is important to
understand that every dog accepted into the AKC registry as an American Staffordshire Terrier
was also registered with the UKC or ADBA as an American Pit Bull Terrier. The year was 1936,
and the popularity of the Our Gang Comedy and show's mascot, Petey, prompted the AKC to
open their stud book to the breed as long as the breed name could be changed to the American
Staffordshire Terrier. No other breed has been crossed into the AKC American Staffordshire
Terrier lines, so we are justified in examining the results of this research and applying it to our
ADBA registered dogs. The researched results of the color genotypes possible in our breed, at
the nine loci responsible for the determination of color are presented below:
As/Ay/at, B/b, C, D/d, E/Ebr/e, g, m, S/si/sp/sw, t
Locus A Series: Dark Pigment Pattern
This locus has six different alleles possible in the canine population. Only three are present in the
APBT breed.
(As) dominant Black
(Ay) dominant Yellow
(at) bicolored pattern (tan 'Doberman like' markings on a solid coat)
The A alleles are pattern factors that control the amount and area distribution of dark and light
pigment. They act within the hair follicle to switch pigment synthesis between light and dark. It
is important to remember that alleles at this locus interact with Locus E alleles.
(As) - DOMINANT BLACK: This allele produces uniform coverage of dark pigment over the
entire body. Its action is expressed in all dogs with black or brown coats. The (As) allele is
almost completely dominant over others in the A series. The black color ranges from pure black


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## Marty

to a black with a brownish cast (seal). Geneticists are uncertain if the allele is incapable to
produce pure black without additional help from another locus, or if the brown cast indicates a
heterozygous allele.
(Ay) - DOMINANT YELLOW: The (Ay) allele restricts dark pigment, producing yellow
colors. When homozygous, the coat can be clear gold, but often has black tipped hairs, especially
on the head and down the back.
(at) - BLACK AND TAN PATTERN (BICOLORED): The typical tan points are above each
eye, on each cheek, on the lips and lower jaw, extending under the throat, two spots on the chest,
below the tail, and on the feet to the pasterns and hocks, extending up the inner sides of the legs.
These tan points can occur on black or seal, blue, chocolate or red solid colored dogs. A great
deal of variation can occur with these tan points, even within the depth of the pigment. In some
dogs the tan points are not always marked and the color contrast is not always distinct.
Locus B Series - Black/Brown Pigment
( B ) black pigment
( B ) brown pigment
This locus contains only two alleles, the dominant ( B ) producing black skin and nose pigment
and the ( B ) recessive allele, producing brown pigment. In dogs that are red or buckskin, the
Locus ( B ) alleles are expressed in skin color, most visible around the eyes and nose. The black
nose indicates the genotype is ( BB ) or ( Bb ), both which would be expressed as black nose
because of the dominance of the ( B ) allele. A light brown or red nose is (bb), or homozygous
recessive. Being homozygous recessive, both parents must contribute one recessive ( B ) gene to
the offspring to produce the red nose. When breeding two dogs with the (bb) genotype, the only
resulting combination in the pups would be (bb) or red nose.
Locus C: Pigment depth
The Locus C series controls the production of pigment throughout the coat. In dogs, the
expression of the Locus C alleles is based on observation rather than experimental studies. The
American Staffordshire Terrier breed is felt to have only the dominant © allele at this locus.
The C allele allows the full expression of color, of dark and light pigments. The allele (cch) or
Chinchilla Dilution, found in other breeds at this locus, causes the light pigments to be diluted
out in various degrees. This would account for the varying shades found in many littermates
depending on their homozygous or heterozygous pairing. The chinchilla dilution allele (cch)
does not affect the dark pigment, thus allowing for the white dog with black skin pigment and
black nose. Other researchers (Robinson) feel that other modifier polygenes are responsible for
this phenotype.
CC full color
Ccch medium shade
cchcch pale shade
Locus D pair: Pigment density
(D) intense pigment density
(d) dilute pigment density
The locus D pair modifies the density of the pigment. The dominant (D) gives full density in
both the heterozygous (Dd) or the homozygous (DD) combination. The homozygous recessive
(dd) alleles dilute the color. When the dogs basic color is produced by dark pigment, genotype
(Bbdd) or (BBdd) yields the color known as blue. The black coat is modified as well as the skin
pigment to a gray or blue pigment around the eyes, pads and nose. When the dogs basic color is
produced by a light pigment the genotype bbdd (dilute brown pigment) produces a fawn with a
silvery cast known in our breed as a fawn/bluies. The skin pigment around the eyes is flesh
colored as well as a red or brown colored nose.
Locus E Series: Extension
(Em) black mask
(Ebr) brindle
(E) extension of dark pigment
(f) restriction of dark pigment
The Locus E alleles affect the extension of dark pigment, and all of the alleles at this locus
interact with those of locus A.
(Em) - BLACK MASK: This allele is dominant to all others in the series and is expressed as a
black mask on dogs that are not solid black. One researcher, Robinson, considers the evidence
that the black mask belongs in the E series as unconvincing and assigns it to a different series.
(Ebr) - BRINDLE PATTERN: The brindle allele produces the brindle pattern with stripes or
bars of dark pigment on a background of light pigment. In dogs with the dominant (As) allele,
which produces a solid coat of dark pigment (brown or black), the (Ebr) allele is masked because
there is no light pigment on which it can act. It is dominant over the extension (E) allele. In our
breed, interactions with alleles at the B and D loci produce a rich variety of brindle colors:
Ay-B-D-Ebr- black brindle
Ay-B-ddEbr- blue brindle
Ay-bbD-Ebr- brown or chocolate brindle
Ay-bbddEbr- fawn brindle
(The (-) as the second allele at the locus pair denotes an allele that is uncertain because of the
dominant nature of the first allele. It could be homozygous or heterozygous with any of the other
alleles.)


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## Marty

(E) - EXTENSION: The E allele produces normal extension or expression of dark pigment. It
interacts with Locus A alleles to produce a variety of effects:
As-E- black/brown
Ay-E- red or buckskin with or without black ticked hairs (on head and back) referred to
as sable in other breeds
(ee) - RESTRICTION: The homozygous (ee) alleles restricts the expression of dark pigment,
producing the yellow shades by light pigment. It does allow the expression of dark pigment on
the nose, lips and eye rims. It is recessive to all other alleles in the E series. Homozygous (ee)
alleles interferes with the expression of most Locus A alleles.
As-ee buckskin
Ay-ee light tan
Locus G pair: Progressive Graying
(g) uniform color throughout life
Research concludes that the AST breed are homozygous (gg) with dogs retaining their coloring
throughout their lifetime. The G dominant allele present in other breeds produces a silvering or
graying of the coat over time and the recessive (g) allele, giving a uniform color throughout the
dogs lifetime.
Locus M Pair: Merle Pattern
(m) uniform pigment
Research has shown that our breed has only the recessive (m) allele at this locus. The
homozygous recessive (mm) produces a uniform pigment in the breed. The (M) dominant allele
produces the merle or dapple pattern. The dominant (M) allele has been identified in Collies,
Shetland sheepdogs, Australian Shepherds, Cardigan Welsh Corgis, Great Danes, Louisiana
Catalhoula, Spotted Leopard Dogs and Dachshunds.
Locus T Pair: Ticking
(t) no ticking
Research has shown that our breed has only the recessive allele (t) at this locus which in the
homozygous recessive (tt) allows no ticking. The dark ticking that we see in our breed is
determined on the Locus A series by the dominant (As) allele, not on the Locus T Pair. In some
breeds this is known as a sable. In the APBT, traditionally this coloring is called black or brown
ticked. There are modifier polygenes that control the location and extent of the black ticking in
the breed. The dominant (T) allele at this locus causes the tiny flecks of pigmented hair in
otherwise non pigmented (or white) areas. The T allele is typical in breeds such as the English
setter and many of the hound breeds.
Locus S Series: White Pattern
The alleles of the Locus S series produce the white markings that are often seen in our breed.
Researchers identify four alleles at this locus:
S solid color
si Irish spotting
sp piebald spotting
sw extreme piebald spotting
The above sequence reflects the decreasing areas of pigmented hairs. There is some question
about the relative dominance of and interaction between the alleles in their heterozygous forms
because the expression is complicated by modifier polygenes which affect all of the alleles. Our
breed, which research shows carries all four of the alleles, show all ranges of white markings
from solid colors to all white.
(S)- SOLID COLOR: The homozygous (S) alleles produce a solid colored coat. The modifiers
will, on occasion, produce a small amount of white markings on the throat, chest, toes, abdomen
and belly.
(si) - IRISH SPOTTING PATTERN: This allele produces a pattern of white on the muzzle,
forehead, chest, belly, feet and tail tip. The varying size of the white area is affected by the plus
and minus modifiers. Breeds thought to be homozygous for this are the Boston Terrier, Basenjis
and Collies.
(sp) - PIEBALD SPOTTING PATTERN: This allele produces a widely varying areas of
white. In the homozygous (spsp) genotype you would see a white dog with dark patches.
(sw) - EXTREME PIEBALD SPOTTING PATTERN: This allele further decreases the
pigmented area and, depending on the plus or minus modifiers, the pattern can range from solid
white to white with spots on the ears, around the eyes, and in the tail area.
GENOTYPE SUMMARY in the American Staffordshire Terrier:
Black As-D-EBlue
As-ddEBlack
& Tan atatD-ERed
AyD-EFawn
AyddEBrindleAy-
D-Ebr-
Blue Brindle Ay-B-ddEbr-
CONCLUSION:
Question # 1: In times past, the blue color was considered as rare in the breed. How are
kennels now producing blue dogs in such great numbers?
The D Locus pair is the loci that modifies the dark Pigment pattern to blue with the
homozygous recessive (dd) alleles. Because kennels are selecting blue individuals which are
homozygous recessive (dd) the only allele that a blue parent can give to their offspring is the
recessive ( B ) allele. Breeding two blues together doubles up the recessive trait to (dd) which
modifies the dominant (As) allele to blue. If a resulting offspring happens to get the (Ay) allele
from one of its parents, then the (dd) will modify this color to a fawn/bluies. If breeders are
breeding dogs for the blue color, since the gene is homozygous recessive, 100% of their
offspring will be (dd) and depending on the (As) or (Ay) allele on the Locus A series will have
blue or fawn/bluies pups.
Question # 2: It is possible to produce a puppy with a black nose from two parents, both
with red noses?
The red nose in our breed is produced from the Locus B pair with the homozygous recessive
(bb) genotype in combination with the (Ay-) genotype. Mating two dogs with the genotype (bb)
the result would be 100% of the pups having red noses (bb). If a pup with a black nose was
produced in one of my litters where both parents had red noses, then DNA testing with
parentage verification would be necessary to determine the actual sire to the black nose pup.
New alleles can be produced through mutation, but proof of parentage would have to be
determined using DNA to rule out a duel sired litter.
Question # 3: Where does the chocolate color come from?
The chocolate color comes from the Locus B pair with the homozyous recessive (bb) in
combination with the (As) allele. The dilution gene (dd) will also modify this dark chocolate to
a light or almost milk chocolate. In most cases, the nose color is also light brown or as we say
‘chocolate/red nose’.
Question # 4: How did I produce a brindle from a line that has never had brindle dogs?
The Locus E Series (Ebr) allele causes the brindle color pattern when this dominant allele is
present in combination with the (Ay) allele. The (Ebr) allele is dominant except in dogs with
the (As) allele. In the case of the (As), the (Ebr) allele does not have a light pigment to work
on, the brindle will remain hidden. In tracing a brindle dogs bloodline, somewhere in the
generations you should see a brindle dog since the (Ebr) allele is dominant. Again, if this was
my litter, I would ask for parentage verification using DNA to rule out a dual sired litter.
In conclusion, I would like to advise breeders to look beyond a dog color in determining quality
in terms of breeding stock. Selection should be made looking to breed type, temperament,
structural soundness and overall health in that order. If the colors of the pups that result from
your breeding ‘Just doesn’t make sense’, invest in parentage verification using DNA testing.
The cost is cheap, and the peace of mind is great.


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## Marty

*HEALTH AND THE MERLE PATTERN:*

The American Dog Breeders Association Inc. has done a review of the current report by Scot E. Dowd Ph.D. that was done for the AKC and UKC in regards to the merle color pattern. We have also contacted numerous breeders who have had direct experience with dogs containing this color pattern and have researched the pedigrees of dogs that have been registered with our association being described as 'merle'. The Board Of Directors has reviewed this material and breeders reports and has spent many hours in discussion concerning what our policy should be in regards to this color pattern.

In talking to breeders and doing additional research, it is apparent that this color pattern is not "new' to the breed. What is new to the breed is using the correct term merle to describe this color pattern. In 2001 at the urging of our fanciers, a list of 'ACCEPTED TERMS TO DESCRIBE COLORS' was adopted in an effort to enhance common understanding among fanciers of the breed. Up to this time these dogs with the merle color pattern were described as spotted, mottled, incorrectly as brindle , and in some incidences not addressed in the color description of the dog at all. In formulating the 'ACCEPTED TERMS TO DESCRIBE COLORS' within our breed, the ADBA sought out breeders and did a literature search of accepted canine references to come up with the terms that would be accepted to most accurately describe colors and color patterns. It was felt at that time, that the most accurate description of this color pattern is the term 'merle'. In certain bloodlines we have verified merle dogs back four and five generations in the pedigree.

It is also true that the merle color pattern has not been a prevalent color pattern in the breed. We feel that this is because of its associated genetic weaknesses that occur in some individuals with this flawed gene. Prior to 1976, when the US Agricultural Department with the Animal Welfare Act of 1976, made it a federal offense to transport dogs across state lines for the purpose of fighting, many breeders were using the dogs for their 'genetic task' (dogfighting). Any dogs with physical weaknesses were eliminated from the breeding pool since they did not measure up. This is why bloodlines closest to their 'genetic task' will contain the most sound specimens of the breed. This is true in the American Pit Bull Terrier as well as all performance breeds. Since The Animal Welfare Act of 1976 breeders and fanciers have turned their attention to legal activities for this breed namely conformation shows and weight pulling events. The first dog shows for the American Dog Breeders Association were held in 1977 and weight pulling events started a few years later. Today breeders no longer have the original 'measuring stick' upon which to select brood stock, and thus selection is made using other criteria including color.

Before we go any further, here is some background information on the genetic components of color and genetic inheritance of color in the dog for common understanding:

There are nine different locations or loci on the chromosomes that have a combined effect to determine the color of a particular dog. At each locus, there can be found many variations or alleles that can be dominant or recessive in nature. Chromosomes come in pairs, so each dogs has two different alleles at each locus on the chromosome pairs, and depending on the dominance of the alleles contained at the locus determines the color of the individual. The genetic material of any mammal (including the dog) is inherited one half from the mother and one half from the father. The final characteristics of the offspring is determined by the new combination that results and the dominance or recessive nature of the alleles that they inherit.

What is Merle?

The merle color pattern is determined by the Locus M Pair and contains two alleles,( M) resulting in the merle pattern or (m) resulting in uniform pigment. The (M) being dominant and the ( m) being recessive.(For those used to the equine arena, this is the same allele that causes the dapple color pattern in horses.) The merle acts like other dilution alleles to lighten whatever color would otherwise have been expressed. However the (M) allele in the heterozygous state (Mm) the lighted effect is not spread evenly over the coat, but produces patches of undiluted color scattered over the dogs body. Example: the (Mm) genotype on an otherwise black dog produces a blue merle which is seen as a bluish gray dog with full color black spots. A dog with homozygous merle (MM), possessing two dominant merle (M) alleles at the Locus M Pair, is seen as a mostly white dog. The normal state of the merle locus is dual recessive (mm) and completely lacks the offending transposon allele resulting in normal color. ( We will discuss the term transposon and the physiological effects of this allele in a few minutes.) Knowing that the allele that produces the merle color pattern is dominant, when we see a merle dog, we know that one of its parents must be a merle. Knowing that the merle gene is dominant, breeding a merle dogs to a dog that does not have the affected merle allele (mm), the resulting litter would have the probability to produce 50% merles (Mm) and 50% unaffected pups (mm). Breeding two merle dogs (Mm) the resulting litter would have the probability of being 25% unaffected (mm), 50% merle (Mm) and 25% white (MM).

Health issues associated with the merle allele

The (M) allele is an excellent example of pleiotropy, the phenomenon where a single allele can cause distinct and seeming unrelated physical effects. Even in the heterozygous (Mm) dog the (M) allele is associated with deafness, eye defects, and problems with the dogs immune system. This can be explained by understanding a little bit about the early fetal development of the dog.

The process of coloration and color pattern in dogs begins with embryonic development. The specific cells that become the pigment producing cells come entirely from the same area of the embryo (neuronal crest) that the cells of the nervous system comes from. It stands to reason, that if you have defects in genes associated with color genetics you can have nervous system defects because both cells are derived from the same neuronal crest. This can explain why it is likely that certain dilute or patterned dogs, such as extreme piebalds, albinos, etc. as well as those that have the merle allele are prone to sensory, neurological and /or immunological problems. These defects have been observed and researched in other dog breeds (i.e. Australian Shepherds, Great Danes, Shetland Sheepdogs) that also carry these dilution alleles including the merle allele.

From this research it has been determined that the merle allele when expressed in the homozygous state (MM) is highly correlated to sensory, neurological and immune system defects in dogs. Some include distortion of the eye's appearance, lack of the reflective substance (tapetum lucidum) that lines the back of the dogs eye. Dogs that lack this substance have night blindness and other visual problems. Other eye problems have been identified with the merle allele includes, small eyeballs, with a prominent third eyelids, and a physical cleft in the iris of the eye. Abnormalities of the eyes are a key indicator of other neurological defects. Deafness or a reduction in hearing has also been identified, as the merle color locus exerts effects on ear development. Excessive white or dilution in a dog of any color can be a warning sign of hearing problems. From talking to breeders who's lines contain merle dogs, they relate that they are very aware of the potential health problems (sometimes being lethal to the affected pups) resulting in the?????

*Have no idea how to find the rest of the post... but can be found here...*

American Dog Breeders Association


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## pitbullfanatic

WOW, we are HOT now. 2 pages of posts in one day. Lets keep it going. If you have a source then please be courteous and cite it.

And Marty THANKS. That is a bunch of useful information. If people would like me to follow all my citings the same with their full source please feel free to ask.

Here you go to keep the fun going. For anybody that gets tired reading you should leave this post now.



Jenna23 said:


> Where do _you_ come from? You're like a GD pit bull encyclopedia! (WHAT spelled it right first try!)
> Somehow fanatic just doesn't seem like the right word lol


 Thanks. I constantly study the subject so this board has really helped encourage me to continue to dig deeper.



ForPits&Giggles said:


> I looked at "Blue Eye" and found a black and white dog with no blue eyes.... Perhaps just another name you are taking too literally? I mean, even if a dog does have a blue eye doesnt make it merle...last time I checked Merle was just a coat color, and many dogs born with blue eyes/blue eye dont have the Merle pattern. Also, I didnt check every single one because their are alot of offspring, but I didnt find "blue eyes" or "merle" patterns in a single one, I find it hard to believe that not a sinlge one of those dogs wouldnt have gotten the "merle" gene from "Blue Eye"


 Here you go from Carver's site: ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [209809] :: *VILLA LIBERTY´S CARVER 2**

Oh and the link you provided was somewhat distorted so this seems to be a more clear one from the Carver resource site: http://www.villaliberty.org/legend_archivos/image079.jpg

It is amazing how a clear pictures can make things clear.

It is quite obvious it is a strain of Pits, where the strain name came in fact from. The stock had blue eyes. Not all necessarily. All it takes though is one and there are a multitude of examples.



redsky said:



blue eyes are not a merle trait it's from a lack of pigment man it is amazing what folks believe.

Click to expand...




redsky said:



Merle is just a coat color lol I decided to stay away from this thread cause it's just a big fight but merle is just a coat color some of them have blue eyes some don't.... Every dog that has blue eyes is NOT a merle....

Click to expand...




pimpidypimp said:



Dog's with blue eye's, they got no merle!

They got the "blue eye" but no merle! Never had it, never will!

Click to expand...

 Scot Dowd: "The first are eye development problems that are superficial in nature affecting appearance such as heterochromia iridis (A difference of color between the iris of one eye and the other), "thus a dog with one brown and one blue eye has heterochromia iridis." American Pit Bull Terrier Network Merle and the Pit Bull

How Merle is expressed is based on many complex factors and how it reacts with other genes and traits such as piebald and irish spotting and whiting genes and traits. This is also how Merle may remain hidden genetically.

"Scot E. Dowd First it should be noted that there are ways that the merle can remain hidden such as within a complete phaeomelanic coat where the merle would not be evident, also there are cryptic merles" American Pit Bull Terrier Network Merle and the Pit Bull

Re-read the posts that are left. I have always held to the precept that not all blue eyes are merle but that merle is "a" trait that yields the blue eye/eyes. Other traits may also yield such. Exclusion of one however does not exclude all. It is not up to me to try and prove that all are Merle, the evidence says some. To make your theory valid this means "you" would have to prove ALL that have blue eye/eyes are NOT Merle. Since the actual test was not patented for Merle until 2007 then it would seem that there is no way to win a debate on the fact you are surmising that ALL are not Merle. It only takes the possibility of some to win this debate.

Bulldoggin and others who may have not had the opportunity to view all posts on the topic the older posts are dropping so I will continue to cite so these are not lost for reference.



Rock Creek Kennels said:



Misleading? Youre the one saying that merle is an acceptable color when it's not. I showed you in your own link that you posted for "Colbys Merle" that he was not a merle dog, but a tan/white dog.

So who here is really misleading?

Click to expand...

 Did Colby's Merle have a blue eye? Can you say unequivocally no.

First I have not said it is an acceptable color to the ADBA or the UKC. I have said that it used to be accepted by them. 2001 marked the transition where they began removing them from registration. This was not done due to purity issue according to the ADBA but as a matter of health.

More evidence:
1936 AKC (American Staffordshire Terrier) Standard
Color- Any color, solid, or parti or patched is permissible, but all white, more than 80% white, black and tan, and liver not to be encouraged.

1978 UKC Standard 
Eyes- Round. Should set far apart, low down on skull. Any color acceptable.
Color- Any color or marking permissible

ADBA - American Dog Breeders Association "The merle gene has existed in the history of ADBA registered dogs, but breeders who used the dogs for their historic 'genetic task', found there were genetic flaws with dogs that have this color pattern. These dogs were culled, and not used as breeding stock. The ADBA recognized the fact that dogs with this merle color pattern were present in the breed, but they were not identified as 'merle'. Most breeders described this color pattern as spotted, mottled or incorrectly as brindle. In 2001, with the development of ADBA's "ACCEPTED TERMS TO DESCRIBE COLORS", the term 'merle' was added to more correctly identify this color pattern."

"As of February 21, 2005 single registration of dogs with the merle color pattern will no longer be accepted. The registration status of merle dogs already in the studbook will not be affected."

"The registration status of merle dogs already in the studbook will not be affected."

ADBA "The ADBA recognized the fact that dogs with this merle color pattern were present in the breed, but they were not identified as 'merle'. Most breeders described this color pattern as spotted, mottled or incorrectly as brindle." - American Dog Breeders Association

"It has been rumored that irresponsible breeders striving to create a new designer color 'to market', have gone so far as to cross other breeds into their American Pit Bull Terriers to produce the merle color pattern in their lines." - This is where Scott Dowd comes into play." American Dog Breeders Association

If I have missed anything or not answered any questions please feel free to bring my attention to these and I will be happy to address such.*


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## Marty

In my 25 yrs with the game-bred dogs... I can honestly say I've never saw it in any of the 1000s of dogs I've seen 

So who knows


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## pitbullfanatic

Marty said:


> In my 25 yrs with the game-bred dogs... I can honestly say I've never saw it in any of the 1000s of dogs I've seen
> 
> So who knows


None with blue eye(s) either?


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## Rock Creek Kennels

pitbullfanatic said:


> Did Colby's Merle have a blue eye? Can you say unequivocally no.


You were under the assumption that because they named the dog "Merle", that it had a merle coat color. You also said that "merle" has been proven to go back into the Colby stuff which is not true. I dont know if the dog had a blue eye or not. I'm sure Louis could answer that one for you.


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## Rock Creek Kennels

pitbullfanatic said:


> None with blue eye(s) either?


Ive seen a few with blue eyes through the years. They have always been either unregistered or ckc registered though.


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## Bulldoggin

Well, now I am confused...
Are you saying that all dogs with blue eyes carry the merle gene or that merle dogs have blue eyes? 

Not exactly sure what your point is fanatic, could you spell it out for me in a lil more straight forward terms.

Cause Blue eyes do not necessarily mean Merle gene, but yes merle dogs can have blue eyes, but so do huskies, and alot of other dogs, kinda perdy if you ask me, but I'm curious about what you are trying to point out.


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## IndianCreek

Colby's Merle was not a merle patterned dog, he was a tan and white dog that was named quite a common name for the time.


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## Rock Creek Kennels

GAPITS said:


> Colby's Merle was not a merle patterned dog, he was a tan and white dog that was named quite a common name for the time.


We figured that out, just need to know what color his eyes were.


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## IndianCreek

Cannot be 100% certain as it was a picture of the dog that I saw (black and white/sepia toned) and obviously not the actual dog (I might be old, but I ain't that old, lmao...) but in the picture the dog did not appear to have light colored eyes, it appeared to have very dark eyes.


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## Rock Creek Kennels

GAPITS said:


> Cannot be 100% certain as it was a picture of the dog that I saw (black and white/sepia toned) and obviously not the actual dog (I might be old, but I ain't that old, lmao...) but in the picture the dog did not appear to have light colored eyes, it appeared to have very dark eyes.


There's a link on here somewhere to the peds. online of Colbys Merle. Has a pic of him, but its prob. the same one you have already seen.


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## pitbullfanatic

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> There's a link on here somewhere to the peds. online of Colbys Merle. Has a pic of him, but its prob. the same one you have already seen.


Have not been able to find a positive picture yet but still looking. If you find one let me know. Also check out Carvers dog's, which some do have blue eye(s).

In regards to blue eyes this can be a Merle trait. I am not saying that blue is Merle always I am saying sometimes blue is Merle. A Merle blue eye will be more of a transparent blue and not a darker blue. If just one blue eyed Pit is Merle then this opens the possibility for others to be. If this is the case then purity in the breed is thus established. Also if just one pure bred Pit with blue eye(s) is Merle then this means any number could be.

The only real way to tell yes or no about Merle is through a Merle test, which was patented in 2007, but is still not commercially available it appears as the company went out of business and sold the patent to another. I have contacted them and waiting for a response but still none yet so I assume they are not making it available either yet.

Just for clarity when something is Merle this may be based on either the coat or eyes not just the coat alone. If something has a normal coat but a Merle eye it is still Merle genetically.


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## pimpidypimp

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Ive seen a few with blue eyes through the years. They have always been either unregistered or ckc registered though.


 The dogs down from Boyle's Dirty Mary (ROM) will have blue eye's now and then, there are/where no merles in the line! They are strait up, true blue, fastlane gamebred bulldawgs!


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## pitbullfanatic

pimpidypimp said:


> The dogs down from Boyle's Dirty Mary (ROM) will have blue eye's now and then, there are/where no merles in the line! They are strait up, true blue, fastlane gamebred bulldawgs!


One again, not all blue is Merle. However without a Merle test if the blue you speak of is a clear blue as opposed to a dark blue then it is possible that they are Merle. Your assumption is based strictly on the coat alone. To consider the situation in your manner then it would be the same as someone denying the coat being Merle just because the eye(s) are not.

The way the gene expresses itself in the eye and coat it seems can be both mutually exclusive or together based on other genetic factors. What is currently understood though is that it is a gene that does effect the pigmentation process and thus all aspects of development that are pigment related can be effected. This is why in part and for good reason the concern in health issues such as sight and hearing, which are development processes often effected by pigment.

"These dogs often have heterochromia iridis or blue eyes and often have a lack of retinal pigment visible on the fundus." Coat colour in dogs: identification of the Merle locus in the Australian shepherd breed

The reason Merle represents itself in the eye's or coat specifically is based in many cases on other acting genes and traits such as irish spotting, tweed, piebald, cea, etc. If you have a line that expresses just eyes then this is likely based on its genetic relations with other genes and traits. Sometimes genes modify each other sometimes they cancel each other. Sometimes they are mutually exclusive.

*Elementary merle genetics for newcomers - Merle Genetics*

Retrotransposon insertion in _SILV_ is responsible for merle patterning of the domestic dog - 
From the Cover: Retrotransposon insertion in SILV is responsible for merle patterning of the domestic dog

For all you deep science people you will want to bookmark this database as it is a great research tool.









*Welcome to PubMed Central (PMC)*, the U.S. National Library of Medicine's digital archive of biomedical and life sciences journal literature, providing free access to the full text of articles. - PMC Home


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## redsky

Does anyone over here own or breed merles? I'm just wondering why this thread is still going it seems rather pointless and redundant to me.....


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## cane76

redsky said:


> Does anyone over here own or breed merles? I'm just wondering why this thread is still going it seems rather pointless and redundant to me.....


there is one who does,can ya guess who,who has the agenda?


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## American_Pit13

cane76 said:


> there is one who does,can ya guess who,who has the agenda?


Who? I wanna know lol......


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## BOYOU PITTS

american_pit13 said:


> Merle is not necessarily an American Bully color. Just because a dog is mixed doesn't make it Ambully. I think it is very possible that Merle is a recessive gene brought out due to inbreeding especially because of the health issues that follow. But because of the health issues it is a color we don't need ( sad to me because I think it is gorgeous). As for Blue Sadie is right it is a dilute of black and very well can come from APBT lines not just Amstaff lines.
> 
> Here are some pics of Merle because I know alot of newer people don't know the color.
> To add this guy raises Merles and has never had any of the health issues that usually come with this color. Tho he also doesn't breed Merle to Merle I believe.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Tocho Blue Merle
> 
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> 
> Raja Chocolate Merle
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> Wanted to add Merle in the APBT is more a pattern than a color The blue part or chocolate or whatever color just goes with the pattern.
> 
> So my question is is it likely that a pattern has been brought out from inbreeding?


This blue merle is one of the best looking dogs I have ever seen. Taco is a beast!


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## BOYOU PITTS

I really like the color and pattern. One of the best looking dogs I have ever seen!


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## hell no they wont go

BOYOU PITTS said:


> I really like the color and pattern. One of the best looking dogs I have ever seen!


lol wow i had no idea this old a** thread caused so much drama!! ne ways yeah merle is a nice looken color but nothing we want in an apbt.


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