# Is Red, Red? Or "chocolate"?



## Jodie

Just curious what color He is considered.


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## MSK

Chocolateup:

This is red


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## DickyT

MSK said:


> Chocolateup:


:thumbsup:

And very cute!


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## Jodie

Thanks I was thinking he was chocolate after I saw and learned more about the colors, Then I started over analizing it and got confused lol


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## Goemon

That is dark red. Chocolate is a novice term. No ApBT's in history were called chocolate.

Just shows the newbies that call them chocolate are just that...newbies.

For verification go to the Old Family *Red* Nose Registry:

http://ofrnr.com/Forms_OFRNR.html


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## Goemon

Jodie said:


> Thanks I was thinking he was chocolate after I saw and learned more about the colors, Then I started over analizing it and got confused lol


Just where are you learning of your colors? Whoever said chocolate is wrong. I left a link.

Good looking pup though.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

i kinda thought that might be considered dark red. i have a link to a coat color genetics site at home.... but not here of course.


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## Goemon

Odin, I think you have seen a pic of one of my females and she is dark red brindle, same color as that pup has on the coat, with the brindle of course. 

I have had a couple fools call her chocolate. That is blasphemy in the OFRN circles. LOL


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## ~StangChick~

what's up with this color chart? American Dog Breeders Association


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## Goemon

~StangChick~ said:


> what's up with this color chart? American Dog Breeders Association


The ADBA became more concerned about the show crowd, and the money.

Simple as that. The people running things today have forsaken the tradition to fill their pockets.

That is why the registries are all messed up with oversized mutts posing as ApBT's.

I think my silver red brindle dog would be called champaigne, lol Idiots.


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## ~StangChick~

ahh ok, I will not reference it anymore then.


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## Goemon

That's just my opinion. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. lol

People are just trying to recreate history, and add names that were never there.


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## ~StangChick~

You have valid opinions.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Goemon said:


> Odin, I think you have seen a pic of one of my females and she is dark red brindle, same color as that pup has on the coat, with the brindle of course.
> 
> I have had a couple fools call her chocolate. That is blasphemy in the OFRN circles. LOL


I think i have. but i always like seeing good dogs  but yeah i know that OFRN is very proud of their reds. thats for sure. light red and dark red and all.

i had an interesting conversation with a friend on FB. i always considered my Banshee "red nose/buckskin" but i guess buckskin is only black nose and that i should consider her light red. but i never have seen red tint in her fur.

oh ... i might be thread jacking... sorry >.<


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## Goemon

Robert Hemphill used the term "silver buckskin" for the silver reds.

Here is my silver red brindle pup:

He looks like a throwback of GR CH Iron Koko from way back in the ped, IMO

Here is dark red brindle:


I wouldn't call trying to make corrections hijacking.


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## Saint Francis

Jodie said:


> Just curious what color He is considered.


Good looking pup for sure. Any background on him.....from whom did you purchase him, pedigree, etc.? BTW, Goemon is correct on all accounts.


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## Saint Francis

Goemon said:


> Robert Hemphill used the term "silver buckskin" for the silver reds.
> 
> Here is my silver red brindle pup:
> 
> He looks like a throwback of GR CH Iron Koko from way back in the ped, IMO
> 
> Here is dark red brindle:
> 
> 
> I wouldn't call trying to make corrections hijacking.


There they are!!!! That silver red brindle really shows up in that photo G.......just beautiful. And how did you get a hold of my dog for that second photo? LOL
BTW, staples came out clean tonight.


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## Goemon

Saint Francis said:


> There they are!!!! That silver red brindle really shows up in that photo G.......just beautiful. And how did you get a hold of my dog for that second photo? LOL
> BTW, staples came out clean tonight.


LOL, glad his staples came out clean....just be careful with him next time! 

They could pass as twins I think, and only you and I could tell them apart, barring the sex, lol.

I just didn't feel like looking up other dogs of that color, so used some old ones.

She was only six months in the pic, if I remember correctly.

B was under a year in that pic. He'll turn two near end of year.


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## MSK

And not everyone goes by OFRN registry just saying. Either way its the same color but not just a Red.


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## Goemon

MSK said:


> And not everyone goes by OFRN registry just saying. Either way its the same color but not just a Red.


Correction: you mean that not everyone today follows the traditional standard.

What idiot, mind you, could possibly call a red nose dog chocolate, which is brown?

As for the OFRN Registry, the founders have been in the dogs longer than the majority of you have been alive.

I'd call that a higher authority than anyone else, particularly regarding this strain of bulldog.

I heard a quote today:* "Google can bring you back 100,000 answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one." *
― Neil Gaiman

To put this in modern terms, *"Show fanciers can bring you back 100,000 answers, but only a dogman will give you the right one!"*

Go to the history books.....to learn the truth. Or, talk to those who were there, and had a part in the true history of the ApBT, not the doggie parks and poopsie doodles.


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## Raiderblue

So your saying the color of a chocolate lab, is also actually "dark red" too?


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

G.. i LOVE that silver red brindle! hes a looker for sure. ...

so for clarification... is she a silver red buckskin? her bottom jaw does have some light "liver"ish color on it.


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## Goemon

Raiderblue said:


> So your saying the color of a chocolate lab, is also actually "dark red" too?


Different breed. I'm speaking strictly of Old Family *RED* Nose.


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## Goemon

Odin`s_BlueDragon said:


> G.. i LOVE that silver red brindle! hes a looker for sure. ...
> 
> so for clarification... is she a silver red buckskin? her bottom jaw does have some light "liver"ish color on it.


I'd call her light red.

And thanks.. He loves women! LOL


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## Firehazard

Just a red buckskin... a fawn variation or mutation but red non the less

Chocolate?? nah thats just Brown.. Buckskin, Yellow, Tan.. all mutations of red which is a mutation of black so they're actually all mutations of black.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Goemon said:


> I'd call her light red.


well ur the second person i trust thats called her light red so i'll go with it. too bad her papers state "red nose/buckskin"


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## Goemon

Firehazard said:


> Just a red buckskin... a fawn variation or mutation but red non the less
> 
> Chocolate?? nah thats just Brown.. Buckskin, Yellow, Tan.. all mutations of red which is a mutation of black so they're actually all mutations of black.


Any black on a red nose dog disqualifies it from being an OFRN. Food for thought FH.

Buckskin was a color used by some old timers though.

I am 100% old school, and could care less about the new, but you already know that. haha


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## Goemon

Odin`s_BlueDragon said:


> well ur the second person i trust thats called her light red so i'll go with it. too bad her papers state *"red nose/buckskin"*


Hey, it's better than chocolate, lol.


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## TheHiddenAngel

Firehazard said:


> Just a red buckskin... a fawn variation or mutation but red non the less
> 
> Chocolate?? nah thats just Brown.. Buckskin, Yellow, Tan.. all mutations of red which is a mutation of black so they're actually all mutations of black.


:goodpost:


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## Raiderblue

Goemon said:


> Different breed. I'm speaking strictly of Old Family *RED* Nose.


Ok, not arguing, because you seem like you know your stuff. Just saying it's literally the same coat color. So I figured chocolate


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## Goemon

Raiderblue said:


> Ok, not arguing, because you seem like you know your stuff. Just saying it's literally the same coat color. So I figured chocolate


Ok. Here is a pic taken in the sunlight. Can you see the red better? I can't see that in a chocolate lab. They are pretty much a solid color in any ray of light, IMO. 
I have yet to see the "red" tint in one, but I can't say I have seen a whole lot.

One thing about true OFRN dogs is that they often have what is called an OFRN dorsal stripe. 
It is a line down their back, hard to see, but from right angle and in the light, you can eye it. 
It is said to be inherited from the old Irish blood and passed on until today. 
Even my silver red brindle has one. Especially after a bath.


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## Jodie

Saint Francis said:


> Good looking pup for sure. Any background on him.....from whom did you purchase him, pedigree, etc.? BTW, Goemon is correct on all accounts.


I got him from a guy in mississippi, his parents were from "hog dogs" in alabama, his mom is BullyPedia | The Premiere All Bully Breed Certified Pedigree Database

His dad was one of the sweetest dogs i've ever met, he was ckc registered though so who knows if the 3 generations on his papers are even correct









Honestly I could care less what he is called, I will love him the same. purple.. green, I just dont want to sound ignorant when talking about my dog. Thanks for all of the replys and I learned a couple things, I AM a newbie, he is my first pit bull, and 2nd dog. I have alot of learning to do, thats one of the reasons i'm here. I am led to believe he is far from an ofrn? IDK...


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## Goemon

Jodie said:


> Honestly I could care less what he is called, I will love him the same. purple.. green, I just dont want to sound ignorant when talking about my dog. Thanks for all of the replys and I learned a couple things, I AM a newbie, he is my first pit bull, and 2nd dog. I have alot of learning to do, thats one of the reasons i'm here. I am led to believe he is far from an ofrn? IDK...


Good to see you can at least trace the ancestry. After seeing that I know your pup is not even an OFRN.

That is ok. I see more staff in there than anything. (I never call a blue dog an ApBT..they took the show road in 1936)

I'm honestly scratching my head about it, after looking at the pup. 
Did you see any of the other pups in the litter? Were they various colors? Mix of black and red nose?

I wouldn't trust the registry, but at least you're happy with the pup.


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## Jodie

This was the litter, all his color (and 2 a shade darker & lighter) with a couple black ones, It was an accidental litter, His dad got neutered right after


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## Goemon

Just as I thought, after seeing the ped. 

Your pup did have the look of some fine OFRN pups I have seen though, lol.


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## Raiderblue

Goemon said:


> Ok. Here is a pic taken in the sunlight. Can you see the red better? I can't see that in a chocolate lab. They are pretty much a solid color in any ray of light, IMO.
> I have yet to see the "red" tint in one, but I can't say I have seen a whole lot.
> 
> One thing about true OFRN dogs is that they often have what is called an OFRN dorsal stripe.
> It is a line down their back, hard to see, but from right angle and in the light, you can eye it.
> It is said to be inherited from the old Irish blood and passed on until today.
> Even my silver red brindle has one. Especially after a bath.


Wow, your right, I can definately notice the red in the sunlight. Touché. Dark red for sure.


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## Jodie

Is that the/a stripe on his back you are talking about?


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## Raiderblue

If you don't mind me asking, what part of Mississippi did you get him from? Was he a craigslist dog? I like his parents


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## Jodie

He was on facebook actually, It was between hattiesburg and mccomb, I forgot the name of the area but it was backwoods middle of nowhere and i almost ran out of gas and must have ran over 10 dead skunks otw there..


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## Goemon

Jodie said:


> Is that the/a stripe on his back you are talking about?


Hard to tell from the pic, since it appears too visible, as if it is part of the "whole coat." 
I see the same shade on the head, but that is viewing from a pic.


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## Zagari

What color would you call this dog? He's registered as chocolate with two different registries. His relatives and littermate brother have done really well with the OFRN registry. I don't see any "red" in his coat. He's just dark brown. 


Just for fun, I'm curious about this dog too. Light red? Red fawn? Red buckskin?


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## Goemon

I would call the colors dark red and light red, according to OFRNR standards. 

There is NO chocolate allowed in the OFRN, and if his relatives are in the OFRNR it is because they are of proven traditional OFRN blood and they are red. 

Chocolate would never be an accepted color in the OFRNR, because "brown" is not an OFRN color.
If a dog is not red coated, it cannot be classified as an OFRN. 
It is always a variation of red, with or without white. 
I have also never heard an OFRN dog called fawn, except by newbies. 

You should ask the owners what color they are listed as in the registry.


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## Zagari

His breeder said her dogs are registered as dark red and silver red. The one I was thinking of who took a best in show down in FL was an older brother, same parents. He's the silver red.


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## Goemon

After clicking on it he does look more silver red. Mine that I posted is the same, just brindle. 

Why would other registries give them a different color? 

IMO, this is the greatest cause of confusion. I just heard of "Chocolate pits" this week to be honest, and I have known men who have had the dogs all their life, since the 80's. (they are 60+ yrs old now)
None of them ever said chocolate. 
All one need do is go through the ApBT history books and magazines, from the pre-80's.
Eliminate all the crazy color names invented after that period, and things would get simpler and more real. 

To be traditional is to go to the foundation. Anyone who attempts to change that tradition, breaks it. 

Who knows, maybe the breed will be extinct one day due to all the peddling. 
Now there are mearle and seal colored breeders. What a joke. Peddlers in the third degree. 

Then again, the show crowd has been ruining everything for some time. (ADBA is going down that road now)


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## Zagari

Zagari said:


> His breeder said her dogs are registered as dark red and silver red. The one I was thinking of who took a best in show down in FL was an older brother, same parents. He's the silver red.


The one called silver red.
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [49772] :: BLAIZEN'S CENA

My dog Pirate is significantly darker. But you're right. All the different names for the same color is very confusing. There's a lot of variation within his litter. Some very light, a couple really dark like him. Some in between. If you search the ped posted above, I think most of the dogs have pictures.


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## Goemon

Good looking boy...has some of the same expressions my female has that I posted above and below.
Here is another, without the sunlight, and she looks darker too.


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## Zagari

Your dog is very lovely. I like the brindle a lot. Probably my favorite color/pattern in this breed.


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## Firehazard

Zigari your dog is red just like G's... OFRN all colors should be avariant of RED.. CLUE.. RED NOSE.. with that means RED MUTATION and there are many. All still RED. Fancy wanna be color scheme names are just furmommy names. Stick to the colors by the ADBA, OFRN, BFKC .. you'll see why most dogmen do not use the term blue or chocolate. ADBA has adopted more variants but its still pretty short and sweet.

With the red nose if they're bred up proper you'll see black nails copper eyes and what appears to be black hair but is dark red as a dorsal stripe or smut over lay down to the tail.









Buckskin with a red smut over lay you can only see when hes in the sun... he's primarily dibo sub strains back together stacking dead dogs, dibo (an old family red dog)....


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## Jodie

mine is also 30lbs at 15 weeks.. Thought that was kind of huge.


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## Firehazard

Some dogs grow fast..depending on strain(or sub strain or outcross dominants) that guy there is just now 35lbs and he's 8mos, he'll top out bigger than expected upto 45lb. Usually rule of thumb is not done growin til 2. Even if they're full grown at6mos or 8mos their bone matter and density IS NOT.


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## Goemon

Just so everyone can know, here is the standard of the OFRN strain, as established by the OFRNR.

http://ofrnr.com/OFRNR_Registration_Information.html

Some key points are: 
"Only colors accepted are red and silver red, with shades light to dark."

Only markings allowed are brindle (which must be red, not black) and no more than 25% white on the dog.
An all white head is not accepted, as it is not in the tradition of the strain.

"No black at all is allowed."
No black is allowed anywhere on the dog at all, neither the nails or the paws.

No widows peak dogs are allowed to register. They are not in the tradition of the OFRN strain.

"No dog is to exceed 75 pounds."

If people with OFRN dogs would memorize this, it is easy to spot the real from the fake. 
Not a lot here to remember. Rather simple. Nothing confusing about it.


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## Jodie

This is his dads pedigree, if anyone recognises those dogs by chance


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## Firehazard

Goemon said:


> Just so everyone can know, here is the standard of the OFRN strain, as established by the OFRNR.
> 
> http://ofrnr.com/OFRNR_Registration_Information.html
> 
> Some key points are:
> "Only colors accepted are red and silver red, with shades light to dark."
> 
> Only markings allowed are brindle (which must be red, not black) and no more than 25% white on the dog.
> An all white head is not accepted, as it is not in the tradition of the strain.
> 
> "No black at all is allowed."
> No black is allowed anywhere on the dog at all, neither the nails or the paws.
> 
> No widows peak dogs are allowed to register. They are not in the tradition of the OFRN strain.
> 
> "No dog is to exceed 75 pounds."
> 
> If people with OFRN dogs would memorize this, it is easy to spot the real from the fake.
> Not a lot here to remember. Rather simple. Nothing confusing about it.


funny i've already posted a dog of IM that has that smut over lay some of the folks here probably remember that.

Like I said, thats a private club more than a bloodline these days. The Old stuff is almost all but gone and Crossed out not in a manner where one could still say these are "my" family's dogs.. Now they are truly "his" dogs. Not taking anythign away in case thats how one may read this. Its Just not the same. I laugh at silver red as much as I do all the foo foo names that come up.. IF its silver red then its a form of SEAL because it has WHITE hairs that make the SILVER sheen or it has near BLACK hairs (dark red) promoting that sheen. SO you can call it what you want. Im a stick with ADBA and BFKC along with standard genetic primaries.

I believe people need to dial it down a notch.. If its Seal its red seal or black seal if its buckskin its red, yellow, tan or dirty as buckskin is just that it comes in an array of red tans and yellows. Silver reds will eventualy turn weimeraner gray. WHICH HAS WHITE. Its simple genetics. By implying silver you are implying white. Im pretty sure who ever made that rule doesnt know that believe that and will have to confirm it with someone with a biology degree.  and still may not give a  LOL

Keep it simple.. Red.............. and variants of on a true genetic perspective not that of the creative eye.


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## Goemon

Silver red has been around longer than the "foo foo" namers have been alive. Hemphill said it himself. You are the ONLY one trying to change history here, not me. 

As far as I know, FH, all the stuff you say comes from, YOUR OWN HEAD AND MIND. Not authentic, no matter how you label it. True dogmen never went around trying to figure out what color the inside of a dogs ass looks like, just to argue and debate about it.. All of your strain, sub-strain, wolf-dog, evolution, biolutionary, geneticalosis, and other heresies thus far unknown to man....all that does is make a sh$%ty mess even messier, IMO. Screws newbies up even more. Why can;t people KISS? Keep It Simple Stupid? 

All that BS talk of seal color is nonsense. Go ahead and stick with the traitors, who would sell their souls for a dollar. ADBA is NOT what it once was...the show crowd has put their foot down...and pockets getting fat is what it is all about, because those at the top figured out how dumb and gullible pet owners are. 

BFKC? What a joke......

Old blood gone? LOL, you have no idea what you are talking about. When dogs get rare it doesn't mean there are no breedings. It means the breeder isn't a peddler, in it for the money. 

Now you say an official judge who "made those rules" according to traditional standards doesn't know what they are talking about? Wow, what you been smoking in the mountains? Suddenly you know more than former dogmen? Yeah, okay.....


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

hey woah... difference in opinions can be had. lets keep the jabs, even if they are friendly, to a minimum. 

debate and discuss.


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## Goemon

Odin`s_BlueDragon said:


> hey woah... difference in opinions can be had. lets keep the jabs, even if they are friendly, to a minimum.
> 
> debate and discuss.


Well Odin, there is a difference between disagreeing, and then, on an open forum, where people already do not know their left from their right foot regarding these dogs come, there is discrediting an authentic registry devoted strictly to the Old Family Red Nose Strain (not a specific bloodline), which IS MORE THAN JUST A COLOR, as history can testify.

Here we have one (FH) discrediting the color of my dogs, based on his own PERSONAL opinion(which, by the way, is NOT authentic for anyone). There is not a black hair on an Old Family Red Nose dog, ever. The order of colors is rather simple, all based on RED. Light Red, Red, Silver Red, and Dark Red, any of which can have brindle and up to 25% white, excluding an all white head. Can't get any simpler than that.

Seal, smut, chocolate, brown, etc, are all amateur, generic, and peddler names of colors, which the ADBA gave into, because the ones in charge have no guts to stand against the majority, which is always wrong.

I didn't even point out the fact that Dibo was NOT an Old Family Red....they were extinct by the time Dibo was born. He was not even a red nose dog, just had some of the blood in him.

And I would really like to see a smut colored produced by IM. He has culled many dogs better than most on here will never have, so I highly doubt, if he had one, he would let it breath another breath. Unlike most breeders, "cull" is in his vocabulary, and not taboo. Most these days think it is a dirty name. "Poor puppy, it deserves to live! It is so cute!" People with that mentality are who ruined all the good blood over the years, by letting poor examples live and breed, and mass produce, and go into the hands of people who have no right to own these dogs....and the breeder he name dropped on, without cause, has produced more OFRN Champions than any other breeder in the history of the OFRN strain, and who in fact still has his OWN family of dogs from over 40 years ago (again, longer than many have lived), all from three dogs. Never outcrossed. Nobody can be googlized and then claim to know more.

And people should remember the words of JFK: *"No matter how big the lie; repeat it often enough and the masses will regard it as the truth." 
* Disinformation on these dogs should not be allowed, and be taken down.

I'm simply trying to stop a bunch of hogwash from being put into the minds of newbies. Whatever I say I base on history, or my personal opinion. I always say if it is my opinion or not, most of the time. I'll willingly disagree on personal opinions, as what works for one will not work for another, but I will not agree to disagree on common sense based on tradition and proven history. To do so is to condone the ignorance spread daily about the breed, by newbies that are so far from the truth they are basically walking blind, with no light in front of them.

I'll be glad to let IM know his name is being thrown out, and his dogs put into question. (And heaven help us if a newbie takes some of the posts on here as gospel!)

Ha, but I have to admit, I have never heard Private Club yet, lol. But, the fewer that own them, the better, IMO. Be a shame if these dogs went into the wrong hands.


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## Firehazard

Lightner had the first SEAL dog........ 

You crack me up, I do follow KISS ... as psych major its very important for everyone to get it in CRAYON. 

I also understand the genetic make up of a dog all the way to the wolf and understand the wolf like you older gents do these bulldogs. Yeh I mis a step or make a oversight here or there... obviously you've missed something or decided that you'd take a GENETIC point of view as a personal attack mixing it with my own personal opinion in which I was pretty sure there was a evident puncation to indicate seperation in thought. 

Also....... you guys in your group have gotta quit takin everything as a personal insult and throwing out insults that tend to get personal. Obviously you missed the point. Again IF YOU SELL anything Your PEDDLING. oke:

Just had some of the blood in him... LOL look at that dogs pedigree he's all old family top to bottom. Goemon in your own words a post back you also call Dibo Old family.. better go edit it. Also I said (hair that APPEARS to be black but is actually red) Also in other OFRN genetic discussion the topic of the 'Black' nails on the red nosed dog with copper eyes was the dog truest to old red nosed dogs was bragged on by you fellas. 

Also...... you arent only old timers out there who rubbed shoulders with heinzl, Jp, or Lightner... I see you promote corvino corvino corvino yet you dis other dogs with as much corvino as many OFRN those inbred DIBO dogs. 

Matter a fact if the people arent worshiping the ground and words yall speak; out come insults and bashing.. think not ?? FOLLOW EVERY convo that ya'll have ever been banned because of. Ya'll get pissed off and throw bricks instead of good sense. Also many times ya'll are wrong or have double talked yourselves and unlike myself.... refuse to acknowledge the mistake made in dialogue, when yall make em. 



Genetically those colors are Red mutations which red is a mutation of black.. If red reflects silver there are white hairs in there. Much like a dog that looks blue but is actually black white and red hair all mixed all over. It may very well be my OWN POV that the colors should be KISS and kept simple to the genetic color wheel. To me that is KISS. 

To start argument over silver red is moot... genetically there is no silver red. There is Red Seal. Seal was before silver red. Im pretty sure Lightners dogs preceeded. Seal can be red reflecting silver, black reflecting silver or black reflecting both red and silver. All mutations of each other. Which is actually Red with white mutation, or black with a mutation or without. .. NOW.. I never took anything away from anyone, matter fact I gave props. To take something to nitpic about is also moot. Like I said G'... Theres a post on a OFRN discussion where you say DIBO is Old Family.. not OFRN. So your arguing with yourself.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Goemon said:


> Well Odin, there is a difference between disagreeing, and then, on an open forum, where people already do not know their left from their right foot regarding these dogs come, there is discrediting an authentic registry devoted strictly to the Old Family Red Nose Strain (not a specific bloodline), which IS MORE THAN JUST A COLOR, as history can testify.
> 
> Here we have one (FH) discrediting the color of my dogs, based on his own PERSONAL opinion(which, by the way, is NOT authentic for anyone). There is not a black hair on an Old Family Red Nose dog, ever. The order of colors is rather simple, all based on RED. Light Red, Red, Silver Red, and Dark Red, any of which can have brindle and up to 25% white, excluding an all white head. Can't get any simpler than that.
> 
> Seal, smut, chocolate, brown, etc, are all amateur, generic, and peddler names of colors, which the ADBA gave into, because the ones in charge have no guts to stand against the majority, which is always wrong.


So let me cut down on the words and get to the point. u think FH is discrediting u and the OFRNR by explaining the genetic makeup of colors?

but u can say that the ADBA colors dont count? maybe im being too literal. but i dont see where the reason for the feather ruffling is comin from.

(and i am not trying to step on toes. i know u love ur OFRN. and it is more than a color.)


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## Saint Francis

Odin`s_BlueDragon said:


> So let me cut down on the words and get to the point. u think FH is discrediting u and the OFRNR by explaining the genetic makeup of colors?
> 
> but u can say that the ADBA colors dont count? maybe im being too literal. but i dont see where the reason for the feather ruffling is comin from.
> 
> (and i am not trying to step on toes. i know u love ur OFRN. and it is more than a color.)


I think there were a couple underlying jabs at the OFRNR, and/or IM. Is the OFRNR wrong on the subject of the very strain they are preserving? Personally, I put more stock into the OFRNR, and the leading OFRN authority(IM), than ADBA when anything comes up concerning the "red" dogs we are passionate about. The ADBA has taken the low road as Goemon has stated, and that's unfortunate. 
The "private club" and following comments could be taken the wrong way....maybe it's because some of us have a personal involvement in the situation. It's alright though. Colby fans are no less reactive when their dogs are discussed. It's always heated. Nothing wrong with that.

Everyone back to their corners LOL!


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## Goemon

Odin`s_BlueDragon said:


> but u can say that the ADBA colors dont count? maybe im being too literal. but i dont see where the reason for the feather ruffling is comin from.
> 
> (and i am not trying to step on toes. i know u love ur OFRN. and it is more than a color.)


My only concern is the OFRN. What I say about the ADBA is that it is not the same registry that it once was. Which is true.

Here is an old article to the Gazette from years ago. http://www.ironlinekennels.com/Page_70_Miscel/IMAG0007.JPG

Also, the OFRNR is the TOP authority of the OFRN strain. No other registry is devoted to this exclusive strain of ApBT. So newbies don't need to hear opinions that lead them away from the truth. The ADBA is not the place to go to learn about this strain.

What I am saying is the ADBA colors related to the OFRN dogs are wrong and out of step with tradition.


----------



## Goemon

Here is a link for those who would like a first person account of the dogs from Ironline kennels.

Click on Legend to return to Website. Email before registering. Click here x to return to :: View topic - Other Bloodlines bred by Ironline Kennels.


----------



## Goemon

Firehazard said:


> Lightner had the first SEAL dog........
> 
> *obviously you've missed something or decided that you'd take a GENETIC point of view as a personal attack *mixing it with my own personal opinion in which I was pretty sure there was a evident puncation to indicate seperation in thought.
> 
> Also....... *you guys in your group have gotta quit takin everything as a personal insult and throwing out insults that tend to get personal.*
> 
> Just had some of the blood in him... LOL look at that dogs pedigree he's all old family top to bottom. Goemon in your own words a post back you also call Dibo Old family.. better go edit it. Also I said (hair that APPEARS to be black but is actually red) Also in other OFRN genetic discussion the topic of the 'Black' nails on the red nosed dog with copper eyes was the dog truest to old red nosed dogs was bragged on by you fellas.
> 
> Also...... you arent only old timers out there who rubbed shoulders with heinzl, Jp, or Lightner... *I see you promote corvino corvino corvino yet you dis other dogs with as much corvino as many OFRN those inbred DIBO dogs.
> *
> *Matter a fact if the people arent worshiping the ground and words yall speak; out come insults and bashing.. think not ??* FOLLOW EVERY convo that ya'll have ever been banned because of. Ya'll get pissed off and throw bricks instead of good sense. Also many times ya'll are wrong or have double talked yourselves and unlike myself.... refuse to acknowledge the mistake made in dialogue, when yall make em.


No, you were discrediting the OFRNR and their standards, all based on historical facts, not the new age, give my doggy a bone mentality. My concern isn't with your opinion, but the fact newbies read this and it doesn;t help them. You, as a mod, should know newbies are already down the wrong road, so point them in the right direction, instead of confusing them even more.

Personal insult? If I were angry I'd be cussing...IM can speak for himself, and doesn't need me. But you can be sure whose side I take. But I'm the type that doesn't get mad often, and when I do I am past the point of talking.

Where do you ever seeing me throw out the Corvino dogs, other than they are my favorites? Nothing wrong with having a favorite line to follow. Too many out there to get them all. Why not choose what you think are the best. Your grandpa seemed to have a good choice.  But nothing is wrong with Dibo dogs.

Worship the ground? LOL, I, for one, could care less what people think of me. Fewer people I know, the better. 
Group? You will have to be more specific.

And I rarely, if ever, throw bricks. I took nothing personal..on the contrary, I was trying to help newbies learn the truth before it is lost.

If you have personal matters with IM, take it to him, not on a forum.

And I don't have to look....I have never said black nails are acceptable or bragged about them.

OFRN cannot produce black nails...........red + red = red. No black comes from two OFRN bred together.


----------



## Goemon

Saint Francis said:


> I think there were a couple underlying jabs at the OFRNR, and/or IM. Is the OFRNR wrong on the subject of the very strain they are preserving? Personally, I put more stock into the OFRNR, and the leading OFRN authority(IM), than ADBA when anything comes up concerning the "red" dogs we are passionate about. *The ADBA has taken the low road *as Goemon has stated, and that's unfortunate.
> The "private club" and following comments could be taken the wrong way....maybe it's because some of us have a personal involvement in the situation. It's alright though. Colby fans are no less reactive when their dogs are discussed. It's always heated. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Everyone back to their corners LOL!


I know we are not the only ones who see that things are messed up in what was once a good registry for the traditional ApBT. 
No dishonesty to say the green has blinded eyes.

As was shown in another post for the upcoming show, ANYONE with an OFRN dog, with at least 25% of the known old bloodlines in the dog, can register their dog for* free*. Money making is not the object, but the *preservation *of the OFRN strain is. I, personally, view it as a reformed registry, correcting the errors of the others, in regards to standard and traditional terminology.

Bottom line is this isn't about *US*, but our dogs, and the OFRN strain as a whole. If people aren't in the correct boat, they will end up on a deserted island in the end.

Thus endeth the sermon, grasshopper! :thumbsup:

Oh oh, lightning is striking and the rain is pouring....lights are flickering! lol :rain:


----------



## Goemon

And FH, here is where I explained Dibo: http://www.gopitbull.com/working-dogs/112666-bass-tramp-redboy-he-ofrn-tramp-6.html

Since non-VIP cannot see, I will copy and paste what I typed:
*FH, about Dibo... He was NOT an Old Family Red. In fact, he was not an OFRN, although he would have been considered heavy in it. 
(Bruce's Jerry was the sire of Corvino's Shorty and Gimp, and HE was an original OFR)

Dibo didn't even have a red nose.

And there was never, in the [] days, any of the non-sense "color" breeding. That is show crap, which has ruined every breed of dog of their purpose. 
If you want to mention Colby, he CULLED at birth any red nose pups born. (Which shows HIS dogs had some in it)
I asked Lou, before he died, if his father ever dealt with OFRN dogs. Said his father never mentioned it once during his life.
They hated the red nose dogs, as a matter of fact.

As I have heard said, "The only color that matters is winning!"

And if OFRN means No-DIBO, that means I do not have OFRN dogs, because my dogs' grandfather, Gaines' CH Red Dog(4xW), has Dibo blood, from the Carver dogs, through Hyde's Satch.

Bottom line, OFRN dogs are the preservation of the old Irish blood of the OFR's and Lightner dogs. 
A red to a red will always come out red. It was the cross of the battle tested OFR's, legendary for their gameness, to black nosed dogs that the OFRN strain came about. 
The strain is separate for the color...but it was never bred for color. They were valued for the gameness they had.

Robert Hemphill said the OFRN dogs were, "The gamest ever bred."*

And in a link above is found an original Robert Hemphill ad.


----------



## surfer

wow g-man, i'm still on your side, but,
dont take this the wrong way,

the bfkc, is the ONLY registry that registers 'game' dogs.

carl was born in 1942, but in 1941 his dads bulldog was on the cover of the police gazette, for winning.

now if you and iron mike can come up with that many years between you,

i might would take heed,

but now, every single 'real' dogmen think ironline is a joke,

dont believe ask around, you'll hear the truth.

and as far as their dogs, percentage wise, they aint that good,

i've witnessed, over a 1,000 events,

and NOT ONE was a pure OFRN,

and i live in nc, just above sc, so you figure there would have been ONE??????????????

ITS NOT THE DOGS, ITS THE OWNERS,

their 'dickheads' and thats a shame,

i'm not just down on that line, my favorite is redboy,

who many believe was OFRN, me included,

the owner of the BFKC, was standing next to howard when bass got the dog,

so no matter what iron mike says, it aint true,

look at 'gamblers' blood, if you know about the redboy, you would know those are the dogsd that carl [the owner of BFKC] used in his breedings,

he and katie were tight,

they were all there when termite took #4

at that time, it was THE MOST hyped event in the dog world, 
at that time........


----------



## Raiderblue

Very entertaining reads. Not really sure who to believe but you guys sure do know a lot about these dogs. (*popcorn*)


----------



## Alapaha_Bully

Looks chocolate IMO


----------



## Goemon

surfer said:


> wow g-man, i'm still on your side, but,
> dont take this the wrong way,
> 
> the bfkc, is the ONLY registry that registers 'game' dogs.
> 
> carl was born in 1942, but in 1941 his dads bulldog was on the cover of the police gazette, for winning.
> 
> now if you and iron mike can come up with that many years between you,
> 
> i might would take heed,
> 
> but now, every single 'real' dogmen think ironline is a joke,
> 
> dont believe ask around, you'll hear the truth.
> 
> and as far as their dogs, percentage wise, they aint that good,
> 
> i've witnessed, over a 1,000 events,
> 
> and NOT ONE was a pure OFRN,
> 
> and i live in nc, just above sc, so you figure there would have been ONE??????????????
> 
> ITS NOT THE DOGS, ITS THE OWNERS,
> 
> their 'dickheads' and thats a shame,
> 
> i'm not just down on that line, my favorite is redboy,
> 
> who many believe was OFRN, me included,
> 
> the owner of the BFKC, was standing next to howard when bass got the dog,
> 
> so no matter what iron mike says, it aint true,
> 
> look at 'gamblers' blood, if you know about the redboy, you would know those are the dogsd that carl [the owner of BFKC] used in his breedings,
> 
> he and katie were tight,
> 
> they were all there when termite took #4
> 
> at that time, it was THE MOST hyped event in the dog world,
> at that time........


I don't care to talk, or try to "prove" anything on a forum. As Raiderblue said, hard to know who to believe, particularly on a forum. We have all heard the saying "Proof is in the performance." I stick with my signature quote on this. Everyone believes what they want to these days, even more than back then.

But anyone familiar with the dogs knows that the Red Devil dogs were the only ones that could "go" against the Eli dogs, who were powerful barnstormers, consistently. Few others could get past the first 30 minutes. And FB and IM are close friends, so if what you said were true, FB is not a "real" dogman. That is just an example to prove the point. Which is, opinions vary, depending on the circle one is in. And you are aware of the R.O.M. dog that had the fewest breedings in history, correct? Who was it? Norrod's CH Iron Spike. Highest percentage of Champions, bred to fewest females. Six.

Now, I have never heard of a "pure" OFRN, but as you probably know, ALL modern [] dogs have OFRN blood in them, in one way or another, from one time or another. OFRN are pure, IMO, in that they are ApBT's. That's it. And NC and SC are only the East Coast. The USA is a large land.

Now, as for the BFKC, I was thinking of a completely different registry. Never dealt with it. But I disagree that it is the ONLY registry that registers game-dogs. They just advertise it. Big difference. I have nothing negative to say about Carl, though, as I do not personally know him. I stick to a small circle, and that is all.

My interest on this thread isn't about proving the past, or that one blood is better than another. Rather, I was simply trying to Keep It Simple. For the sake of newbies. When have you ever heard of "chocolate" as a color of [] dogs?

As for Redboy, I too consider him OFRN. CH Gambler was 1/2 Red Boy 1/2 Red Devil. 4XW If my memory is correct, each was under 45 minutes. He was a true finisher. There are two "strains" of Redboy dogs, IMO. The "watered" down, and the Originals (kept through selective breeding)

But, IMO, the dog game is dead today. The Old Timers are fewer and fewer in number. I have only known several *real* dogmen in my times, but I am sure you know I learned the real deal, as was told to me. I'm not as old as people think, which must be a reflection that I have good sources, and am not a google dogman, lol. But history is just that, HISTORY. Dead dogs can't help us today with all the problems we are having with peddling the oversized mutts, mass breeding dogs that would be culled quick in true hands, and the BYB problem, and the scapegoats that keep it going, the rescue crowd. Get rid of rescues and hold people accountable for the mutts they breed. Ban back yard breeding of unregistered dogs. Fix them or they die.

Termite? I have heard from a few that since he was a stifle dog he lacked the characteristics of a game dog. Head to head, toe to toe, and always being where the action is. But, his record cannot be disputed. I also heard he was heavy in OFRN blood.

But surfer, you know the golden proverb, from Joe Corvino himself? 
*The only time a dogman tells the truth is when he calls the other dogman a liar! *  So unless you have SEEN in action the dogs you seem to question, best to say nothing. The first step in stopping a rumor is to not repeat it. I have seen too much to believe what others say. It is one thing to trust the word of one we trust, another thing to trust what that source "heard."

IMHO, the past is gone and will not come back. Disputing over it will benefit nobody. While I may have seemed like a "dickhead" to FH, I was only attacking his "dog knowledge," not his "person." People can believe what they want. Doesn't mean I hate just because don't like a persons individual opinion on a subject matter.

But regarding IM, he has always kept his word (which fewer and fewer do today)and showed me pictures that can counter any cyber rumor and opinion. When I talk to him he never cuts another down, nor discredits others, UNLESS somebody attacks him. How many of you would not be pissed off if people were discrediting your names over the web? If people want to know about him, best way to find out is to give him a call...his number is open for anyone. I'm pretty sure the guns would be blazing if rumors and lies were spread about any of you.. Food for thought.

*"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people."
Hyman G. Rickover
U.S. Navy Admiral*


----------



## Firehazard

Personal issues ?? Come ON! :rofl: again. Re read the post and don't take me out of context. Its very clear who has personal issues. Look at the personal attacks in every thread where (a group of you OFRNR folks) sing the same song get just as ungly and shotty when people don't drink your drink. I normally and very humble about it chop it up to how ya'll roll. Yes there is a group of you who all sing the same song and get band for taking things outta hand. Seen it time an again. Not taking anything from you, IM or your dogs. Just tellin you flat out how you like to tell folks. Ignore most of the props given if we don't agree with every word. Yes... it is a pattern. Thanks Surfer for clearing him up on the BFKC and as far as the ADBA, they do have some color schemes I dont agree with and have made that clear on other convos about color and the adba.

The only thing that seperates IS color thus the RED NOSE that states COLOR and Yes, Im very up to date on Colby and his red nosed dogs that quit being produced by the mid 30s or so along with the black and tan coloration. BECAUSE they are LINKED its GENETIC coloring the color of the skin and the color of the hair. TO say or believe otherwise is just :hammer: dumbing yourself down.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [376] :: TUDOR'S JEFF

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [715] :: *NORROD'S IRON SPIKE**

Yes DIBO is was an Old Family dog .. red with a black nose. Thats a red. Not RED nosed but red none the less. .... Theres IS alot of SIMILARITY in the history of these two dogs.

in the 7 there is ALOT Of COLBY ... oke: So those inbred offspring of Dibo and jeff that had red noses aren't OFRN ??? Cause they are SURE Ol Family. They come in Black, Brindle, White, and solid red... all with the same pedigrees. Its not until someone took ONE dog and stacked on its color mutations and kept with it that colors genetic herritage traits (within itself)

So .. beggin the question .. is it based on color or not? ROFL (rhetorical)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [35828] :: TUDOR'S WHITE ROCK

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [9] :: TUDOR'S DIBO (3XW)

here is your smut .. buckskin red on buckskin yellow off one of my favorite dogs.. that I've only read and heard about of course.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=224289

I didnt say black nails.. I said appear black...... you can't have black hair or black nails if the nose is red. GENETICALLY you can have the darkest form of red which the nails will appear black unless in the light.

I agree with your point the only thing we're arguing over really is "Silver Red" being a foo foo name. MAN COME ON! :hammer: THE APBT IS AMERICAS first FOO FOO PET. you know that. I wasn't making a person poke when I said that, it was just generalization. Just for clarity. My perspestive with DNA and genetics is mathimatical. It was more philosphical like most dog men then while a bio major I hit a AHA moment studying DNA and mitachondria. I LOVE MATH when it has to do WITH DNA and CODING    there is always variables some un accounted for, but there are always constants and a base. Its really intriguing to me to reserect dead dogs the natural way through great breeding and function. While we can say dogs dog always breed true... THEY DO.. we just need to pull in the math of it.  TODAY we KNOW a good deal bout genetics and our hands in mutation and preservation of.*


----------



## Alapaha_Bully

Goemon said:


> That is dark red. Chocolate is a novice term. No ApBT's in history were called chocolate.
> 
> Just shows the newbies that call them chocolate are just that...newbies.
> 
> For verification go to the Old Family *Red* Nose Registry:
> 
> http://ofrnr.com/Forms_OFRNR.html


Sure, you could say "dark red" but in today's terms that pup would most likely be called chocolate...


----------



## Goemon

Alapaha_Bully said:


> Wtf? I've only been dealing with dogs for 20 years, so maybe
> I'm a neophyte lmao...what color would you say? It's kinda hard to tell from a picture that I'm looking at on my cell phone though.


Did you not read the other posts? Were you speaking of the dog I showed?

She is dark red brindle, not chocolate. Chocolate is not an OFRN color. Red is red, in any variation of it. I even posted a pic in the sun. Clearly it is red.

20 years? lets see, you started in the 90's, AFTER the terrible 80's that saw the breed start its downhill slide, to where we are today...

Go to the root of your learning about these dogs, and find where, when and who started adding all these colors.


----------



## Goemon

Alapaha_Bully said:


> Sure, you could say "dark red" but in today's terms that pup would most likely be called chocolate...


Chocolate will never be an accepted color in this registry, which stays with the roots and traditional standards.

If people follow the new road, the breed will be extinct in the next 50 years.


----------



## Alapaha_Bully

Goemon said:


> Did you not read the other posts? Were you speaking of the dog I showed?
> 
> She is dark red brindle, not chocolate. Chocolate is not an OFRN color. Red is red, in any variation of it. I even posted a pic in the sun. Clearly it is red.
> 
> 20 years? lets see, you started in the 90's, AFTER the terrible 80's that saw the breed start its downhill slide, to where we are today...
> 
> Go to the root of your learning about these dogs, and find where, when and who started adding all these colors.


I was referring to the dog that was in OP's initial photos. And dude, I said I've been dealing DOGS for 20 years, not necessarily just pits....I'm no dog lady, not here to debate my education with yours...i owned a few pits in my day, done lots of research, and just have a genuine love for the breed. So kick rocks!


----------



## Goemon

Alapaha_Bully said:


> I was referring to the dog that was in OP's initial photos. And dude, I said I've been dealing DOGS for 20 years, not necessarily just pits....I'm no dog lady, not here to debate my education with yours...i owned a few pits in my day, done lots of research, and just have a genuine love for the breed. So kick rocks!


Ok. I knew you must not have been into ApBT's for 20 years since "pits" was a name coined by the ghetto thugs that ruined the breed.

Hence, why I said "neophyte." Ticks me off that flakes that don't know how to change diapers give a generic name to a breed and society uses it as if it were okay.... oke:


----------



## Alapaha_Bully

Goemon said:


> Ok. I knew you must not have been into ApBT's for 20 years since "pits" was a name coined by the ghetto thugs that ruined the breed.
> 
> Hence, why I said "neophyte." Ticks me off that flakes that don't know how to change diapers give a generic name to a breed and society uses it as if it were okay.... oke:


Smh...you obviously have NO life... it's just a shorter, quicker to type name for me...besides I'm more into behavior, training, and psychological aspect of the APBT, the petty arguments that you're involved in about color, name terms, registry doesn't really intrigue me.


----------



## Goemon

Alapaha_Bully said:


> Smh...you obviously have NO life... it's just a shorter, quicker to type name for me...besides I'm more into behavior, training, and psychological aspect of the APBT, the petty arguments that you're involved in about color, name terms, registry doesn't really intrigue me.


Ok kid. Whatever you say.....I have quite the life. Dogs are a only a small portion.

You have no interest in these things because you have a selfish, personal interest in the dogs.....and don;t care about the breed as a whole.

People like you who "don't care" are the major reason we have the problems we have today.

Grow up please. If you don't care for the subject, stay out of it. :stick:


----------



## Raiderblue

Goemon said:


> But anyone familiar with the dogs knows that the Red Devil dogs were the only ones that could "go" against the Eli dogs, who were powerful barnstormers, consistently. Few others could get past the first 30 minutes. And FB and IM are close friends, so if what you said were true, FB is not a "real" dogman. That is just an example to prove the point. Which is, opinions vary, depending on the circle one is in. And you are aware of the R.O.M. dog that had the fewest breedings in history, correct? Who was it? Norrod's CH Iron Spike. Highest percentage of Champions, bred to fewest females. Six.


A little off topic, but are you saying boudreaux had the best [] dogs back in the day? I know this is probably a very opinionated topic. But, I've always wondered who had the best fighters. I've watched documentaries and researched some but I wish someone could provide me a credible link summing it all up. I hate dog fighting these days but I respect all the real dogmen in history. The ones who didn't use. " bait dogs". The ones who actually took better care of their real game dogs than even the animal worshipers with humanized pets of today, the ones who stopped a match when one dog was clearly defeated but not dead. I find the history of these dogs incredibly interesting, just wish I could find a raw source to educate myself better.


----------



## Raiderblue

Goemon said:


> Get rid of rescues and hold people accountable for the mutts they breed. Ban back yard breeding of unregistered dogs. Fix them or they die.


Yes! This^. Look, I love my mutt. But this world would be a better place for dogs if this were to happen. Too many over run shelters, dogs running the streets emaciated and hopeless. This goes for all breeds too.


----------



## Goemon

Firehazard said:


> Personal issues ?? Come ON! :rofl: again. Re read the post and don't take me out of context. Its very clear who has personal issues. Look at the personal attacks in every thread where (a group of you OFRNR folks) sing the same song get just as ungly and shotty when people don't drink your drink. I normally and very humble about it chop it up to how ya'll roll. Yes there is a group of you who all sing the same song and get band for taking things outta hand. Seen it time an again. Not taking anything from you, IM or your dogs. Just tellin you flat out how you like to tell folks. Ignore most of the props given if we don't agree with every word. Yes... it is a pattern. Thanks Surfer for clearing him up on the BFKC and as far as the ADBA, they do have some color schemes I dont agree with and have made that clear on other convos about color and the adba.
> 
> I didnt say black nails.. I said appear black...... you can't have black hair or black nails if the nose is red. GENETICALLY you can have the darkest form of red which the nails will appear black unless in the light.
> 
> I agree with your point the only thing we're arguing over really is "Silver Red" being a foo foo name. MAN COME ON! :hammer: THE APBT IS AMERICAS first FOO FOO PET. you know that. I wasn't making a person poke when I said that, it was just generalization. Just for clarity.


We have debated on this and as I said, I am not digging into the past for fruitless debate. This aspect I did agree to disagree upon. What's matters today are the dogs of today.

I misread? I took it as you discrediting the OFRNR, which will make some newbies think it is not legit. You said it yourself, you know the ADBA is not what it once was and that they have hurt the breed in recent years in registering the oversized mutts as ApBT's. Was I mistaken?

This registry will not change according to what the masses think. It is in sticking with tradition and holding the dogs to traditional standards. This is, IMO, a case of the Old School against the New School. Why invent a new language when the majority don't even know the original?


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon

debate, discuss and continue on.... but i've said it once and i have had to go back and clean up stuf, but leave the personal attacks out of ur replies!!! u can have an intelligent debate without the insults.


----------



## Goemon

Raiderblue said:


> A little off topic, but are you saying boudreaux had the best [] dogs back in the day? I know this is probably a very opinionated topic. But, I've always wondered who had the best fighters. I've watched documentaries and researched some but I wish someone could provide me a credible link summing it all up. I hate dog fighting these days but I respect all the real dogmen in history. The ones who didn't use. " bait dogs". The ones who actually took better care of their real game dogs than even the animal worshipers with humanized pets of today, the ones who stopped a match when one dog was clearly defeated but not dead. I find the history of these dogs incredibly interesting, just wish I could find a raw source to educate myself better.


IMO nobody can say they had the "best." But both of those bloodlines were "as good as the best."
But that is the word I have heard from old timers. Not found in books. 
Most documentaries are garbage too. Best books were before the 80's. Old magazines too. Hard to find some, and expensive, not worth the price, unless you have a lot of cash. 
And yeah, "fights to the death" were never the purpose. Not all game dogs were winners, but they had the gameness needed. Still good for breeding.
Can't do anything with a dead dog.

I agree, the wanna bes of today are scum, abusers and trash.


----------



## DickyT

Raiderblue said:


> you probably go around saying that dog in your avatar is an apbt too.


The dog in mine is a 'catahoula mix' according to broward county and my vet!

Not sure how I pulled that off, the shelter has everything else that has a similar look labeled as 'amstaff', including the other 2 of Camo's litter mates that were turned into them. But I get to avoid registering with my city because I don't own what they consider a 'dangerous breed' since the county called him a catahoula :woof:


----------



## Raiderblue

DickyT said:


> The dog in mine is a 'catahoula mix' according to broward county and my vet!
> 
> Not sure how I pulled that off, the shelter has everything else that has a similar look labeled as 'amstaff', including the other 2 of Camo's litter mates that were turned into them. But I get to avoid registering with my city because I don't own what they consider a 'dangerous breed' since the county called him a catahoula :woof:


Hey I watched an episode of Cops the other night featuring broward county lol. They got some crazies in that town dicky


----------



## DickyT

Raiderblue said:


> Hey I watched an episode of Cops the other night featuring broward county lol. They got some crazies in that town dicky


In certain areas for sure! Funny thing about this county is adjacent to 'the hood' there are multimillion dollar homes, only seperated by a 4 lane road....

Then there is my area which is a quiet middle class neighborhood with A rated schools, where 3 blocks east of me on the other side of a 4 lane road is an area I won't go to in daylight...

All of south Florida is that way. Rich neighborhood >> the hood >> middle class >> the hood >> rinse and repeat.


----------



## Firehazard

See "Goeman".. despite the lil disagreements I can respect where you come from. Agree with a good point itd be stupid to argue with the truth. .. 

Let me clear it up... In all of any OFRN post I have not directed slander or miscontent to nor do I feel that they are a discredit to the APBT. Quite the opposite.. Preservationists... Specialist. In a league of their own. IMO a private club that you have to be honored into. I have not had the day or time to kill to give IM a call, I know hes busy but one day ... I did put some work to find out what stock he had before I invested in Hammonds. I really wanted that Danger solid hemphill stuff.. Not interested in any others. Because ..too... Im preservationist. 

That doesnt mean I agree with every detail of every piece of work. When talking color... I insult as many as I do when I tell people their dog is off the couch. Even with me loving the hell outta their dog and the dog enjoy the puppy treatment ...owners still get pissed. What do you mean off the couch, start given excuses for having a fat dog and insulting my skinny dogs. :hammer: So I do apologize for that, I just come accross that way, even when Im humble happy and not thinking anything of the sort. ... 

Like everyone .. everyone makes some mistakes ... I believe itd be much more humble to mention some of the breedings that let you down or dogs that let you down. See when you have a small select few who can tell you the truth on the dogs ONLY the truth matters. Not his truth their truth or your truth.. THE TRUTH. On this you and I agree and in the manner of the degredation of the breed as well and how and why it came about. YOU Have PASSION! thats a good thing and I can't but give you more kudos for it. 



Your right ... I may have cause some confusion or misdirection. Hell in my mind it was KISS the whole way. I re read it from a different point of view.. quite pretentious. NOT the way I was thinking. 

STILL... IMO that was simple ... but I can see how I sounded simple as well.


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## Saint Francis

...and to think that this whole discussion started over "color" LOL. These dogs are our pride an joy, whether OFRN or other....so some toes are bound to stepped on. "Us" OFRNers probably get our backs up quicker due to the misinformation circulating in today's generation....not to mention the out right haters of the strain and those preserving it, for whatever reason. With that in mind, and the fact that it is easier to push a key on a keyboard than to push a man in person, it is easy to see why topics get personal. It's comical though at times when two sides, who obviously care deeply for this breed, lock horns in debate......but that is the passion pouring out......and that passion is what gives me hope that the APBT will survive. WE ALL GIVE A DAMN...a very good sign!
Now, let's all just admit that the OFRN is the best.....and there will finally be peace in the kingdom LOL!!!!!!!!


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Saint Francis said:


> ...and to think that this whole discussion started over "color" LOL. These dogs are our pride an joy, whether OFRN or other....so some toes are bound to stepped on. "Us" OFRNers probably get our backs up quicker due to the misinformation circulating in today's generation....not to mention the out right haters of the strain and those preserving it, for whatever reason. With that in mind, and the fact that it is easier to push a key on a keyboard than to push a man in person, it is easy to see why topics get personal. It's comical though at times when two sides, who obviously care deeply for this breed, lock horns in debate......but that is the passion pouring out......and that passion is what gives me hope that the APBT will survive. WE ALL GIVE A DAMN...a very good sign!
> Now, let's all just admit that the OFRN is the best.....and there will finally be peace in the kingdom LOL!!!!!!!!


LMAO Saint!!! bulldog people tend to be just like their bulldogs. stubborn and relentless  and yes, fur flies when the passion comes out.


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## surfer

g-man, if you think fb is a real dogman, then you just showed me how far you have to go,

i remember when he was just gettin started, and he did have some good ones, but,

he curred out worse than any hound could have, when you turn into a snitch,

then your credability as a dogman goes out the window,

and yes i have seen with my own eyes, some things.
and as far as termite, perry [we] whipped everyone that came a knockin.

in a 4yr stretch 29w's 3l's,

and termite whipped,, spruill, tant, chavis, and crenshaw,

if you dont reconize those names, then you were out of the 'loop',

and those men showed up with 'bulldogs'.

to think termite wouldnt go in the mouth, then you couldnt have been at #4

because fletcher thought he had 'the one'

before termite crippled him, it was mouth to mouth, until 'joe' said no more.


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## Alapaha_Bully

Goemon said:


> Ok kid. Whatever you say.....I have quite the life. Dogs are a only a small portion.
> 
> You have no interest in these things because you have a selfish, personal interest in the dogs.....and don;t care about the breed as a whole.
> 
> People like you who "don't care" are the major reason we have the problems we have today.
> 
> Grow up please. If you don't care for the subject, stay out of it. :stick:


I care tremendously for this breed! I care enough to know that arguing over the opinion of the color of an APBT does NOTHING to help this breed! And if you think that IM a major reason that we have the problems that this breed faces today than you OBVIOUSLY don't have a clue!!!!


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## Firehazard

work is preservation... the lack of work has crippled every so called working breed in every prestigious mainstream registry. 

you wanna real rat terrier?? its gotta be fast strong small and kill rats. NOT THE SHADOW OF THE DOG. then otherwise you have a replica not a rat terrier. 

hounds, sled dogs, bulldog, catchdogs, wilderness survival experts like the Laikas.etc etc .. If they don't work ... then they just won't work. <<<--- (pun){{{


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## Firehazard

Saint Francis said:


> ...and to think that this whole discussion started over "color" LOL. These dogs are our pride an joy, whether OFRN or other....so some toes are bound to stepped on. "Us" OFRNers probably get our backs up quicker due to the misinformation circulating in today's generation....not to mention the out right haters of the strain and those preserving it, for whatever reason. With that in mind, and the fact that it is easier to push a key on a keyboard than to push a man in person, it is easy to see why topics get personal. It's comical though at times when two sides, who obviously care deeply for this breed, lock horns in debate......but that is the passion pouring out......and that passion is what gives me hope that the APBT will survive. WE ALL GIVE A DAMN...a very good sign!
> Now, let's all just admit that the OFRN is the best.....and there will finally be peace in the kingdom LOL!!!!!!!!


Surfer.. as always: Truth... nuttin but the proven truth. :thumbsup:

Alot of truth here... 
:cheers: as long as too: those can admit that without COLBY (JPs leftovers) THERE WOULD BE NO OFRN .. AS WE.. KNOW it Today!!!
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [715] :: *NORROD'S IRON SPIKE*


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## Goemon

surfer said:


> g-man, if you think fb is a real dogman, then you just showed me how far you have to go,
> 
> i remember when he was just gettin started, and he did have some good ones, but,
> 
> he curred out worse than any hound could have, when you turn into a snitch,
> 
> then your credability as a dogman goes out the window,
> 
> and yes i have seen with my own eyes, some things.
> and as far as termite, perry [we] whipped everyone that came a knockin.
> 
> in a 4yr stretch 29w's 3l's,
> 
> and termite whipped,, spruill, tant, chavis, and crenshaw,
> 
> if you dont reconize those names, then you were out of the 'loop',
> 
> and those men showed up with 'bulldogs'.
> 
> to think termite wouldnt go in the mouth, then you couldnt have been at #4
> 
> because fletcher thought he had 'the one'
> 
> before termite crippled him, it was mouth to mouth, until 'joe' said no more.


Never once have I heard that....about Floyd. Ever. Although he was ratted out.

What I never mentioned is what I heard about Carl.

I heard he was the one who got Vick started into the dogs, and he then gave info in the trial.
If it is true, anyone that would give dogs to a lowlife like Vick and his crew committed just as bad an offense as ratting, IMO. Hard to say which is worse. 
Where I am from, you take the fall, even for an enemy...

But I agree, not just in dogs, but all of life...break your word, you can never get it back.

True or false? IDK, and don't really care.

You know since the RICO law came out that the snitches grew in number, especially after John Gotti was ratted out by Sammy Gravano.

Snitches and bounties are what ruined the dog game, and any other criminal organization. (Although I do not consider professional matching criminal--although it is by law.)

Heard many stories about Crenshaw, and that he was a great guy. Can't say I have heard the same for the others. Never heard of Spruill.

What I didn't mention was that Termite was also disliked for being a manbiter. I never saw the dog in person, so cannot say. 
I did have a former dog with Termite in him. Other half Kingfish. 
He was borderline.....doom on any stranger that approached him, unless I was there.
He did bite at a friend once to try and get at another dog.

Never discredit a mans dogs unless you are ready to put your money down. As it is said, "Money walks, BS talks." 
If everyone followed that rule, there would be much less debating.


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## Goemon

Firehazard said:


> here is your smut .. buckskin red on buckskin yellow off one of my favorite dogs.. that I've only read and heard about of course.
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [224289] :: AMMONS' HEMPHILL RED ARROW


No, Arrow was not smut. He was a 2XW and open.


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## Goemon

Firehazard said:


> See "Goeman".. despite the lil disagreements I can respect where you come from. Agree with a good point itd be stupid to argue with the truth. ..
> 
> Like everyone .. everyone makes some mistakes ... I believe itd be much more humble to mention some of the breedings that let you down or dogs that let you down. See when you have a small select few who can tell you the truth on the dogs ONLY the truth matters. Not his truth their truth or your truth.. THE TRUTH. On this you and I agree and in the manner of the degredation of the breed as well and how and why it came about. YOU Have PASSION! thats a good thing and I can't but give you more kudos for it.
> 
> Your right ... I may have cause some confusion or misdirection. Hell in my mind it was KISS the whole way. I re read it from a different point of view.. quite pretentious. NOT the way I was thinking.
> 
> STILL... IMO that was simple ... but I can see how I sounded simple as well.


*The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who does nothing. 
* Theodore Roosevelt.

When I have what I can call "my own family of dogs" I will let you know. I have not bred a whole lot, and never sold anything.

However, I can give you my own personal opinions, based on trial and error.

Any pup BORN with physical deformities should be culled immediately. No questions. 
I'm not talking conformation, but clearly visible deformities.

Next, and most important, IMO, is to cull out any pup that is fearful or very shy and that doesn't like getting close to people. 
A puppy is the seed of what it will be when full grown. 
A sound temperament along with confidence is the first priority to look for in a pup. 
Mistake: I kept a couple puppies once, that were fearful and shy, and regretted it. Poor behaved or unstable minded dogs have no place in this breed.
While you want your dog to bond with you, if it is fearful of others, it is worthless and potential trouble. 
I always tell people, never pick the shy one of the litter, the loner. Don;t get a pup just because you pity it.

When you have a stable minded pup, then you have something to work with, and pick and choose the best of them to breed.
To know you have the best, you need to keep the whole litter. First borns, second born, etc, means nothing IMO. 
Breeders who sell by birth order don;t know what they are doing, IMO.

That is as far as I can suggest now. You have to get rid of "puppy love" and never get attached. 
If people can't do that, they have no business breeding, IMO.


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## Goemon

Firehazard said:


> Surfer.. as always: Truth... nuttin but the proven truth. :thumbsup:
> 
> Alot of truth here...
> :cheers: as long as too: those can admit that without COLBY (JPs leftovers) THERE WOULD BE NO OFRN .. AS WE.. KNOW it Today!!!
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [715] :: *NORROD'S IRON SPIKE*


*

LOL, OFRN was around before Colby, it just didn't have a name yet.

They were in the states before the civil war. But we have already debated this, lol.

Doesn't matter to me...the only dogs that matter are the grandparents and great-grandparents. For that is what a pup turns out like.*


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## Goemon

Alapaha_Bully said:


> I care tremendously for this breed! I care enough to know that arguing over the opinion of the color of an APBT does NOTHING to help this breed! And if you think that IM a major reason that we have the problems that this breed faces today than you OBVIOUSLY don't have a clue!!!!


I'm just judging by what you already said, that color and registry standards don;t matter to you.

Those that discredit history are who have created the problems, and those changes come due to registries....when the show nuts, all for looks people take over.


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## DickyT

Goemon said:


> First borns, second born, etc, means nothing IMO.
> Breeders who sell by birth order don;t know what they are doing, IMO.


I'll agree your 'IMO' is dead on there G. The order in which a pup is whelped has nothing to do with the quality dog it will become.

In my dogs before bulldogs I only dealt with well established and reputable breeders. I had not even heard the birth order thing until I read this, but I'm sure there are byb's for any breed out there that have this kind of recokulous thought process.


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## Goemon

DickyT said:


> I'll agree your 'IMO' is dead on there G. The order in which a pup is whelped has nothing to do with the quality dog it will become.
> 
> In my dogs before bulldogs I only dealt with well established and reputable breeders. I had not even heard the birth order thing until I read this, but I'm sure there are byb's for any breed out there that have this kind of recokulous thought process.


I kid you not, some will take deposits for birth order.

Only peddlers do that. $4000 for first born, $3000 for second born..

Some even add $500 for the females to total price.

In my spare time I have been finding sites I know for a fact are peddlers and plan to expose them in the future.

If dedicated owners don't take a stand, who else will do it for us?

They should be exposed to legit registries and petitions signed to disqualify the pretend-a-pit breeders.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

I hate it when idiot "breeders" charge more for pups from the same litter. it makes no sense, wether they are male or female. black, white, green, or pink. if the dogs are all from the same litter than they are all equal.


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## surfer

hate to say it but, if you want a female from me, 
add another grand at least, and some cant be bought,

i know that i have the only dogs in the WORLD bred like mine,

it's taken since 1980, to get here, why on earth would i just give them away??????????

as far as carl, i was one of the ones that was going to va. when m. vick was still pre-teen, carls' son is highway patrol.

we [carl] knew 1 week beforehand, micheal was told when he got those dogs, NOT to 'touch' them. he dropped large, when it got backl to those in nc.

carl went witrh some help, no names implied, and took back 29 dogs,

i dont remember him, but apparently he grew up and stayed with these dogs.

but ended up being a loser, no one will really understand the quality of dogs he had,

some littermates went for 40k, and was offered 60k for some more, but turned it down

thats the real story, out for the first time....

as far as goin in to 'CAROLINA KENNELS' the door was always open, and the ones that talked bad, are the ones we didnt deal with,

envy, is not good. 
i was taught let them worry about us...................

these men were, USMC, no slouches when it came to integrity'

it took over 20yrs, before carl would let his blood come this way,
he said we were just to hard on them,

i can remember, goin from 235, to about 175 in a weekend,

but we did not mess around, they all dont turn out, but anyone out of 'the circle' did not see the bad ones.


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## Goemon

Good to know the dogs were taken back. When that case came out, all I wanted to do is line them thugs up and execute them. 
Dog abusers need to be branded on the hands with hot iron, and their backs whipped until they pass out. Then they get the medical bills....
Ever seen with a dog again, with the brand and the scars on back, they shall be executed. Abuse would end quickly. 
But the wimpy human rights idiots would protest and start crying a river.
Screw the jail, and having taxpayers feed them...

I know what you mean by dogs that can't be bought, for any price. 

I was referring to breeders who have no clue what they are doing, and selling mutts to the unknowing.
Private breeders can do as they like...they aren't causing the problems and filling the shelters and producing the next generation of doggie worshipers. 

I call this generation the rainbow generation....but I was told Howard Heinzl beat me to it, lol.


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## Goemon

Saint Francis said:


> *Now, let's all just admit that the OFRN is the best.....and there will finally be peace in the kingdom LOL!!!!!!!!*


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

You, my friend, are a no good, down low, dirty rotten SOB of a trouble maker!


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## Saint Francis

Goemon said:


> :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
> 
> You, my friend, are a no good, down low, dirty rotten SOB of a trouble maker!


...........and those are my good qualities!


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## Firehazard

:rofl: :cheers: :rofl: 

excellent points of clarity gentlemen and hilarious moments of truth. 

.. hahahaha.. I got love for all ya'll..


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## Alapaha_Bully

DickyT said:


> In certain areas for sure! Funny thing about this county is adjacent to 'the hood' there are multimillion dollar homes, only seperated by a 4 lane road....
> 
> Then there is my area which is a quiet middle class neighborhood with A rated schools, where 3 blocks east of me on the other side of a 4 lane road is an area I won't go to in daylight...
> 
> All of south Florida is that way. Rich neighborhood >> the hood >> middle class >> the hood >> rinse and repeat.


No trailer parks??


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## surfer

floyd who???????

jackie spruill, david tant, james crenshaw, and fletcher chavis[via boone].

those are the ones, they are all gone now.

as far as ofrn, goes, they were my first love,

and mine were show or go, got several adba conformation show winners. at that time i was under the wing of someone older than me,

who took me places and met people,

thats when i met p., r., & bd., and redboy blood couldnt be got anywhere, but we had it,

thru fletcher and joe medlin, and p. or r. were not letting it out, we kept everything,

so when you saw ck, you saw the best we had at that weight,

our little clique had about 6-8 maybe 10 that would 'school them out' together,

with a field like that, the numbers just took over,

we would be able to pick the best out of 150, versus someone coming with the best of 15, the numbers just aint there.


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## DickyT

Alapaha_Bully said:


> No trailer parks??


A few of them too...


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## Firehazard

Goemon said:


> No, Arrow was not smut. He was a 2XW and open.


thats smut... if it aint.. then my red dog with the same markings on face aren't smut either .. its a mutation of it oke: red on red or its just a shadow that doesnt go away. Like I said in many posts before OFRN was my first love as well ^^^ and I don't believe I said anything about them lacking ability or game. Matter afact I said I liked danger and wanted stuff tight like that or none at all. Why?? Cause I can pull the same dogs out of Xs out of any good strain down from Dibo .. Becuase the DNA is all there. Its all math. As long as they're workers DNA doesn't lie. Same with Colby.. its the preservation factor. IF not a solid honest dog to its ped.. I can get any dog out of a good dibo sub strain or family. However light has shinned down on me, and I got me something to preserve  special thanks to those involved


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## Goemon

surfer said:


> floyd who???????


Boudreaux

I think now you thought I was referring to Fat Bill.


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## surfer

yes i was,

i've never heard a bad word about floyd.


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## Goemon

Firehazard said:


> thats smut... if it aint.. then my red dog with the same markings on face aren't smut either .. its a mutation of it oke: red on red or its just a shadow that doesnt go away. Like I said in many posts before OFRN was my first love as well ^^^ and I don't believe I said anything about them lacking ability or game. Matter afact I said I liked danger and wanted stuff tight like that or none at all. Why?? Cause I can pull the same dogs out of Xs out of any good strain down from Dibo .. Becuase the DNA is all there. Its all math. As long as they're workers DNA doesn't lie. Same with Colby.. its the preservation factor. IF not a solid honest dog to its ped.. I can get any dog out of a good dibo sub strain or family. However light has shinned down on me, and I got me something to preserve  special thanks to those involved


It's just an old pic.

There is one place to get those dogs, that have not been outcrossed.

Here is a link with some history: OLD FAMILY KENNELS |

As I hinted above, IMO, to look for dogs with "specific" dogs way back is about the same as paper hanging. 
The only dogs that matter are the grandparents and great-grandparents.
Personally, I don;t believe in outcrossing UNLESS there is something lacking. 
If it isn't broke, don;t fix it! 
When tight line breeding, you get the good with the bad. The bad is culled out.
True ApBT's are built up through selective breeding, not through mathematics. 
No bloodline is flawless, but with a good one, and careful culling, the % of quality dogs grows and bad dogs can be rare.

A lot of bloodlines were ruined by careless breeders. Lots of watered down dogs out there, because everyone thinks they can just mix and get the blood to click.

Oh, and DNA CAN lie! 
The only thing in a dog that can't lie is the heart! You can't see it, but you can hear it. 
Many mistake a dog as being game-bred because of the peds. 
Gameness was always the last thing seen in a dog. 
And even then, if not conditioned properly, it could still lose.

Another thing, many would go out and buy a dog of another blood, and then super test it.
They always tested other blood harder than their own.
Then, sometimes, they would second guess and test again. 
Each "test" took something out of a dog. So they often ruined dogs of other blood, afraid to admit it was better than their own. 
That is called foolish pride. 
My friend FM said guys who did that didn't deserve dogs, as they were only in it for the money. 
Carver used to say, "This dog is willing to give its all and die for me, so you can be damn sure I'm gonna be his friend."


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## Firehazard

Selective breeding ... is mathematics... just the the four corners is the scientific method of proving game... no.. DNA doesnt lie, people are just fooled by themselves, ignorance/negligent thinking or haphazardly stuck in a mind frame. 


other than that ... :cheers:


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