# BLOODLINES Fiction and NON Fiction



## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*OK, so I am new here and I have been fairly busy, but one thing I have noticed is the overuse of the term Bully. I have seen new members come on and state that they have a dog and the dog has Razors Edge, Gotti or Gaff in its pedigree.

Immediately people chime in saying that what they have is not a APBT, but an American Bully. Just based off that, no pedigree, no pictures, just someone says there dog is RE and BAM it's an AmBully.

Now I am not going to sit here and say that the majority of dogs you typically see online that have Gotti or Edge in their ped are not AmBullies a lot are. The AmBully community is a marketing machine and uses the internet as there major trading grounds. Its a huge part of the community, unlike some game lines which for obvious reasons do not use the internet as that type of tool. Show lines and kennels are often lost on the net to the AMBully websites as well.

There are strains of RE and Gotti, that are not AmBully at all, the purpose of RE at its inception was not to create the American Bully. Razors Edge started out as a kennel that showed in the UKC primarily, they did there share of winning when the UKC actually had more than 10 dogs at a show. The main gene pool was an AmStaff to APBT cross. AmStaff coming from Kimmar and Cloverhill dogs, two very respected line/kennels in VA. You can see where other kennels took the same line and went a totally different direction and produce very terrier type AmStaffs. RE and these AmStaffs have a lot of the same ancestry, see Genetics are FUN.

There were breeders who purchased RE stock in the early 90s and did not go the direction of the AmBully crowd. They wanted cleaner looking show dogs but their preference leaned towards APBTs that had good bone and substance and an impressive headpiece, more of the Bull than the Terrier yes, but not in extremes.

The APBT has always been noticed for its head piece, they have striking heads and the expressions of the breed are unmatched in the dog world in my opinion. Notice that I did not say SIZE of head, I can look back at Patrick dogs, (Some of my favorite by the way), all the way to Tudor stock and see impressive head pieces, some which were not small, some of the Bolio dogs had some DOMES. The point is the size of head played little as far as gameness and some old school APBT owners would say it was a detriment, others will tell you in the same room that some of their better dogs had above average sized heads. (That's not hearsay by the way, that's me sitting in a room that a jokingly call Racist Row, because the 60 year old plus dog men that I spoke to, use to not sell to blacks or Mexicans lol)

Now on a thread here TITLED HELP, a new member came on and asked about his bloodline. The dog was from Untouchable Blue Diamond kennels and the member wanted to know his dogs bloodline. He said RE and BAM he now has a shiny new American Bully that just happens to be registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier because the UKC or ADBA does not know any better. Suddenly his purebred dog is the product of breed mixing.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOAAAA! Lets pump our brakes real quick, breed mixing is a serious accusation, and although I do not deny that certain unethical individuals did so and passed them off as APBTs, this is not true of the entire line and every breeder that has RE stock. Some did it the right way, and bred for the exaggerated traits they liked, a lot of these dogs are not extremes.

Blue Diamond for example, he has in my opinion, over a period of time produced a consistent look for a Blue Diamond dog. This is what a breeding program is about people, CONSISTENCY.

Whether we are talking game, or show, breeders who are worth their salt have consistency in their line, almost to the point where you can see a dog and almost guess the line. Colby has it, Jeep has it, Gaff has it and to a certain extent RE has it. Most kennels never produce a bloodline, because they have not plan, no rhyme or reason to their program, others do and at the very least they create a strain of an existing line with little tweaks here and there. Consistency is always required when you are talking about a quality kennel. The thing is what people deem as that consistency is where it gets diluted.

Generalizations such as all JEEP dogs are game, FALSE, all dogs with COLBY blood are pure or are Brindle FALSE, all RE dogs are mixed or are AMERICAN BULLIES.. FALSE.

Blue Diamond dogs pictured below*

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*Now of course people can throw up AMBULLY pics all day that are RE, my point is not all are AmBullies and not every breeder of these dogs is going that direction.

Are these dogs the same in structure as some of yours NO, but they are not the same as AmBullies either.

If we are going to educate lets make sure we do it the right way, look at the dogs in question and not just the bloodline they say. How mad would Colby be if someone said I have a Colby dog because there are two Colby dogs 3 generations back. Its crazy, we have to not only educate by speaking, but a lot of education involves research. Lets not talk out of the wrong orifice people, not directed at anyone, Im just saying.*


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*The dogs I posted are related or are found in the pedigree of the dog in question on the THREAD HELP.*

*
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*


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Hmmm Good post but IMO the the bully community can't say "it's not bully" when there
s not ONE SET STANDARD. to me, those blue diamond dogs look like ASTs


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*Here is a American Bully and a nice one at that, to me the dogs above are totally diffirent, but hey I was never to good at the Sesame Street game of "Which one is doing its own thing" *


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## Brandys_BabyJayda (May 27, 2009)

Very nice posting!! KUDOS


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

StaffyDaddy said:


> Hmmm Good post but IMO the the bully community can't say "it's not bully" when there
> s not ONE SET STANDARD. to me, those blue diamond dogs look like ASTs


American Bully Kennel Club - 2008
Then click on 'Breeds'.


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

BTK, now where does the AMBully vs. APBT line get drawn (Educationally speaking). If we go by the standards of the UKC it states that the Mature male should not exceed 60lbs. (not faulted if more) and height really isn't stated. 

So where does an AMBully start and a APBT end? You brought up my dog's bloodline GAFF, which I know is a AMSTAFF/APBT mixture to an extent. But after I saw mine's parents I wouldn't consider them bully at all. The dad, at 100lbs, stands about 24 inches to the shoulder and mom, at 85lbs, stands about the same. So they are big kids, just not my idea of what a BULLY should be. 

Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers~


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

mygirlmaile said:


> American Bully Kennel Club - 2008
> Then click on 'Breeds'.


I know.... Ive seen it before, and I just went back and read through it again. I'm not against bullies, but having three "sizes" imo is not really a set standard. Pretty much its, as long as its between 15-24 inches, and not considered obese it has good conformation? the adba and ukc have different standards, and there are some dogs than can show adba once theyre conditioned to a certain point, and then turn back, gain the weight and show ukc. It just doesn't make sense to me that the standard has 3 different sizes...


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

StaffyDaddy said:


> Hmmm Good post but IMO the the bully community can't say "it's not bully" when there
> s not ONE SET STANDARD. to me, those blue diamond dogs look like ASTs


As I recall there are set standards for the Ambully in the ABKC. I see where BTK is coming from on a bloodlines perspective. The Ambully is not exactly what you would call a finished product, neither is the RE line IMO because there is such a wide variety of strains coming from it. To say any dog that drops from and RE or gotti female is bully would not be valid. IMO, as of now it seems as though an ambully is defined more by its feautures then it's bloodlines. Although there has recently been a more cosistent look, the breed as a whole is still in the making.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

StaffyDaddy said:


> I know.... Ive seen it before, and I just went back and read through it again. I'm not against bullies, but having three "sizes" imo is not really a set standard. Pretty much its, as long as its between 15-24 inches, and not considered obese it has good conformation? the adba and ukc have different standards, and there are some dogs than can show adba once theyre conditioned to a certain point, and then turn back, gain the weight and show ukc. It just doesn't make sense to me that the standard has 3 different sizes...


There are standards for the 3 sizes though. And at shows, there are seperate classes for each size. Maile is actually considered a 'pocket bully' because she is JUST under 17" and the cut of for Pockets is 17" and under, then theres standard, then xxl (all with diff heighths). The breed is so diverse that they have sub categorized them, which in the showing world, makes it much more fair. And its not 1 standard for the different sub categories, they each have their own standard as well.

And I know your not bashing Bullies! Im just saying what Ive learned ON BACK TO THE BULLIES! LOL.


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

I will take the AST comment, as they have AmStaff in the ped so, no beef there. That would be an educated view point.

As far as the Bully Community and there standard here it is, on the ABKC page:

American Bully Kennel Club - 2008

I think that would agree that these dogs are not AmBullies, but these dogs are RE Gaff or both, and to some that automatically makes them a AmBully that is not the case in my opinion.

The arguement about the AST can go around in circles all day. The AST in itself is a breed that was created by adding no other blood other than APBT blood since its inception, but people will argue that they can tell a AmStaff and that its not a Pit Bull.

The same arguement can be said for Bullies, for those who have added nothing other than UKC, or ADBA registered dogs.

Some AST lines come straight from Colby stock. They line bred strictly off of Colby dogs until the AKC closed its stud books for the AmStaff. If I showed you dogs from Colbys yard you would say APBT, show you this breeders yard, you would say AST? Thats crazy!

The lines have been blurred, I just find it ammusing that people discredit the TITLE APBT on someones UKC paperwork, if the dog does not look like theirs. I have every Stratton book written, and several harder to find books as well, but I will use Startton as an example, because its the mostly widely known and is full of pictures.

The dogs pictured look so different and type and in some cases structure that its amazing that people feel the APBT is a cookie cutter breed and they all should look the same. It has never been that way and the only time you get that cookie cutter CONSISTENCY is within individual bloodlines, or due to showing dogs in the show ring, where the aspect of form matching function is often thrown out!!!!!!

APBTs were not bred for looks and that is why there is such a wide range within the UKC and ADBA of looks. Throw out the show ring, just like at dogs in the paper and on the street and the variety within this breed is overwhelming!! I call my dogs APBTs all day long, are they fit for the [] nope, but they are what they are. My dogs were bred for show, so the look will be different, no different than a Show Border Collie and a Border Collie that works on a ranch. The type is different, but the breed is the same.

(This arguement I just made was directed at AST and APBT) dogs that have not brought in other breeds. I would say the same for Bullier UKC dogs that have remained pure in only using APBT or AST blood.

The folks that are creating another breed such as the American Bully, as did the AST people I see why they will say there dogs are not APBTS, because once you go so far to the right or left, involving function, I will say you know longer have a breed that is even a shell of what it was supposed to be, and needs to be considered something else.

In the case of the above dogs I dont see the EXTREME shift from the APBT, although there are differences they are not extreme in overall structure.

The APBT is a breed that was based on will and not physical characteristics.


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*DA*N you guys are fast LOL, I came back and now I have to read!!*


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

Were keepin you on your toes Booty!!!


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

I know what the breed was created for. It was actually function over form, which is what gives bloodlines their specific look. I understand this, it's why dogs from the same bloodline look alike, but can look way different than another. Because it was based off of performance in the box, and performance working wise. What does the show ring have to do with any of this? Thicker ukc dogs with shorter snouts, wider chests and necks, and less leg would not perform as well as a lot of the adba dogs, and since performance (function) was what the apbt was about, its not fair to call the thicker, non performace bred dogs apbt. the amstaff was IMO the show version of the apbt, but the more time that goes on, the less these dogs are bred based on performance. and since both the apbt and ast continue to go in different directions, they are two different dogs. JMO


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*Ok first Staff Daddy

I see where you are coming from, I am a UKC guy so the different sizes is not my thing.

However many breeds have varietys, from Beagles to Poodles to Schnauzers. So im not opposed to it either. Varietys can be based on size or color even. Its common amongst dog breeds even the APBT cousin the Bull Terrier has varietys.

JFlowersLA:

I personally believe that although your dogs parents are not in my opinion I think that once fuctionability is gone. I stated in my post above to far from the left to right, EXTREMES in the APBT, are not acceptable because the dogs should be balanced.

The AMBULLY is being bred to lose some of the functional traits of an APBT, in some cases the very athletism that would make it a APBT, (not saying that some are not athletic, but in build the athleticism to be a WWE wrestler and a light weight Boxer are very different. Both can be athletic, but they will not excel at the same events. Structurally one will be more successful, at endurance based events, the other maybe at short strength based events.

My Gaff Grand CHampion Capone has weighed as much as 80 pounds at HOUSE weight I took him down to 68 during a keep just to show some UKC people what the dog has the potential to look like. Here are the pics, structurally he is great, but weight hides faults and can make an athletic dog not look so.

Here is Grand Champion Cochise Gaff bred dog with some Larum Side shot Free stack and fun shot on rocks. Structurally he is sound 18/ 3/4 inches 57 pounds. He looks a little straight in the shoulders in this pic but is he not a APBT because of his conditioning?

When he turns two he will go through the same keep as Capone (as long as he is not competing for Top Ten in UKC) and I guarantee you, other than being blue fawn lol, he will look all APBT.

Bloodlines in my opinion do not make what a dog is, RE does not always equate to AmBully, and Gaff does not equate to out of shape AST, IMO.[/I/B]

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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

by the way btk, i like it when you post non bold or italic LOL


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

COCHISE! <3 

Ima steal him!  :clap:


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

The box is should no longer be in the decision of whether or not a dog is of apbt blood. The sport is no longer in affect so I think that should be given up. I also dnt get why dogs in the ukc rarely get the acknowledgment that they deserve as an apbt. It seems ukc show dogs never really get the respect that they deserve. 

Also are you saying that the adba dogs are the only true apbt? And the ukc dogs are ast or bullies? Not picking an argument just asking.


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

Thats my thing lol, makes me feel important lol.

The show ring is being used to show why some of the function based traits are lost in a breed, because the show ring is where someones opinion on a outcome matters, not the actual outcome. IMO the show ring does not change a breed however, it does hurt the ability to perform tasks in lots of breeds.

That is why in Europe in some breed cases, before being allowed to show in the show ring a dog must first be titled in a working event. 

I started this post because I truly am oppossed to blanket statements and generalizations when it comes to education, and I felt that by tackling this issue head on, some newbies will research what their dog is or has the potential to be, instead of just throwing out bloodlines.

Its like when someone says Im from this CITY, I could care less where you are from its about where you are at. If someone yells he is Razor Edge that makes him a BULLY, I would want to look at the ped and more importantly the dog.

Back argument for my APBT folks would be when looking at that same person who says there BULLY is a APBT, its not what its Ancestors were, but what it is in front of them.

The ABKC in my opinion could and should be more strict about what dogs actually are registered as AmBullies, this would strengthen the gene pool, and also lock in type. That way in betweeners or throw backs are eliminated and the APBT looking AmBully would be eliminated.

I can see this happening and I think true AmBully breeders want this and are working on this by only breeding the AmBully correct to their standard dogs. The show ring and titles will actually help a breed that was not designed as a performance breed per se.

NO BOLD OR ITALICS this time, but it will be back lol.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

No argument here.. But I'll give you my opinion to your three questions... and/or statements



Bully_Boy_Joe said:


> The box is should no longer be in the decision of whether or not a dog is of apbt blood. The sport is no longer in affect so I think that should be given up.


Agreed to a certain extent. It's illegal, but it was a sure fire way to test the dogs performance. The dogs should still be bred for performance, IMO, such as agility, schutzund, weight pull. The adba is performance over anything else. Harder to title their, which seems less "fair" but you've got the best of the best athletes competing so you really have to put in your work with your dogs to title there. JMO



Bully_Boy_Joe said:


> I also dnt get why dogs in the ukc rarely get the acknowledgment that they deserve as an apbt. It seems ukc show dogs never really get the respect that they deserve.


Well I went to a UKC show in Denton. There were apbts, pitterstaffs, and ambullies. But a lot of people still call all of those dogs apbts, even if they weigh 90+ lbs... They don't get the recognition because it's a lot more laid back, and many people who work their dogs will tell you how easy it is to place in the UKC. 


Bully_Boy_Joe said:


> Also are you saying that the adba dogs are the only true apbt? And the ukc dogs are ast or bullies? Not picking an argument just asking.


No, I am not saying that. I think they have a larger percentage of true apbts then the ukc does, but part of it is because more bully people go to UKC shows, because their dog might be closer to ukc conformation, when they'd never place at the adba. Both of the registries had papers hung, so there's mixes everywhere, but IMO the adba stays truest to function over form.


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## Inf602 (Apr 13, 2009)

Dam BTK, I see you are spending a lot of time in here which I certainly enojy. I enjoy reading your posts and agree with what you are saying. Just because a dog has Gotti or RE in the ped doesn't necessarily make it bully. Bully is more of a culture in my opinion. A dog can be Bully bred and still have a classic look of the Am staff or APBT.


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

Bully Boy Joe: 

I agree that UKC dogs are often considered non APBTS, which has always been ironic since the UKC was the first registry of the APBT. Until recently the UKC was always known as a working dog registry ask some old **** hound breeders lol. 

I personally dont feel any registry makes a dog what it is, not ADBA, UKC or AKC, or ABKC for that matter. I can find messed up dogs in all 4, whats funny is all AmBullies were either registered by the AKC, UKC or ADBA. I have seen countless dogs UKC dogs that hold ADBA paperwork as well.

I will say in the ADBA show ring they DEFINITELY have more consistency and have dogs that are far better conditioned, the spice for life is definitely there as well, but I respect my UKC dogs and IMO they are no less APBT, and they definitely are not mixes! 

The question is.......Is there a place for preference of style and type in the APBT?

The breed was both Bull and Terrier, the two should be a beautiful blend of both, or am I wrong?


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

Lttle note, I go to a lot of UKC shows and have never seen a AmBully place, unless for a lack of dogs. I rarely have seen them at shows here in the south, maybe 3 times this year. None of my dogs have ever lost to one, and none are currently in the Top Ten.

Also, a lot of the times when someone sees a large APBT the vogue thing to do, is call it a Bully. Dagger dogs are not Bully, niether or Whopper dogs. The 90 plus pound dogs I would bet probably stand 22 inches at the shoulder and I would not classify them as American Bullies, now what their owners classifies them as is his business.

Working events are easier when it comes to WP, and Obedience in the UKC, both of which I have competed in and titled dogs in.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

BullyTheKid said:


> The question is.......Is there a place for preference of style and type in the APBT?
> 
> The breed was both Bull and Terrier, the two should be a beautiful blend of both, or am I wrong?


theres a place for the diff types of poodles, spaniels, even mastiffs! whats the deal?


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

I respect your opinion and your point of view, I think you know a lot about what you are talking about, and I can truly say you love and value all of these dogs, but I do have to say that I believe in certain aspects you are wrong. The whole "beautiful blend" statement, well... It should have the strength of a bulldog, and the tenacity of a terrier. Well, when you don't breed for function you lose a certain amount of that tenacity, if not all. That's why there are bullies that CAN do the working jobs and sports, because they were bred with lines that passed on drive. But it does not make them APBTs just because they can perform.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

If some RE dogs are not bullies then why did the creator of the bloodline say he used other breeds? and the dogs pictured above

How does this dog
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compare to this dog as far as performance is concerned? Also you cannot tell me both would be considered APBT's. The dogs pictured is a pitterstaff, bully, or AST
not to be a smart a$$ just want your take on it.
she is 36lbs


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

Respectfully.

If performances does not make it a APBT then what does? I know where you are coming from and I was being a little sarcasitic in the Beautiful part lol.

I know why I dont believe that the AmBully is a APBT.... and thats because they were not bred to be.

I also do NOT believe that a bloodline makes it a AmBully, no more than performance would make it a APBT.

When people tell others there dog is a AmBully, or APBT based on a bloodline, and in some cases because of two dogs back 5 generations, who definitely were not mixes, outside of the AST arguement, I think that is naive at best and ingnorant at most.

I also feel that being an AmBully or being classified as such is more than a large head, because some APBTS had some nice domes, or the amount of bone, because once again some APBTs had good bone, is also wrong.

I think the classification has all to do with breed type and the breeders intention where the dog was purchased. There will always be APBTs with large heads and good bone, the difference between the ADBA and the AbKC in this regard, is one consistently breeds for those traits, and the other does not.

Altering overall appearance in dogs is fairly simple and can be accomplished in a relatively short time period.


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

BTK, thanks for your opinion on that. I guess IMO, AMBullies are APBT/ENG. Bull crosses. I've never looked at a APBT/Mastiff or APBT/AMSTAFF and considered it anything but a PB. Now my opinion DEFINITELY isn't as researched as most.

But Basically from what i'm reading from Everyone is that:

AMStaff/APBT = Show
APBT (original Terrier/Olde English Bull) = Pure
APBT/Mastiff or APBT/Eng Bulldog or APBT/AMBull = Am. Bullies 

Not trying to start a big ruckus at all, just stating what i'm reading from people's thoughts. Again I'm not concerned what "the standard" of UKC or ADBA or ABKC states I'm just stating this as what people VISUALLY think of when they see these dogs.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

BullyTheKid said:


> Respectfully.
> 
> If performances does not make it a APBT then what does? I know where you are coming from and I was being a little sarcasitic in the Beautiful part lol.
> 
> ...


So your saying if you have a re dog but it looks like an APBT then it should be called an APBT? Never mind the few generations of mixing breeds like EB or mastiff? That does not sound right? and the example of the dogs I gave above is that you cannot tell me you call them both APBT's


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

This is what Im not getting here. People say that they don't feel that the adba is the only "real" apbt registry, but statements prove otherwise.

Some things about this arguement on bllodlines are just becoming outright confusing, Like how Lisa pointed out the difference between siren and the UKC dog. Why cant a UKC dog be of pure ancestry, but just bred from a thicker frame? It seems as if the majority of game people feel that adba is the only registry that holds true apbt. And the UKC is either bully or ast. 

Now don't get me wrong I know the adba has the most lean and atheletic dogs maybe even hands down. But, we must remember that breed is derived from both bulldogs and terriers if one is a little heavier on one side then the other that doesnt make it an apbt? I have seen plenty of gambred dogs that look mor terrier then bulldog yet there is no question at hand.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Your right in many ways, UKC should be better at sticking to the true APBT size and performance. They are guilty just like the AKC of making breeders breed what type of dog is winning. The larger dogs like the gaff dogs and AST is what is winning so that is what is being bred. When I see one of those dogs run around the ring then it can't breathe I just feel like they are a disgrace to APBT's. Siren is almost an ADBA CH we just need a few more points but she never gets looked at in the UKC show ring. Now there are UKC and ADA duel CH but that is getting harder and harder to do.

That is why when you start breeding for show or different characteristics you change the breed. That is why you have AST's, they were bred as pets and for show and do not have the same characteristics as most Gamebred dogs. Even our beloved gamebred dogs are becoming extinct.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Your right in many ways, UKC should be better at sticking to the true APBT size and performance. They are guilty just like the AKC of making breeders breed what type of dog is winning. The larger dogs like the gaff dogs and AST is what is winning so that is what is being bred. When I see one of those dogs run around the ring then it can't breathe I just feel like they are a disgrace to APBT's. Siren is almost an ADBA CH we just need a few more points but she never gets looked at in the UKC show ring. Now there are UKC and ADA duel CH but that is getting harder and harder to do.
> 
> That is why when you start breeding for show or different characteristics you change the breed. That is why you have AST's, they were bred as pets and for show and do not have the same characteristics as most Gamebred dogs. Even our beloved gamebred dogs are becoming extinct.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## Inf602 (Apr 13, 2009)

I have to disagree with the statement that the APBT is becoming extinct. How can that be when you have breeders that are still breeding them purely? The only way that that would happen is if every single breeder decided to breed other than pure. It seems to me that the more the AmBully becomes popular, APBT owners say that the pure APBT will become extinct. Is this the way that Terrier and Bull dog owners felt when the PIT came into it's own? I doubt they felt that way as I certainly still see plenty of the 2 still around in it's purest form. You can keep the pure APBT as long as you are preserving it but you can't expect everyone to do it for you.


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

Sorry had to get off my tush and get my little girls off the bus lol.

First let me start by saying, beautiful dog.

Next the Creator (Funny to call anyone the Creator lol) was quoted in a VA newspaper at one of the first American Bully events thrown in VA. The paper also printed a retraction saying that he was misquoted. As someone who has worked in the media, newpapers do not print retractions, just because someone is upset.

The facts are these, RE as I said in my first post has gone a totally different direction from some of the original stock. As the pictures I posted illustrated, these dogs are lined bred down from Edge dogs. If they were mixes it would show at least a tad. They are not and I will personally vouch, for these dogs as not having a mastiff OE or any other concocted Bully mix in their ped.

Am I saying that no breed mixing has occured, definitely not, I may be opionated but im not a fool. Contrary to what some may think lol! I do not however believe that it can be a blanket statement that all RE dogs are AmBullies. I have spoken to the CREATOR lol, and he would most definitely agree. 

See the thing is this, when RE was started is was not started with the thought of we are creating a different breed. RE has been around for 20 years the actual thought of calling these dogs something else did not really come to fruition until maybe 2002. A lot of people and breeders on the East Coast obtained RE show dogs, because they were winning in the UKC at the time and used them in their program. Blue Diamond being one. These breeders were not happy about the AmBully fad and kept their dogs and yards clear from the dogs that went off in any direction to extreme. I would not classify them as ADBA show potential dogs, however I would not classify them as AM Bullies. AS has been stated based on ped, the originator of the line has stated several times that he has never mixed other breeds in his line. I have talked to him at length and although you may take me as a Bully owner because of my name, (Not given by my mother by the way). I pretty much asked direct questions and recieved direct answers. I believe him, however once again there are obvious breed traits that are found in some AmBullies that are neither APBT or AST for that matter, so I, as many of you will acknowledge that some dogs have been mix bred. As I said earlier that is a question of ethics and overall character of the individual.


Now on to my boy Cochise, since his pic was used. FIRST time Cochise has ever been called a BULLY and at 57 pounds fat I am definitely surprised. I will take the AST / PitterStaff comments because their are ASTs in his ped.

Now as far as performance is concerned, it would depend on the event. See the thing about performance is what are you competing in. WP, Im confidence in Cochise ability, as all my dogs before him or UWPCH minimum, but I know that UKC weightpull is not respected lol, Obedience, I have no doubt he will hold his own, He is titled in Dock Diving no hard feat there, so I guess agilty, which I have no interest in but believe he could do it.

Now enough jokes, see my father was a K9( MP/trainer for the Army for 27 years, I have served as a decoy since the age of 9, starting off in Germany with some of the most drivey dogs imaginable. Believe it or not one of the ones I most remember was an Airedale, my family have no faith in APBTs they are Mal, GSD, and 70's Doberman people. So when I got my first one believe me they trialed the hell out of the dog, even though he could not compete a licensed trials in our area, due to his breed. I have evaluated dogs for a long time, is what I am trying to point out.

I would never base what I dog can do by a picture, no more than I would discredit a dog by one. As an old dog man told me no dog showed me anything by talking.

So do I think Cochise has the drive, note drive not gameness, to perform at a myriad of event MOST DEFINITELY. He is a baby but the titles are coming. I posted the pic to show how a pic can make a dog looking any kind of way. In the side pic he is right at 54 pounds, so as a male after a keep, I would give him 49-51, tad on the larger side some would say, but I would say a good weight for a APBT. 

As far as breed mixing, if it were a proven fact in a particular dog then of course not. Its not a APBT, note the word fact, now just because a dog does not look like a APBT I would own does not make it not so. 

Like I said your dog is nice and I can respect it, but if we travelled to Brownstone Kennels about 30 miles from my house, all dogs being ADBA you would not find one that looked like her and from speaking to the owner he would not own her. He doesnt and wouldnt own a dog like mine either except the one he bred lol, Thats him.

Also never get conditioning mixed up with performance I have seen dogs in great shape quit on a dry track in 85 degree weather.

Not trying to argue and I know a lot gets lost in typing, so I am going to have this same discussion on air. 

You are welcome to debate the issue, on air. 


I like my dogs, I do what I can for the breed as I am sure you do, I dont breed and find enjoyment in showing and competing with my dogs. in WP, Obedience, and occasional tracking competitions. I have hog hunted with a few of them in the swamps of Louisiana and Florida, and pretty much love all things APBT.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Gamebred APBT's are going extinct because fighting dogs illegal. Having pit dogs is the only (depending on who you talk to) way to game test a dog.
If fighting is illegal then game dogs and gamebred dogs will cease to exist.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Oh your the one from the bully tv or the radio show or what ever it is right? That explains your answer.....


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

> Your right in many ways, UKC should be better at sticking to the true APBT size and performance. They are guilty just like the AKC of making breeders breed what type of dog is winning. The larger dogs like the gaff dogs and AST is what is winning so that is what is being bred. When I see one of those dogs run around the ring then it can't breathe I just feel like they are a disgrace to APBT's. Siren is almost an ADBA CH we just need a few more points but she never gets looked at in the UKC show ring. Now there are UKC and ADA duel CH but that is getting harder and harder to do.
> 
> That is why when you start breeding for show or different characteristics you change the breed. That is why you have AST's, they were bred as pets and for show and do not have the same characteristics as most Gamebred dogs. Even our beloved gamebred dogs are becoming extinct.


I agree with this and posted something similar a few posts back in this thread. I agree that it is sad that when dogs lack the bare minimum in regards to conditioning, they are still rewarded in the UKC show ring. I would DQ my own dog if that were the case.

I feel Cochise does well and in part because inside or out he doesnt stop and get winded, what is running around the ring for a dog. I had a judge send Cochise and I around a large ring ten times just to see if he would stop wagging his tail, and start panting, that was at a outside show in Florida in April lol. Obviously he had more drive than me because I was done!!!!!

Dogs like Siren should be in consideration in any competition that involves looking at a dog and saying its a PITBULL, UKC or ADBA, she screams breed type.

Where we disagree is when you look at Cochise and say he is not a APBT, and people who think so have obviously never owned one.

I know his faults and could tell you how they would hinder him in what the breed was bred to do, that is what all people should do know what could structurally prevent their dogs from being the best APBT they can be.


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

Yep thats me, from the radio.

Just for the record I think that its important that people understand the difference, between the dogs, but not through casually thrown out comments. You can never equate knowledge or lack there of, through message board posts.

The American Bully is not a APBT, but not every APBT who is not ADBA registered is an AmBully.

I have never felt that one style of APBT overshadowed another, a long time illegal activity did. Now the gamebred dog is going to go extinct and the ability to prove itself in other arenas is going to play a large role in where the breed ends up. 

These arenas and the REAL owners, more so than the REAL APBT dogs, will be the deciding factor. By REAL owners I am speaking of those who are not fly by night, bought a dog because of a fad. or money, or thinks its cool or wants to save a dog from those like Mike Vick. 

The REAL owners who would really fight with the same tenacity and determination the breed would if their dog was taken from them, some of those REAL owners who will fight will have dogs of RE heritage, and some will have dogs of PATRICK lineage, doesnt really matter in my opinion.


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## gtnotw (Oct 15, 2009)

Thanks for the post, very educated and easy to read.


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

this was a very interesting and informative post. very nice


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Good post man. However I think mostly what would keep going on here is opinions, this circle good go for days. 

But, anywho rep coming you guys way.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Ive been to a bully show,Ive seen obvious mixed dogs from neo mastiff crosses[obviously]to small French bulldog crosses,and a whole [email protected]# load of them as well.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

First let me say that the TRUE APBT is not and will not ever be extinct. Sometimes we live in a bubble thinking the U.S. is where all the APBT are. NOT SO. Not only not so but in MANY other countries dog fighting IS LEGAL. Therefore they are still breeding these dogs they way they were bred to be bred! Likewise you have people in the US that breed game dogs and send them overseas to fight and then bring them back to stud out and reproduce. Then you have to take into account all the illegal activity that happens WITHIN our own borders. So no, the APBT is not and will not ever be extinct.


Now to address the bully term, when I hear a dog claim to be an APBT and they tell me that the dog has blood in him that is KNOWN to have gone outside the APBT then its not an APBT. Its a bully, bandoge, mutt whatever you want to call it but its not an APBT. There is no way on God's green earth that RE, Whopper, Eddington ect are true APBT. They, for the most part, dont even look like the same dog. Also just to keep things straight, the average size of the APBT back in the day was still smaller than what we are accepting today!

JMO


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> First let me say that the TRUE APBT is not and will not ever be extinct. Sometimes we live in a bubble thinking the U.S. is where all the APBT are. NOT SO. Not only not so but in MANY other countries dog fighting IS LEGAL. Therefore they are still breeding these dogs they way they were bred to be bred! Likewise you have people in the US that breed game dogs and send them overseas to fight and then bring them back to stud out and reproduce. Then you have to take into account all the illegal activity that happens WITHIN our own borders. So no, the APBT is not and will not ever be extinct.
> 
> Now to address the bully term, when I hear a dog claim to be an APBT and they tell me that the dog has blood in him that is KNOWN to have gone outside the APBT then its not an APBT. Its a bully, bandoge, mutt whatever you want to call it but its not an APBT. There is no way on God's green earth that RE, Whopper, Eddington ect are true APBT. They, for the most part, dont even look like the same dog. Also just to keep things straight, the average size of the APBT back in the day was still smaller than what we are accepting today!
> 
> JMO


:goodpost:


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## cEElint (Oct 6, 2009)

this is my dog Dre.. he's 70% RE 30% Gaff ... looks bully or no?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

The problem is the lines are not clear. When I think bully now I think short and fat. Your dog is not that but yet I dont see standard APBT either. I see more something along the lines of big Amstaff to me. Looks good and solid though!!!


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

what about mr. pike. r.e.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Y'all know my boy Lugz, he's gotta lot of York behind him but I still call him a bully


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> When I think bully now I think short and fat. /QUOTE]
> 
> See that's my thought as well. Bully to me means it's a APBT/Eng bulldog. So it's short and wide.
> 
> ...


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

I have to say this was a great thread ..... opinionated or not .... people don't have to see eye to eye for others to learn. Granted I had to stand back a minute to fully soak up whats being pointed out... Thanks guys ~!!!


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

ok well i think opinions are one thing, facts are another. it is a fact that the creator of RE outcrossed apbts with other breeds, so no matter how you wanna put it if its RE it's bully.

IMO this thread is exactly what confuses people more, because its only opinions, but it took 200 years for the apbt to be the dog it became, and now every byb under the sun wants to call their dogs apbt, and the bully has only been around 20 something years?

i guess theyre all "_*pitt bulls*_" :hammer::hammer:


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

StaffyDaddy said:


> ok well i think opinions are one thing, facts are another. it is a fact that the creator of RE outcrossed apbts with other breeds, so no matter how you wanna put it if its RE it's bully.
> 
> IMO this thread is exactly what confuses people more, because its only opinions, but it took 200 years for the apbt to be the dog it became, and now every byb under the sun wants to call their dogs apbt, and the bully has only been around 20 something years?
> 
> i guess theyre all "_*pitt bulls*_" :hammer::hammer:


that's where we butt heads....he never once said he mixed apbt with ANYTHING OTHER THAN amstaff.

also, its not that we're denying the fact that we have bullies, just saying not every bully is a mastiff oeb mutant.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

vdubbinya said:


> that's where we butt heads....he never once said he mixed apbt with ANYTHING OTHER THAN amstaff.
> 
> also, its not that we're denying the fact that we have bullies, just saying not every bully is a mastiff oeb mutant.


no, i get that. i dont think every bully is like that, but what do you think? a breed based on looks? there's more extreme bullies out there than not


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

theres more poorly bred apbt's than reputable bred apbt's.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

vdubbinya said:


> theres more poorly bred apbt's than reputable breeded apbt's.


yes that's true. that's why no matter how many nfl players are arrested for having fighting rings, how many cities vote for BSL i believe the biggest problem is letting the ignorant breed. BYBing can cause dogs with poor temperament, massive health problems, crowds up the euth chambers, inspires other ignorant people to breed, sell for money, and a lot of the "pitbulls" which end up making headlines or stand out to legislators, well most of those come from BYBs. BSL doesn't discriminate so i think its a bad thing for all bully breeds, but IMO a lot of what you call poorly bred apbts come from BYBing. I think that's why education on here is so important


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

just like the poorly bred bullies are the product of byb's...that's my point.

and also, im not arguing,,,,,so dont take me wrong, but im sure u havnt,,,,,just throwing it out there, sinceu cant hear my demeanor


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

vdubbinya said:


> just like the poorly bred bullies are the product of byb's...that's my point.
> 
> and also, im not arguing,,,,,so dont take me wrong, but im sure u havnt,,,,,just throwing it out there, sinceu cant hear my demeanor


no man we're good. i dont think youre arguing at all, and even if we were, that is just the nature of bully breed owners LOL


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

:rofl: :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> First let me say that the TRUE APBT is not and will not ever be extinct. Sometimes we live in a bubble thinking the U.S. is where all the APBT are. NOT SO. Not only not so but in MANY other countries dog fighting IS LEGAL. Therefore they are still breeding these dogs they way they were bred to be bred! Likewise you have people in the US that breed game dogs and send them overseas to fight and then bring them back to stud out and reproduce. Then you have to take into account all the illegal activity that happens WITHIN our own borders. So no, the APBT is not and will not ever be extinct.
> 
> Now to address the bully term, when I hear a dog claim to be an APBT and they tell me that the dog has blood in him that is KNOWN to have gone outside the APBT then its not an APBT. Its a bully, bandoge, mutt whatever you want to call it but its not an APBT. There is no way on God's green earth that RE, Whopper, Eddington ect are true APBT. They, for the most part, dont even look like the same dog. Also just to keep things straight, the average size of the APBT back in the day was still smaller than what we are accepting today!
> 
> JMO


thank god for logic,and yes they went out side the breed to create the bully type,too say they havent,or not all of them are is misleading and tends to give fuel to the "bully is just a apbtxamstaff" argument you here bully people talk of so often,when it is said that the creator of the line is quoted as saying people have done this,I have read the article,if that is a mis/print or quote then the whole articles a fabrication,either way it dosent matter,there cross bred dogs out there,dosent matter if its one or a thousand,theres at east one in every bully pedigree that is skeptical.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

cEElint said:


> this is my dog Dre.. he's 70% RE 30% Gaff ... looks bully or no?


big ass amstaff with straight as hell stifles,or what ever those rear ends are called,it isn't correct for sure.Body looks short in comparison to height as well,not sure if this would hamper motion or not,but it isn't correct type for work,jmo.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

what about the apbt ? your just plain DUM (and yes i know theres a b on the end) if u dont know that apbt's were a cross to CREATE THE BREED. therefore their not PURE in any way shape of form to BEGIN WITH.


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## cEElint (Oct 6, 2009)

JFlowersLA said:


> And this to me is a ABPT/AmStaff or IMO a show ABPT
> View attachment 5648


my female Daisy is Amstaff/pit


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

^^^^^ :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## cEElint (Oct 6, 2009)

cane76 said:


> big ass amstaff with straight as hell stifles,or what ever those rear ends are called,it isn't correct for sure.Body looks short in comparison to height as well,not sure if this would hamper motion or not,but it isn't correct type for work,jmo.


his rear legs are stiff when he walks.. kinda swings his butt around.. lol


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

I can not speak for every Bully, I don't own one, I am familiar with lines. I stick by my guns that not every RE dog is a mix. Disagreeing is fine I have not witnessed a single RE breeding. I speak in regards to the RE dogs being bred in the 90s, they were not crosses. Dogs like Pike above are more common than you think. Because of the ifs and maybes I fully support them as a seperate breed.

I would nor breed my dogs to one because I stand by the fact that they are different. If you believe everything in the newspaper keep your babies away from Pit Bulls, I read it in the paper and saw it on the news, so it's true. The fact is to a reporter a American Staffordshire Terrier doesn't sound like a Pit Bull it means they are mixes.

If I was going to get a Bully I would look at every dog in the pedigree, look to see if the changes were moderate or suddenly they looked one way the next moment they didn't. I see some dogs and I agree with most here I don't see getting from A to B.

The RE dogs I posted at the beginning of this thread I see how they got to where they are. I disagree that it leads to more confusion, it leads to questions and questions should lead to answers. Education does not add to confusion, I don't own a Bully I have no reason to lie. I don't breed dogs, never have lived off my dogs, and for every three UKC dogs I own I will always have at least 1 ADBA dog. I wouldn't breed the lines together because I generally by tightly bred dogs. As to keep the integrity of a line.

Once again everybody that replied to this thread, I always enjoy a good dog discussion amongst passionate dog people. Most of you I could sit down and have a drink with and debate dogs all day!! 

I agree to disagree and will like I said have an open discussion on Tuesday night. We average about 15000 listens a week, which about 1500 - 1800 are live during the show. I definitely see where most of you are coming from, my arguement is just not all.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

BTK, Thank you so much for the GREAT information you've been bringing to us.  That is all. Ill get myself in trouble if I open my mouth in here.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

vdubbinya said:


> what about the apbt ? your just plain DUM (and yes i know theres a b on the end) if u dont know that apbt's were a cross to CREATE THE BREED. therefore their not PURE in any way shape of form to BEGIN WITH.


Just because a dog started as a cross dosent mean after yrs of line breeding and inbreeding type isnt set and a breed born,if you dont get that much well.....


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

cane76 said:


> Just because a dog started as a cross dosent mean after yrs of line breeding and inbreeding type isnt set and a breed born,if you dont get that much well.....


Thats what hes saying...hes saying the APBT started the same way the AmBully is starting...ANY breed starts the same way.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

also it must be said early "re" dogs were foundation stock,and represented the work of other kennels and breeders more than "re" and Dave Wilson,he didn't even breed dogs like throwing knuckles,they were staffxapbt from other peoples kennels and Representatives of others work and goals,not his.
If he wanted to breed pitterstaffs thats what he'd produce,not am bully type dogs.
and if cross breeding isn't as prevalent as once thought[which i dont buy],then it suggests to breeding for deformities firstly like dwarfism and all kinds of physical abnormalities and which is worse?breeding crosses or breeding gimps?Ill take a cross over a gimp any day.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

I know in chickens and cattle if you cross some thing in and then breed back to the original breed and stick with that breed they will register it as pure breed stock in 7 generations
so you could breed a brahma to a angus then a angus to its offspring and a angus to the of spring of that then angus again and so on. after 7 generations you can regiter it a angus. alot of farmers used that tactic to breed in the sweating gene so they could raise black cattle in the south. just fyi


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

mygirlmaile said:


> Thats what hes saying...hes saying the APBT started the same way the AmBully is starting...ANY breed starts the same way.


that argument falls on deaf ears,you cant compare 150 plus yrs of breeding to 10 or 15 yrs of experimentation with type.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

cane76 said:


> that argument falls on deaf ears,you cant compare 150 plus yrs of breeding to 10 or 15 yrs of experimentation with type.


it has to start somewhere homie...


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

True it does have to start somewhere but the Original Breeders of the APBT had a GOAL! They were all aiming at the same mark so the breedings were consistent. Not so in the bully world. There is no known goal so people just breed. In 15 years of old school breeding the pups being produced were alot more consistent than the scattered bullies of today.


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## Hirihat (May 5, 2009)

cane76 said:


> I'll take a cross over a gimp any day.


I am now dead from laughter! All that went through my head was, "GET THE GIMP" as soon as I read this!!! :rofl:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> True it does have to start somewhere but the Original Breeders of the APBT had a GOAL! They were all aiming at the same mark so the breedings were consistent. Not so in the bully world. There is no known goal so people just breed. In 15 years of old school breeding the pups being produced were alot more consistent than the scattered bullies of today.


:goodpost:
*HOMIE!!!!*


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

mygirlmaile said:


> BTK, Thank you so much for the GREAT information you've been bringing to us.  That is all. Ill get myself in trouble if I open my mouth in here.


well the way i see it is everyone who has been posting has been sharing their honest opinions. no one is BASHING by any means, and this has a lot of people on one side, and not enough input from other imo


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

Lol OZ. Whatever dude, its a losing battle arguing with the majority of people on here about Bulies, so my mouth stays closed. Go ahead and 'JMO' all you want, Everyone obviously knows how I feel about Bullies, no one here is going to open their minds enough and get past the ridiculous APBT/Bully war, and I for one, and done arguing about it. Hate on the breed, go ahead, they'll still be around, and that's all I need. When my opinion "falls on deaf ears" what the point of me sharing it??


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

mygirlmaile said:


> When my opinion "falls on deaf ears" what the point of me sharing it??


Because people like me are learning something~!
I have been reading, searching, and learning difference and other.
Opinions are thoughts and ideas and views of people when posted or spoken send others like myself to start thinking and wondering or thirsting to learn more. If it wasn't for opinions people wouldn't search to either prove you wrong intern learning something themselves or teaching you something you did not already know.
So state it from all points and walks of life cuz I am eager to understand more~! Doesn't matter if no one agrees if we all agreed this would make for one boring world or forum. 
Smh I gave my self a headache soaking in all thats in this thread and believe it or not am learning as if I was still in school actually paying more damn attention then I did in school .......... 
Lord knows when someone gives me their opinion I take it in wether I agree or not ... its already been implanted in your mind run with it.....


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

mygirlmaile said:


> Lol OZ. Whatever dude, its a losing battle arguing with the majority of people on here about Bulies, so my mouth stays closed. Go ahead and 'JMO' all you want, Everyone obviously knows how I feel about Bullies, no one here is going to open their minds enough and get past the ridiculous APBT/Bully war, and I for one, and done arguing about it. Hate on the breed, go ahead, they'll still be around, and that's all I need. When my opinion "falls on deaf ears" what the point of me sharing it??


The falls on deaf ears was directed at one specific statement. I haven't seen you post ONE thing on this thread that states an opinion or your view on it. I don't hate bullies, I just wish people would call them what they are. It's one thing when people bash dogs, and another when people call out the things they don't want to hear. It's a losing battle because certain folks can't accept what they have. I agree with the statement made that breeding in the older days had a goal and a purpose, and that today's breedings rarely have that. I have looked at numerous kennels, have friends who own bullies, and 90 percent of the people I have spoken with still call them American Pitbull Terriers.

I can't just jump on the Bully bandwagon in this thread because I believe that people aren't recognizing the differences between the origins of the breeds. Its hard enough to find a reputable apbt breeder because todays world runs rampant with BYBs, but don't you think BYBs in a community who's breeding has different goals isnt a bigger problem? By different goals, I am referring back to standards. IMHO... Yes i said it, dogs like Maile and Pike are beautiful examples, and the most beautiful part about those dogs is that their owners recognize that their dog is an American Bully. Again, I don't hate the breed, I just don't agree with statements like breeds have to start somewhere. I agree that they do, but in your opinion what are the goals of bully breeders? That's not a question necessarily aimed at you, just bully lovers in general.

I love the look of the dog, but as it's own breed. I would own one, because if I were able to, I would have dogs up the wazoo. I love dogs that much, but I am wanting to work dogs right now so I am going the route I am going NOW. Not to say that one day I won't own a bully, but if I have to pick and choose due to my cirmcumstances, I'm going to go with my first choice first.

Pointing out obvious characteristics sometimes offends people, and I can understand if you are feeling frustrated. But this is a discussion board, and wether someone says "that falls on deaf ears" or not, I think the discussion would benefit from opinions from those who feel so strongly about it. If you want, we can take this to VIP, but I think the fact that we have to keep it clean, means we can respect eachothers views more.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

I just want to learn guys! it would be nice to know what the future holds for the bullies. the numbers are rising faster than any other established breed that I can think of


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## cEElint (Oct 6, 2009)

when someone asks what Dre is, i tell them American Bully even though he doesnt necessarily look it... its because i hear all this talk about RE being Bullies and he's mostly RE.. and if they ask about Daisy i tell them Amstaff/pit mix


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

what has the future held for any breed or in this case "type" when the popularity is through the roof?
The number of breeders shoots through the roof,the quality of specimens produced goes down extremely,lies and far fetched story's are created to back up the reasons for certain traits characteristics and form of the "type",numerous registry's pop out of the wood work,none reputable,and in a worse case scenario,accidents happen and the media jumps all over it[hence the apbt,rottie,presa canario to a lesser extent].
I see alot of bully enthusiasts talking about popularity as a good thing,but name one breed were being extremely popular has benefited?
Its a great way to capitalize,bastardize and deform a breed,this is what has happened to the apbt,and the bully was born,now to be recognized as its own type.
What wont happen any time soon is a major kennel club recognizing the "type",i just dont foresee it.


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

DueceAddicTed said:


> I gave my self a headache soaking in all thats in this thread


I feel the same way...I was at work yesterday when all this started and I stepped away from my desk for a few minutes and my boss asked me why my eyes were so red...reading on a PC screen is HORRIBLE. :hammer:

But, I have to agree with Duece, just because I have an opinion doesn't mean that it has to be right or wrong...just my opinion. I have a Pitbull is it a APBT, AST, or Bully I don't care what you call her...as long as you call her a HER. haha! But it's good to get enthusiasts opinion vs. studied and breeders.

I'm just glad that no one is bashing on each other! :clap:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

mygirlmaile said:


> When my opinion "falls on deaf ears" what the point of me sharing it??


And just for clarification,thats not just"your opinion",
its the opinion of many people.
Bully people always say,"well all breeds started as crosses",
Just as they say"dog fightings illegal so the breed had to evolve",
Or the common"these dogs are no more than line bred amstaffxapbt".
In reality,all dogs started as some cross,but after 100 plus yrs of breeding for a specific goal,a breed is created,after a type,and within the breed many particular strains with there own characteristic traits,but all pure bred,with out going out side the breed to obtain these specific traits.
Dog fighting is illegal here but not every where,even in country's like Japan that is a very developed country,dog fighting is legal,so this breed will never become extinct in its purest form,ever.
this isnt directed at any one person,but many people in general so get offended if you want,but it isnt really worth it,or that big a deal,these are dogs here,not humans.
I mean we sit and argue dogs like people talk religon or poitics,but thank god were not talking either of those topics.
at the end of the day,your dog is what it is,so what,a bully will never be a real pitbull terrier and visversa,they are what they are,and im sure everyone has there reason for liking them,i have my reasons for not,big deal.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

cane76 said:


> big ass amstaff with straight as hell stifles,or what ever those rear ends are called,it isn't correct for sure.Body looks short in comparison to height as well,not sure if this would hamper motion or not,but it isn't correct type for work,jmo.


those legs are funky you are right about that i know the front is supposed to be straight but i never saw a staright back end like that on any thing but a chow.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

well hopefully that dog isnt bred,a good pet im sure,but that is a major issue that dosent need to be passed on.


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## cEElint (Oct 6, 2009)

dont worry.. i dont have any plans on breeding him..


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

cane76 said:


> what has the future held for any breed or in this case "type" when the popularity is through the roof?
> The number of breeders shoots through the roof,the quality of specimens produced goes down extremely,lies and far fetched story's are created to back up the reasons for certain traits characteristics and form of the "type",numerous registry's pop out of the wood work,none reputable,and in a worse case scenario,accidents happen and the media jumps all over it[hence the apbt,rottie,presa canario to a lesser extent].
> I see alot of bully enthusiasts talking about popularity as a good thing,but name one breed were being extremely popular has benefited?
> Its a great way to capitalize,bastardize and deform a breed,this is what has happened to the apbt,and the bully was born,now to be recognized as its own type.
> What wont happen any time soon is a major kennel club recognizing the "type",i just dont foresee it.





cane76 said:


> And just for clarification,thats not just"your opinion",
> its the opinion of many people.
> Bully people always say,"well all breeds started as crosses",
> Just as they say"dog fightings illegal so the breed had to evolve",
> ...


:goodpost:


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

cane76 said:


> And just for clarification,thats not just"your opinion",
> its the opinion of many people.
> Bully people always say,"well all breeds started as crosses",
> Just as they say"dog fightings illegal so the breed had to evolve",
> ...


:goodpost:


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> True it does have to start somewhere but the Original Breeders of the APBT had a GOAL! They were all aiming at the same mark so the breedings were consistent. Not so in the bully world. There is no known goal so people just breed. In 15 years of old school breeding the pups being produced were alot more consistent than the scattered bullies of today.


You have some truth there, but you must also understand that while the apbt was being established there wasn't as much of a "buzz" around it. It was being bred strickly for the sport so those who were not interested in the sport steered clear, litters where culld hard and were sold to people who were striving for the same goal. Where as in the bully community the dogs caught on fast more like a fad then a breed when you have literally hundreds of people breeding a dog that is not even established a definite "look" yet then the consistency will be later to come, and right now its looking like way later.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

BullyTheKid said:


> I can not speak for every Bully, I don't own one, I am familiar with lines. I stick by my guns that not every RE dog is a mix. *Disagreeing is fine I have not witnessed a single RE breeding. I speak in regards to the RE dogs being bred in the 90s, they were not crosses.* Dogs like Pike above are more common than you think. Because of the ifs and maybes I fully support them as a seperate breed.
> 
> I would nor breed my dogs to one because I stand by the fact that they are different. If you believe everything in the newspaper keep your babies away from Pit Bulls, I read it in the paper and saw it on the news, so it's true. The fact is to a reporter a American Staffordshire Terrier doesn't sound like a Pit Bull it means they are mixes.
> 
> ...


:clap::clap::clap::clap: :goodpost: that's all that needs to be said about that post.....


mygirlmaile said:


> BTK, Thank you so much for the GREAT information you've been bringing to us.  That is all. Ill get myself in trouble if I open my mouth in here.


obviously i need to listen to you babe.....i see alot worst stuff than i type, and the stuff i type isn't even the way most take it, but yet i keep getting infractions....by the same person.... LOL hilarious. power trip!!! woot woot. :woof: (basically i need to stop doing what i just did)


mygirlmaile said:


> Thats what hes saying...hes saying the APBT started the same way the AmBully is starting...ANY breed starts the same way.


nail on the head....:clap::clap::clap:


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Man I totally understand that but the fact remains that dogs bred with a purpose often form a standard. Those just bred to be bred make whatever!


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

i hear ya ofk. i see the apbt's fanciers view too. i myself love the apbt just as much as the ambully.....i just ended up with an ambully. w.o. even knowing it. The problem most bully people have is the hate that comes from the apbt crowd, yet we have love for them, and their bashing our dogs  see the irony ?

im out, ill talk 2 u guys 2night. goign to bury my 2nd grandma in 2 weeks. their now depleted


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

the apbt and game breed dogs are here to stay maybe not so much in the us but world wide japan still has leagle fighting!!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Vdub I know what you are saying and Im guilty of it. However I don't hate the Ambully/bully whatever. What I hate, and I think most other game dog styly people as well, is when the bully crowd call them APBT. Draw the line, call them for what they are and we all get along.

When you talk to me about your Ambully, I dont have a problem with that. Not only that but Im not on the defensive and I can even appreciate your dog. When someone with a bully starts talking about their APBT Im already on attack mode because Im thinking, you dont have a APBT, dont call it an APBT, it doesn't look like an ABPT ect ect ect.

Also, sorry for your loss. RIP


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> Vdub I know what you are saying and Im guilty of it. However I don't hate the Ambully/bully whatever. What I hate, and I think most other game dog styly people as well, is when the bully crowd call them APBT. Draw the line, call them for what they are and we all get along.
> 
> When you talk to me about your Ambully, I dont have a problem with that. Not only that but Im not on the defensive and I can even appreciate your dog. When someone with a bully starts talking about their APBT Im already on attack mode because Im thinking, you dont have a APBT, dont call it an APBT, it doesn't look like an ABPT ect ect ect.
> 
> Also, sorry for your loss. RIP


And THAT Andy, is how I feel. I own a Bully and I get angry when people call their AmBullys APBTs!!!! :rain:


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

i like the guy getting rained on. cracks me up LOL


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> And THAT Andy, is how I feel. I own a Bully and I get angry when people call their AmBullys APBTs!!!


You see me and you can get along fine! I appreciate when people call them for what they are. You said you have a bully, I think nice looking bully. My whole mind frame is different when people call their dogs what they are!

I understand not all people like the same thing. Not everyone shares my likeness for the GD style dog. Ok thats fine. Just show your dog and my dog some respect by not calling them the same thing. You dont see GSD owners claiming they have Rotties, ect.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> You see me and you can get along fine! I appreciate when people call them for what they are. You said you have a bully, I think nice looking bully. My whole mind frame is different when people call their dogs what they are!
> 
> I understand not all people like the same thing. Not everyone shares my likeness for the GD style dog. Ok thats fine. Just show your dog and my dog some respect by not calling them the same thing. You dont see GSD owners claiming they have Rotties, ect.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::clap::clap::clap::clap:

I wish everyone could see things that way!!!! Woo!!!


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Bully_Boy_Joe said:


> You have some truth there, but you must also understand that while the apbt was being established there wasn't as much of a "buzz" around it. .


huh?how would you even know this?From whaT i heard it was the #1 dog for american familys,it had a meber of the breed on the screen[petey the pup],i mean,how much more of a buzz do you want?And weres the american bully type dog on national t.v every week?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

I thought about this alot,the not all re dogs are bully,and i was thinking thats such b.s it isn't even worth mentioning,just to argue,BUT<then i remembered the dog"captain jack frost"he won best male in the adba fun show in woodland ca<and he was a standard apbt,and he was re blood line,I'm sure the owner didn't say anything about that,and the fact he was black instead of blue didn't hurt him any,but ill agree some re dogs or any other bully blood line can compete against standard dogs.
As well,i believe if someone matched a re dog,and it was successful that it would also Be a apbt,seeing as I'm of the belief that this breed is more about performance than purity of blood,although pure blood plays a major role as well.just some thoughts.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

thank you for actually seeing another side of the spectrum  that's all we ask. i COULD pass off pike as a apbt, hes in standard, hes not huge, his structure is good, doesnt have a big head, yet no matter what he looks like, hes still an american bully due to his lines imo and most others. im not the bully owner thats like all bullies are apbt. that's bs and every1 knows it. And some of the dogs in pikes ped are the bigger bulkyer i guess you would say xl bullies, but genetics is a @#@#$ and hes what came out haha  but my next thing would be, what if you saw a 85 lb "bully" that was matched and was a CH in the []. then would you have respect for that dog? i just dont see the reasoning behind weither a dog does good in the [] or not makes him a worthy dog. my dog laying on the couch with me makes him a worthy dog. taking all the abuse from my 4 yo and 2 1/2 yr old w/o flinching. i dunno. i respect u cane i just think we have different views that's all  And BTW that post earlier in the thread that I GOT A INFRACTION FOR was not directed to you, nor anyone else in particular, it was just a STATEMENT. because in the infraction comments it was "insulting another member", yet it wasnt directed at anyone. lol. just wanted to clear that up with u if u were thinking i was directly being rude to u.  tis all good bro i actually like to hear your opinion because you spread light on alot of things with a different view. as with the rest of u.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

vdubbinya said:


> thank you for actually seeing another side of the spectrum  that's all we ask. i COULD pass off pike as a apbt, hes in standard, hes not huge, his structure is good, doesnt have a big head, yet no matter what he looks like, hes still an american bully due to his lines imo and most others. im not the bully owner thats like all bullies are apbt. that's bs and every1 knows it. And some of the dogs in pikes ped are the bigger bulkyer i guess you would say xl bullies, but genetics is a @#@#$ and hes what came out haha  but my next thing would be, what if you saw a 85 lb "bully" that was matched and was a CH in the []. then would you have respect for that dog? i just dont see the reasoning behind weither a dog does good in the [] or not makes him a worthy dog. my dog laying on the couch with me makes him a worthy dog. taking all the abuse from my 4 yo and 2 1/2 yr old w/o flinching. i dunno. i respect u cane i just think we have different views that's all  And BTW that post earlier in the thread that I GOT A INFRACTION FOR was not directed to you, nor anyone else in particular, it was just a STATEMENT. because in the infraction comments it was "insulting another member", yet it wasnt directed at anyone. lol. just wanted to clear that up with u if u were thinking i was directly being rude to u.  tis all good bro i actually like to hear your opinion because you spread light on alot of things with a different view. as with the rest of u.


well im not seeing another side to apease bully owners,im just writing on what happened as it did.Would i have respect for a bully if it did wel in the box?yes i would,it would be a very interesting dog,a battle cross,and theres been a few,and it would be capable of hard work,what many arent so of course,i have much more appreciation for a dog that works than one that sits on the couch,thats just me,if i wanted a bulldog for a pet,i'd get a english bulldog,why would i pay money for a cross?
as for the infraction,i dont give bad rep to anyone,and rarely give good rep unless its deserved,and actually i dont even know what your talking about,but its all good.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

nah i didnt mean u gave me bad rep. i was given a infraction by a mod. the one where i said "you must be dumb if you think..." i think the mod took it among themselves to try to pin what i said against "somebody" (you) yet it wasnt directed to "anybody", and i wasnt saying that u were trying to appease bully owners, just that u saw a r.e. dog that did well in a show. you didnt have to mention it, but you did  And by pike laying on the couch with me, that's not all he does  hes a very athletic dog, i dont know much about dog sports, nor do i have time time. no i dont match him, not into that kinda thing. but to each his own. i feel in love with a jocko apbt that my brother in law had. i knew i had 2 have me a bully type dog since i wasnt allowed as a child to have a dog. i just ended up with a nicely built bully is all. And wasnt until i met you fine folks that i got my sh!t str8. i just find it funny that you would like a dog that performs in the [] over a dog that doesnt. that doesnt mean the dog cant excel in other sports. not every bully is a big tub of fat with bad elbows and joints and hips. that's the point hes trying to make, has nothing to do with the fact we dont call them american bullys still, just the fact that there are some out there that are not tainted with other breeds besides amstaff and apbt, or are more "structurly correct". i myself dont know, and could really care less. im not going to walk around everyday thinking, omg pikes a mutt. hes a dog. 

and btw, you did spend money on a cross if you have a apbt  either way you look at it, 100yrs of breeding or not, its *still a cross*


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

In regards go this thread, I promised to do a show on the issue. So TONIGHT we go LIVE:

BACK II The Bullies!!

Tune in Tonight as Ms Chavez and Bully the Kid discuss what exactly makes a dog an American Bully and what makes a dog an APBT! Is it BlOODLINE/TYPE/ or just the REGISTRATION papers that determines what it is? Join the chat room and discuss this highly debated topic. Also tonight we will be discussing the ABKC and future working events within the registry.

Lastly!! Its the weekend of the ABKC NATIONALS IN LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA!! You have heard the hype Atomic Dogg Magazine, Animal Planet filming and sponsored by EUKANUBA, now find out exactly what you need to do to have you and your dogs in the building. All requirements and important information will be given out TONIGHT!!!

AS ALWAYS JOIN THE CHAT or CALL IN TO THE SHOW LIVE!!!

TONIGHT on American Bully World or www.BullyWorldRadio.com if already a member!!!!!!!!!!

10pm EST/7pm PST

LETS GET IT!!!!!!


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

*stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1*



vdubbinya said:


> i just find it funny that you would like a dog that performs in the [] over a dog that dosent. that dosent mean the dog cant excel in other sports. ]


true,it dosent,but i appreciate a dog that does what the breed was created to do,you cant get any more real than that,how cant you understand that?its the breeds purpose,even today,like it or not[i know it isn't cool,or popular to say,but this is a fighting breed,and it still is,it dosent do it any good in a anti bsl way either,i know that].


vdubbinya said:


> not every bully is a big tub of fat with bad elbows and joints and hips. that's the point hes trying to make, has nothing to do with the fact we dont call them American bully's still, just the fact that there are some out there that are not tainted with other breeds besides amstaff and apbt, or are more "structurally correct". i myself dont know, and could really care less. I'm not going to walk around everyday thinking, omg pikes a mutt. hes a dog.
> 
> and BTW, you did spend money on a cross if you have a apbt  either way you look at it, 100yrs of breeding or not, its *still a cross*


well,if they had another breed in them or not it wont show after a few generations of line breeding,traits can be bred out very easily over a few generations.also I'm not convinced you have grasped the concept of pure bred dog,just because they were created as hybrids[and this is argued by many]dosent mean anything,all breeds started out as a combination of others,i dont know if you say things like that out of spite or what,but it is incorrect,id think twice before making such comments if i were you,just for the fact of,do you want people to take you seriously?I mean you start out with a hybrid,and the first generation you get dogs that resemble the finished product,but,dogs that will vary in appearance,then you get a set type,but still some variance and eventually,and not after thousands of years,or even hundreds,you get a breed,that breeds true,maybe 10 years or less,thats all it takes.
The American bully is in the type phase,looking to be a breed but still theres alot of experimentation and until ambully too ambully breedings are all that takes place it will remain a type rather than a breed.
one more thing,pertaining too your guys ambully show,if you discuss the differences between a bully and a apbt,and what makes a apbt and a bully you must realize that appearance dosent make a apbt,performance does,so just because a bully looks like a apbt dosent mean it is,if it dosent perform as one.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

hilarious  i had a whole thing to post, my internet screwed up so i lost it. glad i did actually, its not worth it


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*Believe it or not Cane, we are not too far apart on our thinking. Looks mean JACK to me, when it comes to an APBT. That was never the point of the breed, the fact that NEWBIE OLD SCHOOL APBT owners grasp to this fact shows me just how far the breed has fallen. Looking like it could perform and actually doing the job are to different things. Its like someone looking like they would be smart, until they take the test they are just as dumb as the next man to me.

End of the day even more than ability the APBT was judged on heart, how much farther it would want to go when the body could go no farther. Not saying that the breeders did not want an athletic dog, of course that goes without saying.

The fact is if a fat dogs body gave out but it still wanted to get at it even though it physically couldnt, that was the quality those breeders mostly coveted. The thing was a in shape dog could go longer before it had to display this factor, and other attributes such as ability could be measured over that period of time. Two fat dogs make for lousy matches I guess lol.

The over used quote "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog" has always meant to me take a little Terrier dog against a MASTIFF that would crush it in a fight, and watch how hard that terrier fights, even after being beaten and bloody watch how it keeps coming! Doesnt mean it will win, its about its WILL to WIN!

THis is not a quality that can be judged by a picture, of a dog in great shape, or a quality that can be seen by a picture of a dog in horrible shape.

Disagree if you like but that is a APBT, not a pretty picture, but its heart. Take a snapshot and send it to me, if you got it.*


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

a snap shot of what?a heart?of course i agree,it was gameness,that was the defining quality,and gameness that still is the defining quality,not purity,not looks.
of course there was other things involved,mouth,wind,ability,but duh?
and yes,just because someone looks like they can play football dosent mean they can.
and vdubbinya,i dont get whats so funny?
Im not posting b.s,that is fact,now you tell me the facts and well see what is funny and what isnt o.k,i MEan what isnt worth it,spreading the truth and light about the ambully,ive heard it all
thanx.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

BullyTheKid said:


> *Believe it or not Cane, we are not too far apart on our thinking. Looks mean JACK to me, when it comes to an APBT. That was never the point of the breed, the fact that NEWBIE OLD SCHOOL APBT owners grasp to this fact shows me just how far the breed has fallen. Looking like it could perform and actually doing the job are to different things. Its like someone looking like they would be smart, until they take the test they are just as dumb as the next man to me.
> *


*If you are saying that people who enjoy the apbt in its purest form,and only base selection on pretty papers and looks rather than performance or testing for "gameness" are the reason this breeds suffering,i'd say it is no diffrent than how ambullys are bred today really,but is it a problem,sure,is it a huge problem contibuting to bsl,human attacks and bad press,no.its just lazy,dog show b.s.or as some may say,preserving the breed while following the laws, weather if for staying out of prison or ethical reasons.
I dont care if jack or jill test for gameness,just dont go blabing about it,or tell anyone for that matter,if you do you get what you deserve really.*


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

its funny how u act about dogs  your the one puting my ambully down, yet im the "hip hop" generation....right? yet im holding my tongue, your showing immaturity. no matter how you look at it, apbt is a mix breed just like another other dog that derived from wolves. and dont act like the apbt has a wonderful history. U yourself should know they dont even really know what was bred to make the apbt in the first place. theres been alot of controversy on weither or not a terrier was even in the mix. not quite as dumb as you would've hoped.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

vdubbinya said:


> its funny how u act about dogs  your the one puting my ambully down, yet I'm the "hip hop" generation....right? yet I'm holding my tongue, your showing immaturity. no matter how you look at it, apbt is a mix breed just like another other dog that derived from wolves. and dont act like the apbt has a wonderful history. U yourself should know they dont even really know what was bred to make the apbt in the first place. theres been alot of controversy on weither or not a terrier was even in the mix. not quite as dumb as you would've hoped.


what,if you dont like the breeds history,why are you on a pitbull forum,or a apbt forum?
I'm not saying the ambully is a horrible dog,i said it was a mix,a dog bred to be a pet,a dog bred for size,color,a mellow temperament,a type in construction,a type bred by and cared for by many a individual who might not care as much about it than $,these are facts,i didn't say,those mutts are horrible,ugly dogs and should all be euthanized by any means necessary,did i say you were in the hip hop generation?I dont know you,i dont care what your into,i said it is a dog thats been adopted by the hip hop community,football,basketball,and mma fighters as well as people in the lime light,but i also say many folks own it.the apbt has the deepest history of any dog,and there is all kinds of beliefs about the origin of all kinds of breeds,so what,it is written were these dogs came from.
How am i being immature,by posting factual info,by shedding light on stereotypes while saying that not all situations are as they're portrayed?
and i just dont get it,are all dogs mixes to you?or is this the rhetoric of a sensitive ambully owner tired of his dog being called a mix?I dont care about emotions or your dog,if you like him is what matters,great right.
thanks for the info!
regards.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

vdubbinya said:


> *no matter how you look at it, apbt is a mix breed just like another other dog that derived from wolves.*


since you didnt read

"a type bred by and cared for by many a individual who might not care as much about it than $,these are facts" this and others that you posted i might add, could be said the same for the apbt.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

sure can,but is this now a sterotype created by the ambully and labled towards the "pitbull"?
honestly not a whole hell of alot of people own real apbts so its a comment that could apply to any number of breeds and types called the "pitbull".
and why did you quote yourself in that comment?
its not correct and makes no sense,infact it can be argued and has been said that certin lines of apbt are in fact the purest to be found in the dog world,the concept of a pure bred dog is only 150 yrs old,and colby has bred a line of pure bred dogs about as long so..


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