# Another raw question...



## roleary (Jan 11, 2008)

Was wondering how early people would suggest adding raw meats to a pups diet, meaning what age? I was about to start feeding raw to my dog whose about six weeks now and was recently weened and has been eating kibble moistened with solution for about a week. But then someone told me that you should wait because at such a young age they are vulnerable to things such as salmonella poisoning as they have yet to build up their immune systems...or whatever... any suggestions from those who feed raw?


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## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

I started at six months...we were having issues with Sydney eating dog food so fast it was making her sick...when then started her on the raw diet I would switch up days for a while feeding her raw some and kibble others, when she was eating twice a day I feed her some kibble at one feeding and raw at another feeding...eventually kibble became obsolete in her diet...

I chose six months strictly on the basis of that was when I was introduced to it, and I then did a lot of research on it and with much help from geisthexe :cheers: I was able to formulate a complete diet for my pup...

At one year (six months on the diet) I had her checked out by our vet who was unable to argue with the results...and got a clean bill of health, my biggest concern was making sure that I was feeding her everything she needed, and none of the crap she didn't...

I think in another six month we might do a blood panel just to ensure everything is going the way it should and I'm not leaving out anything vital...

geisthexe any thoughts on the blood panel thing??? Do you think it's important?


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

roleary said:


> Was wondering how early people would suggest adding raw meats to a pups diet, meaning what age?


*You can start a puppy right from weaning it, if you know what you are doing. So by me saying that... let me explain
- if you are planning on going all raw, I do this with all my dogs but not all can do this b/c if you do not understand putting the right supplements and nutrients toget you can cause growing damage. 
- a premade raw diet will have all the nutrients and supplements already added and will be ok to put the dog on
- kibble raw diet will be ok to put a dog on*



roleary said:


> I was about to start feeding raw to my dog whose about six weeks now and was recently weened and has been eating kibble moistened with solution for about a week. But then someone told me that you should wait because at such a young age they are vulnerable to things such as salmonella poisoning as they have yet to build up their immune systems...or whatever... any suggestions from those who feed raw?


*about dogs getting salmonella poisoning well hun yes they can get it but they have to already have a low immune system, and all/any age can get it if this is what is going on with your dog. but most pups have a good immune system and it is truly hard for a dog to get unlike humans. Dogs lower intestines are only as long as the dog so they do not have time for bacteria to just settle, like where humans have much longer intestines and we actually brewing the bacteria*

*what are your plans with your dog in his eating habits? 
what kind of kibble have you started the puppy on?*


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Sydney said:


> I started at six months...we were having issues with Sydney eating dog food so fast it was making her sick...when then started her on the raw diet I would switch up days for a while feeding her raw some and kibble others, when she was eating twice a day I feed her some kibble at one feeding and raw at another feeding...eventually kibble became obsolete in her diet...
> 
> I chose six months strictly on the basis of that was when I was introduced to it, and I then did a lot of research on it and with much help from geisthexe :cheers: I was able to formulate a complete diet for my pup...
> 
> ...


*Hey girl

It is always good to pull blood on the dogs once in a while to make sure the immune system is good and strong and to see if anything is brewing.
I only have mine pulled every three years b/c I also pull titers (immune system test) for vaccinations so I will include everything else. I do not give vaccinations to my dogs and it is becoming legal in most states to approved the titer paperwork for airlines for now*

*I hope I have answered your question

Deb*


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## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

geisthexe said:


> *Hey girl
> 
> It is always good to pull blood on the dogs once in a while to make sure the immune system is good and strong and to see if anything is brewing.
> I only have mine pulled every three years b/c I also pull titers (immune system test) for vaccinations so I will include everything else. I do not give vaccinations to my dogs and it is becoming legal in most states to approved the titer paperwork for airlines for now*
> ...


Well she will be about a year and a half by time a planned to do the blood panel...I wanted to see where she was at after a year since a lot of developing has gone on since the whole raw diet has started...But she really seems to be doing great, her skin, her eyes, her coat, her muscular structure, and her energy level...I am a little curious about the whole vaccination thing I also wanted to know more about which ones are needed and which aren't, but I don't want to hijack so I will start a new thread


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## roleary (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks for the replies, yeah I had heard mixed things, most people saying raw fine right off the bat while others suggesting waiting till eight weeks.
I am hesitant to go completely raw unless I find a simple and confirmed healthy diet since I don't have the expertise to design a plan nor do I want to be buying and mixing a million different ingredients everyday, as much as Id love to go all raw, I think its just not realistic with my schedule. I was thinking mixing a "good" kibble with some basic veggies and raw meats for each meal. Currently he is eating nutro ultra because its the best food I can get out here on the Big Island Hawaii, but in a month I'm moving to Philly so I will be able to get a better food. Any suggestions on a simple raw diet would be appreciated if you guys no of any that both works well along with doesn't require a daily grind and trip to the grocery store...lol
I don't plan on getting him on any type of intensive sporting... maybe an occasional light weight pull and a daily jog with me... so HUGE protein is not needed. I just want my buddy to live a long and healthy life.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

roleary said:


> ...any suggestions from those who feed raw?


I don't feed my pup raw, I may later on, but thought I'd throw out this link to an informative site: http://www.pitbulllovers.com/health-articles/feeding-raw-diets.html


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Sorry hun but there has to be a BETTER dog food on the islands. Nutro is CRAP you might as well be feeding Ol'Roy. 
About the raw I have no problem helping you out if you want to produce a good kibble raw diet. 
There are also a few good Premade RAW diets out there.

http://www.primalpetfoods.com/canine/raw_frozen_formula.htm

or

http://www.k-9kraving.com/

You can ask Sydney, but I have been feeding my dogs Raw for years now and have designed a pretty good diet for all my dogs from now 10 weeks old to 14 yrs old

Deb


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## roleary (Jan 11, 2008)

Yeah, unfortunately my options are either nutro ultra or royal canine... I chose ultra due to royal canine having corn gluten as the second ingredient. I could get better food probably but I would have to ship it over from Oahu, which is expensive, the big island is really limited... especially on the hilo side when it comes to pet supplies

My plan was basically just to balance the kibble out with an equal amount of meat.. sort of eye measuring... and throw in some type of vegetable for added nutrients. 
I am unsure about which type of meat is best... both for the dog and wallet. So I guess my biggest question would be how much meat, what kind of meat, and how often would you suggest? Keeping in mind that he will also be getting some type of dry food as the base for each meal... I guess its a stupid question, but have you guys ever had a problem with bones? Are bones still necessary and beneficial if using kibble?... and if so which meat and cut would you recommend?
thanks ahead of time!


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

roleary said:


> Yeah, unfortunately my options are either nutro ultra or royal canine... I chose ultra due to royal canine having corn gluten as the second ingredient. I could get better food probably but I would have to ship it over from Oahu, which is expensive, the big island is really limited... especially on the hilo side when it comes to pet supplies!


Hun I am not sure if either one of these are near you but here are two stores that carry Canidae

*Island Pet Supplies
808 329-5127
73-4976 Kamanu St. Ste 109
Kailua Kona, HI 96740

* Naturally Pet
808 591-9944
535 Ward Ave, # 106
Honolulu, HI 96814

You could get Canidae if they are near you as they are a much better quality dogs kibble.



roleary said:


> My plan was basically just to balance the kibble out with an equal amount of meat.. sort of eye measuring... and throw in some type of vegetable for added nutrients.


Well, I will say this you DO NOT want to eye ball your ounces on feeding a dog kibble, raw diet or both together. 
You could go to Walmart and get a scale so you know you are feeding a proper amount. 
You can send me your dogs weight and I can calculate how much food your dog should be eating.



roleary said:


> I am unsure about which type of meat is best... both for the dog and wallet. So I guess my biggest question would be how much meat, what kind of meat, and how often would you suggest? Keeping in mind that he will also be getting some type of dry food as the base for each meal...


What type of meats, you should start out with one meat and make sure the dog will eat it and is not going to have problems on it. 
So best to say start with chicken. You can go to the grocery store and purchase the bags of quarter legs. Cut them up into chunks so there is meat, bone and fat all together. 
If you are going to do a RAW / Kibble diet you need to feed both all time and you can feed them together as long as YOU ADD WATER to the KIBBLE. You want to add water to start the digestion process of the kibble so it matches the digestion process of the raw food.



roleary said:


> I guess its a stupid question, but have you guys ever had a problem with bones? Are bones still necessary and beneficial if using kibble?... and if so which meat and cut would you recommend?
> thanks ahead of time!


Bones are VERY good to give to dogs for the bone marrow and for the teeth. 
Veggies: Carrots and greenbeans would be a good start.

If you need anything else please do not hessitate

Deb


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## roleary (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks geisthexe, looks like you proved me wrong about the dog food!lol... I could have sworn that I checked that dealer locater and there were none on this Island... oh well, I have a big bag of Ultra and if I run out I will drive out there and get some Canadai, otherwise Ill be back on the mainland in a month anyhow.

I have officially been sold and have decided to definitely start mixing raw into Isaac's (my pup) diet, and am actually pretty excited! I gave him a piece of chicken thigh this morning to see how he would react and he swallowed it whole in a second and then proceeded to run around like a madman for about twenty minutes before passing out... so I think It shouldn't be a hard transition.lol

I will post up in a few weeks and show how hes doing with the diet and hopefully I will be able to get some pics up too.:cheers:


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## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

like Deb said the chicken is good to start...

I started feeding chicken backs, and rotating that with kibble, eventually phasing out kibble.

I then tried to introduce pork neck pieces but that didn't work for Sydney she didn't chew the bones enough, and ultimately threw up the little pieces and I was afraid of bigger issues soooooo we dropped the pork with bones.

I found a trainer that buys 40lbs of the beef a week from a butcher, its the stuff they clean out of the machines at the end of the day, and I buy 10lbs of that for $5 as needed. I mix that in to add a little more fatty meet to her diet.

Tripe freaks me out we did try that but it has a positive effect on my upchuck reflex...so we found other organs. I really like using the pre-sliced cow hearts, and she will practically do back flips for them...occasionally I feed her a little lamb

I also make the "cupcakes" and I like to trow in just about everything, but aside from veggies I use a beef liver, can of jack mackerel or sardines, and supplements etc. 

P.S. if you have a Wal-Mart they are really good for really weird specialty meats-aside from that I buy the chicken backs from my local butcher they come in 40lb boxes for $14


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Sydney said:


> like Deb said the chicken is good to start...
> 
> I started feeding chicken backs, and rotating that with kibble, eventually phasing out kibble.
> 
> ...


Please do not think just b/c one dog had a problem a few times that your dog will not do good on a meat w/ bone. My dogs thrive on Pork. 
Not to mention you need more then what Sydney is writing up if you choose to go on a Full RAW diet. Like I said if you choose you are more then welcome to get a hold of me and I can walk you through a good full RAW or a half RAW / half kibble diet

Deb


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## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

Sydney said:


> like Deb said the chicken is good to start...
> 
> I started feeding chicken backs, and rotating that with kibble, eventually phasing out kibble.
> 
> I then tried to introduce pork neck pieces but that didn't work for Sydney she didn't chew the bones enough, and ultimately threw up the little pieces and I was afraid of bigger issues soooooo we dropped the pork with bones.


Oh yea sorry if that wasn't a very clear response I was not laying out her diet I was merely making some suggestions and different options of whats out there and where to attempt to find certain things, since things seem to be limited living on an island. One of my problems when I started was, where am I supposed to find these things without spending a fortune...

I was merely trying to reiterate that chicken was good to start and once she got used to that, how we then tried different things here and there and how that worked out for us. That is just what worked for Sydney and what didn't...every dog is different

As for the pork pieces my other dog looooves them. But Lady is a slower more methodical eater. They only did not work for Sydney because she is an extremely fast eater we did not throw pork out of her diet completely *just the pork with the bones in it*...


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## roleary (Jan 11, 2008)

Well I started giving my pup chicken leg in the morning and green beans and kibble at night... and it has gone really well with the raw, however he has stopped eating the kibble entirely! He just looks at it, then up at me like "whats this crap? you think im stupid?".... so Ive started looking online at some examples of raw diets that dont require ridiculous amounts of grinding and mixing and shopping, but I always prefer to see what people do in the real world. So sydney and geisthexe, if you dont mind, what do you guys feed besides meat/bone? keeping in mind hes just a pup... I figure chicken and greenbeans like I have been obviously, but what about all the other nutrients and stuff a puppy needs? Is simply chicken and vegetable enough if I just give him more than he is getting now, or should I be giving him stuff like eggs, oatmeal, rice...or what? Is all that rice and stuff necessary or can I just give him the meat/ bone and green beans? any help is appreciated...


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## roleary (Jan 11, 2008)

OK well I looked into it more and it seems the majority consensus of online sources is this:

60%rmb
30%muscle
10%organ
Feed a puppy 10% his body weight a day spread into three meals

Does this sound right? anything else NEEDED, like eggs or something? Rice?..


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## pitLess (Jan 23, 2008)

roleary said:


> So sydney and geisthexe, if you dont mind, what do you guys feed besides meat/bone? keeping in mind hes just a pup... I figure chicken and greenbeans like I have been obviously, but what about all the other nutrients and stuff a puppy needs? Is simply chicken and vegetable enough if I just give him more than he is getting now, or should I be giving him stuff like eggs, oatmeal, rice...or what? Is all that rice and stuff necessary or can I just give him the meat/ bone and green beans? any help is appreciated...


Not sydney or geisthexe, hope you don't mind if I post anyway. lol

It's important that you offer different protein sources, and different parts of the animal. Add these slowly, and only after you establish that your puppy is handling the current food well.

I loved looking at people's feeding plans when I first started feeding raw, so I'll share an example of mine. The menu has evolved over the years, and has changed along with my dogs needs but I'll post what I was doing somewhere in the middle:

Mon:
chicken quarters
side of hearts/livers

tue:
ground pork
pork ribs

wed:
2 eggs + 1 can green tripe (was never able to get fresh)
turkey drum

thur:
chicken quarters
side of hearts/livers

fishy friday:
1 can of mackeral or fresh fish
2 eggs + 1 can tripe
chicken backs

sat:
whole rabbit

sun:
snack only (chicken feet, beef tendons, fruit or veggie baby food + yogurt)
or complete fast day (do not fast a puppy)

This is a 95# GSD I'm feeding. I did always have a mulit-vitamin on hand (wellness welltabs) and would give it if i didn't feel I was getting enough variety. I also used Bertes green blend and fish oil if I went too long without a fishy friday. I give fish oil daily now for it's anti-inflammatory properties as well as skin/coat and feed fish maybe once a month.

B-naturals has some good info and they sell great supplements: http://www.b-naturals.com/natural.php

Over the years I've gone from Dr. Billinghurst's BARF style raw, to prey model, to "Simon specific." You too will begin to individualize your pups menu as you become more confident and learn what your dog does well on. Have you purchased any books on the topic?

I've never grown a pup on raw, so I can't offer much help there. But there are some breeders that have their puppy regimens online:

http://www.leerburg.com/feedpups.htm
http://www.esmondrott.com/BARF_diet.htm (from 7 weeks on)

Sorry they aren't apbt specfic. I have spent much more time researching gsd/rottie breeders.


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## d0ggmann (Apr 26, 2008)

*raw meat*

i started feeding raw meat to my puppy when he was 3 months old, and did it once daily with tbone or sirloin steak ( wanna know i worked at western sizzler) and stopped about 5 months and do it periotically whenever i am barbecuing and that is like once a week now that spring and summer like weather has kicked in.* but if you can afford it, a meat diet is the best iron and protein your pup can get, but i suggest medium rare cut up into nice chunks with a little garlic seasoning no pepper ( dang i'm getting hungry)* and the garlic will help get rid of a couple of worms or paracites it might have.* don't ask me what the garlic does it's just an old remedy. peace out


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

pitLess said:


> Not sydney or geisthexe, hope you don't mind if I post anyway. lol
> 
> It's important that you offer different protein sources, and different parts of the animal. Add these slowly, and only after you establish that your puppy is handling the current food well.
> 
> ...


No offense to you but where is the ruffage to keep the system moving correctly to boot to get natural vitamins from actual nutrients? 
I would NEVER listen to a thing Leesburg says. he is the PUPPYMILL of the German Shepherd world. He is ONLY out of funds not for the benefit of the breeds and dogs themselves. Sorry if you like him but I have been around the working dog world for a while now to know he is a JOKE.

The other link you provided is a much better choice of diet. I commend them for a good diet.

I have been feeding RAW for 11 yrs now if you have not read that. And please do not think I am stepping on your toes..

Best of luck

Deb


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