# byb buyers



## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

If you purchase a dog from a backyard breeder you are just as guilty as the breeder itself. Who are what is a backyard breeder you ask? 9 times out of 10 its the person you just purchased that dog from. A real dog man probably wont sale a dog to someone who isnt a family member or someone whom there personally close to.


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## Nubwagon (May 9, 2011)

Yet another reason I adopt.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

You can argue both sides of adopting as well , where do you think those BYB pups end up when they cant sell them? Buyers just need to do there homework , there are some great breeders out there but you have to know what to look for, what to ask ect. Alot of people think if they save that 1 pup they are atleast helping but are they really? just makes more room for more pups but at the same time I dont think it matters they will ditch the pups once they hit 4 months or so at the pound and breed again. 
I would have to say adopting you aren't getting a better quality dog per say majority are still coming from the same place, but atleast you know they are coming with there shots and spay neuter { atleast in the more reputable shelters, heard of some adopting out intact dogs only adding to the problem} So would have to depend on who you are adopting from if you are actually doing any better then those buying from a BYB.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

its amazing how many people, even after i tell them Odin is a shelter dog, ask me if he's fixed. i mean really?! he's big and pretty but he is not breeding material IMHO. i love him to death but just cuz ur dog is intact doesnt mean u HAVE to breed. and ur kinda right 904bullys, if ur buying from BYB ur not helping the situation, only giving them a demand for their supply.


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## Oje (Apr 14, 2012)

My boy was a rescue so where he originated is beyond me but he certainly has a better life with me than he had before.


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## papertissue (Apr 14, 2012)

Ruby was rescued from a BYB. So you're saying that I'm a bad person? I really think it doesn't matter WHERE you get your dog from. If you're saving a life, you're saving a life. In the end it's better than a bag full of puppies thrown out. 

What you need to do. Is go off and complain to the authorities or your state legislators and try and ask them to put more laws in about BYB.


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## phrlandy (Apr 13, 2012)

papertissue said:


> Ruby was rescued from a BYB. So you're saying that I'm a bad person? I really think it doesn't matter WHERE you get your dog from. If you're saving a life, you're saving a life. In the end it's better than a bag full of puppies thrown out.
> 
> What you need to do. Is go off and complain to the authorities or your state legislators and try and ask them to put more laws in about BYB.


Right there with you! 
And when u say byb u just mean dogs that sent registered in the ukc or a major registration?


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I dont think he is saying your a bad person, majority of people who see dogs in horrid conditions would take the dog too , thinking they are helping the dog { which they very much are} . He is just saying the people buying from BYB are enabling the breeder to continue doing so. To me I think if you buy from them or not it will be the same outcome, they will find places to dump those pups once they reach a certain age and continue breeding. I do think though if you are wanting a pedigree pup that your better off { health wise of the dog/s } finding a reputable breeder who health tests or atleast does regualr vet care on the parents and pups, who looks into structure and temperment of the dogs ect. If you just want to save a dog better of going with a shelter where most of the BYB pups end up anyways , atleast there they have vet care and you know the dog is healthy.


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## papertissue (Apr 14, 2012)

phrlandy said:


> Right there with you!
> And when u say byb u just mean dogs that sent registered in the ukc or a major registration?


Back yard breeder. It's people who breed random sets of dogs without any papers or standards. It can cause a lot of health problems and dogs that people deem as "not good enough."


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## papertissue (Apr 14, 2012)

angelbaby said:


> I dont think he is saying your a bad person, majority of people who see dogs in horrid conditions would take the dog too , thinking they are helping the dog { which they very much are} . He is just saying the people buying from BYB are enabling the breeder to continue doing so. To me I think if you buy from them or not it will be the same outcome, they will find places to dump those pups once they reach a certain age and continue breeding. I do think though if you are wanting a pedigree pup that your better off { health wise of the dog/s } finding a reputable breeder who health tests or atleast does regualr vet care on the parents and pups, who looks into structure and temperment of the dogs ect. If you just want to save a dog better of going with a shelter where most of the BYB pups end up anyways , atleast there they have vet care and you know the dog is healthy.


You're exactly right. No matter who buys or who doesn't buy they know that there's people out there who will buy their dogs. There's really no way to stop it. A lot of those people are people who are saving those dogs. I use to go to a Flea Market where the breeders would say "If you don't buy this dog for 10 bucks we're going to kill it." And people would rush in to save them. They know how to work the system regardless. And until there's better laws out there there's really nothing we can do.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Free Market Society~



Even though the professional setup and regiment is necessary to run a kennel or a yard properly....... 
EVERYONE starts in their backyard....... Its what we do with the knowledge we have. Do we live in limited knowledge "IGNORANCE" or do we enlighten? Only the truth can enlighten and most people are fine believing a false ignorant truth but as people with awareness its our job to enlighten others through education. When you learn from your mistakes thats awareness when you learn through wise thought and understanding thats esoteric knowledge. 


Im not talking  on BYBs in the sense of people in their backyard but rather the ignorance that be-folds them and they push out in the public. I am prejudice, against ignorance. Its all about what ya got up stairs and how strong ya heart is; man or bulldog. JMO


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## phrlandy (Apr 13, 2012)

papertissue said:


> Back yard breeder. It's people who breed random sets of dogs without any papers or standards. It can cause a lot of health problems and dogs that people deem as "not good enough."


I personally bought my pup from a by breeder but all her dogs where taking care of when I bought her she had all her shots and the litter was planned she doesn't breed random sets every set is planned and every dog has all shots before she sells them and doesn't sell a dot unless she is.comfortable with the home it will end up in. Granted the dog did.t come with ukc papers because the parents never got registered from their parents who where ukc. So I think every byb is a diffrent case. Although it does need to be more monitored by law


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

you all know what im referring to when i say "byb". Yes great well bred dogs come from backyards.. This thread wasnt meant to advocate adoptin but more so responsible breeding That being said I am a vet tech for an adoption clinic. Getting to the heart of the problem and stopping irresponsible breeding as of extreme of measures as i have to take is the only solution


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I too am a vet tech with my foundations in rescue and adoptions the SPCA in Bville Oklahoma, as your making valid points I had to make, different language; its clear that BYB is a term for an ignorant breeder and not someone who has their  together let alone knowledge of and for their breed, especially bulldogs. Most people who want a pet need to adopt one, simple as that, if they wanna show dog or ch working dog....... well by all means......... otherwise its just selfish ignorance really, but a good amount of people who start this way end up being one of the foundation bully kennels or boston kennels, or what ever..


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Very well put Stan. Thank you as I know I dont always word things properly and alot of times let my emotion get the best of me. That being said my yard has some amazing worker/rescues. But i also have the luxury of "test driving" what I have. Unfortunately alot of our potential adopters dont have that luxury. Now with our ridiculously leanient(sp) adoption policy we know have an insane return policy. There apparently trying to make duval county no kill but that is unrealistic and some animals are just better off dead as harsh as that sounds and not everyone should adopt a bulldog


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

papertissue said:


> Back yard breeder. It's people who breed random sets of dogs without any papers or standards. It can cause a lot of health problems and dogs that people deem as "not good enough."


The only person who needs to think my dog is good enough, is me and my family so I could care less if anyone doesn't think my boy is good enough. I know tons of people who have papers on their dogs who breed, they are still Back Yard Breeders to me though. And are usually the ones who say I will sell you a dog without the papers so its cheaper for you, when in actuality we know papers cost 20 bucks so its pointless. I also do not think "normal" dog owners know what the difference is or what to look for. Too many people do not do research until after they have a dog.

I rescued my pup from someone who got him from a BYB. Would I go the same route in the future now that I am armed with knowledge? Absolutely not. Live and learn...


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Thats the s%*t right there Ames. You go girl


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Not everyone needs or wants to adopt just as not everyone needs or wants to go through a breeder.. However, i can say a good 80% of dog owners shouldn't own them.. Just let them sit around going to waste until they die.. Leave the breeding to those willing, wanting to preserve or advance their breed of choice.. Leave the dog owning to those that will for fill the dogs intended purpose AS WELL as giving proper care.

We all, i'd suspect, are animal lovers and truly care about our own... However loving your animal doesn't mean you should have one. 

On the breeding aspect, i have no problem with someone who "breeds out of their backyard" so long as they are breeding for themselves first and foremost, have an intended, direct and clear direction as well as a guiding, matured, hand if new to the "game".. We all start some where, its where you go from there that makes all the difference.


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## serendipity (Mar 24, 2012)

ames said:


> The only person who needs to think my dog is good enough, is me and my family so I could care less if anyone doesn't think my boy is good enough.


This is so true and I agree completely, with one caveat. Any dog is "good enough" if he meets your needs. I have a companion dog, a pet. Granted there isn't extremely high criteria to be met, but she does a fine job and fits well within the house.

Good enough to breed is whole other ballgame. It baffles me that people who study pedigrees, temperaments, health and performance records are unable to have an entire litter without admitting to pet quality pups, but others will take two dogs, with unknown history or heritage and feel that they are doing the world a favor by having their dogs breed. I guess it is as they say... ignorance is bliss.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

904bullys said:


> A real dog man probably wont sale a dog to someone who isnt a family member or someone whom there personally close to.


Thats not true. Back yard breeders sell to people who do no know any better, but that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with getting a back yard bred dog.

If everyone in the world would not buy from back yard breeders then they wouldn't breed, but that isn't going to happen and so while people are breeding the dogs I would at least hope that some get placed in great homes that really wanted a good pet but didn't know what they were doing by supporting a backyard breeder.

To counter that, MANY great breeders place dog in homes with people who they do not know on a personal level. Everyone starts somewhere and many good breeders know this and will give people a chance to own a nice dog. Some great relationships come from people you get dogs from and sometimes it doesn't work, but if no one sold dogs to anyone other than who they personally knew it would be really tough for people to get into dog with having to first buy a back yard bred dog......


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

I think the term BYB is so fraught with negative connotations that people tend to get real defensive when discussing the topic. They picture a BYB as someone who doesn't take any care of the bitch or the puppies, or who pump out large amounts of puppies. Many DO fall into this category, but far more fall into the 'well meaning, but ignorant' category. They may breed infrequently, they may take good care of the pups and the dam. They may be really nice people. Their failure lies in their vision of the bigger picture. They are either unaware of the vast numbers of dogs/pups just like the ones they are producing who end up in the shelters, or hold to belief that their pups won't. They have no real plan behind a breeding (as in improving on their own dogs faults to better the breed by careful study of genetics and an honest appraisal of what those faults are) 

Firedog makes some valid points as to everyone starting out somewhere, those that evolve into more responsible breeders are those willing to take constructive criticism and make improvements. Few fall into this category. Most will find someone who will pat them on the back for breeding the way they are or what they are and stick to those circles.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Not everyone needs or wants to adopt just as not everyone needs or wants to go through a breeder.. However, i can say a good 80% of dog owners shouldn't own them.. Just let them sit around going to waste until they die.. Leave the breeding to those willing, wanting to preserve or advance their breed of choice.. Leave the dog owning to those that will for fill the dogs intended purpose AS WELL as giving proper care.
> 
> We all, i'd suspect, are animal lovers and truly care about our own... However loving your animal doesn't mean you should have one.
> 
> On the breeding aspect, i have no problem with someone who "breeds out of their backyard" so long as they are breeding for themselves first and foremost, have an intended, direct and clear direction as well as a guiding, matured, hand if new to the "game".. We all start some where, its where you go from there that makes all the difference.


 Agree with most of this, KM, though you may be being a bit generous on the 80%! I deal with the dog owning public all day, everyday and it often makes me crazy.
This part is the only part I will partially disagree with. 


> Leave the dog owning to those that will for fill the dogs intended purpose AS WELL as giving proper care.


 I don't use my dogs for their 'intended' purpose, which would be illegal. I do take proper care of them and use them for A purpose which works their mind and their body, that purpose being determined by the individual dog. Saying the only people who should own a Pit Bull are those who will use it for it's original purpose isn't a statement I can endorse, though there are many who feel that way. This statement, at face value, would eliminate all of us on here NOT doing something illegal as proper owners of these dogs. I do think dogs need a job, something to do, we are in total agreement on that point!



> have an intended, direct and clear direction as well as a guiding, matured, hand if new to the "game".. We all start some where, its where you go from there that makes all the difference.


This in reference to breeding is perfect! So much is 'accidental' or with no thought beyond I have a female, you have a male (or I have both, so of course they should have puppies!)


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

When money becomes the objective for breeding then eyebrows should be raised.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> When money becomes the objective for breeding then eyebrows should be raised.


:goodpost: this.

and also as Odin's trainer pointed out, if cardboard is involved in anyway in their breeding program, then u dont want to be involved. lol. cardboard sign for advertizing, cardboard whelping box, cardboard kennel for pups, etc etc....


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Let me ask this as well. Why would anyone regardless of how reputable of a breeder sell unaltered pups?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

unaltered?


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## Vilebeast (Feb 29, 2012)

It appears that 904 thinks no one should own a dog that is intact or that breeders shouldn't sell them intact.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Not necessarily. As a breeder keep the pick of the litter. Cull what's not breeding material. Its quite simple.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

If you wanna pet, adoption is the most responsible way to get your pet. As a pet is solely ego fulfilling; and its entire existence depends on you. There are pet quality of everything already out there filling up all the animal shelters. No reason to breed a pet quality anything, unless your disabled or elderly then they would need pet quality animals from a breeder of working dog because NOT all are working quality some are simply pet quality (those should not be bred) so many pure breed dogs that are just shelter dogs ready for a somebody to get them out of the cage, especially in America, adopt something. 

To address the "Pit Bull" breed issue: When asked "why do you call them bulldogs" Colby replied; "because thats what they are." 

tradition is what has been preserved and prepared for generations to hold true ( for the future)  thus tradition..

Pet quality breeder is simply a peddler ... 

A breeder who produces working stock and provides some with a great pet or companion, and does right by ethics both of the dogs and dealings with people; that is reputable.

No one really spoke on culling here on GPB until I joined. I was avid in pushing the issue of culling on the masses of pet breeders out there let alone working dog owners. Its good to see that people see its necessary to cull. I cull more than anyone I know and I also let dogs go on spay neuter agreements which I've to touched on in the past. However as I study and ponder life a lil more its all a bunch of  Im not spaying or neutering anything else and I have to really asses the situation before I recommend such; but if your a pet owner in the city its probably the most practical thing unless your going to work, breed, and or show your dog. 
For a long time I did just that 904, because as a SPCA vet I solely agree. It was the only way for me to be the most responsible and not worry about my dogs in the wrong hands, you'll never believe what crawls out from under a rock to get a bulldog. 

However this time around I will be a working dog peddler of sorts, I will cull a few, sell a few and keep a few..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

904bullys said:


> Not necessarily. As a breeder keep the pick of the litter. Cull what's not breeding material. Its quite simple.


There are far more reasons to keeping an "unaltered" hound than breeding.. More stamina for working and threshold with stressful conditions, healthier and can actually REDUCE illnesses and cancers, for instance..

There are MANY reasons to keep a dog as they are vs. S/N and honestly, i'd rather take a hound with function/ability that isn't of "breeding quality".. Of course, that really depends on your definition of standard and what constitutes as breeding worthy... [] wins, function/ability, registry peds, registry standards, show wins, etc.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Agreed. I too have no use for a non working dog. Basically an extra unessary mouth to feed.YA DONT WORK YA DONT EAT. PERIOD!! But the majority of bulldog owners by the for nothing more than a pet and personally this trait should be culled. I understand this post will probably piss off the vast majority as well.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Its the conclusion you come to as a vet tech in the SPCA, Humane society, animal rescue and adoption type work. I can't stand people with huskies as much as the majority with bulldogs; the people egotistically picked their dog that was too much for them. (sigh)
I agree with you for a good extent.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Personally, I'd rather just cull all the people and keep the dogs...problem solved. Not real sure how I would get around the jail thing though.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:rofl: ah hahahahahaha!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Saint Francis said:


> Personally, I'd rather just cull all the people and keep the dogs...problem solved. Not real sure how I would get around the jail thing though.


EASY! Get Casey Anthony, OJs lawyers together and create your "super team"... They will know what to do. Happy Culling! :cheers:


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> There are far more reasons to keeping an "unaltered" hound than breeding.. More stamina for working and threshold with stressful conditions,* healthier and can actually REDUCE illnesses and cancers*, for instance..


debatable KM, evidence points in the other direction that a dog is healthier and less illness when they are S/N, dogs who are s/n live longer than dogs who are not s/n. Its all a numbers game, and in how they are raised. For example the 85% of dogs that are hit by cars are unaltered males chasing bitches. They would not have died if their owner didn't let them escape to go chase bitches to begin with and get hit by a car, not just because they were not neutered. We can all find evidence to support our choice, but above all each person should be able to decide what right for them. If you go to a breeder and they do not require s/n in the contract and never asks or cares what you do with the offspring that his year produced, its a BYB to me. If they just want the money and not care how the dogs grow and live, not a good breeder. As Saint Francis said, if its about money, it should make you question it.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

From working in the vet surgery room for years, I can tell you that its the old man with true working hounds that sees a vet only when they're hurt that have the healthiest dogs. Meaning no cancers or diabeties etc.. Its litterally 50/50 at this point of help or hinder when spaying or neutering pets, but thats moot because the working dogs belonging to the ranchers, hunters, and old timers are stellar. Tells me all I need to know. I have the common sense to keep an eye on a bitch in heat, I even have a kennel, a chain, and a crate by the house just for bitches in heat. Im just sayin.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> From working in the vet surgery room for years, I can tell you that its the old man with true working hounds that sees a vet only when they're hurt that have the healthiest dogs. Meaning no cancers or diabeties etc.. Its litterally 50/50 at this point of help or hinder when spaying or neutering pets, but thats moot because the working dogs belonging to the ranchers, hunters, and old timers are stellar. Tells me all I need to know. I have the common sense to keep an eye on a bitch in heat, I even have a kennel, a chain, and a crate by the house just for bitches in heat. Im just sayin.


Exactly.. :goodpost: Don't fix what ain't broke and it ALWAYS goes back to two things... 1. Genetics 2. Function.


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> EASY! Get Casey Anthony, OJs lawyers together and create your "super team"... They will know what to do. Happy Culling! :cheers:


:rofl: :rofl:


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> From working in the vet surgery room for years, I can tell you that its the old man with true working hounds that sees a vet only when they're hurt that have the healthiest dogs. Meaning no cancers or diabeties etc.. Its litterally 50/50 at this point of help or hinder when spaying or neutering pets, but thats moot because the working dogs belonging to the ranchers, hunters, and old timers are stellar. Tells me all I need to know. I have the common sense to keep an eye on a bitch in heat, I even have a kennel, a chain, and a crate by the house just for bitches in heat. Im just sayin.


exactly what I was meaning, numbers and stats only get you so much, I am sure we can all find tons of support both ways. It comes down to the individual owner being responsible with what they own, and there are a lot of people who are not as cautious or careful as they need to be.


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## NewPttMom (Mar 20, 2012)

Some years ago I decided to adopt a Pug. My research indicated that they are awesome for renters, didn't need lots of exercise and aren't typically barkers ( for apartment dwelling) 

I hated not rescuing but felt that I wanted to be sure about the dog I was getting into, plus the shelters never had small dogs. I learned a lot about BYB during my research and I have a strong dislike of them.

Now that my situation has changed, I wanted a bigger dog with much less shedding and seeing all the bullies constantly being put down, I knew I was going to rescue one. One became 2 and will be more once my finances recover, I am in process of becoming an official if small rescue with a strict and in depth adoption process.

Back on topic, tons of dogs being destroyed daily, breeding is irresponsible except in very few cases of reputable breeders who show and maintain up most breed standards. So many wonderful dogs & puppies already out there needing homes, creating more that will end up at the pound is asinine in my opinion.

I don't agree with not s/n but, for a responsible owner, I can see it is a personal choice. I will never let one of my bullies leave my home w/o being altered so there is no chance they can be bred. Since I am constantly heart broken over all the beautiful, sweet dogs constantly being destroyed, I am pretty opinionated on this issue.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

stan and kmdogs this is true in a perfect world. But most bulldogs arent unfortunately bred for working purposes. They are bred for worthless crap and need to be culled. There are well bred bullies but as a whole look at the destruction of that breed(which is less than 25 years old) due to bybs. Failed before they even started. Breed for work not show. The GSD is another example of a dov ruined by the show ring to name a few.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

904bullys said:


> stan and kmdogs this is true in a perfect world. But most bulldogs arent unfortunately bred for working purposes. They are bred for worthless crap and need to be culled. There are well bred bullies but as a whole look at the destruction of that breed(which is less than 25 years old) due to bybs. Failed before they even started. Breed for work not show. The GSD is another example of a dov ruined by the show ring to name a few.


:cheers: Ya just gotta decide what kinda bull ya wanna deal with. I moved to where I can be as Constitutional free as you can get. I agree with you however I think the Masons and Illuminati and all those plotting the annihilation of 8/10s of the population through government chess games already working on culling out the muck. Starting New.. :rofl: LOL Hahahaha.. JK around there but seriously thats the problem .. ego.. instant gratification.. no real ethical grounding.. .. the first step for anyone who might want a pet; to get a fickle plant, if you can keep that alive and bright then get a pet. Just sayin.. Its the first steps of being able to nurture and implore empathy. .. God is great beer is good, and people are crazy:cheers:


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

hey man is now not a good time lol. people ask just what kind of work i do with my dogs( specifically a good bird dog owner asked the bulldog purpose). Well my dogs are primarily used for cattle work and a little hog work(especially my great dane/bulldog mix)


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

9 out of 10 times breeders who are uplifted by their own Illusions of Grandeur and fans who love them treat their dogs like livestock.

So the next time you think about how special some well known breeders are, ask yourself where do the dogs sleep? Are they one of thirty? They will spend their entire life (other than being shown and exercised) living in a kennel. Nice.

VS. The idiot who is a backyard breeder. Many of them at least do not have tens' of dogs. Some of them also love and treat their mutt like family (unlike the breeders who have their trophy dogs sleeping in a concrete pen, or on a chain). 

So the next time you want to speak of BYB, or lessening an Americans rights on breeding his or her own dog, think about the mommas of the "good dog breeders". Where do they sleep at night?


And do not forget 99% of BYB dogs are better of the the parents of dogs you FIND IN ANY PET STORE.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

American_Pit13 said:


> Thats not true. Back yard breeders sell to people who do no know any better, but that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with getting a back yard bred dog.
> 
> If everyone in the world would not buy from back yard breeders then they wouldn't breed, but that isn't going to happen and so while people are breeding the dogs I would at least hope that some get placed in great homes that really wanted a good pet but didn't know what they were doing by supporting a backyard breeder.
> 
> To counter that, MANY great breeders place dog in homes with people who they do not know on a personal level. Everyone starts somewhere and many good breeders know this and will give people a chance to own a nice dog. Some great relationships come from people you get dogs from and sometimes it doesn't work, but if no one sold dogs to anyone other than who they personally knew it would be really tough for people to get into dog with having to first buy a back yard bred dog......


Thank you for posting that point. I have many people contact me who are in the Military for the US and are currently overseas. I do have to screen them hard (like everyone else, except I need to know the person who will take care of them when they are sent back overseas).

Our fellow Americans willing to die for our rights are having a hard time finding a pure bred APBT that fits their "I can lick anything - but am also nice) personality. I am proud to help!


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

904bullys said:


> Let me ask this as well. Why would anyone regardless of how reputable of a breeder sell unaltered pups?


Yikes!
I have seen a male fixed at a young age I sold. It is sad. They do not develop properly.

Not to mention, if your breed of dog is not as small as a cat, it is BAD to fix a dog young. For every problem you "fix" by altering a dog, you create one. Cancers for example. From everything I have learned, you increase the chance of one cancer, while decreasing the chance of other cancers when you "fix" a dog.

For me, its up to the owner. Like we live in the US or something.
Now breeding rights are limited. I do not want people to paper any watered down mutts with numerous problems.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

ames said:


> debatable KM, evidence points in the other direction that a dog is healthier and less illness when they are S/N, dogs who are s/n live longer than dogs who are not s/n. Its all a numbers game, and in how they are raised. For example the 85% of dogs that are hit by cars are unaltered males chasing bitches. They would not have died if their owner didn't let them escape to go chase bitches to begin with and get hit by a car, not just because they were not neutered. We can all find evidence to support our choice, but above all each person should be able to decide what right for them. If you go to a breeder and they do not require s/n in the contract and never asks or cares what you do with the offspring that his year produced, its a BYB to me. If they just want the money and not care how the dogs grow and live, not a good breeder. As Saint Francis said, if its about money, it should make you question it.


LOL!
Over 50% of people in jail for murder are there because of love!
LOL

I have seen a
1)dead male from being fixed - he died on the operation table 
2)a female who could not hold her poop or pee and was forced to be an outside dog
3)A female turn way DA towards unaltered females
4)A male who looks more like a female do to not being intact and being "fixed" at about 6 months
5)It looks wrong!
6)You can not show or pull them in the ADBA
7)It does not make them another breed by cutting off their balls - If they were dominate before, they still will be
8)slippery slope. Sure, you can fix my dog. Sure you can make me be on a list for having an APBT. Sure you can make me show my dog in order for it to be intact. Sure, you can help make this breed disappear off the face of the Earth forever.

I found out years ago. One of the main groups of people who are trying to wipe this breed of the face of the planet are doing so "In the name of saving Pit Bulls"! By fixing them to the point of extinction. The APBT is the only breed I know of that has people crusading to fix the breed in the name of saving it! If this is not an oxymoron, I do not know what is.


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## PRSweetKandi (Aug 5, 2011)

My dog came from a byb lesson learned. i am not guilty. i was uneducated. now Im not


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

NorCalTim said:


> LOL!
> Over 50% of people in jail for murder are there because of love!
> LOL
> 
> ...


What does jail and murder have to do with the conversation? All I am saying is for every horror story FOR s/n there are just as many AGAINST doing it. Every instance you mentioned the IT LOOKS WRONG is the most laughable and I counter with imagine being a dog and only thinking about bitches 24x7 and NEVER being able to EVER get one? THAT would be torture. My point is for every argument for there is one against. As long as people are responsible is what I care about

The breed go into the situation it is now because so many game dogs were sold to people off the street who didn't respect the breed and everything that came with it, which caused all the drama to occur and BYB to shine. Since dogs don't live 10-20 years and its been illegal since 1976, in my country you cant prove a dog in a [] so you have a dog with bloodlines that can be traced and go from there.

What you don't get is that the paperless mutt from a BYB is going to appear to the public and the government and people who rent apartments as a "pit bull" they don't know what an APBT, a Dogo is, and AmStaff, and they do not care. They are a pit bull to them. There are enough reputable breeders of the APBT, ANY breed specific breed for that matter, I really don't see any of them becoming extinct. Why not s/n paperless mutts to keep the population down for additional paperless mutts?? If your dog is papered and you chose to breed it with anything with legs that has a paper for no reason other than to make money, thats a BYB. It should be about bettering the breed not anyone's pockets and BYB do not care about the breed, they care about THEMSELVES not the future of the breed. Now game APBT, yea, since its not legal to prove in my country maybe one day they WILL be extinct, not any time soon though there are too many idiots who risk their freedom and their dogs so they can tell themselves they are a "badass". And it will always be legal SOMEWHERE in the world so I don't even then they ever will be extinct.


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## VaBeachTennis (Dec 17, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> From working in the vet surgery room for years, I can tell you that its the old man with true working hounds that sees a vet only when they're hurt that have the healthiest dogs. Meaning no cancers or diabeties etc.. Its litterally 50/50 at this point of help or hinder when spaying or neutering pets, but thats moot because the working dogs belonging to the ranchers, hunters, and old timers are stellar. Tells me all I need to know. I have the common sense to keep an eye on a bitch in heat, I even have a kennel, a chain, and a crate by the house just for bitches in heat. Im just sayin.


Good points.


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## VaBeachTennis (Dec 17, 2011)

904bullys said:


> stan and kmdogs this is true in a perfect world. But most bulldogs arent unfortunately bred for working purposes. They are bred for worthless crap and need to be culled. There are well bred bullies but as a whole look at the destruction of that breed(which is less than 25 years old) due to bybs. Failed before they even started. Breed for work not show. *The GSD is another example of a dov ruined by the show ring to name a few*.


No doubt. It's when a bunch of idiots get together and think that extremes are "great" , see what happened to the German Shepherd and the contrast between working line GSD's and show GSD's. Yeah I got my puppy from a BYI (backyard idiot), I saw it being born, watched her grow and develop, they sold a few dogs to other people (I was crossing my fingers that they wouldn't sell her), then they started getting desperate and wanted to unload some of the puppies and gave on to a guy walking down the street who just "got out", after that, I claimed my girl. She had and has the most drive out of all of her siblings, she most likely would have wound up at a shelter. 
She has a good home, actually a great home here with me and my wife. I like hyper drive dogs and come from owning Belgian Malinois for over 18 years.

I do understand what you are saying though. The ones they sold were all of the "blue" ones, because that was "popular" around here for a while.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

ames said:


> What does jail and murder have to do with the conversation? All I am saying is for every horror story FOR s/n there are just as many AGAINST doing it. Every instance you mentioned the IT LOOKS WRONG is the most laughable and I counter with imagine being a dog and only thinking about bitches 24x7 and NEVER being able to EVER get one? THAT would be torture. My point is for every argument for there is one against. As long as people are responsible is what I care about
> 
> The breed go into the situation it is now because so many game dogs were sold to people off the street who didn't respect the breed and everything that came with it, which caused all the drama to occur and BYB to shine. Since dogs don't live 10-20 years and its been illegal since 1976, in my country you cant prove a dog in a [] so you have a dog with bloodlines that can be traced and go from there.
> 
> What you don't get is that the paperless mutt from a BYB is going to appear to the public and the government and people who rent apartments as a "pit bull" they don't know what an APBT, a Dogo is, and AmStaff, and they do not care. They are a pit bull to them. There are enough reputable breeders of the APBT, ANY breed specific breed for that matter, I really don't see any of them becoming extinct. Why not s/n paperless mutts to keep the population down for additional paperless mutts?? If your dog is papered and you chose to breed it with anything with legs that has a paper for no reason other than to make money, thats a BYB. It should be about bettering the breed not anyone's pockets and BYB do not care about the breed, they care about THEMSELVES not the future of the breed. Now game APBT, yea, since its not legal to prove in my country maybe one day they WILL be extinct, not any time soon though there are too many idiots who risk their freedom and their dogs so they can tell themselves they are a "badass". And it will always be legal SOMEWHERE in the world so I don't even then they ever will be extinct.


I know for a fact woman have an easier time cutting off a dogs balls than a man. It just numbers. Male animals look better with balls. If your man had no balls, would he look funny to you?


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Testicular cancer is nasty, so are peri-anal tumurs, which intact male dogs are very prone to. Neither the balls nor the dog look too pretty at that point. If your dogs don't live long enough, you never have to deal with it. Guys, for some reason, are usually VERY invested in their dog balls, females less so. I don't equate a dogs balls with a human's balls, why would you? Most men who are squeamish about neutering a male dog are A-OK with spaying a female ( a much more invasive surgery)
If you are really THAT invested in dog balls, they make Neuticles. I think most men might find it a shocking revelation that women aren't that attracted to balls, in and of themselves. Especially older, saggy balls. Nasty. Why is it that guys often equate their own masculinity to what hangs between their dogs legs? You don't think your girl looks at your dogs balls and thinks of yours, do you?
There are many reason's to debate spaying or neutering, the APPEARANCE of the balls really shouldn't be one of them, either for or against.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Exactly Ew I agree if my man had no balls it would be fine by me not like that's an attractive part of the body. I could care less as long as his personality has some balls, lol. What women WOULD care if they were there NOT physically?! lol But really I try not To humanize my dogs. So comparing dogs neutering to a male human missing them is just laughable and not right lol 

Like some are saying there are good and bad points to doing it early late never whatever. This was about BYB sucking and how THEY are more than a s/n there far too many dogs for the breed to go extinct in our lifetimes.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

I read an article recently about chemical castration making a comeback. Good news for guys!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Kingsgurl said:


> I read an article recently about chemical castration making a comeback. Good news for guys!


hahahahaha sounds kinda scary... lol


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Sooo on the whole spay/neuter subject:

I encourage spay and neuter because most people don't have the ability to keep thier dogs from breeding.

Both sides have health consequences, however not making more animals pushes me to encourage altering.

*However in over 12 years of owning dogs myself and 26 years of animals in my family, I have NEVER had an animal spay or neutered until the last 3 years ( I have a neutered male) and I have NEVER had an animal with ANY of the health issues people bring up to promote altering. Those health issues are used to convince people to alter their animals when health is not the reason to alter, avoiding reproduction is.*

I am sure healthy issues happen, and I have seen issues caused by altering however neither side has such sever issues to use them to promote one way or the other. These are not common events and people who push altering preach health issues like altering your animal will keep them healthy and thats not true, thought it prevents certain things, it has risks and issues of its own that counter act the good that it does.

So the health side is quite irrelevant and it needs to come down to whether you can keep your animal from breeding and whether you want to deal with females in heat.

-----I would also never want my man without balls


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

There are health risks and benefits on both sides. One can pretty much find studies to support whatever your personal preference is. Being involved in rescue, I naturally suggest to people with PETS that they alter them. Dealing with intact dogs (especially multiple ones) seems to be a bit beyond what the AVERAGE pet owner is capable of. (oops, I didn't know he would jump that fence, he never did before. Oops, my friend let them out together. Oops, who would have thunk she would get pregnant, she is just a puppy, on and on)
Your experienced pet owners fall into another category, they KNOW these things happen, they know how to manage it. People who come to internet forums seeking advice on spaying or neutering seldom fall under this category, imo.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

NorCalTim said:


> I know for a _*fact*_ woman have an easier time cutting off a dogs balls than a man. It just numbers. Male animals look better with balls. If your man had no balls, would he look funny to you?


really?! for a fact? i think not. and from what ive read from u, ur awfully full of urself. my man has balls but they dont work. he's technically been fixed but that doesnt make him any less of a man. would be the same as getting implants for a dog.

i didnt have a choice on getting my boy fixed, being a shelter dog and all. but i agree with Ames in the fact that at least hes not chasing bitches and marking everywhere. not to mention if the shelter didnt make u get them fixed then some dumb  would prolly adopt them and breed them saying "hes got such a great temperament and he looks badass."

so really most of the time it comes down to owners choice. its just some owners are stupidly irresponsible.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

*Think ACDC*



Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> really?! for a fact? i think not. and from what ive read from u, ur awfully full of urself. my man has balls but they dont work. he's technically been fixed but that doesnt make him any less of a man. would be the same as getting implants for a dog.
> 
> i didnt have a choice on getting my boy fixed, being a shelter dog and all. but i agree with Ames in the fact that at least hes not chasing bitches and marking everywhere. not to mention if the shelter didnt make u get them fixed then some dumb  would prolly adopt them and breed them saying "hes got such a great temperament and he looks badass."
> 
> so really most of the time it comes down to owners choice. its just some owners are stupidly irresponsible.


Its no small sample. I have spoke with many, many people about if they will "fix" their puppy. I am slightly full of myself. Thank God. You must be able to stick up for yourself this day and age. The APBT is the only breed who the same people who are trying to "save it" are also pro spay laws. Its a slippery slope.

I stay out of other peoples decision (with so many people passing laws on their neighbors, its good to stay out of making decisions for other people as much as possible). The males do not develop all the way if they have been fixed before they are full grown. Some laws require a dog to be fixed by 6 months of age. Six months is no good!

If containing your male is why you fix him,..... Why would you own an APBT.

BTW
I live in ranch country and have spoke with someone who made the mistake of fixing his cattle dog. No balls = less drive. He now has a retired "cattle dog".
On the flip side, if a fixed female pure bred APBT sees an intact female she does not know, keep your eyes open! (they can become mean to intact dogs after being fixed).


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## Cheytmo (Nov 10, 2012)

Mine came from a rescue program that specifically rescues already bred pitbulls. I kind of feel like I in a way did get a BYB dog but I also feel like I am helping the situation.


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