# I know it's beating a dead dog, but



## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

I just recently found out that my new dog is RE (Razors Edge). I found the former owner and had him sign my ADBA certificate. He actually lives like a mile away so it turner out good. Back to the reason for posting. I know everyone labels RE dogs bullies, but after doing research at RAZORS EDGE / BOW WOW - OFFICIAL WEBSITE

They say NO OTHER BREED was used to create this line. I have always imagined bullies as the little ugly bulldog/pitbull looking dogs, but again after doing research I found that there are a few. Like the ugly small overdone ones, then some that look nothing like that. Like The Notorious Juan Gotti and my RE dog http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/36060-my-new-boy.html

If the RE founders say no other breeds were used for this line how can they be bullies aside from all the other crap that other people are introducing to the line? Which if its not the RE ppl it shouldnt be RE, right?

Now I dont want ppl in here fighting. Thats all that happens in these types of threads. Thats why I wanted to make a new one because going through the old ones everyone just argues and gives di<% head opinions.

But what exactly makes the RE a bully? Or is it just opinions. What exactly is the bully standard? If its those lil small sloppy freaks my dog is not a Bully by standard. He is almost perfect to me, just on tall side. I thought bullys were short.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I think American Bully breeders can't even decide on how the dogs should look that is why they have made 4 size classes, pocket, classic, standard and XL. 

Dave Wilson may not have added any thing else to his RE dogs, but I do believe that a lot of people did, Ironcross kennels was one that was caught for it, so you can bet that there are more out there. It may not have been the original intention of the creator, but the creator can not control the mass of backyard breeders out there.

I have also read that it is heavily speculated that the Juan Gotti dog was mixed. 

But this is just my opinion, gathered from what I have read on the interwebs. And from what my eyes tell me to believe when I see pics of an extreme mutant dog that supposedly has no other breeds in it. And I'm sure there are still Ambully lines that did remain true to just being APBT and Amstaff. But I think they run more along the lines of the classic bullies.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Another question is why are American Bully owners so concerned about their dog's having mixed in breeds or not, they are their own breed of dog now, they are not APBT. If the owner wants an APBT, they should get one of them instead.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> Dave Wilson may not have added any thing else to his RE dogs, but I do believe that a lot of people did, Ironcross kennels was one that was caught for it, so you can bet that there are more out there. It may not have been the original intention of the creator, but the creator can not control the mass of backyard breeders out there.


Then why not just exclude those dogs not all RE


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

SuthernStyles said:


> Then why not just exclude those dogs not all RE


Because many of them have RE dogs in their pedigrees. And you have to go by what the ped says, unless you do some extensive DNA work. Which can be come impossible if the dogs in the older generations are dead and were never DNA tested. People many times hung papers on dogs. Saying that this dog was the sire of the litter that is registered, when really the sire was another breed or another dog within the breed.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> Another question is why are American Bully owners so concerned about their dog's having mixed in breeds or not, they are their own breed of dog now, they are not APBT. If the owner wants an APBT, they should get one of them instead.


BC the majority of people who have them dont want them once they know the difference. Everyone is mislead by them being called APBT. JMO


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> Because many of them have RE dogs in their pedigrees. And you have to go by what the ped says, unless you do some extensive DNA work. Which can be come impossible if the dogs in the older generations are dead and were never DNA tested. People many times hung papers on dogs. Saying that this dog was the sire of the litter that is registered, when really the sire was another breed or another dog within the breed.


Makes sense. Yea people still do and always will hang papers


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

SuthernStyles said:


> BC the majority of people who have them dont want them once they know the difference. Everyone is mislead by them being called APBT. JMO


This is a sad truth. But, Buyer Beware! People need to do more research on what they want before going out and putting money down on a dog. If the dog was a rescue or was gotten for free, I don't think people mind as much since they didn't know what they were getting into. But you are right, there are a lot of websites advertising their dogs as APBT, and I am not sure they even know the difference. They just like making that money.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> there are a lot of websites advertising their dogs as APBT, and I am not sure they even know the difference. They just like making that money.


lol yeah Ill sign up on sites and argue with some of the people. Makes me sick


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

All i really have to say is 1. RE, Gotti and any other American Bully bloodlines are not APBT. No matter how great they look like at the end of the day they are American Bullies. 2. You can not get pockets, xl, xxl, classic and standard bullies all from the same two breeds. Something else HAS to be mixed in theres too many extremes from all these bullies being created from an Amstaff/APBT. It doesnt work that way. Some will argue selective breeding some will also argue dwarfism but neither can explain this many extremes to the magnitude of which they are. I have seen pictures of bullies next to english bulldogs and the ONLY difference was the head appearance.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

LMAO! Dwarfism? Really? And how many instances did we have of that occurring solely in APBT's before the bully creation. People will say anything.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

[email protected]


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Yep, i had an argument with this guy who had a horrible looking xl pocket (or whatever) and he was trying to tell me it was rarer because of the dwarfism. which at that point i had to walk away because i was so dumbfounded i didnt even know how to respond. lol


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

When it comes to RE IMO no they did not start as American Bullies the original dogs were APBT ( or Amstaffs) and labeled RE however not bred by Dave, however you can clearly see within a generation where they took 2 standard dogs and all of a sudden you have a complete structure change and you can see where mixing began. It was not a slow steady process. Look at the pedigree and look at the dogs.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Im getting his pedigree to find out about mine. As mentioned above I just got the signature and got the dog kinda spur of the moment.


Does anyone have pics of the old school RE? I have tried looking, but you know how ppl call their dogs anything


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

http://www.gopitbull.com/bullies-101/32818-razors-edge-representatives-foundation.html


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

There is a thread somewhere in the Bullies 101 section of the foundation dogs. Which I find some to be questionable. Ok Holly got it above me.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

The first dogs in that thread are many generations back. However RE moved from a typical UKC show dog or Amstaff dog and then after a couple years began the bully movement at which time you can see where the dogs went from UKC type dogs to your now a days bullies in only 1-3 generations. In those generations not only can you see obvious mixing, but usually the mixed in breed itself is identifiable.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

American_Pit13 said:


> The first dogs in that thread are many generations back. However RE moved from a typical UKC show dog or Amstaff dog and then after a couple years began the bully movement at which time you can see where the dogs went from UKC type dogs to your now a days bullies in only 1-3 generations. In those generations not only can you see obvious mixing, but usually the mixed in breed itself is identifiable.


Do you think the classic bullies are the ones with nothing mixed in?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Shes Got Heart said:


> Do you think the classic bullies are the ones with nothing mixed in?


A well bred classic is the only American Bully i can respect.. No offense to anyone.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Shes Got Heart said:


> Do you think the classic bullies are the ones with nothing mixed in?


No the Classic is meant to have a more "Amstaff" Look as what I have seen, but I don't think it means none of them are mixed.

Mixing is looked at in such a negative light and I am not sure why as that is how they developed a new breed and they should at least be honest about how the breed was created because its laughable for people to sit and say their was no mixing..If their was no mixing how is it a new breed? lol


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

So basically the old school was not bully, but today they are? Just depending on pedigree?


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> A well bred classic is the only American Bully i can respect.. No offense to anyone.


I have respect for breeders that are trying to improve the breed. Those that are health testing and titling as well as DNA and putting their dogs up for the breed they are. But I only seen of a few that do.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Shes Got Heart said:


> I have respect for breeders that are trying to improve the breed. Those that are health testing and titling as well as DNA and putting their dogs up for the breed they are. But I only seen of a few that do.


Well of course but theyre all about the $$$. Most of them are anyway. To me the Classic is what the Ambully group should be striving for. All these pockets and xl's have so many health problems due to not health testing and just throwing dogs together to make a profit.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Most people know how I feel about this but here I go again. RE dog's old and new are NOT APBT's. Dave Wilson when he founded the line was not breeding box dog's (proven tested dogs) just because he used APBT blood in his breeding program does not make those dog's APBT's. The original RE foundation stock that we know of was a mix of APBT and Staff Blood however let's look at what Dave Wilson was trying to accomplish. Was Dave Wilson breeding to an APBT standard? Was he breeding working dogs? NO! He was breeding show dog's that over time evolved into the American Bully. There is not one pedigree of a working RE dog when I say working I am referring to a RE dog that has actually proven it's merits in the box like all working APBT's have from the past. Dave Wilson has stated many times when he started breeding his vision in mind was to create a breed of dog with the loyalty of an APBT without the DA, gameness, ect all the qualities an APBT should be bred for and posses. Therefore when we look at the RE line we have to look at the main elements of the bloodline purpose, function, standard, and then we must look at Dave Wilson's vision and what he was breeding for. After we have evaluated those things and looked at the bloodline from the beginning to now we can see Dave Wilson's vision and what direction he choose to take his dog's. It does not matter where they started off it's the purpose and the direction he chose to take his dogs.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Most people know how I feel about this but here I go again. RE dog's old and new are NOT APBT's. Dave Wilson when he founded the line was not breeding box dog's (proven tested dogs) just because he used APBT blood in his breeding program does not make those dog's APBT's. The original RE foundation stock that we know of was a mix of APBT and Staff Blood however let's look at what Dave Wilson was trying to accomplish. Was Dave Wilson breeding to an APBT standard? Was he breeding working dogs? NO! He was breeding show dog's that over time evolved into the American Bully. There is not one pedigree of a working RE dog when I say working I am referring to a RE dog that has actually proven it's merits in the box like all working APBT's have from the past. Dave Wilson has stated many times when he started breeding his vision in mind was to create a breed of dog with the loyalty of an APBT without the DA, gameness, ect all the qualities an APBT should be bred for and posses. Therefore when we look at the RE line we have to look at the main elements of the bloodline purpose, function, standard, and then we must look at Dave Wilson's vision and what he was breeding for. After we have evaluated those things and look at the bloodline from the beginning to now we can see Dave Wilson's vision and what direction he choose to take his dog's.


:goodpost::clap:


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Sadie said:


> he used APBT blood in his breeding program does not make those dog's APBT's. The original RE foundation stock that we know of was a mix of APBT and Staff Blood.


Dont kill me, but what about APBT and Staffs being the same?


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I see the argument a lot that a dog is not an APBT unless it was tested in the box. So what does that make the ones that are purebred and papered but not tested? They still have the same DNA as the dogs they came from. Just because they are not proven. I am referring to dogs that do fit the APBT standard.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

SuthernStyles said:


> Dont kill me, but what about APBT and Staffs being the same?


Many will say since they have been bred for separate purposes since the 1930's that they have become a different breed entirely. But since nothing was added to the Amstaff breed wise, they still have the same genetic make up... You can see a large difference in an ADBA dog vs an AKC Staff. But I haven't made up my mind completely on them being entirely different. Look at the difference in other breeds working vs show. Google field labs.... big difference there along with Spring Spaniels.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Some people don't consider a dog that hasn't been proven in the box an APBT however that is opinion. 

Not fighting a dog does not change its blood or breed anymore than fighting a dog proves its breed. Fighting is what created the APBT not how you tell if a dog is APBT. Fighting is for testing gameness not proving purity.....

However that is going to vary from opinion to opinion.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The APBT came before the Staff. Staff's and APBT's are not the same breed today. They share the same genetics but through selective breeding and purpose they are no longer the same breed. Purpose is what separates the APBT from the Staff. The AKC Staff breeder's have been breeding these dog's for the show ring for I believe at least 60+ years. 60 years of breeding away from the box. They don't even look like the same breed anymore. The APBT is a working animal bred for working sports. Both breed's have a very different purpose. If you have the opportunity to talk to some AKC show breeder's they will tell you the Amstaff is it's own breed. Even though the registries UKC/ADBA will allow the AKC staff to be registered as an APBT. Die hard AKC Staff owner's will not register their dog's until those registries acknowledge the Amstaff as it's own breed. They do not want their dogs to be associated with the APBT and why should they? The dog's are not the same and have gone different directions. I don't want a staff being registered as an APBT!!! lol Because they are NOT Abpt's. Once the registries acknowledge the AKC staff as a separate breed people will be forced to accept that they are in fact different breeds. I can't take my game bred APBT's and register them with the AKC as AMSTAFF's so why should they allow the AKC staff dog's to be registered as APBT's?


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

oops someone posted above me so never mind this


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

I wonder since ukc and adba APBT have different features they will someday be considered another breed


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

They are considered a different breed by the AKC and Enthusiasts of both breeds. It's the UKC and the ADBA that has not yet made it an option for AKC staff owner's to register their staff's as American Staffordshire Terriers within the registries. Until this happens people will still try to claim them as being the same breed But the fanciers and enthusiasts know better.


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## dsgdlover (Feb 21, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> All i really have to say is 1. RE, Gotti and any other American Bully bloodlines are not APBT. No matter how great they look like at the end of the day they are American Bullies. 2. You can not get pockets, xl, xxl, classic and standard bullies all from the same two breeds. Something else HAS to be mixed in theres too many extremes from all these bullies being created from an Amstaff/APBT. It doesnt work that way. Some will argue selective breeding some will also argue dwarfism but neither can explain this many extremes to the magnitude of which they are. I have seen pictures of bullies next to english bulldogs and the ONLY difference was the head appearance.


So reading this, would lead me to think that the Schnauzer is not pure breed due to all the sizes,(standard,min, giant etc)many other breeds as well, therefore makes this is a tough thread to speak on. Thanks for the read tho.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Ps once the UKC and the ADBA come on board with the rest of us it will cut down on these pitter staff breedings as the gene pools should tighten up and serious show folks will start breeding to the standards set for both breeds.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> The APBT came before the Staff. Staff's and APBT's are not the same breed today. They share the same genetics but through selective breeding and purpose they are no longer the same breed. Purpose is what separates the APBT from the Staff. The AKC Staff breeder's have been breeding these dog's for the show ring for I believe at least 60+ years. 60 years of breeding away from the box. They don't even look like the same breed anymore. The APBT is a working animal bred for working sports. Both breed's have a very different purpose. If you have the opportunity to talk to some AKC show breeder's they will tell you the Amstaff is it's own breed. Even though the registries UKC/ADBA will allow the AKC staff to be registered as an APBT. Die hard AKC Staff owner's will not register their dog's until those registries will acknowledge the Amstaff as it's own breed. They do not want their dogs to be associated with the APBT and why should they? The dog's are not the same and have gone different directions. I don't want a staff being registered as an APBT!!! lol Because they are NOT Abpt's. Once the registries acknowledge the AKC staff as a separate breed people will be forced to accept that they are in fact different breeds. I can't take my game bred APBT's and register them with the AKC as AMSTAFF's so why should they allow the AKC staff dog's to be registered as APBT's?


Another :goodpost: from Sadie!

To add to this i believe that back in the good ole' days perhaps the "its not an APBT unless its been proven" statement might have held much more merit than it does today. All we have left are standards, bloodlines and drives. Because in no way shape or form will dog fighting be legalized again in the States we must come together and breed for a new age purpose. Whether we want this breed to continue as a working breed or carry on to more of a sporting breed.

There are still places in the world where they use apbt's legally for fighting, there is very little separating their dogs from well bred ones here. The only difference is we can't prove their gameness while other countries can and do.

Saying the APBT and AmStaff are the same breed is just as wrong as saying American Bullies and APBT's are the same.

Ive seen excellent and well bred AmStaffs with loads of drive but they lack game which is where the APBT comes into play. If they were to legalize dog fighting today there would be some that wouldn't have the slightest chance in the world but the gameness is still in this breed heavily, tested or not. Its evident by how much DA is in our dogs and the unfortunate stories of either ignorant uneducated owners or just yard accidents from responsible owners proves they still have what they've always had.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

dsgdlover said:


> So reading this, would lead me to think that the Schnauzer is not pure breed due to all the sizes,(standard,min, giant etc)many other breeds as well, therefore makes this is a tough thread to speak on. Thanks for the read tho.


Interesting way to look at it


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> Another :goodpost: from Sadie!
> 
> To add to this i believe that back in the good ole' days perhaps the "its not an APBT unless its been proven" statement might have held much more merit than it does today. All we have left are standards, bloodlines and drives. Because in no way shape or form will dog fighting be legalized again in the States we must come together and breed for a new age purpose. Whether we want this breed to continue as a working breed or carry on to more of a sporting breed.
> 
> ...


I dont believe gameness has a say in what the breed is, more of what the dog is about


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

dsgdlover said:


> So reading this, would lead me to think that the Schnauzer is not pure breed due to all the sizes,(standard,min, giant etc)many other breeds as well, therefore makes this is a tough thread to speak on. Thanks for the read tho.


The standard and giant Schnauzers have been around much longer than these mini's have. As to whether they have mixed them with something else i have no idea, i don't really care enough about Schnauzers to really look into it.

All these macro dogs, 2lbs Chi's, poodles, etc would you consider those purebred? I don't.

Breeds can go from small to smaller over a period of time and big to larger over a period of time. Great Danes for example, years ago the set accepted size was 90 - 120lbs. However due to the popularity of "smaller/bigger is better" we now see Great Danes in the 180 - 200+ range on a fairly common basis. I have never seen a breed have a set standard and split going smaller and larger at virtually the same time without something going on behind closed doors. Especially THAT fast. The American Bully has been around for roughly 15 - 20 years, maybe 8 - 10 years of that has there been a MAJOR shoot up in various extremes for the breed? Where did they all come from? Selective breeding? Dwarfisms? Ask me and i say no.

Also i might also mention the fact its very ironic that many of these "shorter" bullies and pockets share the same health problems as EB's.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Oh no southern styles these dog's were bred for gameness first and foremost that is the very key element of the breed dog men bred and selected this trait specifically without it you don't have a fighting dog. It's just without testing for it you can't say wether your dog is game or not. They are all cur's until proven otherwise LOL. My dog's are bred down from game dog's you can't find one show dog in my dog's pedigree's all the dog's in my kids ped's are proven tested box dogs. But that doesn't mean I own game dog's I just call them APBT's or bulldogs. Until they have proven themselves in the box they are just APBT's. Game is loosely thrown around and unless you are heavily involved in dog matching you will never truly understand what game really is. I have heard old stories of dog men breaking down in tears and being spooked by what they saw these dogs do in the box. Gameness is at the heart of a real bulldog.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

SuthernStyles said:


> I dont believe gameness has a say in what the breed is, more of what the dog is about


Appearance standards say what the dogs look like, bloodlines show whats in the history of the dog and what those other dogs have accomplished, genetics show what the breed should be for.. Temperament, health, etc.

All of this goes in to what the breed is, this breed was bred for fighting and you can't have that without gameness. It is a part of the equation that sums up what this breed is about.


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## dsgdlover (Feb 21, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> The standard and giant Schnauzers have been around much longer than these mini's have. As to whether they have mixed them with something else i have no idea, i don't really care enough about Schnauzers to really look into it.
> 
> All these macro dogs, 2lbs Chi's, poodles, etc would you consider those purebred? I don't.
> 
> ...


too funny. thanks for the info


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Ay yi yi I just had this debate for the 253tgjkrnfdkfsip time on the bully board for 2 days straight this weekend. I'll comment later my freakin head hurts.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

*The Official UKC Standard *

The American Pit Bull Terrier has always been capable of doing a wide variety of jobs so exaggerations or faults should be penalized in proportion to how much they interfere with the dog's versatility.









*The Official ADBA Standard *

Above all, the American Pit Bull Terrier should appear to be an all around athlete. His body is called upon for speed, power, agility and stamina. He must be balanced in all directions. Too much of one thing, robs him of another. In his ideal form, he is a thing of beauty. 









*The Official AKC Standard*
The American Staffordshire Terrier should give the impression of great strength for his size, a well put-together dog, muscular, but agile and graceful, keenly alive to his surroundings. He should be stocky, not long-legged or racy in outline. His courage is proverbial.










*The Official ABKC Standard*
The American Bully should give the impression of great strength for its size. Compact to medium/large size dog with a muscular body and blocky head. Powerful in it's movement and should display effortless movement at the same time. Keenly alive and alert to its surroundings. The American Bully should have the appearance of heavy bone structure with a Bully build and look.


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## dsgdlover (Feb 21, 2011)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> *The Official UKC Standard *
> 
> The American Pit Bull Terrier has always been capable of doing a wide variety of jobs so exaggerations or faults should be penalized in proportion to how much they interfere with the dog's versatility.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok Lauren those first 2 are nice dog's and they are conditioned to the registry standards. But both of those dog's are show bred dogs. I guess some might consider them APBT's (not me) but it's a matter of opinion and I wanted to show some dogs that I consider not only ADBA conditioned dog's but dog's who are bred down from game dogs not show dogs.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Now those dog's I posted are some fantastic looking bulldogs this is what a performance bred dog should look like. Nothing wrong with the dog's you posted however they are UKC show dog's and some would call them pitterstaff's based on their peds. So I wanted to show some ADBA bulldogs that are bred for performance.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> Appearance standards say what the dogs look like, bloodlines show whats in the history of the dog and what those other dogs have accomplished, genetics show what the breed should be for.. Temperament, health, etc.
> 
> All of this goes in to what the breed is, this breed was bred for fighting and you can't have that without gameness. It is a part of the equation that sums up what this breed is about.


Right, but you cant say its not a pure APBT just bc it lacks game. Cause you can take 2 of the best game dogs and breed them and their not be a game dog in the litter. Its genetic makeup would say its a APBT. BC its parents are of course. I know and I believe everyone knows they are fighting dogs. But not all have it. Thats all I was sayin


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## cityofsin (Apr 29, 2011)

I found this dog on an re pedigree i really think theres some mixing here imo


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## dsgdlover (Feb 21, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Now those dog's I posted are some fantastic looking bulldogs this is what a working bred dog should look like. Nothing wrong with the dog's you posted but they are UKC show dog's some would call them pitterstaff's based on their peds LOL. I wanted to show some ADBA bulldogs.


This is a dog that is game, and ukc reg, that has what yall would call a classic bully build, but to me pitbull and size I like to see, but again what i prefer. not a fan of the skinny dog, nor am i a fan of the xl and extreme


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

moonshine?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

dsgdlover said:


> This is a dog that is game, and ukc reg, that has what yall would call a classic bully build, but to me pitbull and size I like to see, but again what i prefer. not a fan of the skinny dog, nor am i a fan of the xl and extreme


A game dog according to who? Do you have a pedigree on this dog? Those dog's I posted are not skinny those are conditioned ripped bulldogs. You know what it takes to get a dog in that kind of shape?? Those dog's didn't get in the shape they are in from the owner's starving them! Those people put in lot's of real work with their dogs and it shows.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Please tell me who this dog you call game has been matched against how many win's/looses? I want to see a pedigree and the name of the dog would be helpful. The dog's I posted may not be your cup of tea but they are the standard for the breed that's what working APBT's were bred to be. Athletes are not large and bulky they are lean and muscles are well defined. You may very well like a bigger dog in which case you prefer staff's or bullies but the dogs I posted are real APBT's performance bred dogs. Those dogs pictured above are not Staff's or Bullies or pitter staff's either.


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## dsgdlover (Feb 21, 2011)

Sadie said:


> A game dog according to who? Do you have a pedigree on this dog? Those dog's I posted are not skinny those are conditioned ripped bulldogs.


1st She's not my dog, 2nd since 1976 its been against the law in the U.S. to prove who's dog is really game, 3rd I'm very sorry for what 'bully' :flush: on your shoe,but whenever im on the forum reading something in the bullies sec you and a small handful others always,always have something negitive to say just because of what you prefer which is thiner rib look!

DOG FIGHTING IS ILEGAL here in us, i have NO W/L ratio for you, WTF


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LMAO!!!!!!!! You obviously don't know what a conditioned dog is supposed to look like because if you actually look at the pictures again there are no ribs showing just muscles. If that dog isn't game you shouldn't have said it was .. If you don't know the meaning of game when referring to these dogs is I suggest you not use the term! Game in this breed can only mean one thing a dog who has been matched. Your the one who stated that dog you posted was game not me. Furthermore I am very well aware of the laws in this country I also don't go around calling my dog's game LMFAO!!!!!!!! I have said nothing negative about bullies I am pointing out what real APBT's are. If you like your big bullies that's fine just call them what they are because they are not APBT's and anyone who know's these breeds know's the difference.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

dsgdlover said:


> *This is a dog that is game*, and ukc reg, that has what yall would call a classic bully build, but to me pitbull and size I like to see, but again what i prefer. not a fan of the skinny dog, nor am i a fan of the xl and extreme


Per your own words. I can tell you now that dog is not an APBT nor is it game. You don't call APBT's game unless they have been fought and proven game just an FYI since you obviously don't know any better.


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## dsgdlover (Feb 21, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Per your own words. I can tell you now that dog is not an APBT nor is it game. You don't call APBT's game unless they have been fought and proven game just an FYI since you obviously don't know any better.[/QUOTE
> 
> well sadie, if you want to take a look at hog hunting with pitbulls on youtube you might see her bloodline, it was showed to me,but i will get in contact to get the exact kennel and dont try to sugar coat any of your way with terms you used the words game and showed a dog hanging from a rope all i did was show you the same thing forgot to add bred from, so you can miss me with your suggestions!! Hog hunting is a game sport last i was told.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

dsgdlover said:


> Sadie said:
> 
> 
> > Per your own words. I can tell you now that dog is not an APBT nor is it game. You don't call APBT's game unless they have been fought and proven game just an FYI since you obviously don't know any better.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

And for the rest of the folks who don't understand the difference between skinny and conditioned.... Here you go

This dog is skinny weak no muscle mass, emaciated back bone completely exposed hip bones showing all ribs showing when only the back 2 should show.










This is a well conditioned APBT lean, muscular, well defined, athlete. Healthy and a beautiful example for this breed. I also know this dog's owner and let me tell you this dog is freaking awesome.










Now before you call a dog skinny you should know the difference hopefully this visual should help those who don't understand skinny vs a well cared for healthy conditioned animal.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Ok Lauren those first 2 are nice dog's and they are conditioned to the registry standards. But both of those dog's are show bred dogs. I guess some might consider them APBT's (not me) but it's a matter of opinion and I wanted to show some dogs that I consider not only ADBA conditioned dog's but dog's who are bred down from game dogs not show dogs.


:goodpost: :clap: American Pit Bull Terriers are working dogs.. "the original bulldog the best of all known working dogs was thrown into the [] forever dubbed "pit bull" .. those dogs are perfect examples of ADBA conformation guidelines and even while they are hanging in the air in go mode or just chillin and those dogs are bred for work upstairs first and the body conformation come along with it  :goodpost:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Shes Got Heart said:


> I see the argument a lot that a dog is not an APBT unless it was tested in the box. So what does that make the ones that are purebred and papered but not tested? They still have the same DNA as the dogs they came from. Just because they are not proven. I am referring to dogs that do fit the APBT standard.


Ok I am going to tell you what my Mentor has told me and you can take it for what it's worth .. I have also spoken to dog men on a serious level about this topic. My mentor told me not to refer to these dog's as game bred. He said they are either APBT's bulldogs or Game dog's there is no game bred and told me to get that out of my mind and stop using the term "game bred" he said only people who don't know what they are taking about use that term LOL. He said that game dog's are dog's who have actually been tested and proven themselves in the box. I asked him well if my dog's are not game bred dog's what are they and I showed him my dog's ped's? He said they are APBT's Tara!!! My dog's are performance bred dog's which come down from game dog's. I have been taught that if they are not performance bred dog's they are not bulldogs. Performance bred is another way of referring to a dog who was bred from real working animals proven stock AKA (game dogs). Now people have the right to disagree with me. But my Mentor is the real deal. He has raised and bred fighting dog's for a great portion of his life. I know show breeder's get offended by these debates. But the APBT was not a show dog never has been that's why we have the staff's. The APBT has and will always be a Gladiator everything else is just everything else. Now those of us who enjoy the freedom we have will continue to obey the laws by not participating in dog matching.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Ok I am going to tell you what my Mentor has told me and you can take it for what it's worth .. I have also spoken to dog men on a serious level about this topic. My mentor told me not to refer to these dog's as game bred. He said they are either APBT's bulldogs or Game dog's there is no game bred and told me to get that out of my mind and stop using the word LOL. He said that game dog's are dog's who have actually been tested and proven themselves in the box. I asked him well if my dog's are not game bred dog's what are they and I showed him my dog's ped's? He said they are APBT's Tara!!! My dog's are performance bred dog's which come down from game dog's. I have been taught that if they are not performance bred dog's they are not bulldogs. Performance bred is another way of referring to a dog who was bred from real working animals proven stock AKA (game dogs). Now people have the right to disagree with me. But my Mentor is the real deal. He has raised and bred fighting dog's for a great portion of his life. I know show breeder's get offended by these debates. But the APBT was not a show dog never has been that's why we have the staff's. The APBT has and will always be a Gladiator everything else is just everything else. Now those of us who enjoy the freedom we have will continue to obey the laws by not participating in dog matching.


again... :goodpost:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I call em bulldogs cause thats what they are... (L.Colby)

When asked why he calls them bulldogs.. by Richard Stratton who calls them all bandogs .. 

unless proven then the men both agreed they were American Pit Bull Terriers.. 

Knowledge is everything.. Gather real information on the breed, gather the APBT library. 

Game bred is a relatively new term like pittie is a real new term .. any way. Game bred is refering to dogs from consistant proven stock on both sides all the way back from no less than 2nd gen on both sides.. consistant winners stacked ... that is what is game bred again a slang term that become comon word usage.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

FH my mentor hates that term he has told me he better not hear of me using it in any discussion about these dogs lmao!! I always used it in the past. But when he explained to me why it shouldn't be used it made sense. Either way he told me they are either game or they are not. And well we both know how that goes. LMAO!!!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I like that.. common sense... They are bulldogs, or bandogs ... unless proven game  or proven to be American Pit Bull Terriers.. IMO .. I agree for the most part with him except instead of game dogs they are APBTs.. cause I agree with Stratton and Colby that APBTs are dogs that have been proven game..  

Today we have a mass amount of bulldogs/bandogs registered as American Pit Bull Terriers but not proven to be.. LMAO


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks for adding your input in this thread. When someone says this dog is game I take that in a literal sense. LMAO!! I mean there is no other way to look at game in this breed. They either are game or they are not. And while jumping on a hog and watching a bulldog go to town on one is impressive and proves hunting skill and prey drive it is nothing compared to watching these dog's go to work in the box. Also the common misconception on conditioned dogs being skinny I would rather have a well conditioned animal than a fat dog any day. Big is not better in this breed. The smaller they are the harder they fight


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Since dog fighting is illegal in this country how do game dog people test your game bred dogs these days without putting them in the "box" as you say. Sorry, but I hate that term being used on here. Kind of makes me wonder if some are into the blood sport still. No offense to anyone in particular just curious and want to learn  I know some hog hunt with there APBT....is that the more legal way of testing for game these days?


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

BNB it's still done. Just further underground and harder to penetrate.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Umm no one is testing dog's here all game bred means is a dog who stem's from actual fighting dog's. In order for a dog to be considered a game dog it has to be a fighting dog who has proven game in the box. When someone call's their dog's game bred they are not saying they fight their dog's what they are saying is they own dog's bred from actual fighting dogs. Game dog and Game Bred are 2 totally different things.

Ok Here is one of my dog's pedigree's

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [328954] :: A'S BOGART

Now look at all the titles in my dog's ped you see the ROM, 9xw, 2xw ect ect?? Those are fighting titles. CH and GR CH ect so on and so fourth. The xw= won matches xl= lost matches. The number represents how many matches were won or lost. A CH fighting dog is a dog who has won 3+ matches. A GR CH fighting dog is a dog who has won 5 + matches. ROM is a game dog who has produced several CH and GR CH's fighting dogs.

My dog's are descendants of game dog's but my dog's haven't actual been fought. Game bred is a dog who descends from fighting dogs.

This is a show dog pedigree you see there are no fighting dog's in this dog's pedigree because the dog is a show bred dog the CH and GRCH titles in this dog's pedigree come from the show ring not the box.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [140311] :: 'PR' VICTORINO REBEL'S RED ACE


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## cityofsin (Apr 29, 2011)

CaLi 2 B.C. said:


> moonshine?


 yes moonshine


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

When I was at the Kellyville ADBA show there was a guy there with some RE Bullies. One of the dogs had the same color markings as Helena, but looked more like an APBT than a bully. So I started talking to the guy and he said the dog was RE. I was surprised. Anyway he was there with a guy who had some real Ambullies, first time for me to actually see some in person (other than some on the streets that I suspected to be bullies) Anyway, so the other guy was walking his blue dog around the grounds. And he saw my boyfriend outside and started talking to him. The guy asked my boyfriend "Have you ever seen that animals cops show on AP" My boyfriend said yeah. The guy was like "Thats what these dogs look like, starved, I like my dogs with some meat on them" My boyfriend said "dude you are at an ADBA show!" And that was the end of that. 

Until the guy came back our way later when we were watching the CH class. And he comes back again talking to another guy we were hanging out with at the show. And then he says his dog has never pulled but they were going to put him on the weight pull track! Really? lol What a dumbie.... Anyway shortly after there was an announcement made that you are not supposed to be walking dogs around the show UNLESS they are about to go into the class or they are about to go on the weight pull track... and dogs are not to be left unattended tied up outside. hahaha


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

didnt DW himself admit he mixed breeds a few times and when ukc threatened to pull him .. change his toon ?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

There is an article where he talks about mixing breeds I am sure someone will dig it up


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

dsgdlover said:


> This is a dog that is game,


I think you are confusing game with drive or prey driven?


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

cityofsin said:


> I found this dog on an re pedigree i really think theres some mixing here imo


Some people say their dogs are what they aint to sale. Or maybe papers were hung


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## cityofsin (Apr 29, 2011)

SuthernStyles said:


> Some people say their dogs are what they aint to sale. Or maybe papers were hung


true ive seen it alot i had an unpaperd apbt and a guy told me hed paper my dog for 400 bucks so i could breed him with his bitch. i was like im not spending 400 when i could probably find a pure bred for that price paperd and all


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Umm no one is testing dog's here all game bred means is a dog who stem's from actual fighting dog's. In order for a dog to be considered a game dog it has to be a fighting dog who has proven game in the box. When someone call's their dog's game bred they are not saying they fight their dog's what they are saying is they own dog's bred from actual fighting dogs. Game dog and Game Bred are 2 totally different things.
> 
> Ok Here is one of my dog's pedigree's
> 
> ...


So that thread I posted about the ROM titles and hidden messages does hold some truth lol


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Umm no one is testing dog's here all game bred means is a dog who stem's from actual fighting dog's. In order for a dog to be considered a game dog it has to be a fighting dog who has proven game in the box. When someone call's their dog's game bred they are not saying they fight their dog's what they are saying is they own dog's bred from actual fighting dogs. Game dog and Game Bred are 2 totally different things.
> 
> Ok Here is one of my dog's pedigree's
> 
> ...


:goodpost:
Heres a bulldog of mine in which I didnt not breed but acquired him for what he is and what he has.. a good lil bulldog
a "game bred" dog which is a misguided term according the OP in reference..
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [129856] :: J.B.'S BOZZ HOG

a proven APBT or simply a game dog.
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [27387] :: HAMMONDS & CASTRO'S SCUTTLE AKA (ALLIGATOR II) (4XW)

another.. this is an OFRN that is pure wilders and proven.. 
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [92957] :: WILDERS *AKA* CH WESTOVER'S OFRN proven are becoming hard to find; they are purest traits of wind and fire; if you find one 

searching peds I found a couple of names that we all know.. LOL did they soil the OFRN or help it ??? LOL ONLINE PEDIGREES :: OFFSPRING :: WILDER'S RED PATCH :: [6396]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=157494

Heres a good producer of game dogs http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=108242

I was just looking at OFRN dogs... because the name is so popular everyone thinks they have one 

heres a dog of well placed puzzle pieces.. also proven
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=357657

often immitated rarely dupilcated .. The American Pit Bull Terrier. .. .

They're all bulldogs or bandogs unless proven then they are American Pit Bull Terriers (according to Stratton/Colby all American Pit Bull Terriers are proven game {mind you when these men were alive the dogs had to have 2 wins to be registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier) , I have to agree with that statement it holds the most water.

The United States doesnt rule the laws of every nation. Its not illegal for people to match their dogs in more places than there are places you cannot match your dogs.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Man all this stuff is out of hand today with the APBT. You cant trust anyone anymore it seems. Breeders are always attacking and calling out other breeders. This breed has been so abused and thrown around that we dont even know for sure that the breed we want is TRUE anymore by some standards. Papers are hung, breeding from outside, etc. So we have to have a lot of trust in a breeder that it is what its supposed to be. But I bet you more than you think maybe even someone you trust does something to the lineage to give it that "edge" over the next dog/breeders. Now Im not saying there aint people who do all the leg work and do it right. I dunno all I know is it has gotten stupid. This breed brings envy and greed =. People see money signs in these dogs and it has crushed the breed. Transformed it and even brought on a whole new f'ed up bully breed. And people call them APBT. Half these people have a different dog in mind when they think of a pitbull. Its not the small ADBA dog's its more like the UKC type. We are amazed and admire the dog with a block head, wide chest, and cuts in every muscle on its body. Growing up the I guess it was the UKC types I had in my mind too. Now I own a RE and that dog is what I had in mind growing up. Just watching this dog amazes me. I also have the smaller type. She is mostly Falins blood. People dont even think she is full blooded. Ya know why? Because they have this RE dog type build in their mind. Now its a fad to have a blue, short english bulldog looking pit. Its almost like the true pit will slowly fade away. I love both my dogs, but I admire the RE build. He is not overdone. He is what to me a pit should look like. He is maybe 2 inches taller than my Falin. I guess what Im trying to say is whether you got a bully, or whatever is we all want a pitbull at heart and thats how we see them even if people call them bullies. I like a good sized head nice chest and muscles etc. The smaller dogs like my Falin remind me of Bart simpsons dog lol And its all because we have been misguided and uneducated. Im on one rambling sorry if this makes no sense lol


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

SuthernStyles said:


> Man all this stuff is out of hand today with the APBT. You cant trust anyone anymore it seems. Breeders are always attacking and calling out other breeders. This breed has been so abused and thrown around that we dont even know for sure that the breed we want is TRUE anymore by some standards. Papers are hung, breeding from outside, etc. So we have to have a lot of trust in a breeder that it is what its supposed to be. But I bet you more than you think maybe even someone you trust does something to the lineage to give it that "edge" over the next dog/breeders. Now Im not saying there aint people who do all the leg work and do it right. I dunno all I know is it has gotten stupid. This breed brings envy and greed =. People see money signs in these dogs and it has crushed the breed. Transformed it and even brought on a whole new f'ed up bully breed. And people call them APBT. Half these people have a different dog in mind when they think of a pitbull. Its not the small ADBA dog's its more like the UKC type. We are amazed and admire the dog with a block head, wide chest, and cuts in every muscle on its body. Growing up the I guess it was the UKC types I had in my mind too. Now I own a RE and that dog is what I had in mind growing up. Just watching this dog amazes me. I also have the smaller type. She is mostly Falins blood. People dont even think she is full blooded. Ya know why? Because they have this RE dog type build in their mind. Now its a fad to have a blue, short english bulldog looking pit. Its almost like the true pit will slowly fade away. I love both my dogs, but I admire the RE build. He is not overdone. He is what to me a pit should look like. He is maybe 2 inches taller than my Falin. I guess what Im trying to say is whether you got a bully, or whatever is we all want a pitbull at heart and thats how we see them even if people call them bullies. I like a good sized head nice chest and muscles etc. The smaller dogs like my Falin remind me of Bart simpsons dog lol And its all because we have been misguided and uneducated. Im on one rambling sorry if this makes no sense lol


There are many true, honest breeders out there that have very well bred APBT's that fit the standards that should be considered.

The problem is too many people believe you can find these breeders online through websites and in the papers. From my experience the real breeders sticking true for the dogs are the ones you literally have to hunt down and in order to get a dog you generally have to know someone or develop a keen interest and understanding through that breeder. Many breeders i know will literally give pups away to people they know or charge minimal fees ($100 for instance) to buyers that again, either know or have gone through the latter.

I would NEVER buy a pup from a breeder that has a website even though i know that not all are horrible breeders i just wouldn't trust it from everything ive seen. I would rather go to a dependable breeder without a website or advertisement knowing im getting as close to the real deal as possible.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Its our own responciblility to "emancipate ourselves from mental slavery" (B.Marley) 


I've been a student of APBTs, Bandogs, Bulldogs and game bred dogs for pushing 15 yrs I started with "The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier" Richard F. Stratton and quickly aquired the rest of his library along with Colby and every other book I could get my hands on.. Education is Knowledge and if Knowledge is illegal then the thought police are already here and everyone.. EVERYONE is guilty.. 


People ... think they want an APBT~ what they really want is a Bull Terrier .. 

:rofl:


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## cityofsin (Apr 29, 2011)

:goodpost:


Firehazard said:


> Its our own responciblility to "emancipate ourselves from mental slavery" (B.Marley)
> 
> I've been a student of APBTs, Bandogs, Bulldogs and game bred dogs for pushing 15 yrs I started with "The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier" Richard F. Stratton and quickly aquired the rest of his library along with Colby and every other book I could get my hands on.. Education is Knowledge and if Knowledge is illegal then the thought police are already here and everyone.. EVERYONE is guilty..
> 
> ...


http://www.gopitbull.com/images/smilies/goodpost.gif


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

Shes Got Heart said:


> I see the argument a lot that a dog is not an APBT unless it was tested in the box. So what does that make the ones that are purebred and papered but not tested? They still have the same DNA as the dogs they came from. Just because they are not proven. I am referring to dogs that do fit the APBT standard.


initially a dog had to be proven before it could even be registered as APBT. nowadays it aint quite so hard.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

rob32 said:


> initially a dog had to be proven before it could even be registered as APBT. nowadays it aint quite so hard.


Man where have you been? I've missed talking to you!:goodpost:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

rob32 said:


> *initially a dog had to be proven before it could even be registered as APBT. * nowadays it aint quite so hard.


Amen to that!:goodpost: Goes back to standard and purpose. It's good seeing you Rob!!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

KMdogs said:


> There are many true, honest breeders out there that have very well bred APBT's that fit the standards that should be considered.
> 
> The problem is too many people believe you can find these breeders online through websites and in the papers. From my experience the real breeders sticking true for the dogs are the ones you literally have to hunt down and in order to get a dog you generally have to know someone or develop a keen interest and understanding through that breeder. Many breeders i know will literally give pups away to people they know or charge minimal fees ($100 for instance) to buyers that again, either know or have gone through the latter.
> 
> *I would NEVER buy a pup from a breeder that has a website even though i know that not all are horrible breeders i just wouldn't trust it from everything ive seen. I would rather go to a dependable breeder without a website or advertisement knowing im getting as close to the real deal as possible.*


Yes sir:goodpost: Bogart's breeder does not advertise on a website I got my dog's through word of mouth and by association. I will only deal with people I know are breeding these dog's close to the real deal the best way to get them.


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## tribulliez91 (Oct 6, 2010)

But how does anyone know what they have, everyone is focused on paper hangin on bullys. Papers could have been hung on great game dogs. And alot of ppl call bullys mutts bull ALL dogs are mutts mixes of breeds were used to create most dogs. My dog is re but I believe its nothin but amstaff and apbt blood.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Paper's were hung on APBT's as well. But the breed has been around for hundreds of years some hung paper's and some didn't the APBT was never bred to be a designer breed if anything dog men hung paper's on dog matches but they were bred for consistency and performance. I can tell you this if a dog is bred tight and right you should be able to see certain trait's in your dog and your dog should be a direct representative of the past dog's in your dog's pedigree. That is what happen's with consistent selective breeding. If you have studied bloodlines and pedigree's haven't you ever been able to look at a dog and say that's a Lar-San bred dog or that's a Red-boy Or a Colby dog? There are plenty of scatter bred dog's that show no consistency of the dog's in their linage from both past and present dogs because the breeder was not breeding to the intended standard for that particular line. And then their are dog's who are bred tightly and you can see those trait's in the dog both past and present. Really you have to study pedigree's and what's behind your dog to do a visual comparison and one should also have hands on experience with different bloodlines as well to understand the different trait's each family of dog's carries. The blueprint's for the APBT have already been laid out for us by dog men those who are breeding consistent stock follow those blue prints. When breeder's start crossing a bunch of mess together that is when that consistency starts to fade from the dog's and it becomes apparent not only in the pedigree but in the dog's as well.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> All i really have to say is 1. RE, Gotti and any other American Bully bloodlines are not APBT. No matter how great they look like at the end of the day they are American Bullies. 2. You can not get pockets, xl, xxl, classic and standard bullies all from the same two breeds. Something else HAS to be mixed in theres too many extremes from all these bullies being created from an Amstaff/APBT. It doesnt work that way. Some will argue selective breeding some will also argue dwarfism but neither can explain this many extremes to the magnitude of which they are. I have seen pictures of bullies next to english bulldogs and the ONLY difference was the head appearance.


Fredericksburg.com - Come see our gentle 'bullies,' unfairly savaged by a currish editorial

"Come see our gentle 'bullies,' unfairly savaged by a currish editorial"

Date published: 10/6/2006

AS PRESIDENT of Razors Edge and one of the founders of the American Bully, I am appalled by your Oct. 3 editorial "Bully for the bulls?" Your statements are not only offensive but inaccurate.

The "Back 2 the Bullies" convention to be held tomorrow at the Fredericksburg Expo Center is not for the "celebration of the pit bull" as you allege; it is for public awareness of the American Bully. This is a new breed created more than 15 years ago, and it is a separate breed from the "pit bull."

*We blended different breeds together to obtain certain desired traits. The American pit bull terrier was one of the breeds whose lineage is in the background of this breed, but it is by no means the only breed behind it.
*
*Even the part of the lineage that is American pit bull terrier stems from United Kennel Club-registered conformation show dogs! There is also an American Kennel Club-registered show breed in the lineage of this breed called the American Staffordshire terrier. Some breeders even included some bulldog lineage into their breeding. This breed has been established for over 10 years now.*

The American Bully Kennel Club was created for the registry and promotion of this breed. These dogs have extremely mellow demeanors and were bred for the purpose of companionship. If you had researched the breed or the event, you might have learned more about what you were falsely commenting on.

We have been hosting these shows for more than four years now and have a great track record with major cities all over the United States. These events have all been a success, and people continue to request them in their areas. We have people flying in from all over the United States, and even confirmed guests from Japan, Italy, and the Philippines.

These events have been amazing for bringing all types of people together from all over the world--all races and all genders. The amount of public support has been overwhelming. For this area, the event is also helping the local economy. Three major hotels in this area are sold out, not to mention all the restaurants and pet stores that stand to gain business. Major pet stores, pet-feed companies, rescues, animal shelters, attorneys, and other organizations and individuals are backing and sponsoring this event.

To talk about this event in the context of young girls murdered by a serial killer is sick. How do you think the families of those children feel seeing that incident brought back up and being used in association with a dog show?

Then to talk about a sanctioned dog show in connection with a mauling by a pack of dogs running at large? The dogs that mauled Dorothy Sullivan weren't even pure pit bulls. But whatever breed they were, the tragedy has no correlation with this show. The poor woman who was mauled deserves more respect than to be brought into a commentary about a dog show. This entire editorial was plain sick.

At our event, the local animal control office maintains a booth with a donations box set up for its shelter. Also with booths are dog-rescue organizations that inform the public about all the dogs being put to sleep in shelters. Also at show we have a task force that seeks to bring to justice illegal dog fighters. We have a lady who runs programs in the low-income areas of major cities, and who helps underprivileged children through working with dogs.

We have five nonprofit organizations manning booths. As people from all over the world come to our event, we even have the local police department working there to ensure the safety of all patrons and participants.

At our event, nothing illegal is being promoted, permitted, or advertised. We have done no wrong at all. Our event simply seeks to certain promote a breed in a positive way.

Your editorial misinformed the public about the nature of "Back 2 the Bullies" and the breed it highlights.

DAVE WILSON of Spotsylvania County is president of Razor's Edge, the main company sponsoring tomorrow's Back 2 the Bullies convention.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
they're not purebred apbt.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Okay?? Not sure why you quoted me for that.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

sorry i was just adding to your point...


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> sorry i was just adding to your point...


Oh okay. lol I wasn't sure where that was going so i was a bit confused. :hammer:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Finally someone posted that up I should make that a stick. Dave admits to "blending breeds" there for not APBT's


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

making that a sticky makes me feel some what redemed from the other day :hammer: they are a great looking dogs though except for mr crawley he makes me cringe... that wide of a dog shouldnt have a thin head like that


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> Finally someone posted that up I should make that a stick. Dave admits to "blending breeds" there for not APBT's


Dave said "other breeders" mixed bulldog.He didnt say he did.


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> Fredericksburg.com - Come see our gentle 'bullies,' unfairly savaged by a currish editorial
> 
> "Come see our gentle 'bullies,' unfairly savaged by a currish editorial"
> 
> ...


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

CaLi 2 B.C. said:


> stonerreakinhavok said:
> 
> 
> > *We blended different breeds together to obtain certain desired traits. The American pit bull terrier was one of the breeds whose lineage is in the background of this breed, but it is by no means the only breed behind it.
> ...


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> CaLi 2 B.C. said:
> 
> 
> > we would include ones self
> ...


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## pittylove77 (Jun 3, 2011)

you know what,
i actually like bullys 
well at least some -___-
i have seen my share of good looking bullys but i have seen more grotesque ones for sure. i feel like when it comes to that breed people try to hard.
like why breed for "head" ? whenever i go on bully sites there is a picture of a dog and next to it how big its head is. or a guy holding a tape measure around its head. i guess i dont understand
My dads friend has a bully who i think is nice looking but it has breathing problems from bad breeding.

anyways you're dog is actually one of the good looking ones 
does he have any health issues that you know of? Congrats on the dog bud


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> CaLi 2 B.C. said:
> 
> 
> > we would include ones self
> ...


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## pittylove77 (Jun 3, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> Some people don't consider a dog that hasn't been proven in the box an APBT however that is opinion.
> 
> Not fighting a dog does not change its blood or breed anymore than fighting a dog proves its breed. Fighting is what created the APBT not how you tell if a dog is APBT. Fighting is for testing gameness not proving purity.....
> 
> However that is going to vary from opinion to opinion.


:goodpost:


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

yes but its still not an pure apbt by any means

the way he states that he used mutliple breeds to me leaves it open to more than just two breeds. but thats just me.

furhter more most people argue that am staffs and abpts are their own breeds. 

would you agree or disagree?


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> stonerreakinhavok said:
> 
> 
> > Yes but if you read further he states that the two breeds he was talking about was UKC APBT and AKC Amstaff. Later on he states that some breeders used bulldog blood. I believe that is what Cali is referring to.
> ...


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

dont get me wrong personally i love american bullies


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> yes but its still not an pure apbt by any means
> 
> the way he states that he used mutliple breeds to me leaves it open to more than just two breeds. but thats just me.
> 
> ...


I understand how what he said can be misinterpreted.IMO a true ADBA APBT of proven background and a AKC or UKC AST Are not the same breed anymore.Thats just me though


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> dont get me wrong personally i love american bullies


No were cool no hard feelings LOL this is a good friendly convo


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

American_Pit13 said:


> Some people don't consider a dog that hasn't been proven in the box an APBT however that is opinion.
> 
> *Not fighting a dog does not change its blood or breed anymore than fighting a dog proves its breed. *Fighting is what created the APBT not how you tell if a dog is APBT. Fighting is for testing gameness not proving purity.....
> 
> However that is going to vary from opinion to opinion.


I agree that the act of fighting doesn't actually prove an animals breed/bloodlines a pedigree is what proves what breed a dog is and what bloodline's the dog stems from. But when this breed first began we can't forget that in order for these dog's to even be registered as APBT's to begin with they had to have PROVEN themselves in the box (actually matched). So back then not every APBT bred could be registered as an APBT if it was not first proven to be game (fought). Most dog men I know consider dog's who have been tested and proven game-dogs. Untouched dog's bred down from game dogs or proven stock are just papered APBT's until proven otherwise. In other word's they were all cur's until proven otherwise and cur's were culled most of the time unless it was a cur who was able to produce winners.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> I agree that the act of fighting doesn't actually prove an animals breed/bloodlines a pedigree is what proves what breed a dog is and what bloodline's the dog stems from. But when this breed first began we can't forget that in order for these dog's to even be registered as APBT's to begin with they had to have PROVEN themselves in the box (actually matched). So back then not every APBT bred could be registered as an APBT if it was not first proven to be game (fought). Most dog men I know consider dog's who have been tested and proven game-dogs. Untouched dog's bred down from game dogs or proven stock are just papered APBT's until proven otherwise. In other word's they were all cur's until proven otherwise and cur's were culled most of the time unless it was a cur who was able to produce winners.


:goodpost: Agree'd. Generally speaking i consider Game Dogs to be tested/proven APBT's, Bulldogs i usually throw as a general term either with proven peds or working APBT's then of course you have your "Pet Bulls".

For me i have an old way of thinking (i guess due to how i was always taught) as to the APBT. I won't call a dog an APBT unless its either a game dog or Bulldog (with APBT bloodlines, of course) anything else is a untested Pet Bull or Cur. Show dogs with APBT bloodlines i have very strong opinions of which most probably would hate me for so i reserve discussing that topic.

AmBullies are way too scattered and all over the place which is why i never keep up with it the way many do.. I'd probably be more inclined to if there were more honest people out there in the Bully world with honest intentions.


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> I'd probably be more inclined to if there were more honest people out there in the Bully world with honest intentions.


That is the sad truthJust in the last few weeks even ive lost respect for many bully breeders that i thought were all good.All these backwards foot havin howdy doody bow legged dogs are literally turning me off on the breed.Even worse when the "Elite Studs" are put on these lepyrs just cause the have 2500 to pay the stud fee.SMDH im bouta curse better enter post now


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Cali I feel bad for the bully breeder's trying to do right by the bullies who are running an honest kennel operation. I know it must be hard for those few good breeder's being looked over by all the BS crap, lying breeder's out there and worse them being put up on a pedestal and praised for their BS within the bully community. I have come to try and give bully breeder's the benefit of the doubt because I have met some who do have good intentions and are putting fourth the effort to do right by the dogs.


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

Sadie said:


> being put up on a pedestal and praised for their BS within the bully community.


That right there is really what is holding the american bully back.Everybody has their lil' clicks where they overlook major faults on a dog just because their "fam" produced or bought it.It can have backwards duck feet and horns but if the "FAM" produced it ITS FIRE!!!! Even if in their mind the hate it and wouldnt feed it they act like its all gravy just to not be a "Hater"That mentality right there:flush:'s the breed down the toilet slowly but surely.There are some great programs left.. with that said i can only hope they stay going strong.Eventually the badly bred dogs will literally have to crawl back to some good clean bullys to at least keep them walking and not adapting flippers.LOL


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

ok honestly whats a good price on a bully from a legit breeder? i see it range from 1000 to 6000. in my opinion its kinda redonkulous yah know it doesnt really follow supply and demand. also you think am bully breeders would stray away from the apbt title and move to the am bully to try to create a bsl beater hype.


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

Dogs are cheap in the states right now.I know of kennels selling bullys for 500$ that i personally haven't seen or dealt with but im familiar with the blood.But if you want a pup off a CH ABKC dog or 2 it will be 2000-4000+


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> ok honestly whats a good price on a bully from a legit breeder? i see it range from 1000 to 6000. in my opinion its kinda redonkulous yah know it doesnt really follow supply and demand. also you think am bully breeders would stray away from the apbt title and move to the am bully to try to create a bsl beater hype.


Thats going to vary a great deal depending on experiences of others, i wouldn't trust an internet breeder, one that advertises online in various places that charge ridiculous amounts of money because they are in for profit.

I don't keep up with Bully pricing but for APBT's i would never pay more than $500 or so no matter whats in the dogs ped, how proven and no matter what the dogs have done. I've never paid more than $300 for a dog and i've never ran into any health problems and that was for really good dogs/what the breed should be. I would apply the same for any dog, Myles i paid under $200 for and hes an excellent dog.

It's all in who you know, there are really good breeders out there who will give dogs away to people they know just because they know what they are producing and would rather take the bite on the money knowing the dogs are in great homes vs. someone they are not familiar with coming and buying a pup.

For Bullies i would do the same, even though i have no interest in an AmBully there is no reason for people to be charing such amounts on them when there is nothing special about them that equals these $10,000 prices you see.

Its also all in the eye of the beholder, some will draw the line at $200, some $1000 and some even more than that what it boils down to is how much are you willing to spend on a dog thats properly bred, health tested, etc?

Also, show titles mean jack to me. I dont want a show dog and have zero interest in showing so for me a bunch of show titles in the ped doesn't equal a ____ amount increase. If it is to you than it is to you, theres really no wrong answer for how much is a good price on pups when in the end it boils down to how much your willing.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Im confused lol who on here was stating that bullys are true APBT's? i thought it was already known they are 2 different breeds that may share some lines wayyyy back in there foundatin dogs. Seems people trying to prove they arent APBT when they are already known they arent lol.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> Fredericksburg.com - Come see our gentle 'bullies,' unfairly savaged by a currish editorial
> 
> "Come see our gentle 'bullies,' unfairly savaged by a currish editorial"
> 
> ...


 WOW! So I wonder why he said what he said in my original post, or in the link of my original post of their official site?


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

SuthernStyles said:


> WOW! So I wonder why he said what he said in my original post, or in the link of my original post of their official site?


Dave said SOME breeders used bulldog and nobody denies that happened; however, in regards to the dogs bred in the 90s and the first American Bullies, I do not believe that bulldog or mastiff was mixed in. Those dogs were line bred and if any of those breeds had been used it would show. As for dogs being bred today it all depends on the individual breeder's ethics.


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