# Is this ''TOPNOTCH''



## jimxxx (Dec 5, 2013)

hello, i have found a ''interesting'' breeding what will take place middle 2014.
It's a very old ofrn line what i read on his website with famous names.

Such as 
Ch 3xw ROM Tudor Dibo 
Hemphill's Geronimo
Gr Ch 8xw ROM Ross's Red Devil (AKA Creed's Iron Dusty)
Ch 4xw ROM Wise's Maximillian
Cassius Clay
The stud dog is 37,5 % Maximillian

For the pedigree of studdog is, dame, or mom, look at Cassius Clay's great grandpa Iron Bear. Iron Bear's parents are Iron Spike and Iron Taffy. 

The studdogs mom, Iron Queen, is aslo directly from Iron Spike and Iron Taffy. Its the same blood on the "top half" of him as the "bottom half". 

The dame of this litter. 

Her father is from Crenshaw's Rascal, Crenshaw's Honeybunch, Sorrells, Garners, and Woods.

Her mother is a linebred mix of Sorrells CH Sailor, Garners CH Chinaman, Woods Snooty and Crenshaw's CH Rascal. Other famous American Pit Bull Terriers' in her pedigree are Sorrell's CH Bubba-Boe, CH Raisin, CH Joe Testament, STP, Hard Eyes, Raisin, Grand CH Roadblock, Sister, Shoshone, Crenshaw's Honeybunch. 

This breeding is in the USA middle 2014 and i'm very curious if this is something


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Somebody is pulling strings. 

CH titles didn't exist when those dogs were alive. (Dibo, Geronimo, Red Devil, Max)

Iron Queen was LONG LONG ago, so no way anyone can have a stud dog from her alive today. 

Scam.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Would sure like to see this website LOL


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

I'd like to see it too. Question though Geo is it possible since the Iron Queen dog is a Stud could it possibly be from frozen semen?


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Frozen semen has no bearing on this LOL! I think you might have misread the post. Iron Queen is supposedly the stud dog's DAM...as G said, not possible given the time that has elapsed.


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

No I didn't read it wrong I know little to nothing about OFRN I was asking a question for the education. I think you read my post wrong I was asking if the breeding the OP is talking about could be happening from Frozen semen off the dog that's off Iron Queen. I just know I do like what I see off OFRN but dont know much history.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I suppose I was assuming when OP used the term "stud dog" I thought that this dog was still alive by the way it was phrased. I do see where you're coming from now, but I still doubt what is being said. Confusing thread. However, the website to this breeding may clear everything up. Didn't mean to seem snippy in my response. I am an avid OFRN fan, and owner...as a matter of fact I have a lot of the blood that the OP is mentioning, and so does Goemon.


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

lots of dogs in there not ofrn (now that I finally figured out what that is) and that certainly isn't a knock! I had one red nosed dog that I remember, and that was butcher boy11. He was off Hooten's butcher boy, but bb11 never threw a red nose dog. I didn't know dibo was ofrn? Does ofrn have to have a line of al red noses? I remember when I first heard the term, but I'm not sure I know much yet. Butcher boy11 was a good dog and Hooten said Butcher boy was as well. Also, I wonder if any old family dogs of any sort exist. How far back do ya go? I'm searching for blood now but there's a lot of things in between me and what I'm looking for?


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

I think we need to wait for the OP to give the link to where she got this info.

Since we already have many threads on OFRN dogs I didn't even want to get started on this one, after seeing the nonsense in it all.

OP: when looking for a pup, people should forget about the dogs WAY back in the peds. 
A pup comes out like its grandparents and great grandparents. The quality of a pup is not to be judged by PAST dogs.

Rex, Dibo was heavy in OFRN blood even though he had a black nose. Heavy in Con Feeley dogs from Bruce's Jerry, i.e. Corvino's Gimp and Shorty. 
To carry the red nose either the sire or dam have to be red nose. 
If one is red and one black, pups can be of red or black nose in litter. 
Even two black nose dogs can throw a red nose if the blood is heavy.

As for the dogs mentioned by OP from the site, *nobody* owned a male from Cassius Clay and Iron Queen. 
Only frozen semen would be from a brother of Iron Queen.


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## jimxxx (Dec 5, 2013)

Well i don't know it's with frozen semen, but now when i read all the posts i think it is.(Could not find it on his website)

The breeding is Maynerd (sire) x Copper (dame)

I've send a PM to Goemon with the web address of the breeder so he can apply the info to the forum.(If it's realy topnotch or not)

All the names i put on my message where from the breeders website.(pedigrees)
(I tried to copy it to my PC and then to photobucket but it's not readable.)


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Goemon said:


> I think we need to wait for the OP to give the link to where she got this info.
> 
> Since we already have many threads on OFRN dogs I didn't even want to get started on this one, after seeing the nonsense in it all.
> 
> ...


So did those parents and grandparents get good because their grandparents were cur? Nah, I like pedigrees to start and then get the best I can from that line! That's why we still talkn about Dibo and his offspring. Me too, I agree on the so called ofrn, it aint nothing but a color. I was very weakly, I guess, trying to be fecicious about that color thang. If you just look at recent sires and dames we could breed to barnstormers, imo, of course we are both somewhat correct, its percentages of genetics and it gets weaker as you go back, but my point is those recent ancestors got their genes from something.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Goemon said:


> I think we need to wait for the OP to give the link to where she got this info.
> 
> Since we already have many threads on OFRN dogs I didn't even want to get started on this one, after seeing the nonsense in it all.
> 
> ...


To get to clear water, one must go to the source And the source is a fountain LOL!!!


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

jimxxx said:


> Well i don't know it's with frozen semen, but now when i read all the posts i think it is.(Could not find it on his website)
> 
> The breeding is Maynerd (sire) x Copper (dame)
> 
> ...


Yeah I got your PM, replied, but was logged out. Thanks for info.

From what I gather after reading that site, this is not a single breeder, but a group of breeders in Calif. 
They offer no OFRN bloodline, but are mostly scatter bred dogs from various places and owners. Not a family of dogs. 
As for the original post, they are going to use the frozen semen of Maynerd, a Red Devil dog. I know there was semen left off of him. 
So that alone would make this a good breeding as the RD dogs can even be bred to total curs and produce good dogs.

I did see widows peak dogs on there, as well as red nose dogs with black, both which disqualify the dogs from being OFRN.
They speak of Old Family Reds, which have been extinct for over 100 years.
The Old Family Reds were a fighting breed imported from Ireland. 
Bruce's Jerry was an original OFR. Bred to Fly of Panama came Corvino's Shorty and Gimp, which Dibo is heavy in.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

rex abernathy said:


> So did those parents and grandparents get good because their grandparents were cur? Nah, I like pedigrees to start and then get the best I can from that line! That's why we still talkn about Dibo and his offspring. Me too, I agree on the so called ofrn, it aint nothing but a color. I was very weakly, I guess, trying to be fecicious about that color thang. If you just look at recent sires and dames we could breed to barnstormers, imo, of course we are both somewhat correct, its percentages of genetics and it gets weaker as you go back, but my point is those recent ancestors got their genes from something.


I'm sure you have heard the line, "Good dogs are where you find them." When dogs are scatter bred and not tight line bred, the gene pool is large and not consistent from one generation to the next. Family breeding, however, closes the gene pool and you get the good with the bad. The trick here is proper culling. No family of dogs is so good they never need culling. Hence the saying, "Never buy dogs from one who breeds for a living." They won't cull what needs culled if they need the money. Quality over quantity is always the preferred way, from all I have learned.

Now, we can take dogs from the same gene pool of grandparents and give half to one guy, half to another, each in one part of the country. Even though they have the same blood, from the same source, in 20 years these breeders will have two separate bloodlines, each with their own separate characteristics.

There's a saying, "You better have faith in the girl you take to the dance, or you might be going home alone." I apply that, here, to family dogs. With them you know their gene pool and consistency. With a scatterbred dog, you never know. When all grandparents are of different blood, the way they turn out is anyone's guess. But with a well bred family of dogs, you pretty much know what you are getting. Keep the good, cull the bad, in order to improve.

There are still true OFRN dogs around. Maynerd is Red Devil, which was formed from three foundation dogs, and still continues to this day. Only in this case it is old blood from frozen semen. If the breeding happens then I'm sure some good pups will come out, as anything bred with Red Devil dogs has been known to be successful.

We have other posts about this, but hope what I said makes sense. As my signature says, we may all where watches, but we all believe our own. :thumbsup:


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

deleted to start another thread..


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Goemon said:


> I'm sure you have heard the line, "Good dogs are where you find them." When dogs are scatter bred and not tight line bred, the gene pool is large and not consistent from one generation to the next. Family breeding, however, closes the gene pool and you get the good with the bad. The trick here is proper culling. No family of dogs is so good they never need culling. Hence the saying, "Never buy dogs from one who breeds for a living." They won't cull what needs culled if they need the money. Quality over quantity is always the preferred way, from all I have learned.
> 
> Now, we can take dogs from the same gene pool of grandparents and give half to one guy, half to another, each in one part of the country. Even though they have the same blood, from the same source, in 20 years these breeders will have two separate bloodlines, each with their own separate characteristics.
> 
> ...


 I of course have heard, a good dog is where you find it, I just wrote it! I agree with most all you say. However we all have to do our own culling, but we best start with good stock. Also culling 2 dogs or even 3 dogs from a litter doesn't change the gene pool. And you can't cull puppies for the trait I like because you don't know which ones to cull! But, if you put them in the hands o f legitimate dog men hopefully they know how to breed and cull, at the right time and test. Still won't change the gene pool. Gameness is a multi layered genetic phenomenon! I just don't agree with all the bs about ofrn, its not a "bloodline" its a bs way some people use to sell dogs or attempt to elevate a dog. It's like saying a Carver dog, or a 
Colby dog. Study pedigrees and we all have to cross occasionally or we will be raising a bunch of deaf, white dogs!


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## jimxxx (Dec 5, 2013)

Hello folks

thanks for all the info.
I though that It was all good because of the bloodlines, also they won several prices.

They have had their red nose pit bull puppies on the cover of the ADBA Pit Bull Gazette.

So I was then thinking, ok these dogs (& Breeders ) looks very nice (also the bloodlines )
(Still have to learn a lot over the OFRN and APBT bloodlines, pedigrees )

That's why I choose this breeder(s)
My question is to you all, did I make a good decision, I mean if you look what's he breeding with enz enz

I'm glad to be a member of this forum so much info, still reading and learning.
And of course the feedback from you all.

I've find also info on this site http://www.villaliberty.org/information.html
Lots of info and story's 
Chapter bloodlines http://www.fiapbt.net/ingles17.html

Thanks to all


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

rex abernathy said:


> I of course have heard, a good dog is where you find it, I just wrote it! I agree with most all you say. However we all have to do our own culling, but we best start with good stock. Also culling 2 dogs or even 3 dogs from a litter doesn't change the gene pool. And you can't cull puppies for the trait I like because you don't know which ones to cull! But, if you put them in the hands o f legitimate dog men hopefully they know how to breed and cull, at the right time and test. Still won't change the gene pool. Gameness is a multi layered genetic phenomenon! I just don't agree with all the bs about ofrn, its not a "bloodline" its a bs way some people use to sell dogs or attempt to elevate a dog. It's like saying a Carver dog, or a
> Colby dog. Study pedigrees and we all have to cross occasionally or we will be raising a bunch of deaf, white dogs!


:cheers:

Anytime you hear somebody say the OFRN dogs are a bloodline, you know they are full of it. 
It is a *strain* of ApBT. With numerous bloodlines.

Almost missed it. There is still blood that has not been crossed out there. They are not white, and not deaf.


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Goemon said:


> :cheers:
> 
> Anytime you hear somebody say the OFRN dogs are a bloodline, you know they are full of it.
> It is a *strain* of ApBT. With numerous bloodlines.
> ...


lol, me too, almost missed it! Exactly! Maurice was the best of the 70's, so every one wanted to claim a Carver dog. In the 1800's as dogs were coming over from the "old" countries so they said "old" family red nose or whatever, and what it was, was just a color! The old families went by the wayside as gameness was sought, thank goodness, so now or then, in the 70's we had black dogs throwing reds, blacks, and brindles, with any combination thereof, why? GAMENESS, that ole slippery devil! Randall and I wanted to start a club called BLACKS, simply because of the high % of successful blacks! 
but, that's disingenuous, because the truth is, well bred dogs are not based on colors, noses, shades, blah blah blah, ONLY GAMENESS! I know you after a few posts, you agree!


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

rex abernathy said:


> So did those parents and grandparents get good because their grandparents were cur? Nah, I like pedigrees to start and then get the best I can from that line! That's why we still talkn about Dibo and his offspring. Me too, I agree on the so called ofrn, it aint nothing but a color. I was very weakly, I guess, trying to be fecicious about that color thang. If you just look at recent sires and dames we could breed to barnstormers, imo, of course we are both somewhat correct, its percentages of genetics and it gets weaker as you go back, but my point is those recent ancestors got their genes from something.


<--- scratches head at the confusion, and says "huh"
OFRN is not like "Colby" or "Carver" its a strain that can exist in either..


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> <--- scratches head at the confusion, and says "huh"
> OFRN is not like "Colby" or "Carver" its a strain that can exist in either..


So, what's the point? It is just talk.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

just stating a point,, you seem well enough educated in the few posts ive read of yours,.
OFRN is a strain inside many "bloodlines"

besides,, all we do online is talk..


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> just stating a point,, you seem well enough educated in the few posts ive read of yours,.
> OFRN is a strain inside many "bloodlines"
> 
> besides,, all we do online is talk..


LOL, you win! But I didn't quit!


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