# Spay or wait until matured?



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

This is my first female dog I have owned. I have had several males over the years that were neutered at some point in there life some at 6 months and some at 3 or older. I have read many articles on the positive and negative sides of spaying and neutering before maturity. One of the articles I have read was www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter and the other was *naiaonline.org*
I am considering letting my dog have one heat before spaying her. I am very responsible with my animals and would never let the oops litter happen. Anyways, I am on the fence about this so any opinions would be great!


----------



## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Why wait for one heat before spaying? Just curious to know the reasoning.

If you think you can contain her, then it's a matter of opinion. Your opinion.


----------



## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

Spaying before her first heat can drastically cut down her risk over contracting certain forms of cancer. My opinion, is to spay ASAP.


----------



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Spay


----------



## Coiler (Nov 12, 2010)

All of my dogs are left intact until they mature, personally in my opinion the benefits of waiting out weigh the negatives. As long as you can properly contain the female in heat i'd say wait.


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Coiler...what age do you spay/neuter then. Most say to wait until 14 months if possible. I may let her have one heat and then spay her. She also has papers which gives me the option to show her. I may consider it which is another reason I would have to wait. I have seen huge differences in dogs who were fixed at 6 months and dogs who were allowed to mature properly before spay/neuter.


----------



## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

If you are planning on doing any kind of confirmation with her, you must keep her intact, if not and you have no plans on that then I would get her spayed, my white boy and my Penny (RIP) were speutered before they were 5 months old and I wouldn't change it for the world and wouldn't have waited. Good Luck


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

The chances of mamary cancer increase exponentially after every estrus....spay.
Males are different and I would say wait if it were a male.


----------



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

WAIT TO SPAY!! The reason is you want them to fully mature before you Spay them and if you are a responsible owner and will not let your dog get bred then you should wait. Many Doctors will tell you to spay early and it lowers cancer risks but now new research shows that is not always the case. I use to be behind s/n at an early age but after doing research on it, it is best to wait. I don't S/N any of my animals anymore unless there is a medical reason or behavior reason. But you can wait till they are mature like 18-24 months before you do it. God gave us hormones for a reason, to help us grow and mature and when you take that away before the process is done it can have negative effects on the body. Do your research like you have and decide what is best for you and your dog.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> WAIT TO SPAY!! The reason is you want them to fully mature before you Spay them and if you are a responsible owner and will not let your dog get bred then you should wait. Many Doctors will tell you to spay early and it lowers cancer risks but now new research shows that is not always the case. I use to be behind s/n at an early age but after doing research on it, it is best to wait. I don't S/N any of my animals anymore unless there is a medical reason or behavior reason. But you can wait till they are mature like 18-24 months before you do it. God gave us hormones for a reason, to help us grow and mature and when you take that away before the process is done it can have negative effects on the body. Do your research like you have and decide what is best for you and your dog.


Females always have the hormones they require because they don't only make hormones with the ovaries. A male needs the testosterone for muscles and head type, but a female doesn't need it to develop.
If you can provide some research to support your position I would like to read it.


----------



## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

i say spay before the first heat, if it where a male i would say wait untill 3 years of age but with a female SPAY SPAY SPAY!!!


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

..... sorry double post


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Why though?? Just because they go into heat? Seems a bit sexist to me. Leave a male intact until it's full grown but spay the bitch and be done with it. I am taking everything into consideration but really.....has anyone read the articles on early S/N before just saying spay the females. Just as the males fill out nice being left intact the females must fill out better as well. Bella is the first female dog I have owned yes, but I have owned many male dogs over the years and have seen the difference in the males growth when neutered at 6 months and full grown. I may decide to show her so as of right now she will stay intact. However, she will be spayed at some point down the road weather it be sooner or later. I still have time to seriously think about what I want to do before her first heat. Thanks all


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

If you have your pet spayed/neutered before or @6mos. most of the time they have not came into season yet or in males case haven't dropped. If you take care of it then, your dog will live longer and will be more pup like longer as the hormones don't set in as they normally would. By the time the sterilized dog is 5 or 6 is usually when it becomes A DOG so to speak and you will really notice dominance issues with other dogs that don't live there, even mounting in dominance the other house dogs, just part of it.

IMO if you are going to sterilize then do it as young as possible, its been my experience that spayed/neutered animals under that time frame usually maintain an athletic look longer without being worked, than those dogs spayed/neutered after they come into season or have dropped.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

It has nothing to do with sexism....do the research on mammary tumors and pyometra.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

The only reasons to sterilize are to control temperment and population, so everything that is sterilized has hormone confusion and for most people they think spay/neuter will calm their dog down, LOL it will when done at the proper time. I have had several dogs sterilized at 2 yrs or later and still are work horses or are retired and fat on someones porch.. LOL The dogs I've contracted to be spayed/neutered are doing outstanding and as healthy and athletic as ever.. That just been my experience and to tell you the truth I do not promote spay and neuter as much as accountability... So because I don't see many accountable people is for the main reason I do promote sterilization. I dont expect to get much more than 10-12 yrs out of my dogs because they're all workers; working dogs generally live 8-10 and 10-12 in good environment and 12-15 if spayed/neutered at a young age. My dogs are workers, and IMO all dogs should be, No Oxygen theives allowed!!. LOL


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Spaying a female will prevent mammary tumors and eliminate any chance of pyometra.


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

I know about pyometra and mammary cancers. I have owned males dogs but still know about females and dogs in general. I was a vet tech and a professional groomer for years. I have seen what the mammary cancers and tumors look and feel like first hand. I have also seen a female with pyometra. But, I also know the fear vets put into the dog owners who bring there pups into be examined and get the whole speech on spaying and neutering at 6 months. Not to sound like a snob  but I am an experienced dog owner. Since I started my career back in the days there has since been updated information on the negative side affects of pre-mature S/N so this is why I am asking opinions of others who maybe informed of the info. I have always been an advocate for S/N especially with men who seem to have the hardest time taking there dogs "man-hood" away. Like I said Bella maybe shown in UKC so she will need to stay intact for that. I have ALOT to think about


----------



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Spaying a female will prevent mammary tumors and eliminate any chance of pyometra.


Not allowing a female to come into season is the whole reason not to spay early they need those hormones and development to mature properly. Spaying prevents that from ever happen. There is a ton of great info in the articles in the OP please read up on them. Yes I have seen mammary cancer but it is not as common as the vets would like you to think. I know thousands of intact bitches in the show world that NEVER develop cancer that is AKC, UKC, and ADBA. Again the risks are minimal! I was a vet tech for many years and the first thing they vets would say is they want to s/n the pets and get all the shots done before the client never comes back. Its about keeping business not about what it the best for a dog. You ever hear a vet say no lets wait on that, HECK no they want your money. There are good vets but not as many as there should be. Now Pyo is a big risk with intact females and yes spaying will bring that risk to zero. In healthy dogs I would not worry about it but know the signs to look for. It is always in the back of my mind and I know other breeders who have had it and the dogs lived because they knew what it was right away. I also know some bitches who had a closed Pyo and did not make it.

There is also a risk of loss of bladder control with spays especially at an early age. There are risks on both sides you as an owner have to decide what is best for you.


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Thanks Performance kennels  I'm glad you understand where I am coming from


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I don't know about everyone else experience with pet dogs trying to keep them alive for twenty years; but I know that a working dog APBT, ALK huskies, or whatever that live hard and fast and spaying and neutering only does one or two things for such a working dog lifestyle. 9yrs old is OLD for alot of these dogs and usually health defects from old age start at 7, so if I get a dog with tumor that age or later depending on the dog will depend on removal and given it a couple more years. Removing tumors sometimes causes them to matastasize into other organs and even their bone marrow, so then again euthanization is the most humane option JMO. I have a couple of pet dogs and they will not be kept alive just to sooth my emotions. I have a schipperke spayed, she'll live about 11 more years, I know this and am prepared for it. I have Hoagie not fixed APBT and he'll live 12 as he has not had the hard life style of the working dogs because he is a foundation for my new kennel. My outside working dogs get right at 8 on average, I obtained a KBD and they have the same live hard fast life span, so alot of spay and neuter is hoshposh unless one needs to curve attitude which is why you spay early to curve the hormones, playing God by sterilization anyway so.> when chosing the lesser of two evils, its still choosing evil.. Thats the only reason to spay or neuter and is for curving the hormones which changes the attitude of the animal and yes they are a puppy longer so to speak on many levels; or to curve the ability to reproduce because of lack of accountablity. Im not saying anyone is wrong or right, I am saying this is what I have experienced in 15 yrs of working dogs and wolves combined 10 of which I was an active vet tech and behavior specialist. I know of the new tests and studies, but the reality is that the dogs just don't live long enough to worry about it unless they are strictly pets.. which most people want to sterilize their dog for behavior reasons and unless spayed early, that wont account for much. 

In Tibet the TM was neutered just shy of 2 to induce hormone which made them bigger than intact males, giving legendary dogs a 190-200lb size. Changing hormones .. is how and why for the sterilization!!


----------



## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

Firehazard said:


> I don't know about everyone else experience with pet dogs trying to keep them alive for twenty years; but I know that a working dog APBT, ALK huskies, or whatever that live hard and fast and spaying and neutering only does one or two things for such a working dog lifestyle. 9yrs old is OLD for alot of these dogs and usually health defects from old age start at 7, so if I get a dog with tumor that age or later depending on the dog will depend on removal and given it a couple more years. Removing tumors sometimes causes them to matastasize into other organs and even their bone marrow, so then again euthanization is the most humane option JMO. I have a couple of pet dogs and they will not be kept alive just to sooth my emotions. I have a schipperke spayed, she'll live about 11 more years, I know this and am prepared for it. I have Hoagie not fixed APBT and he'll live 12 as he has not had the hard life style of the working dogs because he is a foundation for my new kennel. My outside working dogs get right at 8 on average, I obtained a KBD and they have the same live hard fast life span, so alot of spay and neuter is hoshposh unless one needs to curve attitude which is why you spay early to curve the hormones, playing God by sterilization anyway so.> when chosing the lesser of two evils, its still choosing evil.. Thats the only reason to spay or neuter and is for curving the hormones which changes the attitude of the animal and yes they are a puppy longer so to speak on many levels; or to curve the ability to reproduce because of lack of accountablity. Im not saying anyone is wrong or right, I am saying this is what I have experienced in 15 yrs of working dogs and wolves combined 10 of which I was an active vet tech and behavior specialist. I know of the new tests and studies, but the reality is that the dogs just don't live long enough to worry about it unless they are strictly pets.. which most people want to sterilize their dog for behavior reasons and unless spayed early, that wont account for much.
> 
> In Tibet the TM was neutered just shy of 2 to induce hormone which made them bigger than intact males, giving legendary dogs a 190-200lb size. Changing hormones .. is how and why for the sterilization!!


Lots of info. Its very interesting. Do you think 8 yrs. is young to die? I do. I know its the "lifestyle" in some ways (you wrote). Cypress is over a decade old and still hangs from here rope (and she is my foundation female). Genes play a lot I think. Smaller dogs tend to live longer than large dogs (some what breed specific).


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

I have seen more intact males have aggression issues by the time they hit 2 or 3 years of age. I have mainly seen dog to dog aggression with intact males not so much human aggression but it does happen. I had a male intact Cattle Dog who was highly aggressive to people and other dogs but usually just dog aggression with other full males. Last study I read about the statistics of dog bites 74% were caused by un-fixed males. Intact males seem to have more aggression issues when left intact from what I've seen JMO but I'm sure some others may agree. My girl will only have the one heat and will be spayed a month or two after her cycle so technically she will still be a pup. Like I said I may show but that is a big decision I have to make. In this breed (APBT) I see more dogs that are intact then fixed. Here in Boston as with alot of other states the APBT or bully breeds are in abundance in our shelters. So sad but there is so much irresponsible ownership amongst this breed it is PATHETIC!!


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Not for a pet North Cal,  Chain dogs, yard dogs, game bred apbts and true working huskies up north and the working laika are accompanied by hard working bear hounds and cat hounds in that they just live hard and fast.. When they start to age they AGE and age fast.. because the lifestyle is demanding but the same dog as a pet live a good 15 as I said.. Lucky [] dogs were taken care of hang around a decade or so, cause they were catered and kept well, just as prize bear dogs and huskies do.. BUT working dogs in the truest sense are extremely lucky to live anything past 10.

Hooch lived from jan 2000 to april of 2010, he would have lived about 8 more months but I had him put to sleep because he was an extreme game dog with 2 big boars under his belt countless coyotes and bobcats, feral dogs I dont know a mt lion, and then retired at 7 lived til ten,, never was kenneled or chained, although crate trained it was left with the door open his whole life unless we had alot family or kids over. That was my dog, he went to the vet clinic with me everyday and the SPCA too, He would grab and drop it on command he was well trained and a great family dog.. My kids pummeled him and he loved it.. was K9 trained, obiedience and therpy cert, and would catch anything.. Tamed a bull that had my landlord cornerd, chucked that 4wh33ler like it wasnt nuttin and hooch hit that bull and the landlord that hated pits all of a sudden love hooch and said he was the best dog ever, LOL i bet he thought he was at that point. ANYWAY he was taken care of like a prize jewell and he was a work HORSE, I got 10 great yrs he aged fast in 09 he started really gettin old man thin and got a tumor on his foot got it removed he lived for a good while as our good ol house dog and in 10 he started getting lumps from inside ripcage, yep tumors in the lungs he still would hang, and jump and hammered down until his dying day. I knew how long he was gonna live, it was very sad for me, I dont trust one person more than that dead dog, but I knew what it was.. I knew he would be lucky to see 11.

My point is statistics are there from experience recorded and cataloged and well only "luck" beats the stats.. Every old timer that saw hooch at 3 or 4 said Id be lucky to get 10 yrs out of a dog like that, some dogs live hard and fast..

Its been my experience that service dogs are the same way about a third are retired into good homes and live long lives, and when I say service I dont mean labs and goldens trained for blind, or as drug dogs for schools, or as simple therapy only dogs.. Hard working labs are the same way hard and fast.

So to me, unless one is preventing from breeding which is why I sterilize pups before they leave my yard, and for pets to have a more managable attitude and a longer life spay/neuter. I have one pet dog, schipperke and she has her purpose too, as I stated, shes a worker too, but I didnt want pups from her, and they are gnarly lil dogs so it was good for the kids sake

THis is what I know working dogs, and thats what I know, I gave Hooch as a comparison cause I ignored the stats against all my knowledge and stats proved to be very accurate.. SO as is how Tim I hope I answered your question. Its all about the life of the dog and the life of the dog.. My aunt and my grandma and my cousins all drive themselves insane and everyone else too keeping there 19yrs old poodles and what not, LOL tons of money all so they can salvage their own self imposed empathies. Im doing psych clincal research labs this semester and pet ownership has become an obsessive epidempic, from pet hording to being a hypercondriac about pets health and behavior of their own pets and everyone elses too.. LOL Dogs are tools first, the companionship is a plus..

Sterilization is good if you want to look at whats good for you and your pet in the situation, its bad if your from the standpoint of working dogs because working dog folks, well we like to see the dog at it best, fixing a male dog late in life after already HA isnt going to have any affect. To curve that it has to be done young enough you manipulate the hormones. You can make animal bigger as I explained by sterilizing them at a certain growth stage, and overweight as well, all depends on the dog and the timing, and WHY you want to sterilize the animal.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

someones had to much java.. LOL sorry also in LAB so my mind is like putting all kinds of puzzle pieces where they fit, hahahaha java java java java javja java java java java


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

WOW Firehazard LOL!! Lay off the Kona Coffee!! Anyways, I read the whole post you just wrote and even though it's a little hard for me to accept I respect it. You use your dogs for "working" purposes and I can see why they live such short lives. Not many people in this day and age use a dog for the purpose it was bred for. Very interesting read 

Question?????? Does allowing a bitch to have one heat cycle affect there personality much from your experience?


----------



## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

Firehazard said:


> Not for a pet North Cal,  Chain dogs, yard dogs, game bred apbts and true working huskies up north and the working laika are accompanied by hard working bear hounds and cat hounds in that they just live hard and fast.. When they start to age they AGE and age fast.. because the lifestyle is demanding but the same dog as a pet live a good 15 as I said.. Lucky [] dogs were taken care of hang around a decade or so, cause they were catered and kept well, just as prize bear dogs and huskies do.. BUT working dogs in the truest sense are extremely lucky to live anything past 10.
> 
> Hooch lived from jan 2000 to april of 2010, he would have lived about 8 more months but I had him put to sleep because he was an extreme game dog with 2 big boars under his belt countless coyotes and bobcats, feral dogs I dont know a mt lion, and then retired at 7 lived til ten,, never was kenneled or chained, although crate trained it was left with the door open his whole life unless we had alot family or kids over. That was my dog, he went to the vet clinic with me everyday and the SPCA too, He would grab and drop it on command he was well trained and a great family dog.. My kids pummeled him and he loved it.. was K9 trained, obiedience and therpy cert, and would catch anything.. Tamed a bull that had my landlord cornerd, chucked that 4wh33ler like it wasnt nuttin and hooch hit that bull and the landlord that hated pits all of a sudden love hooch and said he was the best dog ever, LOL i bet he thought he was at that point. ANYWAY he was taken care of like a prize jewell and he was a work HORSE, I got 10 great yrs he aged fast in 09 he started really gettin old man thin and got a tumor on his foot got it removed he lived for a good while as our good ol house dog and in 10 he started getting lumps from inside ripcage, yep tumors in the lungs he still would hang, and jump and hammered down until his dying day. I knew how long he was gonna live, it was very sad for me, I dont trust one person more than that dead dog, but I knew what it was.. I knew he would be lucky to see 11.
> 
> ...


Cool. 
That makes scene. I am surprised I made it past 18 myself (already used up about 4/5 lives by then haha).
Cypress would spend every day working if she could. That dog would jump through burning hoops for a toy. Her off spring handled a Bull (she would love it). She is still the most on guard (second to Little -little cypress). They have treed bear, chased Mt Lion, etc.

Side Note
A guy down the rd fixed his Cattle dog. Now he lost his drive. Opps


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Yes I would like to highlite that even when Im elderly I will have working dogs, and it is then that I will have the most HA dogs I've ever wanted to own. I have recently brought up bandogs but have a connection to black wolf dogs averaging 130lbs that are 30yrs+ of written ped'd and those type dogs will run my land  as well as the reminance of what ever game dog I have left at that time to sit by my side as a fully trained machine.. 

My great grand planned his entire life and death almost to the T. No sense in bein unprepaired.. Retired from WWII and Korea. Im somewhat the same but a lil more hippy.


----------



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> WOW Firehazard LOL!! Lay off the Kona Coffee!! Anyways, I read the whole post you just wrote and even though it's a little hard for me to accept I respect it. You use your dogs for "working" purposes and I can see why they live such short lives. Not many people in this day and age use a dog for the purpose it was bred for. Very interesting read
> 
> Question?????? Does allowing a bitch to have one heat cycle affect there personality much from your experience?


With bitches I have not seen any personality changes with spaying but that is just my experience.

I have working dogs but they are not on chain sets up and ,average life span is 13 years. It depends on what type of work I guess, hunting dogs I can see having a shorter life span. I have a few really old dogs at 11 and 13 and they act like puppies still. Genetics has a lot to do with it I think. I have lost several dogs to cancer and one to seizures at an early age and another one at 9 years old to a kidney infection.


----------

