# Can we find the truth about what we feed?



## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

I see many discussions about cheaper foods like Purina versus Orijen or EVO or TOTW and others and people are adamant on both sides so I am curious about trying to find some facts, some REAL facts! 
The problem is that there are so many animal nutritionists and veterinarians out there that are funded by some manufacturers that it makes it almost impossible to find peer reviewed scientific studies printed in well respected publications.

I was going to contact via email, the assistant professor of canine nutrition at the well respected UC Davis medical center here in CA as they are renowned for their facility and are probably only second to Texas A&M as far as the best veterinarian medicine schools go, but I saw something that bothered me. 
This assistant professor's biography is fairly impressive until I see this on her list of Professional Experience: 


> Hill's Fellow in Clinical Nutrition, Department of Molecular Biosciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, 6/97-12/99.


When I see the word, "Hill's" I immediately think this person is payed by Hill's to say what Hill's wants them to say and that makes me think I will not get the truth from someone like this. So where do we go to get real, unbiased, scientific, documented proof of what dog foods are best and what are lower grade? It is so hard to know who is being payed by special interest groups or huge companies to say what they want them to say that it makes it very hard for those of us who do not have a PhD in canine nutrition to find some truth out there. 
What do you all think?


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

I think all vets get money in some way from the brands they carry..


When I want to ask my vet about food. I just print the ingredients. Not the name of the brand or anything and bring that in. She tried to push Royal Canine on me and I asked her to compare my ingredients to the RC and if the RC was better I would buy it. She looked and said that I was right. She is now more honest with me because she knows I will believe her crap..LMAO. I think once they know that "you" know what your talking about they don't push it anymore.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Well I would start looking at the dog foods website to see what their ethics are like and also think about what wolves eat.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Here is TOTW website break down of ingredients and what they are and what they do

Taste of the Wild : Products : Ingredients


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

I have seen dogs live a long time and be happy healthy fun loving dogs on old roy so i think your dog food should be some thing that is nutrionaly complete and your dog likes it that all.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> I have seen dogs live a long time and be happy healthy fun loving dogs on old roy so i think your dog food should be some thing that is nutrionaly complete and your dog likes it that all.


Well this is what I am talking about. If the cheap foods somehow allow dogs to live long lives then are we wasting our money on the more expensive premium foods? This is what I want to know.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> Well I would start looking at the dog foods website to see what their ethics are like and also think about what wolves eat.


Understandable but I think it may go beyond what wolves eat. I don't think that animals in the wild necessarily eat a more healthy diet than animals as pets as carbohydrates and other ingredients may actually be better for dogs even though by nature they are carnivores. This is a very complex subject and nutrition in animals as well as in humans is still in it's infancy as we know very little about what is best.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Our dog Brutus has grown up on mostly Beneful and other cheap store brands of food. He is now 9 years old and has benign growths all over his body. I couldn't know for sure but I am willing to bet that if we'd known from the beginning about what we were feeding and chose a better feed he would be a far cry healthier than he is now. But that's just my thoughts on the matter. 

Have you seen the documentary "Supersize Me"? Sure you can exist on nothing but junk, but for how long and at what cost?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

It reminds me of smokers who justify their habit by talking about someone they knew who lived to be 100 smoking 5 packs a day. Meh. Have nothing more to add. Just wanted to chuck out one more resource that I enjoy.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

My grand parents have a kennel and they raise poodles for show. and they have some old dogs that are very healthy and they use ol roy. some of there dogs live to be 17 so i think it doesn't matter.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

you can use suplement tablets to give them any thing they aren't getting from their food and suplements cost less than the more expensive food in the long run like a doggy multi viamin.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Hey, can we really believe everything we learn about our own food?


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> Hey, can we really believe everything we learn about our own food?


that is a good point i guess if you eat veggies and organic meats you are doing ok i eat alot of what we raise on the farm here. and my dogs get alot meat from the animals we make them a dog bread out of protein that we get from bones and fat and conective tissues. but thats a treat for them the usualy eat diamond.:goodpost:


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

True. We grow what we can. Don't have any livestock though. It's a good plan. I only have to feed one dog so she's getting Innova. Can't hurt.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Innova is good because they have quality controls that surpass what the dog food regulations call for. Wolves in the wild do get some vegetables and carbs from the stomach contents of their pray. So they don't need much. 

When my dalmatian died at 6 years old from bloody diarrhea, quit eating and drinking.. the vet blamed it on the cheap food. And same thing for my cat that died from bladder stones. And my cat who is still alive got bladder stones from his cat food. So he has to be on a prescription diet.


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## TrudiMyPitt (Jul 12, 2009)

I feed my dogs Diamond high energy.


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## TrudiMyPitt (Jul 12, 2009)

my vet said Diamond is just as good as the next dog food. she said all you need to do is look for food that is nutritionaly complete. She is always trying to sell me her vitamins that she stocks. does not prescribe them so it makes me think she is just trying to make an extra buck.Iuse nuvet vitamins.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

TrudiMyPitt said:


> my vet said Diamond is just as good as the next dog food. she said all you need to do is look for food that is nutritionaly complete.


Every vet has something or other to say so this is why I want some real answers not opinions. The majority of vets by the way, know little about nutrition just like MD's for people. They are only required to study basic nutrition in school and then it is up to them whether they decide to pursue further study or not. No offense to your vet but saying what you posted above proves my point. I am not saying that Diamond is not a fairly decent food but to say it is "just as good as the next dog food" implies that all foods are pretty much the same and I disagree from a nutritional standpoint.


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

Proud Marine Dad said:


> Every vet has something or other to say so this is why I want some real answers not opinions. The majority of vets by the way, know little about nutrition just like MD's for people. They are only required to study basic nutrition in school and then it is up to them whether they decide to pursue further study or not. No offense to your vet but saying what you posted above proves my point. I am not saying that Diamond is not a fairly decent food but to say it is "just as good as the next dog food" implies that all foods are pretty much the same and I disagree from a nutritional standpoint.


There are holistic vets that specialize in nutrition. I think if you want real facts, that would be your best bet. But I'm sure just like a human nutritionist there will be varying opinions even among experts. I think all we can do is provide the best food possible, and be on the lookout for problems. When my grandmother was born, her mother went to the hospital for tuberculosis very soon after, and because they were very poor immigrants, they could not afford formula. My great great grandmother helped care for the children, and gave my grandmother bottles filled with weak coffee and a bit of milk to fill her stomach. Somehow my grandmother managed to survive, and lived to 89 years old, but my guess is that that is not a normal outcome from a situation like that. She also had 2 sibblings that died during that time from sickness brought on by unpasteurized milk, so I assume the same could have happened to any of the kids in her family, but 4 out of 7 lived to very old ages. I'm sure you can feed a litter of pups identical food, for their entire lives and have a wide spectrum of varying results.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

FloorCandy said:


> There are holistic vets that specialize in nutrition. I think if you want real facts, that would be your best bet. But I'm sure just like a human nutritionist there will be varying opinions even among experts. I think all we can do is provide the best food possible, and be on the lookout for problems. When my grandmother was born, her mother went to the hospital for tuberculosis very soon after, and because they were very poor immigrants, they could not afford formula. My great great grandmother helped care for the children, and gave my grandmother bottles filled with weak coffee and a bit of milk to fill her stomach. Somehow my grandmother managed to survive, and lived to 89 years old, but my guess is that that is not a normal outcome from a situation like that. She also had 2 sibblings that died during that time from sickness brought on by unpasteurized milk, so I assume the same could have happened to any of the kids in her family, but 4 out of 7 lived to very old ages. I'm sure you can feed a litter of pups identical food, for their entire lives and have a wide spectrum of varying results.


:goodpost: Thanks FloorCandy.


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## BullyForUs (Jul 18, 2009)

There is as much money to be made off hyping up the masses to be terrified of manufactured pet food as there is in selling and making manufactured pet food.

Right now there is a HUGE hype about how horrid all manufactured foods are, and you can bet your buns that a LOT of folks are jumping on that bandwagon and are ready to tell those worried about it .... anythingggggggggg they want to hear to get them to spend their bucks on whatever they are selling.

Not saying there isn't a reason to look deeper and examine things, just saying there are folks at the other end of the spectrum ready to scam and tell you anything you want to hear (i.e our food or way of feeding is better because ______) and happy to take every cent you will give them and they have NO ISSUE at terrifying you into feeling that you are actually killing and harming your beloved family member.

Just something to keep in mind when looking into diets.

That being said, there ARE horrible foods out there, like Ol' Roy.

JMO.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

BullyForUs said:


> That being said, there ARE horrible foods out there, like Ol' Roy.
> 
> JMO.


I agree and while I don't want to offend you, I would say the Purina you are feeding isn't much better than Ol' Roy and it only received one star from the pet food rating website.


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## BullyForUs (Jul 18, 2009)

That's cool. And no offense taken.

And I disagree with your opinion. I will explain why.

While I applaud you for having your own opinion, personally ... I don't base my opinions off a website that I have NO way of knowing how their editorial staff is chosen, what their levels of expertise are in determining actual nutritional content if at all, if they even know a thing about canine nutrition on a scientific level, and a bunch of other reasons I could think of about why I'd never blindly follow what any website told me was "fact".

That site right now, is likely making them some decent cash on an affiliate level, and that alone, makes me distrust it as I see it as a cash cow. :shrug:

For all *I* know they are totally feeding off the hype - and getting paid to endorse certain foods ... all I have to say that they are NOT - is their word, which I didn't even see given anywhere on their site. And even if they HAD - I wouldn't 100% believe their assertions that their word is good - just cuz they said so. lol.

From their site:
The ratings given and comments made about the foods assessed on this site and ingredients listed *are the opinion of the Editors, who are a small team of volunteers each with a long standing interest in dog nutrition*.

Wow. Their MAIN credentials here is that they have a "long standing interest in dog nutrition".

Sorry but for me, that isn't enough to make it fly for me. Maybe that is enough for you. Maybe if they had degrees backing their opinion, or some science backing it, or SOMETHING other than just volunteers that have a long standing interest in dog nutrition, I'd be a little more moved - but as it stands, people can make a lot of stuff sound good while they are selling you down the river. Maybe you haven't seen that happen online much, but I sure as heck have.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet is one of my biggest mantras - and it holds for this site too. I have NO IDEA if there is money being exchanged behind closed doors to promote this or that. I've been online a long long time, and I've seen more than my fair share of official looking sites touting this or that only to come find out years later - it was just a money making enterprise.

As a result, I tend to be a little cautious when citing any website - because really - I could throw together a website that said Ol' Roy was the best food in the world and give reviews on this or that ... all it is really .. is OPINION.

So while you might feel my food is a poor quality one, my feeling and opinion is .... that you are basing that opinion off third party information off a website rather than based off your personal experience or any personal expertise in canine nutrition. No offense intended.

I myself, do not blindly follow websites or what I read on the internet - I do base my opinion off veterinarians that I trust and canine nutritionists that I trust, and my fantastic breeder who exclusively feeds that same food after trying all the hyped up "newest bestest foods or feeding fads" and found that the ONLY one that didn't result in some health or digestive or appearance issue was what I feed Toby.

Considering her dogs have been some of the top showing dogs in UKC for many years, I'm just gonna go with her expertise, my vets expansive knowledge, my canine nutritionist buddy instead of some faceless website that for all I know is taking money to promote foods over the other foods, and have no real medical or nutritional knowledge outside of a "long standing interest".

So while you might not agree it is a high quality food, I am more than happy to civilly and pleasantly agree to disagree with you on that. 

In any case, my opinion on what dog food I choose to feed my dog aside (since that was not the topic of this thread and so thus not what I was commenting on) ... I think that my post in *this* thread still stands on it's own merit, despite any post that I made in other threads - as any other post was for a different topic entirely.

I feel that my post stands as it is, and that there is a great deal of commonsense and wisdom behind it.



BullyForUs said:


> There is as much money to be made off hyping up the masses to be terrified of manufactured pet food as there is in selling and making manufactured pet food.
> 
> Right now there is a HUGE hype about how horrid all manufactured foods are, and you can bet your buns that a LOT of folks are jumping on that bandwagon and are ready to tell those worried about it .... anythingggggggggg they want to hear to get them to spend their bucks on whatever they are selling.
> 
> ...


But I freely admit it is JMO. And it is worth every cent that you paid for it. LOL!


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

BullyForUs said:


> That's cool. And no offense taken.
> 
> And I disagree with your opinion. I will explain why.
> 
> While I applaud you for having your own opinion, personally ... I don't base my opinions off a website that I have NO way of knowing how their editorial staff is chosen, what their levels of expertise are in determining actual nutritional content if at all, if they even know a thing about canine nutrition on a scientific level, and a bunch of other reasons I could think of about why I'd never blindly follow what any website told me was "fact".


As I stated in another thread I am not basing the reviews of that site as my resource, I am going by the ingredients of the food and even a basic understanding of a canine's anatomy tells you that what is in most of these low quality dog foods is not beneficial to the dog. A dog is a carnivore and as such it does not need corn gluten, brewer's rice and other ingredients that basically do nothing for the dog and that is where my beef lies with those type of foods. On top of that there are dog food stores now such as Pet Food Express here that will not sell the low quality foods because they feel that those foods are not beneficial to the dog. I am sure they are missing out on a lot of money by doing that as companies like Purina have lots of big advertising to sell their product.
This is the same reason Innova was started as the owners felt the food on the market was of low quality. You think the higher rated foods are hype? Go to Innova's site and use their comparison link and look at the ingredients of Innova adult small bites kibble compared to what you are feeding.

You question that site because there are no PhD's? How would that make it any more truthful? Hill's has PhD's and they will tell you that Science Diet is the best kibble which is BS. They are dog owners and for all you know they may be extrememly knowledgable and yet you question them and insinuate that they may have a vested interest and are getting paid somehow to endorse foods. They would have to have a lot of people endorsing them then as there are hundreds of foods on there from 4-6 star rating. Read the "About" section of that site here: 
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/about.html

I see no reason to doubt them.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

BullyForUs,

Why don't we reason together on this and see if we can find some facts? I like a good argument but not a quarrel as that gets nowhere. 

So the premise is.......You have a beautiful dog that looks healthy, seems to have good muscle mass and has a good coat and yet biologically speaking, eats a dog food that has little meat and is mainly carbohydrates, and very low grade carbs at that, so it should not be something that would cause a dog to look so well. 
So, why does your dog look so good? Are genetics the key player here and diet is not so much of a role in the picture? These are the things I want to know because if a food that costs 1/2 of what I am paying for Innova does just as well then I am paying too much for dog food. :hammer:

I am wondering if genetics is indeed the key as I feel it is in humans without a doubt. The bodybuilders of the 60's like Atlas, Reeves and others use to work out and then eat cheeseburgers, fries and chocolate shakes for their diet and yet they looked fantastic. Could it be that dogs are born with a genetic predisposition to be lean and muscular without a diet that canines normally eat? I wish I was younger and could go to a school like Texas A&M so that I could study canine nutrition and find the answers I am looking for.


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## BmoreTrue (Jun 19, 2009)

its just scary how low standards are on animal food. If the standards are so low you can bve sure there are companies exploiting that.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

discovery dirty jobs did a show were they made dog food and showed how its done its freakin gross they take dead rotting cows and boil them down and well you should watch it it was nasty to nasty to talk about.


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## My_Bullys_Keeper (Jul 22, 2009)

you are right the standards of dog food are super low. imo, i think my dogs should eat just as good as we do. i feed my dogs exclusive, the main ingredient is real chicken none of that by-product garbage. i also have them on a raw food diet, they really like that. i've heard so many bad things about dog food brands that you buy in regular pet and grocery stores. i have done lots of research on how to keep my babies healthy. lol


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

My_Bullys_Keeper said:


> i think my dogs should eat just as good as we do.


I want my dog to eat better than I do. :rofl:


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## BullyForUs (Jul 18, 2009)

I disagree that the food is a bad choice and I base that off people that I trust that have gone to school for this and have told me that it is fine.

And for the record, I am not quarreling. I am telling you why I do not and will not agree with you, and why your sources mean squat to me and why I don't think citing them as a reference adds any weight to your claims.

That's not an argument, it's a statement of fact about why I am not going to agree wit you and why I think your sources are meaningless.

The fact is, that site is an OPINION. even they say it is. Your feelings about my food is your OPINION.

It's not fact, it's just what you think. Which is *fine*. Think what you want.

I've spoken to many canine nutritionists and weirdly enough - they say it's a _FINE_ food. And yes, I actually do have access to some of the finest nutritionists, heck I work next to UC Davis, our town is literally CRAWLING with vets LOL, and my job is in the veterinary to some degree. Sooo .... let's see, people that have gone to school and made canine nutrition their job that I know personally and respect their years of knowledge as opposed to some dude on some dog forum spouting off a source with no credentials as an expert opinion as to how food rates, and stating it is fact .... yeahhhh no offense, but it's a no brainer that I'm going to trust folks who I _know_ they they know what they are talking about as opposed to a stranger on the internet.

I personally do not feel you are qualified to say what is a bad diet and what isn't, nor do I think you have that basic nutritional knowledge. No offense, but that is the truth of it, I just don't think you have the knowledge or expertise to say one thing or the other, is pretty much the bottom line from my POV. :shrug:

Don't mistake my bluntness for aggression. I am just putting as plainly as I can that if the only reference you are going to pull is sites like that - then it is pointless to have this discussion and you just might as well hop on the bandwagon and agree to disagree with me like I am with you.

And also for the record, before I posted my last post, I read every page - including the About page. And yeah - still not impressed, sorry but yes, I *do* require references and credentials, as I am not a sheep to follow blindly just because it's packaged right.

You might feel okay to drink their Kool-aid because the website says it's "Happy Jesus Juice", but I am NOT drinking the Kool-aid until I know what went in it. LOL! Just who I am, not judging you, just saying why it's not something I would do.

No hard feelings. Just you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this topic and I frankly don't think you have the same expertise as those that have told me, to my face, that my food is choice is an excellent choice, and *do* have the scholarly credentials to back it up.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

And if you don't research dog foods and what dogs need how do you know what's "nutritionally complete"? Because the bag says it on the front? The bag of Dollar General dog food says that! And a lot of those cheap brands, including things like alpo have colored dyes in the food that have been banned for human consumption for human use. So why make dog food colorful??


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

My dog does eat better than I do! lol


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## BullyForUs (Jul 18, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> And if you don't research dog foods and what dogs need how do you know what's "nutritionally complete"? Because the bag says it on the front? The bag of Dollar General dog food says that! And a lot of those cheap brands, including things like alpo have colored dyes in the food that have been banned for human consumption for human use. So why make dog food colorful??


Disclaimer: I am not sure if the above post was directed at me or not ... so if it was not,then I apologize as it appeared it was directed at me.

Now for my reply:

Where exactly did I say that I didn't research dog foods? I do not recall saying that - and in fact I think my posts said quite the opposite.

Not only did I do my own research, I went to multiple canine nutritionists and veterinarians and got their opinions. I listened to my breeder as well, who has decades of experience as well as being a vet technician.

So how I know what is nutritionally complete is because I had multiple veterinarians and canine nutritionists that I know personally and trust .... assure me that the food I am feeding is a good food.

Now I am not saying that would be enough for anyone else reading my posts to base their opinions off of, because I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, and that would be third party information as well. After all, because I know the folks is why their medical opinions hold a lot of weight for me. I am saying it because that is what helped me form MY opinions. I do not presume that anyone will choose to feed their dogs based off anything I would have to add to this line of conversation.

But to say or imply I didn't research would not be true.

Dog food, no matter who is making it ... is ALL about making money - have no doubt. Every single company making food is thinking that there is a niche for them that will make enough money to pay their salaries and hopefully a little more, if not a LOT more.

And they will spin their foods and products in every way that they can to entice us that hold the wallets, either with colors, or feel-good, warm-fuzzy statements, smear campaigns, holier than thou approaches, etc.... just the way it is, IMO.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

BullyForUs said:


> I've spoken to many canine nutritionists and weirdly enough - they say it's a _FINE_ food. And yes, I actually do have access to some of the finest nutritionists, heck I work next to UC Davis, our town is literally CRAWLING with vets LOL, and my job is in the veterinary to some degree. Sooo .... let's see, people that have gone to school and made canine nutrition their job that I know personally and respect their years of knowledge as opposed to some dude on some dog forum spouting off a source with no credentials as an expert opinion as to how food rates, and stating it is fact .... yeahhhh no offense, but it's a no brainer that I'm going to trust folks who I _know_ they they know what they are talking about as opposed to a stranger on the internet.


You mean those people that were paid by Hills? :rofl:
Yes, there is an unbiased group there.

Would you do me a favor since you live in vet town? Ask these vet nutritionists how corn gluten and brewer's rice are the main ingredients in a food for a carnivore. Also ask them how the body assimilates them. I am curious since I am not as smart as them and all and I don't have a PhD or DVM plaque on my wall.

There must be some experts out there that are not being told what to say by Purina and Hills and I hope to find some.

I wonder if Texas A&M is better or have they also fallen to the "say what we want or else your university will not get funding" mentality as well?


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

I found this on a consumer reports website on dog and cat food and it proves my point about conflict of interest. Read the bold print I have added:



> Should you pay a lot for pet food?
> 
> "There's no scientific evidence that any food is better than the next," says Joseph Wakshlag, D.V.M., Ph.D., an assistant professor of clinical nutrition at the Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine. Pets can thrive on inexpensive food or become ill from pricey food. If your animal is active and healthy, the food is doing its job. A higher price could mean better ingredients and better quality control during and after manufacturing. But you might also be paying for pretty packaging, marketing, or a fancy name.


The sentence that preceded this said:



> We asked eight experts in dog and cat nutrition at seven top veterinary schools what you get by spending more for pet food. *(Note: All but one have received some funding from the pet-food industry.)* They also shared advice on pet feeding. Answers represent their consensus.


This is precisely why I titled this thread: "Can we find the truth about what we feed? "

There is some good info here as well: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=myths


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## BmoreTrue (Jun 19, 2009)

in my experience i have found that the larger brands (which tend to produce lower quality foods IMO) spend more on advertising and packaging then the small or mid sized companies. When i rfer to large brands i mean Purina (owned by Land'O'Lakes), Beneful (owned by hershey), eukenuba (owned by proctor and gambel), kibbles'n'bits (owned by del monte). I hope this post is relevant to this thread haha.


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## BullyForUs (Jul 18, 2009)

Proud Marine Dad said:


> You mean those people that were paid by Hills? :rofl:
> Yes, there is an unbiased group there.


Um, no. I think you liekl;y have a very unclear view of how the industry affects the university level of things - you have far more to worry about with Banfield thann you do Hills, IMO.



Proud Marine Dad said:


> Would you do me a favor since you live in vet town? Ask these vet nutritionists how corn gluten and brewer's rice are the main ingredients in a food for a carnivore.
> 
> There must be some experts out there that are not being told what to say by Purina and Hills and I hope to find some.
> 
> I wonder if Texas A&M is better or have they also fallen to the "say what we want or else your university will not get funding" mentality as well?


The people that I asked gave me their professional opinion and are not employed by Hills. Brewer's rice is a filler, yes, but it's not automatically "horrid". Not sure why I would ask about corn gluten.

And dogs aren't pure carnivores according to many nutritionists, they are more considered omnivores these days - I know that isn't going to be a popular opinion here, but hey check it out, I agree with that and therefore grains aren't something that aren't going digested, as a result.

A quote from wikipedia just for kicks: "Despite its descent from wolves, the domestic dog is an omnivore,[2] though it is classified in the order Carnivora. Unlike an obligate carnivore, such as a member of the cat family with its shorter small intestine, a dog is neither dependent on meat-specific protein nor a very high level of protein in order to fulfill its basic dietary requirements. Dogs are able to healthily digest a variety of foods, including vegetables and grains, and can consume a large proportion of these in their diet. In the wild, canines often eat available plants and fruits.[2]"

Look at it this way - human nutritionists can't even decide 100% what is best for our own SPECIES. lol. Eggs are good. Eggs are bad. Eggs are good again. Carbs are good, Carbs are bad. Some are good, some are bad. You can get nutritionists for ANY species to argue different spectrums of diet and nutrition and they can pull in alllllll sorts of studies and science into to back their opinions.

We get the fun job of deciding who WE believe.

I am not challenging how you believe - if you want to believe what you believe, fine by me. I am explaining why *I* don't agree and why *I* don't find your references something that holds weight for me. In doing so it is not making a statement about your views at all, I'm just discussing MY views, and really not discussing yours.

I actually get a fairly industry free view of the veterinary world so I'm not surprised that my views are different than a lot of folks.

My post was NOT directed at your posts, or your views. My post was merely an injection of truth - that there is money to be found in scare tactics and by hyping up that some foods are better for this or that (fill in the blank for their marketing spiel).

In saying that wasn't saying your views or opinions were wrong, it was just a generalized comment that is in fact true.

And I am happy to stand by that. But my original post in this thread wasn't discussing a diet at all, just mentioning that folks ought to be aware that the noble companies bottom line is to compete and make money, no matter how they dress it up, and in a capitalist society like ours, of COURSE they are going to slam their competitors and say they are the best.


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## BullyForUs (Jul 18, 2009)

Proud Marine Dad said:


> I found this on a consumer reports website on dog and cat food and it proves my point about conflict of interest. Read the bold print I have added:
> 
> The sentence that preceded this said:
> 
> ...


It proves your point for you. I get that. I simply do not agree.

I know that there is industry funding, but I also get that there are SMART people behind those degrees and that just because someone shells out cash for this or that - that MOST of them., are smart enough to draw their OWN conclusions and look where the money trail is and aren't blind little sheep.

Some are, yes. But I believe that most are not.

There *are* places in the veterinary field that are NOT fueled, funded, or influenced by the large pet industry companies, believe it or not.

I am fine that you have your views. I just don't agree with some of them, and hey, I am okay with that.

I have no desire to change your opinions or views, or have you agree with me. Hopefully you will at some point (soon I hope) come to that same conclusion and be okay with us not agreeing as well and just eventually agree to disagree with me on this topic and we can move on. LOL!


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

BullyForUs said:


> And dogs aren't pure carnivores according to many nutritionists, they are more considered omnivores these days - I know that isn't going to be a popular opinion here, but hey check it out, I agree with that and therefore grains aren't something that aren't going digested, as a result.


I know when my dog is in the yard when she is not diggin I see her eat grass all the time. I don't know if that is relevent or not but.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

BullyForUs said:


> Hopefully you will at some point (soon I hope) come to that same conclusion and be okay with us not agreeing as well and just eventually agree to disagree with me on this topic and we can move on. LOL!


Agreed. What you are feeding may be fine for a dog, nobody seems to be able to have conclusive evidence on either side. I do however feel that with the higher priced kibbles you are getting consistant quality and overall better ingredients. Whether you want to spend the extra money to get that or not is up to you. All I know is that when the food scare of 2007 was in full swing I did not have to worry about Canidae which I was feeding at the time as they were using quality ingredients unlike many of the low quality brands that actually killed several dogs. I am not implying that what you feed was one of them but anytime a dog food is that much cheaper in cost it worries me as to the quality control of ingredients. Also, you mentioned that dog food companies are only out to make money......Uh, yeah! Isn't that what all businesses are out to do? If they didn't make money they would go under in short time.

On another note, you are correct that while dogs are carnivores by nature, they do well on an omnivore diet although I still feel their diet should be predominately made up of meats and higher quality proteins as that is what their bodies need.

One other thing, you said: 


> Brewer's rice is a filler, yes, but it's not automatically "horrid".


I never said brewers rice was "horrid" I said it has no nutritional value and therefore you are paying for something that is pretty much 
just a contributor to the dogs stool mass.



> Not sure why I would ask about corn gluten.


Why do you say that? Everything I have read says that gluten is one of the worst possible ingredients in kibble.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Any way you look at it, you're going to get what you pay for. Just do your research and make an informed decision. Sometimes you have to sift through the BS and just draw your own conclusion.


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> Any way you look at it, you're going to get what you pay for. Just do your research and make an informed decision. Sometimes you have to sift through the BS and just draw your own conclusion.


I second that motion. Can someone read the minutes from the last meeting please.:hammer:


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> Any way you look at it, you're going to get what you pay for.


While I agree with you, there are people who think we spend too much money on food that has no better overall value to the dog's health than the lower priced foods and this is something I feel is illogical thinking, but to each his/her own. I don't see the logic in thinking that a food that has only 1 of the first 6 ingredients listed as meat could possibly be as nutritional as one that has the first 3-4 ingredients as meats. 
Use this comparison on Innova's site. I think the ingredients speak for themselves.

http://www.naturapet.com/tools/comparison.asp


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## BullyForUs (Jul 18, 2009)

Proud Marine Dad said:


> Agreed. What you are feeding may be fine for a dog, nobody seems to be able to have conclusive evidence on either side.


I'd agree with that and really, that was all my post said. It was merely to provide a balance to the thread - that instead of blindly feeding into the latest hype, to step back, and think and come to your own conclusions rather than just bouncing off the latest this is killing your pet fad.

If you still come to that conclusion, cool. But at least there was someone saying dig into it and think about it before assuming it is all fact, as there is just as much money to be made off of either side of the fence.

All I was saying.



Proud Marine Dad said:


> I do however feel that with the higher priced kibbles you are getting consistant quality and overall better ingredients. Whether you want to spend the extra money to get that or not is up to you.


And that is likely where you and I differ in our opinions. I do not automatically equate that paying more equates higher quality - rather I equate that the higher price is all about a marketing strategy to get pet owners to pay more for the same quality while thinking they are getting more bang for the buck, when it is likely the same thing in reality.

You would disagree with that - and that is cool, as we just have different opinions on that.



Proud Marine Dad said:


> All I know is that when the food scare of 2007 was in full swing I did not have to worry about Canidae which I was feeding at the time as they were using quality ingredients unlike many of the low quality brands that actually killed several dogs. I am not implying that what you feed was one of them but anytime a dog food is that much cheaper in cost it worries me as to the quality control of ingredients.


It wasn't. It was one of the very few foods that never made it anywhere near on the list and was reportedly one of the few that didn't get a single report of an illness or death during that time.



Proud Marine Dad said:


> Also, you mentioned that dog food companies are only out to make money......Uh, yeah! Isn't that what all businesses are out to do? If they didn't make money they would go under in short time.


Exactly. And that includes selling the belief and the idea that their product is better and safer for your pet. Either by telling the truth, or lying straight out, or smear campaigns or coloring the truth a little bit or throwing out marketing phrases that build up their product while distilling doubt in the competition's product.

And it is a no-brainer that a LOT of folks are going to jump on the our food is safer and better for your pet than the others. So walking into that food isle with open eyes for BOTH ends of the spectrum can only be a GOOD thing, IMO.



Proud Marine Dad said:


> On another note, you are correct that while dogs are carnivores by nature, they do well on an omnivore diet although I still feel their diet should be predominately made up of meats and higher quality proteins as that is what their bodies need.


And I feel my food does that. Granted it is my opinion. but this wasn't the thread that I was trying to state that in - all I was doing in THIS thread was speaking for the ONE side of the argument/debate that had not been voiced before in the entire thread, to give the discussion balance and to interject that because a company says it is better - doesn't really make it a fact and to dig deeper and to question the source. NOT to discuss what I choose to feed my dog. If you read my post you will see that I make NO mention of my preference or choice of food at all.

ALL I said was this:



BullyForUs said:


> There is as much money to be made off hyping up the masses to be terrified of manufactured pet food as there is in selling and making manufactured pet food.
> 
> Right now there is a HUGE hype about how horrid all manufactured foods are, and you can bet your buns that a LOT of folks are jumping on that bandwagon and are ready to tell those worried about it .... anythingggggggggg they want to hear to get them to spend their bucks on whatever they are selling.
> 
> ...


NOTHING in that spoke to MY views on food or feeding or spoke a single breath or implication as to what I personally feed my dog. The JMO was in reference the entire point of my post, which was about not blindly buying into the "scare hype" and "fear mongering" without looking deeper, not my comment about ol Roy.

Nor did it at ANY point say any post before my post was wrong or bad, nor did it criticize anyone elses' opinion or choices in what they choose to feed their dog. It didn't even remotely challenge anything except blindly believing companies whose sole intent is to get you to buy their product.

It was a very objectively stated and generalized comment that merely provided a different perspective and voice on the topic without injecting my personal food preference or dissing anyone else's food preference in the process.

If you got that from my post, you created it in your mind ... as it certainly wasn't coming from me, wasn't my intent, and most certainly is not in any of my words in that post.



Proud Marine Dad said:


> One other thing, you said:
> 
> I never said brewers rice was "horrid" I said it has no nutritional value and therefore you are paying for something that is pretty much
> just a contributor to the dogs stool mass.


And I think that is an opinion. I don't think that it has *absolutely no nutritional value*. I do not agree with that at all.

I do not agree or believe that is the truth, any more than I believe that white rice has no nutritional value and that only brown rice has nutritional value. There are folks out there that would disagree with me, and be willing and able to debate it and would have source and studies to back that stance - just like I would. but that alone doesn't make it fact, or cause me to think that feeding my family white rice is in some way feeding them pure garbage. (Note: I state that but my personal preference in rice - if anyone even cares a blip LOL, is wild rice or brown rice, but I'm just using that analogy to make a point here.)

And it is one ingredient. It's not the first one, just the second in the first five. And it's okay if you feel by that 2nd placement alone, it's a bad food. I just do not agree with that after speaking to nutritionists and vets that I know and getting their POV on the ingredients listed and asking their opinion, (which I respect and consider to be an expert opinion) on if my food of choice is a high quality food or not.

I do not expect or ask you to believe me or accept my third party relaying ... as I wouldn't accept that myself as "proof" of anything, lol. All I am doing is answering your question why *I* am okay with it (which is really all I *can* do, is speak for myself) - which you keep asking - so I keep answering, because that is the polite and civil thing to do.

What folks decide is their own call, I expect everyone will do the amount of research they are comfortable with and that they will make their own choices.



Proud Marine Dad said:


> Not sure why I would ask about corn gluten.
> Why do you say that?


Let me turn that around and place the question back towards you.

Why ... based on my stated food of choice ... would you think or feel that I would want (or need) to ask about corn or corn gluten?

Just in case you were speaking about doing "generalized research" rather than specific research (like I was referring to) ... I asked about that as an ingredient "in general" when I was first beginning my research (which I might add that I started three months BEFORE I got a dog, along with all my other research).

Once I had the answer, I saw no need to ask about it since none of the foods I then had later questions about, had any reason I could see for me to ask about that ingredient. In other words, none of the foods I was considering had that in it. So thus, no reason for me to ask. Just as now, with the food I fed, I have "no reason to ask" that I am aware of.



Proud Marine Dad said:


> Everything I have read says that gluten is one of the worst possible ingredients in kibble


Well ... depends on how you really meant that question to be understood.

Are you speaking of that in regard to my food of choice?

Or are you now changing the focus of the discussion from your end to a generalized discussion that reviews and examines that ingredient as opposed to examining and critiquing the specific diet I chose?

For me, in regard to my food of choice, that topic is pointless to expound on since it has no relevance. So the conversation would quickly hit the proverbial wall.

To continue on that vein of discussion in general ... the above statement (for me) would then bring into question and relevance about the quality and reliability and of your sources - ie how much of what those authors could back with science and fact rather than hype and opinion. You might feel that they are experts - I might disagree and think they are talking out their butts and maybe were paid to spin things their way.

If I didn't agree on your author or that the source of your knowledge was a good one, then we'd be right back in the same place - with two different opinions that didn't agree with each other.

Of course ... it's all semantics since I tend to not really especially like gluten LOL - so it is more likely that we'd agree than disagree on that specific topic. 

I could though, for debates sake, argue a stance that I do not agree with myself, but ... this doesn't seem like the appropriate forum for that and I think most folks would miss that I was debating a view that opposed my own.


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

For the love of all that is pitbull. Just stop already!! Who cares really anyway. You feed what you can afford and if that is Gravy Train or a 15 pound bag that costs $50. If you believe that the more expensive kibble is good for your dog great it's your call in the end anyways. You do all you can do for your dog. If you want to talk it out use the PM button and argue in private. Please  :flush:


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

Sadie's Dad said:


> For the love of all that is pitbull. Just stop already!! Who cares really anyway. You feed what you can afford and if that is Gravy Train or a 15 pound bag that costs $50. If you believe that the more expensive kibble is good for your dog great it's your call in the end anyways. You do all you can do for your dog. If you want to talk it out use the PM button and argue in private. Please  :flush:


Paul, This thread was started by me dude and I think that gives me the right to debate it if I so choose doesn't it? 

Anyhow, I am through debating the point as it is a stale mate.


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

Proud Marine Dad said:


> Paul, This thread was started by me dude and I think that gives me the right to debate it if I so choose doesn't it?


Yes it is your right to debate it. You are not the one that I was refering to.


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## Proud Marine Dad (Apr 1, 2009)

Sadie's Dad said:


> Yes it is your right to debate it. You are not the one that I was refering to.


It's all good. Alyssa has a right to speak her mind even though she is wrong and thinks all the companies that make good kibble are unethical and just want to make money. :rofl:
Until there is proof to the contrary I believe that companies like Innova truly want to make the best holistic food they can because they care about our pets. I am an optimist and others are pessimists apparently and I am not about to answer every little detail like a novel on here.


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

Amen to that brother.


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