# My dogs with a question



## APBT4LIFE (May 24, 2010)

My Dogs....










































What are the collective thoughts on this tail???


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

LMAO it looks just like a pug tail. Can you make it straight and then let go and watch it curl back up like pugs do?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

It looks like a severely kinked tail, which is a genetic defect and a serious fault as per the breed standard. I have had only one experience myself with a kinked tail, but those with more experience than myself maintain that a defect with the tail can indicate further spinal problems since the tail is merely an extension of the spine. The dog I had with the kinked tail had an "S" kink near the base of her tail and 3-4" of normal tail. She always had poor balance, but she also had other structural faults which may have contributed. I'm not saying that your boy's tail will necessarily cause him problems in life, but he definitely shouldn't be bred because there would be a good chance of passing that on. 

ETA: Here's a picture of an English Bulldog, a breed which is bred specifically to get the kinked tail. (I believe they call it a "screw" tail or something terribly clever like that, but its the same condition as far as I know.)








http://www.greatdogsite.com/admin/uploaded_files/1191000013english_bulldog.jpg


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Fine looking pups, kinked tail and all


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Just wanted to add that your pups are beautiful  The tan one has almost the same markings as my boy Marley  Marley has a nub tail it's super cute


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

*First, I want to say that I love your baby dogs!! They are so beautiful!!! I love the 3rd to the last pic of your baby boy.... What a face!:roll::roll:
What are their names?

I don't really know a whole lot about kinked tails; however I did find the following post from Holly (american_pit13) about kinked tails. It was in an old thread from 2007 but I thought it was a good explanation. I have also heard what Lindsay was talking about, but he seems to have gotten along fine with his tail thus far so I wouldn't wouldn't worry too much about it. It gives him character!! Hope to see more pics of your baby dogs soon!*
:woof::woof:


american_pit13 said:


> It can come from the breeding of dogs that have kinked tails. Moo has a kinked tail this is why we do not breed her. She did have one litter and out of that litter she had two short corkscrewed tailed puppies that where givin to pet homes. The male she got pregnant by also carried the kinked tailed gene and thats how it happened. It is a spinal deformity and should be avoided unless you just want a cute pet with a cute tail.


View the *original *thread


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

Nice dogs, the fourth one I think it was looks like she got into trouble for something..poor baby


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

coppermare said:


> Nice dogs, the fourth one I think it was looks like she got into trouble for something..poor baby


*Haha yeah totally looks like he is being scolded!*


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

Very adorable dogs! But yes, like Lindsay said, it's a kink tail! Considered a major fault, although some people (ugh to the max) do not fix their kink tailed dogs and breed them. If your dog has a kink it most likely passes on the gene for the kink and the puppies could possibly have kinks, or if they had puppies, pass it on to their puppies. At least, that was the way I understood it when it was explained to me!


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Very cute doggies!Don't really know about kinked tails other then that's not in the apbt standard.
Welcome to the forum!:woof:


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## APBT4LIFE (May 24, 2010)

*Thanks a Bunch*

Thank you all. The male's (Tan)name is Monster. The female's Name is Rock Star. They are just so full of energy :rofl: I was not planning on breeding him (because of his tail) so i neutered him But she's his sister (liter siblings) She has what looks like a kinked tail too but I was told that the parents had stepped on her tail and it wasn't like that before hand; It does look broken. Any how, I'm in the military stationed in Italy and i have ALOT of friends (lot of guys/families+Small base) Anyways they all want APBT pups but they are 2500 Euro Abut 3000+ dollars for a "good" dog. So I figured I'd breed the female. I Found a really nice male near Vinice and paid the guy 900 euro to breed them. Real nice dude with Italian papers (whatever those are worth) but saw pictures of some of the past litters the male threw with his female and they never had any problems with tails specifically, or form or health< from what he claims. So we bred them 2 months back and pow 2 days ago 11 Puppies, none still born, all have a pretty pick nose, only one of them had to be helped (the last one) come out. 6 Females, 5 male BUT almost half of the 11 have kinked tails. I really wish i would have put more thought into research and bloodline genetics or mainly before I bought my dogs... something.... because although i just bred them to give them to my friends so they could have awesome dogs (My dogs are great with kids and other dogs) and represent the bred well; i would have still like them to be perfect like the rest of their little bodies look. Some friends have hit me back on facebook saying no man it's cool i like how that tail looks. But really how much are they going to like when other people knowledgeable about the APBT say man thats a wierd looking tail. Any how, I've enjoyed the whole process from raising them to breeding her to helping her deliver. My daughter saw puppies being born and went crazy. She wants to keep all eleven. She's 5. So it was a great experience. What i'm pretty sure i have to do now is spayed and neuter all the kinked tail pups. I'm not sure about the none kinked tails though... I'm sure they carry the gene. But is it recessive since they didnt get it? ALsohow many generations would someone have to breed inorder to breed out something like that?

P.S. he wasn't being scolded he i said, "look at the camera and pointed to it and he made that face 

Thank you for all the comments and I'll be digging alot more in this forum before I make any more decisions on dogs.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Kudos to you on (at least thinking about) neutering the kink-tailed puppies. If it were my litter, honestly, I'd alter all of them and the mom. I'm not sure what the nature of kink tails is on a genetic level. Maybe a more experienced breeder can offer some insight. If you do keep any of the non-kinked babies intact (and be aware that some kinks are minor and you really have to feel the whole tail to find them), maybe a "test" breeding with a non-kinked partner would show you the heritability of the trait. That would be up to you, and whether or not you felt you could keep those pups from going out into the world intact, just in case. 

Do you have any shows where you're at? That would help you reach knowledgeable breeders who could hep you. We've also got a policy over here (or well, many of us do) that if you're going to breed dogs, you really should show, weight pull, or do some kind of events with them to establish quality. I don't claim to know how it works in other countries.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Even though some were born with and some without kink tail. I would lean toward it being dominant if the parents weren't related at all.

It could be either dominant or recessive. I have seen cases of both. If it's dominant it will be easier to remove from the breeding population. Have the pups xrayed to make sure there are no kinks in the tail that are not visible. Then from there make your selection. If it has no kink at all it's likely that it won't produce affected offspring if it is a dominant gene. If it's recessive it will be harder. They could keep popping up indefinitely unless you find a way to test to see if a dog is a carrier or not. Then only breed the ones that are not carriers.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

You have gotten very good advice from everyone. I would not breed the female as you can not believe the breeder that it wasn't like that when she was born. It may not have been as sever, but most likely was there. Some kinks get worse as the age some you can see less.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

awwww our boys look like brothers


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

That is a more severe kinked tail than I have ever seen on a pittie. My guess would be that somewhere along the line a breed like english bulldog was crossed in. I would honestly have all pups and bitch spayed and neutered. Do any of the pups have a dimple above the base of the tail? If any of them do, I would just keep an eye out for any kind of movement impairment, like seeming to urinate and defecate without realizing (once they are are older and squatting), difficulty learning to stand and walk, etc. My guess is that all will be fine, and the chance of serious complication is small, but you would want to watch carefully so you don't give any friends a sickly dog and break a family's heart. Good luck, and let us know how they grow.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

FloorCandy said:


> That is a more severe kinked tail than I have ever seen on a pittie. My guess would be that somewhere along the line a breed like english bulldog was crossed in.


You actually don't have to cross in any breeds to get this. The tail that EB and Bostons have is due to the same gene that causes this in APBTS.This is one reason I would never breed those breeds of dogs, they are breeding a genetic defect as a standard, same as the ridge in the ridgeback is a genetic defect.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

american_pit13 said:


> You actually don't have to cross in any breeds to get this. The tail that EB and Bostons have is due to the same gene that causes this in APBTS.This is one reason I would never breed those breeds of dogs, they are breeding a genetic defect as a standard, same as the ridge in the ridgeback is a genetic defect.


Good info, Holly. I did not know that


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## APBT4LIFE (May 24, 2010)

*Thanks*

All very good info... looking into testing the straight tail dogs to see if they carry the Gene but it's looking like 1500 a dog. Anyone know any places/costs? I'm thinking about just following the advise, spay the bitch. I really enjoyed the whole thing of breeding the dogs... Thinking about starting over and either 1. buying "Top dogs" and go from there. OR 2. testing dogs selecting one and seting up and spay and neuter agreement with my friends. ( If you wnat the dogs you don't have to pay me but you do have to pay the cost to have them fixed) and going from there.

I'm going to have to think about this one. I want to do it right from no on that I know better. Pace guys


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