# Pitter Staff, what is the reason for those breedings?



## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

Sorry I have been thinking about Bogart's bloodline. He had some FANTASTIC OFRN back in his ped then somehow American Staffordshire terrier crept in. I am just curious WHY someone would cross those two dogs to make the pitter staff? 

Why would someone back a bitch up to a showline dog and vice versa.
is this error by breeder not knowing how to properly read a ped or is this knowlingly done??


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Depends on what the breeder was looking to add to the line. If the breeder was looking for more bone they are likely to breed to and Amstaff to get that result. Some dogs where bred to due to certian title or popular sire syndrome.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

OK I am going to answer this one ... But I have to take the dog's out BRB ... Stay Tuned LOL Everyone grab your popcorn it's going to be a bumpy ride ...


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)




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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

[email protected] girl those things are so funny .... 


Now to answer the question there is absolutely NO reason and I repeat NO reason for a breeder to ever cross show lines into game lines. Both dog's serve an entirely different purpose an Amstaff has nothing to offer the Game bred dog and vice versa. People who do this are ruining breed's and dog's and should be culled from the planet.... It is never ok or accepted by fancier's of either breed to do this. I know people do it but it doesn't make it right. Amstaff's should remain Amstaff's and Gamedogs should remain Gamedogs and any fancier or enthusiast of the either breeds will agree with me this is frowned upon and shouldn't be done period!! This is a prime example of why the bully has so many issues now.


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

RileyRoo said:


> Sorry I have been thinking about Bogart's bloodline. He had some FANTASTIC OFRN back in his ped then somehow American Staffordshire terrier crept in. I am just curious WHY someone would cross those two dogs to make the pitter staff?
> 
> Why would someone back a bitch up to a showline dog and vice versa.
> is this error by breeder not knowing how to properly read a ped or is this knowlingly done??


Only reason I can think of is to make money on some pups. Otherwise its just gonna give you a litter of curs and tant the bloodline by adding Amstaff into a game line


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

Sadie said:


> [email protected] girl those things are so funny ....
> 
> Now to answer the question there is absolutely NO reason and I repeat NO reason for a breeder to ever cross show lines into game lines. Both dog's serve an entirely different purpose an Amstaff has nothing to offer the Game bred dog and vice versa. People who do this are ruining breed's and dog's and should be culled from the planet.... It is never ok or accepted by fancier's of either breed to do this. I know people do it but it doesn't make it right. Amstaff's should remain Amstaff's and Gamedogs should remain Gamedogs and any fancier or enthusiast of the either breeds will agree with me this is frowned upon and shouldn't be done period!! This is a prime example of why the bully has so many issues now.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost: wow, thank you so much for that post!
however as an owner of a pitter staff I don't believe he should be culled for the ignorance of his creator, it isn't his fault his breeder was a :hammer: :hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer:



Kayo45 said:


> *Only reason I can think of is to make money on some pups*. Otherwise its just gonna give you a litter of curs and tant the bloodline by adding Amstaff into a game line


that is sad and what a real shame.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

RileyRoo said:


> :goodpost::goodpost::goodpost: wow, thank you so much for that post!
> however as an owner of a pitter staff I don't believe he should be culled for the ignorance of his creator, it isn't his fault his breeder was a :hammer: :hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer:
> 
> that is sad and what a real shame.


Riley I am not talking about your pup I am talking about the breeder who did this .. Breeder's who do this shouldn't be allowed to breed IMO .. I said the breeder's should be culled off the planet not the dog.

*People who do this are ruining breed's and dog's and should be culled from the planet....*


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

why not cull the breeders and not the dogs?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Well in some cases people buy these dog's and don't understand or know what the breeder is doing and that it's wrong. I don't think the Op's dog should be culled for the breeder's ignorance and stupidity. Generally it's pretty much a known that you shouldn't do this but you know BYB's do it anyway and some show breeder's do it why? I have no idea because there is just no excuse to ever do it. But many people own dog's bred like this. I wouldn't tell someone who bought a dog like this to cull it because that's someone's dog LOL .. But the breeder needs his you know what kicked.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

just a question since the game dog is more athletic and the amstaff less game if any and less da could breeding these together make the pitterstaff more athletic that the amstaff and less da and game then the apbt. so you possible would get a well rounded working dog. Just a question


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## j-crash (Jun 29, 2010)

RileyRoo said:


> Sorry I have been thinking about Bogart's bloodline. He had some FANTASTIC OFRN back in his ped then somehow American Staffordshire terrier crept in. I am just curious WHY someone would cross those two dogs to make the pitter staff?
> 
> Why would someone back a bitch up to a showline dog and vice versa.
> is this error by breeder not knowing how to properly read a ped or is this knowlingly done??


because someone paid the stud fee...?

i wouldn't think most reputable breeders would do that, but i'm sure if somebody ponies up some cash to use the champion dog as stud so owners would take it. however, i don't know anything about your particular dog, so i'm just guessing.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> just a question since the game dog is more athletic and the amstaff less game if any and less da could breeding these together make the pitterstaff more athletic that the amstaff and less da and game then the apbt. so you possible would get a well rounded working dog. Just a question


This is very simple only people who want to create mutt's do this .. There is no need to mess around with established breeds. There are plenty of breeds out there to choose from pick one and be happy. A game dog is a working terrier An Amstaff is a show dog bred for looks both breed of dogs bred entirely for 2 different purposes. Neither breed can offer up anything to the other. And a good breeder is never ever going to cross show lines into game lines and ruin all the hard work that has gone into creating these breeds and bloodlines. Years and Years of culling and selective breeding has given us the great breeds we have today. If you can't handle a game dog because it's too prey driven then get an get an Amstaff you won't really have to worry much about DA with them and they make great show ring conformation dogs. If you want a working athletic dog with serious prey and working drive that you can use for hunting and other working sports get a Game dog. It's very simple find a breed that suites your lifestyle there are enough established breeds out there bred for a purpose don't go messing with perfection and years of selective breeding to suite your own selfish wants and needs.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

IMO...the Pitterstaff was the "start" of the bully craze. People would cross the pit and staff to acheive a stockier pit. I beleive it was more than likely initially done for "looks". BUT there are some people that breed pitterstaffs for WP dogs. It's all a preference thing...you'll always have purist who don't like the mix, and you'll have people who love it. Just my opinion though...


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

:goodpost:

People have been messing aroung with established breeds for ever. I think thats how we ended up with the apbt in the first place didnt we


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

I will say I am a game APBT fan and have owned them since 1988. I lost my 12 year old this Feb from cancer and decided to get a Pitterstaff because I feel too old to really work my dog like I used too. Well, I got a DA working dog with tons of Drive. Bad for my 3 bugling discs but I realized what I would've been missing Her brothers are Stockier and not driven at all. I did pick the runt, who was the first to escape every pen and cage that put her in. My almost 15 year Neblett's and Hempill female is gonna be passing soon and then I'm down to 1.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Wingman said:


> IMO...the Pitterstaff was the "start" of the bully craze. People would cross the pit and staff to acheive a stockier pit. I beleive it was more than likely initially done for "looks". BUT there are some people that breed pitterstaffs for WP dogs. It's all a preference thing...you'll always have purist who don't like the mix, and you'll have people who love it. Just my opinion though...


Think about this though why would anyone need to breed a show dog into a working dog for WP A game dog has all the ability athletic stamina build and drive to pull anything hell they were bred to go rounds with other dogs in the pit for hours take a beating without stopping so how is it that anyone would think they would need to mix show blood into a working dog for weight pull??? That makes no sense to me ... A show dog was not meant to pull anything they were meant to stand in a ring and look pretty for the judge.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

fishinrob said:


> I will say I am a game APBT fan and have owned them since 1988. I lost my 12 year old this Feb from cancer and decided to get a Pitterstaff because I feel too old to really work my dog like I used too. Well, I got a DA working dog with tons of Drive. Bad for my 3 bugling discs but I realized what I would've been missing Her brothers are Stockier and not driven at all. I did pick the runt, who was the first to escape every pen and cage that put her in. My almost 15 year Neblett's and Hempill female is gonna be passing soon and then I'm down to 1.


sorry about your lose but I'm glad you ended up with what you really wanted.
I peronaly realy like runt seems to me theyve had to fight harder to survive imo


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

sorry Sadie, I must not have read that right. I agree that the breeders who breed mutts should be culled.. it isn't fair to distribute the dogs as 'pitbulls' when they are NOT. now that I can read peds (not every well but I know enough to distinguish game from amstaff and bully on a drop of a dime which is why I qestioned the breeder and bluntly said that his dogs lines looked pitter staff) I can see why so many people are so misinformed about what they have, also it is so useful to be able to read pedigrees. Period. it helps in the long run when choosing the right animal for your home and health issues..With amstaff people have to watch out for Ataxia and not very many people research the issues in breeds and end up sometimes out ALOT of money do to byb's breeding wrongly.
I am not sure if that is entierly true about saying amstaffs are less DA I believe it depends on the bloodlines and with a pitter staff I think it could really go either way..the dog could be DA or it maynot be but that IMO about it.
I'd like to add that so far with my dog has shown 0% DA and backs off when Peaches says enough. and about 99% all Drive .If he stays this way then I will be VERY happy.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

RileyRoo said:


> sorry Sadie, I must not have read that right. I agree that the breeders who breed mutts should be culled.. it isn't fair to distribute the dogs as 'pitbulls' when they are NOT. now that I can read peds (not every well but I know enough to distinguish game from amstaff and bully on a drop of a dime which is why I qestioned the breeder and bluntly said that his dogs lines looked pitter staff) I can see why so many people are so misinformed about what they have, also it is so useful to be able to read pedigrees. Period. it helps in the long run when choosing the right animal for your home and health issues..With amstaff people have to watch out for Ataxia and not very many people research the issues in breeds and end up sometimes out ALOT of money do to byb's breeding wrongly.
> I am not sure if that is entierly true about saying amstaffs are less DA I believe it depends on the bloodlines and with a pitter staff I think it could really go either way..the dog could be DA or it maynot be but that IMO about it.
> I'd like to add that so far with my dog has shown 0% DA and backs off when Peaches says enough. and about 99% all Drive .If he stays this way then I will be VERY happy.


Typically DA is frowned upon in the AKC show ring it's not even tolerated judges don't want to see it period and a dog will be disqualified for it... they are there to stand still and look pretty. DA was selectively breed out of the show ring dog for many years 80+ years to be exact. I am not saying it's not possible for an Amstaff to show DA but it's highly unlikely. Now if your talking about a dog bred like yours who is half amstaff half game bred/APBT that's different. The game bred dog was of course bred to be DA so because your pup does have some game blood in his pedigree it's very likely than unlikely for DA to show up at some point.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

` Bogart has some ch. weightpull amstaffs in his pedigree and doesn't Lisa own Pitter Staffs who work aswell???


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Typically DA is frowned upon in the AKC show ring it's not even tolerated judges don't want to see it period and a dog will be disqualified for it... they are there to stand still and look pretty. DA was selectively breed out of the show ring dog for many years 80+ years to be exact. I am not saying it's not possible for an Amstaff to show DA but it's highly unlikely. Now if your talking about a dog bred like yours who is half amstaff half game bred/APBT that's different. The game bred dog was of course bred to be DA so because your pup does have some game blood in his pedigree it's very likely than unlikely for DA to show up at some point.


 Ah see I am not familiar with Amstaffs. is it the same for UKC aswell with the breed??
off topic but I know Bullies weren't bred to be DA but it still comes out in some of the classic dogs.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Todays terms and ideas are all Fkd as it is.. NO one listens to the men of old; THE ORIGINAL AM STAFF was from select GAME stock dogs the peds show this, there are boudreaux Am Staffs and so on and so forth Colby/Heinzel dogs in AKC/ADBA/UKC.. All the best AMSTF lines still hold on to as much of that original game style dog as possible Tacoma, and so on.. 

IMO.. Show dogs should still come from selecting the picture perfect dog from game/working stock.. JMO Pitterstaff? WHAT? sorry I don't do new terms very well, APBTs can and are registered as AKC AMSTAFF as well.. Have crossed from ADBA/UKC into AKC every since ever since.. Colby, Nebbletts, Tudors, Corvino, the list is endless.. BECAUSE THE SHOW DOG ORIGINATED FROM THE SOUND GAMEDOG.. They will always need the APBT but the APBT doesnt need the AMstaff. Does that make sense? Game dogs are bred to be SOUND and so we must cull undesired traits. Unllike people who just breed show dogs to show dogs breeding for looks, a quote from Heinzel comes to mind, Heinzels rollin over in his grave; ironic lots of his blood in the AMstaff lines.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

RileyRoo said:


> Ah see I am not familiar with Amstaffs. is it the same for UKC aswell with the breed??
> off topic but I know Bullies weren't bred to be DA but it still comes out in some of the classic dogs.


To my understanding you can't register an American Staffordshire Terrier with the UKC.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

Sadie said:


> To my understanding you can't register an American Staffordshire Terrier with the UKC.


hmmm, well...My dog is UKC registered as an APBT
all the dogs in his ped are all UKC registered with some dual reg ADBA

I believe amstaffs are registered under American Pitbull Terrier in UKC right? IF both parents are UKC.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

All I know is there are MANY game dogs registered in all 3.. Pedigree searches will reveal such.. BUT AS IT STANDS the two shouldn't cross and they should, the AM staff needs the sound APBT but does not need all that drive behind a hidden HA trait.. SO IM a catch 22 on this subject.. Dammed if you do, Dammed if you don't.. Unless SHow breeders are ready to cull undesired mentality traits as well, that means a 2yr old dog sometimes.. It is what it is..


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/9317-ukc-akc-reigstered.html
This thread was about dual registering dogs.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Think about this though why would anyone need to breed a show dog into a working dog for WP A game dog has all the ability athletic stamina build and drive to pull anything hell they were bred to go rounds with other dogs in the pit for hours take a beating without stopping so how is it that anyone would think they would need to mix show blood into a working dog for weight pull??? That makes no sense to me ... A show dog was not meant to pull anything they were meant to stand in a ring and look pretty for the judge.


Perhaps they were after the stockier build of the Amstaff with the drive and tenacity of the APBT. It seems like a reasonable cross IMO. It's like giving a tank a sports car engine...all the drive and power, but lots of brute force/build on top? haha


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

All Amtaffs if you go back far enough in generations will stem from game dogs. But today's Amstaff SHOULD NOT have any game blood in there pedigree's anywhere up close in the pedigree they are show dogs and have been bred for the show ring for over 80 years.

We are talking about taking a dog bred like this a registered AKC amstaff

AMSTAFF PEDIGREES

and breeding it to a dog like this an ADBA Game dog

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [428] :: S.T.P.'S BUCK (7XW)


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

these are some dogs in Bog's Ped:

This ---> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [979] :: ROSS' RED DEVIL (8XW)

This ---> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [3613] :: SULLIVAN'S CALIFORNIA SUNDANCER

This ---> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [28687] :: CASTILLO'S CALIFORNIA GIRL

This ---> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [288878] :: CALIFORNIA'S LION QUEEN SIMBA
This ---> http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=122282

This ---> http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=58021

This ---> http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=8207


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Wingman said:


> Perhaps they were after the stockier build of the Amstaff with the drive and tenacity of the APBT. It seems like a reasonable cross IMO. It's like giving a tank a sports car engine...all the drive and power, but lots of brute force/build on top? haha


Yeah I strongly disagree the bigger they are the harder they fall and it doesn't matter what a dog looks like when it's pulling hell poodles compete in WP. An athletic dog does not need to be bigger/stockier to pull more weight why do you think dog men bred them so little 30-40 lbs some even smaller for combat pulling a cart is a walk in the park for a game dog who was bred to get in the box and take a beating from his opponent . The game dog is the ultimate working dog they don't need anything from any other breed they have it all they are the total package. People who do that have the bigger is better mentality or they can't handle the game dog so they water it down with show blood.

A poodle pulling


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

You use to be able to dual reg your AKC dogs to the UKC HOWEVER you could not register your "pitbull" as an Amstaff..... Since the UKC closed its books your not crossing either now unless already done as off..April? May I don't honestly remember when they did that this year.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1685] :: COTTON'S BULLET (14XW-2XLG)

This dog is in dogs of all 3 UKC/AKC/ADBA .. Hell Plumbers Alligator is in all 3, DONE RIGHT its not a problem.. The problem is everyone tries to perfect perfection... Bahh do it the way that has been proven to work.. Am Staffs come from selectivly picked APBTs. (period) Do I think Smo Joe should breed in a horrible mannered game dog to add drive, NO; he really shouldn't be breeding. Should these people who have produced well bred AmStaffs from intertwining the lines of both show and work stock such as Tacoma, Gaff, ruffian, RE, so on and so on? Its always BYBs that promote an already popularized idea; so they get it from somewhere, somewhere the public is misinformed. IMO you should be able to have dogs in all 3 if they fit in all the standards, however to be a reg APBT I believe the dog must be game bred(sound bloodlines and ped stack work) to be an APBT the dog at minimum should have proven parents or grand parents, really the dog should be shipped outside the country and proven then returned as a bonafide APBT. Colby dogs of his yard are registered all 3 ways JFYI


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1685] :: COTTON'S BULLET (14XW-2XLG)
> 
> This dog is in dogs of all 3 UKC/AKC/ADBA .. Hell Plumbers Alligator is in all 3, DONE RIGHT its not a problem.. The problem is everyone tries to perfect perfection... Bahh do it the way that has been proven to work.. Am Staffs come from selectivly picked APBTs. (period) Do I think Smo Joe should breed in a horrible mannered game dog to add drive, NO; he really shouldn't be breeding. Should these people who have produced well bred AmStaffs from intertwining the lines of both show and work stock such as Tacoma, Gaff, ruffian, RE, so on and so on? Its always BYBs that promote an already popularized idea; so they get it from somewhere, somewhere the public is misinformed. IMO you should be able to have dogs in all 3 if they fit in all the standards, however to be a reg APBT I believe the dog must be game bred(sound bloodlines and ped stack work) to be an APBT the dog at minimum should have proven parents or grand parents, really the dog should be shipped outside the country and proven then returned as a bonafide APBT. Colby dogs of his yard are registered all 3 ways JFYI


Thank you, I totally agree on that. Hell, I prefer proven females also. Too many people on these forums put down other incarnations of the "Pitbull" but their TRUE APBT doesn't have a proven dog no closer than 3 or 4 generations back.
On another note, did anyone see this video of a Bull terrier and bull. I used to have no respect for the Spuds Dog but now I'm a little more impressed.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Yeah I strongly disagree the bigger they are the harder they fall and it doesn't matter what a dog looks like when it's pulling hell poodles compete in WP. An athletic dog does not need to be bigger/stockier to pull more weight why do you think dog men bred them so little 30-40 lbs some even smaller for combat pulling a cart is a walk in the park for a game dog who was bred to get in the box and take a beating from his opponent . The game dog is the ultimate working dog they don't need anything from any other breed they have it all they are the total package. People who do that have the bigger is better mentality or they can't handle the game dog so they water it down with show blood.
> 
> A poodle pulling


To each his own. All I know is that there are pitterstaffs that have proved themselves as WP dogs. Also there are people that use pitterstaffs for catch/hog dogs...I know you don't agree with the crossing of the two. But there are people that have done it properly and had much success with it. Like any dog breed...it was a mixing of different dogs to acheive a desired dog. And it's still done today by some...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes wingman I know it's done but just because it's done does not make it ok or right. I understand people do it but I will never agree with it . Any game dog owner, fancier, or enthusiast I have ever spoken to about this subject would agree crossing game blood into show blood ruins breeds and bloodlines and is completely unnecessary. So we can agree to disagree.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1685] :: COTTON'S BULLET (14XW-2XLG)
> 
> This dog is in dogs of all 3 UKC/AKC/ADBA .. Hell Plumbers Alligator is in all 3, DONE RIGHT its not a problem.. The problem is everyone tries to perfect perfection... Bahh do it the way that has been proven to work.. Am Staffs come from selectivly picked APBTs. (period) Do I think Smo Joe should breed in a horrible mannered game dog to add drive, NO; he really shouldn't be breeding. Should these people who have produced well bred AmStaffs from intertwining the lines of both show and work stock such as Tacoma, Gaff, ruffian, RE, so on and so on? Its always BYBs that promote an already popularized idea; so they get it from somewhere, somewhere the public is misinformed. IMO you should be able to have dogs in all 3 if they fit in all the standards, however to be a reg APBT I believe the dog must be game bred(sound bloodlines and ped stack work) to be an APBT the dog at minimum should have proven parents or grand parents, really the dog should be shipped outside the country and proven then returned as a bonafide APBT. Colby dogs of his yard are registered all 3 ways JFYI


Firehazard .. You tell me a dog man in this day and time who register's his game dog with the any registry the one's I know don't register there dogs they keep hand written pedigree's they don't leave paper trails ... Or better yet any dog man who would back up a game dog to a damn staffordshire terrier??? Dog men damn sure won't breed a proven game dog or any game bred dog to a show dog. That's laughable..... The only people who do this are SHOW dog owner's and BYB's.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> All I know is there are MANY game dogs registered in all 3.. Pedigree searches will reveal such...


Yeah game dogs from way back when ... They registered them that way back then but not in this day and time registries have changed the way they do things so it's not even possible anymore to register that way. Plus dog men today don't register their dogs they keep hand written pedigree's.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

> Todays terms and ideas are all Fkd as it is.. NO one listens to the men of old; THE ORIGINAL AM STAFF was from select GAME stock dogs the peds show this, there are boudreaux Am Staffs and so on and so forth Colby/Heinzel dogs in AKC/ADBA/UKC.. All the best AMSTF lines still hold on to as much of that original game style dog as possible Tacoma, and so on..
> 
> IMO.. Show dogs should still come from selecting the picture perfect dog from game/working stock.. JMO Pitterstaff? WHAT? sorry I don't do new terms very well, APBTs can and are registered as AKC AMSTAFF as well.. Have crossed from ADBA/UKC into AKC every since ever since.. Colby, Nebbletts, Tudors, Corvino, the list is endless.. BECAUSE THE SHOW DOG ORIGINATED FROM THE SOUND GAMEDOG.. They will always need the APBT but the APBT doesnt need the AMstaff. Does that make sense? Game dogs are bred to be SOUND and so we must cull undesired traits. Unllike people who just breed show dogs to show dogs breeding for looks, a quote from Heinzel comes to mind, Heinzels rollin over in his grave; ironic lots of his blood in the AMstaff lines.
> __________________





> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1685] :: COTTON'S BULLET (14XW-2XLG)
> 
> This dog is in dogs of all 3 UKC/AKC/ADBA .. Hell Plumbers Alligator is in all 3, DONE RIGHT its not a problem.. The problem is everyone tries to perfect perfection... Bahh do it the way that has been proven to work.. Am Staffs come from selectivly picked APBTs. (period) Do I think Smo Joe should breed in a horrible mannered game dog to add drive, NO; he really shouldn't be breeding. Should these people who have produced well bred AmStaffs from intertwining the lines of both show and work stock such as Tacoma, Gaff, ruffian, RE, so on and so on? Its always BYBs that promote an already popularized idea; so they get it from somewhere, somewhere the public is misinformed. IMO you should be able to have dogs in all 3 if they fit in all the standards, however to be a reg APBT I believe the dog must be game bred(sound bloodlines and ped stack work) to be an APBT the dog at minimum should have proven parents or grand parents, really the dog should be shipped outside the country and proven then returned as a bonafide APBT. Colby dogs of his yard are registered all 3 ways JFYI


Don't quote me if your gonna take me outta context; This is all facts, and I already said what you stated just in diferent terminology. To pull one line out of a paragraph to read out of context changes the entire meaning that can be infered or interpreted. I said everything pretty clearly and I do not think AM Staff blood belongs in APBT stock but I believe APBT blood belongs in AM Staff stock, made that clear. ITs the game bred APBT that is more sound mentaly and athletically its the source of so many coveted attributes by dog fanciers thus how every one tries to perfect perfection.. I also mentioned I don't know what todays dog men are doing I don't mean the legends still kickin it, I mean the wanna be dog men that ignore all the guidelines, there wouldn't be HA in either stock if done right and show stock would come from the elite working stock if done right, OR the show stock is MISREPRESTATING the breed APBT.. only game bloodlines belong registered as APBT JMO made that clear too. I laugh because every time you have tried to call me out, your saying what I just said; the diference is I blame everyone including you and myself, because non of us are perfect however we all know the guidelines to get there don't we? Just food for thought. Primo, Braddock, etc were pitterstaffs? cause they went both ways.. You can't perfect perfection and changing registery requirements doesn't change the truth of the make up of the dog, it only covers it up with red tape creating a new perspective, unfortunately.. People like to believe the lies they tell themselves. I have a good understanding of genetics and have proven to folks who disbelieved you can take a ADBA/AKC dog and wash it out in the APBT game dog blood or that APBT added to AmStaff would only improve, because the CORE of the AMSTAFF DNA is APBT.. my crayons are nubs, gotta go.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

fishinrob said:


> Thank you, I totally agree on that. Hell, I prefer proven females also. Too many people on these forums put down other incarnations of the "Pitbull" but their TRUE APBT doesn't have a proven dog no closer than 3 or 4 generations back.
> On another note, did anyone see this video of a Bull terrier and bull. I used to have no respect for the Spuds Dog but now I'm a little more impressed.
> 
> YouTube - Bull VS dog


yeah I used to promote BT to ppl who thought they wanted an APBT now I promote RE type dogs as well, but I still promote BTs to ppl who think they want a "pit".. LOL I love this video..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> Don't quote me if your gonna take me outta context; This is all facts, and I already said what you stated just in diferent terminology. To pull one line out of a paragraph to read out of context changes the entire meaning that can be infered or interpreted. I said everything pretty clearly and I do not think AM Staff blood belongs in APBT stock but I believe APBT blood belongs in AM Staff stock, made that clear. ITs the game bred APBT that is more sound mentaly and athletically its the source of so many coveted attributes by dog fanciers thus how every one tries to perfect perfection.. I also mentioned I don't know what todays dog men are doing I don't mean the legends still kickin it, I mean the wanna be dog men that ignore all the guidelines, there wouldn't be HA in either stock if done right and show stock would come from the elite working stock if done right, OR the show stock is MISREPRESTATING the breed APBT.. only game bloodlines belong registered as APBT JMO made that clear too. I laugh because every time you have tried to call me out, your saying what I just said; the diference is I blame everyone including you and myself, because non of us are perfect however we all know the guidelines to get there don't we? Just food for thought. Primo, Braddock, etc were pitterstaffs? cause they went both ways.. You can't perfect perfection and changing registery requirements doesn't change the truth of the make up of the dog, it only covers it up with red tape creating a new perspective, unfortunately.. People like to believe the lies they tell themselves. I have a good understanding of genetics and have proven to folks who disbelieved you can take a ADBA/AKC dog and wash it out in the APBT game dog blood or that APBT added to AmStaff would only improve, because the CORE of the AMSTAFF DNA is APBT.. my crayons are nubs, gotta go.


The APBT blood ONLY belongs in show dog's if it's back when they were the same breed meaning going back so many generations to find it. Today's Amstaff's that's a different story and that's what we are discussing the Amstaff has been bred for the show ring for about 80 years now and there is no way in hell your going to convince me that you should breed a show dog to a game dog in this day and time to improve the show dog. I am not trying to call you out this is how I understood your post ... If your saying that in today's time the show dog needs APBT/ game blood in it to improve the Amstaff show lines I completely disagree with that. I don't think it's ok today to take a proven game dog from game bloodlines and back it up to a show dog/ AKA Amstaff.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> The APBT blood ONLY belongs in show dog's if it's back when they were the same breed meaning going back so many generations to find it. Today's Amstaff's that's a different story and that's what we are discussing the Amstaff has been bred for the show ring for about 80 years now and there is no way in hell your going to convince me that you should breed a show dog to a game dog in this day and time to improve the show dog. I am not trying to call you out this is how I understood your post ... If your saying that in today's time the show dog needs APBT/ game blood in it to improve the Amstaff show lines I completely disagree with that. I don't think it's ok today to take a proven game dog from game bloodlines and back it up to a show dog/ AKA Amstaff.


Any dog JMO any dog that is a "pit bull" or is a direct descendant of a game dog such as this case that still is refered to as pit bull and other than the heavy inbreeding practices of more like the last 40 years have the AMstaff and APBT really seperated the most, all those names I mentioned as we know were both and if we can still have a pure Hemphill dog, then Im sure working AMST lines Tacoma/Corvino EXAMPLE and those RARITIES that I still disbelieve must exist, its just a matter of statistics..however I have been proven wrong by seeing those game bred AMST granted they are just tighlty bred black nosed black skined APBTs IMO but the papers say.... LOL Larsaan OFRN have become basically OFRN am staffs as they have been bred under the same just for show guidelines and Norrod dogs are moving that away too because game dog enthusiasts are using OFRN less and less AS they are being bred to be bigger and cart pullers. I LOVE THE 25lbsers OFRN, JOCKO, and ZEBO are my favorites.. but if we look at what we have today we have diferent "breeds" in the APBY we call bloodlines ove 80 years of inbreeding/linebreeding individual canine traits is EXACTLY how you get a INDIVDUAL BREED.. Why I crossed heavy inbred jockoX3/redboy with heavy zebo/boudreaux.. have a hound looking bulldog vs a staffie looking bulldog mix the two and line em out and get a REAL BULLDOG looking BULLDOG long legs and reverse scissor bite (that led to the undershot jaw) because if we look at any one dogman who has made a "line" out of blending the lines the dogs all become individualized themselves.. . Eastern Timber wolves Alaskan Timber wolves Southern Red Wolves all wolves from the same stuff just line bred in local packs but still considered different species... SO in the grand scheme of genetics you are what you are PIT BULL that cannot be lost as the WOLF species take it closer canadian wolves and alaskan wolves diferent, the same, some are more cannibalistic than others.. REALLY they are all just bulldogs, some are game bred some are just dogs, but until conditioned and proven non are really APBTs, just registered as such. wasn't there some ruffian dogs with wins? Arent they Amstaff/APBT? NOW if you go to AmStaff Bully dogs and APBT bully dogs.. I WILL TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU...

I believe the dog in the show ring should represent the breed at its best in every attribute, just because we manipulate the way we understand the truth doesnt mean the truth is manipulated; its always there.. constant.. We should have ratting contests, and catch dog contests, and so on and so on.. WE ARE NOT CIVILIZED we rape the EARTH, technology has evolved to a higher state of conciousness but people have not, we are still dependent and naive as ever. A ratting contest is barbaric but dumping all of our tvs and sht on a 3rd world nation to let their kids play on and get cancer and sht thats not barbaric? Filling up a can of trash to fill in a beautiful valley thats not barbaric? bah... :flush:
Anyway ... if your gonna show an APBT it should be an APBT a PROVEN dog.. otherwise its a misrepresentation.. AmStaffs yeah bred for looks, but still APBT DNA, JMO


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Wingman said:


> Perhaps they were after the stockier build of the Amstaff with the drive and tenacity of the APBT. It seems like a reasonable cross IMO. It's like giving a tank a sports car engine...all the drive and power, but lots of brute force/build on top? haha


If they wanted a dog that was stockier but had the attributes of a gamedog, why not just get a mayday/barracuda dog? That line tends to throw larger gamedogs


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I truly believe that this mixing of blood has been committed by both game fanciers and show fanciers alike. When the laws pushed hard against dog fighting many game dog people looked to conformation. ADBA made a standard based on the attribute of the box champions. But game bred dogs tend to not through this type of correct pups, consistently. So even those game people looked for better conformation dogs. just as amstaff who where bred and shown in the ukc people thought they were laking some traits of those old game dogs and bred back to game lines. None the less it is for the most part still APBT blood just been selected differently for years. 
Doesn't the ADBA allow both UKC and AKC dogs to be registered with tem as APBT. Just a question?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

If the ADBA the sorce of pure breed old blood APBT allows Am staff t be registered how can it be as horrible as some may like it to sound.
American Dog Breeders Association


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

Kayo45 said:


> If they wanted a dog that was stockier but had the attributes of a gamedog, why not just get a mayday/barracuda dog? That line tends to throw larger gamedogs


If you're breeding and you want to produce a stockier dog, they breeder could breed in AmStaff. That's what I was saying, I mentioned nothing about pulling blood from stockier lines. But that makes you question, why are their lines stockier? Do they have AmStaff bred into them somewhere back in the day?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I need some more popcorn almost out LOL


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

there will allways be gamedogs back far in an amstaffs ped. there will never be any amstaffs in a real apbts ped.

imo, 90% of dogs shown as apbt are just staffs. the breeding hasnt concentrated on game lines for two long.

if there are no game dogs in the ped upto the fourth gen its just a staff. after the fourth i dont care waht its says unless i want to "name the line". jmo.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

junkyard said:


> there will allways be gamedogs back far in an amstaffs ped. there will never be any amstaffs in a real apbts ped.
> 
> imo, 90% of dogs shown as apbt are just staffs. the breeding hasnt concentrated on game lines for two long.
> 
> if there are no game dogs in the ped upto the fourth gen its just a staff. after the fourth i dont care waht its says unless i want to "name the line". jmo.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

IMO most Gamedog people mistake game dogs for real APBT. APBT is a breed there Gamedog is a type of APBT. so there for there will always APBT in amstaff blood and there will always be gamedog blood way back in the peds of amstaffs. But in gamedogs well we will never know because "real dogmen use only paper peds. Oh and if you have difference of opinions the dogmen will have nothing to do with you.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The game dog is NOT a TYPE of dog it is the American Pit bull Terrier any thing else is just a pit bull .... Pit bull is a term used by the general public to label a dog as a pitbull TYPE. There are many breeds that fall under the pit bull umbrella. There is however only ONE American Pit bull Terrier breed and that is the Game Dog/Game bred dog which should stem from generations of proven game dogs ONLY and should have game tested proven dogs within the first 4 generations.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Tant, Greenwood, and a few others led me to the right path with my Jocko dog, Hooch, and what you just said; is exactly what Im saying... _



Just because you have American Indian blood doesn't make you an "Indian"; that is determined by your spirit..

Click to expand...

_ This topic we have is the same context.. May have game dog blood, may be game bred, but your not a real APBT until proven... SO my point is valid. If an APBT is taken to an AmStaff the FOUNDATION blocks to an AMstaff the APBT genes that are alike will resurface as DomRes. Truth is truth no matter what laws and revisions come about to confuse the truth, and you some it up in 3 lines.. THANKS Junkyard


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Wingman said:


> If you're breeding and you want to produce a stockier dog, they breeder could breed in AmStaff. That's what I was saying, I mentioned nothing about pulling blood from stockier lines. But that makes you question, why are their lines stockier? Do they have AmStaff bred into them somewhere back in the day?


Is that a serious question?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sadie said:


> The game dog is NOT a TYPE of dog it is the American Pit bull Terrier any thing else is just a pit bull .... Pit bull is a term used by the general public to label a dog as a pitbull TYPE. There are many breeds that fall under the pit bull umbrella. There is however only ONE American Pit bull Terrier breed and that is the Game Dog/Game bred dog which should stem from generations of proven game dogs ONLY and should have game tested proven dogs within the first 4 generations.


Breed is the "family of dog it has little to do with how game a dog is. So the Breed of american Pit Bull Terrier cover the ones bred only from this blood. Not just the dogs that are Game. You may chose to only breed tested dogs but for those of use who can not test dogs we will take out APBT from true recorded ped. I believe every once in a while you can find game dogs of different breeds not just apbt so that would mean game dog is a type like a working GSD or other working stock. All iam saying is that I am tired of people telling me their dogs are more apbt than mine cause mine may not have tested ancestors close up. Apbt is a breed not an attitude.


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> Breed is the "family of dog it has little to do with how game a dog is. So the Breed of american Pit Bull Terrier cover the ones bred only from this blood. Not just the dogs that are Game. You may chose to only breed tested dogs but for those of use who can not test dogs we will take out APBT from true recorded ped. I believe every once in a while you can find game dogs of different breeds not just apbt so that would mean game dog is a type like a working GSD or other working stock. All iam saying is that I am tired of people telling me their dogs are more apbt than mine cause mine may not have tested ancestors close up. Apbt is a breed not an attitude.


Well whats the ped on your dog? Apbt is a breed but it does have bloodlines that are associated with the breed and all apbt bloodlines are gamelines


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Kayo45 said:


> Well whats the ped on your dog? Apbt is a breed but it does have bloodlines that are associated with the breed and all apbt bloodlines are gamelines


Oh sorry maybe I was misunderstood. my dog has game lines running through him though he is scatter breed he has many noteable dogs in his ped. but just because none of the up close dogs are tested that makes him not an apbt?


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> Oh sorry maybe I was misunderstood. my dog has game lines running through him though he is scatter breed he has many noteable dogs in his ped. but just because none of the up close dogs are tested that makes him not an apbt?


No, just a scatterbred dog. He is still an apbt but some will say it's cur bred with having so many untested dogs up front in the ped


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy4747 said:


> Oh sorry maybe I was misunderstood. my dog has game lines running through him though he is scatter breed he has many noteable dogs in his ped. but just because none of the up close dogs are tested that makes him not an apbt?


Rudy some people think in order for a game bred dog to be considered an APBT the dog should come from tested parent's or grandparent's ... I personally don't agree with that but there should be game proven dogs within the first 4 generations to be considered game bred. My Bogart comes from nothing but game dogs but because his parent's aren't game tested some might not consider him game bred.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=328954


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Rudy some people think in order for a game bred dog to be considered an APBT the dog should come from tested parent's or grandparent's ... I personally don't agree with that but there should be game proven dogs within the first 4 generations to be considered game bred. My Bogart comes from nothing but game dogs but because his parent's aren't game tested some might not consider him game bred.
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [328954] :: A'S BOGART


 That is a very well bred lil bulldog. I'd slap someone in the face if they said that wasn't an apbt LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LMAO !!!! Your silly Kayo (Thanks Bogart says I am a machobuck/maday puppy bring it on LOL) ... Yeah you tell bogart he isn't a bulldog he might piss on you HAHAHAHA.... He's sure pee'd on me before LOL


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Okay the only dogs in his ped that are game Champs start 5 generations and back. while I have you guys here this a little off subject but what do you guys know about Bob Nibllet and his dogs? What do you think?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy I don't know anything about those dogs. Maybe Kayo or Junkyard does.... Sorry I can't help with that one


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Cant help either


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I know a little about it its old blood. Neblett sorry for the misspelling before.


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Oh, here

Page 4. Famous Pitbull History


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks I know a bit bout the history of them just know very few people who have been around them. i a friend who knew Mr. Neblett and has dog tight bred from his stock I am going to see him tomorrow. But was just trying to get other opinions on them thanks. As allways it has been a plesure but I have to turn in. Talk to ya'll later.


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Sadie said:


> LMAO !!!! Your silly Kayo (Thanks Bogart says I am a machobuck/maday puppy bring it on LOL) ... Yeah you tell bogart he isn't a bulldog he might piss on you HAHAHAHA.... He's sure pee'd on me before LOL


LOL his gonna make those dogs proud when he grows up and do the r. kelly piss on you remix to the haters LMAO!!!!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

OMG LMFAO !!! Your way too funny Kayo45 hahahahahahah!!!! Thanks I am glad you like the little squirt I sure like him.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

Okay...AmStaff's started as APBT's. We can all agree on that. Hopefully. Well then at one point there was an APBT that was stockier. That dog was selectively bred to produce a new "breed", the AmStaff. So there will always be APBT blood way back in AmStaff lines, because that's where they started. Everyone says that the AmStaff was bred for show, but I'm sure there are many people who compete with there AmStaff's in other sports. The thing you guys seem to be saying is that the only thing that makes the AmStaff different than the APBt is the fact that they weren't meant for the box. But why does this matter now??? Unless you're putting your dog in the box, what does it matter? You guys keep saying that they need "proven" dogs within the first 4 generations. So in 20 years, are all the real APBT's going to be gone? Because unless you're supporting a dog fighter and purchasing "proven" stock from them, then according to your mentality the true APBT will die out. And will all become AmStaff's.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Wingman it only matter's because the game dog is still very much alive just because laws don't permit people to match dogs doesn't mean that people don't still do it. Remember it's still legal over sea's and in mexico and some even do it illegally. There are people breeding for the show ring and there are those few dog men left keeping bulldogs honest preserving gameness and breeding for the box.

Good read for you

True meaning of Gameness


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Wingman it only matter's because the game dog is still very much alive just because laws don't permit people to match dogs doesn't mean that people don't still do it. Remember it's still legal over sea's and in mexico and some even do it illegally. There are people breeding for the show ring and there are those few dog men left keeping bulldogs honest preserving gameness and breeding for the box.
> 
> Good read for you
> 
> True meaning of Gameness


That was a good read. But I'm done with this thread. Ya'll carry on. Everyone has there opinion on AmStaff x APBT crossing. You can't sway a purest of the breed. Like talking to a wall. X.X


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I love your lil dog Sadie, even gave you rep points on em, Im Jocko fan. I love dogs that are Heavy Jocko light on the redboy but all Jocko/redboy dogs have become a fad.. So I am doing something a lil diferent.. YOU HAVE A WELL BRED DOG WITH A PROVEN PEDIGREE but he is not not from proven parents just proven stock like my little 35lber here HoagieONLINE PEDIGREES :: [129856] :: J.B.'S BOZZ HOG

Good dogs well pedigreed APBTs, just not proven.. only papered. ANYWAY good topic always fun searching and finding out all the game dogs that went into Amstaff make up as late as the 80s.. crazy.. alot of Nebbletts in Amstaff stock, Corvino, Barneys Going Light, Plumbers Alligator, etc etc.. The difference is breeding ethics, my ethics are clear dogs should be sent outside the country proven and brought back.... Im not an Amstaff promoter, but I argue to prove myself wrong, everything I've stood on has been things I have issues accepting myself  however the truth is that lump in your throat thats like a rock to swallow.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks Firehazard  I enjoyed talking with you guys ... It's always nice to talk to people who have the same passion for the breed. I don't breed but I believe strongly in preservation and have much respect for the old dog men who worked so hard to give us what we have today. And that is one nice little pup! I like the ped too! :woof::goodpost:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Wingman said:


> That was a good read. But I'm done with this thread. Ya'll carry on. Everyone has there opinion on AmStaff x APBT crossing. You can't sway a purest of the breed. Like talking to a wall. X.X


HAHAHA Wingman I am just giving you  Don't mind us LOL .. I still respect your opinions. Even though we don't agree :hug:


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Wingman said:


> Okay...AmStaff's started as APBT's. We can all agree on that. Hopefully.


Come on, mate this is Go Pitbull! Nobody agrees on anything!

For what it's worth, I don't find the idea of pitterstaffs particularly offensive. If people are doing it for a purpose (whatever that purpose may be) and dogs are not produced and sold as something they're not then I'm not losing sleep over it.


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

The fourth generation comment in my post is just my personal interpretation of what i think an apbt is and should be. It is also a hell of alot of others, i personaly think that besides adding more confusion, once the pit is taken out then the pit should be taken out. Call them Yankee terriers something.

And just because it legally cant be done in your country it doesnt mean its the end of the game dog. There are plenty of other countries on this earth where the game dog is a part of life.
And please i dont need anyone go on about the 3rd world country babble like you do whenever its pointed out there is some places its legal. 
I know my geography and i know what sort of counties they are it doesnt mean they dont count because of their economic state[this is in relation to someones post from the other day when i mentioned it]


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

junkyard said:


> The fourth generation comment in my post is just my personal interpretation of what i think an apbt is and should be. It is also a hell of alot of others, i personaly think that besides adding more confusion, once the pit is taken out then the pit should be taken out. Call them Yankee terriers something.
> 
> And just because it legally cant be done in your country it doesnt mean its the end of the game dog. There are plenty of other countries on this earth where the game dog is a part of life.
> And please i dont need anyone go on about the 3rd world country babble like you do whenever its pointed out there is some places its legal.
> I know my geography and i know what sort of counties they are it doesnt mean they dont count because of their economic state[this is in relation to someones post from the other day when i mentioned it]


:goodpost: yep yep


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I would still like to know if amstaff and apbt mix to make mutts then why does the ADBA allow registering of AKC amstaffs?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Rudy4747 said:


> I would still like to know if amstaff and apbt mix to make mutts then why does the ADBA allow registering of AKC amstaffs?


I believe we answered that; it may take a rake to pull it out!


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

In the end, none of it matters. APBT's, Bully's, Amstaffs or any other branch of these dogs. Do your homework and you'll find what you're looking for. Papers do not make the dog. Theres a farm up here in northern Mi. that has been in the pitbull game for 40 years plus. No dogs are registered and they keep their own records. Nothings ever for sale, it's for love of the breed not the cash. I would love a pup off them


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

well i asked the question and never saw the answer. i feel like the end of this breed will come because of those tight lipped dogmen who keep there own records and stay tucked away from other poeple who love the breed.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

AmStaffs had the chance to regain the APBT name back in the day; the fanciers and enthusiasts had spent time and money and actually thought they had the REAL pit bull themselves already in the AMSTAFF.. OF COURSE OVER TIME.... 
ADBA game bred dogs haven't really changed still bred for mentality first, bloodlines 2nd and looks least; the game dog genes that are the foundation blocks for AMSTAFFS are resurfaced as Dominant Recessive, so the SHOW DOG really is washedout or used as a wash out because the CORE of the DNA in the dog is the same. Tacoma dogs bred to an ADBA corvino line for instance... OLD GENES will resurface, the ones of their building blocks in comon. I don't know how to explain it any better without the punic square..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy4747 said:


> I would still like to know if amstaff and apbt mix to make mutts then why does the ADBA allow registering of AKC amstaffs?


Because of there beginnings Rudy4747 they were once considered the same breed but 80+ years of breeding for the show ring has changed that why can't people accept what it is? People who own AKC American Staffordshire Terriers don't even want to register them with the ADBA or the UKC as APBT's they want to be able to register them as Amstaff's because Amstaff owner's just like most APBT owner's see them as a different breed now. All you have to do is talk to Amstaff owner's most of the one's I have spoken to and I have talked to MANY on Amstaff forums and offline will NOT dual register their AKC Amstaff's with the UKC/ADBA as APBT's because the registries have yet to acknowledge them as their own breed Amstaff!!! Doesn't mean that won't change. It's clear to both APBT and Amstaff owner's they are now two different breed of dogs. Some people just need to accept it and move forward.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

So if I took two lets say mayday dogs and bred them my own way for my own reasons then years from now you would consider them a different breed?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The mayday family would still be a APBT game bloodline unless it became tainted and watered down and destroyed by BYB's/show breeder's don't see that happening because it's still a very popular Game bloodLine and dog men are still actively breeding (preserving) this family of dogs for the box. But your mayday dog's after breeding so many generations WITHOUT game testing and proving your dog's in the box would be just another amstaff. Like junkyard said after 4 generations of no proven dog's it's no longer an APBT IMO


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## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

I've posted this before, but some may not have seen it. You have to remember were the AST came from, but like Tara said with over 80 years of breed the dogs are different and consistent in type. I disagree with Tara about AST not be DA. My interaction with a few AST breeds I know they have mostly hot dogs. Hot is much different that game. I don't know if there are any game AST's left.

The Tacoma Line was developed through the breeding activities of Charles Doyle of Winamac Indiana. The great dog, Tacoma Jack, was whelped in 1927. He was owned by Al Brown. Using Tacoma Jack and Brown's Judy, Mr. Brown produced a number of outstanding dogs. Several of these, including Tacoma Jack's Replica, were sent to Charles Doyle. Using Tacoma Jack's Replica and other Tacoma dogs, and with liberal infusions of Corvino blood through such great dogs as Corvino's Braddock and Corvinos's Shorty, Mr. Doyle produced a long line of courage and sound dogs. Some of the best included Ch. Young Joe Braddock, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster I, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster II, Ch. Kane Tacoma Blaze, and Ch. Tacoma All-A-Blaze. Ch. Tacoma Frivolous Sal, owned by Howard and Janice Hadley, won the National Specialty in 1954. Subsequently Tacoma crosses have been important in all other major AST lines.

Mr. Doyle, who was active in the National Club both as a board member and long-time Secretary, strongly believed in keeping the Staff as Game and Functional as possible. Of all the AST lines, the Tacoma dogs have easily the most outstanding record for courage and capability.

Taken from:
The American Staffordshire Terrier (The Little Red Book)
By Dr. Richard Pasco
Printed in 1977

Al Brown's Tacoma Jack was registered with the ADBA, UKC, as a Pit and the AKC as a Staff. 









Here's Tacoma Jack's Ped.
GR CH BROWN'S TACOMA JACK









John Fonseca on the left Al Brown of Modesto ,California of Tacoma Jack fame in the Middle and Howard Heinzel on the right.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Elvisfink said:


> I've posted this before, but some may not have seen it. You have to remember were the AST came from, but like Tara said with over 80 years of breed the dogs are different and consistent in type. I disagree with Tara about AST not be DA. My interaction with a few AST breeds I know they have mostly hot dogs. Hot is much different that game. I don't know if there are any game AST's left.
> 
> The Tacoma Line was developed through the breeding activities of Charles Doyle of Winamac Indiana. The great dog, Tacoma Jack, was whelped in 1927. He was owned by Al Brown. Using Tacoma Jack and Brown's Judy, Mr. Brown produced a number of outstanding dogs. Several of these, including Tacoma Jack's Replica, were sent to Charles Doyle. Using Tacoma Jack's Replica and other Tacoma dogs, and with liberal infusions of Corvino blood through such great dogs as Corvino's Braddock and Corvinos's Shorty, Mr. Doyle produced a long line of courage and sound dogs. Some of the best included Ch. Young Joe Braddock, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster I, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster II, Ch. Kane Tacoma Blaze, and Ch. Tacoma All-A-Blaze. Ch. Tacoma Frivolous Sal, owned by Howard and Janice Hadley, won the National Specialty in 1954. Subsequently Tacoma crosses have been important in all other major AST lines.
> 
> ...


Doug this is a very good and informative post. I guess I should restate my position what I should have said is that yes there are some Amstaff's who are DA but there are also many who are NOT. I agree DA and Gameness are completely two different traits and should never be compared or confused. From conversations I have had with Amstaff owner's who show their dog's in the AKC show rings DA is something that is frowned upon in a show dog judges in the AKC do not like to see it. Good Posting Doug + 1 coming your way


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> So if I took two lets say mayday dogs and bred them my own way for my own reasons then years from now you would consider them a different breed?


LoL no they would still be mayday dogs. Perhaps a shell of their former selves but still mayday dogs


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## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Sadie said:


> The mayday family would still be a APBT game bloodline unless it became tainted and watered down and destroyed by BYB's/show breeder's don't see that happening because it's still a very popular Game bloodLine and dog men are still actively breeding (preserving) this family of dogs for the box. But your mayday dog's after breeding so many generations WITHOUT game testing and proving your dog's in the box would be just another amstaff. Like junkyard said after 4 generations of no proven dog's it's no longer an APBT IMO


Tell em like it is girl


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Elvisfink said:


> I've posted this before, but some may not have seen it. You have to remember were the AST came from, but like Tara said with over 80 years of breed the dogs are different and consistent in type. I disagree with Tara about AST not be DA. My interaction with a few AST breeds I know they have mostly hot dogs. Hot is much different that game. I don't know if there are any game AST's left.
> 
> The Tacoma Line was developed through the breeding activities of Charles Doyle of Winamac Indiana. The great dog, Tacoma Jack, was whelped in 1927. He was owned by Al Brown. Using Tacoma Jack and Brown's Judy, Mr. Brown produced a number of outstanding dogs. Several of these, including Tacoma Jack's Replica, were sent to Charles Doyle. Using Tacoma Jack's Replica and other Tacoma dogs, and with liberal infusions of Corvino blood through such great dogs as Corvino's Braddock and Corvinos's Shorty, Mr. Doyle produced a long line of courage and sound dogs. Some of the best included Ch. Young Joe Braddock, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster I, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster II, Ch. Kane Tacoma Blaze, and Ch. Tacoma All-A-Blaze. Ch. Tacoma Frivolous Sal, owned by Howard and Janice Hadley, won the National Specialty in 1954. Subsequently Tacoma crosses have been important in all other major AST lines.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: hahahaha yep yep... thats what I'm saying.. :clap: GoodStuff..


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Kayo45 said:


> LoL no they would still be mayday dogs. Perhaps a shell of their former selves but still mayday dogs


So still APBT just not game bred?!?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Howard Heinzel.. "The day I start breeding for looks I will be sure to call them AMST that's surely what they'll be.. "

As soon as you no longer have a stream of proven dogs in the 4th minimum game bred dogs IMO 2nd and 3rd should be full of proven dogs JMO to be an APBT as APBT is a Function dog, should be in the working group, but still a function dog none the less. SO for some APBTs should all be game bred and proven, Im in this boat, that means all the others need to find a diferent name. Others believe that APBTs unless game bred are practically staffs.. IMO if you bred Mayday dogs to Lukane dogs and Tants and you only* BRED for looks color and conformation* you would have AMstaffs.. That post with the corvino blood being staff and game bred line of Tacoma dogs proves just that, Tacoma dogs still going strong today in the Amstaff world are they game bred? Not anymore, are they game dogs not anymore.. see what Im saying.. eventually you would turn the mayday line into black mouthed curs... LOL (scarcasm) APBT must be bred for game JMO for some that can only be done by [] standards left to us by the legends and for other countries they can still test dogs according to those standards. Theres no question as to who rules in [] and as supreme catch dogs. I've seen every catch dog used and compared to game bred dogs as catch dogs in Oklahoma and Hawaii, nothing surpasses a well game bred APBT


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I think you guys misunderstand my debate. It is not about gameness I have a understanding of gameness and a great deal of respect for it. My argument is in the fact that you would dismiss dogs not tested as apbt.
Breed; A group of animals or plants related by common ancestors and visibly same characters. such a group differentiated from the wild type under the influence of man.
The definition of breed states nothing of mentality having any baring on breed. So therefor the gamebred dog is not different breed than the show type apbt. Just differ in mentality. The amstaff only has different name because of the shallow people of the time.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

No mentality does not define a breed but purpose most certainly does ... The APBT was NEVER bred for the show ring it was bred for the box. No matter what you say to try and manipulate your ideals about gameness you cannot change the FACTS the the APBT was bred for the pit. Gameness is part of the breed's purpose. Without gameness you don't have a warrior a PIT dog. Every breed was created for a purpose the purpose of the APBT no matter the laws in this country have been and will always be the box. Retaining gameness is needed to maintain the purpose of the breed for which is was created by man.

Dog breeds are groups of closely related and visibly similar domestic dogs, which are all of the subspecies Canis lupus familiaris, having characteristic traits that are selected and maintained by humans, bred from a known foundation stock.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> No mentality does not define a breed but purpose most certainly does ... The APBT was NEVER bred for the show ring it was bred for the box. No matter what you say to try and manipulate your ideals about gameness you cannot change the FACTS the the APBT was bred for the pit. Gameness is part of the breed's purpose. Without gameness you don't have a warrior a PIT dog. Every breed was created for a purpose the purpose of the APBT no matter the laws in this country have been and will always be the box. Retaining gameness is needed to maintain the purpose of the breed for which is was created by man.
> 
> Dog breeds are groups of closely related and visibly similar domestic dogs, which are all of the subspecies Canis lupus familiaris, having characteristic traits that are selected and maintained by humans, bred from a known foundation stock.


:goodpost::clap: yes em'... a function dog for sure...


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I think you are forgetting that I love the game dogs and my next will be the best bred APBT I can find. Being new it is hard to come by the good dogs, because it kinda is a tight group of people to be involved with. I just think it is hard to say because people choose not to test the dogs they own that all of the sudden your dog is not APBT. Just to state I love gamedogs. And respect the dogmen out there how are going to test them I just might not be one of them. So I guess some poeple out there are just going to think my dog are not apbt. To me they are.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

I do not see the point, trying to make a 'hybrid' dog making out like its a breed, pitterstaff? wtf, google it, nothing comes up. just like a labradoodle


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Yeah sorry I think we got away from topic. Am-staffs should be kept separate. When i asked why does the ADBA allow them to still be registered it was because IMO they should not allow it.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

What is wrong with registrys? I am just baffled by the way they run, if its not a pure apbt from pure lines DONT reg it


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Miss APBT money talks the registries are all about the all mighty dollar. Until that changes or until people stop supporting them they will continue to register alligator's, snakes, and Leopards as APBT. LOL


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

ARGH sounds like our NZ registry post to the person owning it now. There is no fee on reging your dogs with the NZ reg now, but the thing is its done properly now, back in the day Ken would reg any dog that had a legs as a apbt just to make his wallet heavy.

piss me off


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

still legal in many countries.. should be old school.. dogs can come and go to these countries freely, like drinking in the air at 18 but not on the ground in the US, same context.. Plenty of room to have registerd APBTs and bonafide apbts.. or maybe just dogs until around 2 and proven then registered as an APBT.. ahhh. then we would have million dollar dogs and the world would see 90% contest dogs get better treatment than K9s. People would see these dogs growing up as unregistered pure breds private pedigrees than the BSL would be SOL.. Just food for thought: President Roosevelt BOTH of em had [] bred dogs, Teddy had one every where he went and so did FDR.. WTF??? So much for pride for American herritage.. bah...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

ANY GOVERNMENT BIG ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU ANYTHING YOU WANT, IS BIG ENOUGH TO TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING YOU'VE GOT."
Thomas Jefferson


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

miss, did you get that pm i sent you at the nz forum awhile ago about "that" dog?


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

Elvisfink said:


> I've posted this before, but some may not have seen it. You have to remember were the AST came from, but like Tara said with over 80 years of breed the dogs are different and consistent in type. I disagree with Tara about AST not be DA. My interaction with a few AST breeds I know they have mostly hot dogs. Hot is much different that game. I don't know if there are any game AST's left.
> 
> The Tacoma Line was developed through the breeding activities of Charles Doyle of Winamac Indiana. The great dog, Tacoma Jack, was whelped in 1927. He was owned by Al Brown. Using Tacoma Jack and Brown's Judy, Mr. Brown produced a number of outstanding dogs. Several of these, including Tacoma Jack's Replica, were sent to Charles Doyle. Using Tacoma Jack's Replica and other Tacoma dogs, and with liberal infusions of Corvino blood through such great dogs as Corvino's Braddock and Corvinos's Shorty, Mr. Doyle produced a long line of courage and sound dogs. Some of the best included Ch. Young Joe Braddock, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster I, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster II, Ch. Kane Tacoma Blaze, and Ch. Tacoma All-A-Blaze. Ch. Tacoma Frivolous Sal, owned by Howard and Janice Hadley, won the National Specialty in 1954. Subsequently Tacoma crosses have been important in all other major AST lines.
> 
> ...


DUDE WEIRD...but I used to work in Winamac, IN. And the town is only like a half hour north of me.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

This thread has been amusing.

80+yrs huh last time I checked it was only 2010 though we are near the end. Not that it much matters as genes can be manipulated through selective breeding bringing about changes in a short time period. It is that some want to scream others should stick to the facts when they don't go on facts.

As to the original topic there are a number of reasons, you'd have to know who was doing the breeding. Some is ignorance a lot of people don't know what they are breeding bloodline wise period. Take a look at the registered pups for sale by you average byb. You'll see what I mean. In some cases it is to try to gain improvement, I'm sure Bahamutt posted a good reply as to why a game type might be bred to a show type on another forum. These show dog start to lose attributes (including in their structure) which can be gained by crossing. There was also someone interested in a dog from me (though they didn't get a dog) because they wanted to add more agility to their agility dogs. AmStaffs are capable of doing agility obvious but build can effect speed and ability. 

Just because its done doesn't make it ok or right......sure.....and just because one doesn't agree with it doesn't make it wrong or some horrible thing.

I could really careless what others do with their stock that they feed and care for (unless they are jeopardizing my right to own dogs-irresponsible). 

AKC dogs are known by a different name, had they use the same name would there be such an issue? To a degree I'm sure just as the working Border Collie and many in the GSD will tell you the AKC show dogs are not true reps of the real breeds. One can understand this as they aren't doing their original work and lack the temperament and drives to do so. Not to mention the supposed physical breed type AKC dogs are bred to would hinder the work of their breed. I'm very much a working dog person. Though I won't hate on a show type breeder who is looking to actually better their stock. Not that it always works out that way lol. 

You have to ask yourself when you see those breedings (unless done by dogmen) wth did they get the gamebred dog in the first place? How do so many people end up with gameline dogs? Hmmmm its the dogmen selling pups to just anybody, those sort of peddler dogmen which are in part responsible for the breeds current state. They also make it possible for the pitterstaff dogs. 

One thing people need to consider is that not everyone who has Pits is a dig fighter. I don't think game dogs will completely die out, but the majority of APBT are being bred for other purposes you can see generations long of untested stock. Making them not to different from AmStaff. There will always be secretive dogmen but then there dogs don't make it to the GP. If one isn't getting their Pit from a commercial dogman or some one with gamelines they are getting a pet or show or whatever bred Pit Bull. 

I don't really have any stake in the matter as my dogs have little or no AmStaff (if you look in some game dog peds sometimes have a staff way back there). But I've had some with AST blood close up (i guess they were pitterstaff older staff/gamelines), though my dogs were more along the lines of looks, ability and drive overall of game bred dogs. Basically you couldnt look and say that dog has staff. There are game dogs / winners which are part staff out there. I've found dogs with staff blood to still be DA though I recognize that it different then gameness! So its beside the point.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Why would somebody cross game-bred dogs with show-bred dogs? I dunno, but I'm kinda glad it happens sometimes.

Viewing Pedigree Details for Gravity's Digital Rain Matrix - Bully Breed Resource

Jeep/Redboy on top, Lar-San on bottom. If both lines are sound and have something to contribute, I have no problem with it. We'll see how the closing of the UKC studbooks affects AmStaff x APBT breedings.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> and Norrod dogs are moving that away too because game dog enthusiasts are using OFRN less and less


How come every time I read this name on this site it is usually you posting it?
Way it reads it appears like you know him or something.
If you did you won't have posted this post. All I got to say is, don't bet your bank on it or what you know about the dogs like Yankee Boys' Ch. Gambler, Triple J's Ch. Dutchess, K.G. & Co's Ch. Red Dog or Delmar's Ch. Hagler.
Or dogs like Gr. Ch. Berry, Ch. Bobcat 2, etc. or any old blood that is still around.


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

*how about this*

you all have good different points of views.but sadie u went hard but i agree with what u said.but even if they were crossing for the bullier look ther are lines of the red dogs that are and were always bigger with thick bone.also some breeders will stud to anything with papers,but wont keep anything off of that litter.that might be thier hussle.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [145785] :: OCK'S PHYTON 1XL

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [270500] :: LIBERTY FARM'S BREW (AKA SOSEBBEE'S BREW)

would be a better representation of what you speak ^^^ ..

I do see OFRN smudged with Wildside dogs, Jocko/redboy, some others bolio and what not, on rare occasions; IN COMPARISON to how the OFRN was revered 10,20, yrs ago big difference to the previous 4 decades let alone the milinea. OF course being a coniseur of game dogs, I wouldn't mention any other than Norrod himself, your always looking for some sht to stir TX; If I acted like I knew him, I would say, back when I was drinking a glass of tea and doing some back porch pickin, we discussed a dog or two.. I havent said anything of the sorts, alright spazz?? Quit taken what I say out of context its obvious you don't really take in whats being said,when you reply with mindless vindictive rederict. You've taken less and less and turned it into not any.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Sadie said:


> [email protected] girl those things are so funny ....
> 
> Now to answer the question there is absolutely NO reason and I repeat NO reason for a breeder to ever cross show lines into game lines. Both dog's serve an entirely different purpose an Amstaff has nothing to offer the Game bred dog and vice versa. People who do this are ruining breed's and dog's and should be culled from the planet.... It is never ok or accepted by fancier's of either breed to do this. I know people do it but it doesn't make it right. Amstaff's should remain Amstaff's and Gamedogs should remain Gamedogs and any fancier or enthusiast of the either breeds will agree with me this is frowned upon and shouldn't be done period!! This is a prime example of why the bully has so many issues now.


What about Colby they are heavy with Patton and Ruffian


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Colby are heavy with Colby. Thats why they are called Colby. Remember the first group of Amstaffs were in fact Colby bulldogs not the other way round.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

junkyard said:


> Remember the first group of Amstaffs were in fact Colby bulldogs not the other way round.


:goodpost:


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

In a day and age where people do not game test dogs, why is it so bad to breed APBT back to his cousin?
In reality most pits now-a-days are all show and little go anyway.
No offense.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Because APBT's are still game tested and preserved for their original purpose. Just because it's illegal here in the US to game test dogs doesn't mean it's illegal elsewhere. And just because it's illegal doesn't mean you don't have people breaking the laws to game test their dogs. I see no reason to cross the two .. I also don't see a reason to breed untouched APBT's over and over again without game testing being done. The closer the better but anything after 4 generations without any game tested dogs in the pedigree is basically an Amstaff anyway.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

IMHO- the current situation in the US is turning the APBT to Amstaff's. Sure, there are some testing illegally, but they are getting cracked down on bad. It's forcing many to go deeper underground. You have to trust your dogman. Not to mention- best yards are closed with private peds and good luck getting your hands on a dog fromthem. Those are not dogs for the average Joe. Now I would say this- I'm sure EVERY site gets watched or observed. It's just a matter of time. The best quality apbt will no longer be in the US. It's a sad thing to see- 
Small yards- close circles- non registered dogs. Only chance the true apbt has but to those who plan to show in a ring or compete will have a hard time registering or getting their hands on them. 
More places are attempting to place a ban on them- or rules to own them. Even a town near me is having issues with "pitbulls" and the police have been involved.

Ok- I'm done rambling-
I guess what I'm saying- an apbt from unproven stock becomes an amstaff- 
It's harder to get proven stock so, eventually, we will end up with amstaffs or we have to import from other countries( provided we are still allowed to own them)


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

^^^ Mach0 gotta spread the love, but you hit the nail on the head; Sadie I agree with this as well, truth to both... I feel the same way which was for my comment. I know there are still tru []bred dogs out there and thats the stock for me, I need a dog that can play the part not just look the part.. We got critters out here that demands a REAL working dog.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

^ thank you


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Use it or loose it ... that's what it all comes down to. For those who are preserving these dogs to their true purpose are breeding and adhering to what makes the APBT an APBT = Gameness.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Use it or loose it ... that's what it all comes down to. For those who are preserving these dogs to their true purpose are breeding and adhering to what makes the APBT an APBT = Gameness.


Agreed- just hard to come by in my opinion.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Mach0 said:


> Agreed- just hard to come by in my opinion.


It's hard to come by if you don't have access to the inner circles of those dog men who are still preserving the breed for the box.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Sadie said:


> It's hard to come by if you don't have access to the inner circles of those dog men who are still preserving the breed for the box.


:thumbsup:


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## HappyPuppy (Oct 11, 2007)

OT - but what is considered a 'generation' in dogs... 5 years? (or just whenever dog is bred)?


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## itainteasybeingme (Feb 9, 2011)

it's comical that u think all game dogs can beat all amstaffs. they probably bred that amstaff in so they could have more a barnstorming dog. u act like if u mate a gamedog with a proven amstaff, some of the pups won't come out game. those dog on dog genes are still there. alot of 65lb amstaffs can beat 50-55lb game 100% pits. now let's hear the pound for pound talk but pits have to get bigger or they will go extinct. countries like russia, afghanistan, turkey, and mexico are completely changing the game with other breeds. if pits want to remain king of dogs, size, intelligence must be accounted for, not just game.


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## itainteasybeingme (Feb 9, 2011)

Sadie said:


> It's hard to come by if you don't have access to the inner circles of those dog men who are still preserving the breed for the box.


some people are interested in having the baddest dog not the baddest dog at that weight.

p.s. colby is not for the box. colby is a hopefull outcross at best. jmho


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## scparrish (Jan 8, 2010)

they don't have to get bigger, there is a reason they are the size they are changing that is changing the breed, colby dogs are an entirely different discussion and it is quite the debate. apbt's are the baddest dog in whatever size they come in, time and history have proven this.


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## itainteasybeingme (Feb 9, 2011)

scparrish said:


> they don't have to get bigger, there is a reason they are the size they are changing that is changing the breed, colby dogs are an entirely different discussion and it is quite the debate. apbt's are the baddest dog in whatever size they come in, time and history have proven this.


i've been seeing a lot of pits losing to CAO,bully kutta, and kangals online. the one time the pit won, it was at least 60lbs.

i mentioned colby because of the comment that people aren't breeding for the box but it was mentioned as a blood line of choice.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

itainteasybeingme said:


> some people are interested in having the baddest dog not the baddest dog at that weight.
> 
> p.s. colby is not for the box. colby is a hopefull outcross at best. jmho


Tell that to the dog men still breeding the Colby Family dogs for the box ... And producing successful winner's I might add ...


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## scparrish (Jan 8, 2010)

gotcha I highly doubt that colby dogs are the line of choice anymore


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## itainteasybeingme (Feb 9, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Tell that to the dog men still breeding the Colby Family dogs for the box ... And producing successful winner's I might add ...


fragile bodies and they might crack an egg with their jaw pressure, but i heard they can add intelligence.


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## itainteasybeingme (Feb 9, 2011)

the dog would have to be mentally retarded for me to add colby


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

itainteasybeingme said:


> the dog would have to be mentally retarded for me to add colby


I smell a troll....come here, wake up a dead thread, and just talk smack. Sounds like someone is looking to stir the pot...


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## itainteasybeingme (Feb 9, 2011)

Wingman said:


> I smell a troll....come here, wake up a dead thread, and just talk smack. Sounds like someone is looking to stir the pot...


the facts are a troll. ok u won't hear any more out of me. the pitterstaff irks me cuz that pitterstaff can handle many true pitbulls. won't hear any more truth from me on this subject.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

scparrish said:


> gotcha I highly doubt that colby dogs are the line of choice anymore


Well maybe you should read up is all I can say because you wrong....


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