# Extinction of the breed.



## Atheist (Apr 27, 2009)

The recent posts about pocket pits and huge 148 pound pits, sadly reminded me that the true American Pit Bull Terrier as a breed (if it ever really was a breed) is rapidly becoming extinct. The notion that fighting dogs can be illegal and you can still breed pit bulls is a contradiction. Sure there is still dog fighting and still some close game bred relatives, but lets face you can't preserve the breed and be against dog fighting. The tow scenarios are mutually exclusive. Pitbulls today are anything people want to make them as long as they remotely resemble what they once were, which is exactly what they never were. 

It's fortunate and unfortunate, we have evolved to abhore the fighting of dogs but still love everything that it produced in a dog. I looked at the photos of that 148 pound mastiff mutt and thought about how a game 40 pounder would probably finish that dog off in minutes. To slow to get out of the way, and too big to have any real stamina, it would probably just get grabbed by the throat too quickly to defend itself, then just tire out while a game dog just held on till the end. 

Its a circular discussion as now its a beauty contest based on personal appearance preferences. Too bad really but a fact of life. Anybody who really understands the real breeding past has to just look at todays blue nose pit, pocket pits, ambullys, giant pits, polka dot pits, pink pits, and the rare goofball bloodline lavendar brindle white tipped tail pits and laugh. 

Too bad I do know I have a very loyal, loving, smart and what I consider to be a good looking dog. If you ask me what he is, my real truthfull answer is who knows, I rescued him. He is probably a mutt. A formidable one but beyond that how can I know since I am not going to let him fight ( as eager as he may be to). 

It's all kinda of sad but true. You can look at a "pitbull" and sort of tell just how far removed they are from real game bred dogs. Certainly some are still much closer to that ancestor than others. Some you can't tell for sure. But when you see some of these freaks you know for sure they are nothing like, nor are remotely similar to what a pitbull was.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

:goodpost:
wonderful post!
total understand where your coming from!


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## Hirihat (May 5, 2009)

While I can understand your point, I can't seem to come up with any sympathy for those who miss the good ol' days of dog fighting.....there are better options than savagery. Yes, we all must acknowledge that this background and history has given us the breed we love but I don't see putting animals in a pit as showing them love in return.....


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

thats all it wil be now is history and background, so the _game_ APBTS will soon no longer be game type PITbulls, with all these bullys, people crossing an APBT with another breed, and all popping up all over the show the true APBT *may* soon be no longer.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I must say that this is a great post Athiest.


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## lazarus2345 (Dec 29, 2008)

I think that is a great post, I've been thinking along those lines and you expressed it way better than I ever could.


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## Triniboy18 (Mar 22, 2009)

VERY ture this too has been on my mind..
I dont think that it wil be gone thats why some breeders are now starting to get real personal to the people they sell there dogs to. 
MAKES SENSE


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Triniboy18 said:


> VERY ture this too has been on my mind..
> I dont think that it wil be gone thats why some breeders are now starting to get real personal to the people they sell there dogs to.
> MAKES SENSE


It doesn't matter who you sell them to its the fact if you aren't fighting dogs you are not continuing what the APBT once was.

Due to fighting being illegal this breed is left to be used in show rings and weight pull and various other sports, but none of those are the actual test of gameness which is what this breed is developed around.

But legal sports are the only thing left for maintaining anything close to what the breed originally was and yes now the breed is based on looks and drive rather than gameness.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Both Atheist and AP13 hit the nail directly on the head!! Point being, the TRUE APBT will very soon be extinct b/c we find it inhumane and unethical to fight dogs, so what other way is there to prove we have true APBTs? We have created other outlets and venues to test the dog's drive, tenacity, determination... if you will.. but it doesn't come close to the real deal. At least not in any real dogman's mind. But, we have to abide by the laws of our country if we choose our freedom as opposed to being caged like zoo animals, so in turn, our beloved breed suffers, and soon the only thng we will have to remember the breed by are the memories and publications of dogmen from the past, and a dream to hold onto, and that's about it. But, breeders looking to stay as true to form as possible do their best to stick to the standards as far as size, temperament, etc and in this day and age, that's really all we can ask of them, right!? I maybe wrong, but that's the way I see it.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Species evolve to survive. The dogs must "evolve," if you will, to survive BSL. Welcome to America. I have to admit, I don't think that it's a bad thing.

We only know about dog fighters past through stories that we hear. As all stories passed through time, they are glorified and manipulated and tweaked to make them more interesting. We hear that dog fighters from yester-year would pick up a dog to avoid losing the dog, if for no other reason than to protect their investment. If this is true, where does the term "dead game" come from? Just like the losers who fight dogs today, these people were in it for the money. They created a breed we love, and I can appreciate that, but that doesn't mean I'll ever love what they did. 

Maybe my dogs are game, maybe they're not. I'll never know, and I'm fine with that.


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## Grimes (Apr 29, 2009)

smokey_joe said:


> Species evolve to survive. The dogs must "evolve," if you will, to survive BSL. Welcome to America. I have to admit, I don't think that it's a bad thing.
> 
> We only know about dog fighters past through stories that we hear. As all stories passed through time, they are glorified and manipulated and tweaked to make them more interesting. We hear that dog fighters from yester-year would pick up a dog to avoid losing the dog, if for no other reason than to protect their investment. If this is true, where does the term "dead game" come from? Just like the losers who fight dogs today, these people were in it for the money. They created a breed we love, and I can appreciate that, but that doesn't mean I'll ever love what they did.
> 
> Maybe my dogs are game, maybe they're not. I'll never know, and I'm fine with that.


 Best post in this thread so far.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Hirihat said:


> While I can understand your point, I can't seem to come up with any sympathy for those who miss the good ol' days of dog fighting.....there are better options than savagery. Yes, we all must acknowledge that this background and history has given us the breed we love but I don't see putting animals in a pit as showing them love in return.....


Yes I can say the good old day of when fighting was legal! The breed was better back then and if you have the notion that these dogs fought to the death and were always mistreated you have seen to many movies and buy into that crap the HSUS and PETA promote.

If you truly know the breeds history and how fights were conducted you may not think of it as "savagery". Fights had rules and rarely a dog was killed while the fight was going on. when a dog curred out the fight was stopped. I could go on about how a fight was conducted but that is something you should educate your self on if you truly want to understand this breed.

Now yes the true APBT is going to die out because it is impossible to Game test a dog today. I know there are Game tested dogs out there but they are becoming rare. Gamebred dogs will also cease to exist since to be consider gamebred you need to have a game tested dog in the first 4 gen of a pedigree.

I agree that the breed will evolve since the original task is no long available for the dog. Now is that a good thing? I think not. This breed has evolved and look where it is today. Irresponsible breeding has made it a media monster. Back in the good old days HA not an issue.


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## Hirihat (May 5, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Yes I can say the good old day of when fighting was legal! The breed was better back then and if you have the notion that these dogs fought to the death and were always mistreated you have seen to many movies and buy into that crap the HSUS and PETA promote.
> 
> If you truly know the breeds history and how fights were conducted you may not think of it as "savagery". Fights had rules and rarely a dog was killed while the fight was going on. when a dog curred out the fight was stopped. I could go on about how a fight was conducted but that is something you should educate your self on if you truly want to understand this breed.
> 
> ...


Don't misunderstand me at all here....I am not some PETA freak or anything and yes, I realize a lot of what has been spewed forth about fighting is over-sensationalized crap and yes, I also realize there were some dogmen of yore who did truly love and care for their dogs.....but they were not the only ones fighting dogs. Nor were all matches stopped to prevent death back then just as they are not now. I do see animal fights precipitated by humans as savage. It is most definitely my opinion. I do not want to involved in any sort of animal fighting even if it is as you say and a rule-bound match with owners who love and care for their dogs and are only looking to maintain the gameness of the breed. I feel humans are far to savage to participate without the majority of the humans involved being involved for the wrong reasons.

I certainly agree with you about irresponsible breeding and the HA. I will also even agree that parts of my knowledge of the breed history are incomplete as I have not done a tremendous amount of reading regarding blood lines specifically. I am not trying to argue any of that at all. Just stating my opinion that I for one am glad dog fighting is illegal.


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

So frustrated, I typed out a long well planned post, spent nearly an hour researching and composing it, hit send, and it disappeared into cyber neverland! Long story short, both sides make valid points, but just as humanity evolves, and many still hold to their traditions, so can the APBT. The game bred fans will continue to breed and raise dogs that the dog men of the past would have been proud of, and the bully fans will breed gentle giants, who I would much prefer see the city thugs having than a game bred dog, (though anyone who wants a dog just for image shouldnt have a dog anyway, but bullies are safer to the neighborhood). I am much happier to see the game bred dogs in the capable hands of experienced men and women like those on this forum, than on every corner. It's not quantity, it's quality, and as long as there are still people who love the true APBT, there will be quality game bred (I guess later to be gamestyle) dogs. Every new breed stems from a careful mix of other breeds, and very rarely causes the demise of the original. The drive and intelligence of game bred dogs can be channeled into any number of other activities.


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## Grimes (Apr 29, 2009)

I cant see how anyone could support "game testing" a pitbull. Someone has to be mentally off if they want to see a pair of animals fight against each other for any duration of time, to the death or not.

If the extinction of the breed is because MOST people have grown past the savagery of dog fighting, I say its a great thing.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Hirihat said:


> I am not some PETA freak or anything


Never thought you were, we can agree to disagree, hows that


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## Tony G. (May 18, 2009)

why does it seem that a lot of people here wish fighting was still legal. I may be misreading some things and i see a few posts of people who are glad its illegal. I cant stand how people used to and still do fight these dogs. I do agree though that is what gave us this breed but i will never understand how a true Pit lover (which we have here) could ever justify "gametesting" if you truly want to "gametest" your pit, go hog hunting and use your immagination.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Tony G. said:


> why does it seem that a lot of people here wish fighting was still legal. I may be misreading some things and i see a few posts of people who are glad its illegal. I cant stand how people used to and still do fight these dogs. I do agree though that is what gave us this breed but i will never understand how a true Pit lover (which we have here) could ever justify "gametesting" if you truly want to "gametest" your pit, go hog hunting and use your immagination.


Please correct me if I'm wrong here... I don't think they meant that they personally want to game test, but they hope to aquire dogs who are strenously tested mind body and soul to preserve our breed. The breed has become so washed out now because of the laws and people breeding dogs and not knowing what the heck they are doing.... and with that we're not preserving the original desired traits of the dogs we have become to love.


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## Tony G. (May 18, 2009)

^ that is what i am hoping they mean i just want to make sure


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

oh yeah, hog hunting doesn't really prove gameness either... the boar isn't really a good match...also, your dog doesn't "fight" it till the end. You as the hunter have to finish the boar off.


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## Hirihat (May 5, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Never though you were, we can agree to disagree, hows that


very cool with that! I am actually that weirdo who appreciates opinions differing from mine more than the ones in agreement! LOL Keeps me learning! And to be honest, I feel you have a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience to share! Your posts, IMO, are passionate yet very educational without demeaning others. That's a difficult thing to do and very commendable in my opinion!

:cheers:


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## Tony G. (May 18, 2009)

i understand that with a hog it isnt a great match but then again most hunters use more than one pit against a hog and the pig wears armor a lot of the time to protect them. so it is some what of a game test. as far as the finishing it off with the hog. the pits when they fight dont fight to the death either so that is no effect.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Tony G. said:


> i understand that with a hog it isnt a great match but then again most hunters use more than one pit against a hog and the pig wears armor a lot of the time to protect them. so it is some what of a game test. as far as the finishing it off with the hog. the pits when they fight dont fight to the death either so that is no effect.


I don't hog hunt lol. I don't fight dogs either lol. Most dogs were not fought to the death, but sometimes the dogmen of yesteryears didn't know what the next moment was going to bring. To game test a dog is to find out if he/she will not give up... that meant that the dog had to fight for quite some time to actually prove the gameness... that's where I see that it wouldn't be compareable.

Also, dogs that were fought back then didn't make it to the books that we have to read today if they didn't make the cut and a name for themselves.


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## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

Good post OP!!


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## Tony G. (May 18, 2009)

neela i understand where you are coming from im not trying to fight with you or anything just trying to say that i think we need to come up with a better way then to wish we could still fight dogs.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Tony G. said:


> neela i understand where you are coming from im not trying to fight with you or anything just trying to say that i think we need to come up with a better way then to wish we could still fight dogs.


Nah I'm not arguing... just talkin lol. I am fine with my specimines ... i don't need gameness, i just want the drive, willingness to please, as well as a solid temperament.


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## K9Oahna (May 18, 2009)

smokey_joe said:


> Species evolve to survive. The dogs must "evolve," if you will, to survive BSL. Welcome to America. I have to admit, I don't think that it's a bad thing.
> 
> We only know about dog fighters past through stories that we hear. As all stories passed through time, they are glorified and manipulated and tweaked to make them more interesting. We hear that dog fighters from yester-year would pick up a dog to avoid losing the dog, if for no other reason than to protect their investment. If this is true, where does the term "dead game" come from? Just like the losers who fight dogs today, these people were in it for the money. They created a breed we love, and I can appreciate that, but that doesn't mean I'll ever love what they did.
> 
> Maybe my dogs are game, maybe they're not. I'll never know, and I'm fine with that.


Great post Smokey Joe. 
As we as a society "evolve" so must the dogs we breed. The dogs deserve better then to be injured or worse at our request. 
There are many breeds not just the APBT who's original application is no longer applicable and they to either have adapted to what society needs form them today or they will have to in order to survive.
The German Shepherd rarely herds sheep these days however they are finding other way to apply there loyalness and willingness to please an owner.
The APBT is not a dying breed but it will be unless it becomes a changing breed. BSL is not going to stop, Most Americans seem to thrive on fear and finding the boogie man. Some communities have found the boogie man int he APBT and as such the APBT will be persecuted unless we can change the way American's view this breed. The only way to do that is foster the loyalness and other wonderful attributes the APBT possesses (and I am discovering there are many) and letting go of a gaming past. 
I understand that this is a sad and troubling thought for some however in order to protect this breed from persecution and instinction I feel this is what must happen.
As I look at Koa gnawing away on his frozen kong and he looks up at me with his quizzical and hyper eyes I imagine him in the wrong hands of some one who does not understand him and who is not willing to learn. Some one who fears him simply because of an out dated breed description or the Michale Vicks of the world. i am not saying that Koa does not posses "gameness" I have no idea if he does or not. My job is to try as hard as I can to foster the love, the loyalty, the happiness that I see in him and *respect* the breeding behind him so that hopefully no one will ever know if he has game.
Whoa, sorry I didnt mean to carry on like that. I guess this noisy ball off muscle and energy is getting to me.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

K9Oahna said:


> Great post Smokey Joe.
> As we as a society "evolve" so must the dogs we breed. The dogs deserve better then to be injured or worse at our request.
> There are many breeds not just the APBT who's original application is no longer applicable and they to either have adapted to what society needs form them today or they will have to in order to survive.
> The German Shepherd rarely herds sheep these days however they are finding other way to apply there loyalness and willingness to please an owner.
> ...


Very good post,K9Oahna. I feel ya on this one!


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## CUTDOWNSKENNELS (May 18, 2009)

smokey_joe said:


> Species evolve to survive. The dogs must "evolve," if you will, to survive BSL. Welcome to America. I have to admit, I don't think that it's a bad thing.
> 
> We only know about dog fighters past through stories that we hear. As all stories passed through time, they are glorified and manipulated and tweaked to make them more interesting. We hear that dog fighters from yester-year would pick up a dog to avoid losing the dog, if for no other reason than to protect their investment. If this is true, where does the term "dead game" come from? Just like the losers who fight dogs today, these people were in it for the money. They created a breed we love, and I can appreciate that, but that doesn't mean I'll ever love what they did.
> 
> Maybe my dogs are game, maybe they're not. I'll never know, and I'm fine with that.


:goodpost:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

The breed is going to evolve with time due to them not able to do the original function. But along with that you are going to change the breed. The APBT of old will cease to exist and a new breed of dog will emerge. It depends on how you think of it good or bad. I personally think this is a bad thing since the breed I own will change in characteristics. I love my gamebred dogs and they can do thing in performance events that I have yet to see in a show or pet bred APBT. For those that have owned Gamebred dogs and show or pet dogs know what I am talking about. Don't get this me wrong I do not wish fighting was legal but I don't shun it. It was the reason we have our wonderful breed today. I embrace the past and look forward to the future.

For those that have only owned pet bulls or show lines dogs may never fully understand what a true gamebred APBT is like. Not saying that is bad but if that is all you have ever owned you may not truly understand the true nature of the APBT.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

If you can't test for gameness, how do you know the breed is changing? If you breed the dogs that were tested, and only breed the best of the best, then you're not losing anything except maybe gameness, and if you're not fighting that shouldn't matter.

The fact that dogs are no longer faught is not what is changing the breed. The fact that people over breed and breed irresponsibly is hurting the breed. This is not a problem solely with the APBT. This is a major problem with dogs in general. 

So, the question is how you connect ant-fighting laws to the problem of overbreeding and irresponsible owners. Because, these dogs were still pretty popular pets even before 1976.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


i got carried away lol


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

lol @ Neela lol!!


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## jeep lex (Jan 29, 2009)

is dog fighting wrong yes but is it as inhumane as we(those to young to be around then) have been brainwashed to beleive i dont think so, this is totaly opinion and belive me i dont condone dog fighting but to me a dog born extremely da is probably happiest in the box(aside from being with its owner) its like two ufc fighters getting in the cage because they simply enjoy fighting. i know you cant compare humans who act on free will and dogs who act on instinct but its the best analogy i can come up with. let the flame begin


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm not going to argue with that jeep because i completely agree. Neela has so much fire in her heart when she sees another dog...we had two yard accidents with her and you could see the pride in her eyes the entire time we were trying to split them up. I've honestly never saw her any happier in my life, but it made me sick to my stomach at the same time.


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## Atheist (Apr 27, 2009)

Wow I posted the thread yesterday and just checked back. I am pleased my post was thought provoking for some. I want to clarify that I am not suggesting we should keep dog fighting legal. I just believe that as a society we are movinig past this type of activity and that is probably good, as it is violent, inhumane and unnecessary. By the same token, we just have to face the fact that the game testing is what makes the breed and APBT's are exactly the same as AM Staffs when game breeding is removed. They are the decendents of fighting dogs but no longer bred fighting dogs. I am fine with this and just wanted to point out the reason why all these offshoot breed distinctions are basically irrevelant as far as our pets go because esentially pit bulls today are designer dogs just like most confirmation breeds. 

I would like to comment on dog fighting. I think dog fighting is too savage for my taste. I would have no interest in watching it and certainly not want a pet I loved to participate in it. That said, I can say a dog fight between two game pitbulls may not constitute animal cruelty. Surely breeding dogs for a physical beauty as a business can be cruel, as usually the business of dog breeding does not allow for the survival of substandard dogs. Breeders in business have been known to kill imperfect dogs to preserve their ideal of the breed. Any time animals become a business, whether it is rodeo, ranching, raising food, zoos, circus, breeding, horse racing, dog racing etc. the business necessity of weeding out non producers from good producers can be construed as cruel. 

It is really not the activity of dog fighting or horse racing that is cruel because these animals want to race and want to fight. After all that is what they enjoy, and have been bred and born to do. The cruelty lies in the treatment of these animals as money making property and not a loved pets. Some might even argue that not allowing an animal do what it wants to do instinctually, may be cruel in itself. I know this, you do not have to make a game dog fight, you have to take extrordinary steps to stop him from fighting. Allowing him to fight with a unwilling participant is cruel but just like human MMA fighters, two willing participants is sport not cruelty. You can argue that dog racing is a cruel practice but not allowing greyhounds to run is also cruel to them.

I just find the discussion, very interesting and it clearly points out the sport of dog fighting, and the practice of breeding game dogs is not a black and white as a lot of people want us to believe. There is a lot of grey area. Personally I believe there is no more purpose for truely game dogs any more, and am very happy with owning a descendent of this tradition without need to prove just how game he may or may not be. Therefore the discussion of if he is a real pitbull or not is a moot point. Preserving the breed while being for the abolition of dog fighting or game testing as it is reffered to, is a contradiction that cannot be resolved. 

I dissagree with a lot of people who want to place human emotions, tastes, and feeling to animals. I laugh because projecting their tastes onto animals can't be done sensibly. Just because a person finds fighting distasteful, does not mean an animal does. I would never run down a cat and eat his intestines while he is dying but I am sure a dog finds this very enjoyable. Is it cruel? I guess nature is cruel but at the same time beautiful. Dog food companies talk about how delicious their food is, but if a dog enjoys sniffing the butt of another dog or putting his nose close to the excrement of another, what makes us think we have any idea how dog food tastes to a dog or what he thinks tastes or smells good? Heck they eat and smell almost anything and seem to enjoy it.

Probably the only solution for preserving the real breed of game pitbull dogs is to allow some legal and regulated practice of fight testing dogs that ensures some level of compassion and prevents human cruelty to the animals. The match rules of dog fighting by nature prevent unwilling participants, and dogs only fight as long as the want or are game to. Typically a dog game enough to fight to his own death, would be saved and bred, after all that is the most prized trait a dog can have. A dog who can win is valuable, but a dog willing to continue fighting to his own death is priceless. Also forcing those who do appreciate real game dogs, to be criminals pretty much ensures those who do it will not do it ethically, as only criminals will break the law and do it. Sort of like gun ownership. 

Just more junk to think about. Have fun.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Good post.

I agree that my dogs enjoy things I find crazy. I would never go out and roll in poop just for the fun of it!

And they do enjoy fighting, if you own a pit you spend 80% of your time trying to find ways of preventing them from getting to another dog. But, it is brutal and they do feel the pain when the fight is over, if they live through it.


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## Hirihat (May 5, 2009)

jeep lex said:


> is dog fighting wrong yes but is it as inhumane as we(those to young to be around then) have been brainwashed to beleive i dont think so, this is totaly opinion and belive me i dont condone dog fighting but to me a dog born extremely da is probably happiest in the box(aside from being with its owner) its like two ufc fighters getting in the cage because they simply enjoy fighting. i know you cant compare humans who act on free will and dogs who act on instinct but its the best analogy i can come up with. let the flame begin


To be completely and totally honest with you, I see your post as a GREAT talking point. I have thought long and hard, gathered opinions, spoken with many people, read a ton of stuff and I really don't see any easy answers.....I think dog fighting is wrong, I think it is immoral, I think it is savage....at the same time, I have to acknowledge that I have never been to a dog fight and the ex-fighters I have worked with in rescue were not from any of the "sanctioned fight clubs" where the owners actually gave a sh&% about the dogs and picked them up or prevented things from going too far....then there are the bait dogs in rescue with filed teeth or no teeth and scars upon scars....who ever cared about them????

I have seen APBT's who have never been fought and have been kept separate from other dogs from the second they began to exhibit any signs of DA who will post up at themselves in a mirror or shiny surface.....would these dogs have been "happy" if they could have gotten into a rule-bound pit??? Probably....but would it be good for them???? Eating a huge piece of cheesecake might make me happy but is it good for me???? LOL

I was raised around working breeds, have always owned working breeds, rescued working breeds....I LOVE WORKING BREEDS!!! I love the attitude of a dog that feels it has a purpose, the confidence those animals have in their very right to be at your side even if their "job" is to keep the couch warm! LOL I cannot see it as harm to any breed or any dog to not have them in a position to be harmed even if it is something my dog might enjoy.....Drinking anti-freeze might make them happy but it's not good for them, so we keep them away from it, right? I guess, to my mind, this is where I always end up. That we (humans) should protect them from what is not good for them.....


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I must spread rep around before giving it to Hirihat again. lol


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

i did it for ya smokey


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## Hirihat (May 5, 2009)

smokey_joe said:


> I must spread rep around before giving it to Hirihat again. lol





NEELA said:


> i did it for ya smokey


Thanks guys! Ya have me blushing!! :love2:

I have to say, I love that everyone here ACTUALLY tries to discuss things and provoke thought....it makes me all warm & fuzzy!!!! 
:woof:


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## Cocoa (Mar 24, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Yes I can say the good old day of when fighting was legal! The breed was better back then and if you have the notion that these dogs fought to the death and were always mistreated you have seen to many movies and buy into that crap the HSUS and PETA promote.
> 
> If you truly know the breeds history and how fights were conducted you may not think of it as "savagery". Fights had rules and rarely a dog was killed while the fight was going on. when a dog curred out the fight was stopped. I could go on about how a fight was conducted but that is something you should educate your self on if you truly want to understand this breed.
> 
> ...


Breeding for dog fighting might have had the benefit of discouraging HA and quelling it in the breed, but in now way is that the most effective or only way to largely remove HA from a breed --- so I don't really consider that a valid point for the argument toward canine gladiators.

Much of what you said about the rules was true, and I think to an extent that is why some of this breed's history is found fascinating and even romanticized by many owners who would never consider fighting their own dogs. Because there was a culture that accompanied the practice of fighting dogs, and the upper echelons of that culture were very organized, many rules, and many people / dogmen who ---- had you spent 15min talking to them in other circumstances you probably wouldn't have walked away thinking of them as a "scumbag".

Just the other night I was reading a makeshift biography about Clouse and his dogs..... letters of his correspondence with other dogmen, he seemed like a good man at heart. Even there though, you can pull numerous quotes of people back then talking about the need for a "good finisher" ..... praising the ability of a dog to punish the other dog into death....

That said ----- that was then, we are in the NOW. The romanticized, "less sadistic" variant of dog fighting you describe is NOT the norm..... rather it is the exception. Generations have passed, most "dog fights" are done by gang members, thugs, and take place in impoverished areas and ghettos. You might think to yourself "oh well that's not real dog fighting, that's not the sport as it should be played". It doesn't matter what you think, the reality is ----this is the type of dog fighting most prevalent out there, this is the type of dog fighting law enforcement encounters most often. These are not "gentleman" with organization, rules, traveling from across the globe and high wagers being made............. these are punks, often trying to to prove they or their gang is tougher than the other, and settling it through inhumanely letting two dogs rip each other apart......... for their own benefit..... for drugs..... money...... power / respect ....... whatever. There's no love of the breed in that, the dogs are a disposable means to and end are endure a HORRIBLE existence.

A high percentage of the animals involved in these fights are stolen..... whether it be pitbulls being stolen to be fought, or some little girl's golden retriever being snatched from a back yard, having its mouth duct tapped shut, and then being slowly ripped apart as a bait dog. There's no love or respect of animals in any of that.

It all goes on despite being illegal, but you had better believe it would be about 20x worse were dog fighting not illegal.

Pitbulls have inherited many admirable traits from their gladiator past, but it is an insult to the pitbull to claim that is all that they are good for (not saying you said this btw, just making a general statement).... killing each other. The breed excels in countless categories and activities.

The closest legal game related testing activity has been mentioned in this thread already..... testing dogs as catch dogs against formidable wildy quarry like razerback boar. I see a lot of people who try to paint a picture of this as "not dangerous enough". I'd encourage you to make a trip to Texas... to midwest America where feral hogs are a real pest. I've seen some great American bulldogs die @ the tusks of feral hogs.... that's why the kevlar vests are so common, a large hog is formidable to both man and best. Perhaps the best test would be a smaller hog, against a dog in an enclosed area 1 on 1, for a set period of time....... similar to how they test the Dogo Argentino pups....


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## K9Oahna (May 18, 2009)

I have to say though this is O/T a bit this forum is very unique int he dog world. This could be a very heated topic and instead of fighting and back biting which so often takes place on the internet this is a very intelligent, well thought out conversation. I am thouroughly enjoying reading all of this. Great topic Atheist.
I am so glad I found this forum, you people are a great example of what the right hands can do for a prejudiced breed and are great respresentors of the animals you love so much.
I hope that makes sense.


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## jeep lex (Jan 29, 2009)

K9Oahna said:


> I have to say though this is O/T a bit this forum is very unique int he dog world. This could be a very heated topic and instead of fighting and back biting which so often takes place on the internet this is a very intelligent, well thought out conversation. I am thouroughly enjoying reading all of this. Great topic Atheist.
> I am so glad I found this forum, you people are a great example of what the right hands can do for a prejudiced breed and are great respresentors of the animals you love so much.
> I hope that makes sense.


arguing and acting like ass holes only get the post so far, intelligent conversations makes forums like this one so enjoyable thats why i stick around and this the first and only forum i regular


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

Cocoa said:


> That said ----- that was then, we are in the NOW. The romanticized, "less sadistic" variant of dog fighting you describe is NOT the norm..... rather it is the exception. Generations have passed, most "dog fights" are done by gang members, thugs, and take place in impoverished areas and ghettos. You might think to yourself "oh well that's not real dog fighting, that's not the sport as it should be played". It doesn't matter what you think, the reality is ----this is the type of dog fighting most prevalent out there, this is the type of dog fighting law enforcement encounters most often. These are not "gentleman" with organization, rules, traveling from across the globe and high wagers being made............. these are punks, often trying to to prove they or their gang is tougher than the other, and settling it through inhumanely letting two dogs rip each other apart......... for their own benefit..... for drugs..... money...... power / respect ....... whatever. There's no love of the breed in that, the dogs are a disposable means to and end are endure a HORRIBLE existence.
> ....


I Feel your being a little stereo typical about whats really going on in the gaming world of Gamedogs, But really I cant blame you cause any and all info that you may gather to form your opinion (unless you seen and experienced it on more than one occasion) is hear say! and is Exactly what PETA wants you to believe via Animal planet and the media.
Now There are three kinds of people that are involved in the world of Gamedogs, Im gonna try to break it down for ya.

#1 A natural born coward that cannot and will not commit that kind of violence to save there own life or the lives of loved one's or others, But gets true pleasure of watching the blood and guts of mortal combat, they can admire and at the same time hate any creature man or animal that poseses courage which they severly lack but only wished they had!

#2 Then there is the one's in it for the money involved with these dogs Gamblers and peddlers They have no respect for the animals just $ These people dont respect anything or anybody unless it can lead them to that all mighty doller!

#3 A true lover and admirer of utmost courage one that posses it till no end, a lover of the heart that drives a true Bulldawg which is akin to the heart that beats in there own human body, a person that when they see a display of that kind of gumtion they cant help themselves from finding it trully awe inspiring , filling there hearts with the magic stuff, that lesser men could only wish they could obtain!

Now basically these three types of people can be found in every race, in every country and every social status, they come from everywhere, not just the hood! 
The gaming world of gamedogs is no exception, ya got your dirtbags and ya got your True dogmen, The true Dogmen protects what they love and what is sacred to them (courage) These people are just as game as there dogs, they keep these dogs because there an extention of ones self , So I feel people shouldnt be so fast to pass judgment on a subject most will never know the meaning of, and only gather lil tid bits from here or there but mostly Animal Planet!

Have you ever heard of anyone boasting about how there dog would die for them? Im shure we all have heard that, may have even said it a time or two. 
Ok now for something rare, rare indeed! Somethin you may never Understand and or belive unless you were looked at dead in the eye and felt the seriousness of the the words> I"LL DIE FOR MY DOGS! Dont Judge a man like that! Dont even try to figuer him out! Leave um alone!!!!!!!!! no matter what he does with his bulldawgs!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing thats worth anything in life is easy to come by or hold onto! I'll be a deadman before anybody takes ME AWAY FROM ME!!!!!!!!!


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## GrChBoogie (May 22, 2009)

Great post!having a long hard think about that one.


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

Cocoa said:


> A high percentage of the animals involved in these fights are stolen..... whether it be pitbulls being stolen to be fought, or some little girl's golden retriever being snatched from a back yard, having its mouth duct tapped shut, and then being slowly ripped apart as a bait dog. There's no love or respect of animals in any of that.
> ....


 Believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see! 
Bait dogs are a myth like gun powder or feeding baby kittens to make them killers, Sad thing is There might be some 13 year old dog fighter wanna be with a half breed pit mix reading what you wrote and thinking that a taped up golden retrever is how you train a dog to kill, next thing ya know there's one less pet house dog in the ghetto! 
Also Dog thieves where I come from walk funny! They get culled so to speak, ya know instead of taken out the gene pool, they get taken out the taken without askin business!


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## Cocoa (Mar 24, 2009)

pimpidypimp said:


> I Feel your being a little stereo typical about whats really going on in the gaming world of Gamedogs, But really I cant blame you cause any and all info that you may gather to form your opinion (unless you seen and experienced it on more than one occasion) is hear say! and is Exactly what PETA wants you to believe via Animal planet and the media.


That's fine, I'm not here to put anyone on this forum down --- or label anyone. I think you raised some good points and I'd like to take the time to respond to them. As far as sources of information go..... I try to have a diverse collection of sources for information...... I think basing opinions only one or two sources is less credible and short sighted.



pimpidypimp said:


> Now There are three kinds of people that are involved in the world of Gamedogs, Im gonna try to break it down for ya.


Now, as you mention.... and I think it's an important point because I tried to touch upon this in my previous post as well....... there are different types of people involved in dog fighting. Overall, I'd even agree with how you described them. Here's my main beef with it though......... you outlined three types of people....... from my own experience and from crime statistics...... the "sport" you described is most widely practiced by those from the first two groups you described. So basically, sadists and gamblers.

Are there people that fight dogs that genuinely love the breed and love their dogs? Yes, there are ... I will agree with you on that....... I still don't think it has a place in modern society....... I find it fascinating as a past....... and I will agree with you those people are out there.

My point is, at one time they were the majority, the norm........ and the reality is.... they're not anymore. Even a lot of those old timers, dogmen of yesterday have been quoted as saying the game's not the same, the people are not the same, different generation ...... no love for the breed.... no respect for the game, etc. That's coming from people who fight dogs, so you can imagine what people who don't fight dogs and find the "sport" deplorable would think.



pimpidypimp said:


> Believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see!
> Bait dogs are a myth like gun powder or feeding baby kittens to make them killers, Sad thing is There might be some 13 year old dog fighter wanna be with a half breed pit mix reading what you wrote and thinking that a taped up golden retrever is how you train a dog to kill, next thing ya know there's one less pet house dog in the ghetto!
> Also Dog thieves where I come from walk funny! They get culled so to speak, ya know instead of taken out the gene pool, they get taken out the taken without askin business!


Respectfully, I must contest this point. Bait dogs are NOT a myth, but I wish they were because I find it very sad. See, the "true" dogmen you spoke of when you were outlining the different types of people in dogfighting culture probably would never steal neighborhood pets, kittens, etc and use them as bait. I can't picture Lou Colby doing that. Again though, the reality of the situation is that those people are the minority in this "sport", it has become increasingly popular.... especially at the street level. Someone like you might call them "wannabe" dogfighters, but the reality is at the end of the day they are still fighting dogs, dogs are getting killed over money, drugs, and other petty sh!t ---- and there are way more of them than there are those "genuine" people you describe. Stratton, notable author of many books on dog fighting and the APBT has remarked that using stolen pets and kittens as bait is unnecessary and shameful --- and I believe he states it's not something that was normally done by dogmen of old...... but my point was you have a lot of sickos and punks running around doing just that. Dog theft is huge and pitbull theft is especially huge.

I'm basing this on several years of shelter work, a career which I'd rather not say that requires I deal with this subject from time to time in a professional capacity, and most of my experience is based in southern California / Los Angeles. Maybe in the Midwest and elsewhere things are different, I doubt it, but out here that seems to be the norm.

BTW - I think this is a good discussion, I've been impressed with how it has been handled, this seems to be one of the more mature / open minded pitbull forums out there --- I dig it


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

You keep brining up punk kids and how they fight dogs and use bait dogs. True but those are not the dogmen of the past. What was originally talked about was not fighting today but when it was legal.
Example
You have a MMA fighter in a sanctioned fight with a ref, rules, and judges. Then you have someone like Kimbo Slice, a street fighter knocking in heads in a back yards. How can you compare the two? One is done the right way and one is done the wrong way, it doesn't make MMA a bad sport, it just means there is always some idiot willing to try it on their own and F#ck it up for everyone. (On a side note I love the fact Kimbo got his ass kicked in real MMA fights!) 

So yes Dog fighting is mostly done today by punk kids who have no idea what a Game dog is or how the "game" is really played. I respect old dogmen of the past, they had true APBT's and many had sound structure. You also didn't have these health issues like today because only the best of the best were bred and the rest were culled. If they are culled they are not entering the gene pool. And for those that want to cry about culling go ahead but it is an important part of preserving a breed and why the dogs were of a better quality pre 1976. There are still nice bulldogs today (Marty's yard proves that! lol) but the "pitbull" breed as a whole got screwed up by showline breeders and BYB's breeding to everything. Now you have showline dogs who have health issues like ataxia (AST's), hearts, hips, ect. and they just breed to dogs who are not carriers or have better scores than their dog. By doing this we have created bloodlines that have inherent health issues. A little OT from the OP but it all come back to the same place. Yes our breed is going extinct just look at the varying types of APBT's at a UKC show VS a ADBA show. How can you tell me that is the same breed? Totally bred for different purposes.
Now before the show people jump on me for this I have showline dogs that will be bred to other showline dogs too. We are all a little guilty in our own way, I just feel that the breed as a whole was better off 30+ years ago. JMO


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## K9Oahna (May 18, 2009)

I feel like I really need to say a small piece here. I dont need PETA and there radical ads or ideas to tell me that "gaming" is wrong. I am of the opinion that pitting any animal against another for sport is wrong. An animal coming to harm at the jaws of another is, again in my opinion, nothing short of abuse. 

Simply because men of the past did this with rules and regulations does not make it right. There are many things we the human race have done in the past that were simply wrong. 

Idealizing our forefathers for acts against other living things is not the way we grow and evolve. 

We learn from past behaviors and we make our best concerted efforts to not repeat history. I dont see how gaming dogs is any different. This breed is being persecuted because of a past we created for them. These animals are here because of us, they are being euthanized in shelters because of us. They are the boogie man because of us and the only way this is gong to change is to let go of the past and focus on a non violent future.

Animal abuse (putting a dog in harms way for sport qualifies) needs to stop. These dogs in particular will never shake the rep they have acquired unless we change things and letting go of a violent past is parting of changing things.

I hate to belabor the point but the fore father of the human race have done despicable and violent things to humans and dogs in the past. I see nothing romantic or admirable about this.
This breed is facing more then the simple extinction of the APBT of old it is facing actual extinction. As more and more bills are passed that outlaw this breed in specific cities and counties you can bet your a** this will soon be entire states that are outlawing APBT's or anything that could be an APBT. How sad would that be? How many children would loose a life long compaion just because it looks like a "Pit Bull"? All be cause some are affraid of loosing the APBT of old. 

The APBT of today, right now needs you to let go of it's gaming back ground and focus on saving it's future.

Ok, climbing down off my soap box now...


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## crocro49 (Mar 22, 2009)

yeahh pitbull is facing extinction in the US and almost all over the planet. and there is no debate in my opinion. no box no bulldog.
The modern APBT is bout to be a show breed as its been said previously. It will soon be over for the vicious pitbull, leaving more space for the mellow dogs. Poodles and yorkshire will finally get to run offleash without their owners being worried about an agressive Bulldog tearing up their beloved barking companion.

Whats taken so many years to achieve is about to be screwed up in a few decades. Well you either choose to accept it or face it. You gotta fight today if you wanna have a fighting dog. 

So if we all agree concerning the extinction of the breed, the debate should be : is it worth being an outlaw so as to preserve a breed ?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

The apbt may very well be facing extinction but dog fighting is not and will not,there will always be somebody fighting dogs in either the back woods of the usa or in 3rd world countries.and if in fact these dogs did become extinct they could be reproduced Fairly easily using hard nosed working dogs and tenacious terrier breeds[i.e patteradels and performance bred american bulldogs for example].


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## BlAzEd (Feb 25, 2009)

pretty much all the hate on dogfighting is being animal cruelty. with apbt's when they fought, they were never forced to fight, they fight because they choose to fight. if they didnt want to fight they showed it, and those were culled, they were NOT fought. in human fighting sports like UFC the person chooses to fight, if he didnt want to fight he didnt have to, if the person is getting beaten too bad no chance at all against the opponent, the fight was stoped. it is the same with the APBT. so why say it is animal cruelty? as long as the true pit fighting rules were in place i see no cruelty within. keeping the lines pure and game should be wanted and allowed. just my opinion


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## K9Oahna (May 18, 2009)

BlAzEd said:


> pretty much all the hate on dogfighting is being animal cruelty. with apbt's when they fought, they were never forced to fight, they fight because they choose to fight. if they didnt want to fight they showed it, and those were culled, they were NOT fought. in human fighting sports like UFC the person chooses to fight, if he didnt want to fight he didnt have to, if the person is getting beaten too bad no chance at all against the opponent, the fight was stoped. it is the same with the APBT. so why say it is animal cruelty? as long as the true pit fighting rules were in place i see no cruelty within. keeping the lines pure and game should be wanted and allowed. just my opinion


I say it is animal cruelty because it is. WE bred that fight into them and like you said, some didnt want to fight and those were culled. These dogs were engineered by humans for sport to watch them tear each other up. 
Just because my lab may want to attack another dog does not mean I would allow it even though it might make him happy.
It is not the same as UFC fighting. Humans have a much higher consciousness then canines do. All the APBT knows is the instinct what WE bred into them. That is where the cruelty began and as you stated those who didnt want to fight were "culled" and very definition of culling is "Culling is the process of removing animals from a group based on specific criteria. This is done in order to either reinforce certain desirable characteristics or to remove certain undesirable characteristics from the group. For livestock and wildlife, the process of *culling usually implies the killing of animals with undesirable characteristics*." How is that NOT animal cruelty? The didnt want to fight, they didnt make it fight...they killed it. That definition is per wikipedia. Again, how is that not animal cruelty?


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## Cocoa (Mar 24, 2009)

Alright, a lot of interesting input from all sides....

Seems to be three main groups:

- People who think fighting dogs should be legal and is the only way to make the breed worthwhile.

- People who find the fighting past an important and interesting part of the breed's history, but are against its continued practice and are for keeping dog fighting illegal.

- People who find dog fighting repulsive, both past and present, and love the breed for reasons that have nothing to do with it.


I think it's obvious there are people from all camps on this site. I also think it's impressive that, that being the case, this thread has remained civil and thought provoking. The fact of the matter is though, dog fighting IS illegal and that is NOT going to change........... so how about discussing the future.


I feel like there are a lot of knowledgeable dogmen out there who truly love this breed, and could make valuable contributions to its future. Patterdale terriers are a small working terrier breed often admired by pitbull fanciers. Patterdales are not known necessarily for pit fighting, but rather their game working ability. You tend to hear "game" tossed around when it comes to patterdale lines quite a bit, but it's not usually in reference to dog fighting ..... it's in reference to their working ability..... to confront often larger than themselves wild quarry and do so without backing down despite threat of injury and death.

Why can't the focus of the APBT be on its working ability, working being in the context of demanding physical activities that reward "gameness"..... obviously APBTs are too big for patterdale style work, but there must be some formidable wild pest that they could either control or terminate?


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