# small game or big game



## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

I have a question for the members that i seem to not understand.Why is it that alot of small game breeders dont accept the larger pitbull to be game,even when u check thier peds they come off of alot of the same stuff that the smaller stock that they breed came off of,and from respected dog men?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Size has nothing to do with being game .. Typically though box dogs were bred to be between 30-60 lbs. There is a reason dog men bred a smaller athletic dog. Bigger does not always mean better especially in blood sports where wind, speed, and ability matters greatly. There were/are freaks that are born like Mayday who fall outside the standard for the classic pit dog. However what it all boils down to is dog men care about one thing and that is gameness. But the APBT is a working dog with a standard working dogs are bred physically to withstand extreme conditions.


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

because a game bred dog is bred with gameness being a priority while the larger dogs are being bred with size as the priority. just because you see crenshaw's "ch"jeep" 4 places back in the ped of a big dog doesnt mean he is game. lately ive seen a lot of these bully breeders trying to legitimize their practices somewhat by breeding dogs from game lines into their bullies. do not be fooled.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Good Post Rob32


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

What is there not to understand? Game is game whether in a 30 lb dog or a 90 lb dog... The problem is that people do not understand game itself... Dog men breed for one trait game not looks or size or color... A dog man does not care if the dog is 500lbs if it can win in the []... However the more agile and the more determined dog was typically smaller... So there came to be the smaller dogs kept getting bred because they were the ones that ne'er gave up... It's like always watching the underdog whether it be horses, greyhounds, NASCAR, or ufc the underdog is bound to break through... The pit dog was always the underdog and still however they have the heart to beat any odds...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Good Post Sarge!


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Thank you Sadie some days I make sense hehehe


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LMAO!! You always make perfect sense to me Sarge! I get you totally!


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Just because bigger dog has same dog in its ped 6 or 7 generations back does not mean it is game bred. Dogmen breed for gameness so in order to have it produced the dogs that are game have to be close in the pedigree. Just because a dog has some of the same stuff back there does not mean they are bred the same. That is why you choose a line of dogs that suites you. Their a hundreds of dogs out there with lets say Mayday but if you got from some guys who shows dogs, and has bred for that. Now they just have a pretty big dog. And the guy next to you has a Mayday dog from Southern kennels. The to dogs wold be totally different dogs.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Thank you Sadie at least someone does... Lol I get you too


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

all good posts....... damm.. :backsquietlyoutofroom:


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Lol fh we still need you!!!!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

right back atya.. good peeps...


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

*right back at ya*

first of all im not talkin about the bullies,and some ppl do breed for size,but if the dogs are naturally big but bred for the same purpose doesnt mean that it couldnt contribute to the cause.but if our dogs come off of the same stuff just cuz your dog is bred smaller means that its more game thats bull.also alot of ppl dont even know how to read a pedigree.even going back to wises maximillian,killins cid,j.wilder etc. they all produced good dogs that were large dogs.but when u talk to alot of small game breeders my point was they act like larger dogs are a seperate breed.:clap:and to keep it real i know alot of ppl with big game that proved this so


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Any breeder breeding for size is a BYB I don't care what they are breeding. They didn't ALL produce large dogs get your facts straight! There are dogs that sometimes fall outside the standard. There is no such thing as a small game dog breeder a game dog IS small !!! With the occasional FREAK thrown in there .... You don't know anything your statement proves that. BIG GAME? lmao!!! That's laughable. If you think real dog men strive to produce monster size box dogs you are out of your mind. You are really hung up on this SIZE issue if you want a large bred dog best thing to do is get an Amstaff or an American Bully. Because any legit breeder who is breeding game dogs to the standard are not producing LARGE anything not on purpose anyway!


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

*right*



Sadie said:


> Size has nothing to do with being game .. Typically though box dogs were bred to be between 30-60 lbs. There is a reason dog men bred a smaller athletic dog. Bigger does not always mean better especially in blood sports where wind, speed, and ability matters greatly. There were/are freaks that are born like Mayday who fall outside the standard for the classic pit dog. However what it all boils down to is dog men care about one thing and that is gameness. But the APBT is a working dog with a standard working dogs are bred physically to withstand extreme conditions.


but gameness is also passed through genetics,do u agree?so saying that gameness is not gonna be in evry pup when u drop a litter,but the trait will still be in thier dna right.also alot of ppl spit mayday.but there's killin cid,ch.gator,and there are a few others that i cant remember off the top.that we for get about alot.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sadie is right While we may disagree on how many large dogs there are out there. I can tell you any one breeding for size it not breeding game dogs. When some one is breeding game the first dog they choose to breed is the gamiest dog out of the litter. And more often then not it is not the biggest. If you change the order of what you breed for if it be size, color, or, I would even say bight. Then you have lost sight of what matters in the APBT. Show me pedigree on the dogs your talking about and i will tell why It is not seen as being game.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I used Mayday for an EXAMPLE I happen to own a pup bred off the stuff and I like the family of dogs he is used as an example only.I know the others but there were not SEVRAL large game dogs like your trying to make fact. There are FREAKS that pop up every now and again. Gameness is a genetic trait (virtue) that is bred into the bulldog through selective breeding. Gameness is also rare just because you breed 2 proven CH OR GR CH parents does not guarantee a whole litter of game pups your lucky to get 1. Gameness has nothing to do with size. However the classic pit dog was typically 30-60 lbs give or take a few pounds.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sadie said:


> I used Mayday for an EXAMPLE I happen to own a pup bred off the stuff and I like the family of dogs he is used as an example only.I know the others but there were not SEVRAL large game dogs like your trying to make fact. There are FREAKS that pop up every now and again. Gameness is a genetic trait (virtue) that is bred into the bulldog through selective breeding. Gameness is also rare just because you breed 2 proven CH OR GR CH parents does not guarantee a whole litter of game pups your lucky to get 1. Gameness has nothing to do with size. However the classic pit dog was typically 30-60 lbs give or take a few pounds.


Hey by the way Sadie I haven't seen any pic of you pup lately. I would like to see how he is turning out. LOL are you going to be sad if he gets too big?

Show me some peds red baron. Of these big fame bred dogs you know.


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

*lets get it*



Sadie said:


> Any breeder breeding for size is a BYB I don't care what they are breeding. They didn't ALL produce large dogs get your facts straight! There are dogs that sometimes fall outside the standard. There is no such thing as a small game dog breeder a game dog IS small !!! With the occasional FREAK thrown in there .... You don't know anything your statement proves that. BIG GAME? lmao!!! That's laughable. If you think real dog men strive to produce monster size box dogs you are out of your mind. You are really hung up on this SIZE issue if you want a large bred dog best thing to do is get an Amstaff or an American Bully. Because any legit breeder who is breeding game dogs to the standard are not producing LARGE anything not on purpose anyway!


big or small game is not actually an official term.but there are breeders that stick to smaller lines and vice versa.thats all im saying with that.and im not saying everything they threw were always large,but if u like the larger dog ur gonna go with the lines that do so.2nd of all i can back up anything that i am saying but come on now alot of the red devil strains throw large dogs.and its not about being hung on size but i have seen what the big boys can do so if u breed 2 "game dogs" and throw a 85lb freak is he still considered a game dog.why would i have to go to a staff,if there standard is about 65lbs.and the apbt size varies widely?just some food for thought


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

No LOL .. I knew when I got him how he was bred and I know the Mayday family of dogs do tend to throw a bit larger dog. My pups sire is chain weight is 58lbs his grandfather is 56 .. Mom is a bit smaller though she is the 40's .. Bogart is not very big now he is still in the low 20's @ 7 months old but whatever he turns up at I won't be sad. He won't be 75lbs I am sure of that LOL ... I will post some pics of him tomorrow


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sadie said:


> No LOL .. I knew when I got him how he was bred and I know the Mayday family of dogs do tend to throw a bit larger dog. My pups sire is chain weight is 58lbs his grandfather is 56 .. Mom is a bit smaller though she is the 40's .. Bogart is not very big now he is still in the low 20's @ 7 months old but whatever he turns up at I won't be sad. He won't be 75lbs I am sure of that LOL ... I will post some pics of him tomorrow


Can't wait to see them. you know I was jk about his size? It is hard be cause a lot of the ed line like Red devil and dangerzone, castillo have been bred for size and gone far from game I am sure their are few good big game dogs from their lines but I am positive their are hundreds of big ol cur out there that just look cool.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

red baron said:


> big or small game is not actually an official term.but there are breeders that stick to smaller lines and vice versa.thats all im saying with that.and im not saying everything they threw were always large,but if u like the larger dog ur gonna go with the lines that do so.2nd of all i can back up anything that i am saying but come on now alot of the red devil strains throw large dogs.and its not about being hung on size but i have seen what the big boys can do so if u breed 2 "game dogs" and throw a 85lb freak is he still considered a game dog.why would i have to go to a staff,if there standard is about 65lbs.and the apbt size varies widely?just some food for thought


Some family of dogs like the Mayday family do tend to produce larger dogs in the 50's low 60's end they are not all 30-40 lb dogs. But they are not all 75+ lbs consistently either those big Freaks we are talking about are not typical in any game line. My pup comes down from some big dogs Mayday , Barracuda, so I know that certain bloodlines produce slightly larger dogs but we are not talking about 70+ lb dogs lol that doesn't happen often in any game bloodline. If you look at my pups ped you will see the average dog is in the 50's and low 60's on the top side anyway. Mom comes down from that buck/redboy blood so the bottom half of his ped does tend to flow with the 40-50 lbs dogs. I am just saying the APBT is not a LARGE breed of dogs you have them show up but not as often as one would like to believe.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [328954] :: A'S BOGART


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy4747 said:


> Can't wait to see them. you know I was jk about his size? It is hard be cause a lot of the ed line like Red devil and dangerzone, castillo have been bred for size and gone far from game I am sure their are few good big game dogs from their lines but I am positive their are hundreds of big ol cur out there that just look cool.


Yeah I know LOL ... I know what your saying though ... It's a shame how some of those lines have been ruined by breeder's with the bigger is better mentality. It doesn't take long to destroy good dogs or bloodlines.


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

*ok*



Rudy4747 said:


> Sadie is right While we may disagree on how many large dogs there are out there. I can tell you any one breeding for size it not breeding game dogs. When some one is breeding game the first dog they choose to breed is the gamiest dog out of the litter. And more often then not it is not the biggest. If you change the order of what you breed for if it be size, color, or, I would even say bight. Then you have lost sight of what matters in the APBT. Show me pedigree on the dogs your talking about and i will tell why It is not seen as being game.


for one u cant say the gamiest one will more likely be the smallest one cuz gameness is passed through selective breeding and genetics.for 2 the peds im talking about are found on dangerzone dogs.they are not necessarily the biggest out of the "larger dogs".and they are not bred for size.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

red baron said:


> for one u cant say the gamiest one will more likely be the smallest one cuz gameness is passed through selective breeding and genetics.for 2 the peds im talking about are found on dangerzone dogs.they are not necessarily the biggest out of the "larger dogs".and they are not bred for size.


i would say the dangerzone dogs Are more catch dogs that have been bred for size and bite not game dogs. never said the smallest dog in the litter would be the most game. But seeing as how the large dogs are uncommon. And you might have a couple true game in a litter then the odd favor a smaller dog getting the better end of the game.


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

*the debate*



Sadie said:


> I used Mayday for an EXAMPLE I happen to own a pup bred off the stuff and I like the family of dogs he is used as an example only.I know the others but there were not SEVRAL large game dogs like your trying to make fact. There are FREAKS that pop up every now and again. Gameness is a genetic trait (virtue) that is bred into the bulldog through selective breeding. Gameness is also rare just because you breed 2 proven CH OR GR CH parents does not guarantee a whole litter of game pups your lucky to get 1. Gameness has nothing to do with size. However the classic pit dog was typically 30-60 lbs give or take a few pounds.


i was talkin to a homie of mine and even though he's been breeding game dogs for years he still makes comments like this all of the time.and my point is that the size doesnt matter.and that the bigger dog is always gonna win etc.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I don't know anything about Danger zone being game I have never heard of it being brought up on any game dog board or discussed much. I know of the bloodline but I know of them to be WP/ hog hunting dogs they are along the lines of the Camelot bloodline and they are pretty large red dogs.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread. Any dog from any litter in any line has the potential to be considered game. As has been said, it's nothing to do with the size of the dog.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

red baron said:


> i was talkin to a homie of mine and even though he's been breeding game dogs for years he still makes comments like this all of the time.and my point is that the size doesnt matter.and that the bigger dog is always gonna win etc.


Wow wow wow. The bigger dog is not always going to win. IMO a taller dog has good chance but you got some 60 pound dangerzone dog up to a 50 pound game dog I take the game dog because his body is built for stamina while he might take more punishment he will win. The big dog will get tired and cur out or lose his breath and the contest. It's a lot like the UFC BROK lesner fight where he just couldn't keep up with the the smaller more athletic Valasquez.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

[email protected] Staffy I don't know either I think the OP was trying to say large dogs can be game too. No one here is disputing that .. The only thing I have an issue with is someone saying box dogs are bred to be 70+ lb monsters consistently.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

red baron said:


> i was talkin to a homie of mine and even though he's been breeding game dogs for years he still makes comments like this all of the time.and my point is that the size doesnt matter.*and that the bigger dog is always gonna win etc.*


Don't confuse winning with gameness. They're not the same thing at all. And as Rudy says the bigger dog is not guaranteed to win.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

That's right the bigger they are the harder they fall... Believe it he may come out ahead in the beginning but in the end he is going to loose more wind, stamina, quicker than the little guy. A box dog is bred to be athletic why do you think they took mayday down 10-15 lbs before a match? People don't realize that 10-15 lbs off a dog is A LOT of weight! Dogs went into that box conditioned not fat!


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

*peds*



Rudy4747 said:


> i would say the dangerzone dogs Are more catch dogs that have been bred for size and bite not game dogs. never said the smallest dog in the litter would be the most game. But seeing as how the large dogs are uncommon. And you might have a couple true game in a litter then the odd favor a smaller dog getting the better end of the game.


i dont have these peds cuz i dont have those dogs but apbt online.has them all i was checking out a camelot dog and a few generations back were small game dogs


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

That's because they were the foundation dogs used for those bloodlines they stemmed from OFRN/Wilder/hemphil dogs those are Game Lines but your talking generations back. But the direction Camelot/ Dangerzone was taken is a different story they are not box dogs. All bully bloodlines used game/staffy blood as the foundation of their stock.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

wow still going??

:rofl: camelot wasn't small dogs. they used small dogs.. bred in whopper LOL His vision was to beef up the OFRN same package on a 90lbs frame.. he loved the OFRN he just wanted it bigger. :hammer:
the first mastiffs reffered to as bandogs were 80-90lb average.. dogmen reffer to 80lb+ dogs as mutts or bandogs for good reason, thats what they are.. if you argue your arguing with the men who created the dogs let alone the concept.. LOL

big dogs that win usually fall to a smaller dog if they fall.. smaller than the dogs []'d before...

28-45 ideal size , 30-55 normal range, 25-75 accepted size range.. 
GRANTED.. there was one or two 90lbs dogs recorded to be APBTs, (Im talkin proven dogs of old)but they bred game and bred small, because generally the smaller 35/40lbs dog was it.. Colby even stated in his book that men were inbreeding APBTs to be bigger dog and calling them Am Bulldogs, he should know he donated stock and stud.. LOL


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

*ok*



Sadie said:


> [email protected] Staffy I don't know either I think the OP was trying to say large dogs can be game too. No one here is disputing that .. The only thing I have an issue with is someone saying box dogs are bred to be 70+ lb monsters consistently.


im not saying that at all.im just saying u cant sleep on the larger ones


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah FH I don't know I really get the whole thing but I am bored so I don't mind entertaining it... Hahaha that post I put up about Mayday being matched against this one dog Victor said Tant brought in a dog @ 72 lbs he called it a HORSE lmao!!!! And I quote him 

Well, we arrived there Thursday night, and Mr. Tant brought Cody, at 72 Lbs, he was a horse. <--------- You see that? LOL

Dogmen didn't box fat dogs anything over 65 lbs is going to have some trouble Mayday beat Cody too at 60lbs


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> Don't confuse winning with gameness. They're not the same thing at all. And as Rudy says the bigger dog is not guaranteed to win.


im not saying the bigger dog is always gonna win but dont count him out,bigger is not better by far


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

yeah.. I was familiar with that mayday .. tant over and out.. LOL same origins, all good stuff, but you can't beat a dog like mayday with a BIGGER dog than that.. LOL 
SO you have read both sides?? LOL That was a mess..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes I did I just think it's funny Victor called Tant's dog a horse LMAO!!!!!!! Because Tant brought him in at 72 lbs... That was hilarious ...


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

People just dont understand "Gameness" and most have no idea what a [] match was and how long they lasted. It was not a 5-15 minute ordeal. These took hours sometimes.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

red baron said:


> im not saying that at all.im just saying u cant sleep on the larger ones


I don't care if the dog is 100lbs if it's proven game in the box it's a game 100lb dog. But the bulldog was bred to be within a certain window. You can't just ignore that .... Freaks are born it happens but they are called RARE for a reason.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Yes I did I just think it's funny Victor called Tant's dog a horse LMAO!!!!!!! Because Tant brought him in at 72 lbs... That was hilarious ...


I know right?? I can't believe DT would even do that other than the fact thats what he had to work with that could handle mayday.. RiiiiiiiigghhhhhT..

He knew better, you know he did.. just had a bad run but.. at least he owned key building blocks of mayday.. LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> People just dont understand "Gameness" and most have no idea what a [] match was and how long they lasted. It was not a 5-15 minute ordeal. These took hours sometimes.


:goodpost:I think the shortest one I saw was Ken Allen's Tornado VS Tito's Sandy that was about 20 minutes long. But they can go on for hours just depends on the dogs.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Actually red baron if you will look back at your posts you did say the bigger dog will always win... Not true in fact the dog the dog with a bigger "want" to win will win... Game is just that game they won't quit they will fight til their last breath they will get back up after bleeding to death they will do whatever their owner asks of them until they are no longer breathing... That's why this Breed stands apart from every other.

And although bigger dogs happen it wasn't that often in the past but now you're right people are breeding for size which takes them away from the game because they are being bred for size first when in the past they were bred for game first size didn't matter as long as they could win...


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Alsoyour comparison of old game dogs to today's horses is like apples to oranges... You can't compare them... It would be like taking a cane corso and boxing it with a new generation non game tested apbt... Likely the apbt would still win because of it's blood but neither would last long...

And it doesn't matter if both parents and grandparents and great grandparents were winners in the box until the pups are tested and proven they are not game... They have good blood but they are not game just because they have good blood.... Game is ingrained in their mind but you can't brig it out until you test and prove... This is all illegal in the us so getting a game dog is pretty close to impossible now unless you have connections...


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

ok heres what i think. i think it is POSSIBLE to breed for both size and gameness if one were so inclined. i do not however consider it likely to happen. the reason being, the apbt dog was bred to perform in a sport where there were definitive weight classes. small dogs were matched with small dogs and large vs other large dogs, ect. 

the intentions when breeding the apbt were to create the pound for pound, perfect fighting dog, not the biggest fighting dog. as it turned out, most of the better dogs werent 90 lb monsters, they were what most "pitbull" people these days would consider "small". these guys werent breeding for smaller dogs, they were breeding for winning dogs. hope this makes sense, ive had a few drinks already lol


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lol rob you said it just how it should have been said this is what we have been trying to say this entire thread you worded it perfectly well said


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

dogs over 55# and when you get into 70-80 plus #,they can actually be worked by A smaller game dog.# for # is only good to A certain weight before the lighter dog has the bigger dog at A disadvantage.
smaller dogs carry weight to the skeletal structure and musculature in a more usable symetrical manner.
big dogs have more muscle mass,they need more oxegyn,which dissipates rapidly because their is so much density that has to be oxegynated.
we had A 45# dog,it was named Rocket.he was from Harringers down from homer.
hard mouth and could take punishment.he was rolled into both of the jacobs assasin dogs.schooled for Mr. chavis and got passed around for a test dog.
A guy came from west way, with A big 90# dog.as game as A bullfrog strapped to A stick of dynamite.
he beat on tha 45# dog,picked him up and would shake him til he p'd and shake him for p'in.he would scruff him in that hippo mouth,drag him to the corner and beat him into the corners wedge.
that 'lil dog took 3 turns,and hit him like A fresh dog.about 27 min. in he took another turn.
that was it. the big dog had never been pulled off then reset to the match that many times.
the rocket dog crashed him,got A pick on an ear,stood over that big dog and piled him to the ground. big dog was winded,he tried,God Bless him.
he just couldn't answer the call when he got picked up.
the other kid,he'd never seen this happen to his dog.he asked us if rocket would scratch back.as it wasn't an actual match we obliged.Rocket lived up to his name.he shot across there,with that sideways tilted head assault,slammed that big dog sideways and came up on the other side of his head.
this was a feat in many proportions. good handling,chain weight knowledge,having an educated dog.
dogs know much more than we give them credit for.
you'll hear stories of warriors losing to one x W dogs,because they get lazy,they too adress their opponents as we do.and like us they come up short.
you got some dogs that went uphill,alot uphill.yet they trust their own instincts,and their handler.pride is an instilled feature. 
theirs this thing, the old guys would sit around,i've said this before,and watch litters.
dare to think your dog isn't watching you.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rob32 again."


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