# Percentage and how the dog is bred



## RedNoseAPBT (Mar 3, 2012)

Percentage, how do you tell a dog's percentage? How does someone add up a dog's percentage in his pedigree? Let's say the dog is 50% Colby and 50% Bordeaux, how is the dog fifty percent Colby and fifty percent Bordeaux even when the dog is more than just Colby and Bordeaux (has more than just Colby and Bordeaux in his pedigree)? What makes him fifty percent Colby and fifty percent Bordeaux?

Let's say a dog is Redboy/Jocko/Eli, what makes him Redboy/Jocko/Eli if his pedigree consists of many different dogs? How is he Redboy/Jocko/Eli if none of the dog's in the entire fourth or more generation pedigree list Redboy, Jocko or Eli? Let's say, just for an example that a dog's pedigree only went back as far as to Tudor's Dibo, why wouldn't he be a Tudor's dog if his pedigree consisted of Tudors? Here's a pedigree of a Redboy/Jocko/Eli breeding: ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [389226] :: REDBOY / JOCKO / ELI

The first four generations in the pedigree doesn't even list Redboy, Jocko or Eli. If the dog is off Predator and Syberia, why isn't he a Predator/Syberia bred dog but a Redboy/Jocko/Eli bred dog?

If a dog from the past was a Colby's bred dog and his offspring had offspring and so on leading up to a Redboy/Jeep dog of today, how is the dog a Redboy/Jeep dog if his pedigree originally consisted of only Colby?

What makes a well bred dog in the sense of bloodlines? I constantly am seeing people comment on a dog's pedigree saying "he's well bred". How do they know he's well bred and what makes that dog well bred?

I just do not understand the whole pedigree/bloodline thing very well. I just want to learn and am willing to do anything just to learn.


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

Most go by what is majorly In the first 8 generations although there is more then jus redboy jocko and eli in there they are listing what dominates this pedigree. Most I know would say yellow and eli but there is more then just yellow down from jocko like termite and also more redboy then whats from yellow also. Hence why they most likely simplified it. There is also a little of jeep in there but he is basically colby eli and carver blood which eli was bred to alot of carver so again simplified and just has stated what blood dominates the pedigree. This is just my point of veiw though.

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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

I would like to also add most dont actually do true percentages I personally would never consider anything 100% if ur talking about a specificic dog line like jeep or redboy they are male dogs never be 100% other then themselves now when talking a specific breeders line like boudreaux that is a total different story.

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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

there were [are] certain dogs that did create their own lines, eg. redboy, eli, bullyson, snooty, maverick, and many more.

you can line breed or inbreed to maintain a line.

but lines are different from strains,eg.OLD FAMILY, OLD FAMILY RED NOSED,[not the same thing] COLBY, CARVER[but no one really knew how his dogs were bred], LIGHTNER, and a few more.
when your looking for a quality dog, dont look at his parents, look and see what his grand parents or great grand parents have done, thats where your dogs form will come from.

but if you have a dog with papers, then you need to learn how to read a pedigree.
because your just gonna embarass yourself if you ever get around people thatdo know what they are talkin about. and it wont take long to figure that your a fraud.

its not hard to learn, kind of easy, and know about the dogs in your pedigree


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## RedNoseAPBT (Mar 3, 2012)

How do I suppose to figure out how to read a pedigree? What are the best sources to learn about individual strains and bloodlines of the APBT? What are the best sources to learn about individual APBTs from the past and present?


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## RedNoseAPBT (Mar 3, 2012)

Are there any APBT books out there that teach you how to read a pedigree and the basics of learning about a pedigree? 

If I click on Chinaman's pedigree, he is an Eli/Carver cross. His pedigree is 9x Carver in the fourth generation pedigree and 8x Bordeaux. What makes Chinaman specifically an Eli/Carver cross? 

I just don't get the whole pedigree thing.


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## ScruffDaddy (Jan 15, 2013)

This is something Im interested in also - I've been told that Bella is predominantly redboy/hank from the breeder but I'm not sure how to read peds either arrrgh


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## RedNoseAPBT (Mar 3, 2012)

Okay, I searched a random dog on APBT pedigree and tried to see if I could "read" his pedigree and came up with Carver/Tudor/Bullyson/Bolio. Here's the dog's pedigree: ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [150714] :: DIAMOND JIM'S JR.

Is this right or am I way off?


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## ScruffDaddy (Jan 15, 2013)

Ok I looked at it too.. but I would say he is jeep too as the Crenshaws jeeps is in his 4th gen ped - but see.. I could totally be missing the mark here.... meehhhh Help KNOWLEDGEABLE GP! - help with my girls ped would be appreciated to.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

when you got a daughter of chinaman bred back to him thats as far as you need to go,
chinaman was one of those dogs that you base your yard on.

now when you start getting to his gr. children & gr. grandchildren that where percentages come in.

i dont mean this in a bad way, but i hope your not planning on doing any breeding, leave that to the experts.

right now, where your knowledge is, there are more important things than percentages that you need to know.

google --RICHARD STRATTON---- 

and buy his books, they are of high quality information, for someone willing to learn.

and that sounds like you, there are more books out there, but his are the best for the knowledge.

and they got great pictures in them.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

that dog you google to read the ped,

the only thing you need to say about d. jim's jr is 

he's heavy carver, and thats all you need to say because the ones that knows whats up, 
know what dogs your talking about,
i did see a 
snooty' influence but he's carver anyway


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

This is where people get confused... Species, Sub Species, Strain, Sub Strain... Lines are sub strains to the strains of Colby and OFRN (ACTUALLY ARE TWO OF THE PUREST REPESENTIVES OF THE IRISH, SPANISH,and ENGLISH DOGS THAT MOST ALL THESE DOGS COME FROM: the PUREST, because essentially all SUB STRAINs refered to as lines are from those STRAINS) Well bred can mean the dog is phenominal in everyway or that his/her genetics are phenominal in everyway. 

Dont confuse yourselves.. Dogs are Canis Lupis, thats WOLF. Man kind manipulated the gene, the thoroughbred still a horse down from the arabian? Yes. Dogs are still wolf. 

Wolf - SPECIES - Canis Lupis
Dog- SUB SPECIES- Canis Lupis
Bulldog-Strain (Bloodline of Dog by old world speaking)- Canis Lupis
Sub-Strains(all the "lines" that are at least 10 generations)- Canis Lupis

3-4 generations is okay if you can't see past your hand in front of your face or don't care too.. HOWEVER ... DNA and MtDna Go back 1000s of years.. One individual had DNA from 20,000 + individuals.. HOW TIGHT and "PURE" those traits, or "bloodlines" are and thus Genomes, and Phenomes, lock and slide and purifying traits as they are double up on, seen and unseen. Each individual has 256 ancestors donating DNA from 256 ancestors each, for7-10 generations.  So you have to look at the full 7; and it doesnt hurt to look at the full 7 of the main contributors in your dogs pedigree along with the outcrosses so you know why genes and traits that pop up "out of now where" actually come from. 

DNA wise .. APBT is the father to all these dogs that come up as the same breed as APBT, the difference is APBT has older markers and less mutations: APBT, AST, BT, AMBllDg, Dogo, Bandog, Tosa, Boston Terrier, etc... do you see the variety of dogs that when DNA tested not PATERNITY TESTED come up as the same breed "BULLDOG" .. 

Pedigrees if true are your DNA roadmap... many come from OF/OFRN greats Many come from Colby .. Many come out of nowhere.... Bulldogs come in many sizes great and small and have since the time of Normandy and before. What seperates these bloodlines of dogs or breeds of dogs is: work.. Proven workers, Proven workers and Producers, and those that are just producers of working game dogs. 

Good stuff surfer ^^ always prescribe sources of knowledge.. and yes Boudreaux is built solely on BLind Billy who was from breeding Dibo to his neice who was sired by Arizona Pete bred back to Heinzls Bambi mother of Dibo,Pete litter.. later Eli,Eli2, EliJR, Bullyson.. Tombstone is Carver as well on top of some old Sparks and E.Crenshw stuff. E. Crenshaw was the main source for Carver. Tudors got his first dogs from Colby, then Feeley, then Colby, then the Boat himself, then Dibo and others from Heinzl. Tudors was a great action guy but wasnt a great breeder, had a great eye for spotting a winner. Bolio was all the goodies from Colby,Corvino, Heinzl, Clouse, all together in one.. Carver had a good amount of Old Family dogs in source. WHICH is why its important to revert to scientific DNA standing on canine genetics ... Old Family.. well pure Banjo dogs would be Old Family essentially as its gathered from those of carver and inbred and linebred together, just as Fitwaters Goldie and Trahan Rascal is used and is so strong a catalyst in the Snooty sub strain. People.. Keep is Simple. 

Wolf- Species
Dog-sub speices
Bulldog -Bloodline-Breed-(COLBY and OF/OFRN because they were the beginning and still are purest representives of the beginning especially when crossed back into one of their sub strains)- Strain
lines ( bred down from strain forming "bloodlines" << missused term) of the main strain)- Sub strains

Its best just to drop bloodline from your common tongue unless needed to use it to bring reference into what you speak. (so people know what your talking about) 

Species, Sub Species, Strain, Sub Strain... 
wolf, dog, bulldog, "lines named for breeders or dogs"


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

fire, 
wow, thats not for the beginners, they will never understand that, but for someone with a little basic knowledge a wanting to learn.

that is actually a plethura of information,
have you retained that, or did you copy that out of a book??

if thats in your brain, you desrve much respect from everyone up here and i see why you're a moderator,

tip of the hat to you, sir


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Thats my own personal spew.. LOL .. THanks man, and oh darn... I used my crayola mountain.. Hahha .. I find it neccessary to break it down for there are SO many people breeding APBTs or any of the direct 5 breeds also lumped in as "pit bulls" as to exactly what the hell is in front of them. .. 


and to point out the dunce in myself: I didn't answer the question. How to tell tell what percent your dogs pedigree percentage. By finding common ancestors within the first 3, then the first 5, then the 7, and look beyond to 10 or further to see the origins.. as I pointed out ^^^^^^^ foundation and where it got singled out and tighten on and passed down as a sub strain or a line of its own.. Some of the best early dogs were scatterbred. The problem there, is consistency of traits.. and when outcrossing you actually cause more damage than good if you use the wrong out causing a world of diversified chaos in the DNA coding.. Meaning: take one 10yrs to line out the undesired traits if taint the sub strain. Its best to take any sub strain back to the original source in its purest form COLBY, OFRN, or OF by way of Banjo or some dog like that.. .. whoops there I go again.. :rofl:


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

yea there you go again.giving me a head ache before i go to work,lol. where you been hiding dude?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

trekking mountains, and here at homestead getting land ready for a few cows, and running kids all over Jauls county.. Just decide to enjoy this nice air and chill. But I really need to get back out on the tractor. LOL


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Thats why we love Stan! Very awesome info indeed! And although I knew u were gone living life I also knew that u would come back to us  lol.

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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

you know we got some of that'banjo' stuff over here also,
that crowd wanted to borrow one of my females so they could cross it in to that stuff.

wasnt banjo a pure carver dog?
mine is thru the early lonzo stuff [zebo,panther, angus, apositle, and bear]

5 generations in a row of excellent specimens.


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

purty sure he was. i think i read where he was sold for 100.00 at 1yr. old. god a mighty,if you cood do that in the stock market you'd be fairly well off.lol


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

nah welder, bb red and banjo were littermates between partners, one got old and was gettin his dogs stolen, 
so the other one took the rest of the litter home.

both dogs turned out to be gr. ch.'s

i think it was the first time for brother and sister, it may have been in the same weekend.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeh, hes an inbred Carver/Boudreaux hound.. Loaded up on Butcher Boy X Orphan Annie.. which is Fitzwater Goldie inbred stuff on top of tight boudreaux stuff.. Twisted around and inbred and linebred with the outs being only other "newer" Carver dogs.. 

If you look at how the dog is constructed and by what percentage of what dogs .. you can see that his traits are some old traits indeed and its from singled out prospects down from so said origins or source strain. Carver being source from OF either by way of Heinzl or E. Crenshaw.. He used Boudreaux cause it was BLind Billy twisted tightly stacked on one another and outed only to similar bred dogs like the Heinzl based Carver  >... side note: Carver and Tudor both had original source stock both were great dogmen in the action sense and could spot the best dogs in a heartbeat, both rung dogs and said men put to much on paper.. both bred dogs because of not what they did in the box but what all the dogs behind them did  isnt that paper? Carver said he liked the way Bullyson looked on paper... both Carver and Tudors used Heinzl..


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

So how does one breed for the genotypical traits? Phenotype is obviously what's seen in the physical makeup, but how about the unseen...which is questionably the most desired. Have they even narrowed down what genes control gameness, ability, etc.? Unless this is known, isn't it just another form of breeding for looks? I'm trying to get a handle on this purifying technique (backward breeding?) and the creation of the "old" dogs from the new. It looks good on paper with the name stacking as the breedings revert backwards, but how close do you really come to duplicating the original? I mean could I continually breed back two lizards till I finally derive the T-Rex I am after LOL?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> So how does one breed for the genotypical traits? Phenotype is obviously what's seen in the physical makeup, but how about the unseen...which is questionably the most desired. Have they even narrowed down what genes control gameness, ability, etc.? Unless this is known, isn't it just another form of breeding for looks? I'm trying to get a handle on this purifying technique (backward breeding?) and the creation of the "old" dogs from the new. It looks good on paper with the name stacking as the breedings revert backwards, but how close do you really come to duplicating the original? I mean could I continually breed back two lizards till I finally derive the T-Rex I am after LOL?


IF they weren't all killed off as dragons.. Yes.. Dinosaur is a word for a creature that was called Dragon or translates as Dragon around the world; that translation came about in the mid 1800s. Dinosaur "terrible lizard" .. Dragon "terrible serpent" hmmm.. and yes are people sometimes not exact replicas of a grand 2-5 generations back? ... as far as genotype, well that takes time to know the dogs inside and out. For those fastlaners there is the scientific [controlled method] which is the only proven way. For the rest of us its guess work until we get it right, like any other science experiment.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> IF they weren't all killed off as dragons.. Yes.. Dinosaur is a word for a creature that was called Dragon or translates as Dragon around the world; that translation came about in the mid 1800s. Dinosaur "terrible lizard" .. Dragon "terrible serpent" hmmm.. and yes are people sometimes not exact replicas of a grand 2-5 generations back? ... as far as genotype, well that takes time to know the dogs inside and out. For those fastlaners there is the scientific [controlled method] which is the only proven way. For the rest of us its guess work until we get it right, like any other science experiment.


dont get me started on dragons and dinosaurs!!!


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

A lot of info in this thread... what would be really cool is if firehazard at some point taught an online bulldog genetic class now that would be something


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## RedNoseAPBT (Mar 3, 2012)

I understand that it's going to take more than a few days to learn how to read pedigrees and fully understand them. I followed what M.S.K. said which was that most go by what is majorly in the 8 generations.

I posted this pedigree in, I believe my last post - ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [150714] :: DIAMOND JIM'S JR.

I counted 22x Miss Spike, 13x Spike, 13x Bullyson and 12x Dibo all majorly in the 8 generation pedigree. How is the dog pure Carver if he has more than just Carver in his 8 generation pedigree? Wouldn't he be considered a Carver/Tudor/Bullyson bred dog since that's what majorly in his 8 generation pedigree? He's also 7x Bolio and has other dog's multiple times in his pedigree as well, so another one of my questions is how many dogs and the number of times they're in the pedigree count as "majorly" in the pedigree? I could count many other dogs that are in his pedigree more than once, but what

Example: If a dog is 23x Popeye, 21x Max, 15x Fido, 13x Bella, 10x Buddy, 5x Jack and 3x Red, what makes him only a Popeye/Max breeding if the other dogs listed are also majorly in his pedigree more than once? How many times does the dog have to be in the pedigree to be considered "majorly in the pedigree"?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Actually in most part Carver is built up of Fitzwater Goldie, Rascal, "Heinzl, Colby, Hubbard, Corvino" or E.Crenshaws stuff down from Colby

So really... the best Carver is made up of individuals who were themselves inbred ^^^^^^.. The Tudors dogs in this ped we're discussing were Heinzl dogs.

Those are Heinzl traits people are tightening up on and throwing around.. So if your considering the 8, you should see more Heinzl than anything as far as names between the 8 generation. Most any Carver dog is going to be Heinzl, Hubbard/Corvino, Colby and yes (Tudors) .. who recieved not just Dibo but a couple a few off of Heinzl. So its safe to say that Carver was made up of [] bred and proven "old family" dogs.

To answer your question in a relative manner: Diamond Jim Luthor and Snakebite are both made up of Carver bred Heinzl dogs in the 4-6 and well many top end dog men only look at 4<< thus the "Carver" .. Carver, Boudreaux, always went together well... because... Blind Billy is the basis for Boudreaux:Blind Billy was a result of (dibo) unlce to neice/sister from (pete)his brother being taken back to their dam.. Those dogs being Heinzl bred Gimp dogs by way of Hubbard per Corvino.. All those Carver dogs come from a handfull of dogs as do most of the APBT itself.

Well to those who only look at 3-5gen I disagree with that I say what I said up yonder ^^^^^ and I look at the full spectrum. With Carver your getting the oldest blood tride and proven and kept together with each other. The best of what there ever was. So yes in fact its best said that Diamond Jim's dogs there are Carver bred as in the peds they are primarily carver until behind the 7th gen. So on an ADBA 7th gen ped you would have a dog that is almost pure carver on ped.


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