# Dog park...



## green machine (Sep 8, 2008)

So I have to start off by saying that I personally do not like the dog park. I don't normally go but seeing as my pups are so young I thought it would be ok. Also, Angus and Blanca being so young I wanted to get them out and interacting with other dogs so I took them to a local dog park.

I am highly dissapointed in my trip. I had never seen more agressive dogs in a single park ever. I had to see at least a dozen fights.

With in minutes of getting there a girl came up and asked what Blanca is mixed with. She was baffled when I said she was pure APBT. She said pit bulls have fat heads, I know what i'm talking about because I show Pitbulls. Yours has to be a mix breed. Here is a picture of blanca.








Then she calls her dog over and said Here is my pit. She has a pretty staffordshire bull terrier. here is a picture of what hers looked just about identical but all black.









Then her dog tried fighting my 9 year old cairn terrier over the tennis ball and threw My cairn around like a chew toy. Imediatly after this happening and breaking up that fight, a man walks up and start to train me on how to train my dogs and break up fights. All the while he is drinking beer at the dog park which would be against the rules. So I had just about enough, I called my dogs over to another side of the park and was playing fetch with them in hopes that this guy leaves soon.

Blanca decided to mingle back over to the larger group of people to visit and this guy grabs her cheek and was pushing her on the ground to teach her to sit. (blanca knows how to sit, but knows sign language because shes DEAF) so i, still trying to keep my cool, walked over and told him to stop because she will not listen to him as she is deaf.

Much more happened but this was the jist of the visit to the park. Very unhappy with the quality of people, as well as so many people who brought there agressive dogs. 

Sorry I just had to vent


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Thats a staffy holmes!


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## green machine (Sep 8, 2008)

my bad thats what i meant was staffordshire bull terrier.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

dog parks are poor pitbull etiquite,sorry im sure you knew that,everyone makes mistakes.


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## green machine (Sep 8, 2008)

I did know that and really wouldnt normally go to one, but thought that being so young it would be ok.


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## green machine (Sep 8, 2008)

Now I do have to say that Angus and Blanca did very well. didnt have one problem with them.


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## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

bringing toys into a dog park should be avoided. Also remember your animalcan pic up bad behaviors from untrained dogs.


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## green machine (Sep 8, 2008)

Mr. Bleezy said:


> bringing toys into a dog park should be avoided. Also remember your animalcan pic up bad behaviors from untrained dogs.


I agree. I dont believe ill be back there. There were about 10 balls all around the park and they had to fight over one. :hammer:


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## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

green machine said:


> I agree. I dont believe ill be back there. There were about 10 balls all around the park and they had to fight over one. :hammer:


when socializing a pitbull it is important to have a specific pack of dog where the owners are all in. Often times at a dog park the other animals will see there dominate presence and give your dog a hard time. even if it is a pup. i was fortunate to have a pack at work that belonged to my boss where they were able to play supervised with a giant schnauzer, 2 Standard Poddles, a pug, a Huskie, and 2 todlers. Suprvised was the key word there. a dog may not turn dog aggressive for up to 4 years. You have to moniter them and also with someone who understands pack behavior. Toys can often spark fights..


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I took my dogs to the dog park!

...

Those that know me are picking their jaws off the floor right about now. When I say I took my dogs to the dog park, what I really mean is that we trained Priest outside the fence. It was a great opportunity to work on the attitudinal adjustment he's been needing. But turning a combat-bred dog loose in a pen with other dogs? Foolishness. Of course you don't need me to tell you that. You've seen for yourself that it's just not worth it.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> I took my dogs to the dog park!
> 
> ...
> 
> Those that know me are picking their jaws off the floor right about now. When I say I took my dogs to the dog park, what I really mean is that we trained Priest outside the fence. It was a great opportunity to work on the attitudinal adjustment he's been needing. But turning a combat-bred dog loose in a pen with other dogs? Foolishness. Of course you don't need me to tell you that. You've seen for yourself that it's just not worth it.


:goodpost:


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## PeanutsMommy (Sep 21, 2008)

when Peanut was a bit younger a few months ago my husband and i took him to 2 different parks...the first one no one paid attention to Peanut he was able to run freely off leash no dogs came up to him just able to play with his ball and run he had a good time and my husband and i had a good time playing with him in big yard and no people even came up to us. the second park never again we left and decided to use the rest of the nature center to take him for a walk. Peanut was playing with his ball again and this time he was sniffing this little dog and everything was fine all the dogs were playing good together THEN this lady brings this white dog with black spots in and he immediately begins trouble with ever dog he was clearly showing dominace because he was humping every dog and starting fights with them he started in on Peanut when he was laying down with his ball and Peanut actually growled the first time ever and hasnt since. the lady who owned this dog never displined her dog or left she seen other people kick her dog off their dog to stop it from attacking their dog (it was a young yellow lab) and she just stood there like it wasnt her dog!!! the people yelled at her to get her dog and go but she ignored them. Dogs and people like that is what ruin dog parks! here is a picture of the trouble dog with Peanut before he started attacking the dogs


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## green machine (Sep 8, 2008)

I agree its definately not worth it. Now what do you guys suggest to really get these guys interacting with other dogs? Also I have an acre of land but havent had it fenced in yet.(just moved here) and i want to find an open area for them to run and interact with well behaved dogs.

thanks


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

You guys must have total idiots in your towns! We go to the dog park ALL THE TIME, and never have ANY problems. Its a GREAT idea to take your young pups to the dog park. There is NOTHING wrong with good socialization. I wish more people would socialize their apbt pups at dog parks, instead of saying "you got pits! you cant go to a dog park!!!"


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Blue Jax, Phoenix, & Katphish at the dog park


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## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

Lol, is that your video? That dog falling off the narrow ramp at the end was just too funny for me.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> Lol, is that your video? That dog falling off the narrow ramp at the end was just too funny for me.


Yeah, thats a few of our dogs. Thats some behind the scene shots of a documentary my cousin is doing on pit bulls & weight pulling. The dog that slipped off the ramp is our dog Blue Jax. He's the dad to Phoenix and the great grandfather to Katphish. I still crack up every time I see that video!


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## PeanutsMommy (Sep 21, 2008)

green machine said:


> I agree its definately not worth it. Now what do you guys suggest to really get these guys interacting with other dogs? Also I have an acre of land but havent had it fenced in yet.(just moved here) and i want to find an open area for them to run and interact with well behaved dogs.
> 
> thanks


how lucky are you all that land!! after you have it fenced maybe you can find people that you know that have dogs and bring them over for play dates? kinda your own personal dog park that you can control who interacts with you and your dogs?

i think the idea of dog parks is great a place for dogs to run off leash especially here in southern california we have no yards but people that shouldnt have dogs in the first place go to them and ruin it for everyone else


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## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Yeah, thats a few of our dogs. Thats some behind the scene shots of a documentary my cousin is doing on pit bulls & weight pulling. The dog that slipped off the ramp is our dog Blue Jax. He's the dad to Phoenix and the great grandfather to Katphish. I still crack up every time I see that video!


Great lookin dogs, with some great personalities from what I could tell. Keep us updated on that documentary, sounds interesting.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> Great lookin dogs, with some great personalities from what I could tell. Keep us updated on that documentary, sounds interesting.


Thanks alot! The documentary is at a stand still until after the new year. He's working on getting some new editing equipment to make a much better final product. With it being in HD, it takes alot more time to edit. He came to our NKC nationals last Saturday to video the pull and take some interviews. I could probably talk him into giving me some more behind the scenes stuff to post up.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

green machine said:


> I agree its definately not worth it. Now what do you guys suggest to really get these guys interacting with other dogs? Also I have an acre of land but havent had it fenced in yet.(just moved here) and i want to find an open area for them to run and interact with well behaved dogs.
> 
> thanks


We just finished fencing off an acre at our place and it wasnt to bad. We did a 6' privacy fence with all treated lumber. Let me know if you need any tips or suggestions!


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## green machine (Sep 8, 2008)

yeah defiantely could use some tips. and how to save money. lol fencing is EXPENSIVE!!!


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

green machine said:


> yeah defiantely could use some tips. and how to save money. lol fencing is EXPENSIVE!!!


Yes its expensive but worth it. First off I bought an auger from Harbor Freight For $225.00. This was worth its weight in gold! Instead of hand digging 54 post holes, I did them all in a fraction of the time! You could rent one for cheaper, but I will use one alot to install signs for customers.

Bought my 4x4's, 2x4's, & 6x6's from a local lumber yard. Ordering large quantitys they gave me a good discount.

The EXPENSIVE part is the picketts. I needed over 1,100 of them and they're around $2.00 ea. I found them at Lowes for $1.69 each. I went on Ebay and got a 20% off coupon saving me around $400! You also need alot of quickcrete, galvanized nails and screws which I would get at Lowes as well.

I spent around $3500 total which is not terrible to do over 500 ft. of treated wood fence. I called around and the lowesst quote was just under $8k and highest was over $10k for someone to come out and build it. Make sure you use all galvanized screws and nails. Also make sure all your wood is treated. I put quickcrete in every hole but thats not totally necessary.


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## green machine (Sep 8, 2008)

wow. sounds like you definately did that right. i found that it would cost me about 2k or so to build mine, going to have to wait untill tax time.


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

When my girl Ruthie was little, I took her to a dog park when we lived in Missouri/St. Charles area and I thought _she_ did ok but since she was little, she got banged around. Now she is dog aggressive. But I guess that is my fault since I was trying so hard to socialized her properly and didn't know what rough and tumble would do to her. At one point my oldest dog had to go after this one particular dog who was beating up on my Ruthie. I was proud my older dog stepped in but sorry it happened. We never went back. Now we have our own dog park in our fenced in back yard (about an acre) and I just take precautions with my Ruthie and love her anyway.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

green machine said:


> I agree its definately not worth it. Now what do you guys suggest to really get these guys interacting with other dogs? Also I have an acre of land but havent had it fenced in yet.(just moved here) and i want to find an open area for them to run and interact with well behaved dogs.
> 
> thanks


Petsmart, PetCo, places like that are great. You can get controlled socialization on a leash. Another good thing is puppy training classes. Once you get to know some people, you can get together and let dogs play in each others' yards. Socialization is not just letting your dog play with others. It's also molding appropriate responses, teaching dogs to deal with scenarios that they will encounter daily. Unless you live in a village where all dogs run loose, the dog park will only prepare them for more dog park.



> You guys must have total idiots in your towns! We go to the dog park ALL THE TIME, and never have ANY problems. Its a GREAT idea to take your young pups to the dog park. There is NOTHING wrong with good socialization. I wish more people would socialize their apbt pups at dog parks, instead of saying "you got pits! you cant go to a dog park!!!"


I certainly refute the idea that dog parks are "good" socialization. There are total idiots in _every_ town. If you think it makes sense to take a dog bred for a long time to beat the tar out of other dogs and put it in a group of strange mutts, be my guest, but forgive me if I'm one of those who wont drink the Kool-Aid. You can get socialization everywhere without throwing them in with loose, strange dogs. It is unreasonable to expect an APBT to put up with the free-for-all of the dog park. Why get an APBT if you're looking for a dog park dog? Just to prove that with enough luck and saturation, you can train out the dog aggression? There are tons of other breeds more suitable for the dog park environment.

ETA: Young pups at the dog park? I'll get my parvo elsewhere, thanks.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

My dog park experience. If you look at one point where we're talking to an off-camera dog owner, her mastiff was very uncomfortable. She had her tail tucked the whole time, and even peed on herself later. My dogs did perfectly fine. (Even Loki's little display was her rather rough way of instigating play.) And they got that way _without_ the dog park. But as good as they were, it's important to remember that _they are still Pit Bulls_. A proud breed whose history is full of the blood of other dogs. There is a fine line between getting smart socialization and just being foolhardy. You don't do the breed a service by telling people that it's just fine to take these guys to the dog park. There is a huge difference between a controlled burn and a kid with matches. By that I mean there is a marked difference between a super-experienced owner screaming "I know my dog blah blah," and telling everybody you come across to go ahead and light that fire and "It'll be okay as long as you watch it."


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm not going to end up on the news because my dogs want to enjoy themselves by fighting with another dog. I'll never tell someone what they should and should not do with their dogs. But dog parks are an accident waiting to happen for this breed IMHO therefore I am strongly against it for obvious reasons that have been spoken and shown in this thread by different members . How can you live by the saying never trust an apbt not to fight and then turn right around and let your dog/dogs loose in a dog park full of strange dogs and dog owner's you don't know? Sorry I will never take that risk I'll be an idiot all day long before I allow one of my dogs to become another media statistic.


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## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

it's all fun and games with a well socialized pit until some dog threatens that dogs life. most will not roll over and take a beating by some strange dog. if your dog is unneutered and the other dogs are neutered they will feel threatined and give your dog a hard time. it isn't necessarily the unnuetered dog that starts the fight it is the testosterone the dog possess which threatens the nuetered dogs which causes them to start the trouble. They can smell it.Young pups will often be cornered and put in their place by being bit on the back of the neck if there is an established order. More so than most new members of the pack which teaches them to be dominate in any circle dogs or humans. The dogs can sense the dominate presence of a pit often times in ways we can't see as humans. I was once told pits posses more testosterone than any animal alive next to a bull shark. Not sure if that is true or not but it sounds about right.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Interesting comment re: the neutering. The dog park we were at had signs at the gates "Male dogs must be neutered."


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Green Machine I' sorry that you had such a bad time at te dog park. Where I live dogs are nonexsistant. We can't even find a fenced in area to let the dogs play. Luckily Ilive on 7acreas of land so my dogs run every day. 

The best socialization you could do would be to join a puppy class or obedience class in your area.


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## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> Interesting comment re: the neutering. The dog park we were at had signs at the gates "Male dogs must be neutered."


yeah it's funny because people always think it is the unneutered dog that is causing the trouble. in many cases if the dog isn't socialized properly it is. however you can socialize an unneutered dog but still the neutered dogs will see that dog as a threat and start in on him with the humping and other doggie methods of forced submission. the probability of it happening like this is very high whether people can see it for what it is or not. i took my first pit who was an unneutered male to the dog park in atlanta everyday from the time he was 6 weeks old. in addition i would socialize him at my grooming jobs and daycares. he was highly tolerant and had a very good disposition. but it never failed, there would always be some ignorant pet parent who would allow their dog to try and alpha him. they would often attack him and he would just walk away never really submitting just walking away. man i was lucky. i thought he was incapable of fighting and never could figure out why he was always the target for all the other dogs. if i knew then what i knew now. fortunately the first time he was fully attacked it was in my back yard. believe you me it is in their blood and they will do what they were bred to do. if you have ever seen your pitbull do his working function you will quickly realize this is not a situation to be taken lightly. regardless of what people here want to say in a dog park it is like having a loaded gun. after seeing for myself what these dogs do i immediately took my dog to the vet and said cut them off. the vet fortunately was very honest with me and since he was already past the age of 6 to 9 months neutering won't affect their tendency to bite or fight. if you want to calm your dog or ward of biting or fighting it must be done before six months. even then it won't guarantee the dog to be less dominate or more submissive it is still a pit and in a REAL fight they won't usually submit. Point being, when some dumb ass who knows nothing about dog behavior has a doberman and it doesn't like to be played with in a pit like fashion,(ruff and happy and hyper) and your dog comes running up on it too fast, the doberman may well just feel threatened enough to to defend it's life. when it gets serious thats when the pit does what they do. just because they are tolerant or not dog aggressive doesn't mean it will submit in a fight. they MAY the first time at a young age scream while a dog kicks his or her butt, because they are still abies and don't understand, but after that they will never let it happen again. i'm fairly sure if it goes far enough with any adult pit they will finish the deal. keep in mind breaking up a fight between dogs is absolutely stupid when it isn't a pitbull. the reason for this is because you can break up two well bred pits because they are bred to not bite people in that situation, but i dare you to try and break up a pit and a german shepard. you will get bit. and if your dog ends up killing the other dog then you will get sued. it never fails in the atlanta dog park always some dumb ass who brings in the little dominate dog and has no idea what he is doing in the eyes of a dog. oncesa couple got very mad at me for slinging their elder pitbull off of my pits back. it kept on humping and aggressively biting him. i knew it was about to get ugly. i had to sling the dog by his collar about 20 feet back so we could make a break for the gate before he jumped back on my dog. i can't believe we made it out because my dog showed his teeth and that old pit's days would have been done. the guy came up and threatened me for slinging his dog, which basically was me saving his dogs life. i couldn't believe these idiot were just letting their dog do this and thought it would be fine. that was the last time I ever went. point being this suburban soccer mom types who live in fantasy land are everywhere. it's not your dog that is the problem you just can't guarantee that others know what you do. it only takes once. not only are the other dogs put in danger by a pitbull, but your dog could be put to sleep or you could get sued. pits aren't allowed in most daycares for a reason. if they are allowed in a daycare you might want to take your dog and put him some place else with someone who has enough experience to know not to allow it. i know plenty of people who know nothing about dogs but open up these facilities and have to learn the hard way. i'm not saying you can't do it and everything will work out fine. but regardless of how many times you get away with it, you ARE in a high risk situation whether you realize it or not. it's like the guy who drinks and drives his whole life and never gets busted. regardlesss of the fact he never figured out it was stupid, it was..


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## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" (Aug 7, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> I'm not going to end up on the news because my dogs want to enjoy themselves by fighting with another dog. I'll never tell someone what they should and should not do with their dogs. But dog parks are an accident waiting to happen for this breed IMHO therefore I am strongly against it for obvious reasons that have been spoken and shown in this thread by different members . How can you live by the saying never trust an apbt not to fight and then turn right around and let your dog/dogs loose in a dog park full of strange dogs and dog owner's you don't know? Sorry I will never take that risk I'll be an idiot all day long before I allow one of my dogs to become another media statistic.


I agree completely because I learned and continue to learn the hard way. I have been bringing Jaymo to the dog park around the corner since he was four months old and the older he has gotten, the more aggressive he becomes with other dogs. All of the people love him, but get nervous when the snarling starts. He also has been chasing the other dogs away from the people as if he owns everyone.. Whenever he starts this behavior I leave with him, but I remember reading countless articles and posting in this forum about pit bulls being wrong for dog parks. Jaymo has never injured another dog or person there, but it doesn't mean that he wouldn't. The truth is, no dog can be completely trusted not to attack another animal, it's just that this breed gets WAY too much negative attention. Today I had Jameson in the woods for about four hours before I brought him to the dog park to try to tire him out but there were a couple tough little labs in there that were in the mood for a scrap and we broke up a couple small bouts. The people are good sometimes and bad sometimes, but I can always count on unsolicited advice on how to handle my dog. For the most part, I think the dog park sucks because of the annoying losers there, but in the end I will continue to visit because I have no yard of my own and I need a variety of things to do to keep him active and tired!!!! Our average day at the dog park lasts about 20 minutes or less


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

bahamutt99 said:


> I certainly refute the idea that dog parks are "good" socialization. There are total idiots in _every_ town. If you think it makes sense to take a dog bred for a long time to beat the tar out of other dogs and put it in a group of strange mutts, be my guest, but forgive me if I'm one of those who wont drink the Kool-Aid. You can get socialization everywhere without throwing them in with loose, strange dogs. It is unreasonable to expect an APBT to put up with the free-for-all of the dog park. Why get an APBT if you're looking for a dog park dog? Just to prove that with enough luck and saturation, you can train out the dog aggression? There are tons of other breeds more suitable for the dog park environment.
> 
> ETA: Young pups at the dog park? I'll get my parvo elsewhere, thanks.


I'm not sure about you, but all of our dogs get shots. At 12-15 weeks they're still young dogs. We have NEVER had parvo. Our dogs are all always up to date on all shots.

I'm a APBT lover and there's no other breed that I love this much. We rescue other breeds but dont have any others as our dogs. We have taken our dogs to the dog parks for years and nothing will change. Our dogs will get along with other dogs because of the way we've raised them and socialized them. Its foolish to think that just because you have a pit bull that it hates all other dogs and will kill them. I've said it once and will say it again, it all comes down to socialization. If you have a dog that can not be social and get along with others, you have a unbalanced, improperly socialized dog. (Notice I didnt say "pit bull" but dog)

Our dogs have been through various training classes, go to Petsmart & Petco way to much, weight pull, show, travel with us, and go to the dog parks all the time! They're around other dogs all the time so it's nothing new to them.

More than once we have put 6-8 of our Pit Bulls in vehicle loose together and traveled over an hour at one point. Zero problems. Imagine that.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" said:


> He also has been chasing the other dogs away from the people as if he owns everyone.


There's the problem. You're not the dominant one, he is.



> Whenever he starts this behavior I leave with him,


You do what!?!? You dont correct him and teach him the proper way to act? Sounds like he needs guidance.



> Jaymo has never injured another dog or person there, but it doesn't mean that he wouldn't.


There's another problem. Youre already expecting the worst.



> The truth is, no dog can be completely trusted not to attack another animal,


EXACTLY! No dog can be completly trusted.



> it's just that this breed gets WAY too much negative attention.


Very true. Thats why the good ones need to be at dog parks and other social events to prove the ignorant wrong.



> but in the end I will continue to visit because I have no yard of my own and I need a variety of things to do to keep him active and tired!!!! Our average day at the dog park lasts about 20 minutes or less


Do you think 20 mins. is really enough time to tire him? We sometimes stay for 2-3 hours.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

SadieBlues said:


> I'm not going to end up on the news because my dogs want to enjoy themselves by fighting with another dog. I'll never tell someone what they should and should not do with their dogs. But dog parks are an accident waiting to happen for this breed IMHO therefore I am strongly against it for obvious reasons that have been spoken and shown in this thread by different members . How can you live by the saying never trust an apbt not to fight and then turn right around and let your dog/dogs loose in a dog park full of strange dogs and dog owner's you don't know? Sorry I will never take that risk I'll be an idiot all day long before I allow one of my dogs to become another media statistic.


I live by the saying, " Never trust ANY dog not to fight."


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Mr. Bleezy said:


> it's all fun and games with a well socialized pit until some dog threatens that dogs life. most will not roll over and take a beating by some strange dog.


As they shouldnt. No person or animal should just roll over and take a beating. Thats why you have to step in before it escalates that far.



> if your dog is unneutered and the other dogs are neutered they will feel threatined and give your dog a hard time. it isn't necessarily the unnuetered dog that starts the fight it is the testosterone the dog possess which threatens the nuetered dogs which causes them to start the trouble.


I don't know about all that.



> They can smell it.


That part is true.



> Young pups will often be cornered and put in their place by being bit on the back of the neck if there is an established order. More so than most new members of the pack which teaches them to be dominate in any circle dogs or humans.


There is only one dominant of each gender in a pack. Thats what causes problems, a follower wanting to become dominant disturbing the pack.



> The dogs can sense the dominate presence of a pit often times in ways we can't see as humans.


Pits are dogs just like poodles. They're not some mythical creatures.



> I was once told pits posses more testosterone than any animal alive next to a bull shark. Not sure if that is true or not but it sounds about right.


Just like I said before, PIT BULL ARE DOGS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER DOG.


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## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> As they shouldnt. No person or animal should just roll over and take a beating. Thats why you have to step in before it escalates that far.


a very experienced individual MAY be able to pull this off. obviously not everyone in this thread understands this nor does everyone at the dog park. still high risk. the fact that you don't see it only proves the point. it only takes once. your pit kills a dog it goes on the news. pits are viewed as bad dogs, don't feed the sharks. there isn't always time to stop it from happening.



Rock Creek Kennels said:


> I don't know about all that.


i do..



Rock Creek Kennels said:


> That part is true.


:goodpost:
what about the part were i said they see dominate behavior we don't. that part is true too and it has nothing to do with their since of smell.



Rock Creek Kennels said:


> There is only one dominant of each gender in a pack. Thats what causes problems, a follower wanting to become dominant disturbing the pack.


true, so when they sense such a dominate dog and he is new and young, particularly under the age of 6 months they are prone to giving it a hard time. They tend to give the young dogs a grace period. Pits pose a future threat to the order of the pack because the dogs just know. they teach them their place thus the pup learns how to dominate others at an early age. why you may ask would they do that? because it is a pitbull and they know one day it could kick their ass and very possibly will. something many people aren't knowledgeable enough to ward of in the future, and something alot of us don't want to bother with. and if it doesn't take on a dog aggressive character that isn't always avoidable by socialization(which you won't know until after age 4)then what other problems might you have causing the disturbance at a dog park. what about when you add a older larger male to the pack. did you know that if you have 2 of these dogs most commonly with 2 unneutered males in this particular instance, eventually the elder will take control? they could be best friends and something as simple as a person trying to pet one of them could spark the challenge. the older larger dog will always take control if they aren't neutered. the younger larger dog may too only time tellls that one for sure. something most won't see coming until they learn the hard way and definitely something most other pet owners inside the park don't see. some are smart enough to avoid the situation. some can monitor the it and avoid it, but i wouldn't trust many with that responsibility, especially the majority of people stupid enough to bring their dog to the dog park.



Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Pits are dogs just like poodles. They're not some mythical creatures.


umm yeah but poodles don't have the same kind of bite pressure and they stop fighting if they get what they want(that's to be in charge). poodle are far less tust worthy with humans and dogs. it's the poodles and their owners you have to watch. when your dog kills it it doesn't matter who started it. you have the pit. it's your fault in the eyes of the general public. Plus 9 times out of 10 Poodle owners are rich(because it cost alot of money to take care of them) and consequently live fantasy land, and are FREAKS about their dogs. you could have that situation. and of course not to mention, none of us want to see it on the news..



Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Just like I said before, PIT BULL ARE DOGS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER DOG.


umm we aren't talking about human rights and equality, these are dogs. not every dog was bred to fight they are not all equal they are man made animals possessing different traits for different purposes. not every dog is capable of killing every other breed and most will stop when the fight is broken up. try breaking up a pit fight. it's not easy. but worse than that is breaking up a pit with another dog who isn't bred to fight. then YOU get bit or some other person who could make your life hell for it or get your dog put to sleep. just because they are meant to be good with humans and CAN be good with other dogs, doesn't mean it is a flaw to be dog aggressive so don't think that gene can't show up at any given time. again you will never know if it is truly going to be good with dogs until age 4. Gamble if you like. I prefer to socialize my dogs with people who are experienced and if something did happen, would be understanding.

oh and how bout you take your dog to the Atlanta dog park and tell me if you have ever seen one of these idiot come walking in with a pitbull that isn't socialized. do you think it is smart to advise others to walk into that situation with pet parentswho haven't gone to petsmart training classes?? lol get a real trainer..

you said petsmart. hahahaha:flush:


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Mr. Bleezy said:


> a very experienced individual MAY be able to pull this off. obviously not everyone in this thread understands this nor does everyone at the dog park. still high risk. the fact that you don't see it only proves the point. it only takes once. your pit kills a dog it goes on the news. pits are viewed as bad dogs, don't feed the sharks. there isn't always time to stop it from happening.


I've NEVER heard of a dog KILLING another dog at a dog park. I'm not saying its impossible but...pretty close to impossible!

It does not take experience to pull this off, just common sense. If you see a dog bow up, hair stand up, locked vision, tail up, or even hear a growl or too rough of play you step in and stop it. Simple as that.



> i do..


So you think that all the unneutered dogs will gang up and pick on a neutered dog?



> :goodpost:
> what about the part were i said they see dominate behavior we don't. that part is true too and it has nothing to do with their since of smell.


Oh really? What behavior would that be?



> true, so when they sense such a dominate dog and he is new and young, particularly under the age of 6 months they are prone to giving it a hard time. They tend to give the young dogs a grace period.


So youre saying that dogs know age?



> Pits pose a future threat to the order of the pack because the dogs just know.


Now youre saying that dogs can distinguish individual breeds?!?!



> they teach them their place thus the pup learns how to dominate others at an early age.


Hence the need for proper socialization at a early age.



> why you may ask would they do that? because it is a pitbull and they know one day it could kick their ass and very possibly will.


BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! You really think that dogs can distinguish breeds?



> something many people aren't knowledgeable enough to ward of in the future, and something alot of us don't want to bother with. and if it doesn't take on a dog aggressive character that isn't always avoidable by socialization(which you won't know until after age 4)then what other problems might you have causing the disturbance at a dog park. what about when you add a older larger male to the pack. did you know that if you have 2 of these dogs most commonly with 2 unneutered males in this particular instance, eventually the elder will take control? they could be best friends and something as simple as a person trying to pet one of them could spark the challenge. the older larger dog will always take control if they aren't neutered. the younger larger dog may too only time tellls that one for sure. something most won't see coming until they learn the hard way and definitely something most other pet owners inside the park don't see. some are smart enough to avoid the situation. some can monitor the it and avoid it, but i wouldn't trust many with that responsibility, especially the majority of people stupid enough to bring their dog to the dog park.


THATS EXACTLY WHY YOUR DOGS SHOULD NOT BE THE DOMINANT ONE! YOU SHOULD BE! NONE of our dogs are neutered.



> umm yeah but poodles don't have the same kind of bite pressure and they stop fighting if they get what they want(that's to be in charge). poodle are far less tust worthy with humans and dogs. it's the poodles and their owners you have to watch.


Did you know that pits dont have the highest bite pressure either? I was just using poodles as an example.



> when your dog kills it it doesn't matter who started it. you have the pit. it's your fault in the eyes of the general public. Plus 9 times out of 10 Poodle owners are rich(because it cost alot of money to take care of them) and consequently live fantasy land, and are FREAKS about their dogs. you could have that situation. and of course not to mention, none of us want to see it on the news..


Thats why more friendly pits need to be in the eyes of the general public! To change the stereotype! To show people that these dogs are good for more than killing other dogs!!! If we dont change this, there will always be people out the wanting to take our breed away!



> umm we aren't talking about human rights and equality, these are dogs. not every dog was bred to fight they are not all equal they are man made animals possessing different traits for different purposes. not every dog is capable of killing every other breed and most will stop when the fight is broken up. try breaking up a pit fight. it's not easy. but worse than that is breaking up a pit with another dog who isn't bred to fight.


Trust me, i've broke up plenty of fights. Our dogs are trained well enough that USUALLY a stern "NO" works well. But I have had to pull out the break stick or a cold bucket of water on them a couple of times. One day Apache had a 4ft rat snake in his mouth shaking it while it was striking him in the face. I yelled "drop it!" and he did and ran up to the fence. I was very proud of him.



> then YOU get bit or some other person who could make your life hell for it or get your dog put to sleep. just because they are meant to be good with humans and CAN be good with other dogs, doesn't mean it is a flaw to be dog aggressive so don't think that gene can't show up at any given time. again you will never know if it is truly going to be good with dogs until age 4. Gamble if you like. I prefer to socialize my dogs with people who are experienced and if something did happen, would be understanding.


Thats cool, cause we have 2 that are about to turn 7 that are great with other dogs! A few more 4-5 yr. olds that are as well. That goes back to the old sterotype of "Thats a pit! Never trust it! It could turn on you at anytime!!!"



> oh and how bout you take your dog to the Atlanta dog park and tell me if you have ever seen one of these idiot come walking in with a pitbull that isn't socialized.


I'm sure you will. I prefer the Chattanooga dog park. Its only 15 mins. away compared to Atlanta that over an hour away. 



> do you think it is smart to advise others to walk into that situation with pet parentswho haven't gone to petsmart training classes?? lol get a real trainer..
> 
> you said petsmart. hahahaha:flush:


Wow! You finally said something that makes sense! I've NEVER trained a dog at Petsmart. We started with Positive Connection. My girlfriend apprenticed under Pat Miller. She has written a couple books you may have heard of. Then after getting certified, my girlfriend became a trainer there. After doing that for a few years we moved onto PlayDog Excellent. (Advanced Obedience, Rally, Fly Ball, and agility classes). Have even done some training with the SDA (Search Dogs of America) which is part of the UKC.

Dont get me wrong, Petsmart & Petco are both great place to take your dogs. Just not for training.


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## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se (Sep 15, 2008)

im a little funny when it comes to this topic....here is my take on dog parks... 

1. they are not a good idea when they are fenced in (the traditional dog park). The reason is, becuase you get a whole mess of dogs mixing in a yard trying to establish the pecking order. The yards they have these parks at are usually not big, and alot of poeple tend to crowd and before you know it, u have 15 dogs in one small yard, with their guns ready to shoot.

2. Alot of poeple at these parks, are their to HONESTLY socialize with the other people there. IMO most of the poeple there dont know much about their breed or any signs that a dog my be displaying. There are very few people who actualy take the time to gather information on their breed and "supervise" their dogs at these parks. Sure they are present, but how often have you seen a dog fight break out and the owner come running from across the yard, frantically, to break it up??? too much for me IMO

3. i would say 2 out of every three dogs at these parks are not trained properly. They do not come on command, they do not sit or heel on command either. and those are the most important rules BEFORE taking your dog to socilze with strangers. you always have that owner who tries to make it look like they are involved by bringing their dog to the park but they know squat about dominance, how to break up a fight, what to look for and how to correct the dog and stear them away from negative situations. people SHOULD NOT be brigning their DOGS OR PUPPIES if they ahvent taught them the basics or researched at least a little about the breed. 



out here in CA (east bay) i have found two parks that i am particulay in favor for. the first one is just like the traditional dog park, fence, grass and a pretty small area to stuff dogs. BUT THE GREAT THING ABOUT THIS PARK IS!!! it has 5 different sections and you have to ask each member in the section before you can enter. the limit of dogs in each section is 5, and there is a "dog trianer/security" there to help supervise WITH A BREAK STICK! i actally just took kenya to th park with her bully buddy (i posted pics in another thread) and i told the security, that i only want that section for 30/40min but just these two dogs. (most poeple saw pitbulls and didnt want to get into our pin anyway) but it was a nice training and socializiation for both kenya (to play with an older male dog) and tyson (to play with ANY DOG lol)

the other one i like the most. it is a stretch of 12miles in either direction of grass, hills, trees and trails. it usually ahs about 30 cars parked at tghe parking lot, but once ur in there, U HARDLY RUN INTO ANY DOGS. kenya likes it because when she does run into a dog its usually one or two. I LIKE IT becuase when we do meet the other dogs, i am with kenya and their owner is wit their dog. RIGHT THERE WATCHIN and next to their pet. so rather her thinking that meeting new dogs is an everyday thing, its more like a treat or a game, because you come across maybe 10 the entire time your there, and it usually last for about 5 min each greet. there, she has met all kinds of different dogs from little itty bitty 2lbs-ers to giant 100lbs-ers. i am more comfortable bringing her to this park because she gets to spend time with me, outdoors and can run around free of worry about dominance. i think dog parks should all be like this one because since there is so much space, and you constantly moving, there is not time to pick a fight for who the baddest dog is and there is no time for awkwardness if u ahve a shy dog. 

i belive i am lcky that i stumbled acorss these two parks in myarea. i dont think i will let her interact with new dogs in a small contained traditional dog park because there is jsut so many things wrong with them. but a a play day with some buddies SURE! if i can keep that area for me and MY BUDDIES! otherwise ill stick to open 12mile long/wide parks


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## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> I've NEVER heard of a dog KILLING another dog at a dog park. I'm not saying its impossible but...pretty close to impossible!
> 
> It does not take experience to pull this off, just common sense. If you see a dog bow up, hair stand up, locked vision, tail up, or even hear a growl or too rough of play you step in and stop it. Simple as that.
> 
> ...


look i can argue this all day i got a paragraph for each statement, but i don't have ten years to pass on to you of experience with mixed dog packs(all breeds not just pits, trained and untrained) you can take my word for it or not. i don't feel like typing anymore today. not everyone understands and does what they are supposed to in a dog park. it only takes once. dogs can pick up bad habits. i'm not saying you aren't capable of handling your dogs in a dog park. i'm not saying that your dogs will ever kill a dog or you will be the statistic. i'm saying in general it is stupid to take a pit to a dog park because it is high risk. dogs don't know the specific breed, but they do pick up on dominate characteristics of alpha type dogs(pits generally being those) and we as humans can't always explain what it is they are picking up. i was taught that by an akc judge when i became obsessed with trying to figure out why certian dogs were being picked out of the pack and after we had ruled out everything posssible she said, "they just see things we don't sometimes." i'm taking her word for it because i know when people know what they are talking about. not all pits become dog aggressive, most whom are well socialized and trained will be fine. but fights do occur, pits have killed and injured many dogs in dog parks and day cares, and you can think i'm full of shit if you want. i hope it continues to work out for you. i am just no longer willing to take the risk and i thought i would pass on some wise words.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> I live by the saying, " Never trust ANY dog not to fight."


Yup but let it be a pitbull and you bet your a** it will be all over the news just another pitbull attack in the media not to mention the apbt enjoys fighting it's just the good old nature of the breed. Rock Creek you can take your dogs to the dog park all day long you have that right those are your dogs. But I don't do it with mine and wouldn't recommend it to anyone else. We will just agree to disagree on this subject and I hope your dogs don't end up another statistic as a result of dog park socialization the last thing this breed needs is more accidents. Best of Luck to you


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> I've said it once and will say it again, it all comes down to socialization. If you have a dog that can not be social and get along with others, you have a unbalanced, improperly socialized dog. (Notice I didnt say "pit bull" but dog)


So you seriously disregard all the breeding behind these dogs in the face of socialization? You know, by that logic, you could probably train a good border collie not to herd. I agree that it is possible. Through saturation and correction, you could squelch _any_ behavior that comes naturally to a dog. But I think it highly likely you would end up with a neurotic, unhappy dog. I find it highly presumptuous of you to assume that a dog who doesn't like other dogs was improperly socialized or is unbalanced. Maybe it's just an APBT in the same form as it's always been.



> Our dogs have been through various training classes, go to Petsmart & Petco way to much, weight pull, show, travel with us, and go to the dog parks all the time! They're around other dogs all the time so it's nothing new to them.


There is a massive difference between training classes, dog shows, and the dog park. Massive. You can't even compare those things. My dogs do dog shows, weight pulls, agility trials, obedience trials, PetCo, Petsmart, Southern Agriculture, training classes, and all kinds of other organized, controlled stuff, too. The dog park doesn't qualify as organized or controlled. Key difference.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

bahamutt99 said:


> So you seriously disregard all the breeding behind these dogs in the face of socialization? You know, by that logic, you could probably train a good border collie not to herd. I agree that it is possible. Through saturation and correction, you could squelch _any_ behavior that comes naturally to a dog. But I think it highly likely you would end up with a neurotic, unhappy dog. I find it highly presumptuous of you to assume that a dog who doesn't like other dogs was improperly socialized or is unbalanced. Maybe it's just an APBT in the same form as it's always been.


The good thing about us is that all but 2 of our dogs were bred by us. We have up to 4 generations of our breedings behind some of our dogs. We know what we bred and we know what we have. Not every border collie wants to herd. Just like every Lab does not want to swim. Just like every Beagle does not want to hunt. Just like every pit bull does not want to fight.

Who ever said that all pit bulls don't like other dogs? Our dogs are all very happy and far from neurotic. They LOVE running and being happy with other dogs.

I dont fight dogs and never will. That would be the only reason I could see to have a dog aggressive dog.



> There is a massive difference between training classes, dog shows, and the dog park. Massive. You can't even compare those things. My dogs do dog shows, weight pulls, agility trials, obedience trials, PetCo, Petsmart, Southern Agriculture, training classes, and all kinds of other organized, controlled stuff, too. The dog park doesn't qualify as organized or controlled. Key difference.


You can absolutley compare those things. They're all social environments. Every place you mentioned is an situation where dogs are interacting with each other. The dog park is just as controlled. Agility, obedience, training classes, and the dog park are all places where your dogs will probably be off leash at sometime.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

SadieBlues said:


> Yup but let it be a pitbull and you bet your a** it will be all over the news just another pitbull attack in the media not to mention the apbt enjoys fighting it's just the good old nature of the breed. Rock Creek you can take your dogs to the dog park all day long you have that right those are your dogs. But I don't do it with mine and wouldn't recommend it to anyone else. We will just agree to disagree on this subject and I hope your dogs don't end up another statistic as a result of dog park socialization the last thing this breed needs is more accidents. Best of Luck to you


Thats alot of the problem. I run into people EVERYDAY that have NEVER even seen a pit bull in their life. They will pet and love all over one of our dogs and then ask what kind it is. Then when we tell them they jump back and say "will it attack me?" People need to get their dogs out more into the spotlight. If not, this negative sterotype will always be there.

I use to think that pit bulls enjoyed to fight as well. Then I woke up and realized the truth. With a little time, work, and socialization you can have a much more balanced dog. We've proved it time and time again. Not only with our dogs, but others as well.

We will continue to go to the dog park. We have dogs that are capable of going so we will take them. They enjoy it and have never given us reason not too take them.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Sounds like you guys have put a lot of time and effort into creating a strain of non aggressive "pit bulls". But I have to ask, do you think that you are improving the breed or do you think maybe you might be creating a spin-off through selective breeding? Just curious.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I have *HEARD* and I am not saying this is *TRUE* but I have heard many fancier's of this breed say that if an apbt is not animal aggressive than they are a cur and are not bred to the standard of the *TRUE* apbt because animal aggression is one of the reason's these dogs were bred to begin with it's a natural trait bred into these dogs for many many years. Again I am not calling anyone's dogs curs for them not being d/a but to my understanding this trait should be a natural trait in these dogs. Unless like buz said you may have some selective breeding going on to create a strain of non aggressive dogs.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

There's only 1 way a dog could be a cur, and I would say that those 'fanciers' are using the term very loosely.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

SadieBlues said:


> I have *HEARD* and I am not saying this is *TRUE* but I have heard many fancier's of this breed say that if an apbt is not animal aggressive than they are a cur and are not bred to the standard of the *TRUE* apbt because animal aggression is one of the reason's these dogs were bred to begin with it's a natural trait bred into these dogs for many many years. Again I am not calling anyone's dogs curs for them not being d/a but to my understanding this trait should be a natural trait in these dogs. Unless like buz said you may have some selective breeding going on to create a strain of non aggressive dogs.


Cur is a loose term. We strive to produce good weight pull, show, obedience, and family dogs. We have no reason to have or produce dog aggressive dogs. If we were wanting to produce dogs to sell to fighters, we would breed dog aggressive dogs. But we don't.

These dogs were bred to never quit and always please the owner. That doesnt always mean that they have to be dog aggressive.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

buzhunter said:


> Sounds like you guys have put a lot of time and effort into creating a strain of non aggressive "pit bulls". But I have to ask, do you think that you are improving the breed or do you think maybe you might be creating a spin-off through selective breeding? Just curious.


Defiently feel that we're improving the breed. We are producing dogs that can prove to people that pit bulls can do anything. Also proving that not all pit bulls are animal killing machines. When raised and socialized properly they can fit into almost any situation. I dont see how you can call something a spin-off when its EXACTLY the same as before. We're just breeding out an unwanted characteristic.

There is no reason to have a dog aggressive dog unless you want to fight it. Sure it looks cool to have a dog that will go after other dogs, and it will probably impress your buddies. But there is no actual reason for it.

A dog can still win in the show ring, on the weight pull track, or in a obedience trial without being dog aggressive.


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## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Defiently feel that we're improving the breed. We are producing dogs that can prove to people that pit bulls can do anything. Also proving that not all pit bulls are animal killing machines. When raised and socialized properly they can fit into almost any situation. I dont see how you can call something a spin-off when its EXACTLY the same as before. We're just breeding out an unwanted characteristic.
> 
> There is no reason to have a dog aggressive dog unless you want to fight it. Sure it looks cool to have a dog that will go after other dogs, and it will probably impress your buddies. But there is no actual reason for it.
> 
> A dog can still win in the show ring, on the weight pull track, or in a obedience trial without being dog aggressive.


wow i think what your doing is awesome.... I actually found myself thinking once, man I wish I could own a pitbull and not have to worry about it hurting other dogs or having people think that it could hurt them or their pets. Why is everyone here saying that DA is a good thing just because its already in their breed?? If you dont want to eliminate DA because you feel it is a breed standard then it seems like you have no room to ever complain when people use the "pitbulls are killers (of pets)" steriotype...


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> I dont fight dogs and never will. That would be the only reason I could see to have a dog aggressive dog.


Would you euth a dog-aggressive dog that came out of your program? Say, a throwback to before you started a program based on your own criteria? Or what if it was just a normal dog like plenty of non-APBTs who don't like other dogs?



> Just like every pit bull does not want to fight


And I will give you that. Not all Pit Bulls want to fight. However, _advising as a general rule that it is a good thing to take an APBT to the dog park_ is risky advice, don't you think? Even if someone has a fantastic 6-month-old that they "know" inside and out, do you not agree that these dogs can still "turn on" when they hit maturity? Would you say it is a reasonable statement that the dog park is a very bad place for a scrap to take place?



> The dog park is just as controlled.


A group of dogs where "pack members" are regularly being rotated in and out of the general population with no introductory period? You consider that controlled? Let's make the comparison between that and the other "social environments."

Agility trial: Supervised by ring stewards and a judge. One dog off-lead. In a ring. By itself. With the other dogs outside the ring. They do not take a dozen dogs and have them run together. When your dog is done in the ring, you put their leash back on.

Petsmart: Dogs are leashed. You do not walk in the door and get mobbed by several dogs who are waiting to "greet" yours.

Conformation show: Supervised by ring stewards and a judge. Dogs are leashed and sufficiently spaced. They don't generally make contact with one another.

Training class: Under the supervision of an experienced trainer. Most assuredly on-leash, until you get to the off-leash advanced stuff. When you get to the off-leash advanced stuff, the idea is not to have a free-for-all, but for dogs to do controlled exercises like recalls and heeling.

Dog park: No lifeguard on duty. No prerequisite training, for dogs or owners. No leashing requirement. In most cases, no opportunity to meet and greet in a controlled way before being introduced to the populace at large. Just open the gate and let the dog run in.

BTW, I'm not interested in changing your mind. But if your advice to newbies is to take their dogs to a dog park, I will certainly come up with information as to why that shouldn't happen.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> A dog can still win in the show ring, on the weight pull track, or in a obedience trial without being dog aggressive.


And they can still win _with_ being aggressive if the trainer is worth anything. There is no reason to change the breed for sanctioned dog sports. The only reason to specifically breed out the dog aggression would be if you specifically wanted a dog to run and play with other dogs. Which brings us back to the original point of why get an APBT if dog aggression is an issue? I vigorously protest attempts at making this breed easier so just anybody can own it. It cheapens the accomplishments of those who work with APBTs and succeed with them, without breeding out the challenging traits.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

college_dude said:


> Why is everyone here saying that DA is a good thing just because its already in their breed??


Who said DA was a good thing? It *is* in the breed, and has been there for a long time. And it is senseless to eliminate nice dogs from a program because they are DA. Look at the AmStaff. Concentrated effort to remove the DA and make a more socially-acceptable pet dog. Some AmStaffs are still quite hot, many are not. So why not get one of those instead? If one wants an APBT but doesn't want the dog aggression, is it fair to individually rewrite the standard just because that person can't handle the dog as he was created? What do you think a greyhound breeder would say to me if I went up and said "You know, I really want a greyhound. Desperately. But I want to be able to let it off-leash and expect it not to run away." They would probably laugh at me, and say that the greyhound is a poor choice for me. Just like I would say to 99% of people out there that the APBT is a poor choice for them.


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## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

but the APBT was listed as DA because man made him that way. Right? All I am saying is that the reputation of the pitbull would be soooooo much better if the DA was toned down, and you wouldnt even know what the acronymn BSL stood for. And if Rock Creek is helping to make that a reality, then bravo to people like that. By assuming that its OK for a pitbull to want to kill other dogs your just perpetuating the notion that this breed is all killers. And if thats the case, then BSL is spot on. Why should it be ok to own an animal that wants to do nothing but kill other animals? I was under the assumption that pitbull owners socialized their dogs to minimize the dog agression, and here you are saying that its as acceptable as a greyhounds willingness to run.

[Quote/] It cheapens the accomplishments of those who work with APBTs and succeed with them, without breeding out the challenging traits. [Quote/]

doesnt this mean that you are challenged to minimize the DA?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> Who said DA was a good thing? It *is* in the breed, and has been there for a long time. And it is senseless to eliminate nice dogs from a program because they are DA. Look at the AmStaff. Concentrated effort to remove the DA and make a more socially-acceptable pet dog. Some AmStaffs are still quite hot, many are not. So why not get one of those instead? If one wants an APBT but doesn't want the dog aggression, is it fair to individually rewrite the standard just because that person can't handle the dog as he was created? What do you think a greyhound breeder would say to me if I went up and said "You know, I really want a greyhound. Desperately. But I want to be able to let it off-leash and expect it not to run away." They would probably laugh at me, and say that the greyhound is a poor choice for me. Just like I would say to 99% of people out there that the APBT is a poor choice for them.


:goodpost:


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

college_dude said:


> but the APBT was listed as DA because man made him that way. Right?


All breeds are what they are because of human intervention. Without man making the dogs what they are, GSDs wouldn't have pricked ears, Dachshunds wouldn't be short, Chihuahuas wouldn't be tiny, Rottweilers wouldn't guard.



> All I am saying is that the reputation of the pitbull would be soooooo much better if the DA was toned down, and you wouldnt even know what the acronymn BSL stood for.


Do you really believe that? You believe it is the dog-aggression that causes BSL?

Do you think toning down the DA would have had any impact on, say, the Nicholas Faibish case in California where the 12-year-old was killed by a male dog housed with a female in heat? In that case, there was no dog-aggression, only people aggression. After that case, CA weakened its anti-BSL law.

Would toning down the DA have prevented Cody Yelton in Oklahoma from losing his arm to 4 Pit Bulls who mauled him through a fence? Again, in that case, the dogs were 100% fine with each other, and mauled a child. Rep. Wesselhoft made a strong push for his BSL here in OK after that happened, and we thankfully defeated it.

What about the case in Washington where the woman had her ears torn off by two Pit Bulls, which is now leading to talks of BSL all over WA? Again, two dogs working as a team to maul a woman. No DA, only HA.

You just don't hear about BSL getting sparked because one dog beat the tar out of another. Maybe local yokel BSL in towns where they've got nothing better to do. But these big cases are almost always because of an attack on a *human*.

As Leri Hanson said in the American Pit Bull DVD, (paraphrased because I can't remember word-for-word) "Every time I've seen a Pit Bull attack, it was side-by-side with another Pit Bull. If I go out and there are multiple Pit Bulls in a yard together, I go hmmmm..."

Seriously, give me a hot-as-hell DA dog over one who is iffy with people any day of the week and twice on Sundays.



> Why should it be ok to own an animal that wants to do nothing but kill other animals?


Your words, not mine. And the answer is it's okay because I keep my dogs under control. To turn the phrase, why should it be okay to own a dog like a Rottie, GSD, Doberman, or other breeds who have historically been bred to stop people?



> doesnt this mean that you are challenged to minimize the DA?


No. It means you control it. It means the dog ignores the other dog because they are there to work. It does not mean that the dog wants to play with the other dogs when you break them out of their sit-stay.


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## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

No I agree with you about the HA vs DA. I'm not saying anything for HA. personally I think signs of unwarranted HA should be taken VERY seriously and thought should be given to putting down the animal in order to avoid a case similar to the ones you listed above. However, I was making the point that the DA is also cause for their bad reputation. Why do you think people are scared when they see a pit in the dog park? Because they have that steriotype that all pits are DA. And my point was that if you lower down the DA, their reputation will improve. I really don't see any need for it, do you? As far as HA goes, I personally see no need, if you want home protection buy a gun, its your right...if you want property protection get an alarm. JMO


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

college_dude said:


> but the APBT was listed as DA because man made him that way. Right? All I am saying is that the reputation of the pitbull would be soooooo much better if the DA was toned down, and you wouldnt even know what the acronymn BSL stood for. And if Rock Creek is helping to make that a reality, then bravo to people like that. By assuming that its OK for a pitbull to want to kill other dogs your just perpetuating the notion that this breed is all killers. And if thats the case, then BSL is spot on. Why should it be ok to own an animal that wants to do nothing but kill other animals? I was under the assumption that pitbull owners socialized their dogs to minimize the dog agression, and here you are saying that its as acceptable as a greyhounds willingness to run.
> 
> [Quote/] It cheapens the accomplishments of those who work with APBTs and succeed with them, without breeding out the challenging traits. [Quote/]
> 
> doesnt this mean that you are challenged to minimize the DA?


But that's why the apbt is what it is why would anyone want to change what this dog was intended to be? Than it wouldn't be an apbt anymore if the dog aggression was gone you have to take the good with the bad not try and change it to suit your needs!! there are many more rewards that come with owning this great breed that make the dog aggression worth dealing with . But if your not prepared to deal with da this is why the american staffordshire terrier exists it's a closely realated spin off of the apbt without the dog aggression like baha99 said you still have some that are da but many of them are not. You can still have a d/a apbt and still be successful and live peacefully with your dog in society you just have to accept them for what they are but you can't do that by wishful thinking you must be preapred to deal with d/a by making responsible choices if you want a dog to take to the dog park the apbt is not the right dog to do this with. Many people want the dog but don't want to accept the dog and all the history that comes along with it this is why you have so many accidents that could have been prevented had the owner just accepted the dog instead of setting them up to fail by putting their dogs in bad situations. We all have our opinions and we all make our own choices at the end of the day however knowing what I know and seeing what I have seen I am not going to go against the grain or take chances I love my dogs and this breed to much to put them in danger or anyone elses dogs. When you have seen your dog grab a hold of someone's dog and almost kill that person's dog your idea of socialization for this breed changes real quick. You can socialize and train your dog all day long but it does not mean that your dog will not and can not attack another dog if given the chance to I have seen it it was a come to jesus moment for me one of our dogs was just as playful and friendly as could be with other dogs UNTIL THAT ONE DAY came and from that point on he was no longer the same dog. Is it my fualt I have a dog who will kill other dogs if given the chance to? Not when I know we did everything we were suppose to from early puppy hood. Again this is part of owning the breed and you must never forget where they came from.


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## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

"But that's why the apbt is what it is why would anyone want to change what this dog was intended to be?"

You wouldnt want to change what they were intended to be? why not? What is the downside from having a non-DA APBT? If it still had the same body, drive, and playfullness of the APBT without the desire to actually _hurt_ the other dog, what is the problem? Honestly, I dont see how DA could be considered good unless you are simply using the dog as a status symbol to show how "tough" you are via your sidekick dog.

p.s. I say "you" in the general sense, I am not picking on YOU sadiesblues, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it. No hard feelings here, just argue for the sake of argue.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

SadieBlues said:


> I have *HEARD* and I am not saying this is *TRUE* but I have heard many fancier's of this breed say that if an apbt is not animal aggressive than they are a cur and are not bred to the standard of the *TRUE* apbt because animal aggression is one of the reason's these dogs were bred to begin with it's a natural trait bred into these dogs for many many years. Again I am not calling anyone's dogs curs for them not being d/a but to my understanding this trait should be a natural trait in these dogs. Unless like buz said you may have some selective breeding going on to create a strain of non aggressive dogs.


I think it's safe to say, I know where you've been lately...HA!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

college_dude said:


> "But that's why the apbt is what it is why would anyone want to change what this dog was intended to be?"
> 
> You wouldnt want to change what they were intended to be? why not? What is the downside from having a non-DA APBT? If it still had the same body, drive, and playfullness of the APBT without the desire to actually _hurt_ the other dog, what is the problem? Honestly, I dont see how DA could be considered good unless you are simply using the dog as a status symbol to show how "tough" you are via your sidekick dog.
> 
> p.s. I say "you" in the general sense, I am not picking on YOU sadiesblues, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it. No hard feelings here, just argue for the sake of argue.


Because the foundation of this breed was laid years and years ago dog aggression has been bred into these great gladiators for many years it's not about status symbol it's about who they are the core of their souls their sole purpose. At one time these dogs were fighting machines even though they are no longer fought that da trait is still well alive in the breed today . It's not about wanting the da or not wanting it .. It is what it is and because I love the heart drive and loyalty of these dogs I accept the dog aggression and deal with it accordingly. Thats the problem with man they are always trying to minipulate things to suit their own needs and lifestyles why try and fix what's not broken? If you don't like the fact that apbt's are dog aggressive than you shouldn't own one. There are way too many other breeds of dogs out there that are not da that is what you should be looking for if your not willing to accept the truth about these dogs. Breeder's have been trying to destroy this breed for far too long by breeding for size color ect. going against every damn thing these dogs were intended to be. There is only one apbt and that will never change regardless of bad breeding not when you have those good breeder's out there working diligintly to preserve this great breed and their foundation. And me personally being a true lover of these dogs I wouldn't want to change anything about them. JMO


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

ericschevy said:


> I think it's safe to say, I know where you've been lately...HA!


lmfao dying :rofl:


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Thats alot of the problem. I run into people EVERYDAY that have NEVER even seen a pit bull in their life. They will pet and love all over one of our dogs and then ask what kind it is. Then when we tell them they jump back and say "will it attack me?" People need to get their dogs out more into the spotlight. If not, this negative sterotype will always be there.
> 
> I use to think that pit bulls enjoyed to fight as well. Then I woke up and realized the truth. With a little time, work, and socialization you can have a much more balanced dog. We've proved it time and time again. Not only with our dogs, but others as well.
> 
> *We will continue to go to the dog park. We have dogs that are capable of going so we will take them. They enjoy it and have never given us reason not too take them*.


Let's assume for just one minute that for some unforeseen reason your dog rips into another seriously injuring it, for what ever reason. Who's going to be the bad guy and how heavily is the incident going to weigh on your conscience??


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

college_dude said:


> You wouldnt want to change what they were intended to be? why not? What is the downside from having a non-DA APBT? If it still had the same body, drive, and playfullness of the APBT without the desire to actually _hurt_ the other dog, what is the problem?


Because this is what the dog is. There are lots of traits that make dogs challenging to own and work with. We could breed the tenacity out of terriers, or the tendency to wander out of hounds. But why change the breeds? The capacity for aggression lies in every canine, APBT or not. APBTs just have a little bit more of it. It's not the end of the world. I keep three of these little fightin' bastards, and it's a challenge yes, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

You know, I'm no breeding expert, but part of me is willing to believe that there is some kind of correlation between the lack of HA and the presence of DA. The most human-friendly dogs in my house are also the ones who are most likely to grab another dog. There also seems to be a link between all the things you like about the breed and the DA. The foundation has been laid for many years. Short coat + lots of colors + wedge head + springy rear + low-set tail + lots of other stuff + dog-aggressive = American Pit Bull Terrier. It is the animal we've loved for decades, and the DA is a part of what it is.

I think we've got a responsibility to breed the best APBT we can. And a lot of the best APBTs are hot. We do a disservice to the breed by specifically selecting the dogs with no dog aggression and not just picking the dogs who show the best traits. Take, for example, Angus, who is an exemplary APBT, and also hot. Or Trinity, top-producing dam in the UKC, my all-time favorite female, also hot. Why would we remove dogs like that from the gene pool, in favor of the dog-friendly dog who may not boast the same type, structure, soundness, health, drive, and so on? Whether the dog park sect likes it or not, the finest examples of the breed are still quite hot. And those dogs should be bred. Not because they are hot, but because they exemplify the breed in type, drive, structure, temperament.

You say you love the breed, and would want to own one if they were APBT minus dog aggression. Have you ever thought that the dog aggression is somehow tied into what they are? A lot of the dogs you see running in happy packs are not the classic APBT modeled after the old warriors. Go on the Mugleston site and you will see dogs frolicking together. Go on the sites of the really top-notch breeders producing true-to-type APBTs, and you generally will not.

Breeders have a responsibility to preserve the breed, not change it to make it easier. If the best dogs are the Anguses and Trinitys of the world, those are the ones that should be bred. The cold dogs that I've seen, I just don't consider them to be anywhere near as nice as the hot ones. If a dog-hot temperament comes along with the total package, I'll take it in a heartbeat. If the nicest dog in my house was also the coldest, that's the one I'd breed. But that's a complete hypothetical because my experience being around the breed has taught me that that's an unlikely scenario.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> Because this is what the dog is. There are lots of traits that make dogs challenging to own and work with. We could breed the tenacity out of terriers, or the tendency to wander out of hounds. But why change the breeds? The capacity for aggression lies in every canine, APBT or not. APBTs just have a little bit more of it. It's not the end of the world. I keep three of these little fightin' bastards, and it's a challenge yes, but I wouldn't have it any other way.
> 
> You know, I'm no breeding expert, but part of me is willing to believe that there is some kind of correlation between the lack of HA and the presence of DA. The most human-stable dogs in my house are also the ones who are most likely to grab another dog. Who am I to go against the foundation that has been laid out for me?
> 
> ...


I LOVE ANGUS !!! I was just looking at him drooling on my keyboard lmao. Very good post Lindsey:clap::goodpost:


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Plain and simple, if you're not breeding for the total dog, you are disrespecting the entire breed. If you can't stomach the total dog, well there are plenty of other breeds out there. The APBT is not for everyone. So, why the obsession if the reality of the dog is so unpleasing?


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> I dont see how you can call something a spin-off when its EXACTLY the same as before. We're just breeding out an unwanted characteristic.


 You have to remember, the APBT is not a dog defined by outward appearance. It is defined by inner qualities. The dog cannot possibly be "EXACTLY" the same if you breed out the most fundamental traits.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

buzhunter said:


> You have to remember, the APBT is not a dog defined by outward appearance. It is defined by inner qualities. The dog cannot possibly be "EXACTLY" the same if you breed out the most fundamental traits.


It's an unused and unwanted trait. The top quality of a pit bull is its heart. Gameness, which doesnt always mean d/a. We keep the drive, its just for other things now.

Do you agree that in the old days fanciers bred for ability to work? Guess what, we are too.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

SadieBlues said:


> Because the foundation of this breed was laid years and years ago dog aggression has been bred into these great gladiators for many years it's not about status symbol it's about who they are the core of their souls their sole purpose. At one time these dogs were fighting machines even though they are no longer fought that da trait is still well alive in the breed today . It's not about wanting the da or not wanting it .. It is what it is and because I love the heart drive and loyalty of these dogs I accept the dog aggression and deal with it accordingly. Thats the problem with man they are always trying to minipulate things to suit their own needs and lifestyles why try and fix what's not broken? If you don't like the fact that apbt's are dog aggressive than you shouldn't own one. There are way too many other breeds of dogs out there that are not da that is what you should be looking for if your not willing to accept the truth about these dogs. Breeder's have been trying to destroy this breed for far too long by breeding for size color ect. going against every damn thing these dogs were intended to be. There is only one apbt and that will never change regardless of bad breeding not when you have those good breeder's out there working diligintly to preserve this great breed and their foundation. And me personally being a true lover of these dogs I wouldn't want to change anything about them. JMO


You can still have the heart, drive, & loyalty without dog aggression. We would never try to destroy the breed. I could care less about size or color. Thats not what makes a dog. Dog aggression was fine 30-100+ years ago, but that was a different time. Something needs to change, otherwise this breed we love some much will be taken away from us. All these idiots that have a yard full of dogs on short heavy chains breeding a litter a month and not doing ANYTHING with their dogs is whats ruining our breed. These dogs need to be in the media spotlight doing positive things instead of the negative.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

bahamutt99 said:


> Would you euth a dog-aggressive dog that came out of your program? Say, a throwback to before you started a program based on your own criteria? Or what if it was just a normal dog like plenty of non-APBTs who don't like other dogs?


Absolutley not. I would put that dog in the home of a person I trust and make them agree to spay/neuter. When we first rescued Tiger, he HATED other dogs. After a few months of rehabilitation he now ENJOYS being with other dogs. Sometimes you just have to evaluate the situation and make the proper changes.



> And I will give you that. Not all Pit Bulls want to fight. However, _advising as a general rule that it is a good thing to take an APBT to the dog park_ is risky advice, don't you think? Even if someone has a fantastic 6-month-old that they "know" inside and out, do you not agree that these dogs can still "turn on" when they hit maturity? Would you say it is a reasonable statement that the dog park is a very bad place for a scrap to take place?


As I've said before, if you have a dog thats able to go to the park then take them. If not, then don't take them. Simple as that.

And of course ANY DOG can "turn-on" once they hit maturity. It's up to the owner to be responsible enough to be able to control it.



> A group of dogs where "pack members" are regularly being rotated in and out of the general population with no introductory period? You consider that controlled? Let's make the comparison between that and the other "social environments."
> 
> Agility trial: Supervised by ring stewards and a judge. One dog off-lead. In a ring. By itself. With the other dogs outside the ring. They do not take a dozen dogs and have them run together. When your dog is done in the ring, you put their leash back on.
> 
> ...


Actually, at dog parks there are alot of "lifeguards on duty". Usually each dog has their own "lifeguard". I cant count the number of times at petsmart or petco other dogs have came up nose to nose to our dogs. Just because they are on-leash, doesnt always mean that they are under control. Next we have agility or lure chasing. A dog running loose that could catch a glimpse of an on-leash dog and hit it. I've seen dogs more than once slip collars and go after other dogs in the show ring. I've seen a dog bust out of its crate and lock on to another dog at a weight pull.



> BTW, I'm not interested in changing your mind. But if your advice to newbies is to take their dogs to a dog park, I will certainly come up with information as to why that shouldn't happen.


As I will continue to explain to them reality.

If you have a well balanced, well mannered, properly socialized dog that you are dominant over and can control then take them to the dog park. If you are not able to properly train and control your dog, then dont take them. It's as simple as that.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

bahamutt99 said:


> And they can still win _with_ being aggressive if the trainer is worth anything. There is no reason to change the breed for sanctioned dog sports. The only reason to specifically breed out the dog aggression would be if you specifically wanted a dog to run and play with other dogs. Which brings us back to the original point of why get an APBT if dog aggression is an issue? I vigorously protest attempts at making this breed easier so just anybody can own it. It cheapens the accomplishments of those who work with APBTs and succeed with them, without breeding out the challenging traits.


But what is the reason behind having a d/a dog? You can scream "history" all you want but thats crap. THE ONLY 2 REASONS TO WANT A DOG AGGRESSIVE DOG ARE TO FIGHT IT OR TO IMPRESS PEOPLE.

The reason I want non-aggressive dogs is to show people that pit bulls can be like any other dog and sucessfully exist in todays society with minimal problems. I dont know if you have ever been to a BSL meeting, but I have several times. People arent only afraid of pit bulls killing them, but also killing their animals. You have no idea how many peoples minds we have changed about this breed by introducing them to our dogs.



> It cheapens the accomplishments of those who work with APBTs and succeed with them, without breeding out the challenging traits.


Thats about the silliest thing I have ever read.

We work with pit bulls and succeed with them very well. We have 3 adba aces, 4 or 5 with their UWP titles, 2 NKC pull champions, 1 NKC grch puller, 1 show champion with 4 best in show wins, 2 CGC titled dogs, a t/t 1 & 2 dog, and almost all with obedience, rally, agility, or protection training.

Our "Lil' Tinkerbelle" dog has pulled 10,275 lbs at a adba show weighing in at only 51 lbs. She is ranked #9 weight puller in the adba and has won more body pounds that I can remember.

And all that was acomplished with non-D/A dogs.


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

HEy Rock Creek, you do have some great dogs-- I've seen Tink pull and am so very proud of the work you have done in improving your dog temperment. I just know for this new owner to the breed, I took my girl Ruthie to the dog park with the hopes of good socialization. Unfortunately, with my inexperience and the other park goers, they didn't call off their dogs fast enough and I didn't know enough to call off any rough housing that got intense. Now my girl Ruthie is DA. 
What I have learned has been through trial and error through this board.

While I am so very proud of the YEARS of work and experience you have gained with the mutiple generations of dogs you have bred. You make us all look good with such beautifully behaved dogs. However I can only speak for myself and I wish I had never gone to a dog park. I did not have enough experience then and would equally warn off other new APBT owners who have never had the breed. I didn't know enough. I am still learning. I hope one day I will be to your expertise but until then, I won't go.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

bluefamily said:


> HEy Rock Creek, you do have some great dogs-- I've seen Tink pull and am so very proud of the work you have done in improving your dog temperment. I just know for this new owner to the breed, I took my girl Ruthie to the dog park with the hopes of good socialization. Unfortunately, with my inexperience and the other park goers, they didn't call off their dogs fast enough and I didn't know enough to call off any rough housing that got intense. Now my girl Ruthie is DA.
> What I have learned has been through trial and error through this board.
> 
> While I am so very proud of the YEARS of work and experience you have gained with the mutiple generations of dogs you have bred. You make us all look good with such beautifully behaved dogs. However I can only speak for myself and I wish I had never gone to a dog park. I did not have enough experience then and would equally warn off other new APBT owners who have never had the breed. I didn't know enough. I am still learning. I hope one day I will be to your expertise but until then, I won't go.


Thanks alot! I hope to come back down there next year! The best way to start is to take a young dog to the dog park and do it alot. (of course make sure it has had its first few series of shots) Consistancy is the key. The more you do it, the more they will learn. If you take them there throughout their growing stages they will never think twice about going. They will actually look foward to it. If you have an older dog thats already d/a, it takes a little more time for them to become stable enough. In some cases they may never become stable enough to go.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Do you agree that in the old days fanciers bred for ability to work? Guess what, we are too.


Yes, but would you agree that in order to emulate the breed they culled what you breed and bred what you'd cull? I'm sure you have the best of intentions but I'm also old fashioned and believe that somethings are better left alone. You'll never convince me that working ability or DA amounts to gameness. Lots of breeds can work, lots of breeds can be aggro doesn't make them APBTs. Either way, I think your heart is in the right place. You seem to really care about your dogs.


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## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

i personally don't see anything wrong with breeding dogs with less dog aggressive tendencies. i understand the logic behind preserving a breed, people will always be doing that. i love the qualities of pits. there are few breeds that act the way they do and i love them for those qualities. however, i got bullies after my last pit died because i have a daughter and they are(not always, but the one's i chose) alot less wiley and very calm around my daughter. i don't so much as have to worry about them knocking her over when they are excited. they are so very gentle. they are bullier, they are blue, they are big(well goliath is), they are beautiful, and they are really good with kids. 

i certainly don't see those traits being disrespectful to the breed, just a different breed really. the fact that they aren't a perfect example of a pitbull doesn't bother me a bit. they are the ultimate family dog. i trust them more than a golden retriever. they are even more loving, better protection dogs, nowhere near as bad with the shedding, they smell better, they are easier pups, they are calm, they posses many traits i want in a dog, and i don't think i could could get in just any breed. yes i can get some of these traits in other dogs but not without other draw backs. certain mastiffs i love, but too big. i love me an english bulldog, they are comic geniuses, but too much drool, and all kinds of other health issues. i love apbt's but they can be a bit hyper and dog and cat aggressive; my salon doesn't need the risk. it can be a pain keeping them up from as many dogs as they have running through. 

i think it's cool that people breed different variations, especially when they do it right. i think it helps public perception too. it's not like you just want to use the non dog aggressive dogs as baiting dogs do you? what just take those pups out back and hit them in the head with a hammer? it's just seems like we are in a new age and alot of people don't need those dogs, but there is a grwing demand for pits and being able to find them bred as better pets is a good thing. plus there are game bred dogs born in a liter that are not dog aggressive all the time( alot of those traits can be warded off and i think should be). just because they aren't actually dog aggressive doesn't mean they are submissive and won't preform their breed function either. i don't know. i'm just not as much of a purest i suppose.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

buzhunter said:


> Yes, but would you agree that in order to emulate the breed they culled what you breed and bred what you'd cull? I'm sure you have the best of intentions but I'm also old fashioned and believe that somethings are better left alone. You'll never convince me that working ability or DA amounts to gameness. Lots of breeds can work, lots of breeds can be aggro doesn't make them APBTs. Either way, I think your heart is in the right place. You seem to really care about your dogs.


They didnt cull what I breed and I would never cull a dog unless it was h/a. We've been lucky enough though the years to never have a problem with that. They wanted dead game dogs that would never quit. Guess what? Thats what I want too! I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I know what I know and what I know is the truth. Its stupid to want an aggressive dog unless you're planning to fight it.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> As I will continue to explain to them reality.
> 
> If you have a well balanced, well mannered, properly socialized dog that you are dominant over and can control then take them to the dog park. If you are not able to properly train and control your dog, then dont take them. It's as simple as that.


Not the least bit conceited, are we?  When bluefamily took their dog to the dog park, and it ended up turning on, do you think that's not reality? When people post these sad posts about "help, my dogs got along great for years and now they don't," that's not reality? Maybe there is more reality in the thought that most APBTs are dog aggressive than there is in your belief that all well-socialized, well-trained dogs can go to the dog park. I will continue to reject your notion that because a dog is unsuitable for the dog park, that it is unbalanced, unsocialized, had a poor owner, etc.

Just because you have bred your own "line" to show no aggressive tendencies, that doesn't mean that the APBT at large should follow suit. I sincerely hope they don't. Because -- and please don't take this the wrong way, it's just my opinion -- not everybody wants your dogs. I've looked, and I think there are other dogs who exemplify the breed better. The best pulldogs aren't necessarily the best APBTs. (Whoppers and Daggers for example.) Any dog should be able to obtain a CGC with a minimum of training. I've done a few of those myself, and have a few more upcoming with my DA dogs. I don't know what's involved in NKC showing, so I wont comment on that. Protection training, thank God, is not my thing. I protect my dogs, not the other way around. I don't know what you mean by TT 1 & 2, but I've got a few TTs as well. Actually can lay claim to the first TT-titled Dogo. 



> But what is the reason behind having a d/a dog? You can scream "history" all you want but thats crap.


You don't believe that dog aggression has always been in the breed?



> I dont know if you have ever been to a BSL meeting


I have. Believe it or not, you're not the only one who is "doing good" for the breed. I just do it while offering sensible information about dog aggression, not suggesting we should train/breed it out.

Just a thought on dog parks in general. Do you know that APBT owners are not the only type who don't believe the dog park is a positive place? On an all-breed forum I frequent, a JRT owner was explaining why it is unsuitable for her breed as well.



> Thats about the silliest thing I have ever read.


Then you clearly don't read often. 



> And all that was acomplished with non-D/A dogs.


I've read your accomplishments. You're still missing the point. Let me make it as clear for you as I can. *By breeding these dogs to be easier for the novice owner, you take away from the accomplishments of people who work hard training the classic, dog-aggressive APBT.* Get it? If I can get cracking on a dog who has those tendencies, and wring a UCD out of them, and then you come along with your purpose-bred line of non-DA happy dog park dogs and do the same thing, which individual accomplishment has more meaning?

Non-DA Goldens and Labs and plenty of other breeds take top honors in lots of sports where our breed is under-represented. When someone comes through with a true APBT and does the same thing, it has meaning. And it shows that DA dogs are not the worthless, single-purpose idiots you make them out to be. If you're just going to water down the breed to make it easier to work with, then it may be impressive to those who don't know the dogs. But to those of which this breed is their passion, it falls flat.

Mr. Bleezy, I tried to read your post, but I have a hard time staying focused on text with no paragraph breaks. I think you said something about having your dogs out at a salon? Just curious, these are the same dogs you said would attack an infant in another thread, right? Do you not think that's far more damaging than the purist owners keeping to the true temperament of the breed?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Just a little bit of my own dogs.

Priest. Dog aggressive. Pulling at his first pull. Picked up 2 legs on his UWP. Ate no dogs.










Terra. Dog aggressive. Pulling at her first pull. Picked up 2 legs on her UWP. Ate no dogs.










Loki. Selectively dog aggressive. My reluctant little puller. Did 28x her weight on wheels this weekend, which is top-notch for her.










Ooooh, this is not my dog, but I love this girl. (The rednose in front.) Bad picture of her showing, I think at the Nationals in '06. This is Persephone, the first and so far only dual UKC/ADBA Grand Champion. Also titled in weight pull. Hot hot hot. Still ate no dogs. 










Loki doing obedience exercises for her UCD. She titled that weekend.


































Priest, Mr. Bad Attitude. Showing and winning in UKC.


































Terra, Psycho Bitch. Showing and winning in UKC.


















Ah, some pics from the good ol' days. Back when they all got along.


















Miss Selective DA, getting her TT. (It was cold outside.)


















The Queen Bee again, doing some agility.


































DA brat children enjoying the lake.










DA brat children creating urban art.










DA brat children riding in the car.










Oooh, another of Loki. This time at a canine carnival with hundreds of other dogs. She's doing a "treat pull" here.










Why again are we changing the breed? Why are we suggesting that DA dogs cannot live normal lives and only are of interest to dog fighters? I don't get it.


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## green machine (Sep 8, 2008)

I didnt mean for this to be a pissing match, I'm sure we can all agree to disagree? Different people believe different ways. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

bahamutt99 said:


> Not the least bit conceited, are we?  When bluefamily took their dog to the dog park, and it ended up turning on, do you think that's not reality? When people post these sad posts about "help, my dogs got along great for years and now they don't," that's not reality? Maybe there is more reality in the thought that most APBTs are dog aggressive than there is in your belief that all well-socialized, well-trained dogs can go to the dog park. I will continue to reject your notion that because a dog is unsuitable for the dog park, that it is unbalanced, unsocialized, had a poor owner, etc.
> 
> Just because you have bred your own "line" to show no aggressive tendencies, that doesn't mean that the APBT at large should follow suit. I sincerely hope they don't. Because -- and please don't take this the wrong way, it's just my opinion -- not everybody wants your dogs. I've looked, and I think there are other dogs who exemplify the breed better. The best pulldogs aren't necessarily the best APBTs. (Whoppers and Daggers for example.) Any dog should be able to obtain a CGC with a minimum of training. I've done a few of those myself, and have a few more upcoming with my DA dogs. I don't know what's involved in NKC showing, so I wont comment on that. Protection training, thank God, is not my thing. I protect my dogs, not the other way around. I don't know what you mean by TT 1 & 2, but I've got a few TTs as well. Actually can lay claim to the first TT-titled Dogo.
> 
> ...


WOW! You're bored arent you! I don't have time for this, I have a business to run!


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## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" (Aug 7, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> There's the problem. You're not the dominant one, he is.
> 
> You do what!?!? You dont correct him and teach him the proper way to act? Sounds like he needs guidance.
> 
> ...


You raise many valid points. Never said I was a smart man though!! I'll keep trying and keep your advice in mind. I wish I had 2-3 hours to spend there and that I could keep from getting angry at the people (I live on Long Island, NY. They act like their dogs are infant children that need all this over-protection). It would probably be easier if they just dropped off a few dogs and left and let me baby sit them all.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Thats alot of the problem. I run into people EVERYDAY that have NEVER even seen a pit bull in their life. They will pet and love all over one of our dogs and then ask what kind it is. Then when we tell them they jump back and say "will it attack me?" People need to get their dogs out more into the spotlight. If not, this negative sterotype will always be there.
> 
> I use to think that pit bulls enjoyed to fight as well. Then I woke up and realized the truth. With a little time, work, and socialization you can have a much more balanced dog. We've proved it time and time again. Not only with our dogs, but others as well.
> 
> *We will continue to go to the dog park. We have dogs that are capable of going so we will take them. They enjoy it and have never given us reason not too take them*.





ericschevy said:


> Let's assume for just one minute that for some unforeseen reason your dog rips into another seriously injuring it, for what ever reason. Who's going to be the bad guy and how heavily is the incident going to weigh on your conscience??


You never did answer me..


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## pipsqweek (Jul 22, 2007)

that was a great video. this is a good example of submissive dogs at the dog park. this is what makes it a good experience. these dogs will be the safest dogs because they are less likely to attract negative behavior. 
Rock Creek, it is true what you say. The dogs who do best at dog parks are those raised as puppies to socialize with dog park dogs. Older dogs have a harder time understanding the concept of allowing unstable dogs to mingle with them...and manny dog park dogs are unstable and normally wouldnt be allowed into a stable pack. you still have to guide them through their learning experience even at the dog park, with too many bad experience a dog can turn aggressive, dominant, or insecure...which will all trigure an attack.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

ericschevy said:


> You never did answer me..


Because you must be bored. As I am. Rock Creek is far too busy to be bothered. And, you know, rather than just wait until there was time, they had to come and make it seem as though folks who care about this issue are fools with too much time on their hands.



> that was a great video. this is a good example of submissive dogs at the dog park. this is what makes it a good experience. these dogs will be the safest dogs because they are less likely to attract negative behavior.


Clarify, please. If you're talking about my video, the submissive mastiff was extremely uncomfortable being there. She was not getting any enjoyment out of the dog park, and was pissing on herself because other dogs were mobbing her. You could hear the owner say that she didn't care that the dog didn't enjoy the dog park; she went there because *she* enjoyed the dog park.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

ericschevy said:


> You never did answer me..


Sorry that I missed your question.



> Originally Posted by ericschevy
> Let's assume for just one minute that for some unforeseen reason your dog rips into another seriously injuring it, for what ever reason. Who's going to be the bad guy and how heavily is the incident going to weigh on your conscience??


I would be the bad guy of course. Just as any other person with any other breed of dog would be if the same happened to them. At our dog park we have 2 sections, large and small dog section. Which I believe really helps things out although our dogs are great with smaller ones. But point being, I dont think that a dog could kill or seriously injure another dog of equal or greater size in a matter of seconds. Which is all it would/has ever taken for me to break up a scrap. And guess what? I wouldnt keep the dogs seperated long (if it was ok with the owner). I would work with them together and create a resolution.

Perfect example from last night. I had the rescue (Tiger) that I had talked about earlier in this thread out walking last night. Nikki (my girlfriend) came out with Saki, a newer yonger rescue that we've had less than a week. We were letting them play when Saki started playing a little rougher that Tiger likes and he snapped at her twice. I pulled him back made him sit for a few. After that I had Nikki come back over with Saki and put them right back together. They were fine after that for the rest of the night. Sometimes it just takes showing them whats right and wrong. Tiger was trying to show dominance and I stepped in and made myself the dominant one.

I'm not sure how it would weigh on my conscience. If there were any substancial injuries that needed vet care, of course I would take care of it all. They are our dogs and we hold full responsibility for everything that they do. (wrong or right) But the way I look at it, dogs, just like children (and even some adults) they will get into scuffles. Always have and always will. It just all depends on how you handle it. Lastly, I'm not a person who lives in the past. I will make it over a hurdle and keep going never looking back. So I dont think that it would affect me for very long.

This will be my last post in this thread. I'm seriously working 7 day weeks trying to keep up with business and get the new yard set-up. Here it is Thanksgiving and i'm about to build two 24ft metal signs and hopefully install them later this afternoon. Honestly, I havent read most of this thread and probably won't. Nothing against anybody, just dont have the time. But anyways, it was fun! :clap:


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Sorry that I missed your question.
> 
> I dont think that a dog could kill or seriously injure another dog of equal or greater size in a matter of seconds. Which is all it would/has ever taken for me to break up a scrap. And guess what? I wouldnt keep the dogs seperated long (if it was ok with the owner). I would work with them together and create a resolution.


Wow... You are going to learn a lot of lessons the hard way. Which, sadly is how theses dogs end up in the news most times. The irresponsible owner learns a lesson, and the responsible owners pay the price. Thanks in advance.


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## pipsqweek (Jul 22, 2007)

sorry baha i was talking about the first vid on the thread. when i posted i didn't realize there was 6 pages to this thread so i only saw the first page and posted based on that. and Damn!!! u really give ur dogs alot of activity. great stuff. u even do schutzhund stuff too huh? that's awsome. 

Im suprised ur dogs are dog aggressive with all that exposer u give them. By the looks of ur video with that piss-pants-mastiff in it (yea i saw that poor guy) it seems like priest is the only real bad one with dominant-aggression problems. he looks so proud of himself... a little too proud to be around other dogs u know wat i mean? the other two look kinda mild. it is more of a bad introduction that trigues them. such as if the other dogs aren't respectful in their approach to ur dogs, ur dogs will snap on them...right? I know that many people block off the possibility of there dogs getting along with other dogs in their minds and they can never make their dogs meet others because of their own tension. this tension coming from the fear of their "pitbull" getting into a fight.

I guesse this comes from our own experiences and beliefs. I know u believe in those strong fighting genes taking over their minds, but I believe that their k9 genes are stronger and have greater value psychologically when they are provided with the proper life. I have brought many DA pitbulls over to my home over the years (even pits who were actually fighters in the ring) to spend weeks with my dogs and they do great after they are blended in properly. they can play great with all my dogs and can meet strange dogs without a problem. Yea I've broken up my share of fights, but never anything bad, and thats only in the beggining days of their introduction. SO I guesse that is my experience which makes my beliefs so strong to me and others have their beliefs that are just as strong to them.

But I'll tell u what... u really do care for ur dogs and give them a great life. I would love to have time for schutzhund work, but most of my time is spent working with the pack as a whole. Best of wishes


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

pipsqweek said:


> u really give ur dogs alot of activity. great stuff. u even do schutzhund stuff too huh? that's awsome.


Thanks! But no, no Schutzhund here. Conformation, obedience, agility and weight pull. Add dock diving to my list of things to check out. I've thought about doing Schutzhund, but I really have my hands full where I'm at right now.



> Im suprised ur dogs are dog aggressive with all that exposer u give them.


Well, that's kind of where this whole argument lies. Dog aggression is genetically-factored. It isn't just based on how much socialization and training they get. If a well-socialized dog can become hot at maturity, and a less-exposed dog can stay cold their whole lives, that tells me that there are more important factors in the equation than the amount of socialization they get. Not that I'm downplaying the value of socialization. I try to get my dogs out in public at least once a week.



> By the looks of ur video with that piss-pants-mastiff in it (yea i saw that poor guy) it seems like priest is the only real bad one with dominant-aggression problems. he looks so proud of himself... a little too proud to be around other dogs u know wat i mean? the other two look kinda mild.


I only had 2 dogs with me that day. And yes, Priest is very full of himself. Like a good bull n' terrier breed should be.  It's one of the things that make him a good show dog. He likes to be seen, likes to show off, is afraid of nothing.



> it is more of a bad introduction that trigues them. such as if the other dogs aren't respectful in their approach to ur dogs, ur dogs will snap on them...right?


That is part of it. For sure, a bad intro will make things much harder. But my dogs also decide for themselves who they like and who they don't. Loki and my other girl Terra (not in the vid) decided back in May that they were tired of looking at each other. They seem to have their moments where they want to interact peacefully, but right now it's not worth the risk of putting them back together. If keeping them separated has led to them being more tolerant of each other, that's what I'm going to do, at least for now.



> I guesse this comes from our own experiences and beliefs. I know u believe in those strong fighting genes taking over their minds,


It's not a blind faith, unfortunately. I've lived with the situations where two dogs get along great until some little thing ends it all. And I guess the "fighting genes taking over their brain" is an apt statement. Because there is sure no reaching them in any normal way when they've decided to engage an "opponent." They definitely go into a different zone when that happens.



> Yea I've broken up my share of fights, but never anything bad, and thats only in the beggining days of their introduction.


I wish you luck and I hope it continues to go well for you. I've broken up more fights than I'd like to cop to. I personally don't consider them true fights until the dogs are in holds, and that's always bad. I've learned to strategically place my breaking sticks around the house, just in case. But trigger management has served me well, too. I keep the dogs in their comfort zone most of the time, and they, in turn, don't fight.



> But I'll tell u what... u really do care for ur dogs and give them a great life.


Thank you. I guess that's the most important thing, right? I will never convince others that the dog park is unsafe, and will likewise never be convinced that it's an appropriate place to bring an APBT. I can't guarantee that I wont continue to speak out against them -- most likely we'll go through another thread like this in a month or so -- but I do agree that giving your dogs the best life possible is the single most important thing.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

buzhunter said:


> Wow... You are going to learn a lot of lessons the hard way. Which, sadly is how theses dogs end up in the news most times. The irresponsible owner learns a lesson, and the responsible owners pay the price. Thanks in advance.


That's exactly what I was getting at..:clap:


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I've just skimmed through this thread. Don't have time to read it all. But, I just gotta say, the dog park is a BAD BAD BAD EVIL place. No reason to justify taking a dog there. Thank God we don't have any in this area.


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## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

woops i tried to quote something and it messed up


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## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

:goodpost:


Rock Creek Kennels said:


> But what is the reason behind having a d/a dog? You can scream "history" all you want but thats crap. THE ONLY 2 REASONS TO WANT A DOG AGGRESSIVE DOG ARE TO FIGHT IT OR TO IMPRESS PEOPLE.
> 
> The reason I want non-aggressive dogs is to show people that pit bulls can be like any other dog and sucessfully exist in todays society with minimal problems. I dont know if you have ever been to a BSL meeting, but I have several times. People arent only afraid of pit bulls killing them, but also killing their animals. You have no idea how many peoples minds we have changed about this breed by introducing them to our dogs.
> 
> ...


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Just thought I'd share two pics I snapped today. These are two lovely ladies who tried to beat the snot out of each other back in May. I've been working with them and respecting their need to be largely separated, and as a result, they're riding peacefully in the car together. One is tied, yes, but that's a small sacrifice. Should be culled from the gene pool because of dog aggression? I disagree. :roll:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Hehehe Terra looks pissed off in that pic she's got the stank eye on ... No they shouldn't be culled for being aggressive people who continue to go against everything this breed was intended to be should not be allowed to own a pitbull. JMO


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## Mrs_APBT_America (Jul 19, 2008)

Well I guess I shouldn't own a pitbull, neither should my parents, grandparents and great grandparents as none of their APBT's ever showed any DA. Nevaeh still doesn't show any DA at parks, or anywhere. Today I was walking her and this JRT ran up to her off leash with his hair all up on end, Nevaeh just sat down and let him smell her. He even nipped her on the neck and she just looked up at me and acted like he wasn't even there.

Right now we had to move in with my mother in law until March because that is when my husband and I are moving to Texas, well she has 2 mean, nippy chihuahuas who think they can bite at anything they come across. They go out in the back yard with my 2 pits and lab and act like they are bad to the bones. At feeding time Miss Priss, the younger chihuahua will go up to Nevaeh's food and snap at her and Nevaeh will walk off and lay in her crate. She is also taken to the dog park and she does wonders. I guess she must be another cur!





































I trust my APBT's around dogs more than I trust people in general!


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> Hehehe Terra looks pissed off in that pic she's got the stank eye on ...


Believe it or not, I think she was more irritated that I was disturbing her nap. I looked back several times and her and Loki were sound asleep.

I wouldn't necessarily say that people who go against the breed's nature shouldn't own one. After all, it's more agreeable for most to not have to worry about the things a lot of us live with. But I would feel *much* more comfortable putting a dog with people who have had a lot of experience working with hot dogs, training them, keeping them separated, etc. Someone who anticipates DA and prepares for it. Then if the dog ends up never turning on, they can be pleasantly surprised. I don't care that some people breed their dogs for reduced DA, as long as they have some kind of sensible criteria. However, when they turn around and bash preserving the breed in its historical form, that's when my hackles go up.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again ad nauseum until you think I'm a broken record. I don't want this breed to be easier, less aggro, less drivey, more PC, mellower, more watered down, or any other changes made with the intent of making it an easier dog for any JQP to own. Part of the appeal to me is that these are *not* easy dogs, they *are* a challenge, they're *not* for everybody, and that makes the rewards that come from dealing with them that much sweeter. I can guarantee you the day that little hot-head Terra or Priest get their UCDs and UAGIs like Loki has, I'm going to be one cheesin' mofo. Because we will have worked through the DA and still managed to come out on top, _without_ changing the breed to better suit what we do.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Nevaeh is also still a puppy even though some pups can turn da early on... they will usually show da closer to maturity. I have one that hit 2 and became a totally different dog with no for warning I realized he was da when he had our neighbors dog in his mouth. DA can come on at anytime are you prepared for it if your girl latches on to someones dog at a park or the other way around? 

All of mine are people dogs they love people I trust them with kids the elderly all people in general but other dogs or small animals forget it. But hey you know I have been around these dogs for some time now and I have yet to own a pitbull that was not da never. I learned the hard way I wish I had someone like baha99 with several years of exp on me training, raising and showing these dogs tell me what I know now it would have saved me a lot of money and grief. I think if you have several people saying these dogs are not meant for the dog park there may be some truth to that message and you shouldn't just ignore it because you think you know your dog so well I thought I knew mine too guess what I didn't!! 

Like I said people are going to do what they are going to do regardless until something bad happens then it will be too late. As harsh as it may sound people need to wake up and realize they don't own a poodle and I am not trying to be mean I am just speaking from my exp. When something bad happens with this breed it effects the breed as a whole. When my dog your dog or anyones dog attacks another dog it's just another reason to fuel BSL.

This is why I feel that if people who own these dogs are not going to be responsible and live by the saying never trust your pitbull not to fight they do not have any business owning this breed that statement is not directed at any particular person it's how I see things in general . This is just my opinion you have the right to feel anyway you choose but this is something I feel very strongly about because I have been there I know better now and I am doing what's right for my dogs that's all I can do at the end of the day they are my sole responsibility and I will do everything in my power to protect them. Even if you think dog parks are the best thing in the world for your dog don't just ignore what other people on here are saying because you have never seen da in your dogs you never know when that day may come for you and your dogs you have to be prepared for this. I mean well just so you know I am not trying to be a jerk about this we will just agree to disagree and I hope you will continue to have positive exp with your dog at these parks it is possible that she will never show any signs of da but the chances of that happening with this breed are very slim. If you have never seen or delt with dog aggression at any level with these dogs your in for a rude awakening should your girl turn da in the future it's not pretty ecspecially when it sneaks up on you without warning.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Learn what these dogs are about, decide if you agree with the way things are, and then decide if you want the responsibility. If you can't agree with the definition, then don't buy them, don't rescue them, damn sure don't try breeding them, and last but not least - leave them alone and mind your own. The last thing these dogs need is another hero trying to re-invent the APBT. There are more spin-offs and different versions of this great dog than can even be counted. The funny thing is - it's exactly what is causing the overpopulation and media exposure. Again, if you can't stomach the APBT for what it is, then MOVE ON.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Hows everyones reputation level sitting??


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

*???*



ericschevy said:


> Hows everyones reputation level sitting??


EDucate me please...what does that mean and how can you tell? Is that the number of dog faces you have under your avatar?


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## Mrs_APBT_America (Jul 19, 2008)

Well first of all that is the thing, I am NOT new to the breed. They have been in my family for ages. We never did breed but they are the ONLY breed we prefer because of their loyalness. I can't stand the temperment of any other dog pretty much. The only reason we own a lab is because my husband hunts and has always wanted one so Duke was a gift for his birthday. I can't stand the temperment of labs, golden retrievers, cattle dogs, etc. because they are not the family dogs people make them out to be. I know this because I to have owned them therefore the only dog that I agree with and the breed agrees and suites me is the APBT! They have been the perfect family dog for as long as I can remember.

Yes Nevaeh is only 7 months, but so were all my other APBTs I have previously owned and own now at one time and NONE have ever shown any DA, even when I have not been around watching them. I BELIEVE ANY DOG CAN BE DA, SO I AM NOT SAYING IT CAN'T HAPPEN! I DO OWN A BREAK STICK BUT THANKFULLY I HAVE NEVER HAD TO USE IT ON MY OWN DOGS! I think people on here get to hyped up on this particular breed soo much that they make the APBT actually look worse! I don't do show, or events, or anything like that. I own my pitbulls because they have proven themselves to be the best family dogs. I know because I grew up with them, my mother grew up with them and so forth in their generations. We have never locked them away from one another at night time, we don't seperate them at feeding time. We don't treat them like people think you should treat pitbulls, we treat them like any other dog--A FAMILY!!


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## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se (Sep 15, 2008)

i just want to put it out there that KENYA does very well with new dogs, she is always excited to meet and greet. She obviously knows her place and wont try to "step up" to anyone who she knows will just put her in her place. HOWEVER!!! being that she is a pitbull and it is in her genes to be DA i still keep a close eye on every meet. You never know when that one dog may be the one to piss her off. she NEVER meets a new dog witout being on her leash and she NEVER EVER is unsupervised with new or old friends. EVER as much as i trust her and feel no worries aout her meetin new dogs, she has to e with me and has to be on her leash...


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## pipsqweek (Jul 22, 2007)

I tend to agree with both sides of the argument. Yes, pitbulls can be very sociable with other dogs. and yes, they tend to be dog aggressive by genetics. But, there are other breeds who are from dog fighting origins like the shar-pei. yet there are no bans on them. and they are considered to be lovely pets. Many breeds are classified as being dog aggressive. So I don't think it is necessarily the genes of a pitbull rather than the energy level, intensity, and strength of the dog/breed we are speaking of. 

Most of the pitbull fights I have seen have been started by typical sircumstances: dominance, tension, frustration, or insecurity. Any dog will find a solution to eliminate these states of mind. The first thing a fighting/hunting/gaurding breed will come up with as a first solution will be to bite. But they always look at the situation as dogs first. Once the unbalanced state of mind is there...that's when the pitbull kicks in. So to me it is our job as owners to keep them balanced so that we don't trigure the pitbull to kick in. This is why a dog park is a bad idea. We have no control here and anybody's dog can easily come in and trigure your dog. And once that fight break in it is a PayPerView match. Our dogs are very powerful. most are high energy, and are very intense. We have to honor that and provide them with a proper life or else they are misserable and try their best to put up with us, but they can only tolerate so much. They need a release.

that being said, every dog is different. which is why we have different opinions. some have been "lucky" because their dogs can tolerate more than others. Whether it be by genetics, energy level, or nurture. Others have had typcally bad experiences with thir dogs. We have to view our dogs as individuals and build a lifestyle for them around that. Every dog regardless of breed has a snapping point, some haven't been pushed enough yet to experience and hopefully they never do. I have never seen a balanced pitbull attack a dog just because. Even ex-fighting dogs I have handled have never atacked another dog for no reason. Shure when they first come in they are in full combat mode just from the presence of a dog, but after they are blended into the pack (which can take anywhere from a week to two months) they don't attack unless given a normal dog's reason. This to means that we should consider what our dog aggressive dog's are trigured by first before acknowledging that it is just because they are pitbulls. Is it an issue of a lack of socialization, fear, insecurity, dominance, or frustration. Then we have to solve these issues by whether providing more exercise, better leadership, or proper exposer to situations to build their confidence. In my experience this has always been the solution to solving aggression. And it is a daily process to ensure that they never go into a pitbull state of mind.


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## Coletrain (Oct 26, 2008)

I stay away from dog parks because no matter how well my dogs behave that doesn't mean the other dogs will be. Lets face it, any dog when put in a bad situation will fight but like other people have said, these dogs may not start a fight but they will end it. No need to put my dog in a bad situation. Last thing I would to see is the headlines of the local papers stating " Pit Bull kills beloved family pet at local dog park" . This breed gets enough bad publicity and there is no need to fuel that fire. People see the headline and immediately it will be my dogs fault. It doesn't matter if Joe Schmoe brings his lab to the park and all this dog does is mount and bite at all the other dogs and is totally out of control until he comes to mine. While the other dogs might be submissive or put up with it, mine will be like " I don't f'n think so!" and will put a stop to it. Like any other dog you need to set them up for success and imho a dog park does just the opposite. 

About 3 months ago my ex-wife and her boyfriend were at a dog park with their 120lb mastiff. His dog Isabella is a great dog and has been going to this park with her for 6 years. Well some moron brought his boxer to the dog park and the dog was running wild. The other people at the park would always talk to the guy about keeping an eye on his dog or try to get it under control but he went to the park to socialize and hit on women. He could care less about the dog. It was his way of letting the dog run wild outside for a couple hours and not having to watch him. I guess one day Isabella was grumpy or just had enough of the dog and now there is one less boxer out there. There was a small blurb in the local papers about it and thats about it. A whole whopping 3 printed lines. Now if it was one of my dogs it would be on the front page as well as the 5,6 and 10 o'clock news. Thanks but no thanks. 

All it takes is that one new dog with no manners or an attitude problem to put you on the 10 o'clock news. I will continue to take them to the tennis courts where it is just them and they can run around there for additional exercise as well as take them to Petsmart and Petco for controlled interaction.


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## pipsqweek (Jul 22, 2007)

fair enough, Coletrain. I think everyone can share some beliefs in at least one thing or another that you said here. Although some will still trust the dog parks. I trust dogs... I dont trust people. And people bring dogs to the dog park... so there u go.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

i voted NO


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

I vote Oh hell NO!

More often than they should, pit bull owners wonder about the dog park issue, finding themselves explaining to others that their dog is not a "killing machine," it is not "one of those pit bulls" and there is no reason that their dog can't enjoy off leash time with unknown dogs. Some will even insist that "you only add to the misconception toward this breed when you don't allow your friendly pit bull to go to the dog park." After all, these people argue that it is all about "how we raise them" and providing socialization is the key to no problem dogs. Unfortunately, that's not true.

Dog aggression in our own dogs should not be a problem. Good management and knowledge prevent trouble. Responsible and caring pit bull owners have done their homework and know what to expect from the breed. This breed's genetic traits involve dog aggression, to varying degrees. Even the most well socialized pit bull can one day decide that other dogs are not play buddies. It happens most often when the dog reaches maturity between two and three years of age, and it can happen without apparent reason.

Here are some good articles for basic breed information:

http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html 
http://www.realpitbull.com/fight.html

Because of the breed's background, it is unfair to expect dogs to behave the way we want them to when it comes to dog aggression and dog to dog relationships. We set our dogs up for failure when we decide to let them off leash in a public place and allow them to romp with other dogs. Dog parks are a place where people like to chit chat with each other, paying very little attention to what happens around their dogs. Posturing, body language, subtle looks and even vocalization are often misunderstood or overlooked by dog owners. Even when dogs let us know what is about to happen we might not see what is happening until it is too late. Most dog owners have no idea of what body language means, and don't know how to intervene if things go wrong. They panic, scream, yell, and hit the attacking dog; all of which often just makes things worse. A fight between two dogs can be hard enough to stop; now imagine a fight among 4 or 5 of them. In fights like these, pets and even people can be seriously injured.

Dog parks are also a place where unknown dogs are present. We don't know if they're fully vaccinated or in good health. They can be sick and our dogs can get ill as well.

We don't know if they are truly friendly dogs or if they may be aggressive. Everybody's dog is friendly, according to their owners. When the "friendly" dog decides to snap at ours, a fight starts.

Who is going to be blamed for that fight? Will it be the pit bull or the cute little fluffy dog? The answer is obvious.

Here is the story of one accident at a dog park, involving a pit bull.:

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogpark.cfm

Below is an article about a pit bull named Nettie that attacked a police horse, in San Francisco, in 2003. Nettie was let off leash at a public park by her irresponsible owner. The dog did nothing wrong, but she was set up for failure by the person who should have protected her. Nettie belonged to an SPCA volunteer and she was often taken to senior centers to comfort the elderly. Nettie was a good dog. This pretty pit bull female paid the price for her owner's ignorance and irresponsibility with her life. Many dogs have lost their lives the same way, due to the same kind of irresponsibility. It took her life for her owner to "get it." Like most situations of this sort, the events that ultimately resulted in Nettie's unfair death were totally preventable.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2003/11/23/horse23.DTL

Each time a pit bull is allowed to harm another pet all pit bull owners and their dogs suffer. One common defensive reaction of dog park lovers is "the dog is mine and it is nobody's business where I take it." This is not true. It is every pit bull owner's business as well. We are surrounded by BSL (Breed Specific Legislation) all over the Country. The news media report dog to dog attacks or dog to cat/cow/horse/sheep attacks almost every day, and with the same attention as if Osama Bin Laden had been captured. Reporters often compare human aggression to animal aggression. How many times do we hear "it was a dog but it could have been a child"?

It is ridiculous but it happens every day. "There goes another vicious pit bull attacking an innocent dog or cat!" What happens after a pit bull attacks another dog in the neighborhood or at the local dog park? It is like we suddenly own wild animals that have no right to exist. Our friendly neighbor suddenly stops talking to us and no longer lets her children come around our dog. The person we used to walk our dog with is no longer available because she fears for her pet. The two men down the street no longer come and pet our dog when we walk by their homes or rush into the house if they have their dogs with them. People ask for a ban. We did not change and our dog is the same as always but this is the result of one mistake, caused by someone who obviously did not care about the rest of us. It is a sad situation to be in.

This breed doesn't need any more accidents, we can't afford them. We are in this situation thank to those who failed their own dogs. When a whole breed suffers because of someone's action it is our business as well. No doubt on that.

Vet bills aren't cheap, emotions can be overwhelming, the guilt stays, so why to risk it? It isn't fair that only one breed is targeted when dogs of other breeds have killed or attacked other dogs. Today, a dog behaving like a dog has become a sin. Fair or not that is how the situation is and every pit bull owner needs to understand it.

The point of socialization is for a dog to have positive experiences with other dogs. When people take their dogs, perhaps puppies, to a park and something happens, they are responsible for the consequences. A young dog that is attacked for no reason won't be so willing to be friendly the next time it meets an unknown dog. An experience like that is a bad start and can often lead to problems in the future. There are no guarantees on what can happen at a dog park because dog parks are often full of different dogs with different personalities and tolerance levels. Even an easy going adult dog can change its approach after an attack. It is hard enough for a dog of this breed to tolerate other dogs and it is a big mistake to contribute to bad experiences. Dogs should always rely on us to defend them--the trust factor is important. We are responsible for protecting our dogs from harm. A dog that has no choice but to defend itself loses its trust in the owner and knows that in the future it needs to take care of itself. It then becomes fearful of other dogs and not so willing to behave like a well-balanced dog that was socialized in the appropriate way.

How can we socialize around other dogs then? Good question. Socialization is a must but it has to be done with common sense and in a controlled environment. Perhaps a friend has a mellow dog of the opposite sex and he/she is willing to let the dogs play together. Both owners should know that there is the possibility of a scrap and will intervene immediately and with the appropriate tools/techniques. Both owners will watch their dogs closely and never leave them unsupervised.

Every pit bull owner should have a breaking stick available, even when on a walk, hidden somewhere. It is a quick and effective way to break a hold.

What is a breaking stick and why it is an important tool to have: 
http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html

Some information on how to break up a fight: 
http://www.pbrc.net/breakfight.html

Obedience classes are an option too. In obedience classes, the dogs are leashed and can learn to control themselves in the presence of other dogs. It is not necessary for a pit bull to be dog friendly, but it is necessary for us to help them learn to control natural behaviors. Dogs that are exposed to this kind of environment can learn to behave with some time and work.

The local feedstore/petstore is another way to socialize our dogs, because they are another place where dogs are leashed. It's important to remember that it doesn't mean we don't need to pay attention to the surroundings. Respect the comfort level of your dog and move away from other dogs if necessary. Face to face interactions can quickly end badly, even when both dogs are leashed.

Those who are still convinced that a pit bull belongs to a dog park would benefit from reading these links. Their dogs and all of us will benefit as well.Please, don't set your dog up for failure.

http://www.pbrc.net/dogpark.html 
http://www.pitbullpress.com/ARTICLES/DOGPARK.html









(crossposted with permission)


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Thanks Marty


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Marty You Rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dan'sgrizz (Oct 22, 2008)

Marty : "Every pit bull owner should have a breaking stick available, even when on a walk, *hidden somewhere*. It is a quick and effective way to break a hold."

i think its funny, cuz its true. Somone asked me why i had a stake...so now i hide it.
A nice lady with a brindle shepherd of some sort from puppy class invited me to a dog park i laughed until it offended her she has a good dog so i invited her dog over for a romp in my back yard. Doggie play date. My yard so much sweeter than any dog park anyhow dozens of toys, sticks, and a hose! what more could you want. Im still working on a play/agility course. it should be sweet though.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

dan'sgrizz said:


> i think its funny, cuz its true. Somone asked me why i had a stake...so now i hide it.


Now that's funny right there. I would've told them I was hunting vampires.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Coletrain said:


> I stay away from dog parks because no matter how well my dogs behave that doesn't mean the other dogs will be. Lets face it, any dog when put in a bad situation will fight but like other people have said, these dogs may not start a fight but they will end it. No need to put my dog in a bad situation. Last thing I would to see is the headlines of the local papers stating " Pit Bull kills beloved family pet at local dog park" . This breed gets enough bad publicity and there is no need to fuel that fire. People see the headline and immediately it will be my dogs fault. It doesn't matter if Joe Schmoe brings his lab to the park and all this dog does is mount and bite at all the other dogs and is totally out of control until he comes to mine. While the other dogs might be submissive or put up with it, mine will be like " I don't f'n think so!" and will put a stop to it. Like any other dog you need to set them up for success and imho a dog park does just the opposite.
> 
> About 3 months ago my ex-wife and her boyfriend were at a dog park with their 120lb mastiff. His dog Isabella is a great dog and has been going to this park with her for 6 years. Well some moron brought his boxer to the dog park and the dog was running wild. The other people at the park would always talk to the guy about keeping an eye on his dog or try to get it under control but he went to the park to socialize and hit on women. He could care less about the dog. It was his way of letting the dog run wild outside for a couple hours and not having to watch him. I guess one day Isabella was grumpy or just had enough of the dog and now there is one less boxer out there. There was a small blurb in the local papers about it and thats about it. A whole whopping 3 printed lines. Now if it was one of my dogs it would be on the front page as well as the 5,6 and 10 o'clock news. Thanks but no thanks.
> 
> All it takes is that one new dog with no manners or an attitude problem to put you on the 10 o'clock news. I will continue to take them to the tennis courts where it is just them and they can run around there for additional exercise as well as take them to Petsmart and Petco for controlled interaction.


:goodpost:


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## PullDawgPits (Apr 15, 2008)

Excellent post Marty! That is exactly true.

Stephanie


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

*Marty's posting*

:cheers::goodpost::clap::thumbsup:up:Well put Marty!!!


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> i voted NO


I know I said that I wouldnt post in this thread again, but I have one more question.

Would you trust Bailey at the dog park? Just wondering.


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