# Spay Age - Been reading a lot of misinformation on here re: it :/



## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

I ran a search and roughly 90% of the responses to "what's the best age to spy" on here are incorrect. I have gotten the same answer from 2 different Vets. They both HIGHLY advise to spay BEFORE their first heat. Both Vets stated that in doing so, it GREATLY reduces the likelihood of any female reproductive cancer or disease!  Just wanted to post this for others.

Here is my question....given every dog is different, approximately when do females go into their first heat? My Luna is coming up on 6 months old next weekend. 

Thanks!:cheers:

Also, I know there are free clinics who spay and the $ price will vary on location but roughly ballpark figure how much is acceptable to pay? My normal vet who is amazing is way too high at $255 but he does a TON of services like blood work and pain meds etc..I found a place here that had great reviews for only $90! Everyone who got a spay from this Vet said they couldn't believe how small the precise the incision was. :love2: All of the reviews said their pups were up and back to normal in 24hours

With the spay, I plan on having her nails cut (while she's under) as well as micro-chipped and rabies shot!


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Early spay actually puts female dogs at an increased risk for bone cancers. There are pros and cons to both sides. Just because two vets gave different advice does not automatically make the info on the forum incorrect. I know several members with female dogs have done extensive research on the topic.

I found this article interesting. It takes both risks and benefits into account of both spaying and not spaying as well as added risk data associated with both depending on the age at alteration.

Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Carriana said:


> Early spay actually puts female dogs at an increased risk for bone cancers. There are pros and cons to both sides. Just because two vets gave different advice does not automatically make the info on the forum incorrect. I know several members with female dogs have done extensive research on the topic.
> 
> I found this article interesting. It takes both risks and benefits into account of both spaying and not spaying as well as added risk data associated with both depending on the age at alteration.
> 
> Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs | Dogs Naturally Magazine


Define "early"? To me, the pro's heavily out weight the con's. Of course there are going to be con's, like anything. About what age does this breed go into heat normally? Any symptoms I can look for/she will be displaying right before her first heat? Thanks! :cheers:


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## downlikedisco (Mar 19, 2013)

After 6 months she could technically go into heat at anytime. Symptoms would be swollen vulva and nipples. We recommend to spay before the first heat also. When they are done with their rounds of distemper parvo vaccines. Our spays average $240 because they include bloodwork and meds which are honestly a good idea.. you wouldn't believe how many surgeries we have to postpone due to bad bloodwork like elevated liver enzymes which could cause problems later down the road. The meds are antibiotic and anti inflammatory to make sure it heals well. Basically you get what you pay for. I wont even go into all the details of what goes on during "cheap" surgeries...

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

downlikedisco said:


> After 6 months she could technically go into heat at anytime. Symptoms would be swollen vulva and nipples. We recommend to spay before the first heat also. When they are done with their rounds of distemper parvo vaccines. Our spays average $240 because they include bloodwork and meds which are honestly a good idea.. you wouldn't believe how many surgeries we have to postpone due to bad bloodwork like elevated liver enzymes which could cause problems later down the road. The meds are antibiotic and anti inflammatory to make sure it heals well. Basically you get what you pay for. I wont even go into all the details of what goes on during "cheap" surgeries...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Good info thank you. That is exactly what my Vet told me


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Luna-Blue said:


> Define "early"? To me, the pro's heavily out weight the con's. Of course there are going to be con's, like anything. About what age does this breed go into heat normally? Any symptoms I can look for/she will be displaying right before her first heat? Thanks! :cheers:


Early meaning pediatric spay (prior to maturity). It's your dog, do with her what you will I was simply pointing out that there are valid arguments for and against waiting to spay. Because someone else's interpretation of information brought them to a different conclusion than advice you received doesn't make it incorrect.


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## BullyGal (Jun 25, 2012)

When you remove the risk for one type of cancer, you can open the door for other types of cancers.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Carriana said:


> Early meaning pediatric spay (prior to maturity). It's your dog, do with her what you will I was simply pointing out that there are valid arguments for and against waiting to spay. Because someone else's interpretation of information brought them to a different conclusion than advice you received doesn't make it incorrect.


Cheers :cheers:

All I'm saying is that I just noticed a lot of threads with statements like "I would never spay/neuter before 18-24 months" and "Spaying/neutering your dog early is a very bad thing" etc and I didn't want those looking for answers to stumble upon this misinformation. Misinformation and ignorance is to blame for a lot of real world issues today unfortunately. And guess what? While people are "waiting" to hit that false time to spay (after 1 or 2 or whatever amount of heats) the dog next dog creeps into the yard and BOOM, another addition to our over population of dogs....dog's that most likely will end up in a shelter and euthanized. The pro's and con's of spaying "Early" or before their first heat is a no-brainer. The pro's heavily outweigh the cons, and this seems to be the consensus of Veterinarians across the country.

I'm going to listen to those who went to school specifically for these types of things. Vets

Not that it's god send...but this is from WebMD:

"We spay or neuter dogs at our clinic at 8 weeks as long as they weigh at least two pounds. Of course, it varies by breed. Some of the tiny breeds have to be done later. But larger breeds are usually ready by two months of age.

Those ideas about needing to wait until after a dog is six months or a year old are really antiquated and the evidence is to the contrary. Even the American Veterinary Medical Association supports early spay/neuter.

The puppies recover a lot faster than adults. It's an easier surgery for them, and it reduces the rate of disease later on. It's just a much easier procedure on younger animals."

An estimated 5 million to 8 million animals are euthanized in shelters across this country every year. Many organizations are trying to decrease that number by opening low-cost spay/neuter clinics to prevent more litters of puppies needing homes. One such organization is LifeLine Animal Project, an Atlanta-based nonprofit shelter and clinic that has performed more than 25,000 spay/neuters since 2005. WebMD talked to executive director Rebecca Guinn to learn about the myths and facts surrounding spaying and neutering.

* Q: Shouldn't I let my dog have a litter before I spay her?*

A: No. Absolutely not. All the medical evidence suggests a dog should be spayed before her first heat. It's much easier for her then because it's a much easier surgery at that time.

* Q: Should I let my dog have a heat before I spay her*?

A: Medically, it's better to spay your dog before her first heat. It greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors. People who wait to spay their dogs until after their second heat greatly increase the risk of mammary tumors in their pets. Once they've had several heats, intact female dogs have a one out of four chance of developing mammary tumors.

Now I'm pretty sure that WebMD can't post false information on their site... and their lawyers would advise them of the same.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

BullyGal said:


> When you remove the risk for one type of cancer, you can open the door for other types of cancers.


I agree....Pro's versus Con's here though. It seems some of you on here are advocating waiting to spay/neuter, which is simply not right. My opinion.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Luna-Blue said:


> Cheers :cheers:
> 
> All I'm saying is that I just noticed a lot of threads with statements like "I would never spay/neuter before 18-24 months" and "Spaying/neutering your dog early is a very bad thing" etc and I didn't want those looking for answers to stumble upon this misinformation. Misinformation and ignorance is to blame for a lot of real world issues today unfortunately. And guess what? While people are "waiting" to hit that false time to spay (after 1 or 2 or whatever amount of heats) the dog next dog creeps into the yard and BOOM, another addition to our over population of dogs....dog's that most likely will end up in a shelter and euthanized. The pro's and con's of spaying "Early" or before their first heat is a no-brainer. The pro's heavily outweigh the cons, and this seems to be the consensus of Veterinarians across the country.
> 
> ...


No one is saying that there aren't risks. But the risks go both ways. Web md also excluded the various problems that can occur because of early spaying like bone cancers and growth plate issues. so they can still be listing fact without covering the entire breath of the question at hand. Like I said, pros and cons.

I believe that the vast majority of support in favor of early spaying/neutering operates under the assumption that the average pet owner is a complete idiot and not responsible enough to prevent accidental litters. Hence the push to spay before the first heat.

I'm not trying to talk you out of spaying your bitch.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Carriana said:


> No one is saying that there aren't risks. But the risks go both ways. Web md also excluded the various problems that can occur because of early spaying like bone cancers and growth plate issues. so they can still be listing fact without covering the entire breath of the question at hand. Like I said, pros and cons.
> 
> I believe that the vast majority of support in favor of early spaying/neutering operates under the assumption that the average pet owner is s complete idiot and not responsible enough to prevent accidental litters. Hence the push to spay before the first heat.


Totally agree with you. On both statements. Unfortunately, it is not an "assumption" though...the majority of people really are stupid :snow: fact.

For conversations sake, what is your stance personally on spaying/neutering age? With your pups, when did you spay and neuter and why?


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Carriana said:


> I'm not trying to talk you out of spaying your bitch.


Hey who you calling a bitch! :angeldevi oh wait a minute


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## Gonz2288 (Feb 16, 2013)

Carriana said:


> No one is saying that there aren't risks. But the risks go both ways. Web md also excluded the various problems that can occur because of early spaying like bone cancers and growth plate issues. so they can still be listing fact without covering the entire breath of the question at hand. Like I said, pros and cons.
> 
> I believe that the vast majority of support in favor of early spaying/neutering operates under the assumption that the average pet owner is a complete idiot and not responsible enough to prevent accidental litters. Hence the push to spay before the first heat.
> 
> I'm not trying to talk you out of spaying your bitch.


I think that is EXACTLY why vets push to spay/neuter early!


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Gonz2288 said:


> I think that is EXACTLY why vets push to spay/neuter early!


And that all the factual, medical information is not a determining factor in that push? oke:


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## Gonz2288 (Feb 16, 2013)

Luna-Blue said:


> And that all the factual, medical information is not a determining factor in that push? oke:


I've read the info on both sides. I feel there is no rush for me to neuter my dog. I will let him mature to his full extent with all of his natural hormones in tact and neuter when he's done.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Luna-Blue said:


> Totally agree with you. On both statements. Unfortunately, it is not an "assumption" though...the majority of people really are stupid :snow: fact.
> 
> For conversations sake, what is your stance personally on spaying/neutering age? With your pups, when did you spay and neuter and why?


My male is intact. No intention of breeding him, just my husband's preference (don't get me started on my husband's obsession with the dog's "chicken mcnibblets"). Our female sheltie mix was given to us by my in laws already spayed though she did have one heat before they finally got her fixed (they would be the irresponsible type of owners previously mentioned). I haven't owned an unaltered female dog so I haven't formed an opinion one way or another. If and when I do I will likely do a lot of research on the topic before making an informed decision. Though my next dog will likely be from a breeder so there is always the possibility that my next dog, if female, will be left intact for the purpose of show and competition.


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## Cain's Mom (Oct 25, 2012)

Luna-Blue said:


> Totally agree with you. On both statements. Unfortunately, it is not an "assumption" though...the majority of people really are stupid :snow: fact.
> 
> For conversations sake, what is your stance personally on spaying/neutering age? With your pups, when did you spay and neuter and why?


I know I'm not who you're talking too but ill chime in we wait to neuter after maturity between 1-2. Sheba was spayed before my husband got her and she was 1 when he got her so she was spayed early. Cain was a month past his first birth day and we neutered him. This new little guy we have now wont be neutered until he has matured. It's personal choice. Cain is living a perfectly happy and healthy life even though he was neutered at 1.

As regards to price, my vet does it off of weight. So if I would have taken Cain there it would have been 100 ish dollars because he was about 60 pounds. 
But look around because some places will off discounted or free spay/neuter for pitbulls. My humane society did and so I got Cain done free. I paid a very very small amount for some pain killers and then also got him microchipped while he was under.

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Gonz2288 said:


> I've read the info on both sides. I feel there is no rush for me to neuter my dog. I will let him mature to his full extent with all of his natural hormones in tact and neuter when he's done.


How will you know when he's "done"?


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## Gonz2288 (Feb 16, 2013)

Luna-Blue said:


> How will you know when he's "done"?


We will probably wait until he's 2.


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## BullyGal (Jun 25, 2012)

My girl is almost 2 and still intact. I've read article that supports waiting until mature to fix. I feel no rush to spay my dog for the sole purpose of reducing cancer. The average age for Mammary Cancer is 5-10, rarely seen in dogs under 2.

I fully support your decision to spay whenever you want. But to say other research is misinformation and ignorant because you don't agree with it is not right.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Carriana said:


> My male is intact. No intention of breeding him, just my husband's preference (don't get me started on my husband's obsession with the dog's "chicken mcnibblets"). Our female sheltie mix was given to us by my in laws already spayed though she did have one heat before they finally got her fixed (they would be the irresponsible type of owners previously mentioned). I haven't owned an unaltered female dog so I haven't formed an opinion one way or another. If and when I do I will likely do a lot of research on the topic before making an informed decision. Though my next dog will likely be from a breeder so there is always the possibility that my next dog, if female, will be left intact for the purpose of show and competition.


 No offense whatsoever...but do you not think that keeping your male intact bc of his chicken mcnibblets (lol) is somewhat...well, ignorant?  Given you are not going to show him or breed him of course.



Cain's Mom said:


> I know I'm not who you're talking too but ill chime in we wait to neuter after maturity between 1-2. Sheba was spayed before my husband got her and she was 1 when he got her so she was spayed early. Cain was a month past his first birth day and we neutered him. This new little guy we have now wont be neutered until he has matured. It's personal choice. Cain is living a perfectly happy and healthy life even though he was neutered at 1.
> 
> As regards to price, my vet does it off of weight. So if I would have taken Cain there it would have been 100 ish dollars because he was about 60 pounds.
> But look around because some places will off discounted or free spay/neuter for pitbulls. My humane society did and so I got Cain done free. I paid a very very small amount for some pain killers and then also got him microchipped while he was under.
> ...


:cheers: I'm def shopping around and yep I plan to microchip while she's under as well!!


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

BullyGal said:


> My girl is almost 2 and still intact. I've read article that supports waiting until mature to fix. I feel no rush to spay my dog for the sole purpose of reducing cancer. The average age for Mammary Cancer is 5-10, rarely seen in dogs under 2.
> 
> I fully support your decision to spay whenever you want. But to say other research is misinformation and ignorant because you don't agree with it is not right.


All I am saying is IF an individual plans to spay/neuter...supporting medical evidence shows that doing so prior to their first heat is "ideal" (NOT that future issues with bones etc can arise...it's just that the pro's outweigh the con's to spaying pre-heat)

Why people would wait is kind of "not smart"...with all the stories you read about with accidental impregnation etc

So again, while people are "waiting" to hit that magical age that doesn't exist, illegitimate puppy's are being born and euthanized. To me, that's pretty sick and ignorant


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Luna-Blue said:


> No offense whatsoever...but do you not think that keeping your male intact bc of his chicken mcnibblets (lol) is somewhat...well, ignorant?  Given you are not going to show him or breed him of course.
> 
> :cheers: I'm def shopping around and yep I plan to microchip while she's under as well!!


How is it ignorant? We're responsible owners, he's never left outside, he is always contained within our yard. Spaying and neutering is entirely a personal preference. My husband preferred to keep him intact, I initially argued the subject but honestly, our dog is now almost six years old with no behavioral issues relating to his intact status. I'm not really sure how that makes us ignorant.


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## mitty18 (Apr 6, 2013)

I had every intention of spaying my seven week old pup at ten weeks. Thanks to this post and the articles listed I'm waiting until she is two since there is no chance of her getting bred as my male dachshund is neutered and they're not left outside unattended.

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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I wont spay or neuter based on a chance of cancer. I know so many dogs who have passed away from cancer in the last few years and none where reproductive organ related cancers. I think if you want to spay / neuter then that is on you and what reasons you use to justify it is a personal one. To each their own. I will say I have read enough studies to show there are benefits to waiting to fix your dog. females I would not spay under 6 months , if possible I would do shortly after that but before they come in heat for males I would wait till over a year and after they have matured. I had a study posted on here somewhere that went into detail about the benefits of spaying early and benefits of doing later, there were good points on both half. I would not call people on here uneducated or tell them they are wrong because of the couple of vets you talked to where you formed your opinion on this matter. There are many studies and vets will differ so who is to say the vets you talked to are the end all be all in this field vs other vets and the studies they have worked on and studied??? I think each person when making a choice for their dogs should do there own research and form what opinion feels right to them. To me there is no right or wrong answer here just depends on what your reasoning is behind it and what sources you had to back those up.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Carriana said:


> How is it ignorant? We're responsible owners, he's never left outside, he is always contained within our yard. Spaying and neutering is entirely a personal preference. My husband preferred to keep him intact, I initially argued the subject but honestly, our dog is now almost six years old with no behavioral issues relating to his intact status. I'm not really sure how that makes us ignorant.


First, I did, and do not mean to offend you. But just to play devil's advocate here, do you know how many people have said the same thing you just did "He's contained/we're responsible"etc and somehow, magically he impregnates a female? I'm just sayin', shit happens, dogs get out yadda yadda. I personally would rather eliminate that "shit"


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Carrianna is not the typical idiot on the streets who own bully breed dogs. It's not ignorant to keep a dog in tact if you are a responsible owner. 
I believe the vets push early spay and neuter because of all the truly ignorant people that end up letting their dogs breed, and adding to the over population in the shelters. 
I use a holistic vet and he would disagree with your vet and he would say to wait till full maturity to spay or neuter. Not every vet says "spay and neuter before the first heat!" S I am just throwing that out there. 

I think it's great you are getting your girl spayed, so I don't want this to come across like I am against you fixing your dog


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

angelbaby said:


> I wont spay or neuter based on a chance of cancer. I know so many dogs who have passed away from cancer in the last few years and none where reproductive organ related cancers. I think if you want to spay / neuter then that is on you and what reasons you use to justify it is a personal one. To each their own. I will say I have read enough studies to show there are benefits to waiting to fix your dog. *females I would not spay under 6 months , if possible I would do shortly after that but before they come in heat* for males I would wait till over a year and after they have matured. I had a study posted on here somewhere that went into detail about the benefits of spaying early and benefits of doing later, there were good points on both half. I would not call people on here uneducated or tell them they are wrong because of the couple of vets you talked to where you formed your opinion on this matter. There are many studies and vets will differ so who is to say the vets you talked to are the end all be all in this field vs other vets and the studies they have worked on and studied??? I think each person when making a choice for their dogs should do there own research and form what opinion feels right to them. To me there is no right or wrong answer here just depends on what your reasoning is behind it and what sources you had to back those up.


That is all I'm saying. And that is what I'm doing :cheers:



::::COACH:::: said:


> Carrianna is not the typical idiot on the streets who own bully breed dogs. It's not ignorant to keep a dog in tact if you are a responsible owner.
> I believe the vets push early spay and neuter because of all the truly ignorant people that end up letting their dogs breed, and adding to the over population in the shelters.
> I use a holistic vet and he would disagree with your vet and he would say to wait till full maturity to spay or neuter. Not every vet says "spay and neuter before the first heat!" S I am just throwing that out there.
> 
> I think it's great you are getting your girl spayed, so I don't want this to come across like I am against you fixing your dog


Typical idiot or not makes zero difference. Even the most "responsible" owners dogs get out.

Again my opinion, fix your dog if you're not intending to show or breed. Making excuses for "why" you don't want to or that "it's my personal choice" is simply ignorant to me. It's bigger than us, the problem is, people refuse to understand this :cheers:


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

There is a difference between saying u are a responsible owner and actually being one. and in this case, Carrie is one. My boy is fixed cuz I adopted him, and he couldn't leave the shelter till he was fixed. My female is not and will not be bred. But I can say that because, like Carrie, my actions thus far prove me to be a responsible owner, capable of keeping my dogs safe, and healthy...

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> There is a difference between saying u are a responsible owner and actually being one. and in this case, Carrie is one. My boy is fixed cuz I adopted him, and he couldn't leave the shelter till he was fixed. My female is not and will not be bred. But I can say that because, like Carrie, my actions thus far prove me to be a responsible owner, capable of keeping my dogs safe, and healthy...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm sure you and Carrie are great owners...but do you think that accidents give a f*&k about how responsible someone is?


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

I'm not offended, (though maybe I should be considering ignorant means lacking knowledge, awareness and/or being uneducated or unsophisticated). I'm not going to try and convince you of the reasons my dog is intact, he is and that's that, my decision and not yours. You want to believe that I will be another statistic go ahead but I'm not going to change my stance based on the slight possibility that an accident might happen. I personally wanted to neuter him, my husband didn't. We compromised with an understanding that we well be responsible and manage our dog in such a way that accidents are unlikely to happen.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Carriana said:


> I'm not offended, (though maybe I should be considering ignorant means lacking knowledge, awareness and/or being uneducated or unsophisticated). I'm not going to try and convince you of the reasons my dog is intact, he is and that's that, my decision and not yours. You want to believe that I will be another statistic go ahead but I'm not going to change my stance based on the slight possibility that an accident might happen. I personally wanted to neuter him, my husband didn't. We compromised with an understanding that we well be responsible and manage our dog in such a way that accidents are unlikely to happen.


:cheers:

Ps. If you REALLY wanted him neutered you women know exactly how to manipulate and persuade us men lol oke: we aren't hard to figure out :angeldevi


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Luna-Blue said:


> I'm sure you and Carrie are great owners...but do you think that accidents give a f*&k about how responsible someone is?


Explain to me how an accident can find my female if she's only outside when im with her or in the house when im home, or in the crate when im at work. My on/off BF was the source of many accidents in the past, but that problem has been aleviated.

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> Explain to me how an accident can find my female if she's only outside when im with her or in the house when im home, or in the crate when im at work. My on/off BF was the source of many accidents in the past, but that problem has been aleviated.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Your next boyfriend oke:


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## BullyGal (Jun 25, 2012)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> Explain to me how an accident can find my female if she's only outside when im with her or in the house when im home, or in the crate when im at work. My on/off BF was the source of many accidents in the past, but that problem has been aleviated.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You know a male dog is gonna break into your house and rape Banshee.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Luna-Blue said:


> :cheers:
> 
> Ps. If you REALLY wanted him neutered you women know exactly how to manipulate and persuade us men lol oke: we aren't hard to figure out :angeldevi


It was a choose your battles type situation. We agreed that if we had behavioral issues stemming from his being intact we would reconsider neutering. Since Loki is now middle aged with no issues I have no issue with him being intact and wouldn't put him through the procedure this late without good reason. The slight possibility that an accident could happen isn't a good enough reason.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Luna-Blue said:


> Your next boyfriend oke:


Hopefully i can learn from the last one, and pick a better next one! LOL....



BullyGal said:


> You know a male dog is gonna break into your house and rape Banshee.


Aww hell no! Lol... poor lil Banshee... I will protect u!

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

BullyGal said:


> You know a male dog is gonna break into your house and rape Banshee.


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## downlikedisco (Mar 19, 2013)

I wonder how many people on here know how high the percentage of intact females coming up sick with pyometra is...? Very. And its sad and expensive when it turns into an emergency spay. Just sayin... theres more reasons than eliminating cancer to get a dog spayed.

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## Princesspaola21 (Oct 30, 2012)

BullyGal said:


> You know a male dog is gonna break into your house and rape Banshee.


Lmfao!!!

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## Princesspaola21 (Oct 30, 2012)

I have 13 dogs and out of those only 4 of them are spayed or neutered. I'm keeping my Bullies intact so I can show, My Aussie intact so I can show, and my Chihuahua intact so I can breed him at some point I have 6 friends and family members that want a quality Chi but can't afford the prices that I paid for mine.

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

downlikedisco said:


> I wonder how many people on here know how high the percentage of intact females coming up sick with pyometra is...? Very. And its sad and expensive when it turns into an emergency spay. Just sayin... theres more reasons than eliminating cancer to get a dog spayed.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yup  Thank you :doggy:


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Luna-Blue said:


> No offense whatsoever...but do you not think that keeping your male intact bc of his chicken mcnibblets (lol) is somewhat...well, ignorant?  Given you are not going to show him or breed him of course.


Why would it be ignorant to not alter a dog just because you are not breeding? Altering is for those who don't want to bother keeping their dogs from breeding. I don't alter my dogs. I see no need to put them through a surgery like that when I can just not let them breed.



Luna-Blue said:


> That is all I'm saying. And that is what I'm doing :cheers:
> 
> Typical idiot or not makes zero difference. Even the most "responsible" owners dogs get out.
> 
> Again my opinion, fix your dog if you're not intending to show or breed. Making excuses for "why" you don't want to or that "it's my personal choice" is simply ignorant to me. It's bigger than us, the problem is, people refuse to understand this :cheers:


To me it is more ignorant to think that because people don't do what you would want done with their animals they are ignorant...

When it come down to it there are just as many medical reason not to alter as there are to alter. BOTH have cancers, BOTH have problems.

All of us here support altering. As most have said the average person can't keep their dog from breeding. However it is not a requirement and not something that makes you ignorant if you choose not to.

Choosing not to and then having your dog reproduce is ignorant, choosing not to and your dog still doesn't reproduce... Well that doesn't actually do anything since altered or not your dog is still not reproducing.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

American_Pit13 said:


> I don't alter my dogs. I see no need to put them through a surgery like that when I can just not let them breed.


You "not letting them breed" doesn't eradicate the chance that an accident can happen.

What happens if one or more of your dogs gets loose? How are you going to guarantee that he or she isn't going to bang the shi* out of every local dog before you find him or her?

I wish people would just stop thinking they can control everything in the world. Put it this way, there's only one 100% preventative way that anyone's dogs will not accidentally get pregnant or impregnate. It's called fixing them.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

American_Pit13 said:


> To me it is more ignorant to think that *because people don't do what you would want done* with their animals they are ignorant.


Me? I never told anyone to fix if they are showing or breeding. I simply said if you are not, BE RESPONSIBLE and fix your dog. Acting like the possibility that your dog will never get out or (insert scenario here) become impregnated/impregnate is the definition of ignorance. PERIOD. Again, trying to control something that you have no control over.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Luna-Blue said:


> You "not letting them breed" doesn't eradicate the chance that an accident can happen.
> 
> What happens if one or more of your dogs gets loose? How are you going to guarantee that he or she isn't going to bang the shi* out of every local dog before you find him or her?
> 
> I wish people would just stop thinking they can control everything in the world. Put it this way, there's only one 100% preventative way that anyone's dogs will not accidentally get pregnant or impregnate. It's called fixing them.


Just curious, are u on the phone app? Is this why u say some of the things u say to members that are staff/mods or been here a long time. Im just sayin... Holly is basically second in line on this forum behind Redog. Not that u can't continue this debate... but I have been to her yard and the 9 (?) dogs there are not gunna be gettin loose anytime soon. Just sayin....

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> Just curious, are u on the phone app? Is this why u say some of the things u say to members that are staff/mods or been here a long time. Im just sayin... Holly is basically second in line on this forum behind Redog. Not that u can't continue this debate... but I have been to her yard and the 9 (?) dogs there are not gunna be gettin loose anytime soon. Just sayin....
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not on a phone app. And what things do I say? I'm not sure what your getting at with your comment about who is a mod or not I could care less. I'm attempting to have an educated conversation. I'm sure a lot of you on this forum are great, educated dog owners. But again, to me, your statement right here "but I have been to her yard and the 9 (?) dogs there are not gunna be gettin loose anytime soon. Just sayin...." is straight up ignorance.


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## Princesspaola21 (Oct 30, 2012)

I pretty much liked you right up until you started calling everybody ignorant. It's ignorant to judge people you know nothing about just because they don't believe the same as you do. That's ignorant.

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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Go back and read the rules to this forum sir. I am far from ignorant and I don't have to prove myself to the likes of u.

Yes, for the average pet owner, accidents happen and spay/neuter is the best answer for that. But when u think u can come up in hear and start calling good, well educated and responsible dog owners ignorant and that 90% of what is here is "misinformation" then maybe its time that u find another forum.

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Princesspaola21 said:


> I pretty much liked you right up until you started calling everybody ignorant. It's ignorant to judge people you know nothing about just because they don't believe the same as you do. That's ignorant.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You're right...I walked in here and called everybody ignorant. If you write something, and someone else states "hey I think that's an ignorant statement and HERE"S WHY" then the two can talk about it correct? And "don't believe the same as I do"? Last time I checked, a dog getting out and impregnating/getting impregnated was not a "belief"

And I still like you


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Let's look at this logically. The vast majority of pets ending up shelters are not from these responsible owners who have these accidents you keep insisting are going to happen - some perhaps - but most are from the "just want one litter" or irresponsible owners who don't alter their dogs and don't responsibly contain them. Sure - accidents can happen, but if a _*responsible *_dog owner chooses not to alter their dog despite the very small chance that their dog can get out and mate with another dog that is their decision. First you state that you are just playing devil's advocate but now you're accusing every owner on this site who responsibly manages their intact animals and takes measures to prevent breeding ignorant? I'm sorry but that's just rude.

No one here should have to justify their dog's intact status to you or anyone else. We should just agree to disagree and move on with our day because honestly at this point I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. What other people do with the dogs on their yard is not your business. When and if these accidents happen feel free to issue a well deserved "I told you so" but at the end of the day, we all make our own decisions and whether or not you think they are justified isn't going to change what we do or don't do to responsibly manage our dogs.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Listen, I'm gonna let this go and not post anymore. It's obvious there's quite a few people on here who are very narrow minded and not open to anything anyone else has to say. I never attacked anyone, I never told anyone what to do, I merely stated facts and gave my opinion. Forums are for people to talk and learn. I'm always up for learning...unfortunately not everyone shares my outlook.

Take care! A lot of stuff on this forum is great! Honestly! And you're all good people, I never said otherwise.


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## BullyGal (Jun 25, 2012)

You hear that everyone. Because we support his decision to spay whenever he wants for whatever reason, but we don't believe in doing it ourselves makes us small minded and not open to anything else.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Luna-Blue said:


> Listen, I'm gonna let this go and not post anymore. It's obvious there's quite a few people on here who are very narrow minded and not open to anything anyone else has to say. I never attacked anyone, I never told anyone what to do, I merely stated facts and gave my opinion. Forums are for people to talk and learn. I'm always up for learning...unfortunately not everyone shares my outlook.
> 
> Take care! A lot of stuff on this forum is great! Honestly! And you're all good people, I never said otherwise.


You didn't attack, but you did call people ignorant for not sharing your opinion on altering their pets. I take offense as I am neither uneducated nor am I blind to the pet overpopulation problem.

I might get in a car accident tomorrow, but should I sell my car and never drive again on the off chance that despite my efforts to drive responsibly it could still happen? Of course not.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Carriana said:


> You didn't attack, but you did call people ignorant for not sharing your opinion on altering their pets. I take offense as I am neither uneducated nor am I blind to the pet overpopulation problem.
> 
> I might get in a car accident tomorrow, but should I sell my car and never driver again on the off chance that despite my efforts to drive responsibly it could still happen? Of course not.


:goodpost: this!

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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Luna-Blue said:


> Listen, I'm gonna let this go and not post anymore. It's obvious there's quite a few people on here who are very narrow minded and not open to anything anyone else has to say. I never attacked anyone, I never told anyone what to do, I merely stated facts and gave my opinion. Forums are for people to talk and learn. I'm always up for learning...unfortunately not everyone shares my outlook.
> 
> Take care! A lot of stuff on this forum is great! Honestly! And you're all good people, I never said otherwise.


Yeah you don't get it. My dog was never left in a situation where he would get another dog pregnant. Because people do not agree with your OPINION when there are facts that prove and disprove both theories is crazy. You're entitled to your opinion of course. But calling people ignorant for having theirs isn't cool. Just saying.

I waited Til my boy was 2 to neuter him and had a few reason. Getting a dog pregnant was not even a consideration. Saying someone else isn't being responsible when you have no clue is absurd. My dog will never accidentally get off his leash. I would never allow my dog to be put in that situation. Now if I have a fire or get into a car accident and my dog escapes and is separated you are right. He might have gotten a bitch pregnant. But living my life with that type of paranoia is borderline psychotic I think. People can pretend they are responsible. Or can actually be responsible. You shouldn't not post anymore.

What's the point starting trouble and walking away! I believe in spay and neuter and the "fix by four" campaign is because dogs and cats can get pregnant without going into heat, and have that young. I preach being smart and responsible of all aspects (breeding leash proper training and obedience who helps you care for your pet etc.) not the mantra to spay or neuter early. And I don't think people who do are ignorant for doing it early. It's their choice. My state just passed a law all animals adopted must be spay and neutered BEFORE leaving their facilities. I would rather fix a pup than have it live in a shelter taking up space if someone wants them! Just my 2 cents .

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Carriana said:


> You didn't attack, but you did call people ignorant for not sharing your opinion on altering their pets. I take offense as I am neither uneducated nor am I blind to the pet overpopulation problem.
> 
> I might get in a car accident tomorrow, but should I sell my car and never driver again on the off chance that despite my efforts to drive responsibly it could still happen? Of course not.


I called those who think that simply "being a responsible dog owner" eradicates accidental births ignorant.

And comparing a car accident is not a good analogy. No one ever told you to "get rid of your dog" did they?


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

ames said:


> Y]My dog will never accidentally get off his leash


Not even going to respond to this comment. Bc you already know what I'm going to say. Or maybe you don't, which is likely the problem here oke:



ames said:


> Y]Now if I have a fire or get into a car accident and my dog escapes and is separated you are right. He might have gotten a bitch pregnant.


And to think, in a scenario like this (which is not that unlikely) you could have prevented it by simply going against your "I don't wanna fix em" perspective.

Arguing here is getting more and more pointless


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Luna-Blue said:


> I called those who think that simply "being a responsible dog owner" eradicates accidental births ignorant.
> 
> And comparing a car accident is not a good analogy. No one ever told you to "get rid of your dog" did they?


No, just parts of him. I'm not going to alter my dog on the off chance that he might impregnate another dog when I take measures to ensure that will not happen. It doesn't eliminate the possibility entirely but that is my burden to bear, not yours.


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## Gonz2288 (Feb 16, 2013)

> And to think, in a scenario like this (which is not that unlikely) you could have prevented it by simply going against your "I don't wanna fix em" perspective.
> 
> Arguing here is getting more and more pointless


why do you think you have the right to tell someone what risks to take with their pet? everyone here supports YOU fixing YOUR dog whenever you see fit.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I don't see what's so hard to understand here. U want to fix ur dog, we are telling u its ok but just sayin how some of us have unaltered dogs. And then u say we are ignorant because we don't agree with u. In what world does that make sense? My boy was fixed from the shelter, my girl is 11 months and is currently a show dog... 5 ribbons .... and will be a sport dog once I decide what sport. I am not against spay/neuter by any means and if someone proves themselves to be a responsible owner then that is fine as well. But 'playing the devil's advocate' here is one thing, calling us narrow minded and ignorant is something else altogether...

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Carriana said:


> No, just parts of him. I'm not going to alter my dog on the off chance that he might impregnate another dog when I take measures to ensure that will not happen. It doesn't eliminate the possibility entirely but that is my burden to bear, not yours.


It's not your burden, it's the puppies burden. The burden of their quality of the life that you allowed your dog to create. All bc your husband wants his mcnuggets or whatever...



Gonz2288 said:


> why do you think you have the right to tell someone what risks to take with their pet? everyone here supports YOU fixing YOUR dog whenever you see fit.


In our current society, in our world, after ALL the horrible things you see regarding overpopulation and inhumane situations for the abundance of dogs...y'all would rather NOT eradicate your possible contribution to it, for un-valid reasons. That's what erks me.

So please, enlighten me. What are the reasons to not fix your dog if you don't plan to procreate or show?


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## Gonz2288 (Feb 16, 2013)

> So please, enlighten me. What are the reasons to not fix your dog if you don't plan to procreate or show?


I have previously stated that I am waiting until my pup is 2 years old. I am waiting because I want my dog to mature fully with all the testosterone that nature intended. My dog does not go to dog parks. He is never unsupervised.

As others have stated, eradicating the chances for cancers of the sex organs opens the doors for other cancers. Another thing no one has mentioned is the possibility for complications during/after surgery.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Gonz2288 said:


> I have previously stated that I am waiting until my pup is 2 years old. I am waiting because I want my dog to mature fully with all the testosterone that nature intended. My dog does not go to dog parks. He is never unsupervised.
> 
> As others have stated, eradicating the chances for cancers of the sex organs opens the doors for other cancers. Another thing no one has mentioned is the possibility for complications during/after surgery.


Ok then I'm not referring to you lol  Good point on surgery though.

I meant to those who plan on never fixing (and aren't showing or planning to have litters)


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Luna-Blue said:


> It's not your burden, it's the puppies burden. The burden of their quality of the life that you allowed your dog to create. All bc your husband wants his mcnuggets or whatever...


Except these imaginary puppies do not exist.


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## Chloesmygirl (Jan 31, 2011)

Luna-Blue said:


> You "not letting them breed" doesn't eradicate the chance that an accident can happen.
> 
> *What happens if one or more of your dogs gets loose?* How are you going to guarantee that he or she isn't going to bang the shi* out of every local dog before you find him or her?
> 
> I wish people would just stop thinking they can control everything in the world. Put it this way, there's only one 100% preventative way that anyone's dogs will not accidentally get pregnant or impregnate. It's called fixing them.


Of course nothing is 100%. But there are many responsible dog owners on here that already have to make sure their dog does not come into contact with another dog for OTHER reasons. So they are already used to taking many, many precautions. If one or more dogs of mine were to get loose, I'd be worried about worse things happening, bloody carnage!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Luna-Blue said:


> Not on a phone app. And what things do I say? I'm not sure what your getting at with your comment about who is a mod or not I could care less. I'm attempting to have an educated conversation. I'm sure a lot of you on this forum are great, educated dog owners. But again, to me, your statement right here "but I have been to her yard and the 9 (?) dogs there are not gunna be gettin loose anytime soon. Just sayin...." is straight up ignorance.


You talk to members who have been on this forum 3-6 years and who have owned these dogs for 10-30 years as if we are newbies who don't know what we are talking about.

You are the only one is this thread that is "straight up ignorant." You have acted "straight up ignorantly" since you joined this forum. I avoided this thread to begin with since your opening line was:


Luna-Blue said:


> I ran a search and roughly 90% of the responses to "what's the best age to spy" on here are incorrect.





Luna-Blue said:


> You "not letting them breed" doesn't eradicate the chance that an accident can happen.
> 
> What happens if one or more of your dogs gets loose? How are you going to guarantee that he or she isn't going to bang the shi* out of every local dog before you find him or her?


Do you understand how dogs breed? My dog could not get loose and just go bang everything in sight. Dogs lock up for 30min to an hour. So first my dogs would need to be gone for at least long enough to find a dog and then be gone during the lock too. In 13+ years of these dogs that has never happened to me, so no I don't feel my dog is going to get off it's chain, out the fence and go lock with another dog.

If my dog did get off it's chain the first thing it will do is head for the next dogs chain and cause a dog fight (which is why they are properly secured), not run off in search of a piece of ass. Also dogs that take off from their homes are usually lacking in exercise and training.

My male dogs are around bitches in heat every time my girls go into season and don't even take off to try and get to the girls on my own yard. I have 11 dogs. 2 male and 9 females. No accidents.



Carriana said:


> Except these imaginary puppies do not exist.





Chloesmygirl said:


> *But there are many responsible dog owners on here that already have to make sure their dog does not come into contact with another dog for OTHER reasons. So they are already used to taking many, many precautions. If one or more dogs of mine were to get loose, I'd be worried about worse things happening, bloody carnage!*


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Luna-Blue said:


> Ok then I'm not referring to you lol  Good point on surgery though.
> 
> I meant to those who plan on never fixing (and aren't showing or planning to have litters)


Because research show spaying and neutering can cause increase in cancer. So why would anyone want to increase cancer? Research shows both so it's up to owners if they want or not to put their dogs through a surgery were anesthesia is used If they don't have too.

My boy was $500+ to neuter, maybe thy don't have that. Some people would rather be responsible than take the risk a dog would die while under a surgery Preventing something that's EASILY preventable.

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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Luna-Blue said:


> I wish people would just stop thinking they can control everything in the world. Put it this way, there's only one 100% preventative way that anyone's dogs will not accidentally get pregnant or impregnate. It's called fixing them.


i wish people would just stop thinking that spay/nueter is the cure all..
1 apbt getting together with another dog is more likely to be tragic than an accidental pregancy. you need to get your priorities straight


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

redog said:


> i wish people would just stop thinking that spay/nueter is the cure all..
> 1 apbt getting together with another dog is more likely to be tragic than an accidental pregancy. you need to get your priorities straight


:goodpost:

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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Luna-Blue said:


> So please, enlighten me. What are the reasons to not fix your dog if you don't plan to procreate or show?


still waiting...

Edit: redog where in IL are you from?


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Luna-Blue said:


> still waiting...
> 
> Edit: redog where in IL are you from?


North east


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Wow really. This thread is kinda crazy. I'm not sure where the OP lives or how your yard is set up but why is it that you assume every dog can escape and that no one watches their pets? We had an American Bulldog who was never altered and he never once "escaped" the yard looking for a piece of ass. It's really not a hard thing to do to properly contain your dog. Many of us have had bulldogs for years with no yard escapes or accidental litters. And I'm sorry but just throwing a dog outside and not paying attention to it is not being a responsible owner, when we say responsible owners here we're talking about people who know the breed in and out, know how to set up chain spots, kennels and proper dog runs, and know how to maintain intact dogs. This forum is not full of piss poor newbie dog owner, there's all kinds of owners here. We have pet owners, working/show owners, kennel owners, dog trainers, and quite a few vet and vet techs, so to assume were all under educated on dogs and problems that can arise is pretty far off. On the cancer thing, the last two dogs we had were both male, one altered one intact. The dog who was neutered at an early age ended up being the one who got inoperable cancer and had to be put down, the male left intact never had cancer at all, as was the case with our females. My BF had a female Am Bulldog who he got spayed at around 2 years old, maybe a little older. My parents had a female dog at that same time who was spayed around 6 months. Low an behold the female who was spayed early ended up riddled with tumors and had many operations before she passed. The AmBulldog, who had one litter and was spayed around 2 years old never developed tumors at all.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Eh i'll make this as simple and short as possible as time is limited.. 

The information of "spaying before a first heat" is wrong and i don't give a shit what vet told you that, vets are a business. Period. Spaying and Neutering is an agenda that vets benefit from, while not particularly directly more so as indirectly as typically they don't profit from the spay or neuter much itself, rather the follow ups, drugs, etc. They suck you in for the long haul.

Not to mention, the agenda is BS to begin with.. Learn how to control your animal and keep your animal safe from "accidental" breeding and you can bi pass the genetics behind spaying or neutering.

Now if you are inexperienced and or just feel you want to spay a bitch to reduce the cycle stress for whatever reason, sure go for it. Do it early or very early (lets say, 5 months) and your just shooting yourself in the foot... Rather, your dog.

I don't have time to go find all these articles or books for you to read on the subject, plenty out there. Hell there may be plenty on this thread, didn't bother reading much of the responses.

A better subject is reducing the amount of  being bred that will reduce genetic cancers, failures, etc in the pools, increase the amount of people who have use for animal that only keep animals cut the bullshit out.. Whole 'nother topic most know what i'm on about, do a search or search for the information yourself as if you can't be bothered to do your own research i cannot be bothered with discussions as you wont learn a damn thing by just reading what i say.. All dismissed as opinion until you prove to yourself as fact.

Bottom line is, S/N can cause cancer, growth reduction, mental and physical non-peak to maturity, etc etc.. Shit all been said before ten fold with a silver spoon.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Luna blue what are you still waiting for? People have answered as to why not to do it. I explained there are many reasons not to, besides showing a dog. Fixing early causing cancer and growth issues. Why would I want to increase cancer by sputering early? There is reasons on both sides to early vs late and why some choose to do an unnecessary spay and neuter and why some don't. It's only necessary if your not going to be responsible with your dog, or other medical reason. For needing it done. Just doing for pregnancy is ridiculous and lazy IMO when it's easy to prevent that. Apparently you only have met irresponsible owners if you think it's not possible? I'm kinda lost on what you're not getting. Research shows both can be good and both can be bad. Make your own decision while not judging someone else's

As far as hog hunting I have never heard of a dog that hunts being spayed or neutered. Anyone?

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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Luna-Blue said:


> So please, enlighten me. What are the reasons to not fix your dog if you don't plan to procreate or show?


Maybe you should stop being so narrow minded and read the thread? No one is going to repeat the same thing over and over when you don't care to listen to their reasons and call them "excuses" instead to try to make your self seem right.


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

Jus for the sake of fairness. I have to ask,what makes you rite and all these folks wrong? And I'm not saying you are or are not.But you are n the minority,and you've only got a few post and you just joined. There's folks on here that have 3000 post and been on here for several years. Now none of this makes any of them or you an expert, so a new op gets on here to ask or learn and hits this convo. Who do you think newb is going to? Again my first question stands. It's like the saying "guns dont kill people people kill people" it still comes down to responsibility' be it dog or gun. But,on the other hand you did imply that these fine folks are ignorant and that alone makes you wrong.No matter what else you say after that! Heck yea; anything can happen at any time but you can say that about everything in life. So where do you draw the line? And why do you keep going with this because as KM said it's a horse thats been beaten for a while............................ how bout that bully gal? caps and all huh? only took me 2 hrs.lol


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## Princesspaola21 (Oct 30, 2012)

welder said:


> Jus for the sake of fairness. I have to ask,what makes you rite and all these folks wrong? And I'm not saying you are or are not.But you are n the minority,and you've only got a few post and you just joined. There's folks on here that have 3000 post and been on here for several years. Now none of this makes any of them or you an expert, so a new op gets on here to ask or learn and hits this convo. Who do you think newb is going to? Again my first question stands. It's like the saying "guns dont kill people people kill people" it still comes down to responsibility' be it dog or gun. But,on the other hand you did imply that these fine folks are ignorant and that alone makes you wrong.No matter what else you say after that! Heck yea; anything can happen at any time but you can say that about everything in life. So where do you draw the line? And why do you keep going with this because as KM said it's a horse thats been beaten for a while............................ how bout that bully gal? caps and all huh? only took me 2 hrs.lol


I had no fun reading that whatsoever!!! I miss the country talk...way more entertaining!

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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

like a switch baby,like a switch. hahahahahaha.well i think if you are to be taken serious,one should b serious.wont you agree? but all jokes aside they's a time an a place fer everthang. but if i hada talk like at all the time i'd jus give it up. be jus flat boring.sides zat i dont no them big words like KM and firehazard do.not that they's any thing rong with'm mind you.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Luna Blue, have you actually read any of the studies on spaying and neutering? I'm not reading through 6 pages of all this back and fourth BS but there are no laws telling me that any of us have to fix our dogs. I waited until my bitch was 2 so that she could mature properly. I am glad that I waited because it will be more beneficial to her health long term. My next dog (male) will not be fixed as he will be a competition dog. However, if a health problem arises then I would have no issues doing what I have to do. However, nowadays anything and everything can cause cancer......OVER vaccinating (linked to cancer), flea and tick prevention (carcinogens in ingredients), poor diet, pesticides people use on grass (carcinogens linked to canine lymphoma), etc. Hell, your dog can die from the rabies vaccine as I've seen first hand! Waiting to spay until your dog is older and fully mature isn't going to kill her or shorten her life. I didn't spay my bitch for worries of mammary cancer or her getting pregnant... I did it because it was MY CHOICE to!
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

_*An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject. On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs to prevent future
health problems, especially immature male dogs. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in many (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.
The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary.
The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed, age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors for each individual dog. Across-the-board recommendations for all dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature*_.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Who let peta make an account?? Lol


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

rabbit said:


> Who let peta make an account?? Lol


LMAO! :rofl: You know, I almost said that but I didn't want to come across IGNORANT......get it?


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

So I dnt wanna read all 6 pages. Can sum1 hit me with the cliff notes? Lol


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> So I dnt wanna read all 6 pages. Can sum1 hit me with the cliff notes? Lol


aw hell naw.u gotta go back and read this cr,,,,i mean all the edjucational stuff like us.lol.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Ok I'll be the dick, im not altering my dogs bcuz im gonna breed them. Me vreeding them has absolutely nothing to do with anyone on this board. so why do u care so much what other ppl who purchased their dog does w them?


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Damn welder thats not the friendly thing to do lol


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## BullyGal (Jun 25, 2012)

welder said:


> Jus for the sake of fairness. I have to ask,what makes you rite and all these folks wrong? And I'm not saying you are or are not.But you are n the minority,and you've only got a few post and you just joined. There's folks on here that have 3000 post and been on here for several years. Now none of this makes any of them or you an expert, so a new op gets on here to ask or learn and hits this convo. Who do you think newb is going to? Again my first question stands. It's like the saying "guns dont kill people people kill people" it still comes down to responsibility' be it dog or gun. But,on the other hand you did imply that these fine folks are ignorant and that alone makes you wrong.No matter what else you say after that! Heck yea; anything can happen at any time but you can say that about everything in life. So where do you draw the line? And why do you keep going with this because as KM said it's a horse thats been beaten for a while............................ how bout that bully gal? caps and all huh? only took me 2 hrs.lol


lol yeah... that was pretty boring talk lol. I prefer to read your typing in accent and anyone who needs helps can ask me or another fellow southerner to translate lol.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Just Tap Pits said:


> So I dnt wanna read all 6 pages. Can sum1 hit me with the cliff notes? Lol


Man fix you settings. No way you should only have it on the default still!! lmao make it 50 posts a page so you don't have all that clicking lok

Sent from Petguide.com App


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Luna Blue, have you actually read any of the studies on spaying and neutering? I'm not reading through 6 pages of all this back and fourth BS but there are no laws telling me that any of us have to fix our dogs. I waited until my bitch was 2 so that she could mature properly. I am glad that I waited because it will be more beneficial to her health long term. My next dog (male) will not be fixed as he will be a competition dog. However, if a health problem arises then I would have no issues doing what I have to do. However, nowadays anything and everything can cause cancer......OVER vaccinating (linked to cancer), flea and tick prevention (carcinogens in ingredients), poor diet, pesticides people use on grass (carcinogens linked to canine lymphoma), etc. Hell, your dog can die from the rabies vaccine as I've seen first hand! Waiting to spay until your dog is older and fully mature isn't going to kill her or shorten her life. I didn't spay my bitch for worries of mammary cancer or her getting pregnant... I did it because it was MY CHOICE to!
> http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
> 
> _*An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject. On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs to prevent future
> ...


I came across that article too. It has probably the most objective info out of everything I've found so far. It's clear that a large amount of info out there is cherry picked from this research to push the sterilization agenda, and conveniently leaves out the reasons to wait, or not to sterilize at all.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

ames said:


> Man fix you settings. No way you should only have it on the default still!! lmao make it 50 posts a page so you don't have all that clicking lok
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Im getting on that now. Fing doing this ish with my phone makes it even more agonizing to read bs lol


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I have one thought in my pea-brain. If someone knows enough to ask questions, research the pros/cons of altering and when to do it, etc., they are the kind of person I would most trust to keep intact animals. Because they care enough to get that information in their hot little hands. And it is not misinformation by any means. Every day there is a new study or new statistics supporting somebody's viewpoints. Gun control advocates will cite a study about gun-related deaths, Purina will tell you about a study promoting the benefits of corn/grains in pet food, and 99% of statistics are made up on the spot.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> LMAO! :rofl: You know, I almost said that but I didn't want to come across IGNORANT......get it?


Hahaha yes! Lord forbid we be close minded of others choices and ignorant of all the facts!


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Luna-Blue said:


> It's not your burden, it's the puppies burden. The burden of their quality of the life that you allowed your dog to create. All bc your husband wants his mcnuggets or whatever...
> 
> In our current society, in our world, after ALL the horrible things you see regarding overpopulation and inhumane situations for the abundance of dogs...y'all would rather NOT eradicate your possible contribution to it, for un-valid reasons. That's what erks me.
> 
> So please, enlighten me. What are the reasons to not fix your dog if you don't plan to procreate or show?





ames said:


> Luna blue what are you still waiting for? People have answered as to why not to do it. I explained there are many reasons not to, besides showing a dog. Fixing early causing cancer and growth issues. Why would I want to increase cancer by sputering early? There is reasons on both sides to early vs late and why some choose to do an unnecessary spay and neuter and why some don't. It's only necessary if your not going to be responsible with your dog, or other medical reason. For needing it done. Just doing for pregnancy is ridiculous and lazy IMO when it's easy to prevent that. Apparently you only have met irresponsible owners if you think it's not possible? I'm kinda lost on what you're not getting. Research shows both can be good and both can be bad. Make your own decision while not judging someone else's
> 
> As far as hog hunting I have never heard of a dog that hunts being spayed or neutered. Anyone?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


The ONLY thing in this entire thread that I was getting at was if you are not showing or breeding, my OPINION is that you should S/N. I feel, and again this is my opinion, that it is our responsibility as responsible owners to eradicate even the smallest possibility of contributing to the epidemic we have with over populated shelters and overpopulation with dogs in general. Now I understand that we can not control others...the uneducated, ignorant and poor excuses for human beings that disregard life all bc they want to make $ etc.

To me, it's bigger than us....it's bigger than "our preferences" for our dogs.

S/N medically has both it's pro's and con's, so the medical jargon is controversial and I don't think everyone wants to get into that.

Like many places in the US, I wish you all could witness the poverty and living situations or lack there of all over Arizona with stray dogs. Might make you think differently.

If we're not the solution, we're the problem.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Luna-Blue said:


> To me, it's bigger than us....it's bigger than "our preferences" for our dogs.
> 
> S/N medically has both it's pro's and con's, so the medical jargon is controversial and I don't think everyone wants to get into that.
> 
> ...


I can see this argument going around in circles over and over again. I just wanted to say that I'm in Arizona and I do see a lot of the strays all over Phoenix and even on the reservations as well. These stray dogs do not result from responsible owners. I have pit bull type dogs and there is a high probability that they will be DA someday. Should I remove their teeth at the chance that they may kill another dog or should I educate myself and find actual methods of prevention. The problem in Arizona and many other places around this great country is not that people are not spaying or neutering their dogs. The problem is that people are not educating themselves. You can see the lack of education when looking at dog attacks especially with pit bull type dogs. So our job here at gopitbull is not to force owners into thinking our solutions are the one and only option but our jobs here at gopitbull are to get owners thinking period. Education is always the key. I'm glad you took time to educate yourself though.


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## Cain's Mom (Oct 25, 2012)

rabbit said:


> I can see this argument going around in circles over and over again. I just wanted to say that I'm in Arizona and I do see a lot of the strays all over Phoenix and even on the reservations as well. These stray dogs do not result from responsible owners. I have pit bull type dogs and there is a high probability that they will be DA someday. Should I remove their teeth at the chance that they may kill another dog or should I educate myself and find actual methods of prevention. The problem in Arizona and many other places around this great country is not that people are not spaying or neutering their dogs. The problem is that people are not educating themselves. You can see the lack of education when looking at dog attacks especially with pit bull type dogs. So our job here at gopitbull is not to force owners into thinking our solutions are the one and only option but our jobs here at gopitbull are to get owners thinking period. Education is always the key. I'm glad you took time to educate yourself though.


:goodpost: 

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## shewerewolf (Oct 27, 2010)

Honestly my dogs are only spayed/neutered because they are rescue mutts.....In the future (unless i become a sucker again and adopt more in which case they will be S/N) All my dogs will remain unaltered because i am responsible enough to not let any "accidents" happen. Also I believe in letting dogs mature fully before S/N....but thats my opinion....everyone is allowed one lol...its not being "ignorant"...

Also if my dogs get loose I wouldnt be worried about "accidents" if they werent fixed....id worry about them killing other dogs...as all but 1 of mine are DA at different levels lol


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

see im just the opposite, i s/n everything at 4 months. i need these pups ready for adoption asap and i dont depend on adopters to do it themselves. i need a guarentee that accidents wont happen. im not gunna sit here worried about dogs i rehomed 3 years ago, EVERYTHING gets fixed before they get adopted. i do know the benefits of waiting but i dont have that luxury


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

:goodpost:


redog said:


> see im just the opposite, i s/n everything at 4 months. i need these pups ready for adoption asap and i dont depend on adopters to do it themselves. i need a guarentee that accidents wont happen. im not gunna sit here worried about dogs i rehomed 3 years ago, EVERYTHING gets fixed before they get adopted. i do know the benefits of waiting but i dont have that luxury


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Luna and her best friend Knox this morning! First thing that came to mind after seeing this pic was "Harry and Lloyd" up: Knox is HUGE! He has to be 110lbs or the such. We can't figure out what he may be though. I'm thinking American bulldog/APBT.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Luna-Blue said:


> Luna and her best friend Knox this morning! First thing that came to mind after seeing this pic was "Harry and Lloyd" up: Knox is HUGE! He has to be 110lbs or the such. We can't figure out what he may be though. I'm thinking American bulldog/APBT.


Idk about 110 lbs lol I may be wrong though. Ive beem around many 100+lbs pitbull type dogs. (Pull dogs) he just doesnt seem to be as large as them. I like him though and personally would own him


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Idk about 110 lbs lol I may be wrong though. Ive beem around many 100+lbs pitbull type dogs. (Pull dogs) he just doesnt seem to be as large as them. I like him though and personally would own him


Here's a better pic. Just asked my buddy, Knox is 95lbs...massive little teddy bear


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

95 is alot closer lol. Flex is 90 and if u look at his pics he looks bigger. Nice looking dog though. They look like a dynamic duo for sure.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Weight can be hard to tell by pictures or even in person sometimes.. dead weight aka over weight will always look heavier than an animal that is lean and conditioned or lean muscle with little dead weight.

My Bandog I keep in the mid 90s however if you put him next to a same weight animal with more dead weight, he will look quite a bit smaller. Structure, large bone vs smaller bone also makes a huge difference in an animal.


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