# Which do you prefer?



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

So after some ignoramus posted on a forum,about how ALL pit Bulls should have heavy duty Prong collars,and not harnesses or collars,I decided to see what everyone here thinks.

I personally do not like prong or harnesses. I feel prongs are not necessary unless you really can't control your dog.
and I feel with harnesses,they just encourage your dog to pull more.

I like regular old collars myself,but if I HAD to use a correction one,I would use the nonslip I had for Bruno when he was in training.

What does everyone here think on this issue?

*THIS IS THE PERSON'S ORIGINAL COMMENT*
110 st in NYC needs better screening to these people who want to adopt 1 of these powerfull dogs.. when i see them walking around with A harness instead of a heavy duty pinch collar, & you try to tell the MORON you got 0 controll to no eavale , after the pit fires up just walking by 20 yards away with your dog , its a BIG problem going to happen


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Lol people use to ask me how I can control stack on his 3/4 inch leash and 1/2 inch bucket collar lmao. That is just dumb to think no one can control their dogs without pinch collars.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I know. That really fired me up.
I was told to get one of those for MoMo and BOY was that a bad idea. It pissed her off even more.
It's called stop being lazy and train your dog,so it doesn't need one!

I understand that some people use them to train their dog,but if you feel you have to keep it on your dog 24/7,Your training method obviously isn't working.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Use what works for your dog.

Period.

For Kane, prongs or pinch collars are too hard. They correct him more than he needs and he shuts down. For control, I like harnesses better than a collar because I've basically got his entire body versus just his head/neck, and that's what I initially used when I was being lazy about loose leash walking. Then I gave myself a kick in the butt and after looking at martingale's for a bit decided to just go back to the basics with a flat collar.


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

i pretty much always use a regular collar. i like the products sold by stillwater since theyre high quality and dont let me down. i have never had a need for a prong collar or anything else. i just become more stubborn than my dog and eventually they learn we will be walking how i like, not how they like.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Martingal's aren't to bad,but I find for me they don't work. Beia just chokes herself.
She's not the brightest dog.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Harness to get a better leg workout (and owner workout LOL)
2" collar for more of a "neck" workout (easier owner workout )


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## FrostFell (Jun 21, 2011)

Xiahko said:


> So after some ignoramus posted on a forum,about how ALL pit Bulls should have heavy duty Prong collars,and not harnesses or collars,I decided to see what everyone here thinks.
> 
> I personally do not like prong or harnesses. I feel prongs are not necessary unless you really can't control your dog.
> and I feel with harnesses,they just encourage your dog to pull more.
> ...


Pinch collars are an essential tool when you are physically unable to contain your dog. If you are weak, have a bad back or a bad shoulder, are elderly, or simply are smaller than your dog-- it would be stupid not to have one on. If your dog can outmuscle you, they should have one on.

Not because they _will_, but _because they can._

Would you rather have a teeny tiny 4'8" woman with her dog aggressive pit bull in a prong collar, or a flat collar? That might be the best trained dog on the planet but if he wants to go after another dog you think his owner is gonna be able to stop him?

Say its a Mastiff, who doesnt like kids. You want him in a prong collar or a flat?

Just because the dog is IN power steering doesn't mean its being used all the time.

When I used to have gamebred dogs every dog wore a prong, every time. They heeled on a loose lead and never felt the collar, but it was there for when it was needed, and yeah. A couple times I had to pop the holy hell out of them to get their attention back to me and avert a disaster, but it worked. It broke the situation and we left.

*Every tool has its time and place*


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## JayHawk (Apr 4, 2010)

Prong collars are a training tool they are not designed for nor should they be used for a replacement for everyday collar


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

FrostFell said:


> Pinch collars are an essential tool when you are physically unable to contain your dog. If you are weak, have a bad back or a bad shoulder, are elderly, or simply are smaller than your dog-- it would be stupid not to have one on. If your dog can outmuscle you, they should have one on.
> 
> Not because they _will_, but _because they can._
> 
> ...


I get where you're coming from with gamebred dogs. I could see where there would be a time for them to come in handy.

But I do not agree that the dog needs one 24/7. However I have never owned a gamebred dog,so I can't really say. I have heard it's hard to get them unfocused after they focus on something.

ps: I am also from the Seattle area :3


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I personally dont like prong collars I think there are other just as effect tools to use then those , however i know some who swear by them so to each there own. I prefer just my flatbuckle collars or martingale chains. I do have a choke chain that I use for training if we have a stubborn dog { like crush lol} but majority of the time a couple times with that collar and I can switch back to one of the other 2 styles. I have used a halti on loki cause without it I cant control himI have a bad hip and back but have since decided that i just wont walk him period just to avoid the problem as the halti was counter acting the wp training he is doing. I have since heard bad things about the Haltis like neck injuries and such on the dog.


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

FrostFell said:


> Pinch collars are an essential tool when you are physically unable to contain your dog. If you are weak, have a bad back or a bad shoulder, are elderly, or simply are smaller than your dog-- it would be stupid not to have one on. If your dog can outmuscle you, they should have one on.
> 
> Not because they _will_, but _because they can._
> 
> ...


i never really thought about the really weak person with a prong collar. makes sense. personally, ive never had a dog that i couldnt control so ive never had need for anything like that.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Bruno slipped right out of the halti,after this person was all. oh! They can never get out of them! and adjusted it to fit Bruno...

Ha. Bruno can escape from anything,I should have named him Houdini.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm not a fan honestly, I don't like the "quick fix" idea. (I'm talking about walking)

I used to use prong collars for walking, I was also quite lazy back then. I can control my dogs on a normal flat collar, and each one of the dogs I currently have, have pulled me with all they have and I could still hold them.

If you can't control/hold your dog, there are other training tools that make it easier... Easy walks, halties, etc. 

As for prong collars on reactive dogs, I don't like that either, it heightens the anxiety with a lot of dogs. I've seen prong collars come off under enough pressure too, had it happen during a fight to myself(Dakota broke through a prong while I was trying to pull him away), and a few trainers I know have had them on a DA dog while training an it snapped. (Herm Sprenger, not cheap Petco ones)

It's easy to train a dog to walk on a normal collar, it just takes consistency. And a lot of people give up quickly, every dog learns at a different pace. I've had dogs who didn't start to catch on until 2 weeks of training.

Edit: If you're using a halti, or easy walk, you can also attach a martingale for safety. (In case of slipping)


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I agree 100% I have had nothing but bad experiences with prongs.
I tried everything from those,to shock collars(after training didn't work) on Momo......And we all know how well that turned out.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

If you had a bad experience with prong or had them break then you were not using them correctly. No one is saying the dogs needs them 24/7 but when it comes to powerful dogs and owners who have a hard time hanging on a prong collar is a very powerful tool. Are they for every dog? No some dogs are too soft or have no need for prong collars. 

There has been a lot of research of Halties and all the neck and back problems they cause. I do not even allow them in my class they work for a small percent of dogs but even then they are just a quick fix like a prong collar to get them not to pull. Halties are dangerous if used over time with a dog who pulls against them or time to time consistently.
Slip chains are very dangerous over time and again a lot of research has been done on them. There was a new study done on dogs who wore slip chains and they found in most dogs there were hairline fractures in the neck along with spin issues. This study was done on dogs who were in training their whole lives and used slip chains vs prongs and martingales. After the dogs died they studied the bodies and found all the problems. We were just talking about this when several of us trainers were having lunch.

The walking a harness that attaches from the front, the same as the haltie in pulling the body out of alignment. This again causes issues in the spine. 

For those that need control a prong collar if used correctly is safe and effective. Those trainers that were using it with reactive dogs my guess would be they are not using them correctly. There are ways you need to correct a dog in drive properly to avoid it making them act out more. Timing is also very important, if you are too late with your correction you are not going to have good results. Those trainers that know how to properly use prongs, have good timing, and know how to correct a dog in drive they are very effective. I have seen many so called trainers that have no clue about what makes an effective correction or even how to properly deal with DA dogs. Kinda sad really....

Also there are many ways to use a prong to get the level of correction you need. You can use it on a dead ring to get a lower correction, or if you need to build drive you can build drive by giving corrections a certain way. Many times in Sch we need to build drive while a dog is barking and that can be done with the prong collar. You also can kill drive and bring a dog's drive down with a prong, again all in how you use them.

If you have a soft dog and a prong collar is too corrective them a martingale soft collar or a flat buckle collar works just fine.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Xiahko said:


> I agree 100% I have had nothing but bad experiences with prongs.
> I tried everything from those,to shock collars(after training didn't work) on Momo......And we all know how well that turned out.


This is a perfect example of why people should seek professional help when they have problem dogs. Using a shock collar and having no idea how to use it properly is abusive the to the poor dog you are shocking. A great trainer friend of my has the best line about e collars and ignorant owners.
He said a shock collar with a novice owner, is like giving a monkey a razor blade...... Nothing good is going to come of it! :rofl: It is funnier when he says it in his German accent! Using an E collar can be a very effective tool unfortunately not many ppl know how to use them properly! Just like all these sit means sit franchises that pop up. you can be a "trainer" and an owner of the franchise by going to a 6 week seminar..... You cannot learn to be a train in 6 weeks and these people RUIN dogs!


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I agree Lisa they can be great tool if used in the proper manner. When I first moved in with Ryan and was working with Mack Tuck on walking and commands, Ryan would not let me walk him with out A. Being right next to me, and B. wearing his prong. The reason was this dog out weighed me and was more than twice as powerful. He wanted us to be safe, and have me learn how to handle him. After living hear a while, and spending a lot of time with him, we didn't need it anymore.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Yes, I do agree that if they break you're using it wrong. I mentioned it for DA and reactive dogs because if they want to get to w/e it is they're reacting at enough, they could get out of a prong. 
And yes, they were cruddy trainers. I was ignorant back then and let them work with Dakota. They train heel horridly, even their own dogs were avoiding eye contact because they were uncomfortable. Every dog I've seen come out of the training course they offer turned awesome to very nervous.

I don't like halties or easy walks too much myself, I would use a normal collar every time. A lot of people I know seem to refuse to use anything other than such, so I generally recommend some sort of safety for those.

I'm not one for owning a dog you can't control as it is.


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

Celestial88 said:


> Yes, I do agree that if they break you're using it wrong. I mentioned it for DA and reactive dogs because if they want to get to w/e it is they're reacting at enough, they could get out of a prong.
> And yes, they were cruddy trainers. I was ignorant back then and let them work with Dakota. They train heel horridly, even their own dogs were avoiding eye contact because they were uncomfortable. Every dog I've seen come out of the training course they offer turned awesome to very nervous.
> 
> I don't like halties or easy walks too much myself, I would use a normal collar every time. A lot of people I know seem to refuse to use anything other than such, so I generally recommend some sort of safety for those.
> ...


i know what you mean about people owning a dog they cant control. i saw a tiny little girl walking a big pit bull type dog down the street the other day and you could tell by the way they were walking that if that dog chose, he could pull her wherever he wanted to go. since my max has gotten a little bigger i havent let anyone walk him but me. for some reason he doesnt 'try" me but he will really work someone else.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Don't you know that a prong collar is like power steering in a car? LOL! 

I don't like them but I have used them in the past over the years with other dogs. Bella is pretty soft and gentle on the leash until she see's a small furry animal but we are working on that with redirection lol! I walk Bella on her 1 1/2 inch Nizmo or tablerock collar and she heels by my side. Guess OB classes payed off  but with her easy going nature I wasn't suprised and she made training even easier. The first trainer I went to told me I should use a prong collar on Bella and then after telling me how sweet my girl is told me I should use a shock collar/ E-collar on her as well but he was "old school" in his training methods. Needless to say I found a different trainer and my next guy was all about positive reinforcement not shocking or poking your dog into submission. I think different training tools can work in some situations but they are just not for me and my dog doesn't need them ATM


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

I started out with a prong for Bob to correct bad behavior. he also wears a dogtra so I can melt him to the pavement if he needs it. he's not a pitbull but a powerfull dog none the less. he is not my friend he's my dog. Lucy likes the harness and I can correct her by lifting her front feet off the ground for that moment that shows her Im in control. to each their own. as long as you have full control over your dog in public.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Celestial88 said:


> Yes, I do agree that if they break you're using it wrong. I mentioned it for DA and reactive dogs because if they want to get to w/e it is they're reacting at enough, they could get out of a prong.
> *And yes, they were cruddy trainers*. I was ignorant back then and let them work with Dakota. They train heel horridly, even their own dogs were avoiding eye contact because they were uncomfortable. Every dog I've seen come out of the training course they offer turned awesome to very nervous.
> 
> I don't like halties or easy walks too much myself, I would use a normal collar every time. A lot of people I know seem to refuse to use anything other than such, so I generally recommend some sort of safety for those.
> ...


If they are cruddy trainers then you can use them in a thread like this as a reliable source to make comments that prongs can cause issues with certain dog. I do not take what ppl like that do seriously or use them in something I am trying to make comments about. Make sure you have creditable sources so your comments are educated.... That sounds rude but please know I am not trying to be rude It's just Early and I can't think of another way to say it 

I also do not agree about not owning a dog you can't control. I have plenty of clients that have dogs they can't control but they are good owners and just needed someone to show them how. I think there is truth to what you say to a point. Those that get dogs and get help are the responsible owners. I do have the occasional clients like this 80 something couple get a large male intact rottie........ Why? The dog drug them down in the parking lot and they never had control. I finely convinced them to place him and get a schnauzer. Sheesh what were they thinking!! I have also had some elderly clients get great Danes, mastiffs, and so on..... they all need poodles! 



redog said:


> I started out with a prong for Bob to correct bad behavior. he also wears a dogtra so I can melt him to the pavement if he needs it. he's not a pitbull but a powerfull dog none the less. he is not my friend he's my dog. Lucy likes the harness and I can correct her by lifting her front feet off the ground for that moment that shows her Im in control. to each their own. as long as you have full control over your dog in public.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> This is a perfect example of why people should seek professional help when they have problem dogs. Using a shock collar and having no idea how to use it properly is abusive the to the poor dog you are shocking. A great trainer friend of my has the best line about e collars and ignorant owners.
> He said a shock collar with a novice owner, is like giving a monkey a razor blade...... Nothing good is going to come of it! :rofl: It is funnier when he says it in his German accent! Using an E collar can be a very effective tool unfortunately not many ppl know how to use them properly! Just like all these sit means sit franchises that pop up. you can be a "trainer" and an owner of the franchise by going to a 6 week seminar..... You cannot learn to be a train in 6 weeks and these people RUIN dogs!


I was shown by a trainer how to effectively use the collar. HOWEVER MoMo was a very sensitive dog,and it wasn't any help to her.
I had no choice when it came to the collar,it was that or get kicked out of my apt.
That dog was just a ball of stress. She went to training and a behaviorist,but nothing seemed to help. It was just better she was pts.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

rob32 said:


> i know what you mean about people owning a dog they cant control. i saw a tiny little girl walking a big pit bull type dog down the street the other day and you could tell by the way they were walking that if that dog chose, he could pull her wherever he wanted to go. since my max has gotten a little bigger i havent let anyone walk him but me. for some reason he doesnt 'try" me but he will really work someone else.


I agree. I do not let anyone but myself or my roomie walk Bruno or Beia.
Bruno does not pull anymore,b8ut beia sure does,and Bruno is just so darn strong,that if you aren't watching him,and he sees a cat,well...there goes your arm right out of the socket.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

*For those that need control a prong collar if used correctly is safe and effective. Those trainers that were using it with reactive dogs my guess would be they are not using them correctly. There are ways you need to correct a dog in drive properly to avoid it making them act out more. Timing is also very important, if you are too late with your correction you are not going to have good results. Those trainers that know how to properly use prongs, have good timing, and know how to correct a dog in drive they are very effective. I have seen many so called trainers that have no clue about what makes an effective correction or even how to properly deal with DA dogs. Kinda sad really....*

See, that was my #1 problem. The trainer did not know how to handle MoMo,cause she was so darn DA/HA.

When they used the prong on her,she went wild,flailing about and screeching. It was embarrassing. :/

So I guess it really just boils down,to my bad experience,cause I wasn't using it the proper way.

I haven;t had to use one again,cause Bruno and Beia are no MoMo.(thank God)

But if I ever had to use one again(I hope not) I will make sure to contact you before,so I can make sure it's being done the correct way.

The shock collar actually worked on Momo. Got her to shut up,and stop her constant barking. After that,all I had to do was show her the collar if she was starting up again,and she immediately became mute.

I hate those things,and I find them abusive,but then again it is my own opinion.
I hated using it on her,but it was a last resort. 
I really should have just PTS long before I did. But I was just to stubborn.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> If they are cruddy trainers then you can use them in a thread like this as a reliable source to make comments that prongs can cause issues with certain dog. I do not take what ppl like that do seriously or use them in something I am trying to make comments about. Make sure you have creditable sources so your comments are educated.... That sounds rude but please know I am not trying to be rude It's just Early and I can't think of another way to say it
> 
> I also do not agree about not owning a dog you can't control. I have plenty of clients that have dogs they can't control but they are good owners and just needed someone to show them how. I think there is truth to what you say to a point. Those that get dogs and get help are the responsible owners. I do have the occasional clients like this 80 something couple get a large male intact rottie........ Why? The dog drug them down in the parking lot and they never had control. I finely convinced them to place him and get a schnauzer. Sheesh what were they thinking!! I have also had some elderly clients get great Danes, mastiffs, and so on..... they all need poodles!


I actually met an older lady yesterday who had Danes her whole life,and she was most definitely in control of that dog. Of course in human years that dog was about as old as she was...LOL.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

every time i see prongs used by novices its just wound the dog up more


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

The prong was the only thing that worked for my hard headed dog. I use the herman springer with small links. She was trained in her OB class with it so I learned to use it properly. I really do not need it anymore, but Helena still needs lots of reminders without it if we are out in a really busy public area and she gets overly excited. 

But before I tried everything else, nylon slip collars, harness, gentle leader, martingales... nothing phased this dog. When the prong goes on, we never even need to pop it, she just knows that we mean business.


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## dylroche1 (Mar 14, 2010)

I use a heavy duty leather harness that he steps into and clips up onto his back and I started him out on prong collars... Never had a problem with him pulling because of that.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

What is all this talk about not owning a dog you can't control and that if you can't out-muscle the dog you should be automatically using a prong collar??

There's no way in heck I could control Kane if he decided to throw his weight around. I'm 5 foot, 100lbs soaking wet, and he's 52lbs of muscle.

Do you know how I control him? With respect and a simple flat collar. That's all you need**. The assumption that I should have him in a prong collar just because he could overpower me is ridiculous. That's like saying I should always have him muzzled because if he wanted to, he could bite me.

**some dogs are more stubborn than others. but for softer dogs like kane, going straight to a prong collar is overkill.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Oh man if Mack would have ever disobeyed and gone after something I would have been in some serious trouble. He was almost 25lbs heavier than me and very very strong. I'm so glad we never had anything crazy happen lol.


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## FrostFell (Jun 21, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> What is all this talk about not owning a dog you can't control and that if you can't out-muscle the dog you should be automatically using a prong collar??
> 
> There's no way in heck I could control Kane if he decided to throw his weight around. I'm 5 foot, 100lbs soaking wet, and he's 52lbs of muscle.
> 
> ...


The prong is a safety net. No one is saying that your well trained dog _will_ blow you off, only that he _can._ And if he _does_, and you are physically, due to injury, size, or age, unable to dig in your heels and hold him back, you could have a tragic incident on your hands.

We all know, it only takes *one* tragic incident to cause a ban, or the death of someones beloved pet/child/skateboard. (note I am not meaning to say children and pets are rated with inanimate objects, I am just trying to be a little silly)

If you fall into the category of being unable to physically and with brute force, outmuscle your dog, and they are NOT so soft that the mere presence of a prong will wilt them, I firmly believe they should wear one. If they don't need it, don't ever correct them on it. But it should still be there.

But we are aiming for 0% tragic accidents yes? Not "most of the time"?


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

IMO, if you need to better control your dog, you should work your way UP, not work your way DOWN in terms of level of correction. It can take only one over-correction to break the trust/respect your dog has for you. I disagree that you should automatically go to a prong collar to control your dog if they are stronger than you.

That's all I'm saying.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> What is all this talk about not owning a dog you can't control and that if you can't out-muscle the dog you should be automatically using a prong collar??
> 
> There's no way in heck I could control Kane if he decided to throw his weight around. I'm 5 foot, 100lbs soaking wet, and he's 52lbs of muscle.
> 
> ...


If he "decided" to throw his weight around? So I am guessing he usually doesn't? Does he usually mind well, does he require very little correction? I just wonder what you mean by respect.... lol he respects you or you respect him? When my doggy see's something she wants, it aint about respect... it's about getting her under control. I am not a real big girl 5'5 120... Helena is about 47lbs and very strong but I can still throw her butt to the ground if need be. But I refuse to let an animal get the upper hand on me.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> IMO, if you need to better control your dog, you should work your way UP, not work your way DOWN in terms of level of correction. It can take only one over-correction to break the trust/respect your dog has for you. I disagree that you should automatically go to a prong collar to control your dog if they are stronger than you.
> 
> That's all I'm saying.


I would just love to see you handle a real bulldog who was really fired up. :rofl:


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I have trouble controlling 2 dogs at one time,so I walk one dog at a time.
I have trouble sometimes holding Bruno cause he is strong,but I have found that all I have to do is get him riled up and excited about something else,and his attention is back on me.

for instance, the other day the neighbor was opening his door,and Bruno was on game mode,cause he KNOWS that the little minpin in there wants to duke it out with him,he started to pull and focus,and all I did was yank him a little and get my high pitch baby voice on,and was like "Bruno! Bruno look! what's this! Look! You want it?"
and his attention was fully on me again.cause he wanted to know wth I was on. LOL

And once his attention is back on me,I walk away from the situation. This works pretty much 100% of the time. Now if he was a real game dog,I'm pretty positive it wont work on him. 

As for Beia,she is very voice sensitive,so all I have to do is raise my voice,and she goes into immediate submission. Or when she's off leash at home,she crates herself. LOL


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Shes Got Heart said:


> If he "decided" to throw his weight around? So I am guessing he usually doesn't? Does he usually mind well, does he require very little correction? I just wonder what you mean by respect.... lol he respects you or you respect him? When my doggy see's something she wants, it aint about respect... it's about getting her under control. I am not a real big girl 5'5 120... Helena is about 47lbs and very strong but I can still throw her butt to the ground if need be. But I refuse to let an animal get the upper hand on me.


What I mean is that Kane minds well. Most of the time, he requires very little correction, usually a stern voice. When he sees another dog, he will pull to them, but I can prevent him from getting too excited by making him focus on me. The only time I have trouble controlling him is when a stupid squirrel runs in front of him or something. And then I have no problems digging my heels in and throwing my weight back against his lunge. Once he hits the end of his leash, it's like he's jerked back into himself and he goes into an auto-down to apologize to me. That's what I mean by respect.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Shes Got Heart said:


> I would just love to see you handle a real bulldog who was really fired up. :rofl:


That's why I don't own a real bulldog.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

The prong should be used as a tool, not a "safety net." Dosia is a big dog and if he was to fire up and go after another dog, believe me he'd have no problem dragging me around. He's a very powerful boy, but he has been well trained and is very obedient. We used our prong only for training and corrections. I haven't used or even seen his prong in way over a year. The " heel", and "leave it" commands work great for us and we have no problems. Even though my dog is DA, I can walk past a yard with fired up dogs and not worry about a thing. He minds his business and keeps going. He's also been a dream out at WP practice. He pays no attention to the other dogs and keeps his mind on the task at hand.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I wasn't acting like that trainer was a creditable source... I was simply saying that they can break under enough pressure. That's the only example I used that trainer in, that they had used it on a DA dog whom broke through the prong. Hence, me stating if a dog wanted to get at something enough and had the power they could pop a prong. 

I feel short, 5,1 lol Well, I am...


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> What is all this talk about not owning a dog you can't control and that if you can't out-muscle the dog you should be automatically using a prong collar??
> 
> There's no way in heck I could control Kane if he decided to throw his weight around. I'm 5 foot, 100lbs soaking wet, and he's 52lbs of muscle.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is saying if you have a large dog they need a prong collar. If you can control your dog on a flat then by all means use a flat collar.
Some of the biggest babies I know are large dogs and need nothing more than a dirty look to keep them in check. How ever if you have a big strong dog and have a hard time a prong collar can be just what you need.



k8nkane said:


> IMO, if you need to better control your dog, you should work your way UP, not work your way DOWN in terms of level of correction. It can take only one over-correction to break the trust/respect your dog has for you. I disagree that you should automatically go to a prong collar to control your dog if they are stronger than you.
> 
> That's all I'm saying.


:goodpost: I totally agree! I am very much for prong collars however they are not the first things I use when working with dogs. I would rather work on a flat collar till I need something more, then martingale then prong. You also need to know when to switch back and fourth. If you are training basic commands you just need a flat collar when you start walking you might need to switch to the prong. you have to use your head and when you use a prong correctly the dog is not scared they are happy and willing to work.



k8nkane said:


> That's why I don't own a real bulldog.


:roll: That is being responsible! If you ever want to see the power they have you can come work with Barca! lol

Back to the OP If your girl was HA then yes she probably should have been put down a long time ago. I wish you were closer I would have loved to help figure out what was wrong.
I am not the end all be all to dog training, I am always learning new things and going to seminars and I think that is part of growing as trainer. Back when I started we jerked the hell out of all dogs and forced them to do what we wanted now we know better and do more motivational techniques. I will say I have worked with some great trainers and learned many ways to deal with DA and HA and I have also seen many trainers fail miserably when it comes to something they are unsure of. You made the best choice by PTS


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Oh yeah,she was HA. But it was selective,if you were to come inside my house she was ok with you most of the time,but outside,it was all lunging and biting at most people.

Kids in general. Yet,she use to love kids...I still have no idea why she suddenly started going after them.


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## bearsxx (Apr 16, 2011)

I think it depends on the individual and what works best for them. As stated by several people the main goal is to make sure nothing bad happens. I am 6'3" 240lbs and Ariya is almost 40lbs and I can feel her strength at times, mainly when she sees another dog. I can only imagine the strength of a fully mature APBT or AB.


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## FrostFell (Jun 21, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> IMO, if you need to better control your dog, you should work your way UP, not work your way DOWN in terms of level of correction. It can take only one over-correction to break the trust/respect your dog has for you. I disagree that you should automatically go to a prong collar to control your dog if they are stronger than you.
> 
> That's all I'm saying.


I am not saying you are using it for corrections. I am saying you are using it for safety.

Your Arabian stallion might be a peach 99% of the time, but you would be utterly stupid to lead him around with a piece of twine. No, you put a stud chain on him and then never touch it. You may never use it, but if you need it you will be glad its there. If you never use it, its just a piece of metal hanging there doing absolutely nothing.

Why are you insisting that because a dog is wearing a prong, hes getting the hell yanked out of his neck every other second?

Its been years since I have even taken the 3 foot slack out of a leash, much less given a collar correction, but if I need to, its there.

*Prevention.*


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Xiahko said:


> Oh yeah,she was HA. But it was selective,if you were to come inside my house she was ok with you most of the time,but outside,it was all lunging and biting at most people.
> 
> Kids in general. Yet,she use to love kids...I still have no idea why she suddenly started going after them.


That is not true HA, Ha is a dog who would do after anyone outside of the family pack whether it is inside the house or outside the house. It would have been interesting to see that dog and find out what her problems truly were. HA is not selective, you can have a dog show aggression towards other but not be HA it could be a bunch of other factors going on.


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## JayHawk (Apr 4, 2010)

The prong collar can be an effective training tool but its not an excuse for someone not to learn to how to control their dog.
even my 110lb daughter has learned to lock her legs in front of a dogs hips and lift their front end off the ground she also has the knowledge and ability to use a break stick to part a dog from a hide, though I dont think that she could remain calm enough to seperate 2 dogs she does know how.
these dogs have been controlled and seperated for a long long time without the use of prong collars but if a person feels that they need a prong collar to control their dog they should also seek the help of a professional/experienced with the breed to learn about control and what to do when control is lost or maybe reconsider their choice of breeds


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## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

So without reading all of the pages,I just have to say that when a prong collar is used correctly it is very effective and does NOT mean you are lazy, in some cases yes, but in others no, it is wrong to just assume ppl are lazy cause they have prong collars on their dogs. I put on on Phoenix (RIP) anytime we went out in public, i.e Petmart, downtown to fesitvals, Mighty Texas Dog Walk, due to the fact that I have better control, can I control my dog , YES I could it was an added security measure for jst in case, you never know when someone else isn't going to be as savvy as you are about where their dogs are. I also use choke chains but not tha toften and none of my dogs ever wore a prong unless it was for tranng, now I learned my lesson about the choke chains the hard way and after that, they only wore the flat buckle collars when we left the house. But I could control and walk them all with just the buckle collars even for someone who has a bad back. I have trained all of dogs with prong collars, then moved onto to choke chains and then just a buckle collar period, but some of them need that extra added measure is all.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

If I am taking more than one dog into petsmart they all get prongs as a control measure. Sometimes I have 6 dogs with me and trained or not that is a lot and a prong keeps them in line.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

FrostFell said:


> I am not saying you are using it for corrections. I am saying you are using it for safety.
> 
> Your Arabian stallion might be a peach 99% of the time, but you would be utterly stupid to lead him around with a piece of twine. No, you put a stud chain on him and then never touch it. You may never use it, but if you need it you will be glad its there. If you never use it, its just a piece of metal hanging there doing absolutely nothing.
> 
> ...


Where did I "insist" that because your dogs wear a prong that you must be yanking the heck out of them? I never once said that in any of my posts or even suggested it.

Let me again re-phrase what I'm trying to say--I think it's dangerous to say that if your dog is more powerful than you, it should be in a prong collar as a safety precaution. That is a blanket statement and blanket statements aren't good when it involves dog training.

Dogs are individuals. You need to use what works for both you and the dog. If I were a newbie and came on this board to learn something, I might see your comment and think, yes, that makes sense what they're saying, and put a prong on my dog--even though if I did that to Kane, he would shut down and begin to lose trust in me.

I've never once said that people who use prongs are yanking the heck out of their dogs or shouldn't be using them--I've only ever had issue with your blanket statement that all powerful dogs should have a prong collar on them, regardless of how soft or hard they may be in terms of personality.

I personally don't have an issue with prongs. If that's what works for you, and you use it correctly, more power to you. Although I do find it laughable for anyone to think that if a bulldog wants something, a pinch around the neck is going to stop them from getting it. These dogs were bred to fight and power their way through pain.


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## FrostFell (Jun 21, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> Where did I "insist" that because your dogs wear a prong that you must be yanking the heck out of them? I never once said that in any of my posts or even suggested it.
> 
> Let me again re-phrase what I'm trying to say--I think it's dangerous to say that if your dog is more powerful than you, it should be in a prong collar as a safety precaution. That is a blanket statement and blanket statements aren't good when it involves dog training.
> 
> ...


Yes you did. you said, specifically, that a prong collar is too much correction for some dogs-- and I am insisting that no correction needs to take place, and that Im not talking about correcting a dog with a prong. You are talking about something completely different than I am


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Except that a correction doesn't have to be the physical act of correcting. The dog determines what is a correction/aversive, not the owner. For some dogs, like mine and others, the simple act of putting a prong on them, whether or not you actually "use it" to "correct" them, is a correction.

That's why I have an issue with your blanket statement to use a prong on all powerful dogs, regardless.

If you don't understand what I'm trying to say after this, then I don't know what to tell you. I can't think of any other way to put it.


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

I use a prong on my girls when we go for walks. I have never had a problem controlling either of them with the prong and I am 5'2 and 100 lbs. I am never worried my dog will get away from me or drag me down the street. I have never had to do some crazy correction that would make it come apart on my dogs neck, but i did watch the videos and they ALWAYS have the second collar on as back up. My husband and I go on walks with the girls and Rudi tends to forget her manners when Belle is out walking as well so it takes some correcting to have an enjoyable walk. The prong makes it so easy to get the correction I can't imagine taking a ton of time correcting on a flat collar just to go on a walk with my husband. Jmo


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

I've never seen a prong collar in NZ, I handle my dogs just with their collar and my voice.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> That is not true HA, Ha is a dog who would do after anyone outside of the family pack whether it is inside the house or outside the house. It would have been interesting to see that dog and find out what her problems truly were. HA is not selective, you can have a dog show aggression towards other but not be HA it could be a bunch of other factors going on.


I wish you could have looked at her. Maybe you could have saved her. But if she was still alive,I wouldn't have Beia,and who knows where she would have ended up.

So in a way,it is better she's gone. Miss her though,just wish I could have done right by her. Still kick myself in the butt about it,but what's done is done.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

When Bob has his prong on high and tight, he walks and acts fine. I aways back it up with a slip color. been too many times Ive had a prong come apart with no back up. He usually has 3 different collars on at once depending on the day. dogtra will drop him if he ever got away from me. I refuse to ever put anyone in danger because of equipment failure. Hes never off his rope when hes out in the yard so when we work he uses a flat color alone. {thanks niz}. and remember, Bob is not an apbt. theres more things to worry about with a dog like him


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## FrostFell (Jun 21, 2011)

redog said:


> When Bob has his prong on high and tight, he walks and acts fine. I aways back it up with a slip color. been too many times Ive had a prong come apart with no back up. He usually has 3 different collars on at once depending on the day. dogtra will drop him if he ever got away from me. I refuse to ever put anyone in danger because of equipment failure. Hes never off his rope when hes out in the yard so when we work he uses a flat color alone. {thanks niz}. and remember, Bob is not an apbt. theres more things to worry about with a dog like him


What is Bob?


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

just like any job, use the tools necessary to get it done right. if i'm driving nails, i wouldn't use a 20 pound sledge hammer. but if i was breaking boulders.... that's a tougher job that requires different hardware.
i've never used a prong collar. maybe i've just been lucky to have easily manageable dogs. i wouldn't hesitate to use one if the situation called for it.
i like the harness. when my boy is on the harness he knows it's okay to pull. and he gets a pretty good workout (i'm 6'2" 280 and i lean back for the whole ride).
i like the collar when we are in public. he knows i'm leading and he plays his position perfectly. a pulling pitbull sets the general pop on edge. on the collar he's more relaxed and understands it's a social outing rather than exercise.

funny thing happened the other day that my harness actually came in handy. out of nowhere, this suicidal chihuahua charged right at Gotti. i barely had time to react. so i heaved his 70lbs up and literally slung him over my shoulder and he was dangling from his harness on my back. i took a couple nicks from the ankle biter. and i probably looked like a circus act. but the harness gave me a few moments for the owner (who walked very slowly the whole way) to finally gather up his dog.


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## Eric (Oct 21, 2010)

Well most of you know I rescued Whitman when he was about 8 wks and for the first 6 months or so, I used a harness because I thought just a collar would put too much strain on his neck with him being that young. I guess it was an amateurish mistake (that I won't repeat again) because now all he does is pull.

But now I use nothing but his regular collar. During class, I use a martingale and when we go out and I know that it will be very busy with other people and possibly dogs, I use a prong collar. Only time he gets the harness is when we are going out for a run. Going to class and working there has helped quite a lot compared to before even though he still pulls. We're always working on it though


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

FrostFell said:


> What is Bob?


Your uncle?

LOL. It's his dog. A cutie too!


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Bob is a bandogg. He's a beautiful boy but he's mighty big and powerful.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

i use just regular collars with mine.But am not opposed to using a prong collar if I need to.When I had Rotti's and GSD's I would use a prong while walking them.But back then I was only 95 lbs and 5'2.


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