# ADBA out look on the AMerican Bully



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Interesting read on the out look that the ADBA has on the american bully and why they have no plans to recognise as it's own breed. This is based on the fact the the ADBA see them as being bred the same just with out purpose, So the ADBA say a dog bred away from standard is still is the same breed just a bad rep of one.

How ever please read let me know what you think and if it should be added to the regular forum I know it will bring a stir of different emotions.

American Dog Breeders Association


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

It is a good read; however, it is evident they are assuming things about the ABKC. Post it in the General Forum as I don't think it is American Bully breed education. I'll comment later when I get back home. It might be a good conversation.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

I actually recommended originally that it go in General, but giving it some more thought, and after going back and reading the sticky in the bloodline section of the interview with Dave Wilson, that it would be better suited in Bloodlines. I suggested Rudy put it here first so we can have ALL mods' attention on this when it goes public because I can see it getting very heated, very quickly. Especially with the conflicting information between this article and what Mr. Wilson said himself.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Its a good read... Makes some key points, kinda reminds me of some things I've posted on here myself.. that may in-fact sum this article up. 

such as:
}take 15yrs of selective breeding for the bully to be a breed of its own 
}APBT genetically bred back to any (bully) if well bred the working/traditional APBT , working stock will dominate.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

ThaLadyPit said:


> I actually recommended originally that it go in General, but giving it some more thought, and after going back and reading the sticky in the bloodline section of the interview with Dave Wilson, that it would be better suited in Bloodlines. I suggested Rudy put it here first so we can have ALL mods' attention on this when it goes public because I can see it getting very heated, very quickly. Especially with the conflicting information between this article and what Mr. Wilson said himself.


What conflicting information given by Dave? The misprint from the newspaper that refused to print a retraction years ago?


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Yes, and no. I went back and re-read it to be sure.. and Mr. Wilson did say SOME breeders did include bulldog in their crosses. But going along with what he says are the foundation of the American Bully and what ADBA's article is touching on, is that the Am Bully is comprised of APBT and AST. 

I did search and search, and that response to the article in 2006 was the only thing I could find regarding the creation of the American Bully, so perhaps I was a little quick to say they conflict.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

ThaLadyPit said:


> Yes, and no. I went back and re-read it to be sure.. and Mr. Wilson did say SOME breeders did include bulldog in their crosses. But going along with what he says are the foundation of the American Bully and what ADBA's article is touching on, is that the Am Bully is comprised of APBT and AST.
> 
> I did search and search, and that response to the article in 2006 was the only thing I could find regarding the creation of the American Bully, so perhaps I was a little quick to say they conflict.


This is a statement from Dave written yesterday. It's an excerpt from a much larger thing he wrote in regards to several different issues in the Bully World right now including ABKC Nationals, but this part should clarify about the article.

Back in 2006, I believe and excuse me if some of this wording or exact dates are not completely accurate, the Elite Edge and myself hosted a show in Virginia. This was one of the first big indoor events for this breed and we tried to go all out with it. The city of Fredericksburg had huge issues with the event. They did not want the type of dogs nor the type of people having an event like this in their community. For months they tried to shut it down any way they could. I personally had to fight with city council, police department, animal control, and other government offices. I had to fight over discrimination, racism, profiling, and breed slander. I fought for over 3 months straight and exhausted my mind, body, and funds over it. In the end they could not shut us down, they tried their hardest and were able to stop certain elements of the event, but they could not stop the event. 



Then the local paper wrote a horrific article about the show, comparing the event to a serial killer who had murdered two young girls, and referenced a story about an elderly lady who had been mauled to death by a pack of dogs. 



The outcome of this story brought picketers to boycott the event, but in the end the event prevailed. The newspaper came out did a front-page positive story on the event! They apologized for their original bashing of the event and went on to praise the breed and the event. 



In this story they asked me how this breed was created, and I stated that certain breeders bred the American Pit Bull Terrier with the American Staffordshire Terrier and bred for the bully traits within the lines. They misprinted and wrote certain breeders bred the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier and Bulldog lines. *I caught the misprint and in the next issue they made the correction in a highlight clarifying the mistake; however, our own community did not care, they took the original piece and ran with: "Dave Wilson admitted to mixing Bulldogs in his line". *



So here is a case of where our breed prevailed over negative stereotypes, where the breed overcame discrimination and won! A story that shows how our dogs and us personally changed the negative perceptions that a City and Media had towards our dogs and us into a positive image. We won a battle over discrimination and negative stereotypes. What a great story, what a great triumph, this should have been glorified and promoted; but no, what does our community do? They run with a misprint and start rumors and drama over that. 
I am sad to say that this has been the "norm" for our community. In our community gossip, drama, and rumors are promoted, where as what the breed really needs is forgotten. We have a breed that wants nothing more than to please us, it's a perfect breed; and we as its representatives destroy all the great attributes by attacking ourselves and bringing drama and negativity towards our breed. We will be the demise of this breed! Think about that the next time you see drama, gossip, public fighting, and all the negativity we promote internally within our community. 



Dave has told me this exact story face to face and this is the truth about the whole ordeal.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Yes, I read the statement you posted yesterday in the UKC Bully thread in Bullies 101; yes, I was referring to his statement regarding the newspaper article in '06 about the B2B Convention. I believe we all know all too well about the way rumors are spread, especially when it comes to the media.



> Some breeders even included some bulldog lineage into their breeding.


This ^ is what I'm referring to, and what caused me to say originally that it's conflicting with what ADBA's article says. I couldn't remember specifically what it said, other than other breeds being used, which is why I went back and re-read it today.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

sooooooooo they are saying they ARE pit bulls? They mention greed and money blah blah blah, but don't focus on what the dogs actually are really. one registry calling another registry greedy? Seriously? If its not a NEW breed, then that means they feel they are not just conforming pit bulls. I am kinda bothered by that because I spend so much time telling people their American Bully is not an APBT WTF

"Let's call a spade a spade. Is the American Bully a *new* breed? Not by a long shot! It is just a clever way of *marketing the extreme within the American Pit Bull Terrier breed*, with a lot of hype and flash to make a buck off the unsuspecting public. Yes, you can pander, but if you want to build a reputation that lasts, if you want to be the voice that some (not all!) in the market seek out, this is nothing but a trap, a test to see if you can resist short-term greed long enough to hold on to something that is worth keeping in its original form."


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Yep They are saying that the ground work for a new breed has not been laid. That hte Bully is just a badly for of minipullating the breed that already is in place. If the mix was out side the originall breed stock then it should be shown and not be oh some breeders are using other bulldogs, there is no way for consistant foundation that way.

That is the way I take it.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> Yep They are saying that the ground work for a new breed has not been laid. That hte Bully is just a badly for of minipullating the breed that already is in place. If the mix was out side the originall breed stock then it should be shown and not be oh some breeders are using other bulldogs, there is no way for consistant foundation that way.
> 
> That is the way I take it.


I can't believe this person really believes that NOTHING else was added in at some point somewhere and all ABs are just corrupt bloodlines.



> Is the American Bully a new breed? Not by a long shot! It is just a clever way of marketing the extreme within the American Pit Bull Terrier breed


I mean does he really believe that there are APBTs out there that "extreme?" Now I kinda find the article amusing after reading it a few more times. lol @ PA Bullock and _friends_


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> I can't believe this person really believes that NOTHING else was added in at some point somewhere and all ABs are just corrupt bloodlines.
> 
> Nope not what is said THat if some one wishes to mix breeds to create one then should be said and consise not a mix of who ever wants to add what ever they want that is no way to start a breed. Then how can any one breed to standard if they don't know what makes up the breed.
> 
> And PA Bullock would be Patty bullock the daughter of Ralph Greenwood. Along with others after questioned why the ADBA doesnt add the Bully like the UKC did.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> pitbullmamanatl said:
> 
> 
> > I can't believe this person really believes that NOTHING else was added in at some point somewhere and all ABs are just corrupt bloodlines.
> ...


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Okay, so where do we think it would best fit? Bloodlines, General or Bullies? I know Rudy and I are both interested in the views/opinions that other members will have on this article.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Think Bloodlines less traffic and easier to watch cause I think it will get interesting...


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Rudy4747 said:


> Think Bloodlines less traffic and easier to watch cause I think it will get interesting...


That's my final thought on it as well... Not too many frequent the bloodlines section with actual input or interest. We can handle the spammers as they come.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Do you want to move this one there or a hole new one. I think our discusion with Moma's input helps set the tone for the convo?.?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:rofl: yup, be a good one...


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Yeah, I'll move this one.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks!


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Welcome! Glad I could help out.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Absolutely nothing new here, many of the same points I've made over and over are within the context of such.. though amusing that one registry of which function has also greatly left calling out another for lack of function..

However to be expected ..

Too tired to repeat everything I've said before but again nothing new, might as well copy and paste everything I said in that dax thread.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

nuh huh... might as well re post everything I've said :roll: :rofl: :rofl: It's pretty simple ain't it.. ??


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Yes sir alot of folks share the sae opinion. Thought folks that were intrested in such thing would like to know why the ADBA would not be following suit as the UKC has begain registering Am Bullies.


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## Coyne1981 (Mar 5, 2013)

Interesting read Rudy. Thanks! So the bully is just a nonconforming APBT? I still wouldn't dare call my dog an APBT. lol.

"The pedigrees of the American Bullies are a mixture of UKC/ ADBA registered American Pit Bull Terriers and AKC registered American Staffordshire Terriers (which were all UKC/ADBA registered APBTs prior to 1936 when the AKC opened their stud book to the breed). There are NO dogs from other breeds represented in the pedigrees, so genetically American Bullies are registered American Pit Bull Terriers with a ‘type’ and conformation way outside of the breed standards for the AKC, UKC and the ADBA."


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

because APBT is a registry name for the working bulldog... you have a bulldog until otherwise proven  Keep it simple. Genetically they all come from the same pot, only one is true all the way through. 

I like the ADBA standing on it.... I think they should have a category for the big dogs though, Bandog category or whatever for all those working bulldogs over 80 somehting lbs. JMO though.


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## jaceaa (Aug 20, 2012)

It is very frustrated that the ADBA won’t register them as a separate breed or at least a separate category. Every time I searched for breeders I would find pages where American Bully’s were being generically referred to as pit bulls by their breeders. People by these pups and they think they really have something, because they paid enough for 4 quality pups to get 1 dog that doesn’t meet the standard. I have seen people show up to an ADBA show only to be embarrassed that they brought their dog to the wrong type of show cause they didn’t know the difference. There needs to be some other designation. Nobody is going to claim that they are breeding dogs that don’t conform to breed standard on purpose. They are intentionally breeding to a different standard so let them have their standard instead of keeping the waters muddy.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

That falls on folks doing research I made the same mistake I went to my first show got a copy of the standard, talked to man that knows a bit bout standard, and went off bout the pup of the litter that looked most like said standard. He became a champion but wasnt till after having him and people making coment bout him being blue that I studied and put in time to see the difference in the way he was bred and traditional stock.

Had I not put in at least enough effort to learn bout the standard, I would probably been embarassed awy from the ADBA as well. But I dont think it waould have been the ADBA fault. Their are traditional bred and working stock the look nothing like the standard as well, so I don't see how making a place for dogs that doesnt fit in the show ring would make a difference! Then they might as well make an extreme APBT class!?!?


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## jaceaa (Aug 20, 2012)

I agree that people need to do the research, but this is the general public we are talking about. Joe Shmo sees one breeder with a flashy web site, and professionally photographed and photo shopped dogs, and then someone who breeds quality APBT that doesn’t have a web site and flash and their dogs don’t look like an SUV with a tail they will think “you get what you pay for” In the case of the APBT and the American Bully that is the farthest thing from reality. I would be equally satisfied if the ADBA stopped registering them all together. They could go back into the pedigrees and determine the “corrupt” bloodlines. I just think they need to be their own breed or registered with the registries that recognize them. Maybe refusing to register those bloodlines is the only way to force those breeders to stop mislabeling their product.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

jaceaa said:


> I agree that people need to do the research, but this is the general public we are talking about. Joe Shmo sees one breeder with a flashy web site, and professionally photographed and photo shopped dogs, and then someone who breeds quality APBT that doesn't have a web site and flash and their dogs don't look like an SUV with a tail they will think "you get what you pay for" In the case of the APBT and the American Bully that is the farthest thing from reality. I would be equally satisfied if the ADBA stopped registering them all together. They could go back into the pedigrees and determine the "corrupt" bloodlines. I just think they need to be their own breed or registered with the registries that recognize them. Maybe refusing to register those bloodlines is the only way to force those breeders to stop mislabeling their product.


Yeah this to me would be better solution!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

No one said the bully dogs are one of the same as the APBT... All Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven..

The main point that should grow on people is there is no consistency to deem as their own


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Yep and I think the consistancy is the reason IMO they can't be their own breed. As the Bandogs to many differnet blends to cmake one standard! But all serve the purpose well!


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> Absolutely nothing new here, many of the same points I've made over and over are within the context of such.. though amusing that one registry of which function has also greatly left calling out another for lack of function..
> 
> However to be expected ..
> 
> Too tired to repeat everything I've said before but again nothing new, might as well copy and paste everything I said in that dax thread.


The article that I was more interested in is the one from page 9 from the recent Fall episode. A concerned Kennel, asking the #ADBA on their take of the UKC/ABKC/bully movement. I do not know if that was/is available to scan in or link to, but it would be nice to add to this thread for some of the responsible folks, that do not play the #horns.
No need to keep typing the same things over and over and over again, you can post a link to all your teachings and save us the stage presence, since everyone bows down to you.
Your presentation #lacks any structure to even begin with. 
Why post?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I will see if I can find it for ya McCoy.


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I saw this post earlier and have been thinking about it.

I might get some heat for this, but I don't really see how AmBullies can stake a claim to be registered with ADBA. I understand their argument about being APBT blood. That's fine with me.

BUT, I have a HUGE problem with them wanting to be allowed into the show ring. I think about any breed, and I think that it is disrespectful to want a non conforming dog to be allowed to show. And in my opinion that is what I see the AmBully community doing. If you had a Merle APBT or one with a corkscrew tail, even if they could trace their linage back to wolves I would not see it as a show quality dog, the same is true for any dog that is a result of it's breeding.

I know that there are kennels clubs that are lot more sever about upholding their breed standard to the point where they will not register a weirdo, or will sterilize the pup before sale, or cull the pup.

Human greed is nauseating. If you want a short fat healthy issue riddled bulldog go get yourself an English bulldog. They have most of the same qualities as AmBullies, (given they don't come in blue) and you CAN show them and have them registered internationally.

Edit: sorry for the rant. I get a little upset with people bastardizing a breed for the sake of $.

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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Katey said:


> I saw this post earlier and have been thinking about it.
> 
> I might get some heat for this, but I don't really see how AmBullies can stake a claim to be registered with ADBA. I understand their argument about being APBT blood. That's fine with me.
> 
> ...


That's just it. I don't think most American Bully folk (at least the ones who intentionally opted for a bully over an apbt knowingly) want to show as apbt. What this article is trying to say is that the bully isn't a breed but just poorly bred apbt.


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## Princesspaola21 (Oct 30, 2012)

Katey said:


> I saw this post earlier and have been thinking about it.
> 
> I might get some heat for this, but I don't really see how AmBullies can stake a claim to be registered with ADBA. I understand their argument about being APBT blood. That's fine with me.
> 
> ...


I think you read the story wrong thats not what's being said at all. English Bulldogs come in blue as well  I've seen several.

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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Princesspaola21 said:


> I think you read the story wrong thats not what's being said at all. English Bulldogs come in blue as well  I've seen several.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have honestly never seen a blue one... But the bulldog community in SA is rather small and elitist. Haha

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## Princesspaola21 (Oct 30, 2012)

Katey said:


> I have honestly never seen a blue one... But the bulldog community in SA is rather small and elitist. Haha
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 I Hadn't either until recently lol.

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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Carriana said:


> That's just it. I don't think most American Bully folk (at least the ones who intentionally opted for a bully over an apbt knowingly) want to show as apbt. What this article is trying to say is that the bully isn't a breed but just poorly bred apbt.


I will reread the article again in the morning. But I just don't understand why a person would opt for a dog that doesn't conform to the breed standard, and that has departed from its natural function.

Perhaps it would be easier if registered dogs of different breeds had been used in the "making" of the AmBully. That way it truly would be a new breed, like other breeds that have had APBT in their history.

I have a question though. If various APBT and AmStaff registries cut toes completely with all AmBullies and breeders there of, do you think it would then be possible for breeders with clear proof of lineage to petition for the registration of a new breed in a decade? Or do you think that in a decade the fad with have passed after AmBullies have been bred to the point of not being able to reproduce?

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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I dont thinks the breed will fade. But AS ADBA state until the Bully comunity openly admits the foundation stock that was used in creating the breed, they will not be treated any different. To the adba since not admitance of use of other liniage then that of the APBT then all they have done is alter and corupt the already exsisting breed.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Katey said:


> I will reread the article again in the morning. But I just don't understand why a person would opt for a dog that doesn't conform to the breed standard, and that has departed from its natural function.
> 
> Perhaps it would be easier if registered dogs of different breeds had been used in the "making" of the AmBully. That way it truly would be a new breed, like other breeds that have had APBT in their history.
> 
> ...


The AmStaff and APBT started out as the same stock without mixing in of new breeds. Do you take issue with the AmStaff's claim to be its own breed? AmStaffs also departed from original function. The whole purpose of the creation of the AmStaff was to disassociate with the "pit" portion of the dogs' history. Now they're mainly pretty show dogs. American Bullies are just yet another branch-off from the same family.

I personally own an American Bully that is registered as an American Bully with the ABKC (American Bully Kennel Club). I expect she will conform to the AmBully breed standards quite nicely therefore I don't expect her to conform to an APBT standard. As for why I chose an AmBully, it's because while I love and appreciate the APBT for what it is I am realistic about the time I personally have available to put into a dog. A high end APBT is more than likely to be high drive and very possibly DA. This isn't something that fit into my lifestyle currently as I work full time in addition to going to school full time. Bullies tend to be a little more laid back (they can be DA, which I recognize and am prepared for) but this was a better fit for what we were looking for.


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## Princesspaola21 (Oct 30, 2012)

Carriana said:


> The AmStaff and APBT started out as the same stock without mixing in of new breeds. Do you take issue with the AmStaff's claim to be its own breed? AmStaffs also departed from original function. The whole purpose of the creation of the AmStaff was to disassociate with the "pit" portion of the dogs' history. Now they're mainly pretty show dogs. American Bullies are just yet another branch-off from the same family.
> 
> I personally own an American Bully that is registered as an American Bully with the ABKC (American Bully Kennel Club). I expect she will conform to the AmBully breed standards quite nicely therefore I don't expect her to conform to an APBT standard. As for why I chose an AmBully, it's because while I love and appreciate the APBT for what it is I am realistic about the time I personally have available to put into a dog. A high end APBT is more than likely to be high drive and very possibly DA. This isn't something that fit into my lifestyle currently as I work full time in addition to going to school full time. Bullies tend to be a little more laid back (they can be DA, which I recognize and am prepared for) but this was a better fit for what we were looking for.


Good post!! I have 7 American Bullies. They are all registered as such and none of them look like English Bulldogs.

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## Coyne1981 (Mar 5, 2013)

Carriana said:


> That's just it. I don't think most American Bully folk (at least the ones who intentionally opted for a bully over an apbt knowingly) want to show as apbt. What this article is trying to say is that the bully isn't a breed but just poorly bred apbt.


You said it perfectly. I would never want to show as apbt. Or even call my dog an apbt.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

mccoypitbulls said:


> The article that I was more interested in is the one from page 9 from the recent Fall episode. A concerned Kennel, asking the #ADBA on their take of the UKC/ABKC/bully movement. I do not know if that was/is available to scan in or link to, but it would be nice to add to this thread for some of the responsible folks, that do not play the #horns.
> No need to keep typing the same things over and over and over again, you can post a link to all your teachings and save us the stage presence, since everyone bows down to you.
> Your presentation #lacks any structure to even begin with.
> Why post?


What stage presence? You make it such by commenting on mine and saying your piece when you could have easily pmed what you had to say or kept it on topic.

Guess you should say the same thing to Stan since he had a similar post since you want to call my comment such stage but you won't for obvious reasons.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Coyne1981 said:


> You said it perfectly. I would never want to show as apbt. Or even call my dog an apbt.


 Ok.........."bully" for you ( couldn't resist the pun) , the problem is that not all folks with bullies have your degree of ethics.

And part of the problem arrives when folks represent their " bullies" as something they aren't.

Try standing there with a nice 44 lb Alligator/Cardenas cross and having some jackass run his game on you about how his Gotti dog is a "real APBT" and your dog isn't.

Look , the dogs in general have *always* attracted a certain percentage of loudmouths pecker wavers. Sorry but that percentage is higher with the " bullies" than with the APBT , and it for damn certain is much more of a percentage than *performance* APBT circles where running your yap can get your card called.

This is quite likely an outgrowth of certain societal and cultural factors resident within said percentage of the bully crowd.

I was down in Denver recently ( yes I said Denver) and had a bit of a roundy round with a guy with a HHHUGGGGGEEEE blue , enough skin for six dogs and a bracephalic head , Blue that he was calling an APBT.

Now keep in mind that Denver has ' The Ban '- , and it's stood up in court. The we have the fact he's claiming that the dog weighs 150 lbs , Neopolitan Mastiff in the woodpile anyone?

And then there was the ' Whipped everything canine , equine , bovine or feather in a sixty trillion mile radius.

After a slew of nauseatingly tedious reiterations of that pecker waving I just looked at him and said " pick your dog up"........

" HUH?"

Lift your dog up ( keep in mind that the dog outweighed the clown himself).

" Uh I can't pick him up by myself "

That's what I thought.

Typically even ADBA or UKC novices know more about the breed , it's history , the dogs within said history , breeders and associated other subjects germane to the dogs than do quite a lot of longtime participants within the " Bully " crowd.

And the ones labeled as ' extreme ' etc. All I got to say is that if you are gonna make the claim that it's an APBT...............then be prepared for someone like myself or certain others here who are a bit blunt to ask you.........

How did ya take a perfectly useful breed and f*** it up so badly.

Welder or Surfer brought up a highly valid point within one of these threads , that being A I R.

As an extreme example , I wanna see a race between a " Dax" bloodline dog and an EB , I'll bet on which one will have a freaking coronary or bust a lung first.


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Princesspaola21 said:


> I think you read the story wrong thats not what's being said at all. English Bulldogs come in blue as well  I've seen several.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yup I agree and I know its sad to say this but extreme pockets and exotics are the ones that get all the HEAT for "having bulldog" in them and I follow a lot of bully beeders and the ones that are trying to get rich are the ones breeding these "English bulldogs", a good example is Carolina bully farms, they had some clean am bullies, then they went to extreme pockets (mo money )now there starting to bread exotics, and they said so themselves that they live off there dogs,they don't work just bread dogs..


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Carriana said:


> The AmStaff and APBT started out as the same stock without mixing in of new breeds. Do you take issue with the AmStaff's claim to be its own breed? AmStaffs also departed from original function. The whole purpose of the creation of the AmStaff was to disassociate with the "pit" portion of the dogs' history. Now they're mainly pretty show dogs. American Bullies are just yet another branch-off from the same family.
> 
> I personally own an American Bully that is registered as an American Bully with the ABKC (American Bully Kennel Club). I expect she will conform to the AmBully breed standards quite nicely therefore I don't expect her to conform to an APBT standard. As for why I chose an AmBully, it's because while I love and appreciate the APBT for what it is I am realistic about the time I personally have available to put into a dog. A high end APBT is more than likely to be high drive and very possibly DA. This isn't something that fit into my lifestyle currently as I work full time in addition to going to school full time. Bullies tend to be a little more laid back (they can be DA, which I recognize and am prepared for) but this was a better fit for what we were looking for.


 ya good post !


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Carriana said:


> The AmStaff and APBT started out as the same stock without mixing in of new breeds. Do you take issue with the AmStaff's claim to be its own breed? AmStaffs also departed from original function. The whole purpose of the creation of the AmStaff was to disassociate with the "pit" portion of the dogs' history. Now they're mainly pretty show dogs. American Bullies are just yet another branch-off from the same
> 
> The adba still allows regestration of am staff and doesn't consider it a hole differemt breed just forced to I se different name. Since they mever deviated from original breed stock. There fore they think of staff as they do bully bred away from functiona amd standard but same breed. Just poor examples. Not sure I agree 100% but it is very litteral way of looking at same ped make the breed. Function defines it...


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

I hear ya Rudy and I see your point. It seems by putting this out there the adba might be trying to "force" the bully community to admit to mixing in other breeds. Now I don't want to turn this into yet another discussion about the possible or probable breeds used in the American Bully. I do think that many of the more functional bullies in appearance are apbt and amstaff foundation only but we all know that there is a fair amount of breeders, especially in recent years, that have added a few other breeds in the mix.

To me there is an obvious difference in an amstaff and an adba apbt so I cannot say I agree with the adba on that front.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I think the point more so is that they are just refusing to see it as it own breed. I beleive function is more important but see business side sees the original studbook as what defines the breed. After all registrations are about thw studbooks or pedigrees.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> I think the point more so is that they are just refusing to see it as it own breed. I beleive function is more important but see business side sees the original studbook as what defines the breed. After all registrations are about thw studbooks or pedigrees.


 Disagree , what it's about in the end ( as regards) the various registries is the bottom line and the revenue involved.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Ues sir I agree that all registries are bout the money 100% and it been said time and time on this forum. But I think that this thread to me is less about the money and more about the odea of what it takes to make a see a hole new breed.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Yup...... it will take at least 15yrs of selective breeding to become a breed of its own. Like was stated twice already. Laymen and action men consider the AST and the APBT two different breeds. Genetically they are the same; work and heart defines them... No difference with the bully stuff as they are just "pitterstaffs" :hammer: pitterstaff?? who comes up with this stuff?? THEY'RE ALL staffordshires i.e. staffordshire bulldogs that is.. LOL See how confusing the names and the history of names for similar reasons today? People need to know DOGS and GENETICS before they make such bold statements. I've made some poor statements like most, before I was educated in my own work leading me to new information thats old information.


> AST formally known as APBT by the Staffordshire Club of America in a letter to colby.


 Well this bully craze is no different, they're a plush toy of the APBT. Breed an APBT to one and see the genetic dominance. As was said already, AST in the ADBA is an APBT .. the only thing they need to do is separate the big dogs JMO they need their own category more than bully type dogs. Like I said back in some early bully conversations I was involved in... St benedict had a couple of dogs that fit into this classic bully class so to speak; you gonna say his dogs aren't game? Bully really has no consistency or direction as a whole JMO its all on looks and hopefully nice dogs LOL


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> What stage presence? You make it such by commenting on mine and saying your piece when you could have easily pmed what you had to say or kept it on topic.
> 
> Guess you should say the same thing to Stan since he had a similar post since you want to call my comment such stage but you won't for obvious reasons.


I will call anything i like. If its a spade its a spade. Break it down a little for me would ya please. I am not that intelligent .:cheers:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

took me a minute to reply.. had to relocate my shoulder... pattin myself on the back.. :rofl: So instead of I told ya so, I'd like to say... Remember it; cause I said it! ..... 

I got jokes but seriously; this is a good point of the ADBA and really does pull in so many conversations we've had here before; Marty, Sadie, KM, others and myself have all made waves and wakes with our comments to the or about the bully stock and or world. Now its been clearly stated by the ADBA .. Bully is nothing more than a poorly bred APBT; I like to call em plush.... LOL


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Ok.........."bully" for you ( couldn't resist the pun) , the problem is that not all folks with bullies have your degree of ethics.
> 
> And part of the problem arrives when folks represent their " bullies" as something they aren't.
> 
> ...


Gotta spread the love but ya get the idea. Although me and stan just had a few brief pms about the ancestral nature of certain dogs to the apbt and how they're looked down upon now by "purists"(none of that pertaining to bullys but to certain mastiff type bulldogs). Now would those be considered poorly bred apbt or trying to rekindle what the true apbt came from?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

To ABDA in the business sense they are bred away from standard. To those who know better mutts. Guess it depend witch side your looking at it from.?.?


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Gotta spread the love but ya get the idea. Although me and stan just had a few brief pms about the ancestral nature of certain dogs to the apbt and how they're looked down upon now by "purists"(none of that pertaining to bullys but to certain mastiff type bulldogs). Now would those be considered poorly bred apbt or trying to rekindle what the true apbt came from?


 Oh boy , here we go. " The Mollosser Factor" , there is little doubt that the original working EBs bred across various Terriers to get the Bull-n-Terrier crosses that became the APBT were basically a working Mollosser breed along with the corollary factor that they were phenotypically one hell of a lot different than todays EB.

Some modern EB folks still tell the one about the bracephalic modern head being " to hold on to the bull and breathe better , hell they can't breathe laying on the floor chewing up the remote.

And now we've got Extreme Bullies that are much the same. In both cases a mere caricature of the functional breed forming a base part of the genetic structure.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Rudy4747 said:


> To ABDA in the business sense they are bred away from standard. To those who know better mutts. Guess it depend witch side your looking at it from.?.?


So bullies are a breed but dogs that pre date your apbt is a mutt. Thats exactly what was talked about in the pms. You wont like what got said....


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Oh boy , here we go. " The Mollosser Factor" , there is little doubt that the original working EBs bred across various Terriers to get the Bull-n-Terrier crosses that became the APBT were basically a working Mollosser breed along with the corollary factor that they were phenotypically one hell of a lot different than todays EB.
> 
> Some modern EB folks still tell the one about the bracephalic modern head being " to hold on to the bull and breathe better , hell they can't breathe laying on the floor chewing up the remote.
> 
> And now we've got Extreme Bullies that are much the same. In both cases a mere caricature of the functional breed forming a base part of the genetic structure.


No its common knowledge the smashed face from show breeding (once again evident with the variants between ast, and apbts).


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Just Tap Pits said:


> No its common knowledge the smashed face from show breeding (once again evident with the variants between ast, and apbts).


 You'd be surprised , you're giving the public much more credit than due , lotsa folks still believe such myths.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

OldDog said:


> You'd be surprised , you're giving the public much more credit than due , lotsa folks still believe such myths.


I guess I forget just how many specials we have out there. I do tend to forget what I deem common knowledge other cant grasp (such as the before mentioned pms. Though we had 1 group of dogs in convo the very next comment was exactly what was talked about.)


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Just Tap Pits said:


> So bullies are a breed but dogs that pre date your apbt is a mutt. Thats exactly what was talked about in the pms. You wont like what got said....


No acorrding to my opinion and and that of this article from the ADBA Bully is not a breed just bred from function and from.

You can le me know what was said in PM or just hint at it and hide from true discution...


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Pretty much that history needs to be learned and dots connected. Trying to establish the pre cursor to the apbt doesnt make the dogs mutts, and respect should be given to an extent. Without dogs similar to high end chevy or camelot dogs (the few and far between there are) therw would be no apbt. they're one of the examples of what the apbt came from. They arent a new breed they're just a throwback of dogs of old.

The convo revolved around the word mutt and upturned noses to those dogs.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Gotta spread the love but ya get the idea. Although me and stan just had a few brief pms about the ancestral nature of certain dogs to the apbt and how they're looked down upon now by "purists"(none of that pertaining to bullys but to certain mastiff type bulldogs). Now would those be considered poorly bred apbt or trying to rekindle what the true apbt came from?





Just Tap Pits said:


> So bullies are a breed but dogs that pre date your apbt is a mutt. Thats exactly what was talked about in the pms. You wont like what got said....


You cannot recreate a dog that no longer exists by mixing two present day breeds and calling it a throwback. When you mix you get mutts. Even if the mix is for working purposes it is still a mix. That's not bashing, just fact.

Haven't you yourself referred to your dogs as mutts? Why is it okay when you do it but not when someone else does? How do you know the intent that's behind it since you can't infer tone or emotion from written words on a screen?



Just Tap Pits said:


> Pretty much that history needs to be learned and dots connected. Trying to establish the pre cursor to the apbt doesnt make the dogs mutts, and respect should be given to an extent. Without dogs similar to high end chevy or camelot dogs (the few and far between there are) therw would be no apbt. they're one of the examples of what the apbt came from. They arent a new breed they're just a throwback of dogs of old.
> 
> The convo revolved around the word mutt and upturned noses to those dogs.


And this is brought up on yet another bully thread why? If you feel that people need to be informed about something then inform them in a different thread specific to that topic. Don't make snide comments about people's lack of knowledge about something that you and primarily you have a vested interest in. Why should anyone take an special interest to what is in your yard?

People step up in defense of bullies because there's a lot of bully owners on here who are proud of what they own. Nothing wrong with that. You don't see me waltzing into a thread on gamebred dogs and asking someone their opinion on my bully do you? Quit baiting people into giving opinions on your yard and then getting offended when you don't like what you hear. You don't want to hear to answer then don't ask the question.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Carriana said:


> You cannot recreate a dog that no longer exists by mixing two present day breeds and calling it a throwback. When you mix you get mutts. Even if the mix is for working purposes it is still a mix. That's not bashing, just fact.
> 
> Haven't you yourself referred to your dogs as mutts? Why is it okay when you do it but not when someone else does? How do you know the intent that's behind it since you can't infer tone or emotion from written words on a screen?
> 
> ...


No1 baited anyone it carried alomg with the tempo of convorsation between olddog, rudy, km, and fh. Rudy spun it. No1 has anything to compare to my yard so why would I care about anyones opinion of my yard? When high quality breeders in my subcategories show up (and dont get chased off) ill care what ppl think.

And please inlighten me, if mix hreeding makes mutts what are bullies?


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> Yup...... it will take at least 15yrs of selective breeding to become a breed of its own. Like was stated twice already. Laymen and action men consider the AST and the APBT two different breeds. Genetically they are the same; work and heart defines them... No difference with the bully stuff as they are just "pitterstaffs" :hammer: pitterstaff?? who comes up with this stuff?? THEY'RE ALL staffordshires i.e. staffordshire bulldogs that is.. LOL See how confusing the names and the history of names for similar reasons today? People need to know DOGS and GENETICS before they make such bold statements. I've made some poor statements like most, before I was educated in my own work leading me to new information thats old information. Well this bully craze is no different, they're a plush toy of the APBT. Breed an APBT to one and see the genetic dominance. As was said already, AST in the ADBA is an APBT .. the only thing they need to do is separate the big dogs JMO they need their own category more than bully type dogs. Like I said back in some early bully conversations I was involved in... St benedict had a couple of dogs that fit into this classic bully class so to speak; you gonna say his dogs aren't game? Bully really has no consistency or direction as a whole JMO its all on looks and hopefully nice dogs LOL


When would you say the bullies started officially? The RE dogs have been around at least that long haven't they? Since 1990 according to the ABKC website and their own registry established in 2004. So that's 24 years of selective breeding and nearly 10 years under their own registry.

There's a mess of crap dogs breeding under the bully label and that certainly detracts from the breed's reputation as a whole and I definitely think that overshadows those breeding clean, consistent dogs that do conform to breed type and breed true. Does that mean that all bullies should be labeled as inconsistent garbage with no direction? Imo no. Just like apbt folk can't help what's being done on any other 's yard and the quality of stock that is being used.

Then there are the fad breeders who are in the forefront making complete assess of themselves and making a lot of money doing it. This is what gets put on blast on the bashing boards and unfortunately what most people think of when they think of the American Bully because it's the most visible.

As for apbt and amstaff being genetically the same I have a question. How much interbreeding has been done between the two since the establishment of the amstaff? If it's limited then you'd have enough genetic drift for allele frequencies to be different between the two making them closely related but not the same, right? That would account for the subtle phenotypic differences that fanciers of either breed are able to identify. To me an AKC AmStaff is a far cry from an ADBA APBT. Both beautiful animals in their own right but definitely different!

PS I love my squishy plush bully up:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Carriana said:


> When would you say the bullies started officially? The RE dogs have been around at least that long haven't they? Since 1990 according to the ABKC website and their own registry established in 2004. So that's 24 years of selective breeding and nearly 10 years under their own registry.
> 
> There's a mess of crap dogs breeding under the bully label and that certainly detracts from the breed's reputation as a whole and I definitely think that overshadows those breeding clean, consistent dogs that do conform to breed type and breed true. Does that mean that all bullies should be labeled as inconsistent garbage with no direction? Imo no. Just like apbt folk can't help what's being done on any other 's yard and the quality of stock that is being used.
> 
> ...


..
no not selectively... LOL maybe by clueless terms however there is more diversity among the bully stock alone. ... Then you refuse to see the facts from the DNA tests nor the ADBA which may know a thing or two more about bulldogs than you presume to. Yes every registry is out to make some money, thus business.. however the fact is the AST come from the APBT and is still a kickdown or offshoot of the APBT (AKC was game dogs bred pretty and then bred to be pretty and disassociate with the pit) Genetically the same. If you bred for the [] it would shape your dog and you would get a bulldog.. don't believe me? Thats fine, look at the Tosa. Still fought today in Japan as is the APBT both in their own right. The tosa is still very bulldog or APBT like when you look at the small weights and some of the big ones. Fighting bulldog. THere are AKC Tacoma dogs that are ADBA as well, They aint APBTs??? LOL right...

SBT, APBT, AST are all genetically the same... Boston Terrier, Bull Terrier, English Bulldog, American Bulldog, curs, etc.. are off shoots. 
The APBT is the original source as the bulldog was thrown into the pit and for ever dubbed pit bull. Only one is still true today. Would a Bully do well in an ADBA show? NOPE but a balanced RE/Whopper dog might and DO! Check the ADBA website many of their current photos for good K9 citizen, weight pull etc are just that. SO .

Like I said .. Breed a APBT to a bully what is it? Same thing you get when you breed an APBT to an AST. .. SOME AST are still APBT and some APBT qualify as AST. NOW BULLY... For the last 20yrs its been getting sloppier and sloppier, it was clean when it first hit with wilsons stuff and really gaff already had the type down. Gaff known by many to be AST at that time but registered APBTs 

I like some of the folks in the ABKC, however!! They registered all kinds of slop and have as much non consistency as a whole as the whole movement. NOW that being said they do have some who know what they're doin and you can count them on one hand. THey should get involved with the UKC and set the standard for class there. That would help get the UKC back on track of having working dogs as their APBTs not ASTs. The only difference is what they're bred to do. Work and look pretty doin it, or look pretty and can't work a lick. There are quite a few APBTs registered as AKC ASTs .. Tacoma, Colby, Going Light, Jimmy Boots, BlackJack etc.. All were game lines registered dually and kept as so by their fanciers.

Rev. H. HEINZL: When I start breedin for looks might as well call em AST's because ASTs they'll surely be..

There is only one true bulldog and they register them as APBTs; however there are other bulldogs of direct relation.

When I say breeding 15yrs to selective breeding I mean just that. I pulled the real bulldog of antiquity and the old world right out of the APBT. Only one other breeder has done that and he's 30yrs my elder damn near. SELECTIVE breeding .. is more than what I see among most of all of the proverbial "you". Just more of the same............... nuttin new. ..

Good for you, you should be proud of your plush lil bulldogs; I've been known to keep a cur around they're generally great with folks and kids. So I aint knockin you... (if a bulldog aint game he's a cur, thats history and genetics and how you differentiate between bulldogs)

So in my mind the ADBA has the correct way of goin about it, the UKC is in a good spot to make some money off of it. And all of us die hards that insist the Bullies aren't APBTs can just stuff it .. and be okay with the fact that is hard to swallow for both parties APBT or Bully. - _The Bully is genetically the same (which us working dog folks cringe at the thought) ; the bully is a poorly bred APBT.(bully folk cringe at that thought).. 
THATS how you know its truth.. because its singular and hard for everyone to swallow. _ 
I've said it alot in genetic conversations without realizing it. So many times I even prove myself wrong. But thats the facts.. Said in crayon ^^^^^^^^^^


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Just Tap Pits said:


> No1 baited anyone it carried alomg with the tempo of convorsation between olddog, rudy, km, and fh. Rudy spun it. No1 has anything to compare to my yard so why would I care about anyones opinion of my yard? When high quality breeders in my subcategories show up (and dont get chased off) ill care what ppl think.
> 
> And please inlighten me, if mix hreeding makes mutts what are bullies?


No onw said any thing bout you yard. You bring it in. It is their balck and whit no foundation or purpose it mutt. If *beleived* to be from apbt stock just doesn't conform.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> ..
> no not selectively... LOL maybe by clueless terms however there is more diversity among the bully stock alone. ... Then you refuse to see the facts from the DNA tests nor the ADBA which may know a thing or two more about bulldogs than you presume to. Yes every registry is out to make some money, thus business.. however the fact is the AST come from the APBT and is still a kickdown or offshoot of the APBT (AKC was game dogs bred pretty and then bred to be pretty and disassociate with the pit) Genetically the same. If you bred for the [] it would shape your dog and you would get a bulldog.. don't believe me? Thats fine, look at the Tosa. Still fought today in Japan as is the APBT both in their own right. The tosa is still very bulldog or APBT like when you look at the small weights and some of the big ones. Fighting bulldog. THere are AKC Tacoma dogs that are ADBA as well, They aint APBTs??? LOL right...
> 
> SBT, APBT, AST are all genetically the same... Boston Terrier, Bull Terrier, English Bulldog, American Bulldog, curs, etc.. are off shoots.
> ...


Thanks Stan. So not _all_ ASTs and APBTs are in separate breeding pools. That makes more sense why one would consider them essentially the same. There is so much diversity among bulldogs its difficult not to want to put a label on each and every distinct "type" (for lack of a better word) and call them all their own breed.

I'm fascinated by genetics and have just started to skim the surface of the information that is out there.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Princesspaola21 said:


> Good post!! I have 7 American Bullies. They are all registered as such and none of them look like English Bulldogs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yupp. I have 13 Am Bullies here, 3 of which are CHs, and all but two are ABKC registered only.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Carriana said:


> The AmStaff and APBT started out as the same stock without mixing in of new breeds. Do you take issue with the AmStaff's claim to be its own breed? AmStaffs also departed from original function. The whole purpose of the creation of the AmStaff was to disassociate with the "pit" portion of the dogs' history. Now they're mainly pretty show dogs. American Bullies are just yet another branch-off from the same family.
> 
> I personally own an American Bully that is registered as an American Bully with the ABKC (American Bully Kennel Club). I expect she will conform to the AmBully breed standards quite nicely therefore I don't expect her to conform to an APBT standard.* As for why I chose an AmBully, it's because while I love and appreciate the APBT for what it is I am realistic about the time I personally have available to put into a dog. A high end APBT is more than likely to be high drive and very possibly DA. This isn't something that fit into my lifestyle currently as I work full time in addition to going to school full time. Bullies tend to be a little more laid back (they can be DA, which I recognize and am prepared for) but this was a better fit for what we were looking for.*


Agreed, Carrie. My first love was APBTs but now that I have a family American Bullies are more suitable for my lifestyle. That being said my yard is still pretty hot. A lot of bully owners have a "pack" mentality but we don't do that at our house. I'll only let two dogs out at a time, 1 male and 1 female and some can only be in the yard by themselves... Pretty much all my females hate each other and same goes for most my males. Too many bully owners have yard accidents because they don't know anything about DA and refuse to believe it exists in these dogs.

As far as the Am Bully being a breed, I consider it is. Was it done the way it was supposed to be done- no- but the purpose of Razors Edge at its inception wasn't to create the American Bully. It was a kennel that showed UKC and the main gene pool was Staff and APBT out of Cloverhill and Kimmar kennels.

The AST in itself is a breed that was created by adding no other blood other than APBT blood since its inception, but people will argue that they look distinctly different from an APBT and that could also be said for American Bullies that have nothing other than UKC or ADBA dogs behind them. APBTs were not bred for looks and there is wide spectrum of looks between UKC and ADBA dogs- same dog but one conforms to a working "type" and the other a show "type."

The American Bully has been bred in a totally different direction from UKC and ADBA dogs and when it comes to breeding a dog away from its original purpose and function it changes the dog and should be considered something else, I've heard that on this board for years now.

The American Bully is far more consistent than most people give it credit for. Yes, there are 5 varieties but only 1 standard with amendments made for height, bone, and substance.

Dave Wilson didn't know that the Bully World would be as big as it is today when he created the ABKC in 2004. It started as basically backyard BBQs where people could enjoy their type of dogs and has grown into a reputable registry that has expanded all over the World. Over the years it has tightened up on rules and regulations regarding registrations and cleaning house of corrupt and overall shitty judges. They have continuing training for judges and are working toward getting everybody on the same page. It has come a LONG way as the only qualification in the beginning was that you were friends with Dave or somebody else.

I digress.... Anyway, some people think it is a breed and some don't. It doesn't really matter to me. I do not have any desire for the ADBA to recognize the American Bully and I find it amusing that the UKC decided to recognize it. My dogs have a registry and the ABKC isn't going no where.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

the ABKC popped up cause nobody would recognize the bully as their own breed... Now UKC will and theyre the better registry to clean all that mess up with. 

A separate breed by your opinion, however.... not by the opinion of DNA  you can't beat genetics with opinion. 

DA in Bullys is like DA in Bostons; serious enough in your own yard but it aint DA from a working bulldog I can promise ya. 

If the AST come from the APBT and the BULLY come from the APBT X AST then... genetically you have two bulldog strains down from APBT bred to be show and some to be plush. 

You rub shoulders with the few people count em on one hand that have good balanced stock. They are NOT the masses, 5 classes for one breed of dog just adds to the confusion. Nows the chance for all that to get cleaned up. JMO UKC could use the help. ABKC is all about pride and money invested at this point. I can remember when Ya'll griped cause you couldn't show your bully and get merit... BAM.. here comes the ABKC ... Well now the proverbial yall made enough wake with making money that the UKC wants to add the type. Perfect timing to clean up both UKC apbt stock and the over all bully world. ABKC up and ups should sit down with UKC and derive a mutual agreement to pull together.. JMO the only way for balance. 

Not consistent as you like to think, like I said in your few groups of folks, but the masses.. Have unhealthy and poorly bred dogs of no consistency. 

I was one of those that SWORE up and down they should be in their own registry... However I was also saying they're ALL BULLDOGS genetically.. re read that last post. You cannot argue with genetics. IF Bully folks insist on building their breed they are gonna have to go with the UKC to help differentiate Bully from APBT. Stickin with ABKC is not going to do anything but add more of the same. 

ADBA tackles this issue in the most honest way.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> the ABKC popped up cause nobody would recognize the bully as their own breed... Now UKC will and theyre the better registry to clean all that mess up with.
> 
> A separate breed by your opinion, however.... not by the opinion of DNA  you can't beat genetics with opinion.
> 
> ...


Ah, we will just have to agree to disagree, Stan. Y'all have stated your opinions, I have stated mine. Everybody makes good points. Everybody do with their dogs as they please. Register UKC, don't register UKC; hate American Bullies, love American Bullies- I don't care.

I always love talking dogs with you but I'm so over debates about the American Bully being accepted by other registries. LOL It has filled a big portion of my life for the last 3 months. I will never support the UKC in regards to my dogs.

MWAH! Always love reading your posts man.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Ok if they have the same DNA they would be able to be isolated when being tested. How is it possible to isolate the DNA from the AST, which they have done, but been unable to isolate it from the APBT if they are the same genetically? I don't think they are the same or else they would be able to yet for APBT. They started out the same but since all dogs vary by so little I don't think its fair To say genetically they are the same as each but not the same as say a poodle when the make up I the genome for the APBT is different than the AST. Or do you just think they are lying about everything and neither he AST or the APBT genome has been decoded?

Sent from Petguide.com App


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

ames said:


> Ok if they have the same DNA they would be able to be isolated when being tested. How is it possible to isolate the DNA from the AST, which they have done, but been unable to isolate it from the APBT if they are the same genetically? I don't think they are the same or else they would be able to yet for APBT. They started out the same but since all dogs vary by so little I don't think its fair To say genetically they are the same as each but not the same as say a poodle when the make up I the genome for the APBT is different than the AST. Or do you just think they are lying about everything and neither he AST or the APBT genome has been decoded?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


My personal opinion, I don't think they've yet to be able to decode the genome for an individual breed, and that the DNA testing as it is, is just a ploy to market more money. If they had been able to successfully decode individual breed DNA, then there would be DNA testing available for each breed (not to be confused with DNA profiling, which is only available through certain registries to prove the dogs in the pedigree are true and correct on the registration papers). Perfect example, the video you posted in another thread of Dawn from Chako doing a DNA test on her dog, and the results stating he's predominantly Border Collie, then Boston Terrier, with some bulldog at the bottom of the list. There's your proof/answer right there.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

ames said:


> Ok if they have the same DNA they would be able to be isolated when being tested. How is it possible to isolate the DNA from the AST, which they have done, but been unable to isolate it from the APBT if they are the same genetically? I don't think they are the same or else they would be able to yet for APBT. They started out the same but since all dogs vary by so little I don't think its fair To say genetically they are the same as each but not the same as say a poodle when the make up I the genome for the APBT is different than the AST. Or do you just think they are lying about everything and neither he AST or the APBT genome has been decoded?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


 While it is theoretically possible that every single breed might have a unique DNA sequence somewhere in its genome, it will be a very long time before genetic researchers have the time or the money to pursue that kind of trivia. 



At present it is difficult to distinguish pure wolf from wolf-hybrid from dog. Distinguishing one breed from another is even more difficult. It is just a marketing ploy, as Bev said.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Mars Veterinary Wisdom Panel DNA Testing Pit Bulls APBT
Read^^^^

At this time it is not hard to tell a wolf dog from a wolf; thats where I started back 20yrs ago, grew up in it. They do DNA tests right now to conduct and see where coyotes and wolves are crossbreeding as well as dogs.

The chow is one of the oldest DOGS actual dog, and its almost PURE WOLF on the DNA scale... I loved the old school dogs that died out in the 80s them chows were workers, most of the stuff now is plush foo foos..

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/64690-canine-dna-varification.html

people don't understand or put together that the boston terrier and staffordshire terrier both are APBT, before they crossed in the french bulldog the boston bull terrier was a small lil game dog derived in boston no less. Some went south and were precurser to white bulldogs and otto dogs of the south. The pit dogs were put in and bred in with APBT no matter Boston, SBT, I.staff, etc... show wise they were kept seperate and named differently. Genetically they're the same and the markers are just a bulldog mutation and signature marker. Even the Boxer, which was bred for looks but when arrived in this country in the late 1800s and early 1900s were the same dog as what we call APBT today. The boxer is older than the english bulldog and many markers on the DNA scale say boxer are as bulldog as the APBT, the boxer is the english adopted German Fighting bulldog often called Kempfer Hunds from the Bullenbisers. The APBT is that dog still today while the english bastardize boxer looks like what it does. Thats PAPER registry breed organizing for money and show.

Yes we agree on many levels, and your one of few people who know good bully stock at all. As far as what the ADBA is saying is genetically true. What the UKC is doing is what the AKC does as well, categorize differences.. Bull Terrier, miniature bull terrier .. etc.. ADBA is a working dog registry. Work defines the dog bulldog, sled dog, herder, etc... With other registries breed is all about paper and very lil about genetics. ABKC just said hey we're establishing a new breed (bulldog type) since ADBA and UKC didn't wanna hear it. Now all that money and advertising has paid off; you got UKCs attention, its a much older and more respected registry and if ya'll could see it, it be a chance to clean up the UKC stock and the WHOLE bully world. Imagine the fine bully specimens ya'll could lock down as the ONLY Bully .. The ABKC is in place to clean it up before they come back to the UKC as many have come from the UKC, and some from ADBA. Just how I see it. But Im a family breeder and honor the core genetics of the bulldog. Which is why its no thing for me to have to swallow the fact that the ADBA states the bully is genetically the same.. cause it is. WORKING wise not the same. Like brothers ones a couch potato mammas boy, and the other is a lb for lb middle heavy weight CH..


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/pit-bulletin-legal-news/2012/07/25/canine-dna--ready-for-prime-time. 
Listen ^^^^
Dr Kris explains the difference between the mars wisdom panel saliva test and others.

Chako rescue just did the saliva Bev. It's the blood base tests I am referring too not that money grubbing fake saliva sent in ones. Not many offer it. It was developed around 2009 I think dr kris Irizzary discusses in depth on the show about 30 minutes in. Saliva if you have more than one dog now you have multiple dogs DNA so even if they could it wouldn't be reliable. They don't lay claim the saliva as Stan posted the link referencing.

After you listen come back because I can't explain it as well as the doctor obviously. Dogs in general are DOG not any breed. That is the mixed breed test they responded too and pit bulls aren't alone in that as you explained. Many dogs come back in the lowest way to test is my understanding.

This is the genetics show starts again around 30 minute mark. If your interested in that one. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/pit-bu...netics-with-geneticist-dr-kristopher-irizzary

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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Listening and will come back when I'm done.

ETA: Okay, I listened, and in both interviews I hear a lot of the same analogies like: retrievers retrieve, pointers point.. but behavior does not define breed. That, in my opinion, is a contradiction in and of itself. Also, Dr. Irrezary (sp?) stated himself, that as of the time of the interview, they were not yet able to identify a specific genome to isolate and determine that the subject being tested is a dog of a specific breed. So, therefore; DNA cannot determine a specific breed. The testing that Chako did is only providing testing for approx 150 breeds (if I remember correctly what he said), and if you have a dog that has something mixed in that they can't test for because they don't have the markers for it yet identified, then the dog's result will come back as not being that breed, or incorrectly identified. 

That was the gist of what I got out of both of those interviews. If I interpreted it incorrectly, then someone else who has listened, please correct me. *Disclaimer: Mind you, I was cooking dinner and dealing with children while trying to listen to these interviews so I may have missed a vital piece of information somewhere in the two.*


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

ThaLadyPit said:


> Listening and will come back when I'm done.
> 
> ETA: Okay, I listened, and in both interviews I hear a lot of the same analogies like: retrievers retrieve, pointers point.. but behavior does not define breed. That, in my opinion, is a contradiction in and of itself. Also, Dr. Irrezary (sp?) stated himself, that as of the time of the interview, they were not yet able to identify a specific genome to isolate and determine that the subject being tested is a dog of a specific breed. So, therefore; DNA cannot determine a specific breed. The testing that Chako did is only providing testing for approx 150 breeds (if I remember correctly what he said), and if you have a dog that has something mixed in that they can't test for because they don't have the markers for it yet identified, then the dog's result will come back as not being that breed, or incorrectly identified.
> 
> That was the gist of what I got out of both of those interviews. If I interpreted it incorrectly, then someone else who has listened, please correct me. *Disclaimer: Mind you, I was cooking dinner and dealing with children while trying to listen to these interviews so I may have missed a vital piece of information somewhere in the two.*


Hahaha that can be trouble  yeah that was mentioned but it was also stressed how some breeds are easier to map than others and easier to identify that others. I will re listen again (been a couple months lol) but why I remember is blood is the way to go and not every breed is mapped but some are and because of copy write protection not many are public at this time.

Doesn't really fit for the op of the thread just thought it was interesting when it was mentioned they are the same. If they were the same they would already be mapped is how was understanding but I have never studied genetics. Honestly trying to understand not argue or disagree.

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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

ames said:


> Hahaha that can be trouble  yeah that was mentioned but it was also stressed how some breeds are easier to map than others and easier to identify that others. I will re listen again (been a couple months lol) but why I remember is blood is the way to go and not every breed is mapped but some are and because of copy write protection not many are public at this time.
> 
> Doesn't really fit for the op of the thread just thought it was interesting when it was mentioned they are the same. If they were the same they would already be mapped is how was understanding but I have never studied genetics. Honestly trying to understand not argue or disagree.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I get what you're saying... if they've already mapped the AST, and concluding the AST is genetically the same as the APBT, then the APBT should hit the radar when DNA tested, right!?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Good post ames!!! .. 

Its all relative.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

ThaLadyPit said:


> I get what you're saying... if they've already mapped the AST, and concluding the AST is genetically the same as the APBT, then the APBT should hit the radar when DNA tested, right!?


Exactly what I was meaning. or what I took from it anyway. So far they have 250 mapped, if they were the same it would be a none issue. Maybe it because to me some look so different its had to think that they are the same genetically.


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Pretty much that history needs to be learned and dots connected. Trying to establish the pre cursor to the apbt doesnt make the dogs mutts, and respect should be given to an extent. Without dogs similar to high end chevy or camelot dogs (the few and far between there are) therw would be no apbt. they're one of the examples of what the apbt came from. They arent a new breed they're just a throwback of dogs of old.
> 
> The convo revolved around the word mutt and upturned noses to those dogs.


Are you serious? now the apbt came from larger dogs such as those mentioned - thats too funny ..very misleading if you ask me... You are going to put chevy, camelot into the same boat as a performance dog??. In that case i have never seen one big dog that could compare to a true bred apbt. Maybe i need to go to a weight pull besides the local ones. That was a slight humor. Are there any videos of one grabbing a bite work dummy and literally acting as a 100lb counterweight with momentum to pull the dummy down?. This is going a little over board here man -?? What about catching a hog?? But I have my beliefs just like anyone else. Mayby I have just not seen the quality of animal you describe, well one with true drive like a well bred apbt.
There are crosses that were made to establish that much mass, that is a fact. Quit misleading folks to believe otherwise--it is simply foolish to believe. The old mastifs and such were large, not a question, but the old world bulldogs were not commonly over 50, but history of the pedigrees can teach us that bigger dogs did happen but not to the scale of which you we are talking here.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

mccoypitbulls said:


> Are you serious? You are going to put chevy, camelot into the same boat as a performance dog??. In that case i have never seen one big dog that could compare to a true bred apbt. Maybe i need to go to a weight pull besides the local ones. That was a slight humor. Are there any videos of one grabbing a bite work dummy and literally acting as a 100lb counterweight with momentum to pull the dummy down?. This is going a little over board here man -?? What about catching a hog?? But I have my beliefs just like anyone else. Mayby I have just not seen the quality of animal you describe, well one with true drive like a well bred apbt.
> There are crosses that were made to establish that much mass, that is a fact. Quit misleading folks to believe otherwise--it is simply foolish to believe. The old mastifs and such were large, not a question, but the old world bulldogs were not commonly over 50, but history of the pedigrees can teach us that bigger dogs did happen but not to the scale of which you we are talking here.


Whatever u say..... is this like the dog food jealousy thing all over again? Just look up camelots king. Jack ellis had him. Level 3 guardian dog. But hey ya know.... u aint got 1(or dont feed it) so it must be subpar.... what was it jake told u about "flex" standing in my front yard???? I thought so...... check out team no fear and "osa" pedigree and accomplishments... rocket fire and jack boots were winners(theyre camelot), theres a 2x chevy adba confo champ (yeah even can confo out). Theres a couple outits down south(one of whish being southern inferno) use(or did use) kgb(if u dnt know kgb comel9t should never leave ur lips) xs to hunt hogs. It is what it is. U told me sitting on ur couch u have no idea about the big dogs... so which is it????

I said they were mastiff crosses (good try though), also if you knew any of the true history behind the apbt they originated from dogs well over 50lbs(ask fh he'll explain it better than I can). Only person misleading ppl is you. I suggest next time you do one of your edit happy, full moon, self loathing, panic attacks and wanna argue you pick a different target.. Not that I expect this post to last long....


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

mccoypitbulls said:


> Are you serious? You are going to put chevy, camelot into the same boat as a performance dog??. In that case i have never seen one big dog that could compare to a true bred apbt. Maybe i need to go to a weight pull besides the local ones. That was a slight humor. Are there any videos of one grabbing a bite work dummy and literally acting as a 100lb counterweight with momentum to pull the dummy down?. This is going a little over board here man -?? What about catching a hog?? But I have my beliefs just like anyone else. Mayby I have just not seen the quality of animal you describe, well one with true drive like a well bred apbt.
> There are crosses that were made to establish that much mass, that is a fact. Quit misleading folks to believe otherwise--it is simply foolish to believe. The old mastifs and such were large, not a question, but the old world bulldogs were not commonly over 50, but history of the pedigrees can teach us that bigger dogs did happen but not to the scale of which you we are talking here.


Camolot and the swogger dogs JTP mentioned are not in the same boat as whopper dogs. The Swogger or DZ dogs along with traditional camolot don't have the mastiff blood like the Whopper Chevy dogs. So their for most of them I would consider working staff... I guess in that state the ADBA considers them part of the original gene pool so most would fall to the not to standard side but I have seen some nice ones.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Rudy4747 said:


> Camolot and the swogger dogs JTP mentioned are not in the same boat as whopper dogs. The Swogger or DZ dogs along with traditional camolot don't have the mastiff blood like the Whopper Chevy dogs. So their for most of them I would consider working staff... I guess in that state the ADBA considers them part of the original gene pool so most would fall to the not to standard side but I have seen some nice ones.


I agree to an extent.... kgb had to have some sort of paper hanging I believe. So boots would be influxed with something.

The king dog I mentioned was a sonia production (enough said).

That osa dog is chevy and iron cross on top (cant remember the bottom but I think it was camelot).

As with every dog and breed the papers dont make the dogs the dogs make the papers.

Also on paper most og camelot goes back to ofrn. Is ofrn "working staff". I was always under the impression they were(alomg with colby) the original apbts.

The DZ dogs confuse me and I dnt have enough info on them to debate. I do know they produce 70lbs+ dogs somewhat regularly but are supposed to be pure with no mixing at all.


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I am been trying to find the SAfrican APBT group's stance on ABs and ASTs and APBTs, and it seems that over here everything that comes from pit fighting history is called a Pit Bull. (With the exception of SBTs)

I have been doing a lot of picture searching and comparing. and imo some of the ABs that are out there look a lot like SBT's just possible a little taller. if the SBT and APBT all came from the same place then I think I agree with the ADBA that the AB is a poorly bred APBT. But I think that for the AB to be "legitimized" (for lack of a better word) I think that the ABKC should help the UKC. Imo if a universal standard is agreed upon, and the "variety" reduced within the breed, then it will do a great deal to weed out the weird back yard bred dogs. 

from the pictures I have seen, I quite like the look of the classic AB. They look a bit like a mash up of a SBT and a AST. I would like to see those dogs canonized into the UKC, and the frog looking dogs deemed corrupt.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Katey said:


> I am been trying to find the SAfrican APBT group's stance on ABs and ASTs and APBTs, and it seems that over here everything that comes from pit fighting history is called a Pit Bull. (With the exception of SBTs)
> 
> I have been doing a lot of picture searching and comparing. and imo some of the ABs that are out there look a lot like SBT's just possible a little taller. if the SBT and APBT all came from the same place then I think I agree with the ADBA that the AB is a poorly bred APBT. But I think that for the AB to be "legitimized" (for lack of a better word) I think that the ABKC should help the UKC. Imo if a universal standard is agreed upon, and the "variety" reduced within the breed, then it will do a great deal to weed out the weird back yard bred dogs.
> 
> from the pictures I have seen, I quite like the look of the classic AB. They look a bit like a mash up of a SBT and a AST. I would like to see those dogs canonized into the UKC, and the frog looking dogs deemed corrupt.


I'm quite fond of the classics myself. My ab pup is still very amstaff in appearance being only 5 months old. I've done a fair amount of studying back through her pedigree and she reminds me a lot of the old Ruffian dogs several generations back.

But yes, there are a lot of people breeding bullies just because they wanted a ride on the money train and it has resulted in a lot of slop.


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Carriana said:


> I'm quite fond of the classics myself. My ab pup is still very amstaff in appearance being only 5 months old. I've done a fair amount of studying back through her pedigree and she reminds me a lot of the old Ruffian dogs several generations back.
> 
> But yes, there are a lot of people breeding bullies just because they wanted a ride on the money train and it has resulted in a lot of slop.


Lucy is a cute pup. I would never have guessed her to be a bully. lol

I refuse to talk to family of mine who have decided to breed labs in their backyard because they're "trendy". But only the brown ones, because they're a rare type of Labrador. :hammer:

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## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

:cheers::goodpost:


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## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

jaceaa said:


> I agree that people need to do the research, but this is the general public we are talking about. Joe Shmo sees one breeder with a flashy web site, and professionally photographed and photo shopped dogs, and then someone who breeds quality APBT that doesn't have a web site and flash and their dogs don't look like an SUV with a tail they will think "you get what you pay for" In the case of the APBT and the American Bully that is the farthest thing from reality. I would be equally satisfied if the ADBA stopped registering them all together. They could go back into the pedigrees and determine the "corrupt" bloodlines. I just think they need to be their own breed or registered with the registries that recognize them. Maybe refusing to register those bloodlines is the only way to force those breeders to stop mislabeling their product.


:cheers::goodpost:


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Whatever u say..... is this like the dog food jealousy thing all over again? Just look up camelots king. Jack ellis had him. Level 3 guardian dog. But hey ya know.... u aint got 1(or dont feed it) so it must be subpar.... what was it jake told u about "flex" standing in my front yard???? I thought so...... check out team no fear and "osa" pedigree and accomplishments... rocket fire and jack boots were winners(theyre camelot), theres a 2x chevy adba confo champ (yeah even can confo out). Theres a couple outits down south(one of whish being southern inferno) use(or did use) kgb(if u dnt know kgb comel9t should never leave ur lips) xs to hunt hogs. It is what it is. U told me sitting on ur couch u have no idea about the big dogs... so which is it????
> 
> I said they were mastiff crosses (good try though), also if you knew any of the true history behind the apbt they originated from dogs well over 50lbs(ask fh he'll explain it better than I can). Only person misleading ppl is you. I suggest next time you do one of your edit happy, full moon, self loathing, panic attacks and wanna argue you pick a different target.. Not that I expect this post to last long....


food jealousy..that's funny.. Just because i do not have one or feed it does not mean I believe it to be sub par. Quit assuming things. Jake said flex was DA. That does not mean that he can compare to the ability of a smaller dog, does it? Ok - so there have been a few that made the grade in the past. OSY - good looking animal concidering what he is bred from. Yes he has some accomplishments also. 
Good to point out.

If I knew anything of the original apbts?? There were a few over fifty yes(even a Colby, Pincher), but not too often and the standards do not lie neither does history.. How was anything i put mis leading...I said show me, you did show a few end of story. The edit button is there for a reason.


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## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

I I always thought the amstaff, apbt came from the same origin of [] dogs from Europe.After so long UKC separated themselves from the name a most definitely the sport and basically made them show type.So if years of not game testing, and selective breeding deos that not break down a breed to breeds?I guess even as a human race we share(help me out I'm not good with all this) genetics.But we're broken down by race/color, so that doesn't makes us the same.How is that different when it come to k-9 and breeds?

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## Chloesmygirl (Jan 31, 2011)

OldDog said:


> Ok.........."bully" for you ( couldn't resist the pun) , the problem is that not all folks with bullies have your degree of ethics.
> 
> And part of the problem arrives when folks represent their " bullies" as something they aren't.
> 
> ...


I have to say, I really agree with this post. Even the parts that may be deemed politically incorrect, lol. I especially agree with the part bolded in red. Yes, I know I don't post here too often, I lurk mostly. Disclaimer: I only own mutts! I am just going by observation only.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Chloesmygirl said:


> I have to say, I really agree with this post. Even the parts that may be deemed politically incorrect, lol.


Screw "politically correct" when it comes to making life miserable for dogs and revising history. We tapdance around it, but we all KNOW what's going on when it comes to "bullleez"....


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Mt question is how many years does roc have vested in the american bully, how many shows has his dog won at, how many yards has he been on? All that is very relevant cuz if the anwers are none hes just reading and repeating propaganda. How many adba shows, wps, apbt yards, ect? If none hes talking about something he has no clue about. 

Any time ive ever been approached or heard a dog fight discussion(locally and no historical accounts) it always has a "100 pound blue pit"...... ain't bulldog ppl spouting that bs...


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

FAct of the matter both breeds are represented in the major part by BYB garbadge. You have many fake doggers and peddlers out their as bully folks that have no clue what to do with a dog or where it comes from. Their is probably as many true to the bully movement and betterment of their new breed as their are real life doggers. So to even argue or lump folks into a group from either side is crazy. 

Any how the only thing said here taht bothered me was the blancket state ment of big dogs chains and teaching dogs to fight. For some one who has been one this site for a considerable amount of time to say that. Well it is rediculous is what it is. you never been on a Bulldoggers yard that keeps thier dogs in that type of enviroment then you cant speak on it.

Sept some one in my little subdivision called AC on me and the way I keep my dogs. Needles to say they showed up I walk them into my back yard showed them the houses shaded areas. The cahins spots ad security. Then I showed them the feed witch contained a raw short rib, chicken quarter, fish oil pill and scoop of yogart. He laghed said some folks have no idea I wish more folks put time int to care for their animals. Now that is in short we had a long conversation. He left with a show fliyer and came to NAts the end of that very month. People are so ignorent to the fact that people that care for their animals come from all walks of life and it aint the bree or the social class of the person. It is the way they treat their animal and the standard they choose to set for their breeding program...


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

^^^^^^^ well said rudy....very well.....

NOW IF ONE OF YALL DONT BAN THAT FRUITCAKE IMA GOING TO...

AND THATS ANOTHER FACT..ROC,TAKE THIS FOR WHAT IT IS...BUT I'VE TOLD YOU ONCE......IMA LONG PASSED TIRED OF YO MOUTH....

NOW THATS A ******* APBT WAY OF TELLIN YOU TO SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE...CAUSE YOU BEGININ TO RUB FOLKS THE WRONG WAY!!!!!! AGAIN!

KNO WHAT I MEAN CUZ?


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## STiLL WILL (May 1, 2013)

rocthebully said:


> I don't think you and a lot of other people actually know what goes on with " bullies" and for olddog to talk down about the bully crowd compared to the bulldog crowd is stupid, *the bully people take care of there dogs, they don't fight there dogs or tie them to a heavy chain outside in the woods , I could say that most apbt people are a bunch of broke ass red necks that like to see each there dogs kill each other ,*times have changed dog fighting has been illegal for a long time so what good is a pitbull today??


Volumes of your own ignorance and character are spoken with retarded blanket statements such as these.

The fact that you somehow hint at using (heavy)"chains" and keeping dogs "out in the woods" as some kind of animal cruelty further shows your lack of knowledge with "bulldog people" whom you are so willing to 'hypothetically' bash. You know without BULLDOG PEOPLE your coveted AmBully wouldn't even exist. Swallow that.

You would benefit from research. Don't speak badly on things which you have no experience with.

"times have changed dog fighting has been illegal for a long time so what good is a pitbull today??"

....but its ok for a lot AmBullies to be bred with/for overdone muscles and block heads? Do they make for better companions built that way? See how stupid this sounds? Exactly.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

^^^^:clap::clap: Very nicely put sir!


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

I agree with ADBA. I will no longer register anything with UKC.

So many of these "bullies" ARE just poorly bred, exaggerated APBTs (some are mixed, but no matter). One should condemn the practice of purposely breeding everything from very overdone APBTS to very deformed APBTs, not make a "breed" out of the results.

I could care less what the bully clubs do. They should go off and do their thing and leave UKC and ADBA and THEIR pedigrees alone (ABKC needs to decide what peds IT wants; not tell UKC/ADBA what peds ARE bullies); and the more legitimate registries need to stay far, far away from the bully clubs.

I think UKC made a big mistake.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Dreamer I agree mostly with ya. But you have to relise their is a huge amount of crap being registered with the ADBA that would not be considered APBT as well. Just saying their is a lot of trash being passed off by all three Registries then most supporters of any one choose to see. I think best way to decide what the Registrey truley stands for is to attend their event. Only then can you see what they choose to award or deem breed worthy. 

If that being the case then yes the UKC has the most problem in keeping a clean ideal of what the standars is... But i think onece they find a confo standard for bullies and line out the differnce in the two they will be able to clean up.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Rudy4747 said:


> Dreamer I agree mostly with ya. But you have to relise their is a huge amount of crap being registered with the ADBA that would not be considered APBT as well. Just saying their is a lot of trash being passed off by all three Registries then most supporters of any one choose to see.


Then the solution is NOT to give legitimacy (breed status) to the people/groups that caused the mess! Breed status by UKC and/or ADBA means a LOT! DO NOT give it!

Instead, to the extent they can, the registries need to purge the hung peds, educate and condemn the overdone dogs that ARE just very bad APBTs and NOT reward them at all in the ring.

And stay far, far away from anything called an "American Bully"; No mention in mags, message boards, history, etc...they need to be ignored. Let the bullies go do their thing and disavow anything about them, except for the carnage they did to legitimate registries. And then POUND them as dang near criminal.


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

DieselsMommie said:


> What kinda gets me upset is when you go to google "American Bully" American Pit Bull Terrier is the first thing that pops up.
> 
> I don't hate bullies, I just don't understand why some call them "bully pits" or are associate them with the APBT if the bully crowd has spent "so much time" to distinguish the two breeds.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Im on bbatv and others alot and believe me after what I've learned on this site and how"bulldog" people take pride in there beeed , I make sure and correct them everytime its disrespect towards the apbt and the ab for sure.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

WELDER~! :cheers:

Dreamer and Rudy :thumbsup: both have made stellar points. I agree with the ADBA because genetically they are the same, and as stated before when AST is registred in ADBA its registered as it is genetically APBT which simply is bulldog.

NOW, that being said; as Rudy touched on, the Bully folks aren't goin anywhere. HOPEFULLY they can become more educated, and if they want to move the BULLY to be its own breed, then they will have to work much harder and in that notion the UKC did the right thing providing only ONE THING: they adhere to the working dog conformation and expectation of the APBT as their format for APBT. Then it would be obvious as what the differences are. PEOPLE don't realized there is a reason for the ADBA standing. GENETICALLY they're all bulldogs and that gene pool in the ADBA is APBT. Dna test a bully its gonna be the same as APBT its gonna show a world of bulldog diversity and confuse the hell out of the person doing the test let alone the laymen who are reading the results. Genetic Manipulations is all they are; remember the Boston Bull and Terrier aka Boston Pit Bull Terrier aka Boston Bull Terrier was bred so small they decided to use a french bulldog which forever changed the genetic code of those dogs. After all this time when a Boston Xs with a APBT the outcome is an original Boston. POINT??? <<<<-----{{{{{ Yes, glad ya'll asked... 
:rofl: JK Well its because the APBT is the best genetic source for the original bulldog which was thrown into the pit and forever dubbed PitBull. So best example, what happens when you take a malemute or husky back to a wolf? which genetic source is stronger and also the parent source?? EXACTLY!!! The APBT is the Bulldog which is the parent source for at least 40 breeds, just in different era's and regions dubbed by different words all the same Bulldog.

Just to show my point of genetic strength. Here is an example I've used often for the last 4 years.http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=321334
Go to the ADBA website you'll see this dog again, behind weight pull.

GENETIC superiority is coming from where???? U guessed it; the APBT (bulldog)

Thus the ADBA standing..........................................

It will take 15yrs of selective breeding and hard culling to found the bully as a breed apart in all truth. Some real scientific style breeding would have to take place.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

rocthebully said:


> , I make sure and correct them everytime its disrespect towards the apbt and the ab for sure.


Not going to do any good now.

It's what the public has thought the APBT should look like for the past 35 years.

THe "bully" thing has merely cemented that belief. It's not going away.


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Dreamer said:


> Then the solution is NOT to give legitimacy (breed status) to the people/groups that caused the mess! Breed status by UKC and/or ADBA means a LOT! DO NOT give it!
> 
> Instead, to the extent they can, the registries need to purge the hung peds, educate and condemn the overdone dogs that ARE just very bad APBTs and NOT reward them at all in the ring.
> 
> And stay far, far away from anything called an "American Bully"; No mention in mags, message boards, history, etc...they need to be ignored. Let the bullies go do their thing and disavow anything about them, except for the carnage they did to legitimate registries. And then POUND them as dang near criminal.


Just stop the Bully bashing already cause that's what starts all this mess, I'm gonna stick up for my breed just like you defend your breed and that's all it comes down to , your choice my choice ..


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Dreamer said:


> Not going to do any good now.
> 
> It's what the public has thought the APBT should look like for the past 35 years.
> 
> THe "bully" thing has merely cemented that belief. It's not going away.


Well there's a lot of people that watch youtube and read all the comments and I'm not the only one that corrects them so maybe we can at least get these people to change or take the pitbull name off there kennels name and for the people that think a bully is what an apbt is supposed to look like can't do nothing about that..


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

still blame shifting.. these people.. first need to understand it yourself as your still calling it YOUR breed. As if you know more than the family behind ADBA about bulldogs than they do or as if you know more than veterinary and scientist who did a complete study on Bulldog (pit bull type dogs) dna. 

In case you didn't notice.. title to thread: ADBA out look on American Bully. Not really any bashing, just different folks all saying the same thing in different languages.. The Bully is genetically manipulated APBT that can't work to the standards of a working bulldog. However the APBT owns them genetically. It will take many moons before they are DNA wise a breed apart.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Firehazard said:


> It will take many moons before they are DNA wise a breed apart.


Please, let's not educate that DNA can determine BREED. It CAN'T.

It can determine parentage.

Geez, even the legal system is "learning" that DNA determines breed.

We are going down a dangerous path if the legal system gets to determine breed.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

DNA determines whether or not your human, african american, native american, irish, African, Chinese, pacific islander.. etc... Dna determines if canis lupis is wolf, dog, bulldog, husky, etc... 

DNA testing determines all that along with the %'s  DNA is and does as DNA is and does. Even the legal system, Huh?... your all over the place. Yes, they use the dna testing if they can, and its permit-able. Again your confusing paper and biology. We can't put our own two cents as law on mitochondria. NOW.. If you use the good ol fashioned way of work, well ... work and breeding proven workers defines, alters, and solidfies all working breeds. 

Species
Sub Species
Strain 
Sub Strain

Thats the scientific format for all animals. Especially those domesticated.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Ebar And Roc The bulls Quit throwing my THread off with y'all lover quaral and take it to PM's if it aint got to do with THe Bully Issue take it else where their has been good educational posts since y'all spat the answers many point brought up. 

Roc the bully your post were ment to be sarcasim I beleive but many took your talk of white trash and heavy cahin as uneducated. 

Ebar don't feed the Troll homie. Some folks fish for drama. Brush it off man and move on I like your way of thinking and you stick to what you like, I like that. Keep on your quest to find the right road to take with the bully dogs, WHo knows I may need some help with bully questions one day and my list of bully fanciers to look to is quite short!


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Firehazard said:


> Again your confusing paper and biology.


I'm not. It's the legal system that is. THEY and the ignorant masses don't KNOW the difference!

If they think that a DNA test can determine whether a rescue dog is an APBT or not, what's to stop them from thinking that a REGISTRY should use DNA to determine whether it's purebreds ARE purebred?

With all these DNA tests that are out there for people to have fun with, and the fact that some jurisdictions will take a DNA test as to whether a dog is a "pit bull" (rescue stuff), these people that don't KNOW any better are going to think a DNA test is all you need to tell whether my pure-bred registered dog IS really purebred!

You and I know that the notion of our dogs being "purebred" is totally different from what a DNA test says. The very man-made notion of "purebred" is not recognized by DNA. But, people ARE trying to go there.

It's a dangerous path to get the notion out there that a DNA test can tell breed or mix or type when it comes to dogs. Those are all man-made constructs.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Didnt see it like that... only from educational, not from the typical and stereotypical hysteria driven mass society and the bureaucratic judicial system that is not a business itself. Good call!!! :cheers:

fact remains there are real dna tests, a lil more costly and like with humans it shows the whole chain and where what is plugged in where


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Rudy and jtp , I got you and I don't take anything to hart unless its true , most of the time im just reading and greeting and maybe my sarcasm and the way I say things is taken the wrong way and in that part I'm wrong , being a student of the martial arts has changed my life in every way and yes I would get mad if someone was talking down on my teachers, but plz I'm far from being cocky or puffing my chest , but I do joke around and I am a smart ass but in a nice way if that's possible , lol and I don't stick around this site to troll , I like this site I feel comfortable here and I'm sorry ...


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Koo and thnx guys!


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

yea rudy plz do!!! and altho i thank ya for the for puttin me in there with olddog and mr abernathy,ima long way from a true dogman and no where near their level...

but i presh8 it.....

clean this thing up rudy..... good posting fh and dreamer...


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

welder said:


> yea rudy plz do!!! and altho i thank ya for the for puttin me in there with olddog and mr abernathy,ima long way from a true dogman and no where near their level...
> 
> but i presh8 it.....
> 
> clean this thing up rudy..... good posting fh and dreamer...


Thats a matter of opinion. I thought heart and character made the dogman just as much as the dogs did.... your sir have both of those in abundance....


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## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

Dreamer said:


> I'm not. It's the legal system that is. THEY and the ignorant masses don't KNOW the difference!
> 
> If they think that a DNA test can determine whether a rescue dog is an APBT or not, what's to stop them from thinking that a REGISTRY should use DNA to determine whether it's purebreds ARE purebred?
> 
> ...


:goodpost::cheers:


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## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm no expert on breeding and far from on dna.I understand where Firehazard is coming from and what he's saying.I concur that back when this bully pit bull movement started and the crossing of amstaff to ukc apbts started.It may ha e been concidered a bulkier apbt, hell fom my understandng lots of tgose dogs titled in UKC rings.Some people feel the amstaff isn't a different but just a shell of the bulldog since it doeant work and doesn't do what the bulldog was bred for.Lot of people feel opposite, and say they're totally two different breeds.

I agree that the amstaff due to selectivebreeding and seperation is indeed its own breed.And back yard n the day you had some amstaffs that have been [] proven but that's yrs ago.And one has to take tgis into consideration ambullies have multiple bull dog breeds crossed in them.Look at the XXL class, and how they damn near look mastiff or am bulldogish.Each class looks different height, built hell some muzzles even defer.I love the classic class most off those dogs rmind me of UKC apbts or Amstaffs (some say they're the same).I'm wondering how long does it take for breeding and comformation before a dog is a breed? From my m my understanding this movement has been going on for 20 some odd years now.With their own registeries and conformation.

Yes now UKC reconize them as a separate breed.So why not ADBA? Why not have them as their own breed? Most of them don't or can't show their dogs.Some weight pull and some just have the ADBA registration bc that's what kennel club the dog was registered with.I feel and again JMHO that the american bully is its own breed and far from an apbt.Maybe when it started out, yes then.But now no they're far from the same.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

because theyre all the same DNA!!!! maybe ya'll should take a course in biology. The ADBA recognizes working bulldogs as they've always been and they're registered as American Pit Bull Terriers as they've been since the 1890s.. and early 1900s.

workers and producers  as work defines any breed of dog; just breeding that dog to be pretty doesnt change the DNA heritage even if there are some mutations they're mutations of "THAT" heritage. 

simply put: ADBA views bully craze as breeding unfit and unsound dogs just not in those direct words. When an AMSTF is registered as a APBT in ADBA its an APBT. No matter how you feel about something that doesnt change the truth of the matter.


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^good god amighty!!!!!!!!!!!!

preach it brother preach it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

amen!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> because theyre all the same DNA!!!! maybe ya'll should take a course in biology. The ADBA recognizes working bulldogs as they've always been and they're registered as American Pit Bull Terriers as they've been since the 1890s.. and early 1900s.
> 
> workers and producers  as work defines any breed of dog; just breeding that dog to be pretty doesnt change the DNA heritage even if there are some mutations they're mutations of "THAT" heritage.
> 
> simply put: ADBA views bully craze as breeding unfit and unsound dogs just not in those direct words. When an AMSTF is registered as a APBT in ADBA its an APBT. No matter how you feel about something that doesnt change the truth of the matter.


If you understand genetics at least partially, most of these debates and topics regarding what is or isn't wouldn't even exist.. you know.

Maybe that is something we should cover ten fold.. going back to the basics, because it seems the basics hasn't sunk in many folk.

Truth is there is no debate, there is no questioning as the answers have been around far too long, open mind, open eyes, you may receive


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:cheers: aint that the truth~


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## tacomabandit (Jul 23, 2010)

Not as many years as you think.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## tacomabandit (Jul 23, 2010)

doughboi said:


> I'm no expert on breeding and far from on dna.I understand where Firehazard is coming from and what he's saying.I concur that back when this bully pit bull movement started and the crossing of amstaff to ukc apbts started.It may ha e been concidered a bulkier apbt, hell fom my understandng lots of tgose dogs titled in UKC rings.Some people feel the amstaff isn't a different but just a shell of the bulldog since it doeant work and doesn't do what the bulldog was bred for.Lot of people feel opposite, and say they're totally two different breeds.
> 
> I agree that the amstaff due to selectivebreeding and seperation is indeed its own breed.And back yard n the day you had some amstaffs that have been [] proven but that's yrs ago.And one has to take tgis into consideration ambullies have multiple bull dog breeds crossed in them.Look at the XXL class, and how they damn near look mastiff or am bulldogish.Each class looks different height, built hell some muzzles even defer.I love the classic class most off those dogs rmind me of UKC apbts or Amstaffs (some say they're the same).I'm wondering how long does it take for breeding and comformation before a dog is a breed? From my m my understanding this movement has been going on for 20 some odd years now.With their own registeries and conformation.
> 
> Yes now UKC reconize them as a separate breed.So why not ADBA? Why not have them as their own breed? Most of them don't or can't show their dogs.Some weight pull and some just have the ADBA registration bc that's what kennel club the dog was registered with.I feel and again JMHO that the american bully is its own breed and far from an apbt.Maybe when it started out, yes then.But now no they're far from the same.


Not as many years as you think. My Tacoma breeding I just did has a winner in the ped.

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