# Are pit bull dogs still working dogs?



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

The pit bull...any that are worth breeding in my opinion,
should go from sleeping on the porch/couch to property guardian in a split second. There is no need to train a dog to protect his property from other animals. People have been posting that "pet dogs" should not double as property guardians against ferral dogs, coyotes, raccoons, puma...what ever.

The pit bull dogs I have owned were never trained to know how to scrap. They were born with the instinct. 


If the pit bull dog ever becomes a breed that wont jump up and give his life to protect my kids from a coyote ...I would cull it from any breeding program and trade up for a dog that can be my pet/property guardian.
My horse is plenty tough....but she has back up from a whole team of dogs that I have never trained to do anything except pose for the show ring and to be nice to human visitors. Every dog I feed is game for a scrap with wild life and any that cur out would be sterilized and given away.

How many of you think that a pit bull dog has to be "trained" to protect your house or persn from a ferral dog/cyote/puma attack? How many of you would keep a pit bull that would watch you get attacked and do nothing?

This is by no means an attack on anyone...
I only speak on this because I think the trend seems to be that pit bulls are teddy bears bred to pull a cart or run an agility course. 
No! ....these dogs were bred to fight and if necessary DIE for his owner.


----------



## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I don't know.... my dog hid behind me when a kitten hissed at her.... LOL


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

lol....my dogs run from their kitty friends here in the house too!....lol


----------



## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

When she was a puppy, she grew up with my cat who weighed 15lbs and she weighed like half of that. He used to beat her butt. And she kept going back for more. I had to start keeping them away from each other because i got tired of her head being scratched up. lol And then she started hiding from kittens... lol Silly dog.


----------



## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I honestly don't think you need to train them to protect. If you give them love and they are bonded to your family they would do anything to protect you. I have never trained my dogs to attack or defend but I know they would. We were all out side smoking a while back and two big labs, off leash, came running across the street. Dosia ran over and stood in front of my son puffing up and trying to look as big as possible. Our yard is fenced so no worries but there's no way he would have let them any where near my son. They are very smart animals and they know what to do when comes to that.


----------



## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I hope Helena is protective over my baby when he comes.


----------



## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> I hope Helena is protective over my baby when he comes.


She will be. Helena is a great girl i'm sure she will love him as much as you do. :woof::woof:


----------



## franktank1 (Dec 29, 2009)

I have no doubt that mine would would protect me in the necessary situation. This breed is smart enough to know the difference between a threatening and non-threatening situation for me or himself. And has the capability to defend what is his. He's a big teddy bear, but he's my big teddy bear, not everyone else's that comes into my house. Not to say he's an unfriendly dog, he is very friendly. But always on alert for my well being. I know this because i've seen it in him. He would give his life in order to save mine, and that's something hard to come by.


----------



## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

Well my pup shows signs of protection around me and the apt. So did my old pit. 

in the apt, when she hears noises of people coming in she will bark a little until she realizes it's people, then she stops and wags her tail lol.

other then that, she always tries to chase birds/squirrels.


----------



## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> The pit bull...any that are worth breeding in my opinion,
> should go from sleeping on the porch/couch to property guardian in a split second. There is no need to train a dog to protect his property from other animals. People have been posting that "pet dogs" should not double as property guardians against ferral dogs, coyotes, raccoons, puma...what ever.
> 
> The pit bull dogs I have owned were never trained to know how to scrap. They were born with the instinct.
> ...


I don't think anyone is questioning any of this and I think most people here will agree with you. There is nothing I have ever seen that suggests that the breed has become so watered down they wouldn't do anything in question.

I love the dog for everything it is. I love the characteristics it displays. I love the fact that my breed will not turn down a challenge when needed. Would I feed a dog that wouldn't? Yes, but in my opinion that is unlikely to happen. There are still so many good blood lines being kept true to the breed that there are plenty of dogs out there that keep this breed true to its form.


----------



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

APBT's were never bred to be guardians so I have no clue what your trying to prove. That thread was talking about house dogs getting attacked by wild dogs. Now you say every APBT should protect it's property and if not it should be culled? What a ridiculous concept! They are not guardians and many people who have bread for guardian gene's many temperament issues. APBT's are not bred to do the job of a great Pyrenees or similar breed. 

Now I know you are not talking about my dogs when you said bred for agility! You saying my stock in my kennel are not bulldogs? Your whole post is ridiculous by saying that they were bred to fight and die protecting their owners.
I can't remember do you even own any real APBT's or are you the one with dogo's?


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Aidan said:


> I don't think anyone is questioning any of this and I think most people here will agree with you. There is nothing I have ever seen that suggests that the breed has become so watered down they wouldn't do anything in question.
> 
> I love the dog for everything it is. I love the characteristics it displays. I love the fact that my breed will not turn down a challenge when needed. Would I feed a dog that wouldn't? Yes, but in my opinion that is unlikely to happen. There are still so many good blood lines being kept true to the breed that there are plenty of dogs out there that keep this breed true to its form.


Truthfully...there is no way to know unless the situation arises. 
By the way...on another thread people seem to think that a house pet is not equipped to protect its property should a strange or wild animal present a challenge. They say the dogs must be trained.:hammer::hammer::hammer:


----------



## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)

Does the dogs natural instinct and the APBTs more often than not high prey drive suggest they wont protect their property from other animals?

I also think this could be a great thread but cross posting things from the other thread will only bring drama.

Also referring to Lisas post, is there not a huge difference between being guardians, and running off wild animals?


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> APBT's were never bred to be guardians so I have no clue what your trying to prove. That thread was talking about house dogs getting attacked by wild dogs. Now you say every APBT should protect it's property and if not it should be culled? What a ridiculous concept! They are not guardians and many people who have bread for guardian gene's many temperament issues. APBT's are not bred to do the job of a great Pyrenees or similar breed.
> 
> Now I know you are not talking about my dogs when you said bred for agility! You saying my stock in my kennel are not bulldogs? Your whole post is ridiculous by saying that they were bred to fight and die protecting their owners.
> I can't remember do you even own any real APBT's or are you the one with dogo's?


I wonder if we are even discussing the same breed sometimes.
So when I present a fact you don't agree with you challenge my qualification to present it?...lol
OK.
The truth is that you don't know me nor can you know my expertise or lack thereof in the breed. So...believe what you will. Doesn't change my opinion at all.


----------



## thaim (Feb 6, 2009)

lost cause


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

thaim said:


> lost cause


:hammer:
What is the lost cause?
That I expect any pit bull I have to go against any wild life that might cross into my property lines? 
Or that I am not going to present my resume to people who are not interested in learning anything from me?


----------



## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Ok I really hope no one was raggin on Lisa's dogs, I have yet to see more beautifully trained dogs. Lisa your doing good all your dogs are smart and beautiful, I seriously hope no one was trying to put you down.


----------



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Running off animals is one thing he is saying that is what they were bred for and would cull a dog if it did not do that. I think Thaim is right, lost cause......

And your experience and knowledge of the breed is important if you want to argue breed characteristics. With some of your posts in the past, it makes me wonder what your knowledge truly is or if your just going off what you think you know about the breed.


----------



## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)

ugh I wish people would reply to my posts instead of just arguing.......


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

kg420 said:


> Ok I really hope no one was raggin on Lisa's dogs, I have yet to see more beautifully trained dogs. Lisa your doing good all your dogs are smart and beautiful, I seriously hope no one was trying to put you down.


I don't know Mrs Lisa nor do I know of her breeding practices or training.
All I know is Pit Bull Dogs and molossers in general. So, No it is not a knock at any ones dogs. Unless they breed dogs that would run from a Coyote/raccon/puma...etc on its property.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Aidan said:


> Does the dogs natural instinct and the APBTs more often than not high prey drive suggest they wont protect their property from other animals?
> 
> I also think this could be a great thread but cross posting things from the other thread will only bring drama.
> 
> Also referring to Lisas post, is there not a huge difference between being guardians, and running off wild animals?


A pit bull could run into problems with protecting their masters land because they may "catch and hold" until the other animal dies or the poor dog gets jumped by other wild animals. That is where other dog breeds are a bit better suited to be estate guards. For instance my mastiffs will run an animal off the property but not pursue beyond our property line. But with some dogs..they might chase and try to kill instead of just running animals off. However if my mastiff does grab within the property line..it is death for whatever they grab.


----------



## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Ugh I'm done.


----------



## thaim (Feb 6, 2009)

why would u cull a dog from being bred if it cant do a job of protecting. your forgeting about the people who live in the city and want to show off thier apbt's as a great family dog to others who don't know anything about the breed.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

thaim said:


> why would u cull a dog from being bred if it cant do a job of protecting. your forgeting about the people who live in the city and want to show off thier apbt's as a great family dog to others who don't know anything about the breed.


Read my first post and you might find the answer.


----------



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> A pit bull could run into problems with protecting their masters land because they may "catch and hold" until the other animal dies or the poor dog gets jumped by other wild animals. That is where other dog breeds are a bit better suited to be estate guards. For instance my mastiffs will run an animal off the property but not pursue beyond our property line. But with some dogs..they might chase and try to kill instead of just running animals off. However if my mastiff does grab within the property line..it is death for whatever they grab.


You proved my point why APBT's are not great guardians of property. Guarding behavior was never the intent of a bulldog not saying they could not do it but your whole thread is based on what they were bred for.

If you got attacked by a wild animal would your bulldog protect you? You may never know unless your dog was put in that situation. That is not the same as protecting your property from animals. Those are two entirely different situations.


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

APBTs as guardian dogs - APBTs are not good or breed for guarding property or livestock, buy a LGD. It would take alot of training for a true APBT to want to bite a human.

APBTs protecting theirs owners - This can go both ways don't be surprised if your out walking your dog and you get attacked by another person and your "pitbull" sits back and sees how "game" you are.

APBTs used/breed for agility, weightpull or any other similar activity does nothing but provide great exercise, better mind set for the animal, and also helps the the APBTs image to society. I see no problem with that

As for the part were the OP stated that every dog he feeds is game for a scrap is a bold statement. You may own game "bred" dogs but that doesn't guarantee you that your dogs are game. Once they get ahold of something with some fire they just might tuck tail and run. 

Want protection => buy a gun.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Mcleod15 said:


> APBTs as guardian dogs - APBTs are not good or breed for guarding property or livestock, buy a LGD. It would take alot of training for a true APBT to want to bite a human.
> 
> APBTs protecting theirs owners - This can go both ways don't be surprised if your out walking your dog and you get attacked by another person and your "pitbull" sits back and sees how "game" you are.
> 
> ...


My threads had nothing t do with guarding against humans. I am strictly speaking about a pit bull dog fighting off or killing wild animals that enter its property/territory.


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Mcleod15 said:


> APBTs protecting theirs owners - This can go both ways don't be surprised if your out walking your dog and you get attacked by another person and your "pitbull" sits back and sees how "game" you are.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I love that hahaha:clap: that is so funny...


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> My threads had nothing t do with guarding against humans. I am strictly speaking about a pit bull dog fighting off or killing wild animals that enter its property/territory.


I think I know what you are thinking or asking I should say. I think a gamebred working dog could probably kill any animal that comes in its yard. However, a petbull is not wired the same and not everyone has a gamebred working dog you know? My dog's pedigree says American Pitbull Terrier but I sure as hell know he is not. I mean he is in the family of it and I can trace his ancestors back to when they first came from europe, but his lineage took a detour that in my opinion rewired his behavior and abilities and I doubt it would perform like his ancestors. Specially if you train your dog and socialize it with everything and everyone so It can become a possitive image for the breed, I think Bernie will Lick a squirrel before trying to kill (not that he is fast enough to get to one lol) so I guess unless you own a proven dog I think the answer is maybe. Your Dogos are the product of generations of tested working dogs for a task, most of our dogs are pets or show dogs that are no longer wired for that type of work or the []. I think after several generations of breeding a trait out, the dog will most likely loose that instict. I could be wrong or sound ignorant with my answer but I think people with gamebred working dogs could possibly answer that if their dogs have been in that scenario.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> That is not the same as protecting your property from animals. Those are two entirely different situations.


What makes that any different?
The dog is either going to protect its property or not.


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

cull and breed for the traits you want whether they are predominant in any breed. i myself do not need a dog to run off any wild animals and i also dont see an APBT that does not do that task as a cur... so no i would not cull a APBT that does not perform that task. although I would be surprised to see any high drive APBT to not WANT to go after some furry critters, i know mine will


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

davidfitness83 said:


> I think I know what you are thinking or asking I should say. I think a gamebred working dog could probably kill any animal that comes in its yard. However, a petbull is not wired the same and not everyone has a gamebred working do you know? My dog's pedigree says American Pitbull Terrier but I sure as hell know he is not. I mean he is in the family of it and I can trace his ancestors back to when they first came from europe, but his lineage took a detour that in my opinion rewired his behavior and abilities and I doubt it would perform like his ancestors. Specially if you train your dog and socialize it with everything and everyone so It can become a possitive image for the breed, I think Bernie will Lick a squirrel before trying to kill (not that he is fast enough to get to one lol) so I guess unless you own a proven dog I think the answer is maybe. Your Dogos are the product of generations of tested working dogs for a task, most of our dogs are pets or show dogs that are no longer wired for that type of work or the []. I think after several generations of breeding a trait out, the dog will most likely loose that instict. I could be wrong or sound ignorant with my answer but I think people with gamebred working dogs could possibly answer that if their dogs have been in that scenario.


Firstly lets drop my dogos from this topic because I know that my dogos are in a different category....

I dont believe in game bred verses non game bred....a American Pit Bull Terrier is game bred or it is an American Staff or Ambully. (My opinion of course)...
A dog that would not engage a wild animal is a cull as far as a breeding program goes.


----------



## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

There have been stories, even on this site of dogs that never showed human aggression attacking a human that is hurting the owner and then not being HA otherwise.

From what I have seen, in my house and my families old pitbull, they will do 'something' if an animal comes into the property. I think it will scare it off but if it doesn't I would say they could chase/kill. Unless u have socialized your dog around different animals and they don't care. Most dogs will chase birds right? But I actually saw a pitbull on animal planet with bird ON him... so cute lol.


----------



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Firstly lets drop my dogos from this topic because I know that my dogos are in a different category....
> 
> I dont believe in game bred verses non game bred....a American Pit Bull Terrier is game bred or it is an American Staff or Ambully. (My opinion of course)...
> A dog that would not engage a wild animal is a cull as far as a breeding program goes.


Well lets all hope your not breeding the next generation of APBT's then. :hammer::rofl:


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Firstly lets drop my dogos from this topic because I know that my dogos are in a different category....
> 
> I dont believe in game bred verses non game bred....a American Pit Bull Terrier is game bred or it is an American Staff or Ambully. (My opinion of course)...
> A dog that would not engage a wild animal is a cull as far as a breeding program goes.


I see what you are saying, my dog is an Ambully/Amstaff/APBT cross so I will have to say that not it is not going to do any of that above.


----------



## rednose504 (Jan 10, 2010)

my girl loves to scrapit out with anyhting for fun ...... i know if my life was on the line or her boyfriend she would be knee deep in it.


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Just thought of something if you(this is referring no certain person) have APBTs as guardian dog for livestock/property how many would you use?

Also you would need to have them off leash and able to free roam.

And if you use more than one APBT off leash guarding the land and they are able to interact and touch each other then they would probably kill each other(not very good pack dogs) and then the puma will come on your land and kill everything else, racoon would just eat all your trash.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Mcleod15 said:


> Just thought of something if you(this is referring no certain person) have APBTs as guardian dog for livestock/property how many would you use?
> 
> Also you would need to have them off leash and able to free roam.
> 
> And if you use more than one APBT off leash guarding the land and they are able to interact and touch each other then they would probably kill each other(not very good pack dogs) and then the puma will come on your land and kill everything else, racoon would just eat all your trash.


I have had very good luck with male and female pairs.
The only problem I had was keeping the female on my land. I only have 3.8 acres and a small swamp in the back lot near a state forrest. 
So I ran cattle fence (electric tape) around the property and a stockade fence around the front and side of the home. Animals still seem to get in but the dogs are contained.


----------



## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

what is the point of this thread? it is a clutter pluck or arguing about a dog that wasnt bred to protect ANYTHING. the apbt was bred to fight not protect so if the dog was killing wild animals it is the instinct of "fighting" not protecting that is being driven. geezus, a game-bred apbt is TRAINED to catch hogs just like any dog is TRAINED to protect. some have it naturally but most need to have some sort of training. 

Oh, right, good luck with owning two or more real apbt's they would soon fight and kill eachother rather then the wildlife. LOL!!!!!!!!

My uncle had a few game bred dogs who were very good at hog catching but when together or near one another they went for it. they are fighting dogs NOT protection dogs....just remember that.
It doesnt even matter how long you owned a pit if it is a real pit they will eventually try to fight. you can control it but not stop it

NOW
I am done here.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

RileyRoo said:


> what is the point of this thread? it is a clutter pluck or arguing about a dog that wasnt bred to protect ANYTHING. the apbt was bred to fight not protect so if the dog was killing wild animals it is the instinct of "fighting" not protecting that is being driven. geezus, a game-bred apbt is TRAINED to catch hogs just like any dog is TRAINED to protect. some have it naturally but most need to have some sort of training.
> 
> Oh, right, good luck with owning two or more real apbt's they would soon fight and kill eachother rather then the wildlife. LOL!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


LOL...ok...I have had pit bulls probably since before you were born...

A male and female can and have gotten along just fine in my yard...both in the city and in the country. Feeding can cause problems f I wasn't standing there but other than that there was no aggression between my pairs. Not to say it couldn't happen, it is a possibility. 
If you know about hog dogs, then you know they either catch or they dont.
The only training involves where to catch (jowls verses leg etc).

---------------------------
The only reason this thread has become negative is because people like you don't like the idea that the APBT is supposed to be bred from working stock; As apposed to the AmStaff or Bullies.


----------



## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)

RileyRoo said:


> what is the point of this thread? it is a clutter pluck or arguing about a dog that wasnt bred to protect ANYTHING. the apbt was bred to fight not protect so if the dog was killing wild animals it is the instinct of "fighting" not protecting that is being driven. geezus, a game-bred apbt is TRAINED to catch hogs just like any dog is TRAINED to protect. some have it naturally but most need to have some sort of training.
> 
> Oh, right, good luck with owning two or more real apbt's they would soon fight and kill eachother rather then the wildlife. LOL!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


to honestly say 2 dogs will fight eventually no matter what is not true.


----------



## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

my kilo is a house dog and i know will protect me in a scrap but at the same time i dont make it easy for her to get hurt by wild life i think if u get a apbt to do what yer saying it should not be a house pet granted i dont think apbt's would be the best for the job id go with another breed but i feel like some of us r trying to change the way the breed is looked at havein a pit for the sole purpose of scrapeing any thing wouldnt do our breed any good JMO


----------



## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I know for a fact that my dog will run off any animal that isn't suppose to be on my land. I also know that Mikado and now Vendetta will protect my car. Mikado alerted a couple of times to certain strangers I listened to my dog and didn't help these people out so I would have to say my dog ws gaurding me. I didn't train them either to do this it was a built in drive of my dog maybe a loyality to me persay.

I know also that I never had a problem with my female and male APBT getting along no fights between the too.


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

I think it depends on the person... Personally I prefer to use wit & carry a pocket knife - my dog will not always be with me despite my need for protection, that's why I have thumbs & a brain that surpasses his. I don't hafta worry about wild game - but I do have to worry about cowardly thugs who shoot innocent dogs... I'd have to say no, an animal that provides unconditional love deserves better... I believe I was put on this earth to protect animals, as the good book states in Genesis. 

 JMO


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Lex's Guardian said:


> I think it depends on the person... Personally I prefer to use wit & carry a pocket knife - my dog will not always be with me despite my need for protection, that's why I have thumbs & a brain that surpasses his. I don't hafta worry about wild game - but I do have to worry about cowardly thugs who shoot innocent dogs... I'd have to say no, an animal that provides unconditional love deserves better... I believe I was put on this earth to protect animals, as the good book states in Genesis.
> 
> JMO


i dont understand your post...the thread is about pit bulls protecting property against wild life or feral dogs not personal protection.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I understand your question Angel. Without a shadow of a doubt, Neela would kill anything in her yard. IDK if it's protection so much but her natural instincts for fighting/prey mode. Neela does have a slight screw loose in her head... she's a guardian of my property even from people, but IDK if she really truely is normal and I don't have anything to really compare her to at my house. The other true APBTs I have encountered had the same instincts as far as "kill animals"... none were still able to be loose in a yard with another dog male/female or not as they matured. Every dog is different so we all must take that into concideration. 

In my humble oppinion, guardianship and/or protection is not necessarily "work" for an APBT like it is for the mollosser dogs. If it's there, in them, it's a bonus for the right owner... if not the right owner... there's a dog destined for a dirt nap. 

To answer your question with your title... I think there are very few APBT who are "working" dogs bred true to the original purpose. It's a shame that there have been so many short cuts within breeding programs... many more short cuts than necessary.


----------



## rednose504 (Jan 10, 2010)

i have been having my male and female for 2 1/2 years togetehr.. aint nbothing happened yet. they train together , they hunt together, they even eat together.but the female is the more dominant and he is stronger than her , she is just more aggresive.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

rednose504 said:


> i have been having my male and female for 2 1/2 years togetehr.. aint nbothing happened yet. they train together , they hunt together, they even eat together.but the female is the more dominant and he is stronger than her , she is just more aggresive.


All that I ask of you is not to rely on them getting along. Often times it happens when you're least expecting. I've had dogs get along for 3 years and then one day they woke up with a wild hair up their butts and now I can never have them together again.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> The pit bull...any that are worth breeding in There is no need to train a dog to protect his property from other animals. People have been posting that "pet dogs" should not double as property guardians against ferral dogs, coyotes, raccoons, puma...what ever.
> 
> The pit bull dogs I have owned were never trained to know how to scrap. They were born with the instinct.
> 
> ...


Exactly... A true "pitbull" APBT you have to train NOT to FIGHT, and direct his fight so that he has a purpose rather killing a kennel mate! WHICH IS WHAT HAS MADE MOST APBT ENTHUSIASTS BREED FOR THE PADDY CAKE GAMES YOU SPEAK OF.. WHen it comes down to it IMO APBTs only, really belong in rural, country, and small town settings~PEOPLE in CITIES need to do all that agility stuff I reckon, but REALLY they SHOULD be HUNTING urban coyotes and vermin w/there APBTS_..((HUMANIACS rather poison and trap.. HMMM if you had a choice of dying from gut wrenching poison, snagged in a trap, or killed by a puma or bear what would you pick.. I pick TEETH AND JAWS_)) Your absolutely right, these dogs defend your property against vermin, 4legged predators, and people w/ malicious intent... _FOR SOME REASON NONE OF MY DOGS HAVE NEVER BEEN MAN AGGRESSIVE UNLESS THERE WAS EXTREME HOSTILITY.. LOL The dogs are like, HEY "if anybody's gonna' be figthin' its gonna' be me!" hahaha_ Thats the only way I would tolerate HA............ As far as being misused and therefore misrepresented... ITS TENDER FOOTS! ((chuckles)) The world does not belong cased in cement, and the banker you so trusted sold out to the CHINESE, thats right PAY THOSE CHINESE MORTAGES.. SOAPBOX~  But yeah, your absolutely right.... the APBT is game bred, which means that when hes on a bull, buffalo, cougar/puma/Mt.Lion, coyote, wolf, wolverine, etc.. when he becomes down and out, no wind, just holding on, a whoop sack of bones~the lil' critter fires out of nowhere longer,harder and stronger than ever before, of course we all or should all know the pit dog history. Remember in the BOOK "Old Yellar", the cowboy took/got Yellar from someone who was fighting him...and thats what a real "bulldog" does. Dominate the pit, follow you and help you work a cattle drive, get lost and found by a young boy, NOT BEING HA, the whole family adopted him, to watch wrangle hogs and kill a rabid wolf, THATS a APBT, true grit.. the true bulldog. Apparently you all forget or listen to your politics rather the old men who brought/bred/created the bulldogs as they called em. AS I SAID BEFORE: " the oringinal BULLDOG went into the fighting pit, forever dubbed "Pit Bull"........ That name is for dogs of quality bulldog character unique to its own fashion, not for yard mongrels running around bitting people.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I just had a whole big thing deleted by using this Dragon software. So, I will summarize it by saying that I think is more breeders were hunters, or trade dogs with hunters, the quality of pit bull would be much better and the temperament would be much improved. After all, a human aggressive dog, cannot be used on a hunt since they are unstable. And although it is not a true game test is what we have. There are millions of feral European wild boar, destroying national forests. They are not native to America and are killing native species. While testing dogs, people would actually be doing a service to this country by hunting with catch dogs. I do not expect the person with one dog to do this. I do not expect emotional people to accept the dangers of boar hunting. However, a breeder must be held to a higher standard. It is the dangers of combat that created this breed, and it will be the dangerous combat that maintains the breed. Otherwise, we just have an animal that vaguely appears to be the American pit bull Terrier.


----------



## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> I just had a whole big thing deleted by using this Dragon software. So, I will summarize it by saying that I think is more breeders were hunters, or trade dogs with hunters, the quality of pit bull would be much better and the temperament would be much improved. After all, a human aggressive dog, cannot be used on a hunt since they are unstable. And although it is not a true game test is what we have. There are millions of feral European wild boar, destroying national forests. They are not native to America and are killing native species. While testing dogs, people would actually be doing a service to this country by hunting with catch dogs. I do not expect the person with one dog to do this. I do not expect emotional people to accept the dangers of boar hunting. However, a breeder must be held to a higher standard. It is the dangers of combat that created this breed, and it will be the dangerous combat that maintains the breed. Otherwise, we just have an animal that vaguely appears to be the American pit bull Terrier.


ive seen some great apbt boar dogs i personally dont hunt but they do make good hog dogs


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

*Quote:*
Originally Posted by Lex's Guardian View Post
I think it depends on the person... Personally I prefer to use wit & carry a pocket knife - my dog will not always be with me despite my need for protection, that's why I have thumbs & a brain that surpasses his. I don't hafta worry about wild game - but I do have to worry about cowardly thugs who shoot innocent dogs... I'd have to say no, an animal that provides unconditional love deserves better... I believe I was put on this earth to protect animals, as the good book states in Genesis.

JMO
*
Quote:*
i dont understand your post...the thread is about pit bulls protecting property against wild life or feral dogs not personal protection.
*
Lex's Guardian:* Where is it that I confused you? In your original post below - these two things bolded are what stuck out the most regarding my response:

*
Quote:*
The pit bull...any that are worth breeding in my opinion,
should go from sleeping on the porch/couch to property guardian in a split second. There is no need to train a dog to protect his property from other animals. People have been posting that "pet dogs" should not double as property guardians against ferral dogs, coyotes, raccoons, puma...what ever.

The pit bull dogs I have owned were never trained to know how to scrap. They were born with the instinct.

*If the pit bull dog ever becomes a breed that wont jump up and give his life to protect my kids from a coyote ...*I would cull it from any breeding program and trade up for a dog that can be my pet/property guardian.
My horse is plenty tough....but she has back up from a whole team of dogs that I have never trained to do anything except pose for the show ring and to be nice to human visitors. Every dog I feed is game for a scrap with wild life and any that cur out would be sterilized and given away.

How many of you think that a pit bull dog has to be "trained" to protect your house or person from a ferral dog/cyote/puma attack? How many of you would keep a pit bull that would watch you get attacked and do nothing?

This is by no means an attack on anyone...
I only speak on this because I think the trend seems to be that pit bulls are teddy bears bred to pull a cart or run an agility course.
*No! ....these dogs were bred to fight and if necessary DIE for his owner.*
*
Lex's Guardian:* 
Isn't property a personal asset, therefore personal protection? I believe every animal/human are equipped with natural instincts that would come to defense mode once triggered... Unless it's a child or puppy. I feel human beings are more of a threat than wild/feral animals... Besides if I come across a gator, I'll be SOL since gators see dogs as delicacies. I'd pick him up & start running zig-zags...


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Lex's Guardian said:


> *Quote:*
> Originally Posted by Lex's Guardian View Post
> I think it depends on the person... Personally I prefer to use wit & carry a pocket knife - my dog will not always be with me despite my need for protection, that's why I have thumbs & a brain that surpasses his. I don't hafta worry about wild game - but I do have to worry about cowardly thugs who shoot innocent dogs... I'd have to say no, an animal that provides unconditional love deserves better... I believe I was put on this earth to protect animals, as the good book states in Genesis.
> 
> ...


Personal Protection is training dogs to attack and or corner humans....
conversely the protection this whole thread is about is defending land ie: your property live stock (and you or children) from dangerous wild life. You canpull out any pocket knife you want on a boar hog or a puma but unless that dogs scratches to and grabs hold of the beast you can just throw your knife away.


----------



## shane_tweezy (Jan 11, 2010)

This is good stuff.. I literally laughed out loud at some of these responses. 
Well, in case anyone doesn't already know where I stand on this subject (LOL) 
I know for a fact my dogs will, and APPARENTLY its only my OPINION that they should protect my property from wild or unwelcomed animals. And Not just because they are pitbulls.. I would expect any dog that is capable of putting up a good fight, or atleast putting on a good front, to atleast attempt to run off any unwelcomed animals from my property.. I honestly don't think I've ever seen ANY dog, regardless of breed, or even size Not throw a fit when any unfamiliar animal came onto their owners property. Im pretty sure the average poodle would atleast bark at a strange animal in attempt to make it leave. I'd love to hear someone argue or disagree with that...

:EDIT: 
I'd like to make it a point to stress the word "UNWELCOME". If I introduce a new animal into my home, and do it properly, my dogs have no problem accepting it as part of the "pack". So this isn't about the pitbulls instict to kill, and that being the reason they protect the property. I'd be more than happy to post a picture of my chinchilla I bought last year sitting between my two pitbulls on the stairs.


----------



## Mom_of_Kambo (Nov 11, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> How many of you think that a pit bull dog has to be "trained" to protect your house or persn from a ferral dog/cyote/puma attack? How many of you would keep a pit bull that would watch you get attacked and do nothing?
> 
> This is by no means an attack on anyone...
> I only speak on this because I think the trend seems to be that pit bulls are teddy bears bred to pull a cart or run an agility course.
> No! ....these dogs were bred to fight and if necessary DIE for his owner.


I don't think a dog has to be trained. And Yes I would keep my pit even if it didn't attack because I know with our dogs I have a hard time believing they will just sit and do nothing..They WILL do something.

With our new puppy Kambo..A Pit is a Pit that being said I'm sure she's going to fight when she thinks I'm being threatened but who knows really she's still a puppy. And I'm working with her to do weight pull because that's what I want to do with her as far as "working" her. I understand these dogs were bred to protect their owners yes... but whats wrong with doing other things as well with them???????


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Mom_of_Tex said:


> I don't think a dog has to be trained. And Yes I would keep my pit even if it didn't attack because I know with our dogs I have a hard time believing they will just sit and do nothing..They WILL do something.
> 
> With our new puppy Kambo..A Pit is a Pit that being said I'm sure she's going to fight when she thinks I'm being threatened but who knows really she's still a puppy. And I'm working with her to do weight pull because that's what I want to do with her as far as "working" her. I understand these dogs were bred to protect their owners yes... but whats wrong with doing other things as well with them???????


I said the pit bulls would protect against wild and feral animals as well as work cattle. I wasn't talking about personal protection from people.


----------



## rednose504 (Jan 10, 2010)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> All that I ask of you is not to rely on them getting along. Often times it happens when you're least expecting. I've had dogs get along for 3 years and then one day they woke up with a wild hair up their butts and now I can never have them together again.


i agree with ya 100%... as she gets older she is gonna become evenmore dominant. when i leave he goes upstairs and she stays downstairs


----------



## Mom_of_Kambo (Nov 11, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> I said the pit bulls would protect against wild and feral animals as well as work cattle. I wasn't talking about personal protection from people.


Yes as was I. As far as I know only Tex is trained for personal protection. NONE of the other dogs on the yard are trained and I'm sure even though they are not trained they would attack an animal person whatever the case maybe if one of the kids or us were being threatened.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Mom_of_Tex said:


> Yes as was I. As far as I know only Tex is trained for personal protection. NONE of the other dogs on the yard are trained and I'm sure even though they are not trained they would attack an animal person whatever the case maybe if one of the kids or us were being threatened.


Most of the pits I owned were so nice that they would bark but play with anyone who walked up to them!...lol


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Honestly, I dont know if either of mine would attack a wild animal or just be real curious in what it is. They are city dogs for one and for two my male is older (14 months) but my female is young (2 1/2 months). But if we moved to a place more open (and we are in 3 weeks) it honestly wouldnt be fair of me to expect them to. The female might because shes still young but my male who knows? I raised him in a city where BSL is always haunting with that said he has been extensively trained to be tolerant of people and other animals. I mean for "zezuz" sake he runs from my Shih Tzu when she gets aggervated!! lol Tail between his legs and all. And when we move if he didnt run off animals then I wouldnt cull him its not how he was raised. But again who knows? He may decide he likes the chase. And due to BSL I have to make sure that my APBT (not bullys or AST) is a perfect ambassador for this breed or anything mistaken for it.

Yes this dog was breed to fight IN A PIT not on their personal property. They were also breed for their strong human companionship and loyalty. So with all that said if I was outside or one of my children and a wild animal posed a threat to us then I would absolutely say that Sarge would defend us (only because he has in the past). 

Those are two different situations though so to group them into one lump sum is kind of a sloshy subject. While some people may agree that this breed will protect its land with owners out of site others may not agree and that split is and will be larger than the debate of whether their dog will protect them.

I have always had two or more APBTs in the same house for over 11 years now (before that were ASTs) and only once did I have two that couldnt be in the same room together. Outside of that exception I have never once had a fight over food/toys/bed or anything. I, however, dont leave my dogs alone together ever because there is always the possibly of a fight over just a look much less anything else. In other words, I protect them from themselves. So having two or more together just roaming land by themselves with little or no supervision most of the time IS asking for trouble and will most likely end badly for one if not both. However, with a constant supervision which is extremely timely two or more can live happily without a problem in their entire life. But again two different situations that become messy and confused when lumped together.

And as for bloodlines that are not as "game" in this breed anymore: it doesnt make them any less APBT only because the drive that was once used for "game" is being directed into other things such as weight pull & agility. You can not seriously think that a APBT that has been trained to be a star in a weight pull or agility course versus running off wild animals (cause you feel you dont need to fence your property or for whatever reason) "by their own instinct" is any less of an APBT. Please tell me you are not serious...

imho this breed "true breed" APBT not the spin offs (no offense beautiful animals just cant group them all together) can be trained and will do whatever their owner/master asks of them because "thats what they were breed for". Yes people breed good fighters on for more good fighters but the drive to please their humans which asked them to fight is really the underlying breeding purpose... Dont you think?

Just one other question? What happens when your "game" or "working" dog decides to attack a nearby neighbors animal that accidentally got out of their land and onto yours and as you stated if its on your land and caught "it is death"? HMMMMMM.... wonder how fast that rural county (or wherever) you live in will pass BSL for anything that resembles a pitbull? Oh and to the untrained eye Dogos look like pitbulls (keep that in mind)... Just a thought...


----------



## Mom_of_Kambo (Nov 11, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Most of the pits I owned were so nice that they would bark but play with anyone who walked up to them!...lol


Lol, yea Guthrie's (Nick's Brother) dog Mallie is like that. I see what your saying though about the whole attack/pet thing I think...(after talking to Nick of course, haha) My whole term of "working dog" is a dog meant to work at something anything....As well as protecting the family against various things when needed. I think you're opinion maybe different or I interpretted it in the wrong way.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Mom_of_Tex said:


> Lol, yea Guthrie's (Nick's Brother) dog Mallie is like that. I see what your saying though about the whole attack/pet thing I think...(after talking to Nick of course, haha) My whole term of "working dog" is a dog meant to work at something anything....As well as protecting the family against various things when needed. I think you're opinion maybe different or I interpretted it in the wrong way.


Eh....who am I....lol


----------



## los44 (Jun 1, 2008)

i would expect an apbt bred to standard and when i say standard i mean bred for the [] to protect/defend its home from outsiders. but since apbt's are bred to a different standard today, to expect an apbt that has been bred to a different standard to behave like the apbt of old is not logical. jmo

the apbt the gamedog is dead, viva the apbt the athlete. ive accepted this even though i dont like it....the truth hurts sometimes 

the apbt is no longer a working dog in my eyes! "BUT" if you fancy weight pulling, obedience, agility competitions then i can understand if you still consider the apbt a working dog.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

los44 said:


> i would expect an apbt bred to standard and when i say standard i mean bred for the [] to protect/defend its home from outsiders. but since apbt's are bred to a different standard today, to expect an apbt that has been bred to a different standard to behave like the apbt of old is not logical. jmo
> 
> the apbt the gamedog is dead, viva the apbt the athlete. ive accepted this even though i dont like it....the truth hurts sometimes
> 
> the apbt is no longer a working dog in my eyes! "BUT" if you fancy weight pulling, obedience, agility competitions then i can understand if you still consider the apbt a working dog.


There are still game pit bulls being bred around the world


----------



## los44 (Jun 1, 2008)

Sampsons Dad said:


> There are still game pit bulls being bred around the world


honestly, what happens outside the usa is irrelevant to me as i am bound by the laws of the usa. i would be proud and honored to one day own a true to standard apbt....it is sad but i know i would probably be persecuted for owning a true to standard apbt, as i would claim my dog to be what it is and be proud and honored to do so.


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

los44 said:


> the apbt the gamedog is dead, viva the apbt the athlete. ive accepted this even though i dont like it....the truth hurts sometimes .


There are plenty of game APBTs in the USA today, you just have to know where to find them, and once you find them you better know somebody to get one. Alot of breeders still breed good gamedogs just don't sell them to anyone.
Also APBTs are still used in professional matches in the USA every day.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Mcleod15 said:


> There are plenty of game APBTs in the USA today, you just have to know where to find them, and once you find them you better know somebody to get one. Alot of breeders still breed good gamedogs just don't sell them to anyone.
> Also APBTs are still used in professional matches in the USA every day.


No nono...there are no matched dgs in the USA anymore...that was outlawed in the 70's.


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

That doesn't mean they are not matched but it doesn't mean they are true APBT either.


----------



## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

Curious thread, I find myself unclear on a few things, but here's my $.02 anyways. Keep in mind this is only my uneducated opinion. 

There needs to be a distinction made between personal and property protection as they refer to two distinctly different things. Property protection would involve more a measure of how territorial a dog is. Your property then becomes the pack stomping grounds. In essence all dogs exhibit the behavior that can be seen as property protection to some degree or another. 

Personal protection on the other hand would involve more the protection of a pack member as opposed to defense of pack territory. We would hope a dog would value us above our property. If it's keeping a squirrel off my front lawn as I get beat down in the back and the dog's purpose is to protect both me and the property I'm going to be angry about how it prioritized things.

I don't really see property protection being a "purpose" behind the genesis of the APBT. The APBT is an extremely capable and versatile dog so I am sure it will excel at it if given enough guidance regardless of the drive that it has towards it. In the end though that drive, even when not fully engaged, still dwarfs that of other breeds. There are many ways to "harness" that drive, put an APBT to work and you'll get results. What that work is is really a human matter moreso than a dog one. If the dog was left to it's own devices in the wild the majority of it's work would be hunting and shredding small furry things in order to eat. That's true for all dogs. Anything beyond that is really a human creation and we need to take responsibility for it. Thus, training. Not to say you need to train to get results.


----------



## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Sampsons Dad said:


> The pit bull...any that are worth breeding in my opinion,
> should go from sleeping on the porch/couch to property guardian in a split second. There is no need to train a dog to protect his property from other animals. People have been posting that "pet dogs" should not double as property guardians against ferral dogs, coyotes, raccoons, puma...what ever.
> 
> The pit bull dogs I have owned were never trained to know how to scrap. They were born with the instinct.
> ...


Honestly never seen a dog that did not have some sort of prey drive and protection intsinct. I say use it to your advantage (within reason). Use the right dog for the job. I wouldn't feed one that I had to train, but I sure do appreciate a dog that will. Any breed.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

DRIVE, is not GAME.. Game is when a dog is down and out and stands up to go the distance no matter what his quarry is, bull, hog, predator, or another dog. Mind YOU THAT A TRUE GAME BRED DOG LOVES TO SQUAB, BUT THE SOUND TEMP that DOG MEN love the quiet GAME dog w/ no alpha signals that waits for the impact before they turn on.. AT MOST~ _the American Pit Bull Terrier is a "Dog of Prey",_ much like the Cade Bou of France. DRIVE is in many forms and all dogs w/ drive, KBD,GSD, DOBIE, etc etc. will BITE YOUR A$$! Game dogs aren't bred or ment to be PP. * They just happen to be the breed that do anything better than anydog that was bred for that funciton, barr none... * People are tenderfooted and sissyfied they want that lil' package of dynamite, but don't want to deal w/ sweating nitro.. LOL Does that make sense? IF YOU WANT A GAME DOG get a APBT if not THEN DONT.. AND PLEASE QUIT BREEDING FOR LOOKS, Game dogs are bred for MENTALITY the conformation that comes w/ it also just happens to be part of the package.. Look at NONE GAME BRED APBT ughh.. Compare them to game bred, who has the best mental and physical status? Compare see what you get?


----------



## franktank1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> People are tenderfooted and sissyfied they want that lil' package of dynamite, but don't want to deal w/ sweating nitro.. LOL


Ha! Very, very well said...


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> That doesn't mean they are not matched but it doesn't mean they are true APBT either.


The individuals that conduct and hold these professional matches produce/breed nothing but true APBTs. I'm not talking about the street matches and bad news kennels(Vick) stories you hear in the media. There is a underground world most don't even no jack squat about.


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Personal Protection is training dogs to attack and or corner humans....
> conversely the protection this whole thread is about is defending land ie: your property live stock (and you or children) from dangerous wild life. You canpull out any pocket knife you want on a boar hog or a puma but unless that dogs scratches to and grabs hold of the beast you can just throw your knife away.


That's why you wont see me in the woods often. And _you missed my point_ - No I don't condone a dog to attack a human in any situation nor do I embrace my dog with such behavior... He's my property & my responsibility

What I'm saying is I would protect my DOG before I would have him much less expect him to protect ME or my property for ANY reason. Despite my 5'3" 100lb self - I'm the human with a brain/thumbs/foresight & find human's to be a social/eco threat more than any wild animal. But if I happen to be in the woods or one day decide to move to a rural area, I will have a gun with me & be trained to use it properly. Plus I'm sure there are other technological advance methods of protection. Not just to protect me, my family, my property but my dog as well.

To each their own I always say as long as it doesn't post threat to other living beings


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

My dogs and I catch and kill living things!....lol


----------



## los44 (Jun 1, 2008)

:goodpost:


Firehazard said:


> DRIVE, is not GAME.. Game is when a dog is down and out and stands up to go the distance no matter what his quarry is, bull, hog, predator, or another dog. Mind YOU THAT A TRUE GAME BRED DOG LOVES TO SQUAB, BUT THE SOUND TEMP that DOG MEN love the quiet GAME dog w/ no alpha signals that waits for the impact before they turn on.. AT MOST~ _the American Pit Bull Terrier is a "Dog of Prey",_ much like the Cade Bou of France. DRIVE is in many forms and all dogs w/ drive, KBD,GSD, DOBIE, etc etc. will BITE YOUR A$$! Game dogs aren't bred or ment to be PP. * They just happen to be the breed that do anything better than anydog that was bred for that funciton, barr none... * People are tenderfooted and sissyfied they want that lil' package of dynamite, but don't want to deal w/ sweating nitro.. LOL Does that make sense? IF YOU WANT A GAME DOG get a APBT if not THEN DONT.. AND PLEASE QUIT BREEDING FOR LOOKS, Game dogs are bred for MENTALITY the conformation that comes w/ it also just happens to be part of the package.. Look at NONE GAME BRED APBT ughh.. Compare them to game bred, who has the best mental and physical status? Compare see what you get?


----------



## Maraty (Jan 11, 2010)

Is the question at hand still. Are Pitbulls a working dog?.. For mine I would say yes.
The newest addition to my "pack" a young male. Is being trained to go with me when im out in the woods.He will when done training. Alert me to any animal around me. Retrieve what is needed and carry any equipment i made need other than whats in my pack. This makes him a working Pitbull I have two more. Both are protective of my whole pack. But protective does not me aggressive. The other two are "working" dog. More trained for inner city work. 
I believe they have no limits. Granted they are not pointers, however they are all darn good at alerting me to animals. And wouldnt think about moving unless told to. ((While working)).. However when released to do what they want on the property. Will give chase. I have no fences and non of my dogs have left my property. They know where (my) their terf ends.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

hahaha wouldn't be funny if the boys in blue adopted the blue working dogs as police dogs, I wonder how intimidating they would be in inner city/inner urban areas w/ a dog like that... a .45 on command, a bullet proof catch machine, lol....... Thats why "ppl" in the hood use em' hahahaha you can try to shoot the dog, try..... But other than those we all are aware of, most of these dogs do still have a purpose today, unfortunately not the original purpose inwhich designed.. But we can still run them for hours and then put them out to work cattle, catch hogs, hunt predators and for those dogs not quite game, SCH and police work is right up their alley.... But I dont think should breed k9 trained dogs, only use a certain stock to train dogs from, k9 trained dogs should be neutered.


----------



## Maraty (Jan 11, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> hahaha wouldn't be funny if the boys in blue adopted the blue working dogs as police dogs, I wonder how intimidating they would be in inner city/inner urban areas w/ a dog like that... a .45 on command, a bullet proof catch machine, lol....... Thats why "niggys" in the hood use em' hahahaha you can try to shoot the dog, try..... But other than those we all are aware of, most of these dogs do still have a purpose today, unfortunately not the original purpose inwhich designed.. But we can still run them for hours and then put them out to work cattle, catch hogs, hunt predators and for those dogs not quite game, SCH and police work is right up their alley.... But I dont think should breed k9 trained dogs, only use a certain stock to train dogs from, k9 trained dogs should be neutered.


Im not sure where you live.. And if your trying to say Pitbulls are not used for K9 Units. Your wrong. Pitbulls have been used by the police for ages now. Also
US Customs (aka CBP) also uses them as narcotic sniffer dogs.

Because they are a "fad breed" right now, there are literally thousands of pit bulls being euthanized in American shelters every week. There simply aren't enough homes, and breeders keep breeding to make that easy buck. LAWDOGS partners with shelters and rescues to find outstanding detection dog prospects among homeless animals. LAWDOGS has developed a very small breeding program to produce purpose bred dogs specifically for detection work for times when acceptable rescue dogs are not available.

Taxpayers should insist that police departments utilize acceptable free or low cost animals before they spend several thousand on an untrained "green" dog from Europe or a dog vendor.

There is a "myth" perpetrated by trainers and dog venders who make big bucks importing shepherds and malinois from their buddies in Europe. That myth is that there is a shortage of good detection dogs in America. This is simply not true. 
It is time agencies wake up and use AMERICA'S own working breed! The toughest, most determined dog on the planet.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Maraty said:


> Im not sure where you live.. And if your trying to say Pitbulls are not used for K9 Units. Your wrong. Pitbulls have been used by the police for ages now. Also
> US Customs (aka CBP) also uses them as narcotic sniffer dogs.
> 
> Because they are a "fad breed" right now, there are literally thousands of pit bulls being euthanized in American shelters every week. There simply aren't enough homes, and breeders keep breeding to make that easy buck. LAWDOGS partners with shelters and rescues to find outstanding detection dog prospects among homeless animals. LAWDOGS has developed a very small breeding program to produce purpose bred dogs specifically for detection work for times when acceptable rescue dogs are not available.
> ...


where did you get that from what I wrote? Obviously I from any other post I have made, I generally make it clear the APBT does everything better than every other breed, they are great contenders, the greatest. I made it clear blue dogs are great dogs for K9 type work. As long as they are still bred as high endurance dogs and not for man aggressive traits. I dont believe gamebred dogs should be used as a k9 dog, of course after training mine while I was working K9s, I come along way from that newb. I agree w/ Colby who said "no one wants a man biting fighting dog" I posted that because it would be IRONIC if the boys in BLUE adopted BLUE working dogs as official K9 for inner city and inner urban work where giant pit bulls are respected and FEARED, how intimitdating would that be? LOL Wow, just reread everything you wrote, amazing it doesn't make sense to what I posted at all.


----------



## Maraty (Jan 11, 2010)

hmm... ok thank you for pointing that out.. I guess Im having a tense day..

I guess the part where you wrote "wouldnt it be funny" ect.. Through me off.. sorry about that.

Made me think you didnt already know that they were using them already..

Have good one.. And thanks for clearing it up with out biting my head off.. Some would of just gone off..


----------



## Mom_of_Kambo (Nov 11, 2009)

los44 said:


> i would expect an apbt bred to standard and when i say standard i mean bred for the [] to protect/defend its home from outsiders. but since apbt's are bred to a different standard today, to expect an apbt that has been bred to a different standard to behave like the apbt of old is not logical. jmo
> 
> the apbt the gamedog is dead, viva the apbt the athlete. ive accepted this even though i dont like it....the truth hurts sometimes
> 
> the apbt is no longer a working dog in my eyes! "BUT" if you fancy weight pulling, obedience, agility competitions then i can understand if you still consider the apbt a working dog.


MY OPINION.. when someone says "working" dog..I think of a dog that will help me get done what needs be gotten done around the house farm yard whatever... That's just my opinion. I don't think of a "working" dog as an aggressive type of dog. JUST MY OPINION.... NOBODY GET HOSTILE PLEASE..:rain:


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Mom_of_Tex said:


> MY OPINION.. when someone says "working" dog..I think of a dog that will help me get done what needs be gotten done around the house farm yard whatever... That's just my opinion. I don't think of a "working" dog as an aggressive type of dog. JUST MY OPINION.... NOBODY GET HOSTILE PLEASE..:rain:


:woof:EXACTLY!:woof:

Except for hunting....then it should be HELL on the prey.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ahh thats horsesht!.. JK really,, LOL I was just watching several k9 videos and thought blue dogs would ironically be great dogs for the boys in blue.... But your right; in more ways than one.. Defensivness comesout when I get taken out of context, I done my best not to be an A$$, LOL thats like tellin a frog not to croak.. Hahahahahaha anyway have a good one....... Im out


----------



## rednose504 (Jan 10, 2010)

trust me the GAme dog isnt dead... ther is alot more curs aroind ... but ther are plenty of real game dogs in the USA , you just gotta know people. and IMO they are better than the greats of the past


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

My neighbors APBT is a game dog... The guy I got lex from, his dogs are 'game dogs' but mostly pets - you could tell he loved his dogs but was a little 'misguided' on breeding standards  (too many expecting at once) ... I've always wondered though, what makes the apbt exceptionally better at being a game dog vs. the following:

Beagle
Blood hound
Dachshund 
English Fox Hound
French Hounds
Labrador Retriever

Typically when i think of 'game dog' breeds I think of hound groups or sporting dogs & was curious


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Lex's Guardian said:


> My neighbors APBT is a game dog... The guy I got lex from, his dogs are 'game dogs' but mostly pets - you could tell he loved his dogs but was a little 'misguided' on breeding standards  (too many expecting at once) ... I've always wondered though, what makes the apbt exceptionally better at being a game dog vs. the following:
> 
> Beagle
> Blood hound
> ...


Here is the definition of 'game dog'=> Gamedog - A proven game, deep game or dead game fighting dog 
The dogs you listed lack gameness(also Not fighting dogs), gamedog and hunting/hound/Retrieving dogs are completly different things.
Also most forgot to answer your question, The APBT is best cause thats what it was bred to do. Bred to be the ultimate pit dog, the best in canine combat, won't back down from any challenge, and won't quit figthing until his/her heart stops beating.


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Game dog as in dog fighting? I thought game dog was the same reference as hunting?

My babysitter's husband had a slew of English Fox Hounds he referenced as game dogs - for the game of deer/hog hunting


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Lex's Guardian said:


> Game dog as in dog fighting? I thought game dog was the same reference as hunting?
> 
> My babysitter's husband had a slew of English Fox Hounds he referenced as game dogs - for the game of deer/hog hunting


This is my outlook some may disagree.
I don't know the best way to word this.
To get the 'game' part in gamedog the dog must first be tested. To test a dog would be to consecutively scratch a dog after tiring. Then if the dog shows he is game, you can give him the title of being a gamedog. In terms of APBTs if you own a dog that is gamebred(coming from game proving lines) that doesn't mean that your dog is game. He must first be tested.
So if your babysitters husband game tests his dogs then he can call them them gamedogs.


----------



## rednose504 (Jan 10, 2010)

Mcleod15 said:


> This is my outlook some may disagree.
> I don't know the best way to word this.
> To get the 'game' part in gamedog the dog must first be tested. To test a dog would be to consecutively scratch a dog after tiring. Then if the dog shows he is game, you can give him the title of being a gamedog. In terms of APBTs if you own a dog that is gamebred(coming from game proving lines) that doesn't mean that your dog is game. He must first be tested.
> So if your babysitters husband game tests his dogs then he can call them them gamedogs.


how do you game test a beagle?
people are thinking games as two diffrent defnitions for dogs. game for a pitbull does not apply for other dogs... they just dont have it


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Yeaaah I'm totally confused to what ya'll are referring to as game testing. And no, the gentleman I knew had working english fox hounds that did a job well done when hunting but never 'game tested' - no need...


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

rednose504 said:


> how do you game test a beagle?
> people are thinking games as two diffrent defnitions for dogs. game for a pitbull does not apply for other dogs... they just dont have it


I don't know if you could gametest a beagle, and I'm not sayin you can, but to says its impossible would be ignorant there just might be a game beagle some where in this world its unlikely but nothing is impossible. There might be a beagle you can put in the box that could fight for hours.
If you reference my first post to lex you will see where I stated that the dogs listed lack gameness. Also Gameness just doesn't apply to pitbulls either. There are others breeds of dogs that are game besides APBTs.


----------



## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

Actually to be truly game as in a dogman's idea of gameness, there is only one breed, and that is an apbt. It is possible to have a game amstaff (there have been some), and also possibly a staffy bull. However, for the true dogman's version of a gamedog, a beagle can not be, it just does not happen. Even breeds lke Tosa's and bandogs do not make the cut. Now a dog can be gamey as in plucky, or have heart, but that is another story. 
And to the original poster, I believe the apbt or the amstaff, Has all the qualities to be considered a true working dog. They (a good one)have all the tools to make it so:Athletic ability, drive, heart and as a rule, good nerve. However, they were originally, and some still are bred for the square.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Before I left Oklahoma you were able to pit a dog and a hog against each other legally, its catch work practice... LOL thats was where you could go see if your dog could go the distance(using pit rules). There were scratch pits made up to test dogs against the roughest of wild boar. There was a hard mouthed _eli kill dog_ out there small town near Tulsa Oklahoma. Tested on hogs then shipped over seas put CH in front of his name came back, and continued to get loose and grab any hog any could until his dying day. LOL HE COULD KILL WILD HOGS W/1 BITE, he was under 55lbs... SO yeh, thats one of many APBTS prove they are the true game bred bulldog brought up in stock work. The laws changed in Oklahoma and the place I was talking about no longer pits dogs and hogs though they can still come up w/ a game test using 1 dog and 1 wild boar just no pit the pig has to be able to escape, so they do it in the wild... Its virtually the same as what is read in the books only a pig is given a heavy heavy weight advantage and the dog is ran for 2hrs minimum before catchwork. I DO NOT MEAN FERAL PIGS, I MEAN TRUE WILD BOAR big mean tusky bastages..


----------



## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Ive never participated in any sort of testing, but from my understanding a game dog can only be tested in the box. But that's only because I have little to no knowledge on the actual practice, so I can't say wether I think testing against hogs or other wild animals is proving game, and I can't say I disagree either. But to answer the OP, if they have the drive and the heart to finish a task, then they are working dogs. If a dog folds before achieving the task the handler puts them to, then they lack one, if not several traits a working dog should have.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

StaffyDaddy said:


> Ive never participated in any sort of testing, but from my understanding a game dog can only be tested in the box. But that's only because I have little to no knowledge on the actual practice, so I can't say wether I think testing against hogs or other wild animals is proving game, and I can't say I disagree either. But to answer the OP, if they have the drive and the heart to finish a task, then they are working dogs. If a dog folds before achieving the task the handler puts them to, then they lack one, if not several traits a working dog should have.


Well said...


----------



## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Thank you. Just gotta give my two cents. If it works, I'll feed it.


----------



## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> Before I left Oklahoma you were able to pit a dog and a hog against each other legally, its catch work practice... LOL thats was where you could go see if your dog could go the distance(using pit rules). There were scratch pits made up to test dogs against the roughest of wild boar. There was a hard mouthed _eli kill dog_ out there small town near Tulsa Oklahoma. Tested on hogs then shipped over seas put CH in front of his name came back, and continued to get loose and grab any hog any could until his dying day. LOL HE COULD KILL WILD HOGS W/1 BITE, he was under 55lbs... SO yeh, thats one of many APBTS prove they are the true game bred bulldog brought up in stock work. The laws changed in Oklahoma and the place I was talking about no longer pits dogs and hogs though they can still come up w/ a game test using 1 dog and 1 wild boar just no pit the pig has to be able to escape, so they do it in the wild... Its virtually the same as what is read in the books only a pig is given a heavy heavy weight advantage and the dog is ran for 2hrs minimum before catchwork. I DO NOT MEAN FERAL PIGS, I MEAN TRUE WILD BOAR big mean tusky bastages..


kind of hard to believe a pit under 55 pounds could kill a wild hog with one bite im not saying it isnt true just hard to believe


----------



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

They will refer to hunting dogs as game like site hounds but it has a different meaning than a game APBT. IMO the only way an APBT can be game tested is by being in the []. Many ppl who hunt hogs will disagree but IMO a hog is the not that same and another APBT.

So most ppl do not have game APBT's they can have gamebred dogs like I have but not game unless they are matching dogs illegally. It still happens today or we would not have gamebred dogs today. Think about it, all the game tested stock in my dog's ped is not pre 1976....... food for thought


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Bethb2007 said:


> Actually to be truly game as in a dogman's idea of gameness, there is only one breed, and that is an apbt. It is possible to have a game amstaff (there have been some), and also possibly a staffy bull. However, for the true dogman's version of a gamedog, a beagle can not be, it just does not happen. Even breeds lke Tosa's and bandogs do not make the cut. Now a dog can be gamey as in plucky, or have heart, but that is another story.


They are the gamest of all breeds________ but to say they are the only breed of dog that can be game IMO is false. 


gxkon said:


> kind of hard to believe a pit under 55 pounds could kill a wild hog with one bite im not saying it isnt true just hard to believe


sometimes the APBT is put up on this supernatural pedestal. NOT trying to discredit firehazards story cause anything is POSSIBLE!!!!


----------



## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

I've heard that "one bite" story more times than I can count. Never seen it with my own 2 unless I count bird and rabbits. I've had to shoot more than one opossum that was worked on by at least one dog. Stuff don't die in real life like it does on tv.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

*LONG POST*

_Its all reallly simple.. alaunt+wild animals= pitting alaunt tames 3500lbs bulls= bulldog bullbaitng/bearbaiting become illegal = pitting dogs against each other= Pit Bulldog_ 
The game gene that is admired now in the lil dogs is the oldest purest canine gene IMO next that of some wolf species. It is that "Game" gene that man admired back when so he tamed the wild dog, pitted it against savage beasts bred the ones the ruled obviously back then if it didn't win it wasn't alive. Later of course they went to the pit against each other in a matching contest to prove bloodlines and dogs merit. LOL your right many think they have a game dog, I CHALLENGE anyone to have a good ol boy take you out to find a Russo/Euro 300lb razorback/boar/hog after of course your dog has ran for at a minimum of 2hrs, and your dog should be no bigger than 75lbs, LOL you could try a big slow slug watch him get massacared. I have seen many show APBTs lines used as hog dogs,, tsk tsk tsk we have curs in our breed.. *But also* some of the best hog dogs Lar san, Sarona, *Norrod* >(the best I seen personally; in HAWAII, she could BLEED a pig but those are feral hogs}not quite as nasty, but tusky and nasty still the same) Any way if you do the numbers you will find a way to game test APBTs in a hunting manor, IRONIC considerding thats how the GAME gene originated. To engage and not once try to disengage hold on w/sheer grit letting the other animal wear itself out, of course when the animal is 250lbs-3000lbs that requires a lil more than strength and drive. _There was a video of a 2 BLUE nosed BLUE BRINDLE dogs in GREAT GAME DOG WORKING CONDITION working a MONSTER BULL that was loose looked like IOWA, I thought I had saved it but apparently youtube.com removed the file.. I didn't know youtube.com removed anything. LOL But the dogs proved themselves good workers who ever was videoing though is an a$$ he let his dogs die from no coaching efforts just letting the dogs get the bull. The bull whipped one dog so hard on the pavement of the 2lane highway it just dropped, the other eventually was tossed HIGH^ and landed w/out effort to get back up  _ I was saddend by this because "Hooch" my dog handled a big bull the same size saving my landlords life as the bull had him in a corner. As soon as Mr. K was free, I Hooch drop, ... Drop it! and he did so reluctantly after several more out bursts while reaching over and smacking the bull on the [email protected]@ w/ a long golf flag pole. I never game tested him but every dog man that seen him told me to cherish him hes a one of a kind.. I didn't know what that ment, now I do and hes to old to stud or do much other than house dog around. 
_I have searched all night for that eli kill dog with no luck.  I found my 2001 folder but the website from back then doesn't even get a hit on Google, but those who know the man will know the story is true. Professional BBall player had dogs coming out of Sperry, Okla back in 2001. He had the best Eli dog in the nation IMO and many others at that time as well.. Thats all the hint I will give. Its a small enough world some should know. _


----------



## los44 (Jun 1, 2008)

Mwom_of_Tex said:


> MY OPINION.. when someone says "working" dog..I think of a dog that will help me get done what needs be gotten done around the house farm yard whatever... That's just my opinion. I don't think of a "working" dog as an aggressive type of dog. JUST MY OPINION.... NOBODY GET HOSTILE PLEASE..:rain:


If you mentioned working dog with any other breed I would agree but the apbt's work was the box. aggression is often associated with gameness, they are not one and the same. So you could have a working dog that's a working dog thats not aggressive...ya dig lol


----------



## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

Ah the elusive "gameness"...

Well, as far as the subject of the thread goes, "are pit bull dogs still working dogs?" and what was outlined in the OP, nothing involved gameness. That was all really about prey drive. In which case I must respond yes, they are still working dogs. Yes, they typically have a high prey drive. The APBT would not be my first choice for property protection however. It's purpose-bred tendency to grab and hold regardless of what's going on can be a tremendous liability and weakness if the dog were to square up against a number of intruding wolves. In this sense, a game dog as meant in the APBT could be very disadvantageous in certain property protection situations. If one seeks to even the numbers, employing more dogs, then there comes the chance of those dogs fighting amongst themselves. Again, not really productive. So for those reasons I would personally look elsewhere when selecting a breed for the purpose of property protection.

I am one that is becoming of the belief that the game APBT of yore are a dying breed. I've heard many sound and compelling arguments that state the only method to truly test the gameness of a dog is in the pit. That activities such as boar hunting do not fully test the dogs gameness. That the dog is either killed or the boar taken down before the gameness of a dog can truly be tested. It's then their opinion that the pit is the most effective arena to gauge the gameness of a dog and compare that it to another. Due to the legality surrounding such an activity, there is a great difficulty in maintaining proven game APBT. Due to the elusiveness of the gameness trait, the ease in which it can be lost, and the rarity to which the gameness of a pup will surpass that of the sire, the levels that were achieved in the past will most likely become unobtainable. That's not to say a true APBT is not a game dog.

Anyways I'm admittedly confused as to why gameness was brought up into relation with the OP but shrug. Also gameness in dogs such as working terriers and the testing involved is distinctly different from that of the original APBT. This is why you will have those that maintain an APBTs gameness is unique, only being able to be tested in the pit against another game APBT, while still having working terriers and other dogs referred to as game dogs. I've read of dogs such as wolfhounds being game bred for the purpose of fighting wolves going through similar game testing as the APBT however, so to each their own.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

There are forms of gameness. There are catch dogs that will scratch and hold till death...i dont care what anyone says...that is game. For a dog to catch and hold a wild beast that out weighs the dog and can throw it around is game if the dog doesnt quit.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

This is a modern day super dog that is as game as they come.
http://www.deindioslatinosdogos.com/slike/galerija/novo/Quebracho_de_Los_Medanos_001.jpg


----------



## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

Sampsons Dad said:


> There are forms of gameness. There are catch dogs that will scratch and hold till death...i dont care what anyone says...that is game. For a dog to catch and hold a wild beast that out weighs the dog and can throw it around is game if the dog doesnt quit.


Yes, there are forms, and there are also levels. There are many who will argue that for the APBT in particular there are no condoned activities that can adequately measure the full depth of the dogs gameness. The only time an APBTs gameness were to truly be tested was hours into a fight with a supposedly equal game APBT.

This is in essence what was at the heart of perspectives that simply because a dog could win did not mean it was game. It was a matter of if the dog had adequately been put into a position where it's game could be tested. If another dog had yet to do so, then some would refrain from saying that the dog is infact game proven. This is regardless of how many fights the dog has behind it's belt.

All true APBTs are game. The level to which however is highly variable and the strict standards that were once applied are very rarely done so today (and rightfully so I don't condone dog fighting in any way, I simply appreciate this particular trait of the dog and acknowledge where it's genesis began). While we can pit the APBT against all forms of creature, there are those true to tradition that will argue to their graves that only another game APBT can truly test it's game. A test of game against a bull or a boar will not necessarily depend on game as much as athletic ability, agility, bite strength, etc, that are all variables other then game. This is because these beasts can quite easily kill the dog given the opportunity before it's gameness is tested. That's not to take away from the impressiveness of the feat of taking on a bull or boar, it's just to say to many it would not be an accurate test of game. A dog then that is game proven against boars and bulls may very well be of little note to some game fanciers in certain circles.

I personally have a terribly hard time making up my mind on all this "black art" breeding. In all honesty, the level of gameness we are talking about at this point, do to the legality, ethics, etc, is inapplicable in today's modern society and therefore there is very little demand for it.


----------



## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

N ...not all pit bulls are game....there are some rank curs in the pit bull world ...I know because I rescued and rehomed some dogs that turned tail and ran away fro certain challenges.

And the truth is most game tests didnt go for hours, and tales of 2 hour joints are few and far between


----------



## los44 (Jun 1, 2008)

Demios said:


> Anyways I'm admittedly confused as to why gameness was brought up into relation with the OP but shrug. Also gameness in dogs such as working terriers and the testing involved is distinctly different from that of the original APBT. This is why you will have those that maintain an APBTs gameness is unique, only being able to be tested in the pit against another game APBT, while still having working terriers and other dogs referred to as game dogs. I've read of dogs such as wolfhounds being game bred for the purpose of fighting wolves going through similar game testing as the APBT however, so to each their own.


I mention gameness because it is part of what I consider a working apbt.


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Demios said:


> The only time an APBTs gameness were to truly be tested was hours into a fight with a supposedly equal game APBT.
> 
> All true APBTs are game.


Another way to test gameness in APBTs is to consecutively scratch a dog into a fresh opponent.

Not all true APBTs are game this is my opinion of course.


----------



## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

Sorry for the delay in response, been busy.


Sampsons Dad said:


> And the truth is most game tests didnt go for hours, and tales of 2 hour joints are few and far between


I didn't say they did. I made no comment on the length of game tests. I simply said it would be some people's opinion that a dogs game can only be truly tested at these incredible lengths. My mentioning of it is simply to illustrate opinions on dog fighting as the only true game testing method for pit bulls as opposed to say bull baiting, hog baiting, badger baiting, and other methods that have been used to test the gameness of dogs. I myself have not really made a conclusion on the matter. I'm in no way an advocate of dog fighting and never experienced it. I simply research it to understand more of my dog's history.

As for the true APBT gameness comment. It's due to the hereditary nature of gameness that I say this. I would be highly suspect of both the pedigree and the psychology (as conditioning is an amazing thing) of a true APBT that demonstrated no gameness. It would, imho, be a freak of nature or a result of highly selective breeding to be a true APBT with no game. It sort of flies in the face of the hereditary nature of gameness and sort of reduces the selective breeding that APBTs went through to a gruesome practice in futility. The reason I even acknowledge a notable distinction between the AST and the APBT is because of the distinctly different breeding programs the two went through. In an oversimplified sense, what went into the pits were bull and terrier mixes, AST, what came out was the APBT. APBT is about game, AST about conformation. This is my perspective however and accept it won't be universally agreed with. To me a true American *Pit* Bull Terrier would be one with fighting stock in it's pedigree, thus the pit part of the name. Otherwise, why not call it an AST?

Los44, I can understand that and agree. I wouldn't say gameness is a requirement for a working dog (depending on the work), though it will typically be of great benefit. However I'd agree that gameness is definitely a quality one would expect in a working APBT.


----------

