# Game??



## Nation (Sep 27, 2006)

I dont want to start an argument about this I am just curious I have seen many people here say that there dog is game. I have my opinion on gameness thats what it is an opinion so I could be wrong. 

But for you owners who say your dog is Game how did you come to this conclusion. Was it because your pedigree has Gamedogs in its history or is there something your pet does to prove it?


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## tjy52 (Oct 4, 2006)

Good post as long as nobody gets too hot over it. I'm interested in hearing what everyone says. I've heard that gameness is a style of pit (leaner/lighter and more agile than the bully type). I've also heard that it is an attitude (never give up). Some say it can only be proven by fighting and others believe weight pull etc. can prove the trait. 

The fuzzy thing to me is, 1- can a bully type pit also be considered game? and, 2- can a "game bred dog" (both parents proven to be game) be proven not to be game?

My girl is developing into a leaner body style, but I just consider her a dog.


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

Just because both parents are "fighters" so to speak, doesn't mean they will produce pups that are "game". To me, the only way to tell if a dog is game, is to put him in the box. (my opinion only).


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## Shadyw (Feb 21, 2006)

I think it depends on who you talk to. The game built dogs (the leaner terrier type) can be with out game. Game to me is something that comes from the heart of the dog. It perseveres in everthing it does no matter how hard or how long it takes. Gameness is courage & spirit up:


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## APBTenthusiast (Oct 31, 2006)

Bullygirl807 said:


> Just because both parents are "fighters" so to speak, doesn't mean they will produce pups that are "game". To me, the only way to tell if a dog is game, is to put him in the box. (my opinion only).


Could you clerify your post please? Are you for fighting Pits to see if they are "game".

Just curious.


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

APBTenthusiast said:


> Could you clerify your post please? Are you for fighting Pits to see if they are "game".
> 
> Just curious.


Nowhere in my post did I indicate that I fight dogs. It is all in the opinion of whom you're asking. Although illegal, a true dogman will game test a dog most likely by fighting. To all other pitbull lovers, they test gameness by determination, willingness and eagerness to complete the task at hand. I personally am in favor of a "gamebred" dog and the bloodlines associated with it and to answer your question, no I am not for fighting dogs.


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## littleboyblue (Feb 19, 2006)

*well*

I have never stated that I own "game" dogs, I have always noted that I owned "gamebred" dogs meaning Thiier pedigrees may indicate that they come from "gamedogs" or game lines but I hvae never put them to the test and never will..as for a non-quit attitude and willingness to do anything .. they all are even my blues..

hereis one of my "gamebred" dogs the other 3 i cant find a pic that will fit on here right now of them..


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

tjy52.
The fuzzy thing to me is said:


> Typically bully dogs are not game,ive never seen it,i have seen dog aggro bully types,but in general,because of the bull dog influence they are of a more mellow temperment...Although it has been said that certain strains of american bulldog *where* game,actually it was said they were dead game in Semencics first book but who knows.
> it was the "painter" line that developed into a line called "painter/ margentina"which were known catch dogs,so if this blood line was used to cross into a game bred and tested apbt,then into say a bullier type blue or whatever,in theroy it is possable that the pups could show some signs of gameness,possable but highly unlikely.Gameness is one of the hardest traits to pass down through generation throug generation so definetly not all game bred pups are game,but theyll definetly be harder dogs then say dogs bred from somebodys back yard or a pet/show breeding..
> I believe most folks here who say there dogs are game,are saying this not because its proven,but because the lines there from,which is cool,we dont need a bunch of fools game testing there dogs and bragging about it on this sight anyways..


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

littleboyblue said:


> I have never stated that I own "game" dogs, I have always noted that I owned "gamebred" dogs meaning Thiier pedigrees may indicate that they come from "gamedogs" or game lines but I hvae never put them to the test and never will..
> 
> hereis one of my "gamebred" dogs the other 3 i cant find a pic that will fit on here right now of them..


That was my exact point !!! By the way, nice looking pup !!! I too prefer "gamebred" dogs


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## APBTenthusiast (Oct 31, 2006)

Bullygirl807 said:


> Nowhere in my post did I indicate that I fight dogs. It is all in the opinion of whom you're asking. Although illegal, a true dogman will game test a dog most likely by fighting. To all other pitbull lovers, they test gameness by determination, willingness and eagerness to complete the task at hand. I personally am in favor of a "gamebred" dog and the bloodlines associated with it and to answer your question, no I am not for fighting dogs.


I apologize for not understanding your post. I wasn't sure what you were saying which is why I asked you to please elaborate.

I am glad you are against it!:thumbsup:


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

No problem at all. Everyone has their own personal views and opinions when it comes to the APBT. I usually tend to keep my opinions and outlook on them to myself as some may not always agree. Not saying that my views are right, but its what works for me. Unfortunatley, "gamedog" owners and "show" owners don't usually see eye to eye. But its nice to know we all show awesome love and admiration for the breed.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Im guessing that it would have to do with the game dog blood lines... You cant have a Gotti And say that its game bred when thats not a game line... My dogs are clouse mayfield and they are game lines, so they are game dogs. I have seen my dog do things that my other friends larger dogs would quit.. IE-play a running game intill near exhaustion, play foot ball with a huge rip in his tounge and keep going, not noticing the blood.. To me, those are easy ways of telling gameness... I heard that you can Roll a dog to tell if its game... I have no idea what that means at all.. I dont think its good tho, i hear dogs die from it?? 
If Harley is playing with a foot ball, passing it back and forth between people, He wont stop!!! I mean we are dying and hes like, "where'd it go" I have seen my friends dogs quit way before he would!!!
I dont know, to me thats a game sign
OFK!!! Where are you!!! Hehe:stick:


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## YJSONLY (Oct 11, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> OFK!!! Where are you!!! Hehe:stick:


there is a show this weekend....


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## Shadyw (Feb 21, 2006)

Here is a game looking bitch & she was also gamey I owned. She was about 1 yr. old in this pic at a show I think about 1978. I believe her breeding was Sorrell.


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

Sorrells is an awsome line! I had a Sorrells male that looked similar to her.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Yes we have a show this weekend but Im not leaving until about 3am.

First of all I wont say that there arent any game bully dogs out there but if there are they are few and far between. Second on the bully issue, even if it was game it would have a hard time in the pit due to wind and running hot. Alot of matches go well over the 1 hour mark.

Second just because both parents were game, even deep game does not mean the offspring will be. That is why culling, or selective breeding was so important. If both parents were game you are usually guranteed only that your dog will be GAMEBRED. There is a difference. This is why not all the great pit winners are ROM. ONly a few were. YOu could have a litter of 10 and only get 1 real game on out of the bunch.

I belive the TRUEST test of gameness comes in the box. Now that it is illegal, and I do not approve of it in any way, I think we have to settle with testing for Heart!!!!!


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

exactly,
gameness is a obsolete trait out side the fighting pit.Heart and extreme drive is more of a better term for todays super drivey dogs..


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Maybe the definition of "game" has changed with today's dogs.


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## tjy52 (Oct 4, 2006)

Thank you OFK.:goodpost:

I don't think the distinction was really clear on previous threads between "game" and "gamebred".



Shadyw said:


> Here is a game looking bitch & she was also gamey I owned. She was about 1 yr. old in this pic at a show I think about 1978. I believe her breeding was Sorrell.


Is this a typical sized "game type" bitch? Do you know about how much she weighed?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

The definnition of "game" will never change. ITs just something we are going to have to learn to overlook. You cant test for it anymore. Now you have to go for heart or drive. They are different but the law is the law.


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## Shadyw (Feb 21, 2006)

I would say by the time she matured she was maybe 40 lbs. her name was Sally, but we'd call her Dirty Sally. I had her chained up and she'd dig trenches out into the field next door. I would hook up several long chains just to see how far she'd dig. Wish back then I had pics of that. She was pure muscle and loved car rides. She'd sit in the front seat and when you start to slow down to stop she'd put one of her paws up against the dash to brace herself. It was pretty funny to see. I miss her very much


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

hahaha there you are, you are so much better at this then i!!! 
Ya but i agree, i would think that Harley is game, i can see it.. He does have alot of heart!!!
Thanks OFK


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## TheGingerBreadman (Sep 1, 2006)

*Pressure*

I think Pressure is game. He appears to like combat, Chasing, ect. He loves to push his playmates to the point of Fighting. We got ambushed walking one day and pressure was right there to protect me. But all covered in tha other dogs blood trotted home wagging his tail. He makes no noise, juss Intense concentration. I think he likes fighting, he is young i wouldnt say a puppy but he still has a big drive to play with other dogs and he does untill they wrestle, hell hold em down and c'mon if you were bein held down eventually youd get mad. Once tha other one gets mad enough to give a sign of annouance like snarling, snapping, playtime is over and tha bell just rang. He done ran all his playmates off. No other dogs will come over to play anymore. Hes like a bully  But Here lately a couple pups been comin over in tha mornin, one male and one female. I'll stand out there and refferee. when Pressure gets too rough i give em tha "easy!" and bully him a lil. He Played nice after that, but i dont know bout if i aint there. Cuz if i aint there he thinks hes tha man, He thinks "oh i can take myself for a walk" You know. But all in all he listens fine to my Girl. But not like he listens to me. It appears he likes Fighting, and when he scraps he shows no sign of stoping. But Hes a house dog, not a fighter so he probly aint got any wind. But The only way of testing Tha Dogmen meaning of gameness is to Put em in a lil over there head and see how they do. But then Gameness is also tha dogs natural Drive to excel. Like Oldfortkennels Super dogs pullin a [email protected]#%* TON(2730 odd sumthin LB.s) Those dogs ARE GAME


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

My girls don't listen to me the way they listen to Joe, either.


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## TheGingerBreadman (Sep 1, 2006)

*Game Dogs*

http://www.gopitbull.com/pitbullforums/general-discussion/1177-finals-pics.html


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

See my dogs listen, i just gotta get loud... Only in play moad tho...
OMFG I have to tell you guys something that happened yesterday!!!!
Ok i was in the house and the dogs were getting some fresh air, Well, I hear this odd ass sound, so i go looking around the backyard and Pantera is flinging this thing around... Well, im watching her thinking its a stuffed toy.. I watched her for like 20 secs, when i relized what it was........... A squarral(SP) She flung that thing around like it was nothing...... I couldnt believe it!!! She caught it and killed it... Harley wanted a piece to but she was too quick!! Why would she kill it?? Im shocked that she caught it!!!! I asked the breeder and she said they will do that, she feels like shes being protective?? Is that true!! Should i worry at all??:rain:


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

....ROFL 
I've gotta laugh at this one, only because i can only imagine how i would have reacted if it would've me.....rofl

....prey drive is what did it.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

I did laugh, I felt bad for it too.. I hate the damn things!!! But still i let her know that it was bad and she got the point.. But still!! The stealth!!!! Wow!! Those rodents are quick!! and she caught it... Scary.....


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## TheGingerBreadman (Sep 1, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> I did laugh, I felt bad for it too.. I hate the damn things!!! But still i let her know that it was bad and she got the point.. But still!! The stealth!!!! Wow!! Those rodents are quick!! and she caught it... Scary.....


Dictionary says:Fuzzy tailed tree rodents

Good catch though:rofl:


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Hahaha Ya thats what i thought.... she killed it quick!!! Little bitch!!!


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## TheGingerBreadman (Sep 1, 2006)

Pressure Killed a possum that got in tha house. But id like to see his Reaction if he ran up on a Backwoods Louisiana Warf Rat. They Get Big as Dogs and huge orange nasty Teeth. Possums Down there are pretty serious too, They are like little Gangsters Claimin turf and its a Stand off 4 tha Porch. You can hit em wit a Broom But they buck back. Serious Vermin


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## Nation (Sep 27, 2006)

My first pit I had named Judas was super dog aggressive he was from game stock. From the day I brought him home he was dog aggressive and would bite and latch on too any animal outside his immediate family. When I first had him it was scary to see that a puppy that young had that dog aggressiveness in him that young.

I learned quickly I couldnt bring him over to visit friends or families that had a dog because he would immediately try to fight. I had him for 8 years and was one fo the greatest dogs I have ever owned. We owned a cat and not once did he ever show any signs of aggressiveness with the cat or my wife.

I dont consider this being game but if this is what part of being game is I would prefer my dog with less or no game. I think having a lot of heart, drive and willingness to get a job done are all great qualities. But in my opinion owning a high game dog would be alot to handle for your typical dog owner.

Had another question to ask??? Now true game pits were bred to fight I know a little about the history of dog fighting and understand that the dogs had to just be naturally dog aggressive because they had to be willing to fight any dog that was put in front of them.

Todays pit is a little different because it seems more and more of them are becoming less animal aggressive. Does this mean even game breeders are toning down there breeding with more companion type dogs. Or were gamedogs just raised in a totally different way.


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

Here is a link to my dogs. They are all game bred. Feel free to enjoy !!!

http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/luvmypit807/


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Bullygirl807 said:


> Here is a link to my dogs. They are all game bred. Feel free to enjoy !!!
> 
> http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/luvmypit807/


Great looking dogs!!!!!!


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

Thanks redog. Not all of them are in tip top shape but we're working on it. We're very proud of our dogs.


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

*OOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!* I LOOOOVE Blade!!!! :hug: 

Is he solid black?


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

He has very little white on his chest. Sorry,we no longer have him.


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

I seen this on another forum and thought some of you guys might be interested .

This is a true story about one of the gamest scratches ever witnessed. A story of a great dog , outgunned, nearly destroyed, but absolutely indomitable. The dog was Toney (notice the “old-fashion “ spelling), purchased by Bob Wallace early in his career. Toney was a great-grandson of Searcy Jeff, and when later bred to Madame Queen (a daughter of Searcy Jeff), Toney sired King Cotton , an ace pit dog that (along with Toney) became the cornerstone for the Wallace Bloodlines. Toney had won prior matches, and after this one he was retired to a luxurios life at stud.
Toney had won his previous matches on heart, as he was not blessed with more than average talent in any category. No one ever dreamed, though, just how much heart this little dog actually had. At least, not until the match in Rulesville, Mississippi, in the early forties. Toney was matched into Slim Emerson’s Ted, a titan that was later to become famous in his marathon match with Corvino’s Thunder.
When the dogs were released, Ted went immediately into Toney’s shoulder. For those who are not aware, a broken bone is a rarity in dog-fighting because pit dogs are just plain hard to hurt. Bob had no way of knowing the shoulder was broken and not just temporarily disabled. Toney gave no hint of it, for his tail was up and wagging,, and he always managed to have a hold some place. But, because of the handicap, Ted was ahead all the way. Toney occasionally obtained an advantage, but it was always short lived ; his enthusiasm for the contest never faltered. Finally, Ted got into Toney’s other shoulder, and this time there was no doubt that the shoulder was broken. At, an hour and forty minutes, Bob picked up Toney, thereby conceding the match.
Torn by the emotion and worried that he had left his dog down too long, Bob nevertheless put him down for a seemingly impossible courtesy scratch. Actually, Bob just wanted to see if he was interested in trying to scratch. Who could have dreamed he would actually make it! Slowly and awkwardly, but with an intensity and determination that brought the crowd to its feet, Toney started his arduous journey across the pit. Inching along, both front legs completely useless, Toney pushed with his rear feet. Two or three times he rolled completely over his back in order to correct his course toward his opponent when his obstinate front end had actually obstructed him. When after a full two minutes Toney finally reached his opponent, he had to be broken off with a stick! Bob, tears streaming down his face, picked up Toney and wrapped him in a blanket. The crowd stood and applauded for a full ten minutes. And Bob Wallace was not the only one who was crying!


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Pretty harsh post , isnt it bully?


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

redog said:


> Pretty harsh post , isnt it bully?


Its what true gameness is all about thou isn't it?


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

I do agree!!!!!!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Yess its harsh but there never is anything exactly pretty about fighting. Yess its definintely true gameness there.

I want to be clear here and make a point, back then the fight was about the dogs! Notice that the dog was retired and not put down because it lost. Now adays the thugs are in it for the money and when a good dog finally losess the put it down!! I think its soo stupid.

While harsh that was inspiring and a great post. I dont belive in fighting but you have to ADMIRE the heart that dog had. You cant read it and not be in awe of that dog! Its amazing what these dogs can do. Its a shame that we are at a point in this dogs history where we as humans have screwed them up so much that we are in danger of losing them.

What I dont get is back in the early 60's and 70's you had all these pits being fought and in American homes but there were no child maulings and people getting eaten by them. Heck we didnt have this problem in the 80's. SO WHAT HAPPENED? DID THE BREED JUST GO BESERK OVER NIGHT *OR* DOES THE PROBLEM LIE IN THE HUMANS THAT OWN THEM NOW??????


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> What I dont get is back in the early 60's and 70's you had all these pits being fought and in American homes but there were no child maulings and people getting eaten by them. Heck we didnt have this problem in the 80's. SO WHAT HAPPENED? DID THE BREED JUST GO BESERK OVER NIGHT *OR* DOES THE PROBLEM LIE IN THE HUMANS THAT OWN THEM NOW??????


Excellant point!! :thumbsup:


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

redog said:


> Pretty harsh post , isnt it bully?


Yeah it's harsh but it's our dogs history like it or not.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

OldFortKennels said:


> Heck we didnt have this problem in the 80's. SO WHAT HAPPENED? DID THE BREED JUST GO BESERK OVER NIGHT *OR* DOES THE PROBLEM LIE IN THE HUMANS THAT OWN THEM NOW??????


IMO the breeds down fall was when people think if they breed in a human aggressive breed you make the APBT the ultimate (guard dog), Wrong! there breeding the APBT with ever breed you can think of to get the ultimate dog not knowing the APBT is the (ultimate dog) :stick:


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

I am impressed by the dogs drive, you make a good point here, fort


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

If you read any of the old books ESPECIALLY STRATTON its often said that looks aside the APBT makes a poor gaurd dog because it was so friendly!


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

There not called the (Nanny dogs) for nothing


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

It is also said in strattons first and best book[imho]that bob wallace was not only a renowned dog man but also a animal lover in general[as strange as it may seem].He spent a fair amount of time rescuing cur breeds just because he liked dogs,it was said by stratton that wallace only matched the apbt because he wanted the dog to be what it was intended to be,and many times the perfect game pit also had a perfect temperment,it was part of the procedures matching his dogs for the total package...Do i believe everything stratton has said about wallace,not really,we know strattons idel was bob wallace and i believe theres alittle romanticizing in those tails,but mr and and mrs wallace seemed like decent folks,with a liking for dogs in general..


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

I thought that it was a great post!!! It goes to prove that pittys will do anything to please their owner, I think that has alot to do with it... That dog had some serious heart!!! I know what Red dog ment by meaning harsh, just the fact what it represented!!! 
And OFK you are right, back in the day, they never killed the dog for losing, they thought of these animals as pets/family memebers.. I have seen alot of the old pics of when they did the dog fighting and see alot of pics of the dogs with kids...Pitbulls arnt people mean, just dog mean..and Harley would go after another dog if i let him... Thats just his breed....... 
I know its odd too say, but i think he would be a great fighter dog.. Just, hes great with people, but dont like other dogs... I couldnt watch him fight tho... Thats so mean...


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## TheGingerBreadman (Sep 1, 2006)

I know its odd too say, but i think he would be a great fighter dog.. Just, hes great with people, but dont like other dogs... I couldnt watch him fight tho... Thats so mean...[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean. People have always been drawn to watch combatants engage in one anothers Demise for entertainment. Tha Romans would Pit Man against man, Man vs Beast just for tha Cheers. You got UFC Fighting, a lil watered down but a few good fighters(tha older fighters were better in my opinion) martial arts, Even school yard scraps make tha kids go nuts. But you cant help but want to watch Two True well trained Fighters who both want it. Watching Real fighters such as Mike tyson in his Early prime, watchin their movement, seein whos dominating tha other just Draws you in. True fighters are born. That long history of hard wired Drive makes for a natural Fighter in Pits so its easy to see how Dog fighting Would Be such an epidemic. All tha fights Pressure Has Been in Bless his heart He Did well. Be it on a walk on tha lead or outside on tha chain even restrained in all scraps He Moved with Precise Balance and power. He dominated like a fighter and that makes me think about him in fights. But im like you i love my dog toooooo much to let him Charge off into Battle Knowing he will be hurt. I just couldnt do it. Even when he got hurt infection set in and i could see he was in pain and misreable it Hurt me.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Could you messure game in "yard accidents"? I think almost everyone who have owned multiple dogs have had an unintentional scrap or two, but that's not really the same as pitting two dogs against each other who were bred and trained their whole lives for that purpose? Mary Jane and Sadies had a HORRIFIC tangle in February. It was the scariest thing I could have imagined watching, but I wouldn't call either of them game because of that. I would call that a freak accident. And I am doing everything in my power to make sure that it NEVER happens again. I don't see how you say you love the dog or the breed and promote that activity. Your heart has to be hardened quite a bit to tolerate that type of brutality. And, if you have to be that hard to be classified as a true dog man/woman, then I'll keep my title as "pet owner," thank you very much.
And I enjoy watching boxing and UFC, but the BIG differnce is that the people fighting each other have a choice, the dogs are just doing what their owners want them to do. When humans lose, they go back to their families who will love them regardless and go on to fight another day. What happens when the dogs lose? What about the "bait" dogs that are nothing more than a living chew toy? 
If fighting is the only measure of true game, then I'll just be content saying my dogs have heart.


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> WHAT HAPPENED? DID THE BREED JUST GO BESERK OVER NIGHT *OR* DOES THE PROBLEM LIE IN THE HUMANS THAT OWN THEM NOW??????


I thinks its more like the humans that chose to breed these fine specimens without doing their research. The dogs couldn't have gotten here without the helping hand of the humans. Now, are beloved breed is in gret danger because of human stupidity and irresponsibility.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Im a big ufc fan,ive got nothing against a good fight..sorry to get off topic here but i think todays ufc fighters are better than ever,i mean the matt hueghs royce gracie fight,hueghes dominated,although you have to wonder if that dudes on roids,the modern mma fighters seem to be a bit more toned and skilled,imho..


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

AAAHHHH another UFC fan. Even though Matt Hughes dominate Hoyce Gracie, he wasn't that impressive to me. He may have a good run for his money when he meets George St. Pierre. I happen to be a huge fan of Ken Shamrock, which by the way I'm very glad he retired and I love Chuck Lidell and Randy Couture as well. Thats my Thursday night ritual and trust me, I don't miss it.:roll:


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I can't wait for the Ortiz vs. Liddel match. That'll be worth watching!!!!


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

yeah, I think so but I'm more excited about Hughes and St. Pierre. I think once given the chance that Diego Sanchez, Forest and Stephan Bonner will make something of themselves in the UFC. I also think Forrest and Stephan Bonner was a damn good fight too. Oh, BTW I HATE TITO ORTIZ, cocky prick ....lol


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Bullygirl807 said:


> yeah, I think so but I'm more excited about Hughes and St. Pierre. I think once given the chance that Diego Sanchez, Forest and Stephan Bonner will make something of themselves in the UFC. I also think Forrest and Stephan Bonner was a damn good fight too. Oh, BTW I HATE TITO ORTIZ, cocky prick ....lol


Ortiz used to really get on my nerves, too, but you can't deny that he is good. And, he's growing up a little @ a time. But, by the time he's fully mature, somebody will be ready to take him out like he did Shamrock. I soooo wanted Shamrock to win against him once, just once, is that too much to ask? But, back in the day, he probably would have...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

yeah i cant wait for that hughes st pierre fight,i live about 10 miles from the arco arena[go kings,lol]were the fight is taking place.Itll also be interesting to watch tim sylvia fight that short huge guy,i think hes a cross out to rihno,lolj/k..Im a liddel fan of course but ive got respect for ortiz,i used to hate him,reminds me of alot of guys around the town im from,lol.Forest whitaker will be a good game fighter and bonners pretty game also,but not enough to make his mark,inmho,diego sanches is another who i dont personaly like but one that will be good.As for shamrock,all i can say is he sure is a glutin for punishment i mean damn,those fights vrs ortiz were ugly and did nothing but build up his confidance,still he cant take liddel...


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I used to hate Ortiz and liked Shamrock until I saw them coach on the series. Then it all changed. I like Ortiz now but Liddel is the man. If Ortiz barely won agains Griffin he is NOT ready for Liddel.

What about Rich Franklin!!!???


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## tjy52 (Oct 4, 2006)

Jeff Monson is the short/huge guy and if he gets a hold of Silvia in the clinch or on the ground we have a new heavyweight champ boys and girls. 5-9, 265 lbs of muscle and stamina...XFC heavyweight champion, Cagewarriors heavyweight champion, Fightsport heavyweight champion, 2X Abu Dhabi world champion. I could go on and on. I think he's grossly underrated for this fight. He's got a concrete head and I don't see Silvia KOing him. By the way, Monson, with all his tats and badass image, has a graduate degree in psychology and worked as a child and family psychologist before deciding to beat people bloody for a living. Keep an eye on that guy UFC fans...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> I used to hate Ortiz and liked Shamrock until I saw them coach on the series. Then it all changed. I like Ortiz now but Liddel is the man. If Ortiz barely won agains Griffin he is NOT ready for Liddel.
> 
> What about Rich Franklin!!!???


I like franklin,hes a great middle weight fighter,but hes no hughes i mean that guys a monster,really,he is brutal,and i believe hes on steriods,just look at his face,the squarness of the jaw and all that muscle on a small frame.Ill agree about ortiz,i did gain some respect for him as a coach after watching the ultimate fighter,hes one hell of a coach and seem like a decent guy.

Jeff Monson is the short/huge guy and if he gets a hold of Silvia in the clinch or on the ground we have a new heavyweight champ boys and girls. 5-9, 265 lbs of muscle and stamina...XFC heavyweight champion, Cagewarriors heavyweight champion, Fightsport heavyweight champion, 2X Abu Dhabi world champion. I could go on and on. I think he's grossly underrated for this fight. He's got a concrete head and I don't see Silvia KOing him. By the way, Monson, with all his tats and badass image, has a graduate degree in psychology and worked as a child and family psychologist before deciding to beat people bloody for a living. Keep an eye on that guy UFC fans...*Man im sure looking foward to this brawl,i love the heavy weight fights,with these dudes its always a flip of the coin,it can always go either way,that andrea arloski was probably a better fighter than slyvia,he just took a bad punch and it was over,this monson guy sounds brutal,i might try and get tickets to this one actually.*


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i think shamrock has always been overrated, ive been following his career for a while now, i believe even in his prime he was overrated.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> I used to hate Ortiz and liked Shamrock until I saw them coach on the series. Then it all changed. I like Ortiz now but Liddel is the man. If Ortiz barely won agains Griffin he is NOT ready for Liddel.
> 
> What about Rich Franklin!!!???


lidell and ortiz already went at it once ortiz said from the start he was gonna stand toe to toe with him... well he did but ended up lossing getting pumeled by lidell. he should have stuck with his bread and butter ground and pound, he showed tons of heart in the fight though


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Im a huge Matt Huges fan but in his last match with BJ he looked voulnerable for the first time! Id say hed better not try to stand with George and just take him to the ground!


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

Definitely a fan of Rich Franklin. He's very down to earth. I too agree that Tito is a great fighter and most certainly is growing up, but still a bit cocky and brash. I too would have loved to see Shamrock rock his a$$ but Ken;s days are over and its time to pass the torch. Tim Sylvia should be great fight. Don'tknowmuch about Forest Whitaker, but Forest Griffin is definitely a new comer with great potential. I agree Diego Sanchez is quite obnoxious but just like Tito I'm sure he'll grow up as he continues to fight some of the top dogs. Everyoen gonna be watching tomorrow night's episode? Of course you know I'll be all eyes on it !!!!


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Bullygirl807 said:


> Definitely a fan of Rich Franklin. He's very down to earth. I too agree that Tito is a great fighter and most certainly is growing up, but still a bit cocky and brash. I too would have loved to see Shamrock rock his a$$ but Ken;s days are over and its time to pass the torch. Tim Sylvia should be great fight. Don'tknowmuch about Forest Whitaker, but Forest Griffin is definitely a new comer with great potential. I agree Diego Sanchez is quite obnoxious but just like Tito I'm sure he'll grow up as he continues to fight some of the top dogs. Everyoen gonna be watching tomorrow night's episode? Of course you know I'll be all eyes on it !!!!


HAHA,
I MENT FORREST GRIFFEN,FOREST WHITAKER WAS A SECOND BASEMAN FOR THE DETRIOT TIGERS,ROFLMAO,MY MISTAKE...:rofl:


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW I hate UFC fighting!!!! I think its Barbaric!!!!! YUCKY!!! hehe You men and your sports!!! hehe JK guys....


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## tjy52 (Oct 4, 2006)

And I believe a destinguished actor too.

I am a huge Andre Aurlovski (sp???) fan. I think that third fight between him and Sylvia was the biggest disappointment of the year for me. They were both so scared of getting KO'd again that they pussy-footed around for an entire 25 minutes! Sylvia won the title on a poorly faught decision. I'm ready to see Andre back in the ring. Some of the best knockouts in UFC history were delivered by him... and his nickname is the Pit Bull, you can't go wrong with that.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

tjy52 said:


> And I believe a destinguished actor too.


There you go,hes a actor!!forest griffens the fighter,and lou whitaker was the ball player,man im havin trouble today...


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

tjy52 said:


> And I believe a destinguished actor too.
> 
> I am a huge Andre Aurlovski (sp???) fan. I think that third fight between him and Sylvia was the biggest disappointment of the year for me. They were both so scared of getting KO'd again that they pussy-footed around for an entire 25 minutes! Sylvia won the title on a poorly faught decision. I'm ready to see Andre back in the ring. Some of the best knockouts in UFC history were delivered by him... and his nickname is the Pit Bull, you can't go wrong with that.


Yup. I seen a couple of his fights and he's a hard hittin sum of a b*tch. What about the new comer Chris Leban or Josh Cosheck (sp?), think they make something of themselves in the UFC?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

if your talkin about the cocky red headed kid named chris,nope he aint gonna be much,jmho.all heart and a bit of skill but nothing special,he already got destroyed in his debut,hes small and hes a tuff dude,but not world class,i believe hes already 2xl,and he lost on the ultimate fighter,i mean were can he go from there?


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## littleboyblue (Feb 19, 2006)

*i dont*

watch that .. but my rother is in training with them right now. .. and I think will bein his first ring fight in spring of this year...


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## tjy52 (Oct 4, 2006)

cane76 said:


> if your talkin about the cocky red headed kid named chris,nope he aint gonna be much,jmho.all heart and a bit of skill but nothing special,he already got destroyed in his debut,hes small and hes a tuff dude,but not world class,i believe hes already 2xl,and he lost on the ultimate fighter,i mean were can he go from there?


Agreed. He'll have a career in it for a while, but he'll never contend in that weight class. The 185 pounders are a tough bunch right now.

Josh Koscheck (sp?) is going to do good things, but again, in his weight class he's got Hughes, St. Pierre, BJ Penn, Diego Sanches, Nick Diaz, Joe Stevenson and on and on. He's got his work cut out for him. I think he can beat a lot of those guys, but remember, Diego Sanches knocked him out of the show decisively and none of them are in the same class as Hughes.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

littleboyblue said:


> watch that .. but my rother is in training with them right now. .. and I think will bein his first ring fight in spring of this year...


That is awsome. We'll be rooting for him!!! :woof:


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## NateDG72 (Dec 8, 2006)

Sorry about bringing up this old thread but I felt the need to give my opinion on this subject.

You cannot prove gameness through any sport but dog fighting, not weight pull, not agility, not yard work, nor springpole. Since dog fighting is illegal in most places(not to mention cruel and inhumane) almost noone on here could know if their dog is game. 

Gameness is a trait similar to most of the answers here, but different in a very important way. Gameness indicates a dogs willingness to scratch in a fight no matter what condition it is in. This means the dog is willing to charge its opponent despite exhaustion, despite having half its face ripped off, despite all the injuries it suffered throughout a match, despite losing half its blood its still trying to kill its opponent.

I despise dog fighting, but I respect what these animals did under the circumstances. A truly game pit should be the definition of never say die. Now things have changed and we realize how cruel dog fighting is (most of us) and have found new purposes for our APBT's. They bring the spirit of gameness to everything they do, but would I define a dog good at this or that game? No, because the dog doesn't even begin to face anywhere near the physical exhaustion and physical injuries a fighting dog endured in a match.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

The closest test for gameness is catch work,and even then the battles are pretty short,either the hunter kills the hog or the hog hurts or kills the dog within a few minutes...Gameness will continue to pop up in apbt litters weather its tested for or not,youll just never know if youve got it...


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

Hmmm... i double posted....could someone delete this?


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

there is a huge difference between being gam-bred and game.

A game-bred dog, can still be a cur, just because it is game bred doesnt mean it will be game. A game bred dog comes from proven game dogs.

A game dog, is a dog who has been tested and proven game. 

There is only ONE way to find out if a dog is game, and that is dog fighting. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

Many think that weight pull can test a dog game, it cannot!


Oh and i must add; just because your dog has gotten into a little scrap fight with a dog doesnt make it game. Just because your dog is dog aggerssive doesnt make it game.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

KingofthePIT said:


> there is a huge difference between being gam-bred and game.
> 
> A game-bred dog, can still be a cur, just because it is game bred doesnt mean it will be game. A game bred dog comes from proven game dogs.
> 
> ...


very true....


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ya that is true...... How do you know that your dog is game bred..I mean fighting pittys was banished how long ago?? 30 years ago... so that could be like 25 generations...Or 20, I dont know... Do you know just from bloodlines....:rain:


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> Ya that is true...... How do you know that your dog is game bred..I mean fighting pittys was banished how long ago?? 30 years ago... so that could be like 25 generations...Or 20, I dont know... Do you know just from bloodlines....:rain:


Because it was banned from USA and other countries doesnt mean it still isnt around. Trust me, you banning something doesnt mean it will just stop and go away forever. 
You know your dog is game, by a GAME TEST, in the pit.
And it can some what be judged by bloodline, but pedigrees dont mean much, it is the dog that is game not the paper.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

I really dont know what to say to that.... I know that its not the paper. But obviously there is a way to know, I mean, Bert clouse Fought dogs and had a blood line... My dogs are clouse/mayfield... So what my ?? is does that mean my dogs are a fighting line, Do my dogs have anything to do with the fighting dogs from back in the day...


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> I really dont know what to say to that.... I know that its not the paper. But obviously there is a way to know, I mean, Bert clouse Fought dogs and had a blood line... My dogs are clouse/mayfield... So what my ?? is does that mean my dogs are a fighting line, Do my dogs have anything to do with the fighting dogs from back in the day...


If its an APBT, then it has something to do with dog fighting history.

Every "bully" breed has come from dog fighting no matter how far away it was... American Staffordshire is still fought along with the Bull Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier, they are all fighting breeds. Even the American Bully comes from fighting dogs, the APBT and the English Bulldog, EVEN the Presa.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

AHHHHHHH............. Its too complicated to type.... Did every single line out there fight?? Or just the game lines??


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> AHHHHHHH............. Its too complicated to type.... Did every single line out there fight?? Or just the game lines??


They all descended from fighting stock. All lines go back to fighting dogs, some sooner than others.


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

ahhaha its funny how this conversation about "gameness" went to a conversation about mma.... i thought it was hilarious...

sorry to bump such a old thread but love it or hate it, apbt's always has been and always will be associated with fighting. gameness is the #1 trait that all real breeders look for and try to pass on from generation to generation (this is what they mean by 'improving the breed'). im not saying it's right to fight dogs, but it is what it is. if you cant appreciated the history of the real gamebred apbt... than maybe you should move on to another breed.


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## texpitbull2 (Aug 13, 2007)

my thoughts one a dog being game ( hope I dont piss in n e ones coffie)

first how many of you have seen reaal dog fights ,, not you and your buddy or a friend of a friends dog going at it but a true dog fight one that is timed and put on paper around your area( not paper as in ADBA but all the dog men around your area know what the out come was ) one that has big money on it ??????????

and even if you have does that make the dogs game are just two dogs fighting ??????



A pit does not have to be fault to know if its game are not .

Why would I say such a thing? thgink about it ,if you looks back at all the history of the breed , its all there . in the beginning the APBT was not fault against other dogs at all .

the dogs were put in ratting or bull baiting comps . meaning the dog had to be game to compete,,, so what made these dog game .

Most people that think they have game dog would not know game dogs if one bit them in the a$$. 

gameness is the #1 trait that all real breeders look for and try to pass on from generation to generation (this is what they mean by 'improving the breed')

this is not so and if it was we would not have bloodlines like RE or gottie ,, and yes they are AB but for a long time they were just big pits .

I tell you what to do if you think for one moment you have a game dogs and don't want to fight it go to a pet shop and get you bunch of rats and make you a box and put your dog and all the rats in it and see if he/she kills one and eats it or does he/she drop that one and kill all the others . 

I have some game dog on my yard and I know this because I take in fighting dogs that have been thrown in the back woods to die cause they did not win,, but they get over it and still want to fight every chance they get . I had one that broke his chain and got in the pin with ray . he had his hole pilot ripped out and one eye is gone . but to this day he will still fight any dog that gets close ,,, he was fault before i got him so I would say he is game tested .

just being game bred don't make a dog game at all if it did the true game breeders would not have culled so many dog bake in the day . I would even say that most of the pits out there today are from BYBs and not true game breeders.

Game - this is not a drive. This is a descriptive term that is often used to refer to a dog that won't quit and that always sees himself as winning or succeeding...no matter how bad they get.


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## game_bred (Jan 3, 2008)

Yea like stated before,gamebred means the dog came from game tested dogs.
Gamebred dogs have a good chance of being game, but note that there are diffrent degrees of gameness.some dogs are more game then others.
From what i learned gameness can only be found out by rolling or figthing dogs.
And remember just because a dog is deeply game does not mean it can always beat a dog not as game,because dog fights are 90% from conditioning.


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## texpitbull2 (Aug 13, 2007)

From what i learned gameness can only be found out by rolling or figthing dogs.

as I said tell me how dogs got to be game before they were fault dog on dog .By the 1700's there were two primary bull baiting dogs that had developed. This was the Blue Poll of Scotland and the Alunt from Ireland both of which were referred to as bulldogs. The Alunt of the time resembled something closer to a Great Dane but is presumed to have later developed into the Alono of Spain .As this and other dog sports were developed people selectively bred different dogs to achieve the working attributes that they desired. They often mixed these breeds with the great dogs of England also used to bait bulls. During this time it was thought that the use of the dog on a bull had a tenderizing effect on the meat. In reality this was a myth perpetuated by dog men and gamblers in order to encourage participation and thus draw the profits of gambling.By the time of the early 1800's due to selective breeding a dog had emerged which was very similar to the American Pit Bull of today. Due to a slow economy and a law which prohibited people of low economic means from owning a sporting dog the practice of bull baiting began to diminish. In 1835 bull baiting was officially banned. This forced people especially of the lower classes to find alternatives for their dogs. This resulted in a sport known as ratting where a number of rats were placed in a pit for a specified time with the dog. THIS IS IN FACT WHERE THE "PIT" IN THE AMERICAN Pit Bull TERRIER NAME CAME FROM NOT FROM FIGHTING OTHER DOGS. A little known fact is that Teddy Roosevelt worked ratting dogs in the basement of the White House. The terrier part of the name came from its ability to hunt small game and was one of the reasons why ratters knew these foundation Pit Bulls being developed during this time would excel in the rat Pit. The larger the number of kill the better the dog placed in the match.as I said pit were game before dog on dog fighting was even a sport so to say . and the more game a dog had the more wins it got .


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## SouthKakBully (Jul 23, 2007)

^I agree, I don't think dog fighting is the only way to test gameness. The old dogmen believed that, but I don't. Like someone said before, hog catch have to be game to do what they do, because they could possibly get hurt or even die being a hog catch dog. Just like bull baiting.


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## game_bred (Jan 3, 2008)

ok
Gameness is not found out by bull baiting,or hog catching,other breeds are capable of doing this, as well.
As mentioned by other famous pitbull authours,gamness was determened in the fighting pit.Dogs back then were not considered game when they were bull baiting. Gameness was not even thought of back then. When bullbaiting was banned,thats when dogfigthing started. People started their own bloodlines to keep keep gameness un their stock.
Bull baiting was a fad,that dident last nearly as long as dogfighting.
For a breed to gain the trait of gameness,they have to be fought and bred for many generations,Bull baiting was not around long enough to determine if dogs were game or not.Like i said before,pitbulls are the only gamebred breed,just because they can take down a hog which dosent have near as much pain tolerance as a game dog,dosent mean its game.If thats true how come rottweilers and mastiffs do this as well.


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

texpitbull2 said:


> this is not so and if it was we would not have bloodlines like RE or gottie ,, and yes they are AB but for a long time they were just big pits .


this is why i said REAL APBT breeders..... Howard Heinzl said it himself, if you take 2 gamebred apbt's and breed them for looks and not game... after a few generations you might as well call them staff's because thats all they're gonna be.

from what i learn.... a dog that wont fight has no conviction.... a dog that fights and QUITS is a cur, a dog that fights and loses but wont quit is game.

little gator was a cold dog, he wouldnt fight if his life depended on it, but is he a cur? according to old timers, no. little gator blood is one of the strongest and most active bloodlines on the westcoast and mexico. snooty is a example of a dog that lost 2x but lost game. you guys all know about snooty blood.... one of the best.



texpitbull2 said:


> just being game bred don't make a dog game at all if it did the true game breeders would not have culled so many dog bake in the day . I would even say that most of the pits out there today are from BYBs and not true game breeders.


i agree with you 100%, even if you breed 2 10x winners more than likely they're gonna have curs.... or they might even have a whole littler of champs. only one real way to find out. i dont wanna put any names out there but the person who i got my dog from is for damn sure aint no byb... i would never ever get a dog from a byb.


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## texpitbull2 (Aug 13, 2007)

pitbulls are the only gamebred breed

this is not true take a look at this

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/akita.htm

the akita was bred for fighting also . and as for as that goes what about the chow chow.

so you are saying its not game just another fighting dog ???


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

apbt are the only dogs bred for gameness. from what i understand. even tosa's arent bred for game, quiters get bred all the time. unless the akita breeders cull out quiters and breed the best than they're bred for gameness.


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## texpitbull2 (Aug 13, 2007)

thats just it over there they are bred that way for fighting , they are culled . and other breeds in other countries are done the same way .I have seen chows done that way here in the USA for fighting . the man is in jail now but he was breeding them that way .


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## game_bred (Jan 3, 2008)

Akitas,are not bred for gameness,just because a website says that dosent mean its true.For one akc does not accpet fighting dogs.


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## game_bred (Jan 3, 2008)

just because a dog,wins a fight and is bred does not make it game,this process has to take decades or centuries,to bring out gameness.


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## texpitbull2 (Aug 13, 2007)

game_bred said:


> Akitas,are not bred for gameness,just because a website says that doesn't mean its true.For one akc does not accept fighting dogs.


AKC has alot of dog breads that were used for fighting . we are talking world wide here too not just in the US ,,, besides that I keep up with all the dog fighter around here being that I rescue dogs and most of them don't even have papers of any kind and would not have a reg even think about knowing there dogs . the law would be on them like stink on *(&^ if they did . being that said do you not think there are dogs being bred for things other than ring sports ( Like AKC UKC ADBA Shows)??????


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## game_bred (Jan 3, 2008)

not that i am a dogfighter,but a true dogman would have papers on his dog. The true dogman have pedigrees,and papers to prove the backround of their dogs.With out that nobody would want to breed with a dog with a unknown backround. common sense


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## texpitbull2 (Aug 13, 2007)

thats just it a true dog man is not going to bred out like that all the time he is gonna keep his dog all for his self and cull the ones he dont want . if he breds out then it will be to someone that knows his dogs so the papers want matter at all . it will be to a dog he knows also may be one he has seen in the box . so between the two of them they will know the dogs .why would they need any paper trail for the law to find.


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

real apbt breeders cull.... and they cull hard. the only way gameness can be preserved is to test and cull.


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## ern79 (Dec 26, 2007)

game_bred said:


> ok
> Gameness is not found out by bull baiting,or hog catching,other breeds are capable of doing this, as well.
> As mentioned by other famous pitbull authours,gamness was determened in the fighting pit.Dogs back then were not considered game when they were bull baiting. Gameness was not even thought of back then. When bullbaiting was banned,thats when dogfigthing started. People started their own bloodlines to keep keep gameness un their stock.
> Bull baiting was a fad,that dident last nearly as long as dogfighting.
> For a breed to gain the trait of gameness,they have to be fought and bred for many generations,Bull baiting was not around long enough to determine if dogs were game or not.Like i said before,pitbulls are the only gamebred breed,just because they can take down a hog which dosent have near as much pain tolerance as a game dog,dosent mean its game.If thats true how come rottweilers and mastiffs do this as well.


"written history about bullbaiting includes a story of a butcher who entered his elderly bitch at a baiting and brought along a litter of her puppies to sell. The reliable old bitch pinned the bull but that wasnt enough for the butcher. While the bitch faithfully held the bull, he cut her to pieces with his cleaver, since the bitch didnt quit her hod until she bled to death, the butcher served his purpose. The audience was so impressed with the bitches gameness that her puppies were all sold on the spot and brought an excellent price"

i think this shows gameness was thought of back then.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

:goodpost:


texpitbull2 said:


> thats just it a true dog man is not going to bred out like that all the time he is gonna keep his dog all for his self and cull the ones he dont want . if he breds out then it will be to someone that knows his dogs so the papers want matter at all . it will be to a dog he knows also may be one he has seen in the box . so between the two of them they will know the dogs .why would they need any paper trail for the law to find.


This is true. Papers mean absolutely nothing to people like that. In a way, they're their own tight knit registry.


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## SouthKakBully (Jul 23, 2007)

texpitbull2 said:


> pitbulls are the only gamebred breed
> 
> this is not true take a look at this
> 
> ...


^I concur that the APBT is not the only gamebred breed. There are other breeds from all over the world that are bred to fight and possess what we call gameness. Their degree of gameness may not be high as an APBT, but they do possess it. The APBT is just more widely known for its gameness. I still don't believe dogfighting is the only way to test for gameness. Maybe the best way, but not the only way.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. If true gameness is what your your talking about then yes the only way to tell is in the []
It can be tested only to a degree any other way.
It is a fine line though.


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## game_bred (Jan 3, 2008)

:clap: :clap: 
at least somebody knows the truth lol.


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

there shouldnt even be a argument here. theres only 1 way and 1 way only.... and thats the [].... love it or hate it, its the truth


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## The Diesel (Oct 23, 2007)

Only way to test a dogs gameness is in a fight. Even then, the winner is not always game just because he won. Sometimes the loser was the more game dog. A dog had to be injured or have all odds against him and still be pushing to continue the fight, thats a game dog. If the winner won because he was better conditioned, a better fighter or whatever, means nothing, sure he was a good fighter but unless he perservered through some serious shit he was just a better fighter and nothing more. When a dog comes along and tears him apart and he continues to try and fight he would then be deemed a game dog, if he didnt, hes just a dog.

I heard somewhere that some dogs were so good that their gameness couldnt be tested because thay had never been put in a situation where game could be tested, yet they won many fights.


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## texpitbull2 (Aug 13, 2007)

I still say the game had to come from somewhere in the beginning and I would think the dogs that did good at bull baiting or ratting ( the champs at it ) would have been the dog that were bred for the game in there blood so I would call them game pits . ya'll are talking about dog on dog game ,,, but what about the dogs that went up against bears , badgers, *****, or wolverines back in the day ????? are thay not game ??? also what about the ones that fight mountain lions now days are they not game if they don't quit???? I don't think it has to be dog on dog fighting to test game .


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## The Diesel (Oct 23, 2007)

texpitbull2 said:


> I still say the game had to come from somewhere in the beginning and I would think the dogs that did good at bull baiting or ratting ( the champs at it ) would have been the dog that were bred for the game in there blood so I would call them game pits . ya'll are talking about dog on dog game ,,, but what about the dogs that went up against bears , badgers, *****, or wolverines back in the day ????? are thay not game ??? also what about the ones that fight mountain lions now days are they not game if they don't quit???? I don't think it has to be dog on dog fighting to test game .


Yea, thats what game is. Its to see the dogs willingness to keep fighting when hes getting his ass kicked by another dog. It doesnt have to be an APBT but it does have to be another dog. Anything else would be a really high prey drive or something. My dog will let nothing stop him from catching a cat, rabbit or squirel and would try his best to take a hog down if i would just let him already, but he wouldnt fight another dog if he didnt have to much less continue after he is hurt. I do not conside him game at all even though i havent tested him and dont plan to, id say he has high drive and high prey drive. For what i need him for, hes turning out to be the perfect dog.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

The Diesel said:


> Yea, thats what game is. Its to see the dogs willingness to keep fighting when hes getting his ass kicked by another dog. It doesnt have to be an APBT but it does have to be another dog. Anything else would be a really high prey drive or something. My dog will let nothing stop him from catching a cat, rabbit or squirel and would try his best to take a hog down if i would just let him already, but he wouldnt fight another dog if he didnt have to much less continue after he is hurt. I do not conside him game at all even though i havent tested him and dont plan to, id say he has high drive and high prey drive. For what i need him for, hes turning out to be the perfect dog.


A cat, rabbit, or squirrel would not do the damage to a dog that a wild boar would do. I would really have to call a catch dog a game dog. If it's an animal that can hurt the dog worse than another dog would, why would you not consider that game? A wolverine could rip a dog apart. If a dog is willing to fight it to the death, that's a whole lot more than prey drive.

In my opinion, if a dog is facing death and does not stop, that's game, regardless of the animal it's going up against.


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## SouthKakBully (Jul 23, 2007)

smokey_joe said:


> A cat, rabbit, or squirrel would not do the damage to a dog that a wild boar would do. I would really have to call a catch dog a game dog. If it's an animal that can hurt the dog worse than another dog would, why would you not consider that game? A wolverine could rip a dog apart. If a dog is willing to fight it to the death, that's a whole lot more than prey drive.
> 
> In my opinion, if a dog is facing death and does not stop, that's game, regardless of the animal it's going up against.


^I concur. A wild boar, bear, or a wolverine would do a lot more damage than any dog. When these APBT continue to fight these wild animals even when they're injured, that's GAME.


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## The Diesel (Oct 23, 2007)

smokey_joe said:


> A cat, rabbit, or squirrel would not do the damage to a dog that a wild boar would do. I would really have to call a catch dog a game dog. If it's an animal that can hurt the dog worse than another dog would, why would you not consider that game? A wolverine could rip a dog apart. If a dog is willing to fight it to the death, that's a whole lot more than prey drive.
> 
> In my opinion, if a dog is facing death and does not stop, that's game, regardless of the animal it's going up against.


Yea, i mean i see where your coming from, and my family does alot of hog hunting and iv let my dog get out there and get a sniff with the other dogs and he went crazy for the hog, but hes too young for some real action right now. "Game" is a term created and used by the origonal dogmen so i always figured the term went hand in hand with the sport.

*This is a clip from an interview with Sonny Sykes*

*Joe(Corvino) was more a breeder than a fighter, right?* Right. He was definitely a breeder type. But, he would test his dogs hard, real hard!

*How did he do that?* Where would he draw the line? Well, you have no idea of what I saw in the blacksmith shop. Like I already said, he had no use for a punishing dog. He was looking for Gameness. So he put a hard test on them. He would put two or three dogs on one just to see if he would stay solid. And, if they didn't pass the test, he got rid of them. He wouldn't sell or breed them if they weren't Game. He sometimes used a Muzzle on a dog so they couldn't take a hold and frustrated them to see how they did under pressure.
*How do you feel about this method now?* Do you like to use two or three dogs if you want to test a dog's Gameness? No. I don't do it. I've tried it but I would never do that again. I had dogs that wouldn't even fight a fresh dog, but you put them in shape, and they would fight their heart out against the same opponent. Now Joe would never test a dog before he was 2 years old. He maybe would see if they would start up, but he never rolled them hard before 2 years old. He would never Match a dog before he was 3 years old. I'll tell you something. If you really want to test a dog, you don't have to put 2 or 3 dogs on him. It's very simple. Take them off the chain without any conditioning, and put the against a 5 or 10 pound bigger dog. That will show you something. Let them push that weight for about 15 or 20 minutes and you'll see! That's what I would do and did do. I guarantee you that they will quit quicker from the Heat than they will from getting hurt!


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## The Diesel (Oct 23, 2007)

game_bred said:


> Akitas,are not bred for gameness,just because a website says that dosent mean its true.For one akc does not accpet fighting dogs.


Yes akitas are bred for gameness over seas. There it the american akita and jappanese akita. The Japanese akita is much more agressive than the american and also smaller in size. I had one and at 88lbs was considered small by all the american akita owners. He was lean and very DA, would try to kill anything that moved. Much harder to contain than your average APBT.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

In the box. Period. No other animal can dish out the ass beating that pit dog can and no other animal can take it like a game dog can. It has nothing to do with size or strength. Nothing to do with who can tear who up. It only becomes gameness when he continues to scratch without fail. JMO What the hell do I know? I feed a Rottweiler. lol


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

I am reminded of a signature that someone has on another board that reads,
A true gamedog does not know defeat, He thought he had won..


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## texpitbull2 (Aug 13, 2007)

seen this on another post ,,,, is this not game .I mean he did not quit .


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## sw_df27 (Feb 16, 2007)

WOW i'VE SEEN THAT BEFORE BUT DANG THAT WOULD HURT


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## SouthKakBully (Jul 23, 2007)

Man that porcupine really f*cked him up!


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## The Diesel (Oct 23, 2007)

texpitbull2 said:


> seen this on another post ,,,, is this not game .I mean he did not quit .


No that is not game. Once again, the term game was created by the original dogmen to describe a trait a dog had in the ring. The term was never used befor pit fighting came to be and it was never used to describe any other traits a dog might have. And you can bet your ass people were hunting hog with pit dogs back in those days, they never used the term game to describe a dogs drive during the hunt. They knew what the term meant because it was a daily word when fighting was legal because the term went hand in hand with the sport. Hunters called it drive while dogmen called it gameness.

You dont see the guys on versus with thos labradore water dogs calling them game. They say they have a high drive for what they do, they do it because they love it. And if you have even seen a water dogs work, its some serious shit, they dont mess around.

Alot of things a dog can do, like taking down a hog, could be considered gamake but they are not. If the dog is injured and still fighting to take the hog down, great for him. But game is a term that stays in the ring because it was created for the ring. If a dog was tested in the pit and deemed a game dog, and later on was taken out hog hunting but didnt preforn on the hog like he did a dog, then what?


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

The Diesel said:


> Alot of things a dog can do, like taking down a hog, could be considered gamake but they are not. If the dog is injured and still fighting to take the hog down, great for him. But game is a term that stays in the ring because it was created for the ring. If a dog was tested in the pit and deemed a game dog, and later on was taken out hog hunting but didnt preforn on the hog like he did a dog, then what?


I think that any dog that faces death and does not give up is game, regardless of the animal they are facing.

I do a very valid point to your argument, though. If the dogs had no species differentiation, dogmen would not have been able to breed out HA and keep the DA.

So, if I saw a dog hang from a wild hog and faced death without letting go, I would call that dog game. He deserves a noble title. I don't care if that makes a "real dogman" mad. "Real dogmen" fight dogs. They piss me off, too! :hammer:


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## SouthKakBully (Jul 23, 2007)

The term "game" may have began in the dogfighting ring, but that doesn't mean that dogs weren't game before dogfighting began or that APBT that are used in blood sports aren't game. Game has nothing to do with dog aggression. Gameness is the unwillingness to give up, even under the most difficult circumstances and despite the threat of injury or death. I believe APBTs used as hog catch dog have to be game. They see their task all the way through to end, even if they're injured or bleeding to death. A dog that wasn't game would've given up after being injured.


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## The Diesel (Oct 23, 2007)

SouthKakBully said:


> The term "game" may have began in the dogfighting ring, but that doesn't mean that dogs weren't game before dogfighting began or that APBT that are used in blood sports aren't game. Game has nothing to do with dog aggression. Gameness is the unwillingness to give up, even under the most difficult circumstances and despite the threat of injury or death. I believe APBTs used as hog catch dog have to be game. They see their task all the way through to end, even if they're injured or bleeding to death. A dog that wasn't game would've given up after being injured.


Our dogs will die trying to catch a hog, no doubt. But if they are put up against another dog they are going to try to play, and if the other dog doesnt wanna play they dont want anything to do with them, so our dogs are not game. I think everyone wants to use the term "game" just because of how it sounds or the history behind it. Responsible hog hunters put protective vests on their catch dogs to prevent injury so game shouldnt even be tested tha way.

Why doesnt someone go find the oldest dogmen still alive and ask them, im sure they will tell you the difference. They wouldnt be offended, but im sure they would laugh at you.

And if game is the willingness to continue and never give up then what is drive?


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## game_bred (Jan 3, 2008)

The Diesel said:


> Our dogs will die trying to catch a hog, no doubt. But if they are put up against another dog they are going to try to play, and if the other dog doesnt wanna play they dont want anything to do with them, so our dogs are not game. I think everyone wants to use the term "game" just because of how it sounds or the history behind it. Responsible hog hunters put protective vests on their catch dogs to prevent injury so game shouldnt even be tested tha way.
> 
> Why doesnt someone go find the oldest dogmen still alive and ask them, im sure they will tell you the difference. They wouldnt be offended, but im sure they would laugh at you.
> 
> And if game is the willingness to continue and never give up then what is drive?


thank u,once again. It realllly irritates me when people that against dogfighting,use dogfigthing terms like game in the wrong definition. For those of us who know the true meaning of game,we should all ignore those who refuse to accept the truth. Bottom line,gameness can only be dtermined in a figthing pit! (not hog cathcing,or bull baiting).


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## texpitbull2 (Aug 13, 2007)

in that case you are saying there are no game dogs on this board at all then ????????? and also by the name Game Bred does this mean your dogs are game ? do you fight your dogs ? if not why the name ?


IMO if your dog has game bred dog 3 or 4 gens back that does not make him/her game bred hell even 2 back would not be game bred , I would only call them game bred if both parents were tested in some way . to add on thet note that still dont mean your dog is game .


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

game_bred said:


> thank u,once again. It realllly irritates me when people that against dogfighting,use dogfigthing terms like game in the wrong definition.


"by the name Game Bred does this mean your dogs are game ? do you fight your dogs ? if not why the name ?" *texaspitbull2*

I would like to know this as well. If you don't think people against dogfighting should use dogfighting lingo, what's up with the user name?

As I've already said, a dog that will face death without giving up is game, regardless of the animal they are fighting. If that makes a few dogfighters mad, so be it. What are they gonna do about it? If there was anything to them, they wouldn't have to prove how tough they were by fighting their dogs.

I really think that people romanticize the "dogmen" of old a little too much.


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

omg.... why are you guys even arguing about this..... THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY TO TEST GAMENESS!!!!! PERIOD!!! hog hunting doesnt test game, weight pull doesnt test game, and playing fetch til your dog is exhausted doesnt test game.

honestly... this seems like a trap now for people to just come out and say they fight their dogs. you think anyone would be dumb enough to come out on a public forum and say "yeah i fight dogs. so i know theres only one way to test it". old timers who have been around this breed for over 50 years have said it, dogmen before them have said it, and real dogmen now say the same shit, why would it change?

how the hell are you gonna test someones knowledge of something when they have over 50 years of experience, plus have had 100's of dogs in their lifetime over someone who only owns a few dogs and have only been around this breed for a few years?


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

"by the name Game Bred does this mean your dogs are game ? do you fight your dogs ? if not why the name ?" texaspitbull2

why? because the parents are game tested. howard heinzl said it himself. IF YOU TAKE 2 GAMEBRED APBT AND BREED THEM FOR LOOKS, AFTER A FEW GENERATIONS THEY'RE NO LONGER GAMEBRED APBTS, THEY'RE AMSTAFFS.

and yes... even if the dogs are gamebred doesnt mean they're game... only 1 way to find out. period.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

The definition of *game dog *from Wikipedia:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For related meanings refer to game (disambiguation) 
*Game* or *Gameness* is a quality of fighting dogs that are selectively bred and conditioned from a very early age to develop traits of eagerness despite substantive injury. Dogs displaying this trait can also be described as ready and willing, full of fight, spirited, or plucky. *Gameness is valued as it gives the dog the ability to maintain the attack in baiting, despite ripped flesh, dehydration, exhaustion or broken bones. *As one writer describes it, "Game is the dog that won't quit fighting, the dog that'll die in the ring, the dog that'll fight with two broken legs."[1]

The scope and method of training to develop a game dog varies dramatically depending on the level and experience of the dog-fighter. *Badger-baiting is a traditional method of determining gameness, and in the past the Irish Kennel Club required a Teastas Mor certification, earned through baiting, for any champion working terrier*


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## SouthKakBully (Jul 23, 2007)

smokey_joe said:


> The definition of *game dog *from Wikipedia:
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> ...


See there are more ways to test gameness. A lot of these old dogmen are just stuck in their own ways. Dog fighting is not the only way to test gameness.


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> The definition of *game dog *from Wikipedia:
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> ...


and yeah... wikipedia has always been a good source for facts


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## SouthKakBully (Jul 23, 2007)

^Yeah, most of the time. Sometimes their info can be wrong.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

chino0503 said:


> and yeah... wikipedia has always been a good source for facts


Ok, I'll give you that one.


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> Ok, I'll give you that one.


hope you guys know i was being sarcastic... this is alittle off topic but cesar millan is the shit!!!


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

chino0503 said:


> hope you guys know i was being sarcastic... this is alittle off topic but cesar millan is the shit!!!


LOL. That'll get it started! Hey, at least you know how to strike up a good debate. Gotta give you that.


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

buzhunter said:


> LOL. That'll get it started! Hey, at least you know how to strike up a good debate. Gotta give you that.


yeah i just got done watching dog whisperer. ive always heard about him and seen short clips of his shows on youtube. first time i actually watched a full episode. im thinking about picking up the first whole season, this guy is amazing!


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Oh BOY! LOL
If you want a good debate search The dog whisperer or ceasar Millan and bump it up..LOL


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## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

ericschevy said:


> Oh BOY! LOL
> If you want a good debate search The dog whisperer or ceasar Millan and bump it up..LOL


i was about too but its locked. cesar millan is the shit!!! sorry for getting off topic. back to debating about gameness....


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

chino0503 said:


> hope you guys know i was being sarcastic... this is alittle off topic but cesar millan is the shit!!!


Yeah, I caught on to the sarcasm. I know wikipedia isn't the most reputable source for info, it was just the only place on the web I could find a definition of "game dog."


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

This is only for the sake of another source of info, not meant to argue the point any further but i got this from GAMEDOGS.COM :

*Game - Courageous, dexterous, obstinate, spontaneous; bravery and heroism from a noble and self sacrificing devotion; a contest lasting until a result is obtained*

*Gamedog - A proven game, deep game or dead game fighting dog*

*Gameness - A very hard to obtain, courageous, dexterous, obstinate, spontaneous grade of game. Once obtained it is very hard to hold onto. Once lost it is impossible to obtain again, except through sheer luck occasionally or many years of breeding, conditioning, and culling*

*Game Test - To test the degree of gameness by consecutively rolling and scratching a dog after tiring, to a fresh dog.*

Like I said, it's just a "second opinion" since there was an obvious lack of confidence in the Wikapedia definition.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Also like to add that I researched this topic on a forum devoted to game dogs and the opinions were pretty much the same as they were here. About 50/50.


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## The Diesel (Oct 23, 2007)

buzhunter said:


> This is only for the sake of another source of info, not meant to argue the point any further but i got this from GAMEDOGS.COM :
> 
> *Game - Courageous, dexterous, obstinate, spontaneous; bravery and heroism from a noble and self sacrificing devotion; a contest lasting until a result is obtained*
> 
> ...


I can agree with this.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

There is one way to test true gameness in APBTs. That way is illegal. Other breeds have different definitions of gameness like badger baiting for terriers, coondogs that hunt to exhaustion. Their breeders/owners say they have gameness. They have every right to. The words game or gameness wasn't created by old dogmen, they've been around for awhile, even to describe people. These were the words chosen for the APBT as they fit the breed so well in their absolute determination to never quit no matter what. They won't stop until death, if they are game.



buzhunter said:


> In the box. Period. No other animal can dish out the ass beating that pit dog can and no other animal can take it like a game dog can. It has nothing to do with size or strength. Nothing to do with who can tear who up. It only becomes gameness when he continues to scratch without fail. JMO What the hell do I know? I feed a Rottweiler. lol


Well that is accurate on gameness, no other dog can take it like a game dog can. Some breeds can dish out as hard as an APBT and kill them so gameness never comes into the equation. If the other breed can't kill the APBT then the APBT usually wins on gameness as the other breed gives up the fight. However there are times when APBT has no chance no matter how game it is.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Very true. Not all pit dogs are APBTs. They just wish they were. LOL


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## cherol (Jan 7, 2007)

quote{There is one way to test true gameness in APBTs. That way is illegal.}


In saying that you should realize that is only your opinion. and opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one........ APBT's were around before dogfighting was a sport or a way to "test gameness" ...so who is to say that putting them in the pit is the only way to test fr gameness. 

I used to live at the base of the mountains in Pikeville,TN. One day we were walking down an old country road with our dog and a small pup. We started hearing the sound of animals following us through the woods beside the road. Although we stopped our walk and started home it was about 5 miles to the nearest house. The sound of the animals following us stayed with us and kept getting closer.... to the point that we could see them in the woods in spots where the forest was not very dense. It was coyotes! Our dog who was going nuts and kept pulling me towards them broke the snap on the lease and straight up went after them. For about 10 minutes all we could hear was a massive amount of growling and thrashing around. When everything quieted down we heard a noise coming back through the woods towards us......Here pops up our dog full of blood . We walked back into the woods because obviously we thought she ran them off. We found 3 dead coyotes on the ground. We got home and took her to the vet. Fortunately she had no serious injuries and she'd already had all her shots and they were up to date. Had I had a gun with me at the time, I would have went straight into the woods and ran them off, but seeing as how we were kind of defenseless we had to let whatever happened happen. I do not condone fighting even at that level, but I do think that tested gameness.


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## SouthKakBully (Jul 23, 2007)

A lot of people tend to confuse gameness with DA and prey drive. Your dog running off into the woods to fight some coyotes does not test gameness. Your dog was just the better fighter. That has nothing to do with game.


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## cherol (Jan 7, 2007)

SouthKakBully said:


> A lot of people tend to confuse gameness with DA and prey drive. Your dog running off into the woods to fight some coyotes does not test gameness. Your dog was just the better fighter. That has nothing to do with game.[/quote/]
> 
> my dog has NO DA actually and it was also not about prey drive as that is not her normal character. She sensed DANGER and went straight into it. That is gameness (maybe not in your eyes, but as I said before that is your OPINION as this is my OPINION)
> 
> *Game - Courageous, dexterous, obstinate, spontaneous; bravery and heroism from a noble and self sacrificing devotion; a contest lasting until a result is obtained*


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## SouthKakBully (Jul 23, 2007)

cherol said:


> SouthKakBully said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of people tend to confuse gameness with DA and prey drive. Your dog running off into the woods to fight some coyotes does not test gameness. Your dog was just the better fighter. That has nothing to do with game.[/quote/]
> ...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

SouthKakBully said:


> cherol said:
> 
> 
> > The true definition of gameness is an unwillingness to give up, even under the most difficult circumstances and despite the threat of injury or death. A lot of other breeds are courageous and brave, but to my knowledge the APBT is the only breed that possesses gameness. I respect your opinion though.
> ...


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

cherol said:


> quote{There is one way to test true gameness in APBTs. That way is illegal.}
> 
> In saying that you should realize that is only your opinion. and opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one........ APBT's were around before dogfighting was a sport or a way to "test gameness" ...so who is to say that putting them in the pit is the only way to test fr gameness.
> 
> I used to live at the base of the mountains in Pikeville,TN. One day we were walking down an old country road with our dog and a small pup. We started hearing the sound of animals following us through the woods beside the road. Although we stopped our walk and started home it was about 5 miles to the nearest house. The sound of the animals following us stayed with us and kept getting closer.... to the point that we could see them in the woods in spots where the forest was not very dense. It was coyotes! Our dog who was going nuts and kept pulling me towards them broke the snap on the lease and straight up went after them. For about 10 minutes all we could hear was a massive amount of growling and thrashing around. When everything quieted down we heard a noise coming back through the woods towards us......Here pops up our dog full of blood . We walked back into the woods because obviously we thought she ran them off. We found 3 dead coyotes on the ground. We got home and took her to the vet. *Fortunately she had no serious injuries* and she'd already had all her shots and they were up to date. Had I had a gun with me at the time, I would have went straight into the woods and ran them off, but seeing as how we were kind of defenseless we had to let whatever happened happen. I do not condone fighting even at that level, but I do think that tested gameness.


Well thats just your opinion as well. You yourself say she had no serious injures, for gameness to be tested the dog must be injured and not be on the winning side. That is why even match dogs that end it quickly and are barely injured their gameness is in question. They might be a good fighter, they might be a winner, but they were not proven game in the pit sense. Thats what gameness is, to keep going despite severe injury and the possibility of death, all odds against you. Coyotes are hardly odds for a good sized dog, especially a Pit Bull. My dogs have taken many Coyotes but I wouldn't dare call them game. One female was actually hurt pretty bad she was young and they ganged up on her, she was also tied which is said to be a disadvantage. None of the others suffered serious injures, the worse thing was one female got fleas that were just on her muzzle from one of them. The Yotes quit coming around here and learned their lesson. Until this year, their numbers are many now and they are getting desperate with such a hard winter. Killing a Coyote is like a cakewalk so I don't see how it test gameness.

Your dog protected you and sense danger. Many dogs would do this, not just APBT so they are not game in the pit sense. Or do you believe just any dog is game the same way the Pit is? I already stated there are different meanings of gameness, dogs can be said to have it, people can be said to have it, but it means something different then the pit dog meaning. I was talking about the pit dog meaning, not the general meaning. 
A GSD would likely provide protection in the same instance. Being the better fighter and protecting doesn't mean gameness in the pit world. There are many dogs which can kill Coyotes along with other animals. That doesn't prove gameness until that dog took a lot of *punishment* and kept going. It only proves they can fight and have ability. If they never endured punishment they didn't prove themselves to be game (again in the pit dog sense)
Gameness can only be tested if the dog is bested. Then you will see if the dog quits or not (which mean is game or not). Just like a hard mouth dog it might not be game, its never been put in a position to prove it. Its always been the winner, not defeated and still thinking its the winner.


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