# Blue dogs



## danleys gracie (Jun 25, 2008)

While going through pictures and reading some articles on the Internet. I was wondering if anybody knows when was the first blue dog has been seen or recognize. Just curious.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

When it was outcrossed with another breed that has that dialuted gene.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> When it was outcrossed with another breed that has that dialuted gene.


You don't think there could be a pure apbt with the dialuted gene?


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

I do, but that is something that would show up on a rarity, but all the blue dogs around now in the bullie breeds are from out outcross then back into the apbt, and if there was a rare occasion where the gene showed up it wouldnt throw blue dogs 

The figures are just to small with the apbt, but people dont think that coz they see so many blue dogs that have been outcrossed and assume the blue comes from the apbt.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I think that color is possible in almost all breeds you have black and tan as well and that doesn't mean the APBT was crossed with a rott. I don't think this color was desirable because it causes health problems and breeders culled to get rid of that color. I read somewhere they crossed kerry blue fighting dogs back in the old days when they were creating pit dogs. I don't remember the source but it was an interesting article that I read.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Ever seen a silver rotweiler? what about silver labs they are banned from shows as they are weimariner dog. apbts came from the gamedogs of yesterday, there is one that is silver, but all of a sudden there are thousands of blue dogs being claimed as apbt. where did this burst of blue dogs come from? definatly not the dialuted rare gene, it has come from another breed.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Ever seen a silver rotweiler? what about silver labs they are banned from shows as they are weimariner dog. apbts came from the gamedogs of yesterday, there is one that is silver, but all of a sudden there are thousands of blue dogs being claimed as apbt. where did this burst of blue dogs come from? definatly not the dialuted rare gene, it has come from another breed.


I am in no way deffending Bullies being called Pits, all I am saying is that it is possible to have the color without outcrossing.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Id like to see some proof. Someone give me some examples and peds.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

I thought all this was cover in the thread about blue game dogs:hammer:


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I thought all this was cover in the thread about blue game dogs:hammer:


This one is about blue dogs


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

oh it just seemed like the color blue was talked in more detain than i could follow in the last thread
the dilute the part about color all starting from red that some are black but in the light they look red or blue and so on and so on if the op read that thread I think they wlould have a pretty good amount of info on them


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Id like to see some proof. Someone give me some examples and peds.


Ask on Game-dog they will post some peds for you. I have seen them before:roll:


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Ill do a search on there


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I found some from that site look here

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [178895] :: J.K.DEAL'S BLUE

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

What do you guys think about dogs like Dosia. Could the blue have come from them as they are a dilute of black. Like getting lighter down the line? FH referred to him as slate blue before, but I always thought he was seal. I don't really know much about colors but he looks black and his under coat reflect a brownish color and sometimes a blueish color, depending on the light. Here's a few pics.

































Here's one of him next to Tiva who is black brindle, you can see the difference in their color really well in this one.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

There is a huge article I can steal from game-dog that talks about colors. But basically your great dane haha jk your doggy has a very unique coloring  I believe it was the Blue Paul fighting dog that was crossed to bull baiting pits and those were real blue dogs. Maybe that infusion of blood could have caused it? I know some hunters preffer lighters dogs for the hunt so dilute colors would have been culled. Look at th history of the dogo, I wouldn't be surprised if some unique colors were produced. The Alano has very similar coloring to the APBT they even come in Blue and tri color. Many say the Alaunts are the ancestors of all modern war/hunting dogs.


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

I've owned two solid black pitbulls in my time and they both had days where they strange color tones. One week they would look like they had brown highlights then I would catch blue hues in them. It must be something common in blacks.


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

the blue color can happen without crossing out to other breeds and it has happened in the past. the reason that you didnt see much of it before was because the apbt was bred for a purpose, not for a color. today, so many are being bred for the blue color and it is no longer rare. unfortunately, breeding for color has led to the overall quality of the apbt to decline.


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## danleys gracie (Jun 25, 2008)

So is turpin's blue trouble not an original apbt if all blue dogs where crossed.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Have you got a ped for that dog? ill tell you if its apbt, if not others on this board will recognise names od amstaff or ambully, please post


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Have you got a ped for that dog? ill tell you if its apbt, if not others on this board will recognise names od amstaff or ambully, please post


Did you see the ones I posted?


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [8494] :: TURPIN'S BLU TROUBLE (3XW)

Blu trouble is a pitter staff, but a winner.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

There ya go, blue came from the staff blood


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

All staffs come from APBT, so does Blue staff blood come from original APBT blood


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

The staffordshire bull terrier was before the APBT.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Why is it more comon in the am staff? Why are there no blue gamedogs? 

I just cant get my head around it. i dont really care though i dont no why im debating the subject. if the dogs works hard and proves itself i couldnt care if it was rainbow tiger strip cow patched.

Then comes into play, some people class a dog an amstaff if it has no gamelines in its 4gen LMAO, some people class a dog amstaff if it doesnt have gamedog parents.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Did you see these?

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [178895] :: J.K.DEAL'S BLUE

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

David what is 2 dogs out of a million, that is not showing that blue comes from apbt its showing that there is a rare gene that has showin and that is how rare the gene is, 2 dogs out of the worlds gamedogs, definaly does not tell me that blue is common in apbt or comes from them.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I think people culled blue dogs, blue coats are a sign of health problems. Skin problems, allergies I don't think dogmen would want to deal with that. 

I have seen blue staffordshire bull terriers too and I have also seen blue frenchies, blue boston terriers and blue chiwawas.

It is obvious that if you cross a apbt to a blue mastiff you are going to get blue dogs at some point. Generally speaking the mastiff is every dogs ancestors and they come in all colors.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Dogmen couldnt care less, a dog is a dog no matter what colour its coat. Even with that rare gene it wouldnt produe blue dogs unless it was bred to another dog with that gene which would be too hard to find.

Your right with the mastiff part, and that is how i think the colour got in there, even if it was 5gens or so back.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Dogmen couldnt care less, a dog is a dog no matter what colour its coat. Even with that rare gene it wouldnt produe blue dogs unless it was bred to another dog with that gene which would be too hard to find.
> 
> Your right with the mastiff part, and that is how i think the colour got in there, even if it was 5gens or so back.


Blue dogs tend to get a lot of skin problems, i am sure dogmen wouldn't want to deal with a dog that was selectively when eating or that would break out.

I doubt a chiwawa would have mastiff 5 gens back or a boston lol

Half apbt(sorrel's blood I believe) x half english mastiff:

Preacher-Man - Chimera Kennels


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Blue dogs that are bred blue on blue tend to have skin problems from over diluting .. Breeder's not paying attention to skin pigment is the number one cause of skin problems in these blue dog breedings.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I will be the first one to admit that blue dogs are very good looking but if I was a breeder I would never breed a dog with a characteristic that would endanger the puppie's well being. If a dog is going to be miserable from allergies and skin problems why breed it to potentially come out like that you know?


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> Blue dogs tend to get a lot of skin problems, i am sure dogmen wouldn't want to deal with a dog that was selectively when eating or that would break out.


So do inbred dogs


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

danleys gracie said:


> So is turpin's blue trouble not an original apbt if all blue dogs where crossed.


Those TNT dogs are a mix of staff and APBT blood.... There is staff blood in all of them


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

davidfitness83 said:


> I will be the first one to admit that blue dogs are very good looking but if I was a breeder I would never breed a dog with a characteristic that would endanger the puppie's well being. If a dog is going to be miserable from allergies and skin problems why breed it to potentially come out like that you know?


The issue is not a blue dog born from lets say 2 black parent's .. It's when you take that blue dog and breed it to another blue dog over and over. That is what causes the health and skin problems


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Sadie said:


> The issue is not a blue dog born from lets say 2 black parent's .. It's when you take that blue dog and breed it to another blue dog over and over. That is what causes the health and skin problems


Which is what most BYBs are doing lol


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Exactly and that is where the problems lie with blue dogs. If they were not bred blue on blue over and over blue dogs wouldn't have those problems. It's because of the blue on blue breedings that causes those type of problems.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Also I wanted to add it's not just BYB's you see a lot of Bully breeders doing this too! Hence the 2,000 rare blue pit ... Bully breedings and many bully bloodlines are primarily surrounded around BLUE dogs.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I have posted several blue dogs that come from apbt lines the color blue was introduced into the APBT/Amstaff through the blue paul.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Blue dog Pedigree's that stem from Game dogs/ APBT blood no staff blood

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [46197] :: TITAN ROOK'S GHOST

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [178895] :: J.K.DEAL'S BLUE

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [135491] :: E.MIRANDA'S GRIS A.K.A SUSANO

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [319846] :: BARRERA'S SCARAMUSH


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Also I wanted to add it's not just BYB's you see a lot of Bully breeders doing this too! Hence the 2,000 rare blue pit ... Bully breedings and many bully bloodlines are primarily surrounded around BLUE dogs.


I did not want to offend Bully breeders by mentioning them, but seriously not one breeder in the freaking Bully world has tested their dogs before breeding them. That is freaking pathetic !


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

@ Sadie^^^^^^Thats the kinda thinkin that boulsterd my comment on another BLUE discussion on BOUDREAX.. *That essentially all our dogs are bandogs.* Game bred bulldogs just have the least amount of that trait and if proper culling happened none.. JMO *Let the mastiffs have it back,* being mastiff and bandog are the same thing when they work they are bandogs ..


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Whos blue paul? ill like to know the statisticts on him and if his ped is real LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The Blue Paul Terrier was a fighting dog ....

Blue Paul Terrier | Doggyhelp.com


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

blue paul info from another site,make what you want of this..
From The Book Of All Terriers by John T. Marvin (1964) in a 
chapter on Working Terriers: 

The Blue Paul or Blue Poll Terrier is here identified as a 
working Terrier for want of better classification. This strain was of 
the Bull Terrier family and, as the name suggested, came in a pleasing 
bluish slate color. The dog had all of the attributes of the Bull 
Terrier although it lacked the refinement of later animals. According 
to fragmentary descriptions now available, this Terrier was closer in 
conformation to the English Staffordshire Terrier than to the 
presently-known Bull Terrier. 

The Blue Paul was classed as a Scotch fighter. The greatest breeding 
activity took place in the lowlands between Kirkintilloch and 
Edinburgh where the strain existed and flourished for about seventy or 
eighty years. There is no doubt that the Blue Paul variety of Bull 
Terrier had Scotch blood in its veins. Brown (referring to Thomas 
Brown's 1829 book Biographical Sketches and Authentic Anecdotes of 
Dogs), when speaking of the third variety of the Scotch 
Terrier, mentioned that it was a larger dog up to 18 inches at the 
withers, and had longer legs than the rest of the tribe. "It is from 
this breed that the best bull-terriers have been produced," he wrote. 

One of the first notices of the Blue Paul is seen in Alken's colored 
etching on badger baiting (1820). Here a white Bull Terrier and a Blue 
Paul Terrier are shown engaged in a badger-baiting contest. The white 
is at grips with the badger and the handler is attempting to loose the 
unfortunate animal by biting the Bull Terrier's tail. By 1880, or 
thereabouts, the strain began to lose size and the old sixty-pound 
heavyweights were no longer seen. The lightweights that came into 
vogue were not up to the work and with this deterioration the strain 
slowly slipped into oblivion. 

Blue Pauls threw many colored offspring, mostly blues and brindles. 
Occasionally a red appeared which was called a "Red Smut" because of 
lack of clarity in the color. This type was never numerous and few 
references to it can be found though data are available that document 
its existence. The rare variety is mentioned to aid researchers who 
may come across the name in some obscure reference

From the book Canine Lexicon

BLUE PAUL 

These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting 
Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were 
known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue 
Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly 
brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch. 

The dogs were popular with he gypsies of that district who maintained that 
the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than 
blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull-and-terrier breeds from which 
they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs 
remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of 
Japan. 

In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of 
the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs 
(20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, 
the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without 
overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on 
high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows 
were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England, reports 
that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s.

Many people claim that the Blue Paul is extinct. He may be extinct in his 
pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in 
England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from 
Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland 
to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity, as we 
have seen. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 
minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, 
he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of 
Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young 
Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat 
Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was 
bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in 
Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 
hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. ****, 
another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 
minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her 
Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in 
Massachussets. They fought at Catch weight which usually indicates large 
dogs. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to 
the possibility that she might have been a blue paul. 

If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline continued in America and 
others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:rofl: Swinford created blue Swinfords using Carver dogs.. Hmmm Im thinkin that BuSht I heard from some no names bout 10 years ago that Carver took the gamest of the mix and well anyone hear bells ringin?

I knew Boudreaux had blue dog goin on but I only search acouple of em and they had Carver so even though carver new what he was doing compared to so say Eddington it still added a dillution only in mastiff or bandog blood it had been kept seperate from [] until its entry into america and england during american post colonial times.

if its game dogs I pretty much chop it up that all blue game dogs have Watchdog, Boudreaux, Carver .. There are those lightner dogs as well.. I just call those black or .. LOL slate blue


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

MORE INFO,OR SPECULATION ON THE HISTORY OF BLUE DOGS......
In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note’s that in the late 1930’s one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. 

Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936. The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Stafforshire Terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs 

The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren’t penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can’t stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Son histoire


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> blue paul info from another site,make what you want of this..
> From The Book Of All Terriers by John T. Marvin (1964) in a
> chapter on Working Terriers:
> 
> ...


I wasnt laughing at this.. LOL this is a good read.. :goodpost:


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

So it was x'd into the apbt


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes MissApbt that's how it got there  ALONG time ago


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## truepits92 (Nov 23, 2010)

DIAMOND C'S GHETTO SOLDIER 
heres a ped of Doras grandsire tego ... they kept a few blue "grey dogs" offa their litters and bred them to seals and black and brindles to get more blue and then stitch threw tego  he was really blue and white and he threw Levi with a seal named mosely so it can be done


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

So its not an apbt trait, well it didnt come from the apbt. Whoop!!!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?


Like dogs that were thought to be once extinct apparently Blue Pauls? since they were the scottish fighting dog and dillutant to the English and Irish pit stock.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> if its game dogs I pretty much chop it up that all blue game dogs have Watchdog, Boudreaux, Carver .. There are those lightner dogs as well.. I just call those black or .. LOL slate blue


And if you look at these peds that is what you will see Bodreaux and Carver blood  Slate Blue whatever you want to call them ... This is just an example of some Blue game dogs that don't have the staff blood behind them these dogs were not bred for the color blue they just turned up because of the gene LOL

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [46197] :: TITAN ROOK'S GHOST

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [178895] :: J.K.DEAL'S BLUE

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [135491] :: E.MIRANDA'S GRIS A.K.A SUSANO

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [319846] :: BARRERA'S SCARAMUSH


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> So its not an apbt trait. Whoop!!!


:rofl: :woof:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

MISSAPBT said:


> So its not an apbt trait. Whoop!!!


Well it is now because it was introduced into the breed at the very beginning that is how it got there. The APBT was mixed in the beginning too


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

So if i x catahoula into apbt it is fine? doesnt make sence.

Lol sadie i just edited my post before i read yours


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> So if i x catahoula into apbt it is fine? doesnt make sence.
> 
> Lol sadie i just edited my post before i read yours


The APBT wasn't pure to begin with so what's the point you are trying to make?:roll:


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> The APBT wasn't pure to begin with so what's the point you are trying to make?:roll:


No dogs were pure to begin with so, we guna go into debth with all breeds? Try me


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I feel that it was mixed from the start of the APBT when it was imported and made its own breed so it was part of the foundation. The reason you see so many is cause of the fad effect. When people came across them they kept them and bred them. But yes the blue APBT got their blue in a different way than the bullies.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LOL Yeah I see it now.. But that is how it got into our breed. But as we know dog men of the old days would cull anything blue because they were considered inferior by dog men ... That is why you don't have any real matches between blue dogs in those times. Dog men had their prejudices too when it came to dogs


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Sadie said:


> LOL Yeah I see it now.. But that is how it got into our breed. But as we know dog men of the old days would cull anything blue because they were considered inferior by dog men ... That is why you don't have any real matches between blue dogs in those times. Dog men had their prejudices too when it came to dogs


:goodpost: I think the color is just a gene like a person's eye color or hair color. How can you have blue chiwawas, blue bostons, blue frenchies you know? Even them hairless dogs come in blue I think.

I understand Missapbt's passion for the anti-blue thing because bybs and bully breeders treat them as exotic dogs but in reality I feel any color is possible in any breed. Let the BYB's market their rare blue dogs, it doesn't make a difference to educated dog enthusiasts.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Im thinkin shes sayin that if we irradicate merles from the game dog stock why not blues... ??? is this correct ?? ? 
There have been some merle dogs with C AAAAAAARver paperwork as well. .LOL as well as others .. man my ears are ringin.. LOL there is a dog catahoula bulldog  thats how it got there. OH bulldog, YEAH I gotta bulldog.. LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy4747 said:


> But yes the blue APBT got their blue in a different way than the bullies.


And that is what it all comes down to:goodpost:


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

I cant give you anymore rep david  but you are spot on with why i am anti 'blue apbt'

Yes rudy and sadie but people dont understand that they will just keep having their head up there arse and say that there apbt is blue and it is pure, but really they are in denial it is a X


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

If the dog performs who cares the color, obviously if there are health implications breed away from it. The DOGO Argentino has to get Baer tested because the all white dogs are prone to deafness, heck that did not stop them from pursuing that color you know?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The merle thing Is a whole different topic it's banned from all the registries that came about from some modern day crossing LOL


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sadie said:


> LOL Yeah I see it now.. But that is how it got into our breed. But as we know dog men of the old days would cull anything blue because they were considered inferior by dog men ... That is why you don't have any real matches between blue dogs in those times. Dog men had their prejudices too when it came to dogs


Why were they considered inferior? I would think color would have lil to do with the tenacity or fortitude of an animal.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> I cant give you anymore rep david  but you are spot on with why i am anti 'blue apbt'
> 
> Yes rudy and sadie but people dont understand that they will just keep having their head up there arse and say that there apbt is blue and it is pure, but really they are in denial it is a X


Thank you:roll: I know what you feel because of your love for the breed. Sadly specially in American biggers is better, more is better and that is what has caused the decline to many breeds. I don't know how NZ is but as long as we keep a circle of educated dog owners the breeds will survive. All we can do is educate and provide historical background, the problem is too many people get caught up in looks and forget about the engine which is the most important.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Rudy4747 said:


> Why were they considered inferior? I would think color would have lil to do with the tenacity or fortitude of an animal.


I would like to know the story behind it, you are correct there has to be something else about them, or maybe they just never existed?


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

When did fighting dogs eventually become the APBT? Europe had a bunch of different Bull-terrier fighters and a lot of them were imported over here. They were all probably seperate breeds in their own right but eventually mixed together to obtain the perfect specimen. My other question is if Colby Dogs are mainly one of those strains, then it's not the mix of all those dogs but a different, original strain all together. Is it truly the American pitbull Terrier?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree color has no bearing on gameness it's really ignorance on their part. My guess is because it was so rare for a blue dog to turn up when one did they culled it LOL .... You will hear stories about dog men having their picks in color .. Rule of thumb color should have no bearing on gameness .. But if you read some of the older stories you will see that many dog men favored the red dogs or the black dogs for their own reasons. Deep gameness, hard mouth, ect.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> LOL Yeah I see it now.. But that is how it got into our breed. But as we know dog men of the old days would cull anything blue because they were considered inferior by dog men ... That is why you don't have any real matches between blue dogs in those times. Dog men had their prejudices too when it came to dogs


well since Searcys Jeff beat all 3 of the best lightner "blue" dogs well.. that would make sense. Just like they culled all white dogs, except colby, lol..


> Hey ya'll wanna use
> this dog as a stud for your American Bulldog program..


 scarcasm LOL Colby fathered all bulldog blood IMO cause we all used his stock.

but yeah.. why diverge from what they already knew.?? that like politics at its best, "So what if we fk it up, at least we'll know we had it right the first time.." whateves, have fun with that thinkin.. LOL not you sadie people in general. Cull people Cull..


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> I cant give you anymore rep david  but you are spot on with why i am anti 'blue apbt'
> 
> Yes rudy and sadie but people dont understand that they will just keep having their head up there arse and say that there apbt is blue and it is pure, but really they are in denial it is a X


If we hate on every one for what a select few do then we will never have any.
You can't wish blue dogs away because some people are taking advantage of uneducated people. I mean i guess you can but it's not nice.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy4747 said:


> Why were they considered inferior? I would think color would have lil to do with the tenacity or fortitude of an animal.


I agree color has no bearing on gameness it's really ignorance on their part. My guess is because it was so rare for a blue dog to turn up when one did they culled it LOL .... You will hear stories about dog men having their picks in color .. Rule of thumb color should have no bearing on gameness .. But if you read some of the older stories you will see that many dog men favored the red dogs or the black dogs for their own reasons. Deep gameness, hard mouth, ect.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I watched a documentary on genetics and dog breeding and it appears that certain coat colors are connected to agression. The show said that red dogs tend to be more agressive while darker colors are less. I don't know how accurate that is but it would be interesting to look into it.


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## truepits92 (Nov 23, 2010)

Honestly I think it's just like all the other colors out there. it was around but they didnt make them their main breeders for what ever reasons they had, same with the big trend in tris and such. Blue was around but not like it is now because they were not breeding to get blues. Keep a blue breed it to a seal or even a red get tris and blues keep a tri breed it to a black get more tris its all in the stars?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sadie said:


> I agree color has no bearing on gameness it's really ignorance on their part. My guess is because it was so rare for a blue dog to turn up when one did they culled it LOL .... You will hear stories about dog men having their picks in color .. Rule of thumb color should have no bearing on gameness .. But if you read some of the older stories you will see that many dog men favored the red dogs or the black dogs for their own reasons. Deep gameness, hard mouth, ect.


Kind of what i thought might hae just been culling them cause they were like what the heck is that, get rid of it. lol. Just wondering.


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## truepits92 (Nov 23, 2010)

color and gamenss is hard to say. I have 1 all white black nose (Daisy) and she HATES red nose dogs. No lie. Shes fine with tonka, dora, king and kera & other black nose dogs...but she always goes after nilla and now bella and other blue nose and red nose dogs... . Kera, nilla, dora, tonka, king and bella love all dogs and its just weird they are like people. It's like saying all itallians that have green eyes are NASTY or sumtin. IDK that JMO


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

fishinrob said:


> When did fighting dogs eventually become the APBT? Europe had a bunch of different Bull-terrier fighters and a lot of them were imported over here. They were all probably seperate breeds in their own right but eventually mixed together to obtain the perfect specimen. My other question is if Colby Dogs are mainly one of those strains, then it's not the mix of all those dogs but a different, original strain all together. Is it truly the American pitbull Terrier?


NO.. they are American Pit Bulldogs or Game-bred Bulldogs (my preffered term) a APBT had to have 2 wins to be registered as an APBT by the UKC the OLDEST U.S. registery designed just for the APBT, ADBA came about cause they felt UKC wasn't honoring game bred dogs anymore thus the TRUE APBT by THEIR own STANDARDS...

the first terriers registered were from inbreeding pit bulldogs in England because the comon ppl need a dog that was a straight working dog and menace to any critter.. all other terriers came from crossbreeding and inbreeding and so forth and so on.

IN the APBT... You will notice dogs with the terrier gait and walk, a bulldog gait and walk, you will see dogs that stand like cows and move like a horse, you will see small and large snipey and blocky,dogs with alligater jaws and whippet (no I don't think there are whippets in there just an examp of looks) lil bodies it is the most divereged; purebred dog in the world.. Its only rival was.. WAS the original Dogue De Bordeaux which was 3 strains of fighting dogs.

working dogs are mutts bred pure for the function as we all know, so if its proven it went into the pot, some went in before and thus why blues fell before the reds... LOL nothing proven LOL I got jokes :roll:


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Reading this thread made me think of something I saw online the other day. Some guy was trying to stud out his blue American Bully, saying he is a rare blue American Bulldog. I know for a fact there is no such thing as a blue American Bulldog. I don't think blue has ever showed up in that breed at all. They are mostly white with brindle, but they can have some black or tan colored spots. This makes me think of the old world bulldogs. Have you ever seen one that is blue? I think blue is pretty much a trend and everyone wants one.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)




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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I think dogmen of the old saw certain traits linked to certain family of dogs (bloodlines) and they may have associated color with those traits and qualities. It's been said the black dogs have hard mouth ... the red dogs are deep game... Just have to go read your history books you will see that dog men def had their picks 

Which brings me back to my point blue dogs didn't show up enough for dog men to really form an opinion of their gameness they were culled because they were rare and never got a chance to prove anything LOL Dog men used what worked what had already been proven to work through years of selective breeding and culling.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

kg420 said:


> Reading this thread made me think of something I saw online the other day. Some guy was trying to stud out his blue American Bully, saying he is a rare blue American Bulldog. I know for a fact there is no such thing as a blue American Bulldog. I don't think blue has ever showed up in that breed at all. They are mostly white with brindle, but they can have some black or tan colored spots. This makes me think of the old world bulldogs. Have you ever seen one that is blue? I think blue is pretty much a trend and everyone wants one.


Look at my thread on working dogs in the VIP you will see two black american bulldogs. I have also seen blue fawn johnson american bulldogs.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

MISSAPBT said:


> Id like to see some proof. Someone give me some examples and peds.


Bellon dogs,don't have access to A registry,but they are some,or were,prized dogs.dead game.
they say the lib
nes are gone,yet theirs stories of some folks who got some of his dogs and kept them kinda hush.down brazil and argentina way.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Old dogmen culled full grown dogs as well, as they had to be 2 generally to be tested .. 

They learned from experience... after all thats what education is, revealed moments of truth through experience and prefferably enlightenment.. LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Amen William this is true !!!! It's no surprise the bellon dogs threw some blue dogs and that family of dogs from what I have heard were game as heck!! That's why soga is the only known BLUE grch on the planet Or for FH slate blue


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Amen William this is true !!!! It's no surprise the bellon dogs threw some blue dogs and that family of dogs from what I have heard were game as heck!! That's why soga is the only known BLUE grch on the planet Or for FH slate blue


:clap: L:rofl:L gosh ..

haha for sure, opinions vary some would cur that blue right off from the experiences of the old dogmen.. others are like WHY?

I would go with my gut at the moment probably, if I had no traces before, I would probably call it black dillute .. LOL just to call it out.. I guess Im bias to the Original Game Bred Bulldogs of yesteryear..


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> Look at my thread on working dogs in the VIP you will see two black american bulldogs. I have also seen blue fawn johnson american bulldogs.


Those dogs were real cool. I love me some American Bulldogs  I have seen the blue fawn looking ones but I have never seen a pure blue one, and I don't think we will ever see a pure one. Blue in American Bulldogs is a major fault and totally unacceptable for the breed standard.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I just want to say I think this is the most educational Blue dog thread I have ever read or have been apart of we might need to make this one a sticky! LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy4747 said:


> Kind of what i thought might hae just been culling them cause they were like what the heck is that, get rid of it. lol. Just wondering.


I think dogmen of the old saw certain traits linked to certain family of dogs (bloodlines) and they may have associated color with those traits and qualities. It's been said the black dogs have hard mouth ... the red dogs are deep game... Just have to go read your history books you will see that dog men def had their picks

Which brings me back to my point blue dogs didn't show up enough for dog men to really form an opinion of their gameness they were culled because they were rare and before they got a chance to prove anything LOL Dog men used what worked what had already been proven to work through years of selective breeding and culling.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Makes a lil scenes but seem kinda dumb at the same time. I try to remember that was a different time. Thinking was different then too.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

So if blue dogs showed up in the days of the dog men then why can't it show up in our dogs today? I think that a good majority of the so called "blue pits" do come from some sort of crossing but I'm sure there are some true ones too. I don't think they are going to be as light as some of the American Bullies you see but it is totally possible with the right genes.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

blue game dogs didnt come about in register til IMP II and Lightner been in the game a long time he was obviously experimenting with an idea in his mind from discussions much like this. 

the outcome Searcys Jeff and Imp, ImpII and Dan.. .. ~ so does it have merrit.. ??? Im curious as to what kinda dogs that bellon dog got his wins against and at the same time I call this the rare one of kind, the one that woulda been culled because of other undesirable traits associated with the color. SO kinda Lightner performed a scientific experiment for us, and we can see the thinking of old dog men doesnt go without merrit.. Of course the slate blue trait is there  in game dogs but its RARE its like getting that freak 90lbs game dog out of 50 and 60 lbs dogs, only 3 I know of and 2 are legendary Eli dogs .. LOL one bred by Carver  

Proof is in the pudding, again Id like to know if that bellon dog competed with any Lukane, or Barracuda type dogs or against a buck dog. ?? Kinda like those 3 blues of lightners meeting lightner red stock .. LOL Yeah.......... 

I like how Sadie put it; at the same time, ethically as game dog breeders that color should be culled.. like an all white dog or blue eyed dog.. according to the old school ethics of game bred bulldogs of course in registered APBTs of old. 
That bellon dog is gorgeous in conformation IMO I love the how its put together, so as a cute lil pup,, OH my.. but thats the kinda thing that makes one a hypocrite, ya know.. CULL IT.. :"( it's part of it.. game bred dogs require the highest cull rate ..


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

SCRATCH THAT.. ^^^^^^^
a NO CULL solution 

People have tried with watchdog stuff.. but with all the indiviual breeds and seperation of what defines an APBT or a game bred bulldog. IT would take time that is not forced but yet timed and gathered specimens.. Take a dog like that bellon dog, and over the years gather up the other slate blue  dogs that pop up out of game litters and only breed proven blues to proven blues and the genetics of the Blue Paul is there SO~ what a nice recreation out of current "APBT" stock ... as the Blue Paul was a fighting dog and its genetics lie in todays only game bred dog bred for match(figting).. So without culling one by one as they appear and are proven that is something that makes more sense in my mind. .. but then again :roll: my mind is like them wheels always rollin..


in that case, I may have a Blue Paul (rasberry) because its game bred in its own right and its own line of dog not to be mixed with game bred bulldogs/APBT..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The important thing to remember is in true game lines blue was never a desired color as stated it's not that the color can't or doesn't exist as shown in pedigrees posted it does show up from time to time but not in ever single breeding and certainly not as often as some would like you to believe. Sadly even today some of those ignorant beliefs about blue dogs being game are carried on into the newer generation of dogmen mentality. Remember they laid the foundation for many things and many still follow suite. It doesn't help what has happened with the whole blue dog movement as being rare and special it makes fanciers of the breed dislike the color even more. There may be blue dogs being bred for the box but because the sport is illegal in the Us we are less likely to hear about it happening.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Great posts both of you  This is really a great thread.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

keep it up I say!!!hehehe
ya'll gonna make me put my bitch in keep,knock 20# off of her and give her A run I swear by golly.
I'm tellin you,ya know how some of them old guys,they'd set for hours and watch A litter of 3-6 month old dogs,how they play fight,and check each other,what holds they apply,who gangs up and why,which one gets picked on then fights from the ground up,and is comfortable doing it.
well,this dog,she'd have made grade to roll.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Sadie said:


> The important thing to remember is in true game lines blue was never a desired color as stated it's not that the color can't or doesn't exist as shown in pedigrees posted it does show up from time to time but not in ever single breeding and certainly not as often as some would like you to believe. Sadly even today some of those ignorant beliefs about blue dogs being game are carried on into the newer generation of dogmen mentality. Remember they laid the foundation for many things and many still follow suite. It doesn't help what has happened with the whole blue dog movement as being rare and special it makes fanciers of the breed dislike the color even more. There may be blue dogs being bred for the box but because the sport is illegal in the Us we are less likely to hear about it happening.


well I sure hope no one tells A game blue dog he's supposed to be A cur.might make him change his mind and take up knitting.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

just tryin for middle ground ... lol cull em or seperate them from the stock as they appear.....


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Firehazard said:


> just tryin for middle ground ... lol cull em or seperate them from the stock as they appear.....


I was young back then,listening to the "old "guys.
today,were I still in the game I would actually give it A go.
you get one dog,diluted,and another one 
GC's up who's to say the blue dog,that don't know he's blue wouldn't/ couldn't do the same?
we waited years sometimes for A specific breeding,I'll bet you A whole bunch of others have to.
now,today,I wish they'd have all been diluted.we waited 4 years once.I'll bet you we'd have boxed them.
I never saw, only heard of blues.now I wish...


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

cant we call it black dillute or something like that when they pop up in game dogs??? blue just associates with the whole blue movement... dunno thats how i really feel.. because people dont/wont cull.. and "blue" gr ch 5+ is a gr ch with 5+ Ws.. LOL so I cant argue that; but I swear that looks like slate blue or black dillute  LOL


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Firehazard said:


> cant we call it black dillute or something like that when they pop up in game dogs??? blue just associates with the whole blue movement... dunno thats how i really feel.. because people dont/wont cull.. and "blue" gr ch 5+ is a gr ch with 5+ Ws.. LOL so I cant argue that; but I swear that looks like slate blue or black dillute  LOL


man,we must have A fate bro,I posted diluted, as you were requesting it.
earie stuff.we must be making black magic for blue/diluted dogs!!!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah,, DavidFitness and Sadie.. of course william all excellent dialogue going on here, excellent..


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

william williamson said:


> I was young back then,listening to the "old "guys.
> today,were I still in the game I would actually give it A go.
> you get one dog,*diluted*,and another one
> GC's up who's to say the blue dog,that don't know he's blue wouldn't/ couldn't do the same?
> ...


thats just wicked.. :rofl: red moon still at work, I guess its unanamous..

:clap: so we should suggest a petition from adba and get online signatures and written signatures as well for those backwoods folk. ?????

I would so push this.. don't think it would be hard, then game dogs that came up dilluted if not culled would be registered as black dillute .. LOL kinda makes sense us dogmen/women generally cut straight to the chase as it is :woof:

OR just make Blue Paul a color for the black dillute in the game bred APBT to give historic merrit to the dog.. ??? heh??? I like dillute better less likely to be a fad.. RARE.. LOL


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Firehazard said:


> thats just wicked.. :rofl: red moon still at work, I guess its unanamous..
> 
> :clap: so we should suggest a petition from adba and get online signatures and written signatures as well for those backwoods folk. ?????
> 
> ...


now,i'm not gonna sit here and lie.when I say blue,as to when I heard about they didn't say blue.I'm just using the reference.
they said something else,the only thing I do remember was that they called it A genetic tic.
it was the jacob boys,'ol fletcher,Jerry black willie and some others. they were talkin dog.about tight showin underbites,and spindly legs and so on they just kept usin genetic tic or failure.
so odd this thing.
I was so privaledged to sit with them and some of the others when they campaigned through the south.
ain't no tellin who I met. wish I could remember.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LOL ya'll are some crazy goats LOL .... We need to hit up some of our mexican dogger's and import some of that blue game blood over here and test our theory LMAO!! JK sadie run's for the border .........


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Hmmmmmmmmmm I'm thinking ... I'm thinking.... folks I can stay with south of the rio....

:rofl: but to have a proven black dillute that might be a dime  LOL


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## bradbenjamin1984 (8 mo ago)

william williamson said:


> keep it up I say!!!hehehe
> ya'll gonna make me put my bitch in keep,knock 20# off of her and give her A run I swear by golly.
> I'm tellin you,ya know how some of them old guys,they'd set for hours and watch A litter of 3-6 month old dogs,how they play fight,and check each other,what holds they apply,who gangs up and why,which one gets picked on then fights from the ground up,and is comfortable doing it.
> well,this dog,she'd have made grade to roll.


I am working a blue tri right now that goes back to Lightner. Ofrn x chinaman and smaller precentages of others. I line bred so much too start it should be about 65%OFRN and 30% Chinaman. I took a blue uncle(my dog) 2 chocolate littermates bred and had saddle a yellow fawn rednose. So Blue my dog bred his niece Blue x Saddie and had 5 pups. Blue came up missing in 2001 he weighed 33lbs full grown gold eyes. So I kept a blue female destiny and red/white splitface name Kano (Mortal Kombat). Then I took Kano x Saddie his dam. Their litter had Dj (destiny jr) Bred Kano x DJ and had Dominus. Now I took Dominus (Blue Fawn x Destiny)blue/white markings. It took almost 22 yrs to get to the puppies I had this year. 2 lilacs RN , Solid white RN , Lilac Tri RN, 1 Blue tri BN, 1 reverse blue tri, and 1 Blue and White BN .Now we have what I call the Benjamin Bloodline and they are game. May not be champions but as long as it's illegal I won't risk not being able to own a dog but I am working the Reverse Blue Tri and going to work her with hogs just to see how far I can take her she is 11 weeks today. RareBlood Kennels if interested in progress of the Blue


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