# Brads' temperament



## bradthepit (Jul 30, 2006)

Well, lads and lasses, i thought i had a nasty pit on my hands, looks like the Demodex treatments are what gets him narked. 

His temperament arounds kids is not brilliant, but good with adults. He is always either put away or scrutinised carefully when my kids come over to stay (yes you gorgeous American girls, i`m single:thumbsup: ) He is however 1 bloody game dog, will back down from absolutley nufink, which is a feat considering he is less thgan 5 mths old. he is getting more obedient, but i found out he was an Alpha male of the litter, which could explain a lot!

He`s a stubborn git, but affectionate too...at the end of the day, i love him to bits:cheers:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

you know that the dog is game?how so?
Its good to hear your dog is getting better,and that his temperment is on point.Good luck with that little ripper,we need some irish staffs on this side of the pond,great dogs.


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## tjy52 (Oct 4, 2006)

He sounds like a hell of a pup. Got any pictures to post?

At 5 months, he's still so impressionable that if you keep him leashed and around kids to socialize as much as possible, he should be great with them as he gets older.

Quick question... What are the differences in the Irish and American variety?


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## Jenny Poo (Oct 30, 2005)

And did you hear that gorgeous American ladies .. he's single!! ..lol .. sorry i thought that was a very cute part of your post


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## bradthepit (Jul 30, 2006)

tjy52 said:


> He sounds like a hell of a pup. Got any pictures to post?
> 
> At 5 months, he's still so impressionable that if you keep him leashed and around kids to socialize as much as possible, he should be great with them as he gets older.
> 
> Quick question... What are the differences in the Irish and American variety?


the difference in irish Staffs and Pits are imo virtually none. I guess you could say the Irish Staff of today is like the American Pit of yesteryear.

I did a post saying my boy was 3/4 irish 1/4 Pit, it was meant the other way round. Irish Staffies are normally extremely game and agile dogs. If i get stopped by the OB in the Street, i always say he`s an irish Staffie, usually that`s enough to beat BSL over here.

He is definately more Pit than Irish, as i`ve got his papers. he has many good lines in him. Reid, Patrick and Corbin on the Pit side, Psycho and Lucifer on the Irish side.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

he sounds amazing man,ive seen a few irish staff,they are real tight looking dogs,as for the gameness of brad,that has to be tested for he may be from game lines but that dosent mean hes game,if that was true dogmen wouldnt roll there dogs theyed just match them in the pit and hope the dog was game..any ways gameness is obsolete in my opinion,its only important for a dogman..


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

ive been thinking about this whole "gamness" thing, is it possible that a dog that wont give up on fetch or any activity you put in front of him make him game, or do you gotta strap some weight on him or put him in a pit. no one has ever really givin me the definition of GAME. i always though it just meant a strong willed determined dog that wont give up


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gameness can only be tested for by pushing the dog to the brink of death in a fight,then see if hell take the next step,if he will hes game.The high drive required for weight pull or protection or spring pole is not gameness,gameness equals death,thats why the highest game dogs are refered to as dead game.they will fight intill they die no matter how badly injured or beaten they are.


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## Lisa3 (Aug 16, 2006)

cane76 said:


> gameness can only be tested for by pushing the dog to the brink of death in a fight,then see if hell take the next step,if he will hes game.The high drive required for weight pull or protection or spring pole is not gameness,gameness equals death,thats why the highest game dogs are refered to as dead game.they will fight intill they die no matter how badly injured or beaten they are.


a question..is gameness a natural attitude or it always has to be initially induced through cruel practices such as starving the dog, beating him up etc..
I ask you this because I often wonder if behind every famous pitman or breeder of the past was hiding a very harsh and heartless person.
Bye


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gameness is a trait inherited from other dogs and selected for by testing for it,but in my opinion all game dog men are pretty harsh and generaly heartless folks.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

You cand find out if your dog is game without beating it or starving it. Whoever heard of starving a dog to see if its game? You can tell if your dog is game if it continues to try at WHATEVER its doing when the odds are stacked against him. You can test gameness on the weight track. Thats what wins it alot. Alot of dogs can pull the weight but they quit, they give up
and dont try!


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> You cand find out if your dog is game without beating it or starving it. Whoever heard of starving a dog to see if its game? You can tell if your dog is game if it continues to try at WHATEVER its doing when the odds are stacked against him. You can test gameness on the weight track. Thats what wins it alot. Alot of dogs can pull the weight but they quit, they give up
> and dont try!


I always thought that was what was meant by gameness the dog doesn't give up they keep trying. It can be a good quality to have in both dogs and people. 
Brad sound like a handful but with a training he will turn out to be just fine.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Question??
The other day I was @ the store and heard two guys talking about "bumping" dogs. After hearing them say things like "Oh, he was ready.." I knew they were talking about fighting. So, being the way I am, I told them off. Then, they explained to me that "bumping" isn't fighting. They "introduce" two dogs to see if they would be willing to fight each other. They said they didn't fight their dogs, but the "gameness" was a desired charecteristic b/c fighting is part of the APBT history, and all the great dogs of yesteryear were tested in the ring. I told them I believe they don't fight dogs b/c they didn't have a clue. I told them the only thing they were proving by "bumping" is they have an agressive dog, not a game dog, which are two different things, right? They said I was wrong. A dog willing to fight is game wether it fights or not. I told them gameness can be tested in weight pulling and other things. Gameness is when the dog refuses to give up. I don't think I ever got them to realize what I was talking about. But, am I wrong?? You can't tell how game a dog is just by the willingness to fight, right? Is that not just plain old agression? Can you not have an agressive dog that is not game?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Let me make one thing clear and it is the truth,gameness can only be proven by fighting a dog and pushing it to the brink of death and seeing if will take that last step.If weight pull or spring pole proved gameness dog men of old would just see that there dog had incredable tenacity while on the pole,through it in the box and watch as it was destroyed by a game tested dog,dog aggresion in no way means gameness,the apbt is really the only dog that carrys the game trait since it has been selected for over years of selective breeding and culling.
keith..


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Now would there be another way to see if a dog is game?? Instead of beating your dog. LOL we know that wont happen!! But i know when i play fetch with my dog, he WILL NOT STOP!!! its like i gave him some crazy drug and he just has all the energy in the world!! I played foot ball with him and i guess when i threw the ball, he grabbed it and bit his tounge. His mouth was bleeding REALLY bad!!! But the bugger would not stop!!!! Even when we tried to get him to stop, HE WOULDNT!!! lol I was getting mad at him. But could that be an indicator of Gameness?? I think so, I have tried with my friends pittys and they look at me like, "huh, what are ya doing"? But Harley loves it. I dont know, I just thought maybe that could help.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

hmmm where to start......

bumping, rolling whatever, is a form a fighting. Usually a bigger dog on a smaller dog for about 10 minutes. It introduces the dog to fighting and to see if its willing or wants to quit and get out. Just because a dog is willing to be rolled doesnt make it game. It means it tries. those guys sounded like idiots putting two curs together and thinking ok they are game!



> They said I was wrong. A dog willing to fight is game wether it fights or not.


 Wrong. A dog willing to fight but doesnt is what gets culled. They cull for a reason.

As mentioned above true gameness is tested at deaths brink. Gameness as referred to by fighters. I however do believe there are degrees of gameness. More than once a 2 or 3x winner has quit in the pit. Does that mean he isnt game? What about before? Maybe he was just having an off day.

Not normally but this time I disagree with Cane. I think that there are other ways to test gamness in a dog other than fighting. It may not be the gameness of old and the methods of old but you can still find it. I dont know that a springpole test gameness, I cant see that but I do believe you can find it on the track. At the last show I went to a 29lbs dog was pulling. Finally the weight got so high he couldnt start the cart but he stayed hooked in just clawing and clawing and digging for as long as the owners let him. Thats game to me. Now he may not fight but nowadays game=heart to me as fighting is no longer legal so determing gameness is illegal.

Gamness and aggression 2 totally different things. Agression is show on the outside, gameness is heart and determination on the inside.


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## bradthepit (Jul 30, 2006)

*QUOTE:gameness is heart and determination on the inside.*

Couldn`t agree more...


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

I also agree with OldFort, gameness can be test in other ways than fighting.

You gotta think about where the word "game" comes from. Well, my family are a bunch of hunters, mainly hogs, and I've always known the word "game" to be a hunting term. When your out hunting, what do you call what your hunting? "wild game". I think if you want to know if your dog is "game" let him do what he was truely made for and that hunting. Take him out to the field and see how he does in his true atmosphere.
Now my brothers dog, they are game. Never been fought a day in there life but can take down 500 pound hog, one on one and never give up...... Now thats game.

Fighting wasn't the origiinal purpose of the APBT, hunting and hearding was, that where the word "game" comes from. Fighting came later. Out in the field you can't expect your dog to take on another animal if its scared or is gonna eventually give up and run away.

So to get to the point, and make a long story short, *a game dog is actually a hunting dog.* Which is the original purpose of the APBT. So if you want to know if your dog is "game"..... put him out in the field not the ring.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

ok,
ill agree with midwest bully,a dog that takes on a hog as a catch dog and stands its ground is a hell of a tuff high drive animal but,how many dogos have battled a hog to the bitter end with more tenacity than many pitbulls would,but would i call a dogo game,never,its a worthless fighting dog and this has been proven again and again.There is levels of gameness of course,game,deep game and the ever sought seldom found dead game.
*oldfort said..*"It may not be the gameness of old and the methods of old but you can still find it. I dont know that a springpole test gameness, I cant see that but I do believe you can find it on the track."

I think hog hunting[catch dogs]and weight pull are best ways to look for a sign of gameness with out rolling the dog,but youll never be able to test for dead or deep game dogs using these methods,imho..
I gusse this should of been a thred on its own right,a decent discusion is taking place.I assiociate gameness with the fighting dog,all else is extreame drives and tenacity imho,there are so many bull terriers with extreame drives but id hesitate to call them game even though a few still carry the trait..
a few more dogs that will carry a game trait are bandogges,american bulldogs,.
ok enough rambling,
good points oldfort and midwest bully.


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## Lisa3 (Aug 16, 2006)

as you know I'm far from being an expert but I've read around about "gameness" and heard several opinions of breeders and this is in brief what I sorted out as meaning of gameness:
"Gameness" is the most unique and precious trait of the pit it has been achieved from breeders after at least a 100 yrs of skilled and carefull breeding..gameness doesn't mean aggressivity nor determination *it is the capability of an animal to ignore the primary instinct of nature.. " the survival instict"*.. no other animal but Pit bulls can do that if pushed to extreme conditions. Gameness is expressed at best in fighting when it's win or die. We can compare Pit gameness to humans ..and the result is a war Hero. Brave soldiers are many but only few are to be heroes. It's opinion of the most that gameness can only be proven through fighting and that it's such a singular trait that can be easily lost in few generations if not recognized and preserved...and this seems to be the most difficult challenge for nowadays breeders..find the legal way to preserve this trait that makes of Pit bulls the most fascinating, wonderful and noble of all dog breeds.
This is what I understood ..I'll be pleased to read your opinions
Cheers
upruns:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

you nailed,great job.
thats why i posted earlyer gameness is becoming obsolete.it is degenerating back to extreame drive and tenacity,which is a step bellow gameness.self preservation has been instilled in nearly all creatures on this earth,the compleate lack of self presevation is gameness.And just as you stated gameness must be tested for,since all dogs from game lines are high drive k9s not all will be born with the utter lack of self preservation.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Midwest Bully said:


> I also agree with OldFort, gameness can be test in other ways than fighting.
> 
> You gotta think about where the word "game" comes from. Well, my family are a bunch of hunters, mainly hogs, and I've always known the word "game" to be a hunting term. When your out hunting, what do you call what your hunting? "wild game". I think if you want to know if your dog is "game" let him do what he was truely made for and that hunting. Take him out to the field and see how he does in his true atmosphere.
> Now my brothers dog, they are game. Never been fought a day in there life but can take down 500 pound hog, one on one and never give up...... Now thats game.
> ...


That's an awsome thread.

"bumping, rolling whatever, is a form a fighting. Usually a bigger dog on a smaller dog for about 10 minutes. It introduces the dog to fighting and to see if its willing or wants to quit and get out. Just because a dog is willing to be rolled doesnt make it game. It means it tries. those guys sounded like idiots putting two curs together and thinking ok they are game!" OFK

From what I understood, they weren't fighting the dogs, just "introducing" them to see if they would be willing to fight. Two people holding each dog on a leash to see if they lunged and growled @ each other. That's just agression.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> From what I understood, they weren't fighting the dogs, just "introducing" them to see if they would be willing to fight. Two people holding each dog on a leash to see if they lunged and growled @ each other. That's just agression.


LOL Im sorry Smokey maybe I gave those guys TOO much credit!! LOLOLOLOL if they think facing dogs (bumping) dogs shows any form of gamness. Thats how you lose alot of money and dogs if thats what they think gameness is. Thats funny just thinking about it. Man there have been many a dog with alot of bark and growl but when something got on them they were looking for the back door. I'm quite humored by their statement.

Cane I do agree with gamness as we know it today is only tested in the heat of a losing battle or hard battle. Midwest also brought up a good point about the origin of gamness but to me on a hog or a dog thats the same thing. One is "hunting" and I believe it is and one is fighting. In fighting there is only the purpose of victory or defeat, in hunting there is the purpose of bringing down they prey. I see it very similar as far as the dog is concerned. I believe that you can test a true level of deep or even dead game on a hog.

What I said about finding gameness on the track is the "newer" less violent and more legal way of finding gameness. I dont believe it to be the same gameness of fighters and hunters but I guess it should be just called heart. Maybe the word "game" isnt right in this case. I am certain that there are dead pullers who scratch to the end that wouldnt do the same in a pit so I dont believe the word is being used correctly anymore, myself included.

Well Ive rambled so long Ive lost myself. Im going to have to go back and read what I just said to make sure Im not crazy!


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

IMO...... "Gameness can be shown more in the field than in the ring. I mean, going against another dog of same weight and not giving up and nothing compared to going against something 20x your size and not giving up. That to me, proves game more than dog fighting. IMO of course.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

if hog hunting proves gameness then dogo argentinos and american bulldogs and whopper apbt hybrids would be some of the gamest k9s around.I believe typicaly you can use a dog from game lines for hog hunting but not a GAME DOG,seeing as a game dog will engage the hounds in combat not the hog.Any ways heres a photo of a dogo that lost his life against a boar,great dog.








But was this dog game?hed probably not dog aggresive at all,it wouldnt be effective in a hunting situation,and yes dog aggresion dosent equate gameness,but many times gameness equates dog aggression,hope that makes sence.


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

cane76 said:


> I believe typicaly you can use a dog from game lines for hog hunting but not a GAME DOGQUOTE]
> 
> *Thats what a game dog is.... a hunting dog.* Before fighting was ever a "thing" these dogs hunted and hearded. Thats where the word "game comes from from.
> The high prey driven dogs where the ones they used for fighting because of their "gameness".


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

*midwestbully,
the terrier was the hunting dog,the apbt did inherit this tenacity from the terrier, BUT,THE APBT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A FIGHTING DOG,LIKE IT OR NOT..NO matter what spin a registry or org wants to put on the apbt history the facts are ,the dog was created after bull baiting was made illegal,they crossed the bulldogs of old with working white terriers which created a gamefighting dog*.Im through arguing gameness with you,you think the meaning of game means a hunting dog fine,but i wounder what would John p Colby WOULD OF THOUGHT OR wILLAM h LIGHTNER ABOUT YOUR THEROY.
BEST REGARDS
KEITH..


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

*Bulldogs and terriers where mixed BEFORE fighting and bull baiting for hunting*

Like it or not.

I'm not arguing, I don't argue.


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## Nation (Sep 27, 2006)

"*Ultimately the public's fickle gaze fell on the sport of dog fighting, primarily because it could be more easily hidden from the prying eyes of the law than baiting and other fighting sports. Since dog fighting required smaller and more agile animals than the ones that were used in baiting, fighting bulldogs were bred with terriers who were known for their feistiness and indefatigable focus. The result was the bull-and-terrier, more commonly known as the first pit bull terrier - a muscular, canine gladiator bred specifically for combat with other dogs. *"

http://www.pitbull411.com/history.html

Theres a link Cane is correct about the breed it was bred for one purpose it was to fight other dogs. I also agree with him that true gameness can only be tested by fighting the dog till hes near death.

I believe that maybe 10 to 15% of all pitbulls out there actually have what dogmen would call Gameness. With the banning of dog fighting there is really no way to breed for that characteristic. Regardless I would still never own another breed.


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

*I disagree. I have seen pics and read documented history how they bred bull and terriers long before fighting and baiting. These dog where more bull than terrier. When fighting was introduced they bred in more terrier than bulldog to make the dogs smaller.*


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

*Its all a matter of opinion. Other views are always very interesting to here*

Upon reading that link, it says pitbulls come from a mastiff origin. So does that mean that the bully 100+ lb style APBT is actually original and not the "game style"?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I think the problem we are having is that we are comparing oranges with apples. The APBT was bred to fight each other. THE GRANDFATHERS of the APBT were not bred to fight each other but were more GAME (hunting, catching, baiting) dogs and the scale (sizewise) was different than the pit dogs. Although they did originally, WAY BACK come from mastiff type dogs, if you will do some looking into the backgrounds you will find that the dogs they called bullodgs were not the size of bulldogs nowadasy. Alot of the OLD BULLDOGS used in baiting and hunting were no larger than 25 to 30 lbs.

So we really cant compare the APBT to its original ancestory because they are two different dogs bred for 2 different things. Its like the APBT has two eras, Time before introduced to the US and Time after introduction to the US.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

What i do not get about the whole "its bred in them to fight" is.......... How the hell does my 5 year old pitbull know that his ancestors fought??? He does not know that his great great great great grandad could have been a fighter. So.... is Harley was never tought to fight, by me, being HIS owner, how is it still inbred in him?? He has no idea!!! Harley is not a fighting dog, i can tell ya that much!! Haha... hes a very gentle dog. I think that if i worked with him to be a fighting dog, i think that he would fight to the death, BUT...... I dont think that he would do it cuz its "inbred" in him. I think he would do it, because i want him to do it. (or i should say WOULD, but i dont LOL) So i think thats where the "gameness" comes from. He wants to please, thats it. I get Harley to chase all the cats away from my house (goddamn things spray everywhere and have killed my pine trees) I think if he caught one, he would kill it if i told him too, like get him going. But i really dont think that a pitbull, knows that he is "supposed" to be a fighter. Look at all our great dogs!! We got Rebal, Zeus, Bella, Otis and all the other beautifull pits on here (sorry i cant remember all the names, just the ones that i wanna steal LMAO, JK) But really, i think that a Game Pitbull, will do what its told with eagerness to please. I hope that this made some sence!!! I m not good at making sence of what i type!!


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

ok this is what i wana know why is gameness so damn important to everyone, yeah what i like about, excuse me, what i LOVE about our breed is there undying affection, willingness to please, and relentlessness (there head strong personalities) i would think everyone on this board has a dog like that, thats all i wanted from him. i dont think any of us NEED a true GAME dog. My dog coming close to death in a pit aint helping my situation at all, i guess I just came to the realization that if all this debate wether what gameness really is.. count me out i dont need a game dog.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ya thats why the lines are not that important to me... I know my dogs lines are and thats all that matters to me!!! I hear what you are saying Wheezie.


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## tjy52 (Oct 4, 2006)

See there? Before reading this debate, I thought dogs with game were just better at picking up bitches. You learn something every day.

I didn't know, however, that terriers were actualy bred into the pit. I understood that labeling them as such was a condition to get them into shows initially. The defenition of a terrier is a dog that will "go to ground" or burrow to get prey. I just don't see any indication of terriers in staffs or pits. I thought they were bred from mastiff blood and labled terriers due to the politics of the shows. Anyone know what "terrier" they came from?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

english white,now extinct.


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## Nation (Sep 27, 2006)

Eagerness to please and other great traits this breed has can be found in many other breeds as well. But Gameness is what seperates this breed from all others.

My main reason for loving this breed as much as I do is I love athletic powerful dogs who can handle rough play and tough jobs. Also if bred correctly pits are not great guard dogs..... because of there high degree of confidence they are great around family and friends who they may consider strangers. 

I have twins and the patience my dog shows around my children is above and beyond. I am sure many other breeds of dogs show this but the fact that the first breeders of this dog made sure that any APBT that showed signs of aggrssiveness towards people were not bred at all makes me feel a little more comfortable. Plus I dont think there is a more attractive breed out there.


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## bradthepit (Jul 30, 2006)

cane76 said:


> english white,now extinct.


A lot of Staffies and Pits had more English black and tan terrier, which originally was called the Manchester Terrier.


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## tjy52 (Oct 4, 2006)

Yea, the English White became "extinct" as a name, not a breed. It was deemed a "distinction without a difference" from the white-working fox terrier which evolved into the Fox Terrier, the Jack Russell and the Sealyham Terrier.

God I love the interniet!


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

lol ya true!!! I really dont know about Game dogs and bully dogs, I just know about my dog and that he is the coolest dog ever!!! I trust him more then people!!!! No offence boys but..... "Men come and go, but my dog will be there till the end" Haha....


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

bradthepit said:


> A lot of Staffies and Pits had more English black and tan terrier, which originally was called the Manchester Terrier.


Yes its more acurate to say they come from a fewdiffrent types of game terriers from the old world,but all history specificaly states english white terriers.


tjy52 said:


> Yea, the English White became "extinct" as a name, not a breed. It was deemed a "distinction without a difference" from the white-working fox terrier which evolved into the Fox Terrier, the Jack Russell and the Sealyham Terrier.


well if that logic is correct then the blue paul and red smut are still in existance,theyve just evolved into the apbt,j/k. 
i do find it hard to believe that the modern jack russel terrier and fox terrier have the heart and gameness of the original english white enough to be labled the same breed under a diffrent name,imho.


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## tjy52 (Oct 4, 2006)

cane76 said:


> Yes its more acurate to say they come from a fewdiffrent types of game terriers from the old world,but all history specificaly states english white terriers.
> 
> well if that logic is correct then the blue paul and red smut are still in existance,theyve just evolved into the apbt,j/k.
> i do find it hard to believe that the modern jack russel terrier and fox terrier have the heart and gameness of the original english white enough to be labled the same breed under a diffrent name,imho.


That's what I'm saying. Tough to believe.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Wow A Jack russel terrier... Boooo to them!!! Not a fan of them..


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