# Colors please, tri's and sables



## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Ok so looking at google which only made me more confused im trying to find good pictures of red tri's , red sables, champagne tri's. The coowner we have pep with right now says these pups are tri's but its hard to tell at this age i know ,and alot have changed already but would be nice to know what a true tri looks like compared to sables. all the sables I see have this black or dark coat over the light coat but the pups dont. I cant see the eye marks on any of them though { which is a big thing for a true tri right?} except one pup has them although this size its really hard to tell anyways im sure we will see in a couple weeks even. But has anyone heard or seen the ghost tri's? our breeder has a blue tri and his points are there but verrrry subtle he calls it a blue tri but reading google lol , they have posts about ghost tris and they look very much like his with very subtle points . Now is this an actual term or is this one of those selling gimmicks again?


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

ok well this is what i found on one site, would you count the dog a tri lie they have when the points that are usually tan on tris are black and dont have the eyebrows. You can see in some of the pictures what i mean. Tri-Colored


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

This kennel specializes in Tris and has a good layout of what they are genetically. Tri and Sable are both markings which is why they can come in blue, red, black.

HISTORY OF THE TRI COLOR GENE


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

angelbaby said:


> ok well this is what i found on one site, would you count the dog a tri lie they have when the points that are usually tan on tris are black and dont have the eyebrows. You can see in some of the pictures what i mean. Tri-Colored


Some of the dogs in there are Tri some are Sable and there are fawns lol so thats not a good site to try to educate with.

Thats one of the hard parts of learning on line. Anyone can post up info whether it is true or not.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

lol exactly i think googling confused me even more lol ... thanks for the link . I clicked on misc on that site i posted and they had tri's on that link as well and sables lol and even a couple that looked just red so seems like they may not know what they are looking at either lol.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Here are creeping tan points, so they do not have actual eyebrow points. Is this what the pups look like? They are still at/at the first one also has a Kbr gene for brindle


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

no 2 of the pups have 2 points above the eyes of tan but they are so tiny its really hard to see, will be watching how they turn out in the next week or 2 should be able to tell what marks are there or not there. we originally though t 5 were tri but one is looking more champagne color and one of the others is looking more red with blue or black face. ill post pics of them as they get bigger but was just trying to get a feel for what the true tri was compared to the others mentioned


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

the ones you posted old blood are they considered tri when the face is more of a mask rather then points?


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes, technically. They are still chocolate and tan with white, then they'd be called tri. It is the tan point gene the same but they think there is modifying genes some dogs can have. It is the same on the chest region, there isn't actually points there is a lot of tan.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

A tri has dots over it's eyes only. Like a Dobie or a Rottie. When it looks more like a Malamute it is not tri. Tri is clearly defined. A heart shaped mask is not a tri. You could technically call them tri's(because there are 3 colors) but it *is not *caused by the same gene as tan points.

Sable's can very from very light almost clear red to extremely heavily shaded.

Dog Coat Colour Genetics


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

ya see ive heard both theories like old blood said 3 colors = tri and then also heard tri is distinct marks and points of tan like the rotti markings. I think alot of people are confused on this issue as well iv seen dogs on other boards marked as tris but then after seeing some sables today they look closer to that.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Well really 3 colors would be Tri Colored. However the Tri marking that is refereed to as Tri has the Tan points, that is what defines the marking as such. As Aimee said they are 2 different genes.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Sorry to go off on a limb... But IDK care what they call it... I would love a tri with the specific markings they are gorgeous.... But tri to me is three distinct different shades on the dog....


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

ya i love them too , im under the understanding now you can have a tri colored dog but too have a true tri it needs to be the classic rotti markings with just points of tan . I just think they are such nice looking colors { I have a big thing for rottis maybe thats part of the reason lol} I remeber the 1st time i ever seen a tri my friend on the phone told me what it was { it was a dog off his site} and I could have sworn he called them tribe colors lol so for like 6 months i was talking about these tribe colored pits and everyone was like WTF LMAO.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

I remember the first tri I ever saw several years back and I told the guy that it had to be mixed with a rottie... LOL yeah I had stupid moments like everyone else.....


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

lmao thats wat cali said when i showed him that dog years ago he said it must be mixed with rottie its a mutt , lmao now he loves them too


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

lol thats too funny..... Cali and I have a whole one thing in common hehehehehehehe


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I think Marley would be a red sable, not a tri, although he has 3 color the marking pattern is not specific like that of rotts or dobies. I noticed one of your pups looks like it may turn out to be colored like him, although he's a rotty mutt lmao  any who here's a pic where you can see the black hairs that run along his neck and back.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

ya one of the ones we originally thought was a tri has changed a bit in the last couple days already and kinda looks darker on the top hairs like that so very well could be. find it fascinating how much they change in such a short time makes me wonder how they all will turn out lol guess I have to wait and see. I hate waiting . is dosia counted as a seal? i have a couple that are black but not pure black like pepper they almost have reds and brown hues to them in different light.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Honestly I still have no clue lol. He has gotten so much lighter since he was a pup. He kinda looks like a dark blue with a fawn and chocolate under cast. FH called him slate blue but I'm not really sure what that means.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

This is one of the most recent pics I took of him, can you see the light chocolate by his mouth and neck?


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

lol ya i have seen pics of him where he looks jet black but then in other pics you see chocolate and blue very different.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

ya in that pic you can deff see chocolate.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

It's a new color we shall call it Dosia loll


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

aimee235 said:


> A tri has dots over it's eyes only. Like a Dobie or a Rottie. When it looks more like a Malamute it is not tri. Tri is clearly defined. A heart shaped mask is not a tri. You could technically call them tri's(because there are 3 colors) but it *is not *caused by the same gene as tan points.
> 
> Sable's can very from very light almost clear red to extremely heavily shaded.
> 
> Dog Coat Colour Genetics


If you know how it is inherited please do share. As research as yet to isolate the exact cause from what I've read.

I do know APBT color genetics and genetics of a few other breeds as different breeds carry different genes.

Yes sables almost always have black hairs somewhere, but they are genetically different AyAy or they can be AyAt. Most heavy shaded sables I've known have coincidentally been AyAt though an AyAt may not have heavy shading.

Sable is clearly different visually as well. The intensity. The density of the darker hairs and the hairs themselves being tipped. Black becomes chocolate with the liver gene, which is clearly seen in the red nose dogs initially posted. While sables have black/brown tipped hairs and such dogs don't have the rich chocolate color of the tan points when they have the liver gene. They have darker red hairs mostly with some chocolate - brown. Sables have more tipped hairs instead of full color, a true tan point has solid colored hairs.

While thete are unknown genes involved to produce the creeping tan effect I stated they are genetically the same as a tan point (i.e. tri) since both are atat at the A Locus.

There are several similar patterns produced by different genetics. Domino, urajiro, creeping tan, Grizzle, agouti and sables for instance can have similarities. All are similar and produce a widows peak even if different genes are the cause.

Creeping tan 



























Tan point



























Sable



























This is sable red nose









This is a dog on hammonds yard, possibly urajiro ? He had a number of tan point and creeping tan colored dogs on his yard at the time and a couple odd balls like this. While urajiro is recognized and commonly seen in spitz breeds it has been documented in several other breeds, at least assumed until they find the genes which cause the pattern to test other breeds and prove yay or nay. There are such colored dogs as this from the line which produced the chocolate and tans I initially posted.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

very cool , thanks for posting this


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Those "creeping tan" pictures are not very clear, but it still looks like they are not solid black with tan points. The lighter color seems to be spread through their coat. Which makes me think they are just heavily shaded sables.

They are not genetically the same because they are at the A locus. Since there are different alleles responsible for the different colorations.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

heres one of the ones im pretty sure is tri he has marks above his eyes but its hard to get on camera this room is crappy light and the flash tends to blend colors all into one for some reason , ill have to get better ones when they are older and I can handle them a bit more. the girl that looked just like him though has turned darker so not thinking she is tri but maybe a sable.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Cute puppy! I'm pretty sure he is Sable.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

very well could be , ill have to get pics up ina couple weeks when he is bigger and see what everyone thinks. I know convincing certain guys here that the dogs arent tri but sable wont really be easy lol ill prob be told im wrong but I would like to know the differences and learn to identify them for my own knowledge. I think the sables are pretty anyways so not hurting my feelings by saying they are that if thats what they are lol . I should get a pic of the littel girl i really like up she is kinda a champagne color with lighter marks on her cheeks very different looking dont know what they call her though , they said champagne tri but seeing this they could be wrong again lol.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

When you get more pics I'd love to see them. 

The main thing is tri's are usually very clearly defined. If the colors are blending together or the black isn't really black then it's usually a sable. Unless it's a brindle tri. Those can be expected to have brindles on their points. The blending of black and brown through the coat definitely gives it away.

My dogs are both really really dark sable although some people call the particular shade of sable seal.

Sable's are agouti's. Agouti is banding on the hair or some have multiple colored hairs spread through the coat. If it's not agouti the hairs will be solid.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

angelbaby said:


>


Definitely Smutt MARKINGS, blue fawn in color from left to right, Melony, Cree, and Pig on her back as always










Pig around 10 months old


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

so pig is smut? the one on the left is that smut or just blue fawn , or do you call that blue fawn smut? cause the one i posted would then be called a red smut? or red sable? sorry lol im confused ..i think.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

angelbaby said:


> so pig is smut? the one on the left is that smut or just blue fawn , or do you call that blue fawn smut? cause the one i posted would then be called a red smut? or red sable? sorry lol im confused ..i think.


Smutt/Sable is a marking pattern not so much as a "color". The color is the color, blue fawn. Both girls actually have the smutt markings... Melony is a much lighter smutt that many don't notice unless they are seeing her in person, so pig is my better example for the actual color and pattern.

Also, I started a similar thread when my babies were born asking if it would be a blue fawn tri or something along those lines and that is what everyone here came to the conclusion after a pretty long thread.

Here's a picture that was able to capture her markings better than most



















The bottom one is normally how she photographs


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

very pretty , I have one girl im in love with here she is that light color markings the guys were callin her champagne tri but she is most likely the same as your girl .


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

They're about sevenish weeks here


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

this is Tyson. he is the very first dog we ever owned. we started weightpull after he was about 3 years old. he is only NKC registered and on his paperwork they call him a cow patch blue fawn. im not sure what he would he would be maybe a tri color..... when he is out in the sun you can see the blue outline his spots


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

aimee235 said:


> Those "creeping tan" pictures are not very clear, but it still looks like they are not solid black with tan points. The lighter color seems to be spread through their coat. Which makes me think they are just heavily shaded sables.
> 
> They are not genetically the same because they are at the A locus. Since there are different alleles responsible for the different colorations.


Those are the best I can do. They are fairly clear to see the distinction between the black and tan, unlike a heavy shaded sable. I'm not on my computer so I have to work with what I already had uploaded. The photos from Hammonds yard are large and high resolution so I will try to find a way to share those.

at is THE SAME allele as tan point, one from each parent required. It is what is recognized as a tan point or tri. While there is an unknown modifier its the same on the A locus. That is why/how tan points produce the color (its not possible for them to produce sable at all). Tan points can only produce genetically tan point dogs, no matter what they look like. Because a dog gets 1 allele from each parent on each locus. Tan points are atat so their offspring will all be atat even if they are visually different.

In salukis the gene is at the E locus and Grizzle salukis are all atat (that is genetically a tan point, the exact same) but clearly have a widows peak and vast amount of tan due to the allele that modifies the pattern.

Grizzle salukis atat with the Eg allele


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

angelbaby said:


> heres one of the ones im pretty sure is tri he has marks above his eyes but its hard to get on camera this room is crappy light and the flash tends to blend colors all into one for some reason , ill have to get better ones when they are older and I can handle them a bit more. the girl that looked just like him though has turned darker so not thinking she is tri but maybe a sable.


The pup is certainly a sable. The hairs are clearly brown and black, and tipped, faint, not solid black. Tri refers to a black and tan with white. A tri is evident even when young, I have pics of a litter of black and chocolate tris if o could post I would. But the look the same as pups as the adults. Sables have a faint outline not the solid contrast.

In my post with the tan points and sables you will see a young male laying (he has brindle points also) and then the sables I've posted a female. The are littermates, right away the tan points were easily distinguished from the sables.

Other dogs can have tan points (ive a photo of a brown and white male I can post with them and probably some other sables) but a black and tan, tri or true tan point (atat) will be black with tan points. If they have the liver gene (red nose) they will be chocolate and tan as the gene causes black to be chocolate. If they have the dilution gene then they will be blue and tan as the gene turns black blue.

They are just as distinguishable as pups as an adult black and tan would be.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

circlemkennels said:


> this is Tyson. he is the very first dog we ever owned. we started weightpull after he was about 3 years old. he is only NKC registered and on his paperwork they call him a cow patch blue fawn. im not sure what he would he would be maybe a tri color..... when he is out in the sun you can see the blue outline his spots


He is blue fawn and white.

A tri would be blue with tan points. Your dog is fawn with the hairs that would normally be black diluted to blue.

A blue tri looks the same marked as a black tri but the black is blue.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

do you know anything about these so called ghost tris? I know a guy who has one he was blue with all the right points the tan was more of a fawn almost blue so it was very subtle, is that still counted as a tri or would that just be a blue with different dilutes of the color in certain points? I have seen people on the EE advertise there dog as ghost tri as the color. my original thinking was that it was a selling feature just something to hype the dog up like the "purple " ones people are advertising now.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

see things like this confuse me cause I dont even see points on this dog but he said champagne tri BADDEST CHAMPAGNE TRI MALE EVER!!!! - The Elite Edge American Bully Forum maybe its his pics.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't see the points at all. Doesn't look champagne for sure? I see some lighter coloring around the mouth which isn't a tri, dogs can have lighter tones around the mouth or as you see in other areas of their coat. Let me if I can pull up some pics.

Do you have an example of a ghost tri?


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

i hjave been trying to find good pics but everyone i find advertising them doesnt have pics and i dont have pics of the one i know, ill keep looking see if I can find a good one


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

Old_Blood said:


> He is blue fawn and white.
> 
> A tri would be blue with tan points. Your dog is fawn with the hairs that would normally be black diluted to blue.
> 
> A blue tri looks the same marked as a black tri but the black is blue.


thanks.. hes 5 now and hes the only one we dont do weightpull with.. we dont have any others colored up like him so i didnt know exactly what he woulb be


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

heres one I found not a good example was trying to find a blue , but this advertises as a ghost tri.GHOST TRI COLORED MALE PUP FOR SALE RARE COLOR - $1,000 - Detroit, Michigan
heres a bit better one, but still not as subtle as I have seen in person 
DOG MUSCLES


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

The first one just looks sable the second is a blue brindle tri.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

aimee235 said:


> The first one just looks sable the second is a blue brindle tri.


Agreed...............


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

If you go back to my other point a true tri (tan point atat)
Can only be 
Black and tan
Chocolate and tan 
Blue and tan
They could also be lilac if they have both the liver and dilution genes

I think some people are trying pass off sables with shading / points as rare making up a new term ? I couldn't see the 2nd dog, it wouldn't load for me.
Dogs can have lighter points on their coat too, but I wouldn't call it something special rare.


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