# Scatterbred



## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Why do people consider scatterbreeding a bad thing?


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

With he APBT good traits are double up by linebreding and inbreeding. scatterbreeding is introducing other lines with diffrent traits your not going to get a tight consistant dog.

An outcross it good here and there when the breeding is getting to tight IMO but to scatterbred isn't really acheiving much. its like baking a cake and just throwing in any items of food and guessing what will come out of the oven.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Genetically unpredictable both in conformation and temperament.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I cant speak for everyone but for me I prefer a dog bred tightly and consistent with the traits and qualities they were originally selected for. If you have been breeding proven traits and qualities for so many generations you know what your going to get out of those dogs generation after generation. When you start throwing stuff together consistency and quality is lost and you really have no direction or clue as to what you would be producing. This is just my perspective not all scatter bred dogs are worthless but I think with the tighter bred dogs there is more consistency in the offspring and you are preserving the traits and qualities behind those family of dogs. I don't like surprises I would rather breed what's proven to work lol.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Great replies.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> I cant speak for everyone but for me I prefer a dog bred tightly and consistent with the traits and qualities they were originally selected for. If you have been breeding proven traits and qualities for so many generations you know what your going to get out of those dogs generation after generation. When you start throwing stuff together consistency and quality is lost and you really have no direction or clue as to what you would be producing. This is just my perspective not all scatter bred dogs are worthless but I think with the tighter bred dogs there is more consistency in the offspring and you are preserving the traits and qualities behind those family of dogs. I don't like surprises I would rather breed what's proven to work lol.


Exactly you lose what that individual line offers by scatter breeding. You also loose ability to keep consistency with temperament, drives, health, etc.

Just as everyone else has said really, you have good answers.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Also makes the peds look tidy LOL nothing worse than reading a scattered ped.


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## BlueBabies (Jul 15, 2011)

MISSAPBT said:


> With he APBT good traits are double up by linebreding and inbreeding. scatterbreeding is introducing other lines with diffrent traits your not going to get a tight consistant dog.
> 
> An outcross it good here and there when the breeding is getting to tight IMO but to scatterbred isn't really acheiving much. its like baking a cake and just throwing in any items of food and guessing what will come out of the oven.


I'm not a breeder, havent been, dont ever plan on being.. so i'm a little lost.. you say inbreeding? how closely do you breed apbt?? i mean like mother/son, or like mother/sixth cousin twice removed, kinda thing?? sorry just a little confused


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

MISSAPBT said:


> Also makes the peds look tidy LOL nothing worse than reading a scattered ped.


Ugh I hear that trying to put all that slop together and figure out what the breeder was thinking nothing more frustrating lol.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

BlueBabies said:


> I'm not a breeder, havent been, dont ever plan on being.. so i'm a little lost.. you say inbreeding? how closely do you breed apbt?? i mean like mother/son, or like mother/sixth cousin twice removed, kinda thing?? sorry just a little confused


I dont want to read and run but it is home time lol.

Inbreeding is ok ONCE IMO mother/son father/daughter you dont want to double inbreed then you wil start gettting bad things comeout.

In saying mother/6th cousin that more of a streched linebreed, actually I would say scatter unless that 9th cousing was linebred also.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Some of the best dogs I have ever owned were scatterbred but with scatter bred dogs you will lack consistency.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Ugh I hear that* trying to put all that slop together and figure out what the breeder was thinking* nothing more frustrating lol.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

RileyRoo said:


>


:rofl: yep that pretty much sums it up lol


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

Wellllll I'm doing both... scatterbreeding and inbreeding... My tightly bred dogs are consistant with good traits BUT the bad traits are just as consistant... I have introduced other lines in order to strengthen the weakness, and re-enforce the good so to speak... 

IMO when you start to go to tight you start to lose more of the good and go toward the weakness, thus requiring more and more culling... I've seen and owned tightly bred, inbred dogs that have a awesome pedigree that aren't worth the paper the peds are printed on.... literally... I've seen some trainwrecks in both, inbred and scatterbred, so its all a matter of what the breeder is going for... 

Honestly it doesn't matter to me if other folks don't understand the direction I'm going by looking at my peds, it matters that I know what I'm going for and achieveing... Course they are welcome to ask, and I can explain my thought process, but as to them understanding thats a toss up..lmao 

One of the best bitches I've ever owned or seen is a scatterbred bitch...redboy/jocko/CH Bull Sh it/ Nigerino... she produced better than herself when I took her to a pure colby male or to a heavy redboy/jocko male... in fact the colby cross was even better because the offspring could actually THINK where the redboy/jock cross made nutty fight crazy dogs with not a bit of brains....

It all comes down to a personal preference... I prefer to let the dog itself speak instead of the pedigree, there are way to many paper hangers, and generally shady people to rely on paperwork to be 100% honest...


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## Nicke (May 21, 2011)

Really interesting thread! Pretty much answers a lot of my own thoughts...!
I like this forum


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

LadyRampage said:


> Wellllll I'm doing both... scatterbreeding and inbreeding... My tightly bred dogs are consistant with good traits BUT the bad traits are just as consistant... I have introduced other lines in order to strengthen the weakness, and re-enforce the good so to speak...
> 
> IMO when you start to go to tight you start to lose more of the good and go toward the weakness, thus requiring more and more culling... I've seen and owned tightly bred, inbred dogs that have a awesome pedigree that aren't worth the paper the peds are printed on.... literally... I've seen some trainwrecks in both, inbred and scatterbred, so its all a matter of what the breeder is going for...
> 
> ...


Is it still considered scatterbreeding if you can explain the direction you're going in? I thought scatterbreeding was just randomly breeding dogs from different lines and crossing your fingers.

Genuine question BTW, not trying to be clever.


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

IMO scatterbreeding is when you are taking several different lines and blending them together instead of staying within one family of dogs.

I have clean goals and direction, but I'm still blending in several lines to create my dogs.


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## BlueBabies (Jul 15, 2011)

this is all very confusing to me.. just one of the reasons i dont breed!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

A scatterbred dog is a dog that is not linebred. many lines in one dog. Really no different than a dog without papers, you really have no idea what you have or what you will get.


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

My take .
With any project you start , you have a beginning and the point you want to be . It is likely that ( if you are smart ) you will start with a foundation that you know and like .. but will find something you want to improve to make them exactly what you want( the only reason i can see to start breeding at all.. progession to your own vision) . So you pick and chose carefull breedings that will reinforce the things you love and at the same time , add the traits you are looking to add! So eventually you get what you want and you can just start linebreeding . Ofcourse you toss in an outcross if you feel things are gettin a lil stale or too closely bred .. but even then you want a line that is still along the guidlines you set for your line.
Now with scatter breeding , you rteally have no plan . you toss 2 dogs together and hope for the best. 
Doesnt mean the dogs are bad .. just not really set tward any particular goals.

but im still a newb . So the others prolly answered it better . Just thought id offer it from a outsiders point of view.


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

LadyRampage said:


> IMO scatterbreeding is when you are taking several different lines and blending them together instead of staying within one family of dogs.
> 
> I have clean goals and direction, but I'm still blending in several lines to create my dogs.


I dont see that as scatter breeding if your traveling in a planned direction.

an example of scatter breeding in my opinion is tossing a show dog in a game line . Well thats a real obvious one.


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> A scatterbred dog is a dog that is not linebred. many lines in one dog. Really no different than a dog without papers, you really have no idea what you have or what you will get.


Interesting take on scatterbred....

So your saying if you have a dog with four different lines in it you don't have any idea what you have or will get from that dog? I see it as having a bigger gene pool to pull traits from and blend together to get the stronger, more well rounded dog. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love my colby dogs, but they have flaws that will not be corrected by staying within the same family, they are too tight to keep going tighter, unless I want to lose traits. I personally think that people get to hung up on the tighter the better thinking, too much of any one thing isn't the best and yeah you will get a dog or two that are better but the tighter you go the lower the odds (again my opinion)..

Of course I'm not talking about taking RE dogs and blending it with the game lines I currently have, I'm talking about different game lines blending together to produce a more well rounded dog. I've also had the dogs I'm working with for many years so I am very familiar with what traits are strong and the weakness and breed to compliament those traits.

Here is one of my inbred dogs:
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [370148] :: WILLY X RAYNE

Here is one of my scatterbred dogs:
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [324371] :: DRAKE/TINA


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Little google here and there and.....

Encyclopedia of the American Pit Bull Terrier : Scatterbreeding


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## YAHHOO (Nov 27, 2010)

LadyRampage said:


> Interesting take on scatterbred....
> 
> So your saying if you have a dog with four different lines in it you don't have any idea what you have or will get from that dog? I see it as having a bigger gene pool to pull traits from and blend together to get the stronger, more well rounded dog. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love my colby dogs, but they have flaws that will not be corrected by staying within the same family, they are too tight to keep going tighter, unless I want to lose traits. I personally think that people get to hung up on the tighter the better thinking, too much of any one thing isn't the best and yeah you will get a dog or two that are better but the tighter you go the lower the odds (again my opinion)..
> 
> ...


It's called outcrossing when you are doing it for a goal . Most dogs that are scatterbred won't have any consistency or purpose to the breeding. Just bred the dogs cause they were good pets.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I don't understand why you need to scatter breed to get rid of bad traits outcrossing with another family of dogs here and there will fix what's lacking or bring in something new to tighten up and correct any issues. But I see no reason to start throwing stuff together dog men already laid the foundation for us so we really don't need to do anything but follow the blue prints, cull hard, and tweak things here and there with line breeding, and out crossing. 

Lol Stacia are you talking about a battle cross or a 4 way cross?


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

Keep the good posts coming, lots of great info and opinions


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> ? I see it as having a bigger gene pool to pull traits from and blend together to get the stronger, more well rounded dog


Which is exactly why you will not know what you are getting. You have a HUGE gene pool, each line with tons of variable characteristics. When you line breed you minimize this, so you have a good handle on what you should produce. Until you have mixed those 4 gene pools over and over, thus linebreeding the 4 then its anybodies guess.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Nizmo said:


> Keep the good posts coming, lots of great info and opinions


Definitely. Very interesting to see what people's definitions are. Great info everyone!


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> Which is exactly why you will not know what you are getting. You have a HUGE gene pool, each line with tons of variable characteristics. When you line breed you minimize this, so you have a good handle on what you should produce. Until you have mixed those 4 gene pools over and over, thus linebreeding the 4 then its anybodies guess.


This is a good point... I certainly understand the need and purpose of linebreeding, but in all reality it is done ALOT but not necessarily done the RIGHT way.. many people are relying to much on matching up the paper worrk then paying attention to the dogs themselves, and usually to make a buck... And what are we talking about here.....4 totally different types and lines or 4 lines that are similiar but have certain traits that are stronger in that line.. The game lines all tend to go back to a similiar gene pool, each line (family or individual based) has broken off and gone a different way depending on what the breeder wanted from their dogs. For example if I have 4 dogs (2m 2f) and someone else had the exact same 4 dogs odds are those dogs wouldn't be matched up the exact way because of the individual preference of the person matching the dogs up. What male and female I match up may be very different from your opinion on matching up, and as simple as that things go in a different direction....is this making sense? its hard to type out my thoughts in a rational manner..lol

The colby dogs are based on a family of dog, which gives you a little more room to work and linebreed, where say a Jeep bred dog is based off a single dog, thus limiting just how many times you can inbreed before losing more of the good and getting more of the bad... to much of anything isn't a good thing IMO.

so when is it considered a battlecross, or outcross instead of a scatterbreeding? My yard is slowly going in the direction to be based off 3 bellymate dogs that are a 50/50 cross, sometimes I go toward the little john blood, sometimes I go toward the eli blood and sometimes I take another 50/50 cross of the little john to a colby and take it back into by lj/eli crosses.. but hell my little john blood is a redboy jocko cross... Guess what I'm asking is WHEN does it become a family to start linebreeding from?? and there are very few pure familys of dogs left, pure meaning that they have stayed with a select line of dogs and didn't introduce any other line, like colby or heinzl or sorrells...because redboy/jocko is 2 different dogs that are basically considered a line...

My program hasn't thrown me any surprises, when I first did a certain cross I could clearly see traits from both parents/grandparents showing up in the offspring.. My opinion has always been to look at the grandparents closely as well as the parents because alot of times you are going to see traits from the grandparents just as clearly. Ok... I've rambled enough for the night, hope it at least made sense to someone..lmao

Sadie.....I've done 50/50 crosses and the best bitch I've ever owned was a 4 way, guess you could say battlecross, and I have never regretted breeding her or any of them... Not saying every cross I've done has worked, becuase I'd be lying but if I have 2 dogs that have strengths and weakness that compliament each other I'm not afraid to try it and see what happens just because its might not line up pretty on paper, especially when I've seen a gen or two behind those dogs...lol

The old school dogmen were looking at traits and building off a family of dogs or a single dog, today it seems that more and more people are breeding off looking at a piece of paper. I can honestly say I've seen more jacked up APBTs that were linebreed/inbreed simple because the breeders cared only about selling dogs and not about improving the breed.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I don't consider battle crosses and 4 way crosses scatter bred. When I think of scatter bred I think of BS dogs throw together with no consistency in any direction just dogs being bred no thought no direction no consistency in traits this is what I think when I think scatter bred LOL. Just a bunch of junk in a pedigree I have seen some nice battle crosses or 4 way crosses some people I know swear that dogs bred this way are awesome.


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

Honestly Sadie that is very much how I feel, but I've been told many times that I've got scatterbred mutts, which frankly hurts my feelings and I'm thinking seriously about scrapping my whole program and starting over with a nice RE dog............ 

nawwww maybe not....I'll stick with my mutts..lmao


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

LadyRampage said:


> Honestly Sadie that is very much how I feel, but I've been told many times that I've got scatterbred mutts, which frankly hurts my feelings and I'm thinking seriously about scrapping my whole program and starting over with a nice RE dog............
> 
> nawwww maybe not....I'll stick with my mutts..lmao


i would cry if you did that ... 260 lb man crying is bad to look at .
id post it on youtube and blame you for it ...
:rain:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LadyRampage said:


> Honestly Sadie that is very much how I feel, but I've been told many times that I've got scatterbred mutts, which frankly hurts my feelings and I'm thinking seriously about scrapping my whole program and starting over with a nice RE dog............
> 
> nawwww maybe not....I'll stick with my mutts..lmao


BWAHHAAAAAAAA ... Girl your crazy !!! Stacia whatever your doing they are your dogs you don't breed for other people you breed for yourself first so bump what everyone else thinks. Like I said I do know people who breed this way and they swear by these type of crosses. I can't knock it because I have never tried it LOL... I just don't like it when breeders are throwing stuff together without having a clue to what end is up you obviously have been breeding your dogs long enough to know what works for you and that is what it's supposed to be about at the end of the day. The peds you sent me I knew every dog in those peds there was not one that I didn't know or recognize. Except for CH Bull **** BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!:woof:


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

LOL!! I'd pay to see that vid motocross..

Sadie I've learned to develope a thick skin over the years, I've had people bashing me for owning colby dogs, hence where some ask me about my curlbys lol, and generally give me a hard time...but I can honestly say what I've got is working, and I'm consistantly improving on what I have so I don't doubt my program or goals. I can tell you that there were a few people that realllllyyyy bashed me about my colby dogs then a few years later were hitting me up to get one....lets just say I have a long memory and they won't be feeding a dog from my yard if I have anything to say about it....lmao 

I have no problem absorbing information and ideas from people who have been breeding dogs, are very experienced, or even are at the learning stage where they are absorbing anything and everything...hell if I stopped listening and learning I might as well get out of the dogs because no one can ever know all there is to know.

Have to say I've really enjoyed this thread, loved the different views, and have been reading and studying up... I love to see people with knowledge and even tempers having a discussion, we don't have to agree but at least we can have a discussion without tempers flairing and people flying off the handle. Nothing like sitting back and talking dogs and bouncing views and ideas off knowledgable people!


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

LadyRampage said:


> LOL!! I'd pay to see that vid motocross..
> 
> Sadie I've learned to develope a thick skin over the years, I've had people bashing me for owning colby dogs, hence where some ask me about my curlbys lol, and generally give me a hard time...but I can honestly say what I've got is working, and I'm consistantly improving on what I have so I don't doubt my program or goals. I can tell you that there were a few people that realllllyyyy bashed me about my colby dogs then a few years later were hitting me up to get one....lets just say I have a long memory and they won't be feeding a dog from my yard if I have anything to say about it....lmao
> 
> ...


Fine , ill post the vid if you go to RE.. but you gotta lemme pick some of your real dogs before you switch !( i need another girl to balance my boy / girl ratio lol )


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LadyRampage said:


> LOL!! I'd pay to see that vid motocross..
> 
> Sadie I've learned to develope a thick skin over the years, I've had people bashing me for owning colby dogs, hence where some ask me about my curlbys lol, and generally give me a hard time...but I can honestly say what I've got is working, and I'm consistantly improving on what I have so I don't doubt my program or goals. I can tell you that there were a few people that realllllyyyy bashed me about my colby dogs then a few years later were hitting me up to get one....lets just say I have a long memory and they won't be feeding a dog from my yard if I have anything to say about it....lmao
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

I agree I am by no means anywhere near as experienced as some of you I have never bred any animal but it's amazing what you can learn from others who have been in the dog game for years and years and taking the time to pick up a book and read. I only hope if I ever do get to the point where I am ready to breed I have the support of good dog people to kick my butt when I am messing up. Just think if we had the experience that some of these older dog folks in the game have it would probably cost us a lot less screwing up in the end. I mean you have to make mistakes or crawl before you can walk but some mistakes can cost you more than what it's worth. I love picking folks brains when I get the chance to LOL.


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

Sadie said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> I agree I am by no means anywhere near as experienced as some of you I have never bred any animal but it's amazing what you can learn from others who have been in the dog game for years and years and taking the time to pick up a book and read. I only hope if I ever do get to the point where I am ready to breed I have the support of good dog people to kick my butt when I am messing up. Just think if we had the experience that some of these older dog folks in the game have it would probably cost us a lot less screwing up in the end. I mean you have to make mistakes or crawl before you can walk but some mistakes can cost you more than what it's worth. I love picking folks brains when I get the chance to LOL.


LOL i totally understand on the brain pickin!
i think Howard Burgess regrets giving me his home phone lol!


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

motocross308 said:


> Fine , ill post the vid if you go to RE.. but you gotta lemme pick some of your real dogs before you switch !( i need another girl to balance my boy / girl ratio lol )


Hmmmm I've got a 20 month old bitch I'm looking to place in a knowledgable home... hit me up!! lol


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

Sadie said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> I agree I am by no means anywhere near as experienced as some of you I have never bred any animal but it's amazing what you can learn from others who have been in the dog game for years and years and taking the time to pick up a book and read. I only hope if I ever do get to the point where I am ready to breed I have the support of good dog people to kick my butt when I am messing up. Just think if we had the experience that some of these older dog folks in the game have it would probably cost us a lot less screwing up in the end. I mean you have to make mistakes or crawl before you can walk but some mistakes can cost you more than what it's worth. I love picking folks brains when I get the chance to LOL.


I have had the opportunity to pick the brains of a few old school dogmen over the years, I'm thankful that they took time to talk with me and give me pointers here and there!! Have to say I try to always keep an open mind and have no problem sharing my failures or successes with someone who is willing to listen and learn, heck when you help someone else sometimes you learn just as much! You have some good people in your corner Sadie!


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

LadyRampage said:


> I have had the opportunity to pick the brains of a few old school dogmen over the years, I'm thankful that they took time to talk with me and give me pointers here and there!! Have to say I try to always keep an open mind and have no problem sharing my failures or successes with someone who is willing to listen and learn, heck when you help someone else sometimes you learn just as much! You have some good people in your corner Sadie!


And now newbies like me look up to you.  haha


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Hey Lady I totally agree with your post, the problem on here (the internet) its hard to see what people are doing. Its very true that if you breed 4 sperate lines with similar traits you are closing in on what you will get in the offspring. However and by reading your post, I am sure you are well aware of this, if they are random dogs bred together then the outcome is a crapshoot!

On another note, if you know what you have and you know what you want to do with that line and you know what another line does, bring it in. Im not saying its wrong to outcross, that is necessary. People should be allowed to do as they please!


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Scattered dogs usually won't be as consistent with their parents (they may have different traits than what you liked about them) the litter will likely vary and your dog won't produce consistently. It's not as predictable.

The above is with random mating. However assortative mating is breeding together dogs like in type though unrelated. This can get you consistentcy as you are breeding together dogs with the same traits for generations. So you are getting like genes / traits and eliminating traits you don't want.



BlueBabies said:


> I'm not a breeder, havent been, dont ever plan on being.. so i'm a little lost.. you say inbreeding? how closely do you breed apbt?? i mean like mother/son, or like mother/sixth cousin twice removed, kinda thing?? sorry just a little confused


I inbred close, line breed and lose linebreeding too.

Inbreeding can be beneficial in getting the traits you want but bad recessive traits can pop up and at times mutation (which can be bad) and damage can occur.


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

Old_Blood said:


> . However assortative mating is breeding together dogs like in type though unrelated. This can get you consistentcy as you are breeding together dogs with the same traits for generations. So you are getting like genes / traits and eliminating traits you don't want.
> 
> I inbred close, line breed and lose linebreeding too.
> 
> Inbreeding can be beneficial in getting the traits you want but bad recessive traits can pop up and at times mutation (which can be bad) and damage can occur.


Ok what you said...lol This is exactly what I was trying to say in my lonnnnggg drawn out posting..lol Great post Old Blood!


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

LadyRampage said:


> Ok what you said...lol This is exactly what I was trying to say in my lonnnnggg drawn out posting..lol Great post Old Blood!


I got what you were saying. You and Sadie both had great post imo.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

Many APBT breeders felt if a line had bad genes pop up, they are culled off (or at least not bred).
This is an advantage of tight breeding. The bad traits become exposed for the breeder to be able to find and remove them. These are not new genes some how being created.

If you scatterbred (outcross) to get rid of bad traits, you have just left them in the gene pool for others to have to deal with them when they randomly pop back up again. 

An outcross can be useful from time to time. Back in the day one knew the outcross was game. Even then, it was often one game line bred to the same game line. They mesh right. An outcross is always tightened back up. If you do two (out-crosses) back to back, I do not think you will ever have control over your gene pool.
Great thread!


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