# searching and need some help please



## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Im looking for the ultimate red on the planet can y'all help me in my search please


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

FLAMETREE - FLAMETREE ,,,,, American PitbullTerrier

I believe the owner is also a member on here. As far as APBT goes, of all the pics I've seen his are the best looking reds. He also works and shows them as well as health tests I think.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Do you have any preference's besides color?


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Ya structural sound and just a freak of a dog. I want the perfect red male. I have what I feel is the best possible red female imo and I want to find the best red out. Health rated would be a big +


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

if you wernt in michigan ...


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

well prefect for you is gonna be different than perfect for me . a ped of the girl you got and what your looking for outta pups may help. if i remember correctly , you breed some nice bullies ?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

motocross308 said:


> if you wernt in michigan ...


:goodpost::rofl::goodpost:


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I have a red dog you can have LMAO { just dont tell my man} but seriously you are wanting a bully or a APBT? I have seen some really nice kennels with some reds not sure on the bloodlines you are looking for though , if you get back I can check with them and see if they match up to what you are looking for.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Before I post my list, I will give the disclaimer that if you're looking for a dog to breed, not all of these breeders are going to give you breeding rights.

Matrix Kennels: American Pit Bull Terriers
LEATHERNECKK9S.COM
Home - Southern Inferno Kennels
BLAIZEN KENNELS HOME PAGE -- More chocolate than reds, but still worth a look.
Forest Hill -- Ali is perfect. Too bad he's in Poland.
http://www.itsmysite.com/bnb/


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

motocross308 said:


> if you wernt in michigan ...


It's nice to live nearby though


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

^^ true....... now I have ozzy playin in my head..


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> ^^ true....... now I have ozzy playin in my head..


ironman ? lol


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Can you believe that song was a B side song on the 45 (can't remember what was on the A side?)


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> Can you believe that song was a B side song on the 45 (can't remember what was on the A side?)


whats a 45? record?


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

angelbaby said:


> whats a 45? record?


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

paranoid album


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> It's nice to live nearby though


i live too close .. very near to that i seek , close enough to be denied.
ther may be a glimmer of hope yet i have still not tried to seek it out !


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I sought and found, and may seek another


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> I sought and found, and may seek another


i take it your more than happy with the product of said producer that reminds soe of an old black sabbath song ?


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Thanks everyone, those are some greqt leads. ill keep looking around. I don't think ones opinions of what I breed should change what I'm looking for. The female is dangerzone and swoggers. I know of a few good breeders around me, but thought I'd try and see if something else was out there.

Bully is a style or look imo not a breed. I'm not one of those abkc guys, my dogs are ADBA n UKC and they work. 
Motocross ur not too far away, we should meet up sometime n shoot the breeze. Ur more than welcome to come by if u like.


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## Brutus0124 (Mar 22, 2011)

American Bullies and apbt's are two different breeds.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Again thanks those are great leads, ill take a look.

Imo "American Bullies" aren't a breed. A breed has a consistent look, style, appearance u can't tell me that some of these mutts people take to shows are consistent enough to be a breed. If the overall look was the same then maybe. Its funny u all tell me I ha e bullies but when I go to bully shows I get laughed at being told pits don't do well here lol. I just find it funny that soo many people seem to know what others have.

So if ya still have leads on a red male that u think is perfect I wouldn't mind taking a look. I don't care about location because if he's the total package of what I want ill get there.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

lol well I know alot of people will find problems with this kennel and there wording especially with the whole XXl and pitbull thing but I love these dogs { Im not a big red fan , but chocolate I LOVE} the dog they have named Gavin is probably my favorite.
RCK Pitbull Kennels,XXL Red Nose Pitbulls,Pitbull puppies,Red Nose Pitbull Kennels,Red Nose Pitbull Puppies,XXL Pitbulls,Red Pitbull Kennels,Pitbull Terriers


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

the reason i asked for the ped , alot of breeders will control thru contract what is bred with the dogs they produce. some breeders will not sell you a top quality apbt and allow you to breed it to bullies.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

There are some "bullish" looking APBT's out there, however American Bullies are not a style they are a breed. They have their own registry and for each "class" they have their own standards. If you take time to look at what went into the Bully and how it has evolved in the past 15 to 20 years you can see that its not a "style" of the APBT, it is in fact separate. While yes, there are many poorly bred mutts running around setting bad examples of Bullies however to say Bullies and APBT's are the same is just plan wrong.

A "Perfect" dog is going to vary completely person to person and what the individual considers "perfect". For some a simple "excellent family pet" is what they consider perfect, others its show dogs, game dogs, working dogs, etc etc.

What are you wanting this "red dog" to accomplish? What are YOU looking for in a "perfect" dog?

You calling AmBullies the same as (and just a "style") an APBT is not only disrespecting knowledgable and respectable breeders of the Bully side but you are also disrespecting dogmen of past and present and all the hard work that goes in keeping the APBT in true form. Your not respecting the history of the APBT and the Bully breeds by calling them the same.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

angelbaby said:


> whats a 45? record?


Hehehe...Yes. I only know that because my mom has a case full of vinyls. That I so, so want.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Lex's Guardian said:


> Hehehe...Yes. I only know that because my mom has a case full of vinyls. That I so, so want.


Thank you C! Am I really that old LOL? 45s were the two sided records that had a single song on each side, while the actual "album" was known as a 33 (LP). Back to cleaning my dentures.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

That's a matter of an opinion I guess I don't believe it or even see it that way. I don't have to sit and explain how I better the breed either. I breed for me first and foremost so I'm not too worried about what someone else thinks, unless I feel I can learn something. I know that I do things with respect honor and high moral fiber so others opinions are just that, not facts.

I know the history and where to find the knowledge as well. Bullies haven't been going 20+ yrs either, but possibly in ur opinion. Many that don't follow xl's don't really know what's what they just assume and start pointing a finger. I don't know it all but I do know a bit.

I also know that most people base the beginning of bullies off of Dave Wilson's creations (example he bulliesso if that's the case, ya I find and have little respect for most "bullies" Dave Wilson was kicked out of the UKC for hanging papers n whatever else. I don't find much respect, integrity, honor, in creating something based off of a lie. Sorry I was raised better than that. 

Is the ruffian bloodline to y'all bully?

In this day and age most bloodlines have been impacted one way or another with cross breeding whether u believe it or not. Even some of the game lines believe it or not. I'm not saying all or even trying to stress that point. Point is it takes more responsibility from breeders now to do what's right and not follow in the same footsteps as those before us that had lessor standards.

I've said it already but I guess some read over it. I'm new to the community but not dogs specifically apbt and American bulldogs. So I'm just curious to the undertone I'm catching like I'm some fool helping BSL out?


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## remymartin511 (May 17, 2011)

EckoMac said:


> FLAMETREE - FLAMETREE ,,,,, American PitbullTerrier
> 
> I believe the owner is also a member on here. As far as APBT goes, of all the pics I've seen his are the best looking reds. He also works and shows them as well as health tests I think.


Love those dogs! (sorry, no words of wisdom for the OP just had to sprinkle my opinions on Flametrees in there, lmao)


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Diesel Dogs said:


> Is the ruffian bloodline to y'all bully?


Ruffian is am AmStaff bloodline. So neither APBT or bully, but its own breed.

As for the American Bully, it is its own breed, or well on its way to becoming one. Given enough time, it will be as taboo to breed AmBully x APBT as it is to breed Labrador x Chesapeake. (ie, creating mutts, not necessarily creating BSL)


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Diesel Dogs said:


> That's a matter of an opinion I guess I don't believe it or even see it that way. I don't have to sit and explain how I better the breed either. I breed for me first and foremost so I'm not too worried about what someone else thinks, unless I feel I can learn something. I know that I do things with respect honor and high moral fiber so others opinions are just that, not facts.
> 
> I know the history and where to find the knowledge as well. Bullies haven't been going 20+ yrs either, but possibly in ur opinion. Many that don't follow xl's don't really know what's what they just assume and start pointing a finger. I don't know it all but I do know a bit.
> 
> ...


If you believe its an opinion go talk to a respectable dog man and see what kind of answer you get. I also recall saying 15 to 20 years not 20+ years. Obviously you have no desire to learn so carry on, i have no respect for BYB's that don't have a clue what theyre doing.


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

the thing is , bully isnt a bad word .. no use treating it that way. its just apples and oranges , i like both ... most here just have a problem calling one the other .


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

motocross308 said:


> the thing is , bully isnt a bad word .. no use treating it that way. its just apples and oranges , i like both ... most here just have a problem calling one the other .


Never said Bully was, my problem is someone who owns (let alone breeds) saying Bullies are the same as APBT's. Last time i checked Bullies were never in the [] and breed for a completely different purpose and appearance than the APBT. I have respect for Bully owners and breeders that know what they are breeding, know what they own.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> There are some "bullish" looking APBT's out there, however American Bullies are not a style they are a breed. They have their own registry and for each "class" they have their own standards. If you take time to look at what went into the Bully and how it has evolved in the past 15 to 20 years you can see that its not a "style" of the APBT, it is in fact separate. While yes, there are many poorly bred mutts running around setting bad examples of Bullies however to say Bullies and APBT's are the same is just plan wrong.
> 
> A "Perfect" dog is going to vary completely person to person and what the individual considers "perfect". For some a simple "excellent family pet" is what they consider perfect, others its show dogs, game dogs, working dogs, etc etc.
> 
> ...










Great freakin post!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Great freakin post!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Sadie said:


>










Word up homeslice!


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

Ill just come right out and say it .. if its too blunt , people have power to remove it .
no good breeder in thier right mind would sell you a good ofrn and allow you to breed it to a bully ... most would rather slam thier foot in the door over and over . Breeding takes planing and most of thier dogs are the result of generations of said planning . Breeding a game dog to a bully is like breeding a chainsaw to a vacuum cleaner .. wtf is the point .
even if blunt force trauma forced us to all think they are close to the same for a min ... why the heck would you breed something so spread out and without a direction ? 

i always liked what i saw from you as far as bully breeders once concerned ..you healt test and all .. thats 1000 times better then most bully breeders . but man , find a direction and go with it .

for the sake of education .. can someone post a tight ped and a scatterbred ped .. a wish i had the skills to put them side by side so they could be compaired ..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I think I am going to vomit now! Who is this guy? He want's to breed a bully to a freaking game dog? Dude you either want an APBT or a Bully this is why people are so confused because of piss poor breeder's like yourself wanting to cross a spoodle with a doodle. You want a working dog ? A game bred dog can do it all that's what they were freaking bred for. You want a bigger show bred dog get an Am staff or a Bully there is no in between here. No need to start messing with established breeds and bloodlines. I have no respect for people like yourself who think they can do it better than originator's so they start toying around with different breeds trying to create something bigger and better without a clue as to what they are doing. All the health testing in the world doesn't make what your trying to do right.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Here is a tight pedigree I don't have scatterbred dogs hahaha but here is my very tightly bred Jeep/Redboy bitch.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175576] :: AKA X FINALE


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

i honestly think he is an ok guy , and that he cares for his dogs .. just misinformed and lacking the clairity to understand and reflect on it .. 
its a sad fact of this huge bully craze


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

*Scatterbreeding.
By Scot E. Dowd Ph.D.*
Scatterbreeding within the APBT may or may not be a good thing but in most cases that we see, especially in regards to your typical back yard breeder, scatter bred dogs usually end up lacking in all but the most basic of breed type, they are typically genetically unpredictable in temperament and Conformation in relation to their sire and dam (The meaning of this: It is not that scatterbred individuals can not look very pretty and they may even fit the standard but ultimately because there is no consistency in their lineage there is also no consistency in their genetics).

What this means is that breeding a scatterbred dog is typically a BAD THING TO DO, especially in these times where there are thousands of pit bulls that end up in shelters and in rescues.

It is not that a scatterbred dog will be unstable of temperament but because we are lacking perspective based upon experience with the increasing diverse traits of the ancestors we do not likely know if the dogs Grandmother was viscious to humans or extremely timid. Thus, the scatterbred dog you own may be fine, but it is possible for it to throw timid or viscious dogs similar to the Grandmother. As a Reputable Breeder? you want to avoid this type of possibility. We do not want to propogate Fear Issues? or Aggression in our breed. For this reason we usually see scatterbred puppies from the same litter with wide variation in regards to Temperament, health, coloration, type and many other traits that are set and maintained by Linebreeding.)

Consider a new kennel that has a scatterbred female they are very proud of because it is their first "papered dog" and a good quality linebred female of medium Inbreeding Coefficient?. The very sad thing actually is that, these days, anyone that owns a pit bull, no matter the lineage, thinks they need to breed them. Anyways, the scatterbred owner, rather than outsourcing to a higher quality stud of the line of the female or outcrossing to a high quality stud of another set germ-line, they took the easy route and bred to the "in house" or "down the street" scatterbred male. We must wonder to what purpose this is done. Because we really know nothing about the scatterbred dam nor the equally scatterbred sire nor anything about the consistency of traits many generations behind them. Thus, we now know nothing genetically about the puppies. Breeding a linebred animal (see Linebreeding) to a scatterbred animal is not Outcrossing it is producing another generation of scatterbred puppies. However, if we bred the puppies from this litter back to the sire we would be on the road to developing a specific germline (in the long run) but in reality this should only be done if the scatterbred animal is of the utmost quality in all the traits we desire (or at least a majority) and certainly traits that are lacking in the stable germline. If this scatterbred animal is only mediocre quality then we will be developing a mediocre germline that must be improved in an uphill breeding effort.

I must say if I found a scatterbred dog that proved himself in every notable event (conformation, agility, Obedience, and weight pull) and passed all of his health tests (OFA hips, thyroid, and heart). I might consider breeding them. If I had a scatterbred dog that I was too lazy to get out there and prove I would be ashamed to breed them. I cant beleive so many individuals think their beloved pets must reproduce.

I hope that these descriptions of breeding techniques have provided some insight into in the principles used in manipulating genes within a breeding program.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

motocross308 said:


> i honestly think he is an ok guy , and that he cares for his dogs .. just misinformed and lacking the clairity to understand and reflect on it ..
> its a sad fact of this huge bully craze


Does this guy have a website?


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

i believe he said he was associated with these guys LIONSGATE


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Great posting Sadie. I never understood what scatterbred was. I knew it was breeding different lines but I never understood why people looked down on that.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Oh these are the guys who breed bullies and try and say they are APBT's? Because they can work? First of all your dog's are NOT apbt's! Those dog's are bullies I don't care if they can hang on a spring pole for 12 hours straight. They are bullies! All the camelot, dagger, stuff is all bully blood. There is no such thing as an XL APBT's. How can you be breeding and not know what your breeding?


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

now that i reread , he never specifically asked for a game dog , just a red .


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I just looked at every dog on the website and the ped's. Those are bullies some of them have staff blood mixed in them but so do all bullies!


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

One when u all speaking to me or about me have some respect! I'm not some punk kid and I've been at this longer than most of u I promise. I don't create waves were I go or down talk people and I'm about tired of it happening here. I've been nothing but polite. I know the history and peds and anything.g else informative u throw my way so some of u come down off ur high horses. As for telling g me what I have in my yard how bout u shut ur gaps and come see! Its an open invite. I'm in Benton harbor Michigan. Bring ur dogs cause ill gladly see who out works who for real. I'm proud of my dogs and what they're capable of and none of the stuff y'all say will change it. Ur childish words from some don't bother me in the least.

I don't believe in the difference of ast apbt or anything else u throw up. As far as me being a byb that's a joke but not funny at all. If u want to say something with meaning and a point my #'s out there and I'm more than happy to talk to anyone about the dogs.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

O lets get something straight real quick just because my opinion differs and I don't follow the sheeple doesn't mean I don't have direction or a vision. I find it funny that one would say that without ever speaking to me or even knowing what my breeding plans are or anything. Assumptions and ur own conclusions wont get u far.

Dagger blood bully that's funny considering bullies and bully shows are about the shortest dogs possible. And dagger dogs are about the tallest thing walking with any apbt blood in it at all. But yet I don't know much right.
U don't see me sitting here trying to force y'all into believing something, so what makes u think its ok to do it to me?

Besides dagger dogs were designed for onething, the track! Most dagger owners are heavy weight pullers.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Diesel Dogs said:


> O lets get something straight real quick just because my opinion differs and I don't follow the sheeple doesn't mean I don't have direction or a vision. I find it funny that one would say that without ever speaking to me or even knowing what my breeding plans are or anything. Assumptions and ur own conclusions wont get u far.
> 
> Dagger blood bully that's funny considering bullies and bully shows are about the shortest dogs possible. And dagger dogs are about the tallest thing walking with any apbt blood in it at all. But yet I don't know much right.
> U don't see me sitting here trying to force y'all into believing something, so what makes u think its ok to do it to me?
> ...


No, ABKC shows are not about the shortest dog possible. In case you haven't noticed there are several different classes according to height, one being the XL class, which includes females 19" and up and males 20" and up so it isn't about the shortest dog sweetheart.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Abkc also doesn't mfollow their own standards. Go to a show sweetheart and see. The abkc is a horrible registry imo. Last show I was @ the XL class was won by an 18" male so explain that one. Same shoe judge walks up to on dog in his initial rotation walks it out n declares it the winner. They will register any dog from another registry, it doesn't matter which one even CDC and others. I go to 5-10 shows a year if not more so I've seen a good amount of them to back up what I'm saying. However its my opinion and others don't have to agree with it.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

But back to topic please, best red male out is what I'm looking for. Thanks again.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Diesel Dogs said:


> Abkc also doesn't mfollow their own standards. Go to a show sweetheart and see. The abkc is a horrible registry imo. Last show I was @ the XL class was won by an 18" male so explain that one. Same shoe judge walks up to on dog in his initial rotation walks it out n declares it the winner. They will register any dog from another registry, it doesn't matter which one even CDC and others. I go to 5-10 shows a year if not more so I've seen a good amount of them to back up what I'm saying. However its my opinion and others don't have to agree with it.


I do go to shows sweetheart and I agree the ABKC needs to tighten up on their standards, but not every show is like that and not every judge is an idiot. I know a lot of good ABKC judges that follow the standard and know their stuff. I am assuming you saw the judge wicket the dog, which is how you know it was 18". I would have reported it to Ron Ramos if I had witnessed that. Can't expect anything to change if you aren't proactive about it.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Diesel Dogs said:


> I also know that most people base the beginning of bullies off of Dave Wilson's creations (example he bulliesso if that's the case, ya I find and have little respect for most "bullies" Dave Wilson was kicked out of the UKC for hanging papers n whatever else. I don't find much respect, integrity, honor, in creating something based off of a lie. Sorry I was raised better than that.


When was this?


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

Mach0 said:


> When was this?


they threatend it but i dont think they actually carried this out


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

motocross308 said:


> they threatend it but i dont think they actually carried this out


Ohhhh I was like whattttttt? Lol


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Diesel Dogs said:


> One when u all speaking to me or about me have some respect! I'm not some punk kid and I've been at this longer than most of u I promise. I don't create waves were I go or down talk people and I'm about tired of it happening here.
> .


you may want to follow your own advice up there over on your own forum.Talk about the pot calling the kettle black


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Diesel Dogs said:


> One when u all speaking to me or about me have some respect! I'm not some punk kid and I've been at this longer than most of u I promise. I don't create waves were I go or down talk people and I'm about tired of it happening here. I've been nothing but polite. I know the history and peds and anything.g else informative u throw my way so some of u come down off ur high horses. As for telling g me what I have in my yard how bout u shut ur gaps and come see! Its an open invite. I'm in Benton harbor Michigan. Bring ur dogs cause ill gladly see who out works who for real. I'm proud of my dogs and what they're capable of and none of the stuff y'all say will change it. Ur childish words from some don't bother me in the least.
> 
> I don't believe in the difference of ast apbt or anything else u throw up. As far as me being a byb that's a joke but not funny at all. If u want to say something with meaning and a point my #'s out there and I'm more than happy to talk to anyone about the dogs.





Diesel Dogs said:


> O lets get something straight real quick just because my opinion differs and I don't follow the sheeple doesn't mean I don't have direction or a vision. I find it funny that one would say that without ever speaking to me or even knowing what my breeding plans are or anything. Assumptions and ur own conclusions wont get u far.
> 
> Dagger blood bully that's funny considering bullies and bully shows are about the shortest dogs possible. And dagger dogs are about the tallest thing walking with any apbt blood in it at all. But yet I don't know much right.
> U don't see me sitting here trying to force y'all into believing something, so what makes u think its ok to do it to me?
> ...


If your so informed and educated why the hell are you breeding bullies calling them APBT's? That's funny you know so much yet your breeding bullies and call them a style of dog. Dagger, Camelot, Dangerzone, those bloodlines are bully lines. SOME of them do well on the WP tracks but that doesn't change the fact those are NOT apbt bloodlines. I looked at your website you don't own APBT's. I also find it amusing the starting topic of this thread help me find the *ultimate red on the planet* not mentioning anything about function or purpose just a red dog. That is a joke in itself coming from someone who is supposed to be serious about dog's. Yet you know so much ok school me tell me how the bullies your breeding are APBT's? Enlighten me please?


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Sorry I already have him....Well I guess he's more chocolate red then red...

O,and he's fixed. Sorry :/


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

FYI I wouldn't waste a second of my time coming to your yard. Because your not running anything I would ever look twice at. I own working bred dog's. My dog's are bred for real work. I don't have designer knock off dogs. So there is nothing you have on your yard that I would ever consider worth feeding. It's insulting to working dog owner's and to Bully owner's for folks like yourself to breed dog's and not even Acknowledge what they are. You talk about Dave Wilson lying and cheating. What the hell do you call yourself doing breeding monster dog's and calling them APBT's? Your no better than the rest of them. At least Dave has come fourth acknowledged his dirt and is moving and promoting those dog's in the right direction which is more than I can say for you!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Diesel I honestly dont care if your offended or not, people like you are not only ruining these breeds but also spreading your BS around and unfortunately im sure people listen to it. I'd never walk into your "yard", you could offer me a $100 and a free pup i still wouldn't come. :rofl:

Its unfortunate your not willing to learn and stop breeding your money makers. Youve been doing it longer than most of us?? That has got to be the funniest thing i have ever heard. No matter how long you have been doing it its obvious you didnt learn crap except BYB "knowledge".


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Let's look at these ped's shall we?

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [334515] :: LIONSGATE SEMINOLE'S THE PRODIGAL SON

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [371142] :: LIONSGATE TOMAHAWK THE BEAST

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [281927] :: IRON CROSS IRON LION OF LGK

Those are some of the dog's on your site... Now look at my dog's ped's

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [328954] :: A'S BOGART

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=175576

Now you explain to me how your dog's are APBT's when I just showed you my two dog's ped's who are without a doubt by pedigree APBT's.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

and he's got ICK in there........:rofl::hammer: and he wanted to try and talk about Dave Wilson hanging papers


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I am telling you I guess people don't think we can find their dog's ped's online. Don't make me go pull up every ped on every single dog on your website to prove a point because I will.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

KMdogs said:


> Diesel I honestly dont care if your offended or not, people like you are not only ruining these breeds but also spreading your BS around and unfortunately im sure people listen to it. I'd never walk into your "yard", you could offer me a $100 and a free pup i still wouldn't come. :rofl:
> 
> Its unfortunate your not willing to learn and stop breeding your money makers. *Youve been doing it longer than most of us?? *That has got to be the funniest thing i have ever heard. No matter how long you have been doing it its obvious you didnt learn crap except BYB "knowledge".


Yeah the only thing he's been doing longer than all of us is hanging ped's , lying about what he breeds and passing those bullies off as APBT's. You got me there bro because I have never done that. :clap:


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

ICK.... hahaha This answers everything.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

http://www.gopitbull.com/goldmine/28466-iron-cross-kennels-banned-ukc.html


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

My dogs hunt, fish, swim, climb trees, weight pull, compete in shows, chase 4 wheelers n snowmobiles and anything else I deem necessary for exercise. So don't act like u have working dogs and I don't. Ill put Monet on it if u like. I'm that confident in what I have. The rest of it is ur opinion and ur entitled to that completely. 
Thing is I don't have to sit here and try to degrade u as an individual to make my point. Ur hostility isn't what dog communities need honestly. Because hot heads generally chase people away that really need the education. If u were really about the dogs U'd have a better tone and willing to listen but ur too closed minded to thinking there is only one way to skin a cat. 

What can any of u tell me about the Tudor blood? Thanks


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I have a feeling we've heard the last from Diesel.. If by some chance hes brave enough to continue, at least its safe to say no one here is going to listen and agree with him. lol Maybe he will change his ways but i doubt it. Hardly any of them ever do.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Diesel Dogs said:


> My dogs hunt, fish, swim, climb trees, weight pull, compete in shows, chase 4 wheelers n snowmobiles and anything else I deem necessary for exercise. So don't act like u have working dogs and I don't. Ill put Monet on it if u like. I'm that confident in what I have. The rest of it is ur opinion and ur entitled to that completely.
> Thing is I don't have to sit here and try to degrade u as an individual to make my point. Ur hostility isn't what dog communities need honestly. Because hot heads generally chase people away that really need the education. If u were really about the dogs U'd have a better tone and willing to listen but ur too closed minded to thinking there is only one way to skin a cat.
> 
> What can any of u tell me about the Tudor blood? Thanks


Dude do you even know what working dogs are? Almost everything you listed is exercise not work. Hunting yes, weight pulling is kind of a grey line since some consider it work some dont. Showing? Did you really just put showing under the same grouping as work? LMFAO
Your BS isn't what the breed needs, both of them so don't come here saying the hostility isn't what the dog communities need. You have got to be the most ignorant person i've talked in a good while, probably this year.

You don't want to be educated you believe what your doing is right no matter how much evidence and knowledge we throw down.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Diesel Dogs said:


> My dogs hunt, fish, swim, climb trees, weight pull, compete in shows, chase 4 wheelers n snowmobiles and anything else I deem necessary for exercise. So don't act like u have working dogs and I don't. Ill put Monet on it if u like. I'm that confident in what I have. The rest of it is ur opinion and ur entitled to that completely.
> Thing is I don't have to sit here and try to degrade u as an individual to make my point. Ur hostility isn't what dog communities need honestly. Because hot heads generally chase people away that really need the education. If u were really about the dogs U'd have a better tone and willing to listen but ur too closed minded to thinking there is only one way to skin a cat.
> 
> What can any of u tell me about the Tudor blood? Thanks


LMFAO!!! Buddy I have game bred dog's those things your dog's do are normal things ANY dog can do. You put your dog's in the box and see how they fair up against dog's bred like mine. That is what it all comes down to. My dog's were bred for gameness your dog's were bred for looks. There is HUGE difference. It wouldn't even be a fair competition to put those dog's up against dog's like mine LOL.

If you were really about the dog's you would stop lying and cheating people you would acknowledge what you own and breed. Your a fraudster your disrespecting my dog's and the dog men behind the APBT by breeding those dog's and calling them APBT's. Respect is earned not given. And I can't respect not one thing your doing at this point and time. You want respect from this community start breeding and calling those dog's what they are. Stop contributing to the fraud in the dog world and lying to your customers making them think they are getting an APBT when they are NOT! Start respecting yourself as a breeder and both breeds by calling your dog's what they are and be proud of them.Then come back here and we can talk. Until then your a joke to me.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> LMFAO!!! Buddy I have game bred dog's those things your dog's do are normal things ANY dog can do. You put your dog's in the box and see how they fair up against dog's bred like mine. That is what it all comes down to. My dog's were bred for gameness your dog's were bred for looks. There is HUGE difference. It wouldn't even be a fair competition to put those dog's up against dog's like mine LOL.
> 
> If you were really about the dog's you would stop lying and cheating people you would acknowledge what you own and breed. Your a fraudster your disrespecting my dog's and the dog men behind the APBT by breeding those dog's and calling them APBT's. Respect is earned not given. And I can't respect not one thing your doing at this point and time. You want respect from this community start breeding and calling those dog's what they are. Stop contributing to the fraud in the dog world and lying to your customers making them think they are getting an APBT when they are NOT! Then come back here and we can talk. Until then your a joke to me.


:clap::goodpost:


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Haha y'all are funny and now u talk about fighting dogs. U say none of those things are work but maybe, talk about contradiction dang. My dogs can do anything y'alls can and it hovers u for some reason idk why but it shouldnt


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Diesel Dogs said:


> Haha y'all are funny and now u talk about fighting dogs. U say none of those things are work but maybe, talk about contradiction dang. My dogs can do anything y'alls can and it hovers u for some reason idk why but it shouldnt


LMFAO. Im not even going to get into this "my dog your dog" crap. Your pathetic, a disgrace to the dog world and a complete and utter naive individual who knows absolutely nothing. I hope you stop breeding even though i know you wont.
I cant speak for everyone but i see right through your garbage and i've met and seen enough people over the years to know exactly what your producing. They may be decent show quality, some MAY even have a little bit of drive but in no way, shape or form are they 1. APBT's 2. Game Dogs or 3. Working dogs.

I'm done with this, your obviously too caught up in making that $$$. If your ever in my area ill show you what a working dog is.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

That's were u are wrong, I don't lie to anyone. I like XL dog n that's what I say I have, I know what's in my ped potentially and where. I can't do anything about that, I know where it lies and I tell people that. Don't sit here and act like u know my customers and how I treat them.
U all can be message board thugs all u want I'm not here to fight with childish people.

I'm a Catholic Christian man that was raised with morals and manors and I don't take kibble fly to u calling me a liar or thief or any of that crap. I haven't said onething negatively to anyone here n I first d it pathetic that some of u are keeping it up. But I have to say thank u, u have made this thread so popular that I've received way more emails than I ever expected. Thank u to those that have shown support and even those that disagree but did it in a professional and respectful manor.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Diesel Dogs said:


> Haha y'all are funny and now u talk about fighting dogs. U say none of those things are work but maybe, talk about contradiction dang. My dogs can do anything y'alls can and it hovers u for some reason idk why but it shouldnt


lol that song "Anything you can do I can do better I can do anything better than you" is playing in my head..... geeeez......


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Um thanks for ur opinion bro. But anyone really breeding for the dogs isn't make much money, if u are explain it please. Because after health testing, DNA, various vaccinations, registrations, food, training, up take of their living areas and show travel there isn't much imo to go around. I don't know why u think I'm pocketing crazy money, I actually love my dogs regardless if y'all do and I put alot into them. I don't get upset when y'all speak negatively about them because the only thing they care about is my love and attention. I just think its childish to call me names and tell me how I am hen no one has even spoke to me, shook my hand or looked me in the eyes. Instead u beat a keyboard like an internet gangster


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

What do you think the APBT was bred for? Fishing??? WP??? Come on Diesel. The APBT was bred to go to town in a 4 by 4 box with another dog. Your dog's couldn't last a minute against dog's bred like mine. This is just real talk. Your dog's are not bred for gameness they are not bred for blood sport. Poodle's can pull weight I am not saying your dog's are crap not my cup of tea but they are nice dog's for what they are. But they are no where near working bred dog's. They may have working capabilities but they were bred for looks first and foremost. If you had to put your dog's in a box pre 76 they would jump the box and cur in a matter of seconds. Because they are NOT bred for the same purpose my dog's were bred for. That's like me trying to compete with my dog in Shutzhund against a German Shepherd mind you these dog's were bred for protection work. Let's get real here.


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## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

OMG *bangs head on desk* really dude you are not even trying to educate yourself, you came here looking for a dog to breed to your XL bitch, you need to find a XL male BULLY not an APBT cause YES they are TWO very different breeds. And have you done any research into how many dogs are in shelters now how many pits, pit mixes, bullies, staffies, I mean come on and you just wanna house dog that can do exercise to breed with a nice red male, you are a BYB and a disgrace to own a game dog. I have read this whole thread and truely think it should be shut down cause it is going nowhere as YOU are not willing to learn and want to keep spouting BS from your finger tips.
None of us here want what you are peddling or trying to NOT find out. If you REALLY wanna learn spay yourbitch quite breeding and LEARN some things. I have been into APBT's my whole life, but more so showing, wp and other things, agility being one that I do with my dogs. Also hog hunting is on my list with me new pup. But just because I've been into this breed for well over 20 years, I still learn something NEW everyday. You have too.

Mmkay I'm done hugs to all


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Diesel Dogs said:


> That's were u are wrong, I don't lie to anyone. I like XL dog n that's what I say I have, I know what's in my ped potentially and where. I can't do anything about that, I know where it lies and I tell people that. Don't sit here and act like u know my customers and how I treat them.
> U all can be message board thugs all u want I'm not here to fight with childish people.
> 
> *I'm a Catholic Christian man that was raised with morals and manors* and I don't take kibble fly to u calling me a liar or thief or any of that crap. I haven't said onething negatively to anyone here n I first d it pathetic that some of u are keeping it up. But I have to say thank u, u have made this thread so popular that I've received way more emails than I ever expected. Thank u to those that have shown support and even those that disagree but did it in a professional and respectful manor.


People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! You talk about Dave Wilson you need to look at yourself and your kennel. It's based off the same lies that Dave Wilson started. Only he choose to come clean and turn a new leaf. You should follow in his footsteps instead of living in denial about your dog's and what's behind them. XL is not even a standard for the APBT go to the ADBA and the UKC and read the standards. You also own dog's off a kennel who was BANNED from the UKC! For lying and papers hanging.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! You talk about Dave Wilson you need to look at yourself and your kennel. It's based off the same lies that Dave Wilson started. Only he choose to come clean and turn a new leaf. You should follow in his footsteps instead of living in denial about your dog's and what's behind them. XL is not even a standard for the APBT go to the ADBA and the UKC and read the standards. You also own dog's off a kennel who was BANNED from the UKC! For lying and papers hanging.


And what does religion have to do with ANYTHING!??! There are Catholic pedo's, Christian drug deals, Muslim extremist, etc etc. Religion has ZERO to do with anything on this thread or really, this forum.. unless theres a thread about it.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

No it was created to chase rats in a whole, then bull n bear bating. Then man got bored and started fighting them. U must just choose to follow the fighting which is ur choice not mine. I've seen more than enough with my own eyes. I can respect the old timers to a point, but the dogs r my friends and I can't personally see one of my dogs go thru it. Trust me I hold physical scars from mistakes, I don't know it all but I know enough. I promise u I'm not like the rest of the bully breeders. Whether u believe it or not.
I listed their activities not just working. Yes I said fishing because my dogs catch their meals when we camp. Almost got 2 giant Tom's the other night.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

U assume I lie because ur negative. That's ur short comings not mine. My religion has to do with how I was raised not just beliefs so it has plenty to do with me. 

What does Weston or Roman have to do with me, I just left the UKC n they love my dogs haha. Keep hating cause y'all r the only ones getting pissed.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

I pointed out facts about Dave nothing more so that's not throwing stones, I don't lie regardless of what one of u type. For a place that isn't supposed to attack people ur sure goin pretty hard, thanks


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## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

No we are not pissed we are just tired of ppl like you who come here lookin to peddle pups or find that awesome stud or bitch to go with their dog or kennel. Seriously spay your bitch and don't breed. You obviously don't care about the breed anywayz or you would WANT to learn like I said. It's ok you can ignore me if ya want, I don't care. I'm as game as my dogs. Like I said and Sadie is right, you choose to keep doing what you KNOW is wrong and at least Dave WIlson admitted what he was doing WAS wrong. Ughhhhh. again this should be closed due to bashing my head on the desk and this is beating a dead horse. Wheres that darn smiley, lmaoooo


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Diesel Dogs said:


> I promise u I'm not like the rest of the bully breeders. Whether u believe it or not.


The rest of bully breeders? there are great bully breeders out there just as there are some really crappy ones as well { like almost every breed } So lumping all the bully people together is real ignorant on your part. You own bullys yet you put them down and the people involved with them , your on your own here. What you are breeding with bullys and APBT's you wont have something that will conform to any standard how is that representing the breed well? Im really tired of seeing breeders breed like you and add to the inconsistency of the breed and thats what hurts the bully community , people think there isnt a standard to our dogs but there is , the problem is people like you who dont breed towards it. I think you need to do some thinking if you dont want a dog with the bully appearance then maybe you are in the wrong breed, if you like APBT go APBT if you want a bigger dog maybe look at the dogos or the presas ect. if you want a great buly kennel let us know there are many { may not have red dogs and may not even sell you a dog though knowing the lines you carry on your yard , kinda a disgrace to the bully community}


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Were did I ask to sell puppies lmao u all should stop step back and breath. I came here to find a nice working red male from some educated people. MESSAGE BOARDS DONT SELL PUPPIES are u all serious. I'm 34 and been doin this since day one, my family has always bred dogs. So feel free to share ur knowledge its up to me to listen


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Diesel Dogs said:


> No it was created to chase rats in a whole, then bull n bear bating. Then man got bored and started fighting them. U must just choose to follow the fighting which is ur choice not mine. I've seen more than enough with my own eyes. I can respect the old timers to a point, but the dogs r my friends and I can't personally see one of my dogs go thru it. Trust me I hold physical scars from mistakes, I don't know it all but I know enough. I promise u I'm not like the rest of the bully breeders. Whether u believe it or not.
> I listed their activities not just working. Yes I said fishing because my dogs catch their meals when we camp. Almost got 2 giant Tom's the other night.


No buddy these dog's were bred for one thing gameness hundreds of years of blood sport that's what is behind these dogs. The reason why these dog's are so human friendly even with their history is because dog men selectively bred them that way. They had to be able to lay hands on those dog's in and out of the box so culling Human Aggression was a must. This is not about you fighting your dogs. This is about you acknowledging what you own. I would have more respect for you if you acknowledged the dog's your breeding are NOT APBT's because they are not. APBT's come from working bloodlines they are bred from game dog's. They are not bred from show dog's. Your dog's are bullies. If you want to help the American Bully community grow and prosper and for your dog's to be respected by all you need to start representing them for what they are. By continuing to contribute to the problem your not making things better for either breed. Your dog's are great examples of what an American Bully should be I give you that much. You health test, the dog's look sound in structure. Your kennel could be a great example for the young bully breeder's coming up in the game. But without you doing right by the breed your continuing the fraud that surrounds the American Bully. And there are plenty of dedicated bully breeder's out there trying to turn that around. You don't own APBT's you are breeding American Bullies and once you accept that FACT more people in the dog world will respect you and your kennel.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Some of u think way to highly of urselfs to tell me I'm a disgrace of anything. Ive done nothing but ask one question and u all spun this into something else not me.


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## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

Yeah and the question you asked was for a male to breed your bitch too. And I am just a lowly person here but as I said I learn something NEW every day and you should too. You should take a step back and realize that WE love this breed for what it is and not take things out of context. As I said I read this WHOLE thread before I posted and it just seems you are here to breed n not learn, and no matter your age or the years you been into them you should still WANT to learn about the breed (s) and you are not willing to do so. What you have are Bullies, nothing wrong with that so go to a Bully forum and ask them these questions, but here we want to educate ppl who WANT to learn. *bashes head on keyboard again* I have a headache just talking or typing this. Can't stand it when ppl think they are better than others cause they been doing something so long and talk to any dogman from now or the past and they would laugh at you and tell you to go take your Bully and go somewhere else. I personally do NOT have a problem with bullies but CALL them what they are, BULLIES not APBT's.


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## Diesel Dogs (Apr 11, 2011)

Thats just it I don't defraud anyone, never have never will. I'm sorry u all don't think my dogs have it but I like drive, I like my dogs to get turkeys, hogs, deer, coyotes and other physical activities that's we try. Many of my friends are bully breeders and my dogs next to theirs are way different. I thinking that's part of the problem here as some of u aren't as educated as u want to believe in the others styles. Because its not what u like or whatever. U all can dislike me or down talk me as much as u like but I'm going to stand by my convictions and do what works for me. I'm more than willing to learn but I'm not goin to just be bad mouthed.

Yes dogs were bred to fight n ha toned down but that was after the rats and animals not before


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Just saw the rat in hole thing..*Rat* Terrier? Yorkie? Cats? Ferrets? lol
As everyone said they were breed with one goal in mind.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Diesel Dogs said:


> Some of u think way to highly of urselfs to tell me I'm a disgrace of anything. Ive done nothing but ask one question and u all spun this into something else not me.


I am highly intelligent and educated on both breeds. I consider myself to be an enthusiast and a responsible dog owner. I believe in truthful education not false teachings. The facts are out there. My mentor is a former dog man he has lived longer than the both of us put together his mentor was Bert Clouse. That should give you an idea about what time he grew up in. He didn't just read books he experienced these dog's for their intended sole purpose. He raised and bred dog's with honor and dignity. There are several educated member's on this forum who could educate you but in order for that to happen you have to be willing to listen. You have to put aside everything you THINK you know. Your ego is preventing you from accepting the truth about your dog's.


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## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

But you can call us names, wow total contradiction dude. And you got peds on that nice bitch you keep talkin bout on any of your dogs for that fact. Lets see some pics. Not that you can tell dogs by pics, they never do them justice but humor us please. And I know this breed and it seem syou aren't as well educated as you would like to think either. Like I said IF you are willing to learn then stick around and ask the right questions. I will stand by what I said, you should not be breeding bullies and callin the APBT's cause that is NOT what they are. And I will readily admit to not being as saavy on Bullies and Am Staffs or Pitterstaffs as some of these others, but I am learning, haha I'm old takes my brain forever to process something seems like. Just quite with the holier than thou attitude, none of us here want to see you leave but you can't come here and ask about a stud or whatever and not expect us who fight BSL everyday to take it lightly.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

motocross308 said:


> i believe he said he was associated with these guys LIONSGATE





Diesel Dogs said:


> My dogs hunt, fish, swim, climb trees, weight pull, compete in shows, chase 4 wheelers n snowmobiles and anything else I deem necessary for exercise. So don't act like u have working dogs and I don't. Ill put Monet on it if u like. I'm that confident in what I have. The rest of it is ur opinion and ur entitled to that completely.
> Thing is I don't have to sit here and try to degrade u as an individual to make my point. Ur hostility isn't what dog communities need honestly. Because hot heads generally chase people away that really need the education. If u were really about the dogs U'd have a better tone and willing to listen but ur too closed minded to thinking there is only one way to skin a cat.
> 
> What can any of u tell me about the Tudor blood? Thanks


A shout out to LGK they have some great dogs and I have been talking to some of the breeders about getting a dog from there. They have a nice breeding program whether you agree or not with what they are breeding they are far from BYB's. Before everyone jumps on the BYB's wagon know who and what your talking about. This thread went way off topic and now is down right insulting on both sides. I am closing this and let this be a warning to all if I see people attacking other members again on the forum I will break out the ban stick this goes for both sides.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Diesel Dogs said:


> One when u all speaking to me or about me have some respect! I'm not some punk kid and I've been at this longer than most of u I promise. I don't create waves were I go or down talk people and I'm about tired of it happening here. I've been nothing but polite. I know the history and peds and anything.g else informative u throw my way so some of u come down off ur high horses. As for telling g me what I have in my yard how bout u shut ur gaps and come see! Its an open invite. I'm in Benton harbor Michigan. Bring ur dogs cause ill gladly see who out works who for real. I'm proud of my dogs and what they're capable of and none of the stuff y'all say will change it. Ur childish words from some don't bother me in the least.
> 
> I don't believe in the difference of ast apbt or anything else u throw up. As far as me being a byb that's a joke but not funny at all. If u want to say something with meaning and a point my #'s out there and I'm more than happy to talk to anyone about the dogs.


Okay .. Well Mr. Respect I take it you know better than the men who created the breed. YOU asked questions and got some flack and that can be expected as opinions vary. Your in a state not popular by any other strain but the one you cant get in state..

I've read this entire thread after avoiding it for so long and you have asked a simple enough answered question considering you asked in the most "ghetto" manner possible. I lived in the hood and when seeking education from the hood to country; the last thing you do is preach respect and throw insults then say you dont cause waves as this entire discussion has went to 

You were pointed in the direction of GREAT the BEST APBT of OFRN strains... People notice your not breeding dogs known in and out as being anything but an APBT; thus the slang terms BULLY and WHOPPER .. cause we all know... SO you want a BEAST of a dog thats registered as APBT? Camelot and Castillo(anchorchainkennels).

The best way to learn is to listen; swallow your rocks when your wrong and accept that you can always do better, you can not ever know it all... Theres always room for foot in mouth ...

The only thing you said that had some validity and your still confused..


> I don't believe in the difference of ast apbt or anything else u throw up. As far as me being a byb that's a joke but not funny at all. If u want to say something with meaning and a point my #'s out there and I'm more than happy to talk to anyone about the dogs


But it takes the game dogs to make the bloodline sound; these dogs origin is in the box.. go back to england and the orginal bulldog was thrown into the pit and forever dubbed PIT bull... the FIRST REGISTERED terrier came from inbreeding PIT bulldogs in the 1800s the result looked damm near like Sadies avatar almost to the T. The Staffordshire from England was the orignal bulldog aka pit bulldog and renamed by King George II and III to rearrange peoples thinking and boost national pride for their pit bulldog and chinese pug mix.. .. those fighting staffies came over and evovled into the American Pit Bull Terrier after the men who created the breed agreed that no dog could be registered until after 2 wins.. That ALONE says everything about the origins and what it takes to purify and keep the dogs blood sound and sure workers in all conditions.. Your dogs have no ancestors whos breaking points have been weighed and measured which means no one knows what point they may misdirect or cull out leaving you vulnerable to a boar bear or a bear hog.. LOL I love the lingo cross.. LOL anyway.. you have been told straight up where to find what you want and what you have. It was told to me by the former owner of the ADBA like this.. "Either your breeding APBTs or your not.." .. ..

Do you have the books by.... ?
Richard F. Stratton
John P. Colby
gather the books cause then you wouldnt need to feel the need to be so defensive... ususally when we get that way well its cause we know but we have love and investment and hope.. humans emotions doesnt change the DNA of an animal or what it takes to create that animal.

whatta a bunch of crap..:flush: .. had a good topic going good page 1


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Stan I closed the thread, lol


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Stan I closed the thread, lol


:hammer: I just realized that.. I just should type shorter posts.. LOL :hammer:


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