# What would you get? (color discusion)



## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

So in a quest to broaden my knowledge a bit, and i prolly got this wrong, so please correct it if i did, just wanted to see what the opinion would be...
so, in terms of color results...if you have parents with the following, what offspring would they produce?

As-ddE X Aydde-spsp

OR

Aydde-spsp X Ay-B-ddEbr

and dose anyone know the code for Chocolate? been looking for it and can't find it. this is just for fun convo...just wanna see what everyone can come up with!!!
please specify witch you are guessing!



my guess is Champagne, fawn and chocolate...from what i've read...but I'm soooo soooo new at this...I'm about to start school to be a vet tech and all this is in my reading...I'm doing a little reading to start studying and just gain a lil knowledge on the stuff...it's all confusing if u ask me!


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

I'm not sure on the first what you are specifying with As. This was once referred to as dominant black which research has shown to be on the k series. So I will need clarification. 

Chocolate is K bb as it is black dog who is homozygous for liver, which causes what would be black to instead be chocolate, red, liver. On a black dog it causes the chocolate coat and red nose and eye rims, inner mouth pigment, ect

For the 2nd mating I got that the parents are 

Blue fawn with heavy white markings 
And
Blue brindle (I'm assuming ebr is brindle as newer studies have shown this to actually be kbr. Also that the dog is E as required for the brindle to visually show, if the dog has a mask it is Em must be one or the other. Otherwise the dog wouldn't appear brindle)

The pups would essentially be either blue fawn or blue brindle. As for white markings the 2nd parents' genotype wasn't listed.
None would be chocolate because neither of the patents are black nor do they carry liver I assume as it wasn't listed (dog 2 is BB yes? And not simply B) both patents must give one copy of liver.
Like wise they are unable to produce champagne as it requires both liver and blue dilution offspring must be bbdd which means each parent must have liver.
All fawns would be blue fawns as both parents are blue nose.
I'm no expert but that is my best conclusion.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

ok...i knew that there would be some issue. I got my types from an article i was reading from ADBA... so yes the second is blue brindle. they went into this whole conversation on Chocolate but never gave the type for it. then they were saying something about choc comes from blue, and i dont get that, so i was trying to see what i could come up with. 

The second parent was supposed to be like a liver or choc color with a red nose, couldnt find the type for that ither, so i did the best i could...sorry!!!
However, I think i learned more from your post than all the reading i've done this far. 
I was just looking at some of the types and wondered what you would get. breedings get so boreing now a days...always blue with blue, and that, alot of times is all you see anymore, not that blues aren't pretty, i own 2, but they occured naturaly, not planned, one if my females has a champange mom and a red (with red nose) dad. the other has 2 black and white parents....so I am wondering why people dont put some spunk back into it, lol instead of these breedings that you already know what the puppies will look like before they get here. I also wanted to ad that a parent (either one) be heavily pie bald as well. like...one large cow spot, and the rest white...I just wonder about the unique markings and such...i know also that more goes into a breeding than just color genetics, but i'm sure you could still find 2 champ dogs with all the qualities that dont look just alike!!!! 
sorry for the confusion on the types, i did the best i could, i'm an admitted armature, lol


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Let me see if I got it right. 

The first dog is chocolate 
Ay Ay bb DD Kk w/ at least 1 S

The 2nd is Ay Ay BB dd Kk spsp

Some of the genetic info is missing or unknown, if more is known then the better pup color can be predicted. If you know the rest or have the parents info that helps.

I'm assuming both parents carry non black. 

I will take a stab at it and say you'd get pups that are

Black 
Red
Buckskin 
With little white to various white markings 
All would be carriers for liver and blue


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

As far as breeding goes color is rather unimportant. A lot of litters consistently produce the same colors because of linebreeding. Most lonesome will tend to produce a type overtime, whilr color may not ne important it is one of the things that goes along with that.

Those who keep doing the blue to blue breedings are breeding for color. I don't agree with that.

It can be very interesting to see what one will get when you have various genes so I know where you are coming from.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

good thanks...i was way off on that...but you got the colors right. I know that alot goes into a breeding rather than color, all i am saying is i think it's sad that anymore our breed is defined by blue dogs, thats all you see. This forum is the first i have seen with brown and black and blue owned dogs. i just wondered what you would get if you mixed it up, you never see a kennel take 2 different dogs and match them, they always look alike!!! thanks for understanding my point!


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

I really saw a huge explosion of blue dogs but mostly with the bully people. I do believe that most of the younger people and the general public think that is what a Pit Bull really is.

Overall though I don't see the issue, but I've shown in ADBA mainly so I've seen very little blue dogs, they are the minority. There are many kennels which breeds dogs that don't look alike, I've really ever done a couple breedings with similar colored parents. Though I don't have blues so that probably makes all the difference lol. Most do blue to blue because they are guaranteed blues which is their selling point, the market is flooded with them now though. It is sad indeed.

The dog in my avatar is brindle and white with a black mask.
His sire is white with a black patch 
Paternal grandsire fawn and white red nose
Paternal grand dam white with blue patch 

His dam is red (brindle though not recognized as such) with flashy white marks and red nose.
Maternal grandsire seal and white
Maternal grand dam red brindle and white red nose


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

You can download a phenotype predictor here.Dog Colour Genetics Primer & FREE Canine Genetics Software


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

the fact that the market is flooded with them, thats the part that gets me, I've spoken to people who dont know apbt come in other colors, lol
and your right to about the fact that alot of folks think that bully is pit, and it's not. There are also those that think that real apbt are "game dogs" or they are the ones who fight...these are all reasons why the breed is in the trouble they are in...IGNORANCE...but I'll get off my soap box...i just would like to see some variety in it again. I dont care if my dog is purple...lol. Color is not my point personality comes first...then I'm more of a markings type gal. I like the ones that are unique and dont look like other peoples. Color matters not. 

Genetics are odd...Like i said I have two naturally occurring blues, not bred to be, with other colors in the litter...I have a blue brindle that neither of her parents are blue, or brindle, she was the only brindle in the litter and one of 2 blues in a litter of 11, the rest were choc, blue fawn, black and brown. The other blue, was in a litter of 9 that were all black and white except for 3. I like litters like that, where you have a choice and it's not just 2 blue/black/brown..etc parents with exact replica offspring. Its nice to know the show ring isnt over ran with them tho, gives me hope that this whole bred for color thing is a phase that will pass...dogs should not be bred or sold for color quality only. Did you marry just cuz she was a blonde? lol (just an example) b/c to be honest , when you get an animal period, you are choosing a life long companion every thing should fit, not just that it's the right color.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

I with a lot it is a fad and they won't br here too long because so many are fly by night breeders that are here today trying to make money and will be gone tomorrow. On the other hand I think blue dogs are here to stay because there will always be people breeding them since the popularity got so big many were added to the gene pool. 

Genetics for color can be more predictable once you better understand them. Of course sometimes there are surprises as breeders don't always know what every dog is carrying. Researching the pedigree is very helpful to know what genes they do carry for sure or are likely to carry.
The dilution gene is recessive and effects black color so black dogs with blue dogs back in the pedigree have a good chance of producing blue pups.

In order to get a brindle at least one parent must be brindle. There are a number of reasons why a brindle dog might not visually appear brindle. The same is true of black, they must have a black parent. 

Like the male in my avatar, his dam is registered a red rednose and anyone who sees her would say the same. She doesn't appear brindle but she is. There was a time or two I saw a bit of brindle on her rear legs, very faint when she was around 2-3 months old. It would have been easy to miss.

Black and brindle are both dominant over the A series and therefore will show with a few exceptions.

On the K series we have
K black - if the dog inherits one K they will be black*
Kbr brindle - if dog inherits one kbr they will be brindle**
k (or sometimes referee to as ky) - Allows what is on the A series to express, some call thus non black as K is black and kbr is brindle which is a pattern of black stripes over a red base coat. It expresses over the A series.

*Reasons why a genetically black dog won't appear black.
Blue K dd genetically black that has been diluted if bred to a dog non dilute/non black can have black pups
Chocolate K bb black appears liver, if bred to a non chocolate/non black can still produce black
A dog which is black but ee (which restricts the appearance of black hair) will appear fawn/red (ee has been termed recessive red) and can produce black when bred. So they must have at least one E (allows expression of black coat) or Em (this is the same as E but has a black mask, on a black dog we can't see it but on red, buckskin, ect we can of course).

**Reasons why a genetically brindle dog won't appear brindle
K/kbr this dog is brindle but also black, black is dominant over brindle and of course if the dog has a black coat you won't be able to see black stripes. A brindle dog must be kbr/kbr or kbr/k for the brindle and yellow to express.
Such a dog that is K/kbr bb will appear chocolate and K/kbr dd will appear blue for the same reason stated above. 
K/kbr or kbr/kbr will be brindle but if the brindle stripping is very heavy the dog might appear to be a black dog ("black boxers" are a good example of this). Likewise they may appear to be a red (red nose) ay ay bb k kbr for example or blue ay ay dd k kbr if the same holds true of the stripes.
Just as with black dogs, brindle dogs which are ee will appear to be fawn or red because of the restriction which doesn't allow black to express the stripes won't be visible. They must have one E or Em (like the male in my avatar).

Color can be tricky but once you have a better understanding of how genes interact with eachother it can be an even bigger help. You might still get.a surprise now and then. As well knowing what can be produced doesn't always tell you what will be exactly (you could do a repeat and get some differences). 

I agree that color shouldnt be a factor for breeding. Though again certain lines tend not to have a wide color selection because of the linebreeding. Though the breeder didn't breed for color that trait was set. There isn't anything wrong with that and a big difference in what color they happened to end up being and those.who seek to breed x color to x color.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

wow---

that was alot to take in...so you dont have to have two brindle parents to have brindle pups? dose the other parent have to carry that gene to be beindle? or just one parent?


so...just for the sake of asking... (all my dogs are fixed except my male, who will be going soon) he is brown and white..(probily classed as pie bald, as he has one cow patch that is a choc and brown color) then i have a reverse blue brindle female...he has no brindle in his line, but it's all over hers...his blood is gator/bolieo and hers is tnt
/watchdog/razors edge dose not have brindle parents... how would that come out? he is a red nose, she is a blue...i thought both parents had to carry a gene for the pups to have it...so i am asking, if she is a brindle, but her parents were not, and he has no brindle in his line, would they have brindle puppies?


then as far as the dilution gene, i read that it can make a choc appear to be brown and ofcourse, it makes back appear to be blue...what dose it do to red?

where did you learn your info? I'd love to read/study what u did


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Lost my whole post!

Dominant require 1 copy and can carry a recessive. Recessive requires 2 copies.
Easiest example nose color
BB black nose, only produce black nose
Bb black nose, can produce red nose
bb red nose, can only produce red nose

Brindle is dominant, so only one parent must be brindle, it doesn't take two. Brindle isn't tecessive except to black in which case that is because you can't see black stripes with a black coat. The dog will simply appear black.

White chocolate red nose
Blue brindle blue nose
Yes some pups would be brindle

One of her parents had to be brindle. Because its dominant over the A series a dog has to be brindle to produce it and will show it. *Reread the exceptions in my first post of wut they might not appear brindle. At all other times they will.

There is no such thing as a reverse brindle. Brindle is a pattern if black stripes expressed over red/yellow (the A series). It is always such, a dog is brindle if it had very few or many heavy striped.

Here are the possible K series combinations
K/K black will produce only black pups *
K/kbr black AND brindle this dog will look black since brindle stripes are also black but can produce black and brindle *
K/k black will produce black and can also produce what is on the A series (i.e. they can have red, fawn, buckskin, black and tan) if pup inherits a k 
Kbr/kbr brindle, will produce only brindle pups *
Kbr/k brindle can produce non brindle, again if pup inherits a k instead
k/k non black, not brindle allows A series to express and produce those colors red/yellow black and tan. Can't produce brindle or black.

*again refer to exceptions in original post

Dilution effects black not red.
Black becomes blue
Chocolate becomes Isabella (most Pit people call it lilac, its the same in a couple other breeds). It doesn't become brown. The same is true of chocolate and tan and chocolate brindle dogs.
Chocolate is a black dog with the liver gene so that is why it is effected, it will effect liver coat and pigment.
Brindle becomes blue brindle a dog with blue stripes and pigment.
Fawn becomes blue fawn a dog with blue tipped hairs and pigment (blue mask if they have a mask).
Black and tan becomes blue and tan

You can search for color genetics there are a lot of websites and several publications. I did mine online and would like do get some canine genetics books. It is a lot to remember but once you learn it its very easy to apply. Remember that not all breeds have the same genes for coat color.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

ok...so...why would a breeder advertize "reverse" brindle? I've heard that it's when the lighter color is more dominant that the dark..and that's how she is...the blue in her coat barley shows up against the fawn and champange colors unless she is wet...i included a pic...and also, why is there two different colors of blue brindle? some look like my girl, then some have a more caramel color to them?

see...now i'm really confused..lol...and now that i think of it, i think the dad had a spot that kind of looked brindle on his back legs ...so...is that a case of what your talking about/


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Reverse is accepted by many people but not genetically accurate. Brindle is a pattern of black stripes over red/yellow base coat. It can never be red stripes over black. Or whichever colors they are modified too. There is only one type of blue brindle. A fawn base coat with a pattern of blue stripes overlaying them. It is a brindle dog that is dd causing the black stripes and pigment to turn blue. It is a blue brindle no matter the density. Yeah he is a brindle.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

so is it common to have solid color, as we'll say blue, with brindle patches and white patches also? I was told that this indicates that it is not purebred...and i have seen very few dogs like this...here is a pic of a male i had for a while, he is not full brindle but has brindle patches..


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

also, if you notice, his tail is black not blue.


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## Dr.Q (Jan 12, 2010)

I will post a link that has THE GENETICS OF BREED COLOR IN THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER. It is a nice link.

American Dog Breeders Association

I myself dont choose by color so any would do.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

i have read that aricle, and according to this discussion, some of that info is incorrect, but thanks for the input


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Do you have any other pics? He almost looks like a tan point.

He is blue brindle, appears to possibly be very dense. His color isn't an indication that he isn't pure bred since brindle is possible in this breed, the amount, placement, density really doesn't matter. 

His tail isn't easy to see, but dark blue can appear almost black. The tail is also often a place of the denses markings on brindles. 

My Cane Corso is very dark and has been mistaken for black even if only a couple times.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

this is the only other good one that i have, but the brindleing was on the eye , and at the socks on his feet and legs, which brings up another question, what would it be to get a tri? do both parents have to be carriers or just one? and would he be considered a brindle tri? lol, i know there's prolly no such thing, but thats how the colors were, like on a tri, he would be brindle, i think i said that right...not sure..lol


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

He is certainly s blue tri, after seeing that pic. Pit Bulls do have those genes, so no mix there.

Tan point is recessive so both parents must be or carry it. Though there can be incomplete dominance if a dog is Ay at, not always but it is believed to possibly factor into heavy shaded sable/smut dogs and you most often find those in litters of tan points or out if a tan point parent. I had a black and tan (with brindle points) and a shaded sable who were mates, the sire was brindle and dam red nose with some shading.
He is actually a good example of what was discussed in earlier post. A dog must be brindle to produce brindle and it is expresses over the yellow/red Ay Ay dog. But if the dog were K/kbr the brindle would be masked and the dog would appear black. In this case you have a tan point (black and tan diluted to blue) so the brindle is masked excepted where the points are. 

His make up is something along the lines of
at at BB CC dd EE Kbr k probably S sp
He could have recessive alleles but they are irrelevant to his color like Bb or Ee for instance. Though knowing that will tell you what he could possibly produce.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

his parents were choc and white and blue brindle, i do not know about there parents, tho, i knew he was not mixed, but i must admit, he is the only pit i had ever seen marked up that way. I got him because of the uniqeness of it . like i said i am more of a markings person over color.

could you post a pic of sumt, and liver? i have seen disputes on what these look like, and am wondering. 
is there a name for, when a patch of color, is deep brown and then lightens up to tan ?
i can post a pic if i wasent clear. 

I got that dog from someone who was going to take him to the pound b/c they had unexpected pups, and could not get rid of the final 3 , so they threw them away, hate people like that. i already had 3 dogs, but i took him in to try and give him a shot at a better life than "pts" .


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Liver is basically interchangeble with chocolate.
Labs are chocolate
Brittanies are liver
Dalmatians its liver (spots)
They are all genetically the same color

bb is considered liver we call it red nose in Pits.

Liver is black effected by the recessive genes bb that causes black pigment to be brown

Smut, (shaded) sable or dirty buckskin

















This is the sister to the black and tan with brindle points

If his sire was chocolate then he is Bb

Yes a pic would help, so I can be certain what you mean


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

ok, so this is my guy i'm questioning, about 80% of the time he looks choc or a milky brown (very dark) then at certian times of the year, he looks red. or tanish..but no matter what he has a line at his back that is always very dark then it lightens up into the other color.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

i also have pics of him where he looks more red. 
when he was a puppy, he was clearly choc, like the pup in the pic (belongs to his littermate) but the older he gets, it's like the lighter his coat looks, but it keeps that dark line at the top. if you look at the first pic, you can see just how dark it is all the way to his tail, wich i seen in your earlier post, that color can be concentrated on the tail. i have noticed some of his hairs being black tipped as well, i am wondering if he is liver or what, i have no idea, i have tried to place his color, but cant, it's like it constantly changes. light to dark, and back again. 
Is this a dilution gene that causes it? or is it just me being an idiot, lol.. 
i have seen dogs that look alot like him, that have a red (clearly) spot on the head or neck, etc, but then further back on there body, towards the rear, it is a very dark brown. how do you get two colors on one dog?


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Does he look lighter in the summer?

Most will have the darkest color along the dorsal region. So that is pretty normal.

You'll also notice that they have varying shades in the coat. (even people have different color tones, someone with brown hair has differing tones, not every hair is the same color.) They are not a single color but s variance.

A dog that is homozygous for liver can't have black in their coat (or anywhere else).

It isn't uncommon for dogs to "change color" with age, the shade can be noticebly different.

Here are some photos which allow you to see shades.








(This is a brother to one of mine)


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

thats kind of the way his is, but yes, he is lighter in the summer, but it's like the patch starts out clearly chocolate, then goes to brown to a tanish red, inside that one cow patch, i just wondered if there was a gene that caused the fading. i know ones like this are normal, i just havent seen many that fade out like him. Its hard to nail his color.

this is one of my blue girls, you can see the dark blue almost black down her back and fade into her shoulders to an almost silvery grey, and i have seen that, i had a red female, like the one you posted that did this same thing only red. his is just different, it's like a faded t-shirt, lol


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

A lot of dogs will be lighter in the summer, especially more they are outside.

Some lighter brindles (red nose) get very bleached where the brindle isn't distinguishable.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

wow, see didn't know it made a difference, they stay out in the summertime, then inside for the winter. so that makes since. 

so what are some colors you'd like to see put together? 
i know this conversation has gotten away from genetics a bit, but i have enjoyed it and really learned a lot.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

What do you mean put together? Like the parents in a breeding?


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

yeah lol, sorry, should of been more clear


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

No biggie. I wasn't sure if you meant color / markings on an individual dog or from a breeding. I never thot about it as it doesn't really matter to me. I'm more into pedigrees then the colors. To me it doesn't really matter. I've had litters where there was variety and others where they were very similar.


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## pitmommy2010 (Jul 29, 2010)

so i'm gonna take this in a somewhat different direction.

soo do you breed yourself? 

if so, do you run a kennel operation, or do you just have a set of champ dogs, and do the occasional thing?
im asking, b/c you see alot of people out here telling people not to breed due to the shelters and people who live for some unknown reason to mistreat these dogs. and i'm on board with this, to an extent. I think the kennels are at just as much fault as anyone else. yes there dogs may have a great ped, and won some ribbons, but if you breed 4 females a year, champ or not, sooner or later there gonna end up in the wrong hands. And the prices they put on them make it hard for "regualr people" to own one, thus making it so much easier for the "byb's" to do what they do. is there not some way to regulate things?

then the other thing is, do you think a dog should be a proven champ before it is bred, or do you think if it has been geneticly tested, and has no defaults, is registerd with a very good pedigree, nice blood line etc, that it would be ok to produce offspring with a partner of the same?

i think all these kennels (not every one, i know there are some out there that this is not true of) are not in it for the betterment of the breed, but money and attention. 

when is it ok to breed your dogs? do you have to be a big shot, or if you own two nice dogs, with all the requirements, is it ok to produce one litter, and then to have them fixed?

I had my group, lol, fixed b/c we live out here in BFE and there are so many dogs left of chain and unattended, that i promise, i'd let one of the girls out to pee during season, and they'd come in pregnant. so i didnt take that chance, plus, the blue girl i had in that pic above I aquired from one of those byb's..she's 3 and been bread one heat right after the other for her whole life. she is registered, but has flaws. so, the only one I would of ever had a litter out of is my blue brindle. but, just decided it wasn't worth it. My boy has not been fixed yet. I was kinda hoping that i could find a nice female and have just one litter with him, but he now has an appointment next month to be fixed as well. 
this i guess, along with my school is what got this whole thing brewing in my mind..i wish who ever had the power would put a little variety in it sometimes, like i said in a previous post. I do wonder what my dogs would of produced, as they all have some great dispositions and blood lines, etc, they are not show dogs, tho, as i have no kind of experience in that at all...would love to get into it tho. 
anyway, just rambling on, lol


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## pitbulljojo (Apr 2, 2009)

He looks like my penny - shes a blue nose. Chocolate with brindle patches


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

pitmommy2010 said:


> soo do you breed yourself?
> 
> if so, do you run a kennel operation, or do you just have a set of champ dogs, and do the occasional thing?


Yes.

What is the difference? It seems one in the same. Some breeders bred more others less.



> im asking, b/c you see alot of people out here telling people not to breed due to the shelters and people who live for some unknown reason to mistreat these dogs. and i'm on board with this, to an extent. I think the kennels are at just as much fault as anyone else. yes there dogs may have a great ped, and won some ribbons, but if you breed 4 females a year, champ or not, sooner or later there gonna end up in the wrong hands. And the prices they put on them make it hard for "regualr people" to own one, thus making it so much easier for the "byb's" to do what they do. is there not some way to regulate things?


It's up to breeders to do what is best so yes the careless ones are at fault, as are the pet owners with accidental litters.

They will only end up in the wrong hands if the breeder places them in those hands.

Breeding can be very expensive so one can expect to pay for a pup. Though I don't see many breeders charging a fortune. Vet bills are also expensive so it can get your pocket book in the end to buy a byb pup. There is no reason why a regular person can't find a good breeder with reasonably priced dogs (especially in this breed). I also note that "regular people" regularly pay 4 digit prices at pet stores for puppy mill dogs.

Everyone has their price limits and criteria they want. I've got dogs for nothing (including those from CH parents) and I've spent up to 2k. I'd have to say that one of my current best (and favorite) dogs was very cheap as a deal came into play for me (though I wasn't even interested in the litter, glad it turned out that way). I do think that I got lucky in a way to get such a dog. Good hips, normal thyroid, drive, determination, biddability, conformation, intelligence, temperament that I like, it looks like longevity with a healthy lifespan.



> then the other thing is, do you think a dog should be a proven champ before it is bred, or do you think if it has been geneticly tested, and has no defaults, is registerd with a very good pedigree, nice blood line etc, that it would be ok to produce offspring with a partner of the same?


No a dog doesn't need to be a CH to be bred, there are valid reasons for breeding other than conformation. Some breeds there is actually opposition towards it, like the Border Collie the ABCA doesn't recognize registries which promote conformation and will deregister a dog that obtains a CH title. I realize our focus is Pits in this discussion but its not limited to a single breed. Conformation isn't the reason or only legitimate reason to breed. Don't get me wrong I'm not against shows. The dog in my avatar and the female I was discussing above are CHs. The point is simply that there is a different reason for breeders in the breedings they chose. Some breeders I do outright disagree with and don't believe they should be breeding.



> i think all these kennels (not every one, i know there are some out there that this is not true of) are not in it for the betterment of the breed, but money and attention.


True a lot of people breed for the betterment of their wallet.



> when is it ok to breed your dogs? do you have to be a big shot, or if you own two nice dogs, with all the requirements, is it ok to produce one litter, and then to have them fixed?


My answer if when the dog is proven/bred for a purpose and its genes will contribute positively to the gene pool.

I'm not sure what you mean as far as a big shot? I don't believe who you are matters if you know what you are doing.

I don't see the point in the breeding such as that. Breeders should have goals and a good reason for breeding. If they are only breeding one litter and s/n the parents it doesn't seem like they had plans for a breeding program at all. There are exceptions but most people the 1x breeders don't breed for a reason and overall typically do not contribute to the breed.

It isn't only important for a breeder to have a reason to breed but also know when to cull.


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