# is it pit or not??



## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Ok guys I've been on this sight reading and learning and I was wondering, when they say an am.bully is not a" pit bull " is it because the am bully has no pit bull blood in it or because its been changed so much to create what is the am.bully today? Thnx


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

American Bullies are not American Pit Bull Terriers. Pits, pit bulls are just short terms for American Pit Bull Terriers.

American Bullies originated as a cross between the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier but a lot of them today have other breeds mixed in as well.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

Really? I never knew that's how they made the American bully.

What was the purpose of the cross between APBT & AmStaff? Since both breeds look so similar

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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

~Missy~ said:


> American Bullies are not American Pit Bull Terriers. Pits, pit bulls are just short terms for American Pit Bull Terriers.
> 
> American Bullies originated as a cross between the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier but a lot of them today have other breeds mixed in as well.


 Wrong , and of course you will note that *ALL* AmStaffs and *ALL* APBTs will lead back to the exact same place and base dogs..


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## pookie! (Jun 20, 2011)

To create a "bullier" style dog, they dont really look that similar but it was a cross between UKC and AKC dogs (with other breeds per what Wilson said), the first generations of the Razors Edge dogs looked like heavier boned AmStaff, because thats what they essentially were


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## Coyne1981 (Mar 5, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Wrong , and of course you will note that *ALL* AmStaffs and *ALL* APBTs will lead back to the exact same place and base dogs..


Just curious about what part is "wrong"?


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

That's what I was wondering bc before they branched off....didn't they all originate from the same place?

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## pookie! (Jun 20, 2011)

Yea the UKC, AKC, ADBA etc all originated from the same pit dogs of old. 

If you go back in the UKC or AKC dogs, they are all traced back to game dogs.


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Wrong , and of course you will note that *ALL* AmStaffs and *ALL* APBTs will lead back to the exact same place and base dogs..


Cause I was on bullypedia (don't know if there reliable? ) but i was looking at cbf mo money and went all the way back in his bloodline to 1900's and found some colby and other apbt lines and thought it was interesting.


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Saw some pics of some bad a** old school apbt's


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## Coyne1981 (Mar 5, 2013)

rocthebully said:


> Saw some pics of some bad a** old school apbt's


Yup. There is no doubt the american bully originated from APBT. The cross with AMSTAFF is what wilson claims and I dont doubt it. Its kind of tough as far as I know and at this point because the bully is a new breed. Im no expert, but the way I see it, if you see

NOTORIOUS JUAN GOTTY - Verified American Bully Pedigree Database

or

RAZOR'S EDGE PURPLE ROSE OF CAIRO - Verified American Bully Pedigree Database

in the last 2 generations, thats some good blood for the bully world.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

I came across this petition in another forum(real old topic) when I was researching American bullies

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/132/176/281/#next_action

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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Remeber this is all ON PAPER....... paper hanging isnt hard.... amd has been admitted to.

On paper my dogs go back to "old bad ass apbt" as well. .


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## Coyne1981 (Mar 5, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Remeber this is all ON PAPER....... paper hanging isnt hard.... amd has been admitted to.
> 
> On paper my dogs go back to "old bad ass apbt" as well. .


Good point.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Coyne1981 said:


> Good point.


Not "bashing" just saying the lines I run on paper are 100% pure bred apbt but my smallest male is 90lbs... I dont see even the orginal razors edge dogs being apbt xs. Am staffs yes. Why breed in the genetics you're trying to avoid to add the drive? How do you add the drive of the apbt but cut the da?


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

And I find it funny how you can see a big difference in how the am bully of today looks so different from there grandparents and great grandparents , and that's not even that far back, they don't show the bulldog in the pedigree they threw in there to make them look so extreme.


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

For example look at gottylines Romeo ped . Look at the dogs before him then look at him and the dogs after which includes the famous stud DAX the looks are dramaticly different, its crazy


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

rocthebully said:


> And I find it funny how you can see a big difference in how the am bully of today looks so different from there grandparents and great grandparents , and that's not even that far back, they don't show the bulldog in the pedigree they threw in there to make them look so extreme.


They ALL look like bulldogs that's why I'm so shocked an APBT and AmStaff created that. Can anyone post any pix of how these dog started off as? Bc google just shows a bulldog body with a "pit" type head.

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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

DieselsMommie said:


> They ALL look like bulldogs that's why I'm so shocked an APBT and AmStaff created that. Can anyone post any pix of how these dog started off as? Bc google just shows a bulldog body with a "pit" type head.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Go to bullypedia and look up dax , miagi , mo money or any other big name bully and just click on there parents and there parents etc.go back as far as you can.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Just look up "throwing knuckles" or "purple rose of cairo"


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## Pink (Jun 29, 2011)

DieselsMommie said:


> They ALL look like bulldogs that's why I'm so shocked an APBT and AmStaff created that. Can anyone post any pix of how these dog started off as? Bc google just shows a bulldog body with a "pit" type head.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah, they were never meant to be the EB mixes you see folks parading around now.

Examples of some of the first American Bullies..

In the words of Dave Wilson:



> The dog that I created that gave me the ultimate look was Cairo. Once Cairo was created, that was basically me saying "I'm done. I've got exactly what I'm looking for in the ultimate dog, and this is the accomplishment that I've been looking for all these years, and striving for."





> Cairo, truly in his prime, I would say, was mid to upper 90's at top weight. He wasn't short, and I don't know heights these days. People are crazy, I don't even know how they measure these days. Cairo was probably 19 3/4"-20".


The dog Dave's referring to - Purple Rose of Cairo










Couple others..

RE's Welcome 2 the Edge










RE's Tequila Sunrise










Shame how people have taken this breed, and what it was originally meant to be, and made it into the mockery that it is today.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

http://www.gopitbull.com/bullies-101/35184-x-pert-gallant-foundation-american-bully.html
Was put together by pitbullmomatl pretty good little read.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

because unless you keep breeding the right[game] ones, you will lose gameness.

i believe gameness is a recessive gene, you need to keep it to the forfront, 
if not you basically have a 'show' dog which is nothing like a true apbt.

you breed for gameness and everything else will fall in line and trying to do that can still take generations.

like when you see the dog shows on the tv, you have 'field' and 'show' dogs,
might be called the same but, they are definitely not the same.

just try to tell someone that works his fox hounds that your gonna mix some 'show' blood in to make his dogs look prettier, wont be worth nothing in the field but they will look prettier.

aint really quite understanding that thought process


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Yeah I dnt get it surfer. If you listen to dave wilson he wanted to make a drivey am staff....


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Wrong , and of course you will note that *ALL* AmStaffs and *ALL* APBTs will lead back to the exact same place and base dogs..


Not sure what part of my comment is wrong...plz elaborate? We all know where they all came from....


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

~Missy~ said:


> Not sure what part of my comment is wrong...plz elaborate? We all know where they all came from....


Ummm we know what we've been told..... just like with my dogs depends on who you talked to and when you talked to them as to how they came to be...


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

Those dogs look nothing like what there is today.....

It's SO obvious EB is in there....c'mon now

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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

DieselsMommie said:


> Those dogs look nothing like what there is today.....
> 
> It's SO obvious EB is in there....c'mon now
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh yeah. Even the bully ppl around here hate those monstrosities. Stalk bully boards, whats hot shit this year wont be seen in 3 years. Its really sad. They are only shortening the life span of the dogs and making them unhealthy mutants (dont mean it to sound degrading but I lack a better word in my vocabulary).


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

I never understood why people always considered an EB to be 'muscular' and 'tough' looking. My cousin had one and the puppy almost died bc of all the health problems it was born with. The dog couldn't even go downstairs bc it was so unporportioned. Going up stairs, he sounded like an obese person with emphysema. Never was a fan of the English bulldog. Very curious about the ORIGINAL bulldog tho.

The American bully confuses me. So many classifications it's so scattered.

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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

I bet this will be their next direction or class size








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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

~Missy~ said:


> Not sure what part of my comment is wrong...plz elaborate? We all know where they all came from....


 Your claim that the APBT and AST were interbred to get the AmBully , the APBT and AST are derived from the exact same genetic material in the first place.

And ashcan that snotty " we all know where they came from" , because apparently you don't.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

So the AmBully and APBT and AST all came from the same dogs, so what all did they put in to get AmBullies? Just curious, since I thought the same thing Missy did til I read through here. You guys mentioned English Bulldogs, anything else? And while I'm at it, I keep seeing some people say that APBTs were not crosses between bulldogs and terriers. Everything else I've looked up on APBTs (Wikipedia and such, mostly online stuff so this could be false) says they were. So unless I read what those people were saying wrong (very possible) what makes you guys say that? Not trying to start an argument or drama, just wanting to learn a little history on the breed. If my question is dumb, I apologize. I'm just feeling a bit confused reading one story and then another.

Edit: If the answer to my question is too long or better answered in private, feel free to pm.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

myself, i dont know where they really came from..............
england, ireland, or somewhere.
i agree there had to be a 'core' of dogs to be consistant,

but once we got them here and really developed what we see today.

in other words, we took the ball and ran with it.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

It's interesting to see the different stories... When I was researching the history of the German shepherd before I got one, it was "this happened, this happened, and the GSD was created". But the GSD is a much newer breed, I'm sure that makes a difference.


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

surfer said:


> myself, i dont know where they really came from..............
> england, ireland, or somewhere.
> i agree there had to be a 'core' of dogs to be consistant,
> 
> ...


On bullypedia it said a lot of them were from ireland, I think only the people who created the apbt and am.bully really know what went In to these dogs of course but I'm also confused but there was a lot of good points and info and I'm sure a few people learned a lil in this thread


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Your claim that the APBT and AST were interbred to get the AmBully , the APBT and AST are derived from the exact same genetic material in the first place.
> 
> And ashcan that snotty " we all know where they came from" , because apparently you don't.


The American Bully derived from crossing the ADBA APBT and the UKC AST. More breeds have be introduced in since the original breedings started. Yes they are ALL derived from the same genetic material, but I'm sure you are aware that the ADBA APBTS and the UKC ASTs have different structures.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

~Missy~ said:


> The American Bully derived from crossing the ADBA APBT and the UKC AST. More breeds have be introduced in since the original breedings started. Yes they are ALL derived from the same genetic material, but I'm sure you are aware that the ADBA APBTS and the UKC ASTs have different structures.


Isn't UKC APBT & AKC is AST?

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## Coyne1981 (Mar 5, 2013)

Well, that is what Wilson said he did. An AST and APBT. And purple rose of cairo is what he bred as "razors edge". After that, all kinds of things hit the fan. And you have all kinds of mixes for the am bully. But, unless you know something about the american bully thats some top secret thing. I dont think you have any way to tell us what they originally started from Old Dog.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

~Missy~ said:


> The American Bully derived from crossing the ADBA APBT and the UKC AST. More breeds have be introduced in since the original breedings started. Yes they are ALL derived from the same genetic material, but I'm sure you are aware that the ADBA APBTS and the UKC ASTs have different structures.


 Nahhhh , in better than four decades of involvement with these dogs I guess I missed all that. I wouldn't know anything whatsoever about the ADBA dogs as opposed to the UKC/AKC dogs.

Nope wouldn't know a thing.........


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

DieselsMommie said:


> Isn't UKC APBT & AKC is AST?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


lol, yes....I was trying to say AKC AST and UKC APBT...got all mixed up.


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Nahhhh , in better than four decades of involvement with these dogs I guess I missed all that. I wouldn't know anything whatsoever about the ADBA dogs as opposed to the UKC/AKC dogs.
> 
> Nope wouldn't know a thing.........


I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know anything. But, I'll just shut up now, beings I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Coyne1981 said:


> Well, that is what Wilson said he did. An AST and APBT. And purple rose of cairo is what he bred as "razors edge". After that, all kinds of things hit the fan. And you have all kinds of mixes for the am bully. But, unless you know something about the american bully thats some top secret thing. I dont think you have any way to tell us what they originally started from Old Dog.


 ROTFLMAO...they originally started with APBts and crossed in a buncha crap for the marketplace and the latest Fad.

And the whole concept of a " crossbred between OKC/AKC ( or ADBA for that matter) is nothing more than a freaking red herring , since the ADBA , AKC and UKC dogs ***ALL*** go back to the same base stock anyway.

And frankly ya damn straight a buncha things got crossed , when you take into account the variances in phenotype and structure etc within the " Bullys" a HELL of a lot of other stuff got crossed in.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

DieselsMommie said:


> Isn't UKC APBT & AKC is AST?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes ma'am as far as I know. Akc does am staffs....


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## Coyne1981 (Mar 5, 2013)

OldDog said:


> ROTFLMAO...they originally started with APBts and crossed in a buncha crap for the marketplace and the latest Fad.
> 
> And the whole concept of a " crossbred between OKC/AKC ( or ADBA for that matter) is nothing more than a freaking red herring , since the ADBA , AKC and UKC dogs ***ALL*** go back to the same base stock anyway.
> 
> And frankly ya damn straight a buncha things got crossed , when you take into account the variances in phenotype and structure etc within the " Bullys" a HELL of a lot of other stuff got crossed in.


So, YOU DONT KNOW then. What is the purpose of telling Missy she is wrong?


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Coyne1981 said:


> So, YOU DONT KNOW then. What is the purpose of telling Missy she is wrong?


 The purpose is THAT she's in error you blithering Berk , to " cross" the AST and the UKC APBt will and would end up with nothing but more of the same , folks have been crossing those lines back and forth since the AKC went to the ASts.

To reach to differences in phenotype achieved in the short time frame it was done in necessitates outcrosses to different breeds.

And YEAH I do KNOW where a buncha the bodies are buried on this , just as with the big weightpull dogs , so take your " YOU DONT KNOW" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine , in the future if you want sugar when someone is in error then go buy some snickerdoodles.


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

OldDog said:


> The purpose is THAT she's in error you blithering Berk , to " cross" the AST and the UKC APBt will and would end up with nothing but more of the same , folks have been crossing those lines back and forth since the AKC went to the ASts.
> 
> To reach to differences in phenotype achieved in the short time frame it was done in necessitates outcrosses to different breeds.
> 
> And YEAH I do KNOW where a buncha the bodies are buried on this , just as with the big weightpull dogs , so take your " YOU DONT KNOW" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine , in the future if you want sugar when someone is in error then go buy some snickerdoodles.


Yea, I was incorrect stating the AST....the cross started with the ADBA APBT and the UKC APBT.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

~Missy~ said:


> Yea, I was incorrect stating the AST....the cross started with the ADBA APBT and the UKC APBT.


But like Old Dog said, if you breed two dogs that are basically the same thing, wouldn't you get more of the same? I don't know, just asking.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

~Missy~ said:


> Yea, I was incorrect stating the AST....the cross started with the ADBA APBT and the UKC APBT.


So wheres the cross?


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> But like Old Dog said, if you breed two dogs that are basically the same thing, wouldn't you get more of the same? I don't know, just asking.


Yes, but structurally, the ADBA dogs differ from the UKC dogs.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

~Missy~ said:


> Yes, but structurally, the ADBA dogs differ from the UKC dogs.


Interesting... So they bred two similiar dogs. What doesn't make sense to me though is, they can't be ALL that different. So they bred these dogs, got something barely different than the APBT structurally, then threw some other stuff in? Am I following correctly?


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

smh..... My original statement was correct. American Bullies originated from crossing the APBT and the AST. Nowadays there are many other breeds mixed into some of the bloodlines.

Yes, the APBT and AST derived from the same gene pool, but throughout the years they have been bred into different breeds.


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## Coyne1981 (Mar 5, 2013)

OldDog said:


> The purpose is THAT she's in error you blithering Berk , to " cross" the AST and the UKC APBt will and would end up with nothing but more of the same , folks have been crossing those lines back and forth since the AKC went to the ASts.
> 
> To reach to differences in phenotype achieved in the short time frame it was done in necessitates outcrosses to different breeds.
> 
> And YEAH I do KNOW where a buncha the bodies are buried on this , just as with the big weightpull dogs , so take your " YOU DONT KNOW" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine , in the future if you want sugar when someone is in error then go buy some snickerdoodles.


So once again, old fella. YOU CANT SAY WHERE THE AMERICAN BULLY ORIGINATED? Correct? So why chime in on this thread? Im gonna save some brain cells and let you babble on and go and try and do something positive for this forum like you should be doing instead of getting glory out of putting people down. And Im sincere with that. You have a ton of knowledge that could be usefull to people here. Yet you do this.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

I'm not trying to say you're wrong or confuse you, just trying to follow along. I honestly have no idea how they made AmBullies.


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> I'm not trying to say you're wrong or confuse you, just trying to follow along. I honestly have no idea how they made AmBullies.


I know! I confused myself. lol


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Throwing knuckles was bred from ack champion stock. He was bred to Sadie Paddington a UKC bred gyp theses dogs were some of the main foundation. Akc (amstaff) to ukc ( show apbt).


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Pirple Rose of Ciaro was also ukc bred dog with heavy amstaff influence. It is with him amd the unknowns in the ped the leads me to believe he had the mix of larger blood not to mention he was a larger dog.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

~Missy~ said:


> smh..... My original statement was correct. American Bullies originated from crossing the APBT and the AST. Nowadays there are many other breeds mixed into some of the bloodlines.
> 
> Yes, the APBT and AST derived from the same gene pool, but throughout the years they have been bred into different breeds.


 NO your original statement is NOT correct. The APBT and the AST are the *same* breed genetically speaking , *ALL* APBTs and ASTS , regardless of registry lead back to E X A C T L Y the same place and same E X A C T foundation dogs.

Hence " crossing" the UKC and AKC dogs will just bring more of the same , now do I need to trot out examples that have held Championships un both AKC and UKC auspices? Maybe the few TRIPLE championed dogs?

Do I really need to start pointing out when the AKC stud book was open for crossing into UKC blood and vice versa? Do I need to point out the FOUNDATION UKC and gamebred dogs behind certain popular AKC bloodlines?

Breeding a big Staff like UKC/AKC dog to another of the same will give you big Staff Like ULC/AKC style dogs , NOT short squat bullies with various sorts om Molossers hiding in the pedigree woodpile.

Some of y'all need to do some basic math as regards genetics , take a look at the culling process and how many generations it takes for a new breed to breed " true " , then look at the " Bullies" , where they started and where they are no and the time frame involved...........

Now do the damn math..................it's not freaking rocket science.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Rudy4747 said:


> Pirple Rose of Ciaro was also ukc bred dog with heavy amstaff influence. It is with him amd the unknowns in the ped the leads me to believe he had the mix of larger blood not to mention he was a larger dog.


Do you mean larger blood as in larger AmStaff blood or a different, larger breed?


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Coyne1981 said:


> So once again, old fella. YOU CANT SAY WHERE THE AMERICAN BULLY ORIGINATED? Correct? So why chime in on this thread? Im gonna save some brain cells and let you babble on and go and try and do something positive for this forum like you should be doing instead of getting glory out of putting people down. And Im sincere with that. You have a ton of knowledge that could be usefull to people here. Yet you do this.


 And you're about as snot nosed as it gets there Miss Priss. So take your sideways ad hominem and stuff THAT where the sun doesn't shine too.

Quite obviously the AmBully is a modern American creation of those catering to a Fad craze for 6 dogs long , half a dog high , swaybacked , out at the elbows , cowhocked canine genetic flotsam and jetsam.

And spare me your hypocritical whiny bullshit about " putting people down" , take a look in the mirror there Berk and at your own snotty words above.

Now slowly so you can understand , the BASE dogs for the AmBully were AST and UKC stock , a variety of other BREEDS have come into play to achieve the desired phenotype.

To arrive at this result would have taken DECADES and DECADES of culling and phenotype SPECIFIC genetic selection if you started SOLELY with the base breed and stuck SOLELY to said base breed.

So now you TELL me there clown , which is it? The AmBully has been around for th necessary fifty or more years but the breed has been hiding under a rock? There are lotsa breeders of AmBullies who culled up a storm based solely upon phenotype and have hidden Dachaus of those culls hiding in their backyards?

Or the unscrupulous bullshit artist BYBs inhabiting the AmBullies bred in various Mollosser breeds to get their desired phenotype and size in the short amount of time AmBullies have been around?

Pick one. And get used to the basic FACT that there is little difference between the AKC and UKC dogs as far as phenotype goes.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Macoy she don't count lol she not bred from big ukc stock.

Missy I think that the holes in purplr roses ped could come from the fact he migh have been mixed. Bullies weren't always so sloppy and their weren't always different classes. The begining the all looked like heavy amstaffs. 

Head and chest above the rest was wilsons saying he wasn't about squaty dogs. The ABCK when the buio t standards to fit all the different types of crap out their hurt their own cause cause it led to people crssing to keep the dominant genes from correcting the flaws they created in few generations.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

So you and Missy are both correct? They began by crossing the AST and the APBT but to get the structure they wanted quickly they mixed in other breeds, right? That makes sense.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Well the way it seems is dave wilson mixed show amstaffs to broad big boned ukc show dogs. He wanted big powerful looking dogs. But didn't want the drive of apbts. So bred bigger softer dogs. Along the way different people all over the coumtry went in different directions with the dogs.

When wilson started a registry for the am bully. Being the sales men he is he had to create diffrent classes to fit all the different looks ofnhis said breed.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

i'd like to know when they [bullys] came about, until the mid 90's there was NO ONE deeper in the dodo, than me, and i hadn't ever heard of them at that time.

were they around before then???????????

why did they even come about??????????????/

it damn sure wasnt for contesting the dog, because all that bull malarkey had been tried,
and it didnt work. if it had you would've heard SOMETHING about them.

if anything else had worked it would have been used, remember,
back then when it came to who got bred, it was best to best within the family.

there was some outcrossing but not that often, when it did get introduced, supposedly 
it was for 'hybrid vigor'


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Sarah~ said:


> So you and Missy are both correct? They began by crossing the AST and the APBT but to get the structure they wanted quickly they mixed in other breeds, right? That makes sense.


 Yes. Except for the fact that the AST/APBt is NOT a " cross " , it's breeding like to like.

And to select , evaluate and CULL for the result that is todays ' Bully' would mean thousands and thousands of dogs culled and many decades worth of work.

Where are those culls , where is the selection population for the base? Where are the breeders keeping large enough kennel numbers that such selection is a viable proposition?

Oh that's right , they don't exist. So to get from here........

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [15094] :: TUDOR'S BLACK JACK (16XW)

To here.............in the short amount of time allotted .what do y'all think they did? DO THE MATH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed Shepherd American Bullies, Home of Grand Champion DAX!


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

OldDog said:


> And you're about as snot nosed as it gets there Miss Priss. So take your sideways ad hominem and stuff THAT where the sun doesn't shine too.
> 
> Quite obviously the AmBully is a modern American creation of those catering to a Fad craze for 6 dogs long , half a dog high , swaybacked , out at the elbows , cowhocked canine genetic flotsam and jetsam.
> 
> ...


The bold is exactly what I've been saying...yet you're saying I'm wrong. lol


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

surfer said:


> i'd like to know when they [bullys] came about, until the mid 90's there was NO ONE deeper in the dodo, than me, and i hadn't ever heard of them at that time.
> 
> were they around before then???????????
> 
> ...


Sufer I don't believe their was any athletic purpose it was all for the look. Sure their was others be fore the re I mean the watchdog and grapevine lines were introduced around the same time also large blue dogs soo who know when and were the odea of said dog originated I don't.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

~Missy~ said:


> The bold is exactly what I've been saying...yet you're saying I'm wrong. lol


 Nope you started out with " they're an AST/APBT cross"...........they aren't and since that would ( as previously stated) be LIKE TO LIKE , that " cross" wouldn't get you far unless you kept hundreds of dogs and selected SPECIFICALLY based upon phenotype , a process which would take six generations or so to even begin to breed true..

You DO NOT change structure in such a radical manner and such a short time frame without going outside the breed. This will hold true FAR beyond just canines , perhaps some research on your part into commercial breeding within industries that utilise massive numbers and which have to react to market changes within the framework of a short time period genetically speaking is in order.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Yes. Except for the fact that the AST/APBt is NOT a " cross " , it's breeding like to like.
> 
> And to select , evaluate and CULL for the result that is todays ' Bully' would mean thousands and thousands of dogs culled and many decades worth of work.
> 
> ...


Oh wow, I'm sorry but the dogs in the second link look awful. Those poor things.  But what you're saying makes perfect sense, those two pictures are drastically different, and in a very short amount of time.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Sarah~ said:


> Oh wow, I'm sorry but the dogs in the second link look awful. Those poor things.  But what you're saying makes perfect sense, those two pictures are drastically different, and in a very short amount of time.


 Yeah well , the amount of time elapsed is radically shorter than from BlackJack to the Dax dogs , try from the '90s to today.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

^^ even shorter then you know the suoer short amd wide bully was not popular until m2000s well after the bully movement began. Bully were not always short amd wide it os just the latest fad of tue breed. They don't understand that a show breed can not be a singular breed with out a stable standard. It is sad that the abkc allows for somuch leeway in what they consider breed stock.


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> So you and Missy are both correct? They began by crossing the AST and the APBT but to get the structure they wanted quickly they mixed in other breeds, right? That makes sense.


They breed the apbt with the ast to get a dog with more gerth and thicker bone and compact and that's what started the name "bully" , breeders were starting to breed for that bully look but I guess that wasn't enough so they started breeding towards another look that's when all this extreme pocket and exotic crap started


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

OldDog said:


> You DO NOT change structure in such a radical manner and such a short time frame without going outside the breed. This will hold true FAR beyond just canines , perhaps some research on your part into commercial breeding within industries that utilise massive numbers and which have to react to market changes within the framework of a short time period genetically speaking is in order.


I actually watched a documentary that said canine genes have some repeating sequence (or something like that) that allows them to change their appearance when they breed much faster than any other animal on earth. That's how we can see so many differences so quickly and how we have been able to tweak them to our liking to create the breeds we have today. And it's only canines like wolves, coyotes, foxes, dogs, etc.

A bit off topic, but I thought this was very interesting.


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Nope you started out with " they're an AST/APBT cross"...........they aren't and since that would ( as previously stated) be LIKE TO LIKE , that " cross" wouldn't get you far unless you kept hundreds of dogs and selected SPECIFICALLY based upon phenotype , a process which would take six generations or so to even begin to breed true..
> 
> You DO NOT change structure in such a radical manner and such a short time frame without going outside the breed. This will hold true FAR beyond just canines , perhaps some research on your part into commercial breeding within industries that utilise massive numbers and which have to react to market changes within the framework of a short time period genetically speaking is in order.


Just a different use of words...same meaning. And as I said, other breeds were mixed into SOME of the bloodlines.

Not all American Bullies are structural messes...take mine for example.


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Yes. Except for the fact that the AST/APBt is NOT a " cross " , it's breeding like to like.
> 
> And to select , evaluate and CULL for the result that is todays ' Bully' would mean thousands and thousands of dogs culled and many decades worth of work.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I'm talking about the big difference in the look but you don't even have to go back that far to see the difference there's a big difference between dax and his great and great great grandparents


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Rudy4747 said:


> ^^ even shorter then you know the suoer short amd wide bully was not popular until m2000s well after the bully movement began. Bully were not always short amd wide it os just the latest fad of tue breed. They don't understand that a show breed can not be a singular breed with out a stable standard. It is sad that the abkc allows for somuch leeway in what they consider breed stock.


I've always wondered about that, most breeds standard is "the dog is between this height and this height, about this weight, etc" but with bullies it can be pretty much any weight, any height as long as it looks basically like a bully. Yes, some breeds have giant, standard and toy but the bullies have so many classes it makes my head spin!


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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Yeah well , the amount of time elapsed is radically shorter than from BlackJack to the Dax dogs , try from the '90s to today.


Yup, I agree


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! dont think i like the dogs in that second link, other than to look at, what can you do with them???????

if theres a big difference from grandparents to dax, makes me think someone is hanging papers, they just cant change that fast.

it takes 7 generations to breed 'true to form' that didnt happen


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Ah yes you're right they are manipulated I think they were saying dogs change the fastest or something like that... I'm terrible at summarizing things it was a NOVA documentary on Netflix, The Science of Dogs I believe, if anyone wants to check it out. Talked about an experiment where they were domesticating jackals and in the process where they picked the most docile ones from the litters the jackals appearance started to change. It was pretty cool


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

the AST and APBt are not the same breed. originally the American Bully was a pitterstaff, but selective breeding for a larger, more docile less dog aggressive dog was what he was after. The link Rudy posted is a good one, you should take a look.

the original dog was what is considered the classic American Bully, there are MANY great looking American Bullies in all the classes. yes there are MANY horrible looking ones out there, but the same can be said about tons of breeds. The American Bully isn't unique on that end.

Almost ALL breeds have changed and evolved by selectively breeding them.






Let alone the "new" "breeds" that get created all the time.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Sarah~ said:


> Ah yes you're right they are manipulated I think they were saying dogs change the fastest or something like that... I'm terrible at summarizing things it was a NOVA documentary on Netflix, The Science of Dogs I believe, if anyone wants to check it out. Talked about an experiment where they were domesticating jackals and in the process where they picked the most docile ones from the litters the jackals appearance started to change. It was pretty cool


I'm actually reading a book on animal genetics right now and I believe the experiment you are referencing was done using foxes. They were selectively bred to be calm and less fearful and in only a few generations they began displaying black and white coat patterns and their ears began to flop over.

Here's a link to the article about the experiment: http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/early-canid-domestication-the-farm-fox-experiment/1


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Carriana said:


> I'm actually reading a book on animal genetics right now and I believe the experiment you are referencing was done using foxes. They were selectively bred to be calm and less fearful and in only a few generations they began displaying black and white coat patterns and their ears began to flop over.
> 
> Here's a link to the article about the experiment: http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/early-canid-domestication-the-farm-fox-experiment/1


I'm wrong again ^_^; Yeah that's what they were saying happened, the changing coat patterns and floppy ears.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

ames said:


> the AST and APBt are not the same breed. originally the American Bully was a pitterstaff,


 In actuality the APBT and AST *are* the same breed , same roots , same base stock.

And as I have previously pointed out there have been quite a number of dogs which have finished in *both* the AKC and UKC conformation rings.

As regards the " pitterstaffs" , it's a false and misleading term designed to cater to market forces. You're not coming up with something new by breeding the same genetic pool to the same genetic pool just registered under the auspices of a different registry.

Go to a UKC show , go to an AKC show you'll see the same phenotype of dog , you'll just be minus the red-noses at an AKC show.

I find it rather odd that folks crossed the UKC/AKC lines for years..........never called 'em " pitterstaffs " until the puppypeddling scum got involved.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Sarah~ said:


> I'm wrong again ^_^; Yeah that's what they were saying happened, the changing coat patterns and floppy ears.


I wasn't trying to point out explicitly that you were wrong. I was just recently reading about this though and I do find it fascinating how closely the genetics of behavior and appearance are linked.

And I misspoke somewhat. The aforementioned experiment lasted forty years so it was probably more than a few generations that it took for the phenotypes to change noticeably.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Carriana said:


> I wasn't trying to point out explicitly that you were wrong. I was just recently reading about this though and I do find it fascinating how closely linked the genetics of behavior and appearance are linked.
> 
> And I misspoke somewhat. The aforementioned experiment lasted forty years so it was probably more than a few generations that it took for the phenotypes to change noticeably.


Oh I know you weren't doing that. Just ragging on myself a little bit for not remembering the experiment correctly. And yeah, it did take them a long time since they were only using the foxes. I wonder if a dog could breed with a fox? Would it come out like a wolf hybrid, half wild, if they could mate and have puppies?


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