# What Has The Breed Become?



## AmericanSuperDog (Jan 18, 2011)

What has the breed become? Is it merely a shell of what it once was? I read the posts and I see division between those that wish to argue that the Pit Bull and Am Staff are not the same breed. I see people that say that the Am Staff is a show dog where the Pit is a sporting breed and this somehow defines them as a different breed. Yet my eyes show me something entirely different. Of all the talk that the Pit is sport and the Am Staff is show it all seems to be just talk. From many years of experience in the breed I now see local clubs failing due to lack of participation, fewer sporting opportunities being made available by the clubs barely holding on and where such opportunities do exists less than 1% of owners attend shows and less than 5% of those that attend actually take part in sporting events.

Sure those that go to shows participate in Conformation but where is the value in this event when they have become so politically motivated that often times they do not reflect the quality of the dog being represented but more about who you know? If the Pit Bull is about sport and the Am Staff about show can it not be argued that these glorified politically motivated beauty contests are in fact, when offered by themselves, leading to the demise of the Pit Bull version of the breed if the other 95% of the owners at the shows are not also taking part in some type of sporting event? And what value really is an award in Conformation even when it is won in a non-bias fashion when the dog that wins is really the only dog entered into its Conformation grouping? Should such a dog win simply because it is entered and if so what does this really say about Conformation? As a child I won every race where I was the only one running yet this never made me a pro-athlete nor did it attest to my abilities at running, my conditioning, style, form or technique. Was Colby right when he said that time will erase the breed in terms of ability and that it will at some point just be a shell of what it once was? From all indications this seems to be so.

So whose fault is it that the breed has come to this point? Is it the registries for failing to promote and sanction more events to highlight the skills of the breed? Sure people can argue the point that fighting is not legal and can fall on the tired argument that the only way to really game test is through the fighting pit. Is this not however just a copout or is this reflective of just how little imagination the world and registries have when it comes to testing the drive, determination and don't give up attitude that are really at the heart of the term "game".

Is it the fault of local clubs who have failed to market themselves well enough to pull in more members? Who have failed to offer more opportunities of sporting events despite registries lack of sanctioning these? Who have failed to educate their members in the activities available? Who perpetuate a fear of failure by not embracing more participation through training?

Is it the fault of owners? As a society have we really just become so lazy that the dogs we own are merely just a reflection of ourselves? Has it come to a point where the only satisfaction we can get as owners is by trash talking others who also love the breed. Have we become so divided on things like color, registry affiliation, pedigrees, or the difference between Pits and Am Staffs that we have caused a situation where all feel slighted to some degree and thus few want to participate in activities for fear of judgment?

Now on the other side I see the Am Staff. The supposed show dog and admittedly I do not see many active in this class either but what I do see according to the argument that the Pit is sport and Am Staff is show that the opposite seems to be more the reality. I see champion Am Staffs in Shutzhund, Agility, Weight Pull, Dock Diving and many other sporting events. If these are truly the exceptions then one has to ponder why are the exceptions outshining what is supposed to be the norm for the Pit Bull?

I happen to love the breed regardless of whether you choose to call it a Pit Bull or Am Staff. I have dedicated much of my life to its positive promotion, educating people on the illogical nature of breed specific legislation, helped train in Service Dog work for the breed and supported unity as opposed to divide, which in away sadly seems to be one of the few points, which draws owners together. In my dedication to the breed I have been an active promoter and have expanded my writing and marketing skills into the development of American Super Dog a TV series in the first stages of production.

In wrapping up this post the final and most important questions are where is your role in the breed? Are you going to be the fad owner or does the breed really own you at heart? Do you wish to see the breed in its full glory or is the shell alone good enough? When you talk about the ability is this based on the perception of ability simply because of the name or is it something you can back up with proof?

If your Pit Bull / Am Staff has what it takes to bring substantive honor and true prestige to the name I implore you to help us show this to the world, foster unity instead of divide and to submit evidence of this by uploading your videos for consideration in our TV series to American Super Dog. We are looking for all manner of positive video but especially are encouraging that of a sporting and training nature. If you are a trainer upload a short video on training and let us know and we will also include a free banner for you on the site as a resource for others.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

:goodpost: I came here to learn about the APBT not knowing that I actually have an American bully. I'm still very confused on that whole subject and am just taking it all in to be educated. So where do the bullies fall into the whole apbt/pit bull category? Every time I am approached by a person I am asked if I have a pit bull and when I say American bully I get a funny look by people. I'm just going to sit back and listen and learn to this topic because I'm sure it is going to hit a few nerves


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

The APBT/AmStaff argument has been around most likely since the AmStaff began.

The American Bully is in the American Bully category. If you had a Chesapeake Bay Retriever and someone asked if it was a lab and you told them no it's a Chesapeake Bay Retriever they would give you a funny look too. Just because most people only know like 5 to 10 dog breeds.

I think we just need to stick together as DOG owners and stop trying to compare separate breeds together.

I may upload a video for you after I check out the site.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

NO.. well you make a luke warm point; but its luke warm....... 

Compare ADBA, UKC, and AKC.. then get back at me.. LOL with what your eyes see. Howard Heinzl said it best  As did Louis P. Colby. 

function dog vs show dog there is a big difference .. the function dog is proven sound .. the show dog racks up HA bite stats only destroying the name and the REAL dog from which it came =D


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Firehazard said:


> function dog vs show dog there is a big difference .. the function dog is proven sound .. the show dog racks up HA bite stats only destroying the name and the REAL dog from which it came =D


No Sorry but thats not how it works LMAO.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:rofl: aint it S !


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## AmericanSuperDog (Jan 18, 2011)

I see we are getting a little off track. Please let us stick to the original intent of the post by addressing issues within it.

Th Am Bully is quasi related in that it is a point of divide. This is due primarily to the name change given to the Pit Bull by the ABKC, who registers all Pits as Am Bully. This is similar to what the AKC did with the Pit Bull by changing its name in their registry to the Am Staff. 

Once again I however stress these are points of divide and the point of the post was not to divide but for introspection, a call to action to prove the working ability of the breed (if it still exists) and to determine why it has become what it seems to have become over the past several years.

For people who wish to respond to the post please do so by answering questions from the post. After giving an answer please feel free to elaborate on why you have given the answer you give. 

Also if we are going to quote people let us provide sources so these can be verified such as book, page number, etc. If we are going to be stating things as fact let us provide links or book sources and if things are opinions let this be known.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

AmericanSuperDog said:


> I see we are getting a little off track. Please let us stick to the original intent of the post by addressing issues within it.
> 
> Th Am Bully is quasi related in that it is a point of divide. This is due primarily to the name change given to the Pit Bull by the ABKC, who registers all Pits as Am Bully. This is similar to what the AKC did with the Pit Bull by changing its name in their registry to the Am Staff.


People are not required to meet your outline to respond.

You are also wrong here. ABKC does not register Pit Bulls they register American Bullies. These are not Pit Bulls under another name, they are a completely separate breed of dog.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

quasi's but.
A pit is a pit,bred pit to be pit.
bully is crossed,mixed and conjured.please,do not compare a dog breed to A pseudo breed of A specific breed.


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## Padlock (Nov 19, 2010)

god i love you guys...tough crowd, but man oh man
do some of us know bulldogs.


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## LoudMouf (Feb 2, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> People are not required to meet your outline to respond.
> 
> You are also wrong here. ABKC does not register Pit Bulls they register American Bullies. These are not Pit Bulls under another name, they are a completely separate breed of dog.


Actually your somewhat incorrect, ideally I agree with you that only dogs that have American Bully breed type SHOULD be registered with the ABKC at the current time if your dog is registered with the UKC as an APBT it is 'CAN' be registered with the ABKC as an American Bully. It does not have to be inspected by anyone at the ABKC, although I honestly believe it should be.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

As funny as these shenanigans have been, I feel compelled to address the original topic. The OP fears that the APBT has become a shell of it's former self and in all honesty, if his/her only experience of them has been at UKC conformation shows and activities like dock diving or agility then maybe I can see their point. 

The chances of seeing animals that truly embody the true ancestry of the breed are less likely to be paraded around there than at other less readily accessible events (notable exceptions like Performance Kennels Lisa's dogs spring to mind however). In short, the real APBT is still alive and well, it's just not in the public arena as much.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

So here it goes. As i know this will be against popular opinions on this forum. I am going to just say. I see where the op is coming from. They never stated that the Am staff is the better sportsman of the breeds, just that it partakes in more activities. I the apbt is so superior to the amstaff why do they sit one the side lines.

I have said this before. IMPO the decline of the true APBT is most likely not going to come from show lines taking over and contaminating the breed. But from the die hard old style thinking of dogmen that will have nothing to do with people. I understand that the dog is not the breed for every one, but the people that have the truest dog out there should welcome people who want to learn and be active with these dogs. not just other people who will hide in the dark and hide their dogs. How is any one out there going to know how amazing the APBT is if they never see them. I have been in the breed for a little while and have been talking to a great supporters of our breed, and i still feel like man what do you have to do to get some of these people to realize I just want to know what they know and see the great dogs they have seen. So why not be more active as breed remodels? 

That is my take on what the Op was asking.


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## Pitbull Palace (Feb 5, 2011)

QUOTE=aimee235;405285]The APBT/AmStaff argument has been around most likely since the AmStaff began.

The American Bully is in the American Bully category. If you had a Chesapeake Bay Retriever and someone asked if it was a lab and you told them no it's a Chesapeake Bay Retriever they would give you a funny look too. Just because most people only know like 5 to 10 dog breeds.

I think we just need to stick together as DOG owners and stop trying to compare separate breeds together.

I may upload a video for you after I check out the site.[/QUOTE]

:goodpost:


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## Pitbull Palace (Feb 5, 2011)

LoudMouf said:


> Actually your somewhat incorrect, ideally I agree with you that only dogs that have American Bully breed type SHOULD be registered with the ABKC at the current time if your dog is registered with the UKC as an APBT it is 'CAN' be registered with the ABKC as an American Bully. It does not have to be inspected by anyone at the ABKC, although I honestly believe it should be.


Correct, I Just Inquired about all of this having a UKC Registered A-Pitbull that is a Razor's Edge/ Gotti/Watchdog/Greyline.. HAHAHAHAHA :roll:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Rudy4747 said:


> So here it goes. As i know this will be against popular opinions on this forum. I am going to just say. I see where the op is coming from. They never stated that the Am staff is the better sportsman of the breeds, just that it partakes in more activities. I the apbt is so superior to the amstaff why do they sit one the side lines.
> 
> I have said this before. IMPO the decline of the true APBT is most likely not going to come from show lines taking over and contaminating the breed. But from the die hard old style thinking of dogmen that will have nothing to do with people. I understand that the dog is not the breed for every one, but the people that have the truest dog out there should welcome people who want to learn and be active with these dogs. not just other people who will hide in the dark and hide their dogs. How is any one out there going to know how amazing the APBT is if they never see them. I have been in the breed for a little while and have been talking to a great supporters of our breed, and i still feel like man what do you have to do to get some of these people to realize I just want to know what they know and see the great dogs they have seen. So why not be more active as breed remodels?
> 
> That is my take on what the Op was asking.


:goodpost: I used to be just like that, for the most part... keeping my stock to myself and although I still will practice similar ethics, wont be so hermit like.. LOL some just not so much up:


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

LoudMouf said:


> Actually your somewhat incorrect, ideally I agree with you that only dogs that have American Bully breed type SHOULD be registered with the ABKC at the current time if your dog is registered with the UKC as an APBT it is 'CAN' be registered with the ABKC as an American Bully. It does not have to be inspected by anyone at the ABKC, although I honestly believe it should be.


They are still not registering pitbulls. They are registering American Bullies under the name they belong under as the breed they are.

They are not APBT in the UKC and then becoming a different breed when registered to the ABKC. They are American Bullies wrongly registered as APBT getting registered in the ABKC as the breed they are. Once the split is final I am sure that will stop.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:goodpost:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

American_Pit13 said:


> They are still not registering pitbulls. They are registering American Bullies under the name they belong under as the breed they are.
> 
> They are not APBT in the UKC and then becoming a different breed when registered to the ABKC. They are American Bullies wrongly registered as APBT getting registered in the ABKC as the breed they are. Once the split is final I am sure that will stop.


:goodpost:


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## LoudMouf (Feb 2, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> They are still not registering pitbulls. They are registering American Bullies under the name they belong under as the breed they are.
> 
> They are not APBT in the UKC and then becoming a different breed when registered to the ABKC. They are American Bullies wrongly registered as APBT getting registered in the ABKC as the breed they are. Once the split is final I am sure that will stop.


That's not totally true, because ANY UKC registered APBT can be registered with the ABKC as an American Bully. NOT just AmBully bloodline dogs. I think that it is totally wrong because not every dog from the UKC is an American Bully, but on the flipside of the coin not every Razors Edge or Gottiline dog is bred to be an American Bully. I agree that once they close the open registration period and it takes the inspection proccess to be recognized it will make everything easier.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

LoudMouf said:


> That's not totally true, because ANY UKC registered APBT can be registered with the ABKC as an American Bully. NOT just AmBully bloodline dogs. I think that it is totally wrong because not every dog from the UKC is an American Bully, but on the flipside of the coin not every Razors Edge or Gottiline dog is bred to be an American Bully. I agree that once they close the open registration period and it takes the inspection proccess to be recognized it will make everything easier.


Agreed. I think it will be a big step forward for both sides of the fence.


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## AmericanSuperDog (Jan 18, 2011)

Can't really respond to everyone but I would like to thank every serious individual for posting whether in agreement or not. I however would like to address a couple.



American_Pit13 said:


> People are not required to meet your outline to respond.
> 
> You are also wrong here. ABKC does not register Pit Bulls they register American Bullies. These are not Pit Bulls under another name, they are a completely separate breed of dog.


Really? Not according to the ABKC. I think that is a dangerous road to go down to say just because a registry registers a breed but changes its name that it is now a different breed. According to them they will take any Pit Bull and register it as an Am Bully. Under your logic due to the ABKC's actions alone one could then say all Pit Bulls are Am Bully. This is part of the divide that I was speaking of in the original post.

"Q: What is the American Bully?
A: All dogs currently registered as either American Pit Bull Terriers or American Staffordshire Terriers will be registered with us as an American Bully." - http://theabkcdogs.org/registration

In regards to people staying on point I would think this is simply etiquette. Otherwise people can post anything about anything in any post and it is easy to loose track of where the real conversation is. Why then even have a title to a post?



Firehazard said:


> You quoted Colby, but you didn't like a quote of his quote being thrown back at you?
> 
> I carefully analyzed your post and your poking at APBTs and obviously dont know game dog breeders or many in the ADBA world or your statement couldn't hold water. Am Staff being used as a slang term to hide their dog is an APBT doesnt count either. You didn't mention bully once in your original post; Stay on the original topic at hand... buahhahahahaha; follow your own advice.
> 
> I will give you credit for pointing out the clubs and organizations and the confusion in their efforts; to put it lightly.. Once again, if you were speakin on bullies then you should have done so before your retort. BEFORE you start teaching folks you should take time to :flush:


I do not mind throwing quotes. I just would like it sourced so everyone can verify if it is really a quote or if it is one's own words they have placed in the mouth of another to gain undeserved credit. Not pointing a finger at you but merely saying this is a problem in forums in general. I am guilty I guess too but will post direct sources in the future. Maybe I was misunderstanding the following statement of your post as a part of what your claim to a Colby's quote was and it was not. "the show dog racks up HA bite stats only destroying the name and the REAL dog from which it came " Maybe I overlooked that quote on Colby's part or simply forgot it. Was this a misunderstanding on my part?

Some may take my original post to mean bully since I did discuss the division between owners in my statement "supported unity as opposed to divide", which is why I addressed the Bully post and said it was quasi related. Putting your personal opinions aside as to whether the Am Bully is really Pit or related can anyone deny the topic itself creates divide? If so please see the top part of the post and the ABKC designation in registration, which I did provide a link for to help establish my point.

On the point about game dog breeders I have no doubt they are out there. I see however many people talking game and no evidence to back up their statements and when it comes to shows a very small minority of the dogs participating in the sporting components. My opinion is that most who talk about their dog being game are doing so to build their own ego. And many of those who point to the difference in Pit Bull and Am Staff being their sport vs. show nature do so also to support their ego. Every back ally breeder out there who is not really invested in the breed talking junk just to sell a pup to boost the next guy's ego. If the sport vs. show argument has validity I would like to see more proof than talk. You have been around long enough what percentage of those that talk game do you feel really have experience? What percentage do you see that are talking are really doing anything? I certainly do not support fighting but in my opinion I would think that for some that claim pride would also seek alternative ways of justifying their claim since fighting is illegal. This is in part why I questioned if there was a lack of imagination of registries and clubs to provide alternatives.


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

The APBT is a working dog, something that you have outlayed in your posts, you wont find many in the agility comps ect besides a few, and they generally do well in every task. What you do see is them being used for a specific purpose, ie pig hunting. A very high percentage of Australian pig dogs are apbt. They are also used for other forms of game hunting. If you look into sports that are suited to the APBT ie weightpulling, you will find a decent percentage of APBT in these events. 

In favour of the Bully crowd, there is nothing wrong with them starting their own registry that will seperate them from the other two, for the most part the people whom are moving forward with what they all want is a name of their own, and the APBT crowd dont think they should call their dogs APBT. 
Every new breed has got to start it somewhere, and a regulated registry is the best start.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

AmericanSuperDog said:


> Can't really respond to everyone but I would like to thank every serious individual for posting whether in agreement or not. I however would like to address a couple.
> 
> Really? Not according to the ABKC. I think that is a dangerous road to go down to say just because a registry registers a breed but changes its name that it is now a different breed. According to them they will take any Pit Bull and register it as an Am Bully. Under your logic due to the ABKC's actions alone one could then say all Pit Bulls are Am Bully. This is part of the divide that I was speaking of in the original post.
> 
> ...


:rofl: That wasnt COLBYs quote; I never typed it on this forum becuase I am ALWAYS TYPING IT.. 
Colby said: " I call em bulldog cause thats what they are."

Heinzl said: "Once we start breeding the APBT for looks we might as well call them ASTs as that is surely what they'll be"

THOSE ARE THE QUOTES THAT I HAVE POSTED SO MANY TIMES ON THIS FORUM THAT IF AN APBT PERSON HERE, HAS NEVER HEARD THEM, THEY SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST READ THEM IN MY POSTS.

^^^ I am sorry, I wrongly assumed because your trying to teach folks you already knew of the quotes I was touching on; apparently NOT. :rofl:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

AmericanSuperDog said:


> What has the breed become? Is it merely a shell of what it once was? I read the posts and I see division between those that wish to argue that the *Pit Bull and Am Staff* are not the same breed. I see people that say that the *Am Staff *is a show dog where the Pit is a sporting breed and this somehow defines them as a different breed. Yet my eyes show me something entirely different. Of all the talk that the *Pit* is sport and the *Am Staff* is show it all seems to be just talk. From many years of experience in the breed I now see local clubs failing due to lack of participation, fewer sporting opportunities being made available by the clubs barely holding on and where such opportunities do exists less than 1% of owners attend shows and less than 5% of those that attend actually take part in sporting events.
> 
> Sure those that go to shows participate in Conformation but where is the value in this event when they have become so politically motivated that often times they do not reflect the quality of the dog being represented but more about who you know? If the *Pit B*ull is about sport and the Am Staff about show can it not be argued that these glorified politically motivated beauty contests are in fact, when offered by themselves, leading to the demise of the Pit Bull version of the breed if the other 95% of the owners at the shows are not also taking part in some type of sporting event? And what value really is an award in Conformation even when it is won in a non-bias fashion when the dog that wins is really the only dog entered into its Conformation grouping? Should such a dog win simply because it is entered and if so what does this really say about Conformation? As a child I won every race where I was the only one running yet this never made me a pro-athlete nor did it attest to my abilities at running, my conditioning, style, form or technique. Was Colby right when he said that time will erase the breed in terms of ability and that it will at some point just be a shell of what it once was? From all indications this seems to be so.
> 
> ...


:rofl: Where do YOU mention BULLY???? or the ABKC???


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

LoudMouf said:


> That's not totally true, because ANY UKC registered APBT can be registered with the ABKC as an American Bully.


now why would someone take 2 steps backwards?
one being UKC,the other ABCK?ABCK,that is where folks register mixed breeds,then when they advertise them for sale they call them "pit bull".
I'm not much big for talkin about bullies,yet when folks do things that atrosciously dismanmtle the framework of the best breed runnin,hoggin,scrappin,lovin,pullin and swimmin,I get my panties bunched.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Because you have to have a controlled environment  with the [] to prove your hypothesis...

I took game bred dogs and created a game test using them to hunt predators; also to handle a hog one on one... but it did not create the APBT it created a Bearbiter; able to run miles on end through mts, and cathch and kill various predators, and wild hogs; all game lines from a proven source, there are ppl who do the [] test with a killer hog vs their dog. IMO this has been closest to to the real thing and does more to prove APBTs than a test designed to catch and kill wild game.. The [] is the controlled environment. 
Its not illegal everywhere and the dog is dubbed American because here in the USA we coined the game dog and made it better..

YOU NEED TO GET OUT!!!! See some REAL dogs... Because the only time I see dogs that arent game dogs is when I mingle with muggles... LOL seriously though; ADBA dogs are the real APBT and the APBT is the REAL bulldog. You didnt mention anything about Bully until your 2nd post, your first post was poking at APBTs and ppl who use the term "game."


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

LoudMouf said:


> That's not totally true, because ANY UKC registered APBT can be registered with the ABKC as an American Bully. NOT just AmBully bloodline dogs. I think that it is totally wrong because not every dog from the UKC is an American Bully, .


Well there ya go.Now you know how apbt people feel when people register their bullies as apbt's in the adba and ukc


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

dixieland said:


> Well there ya go.Now you know how apbt people feel when people register their bullies as apbt's in the adba and ukc


Let me clarify a little.I know you are not one of those people,as well as a lot of other bully owners.Y'all are trying to move in the right direction.And I applaud that.
But I think all bully bloodlines need to be in the ABKC.And that includes any and all early strains still out there from the early RE stock.Even if it still conforms to what a AST is,it is now a bully line and needs to be treated as such.It will only further confuse people if there are some registered as American Bully and then some as still Amstaff or apbt.
Just as apbt blood needs to registered as such and the same with AST.But then isn't there still certain lines that are both found in bullies and amstaff's?For example,isn't the Gaff line in both some present day bullies as well as AST's? 
IDK I'm confusing myself thinking about it.It's all one big cluster**** if you ask me.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Theres no way you can get a bully bred dog confused with an ADBA style dog unless of course those ADBA papers say WHOPPER, GOTT/GREYLINE GOTTI/RE, WATCHDOG, .. LOL sure there are a few more Im missing but you get the drift don't you? Hell PK you work these dogs for what they're for and you know what I speak of first hand, yeah those dogs can work; game bred dogs raise the bar of work to a whole other level. I will agree good dogs are where you find em. I have notice quite a few Amstaffs I would use and HAVE inducted a Lighterbred AmStaff in my old now retired stock. Turk has all thats left of those dogs I had back when I was in private peds.. Unless they started breeding by old [] standards they couldn't consistanly be the same dogs as APBTs and as far as UKC stock goes, well other than those guys that obviously stayed to the game style dog had dogs in UKC/ADBA dually thats why the ADBA was designed.. Ironic.. The UKC the first registery in USA was designed for the APBT which was just a bulldog, yankee terrier, pit bulldog, pit terrier, a dog by any other name until PROVEN then it was REGISTERED as an APBT.. THEN because of Federal Legislature, they changed they're stance--- legistlature can be fought and won as we all know especially by old organizations so WTF? ADBA keeps game style dogs of prey while others do what they do and cross in out because: EVERYONE WANTS THAT LIL STICK OF DYNAMITE,BUT NO ONE WANTS TO DEAL WITH SWEATING NITRO~(FH) So of course the game dog is needed as ALWAYS HAS BEEN THROUGHOUT TIME to add DRIVE to a breed or STRAIN of dog rather. LOL

How is the ADBA on the BACK BURNER? THATs exactly why they are letting in other breeds, alot of ppl are against this. ADBA cannot compete with UKC and AKC in national canine education until its universally KNOWN and accepted.. Someone said in another post animosity would be our (dogmen/women) downfall or the downfall of the REAL APBT because its hidden and kept secret.. SOME real truth to that.. Especially when almost everyone who reads and understand the Cajun Rules.. "oh like a boxing match" is said 99.9% of the time; SO education is the key and dogs bred down from game bred APBTs and from registered APBTs are not APBTs they are a STRAIN of dog until proven to be a distinct breed cause they can't [] and I know my dogs can because they're parents or grandparents are proven dogs, and THEY NEED TO to protect my family from the critters that lurk. Game bred dogs get a the job done that no other dog can do faster and happier too! THANK GOD we have the FREE MARKET! GOD BLESS THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF THE AMERICA!!

Didnt we have a AKC vs UKC vs ADBA thread? THat should be is own forum for all of this back and forth that is not going anywhere fast in debate. So We should mass all the dialogue and debates of the context at hand under one.


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## LoudMouf (Feb 2, 2011)

william williamson said:


> now why would someone take 2 steps backwards?
> one being UKC,the other ABCK?ABCK,that is where folks register mixed breeds,then when they advertise them for sale they call them "pit bull".
> I'm not much big for talkin about bullies,yet when folks do things that atrosciously dismanmtle the framework of the best breed runnin,hoggin,scrappin,lovin,pullin and swimmin,I get my panties bunched.


I wouldn't glorify the ADBA much either because it is my understanding they accept UKC AND AKC registration to register your dog as an APBT with the ADBA. So I wouldn't put them too high on a pedistal because they are just as much of the problem as any of the other registries we are talking about.



dixieland said:


> Well there ya go.Now you know how apbt people feel when people register their bullies as apbt's in the adba and ukc


Oh I have no doubt why some people get upset that obvious American Bullies get called APBT by unknowledgeable breeders/owners. But as I already stated not everyone who used a "bully" line in their breeding program means their intent or outcome was to produce American Bullies. You used the example of the Gaff line, Pam Gaffney (also known as Pam Carter) never intended to produce American Bullies, yes so of her APBTs and Amstaffs are on the larger size that other breeders utilized to create American Bullies does not mean her line IS an American Bully bloodline.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

LoudMouf said:


> I wouldn't glorify the ADBA much either because it is my understanding they accept UKC AND AKC registration to register your dog as an APBT with the ADBA. So I wouldn't put them too high on a pedistal because they are just as much of the problem as any of the other registries we are talking about.


they may well do so. back in the day though,ADBA was about game and game bred.
regadless,whenever I get another pit,it'll have been from A dog or line thats been "on the road".I just can't house something thats got kool aid for blood.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Dave Wilson was doin his thing while Pam Gaffney Carter was doing hers; she did have the same classic bully type dogs as Wilson; so it was just that, that brought the gaff line into the "bully" crowd. Pam had her dogs before I ever heard of Bully as a strain, line, or a breed but as soon as Bully became a craze to be had, Gaff was bully.. LOL There are a benedict dog or two that fit this bill and a few appleheads as well. LOL But to be an APBT ya gotta be game bred, and most of that stock is ADBA.. OF COURSE .. WE ADBA dog men use AKC Ruffian, tacoma, etc and UKC OFRN, & APBTs in the ADBA we could use blood we aint played with in a good long while  that stuff just provides a good outcross to the right breeder. ADBA game stock will straighten all that up as long as ethics include culling HA and other bad traits. 

you will intentionally have to ignore the adba gamebred dogs to find more ADBA APBTs that are not gamebred than those that are... In all reality there are game bred APBTs in the UKC/ADBA/AKC all 3 why?? cause they all started with game dogs and people decided not to breed for game to breed for looks only, thats why the ADBA dogs are unique and hold true for the most part except those lines we all know are not GAME bred dogs posing as APBTs in the ADBA, LOL.. I glorify the dogs that are in the ADBA not the ADBA, Id glorify the dogs in AKC or UKC but I cannot for they are not the working dogs I have found in ADBA and UKC/ADBA stock (the old dogs that hand down dual registery with each litter since pre 60's.)


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## LoudMouf (Feb 2, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Dave Wilson was doin his thing while Pam Gaffney Carter was doing hers; she did have the same classic bully type dogs as Wilson; so it was just that, that brought the gaff line into the "bully" crowd. Pam had her dogs before I ever heard of Bully as a strain, line, or a breed but as soon as Bully became a craze to be had, Gaff was bully.. LOL There are a benedict dog or two that fit this bill and a few appleheads as well. LOL But to be an APBT ya gotta be game bred, and most of that stock is ADBA.. OF COURSE .. WE ADBA dog men use AKC Ruffian, tacoma, etc and UKC OFRN, & APBTs in the ADBA we could use blood we aint played with in a good long while  that stuff just provides a good outcross to the right breeder. ADBA game stock will straighten all that up as long as ethics include culling HA and other bad traits.
> 
> you will intentionally have to ignore the adba gamebred dogs to find more ADBA APBTs that are not gamebred than those that are... In all reality there are game bred APBTs in the UKC/ADBA/AKC all 3 why?? cause they all started with game dogs and people decided not to breed for game to breed for looks only, thats why the ADBA dogs are unique and hold true for the most part except those lines we all know are not GAME bred dogs posing as APBTs in the ADBA, LOL.. I glorify the dogs that are in the ADBA not the ADBA, Id glorify the dogs in AKC or UKC but I cannot for they are not the working dogs I have found in ADBA and UKC/ADBA stock (the old dogs that hand down dual registery with each litter since pre 60's.)


I am going to be the first to disagree with you on the Gaff Kennels being a bully line because I went to Pam's house when she was in California. The "bully" dogs were the ones she gave away and sold to other people who mostly took those dogs to Razors Edge and other "bullier" lines and created some of the American Bully foundation dogs. From my conversations with Pam, I can tell you it was never he intention to make anything close to an American Bully.

As for the working dog v. show dog argument, I am not going to touch on it because it's a never ending argument. All working breeds debate this all the time, and depending on what side of the fence you are on usually determines your point of view.


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Every one of those registries mentioned has its "ok" points and then their bad points to go with it. 
Registry certainly doesnt make the dog or stipulates what breed or cross strain it realy is. 
I have had dogs from reputable registries and from not so reputable registries, down here there are a few different ones to choose from and people have good and bad to say about them all. 
I have had and seen more more dogs from the old NZ reg and the GDBR that were and still are ten times the APBT than any ADBA, UKC,AKC dogs ive seen.

I understand its different due to geographics, but down here when i see ADBA dogs advertised i stereotypically think of a greenhorn who has read a couple of stratton books and ran out and bought the first registered APBT they could find and has whelped a litter because twenty years back it had the word JEEP on a bit of paper once or twice.


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## LoudMouf (Feb 2, 2011)

junkyard said:


> Every one of those registries mentioned has its "ok" points and then their bad points to go with it.
> Registry certainly doesnt make the dog or stipulates what breed or cross strain it realy is.
> I have had dogs from reputable registries and from not so reputable registries, down here there are a few different ones to choose from and people have good and bad to say about them all.
> I have had and seen more more dogs from the old NZ reg and the GDBR that were and still are ten times the APBT than any ADBA, UKC,AKC dogs ive seen.
> ...


I absolutely agree! No matter what registry or bloodline you are always going to get people who are advertising their dogs as one thing when they are not. Hell from my perspective, I see hundreds of dogs in local papers that are advertised as "Razors Edge" "bully pits" "Gotti" because somehow they believe these terms merit more worth for their pups. The pups themself may have one Razors Edge dog six or seven generations back in the pedigree. I believe the same truths apply to all registries, buyers assume because a dog is registered with a particular registry it is breeding quality, which in alot of cases is not correct.


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Take into account aswell, most of us APBT owners regarless of where we are are on the border of being to afraid to expose ourselves or our animals on being seized due to some bullshit laws. Back a few years ago after our national club closed down the only place i could enter the dogs into any wp events were sled dog clubs. I attended the local club and our business even sponsered the a couple of events for them. At first they were very welcoming and open, it was also pleasant to be around a bunch of people whom were not bothered with DA dogs as their breeds also displayed a bit.
What they did not like however was a dog of 16.5kgs smashing everydog in its class and beating breeds that have been some sort of pulling working breed. How dare a pit bulldog beat a husky at his own game. After three meetings [two of which i sponsered] i was politely told that my dogs were illegal because they were unaltered and as that is against the law for that council for the APBT i could no longer compete.
I would rather hide in the shadows and have them live than expose them and get them seized just to prove a point to people that dont matter to me anyway.

Truth is i dont want my breed splashed all over some tv show to simply "show the world they are not monsters" or what ever the point of this may be.
The last thing this breed needs is another fad of tree hugging morons whom get the idea that this breed is for everyone, that little fad got us into the position we are in now with a world of byb blue mutts and spiked collars, along with a small % of street level match thugs, and bullshit stories of bait dogs and matching dogs in boots of cars.
What i want for the dogs is to help the people who have maybee gone into it a little too deep and need a point in the right direction. Besides that i want to be left alone and forget the APBT. As dumb as it sounds these days i am just waiting for some heathen breed like the bully cutta or of the likes to come and steal the limelight for twenty years and let us have our dogs.

We dont need some tv show showing APBT chasing frizbees around to show how smart or loyal they are , i allready know. And Personally anyone who doesnt know either shouldnt or wont be waivered from their current opinion of them anyways.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

junkyard said:


> Take into account aswell, most of us APBT owners regarless of where we are are on the border of being to afraid to expose ourselves or our animals on being seized due to some bullshit laws. Back a few years ago after our national club closed down the only place i could enter the dogs into any wp events were sled dog clubs. I attended the local club and our business even sponsered the a couple of events for them. At first they were very welcoming and open, it was also pleasant to be around a bunch of people whom were not bothered with DA dogs as their breeds also displayed a bit.
> What they did not like however was a dog of 16.5kgs smashing everydog in its class and beating breeds that have been some sort of pulling working breed. How dare a pit bulldog beat a husky at his own game. After three meetings [two of which i sponsered] i was politely told that my dogs were illegal because they were unaltered and as that is against the law for that council for the APBT i could no longer compete.
> I would rather hide in the shadows and have them live than expose them and get them seized just to prove a point to people that dont matter to me anyway.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:well said


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

junkyard said:


> Take into account aswell, most of us APBT owners regarless of where we are are on the border of being to afraid to expose ourselves or our animals on being seized due to some bullshit laws. Back a few years ago after our national club closed down the only place i could enter the dogs into any wp events were sled dog clubs. I attended the local club and our business even sponsered the a couple of events for them. At first they were very welcoming and open, it was also pleasant to be around a bunch of people whom were not bothered with DA dogs as their breeds also displayed a bit.
> What they did not like however was a dog of 16.5kgs smashing everydog in its class and beating breeds that have been some sort of pulling working breed. How dare a pit bulldog beat a husky at his own game. After three meetings [two of which i sponsered] i was politely told that my dogs were illegal because they were unaltered and as that is against the law for that council for the APBT i could no longer compete.
> I would rather hide in the shadows and have them live than expose them and get them seized just to prove a point to people that dont matter to me anyway.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: I agree with everything you said. I don't think we need some crazy rush for "real pit bulls" going on I know way to many people that think they want one but could not handle one. 
But I so really think think in 10-15 tears from now it will be so hard for younger people out there to ever have a chance to know the great breed. That they can only read about. And I find that sad. Because I truly feel like you can not go any where in the world and find a better dog.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

The division between show and sport has and will always be. The two ARE different but its that way with every breed. Show German Sheps vs working one, Huskies, ect.

Where the breed got perverted has to do alot with legality. In 1976 it became illegal to fight these dogs in a matched sporting event. This is largely what the breed had been developed for. They are fighting dogs, when that was taken away from the breed then by the very nature of survival, it altered the breed. People began owning these dogs that never would have owned them before. This led to people breeding them for purposes not originally sought after. This forever changes the breed. I dare say, bullies would not exist if dogfighting was still allowed. Why? Because the main focus of anyone who owned this breed would have been function. There do remain very true to nature APBT due to the fact that illegal activity will always exist. Those involved in such actions will continue to breed and hold to the standard for which it was created.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

junkyard said:


> Take into account aswell, most of us APBT owners regarless of where we are are on the border of being to afraid to expose ourselves or our animals on being seized due to some bullshit laws. Back a few years ago after our national club closed down the only place i could enter the dogs into any wp events were sled dog clubs. I attended the local club and our business even sponsered the a couple of events for them. At first they were very welcoming and open, it was also pleasant to be around a bunch of people whom were not bothered with DA dogs as their breeds also displayed a bit.
> What they did not like however was a dog of 16.5kgs smashing everydog in its class and beating breeds that have been some sort of pulling working breed. How dare a pit bulldog beat a husky at his own game. After three meetings [two of which i sponsered] i was politely told that my dogs were illegal because they were unaltered and as that is against the law for that council for the APBT i could no longer compete.
> I would rather hide in the shadows and have them live than expose them and get them seized just to prove a point to people that dont matter to me anyway.
> 
> ...


YES! That's the point I was trying to make but you put it much better.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

junkyard said:


> Take into account aswell, most of us APBT owners regarless of where we are are on the border of being to afraid to expose ourselves or our animals on being seized due to some bullshit laws. Back a few years ago after our national club closed down the only place i could enter the dogs into any wp events were sled dog clubs. I attended the local club and our business even sponsered the a couple of events for them. At first they were very welcoming and open, it was also pleasant to be around a bunch of people whom were not bothered with DA dogs as their breeds also displayed a bit.
> What they did not like however was a dog of 16.5kgs smashing everydog in its class and beating breeds that have been some sort of pulling working breed. How dare a pit bulldog beat a husky at his own game. After three meetings [two of which i sponsered] i was politely told that my dogs were illegal because they were unaltered and as that is against the law for that council for the APBT i could no longer compete.
> I would rather hide in the shadows and have them live than expose them and get them seized just to prove a point to people that dont matter to me anyway.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::clap:


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## Pitbull Palace (Feb 5, 2011)

OldFortKennels said:


> The division between show and sport has and will always be. The two ARE different but its that way with every breed. Show German Sheps vs working one, Huskies, ect.
> 
> Where the breed got perverted has to do alot with legality. In 1976 it became illegal to fight these dogs in a matched sporting event. This is largely what the breed had been developed for. They are fighting dogs, when that was taken away from the breed then by the very nature of survival, it altered the breed. People began owning these dogs that never would have owned them before. This led to people breeding them for purposes not originally sought after. This forever changes the breed. I dare say, bullies would not exist if dogfighting was still allowed. Why? Because the main focus of anyone who owned this breed would have been function. There do remain very true to nature APBT due to the fact that illegal activity will always exist. Those involved in such actions will continue to breed and hold to the standard for which it was created.


I like how you put that !!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

WAY to many post to read through, I just post my thoughts and go to the next one? Did you say the same thing? Maybe I will have to go back and check your post out!

edit post....ok read them....I agree with you. I tend to agree with you on most post


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## LoudMouf (Feb 2, 2011)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Loudmouf anyone and everyone has a right to post in a public forum.... I dont know you from the next guy but as someone who has just been reading your stuff and commenting very little on it.... It does seem you like to "be the first one to disagree" on just about anything....
> 
> I will be the first one to disagree with you when you RE was originally a "bullier" line.... Actually it was pretty freaking standard in its early days and still true to APBT standard (by anyones definition)... Over the years YES it has become one of the more solid foundations to the American Bully....


You are entitled to your own opinion, but what early days Razors Edge dogs would you be referring to? I can tell you from the beginning of Dave Wilson's breeding he was trying to make a dog that was carrying more mass and more substance, in fact I believe his slogan at the UKC shows was "Head and Chest above the Rest" meaning his dogs carried a bigger more defined head, and a more impressive amount of substance than the other bloodlines he was competing with. Now yes some of those dogs were still able to compete, and actually did well in the UKC but it has been argued by many show breeders that even the original Razors Edge dogs were lacking moderation and were overdone for the standard.


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## LoudMouf (Feb 2, 2011)

OldFortKennels said:


> *The division between show and sport has and will always be. The two ARE different but its that way with every breed. Show German Sheps vs working one, Huskies, ect.*
> 
> Where the breed got perverted has to do alot with legality. In 1976 it became illegal to fight these dogs in a matched sporting event. This is largely what the breed had been developed for. They are fighting dogs, when that was taken away from the breed then by the very nature of survival, it altered the breed. People began owning these dogs that never would have owned them before. This led to people breeding them for purposes not originally sought after. This forever changes the breed. I dare say, bullies would not exist if dogfighting was still allowed. Why? Because the main focus of anyone who owned this breed would have been function. There do remain very true to nature APBT due to the fact that illegal activity will always exist. Those involved in such actions will continue to breed and hold to the standard for which it was created.


I absolutely agree 100% but to add on your comments, I believe people were already breeding away from the original purpose when the AKC established the AmStaff and truly began pushing the conformation road for the breed. Ultimately when it became illegal to pursue the original purpose of the breed, most breeders attempted to find legal outlets for the breed while some breeders have attempted to keep the breed an athletic breed. Some have disregarded it all together and turned their dogs into nothing more than a halter horse version of the original APBT. I don't know if I would say the American Bully would not exsist because there is alot of AKC Amstaff dogs incorporated into the make up of the American Bully, but I am sure it would definately be different.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> Those involved in such actions will continue to breed and hold to the standard for which it was created.


i've said it before,I'll say it again,i'll be paying these folks A visit when I get another pit.
I want a pit from hookin blood.ya know why?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I am going to give one warning.... Get back on topic and stay there or infraction will be given out. I understand where the Bully dogs fit in this topic but this is not a thread about bullies so please limit the bully talk as it pertains to the OP. You guys can argue without making it personal. You can also agree to disagree


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## AmericanSuperDog (Jan 18, 2011)

Keeping the post alive still looking for good input.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Rudy4747 said:


> I the apbt is so superior to the amstaff why do they sit one the side lines.


^This. :clap:

I know the APBT is the ultimate dog. Just waiting for people to step outside their own little circles and show the world. I've heard people say a lot that they wont go to such-and-such event because they hate losing to AmStaffs or other breeds. So they only do the events they think they can win, or they do nothing. To me that's boring. I have been disgusted by some of the dogs I've lost to, and have said so recently. But sitting home and not participating because you might lose to an AmStaff or a bully is just weak. Things will never change that way.


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## AmericanSuperDog (Jan 18, 2011)

That relates perfectly to my original post.



AmericanSuperDog said:


> So whose fault is it that the breed has come to this point? Is it the registries for failing to promote and sanction more events to highlight the skills of the breed? Sure people can argue the point that fighting is not legal and can fall on the tired argument that the only way to really game test is through the fighting pit. Is this not however just a copout or is this reflective of just how little imagination the world and registries have when it comes to testing the drive, determination and don't give up attitude that are really at the heart of the term "game".
> 
> Is it the fault of local clubs who have failed to market themselves well enough to pull in more members? Who have failed to offer more opportunities of sporting events despite registries lack of sanctioning these? Who have failed to educate their members in the activities available? Who perpetuate a fear of failure by not embracing more participation through training?
> 
> Is it the fault of owners? As a society have we really just become so lazy that the dogs we own are merely just a reflection of ourselves? Has it come to a point where the only satisfaction we can get as owners is by trash talking others who also love the breed. Have we become so divided on things like color, registry affiliation, pedigrees, or the difference between Pits and Am Staffs that we have caused a situation where all feel slighted to some degree and thus few want to participate in activities for fear of judgment?"


And



AmericanSuperDog said:


> Sure those that go to shows participate in Conformation but where is the value in this event when they have become so politically motivated that often times they do not reflect the quality of the dog being represented but more about who you know? If the Pit Bull is about sport and the Am Staff about show can it not be argued that these glorified politically motivated beauty contests are in fact, when offered by themselves, leading to the demise of the Pit Bull version of the breed if the other 95% of the owners at the shows are not also taking part in some type of sporting event? And what value really is an award in Conformation even when it is won in a non-bias fashion when the dog that wins is really the only dog entered into its Conformation grouping? Should such a dog win simply because it is entered and if so what does this really say about Conformation?


So where do you see the opportunity for change and improvement in a way that the community can help assure the working nature of the breed is not lost?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

AmericanSuperDog said:


> What has the breed become? Is it merely a shell of what it once was? I read the posts and I see division between those that wish to argue that the Pit Bull and Am Staff are not the same breed. I see people that say that the Am Staff is a show dog where the Pit is a sporting breed and this somehow defines them as a different breed. Yet my eyes show me something entirely different. Of all the talk that the Pit is sport and the Am Staff is show it all seems to be just talk. From many years of experience in the breed I now see local clubs failing due to lack of participation, fewer sporting opportunities being made available by the clubs barely holding on and where such opportunities do exists less than 1% of owners attend shows and less than 5% of those that attend actually take part in sporting events.
> 
> Sure those that go to shows participate in Conformation but where is the value in this event when they have become so politically motivated that often times they do not reflect the quality of the dog being represented but more about who you know? If the Pit Bull is about sport and the Am Staff about show can it not be argued that these glorified politically motivated beauty contests are in fact, when offered by themselves, leading to the demise of the Pit Bull version of the breed if the other 95% of the owners at the shows are not also taking part in some type of sporting event? And what value really is an award in Conformation even when it is won in a non-bias fashion when the dog that wins is really the only dog entered into its Conformation grouping? Should such a dog win simply because it is entered and if so what does this really say about Conformation? As a child I won every race where I was the only one running yet this never made me a pro-athlete nor did it attest to my abilities at running, my conditioning, style, form or technique. Was Colby right when he said that time will erase the breed in terms of ability and that it will at some point just be a shell of what it once was? From all indications this seems to be so.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^^^Your original post... ^^^^^ nothing on bullies gotta remind all those that dont know; bullies are not APBTs

I don't know what dogs your looking at; LOL APBTs will not lose to an AST if it does then its not an APBT.. APBTs are game period.. Louis P. Colby "the pit bull can whip any dog at what it was bred to do then whip em when its done"

Louis P Colby designed both dogs practically thats why Colby is in ADBA, AKC, and the oldest registery in the USA the UKC.

If your experience is showing you ASTs out performing APBTs then those arent REAL APBTs just look like it, as APBTs are bred for whats upstairs, and the game drive makes the dog go unitl its heart stops, there aint no givin up let alone the idea of can't.. LOL a game dog an APBT will surpass every dog at what it was bred to do then whip em when its done. OR If an AST is being bred for performance then one should check the ped, as many APBTs are also registered as ASTs in the AKC and are performance dogs but they are APBT first and foremost and registered as a dog by any other name.. 
APBT first then registered as AST from game dog stock follow your AST peds back.. I've shown several that are in all 3 registeries but my comments were removed. just follow colby, nebbletts, heinzl(who despised the AST) bloodlines and watch them divide in the 3 registeries and some are registered in all three.

The APBT is a performance, function dog; nothing less nothing more.. What one may percieve as a pit bull is not if it doesn't have proven parents, grand parents or great grandparents... REMINDER.. when the UKC first founded to be a registered American Pit Bull Terrier the dog had to have 2 wins against a winner, that was the RULES and GUIDE lines to even CREATE an American Pit Bull Terrier. Still used today in Mexico, Canada, Ukraine, Russia, Ecuador, Peru, Phillipines, (lets just say more countries allow matches than do not) So they have our stock have been importing our game dogs for a long while into their countries and using cajun rules to prove dogs. So the REAL APBT aka bulldog aka Pit Bull is there for the taking and with the proven history to build a fully functional machine on command; the only thing I ever seen a game dog naturally defend from a person was a child... Known as the nanny dog, Rascal and Petey were siblings and both used in the Lil Rascals of the 1940s and those bandages were from real wins, by two dogs who created some of the most devastating [] dogs and outstanding performance lines today. Whats funny is a good deal of dogs from Rascal and Petey are also pedigreed AST as well as others having AM bulldog registery papers.. SO I do not believe AST unless bred that way by crossing into game line APBT will out perform an APBT, they haven't in my world LOL coyote bait not coyote killers.. The only other way is by registering an APBT by any other name.. I see a GOOD deal of APBTs being called and stuck with AKC papers to get away from the Pit Bull stigma .. . LOL which is misdirected and as false as can be.. Propaganda to get people to lose interest in the APBT.. Any dog that can't wrangle a bull, run in and out 12 miles and kill 3 coyotes or catch a bear or boar hog and and immediately go and sit at the feet of your children pleased as punch, then it aint an APBT.



> FROM the same topic basically months ago..: Originally Posted by Firehazard
> DRIVE, is not GAME.. Game is when a dog is down and out and stands up to go the distance no matter what his quarry is, bull, hog, predator, or another dog. Mind YOU THAT A TRUE GAME BRED DOG LOVES TO SQUAB, BUT THE SOUND TEMP that DOG MEN love the quiet GAME dog w/ no alpha signals that waits for the impact before they turn on.. AT MOST~ the American Pit Bull Terrier is a "Dog of Prey", much like the Cade Bou of France. DRIVE is in many forms and all dogs w/ drive, KBD,GSD, DOBIE, etc etc. will BITE YOUR A$$! Game dogs aren't bred or ment to be PP. They just happen to be the breed that do anything better than anydog that was bred for that funciton, barr none... People are tenderfooted and sissyfied they want that lil' package of dynamite, but don't want to deal w/ sweating nitro.. LOL Does that make sense? IF YOU WANT A GAME DOG get a APBT if not THEN DONT.. AND PLEASE QUIT BREEDING FOR LOOKS, Game dogs are bred for MENTALITY the conformation that comes w/ it also just happens to be part of the package.. Look at NONE GAME BRED APBT ughh.. Compare them to game bred, who has the best mental and physical status? Compare see what you get?


Stick a fork in it; I'm done........ the truth has been proven and high end dog owners know the truth, this is just to much. :hammer: the APBT is Americas Super Dog  PeRiOd~ The game bred APBT is the worlds most sought after dog, that says it all.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

AmericanSuperDog said:


> So where do you see the opportunity for change and improvement in a way that the community can help assure the working nature of the breed is not lost?


Simply, people need to work their dogs. They need to work them in more than weight pull. They need to do sports that challenge the brain and not just the body. This is only my opinion and I'm sure a lot of people don't share it, but I think that the most breeding-quality dogs are multi-talented. They may not be going against other dogs anymore, but there's no reason they still can't be the premiere working breed.

How do we get people to work their dogs? I really don't know. But with most people, if we can get them "hooked," they keep coming back. I do the shows and working events because I enjoy it. It is self-fulfilling. Even when we encounter an epic fail and go home with nothing, I usually lick my wounds and come back again later. But I think some people don't even start up in the first place because they're afraid. They're intimidated by what can be a very complex environment. If we could encourage more people to be mentors to the n00bs of the dog world, I think that would be a big help.

The points you made about lack of entries and competition are something that every club right now struggles with. People bring their own competition to shows to avoid going home empty-handed when they're the only ones competing. And clubs are going belly-up because so many simply aren't hitting the shows. I think this is partially economic, which is not something we can address as simple dog fanciers. And for me, I've been burned a lot by very poor judging and its turned me away from conformation. Thankfully, at least in UKC, you cannot champion a dog out without beating at least some competition. Class wins when you're the only dog in that class wont get you there.

I think a lot of things that we want to see in the breed are not necessarily things which are tested hard in licensed competitions. Most sports don't work a dog to exhaustion, or test their pain tolerance. But they are what we have right now. I would say that we could use things like Search and Rescue or narcotics detection as tangible, useful ways in which we can test and improve the breed while also performing public services which can help us in the fight against BSL. But unfortunately there are so few APBTs doing these things that its not really a reliable gauge of breeding quality.

When I made reference to improvement, I meant in terms of improving the sport/show areas where people complain about losing to inferior dogs. The show ring, for example. People with standard, working- or gamebred-style dogs do not show in some venues because they lose to AmStaff-types. But if there is a ring full of only AmStaffs, its a no brainer to predict what will place. If there were more of the former, more of the former would win. Its like playing the lottery. If you don't buy a ticket, you have only yourself to blame if you don't win. It cuts the same for working sports.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

:goodpost:
What I see is when these dogs come through my Obed classes they tend to be high drive dog and more than the owner can handle. It takes a lot of time to over come the DA so you can do off leash sports and not all are skilled enough to nip that in the bud when they need to. Many owners start the dogs too late and really with DA high drive dogs they need to start young so you can addressed those issues.
I think the economy has a lot to do with it right now, show attendance is really down because of no work and/or gas prices. I had planned on traveling a lot this year but looking at the gas prices I might not be able to do what I wanted to do.

The "pitterstaffs" and politics has made it hard for true APBT's to show in UKC so there is reluctance from APBT owners to travel for conformation. Like Lindsay said you sometimes need to bring your own competition HOWEVER if you stack the decks in your favor to Ch out a dog how ethical is that really. When ppl do that they do not bring good competition they bring substandard dogs and when that happens if your new Ch really worth that title? This is why I do not like Conformation, it is just an opinion on how a dog looks vs how a dog works. I would rather go to a sport event vs just conformation.

It is just as bad on the ADBA side you get all these ppl who think that a true bulldog cannot be taught anything because they are so DA. They think they belong on chain setups to be tucked away like something illegal and only taken out to shows. This breed is so much more that than if given the chance but it takes work! I have mostly Game bred dogs and it a struggle when starting them out to get them to ignore instinct and ignore other dogs. They are still DA but they ignore other dogs when working. It is very hard to channel that off the wall drive and focus it on a sport. That is why you see more pitterstaffs, AST's, and med to low drive APBT's do dog sports, they are easier to work with.

With all this I still wish we could see more APBT's and pit bull type dogs doing something even if it is as simple as Rally or Obed.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:goodpost: I know I said I was done, but I had to read your :goodpost:

People in general dont need the APBT because it is to much for the general populous (IMO) of today with no willingness to learn or accountability of responsiblity of owning these high end dogs; like you said you can curve the prey drive to something else other than dogs; but I dont see the DA as a problem, thats the dog and its better than natural HA.. I love your work and your dogs Lisa, keep kickin ( Y ) !


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks FH but the DA is the problem for those who do not know how to deal with it! Even trainers who do not know what they are doing say you cannot do anything with a DA APBT they would just put a muzzle on it and stick it in the corner. I think this is a big reason we do not see more REAL APBT's in sports.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Well to be fair, not everybody stacking shows brings inferior dogs. Some people just bring what they have. 4 of the Matrix dogs (including my Terra) went to a UKC show this weekend. All finishable dogs, one of which is an ADBA GRCH. And I'm not sure what other class dogs were there but I'm glad that we sent 2 males and 2 females because it meant that nobody was going to be sad when they won and got nothing for it. It is really sucky in some areas that you have to build your own classes, but you gotta do what you gotta do I guess.

But overall I agree with what you're saying, Lisa. The frustration with the ADBA mentality as well. I feel like a prima donna when my dog goes in that ring and stacks and gaits like she's at a UKC show. But it works to her advantage. In the meantime, other dogs are acting a fool and you can't see them for all the dust they're kicking up. Its just how she's been trained, and I sure don't keep my dogs secluded out of fear or any other reason. Frankly, I think the socialization and training has given her an edge in many things. Does it open her up to more chances to cause problems if she comes in contact with stuff outside her familiar setting? Well, yeah. But dogs need to have those experiences. It doesn't matter if they're gamebred or not.

As for going up against pitterstaffs. Well, if we look at Loki's pedigree I guess I resemble that remark. LOL! But either way, on those occasions when we've beaten AmStaffs, it just makes that win all the more sweeter. I'd feel like a cur if we never tried because we knew we were going to lose.


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## SouthernMystery (Feb 20, 2011)

i think once this thread got back on topic that it was very helpful. i've never been to an adba show,but from my understanding the judges like it when the dog is showing da in the ring, because that's what it was bred to do?? i'm not really sure and if im wrong please correct me....


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

It depends on the judge. Some dogs are so busy flinging themselves at the other dogs that you wonder how the judge ever really gets to see their conformation. The dogs that I've known personally who show in ADBA conformation, most of them don't act like that. Terra stacks and behaves herself in the ring, and she's done fairly well. There's another male here that fires up, and he's done well, too. I personally give the edge to the dog that actually _shows_ rather than just mouthing off, but in the end its the judge's decision.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

They want to see fire and personality for some judges but they should not be facing dogs of. A good judge will tell you if your dog is acting like a fool and they cannot see the conformation of it, it's your fault. DA is allowed but should not be the winning factor and some of these ADBA ppl think the loudest dog wins and that is just far from the truth. I know at the FL show last weekend there have been complaints against the judges for letting things get out of control at the show.

My dogs show personality in the ring and a little fire but they are under control at all times. I have Best in Show wins, Best of Opposite wins, placement at nationals, invitational wins, and placements at all levels. At the end of the show when I have the judges sign my hardware they have all thanked me for having dogs who have personality but are under control so they can see them stacked. It never fails they always compliment me being able to stack them up so they can see the dogs. many of these ADBA ppl are just not educated on what it is to stack a dog and understand very little about conformation. Those of us that have showed UKC and AKC know how to handle dogs better and it really shows at ADBA shows. Stacking a dog to show it's best takes understanding of what the judge is look for. Also when the judge is done looking at all the dogs then goes back to pick who he likes, you should be working it and making sure your dog looks great every time he looks at it. If you are just standing there and your dog is standing at a weird angle, it makes them look off and not as they should. It's kind of hard to put it in words but good handling has a lot to do with it and also having a nice dog.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I think it is true Dooney act a crazy mess. But when I reach down pull his collar up tell him to "Stackem" he stands still for the judge. He does ok too. I think the dog should very well beawea that their are other dogs in the ring and if challenged it should show that it is a bulldog. Just learn to control the dog.


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## AmericanSuperDog (Jan 18, 2011)

First and foremost I would like to express my appreciation for all posts/members that have provided relevant input. I appreciate the topic being live and healthy.

Next I would like to apologize for my long posts. I view thoroughness as a positive attribute. No one has ever seriously challenged me on being not thorough.

__________
Firehazzard
__________



Firehazard said:


> I don't know what dogs your looking at; LOL APBTs will not lose to an AST if it does then its not an APBT.. APBTs are game period.. Louis P. Colby "the pit bull can whip any dog at what it was bred to do then whip em when its done"


I see your contention in this statement as I firmly believe as a breed the game style Pit Bull is going to be more game than any other breed in existence. I believe the breed as a whole regardless of name choice is the most athletic in mind, body and spirit. This is why I have chosen it for the bases of the American Super Dog tv series.

On the other hand though to say a Pit Bull is game because it is a Pit Bull Colby also says "if you were to take anybody's strain, ours included, probably out of every 100 dogs there wouldn't be more than five or ten who were completely dead game." (Colby's Book Of The American Pit Bull Terier p. 56).

I have great respect for Colby. I think to be fair to an individual however if we are to quote them we should be able to also source the quote, Please let me know the quote source of your Colby quote as I do not recall that one but do recall one very similar. "If it was jumped by another dog in the street, it was expected to "lick it." A dog however was not expected to start trouble in the street for no reason. &#8230;&#8230;.only well-adjusted dogs that could find their niche in doggy society would survive." (Colby's Book Of The American Pit Bull Terier p. 38)



Firehazard said:


> Louis P Colby designed both dogs practically thats why Colby is in ADBA, AKC, and the oldest registery in the USA the UKC.


The oldest written visual conformation standard is the 1936 Am Staff standard in part based on the Colby yard. "A committee headed by W.T. Brandon was delegated to go around the nation looking at Pit Bulls and to come to a standard based on their observations. In the yard of John P. Colby they found Colby's Primo, a dog they felt represented a sound, athletic dog. Primo was measured and observed by this committee, and the AKC standard was based in part on this dog. A picture of Primo was used to represent the standard of the StaffordshireTerrier for many years" (Colby's Book Of The American Pit Bull Terier p. 94-95)



Firehazard said:


> If your experience is showing you ASTs out performing APBTs then those arent REAL APBTs just look like it, as APBTs are bred for whats upstairs, and the game drive makes the dog go unitl its heart stops, there aint no givin up let alone the idea of can't..


I think you mean are not REAL AST's they are APBT's. Correct me if I misunderstand.

I like how you are helping to define game also in your statement. I think the term "game" alone would make a great post. I see it used in a vague manner so often and in other cases see it misused or confused with similar but different meaning terms like aggression.

So to make note of some of the qualities I am going to list those you have noted and later as the topic grows we can continue to add more.

-Intelligence
-Drive
-Determination



Firehazard said:


> If an AST is being bred for performance then one should check the ped, as many APBTs are also registered as ASTs in the AKC and are performance dogs but they are APBT first and foremost and registered as a dog by any other name..


If AST owners do enough research they will find that all AST's are derived from 100% Pit Bulls. What I see on both sides of the fence on this issue is (some) APBT and AST owners alike wanting to deny the heritage for their perceived own personal gain one way or the other. In the original post this is one of the points I was making about unnecessary division in the community as a whole.



Firehazard said:


> APBT first then registered as AST from game dog stock follow your AST peds back.. I've shown several that are in all 3 registeries but my comments were removed. just follow colby, nebbletts, heinzl(who despised the AST) bloodlines and watch them divide in the 3 registeries and some are registered in all three.


Some forums more than others APBT or AST is a really divisive issue. On all forums dealing with the breed though you will find those who are divided on the APBT vs. AST issue.



Firehazard said:


> I see a GOOD deal of APBTs being called and stuck with AKC papers to get away from the Pit Bull stigma .. .


People need to understand that this divided front is what opens the door for places considering BSL. Name me one place that has BSL listed that does not also include the Am Staff. If this is the case it is most likely a new law. Come back to this post in another year and let us know if the Am Staff has not been added. The APBT is the foot in the door for BSL. Once the door is held open many others breeds are added in many cases without even the need for citizen review or voting. Simply penned in by a bureaucrat.



Firehazard said:


> the APBT is Americas Super Dog  PeRiOd~


That is my belief and hope. Now we are looking for proof by people showing us this and uploading their vids. to American Super Dog 
__________
Bahamutt99 - I am combining both post quotes to answer things more efficiently
__________



bahamutt99 said:


> Simply, people need to work their dogs. They need to work them in more than weight pull. They need to do sports that challenge the brain and not just the body. This is only my opinion and I'm sure a lot of people don't share it, but I think that the most breeding-quality dogs are multi-talented. They may not be going against other dogs anymore, but there's no reason they still can't be the premiere working breed.


I agree. I think intelligence is something that is a part of true game and more activities that would stretch the dogs mental boundaries would help develop both a more game and a more stable dog.



bahamutt99 said:


> But I think some people don't even start up in the first place because they're afraid. They're intimidated by what can be a very complex environment. If we could encourage more people to be mentors to the n00bs of the dog world, I think that would be a big help.


I agree. I think true failure is when you think (and worse yet brag) you can do something but not step up to the plate to try. No succeeding is learning. Failing is to not even try.



bahamutt99 said:


> And clubs are going belly-up because so many simply aren't hitting the shows. &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. I've been burned a lot by very poor judging and its turned me away from conformation.


This was my consensus as well. Some of the reasons people are not going is because they feel they are being judged or treated unfairly.



bahamutt99 said:


> I think a lot of things that we want to see in the breed are not necessarily things which are tested hard in licensed competitions. Most sports don't work a dog to exhaustion, or test their pain tolerance. But they are what we have right now. I would say that we could use things like Search and Rescue or narcotics detection as tangible, useful ways in which we can test and improve the breed while also performing public services which can help us in the fight against BSL. But unfortunately there are so few APBTs doing these things that its not really a reliable gauge of breeding quality.


This seems to support the statement in my original post

"reflective of just how little imagination the world and registries have when it comes to testing the drive, determination and don't give up attitude that are really at the heart of the term "game".

Is it the fault of local clubs who have failed to market themselves well enough to pull in more members? Who have failed to offer more opportunities of sporting events despite registries lack of sanctioning these? Who have failed to educate their members in the activities available? Who perpetuate a fear of failure by not embracing more participation through training?"



bahamutt99 said:


> It is really sucky in some areas that you have to build your own classes, but you gotta do what you gotta do I guess. &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. The frustration with the ADBA mentality as well. I feel like a prima donna when my dog goes in that ring and stacks and gaits like she's at a UKC show. &#8230;&#8230;.. Frankly, I think the socialization and training has given her an edge in many things.


In other posts I have seen others also who have tried to incorporate more events in club activities and basically be blown off or be given the cold shoulder. At least it is good that you are getting some positive feedback and some minimal support. I think these are issues that many clubs if they wish to continue need to address.

______________
performanceknls
______________



performanceknls said:


> with DA high drive dogs they need to start young so you can addressed those issues.


I think this goes to the mental stability of a dog, which I feel is an important part of true "game" In many cases people confuse Dog Aggression with gameness. While dog aggression can give one an upper-hand in a fight this is not actually an aspect in itself of game. Game is the don't give up part of the fight that makes them game. Of all the characteristics that make up game it is the spirit at which they work with a determination to give it their all and then some. A 110% attitude. HH Watson "no quit in him" (Colby's Book The American Pit Bull Terrier - p.41) and Colby - "while he himself (Galtie) was quite dog-aggressive, he sired some great dogs that were not. One Dog Colby's Demo&#8230;" and (Colby's Book The American Pit Bull Terrier - p.41) "not realizing that many of the gamest dogs that ever lived were quite comfortable with other dogs" (Colby's Book The American Pit Bull Terrier - p.42)

Just as a note I am adding this to the "game" standard.
-Mental Stability



performanceknls said:


> I think the economy has a lot to do with it right now, show attendance is really down because of no work and/or gas prices. I had planned on traveling a lot this year but looking at the gas prices I might not be able to do what I wanted to do.


I think the economy has and does affect show attendance but I also saw low attendance and participation when the economy was not in a slump. Definitely correlated but if other aspects like more events, more fair judging, less politics, more training, more encouragement, less division, etc. were dealt with then the economy by itself would not be that big of an issue.



performanceknls said:


> politics ...reluctance from APBT owners to travel for conformation.





performanceknls said:


> Like Lindsay said you sometimes need to bring your own competition HOWEVER if you stack the decks in your favor to Ch out a dog how ethical is that really. When ppl do that they do not bring good competition they bring substandard dogs and when that happens if your new Ch really worth that title? This is why I do not like Conformation, it is just an opinion on how a dog looks vs how a dog works. I would rather go to a sport event vs just conformation.


Politics and winning simply for showing up were part of my original post on Conformation.

"And what value really is an award in Conformation even when it is won in a non-bias fashion when the dog that wins is really the only dog entered into its Conformation grouping? Should such a dog win simply because it is entered and if so what does this really say about Conformation?"

Here is an interesting Colby quote similar to this topic that also relates "game" and other activities beyond fighting.

Colby - "While a dog may become a pit champion by defeating three mediocre dogs, and be himself a very mediocre dog of questionable gameness, in the sport of weight pulling the dog will always come up against an opponent (the weight) that is unvarying in quality. (Colby's Book Of The American Pit Bull Terier p. 57)

This addresses Conformation in a way as well as it goes to show the politics of some Conformation judging is ruining the event itself as they do not maintain a uniform quality. Every Conformation show I have ever watched and paid close attention to the winners and losers all events had some aspects of politics somewhere within them. In many cases where politics was not the deciding factor within a particular grouping it was because of the fact that there was a lone entry in that specific grouping.



performanceknls said:


> This breed is so much more that than if given the chance but it takes work!


I agree. Where is the real pride in ownership? Many people talk the talk but I see that it is very few who actually walk the walk. This is what American Super Dog would like to change.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:goodpost: See now your words are making sense up:and my colby quotes come from the Stratton library which book, hmm.. dunno maybe The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier, I'd have to look em' through. I have Colby's book also, stevens' book, and the stratton library as well as complete game dog, seminic, flieg, jessup, as well as a few others, I have read these books so much I have most of the info down ibid.. ya know? So quotes fly.. If I quote a dog man its because its an famous quote in Stratton or Colby's book(s). 

ASD, I wish you and your endeavors the best, Thanks from the APBT world, promote us in the light; spread knowledge as it is truth. Long live the game bred bulldog (which is what Louis P. Colby states they are when as why he refers to them as bulldogs.. "I call them bulldogs cause thats what they are, L.P.Colby") the REAL American Pit Bull Terrier~


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## AmericanSuperDog (Jan 18, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> :goodpost: See now your words are making sense up:and my colby quotes come from the Stratton library which book, hmm.. dunno maybe The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier, I'd have to look em' through. I have Colby's book also, stevens' book, and the stratton library as well as complete game dog, seminic, flieg, jessup, as well as a few others, I have read these books so much I have most of the info down ibid.. ya know? So quotes fly.. If I quote a dog man its because its an famous quote in Stratton or Colby's book(s).
> 
> ASD, I wish you and your endeavors the best, Thanks from the APBT world, promote us in the light; spread knowledge as it is truth. Long live the game bred bulldog (which is what Louis P. Colby states they are when as why he refers to them as bulldogs.. "I call them bulldogs cause thats what they are, L.P.Colby") the REAL American Pit Bull Terrier~


I couldn't find the quote right yet but I am digging. I am a bit OCD like that. I think one of my next new posts will be on quotes. People will be able to post their favorite Pit Bull relevant quotes, explain their take on the quote and then provide a proper source so it can be testified and commented on by the entire community. That would be a great post idea for people interested in doing added research and expanding their own knowledge. As you know there is tons of great information out there but because it is so scattered it can be hard to keep track of and owners of the breed are in a way loosing touch with the history on a personal level.

Thanks for the positive feedback. I hope the post continues to do well as we are learning a great deal and having user perspective is invaluable.


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## fisHarNekEd (Mar 17, 2009)

a little off breed, but similar arguement-

I had like issues when i bred Parsons russell terriers registered via the JRTCA. I was verry selective of who i sold PRT's to, as the parsons had much more gaming instinct compared to other clubs JRT's. Both strains are fueled by high octane, but one more than the other.

The PRT would be faulted for performance, where as the JRT is more strict on show, even though they are almost the same breed. The politics got too steep, and the ex wife got them anyway.


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## AmericanSuperDog (Jan 18, 2011)

fisHarNekEd said:


> a little off breed, but similar arguement-
> 
> I had like issues when i bred Parsons russell terriers registered via the JRTCA. I was verry selective of who i sold PRT's to, as the parsons had much more gaming instinct compared to other clubs JRT's. Both strains are fueled by high octane, but one more than the other.
> 
> The PRT would be faulted for performance, where as the JRT is more strict on show, even though they are almost the same breed. The politics got too steep, and the ex wife got them anyway.


Not off topic. That is very interesting what you say in terms of politics in the registration industry. My focus has been on the APBT primarily and notice quite a bit of politics with it. What effects do you think the politics has on membership and participation either specifically or in general?


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