# What is an Am Bully and how is it a "breed" of dog.



## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

I have a question. One that I have been trying to find the answer to for a long time. Hopfully "Indigo Bullies" and "Performance Kennels" could help me out here. The two of you seem to be quite educated on Am Bullies. 

What is an Am Bully? Structure or color standard isn't what I am asking. If a breed is created the creators have to show how they created the breed and what other breeds were used and at what points they were used in the creation right? Not asking why they were used or for what purpose but actually what was used and how it was used and at what points were they used to create a new breed?


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

good ? :clap: :clap: i dont think anyone truly knows. It's supposed to be apbt/amstaff, but clearly poor breeding practices have mutted the dogs out with mastiff's, ab's, oeb's, ect ect, to get the look "they" want, which i think has doomed the breed from the GET GO. It's going to be hard to set a standard, with the standards of these dogs all over the board, imo. I am an owner of an ambully, so you get this from me first hand unbiased. maybe someone can be more elaborate about the issue, cuz i cant answer fully haha ---shane


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Alright here we go. The said founder of the breed is Dave Wilson, acoording to what he says he visioned a dog that has the willing to please like APBT, but with a thicker bone mass and no DA. So he began crossing APBT with Amstaffs. These are the big names that you will see throwing knuckles, purple rose of cairo, sage etc. Most of these dogs were of CH amstaff blood.

Now in the process alot of fixing and mixing has been going around, breeders wanted to further exaggerate the features on the dogs. This is where all the shortcuts came in and everything went south, paper hanging also came into play. It is said Dave Wilson had some type of hook up through the UKC.

pocket bully- French bulldog, EB, Olde EB etc, crosses

XXL- Mastiff ie. cane corso, bull mastiff, english mastiff, I have even seen a few to look like the have a little Neo

Now no one knows the exact mixes or exactly when they came into play, I was just guessing from what I have seen. Also, lately a few breeders have developed a little more consistency so it is pretty much bully to bully. But, that has still lead to bowed legs and weak pasterns, but hey Rome wasn't built in a day.

Hope this helps others may clarify a little more for ya.


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

> good ? i dont think anyone truly knows. It's supposed to be apbt/amstaff, but clearly poor breeding practices have mutted the dogs out with mastiff's, ab's, oeb's, ect ect, to get the look "they" want, which i think has doomed the breed from the GET GO. It's going to be hard to set a standard, with the standards of these dogs all over the board, imo. I am an owner of an ambully, so you get this from me first hand unbiased. maybe someone can be more elaborate about the issue, cuz i cant answer fully haha ---shane


Thanks for the reply. I have heard that it's supposed to be APBT to Am Staff a few years back as well but like you say there is no standard because of the "look" thing.

I remember people saying that lowriding, compact, robust, bullier headed dogs are "bullies". I found it funny that they were saying that bullies all of a sudden are APBT x Am Staff because when you breed an APBT with an Am Staff you don't get that. You get a thicker structured, well conformed APBT looking dog or a hardier more agile Am Staff looking dog. Not the type of dogs I see ABKC and most "bully" breeders advertising as "Am Bullies".


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Actually I think an APBTxAmstaff is closer to a "show&go". 
I think the AmBully became a breed the second someone went and started a Kennel Club to recognize the the hybrid. I remember when Bully was just a descriptive word, myself. At this point, lineage is unknown to most, it probably won't come out of the closet until a more established kennel club recognizes the breed and finally asks, themselves.


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

Bully_Boy_Joe said:


> Alright here we go. The said founder of the breed is Dave Wilson, acoording to what he says he visioned a dog that has the willing to please like APBT, but with a thicker bone mass and no DA. So he began crossing APBT with Amstaffs. These are the big names that you will see throwing knuckles, purple rose of cairo, sage etc. Most of these dogs were of CH amstaff blood.
> 
> Now in the process alot of fixing and mixing has been going around, breeders wanted to further exaggerate the features on the dogs. This is where all the shortcuts came in and everything went south, paper hanging also came into play. It is said Dave Wilson had some type of hook up through the UKC.
> 
> ...


Okay. But if it's still in it's "construction" stage then how can it be a "breed" now?

Is the ABKC owned or formed by Dave Wilson?


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

reddoggy said:


> Actually I think an APBTxAmstaff is closer to a "show&go".
> I think the AmBully became a breed the second someone went and started a Kennel Club to recognize the the hybrid. I remember when Bully was just a descriptive word, myself. At this point, lineage is unknown to most, it probably won't come out of the closet until a more established kennel club recognizes the breed and finally asks, themselves.


That's exactly why no existing registry will recognize them. There has to be a blue print and there has to be consistency. I try to explain this to many bully folk but they most times end up taking it the wrong way and let emotions get the best of them.

Who ever runs the ABKC needs to be shot first of all for letting any and everybody come and register their dogs just because they look a certain way. ABKC looks to be a bigger con to the "real Am Bullies" (from what I am being told) than it is a pro.... Could that be true?


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

Is it safe to say that an "Am Bully" is any bulldog type mix then??


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

There are hardly any breeders still outcrossing, as far as construction goes... Well, in your words, I'd say they are evolving with selective breeding. Also, I'd like to ad that the ABKC is legit. They have really proven themselves to be a reputable registry. As for blue prints, and I made this point earlier, there aren't blue prints to every dog out there. Consistency and age are usually a factor in breed recognition.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Alex004 said:


> Is it safe to say that an "Am Bully" is any bulldog type mix then??


Sure, if you don't want the government knocking at your door when pit bulls are banned from the US


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

thats the original am bully


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Alex004 said:


> Okay. But if it's still in it's "construction" stage then how can it be a "breed" now?


You know what I have thought about that exact same thing. But, I really don't know. You must also take into consideration that if the Ambully title never came into play then people would still be calling them APBT. I guess it was just a way to add seperation between the two.

Also everyone is not trying to make the Ambully a better breed. Some folks are completely happy with it the way it is. That is why it might be a while before we see alll around consistency with the breed.

I am not sure if Dave Wilson started the ABKC, but more then likely he is heavily affiliated with the whole registry.


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

reddoggy said:


> Actually I think an APBTxAmstaff is closer to a "show&go".
> I think the AmBully became a breed the second someone went and started a Kennel Club to recognize the the hybrid. I remember when Bully was just a descriptive word, myself. At this point, lineage is unknown to most, it probably won't come out of the closet until a more established kennel club recognizes the breed and finally asks, themselves.


Yea I think that to because when I think Amstaf/APBT, TnT turpins and collett(sp?) comes to mind. I was just saying what I read in the article a while back.


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

reddoggy said:


> There are hardly any breeders still outcrossing, as far as construction goes... Well, in your words, I'd say they are evolving with selective breeding. Also, I'd like to ad that the ABKC is legit. They have really proven themselves to be a reputable registry. As for blue prints, and I made this point earlier, there aren't blue prints to every dog out there. Consistency and age are usually a factor in breed recognition.


On the contrary there are. The blueprints for breeds older than 100 years old are sketchy sometimes because they are so old. But something that is at the max 10 years old there should be a very definitve blue print. Again the Dogo Argentine is a fine example (and it is a 70 to 80 year old breed). So is the Black Russian Terrier.

ABKC being legit is relative. Reputable by who other than bully folk? If they are registering pure bred APBTs, pure bred Am Staffs, mixed APBTs, Mixed Am Staffs, Mixed Staff Bulls, Mixed Am Bulldogs, mixed Mastiffs and everything in between as Am Bully what have they proven?


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

i dont think that all ambullies are tainted. i think that if they would have stuck with the apbt/amstaff they definatly would have much better dogs running around lmao. im not a breeder, i know nothing about genetics, that's how i know that most of these dogs are CLEARLY not apbt/amstaff lol . theres no way. ---shane


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

but come to think about it, isnt an "amstaff" an "ambully" in definition. a toned down verson of the apbt, its kinda makes no sense to mix the two to create a new breed, in which, the breed already exists through the amstaff.....follow me? ---shane


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

Bully_Boy_Joe said:


> You know what I have thought about that exact same thing. But, I really don't know. You must also take into consideration that if the Ambully title never came into play then people would still be calling them APBT. I guess it was just a way to add seperation between the two.
> 
> Also everyone is not trying to make the Ambully a better breed. Some folks are completely happy with it the way it is. That is why it might be a while before we see alll around consistency with the breed.
> 
> I am not sure if Dave Wilson started the ABKC, but more then likely he is heavily affiliated with the whole registry.


But what "way" is that?? Is it an Am Staff x APBT or is it any bulldog type mix?


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

vdubbinya said:


> but come to think about it, isnt an "amstaff" an "ambully" in definition. a toned down verson of the apbt, its kinda makes no sense to mix the two to create a new breed, in which, the breed already exists through the amstaff.....follow me? ---shane


Following... And that is why I personally think that _that story_ is BS. That's why I am convinced that it was never consciously created as to form a new or different breed. I think it was a fad thing to have these outlandish looking dogs that were "pit bull looking" at the same time and in the whole mix of the real APBT folk fighting out against them some one thought up the idea as to "lets make it a breed". Am I wrong for thinking or believing that?


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

vdubbinya said:


> i dont think that all ambullies are tainted. i think that if they would have stuck with the apbt/amstaff they definatly would have much better dogs running around lmao. im not a breeder, i know nothing about genetics, that's how i know that most of these dogs are CLEARLY not apbt/amstaff lol . theres no way. ---shane


If they would have stuck with the Amstaff/ APBT mix then there would be no bully argument. 
This is what you get when you go show to game


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

ok is the am bully american bully? witch would make it a bully and leave the am out of the picture aren't they an american made breed from several dogs? i really don't know i wasn't there for the meeting.


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Alex004 said:


> But what "way" is that?? Is it an Am Staff x APBT or is it any bulldog type mix?


Okay first lets get into the idea that there isnt that much mixing goin on anymore. The bulldog features are still present because that is what people are breeding for. The "way", I was speaking of is the squat dogs with highly exaggerated features. Believe it or not, that is the preference of the general bully public.


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> ok is the am bully american bully? witch would make it a bully and leave the am out of the picture aren't they an american made breed from several dogs? i really don't know i wasn't there for the meeting.


I have no idea where your going with this.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

^^^^ nail on the head. even tho i dont like u much right now.  --shane


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

Bully_Boy_Joe said:


> Okay first lets get into the idea that there isnt that much mixing goin on anymore. The bulldog features are still present because that is what people are breeding for. The "way", I was speaking of is the squat dogs with highly exaggerated features. Believe it or not, that is the preference of the general bully public.


Okay. So the "squat dogs" are what Am Bullies are no matter how they are bred as long as they fit that discription?


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

Sorry made an error...


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

If you go to the ABKC website you will find standards for three different types of AmBully. You got your Pocket Bully, your Standard Bully, and your XL bully. Each type has it's own class and yes, by definition the short stout ones are AMBullies. Back to a point you were making... Bully used to be used as a descriptive word and still is to some of the older doggers out there.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Alex004 said:


> But mixing has to be still going on if ABKC is registering pure breds and mixed breds as one breed. And that is evident if the blue and white dog Bully Boy Joe posted is considered an Am Bully as well. Mixing will end 20 years after ABKC closes its books don't you think?


Ok we get it, they're mutts, they're cross breeds, they're hybrids... However you wanna spin it, they are still a breed and are here to stay. I said before that there is hardly anyone out there outcrossing with different breeds anymore... So the "how they're bred" thing is not gonna fly too far.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

nice posts reddoggy. --shane


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Alex004 said:


> But mixing has to be still going on if ABKC is registering pure breds and mixed breds as one breed. And that is evident if the blue and white dog Bully Boy Joe posted is considered an Am Bully as well. Mixing will end 20 years after ABKC closes its books don't you think?


No no no the dog I posted was in interjection to a seperate post. That is Typhoon she is far from what is considered an Ambully she is show n go.


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Alex004 said:


> Okay. So the "squat dogs" are what Am Bullies are no matter how they are bred as long as they fit that discription?


In a sense. At this stage of the breed it is pretty much personal preference. I was just using "squat" as in the dogs that are taking to the extremes in proportions. I am trying to keep up with your questions, but you don't have to take everything so literal.


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

But mixing has to be still going on if ABKC is registering pure breds and mixed breds as one breed. And that is evident if the blue and white dog Bully Boy Joe posted is considered an Am Bully as well. Mixing will end 20 years after ABKC closes its books. By then there will be no influence and the dogs will be much more consistent and will be a breed "genetically".

Most if not all other breeds are formed first with a purpose of forming that breed and to fit an ideal then it is registered as such and that forming processes usualy takes 10 to 20 years. In this case it has been done the other way around. The name and breed along with it's registry formed first then the actual breed. Not to say that it's wrong because in this day and time people are going crazy with the hybrid thing and going about it this way may be the best thing to do but expect folks from other breeds and renown kennel clubs to not give "Am Bullies" the "time of day" until quite some time after the ABKC books have been closed and the dogs are consistent. And the APBT or Am Staff name is only mentioned as one of the breeds that was used in creating the Am Bully and not that the Am Bully is a type of "pit bull". AKC, UKC, and ADBA all know exactly what a "pit bull" is. It makes no sense taking that road.


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

Bully_Boy_Joe said:


> In a sense. At this stage of the breed it is pretty much personal preference. I was just using "squat" as in the dogs that are taking to the extremes in proportions. I am trying to keep up with your questions, but you don't have to take everything so literal.


Not taken the squat thing literaly. Just trrying to get an understanding as to what this Am Bully thing is really all about.


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Well what else would you like to know?


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

If you wanna get a better sense of what it's all about, go to an abkc show and see for yourself. There will be a ton of kennels and handlers for you to get firstr hand info from.... And alot of impressive dogs to look at


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

reddoggy said:


> Ok we get it, they're mutts, they're cross breeds, they're hybrids... However you wanna spin it, they are still a breed and are here to stay. I said before that there is hardly anyone out there outcrossing with different breeds anymore... So the "how they're bred" thing is not gonna fly too far.


See that's one of the things that keeps the fuel to the fire going and the animosity between APBT people and Am Bully or bully people.

I am not trying to dis the dogs. What I am getting at and most other APBT people are trying to get at is if you want to make your dogs a breed of it's own by what you are doing with the dogs then you will have to _*do*_ what it takes to create a new breed of dog. That consists of making a blue print if one isn't already made and sticking to it. It also consists of not leaning on another breed of dog unless you are creating a "miniature" version of that breed like in the case of the Miniature Bull Terrier or a "giant" version like in the case of the Giant Schnauzer. Judging by the looks of the "Am Bully" it's neither a miniature nor a giant APBT or Am Staff nor is it "pit bull breed" because it has been outcrossed with other types of breeds to form it. In that case it will be just as much a "Mastiff breed", right?

Reminder that the Am Staff was never crossed out to another breed. AKC opened their books to pure bred APBTs and registered them as Am Staffs and then closed their books. What ever changes have happened to the dogs happened internally with the same blood that all the UKC and ADBA dogs have running through their veins as well. No new blood was intorduced.


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

reddoggy said:


> If you wanna get a better sense of what it's all about, go to an abkc show and see for yourself. There will be a ton of kennels and handlers for you to get firstr hand info from.... And alot of impressive dogs to look at


Good idea and I have but nothing that comes out of anyone's mouths their is consistent. That's why I asked the same question on here. The only consistency I see at shows are deformaties in the dogs whether they be 50lbs or 100+. The deformaties comment isn't a dis, I am just stating what I see. English Bulldogs, Pugs, French Bulldogs are some of the breeds that are bred for deformaties. But even with the deformaties it still really isn't consistent. Some are slightly deformed and then there are some that are extremely deformed.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

"Thats a topic you could discuss for days and still not get a straight answer, plus i think i just puked in my mouth a little, lmao "


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Marty said:


> "Thats a topic you could discuss for days and still not get a straight answer, plus i think i just puked in my mouth a little, lmao "


lmao!!!
I agree, I don't even want to read it.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

Just wondering how many of these we have?! *sigh*


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

haha, too many babe, and i dont think it will ever end. ---shane


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

So have I gotten all the answers their are to give? Surprised Idigo Bullie stayed away from this one. I thought they had some good knowledge of Bullies from the other thread.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Alex004 said:


> So have I gotten all the answers their are to give? Surprised Idigo Bullie stayed away from this one. I thought they had some good knowledge of Bullies from the other thread.


Alot of people stayed away from this one because they are tired of reading the nonsense that spills from your mouth and debating things that have been debated for the last year:stick:


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

So it's okay for moderators to disrespect regular members but it isn't ok for regular members to tell moderators to go fu^k themselves? It maybe nonsense to you but I bet if you took a poll you would find that plenty of members found this thread and others like it informative. Just because you are here longer than others doesn't mean that you can dictate what is sensible and what isn't.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Telling you how it is is not disrespect. I am tired of hearing members complain about your nonsense over subjects that have been discussed over and over and over. Polls up for you go vote away!


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

Memebers complaining? Please.... Lame excuse. Complaining about what? Are they forced to read this thread? Please enlighten me.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Alex004 said:


> Memebers complaining? Please.... Lame excuse. Complaining about what? Are they forced to read this thread? Please enlighten me.


Read your threads:hammer: Many people complain in your own threads lmao.


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

People do what you call "complaing" in every thread. It's called dicourse. You seem to have a problem with me asking why are bullies considered a breed. You don't need to read my posts and unless you have members coming to you directly complaining about me you should stay in your corner with you little petty personal comments. If you don't want to read it then don't. Go pick up a Stratton book and read that.


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

That's not very nice, a lot of members find American_Pit13 very informative and knowledgable and a nice person. just saying, if you want to have friends on this forum i wouldn't pick fights with people. no offense or anything. there have been tons of threads on bullies, you should just cool it and be calm  we're all friends here


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## Alex004 (Mar 11, 2009)

> I agree, I don't even want to read it.





> Alot of people stayed away from this one because they are tired of reading the *nonsense that spills from your mouth *and debating things that have been debated for the last year





> But you're straying off subject and to be quite honest you're a green and you're an idiot.


I'm the one picking fights?


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