# Still confused...please clarify



## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Hope I don't sound too ignorant, but I'm still confused on how dual registration makes sense or why...how are they UKC registered APBT and then ABKC registered American Bully...

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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Ukc and akc stock was foundation for the bully. Do some research on the history of both and you may understand better. Some of the folks will elaborate on it more I'm sure. the abkc would be like a pup and the other two the dam and sire.


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## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Huh?? 

Lol, but really...what he said I do is correct and I didn't get scammed and I do have an American Bully?? Lol, I must sound stupid 

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## Corey209 (May 5, 2013)

From the videos and readings I've seen AKC was were bullies started, UKC is where most of them ended up. ABKC from my understanding is a really kick back family oriented registry that focuses around Bullies a misunderstood breed.

You can be registered with both, or one. The papers are what prove your dogs pedigree in that it's a bully.


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## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Thanks Corey ,)

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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Funny because Daves dogs were kicked out of the UKC yet his registry(ABKC) encourages, requires pups to be registered(if parents arent already registered by ABKC) to be UKC registered. Yes APBT and Amstaffs are technically of the same DNA though bred for different traits, therefore making a cross of the two also of the same DNA. Their in lies the confusion.... the problem."Name we wont mention" takes a dog which doesnt conform to the breeds standard, then says Ill call it an entirely different breed( in reality its the same breed it just doesnt conform) and then says its ok to call it an APBT and register it as such. 

The registries(UKC in paticular) are the ones truly at fault in this matter by flip flopping and now flip flopping again. The ABKC though still flawed kinda has the idea that if a dog doesnt conform you just create a new class for it. Bottom line is forget about all the registry drama, theyres new ones being created constantly. Call your dog what it is, if you dont know theres plenty who can tell you around here. IMHO dogs are the task they perform


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

ok lets start at square one. the Dave that Matt is referring to is Dave Wilson who started the Razors Edge bloodline and was pretty much the start of the American Bully breed. not to be confused with the APBT or the American Staffordshire Terrier. Dave originally started his stock with AKC and UKC dogs and then crossed the two, and although he denied it in the beginning as time goes on he admits to adding other breeds into the mix. one of his more famous dogs is Razors Edge Throwin Knuckles. and thats why AmBullies tend to be registered UKC as APBTs since the UKC does not recognize AmBully as a breed (AKC does not either). and the ABKC is a newer registry that was created solely for the purpose of registering AmBullies. and to be registered in the ABKC ur dog must have UKC papers to begin with. 

did i explain that good? simple enough?


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

I dont think him in paticular added anything other than the APBT/AST, though alot of RE(as well as numerous other famous bully AND apbt bloodlines) dogs have had the addition of other breeds, ie various mastiff breeds(Neo, bullmastiff, presa, ect), Ambulldog, EB, ect,ect. As far as calling AmBullys pitbulls, well thats a sensitive subject. Personally I dont think they should be. Though some would say since the AMstaff and APBT were once all all Amstaffs, and then bred apart, and then bred back together again, that their the same. I feel that once a breed is bred farther and farther away from its original purpose then the breed becomes something else regardless of what the DNA says. you cant go with registries or peds, or regs for that matter. Example say for instance Colby dogs became like Ambullys in function and form, yet still carried Cobly blood as far as the eye can see. Would you still call it an APBT? I wouldnt because the original function(of course form will eventually follow) has been deminished


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

damn... i had my response all typed and then lost it... bah!!!

Shorthand:
AmBully, AST, APBT. all different. name doesnt make the breed, bloodline and function and fitting the standard do. without proving itself in all three categories its is not said breed.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

I agree with the bloodline and function, but one doesnt necessarily have to conform to the standard to be such. You can have the best APBT breeding in the world but can still have a pup or two with non conforming faults. But yes you should stick with the standard in your breeding program and cull those with faults


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

904bullys said:


> I agree with the bloodline and function, but one doesnt necessarily have to conform to the standard to be such. You can have the best APBT breeding in the world but can still have a pup or two with non conforming faults. But yes you should stick with the standard in your breeding program and cull those with faults


oh yeah, i didnt mean it has to be perfect. but if u have a dog that is say colby/frisco and has proven itself in whatever it was bred for yet the dog looks like a boston/chi mix then... i dont know if id really be breeding or braggin too much... but thats just my opinion


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

of course because again form follows function. Im very literal and black and white on the matter. lol


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

lol yup yup! i agree, and Odin is a perfect example. if he were papered as an APBT (he's not) and he proved himself in ...lets say WP if thats what his ped read... he wouldnt truly be an APBT since he is so big and out of standard...


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

That being said if a dog has minor non health impairing faults and the function outweighs the minor faults I wouldnt necessarily cull, like a good catch dog for instance.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

This is a great thread >>>>>http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/14845-interesting-info.html


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## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Thanks guys, I was sleeping while you were providing all of that knowledge 

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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Heres a lil more info on the RE line aswell

Razors Edge was started in MD and DC by Dave Wilson and Carlos Barksdale. They started out with game dogs. They
researched everything they could find and read every book publicized at that time. The also subscribed to many dog magazines
like the ADBA Gazette, even some underground ones. They called nearly every breeder that they could find and questioned
them, If it said Pit, they were on it. They already owned some unpapered BYB Pits. They even had there own Pit club and went
hiking and other things back in the woods. Eventually they got enough money to get some real papered, good bloodline, game
dogs. They purchased some of the best around at the time. Even paid $3500 way back then for a Grandson of the great
“Plumbers Alligator”, mainly Mayfield lines. Dave and Carlos were very heavy into the game lines and had dogs from Hemphill
to Wilder blood. These were big game dogs.

Later on they hooked up with George Williams in DC and purchased a dog they named Diablo, from Wildside Kennels. Diablo’s
dad was a bigger catch dog, “Hollinsworth Bull”. His mom was a game girl names “Wildsides Ms.Leaky”. This was the turn
around time when Razors Edge started adding more size. The first ever registered “ADBA” Razors Edge breeding was from his
Mayfield boy Zeus to a Mayfield girl name Jinx. Jinx was actually given to friend back then named Curt Plater, now CLP
Kennels. He owned the first ever Razors Edge dog. They would lose contact after this for many years before hooking up again.
They banned Pits in PG County and Dave was forced to move. Eventually through Dave’s job in the Pet Store industry he
landed a mangers job at a Pet Store in VA. He had to move to VA and still resides there as Razors Edge Kennel.

Dave managed a Pet Store, worked as a professional dog trainer, and still bred bigger ADBA game dogs. Basically, he bred his
own pits now. He also put fliers in the Washington Post explaining what the breed was and what Razors Edge was.

Dave met a guy name Ron Smith who came aboard and took Razors Edge to another level. Dave saw this blue dog named “Steel
Town Blue Monday” and was hooked! Ron already knew every UKC and AKC breeder under the sun. He had been researching
on his own for years. So this man had all the pictures, info, etc…. He had fliers and pictures from every AKC and UKC breeder
from Coast to coast. He literally had pictures of almost all the dogs in all these pedigrees. That man really was the “Pit Guru”.
He first contacted thingy ‘n’ Bull Kennels, the ones that produced Monday. They turned them onto people in Cali with that
blood. Candace Eggart was one. Candy sent pictures of what she had and what she had going on. Just to give you a time frame,
She sold a dog years later to Tony Moore named Showtime! Showtime went on to be one of the foundation pregnant doges in
the Greyline bloodline! So this was years before Greyline was even around.

They went to every breeder on the East Coast. Up north to Bobby Morehouse, Beth Jones, a friend of his Lee Fitzgerald, Flying
A’s, Minot’s Ledge, etc. they actually purchased a blue brindle female named “Sadey” from Minot’s Ledge. This litter was had an
extraordinary pedigree. The top half were mainly Flying A’s dogs like “Oreo” and “Reo Speedwagon”. Dogs he had seen and
liked. You could see in the extended pedigree how these dogs stemmed from Ruffian dogs. Then you could see how it went
back even further from the AKC Ruffian dog to the UKC Colby dogs. This top half of the pedigree actually showed how Pits
eventually were registered as Staffs! Dave thought that was cool to see on paper and in a dog he owned. Then the bottom half of
the ped went right back to Stratton dogs. Dogs like Going light Barney, dogs he grew up reading about! Thanks to Richard
Stratton, Then behind them were the same Colby dogs he saw on the top half of the pedigree. So he had this dog that showed
the history of the Am. Staff and the directions the Colby line went in the UKC. he also purchased a male named “Razors Edge
Blue Maxx”. His top half was a dog named “StoryTime’s Upon this Rock” AKA “Peter” Peter was a dog bred by Beth Jones. He
was a big dog, but kinda ugly. They bred him to “Wassuc’s Farm Maggie May”. Dave really liked this compact girl. He
researched her lines and found she was Ryan. When they got to see the Ryan dogs they were surprised to see they were game
dogs. They were AKC registered Staffs, but they still bred for game dogs! This was something Dave had never seen, I’m sure
that’s why the AKC people didn’t like that line, . However; Dave loved it! Bully, game, blue, staffs! Now that’s what I am talking
about! Maxx was there boy from this blood. Now Razors Edge was big ADBA game dogs, one UKC Blue Brindle girl, and a Big
hot Blue Fawn AKC boy.

In Va there was Sharon Stone of Cloverhill, who had the biggest Staffs Dave had ever seen! Her old stuff was huge! Too tall for
what he was looking for, but huge! They changed years later and went more showy. Paco, was in Dave’s opinion actually a
throw back of her older days. Ginny York, Pam Perdue, GiGi, the Garretts, etc….they visited them all. Even went down to
Florida and checked out Marsha Woods. Met KC Courtier of Watchdog Kennels. Eventually, went up to Md and met Kimmar
Kennels. As soon as Dave stepped on the ranch, he knew he had found the build he was looking for! The Razors Edge package
was almost complete.

Razors Edge also had been advertising in the Washington Post for many years. Some young dudes from DC used to come down
and hang out and bring their dogs. Edwin Salinas and Joey Nevils were two of them. These guys had been buying dogs from
Kimmar and mixing their own stuff in them too. Kimmar used to have an ad in the post under the Pit Bull ads, it said “Petey
pups”. They didn’t want their dogs to be labeled as Pits; but they advertised directly under Pits? Hmmmmmm? Not as Staff?
Anyway, local people knew the deal and picked up a lot of her dogs. Joey, Edwin, Joey’s pops, and their boys had a bunch of
these dogs. Even some old friends of Dave’s Jerry and Gerrold had yards with these dogs. They all had game stuff in the mix.
dave tapped into a lot of their dogs as well.

In Kimmar’s yard he learned a lot about breeding and genetics. Dave spent every weekend there for almost three years, and
actually put on a training class for all her buyers every Sunday.

Razors Edge had been breeding now for a few generations and even used a lot of her dogs from other people in the mix. Ron,
also had some York dogs, and some other AKC stuff, they experimented with. Before they got Knuckles or any of them, Razors
Edge was already in the game. Kimmar actually used there dog Maxx for some breedings. Eventually we purchased around 15
dogs from her line, including Knuckles and Rage. While these pups were growing, Razors Edge already had it’s formula. They
just wanted a different head. They were not given papers on some of these dogs and they had to be UKC registered instead!
This is where Razors Edge became heavily involved in UKC. Dave started searching for a better head and came into some
Watchdog stuff. KC was not breeding anymore, so he had to find that blood somewhere else. he bought dogs from Grapevine
Kennels, and also hit up Hughzee’s, who he believe later on became Chaos Kennels. They had been talking to Pam from Gaff
Kennels for a few years, and really liked a boy name Seiko! So they got a dog from her. So Dave experimented with a lot of lines
and different dogs. Razors Edge started having a real consistent look. The heads were big, but they still wanted them to be a
little blockier. A few generations later it was pretty much there.

So by taking combinations of dogs and bloodlines Dave eventually got to the style of pitbull he wanted, now called “Bully Style”
of Pitbulls, Meaning large in size, such as a large head, wide chest, short blocky muzzles, large, but not over done bone, and a
shorter back, but at the same time correct as the United Kennel Club and American Kennel Club judge by.

Razors Edge purchased a pup from the breeding of Kimmars Catt Man Roo and Pam’s White Path China Black. These two dogs
produce a few dogs in the litter that helped to promote the Razors Edge line, dogs such as: GR CH Razors Edge Throwin
Knuckles, CH Razors Edge Inna Rage, and Razors Edge Sapphire Lil. Another breeding that produced one of the most famous
pregnant doges in the history of Razors Edge was between Ch. Jackson’s GMJ Mr. Brooks and Razors Edge SilverSadey of ML
which produced GR. CH. Razors Edge Sadey’s Paddington and also Kim’s Blue Dekota. Dave used Ch. CloverHill’s Watuka
Spirit AKA Paco and bred him to Paddington, which produced the legendary CH. Razors Edge Purple Rose of Cairo, the most
famous dog of all the Razors Edge dogs today in my opinion. Razors Edge Kenna Claddaugh, Razors Edge Top Notch Chino,
Razors Edge Chi Chi of Trueblue, Tonka and Jigga and Iced Mocha are also productions from this breeding.When the time was right the grand champion knuckles was bred to Paddington, which produced another female, named
Viagra. Viagra was bred to the legend Cairo and produced one of my favorite males Razors Edge V’s Lil Ro, AKA “RO”. They
also produced Cai, Diva, Caira and a few more. RO lives his own legacy today in producing some beautiful dogs such as suarez
bulls paco and genuine Edge’s Toxic, and Titan Kennels Titan, just to name a few of my favorite males out of him. A friend of
mine at Bully Loaded Kennels also has a son, Quake, and daughter, Faith, off of him that will be very nice when there older.
Cairo was also bred to a few other females but I won’t name them all just ones that come to mind, some of the important ones
in my eyes, such as the Cairo and Koi Breeding. Koi who is out of GR CH Knuckles and Dakota (Paddingtons sister), was bred
to Cairo and produced Rage, Neela, Brooklyn, Shamrock, Rolli, Rosetta, and Diamond. Cairo was also bred to tiki and produced
a male by the name of Hennessy. Cairo was also bred to my friends dog trixie of blackout kennels in VA and produced his male
Gooda, Bo at Bow Wow Kennels,Denile at Razors Edge Kennel, one of my personal favorite females of Razors Edge bloodline
and two others that go by Bosko and Bun. The cairo side of razorsedge is just a fraction of the bloodline. The line has been
taking in different directions but everythang basically stems from the knuckles, paddington, and rage blood.Another well known producing dog is Razors Edge CLP’s Short Shot, Short Shot is off of Buckshot and Rage, and is also a
grandson to Knuckles on Buckshots side and Rage is Knuckles sister. Shortshot has done a few breedings is his life, such as
Diamond, and more recently Paradise and Steel. there is also sections of the blood that are almost like a line in its own
depending on what your looking for, you got the Cairo side, the shortshot side, the you got manu side, dozer daisy line
breedings, which all of this basically ties into each and every dog produced from razorsedge yard in the very beginning! You just
have to connect them all together. It’s the facts of producing outstanding dogs from the start and putting time and effort and
lots of money into building a dream.
Razors Edge Kennel has been involved in learning, breeding, showing, training and raising the American Pitbull Terrier for well
over 15 years and it keeps getting better! Razorsedge will not die! It will live on through Dave’s kids, friends, and mainly in his
dogs! Razors Edge is a bloodline for everyone, it offers show quality dogs, bully correct dogs, bully dogs, and overdone dogs,
overdone meaning extreme bone, head, and chest, at the same time very nice dogs, but dogs that would not be able to win in
the show ring."


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I hate that they use the term "bully style pits" bah! Obviously this was before the name American Bully was coined....

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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

I agree. To each there own I guess some would say AST's APBT's and AMBullys are the same breed bred for different purposes though, a good example would be a Poodle, standard poodle is a working dog but a toy Poodle is the complete opposite, yet there still both Poodles. Accurate info though that Id say most were unaware of though.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

If you want to believe that.. Go for it.. 

Follow the genetics and you have your answers.. RE Gotti.. Wash.

The more i've heard Dave open his mouth.. Yeah.. Foot in mouth.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

I think you both know where I stand on the matter. As Im sure folks over seas would disagree with us calling our un proven ADBA dog "pits" as do I


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

904bullys said:


> I think you both know where I stand on the matter. As Im sure folks over seas would disagree with us calling our un proven ADBA dog "pits" as do I


Bulldogs.. :roll:


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

There all Amstaff's these days by function at least(showing, pulling, agility, ect). In Short ADBA dog= Amstaff with different comformation UKC dog= Amstaff with nearly identical comformation.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Bulldogs.. :roll:


Yes performance bulldogs at best


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

904bullys said:


> There all Amstaff's these days by function at least(showing, pulling, agility, ect). In Short ADBA dog= Amstaff with different comformation UKC dog= Amstaff with nearly identical comformation.


Actually, down from traditional stock catch use is the core function of a Bulldog.

Everyone knows my take of show stock and all that entails


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

@.

That analogy is as far fetched as calling a bully an apbt.
yes the registry should be straightening it out.
the problem is the breed has tons of people cross registering ..which may have had a purpose..but peddlers think it makes their pups better.



904bullys said:


> I dont think him in paticular added anything other than the APBT/AST, though alot of RE(as well as numerous other famous bully AND apbt bloodlines) dogs have had the addition of other breeds, ie various mastiff breeds(Neo, bullmastiff, presa, ect), Ambulldog, EB, ect,ect. As far as calling AmBullys pitbulls, well thats a sensitive subject. Personally I dont think they should be. Though some would say since the AMstaff and APBT were once all all Amstaffs, and then bred apart, and then bred back together again, that their the same. I feel that once a breed is bred farther and farther away from its original purpose then the breed becomes something else regardless of what the DNA says. you cant go with registries or peds, or regs for that matter. Example say for instance Colby dogs became like Ambullys in function and form, yet still carried Cobly blood as far as the eye can see. Would you still call it an APBT? I wouldnt because the original function(of course form will eventually follow) has been deminished


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Actually, down from traditional stock catch use is the core function of a Bulldog.
> 
> Everyone knows my take of show stock and all that entails


All three have also been used in catch work as well, and mix there of were popular at one point(ie early watchdog stuff) Personally I havent hog hunted in years nor have I thoroughly kept up with it in recent years


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

mccoypitbulls said:


> @.
> 
> That analogy is as far fetched as calling a bully an apbt.
> yes the registry should be straightening it out.
> the problem is the breed has tons of people cross registering ..which may have had a purpose..but peddlers think it makes their pups better.


Also a great deal of folks that would be interested in an AmBully want them because they simply want a dog that look "badass" and ya cant have "badass" without calling it a "Pit". So yes I agree dual registering IMHO is nothing more than a selling point. Personally I havent registered a litter in years because why should I?


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

What lines do u breed? I agree..the badass image ain't worth a hoot either.
there are a lot of problems with it..and a good read about this in recent gazette.
there is a lot going on in doge ..everybody should feed what they want. to say that one line is a sho line or a go line is not saying much..as we do not know every dog..in every country.even the ghost litters..no paperwork..like sayin they no good without papers ..just hard to agree with.. got to figure in all of ef.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

I dont breed bulldogs anymore. PM sent though


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## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Y'all have been busy...I'm going to have to save all this reading for when I get off 

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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I hear what y'all are sayin... I was just trying to keep it simple and answer the OP's question....

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## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Thanks Odin, I read up on all the RE stuff and Gotti before I picked her up...after I paid and papers were delivered is when I got worried about the APBT stuff...y'all excuse me if that didn't make sense, been at work since 730 and will be here until 9, today and tomorrow...boohoo boohoo 

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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

*Bella*Blu* said:


> Thanks Odin, I read up on all the RE stuff and Gotti before I picked her up...after I paid and papers were delivered is when I got worried about the APBT stuff...y'all excuse me if that didn't make sense, been at work since 730 and will be here until 9, today and tomorrow...boohoo boohoo
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ur very welcome and I understood what u meant.  Its natural to get something and then want to find out more info. When I rescued Odin from the shelter it was only a matter of months before I joined up here myself. 

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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Just dont call her a pit regardless of how much of the general public tells you otherwise. Yes it will get frustrating hearing over and over and over again. Someone ask you if she's a bluenose, simply reply " I dont know Im color blind". Odin's Blue Dragon will give you the best advice ever in dealing with those situations. As tempting as it is stay the course be true call it what it is, if not your only lying to yourself because the rest of the idiots dont know either way and chances are will probably forget in 10 minutes anyways. That is a hella cute puppy btw. We are really glad to have you here, the knowledge you can obtain here and out there on these wonderful animals is endless. Never stop asking questions and never assume you know more than the next person always get multiple opinions. And read Colby books and Faron books to name a few


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks for the compliment Matt. And yeah I'm used to the "bluenose" comments. I just smile and say "yes, his nose is blue.... but what does that have to do with my dog?" Lol I'm a smartass by nature tho... so it all just comes to me on the fly.lol! But I always avoid callin Odin a "pit bull"... I try to say mutt or Bully mix.

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## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Thanks guys  and lmao @ "I'm color blind"...not one person I have told that she is an American Bully has a clue, so then I try to explain and show pictures of what she will look like and all they say is "so she is just a shorter pit"...lol smh

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## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Odin is one handsome "mutt" ,)

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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

*Bella*Blu* said:


> Thanks guys  and lmao @ "I'm color blind"...not one person I have told that she is an American Bully has a clue, so then I try to explain and show pictures of what she will look like and all they say is "so she is just a shorter pit"...lol smh
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ya just give the lnk to the ABKC site and tell em to search it themselves. It can be exhausting. My dogs have always been very socialized, just not with the general public.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

*Bella*Blu* said:


> Odin is one handsome "mutt" ,)
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


thanks! Odin send kisses!


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## ARK_Kennel (Jun 5, 2008)

Here is a foundation RE dog.

When inbred with certain dogs he creates short (16" under) bully pups. When line bred he produces very consistent litters. When out crossed.... don't know.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [223278] :: RAZOR'S EDGE BOSSCO


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## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Bossco looks amazing!

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