# Color Breeding



## Jaymicsi

Hey, I was wondering if some of the experts on here could help me out. I understand that breeding for color isn't whats important but I am very curious. If I was to breed a Chocolate (choc nosed) with no white to a dark blue (blue nosed) with the irish spotting what could the pups potentially come out looking like? Does the Chocolate trait overpower the rest? Please get back to me. I am looking for answers from people who have either done this combo or have an abundance of knowledge in genetics. Thanks!!


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## performanceknls

There is more info that is needed like what colors made up the parents. You have to have two blue genes to make a blue so it has to come from both parents. If only one parent is blue and the other does not carry the recessive blue gene then you will not have any blues.


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## KMdogs

Ay-bbD- brown or chocolate while "Blue" (dilute of black) As-ddE-... Typically interactions genetically with B and D loci produce very "rich" in brindle variations...

Typically the color "blue" is largely dominate however if your other dog is not a carrier in order for this to occur in frequent.. While genetics is not set in stone and can be morphed and mutated there is no real precise method of knowing what can be produced.. Typically, out of what you said in your post i would expect black, brown/choc, perhaps a blue brindle but fairly unlikely.. I wouldn't expect a blue to be thrown unless your other dog would be a carrier thus producing blues and blue fawn, or variations of there mentioned.. More than likely full litter of darker pigments.

Now i hope you are asking for knowledge gain vs already bred/planning to breed.. nose colors mean next to nothing and does not define a breed in any shape or form.. I'm assuming you have American Bullies or American Staffordshire Terriers (or mixes of either) based on you owning a blue as blue and APBT's do not go hand to hand.. Many old timers viewed what we call blue as not a color of a bulldog and had no business in the breed therefore culled if popped up which was extremely rare..and evidence can be seen as even back then AmStaff type lines crossed to produce carriers thus eventually thrown..

Even in todays world and breedings blue (again, dilute of black) does not pop up frequently in bulldogs and can be seen as a negative or positive depending on the person.. However you will not find a single APBT yard breeding only blues as you do with American Bullies. There are reasons for this other than the common sense..


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## American_Pit13

You would need to know more of the relatives colors and there is no such thing as Irish spotting......


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## KMdogs

American_Pit13 said:


> You would need to know more of the relatives colors and there is no such thing as Irish spotting......


Basically.. :rofl::goodpost:


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## Jaymicsi

Thank you KMDogs for the help. I was really just interested in knowing what an all Chocolate would do to a blue as far as pups. I understand you would need more info about there parents. I was looking for a basic idea. I called it irish spotting because that is what I have read in numerous genetic articles concerning color variations. My blue pit is Dark blue and has white feet, chest, and on her face. The chocolate is a dark chocolate with no white anywhere. The chocolate pups parents are both chocolate carries, the mom is a red, red nose and the father is a champagne red nose. That's all I know. Thanks for the input. I was slightly confused with what I've been reading and was curious about whether or not the dilute gene (choc) to dilute gene (blue) would cause the chocolate to dilute further.


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## Trojanboi400

Jaymicsi said:


> Thank you KMDogs for the help. I was really just interested in knowing what an all Chocolate would do to a blue as far as pups. I understand you would need more info about there parents. I was looking for a basic idea. I called it irish spotting because that is what I have read in numerous genetic articles concerning color variations. My blue pit is Dark blue and has white feet, chest, and on her face. The chocolate is a dark chocolate with no white anywhere. The chocolate pups parents are both chocolate carries, the mom is a red, red nose and the father is a champagne red nose. That's all I know. Thanks for the input. I was slightly confused with what I've been reading and was curious about whether or not the dilute gene (choc) to dilute gene (blue) would cause the chocolate to dilute further.


I personally think the choc/brown would dominate in that litter but who knows...anyway

B (brown) locus-Chocolate is bc

The alleles at the B locus are related to the production of tyrosinase related protein 1 (TYRP1) and determine the degree to which an animal expresses tyrosinase, an enzyme related to the production of melanin, in its coat and skin (including the nose and paw pads). There are two known alleles that can occur at the B locus:
B = Black
b = Brown (includes several alleles - bs, bd and bc)

B is dominant to b. An animal that has at least one copy of the B allele will have a black nose, paw pads and eye rims while an animal that is homozygous for any of the b alleles will have a liver nose, paw pads and eye rims.

D (dilute) locus

The alleles at the D locus (the melanophilin gene or MLPH) are related to the dilution of eumelanin and/or phaeomelanin and determine the intensity of pigmentation. There are two known alleles:
D = Not Diluted
d = Diluted (Black becomes grey or blue; brown becomes light tan or "Isabella")

D is dominant to d. Homozygosity of d is sometimes accompanied by hair loss and recurrent skin inflammation, a condition referred to as either color dilution alopecia (CDA) or black hair follicular dysplasia (BHFD) depending upon the breed of dog.

As for IRISH SPOTTING, it is an actual genetic term. I personally don't hear it a lot but I see a lot of dogs with it. My girl Cookie has it.

S (spotting) locus

The alleles at the S locus (the microphthalmia-associated transcription factor gene or MITF) determine the degree and distribution of spotting of an animal's coat. There is disagreement as to the number of alleles that occur at the S locus, with researchers postulating either two or four alleles. The four alleles postulated are:
S = Solid colour (small areas of white may appear on chest, toes or tail tip)
si = Irish-spotting (white on muzzle, forehead, feet, legs, chest and tail)
sp = Pie-bald spotting (large areas of white)
sw = Extreme pie-bald spotting (Extremely large areas of white, almost completely white)

S is dominant to s. DNA studies have not yet confirmed the existence of all four alleles, with some research suggesting the existence of at least two alleles (S and sp) and other research suggesting the possible existence of a third allele (si). It has been suggested that what appears to be the result of an sw allele is in fact the result of plus and minus modifiers acting on one of the other alleles. It is thought that the spotting that occurs in Dalmatians is the result of the interaction of three loci (the S locus, the T locus and F locus) giving them a unique spotting pattern not found in any other breed.


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## Old_Blood

It depends on their genetic make up. What each parent is carrying. There are several combinations that can lead to different outcomes. 

Starting with the basic both parents are black (Kb), one has dilute gene (causing them to be blue dd) the other has liver gene (makes chocolate bb). If neither parent is a carrier for the other recessive then you will get 
Black pups who carry blue nose / red nose Kb/ky Bb Dd 
Probably some buckskin, fawn or red, Those pups would be ky/ky (which allows Ay/Ay expression) and carriers of blue nose and nose too of course. As its its probable they carry the recessive gene which allows the A locus to express. Though a couple of their pups may inherit 2 alleles for black which means they will produce entire litters of black pups. (there can be exceptions).

If the chocolate carriers blue nose (Kb/ky bb Dd), but blue (Kb/ky BB Dd) doesn't carry red nose you would see
Black Kb/ky or Kb/Kb Bb Dd 
Blue Kb/ky or ky/ky Bb dd
Blue fawn Ay/Ay ky/ky Bb dd
Red, fawn or buckskin Ay/Ay ky/ky Bb Dd 
The Ay/Ay is present in all examples (this mating and all other examples unless otherwise specified) but not allowed expression 

If the blue carriers red nose (Kb/ky Bb Dd), but chocolate doesn't carry blue nose (Kb/ky bb DD)you will see 
Black Kb/ky or Kb/Kb Bb Dd
Chocolate Kb/ky or Kb/Kb bb Dd
Red, fawn, or buckskin with black or red nose Ay/Ay ky/ky Bb Dd or bb for red nose

If both carry an allele for the other you (Ay/Ay Kb/ky bb Dd for the chocolate and Ay/Ay Kb/ky Bb dd for the blue) ) could see. 
Black Kb/ky or Kb/Kb Bb Dd
Chocolate Kb/ky or Kb/Kb bb Dd
Blue Kb/ky or Kb/Kb Bb dd
Champagne / lilac these dogs arr homozygous for both genes, they are bb dd. 
Red, fawn or buckskin black or red nose Ay/Ay Ky/Ky Bb Dd or bb Dd for red nose
Blue fawn Ay/Ay ky/ky Bb dd

There is also the possibility that one of the parents has a brindle allele. Brindle is dominant over the A locus also (and over the allele thst allows A to express of course), but black is dominant over brindle and will mask it. It really wouldn't matter which parent had a brindle and which had recessive allele if a pup inherented one from one parent and the other from the other parent you would get brindle, chocolate brindle, red brindle red nose or blue brindle. If a pup got the brindle allele but black from the other parent it'd continue to be carried, the pup would be solid black, blue or chocolate.

Example
Let's say sire Chocolate carrying brindle 
Ay/Ay bb Kb/kbr DD 

Dam is blue 
Ay/Ay Bb Kb/ky dd

If pup gets kbr (brindle) from sire and ky from dam they will be brindle. 

You could also say both are carriers for tan point (At/at) in which case some pups will be black and tan, in above examples where you have blue, chocolate or lilac you'd have a possibility to have those colors as tan points. With the brindle you can have brindle points in the tan as well.


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## Firehazard

Hahahahaha! Handle your business :goodpost: I'm a sit on the side and grab a coke and a smile......

Thanks (KM)


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## Pit-bulls World-Wide

Hello guys... I have a fawn and my brother has a blue pit , will have a pic attached with this msg. I was wondering what color pups i might get if they bred. thanks for your help.


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## surfer

breeding for color..................
, 


please dont tell me you live in america,

because if you do, 

theres aready enuf experienced breeders

but thanks anyways


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## Stoney917

Ppl who ask these kinds of?????s def should not be breeding dogs ... 
I just wanna ask a stupid ? To ..... If I take a blue dog and a yellow dog can I make a green dog???????? Rotfflmao


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## OldDog

KMdogs said:


> based on you owning a blue as blue and APBT's do not go hand to hand.. Many old timers viewed what we call blue as not a color of a bulldog and had no business in the breed therefore culled if popped up which was extremely rare...


 I completely agree with most of what you stated , that said the blue dogs have existed since the Blue Paul dogs of Edinborough and Glasgow , modern incarnations of *gamebred* and deep game Blue dogs can be found in the Irish dogs/strains such as Ricky B's " Psycho" dog and dogs down from him ( bred originally by Gerry Allen out of Major to Molly) he won 4 and lost 1 game and won 9 times OTC. And yes Psycho was white with blue spots.

While I would agree with you as regards the vast majority of blues one should never say never and there are good blues out there though they are very few and very far between.

And nope I do not agree with breeding for color , that said dogs don;t know they're supposed to be bad based on color , just as they cannot read their papers and know that they're supposed to be good.


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## OldDog

KMdogs said:


> However you will not find a single APBT yard breeding only blues as you do with American Bullies. There are reasons for this other than the common sense..


 Oh boy , don't get me started on the folks who breed solely for " color" , I'm not noted for having much in the way of positive things to state about such individuals.


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## Princesspaola21

Stoney917 said:


> Ppl who ask these kinds of?????s def should not be breeding dogs ...
> I just wanna ask a stupid ? To ..... If I take a blue dog and a yellow dog can I make a green dog???????? Rotfflmao


No BUT if you breed a red nose to a blue nose you will get a purple nose. BAHAHAHAHA!!

DISCLAIMER:I was flipping joking!

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## prjwh081810

Princesspaola21 said:


> No BUT if you breed a red nose to a blue nose you will get a purple nose. BAHAHAHAHA!!
> 
> DISCLAIMER:I was flipping joking!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I will definitely pay big money for a purple nose 

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## Just Tap Pits

Grape ape is a purple nose.... a couple years back ya could've got a purple nose pup for 3-5k I think it was...

Pitbull Stud Dogs in NC | Pocket Bully Studs Micro Extreme | Stud Service | Affordable cheap stud fees | Southern Smoke Pitbulls bully Studs North Carolina | Razors Edge Mikeland Gottyline Gotti Bloodline Studs


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## prjwh081810

Just Tap Pits said:


> Grape ape is a purple nose.... a couple years back ya could've got a purple nose pup for 3-5k I think it was...
> 
> Pitbull Stud Dogs in NC | Pocket Bully Studs Micro Extreme | Stud Service | Affordable cheap stud fees | Southern Smoke Pitbulls bully Studs North Carolina | Razors Edge Mikeland Gottyline Gotti Bloodline Studs


Whaaaaaaaaa!!! Thats crazy. I havent ever heard of that

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## Just Tap Pits

prjwh081810 said:


> Whaaaaaaaaa!!! Thats crazy. I havent ever heard of that
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You havent heard of it bcuz its a bs hood byb thing...


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## prjwh081810

Just Tap Pits said:


> You havent heard of it bcuz its a bs hood byb thing...


Its a money maker thing huh?

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## Just Tap Pits

Yep........


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## BullyGal

The real name of those "purple" or lilac dogs, is Isabella. It is a dilute of Liver, just like Blue is a dilute of Black.

I believe anyway. I'm still learning color genetics.


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## Princesspaola21

BullyGal said:


> The real name of those "purple" or lilac dogs, is Isabella. It is a dilute of Liver, just like Blue is a dilute of Black.
> 
> I believe anyway. I'm still learning color genetics.


Actually I believe in American Bully's "purple" is registered as champagne. I think Isabella is the term used for Dobermans and other breeds. I have a guy on my Facebook from Ok that has a litter right now of the champagne or "purple" and wow are they pretty. It's definitely a unique color but not worth the $7500 a pup that he's asking. Well at least not to me.

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## BullyGal

I'm talking genetically. Not what the registries label them. Like Dapple in Doxies is really Merle with a fancy name.


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## Stoney917

I'd pay 10 stacks for a green one


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## Chendot35

I have a black well chocolate When the sun hits him American Bully and a female mix of blue gotti and American pitbull and I wasn't trying to breed them but stuff happens. I was wondering what colors I would be expecting from their litter

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## Indie

A dog that appears black except when in sunlight is actually seal. It's a less-pure form of black.


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## Chendot35

Indie said:


> A dog that appears black except when in sunlight is actually seal. It's a less-pure form of black.


Wouldn't seal be more of a grey my boys black but in the sun he looks brown

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## Indie

Here is a great page on black genetics:

Dog Coat Colour Genetics


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## Old_Blood

Seal is brown / red tint as Indie stated, not gray.


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