# Head Size?



## Loke-a-doke (Jun 11, 2010)

How important is head size for pit bulls? 
They told me at the humane society Loki was a pit bull, I've had a lot of people tell me he looks full pit but if anyone says he's not they say it's because his head is too small...

I don't really mind either way, I'm just sick of someone telling me I'm wrong whether I say Loki is full pit or that he's a mix.

Here's a few pictures, I know they're not great but I'm really just curious how important it is for the breed.









(couple weeks old)


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Head size is not important at all. That is the new thing with american bullies big head wide chest. This is not the case for the whole bully world but some do look for head size and huge chests.
His head looks fine to me it's proportionate with the rest of his body. Many people now a days have no clue what a real APBT looks like. The big bullies are called pitbulls and then people think our APBT's are mixes cause they are smaller, in some cases, and most don't have heads that big. People who have no clue about the breed can mistake them very easily. 
I would just tell people he's a pet bull


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

You can't go by his head size now and determine that it won't be bigger when he grows up. I thought this pup looked like a hound when he came home. All of a sudden his head blew up and his ears got smaller...LOL


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Yo cant know if he really is full APBT but he sure looks close to me and as KG420 stated owning a real APBT you just have to learn and except most people out there just don't know. But he is mighty fine looking boy thats for sure.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

In one of the APBT books I've read over the years, it said that a large head just adds more weight without adding biting power, and would actually be an impediment to an animal bred for sport purposes.


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## Loke-a-doke (Jun 11, 2010)

coppermare said:


> You can't go by his head size now and determine that it won't be bigger when he grows up. I thought this pup looked like a hound when he came home. All of a sudden his head blew up and his ears got smaller...LOL


Yup lol Loki was practically tripping over his ears a couple months ago but he's already grown into them more and I can tell his jaw is bigger...I tell pretty much everybody who says anything that he's only 5 months so it's hard to tell but of course everyybody knows a pit bull/boxer or a pit bull/JRT that looked just like him so they know best lol


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## ImPeCcAbLePiT$ (Apr 11, 2010)

Its not important at all...Pit bull heads are normally on a smaller scale than a American Bully though. Their bones aren't as dense as an American Bully causing their skeletons to not be as large, not to mention that they are just completely different in all aspects of structure. I agree with Kg, people have no clue these days...I have people ask me all the tiiiiiiimmmmmeee..."that's a pit?" It is dramatically annoying. I ponder on rather or not telling them to go do some research sometimes.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

In all the studies i have seen bite power is relative to head size.


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## ImPeCcAbLePiT$ (Apr 11, 2010)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> In all the studies i have seen bite power is relative to head size.


I would think so, I mean the bigger your head is, the bigger your jaws are. And to, on how frequently those jaws are worked at becoming stronger.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> In all the studies i have seen bite power is relative to head size.


I ahve never seen studies but hear from older Dog men that it is not important to bite power. And being to big takes from the bulldog ability. Just what I have been told having a dog whose head is alittle on the big side for his body.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

In the conformation standards, isn't a true APBT's head size supposed to be roughly 2/3 of it's overall shoulder width? I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere...


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

yes wingman


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> In all the studies i have seen bite power is relative to head size.


It is not. GSD have rather small narrow heads and a much more powerful bite than the APBT.


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## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> In all the studies i have seen bite power is relative to head size.


I would love to see those studies. Sorry, but I absolutely disagree with that statement. Head size is not associated with bite power or a heavy mouth.

To the OP. No the head size of an APBT is not important. An APBT is much more than a head. Unfortunately from what I've seen on the net head size is everything in certain Pit Bull style dogs.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Agreed.I remember watching something on NG about bite force and the african wild dogs had the most bite force out of any cannine class or dog in the world and they have rather skinny and small snouts like the GSD too.


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## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

I actually cringe when I am looking at an ad, or website, and a head measurement comes up. I think is a definate sign of a poor or inexperienced owner/breeder, who brags about such things. 

Regarding biting ability: "A dog only bites as hard as it wants to". This being said, The dogs that I have seen appear to bite the hardest on an obeject, such as a tug, rope or sleeve, seem to have medium to small heads. The bigger the head, the slower to the bite, and sometimes it is more shallow. Over the years, I have noticed, in schutzhund at least, the smaller gamebred dogs tend to stuff a bite more and hang on better, versus the amstaffs we have owned. As a rule, the amstaffs have bigger thicker heads with more underbite. Just a couple of my observations.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Bethb2007 said:


> I actually cringe when I am looking at an ad, or website, and a head measurement comes up. I think is a definate sign of a poor or inexperienced owner/breeder, who brags about such things.
> 
> Regarding biting ability: "A dog only bites as hard as it wants to". This being said, The dogs that I have seen appear to bite the hardest on an obeject, such as a tug, rope or sleeve, seem to have medium to small heads. The bigger the head, the slower to the bite, and sometimes it is more shallow. Over the years, I have noticed, in schutzhund at least, the smaller gamebred dogs tend to stuff a bite more and hang on better, versus the amstaffs we have owned. As a rule, the amstaffs have bigger thicker heads with more underbite. Just a couple of my observations.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## Loke-a-doke (Jun 11, 2010)

Bethb2007 said:


> I actually cringe when I am looking at an ad, or website, and a head measurement comes up. I think is a definate sign of a poor or inexperienced owner/breeder, who brags about such things.
> 
> Regarding biting ability: "A dog only bites as hard as it wants to". This being said, The dogs that I have seen appear to bite the hardest on an obeject, such as a tug, rope or sleeve, seem to have medium to small heads. The bigger the head, the slower to the bite, and sometimes it is more shallow. Over the years, I have noticed, in schutzhund at least, the smaller gamebred dogs tend to stuff a bite more and hang on better, versus the amstaffs we have owned. As a rule, the amstaffs have bigger thicker heads with more underbite. Just a couple of my observations.


Yup Loki definitely can bite hard and he's quick too.

That's what I've always thought is what people are saying about breeding and bite power and all that. It's mostly at school where anybody tries to tell me different, and yeah, I'm not really judgemental but you can tell the kids who have only dealt with badly bred dogs just by how they talk about it. 
They're always the ones who say he has a small head like he's so much less of a dog because of it, and they just have that sh!t eating grin like I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about. ugh those people make me soooo mad lol.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Don't sweat it. Uneducated people always think they know it all. I've had people tell me Dosia looks like half black lab, or there's no way that a full pit his head is too small, or he's too little to be a pit. It's just cause most of them are so used to seeing big bullies they have no clue what an APBT looks like. 
When we had our American Bulldogs people used to think they were pits. Mack Truck was 130 lbs and obviously no where close to pit. Every time I'd walk him people would say, "what a beautiful pit" to witch I'd say "he's an American Bulldog" and most would say "what's that?" lol. Its funny that the APBT I have gets confused for a lab mix, when he's full and papered, and my AB gets confused for an APBT. I mean really has any one ever seen a pit that big ever? loll


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

kg420 said:


> Don't sweat it. Uneducated people always think they know it all. I've had people tell me Dosia looks like half black lab, or there's no way that a full pit his head is too small, or he's too little to be a pit. It's just cause most of them are so used to seeing big bullies they have no clue what an APBT looks like.
> When we had our American Bulldogs people used to think they were pits. Mack Truck was 130 lbs and obviously no where close to pit. Every time I'd walk him people would say, "what a beautiful pit" to witch I'd say "he's an American Bulldog" and most would say "what's that?" lol. Its funny that the APBT I have gets confused for a lab mix, when he's full and papered, and my AB gets confused for an APBT. I mean really has any one ever seen a pit that big ever? loll


LoL^^

Dosia is CLEARLY full bred... Just goes to show what the media does to ppls minds.


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

I saw that Natgeo thing on bite force and think is totally bs! all dogs are individuals and just cause that APBT puppy they used in the show didn't bite all that hard don't mean you can gauge on how hard a breed bites with that test. Or any for that matter! What if It were a dog like Gr Ch Zebo hitting the sleeve? Or Molly bee? What would people say then?
Truth is I think pound for pound on averages the APBT Is the strongest and has the hardest bite of any breed!


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Lex's Guardian said:


> LoL^^
> 
> Dosia is CLEARLY full bred... Just goes to show what the media does to ppls minds.


I know right, he is actually on the big side for an APBT too witch makes it even funnier when people say he's too small loll.


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## Loke-a-doke (Jun 11, 2010)

kg420 said:


> Don't sweat it. Uneducated people always think they know it all. I've had people tell me Dosia looks like half black lab, or there's no way that a full pit his head is too small, or he's too little to be a pit. It's just cause most of them are so used to seeing big bullies they have no clue what an APBT looks like.
> When we had our American Bulldogs people used to think they were pits. Mack Truck was 130 lbs and obviously no where close to pit. Every time I'd walk him people would say, "what a beautiful pit" to witch I'd say "he's an American Bulldog" and most would say "what's that?" lol. Its funny that the APBT I have gets confused for a lab mix, when he's full and papered, and my AB gets confused for an APBT. I mean really has any one ever seen a pit that big ever? loll


That's what I think most people in Big Rapids are all about lol college kids just love to show off and pretend the know more than everyone 

Usually when people tell me he's not I just smile nicely and say "Yeah well he's still young so I have to see how he really grows up". They don't know how much he's changed already lol when I first brought him home I almost thought he would've been mixed with some kind of pointer because his nose was so long and slim but it's gotten a lot more square already.

Lol people always tell me that he must be mixed with jack russell even though he's 5 months and 30 lbs already.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

LMAO Jack russell that's funny. OMG people make me laugh.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

I think the dog's head should match his body. Whether it be big or small or medium. It should just be a nice picture. The dog I posted ( to me) his head is to big. It matches his chest but IMHO is to big for his rear end. He is way bigger in the front end than the rear end. He's UKC registered (don't mean squat to me) but he looks sorta like an american bulldog to me. He's athletic though don't be fooled (not as athletic as the other dog Oso). And bite force must be bad because he is the one that almost killed the gamey looking dog (Oso)in the other pic. Whatever he is and however he looks, he is the MOST PERFECT dog for my grandson of five years old. They just don't make a more laid back, child loving, cat loving, dog than him. 
I know that in playing my Weimaraner hurts worse than any of the others.
As for bite force I'm not sure it could ever be truely measured as a breed because there are just to many different variations in each breed. Just as we are all one human race but some are just stronger and built different. Why would it matter anyway? I don't care to find out any type of bite pressure...LOL


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

pimpidypimp said:


> I saw that Natgeo thing on bite force and think is totally bs! all dogs are individuals and just cause that APBT puppy they used in the show didn't bite all that hard don't mean you can gauge on how hard a breed bites with that test. Or any for that matter! What if It were a dog like Gr Ch Zebo hitting the sleeve? Or Molly bee? What would people say then?
> Truth is I think pound for pound on averages the APBT Is the strongest and has the hardest bite of any breed!


and what if the african wild dog they got to bite the thing didn't do it all that good either?


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

to the OP;
so to say he "looks purebred".
what would you say about my dog. pure bred or no?
Nismo:



















Elvisfink said:


> I would love to see those studies. Sorry, but I absolutely disagree with that statement. Head size is not associated with bite power or a heavy mouth.
> 
> To the OP. No the head size of an APBT is not important. An APBT is much more than a head. Unfortunately from what I've seen on the net head size is everything in certain Pit Bull style dogs.


i'd like to see those too.
some actual studies not some internet garbage soemone "thinks"


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

LOL at studies, I can find a study to support just about everything I could think of but it doesn't mean squat most times.

Here you go perfect example, ppl ask me all the time what breed of dogs Siren is and when I tell them they say she has to be mixed with hound or something else. lol
She just finished her ADBA CH (waiting for verification) look how small her head is but it is proportioned to her body.









Now Tempest has a more defined head but it is still not big









Monsoon has a bigger blockier head but it still matches his body and you still see a lot of bulldogs in the ADBA with heads like this, I like them both.
He is small at about 45lbs









Typhoon has his head (his daughter) and she also has and under bite but WOW can that dog bite with a deep full grip in Schutzhund.









With some of the bigger heads you get shorter muzzles and that really affects how the dogs breath and cool off. My smaller headed dogs fair much better in the heat and can cool off faster than the dogs with shorter muzzles.

When you see pictures of bullies and huge heads have you even seen them try to run and how hard they have to pant to cool off? I know condition plays a part too but also the muzzle length.

I too believe most ppl have never seen or have no idea what a real true APBT looks like.


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

These are the internet studies that I've seen





''






Use the tool they used in the first video to measure bite pressure for my dog and you'll get around 50lbs cause he don't care about crap like that, tie a pressure reader to a live animal and watch them numbers climb.


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## Loke-a-doke (Jun 11, 2010)

Nizmo said:


> to the OP;
> so to say he "looks purebred".
> what would you say about my dog. pure bred or no?


oh gosh I'm not really good at this kind of stuff either lol that's why I was asking but he looks like he could be pure bred to me...I like his goofy smile


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

He looks to be close to pure bred to me and i don't know if any told you but he is still young and most apbt with larger heads don't develop it to early. You will see when he is around 8 months to a year it will grow.
Dooney at 4 months.







Dooney at 10 months







He shows ADBA and I have had Judges say his head is on the bigger side.


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

Loke-a-doke said:


> oh gosh I'm not really good at this kind of stuff either lol that's why I was asking but he looks like he could be pure bred to me...I like his goofy smile


that we know of he has pitbull,lab,boston terrier :roll:



Rudy4747 said:


> He looks to be close to pure bred to me and i don't know if any told you but he is still young and most apbt with larger heads don't develop it to early. You will see when he is around 8 months to a year it will grow.


he'll be 2 in august lol.

i get kicks out of it.

it just goes to show that when people say they have purebreds. i dont believe it until there is a respected pedigree seen. lol


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## Hanover Pits (Jan 29, 2010)

I have nothing but apbt's and their heads are all different sizes. My male jesse james has the biggest out of all of them. But he's shorter than the rest as well.


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## Loke-a-doke (Jun 11, 2010)

Nizmo said:


> that we know of he has pitbull,lab,boston terrier :roll:
> 
> he'll be 2 in august lol.
> 
> ...


Ohh no lol I mean I know pit bulls can look so different ...I was just told he was full so I have as much reason to believe that as a mix.

Pretty much the whole point was I hate when I'm walking my dog and someone asks what he is...and when I say pit bull they have to argue with me about it lol I want to say if you already knew so much why'd you ask...
Haha I know I'm brand new to pits so at least I can admit I don't know everything


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

The head should be proportionate to the body not massive and overly blocky.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Here's a pic of Dosia at about 5 months. You can tell his head was very skinny and not to blocky.









this is him now his head has gotten bigger and looks proportionate to his body now. Ok maybe a bit bigger lol.


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

Loke-a-doke said:


> Ohh no lol I mean I know pit bulls can look so different ...I was just told he was full so I have as much reason to believe that as a mix.
> 
> Pretty much the whole point was I hate when I'm walking my dog and someone asks what he is...and when I say pit bull they have to argue with me about it lol I want to say if you already knew so much why'd you ask...
> Haha I know I'm brand new to pits so at least I can admit I don't know everything


i've been here for a good while now and i learn something new on here everyday.
i get the same responses with my dogs. 
just get a set response to reply with lol


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## Raiderblue (Jan 1, 2014)

I personally hate the looks of a big headed monster type bully. I didn't do my research before purchasing my dog ( with a few bullies in his ped, and who has a 19 inch head already at 5 months lol ). But, I prefer a true apbt who's head is proportionate with his body. Much more athletic looking. I don't understand the bully craze these days personally. Don't get me wrong, there are a few out there that I've liked. But for the most part, they can have those dogs (and keep em far far away).


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## TheHiddenAngel (Mar 21, 2014)

Man, this an old thread....why the heck is head size such a big deal?


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## Raiderblue (Jan 1, 2014)

It's not a big deal to me. But, some ill informed people think, the bigger the head, the more chance it's a pitbull lol. Which can't be any further from the truth.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Very true Raiderblue. Too big of a head was a BAD thing back in the day, and could be in some types of competition that is legal today. 

Head size has nothing to do with bite power, as some think, just as lots of thick muscle is not a good thing.
A dog bites hard because it wants to bite hard. Too much muscle mass and the dogs expire much quicker, and takes away speed.
I have seen small, weak looking ApBT's be able to crush bones, so they couldn;t have them for treats. 
Lightweight smaller dogs that had super like jaws, and could hang with the wind all day.

Also, from stories I heard, it can cause dogs to lose their balance. Makes them rather awkward. 

Most don't know it, but one old saying is, "The bigger they are, the bigger chance they are a cur." lol


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