# Fudge... Demodex



## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I found out that Pig and Cree's littermate, Felony, has come down with demodex.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Uh oh......


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

we're gonna clear this Demo up on her and watch her again. I immediately called Lisa to have her inspect Pig and Cree today which she says she hasn't seen anything, but she's going to inspect them thoroughly today. If ya'll remember engine (felony)was the runt and I had to hand raise her.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Yeah I remember... So maybe if she was the runt, she didn't get all of the antibodies she should have to establish a healthy immune system..? just a guess though


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

StaffyDaddy said:


> Yeah I remember... So maybe if she was the runt, she didn't get all of the antibodies she should have to establish a healthy immune system..? just a guess though


I'm thinking that may be it, or the lady I gave her to does ALOT of rescue. She has new dogs coming and going daily... maybe it stresses Felony out?


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

StaffyDaddy said:


> Yeah I remember... So maybe if she was the runt, she didn't get all of the antibodies she should have to establish a healthy immune system..? just a guess though


onyx was first born andthe biggest pup he had it when i first got him. my vet gave me this newer medicine for it. just shoot it down their throat every week for four weeks or so. i completely got rid of onyx's mange and he never got it again. a bit pricy but it was definately worth it.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

yeah, they even have a flea control now which treats Demo


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

My first thought is stress either vaccines related or th fact that dogs come in and out of the house causing stress. Pig and Cree are down for their "nap" right but but I will check them in about 30 min when it is time to work with them.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

good deal. I talked to Jenny after I hung up with you and she said that felony actually got her last vaccine about a week late


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

Puppies get the d mange from their mother when their immune system is weakened. I just found out my 4 month old litter all have it too. Mom showed no signs when she was nursing but when I weaned her she developed mastitis and almost died. I had her (or her niece can't remember )tested and she was negative. I know it is not an inherited disease and they get well and it never shows up again. But it most certainly is a bummer when you can't breed if they turn out to be champions. They are all in show homes and the guy who owns the sire is getting a lot of grief over this. It's not like something we planned yet we might as well have committed an atrocious act. Even if Cree and Pig aren't showing any signs they could still be positive so they need to have a skin scraping to make sure. Sorry, Shana, but I do feel bad for you.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Are you sure its actually demo and not just a small case of puppy mange, brought on by stress?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

rosesandthorns said:


> Puppies get the d mange from their mother when their immune system is weakened. I just found out my 4 month old litter all have it too. Mom showed no signs when she was nursing but when I weaned her she developed mastitis and almost died. I had her (or her niece can't remember )tested and she was negative. I know it is not an inherited disease and they get well and it never shows up again. But it most certainly is a bummer when you can't breed if they turn out to be champions. They are all in show homes and the guy who owns the sire is getting a lot of grief over this. It's not like something we planned yet we might as well have committed an atrocious act. Even if Cree and Pig aren't showing any signs they could still be positive so they need to have a skin scraping to make sure. Sorry, Shana, but I do feel bad for you.


If the whole litter has it then it then it is hereditary. If they are show dogs that is bad news because it can be passed down from genetics and mst breeders would S/N the litter. Doing a random scrapping on a dog who shows no signs of mange will not prove anything. All dogs have mites but they take over when the immune system is lowered. 
You can get mange from a lowered immune system in any dog at any age but when they are puppies (5 months in this case) it is most likely stress related or a lower immune system from vaccines.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

yeah it's demo (i think it's the same thing as puppy mange), Jenny works at the vets office. They scraped her on monday with a negative result and rescraped her today with a positive result


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

Lisa, the guy who has the sire has one of the pups and he said his didn't show any signs but that he tested positive at the vet. I can't remember which of the girls it was that had bald spots show up under her eyes and so I took her to the vet and they did a skin scraping but it came back negative. If it was the niece, she was sired by the dams brother. Every thing I have read says it is not hereditary but is due to a lower or weakened immune system. I'm not trying to dispute what you are saying I'm just confused by it all. I didn't think you could tell either unless they were showing signs. I'm just repeating what he told me. Because he asked me what I knew of my dogs parentage. I met her mother and her brother but never met her father. I don't think this has anything to do with it but her father was blue and the sire of the litter was blue. I know all dogs have mites so do humans. I just have never had anything like this in my 30 years with these dogs so I'm really confused.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

In some cases the weak immune system is what is inherited not the demodex itself... All dogs are born with the mites, but only dogs under high stress or a weak immune system show signs of it. hope this helps


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> yeah it's demo (i think it's the same thing as puppy mange), Jenny works at the vets office. They scraped her on monday with a negative result and rescraped her today with a positive result


Yeah it is, just sometimes it can be brought on mildly by stress as a puppy and not be full blown mange..

A little info for those who don't know how mange mites work.

It may surprise you to know that demodectic mites of various species live on the bodies of virtually every adult dog and most human beings, without causing any harm or irritation.

The mites are transferred directly from the mother to the puppies within the first week of life. Transmission of the mites is by direct contact only. That is, the mother and puppy must be physically touching, as the parasite cannot survive off of the animal. This is important because it means the kennel or bedding area does not become contaminated and therefore the environment need not be treated. Lesions, if present, usually appear first around the puppy's head, as this is the area most in contact with the mother. Virtually every mother carries and transfers mites to her puppies. Most puppies are immune to the mite's effects and display no clinical signs or lesions. A few are not immune and it is these puppies that develop full-blown cases of mange.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

great post holly! 


I'm thinking this is definitely enviornmental because I gave her a healthy puppy. She never showed any lesions or anything when she was in my care.


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

Thanks Shana that helps. And Holly that's exactly what I read too. My pups were all healthy and no signs of any legions either. It seems to be showing up in them as they are all getting rabies shots within a week of each other. They all live in the same general area.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

the whole litter came down with it? If that's the case i would think it is related to your breeding stock. I could be wrong though.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> great post holly!
> 
> I'm thinking this is definitely enviornmental because I gave her a healthy puppy. She never showed any lesions or anything when she was in my care.


I took a male back once that they where friends so I sucked it up and placed a pup with them, and he came back missing quite a bit of fur on his face, because he was "being a puppy" so they kept just locking him in the bathroom. I think you may remember Gehud.








I had him back got him some exercise and he was good as new.

*
Most all dogs have the mites. Its the immune system that matters.* When a dog develops and over flow of the mites and doesn't have the ability to fight them is what makes for a dog that should not be bred. Not because it got the mites, but because it has a weak immune system and can't fight off the mites on its own. If the dog can handle the mites on its own there is nothing wrong with it.

This is when the dogs immune system can't handle the mites.


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

See that's what I don't understand. I had never had a dog develop mastitis after weaning puppies either. She nursed them for 7 weeks. I took her back outside away from the pups on a Thursday and the pups all left on Saturday after having their vaccs on Friday. They just turned 4 months and I get the word they all have it. My pup I kept goes to the vet tomorrow for his rabies and I will see if he has it then. He doesn't appear to have it but I would think he would have been more likely than any of the other puppies, He was the runt(only weighed 4 lbs at 7 weeks) and he was born 7 hours after the last puppy. That seems like that would have been pretty stressful I know it was for me.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

your pups are mange free 
I will post more about mange when I get back I am in a hurry to get to a party!


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

I have no clue what the pups look like it's all been relayed to me. But I guess I will find out tomorrow if mine has it or not. I've worked with vets before and groomed dogs so I've seen mange and I've definately never had a dog look like that. When I had my dog tested(I'll see the records tomorrow and know which dog it was) it was simply because she had lost hair around both eyes. And we were checking her for allergies which she didn't have either but did the skin scraping to rule out mange. Never did figure out why she lost the hair around her eyes.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

rosesandthorns said:


> it was simply because she had lost hair around both eyes. And we were checking her for allergies which she didn't have either but did the skin scraping to rule out mange. Never did figure out why she lost the hair around her eyes.


Mange most often starts around the face area. However if the mites are not "out f control" enough a skin scraping will be negative.

Not saying that what she had, but its possible.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> your pups are mange free
> I will post more about mange when I get back I am in a hurry to get to a party!


Good deal! Have fun!



american_pit13 said:


> I took a male back once that they where friends so I sucked it up and placed a pup with them, and he came back missing quite a bit of fur on his face, because he was "being a puppy" so they kept just locking him in the bathroom. I think you may remember Gehud.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah i remember Ghud, wow i didn't realize that was how you ended back up with him. That's just terrible.

Felony has a few spots on her legs it actually didn't affect the face at all. Jenny invited me over tonight so I'll see if i can't get some pictures.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

rosesandthorns said:


> See that's what I don't understand. I had never had a dog develop mastitis after weaning puppies either. She nursed them for 7 weeks. I took her back outside away from the pups on a Thursday and the pups all left on Saturday after having their vaccs on Friday. They just turned 4 months and I get the word they all have it. My pup I kept goes to the vet tomorrow for his rabies and I will see if he has it then. He doesn't appear to have it but I would think he would have been more likely than any of the other puppies, He was the runt(only weighed 4 lbs at 7 weeks) and he was born 7 hours after the last puppy. That seems like that would have been pretty stressful I know it was for me.


Ok Leonard's late picking me up so I have time.

IMO a bitch should never nurse that long and may be why she got mastitis. They should be fully weaned by 5 weeks, most litters wean earlier in my experience the bitches get sick of the puppies and I have to start weaning around 3-4 weeks old. After you take the mom away fully you should not feed her for 36-48 hours then give only half of a regular feeding for the next day. That drys up the milk but if you take the puppies away after she has been having to provide milk for 7 weeks then she gets really full, mastitis could set in. Mastitis could have happened anyway despite your best efforts but nursing that long makes me wonder.

Now at 4 months you are giving rabies? That is really early! What other vaccines have they had and how many puppies out of the litter have mange? 
The hair loss around the eyes I guarantee you is mange. Just because the skin scrapping came back negative doesn't mean anything. If it looks like mange it normally is. Around the mouth, eyes, and on top of the head is where you see mange occur most of the time. A good vet (not saying that yours is not) will treat even with a negative scrapping. Surprisingly I have seen vets misdiagnose mange all the time, then the dogs gets worse. I see it in puppy class in the early stages and I tell them to go to the vet. they come back and said not that is not what it is it is allergies. They a month later it is really bad and another scrapping shows it was mange. I have had 5 puppies in my puppy classes this year be misdiagnosed as having allergies not mange.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

yep, felony had a false negative result on monday so she was retested today and it came back positive.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

oh yeah, Pig and Cree got theirs at 4 months but thats only because they were going to see aunt lisa lol


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

My guess is the combo of vaccinations, fostering, and having been hand fed and the runt have been the magic trifecta to let the mange in. As long as it is localized, and responds to treatment there is no reason to worry. Even if Pig and Cree get it, it could just be attributed the big changes and flight. Thrall had demodex when he was 4 months old, he had just had his rabies shot, and then we went away for 2 weeks and left him with my mom, and he was very stressed and depressed. He was treated, and in 3 years we have had no recurrance. I'm so sorry for the worry this little one has caused you, he has been tugging your heartstrings since he was born :-(


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

Lisa, Most of my dams do stop nursing around 4 weeks when the pups are eating good and usually won't have anything to do with them. She was nursing them about once a day for just a few minutes until they were about 51/2 weeks. I just felt the runt needed to continue to nurse more since he was so small. The other pups were weaned before that. The dog that had the negative had all of the hair around her eyes back in less than two weeks and she was grown probably 18 or 19 months old. I know grown dogs get mange too but I would have thought it would've been more severe at that age. My vet likes to give rabies around 16 weeks but I've known dogs that got rabies as early as 12 weeks especially if they were traveling. All the other pups 4 in total all went to another state at the same time. They traveled about 7 hours and then were split up and had to travel to other cities. So I'm wondering if that also contributed to their having mange and mine not showing any signs right now. I would never knowingly breed a dog that shouldn't be bred.


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

nismo's just came back 3times worse. the vet put him on a flea,tick,misquito, demodex treatment


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

what was the flea/tick stuffs name?


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> what was the flea/tick stuffs name?


idk if it has to be a prescription but the vet office wrote it/ordered it as a prescription, but its called "Promeris". i got a pamphlet for it but it didnt talk about demo in there. but the vet assured me that it will clears up the demo. but he has to be on it for 3 months she said. i should have asked why but i didnt lol.

i might have to return my camara now that i took him to the vet  i'll do my best to keep it tho because i love it! 
but we'll see.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

rosesandthorns said:


> Lisa, Most of my dams do stop nursing around 4 weeks when the pups are eating good and usually won't have anything to do with them. She was nursing them about once a day for just a few minutes until they were about 51/2 weeks. I just felt the runt needed to continue to nurse more since he was so small. The other pups were weaned before that. The dog that had the negative had all of the hair around her eyes back in less than two weeks and she was grown probably 18 or 19 months old. I know grown dogs get mange too but I would have thought it would've been more severe at that age. My vet likes to give rabies around 16 weeks but I've known dogs that got rabies as early as 12 weeks especially if they were traveling. All the other pups 4 in total all went to another state at the same time. They traveled about 7 hours and then were split up and had to travel to other cities. So I'm wondering if that also contributed to their having mange and mine not showing any signs right now. I would never knowingly breed a dog that shouldn't be bred.


Even the runt I would just make sure they had extra hand feeding and not mom's milk but next time you know not to let her lactate that long. Shipping puppies and giving them rabies and vaccines and all that stress could have given them mange. And I would not imply that you were breeding dog you shouldn't breed  anything I said to that effect were more in general.

The hair loss could have been Demodex that resolved it's self. You see that from time to time the immune system comes back up and takes care it of it on it's own.

Man I hate mange!! Sarcoptic is the worst!!! make me want to beat my head against the wall! :hammer:
I had a rescue that came from the Midwest and brought it to our house and infected 18 dogs in my house, 6 dogs in my best friends house, and my husband and I! lol


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

I'm glad Pig and Cree are negative! Thanks Lisa that is reassuring. I will try to get my pup to the vet today and hopefully post the results. ( I'm getting roofing estimates this morning so I may end up missing the vet, I would have to be there before 11:30 to be seen) I had never had a puppy that small to survive is the only reason I let him continue to nurse and I had supplemented him since birth but he stayed little until he had her all to himself on a full time basis. But I didn't know that 7 weeks was too long for her to nurse. So thanks for the heads up on that one.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Yeah let us know what they say


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

pupdate... there are two small spots of thining hair on Felony... I forgot to bring my camera last night. She looks great other than the two spots. 

Nizmo they are treating Felony with Promeris as well.


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