# Question about pup



## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Ok, so here we go...

after hours and hours of studying this site, im convinced to jump on board! very knowledgeable people here...

So here is my dilemma. i had a pit for 15 years and never had an issue w ne thing, but i had 2 kids so i couldnt give her the attention that she deserves ne more so had to give my dog away to my uncle who owns a farm...needless to say she is still kickin and chasin animals in a farm all day long lovin life...blah blah blah

...now, my kids r a little bigger and figured it was time for a pit again :roll: we just brought our 6wk old pup "Zorro" home



he was like 3 days into kibble wen i got him...puppy chow...i know...garbage!

so i started weaning him over to orijen puppy


now he is 7 weeks...i am guilty of feeding him a little extra than what the bag recommends..i been feeding almost 1 and a half as opposed to 1 cup a day between 2 meals a day. (he devours his food in 30 seconds) 

but i am noticing that he is beginning to knuckle over on his left leg and im concerned.

should I cut his food back? ...or just switch over to blue buff until he balances it out?

idk if this is bcuz of too much protein, unbalanced diet due to mixing puppy chow and orijen for first few days, or just maybe my 3 year old daughter put him down too hard????


the first pic was before any symptoms...you can see on the pic below how he leans to the right now... 
hes been like that for the last couple of days. seems like it bothers him to put weight on the leg...no real whimpering wen u touch his leg and he seems to run at will and play plenty

i do notice that he is quick to randomly lay down more when walking outside...maybe im just pnoid...can somebody tell me what they think?

...i know a few names on this site that are dripping w knowledge...Lisa and Deb lol :rofl: thanks in advance and im looking orward to learn more...hopefully we can spread the knowledge of this wonderful breed!!


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

It can be somewhat genetic , but the high protein may cause it to be more severe then it would be not every dog does great on high protein . If I were you I would switch him over right now to totw or BB or something even costcos kirkland food, and there is a great thread on what to do for knuckling if you use the search function up top. you have obviously caught this early so should be able to reverse it and see improvement fast. You will want to watch the weight as well { I know not a big concern with puppys usually but excess weight can just add to the problem}


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I would actually have to say not only is it "some what genetic" it is genetic. (even though there are "experts" out there that say otherwise) Poor genetics can create several issues both visible and not, the rate of which puppies grow also has to do with genetics, while other things can and do contribute it all goes back around to the genes.

Unfortunately the best fix is to take off of Orijen and start feeding something of much less protein. Its hard to tell from the pictures you provided however it appears to be the beginning stages so it wouldn't take long for correction. I would stick around 28% or less while as a pup. Once finished growing if you chose to try Orijen again you can as once the growing stages are complete its generally safe to go back, though with a high protein diet unless you own a working breed or heavily working your dog on a daily basis, its unnecessary to feed such levels.

I have fed high protein diets for years with zero health problems, as already mentioned though all dogs are going to be different and respond differently to all sorts of things, including kibble.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

I moved this to your own thread so that it didn't hijack someone elses.

Knuckling over is caused by the following:​ 1) a combination of two different types or brands of dog foods - feeding (50/50) 
2) the brand or type of food has been changed several times (3-4) times 
3) the addition of poor quality vitamins/minerals to a diet (not from whole foods)
4) human foods in amounts enough to disrupt the calcium/phosphorus balance 
5) too many calories vs the amount of free exercise they get on a daily bases
6) feeding a pet food that has minerals that are not very available to the body - crude forms
7) diets lacking vital microminerals or trace minerals
8) feeding too much of a good food
9) any or all of the above.

Check out *this thread on knuckling.* ​


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

He is very cute but also very young. 6 weeks is to young to be taken from it's mother and siblings. They learn bite inhibition from both of them so seeing as how you have little children you may have some issues with nibbling on fingers and things  Be prepared to work with that and as soon as he is up to date on shots I would get him into some puppy obedience classes. The appropriate age to be taken from it's mom is 8 weeks....just a little fyi  Now, as far as kibble goes I would stay lower protein. If you want to stay grain free taste of the wild has I believe two foods that are 25% protein (lamb and the fish formula) I believe. Also, blue buffalo adult lamb and brown rice is a good one as well it is only 22% protein. My girl started knuckling a little and I put her on BB for about 5 months. Now that she is almost a year old and we are both very active I just switched her to Acana grasslands. All in all I would stay with a lower protein with your pup  Also, try to keep the little ones from picking him up to much as they could drop him. He is still tiny and fragile


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> I would actually have to say not only is it "some what genetic" it is genetic. (even though there are "experts" out there that say otherwise) *Poor genetics can create several issues both visible and not*, the rate of which puppies grow also has to do with genetics, while other things can and do contribute it all goes back around to the genes.


While I can agree with this statement knuckling is not always poor genetics. Siren had 2 pups in her last litter slightly knuckle over and Siren herself was pretty bad a pup. Knuckling can be caused by several things including Genetics but all it really is, is the ligaments growing faster than the leg bones and not supporting the leg. When the pup grows up a bit and the bone grows there is no long last effect. It is not like hip displaysia or something that does not correct it's self.



pitbullmamanatl said:


> I moved this to your own thread so that it didn't hijack someone elses.
> 
> Knuckling over is caused by the following:​ 1) a combination of two different types or brands of dog foods - feeding (50/50)
> 2) the brand or type of food has been changed several times (3-4) times
> ...


:goodpost: Yeah what she said! lol



Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> He is very cute but also very young. 6 weeks is to young to be taken from it's mother and siblings. They learn bite inhibition from both of them so seeing as how you have little children you *may have some issues with nibbling on fingers and things * Be prepared to work with that and as soon as he is up to date on shots I would get him into some puppy obedience classes. The appropriate age to be taken from it's mom is 8 weeks....just a little fyi  Now, as far as kibble goes I would stay lower protein. If you want to stay grain free taste of the wild has I believe two foods that are 25% protein (lamb and the fish formula) I believe. Also, blue buffalo adult lamb and brown rice is a good one as well it is only 22% protein. My girl started knuckling a little and I put her on BB for about 5 months. Now that she is almost a year old and we are both very active I just switched her to Acana grasslands. All in all I would stay with a lower protein with your pup  Also, try to keep the little ones from picking him up to much as they could drop him. He is still tiny and fragile


What puppy doesn't have a nibbling problem! lol

To the OP do you have better pictures of the pup knuckling over? you normally see it start to happen at a little older age like around 8-10 weeks or older when the puppy has a growth spurt. In the pictures I do not see any real knuckling over. At this age you need to be feeding your puppy 3 times a day till they are about 16-18 weeks then you can go to twice a day. Twice a day is not enough for such a young pup. I would offer a cup at each feeding and if they eat it all great if not that is ok. This age they have a lot of growing to do and need a lot of food intake. Oh and :welcome: to the forum you have a very cute puppy!


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

here come some more pics! 

and thank all of u dat replied!!! 

i jus got home from petsmart and im going w the bb 22% lamb n rice kibble.

Im about to feed him now...

too performance...one cup per feeding?? reallyy??

i thought i was over feeding giving 1 1/4 cup per day as is.

he will LOVE 1 cup per day!!!! lol

i guess im doing 50/50, then slowly eliminate Orijen...

ne wayz thanks again..here go some pics 

ps sumbody tell me how to find this thread ezier...i had to do a search to find it.

Is there a way that i can just view my previous posts??:hammer:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> While I can agree with this statement knuckling is not always poor genetics. Siren had 2 pups in her last litter slightly knuckle over and Siren herself was pretty bad a pup. Knuckling can be caused by several things including Genetics but all it really is, is the ligaments growing faster than the leg bones and not supporting the leg. When the pup grows up a bit and the bone grows there is no long last effect. It is not like hip displaysia or something that does not correct it's self.
> 
> :goodpost: Yeah what she said! lol
> 
> ...


I'm still doing more investigating on my own time about this and the genetic side of things, i believe genetics contributes more than what most believe. I may prove myself wrong and i know other things contribute to it as well, naturally but thats all ill really say for now. If i end up proving myself i'll be posting a crap ton of information on my findings.. Its a slow process.

By no means do i think its the only factor, but i do think it is the base.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> To the OP do you have better pictures of the pup knuckling over? you normally see it start to happen at a little older age like around 8-10 weeks or older when the puppy has a growth spurt. *In the pictures I do not see any real knuckling over. *At this age you need to be feeding your puppy 3 times a day till they are about 16-18 weeks then you can go to twice a day. Twice a day is not enough for such a young pup. I would offer a cup at each feeding and if they eat it all great if not that is ok. This age they have a lot of growing to do and need a lot of food intake. Oh and :welcome: to the forum you have a very cute puppy!


Me either; however, the pasterns do look weak, but that could just be the picture.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

ok here are da pics...btw he ate his first 50/50 bb with orijen already. 

these are fresh pics taken right before chow time today. 

i am noticing that the leg seems to bother him more today..

i took a few different shots cuz his stance is always slightly different

something i forgot to mention was that i am watering the kibble briefly with warm water...dont know if that plays any role


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

NoWuCmEnOwU... said:


> ok here are da pics...btw he ate his first 50/50 bb with orijen already.
> 
> these are fresh pics taken right before chow time today.
> 
> ...


Correct me if I am wrong but the leg that is slightly bowed out looks like knuckling. Thats what Bella started doing when I discovered something wasn't right.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> What puppy doesn't have a nibbling problem! lol


I know that they all do Lisa LOL! :roll: You know what I was getting at


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

so what did u do about it wen u noticed it?? cuz Bella looks pretty good to me!! lol


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

NoWuCmEnOwU... said:


> so what did u do about it wen u noticed it?? cuz Bella looks pretty good to me!! lol


Of course she looks good now LOL! She's over it  I put her on the BB lamb and rice adult formula at 22% protein. I also supplement with MSM and Glucosamine for her joints


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

NoWuCmEnOwU... said:


> ok here are da pics...btw he ate his first 50/50 bb with orijen already.
> 
> these are fresh pics taken right before chow time today.
> 
> ...


You have him on the right food and yes I would feed a pup 3 times a day and I offer a cup each time. Catching the knuckling early is good and with a diet change you will be good to go in a few weeks.



Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> I know that they all do Lisa LOL! :roll: You know what I was getting at


I know but the way you said it made me LOL, like yeah.... all pups bite.....


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> You have him on the right food and yes I would feed a pup 3 times a day and I offer a cup each time. Catching the knuckling early is good and with a diet change you will be good to go in a few weeks.
> 
> Cool i will keep u guys posted! thank u for all ur help!:rofl:
> 
> ...


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

so check this out now. Zorro been on bb lamb n rice adult for a couple days now.

Good news is his left paw is no longer knuckling!!!!:clap:


Bad news is NOW HIS RIGHT PAW IS KNUCKLING!!!!!!! 


SO HOPE FULLY HE OUT GROWS IT ON HIS OTHER PAW

UGHHHHHHH ...GODBLESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!! FRUSTRATING LOL


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

It can take two weeks or more to see real results just keep him on that food. I wouldn't go high protein or grain free until he is about a year or so and when you do I would go no higher than 34%. My girl will be a year old next month and I was going to put her on TOTW lamb at 25% protein but I chose Acana at 32% instead.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> It can take two weeks or more to see real results just keep him on that food. I wouldn't go high protein or grain free until he is about a year or so and when you do I would go no higher than 34%. My girl will be a year old next month and I was going to put her on TOTW lamb at 25% protein but I chose Acana at 32% instead.


thanks for da advice!

it is very tempting to put him back on da protein...honestly i think he looked a little fuller while on the Orijen.

but a wise man has to listen to da voice of experience on this one lol

btw u got ne mor pics of bella?


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

NoWuCmEnOwU... said:


> thanks for da advice!
> 
> it is very tempting to put him back on da protein...honestly i think he looked a little fuller while on the Orijen.
> 
> ...


You can add some salmon oil to his diet for added omega 3's for skin and coat as well as a little extra fat in his diet  I add yogurt and other supplements but your pup is to young for all that just yet. I think the yogurt would be okay though.

Of course! I have LOTS of pics LOL!! That's my baby girl  I will post a few links in here for you to see  give me a sec to find them.....

Here's some LOL! Probably overkill for you and you will be sorry you asked 
http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/37800-squirrel-hunting.html
http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/36228-bellas-conformation-blue-girl-green.html
http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/36755-shes-got-her-big-girl-pants.html
http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/38291-straight-up-rocks.html


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

NoWuCmEnOwU... said:


> so check this out now. Zorro been on bb lamb n rice adult for a couple days now.
> 
> Good news is his left paw is no longer knuckling!!!!:clap:
> 
> ...


That will happen... patients! Stick with the lower protein and make sure you re feeding 3 times a day and in a few weeks he will be fine


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> That will happen... patients! Stick with the lower protein and make sure you re feeding 3 times a day and in a few weeks he will be fine


thankyouuuu 4 the encouragement!!!!!

:hug:

im really glad dat im on this forum w yall!! ive poked around sum other ones just to visit...they aint got nothin on us!

well my zorro goes 2 da vet on Saturday for his 8 week check up. I wonder if he gon look @ me like im crazy if he asks wat food hes eating and i tell him adult lol

...u know how vets can b sumtimes,if they aint giving the advice...they aint w it. ..or maybe im jus paranoid lolup:


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

I will keep u posted.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

...just got bak from Zorros 8 wk vet visit. His last visit was @ 6wks and was weighing 4.6 now he weighing 8.3lbs.

vet said he looks good. i mentioned about da knuckling..he said it was the muscles n ligs out growing the bones (like u all have said) 

i mentioned the change from high protein pup food to 22% adult food...and he was whatever about it, and to NO SURPRISE...HE RECOMMENDS SCIENCE DIET OR ROYAL K9 (one day i will find a vet dat knows about true nutritional values). 

needless to say, he said no need to be alarmed unless it becomes really bad.

...here is a pic of zorro sleepin after chowing down as soon as getting bak from da vet today...he got da zzzzz's


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

awww what a cutiepie!i just wanna pick him up and hug him :hug:


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

dixieland said:


> awww what a cutiepie!i just wanna pick him up and hug him :hug:


thank uuu

...takes after his daddy lol


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

LOOKS LIKE HIS RIGHT PAW IS NO LONGER SHOWING ANY HEAVY KNUCKLING...AND LEFT PAW IS STILL LOOKING GOOD!! :roll:

but im still gonna keep him on the adult bb till about a year like u guys said...

I am starting to notice dat he is filling in w da 3 x 1 cup feedings a day  i knew he would love dat...thank u Lisa lol

i will post some new pics in the PM

time 4 sum


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Good job keep it up and your welcome


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

here are a couple of fresh shots of my little "apct"  taken 10 min ago.


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## NateDieselF4i (Sep 14, 2010)

Damn he is adorable. Starting to look like he's getting more comfortable with that leg. Looks like he might grow to be a little beefcake too! 

Keep up the good work.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

NateDieselF4i said:


> Damn he is adorable. Starting to look like he's getting more comfortable with that leg. Looks like he might grow to be a little beefcake too!
> 
> Keep up the good work.


lol thnx! 

..hopefully he will be, i had 1st pick of the litter w him so im rooting 4 genetics! lol ...a lil exercise once he gets older will help too 

..da only thing is on the bb lamb n rice...his  lookin kinda soft

...its not the runs or the "hershey squirts" (ala machO) lol but it aint da hardest snicker in the box.


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## NateDieselF4i (Sep 14, 2010)

We used Kelp Help on our Shepherds to help with their stools.

I give it to Kane now and some Salmon Oil as well on top of his food. He never had any digestion issues, but its good for them and he loves the taste.

Might be worth a shot. If it doesn't improve you could try a different formula as well. Some dogs don't do well with Lamb or Chicken or whatever. Although I'd probably stick to what you're doing for now.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

NateDieselF4i said:


> We used Kelp Help on our Shepherds to help with their stools.
> 
> I give it to Kane now and some Salmon Oil as well on top of his food. He never had any digestion issues, but its good for them and he loves the taste.
> 
> Might be worth a shot. If it doesn't improve you could try a different formula as well. Some dogs don't do well with Lamb or Chicken or whatever. Although I'd probably stick to what you're doing for now.


yea i think ima wait another week or so to c if it clears up. if not, maybe ill look into that Salmon oil.

thankz man!


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## Luvum (Nov 11, 2010)

NoWuCmEnOwU... said:


> here are a couple of fresh shots of my little "apct"  taken 10 min ago.


I do believe that is the cutest puppy I have ever seen.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

thanks  he is starting to knuckle up again..maybe going thru another growth spurt.

i know my 3yr old daughter can barely carry him ne more. she use to hold him like a stuffed teddy bear.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Ok, Zorro is now 13 weeks. His stool was abnormaly soft on the Adult Blue Buff Lamb and Rice.

However, after doing some more research on this issue. I know that most of you will not agree with me but I have decided to put Zorro back on Orijen and keep monitoring him as he grows. He has been back on Orijen for the past 3 weeks.

Immediately after putting him back on I noticed one paw began knuckling again.

But I decided to not make a knee jerk reaction and just wait to see if he gets over it...2 days later, it was well again  3 weeks later...no signs of knuckling but I am keeping a close watch on him.

I had emailed this issue to Orijen. I know they are going to say everything they can to defend their label...just thought that you guys would be interested in what they said...

Hello Ramon

Thank you for your email.

Despite the myths surrounding high protein foods, protein has no negative effect on skeletal development. .For more information in support of this statement I would suggest that you read the study, provided on the attached link, where a group of Great Danes fed a variety of different protein diets suffered no adverse effects on their skeletal development from consuming high protein diets.

http://files.championpetfoods.com/High_Protein_and_Large Breed_Study.pdf

There are many myths surrounding high protein diets and many of these have been perpetuated by the pet food industry itself. Protein does not affect skeletal development nor does it have any adverse affect on kidney function (another popular myth). It is often forgotten that dogs are carnivores in nature evolved to eat a variety of game and that this kid of diet is naturally high in protein. It is only because of mass marketing that we would even question the presence of meat in a carnivore's diet in favor of inappropriate ingredients such as corn and grain.

We believe that the best diet for all animals is the diet which they are biologically evolved to eat. The concept of our foods is that we provide a diet which best reflects what your pet would eat in the wild. We call this concept Biologically Appropriate.

Biologically Appropriate foods contain high and various inclusions of the fresh, whole meats that nature evolved dogs and cats to eat and exclude conventional pet food ingredients like high glycemic cereal grains and inappropriate vegetable proteins that simply do not belong in the natural diet.

The ORIJEN® families of products are made from fresh regional ingredients with no preservatives or grains and are designed to be biologically appropriate. This philosophy represents a new class of pet foods designed for dogs and cats in keeping with their evolutionary adaptation to meat and protein based diets.

The biologically appropriate concept represents a sound nutritional diet using high quality ingredients that are highly digestible (+/-92% for ORIJEN), and provide all the nutrition in a natural form without having to supply synthetic, less bio-available forms of the required nutrients because the main ingredients are not balanced appropriately. The concept is to make a diet balanced in as close a way as possible to what the wild version of these animals would eat in their environment within the limits of the dry kibble extrusion process.

Putting all this aside, rapid growth may have adverse effects on larger breed dogs. Rapid growth is brought on by higher fat content (like a mothers' milk) and higher caloric intake. For this reason we have developed our ORIJEN® Large breed puppy formula. We begin to classify a dog as being a large breed when they will reach 55lbs or greater at maturity. Your American Pit Bull puppy will likely be in this range so I would choose the ORIJEN® Large Breed Puppy formula. Although the ingredients in our ORIJEN® Puppy and ORIJEN® Large Breed Puppy formulas appear to be similar they are quite different in terms of their calorie and fat content.

The ORIJEN® Large Breed Puppy has significantly less calories by volume and also has reduced fat content as compared to our regular puppy formula. When you have a large breed dog you want to be concerned with controlling their rate of growth. You do not want them to grow so fast that the bones and joints do not have the time necessary to develop correctly. A reduced calorie & reduced fat diet helps to control the growth rate while its high protein content supports the development of lean muscle mass. The American Pit Bull breed is known for having higher than normal incidences of canine hip dysplasia and a controlled growth formula may help to reduce the risk of this disorder.

I would recommend that you start with the Large Breed Puppy formula until your puppy is at least eighteen months old and then you can feel free move on to one to the adult formulas.

If you have any additional questions or comments please feel free to contact us again.

Kind regards,

Christopher

Customer Care Representative

Champion Petfoods LP


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I would take his response with a grain of salt , comming from someone high in the company of course they want you to think its the best thing . { dont get me wrong i push for orijen in almost every case , BUT it is high protein and it does play a role in some dogs} Each dog will be different some can handle it better then others. If you want to switch back thats your decision but watch him carefully. Have you thought of trying acana? same brand but the protein is a bit lower. Also you said he had loose stools on the food you switched too , how long did you give him to adjust to it? sometimes it takes a bit ,id just be careful switching too much that can do more harm then good in the long run. Hope it all works out for you.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks Angel. He was on BB adult for about a month. Pooping 5 or 6 times a day very soft. When I switched him back over the stool was better almost instantly. But I have read almost every argument made on the cause of knuckling. 

I've came to the conclusion that every dogs growth spurts are different and you are correct in saying that high protein can have a different reaction on every dog.

I'm keeping a close eye on him. The past few weeks his been ok but he has many growth spurts to go...

Thanks again


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