# What to say to people who bring up HA dogs of the past?



## Bleu Clair (Jun 14, 2008)

I usually tell people who dub pit bulls as vicious people killers that the dogs were not bred to be aggressive with humans and that HA dogs were culled in the past, but I ran across someone who told me that, that is a myth started by Richard Stratton. This person brought up Chinaman, saying that he was a man biter and that he was bred and that many of today's dogs have Chinaman's blood in them (all of which I already knew) and used this as his proof. I researched the subject some and found that there are quite a few other people who state this too on non pit bull forums where the subject is pit bulls being aggressive toward people. One man said that pits should never be around children because of the myth that HA dogs were culled (not just not left alone with them, but not around them at all), another brought up pit dogs being matched against humans, another brought up Corvino's Blackie and said that they had to fence in the pit to keep him in 'cause he was was so dangerous, another brought up a dog (can't recall the name) that had to be carried in by three people and that his owner would throw him into the pit 'cause he was worried it would bite him, another brought up Bolio, another brought up two dogs that were very man and child aggressive (I can't recall which two) and another said that if a dog was a winner in the pit and was HA, it wouldn't be culled because they cared more about the money the dogs brought them (and that these dogs were bred despite being HA 'cause the pups would bring them money). I know a little about the dogs of the past, but not much. I've tried to educate myself the best I can on them (and still am) because I feel that knowledge is power and I like to know as much as I can about any breed I own, but some of these stories I'd never heard and because of that, I'd be at a loss in how to respond. Chinaman I know about, so I stood firm and stated that most HA dogs were culled, but then the guy said that bit about Chinaman being bred and his blood running through the veins of many of today's dogs and that could be part of the reason for the stories of HA dogs of today (which I don't believe for a minute....I seriously, of course, doubt Chinaman is the reason). 

My husband and I got in a discussion on what to say to someone like the one that was disagreeing with me and he thought I should ask more knowledgeable people, so I figured I'd ask you all so I could be better informed 'cause, like I said, I don't know everything about the dogs of the past. As far as I knew, most HA dogs of the past were culled, so what do I say in response to someone like the one I mentioned?


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Well I for one believe that not all dogmen culled the HA ones when they produced dead game dogs. The concept is correct though, it just wasn't all of them.
Even if you watch off the chain you can even be told the todays dogmen will not breed a man fighter. But if you think about it, it would be a huge shame to euthanize a seriously dead game dog because of a HA flaw..

You've got rep points coming, excellent post..


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

It does make sence thatthey would not cull a dog for being HA when it was winning in the pit. I guess that was the old days and now that we don't pit our dogs they are bred as a family dog that trait would be culled. So even if Chinaman was HA that trait could be bred out the dogs we have today by selective breeding for the traits we want to see in our dogs. 

It is an excellent post. Great food for thought.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

I could definitely see the HA factor being overlooked in order to keep a winning dog, and the only rebuttal that you may have for that is to say that those dogmen hopefully culled the next generation appropriately at the 1st sign of HA. 

I watched a documentary once about dogfighting from a magazine promo in NY. Forgot the name of it, but it was something to do with getting the real news from the streets and underground stuff, and they had about a 15 minute portion on it about dog fighting. And one of the dogs they showed was really HA (trying to attack the camera man) and the owner admitted it and said that they would have to keep her chained, and that she was probably like that, because she was a result of many inbreedings. They even showed how they "took care" of the "curs". This documentary I'm referring to was not that old, probably from early 2000's or late 90's.


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## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

I agree awesome food for thought. I also don't believe that they culled every dog being HA it only made them that more aggressive in the pit. With that they probly did breed the dog alot so I see where this guy is coming from. For the record I have been around some tight Bolio dogs and I never saw any kind of trait that would make me believe they were HA.


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## Bleu Clair (Jun 14, 2008)

Thank you for the rep points and thanks for the replies ! I hadn't heard of Corvino's Blackie, or a couple of others mentioned on those forums, and don't know much about Bolio (I still need to do more research). I figured that most HA dogs were culled back then and did know there were some manbiters that were kept and bred, but had no idea to what extent. I guess me and the guy I was talking with were both partially right. I know that most HA dogs today are culled, but got thrown for a loop when that guy dug his heals in and stated that all HA dogs of the past were not put down and that it's part of today's problem. I'm glad I stuck to my guns and insisted that most HA dogs are culled 'cause this guy was quite confrontational, saying I was one of Richard Stratton's believers. The funny thing is, I've never read Stratton's book and had no idea what the crap he was talking about-lol! It is good food for thought and am glad this guy and myself had that discussion and that I brought my question to this forum.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

This is a good thread.

I've always heard there were a few man-biters bred in the past. But, it wasn't a trait that was bred for. 

There will always be dogs that are bred with flaws. This is true in every genre of the species. The important thing to remember is that HA is a FLAW and even if it could be looked over in one dog that possessed a more important trait, it would have been selectively bred out of later litters while trying to maintain the gameness.


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## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" (Aug 7, 2008)

total rookie here and I'm not even sure I understand the acronyms above, but I thought that when they fought the dogs in the past that each opponents owner had to trade leashes to evidence that the dog had no human aggression (HA?) and that if the dog showed any aggression toward his/hers opponents owner that the dog was put down on the spot. Am I wrong in this?


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## Bleu Clair (Jun 14, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> This is a good thread.
> 
> I've always heard there were a few man-biters bred in the past. *But, it wasn't a trait that was bred for.
> *
> *There will always be dogs that are bred with flaws. This is true in every genre of the species. The important thing to remember is that HA is a FLAW and even if it could be looked over in one dog that possessed a more important trait, it would have been selectively bred out of later litters while trying to maintain the gameness.*




Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make with this guy. There are a lot of breeds with faults, but good breeders will breed the faults out. His kind of talk worried me because I don't know how many people he's said these things to. It concerns me because any person he speaks to, who doesn't know the breed and is of the belief that pit bulls are vicious man eaters, may just take what he says about dogs like Chinaman being the reason for HA dogs today and cares to research man biters (and there are a few man biters mentioned on the internet), as "Aha, I was right and this guy just proved it for me!" He made no attempt in backing down off the belief that today's HA dogs are a result of yesterday's dogs. He is a man who claims to love the breed, but I feel is being irresponsible by painting all pit bulls with one brush, so I have to wonder just where his head is at with this (probably up his butt). Then when I read the same thing being said by people who claim to know the breed on other forums (who are dubbing pit bulls as vicious), it really worried me. You just can't dub an entire breed vicious because of what some dogs in the past or today have done. It's scary to know there are people out there who claim to be on the breed's side that are saying these things.



RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" said:


> total rookie here and I'm not even sure I understand the acronyms above, but I thought that when they fought the dogs in the past that each opponents owner had to trade leashes to evidence that the dog had no human aggression (HA?) and that if the dog showed any aggression toward his/hers opponents owner that the dog was put down on the spot. Am I wrong in this?


I can't answer you 100% 'cause I'm still a rookie myself, but will try since no one has yet. I don't know anything about trading leashes, but do know that they washed each other's dogs (to be sure anything that maybe was rubbed on the dogs to put the fight in a dog's favor, was washed off). I don't know how they would handle this with a man biter though. I know that some of the dogs that bit where probably only redirecting their aggression 'cause they got so worked up over the sight of the other dog, once the dogs were faced, they would turn around and bite their handler if not released quick enough. I heard it said that if a dog bit the ref. that it would be culled on the spot. I have no clue how this would work with a few of the dogs I've researched 'cause they were said to be very manny (man biters). I still haven't researched Corvino's Blackie yet or heard of the story of how the dog had to be caged in the pit (but for what that person said on a non pit bull forum), but I did read about one dog, that I mentioned earlier, that had to be brought in by 3 people and his owner would throw him in the pit for fear of being bit (still can't remember the dog or owner, Carver?....I don't know, I can't recall off the top of my head), so I don't know how the handler of the opponent dog would be able to bathe him without being bit. You got it right, HA is human aggressive. There are many knowledgeable people on this forum who can better answer you, I'm just throwing out what little I know (or think I know-lol-as I'm still learning).


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## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

Blue Clair is right they would wash each other's dogs down to make sure fowl play wasn't going on so that brings up another question about HA dogs. How were they able to do these things with HA dogs and still get bit!???? Man this stuff could make your brain hurt!!!!


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Just going on listening to people talk, there are some modern-day dog fanciers who believe that certain types of HA are acceptable. One being the excite biter, who will bite the handler to try and get loose and get at whatever it is he's after (presumably another dog). It's been said that Chinaman was this kind of biter. I've also read an account which said he bit because he was sick and being roughly handled when the new owner was trying to get him out of a shipping crate. Bullyson and Zebo are two other dogs who were reported manbiters that were kept and bred. I don't know the story on Bullyson, but its said that Zebo would bite you for fun, or if you approached him on his chain spot. I've never met any of these dogs; just passing on what I've read.

One thing that could be said in defense of the breed is that even if a person can come up with 20 examples of manbiters, how many hundreds of thousands don't get a mention because they weren't? There is also the argument that any dog can be made to bite under the right circumstances, just like any dog can be made to quit. These are still just dogs, and undoubtedly manbiters have been kept and bred in all the breeds we have today.

ETA: I don't condone any form of HA, including excite biting. Just wanted to clarify that.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

****bump****


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I personally wouldn't cull an excite biter... A man biter yes any dog who bites without being provoked is a man biter and it wouldn't be tolerated on my yard now if it was back in the days when matching dogs was legal If I had a serious game dog like bullyson who was a man biter I would keep him ... An excite biter is a dog who bites out of excitement. You might have trouble taking those dogs to dog show's if they want to get to a dog bad enough they can redirect that aggression onto it's owner this is very common in excite biter's. Take's a certain type of handler to contain and properly manage those type of dogs.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> Just going on listening to people talk, there are some modern-day dog fanciers who believe that certain types of HA are acceptable. One being the excite biter, who will bite the handler to try and get loose and get at whatever it is he's after (presumably another dog). It's been said that Chinaman was this kind of biter. I've also read an account which said he bit because he was sick and being roughly handled when the new owner was trying to get him out of a shipping crate. Bullyson and Zebo are two other dogs who were reported manbiters that were kept and bred. I don't know the story on Bullyson, but its said that Zebo would bite you for fun, or if you approached him on his chain spot. I've never met any of these dogs; just passing on what I've read.
> 
> One thing that could be said in defense of the breed is that even if a person can come up with 20 examples of manbiters, how many hundreds of thousands don't get a mention because they weren't? There is also the argument that any dog can be made to bite under the right circumstances, just like any dog can be made to quit. These are still just dogs, and undoubtedly manbiters have been kept and bred in all the breeds we have today.
> 
> ETA: I don't condone any form of HA, including excite biting. Just wanted to clarify that.


This is a very old thread that was brought up but a good one.

One of the biggest things I would say with man bitters of the past is why the animal bit. As stated above they may not have bitten due to being just flat out HA.

For one look how many of these dogs where kept. Dogs that are constantly chained can make snappy dogs or aggressive dog when on the chain. I have seen many fine dogs turn into completely different dogs from minimal chaining and not even long times of chaining like most of the old fighting dogs where kept.

Also many of these yards housed 20+ dogs. I highly doubt all 20 dogs where properly raised and socialized.

Everyone knows manbiters happened. However as Bahmutt said as well for each one that did bite how many thousands don't? I would say that makes for a non HA breed. Your gonna have your dogs that go off in every breed. It happens.

Also as for breeding HA isn't necessary a trait that will pass down. If you have a dog that is just flat out aggressive than yeah maybe there is something genetically wrong, but if it is a issue that has been caused due to environment your dogs could have a full litter of perfectly fine puppies.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

What do you think about dogbitelaw.com not sure if this has been discussed previously but I thought it had some good info although they do mention pits,dobs, amd rots as warning signs


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

A dog that i would have to throw its food to i would not own, a dog that was an excite bitter OR who is a little funny with strangers i would keep, as you can control situations quite easily.


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## Dr.Q (Jan 12, 2010)

Richard F Stratton is a very good writer on the pitbull subject. When I was in the army, I went the base library and found a copy of the book ... The truth about the Pitbull terrier. I borowed it and when I got to the barracks, Some how that book was sined by Richard himself. When a person is spreading a myth with Richard stratton's name, we have a serious foe.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

mine gets a little mouthy but he still a puppyhe does get weird with strangers walking by our house though but when I'm walking him he just want to get petted by stangers


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> mine gets a little mouthy but he still a puppyhe does get weird with strangers walking by our house though but when I'm walking him he just want to get petted by stangers


What does he do? Grace will shy away if people try pet her, but i advise, just ignore her she will come to you in her own time, after 20minutes she is lying on thier lap with her legs in the air "rub my belly?" only once ever have i had the take her out of the room, a guy with a big beard and massive dreads came over, she had never seen anything like that before LOL


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

he just gets all puffed up and barks a bit and stare them down till I get his attention. I'm just watching it so it doent progress to far. dont mind him being watchfull just dont need him agressive. Anytime I have introduced him to anybody he fines. The mouthy part is when we are playing for the most part.
he hasnt done anything I would consider ha at all


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

dog fighters bred for gameness, not temperament. that is why you will see many examples of old dogmen breeding human aggressive dogs. this is true with most breeds of dog, not just the APBT. i have been around some belgian malinois dogs in law enforcement that will bite ANYONE that approaches them. if theyre good at what they do no one is gonna cull it.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> The mouthy part is when we are playing for the most part.
> he hasnt done anything I would consider ha at all


Bogart is extremely mouthy he's gotten better we are working on that .. but when excited or playing he mouths ALOT he will go for your hands and legs it used to be when you would touch him he would try and mouth you but his mother does it too and she is an adult bulldog. Your going to have to get a handle on that while the dog is still young so it doesn't continue. But some pups are more mouthy than other's. Mouthing in pups is normal but some are overly mouthy like bogart just have to use redirection and stay consistent to break them from that. Nothing hurts more than those sharp little puppy teeth nipping you I know LOL:roll:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Bogart is extremely mouthy he's gotten better we are working on that .. but when excited or playing he mouths ALOT he will go for your hands and legs it used to be when you would touch him he would try and mouth you but his mother does it too and she is an adult bulldog. Your going to have to get a handle on that while the dog is still young so it doesn't continue. But some pups are more mouthy than other's. Mouthing in pups is normal but some are overly mouthy like bogart just have to use redirection and stay consistent to break them from that. Nothing hurts more than those sharp little puppy teeth nipping you I know LOL:roll:


Just have to bite'em back LOL!! Seriously, pups and mouthing/biting go hand and hand IMO. There's always a line that shouldn't be crossed, and I think age plays a major part in their obedience. However, I enjoy a good "wrestling" match with my pups, and as they say, "mess with the bull, you get the horns"! You just have to know when play becomes something else, that's all This recognization comes when you have achieved a closeness with your pup and are comfortable reading his/her behavior.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't think I could own a dog that bit the hand that feeds it no matter what it was about or what breed it was but everyone has their tolerance with their own dogs you know? anyways...as for this whole thread I wish I can do a mass Rep points to everyone. lol! where is that button? xD


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I think in today's world a man biter should be culled there is obviously no place for one today... Back when matching dogs was legal if I had a quality bulldog that was a serious performer and produced well but was a man biter I personally wouldn't cull it. Some people think HA is a trait that can be passed on to the offspring but as someone mentioned today in another thread there were man biter's of the past chinaman being an example who were bred and none of the offspring were HA.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Ok I have not read all the responses but here are my thoughts. I personally tell people that the men who kept dogs that were HA just because they did well i the pit was wrong. Now chinaman wasn't a man eater, Tom Gardner had him for 2 years and never saw it in him, I have a buddy that played and handled Chinaman with no probs if he had been a man biter my friend wouldn't have an arm lol Also Honeybunch was not a man biter as some say, she was being defanged and that is not a man biter.

Please keep in mind that people will say anything to ash a certain line especially when they are whooping the other bloodlines in the box.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

RileyRoo said:


> I don't think I could own a dog that bit the hand that feeds it no matter what it was about or what breed it was but everyone has their tolerance with their own dogs you know? anyways...as for this whole thread I wish I can do a mass Rep points to everyone. lol! where is that button? xD


Isnt peaches a man biter?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I know zebo and bullyson were most def man biter's I have read conflicting stories about chinaman garner didn't actually own chinaman from my understanding and chinaman was def an excite biter he would nip to get at what he wanted so he needed some special handling ... But some have also said he was a man biter.


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