# does anyone know about these kennels



## nathanj (Jan 15, 2007)

http://www.petersonpitbull.com/
http://camelotpitbulls.com/
has anyone heard of them or seen there dogs and if so what do you think of them


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## DixieandSadie (Dec 10, 2006)

never heard of them...from looking around on their site their dogs are a little toooooo wide and short for my liking...


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

I personally wouldn't have anything from either of those kennels.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

They aren't pit bulls, I'll tell you that much.

A dog from Peterson's kennel actually came through a local rescue here not too long ago. He was owner surrendered, paperwork and everything. He had terrible, terrible hips. He was only about 3. His temperament was a little off as well.


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## Lisa3 (Aug 16, 2006)

yes, I've heard about the camelot blood line..it's deriving from old family reds (red boy ,cotthingam, clous, wilder) a pure breed never mixed with amstaff. Short and heavy dogs but amazingly agile, can jump up to two meters. Please dig further..I think it is wrong to say they are not APBT.
Ciao


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

Lisa3 said:


> yes, I've heard about the camelot blood line..it's deriving from old family reds (red boy ,cotthingam, clous, wilder) a pure breed never mixed with amstaff. Short and heavy dogs but amazingly agile, can jump up to two meters. Please dig further..I think it is wrong to say they are not APBT.
> Ciao


I completely agree with GSD those dogs have been crossed with other breeds and are far from a true APBT.

Here's a little info on OFRN.

It has often been claimed that geniuses, whether scientific, mathematical, or musical, were touched by a divine fire that made them special, but it also could be a curse because it seemed that geniuses were more likely to be plagued by madness than those of us of normal intelligence. Actually, there is a certain controversy regarding the latter supposition. It may just be that the mental illness of an otherwise normal person goes more unnoticed than that of someone who is famous because of genius capabilities.

But I am taking the phrase to refer to the Old Family Red Nose dogs. The red color of the nose and eyes is seemingly touched by a fire, albeit not divine. Similarly, there is much controversy about the grand old red nosed dogs. And like geniuses, the Old Family dogs have been considered by many dog men, including this one, to be something truly special.

One of the areas of misunderstanding is that many fanciers think that any Pit Bull which shows the red nose is a member of the Old Family Red Nose strain. Such is not the case, as many strains of dogs will occasionally throw a red-nosed pup or two. The term Old Family Red Nose refers to a particular family of dogs that was especially successful during the 40s, 50s, and 60s. They came from the old Lightner strain of the early part of the century. In fact, they were often called Lightner dogs, rather than the term that began to be used in the early 40s.

It was my privilege to know William J. Lightner and his wife, Mary, back in the 40s and 50s. I just wish I had known what questions to ask them. At that time, they lived in Colorado Springs, but this was at the tail end of a career in dogs that started way back in the 19th century. Lightner's father, grandfather, and his uncles had been raising a strain of dogs they had kept pure since before the Civil War. Mary Lightner was also a fan of the dogs, and she kept the pedigrees straight and handled the correspondence. Although the Lightner's were wonderful people and quite helpful to me, I was not aware of what high regard their dogs were held until I had been in the military and gotten to know a lot of the dog men across the country. Notables such as Bob Wallace, Bob Hemphill, Bert Clouse, and Leo Kinard, to mention just a few, were quite impressed that I knew Bill Lightner.

All of these people knew more than I did about the history of his dogs. They knew, for example, that there was a separate strain of dogs that Lightner had early in the century (having obtained them from his relatives), and these were very much sought after. Then there was what these dog men called the "latter day Lightner dogs." Even the most astute student wasn't sure where the later strain came from, but they felt that it was testament to Lightner's genius at breeding dogs that he could create yet another great strain. I asked Lightner about the first strain when I got back, and he said that he had gotten rid of them because he didn't like the color of the red nose. He also liked small dogs, and as far as he was concerned, the red-nosed dogs were running too large. Lightner was a giant of a man himself, and I had always been surprised by the big men, including Bert Clouse and Ham Morris, who liked their pit dogs on the small size. As a matter of fact, Lightner had been a renowned prizefighter in his time, and he had been good friends with some of the great old-time boxers, such as Jim Corbett (famous for beating John L. Sullivan).

I wish I had quizzed Lightner about the later dogs, but I surmised that they had been a blend of his old strain with some other quality line, and the rumor was that it consisted primarily of Colby dogs. But we are concerned with the early dogs here, as that was what produced the Old Family Red Nose strain.

While the Lightner family had never sold dogs, they sold off a few before the first World War, as the dog matching had subsided considerably in the area of Colorado in which they were living at that time. Al Dickinson of El Paso and Joe Peace were able to get some of these dogs, and they treasured them highly and kept the line going. These were primarily the large dogs that tended to show the red nose. When Joe Peace and Al Dickinson were both drafted during the World War, Red Howell took their dogs, and some of them went to Bourgeous in Louisiana. The men who used Lightner dogs to the extent that the Old Family Red Nose line became famous were Arthur Harvey and L. C. Owens of Amarillo, Texas. The breedings of these famous dog men produced many great dogs, including Hemphill's Golddust and Hemphill's Broke Jaw. A candidate for the best pit bitch of the century was Lightner's Speed. In 1926, she was bred to Allen's Fighting Tige to produce Harvey's Red Devil. Red Devil was the sire of Centipede and Golddust. Centipede was generally considered the greatest dog of his time. And he was 54 pounds pit weight, quite large even for today's dogs. With Lightner's predilection for small dogs, I can imagine the look on his face at raising these large dogs! The interesting thing here is that it was a very inbred strain that was producing such large dogs. In fact, it was probably inbreeding which produced the red nose and red eyes. These are recessive traits, and they are more likely to come to the surface in a program of heavy inbreeding.

Other dogs that helped make the red dogs famous were Ham Morris's Pinkie, Howell's Banjo, and William's Cyclone. Since there were so many good dogs coming from this line, they were quite naturally bred along family lines, and this tended to perpetuated the red nose, the red eyes, and the red toe nails that so distinguished this strain.

As you can imagine, dog men were not so sure how to take these most unusual-looking pit dogs. They were, after all, accustomed to small dogs of brindle and various other colorations. Some dog men, such as McClintock, Williams, Hemphill, and Wallace, came to specialize in this line. When dog men saw an entire kennel of such dogs, it was only natural to conclude that the dogs had been bred for appearance, but that was not the case. It was simply a matter of fact that a lot of great pit dogs of similar breeding had displayed the coloration. Since the colors were recessive to the more common colors, they were uniformly reproduced in all the progeny when these dogs were bred together.

Besides color, the red dogs showed other traits. In the pit, they were considered great ring generals, pacing themselves very well. They were smart dogs, and they used their intelligence in the pit. They were not really well known for a hard bite, but they could beat the dogs that had that trait. With their defensive prowess, they gave the hardbiting dogs nothing to bite but air. They wore them down and then went in for the kill. Great endurance was also a trait of these dogs, but they were most renowned for their incredible gameness. Another trait they were know for was that they could be crossed with nearly any line and produce bone-crushing pit dogs. Because of this very trait, not many dog men elected to breed them pure.

To this very day, the red nose dogs remain quite controversial. For one thing, they are nearly always popular with neophytes, as they don't look like the "mongrels with the mumps" that pit dogs have been so often called. The red nose and concomitant coloration marks them as something special in anyone's eyes. But that is not necessarily a good thing, for dog peddlers tend to breed dogs with this coloration that have no claim to even being related to the true Old Family Red Nose dogs. Of course, all papers can be faked, but a dog of this line should trace back to Harvey's Red Devil and Lightner's Vick some place.

I can talk about the Old Family Red Nose dogs with some authority, as I knew so many of the people associated with them. But I can also do so objectively, for my present lot of dogs doesn't have a red nose among them. Nevertheless, the blood of those dogs runs in their veins. Wallace's Bad Red is back there. Most of my dogs are down from Grand Champion Hope, who was sired by the immortal Tombstone. Most of the dogs that I have had turn out well for me were down from Tombstone. So that means I have gotten away from the original OFRN dogs, right? Well, not exactly. You see, Tombstone was mostly OFRN breeding, top and bottom. The immortal Black Widow, for example, was three quarters OFRN, even though she herself was black in coloration. And she was Tombstone's paternal grand dam, while his mother was very heavy red nose.

Tombstone's influence has been mighty all across the country, and this is all the more remarkable when it is considered how few times he was bred as compared to so many other vaunted sires. Recently some fine dog men who were natives of Mexico brought a descendent of Tombstone's for me to see. I was thunderstruck when they got the dog out of the van. Before my eyes was an absolute reincarnation of the Old Family Red Nose dogs I had seen back in Wallace's place (and those of other dog men, too) back in the 50s. The dog was Champion Boiler, a three-time winner, and when I saw video tapes of his matches, I was all the more enchanted. His style was exactly that of the old dogs. Take them where they want to go, but keep the mouth from doing any damage. Wear them down, all the while laying on damage, a bit at a time. And Boiler had exactly the same intelligence and attitude of the old dogs. The visit was so striking for me that it inspired this article.


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

I am frequently asked about the OFRN dogs. A lot of people want a pure dog of that strain. Well, the original strain was an amalgamation of several lines, including Colby (from Tige’s sire, among other sources), so I often am overly literal by saying that I don’t know of any pure lines left. But the fact is that these dogs are still around. There are still breeders that specialize in them. The challenge is to find the ones which are quality bred.

Bob Wallace used to refer to the red nose as a "badge of courage," and he mentioned friends that referred to them as "traffic stoppers." I’m like Lightner in that I didn’t like the looks of them when I first saw them, but some of Bob’s enthusiasm rubbed off on me. There really is something special about the line. I’m not trying to say they are the best, but they are as good as the best. Sometimes it seems as though they truly were touched by a big of magical fire.


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## Lisa3 (Aug 16, 2006)

Do not fail to confuse OFRN with old family reds..old family reds defines the ancient irish breed, while OFRN is much more recent bloodline started as you mentioned by William J. Lightner but the first to call it with this name was that nice fellow and great dogman named Dan McCoy.
Please someone help to clear up a bit this interesting issue:roll: 
Ciao


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

I might be going off on a limb here, but what does that look like to you? Certainly not an American Pit Bull Terrier.

Regardless, assume that these dogs are infact pure*, let us take a look at the breeding program that is producing them.

The dogs of Camelot Pit Bulls are built terribly. Very, very out at the shoulders; I'd be surprised if they weren't crippled from elbow dysplasia early on. And since the breeder does not health test, you are safe to assume that there is some major structural issues at hand (Paticulary with that build!). They are too stocky and massive to be of any real working value- And ability to excel at almost every sport is classic of the APBT.

They have *10* planned breedings, 3 of which have taken place. At this point in time, reputable breeders _rarely_ breed, and they do breed to sell.

That is 10 breedings of poorly built dogs that have done nothing to prove their merit. No titles (Neither work nor show), no health tests (A must with that build!), advertising head size and chest width (A classic sign of a BYB), and numerous breedings. You can rest assured that Camelot Pit Bulls is, in fact, a BYB.

As far as Peteron's Pit Bulls, they are just as "reputable" as Camelot. Not only are they overbreeding poor examples of the APBT, but they are also breeding: Chihuahuas, pugs, Boston terriers, English bulldogs, and Alapaha bulldogs. Hmm, puppy mill anyone? A reputable breeder has one breed, and sticks to it. It's time consuming and (very) expensive to breed ONE litter of ONE breed right. How can they be doing this with 6 breeds and multiple litters? The wrong way, of course.

And, to boot... This dog:










Bears a strong resemblance to my APBT/English bulldog mix:










*They very well could be purebred. In fact, I've seen some decent looking dogs of Camelot origins. However, one cannot deny that they are very poorly bred (You only need to look!). The reason these lines are so disliked is because they are bred for the wrong reasons, by people who shouldn't be breeding gold fish let alone dogs.


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

Maybe this will help clear things up for you.

He looks no more out of place in the Ancient landscapes of 16th century paintings than he does in the ultramodern setting. It is beyond my capabilities to imagine an end to him, for every generation seems to supply a nucleus of hard core devotees completely committed to the breed. In any case, you can look into the murky past, and you will find it difficult to discern a beginning place for the breed and fortunately, the future seems to threaten no demise either. 

Old strains are a particularly fascinating part of this tradition, and the Old Family Red Nose is one of the better-known old strains. The appearance of the red-nosed dogs always attracts attention, but it takes a little getting used to for some people to consider them truly beautiful. However no one denies that they radiate "class." 

Characteristically, a dog of the red-nosed strain has a copper-red nose, red lips, red toe nails, and red or amber eyes. Some think the strain was bred for looks. Others consider any dog that just happens to have a red nose to be pure Old Family Red Nose. It is hoped that the following will dispel such notions. About the middle of the last century, there was a family of pit dogs in Ireland bred and fought chiefly in the counties of Cork and Kerry that were known as the "Old Family." In those days, pedigrees were privately kept and jealously guarded. Purity of the strains was emphasized to the extent that breeders hardly recognized another strain as being the same breed. For that reason all the strains were closely inbred. And whenever you have a closed genetic pool of that type, you are likely to have a slide toward the recessive traits, because the dominants, once discarded, are never recaptured. Since red is recessive to all colors but white, the "Old Family" eventually became the "Old Family Reds." When the dogs began coming to America, many were already beginning to show the red nose. 

The "Old Family" dogs found their way to America mainly via immigrants. For example, Jim Corcoran came to this country to fight the World Heavyweight champion John L. Sullivan, and stayed to become a Boston policeman. He sent for dogs from his parents back in Ireland, and his importations and expertise as a great breeder have earned him a prominent place in American Pit Bull Terrier history. Many other Irish immigrants also sent back to their families to request for dogs, and the "Old Family" and related strains became firmly established in the United States. 

At this point, there are several factors that are somewhat confusing to a student of the breed. For one thing, the term "Family dogs" was used in two ways: It could mean a strain of dogs that was a family unto itself that was kept by a number of unrelated people in Ireland, or it could refer to a strain of dogs that was kept and preserved through the years by a family group. However, the old Family Reds seem to be of the first category. Another point that arises is that with all these importations from Ireland (and there were importations from other countries, too-including Spain), where do we get off calling our breed the American Pit Bull Terrier! Well ... That's a point! The breed does not really belong to any one country or even any one era! However, I don't believe many people are in favor of changing the name of the breed even though it is not strictly an American breed. For that matter, , it is not really a Bull Terrier either! But the name American Pit Bull Terrier has become part of that tradition we were talking about, and I think most of us prefer to keep it as a formal name for the breed. 
Back to the Old Family Reds. The first big splash made by the red noses was back around 1900 when the great breeder William J. Lightner, utilizing Old Family Red bloodlines, came up with some red-nosed dogs that really made a name for themselves. Now Lightner once told me that he did not breed for that red-nosed coloration. In fact, he did not even like it and he only put up with it because the individual dogs were of such high quality. Eventually, Lightner gave up on the red-nosed strain when he moved from Louisiana to Colorado, where he came up with a new strain that consisted of small dark-colored dogs with black noses. He had given up on the other strain because they were running too big for his taste and because he didn't like the red noses. 

At this point in our story, we come upon a comical, but highly-respected, figure in the personage of Dan McCoy. I have heard old-time dog men from all over the country talk about this man. Apparently, he was an itinerant fry cook and not much of a success in life judged by normal standards, but he didn't care about that. But what he did care about were Pit Bull Dogs, and he had a wealth of knowledge about the breed. His uncanny ability to make breedings that "clicked" made him a respected breeding consultant and a most welcome guest at any dog man's house--even if he had just dropped off a freight train!
Always with his ear to the ground regarding anything that involved APBT's, McCoy got wind of the fact that an old Frenchman in Louisiana by the name of Bourgeous had preserved the old Lightner red-nosed strain. So he and Bob Hemphill went to that area, and with the aid of Gaboon Trahan of Lafayette, they secured what was left of the dogs. McCoy took his share to the Panhandle of Texas and placed them with his associates L.C. Owens, Arthur Harvey, and Buck Moon. He then played a principal role in directing the breedings that were made by these fanciers. And from this enclave came such celebrated dogs as Harvey's "Red Devil" and Owens (Ferguson) "Centipede." Hemphill eventually kept only dogs of the red-nosed strain. According to Hemphill, it was McCoy that first starting using the term "Old Family Red Nose" for the strain. 

Another breeder who was almost synonymous with the red-nosed strain was Bob Wallace. However, Bob's basic bloodlines was not pure Old Family Red Nose. But in the late 40's, he was looking for the red-nosed strain in order to make an "outcross.." (Bob was a scrupulously careful breeder who planned his breedings years in advance.) Unfortunately, he found that the strain was nearly gone, most of it having been ruined by careless breedings. He managed to obtain seven pure red-noses of high quality whose pedigrees he could authenticate. The strain was subsequently saved for posterity and in the 1950's became the fashionable strain in Pit Bull circles. In fact, it was Bob Wallace who wrote an article in 1953 called "There is no magic in Red Noses" in which he tried to put a damper on the overly enthusiastic claims being made by some of the admirers of the strain. No more fervent admirer of the Old Family Reds ever lived than Wallace, but he obviously felt that the strain could stand on its own merits. 

Many strain have been crossed with the Old Family Reds at some time in their existence. Consequently, nearly any strain will occasionally throw a red-nosed pup. To many fanciers, these red-nosed individuals are Old Family Red Noses, even though the great preponderance of their blood is that of other strains. Sometimes such individuals will fail to measure up and thereby reflect undeserved discredit on the red-nosed strain. However, as Wallace said, the red noses should not be considered invincible either. They produce their share of bad ones as well as good ones--just as all strains do. 
As a strain, the Old Family Red Nose has several things going for it. First, it is renowned for its gameness. Second, some of the most reputable breeders in all Pit Bull History have contributed to the preservation and development of the strain. People like Lightner, McClintock, Menefee and Wallace, just to mention a few. Finally, as McNolty said in his 30-30 Journal (1967) "Regardless of one's historical perspective, these old amber-eyed, red-nosed, red-toe-nailed, red-coated dogs represent some of the most significant pit bull history and tradition that stands on four legs today."


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

both are bogus apbts.camalot put out a few working dogs and thats more than i can say for most other fake lines,petersons looks like there breeding whopper line dogs to over done blues which really sucks.any breeder that breeds dogs that were historicly working dogs only for looks is a worthless one.....


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## Lisa3 (Aug 16, 2006)

Thank you Bully..now it is clear the definition of Old Family Reds and OFRN.
Regarding the Camelot line, I post pic's of two nice dogs..standard ADBA to me..is it possible that this line has been spoiled from some breeders?
Ciaoupruns:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

How old are those photos?


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## Lisa3 (Aug 16, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> How old are those photos?


I cannot tell ...yet I think it is of some interest to see the way originally looked this blood line. Maybe one of you breeders wishes to restore the original and apparently lost traits of the Camelot's dog ...isn't the name of this bloodline wonderful?upruns:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

Hmm, that's a nice thought. I can't think of any good breeders producing Camelot dogs, but I have seen a few true-to-type examples from that line.


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## Lisa3 (Aug 16, 2006)

this one is in a very good shape and I like it a lot:woof:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

I think the camalot blood line is alot like the eddington bloodline in one way,there was a time when both lines produced small or standard type apbts and switched to the biggger dogs and out crossing[to other breeds] for some reason or another...


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## Runner (Apr 20, 2007)

Sorry to tell you that Camelot pitbulls is not Camelot Kennel...two different stories...


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