# Blue GRCH



## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Ok, So I have heard from what I consider to be a reputable source but have not done much looking myself so I want to hear from you all and collaborate on you have.
Were there ever any blue GRCH APBT's? I know if you look up blue pauls it refers to them as pit dogs but that is about it..

People refer to the color blue as that of being a staff color and I am hoping to shed a little light on the matter..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I think it's really hard to say... The apbt/staffordshire/amstaff were once the same dog and some may consider them the same breed today bred for a different purpose I have heard there were blue grch maybe not as many but their were some. Here is some Info I found on Blue Paul seems these dogs were bad ass in the sport from what I have read they were not to be messed with in the pit

The true heritage of the Scottish Blue Paul is unclear. One of the theories claims that it was developed from old English mastiffs and European bull-terriers by the pirate Paul Jones in the 1770's, while others trace its roots to the dogs created by Scottish Gypsies from common pit dogs crossed with blue Greyhounds and Indian Poligar Hounds. A separate strain of smaller red-coated dogs was known as the Scottish Red Smut and was bred away from the Blue Poll Bulldogge in the early 1800's.

*Larger and more vicious than other fighting dogs of its time, the Blue Paul was reportedly impossible to defeat in the pits.* With the demise of fighting and baiting sports, the breed finally became extinct in its homeland during the last decade of the 19th century, but not before influencing certain bloodlines of Irish game dogs, creating a blue variety within the Irish Staffordshire Bullterrier. A small number of Blue Paul Bullterriers was introduced to the United States by Scottish and Irish immigrants, where they became assimilated into the bloodlines of early American fighting dogs. In recent years, some fanciers attempted to trace all blue-coated American Pit Bull Terriers to the legendary Glasgow dogs, but this theory hasn't been proven. The coat came in a wide range of blue-based colourings, including solid blue, blue with white markings, blue-n-tan, as well as a variety of blue merles and tricolours. Average height was around 23 inches.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Blue Paul More Info :

Appearance

The Blue Paul Terrier resembled our contemporary pit dogs. They had a smooth coat and were powerfully built. They weighed about 20 kg and measured up to 50 cm at the withers. The head was large; the forehead was flat, muscle short and square, large and broad but not receding like that of the Bulldog. The jaws and teeth were even with no overchanging flews. They had a slight dip between the eyes, which were dark hazel and not sunken, prominent, nor showing haw. The ears were small, thin, set on high, and invariably cropped, and the face was not wrinkled. The eyebrows contracted or knit. The facial expression of the Blue Paul has never been seen in any other breed and can frequently be recognized in mixed-breed dogs. The body was round and well ribbed up, its back short, broad, and muscular but not roached, and its chest deep and wide. The tail was set low and devoid of fringe, rather drooping and never rising above the back. The dog stood straight and firmly on its legs. Its forelegs were stout and muscular, showing no curve. The hind legs were very thick and strong, with well-developed muscles. The colour was dark blue as can be seen in Greyhounds; however, they sometimes produced brindles or reds, which were known as red smuts in Scotland.

History

No one seems to have full knowledge as to how the Blue Pauls were bred or from where they originally came. There was a story that John Paul Jones, the American sailor, brought them from abroad and landed some when he visited his native town of Kirkcudbright about 1770. The gypsies around the Kin Tilloch district kept Blue Pauls, which they fought for their own amusement. They were game to the death and could suffer much punishment. They were expert and tricky in their fighting tactics, which made them great favorites with those who indulged in this sport. They maintained that the breed originally came from the Galloway coast, which lends support to the Paul Jones legend. The first dogs to arrive in the United States with the English immigrants in the mid-19th century were the Blue Paul Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

Breeding

*With his excellent fighting skills, the Blue Paul was introduced as part of Staffordshire Bull Terrier breeding in the early 19th century and the blue colouring has appeared in Staffords ever since, in particular, the Blue Staffordshire Bull Terrier.**It has also appeared in Pitbulls and a bluetick coloration also appears due to inbreeding.*


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## shadyridgekennels (Oct 14, 2005)

okay here is a blue gr champion box dog. he is in mexico.
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Nice Erin .. Also Nice looking dog I like that pedigree nice mix of lines :cheers:


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## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

I have never seen a blue dog with that kind of conformation. It was great just to get to look at his picture. I would love to see that dog in person!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I have seen a few blue dogs that looked like that it's just you don't see them as much because bully breeder's have faded them out into hippo's. But I have seen some nice looking blue apbt's. I wish there were more like this. It's a shame:rain:

Just an Example I have 2 blues a blue and a blue fawn both adba came from the same litter and a byb at that and guess what.. I would be damn proud to take these 2 into the adba and show them and they look damn good compared to a lot of the blue dogs I have seen granted they are still pups but they are growing up very nicely and IMO well put together I would show them adba in a heart beat. And they are still pups so I can't work them and condition them like I want to right now because I am letting them be pups but there is nothing bully about these two just goes to show they are out there.








Blue Fawn








Blue

And I would just like to say Look out for sadie ember and simba because I am going to be showing them soon in the adba. they want to play too


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

A blue dog we produced (Rellik x Bella) owned by Mountain Top Kennels took 2 firsts at the adba show in KY this past weekend and took best in show puppy on Sunday! He has GREAT confirmation but I still couldnt believe it out of a blue dog!!! He has over 40 show points at 8 months old! I'll get them to send some pics of him for me to post.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> A blue dog we produced (Rellik x Bella) owned by Mountain Top Kennels took 2 firsts at the adba show in KY this past weekend and took best in show puppy on Sunday! He has GREAT confirmation but I still couldnt believe it out of a blue dog!!! He has over 40 show points at 8 months old! I'll get them to send some pics of him for me to post.


Yes please do! It's always great to see well bred blue dogs. I can't wait to see yours.


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

To get a true blue, without breeding for color specifically, is more rare than other colors in general. It would be a bit rare to take two dogs who are not phenotype "dd" (recessive wild gene for "blue") to throw a "blue pup". You would need to know the genotype (the real dog genetic makeup) to predict that occurance. That is probably why BYBs like to advertise a "RARE BLUENOSE" and charge more for that pup. Two phenotype (outwardly visible) black dogs can throw a blue pup if they both had one "d" at the loci and the haploid stand of DNA from each dog had the "d" gene. If those two strands make up the zygote (egg/sperm), then you will get a blue dog.









Ch Lylane Blue Tango-Elizabeth Tregoning owner


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I know that my breeder's last litter threw a wide variety of color seal/fawn/blue/and even red my pups the litter sadie and simba are from was a mix of color's. Mom is chocolate/red dad is a blue brindle. I don't know how it played out as far as the genotype.. but I can say the breeder my 2 pups came from the dam and sire did not throw a whole litter of blues sadie was the only blue out her litter sometimes he gets them and sometimes he does not. And I have seen a few of his litter's so he def does not breed blue dogs on a consistent basis but I imagine if dad is a blue brindle he could easily throw some blues in a litter.


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

Well a Blue Brindle would most likely be Ay-B-dd-Ebr...Dominant Yellow (brindle needs a light color to exhibit the phenotype)-B (Dominant Black)-dd (Double Recessive to get Blue-modifies eumelanin (dark pigment distribution) in the hair folicles-Ebr (Extension that shows the brindle pattern on lighter folicles)

The Chocolate/Red would most likely be As-bb-Dd...Dominant Black (makes for a solid coat color)-bb (brown or red depending on other factors)-Dd (shows full density of color without dillution)

Both these are still abbreviated a bit without any other information...there are 9 Loci (locations) that affect coat color in the APBT, but the ones listed above would most likely be the important ones in this case. A Blue Dog would in simple terms be at least Bbdd or BBdd...so your pup would be As-Bb-dd...pretty kewl, Huh?


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

DieselDawg said:


> To get a true blue, without breeding for color specifically, is more rare than other colors in general. It would be a bit rare to take two dogs who are not phenotype "dd" (recessive wild gene for "blue") to throw a "blue pup". You would need to know the genotype (the real dog genetic makeup) to predict that occurance. That is probably why BYBs like to advertise a "RARE BLUENOSE" and charge more for that pup. Two phenotype (outwardly visible) black dogs can throw a blue pup if they both had one "d" at the loci and the haploid stand of DNA from each dog had the "d" gene. If those two strands make up the zygote (egg/sperm), then you will get a blue dog.


Our two Rocky x Jazzy breedings always produced 1 blue male in each litter. They were both red dogs.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

SadieBlues said:


> Yes please do! It's always great to see well bred blue dogs. I can't wait to see yours.


This is Rellik. Dad to the best in show pup. He is off of Apache x Rarity.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Very Nice!!!:clap:


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

I'M SORRY IN ADVANCE THAT THIS IS A LOCK-UP PIC!!! THIS IS THE ONLY PIC OF RARITY I HAVE ON MY LAPTOP!!!

Apache x Rarity. Apache is Blue Jax x Tessa, Rarity is Blue Jax x Blue Phelany. This is what produced Rellik.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Very Nice I like both but apache has caught my eyes I like her size they all are great looking blues  My girl now is going through this stage where she has legs for days seems like they sprouted overnight Its also good to see a blue dog with legs LOL


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

And this is Blue Jax


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

SadieBlues said:


> Very Nice I like both but apache has caught my eyes I like her size they all are great looking blues


Apache is the black/white male. Rarity is the smaller blue female!


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

This is Blue Bella. Belly sister to Rellik and mother to Katphish.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Last one for now. This is Mugen. Brother to Rellik & Blue Bella. I'll try to get some pics of Boo Boo posted.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Apache is the black/white male. Rarity is the smaller blue female!


He looked dark grey but going back now I can see the black LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

DieselDawg said:


> Well a Blue Brindle would most likely be Ay-B-dd-Ebr...Dominant Yellow (brindle needs a light color to exhibit the phenotype)-B (Dominant Black)-dd (Double Recessive to get Blue-modifies eumelanin (dark pigment distribution) in the hair folicles-Ebr (Extension that shows the brindle pattern on lighter folicles)
> 
> The Chocolate/Red would most likely be As-bb-Dd...Dominant Black (makes for a solid coat color)-bb (brown or red depending on other factors)-Dd (shows full density of color without dillution)
> 
> Both these are still abbreviated a bit without any other information...there are 9 Loci (locations) that affect coat color in the APBT, but the ones listed above would most likely be the important ones in this case. A Blue Dog would in simple terms be at least Bbdd or BBdd...so your pup would be As-Bb-dd...pretty kewl, Huh?


Wow diesel dog you broke it down LOL .. that's really cool thanks :angel:


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

Here is Diesel at 9 months...









and 1 year...









He is most likely a genotype of As-Bb-dd-si (The "si" is the "Irish Spotting" which shows as a white chest, white paws, white head blaze, white tip tail (even just a few hairs) and can have white muzzle and some white on the back of the neck)...


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

SadieBlues said:


> He looked dark grey but going back now I can see the black LOL


Funny thing is when he was born we registered him as a blue. As he aged he got darker and darker until he was black! Now certain times of the year he will get a reddish tint to his coat (seal) and almost get a bit of brindle! Craziest thing i've ever seen!


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

DieselDawg said:


> Here is Diesel at 9 months...


Wow, he looks alot like our stuff. What are his bloodlines?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Funny thing is when he was born we registered him as a blue. As he aged he got darker and darker until he was black! Now certain times of the year he will get a reddish tint to his coat (seal) and almost get a bit of brindle! Craziest thing i've ever seen!


Ha yeah that's funny sadie started off lighter and has gotten really dark like a deep midnight blue .. I say she is blue-black HEHEHEHEHEHE:cheers:


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Wow, he looks alot like our stuff. What are his bloodlines?


I was just abou too ask theame thing.


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## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

Aww!! Keep talking I'm fueling up for my next argument on blue dogs. I like any color dog but it seems that the blue gets me everytime! My other dog friends frown upon blue dogs and are always giving me hard time for liking the blue guys.


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

Well just let them know there are true APBT Blue Dogs...but they don't come around as often as other colors.

Then let them know there are plenty of "bluedogs" that are breed solely for color without regard to the "whole dog" and they are a dime a dozen...problem is there are a dozen people that get the decimal place mixed up and go from $00.10 to $1000.


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## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

Easier said than actually done especially to these guys. I just let it in one ear and out the other.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Hey Pitbullgirl22

I can't imagine what you hear LOL ... when I first joined this forum I thought from reading through here that the color blue was the anti-christ in apbt's dogs or if your dog was blue it was a bully and I have 2 that are blue and look nothing like a bully. But I started to read on my own and found out that there are blue apbt's out there and actually I found out too that inbreeding and line breeding have also contributed to producing blue dogs which is why I am sure even game-bred dog litter's have thrown blues because some of the best bred dogs are produced off line-breeding/inbreeding now many of them may have been culled by older dogger's but they still existed and are still being bred and popping up in litter's today. I think from the pictures posted here by a few of us it's obvious that there are blue apbt's and well bred ones at that! I love this topic as well and I love to show off my blue dogs when someone has something bad to say about blue dogs I get the sudden urge to post pitcures I am proud of my blue dogs and wouldn't trade them for anything !!! After all blue is just a color just like any other dog color LOL .


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

I always think it is a little ironic when the same people who bad mouth ANY blue dog and jump on anyone that says "I have a bluenose pit bull"...are the same ones who comment that blue is just a color but in another thread they are the same ones who will only own a "rednose" and think that all "rednose pit bulls" are somehow decendants of OFRNs from the past. I also see the ones that show a piebald dog with brindle markings and others tell them what a beautiful Colby you have there. For the moment, bluedogs are cursed by the almighty dollar, but that does not make all bluedogs off limits in my book.

Heck, bluenose, rednose, brindle ect. are just ways to distinguish a dog and give the reader an idea of the look...that is all.

If I tell you I have a mostly white dog with brown/black brindle patches, you get an image in your mind of what that dog looks like...but for some if you say I have a bluenose, some immediately see a huge head, short legged, fat not fit dog and want to discount all blue coat dogs.


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## GnarlyBlue (Aug 18, 2007)

*1st apbt awarded national Best o' Breed*

Or at least thats What Janice Snyder of Nevada Kennels says:

NBOB GRCH Nevada's Mystic Sudden Impact CGC DNA-P OFAgood







I know thats no slouch of a dog regardless of color.. Nevada has several grch blues and other colors that also happen to be in my girls line:clap:


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

I was speaking of GRCH by means of the box, but carry on...


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

ericschevy said:


> I was speaking of GRCH by means of the box, but carry on...


I knew that! It somehow evolved into show!

I cant think of any grch, but defiently a few ch's.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

DieselDawg said:


> I always think it is a little ironic when the same people who bad mouth ANY blue dog and jump on anyone that says "I have a bluenose pit bull"...are the same ones who comment that blue is just a color but in another thread they are the same ones who will only own a "rednose" and think that all "rednose pit bulls" are somehow decendants of OFRNs from the past. I also see the ones that show a piebald dog with brindle markings and others tell them what a beautiful Colby you have there. For the moment, bluedogs are cursed by the almighty dollar, but that does not make all bluedogs off limits in my book.
> 
> Heck, bluenose, rednose, brindle ect. are just ways to distinguish a dog and give the reader an idea of the look...that is all.
> 
> If I tell you I have a mostly white dog with brown/black brindle patches, you get an image in your mind of what that dog looks like...but for some if you say I have a bluenose, some immediately see a huge head, short legged, fat not fit dog and want to discount all blue coat dogs.


Finally someone has said it desiel I agree with everything you have said !!! I have heard the arguements and while some may have a point a lot of them are not factual and almost predjiduce LOL. And I agree the first time a good looking blue dog comes around people will immediatley try and find some sort of fault to put the dog down or in the category with a bully or say something negative because of the sterotype's floating around. That to me is a shame considering the fact that even the adba recognizes blue as an acceptable color in the apbt. Someone on here said sadie is big LOL she is hardly big at all and anyone with eyes can see that she is also in porportion but because she is blue that sparks some sort of assumption. The only fact I have seen regarding blue dogs is that bully breeders have pimped them out in their lines other than that blue is a recessive trait that can and does show up in apbt litter's all the time and then you add line breeding and inbreeding and your bound to see blue show up as well. I am still trying to understand how the hell a color makes a dog inferior LOL how does the color blue stop a dog from exceeding in anything a red dog can do? Give me a break that sounds so dumb it's not a very bright or logical thought and it makes no sense at all to suggest that color can affect a dogs worth or ability to preform to it's standards and I am sorry but anyone that thinks that it does is an idiot in my book.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Yeah well...... My dog can kick your dogs ass! And if that doesn't work I'ma get my big brother to beat yours up! Yeah! 


Getcho Money Right!


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

Well good blue dogs are harder to get from a bloodline that has been bred, linebred or inbred, because the bloodline becomes homozygous. For instance a breeder who finds he has two black dogs (just happened to be black) and linebreeds or inbreeds them to strengthen the propensity for certain characteristics...ends up with a homozygous bloodline that will have As-BB (totally dominant black) every time and blues will not throw from these breeding...but once he outbreeds to another bloodline, the new pups can be hetrozygous (As-Bb or something similiar) and blues may throw in a litter or two as long as the "d" is present in both the sire and dam..


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Has there been a blue grch combat dog?
the answer is no!
Also a blue apbt with no am staff blood is in fact very rare,so rare it has never even been photographed,lol.......


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

TO my knowledge there are no known blue GRCH dogs. Reason being is the mentality of the doggers out there. Now that it is no longer legal you probably wont have any. If it was legal today, I would say you would have several out there.

Cane I know you have posted this before,, I just could not find where, but what is YOUR opinion on the history on the development of the APBT? Do you think that the AMSTAFF and the APBT were never the same dog? You make that statement ALOT.


> Also a blue apbt with no am staff blood .


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

ofk,
as you know even today the dogs are registered as the same breed depending on the k.c they are papered under.
The dogs of yesterday,prior to 1936 or even a few decades afterwords were basically the same dogs[amstaf apbt],but its my belief that todays amstaff and todays apbt[gamebred]are to diffrent breeds as well as duel reisted dogs who to me regardless of size or over done aesthetic are basically am bullys.
I also have a theroy that many have disagreed with,but i stand too it,
Blue is the trait of a closed genetic pool,or genetic depresion due to inbreeding,jmo.
Im not stating this as absolute ceartin fact,its just my belief,after all this is how red nose
started so why wouldnt it be the same with blue nose dogs?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I agree with you as far as the origin. Reason I ask is, wouldn't it be true to say then that ALL APBT have amstaff in their pegiree somwehere, not just blue ones?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> I agree with you as far as the origin. Reason I ask is, wouldn't it be true to say then that ALL APBT have amstaff in their pegiree somwehere, not just blue ones?


I'd say its the other way around,all "amstaffs" have "apbt" in there pedigree!
And for the record im a big,big fan of the amstaff,especially the old lines,white rock,ruffian,tacoma,etc.
I do have a problem with the trendy"ultimate apbt strains" of amstaff like york and gaff since the dogs are commonly duel registerd and are not great represenites of any breed,be it apbt,amstaff or a mix of the two,jmo..


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> I'd say its the other way around,all "amstaffs" have "apbt" in there pedigree!


This is why I like discussing with you!! I would say we are both correct in this one.

1. The APBT is the functioning/working dog, therefore it was the first.
2. Originally it was not called APBT but rather Am Staff.
3. Once they split ways the Amstaff became the show dog and the APBT the working dog so yes I would say we are correct. Do you see it this way.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 16, 2007)

I though back in the "fighting" days most breeders that actually fought thier dogs would cull the blues? I don't know where I heard that at and not really sure if it's true or not........... or why that's just what I remember reading somewhere


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what I was looking for...lol


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

That is what happened, sheer ignorance is what it was.


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

Genetic Depression??? You must be trying to say Genetic Supression which changes the phenotype (outward appearance). That is a whole different ball of DNA that has to do with supression/reversion/replacement.

Maybe you are thinking of Genetic Drifting. This is where in a small population, such as breeders using a limited number of sires and dams, the law of averages do not adhere to the litter produced. You can end up changing traits on an accelerated scale with subsequent breedings. Kind of like flipping a coin just 6 times...you might get 5 heads to 1 tail. Take the same coin and flip it 600 times and you will get very near to 300 heads and 300 tails.

There is something called "Inbreeding Depression". That comes from close inbreeding and causes a reduction in viability, smaller litters, sterility, lower birth weight, ect. This can lead to "Genetic Loading" in a population which is the number of alleles that produce a lethal combination of genes.

I better stop before my head explodes...


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

Need to put this all in perspective I guess.

Do you think the dogmen of the past knew what homozygote vs heterozygote populations had to do with breeding and getting a "gamedog". Without knowing it they practiced both types of breedings to get the dogs/traits they desired. With some breedings (homozygote for the most part) they culled what they did not understand and worked/fought the rest. They stole dogs from other dogmen (heterozygote for the most part)...bred dogs with proven game regardless of genetic faults (heterozygote)...inbred some to "inbred depression" to get the 1 dog that "made the grade" (homozygote).

What all this means is that the original group of dogs which we all consider the APBTs were a mix of many genetic pools and believe it or not natural selection "favors" a heterozygote population for survival. These days when breeders try to meet stringent confirmation traits/artificial size restrictions/ect, thru strictly homozygote breeding...this includes breeding specifically for color...they damage the viability of the breed as a whole. That is why looking at the "Dog as a Whole" is a much better path to follow in breeding. Dogs that have proven themselves at "tasks" more than "looks" should be prized.

So never discount a dog because of color nor herald a dog based solely on lineage!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> That is what happened, sheer ignorance is what it was.


It's beyond me why any old dogger would cull a dog for color that make's no logical sense to think the a dog's color would be a disadvanatge in the pit or some how prevent a dog from preforming to the standards of the breed. what in the world were these old dogger's thinking ??

I also wanted to say that with line breeding and inbreeding still going strong I am sure you are still seeing blue's poping up in litter's so how this is somehow rare in apbt's is beyond me I think blue was brought on by line breeding and inbreeding to begin with even if dogger's culled these blues the inbreeding and line breeding has never stopped so how would it be rare not to see blue in apbt's today with all the line breeding and inbreeding going on? If you make the suggestion that amstaff blood is in all blue dogs today than you would also have to say that amstaff blood still exists in every other color dogs bloodline as well blue is no excpetion to this theroy.JMO


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Blu VooDoo - Best in Show Puppy - KY ADBA show


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

And this is Katphish. Sonny Daze x Blue Bella


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Very Nice :thumbsup: I love Blue Voo-doo


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

SadieBlues said:


> Very Nice :thumbsup: I love Blue Voo-doo


Thanks! He's turning out very nice! Pulling very well too!


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> I also wanted to say that with line breeding and inbreeding still going strong I am sure you are still seeing blue's poping up in litter's so how this is somehow rare in apbt's is beyond me I think blue was brought on by line breeding and inbreeding to begin with even if dogger's culled these blues the inbreeding and line breeding has never stopped so how would it be rare not to see blue in apbt's today with all the line breeding and inbreeding going on? If you make the suggestion that amstaff blood is in all blue dogs today than you would also have to say that amstaff blood still exists in every other color dogs bloodline as well blue is no excpetion to this theroy.JMO


Actually the opposite is true. Line/Inbreeding tend to make a homozygous population...which means the traits they breed for are DOMINANT from both parents. That is why the "blue" has become rare in gamedogs. Just as when BYBers Line/Inbreed "blue to blue" to make a homozygous popultion of "bluenose dogs".


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Very well put. My wife is genetic nut!!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

DieselDawg said:


> Actually the opposite is true. Line/Inbreeding tend to make a homozygous population...which means the traits they breed for are DOMINANT from both parents. That is why the "blue" has become rare in gamedogs. Just as when BYBers Line/Inbreed "blue to blue" to make a homozygous popultion of "bluenose dogs".


Deisel You sound well informed on genetics so I will take your word for it. I am going to have to do some reading myself on this topic to better understand it sounds like some good stuff


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> Very well put. My wife is genetic nut!!


I'll be sure to menton this post to her next time I see her!!! :angeldevi


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## DieselDawg (Jul 23, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> Deisel You sound well informed on genetics so I will take your word for it. I am going to have to do some reading myself on this topic to better understand it sounds like some good stuff


Just think of it like this. Line/Inbreeding is done to make certain traits repeat themselves over and over...eventually this can lead to a homozygous population. This means that ALL the dogs are so closely related, that the Alleles (bundles of chromosomes) are both the same...such as the dam will be BB for dominant Black AND the sire will be BB for dominant Black. Every mating between these two dogs would yield offspring with BB dominant Black color genes.

The problem that can occur because of this closed breeding loop is the repeating of weak gene Alleles...like a skin allergy, slayed feat, ect. This can also lead to reduced fertility, sterility, smaller litters, ect. if done to the extreme. Why? Natural Selection! Nature wants to build a heterzygous population thru more random breeding so that weaknesses do not destroy a species. I know a lot of people like to think that ABPTs should always remain as they did 150 years ago, but that is not Nature's Way...and it is not the best way to preserve our breed. You can look at "purebreed" dogs and see the inherited problems many are having from using a limited population of sires and dams.

It is very involved but also very interesting. Just when you figure out all the rules a "de novo" mutation occurs to complicate things...lol. This is why Mendel used the 14 chromosome "bean" in his studies instead of the 78 chromosome dog!


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## Teekospits (Apr 10, 2010)

Yes n no to the question? The breed was consider the same and maybe is to this day. No blue grandcamp apbts but grandchamp apbts/staff crosses. But I maybe wrong someone correct me. Grch razoeregde throwing knuckles, grch watcdog zues , grch pr tonyshowtime, grch trupins blue trouble and more but these are all apbts/staffs cross. There will be another blue paul look alike soon if they can limit the crosses a lot thighten the skin smoother coat well built chest and pronounce head with powerfull jaws muscle. But I love see how we making the breed better and turning the bad new to good news. Keep up the good work people and make your blue a grch.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

There is one blue apbt gr ch ... And that is soga she's not a show GR CH though LOL .. She's a box GR CH

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA


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## Teekospits (Apr 10, 2010)

Lol yes he is but don't he has som crenshaw in his ped so wouldn't that make him some apbt with some staff too in him. Cause I know a lot of grch, akc grch, ukc grch and internatinal grch tha are pure breed staff blues and are very well breed. Apbts are not blue till it was cross in with staffs. But he look good n has a great body on him.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

The reading on the blue Paul was interesting. I've read a little before and really wish there was something concrete. It'd be nice to really know.

A true game bred blue from strictly game lines is very rare so a GR CH would be like 1 in a billion or something. I've seen the one posted here.

Some other things........



DieselDawg said:


> Two phenotype (outwardly visible) black dogs can throw a blue pup if they both had one "d" at the loci and the haploid stand of DNA from each dog had the "d" gene. If those two strands make up the zygote (egg/sperm), then you will get a blue dog.


I wanted to add while this is correct, since black is dominant you can produce blue from a single black parent as long as each have 1 d allele.



DieselDawg said:


> Well a Blue Brindle would most likely be Ay-B-dd-Ebr...Dominant Yellow (brindle needs a light color to exhibit the phenotype)-B (Dominant Black)-dd (Double Recessive to get Blue-modifies eumelanin (dark pigment distribution) in the hair folicles-Ebr (Extension that shows the brindle pattern on lighter folicles)
> 
> The Chocolate/Red would most likely be As-bb-Dd...Dominant Black (makes for a solid coat color)-bb (brown or red depending on other factors)-Dd (shows full density of color without dillution)
> 
> Both these are still abbreviated a bit without any other information...there are 9 Loci (locations) that affect coat color in the APBT, but the ones listed above would most likely be the important ones in this case. A Blue Dog would in simple terms be at least Bbdd or BBdd...so your pup would be As-Bb-dd...pretty kewl, Huh?


I can't possibly no the full genotype but can roughly speculate.
Blue Brindle 
Ay/Ay (possible to carry an at) BB (if there was red nose pups then Bb) dd EE (could carry an e and if they had a mask they were Em) Kbr/ky

Chocolate - a chocolate dog is black with liver gene and a blue dog black with dilution gene.
Ay/Ay (possible Ayat) bb Dd EE (possible to have Em or e) K/ky is most likely.

So the pup being blue is probable to be
Ay/Ay Bb dd EE (others are possible except ee) K/ky could be a K/kbr but you wouldn't be able to see the brindle, the blue mask the blue stripes.



Teekospits said:


> Lol yes he is but don't he has som crenshaw in his ped so wouldn't that make him some apbt with some staff too in him. Cause I know a lot of grch, akc grch, ukc grch and internatinal grch tha are pure breed staff blues and are very well breed. Apbts are not blue till it was cross in with staffs. But he look good n has a great body on him.


Trying to follow this post?
Are you talking about the dog above? She appears to be of no staff lines at all. What does E. Crenshaw have to do with AST? I've had the blood before and noted no Staff. Never heard he introduced staff into the line. Blue APBT surely can exist without AmStaff.


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## Teekospits (Apr 10, 2010)

Yes the dog above and crenshaw is a gameline and fufther back you might see some x_pert and ruffian and brandy and hollidays reese and browns bloodline some dogs come from a same blood only there name changes through new owners but apbts been import like the indian bolio line is one favorite but you are right and respect your conerversation


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

If your taking about Ed Crenshaw he was a dog man and no there is no staff blood behind his dogs all box dogs are APBT's.Blue can show up in the APBT as already stated many times so long as both parents are carriers of the D gene. Two blue dogs can only produce blue dogs. The theory is that the color blue was introduced into the APBT through the blue paul that is how it showed up in our breed to begin with. Now that it's there it can pop up but not anywhere near as often as you see it within Staff Lines and Bully Lines. If it happens in the APBT it wasn't done on purpose it happens because 2 black parent's are carries of the D gene.

Coat Color Genetics


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

in staffordshire england,many miners bred the bull and terrier breed.they would often be all but homeless,and their dogs were used as A defense tool to keep them,when passed out from being rolled/robbed.
the thing that I also read was that the mines had built cubicles to contain the dogs while the miners worked 12 hr shifts.they had A waterboy,that fed and kept the dogs.the dogs,from being bored would snap and yap back and forth at each other.the miners took this to the next level.
they fought them.they became known as staffords,staffies,or staffirdshire terriers.
they then developed or integrated with irishmen and started breeding and transporting game dogs.
then during the famine in ireland,and other job and societal overcrowding and events of the such,their was A mad exedous to the states.with the railroad,mining was all the rave,they were experts with explosives,and moving rock.and with them came the irish dogs and staffs.
so yes,theirs staff blood way back.
what folks try to do,and it's the new rage,is to assimilate the bully and staffs with the machined and fine tuned game dogs.
staffs were transposed as the show counterpart of the pit bull.
people immidiately became impressed with the pit,yet not it's origin.
it actually evolved in A way that afforded the breed some different notoriety.
personally,I believe it's A good thing that their is the show pit,or amstaff.
it just proves that the recklessness we see with the "pit bull" can be thwarted,even if it's with the show counterpart,amstaff.
but theirs no comparing the game staffs that came across the pond 120 years ago to the staffs of today.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Sadie said:


> If your taking about Ed Crenshaw he was a dog man and no there is no staff blood behind his dogs all box dogs are APBT's.Blue can show up in the APBT as already stated many times so long as both parents are carriers of the D gene. Two blue dogs can only produce blue dogs. The theory is that the color blue was introduced into the APBT through the blue paul that is how it showed up in our breed to begin with. Now that it's there it can pop up but not anywhere near as often as you see it within Staff Lines and Bully Lines. If it happens in the APBT it wasn't done on purpose it happens because 2 black parent's are carries of the D gene.
> 
> Coat Color Genetics


Yeah I looked behind Stu Fowler's pedigree and didn't see any AST lines. I never recalled there being X-pert or any of that back there when researching my dogs peds but double checked anyway.

They need to both carry d, D is the normal dominant black. While d causes dilution of black when homozygous. So whatever color the parents are as long as they carry a d then they have a chance of producing some dd blue pups if at least one parent is black (or blue brindle, blue fawn, blue and tan point, ect depending on their color/genes and if neither parent is black. There is also the possibility of lilac)


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Teekospits said:


> Keep up the good work people and make your blue a grch.


BTW .. I know there are plenty of blue show GR CH's AKC/UKC dogs not sure about the adba I don't think there is a blue GR CH within the adba LOL I will have to ask around about that but I am pretty sure there are none ... There is one box GR CH that I know of anyway and I posted her ped and NO she is not a staff that's a bulldog. If I run by any other's I will post them up. But no one here is going to be making any blue dog a box GR CH not in this part of the world anyway.


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## Novakkennels (Jul 16, 2010)

Sadie said:


> There is one blue apbt gr ch ... And that is soga she's not a show GR CH though LOL .. She's a box GR CH
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA


fine looking bulldog, I dont care if it was green id feed it, very ...almost box like body...i like


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