# Female in her final heat, possible inbreeding :(



## heafy (Oct 31, 2009)

My female is in her third and final heat. And I have 99 problems...

As soon as I noticed her heat coming on I put my male, which is her brother, on the chain and her in the pen.

Problem is is that she has literally broken out about 6 times. The male has got off the chain just as many. 

They grew up with one another - they show each other so much love, but I can not breed them! I seriously cannot have inbred pitbulls running around 

I would say she started showing signs of the heat about 2 weeks ago. 

I do not know if they locked up or not. As of right now I have them permanently separated.

As of right now she is still bleeding.. I would say she has she has been bleeding about a week and a half - but not entirely sure.

Can she still get pregnant while still bleeding? Wouldn't the bleeding stop if she was prego?

If she is prego, then the puppies are definitely inbred. What do you think I should do? What about puppy abortions?

thanks for any help


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## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

spay and abort is always an option, just so you know a lot of APBT's are inbred, there could be absolutely nothing wrong with these pups but if you are that worried then yes find a vet or a low/cost spay and neuter place and have the pups aborted and her spayed  Good luck with what you do


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## heafy (Oct 31, 2009)

apbtmom76 said:


> spay and abort is always an option, just so you know a lot of APBT's are inbred, there could be absolutely nothing wrong with these pups but if you are that worried then yes find a vet or a low/cost spay and neuter place and have the pups aborted and her spayed  Good luck with what you do


thank you.

but wouldn't these puppies have health defects or be mentally retarded? I'm against aborting, but right now I see no other option if she truly is prego...


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## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

not necessarily, as I said a lot of dogmen breed moms to sons and things like that with great results, I am against aborting as well but if it saves the life of your bitch and keeps your mind at ease then I say go for it, but no they won't necessarily have problems, but as well if they are not paperd or anything then yes do the spay and abort, if you have them for workin show purposes that is a bit different, if they are just pets then yes get her spayed


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

heafy said:


> thank you.
> 
> but wouldn't these puppies have health defects or be mentally retarded? I'm against aborting, but right now I see no other option if she truly is prego...


I'd spay and abort.
The puppies would not necessarily be defected. As Tye said there are a lot of dogs that are inbred and many old dog men that inbred their dogs, but I would definitely lean toward spay and abort. Good luck.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Spay and abort. But my question to you is why haven't you spayed or neutered before any of this could have happened. I would of at least fixed one. You had to have known what you were up against owning an intact male and female and the risk of them mating.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

I agree, spay abort


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

You can spay her if you never intend to breed her but dogs usually are not ready to breed till the 10-13th day. If it is around that time they could have locked up. There is nothing wrong with inbreeding if you do it correctly. If their pedigree is not real tight the pup should be just fine. You have to do a lot of inbreeding to start making defect show up or have really tight peds. If you female has gotten out that many times then you need a new chain set up. If you do a search you will find a bunch of threads that show how to properly contain an APBT. good luck with it all hope she did not get pregnant.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Spay abort. ASAP


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## DarkMoon (Nov 26, 2009)

I know you said your not ok with aborting, but here's the thing, Would you rather spay your bitch now before there really are puppies, or if there is puppies, try to find responsible homes for a litter of 6 to 12 puppies, and watch a lot of them get killed due to human irresponsibly? Those that don't get killed, how would you feel if these puppies were again bred to produce more puppies? How about if they get into the wrong hands and end up in the hands of a horrible human who breeds them every heat cycle or to every bitch that walks by?

Your better off humanely euthanizing before the puppies even have a chance of getting limbs then letting them live a life of hell in us humans hands.

Get your bitch spayed asap. Your vet couldn't even tell you if she's pregnant right now or not. It's better to have it done now then to have a litter of puppies. That is for sure.


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## Wingman (Oct 21, 2009)

You said you're against aborting, but it really is the best solution. This is an oops between two, what I'm assuming, untitled dogs, with nothing that makes them anything more than "pet" qaulity dogs. THe litter could produce amazing dogs, but why produce from unproven stock when there are so many dogs in shelters, etc etc. Umm as far as the inbreeding goes read this thread, it's full of good info:
http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/30169-question-inbreeding.html


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

heafy said:


> thank you.
> 
> but wouldn't these puppies have health defects or be mentally retarded? I'm against aborting, but right now I see no other option if she truly is prego...


do you know anything about their background? if there isnt any line breeding already in their pedigree then the pups should be just fine. alot of good dogs come from line breeding


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Line breeding and inbreeding should be left up to the "professional" dog breeders of the world not a beginner who has a brother and sister from the same litter. We have enough BYB pits in shelters getting put to sleep everday. We don't need more irresponsibility bred pits to add to it


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## heafy (Oct 31, 2009)

i do not want to spay her since I am going to breed her. 

The seller was a real stand up guy. He was selling the puppies for 500 but cut me a deal since he seen me get all childish when I seen them. He decided to get him to me for 200 since I was in college at the time.

On the female, he just called me out of the blue after he had the next litter and said he had one pup that was getting really old and couldn't get rid of so he offered her to me for free. I accepted 

Its always been my dream to breed pit bulls. I expect to get trolled on since thats what usually happens when someone says they are going to breed their dogs.. But I was/am going to do it right..

I don't have their pedigrees but he told me they had awesome peds... I am bit in a financial burden right now since I just graduated college, got married, and bought a new house and have yet to find a new job.. thats why I haven't got em yet. But I contacted the seller about the peds and I'm sure he'll get back to me..

I do know, however, that my dog's parents were from separate parents/sellers...


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## heafy (Oct 31, 2009)

how many generations would someone typically want to see if they wanted to linebreed?


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

If you are in a financial burden you might want to know. If something goes wrong with the birth your dog will need an emergency c section. That's usually at least $1,000. Plus puppy expenses. Shots and wormings. As well as bottle feeding supplies if for some reason she does not feed them or take care of them because she is so young or she dies during a c section or complications during whelping. They will need to be fed about every 2 hrs round the clock. When you finish feeding and pottying all of them it will probably be time to start over again.

It sounds like you got your dogs from a byb. It is not wise to start a breeding program with that kind of stock. I'm sure your dogs will be good pets, but that doesn't mean they need to reproduce. This world is filled with great pets sitting in shelters. Which is where your puppies or your puppies offspring could end up as well. I would spay your female, neuter the male. Keep them as pets and learn as much as you can about proper breeding.

Then go buy some quality stock after you research pedigrees and know what you are doing. If you don't even know the lines of these two then how would you choose a potential mate in the first place? Just breed to whatever dog looks good? You might also want to make sure the parents of future breeding stock are health tested and titled.

If you want to linebreed you want to see as many generations as possible. I don't recommend anyone breed without understanding genetics and doing lots and lots of research first.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

So you want to be a breeder. Are these dogs you have right now registered with papers? If not SPAY AND ABORT bc you don't need to breed them. If you don't even know their pedigrees or any history behind them other than the breeder told you they had "awesome pedigrees" please RUN do NOT walk to your veterinarian and do yourself, your dogs, and those puppies a favor by doing the right thing. 


> The seller was a real stand up guy. He was selling the puppies for 500 but cut me a deal since he seen me get all childish when I seen them. He decided to get him to me for 200 since I was in college at the time.
> 
> On the female, he just called me out of the blue after he had the next litter and said he had one pup that was getting really old and couldn't get rid of so he offered her to me for free. I accepted
> 
> ...


There are just so many reasons why you should not breed in those paragraphs alone.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

You should FIX YOUR MALE then. If you want to keep your female intact to breed then the smart thing to do is fix her brother so he doesn't have to suffer living with a bitch in heat all the time. I don't approve of you breeding your bitch unless she is proven and health tested but your going to do what your going to do. If you are here to learn then listen to the professionals on here who have owned this breed for years and who have experience with proper and correct breeding. Don't just become another BYB. Knowledge is power


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## heafy (Oct 31, 2009)

Why post useless stuff people? I asked about inbreeding, how many generations, etc. Thanks to all that helped me but I just have to vent, this forum aggravates me to no extent: 

"sounds like you got your dogs from a byb" well the way you type makes you look like a byb. See how dumb that sounds?? 

All I read is ppl dissing BYB.. Well, you know you ppl could be called ya'll BYB's. Just because a dog comes from a "BYB" does not make it bad to breed with.. Just as a dog that does not come from a "BYB" is not always good to breed with..

And as for my dogs - they could honestly be show dogs. They are absolutely perfect in the sense of the american pit bull terrier.. eyes, ears, coat, paws, etc everything. So why not breed this wonderful dog? Why not give my friends, family, neighbors, or anybody the chance to have this wonderful breed of dog as a pet?? They sure and hell are not going to go search for the breeders ya'll claim yourselves to be only to pay an arm and a leg.. Ya'll should seriously rethink ya'lls strategy..

As for genetics, I was a biology major so I probably know more about that than most of ya'll on here.. And genetics is such a WIDE and LARGE thing that it is impossible even by looking at pedigrees (which isn't as useful as you make it sound in my opinion since that only tells who bred with who and not phenotype/genotype or anything quite useful - anything can happen with genetics) to supposedly select "good" parings.. THIS IS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE PPL. 

And for the person who said "Just breed to whatever dog looks good?" - In a sense, that is exactly what you want to do! lol

And as for not having money, the pit bull has been referred to in the past as the poor man's dog since they are in general low maintenance dogs.. And if the "BYB" did not exist, this poor breed would probably have ceased to exist or at least not be as popular as it has become.. 

ok, I'm done.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

heafy said:


> Why post useless stuff people?* I asked about inbreeding, how many generations, etc.* Thanks to all that helped me but I just have to vent, this forum aggravates me to no extent: "sounds like you got your dogs from a byb" well the way you type makes you look like a byb.* See how dumb that sounds??* All I read is ppl dissing BYB..* Well, you know you ppl could be called ya'll BYB's.* Just because a dog comes from a "BYB" does not make it bad to breed with..* Just as a dog that does not come from a "BYB" is not always good to breed with..And as for my dogs - they could honestly be show dogs.* They are absolutely perfect in the sense of the american pit bull terrier..* eyes, ears, coat, paws, etc everything.* So why not breed this wonderful dog?* Why not give my friends, family, neighbors, or anybody the chance to have this wonderful breed of dog as a pet??* They sure and hell are not going to go search for the breeders ya'll claim yourselves to be only to pay an arm and a leg..* Ya'll should seriously rethink ya'lls strategy..As for genetics, I was a biology major so I probably know more about that than most of ya'll on here..* And genetics is such a WIDE and LARGE thing that it is impossible even by looking at pedigrees (which isn't as useful as you make it sound in my opinion since that only tells who bred with who and not phenotype/genotype or anything quite useful - anything can happen with genetics) to supposedly select "good" parings..* THIS IS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE PPL.* And for the person who said "Just breed to whatever dog looks good?" - In a sense, that is exactly what you want to do! lolAnd as for not having money, the pit bull has been referred to in the past as the poor man's dog since they are in general low maintenance dogs..* And if the "BYB" did not exist, this poor breed would probably have ceased to exist or at least not be as popular as it has become..* ok, I'm done.


Look like Ya''ll made up your mind to breed a brother and sister together then right? Genetics? That's good genetics huh? Your dogs need to have registered PAPERS, and be proven like in Obedience, agility, weight pull, conformation. AND they need to go to the vet to be health certified for breeding. Yeah, I could say my bitch is PERFECT to breed to. But I know better than to breed and add to the OVER-population of Pits in the world. Plus, I ain't looking for $$$$ from pups which is what BYB's do. If you want to be a backyard breeder go for it! FYI, you are supposed to breed to better the breed and not because your dog has nice feet, eyes, and coat. It would have sounded alot better if you said temperament as well as conformation. Did you come here to learn or to bad mouth this forum? People are trying to educate you and because you are not hearing what you want to hear it is making you mad. Anyways, best of luck in your future of breeding. Make sure you have a few thousand $$$ put aside if your female needs and emergency C-section.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

heafy said:


> Why post useless stuff people? I asked about inbreeding, how many generations, etc. Thanks to all that helped me but I just have to vent, this forum aggravates me to no extent:
> 
> "sounds like you got your dogs from a byb" well the way you type makes you look like a byb. See how dumb that sounds??
> 
> ...


LOL you obviously know very little about this breed. If so you would know with out byb's this breed would still probably be considered americas dog and not the vicious beasts, they have become. A pedigree is useful in a breeding program, only if the dogs you choose are well bred. certain blood line carry different characteristics. This is how you know what a good pairing would be. And if had really done research you would know that there is more to the breed and it's standard than it has nice ears feet coat, whatever it was you said. So learn a little before you try and breed dogs. I don't have to be a biology major to know that breeding good dogs is a science that you have not mastered. Good luck with your dogs.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

If they could be show dogs then take them to a show.

Why not breed this wonderful dog? I don't think you were listening. Your family and friends could adopt lots of wonderful dogs or puppies from the shelter.

You don't just look at the pedigree. Which is just names. I have looked at my dogs peds. Studied them. Found litter mates, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc etc. Contacted the breeder and gotten health information on the dogs in the ped. I have seen and touched my dogs parents and grandparents as well as lots of dogs closely related to them. If you know your lines well. Looking at the paper with the names you can see who has produced what because you know them already. You know that so and so bred together have produced day blindness and so they would both be carriers, etc, etc. It is not an exact science, but if you use the right tools you have less of a chance of producing a bunch of dogs that are crap. There is health testing you can do to make sure your dogs do not have or carry certain genetic diseases.

I have no problem with breeders who know what they are doing and actually did a bit of research instead of just wanting to breed more of a way overly bred type of dog. Yay! lets make more babies while thousands of other pit bulls die in shelters! I'll give them to my family and friends and they can make more with their dogs too, and we can be a huge overpopulating pit bull family!


If BYB's didn't exist then this breed wouldn't be in the trouble it is. There would not be breed bans all over the place for them because there would be less of them for irresponsible owners to get their hands on. 

I very much doubt they would go extinct without back yard breeding idiots.


Oh, and if you "were" a biology major you shouldn't need to ask questions about inbreeding. You should know how defects are passed and it's not just from being related.

I also wanted to add. Pedigrees do tell you part of the phenotype of the dog. They might not show you what the dogs look like, but they do tell you color. Color is very important in breeding healthy dogs as some color dilutions have been related to health problems.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

heafy said:


> Why post useless stuff people? I asked about inbreeding, how many generations, etc. Thanks to all that helped me but I just have to vent, this forum aggravates me to no extent:
> )


If this forum aggravates you because you don't want to be responsible you are welcome to leave.

YOU aggravate me with you child like attitude toward breeding and creating more of these dogs.:hammer::hammer:

It is only useless to people who could careless about educating themselves and doing whats right for these dogs.



heafy said:


> "sounds like you got your dogs from a byb" well the way you type makes you look like a byb. See how dumb that sounds??
> 
> All I read is ppl dissing BYB.. Well, you know you ppl could be called ya'll BYB's. Just because a dog comes from a "BYB" does not make it bad to breed with.. Just as a dog that does not come from a "BYB" is not always good to breed with..


You did get your dog from a BYB get over it. Sadly you are one of those people who are dead set on continuing that cycle.



heafy said:


> And as for my dogs - they could honestly be show dogs. They are absolutely perfect in the sense of the american pit bull terrier.. eyes, ears, coat, paws, etc everything. So why not breed this wonderful dog? Why not give my friends, family, neighbors, or anybody the chance to have this wonderful breed of dog as a pet?? They sure and hell are not going to go search for the breeders ya'll claim yourselves to be only to pay an arm and a leg.. Ya'll should seriously rethink ya'lls strategy..


They could honestly be mutts too whats your point? Eyes, ears, coat, paws??? Seriously thats your spill for them being a good representative for the breed? You need to educate yourself before coming here and trying to tell ANYONE what is a good example of the breed or trying to pass your crap off like you know what your talking about.

There are 3 people in this thread that have kennels and not a single one is selling anything so maybe you should rethink your strategy. People like you thinking we need more pets created is why over 1 million pitbulls are killed in the shelter every year. You could care less about these dogs or this breed.



heafy said:


> As for genetics, I was a biology major so I probably know more about that than most of ya'll on here.. And genetics is such a WIDE and LARGE thing that it is impossible even by looking at pedigrees (which isn't as useful as you make it sound in my opinion since that only tells who bred with who and not phenotype/genotype or anything quite useful - anything can happen with genetics) to supposedly select "good" parings.. THIS IS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE PPL.


Wow you must have failed biology. We do have our selves some edumacated peoples here.  12-20+ years of breeding dogs and knowing dog genetics tend to educate you. Pedigrees can and do give you the information for what you need to breed.

From everything I have read from you I wouldn't be insulting anyone's intelligence or assuming what they know as you seem to not know much of anything about breeding dogs or dog genetics.



heafy said:


> And for the person who said "Just breed to whatever dog looks good?" - In a sense, that is exactly what you want to do! lol
> 
> And as for not having money, the pit bull has been referred to in the past as the poor man's dog since they are in general low maintenance dogs.. And if the "BYB" did not exist, this poor breed would probably have ceased to exist or at least not be as popular as it has become..
> 
> ok, I'm done.


If byb'ers didn't exist we would not be facing BSL in almost every state, have pitbull attacks flooding the news, or have the massive overpopulation of shelter, stray and unwanted pitbulls that die daily.

Give your self a hand for joining the group of these backyard breeders. That seems to be a goal for you.

Stop making your excuses and educate yourself. You are bad on money don't breed. No these dogs are not low maintenance and maybe you can feed them on some cheap food and call it ok because they are alive, but that doesn't mean your doing anything right for the dog or the breed.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

:goodpost:


American_Pit13 said:


> If this forum aggravates you because you don't want to be responsible you are welcome to leave.
> 
> YOU aggravate me with you child like attitude toward breeding and creating more of these dogs.:hammer::hammer:
> 
> ...


:goodpost: actually AWESOME post!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

American_Pit13 said:


> If this forum aggravates you because you don't want to be responsible you are welcome to leave.
> 
> YOU aggravate me with you child like attitude toward breeding and creating more of these dogs.:hammer::hammer:
> 
> ...


Holly, I'd save your breath or fingers whatever lol
Something tells me that this was not just an oops litter and even if it was he or she is still ok with it. I could have sworn we had a BYB sticky around here somewhere didn't we? Seemed like he was copying and pasting from that list 

Heafy, you are obviously going to do what you are going to do. Please spay and neuter all those puppies before you give them away to whomever. As for giving them to your family and friends I will say that NOBODY in my family is qualified to own a pit bull type dog nor are any of my friends except for one and she is on this forum. What about you? I am going to say no your friends and family probably know nothing about the breed or they would have discouraged you from keeping this litter. Yes, we dis BYB because every time they produce a dog and only have dollar signs in their eyes it is just another nail in the coffin of the breed that I love so much. Why are you asking about Genetics now? Little late for that don't you think. Use our search button there is a lot of good info on here pertaining to breeding, whelping, inbreeding, etc.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

Breed your dog if you want.
This is America.

Keep in mind you disrespect every breeder of the APBT and their dogs when you do not breed pure bred APBTs' for a good reason (to keep the line going, or better the breed). There are exceptions. If you live in the deep woods and you add some APBT in your hunting dogs, etc.

Without knowing your pedigree inside and out its pointless to breed the APBT unless you do not live in the US and you game test your dogs.

Good luck on your new breed of dogs. The APBT was bred for an invisible trait.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

I had NPR call and wake me up one mourning to battle a anti dog breeder on the phone on air!

They tried to get me to say by not having byb it is good for me!

I was half asleep.
Here is the bottom line.
Breeding dogs is a property right issue.

This is America!
Keep your hands off me, my family and my dogs.

I hate knowing about all of the dogs offed at the pound. It sucks. Growing up some of my best dogs were mutts!

Breeding dogs should not be illegal.
The Mormons running there puppy mills, now that is bad!
Some back yard breeders are "bad".

However when you take away someones rights, its a slippery slope.

They came for the Jews, I was not Jewish, they came for the blacks, I was not black, they came for my neighbor, oh well, now they come for you and there is no one left to help you fight for the freedom that our ancestors DIED for.

The most important rights are the ones you do not believe in.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

American_Pit13 said:


> If this forum aggravates you because you don't want to be responsible you are welcome to leave.
> 
> YOU aggravate me with you child like attitude toward breeding and creating more of these dogs.:hammer::hammer:
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

heafy said:


> My female is in her third and final heat. And I have 99 problems...
> 
> As soon as I noticed her heat coming on I put my male, which is her brother, on the chain and her in the pen.
> 
> ...


The bond of a brother a sister is HUGE.
I love watching a brother and sister play.

Pedigree Chart
This is the best software I have seen yet. Its $80

She may not have got stuck.
I think day 12 after bleeding is when the female starts flagging.
Sure, they can get pregnant before and after flagging. Its around day 10-20 you have to be very careful.

You say she is still bleeding.
That is a good sign.
They usually bleed "clear" when ready to breed - really its all about the female "flagging" with her tail. Then she is ready to breed.

If she has gotten out, you do not know if another male bred with her.
Even with papers, 9/10 chance you have a new age APBT cross.

I do not think one inbreeding will hurt if they are both stable dogs. Check the papers to see if they have been inbred before. Look for any major problems in the sire and dam that will be passed on big time.

There is a Coefficient of Inbreeding that allows you to see how inbred they are by using many past generations. Its an interesting program and costs about $80.

Peace
Tim

PS
12 times is way to many times for them to have got loose. These are smart dogs, they tend to outsmart their owners. Haha


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

heafy said:


> And as for my dogs - they could honestly be show dogs. They are absolutely perfect in the sense of the american pit bull terrier.. eyes, ears, coat, paws, etc everything.


There are no perfect dogs. Top show dogs have weaknesses. As for your dogs, if you've never stepped into the show ring with them, you will not know if they are show dogs or not. The odds that you got two exactly perfect dogs from someone who cut you a deal and then gave you another he couldn't sell -- and I'm sorry, but that does sound like a BYB -- are astronomical.



> So why not breed this wonderful dog? Why not give my friends, family, neighbors, or anybody the chance to have this wonderful breed of dog as a pet??


Because everybody and their brother is already doing that. If your dogs are as fantastic as you believe they are, do something with them. Show them. Weight pull them. Do Schutzhund or agility or obedience with them. Make something truly spectacular out of them before you start dropping litters to give to friends.

One of the problems the APBT is facing right now is ready availability. If people can get them for $200 without any pre-thought, like the people you describe below...



> They sure and hell are not going to go search for the breeders ya'll claim yourselves to be only to pay an arm and a leg


...then we will never make any progress. We are in a Pit Bull glut. Mass production by everybody who can get their hands on an intact dog. And very very few actually doing the leg work to seek out a good breeder, let alone *become* a good breeder.



> And if the "BYB" did not exist, this poor breed would probably have ceased to exist or at least not be as popular as it has become..


They are a working man's dog, not a poor man's dog. LOL! And if they weren't so popular, neither would we have the headlines nearly as often. If you think the BYB is responsible for improving the breed, you are mistaken. They are responsible for propagating the breed, this is true. But as far as moving the breed forward, they do nothing but serve their own ends.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

NorCalTim said:


> This is America!
> Keep your hands off me, my family and my dogs.


Nobody's laying any hands. We're laying thoughts. We're trying to suggest that what the OP wants to do might not be the best course of action. Breeding for pets because he thinks his dogs are perfect does not improve the breed. But I also predict that if someone was suggesting anti-breeding _laws_ they'd be just as soundly rolled.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

All I can say is sigh .... What a shame another useless breeding with no purpose more irresponsibility and ignorance on behalf of the owner shame on you for not listening to people who have been where you are made the mistakes you are about to make and have grown over the years into truly responsible apbt owners something you should strive to be yourself before you even think about breeding. What another sad day for our breed. Why is it that people always have to learn the hard way ?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

You know, I think everybody who falls in love with the breed wants to become a breeder at some point in their life. I used to really want that when I was a teenager. I just hope the OP waits and gets involved with the breed on a deeper level before he starts producing litters. 

Go find a reputable breeder and offer to put in some time, even if its just helping them scoop poop. Absorb the information that you can from them while you help out. Get to the shows with your dogs and learn their true strengths and weaknesses because I can guarantee they are not flawless. And without knowing those faults you will not know how to improve upon them. Get to the working events, test your dogs' mettle against challenging tasks, both mental and physical. Get to your vet, have those radiographs shot so you'll know about the hips, elbows, etc. You do all that before you line up a breeding. And that doesn't even touch on pedigrees, getting homes pre-screened, etc. But it will all stand you in greater stead when you finally are ready to do a breeding.

Anybody can pair pretty dogs together. Being a great breeder, that is the true challenge.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> Nobody's laying any hands. We're laying thoughts. We're trying to suggest that what the OP wants to do might not be the best course of action. Breeding for pets because he thinks his dogs are perfect does not improve the breed. But I also predict that if someone was suggesting anti-breeding _laws_ they'd be just as soundly rolled.


Its hard to own a Bull dog nowadays. They have not always looked down upon by the general public. People do lay their hands on APBTs, county by county, state by state. Breeding, etc is another ball game. There is a double anti PC blow to any Bull Dog breeder. The person who began the thread has lots to learn, however Bull Dog breeders (who do it as close to old school as possible) are heroes in the year 2011 in the USA  . Plain and simple. This breed is under fire by bad laws, bad breeding, etc.


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