# Breeding My girl



## Maya (Oct 12, 2006)

hello everyone I'm new here and I have a question.
I have a 2 year old female red\red nose and I want to breed her to my brother's blue boy. Now I'm not too familiar with breeding dogs because Xena is my first dog and I want to know what all I must do to ensure a good breeding. Should I take her to the vet's to get a check up to make sure she can handle it, do I need to make sure the male doesn't have like doggy aids or somthing, Right now she just starting bleeding an my brother said she has to bleed for like 10 days and then mate with his dog.

Are there any good links to explain the breeding process step by step?

Thanx in advance. :hug:


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

*Here's an article I found.*

*Oldfort, Midwest, Cane, and a few others probably could elaborate more on this topic!!**

Code of Ethics For Breeders of American Pit Bull Terriers/American Staffordshire Terriers

Section I: Introduction & Mission Statement

Introduction: This Code of Ethics is being presented by the Pit Bull Owners Alliance (PBOA). The material presented herein is to serve as a guide for breeders and reference tool for potential buyers seeking out breeders. The goal in presenting this Code of Ethics is not to promote Pit Bull breeding, but rather to discourage indiscriminate breeding, poor breeding practices, and support of unethical breeders. PBOA supports and encourages rescue above and beyond breeding or purchasing Pit Bulls.

Mission Statement: The ethical breeder of American Pit Bull Terriers and/or American Staffordshire Terriers ("Pit Bulls") shall always hold paramount the future of the breed. A desire for betterment and preservation of the Pit Bull breed should be the sole driving force behind a breeder's choice to produce puppies.

1) The breed's future: because of a) anti-Pit Bull legislation, b) irresponsible ownership, c) criminal animal abuse, and d) a surplus of dogs, the future of the Pit Bull is in jeopardy. Prior to planning a litter, a breeder should ask himself/herself if the litter will jeopardize the future of the breed by contributing in any way to a, b, c, and/or d above.

2) Betterment of the breed: the goal of the ethical Pit Bull breeder should always be, first and foremost, to better the breed through the production of puppies that are as good as or superior to the previous generation. Production of Pit Bulls that ideally represent the United Kennel Club (UKC), American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA), and/or American Kennel Club (AKC) Standard(s) should be considered the pinnacle of a Pit Bull breeding program.

3) Preservation of the breed: ethical breeders should work to preserve, through legal and humane means, the Pit Bull breed as it was, is and should be. Means to achieve this goal include: protecting the integrity of the breed through adherence to the Standards; careful culling (via sterilization, and/or humane euthanasia when necessary) of sub-standard stock; meticulous record-keeping, DNA profiling, microchipping, and pedigree research; studying to achieve a scholarly knowledge of breed history, temperament, health, structure, and genetics.

Section II: Actions of the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder

Note 1: For simplicity's sake, "dog" will apply to both sexes. "Breeding stock" will apply to any dog or dogs that the Ethical Pit Bull breeder will breed, allow to be bred, or pay for the breeding services of.

Note 2: The pedigrees (previous generations) of all breeding stock should be considered as important as the breeding stock itself.

Note 3: Proper care, management and training are beyond the scope of this document. However an Ethical Pit Bull Breeder keeps their dogs well trained, in good health, in clean quarters, provides daily exercise and mental stimulation, and does not keep more dogs than can adequately be provided for.

The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder chooses breeding stock based on several criteria:

a) correctness of temperament (see #2 and Item 2) 
b) health and vitality of the individual dogs (see #3, Item 3, and Note 3) 
c) conformity to the applicable breed standard of the recognized Pit Bull registry (see # 5) 
d) qualities the individual dogs may offer to future generations 
e) qualities the pedigrees of the individual dogs may offer to future generations

The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder holds "A" and "B" above paramount above all other considerations when choosing breeding stock.

The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder:

1) has an extensive knowledge of Pit Bulls (their history, genetics, the Standards, care, training), as well as a strong understanding of breeding practices, canine health, and dog behavior/training

2) chooses breeding stock that is temperamentally sound and representative of the Standards. In addition, the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder does not breed any Pit Bull that is human-aggressive, fearful, exhibits behavior typically seen in breeds of the protection/guardian group, nor any Pit Bull that is not "temperament correct" (see item 3 below).

Item 2: The temperament correct Pit Bull: seeks out human interaction; is responsive, biddable and eager to please; may be genetically predisposed to aggression towards other dogs or animals; is appropriately submissive; is well balanced and optimistic; enjoys handling; presents good eye contact; is able to be calm in the presence of other dogs on leash or - if initially leash reactive - can learn how to tolerate their presence; is willing to connect with handler during high arousal; can be handled safely even in times of high arousal; accepts a reasonable amount of confinement; drops arousal levels quickly when removed from a stressful situation; is social with people of all types; is responsive and good natured; is never aggressive towards humans.

3) health tests all breeding stock prior to breeding, and certifies health of breeding stock prior to breeding where such certifications are available. Tests and certifications shall be conducted and processed prior to any dog being bred. Required health tests and certifications include: hips, elbows, thyroid, and heart (evaluated and certified by organizations such as Orthopedic Foundation for Animals [OFA] for hips, elbows, thyroid, and heart, or PennHip for hips). Dogs should test negative for Brucellosis and von Willebrand's Disease. Additional testing may be conducted for the following health abnormalties: Spinocerebellar/Hereditary Ataxia (specifically on American Staffordshire Terriers), and Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) with subsequent registration with Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) encouraged for dogs free of PRA. Results and certifications of any and all tests will be made readily available to potential buyers if tested and certified dogs will be bred. In addition, immediately prior to each breeding, all breeding stock should pass a basic veterinary health examination and be determined to be in good health.

Item 3: No dog with unsatisfactory health tests and/or certification results shall ever be bred. Unsatisfactory results would be (among others):

a) OFA hip ratings below fair 
b) OFA elbow ratings that indicated elbow dysplasia 
c) PennHip ratings that show abnormal joint laxity 
d) thyroids that do not test normal; thyroids that test TgAA positive 
e) hearts that are not found to be clear of murmurs or other abnormalities upon examination with a Doppler (ultrasound) exam by a Board Certified Cardiologist 
f) positive tests for Spincerebellar/Hereditary Ataxia 
g) positive tests for PRA 
h) positive tests for any other hereditary/congenital/genetic disease


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

Note 3) No dog that has ever been diagnosed with a hereditary/congenital skin disease (including demodectic mange) shall ever be bred. A dog with chronic health problems (such as skin allergies) and/or weaknesses, and/or immune weakness shall never be bred. A dog that has torn anterior cruxiate cigaments (ACL) shall never be bred unless the torn ligaments were damaged because of conceivable stress and/or injury which indicate normal environmental causes and not hereditary/congenital/genetic weakness. 

5) chooses breeding stock that conforms to the Standard(s) of the applicable recognized Pit Bull registry. 

6) registers breeding stock and produced litters with a recognized Pit Bull registry. 
Item 1: For the sake of this Code of Ethics, recognized Pit Bull registries will be considered the United Kennel Club and the American Dog Breeders Association (for American Pit Bull Terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers being registered as American Pit Bull Terriers), and the American Kennel Club (for American Staffordshire Terriers). These organizations are the oldest and hold breed standards that are most sought after and followed. 

7) only breeds mature (over 2 years of age) dogs. Does not breed elderly bwitches, nor does the Ethical Pit Bull breeder breed any one b-witch more than once every 24 months. 

seeks validation of quality of breeding stock through competition in organized dog sports and subsequent achievement of titles and certifications such as: 

a) UKC, ADBA, and AKC conformation, obedience, agility, and performance titles 
b) certifications such as the AKC’s Canine Good Citizen (CGC), American Temperament 
Test Society’s Temperament Tested (TT), Therapy Dogs International’s Therapy Dog International (TDI), and other similar, valid certifications. 
c) events, titles, and certifications offered by other valid organizations. 

9) breeds less than 3 litters every year. Should ideally breed no more than 1 litter a year. 

10) breeds when there is a specific demand for the puppies, and owners for puppies have been predetermined before birth. 

Section III: Puppies, Placement, and Care 

Note 5: Section III also applies to adolescent dogs and/or adult dogs any breeder may have in their care and potentially place. 

1) chooses homes based on ability to properly care for and handle a Pit Bull, and acts as match maker between puppy/dog and potential owner to ensure compatibility. 

Item 4: The quality of the home any puppy or dog is placed into should be of great importance. The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder only considers a potential owner that: 

a) has already done good breed research. Asks good questions. Shows willingness to learn more 
b) is realistic about breed challenges (dog-aggression, high energy levels, strong and pushy, breed specific legislation, rental and home owners insurance issues, bad reputation of breed, etc.) 
c) shows a stable, mature, open-minded personality 
d) is happy to be interviewed and receive a home inspection 
e) is physically capable of handling a strong dog 
f) wants an indoor pet as a companion animal/family member 
g) has had some dog experience and knowledge of basic training. 
h) has a reasonably active lifestyle and is prepared to satisfy dog's daily exercise needs 
i) owns a home or has a secure rental that will allow a Pit Bull (should provide proof in lease) 
j) can provide safe containment: tall, secure fences if yard is present and working latches on gates. 
k) lives in a household (includes roommates, children, seniors) that is involved in the decision to bring a Pit Bull into the family and is able to help manage a dog 
l) has other pets in the home that are a good match and understands that Pit Bull must be separated from other pets when not supervised 

12) socializes and conducts basic training with all puppies before sending them to their new homes. 

13) microchips all puppies prior to sending them to their new homes. 

14) does not place puppies under 8 weeks of age. 

15) does not place puppies in areas where breed specific legislation that would endanger the puppy’s life or quality of life exists. 

16) provides legally-binding, non-expiring contracts upon purchase that protect buyer as well as puppy. Contract certifies health (congenital, genetic, hereditary) and temperamental soundness of puppy. Assures puppy is disease-free prior to placement through records detailing proper veterinary and health care. Contract includes clause that requires new owner to relocate with the dog, or return the dog to the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder in the event that breed specific legislation that would endanger the puppy’s life or quality of life is enacted in the new owner’s city/state. 

17) takes responsibility for any puppy produced, during any point in the lifetime of that puppy, should the original home become unable to care for the puppy or grown adult dog. 

1 sends puppies home with papers from the recognized Pit Bull registry to allow the new owner to register the puppy in his/her name; unless the puppy is pet stock and is not spayed or neutered prior to going to new home, in which case, the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder will withhold papers until the new owner can provide proof of spay/neuter. It is strongly advised, however, that the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder spays/neuters all pet stock prior to placement in new homes. 

Item 5: “Pet stock” is any puppy that is not or would not potentially be bred by an Ethical Pit Bull Breeder, and/or any puppy that will not potentially be shown in conformation events. 

19) after sending puppy home, offers support indefinitely to new owner by way of breed counseling, training/behavior advice, health care information, referrals, etc. 

20) recognizes that breeding is not a money making venture, a business, nor a means to bring in extra money. Stud fees and sale prices of puppies should reflect the costs of ethical breeding. The ethical breeder does not see a profit at the end of the year, but may actually see a loss. 

(C) 2005 Mary Harwelik & Pit Bull Owners Alliance


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

:thumbsup: That is a great post Tasha. Maya there are so many unwanted pitbulls out there that I just can't see breeding two dogs because you think they are great or just to have puppies. Please reconsider breeding your dog. If you would like to have another pitbull visit a shelter and adopt one please.


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## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

I think that about covers it Tasha ...... lol :thumbsup: 

One question I can't ask enough...... and please answer it honestly...... Why do you want to breed her?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Thanks TASH



> Why do you want to breed her?


Thats a good one that needs to be thought long and hard about.


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## Maya (Oct 12, 2006)

*why do i want to breed her*

hello again

I want to breed her because I have so many people wanting to buy a puppy.
plus puppies are sooo cute.

oh and I did some more research and found a site that helped me understand the heat cycle.


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

**This is an estimated cost from a Boxer breeders site. Some of this sdoes not apply to APBT's. But can still give you an understanding about how much it costs.**
http://www.bellcrestboxers.com/littercost.html

Cost of Raising a Litter

ESTIMATED COSTS OF RAISING A LITTER

Health Clearances for female before breeding including xrays for hip dysplasia, 
Heart certification by a board certified Cardiologist. VWD test, thryroid tests. $2500 
Examination of female before breeding, includes worm check, brucellosis test, booster immunizations, health certificate, etc. $250 
Stud average fee $1000 
Shipping (average 500-mile radius) $500 
Extra food and vitamins for female when 6 weeks in whelp $150 
Postpartum check for female $75 
Office visit - Examination of litter $75 
Tail docking and removal of dewclaws at $20 per puppy $220 
Puppy immunizations at $60 per puppy (4 series each) $480 
Ear cropping at $200 per puppy $1200 
Food and vitamins for puppies before and after weaning $800 
Worming at least twice at $40 per puppy $240 
Cleaning and disinfecting supplies from birth until puppies leave home $150 
TOTAL AMOUNT $7,440

* Note * The above cost estimate does not include the cost of travelling to get required health testing done nor the costs for showing the female previous to her breeding. If she is a Champion, add the cost of entry fees, travel expenses, and handling fees to the above total.

It also does not include the cost of the breeders time in whelping and properly caring for the litter. The estimated cost also assumes that nothing goes wrong, meaning, that a necessary c-section or other whelping complications would cost more. Emergency vet care and formula would be necessary should the mother die during whelping.

This should be enough to show you that Yes, there is money in dogs, lots of it....put there by the ethical breeders that love their breeds and want to do the best that they can for that breed.


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

Maya said:


> hello again
> 
> I want to breed her because I have so many people wanting to buy a puppy.
> plus puppies are sooo cute.
> ...


I don't mean to be rude but that is not a good reason to breed!!!!

If people want puppies there are plenty 100s,1000s at shelters, pounds, and rescues! I mean young puppies!
petfinder.com is always a good place to look.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

That is no reason at all to have puppies. Yes puppies are cute but the grow up and they produce more and then they have more and on and on and on. The shelters are loaded with all sorts of pitbulls. That type of breeding just boils my blood.


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## Maya (Oct 12, 2006)

there is nothing I can do for dogs in shelters. I'm sorry they are there but it's not my fault. I can't control whAT OTHER people do with their pets.

Why is it a bad thing for me to want to make some money when there are thousands of dog breeders in the world making theirs. What makes their dogs breedable and mine not? Is it because they have papers? Well so does mine. UKC papers and she is a beautiful dog with great temperment, not to mention how smart she is. 

Plus I'm not rich, and if my pet can make me some extra money why not?
I don't fight the dogs or anything so why are people getting hostile just becase I'm going to breed her? I don't understand..


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

Maya said:


> there is nothing I can do for dogs in shelters. I'm sorry they are there but it's not my fault. I can't control whAT OTHER people do with their pets.
> 
> Why is it a bad thing for me to want to make some money when there are thousands of dog breeders in the world making theirs. What makes their dogs breedable and mine not? Is it because they have papers? Well so does mine. UKC papers and she is a beautiful dog with great temperment, not to mention how smart she is.
> 
> ...


Breeders breed for the betterment of the breed NOT to make money. Alot of breeders will tell you after all the the breeding,stud costs,taking care of puppies, etc they barely break even with the money they spend.

I know your probably going to do it anyway.. I just hope your prepared for anything that COULD happen(not saying it will)..

-Mom needs a c-section
-pup gets suck in the birth canal
-mom decides she doesnt want to feed. So every 2 hours YOU have to get up and feed them.
-Pup is born with a serious defecit(sp)
-Pup dies(could you handle it?)
-You could not find suitable homes for all puppies. Are you going to keep all pups that have not found homes?
-I could go on and on with things that could happen

**I hope and pray you take all into consideration that everyone says here. If we didnt care about APBT's No one would respond!**


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## Maya (Oct 12, 2006)

what does bettermint of the breed mean?

I read the paper everyday and see plenty of dogs being sold for hundreds of dollars. Their not doing it for the money? I don't think so. And if my dog, which I have paid for shots, vitamins, food etc,. can contribute to my pocket, what's wrong with that? I love my dog and I'm not a bad person and no one will make me feel like a bad person just for letting my dog have puppies.

I have a regular vet that will counsel me and see my dog if anything goes wrong, I have been reading about possible complications and what to do if certain situations should arise. I am perfectly capable with handling little puppies should mom decides not to feed it. Besides I have alot of help here and I think My girl will make a great mommy. As for homes, I have 6 people already on a waiting list for a puppy. Anymore I will advertise in the newspaper. If they don't sell at my asking price within 2 weeks I will lower them. or keep em. I have a nice size yard, and plenty of time on my hands. 
Thanx for all your input.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Maya,
Is this your girl's first heat? You should wait until she is @ least 2 yrs. old.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

*hey Maya*

these pups are in shelter right now. they didnt ask for a life of uncertainty and all this would have been avoided if someone would have taken advantage of advice given by the most experienced pit owners in the world.fyi last month alone 16 pups came in with parvo owners/ breeders were overwelmed by a disease that they had no control over. all pups died and I swear it wasnt nice to watch. this is the busiest time for shelter pups, next busiest is 2 weeks after christmas, about the time you would have pups.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

http://www.pbrc.net/breeding.html


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

They're all soooo beautiful. Those poor babies. It could have all been avoided...


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## littleboyblue (Feb 19, 2006)

*ok*

i wasn't going to touch this one but I cant help it anymore.. other than the fact that the reason is so immoral that I cant stand it.. Did you actually read how much having a healthy litter actually costs? I do breed but by no means do I do it for the money very rarely do i make a profit...You are not understanding that you are doing it for the money and that if you do it correctly there will be no financial gain?I understand that their are also other "back yard breeders" that ARE breeding to try to make a profit and we don't agree with them doing it either, so you keep bringing that up has no weight on the discussion... I am sure that some people make money by breeding dogs, but they do it all wrong they don't take the parents for the tests needed to be done for breeding.. can you even name the 3 MOST IMPORTANT tests that a female needs to have before being bred? and they don't take the mother in for office visits while pregnant.. and they don't take the pups in and have them examined, and dewormed and vaccinated, and they are not health certified. do you even know where to take your dog to have them health certified?without doing all that yeah I am sure you may make a profit. but I really feel sorry for the people that may be getting a puppy with a genetic disorder, or that may die of distemper or parvo from not being vaccinated, or ending up having skin complications, all things that happen when the dam is not tested and the litter is not properly cared for and raised....And just like you said you are not rich......so how to you expect to be able to pay for everything that goes involved with taking care of a pregnant bitch or raising a litter of puppies? the average cost of raising a healthy litter minus Stud fee because you already have a "sperm donor" is still around 5-6,000 and that has to come out of your pocket before you sell the pups.. then even if you sell the pups for 600.00 a piece which I doubt you get you would barely break even, for a 10 pup litter... like Tasha said I am sure that you are going to do what you want anyway, and I am sure you are still going to or have already bred your Dog.....If you have good luck and if you didn't get the appropriate tests needed before breeding you may make a couple hundred dollars.. With that I am sure you will be able to up size next time you go out for dinner at the local McDonald's..


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## littleboyblue (Feb 19, 2006)

Maya said:


> there is nothing I can do for dogs in shelters. I'm sorry they are there but it's not my fault. I can't control whAT OTHER people do with their pets.
> 
> Yes there is you can send the people that are looking to buy one of your pups to the local shelter where they can find a companion and save it from death..


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## Maya (Oct 12, 2006)

littleboyblue said:


> i wasn't going to touch this one but I cant help it anymore.. other than the fact that the reason is so immoral that I cant stand it.. Did you actually read how much having a healthy litter actually costs? I do breed but by no means do I do it for the money very rarely do i make a profit...You are not understanding that you are doing it for the money and that if you do it correctly there will be no financial gain?I understand that their are also other "back yard breeders" that ARE breeding to try to make a profit and we don't agree with them doing it either, so you keep bringing that up has no weight on the discussion... I am sure that some people make money by breeding dogs, but they do it all wrong they don't take the parents for the tests needed to be done for breeding.. can you even name the 3 MOST IMPORTANT tests that a female needs to have before being bred? and they don't take the mother in for office visits while pregnant.. and they don't take the pups in and have them examined, and dewormed and vaccinated, and they are not health certified. do you even know where to take your dog to have them health certified?without doing all that yeah I am sure you may make a profit. but I really feel sorry for the people that may be getting a puppy with a genetic disorder, or that may die of distemper or parvo from not being vaccinated, or ending up having skin complications, all things that happen when the dam is not tested and the litter is not properly cared for and raised....And just like you said you are not rich......so how to you expect to be able to pay for everything that goes involved with taking care of a pregnant bitch or raising a litter of puppies? the average cost of raising a healthy litter minus Stud fee because you already have a "sperm donor" is still around 5-6,000 and that has to come out of your pocket before you sell the pups.. then even if you sell the pups for 600.00 a piece which I doubt you get you would barely break even, for a 10 pup litter... like Tasha said I am sure that you are going to do what you want anyway, and I am sure you are still going to or have already bred your Dog.....If you have good luck and if you didn't get the appropriate tests needed before breeding you may make a couple hundred dollars.. With that I am sure you will be able to up size next time you go out for dinner at the local McDonald's..


Whoa! this is what I get for asking advice.

Ok where did you get 5-6,000 figure from?
My vet only charges 40.00 to vaccinate and deworm a pup. As for mom, she is 100% healthy! Like I said I'm not responsible for what another person does with their animals. All my puppies will have shots and if any have a major health defect or serious problem I will do the humane thing and have it put down. As for tests I've heard OFA and some other tests which are not necessary because my dog and her parents and great grand parents have not been and they all are healthy and happy dogs. Now my brother's dog I just know the momma dog but he has been properly vaccinated and cared for. I 'm not trying to sell someone a sick puppy.
Some of y'all are being a bit ridiculous. and TRUST all my puppies will be dewormed and vaccinated when they go. I wouldn't want anyone to sell me a sick puppy so I wouldn't do it to them.

The way I see it it'll run me bout, give or take 400.00 on shots, and worms. Say 75.00 on a few big bags of puppy food. this dog vitamin my vet gave to my dog called Pet Tinic which is sold in her office at 9.95 which worked well. Get about 3 bottles to last 4 to 8 weeks. that's only bout 500.00. I'll make that back with selling 1 puppy.

I still don't understand what " breed for the bettermint of the breed" means.
To get a perfect pitbull breed standard? Who decides what dog is better than what dog?

Call me a backyard breeder.
Making money off a dog is immoral? PLEASE! There are for worse ways to make money. When it comes down to it, life is all about tryna make that mighty dollar.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

holy shit its about to get deep


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

You guy's are wasting your time this person obvisouly dosen't care about anything but money.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

BACK YARD BREEDER!!!!!!!!!!
and for the rest of your babble, typical for a child


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

Maya said:


> Whoa! this is what I get for asking advice.
> 
> Ok where did you get 5-6,000 figure from?
> My vet only charges 40.00 to vaccinate and deworm a pup. As for mom, she is 100% healthy! Like I said I'm not responsible for what another person does with their animals. All my puppies will have shots and if any have a major health defect or serious problem I will do the humane thing and have it put down. As for tests I've heard OFA and some other tests which are not necessary because my dog and her parents and great grand parents have not been and they all are healthy and happy dogs. Now my brother's dog I just know the momma dog but he has been properly vaccinated and cared for. I 'm not trying to sell someone a sick puppy.
> ...


Okay let me give you an example my dad did a 
PRIVATE breeding meaning he kept all the pups. Well we ended up with 13 pups none died. Now he had already did all the health screenings way before. But he put the breeding off until both dogs got some titles. Now 13x whatever costs at the time to get pups vaccinated, dewormed. He spent THOUSANDS of dollars!


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

*Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Didnt see the part aboout making money off a dog is immoral!

YES! HELL YEAH! ITS IMMORAL!:stick:

Wow puppy peddler #5,500,637! It's quite disgusting IMO!


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

yep yep i knew it was bout to get deep haha


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

wheezie said:


> yep yep i knew it was bout to get deep haha


Lol. I thought I would try to help her understand and give her as much info. as I possibly can. I don't think I will be responding to this one anymore. This has got some steam shooting out of my ears! lol


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i understand i was gonna say something but i knew mikado and expecially you would be all over this one I've seen some similar post before


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Ignorance pisses me off!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> hello again
> 
> I want to breed her because I have so many people wanting to buy a puppy.
> plus puppies are sooo cute.
> ...


Come on folks when I read this it struck me a little funny and I had a feeling I knew where it was headed. DO NOT TAKE THIS PERSON SERIOUSLY, you all are reacting exactly the way they want you to. This is nothing more than goading! Let it be and ignore the thread. Trust me when they dont get the attention it will either go away or they will find another touchy topic.


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## littleboyblue (Feb 19, 2006)

Maya said:


> Whoa! this is what I get for asking advice.
> 
> Ok where did you get 5-6,000 figure from?
> My vet only charges 40.00 to vaccinate and deworm a pup. As for mom, she is 100% healthy! Like I said I'm not responsible for what another person does with their animals. All my puppies will have shots and if any have a major health defect or serious problem I will do the humane thing and have it put down. As for tests I've heard OFA and some other tests which are not necessary because my dog and her parents and great grand parents have not been and they all are healthy and happy dogs. Now my brother's dog I just know the momma dog but he has been properly vaccinated and cared for. I 'm not trying to sell someone a sick puppy.
> ...


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ok this is what pisses me off, Everyone here is attacking this person for asking for help, why?? She asked a question, thats it... Another thing... Everyone is praising "jas n ros" for the pups that their dog just had??? Are they breeders?? No... I dont think that they are.. So why is no one attacking them?? And to me, there dogs look like brother and sister... ( and to be fair i know that my dogs are the same colour and all, but they are not the same age, and both of Harleys parents have been dead for over 3 years. So its impossible) BUt i really think that calling her ignorant and saying that she dont know anything is not cool!!! Where was everyone before they became a breeder??? Same place that she is... How many breeders here are licenced?? I know a few are.. But everyone has to start somewhere, and if this ban gets over lifted, i will be breeding my dog. So does that make me ignorant?? I have breeders offer there males to stud!! So if she does the same thing, Does that make her ignorant?? 
Maya, i have some info for you.. Get a stud sevice.. If you can find a great breeder in your area, ask them how much to use their dogs to stud. I know a girl in Canada that charges $1000 for her dogs fees and another that charges $500, I'd go with the $1000 tho, her dog is a champion, I can get his pedigree and stuff, but like i said, im in canada.. 
You guys are great on this site, and i value what you do and how you all do it, but to attack her is not fair!! I had 2 litters of pitbulls over 4 years ago, and it made me a smarter person, watchng them grow and stuff... Awww i miss it. I spend alot of time with those pups.. At least 3 hrs a day, just playing and feeding and socializing them with people and children. Im just hoping that you dont think im ignorant.. I have found dogs in The toronto humane society WITH PAPERS, its not often, but i have seen it... So a breeder could sell a dog and it could still end up in a shelter.. Its the people that buy the dog, Not the person that bred the pups. Dont get me wrong, i do not agree with breeding for a buck, that is wrong and if that is why people breed, they should be shot and pissed on, but for the experience and if they truly have a great dog, like we all do, Then maybe passing down a good temperment gene aint such a bad thing.
I think if she wants to breed her dog, she should get help with it.. Im sorry guys, i had to stick up for her, i'm in the same situation that she is


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Slow down Pantera....did you read this post??

Quotes from MAYA



> Why is it a bad thing for me to want to make some money when there are thousands of dog breeders in the world making theirs. What makes their dogs breedable and mine not? Is it because they have papers? Well so does mine. UKC papers and she is a beautiful dog with great temperment, not to mention how smart she is.
> 
> Plus I'm not rich, and if my pet can make me some extra money why not?





> Call me a backyard breeder.
> Making money off a dog is immoral? PLEASE! There are for worse ways to make money. When it comes down to it, life is all about tryna make that mighty dollar.


now your quote



> Dont get me wrong, i do not agree with breeding for a buck, that is wrong and if that is why people breed, they should be shot and pissed on,


????????


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> Slow down Pantera....did you read this post??
> 
> Quotes from MAYA
> 
> ...


OMG!!!!!! I didnt see that part!!!!!:stupid: Wow!!! Ok, my bad!!!! Sorry


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> Ok this is what pisses me off, Everyone here is attacking this person for asking for help, why?? She asked a question, thats it... Another thing... Everyone is praising "jas n ros" for the pups that their dog just had??? Are they breeders?? No... I dont think that they are.. So why is no one attacking them?? And to me, there dogs look like brother and sister... ( and to be fair i know that my dogs are the same colour and all, but they are not the same age, and both of Harleys parents have been dead for over 3 years. So its impossible) BUt i really think that calling her ignorant and saying that she dont know anything is not cool!!! Where was everyone before they became a breeder??? Same place that she is... How many breeders here are licenced?? I know a few are.. But everyone has to start somewhere, and if this ban gets over lifted, i will be breeding my dog. So does that make me ignorant?? I have breeders offer there males to stud!! So if she does the same thing, Does that make her ignorant??
> Maya, i have some info for you.. Get a stud sevice.. If you can find a great breeder in your area, ask them how much to use their dogs to stud. I know a girl in Canada that charges $1000 for her dogs fees and another that charges $500, I'd go with the $1000 tho, her dog is a champion, I can get his pedigree and stuff, but like i said, im in canada..
> You guys are great on this site, and i value what you do and how you all do it, but to attack her is not fair!! I had 2 litters of pitbulls over 4 years ago, and it made me a smarter person, watchng them grow and stuff... Awww i miss it. I spend alot of time with those pups.. At least 3 hrs a day, just playing and feeding and socializing them with people and children. Im just hoping that you dont think im ignorant.. I have found dogs in The toronto humane society WITH PAPERS, its not often, but i have seen it... So a breeder could sell a dog and it could still end up in a shelter.. Its the people that buy the dog, Not the person that bred the pups. Dont get me wrong, i do not agree with breeding for a buck, that is wrong and if that is why people breed, they should be shot and pissed on, but for the experience and if they truly have a great dog, like we all do, Then maybe passing down a good temperment gene aint such a bad thing.
> I think if she wants to breed her dog, she should get help with it.. Im sorry guys, i had to stick up for her, i'm in the same situation that she is


I was not attacking her. I was giving her information at the beginning up until she said breeding to make a buck! "Jas N Ros's" dogs do look alike but it doesnt mean they are brother and sister. They might not have even got them from the same breeder. "Jas N Ros" also didnt ask a question like Maya's and then reply like she did.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

I just saw that person was being attacked, but i also didnt see alot of what she wrote, I skimmed thro all of it and didnt see what exactly what she wrote, So it was my bad. But people cant give one person crap but then praise a person for doing the same thing, am i not right??


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i see what your sayin pantera but like everyone including you i dont agree with breeding just to make money, i have been thinkin for a while tho.... a lot of people on this site will say dont breed, adopt, but then i see these same people breeding, or making plans on breeding. I'm not tryin to offend anyone im just sayin what I've observed. if the shelter which everyone says are overcrowded and all these pities need adopted then shouldnt, EVERYONE take there oun advice and stop breeding for the time being. even i am being contradicting because in the back of my mind i wana buy a good game breed APBT from a well known, well respected breeder. i dont know... now im just rambaling


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## Jas N Ros (May 16, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> Ok this is what pisses me off, Everyone here is attacking this person for asking for help, why?? She asked a question, thats it... Another thing... Everyone is praising "jas n ros" for the pups that their dog just had??? Are they breeders?? No... I dont think that they are.. So why is no one attacking them?? And to me, there dogs look like brother and sister... ( and to be fair i know that my dogs are the same colour and all, but they are not the same age, and both of Harleys parents have been dead for over 3 years. So its impossible) BUt i really think that calling her ignorant and saying that she dont know anything is not cool!!! Where was everyone before they became a breeder??? Same place that she is... How many breeders here are licenced?? I know a few are.. But everyone has to start somewhere, and if this ban gets over lifted, i will be breeding my dog. So does that make me ignorant?? I have breeders offer there males to stud!! So if she does the same thing, Does that make her ignorant??
> Maya, i have some info for you.. Get a stud sevice.. If you can find a great breeder in your area, ask them how much to use their dogs to stud. I know a girl in Canada that charges $1000 for her dogs fees and another that charges $500, I'd go with the $1000 tho, her dog is a champion, I can get his pedigree and stuff, but like i said, im in canada..
> You guys are great on this site, and i value what you do and how you all do it, but to attack her is not fair!! I had 2 litters of pitbulls over 4 years ago, and it made me a smarter person, watchng them grow and stuff... Awww i miss it. I spend alot of time with those pups.. At least 3 hrs a day, just playing and feeding and socializing them with people and children. Im just hoping that you dont think im ignorant.. I have found dogs in The toronto humane society WITH PAPERS, its not often, but i have seen it... So a breeder could sell a dog and it could still end up in a shelter.. Its the people that buy the dog, Not the person that bred the pups. Dont get me wrong, i do not agree with breeding for a buck, that is wrong and if that is why people breed, they should be shot and pissed on, but for the experience and if they truly have a great dog, like we all do, Then maybe passing down a good temperment gene aint such a bad thing.
> I think if she wants to breed her dog, she should get help with it.. Im sorry guys, i had to stick up for her, i'm in the same situation that she is


oh so i see i get dragged into something that i took no part in speaking about...but since you opened the door and invited me in so to speak, lets get this thing started....first off far from brother and sister...not only where they purchased from 2 differant towns on the complete opposite side of new jersey, but they arnt the same age. they are a month apart and everyone knows you dont sell a dog untill 2.5-3 months of age which would mean my male was born before the female was. reason they look soo close is because i only wanted ALL black dogs, so i saught to find the closes dogs to that. i am very happy with my pick. and no one is ripping me apart for breading because im not breeding for money. my dogs have amazing personality, the male has alot of strength which will be proved when I feel hes ready to pull weight and compete. the female is absolutly gorgeous, so attacking me dogs and why i chose to breed to justify this dits who this whole conversation started over makes you completly out of line. did any one pick up on when she said and i quote "i pay for all my dogs shots and toys..ect...why cant i breed to make money off her"? WHY???? is owning the dog not enough??? is having a life long friend who will love you no matter what not enough?? i bought my dogs to compete and to show everyone that the name "pitbull" doesnt mean vicious killer. and i am doing a great job at it. now by the time i send my pups to there new homes, where i WILL request that they are spayed or neutered before papers are handed out, i will also be sending bags of food with each one, a pup starter cage, informational books, and toys to make the pups new home more welcoming. and not only that i plan to be very active in the new owners life as so if they cant take care of the dog anylonger for ANY reason i will take him/her back. so please before you actually open your mouth and drag someone into a problem who took no part in it from the get go, make sure you know MY INTENSIONS before blurtting my name out like im a BYB. because the way i see if your the one defending one. cutting coners with her pups to make a profit, she has no idea what shes getting herself into, im just lucky there were no complications. but hey its her life she can and will do what shes wants and you will defend her just like your doing. thank you for getting me all worked up for no reason.


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## littleboyblue (Feb 19, 2006)

*ok for pantera*

I was not bashing her either.. I was only letting iher know what she is getting herself into and that breeding THE CORRECT WAY will not make her money...I have no doubt if she does things correctly and gets the correct testing needed for her female and the male that she may be able to breed and become a reputable breeder in time.. but that is what we are trying to get thru to her... If she doesn't even know about the heat cycle them there is a lot that she needs to learn and read up on before even thinking about breeding.. I am licensed and do have a kennel license as well.. and yes I did have to start somewhere but before I bred my first dog I knew about heat cycles, and pregnancy, and the complications that may go hand and hand with breeding.. I also had all of the dogs health and temperament tested.. and like I tried to tell her I ave very rarely made any EXTRA Profit from breeding what I don't spend during breeding and raising the pups I put back into the kennel and I also donate a portion of every litter to local shelters and to fight BSL.. when I even have that left over to donate... I think that the reason that she was "bashed" or "attacked" is because we are trying to get thru to her that she needs to read up and know more before breeding and that breeding is not to made in the place of a 9-5 job because the bills will never get paid that way, if everything is done correctly...after the couple of replies letting her know that she began to tell us that she was doing it just for the money and because puppies are "so cute"......I have nothing against reputable breeders... BUT i do have something against Backyard breeders that do not do what is suppose to be done just to make a extra buck, at the expense and health of her pet..I mean I had a female that I tested and she came back fine to breed when she had the pups we found out that her calcium drops very low when she is pregnant and she has to be on calcium supplements and a calcium shot every day while pregnant as well as the obvious of putting her on puppy food while pregnant and giving a daily calcium vitamin. after that litter of pups she was spayed... What is going to happen when that happens? Is she just going to throw this dog away and get another female because this one can no longer earn her keep? or will she just continue to breed her putting her health at risk and possibly passing the trait to her female pups? sorry rambling my point is I guess it looks to me like she only got her to breed her and make money Things happen and many times they have to be spayed, or have c-sections and it is not safe to bred again I feel for the dog when and if that happens..

But if she decided that she wanted to become a breeder for the correct reasons.. then we can all give advice on how she can do that fill her in on the info she needs to know let her know where she needs to take the dogs for the testing that they need,and what to expect... but after the first litter of doing things right I guarantee that being in the hole she will decide not to breed again..


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

First off there were a great many good post on this subject. I agree with OldFort this person is egging us on. Jas-n-Ros I'm sorry you drug into this whole mess. I have seen your website I personnally believe that we should not breed any breed of dog until the shelters are empty but I feel from your past posts that you are trying to do good with your dogs. Redog I wish that all those pups find great homes real soon. I love Fly I wish I could have him. This person is as bullhead and ignorant as one can be. She has been offered some great advice but yet she feels compelled to breed her dog for $$$ that is just wrong!!!! People like that will not change their minds they are set in their ways and she will just feel sorry for herself and think we are picking on her. I hope the Gods will watch over those poor puppies. Oh by the way LIFE isn't about making the ALMIGHTY DOLLAR We are responisable for leaving this Earth a little better than how we found it. We are here to do right by the creatures of this planet the two legged and the four.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

this fools the perfect example of 90% of apbt owners and breeders,
"A STRAIGHT UP NOVICE".
get a cat or better yet get a life.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ya i relize that now, I really didnt see the stuff that she wrote, I saw bits and pieces of it. I really figured that she wanted to breed top notce dogs and wasnt doing it for the money. In Canada it is against the law to breed any dog with out a licence. But when i came to this site, I had mentioned that i had bred my dog, and i too was called a backyard breeder. I had someone tell me that i should have made my dog have an abortion, why?? Because people thought that i only wanted to make money. No that was not true, cuz like people here have said, You make none!! I know that, I totally understand what you are saying, all of you, but if i had a website, would i be called a backyard breeder still?? Im just trying to understand what it takes to be a respected breeder like all you guys?? Do you have to be licenced? Ok, let me used this example, If i bred Harley and Pantera, but got all the shots, and puppy packages, but didnt get there papers, Is that still bad?? (I cant get the papers tho, cuz Harley dont have them) I know people that are not breeders but still bred their dogs and got the pups papers and shots. Is that good breeding?? Or even if someone bred and didnt get papers or shots, is that bad?? If she thinks that she will make anymoney from breeding, she is sadly mistaken!! I didnt make a thing!!!! Maybe dog food money and thats it!! But im sorry to have used the wrong people for example. I just dont understand. Im guessing that what you are saying to breed a "good quailty" pitbull, you gotta know what you are doing??? Right?


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Jas N Ros said:


> oh so i see i get dragged into something that i took no part in speaking about...but since you opened the door and invited me in so to speak, lets get this thing started....first off far from brother and sister...not only where they purchased from 2 differant towns on the complete opposite side of new jersey, but they arnt the same age. they are a month apart and everyone knows you dont sell a dog untill 2.5-3 months of age which would mean my male was born before the female was. reason they look soo close is because i only wanted ALL black dogs, so i saught to find the closes dogs to that. i am very happy with my pick. and no one is ripping me apart for breading because im not breeding for money. my dogs have amazing personality, the male has alot of strength which will be proved when I feel hes ready to pull weight and compete. the female is absolutly gorgeous, so attacking me dogs and why i chose to breed to justify this dits who this whole conversation started over makes you completly out of line. did any one pick up on when she said and i quote "i pay for all my dogs shots and toys..ect...why cant i breed to make money off her"? WHY???? is owning the dog not enough??? is having a life long friend who will love you no matter what not enough?? i bought my dogs to compete and to show everyone that the name "pitbull" doesnt mean vicious killer. and i am doing a great job at it. now by the time i send my pups to there new homes, where i WILL request that they are spayed or neutered before papers are handed out, i will also be sending bags of food with each one, a pup starter cage, informational books, and toys to make the pups new home more welcoming. and not only that i plan to be very active in the new owners life as so if they cant take care of the dog anylonger for ANY reason i will take him/her back. so please before you actually open your mouth and drag someone into a problem who took no part in it from the get go, make sure you know MY INTENSIONS before blurtting my name out like im a BYB. because the way i see if your the one defending one. cutting coners with her pups to make a profit, she has no idea what shes getting herself into, im just lucky there were no complications. but hey its her life she can and will do what shes wants and you will defend her just like your doing. thank you for getting me all worked up for no reason.


 Ok can i ask you this???? Why would you breed your dog at only 10 months old???Just to ask a question?? You said in May, that your dog was only 7 months old right??? Ok, so lets do some math!!! 63-65 days gestation, takes it back to begining of aug right??? ok, in aug your dog was only 10 months old and your male was 11. Im guessing that it was your dogs first heat, cuz they go in heat every 4-6 months and i doubt that your dog was in heat at 4 months. The average age for a heat is 8 months and Pantera had her heat at 8 months. Doing a great job, would have been NOT breeding your dog that young!!!! Did anyone else notice this or was it just me???


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Hey guys I just want to clear the air, I am a rescue guy, breeding is not my favorite topic, because of what I see constantly every day in the shelter, It makes me want to puke. I Know first hand that no dogs there have come from champion bloodlines or have ever been registered with a kennel club or even come from a well planned breeding. , I do understand the need for quality dogs for show, family and competition and I will support people who breed responsibly and carefully to presrve blood and to make the breed better, they dont sell puppies that end up in a shelter.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Im in ontario, and i can tell you this,People dont want their dogs because of the MEDIA!!!!!!! They see all the BS on Tv about "pitbulls being evil, and the kill babies and children" So they look at their dog and see a time bomb!!! They dont want the critism of owning the dog, So where do these poor dogs go?? The shelter, or worse. People have been killing them here. A man came up to me and asked if i wanted to buy his "champion pitbull" for $500 cuz he didnt want the BS. I asked what he was paperd under and he said ADBA and UKC. People dont want to stick with their dogs, Its easier on them to just give them up!!! Go look on the toronto humane society site. It tells you that they have had inpour of Pitbulls and pitbull "Dogs" So lets not blame anyone for dogs in shelters, Lets blame TV!!!!! Oh and ignorant people?????


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## Nation (Sep 27, 2006)

My major problem with BYB is they sell to anyone thus the problem with all these pits in rescues or in shelters. 

A good breeder IMO will screen thier buyer and make sure there dog is being placed in a good home.

Also as disturbing as it is I would never take a dog from a shelter for one I dont know his background two I have children and thats just too big of a risk for me to take not knowing what I may be getting.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Nation said:


> My major problem with BYB is they sell to anyone thus the problem with all these pits in rescues or in shelters.
> 
> A good breeder IMO will screen thier buyer and make sure there dog is being placed in a good home.
> 
> Also as disturbing as it is I would never take a dog from a shelter for one I dont know his background two I have children and thats just too big of a risk for me to take not knowing what I may be getting.


I so agree with you!!!! And i am glad that you do that!!! And I had that done to me!! I had too sign a contract saying that i Had to fix my female But i really see no diffrernce in what Jas and ros are doin... I knoe not to breed my dog before 18 months!!! So why are they not Back yard breeders but this Maya is???


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Nation said:


> Also as disturbing as it is I would never take a dog from a shelter for one I dont know his background two I have children and thats just too big of a risk for me to take not knowing what I may be getting.


You are absolutly right about this, thats why I do what I do. the shelter never placed pits before, they were put down at the county before we ever saw them, but with the help of other pit owners, dog trainers and other volunteers ,we spend many hours every week to make sure they are safe to go to a home. adopters are screened and placements are made with the tightest scrutiny. on average, adult pits are here for abot a year, some go home at night with volunteers and all are worked with daily. socialization and intense situational behavior excersises. this cost alot of money and takes alot of time and I take it seriously. I understand the way you feel and many people feel the same way, there are dogs there that I would never bring home to my kids. but I know these dogs and I have no problem bringing most of them into my home.It does make better dogs out of them and is beneficial to there placements. All 3 of my dogs were orphans and are perfect examples of highly trained, even tempered, family, house dogs


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I agree with you Redog both Mikado and Chalice are rescue dogs. Mikado has his cgc and is a therapy dog he is a wonderful example of an APBT. Chalice is still a puppy but she goes into the Cennex store and L&M Fleet and she is just perfect she loves people she starts her therapy training on thursday. I too don't care for breeding when you work in rescue it changes your mind about having puppies or kittens there are just too many and not enough homes. To me (my opinion) a BYB is some one just in it for the $$$ they get the puppies their first shots or no shots they don't find out anything about the buyer they don't do any follow up checks they let the pups go at 5 or 6wks of age. I feel a good breeder looks into the home does the shots follows up on the placement and doesn't get rid of the pups at first sign of weening.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

LOL Ya, true!!! I know i have been through the whole breeder thing.. I had to sign a contract to have Pantera fixed and not bred at all... Mind you, i am showing her soon!! :cheers: So shes not fixed, but i have told the breeder that and they are fine, cuz they go to the shows too.. So i see em there. Reddog- i so respect you!! You must work your ass off to find these little souls a new good home!! It must be hard. A breed that is as discrimated as the pitbull as a hard enough time, let alone being put in a shelter for an unknown reason... Its not fair..


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