# what causes a bully pup to have these?



## lawrence_tbs (Dec 18, 2009)

This happened 1month ago and just wanna ask again on some opinions to many pit experts here.

The story goes like these;
One of our neighbor sell this pup to me, i thought the pup was perfect but later on like 3 days after my mom saw something on the pup that was different at 1st i thought it was just ok, i was thinking maybe because it's a bully that's why its legs are like that and maybe its body is too heavy. But when i let my friend look at the pup he said it's not good, it's a deformity. So i talked again with the seller(our neighbor) and returned the pup 1week after i bought it and he also return the cash that i pay.

NOTE:
-the pup is my 1st pitbull 
-our neighbor (he was a friend of my friend, he owns some pitbull that's why i trusted him easily)

here's the pic:

























SO what do you think causes its leg to be like that?


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Your pup seems to be suffering weakened pasterns. It looks a little bit severe now this could be genetic, did you see both the mother and father of the pup? This is the result of a bad breeding and overfeeding in my opinion. Poor puppy =*(


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm sure your feeding large breed dog food... get him off of that like uh.. now... you have a medium sized dog. What your dog is suffering from is knuckling. Weak paterns would actually be the reverse of this problem... this is definitely the result from improper nutrition

Here's a link on Knuckling
Knuckling Over and HOD - Developmental Orthopedic Disease | GREATDANELADY.COM

Here's a link to weak pasterns
http://www.grunfeldshepherds.com/articles/lanting/pdfs/carpal.PDF


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## lawrence_tbs (Dec 18, 2009)

yeah i saw the sire, it was handsome UKC reg. I also saw the dam and it was also beautiful but not as much as the sire... bad breeding? what does it mean? like what in the puppy mill does? about overfeeding the pup was really fat when i 1st got it...


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> I'm sure your feeding large breed dog food... get him off of that like uh.. now... What your dog is suffering from is knuckling. Weak paterns would actually be the reverse of this problem
> 
> Here's a link on Knuckling
> Knuckling Over and HOD - Developmental Orthopedic Disease | GREATDANELADY.COM
> ...


Thanks for the correction, now what is your experience with dog food and puppies. I fear that Bernie was having weak pasterns so I kept him on Canidae All Life Stages it has 24% protein, I was feeding it boiled chicken with it but because Bernie was growing so fast and so much I took the boiled chicken away. Now sometimes I have noticed him Knuckling over on a like one leg depending on how he is standing which worries me sometimes. Now I read a part in the article that stated:

5) too many calories vs the amount of free exercise they get on a daily bases

Pardon my ignorance but does this mean that he is getting too many calories and not enough exercise?


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

davidfitness83 said:


> Thanks for the correction, now what is your experience with dog food and puppies. I fear that Bernie was having weak pasterns so I kept him on Canidae All Life Stages it has 24% protein, I was feeding it boiled chicken with it but because Bernie was growing so fast and so much I took the boiled chicken away. Now sometimes I have noticed him Knuckling over on a like one leg depending on how he is standing which worries me sometimes. Now I read a part in the article that stated:
> 
> 5) too many calories vs the amount of free exercise they get on a daily bases
> 
> Pardon my ignorance but does this mean that he is getting too many calories and not enough exercise?


Well, with my experience I corrected Felonys weak hawks with DVP LID venison and sweet potato and I let her get out and run the yard more. It really was a simple fix... but it's because i caught it before it got really bad. She's not 100% but she's a lot better, feet are tighter and her hawks are straigh-ER.

When Pig was around 6 weeks old I noticed the same thing you did with Bernie... i think it was her left front leg... At that point I had them on Eukanuba Puppy Large Breed (eukanuba was giving me free food at the time)... I attempted raw from there, and it corrected the knuckling, but they lost too much weight... From there I switched them to the DVP... a month or two later I got Felony back and had to fix her too! lmfao.

The DVP L.I.D. sweet potato and venision is like 20% protien. It's an all life stages formula.
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/VenDog.html


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## lawrence_tbs (Dec 18, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> I'm sure your feeding large breed dog food... get him off of that like uh.. now... you have a medium sized dog. What your dog is suffering from is knuckling. Weak paterns would actually be the reverse of this problem... this is definitely the result from improper nutrition
> 
> Here's a link on Knuckling
> Knuckling Over and HOD - Developmental Orthopedic Disease | GREATDANELADY.COM
> ...


maybe the 1st owner of this pup feeds it with adult dogfood, because when it was with me i fed it with a puppy dogfood..
thank you so much for the info now i know what causes the pup to be like that..


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

lawrence_tbs said:


> maybe the 1st owner of this pup feeds it with adult dogfood, because when it was with me i fed it with a puppy dogfood..
> thank you so much for the info now i know what causes the pup to be like that..


There is a huge difference between large breed, medium and small breed puppy food. When I said dog food, I meant puppy food. This is something that is currently going on with YOUR feeding schedule. If it was an issue with the breeder it would have shown up while it was in his/her care.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Well, with my experience I corrected Felonys weak hawks with DVP LID venison and sweet potato and I let her get out and run the yard more. It really was a simple fix... but it's because i caught it before it got really bad. She's not 100% but she's a lot better, feet are tighter and her hawks are straigh-ER.
> 
> When Pig was around 6 weeks old I noticed the same thing you did with Bernie... i think it was her left front leg... At that point I had them on Eukanuba Puppy Large Breed (eukanuba was giving me free food at the time)... I attempted raw from there, and it corrected the knuckling, but they lost too much weight... From there I switched them to the DVP... a month or two later I got Felony back and had to fix her too! lmfao.
> 
> ...


So do you think canidae at 24% is a good food for the moment? I plan on switching bernie to TOTW around 11 months old or so when his growth plates are almost closed. I did a lot of research on it and it seems that there isn't an exact timeline as to when the growth plates close but usually between 12-18 months depending on the breed. I just don't want to force his growth but at the sametime I don't want him exercising too much at the moment, I want him to rest a lot and make sure his joints and bones grow properly. To be honest I only walk Bernie sometimes during the week when we train the heel which he is awesome at it but because of the weather and because I am starting obidience with him in January I don't want to start a scenario where he will be set up to fail (pulling). We do a lot of flirtpoling inside the house and outside as well as fetching. I am wondering if this is enough of if those walks on a hard surfaces are really necessary for his bone and muscle development.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

davidfitness83 said:


> So do you think canidae at 24% is a good food for the moment? I plan on switching bernie to TOTW around 11 months old or so when his growth plates are almost closed. I did a lot of research on it and it seems that there isn't an exact timeline as to when the growth plates close but usually between 12-18 months depending on the breed. I just don't want to force his growth but at the sametime I don't want him exercising too much at the moment, I want him to rest a lot and make sure his joints and bones grow properly. To be honest I only walk Bernie sometimes during the week when we train the heel which he is awesome at it but because of the weather and because I am starting obidience with him in January I don't want to start a scenario where he will be set up to fail (pulling). We do a lot of flirtpoling inside the house and outside as well as fetching. I am wondering if this is enough of if those walks on a hard surfaces are really necessary for his bone and muscle development.


IMO I would try reducing the protien intake. What's the worst that can happen... he looses a pound or two... which will help the pressure on his shaky leg. You want him to be able to be a puppy ya know. Well at least that's the route i took with Pig and Felony.


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## lawrence_tbs (Dec 18, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> Thanks for the correction, now what is your experience with dog food and puppies. I fear that Bernie was having weak pasterns so I kept him on Canidae All Life Stages it has 24% protein, I was feeding it boiled chicken with it but because Bernie was growing so fast and so much I took the boiled chicken away. Now sometimes I have noticed him Knuckling over on a like one leg depending on how he is standing which worries me sometimes. Now I read a part in the article that stated:
> 
> 5) too many calories vs the amount of free exercise they get on a daily bases
> 
> Pardon my ignorance but does this mean that he is getting too many calories and not enough exercise?


I also noticed when I still have the pup everytime he walks in a couple of minutes his legs are shaking and later on the pup will rest on the ground and the bending of its leg are really more obvious


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

lawrence_tbs said:


> I also noticed when I still have the pup everytime he walks in a couple of minutes his legs are shaking and later on the pup will rest on the ground and the bending of its leg are really more obvious


yeah, he's hurting alot. I wish him a speedy recovery!


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

Hi,
Make sure the pup is getting plenty of sunlight. If you are supplementing with red meat, stop, as it can mess up the phosphorous ratio on certain heavy boned dogs. Also, you may want to switch to a cheaper puppy food, as some of the high end ones have too much protein. These are things I have found with dogs prone to "knuckling over".


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## lawrence_tbs (Dec 18, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> yeah, he's hurting alot. I wish him a speedy recovery!


so you mean this deformity is just temporary? In what way i can fix its leg? food? exercise? or an operation?


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## lawrence_tbs (Dec 18, 2009)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> Hi,
> Make sure the pup is getting plenty of sunlight. If you are supplementing with red meat, stop, as it can mess up the phosphorous ratio on certain heavy boned dogs. Also, you may want to switch to a cheaper puppy food, as some of the high end ones have too much protein. These are things I have found with dogs prone to "knuckling over".


I'm confused right now on what you said about the dogfood, because some other suggest that high protein puppy/dogfood is best for a growing puppy.. which is true?


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I recommend that you give the puppy back to the breeder. The pup should go see an orthopedic specialist to rule out any major problems. That will cost you somewhere around three hundred plus the regular vet visit to get the referral. 
I know people dont like to hear that but I just want to keep it real with you. The specialist might tell you its ok,and to adjust food or he might tell you it needs surgery. Either way you should find out whats up. I am old school s I figure it is better to find out sooner than later if the dog will or wont need surgery, or be put down. I would not opt fr Sx but that is just me.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I seen some great advice and leaves nothing else to say; except.. Bad breeding was given attention in a recent post about puppy mills ROFAL, that was great! High protien always worked best for my crew. Opinions Vary


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

If you have a thicker build dog such as amstaff or bully I would be very careful of how much protein it is getting. You dont want the pupy to grow too quick and too heavy.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

lawrence_tbs said:


> so you mean this deformity is just temporary? In what way i can fix its leg? food? exercise? or an operation?


Read the link that I posted about Knuckling, aka Hand over hock. This is a nutrition problem which can be corrected if you start now, and not wait. Your dog should be switched to a lower protien food... don't push the puppy to exercise right now because of his joints nor incourage him to not walk, but rather leave him free to move the way he wants to...



lawrence_tbs said:


> I'm confused right now on what you said about the dogfood, because some other suggest that high protein puppy/dogfood is best for a growing puppy.. which is true?


High protien isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Alot of the Bully breeders push high protien foods to new pup owners so that they have that extra unneeded fat.... In reality it incurages the pups bones and joints to grow at a much more rapid rate causing deformities just like you're dealing with now. I'm glad you came here to find out what it is. Now that you know it is treatable/fixable do it.

as far as give the quote about giving the dog back to the breeder... Not because this issue is MY fault as a breeder, but I would much rather make sure something that I produced gets the medical attention that it needs. Leaving this condition untreated is animal neglect.

Knuckling is something that dogs are prone to, not something that is genetic from my research.

If I was in your shoes, depending on my relationship with the breeder... I'd show him the dog, and keep him posted on how our progress is going as far as correcting this issue. This is not the breeders fault.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Breeding is not 1+1=2 there are unseen variables that can arise.
Just because a condition pups up doesn't make the breeder bad....however if I bought a show/breeding quality dog and it had this problem I wouldn't want it.
As a breeder I would take it back and see if the problem needs surgical
intervention. None of us has seen the dog upfront so we can not arbitrarily decide it is a dietary issue.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

SampsonsDad did you not read the link on this problem??? This is a nutritional problem. Show dog or not, it is the owners fault, not the breeder. I agree, as a breeder I would take it back to fix the dog myself.

Knuckling over is caused by the following: 
1) a combination of two different types or brands of dog foods - feeding (50/50) 
2) the brand or type of food has been changed several times (3-4) times 
3) the addition of vitamins/minerals to a diet
4) human foods in amounts enough to disrupt the calcium/phosphorus balance 
5) too many calories vs the amount of free exercise they get on a daily bases
6) using a food that has minerals that are not very available to the body - crude forms
7) diets lacking vital microminerals or trace minerals
8) feeding too much of a good food
9) any or all of the above. 
In order to solve the problem, I must get a history of the feeding schedule used on a puppy in order to pinpoint the exact problem. I know I can only fix it by another food change to Eagle Natural Pack or Eagle Holistic or Super Premium Large/Giant Breed formula.* *
I can't get this problem corrected on other foods. These dogs grow so fast, even a slight adjustment in foods, supplements or amounts can throw their system into a tizzy. This is a problem of rate of growth being out of sync between the bones, muscles, ligament and tendons of the shoulder and wrist/carpal area.​


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

With all due respect to the author....I aint buying it.
In 20 years the only dogs I have ever seen with that problem have been dogs bred for the low short legs.
ie: bulldogs, corgi, dachshunds, and very bully neo's

Diet can exacerbate the problem but a defect caused the issue to begin with.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Sampsons Dad said:


> With all due respect to the author....I aint buying it.
> In 20 years the only dogs I have ever seen with that problem have been dogs bred for the low short legs.
> ie: bulldogs, corgi, dachshunds, and very bully neo's
> 
> Diet can exacerbate the problem but a defect caused the issue to begin with.


I understand and respect that you don't believe everything that you read...even though the author is refering to Great Danes... there are other sites which I pulled information from while my pup started showing the first signs of a shaking wrist. If a diet can exacerbate the problem why can't it be corrected with a diet? There are no long term effects from changing a dog to the propper diet. My dogs do not have knuckling ancestors... I firmly believe it was from improper diet.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I think you are missing my point.
My point is that the dog needs to see an orthopedic Dr 
to determine if the dog requires surgery. Most people I 
know do not want to pay $300-400 on diagnostics only 
to be told the dog needs a $2000-$3000 surgery and 
they end up PTS'ing the pup. In the end the breeder 
should deal with this not the person looking for a pet.


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## Crash pups person (Nov 3, 2009)

Dude seriously, follow Indigo's advice!

When I found Crash he was malnourished and after a few days of feeding show signs of knuckling over. I followed the GD Ladys link and I added my own ideas to the jist of it.

I used the level 5000 supplements but rather than Eagle Pack like the link advises I used Taste Of The Wild. I started him on the High Prairie but I felt that it was the cause, to much weight gain and protein for a malnourished pup. I switched that to the Pacific Stream and wrapped his legs in vet wrap like advised in that link. I kept activity low and I kept him off of hard surfaces. My conclusion was he was just not fit enough to gain as much weight as he did. I also caught it rather quick before it got out of hand. In teh morning after waking up his legs did not knuckle over but after a hour or so of being on them they did and when he would sit he would tremble.

At this point your pup needs to slow down on weight gain and strengthen up his bones and muscle.

Within two weeks Crash was in great shape and is now a perfectly fit pup!

The breeder should deal with this but chances are he wont want to and all a Orthopedic specialist will do is the same the GD Lady advises. I doubt the dog would need surgery and from the looks of the pic he looks kinda heavy for such slender/trim legs.

I say the mother did not get enough supplements her self while pregnant and nursing.


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

*knuckling*

so then for my puppy Freebie a 31% protein (from what I am reading) is too much if she has hints of knuckling now? I supose so. Also what about my adult babies? If they don't have it, then don't chnage anything? But if one of mine does then, should I drop back in his protein amounts as they are all facing a less active winter season? Thanks Indigo.


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## Crash pups person (Nov 3, 2009)

bluefamily said:


> so then for my puppy Freebie a 31% protein (from what I am reading) is too much if she has hints of knuckling now? I supose so. Also what about my adult babies? If they don't have it, then don't chnage anything? But if one of mine does then, should I drop back in his protein amounts as they are all facing a less active winter season? Thanks Indigo.


Anyone saying high protein works in pups is a dang lunatic! A lucky one at that!

Your adults are fine and its not just the proteins but other nutrients found in high protein diets that are bad and help the growing process excel to fast! You can read the back of some of the dog food bags and they will tell you not to do it. For example Innovas Large Breed Adult ( not that we should use large breed foods ) has more proteins than LB Puppy and on the back of the bag it tells you not to use the Adult till at least 2 years of age for that reason!


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

bluefamily said:


> so then for my puppy Freebie a 31% protein (from what I am reading) is too much if she has hints of knuckling now? I supose so. Also what about my adult babies? If they don't have it, then don't chnage anything? But if one of mine does then, should I drop back in his protein amounts as they are all facing a less active winter season? Thanks Indigo.


Yeah, i would bring Freebie down quite a bit actually. This is generally an issue associated with puppies and shows durring the growing period. I wouldn't worry about your adult dogs so much.

We all need to remember we have medium sized dogs, not large.


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

ok thanks all


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

Crash pups person said:


> Anyone saying high protein works in pups is a dang lunatic! A lucky one at that!
> 
> Your adults are fine and its not just the proteins but other nutrients found in high protein diets that are bad and help the growing process excel to fast! You can read the back of some of the dog food bags and they will tell you not to do it. For example Innovas Large Breed Adult ( not that we should use large breed foods ) has more proteins than LB Puppy and on the back of the bag it tells you not to use the Adult till at least 2 years of age for that reason!


Pardon my lack of clarity thinking you all could read my mind over the internet. I am feeding currently my girl pup Diamond brand puppy food. I was originally unclear. No need for the multiple exclamation points. We all run into the high bank of the learning curve sometimes. Chill out. Its all good.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

bluefamily said:


> Pardon my lack of clarity thinking you all could read my mind over the internet. I am feeding currently my girl pup Diamond brand puppy food. I was originally unclear. No need for the multiple exclamation points. We all run into the high bank of the learning curve sometimes. Chill out. Its all good.


If you can afford it, even just for little Freebie, and not the rest of the dogs...I'd check into DVP you'll have to feed less too...which means less poo!


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## Crash pups person (Nov 3, 2009)

bluefamily said:


> Pardon my lack of clarity thinking you all could read my mind over the internet. I am feeding currently my girl pup Diamond brand puppy food. I was originally unclear. No need for the multiple exclamation points. We all run into the high bank of the learning curve sometimes. *Chill out. Its all good.*


Take your own words. I really wasnt directing *ALL *that towards you in that sense.

However I wanted to answer your question so I quoted your post as well.

Indigo is right DVP's natural Balance is a great food. I recommend Taste Of The Wild as well which is made by Diamond the brand you so choose at the moment. Both are 100% balanced diets recommended for all life stages.

And one other thing, Dimaonds base line up of foods that you are using is not a bad food for the cost at all. I wont offend you by leaving a exclamation point that time


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

Thanks, I know I still have so much to learn and I appreciate everyone's patience.
Where do you get the DVP (Diamond ???-I guess?)Natural Balance? As far as I know iI have never seen that brand around here...are there any equivalents, in the event I can't find it around here? I guess the reall question is what again would be the protein amount to look for?


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## Crash pups person (Nov 3, 2009)

Where do you live? Give me a zip and I can find some for you.

As far as protein I would stay just below 30% but remember some brands say no less and some say no more meaning some brands dont have as digestible of a protein source as others so you may or may not be getting that whole amount.


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## Hollywood06 (Dec 5, 2009)

this answered alot of my questions before i had to ask. i was lookin at the diamond food with 32% protein. so ill have to find something else for my pup. and ive read to make sure that the dog food didnt have any soy in it. the food that i was looking at had no corn and no soy. the main ing was meat


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

This is interesting to me because I have many friends that feed a strictly raw diet to all of their dogs. None of the dogs seem to have problems with the amount of protein. I wonder how that factors in with all of this. I was thinking maybe because the prepared foods are more nutrient dense ....but I am just rambling.


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## Crash pups person (Nov 3, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> This is interesting to me because I have many friends that feed a strictly raw diet to all of their dogs. None of the dogs seem to have problems with the amount of protein. I wonder how that factors in with all of this. I was thinking maybe because the prepared foods are more nutrient dense ....but I am just rambling.


There are more protein producing ingredients than just the whole meats in kibble.

Also consider the protein source in the raw diets they choose. Protein is commonly measured in grams where in kibble its measured by percentage so unless you do some heavy calculating its tough to decide.

That is just my guess cause I wondered also but yet to get that deep down into the studies. I do know there is way more studies with negative results and proof their of than there is positive studies. In fact I have yet to see a positive side of high protein in pups prove it works other than hearsay.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Sampsons Dad said:


> This is interesting to me because I have many friends that feed a strictly raw diet to all of their dogs. None of the dogs seem to have problems with the amount of protein. I wonder how that factors in with all of this. I was thinking maybe because the prepared foods are more nutrient dense ....but I am just rambling.


You're right it is a preparation difference. I feed raw to the adult dogs. It's a protien to water ratio... I'll find the article if you wish.


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## lawrence_tbs (Dec 18, 2009)

recently I just returned the pup to the owner..
the breeder said a lot of conditions about returning the pup, 1st he said to just observed the pup for 2-3months and see if its condition would be the same but i disagree as i have to waste a lot of money for 2-3mos without knowing if it would be successful to fix the pups leg...2nd condition, the breeder said to me to give him atleast 2-3weeks to get back the money as he spend the already the amount that i paid to him... 3rd, to find a new puppy as an exchange on my pup....
But I also give him a condition, 1st is that I will not return the pup to him and he'll just give me half the price that i pay so that i can use the money for the vet bills..2nd, I will return the pup with with a 100% refund of the amount i paid and giving him 1-2weeks to give me the money...
And after 2days, at last he decided to get the pup and refund me 100% the amount i paid... The breeder really apologized on what happened, he said that he went to the vet and the Dr. said if it was an inborn deformity it will have no chance to be fixed or if it was not then try to have the pup a good exercise & good diet. The Dr. also said it's either the dog will undergo on an operation/surgery or it will be euthanize so that it will not spread its genes.


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## lawrence_tbs (Dec 18, 2009)

@ALL
Good day!! 

thank you guys for answering my question, as an owner i've already learned my mistakes regarding feeding... I really learned a lot from you, thank you so much!!


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

lawrence_tbs said:


> recently I just returned the pup to the owner..
> the breeder said a lot of conditions about returning the pup, 1st he said to just observed the pup for 2-3months and see if its condition would be the same but i disagree as i have to waste a lot of money for 2-3mos without knowing if it would be successful to fix the pups leg...2nd condition, the breeder said to me to give him atleast 2-3weeks to get back the money as he spend the already the amount that i paid to him... 3rd, to find a new puppy as an exchange on my pup....
> But I also give him a condition, 1st is that I will not return the pup to him and he'll just give me half the price that i pay so that i can use the money for the vet bills..2nd, I will return the pup with with a 100% refund of the amount i paid and giving him 1-2weeks to give me the money...
> And after 2days, at last he decided to get the pup and refund me 100% the amount i paid... The breeder really apologized on what happened, he said that he went to the vet and the Dr. said if it was an inborn deformity it will have no chance to be fixed or if it was not then try to have the pup a good exercise & good diet. The Dr. also said it's either the dog will undergo on an operation/surgery or it will be euthanize so that it will not spread its genes.


I guess he didn't take it to a nutritionalist to get a second opinion... poor dog. I'm glad you got your money back though.


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## Crash pups person (Nov 3, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> I guess he didn't take it to a nutritionalist to get a second opinion... poor dog. I'm glad you got your money back though.


+1k!, that pup *DOES* have a chance at a normal life and the resources available on the internet as well as the link Indigo provided proves it.

One look at the parents and other offspring will tell you if its in the gene pool. You say they looked fine so,.......

Your average veterinarian knows nothing about nutrition and if it cant be fixed with medicines or surgery its killed.

Sorry, euthanized


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