# whats in a bully?



## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

"We blended different breeds together to obtain certain desired traits. *The American pit bull terrier was one of the breeds whose lineage is in the background of this breed, but it is by no means the only breed behind it*.

Even the part of the lineage that is American pit bull terrier stems from United Kennel Club-registered conformation show dogs! There is also an American Kennel Club-registered show breed in the lineage of this breed called the American Staffordshire terrier. Some breeders even included some bulldog lineage into their breeding. This breed has been established for over 10 years now."

ok so the bolded section had me wondering because its kind of an ambiguous statement given they used apbt and am staff but he doesnt say its the only 2 in this article, but previously he's said that they only used am staffs and apbts. could he have possibly used sbt? which would have brought shorter slightly wider pups? to me it seems like an sbtxapbt or sbtxam staff cross would be more likely to produce shorter bullier dogs than an apbtxam staff cross would.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

It started with apbt and amstaff.Later down the road SOME breeders crossed other breeds into their breeding program.You can guess all day long about what's in there,but he states that only apbt and amstaff were used


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

This is a classic debate which in the end will vary (to some degree) on each breeding program. Some say firm that only APBT x AmStaff was the only breeds mixed, others say that was the foundation but others were used, so on so on. For me, if you look at the broad picture of Bullies i will never believe that just those two breeds were used when you look at the vast differences and extremes from pocket to classic to xl. I've seen many AmBullies look almost identical to English Bulldogs minus some facial features, many of those very dogs have many of the health problems as EB's do. Coincidence? I don't think so.

There are also more BYB's than respectable ones when you talk about the Bullies, more so than any other breed so it seems anyway. You could only guess as to whats in those. 

I think it would be safe to say that the Classic Bullies are mostly (if not all) made up of APBT x AmStaff, the rest, who knows. I've seen some Bullies look like mastiff mixes, EB mixes, genetic disasters and who knows whats in them, etc etc. 

All of this is exactly why i don't really keep up as much as many others do with this breed. Aside from like of drives i look for, theres so much scattered within the breed that it almost seems like a joke. (Of course, there are many out there breeding with standards in mind and i can respect owners that are knowledgeable, of course.)

Thats just my thoughts though and by no means am i putting down anyones dogs.


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## FrostFell (Jun 21, 2011)

Regardless of what Dave says, if you look at all the founding dogs of the breed, they are AST


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

FrostFell said:


> Regardless of what Dave says, if you look at all the founding dogs of the breed, they are AST


Well we all know that looks can be decieving.So therefore I will just continue to go off of what he says.If I went off of looks alone then there would be a never ending list of things that COULD be mixed or not mixed in


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

What isn't in it is the question ? Lol just like all the modern breeds that started out by crosses in the past it is the same with the Bully. I don't even think anyone knows the exact cross that created the apbt. Some say there was never any crossing and it is the old bull baiting animal, others say bull baiters were crossed to hunting terriers. I think we will never know what's in the Bully. It is so easy to hang papers and I don't think anyone will come out and admit what they have done. As long as their dogs sell and they wow the crowds that's all that matters to them. I have seen a cross done on purpose by a Bully breeder between a 100% American Bully to a 100% old English bulldog and the pups came Out looking like lighter bullmastiffs. I have seen English bulldog x apbt pups and some look bulldogish and others look very close to apbt. I think whatever they used it took more than just a single cross to get the look they wanted. A lot of these hobby breeders will cross apbt to mastiff and right away the first generation looks lanky and tall. I only mention this because mastiff was somehow crossed into these dogs as well but then again obtaining the structural traits is not as easy as it sounds.


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## dsgdlover (Feb 21, 2011)

Off looks one would think a french bull was used to get pockets, mastiff to get XL or i think its XXL now JMO


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

why would you disregard what the originator of the breed says other than double talking generally if your double talking or back peddling your doing something shady. i feel he's back peddling but thats jmo. as dixie said looks can be deceiving. im on the same page as km and david.

its hard to believe that you can get the wideness of the am bullies from such a skinny breed with out some outside help. same goes for the pockets. classic looks like the only classification that could stand a chance at being astxapbt but to me thats a stretch. its all speculation.

for the record im not trying to ruffle any ones feather in this post i just want to see peoples opinions. we cant definitively prove what they are or arent i know this.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Hold on people. I think when we start talking about bullies like they're all the same and all bully breeders like they've all used the same formula, that's where the trouble starts.

YES there are breeders who have clearly mixed in other breeds. There are also breeders who have dogs that look pretty much like amstaffs or heavily built apbts. You just have to poke around in the bully section for a bit to find examples of both. They're not all the same so generalising is a bad idea.

Edit: When I say "other breeds" I'm referring to something other than APBT and Amstaff.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> What isn't in it is the question ? Lol just like all the modern breeds that started out by crosses in the past it is the same with the Bully. *I don't even think anyone knows the exact cross that created the apbt. Some say there was never any crossing and it is the old bull baiting animal, others say bull baiters were crossed to hunting terriers. I think we will never know what's in the Bully.* It is so easy to hang papers and I don't think anyone will come out and admit what they have done. As long as their dogs sell and they wow the crowds that's all that matters to them. I have seen a cross done on purpose by a Bully breeder between a 100% American Bully to a 100% old English bulldog and the pups came Out looking like lighter bullmastiffs. I have seen English bulldog x apbt pups and some look bulldogish and others look very close to apbt. I think whatever they used it took more than just a single cross to get the look they wanted. A lot of these hobby breeders will cross apbt to mastiff and right away the first generation looks lanky and tall. I only mention this because mastiff was somehow crossed into these dogs as well but then again obtaining the structural traits is not as easy as it sounds.


And that is an excellent point by the way.:goodpost:


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

aus_staffy said:


> Hold on people. I think when we start talking about bullies like they're all the same and all bully breeders like they've all used the same formula, that's where the trouble starts.
> 
> YES there are breeders who have clearly mixed in other breeds. There are also breeders who have dogs that look pretty much like amstaffs or heavily built apbts. You just have to poke around in the bully section for a bit to find examples of both. They're not all the same so generalising is a bad idea.
> 
> Edit: When I say "other breeds" I'm referring to something other than APBT and Amstaff.


from your experience what class did the bullys that looked like built up apbts fall under? classic correct? for me classic is some what be some what believable but still a bit of a stretch.

personally what percentage do you think of pockets standards xls and extremes come from only apbt and ast stock?


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Classic is mostly what I was referring to, yes. The other classes are mainly populated with what I'd class as dogs mixed with "other breeds". Then again, there are freaks with bull breeds so you can't completely discount all of them. Many people don't believe me when I tell them I own an 18.5 inch 60lb SBT...


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Dave Wilson used APBT x Am Staff to create the American Bully. I believe that he did not use any other breeds; however, he gave several people his dogs and what those people did with them, if anything, was out of his control. As for Gottyline, well, Richard Barajas said he would breed Gotty to anything for $1000, pit bull or not. If you look at the Gotty Freaks they are very similar to American Bulldogs in structure such as length of leg, cathedral chest, bowed legs etc. Go to the Fastlane American Bulldogs website, who is friends with Barajas, and take a look for yourself. The ethics of some people is disheartening but it is what it is and all one can do is strive to do better than those before us. Not everybody's ethics are whack though. There are still a few good Bully breeders out there. Bottom line though, if you weren't in that yard then no one will ever know for sure and until I have proof then it is what it is.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

True that Lauren. Who knows what happened to the dogs that were out of his hands. Feature wise American Bulldogs and American Bullies are very similar, I always thought some of those breeders cheated with Bulldogs to get bigger Bullies.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Dave Wilson used APBT x Am Staff to create the American Bully. I believe that he did not use any other breeds; however, he gave several people his dogs and what those people did with them, if anything, was out of his control. As for Gottyline, well, Richard Barajas said he would breed Gotty to anything for $1000, pit bull or not. If you look at the Gotty Freaks they are very similar to American Bulldogs in structure such as length of leg, cathedral chest, bowed legs etc. Go to the Fastlane American Bulldogs website, who is friends with Barajas, and take a look for yourself. The ethics of some people is disheartening but it is what it is and all one can do is strive to do better than those before us. Not everybody's ethics are whack though. There are still a few good Bully breeders out there. Bottom line though, if you weren't in that yard then no one will ever know for sure and until I have proof then it is what it is.


:goodpost: I agree.With the very first dogs you can tell that it was probably so that he only used apbt and amstaffs.It's later down the line when these dogs started looking different or like something else was mixed in.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I will respectfully disagree a real american bulldog is far from beig easty weasty or having a wreck front. there is bad apples in every breed, I can find you pictures of gamebred apbt with bowed elbows and horse shoe chests. Perhaps a poor specimen was used if trying to add size but I have a ton of respect for real am bulls and the ones I see are very clean. 

A lot of ignorant people will keep breeding a pup with bowed elbows or wife chest simply because they think it looks cool. Look at police dogs, apbts, greyhounds, hunting dogs none of them have these deformities. Can they throw you that in a liter? Off course, no dog is perfect and no dogs have perfect genes. American Bulldogs have a sweet spot in my heart because of my brothers dog and I have to speak for them lol


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Here is an example of how clean and gorgeous American Bulldogs can be


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

i looked at fast lane american bulldogs the black dog looks alot like some of the bullies ive seen.


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## FrostFell (Jun 21, 2011)

Why is it any time you get BYB idiots breeding fault-ridden dogs, its automatically blamed that something else was mixed in. Who was it, Pat Hastings?, who said "as soon as you stop selecting for something, you lose it". These idiot breeders WANTED freaky elbows and wtf? conformation, and they got it. Selective breeding can work fast, especially when you mate two deformed purebred dogs together

The presence of faults and deformities is not, in and of itself, proof positive of breed mixing.

How many gamebred pit bulls do you know that look like bandogges, Kangals (rofl), Boxers (tatonkas ice man), large patterdales, or just flat out trainwrecks?

Do you cry wolf on those too?

I am certainly NOT denying, in any way shape or form, that breed mixing has gone on. I am denying that that whistle needs to be pulled on every dog showing faults or deformities. Heck, even UKC and ADBA lines throw cinnabun and corkscrew tails, this is nothing new to the APBT or AST, its not proof positive that Bulldog was mixed in


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

FrostFell said:


> Why is it any time you get BYB idiots breeding fault-ridden dogs, its automatically blamed that something else was mixed in. Who was it, Pat Hastings?, who said "as soon as you stop selecting for something, you lose it". These idiot breeders WANTED freaky elbows and wtf? conformation, and they got it. Selective breeding can work fast, especially when you mate two deformed purebred dogs together
> 
> The presence of faults and deformities is not, in and of itself, proof positive of breed mixing.
> 
> ...


gamebred dogs are different they're bred for gameness not looks no one really cares what they look like as long as they dont quit... hence game bred i dont think your comparison isnt that great as your comparing a dog bred for looks and conformity to a dog bred for "action" to say the least.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> i looked at fast lane american bulldogs the black dog looks alot like some of the bullies ive seen.


What about the dog I posted ? That's a real utility built bulldog. I can show you 100's of byb american bulldogs that look like poop but that doesn't mean that's the breed is in essence. If one was to cross an apbt to the American bulldog above they wouldnt get anything near an American bully.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> gamebred dogs are different they're bred for gameness not looks no one really cares what they look like as long as they dont quit... hence game bred i dont think your comparison isnt that great as your comparing a dog bred for looks and conformity to a dog bred for "action" to say the least.


The point is that every breed has deformed specimens even the apbt which is pound for pound the most athletic breed on the planet. Every liter and every pup has a chance to come out with exaggerated features. The ridgebacks give birth to dogs without ridgebacks once in a while and they are culled and cannot be shown, however, that doesn't mean they don't pop up. Someone can breed ridgeless dogs and call it a new breed and that didn't mean they had to outcrossing to another breed to get rid of the feature.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

lol i find those fast lane dogs ugly but that american you posted is gorgeous lol i dont think i've ever seen a dog with a head like that in am bullys.


im not just talking about freaky elbows though we're in general im talking about height and width and looks. not bone structure i understand that deformities and "special" genes can run in any form whether it be humans or dogs. but if some body wants to go with the statement that bullys in the xl standard extreme pocket classes are true apbts then why would you breed dogs for their deformities? its not good practice and its not good for the health of the dogs and for their possible litters. 

frostfell said 

"Why is it any time you get BYB idiots breeding fault-ridden dogs, its automatically blamed that something else was mixed in. Who was it, Pat Hastings?, who said "as soon as you stop selecting for something, you lose it". These idiot breeders WANTED freaky elbows and wtf? conformation, and they got it. Selective breeding can work fast, especially when you mate two deformed purebred dogs together"

then bullys would have been bred for faults from asts and apbts and who breeds for faults better than bybs? but i dont think you can expect instant results from 1 breeding yes you might have 1 dog born in the first generation that has a "fault" in their bone structure. so you take that dog save it, then sell the normal you do the same with another littler. you get the same results. then you breed your second generation dogs with many faults. you might get 2 or 3 this time and repeat the breeding process till you have bred out any non deformed genes in your animals. which at that point your animal doesnt have any more "faults" because it is the starting of its own breed

not to say that they're are not respectable breeders out there im just going off of what you said.

lets not used the word deformed or any variation any more i find it a bit harsh lets stick to faults.


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