# Thinning fur question



## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

Hi guys!! I'm new but have had a burning question I'm hoping someone here can talk to me about.

I adopted my pup last year and took him off Science Diet. We've tried multiple different types of kibble until I finally gave up and put him on the raw diet. (story later on for those that are against the raw diet)

Now, one of the things that was worrying me was the thinning of his back fur. From his head down to the base of his tail. Granted it did get a little worse when I tried to give him raw chicken, but the hot spots got a little better when I took him off that. I then started giving him flea and tick pills instead of drops, and that started to work a little more. But he's still got a bald spot on his head and on the base of his tail. My back-up vet said that Blue Nosed bullies are known to have this issue....but I never heard of this. every time I go to pet his head and feel the roughness of his head I feel like I've let him down. 

Anyone out there have any other suggestions or comments or going through the same thing??


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

How long have you been feeding raw? What program are you following for this raw diet? Or are you buying premade stuff?


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

i'd say he's been on the raw diet for roughly 8 months? We follow the barf diet now. But before I was giving him some smoothie and meat. Usually he gets pork, or I'll boil chicken for breakfast and then he gets pork ribs for dinner. he loves chicken so once in a while he gets a raw drum stick or two i just started giving him that again last month.


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

Are you feeding any organs at all? That doesn't sound balanced. And why boil it, that kind of defeats the purpose of raw? 

He may have some kind of nutritional deficiency, considering what he's eating. I highly suggest you put him back onto a quality kibble unless you do more research on raw and how to properly feed it.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

he gets some liver too. however, i was worried about this as well so we found daily vitamins to crush up and give him with the meat along with fish oil 2x a day. 

The reason why we switched him to raw from kibble was because he wasn't eating all his food, and he kept throwing up and his poop was always runny. We tried about 4 different kibble types, and his symptoms didn't get any better. 

what kibble brand do you suggest? i don't mind trying it again if it helps him.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

Are you giving fish oil in pill form?

Cooking chicken changes it on a molecular level. My blue dog is allergic to processed chicken, but not raw. 

My recommendation would be to seriously research raw diets. It takes a lot more then throwing some meat into a bowl and adding liver every now and then.

I feed prey model raw. The only additives are fish oil from a pump and organic coconut oil. All else is raw meat, bone, and organs. 8:1:1 ratios. I didn't go BARF or premade because my boy is allergic to many of the additional veg and fruits they add. 

preymodelraw.com is where I got started. 

Hair loss and dull coat is a common side effect during transition. My best guess would be that you aren't feeding a proper ratio and may be causing a deficiency.


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

Yeah, I would definitely switch to kibble. I know you mean well, but if you aren't feeding raw properly, which it sounds like you aren't, you can do some real damage. 

Acana & Orijen are about as good as it gets for kibble. If they're within your budget, I say go for it. At least in the meantime, if you want to feed raw just do some more research and try again when you're ready.  

I would also consider a potential food allergy. Try one of Acana's limited ingredient kibbles and see how that goes. If the hair loss doesn't clear up, I'd suggest getting a skin scraping done to check for external parasites, then an allergy test if that's negative.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

thanks for the website. yeah, i don't doubt that i'm doing something wrong but the vets keep saying that giving raw foods arent good for you or your pet. but he just won't eat kibble. 

i won't doubt that it's my fault. the raw seems like it's doing way better for him then the kibble we bought previously. my puppy is staying on kibble because i know her past medical history, his, not so much. they just found him roaming the streets....and he has a big underbite, so the pound told us they had to remove his 2 top front teeth because his gums always bled,and they were unsure of any other medical issues.

but since he can't tell me if something is wrong, i thought i'd bring it to the forums. right when we took him home from the pound he started sheding a lot. i had to take tweezers and tape to my seats to get his fur out. 

his health means more to me than my health does and i hate when i feel like a horrible human  thank you guys for not judging me though and seeing that i'm just trying to figure this all out for him. suggestions and comments are always welcome. as long as i don't get criticized for putting him on the raw diet.


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

You'll find that most everyone here is pro raw. Most dogs do amazingly well on it if fed right, so no one will criticize you for that. You just have to make sure you're balancing it or you end up with nutritional deficiencies which can be very harmful to the dog.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

No raw judging here. Ecko's been on it for almost 4 years now. I know exactly how you feel when kibble lets you down. Vet's don't really get very much education in nutrition. So some of them are anti raw because they don't understand it. I have 2 holistic vets in my area and they've seen the transformation and are so impressed that they sometimes call and ask me questions about raw to pass the info to patients that may benefit from it. 
Some dogs are just allergic. Ecko and I have conquered his food allergies. But he does still deal with environmental ones about twice per year. 

I think with good research and a solid foundation you can get your dog transitioned properly and looking fantastic in no time. 

Feel free to PM me, or ask everyone else here. I'm not sure who all is still on the forum feeds raw.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

thanks for the great support you two!! i wish i had a picture of the bald spots so you guys could see. his back seems to be growing back very very nicely though. but his head and base of tail don't seem to want to grow back.

but he likes to use his little sister as a hat sometimes, i'm guessing he feels ashamed of the balding


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

off topic question for you,

how do you guys feel about fixing puppies? lyla my mix pup is about 6 and i'm wanting to get her fixed before she starts going into heat, but i read somewhere about health risks for young pups?


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

oh, he gets the liquid pills. we just squeeze the fish oil on his food


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

LOL! That pic is AWESOME!

Squeezing out the pills is good. I have a friend who's dog was allergic to the casing on the pills. That's why I buy the pump.

As far a spay/neuter. I don't have and wouldn't have a female, because I can't stand dogs in heat. But if I had a male from a puppy. I wouldn't neuter at all. It's my understanding that early altering can cause issues in growth because of the decrease in hormones. So if you can keep her away from boys and don't mind the mess, keep her intact until she's done growing. Usually around the 2 or 3 year mark. That is what I would do. If I had to have a female.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

the pump?? there's a pump? geez, that sounds much easier. i can't tell you how many times i've squirted myself in the eye with the fish oil :T

i've heard the same thing, but i've also been told that the earlier the better to lower risks of health issues, so i'm torn.


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## Blossom01 (Nov 8, 2014)

OpiesHooman said:


> his back seems to be growing back very very nicely though. but his head and base of tail don't seem to want to grow back.


How old is he?
See if you can get pics...


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

OpiesHooman said:


> the pump?? there's a pump? geez, that sounds much easier. i can't tell you how many times i've squirted myself in the eye with the fish oil :T
> 
> i've heard the same thing, but i've also been told that the earlier the better to lower risks of health issues, so i'm torn.


The pump is sold in pet stores. It's a bit pricier, but worth not getting fish eyed. LOL!

I believe society says lower health risks, but it's something you should research on your own to determine where you find the most risk.


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

With females there tends to be more benefit to spay than males being neutered, such as eliminating chances of pyometra or uterus cancer. There are still risks when doing so young, however. Here's a good link to consider. http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

so for my puppy, i have to get her fixed soon. since she broke her toe her fur has been thinning out...i took her to the vet yesterday for a skin scrape and to change her cast and it came back positive for derma...something or other. 

and that vet was like "well we don't want to treat her until she's been fixed." i'm still waiting for them to give me an explanation as to why they want her fixed first. so it looks like my hand may be forced into early spaying anyways.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

OpiesHooman said:


> so for my puppy, i have to get her fixed soon. since she broke her toe her fur has been thinning out...i took her to the vet yesterday for a skin scrape and to change her cast and it came back positive for derma...something or other.
> 
> and that vet was like "well we don't want to treat her until she's been fixed." i'm still waiting for them to give me an explanation as to why they want her fixed first. so it looks like my hand may be forced into early spaying anyways.


Find another vet. 
Treating for Demodex has nothing to do with having a uterus. 
If I were in your position, I would google holistic vets in the area and go see them. They tend to accept raw fed and look for less chemical based resolutions for issues. I'm lucky enough to have 2 in my area. One that specializes in old CRF cats and one that just does what I say in regards to my dog.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

EckoMac said:


> Are you giving fish oil in pill form?
> 
> Cooking chicken changes it on a molecular level. My blue dog is allergic to processed chicken, but not raw.
> 
> ...





EckoMac said:


> The pump is sold in pet stores. It's a bit pricier, but worth not getting fish eyed. LOL!
> 
> I believe society says lower health risks, but it's something you should research on your own to determine where you find the most risk.





BCdogs said:


> With females there tends to be more benefit to spay than males being neutered, such as eliminating chances of pyometra or uterus cancer. There are still risks when doing so young, however. Here's a good link to consider. http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf





EckoMac said:


> Find another vet.
> Treating for Demodex has nothing to do with having a uterus.
> If I were in your position, I would google holistic vets in the area and go see them. They tend to accept raw fed and look for less chemical based resolutions for issues. I'm lucky enough to have 2 in my area. One that specializes in old CRF cats and one that just does what I say in regards to my dog.


lyla isn't on raw, only opie is. but i will look for a holistic vet, i never heard of this or know what it is but there's no harm in trying. as for the spaying before treating....i'm still pissed that they haven't gotten back to me about it. it doesn't make sense to me either, but then again, i don't know medicine so if their explanation is some what understandable then i will feel better. if they don't call me soon, i'm just going to call around to random vets and ask for an explanation. i'm really not happy with my secondary vet right now. =T


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

I remembered it was your boy. I'm not THAT old yet. LOL!
I just know that vets who have a problem with raw tend to blame everything on their diet first. And I don't believe in having separate vets. The only reason I do now is because of the cats CRF. 
I'd be mad too. They should be able to answer your questions in a timely manner. I just don't think there's a viable answer for them to give. Which may be why they haven't answered yet.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

EckoMac said:


> I remembered it was your boy. I'm not THAT old yet. LOL!
> I just know that vets who have a problem with raw tend to blame everything on their diet first. And I don't believe in having separate vets. The only reason I do now is because of the cats CRF.
> I'd be mad too. They should be able to answer your questions in a timely manner. I just don't think there's a viable answer for them to give. Which may be why they haven't answered yet.


bad memory never effects information about people's dogs lol!

so the reason why i have a secondary vet is that when i travel i take lyla with me...atleast until her toe is fully healed. there's no one to watch her 24/7 and make sure she doesn't chew her cast off at home. this broken toe thing is driving me crazy. and i swear i have more of her fur in my car then she has on her head right now


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

OpiesHooman said:


> bad memory never effects information about people's dogs lol!
> 
> so the reason why i have a secondary vet is that when i travel i take lyla with me...atleast until her toe is fully healed. there's no one to watch her 24/7 and make sure she doesn't chew her cast off at home. this broken toe thing is driving me crazy. and i swear i have more of her fur in my car then she has on her head right now


A cone of shame and crate would keep you from having to take her with you. There are so many dif kinds now a days. Ecko uses a kong brand plastic cone of shame. He originally had a cloth one, but it's 90% duct tape now because he kept scratching it to shreds. There is a blow up one that looks more like a life preserver and looks like it might be more comfortable. Anyways. Tons of options. 
Dog hair is so much worse with double coated dogs. Be thankful your girls will vacuum out easily. I fostered a corgi for 4 months. Half of him is still in my car. And that's after I replaced the cover. LOL!


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

she's gotten out of 2 plastic cones!! TWO!! then she tore thru the plastic around her cast, the towel under it and then straight through the cast itself. she's a determined little brat and i can't really blame her, she doesnt understand what's going on. you have a lot of good ideas. i'll look at kong cones if her toe isn't healed next week.

i put the covers back on my seat a few days ago, i had to actually use tape and tweezers to get the fur out of my seats. now, the seat covers are full of her fur too. and when she sleeps next to me, i wake up with fur in my mouth and eyes lol.

i think my next dog will be a wheaten terrier. atleast they wont shed lol


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

OpiesHooman said:


> she's gotten out of 2 plastic cones!! TWO!! then she tore thru the plastic around her cast, the towel under it and then straight through the cast itself. she's a determined little brat and i can't really blame her, she doesnt understand what's going on.
> 
> i put the covers back on my seat a few days ago, i had to actually use tape and tweezers to get the fur out of my seats. now, the seat covers are full of her fur too. and when she sleeps next to me, i wake up with fur in my mouth and eyes lol.
> 
> i think my next dog will be a wheaten terrier. atleast they wont shed lol


Are you attaching the cones to the collar? If not, THAT is the way to go.

Does she really shed that much? Ecko only gets like that twice a year. I mean, I live in FL, so I don't how it is up north with dogs. But if she's shedding that bad even at home, you may want to start supplementing fish oil and coconut oil for her too.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

Blossom01 said:


> How old is he?
> See if you can get pics...


he's about 3-4 years. i'll be home on thursday, i'll take a picture of his head and tail section when i get home.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

EckoMac said:


> Are you attaching the cones to the collar? If not, THAT is the way to go.
> 
> Does she really shed that much? Ecko only gets like that twice a year. I mean, I live in FL, so I don't how it is up north with dogs. But if she's shedding that bad even at home, you may want to start supplementing fish oil and coconut oil for her too.


i attached it to her collar, and she somehow chewed the edge of the cone until it was short enough for her to get to her toe. don't ask me how, i'm still amazed at that.

the second time, i'm not sure if my husband attached it to her collar or not, all i know is that it was chewed up and her cast was ripped clean off.


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## Blossom01 (Nov 8, 2014)

OpiesHooman said:


> so for my puppy, i have to get her fixed soon. since she broke her toe her fur has been thinning out...i took her to the vet yesterday for a skin scrape and to change her cast and it came back positive for derma...something or other.
> 
> and that vet was like "well we don't want to treat her until she's been fixed." i'm still waiting for them to give me an explanation as to why they want her fixed first. so it looks like my hand may be forced into early spaying anyways.


From personal experience, spay/neuter surgery will make skin problems worse. A puppy needs all his hormones -- which affect every process in a growing organism -- to better mount a defense to the skin issues.

Again, from experience, skin problems in a puppy are fairly typical in the breed. They often go through a stage where they will get localized versions of demodex and staph and the best thing to do, in my experience, is just leave it alone and let the pup's immune system learn to mount the defense.
Throwing antibiotics at it will often, in the long run, make problems worse. And if the pup is otherwise normal, the diet doesn't have that much to do with it. A good diet and happy pup plus just growing up is the best thing for many of these skin conditions.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

Blossom01 said:


> From personal experience, spay/neuter surgery will make skin problems worse. A puppy needs all his hormones -- which affect every process in a growing organism -- to better mount a defense to the skin issues.
> 
> Again, from experience, skin problems in a puppy are fairly typical in the breed. They often go through a stage where they will get localized versions of demodex and staph and the best thing to do, in my experience, is just leave it alone and let the pup's immune system learn to mount the defense.
> Throwing antibiotics at it will often, in the long run, make problems worse. And if the pup is otherwise normal, the diet doesn't have that much to do with it. A good diet and happy pup plus just growing up is the best thing for many of these skin conditions.


i've done skin scraping twice on opie. both came back negative. come to think of it, i think his head started balding when i started to get stressed out....maybe he senses that i'm stressed and he lost his fur.

the tail part though, that's been balding since day 1.

jesus, maybe it's me. both my pups are going through something or other


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

It's not just you. In fact, you are researching things and trying to make educated decisions. That's a pretty big deal in my book.
Where on the tail is this patch? Is he chewing it? Or is hair just not there? Have you ever had his anal glands expressed? In some instances when a dog is chewing the base of the tail it's because they need to be expressed. Some dogs have issues doing it themselves and need vet or groomer assistance several times a year.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

it's on the base of his tail, like, on his butt/back part. he doesn't really chew it or scratch it either. infact he hardly does that stuff at all. he just likes to lick his paws....
at 3AM...
very loudly....
everyday...

got his glands expressed once. he doesn't seem to need that done very frequently. 

you are awesome.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

OpiesHooman said:


> it's on the base of his tail, like, on his butt/back part. he doesn't really chew it or scratch it either. infact he hardly does that stuff at all. he just likes to lick his paws....
> at 3AM...
> very loudly....
> everyday...
> ...


Ecko's tater gets squeezed every 3-6 months. I try to go more frequently because his body makes plugs and hearing him scream when they express him while he's plugged up makes me want to hurt people.

Paw licking. Things to help alleviate while you are researching diet.
1. apple cider vinegar with the mother and water 50/50 mixture. Wipe his feet every time he comes in from outside. I hate the smell of ACV so I use mal a ket wipes instead. 
2. I also use Duoxo shampoo once every couple of weeks and really rub it in between his toes and pads. Let him stand for 5-10 minutes and rinse. 
3. Benadryl or 24 hour Zyrtec until you get the diet thing settled and can see for sure if itchy feet are from food and not environment. (food is easier to test for since you can change and adjust it)


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

i thought opie was being a punk doing the licking at odd hours.

i'll look into those remedies. is it something i should bring up to the vet?

are YOU a vet eckomac or all this from previous experience?


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

OpiesHooman said:


> i thought opie was being a punk doing the licking at odd hours.
> 
> i'll look into those remedies. is it something i should bring up to the vet?
> 
> are YOU a vet eckomac or all this from previous experience?


I am not a vet. I've been dealing with allergies for years. It's all from experience. And everything I've offered as advice is pretty much holistic and natural. So won't hurt to try, or interfere with any prognosis/treatment that a vet suggests.

You can ask the vet about it if it makes you feel more comfortable. But given your vets view of raw, he'll likely only offer up whatever prescription diet is sold in his office at that time. Most vets also recommend steroids.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

EckoMac said:


> I am not a vet. I've been dealing with allergies for years. It's all from experience. And everything I've offered as advice is pretty much holistic and natural. So won't hurt to try, or interfere with any prognosis/treatment that a vet suggests.
> 
> You can ask the vet about it if it makes you feel more comfortable. But given your vets view of raw, he'll likely only offer up whatever prescription diet is sold in his office at that time. Most vets also recommend steroids.


either way, you're very helpful thank you.

btw my primary doctor called and i told her my concern about lyla's fur and what the secondary doctor said....and she had no explanation as to why they said that she needs to be fixed first. she obviously wants to see how bad lyla's missing fur is, but from what i explained she personally wouldn't have come to that conclusion. that pretty much ends that relationship. i'm not going back to that damn place again.

AND, that damn secondary doctor...hasn't freaking called me yet.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

OpiesHooman said:


> either way, you're very helpful thank you.
> 
> btw my primary doctor called and i told her my concern about lyla's fur and what the secondary doctor said....and she had no explanation as to why they said that she needs to be fixed first. she obviously wants to see how bad lyla's missing fur is, but from what i explained she personally wouldn't have come to that conclusion. that pretty much ends that relationship. i'm not going back to that damn place again.
> 
> AND, that damn secondary doctor...hasn't freaking called me yet.


It sounded like the doc who said to fix first was just trying to force their own agenda. I'm glad you have another vet to fall back on. Sounds like a bad vet anyway since they can't call you back.

Most of what I learned I learned from friends that I met on GP. So it's good that I can help pass on what I've learned to newer members here.


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

i left a bad review on yelp about them, and they're a VCA hospital so i'm going to ask my vet if there's some general number i can call to complain about the service there. lyla's skin is getting really bad. my primary vet office made time for me to bring lyla in today for a checkup. my seat covers are COVERED in her fur from a 4 hour drive and her skin is getting hella red and more patchy. my poor baby


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## OpiesHooman (Feb 8, 2016)

Blossom01 said:


> How old is he?
> See if you can get pics...


i tried to take a picture of his head, but you can't really make out the bald spot. it actually looks like it's kind of growing back, just not as full.


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