# T.G got some new puppy



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

I just wanted to know what offspring will you get from T.G if you was going to buy one me i like the El ***** x Young Chinarose


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Mr.lee said:


> I just wanted to know what offspring will you get from T.G if you was going to buy one me i like the El ***** x Young Chinarose


Those are some nice looking pups


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Learn English and you might get an answer...


----------



## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" (Aug 7, 2008)

reddoggy said:


> Learn English and you might get an answer...


That's not proper English?


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

Sorry if i did not have proper English......i did not think it was that important....
"me no *English*..."


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm sorry, I was in a smart ass mood earlier...
Hey, what was your question though, I'd like to help.


----------



## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Mr.lee said:


> I just wanted to know what offspring will you get from T.G if you was going to buy one me i like the El ***** x Young Chinarose


I'm sorry, what is the question?


----------



## 0ni (Jul 8, 2008)

they are too cute noses look a little long lol but the one on the right end is so cute


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Oni, what the heck are you talking about?


----------



## 0ni (Jul 8, 2008)

i was joking with him not u. i said the dog was cute what does it have to do with u. it seems like u are still in a smart ass mood keep that directed to the person that u are mad at not anyone else


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Uh, well you're commenting on the nose length, muzzle BTW, like you're some kinda expert. You still have alot of learning to do. And I wasn't being a smartass, I was dead serious. I'm not angry either, I have no reason to be, life is GOOD.


----------



## 0ni (Jul 8, 2008)

man you really need to get your a** off your shoulders and learn to mind your business.the muzzle thing was a JOKE to the dogs OWNER. not any loser that just want to argue.(saying the dogs muzzle was long. cant your comprehend basic english or are you functionally illiterate) oh and your right i'm not an expert when it comes to dogs but who the heck ever said i was.now if the owner said they were offended then i would explain the joke but your nobody running around looking to pick a fight.GROW UP


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

i was trying to say if you was to buy a puppy from tom-garner which one will you buy?
by the way the picture of the puppy are T.G puppy's off El ***** x Young Chinarose


----------



## 0ni (Jul 8, 2008)

i love the one on the far right


----------



## Taz (May 3, 2008)

Ha Ha Ha!!! he as ass on shoulder issues. I will agree


----------



## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

The black pup looks like the outsider. I would totally pick him!!


----------



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I like the black one, too. But, I have a real soft spot for black pitties!!


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I want the all !!!!!!! LOL


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

T.G say they are 1000$ for female and 900$ for male so SadieBlues that be 4000$ for you since you want all lol


----------



## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

WTF what makes those puppies "worth" $1000


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Mr.lee said:


> T.G say they are 1000$ for female and 900$ for male so SadieBlues that be 4000$ for you since you want all lol


Tell him I said good luck with his litter. I have 3 puppies right now all going on 5 months. I am all set but they are def cute


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

WTF what makes those puppies "worth" $1000
"they are off the *china man blood line*"


----------



## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

I am aware and I am not impressed (personally) I don't really care about all that I guess...I just think a kennel with 12 litters on the ground $1000 a pup = puppy mill. I mean I guess he has got a lot of overhead, but it sounds to me like the efforts are being spread to thin. Didn't you say your puppy came with swollen lymph nodes and wormy??? I am just saying if I ever pay $1000 for a puppy it will be for more reasons then just some name attached to it. I am sure once your pup recovers it will be a good dog...but it will still be just that, a dog.
All this is said In My Personal Opinion...and is not meant to discredit anyone or their kennels


----------



## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

*coughs*
*clears throat*


----------



## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

Just because the name is in th epedigree somewhere doesn't mean the pups are chinaman dogs


----------



## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

Tom is a good straight forward man. I have talked to him on occasion myself before when I had Bolio and Tombstone bred dogs. I also feel he has moved away from breeding for the right reasons I believe he more now interested in the quick buck not high quality performance dogs not saying he isn't still producing nice dogs but his dogs IMO aren't of the same quality as the original dogs bred down from Chinaman. Yea they may have some pretty pedigrees but pedigrees don't make the dog the dog makes the pedigree and if they are not as high quality as the earlier dogs then to be honest they haven't accomplished anything being you should breed to better the line not add in more faults. JMHO I am not putting down Tom b/c I respect the man and love heavy Chinaman bred dogs but that is my honest opinion of the newer dogs from his line. 

Good luck with your pup though either way I'm sure you will be a happy owner.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

MSK said:


> Tom is a good straight forward man. I have talked to him on occasion myself before when I had Bolio and Tombstone bred dogs. I also feel he has moved away from breeding for the right reasons I believe he more now interested in the quick buck not high quality performance dogs not saying he isn't still producing nice dogs but his dogs IMO aren't of the same quality as the original dogs bred down from Chinaman. Yea they may have some pretty pedigrees but pedigrees don't make the dog the dog makes the pedigree and if they are not as high quality as the earlier dogs then to be honest they haven't accomplished anything being you should breed to better the line not add in more faults. JMHO I am not putting down Tom b/c I respect the man and love heavy Chinaman bred dogs but that is my honest opinion of the newer dogs from his line.
> 
> Good luck with your pup though either way I'm sure you will be a happy owner.


Well said Amanda :thumbsup:


----------



## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

I'm with you!! AMEN!! The dogs make thier own names


----------



## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

I agree with Syd on the price and the amount of litters on the ground. Sounds like a puppy mill to me.

They are cute pups though


----------



## sarallyn (Aug 17, 2008)

I would love to see some working titles on ANY of those dogs.

true, they have some stunning pedigrees, but it's just paper until it's proven.

and for some untitled dogs, they are damn expensive.


----------



## Bleu Clair (Jun 14, 2008)

I was gonna stay outta this 'cause I don't know the man personally and don't like to speak ill of anyone, but I've heard the talk and have to say that I agree with what's been said by Sydney and MSK, based on what I've heard. 
JMHO


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

I think Tom Garner is a God amongst doggers, if this pup is really coming off his yard kiss the mans butt.... Another member and I were just disgussing the fact that he's been accused of milling, I gotta say that most of the old doggers push multiple litters, I don't know if it's just about the money or if it's really about trying to achieve higher standards. Pat Patrick was accused of many things when his bust went down but I for one believe that he had so many dogs because he was striving to be even greater. And Taz, long time no see. How's Shades doin'?


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I think the fairest statement would be that there have been both good and bad things said about TG. And experiences differ depending on who's dealing with him. Some dislike the number of dogs he produces, but others say its okay because they're good quality. One person complained recently about getting sick puppies on two occasions from TG, while others say their pups have been fine. Is he a God? No. He's just a human, prone to both idolatry and criticism.


----------



## nouseforaname (Aug 18, 2008)

PitBullGirl, Those are Chinaman dogs, Chinaman was Tom Garners dog and the way El ***** is bred makes him a Chinaman dog direct from the source of the bloodline.

Sarallyn, As far as you questioning "working titles" on any of the dogs. The sire is a Champion and a Register of Merit dog, so he not only can work himself but he also is proven as a producer. Hope that's worthy of a stud dog to you

$900 for a dog direct from the Chinaman source is as good as it gets and the dog is a Champion as well as many of his other stud dogs.

research a little before you come to negative conclusions

Champion El ***** ROM

ped #48851 look it up, it won't let me post ped links


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Well Stated Lindsay, ofcourse no man is a God... Guess I should have put that differently. Me, I like what he's done with the breed. There are some things in his history that I do not favor but the man has done great things for the genetics of the APBT. When he and Patrick lined their dogs up they produced the ideal pitbull, box and pet wise. He had a dog that I really didn't like the look of, heavy in Bolio, but that dog became a ROM and threw fire everytime. All I have to say is that if you have a chance to pick up a dog off of Garners yard DO IT. I mean, if you could pick up a pup from Colby farms wouldn't you? I hold TG right up there with James Colby, although they are seriously diverse because of time. I had a chance to pick up a dog straight from Patricks yard and I turned it down for a rescue, I enjoyed my time withthat rescue dog but I really really regret not taking that hour drive To Pat Patricks place. We may never see another dog come straight from him again.


----------



## nouseforaname (Aug 18, 2008)

the Chinaman x Bolio dog you speak was Garners Frisco and the best producer in the history of this breed. Frisco ROM is the top of the ROM list.

and anyone questioning the amount of pups he has at a time probably isnt meant to have dogs of this calibur anyway

*you don't need a Ferrari to drop your kids off at school*


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Yeah, I know the dogs name but thanks for reminding me. Hey, welcome to the forum I think an intro would be nice. Anyone wanting to know more about TGs dogs can easily hop on his site at American Pit Bull Terrier - Tom Garner Kennels All the info on past and present is there and he's got all his peds posted.


----------



## nouseforaname (Aug 18, 2008)

I wasnt trying to remind you, you left it out of your post and i thought it was informative for the people on here that are bashing him that are blind to common ABPT knowledge on the thread. 

Frisco would give them something else to study and perhaps it would give them enough info to hold back negative statements that don't carry any merit


----------



## sarallyn (Aug 17, 2008)

nouseforaname said:


> Sarallyn, As far as you questioning "working titles" on any of the dogs. The sire is a Champion and a Register of Merit dog, so he not only can work himself but he also is proven as a producer. Hope that's worthy of a stud dog to you


I was talking a little more on the lines of _legal_ working titles.
That's always a nice thing nowadays...


----------



## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Anybody have any idea how many bitches Frisco was bred to before he achieved that ROM status?


----------



## shadowgames (Jul 3, 2008)

T.G. has a nice yard but do you really understand what you are possibly purchasing. 

All of these things are meant in positive way! Sincerely.

Have you owned a game bred dog before?

Do you understand what these dogs do around other dogs?
-do you understand a dog bred like this will take a nip or bite at you possibly to get to another dog or animal. Not human aggressive but a true DA dog will do anything to get to another dog. No matter if TG says it or not these dogs have a intended purpose.

Are you willing to kennel all the animals in the home if the said canine is dog aggressive?

Have you ever broken up a dog fight?
-Have you ever broken up a dog fight between two dogs by yourself?

Do you have the necessary time to control the drive of a game dog?

Are you ready to make a commitment to dog aggressive canine for the next 15-20 years? 

If you have kids or plan to have kids, do you understand some game dogs don't like children and possibility that you may have to rehome this dog?

Are you ready for the finances of a 6 ft privacy fence?

Do you plan to kennel or chain the said canine? If kenneled are you ready to purchase a $600-$1500 kennel made from hogwire.

Who will take the dog if you die (god forbid)?

Are you willing to do jail time for just owning a dog bred like this? (they are starting to do this)
Are you game enough to sacrifice all you have worked for if your dog gets loose and kills another animal, are you game enough to give up your whole entire life to protect this dog in court?

This is why these dogs are f up. Because, no offense to you, people like TG who is a excellent man in the dogs by care and breeding but a POS because he will sell to anyone. He is giving you the pick of the dogs in that kennel????? Just doesn't sound like TG but things and the economy are tuff. I am not being a a$$hole but a commitment to a dog bred like that is a full time job. Good luck and I hope you get a good one but there are great amount of conformation correct bulldogs with great pedigrees that might serve your need for a performance bred dog without all the unnecessary dog aggression. The dogs are bred for one thing, it isn't conformation if you catch my drift. No need to answer my question because it is your money but seriousily sit down and think about this 15 year commitment to the dog. I am always here to help if you need it.


----------



## shadowgames (Jul 3, 2008)

buzhunter said:


> Anybody have any idea how many bitches Frisco was bred to before he achieved that ROM status?


Probably like 50000, lets get a good one breed his balls off til we hit ROM, LOL that is what they did. I really like the Chinaman blood but I just can't stomach a Frisco dog, I just think there is so many better dogs from the snooty cross than frisco. Don't get me wrong they are good dogs but I prefer the Mims bred snooty over TG stuff, I really like the Garner's Spike stuff mixed Chinaman (himself, not through frisco) personally. Must be the reason I own one, LOL. Super good dog, a great producer as well. I don't care what anyone says Frisco is in no comparsion to Jeep as a producer.


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

This is all I have to say,

1. I dont care if they are Chinaman dogs, Im not paying $1000.
2. That being said, honestly who cares what they guy charges, you nor I have to pay it.
3. The only way he can charge $1000 is that there are people willing to pay it.
4. Charge what you want to, its up to me, the consumer, if I am willing to pay that price and I am not.
5. If more people would not pay that price, people could not charge that price
6. Basic Economics of supply and demand.


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

you guys say that $900-$1000 is to much..... what did you guys pay for your TOP dog on your yard? doesn't count if you got your top dog from a friend or family member


----------



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Given the drive of his dogs, maybe he posts the high prices to discourage certain people. This is pure speculation.


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Mr.lee said:


> you guys say that $900-$1000 is to much..... what did you guys pay for your TOP dog on your yard? doesn't count if you got your top dog from a friend or family member


My top dog was priced at $700! I told the breeder that she was insane but to call me if she was having issues. She calls me up a couple of days later and tells me to make her an offer on the runt. I offered her the $70 cash I had in my pocket and told her I was not going to the bank on my way. She said okay just as long as you have a family in need of a dog and you keep in contact with me. So the answer is $70 for my top dog. Her ped isn't as tight as most but I like it a little scattered, as long as we're getting good qualities coming off those lines. BTW, she has a little chinaman X2 a ways back and she's mostly Tombstone and Lady in Red... I love Patricks dogs!

Buz, great friggin' question man. I know that Frisco was bred ALOT and not always to top bitches. I think TG may have been playing a bit back then. If I had a chance to talk with Tom I would ask him what possessed him to buy Frisco back. I know that he was sold and then later brought back to Toms yard and shortly after became ROM. What the heck happened??? If I'm not mistaken, Frisco was only bred once before TG bought him back.


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

buzhunter said:


> Anybody have any idea how many bitches Frisco was bred to before he achieved that ROM status?


According to the peds site, "GARNER'S FRISCO ROM HAS 1042 OFFSPRING." How many CH does he have to produce to become ROM?


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Mr.lee said:


> you guys say that $900-$1000 is to much..... what did you guys pay for your TOP dog on your yard? doesn't count if you got your top dog from a friend or family member


I paid $600 for one of my dogs, and got the other two dirt cheap or free. I do consider my breeder a friend, though. He liked what I did with the first dog I got from him, and considered me part of the family after that. With regard to dog prices, I feel they should reflect the amount of work that goes into the parents. When you're paying hundreds of dollars for health tests, thousands of dollars for show expenses, you charge a little more for puppies to recoup your costs. But the breeders I've known do it as a hobby, for love of the breed, not as a means of income. Obviously there is a certain amount of supply & demand that goes on with others. I mean, look at the bully breeders who get $2K a puppy, and they don't do any health testing and precious little showing. They get what they get because people will pay it.


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

that mean GARNER'S FRISCO had about 100 females saying each female has about 10 puppy each 
image 100 female dogs line up for your stud lol


----------



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

shadowgames said:


> -do you understand a dog bred like this will take a nip or bite at you possibly to get to another dog or animal.


Weren't Game bred dogs breed specifically not to bite and nip at handlers and people during fights or when involved with other dogs?


----------



## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

To get an ROM i think they have to produced 3 or 4 champions


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

T.G has a 3 year replacement guarantee against genetically based health problems
bahamutt99 you said you got your top dog for 600$ that only 300-400$ more 
iam willing to pay the 300-400$ 
i mean if your going to keep that dog for 12+ years $300-400 is no problem.. 
" this is to the ones that say it was to much"
i dont know about you guy but iam a big fan of the china man and Boudreaux line


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

I am too Mr. Lee, and your money is your business. I heard of dogs going for way more. Just check out the scene and base you decision from there.


----------



## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Not to sound clueless or anything, but who is Tom Garner.


----------



## sarallyn (Aug 17, 2008)

google tom garner kennels

he's a famous breeder -- renown for his game dogs (such as chinaman and frisco) and for having multiple litters on the ground at one time (up to 10 right now, I think)


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

lol he has 12 litters lol i just check


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

her is his set Announcement of Current Pups from Tom Garner Kennels


----------



## sarallyn (Aug 17, 2008)

Mr.lee said:


> lol he has 12 litters lol i just check


ah, okay. definitely knew it was somewhere up there.


----------



## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

That is alot of pups. I've never had a litter but I have bottle fed 3 pups at once and it sucked. I'm not even gonne lie. Then there's worming and de-bugging it all is so time consuming. But 12 litters COME ON!!!!


----------



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

" At Tom Garner Kennels we have produced more titled dogs and more satisfied customers in the past 15 years than any other breeding kennel anywhere in the world"

??? I don't see this. Is this true?


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Mr.lee said:


> T.G has a 3 year replacement guarantee against genetically based health problems


Not to be a snark, but for my $600, I got a lifetime guarantee. (I assume I have the same protection on my dirt cheap/free dogs because they're from the same breeder.) The guarantee should also extend to dogs that were sent out sick, too, IMO. If you buy a puppy, bring it home, and your vet says it's sick, the breeder should have some accountability there. In the contract I have on my dog, it says that if that happens, the breeder will either replace the puppy with one of like quality, give back your money, or return the puppy in well condition.

Do what you do. Pay what you'll pay. It's your money, and you deserve to be happy with what you buy. Just not something I would do, personally. I hunted for years to find the right breeder, because I just wasn't happy with what I was seeing in most places. And when I put my money down, there were folks who felt I should have rescued, and others who thought I should've went elsewhere. I don't think it's anybody's business where someone gets their dogs, unless that somebody puts it out there for others to comment on. Since the subject has come out, I have belabored it with my 2 cents. But I don't tell people that they're crazy to get a dog from a breeder they admire, whether I feel the same way or not. :hammer:


----------



## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> According to the peds site, "GARNER'S FRISCO ROM HAS 1042 OFFSPRING." How many CH does he have to produce to become ROM?


A male dog becomes eligible to be placed on the R.O.M. list if he has sired four or more champions. The R.O.M. dog will be awarded one point for every champion he has sired and will receive one additional point if any of the offspring should go on to become a Grand Champion. 
The rules are the same for bitches to get on the Register of Merit list, except,a bitch need only be the dam of three (3) Champions to gain a spot on the list.

Here's his offspring http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=offspring&dog_id=29

You guys can browse through the list of dams and draw your own conclusions as to wether or not the "puppy mill" label is appropriate.

BTW - good points Shadowgames.


----------



## Mr.lee (Aug 2, 2008)

i agree with you bahamutt99 we just miss understand each other


----------



## shadowgames (Jul 3, 2008)

american_pit13 said:


> Weren't Game bred dogs breed specifically not to bite and nip at handlers and people during fights or when involved with other dogs?


Yes, you are totally correct but the drive of dog bred like this means one thing D.A. at any means. When they got culled dogs back in the old days, they culled HA but a dog will nip and get you to get another dog. This isn't a HA dog but rather a dog with a very high DA drive. Just trying to show the light on why a game bred dog means more than just having DA pit bull. Most pit bulls are DA but a game bred dog is a different ball game. It would be like comparing a V6 mustang to Rousch edition Stage 3 Mustang, LOL, i am tired best analogy I could come up with.


----------

