# "Off The Chain" Pitbull documentary



## max (Jul 21, 2010)

I am not sure if this has been posted before, so I apologize if it's double post. Anyways, has anyone seen "Off The Chain; Dog Fighting Documentary"? What do you think about the documentary? Sorry i don't know how to post video.


----------



## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

I wont watch it....


----------



## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

I don't recall it being discussed here but I've seen the documentary. There's a lot of misinformation in it and the "dogman" they were talking to was a clown.


----------



## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Its crap video stupid movie and should be banned from existence IMO its all bull crap and the people they talked to didnt know what the heck they were talking about.


----------



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

We have had a discussion on it some time long ago, but threads where removed due to the video. It has some good info but alot of miss truth about dog fighting.


----------



## max (Jul 21, 2010)

Each side were trying to say they were doing the right thing. But they were both actually killing the breed. I can't believe they can do such a thing..


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

A bunch of garbage most of it is the same crap fueled by HSUS lies lies and some more lies .. You want to know the truth about dog fighting? Pick up a Stratton book or the complete game dog book. Or something written by one of the legendary dog men themselves.


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Garbage propaganda is all that crap is


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Street level idiots and humainiac ran councils.


----------



## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I own it. I only watched once the guy they talked to was a ( as someone said ) clown. He wasn't about the dogs he was a jerk. There was some good stuff in it but I wouldn't recommend buying. If anyone wants to veiw pm me and I will let you borrow it.


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

It's eh. It's about the breed so I watched it. But it's not really well-done IMO. Probably hard to make a decent documentary about something that is not socially-accepted and which most people would consider gruesome. Add to that how its a felony most places and I doubt you'll get a lot of people on board to help produce it.


----------



## Dr.Q (Jan 12, 2010)

I ve seen it on documentary heaven. The gentelmen sport is no longer and if you see the doctuentary You see. Tell you what, I will include the links just in case. 



The persons in the video are more vicious than an untrained rotweiller


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Who the f stands on a dogs head to release it?! Get a clue.


----------



## jayandlacy (Sep 21, 2009)

This is disgusting. I'm not ok with fighting dogs. I think these people are disgusting. I would never participate in such a sport, nor would I be able to know about something like this happening and not nark. I don't agree with any fighting, but I do think that in the old days it was done better then this. Although I think there is not any glamor, or class to it whether it is now or back then. This is one aspect of my dogs breed/history that I am ashamed of, this is why owning this breed is sometimes such a difficult task.


----------



## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Sorry we've never allowed any depiction or links that relate to those things. Do a search if you would like to see the vid.


----------



## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

jayandlacy said:


> This is one aspect of my dogs breed/history that I am ashamed of, this is why owning this breed is sometimes such a difficult task.


without this one aspect their would not be the "pit"bull.
their would be ratters,and thats about it.
now,with the pitting being A felony,all aspects that went into this breeds creation are gone by.
oh,and as to OP,they're A bunch of cornholers who don't know squat about pit doggin.
as someone said,it's HSUS propoganda used to fuel the inferno of A dying right to the most noble of breeds.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Wow ashamed of the history of your dog!? Why own it?
You dog is what it is today because of all the history.


----------



## jayandlacy (Sep 21, 2009)

I know! I know that, and honestly, I would rather not have a pit bull if I could change everything having to do with the fighting, if it would have stopped all of the blood shed then and now, all the abuse, all of the confinescating, and all the gassing...I would change it all and loose my dogs for greater good. But I cannot, so all I can do is love my dogs and care for them the best I can. All I can do is spread as much good about them as I can. Doesn't make anything in the past any less shameful or disgusting. And the fools in this documentary, well they are sorry excuses for dogmen. They don't love their dogs any more then they love their 5 babies mommas. OP asked for opinions, mine is clearly stated, and doesn't actually matter one bit.

I have a lot of german in my own blood-somehow mixed with a lot of asian...oxymoron there. I am ashamed of what the germans did to the jews but I cannot change that, I just make sure I am not that.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

jayandlacy said:


> I am ashamed of what the germans did to the jews but I cannot change that, I just make sure I am not that.


What the germans did to the jews was indeed wrong there are some hateful people in the world as history has proven that. But we are talking about a breed of dog who was created for an intended purpose they were bred to be gladiator's. What you own is piece of that history. If you don't like what they were created for it makes absolutely no sense to own the breed. As I said once before and I will say it again GAMENESS is what distinguishes the APBT from any other breed of dog. If you take away that virtue they are no longer the APBT and you might as well own a modern day Amstaff.


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

jayandlacy said:


> I know! I know that, and honestly, I would rather not have a pit bull if I could change everything having to do with the fighting, if it would have stopped all of the blood shed then and now, all the abuse, all of the confinescating, and all the gassing...I would change it all and loose my dogs for greater good. But I cannot, so all I can do is love my dogs and care for them the best I can. All I can do is spread as much good about them as I can. Doesn't make anything in the past any less shameful or disgusting. And the fools in this documentary, well they are sorry excuses for dogmen. They don't love their dogs any more then they love their 5 babies mommas. OP asked for opinions, mine is clearly stated, and doesn't actually matter one bit.
> 
> I have a lot of german in my own blood-somehow mixed with a lot of asian...oxymoron there. I am ashamed of what the germans did to the jews but I cannot change that, I just make sure I am not that.


There is nothing shameful about their past. They were not forced to fight each other in death matches or anything. It showed the breeds gameness, determination, and overall heart. Dogs like Mtn Man's Homer, Chinaman, Colby's Pinser, Bullyson contributed to the dogs you love today as well as the dogmen of the past. You should be respecting them


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

There are arguably more ethical, albeit more difficult, ways of determining gameness in dogs. As mentioned in another post, dog men overlooked detrimental traits in favor of a profitable pit dog. And in another post, someone pointed out that dog men are responsible for the dysfunctional dog aggression that pit bulls display today. If she decides she doesn't respect those men, her decision is just as valid as anyone who decides to respect them. History most definitely plays a part in the dogs, but no history is entirely good or bad. The most important thing is where breeders take it from here, and luckily most won't go in the direction of pit matching.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

spatulars said:


> There are arguably more ethical, albeit more difficult, ways of determining gameness in dogs.


Sorry but there is only one way to determine gameness in this breed. I'll give you a hint it's not on the weight pull track or in a show ring , it's not in a yard fight, it's not putting a task before your dog and having him complete it without giving up, it's not prey drive or working drive it's not a title or an award earned. Gameness is not even the willingness to continue fighting in a match. There is only one way to determine gameness in this breed and that is in the box there is no argument about that it's a FACT .... The APBT is the greatest warrior ever created gameness in this breed can only be shown and proven in one aspect and that's in the box.

*This is what Gameness Actually means : *

Gameness is not the willingness to continue fighting, in any definition. In short, gameness can somewhat be described by simply the willingness to continue, under all adversity and animosity, for the sake of improvement. However, in detail, the continuance is not to be misinterpreted as succeeding; being succeeded is the ultimate goal of gameness.

Gameness does not describe anything that is perfect, simply because there is no such thing. The strive for perfection can never quite be accomplished. But, for one to strive for near perfection, never falter on a decision made, learn from obstacles and implement the strengthening of weaknesses can be described as gameness.

The idea of gameness is to be fluent and to adapt to any task at hand.

*Knowledge is knowing the path, experience is to understand it.*

*Gameness can not be achieved or grasped as it is not a title or an award.Gameness is a perspective and can only be perceived in a competitive event where learning from an opposing opponent is relevant.
*


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Bang on sister!


----------



## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

spatulars said:


> . As mentioned in another post, dog men overlooked detrimental traits in favor of a profitable pit dog.


i'm not sure if'n you've delved into the realm of the old pit dogmen.I knew many of them way way back,and theirs not A single one who was stackin cash from matching dogs.their were a few,very few.i knew of A couple,but they had stepped into the new age where some dogs were purchased by dope dealers and kept by some of the older guys and then fought in that small world that could drop 50 grand on a match,and they could make 5 grand bets at the same time.they would cover the house often,anything you'd want to bet they even made book on them.
but before the mid 80's all the dog guys lived pretty much in the line.
this is my experience.not my opinion.
sometimes A oldster would bring in the kitty,first thing theyd do is expand the yard,buy A truck,expand blood,or equiptment, or pay notes.again to my experience.


----------



## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

This a good debate but just a reminder to keep it clean.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I have a hard time talking about this,because I can agree with both sides.
Where I am thankful for the dogmen for giving us these dogs,I'm also not to happy with the fighting aspect.
But it's something you can't really change it's in the history,so unless you have a time machine,there's no going back.
You have to just accept what these dogs were for,and learn to train them how you want them to act.
You can't take the fight out of a dog,but you can teach him/her to control it.

I'm pretty sure I saw this video on YT a while ago,and didn't finish it,cause it was a bunch of BS.

Was this the video with that A=hole and his "little black dog" as he so fondly called her.


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I feel bad for the dogs, they were engineered to kill each other because these dog fighters had nothing to do and they wanted entertainment plus they could make money from it. Plain and simple dog fighting was created for entertainment, ego and money. The profighters can run around circles all day and talk about the goverment taking our rights away and PETA and HSUS bla bla bla bla 

We have pit dogs because people found the bloodsport entertaining and they could make money from it PERIOD.


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

What is the difference between dog fighting, bull fighting, horse fighting & chicken fighting aside from the fact all is illegal in the States & the animals are different species??? This is where the whole 'dogs are conditioned & want to fight' thing/excuse bewilders me... Why is it the dogs 'want' to fight & how do you 'breed in gameness' vs 'train gameness' just doesn't make sense & sounds like a well thought out excuse so the fighter can continue doing what he/she wants to do despite what's in the best interest for the overall health of the animal & it's species/breed. This is where I get confused, conflicted & think any animal despite the species would 'want' to fight if put into a conflicting circumstance or taunted & if continued to do so it's going to be one TICKED off animal since that's the only life it knows which just sounds like instinctual reaction completely different from wanting to fight... An animal doesn't know wants or needs, just instincts.

On top of the fact what exactly is the definition behind 'conditioning' - I've heard several different opinions/definitions so imo that nullifies the whole 'dogs like to fight scenario'. I see little dogs of all types show DA & go at it all the time around my neighborhood as well as dare I say 'the dog whisperer' DA is common in all breeds & yet we here so little of it - I am always trying to think/analyze & understand both sides. 

Not trying to start an argument just downright SERIOUS questions because it doesn't make a darn bit of sense to me.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Lex's Guardian said:


> What is the difference between dog fighting, bull fighting, horse fighting & chicken fighting aside from the fact all is illegal in the States & the animals are different species??? This is where the whole 'dogs are conditioned & want to fight' thing/excuse bewilders me... Why is it the dogs 'want' to fight & how do you 'breed in gameness' vs 'train gameness' just doesn't make sense & sounds like a well thought out excuse so the fighter can continue doing what he/she wants to do despite what's in the best interest for the overall health of the animal & it's species/breed. This is where I get confused, conflicted & think any animal despite the species would 'want' to fight if put into a conflicting circumstance or taunted & if continued to do so it's going to be one TICKED off animal since that's the only life it knows which just sounds like instinctual reaction completely different from wanting to fight... An animal doesn't know wants or needs, just instincts.
> 
> On top of the fact what exactly is the definition behind 'conditioning' - I've heard several different opinions/definitions so imo that nullifies the whole 'dogs like to fight scenario'. I see little dogs of all types show DA & go at it all the time around my neighborhood as well as dare I say 'the dog whisperer' DA is common in all breeds & yet we here so little of it - I am always trying to think/analyze & understand both sides.
> 
> Not trying to start an argument just downright SERIOUS questions because it doesn't make a darn bit of sense to me.


APBT is a battle breed, they are the gladiator of all dogs! They DO want to be in that box, they choose to be in that box. You cannot make a dog compete if it does not want to. IF you have seen footage of a match you will see those dogs wagging their tail. If that dog turns its head away from that oponent a turn is called, then the dog who made the turn is first to scratch so it is let go from the corner first, if it doesnt head over to the opositions corner it does not want to fight the match is over. So people cannot say that dog doesn't want to be there.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> So people cannot say that dog doesn't want to be there.


My dog wants to eat.
doesnt mean its good for him or that he should.
There are alot of things my dogs want to do but me kknowing better I dont allow him to either. They didnt only exist in the box what about all the ones used on farms and as working dogs. imothe box is just a part of the history not the whole history


----------



## jayandlacy (Sep 21, 2009)

I have read sooooo many places that wagging tails mean nothing, nothing to do with temperment, dogs wag their tails. Now how they are wagging can mean different things, but wagging tails just wagging actually mean nothing. They're dogs....Just saying My dog has been in serious pain, and wagged his tail. Means nothing.


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

People need to understand these are the characteristics bred in the breed. Just like a correct German Shepherd dog wants to neutralize any intruder to his territory a pit dog wants to terminate his oponnent no matter what. But this doesn't change the fact dog fighting was created for money, greed and entertainment. If these organizations reallized dogs actually want to fight each other they would go after the dog fighters not the poor dogs that are doing nothing wrong but what they were designed to do. A single pet household with adequeate yard and exercise can give a rescued former prize dog a home with the right containment and isolation from other dogs instead of being deemed dangerous or vicious.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> My dog wants to eat.
> doesnt mean its good for him or that he should.
> There are alot of things my dogs want to do but me kknowing better I dont allow him to either. They didnt only exist in the box what about all the ones used on farms and as working dogs. imothe box is just a part of the history not the whole history


You dog eating crap and gamedogs have nothing to do with each other. Why should people take away what this dog was born to do? Doesnt mean everyone should sport their dogs but what is happening is preservation of the gamedog. 
You are very new to the breed, as ive said before i was in your boat i hated the thought of people fighting their dogs. but with years of reaserch my mind has changed.


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

jayandlacy said:


> I have read sooooo many places that wagging tails mean nothing, nothing to do with temperment, dogs wag their tails. Now how they are wagging can mean different things, but wagging tails just wagging actually mean nothing. They're dogs....Just saying My dog has been in serious pain, and wagged his tail. Means nothing.


I was at the shelter on Saturday and you better believe these dogs want to fight each other. A senior bulldog acted like nothing and inched his way towards a younger male and he was 3 feet away from catching the dog. He did not growl, he did not bark he just went for it. Again you also have to remember that many dogs have been watered down from fighting lines and even in fighting lines not every dog is going to come out a gladiator. But you always have to remember that these guys will not backdown from a challenge. If we respect their origins we will see less episodes in the news and less bad publicity for these dogs. Onwers that think it's alright to take your pit dog to a dog park or walk him loose in the neighborhood contribute the most to BSL.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

jayandlacy said:


> I have read sooooo many places that wagging tails mean nothing, nothing to do with temperment, dogs wag their tails. Now how they are wagging can mean different things, but wagging tails just wagging actually mean nothing. They're dogs....Just saying My dog has been in serious pain, and wagged his tail. Means nothing.


Well if they did not want to be there they will jump the box, cur away. 
There is no way you can MAKE a dog fight, what... put some food in front of them? a cat? give them some meth? a bitch in heat in the pit to make them fight?!?!


----------



## max (Jul 21, 2010)

There will be people who will be discussed with dog fighting and other will not. As for me, I grew up with family who do cockfigthing, this is big in my country (philippines) and it's recognize as a sport. The process of condition the Rooster is long and very difficult. Some people will say the actual fight is gruesome, but for those who grew up with it, it is not, because at the end of the day, you get to cook the defeated rooster. 
So my perspective in dog fighting is I don't hate it, I will not promote it, and/or I will not advertise it. But I will recognize, respect and honor the fact that pitbulls are gladiators and warriors.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> You dog eating crap and gamedogs have nothing to do with each other. Why should people take away what this dog was born to do? Doesnt mean everyone should sport their dogs but what is happening is preservation of the gamedog.
> You are very new to the breed, as ive said before i was in your boat i hated the thought of people fighting their dogs. but with years of reaserch my mind has changed.


what games dogs dont eat poop
Um I may be new to owning the breed but have spent sometime learning about them for awhile now hat s not to say I know much but I am well versed in the bs sport by dogfighters and how its just a sport the dogs want to and so on. When you read book writen by dogfighters your only getting part of the story. All the people that kept these dogs as farm dogs didnt write books. And actual the dog wasnt born to do this it original use was helping farmers then bull baiting the and then pit fighting.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> APBT is a battle breed, they are the gladiator of all dogs! They DO want to be in that box, they choose to be in that box. You cannot make a dog compete if it does not want to. IF you have seen footage of a match you will see those dogs wagging their tail. If that dog turns its head away from that oponent a turn is called, then the dog who made the turn is first to scratch so it is let go from the corner first, if it doesnt head over to the opositions corner it does not want to fight the match is over. So people cannot say that dog doesn't want to be there.


I am sorry, but this is where I step in. JUST because a dog is wagging it's tail,does not mean it is happy.
Dogs wag their tails out of fear,stress,anger and other emotions.
So you can't say a tail wagging dog in a fight is a happy dog.

and the fighting style you're talking about is not how almost all dog fighters of today fight there dogs.
it's kill or be killed anyway in most cases.

you cannot prove they WANT to be in the box. They were trained to be in the box,it's what they know. If they were trained to do something else,they would do that instead.
JMO

I just don't believe the dogs(if not trained to do so before hand) would want to stay in a box and get their @$$ kicked.)

They train pups at a young age to fight. Smashing their faces together to urge them on,how is that proving anything,besides proving that a dog will fight if pissed off.
Heck,if I did that to two lab pups,they would do the same thing,same with any breed. To me it doesn't prove sh**


----------



## jayandlacy (Sep 21, 2009)

You are mistaken if you think I don't know that my dogs want to fight other dogs. My dog has a new cut on his side, from in the back yard trying to get the same black dog threw the fence he's been trying to get for 5 years. I know that my dog wants to get other dogs. He is selective of who he wants to get but he hates the black dog behind our house. I know what my dog is capable of, I know what he wants to do. I also realize that he is a dog. They are smart, but not that smart. Thats what suppose to be the difference between humans and dogs, that is why we are the master and they the dog. I had a gsd that tried to kill every other dog too. I just don't see the sport in any animal being allowed to be used, and injured, for peoples entertainment. At least when men are in the ring, it is their choice, they know what theyre getting into, they know the consequences, animals are not the same, they don't have true foresight.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

dearly me, some people make me want to smash my head up against a brick wall.

I have had too many of these debates, i am not going to start another one.

Yes, dogfighting is wrong, the dogs hate it, people make them fight, horrible, people who are preserving the breed should be shot.


----------



## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

Xiahko said:


> They train pups at a young age to fight. Smashing their faces together to urge them on,how is that proving anything,besides proving that a dog will fight if pissed off.
> Heck,if I did that to two lab pups,they would do the same thing,same with any breed. To me it doesn't prove sh**


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

thanks for the laugh!!!
foolish


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

mastifs were war dogs you dont see people saying the only way to perserve the dog is to take them to war. gsd were protection dogs but you dont see people claiming the only real gsd is one that gets to attacke people so fighting is not the only was to perserve the dog. People who want to have this sport continue say this


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm not saying that most don't want to fight,I'm just saying that if given another option,they will take it.

When Bruno gets excited over another dog,all I have to do is pull out a treat,and the dog is instantly forgotten.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

How is that foolish? I've seen it done. Some people actually do this.

And preserving the breed doesn't mean you have to fight them


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Preserving the breed is one thing. Dog fighting is something separate. I love the breed, quirks & all & am thankful as a society we're evolving.

A little bit of jack was just using dog poop eating as an analogy to simplify the fact any dog is like a perpetual child that acts on natural instincts & not knowing what's good for it. From a scientific theory, ideally I'd say if anything the gameness in old dogs would have been due to high territorial issues & improper breeding. But I can't say for sure since I wasn't there. All I know based on history is we made several mistakes due to lack of education. All we can do now is learn & grow


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Xiahko said:


> How is that foolish? I've seen it done. Some people actually do this.


Maybe wannabie losers, but not dogmen, we are talking about Dogmen, not wannabie thugs trying to be tough and have a street fight, do not judge a true dogman on some loosers you saw on the street or on tv.

*sigh*


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

jayandlacy said:


> You are mistaken if you think I don't know that my dogs want to fight other dogs. My dog has a new cut on his side, from in the back yard trying to get the same black dog threw the fence he's been trying to get for 5 years. I know that my dog wants to get other dogs. He is selective of who he wants to get but he hates the black dog behind our house. I know what my dog is capable of, I know what he wants to do. I also realize that he is a dog. They are smart, but not that smart. Thats what suppose to be the difference between humans and dogs, that is why we are the master and they the dog. I had a gsd that tried to kill every other dog too. I just don't see the sport in any animal being allowed to be used, and injured, for peoples entertainment. At least when men are in the ring, it is their choice, they know what theyre getting into, they know the consequences, animals are not the same, they don't have true foresight.


I agree with your view about it being cruel and humans knowing more than a dog. But I do not agree when people label a dog dangerous because it is dog agressive, heck there is nothing wrong with that. Although dog agression and gameness is quite different I still try to educate those that meet my dog. Even though my dog comes from showlines I always let people know that he is wonderful with humans but I am not so sure about strange dogs, specially those of the same sex. I have not had a problem yet but I know it could still happen and I don't set my dog up for failure. JUst like a labrador wants to go in the water and swim, a pit dog wants to do his intended job no matter what.


----------



## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Maybe wannabie losers, but not dogmen, we are talking about Dogmen, not wannabie thugs trying to be tough and have a street fight, do not judge a true dogman on some loosers you saw on the street or on tv.
> 
> *sigh*


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

if thats the only thing they were made for then why own the breed if you dont fight them. Whats the reason. why did many people own them you cant tell me all of them fought the dogs and if all of them wanted to fight dogs how did the military use them in ww1 might make it hard if all the dog wanted to do is fight other dogs.


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

People who have this big a problem with the breeds history and what they are bred for, don't even need to own this type of dog. Some posts I see people making still dont have an understanding what dog matching was


----------



## jayandlacy (Sep 21, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Well if they did not want to be there they will jump the box, cur away.
> There is no way you can MAKE a dog fight, what... put some food in front of them? a cat? give them some meth? a bitch in heat in the pit to make them fight?!?!


In this documentary, they spoke of giving steriods. Sharpening teeth with a dremel tool...cmon. That makes whatever is naturally there that much worse. My dog would love the inside of the box. whats your point? You keep saying that it is what the dogs want, but it doesn't mean that they should be allowed. dogs wanna breed too, thats one reason theres soooo many in shelters. but people can control that too and keep it from happening by simply sterilizing their animals. I am a civilized person, and I feel that people that engage in that activity are barberic, like cavemen and are not as advanced as the rest of society.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> if thats the only thing they were made for then why own the breed if you dont fight them. Whats the reason. why did many people own them you cant tell me all of them fought the dogs and if all of them wanted to fight dogs how did the military use them in ww1 might make it hard if all the dog wanted to do is fight other dogs.


No one is saying if you dont fight them dont own them! Just accept what gamedogs speciality is, and you dog will somehere along the line decend from a gamedog, the dogs sported today are gameblood (what the modern apbt is from)


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> Maybe wannabie losers, but not dogmen, we are talking about Dogmen, not wannabie thugs trying to be tough and have a street fight, do not judge a true dogman on some loosers you saw on the street or on tv.
> 
> *sigh*


Sorry, I wasn't aware we were on the dogmen topic again.

Dogmen did not do this that I know of. I misread sorry.

I thought we were now on the topic of how they train them today.

I have accepted my dogs history. If I hadn't he would still be going to dog parks.


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Kayo45 said:


> People who have this big a problem with the breeds history and what they are bred for, don't even need to own this type of dog. Some posts I see people making still dont have an understanding what dog matching was


So why doesn't someone explain it in a better light... Other than 'the dog wants to fight'??? No one with a negative grasp will listen to that excuse.

I've seen nothing of evidential proof otherwise. Educate, please . I can see how a pit bull can be perceived as a 'gamedog' it's the beefcake rugby player of the dog realm in a human's perspective. But I can see 'gameness' as it's so called in any dog or animal really - because it's an animal, it's going to be territorial in a BOX being as animals need SPACE. Doesn't justify the purpose of doing so, imo. Hence the term 'dog eat dog world'...


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Xiahko said:


> Sorry, I wasn't aware we were on the dogmen topic again.
> 
> Dogmen did not do this that I know of. I misread sorry.
> 
> ...


No worries, and i agree with you on those 'dogmen' they are scum!
There is nothing diffrent going on about training todays apbt, it is the same as how it was done when it was legal


----------



## jayandlacy (Sep 21, 2009)

were talking about a documentary made what last year? not what it was. Better to have me owning the ones I have then some punk in the middle of flint town home of the killers baddest rap in the country. I live 10 mins from punks that do this everyday. I see dogs in the shelters with the scars. I see the dogs that I cannot pet in the shelters from the abuse. I have taken in dogs dumped on the east side of flint, when they have been claimed useless. THey now live in wonderful forever homes with children and families and food and water and warmth.

I have my dogs because they are loyal. They have more personality then most people, they are lovers and pleasers. that is why I have them. I don't have them because they would go in the box and love it. I have them because they love kids, they're easy to train, and shoot they are soooo cute. I don't have them for the wrong reasons as sooo many people do.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I don;t call them dog men. When people refer to the fighters of now as dog men,I think they're talking about the olden days.(that's where I get confused)
I do not believe there are any true "dog men" out there today,just dog fighters.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Xiahko said:


> I don;t call them dog men. When people refer to the fighters of now as dog men,I think they're talking about the olden days.(that's where I get confused)
> I do not believe there are any true "dog men" out there today,just dog fighters.


They are true dogmen out there, i can guarentee you.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

jayandlacy said:


> In this documentary, they spoke of giving steriods. Sharpening teeth with a dremel tool...cmon. That makes whatever is naturally there that much worse. My dog would love the inside of the box. whats your point? You keep saying that it is what the dogs want, but it doesn't mean that they should be allowed. dogs wanna breed too, thats one reason theres soooo many in shelters. but people can control that too and keep it from happening by simply sterilizing their animals. I am a civilized person, and I feel that people that engage in that activity are barberic, like cavemen and are not as advanced as the rest of society.


That movie is an embarrasment!
"I don't think shpening my dogs teeth gives me and unfair advantage" - CORSE IT DOES, IF YOU HAVE TO SHARPEN YOUR DOGS TEETH TO WIN A FIGHT WHATS THAT TELLING YOU.

Who would actually speak for a documentary and think they wont get caught, he is just a big mouth wannabie.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Well then,I hope they treat there dogs with respect,like the old dog men did.

I've only seen dog fighters,and they're not cool. Sorry again for misreading the topic~


----------



## max (Jul 21, 2010)

The Complete Gamedog Book cost $150+? Wow, that's expensive..


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Lex's Guardian said:


> So why doesn't someone explain it in a better light... Other than 'the dog wants to fight'??? No one with a negative grasp will listen to that excuse.
> 
> I've seen nothing of evidential proof otherwise. Educate, please . I can see how a pit bull can be perceived as a 'gamedog' it's the beefcake rugby player of the dog realm in a human's perspective. But I can see 'gameness' as it's so called in any dog or animal really - because it's an animal, it's going to be territorial in a BOX being as animals need SPACE. Doesn't justify the purpose of doing so, imo. Hence the term 'dog eat dog world'...


Gameness isn't soley an animal trait. And if a dog quits, it isn't game or has any heart. Keep reading on the breed and what the old timers said about matching and gameness. It seems you are willing to learn and their are several good books out their on the subject


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Guy's it's very simple there is no special sauce to this the APBT was created for a purpose just like every other breed of dog has there purpose. Our breed the (APBT) is a warrior dog bred specifically for (GAMENESS). Now you may not like the purpose or agree with what they were bred for but that doesn't change what these dogs were created to do. When you take away the key elements that make a breed what they are they are no longer the same breed. Just like how we got the American Staffordshire Terrier(once a warrior dog APBT) but years of breeding (select dogs) for the show ring and breeding out GAMENESS changed there purpose now we have the Amstaff AKA the show dog. 

Gameness is something you will never truly understand unless you have actually witnessed it first hand. But dog men bred these dog's specifically for that virtue. The ultimate and true warrior doesn't quit fighting no matter the adversity or pain inflicted from it's opponent . Gameness is a SELFLESS virtue and a RARE virtue for a dog to possess . To see gameness in the way it was intended to be shown is to truly have a total and complete understanding of it. Being DA is NOT gameness, many DA dogs will cur (or quit) in a dog fight. Don't be surprised when they quit it's when they don't quit that should surprise you. You CANNOT train a dog to be game or to possess gameness it's bred into them through selective breeding just like any other canine trait. Dog men didn't keep dogs who didn't produce or possess gameness they culled them. A real bulldog does not turn away from the opportunity to fight another dog a dog who takes another route is a cur and not worth breeding or owning IMO. Gameness is also NOT a canine behavior. Please for those of you that really want to learn about what gameness actually is and the TRUE history of dogfighting pick up a book written by some of the most well respected dog men in the dog world. There are plenty of them out there that will give you a true and honest prospective on the sport and the breed. These BS documentary's are laughable and a joke at best. Because real dog men didn't treat they're dogs like that. They didn't pump there dog's up with drugs before a dog match they fed there dogs well and conditioned them they also picked they're dogs up out the box and walked away cutting there losses when thousands of dollars were on the line to save they're dogs when they knew there dog was losing and there was no hope for turn around they didn't electrocute them and throw them away like trash. Only the Micheal Vick's of today's world do stuff like what's in those video's. Real dog men loved their dogs and cared for them better than most care for their dogs. And real dog men don't respect the idiot wanna be dogger's like the one's shown in this documentary.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Xiahko said:


> You can't take the fight out of a dog,but you can teach him/her to control it.


You can't teach a dog to control an instinct that was bred into them for hundred's and hundred's of years. You as the owner have to be smart enough and prepared to know that what you own is a piece of that history and control your dog from being able to have it's way with another dog. DA cannot be trained out of a dog and anyone who says it can is lying. DA can be only controlled by means of prevention. It's people who walk around blindly thinking they can teach their dog's to control that very instinct(DA) and train out the genetic makeup of the breed that end up on the news and cry later about it after the fact. Too many people rush to own a breed of dog without first understanding and researching breeds of dogs. Then they end up frustrated with a dog they can't control because they don't even understand it.


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

The thing about this doco is it contains nothing but morons at every end of the spectrum, the so called dogmen were street level thugs more than likely fighting their dogs in between shifting rocks.
Anyone who thinks a real dogman is going to risk exposing themselves by talking to a cameraman who was hired by the hsus is pretty stupid if you ask me.
And the goal of the maker wasnt to glorify it, it was to make it look as bad as humanly possible so when the tree huggers at the end of it are shown you get that warm fuzzy feeling youve been missing in the earlier sections.

I dont think it would be in the interest of the maker if they showed footage of two dogs fighting each other and one leaves the box without even having broken skin and the other has a few small holes in its leg that look like they could have been caused by a fence.; It simply wont get the same reaction.

Just like they wont admit that the dogs do have an inbuilt desire to fight even with training and there is allways a possibility they will scrap. 
Thwy made it look as bad as they could at the start and as warm as they could with rose coloured glasses at the end. 
i would love to see how many of those rescue people have prepared themselves for an incident between them and their dogs, and they were the owners who will say" it just snapped he never showed any signs before" and point the fingerf of blame away from their own ignorance.
The end was worse than the start in some ways with how much sugarcoating went on.


What they should have said is that this breed is not for everyone and explained why.

One thing to remember is this, A dogman never calls himself a dogman, that label is given to him by others, any one who calls themself a dogman isnt a dogman hes a wanker.


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Xiahko , if i gave you a fila do you think you could train it to not have an issue with strangers? For a well bred fila it is impossible. The apbt is no different with its da when it comes to well bred dogs.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

so pitfighting is just a romp threw the forest and most dogs leaves with a few holes on the legs


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

What I meant by control it,is to focus on something else and ignore what else is around them,that includes dogs.
If your dog respects you,and will listen to you,they will do this. Pit bulls from my understanding want to please their owners. So if you're on a walk and they see another dog,you can have them ignore it,and not attempt to go after it.
I'm not saying that given the opportunity,should it arise,they would back down from a fight,cause I know Bruno wouldn't. He's proven that he wants to start sh*t,if the other dog is willing.
But after a lot of training,he's able to walk by dogs,and almost completely ignore them.
It just takes treats and he's completely forgotten what he was barking and lunging at to begin with.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

junkyard said:


> Xiahko , if i gave you a fila do you think you could train it to not have an issue with strangers? For a well bred fila it is impossible. The apbt is no different with its da when it comes to well bred dogs.


I have no idea what a fila is...So most likely not. LOL~


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

If you could control a dog not to be DA then my flatmates dog would be alive right now


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> so pitfighting is just a romp threw the forest and most dogs leaves with a few holes on the legs


Let's put like this there are dogs who died in the pit DEAD GAME is what they are referred to. But the idea behind the sport was to walk out with a good game dog alive and breathing a good dog man from what my mentor has taught me does not just allow a good game dog to die in a match when a dog can no longer continue but has given it's absolute all in the fight the dog should be picked up and losses should be cut this is also historically how it was intended to be done. There are vet's on site to care for these animals during and after matches. The dog's are not supposed to be killed like shown in this documentary. It's important that you read your history books and talk to some knowledgable dog folks before you place any judgement on the sport and the history of the breed.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I guess what I am saying regards to them when out in public in a controlled environment. 
You can't control a dog when left on it's own. Then the dog will act on it's true intentions.
That's why I never leave my dogs alone together.
I wouldn't expect Bruno to get along with every dog he sees,but his @$$ better listen to me,when I am on the other end of the leash,and this involves his behavior towards other dogs.
I know what it's like to have an aggressive dog,believe me I know.


----------



## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> If you could control a dog not to be DA then my flatmates dog would be alive right now


Excellent point. All you can do is control the circumstances (which I know you were trying to do).


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm going to be borrowing a book here from a member,then maybe I will have a better understanding.

All I know is the sh*t I've seen on youtube,and the crap HSUS feeds the public.

I don't know,nor have I ever met a real "dogman" So I honestly don't have a clue how the fights were run back then,compared to now.
Besides the fact that true dogmen respected and loved their dogs.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> Excellent point. All you can do is control the circumstances (which I know you were trying to do).


YES! This! This is what I was trying to say, I just made it a bit to complicated. :/


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Jack dont put words in my mouth, my example was exactly what it would have been if it was made by a dogfighters perspective, sorry you couldnt see my point, i will explain it easier.

They showed the worst possible example of a dogman they could possibly find, stepping on a dogs neck, forcing the dogs to fight, sharpening the dogs teeth , electricuting the losing dog. It shocks and leaves people thinking "oh my god"

Now if it was made in the exact way but pro dogfighting, they would use an example like i mentioned above[dogs with minimal scratches] people would think, "oh its not as bad as i thought".;

If you want the truth about it all keep reading and watching and if you are as open minded about it you will find it is somewhere inbetween.

The main problem people have who know nothing about the sport that was is the fact all they know is based on what they hear from the people who are totally against it, and that bases their opinion and from there it is ingrained.

I am not asking anyone to enjoy and actually like what it is, just understand thats where the dogs come from and its what made them the animal they are today, its what made them so good with people, its what made them want to please so much, its what made them the athlete they are today.
Find another dog that looks as muscular as a well conditioned apbt.

Just because i accept the history of my breed it doesnt mean im going to fight my dogs, i just enjoy having knowledge on what my hobbies are and to get a complete understanding i want to know everything i can.

No one said you have to like it just accept it.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

well from the info ive read I get a very different picture than you I guess granted you have Im sure alot more knowlege but the stories I've read from dogmen them selves I dont get the picture you claim happenes. Not one of the old stories Ive read talked about any vet yes the owner worked to try and save the dog but not a vet. Maybe I'm seeing the wrong books and the wrong info. I'm still learning and tring to find info but I have yet to come across anything thats show that this wasnt a horrible socalled sport. A gentlemens game yet the fights i read were well hidden. made illegal years ago so them men teaching you are criminals and most criminals I know lie yes I know afew. It would seem to me that the same people that claim this as a gentlemens sport are the same that would say jesse james was good guy or that the mafia was full of honor.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

If you choose to ignore their history,you're only asking for trouble.
It's like those people who think their "pit bull" is different and would NEVER hurt another dog,and take them to dog parks,and other uncontrolled environments. That does the most harm to this breed.
People that think their dog will"never fight"

I had this argument with someone on FB once. They told me,if their pits ever got into a fight with each other,or another dog at a dog park,they would just kick them in the nuts/hit them in the head.
They obviously have NO idea what these dogs are capable of. That would NOT break apart those dogs,if anything,it would fuel the fire.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Today in other parts of the world where dog fighting is still legal they have vet's on site taking care of these dogs during and after a match. Back in the day's dog men worked to save their dog's they provided the care needed to heal their wounds. How do you think a dog like Mayday could be fought many times and show no outward signs of being fought or very minimal evidence of being fought?? Dog's who are taken proper care of before and after a match are not supposed to be all scarred up like that. But you won't see a documentary showing that now will you?


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Today in other parts of the world where dog fighting is still legal they have vet's on site taking care of these dogs during and after a match. Back in the day's dog men worked to save their dog's they provided the care needed to heal their wounds. How do you think a dog like Mayday could be fought many times and show no outward signs of being fought or very minimal evidence of being fought?? Dog's who are taken proper care of before and after a match are not supposed to be all scarred up like that. But you won't see a documentary showing that now will you?


No you will not,because fear sells. And they want you to see the most gruesome of fights to have you believing that all dog fights are like this.
That's what PETA and HSUS do,they like to show you the worst case.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Here is STP'S Buck 7xw box dog does this dog look like it's been fought 7 times??? Obviously my point is that not all dog men mistreated they're animals even though they fought them they still took excellent care of them. But you will never see a documentary about that it will always be some BS showing the absolute worst possible senario about the sport. Lies upon Lies fed to the general public.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Pretty dog. Kinda looks like Bruno.
Not a noticeable scratch on him.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

And that is all I am trying to do is educate I am not a dog fighter I would never fight one of my dogs. But I am very passionate about the breed and have a strong desire to learn as much as I can about them and their history. I would go to the pit before I would ever allow one of my dogs to. But I honor the breed and love and admire the history behind my dogs and those dog men responsible for giving me what I own. I know that the sport is not as horrific as it's made out to be when it's done correctly. I am not saying we should all go out and fight our dog's rather we must never be ashamed of what they are and what they were bred to do. And shouldn't allow the HSUS to consume and tarnish our thoughts and ideal's of this great breed or shame us into not accepting or loving our dog's for who they really are.


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I see you're point.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

I'll have to look the post up but what about the dog that was blinded by the fights her part took in and this was and old dogman dogs.

I understand that these videos are not accurate but just because this is a horible video doesnt mean the sport was not brutal. And yes I do agree that everyone should learn as much as they can not just with dogs but everything seems like a lot of people do things without fully learning what they need. I do not have any illusions as to the breeds history I just dont think we hear everything just one side and thats the fighters view. Someone wrote I cant remember were that at one time this was americas number one dog and you cant say all those people faught their dog so there is history we dont know from people that owned these dog as pets or simple working dogs. Yes I'm sure there were dogmen that were not that bad but i'm sure that was not the norm but thats just my opnion


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Xiahko said:


> I had this argument with someone on FB once. They told me,if their pits ever got into a fight with each other,or another dog at a dog park,they would just kick them in the nuts/hit them in the head.
> They obviously have NO idea what these dogs are capable of..


this is messed up but someone like that shouldnt be resonsible for anything
I do hate people like this


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

As do I. Ignorant.. At least I had a few others to back me up.

I told him flat out,he had never seen an actual pitbull fight,if he was able to break them up that easy,then it was a quarrel,and not a fight...Or they weren't pits to begin with.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Jack on the contrary there is a right and a wrong way to match a dog know one is saying it was all roses but if you think that dog men wanted to loose a good game dog on a bad day your wrong. Those dog men did pick their dogs up and cut there looses. They did provide excellent care to their animals and as twisted as it may seem to some they loved their dogs. There is another part of the sport and the great dog man behind these great dogs that these documentary's so conveniently forget to mention because the documentary was only made with one purpose in mind to deceive the public about a breed and a sport they no nothing about.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

I'll Im saying is some may have but there were plenty that sold the dogs left a right so how much could you have loved that dog just to sell it.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I'll Im saying is some may have but there were plenty that sold the dogs left a right so how much could you have loved that dog just to sell it.


Because they are working stock bred for a specific purpose when that animal does not meet your criteria you get rid of it. You have to understand dog men were not pet bull owner's LOL they bred these dogs to do a job if it couldn't meet the job function or requirements the dog needed to be culled. Why would you breed and feed an inferior dog for working purposes? Would you own or breed a dog with poor conformation for the show ring? What purpose would that dog have to you? Absolutely none!


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Jack please read over my posts, i havent painted you any picture at all, i used and example that was the oppisite end of the spectrum to the one that was used in the doco. i didnt paint anything here, i try to let people make their own choices when it comes to the matching side of things.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

i'm talking about ch dogs not curs proven dogs that were sold over and over
some that I read about were sold because of specific reasons but some idnt say why just that they were sold


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Jack can you name some of the breeders who sold dogs left and right? i know a fair bit and i can only recall two or three dogmen of old who sold big numbers of dogs that would fall into the peddler column.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

junkyard said:


> Jack can you name some of the breeders who sold dogs left and right? i know a fair bit and i can only recall two or three dogmen of old who sold big numbers of dogs that would fall into the peddler column.


Yep that's what I was just getting ready to say you beat me too it LOL:goodpost:


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I think he is saying that dog men sold CH fighter's??? to other yards?


----------



## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

I think there is a danger of over simplification here on both sides. The dogmen of old were like any other group or subculture in the world. There were examples of both ends of the spectrum, good and bad, while most were somewhere in the middle. Over romanticising or over demonising would be naive.


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

*"Gameness is not the willingness to continue fighting, in any definition. In short, gameness can somewhat be described by simply the willingness to continue, under all adversity and animosity, for the sake of improvement. However, in detail, the continuance is not to be misinterpreted as succeeding; being succeeded is the ultimate goal of gameness."*

Here's where I don't understand any complete refusal that dogs can still be tested and bred to be "game" without dog fighting. 
These dogs originated as bull baiting dogs, and no doubt they were bred for gameness under that original purpose. You had better believe that those dogs would hang on to a raging bull, get hurt while being flung from the head or neck, possibly stomped or gored with a horn, and would get back up and still go after the bull.

That is still gameness. No mere ratter compares with that bravery. I would kill a hog or a cow any day, but never risk the life of a dog.

That trait, that gameness, is not in pit bulls because of dog fighting. It was already there, and dog fighters selected for it and were able to use it for their sport. Maybe they are the ones who redefined the term for the breed to exclude any purpose but dog fighting, but that is unfair to the breed.

*"We have pit dogs because people found the bloodsport entertaining and they could make money from it PERIOD."*

EXACTLY. These dogs are what they are now, good and bad, because of dog fighting. BUT they were great dogs before dog fighting, great dogs during, and they still will be great warriors after dog fighting. It is only in the dogs' interest that dog fighting is illegal.

*"Why should people take away what this dog was born to do? "
*
Dogs are only born to do what each generation breeds them for. Pit bulls now are born to be great workers rather than great at fighting other dogs. Why can't these dogs escape the shadow of a cruel sport? Now is this breed's time to become mainstream working dogs again, and all it takes is a bunch of breed stewards who keep history in mind but move forward and away from the criminal sport of dog fighting.

There might be some who want to beat their heads on brick walls in defense of dog fighting, but no matter how much I research, I will never want to exploit for entertainment any self-destructive tendency in my dog. I would just as soon pit my own baby against another baby (if babies were bred for a fighting tendency.) Dog fighting is most certainly not in the best interests of a dog, no matter which perspective you hold.

I'm not trying to demean the good dog men, and I'm not ashamed of the history, but dog fighting is really indefensible today and I had to speak up when I saw people talking about dog fighting like we were back in 1960.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Aren't you the same person who left me negative rep points for advocating dog fighting??? Now you want to engage in a debate with me on the subject? I am sorry but people like you sicken me you show me where on this thread that I said I support DF? Rather I am not one of those fools who goes out and buys a pit bull because it's the trendy thing to do. I have a deeper understanding for the breed because I actually did my research on these dogs and took it upon myself not to believe everything I see or hear. I am sorry but I will NEVER EVER be ashamed of my dog's history or the dog men behind them. People like you kill me they want to own a fighting dog but can't stand the idea of the dog ever being fought and it's almost always the same type of owner that is responsible for the headline new's stories because they refuse to accept the breed for what it was bred to do ignorance is bliss you cant have it both ways. And maybe before you go placing judgements about the sport and those people on this thread speaking about the FACTS of the sport *Historically* !!! Maybe you should do some research yourself instead of feeding off garbage fed to you by the HSUS. There are so many things wrong with your post I am going to let someone else respond to it. FYI it's people like you who ASSUME that because they accept they're dogs history or own game bred dogs or chain their dogs that we must be fighting them right? Because we can openly discuss the history of our dogs that must mean we fight our dogs too??? LMAO get a clue spatulars. God forbid we own and use break stick's and treadmills we are all doomed then. And I suppose we are supposed to respect our dog's history but never speak about it in the present day and time because that just means we are advocating Dog Fighting??? Sorry but I will never be shamed into silence by someone who has no clue about this great breed. Regardless of the breed's past this is a pitbull forum we can openly discuss these subjects and give our opinions without actually being dog fighter's.


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

And who was negative repping me because I spoke against you and others railing against another member because she can't support dog fighting? If negative rep is going to go around, then I have just as much right to disapprove a dissenting viewpoint as others have done to me. I never made it personal, I simply disapproved of your posts because you romanticize dog fighting in the good old days, just like people romanticize the wild west. It's in the past, and no matter what effect it had, it's not part of the future. 

Just because I won't support it, won't continue it, won't romanticize it does not mean that I only like the breed because it's "trendy." I'm not afraid of debate, I'm not afraid of people telling me when I'm wrong, and I'm not going to blow up on someone and tell them that they sicken me just because they disagree with my pit bull world view. 

This is a forum that is mostly positive for pit bulls, gives lots of owners of pet bulls a place to deal with the difficulties facing the breed. A lot of people read this forum and form their views based on the posts of others. Those who believe everything they read, as you suggest I do, might read your posts and think that dog fighting is all picnics and roses. Hardly appropriate for a breed in danger from scared citizens who don't know jack about a pit bull as well as from underground criminals who have taken dog fighting to modern extremes.


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

But the dog fighting is not in the past as much as you think it is, it is however in the past in your country as the law states but as close as mexico it is still a part of the breed heavily. 
There are a lot of places around the world where it is still perfectly legal and is still using gameness as the main thing they are after.
If that wasnt the case TG wouldnt be breeding litters off ch pitdogs.

And Spatula you are correct they were game before the pit when they were called bulldogs, we are talking about the APBT take the "p" out and its just a ABT.
Or call it a Amstaff.

The dogmen of old are not the one who put this breed in the hot water its in now, it was the generation of wanna be idiots who started selling the breed to the general public as a failsafe family pet, they were treated like the standard breed and dogs started getting loose and attacking people, the street level morons got into them as a fad dog and it got worse and worse.

I find it somewhat amusing that people will say "but its against the law" and because of that no one tests their dogs anymore. 

The old guy up the road from me is pushing nintey years old, and has had his license to drive taken away from him. 
he still drives most days , he has been behind the wheel of a car for over fifty years and all of a sudden he is not aloud to drive?
there are plenty of old people who do this who is that person to srop me from driving is what they would think.
Drink driving is against the law but people die everyday due to intoxicated drivers not following the rules.

Do you think that every single dog matcher who has been doing it for decades stopped because the man said so?
A very high percentage would do the right thing but there will allways be a % that wont.

And its not like you will find any real dogman behind a keyboard typing a response to other peoples posts.
Behind closed doors you can bet its a different world.


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

I'm certainly not saying that you fight your dogs, but you paint too pretty a picture of dog fighting. Dog fighting isn't our grandpa's sport any more, and people aren't doing it out of honor and pride. And please don't pigeonhole me into any humane movement. I'm a no-nonsense person, and I fully respect animals of all kinds, including the kinds that I shoot, skin, and eat.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

spatulars said:


> And who was negative repping me because I spoke against you and others railing against another member because she can't support dog fighting? If negative rep is going to go around, then I have just as much right to disapprove a dissenting viewpoint as others have done to me. I never made it personal, I simply disapproved of your posts because you romanticize dog fighting in the good old days, just like people romanticize the wild west. It's in the past, and no matter what effect it had, it's not part of the future.
> 
> Just because I won't support it, won't continue it, won't romanticize it does not mean that I only like the breed because it's "trendy." I'm not afraid of debate, I'm not afraid of people telling me when I'm wrong, and I'm not going to blow up on someone and tell them that they sicken me just because they disagree with my pit bull world view.
> 
> This is a forum that is mostly positive for pit bulls, gives lots of owners of pet bulls a place to deal with the difficulties facing the breed. A lot of people read this forum and form their views based on the posts of others. Those who believe everything they read, as you suggest I do, might read your posts and think that dog fighting is all picnics and roses. Hardly appropriate for a breed in danger from scared citizens who don't know jack about a pit bull as well as from underground criminals who have taken dog fighting to modern extremes.


Yes I returned the negative rep points to you  I felt it was justified after you basically accused me of being a dog fighter because I speak openly about the sport and it's history. The topic of this thread is about a documentary based on dog fighting is it not???? The documentary is a bunch of BS lies and propaganda nothing more. And your wrong I don't romanticize anything it's ok for some idiot to make a documentary like off the chain that depicts dog fighting in one aspect (the worst senario possible using thugs and stereo types about the sport with lie on top of lie ) but it's not ok for other's to refute it and tell another side to the story? Dog fighting is NOT in the past my friend it's still legal in other parts of the world.People are still breeding these dog's for gameness just as they did in the good old days. Dog men are still risking their freedom to preserve these dog's in their truest form. Like it or not Dog fighting is never going to end. And it will always be apart of the breed 100 years from now time will not change that. As I stated before I will go to the pit before I ever send one of my dogs but I will NEVER be shamed into silence by Peta, the HSUS, or by any pet bull owner who wishes to own a fighting breed but can't come to terms with the reason these dogs were even created to begin with. Now you don't have to like my point of view but don't go slapping a label on me just because I gave my opinions people are so quick to call or label someone a dogfighter or advocate because they speak openly about the history and can see both sides the good and bad.


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

If it was aimed at me ? i havent glorified anything at all besides how awesome the breed is.


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

"But the dog fighting is not in the past as much as you think it is, it is however in the past in your country as the law states but as close as mexico it is still a part of the breed heavily.
There are a lot of places around the world where it is still perfectly legal and is still using gameness as the main thing they are after.
If that wasnt the case TG wouldnt be breeding litters off ch pitdogs.

And Spatula you are correct they were game before the pit when they were called bulldogs, we are talking about the APBT take the "p" out and its just a ABT.
Or call it a Amstaff"


Either on this post or another the posters were saying that amstaff aren't still game, and that has got to be because they weren't used for dog fighting and the breeders of the past didn't use any other method of determining and selecting that trait. I fully understand that fighting gave the dog men a reason and a way to select gameness, I see that they saved that entire trait in America, but I think it is imperative to find a more ethical way to do that today. I mean, where there is a will, there is a way. This breed deserves at least that much from their breeders. 

I saw Garner's kennels thread, and from what I saw of the living conditions it looked to me like he found a way to be prosperous with the dogs and keep them great without sacrificing them. As far as the sires being CH, however... I guess that's still the way he judges gameness.


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

"I speak openly about the sport and it's history" "The documentary is a bunch of BS lies and propaganda nothing more."

"Dog fighting is NOT in the past my friend it's still legal in other parts of the world.People are still breeding these dog's for gameness just as they did in the good old days. Dog men are still risking their freedom to preserve these dog's in their truest form. Like it or not Dog fighting is never going to end. And it will always be apart of the breed 100 years from now time will not change that."

What if the dog fighting the documentary portrayed is modern urban dog fighting? You speak to the history of dog fighting, but obviously you aren't involved with the Michael Vicks of the world. How can you really say that you know what dog fighting is like today, and that it's a better sport than the documentary? It's like saying murder is ok because gunfighters used to duel honorably. And you actually think it's a good thing that dog fighting is still legal in poor crime-ridden nations?


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

junkyard said:


> If it was aimed at me ? i havent glorified anything at all besides how awesome the breed is.


That was a second response to Sadie.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I believe in preservation of breeds. I understand what these dogs were bred to do while I support preservation in the breed. I am not willing to fight my own dogs plain and simple. Some might not agree with me but in order for a breed to be preserved they must be upheld and bred to the purpose in which they were originally created. I can say that there is a right and a wrong way to match a dog. A good dog man of today will always look to the old dog man of yesterday those dog men set the standard for the sport. You will always have some punk thug like Vic trying to match dogs that's never going to change.


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Is there something wrong with the way i post? 

that is the second time today someone has put words in my mouth.

Please Quote what i wrote in your next post. I would love to see the part where i said it was good.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Don't feel bad Junk they put words in my mouth too even neg'd me for being an advocate for dog dogfighting LOL.


----------



## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

junkyard said:


> Is there something wrong with the way i post?
> 
> that is the second time today someone has put words in my mouth.
> 
> Please Quote what i wrote in your next post. I would love to see the part where i said it was good.


It must be your Aussie accent .


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

junkyard said:


> Is there something wrong with the way i post?
> 
> that is the second time today someone has put words in my mouth.
> 
> Please Quote what i wrote in your next post. I would love to see the part where i said it was good.


I apologize for not quoting, I went back and edited so you could see who I was responding to.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

max said:


> The Complete Gamedog Book cost $150+? Wow, that's expensive..


Max it's out of print that's why it's so expensive.... it's a good book every that all APBT owner's should own and read. You can try ebay or amazon may find it a little cheaper.


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Don't feel bad Junk they put words in my mouth too even neg'd me for being an advocate for dog dogfighting LOL.





Sadie said:


> What the germans did to the jews was indeed wrong there are some hateful people in the world as history has proven that. But we are talking about a breed of dog who was created for an intended purpose they were bred to be gladiator's. What you own is piece of that history. *If you don't like what they were created for it makes absolutely no sense to own the breed.* As I said once before and I will say it again *GAMENESS is what distinguishes the APBT from any other breed of dog. If you take away that virtue they are no longer the APBT and you might as well own a modern day Amstaff.*


*"Sorry but there is only one way to determine gameness in this breed. I'll give you a hint it's not on the weight pull track or in a show ring , it's not in a yard fight, it's not putting a task before your dog and having him complete it without giving up, it's not prey drive or working drive it's not a title or an award earned. Gameness is not even the willingness to continue fighting in a match. There is only one way to determine gameness in this breed and that is in the box there is no argument about that it's a FACT .... The APBT is the greatest warrior ever created gameness in this breed can only be shown and proven in one aspect and that's in the box."
*

I was steamed when I read those paragraphs from you, it was a shocking argument. To think that pit bulls would only be pit bulls if they are fighting other dogs is a terrible argument that dismisses the entire breed as a single-purpose tool. Breeds always have turning points, like when bull baiting was banned. Now dog fighting is banned, for good reasons, and the breed will continue on if breeders commit that it will. And if they want gameness to continue in dogs, they will have to find other ways to identify it plain and simple. Maybe it was easier in the good ol' historical days of dog fighting, but whether or not dog fighting will continue the good days are definitely past. The name of the breed has to be repaired, and only ethics and responsibility will combat bsl effectively.

I'm sorry because I read what you said, that you have to like dog fighting to own the breed, and that really sounded like a pro-dogfighting argument to me. It also sounded like an accusation against those who LOVE the dogs and hate dog fighting. That sentence framed all of my responses against you and my disapproval of your posts, because I actually thought you were saying that you like dog fighting.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I am not saying I do or don't condone dog fighting I certainly never said I supported it ... I am saying I don't fight my dog's never have and never would. I am saying I understand and accept that preservation is key in any breed without it you cannot uphold a breed to it's original purpose for which they were created. I am saying that Gameness as it relates to the APBT can only mean one thing there is no other way to test for gameness without putting the dog in the box(contrary to your beliefs I strongly disagree with your idea of gameness). I am saying people who can't respect and acknowledge the history of the breed and the dog men behind them shouldn't own the breed. Why would anyone want to own a breed they are ashamed of and those dog men responsible for their existence? I am saying that just because dog fighting is illegal in the US doesn't mean that there are not dog men risking their freedom to continue matching them. It's also legal in Japan, Mexico and other parts of the world. That small percentage of dog men are still preserving the APBT in it's truest form keeping them honest and selectively breeding for gameness.


I am saying Dog fighter's are not the one's ruining the breed it's irresponsible pet bull owner's who rush into buying and breeding these dogs without researching the breed first many of them have no idea how to properly handle and care for these dogs let alone breed them. The majority of shelter dog's don't come from dog fighter's yards most of the dogs in shelters are a result of back yard breedings (unstable mutt's) who were placed/sold to any Joe Blow and many of them end up dead or in a shelter. Dog Fighter's don't make headlines for allowing they're bulldog to get loose and attack another dog or for leaving they're bulldog alone with a small child who get's hurt or killed by the dog. It's the average pet bull owner who you see on the new's for stuff like that. People rush to own this breed because it's been made popular( and not by dog fighter's I might add).... dog fighter's own these dog's because they were bred for a purpose and they choose to uphold them to that purpose dog fighter's don't own and breed these dogs because of the bulldog fad going on in the world. Dog fighter's also don't breed to peddle pups to the general public to make a few bucks. They breed for the fighting ring so mostly everything they breed they keep or cull or trade off to another dog man. 

So when talking about BSL you need to look at the real problem it's not dogfighter's who are ruining the breed and being targeted by BSL it's the average pet bull owner. Bulldog owner's need to wisen up and start being smart about these dogs start properly containing them, stop leaving them unattended with children. Keep them on leashes when they are outside of your fenced in yard. Stop taking them to dog parks to prove a point to the general public by forcing them to mingle with other dog's when you know good and well they were bred to be DA when your bulldog attacks another dog at one of these parks (wether it started the fight or not) you look like the complete Jacka** and the only point you proved is that pit bull's should be banned from dog parks. Accept the breed for what it is and use prevention and good judgement to keep these so called accident's from happening. Stop peddling and over breeding these dogs like there is some sort of bulldog shortage in the world. Last but not least these dogs are not for everybody before you rush to buy a pit bull you should do your research learn about the breed and determine if these dogs are right for you. That is my take on it if I had my way only a small percentage of people would be allowed to own these dogs the less people who own them the better. I understand that people won't always agree with my views but I don't expect them to. I respect everyone's opinions and will gladly agree to disagree.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

junkyard said:


> I dont think it would be in the interest of the maker if they showed footage of two dogs fighting each other and one leaves the box without even having broken skin and the other has a few small holes in its leg that look like they could have been caused by a fence.; It simply wont get the same reaction.
> 
> Now if it was made in the exact way but pro dogfighting, they would use an example like i mentioned above[dogs with minimal scratches] people would think, "oh its not as bad as i thought".;
> .


yep I put words in your mouth sure did
sure sounds like your discribing a little Roughhousing


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

spatulars said:


> *"Sorry but there is only one way to determine gameness in this breed. I'll give you a hint it's not on the weight pull track or in a show ring , it's not in a yard fight, it's not putting a task before your dog and having him complete it without giving up, it's not prey drive or working drive it's not a title or an award earned. Gameness is not even the willingness to continue fighting in a match. There is only one way to determine gameness in this breed and that is in the box there is no argument about that it's a FACT .... The APBT is the greatest warrior ever created gameness in this breed can only be shown and proven in one aspect and that's in the box."
> *
> 
> I was steamed when I read those paragraphs from you, it was a shocking argument. To think that pit bulls would only be pit bulls if they are fighting other dogs is a terrible argument that dismisses the entire breed as a single-purpose tool. Breeds always have turning points, like when bull baiting was banned. Now dog fighting is banned, for good reasons, and the breed will continue on if breeders commit that it will. And if they want gameness to continue in dogs, they will have to find other ways to identify it plain and simple. Maybe it was easier in the good ol' historical days of dog fighting, but whether or not dog fighting will continue the good days are definitely past. The name of the breed has to be repaired, and only ethics and responsibility will combat bsl effectively.
> ...


All dogs were bred for a purpose and are a creation of man. I dont know why that is hard for you to believe and why you choose to not except it. Research bloodlines of this breed and that should give you your answer as to what they were created for


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Sadie said:


> I am not saying I do or don't condone dog fighting I certainly never said I supported it ... I am saying I don't fight my dog's never have and never would. I am saying I understand and accept that preservation is key in any breed without it you cannot uphold a breed to it's original purpose for which they were created. I am saying that Gameness as it relates to the APBT can only mean one thing there is no other way to test for gameness without putting the dog in the box(contrary to your beliefs I strongly disagree with your idea of gameness). I am saying people who can't respect and acknowledge the history of the breed and the dog men behind them shouldn't own the breed. Why would anyone want to own a breed they are ashamed of and those dog men responsible for their existence? I am saying that just because dog fighting is illegal in the US doesn't mean that there are not dog men risking their freedom to continue matching them. It's also legal in Japan, Mexico and other parts of the world. That small percentage of dog men are still preserving the APBT in it's truest form keeping them honest and selectively breeding for gameness.
> 
> I am saying Dog fighter's are not the one's ruining the breed it's irresponsible pet bull owner's who rush into buying and breeding these dogs without researching the breed first many of them have no idea how to properly handle and care for these dogs let alone breed them. The majority of shelter dog's don't come from dog fighter's yards most of the dogs in shelters are a result of back yard breedings (unstable mutt's) who were placed/sold to any Joe Blow and many of them end up dead or in a shelter. Dog Fighter's don't make headlines for allowing they're bulldog to get loose and attack another dog or for leaving they're bulldog alone with a small child who get's hurt or killed by the dog. It's the average pet bull owner who you see on the new's for stuff like that. People rush to own this breed because it's been made popular( and not by dog fighter's I might add).... dog fighter's own these dog's because they were bred for a purpose and they choose to uphold them to that purpose dog fighter's don't own and breed these dogs because of the bulldog fad going on in the world. Dog fighter's also don't breed to peddle pups to the general public to make a few bucks. They breed for the fighting ring so mostly everything they breed they keep or cull or trade off to another dog man.
> 
> So when talking about BSL you need to look at the real problem it's not dogfighter's who are ruining the breed and being targeted by BSL it's the average pet bull owner. Bulldog owner's need to wisen up and start being smart about these dogs start properly containing them, stop leaving them unattended with children. Keep them on leashes when they are outside of your fenced in yard. Stop taking them to dog parks to prove a point to the general public by forcing them to mingle with other dog's when you know good and well they were bred to be DA when your bulldog attacks another dog at one of these parks (wether it started the fight or not) you look like the complete Jacka** and the only point you proved is that pit bull's should be banned from dog parks. Accept the breed for what it is and use prevention and good judgement to keep these so called accident's from happening. Stop peddling and over breeding these dogs like there is some sort of bulldog shortage in the world. Last but not least these dogs are not for everybody before you rush to buy a pit bull you should do your research learn about the breed and determine if these dogs are right for you. That is my take on it if I had my way only a small percentage of people would be allowed to own these dogs the less people who own them the better. I understand that people won't always agree with my views but I don't expect them to. I respect everyone's opinions and will gladly agree to disagree.


:goodpost:

I think the point of others debate about the subject in a whole is the evolution of the dog fighting in general. What the 'dogmen' use to do & what it's evolved into today, I believe the blame rests on dogmen shoulders. Does that mean I judge them as an individual, no. But I disagree with the choices they made that lead up to today's circumstances.

If it weren't for ignorance & carelessness of 'dogmen' in the beginning, we wouldn't have some of the issues & animal abuse crimes we face today.

BYB spawned initially from 'dogmen' - due to WWI & WWII breaking out it's the evolution of ignorance & greed - plain & simple. Can't change the past but we can better the future.

Other cultures fight dogs across Asia & Europe. But it's Taboo in North American, UK, Indian, Pakistan & other Cultures. Some of the countries that fight dogs are THIRD world countries that do FAR worse aside from dog fighting. Dog fighting is just a tip of the iceberg, an excerpt of the unfathomable things they do as a third world society & those choices rest on that societies shoulders.

It isn't just pitbull owners that need to be more responsible with their dogs it's all dog owners as a whole. Instead of arguing over something as controversial & Taboo as dog fighting we need to come together & teach people about responsibility & use dog fighting as JUST ONE example as to why it's important to be a healthy responsible owner for our dogs.

Dog fighting is unacceptable & anyone (no matter how influential they are in society or not) who's coming in here to gain knowledge about how to better care for their pet bull & to better the breed will see threads like this as a turn off - so we need to choose our words wisely. It's one thing to teach non biased history, it's another to say it's okay...

Preservation of history I understand, preservation of a magnificent dog I'm all for. Preservation of a narcissistic barbaric sport, sorry we're not in the 1920's anymore.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

aus_staffy said:


> It must be your Aussie accent .


Bahahaha! 
JUst having a beer on the deek, by the pearl.

IMO this is not going anywhere, people who do not know the truth and have knowledged themselfs with documentarys like this is pretty much failing at getting to the pro dogfighting.

Pick up a few of R Strattons books, seriously they speak the truth.
Coz apparently we are lying about the way PDF goes down


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

I never said you were lieing about how pros do dog fighting but it's still is no better

funny same argument when some one does not agree about dog fighting they just must not know enough about it. Everyone of the arguments you claim make it ok are nothing new same story different people saying.


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I never said you were lieing about how pros do dog fighting but it's still is no better
> 
> funny same argument when some one does not agree about dog fighting they just must not know enough about it. Everyone of the arguments you claim make it ok are nothing new same story different people saying.


Enlighten me please, have you met any dogmen? have you met any gamedogs? Or is everything you know off media, documentarys ect?

Why is it wrong to compete in what these dogs excell in?


----------



## max (Jul 21, 2010)

I am not sure where this thread is going to lead to, but everyone agrees that the documentary is nothing but BS. Real dogmen cared for their dogs. 

My question to everyone is; What would you do if you live in a place where Dog Fighting is legal?


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Enlighten me please, have you met any dogmen? have you met any gamedogs? Or is everything you know off media, documentarys ect?
> 
> Why is it wrong to compete in what these dogs excell in?


Because they hurt each other and the only one reaping the benefits is the guy that bred the dog so he can show off he has a good dog. Maybe he will even get some bucks out of it too, what does the dog get out of a fight? cuts, bruises, broken bones oh yeah Class A medical treatment by a guy that is not even a vet.

See if the dog men would fight each other hand to hand combat and beat each other into a pulp before they fought their dogs I would even understand it, but they don't their dog does the work while they sit back and watch.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

max said:


> I am not sure where this thread is going to lead to, but everyone agrees that the documentary is nothing but BS. Real dogmen cared for their dogs.
> 
> My question to everyone is; What would you do if you live in a place where Dog Fighting is legal?


Do you realy have to ask just like the dogmen they quote they would be fighting them


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I never said you were lieing about how pros do dog fighting but it's still is no better
> 
> funny same argument when some one does not agree about dog fighting they just must not know enough about it. Everyone of the arguments you claim make it ok are nothing new same story different people saying.


Wether you agree with it or not is besides the point. That is what they are bred for and if you want the breed to continue to exist that is what they will continue to be bred for. Obviously like any sport out there, it's not for everyone but it definitely doesnt look like this is a breed of dog for you though.

My best advise is to pick up gamedog related books and read up on those. There are several good ones out there


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

max said:


> I am not sure where this thread is going to lead to, but everyone agrees that the documentary is nothing but BS. Real dogmen cared for their dogs.
> 
> My question to everyone is; What would you do if you live in a place where Dog Fighting is legal?


Most other countries that dog fight out in the open is considered 'acceptable' not necessarily legal, governments like that are typically ran by war lords.

I'm thankful daily I was lucky enough to be born in North America & have a military out there that are willing to lay down their lives so we can live safer.


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> Because they hurt each other and the only one reaping the benefits is the guy that bred the dog so he can show off he has a good dog. Maybe he will even get some bucks out of it too, what does the dog get out of a fight? cuts, bruises, broken bones oh yeah Class A medical treatment by a guy that is not even a vet.
> 
> See if the dog men would fight each other hand to hand combat and beat each other into a pulp before they fought their dogs I would even understand it, but they don't their dog does the work while they sit back and watch.


You need to do some more reading on these dogs and how it is with them and dogmen.The books are out there


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Trust you to show up. oh boo hoo he gets a few injuries, he doesn't give a **** hes a American Pitbull Terrier, he has GAME.
> I bet they would fight each other if they wanted too.
> People need to stop thinking dogs are humans. We are the ones who brought them into our houses!
> 
> Im sitting back and watching this thread from here.


exactly a primitive society created these sports. The same primitive society that did not think Women and Men are equal. The same primitive society that allowed minorities to be treated like objects. So do you really want to glorify an ear where all of this was happening sadly enough women still get treated like crap in third world countries where these sports are legal.

You keep going with your excuse about them wanting to fight each other HELLOOOOOOOOO we know they want to kill each other, you don't have to do anything to make them want to do this. They are selectively bred to kill each other. The only these fighters is to condition them to have stamina and hope they dont jump the box.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

well I choose not to believe criminals because most lie you take them for their word thats great but even in therre own writings the truth comes out. 
An people believe these dogs are only for fighting comes from people like you.
I'm sure some love the dogs pedo say they love the children they hurt.
domestic violence people say the love their spouce. but we dont say they do know do we. we are now going in circles and i think we found the root cause of our difference you see not problem piting animals agasinst each other and I do. even people in the 1700-1800 disliked it thats why its illegal


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Kayo45 said:


> You need to do some more reading on these dogs and how it is with them and dogmen.The books are out there


Trust me I have read enough about the dogs and the dogmen. About the keeps and a lot of fights. I know these dogs want to fight because they were bred to fight. Even a scatterbred water down petbull could have it in him to be this way if he has of it in him.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> exactly a primitive society created these sports. The same primitive society that did not think Women and Men are equal. The same primitive society that allowed minorities to be treated like objects. .


The sam eprimitive society that made it illegal


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> The sam eprimitive society that made it illegal


really where do you see slavery in the united states? are women allowed to vote? are they allow to work now days or they are not?:clap:


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> so what is the difference between a human and a dog?


Do i really have to explain that to you. In your opinion nothing thats where there is the problem.


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Do i really have to explain that to you. In your opinion nothing thats where there is the problem.


read your cp


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

back at you


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> See that's the spirit lol and my dog would lick you to death so that wouldn't work lol


Because they're not HA

*sigh*....


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

I feel everyone has valid points, some subjects I still disagree with. I feel there are better ways to channel the dogs need to stay active. Just because a dog turns from a fight I don't believe that means it lacks heart, it means the dog is reacting to natural instincts - imo. I don't understand why dogmen didn't study that reaction more... Instead of belligerently saying the dog lacks heart (it's a dog for heaven sake - not Mohamed Ali)???

I too believe the fiery spirit of the APBT needs to be preserved. I feel it's what makes this breed so versatile & excel at any activity it's conditioned to do. Whether it be a loving family dog, therapy dog, agility competition, hunting...Whatever the activity be the apbt is so brilliant, quickly & easily trainable & can do it all.


----------



## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

their are alot of people who are familiar with dealing with dogs.
their was one episode of cops,where A well trained fighter was fighting with several cops,he was winning,they sent in the dog,and the dog came out from the attack.
it was an episode shot,mid 80's in Ft. Lauderdale Fl.dude was an animal.
when I worked cable TV as a lineman in miami A friend was attacked by some big dog,didn't see it happen,but did read the police report.he killed the dog,and the H/O tried to press charges.they sicced the dog on him,then didn't like the results.my little brother had A 140# rottie,it tried to grab my face.
I caught him double fisted under the collar,rolled my fist under and held his bodyweight against the backs of my hands.
he p'd on me too.so I mashed his nads with A nice open face kick.
nowadays,I've got A DA pit,55# and I do believe she'd kill 'bout anything she saw comin.


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Where did my videos go ?


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

william williamson said:


> not everybody in this world cringes at the thought of violence.


I dont cringe at the thought of violence I just think we should protect things weaker than our selves we should protect the innocent but i do think violence beget violence. but violence to stop evil men is violence well used. I have no illusions about the breed and what dog fighting is. Just think we should advance our selves to better thought that seeing what animal can beat what animal.yes animals fight natually but that what makes us more advanced


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Lex's Guardian said:


> I feel everyone has valid points, some subjects I still disagree with. I feel there are better ways to channel the dogs need to stay active. Just because a dog turns from a fight I don't believe that means it lacks heart, it means the dog is reacting to natural instincts - imo. I don't understand why dogmen didn't study that reaction more... Instead of belligerently saying the dog lacks heart (it's a dog for heaven sake - not Mohamed Ali)???
> 
> I too believe the fiery spirit of the APBT needs to be preserved. I feel it's what makes this breed so versatile & excel at any activity it's conditioned to do. Whether it be a loving family dog, therapy dog, agility competition, hunting...Whatever the activity be the apbt is so brilliant, quickly & easily trainable & can do it all.


:goodpost:


----------



## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

Lets keep this on topic and with out the crap shots or I'm shutting the thread down.

1. Dogmen and Dog fighters 2 different groups
2. History of any animal or human is relevant in our present and future (IMO)
3. Respecting its history and having an understanding of it doesn't make any member
a dog fighter nor does it mean they condone it, so a few of you should get a grip.


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

i simply cannot grasp that you cannot understand my post jack i will explain it fore the third time and if you dont understand or its to complicated for you and goes over your head today thats just bad luck.

my post that you quoted is the exact oppisite to what they showed in the doco, that was the point of it . In the doco they show the worse end of the spectrum, people standing on dogs necks ect because it wont fight, and electricuting dogs ect.

MY EXAMPLE wasnt glorifying anything infact i specifically chose to write the softest end , the complete other end of the spectrum, which is what would maybee happen if it was made to make dog fighting look better than you think.

Do you not understand and cannot grasp i was using it as an example i never once claimed thats what dog matching was did i , you need to go back and read all of my posts again , everyother person here understood my point and you are the only person who has needed to have my posts disected and made clear.

You obviously missed the part where i said the truth is somewhere inbetween the examples. IT WAS AN EXAMPLE NOTHING MORE.

I am sorry for the caps but i am losing my patience and you simply cannot have a reasonable conversation with someone who only takes what they please from your posts while the rest of it is forgotten because it suits the perspective of the person reading it.


SHEESH!


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Well said duece i havent seen a single post in three pages, that was on topic , more people forcing a back and forth banter of crap.
It couldve gone in a decent direction if it didnt seem to get personal, which realy is whats happened.

Bearbaiting? Women voting? People beating up dogs? 

Come on people you can do better than that deep breaths and re read where it went wrong.
It is not about gloryfying dog fighting or arguing how brutal you think it is personally, its about the doco, finding poor examples or good examples in it and discussing them like adults.

Its real simple, if you cant read the thread and the posts in it properly you simply shouldnt be posting at all.
Yes you have the right to an opinion but you certainly dont if you wont read others posts but simply block your ears and eyes screaming LA LA LA LA LA LA , until you feel its your turn to post.

Dont mess up what can be a potentially decent thread simply to proove your right .

Not everyone is going to agree with you which ever side your coming from. lets be civil people.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lex's Guardian said:


> I feel everyone has valid points, some subjects I still disagree with. I feel there are better ways to channel the dogs need to stay active. Just because a dog turns from a fight I don't believe that means it lacks heart, it means the dog is reacting to natural instincts - imo. I don't understand why dogmen didn't study that reaction more... Instead of belligerently saying the dog lacks heart (it's a dog for heaven sake - not Mohamed Ali)???
> 
> I too believe the fiery spirit of the APBT needs to be preserved. I feel it's what makes this breed so versatile & excel at any activity it's conditioned to do. Whether it be a loving family dog, therapy dog, agility competition, hunting...Whatever the activity be the apbt is so brilliant, quickly & easily trainable & can do it all.


Lex maybe I can shed some light to this a little more I agree that in TODAY'S society the average dog owner does not need to be matching dog's and testing for gameness. I don't even feel that most people are worthy of owning these dogs. You have a small percentage of dog men in the world left who are still matching dogs selectively breeding APBT's to retain gameness preserving the game dog = APBT.

Then you have the show/ pet bull owner's who are breeding the game bred dog for weight pull, hunting, the show ring, shutz, agility, ect. These things are all positive and healthy alternative ways to channel your dog's working ability without breaking the law however they don't preserve the game dog because that key element we have speaking about (GAMENESS) is not being tested and utilized in the way it was intended to be.

I think what your having a hard time understanding is the gameness virtue please understand this is a very rare quality in bulldogs not all bulldogs possess gameness. Gameness is not just about having heart because many APBT's have heart. A game dog who posses gameness will never quit in the fighting ring it will continue to fight regardless of the adverse circumstances it encounter's from it opponent in a match the dog does NOT stop until it has been picked up by it's handler dead or alive. Just think about it a dog who will continue to fight regardless of the pain inflicted from it's opponent regardless of injuries the dog does NOT stop. They don't stop because it's been bred into them (GAMENESS) they don't want to stop no matter what. That is what gameness really is dog men would never breed a CUR NEVER!! If the dog doesn't want to fight or turns away from a fight it's a CUR if the dog stops fighting in the ring it cur'ed out. You have to try and think outside the box here don't think as a pet owner think as a dog man for a minute to really try and grasp this.

Here is a read for you maybe it will shed some light on this for you....

The Degree's of Gameness by Tom Garner


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Lex maybe I can shed some light to this a little more I agree that in TODAY'S society the average dog owner does not need to be matching dog's and testing for gameness. I don't even feel that most people are worthy of owning these dogs. You have a small percentage of dog men in the world left who are still matching dogs selectively breeding APBT's to retain gameness preserving the game dog = APBT.
> 
> Then you have the show/ pet bull owner's who are breeding the game bred dog for weight pull, hunting, the show ring, shutz, agility, ect. These things are all positive and healthy alternative ways to channel your dog's working ability without breaking the law however they don't preserve the game dog because that key element we have speaking about (GAMENESS) is not being tested and utilized in the way it was intended to be.
> 
> ...


I respect your opinion but it sounds like a dog's version of dare I say mentally challenged illness & being taken advantage of... as a blunt metaphor... A dog that was closely inbred, that's the only way I can understand how a person could gain such highly DA dog?

It's disconcerting to me, as you stated above:

"Gameness is not just about having heart because many APBT's have heart. A game dog who posses gameness will never quit in the fighting ring it will continue to fight regardless of the adverse circumstances it encounter's from it opponent in a match the dog does NOT stop until it has been picked up by it's handler dead or alive. Just think about it a dog who will continue to fight regardless of the pain inflicted from it's opponent regardless of injuries the dog does NOT stop. They don't stop because it's been bred into them (GAMENESS) they don't want to stop no matter what."

I think you could still test for 'gameness' with a muzzled dog but I don't see the necessity of it. At the end of the day an amstaff & an apbt will still be two different breeds of dog. Society is way over populated & too close together for df to be safe, as society grows so do regulations - it's counter productive to keep debating this concept & be anti BSL-imo.

Due to lack of knowledge & scientific research back in the day I think dogmen didn't really know what they had on their hands. Nor how to keep it proper based on what on see today in present time vs back in the day, what it escalated into. But I do realize that they are two separate type of people I can only see where today's common DF stemmed from.

If this still were to exist today or come back I could only see it being acceptable with HIGH & STRICT regulations & the dogs being muzzled at all times for safety precautions. I can see of course the dog men taking care of their dogs back in the day, it was different times & they couldn't afford to keep buying/reproducing their dogs due to the WWars going on & the depression. Completely different times with completely different people. I accept the History for what it is. But I don't see how anyone being anti dog fighting can get such negative responses being it's illegal. On top of the fact back in the day the dog would be culled out if it didn't fight, that's all the more reason I'm in such opposition of it. Instead of researching as to why the dog won't fight, they said the dog didn't have heart & culled it. That's just an animals natural instinct to get out of a harmful situation, an animal that doesn't is over inbred & harmful to itself. IMO that's natures way of handling the weakest link that really isn't meant to naturally exist because naturally without man stepping the dogs we see today that stemmed from what once existed wouldn't be here today.

The only reason those dogs didn't hurt themselves or anyone else is the fact those men timed the fights, took high precautions & stepped in once it 'got out of hand'. You won't see that ever today because, well, people are either A. flat out stupid or B. against the idea as a whole. The dogs of today are also either scatterbred or line bred making for a healthier dog mentally & physically over time so the kinks have been working itself out. Just evolution at hand.

I really try to think of it from both hands, but I'm a humanitarian so it's really hard for me to grasp the concept, especially when it seems no one tries to understand my pov. Not that it's that big of a deal but if I'm willing to meet half way then I think it's only fair & customary for the opposite idea to at least view mine. Just sayin'


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Well we have come to a cross road in this thread I have done my best to educate to the best of my ability but I feel like this thread is going no where .. So I will exit it with an agree to disagree. For those who truly wish to understand gameness and the game dog in a better light there are many great books out there you can PM me and I would be more than happy to give you some titles of some worthy reads.


----------



## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

junkyard said:


> more people forcing a back and forth banter of crap.
> It couldve gone in a decent direction if it didnt seem to get personal, which realy is whats happened.
> 
> Bearbaiting? Women voting? People beating up dogs?


if every topic that showed up on the net stayed specific to just that,without a bit of baiting or humor it would be humdrum.
I jousted A bit playfully with David.we've done it before we'll do it again.
unless of course you get your way,then we'll drone at each other.
sometimes things feed off of other things,bearbaiting is in the dogs history,so it coming into some fashion of reference.
women voting,that sometimes is A connoting of someone not respecting ones opinion.l
people bangin it out with dogs,emotions,they just get the best of folks.
I'll give it that the mods had ultimately too "size it up",yet it is an emotional topic.
it comes up often,as folks sign up and they bring it as A topic of sorts,and we do it all over again.
I bantered with David,he knows how I feel and my dog history association.and he played it back well.
it's growing pains,and when you remove the process,we become streamlined to A specific scope.
no one person should be the personality of the board.
their is only one CHUCK NORRIS, LOL.


----------



## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

william williamson said:


> if every topic that showed up on the net stayed specific to just that,without a bit of baiting or humor it would be humdrum.
> I jousted A bit playfully with David.we've done it before we'll do it again.
> unless of course you get your way,then we'll drone at each other.
> sometimes things feed off of other things,bearbaiting is in the dogs history,so it coming into some fashion of reference.
> ...


 no prob


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

Kayo45 said:


> All dogs were bred for a purpose and are a creation of man. I dont know why that is hard for you to believe and why you choose to not except it. Research bloodlines of this breed and that should give you your answer as to what they were created for


I'm saying that purpose changes over time.


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Well we have come to a cross road in this thread I have done my best to educate to the best of my ability but I feel like this thread is going no where .. So I will exit it with an agree to disagree. For those who truly wish to understand gameness and the game dog in a better light there are many great books out there you can PM me and I would be more than happy to give you some titles of some worthy reads.


I'm all about willing to learn & highly respect anyone willing to step out & teach history for what it is. But at the end of the tutorial everyone's going to have a different form of opinion, it's really nothing personal .

I really appreciate you stepping out & respectfully educating food for thought... I just happen to have a dismal disposition about what they did, not as bad as today - but heck I'm the type that cried at bambi, okay lol. I have people in my family that hunt, I still got love for 'em, just hate the idea of hunting. Same kinda concept really  & hunting is perfectly legal. I understand everyone's not going to agree with my opinion, which is cool. But food for thought in return for food for thought.


----------



## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

No worries here william, im all for fun, it seemed to get personal for a couple of posters there and that gets threads closed.


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

spatulars said:


> I'm saying that purpose changes over time.


Then the breed becomes watered down and becomes a completely different dog(I.E. the English Bulldog)


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

spatulars said:


> I'm saying that purpose changes over time.


Like turning it into something it is not, destoring what man has worked so hard to preserve.
We already have 'the modern pitbull terrier' that we have strongly domesticated. Why do the same have to apply to the GD's?


----------



## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

junkyard said:


> No worries here william, im all for fun, it seemed to get personal for a couple of posters there and that gets threads closed.


yes,yet they got it done.
we have had some bloodbaths,thank God we weren't in the same room,hehehehe.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lex's Guardian said:


> I'm all about willing to learn & highly respect anyone willing to step out & teach history for what it is. But at the end of the tutorial everyone's going to have a different form of opinion, it's really nothing personal .
> 
> I really appreciate you stepping out & respectfully educating food for thought... I just happen to have a dismal disposition about what they did, not as bad as today - but heck I'm the type that cried at bambi, okay lol. I have people in my family that hunt, I still got love for 'em, just hate the idea of hunting. Same kinda concept really  & hunting is perfectly legal. I understand everyone's not going to agree with my opinion, which is cool. But food for thought in return for food for thought.


It's ok Lex I completely don't expect everyone to agree with my views and opinions ... I can only make my argument where I feel I have one.. What people take from it is completely up to them. I am not one to beat a dead horse once I have given it my all I know when it's time to walk away. I respect everyone's opinions even when I don't agree with them. It's nice to be able to debate and educate even if we can't reach a common ground or understanding about a subject.


----------



## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

Lex's Guardian said:


> I respect your opinion but it sounds like a dog's version of dare I say mentally challenged illness & being taken advantage of... as a blunt metaphor... A dog that was closely inbred, that's the only way I can understand how a person could gain such highly DA dog?
> 
> It's disconcerting to me, as you stated above:
> 
> ...


If it were still to exist today? This Saturday there will be a pitbull fight in probably every State. It goes on in select groups, no outsiders anymore. No friends of friends invited. Money on the line, dogs getting tested. They just aren't talked about or published anymore. I think that makes for a lot less traveling matches and more local stock matched up.


----------



## spatulars (Sep 30, 2010)

Kayo45 said:


> Then the breed becomes watered down and becomes a completely different dog(I.E. the English Bulldog)





MISSAPBT said:


> Like turning it into something it is not, destoring what man has worked so hard to preserve.
> We already have 'the modern pitbull terrier' that we have strongly domesticated. Why do the same have to apply to the GD's?


Then the dogs are condemned if they remain GDs, and condemned if they become serious working dogs? Either they are destroyed by fringe elements like the HSUS after being found on raids, or they are watered down and useless? This can't be such a black-and-white issue or the dogs would be doomed. I've seen enough members with working titles to know that these dogs will still excel in modern sports and hunting.


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

spatulars said:


> Then the dogs are condemned if they remain GDs, and condemned if they become serious working dogs? Either they are destroyed by fringe elements like the HSUS after being found on raids, or they are watered down and useless? This can't be such a black-and-white issue or the dogs would be doomed. I've seen enough members with working titles to know that these dogs will still excel in modern sports and hunting.


Believe what you want because I am not arguing this anymore but i believe in preserving the breed and not turning them into amstaffs


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Kayo45 said:


> Believe what you want because I am not arguing this anymore but i believe in preserving the breed and not turning them into amstaffs


Amen to that brother!!! :goodpost: In a nutshell that's what it all boils down to.


----------



## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

spatulars said:


> Then the dogs are condemned if they remain GDs, and condemned if they become serious working dogs? Either they are destroyed by fringe elements like the HSUS after being found on raids, or they are watered down and useless? This can't be such a black-and-white issue or the dogs would be doomed. I've seen enough members with working titles to know that these dogs will still excel in modern sports and hunting.


:goodpost:

Sports that surpass 'purpose' with true meaning. Especially when it comes to wild game like boar


----------

