# My pup's ped question



## jkoo1982 (Jan 3, 2009)

Hi, I'm a new member to this forum and a new and very happy owner of an AmBully and not an APBT it looks like. He's 75% Razor's Edge and 25% Gotti. I should receive my puppy's papers soon and I wanted an opinion on his bloodlines. Any info on his ancestors or an opinion on his bloodline would be much appreciated. I notice that there was some inbreeding going on in the family tree. I would like to know if there are any potential problems that may come up because of the inbreeding. Thank you!

*ttp://riversedgepitbulls.com/Tank_x_Girl_Puppies.htm

replace the " * " with an "h", I can't post outside url's yet...


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

Looks like a typical American Bully pedigree. I don't really see any inbreeding, there is some line breeding, but a good breeder will usually weed out any pups that come out with obvious genetic problems.

Bullies in general have health problems, respatory, joints, skin. Did they health check the parents? If not then you will just have to ask if the parents have had any issues. Then you will just have to hope you got a healthy pup.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

My uncle is also my grand daddy and half brother.......

Sorry couldn't help myself.


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## Msmith1 (Dec 23, 2007)

Well you have a couple of nice dogs in the ped.... I'm a fan of Remy! Paco is a good dog also! Ultimate Blue's has some good looking dogs there as well... Cairo is a nice dog....

Well you might run into something but I wouldn't really worry about it... just get your vet to check him/her every once in awhile.... it isn't as bad as some linebreeding I have seen... 


I hope everything goes well with your pup!


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

Msmith1 said:


> Ultimate Blue's has some good looking dogs there as well...


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:...yeah ok, to each his own I guess.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Kim at Ultimate Blues buys other peoples work (older already breeding aged dogs) and just breeds them and puts her names on the litter. She has been doing this for YEARS.I don't see one dog on her site that she has personally bred. I have no respect for her nor her business practices... as far as I know she doesn't preform health tests. She currently owns the stud to Indi (Tua)...Kim is refusing to honor the contract which she bought him (tua) on which included so many already paid for stud service... Indi is now having to be surgically artificially inseminated because we have to use frozen semen from his previous owner.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

Yeah I spoke to Kim several times myself and was not impressed to say the least. I lost a $600 deposit because I canceled on her after getting screwed around with several breedings later of not be able to produce my pick. It was a lesson learned. She doesn't do health testing but very few bully breeders do.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Kim also bought Shia on her females page from the same guy she got Tua from. He had a pup back deal on her after the litter dropped, Kim told him that he had to make his pick by the time the litter was 3 weeks old otherwise he forfeited the right. He was very upset with this because there's no way you can see any sort of potential out of the 3 week old!


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## Ncprisonguard (Jan 19, 2009)

Yeah... good luck with your Am Bully... I am not a fan of that breed at all. But to each his own just do the world a favor and spay/neuter that dog and call it and American Bully and not a "pit bull"


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

i completely agree with calling these dogs what they are, but you don't have to spay and nueter all the dogs... Where I disagree...you can't say to spay and nueter them all, people just need to breed the best to the best just like in any other breed.


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## Ncprisonguard (Jan 19, 2009)

But the question is..... is there really a "best" when it comes to the American Bully? I am all for American Pit Bulls being bred properly and culled hard.... but I have yet to meet an AM bully I'd consider worthy or procreating.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

Ncprisonguard said:


> But the question is..... is there really a "best" when it comes to the American Bully? I am all for American Pit Bulls being bred properly and culled hard.... but I have yet to meet an AM bully I'd consider worthy or procreating.


Wow, you sound like someone else I know on here.... This is a board for bullies and bulldogs alike last time I checked.


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## Bleu Clair (Jun 14, 2008)

MADBood said:


> Wow, you sound like someone else I know on here.... *This is a board for bullies and bulldogs alike last time I checked.*


Exactly. You've made it pretty clear in a few posts that you don't like AmBullies. If you don't like the dogs Ncprisonguard that's fine, but people here tend to keep negative comments about another's chosen breed to ourselves because, as MADbood said, this is a board for both.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

MADBood said:


> Wow, you sound like someone else I know on here.... This is a board for bullies and bulldogs alike last time I checked.


Well if thats a jab at me,its wrong,i believe blue bulls diseale is worthy of being bred,reason being he's a working dog that gets work,thats all it takes,it isnt brain surgery.Dont breed for working stock and focus only on size and color then yes cull them all,the pounds and back yards of the irresponsable are already over flowing with useless,neglegted bullys bred for all the wrong reasons,why incourage more?


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## Ncprisonguard (Jan 19, 2009)

I am all for people having their bullies and being proud of them... so long as they call them Am. Bullies.. and not pit bulls or APBTs. They aren't my cup of tea... and as far as negative comments go. If you post a picture of your dog or a pedigree of your dog then am I wrong to think you want people's honest reactions? I mean if its the mood of this forum not to post a reaction you have to someone's picture that they ask for opinions on then someone say so and I'll do whatever....



Bleu Clair said:


> Exactly. You've made it pretty clear in a few posts that you don't like AmBullies. If you don't like the dogs Ncprisonguard that's fine, but people here tend to keep negative comments about another's chosen breed to ourselves because, as MADbood said, this is a board for both.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

I just think there should be some degree of fairness. I have been told to keep my negative comments to myself and I have been seeing alot of double standards going on here. If you are going to jump one person's ass for stepping over the line and not another...well who the hell would want to be part of that???


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

cane76 said:


> Well if thats a jab at me,its wrong,i believe blue bulls diseale is worthy of being bred,reason being he's a working dog that gets work,thats all it takes,it isnt brain surgery.Dont breed for working stock and focus only on size and color then yes cull them all,the pounds and back yards of the irresponsable are already over flowing with useless,neglegted bullys bred for all the wrong reasons,why incourage more?


I didn't drop anyones name. Hell, I even agree with what you posted right there. There should be more focus on function in today's bullies. There is a right way to breed these dogs. They aren't going to compare to the APBT performance wise but they can show athletic ability. I can post up several examples if need be.


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## Ncprisonguard (Jan 19, 2009)

I'll attempt to be less negative... I call a good looking bully and good looking bully when I see one.


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## Bleu Clair (Jun 14, 2008)

Ncprisonguard said:


> I am all for people having their bullies and being proud of them... so long as they call them Am. Bullies.. and not pit bulls or APBTs. They aren't my cup of tea... and as far as negative comments go. If you post a picture of your dog or a pedigree of your dog then am I wrong to think you want people's honest reactions? I mean if its the mood of this forum not to post a reaction you have to someone's picture that they ask for opinions on then someone say so and I'll do whatever....


I'm all for people with AmBullies calling them AmBullies too, but there are three walks of people, those with AmBullies who call them such, those who hang onto the APBT name and those who really don't know any better (they go by what they were told their dog was). This poster already knows their dog is an AmBully. They didn't ask your opinion of the AmBully, all they wanted to know was whether there would be problems due to inbreeding and what we thought of the bloodlines. They didn't say they were APBT bloodlines, they asked what we thought of their AmBully's bloodlines.

The AmBully topic has been beaten to death on this and every other forum. Not all AmBully owners are the same, a lot of us know that there are major problems with this breed and would like to see it end just as much as everyone else. I wasn't saying you were wrong in saying how you feel though, you have the right to your opinion. I was just backing up what MADbood said about this board being for both is all. That's why I posted the  at the end.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

Ncprisonguard said:


> I'll attempt to be less negative... I call a good looking bully and good looking bully when I see one.


How's this for good looking???

















[/QUOTE]


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

is that second pic a dog named mega?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Bleu Clair said:


> The AmBully topic has been beaten to death on this and every other forum. Not all AmBully owners are the same, a lot of us know that there are major problems with this breed and would like to see it end just as much as everyone else.


But the topic will continue,simply because it is the first type of dog people interested in a pit bull type are attracted to,as you will see,many folks start out with a few bully's then get rid of them for a more athletic type of"pit bull" once they've done there research.One thing is certain,health issue's exist in every breed that's main purpose for being is over done and exaggerated aesthetic,take the Neapolitan mastiff,English bull dog,johnson ab,just add the american bully to that list.
Health issues wont disappear until breeding practices and public taste move from exaggerated features to health and ability.And the breeding practices will remain until that time because that's what brings in the bacon,giant heads,exotic colors wide chest[overly so].suffice it to say more than half of these dogs are cross bred yet still advertised as the ultimate apbt,until that stops why should the public scrutiny stop,since it is a bold face lie it should be called as such.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

wheezie said:


> is that second pic a dog named mega?


Her name is Thunder...first dog is Poison and the last dog is Bruno


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

If a bully is bred to be functional and it works than it's a functional working bully ... I personally don't agree with breeding christmas decorations with no other purpose or function. Bully breeder's need to step up their game and go back to the basics function and working ability everything else will fall into place there after JMO.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

I personally think that the bully could use more APBT traits...at least the extreme ones. I always liked the AmBully but felt there was a missing ingredient so to speak. More and more folks are breeding these traits back into the bully. Of course it's nothing that hasn't been done before....look at Watchdog Kennels. The dogs must compliment each other though. Some bullies are linebred too much and are not good candidates.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

MADBood said:


> I personally think that the bully could use more APBT traits...at least the extreme ones. I always liked the AmBully but felt there was a missing ingredient so to speak. More and more folks are breeding these traits back into the bully. Of course it's nothing that hasn't been done before....look at Watchdog Kennels. The dogs must compliment each other though. Some bullies are linebred too much and are not good candidates.


If the breeder's went back to the standards of the OLD razor's edge or watchdog you would see some more apbt traits in these dogs today. the problem is breeder's stopped caring about function and working ability that is why you have so much inconsistency in today's American bully's. I just think am-bully breeder's need to come together for the good of the breed. Start looking at the problem and fix it. It can be done. But in order for this to happen you have to start breeding for the right reasons vs the wrong reasons.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

even old watch dog stuff is shrowded in controvery


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## smith family kennels (Jan 10, 2009)

i agree totally


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## smith family kennels (Jan 10, 2009)

I agree totally about bully breeders. I know a few that live near me that have no clue its all about how they can get them to look not about the breed


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

wheezie said:


> even old watch dog stuff is shrowded in controvery


That may be true but I have seen some of the older watchdog and those dogs were bred to working standards and they worked some were larger but they still worked and were functional ... You can see how this line went from a working line once upon a time to a completely different line of dogs who are clearly not bred for function or working ability today.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> I just think am-bully breeder's need to come together for the good of the breed. Start looking at the problem and fix it. It can be done. But in order for this to happen you have to start breeding for the right reasons vs the wrong reasons.


We already have  ...it's not going to happen overnight, though.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

MADBood said:


> We already have  ...it's not going to happen overnight, though.


I know that it takes time ... But I haven't met too many of those breeder's I would love to see more of them around . Hopefully that will be the turn around for the breed itself.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

everytime i go to a bully forum all i see is a bunch of slopy dogs and shit ton of poor breedings.... and a small handfull of nice dogs


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

wheezie said:


> even old watch dog stuff is shrowded in controvery


hell, there are always going to be those so called "purist" that will down another man's hard work...nothing new under the sun. I like what I see in my two pups with TNT...which is basically Watchdog anyways..not like this newer crap that muggleston produces.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Anyone up for a game of horse?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

If the dogs work then who cares about color and sh#@,it's when that is the breeders only goal that the problems begin,i like big working dogs of molosser type and could care less if they are blue or what ever,as long as it's a good example of a working dog.thats what should matter.Maybe more bully's can work,it's the owners with the lack of desire to do so with there dogs,jmo.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

wheezie said:


> everytime i go to a bully forum all i see is a bunch of slopy dogs and shit ton of poor breedings.... and a small handfull of nice dogs


Isn't it that way with the APBT as well? That's what makes the good ones special.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

cane76 said:


> If the dogs work then who cares about color and sh#@,it's when that is the breeders only goal that the problems begin,i like big working dogs of molosser type and could care less if they are blue or what ever,as long as it's a good example of a working dog.thats what should matter.Maybe more bully's can work,it's the owners with the lack of desire to do so with there dogs,jmo.


:goodpost:


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

even poorly bred APBT's dont have half the health problems that most am bully breeders select and actually breed for


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

MADBood said:


> hell, there are always going to be those so called "purist" that will down another man's hard work...nothing new under the sun. I like what I see in my two pups with TNT...which is basically Watchdog anyways..not like this newer crap that muggleston produces.


Casey Cotourie is selling off his ab registry and every thing last time i checked,hard times all around.maybe he's leaviving the dog game.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

wheezie said:


> even poorly bred APBT's dont have half the health problems that most am bully breeders select and actually breed for


Generally speaking...yes you are correct. It is a working project but there are those that do have a goal other than aesthetics. The American Bully needs much improvement, IMO.

The American Bully catches more heat than any other breed out there. They are bred for companionship and style, not performance like the APBT. You can thank the general public for that. Supply and Demand. Not all of us bully owners/breeders cater to fads or public demand, that's the point I'm trying to make. Believe me, I've heard it all before...why breed APBT to a bully?...it's not improving the APBT...blah blah. The APBT doesn't need improving, at least the selectively bred ones...it's the bully that needs improvement. It's not like everyone needs a gamebred dog, anyways, at least not this day in time but it shouldn't be an excuse for bully breeders to lack on function nor health...I agree.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

cane76 said:


> Casey Cotourie is selling off his ab registry and every thing last time i checked,hard times all around.maybe he's leaviving the dog game.


I don't see your point. He went in a different direction for his own reasons. That shouldn't take away from some of the older stuff that came off his yard. Lots of folks use TNT(Watchdog) in thier pulling lines and have had great success.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i dont blame the general public i blame those who supply the public.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

wheezie said:


> i dont blame the general public i blame those who supply the public.


They wouldn't breed them if they couldn't sell them. Yeah, it's wrong on alot of levels but they'll never quit until people wise up.


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## Bleu Clair (Jun 14, 2008)

cane76 said:


> But the topic will continue,simply because it is the first type of dog people interested in a pit bull type are attracted to,as you will see,many folks start out with a few bully's then get rid of them for a more athletic type of"pit bull" once they've done there research.One thing is certain,health issue's exist in every breed that's main purpose for being is over done and exaggerated aesthetic,take the Neapolitan mastiff,English bull dog,johnson ab,just add the american bully to that list.
> Health issues wont disappear until breeding practices and public taste move from exaggerated features to health and ability.And the breeding practices will remain until that time because that's what brings in the bacon,giant heads,exotic colors wide chest[overly so].suffice it to say more than half of these dogs are cross bred yet still advertised as the ultimate apbt,until that stops why should the public scrutiny stop,since it is a bold face lie it should be called as such.


I agree with everything you're saying and I know there's gonna be public scrutiny, but like I stated, this thread started out as nothing to do with whether or not people liked AmBullies. This person wasn't denying their dog was an AmBully....they were simply asking what people thought about their AmBully's bloodlines and inbreeding. It would be like me saying to someone who was inquiring about how their Lhasa Apso was bred, "I don't like Lhasas, spay/neuter your dog, just don't call your Lhasa a Shih Tzu and besides, is their really a best when it comes to the Lhasa?" For reference, many BYBs have sold their Lhasas as Shih Tzus (and many are mixes of each other) because Shih Tzus are believed to be better in temperament than the Lhasa and these days many look alike. I could totally understand Ncprisonguard voicing his dislike of the breed if it was a topic on what people thought about AmBullies, but it wasn't. What's the point in giving answers to something that has nothing to do with what was being stated or asked? I can understand a bold face lie being called as such, but the poster wasn't lying about anything.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

MADBood said:


> I don't see your point. He went in a different direction for his own reasons. That shouldn't take away from some of the older stuff that came off his yard. Lots of folks use TNT(Watchdog) in thier pulling lines and have had great success.


My point being,he's selling off his ab stuff now too,thats it.
He started in the apbt world,left too the ab world for his own reasons,one can only speculate,and now he's leaving the ab world it appears[also when i say ab,i dont mean american bully].


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Bleu Clair said:


> I agree with everything you're saying and I know there's gonna be public scrutiny, but like I stated, this thread started out as nothing to do with whether or not people liked AmBullies. This person wasn't denying their dog was an AmBully....they were simply asking what people thought about their AmBully's bloodlines and inbreeding. It would be like me saying to someone who was inquiring about how their Lhasa Apso was bred, "I don't like Lhasas, spay/neuter your dog, just don't call your Lhasa a Shih Tzu and besides, is their really a best when it comes to the Lhasa?" For reference, many BYBs have sold their Lhasas as Shih Tzus (and many are mixes of each other) because Shih Tzus are believed to be better in temperament than the Lhasa and these days many look alike. I could totally understand Ncprisonguard voicing his dislike of the breed if it was a topic on what people thought about AmBullies, but it wasn't. What's the point in giving answers to something that has nothing to do with what was being stated or asked? I can understand a bold face lie being called as such, but the poster wasn't lying about anything.


Im just replying to other post's,when the american bully or a american bully pedigree is brought up it opens the doors of opinion.
If im the one who took this thread off track i appoligize,but i do not believe i am the one soooo.


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## jkoo1982 (Jan 3, 2009)

*Dang...*

Thanks for your replies and your input, but to be honest everything that was discussed is way over my head. I just wanted to know if I should be concerned with what I thought was considered inbreeding. I've looked up line breeding, and I guess it's a common practice? And I guess my dog is an Am Bully. From what I've read in this thread, people don't seem to have much love for my dog's breed. May I ask why? And exactly what is the difference? Also, so I can expect my puppy to have health problems in the future? Anyhow, I love my new dog and I'd like to learn more about his breed. Thanks


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## Bleu Clair (Jun 14, 2008)

cane76 said:


> Im just replying to other post's,when the american bully or a american bully pedigree is brought up it opens the doors of opinion.
> If im the one who took this thread off track i appoligize,but i do not believe i am the one soooo.


Oh no, I don't think you took the thread off track at all. The thread went off track before you said anything. I was just jibber jabbering over why I stated what I did and went a bit overboard in explaining what you quoted me saying I guess. I'm sorry. I don't want you to think I was upset with you, I wasn't .


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## koa22 (Jan 21, 2009)

you know I have seen the same people post in every post about bully's and they always have to tell everyone what they think... WHY we get the point... don't bash what people have or want... Why do mod's let this keep going on???


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

cane76 said:


> My point being,he's selling off his ab stuff now too,thats it.
> He started in the apbt world,left too the ab world for his own reasons,one can only speculate,and now he's leaving the ab world it appears[also when i say ab,i dont mean american bully].


oh, ok. who knows why the man went to ABs? Maybe he felt that he would have more success with the ABs since they are a working breed as well. like you said....we can only speculate.



koa22 said:


> you know I have seen the same people post in every post about bully's and they always have to tell everyone what they think... WHY we get the point... don't bash what people have or want... Why do mod's let this keep going on???


Most of the mods are biased to the APBTs...which is fine, I like them more too, but this is a place for both breeds. If you make this an APBT board only, I would understand. What good are rules if they aren't followed by everyone?


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

jkoo1982 said:


> Thanks for your replies and your input, but to be honest everything that was discussed is way over my head. I just wanted to know if I should be concerned with what I thought was considered inbreeding. I've looked up line breeding, and I guess it's a common practice? And I guess my dog is an Am Bully. From what I've read in this thread, people don't seem to have much love for my dog's breed. May I ask why? And exactly what is the difference? Also, so I can expect my puppy to have health problems in the future? Anyhow, I love my new dog and I'd like to learn more about his breed. Thanks


The different between line breeding and in breeding is:

Inbreeding is brother bred to sister or offspring bred back to mom or dad

Linebreeding is taking a dog back to a certain dog further back in it's history (grandfather or great great grandfather)

It's still a fine line, but they do this to preserve certain traits from great dogs... when you do line or inbreeding you can't guarantee to preserve just the trait that you want... you get the whole package and both the positive traits and negative traits are bred into the new generation x2,x3 times. By traits I mean (color, personality, conformation, health issues).

Alot of people have hard feelings not neccesarily to the dogs themselves, but the breeders who passed their bullies off as American Pitbull Terriers. They are two different cups of tea. Bullys are often not very atheletic... They were bred to be more of a companion dog instead of an athlete (they are not bred with performance in "box" in mind)... and they often lack the drive that so many APBT owners desire for the activities they participate in. APBTs are a slim and sleek dog ... Bullies are bulkier.

As far as health issues go you're going to have to find someone to look at your pedigree who really knows bullys to see what runs within your pups family gene pool. Some breeds are more predispositioned to have certain health issues, some lines more than others...it all depends on the actual dogs that are in your pups family tree.

I hope this helps some! I believe MadBood helped me with the pedigree of the pups that indi is going to have so that I could weigh my decision on whether or not the breeding was a sound decision. Indi in my avatar is a Razors Edge female who has a couple of the dogs in her pedigree that you listed.


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## jkoo1982 (Jan 3, 2009)

NEELA said:


> The different between line breeding and in breeding is:
> 
> Inbreeding is brother bred to sister or offspring bred back to mom or dad
> 
> ...


Thank you Neela your reply was really helpful. I didn't know the difference between an APBT or bully before I purchased my pup. Now that I know, I wanted a bully all along and I'm very happy with him. So there can be a possibility of health problems due to the line breeding and if so because of the the line breeding the problems will be worse? Is there a way I can get a complete health test for him to find out? And if so where (a vet I assume?) and what does that usually run? Also, I really like Indi she's a great looking dog. What style of earcrop would that be described as? Could you post a bigger pic please? My pup goes in for his earcrop on 2/12 and I'm looking for a nice picture to go off. Thanks!


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

jkoo1982 said:


> Thank you Neela your reply was really helpful. I didn't know the difference between an APBT or bully before I purchased my pup. Now that I know, I wanted a bully all along and I'm very happy with him. So there can be a possibility of health problems due to the line breeding and if so because of the the line breeding the problems will be worse? Is there a way I can get a complete health test for him to find out? And if so where (a vet I assume?) and what does that usually run? Also, I really like Indi she's a great looking dog. What style of earcrop would that be described as? Could you post a bigger pic please? My pup goes in for his earcrop on 2/12 and I'm looking for a nice picture to go off. Thanks!


Honestly, time will tell you what your pups issues are if anything at all... I wouldn't be concerned about your pup until he shows some signs himself... genetic health issues can arrise throughout the entire life of your dog depending on what they are... The best way to steer clear of life long expensive veterinary care is to purchase dogs from reputable breeders who health test (not just a check up at the vet) and wait until their breeding stock is of appropriate age (2 years) to breed with a solid knowledge of the litters pedigree. even then it's not a 100% guarantee.

Dogs are usually evaluated for hip and elbow displaysia about 2 years of age but severe cases can show up in a pup as young as 6 weeks... this is very costly... i just spent close to 500 at the vet for this one test (because I'm breeding indi I want to make sure that I'm doing the best not to reproduce this very common but terribly painful disease)

they can form allergies throughout their whole lives,

you can look for cataracts to form around 5-7 years old (my mom had a cocker spaniel who started developing them at 2)

heart murmurs are ruled out by your vet at his first pup visit, your vet also will listen to the lungs at that time for their resting breathing pattern.

Kjoo PM me your email adress and I'll send you some better photos of Indi. I believe her crop is the battle crop...not sure though! lol i just brought in photos to my vet!


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