# REMEMBER THE POSSIBLE APT. FIGHTERS THREAD I STARTED?



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Turns out I wasn't exactly wrong.

I talked today with an acquaintance(who was there at the time) of the punk kids (the two who were instigating the dog) they actually wanted to train him to fight.(the dog owner will not fight him however, but they are still trying to convince him to)

They have dogs they fight. The Apt. manager was out there when we were talking about this,and she said the dog cannot stay here any more,if they are going to have these punks here,teaching it to be mean.

I don;'t think we'll see these people anymore. I'm pretty sure he will choose his dog over his "friends"

My question is now that I know these other people have dogs they train to fight, what should I do?

It was only word of mouth,but I know from what he told me,it's pretty much the truth.(he talked about the steroids they feed the dogs etc)

Should I try and get him to report it? He's a fan of these dogs,and hates what's going on,but he's to scared to do anything.

My heart is hurting right now,knowing this is happening so close to home. I told him about the $5000 reward for leads to potential dog fighting rings,so hope maybe that will give him more of a boost in the right direction.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Hmm.. I'm not really sure what to say here. If you do try to convince him to call in, I'd be very careful about it as it may come back on you somehow. But, at the same time, nobody likes a snitch, and if he offers up info that only the people involved would know, they'll know he snitched, and may do something to harm him, his dog, or the people associated with him, like you. I would just leave it alone and not involve myself in these issues if I were you. Retaliation can be brutal, and get really ugly. But, that's just my opinion.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

You shouldn't do anything. Believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see. Unless you witness or hear something firsthand then I'd stay out of it. That is just my opinion. Dog fighting accusations are serious. Floyd Boudreaux was accused of dog fighting a few years ago, his property raided, and all of his dogs put to sleep. In this case, police raided the Boudreaux's property, and seized 57 'pit bulls' that were believed to be used for dog fighting. Within 24 hours of the raid, all 57 dogs were euthanized by the Louisiana SPCA.
Later he was found not guilty on all charges but all his dogs, including the infamous Eli bloodline, were all gone. 
Now, that isn't exactly the same thing but my point is all it took was one person saying they seen and heard something that didn't exist and Boudreaux lost everything. 
So if it were me I wouldn't do anything unless I had solid proof and more to back it up.
Good luck....


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Well being that I am from the roughest parts of Vegas I am a little more willing to take risks like this without hesitation. I would at least talk to him a bit about it but dont be too pushy since he may instead turn on you. Maybe a little here and there...

But before doing any of that I would have my 9mm and my CCD and be carrying anywhere I go...

Just my opinion though...


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

I agree with ladypit just dont get involved, most of these thug guys are not as hard core as you think, they may roll their dogs here and there but when I was living in the ghetto we always had these guys who "looked" to be fighters lol they would roll their dogs in the street, sometimes the dogs would fight some times they humped each other and then go home the dogs were not as hurt as a human would have been had they snitched KWIM? You cant save the world and have to protect yourself and your family, try not to worry about what is going on over the fence too much leave that to the authorities.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Like I said before mind your own business, you have no proof just word of mouth..... You have no business getting involved unless you actually saw them fight the dogs. again it is not against the law to teach the dogs to be mean, it may not be morally right but not against the law. Again ppl always want to stick their nose where it does not belong, your APT manager already took care of it, drop it. JMO


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> Like I said before mind your own business, you have no proof just word of mouth..... You have no business getting involved unless you actually saw them fight the dogs. again it is not against the law to teach the dogs to be mean, it may not be morally right but not against the law. *Again ppl always want to stick their nose where it does not belong,* your APT manager already took care of it, drop it. JMO


Lisa its the 5,000 dollar reward for some (not saying it is the case here) but this is why so many people try to turn in dog fighters I mean if they arent nothing lost to the reporter unless they are found out and if they are 5,000 dollars in your pocket


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

They're not just teaching them to be mean,they're fighting them.
But I will take the advice and stay out of it. I'm just worried that peer pressure might get the better of him.
You're right. My Apt. manager took care of it,and now that she knows,she's going to keep an eye out.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Xiahko said:


> They're not just teaching them to be mean,they're fighting them.
> But I will take the advice and stay out of it. I'm just worried that peer pressure might get the better of him.


And if it does he will either loose a dog and learn his lesson or win, catch the bug and get caught doing bigger things.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

gamer,you're right. I just get so angry when I hear s&^%^ like this.

But I guess you can't save em all, even though I'd like to.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

See that 5,000 reward is the problem. Just reporting someone for fighting can get all their dogs killed if they are innocent and usually they can only really catch you for fighting if your caught in the act. But lets say you reported someone and they raided the house, they find break sticks, tired mills, supplements, antibiotics, medical supplies to stitch up dogs, Books/videos about historical dog fighting, have multiple DA APBT's, and so on. Should that be enough to convict some of of dog fighting?

I am asking this of the OP, does that sound like they are fighting dogs?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Xiahko said:


> gamer,you're right. I just get so angry when I hear s&^%^ like this.
> 
> But I guess you can't save em all, even though I'd like to.


I know you care but gear your drive towards helping transport dogs or educating children about the importance of responsible pet ownership. Start a pay to spay program in your area for pit bulls.

I may catch flack for this but a dog fight is not the worse thing to happen to a breed that likes to fight, has been bred to fight and enjoy it. Sure they get banged up so do boxers but they still enjoy it unless someone is fighting a cur. You see the outlawing of organized dog fighting has actually done the breed more harm then good if that makes sense.


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## Cujo's Mom (Feb 3, 2010)

Ok, Yes snitches get do get stitches, but you can always do it anonymously JMO. If you know they are definitely fighting these poor dogs I would do it, but then again everyone is different.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Cujo's Mom said:


> Ok, Yes snitches get do get stitches, but you can always do it anonymously JMO. If you know they are definitely fighting these poor dogs I would do it, but then again everyone is different.


Well it is an apt complex so the removal of one fighting dog ( alleged) could cause every one in that complex to have to get rid of their pit bulls. We always have to think what repercussion can my actions have.

Also nothing is ever anonymous heck they could be on this forum.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> You shouldn't do anything. Believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see. Unless you witness or hear something firsthand then I'd stay out of it. That is just my opinion. Dog fighting accusations are serious. Floyd Boudreaux was accused of dog fighting a few years ago, his property raided, and all of his dogs put to sleep. In this case, police raided the Boudreaux's property, and seized 57 'pit bulls' that were believed to be used for dog fighting. Within 24 hours of the raid, all 57 dogs were euthanized by the Louisiana SPCA.
> Later he was found not guilty on all charges but all his dogs, including the infamous Eli bloodline, were all gone.
> Now, that isn't exactly the same thing but my point is all it took was one person saying they seen and heard something that didn't exist and Boudreaux lost everything.
> So if it were me I wouldn't do anything unless I had solid proof and more to back it up.
> Good luck....





performanceknls said:


> Like I said before mind your own business, you have no proof just word of mouth..... You have no business getting involved unless you actually saw them fight the dogs. again it is not against the law to teach the dogs to be mean, it may not be morally right but not against the law. Again ppl always want to stick their nose where it does not belong, your APT manager already took care of it, drop it. JMO


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I really want to know if these people that are saying report it and the OP think the things I mentioned above are really what proves ppl are dog fighting. I am not trying to be a butt I really want to understand what they think makes ppl dog fighters. This is extremely important info for all pit bull owners to know. So does having these items mean for sure you are a dog fighter? Because these are the thing the AC look for but I want to know the OP and ppl who say report it if this is what they agree with.
If they find break sticks, tired mills, supplements, antibiotics, medical supplies to stitch up dogs, Books/videos about historical dog fighting, have multiple DA APBT's, and so on. Should that be enough to convict some of of dog fighting?


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

No. I know for a fact,that many people have tread mills and such to exercise there dogs.

You can't really know a dog fighter unless you see them fight the dog.

This is still getting pounded into my brain. But I do know this. I have actually been looking into a TM for my dog.

I have also looked into the fighting aspect of these dogs,to try and understand a bit more...But I just can't. I wont ever understand why people do it.

I cant even call it a sport.


What if all the dogs had horrid scars and were malnourished,and they had all the stated equipment. Then they would be fighters correct? maybe?

However my first reaction would be to think they were fighting the dog. But that's what society has done as well to this breed.

You just never know. So don't go around convicting the innocent. I'll just try and stay out of it from now on,unless I actually see them fight their dogs.
Which God forbid i wont.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Xiahko said:


> No. I know for a fact,that many people have tread mills and such to exercise there dogs.
> 
> You can't really know a dog fighter unless you see them fight the dog.
> 
> ...


Not really maybe their kennel had whip worm go around that would make the dogs look horrible and the scars maybe some go their heads stuck in a chain link fence, maybe a few got off chains and caused a fight, maybe they are hunting dogs for badger and their faces are scared from fighting in a hole with a mean animal. See anything can look bad if you are looking for the bad.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

You have a point.
Bruno has scars as well(don;t know from what,cause he was a stray) but everyone asks if he was used for fighting before.

I tell them I don;t know,he could have been,but it could have also been from a fence as well.

I guess you never know. I'm pretty sure Bruno's were from another dog though,big ones on his hind legs and chest,and a big one on his nose to his lip.

But it looks like to me, he was a naughty puppy,and pissed off an older dog.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

You know. now that I think of it, I bet people thought I fought Bruno when I first got him.

he was skin and bones,had a horrid sinus infection,that made him have snot on his nose all the time,and then he had the scars....

He was so skinny from all the tummy parasites he had,and the horrid diarrhea.

I think this is why it's so hard to catch the dog fighters huh. 

It's just to organized.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Now if you came to my house that is exactly the kinds of things your would find and my dogs are show weight and what some considered to be thin and I have some heavily scared dogs from nothing more that yard accidents nd the fact I have over 20 dogs here right now. Oh I have a bait dog, that would be General! LMAO
So yeah my point is you can not always tell if someone is fighting.

Now I have no problem with dog fighting pre 1976 dog fighting ban. Most of the dogs were taken care of better than most ppl on this forum take care of their dogs. The dogs were never forced to fight this is what they were bred to do it is no difference than sending a terrier down a hole to face off a bagger.
Now back when dog fighting was legal and when ppl had respect for the dogs there were rule. No dog was forced to fight, if a dog did not want to fight, backed off, or rolled over, it was considered a cur and the fight stopped. These dogs were not fought to the death or even destroyed if they were curs. Now some dogs were PTS if they did not work out but there were historical producers that were curs. If you look at the dogs of the past do you see disfigurements or dogs that are really that horribly scared? No you don't that is because they they had rules and the dogs were properly broken apart.
You do not see chinaman or jocko dogs with ears torn off or disfigured, you ever wonder why??

Now what I do not agree with and what you see in the media today is all the gangster punks like the guys in your apt who think it is cool to fight dogs, they do not take care of them, they let them tear each other apart. They let them fight to the death or kill the other dog if it curs out, and I could go on and on about how they do these dogs a disservice. That is what the media wants you to think dog fighting is about but these are no good punks who have no clue what they are doing and gave this breed this horrible stigma in the media.

Do more research about the breed and about what made these dogs what they are today and you will find it is not at all what you thought it was. I do not condone dog fighting as it is illegal but pre 1976 it was not the same as you see on tv today.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I actually have looked into the pre dog fighting,and I agree,where as I don;t condone or really like the idea,at least there were rules,and safety procedures for the dogs.

It also wasn't insecure punk @#[email protected]$# kids using animals to fight their own battles.
it's like the dog fighting they started now in Japan.
there are rules,and the dogs hardly ever get injured to the point of death.
It's almost like sumo wrestling from what I hear. one dog crosses over the line,the game is over.

That was a rule way back when too wasn't it?

And you're right, you never see the Pits of the past with horrible injuries. Wasn't it the only reason they put down one of their fighters was if it showed HA?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Yes if a dog is moving away from the fight and crosses a certain point it is called a scratch and the dogs were reset or the fight was stopped.

Yes most dogmen would put a HA dog down or possible even the loser of a fight. It was quick and painless not the brutal ways you see it done now. No need to be cruel to put a dog down, a bullet is all it takes to do it humanly.

Now I am sure you can dig up some cruelty even back pre 1976 but that was not the norm.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Oh I;m sure about that. As long as there have been animals and humans together,there have been cruelty cases. It's just the sad fact of life.


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## jayandlacy (Sep 21, 2009)

My puppy has some scarring going on from itching himself so bad from an allergy to the dang pollen, now hes on benadryl and not itching like he was but here the pollen was so very bad earlier in the summer. I am always afraid someone will see him and think "fighting" cuz of the scars, but I'm sure they'll clear up in time to almost nothing. 

I am someone that has a difficult time biting my tongue when I see wrong. I am constantly weighing the benefits of sayin or not sayin something to peoples whose business is not necassarily my direct business. It is difficult to not try and do something when you know that people are doing wrong, especially to a dog that is a dog and can't say no, or know that things are wrong that they are doing. Dog fighting makes me sick. Literally, this entire post has about made me sick. I would say, stay out of it until you have solid proof, meaning, know when there will be a fight? Know where ne of these little punk boys lives? Or where they keep the dogs? ugh. Some peoples kids...IDk


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Just a question. If the OP does see these punks fighting, or organizing a fight, then should she say something? I mean the ramifications are still going to be the same, she will still be considered a snitch, dogs may be banned at said complex, etc. How far does it have to go? Lisa states that it is the punks of today that have marred the fighting game of yesteryear, which I agree with, and yet no one wants to put these punks in there place? I don't understand. It's like letting a drunk get in a car and kill someone then report he was drunk, when it should have been reported when he couldn't find the keyhole in his car door! Now, I agree with Lisa that the fighting game was more honorable back in the day and had rules that were followed lest you be shamed among the other bulldoggers. But some did die in the pit, or out of the pit due to shock. There were "bonebreakers" back then as well. Some of the "losers" weren't particularly held in high favor either...draw your own conclusions there. And as far as "enjoying" the fighting, well they enjoyed pleasing their owners and probably would jump off a roof to make them happy. I'm sure that some pit bulls did enjoy the fight to a certain point, but once that line was crossed, they were fighting for their life, and to line their owners pockets. Not real fun anymore


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I don;t think I'll have an issue with Bruno getting banned from here. He has the Apt. Manager wrapped around his finger.
Just today,He was hot,so she got him some water with ice in it,and he dumped it over(doesn't like stuff floating in his water) so she went back and got him some without ice,but he dumped that over too.
The guy I was talking with(who used to have a pit) Told Bruno to stop being a jerk,and the manager got all defensive telling him Bruno wasn't a jerk,and that she would defend him against anything. 
Even a dog attack(Had to complain about a min-pin who runs around with no leash,that Bruno wants to eat).
She said she wouldn't blame Bruno,and that since Bruno is always leashed,and the other one isn't it would be the other dogs problem.
She also said she hopes he eats it. She hates the small yippy dogs.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Michael Vick took a plea deal because of the Military Officers and Police Officers involved in "his alledged ring".. Involved, not undercover... You don't think the man who signs his check didn't attend or know, (laughter) that will be your little secret. Just surfing court dockets, its all PUBLIC now mind you  Instead we just listen to the T.V. they wouldn't lie or misinform us...

Fighting chickens in HI and Okla I know its the men that sit behind desks and call shots in the day for us to live by, that also fund the underground shot callers..

When they say all calls are anonymous, thats BOGUS, you pick up your reward from a tellar at a bank usually with code word, mind you its a small world and you just got caught on camera collecting reward money for snitching.

I can't stand ignorant, a mean dog is not a fighting dog.. People just need to stop, its because of those type of people I wish they would ratify dog fighting, and make it where people had to have licenses to own game dogs and they all should be small under 35lbs with all the rules and the ref with a vet on standby, make it where the ELITE dogmen are the only ones who can own a game dog. Instead of every one from every city, hood, and metro training dogs to be mean... I know Im like so far off most peoples way of thinking, but thats just logical to me.. The police promoted contested dog matches when these guys all got started here, and boxing, well boxing is legal now and just as dangerous. (game dogs like to squab, so that YOU HAVE TO train a dog to fight crap is for the birds) so lets honor the sporting dog in that fashion it is not a blood sport.

Two dumba$ses training dogs to be mean so they attack everyones dog, is the POPULOUS, and thats a problem. EXAMPLE: You know MOST dogs made MEAN or taught to be a k9 or protection dog have been done so with an agitator with a stick? Because the MEDIA says its smart to do so, everyone walks around with a dmn stick in their hand, (chuckles) thats just asking for any child or civillian walking by with a stick to get GOT. WELL trainning a dog to be DA, its just genius... 
THe system sucks and you'll end up a victim, its bad enough being in a small confined situation like that, WATCH YOUR DOG... Don't think they haven't thought about taking it, I had a couple of nukkalheads throw a log through my window in an attempt to steal my dog Hooch, after he already bit one of them when they kicked in my apartment door to steal him, not knowing he was k9 trained, and got gaffled, all while I was at work, I had blood from my front door to the side walk.. So when they broke my bay window and that dog come out fired up, there wasn't nothing but the lingering smell of a black and mild and sweaty crackheads... LOL

I know the "right" thing to do is to SNITCH or report this activity, but the POLICE will not protect YOU, they will clean up the crime scene and find the perp.. _ Watch your dog, and mind your business, call the PO if they start to appear around YOUR home for unwarranted reasons, matter a fact quit talking about it to so many people in your area, because those might be the friends of friends of friends which is how you know what you know now_


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Tell you the truth,I'm always worried about Bruno being dog napped,he's so well liked,that I'm afraid.
However he IS fixed,so that lessens his chances of being stolen,but they could want to steal him to fight.
I'm lucky the people here know Bruno,and would question anyone else they saw with my dog,that wasn't me.
Also being this close to people,and on the second floor,they would be stupid to try anything that dumb,plush they would have to unlock Bruno from his crate too.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Unfortunately, those are some slippery rocks to be treading on. The rights of all pit bull fanciers to even own a pit bull is then handed to the street thugs, and I don't feel comfortable with them controlling the reigns. Waiting around for their mistakes only increases the likelihood of reprimands by John Q Public, which won't be good. We all have to realize that a large sector of the public truely hates our breed, and definitely has a disdain for fighting them. This isn't pre 1976, pit bulls are everywhere and everything has evolved, including the use of the APBT. Thinking otherwise is living in the past. We all know that this breed can become a media monster real quickly and that's why it is so important to present them favorably....and that has become the APBT's toughest fight. It's a game that we have to play to keep our dogs, yet there are some that are breaking the rules that could cost us all. I, for one, don't like the "mind your own business" approach. This is my/our business! Just my 2 cents of course


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

You see, its like living more like the Native Americans and ancient Hebrews and other tribes, that lived in balance with the Earth for over 2000yrs, then OUR industrial capitalist and DISPOSABLE way of life evolve only to destroy our mother our Earth in less than 200 yrs. NOOOOoooo... If we were all responcible for the food we ate, the life we take to eat food on a plate, we would only take what we need, thats just the food, we have had solar technology since the space race, if we were really green there would be no questioning we would already be living green, BUT IT MAKES tender foot bleeding hearts SAD and we have to protect their FEELINGS and give them a soft place to sitdown, no one wants CHANGE as much as they want it because it requires MORE accountablity or less GOVERNMENT INFLUENCE.. The dogs that are legends of the men we call legends were the APBT in its purest most renouned and sought after form, then in the SAME sense as we should be living more like Native mericans, we should also be doing the same as the old dogmen with our dogs.. Our police should promote or add the same protection as boxing events as they evolved parallel to each other.. There would be a whole world of crime taken away, just have to monitor licensed dog owners and their humane condidtions. BUT THATs ME, I call everyone out even myself and expect them to live the genuine truth... call a spade a spade.. Being a humaniac is not being humane. People are nuts and forget the closest hypocrite can be found just by looking in the mirror.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Like PETA 8D(God I hate them)


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

This convo is beginning to drift toward the political arena, but I understand what you are stating about "simpler times". However, it is in our nature to behave the way you have portrayed. We are the ultimate virus; seek a host, feed, reproduce, destroy and migrate. As you have said, the N. American Indians can attest to this. Now, I do not believe that all those who act in a humane fashion should be labeled as something ugly. The balance that you talk about can only exist when the two opposing forces accept eachother's space. It becomes a system of checks and balances, so to speak. Without humane practices look at where we would be in the psychological fields, in our justice system, in our working conditions, etc. Can humanity be abused, you bet. I don't disagree with you there but without it you, and I, would be working in some mine twelve hours a day waiting for our two minute break instead of sitting in the comfort of our homes playing on the internet. Wasn't this a dog topic just a few threads ago LOL!!!! Always good talking with you Firehazard, I respect your views and find myself in agreeance on occasion, but that darn Devil's Advocate is a role that I relish


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

My threads never do stay on topic... XD


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> Now if you came to my house that is exactly the kinds of things your would find and my dogs are show weight and what some considered to be thin and I have some heavily scared dogs from nothing more that yard accidents nd the fact I have over 20 dogs here right now. Oh I have a bait dog, that would be General! LMAO
> So yeah my point is you can not always tell if someone is fighting.
> 
> Now I have no problem with dog fighting pre 1976 dog fighting ban. Most of the dogs were taken care of better than most ppl on this forum take care of their dogs. The dogs were never forced to fight this is what they were bred to do it is no difference than sending a terrier down a hole to face off a bagger.
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:
:thumbsup:
Absolutely agreed! The old dog men had a certain respect for their dogs, as many of their best fighting dogs were also family pets. An example of just how little people know about dog fighting history, which I believe is essential to know if you are going to own a pit bull, can be found on the ASPCA website. 
*



Q. Why Do Fighting Dogs Have Their Ears Cropped and Tails Docked?

Fighting dogs used by all types of fighters usually have their ears cropped and tails docked close to their bodies. This serves two purposes. First, it limits the number of areas of the body that another dog might grab onto in a fight, and second, it makes it more difficult for other dogs to read the animal's mood and intentions through the normal body language cues dogs use to avoid aggressive encounters.

Many fighters perform this cropping/docking themselves, using crude and inhumane techniques. This can lead to additional criminal charges related to animal cruelty and/or the illegal practice of veterinary medicine.

Click to expand...

*​
When I read a book written by John Colby's son Joseph, it stated that it was


> "not practical to crop the ears of a fighting dog because it leaves too much of the inside exposed which may prove fatal to the dog in combat (The American Pit Bull Terrier (History of Fighting Dogs Series)
> By Joseph L. Colby)."


I think the Colby family would be be more of an expert about that than the ASPCA; furthermore, that makes much more sense than the ASPCA's reason, in my opinion.

Former dog fighter and old dog man Ray Fox has said in response to what is posted on the ASPCA's site that,


> " 'that dogmen cut their dogs tails and cut their ears short so they can fight better. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Anyone that fights dogs knows that a dog uses its tail for balance. So they leave their tails long. They also know that if their ears are long that is an advantage for a fighting dog. A dog will always get deeper on a short ear because he is closer to the head."


I *do not* support dog fighting but I believe that if one is going to own a pit bull it would be beneficial to learn every aspect of its history and how the dogs we know and love today came to be.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

The issue isn't about the breed pre 1976, it is about the breed in the year 2010. Thugs have given the breed a bad name and do fight them differently. My point is that isn't it then beneficial to "do away with" this criminal element? If it's called snitching, so be it! This is the problem and we all have identified it, so what do we do.... ignore it. Does stand to reason. Not aimed at you, Lauren


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

I don't consider it snitching if you are protecting something that is in danger.... Jmho


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> Now if you came to my house that is exactly the kinds of things your would find and my dogs are show weight and what some considered to be thin and I have some heavily scared dogs from nothing more that yard accidents nd the fact I have over 20 dogs here right now. Oh I have a bait dog, that would be General! LMAO
> So yeah my point is you can not always tell if someone is fighting.
> 
> Now I have no problem with dog fighting pre 1976 dog fighting ban. Most of the dogs were taken care of better than most ppl on this forum take care of their dogs. The dogs were never forced to fight this is what they were bred to do it is no difference than sending a terrier down a hole to face off a bagger.
> ...


I have said so many times that the outlawing of dog fighting is what is making it all fall apart now. I believe in my heart that is why the breed is in bad shape anyone can own them now you dont have to prove worthy to own them


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> The issue isn't about the breed pre 1976, it is about the breed in the year 2010. Thugs have given the breed a bad name and do fight them differently. My point is that isn't it then beneficial to "do away with" this criminal element? If it's called snitching, so be it! This is the problem and we all have identified it, so what do we do.... ignore it. Does stand to reason. Not aimed at you, Lauren


I agree Gamer. I believe it is true that we should do away withe thug out there forcing a dog to be aggressive in hope that this will make his dog more game in a match. But I think what every one is trying to say is make sure you facts before you say anything, or els you are doing no good to any one. mostly your self.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> Just a question. If the OP does see these punks fighting, or organizing a fight, then should she say something? I mean the ramifications are still going to be the same, she will still be considered a snitch, dogs may be banned at said complex, etc. How far does it have to go? Lisa states that it is the punks of today that have marred the fighting game of yesteryear, which I agree with, and yet no one wants to put these punks in there place? I don't understand. It's like letting a drunk get in a car and kill someone then report he was drunk, when it should have been reported when he couldn't find the keyhole in his car door! Now, I agree with Lisa that the fighting game was more honorable back in the day and had rules that were followed lest you be shamed among the other bulldoggers. But some did die in the pit, or out of the pit due to shock. There were "bonebreakers" back then as well. Some of the "losers" weren't particularly held in high favor either...draw your own conclusions there. And as far as "enjoying" the fighting, well they enjoyed pleasing their owners and probably would jump off a roof to make them happy. * I'm sure that some pit bulls did enjoy the fight to a certain point, but once that line was crossed, they were fighting for their life, and to line their owners pockets. Not real fun anymore*


You need to do a bit more research, there is more greed today in these dogs then there ever was back in the day. These men loved their dogs, they made the dogs and it is because of them we have them. THey took good care of them even having wet nurses for the pups if need be. No she should not tell unless she wants to get caught up in some stuff.



Firehazard said:


> Michael Vick took a plea deal because of the Military Officers and Police Officers involved in "his alledged ring".. Involved, not undercover... You don't think the man who signs his check didn't attend or know, (laughter) that will be your little secret. Just surfing court dockets, its all PUBLIC now mind you  Instead we just listen to the T.V. they wouldn't lie or misinform us...
> 
> Fighting chickens in HI and Okla I know its the men that sit behind desks and call shots in the day for us to live by, that also fund the underground shot callers..
> 
> ...


The government should have kept it legal and kept it under control, just like horse racing, rodeos etc now you want to see some nasty sport? Learn more about horse racing much more cruel then dog fighting IMHO



Saint Francis said:


> Unfortunately, those are some slippery rocks to be treading on. The rights of all pit bull fanciers to even own a pit bull is then handed to the street thugs, and I don't feel comfortable with them controlling the reigns. Waiting around for their mistakes only increases the likelihood of reprimands by John Q Public, which won't be good. We all have to realize that a large sector of the public truely hates our breed, and definitely has a disdain for fighting them. This isn't pre 1976, pit bulls are everywhere and everything has evolved, including the use of the APBT. Thinking otherwise is living in the past. We all know that this breed can become a media monster real quickly and that's why it is so important to present them favorably....and that has become the APBT's toughest fight. It's a game that we have to play to keep our dogs, yet there are some that are breaking the rules that could cost us all. I, for one, don't like the "mind your own business" approach. This is my/our business! Just my 2 cents of course


Well what I find interesting is that pre 1976 when all these dog fights took place Pit bulls were Americas dogs, everyone loved them, they were not the media monsters. So where is the problem with them? Dog fighting or the humaniacs who think they are helping them?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

gamer said:


> You need to do a bit more research, there is more greed today in these dogs then there ever was back in the day. These men loved their dogs, they made the dogs and it is because of them we have them. THey took good care of them even having wet nurses for the pups if need be. No she should not tell unless she wants to get caught up in some stuff.
> 
> The government should have kept it legal and kept it under control, just like horse racing, rodeos etc now you want to see some nasty sport? Learn more about horse racing much more cruel then dog fighting IMHO
> 
> Well what I find interesting is that pre 1976 when all these dog fights took place Pit bulls were Americas dogs, everyone loved them, they were not the media monsters. So where is the problem with them? Dog fighting or the humaniacs who think they are helping them?


I wasn't around then but have been doing massive reaserch since i decided to get into this breed for real. And that seems so true I have seen them on life covers and all kinds of thing in tv shows. the dog was kept true to its form of beeing game, and loyal to man. there for trust worthy and safe. back then the ones that were not were culled.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Laws haven't ruined this breed, people have. Lisa, Holly, Therese, Jaida, etc. don't fight their dogs to prove that they are worthy to own them. It's all about responsibility, who has it and who doesn't. The popularity of this breed was inevitable.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sorry i don't mean to say that they should be fought i just want to say the dog men of the past took better care in general of the breed than people do today.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> Laws haven't ruined this breed, people have. Lisa, Holly, Therese, Jaida, etc. don't fight their dogs to prove that they are worthy to own them. It's all about responsibility, who has it and who doesn't. The popularity of this breed was inevitable.


Ok then Laws have led to more people getting them and not caring these people you mention are not the majority they are a minority they dont just well to anyone, but the dogmen are dying off and they have no one to pass their dogs/knowledge/ethics down too. I have learned a lot from the old dogmen I had the opportunity to know and talk to but not everyone is getting the education they need because one mention of gameness or talk of the old times can still get you in big trouble with these groups that say they are trying to help but really they are killing off a great breed slowly


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> Sorry i don't mean to say that they should be fought i just want to say the dog men of the past took better care in general of the breed than people do today.


I am just stating my distaste for the government meddling in our homes and the hypocrisy of everyone being ok with horse racing heck even showing it on tv and that is a VERY cruel sport.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

gamer said:


> You need to do a bit more research, there is more greed today in these dogs then there ever was back in the day. These men loved their dogs, they made the dogs and it is because of them we have them. THey took good care of them even having wet nurses for the pups if need be. No she should not tell unless she wants to get caught up in some stuff.
> 
> The government should have kept it legal and kept it under control, just like horse racing, rodeos etc now you want to see some nasty sport? Learn more about horse racing much more cruel then dog fighting IMHO
> 
> Well what I find interesting is that pre 1976 when all these dog fights took place Pit bulls were Americas dogs, everyone loved them, they were not the media monsters. So where is the problem with them? Dog fighting or the humaniacs who think they are helping them?


So you are saying that if dog fighting was legal today in America then problem solved? The criminal element would become automatically responsible and this blood sport would be family entertainment. No way. We might as well just throw some christians to the lions while we're at it


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

being younger I am learning a lot and I have the fortune to know some people who have been around these dog pre 70's and they have taught me so much and you can tell by talking to them they loved the sport. and their dogs even more. I do however feel that people can't understand because they were not there. And i could not imagine watching my dog in that position. I understand were saint frances is coming from but i also see what gamer is saying there are so many sports involving animals that are just as cruel to an outsider looking in.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

So you are saying that if dog fighting was legal today in America then problem solved? The criminal element would become automatically responsible and this blood sport would be family entertainment. No way. We might as well just throw some christians to the lions while we're at it
Umm wow. a little dramatic?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> So you are saying that if dog fighting was legal today in America then problem solved? The criminal element would become automatically responsible and this blood sport would be family entertainment. No way. We might as well just throw some christians to the lions while we're at it


I am saying that if it was never made against the law yes I believe we would not be having these problems if the dog men were allowed to stay on the track they were these men did not just pass these dogs out to anyone, and go ahead try to be some smart butt punk see how far you would have made it with the game not far. It was family entertainment back then, Boxing and extreme cage fighting is family entertainment now not much of a difference both are bloody and gory why is it so far fetched that families did enjoy the sport back then?

we enjoy horse racing, oh wait yeah we dont see the dead horses, the legs breaking off of the horses, the sponges getting shoved up their noses before a race, their lungs exploding I guess as long as the abuse is hidden its all good for america :rofl:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

gamer said:


> I am saying that if it was never made against the law yes I believe we would not be having these problems if the dog men were allowed to stay on the track they were these men did not just pass these dogs out to anyone, and go ahead try to be some smart butt punk see how far you would have made it with the game not far. It was family entertainment back then, Boxing and extreme cage fighting is family entertainment now not much of a difference both are bloody and gory why is it so far fetched that families did enjoy the sport back then?
> 
> we enjoy horse racing, oh wait yeah we dont see the dead horses, the legs breaking off of the horses, the sponges getting shoved up their noses before a race, their lungs exploding I guess as long as the abuse is hidden its all good for america :rofl:


No argument here because I really dislike cage fighting and horse/dog racing even more


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> So you are saying that if dog fighting was legal today in America then problem solved? The criminal element would become automatically responsible and this blood sport would be family entertainment. No way. We might as well just throw some christians to the lions while we're at it
> Umm wow. a little dramatic?


Perhaps a little dramatic but it was a legal form of entertainment that if wasn't eventually abolished I wouldn't be sitting here today


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Bottom line. Fighting is a part of this breed's heritage, whether it's necessary or not for the breed to continue is debatable. I personally think that this breed can adapt to any change and isn't a one dimensional fighting machine. It has proven that.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

It's weird this thread came up today because I was just thinking this morning that things might be very different if matching dogs required a license and was regulated. I was also thinking along the same lines as gamer with regards to horse/dog racing.

To my way of thinking it would remove a lot of the meathead element from it.

Then again I'm the kind of weirdo who thinks that steroids should be legal in professional sports.

On the other hand I also agree with Saint Francis in that I don't believe dog matching or game testing is necessary in this day and age.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I hate horse racing and bull fighting/riding.
Just had to get my two cents in :3


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

boxing was a bloodsport until it became sanctioned, ironically boxing and dog matches were both promoted by the POLICE GAZETTE... 

YES.. IF dog matches were legal and SANCTIONED as boxing is today, there would be no dog deaths unless it was accidental from a dog with killer bite. If it was licensed and all that just like boxing, there would BE LESS CRIME involved, to think otherwise is believing your own little secret. In dog racing and horse racing 130 animals a day are euthanized in each organization, but dogmen who VALUE their dogs are barbaric creatures who don't deserve dogs.. LOL what a load of  Legalized and sanctioned will improve the bloodlines, the dog, and the stereotype.. MIND YOU THAT the Lil Rascals main star from which the named derrived was Rascal and Petey both CH and posing as the same dog in the sitcom surrounded by children, but yeh pit dogs are untrustworthy... I can't stand stupid.. Everyone says don't believe everything you here and see on TV; but everyone believes everything they hear and see on TV... 

"Here... take my rights and give me what you think I should have."


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> boxing was a bloodsport until it became sanctioned, ironically boxing and dog matches were both promoted by the POLICE GAZETTE...
> 
> YES.. IF dog matches were legal and SANCTIONED as boxing is today, there would be no dog deaths unless it was accidental from a dog with killer bite. If it was licensed and all that just like boxing, there would BE LESS CRIME involved, to think otherwise is believing your own little secret. In dog racing and horse racing 130 animals a day are euthanized in each organization, but dogmen who VALUE their dogs are barbaric creatures who don't deserve dogs.. LOL what a load of  Legalized and sanctioned will improve the bloodlines, the dog, and the stereotype.. MIND YOU THAT the Lil Rascals main star from which the named derrived was Rascal and Petey both CH and posing as the same dog in the sitcom surrounded by children, but yeh pit dogs are untrustworthy... I can't stand stupid.. Everyone says don't believe everything you here and see on TV; but everyone believes everything they hear and see on TV...
> 
> "Here... take my rights and give me what you think I should have."


its the humaniacs that are getting to these people and making them humaniacs and are convincing the pulic that BSL is dog fightings fault and the bad rep is because of dog fighting, and dog fighting make the dogs mean. You would think that americans were smarter then they are but nope they really are ignorant.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

gamer said:


> its the humaniacs that are getting to these people and making them humaniacs and are convincing the pulic that BSL is dog fightings fault and the bad rep is because of dog fighting, and dog fighting make the dogs mean. You would think that americans were smarter then they are but nope they really are ignorant.


:rofl: :goodpost:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Although I don't totally agree with your theories, I can see your point. However, the times have changed and aren't as black and white as you make them to be. Hell, you couldn't even get a majority opinion on the legalization of dog fighting amongst members of gopitbull.com, so you're not going to sway the general public! It's against the law, period, and that's no secret. Until the dogs themselves tell us that they want to be thrown in a pit and forced to fight, possibly to the death, it ain't gonna get legalized. Boxers have a free choice in the matter, whereas dogs don't, and don't tell me that they all enjoy it because the real enjoyment comes in pleasing their master, who ultimately controls their fate. We are going to have to agree to disagree on some issues here, and in a perfect world, we both might get what we want, but that's not the case.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> Although I don't totally agree with your theories, I can see your point. However, the times have changed and aren't as black and white as you make them to be. Hell, you couldn't even get a majority opinion on the legalization of dog fighting amongst members of gopitbull.com, so you're not going to sway the general public! It's against the law, period, and that's no secret. Until the dogs themselves tell us that they want to be thrown in a pit and forced to fight, possibly to the death, it ain't gonna get legalized. Boxers have a free choice in the matter, whereas dogs don't, and don't tell me that they all enjoy it because the real enjoyment comes in pleasing their master, who ultimately controls their fate. We are going to have to agree to disagree on some issues here, and in a perfect world, we both might get what we want, but that's not the case.


:clap:
I don't call ANYTHING that is at another living creatures expense "entertainment" I see IMHO a lot of double standards in this group.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> Although I don't totally agree with your theories, I can see your point. However, the times have changed and aren't as black and white as you make them to be. Hell, you couldn't even get a majority opinion on the legalization of dog fighting amongst members of gopitbull.com, so you're not going to sway the general public! It's against the law, period, and that's no secret. Until the dogs themselves tell us that they want to be thrown in a pit and forced to fight, possibly to the death, it ain't gonna get legalized. Boxers have a free choice in the matter, whereas dogs don't, and don't tell me that they all enjoy it because the real enjoyment comes in pleasing their master, who ultimately controls their fate. We are going to have to agree to disagree on some issues here, and in a perfect world, we both might get what we want, but that's not the case.


Until the dogs themselves tell us that they want to be thrown in a pit and forced to fight, possibly to the death, it ain't gonna get legalized

"Never trust a Pit Bull not to fight"... all my dogs ALL OF THEM had to be taught avoidance and other techniques NOT TO FIGHT amongst each other as we WORK AS A PACK, in ALL packs there are fights that is canine way, the APBT is the best at it and if your dog is not a CUR and EVER gets in a tussle.. hahahahahahha YOU TELL ME THE DOGS DON"T LIKE IT!!

NA they don't like the ghetto and backwoods ignorance that come from something like that, but if it was sanctioned and licensed with weights rules and restrictions, health conditions, bah... I have had to put animals down for people and the city, the only humanity is from the caretakers who have to handle the animals while they are being destroyed, everyone else is selfish and quick to blame.. Your are right people are to scared to stand together for something inwhich they believe should be our rights... LOL so long for freedom people are already socialists, its already ingrained in your minds an behaviors.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

coppermare said:


> I don't call ANYTHING that is at another living creatures expense "entertainment" I see IMHO a lot of double standards in this group.


horse racing, dog racing, animal pilots, K9 cops, rodeo animals.. Not to mention the SLAUGHTER HOUSES where animals are kicked prodded and stiffle in feces waiting to be ripped apart by machines... What about pregnant animals, yep the WHOLE animal goes into a mincer and thats what hot dogs and bolonga are made from... Thanks grandpa for making me work in a slaughter house for a bit :clap:
Thanks to the indisclosed sheriff dep for time spent training and working with K9 dogs( you know they do a choke out with a choke collar first day of training, most professional traniners do something similar when you leave your pet.. JFYI)

Cruelty.. . NO Bigotry~ All the prof dogmen I ever met loved their dogs more and treated them better than rodeo animals or even K9 cops.. If a K9 is out of control and bites a civilian , he gets put off duty for a while.. But if that civillian shot the K9 he would go to jail for shooting a cop, and if that K9 bit a deputy then it would be shot and replaced, bigotry and inhumane. IMO if you have a true APBT its game bred and it would love to tussle if not and I don't mean the dogs that wait until bitten, its a CUR and not an APBT.. I know my dogs aren't curs hahahahaha bear biters.. I don't use sticks or pop collars so training days can be fun.. CRUELTY.. Pig and Dog matching... Legal in Oklahoma and several other states, because PIGs are FOOD...  thats disgusting, that pig doesn't want to be there and is fighting for its life, the APBT is just all about Get Some..


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

This is the United States of America, still the greatest country in the world, where we enjoy many freedoms that some countries can only dream of. No one is stopping anyone from setting up shop in another country that allows dog fighting, if so inclined. This thread is heading in the direction of, as Lisa at PK put it, "beating a dead horse" but remember that although we may view the coin from two different sides, we still have the coin in common, my friend


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## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

Xiahko said:


> I told him about the $5000 reward for leads to potential dog fighting rings,so hope maybe that will give him more of a boost in the right direction.


To the OP. I'll have you know that several very prominent breeders have lost their entire yard a lifetime of work to that BullSh*t $5000 reward! You need to mind you own business! No I'm not promoting or condoning Dog Fighting I'm just saying some people need to stop stirring the Sh*t Pot when more than likely their nothing worth stirring! JMO.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Yes......We established this, like 3 pages ago XD


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## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

Xiahko said:


> Yes......We established this, like 3 pages ago XD


Great, then I hope you take all three of those pages to heart and put your little Sh*t Stirrer away.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I have :3 I already said I was gonna stay out of it. :3

I talked to performanceknls, and after hearing their story,I decided to bite my tongue,I don;t want any innocent lives endangered on an assumption.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

coppermare said:


> :clap:
> I don't call ANYTHING that is at another living creatures expense "entertainment" I see IMHO a lot of double standards in this group.


So you are vegan right? Dont own any leather products, dont use any animal products dont use any products by proctor and gamble or any other company that tests on animals? You do not believe in trying medication on animals first before humans? You dont like circuses ( i hate them actually), you protest zoos, you dont condone sea world and the cool shows so many people enjoy with the dolphins and killer whales?


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

gamer said:


> So you are vegan right? Dont own any leather products, dont use any animal products dont use any products by proctor and gamble or any other company that tests on animals? You do not believe in trying medication on animals first before humans? You dont like circuses ( i hate them actually), you protest zoos, you dont condone sea world and the cool shows so many people enjoy with the dolphins and killer whales?


:clap: Well said.


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## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

Funny post Gamer and I agree! The issue I have with the OP is that someone with over 500 posts on GP would tell a person that there is a $5000 bribe from HSUS on a whim! This after being told before that there was no evidentes of dog fighting. This irresponsible act is detrimental to our breed.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

This was only my second post on fighting.....
Like I had said(if you even read) in my OP,was that this part was all new to me.
If I had experienced this situation before...I wouldn't have posted or said anything.
and the 5k thing only came up,it's not like I flat out was like turn them in and get the moneeeeeeey~

Also, just because I have over 500 posts, doesn't make me a breed expert,if it did I wouldn't need to be here.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Xiahko said:


> *Also, just because I have over 500 posts, doesn't make me a breed expert,if it did I wouldn't need to be here.*


:clap::clap::clap::goodpost:
Word


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

gamer said:


> So you are vegan right? Dont own any leather products, dont use any animal products dont use any products by proctor and gamble or any other company that tests on animals? You do not believe in trying medication on animals first before humans? You dont like circuses ( i hate them actually), you protest zoos, you dont condone sea world and the cool shows so many people enjoy with the dolphins and killer whales?


Ahhh, the old vegan argument, classic. That's not quite for the entertainment value. And comparing that to dog fighting is a stretch.


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## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

Oh boy to you are quite the Drama Queen!
First I do read, that’s why I responded the way I did. Two thing infuriated me about this thread. You were told in your first thread that there were no signs of Dog Fighting and yet you started a second post based on hearsay. Then you tell someone that they can get a $5000 bribe from the HSUS if they turn in dog fights. That is just plain flat out irresponsible. 

Let’s look at just a few of your exaggerations. 
First you took a group of idiot guys with an untrained dog.
You turned it into Dog Fighters!

“Someone with over 500 posts on GP would tell a person that there is a $5000 bribe from HSUS on a whim.” 
You changed it into I’m Not An Expert! 
I was suggesting you should know better and NEVER implied that 500 posts makes someone a breed expert!

“I’m leaving the forum. “
YOU DIDN’T


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> Ahhh, the old vegan argument, classic. That's not quite for the entertainment value. And comparing that to dog fighting is a stretch.


Oh ok I see so you are selective with animal abuse? hmm so if I was hanging my dogs upside down by one leg and moving them down a conveyor belt while they struggle to get free then slit their throat and let them bleed to death so that I can eat them it would be ok as long as I dont get enjoyment out of it? Or if my dog didnt want to walk where I would want it I could hit him and kick him and yell at him and that would be ok?

My point here is that we are so quick to condemn something we think is abusive yet turn a blind eye to what our own government/corporations is doing to animals and think it is ok why? because we benefit from it that is the worse kind of hypocrisy in my eyes.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Saint Francis said:


> Although I don't totally agree with your theories, I can see your point. However, the times have changed and aren't as black and white as you make them to be. Hell, you couldn't even get a majority opinion on the legalization of dog fighting amongst members of gopitbull.com, so you're not going to sway the general public! It's against the law, period, and that's no secret. Until the dogs themselves tell us that they want to be thrown in a pit and forced to fight, possibly to the death, it ain't gonna get legalized. Boxers have a free choice in the matter, whereas dogs don't, and don't tell me that they all enjoy it because the real enjoyment comes in pleasing their master, who ultimately controls their fate. We are going to have to agree to disagree on some issues here, and in a perfect world, we both might get what we want, but that's not the case.


Dogs can and do exercise free will. He'll either fight or he won't. He has no idea what the consequences of quitting may be. Don't drink the "forced to fight to the death" kool-aid. We live in a crazy world but not one where the most efficient fighter ever only does it out of fear.


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> Dogs can and do exercise free will. He'll either fight or he won't. He has no idea what the consequences of quitting may be. Don't drink the "forced to fight to the death" kool-aid. We live in a crazy world but not one where the most efficient fighter ever only does it out of fear.


I don't think a dog "decides" to fight....


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

jmejiaa said:


> I don't think a dog "decides" to fight....


His point I think was there is a wall and any dog can decide to jump it.


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## Pancake (Jun 11, 2010)

gamer said:


> His point I think was there is a wall and any dog can decide to jump it.


Hmmmmmmmmmmm......So the dog jumps the wall and then gets put out to pasture. Or, does it get thrown back over the wall or put down? Honest question. Not trying to stir the


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

buzhunter said:


> Dogs can and do exercise free will. He'll either fight or he won't. He has no idea what the consequences of quitting may be. Don't drink the "forced to fight to the death" kool-aid. We live in a crazy world but not one where the most efficient fighter ever only does it out of fear.


Dogs will or will not fight, that is correct. It is the person behind the dog that needs to recognize this, and is where I take issue. Free will becomes debatable after said dogs are placed in a [] IMO.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Pancake said:


> Hmmmmmmmmmmm......So the dog jumps the wall and then gets put out to pasture. Or, does it get thrown back over the wall or put down? Honest question. Not trying to stir the


Depends if it is young they may put it away for a bit to let it mature, if it is a cur then they may keep it for breeding and he may throw some pups on fire or maybe it will be put down. Just like race horses


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## Pancake (Jun 11, 2010)

gamer said:


> Depends if it is young they may put it away for a bit to let it mature, if it is a cur then they may keep it for breeding and he may throw some pups on fire or maybe it will be put down. Just like race horses


Racing is that bad?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Pancake said:


> Racing is that bad?


yes it is. My friend use to work on a track and one horse had a bad leg so they iced it for a long time before the race to take the swelling down, the horses leg broke off while it was running, they just drug it off with a tractor. They also stuff their noses with sponges so they cant take a deep breath, give Lasix so they dont bleed from the nose when their lungs explode, steal Lasix so you can hide drugs you have given your horse, feed straight corn for energy even though it makes them physically run hot.

Horse racing is a sport we show on tv like i said I guess if the abuse is hidden its ok by america


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

gamer said:


> yes it is. My friend use to work on a track and one horse had a bad leg so they iced it for a long time before the race to take the swelling down, the horses leg broke off while it was running, they just drug it off with a tractor. They also stuff their noses with sponges so they cant take a deep breath, give Lasix so they dont bleed from the nose when their lungs explode, steal Lasix so you can hide drugs you have given your horse, feed straight corn for energy even though it makes them physically run hot.
> 
> Horse racing is a sport we show on tv like i said I guess if the abuse is hidden its ok by america


This is one subject that I agree 100%. Horse racing is horrible.


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## noodlesgranny (May 31, 2010)

I never knew that about horse racing. It was never something I was interested in. But I have never heard about the things that gamer said about it. I just wonder how much the general public knows about this?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

noodlesgranny said:


> I never knew that about horse racing. It was never something I was interested in. But I have never heard about the things that gamer said about it. I just wonder how much the general public knows about this?


Its out there just like anti dog fighting stuff is the public doesnt care to know there is big money in horse racing

CHAI - Horse Racing - the Horror Behind the Glamour

This is interesting Race Horse Death Watch

This horse one second place in this race, but then look what happened.....


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

noodlesgranny said:


> I never knew that about horse racing. It was never something I was interested in. But I have never heard about the things that gamer said about it. I just wonder how much the general public knows about this?


Gamer is correct that the general public turns a blind eye toward horse racing indiscretions due to its "glamorous" history and because alot of it is hidden from plain view. Pit bull fighting has nothing to hide behind, and while it certainly has a rich history, loses its glamour once the blood flows. Both share commonalities in that animals do die or are severely injured from time to time, which I find unnecessary. If the senseless bloodshed could be curtailed SOMEHOW, then I would be forced to rethink my beliefs. However, man enjoys power which begets abuse, and the source of the entertainment gets the sh*t end of the stick. BTW, the circus and rodeo are in the same category


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> Gamer is correct that the general public turns a blind eye toward horse racing indiscretions due to its "glamorous" history and because alot of it is hidden from plain view. Pit bull fighting has nothing to hide behind, and while it certainly has a rich history, loses its glamour once the blood flows. Both share commonalities in that animals do die or are severely injured from time to time, which I find unnecessary. If the senseless bloodshed could be curtailed SOMEHOW, then I would be forced to rethink my beliefs. However, man enjoys power which begets abuse, and the source of the entertainment gets the sh*t end of the stick. BTW, the circus and rodeo are in the same category


Well bull riding is not abuse, those bulls have the life, and enjoy what they are doing very much. I was actually looking into being a stock contractor but the funds to start it up were way beyond what I could come up with lol


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

gamer said:


> Well bull riding is not abuse, those bulls have the life, and enjoy what they are doing very much. I was actually looking into being a stock contractor but the funds to start it up were way beyond what I could come up with lol


Serious question gamer, I thought that a strap or something of the kind was fastened around the bull's genitalia in order to produce the kicking and such, but that may be incorrect?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> Serious question gamer, I thought that a strap or something of the kind was fastened around the bull's genitalia in order to produce the kicking and such, but that may be incorrect?


No there is a strap that goes around their flank but its not tight the way people think and those bulls are pride and joy if they cant buck they are retired to breed. The bulls are freakin awesome the way they think and try to fake out the rider to get them off, Bodacious my favorite bull of all time was retired early due to him figuring out how to pull the rider forward then throwing his head back and bashing in their faces lol smart guy! I almost bought one of his babies when I was running cattle in nevada but didnt now I wish I would have


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

gamer said:


> No there is a strap that goes around their flank but its not tight the way people think and those bulls are pride and joy if they cant buck they are retired to breed. The bulls are freakin awesome the way they think and try to fake out the rider to get them off, Bodacious my favorite bull of all time was retired early due to him figuring out how to pull the rider forward then throwing his head back and bashing in their faces lol smart guy! I almost bought one of his babies when I was running cattle in nevada but didnt now I wish I would have


They truely are a site to behold. That's alot of muscle and power to be messing with, those bull riders have balls the size of church bells I'd be content on just being able to pet one LOL!


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I was leaving the forum. I don;t even come on here as often as I did. I was leaving, and then the issue with my dog happened and I turned to this forum for advice.

I don;t think anything I said or did would make me a drama queen, however you're sure taking this way out of per portion, Myself and others have already established what I should do,and I've done that.

I posted this cause I was pretty much flat out told what these people do, to my face, so i wanted to know what I should do, or say.

It's not everyday someone tells you something like that.

You don;t have to talk to me, or comment on my posts, if you think I'm an idiot. I don;t really need you ragging on me, I'm just here to learn.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

and like I said before, 500 posts doesn't make me an expert.I obviously didn't know better.
I didn't even know about this 5k law until a few months ago from a poster I saw at my dogs training class

how the heck was I suppose to know what this fine did to innocent dogs? I've never seen or read an article that said anything about the 5k reward causing the death of innocent dogs.

I'm tired of you ragging on me. I just wanted to do what was right, and I did that by minding my own business,and not saying ANYTHING.

I figured this situation was different from the last post,cause I was flat out told what they do to these dogs.
Now if it;s really true, i can't say,which is why I posted again asking for advice.
I'm not just flat out going to report someone,if I was, I'd have done it already.

I keep saying over and over that this is my FIRST Pit bull,and I'm VERY new to this breed, I learn more about them each day,and this board has helped me a lot.

I don't need to be treated like an idiot,just because I'm not as knowledgeable as most of the experts on this board.


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## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

i know im late in this convo.

But how can some of you have the nerve to say that these "dogmen" loved their dogs so much? Thats pure BS

Who cares how much money they spent on vets, and stitching them up after a fight. They still threw them in a pit with another dog with all out intentions of killing its opponent. Thats no love, thats not caring for the well being of your dog. 

I dont understand where some of you get your logic from.....


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## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

on that note i am pretty much going to leave this forum. A lot of people on here need to get your head from out of your butt. You say your trying to better the image of our breed, but you praise the people that fought dogs in the past.

Nothing wrong with embracing what our breed is, but it is another thing to glorify the horrible sport of dog matching


I just feel sorry for the people that come to this forum, and really want to learn about this breed, but in turn get run off by the "know it alls" and smart comments.

A lot of you need to sit down and think about the real reasons you got your bully


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

echs332000 said:


> i know im late in this convo.
> 
> But how can some of you have the nerve to say that these "dogmen" loved their dogs so much? Thats pure BS
> 
> ...


How can you say they didnt love their dogs? I have talked to some and they did love them. I often wonder if these show dog people love their dogs when I see them in crates all day unless at a show covered in filth until the morning of the show yet they are hailed as breed ambassadors, they love their dogs they are bettering the breed, some show people are horrid yet we dont care 



echs332000 said:


> on that note i am pretty much going to leave this forum. A lot of people on here need to get your head from out of your butt. You say your trying to better the image of our breed, but you praise the people that fought dogs in the past.
> 
> Nothing wrong with embracing what our breed is, but it is another thing to glorify the horrible sport of dog matching
> 
> ...


If you leave well good bye but I hope you dont because this forum has a lot to offer.


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## noodlesgranny (May 31, 2010)

echs332000 said:


> I just feel sorry for the people that come to this forum, and really want to learn about this breed, but in turn get run off by the "know it alls" and smart comments.


Just do what I do--let the criticism roll right off your back. Remember what we used to say as kids, Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never harm me.

It doesn't matter what the subject is, whether it is about pits or misc., there will always be "know-it-alls" and people that just like to start crap. Take what you need from the forum and ignore the rest.:woof:


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

echs332000 said:


> i know im late in this convo.
> 
> But how can some of you have the nerve to say that these "dogmen" loved their dogs so much? Thats pure BS
> 
> ...


It seems counter intuitive but in many cases it's true. I dare you to go through what they had to to get their dogs ready for a match (weeks or months depending on the routine) and not form a bond with your dog. Also, the intent is not to kill the other dog although it did/does happen.

In regards to your other post, it's not that I'm praising what they did. It's that I respect what they did and the way they did it. You wouldn't have your dog if it weren't for the old timers.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> It seems counter intuitive but in many cases it's true. I dare you to go through what they had to to get their dogs ready for a match (weeks or months depending on the routine) and not form a bond with your dog. Also, the intent is not to kill the other dog although it did/does happen.
> 
> *In regards to your other post, it's not that I'm praising what they did. It's that I respect what they did and the way they did it. You wouldn't have your dog if it weren't for the old timers*.


:clap::clap::goodpost::goodpost:
Agreed!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

echs332000 said:


> i know im late in this convo.
> 
> But how can some of you have the nerve to say that these "dogmen" loved their dogs so much? Thats pure BS
> 
> ...





echs332000 said:


> on that note i am pretty much going to leave this forum. A lot of people on here need to get your head from out of your butt. *You say your trying to better the image of our breed, but you praise the people that fought dogs in the past*.
> 
> Nothing wrong with embracing what our breed is, but it is another thing to glorify the horrible sport of dog matching
> 
> ...


*First, I get my logic from educating myself on the history of the APBT. I read everything, good and bad, that is available to me. Read up on the history of dog fighting and the infamous dog men whose names you so often hear and you will find even more, with whom you are not familiar. I do not condone dog fighting but the simple fact is that it is the history of the APBT. Most dog men did care for their dogs as many of them had game bred dogs that were champions in the pit; however, they were also family dogs that were good with children, people loving, and yearned to please. They were considered incredible housedogs; there are people today who have dogs that have never even been in a home or around the family. They live their lives bored and neglected tied to a tree or in a fenced back yard. Just to clarify, I know people have yard dogs that do not come in side, I have one myself; but there is a difference between a yard dog and a neglected dog. I digress, but I do not think anybody was venerating dog fighting or encouraging it. What people have shown in this thread is we all have very strong opinions on this matter, some stronger than others.

I hope you will change your mind about leaving the forum. I would not let a bunch of said "know-it-alls" and "smart comments" ruin my education.
:thumbsup:
*


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## Pancake (Jun 11, 2010)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> *
> 
> I hope you will change your mind about leaving the forum. I would not let a bunch of said "know-it-alls" and "smart comments" ruin my education.
> :thumbsup:
> *


:goodpost:


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