# Sticky  Structure and Faults



## Mach0

Still trying to practice stacking lol so excuse crappy pics


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## angelbaby

ok hopefully i got her standing right I think her back legs are kicked out too far??? let me know if this works she just turned a year { I thought she was more classic looking what you think} And could I show her UKC or ABKC? 
















































ok lol hopefully one of those helped what you need lol let me know if you need more


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## LoudMouf

Mach0 said:


> Still trying to practice stacking lol so excuse crappy pics


Head:
-Too narrow muzzle
-Lacking Significant Cheek

Body:
-Long Neck lacking Tapering
-Turned Out Fronts
-Excessive Tuck
-Roach Back (could possible be the photo)
-Long Tail
-Turned in Hocks (might be the photos)

Overall Impression: Lacking a bit of substance. Small standard, I would probably attempt to add some weight and continue to condition the dog and then take some new photos for re-evaluation.


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## apbtmom76

ok Devin, not that I am tryin to argue, and I am in NOOOO way a judge or any kind of expert on the bully but why do y'all like them so thick, I think Blue looks awesome, I really do like to see a bully in shape with some muscle tone, natural and in a good working condition.  

What do you mean by lackin significant cheek?? ANd I see the roach back but I think that is due tot he pic, sorry I am not trying to argue, I amtrying to learn is all  And from what I haev seen he does have a long neck but I thought the original RE dogs had longer necks, see this is where my outcrossing with EB's and Presa's and stuff come in, did they do that to shorten the dog's neck, ughhh ok ok don't answer these, let me come back when I haven't been drinking  


Thanks Devin, please don't take what I am saying as a knock, i really am trying to learn


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## Sadie

I am just curious are you basing your opinions off the ABKC standards? Because both of these dog's don't really fit the ABKC standards at least not the standards they have now. They are more on the UKC side of the fence structure wise well at least Luna is. I have never owned a bully nor have I been to an ABKC show but I know a lot of the dogs at those shows are much larger than those pictured here. So I am just trying to get a better perspective as to which standard you are using here to judge these dogs. 

Thanks 

Sadie


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## LoudMouf

angelbaby said:


> ok hopefully i got her standing right I think her back legs are kicked out too far??? let me know if this works she just turned a year { I thought she was more classic looking what you think} And could I show her UKC or ABKC?
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> ok lol hopefully one of those helped what you need lol let me know if you need more


Head:
-Could use slightly more padding in the top skull

Body:
-Slight rise in backline
-Lacking Rear Angulation
-Lacking Turn to Stifle
-Narrow Chest
-Lacking Shoulder
-Could use a bit more Forechest.

Overall Impression: I actually like this dog for an ABKC Classic Class. Although it is bit lacking in rear assembly and the animal is not square.


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## Black Label Romo

Yes he is basing it off of the ABKC standard...these people wanted to know how their dogs would possibly do in the ABKC show ring...


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## Mach0

LoudMouf said:


> Head:
> -Too narrow muzzle
> -Lacking Significant Cheek
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> -Long Neck lacking Tapering
> -Turned Out Fronts
> -Excessive Tuck
> -Roach Back (could possible be the photo)
> -Long Tail
> -Turned in Hocks (might be the photos)
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> Overall Impression: Lacking a bit of substance. Small standard, I would probably attempt to add some weight and continue to condition the dog and then take some new photos for re-evaluation.


I will try some actual stacking photos but thanks for your op. I knew it would be tough in the ABKC since I like him leaner than what I normally see.
He's not roach backed but i can Deff see how you would see it- it's the pic. His rear is a little bit higher but not very little. It really depends on how he stands. I guess I might stick to w/p.

Here's two diff pics so u can see some other types of photos - do you think he needs more weight? Honestly- not trying to nit pick- just really curious.


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## Sadie

Well IMO Luna would def do better in the UKC .. Mach0 if you put some weight on your boy he would have a better chance at competing in the ABKC ... But he's too small as of now to fit the ABKC standards you want to show him in the ABKC your going to have to beef him up. Roach back and some rib showing is ok for ADBA dogs but not UKC/ABKC dog's lol. Anyway Continue on ....


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## angelbaby

thanks loud mouf appreciate your thoughts, she is 1 will any of her flaws improve as she ages I know I have seen her fill out a TON more in the last 2-3 months Im wondering if her head will gain more cushion as she grows? and maybe her shoulders and chest will fill out more?


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## LoudMouf

apbtmom76 said:


> ok Devin, not that I am tryin to argue, and I am in NOOOO way a judge or any kind of expert on the bully but why do y'all like them so thick, I think Blue looks awesome, I really do like to see a bully in shape with some muscle tone, natural and in a good working condition.
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> What do you mean by lackin significant cheek?? ANd I see the roach back but I think that is due tot he pic, sorry I am not trying to argue, I amtrying to learn is all  And from what I haev seen he does have a long neck but I thought the original RE dogs had longer necks, see this is where my outcrossing with EB's and Presa's and stuff come in, did they do that to shorten the dog's neck, ughhh ok ok don't answer these, let me come back when I haven't been drinking
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> Thanks Devin, please don't take what I am saying as a knock, i really am trying to learn


I will be the first to tell you I believe a bully should be conditioned and not overweight. BUT you have to remember that the American Bully is NOT a working breed, it is a companion breed and does require that the dog carry more substance. I guess the only way I can describe it in basic terms, the height/weight ratio should be overdone and excessive compared to a working breed. What it should not be is: lacking muscle definition. These are not sloppy fat dogs. "They [American Bullies] should medium/large dog with muscular bodies and blocky heads"

If you refer to ABKC Breed Standards you will notice the standard refers to "very pronounced cheek". If you refer to apbtconformation.com the best example of what I am referring to is under the Head Structure you will find a section where they refer to "The Cheek muscles are also becoming overly developed as one of those fad characteristics. Cheek muscles should be prominent but not exaggerated. There is a standard and the standard does not present a dog that has gross overly developed cheek musclulature."- That is a direct definition of what an American Bully SHOULD have.

Actually quite the contray, short necks is not a trait of mixing breeding. Ironically it is a trait that comes from the Amstaff lines which also added alot of the excessive cheek. A Presa or any other Mastiff would not shorten the necks and will add excessive dewlap and excessive loose skin.


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## Mach0

Sadie said:


> Well IMO Luna would def do better in the UKC .. Mach0 if you put some weight on your boy he would have a better chance at competing in the ABKC ... But he's too small as of now to fit the ABKC standards you want to show him in the ABKC your going to have to beef him up. Roach back and some rib showing is ok for ADBA dogs but not UKC/ABKC dog's lol. Anyway Continue on ....



Idk if I wanna show ABKC- unless I can thicken him up and keep him looking good and athletic.

Loudmouf- Ty for your input.While I understand the ambully is a companion not a working breed-I prefer a working capable dog.just my personal pref. I'm kind of stuck lol.


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## LoudMouf

Sadie said:


> I am just curious are you basing your opinions off the ABKC standards? Because both of these dog's don't really fit the ABKC standards at least not the standards they have now. They are more on the UKC side of the fence structure wise well at least Luna is. I have never owned a bully nor have I been to an ABKC show but I know a lot of the dogs at those shows are much larger than those pictured here. So I am just trying to get a better perspective as to which standard you are using here to judge these dogs.
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I wouldn't say either dog fit the revised UKC breed standard for the APBT. I am not sure how much show experience you have, but they would call both dogs very much overdone. Now I would agree with you that they are very fitting of the previous UKC breed standard.

Thus far I am reviewing the dogs to the ABKC Classic Breed Standard based on the written breed standard along with my experience within both the American Bully and APBT communities. By your own account you have never attended an ABKC event, and if you read my disclaimer I noted it is very difficult for me to evaluate by pics without actually seeing the actual size and movement of the animal. But make no mistake I have seen American Bullies come in all shapes and sizes, just as you have with the APBT........it is much more important to review Breed Type and Balance over actual size figures.

This isn't the best picture of her, but this was a dog I showed in the UKC. Knowlwood and Gaff blood and probably a good example of what an ABKC Classic female looks like. If the ABKC had been established when I was showing this girl, I am sure she would have championed out easily within the ABKC Classic class.


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## LoudMouf

Mach0 said:


> Idk if I wanna show ABKC- unless I can thicken him up and keep him looking good and athletic.
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> Loudmouf- Ty for your input.While I understand the ambully is a companion not a working breed-I prefer a working capable dog.just my personal pref. I'm kind of stuck lol.


I am absolutely agree. I actually own the very first American Bully to very compete in SplashDogs dock diving. He was very athletic while still carrying bully traits. I think it is a misunderstanding of the breed which makes people think that the American Bully is suppose to be a grossly overdone sloppy fat dog. It's a balancing act and honestly I love your dog's rear assembly!!!! With more weight I think he could have a chance in the ABKC.


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## Mach0

LoudMouf said:


> I am absolutely agree. I actually own the very first American Bully to very compete in SplashDogs dock diving. He was very athletic while still carrying bully traits. I think it is a misunderstanding of the breed which makes people think that the American Bully is suppose to be a grossly overdone sloppy fat dog. It's a balancing act and honestly I love your dog's rear assembly!!!! With more weight I think he could have a chance in the ABKC.


Thank you bud- lets see. I have made him lose alot of fat-when our winter is over- I'm going to be doing some drag to up the definition.


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## SemperFiBullies_Manny

One thing we have to remember is not all dogs are show quality and just because a dog doesn't fit one registry's standard doesn't mean it will fit the other registry's standard.


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## Mach0

I'm assuming you meant won't fit another standard. If that's the case- point well made.


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## apbtmom76

ok so my niece was wondering how you think Gage would do at the ABKC show, we have gotten many opinions, but my niece saw that you were here, lol, yes she has been doing her homework, she wanted your input on Gage


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## apbtmom76

apbtmom76 said:


> alright here ya go Devin, my niece wants to show her blue bully boy Gage in a few weekends at the ABKC show here in Austin, it will be her first show, ok so these pics might be bad but it was the first time we had ever stacked him, maybe the second, lol
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> And thank you for answermng my questions I appreciate that, I know the Bully was meant to be a companion dog, but I still think even bullies should be in shape on not fat or overweight, I see it alot, makes me feel bad for those, any dog for that fact that is overweight. I do like that red and white bitch you posted eartlier, I am really liking the classic bully style





apbtmom76 said:


> ok so my niece was wondering how you think Gage would do at the ABKC show, we have gotten many opinions, but my niece saw that you were here, lol, yes she has been doing her homework, she wanted your input on Gage


May my niece and I please get some feedback on Gage, she wants to show him next week at the show here in Austin and she is a bit disappointed that noone has answered, she just won't say anything, lol. She is super excited about it and really wants to show him, some tips or pointers would be nice as well, thanks


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## SemperFiBullies_Manny

apbtmom76 said:


> May my niece and I please get some feedback on Gage, she wants to show him next week at the show here in Austin and she is a bit disappointed that noone has answered, she just won't say anything, lol. She is super excited about it and really wants to show him, some tips or pointers would be nice as well, thanks


*I'm not an ABKC judge and by no means do I consider myself an expert on structure but I do believe I'm a more knowledgeable than your average bully owner so please don't take my opinion negatively.*

*First off, one thing that is very important to remember is "breed type"; your dog has to look like an American Bully. Lacking breed type is something I believe judges are definitely looking for in the ring and that is why you will have dogs that are structurally better but not place over dogs who have "breed type" but maybe have some minor faults. *

*So looking at the pictures of your dog and comparing them to the Classic standard, my first impression would be that he lacks breed type. The ABKC states "the American Bully should give the impression of great strength for its size"; in my opinion your dog does not exude strength.*

*Structurally:*
*Head - lacks pronounced cheeks, distinct stop; narrow muzzle*

*Body - overall body lacks substance; could have better rear and shoulder angulation; narrow chest*


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## apbtmom76

Thanks Manny, so even though he has a classic bully look and is only about 9 months old you still think this, I just don't understand, no actually I do, thank you Manny.


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## SemperFiBullies_Manny

apbtmom76 said:


> Thanks Manny, so even though he has a classic bully look and is only about 9 months old you still think this, I just don't understand, no actually I do, thank you Manny.


*Aimee, I based my comments on experience and my interpretation of the written standard. Even though he is only 9 months old and will mature I still think he will lack breed type.

Also remember that variety classes do not begin until a dog is a year old, so if your dog were to compete in a show at 9 months he would be competing in the Standard Male 9-12, one of the larger and tougher classes. I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful but he would not stand out in that class. My suggestion to you would be after the dog turns a year go to an ABKC show and have him evaluated by an ABKC judge.*


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## apbtmom76

lol Manny, my name is Tye and thanks for the input, i do appreciate it, my niece may not be so happy to hear this though, lol. Gotta love gettin a dog from a BYB. They love him though and that is what matters. I will still let her go and take him as well, let her get some expierence, she will just have to show game dogs til I get a bully


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## apbtmom76

LoudMouf said:


> I would have to concur with Manny's evaluation of the your beautiful girl! I also want to commend Manny on his suggestions of other activities to perform with their dog, because just because a dog is not cut out for a show career does not mean there are not other great activities for the dog. Another one he didn't mention, depend on the dog's temperment, is going to therapy dog service.
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> Their pedigree ARE APBTs. Without getting back into everyone's "personal opinion" of what an APBT, the UKC still recognizes these dogs as APBTs because there are not other breeders mixed it. (Remember the AmStaff was considered an APBT to the UKC at the time) This is the reason why I say not all Razors Edge dogs are American Bullies, because in the process of trying to produce conformational quality American Bullies, some of the by product have been very successful UKC show APBTs. But like Manny said, not all dogs are show dogs either, and have conformational faults or disqualifing faults that limit their ability to show.


Thanks Devin, Gage is awesome and super sweet, we shall see what happens but with no papers it really was just for fun and I can only do so much with my niece nad her bully as it is not my dog, but I do have dogs she can do stuff with, as well I will throw a fun show for all bully breeds, she knows he's a winner, and bullies and game dogs alike are not all show quality, I had a therapy dog APBT, and plan on many things with my mutt Orion this summer as well. I appreciate y'all's time, will tell my niece to have a look at this


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## B-TownBullyz

Here is my boy I would love to c wut u guys think.... C if it matches the flaws I c. Thanks










































and my pup


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## SouthernMystery

SouthernMystery said:


> SAbrina


okay i edited my pics


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## pitbullmamanatl

B-TownBullyz said:


> Here is my boy I would love to c wut u guys think.... C if it matches the flaws I c. Thanks
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Just a reminder I've never put my hands on either of these dogs and I am only going by the pictures posted 

Luciano has a nice backline, nice length of neck, his angles look good, and he has a nice front. He has nice hocks, pasterns, and I love his tight feet. He does look as though he has an overbite and his rear looks a little weak. Overall, he is a very nice dog!


Fuego is a gorgeous boy and I looove his color. It is hard to tell from that one picture but he looks like he may have an overbite, he looks slightly turned out in the front and his pasterns look weak. It is hard to tell from that one picture though since he is in the grass. He has great facial structure and I'd love to see a side shot of him!! His head to body looks unbalanced though and he lacks forechest, but you said he is a puppy right? He should fill out.


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## pitbullmamanatl

SouthernMystery said:


> no one can judge my dog?


Working on it sweetie. Is there any other stacked shots you have of her not in the snow and possibly a little closer.


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## circlemkennels

Im practicing with Pheonix.. i know hes not an adba style dog but possibly ukc if i can get him straightened out.. what do you guys think?? i dont mind critzism so go ahead 









his legs are out too far in this one


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## SouthernMystery

SouthernMystery said:


> I know she isn't really bully, but she is somewhat. I know she is the UKC style of dog, but i'm curious how she'd do in the classic class and if she fits the standard.
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last two arent the best pictures.


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## pitbullmamanatl

circlemkennels said:


> Im practicing with Pheonix.. i know hes not an adba style dog but possibly ukc if i can get him straightened out.. what do you guys think?? i dont mind critzism so go ahead
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He is a gorgeous dog!!! Those pics are kind of small and hard to see though; additionally, you should probably post him in the structures and faults thread in the general forum that Lisa evaluates because this thread is for ABKC standard not UKC.


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## SouthernMystery

blah nevermind.


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## pitbullmamanatl

SouthernMystery said:


> okay i edited my pics
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OK Sabrina is a very beautiful girl! Love her top line and neck and from what I can tell she has nice, tight feet (I am big on tight feet lol). That being said, per ABKC standard I think she lacks breed type for a bully and I am not sure how well she would do in he Classic Class. Classic style dogs still have a "bully" look to them. If you take a look at Semper Fi's CH Opha you will see what I am talking about with the bullier traits.

You can always see how she does in Classic Class though girl!! You never know!!


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## Sadie

I agree Lauren, Sabrina is carrying more of a staffy build I am not sure how your dog is bred but I don't really see the bullier traits that the AKBC dogs possess. But like Lauren said it doesn't hurt to hit a few shows I would try the UKC as well just to see how you do with the judges. Also it's really hard to see the dog's structure in these photos .. have you worked on stacking yet? That is something you will need to work on especially if you go the UKC route. Not sure how important it is in ABKC but I am sure the judges want to see your dog stacked as well. If you can get some close up side shots, front, and back it would make it a lot easier for the bully conformation members here to size up your dog. My pup is not a bully but this is just an example of a good picture where you can really see the dog from the side and front. I used these in the conformation section in the general part of the forum for Lisa to judge Bogart. I of course manipulated his stack myself because we are still working on stacking but you can get the idea... it would be a lot easier to see your dogs faults with a picture of the dog stacking and one from the front and rear if you can take some more shots.


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## pitbullmamanatl

Sadie said:


> I agree Lauren, Sabrina is carrying more of a staffy build I am not sure how your dog is bred but I don't really see the bullier traits that the AKBC dogs possess. But like Lauren said it doesn't hurt to hit a few shows I would try the UKC as well just to see how you do with the judges. Also it's really hard to see the dog's structure in these photos .. have you worked on stacking yet? That is something you will need to work on especially if you go the UKC route. Not sure how important it is in ABKC but I am sure the judges want to see your dog stacked as well. If you can get some close up side shots, front, and back it would make it a lot easier for the bully conformation members here to size up your dog. My pup is not a bully but this is just an example of a good picture where you can really see the dog from the side and front. I used these in the conformation section in the general part of the forum for Lisa to judge Bogart. I of course manipulated his stack myself because we are still working on stacking but you can get the idea... it would be a lot easier to see your dogs faults with a picture of the dog stacking and one from the front and rear if you can take some more shots.


Thank you, Sadie! Great stack shot examples as the front and side are easily seen. Taylor, there is a stacking thread in this section you can check out to help you with stacking. Stacking is a major part of the ABKC as well.


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## SouthernMystery

Okay, that killed my dreams, but thanks.


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## cEElint

Diesel @ 8 months.. crappy phone pics.. will try and get better ones



















back up top... got a new/better pic of Diesel


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## American_Pit13

I didn't know we had this thread!  I know she is not "stacked" She mentally can not stack lol

My American Bully Slim  Slim is a pet only.
Viewing Pedigree Details for PITTS BLUE FIRE - Bully Breed Resource


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## pitbullmamanatl

American_Pit13 said:


> I didn't know we had this thread!  I know she is not "stacked" She mentally can not stack lol
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> My American Bully Slim  Slim is a pet only.
> Viewing Pedigree Details for PITTS BLUE FIRE - Bully Breed Resource


 Slim is a gorgeous pet, Hols, and I love her muscle tone. She is a perfect example of a poor front assembly though. Obvious faults are E/W, down pasterns, elbows tied in, and hind legs too widespread; lacks chest depth. She has great cheek structure, but her head isn't very bully. Lacks the bone and substance a bully should have. You have done a great job conditioning her, Holly.


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## Nizmo

well since i am new to the bully game, and the show game. and we have a couple shows coming up, i'd like to get some advice and feed back on lowla. we'll be showing her in the abkc and ukc. any advice on her stacking, input on her structure?
anything helps, i just want to know as much as i can and in all honesty im nervous to show her. how do you guys think she'll do?
Lowla @ 2.5 months weighing in at 11 #'s


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## davidfitness83

Nizmo said:


> well since i am new to the bully game, and the show game. and we have a couple shows coming up, i'd like to get some advice and feed back on lowla. we'll be showing her in the abkc and ukc. any advice on her stacking, input on her structure?
> anything helps, i just want to know as much as i can and in all honesty im nervous to show her. how do you guys think she'll do?
> Lowla @ 2.5 months weighing in at 11 #'s


I think she will look good in the UKC, I don't know about the ABKC maybe in the classic class but it's too early too tell. She doesn't have the Bullier features that Bullies posses right now. Then again Bernie looked like a greyhound when he was a puppy and he popped lol Give it time man, I would try the UKC first and see how it goes. Do you have any shots from the front?


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## Nizmo

davidfitness83 said:


> I think she will look good in the UKC, I don't know about the ABKC maybe in the classic class but it's too early too tell. She doesn't have the Bullier features that Bullies posses right now. Then again Bernie looked like a greyhound when he was a puppy and he popped lol Give it time man, I would try the UKC first and see how it goes. Do you have any shots from the front?


yeah she's not looking too bully right now. im told that around 4 months is when this group starts to look more bully, i can notice her growth day by day. its cool to see her filling out more each day. Sativa didnt fill out til about 4-5 months and then she was a real looker. i miss that bitch like no other.
let me see if i can find some front shots, i just uploaded a few pictures.
thanks for the input!!!
edit: no front shots, i'll get some up here in a lil bit when i have someone to take a picture


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## davidfitness83

Nizmo said:


> yeah she's not looking too bully right now. im told that around 4 months is when this group starts to look more bully, i can notice her growth day by day. its cool to see her filling out more each day. Sativa didnt fill out til about 4-5 months and then she was a real looker. i miss that bitch like no other.
> let me see if i can find some front shots, i just uploaded a few pictures.
> thanks for the input!!!


Dogs develop at their own pace, I actually heard the opossite about American Bullies going through a lanky stage from like 3 - (8-9) months of age. The younger the Bully the thicker the look from what I have seen, that's why some people get pissed off that their dog didnt turn out like the way they did when they were tiny chubby cubs lol


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## Nizmo

davidfitness83 said:


> Dogs develop at their own pace, I actually heard the opossite about American Bullies going through a lanky stage from like 3 - (8-9) months of age. The younger the Bully the thicker the look from what I have seen, that's why some people get pissed off that their dog didnt turn out like the way they did when they were tiny chubby cubs lol


sativa went through lengthy stages and real chubby stages from month to month. i've noticed quite a bit also that they are real bully looking when they're young, tho she doesnt quite have that real bully look yet. i still have faith that she'll fill out nice. so we'll see :woof:


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## davidfitness83

Nizmo said:


> sativa went through lengthy stages and real chubby stages from month to month. i've noticed quite a bit also that they are real bully looking when they're young, tho she doesnt quite have that real bully look yet. i still have faith that she'll fill out nice. so we'll see :woof:


As long as the girl is healthy and sound that is all that matters :roll:


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## pitbullmamanatl

Nizmo said:


> well since i am new to the bully game, and the show game. and we have a couple shows coming up, i'd like to get some advice and feed back on lowla. we'll be showing her in the abkc and ukc. any advice on her stacking, input on her structure?
> anything helps, i just want to know as much as i can and in all honesty im nervous to show her. how do you guys think she'll do?
> Lowla @ 2.5 months weighing in at 11 #'s


Can you post a few more side stacks and a front stack shot please?


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## IzzosMommy

American_Pit13 said:


> I didn't know we had this thread!  I know she is not "stacked" She mentally can not stack lol
> 
> My American Bully Slim  Slim is a pet only.
> Viewing Pedigree Details for PITTS BLUE FIRE - Bully Breed Resource


I am in love with this dog http

Can I have her .. pweeeeety please


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## B-TownBullyz

Lets do my girly....


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## pitbullmamanatl

B-TownBullyz said:


> Lets do my girly....


You have her stretched out really far in the first pic, Vic. 
Front assembly looks nice and straight  
Take another side stacked shot for me please though.


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## cEElint

finally got some decent front shots of him.. he doesnt sit still for me.. lol


























also.. he's 19 7/8" at the withers and 48lbs @ 11months


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## pitbullmamanatl

cEElint said:


> finally got some decent front shots of him.. he doesnt sit still for me.. lol
> 
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> also.. he's 19 7/8" at the withers and 48lbs @ 11months


Clint, Diesel is an adorable puppy. Love his color and sweet face. Is he Am Bully? He looks more terrier, in my opinion. This is what I see:
 

He looks to be a little high in the rear, which is noticeable because of how far you have him pulled back, he has a dip behind the withers, lacks turn in stifle, and his chest lacks depth and broadness. He is a very lean dog and his front assembly is nice for the most part but he is slightly toed out. He looks to be lacking angulation, but I am not sure if it is that or the way you have him stacked. Because there is no turn to stifle it is giving the illusion of no angles. 



Try pulling his entire rear back when you stack him. In the above pic it looks like you only adjusted his hocks. By doing this you will be able to hide the dip a little better while also creating the illusion of angulation.


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## cEElint

i didnt adjust anything.. thats a natural stance

and yea.. he's AMbully, just not ur average one.. lol.. he was the runt and is the exact opposite of this littermates


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## pitbullmamanatl

cEElint said:


> i didnt adjust anything.. thats a natural stance
> 
> and yea.. he's AMbully, just not ur average one.. lol.. he was the runt and is the exact opposite of this littermates


Who is he off of?


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## cEElint

Gummi Bear (dam)









and from what my cousin told me.. they bred her back to Mossberg, her daddy


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## pitbullmamanatl

cEElint said:


> Gummi Bear (dam)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and from what my cousin told me.. they bred her back to Mossberg, her daddy


Word. I thought he was off of Mossberg, but I didn't know who the dam was.


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## ACEOFACE

What do you think about this male he is 11ms old












and her she is a 5 yr old female














What class would they go in? they are both 17" tall. They are not stacked that's how they stand


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## pitbullmamanatl

ACEOFACE said:


> What do you think about this male he is 11ms old
> View attachment 11080
> View attachment 11081
> and her she is a 5 yr old female
> View attachment 11082
> View attachment 11083
> 
> 
> What class would they go in? they are both 17" tall. They are not stacked that's how they stand


All dogs under the age of 12 months are shown as standard in the puppy class and the other dog would go in the 3 and up standard class, but you should have a judge wicket your dog before the show just to make sure.


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## ACEOFACE

pitbullmamanatl said:


> All dogs under the age of 12 months are shown as standard in the puppy class and the other dog would go in the 3 and up standard class, but you should have a judge wicket your dog before the show just to make sure.


Want dose that mean? and what do you think the pup will be in at a year? what faults do you see in them?
(I know what wicket means.)


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## checalas

what do you guys think of my boy? i didnt realy know about the shows or the abkc until after i bought him. im just looking for some feedback on what you guys think thanks


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## zohawn

work that dog, chec, and hell look amazing


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## checalas

thanks zohawn
do you have any recommendations on how to work him?


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## zohawn

sure, this is how i worked dogs in the past. every dog is different and feed and state of mind come in to play a lot of times.

i feed raw and that imo is a huge leap/hurdle to get a healthy dog.

these are all things i was taught and they have worked for me, i didnt "invent or come up" with these techniques, its been awhile so i wont know names.

before a work out i pet my dog, checking for sores, cuts etc. i then will walk my dog for 10 minutes just to get him empty, never work a dog that has just eaten or that has a belly full of water. you want them hydrated but empty.

i then put my dogs on the mill, the time on it will depend on the dogs over all look. a few things: never leave your dog unattended, never leave the mill where they can get to it on their own. when the dogs tongue spoons at the end i take them off and walk them until they just lightly pant. after breathing is normal i do a rub down/massage. i still wont give water but i will wet down the dog to get them cool. after about 30 mins i then give a small amount and after 2 hours the water bowl goes back out full time.

that can apply to flirt pole and spring pole as well.

a few tips:
1.always keep it fun and like a game.

2.never get to the point where your dogs tongue hangs out the side.

3.if a dog wants to stop you can stop BUT NEVER on the dogs own terms, if he turns his head or looks as if he wants to quit i will stop the mill but immediately do things to change his mind, like tricks or easy commands, i then take the dog off. (you dont want to reward quitting or your dog will learn to quit after 10mins etc).

4.never work a dog under 1 1/2 yrs old.

i would check threads on here and PM members who have well conditioned dogs, performancekennels and scratchin dog have amazing dogs.


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## zohawn

also, things to search are " don mayfield keep" some others too i just cant remember.


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## checalas

thank you very much
i also feed my dog raw hes 2 and half years i will take your recommendations and start working with my boy 
thanks again!


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## Chimera Kennels

I would recommend reading the 3rd issue of the pit bull gazette...as printed in 1977.

It reluctantly described a "form" standard of a working breed...outlining WHY certain traits were beneficial...but was reluctant to do so because it started off emphasizing the dogs were bred for non-show purposes and should be bred on the basis of performance first and form as secondary. 

It related structure to wrestling ability...identifying what appears to be ideal and why. 

It's a good read.


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## zohawn

i have that excert some where, if i find it ill post it


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## Chimera Kennels

I have it...but I am not willing to retype it. I could scan it though and post it in multiple image files if people want to read it...but I am not sure about copyright laws on that issue. It isn't 40 years old yet...so I don't know if it can legally be copied.


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## tribulliez91

*need a little input*

i have a 13 month old american bully and there is a show here jan. 28 i know there are some knowledgeable people here and i would like to know how u guys think she will do in the classic class


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## Rudy4747

I think she is very cute dog I am no bully expert but I think she made need some more thickness.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella

She looks classic....what is her weight and height?


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## angelbaby

Im no expert either but I think she lacks breed type and isnt bully enough. She also looks to be lacking angulation in the back , she looks very straight / stiff .Classic still is bully its just a little toned down then the other classes. She looks really tall like she would be xl in height, how tall is she? might just be the pictures. Again im no expert and I always tell people if you want to show then do so , its great to get the dogs out there and something active and different to do with your dog. You may just want to bring her to one even if you dont show her and maybe see if you can talk with the judge between classes or after the show and see what he says about your dog. Worst thing if you take her in is she doesnt place, no big deal then you can ask in the ring what the judge sees and when he likes or doesnt like.


edit: this is just my opinion and I may be wrong, im no expert. Also the rear angualtion im going off what i can sorta see, better pictures from the side straight on would be better to tell. If you can take better stacked pics that would help .

And please dont take this as anything bad, she is pretty I like her face .


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## tribulliez91

she is like 68 lbs. n 17 in tall


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## tribulliez91

i dont think i had her stacked properly cuz i thought the same but when i studied angulation i dropped the string perpendicular to the ground from the back of the butt and it land infront of her toes perfectly.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella

Whats her ped look like? Is she all bully or is she scatterbred? Reason why I'm asking is my girl is a bit scatterbred with RE, watchdog, and grapevine through her blood. Basically she has alot of ruffian or staff blood in her. She is small...only 48 lbs and 17 inches. When I was inquiring about showing her and asked alot of the pros on here they determined she is more pitterstaff and I was told I would get laughed out of the ABKC so to show her in the UKC instead. I am not a pro but your girl doesn't look bully enough to me either so I'm wondering if she may do better in UKC as well. However, your girl is young and has some filling out to do so who knows if she may "pop" in the next months to come. I would take her to the show and try her out. Talk to the judges and see what they think and in what class she may fit into best. She is beautiful though 

This is the place to post her pics and see if Lisa aka performanceknls responds. She can give you great input on your bitch. She is heavily involved in the show world.
http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/28792-examples-structure-faults.html


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## texasgame

she looks alittle toed out easty westy in one of the pics to me culd be the way she is stacked idk im not really a show person or a bully person


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## SMiGGs

I would show in xl, and not in classic.

You also arent stacking her properly, her hawk is not perpendicular with the tail. If you extend her back legs a bit more where her hawk is perpendicular with the tail, the front will straighten up. You're also stacking her at an angle.

If you look at my sig, you see how the tip of my dogs tail is lined up with the hawk of the dog. You see how her left paw looks westy, well thats because shes at an angle.

A good easy way to stack is, drop stack. Where you pick the dog up and land them on their paws. As soon as you do that extend the back a bit to your preference. As soon as you grab on of the dogs legs, they'll move, so you gotta get them from the belly, where the penis is at.

Second pic is gold, just extend the back, and youll be good.


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## angelbaby

heres the link actually, for bullys there is a seperate structure and fault thread 
http://www.gopitbull.com/bullies-101/34022-structure-faults.html


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## angelbaby

SMiGGs said:


> I would show in xl, and not in classic.
> 
> You also arent stacking her properly, her hawk is not perpendicular with the tail.


XL i believe she needs to be 19" at withers he said she is 17".


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## tribulliez91

there is her ped


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## SMiGGs

angelbaby said:


> XL i believe she needs to be 19" at withers he said she is 17".


Then i would think the dog is not being stacked right, because it looks tall.


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## pitbullmamanatl

She isn't stacked properly, but she does look tall so if you show her ask the judge or host to wicket her. Even for a classic dog she lacks bone and substance and definitely lacks angulation, but it could be the way she is stacked. I can't see the top half of her ped because it is way too small. She has some big boned dogs in her ped so I am wondering what the top half looks like to see if that is the reason she is lacking. I will tell you right now that most judges will probably think she is very "gamy." Those pics aren't very good, I've never put my hands on your dog, and this is just my opinion so take her to at least one show and see how she does... at the very least you will be able to ask a judge their opinion ya know? Oh, I am also going to move this to the structures and faults thread in Bullies 101.


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## Pink

I'd put her in Classic class. She is a little less "bully", but Classic class if for dogs with less overall body mass. I don't believe she'd do very well in any other class.

Good luck.


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## tribulliez91

top half is ieps xman, blue of ruckus, razen kanes nala of iron edg on her sire is the first and then his parents her dam is soso lows shylow that dogs parents are a1 gkk romeo henri dam is princess henri


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## Rudy4747

tribulliez91 said:


> she is like 68 lbs. n 17 in tall


She doesn't look that big at all. I would have guessed 45 pounds maybe 50.


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## angelbaby

maybe she is just a late bloomer, I know luna didnt pop until after a year . You really dont have anything to lose going to the show and you will get alot better feed back then any of us can give you here. All we can see is pictures and if they arent great its hard to go by. Atleast if you show her you can get some advice from someone who can put there hands on her. I dont think people will laugh you out of the ring at all, alot of people in the bully community are really helpfull. Go in with an open mind and im sure they can teach you some tips in the ring. What show are you going to? { I should say pitbull people in general are very helpful lol, we received so many pointers and tips in the ADBA ring , even with bullys lol}


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## Pink

Rudy4747 said:


> She doesn't look that big at all. I would have guessed 45 pounds maybe 50.


x2. My two are around 65lbs. Never would have guessed it.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella

pitbullmamanatl said:


> She isn't stacked properly, but she does look tall so if you show her ask the judge or host to wicket her. Even for a classic dog she lacks bone and substance and definitely lacks angulation, but it could be the way she is stacked. I can't see the top half of her ped because it is way too small. She has some big boned dogs in her ped so I am wondering what the top half looks like to see if that is the reason she is lacking. I will tell you right now that most judges will probably think she is very "gamy." Those pics aren't very good, I've never put my hands on your dog, and this is just my opinion so take her to at least one show and see how she does... at the very least you will be able to ask a judge their opinion ya know? Oh, I am also going to move this to the structures and faults thread in Bullies 101.


This girl right here knows her ish so she can give you the best advice about the bully world and the ABKC. She is one of the members that helped me out when I was inquiring about my bitch  She is very active in the show ring.....Man, I totally forgot about you Lauren :flush: :hammer: Miss OCD bullyologist! She da bomb! :roll:


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## ChicoG

What do you think?


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## Renzen

Nooo longer relevant


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## Rednoseboy239

*land of giants*

i just bought a land of giant pit bull puppy i was wondering how anyone ever heard of it?


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## Just Tap Pits

Rednoseboy239 said:


> i just bought a land of giant pit bull puppy i was wondering how anyone ever heard of it?


Try this
http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/4627-land-giants-bloodline.html


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Rednoseboy239 said:


> i just bought a land of giant pit bull puppy i was wondering how anyone ever heard of it?


might wanna start a new thread... that way more people see it....


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## bluedozer

Closest stacked picture I have. Dozer is 14 weeks and about 35lbs in this pic please let me know what you think. thank you


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## Princesspaola21

Thoughts....?

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## ::::COACH::::

Lol I like the derp face of him running!  so cute! I am picky on how I like bullies and I wouldn't own this dog personally. But that is just personal opinion based on what I like! Too chubby looking and has too much mass for me...hehe... I don't know bully structure and how everything is supposed to look so hopefully some bully people pop in here and can help you. But he "looks" like a nice looking Ambully to me... oh and I like the color


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## winwin

Hey there guys, can I ask for some assessment of my boy? He's just over a year old, these pics were taken 1 day before he turned 1 year old. Not the best pics but I got nothing else for now, he's in another city and I have yet to have him shipped to me yet.


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## ::::COACH::::

He has nice tight feet, and a healthy coat. His stifles are straight and I think he lacks breed type. I am assuming he is an American Bully. He looks a little more American bully/Amstaff cross to me. 

Still a handsome boy.


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## winwin

::::COACH:::: said:


> He has nice tight feet, and a healthy coat. His stifles are straight and I think he lacks breed type. I am assuming he is an American Bully. He looks a little more American bully/Amstaff cross to me.
> 
> Still a handsome boy.


He's an american bully, I'm improving his stifles, it's just that he's not with me right now, but his stifles has improved since before since they were super straight, they shoot his ass right up in the air.

His peds by the way, been told it's a slow popping blood, I hope it is.
The Bully Tunnel Magazine Pedigree


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## DieselsMommie

How do u improve stifles? Isn't that genetic?

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## ::::COACH::::

Haha yeah you can't improve stifles...it's just how he is.


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## winwin

Actually, you can. Try this, lift both legs by the base part, so the legs get bent then put it down while it is still bent, hold him down by the base of the tail so he can't lift his ass up, hold it for a few seconds then give him a treat. Do this frequently, increasing the time every time you do it. Eventually he'll get used to it. Flirt pole helps too.

Another trick for those with roach back, it won't correct it 100% but will improve it. Lift his chest then make him hold it up then give a treat, also supplement with calcium. I'll post a pic of my dog before I did those.


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## Pink

That's just temporarily changing a dog's posture. You can't change a dog's internal bone structure. Depending on the way they stand, those faults can be made to look slightly less severe, but it doesn't fix them. He'll always be straight in the rear, and dogs with a roached spine will continue to be roached. 

I wouldn't say he lacks breed type. Given he only just turned 1 year, I think he'll continue to fill out, and should mature into a decent looking boy!


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## winwin

Here's a pic of him when he was younger, now I don't know if it's just that weird uneven growth spurt he's going through but i tried to correct that as much as possible, I was thinking of a person's posture and tried to do that on the dog.










At 1 year old, he's still going through weird phases, when he was 8months old he had a huge head and average sized body, now at 1 year old his body suddenly got so big leaving the head behind, hopefully the head catches up again. I got not pic of the "corrected" stifles and roach back though.

By the way he's a little fat right now since he stopped growing taller and is still being fed the same amount of food, 1kg of meat per day, now I told them to lower it a bit, he has everyday exercise though.


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## pitbullmamanatl

winwin said:


> He's an american bully, I'm improving his stifles, it's just that he's not with me right now, but his stifles has improved since before since they were super straight, they shoot his ass right up in the air.
> 
> His peds by the way, been told it's a slow popping blood, I hope it is.
> The Bully Tunnel Magazine Pedigree


You can't improve stifles. If a dog lacks turn in stifle it will always lack it.Nothing magically grows or turns as they get older. The stifle is equivalent to the human knee and it plays a major role in rear angulation in these dogs.



Pink said:


> That's just temporarily changing a dog's posture. You can't change a dog's internal bone structure. Depending on the way they stand, those faults can be made to look slightly less severe, but it doesn't fix them. He'll always be straight in the rear, and dogs with a roached spine will continue to be roached.
> 
> I wouldn't say he lacks breed type. Given he only just turned 1 year, I think he'll continue to fill out, and should mature into a decent looking boy!


No, he doesn't necessarily lack breed type; however, it is evident he will be a Classic dog given his bone and substance, and overall structure. I will not attempt to break down the dog as those are poor quality pics to assess. I am not impressed with his front assembly from what I could see and he definitely needs more turn in stifle.



winwin said:


> Here's a pic of him when he was younger, now I don't know if it's just that weird uneven growth spurt he's going through but i tried to correct that as much as possible, I was thinking of a person's posture and tried to do that on the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 1 year old, he's still going through weird phases, when he was 8months old he had a huge head and average sized body, now at 1 year old his body suddenly got so big leaving the head behind, hopefully the head catches up again. I got not pic of the "corrected" stifles and roach back though.
> 
> By the way he's a little fat right now since he stopped growing taller and is still being fed the same amount of food, 1kg of meat per day, now I told them to lower it a bit, he has everyday exercise though.


I honestly think he needs more weight on him. He is a bully, although Classic, but he shouldn't be looking pit bull either. I'd put another 4 or 5lbs on him, especially this time of year.

If you take a proper front and side stacked shot for me I'll see if I can help anymore but you can't see much in those pictures.


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## pitbullmamanatl

LTristan said:


> Hey guys! Its been a while. I had been really busy and only had the time to stack him yesterday. It was 4 months since we had this practice session. So bear with us.
> 
> Anyway, how is my boy growing up? Can you judge his angulation and confirmity? Based on the ABKC and UKC standard. And which category fits him best or I mean showcase his structure. Classic Bully? Standard Bully? TIA for the inputs!  Feel free to criticize, be it negative or positive.


Overall he is a nice dog. Definitely a Classic based on his frame and even that might be tough for him given his head and his muzzle is snipey but it would have to depend on the competition that day. His neck is a little long.... He appears to have a nice front assembly, nice feet, could use a little more turn to stifle..... I will look more in detail tomorrow when I put my contacts in because I'm squinting and struggling right now lol 
Thanks for posting a stacked picture. As for UKC standard you should post this pic in the General Forum under a similar thread that saiys Examples: Structures and Faults.

What's the ped on this dog and are you planning on showing him ABKC?


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## pitbullmamanatl

LTristan said:


> Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it.
> 
> I agree that his muzzle is a bit snipey but it will probably boil down on the competition on the show. I've seen similar muzzles though on Classic and Standard Bully. Anyway, does the muzzle weigh much in shows or is it only sometimes made as a last resort if the competition is really stiff? He won Best Male Puppy Bully when he was 6 months old on a fun match and planning to join him on an ABKC sanctioned show this April. That's why I'm asking you guys if his okay with ABKC. From what I have seen, its way different from fun matches.
> 
> Hehe. I stacked him properly though the angle of the picture taken was a bit slant.
> 
> He is born and raised in the Philippines. He is the product of HHK Riddick x DRK Baba.
> 
> Sire: HHK Riddick (UKC registered) - BullyPedia|The American Bully Online Pedigree Database
> 
> Dam: DRK Baba's peds unfortunately isn't available online as she wasn't registered by the owner. But got good pedigrees on her.
> 
> Picture of the sire (tri-color) and dam (white and brown)


The head will play part in it depending on the judge and the competition. My Classic Champion doesn't have the bulliest blocky head so there are some judges i would never show him under. All you can do is bring him out and see how it goes. What show are you planning on attending in April? Are you in the Philippines?

His parents are definitely both classics but the sire has a nice ped.

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## pitbullmamanatl

LTristan said:


> Well, that probably sums everything up. I will show him and see how it goes. What the judges will say on him is crucial as it will be my guideline on what we lack and what we need to improve.
> 
> As far as what I have heard with some of my bully owner friends, its an NPTC - PBL sanctioned show. NPTC means National Pitbull Terrier Club and PBL means Philippine Bully Club. It is I think a show where it is recognized by ABKC? I'm not that really sure. And big names from ABKC went to Manila.
> 
> Yes. We both are in the Philippines.


Good luck hon we're coming ABKC strong over there

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