# Warning



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I hate to have to post another negative thread after reading Starlitparlit's, but I have to warn you all. A while back there was a heated discussion about pit bulls and wether they could live with other animals. I was one of them right in there telling tommyt pits can live together, it's all in how you raise them, blah blah blah....

Well, this morning I had a VERY rude awakening. I was taking a nap and woke up when I heard a bang and then growling and snarling and fighting. My dogs were fighting over a piece of cake they had knocked off of the kitchen counter. They could not be broken up. I told them to stop in my demanding voice. I tried to stay calm and just get them to listen to me, but I got scared and lost it. I can't describe what it was like watching them kill each other. I can't believe some people do this for sport. I yelled, I screamed, I opened the back door hoping they would run out, I threw hot water on them, I threw cold water on them, I tried to break them apart by pulling them, I beat them over the heads with a bottle of tide, I tried to break them with the broom. Mary Jane let go and tried to stop, but Sadies would not let go of her. I can't believe I'm stupid enough not to have a breaking stick.

I finally ran to my neighbors (my intentions were to have him bring his gun and shoot Sadies, honestly, it was that bad) but he just came in and said "Hey!!" in a loud and deep voice, and Sadies let go. 

Mary Jane has some deep open wounds on her neck and chest. She lost a lot of blood and will have to stay @ the vets untill Monday. They can't even stitch her up until they can stop the bleeding. She has to be given an IV and needed some pain medication. They said that there was so much hanging skin it would be best not to sew her up right away because they may have to cut some skin away. But there were no internal organs damaged and she is breathing just fine. She is going to be ok.

Saides got out of it with a few scratches on her face. She'll be just fine, too.

This came without warning. They had been in bed cuddling @ my feet not five minutes before. And then, boom, I witnessed the pitbulls never give up attitude @ it's worst. 

I'm just lucky that they will both be ok. Saides will be going to live with the breeder we got her from. We know that she will be taken very good care of there.

Please, please, please, EVERYONE, if you own a pit bull, you should own a breaking stick, period. And do not leave them alone together. ESPECIALLY two males or two females. You never know what will trigger a fight. And once they start, they won't quit. That's just the way it is.

And please, do not take this as me saying that all pits are visciouse or that because they fought each other they would hurt a human. Human and animal agression are two totally different things. They are still both very loving and amazing dogs, they just can't live together anymore. I still love both of them very much, and am happy we have someone who will take Saides and give her a loving home. 

I can't sit here and discribe what it was like watching them fight like that. I sit and try to go over in my head what else I could have done, but I honestly did everything that I could. But, I still hold myself responsible because I should have never had them together. And I should have had a breaking stick. I just honestly never believed this would happen.

We ended up lucky. Both of my dogs are still alive and niether is hurt too bad. Mary Jane got the worst, but it was more because of where Sadies got ahold of her at. The skin there is really loose, so it was easily torn away. Mary Jane will need stitches, but she will be ok. Sadies will be able to go to a loving home where she will not have to be around other animals. Mary Jane will stay with us. But I can't help but wonder what would have happened had they been here alone. One of them would probably be dead.

Please do not try to make two pit bulls of the same sex live together. It will end up backfiring.

My hands are shaking right now just having to think about it all again. It was so scary.

I'll keep you all posted on how Mary Jane is.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

I wondered why this wasnt happenning a long time ago. It sounded like you had a handle on that. Im sorry I didnt explain while tommy t was going off, but I said I didnt want to get started. But, here I go...
these dogs are not cocker spanials and should never be treated like one.
We love them and treat them as part of the family, give them people food and spoil them rotten. they are dogs. and should know they are dogs but we must Know we are human, the alpha, and only the alpha should make decisions for the pack. No unexceptable behavior is allowed. by dogs or humans. dont expect them not to fight, they will. our job is to keep them safe from everything and they will learn to trust that. if they know you are alpha and if you avoid all triggers - food, treats, toys and even allowing one to to be at a higher elevation than the other, like on the bed. If you are going to have two dogs of the same sex, make sure they have a strong re-direct as well as a strong sit- stay. I see it alot and I learned from my mistakes. I suggest a non-dominent, nuetered male for any female pit. See I get burned out easy when I put my thougts to words. I hope it makes sense.
Dave


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

No, I know exactly what you are saying. Even when TommyT was talking I said that pits are dog agressive. I knew, I just didn't wanna believe it would happen here. Sadies has always been a little cocky when it comes to food, so we've always been careful not to leave it out whenever we leave. But that one piece of cake left on the counter started a war. And looking back, I'm sure they were feeding off of my fear and anxiety. I shouldn't have gotten so upset. I should have kept using commands they know, but like I said I got scared and hysterical. I believe that's why my neighbor was able to get them to stop. I had removed myself for a minute. Dogs can smell and feed off of human emotions, and mine were just adding to the problem. I feel like I've been in a car wreck today. I'm sooooo sore all over. I must have used more physical exertion than I realized. My throat hurts from yelling. My back, arms, and legs hurt. And I'm so mad at myself for handling everything the way that I did. I should have stayed calm and used the commands they know instead of losing myself that way. But it's easier said than done. If you have never seen dogs fight for their lives, then you have no idea. And it seamed like it went on forever. It was like watching wolves on the Discovery Channel. I couldn't even begin to describe what happened because I can just see flashes in my mind. And to watch two member of your family want to kill each other. All I could see was teeth and blood and bodies. My house smelled like blood. And it looked so much worse than it was because they were both covered. It just makes me sick because they are both such wonderful dogs. They just both wanted to be the Alpha Female, and that can't happen. And I'm glad that I went to the neighbor that I did because he has been around pits his whole life. I wanted him to get his gun, and he said "No, we won't need that." and I was like "Yes, you will, you don't understand." But he was already up and running to my house. And thank God he didn't need it. I just thought shooting them would be more humane than what they were doing to each other. They must have fought for a little over five minutes, but it felt like hours. And now, I'm sore and humiliated. I just admitted to the world I'm a dumbass. Live and learn, right? I just really believed I knew what to do and had a handle on everything. Now I just feel stupid and irresponsible. I look at my dogs and feel soooo guilty. I'm emotionally drained right now.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

I know exactly how you feel, your life has changed forever. Liberty and lucy did the same thing, when I broke them up, they tore my pants off. Libbey was a foster and the best dog Ive ever known, but we were obligated to lucy and Lib found a new home right away. I felt sick to see blood running from there bodies like a bathtub fawcet. and I still shake as I write this. Still I will keep multiple dogs and will never give up on the breed .No problems in 2 years and 
with 6 dogs. Lucy loves companionship and trusts us to keep her safe and I will not let her down. Your reaction was normal and Im proud of you. I would like to here what Italian2feathers has to say, she is the most experienced.
Dave
RE-dog


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I would like any input.


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

I went through the very same thing a few months agao. My two older females went at it in the pen over food. It was my fault cause I knew better than to feed raw food to them together. I could not get them to break either. At that time I was without a breakstick. Another irresponsibilty on my part. I did the hot and cold water thing and it took my husband to get in there and stick a metal pole between them. My oldest female let go but the younger one would not. They both suffered some holes in the face but nothing major. My oldest has problems with her ears to begin with and the fight made it even worse as Kira (younger one) loves to bite Dasia's (oldest) ears. I never thought it would happen to me either as they were raised together. I'm alot like you, I knew there was always the possibility but you never want to think it could happen to you. It broke my heart. I was screaming and yelling, kicking the pen. It was horrible. My dogs were bloody and I was in complete shock. I cleaned them up real well and then just sat on my porch with my head in my hands. Now, none of my dogs get any people food or raw food unless they are on their chains. No play toys together, nothing. I also have two 5 month old gamebred pups that don't get raw or table food together either. Even though they are still small, they too can go through the dominant issues. So, I can relate to you and how you feel. Sorry to hear and I sure hope Sadies gets better. Think positive and keep your head up !!!


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

the neighbor that came in was also a male and sounds a lot like joe. they listen to him better than me. i mean, they listen to me pretty well, but when he gets on them i'm the one they run to. they look at me as a provider and someone to protect. joe is their real master. does that make sense? he wasn't here when it happened and i truly believe had he been it wouldn't have gotten that far. we're keeping sadies here until monday when mary jane gets to come home. i wanna be the one to take care of her right now. she's just been through something really traumatic and i don't want to put her into a new home until she's had time to recuperate. we've had mary jane almost six years. the thought of her not being my dog anymore is too hard to imagine. i love sadies a lot, but it will be easier to give her up. she's just a little over a year old. so they've been able to live together so long because sadies was a puppy. now she's getting out of the puppy stage, and they're just not going to be able to stay in these close quarters. mary jane grew up with our boy dog hannibal. and she's had puppies before. hannibal died last year and we got sadies a few months later. she's always been protective and kind of a mother figure for sadies. but now, sadies isn't a puppy and they're two females trying to live in the same house. it just isn't going to work. i'm so glad they'll both be ok. i can't wait to bring mary jane home, but i hate to have to give sadies up. but, i know that i have to. 
but, i can honestly say that neither of them would ever hurt me. if they were going to, they would have done it yesterday in the heat of the moment when they were already in attack mode and i was pulling them and trying to pry their mouths open and sticking brooms in their mouth and hitting them in the head. i mean, i put my own hands down there. i'm really lucky i didn't get bit before they realized what they were biting. it just never crossed my mind they were going to hurt me, i just didn't want them to kill each other. but, they were bred to be handled by humans. i feel lucky and stupid. at the time, i really believed i was doing everything i could. i should have never lost my cool like that. i've just never seen dogs rip each other apart before. it was the most scary thing that i have ever seen.
sadies face is a little swollen today. but, we expected that. i can't wait to bring mary jane home from the vet. i know she has to be scared to death and wondering what is going on. we can't go see her today because the office is closed. she probably feels abandoned. but i know the vet techs are taking good care of her. 
sadies acts like she lost her best friend. she's sleeping right now because the medicine makes her drowsy, but she's been walking through the house looking for mary jane. and yesterday, after we got them broke up, sadies walked up to mary jane and started licking her wounds. i got her away as quick as i could, i didn't want them to start again, but it was like she was sorry, you know?
i don't know. this was just a wake up call for me. i will never own two dogs of the same sex and try to keep them both in the house. it could have been so much worse than it was. 
please pray for us and pray that sadies does ok with her new family. i just dread seeing the vet bill.


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

It is a very difficult thing to go through. Its just a matter of doing what is right for you and the dogs. Its not that they want to fight but there will always be a battle for dominance. Mine get along very well. Its just when it comes to toys and food that there is an issue. You just have to learn to keep them separated. Thats what I had to do. I let them inter-act but only on a leash and under supervision. My dogs are all the same way. They all listen to my husband better that they do to me. They look to me for food, water, shelter, protection and companionship. You just have to remember, they are dogs and should be treated as such when it is deemed necesary. I was able to handle my situation because I have enough yard to keep them apart and under control. My husband often talks about giving up my oldest pup but I don't have the heart. I've had her since she was a pup and she's now going on 3. I love all my dogs and wouldn't be the same if I didn't have their love and companionship in my life. I would never want to make that kind of decision. I'm sure Sadie will do just fine in a new home. You just have to keep positive. Trust me Sadie can feel every emotion you feel and I'm sure she shares in you pain and concern for Mary Jane.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I went to see Mary Jane today. She is doing really well. The vet wants to keep her until tomorrow because the wound is still open and flushing itself out so they didn't want to stitch it yet because they are afraid it will absess. They are hoping she can come home tomorrow. She was so happy to see me and acts like she is in very good spirits. She's limping a little bit and she's lost a little weight. She was a little sluggish from the meds.But all in all, she'll be just fine. I love that dog.


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## ErikH (May 26, 2005)

Glad to hear she's going to be ok


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

thanks. and the bill wasn't too bad, all in all. when you consider they were closed when we went in and she will be there 3 1/2 days and all of the care, trust me, it's well worth her life to me.


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

I'm glad to hear the Mary Jane is doing OK. I told it helps to stay positive. I'm sure just seeing you makes all the difference. Any vet bill is worth it if it can save the dogs life.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

oh yeah, i totally agree. i was still a little scared to see it, though.


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## starlitparlit (Oct 14, 2005)

I am sorry to hear about what happened. You did the right thing by sending Sadies to live with someone else. I am sorry that it happened but I am glad that you posted it so that people can be informed about what this breed can do and how when a fight occurs it is almost impossible to break them apart if they really want to tear each other up. This is an animal agressive breed, although I have never personally owned one that was animal agressive I am sure that if the right situation or the wrong situation would have occured I would have seen animal agression in my dogs as well. Thank you so much for taking the time out to inform people. We can't only know about the good aspects of this breed. If we are going to own this breed we need to know the good, the bad, and the ugly that way we can be prepared for whatever comes our way.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

my first lesson about pits is they are A weapon. A loaded gun and was I willing to point it at the public and pull the trigger?I keep several break sticks strategically placed around the house.I have A cattle dog with my pit. he knows the nature of the breed through previous association. we had my present pits mom for 2 years til she was stolen. when we first got her he jumped the pit confrontationally. she slammed him shook him and stood back and growled at him. at this point I stepped in and took them for A swim. did the same and similar thing now. my dogs get firm discipline.some say they fear me. fearing me is worlds apart from killing YOUR kid.you own the greatest gift and by the same token the greatest liab ility. how you handle them will rest in your conscience and our heart.


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## ErikH (May 26, 2005)

I don't agree that they are any more of a loaded gun than any other animal. Pits notably do very well in temperment tests, and most never have a problem. Sure, some dogs snap, but that happens with all breeds.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I have to admit, I'm getting extremely sick of hearing people say "What are you going to do when they turn on you?" "Now they have the taste of blood, there's no stopping them." Of course, there is no logic with these people, you can't tell them animal agression and human agression are different. You can't tell them this is one of the most people friendly breeds in the world. You can't tell them anything, because they're so full of shit logic just don't have any room in their heads. One lady I worked with was talking to me and she was like, "You're lucky, I know someone who raised a pit from a puppy and it just snapped and attacked them one day. You've just been lucky with yours." She's never mentioned this before, and she wouldn't tell me who she was talking about. And I was like, "Uh, no, those people were unlucky. They probably bought their dog from someone who doen't care anything about the breed. Most pit bulls have NO human agression. Look up the breed standards." I had a conversation with the same woman one time about tanning beds, She "knows" someone who had their insides microwaved. Of course, she couldn't remember who that was, either. There was no telling her that tanning beds and microwaves are totally different. Hello, I seen it on myth busters.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Now that I've ranted for a while, let me give you guys an update. Saturday, we noticed Mary Jane's wounds getting bigger. We called the vet, and they said that was normal, the dead skin had to come off before she could heal. Sunday, we woke up, and all of the skin around it had come off. There's just a big open wound on her chest. You can see the muscles. We called the vet again, and she said that was fine, all of the dead skin had to come off. She had an appt. Monday, and the vet told me to do her hydro therapy twice a day instead of once. She has just a little dead skin left, and that will have to come off before she can do anything. She gave us some spray to put on after the water therapy that helps keep the wound clean and helps the skin come off. She has another appt. Thursday, and they are going to sew up what they can. The vet said she may have to have a skin graff. 
Since all of the skin has came off, she feels so much better. She's all over the place, jumping and playing and happy. She just looks bad. And the wound really looks better. The first few days, the muscle underneath was really dark, now, it's pink. I know it sounds gross, but she's on her road to recovery!!!


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

when you say look up the history good point. the fact is they have A tenacity unequaled by anything short of A mongol warrior.the musculature and bite surpassed by only the hyena.I make these 2 references for A reason. on both accounts the 2 remain docile until the game begins. what triggers that will always be A mystery. you may think you know your pit. beware, extremely. I am and have had from 1-35 layig around the yard or house for the last 28 years. they are bar no-other the best animal walking in the dog kingdom. it is your responsibility they do not become extinct. all game men for the most part kill with immidiacy. it is A given for me. I do not wait for the strike of the snake I am warned by the rattle. as to loaded gun, strong yes, necessary yes.what would take most A while to destroy A pit will do in mere seconds. back to it's history.wake up realize what it is adress it and enjoy it. the american warrior the pit bull.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I certainly don't trust them the same as I used to. I don't think they would ever hurt me, but with other animals in the yard and strangers, I'll always be a lot more on guard. When they were fighting, they weren't my pets. They were wild animals fighting for their lives. I love them both, they are awsome dogs, I will always love them and do anything I can for them, but I've opened my eyes to the fact that sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. They are dogs and this is my home, and I'm going to make sure that I don't wake up to that again. Don't get me wrong, I still think of them as family and I'll still take the very best care of them I possibly can, but their safety is also my responsibility and if that means taking a few luxuries then so be it.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

they will always be family and that feeling is vital to our breed. manytimes when "bad" things happen many break and run, or jump ship.stick and stay.luck on all fronts.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Hey William, I like your views on the breed, your knowledge is priceless. I hope you stick around.
RE-dog
Dave


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

I plan too. I've done everything with a pit you can do(cep'n for sex ) hoggin, A little gaming, not alot.just enough to see what the dog had to offer. I've taken retired dogs and doled them out to A few farmers over the years. to watch the yard and chicken coop.showed A little, weight pulled some.It is the most versatile of dogs.my love.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

*update*

hello everybody. just wanted to give you an update. mary jane got her stitches thursday and stayed all night @ the vet. she came home yesterdday. now, she has to wear bandages. we went to the vet this mornin to get them changed. the vet showed me how to do it, but didn't give me the stuff to do it @ home yet. she wants to keep an eye on the stitches the first few days. maryjane goes back monday, and joe will learn how to do the bandages then. then, we'll start doing it @ home. she'll go back to the vet on friday, and the stitches may come out then, although the vet said they'll probably stay until next monday. then, back to the hydrotherapy for a while. when we went this morning, maryjane was so good in the car. then, she was so happy to get out. i opened the door to the vets office, and she started to prance right in. she looked to the left, then to the right, and jetted back outside. she knew exactly where she was and didn't like it.  
sadies is also doing really good. i think she might end up with a couple of scars on her face.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> I don't agree that they are any more of a loaded gun than any other animal. Pits notably do very well in temperment tests, and most never have a problem. Sure, some dogs snap, but that happens with all breeds


Im sorry but I dont agree. Owning a Pit is like owning a gun. A gun in the hands of a responsible owner isnt going to hurt anyone, however in the hands of an idiot it can be fatal. Pits are built to fight. Thats what they do, thats what they were for. They are warriors with warriors hearts. The way they fight is different also. If a German Shephard bites you he lets go and bites again. Not a Pit, he bites holds and shakes ripping whatever he holds. I dont advocate fighting but Ive seen alot of it over the years. If a Jack russel bites he isnt going to do the damage that a Pit will. So when our dogs "snap" they dont snap like other dogs.

While not all dogs are "gamebred" if you were to go back in their pedigree you will eventually find it. So remember what you own. LIke this incident here, they got along great until something triggered this response. ONce they respond in such manner they go into that mode and until you can break it up they will be the dogs that they were originally bred to be. That doesnt mean that once separated they will fight again but until they calm down and regain their witts they are ready to go at it. If you own more than one of these dogs sooner or later it will happen so be prepared and yes Have bite sticks and proper means to separate them when they lock up.


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## PittieLover (Oct 14, 2005)

*I disagree...*

They were never breed to just "fight"! :hammer: They were originally bred to bring down bulls, then that was outlawed. Then, the lower class people would fight them in the pits - hence "pit" and "bull" as in bull-baiting...


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

yeah Im clear on that but bull baiting isnt playing, its still a form of fighting, just not dogs. I live in cattle country and I know a stock contractor for rodeos that has always used pits to round up his bulls!


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## pinkpuppygirl (Mar 7, 2006)

I understand where you are coming from. My sister had come to stay with us for a while with her female pit bull Baby. My dog Margie and Baby got a long real great for the first few months. Then one night I came home and my nephew was outside trying to break Margie and Baby apart. I'm really glad that he knew what to do, because I was so freaked out. My dog was getting hurt. All Margie wanted to do was play with her and she didn't want to. I ended having to wrap Margie's leg for a few days, and the vet gave us some pain medication for her. The vet said that she had a cut right next to her left eye that if it would have been even a hair higher it would have got her eye and she would have been blinded in that eye. That really terrified me.
After that I had a really big fear of other dogs living with Margie. But after 18 months of living with Pepper, Margie is like her mother. The very first day we brought Pepper home, Margie was protecting her. Cleaning her, going everywhere with her, training her. Till this day, Pepper is everywhere with Margie. Margie has never snapped at Pepper in an aggressive way. There is still the feeling that Margie could snap at any second, and then Pepper. So, I really do understand how you feel.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

I agree with oldfort kennels!! If you train your dog to be bad, and fight, it will. It will be agressive. If not, the dog wont know too. If someone wants a pitbull to fight, it will fight or be mean, i guess. And i dont know about different blood lines, im not sure what they mean. Really to me a bloodline does not matter. Alot of people take great stock on their dogs bloodline (or nose colour) As far as i knew, they were all American Pitbulls? In exception of the American Stafordshire Terrier and the Stafordshire bull terrier. But i really know nothing about blood lines. I know that my dog Harley is Clouse Mayfield, and so is Pantera, but i really dont know what that means, like is that good or bad, i heard it was a show dog line. Oh my dogs are cousins by the way. But i really think that it really is the owners that have the dog, and what they do with it.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Pantera Im glad you enjoy your dogs but you should think about bloodlines. Blood determines in a great way the attitude and tempermant of the dog. Some dogs WILL be aggresive no matter if you train them to or not. Now adays we have Pits being bred for pets and house dogs and so the bloodlines have gotten loser and the gameness has been watered down in them. However if you get a dog that has strong "game" blood in his/her pedigree this animal will have a stronger disposition toward being animal/aggressive. Just to name a few popular ones, Colby,Jeep, Crenshaw, Watchdog, Tarver etc if you look at their pedigree and see that they have strong LINE BREEDING then those dogs will have a tendency to be "Gamey".

Now this beeing said, I know an Individual who does fight his dogs. He has about 40 dogs and is Big in the Underground world of fighting. NOW I IN NO WAY approve of this activity and see it as a no win situation for our breed. Sooner or later he will be in the news and that will only hurt our cause. All fighters, big or small, sooner or later end up getting caught. Anywas back to the point I was talking to him and he made a valid point in saying that he would rather have a gamebred dog because he at least knows what he is getting and knows its disposition. When you buy some of these show dogs with breeding all scattered you never really know how they are going to act. They can be sweet and gentle and loving for years until something triggers in thier head and some old blood takes over and they engage another dog or animal.

So in a long way Im just trying you and others to do some research on bloodlines and learn about the APBT history. I have found the more I read about this breed the more fascinated I am with them.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

pantera2006 said:


> I agree with oldfort kennels!! *If you train your dog to be bad, and fight, it will. It will be agressive. If not, the dog wont know too. If someone wants a pitbull to fight, it will fight or be mean, i guess*. And i dont know about different blood lines, im not sure what they mean. Really to me a bloodline does not matter. Alot of people take great stock on their dogs bloodline (or nose colour) As far as i knew, they were all American Pitbulls? In exception of the American Stafordshire Terrier and the Stafordshire bull terrier. But i really know nothing about blood lines. I know that my dog Harley is Clouse Mayfield, and so is Pantera, but i really dont know what that means, like is that good or bad, i heard it was a show dog line. Oh my dogs are cousins by the way. But i really think that it really is the owners that have the dog, and what they do with it.


You don't have to train a pitbull to know what to do in a fight. Sure, people fight them, and coax them, and "train" them, but they have a natural animal agression and a blood for the sport. We have never encouraged either of our dogs to be mean to any other animal, but whenever they both wanted that one piece of cake, niether was willing to back down and that wasn't pretty. I had never seen dogs fight like that before, and it isn't something that I want to see again. But, in a way I'm glad it happened. It was bad enough to show me what this breed is capable of and really open my eyes to what I have, but both of my girls will be fine. Had this not happened, we would have came home to a dead dog one of these days. Because, had someone not been here to stop it, they would have fought to the death. Period. I have read books and talked to "experts" and looked up websites, but I never trully understood their "Never say die," drive until I saw them fighting. I used those words all of the time when talking about the breed, but I didn't understand. "They never give up, they have a high pain tolerance, heart of a warrior, blah blah blah..."
And they do. Now, all of these traits are good for pulling and showing and therapy and playing, but you also have to understand what they mean if one of your dogs ever latches onto another animal. Even when we had this discussion with Tommy T I never disagreed with anything he said about what our breed is capable of, I just truly thought I would be here to stop it before it happens and if it ever got out of control I would know what to do to intervene. And I was wrong. I had saw small "confrontations" between them, but never a real fight and it is the scariest thing I have ever seen in my life. At that point, they are not your sweet baby that can be soothed and loved and petted and calmed. They are a wild animal with no desire other than to kill so that they can survive. Now, that doesn't mean they'll turn on a human or bite a person or hurt a child, that just means they cannot be trusted together or with other animals.


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## PittieLover (Oct 14, 2005)

*What?*

Just like with any dog - if you treat it bad, make it agreesive, then they will be mean and agressive. :snap: I know that pitbulls have more of a stamina when it comes to defending itself and a stronger will then most breeds, but in my opinion it doesn't matter. And bull-baiting is not a type of "fighting" it's a type of hunting. Just like hound dogs, beagles, golden retrievers and other hunting dogs they were breed to hunt certain animals; that does not mean it's a type of "fighting". So I would have to disagree with that comment. And also, I don't agree about the bloodline conversation. Just like with people, any dog can be mean, nice, shy - it's mostly their personality and the experiences in their life that impact what they are going to act like. But, if they are inbred and mixed with other breeds, than that is a whole different story in it's self. It's started to sound like people on here are stereotyping the pitbulls more and more as being a bad dog.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Just because you know what they are and what they can do doesn't mean your "stereotyping" them badly. It means that you know what you have. I don't think any less of my dogs because of what happened. Maybe your dogs will never fight. Maybe they'll never harm another living creature for as long as they live. But, isn't it better to understand that it is possible, and if it does happen, you are prepared for it and can stop it? Had I not been here, one of my dogs would be dead. Period. They cannot be trusted to live together anymore. They will have to be seperated. That's my responsibility to keep them both safe. It's true that any type of dog will fight given the right circumstances, but not all dogs are capable of the same damage our breed is. And not all dogs have the same breeding that our dogs have. A pit bull that is animal agressive isn't necissarily that way because of irresponsible breeding, inbreeding, or mix-breeding. That is a trait of our breed. 
I didn't post this to start an argument. I just wanted you all to know what happened to me. If you have this breed, then you need to have a breaking stick and not leave them alone together. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that it never will, and it is better to be prepared than not. I love pitbulls for what they are, but the things that we love the most about them (their will, ambition, unwillingness to give up) can also make them deadly. A well bred pit will never turn on a human, but they are very likely to fight other animals. And if you believe that inproper breeding is the reason for all things wrong with the breed, then you have to agree that bloodlines play a very important role in their lives. Just look at all of the dogs that have been rescued and go on to live happy lives that come from fighting and abusive backgrounds. If life circumstance were the only element in their nature, then these dogs would truly have no hope.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Smokey I hate that you had to experience this but it is an eye opener inst it. I was curious if while they were fighting if you physically tried to separate them of just yelled at them. The reason I ask is I find it amazing that so many people condem Pits as killers and yet when they are fighting you can walk in there grab them, separate them and not get bit by either dog!

I just reread your original post and see that indeed you did get physical with them, even hit them with a tide bottle and they still didnt turn on you even though they were in the heat of combat.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

ya, i got physical. i choked sadies. i threw things at them, i did everything that i could think of. since it happened, i have had a lot of people tell me things that i should have done, but @ the time i just didn't know. i got hysterical and just added to the problem. i should have had a breaking stick. i should have done a lot. i should have had them seperated and made sure that it couldn't have happened to begin with. but, before you can prevent something, you have to acknowledge that it is possible. i knew that pits were animal agressive, but maryjane has been around other dogs her whole life and sadies was just a puppy when we got her so we thought it would be ok since she had grown up with maryjane. now, when i go to he vet and get odd looks from people, or look @ maryjane's wounds, i have to live with the guilt that i could have prevented it and didn't. and people that don't know anything about the breed can't be reasoned with. they don't look @ what happened as my error, they just think it's the breed and ask what i'm going to do when they turn on me. like i've said before, you just can't reason with some people. what do you think that does for our breed's reputation? nothing positive, i'm sure. and i have to live with that. that's why i posted this, to let people know what happened to me and hope that if anyone was living the way i was they wouldn't just trust their dogs to never fight just because they never had. all i can do is promise to do everything i can to keep it from happening again. i truly didn't post this to start an argument. i just wanted to let everyone know that it happened.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ok cool, can you fill me in alittle about Clouse Mayfield line, ive looked and apparently that was the bloodline of petey the little rascles pitbull, i heard from a few breeders that its a good line of show dogs. Not sure though. So whatever ya know, fill me in!!!! Thanks!!!
up:


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ya you are right smoky!! I thought of that after i wrote that, my friends pitty is agresive with people and she does not train it the wrong way, or beat it. Its just mean!!! WTF? But then you get my dog Harley and he is the most nicest dog i know! Its been harley that has been attacked by other dogs, The first attack was an American eskimo, second was a shit zu!!! now if he really wanted too, he could chomp that dog and kill it, all he did was growl at it!!! The shit zu he got alittle mad, but i can control him, hes 70lbs, so if he wanted to, he could have killed them both!!! But then after the attacks it was going around that it was my dogs fault and he was mean!!! Well, i can tell ya this, he is the only dog that i trust, with my life, with my kids, with anything!!! I always say, a pitbull is the bestest friend that anyone could have!!!


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

i don't know anything about the clouse mayfield, although it seems like i've heard of it before so someone on here must. and you know a people agressive pit? i've honestly never met one of those. (thank god cause i'd probably poo my britches)  lol. and i would trust my dogs with my life, too. just like i said, if they were going to hurt me they would have done it that day. they were ready to kill something and there my dumb butt was choking them and beating them in the head and sticking crap in their mouthes. i just don't want anybody else to have to go through that.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Pantera

From what I can tell Clouse is a show bred dog.

Mayfield I know is old school game bred dogs originally from Don Mayfield. I dont know alot about the Clouse line but there is plenty on Mayfield. Just look up Don Mayfield. He has his own site if it hasnt been shut down.

http://www.donmayfield.com/1024/index.htm


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## PittieLover (Oct 14, 2005)

I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm not trying to make an arguement either. I'm glad that your sharing your experience with us Smokey Joe - I really am.  I'm just stating some opinions of mine and some of the things that I don't entirely agree with that's all. And about the whole stereotyping subject - that's just my observation. Nothing really meant by it; just something that I was thinking when I was posting the reply. :woof:


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Thanks very much!!! I'll find something on it, i hope!! Ya and about that dog, hes showing his teeth at his owner, and everyone now. Ive told her to get him checked but i think that she is denial!!! But i think i would be too!!! Its not something that i would want happen!!


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

PittieLover said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm not trying to make an arguement either. I'm glad that your sharing your experience with us Smokey Joe - I really am.  I'm just stating some opinions of mine and some of the things that I don't entirely agree with that's all. And about the whole stereotyping subject - that's just my observation. Nothing really meant by it; just something that I was thinking when I was posting the reply. :woof:


that's cool. every dog is different. everyone has their opinions on why things happen, and most are different. we're all here for the love of the breed.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

pantera2006 said:


> Thanks very much!!! I'll find something on it, i hope!! Ya and about that dog, hes showing his teeth at his owner, and everyone now. Ive told her to get him checked but i think that she is denial!!! But i think i would be too!!! Its not something that i would want happen!!


Is the dog chained up outside, or is it an inside dog? My boy Hannibal was a totally different dog when chained.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Nope, he stays inside all day and night! I dont know if this would have to do with anything, but his litter mate, a male, was taking by OSPCA because of being agressive, I heard it bit he owners? I dont know, i wasnt there. But they sold the dogs out of there house for only $100, No shots or vet checked. So they could have been inbreeding, who knows!!! She has no idea about the pedigree at all, or even if it is a purebred pitbull, which, i dont think that he is. i think her dog is on rate my pitbull, his name is buddah. If anyone sees him, let me know what ya think.


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