# American pit bull terriers



## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

I really wanna know how are these dogs called or known as American breed or American Pit Bull Terriers when the origin of these dogs come from other countries? I Love the hell out the breed but just wondering.I clearly do not know what most of you guys do (the ones that arw knowledgeable).I'm learning more every day I come on here but something has me wondering.The name American Pit Bull Terrier like where did it come from did Americans put their own spin on the dog and then it became recognized by Kennel clubs? I have no problem being corrected nor educated but didn't these dogs breeding originally take place in places like Ireland and so on?


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

They are called *American (pit) Bull Terriers*(that is how it was originally spelled, to indicate the purpose, "pit" dogs) because that is what they are.
The breed was developed and became the top fighting dogs in the world.
The various fighting breeds from the world over were brought here to become a single breed eventually.
Just as today, anyone born in America is a U.S. citizen, and the majority of Americans are mixed races.
I myself only care for the *Old Family Red Nose Strain*, which preserves the blood of the *Old Family Reds,* a fighting breed now extinct that came from Ireland.
They were crossed with other premier fighting dogs here, black nose, but their genetics were preserved by breeding red nose to red nose dogs.

America has made improvements on everything that was brought to this country,
from horses, cattle, racing dogs, etc.
It was the same with pit dogs. The various fighting breeds linked together to become a single breed today.
The OFRN strain are ApBT's, just a separate strain....but they are still one breed.

Hope this makes sense....


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes they were derived from Old English BullDog's and some terriers. The bull dog was used for bull baiting. The APBT was created only for fighting, contrary to public belief the "nanny" dog came to exist as a term in the 1980's. Prior to that there is no record of then being called or refereed to as such. 

The "new" bulldog was created by crossing the Olde English Bulldog with terriers and you have smaller, more agile dogs. The ADBA was born before that to have a place to match dogs and back in the day points were given on matches won not conformation or weight pull sicne the UKC didnt recognioze that type of point system. The UKC first allowed APBT to be resistered the late 1890's. The AKC refused to acknowledge that an APBT could be anything but a fighting dog so they refused to accept and allow them to be considered a breed. The in the 1930's the AKC DID allow dogs bred specifically for their look, not their purpose to be registered and American Staffodshire Terriers were born, since there dogs were not bred for fighting alone. 

Not sure of that helped you at all. Thats how I understand it anyway...


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

ames said:


> Yes they were derived from the Old English Bull Dog and some terriers. The bull dog was used for bull baiting. The APBT was created only for fighting, contrary to public belief the "nanny" dog came to exist as a term in the 1980's. Prior to that there is no record of then being called or refereed to as such.
> 
> The "new" bulldog was created by crossing the Olde English Bulldog with terriers and you have smaller, more agile dogs. The ADBA was born before that to have a place to match dogs and back in the day points were given on matches won not conformation or weight pull sicne the UKC didnt recognioze that type of point system.


Don't know where you got that crazy idea, but they were NOT derived AT ALL from the Old English Bulldog. (Or the extinct English white terrier)
Fighting dogs that are in the ApBT breed were around before Staffordshire's even existed as well.
They were in the USA as far back as the mid 1700's. 
Some claim the ApBT was the Original Bulldog.

And yes, their conformation was proven by mortal combat, not a show ring.
This is why, until the 1976 Animal Welfare Act, the breed was without doubt the healthiest breed of dog.
Only the healthiest of dogs had the ability to match. If their illness wasn't found before hand they would not have survived the [].
There were no chains for a sick or a cold dog. Animal shelters were non-existent, because a bad health dog wasted money, and ruined a breeders reputation.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Just in the history books I have picked up. What other bull dog is there in England other then the Olde English Bulldog?? lol The originally Bull dog was from England hence the name. Not trying to argue with you, but they came from the UK to America where they were perfected and became the APBT, not the other way around.


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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

'Olde English Bulldogges' are a relatively new breed. They took the English bulldog and bred them with American bulldogs to create a dog with the look, health, and athleticism of the original bull-baiting dogs, but with a much less aggressive temperament.

So, not the olde English bulldogge..

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Kwhitaker0604 said:


> 'Olde English Bulldogges' are a relatively new breed. They took the English bulldog and bred them with American bulldogs to create a dog with the look, health, and athleticism of the original bull-baiting dogs, but with a much less aggressive temperament.
> 
> So, not the olde English bulldogge..


This is the same history I know of for the Olde bulldogs, developed after the APBT from my understanding. From what I know the Olde's purpose was to "clean up" OE bulldogs. They took OE and bred them to American Bulldogs to rid the horrid faults of the OE.

It was also my understanding the APBT was developed in England and then came here. American by name, but not by production.

When bull baiting ceased men used the dogs for fighting and then over time with other breeds developed the supreme gladiator we have now. All before they came to America.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

ames said:


> Just in the history books I have picked up. What other bull dog is there in England other then the Olde English Bulldog?? lol The originally Bull dog was from England hence the name. Not trying to argue with you, but they came from the UK to America where they were perfected and became the APBT, not the other way around.


My point was that England did not create the fighting dogs brought here to this country.
They once controlled over half the world, and picked up various dog breeds to bring home, Just as the Romans did.
Before the Cruelty to Animals Act of 1835 ban on bull baiting there were already fighting dogs in America.
I agree with FH on the fact the Spanish had an influence on modern fighting dogs.
This shows that there were multiple fighting breeds from different backgrounds used to develop fighting dogs.
They were not all from England. The Old Family Reds of Ireland prove that as well.
Records indicate they made the gameness of the best of the modern game dogs pale in comparison.

On a side note, my sisters best friend has some Olde English Bulldogs.
They are new in comparison to many breeds, and are not at all athletic.
They have no bite, the puggish faces with pushed in noses (hard to breathe), and have little to no agility. 
Most of all, they are total curs....just pet and show dogs nothing more. 
Any of the newer bulldogs, barring the American, are non-working dogs, hardly a resemblance of fighting dogs.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> It was also my understanding the APBT was developed in England and then came here. American by name, but not by production.
> 
> When bull baiting ceased men used the dogs for fighting and then over time with other breeds developed the supreme gladiator we have now. All before they came to America.


As I said earlier, here in America we made everything better.
It was the breeding of the best fighting dogs imported from around the world, 
as well as with the ones already here (as early as the 1700's), 
that created the ApBT, the ultimate [] warrior the world had ever known.
That is why it is an American creation, and why knowledgable men world wide give America credit.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

So of all these fighting dog in different areas, did they share similar looks and traits? I mean dog that were developed separately, wondering if they still ended up as the same "type" I guess would be the right word. Kind of hard to explain what I am asking.

Places all over the world have drawings of "alien" type figures even those these countries were not in contact. 

So did the dogs develop the same even with separation of areas?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Im sure someone will beat me to it since i work third shift and not at a computer however the old terrier and bulldog crossing opinion is incorrect.. This was a rumor due to the Terrier and Bull in the name American Pit Bull Terrier so assumed the name implied the two as a foundation. In fact many Terrier dogs have the original fighting dog in their own foundation if you trace back pedigree, history, etc.

The fighting dog of gaul holds the roots of APBT, is the APBT of the 1800s and on the original Bulldog? Not in exact form however the genetics are the same of that animal. The frame work is in other words. So yes you could say the APBT is the original Bulldog if you alter and skew functions slightly as before matching took hold for pure function you had the Bull Baiters of which was just prior the pit dog which is the same animal.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Goemon said:


> As I said earlier, here in America we made everything better.
> It was the breeding of the best fighting dogs imported from around the world,
> as well as with the ones already here (as early as the 1700's),
> that created the ApBT, the ultimate [] warrior the world had ever known.
> That is why it is an American creation, and why knowledgable men world wide give America credit.


OK, They had to be bred from SOMEthing originally right??? They didn't just start by themselves in the 1700's, what were the breeds brought to American that evolved to the APBT?



KMdogs said:


> Im sure someone will beat me to it since i work third shift and not at a computer however the old terrier and bulldog crossing opinion is incorrect.. This was a rumor due to the Terrier and Bull in the name American Pit Bull Terrier so assumed the name implied the two as a foundation. In fact many Terrier dogs have the original fighting dog in their own foundation if you trace back pedigree, history, etc.
> 
> The fighting dog of gaul holds the roots of APBT, is the APBT of the 1800s and on the original Bulldog? Not in exact form however the genetics are the same of that animal. The frame work is in other words. So yes you could say the APBT is the original Bulldog if you alter and skew functions slightly as before matching took hold for pure function you had the Bull Baiters of which was just prior the pit dog which is the same animal.


Understood functions and form are different in the breeds. But the actual breeds used were what then? It didnt come out of no where. If if the bulldog and terrier were not the foundation breeds back i the day, what was??? lol

Shit you all messing me all up now, I thought I had it down! Give me some research that backs what ya'll are saying cause I would love to read more about it. Nothing I have read even remotely suggest these dogs were not bred down from british dogs brought to the states and then breeding purpose changed.


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## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

Thank you all so much for your feed back and it was very helpful and much appreciated.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

doughboi said:


> Thank you all so much for your feed back and it was very helpful and much appreciated.


shit how are you not as confused as me now  lol


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

UKC ... coined the breed American Pit Bull Terrier for all bulldog, pit dog, bandogs that could win twice in the pit; it was registered in the UKC as an American Pit Bull Terrier.. So in early times if your American Pit Bull Terrier was registered everyone knew it was a REAL "Pit" Bulldog/bull terrier. The REAL bulldog was thrown into the pit and forever dubbed "Pit" Bull.... 

KM .. goodpost...


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

The origin of this breed is debatable.


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## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

*



ames said:


> shit how are you not as confused as me now  lol


Well they are basically saying other that OE dogs that APBT were from all over and created from terriers and bulldog. I have a supervisor that has stated what everyone else has as well.He was trained and taught by well not sure if consider a dog man but a guy name Ed Barboro.But yea reading what has been posted on here and just talking to my friend I get a understanding of why the dog is called apbt that was the only thing I was pondering about


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Saint Francis said:


> The origin of this breed is debatable.


I would disagree with that statement, at one point in time id agree with you and certainly you get different opinions on where these dogs came from however there is more than enough supporting evidence for the truth.. You cant disprove genetics particuarly.

Edit: no idea why that face is there on my post lol


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I got it off. Hit edit post, and go advanced. That's where you can change to no icon if one gets hit.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

doughboi said:


> *
> 
> Well they are basically saying other that OE dogs that APBT were from all over and created from terriers and bulldog. I have a supervisor that has stated what everyone else has as well.He was trained and taught by well not sure if consider a dog man but a guy name Ed Barboro.But yea reading what has been posted on here and just talking to my friend I get a understanding of why the dog is called apbt that was the only thing I was pondering about


That's what I said and others disagreed without actually saying what the foundations breeds were.

Maybe I'm just drunk.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> I would disagree with that statement, at one point in time id agree with you and certainly you get different opinions on where these dogs came from however there is more than enough supporting evidence for the truth.. You cant disprove genetics particuarly.
> 
> Edit: no idea why that face is there on my post lol


I have yet to find anything in any of the literature I have that DEFINITIVELY answers the question on origin. Times change, and so does technology, but the opinions still vary. Everything is debatable.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Not really.. this is where its simple... all dogs come from wolf decent some wolf / jackal (coyote) cross.. GSD for example ...

Wolf .. Species Canis Lupis
Dog .. sub species Canis Lupis (first human controlled breeding of wolves for a working purpose)
Bulldog ... Bull and Terrier dog.... strain ( Bulldog in origin came from inbreeding the Alaunt which came directly from fighting dog of Gaul.. PIT (smooth haired) terriers orginated from inbreeding pit bulldogs.. The first bandogs or mastiff were from the same pit bulldogs being bred back to other stock down from the Gaul family of dogs essentially.) 
APBT, AST, SBT, AB,Dogo, Bandog, .. sub strain (colby and OF/OFRN responsible for two of those alone)

A REAL DNA test will show you that all of those are one in the same breed.. so that means we are all wrong again. That APBT and SBT are sub strains of the Bulldog or Bull and Terrier family .. take your pick. It goes back to the 1400s as a pure strain .. which means as far as anything other than inuit bred dogs and those down from them, they are the oldest pedigreed purebred dog in the world.. KEPT together by that four letter word.. GAME

FOOD for THOUGHT:
The terrier is a mutation of the bulldog mutation.. while all the traits isolated on one side .. all the other isolated on the other.. I've shown many pics, as you a'll have seen on your on account all the pictures and documentation of bulldog bullbiter bearbiter .. and before they went into the [] they were all one stock down from Gaul imports. After the [] the were all inbred more and more and more.. .. more and more and more.. and today.. more and more and more.. The 60lbs [] dog as we know of has been around for at least 1500 yrs.. I've noted there is Native American and Historical documentation of bulldogs being here from the spanish in the 1400s.. A true DNA test will show you every block. They keep the genuine APBT strain under wraps on the media politically its better to sell or dispair and horror than historical truth that will ad a WORLD of truth and understanding. FOR EXAMPLE.. they already have DNA evidence on Sasquatch.. already caught one.. Came up as the having all the human chromosomes and one more.. identical to chimpanzee... <your not going to hear about that you have to dig). The APBT is a political nightmare.. As all the US Presidents between 1800-FDR had a FOND love for bulldogs, bullterriers, pit terriers, pit bulldogs, pit bull terriers.. etc.. 4 owned them in white house.. FDR had a [] on the grounds.. 4 inside 4 outside.. They keep the WWII slogans as mum as possible because they dont want AMERICA to realize that the APBT strain of bulldog is AMERICAN symbolism, as the dog is an immigrant and down from so are most Americans.. What a honest symbol of couragesness, willingness to work hard and achieve monumental goals.........


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Not really.. this is where its simple... all dogs come from wolf decent some wolf / jackal (coyote) cross.. GSD for example ...
> 
> Wolf .. Species Canis Lupis
> Dog .. sub species Canis Lupis (first human controlled breeding of wolves for a working purpose)
> ...


:goodpost: Had to work over time, 9 hours back to work.. Gotta love the ..

And in case anyone perhaps didn't connect, the few of us that mention time and time again, "All Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven" stems from Stans post, specifically *( Bulldog in origin came from inbreeding the Alaunt which came directly from fighting dog of Gaul.. PIT (smooth haired) terriers orginated from inbreeding pit bulldogs.. The first bandogs or mastiff were from the same pit bulldogs being bred back to other stock down from the Gaul family of dogs essentially.)* should shed some more light to this.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

I just figured that because the APBT was perfected not in Europe but here in America is why we call them an American dog. IF these dogs were not brought in the 1700s (or whenever it was they were brought) they would not be the dog they are today. 
That's my simple analysis of it.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Not really.. this is where its simple... all dogs come from wolf decent some wolf / jackal (coyote) cross.. GSD for example ...
> 
> Wolf .. Species Canis Lupis
> Dog .. sub species Canis Lupis (first human controlled breeding of wolves for a working purpose)
> ...


All I'm saying is that the books in my possession all contain various theories on the exact origin, whether Stratton or other. And I'm quite sure that these educated fanciers did their homework as well, so as not to just throw out some "hairbrained" theories that were off base. Hell, I'm looking at a theory right now that suggests that the APBT is a direct descendant of the "ancient hunting dogs" whereby it evolved from such to "killer hounds" to Molossus, Mastiff, and bandog to Bulldog to Pit Bull Terrier to finally the APBT. Then there are the paintings and ancient artwork dating pre Egyptian era that strongly resemble the current stock lending support to yet another theory. As far as the DNA side of the story, it is very intriguing, but when this same science suggests that humans and rats share 90% or more of the same genes, 80% or more being direct counterparts, and states that all mammals stem from a "rat like" creature over 100 million years ago... I start to wonder what is being proven here given how different the subjects are in their current state. Even the fruit fly shares something like 60%+ of the same genes as humans. Then again I fully admit that genetics are not my bag and I could be missing something here I suppose it's not what the APBT descended from that is in debate, whether wolf or probably something much, much older, but rather what cross created the APBT...or if it resulted from a direct lineage from something ancient that stirs the debate. You know darn well that ten years from now another theory will arise...it's just the nature of things LOL.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

all the pieces fit as I seen them fall away~ 

You make valid points, however your answers to your debates are in the validity of your truth and truth itself. Interpretation and misinterpretation are life and death of understanding wisdom and attaining esoteric knowledge.. 

When I open the books all up, and all the history books from college well, I see a common bond in many facets..  

Rabit.. your pretty much key on.. American dogmen perfected the scientific method of proving game in dogs. Cajun Rules... Used worldwide still today.... outside the U.S. and westernized countries. The "PIT" bulldog or bull and terrier was perfected here because game has no physical attribute and the conformation that comes with the game mentality is the package of dog you get...... Dont think they didnt fight wolves, mastiffs, and so on.. the fighting dog was almost near perfected, if there is such a thing; in this country I agree with that.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

OK so that's what I said, its goes back to the old bulldogs from England. So I am unsure what the issue was with how it was written. The APBT didn't just come to exist in American on its own had bulldogs in its foundation breeds.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> So of all these fighting dog in different areas, did they share similar looks and traits? I mean dog that were developed separately, wondering if they still ended up as the same "type" I guess would be the right word. Kind of hard to explain what I am asking.
> 
> Places all over the world have drawings of "alien" type figures even those these countries were not in contact.
> 
> So did the dogs develop the same even with separation of areas?


I named no specific breeds because there really weren't any *specific* as they are called breeds today.
Dogs were bred for a purpose, not a "show" dog, nor a "pet bull" or "poopsie doodles.
If the dogs couldn't perform the tasks they were given, they were dead, not worth a thing.

NOBODY, not even the athiest scientists who are so stupid they think the world has been around 100 million years,
can give a specific origin of any given breed of dog from the beginning. 
It all comes down to people who voice their opinions.
Let them bring their opinions to the [], where only one thing matters. Then the true light of a dog is shown.
The majority that put their opinions on the block have never done a thing to prove them.

For any newbies who may be reading this, the history doesn't really matter today.
97% of Americans today shun the very thought of fighting dogs, and the sport they are superior in. So why do they even want this breed? Or call their dogs what they are not?
American (pit) Bull Terriers are American because we created the breed the way it is today.
It was done by crossing the best of the fighting dogs from around the world.
They were not developed by any single breeds of dogs.
The dogs that founded the ApBT are now extinct in their pure form.
Just as the Olde English Bulldog is a new breed, and nothing like the original bulldog found in England, so in no way did it contribute to the ApBT.
They were developed from staffs. (The Olde English Bulldogs)

Whatever people think sounds best and impresses them is what they will believe.
We all waste our time, as none of us are experts on this, trying to give theories of the origin.
But I'm sticking to what I heard, from the men who come from families who matched the dogs for generations, over any word of those who never have.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

OMG Stan I can't believe you brought up the Bigfoot evidence :woof: I saw some crazy documentary on that and was telling a friend, who now thinks I'm crazy lol. You watch within the next 20 years were gunna have Bigfoot zoos lol


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Goemon said:


> I named no specific breeds because there really weren't any *specific* as they are called breeds today.
> Dogs were bred for a purpose, not a "show" dog, nor a "pet bull" or "poopsie doodles.
> If the dogs couldn't perform the tasks they were given, they were dead, not worth a thing.
> 
> ...


many valid points, but I think AMES was talking about the TRUE old English Bulldog.. NOT this MUTT dog they tossed together to create the same old world bulldog I created without leaving ADBA registered dogs... per Turk.. '
As far as the SBT the AST and the APBT all had the same origin of stock right off the boat.. the APBT was the only one soley based on [] validity alone until 1976.







The dogs branched off and the SBT has winners still registered as SBT just pre 76 as do ASTs but both primarily wanted to leave the [] behind however a few knew this was devisating to the "breed".. GOEMAN.. Breed was BLOODLINE back then when they didn't have "Breeds" thats when theyd say what bloodline of dog do you have: hound, bulldog, so on.. Personal and Political propaganda changes everything in how we view things if we can't see through to the truth. In many of your posts I find where you simply back up genetic and historical evidence and fact.

The American Pit Bull Terrier is the ORIGINAL bulldog ... task, function, and DNA wise.... Period.

The USA perfected scientific method of proving game in dogs. That is the only controlled environment where two dogs willingly test into each other and where the term GAME and NO CURS ALLOWED for all of man kind originated.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> many valid points, but I think AMES was talking about the TRUE old English Bulldog.. NOT this MUTT dog they tossed together to create the same old world bulldog I created without leaving ADBA registered dogs... per Turk.. '
> As far as the SBT the AST and the APBT all had the same origin of stock right off the boat.. the APBT was the only one soley based on [] validity alone until 1976.
> 
> 
> ...


exactly... I was not talking about the breed old English bull dog I should have been more clear...


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