# Sticky  Examples of structure and faults



## performanceknls

This thread will show examples of structure the good and the bad. So this thread does not get out of control with pictures of everyones dogs there will only be a few dogs posted at a time. Feel free to comment the good and the bad you see on the dogs. Any posts with pictures that were not approved will be deleted, we want to focus on only a few dogs at a time and hopefully it should be educational and fun.

To offer photos please post here
http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/28793-photos-structure-faults.html

Here is a pictures that show different parts of a dogs body if you are not clear on what we are talking about.









I will start with dogs that show under the APBT standard

Tempest

















Minor Faults
Tempest could use more drop in chest, her chest does not come all the way down to her elbows so it is a little shallow.

Her shoulders are a little straight and it does affect the way she turns in agility. Especially in UKC straight shoulders are becoming more common and breeders really need to pay attention to them because they effect the movement of the dogs.

Now the good parts of her structure
She is balanced overall and square
Nice head
Great front and pasterns everything straight and in line
Great angulation in the rear and nice tail set


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## performanceknls

Here is a great example of a poor front, now she is not an APBT but this shows a good view of an obvious fault.









She does not have straight bone in the front and the legs are bowed out she also is easty/west ( or E/W ) meaning the feet point opposite directions and not straight. This also can be referred to as a fiddle front, when the legs bow out really bad and the feet are E/W.


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## bluefamily

*educational*

OK teach... I am listening and learning.... I have read the conformation info but that doesn't mean I can picture what exactly the faults are in my mind's eye. Next...:clap:


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## performanceknls

I am still learning too so if someone sees a fault I did not discuss on these dogs please feel free to jump in or if you disagree with a mentioned fault or attribute. When I get home from Sch today I will post more dogs.


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## performanceknls

This is Onyx and a younger dog at 7 months so still maturing.







Onyx 7 mos old here










I used these pictures to show a dog who is long in the back and not square. The dog is over stacked in the rear so it does make her look longer than she might be but APBT's in UKC and ADBA should be square, as long as they are tall.

This is Justice and she is a little short backed and short in the loin area, she has the opposite of the dog above. Over all everything is nice and balanced but short in the loin.


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## aimee235

How long exactly should the loin be in comparison with the rest of the body?


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## performanceknls

humm good question I will have to ask Cheryl unless someone else knows. Even pictures are hard to learn from I have been getting hands on help from several ADBA judges and that is what really helps to see and feel what they are talking about.


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## coppermare

Ok, got it and it is about the same as horses. Like the shoulder you mentioned. A straight shoulder makes quite a jolt when they run. The more angled the shoulder the more reach they have. It should be a 45 degree angle. A plumb line from the point of the buttocks should ideally touch the point of the hock and run along the cannon bone, falling just behind the heel at the ground. From the rear, the plumb line from the point of the buttock should evenly bisect the entire limb and hoof. (sorry foot) "The basic premise is that strain and concussion will be concentrated where there is a change of direction in the plumb line where it deviates from it. Is this true with dogs???
I see the dog that's long in the back...got that one. But the dog you say is short in the back. Can't see that one. Again, with horses, ideally, the length of a horse's back from the peak of the withers to the point of the hip should be 1/3 of the horse's overall body length (from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttock, excluding head and neck). Thinking of it that way, does that dog still look short to you???


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## aus_staffy

coppermare said:


> Ok, got it and it is about the same as horses. Like the shoulder you mentioned. A straight shoulder makes quite a jolt when they run. The more angled the shoulder the more reach they have. It should be a 45 degree angle. A plumb line from the point of the buttocks should ideally touch the point of the hock and run along the cannon bone, falling just behind the heel at the ground. From the rear, the plumb line from the point of the buttock should evenly bisect the entire limb and hoof. (sorry foot) "The basic premise is that strain and concussion will be concentrated where there is a change of direction in the plumb line where it deviates from it. Is this true with dogs???
> I see the dog that's long in the back...got that one. But the dog you say is short in the back. Can't see that one. Again, with horses, ideally, the length of a horse's back from the peak of the withers to the point of the hip should be 1/3 of the horse's overall body length (from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttock, excluding head and neck). Thinking of it that way, does that dog still look short to you???


It's only very slight. I wouldn't have picked it up either but once it's pointed out it really stands out. They should be as long as they are tall. If you measure how tall she is, she needs a tiny bit more length.


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## performanceknls

Yes structure and how it effects dog is the same as horses for the most part and a lot of horse ppl are great at looking at dog because they have dog it with horses. I love horse ppl because a lot of movement and structure plays a huge part and they are a head of the curve. Like in agility I love it when the students have a lot of horse experience then they know what a lead change means! lol

Yeah Justice is short in the loin and a little short in the back not real bad and the fact that rear leg is over extended make to harder to see. You want to measure from the top of the shoulders to the back of the loin area and you can she she is a little short. That is one reason it has been harder to get her Grand CH. She is one of my dogs and you can really see it in person.


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## coppermare

aus_staffy said:


> It's only very slight. I wouldn't have picked it up either but once it's pointed out it really stands out. They should be as long as they are tall. If you measure how tall she is, she needs a tiny bit more length.


I see it now that you said it that way....thanks, see how this thread does educate us? LOL:woof:


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## performanceknls

Here is a great example of a dog who lack rear angulation. If you look at the stifle and hock area (look at the diagram above if you do not know where that is) you will see there is little angulation they are basically straight up and down. This really effects movement and can cause joint problems as they age.










Here is a picture of a dog with good angulation.I know it is a puppy but you can see the difference in the rear end.


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## davidfitness83

performanceknls said:


> Here is a great example of a dog who lack rear angulation. If you look at the stifle and hock area (look at the diagram above if you do not know where that is) you will see there is little angulation they are basically straight up and down. This really effects movement and can cause joint problems as they age.
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> Here is a picture of a dog with good angulation.I know it is a puppy but you can see the difference in the rear end.


How much will the lack of angulation affect the dog? I know there are mastiff dogs that have it, I know we are judging the apbt but I'd still like to know.. I wanna post up bernie for you so you can judge it. I know for a fact his rear angulation is not good, he is cowhocked and his neck is not long enough. Plus the lack of angulation in the rear gives the impression of a high back..


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## performanceknls

It depends on the dog how it effects them, I see it in movement they do not have good push from the rear when running or jumping so range of motion is less. My boston terrier gets really stiff and he is really straight in the rear and over time that can really affect the dog.


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## HappyPuppy

Very interesting - thanks for the pix and explanations!


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## meganc66

Oh man! I never knew what you meant when you would say that they were lacking in rear angulation but i can totally see it now! Lovin this thread!


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## Saint Francis

Hey Lisa, I've been browsing some 15 year old Gazette issues and see many dogs with "longer backs". Is this not considered a very substantial fault, or is the ADBA more lenient than the UKC? Also, please go to Cheryl's(?) site and on the homepage to the far right, that female appears long backed. Thanks


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN

is it a fault for the back feet to be wider set then the front?
bouncer








jozey both stand a little wider in the rear then the front








heck all my dogs kinda do


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## bahamutt99

The dog is supposed to move in the same "plane" both front and back. So yes, having a narrower front than a rear (or vice versa) would be considered less desireable. When a dog is moving at you, you shouldn't see the rear legs framed by the front, or the reverse.


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## cEElint

performanceknls said:


> It depends on the dog how it effects them, I see it in movement they do not have good push from the rear when running or jumping so range of motion is less.


yea.. Dre can run, but he cant quite keep up w/ Daisy.. he also has trouble jumping..


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN

bahamutt99 said:


> The dog is supposed to move in the same "plane" both front and back. So yes, having a narrower front than a rear (or vice versa) would be considered less desireable. When a dog is moving at you, you shouldn't see the rear legs framed by the front, or the reverse.


ok thanks. they move on the same plain when they walk but they stand wider in the back like its more comfortable or something


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## bahamutt99

It is not the worst fault, though. Both my girls stand a little wider in the rear than the front. Loki is narrow in her chest and does it much more noticeably if I allow it. she will stand with her front feet about 2" apart. Terra, for all she's got a "cathedral" chest doesn't do it as much as she does. I would not say its even an issue with the first dog pictured; there difference isn't that great.


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## performanceknls

Saint Francis said:


> Hey Lisa, I've been browsing some 15 year old Gazette issues and see many dogs with "longer backs". Is this not considered a very substantial fault, or is the ADBA more lenient than the UKC? Also, please go to Cheryl's(?) site and on the homepage to the far right, that female appears long backed. Thanks


The ADBA is more lenient in many things when it come to the standard but they also have slightly different standards between ADBA and UKC. I personally like longer backed dogs (if it is not too long) they turn better when they work. I think Cheryl has some that are longer backed and so do I but you want to breed them to a nice square male.

Most of these faults that are posted are not major disqualifying faults and you will see dogs who are CH's with these faults. They are faults however there is not perfect dog in the world, all dogs have faults some are just worse than others. A good example is ppl said I would never be able to show Typhoon in the ADBA with that bad of an under bite and I mean it is bad! She wins or places at just about every show she goes to be cause she is so balanced everywhere else. If she was not blue I think I could have finished her CH already.


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## Saint Francis

performanceknls said:


> The ADBA is more lenient in many things when it come to the standard but they also have slightly different standards between ADBA and UKC. I personally like longer backed dogs (if it is not too long) they turn better when they work. I think Cheryl has some that are longer backed and so do I but you want to breed them to a nice square male.
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> Most of these faults that are posted are not major disqualifying faults and you will see dogs who are CH's with these faults. They are faults however there is not perfect dog in the world, all dogs have faults some are just worse than others. A good example is ppl said I would never be able to show Typhoon in the ADBA with that bad of an under bite and I mean it is bad! She wins or places at just about every show she goes to be cause she is so balanced everywhere else. If she was not blue I think I could have finished her CH already.


Lisa, you just touched upon something that I don't want to become apart of this thread, but is worth mentioning. Judge bias. As they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", correct?


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## MY MIKADO

Yes beauty is in the eye of the behold but from my understanding the reason blue dogs do not wn as much is the fact that blue is consider an Am Staff colouring. I might be wrong about this tho.


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## coppermare

The GSD world has the same bias against solid blacks....Things run if fads also in the show world. Take notice.


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## performanceknls

well politics will always play a role in dog shows not matter what venue and it is unfortunate. All a conformation show really is, is someones opinion of your dog. I was at the UKC show in Colorado and the most horrible looking dog took best of breed and BIS because the person showing the dog was a fellow UKC judge. That dog did not fit the breed standard and it was sad to see.

Ok back on topic! lol


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## truepits92

MY MIKADO said:


> Yes beauty is in the eye of the behold but from my understanding the reason blue dogs do not wn as much is the fact that blue is consider an Am Staff colouring. I might be wrong about this tho.


UKC says that AM staffs have to have black noses, lips and around the eyes. So no blue isn't an am staff color. thats why when you get an AKC judge in the ring at an ADBA he over looks alot of the red dogs and chocolate dogs and blue dogs with diffrent pigment because anything but black pigment is a discual in amstaffs and am bull staff


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## Sadie

It's not genetically possible for a blue dog to have a black nose. Blue dogs have blue noses!


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## truepits92

Sadie said:


> It's not genetically possible for a blue dog to have a black nose. Blue dogs have blue noses!


Thats my point. They get looked over because of their pigment. A judge who is only firmilliar with AKC standards of amstaffs or ambull staffs look at dogs with blue and red pigment like a joke.


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## American_Pit13

truepits92 said:


> UKC says that AM staffs have to have black noses, lips and around the eyes. So no blue isn't an am staff color. thats why when you get an AKC judge in the ring at an ADBA he over looks alot of the red dogs and chocolate dogs and blue dogs with diffrent pigment because anything but black pigment is a discual in amstaffs and am bull staff


Blue is and Amstaff color as well as an ABPT color. Anything that produces black can produce blue.. The UKC also doesn't register the Amstaff the AKC does and they are the ones that say the nose is to be defiantly black. However the AKC does not hold to it standards as many AKC Amstaffs have made CH and GRCH that are blue.

CH. Kan Trace Uriah Heep









CH Mt. Brier's Almost A Valentine


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## Patch-O-Pits

truepits92 said:


> Thats my point. They get looked over because of their pigment. A judge who is only firmilliar with AKC standards of amstaffs or ambull staffs look at dogs with blue and red pigment like a joke.


 From my understanding that part of the standard was done more so because AKC didn't want RED Nose dogs associated with the AmStaffs standard. Blue is a dilute of black so not preferred but still pretty much accepted accepted by most judges. Blue dogs with good solid pigment can have dark eyes and their noses almost appear very close to black though they aren't black. Where as a red nose dog in AKC is totally frowned upon. Though I do know AKC lines that ave produced them they are usually culled out right, but in pet homes, or in the past put into UKC show homes(When the UKC still allowed AmStaffs to be registered as APBTs). You have to remember that color is only one part of the AKC standard.


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## Rudy4747

Saint Francis said:


> Hey Lisa, I've been browsing some 15 year old Gazette issues and see many dogs with "longer backs". Is this not considered a very substantial fault, or is the ADBA more lenient than the UKC? Also, please go to Cheryl's(?) site and on the homepage to the far right, that female appears long backed. Thanks


Acutually the UKC is more apt to allow a longer back. This web site is great to learn about the differences in the two standards.
American Pit Bull Terrier Network Height vs Length Study


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## rodrigo

the matter is rather simple.

do you want the dog to look perfect or do you want it to be perfect. 


think about it.


(i think if we are to honor this breeds main root which is a work dog.....then we should think slightly longer is the desirable trait therefore the standard since this is about physical performance.)

I think that is a pretty honest assessment of the debate.


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## king_leonidas

The dogs pictured above look far from APBT's? And all these pictures show dogs with cropped ears, I didn't think people did that with APBTs just mailys Am. Staff and Am. Bullies?

J/W. On my other forum you wont find a true APBT with a crop job unless it's an UKC dog aka Am. Bully or is its Am. Staff.


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## Indie

king_leonidas said:


> The dogs pictured above look far from APBT's? And all these pictures show dogs with cropped ears, I didn't think people did that with APBTs just mailys Am. Staff and Am. Bullies?
> 
> J/W. On my other forum you wont find a true APBT with a crop job unless it's an UKC dog aka Am. Bully or is its Am. Staff.


The dogs above are AKC registered Am Staffs. I own a UKC registered APBT.. who is far from an American Bully. American Bullies have been registered UKC, but the dogs winning in UKC are moderate APBTs, not Am Bullies(95% of the time, anyway!) American Bullies should only be registered with the ABKC. People are still afraid of the ABKC going under, so they still register w/ UKC. There are ADBA APBTs with cropped ears, BTW. Champions and Grand Champions at that. It's merely a preference, though some judges prefer them one way or the other.


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## American_Pit13

king_leonidas said:


> J/W. On my other forum you wont find a true APBT with a crop job unless it's an UKC dog aka Am. Bully or is its Am. Staff.


Many pure bred APBT have crops.. Must be a limited group you hang out with.. As stated by Indie the dogs above are all AKC Amstaff CH dogs.


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## dixieland

Alright we need all those kick ass photos of Lisas,Dougs,and Holly's dogs now!post up them pretty apbt's with crops! lol


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## HeavyJeep

Got a few OK shots of Kali this weekend.. Hoping I could get some constructive criticism 


















Thanks GP


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## madmaxmick

thank you great post


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## dylroche1

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

wondering if someone could point out the goods/bads? thanks!


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## performanceknls

HeavyJeep said:


> Got a few OK shots of Kali this weekend.. Hoping I could get some constructive criticism
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Good tail set, and decent rear from what I could see but..... extremely straight in the shoulders. I'm seeing this more and more in the ADBA and I don't understand why judges are putting dogs up with really straight shoulders. In the second picture you can see the lack of fore chest where it caves in the middle and again how straight the shoulders are. She should have a slightly wider chest, it's very deep though and that's good.


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## performanceknls

dylroche1 said:


> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> wondering if someone could point out the goods/bads? thanks!


This picture is hard to tell do you have better ones? First thing off the bat if we are talking conformation I do not like the head. Too much lip, short muzzle, however is this dog an AST or pitterstaff? Then it would be more acceptable. Great conditioning!! I just would like to see a few better pictures to be able to say more and what type of dog, AST, APBT, or piterstaff. Thanks


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## MSK

Have at her going to be doing some shows with her next year.

Akiliya


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

i'll post just cuz im curious. i know that Odin's back legs are horrible. and i cant get a very good stack from him either, he always thinks hes in trouble when i set him up. but he's also a shelter dog so i have no clue of his heritage.








this ones a lil better but its also when he was fatter lol


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## performanceknls

MSK said:


> Have at her going to be doing some shows with her next year.
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> Akiliya


I just love her! Very nice! Maybe a low tail set but IMO a really nice example of an APBT.



Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> i'll post just cuz im curious. i know that Odin's back legs are horrible. and i cant get a very good stack from him either, he always thinks hes in trouble when i set him up. but he's also a shelter dog so i have no clue of his heritage.
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well since he's just a pet and more of a bully type dog I'll point out some little things. He's really straight in the rear so no angulation in the rear but sounds like you know that. A tad straight in the shoulders, the only thing that may cause problems for you in the future would be the rear end. My boston terrier is just as bad. Poor guy walks like on peg legs. BUt a handsome fellow!!


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

performanceknls said:


> well since he's just a pet and more of a bully type dog I'll point out some little things. He's really straight in the rear so no angulation in the rear but sounds like you know that. A tad straight in the shoulders, the only thing that may cause problems for you in the future would be the rear end. My boston terrier is just as bad. Poor guy walks like on peg legs. BUt a handsome fellow!!


Thanks Lisa! Yeah from reading ur other stuff I came to learn his rear is really bad and his right leg gets awfully stiff sometimes, I think it will be a problem when he gets older. Ever since I found GP and learned about AmBullies I suspected that's most likely the blood he has. But since I have no ped, ill never know for sure. He'll just be my big loveable monster. And Odin blushed when I told him u think he's handsome lol


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## Cmbmw

I know the pics are probably small but just wandering what u thought he is still a puppy

















Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## MSK

performanceknls said:


> I just love her! Very nice! Maybe a low tail set but IMO a really nice example of an APBT.


Thanks girl! I agree her tail set is lower then it should be I was trying to explain that in another thread.


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## shewerewolf

my girls a rescue so a mutt...but i was just curious thought id post up a few pics and get ya'lls opinions


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## performanceknls

MSK said:


> Thanks girl! I agree her tail set is lower then it should be I was trying to explain that in another thread.


Sorry I meant her tail set is a touch high. the lower the better in most cases. you do not want the tail coming off the top of the back. There should be an arch in the back not a flat table top. Now that's different from a roach back dog. A lower tail set means they have more length of hip.



Cmbmw said:


> I know the pics are probably small but just wandering what u thought he is still a puppy
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Sorry way too small to see much of anything and you need stacked pictures



shewerewolf said:


> my girls a rescue so a mutt...but i was just curious thought id post up a few pics and get ya'lls opinions


Mutts are hard as I cannot compare them to a breed standard but I do see really straight shoulders. and could use more angulation in the rear.


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## performanceknls

So some of you can see what things I'm talking about lets look at one of my dogs, Monsoon. I think he has great Structure and did very well finishing his CH in UKC in two weekends with multiple best of breed wins and several ADBA shows placing first just about every time.










His major flaw IMO is his head. His muzzle is too short IMO and has a bit of a pumpkin head, lol he also is a little cow hocked in the rear end meaning his back legs kind of point to the middle instead if being straight up and down. However it does not affect his movement, he moves really straight and effortlessly.

Now lets look at his shoulders. You can see good angulation in his shoulders, nice deep chest with good forechest, nice straight front. really good underline, look at how his brisket goes before starting the up tuck at his waist. Nice topline with an arch in the back and look how low his tail set is. That is why his back looks like that and not a flat table top. Then we get to the rear and you can see how much angulation he has.
Now he is not perfect but very close to ADBA standard. I hope this helps to understand some of the things I talk about when looking at a dog. Sometimes it's hard to see from just a photo and you need to see them move. I just looked at a picture of Barca and his shoulders looked straight but I know for a fact they are really nice. Pictures can be deceiving sometimes.


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## Okellie

I would have set him up different I showed for 30 years. He is not set up great but I think he is a fairly nice dog setting up a dog is and can be deserve movement tells the true story 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## MR.E'S got a blue fawn

performanceknls said:


> Here is a great example of a poor front, now she is not an APBT but this shows a good view of an obvious fault.
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Is there any way of correcting the alignment of the front legs?


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## MSK

MR.E'S got a blue fawn said:


> Is there any way of correcting the alignment of the front legs?


Depends on how old the dog is really and if it had a calcium deficiency as a pup. also whether it is a deformity like bowed legs or just down pasterns. Sometimes calcium can help in a young dog that is still growing. Sometimes being overweight can be a culprit also. I know when my girl Akiliya is over weight her pasterns look horrible and she start appearing to toe out.


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## performanceknls

Okellie said:


> I would have set him up different I showed for 30 years. He is not set up great but I think he is a fairly nice dog setting up a dog is and can be deserve movement tells the true story
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Sorry this post puzzles me who are you talking about, your dog? I didn't see your picture.



MSK said:


> Depends on how old the dog is really and if it had a calcium deficiency as a pup. also whether it is a deformity like bowed legs or just down pasterns. Sometimes calcium can help in a young dog that is still growing. Sometimes being overweight can be a culprit also. I know when my girl Akiliya is over weight her pasterns look horrible and she start appearing to toe out.


Yes you can help things along if it was a deficiency of some sort but most likely it's genetic and there is nothing you can do to correct it. Although a start would be for people to not support breeders who produce bad fronts like that.


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## MSK

performanceknls said:


> Yes you can help things along if it was a deficiency of some sort but most likely it's genetic and there is nothing you can do to correct it. Although a start would be for people to not support breeders who produce bad fronts like that.


I agree I have seen so many bad fronts withing the past 3 or 4 years its aweful. Seems like ADBA is the only registry as far as Show right not letting them get away with placing bad fronts. Although I have been hearing some front angulation is being looked over.


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## MR.E'S got a blue fawn

performanceknls said:


> Sorry this post puzzles me who are you talking about, your dog? I didn't see your picture.
> 
> Yes you can help things along if it was a deficiency of some sort but most likely it's genetic and there is nothing you can do to correct it. Although a start would be for people to not support breeders who produce bad fronts like that.


Well she's just a pup (12 week old to be exact), and its not to extreme. I just wanted some opinions on the subject since I've read a little bit about easty Westy pastems in other threads, but thanks for the responses.


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## performanceknls

I have seen a huge increase of dogs who are straight in the shoulders being put up in the adba and I think some judges have no clue what shoulder angulation is. Also some dogs who placed well at our ADBA show here in NM were very short backed compared to the height of the dog, almost weird looking. I know some judges say to the ADBA standard but also what they like.


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## Rudy4747

performanceknls said:


> I have seen a huge increase of dogs who are straight in the shoulders being put up in the adba and I think some judges have no clue what shoulder angulation is. Also some dogs who placed well at our ADBA show here in NM were very short backed compared to the height of the dog, almost weird looking. I know some judges say to the ADBA standard but also what they like.


Funny i have been looking and thinking allot of the dogs that are winning are longer then they are tall and the back ends set higher then the shoulders. I been cracking up at allot of the picks lately. But love getting to see my bulldog peeps so it is all good. Alot of the interpretations of the standard very. But I have missed this thread it is nice to see people take critiques so well.


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## zohawn

Rudy4747 said:


> Funny i have been looking and thinking allot of the dogs that are winning are longer then they are tall and the back ends set higher then the shoulders. I been cracking up at allot of the picks lately. But love getting to see my bulldog peeps so it is all good. Alot of the interpretations of the standard very. But I have missed this thread it is nice to see people take critiques so well.


i still think the judges should consider line. dogs like alligator remind me of what youre describing


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## KMdogs

performanceknls said:


> I have seen a huge increase of dogs who are straight in the shoulders being put up in the adba and I think some judges have no clue what shoulder angulation is. Also some dogs who placed well at our ADBA show here in NM were very short backed compared to the height of the dog, almost weird looking. I know some judges say to the ADBA standard but also what they like.


Gone and going south as i've stood by that upsets the masses.. Function before registry, all makes sense.. Sound structure follows by formula.

All this registry non sense has done nothing but spiral downwards since the beginning, just look at the disasters winning in AKC UKC etc.. Only a matter of time before it hit the ADBA..

Thanks to the soundness, consistency brought forth of yesteryear it takes longer to dilute to .. Still ain't bullet proof, just imagine another 10 years at the rate its been going.

People will disagree because of who is involved within the organization, which to their benefit of counter argument there are some good people within.. Still doesn't change the fact a lot of garbage in the light and coming through, not to mention majority are just glorified Amstaffs thanks to "old blood"..

Oh well, people can believe what they wish.


----------



## performanceknls

hee hee I missed you KM great post! 

and there was a dog at the NM show rudy who kept winning ( I don't want to name names it wasn't beef) that was super short in the back and it boggled my mind that he won so much. nice dog but needed like 4" in the back.

Now siren is really high in the rear and her biggest fault but I have several judges that just love her because of her bloodlines, and she's a CH.


----------



## zohawn

performanceknls said:


> hee hee I missed you KM great post!
> 
> and there was a dog at the NM show rudy who kept winning ( I don't want to name names it wasn't beef) that was super short in the back and it boggled my mind that he won so much. nice dog but needed like 4" in the back.
> 
> Now siren is really high in the rear and her biggest fault but I have several *judges that just love her because of her bloodlines*, and she's a CH.


another issue with the whole thing


----------



## Cmbmw

What do u think?

Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## performanceknls

Cmbmw said:


> View attachment 12589
> 
> 
> View attachment 12590
> 
> 
> What do u think?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Again too small for me to see anything. try to resize them with Tinypic or something.


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## Rudy4747

performanceknls said:


> hee hee I missed you KM great post!
> 
> and there was a dog at the NM show rudy who kept winning ( I don't want to name names it wasn't beef) that was super short in the back and it boggled my mind that he won so much. nice dog but needed like 4" in the back.
> 
> Now siren is really high in the rear and her biggest fault but I have several judges that just love her because of her bloodlines, and she's a CH.


Yeah I see well Their was a female that won best in show and she is long easy to see. She wins often. i see a lot of bs go on with in the ADBA and have thought of starting some AADR shows here. People don't understand to a lot of the people sowing dog this is a great way to socialize a dog and get him used to travel. A good way to meet up with friends from across the country and others that have love for the dogs. to most of us has little to do with the placings of our dogs though it is nice when they do well. If you have good dogs you know it well before entering he show ring. Just like wise meeting Doug in person was great he is a down to earth guy and i would never got that chance not for beeing at this show. But i guess this would be great topic for different thread huh!?!?!


----------



## BullyGal

Can I throw up a pic of my Bully mutt girl for critiquing?


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## Cmbmw

What is tinypic


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Tinypic, photobucket, or any kind of image sharing site. U can resize the pics and imbed them into the post.


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## performanceknls

BullyGal said:


> Can I throw up a pic of my Bully mutt girl for critiquing?


There is a thread in the bully section I do not know their structure or standard but in the bull forum there is a critique thread.


----------



## Kwhitaker0604

Oooh. This seems fun! Hiro is a shelter dog and purely a pet, but I'd like to hear her faults and stuff. I think she may be a little on the bully side, but she's just she's not overdone or anything. I'm also working on getting her in better condition. She's been recovering from heartworm treatment. 








Sorry, she's turning slightly in this one. Don't know how to stack her. Lol.


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## performanceknls

Kwhitaker0604 said:


> Oooh. This seems fun! Hiro is a shelter dog and purely a pet, but I'd like to hear her faults and stuff. I think she may be a little on the bully side, but she's just she's not overdone or anything. I'm also working on getting her in better condition. She's been recovering from heartworm treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, she's turning slightly in this one. Don't know how to stack her. Lol.


A few things I see, is the rear could use more angulations it's pretty straight. Hard to tell if it's bully or Amstaff but super cute rescue!


----------



## Kwhitaker0604

I never even thought about her possibly having staffy. I always thought they were bigger. She's only about 16-17 inches tall. No telling what she has in her, I love her all the same though! 
Thanks!


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## performanceknls

I know several smaller Amstaff so yeah it could be a possibility but there's just no way to know for sure. she's super cute though!!


----------



## Cmbmw

Let's try this again 








Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## MSK

Sending from your iphone will always put up small pictures.


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## Cmbmw

Oh well I give up that's the only way I can send them


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## performanceknls

Yeah I can't see much from that photo or the angel of the dog. Look at stacked pictures on here of the dogs that's what I need.


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## MSK

Have at this one. Not the best pics of her but still like and opinion on her structure regardless.


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## performanceknls

Is that first picture the same dog as the last?


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## MSK

Yep that was her at a year old


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## Cmbmw

These are the only pics I have dot know if you can reall see anything 



























Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## MSK

upruns:


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## krockspitsinc

my pitbull yaya


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## krockspitsinc

krockspitsinc said:


> my pitbull yaya


 he is still a baby


----------



## krockspitsinc

*My best friend also!!!!*

:hammer::clap: my best friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## krockspitsinc

*Gatta love my pits!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

:roll: Another pit pic! Hope u all like my pits?


----------



## krockspitsinc

*My best friend also!!!!*

:hammer::clap: my best friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! love every-1's pit pics!!!:hug:


----------



## SHARON MOYA

MY MIKADO said:


> Yes beauty is in the eye of the behold but from my understanding the reason blue dogs do not wn as much is the fact that blue is consider an Am Staff colouring. I might be wrong about this tho.


Acually, a lot of AKC judges dislike Blue and will not put Blue dogs up because the breed standard for the Amstaff states that "the nose must definitely be black" and blue dogs have grey noses.....


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## TITANS-WRATH

Is it to early to see any faults on this pup? hes 5 weeks... lol 
i was thinking he was gonna grow up to be a nice looking dog 
but this thread got me nervous now.


----------



## SHARON MOYA

Is it to early to see any faults on this pup? hes 5 weeks... lol 
i was thinking he was gonna grow up to be a nice looking dog 
but this thread got me nervous now.[/QUOTE]

I do puppy evaluations at 8 weeks. At 8 weeks they are closest to looking like what they will look like grown (as a general rule).


----------



## performanceknls

MSK said:


> Have at this one. Not the best pics of her but still like and opinion on her structure regardless.


Don't hate me because you know I like you! But I'm not a fan of her shoulders or structure. Hard for me to know where to start, I like her head! But she could use more angulation in the rear and shoulders and I'm not a fan of her top line or her front.



Cmbmw said:


> These are the only pics I have dot know if you can reall see anything
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> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


If we are talking breed structure then I think this dog lacks proper breed type however I see no big faults if she is just a pet. I think she's cute though!


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## performanceknls

krockspitsinc said:


> my pitbull yaya


Poor structure in the front for a Bully or a pit but that's all I can tel from the picture



krockspitsinc said:


> :hammer::clap: my best friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





krockspitsinc said:


> :roll: Another pit pic! Hope u all like my pits?





krockspitsinc said:


> :hammer::clap: my best friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! love every-1's pit pics!!!:hug:


 The dogs above look more like a classic bully, they look pretty good but you would be better off going to the bully section and posting since I am not familiar with the ABKC standard.


----------



## performanceknls

TITANS-WRATH said:


> Is it to early to see any faults on this pup? hes 5 weeks... lol
> i was thinking he was gonna grow up to be a nice looking dog
> but this thread got me nervous now.


Too young to tell anything yet but when he does get older he looks like a bully so go to the Bully section and post him in their structure and fault thread. I'm familiar with the ABKC standard.


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## MSK

performanceknls said:


> Don't hate me because you know I like you! But I'm not a fan of her shoulders or structure. Hard for me to know where to start, I like her head! But she could use more angulation in the rear and shoulders and I'm not a fan of her top line or her front.


LOL! No bigs I know she not perfect plus super inbred so all the bad came with the goods. Only thing upsets me is nothing you said just that shes not better as I kind of got the raw end of that breeding and she is all I have. (Long story will not bring that up here.) I wish there was a better way to show off her structure she takes awful pictures. She has a high tail set, her pasterns are weak, and slight under bite when I say slight I do mean very slight had a scissor bite as a pup and went a little undershot sometime between 12 weeks and a year old when she was at a co own home that didn't work out. She has decent angulation in back though hard to tell front he angles I took some of these pics but could possibly use a little more. Front needs a more I agree. She unfortunately has been sick on and off since her mother died in March and hasn't really gotten completely back to her full self this was her just last year around this time










Definitely not as Kennel blind as I used to be cause about 5 years ago that would have stung LOL. Not gonna say that I'm not kennel blind at all because I don't believe anyone isn't a little kennel blind at times but, I can definitely be objective with my own dogs now where I couldn't 5 years ago lol.


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## performanceknls

I always say pictures can be deceiving and seeing them in person makes a big difference. Try stacking her and having someone take pictures for you. I just can't tell from the pictures that good if there is something I'm missing. I am comparing her to the ADBA standard so some things I think of as faults are not faulted as heavy in the UKC.


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## MSK

ADBA standard is good I have no UKC registered dogs.


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## performanceknls

I take it back, she does have good angulation in the rear but shoulders are straighter than I'd like. She actually reminds me of one of my dogs! lol


----------



## SHARON MOYA

Okay..... Have at him! LOL! Buster-3.5 years old Amstaff.








[/URL] http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8074673924/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/[email protected]/[/IMG]


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## SHARON MOYA

And a pup....








[/URL] http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8071732325/ http://www.flickr.com/people/[email protected]/[/IMG]


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## performanceknls

I can't only because I do not know the AST standard. I will say based on the pictures I've seen I really like that your dogs have good angulation in the rear. That is gone in a lot of AST's these days!


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## SHARON MOYA

performanceknls said:


> I can't only because I do not know the AST standard. I will say based on the pictures I've seen I really like that your dogs have good angulation in the rear. That is gone in a lot of AST's these days!


Thank You


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## TITANS-WRATH

Titan at 14 weeks


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## Princesspaola21

TITANS-WRATH said:


> Titan at 14 weeks


Beautiful dog! Your tile floor looks eerily identical to our kitchen.

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Autumn-n-Gage

I have heard about tail faults? I'm going to try to post a picture of my APBTs tail, it has like a knot in it.. Basically it looks like its broken lol














I would like to upload photos of both my babies, they are 13 weeks... I need to get better pictures, but would it be okay? I'd love to heard what you all have to say about them

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## performanceknls

It could be a genetic fault like a kink tail. If it's a kink in the tail it's a fault and a genetic trait. Better pictures would help


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## CaillouBaby

Could you do mine? I know he's a bit overweight, but we're working on it upruns:


12.11.12 by NickiKita, on Flickr


----------



## Black Rabbit

Here's a better on of my "ugly duckling" for you to pick at 










His chest dropped a bit more so he doesn't look so shallow anymore and he's got a tad more forechest then he did was a young dog 










This is probably not the best pic but his back feet aren't spread so far out like the first pic so I thought it might give a better look at his top line and you can actually see his feet since he's not on grass  some of my pics make him look like he's got super week pasterns too but I don't think their all that bad.


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## Aynjelia

*No photos*

None to post, no photos.


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## performanceknls

CaillouBaby said:


> Could you do mine? I know he's a bit overweight, but we're working on it upruns:
> 
> 
> 12.11.12 by NickiKita, on Flickr


Tail set a little high and I can't really see the back end well but I don't see any major faults, pretty dog. Maybe a tad long in the back, but I like dogs just a little longer.


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## performanceknls

kg420 said:


> Here's a better on of my "ugly duckling" for you to pick at
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> His chest dropped a bit more so he doesn't look so shallow anymore and he's got a tad more forechest then he did was a young dog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is probably not the best pic but his back feet aren't spread so far out like the first pic so I thought it might give a better look at his top line and you can actually see his feet since he's not on grass  some of my pics make him look like he's got super week pasterns too but I don't think their all that bad.


Other than him being really tall he is a great looking dog. Even though he is a big boy he is proportionate so he still meets the standard. and I'm a little bias I love Dosia! lol


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## performanceknls

Aynjelia said:


> UKC reg APBT, I think he is about 2 years old here. From what I evaluated of him, I feel he's too straight in the back legs, has weak pasterns, and a short tail. What do you think?


I need a better picture. I don't see weak pasterns but again I need a better picture. The dog is straight in the rear and the shoulders in this picture look horrible! I think it's just this picture but to me they look terribly straight with a lack of forechest. So a few more pictures standing would help. thanks Just looked again and it looks like lack of upper are length and high tail set. UKC bred dogs can have a lot of Amstaff and that could be where the upper arms come into play. AMstaffs lack length of upper arm many times, along with flat toplines and high tail sets.


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## Aynjelia

*No photos*

None to post, no photos


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## Aynjelia

*No photos*

None to post, no photos


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## Rudy4747

Krystal Dosia is awesome his structure is great. I would bet given the chance he would be an ADBA champion. Really love this guy.


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## performanceknls

Aynjelia said:


> Okay here is a couple more pics...And really you think his back end is okay. I had a lady who shows ADBA pits say that he needed more angulation in his back legs. However I am aware that ADBA standards and UKC standards are different. So she may just know what she shows, and not so much what UKC looks for. My ADBA female died 2 years ago, I was showing her, she was doing well. This is my first UKC reg pit. So really I'm new with this standard.


Those are better pictures his front doesn't look so bad just a little straight. His rear end is hard to tell it looks different in every picture if she thinks he could use more angulation then he probably is a little straight. in UKC it depends what the judge likes and who you are competing against. Personally even for a UKC bred dog I think his legs are too short compared to his body and that makes him looks longer in the back with stubby legs. Could be the angle of the picture though. What I think is that you show him in UKC and ask what the judges think. I am more of an ADBA person but I do have dogs that are dual CH UKC/ABDA. I have judges in UKC hate or love my dogs so my advice is go out, have fun and see what happens!


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## performanceknls

Aynjelia said:


> This is my late bitch "Angel" she was backyard bred, with some Great Pyrenese somewhere in the line. She actually got 3rd place conformation in a fun show, with an ADBA judge. LOL. She sure was smart though! Very very smart, talented and left a big impression on anyone who met her.


I think she is very pretty but does not have great breed type if I lok at ADBA standard but again this is JMO. Too rangy in the legs, shallow chest, straight shoulders, no forechest, lack of underjaw. This is just compared to the standard and that picture is not flattering she is over extended. But with that said as a dog she is stunning! I love her head! She looks more like a Dogo which had Pyrenees in the breed.


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## Aynjelia

*Nothing*

No photos, none to post


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## Black Rabbit

Aw thanks you guys  He's a fun dog, I love him to death ❤ LOL Lisa Holly and I were talking about how friggin leggy he is XD but he's long as crap too so he balances out pretty well.


----------



## performanceknls

Aynjelia said:


> Awsome! Great advise. ya my boy is a little stalky, but he makes up for his bad confomation in temperment! As for my girl Angel, she did get mistaken for a Dogo quite a bit. I loved her non the less. Showing is new to me, and being sound in temperment is all I really want in my dogs. Pit bulls are considerded restricted breeds here in Edmonton and their are no clubs I can find out here. I love the breed for its enthusiasim to please its owner and drive, that makes it an all round camping, hiking, jogging, swimming companion for me. Thank again for your opinion. BTW I checked out your website, and I am defineatly a fan!! Keep up the good work. Aynjelia.
> Here is Angels photos: Angel Photos by whtrdnsapbt | Photobucket


I love her pictures!! She reminds me a lot of my dog Vixen they look very similar in the head! My favorite picture of your girls is where she is standing in front of the river! And thank you for the compliment!



kg420 said:


> Aw thanks you guys  He's a fun dog, I love him to death ❤ LOL Lisa Holly and I were talking about how friggin leggy he is XD but he's long as crap too so he balances out pretty well.


He is balanced! Such a pretty boy and a goober I love it! lol


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## pitbullmamanatl

Lisa, I'm going to post a picture of Shox in the near future and see how you do at breaking down bullies.... not that it is much different to be honest.


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## performanceknls

UGH I don't know anything about bullies! I can see what I like and don't like but I do not know the standard. I always tell bully people to ask you! lol Just like I don't evaluate AST's since most are a train wreck and I what I see wrong with many dogs, judges put up as best of breed! I give up!


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## TITANS-WRATH

Titan 5 months old today.


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## performanceknls

He is so cute I just love him!! These pictures are not the best it looks like he is really high in the rear and that's all I can tell for now. However you need to go back to the vet who crapped his ears and SLAP HIM! lol Titan will never grow into ears with that long of a crop! HE's such a handsome dog it isn't going to be a huge deal but I wish that vet had done them shorter. No need for a battle crop but those are no where near standard. Again go slap that vet! lol


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## Buddy's Master

How do I post pictures saved on my hard drive here?
The icon showed erquires a url.


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## Buddy's Master

Though Buddy is still young (turning 4 months on the 25th), these are his pics from 9 to 10weeks old. Haven't taken nicer pics recently.

I know he has easty-west forequarters (genetic, as his dad got dat too).
The edge of the rib-cage does show at times, not sure what causes that. Could it be health related? Not sure.

Please assess and comment (sorry for the angle of pics).

On the last 2 he was 12 weeks old.


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## Titanthepitbull

Does he have good structure?


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## allaboutdogs

Now I know the best structure of dog. It seems that I studied biology here less than an hour. Now I will examine my dog.


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## Rudy4747

Titanthepitbull said:


> Does he have good structure?


He is still young but has a nice looking structure for sure.


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## performanceknls

Buddy's Master said:


> Though Buddy is still young (turning 4 months on the 25th), these are his pics from 9 to 10weeks old. Haven't taken nicer pics recently.
> 
> I know he has easty-west forequarters (genetic, as his dad got dat too).
> The edge of the rib-cage does show at times, not sure what causes that. Could it be health related? Not sure.
> 
> Please assess and comment (sorry for the angle of pics).
> 
> On the last 2 he was 12 weeks old.


Your dog will not show the rib cage because he is a puppy and is at a good weight. When get gets older it depends on his bone structure what he is really going to look like. So far he is a cute puppy and I really can't say much for now on structure, too young.



Titanthepitbull said:


> Does he have good structure?


Nice pup but looks short in the back but it could be the angle of the picture. Nice forechest, shoulders, and rear!


----------



## Princesspaola21

I have a hard time getting her stacked but what do you think of my bully. If this pic won't work any tips on how to take a proper one lol... Whoops forgot the pic  









Sent from Petguide.com Free App.


----------



## Buddy's Master

Thanks.
He just turned 4 months (30lbs and the vet said he is not overweight), I will update with the latest pics.


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## performanceknls

Princesspaola21 said:


> I have a hard time getting her stacked but what do you think of my bully. If this pic won't work any tips on how to take a proper one lol... Whoops forgot the pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App.


This is not a bully thread and I wouldn't know where to start with a bully. Try the Bully 101 section of this forum. You also want to take the picture from the dogs level not from above. If you go to the first page of this thread I think it says how to take pictures.


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## allaboutdogs

performanceknls said:


> This thread will show examples of structure the good and the bad. So this thread does not get out of control with pictures of everyones dogs there will only be a few dogs posted at a time. Feel free to comment the good and the bad you see on the dogs. Any posts with pictures that were not approved will be deleted, we want to focus on only a few dogs at a time and hopefully it should be educational and fun.
> 
> To offer photos please post here
> http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/28793-photos-structure-faults.html
> 
> Here is a pictures that show different parts of a dogs body if you are not clear on what we are talking about.
> 
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> I will start with dogs that show under the APBT standard
> 
> Tempest
> 
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> 
> Minor Faults
> Tempest could use more drop in chest, her chest does not come all the way down to her elbows so it is a little shallow.
> 
> Her shoulders are a little straight and it does affect the way she turns in agility. Especially in UKC straight shoulders are becoming more common and breeders really need to pay attention to them because they effect the movement of the dogs.
> 
> Now the good parts of her structure
> She is balanced overall and square
> Nice head
> Great front and pasterns everything straight and in line
> Great angulation in the rear and nice tail set


I love to see this post. This is educational. Just like that we study biology here. Through this we know the parts of the body of our beloved pet.


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## SeanR

here is a great article on this subject, its quite a long read, but well worth it. iv read it a few times already and often find myself referring back to it. there is a total of 11 steps to go through.
Hope it sheds some light on the subject

Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


----------



## mi16reisen

I don't know how to stack my dog. She isn't for show, but for work. Are there any structural problems that might be ahead for us and if it'll influence her performance?

She's almost a year old now.


































Last weekend a man told me that she must've been mixed with something because her head was pit but her body was like a Greyhound. I honestly don't know but I'd really like to try a DNA test to see.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## ::::COACH::::

DNA tests are not accurate, so unless you have her registration papers there is no telling if she is purebred or not. That being said she is a good looking dog!she looks more like the American Pit bull terrier. The people who told you that about her body probably have American bullies or American bully mixes...


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## Celestial88

Here's an example of a structural fault 

Alice's shoulders are positioned too far forward and she also has a very straight front.









Notice how you can see her shoulders and they almost look farther out than her chest. You shouldn't be able to see that. 









Here's a good shoulder set for contrast, when looking at him head on he doesn't scream "Shoulders". They just seem to meld together, if that makes any sense at all. lol









And Dakota has developed very nice rear angulation









To judge rear angulation, draw a line in your head from the end of the pelvis down to the ground. The line should end in front of the foot








Sorry if this one has been posted


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## Celestial88

mi16reisen said:


> I don't know how to stack my dog. She isn't for show, but for work. Are there any structural problems that might be ahead for us and if it'll influence her performance?
> 
> She's almost a year old now.
> 
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> 
> Last weekend a man told me that she must've been mixed with something because her head was pit but her body was like a Greyhound. I honestly don't know but I'd really like to try a DNA test to see.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's not really possible to tell anything from those photos. You want to get one from the side and at level with the dog, like the one I posted of my fuzzy butt mutt. 
And then one straight on like this (preferbly standing even though)


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon

yeah like Celeste pointed oout i am well aware of my faults with my boy, he is a shelter mutt so no big deal.

but he's very straight in the rear and his shoulders are too straight as well. pushed forward like on Alice. he has slipping hocks and is just a structural mess. but i was told he has a good tail set. lol









and for comparison, my new girl Banshee who will be here in less than 2 weeks!


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## mi16reisen

[/color]


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## performanceknls

The video was much better than the photos. She reminds me of my tempest! Her shoulders look good from what I can see. She could use more angulation in her rear but it's not bad. It's really hard to see with her hopping around but not bad. She looks APBT to me with some American Staffordshire terrier thrown in there. I can see some AST in her structure but she is very pretty.


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## ScruffDaddy

This sounds fun! My little apbt pup Bella is probably too young but this was her mom at 9 months old. Scarlett Nova


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## performanceknls

Hard to tell from the pictures the angles of the pictures are not the best but I don't see anything that stands out as a major fault.


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## Autumn-n-Gage

Wondering if these pictures could be looked at. I tried to put some pictures up of my two a while ago but they were bad... Here is the best I could do lol

Autumn is the blue pup she is my female. Gage is the tan pup he is my male. Both are APBTs.


















































































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## performanceknls

OK first I have to say something about the set they are on. SLIP CHAINS NEVER BELONG ON A TIE OUT. That's how dogs die and do damage to their throats. Get two good collars from Stillwater and then you're all good.....

Ok the Male has poor breed type if we are talking about APBT. They both look like they have some Amstaff in them. The male has big flews and lots of extra skin on his neck that hangs down. Angulation in the rear looks ok, could use more, but he appears to be cow hocked in some of the pictures. He could have a better tail set. His shoulders need more lay back meaning he is straight in the shoulders. On the plus I love his ear set and nice forechest and underline.

The female
Straight in the rear and shoulders, and high in the rear. There are better pictures of the male so I can give more feed back on him.

Your pups are cute I'm just comparing them to the standard. No dogs are perfect and pictures show only part of the story and movement shows the rest. Some of my dogs have these faults too. I would like better lay back in my dogs shoulders for more angulation and I have a few dogs who are cow hocked slightly. One of my CH's in the ADBA was cow hocked a little when he stood but when he moved, he had great movement. I have seen cow hocked dogs move like train wrecks so movement is very important.


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## Autumn-n-Gage

performanceknls said:


> OK first I have to say something about the set they are on. SLIP CHAINS NEVER BELONG ON A TIE OUT. That's how dogs die and do damage to their throats. Get two good collars from Stillwater and then you're all good.....
> 
> Ok the Male has poor breed type if we are talking about APBT. They both look like they have some Amstaff in them. The male has big flews and lots of extra skin on his neck that hangs down. Angulation in the rear looks ok, could use more, but he appears to be cow hocked in some of the pictures. He could have a better tail set. His shoulders need more lay back meaning he is straight in the shoulders. On the plus I love his ear set and nice forechest and underline.
> 
> The female
> Straight in the rear and shoulders, and high in the rear. There are better pictures of the male so I can give more feed back on him.
> 
> Your pups are cute I'm just comparing them to the standard. No dogs are perfect and pictures show only part of the story and movement shows the rest. Some of my dogs have these faults too. I would like better lay back in my dogs shoulders for more angulation and I have a few dogs who are cow hocked slightly. One of my CH's in the ADBA was cow hocked a little when he stood but when he moved, he had great movement. I have seen cow hocked dogs move like train wrecks so movement is very important.


Thank you so much for the feed back! As for the collars I do have nice buckle collars for them I had taken them off before I put them out because their name tags broke off of both and I had to get pliers to fix them. They were put back on once my boyfriend fixed them but I took them outside to try and get pictures while it was nice and I was off  so now worried about the collars! I do keep the slip chains on though as well as their buckle collars because I only grew up with slip chains for collars on dogs. Actually this site was what made me get actual collars. But when walking them on a leash I prefer to have a slip chain so I can correct them if needed.

They are just family dogs I don't really care about what they look like performance wise but it is nice to know what others who know the standards have to say about them!! Thank you for your time and information!

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## performanceknls

Slip chains should NEVER be kept on a dog all the time they can strangle them. When you are not around one could get caught on something and they can die. It happens a lot I could tell horror stories. When they are not walking or being trained they need to come off. Especially if you crate them. 

Your dogs are cute and look well taken care of good job


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## performanceknls

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> yeah like Celeste pointed oout i am well aware of my faults with my boy, he is a shelter mutt so no big deal.
> 
> but he's very straight in the rear and his shoulders are too straight as well. pushed forward like on Alice. he has slipping hocks and is just a structural mess. but i was told he has a good tail set. lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and for comparison, my new girl Banshee who will be here in less than 2 weeks!


Sooo lets evaluate my dog! lol
Banshee

She has good rear angulation, nice top line, underline, good forechest, and all around nice dog. Things I would like to improve on, better tail set just a bit lower, and while she has pretty good shoulders I would like more lay back in the shoulder blade. Anyone else see anything? I am bias since I bred her I don't want to be kennel blind.


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## ::::COACH::::

She is perfect!


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

performanceknls said:


> Sooo lets evaluate my dog! lol
> Banshee
> 
> She has good rear angulation, nice top line, underline, good forechest, and all around nice dog. Things I would like to improve on, better tail set just a bit lower, and while she has pretty good shoulders I would like more lay back in the shoulder blade. Anyone else see anything? I am bias since I bred her I don't want to be kennel blind.


Hmmmm I would like an off switch. LOL! But no, seriously. She is great and a pleasure to own. Tia got some pics of Banshee in my lap last night. I will get her to post them soon. Oh and this training place by me, Cha Cha's has agility courses.... i'll look into pricing if u like them 

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## performanceknls

Send me the link on FB and I'll take a look at them.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

performanceknls said:


> Send me the link on FB and I'll take a look at them.


Done 

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## doughboi

would love to get advice on my 10 month old


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## performanceknls

doughboi said:


> would love to get advice on my 10 month old


Hard to tell from the pictures but looks more bully and I do not know the standard very good on Bullies. Sorry


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## ::::COACH::::

He is handsome! Post him in the bully section! Someone there could better critique him for you  also try to get some stacked pictures of him directly from the front and side


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## BullyGal

LTristan said:


> Guys, this is my first ever post and the thread immediately caught my attention. I would like to hear from you guys about my boy Kovu's structure. What do you think? Positive and negative feedbacks are welcome. Thank you!


You are over stacking him in the front. See how his elbows look blown out? You need those front legs up and under his chest and they should be perpendicular to the ground with the elbows nice and tight against the ribcage.

I know it makes his chest seem wide... but it really just throws the whole dog off.


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## Rudy4747

Over stacked in both front and back you should be able to take a strait line from the bottom point of the hip streight to the grouns and it should go through the middle of the paw. That being said the pup is a little high in the rear, also taller then he is long should be square from gron to top line. All in all not bad looking dog looks younger I may be mistaken though.


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## Rudy4747

Rear could use more angulation Front looks ok from the pic when you get a good stack photo post it up !


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## pookie!

Not stacked perfect and leaning his head towards me so it appears ginormous 









Not the typical blue dog shape 

him kind of running









That picture posted before me kind of looks over stacked a tad, and the front elbow looks bowed out some? Might just be the funky stack but idk


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## Rudy4747

^ Nice shapped dog rear angulation is pretty good and he has a nice deep chest.

The only faults that jump out are his some what high tail set. And his upper arm is short from the elbow to the shoulder joint making his shoulder angulation streight. He is pretty handsome dog. Thanks for sharing!


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## pookie!

Rudy4747 said:


> ^ Nice shapped dog rear angulation is pretty good and he has a nice deep chest.
> 
> The only faults that jump out are his some what high tail set. And his upper arm is short from the elbow to the shoulder joint making his shoulder angulation streight. He is pretty handsome dog. Thanks for sharing!


Well I guess his "shallow" chest filled out some then!

I didnt hear any of the other faults before, which is very interesting and now gives me something to compare and contrast while looking at dogs with better conformation. 
Thanks for the compliments, it helps me look at dogs conformation in a more educated way, pretty interesting even if he is just a mutt.


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## devonte151

I know he a mix breed.







but a worked mix breed


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## Benderdog

devonte151 said:


> I know he a mix breed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but a worked mix breed


What standard do you want a mixed breed dog to be judged against?


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## devonte151

Hes a pitbullredboy jeep x chow


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## Rudy4747

pookie! said:


> Well I guess his "shallow" chest filled out some then!
> 
> I didnt hear any of the other faults before, which is very interesting and now gives me something to compare and contrast while looking at dogs with better conformation.
> Thanks for the compliments, it helps me look at dogs conformation in a more educated way, pretty interesting even if he is just a mutt.


Yeah his chest looks like it could be a touch deepre but seem pretty dang close to lining up with his elbow. Unless I cant see ti from the photo.


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## pookie!

Rudy4747 said:


> Yeah his chest looks like it could be a touch deepre but seem pretty dang close to lining up with his elbow. Unless I cant see ti from the photo.


He has white on his chest so it might be hard to see... but it pretty much lines up with his elbow


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## kldgo

He's a mutt, but just curious how you guys think he looks up: This is all new to me, but very interesting.


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## 4MyBoy

*Structure*

Oh this is an awesome thread, I love it. Now I have to go get my pic on here
for critique. Thanks so much.:thumbsup:


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## pookie!

Now I know these arent the best lol but attempting to catch this dog still and in a somewhat proper stacked position is damn near impossible.. so I think I did pretty well considering!


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## Stephan

My pup is more of a Bully but I was wondering if you good folks could give me some feedback (positives/negatives) on her build. Flaws and faults etc! Oh and if she has some good things going on I'd like to know that as well :doggy::roll: Not exactly stacked photos but it's all I got as of now


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## ::::COACH::::

Eh just because she is blue doesn't mean she has to look more bully...  she looks more AmStaff/APBT if you ask me  both her parents looked more AmStaff in my opinion. Right now she is still more lean so I am think when she matures fully she will look more AmStaff. 

Anyway, Lisa does a good job at structural critiques. So hopefully she pops in and sees this. From what I have seen of Luna she has nice tight feet, straight legs, good depth of chest, good ears, good length of tail...in some of these pictures she looks to have a narrow front assembly/chest area and could some some angulation on the rear end.... It's tough because one of the pictures make her look like she has a high rear and no angulation and then in another it looks fine  that is why stacked pics from all angles is best. This is just me giving my opinion from these pictures and a few others of her I remember seeing. She is a pretty girl!


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## Stephan

::::COACH:::: said:


> Eh just because she is blue doesn't mean she has to look more bully...  she looks more AmStaff/APBT if you ask me  both her parents looked more AmStaff in my opinion. Right now she is still more lean so I am think when she matures fully she will look more AmStaff.
> 
> Anyway, Lisa does a good job at structural critiques. So hopefully she pops in and sees this. From what I have seen of Luna she has nice tight feet, straight legs, good depth of chest, good ears, good length of tail...in some of these pictures she looks to have a narrow front assembly/chest area and could some some angulation on the rear end.... It's tough because one of the pictures make her look like she has a high rear and no angulation and then in another it looks fine  that is why stacked pics from all angles is best. This is just me giving my opinion from these pictures and a few others of her I remember seeing. She is a pretty girl!


Thanks Coach. Interesting.....While we were walking the other day, a random guy who claimed to know his ish mentioned Luna looking like an Amstaff.

And you are right, her legs are very straight with minor easty/westy feet  I was told her tail length was perfect and that her ears are "rose ears" which is desirable as far as natural ears go? Her chest is indeed rather narrow (compared to most pups on this forum) which makes her legs closer to one and other. Given she is only 1 years old and will fill out a tiny bit in the chest area over the next 12 months, hence separating her front legs/stance a little more.

I was also told that "narrower" legs like hers ensures that she will be agile and athletic......which boy is an understatement with her. The girl is athletic as they come. Special thanks to getting her on that flirt pole young. :love2:

Hopefully Lisa pops in and can critique! I will in the meantime try and get a proper stacked photo (s).


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## Rudy4747

She is a oretty nice gyp not very bully at all. She a bit long amd streight in the styfle. Making her back end sit high. But shebdoes have nice front streight nice tight feet. Her back end structually is her weakness, problem with that is the back end is the most points to the total score in the ADBA standard.


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## Stephan

Rudy4747 said:


> She is a oretty nice gyp not very bully at all. She a bit long amd streight in the styfle. Making her back end sit high. But shebdoes have nice front streight nice tight feet. Her back end structually is her weakness, problem with that is the back end is the most points to the total score in the ADBA standard.


Thanks. What's a gyp? And a styfle? Aside from her body, how about her face and head structurally? Does her skull/muzzle size and shape lead you to believe she's more AmSt, Apbt or Bully?


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## pookie!

Looks like a generic bully breed mutt, probably more AmStaff influence than anything or "Classic" AmBully style.

I tend to say my mutt could be more AmStaff because of his build etc but again, just a mutt in the end.

As stated rear is not great, straight stifle makes her ass end up higher than it should be. 
Here is where the stifle is on a dog 









Also that diagram you posted COACH is not good at all, terrible examples and not really showing the dogs bodies really in any of the pictures. Although the dog looks more AmStaffy/Classic AmBully than anything


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## Pink

I agree with Coach. She just doesn't fit the standard. She lacks breed type, completely. Classic's, even with less substance/mass, should still exhibit 'bully' traits, according to the standard. Those traits being:


> Blocky/heavy heads; short/square muzzles; heavier bone, muscle, and compact body. Overall more bone and substance than the modern and more "terrier type" American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier.


She reminds me, so much, of a female version of Pookie's Bear. I'd just call Luna whatever Pook refers to Bear as, LOL.


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## Jabu

Thoughts on my Jabu??? Appreciate all answers!








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[/URL][/IMG]


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## Katey

Is it possible for you to get a picture from the side of him standing. It's difficult to see his structure properly if he is lying down. Also if you can get on of him from the front with him standing.

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## Jabu

hi i will try to post the pictures - he is 24 weeks.


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## ::::COACH::::

Yes, please get some level stacked pictures of him. Is he a registerd APBT? That muzzle looks like something else is mixed in there like shepherd or something.


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## Stephan

Is it a fault to have the front legs too close together (narrow) rather than straight down from the withers? What are the health/physical issues with such?

Given Luna is only 13 months and may broaden/widen in the next 11 months, I feel that she is a tad "narrow" in the front. Her legs come straight down but somewhat taper in (thank god not out/bow legged) :rain::doggy:

She also has a very minor case of the easty/westy. I can never tell though haha. One day she stands stright the next she's all over the place! up::doggy:

Here's her current specs. She seems a tad long as well? I read that female Amstaffs are generally an inch or 2 longer than the males.

13 months and 49lbs

Length: 21" (Length - Withers to base of tail)*
Neck: 17"
Head: 18"
Height: 19.5"

Not the best photos sorry


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## MSK

Louie Why not haven't done him














































Wow didn't realize I'm really limited on stack photos with him and all the ones I do have are free stack. hmmmmm You know what that means PHOTO SHOOT!!! Yea maybe tomorrow.


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## Carriana

This is a reminder that this thread is for discussions of structure and faults only (against the APBT standard, there's a separate thread in Bullies 101 for bullies), let's keep it on topic please. Here's the OP by Lisa just so we're clear on the intent of the thread.



performanceknls said:


> This thread will show examples of structure the good and the bad. So this thread does not get out of control with pictures of everyones dogs there will only be a few dogs posted at a time. *Feel free to comment the good and the bad you see on the dogs.* Any posts with pictures that were not approved will be deleted, we want to focus on only a few dogs at a time and hopefully it should be educational and fun.
> 
> To offer photos please post here
> http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/28793-photos-structure-faults.html
> 
> Here is a pictures that show different parts of a dogs body if you are not clear on what we are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will start with dogs that show under the APBT standard
> 
> Tempest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Minor Faults
> Tempest could use more drop in chest, her chest does not come all the way down to her elbows so it is a little shallow.
> 
> Her shoulders are a little straight and it does affect the way she turns in agility. Especially in UKC straight shoulders are becoming more common and breeders really need to pay attention to them because they effect the movement of the dogs.
> 
> Now the good parts of her structure
> She is balanced overall and square
> Nice head
> Great front and pasterns everything straight and in line
> Great angulation in the rear and nice tail set


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## Buddy's Master

Buddy's Master said:


> Though Buddy is still young (turning 4 months on the 25th), these are his pics from 9 to 10weeks old. Haven't taken nicer pics recently.
> 
> I know he has easty-west forequarters (genetic, as his dad got dat too).
> The edge of the rib-cage does show at times, not sure what causes that. Could it be health related? Not sure.
> 
> Please assess and comment (sorry for the angle of pics).
> 
> On the last 2 he was 12 weeks old.


I wonder if this thread is still active.
My boy is almost 16months now, wonder how would he be judged now.


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## ::::COACH::::

For ADBA standard, I'd say he has a nice head, tight feet, good length of tail. Better pictures would help, but he needs more stifle bend ( they are fairly straight).


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## DieselsMommie

Lol you know when I first got D I thought his back legs were bent too much I didn't know they were suppose to be. I thought they had to be straight like the front :/

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## ::::COACH::::

Lol!! Well, there is such a thing as too much stifle bend! It's one of my biggest peeves...lol


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## Katey

Jones has seemingly stopped growing. He is now 8 months old. Was interested in opinions on his shape. I haven't really worked on stacking him because I won't be showing him. This is how he stands while he waits for me to throw the ball for him.



His tail isn't normally like that. He is whipping it around waiting for me to throw the ball.

we are what we do repeatedly. excellence is then not an act, but a habit. - Aristotle


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## allyssahooker93

Thoughts on Lilo? When we got her the guy never told us exactly what she was. I know she's some kind of bully breed.





















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## pitbullmamanatl

allyssahooker93 said:


> Thoughts on Lilo? When we got her the guy never told us exactly what she was. I know she's some kind of bully breed.
> View attachment 42297
> 
> View attachment 42305
> View attachment 42313
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She is cute whatever she is. I do not critique pets darlin I'm sorry.

She looks super happy with you!

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## allyssahooker93

pitbullmamanatl said:


> She is cute whatever she is. I do not critique pets darlin I'm sorry.
> 
> She looks super happy with you!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you 

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## ::::COACH::::

The pictures are not stacked so its impossible to give a conformation opinion.  get some stacked pics and we can give you a conformation opinion based on the standard for the breed she closest resembles.


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## allyssahooker93

::::COACH:::: said:


> The pictures are not stacked so its impossible to give a conformation opinion.  get some stacked pics and we can give you a conformation opinion based on the standard for the breed she closest resembles.


Stacked?

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## pitbullmamanatl

::::COACH:::: said:


> The pictures are not stacked so its impossible to give a conformation opinion.  get some stacked pics and we can give you a conformation opinion based on the standard for the breed she closest resembles.


Sorry! I thought this was my American Bully structure and fault thread lol going back to my side if the house now!

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## DieselsMommie

Katey said:


> Jones has seemingly stopped growing. He is now 8 months old. Was interested in opinions on his shape. I haven't really worked on stacking him because I won't be showing him. This is how he stands while he waits for me to throw the ball for him.
> 
> 
> 
> His tail isn't normally like that. He is whipping it around waiting for me to throw the ball.
> 
> we are what we do repeatedly. excellence is then not an act, but a habit. - Aristotle


He looks great Katey!! This pic is totally motivation for me bc he's the same age as D

Flirt pole time chubs needs to get in shape...

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## Katey

DieselsMommie said:


> He looks great Katey!! This pic is totally motivation for me bc he's the same age as D
> 
> Flirt pole time chubs needs to get in shape...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Jones LOVES to run. So throwing a ball is working out great. I don't think he will ever be chunky. He has so much energy. I play fetch with 2 different balls. The one is a rubber golfball sized that gets some good speeds. It's his chew ball, so he gets amped when it gets thrown for him.

Have you posted pics recently of D? How talk is he now? Jones is now about 18in at the the withers.

we are what we do repeatedly. excellence is then not an act, but a habit. - Aristotle


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## ::::COACH::::

Stacked is where the dog is standing and you take a picture level with the dog.


----------



## allyssahooker93

::::COACH:::: said:


> Stacked is where the dog is standing and you take a picture level with the dog.











That's the best I can get, she never stops moving lol

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## kldgo




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## Rudy4747

kldgo said:


>


Little streight in the shoulder and slightly high tail set. But all in all solid bulldog!


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## tirinkovu

*my two*

Bad pics i know, but what do ya think?


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## tirinkovu

Oh neytiri the black an white female is alil over a year old, kovu the rednose is 16 weeks old...


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## TheHiddenAngel

My boy isn't registered with any kennel club and I won't be showing him but I would love to hear some opinions 
I know for a fact that he is a little short in the neck but I was wondering if he looks like he is lacking good rear angulation, I think he is.


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## Indie

How about opinions on my soon to be New dog? She is Indie's niece, and is 100 pts into her UKC CH, but needs majors. She was a year old in Dec., and these are pics from Nov.



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## Carla Restivo

Indie said:


> How about opinions on my soon to be New dog? She is Indie's niece, and is 100 pts into her UKC CH, but needs majors. She was a year old in Dec., and these are pics from Nov.
> 
> 
> 
> I really like her over-all type. To pick at her, I'd like to see her chest a bit deeper (more filled in there between her front legs); and it's really hard to see her front end from that angle, but it appears it's set on a little too far forward; and the rear could use a bit more angulation.
> 
> She looks like a dog that can do things!


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## Indie

Carla Restivo said:


> Indie said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about opinions on my soon to be New dog? She is Indie's niece, and is 100 pts into her UKC CH, but needs majors. She was a year old in Dec., and these are pics from Nov.
> 
> 
> 
> I really like her over-all type. To pick at her, I'd like to see her chest a bit deeper (more filled in there between her front legs); and it's really hard to see her front end from that angle, but it appears it's set on a little too far forward; and the rear could use a bit more angulation.
> 
> She looks like a dog that can do things!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! I can't wait to go get her!!
> I saw the same things, but always like to get others' input.  I like what the breeding did to add length of neck to her, vs her auntie. Other litter mates got better turn of stifle, but the dam didn't help the fronts. Getting hard to find good fronts in UKC APBTs! If I ever get around to producing a litter, I hope to start out improving the stifle and front.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
Click to expand...


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## BasterdBoy88

I know one thing pitbulls arent suppose to make nobody insecure.i would hate to have a dog that was under qualified after 3 years of not knowing what a ass i would feel like..


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## BasterdBoy88

12 week old pup i wanna get rid of not to satisfied with his features..has a mut face..nice stack will get pictures this afternoon.


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## BasterdBoy88

Red nose dog believed to have been a victim of overshot


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## Indie

BasterdBoy88 said:


> Red nose dog believed to have been a victim of overshot


A victim of overshot? And, IMO, he may just have a snipey muzzle.

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## Steinlin

Mr Greenwood developed the ADBA standard by taking the pics of top Ch & Gr Ch's and then sat down with a number of the top dogmen of the day. They looked at what all these dogs had in common and averaged out a standard.
It is very hard to place a standard that applies to all dogs(and that wasn't the goal)it was just to have some sort of guideline to follow, based on the structural similarities that some of the best had in common. An overall view is looked at, which brings together a myriad of structural types and in turn reverts back to "structural integrity will show in the performance"










What some look at as a fault or a deficit, others look at as a small piece of the whole pie, that can be enhanced or compensated for with work. I am NOT, however, speaking of deformaties


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## RobT

*Oppinion of Wrigley?*

Would love an evaluation of Wrigley my 17 week old pit. Just interested in strengths and weknesses. https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## Katey

RobT, it is difficult to give an evaluation from those angles. 

Your best chance for an evaluation would be to get Wrigley to stand and then take a picture level with his side. So that you can his exact shape. Then tak one from that same level but look at him head on.


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## RobT

Thank you I will get it done. Just curious as to what people smarter than I thought. For me... He's perfect, but I am a little biased : )


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## jimxxx

Imho Wrigley looks fine to me. I think he will be a nice1.


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## yhave1ne

[/URL][/IMG]

This is my one and only baby Cuze. He is 9 months old and I am not looking to show or anything I just wanted your opinions.


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## yhave1ne

I tried to get him to stand still for better pics but he and I have some work to do there.


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## ::::COACH::::

Hello! Well we could evaluate him as an Amstaff, APBT or American Bully. If you don't know his breed its ok we can do it based on what he closest resembles of the three, which to me would be more of an American Staffordshire. Anyway, he has nice tight feet, chest is at the elbow so that is where it should be, he does looks a little too long and his rear is a little high. 
Still a very handsome boy! And I love his ears!


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## yhave1ne

Thanks for the response and the compliments! We bought him as a pet only and were told he was an APBT but I wasn't sure about that. The first trainer we took him to wanted us to get papers and train him for shows. I, personally, am not interested in that but I wanted to see if he was a good representation of the breed. 
I would like to get him involved in some contests or something that will help to keep him active and mentally stimulated though. I love his ears too!


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## ::::COACH::::

Yeah he doesn't have the best conformation...but still a handsome pet! most APBTs arenot blue either,blue is typically more of an American Bully or Amstaff color.


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## TeamCourter

Man my boy has some poor angulation in those back legs!


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## BCdogs

TeamCourter said:


> Man my boy has some poor angulation in those back legs!


Pig does too! She's a little butt-high.


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## TeamCourter

She is, but she's cute 
I'll have to get some pictures of Gem I can post in this thread for evaluation
EDIT: That was a response to you BC, but now I don't see the pictures we both just posted.


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## ::::COACH::::

Lol yes to both of you  but ive seen way worse! TC he probably isn't as bad as ya think, could be the angle of the picture. I love a nice angulated rear, but I also can't stand OVER angulated rears, those are just as bad as straighter ones.


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## BCdogs

::::COACH:::: said:


> Lol yes to both of you  but ive seen way worse! TC he probably isn't as bad as ya think, could be the angle of the picture. I love a nice angulated rear, but I also can't stand OVER angulated rears, those are just as bad as straighter ones.


Totally agree! Angles definitely change it. Pig can look more angulated in certain pictures, but she's always a bit butt high and it's more natural for her to stand with her legs under her.


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## ::::COACH::::

Yes you are right with her! However the dog is comfortable to stand tells us what their structure is truly like. Best seen when gaiting...Some folks in the show ring have to literal hold their dog in the air barely hovering over the ground to hide faults. I just let mine stand naturally.  of course I watch out for high and low spots and such or if the dog is standing out of the ordinary ill fix it.


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## BCdogs

::::COACH:::: said:


> Yes you are right with her! However the dog is comfortable to stand tells us what their structure is truly like. Best seen when gaiting...Some folks in the show ring have to literal hold their dog in the air barely hovering over the ground to hide faults. I just let mine stand naturally.  of course I watch out for high and low spots and such or if the dog is standing out of the ordinary ill fix it.


Huh, that's ridiculous that people do that! I really don't know a whole lot about conformation, except that neither of my dogs' conformation is great, lol. Love learning about it.


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## ::::COACH::::

Rear angulation...Lucius is pretty decent. Tandie has the best of my crew. 









See how even though her leg is extended, it's still angulated? That's nice


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## BCdogs

Yeah, they are both so gorgeous! Is Tandie your show-dog-in-training?


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## ::::COACH::::

Haha I show all of my dogs even if they aren't the greatest...it's good for the breed and supports the local club  but I'd say Tandie is my best one conformation-wise. Pyra is pretty decent too! Lol but I prefer thicker dogs.


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## BCdogs

Awesome! It's probably such a great experience for you and the dogs, even if they don't win! Clearly you're doing alright with a Ch under your belt though.  

My trainer just got a new pup and I'm hoping she's going to let me come to some shows with her in the future if she decides to show him. He's the most gorgeous little jet black pup and I'd love to experience the show scene with someone I know!!


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## ::::COACH::::

Oh for rusher you should! It's so fun!  my favorite part is the athletic events that ar now starting to be at the shows like wall climb, lure course, Top Dog, and tug of war. Most are for fun so any dog can compete, mutt or not. Only Too Dog is sanctioned for now


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## BCdogs

I wish I could!! Squirt would absolutely LOVE lure coursing or agility but unfortunately with his DA it's just not possible. I can't imagine him being able to focus on anything other than the dogs present at an event, no matter how hard we work on reactivity training. Piggy is also pretty agile but as she's gotten older I've realized that she's 100% pet, she really doesn't have the drive necessary for sports. But Anthony's pretty much accepted the fact that as soon as we get property we're getting another dog. I plan on going to a breeder next time and getting a dog that I can start out competing with. Can't wait, and I'm sure I'll have 8 million questions when the time comes, lol!


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## TeamCourter

::::COACH:::: said:


> Lol yes to both of you  but ive seen way worse! TC he probably isn't as bad as ya think, could be the angle of the picture. I love a nice angulated rear, but I also can't stand OVER angulated rears, those are just as bad as straighter ones.


 You are right the picture does make them look a little bit worst now that you say that, but I have noticed that he has a lot less angulation than Gemini.


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## RobT

Have added more pics of Wrigley to hopefully get a better critique... hope this helps some. https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## Rudy4747

Wrigley is a good looking. I would have to say just looking his type screams bully. Meaning in the APBT or ADBA standard he doesnt fit type. This come from her being such a thick dog from nose to tail. That being said i know nothing of bully standard
standard. I can say he is a balanced dog with pretty good angles front and just slighty lacking in the rear. Nice chest all in all looking as a bully he is a good looking dog. Might fit well in the classic or standard category for the ABKC.


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## TeamCourter

My girl has weak pasterns doesn't she?


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## ::::COACH::::

Her foot doesn't look like its fully resting on the ground, but from this pic it doesn't look bad at all.


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## TeamCourter

She seemed to be standing normally when I took the picture, but I'll get a different picture at some point today. I could just be worried about nothing, I do that a lot! I need to get a good stacked picture for you to look at so you can tell me everything I need to know.


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## ::::COACH::::

Yeah you should get one!  plus we need an update


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## TeamCourter

So I couldn't get the best picture because she kept trying to auto sit, plus it was night time and neither my video camera or iPad have a flash. Her pasterns look a lot worst to me here, but that's why I chose it (the others didn't really show my concerns).








I have some other new ones for update, but I'll post those in her progress thread.


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## BCdogs

Pig seems to be growing out of her butt-highness a little, lol! She's having a little growth spurt right now and getting taller.


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## RedemptionVA

Hope this thread is still live.


http://s48.photobucket.com/user/dev...4-12-26163249_zpsacca9285.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s48.photobucket.com/user/dev...2-10-11-57-29_zpsf098e2ed.png.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s48.photobucket.com/user/dev...141121_095149_zps90cc850d.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0


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## ::::COACH::::

TM-- gem is so cute! Her pasterns really aren't thar bad at all trust me  

BC-- yeah she is leveling out for sure, yay for growth spurts!

Redemption-- your girl is looking good-- how old was she when she became UKC Champion? I don't know their standard well so it's hard for me to critique but she is very pretty, definitely looks like a UKC dog


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## RedemptionVA

Coach, she was just over 13 months when she finished her championship. Thanks for the compliment.


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## MSK

RedemptionVA said:


> Hope this thread is still live.
> 
> 
> 2014-12-26163249_zpsacca9285.jpg Photo by devin_williams8 | Photobucket
> 
> New Champ Photo by devin_williams8 | Photobucket
> 
> IMG_20141121_095149_zps90cc850d.jpg Photo by devin_williams8 | Photobucket


I can't tell alot on some points since shes positioned funny with her facing the camera. Mind you i am still learning as I go about UKC APBt standard with Lou. She has a nice head well tapered nose and strong jaw but, her jaw is slightly more masculine then typical(if your like me you like this though LOL). Her neck looks shorter then desired but, is nice and strong it appears. Front angles are decent but the upper looks slightly and i mean just slightly longer and lay back could be a little better. I have this issue with Lou however, your girl has a better depth of chest then my boy and her upper is not as noticeable. Her elbows however by the picture look to set out further then they should maybe just slightly outward. Pasterns are little weak and short. She has a nice loin most that are not knowledgeable about this fact (it is supposed to slightly arch) would say she looks roached but far from it so her top line is really nice imo. Tuck is decent and rear angles good maybe could use a little more but, has a great stifle. Good tail set and length. Feet aren't as I personally like for UKC standard but are good could use a little more arch. Again I am learning and could be way off because pictures sometimes can totally not do the dog justice.


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## RedemptionVA

MSK said:


> I can't tell alot on some points since shes positioned funny with her facing the camera. Mind you i am still learning as I go about UKC APBt standard with Lou. She has a nice head well tapered nose and strong jaw but, her jaw is slightly more masculine then typical(if your like me you like this though LOL). Her neck looks shorter then desired but, is nice and strong it appears. Front angles are decent but the upper looks slightly and i mean just slightly longer and lay back could be a little better. I have this issue with Lou however, your girl has a better depth of chest then my boy and her upper is not as noticeable. Her elbows however by the picture look to set out further then they should maybe just slightly outward. Pasterns are little weak and short. She has a nice loin most that are not knowledgeable about this fact (it is supposed to slightly arch) would say she looks roached but far from it so her top line is really nice imo. Tuck is decent and rear angles good maybe could use a little more but, has a great stifle. Good tail set and length. Feet aren't as I personally like for UKC standard but are good could use a little more arch. Again I am learning and could be way off because pictures sometimes can totally not do the dog justice.


MSK I truly appreciate the indepth review. Please explain what you mean by her pasterns being weak and short. I don't see pasterns on the chart at the beginning of this thread. I am really torn about whether to breed her once all health testing is done, and I attempt to finish her in weight pull and agility. Her ped is a mess with a lot of bully behind her. If everything were to check out, what would you look for in a stud to compliment her strengths and strengthen her weaknesses? Thanks again for your input. Truly helpful


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## circlemkennels

Weak pasterns are something that can be fixed.. doesn't determine whether a dog has breeding potential


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## MSK

I think shes gorgeous as Circle M said pasterns are kind of a minute part of the structure and can be fixed. A far as structure goes I think she is a great looking dog and would probably produce some nice ones. What exactly is her pedigree?

This is the main source I use when I'm comparing my dogs and looking at their faults and there are many diagrams not here as well some have posted on this forum

American Pit Bull Terrier Network Pit Bull Encyclopedia A to Z about the APBT


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## RedemptionVA

Thanks CircleM. I can definitely see where her's are weak. Does the way she's stacked affect that at all. She's not with me currently so I can't see for myself.


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## circlemkennels

Usually not but can easily be fixed by raising their food and water bowls and sometimes changing feed.


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## RedemptionVA

MSK said:


> I think shes gorgeous as Circle M said pasterns are kind of a minute part of the structure and can be fixed. A far as structure goes I think she is a great looking dog and would probably produce some nice ones. What exactly is her pedigree?
> 
> This is the main source I use when I'm comparing my dogs and looking at their faults and there are many diagrams not here as well some have posted on this forum
> 
> American Pit Bull Terrier Network Pit Bull Encyclopedia A to Z about the APBT


I'm learning so much. Bully, bully, bully behind her. I'm not sure how she came out like she did, but I'm grateful. Never intended on showing or breeding, bought her for the kids last Christmas. Just interested in what she'll produce if bred to a correct male. Here is partial ped, only ordered 3 gen, waiting on 7 gen ped.

CH Redemption's Miss Laila Waldron


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## RedemptionVA

circlemkennels said:


> Usually not but can easily be fixed by raising their food and water bowls and sometimes changing feed.


I'll definitely try that. Want to get her as ready as possible before entering the champion class. Thanks for the advice.


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## MSK

The way shes stacked is fine but, sometimes it can affect the look of them as can nails and weight.

This was Lou Show day his look upright here










Its hard to tell but, long nails and his look weak










Akiliya free stack at show weight










But, when she packed on the pounds


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## MSK

RedemptionVA said:


> I'm learning so much. Bully, bully, bully behind her. I'm not sure how she came out like she did, but I'm grateful. Never intended on showing or breeding, bought her for the kids last Christmas. Just interested in what she'll produce if bred to a correct male. Here is partial ped, only ordered 3 gen, waiting on 7 gen ped.
> 
> CH Redemption's Miss Laila Waldron


Other then her mother's mother she looks to be all bully I found dad in the system

BullyPedia | The Premiere All Bully Breed Certified Pedigree Database

And Penn's diesel the Mother's Sire on Bully Pedia

BullyPedia | The Premiere All Bully Breed Certified Pedigree Database


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## MSK

Sorry for not answering your breeding question. Considering at this point seeing her pedigree my eval really has no merit as it is by APBT standard not American Bully and she is an American Bully by all accounts from her breeding. I would personally make sure she is registered as an American Bully through UKC if she is not and I would look for a well conformed male. I would take her back into some Old Razor's Edge look for a breeder that has health tested and you want to make sure you study the grand parents as when you are breeding most likely the grandparents genetics and features will win out. Make sure the hips have been checked within the last 3 gens because she is off Blue of Ruckus blood and I vaguely remember Hip Dysplasia from his way for some reason.


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## RedemptionVA

MSK said:


> Sorry for not answering your breeding question. Considering at this point seeing her pedigree my eval really has no merit as it is by APBT standard not American Bully and she is an American Bully by all accounts from her breeding. I would personally make sure she is registered as an American Bully through UKC if she is not and I would look for a well conformed male. I would take her back into some Old Razor's Edge look for a breeder that has health tested and you want to make sure you study the grand parents as when you are breeding most likely the grandparents genetics and features will win out. Make sure the hips have been checked within the last 3 gens because she is off Blue of Ruckus blood and I vaguely remember Hip Dysplasia from his way for some reason.


Her OFA hip prelim is excellent.

So you're saying that not based on her merit, but the merit of her ancestors, I should disregard what you and several other members on this board have said about her, not to mention the UKC judge that felt she was the best animal in the entire terrier group (as an APBT) at the MAKC show AND throw her UKC championship (as a APBT) away and register her as an American Bully? Interesting.

As far as breeding. Why stop at old RE stuff? Go back a little further and you run into Sierra, Gaff, Larum etc. I know that it would take years before I would see any consistency in breeding, but isn't that how the greats got what they were looking for. I guess my other option would be to go buy a bitch from a well known kennel and produce exactly what everyone else is producing. It would be a lot easier. Then I wouldn't have to work nearly as hard and the ped would be just like everyone elses.

Thank you for your honest opinion.


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## MSK

Here's the honest truth from my opinion a conformation title to CH isn't much in UKC(Why Lou isn't one yet not going to put myself in a bind for a CH Title that I've seen really crappy dogs get just because someone brought an even crappier dog to give the show competition) you can do that in a weekend as long as you have competition. Due to the problem for years of Bullies not being recognized as a separate breed many judges themselves have a "bully" structure in mind for the best looking dog. That's my opinion. I had one judge who doesn't like APBT's but, gave Lou such high regard as far as structure for Terrier. Then I had another who's fav are APBT's but, he placed the bully whom was clearly bully due to his story and his past. So many judge's differ I had a feeling about your girls lineage considering her head and neck are slightly over done compared to standard. I am a firm believer in knowing what you have and sticking with it. No one is saying stick with the crowd but, why take her into an APBT or AmStaff pedigree when there is no guarantee she has actual Pure AmStaff lineage?? There are people everyday breeding RE with all those lines nothing new about that. How is that being different??


Stopping at old RE will give the most consistency for her ped... I could send you to several kennels right now who has run their dogs into all the lines you listed and is bred much like your girl nothing new about any of it..


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## RedemptionVA

MSK said:


> Here's the honest truth from my opinion a conformation title to CH isn't much in UKC(Why Lou isn't one yet not going to put myself in a bind for a CH Title that I've seen really crappy dogs get just because someone brought an even crappier dog to give the show competition) you can do that in a weekend as long as you have competition. Due to the problem for years of Bullies not being recognized as a separate breed many judges themselves have a "bully" structure in mind for the best looking dog. That's my opinion. I had one judge who doesn't like APBT's but, gave Lou such high regard as far as structure for Terrier. Then I had another who's fav are APBT's but, he placed the bully whom was clearly bully due to his story and his past. So many judge's differ I had a feeling about your girls lineage considering her head and neck are slightly over done compared to standard. I am a firm believer in knowing what you have and sticking with it. No one is saying stick with the crowd but, why take her into an APBT or AmStaff pedigree when there is no guarantee she has actual Pure AmStaff lineage?? There are people everyday breeding RE with all those lines nothing new about that. How is that being different??
> 
> Stopping at old RE will give the most consistency for her ped... I could send you to several kennels right now who has run their dogs into all the lines you listed and is bred much like your girl nothing new about any of it..


Again, I respect your opinion. Maybe you're right. This is probably not the best thread for this discussion, but I'd definitely like to continue it. Message me, if you like. But I will end with this. I am not trying to do something new. I have a dog that is "gorgeous" (using your words); moves beautifully; a champion (however little that means); has excellent hips (with more testing to come); one that I have invested a lot of time, money, and love into; and that I, personally, like the look of (I do not care for the bully look). Somehow, out of all of the bullies behind her, she came out looking more similar to a UKC dog. Even had one member on here say that her look is not what they think of when they think of a UKC champion. Because of all of the overdone stuff behind her, there is a possibility that every one of her traits is recessive (I may not be using the correct terminology), but if she is bred to a dog where those same traits are dominant, wouldn't that increase the chances of their offspring having those traits? I do know that there is more to genetics than I understand. I also know that I will not breed her to a bully where there will be almost 100% certainty that she will produce dogs that I won't like the look of. Time will tell.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment.


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## MSK

I will continue more in message but, just because its bully doesn't mean it wont be the look you desire but she will more then likely going produce dogs like her grandparents which are bully.


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## megan&herc

Deleted, thought I was in the bully section.


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## Thepitmaster

Is my dog an American pitbull terrier or an American staffirdshire terrier


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## jttar

Thepitmaster said:


> Is my dog an American pitbull terrier or an American staffirdshire terrier


It is impossible to know a dogs breed without having peds that show it's lineage. In another post you mention that your 10 month old dog is already 70 lbs., which is already large for even a full grown APBT or a Staffordshire terrier. My guess is a mixed breed with some type of bully in the mix.

Joe


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## ::::COACH::::

Neither. It's a mutt  there are like 20 different bull breed dogs out there. Without legit pedigree there's no way of knowing the breed. That being said, she is very pretty!


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