# Did you know that the APBT and the AST are the same breed and that Am. Bullies ....



## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

don't exist as a breed?

:hammer::hammer:

Sometimes on other forums I'm confronted with such stupidity, lol.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

All depends on perspective, but the Am Bully has its own registry thus it is now a recognized breed; however, facts seldom change what someone wants to believe.


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## Deadbolt (Dec 30, 2010)

Ignorance is bliss I tell ya! I use to love fighting people...now I just smile and walk away. In the end you achieve better results...they will never want to be educated and you wont get frustrated.

I still have the sudden urge to slam a sledge hammer on their hand every time I hear stuff like that...thank god I dont act on those impulses anymore hahaha.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, you see, the bully thing I can understand. Very new breed trying to rise from the dirt of bad breeders and get towards a recognizable and consistent breed standard.

But the APBT/AST??? You can not tell me that a show AST is the same as a show APBT, LOL.


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## Pitbull Palace (Feb 5, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> Well, you see, the bully thing I can understand. Very new breed trying to rise from the dirt of bad breeders and get towards a recognizable and consistent breed standard.
> 
> But the APBT/AST??? You can not tell me that a show AST is the same as a show APBT, LOL.


I'll Tell you what some of the Problem is from my point of Veiw. when i was working at the HS back in the Mid 90's I had just realized what a good breed pit's were. Thats when i rescued 2 (as ive told this story lready) At that time i bought 3 BOOKS and i still have them in a box somewhere. Razers Edge Throwin Knuckles was on the Cover of 1 and so was His Father. All the Books where Titled " The American Pitbull Terrier & American Staffershire Terrier". 1 Of them even had a Section on the Staffershire Terrier, wich i thought was the Cutest little Pack of muscles around.
I read the Books Over and Over trying to understand WHY the 2 breads Looked a Bit Different. In thes Book Amstaff's where the Boxyer of the 2, a bit shorter, and a Head that was more Squere IMO. Now thats not to say that it couldnt of just been the Bloodlines in the Amstaff's, as Im not a Expert...The Books Describe the 2 Breeds as THE SAME !! They staited that it's ONLY because of the Registry that they are called 2 Differnet Breeds. Until i Joined this Forum i was STILL under this Impression Even though I Own a Male AMSTAFF and can see with my Own Eyes he was nothing Like my Pure Bread Female Pit. NOW we have thrown another Similure breed into the Mix, " BULLY". I have Only heard of Bullies over the Past YR. Im sure they have been around Longer as i bought the books w/ Razor in the 90's, But Im in the Blacktop Business not Pitbull/Dog, so i havent followed. When I was Looking for a New PUP (Diamond) I googled The ASPCA's, HS in my surounding states. I saw Several Pit's and Bullies however Bully's Looked Nothin like the Pit's who Im familure with. I googled Bully's and Found IRONMAN PIT's as well as Others Claiming to breed XXL Bully Pit's... Well that CONFUSED the Heck out of me seeing that They look more like a Cross Between a Old English Bulldog and Possibly a Staffy head or like some Kind of Mastiff w/a Wringly Head. Well that turned me away, Them Calling them Pits and Me Thinking that they were now a MUT and also a Mut of Breeds I know nothing about. I did like the fact that they are said to be NON Animal Aggressive, But i wasn't lookin for a 13" high Bulldog. I was looking to replace TAYA which was a beautiful Loyal Pure APBT.
I now have Learned ( on this forum) That what I read was wrong and some of the Bully sites (breeders) are full of Dog Due) because they are accually advertizing Bully's as Pit/Mastiff on _*some*_ Web pages....lol...To make a LONG story short, The Mass confusion is kinda funny, and it's here nore there to me sence i don't show the breed, I'm just a Guy lookin for a Good Companion  But thats my Veiw of why so many are Ignorant Including me, It's Kinda Like Politics i guess, They say and write about what they think will sell someone on somthing somtimes No matter if it's Been researched or Not. This is the Most Informative Forum ive ever been a Part of, and im glad i joined as to in the back of my mind i was still wondering about these things, lol...


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

> The Books Describe the 2 Breeds as THE SAME !! They staited that it's ONLY because of the Registry that they are called 2 Differnet Breeds.


^ I'm surprised they said that. I don't understand how they can be the same when the AKC has had their books closed (and thus their bloodlines closed) to the APBT since 1976. IMO, too many generations have gone by for them to be the same. There are certain similarities yes, but they are different and will only get more different as time passes.


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## Pitbull Palace (Feb 5, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> ^ I'm surprised they said that. I don't understand how they can be the same when the AKC has had their books closed (and thus their bloodlines closed) to the APBT since 1976. IMO, too many generations have gone by for them to be the same. There are certain similarities yes, but they are different and will only get more different as time passes.


I agree, and also I think its funny that Throwin Knuckles was on the Cover of my First APBT Book Now that ive been Informed He's a Bully breed.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Pitbull Palace said:


> I agree, and also I think its funny that Throwin Knuckles was on the Cover of my First APBT Book Now that ive been Informed He's a Bully breed.


I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but I think, Throwin Knuckles was actually an Amstaff. He was used as a foundation for RE bullies but he himself (despite being a Razor's Edge produced dog) was not one.


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

None of them are breeds. Try telling that to the APBT breeders that have worked for over 100 years to better them, and to the Amstaff people who have changed alot about their dogs to make them their own, and while your there ask the bully crowd who are doing their very best to get their dogs to their own standard and stand on its own as a breed.


People tell me this all the time. Doesnt bother me, they dont have to own them. They are the people i have the very least amount of time for.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> Well, you see, the bully thing I can understand. Very new breed trying to rise from the dirt of bad breeders and get towards a recognizable and consistent breed standard.
> 
> But the APBT/AST??? You can not tell me that a show AST is the same as a show APBT, LOL.


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## scparrish (Jan 8, 2010)

people don't understand or cope with something new very well so it takes time bullies are a very new breed no one is bashing bullies


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> ^ I'm surprised they said that. I don't understand how they can be the same when the AKC has had their books closed (and thus their bloodlines closed) to the APBT since 1976. IMO, too many generations have gone by for them to be the same. There are certain similarities yes, but they are different and will only get more different as time passes.


Surprisingly allot of books you pick up at a lets say petsmart or other store like this say the same thing not stating differences. So it come as little sunrise that allot of people find it hard to understand. And even more get confused when people start talking about the game dog amstaff issues.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Lone Star said:


>


I wasn't bashing bullies, lol. I love a correct bully. But there are a lot of bad breeders out there that aren't breeding to standard, and those are the ones that people invariably buy as pets or as part of their breeding program because they don't know what a correct bully should look like. You guys are still getting your act together and because of that there's a lot of misinformation out there. You can't deny that.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

lol...okay entertain me...bully breeders aren't breeding to the standard...which breeders are you referring to...that you've actually seen their stock...or are we repeating what we've heard others say...
for every crappy bully breeder you can show me....i will match you a byb breeding off the apbt name...lol...cmon...don't make generalized statements like this unless your really ready to back them up...if you wanna play...lemme know


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## scparrish (Jan 8, 2010)

are we doing the apbt vs. bully thing again. byb bully breeders advertise as apbt 99.99% of the time. majority of people on earth can't distinguish what a true apbt, when they think pitbull they are actually visualizing bullies, so yeah it's easy to believe some people don't recognize the bully as a breed despite the abkc recognizing them as their own breed, lets be realistic.


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## Gimbler (Jan 29, 2010)

Pitbull Palace said:


> I'll Tell you what some of the Problem is from my point of Veiw. when i was working at the HS back in the Mid 90's I had just realized what a good breed pit's were. Thats when i rescued 2 (as ive told this story lready) At that time i bought 3 BOOKS and i still have them in a box somewhere. Razers Edge Throwin Knuckles was on the Cover of 1 and so was His Father. All the Books where Titled " The American Pitbull Terrier & American Staffershire Terrier". 1 Of them even had a Section on the Staffershire Terrier, wich i thought was the Cutest little Pack of muscles around.
> I read the Books Over and Over trying to understand WHY the 2 breads Looked a Bit Different. In thes Book Amstaff's where the Boxyer of the 2, a bit shorter, and a Head that was more Squere IMO. Now thats not to say that it couldnt of just been the Bloodlines in the Amstaff's, as Im not a Expert...The Books Describe the 2 Breeds as THE SAME !! They staited that it's ONLY because of the Registry that they are called 2 Differnet Breeds. Until i Joined this Forum i was STILL under this Impression Even though I Own a Male AMSTAFF and can see with my Own Eyes he was nothing Like my Pure Bread Female Pit. NOW we have thrown another Similure breed into the Mix, " BULLY". I have Only heard of Bullies over the Past YR. Im sure they have been around Longer as i bought the books w/ Razor in the 90's, But Im in the Blacktop Business not Pitbull/Dog, so i havent followed. When I was Looking for a New PUP (Diamond) I googled The ASPCA's, HS in my surounding states. I saw Several Pit's and Bullies however Bully's Looked Nothin like the Pit's who Im familure with. I googled Bully's and Found IRONMAN PIT's as well as Others Claiming to breed XXL Bully Pit's... Well that CONFUSED the Heck out of me seeing that They look more like a Cross Between a Old English Bulldog and Possibly a Staffy head or like some Kind of Mastiff w/a Wringly Head. Well that turned me away, Them Calling them Pits and Me Thinking that they were now a MUT and also a Mut of Breeds I know nothing about. I did like the fact that they are said to be NON Animal Aggressive, But i wasn't lookin for a 13" high Bulldog. I was looking to replace TAYA which was a beautiful Loyal Pure APBT.
> I now have Learned ( on this forum) That what I read was wrong and some of the Bully sites (breeders) are full of Dog Due) because they are accually advertizing Bully's as Pit/Mastiff on _*some*_ Web pages....lol...To make a LONG story short,* The Mass confusion is kinda funny, and it's here nore there to me sence i don't show the breed, I'm just a Guy lookin for a Good Companion  But thats my Veiw of why so many are Ignorant Including me,* It's Kinda Like Politics i guess, They say and write about what they think will sell someone on somthing somtimes No matter if it's Been researched or Not. This is the Most Informative Forum ive ever been a Part of, and im glad i joined as to in the back of my mind i was still wondering about these things, lol...


I'm totally with you on this! And glad to know I'm not alone in my confusion, even if you do have a better handle on it than I do. And for the record I now officially have no idea what Maggie is, and not just cause she's a rescue with no papers. I honestly don't see the difference between APBT and AST that seems so apparent to everyone else. :hammer:


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Lone Star said:


> lol...okay entertain me...bully breeders aren't breeding to the standard...which breeders are you referring to...that you've actually seen their stock...or are we repeating what we've heard others say...
> for every crappy bully breeder you can show me....i will match you a byb breeding off the apbt name...lol...cmon...don't make generalized statements like this unless your really ready to back them up...if you wanna play...lemme know


??? Why is this being turned into an bully vs APBT thing? I don't have an issue with bullies?

BYB of bullies are not breeding to standard, I thought I said that pretty clearly, and those are the breeders that you see when you google for a bully pup or an APBT; I would say they are the majority right now. Finding a good kennel takes a lot of time and effort that regular joe schmoe either doesn't care about doing or have the knowledge to do. Thus, BYB who are just breeding for wide or low or bulky bullies without thought for the standard (which keeps function and conformation in mind) are going to be making money and are thus going to keep perpetuating their practices.

These breeders are the reason people think the American Bullies shouldn't be their own breed -- because people don't realize that there are correct and conformational dogs out there. I never said these people were right. Just that it was understandable.


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## Pitbull Palace (Feb 5, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> ???
> BYB of bullies are not breeding to standard, I thought I said that pretty clearly, and those are the breeders that you see when you google for a bully pup or an APBT; I would say they are the majority right now. Finding a good kennel takes a lot of time and effort that regular joe schmoe either doesn't care about doing or have the knowledge to do. Thus, BYB who are just breeding for wide or low or bulky bullies without thought for the standard (which keeps function and conformation in mind) are going to be making money and are thus going to keep perpetuating their practices.QUOTE]
> 
> YOU NAILED IT !!!!!! :cheers:


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## Pitbull Palace (Feb 5, 2011)

Gimbler said:


> I'm totally with you on this! And glad to know I'm not alone in my confusion, even if you do have a better handle on it than I do. And for the record I now officially have no idea what Maggie is, and not just cause she's a rescue with no papers. I honestly don't see the difference between APBT and AST that seems so apparent to everyone else. :hammer:


I Found a GOOD Description of the 2 Breed Standards ONLINE. If you google it you'll find that there are Differances in Body Type, including Hight,Maybe only By a Tiny bit, But still Different, Also there are Head/Jaw Features listed SLIGHTly Different. My male is a Perfect Example for me, And TAYA was the Perfect APBT, so i had a Great Example to help me Learn. Taya (APBT) TO ME looked More Athletic, more Sleek, Anyone can correct me if im wrong on Whats the NORM, and thats Not to say Amstaffs arent athletic looking. In laymonds term I would describe what I see as a Guard vs Running back. (A BIT EXAGERATED for my Point) Or a Power lifter vs Bodybuilder. Rocky (AMSTAFF) is shorter/Square head, and therfore Looks Stockyer.

PS, Warn me If I say anything that can get me banned, lol...There Droppin like Fly's..hahahah


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## DoggyStyle (Jan 8, 2011)

Ill Tell Y'all a story. Ling time ago I was looking for a house. I was young good job no credit but I was ready to rent. Had a dog named duce. Duce was a purebreed Am Staff had papers an all. So I called a guy bout renting his house. We talked for literally 1 minute I told him I had a dog he asked what kind. I said am staff he said "Oh hell no a pitbull conversation over good bye" now what this guy didn't know is I had 3,000 dollers in the bank saved to move right in right then. His house sat there on the market to kept trynna rent it out never could. That is the reason I don't hold conversation with people to many times about my dogs now a days unless there willing to learn an not assume they know it all


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

That's a good point.

We're the only people who care about the differences in our dogs. To everyone else, a pit bull is a pit bull is a pit bull.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

k8nkane said:


> Well, you see, the bully thing I can understand. Very new breed trying to rise from the dirt of bad breeders and get towards a recognizable and consistent breed standard.
> 
> But the APBT/AST??? You can not tell me that a show AST is the same as a show APBT, LOL.


No, sure can't, they are different. But genetically the same breed, they can't be separated/told apart that way. No breeds were crossed to make an AST (which is just an AKC name). Are they different, yes, different types within a breed. Just as AKC show line Border Collies are the same breed as the working / ABCA dogs. But looks and temperament wise are Different from one another. They are bred in mind for those differences in their body type, temperament and drive.

So technically they are they same breed, but they are not the same in type. This is seen in lots of breeds, BC, GSD, Rott, Dobie....the list goes on. The only difference is AKC use of the name AST where other breeds are still known by the same name in AKC despite the big difference in type.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

During the 30's the AKC added the APBT to their registry under the name Staffordshire Terriers. Since this was a new name for the breed they needed a standard and a committee was put together to choose a dog for the standard. Colby's Primo was the dog that that was chosen to write the breed standard. 










ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [865] :: COLBY'S PRIMO


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## Gimbler (Jan 29, 2010)

102_2896 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I googled up this description from Pit Bull Rescue Central: Pit Bull Rescue Central
And have read this thread, and have been reading this forum for the last year and I still really don't see enough of a difference between the two to say a particular dog looks more like one than the other. Can someone who possesses the magic eye and has a minute to spare take a look at Maggie and give an opinion. She's just my pet, we don't compete in anything and I didn't adopt her because I thought she was one thing or the other - (except for sweet) it would just be nice to know what I'm supposed to call her.

These are a couple of short videos of her playing with Jake so you could see her moving and at different angles.
The Enforcer | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
maggie jake playing_3 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

It's Very Simple Function and Purpose is what separates the AKC Amstaff from the APBT regardless if they are genetically tied ... Purpose is what divides the 2 breeds today. The APBT is a working dog selectively bred for gameness. The AKC staff is a show dog selectively bred for conformation/show ring.


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## Chloesmygirl (Jan 31, 2011)

Old_Blood said:


> No, sure can't, they are different. But genetically the same breed, they can't be separated/told apart that way. No breeds were crossed to make an AST (which is just an AKC name). Are they different, yes, different types within a breed. Just as AKC show line Border Collies are the same breed as the working / ABCA dogs. But looks and temperament wise are Different from one another. They are bred in mind for those differences in their body type, temperament and drive.
> 
> So technically they are they same breed, but they are not the same in type. This is seen in lots of breeds, BC, GSD, Rott, Dobie....the list goes on. The only difference is AKC use of the name AST where other breeds are still known by the same name in AKC despite the big difference in type.


I'll agree mostly with this post. Since testing dogs is now illegal in this country it could be argued that they are no longer being bred for "working purposes." Some are game bred, which may or may not mean anything.

Gimbler, I wish I had the magic decoder ring to tell you what breed your dog is. Sadly, I do not. But to even confuse you more, I'll throw in one more possibility. Maybe your dog is a UKC APBT! Not an AKC Amstaff or an ADBA APBT dog, but just maybe a UKC APBT. Or how about a pitterstaff? :roll:


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## Pitbull Palace (Feb 5, 2011)

Chloesmygirl said:


> I'll agree mostly with this post. Since testing dogs is now illegal in this country it could be argued that they are no longer being bred for "working purposes." Some are game bred, which may or may not mean anything.
> 
> Gimbler, I wish I had the magic decoder ring to tell you what breed your dog is. Sadly, I do not. But to even confuse you more, I'll throw in one more possibility. Maybe your dog is a UKC APBT! Not an AKC Amstaff or an ADBA APBT dog, but just maybe a UKC APBT. Or how about a pitterstaff? :roll:


I could also ADD to the Mass confusion and say it's a possible BULLY, LMBO....Like I found out I have this wk..hahahahahah..

*NEW ABREVIATION-* _LMBO= Laugh my Bully OFF_ ! HAHA


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## Gimbler (Jan 29, 2010)

You guys are killing me! LOL What if I just call her an "exceptionally attractive labrador retriever"? Could save on insurance!


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## Pitbull Palace (Feb 5, 2011)

Gimbler said:


> You guys are killing me! LOL What if I just call her an "exceptionally attractive labrador retriever"? Could save on insurance!


I Like that Idea :clap: lol


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Gimbler said:


> 102_2896 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> I googled up this description from Pit Bull Rescue Central: Pit Bull Rescue Central
> And have read this thread, and have been reading this forum for the last year and I still really don't see enough of a difference between the two to say a particular dog looks more like one than the other. Can someone who possesses the magic eye and has a minute to spare take a look at Maggie and give an opinion. She's just my pet, we don't compete in anything and I didn't adopt her because I thought she was one thing or the other - (except for sweet) it would just be nice to know what I'm supposed to call her.
> ...


I see a clear difference in type between them. Even dogs like those from Hartagold have a specific body and head type, though the proportions/size is similar to your average APBT. Those AST are the old school type I find attractive, but I still see the body style. There are APBT which look similar because they are of the same blood (the AST) but on average it is easy to tell between the 2 types. AST have variance in their size and balance, but they still have a recognizable body style / head shape. Typically.

Can't tell you what your dog is exactly, could be an APBT but could also have some AST blood being a Pitterstaff as they are called by some. It gets difficult if a dog isn't clearly of AST type because it doesn't mean they don't have staff blood.

I've had dogs with some staff blood that looked all APBT. There are also game dogs in history that have AST in the pedigree which don't look staff like, but those are the older style staff and are insignificant to the current descendants. Like Ferris' Red Hot for example.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Sadie said:


> It's Very Simple Function and Purpose is what separates the AKC Amstaff from the APBT regardless if they are genetically tied ... Purpose is what divides the 2 breeds today. The APBT is a working dog selectively bred for gameness. The AKC staff is a show dog selectively bred for conformation/show ring.


That's actually over simplified and a broad generalization.

There are many APBT who are not game bred, but they are still APBT. Some are bred for no work at all. There are APBTs bred for conformation.

Let me ask are all of your Pits bred for gameness? If not and to all which are not what do you call them? They are not AST as that is simply an AKC chosen name. If they are not AKC or of those lines they are not AST. I've had APBTs which were not bred for gameness but I still said they are APBTs rather than saying I have 2 non American Pit Bull Terriers.

Some AST don't go back to their APBT foundations until 16 generations, but there are others which it is 8th generation and for a couple generations after there was still some game breeding with some of them. I certainly know of APBTs which haven't been bred for gameness for about the same amount of time.

If a dog is of game parents and bred for gameness but his grandsire is an AST he is still 1/4 AKC staff lines though bred for gameness.

The AST is genetically a purebred APBT or whatever you wish to call them. Not simply genetically tied. They are indeed different just as vast differences exist in many breeds. An AKC show line Doberman vs a Euro working bred Doberman. As I mentioned with Border Collies its the same as with Pits, there is typically a difference in type between a AKC show line BC and a working BC. Some working BC look like mixes to average Joe, just like some game bred Pits are. So there is a clear division in type - build, temperament, drive.

There are breeders in the USA breeding Kangals strictly show titled, non working. After sometime there is no doubt in my mind that these dogs will loose their working ability, drive, change in temperament will take place. They will however still be pure bred and genetically the same breed as the working dogs. We will sadly see a huge difference like we do in other breeds.

There are only a few other breeds in which reg. choses a different name.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

I'm sure my post was long enough lol...but something related to this discussion and dogs in general 

What defines a breed? It seems to loosely be breeding together generation after generation of pure bred dogs, meaning no crossing to another breed. The AST fits that criteria, certain but are clearly different than an APBT and certainly to a game bred APBT. Though to say they are 100% totally a separate breed doesn't fit. As to that then theoretically a show GSD, a byb GSD, a working need GSD would all be different breeds and require a different name.

So what defines a breed.....genetics or purpose? I see it as a little of both, genetics can't be thrown aside when saying 2 dogs are pure of the same breed (even if they are very different) but then again I can't deny that purpose is a defining characteristic of a breed. So it is a little sticky. But when it comes to the show issue there are APBT bred for conformation, not gameness, whether that is for 6 or only 2 generations. No one seems to question what they are, they still seem accepted as APBT. When you grossly deviate away from a breed I believe you could be setting the basis for a new breed without cross breeding.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Old_Blood said:


> I'm sure my post was long enough lol...but something related to this discussion and dogs in general
> 
> What defines a breed? It seems to loosely be breeding together generation after generation of pure bred dogs, meaning no crossing to another breed. The AST fits that criteria, certain but are clearly different than an APBT and certainly to a game bred APBT. Though to say they are 100% totally a separate breed doesn't fit. As to that then theoretically a show GSD, a byb GSD, a working need GSD would all be different breeds and require a different name.
> 
> So what defines a breed.....genetics or purpose? I see it as a little of both, genetics can't be thrown aside when saying 2 dogs are pure of the same breed (even if they are very different) but then again I can't deny that purpose is a defining characteristic of a breed. So it is a little sticky. But when it comes to the show issue there are APBT bred for conformation, not gameness, whether that is for 6 or only 2 generations. No one seems to question what they are, they still seem accepted as APBT. When you grossly deviate away from a breed I believe you could be setting the basis for a new breed without cross breeding.


Good luck I have tried to say this same thing but Some people are not having it. It is to hard for some people to understand that there is type in a breed. Show working, pet and so on.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

LOL, well......... humble like  IMO.... if it aint [] bred, from proven parents or grands with in the first 3 or 4 gen, it aint a pit; unless proven itself  Just registered as a pit. That doesnt hold much water with me Whopper, Bulliesmastiffs, and all sorts of American bulldog APBT crosses carrying APBT registery papers in ADBA and UKC and AKC.. SO NOW WHAT? Return to the building blocks  only way to ensure great genes and to insure one has a pit bulldog/bull terrier.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> LOL, well......... humble like  IMO.... if it aint [] bred, from proven parents or grands with in the first 3 or 4 gen, it aint a pit; unless proven itself  Just registered as a pit. That doesnt hold much water with me Whopper, Bulliesmastiffs, and all sorts of American bulldog APBT crosses carrying APBT registery papers in ADBA and UKC and AKC.. SO NOW WHAT? Return to the building blocks  only way to ensure great genes and to insure one has a pit bulldog/bull terrier.


And there you have it lol :goodpost: lord don't even try fh its not worth it lol


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Old_Blood said:


> That's actually over simplified and a broad generalization.
> 
> There are many APBT who are not game bred, but they are still APBT. Some are bred for no work at all. There are APBTs bred for conformation.
> 
> ...


That's because what I would classify as an apbt is much different than what you would consider or classify an apbt based on your response. I don't use the term game bred any longer as my mentor has corrected me in that there are game dogs who have proven themselves and the there are APBT'S who stem from proven dogs anything else is just that anything else. I don't care anything about the show stuff or dogs bred for show those are just staffs IMO. Everyone has there opinions I agree with fire hazard rule of thumb for me anything after 3-4 generations of no game tested dogs is pretty much a staff. Not saying everyone should agree with me but it's what I believe to be correct based on what I have learned about gameness and breeding for the box and what happens when a breed or select group of dogs is bred away from it's intended purpose after so many generations the original purpose has shifted and it can no longer be upheld to the original standards or purpose it doesn't take long to breed away selective traits. Anyway agree to disagree lol.

Ps all my dogs stem from game tested dogs where it counts you wont find any show dogs in my dogs peds.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Lets say you drop a pitterstaff or even an am-staff in the box and it prove it self game then what do you have. As you historians know there where a couple am-staffs proven game. Just did not have as much skill. Game is an attitude. You have dogs from proven stock that are not game so what does it make these dogs. There are even great producers that were just hard mouthed curs. So what does that do for them, and there offspring?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy if you take a modern day staff box it get some wins on it and breed select stock for gameness after several generations you have shifted that select stock from show stock to game stock. You would have to be selectively breeding for gameness and culling the curs. If it's just a tested am staff who won a match it would just be a game am staff lol. But to take show stock and shift it from the show ring to the box it would take more than just one dog being matched. You would have to breed for an entirely different purpose and that would be silly because the staff is now a show dog lol. I am sure people will try anything though lol


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sadie said:


> *Rudy if you take a modern day staff box it get some wins on it and breed select stock for gameness after several generations you have shifted that select stock from show stock to game stock*. You would have to be selectively breeding for gameness and culling the curs. If it's just a tested am staff who won a match it would just be a game am staff lol. But to take show stock and shift it from the show ring to the box it would take more than just one dog being matched. You would have to breed for an entirely different purpose and that would be silly because the staff is now a show dog lol. I am sure people will try anything though lol


So The select stock from this game Amstaff, Would it not still be an amstaff? 
Or would you now call it an APBT. What do you call the APBT that are now cath dogs and not tested dogs?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

If its a game tested amtaff with wins its just an am staff proven game . If you are a breeder who wants to take select show stock and start breeding it back to working stock for the box I am saying its going to take breeding that show stock selectively for gameness, culling the curs, for several generations before you can claim you have real working stock. You cant just do it with one dog and with one breeding. And why would you want to do that anyway? When you already have working stock out there already bred for that function and purpose tested and proven it's just a silly idea to begin with.

As myself and fire hazard have stated in our humble opinions a game dog is an apbt who has been tested and proven its merits in the box. An apbt should stem from at least 4 generations of game tested dogs the closer the better anything after that would mean there has been no working proven stock after 4 generations of no game testing the selective traits become weakened, water downed, and eventually non existent. To keep gameness alive one has to be actively testing and breeding for it generation after generation. Hypothetically speaking Rudy if you were a dog man pre 1976 would you want a dog in your breeding program who hasn't had any game dogs in the last few generations? Would you breed a show dog or a dog with no recent wins behind them or a dog with no game tested dogs up close in the pedigree for the box? Just something to think about your objective is to produce winners and your chances are higher to produce consistent working stock if your breeding dogs who have been worked up close or proven themselves. My opinions are just that my opinions .... I welcome you to research yourself. Also I know you think that gameness is just a state of mind but gameness is the sole reason the apbt was originally bred for and is still bred for where the laws of the land permit it. So the breed is still being preserved for it's sole and intended purpose. Gameness to me is much more than just a state of mind.


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## LoudMouf (Feb 2, 2011)

Sadie said:


> I don't care anything about the show stuff or dogs bred for show those are just staffs IMO. Everyone has there opinions I agree with fire hazard rule of thumb for me anything after 3-4 generations of no game tested dogs is pretty much a staff.





Sadie said:


> If its a game tested amtaff with wins its just an am staff proven game.


With all due respect, you can't have your cake and eat it to. If the distinction between APBT and Amstaff in your opinion is the ability to perform the original task, you can't deviate. Just because someone decides to show their dog and not game test their dogs, does not mean their dogs have lost the ability to do such tasks.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LoudMouf said:


> With all due respect, you can't have your cake and eat it to. If the distinction between APBT and Amstaff in your opinion is the ability to perform the original task, you can't deviate. Just because someone decides to show their dog and not game test their dogs, does not mean their dogs have lost the ability to do such tasks.


Without actively breeding and testing for gameness each generation it cannot be retained. Please refer to my entire post as it's clearly explained. I don't know of any dog man who would bet on a show dog do you? I Also don't know of any dog man nor have I heard of any dog men using show stock and breeding select show dogs for the box. Is it possible for a modern day show staff to perform in the box ?sure... is it likely ? No sorry I don't believe it is gameness is rare in itself but without actively testing and breeding for it your chances of producing winners is slim. So on that note if your implying that the majority of show bred dogs coming down from show stock could excel in the box against real working stock and win I would have to disagree with you. I also can't think of anyone who would use a show dog for said purposes.


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## LoudMouf (Feb 2, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Without actively breeding and testing for gameness each generation it cannot be retained. Please refer to my entire post as it's clearly explained. I don't know of any dog man who would bet on a show dog do you? I Also don't know of any dog man nor have I heard of any dog men using show stock and breeding select show dogs for the box. Is it possible for a staff to perform in the box ?sure... is it likely ? No sorry I don't believe it is gameness is rare in itself but without actively testing and breeding for it your chances of producing winners is slim. So on that note if your implying that the majority of show bred dogs coming down from show stock could excel in the box against real working stock and win I would have to disagree with you. I also can't think of anyone who would use a show dog for said purposes.


I am not impling anything. I am simply stating just because a dog excels in the show ring does not mean it can't be a working dog. The bottom line is not as many dogs are being game tested, but that doesn't mean that the dogs aren't being game tested have lost their ability to perform the task originally asked of the breed, they just aren't being used for their original purpose. Any responsible show breeder SHOULD be breeding dogs (of any breed) for it's original purpose, in fact the standards themselves are not just written up words they explain the best structure for the dog to accomplish the goal. Yet I will agree with you, most breeders do not follow that moto and do lack the idea of moderation therefore you get overdone examples of every breed in the show ring. BUT that doesn't make the dogs any less of their respective breeds, just not always the ideal working examples of such. The dilemma I have just discussed is even worst in breeds like the GSD, but you can't just turn and say show GSDs aren't GSDs because they cannot perform like they should.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

it's happened A few times.back in the day there were several show side(thats the way many guys back then refered to staffies)pits that caught fire or turned on and were added back to a yard.
what has happened,as that was 25 years ago,theirs been alot of time and breeding.in some papers,that show the staffordshire dogs from game lines,as we've said before,some dogs were as deep game as they were deep staff.
I'm wonderin why folks still find this A worthy topic.
their was A guy that had 2 staffs.they just ran outside of the chain dogs.
one day someone made an offhanded comment,it was bantered back to the owner of the staff.
well, the commenteer went and got A dog,they put them down, and next thing you know,the staff was bred,unregistered, and A few offspring from that litter tested out and went on to "work".
the female was 7 years old,called to duty,never had a hook in her,and she went down through the other dog.
them carolina red springs boys knew their dogs.


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## MASTERPIECEBULLIES-KEVIN (Nov 13, 2010)

hehe !


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

My whole point loud mouf is without testing for gameness and selectively breeding for it the trait becomes lost. And you can't say for sure if said dog is game if you don't put that dog into the box a dog has to prove itself before it can carry the name game dog. I can't call my dogs game no matter what's behind them because they haven't proven themselves the way they were intended to be proven. I call my dogs bulldogs because of how they are bred but papers don't mean jack until the dog has done something to live up to those papers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shows dogs or showing dogs nor is there anything wrong with breeding for the show ring if you don't want to end up in jail it's wise to look the other way. For those enthusiasts who believe in breed preservation and keeping the bulldog alive views will vary about where the line is drawn based on how the dog is bred and purpose. Just so you know I am not saying there is anything wrong with show dogs I just prefer working bred bulldogs that is my passion. I resepect any show breeder working their dogs to the extent the law will allow them.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I was never saying it would be right for someone to do say just saying why does it matter if the dog is game tested. Does not mean the dog is any less APBT. Any dog at any given time could prove it self game. Does not have to be a APBT. Worthy subject that shows any dog from game tested lines or show line can and is APBT. You can't ave it both ways. Saying only tested APBT are real APBT and a game tested show dog is just a game tested show dog.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sadie said:


> My whole point loud mouf is without testing for gameness and selectively breeding for it the trait becomes lost. And you can't say for sure if said dog is game if you don't put that dog into the box a dog has to prove itself before it can carry the name game dog. I can't call my dogs game no matter what's behind them because they haven't proven themselves the way they were intended to be proven. I call my dogs bulldogs because of how they are bred but papers don't mean jack until the dog has done something to live up to those papers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shows dogs or showing dogs nor is there anything wrong with breeding for the show ring if you don't want to end up in jail it's wise to look the other way. For those enthusiasts who believe in breed preservation and keeping the bulldog alive views will vary about where the line is drawn based on how the dog is bred and purpose. Just so you know I am not saying there is anything wrong with show dogs I just prefer working bred bulldogs that is my passion. I resepect any show breeder working their dogs to the extent the law will allow them.


That does make a little sense I think it just bothers me that some says that not an APBT cause it is not proven. No It is not a "Gamedog" cause it has not proven game.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy its a matter of opinion ... You have to respect the fact that other people will not agree. I didnt make the rules you can't fault the creators of the breed either for breeding these dogs for said purpose. Or for those die hard enthusiasts who believe in breed preservation. I am one of those people who supports breed preservation and the show ring while admirable and a positive way to promote the breed is not what these dogs were bred for. Show your dogs and don't worry about what others think. People have opinions it's life lol.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Rudy its a matter of opinion ... You have to respect the fact that other people will not agree. I didnt make the rules you can't fault the creators of the breed either for breeding these dogs for said purpose. Or for those die hard enthusiasts who believe in breed preservation. I am one of those people who supports breed preservation and the show ring while admirable and a positive way to promote the breed is not what these dogs were bred for. Show your dogs and don't worry about what others think. People have opinions it's life lol.


Look I am sorry if it came off as argumentative. I was really trying to get a strait answer not just that is what some old dogman said. Because the people who I have asked could only give me that answer. I'll keep seeing what I can learn. Sorry if it bothered you that I was asking. My dogs are good show dogs and great working dogs. So I try not to worry t much. Just was picking brains. And I know I choose touchy subjects some times. But If they were easy questions, I would have probably found a strait answer by now. Thanks.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Old_Blood said:


> That's actually over simplified and a broad generalization.
> 
> There are many APBT who are not game bred, but they are still APBT. Some are bred for no work at all. There are APBTs bred for conformation.
> 
> ...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy4747 said:


> Look I am sorry if it came off as argumentative. I was really trying to get a stasit answer not just that is what some old dogman said. Because the people who I have asked could only give me that answer. I'll keep seeing what I can learn. Sorry if it bothered you that I was asking. My dogs are good show dogs and great working dogs. So I try not to worry t much. Just was picking brains. And I know I choose touchy subjects some times. But If they were easy questions, I would have probably found a strait answer by now. Thanks.


Rudy there is nothing wrong with your questions but depending on who you ask your going to get different answers. Your not being argumentative I am just saying you love your dogs and you show them do what you do regardless of what anyone here thinks you are entitled to believe what you want. If you ask me my opinion I will give it to you straight. You didn't bother me sorry if I came off like you were. I just don't want you to get so hung up on titles. If someone asks me if their dog is an apbt I want to see a pedigree I am looking for something tested in the first 4 generations if I don't see all bulldogs with some box wins thrown in I personally wouldn't call it an apbt but that's just me someone else would. It's a line that is drawn depending on who you ask your going to get different opinions.


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## Padlock (Nov 19, 2010)

i agree with sadie,...if it's not from tested parents it's not
game bred. I'm so harsh as to believe if not from winning 
dogs in the first 2 gens,it had no business getting bred,... 
as the game trait is hard to attain, and even harder to keep.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Padlock said:


> i agree with sadie,...if it's not from tested parents it's not
> game bred. I'm so harsh as to believe if not from winning
> dogs in the first 2 gens,it had no business getting bred,...
> as the game trait is hard to attain, and even harder to keep.


Understood my question was never is it game bred. It was if the dog was not tested does that not make it an APBT? But as she stated probably to many opinions to get a good answer. I have no questions as to what is a game bred dog. I am a fan of the game bred dogs. And what I hope to own one day. I am actually with you on this one by saying it is probably not enought to test game. But you should only bred the best that you can find. This means winners.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Paddy you are not the first I have heard say that it just goes to show how opinions vary but for dog men breeding for the box they are only breeding game proven dogs because it increases their chance of producing and retaining gameness in the offspring.


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## Padlock (Nov 19, 2010)

we have to assume that most aren't capable breeders, and not
all have the knowhow or talent to breed. i think if you have viable 
stock and breed for yourself it's one thing, but to be a true breeder
of consistent game dogs it takes so much more than just pairing
two dogs and getting lucky. and just so there is no confusion, i do
not consider my self a breeder,... just a loyal hobbyist and fancier.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Padlock said:


> we have to assume that most aren't capable breeders, and not
> all have the knowhow or talent to breed. i think if you have viable
> stock and breed for yourself it's one thing, but to be a true breeder
> of consistent game dogs it takes so much more than just pairing
> ...


Well said buddy I wholeheartedly agree :goodpost: from one fancier to another well spoken :clap:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Just ask Tom garner right paddy ? Lol


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## Padlock (Nov 19, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Just ask Tom garner right paddy ? Lol


i have more respect for the man than i could convey
on many levels, but he does know his body of work
better than anyone who may state otherwise.
the funniest thing i always here is, "i wouldn't 
get a dog from him (tg) but someone who raises working lines.
no one has better representations of the Chinaman/Frisco/Spike
blood than tom garner,..NOBODY!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rudy one thing I wanted to mention is you will notice a lot of times the line is drawn between game dog owners and show owners we don't usually agree on this subject because of one thing and that's purpose. That's why you will see us argue over this game dog owners many of them believe in preserving these dogs in the box where as show breeders believe they can retain gameness through other avenues so this is where you will typically see the difference of opinions come in. Lol


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Padlock said:


> i have more respect for the man than i could convey
> on many levels, but he does know his body of work
> better than anyone who may state otherwise.
> the funniest thing i always here is, "i wouldn't
> ...


I know you do buddy if I had to say who His number one supporter was it would be you


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Padlock said:


> i agree with sadie,...if it's not from tested parents it's not
> game bred. I'm so harsh as to believe if not from winning
> dogs in the first 2 gens,it had no business getting bred,...
> as the game trait is hard to attain, and even harder to keep.


:clap: thats when you get a APBT proven stock... thank you thank you !!! otherwise, as Colby said: " I call em' bulldogs, cause thats what they are."


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lol fh where have you been dang it I miss you


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

LoudMouf said:


> With all due respect, you can't have your cake and eat it to. If the distinction between APBT and Amstaff in your opinion is the ability to perform the original task, you can't deviate. Just because someone decides to show their dog and not game test their dogs, does not mean their dogs have lost the ability to do such tasks.


what seperates them is that the APBT is the only dog to continue the GAME gene which is a mental trait; bred for function well at least the stock I consider APBT anyway, LOL... THERE IS AMSTAFF stock that is ALSO APBT STOCK dual registered with ADBA even.. WHY? ... because someone wanted to breed their AST true to original form, and there are no REAL bulldog persay unless you cross over or go talk to Colby which is a crossover IMO cause Colby breeds bulldogs ... the ORIGINAL to all who bare the name ...

AST is not a function dog although considered a terrier, how many AST are bred for and are performance dogs? NOT APBTS rung as AST's to make it softer to people.. ARGH hate AST police dogs, LOL .. Na.. thats a pit.. LOL WHY> Nebbletts has dogs in ADBA UKC AKC as does Colby, Carver, Heinzel, Corvino.. the difference is best put by Howard Heinzel.. 


> The whole.. Once we start breeding our APBTs for looks might as well call them AmStaffs, as thats surely to what they'll be... sums it up.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sorry... its been a rollercoaster ride.. LOL gettin things organized and what not, gotta car to get and a house... ugh.. its fun then it gets queezy.. My ***** in me wants to kickem shoes off and run em off in the hills with the Divine and the Great Mother..  LOL hahaha


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I love that quote by old man heinzel ...... Good post fire hazard


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Sadie what is your definition of an APBT?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Old blood what I would consider or classify as an apbt has already been stated on this thread and a few have agreed with me. I am not going over this again it's a matter of opinion as stated numerous times.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> Sorry... its been a rollercoaster ride.. LOL gettin things organized and what not, gotta car to get and a house... ugh.. its fun then it gets queezy.. My ***** in me wants to kickem shoes off and run em off in the hills with the Divine and the Great Mother..  LOL hahaha


I was beginning to think you bailed on me lmao ... Glad your doing ok


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks! Naw... just crazy busy times.. gotta get up at 3 just to have time to :flush: LOL I always try to get time to get online but being that I wanted to Mr Mom it up and run and pick up kids in the Chevy8 bus .. LOL so................... thats like what I do, Im always going somewhere.


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## DoggyStyle (Jan 8, 2011)

Gimbler said:


> You guys are killing me! LOL What if I just call her an "exceptionally attractive labrador retriever"? Could save on insurance!


Lmao! Like that idea


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

^^^^^^^^^^ thats what the ASPCA and Shelters do! LOL Im always correcting dogs that are pits labled labs.. LOL all too funny!


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Sadie said:


> Old blood what I would consider or classify as an apbt has already been stated on this thread and a few have agreed with me. I am not going over this again it's a matter of opinion as stated numerous times.


I read the post on previous pages. Guess I missed it. You said its different than my own in a reply to me, that is why I asked.

It doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees, I know its a matter of opinion. That's what I asked for basically, your opinion. But you stated it somewhere so oh well.


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