# how many true dog man and women are around



## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

This is a big question what do you think the difference is in the way you breed your apbt compared from the way (BYB) do meaning what do you look for in the bred that's different than the (BYB) ??????


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Thats a great question interested in reading some of the answers.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

I don't breed, but if I did...
Health, structure, conformation, and ability. 
Those would be the top four reasons.

Very good question indeed. Can't wait to see the answers of others too.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Well for starters we should NOT be supporting a BYB...so there is no need to look for a BYB breeder. That's not to say that all "registered breeders" are perfect...you need to do your homework on any body that you buy a dog from imo.

Let's make a simple list of some things you should expect to see from a licensed breeder.
-health tests
-knowledgable of the breed
-looking to improve the breed
-pedigree from a recognized registry
-culls properly (covers all genetic defects or any HA)
-titles (both work or show)...preferably "work" for a apbt

Chances are you will NOT get any of the above from BYB

Edit**I'm at work so I tried to type as efficient as possible lol


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

NoWuCmE... said:


> Well for starters we should NOT be supporting a BYB...so there is no need to look for a BYB breeder. That's not to say that all "registered breeders" are perfect...you need to do your homework on any body that you buy a dog from imo.
> 
> Let's make a simple list of some things you should expect to see from a licensed breeder.
> -health tests
> ...


Well said and very true


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Im not licensed  however I do produce good enough dogs not to receive any complaints yet.. I dont title my dogs either.. (chuckles) I do health test or rather natural selection, survival of the fittest. We do predator control  I produce bulldogs, some may be bandog sized most will be 37lbs and down all of them are sure game fire.. nothing more nothing less.. However unless you know me personally or you have been vouched by someone who does then its not likely you'll ever get a dog from me, just how I roll.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Im not licensed  however I do produce good enough dogs not to receive any complaints yet.. I dont title my dogs either.. (chuckles) I do health test or rather natural selection, survival of the fittest. We do predator control  I produce bulldogs, some may be bandog sized most will be 37lbs and down all of them are sure game fire.. nothing more nothing less.. However unless you know me personally or you have been vouched by someone who does then its not likely you'll ever get a dog from me, just how I roll.


The way it really should be, when producing these Bulldogs, APBTs, etc the only way to ensure these hounds are properly worked and taken cared of (legally, of course) is to ensure you are limiting where your yard travels to.. Theres enough uneducated people out there that shouldn't own a dog, even in higher numbers when it comes to these "bull and terrier" breeds.. Therefore, breed for what you need, keep what you need and ensure all else produced are going to fine hands..

I don't breed however if a day comes, this is more or less how i will operate.. Some of THE best dogs come from private yards, there are very, VERY few public yards i would even remotely think of highly..


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

They are out there...believe me. And they breed in their backyard.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Im not licensed  however I do produce good enough dogs not to receive any complaints yet.. I dont title my dogs either.. (chuckles) I do health test or rather natural selection, survival of the fittest. We do predator control  I produce bulldogs, some may be bandog sized most will be 37lbs and down all of them are sure game fire.. nothing more nothing less.. However unless you know me personally or you have been vouched by someone who does then its not likely you'll ever get a dog from me, just how I roll.


Lol!! A USDA License doesn't count for much other than help keep the breeder accountable.

I know there are a few that are the exception as far as titles go...but its really NOT just about the title...more about the PURPOSE


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Lovin this thread. Private yardss are the best Thats how our forefathers did it and thats why their dogs are still superior to anything youll see today. Once thing went public the quality of dogs depleated. Period


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

I agree with all of the above posts, but everyone seems to have left out the #1 most important thing on their lists... TEMPERAMENT! If we're going to breed for any purpose what so ever, the number one thing to look for should be temperament. Same rule applies if we go to a breeder. Even in a reputable breeder's yard, we need to be vigilant in preserving the main ingredient that makes these dogs so fantastic.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

I am from Germany and the dog culture over there is entirely different from what I've seen over here. 

It was quite a shock to see how different and how much fuzz there is about dogs. Honestly, there is too much fuzz, to little common sense. 

My family is breeding working German Shepherds for over 30 years. Both my parents are involved with the breed for almost 50 years and I grew right into it. Right from the start we followed rules in how to deal with the dogs. 

Things like "constantly taking the food away" wasn't practiced and is not practiced. We've always had up to five, unfixed, adult male Shepherds in the house and not once has there been a single incident with the dogs. 

From the beginning we helped our parents to clean the kennels, exercise the dogs, feeding the dogs etc. 
By the age of 14 I cleaned all those kennels, let the dogs run and fed the dogs myself without any kind or form of supervision. 

If you'd let a 14 year old girl handle over a dozen adult Shepherds you'd be scrutinized by the public in a heartbeat and deemed irresponsible. Back then it was a completely normal thing and everybody in the family had to do his job. 

My sister was bit by a neighbors Shepherd who was a farm dog and lived his life on a chain. Nobody ever would have killed the dog. People knew he was on a chain and had his issues so it was rather "You knew NOT to get too close to the dog." rather than "Kill the dog!" 

In Germany you can't get papers without going through the breed survey and in order to get through the breed survey the dog has to be:

HD/ED tested and deemed healthy, BH (by the age of 15 months), AD (endurance test), IPO1 (SchH1) and have a show result, then the dog can be gekoered meaning deemed breed worthy. 

Both, dam and sire needs the breed survey in order to get papers from the German SV. 

Over here, you register the dog with the AKC and you start breeding. You can have AKC registered dogs and still be a horrible BYB. 

I've never seen puppies being sold out of the back of a truck in Germany. You don't see stray dogs, it happens but it's extremely rare. 
Yeah, we have hoarders and all the common problems with bad owners, abusive owners, we have BSL too but it's not as bad as over here. 

We don't have Kill Shelters either. 
The first time I was confronted with some of the worst owners was when I got married to my husband and we moved on the military post. People only took out their dogs once a day, to pee and poop, turned around and took them back into the house. That's it. When they pcs'ed they dumped the dog with somebody else. 
The German Shelter didn't even accept American dogs anymore because it was an epidemic every PCS rotation and if they found an American dog they contacted the military vets and it went through the chain of command. 

Once we moved to the US I found a Stray the second day. Right in front of our door. His owner would simply shove the dog outside when he left the house and the dog ran away. He travelled four miles. 

Our neighbors simply opened the door and let her three filthy, sickly dogs outside for about an hour. They always showed up at our door steps. 
I've never seen anything like that before and of course, I'm the evil Shepherd lady with the evil dogs. 

Now that we live in a nice neighborhood we still have to deal with loose dogs laying in the middle of the road or going at you. 

You can't take your dogs anywhere. Not on the bus, train, malls, stores... it's an extremely unfriendly country towards dogs. People see your dog as public property. They sneak up behind you and pet your dogs without asking. 
A dog is expected to endure anything and everything. People humanize dogs to a point where it becomes unhealthy for both, dog and human. 

Breeders... boy oh boy... people get two dogs and then want a puppy out of that dog because of sentimental reasons without realizing that it's not going to be the same. Every dog is different. 

Most breeders don't have a clue about genetics, health care, let alone can't even read their own dogs. 
Create designer breeds, breed the son to the dam (seen that online with a Pit Bull breeder and was like "Seriously?", they were extremely proud of themselves too and then they wonder why they have a bad reputation? Because of idiots like them!), just breed to breed and without having a single motivation to better the breed or with any regards or knowledge that they create an extreme bottleneck. 

There is no common dog sense anymore. It doesn't matter which breed you are looking at you see the same thing. 

All I have to do is to go through the topics on here and on the Shepherd Forum and all I can do is to shake my head about the lack of common dog sense and then those people start breeding without knowing what they produce and why they are producing it. They just want to make a couple of hundred bucks and have a puppy for themselves. 

So what is the difference between a BYB and a reputable breeder? 

It's knowledge and purpose, health and the conditions the dog is kept in. 

Most BYB's can't even spell their breeds name. How am I supposed to trust them with everything else if they don't even know how to spell their breeds name correctly?


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## rodrigo (Jun 28, 2011)

by my calculations 239 in the country


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

In my opinion, what separates a BYB from Legit Breeders, is that the BYBs dont have an ultimate goal in their breeding, but to make a quick buck. 

A legit breeder, will tell you who would be best to breed your pup/dog too, and what the outcomes would be. 
A legit breeder will tell you what you should expect of your new puppy. 
A legit breeder will keep in touch with you too see how your puppy is developing. 
A legit breeder will not breed to anything that has four legs.


Another sad thing to this, is that most BYB dogs wind up being neglected and abused, because most people who buy dogs try to cheap out on a purebred, and arent satisfied with the quality of dog they received. Next thing you know, their dog is ranned over, abused, stray, or in a shelter.

I think the good people are the one who get the short end of the stick because at the same time we try to rescue BYB dogs from shelters, from a bad home, from an idiot breeder, and at the end of the day, the breeder only breeds more dogs because his last batch sold out.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Things I would look for 
Ability, temperment, structure, 
Ability is broad scope the dog will need to Excel in any task asked of it. While maintaning a proper apbt temperment. Alert outgoing and not ha. Lastly I hope that while keeping proper bulldogs I hope to produce minimal falts. A nice all around bulldog.
Like FH I have a ring of close friends who I have gotten dogs from and learned about the dogs from. Unless referred by them known personally by myself. Then getting dogs from me is most likely not going to possible when the time comes.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

as a buyer I think I would look for temperment , structure, goal and purpose . to have titles on the dogs isnt important to me honestly alot of great dogs never see a show ring and when you live somewhere where there arent shows for your breed its a little harder. At the same time pedigree and the names on it arent as important as temperment and structure. 
I think a reputable breeder will go the extra steps to ensure you are a good match for the breed vs a BYB who is all about getting that cash. A reputable one follows up with you througout the dogs life to make sure everything is going well vs BYB is done once that money exchanges.
Reputable breeder will also have health records, pedigrees with a reputable registry, and require you to sign contracts with restrictions on breeding, pet homes, show home ect as well as some sort of health guarantee against genetic defaults. Also ontop of that most will do home checks if able too { if shippping its a bit harder} but offer advice and help if ever needed and will always take one of there dogs back at any time if the contract is voided or if something comes up. BYB cares nothing about what happens after the money is exchanged and good luck at getting them to step up if needed. 
Dont get me wrong im sure there are BYB's that will do some of the above like the shots and papers but very few have I seen will take a dog back if needed. You can tell when someone is in it for money and those who are in it for the dogs. Also anyone reputable will have no issue having you over to the kennel and be able to show and answer any questions on the parents and there set up, BYB's can be shady and secretive I have found and not always have the right info when asked.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Honestly, I don't have an issue with it when a breeder is breeding for profit. Breeders have a tremendous amount of costs to cover. Training, Feeding, Shots for the puppies, health evaluations etc. If a reputable breeder also breeds for profit and is breeding quality dogs for a living, titling, certifying and trialing than there is absolutely no problem with a profit. 

Also, it all comes down to dedication. Last year I drove 9570 Miles just for search training alone. There are Schutzhund people out there that drive even more. 

Dogs are expensive. Breeding IS expensive. If you don't have the money to cover a C-section and/or medication for the puppies, don't breed. 
Chances are, if you don't have the money, something WILL happen and you might not only loose an entire litter but the bitch itself as well.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

How many of the old dogmen, you know...whose names appear on true gamebred pedigrees, actually adhered to the standards that have been suggested here? There was one reason they bred these dogs....it didn't matter how pretty the dogs were or what kind of physical examination they could pass or what title they could achieve. There was only one test that mattered. I suppose that's the difference between now and then, and when you're shelling out the dough, I somewhat understand.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Honestly as long as the breeder is being responsible for what they produce that is my main concern. Breeders have different goals and different standards of what they think is right. However as long as they actually see to it that their pet quality dogs are not bred and their dogs are not part of the problem or over population, I don't care much else about whether they choose adhere to what society now says is"proper".


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> How many of the old dogmen, you know...whose names appear on true gamebred pedigrees, actually adhered to the standards that have been suggested here? There was one reason they bred these dogs....it didn't matter how pretty the dogs were or what kind of physical examination they could pass or what title they could achieve. There was only one test that mattered. I suppose that's the difference between now and then, and when you're shelling out the dough, I somewhat understand.


This id true but in this day and age the amount of bybs and shelter "pits" are beyond out of control. If the legal system could regulate who can and cant bree dogs things would hopefully weed it self out. Unfortunately this is near impossible and bsl is the only other alternative they can turn too still not solving the problem and hurting the only ones that matter... The dogs and the responsable breeder/owner


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Do you think the first few "true dogmen", and I'll let the historian buffs decide who they were, would be referred to as a BYB? No real veterinarians available, no certified health tests, no credentials, no guarantees (except pup replacement), these men probably didn't have the income to provide the services expected of the breeders of today...think about it. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't. I would venture to say that a fair number of the "true dogmen" of the past wouldn't make the cut by today's guidelines in defining an acceptable breeder.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> Do you think the first few "true dogmen", and I'll let the historian buffs decide who they were, would be referred to as a BYB? No real veterinarians available, no certified health tests, no credentials, no guarantees (except pup replacement), these men probably didn't have the income to provide the services expected of the breeders of today...think about it. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't. I would venture to say that a fair number of the "true dogmen" of the past wouldn't make the cut by today's guidelines in defining an acceptable breeder.


Of course not. It was different times. Just take a look how much the standard has changed in the past ten years. They wealthier and more comfortable a country becomes they more people worry bout animal rights and breeders. Plus, with the Internet, it's up within a second and you are not only under the scrutiny of your own country but of the scrutiny of the entire 1st world.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I think health test are mostly for dogs with lil to no purpose for working. If the dogs are put to the test in any hard working even today hunting or any truly strenuous activity then the you can see if the dog is truly sound. Real dog men were not concerned with this stuff. But times have changed so has the working aspects of the dogs. So for people who's dogs will never be pushed to the limits of it's ability then well yeah they should do something to prove the dog is worth the time and effort. for me personally I would take a dog from some one I know that says yeah this dog is good sound dog he can work hard for you, over a health tested dog that has done nothing to prove it's worth.
concerned


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> I think health test are mostly for dogs with lil to no purpose for working. If the dogs are put to the test in any hard working even today hunting or any truly strenuous activity then the you can see if the dog is truly sound. Real dog men were not concerned with this stuff. But times have changed so has the working aspects of the dogs. So for people who's dogs will never be pushed to the limits of it's ability then well yeah they should do something to prove the dog is worth the time and effort. for me personally I would take a dog from some one I know that says yeah this dog is good sound dog he can work hard for you, over a health tested dog that has done nothing to prove it's worth.
> concerned


Urm... I'd like to know if my dog is healthy and fit for work before I dump all the money into the dog. There goes a lot of training, time and money into the training for a SAR dog.

In general it takes up to three years to train a SAR dog for certification. I'm doing it for little over a year and my bitch is ready to certify. That is a LOT of training. All that training and money would be lost if it turned out that she had HD/ED. So I'd rather check BEFORE I start working the dog instead of having lost all that time and money and standing there without a dog. That's just a waste of resources. Sounds cruel but there is a reason why departments and working dog handlers do all the health testing.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Rudy4747 said:


> I think health test are mostly for dogs with lil to no purpose for working. If the dogs are put to the test in any hard working even today hunting or any truly strenuous activity then the you can see if the dog is truly sound. Real dog men were not concerned with this stuff. But times have changed so has the working aspects of the dogs. So for people who's dogs will never be pushed to the limits of it's ability then well yeah they should do something to prove the dog is worth the time and effort. for me personally I would take a dog from some one I know that says yeah this dog is good sound dog he can work hard for you, over a health tested dog that has done nothing to prove it's worth.
> concerned


I would still test personally, there have been several people here who have hard working herding dogs that have plenty of titles and live to do one thing. They didn't showing signs of HD until they were much older and nearly retired, that was after being bred many times.

Better safe than sorry


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Celestial88 said:


> I would still test personally, there have been several people here who have hard working herding dogs that have plenty of titles and live to do one thing. They didn't showing signs of HD until they were much older and nearly retired, that was after being bred many times.
> 
> Better safe than sorry


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Of course not. It was different times. Just take a look how much the standard has changed in the past ten years. They wealthier and more comfortable a country becomes they more people worry bout animal rights and breeders. Plus, with the Internet, it's up within a second and you are not only under the scrutiny of your own country but of the scrutiny of the entire 1st world.


The standard of which these hounds are being bred has not changed all that much, the number of those breeding true has.. Every year more and more people are breeding towards standard that was not originally designed for the breed, however it is the standard of the chosen registry because that is where it has gone the past 2 decades especially.. People (in a general sense) do not want a high drive functional hound rather, a registry standard dog that is supposed to be working but truthfully would be useless in ability.

Titling means little to nothing, documentation for clear of health can be important, however it isn't needed to prove health.. Look at the yard and what theyve accomplished.. Meaning, i would trust fully a breeder that comes highly recommended by those in the "circle" that does not have what is said to be "proper" if the generations come proven in respected ability.. A worker cannot work if not in health.. Not to the best of their ability anyhow..

To someone new to the breed, yes look for all that most consider high priority.. Those that are experienced, know what to look for and know what they are getting in the way of how the hound is bred, its instilled purpose, genetics, etc..

It can also be said (truthfully) that documents can be forged, just because you have health testing and papers that say the dam and sire were in excellent health, does NOT mean it to be true.. It can also be said (truthfully) that the dam and sire can be cleared however carriers of genetic mutations, health concerns, etc that will be passed along to the pups.. There is no full proof means of knowing exactly what you are buying any more.. Perhaps ever however with technology the way it is now in days, it is far easier to forge, lie, cheat etc than it was in the past..

I don't put much stock in all of this and i haven't regretted it.. You can call it luck or what have you if you wish..

It is all in who you know, what you know and where you find them.. A good hound is a good hound, i keep all of this simple because simplicity works.. The more you complicate, the more that can go wrong..


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Celestial88 said:


> I would still test personally, there have been several people here who have hard working herding dogs that have plenty of titles and live to do one thing. They didn't showing signs of HD until they were much older and nearly retired, that was after being bred many times.
> 
> Better safe than sorry


I guess this is a good point but at the end of the day the dog served it's purpose and did well and this is what a dogman would have been looking for. Not is that dog going to retire and be a great lazy retiree.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> I guess this is a good point but at the end of the day the dog served it's purpose and did well and this is what a dogman would have been looking for. Not is that dog going to retire and be a great lazy retiree.


Yeah, but if you pass those genes on you go down a dangerous path.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

As far as performance goes, nobody knows for sure what you will have until you know you have it. There have been MANY grch's and ch's that throw currs so there is no guarantee. But then again...no longer are we judging based on the []. So as the "measure" by which we judge the dogs evolve so does the breedings and selections...hopefully we are staying as close to the "oldschool" as legally possible if its for the good of the breed.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

> hopefully we are staying as close to the "oldschool" as legally possible if its for the good of the breed.


Please elaborate of what you mean with oldschool? Dog Fighting? Since you are talking about legal possibilities.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Please elaborate of what you mean with oldschool? Dog Fighting? Since you are talking about legal possibilities.


The apbt was bred to perform...not to show.

Along with proper temperament, the apbt dogmen and women of old measured these dogs by heart, drive aka gameness and the way they would know if a dog was game was by his performance in the box.

Now we have hunting, sports...etc to test these dogs and deem them "proven performers". Though im not sure how much one can consider a dog to be "game" now a days..."game bred" is more like it.


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

NoWuCmE... said:


> The apbt was bred to perform...not to show.
> 
> Along with proper temperament, the apbt dogmen and women of old measured these dogs by heart, drive aka gameness and the way they would know if a dog was game was by his performance in the box.
> 
> Now we have hunting, sports...etc to test these dogs and deem them "proven performers". Though im not sure how much one can consider a dog to be "game" now a days..."game bred" is more like it.


 I agree with you on that


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> I think health test are mostly for dogs with lil to no purpose for working. If the dogs are put to the test in any hard working even today hunting or any truly strenuous activity then the you can see if the dog is truly sound. Real dog men were not concerned with this stuff. But times have changed so has the working aspects of the dogs. So for people who's dogs will never be pushed to the limits of it's ability then well yeah they should do something to prove the dog is worth the time and effort. for me personally I would take a dog from some one I know that says yeah this dog is good sound dog he can work hard for you, over a health tested dog that has done nothing to prove it's worth.
> concerned


Exactly. I wonder what some of the old time breeders would say if you inquired about a health certificate or proof that the pup will be a good "working" dog (not even associated with the original intent of this breed...how we got off topic here is a mystery)? He probably in not so polite words would ask you to vacate his yard. What an insult it would be. This thread has turned into an apples oranges convo, with the oranges not even being APBTs. The OP asked if there are any "true" dogmen around, what I took to mean bred in the fashion of the old dogmen, and now we are discussing titles, certificates, working, etc....none of which the old dogmen even gave a rat's patooty about. There are some old time breeders left, I can attest, and there's your answer!


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> Exactly. I wonder what some of the old time breeders would say if you inquired about a health certificate or proof that the pup will be a good "working" dog (not even associated with the original intent of this breed...how we got off topic here is a mystery)? He probably in not so polite words would ask you to vacate his yard. What an insult it would be. This thread has turned into an apples oranges convo, with the oranges not even being APBTs. The OP asked if there are any "true" dogmen around, what I took to mean bred in the fashion of the old dogmen, and now we are discussing titles, certificates, working, etc....none of which the old dogmen even gave a rat's patooty about. There are some old time breeders left, I can attest, and there's your answer!


 They would look at you like your crazy and then they would laugh there a$$'s off


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Yeah, but if you pass those genes on you go down a dangerous path.


Correct, several of the dogs produced by said dogs were unworkable. And some of the sound pups produced unsound pups, etc.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Celestial88 said:


> Correct, several of the dogs produced by said dogs were unworkable. And some of the sound pups produced unsound pups, etc.


John Wooden baby!!! Representing my alma mater...Purdue University 
Go Boilers!!!!


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

Responsible ethical breeders do things such as, but not limited to the following:
- learn about the breed before doing anything else
- research Bloodlines/ pedigrees
- train and socialize their dogs
- show and or work their dogs
- learn and understand the standard and why the standard is important
- health tests and titles are a huge plus
- breed dogs that have good structure, proper temperament, health and working drive
- take good care of their dogs
-wait until dogs are physically and mentally mature enough to be bred
- are only breeding the best of the best to better the breed & are not kennel blind to what they have
- breed dogs papered by a 'real' registry
- properly social and start the training with the pups they produce
- worm the pups
- do at least the first set of vaccines
- know how to evaluate pups and know the difference bewteen, show/ working and pet quality
- screen potential owners
- mentor new owners
- take pups back if needed for the life of the dog

Those are just some things responsible breeders do....

I wanted to add many working dogs will work through having a health issue like hip or knee issues, I've seen dogs pull with slip hocks.... To me that is not a dog that should be bred no matter how great they work nor should they be worked. Some ignore things like that though it seems


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Great post, however, I still believe that criteria such as "show or work their dogs", heavy reliance on the standard, health tests and titles, papers and registries, etc. are only important to potential buyers in TODAY'S current state of the breed and meant very little to the founders. The evolution of the APBT has obviously shifted what people believe to be the role of breeder and breed...unfortunate, but it's just human nature to assume that we do things better today than those that came before us. I agree, though, that in the world we live in today, scrutinizing alot of breeders is important...unless you are involved with a true dogman, where a handshake and his word actually mean something.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

NoWuCmE... said:


> The apbt was bred to perform...not to show.
> 
> Along with proper temperament, the apbt dogmen and women of old measured these dogs by heart, drive aka gameness and the way they would know if a dog was game was by his performance in the box.
> 
> Now we have hunting, sports...etc to test these dogs and deem them "proven performers". Though im not sure how much one can consider a dog to be "game" now a days..."game bred" is more like it.


What does game mean?


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> What does game mean?


A dog that is "Game" will continue to fight to the death, basically won't stop despite being seriously injured and such. Wants more.

A Dead Game dog fought to the death, a dog that was still scratching as it died.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Celestial88 said:


> A dog that is "Game" will continue to fight to the death, basically won't stop despite being seriously injured and such. Wants more.
> 
> A Dead Game dog fought to the death, a dog that was still scratching as it died.


 ^^^ Yuup

A dog that has a "never say die" attitude, that will push through whatever adversity to complete the task...even to the point of death.

And actually the dogmen of old did title their dogs...Ch and GrCh  and gameness is what set apart the Champions from the curs.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Just pointing out that just cause a dog was not a ch. Does not mean it is a cur. But yes they did title the dogs. Even a dog that only won once was declared a 1xW meaning it had won a match.
A conditioned bulldog being put through a real keep will show a bad hip or knee. I would wonder what the precentage of old working dog produced would be to those show breed or bred with no purpose, that actually have faults that hurt their performance. One more thing that dogmen did well was cull unsuitable dog.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Register of Merit


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

NoWuCmE... said:


> ^^^ Yuup
> 
> A dog that has a "never say die" attitude, that will push through whatever adversity to complete the task...even to the point of death.
> 
> And actually the dogmen of old did title their dogs...Ch and GrCh  and gameness is what set apart the Champions from the curs.


What are these titles? What does a dog have to do to gain these title?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> What does game mean?


Gameness simply refers to a hounds inability to quit under extreme circumstances.. For the APBT, it is matching.. For a Presa it would be stopping a threat from the handler.. Injured, broken bones or even near death.. Its a mentality of constructed ability to not comprehend risk, against all odds finish the task at all cost.. Or die trying.. This CANNOT be trained into a hound however this ability, mentality can be lost just as easily as gained.. It takes EXTREMELY hard work to keep this instilled, the pay off is just as immense.. Dogmen have broken down in tears after losing a hound, for some it changes them completely.. No better example than Victor Aycart after the loss of Mayday.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Gameness simply refers to a hounds inability to quit under extreme circumstances.. For the APBT, it is matching.. For a Presa it would be stopping a threat from the handler.. Injured, broken bones or even near death.. Its a mentality of constructed ability to not comprehend risk, against all odds finish the task at all cost.. Or die trying.. This CANNOT be trained into a hound however this ability, mentality can be lost just as easily as gained.. It takes EXTREMELY hard work to keep this instilled, the pay off is just as immense.. Dogmen have broken down in tears after losing a hound, for some it changes them completely.. No better example than Victor Aycart after the loss of Mayday.


:goodpost: well articulated.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Here is a thread on Mayday. I know its a bit off topic but now that KM mentioned him figure ide post some history on him as well...being that he was from my neck of the woods 

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/32699-southern-kennels-gr-ch-mayday-rom.html

And for historical purposes and entertainment 
3xW or more = CH
5XW or more = GRCH

Sorry, no more thread hi jacking by me...back to breeders! Lol


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Gameness simply refers to a hounds inability to quit under extreme circumstances.. For the APBT, it is matching.. For a Presa it would be stopping a threat from the handler.. Injured, broken bones or even near death.. Its a mentality of constructed ability to not comprehend risk, against all odds finish the task at all cost.. Or die trying.. This CANNOT be trained into a hound however this ability, mentality can be lost just as easily as gained.. It takes EXTREMELY hard work to keep this instilled, the pay off is just as immense.. Dogmen have broken down in tears after losing a hound, for some it changes them completely.. No better example than Victor Aycart after the loss of Mayday.


So gameness is for you what I would refer to as hardness?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Drei Raeuber said:


> So gameness is for you what I would refer to as hardness?


I would think of it more as heart. Like a you know.like the Rocky movies. No matter the beating the lilguy keeps coming back for more. Even if all seem lost.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> So gameness is for you what I would refer to as hardness?


No, hardness does not equal gameness.. A "hard dog" can easily cur or go cold.. Hardness is more equal to the threshold one can take before hitting the breaking point.. Its all mentality..Gameness has no comprehension as the threshold is so immense, on the verge of death that hound will keep going.. Mentality and heart..The word "quit" has zero meaning, a hard dog will generally be broken long before this ability..


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> No, hardness does not equal gameness.. A "hard dog" can easily cur or go cold.. Hardness is more equal to the threshold one can take before hitting the breaking point.. Its all mentality..Gameness has no comprehension as the threshold is so immense, on the verge of death that hound will keep going.. Mentality and heart..The word "quit" has zero meaning, a hard dog will generally be broken long before this ability..


well said........... :clap:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Rudy4747 said:


> Just pointing out that just cause a dog was not a ch. Does not mean it is a cur. But yes they did title the dogs. Even a dog that only won once was declared a 1xW meaning it had won a match.
> A conditioned bulldog being put through a real keep will show a bad hip or knee. I would wonder what the precentage of old working dog produced would be to those show breed or bred with no purpose, that actually have faults that hurt their performance. One more thing that dogmen did well was cull unsuitable dog.


:goodpost:

Nothing left to add.. .if it can be said it has been said..


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> Nothing left to add.. .if it can be said it has been said..


 very well said :thumbsup:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

NoWuCmE... said:


> ^^^ Yuup
> 
> A dog that has a "never say die" attitude, that will push through whatever adversity to complete the task...even to the point of death.
> 
> And actually the dogmen of old did title their dogs...Ch and GrCh  and gameness is what set apart the Champions from the curs.


I should have clarified myself when I said that the old dogmen didn't title their bulldogs. I was referring to the titles sought after in today's arena. The old dogmen were after match wins, and yes titles were bestowed upon them. My point was that they didn't breed "show and no go" dogs, and knew what they were looking for without the need for approval.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> No, hardness does not equal gameness.. A "hard dog" can easily cur or go cold.. Hardness is more equal to the threshold one can take before hitting the breaking point.. Its all mentality..Gameness has no comprehension as the threshold is so immense, on the verge of death that hound will keep going.. Mentality and heart..The word "quit" has zero meaning, a hard dog will generally be broken long before this ability..


So what kind of Balance do you look for in Pit Bulls? Is there even some form of Balance? Gamness sounds very extreme to me. When does Gamness kick in? What Situations is it good for?

Dog Fights are illegal so that purpose is out the window. Is it in reference to weight pulling, that they simply don't give up, even if they may die from exhaustion?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

as I've explained in many of my posts... My dogs have replaced heelers, shepherds, rotties, gr pyrenese, and others as stock and land guardian from predators and usually coyotes kill most of the dogs.. They taunt a dog out with playful behavior to only be torn apart by jackals, coyotes and jackals are almost identical, both bite chunks of the prey as they chase it down, eating one bite at a time. Coyotes and wolves also disenbowel a dog by grabbing the taint, .. :snap:

the game gene was bred to be sound.. the most sound on the planet a matter a fact.. just cause some people breed fight crazy dogs does not mean that .. that is what game is.. game test was to see if the dog held sound.. when it was at its threshold and only the dog knows what it's threshold is. No curs allowed.

My dogs kill so many coyotes they started eating them and I guarantee at this point I haven't seen a coyote or wolf yet that doesn't run for its life when we hit the mountains, I run with 2 sometimes 3 dogs 2 leashed and one sensory. Moose inwhich are not scared of dogs or coyotes, run like they are running from a pack of wolves,,.. you better move!!!... if one got a hold the nose of a moose OMG be a long day. Seen em grab a back thigh sending a big bull in a frenzy and then a panic run cause he coudlnt kick the dog or horn him.. that was a stubborn bull that wouldnt leave the property.. Let the bulldog go.

I've also hunted bear with my dogs, a favorite by heart died fighting the bear rather than subbdoing the bear which my other bulldog did HOAGIE .. he climbed the back and grab ahold between the shoulders and up the tree he went and when he let go he was trying to run so fast to grab that bear he slowly slid down the tree, it was quite remarkable. I've been hooked ever sense and more for the TREE! I love the chase and the TREE! I havent taken a bear yet.

What does game matter anyway?

Well the game trait is AMERICAN as it gets and the dogs have been said to be far better in the 40-70s than they ever were at any period..

The mascot for the USA in WWI and WWII .. The most decorated war dog sgt stubby subdued a wild bison after WWI thats a feat no single canine but him has been recorded doing so.

American Pit Bull Terrier .. American Game Bulldog .. The all American All purpose Dog, the Nanny Dog, the dog that can out do any other dog at what it was bred to do; then whip em when he's/she's done, .. the Game Bulldog aka the APBT~

Doesnt come without breeding for game, the package of the body is intuned with the genetic game trait. The further from game the further from performance bodied and minded dogs. Its the dog that does not fear and if he does.. he hulks out and consumes the fear as he cripples the beast in front of him. I live in the woods and I recommend everyone return to the country, thats where we all come from anyway. What happens your walking your GSD and some ghetto dog runs loose and breaks your dog? You'll wish you had a good game bred dog to prevent your lil baby from getting hurt, Dogs don't live by paper laws of man... Animals have the right to be animals.. and we the people of the USA have every Constitutional and God given right to ... LIVE FREE

Whats the use of having a dog you have to look out for or worry about?

There is no use in having a dog that is of no use.....

I'll take my All American nanny dog the .45 on command any day over any other breed.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Outstanding post Stan.. These hounds should be rugged, endurance, heart and respected drives (already discussed here) to finish the tasks.. Gameness, if you will, is extreme.. Theoretically you can argue goes against animal instincts and evolution as a wide animal that possess this genetic trait will be a dead animal.. As animals fight for various reasons, for food, dominance and rank within their own packs, to take over another pack, fear and survival... However, animals also have the ability and mentality to back down and run if needed.. For again, survival.. A game hound does not cur unless runs cold.. 

Stan really summed it all up for myself included as to what i expect from a Bulldog, as for APBTs.. They are instilled for one purpose and thats matching.. Legally in many places around the world still being bred true, where they are illegal.. Few risk it all, others have found other uses that date back in the era of bull baiting.. Breed back to the "original Bulldog" as genetically, its all there and all functional.

There is a significant difference between the past and present in handling, care, etc.. Many want to believe there is no difference, they are only blinded by media "truths".. 

The Bulldog is here to stay and by virtually any account, is the real versatile all in one package.. Hell, many breeds owe their thanks to these hounds for existence.. Many crossed or selectively bred.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Question, if you have a dog like Firehazard described. Are you able to call that dog off if you want to or are they so set in their ways and in the "game" that they don't hear you anymore?


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> as I've explained in many of my posts... My dogs have replaced heelers, shepherds, rotties, gr pyrenese, and others as stock and land guardian from predators and usually coyotes kill most of the dogs.. They taunt a dog out with playful behavior to only be torn apart by jackals, coyotes and jackals are almost identical, both bite chunks of the prey as they chase it down, eating one bite at a time. Coyotes and wolves also disenbowel a dog by grabbing the taint, .. :snap:
> 
> the game gene was bred to be sound.. the most sound on the planet a matter a fact.. just cause some people breed fight crazy dogs does not mean that .. that is what game is.. game test was to see if the dog held sound.. when it was at its threshold and only the dog knows what it's threshold is. No curs allowed.
> 
> ...


Stan, too bad I cant give you anymore rep right now :clap::clap:

Love me some Hoagie!!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

well I posted a video sometime back.. its not real special its a 37lb bulldog (turk) grabbing a 37lbs sow ****.. I first put my bear dog at the bottom of the tree, then I just hollered at po .. well that dang **** eyeballed me as I was eyeballing it and it paid no attention to them two dogs, it was coming for me, I bout got bit and practically threw my cur dog po on the dang **** as I went to unclip laika from the tree anchor.. I was like alright you two keep that mfer busy.. I let turk out.. Turk at first thought it to be a cat and was like "dad really? ??" then he thought he was in trouble for attacking a cat.. so I had to pump him up to the red zone and as soon as he grabbed that **** he went into walleye killdog mode.. I said "Drop IT" and he dropped it I dispersed a sympathy kill shot, to make sure and then harvested that **** for the dogs along with other predators they wrangle. KM and others viewed the video however it is for those who understand country living and understand that a 37lb **** ain't no joke .. MOST PEOPLE THINK COYOTES KILL THEIR CATS! :hammer: ITS RACCOONS!!!!! They LOVE to kill cats some eat em some just like to kill em. let me ask you this you ever seen a coyote climb a tree? Well my bulldogs can and I see cats get up in the tree and move like squirrels to avade them so?.. then one year I noticed a **** had killed a pup, and later tried to grab another biting her ear off through the fence and giving her monkey paw like scars on her head and body, soon after I had a cat disappear... Then one day Hooch my APBT went nuts and tore into the sheetrock and out he pulled a big ol ****,, I said Good boy GOod boy .. out side out side and he cover my walls with blood and ****  all the way out the door.. Where I let him do what he does while I clean the mess up. Hooch got a knack for it and funny thing is that everytime Ol hooch tore after a **** it was chasing a cat and it was the chase that got his attention. Hooch topped several pines and bailed out when the **** did even caught one in the dang air on the fall and started shaking before he hit the ground, my country buddies were astounded. I started raccoon hunting with my dog and ended up coyote hunting and fell into a wild boar or two.. The ONLY time Hooch hasn't turned off was with an old dog of mine Turk who would turn on and off as well except with Hooch and they were buddies but once enemies .. they were hammer and anval .. .. whoops! Hooch got into my landlords bull one time, saved the old mans life.. he was sure great full and put us in charge of keeping his cows with calf, and young heffer nice and safe. Hooch would go 100% into a pack of yotes or a feral dog but if it had a collar some how he knew it was a pet and times I called him back however he was a kill dog he was my nanny dog and he was a legend in WA County in his own time. Game .. is a quality.. the fight behind it is entirely different and I think that may be what your pertaining to. .. when a game dog gets into that screamer mode .. he has a target and it will take a whole lot of cooling dog to get a screamer calmed down. This dog is well beyond threshold his/her 2nd wind and is so ready to kill its quarry. This is neccessary for a guy who doesnt want to hunt with 20 dogs. I hunt and live with one or two .. I have a hand full of brood dogs for foundation and I gotta tell ya all of them except one I can turn on and off and the gyp I dont turn on cause as I've found out somethings gonna drop (thanks Rampage!) She'll turn into a coyote and all you see is fur, the yote tried to yoddle and all he got was gargled last breath and she wasn't done, that lil dog was doin everything to follow the trail from wence the coyote came. Good nose, good sense, but HEAD strong in GO mode I think it took her a good hour to calm down had to run her 35mins and then a good cool down... Hoagie, my fresh pup Dutchess, and Turk all turn on and off like a switch.. thus the saying goes........... .45 on command.. and ultimate catch machine. It turns on; it turns off..


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Id love to see a 40lb ****.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

(me, turk, laika, **** in tree/laid at feet)








(curdog po whos 70lbs her self)


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

You and I know gameness can be tested in one place and one place only. GOOD hunters your dogs may be you know darn good and well there are better for the task. That being said there are better game dogs aswell though long forgotten... Thankfully. But really a bulldog as a coonhound come on man


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Your right thats a big ole ****. Beautiful.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

How big are your dogs? 30, 35lbs


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Tests weren't available 'back in the day' for a lot of the inheritable diseases/conditions that plaque the breed. They are now, and they should be used, imo, to be considered as breeding responsibly. Any fool can throw two dogs together and produce pups. In this day and age, you better be producing dogs with stellar temperament who are physically sound, or you're just driving another nail into the coffin of the breed.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

the game is the sound test.. you cannot test the true temperament of your dog until he/she is stressed to the max..

I picked up from some dogmen who hogtest, and Ch Nino was a hog killer, one of two that I ever seen, the other being a true OFRN in HI.. when I lived in wainae mtns.

I can tell you this that you run a dog for a set amount of miles, swim a dog, and other virtuous excercises and then you let the dog go in the [] with a mean ol razorback ready to dispatch anything.. They aren't anything to contend with with out a game bulldog I guarantee. I do breed bulldogs... in every sense of the word; need not ye forget that the ORIGINAL bulldog was thrown into the the [] and forever dubbed "pit bull"..

I guarantee you this as well a test in the mtns with me and my crew and I do walk with most DA of dogs together (give them another focus point).. Life out here is the health test, maybe your right kingsgurl for the masses, however for me.. (chuckles) I produce the most balanced dogs you'll ever see because if you (the dog) can't run for hrs and tackle your quarry and run back home well you don't make it. If a dog can run right cause it has fair hips or a loose socket (mind you almost all bulldogs are loose in the hips and entire different meaning) then it isn't going to make it. I do cull which means adults too because sometimes the behavior quirk doesnt pop out until adults. However I've curved HA, Nervous biting, endless barking, extreme DA and many other behavior faults preventing a dog from being sound; and I've done this all through WORK..









Hooch([email protected]) in 2004 or 2005 up in a Pecan tree in the park; his quarry a TX suburban bobcat, and my cheapo kodak 35mm camera (remember those). No it didnt end there.. Yes he caught his quarry.

Your right I can't [] test dogs.. I HAVE NO INCLINATIONS OF DOING SO.. I will stack my stock with proven dogs as after almost 15yrs I know exactly how to build the old world long legged bulldog. Which is the source of all game bull and terrier blood. 
Now I do have 4 APBTs (squirrel is 37lbs and Hoagie is 35lbs, Canook is 57lbs and Dutchess is 40lbs) all brood stock and we will see what kind of bulldogs they build. TUrk is NOT an APBT(he is 37lbs) however I could produce APBTs from him if I bred back in that direction; but Hes a DOG of PREY.. Sound and unbiased.

The Laika is 37lbs and the curdog po is pushing 70.


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> the game is the sound test.. you cannot test the true temperament of your dog until he/she is stressed to the max..
> 
> I picked up from some dogmen who hogtest, and Ch Nino was a hog killer, one of two that I ever seen, the other being a true OFRN in HI.. when I lived in wainae mtns.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: you hit the nail on the head


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

So having them fight Hogs is the legal way to test their gameness? 

What do you do if one of your dog gets killed in the process? Is it worth it? oke:


edit: 

Question: does the dog kill the hog or does the dog hold on until you come and kill the hog? 

I still can't seem to find anything appealing about it though. I do risk my dogs life by doing SAR. Snakes, Bears, Coyotes, Hogs... she could come across any of them anytime. She also jumped out of a second story to take the short route and alert that she has found the subject. She could have broken her neck in the process. 
However, it's a purpose. She is trained to save and not to help me to kill another species. 

A dog fighting a hog is just as brutal as fighting a dog. The risk of losing a dog in something like that is much higher than in what we do and you knowingly take the risk every time you send your dog out to go after hogs or bears. I do not know if I could live with myself if I did that on purpose. I'm not a softy, I'm not PC either but it sounds to me as if the hog thing is just another way to get around the pit fights. You can't have them fight each other, so people get creative and find something else to test the trait. 

You can't tell me that there isn't another way to test that trait. There are ways to test a dog if they have what it takes mentally and physically without having them kill or fight something.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

thats a poor argument considering that without a proper hogtest you dont know if you have dogs that can do the job or not.. 

NO it is not.. Dogs on Hogs is perfectly humane and legal in many states. Animals have the right to be animals, not humans. We eat pigs, wild pigs destroy land and animals; only a proper bred dog is worth a  at catching and dispatching such critters, and yes when hog hunting you dispatch the hog.. when hog testing both animals generally live; if the dog kills the pig, you gotta good dog test him on a higher end boar and if the dog gets killed which happens time to time; you'll morn the loss and know what kind of dog not to use next time. 

NO there is no way to test the game trait or how sound a catch dog or bulldog is without putting it in the said situation. NONE...
Are you going to test a bear dog without testing it on bears? how about a k9?.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

gogermanshepherd.com


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

you serious right now?

Its called self sustaining. If the dog kills the hog you can salvage the meat and consume it. Dogs to man have always been first and foremost tools in rural environments, and early civilization. Tools do some times break but with the proper care, respect, and knowledge you can make tools last a long time.

If your gonna troll be better at it....


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> you serious right now?
> 
> Its called self sustaining. If the dog kills the hog you can salvage the meat and consume it. Dogs to man have always been first and foremost tools in rural environments, and early civilization. Tools do some times break but with the proper care, respect, and knowledge you can make tools last a long time.
> 
> If your gonna troll be better at it....


:goodpost: I'm saying!!!

...look what the hogdog dragged in! Good to see ya back here man!


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Well, where I'm from it's a different culture and it would be illegal. So I am trying to comprehend the information that is given. Believe me, it's not easy.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Im sure the feral hog problem isnt as bad either where your from. Dogs have proven the best thing for catching hogs period. Not trap, snares ect. Hogs are alot smarter than one may think


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Well, where I'm from it's a different culture and it would be illegal. So I am trying to comprehend the information that is given. Believe me, it's not easy.


Are you not familiar with the jagdterrier? Over in europe (including Germany) they are a quite popular hound for hunting including larger game including bears..

If you are not familiar with the use of catch dogs, you must first test before using them in the field to ensure they have the heart, drive and ability to hit a hog (or whatever your hunting) hard and keep going.. You don't just take a hound out and wish them luck..






This is an example for the jagdterrier being used for baiting.. Right or wrong it does take extreme courage and ability for the dog.. A quick search online you can find plenty of information, videos, pictures, etc of Jagds for actual hunting.. This was just an example..






This is an excellent video of a boar test with a Dogo.. I'm sure you are familiar with these hounds.. Testing ability, function is just common sense unless you want a dead dog..


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Well, where I'm from it's a different culture and it would be illegal. So I am trying to comprehend the information that is given. Believe me, it's not easy.


Its as simple as it can get. Man and dog have always been hunter. Its Ludicrous that hunt be illegal in any country, state or province, and every country has its own culture for hunting. I've lived in the city my entire life, never been out hunting or anything but how is this concept hard to grasp? Its really very simple these are working dogs, always have been and with people like Stan around these dogs can stay truer to form than any one running their dog around a show ring. :stick:


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## nitty123 (Feb 5, 2012)

YELLA'S TRAILOR
OFFSPRING SIBLINGS PEDSTATS PRINTER FRIENDLY
BREEDER: R.B.K.
OWNER: WB-J & YELLA
SEX: MALE
COLOR: BROWN & WHT- -BLK NOSE
BIRTHDATE: 2004-07-12
POSTED: 2010-12-10
LAST MODIFIED: 2010-12-10
PEDIGREE HAS BEEN SEEN: 335 TIMES

4 GENERATION PEDIGREE
First Second Third Fourth
(Sire) ROYAL BULL KENNEL'S PUSHROD P.O.R. COCHRAN'S SHORTY COWBOY (ROM) MORGAN'S RUBAR EUNICE'S ROCKY
HAND'S CANDY II
MORGAN'S BABBS MORGAN'S CHARLIE
WOOD'S PIGGY III
CH COCHRAN'S BOBBY SUE COCHRAN'S SHORTY COWBOY (ROM) MORGAN'S RUBAR
MORGAN'S BABBS
COCHRAN'S SUE SUE ROM WILLARD'S VETO
COCHRAN'S BOBBY JOE
(Dam) CH ROYAL BULL KENNEL'S HONEY BEAR COCHRAN'S BUCK II 2XW GARRETT'S LITTLE RED BOY ROM CH CRENSHAW'S JEEP (4XW) ROM
MARLOWE'S TABBY GIRL POR
COCHRAN'S DIXIE DARLING ROM BRADLEYS CHATAW
MCDONALDS DIXIE
COCHRAN'S DIXIE DARLING ROM BRADLEYS CHATAW BRADLEY'S PHIDEAUX
BRADLEYS PUKING DOG
MCDONALDS DIXIE ROBERTS SAMSON
ROLANDS STAR


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## nitty123 (Feb 5, 2012)

YELLA'S black
BREEDER: YELLA
OWNER: YELLA
SEX: male
COLOR: black
POSTED: 2010-12-09
LAST MODIFIED: 2010-12-09
PEDIGREE HAS BEEN SEEN: 218 TIMES

4 GENERATION PEDIGREE
First Second Third Fourth
(Sire) COCHRAN'S CHARLIE COCHRAN'S BUCK III COCHRAN'S BUCK II 2XW GARRETT'S LITTLE RED BOY ROM
COCHRAN'S DIXIE DARLING ROM
COCHRAN'S BUCKYGIRL GARRETT'S LITTLE RED BOY ROM
COCHRANS GERTRUDE ROM
CH COCHRAN'S NOSEY RED COCHRAN'S SHORTY COWBOY (ROM) MORGAN'S RUBAR
MORGAN'S BABBS
COCHRAN'S DIXIE DARLING ROM BRADLEYS CHATAW
MCDONALDS DIXIE
(Dam) YELLA'S VENUS LOPOSAY'S TRIGGER MAN (1XW) KAY'S GRAND SLAM GR CH RC & THE LOCAL BOYS' FRITZ (5XW)
WILKES' BRINDLE GIRL
WILKES' MAMA W.C.C.'S ROCKY ROM
GARRETT'S BELLE
BLANKENSHIPS ROUX LOPOSAY'S MANDO LOPOSAYS MAN
HOPKINS' MISTY LACE
LOPOSAY'S KAY BEE WALL'S & LOPOSAYS ZEKE (1XW)
SIMM'S NAKITA


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> as I've explained in many of my posts... My dogs have replaced heelers, shepherds, rotties, gr pyrenese, and others as stock and land guardian from predators and usually coyotes kill most of the dogs.. They taunt a dog out with playful behavior to only be torn apart by jackals, coyotes and jackals are almost identical, both bite chunks of the prey as they chase it down, eating one bite at a time. Coyotes and wolves also disenbowel a dog by grabbing the taint, .. :snap:
> 
> the game gene was bred to be sound.. the most sound on the planet a matter a fact.. just cause some people breed fight crazy dogs does not mean that .. that is what game is.. game test was to see if the dog held sound.. when it was at its threshold and only the dog knows what it's threshold is. No curs allowed.
> 
> ...


LOL, us city folk don't come across too many bears, wolves, and such....but I guarantee you that our bulldogs' hearts are just as strong, the element is different is all. Unfriendlies are kept at bay ha ha!! The pups and the .45's are at the ready...the pups are easier to clean though


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

I can spell pit bull,does that count? J/k


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