# Pedigree Breeders -- Continuing Zohawn's Last Line



## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

Pedigree breeders is a topic that interests me, primarily because I don't really understand what pedigree breeders are trying to get out of pit bull stock anymore. 

Legally, it's indirectly a crime to breed for game anymore, so I guess they're breeding solely for looks. That being the case, some might argue then that Pit Bulls are no different than toy breeds in regard to the traits desired. It's all about structure and character and expression now. 

Astute labs are bred to produce pups with hunting potential. Dobermans and German Shepherds and Rottweilers are bred to guard and attack. Huskies are bred for strength and endurance in cold conditions. 

What are Pits bred for now, now that game isn't a desired trait?

I'm not criticizing the breed, I truly love Pits and I don't think that in the 100 years since pit contests have been outlawed that breeders have managed to breed all the game out of them, but it does make one wonder what the future holds.

Kennel clubs and pedigree breeders have cut the tie between the breed and its heritage by discouraging traits that would never have been of any concern in the past, not when the purpose of breeding was gameness. Now a dudley nose is a fault. No one cared in the past as long as the dog had heart. Too much white is a fault. There were many champions that were a majority white. Racy bodies are almost preferred now while a corky body means a Pit, "must be Staffy or Am Bully." 

I think that part of the reason the Pit Bull/Stafforshire/American Staffordshire/American Bully/Ghetto Bully... (and whatever other kind of bully there is out there now that I'm not aware of) debate is so convoluted and difficult to define is that most people don't understand that the structure of the Pit Bulls of the past was determined by competition. 

The structure of the Pit Bull was a matter of form following function.

The pit bull build was a product of natural selection, not selective breeding. The characteristics of a pit's body that proved strongest and most durable -- in combination with a shape that could sustain and endure over long battles -- were the traits that were passed along because the gene pool was only filled with winners. Curs, regardless of their shape, were culled or given away to families as pets.

Today, people determine the "ideal proportions of the physical traits of Pit Bulls," not competition. If it is competition determining the ideal proportions, it's another kind such as weight pull or sprinting. 

Most of the time however, it's just whatever body type looks cool. A huge portion of today's breeding stock -- those Pit Bulls that are highly sought after, whose owners charge exorbitant stud fees -- wouldn't even be considered for breeding stock in the past. 

Am Bullies for example, with their English Bulldog bodies, would disappear in a single generation if competition was the requisite for breeding stock because their bodies would fail them even if they were unusually game. 

The point is, no one would have judged your Pit Bull by it's physical qualities in the past -- when Pit Bulls were Pit Bulls -- which makes it difficult to understand why people hammer on one another about whose dog is a Pit and whose isn't.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

its not illegal to breed for game... its illegal to have game dogs just for fighting and gambling .. the combined racket... 

If the pedigree is true to the dog.. you can tell a lot.. That is the DNA map so to speak. dogs, horses, people, we all have 256 ancestors in 7 gen.. The variable DNA traits that can come from that are as vast as the pedigree or as tight as the pedigree. 

You don't breed for papers .. you breed for the dog.. HOWEVER an honest dog that is well papered should be without saying an excellent working dog and game as hell. Without game you dont' have an APBT or a bulldog you have cur which are in the hound group  FUNCTION is everything as well as the condition of the mind. 


Look at colby dogs 100 yrs ago, look at them today...... Look at Patrick dogs or Hammond dogs or Boudreaux dogs.. You'll see they all have a set of traits locked into their family of dogs. 


A pedigree is only as honest as the man or woman holding it....


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> its not illegal to breed for game... its illegal to have game dogs just for fighting and gambling .. the combined racket...
> 
> If the pedigree is true to the dog.. you can tell a lot.. That is the DNA map so to speak. dogs, horses, people, we all have 256 ancestors in 7 gen.. The variable DNA traits that can come from that are as vast as the pedigree or as tight as the pedigree.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: i was about to say... when did it become illegal??


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

It is illegal to test for game but you're right about indirectly illegal to breed for it...in this country!
And it's only been that way since '76 not 100 years. Even then they were referred to as "dogs" not "pitbulls" like they are today. It really does make you wonder what the future holds


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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

Matching isn't illegal everywhere though. And some people in the US would say that hunting (hog, bear, etc.) would be testing the game of the dogs. And that's not illegal here.

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## dday (Oct 5, 2010)

It is illegal in the US to test for gameness. So therefore legally speaking you can not truly breed for it either. And there is only ONE way to test for true gameness []. You can only test for drive and maybe bravery with the things listed above. But dont kid yourself, the APBT is being bred true in many places, (so I've been told).


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Lol APBT are not now nor were they ever bred for looks. If they're breeding for looks then they're not breeding APBTs  They have always been and still are a working breed.


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

*don't know, but...*

I have a 45 pound dog that can whip any G.S. I know. Have a bigger dog that I'd pit against any modern day Akita I've seen...

But, I'm not willing to go so far as to say that I'd pit one of my house pets against a Grand Champion from the 1930's.

Come on now, even my raw fed, exercised daily, papered dogs leave something to be desired.

I've spent some money, but I wasn't naive enough to think I was paying for game.

If they can whip the neighbor's dog that's 50 pounds heavier, I'll yell, "I have a Pit Bull!"

But it's probably far from true.

All that aside, what a pain in the ass it is to walk my modern day pit. What a crazy pair of fuckers they are... maybe they're a touch game... unless they run into something real.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Plenty of APBT people still breed dogs that are competing in sports and collecting plenty of titles rather than just focusing on looks. 


Aaaand the Pit Bull's body isn't a product of natural selection. That would imply human's took no part in it, it doesn't matter what makes the dogs worthy of breeding, the human is still the one making/allowing the pairings. And not all curs were culled (as not were all manbiters) as breeding's more complex then that. Some would breed a cur that would near perfect structure, temperament, to dog of not so great structure but one of game. (one that never quit no matter what abuse they took from whatever they were fighting)


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

*Well*

That might be a fair comment. It was humans selecting which dogs did and didn't breed.

Still, though I've not thought it out to this extent, it was a dog's game -- heart -- that determined whether or not the bloodline continued.

Structure wasn't a primary attribute people thought about, game was. Breeders bred for heart.

Today, people breed pits for structure.

Not sure I'm arguing with you as much as I'm trying to reiterate my point.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

hotchkiss what line of dogs you got? do you have their online ped or their parents registered name? Plenty of real dogs proven themselves outside the country come on now. 
phillipines, japan, indonesia, mongolia, russia, czech, turkey, middle east, etc.. they have televised events cajun rules  ...


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

*not sure what you're asking*

I don't live in the States. Where I live, about 25% of the dog owning population owns pits.

Like I said earlier, pits shouldn't be a product of human selection bred for structure. They weren't historically. Pits were bred for game.

White bodies and blue eyes, dappled noses, corkey bodies, hare feet... none of those qualities were considered when someone evaluated a pit, until recently In the past, and in some places, pits were -- and are -- judged on heart.

The irony being that my pits are pets. They've never been chained, they've been caught sleeping on our bed, they spend half their time on their backs begging to be petted. No idea if they have any heart.

But, more than anyone else knows about their "Colby dog," I know where they're from, I know their lines.

And let me tell you, I know no more about their potential than anyone else knows about the potential of their dogs.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Most of what you think you can teach has already been said. If it can be said; it has been said; bold statements, nothing said yet I and most of we don't know or couldn't show you direction.. still never answered my questions.. There are several mexican, czech, indonesian, etc.. dogs that are not in the states and still have a pedigree that can be displayed.

You know colby dogs, great.. gives you some basis. What do you feed?

my dog is belly mate and hammonds pick of this litter :ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [403065] :: DONALD'S KRY BABBI

My retired stud dog is :ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [129856] :: J.B.'S BOZZ HOG

both dogs at different times and different years tamed a wild pissed off moose a feit I've yet to see any other dog do besides a KBD/Laika and not get killed. both into bear and multiple bouts with coyotes.. the later two not so tough a good cur could do it but the moose, LOL only a good bulldog is going to grab it and wear it down by the nose.

Their diet is: beef, lamb, fish,elk, bear, coyote along with greens, rice, potatoes, grains..

I know what your hinting at and I too keep and breed for old world bulldogs..


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

kg420 said:


> Lol APBT are not now nor were they ever bred for looks. If they're breeding for looks then they're not breeding APBTs  They have always been and still are a working breed.


Working...fighting...everyone has their own interpretation. I prefer fighting breed. American Working Bull Terrier? Doesn't sound right to me LOL. The [] = Pit = fighting. But I suppose they could be considered both these days. Not arguing with you, just throwing out my two cents


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Go with Heinzl.. All purpose all American breed  because that is what the APBT is supposed to be.. that ironically also why its the best [] dog around the world. The original bulldog was throwin into the [] and forever dubbed "pit bull".. Just like the best of our American boxers our fighting dogs are working class 

The APBT should be in the working class.. They also should adhere to ADBA standards..


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Hotchkis the mistake you make is the same as many I see make this same argument. That is to assume you know anything about what people do and don't do with the dog they keep. Pedigree breed only allow some on the benefit of having an idea of what to expect form a tie. No matter what you breed for if you have experience with a serrate family of dogs and keep then keeping the ped in ind will allow you to guess a lil better on what you might get. Kind give you list of traits to expect. you know red boy dogs are game or hamonds dogs are long bodied. This is why knowing the line and keeping it close is good for a program. Hope this makes sence.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Go with Heinzl.. All purpose all American breed  because that is what the APBT is supposed to be.. that ironically also why its the best [] dog around the world. The original bulldog was throwin into the [] and forever dubbed "pit bull".. Just like the best of our American boxers our fighting dogs are working class
> 
> The APBT should be in the working class.. They also should adhere to ADBA standards..


So would you say that the APBT was/is a better worker (depending on what consitutes work) than fighter? I understand the working class description because of their "work" related history and blue collar background, but labeling them a working breed seems entirely different IMO. It lumps them into a category shared by many breeds and overshadows what they were/are the best at...second to none. Do you view the APBT as a working breed that excells(ed) in fighting, or a fighting breed that excells at working? Could they be placed into both categories? Too many questions LOL? Just humor me Stan


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I say working first and foremost because the foundation breeds used were workers more than fighters. I understand why the breed was created but since its always been a breed utilized for working I think worker more than fighter.

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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

Kwhitaker0604,

I would agree that game breeds used to hunt hogs and bear display a tremendous amount of heart. There is really nothing closer to pitting two dogs against one another than hunting big game with them. 

The only argument that I'd make is that while the best hunting dogs are bulldogs, from what I understand they are almost completely non-dog aggressive and bred to be so with good reason: you want the dog to get ahold of the hog, not one of the hounds that cornered it.

So, that kind of begs the question, are these bulldogs pit bulls in the traditional sense of the word?

Fire,

Shocking that your dog killed a moose. That's the biggest animal on two continents. Most grizzly bears don't have the nerve to tackle a healthy bull moose. Impressive.

Posted their diet in another thread, but more or less it's chicken, beef, pork, fish, mutton, eggs, milk, brown rice, fruits and vegetables and just about anything gluten-free that comes off the table. 

Rudy,

I did make the assumption that most breeders don't know if their dogs are game or not based on the premise that most people probably aren't rolling their dogs to find out. If I'm wrong and a majority of breeders are testing their dogs -- which I highly doubt -- then my entire argument is flawed.

However, if I'm right and breeders are breeding untested dogs and selecting said dogs solely based upon physical traits, then my argument stands. Like I said, the notion of breeding for physical characteristics like structure -- you mentioned that Hammond dogs are racy -- is only slightly more respectable than breeding for color. 

I guess to get back to my point I'd have to ask, how can a breeder say his Red Dog line of pups is game without having done something illegal or imported them? 

Others,

Regarding the game breed vs working breed discussion: we all know what they are, -- or at least were -- but "working breed" seems like the next logical category. They've probably done more work than most working breeds, but I'm with St. Francis, somehow it just doesn't seem to fit.

Anyone want to make the argument that a new category of breed should be introduced, the "nanny breed?" (Don't take that comment too seriously, just a joke.)


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

They downed a moose.. a slobberknocked 3000lb pile of moose  Didn't kill just wore plumb out. The one Hammonds Tanner Taf aka Duchesse got ahold of didn't get up until noon the next day according to the neighbor who's land she was on. I know.. Thats my point... there are still real bulldogs and they are workers IMO the fight is the work. For a rancher a pissed off bull would need such a dog; or to protect all calves and kill some coyotes or feral dogs, all in which I've done with my dogs or sold dogs to people who have done later.. Replacing Heelers, BCs, Rotties, Great Pyrenees and others.

St.Francis.. I keep it simple and follow the work and opinions of the dogs left to us by Colby, Heinzl, So on.. 
To me fighting is working.. you'll never work as hard and fast in your life as you will the 3 minutes in that [] IMO thats why the best boxers are working class..

Also, I've had a bulldog that could be a better stock dog than any heeler or Border Collie, it just took someone to raise em for that. so on and so on.. thus the saying... by Colby later Armitage.. 
"the bulldog/apbt/pitbull can whip any dog at what it was bred to do, then whip em when its done" if the dog cannot do this IMO it is not a genuine APBT. by the standards of the men who had the best stock in the world.. The two purest strains of APBT OFRN and COLBY both go back to dog that could do it all ..

As we get further along in a world full of BS I find it essential to follow the old men who had no time for anything other than simple truth.

I need one COMPLETE dog and believe that most of us also need the same type dog... The true "Nanny dog" is the [] bred bull and terrier breed of dogs of the 20s-50s. The All purpose All American dog .. Howard Heinzl until any of us reach his knowledge and clout I'd say his sayings and opinion on the dog out weigh mine or anyone elses. JMO


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

if they were working class better truths of the breed would be recognized because those would be the traits to honor and breed for with in a show just like the UKC held until well they went foo-foo.. UKC is supposed to be strictly working dogs. The APBT was their Golden child they dropped on its face with the legislature of 1976. Everyone knew the APBT was the ultimate working dog ... piss on politics, I wanna see the dog in working class. Because I've never seen a harder working dog useful in all venues of the canine world.


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

It's going to be tough to convince me that -- as a whole -- the breed isn't headed in the wrong direction. The following breeders are harvesting couch potatos. Their dogs have the bodies of English Bulldogs. The dogs look exhausted from sitting.

The following are photos of traditional pits - Colby's American Pit Bull Terriers

Below are the first results when you type "pit bull breeders" into google.

.: IRON MAN PITS :.pitbull males, pit bulls, pitbulls, blue pitbulls, bully pitbulls, blue pit bull puppies,american pitbull terrier, working pit bulls, pit bulls on springpole, huge blue pit bulls, blue bully pits, pits, blue pits, blue pitbull pupp

Scroll down on this page and take a look at the piece of pork fat being slated as an "extreme pit bull," then go back and look at the Colby photos again. 
http://www.xtremebullypitbulls.com/

Scroll down and look at QUAKE JR. That's a pit? Jesus. 
http://www.ultimatebluepitbulls.com/studs.html


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> Working...fighting...everyone has their own interpretation. I prefer fighting breed. American Working Bull Terrier? Doesn't sound right to me LOL. The [] = Pit = fighting. But I suppose they could be considered both these days. Not arguing with you, just throwing out my two cents


I know exactly what your saying  I look at it like this, before they were [] dogs the foundation was strong working dogs. Then they were pitted against each other. In my eyes that was not just a sport, those dogs really worked their asses off in the []. Not only were they hard and fast in the [] but they were great utility dogs as well. Like Stan said before they work their asses off after boar or bear, even coyotes  All of it is work in my eyes  
I just don't really get the point of this thread I guess lol. AmStaffs, and AmBullies are bred for looks and structure not the APBT. APBTs are still being bred for working abilities wether it's hunting, agility, PP, whatever but these dogs are not a breed bred for form over function.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

hotchkiss said:


> It's going to be tough to convince me that -- as a whole -- the breed isn't headed in the wrong direction. The following breeders are harvesting couch potatos. Their dogs have the bodies of English Bulldogs. The dogs look exhausted from sitting.
> 
> The following are photos of traditional pits - Colby's American Pit Bull Terriers
> 
> ...


Those are NOT APBTs those are American Bullies, two completely different breeds.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

hotchkiss said:


> It's going to be tough to convince me that -- as a whole -- the breed isn't headed in the wrong direction. The following breeders are harvesting couch potatos. Their dogs have the bodies of English Bulldogs. *The dogs look exhausted from sitting.*


this! i made and posted this:









and made a comment that the obese AmBully was tired from just standing there! i got a comment that said "how do u know he didnt just get done running" LOL i laughed my ass off, i think that dog would avoid running at all costs. total ! i mean there are nice bullies and i think starting their own breed was a good step, now we just need people to acknowledge them for what they are, American Bully and not APBT at all. but the best way to do that would be to get them in AKC or UKC, which i dont see happening....

although on a side note, i was watching the thanksgiving AKC show on tv last night and they had a new breed that sounds like a similar situation. the new Russel Terrier is now a different breed from the Parsons Terrier.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

i made that post because there was people in that thread with no business telling people anything about dogs.

all the [] is, to these dogs, is breeding rights. only those tried and true will continue to produce perfection. this is how it is with all animals on this planet, people included.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Sounds to me like you got confused by all the bully breeders who keep insisting they own "pitbulls" Pitbull is not a breed. It's a stupid word used by the media to describe many many breeds. So yes American Bullies, APBTs, and AmStaffs are all classified as "pitbulls" but that doesn't make them all the same breed because they're not. The dogs your looking at and talking about are American Bullies. While yes they are often described as "pitbulls" they are a completely separate breed from the American Pit Bull Terrier.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I believe working ability and structure are two that should go hand in hand when trying to breed the ultimate dog. As you can have a dog with all the game in the world, and it could be inside a cruddy body that just can't. But put that spirit in a near perfectly proportioned body and you'd bet that's one handy dog.

Just because I'd like to see a nicely structured APBT after seeing some painful physiques <3


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Try googling american pit bull terrier the thing you find change. The fact that you know little bout people with fairly well bred dogs shiws that you have no clue where to even start looking for people with traditional working stock no one rolling dogs is telling people they are that would be crazy. Any good dog will be were you find it and what you make of it. Ou may be right most people are not testing for game in the box but are doing the best to keep the breed a working breed with out work the apbt will not exist..

If I may ask what lines are your dogs since you seem to know " what they are capable of" I would like to know how you can ask this question and still feel your dogs are so capable? Maybe the pedigre?.?. Just wondering!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I've asked twice... good luck.. :roll:


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Easier to "know" what every one is up to when you keep every one from any idea of what you have...


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Celestial88 said:


> I believe working ability and structure are two that should go hand in hand when trying to breed the ultimate dog. As you can have a dog with all the game in the world, and it could be inside a cruddy body that just can't. But put that spirit in a near perfectly proportioned body and you'd bet that's one handy dog.
> 
> Just because I'd like to see a nicely structured APBT after seeing some painful physiques <3


I agree one hundred percent. have often said theoretically if you could have two dog equally match in weight mouth and gameness. One with conformational flaws and one with a good structure. the one that had fewer flaws would most likely win.

Funny that you would use a sorrels dog he even before sat on the ADBA committee to write the conformation guide lines always had ideals of what the perfect box dogs physical attributes should be.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> I've asked twice... good luck.. :roll:


Bwahaha I noticed he conviently avoided answering u.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

How does one measure the "heart" of a bulldog...that is where the passion lies and quite frankly puts confirmation in its place.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Every one loves an under dog! And it makes for great stories but in the real world more often then not the superior physical being is the fittest in the game of survival...


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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

hotchkiss said:


> Kwhitaker0604,
> 
> I would agree that game breeds used to hunt hogs and bear display a tremendous amount of heart. There is really nothing closer to pitting two dogs against one another than hunting big game with them.
> 
> ...


Would just like to add that 'game' does not mean the same as DA. I've seen videos of champion pit dogs that were perfectly fine with other dogs outside of the pit.

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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Kwhitaker0604 said:


> Would just like to add that 'game' does not mean the same as DA. I've seen videos of champion pit dogs that were perfectly fine with other dogs outside of the pit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


the best and truest to the word "Game" were just that too! Great point!


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

My dogs are Boudreaux. Guess I didn't know what kind of people I was speaking to. Didn't know it was necessary to clarify thatm "there is a difference between game and DA." Christ. Really? Yea, one's a sporting term, the other is a yuppi colloquialism meaning... Jesus, this really needs to be explained?

Still not sure why the guy that claims his pit bull brought down a moose -- for God's sake -- is still taken seriously. There are fish stories and then there are MOOSE stories. Your dog took down an animal 100 times it's size? A house cat has a better chance of bringing down a St. Bernard. What a load of shit! 

Know the definition of a pathological liar? Someone that doesn't have the ability understand how ridiculous their lies are. It's like someone that says, I caught a whale with a 5 pound test line. It's someone that says, "I can fly." It's like someone that says, "my dog brought down a moose."


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

You underestimating the will and power of a bulldog says loads about your character. APBT's were derived from Bull baiting dogs before taken into the pit. These little dogs were bred to be the ultimate working, sporting, and companion dog. I've seen a 45 lb. "game bred" female take down a 2000 lb. bull not kill it just subdue it to keep the handler safe. These dogs in there true form are not be underestimated.


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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

Well you said the only argument that you'd make is that the bulldogs used to hunt are bred to be non dog aggressive. If you had read the part of your post that I had quoted, you'd see that. So I just pointed out that they don't have to be DA to be game. 
You don't have to get all defensive. No one here is attacking you. 
I do have to agree with MSK though, you're seriously underestimating the determination and will of these dogs.

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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm trying to look for the thread but it had a pattendale terrier (much smaller that the average APBT) that took down a mountain lion. 

There is also an animal planet special about a Dogo that took out a puma. How you will question a dog taking out a slow ass moose is ignorant.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

hotchkiss said:


> My dogs are Bordeaux. Guess I didn't know what kind of people I was speaking to. Didn't know it was necessary to clarify that.
> 
> I asked the question because you stated that pedigree breeding is some how not being bred true to form. So I had to know what dogs you are dealing with. If they are of only Bordeaux blood then some one in witch you got the dog from was breeding pedigree. You also state you know what your dogs are capable of. So then I asked the question how? How do you know what they are capable of, seems to me like you might know this because of were they came from? Then if that is the case my point is made pedigree breeding is out their for a reason not matter what you breed for you will find constancy and know better what to expect if you know the family in which your dog comes. Does that make sense? I was not trying to call you and your dogs out just trying to understand where you are coming from. Seems to me like you only have experience with the kennels you find online and lil with doggers of both old days and people trying to move forward with our breed. This is just what I take from your posts I may be wrong, if so please enlighten me


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

hotchkiss said:


> My dogs are Boudreaux. Guess I didn't know what kind of people I was speaking to. Didn't know it was necessary to clarify thatm "there is a difference between game and DA." Christ. Really? Yea, one's a sporting term, the other is a yuppi colloquialism meaning... Jesus, this really needs to be explained?
> 
> Still not sure why the guy that claims his pit bull brought down a moose -- for God's sake -- is still taken seriously. There are fish stories and then there are MOOSE stories. Your dog took down an animal 100 times it's size? A house cat has a better chance of bringing down a St. Bernard. What a load of shit!
> 
> Know the definition of a pathological liar? Someone that doesn't have the ability understand how ridiculous their lies are. It's like someone that says, I caught a whale with a 5 pound test line. It's someone that says, "I can fly." It's like someone that says, "my dog brought down a moose."


WOW! someone doesn't like to be asked what she is fed? NO one talked to you this way, we just highlighted the fact avoided the question.. People who always want proof and lack the ability to show proof are well.. The kind of folks that build drama.. OH wow look ^^^^^ drama..

You ask alot of questions and are full of a lot of hot air for someone who can't through a ped of her dogs up. Boudreaux is good blood. The bulldog I started treeing bear with is half halls.. show what you feed before your so interested in everyone else. Why am I taken seriously? I dunno because I gotta be crazy :roll: LOL because I wen't out and did it. I had a neighbor tell me about the incident with duchesse and if you can't believe that then you don't know bulldogs. My first bulldog rescued my landlord from his own brhama/limousine bull.. he also bagged a couple of pigs and countless coyotes, got me wanting to hunt predators.. WELL UP HERE we get full grown Bull moose, the same size as a bull only built different, in your yard when you live in town let alone out in country or up in the mountains like the 10 acres where I lived. I let my dogs out to run off the moose.. I have kids and don't need a bull moose or test cow trying to own our lil patch of woods. 
The Karelian can chase moose off they will flat run from her and shes 37lbs.. after they've been introduced and she gets a bite or two in and barks insainly in their face. I got her just for the moose really because they are natural hunters you don't teach em shit. I wasn't planning on duchesse gettin into a moose and thought that she got hit by a car at first but she had giant hoove burn like road rash and a sprained leg... two days later .. the neighbor stopped me and told me about the ruckus on his land.. His story her injuries made sense because the cur dog come home hours before Duchesse and had similar road rash type hoove burns.. Take from it what you will and leave the rest.. I don't live in a city I don't really like cities,they're okay, I prefer the beautiful great natural world.. I live in Idaho so I can constitutionally live as free as possible..

from my 37lb dog turk.. one coyote is 55lbs the other about 37lbs, two in 1








we've had incidents of coyotes attacking fullgrown labradors in a pack with the owner right there and everything.. IN the middle of SPOKANE just over the state line, and here local have their heelers and rottweillers, etc killed by a moose that came in there yard.. LOL same kinda of people don't know what the use is in having one of my kinda bulldogs..

Somewhere on this site I've posted the cell phone pic I had I believe when I had a bull moose on our lease the last time.. I need to name my files :hammer: however I can assure you what my dogs do are what any ones dogs in the wild of north idaho have died from, protecting their home. Ironcially I now see those guys back in the woods deeper than me off the grid style also with bulldogs now  All they had to do was see what mine could do and that I only use one or two dogs. Now they share with me MOOSE stories of their own  and gloat.. sure am glad I gotta bulldog


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

This thread kinda went downhill quickly.....


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

it was already down hill.. jugglin'


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

:cheers:


Firehazard said:


> WOW! someone doesn't like to be asked what she is fed? NO one talked to you this way, we just highlighted the fact avoided the question.. People who always want proof and lack the ability to show proof are well.. The kind of folks that build drama.. OH wow look ^^^^^ drama..
> 
> You ask alot of questions and are full of a lot of hot air for someone who can't through a ped of her dogs up. Boudreaux is good blood. The bulldog I started treeing bear with is half halls.. show what you feed before your so interested in everyone else. Why am I taken seriously? I dunno because I gotta be crazy :roll: LOL because I wen't out and did it. I had a neighbor tell me about the incident with duchesse and if you can't believe that then you don't know bulldogs. My first bulldog rescued my landlord from his own brhama/limousine bull.. he also bagged a couple of pigs and countless coyotes, got me wanting to hunt predators.. WELL UP HERE we get full grown Bull moose, the same size as a bull only built different, in your yard when you live in town let alone out in country or up in the mountains like the 10 acres where I lived. I let my dogs out to run off the moose.. I have kids and don't need a bull moose or test cow trying to own our lil patch of woods.
> The Karelian can chase moose off they will flat run from her and shes 37lbs.. after they've been introduced and she gets a bite or two in and barks insainly in their face. I got her just for the moose really because they are natural hunters you don't teach em shit. I wasn't planning on duchesse gettin into a moose and thought that she got hit by a car at first but she had giant hoove burn like road rash and a sprained leg... two days later .. the neighbor stopped me and told me about the ruckus on his land.. His story her injuries made sense because the cur dog come home hours before Duchesse and had similar road rash type hoove burns.. Take from it what you will and leave the rest.. I don't live in a city I don't really like cities,they're okay, I prefer the beautiful great natural world.. I live in Idaho so I can constitutionally live as free as possible..
> ...


I gotta spread the love, still, but you already know how I feel about your posts.:cheers: again.


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

So now we're comparing taking down a "puma" (without a doubt I'm talking to city slickers) to taking down a moose. A mountain lion weighs 100 pounds or less. A moose weighs 1/2 a ton, sometimes 2000 pounds. Dear lord. This is getting crazier and crazier. Can your pit take down a buffalo? How about an elk? can it take down a black or grizzly bear? Can your dog take down a horse? All of those animals are smaller than a moose and only a grizzly is more aggressive. 

Pathological liar speaking to ignorant people. Best of luck telling that story anywhere else in the world. WOW. And people are buying what you're saying!


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Like i said before it is easy to judge and make assumptions when you don't provide any information as to why you feel superior to the other members. bulldogs were used for bating bull why would they be able to wear down a moose. Once again I have asked you about your dogs, so if you are going to further this conversations you need to quite insulting this forum and it's member, thanks...


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Hahahahha... Batima and the horse .. Sgt Stubby and the Buffalo.. both instances are recorded in books by authorities and ambassadors of the breed APBT.. Hammonds, Stratton.. 

No elk hunting with dogs is illegal and they aren't like moose they don't come in and take over your yard chasing everything off and killing dogs.. Black bear, Grizzly's are protected in Idaho.. 

Moutain lions eat dogs up around here so the hounds that hunt cat are HOT and well they have more kennel fights than most bulldog owners.


Well this is the kinda work I do with my dogs and as a hobby; survival~ I got bored with the city slicker lifestyle long ago.. You act like your talkin to tender feet: however I can tell from your posts you know not what you speak.. Live in Idaho the survival lifestyle its as close to Alaska as your gonna get without living in Alaska. Yes moose kill most dogs, thats point of it... Not the ones I pick out.


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

And I answered you and I didn't include two other lines a decent dogman would probably know which my dogs carry, but I certainly know where this conversation is going, "who is the breeder?" None of your business. "Where do you live?" None of your business. "What do you do with your dogs?" Again, none of your business.

Just like papers do not prove a dog, neither does me not telling you personal nor professional information disprove mine. Argue theories of knowledge if you want to keep this intersting. 

Come on now. I'm more than happy to argue theory if you want to discuss pit bulls, but don't be ridiculous. Really want to have a conversation you can learn something about? Lets talk about post-911 RICO laws.


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

Elk eat more cattle feed than any other animal... and what are you talking about legal for now? It's not legal to hunt moose with dogs. 

Ahhh, you got tired of living in the city a long time ago? Evidently not long enough to leave your urban legends behind. 

You're just digging this hole deeper. Write it again. Write, "my dog took down a moose." PLLLLLEEEEEEAAAASSSSEEEEEE.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

His dog can take down a moose. There I said it.  you should get to know people here before making all these assumptions...There is always something to be learned.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I really think this thread needs more cowbell.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

hotchkiss said:


> And I answered you and I didn't include two other lines a decent dogman would probably know which my dogs carry, but I certainly know where this conversation is going, "who is the breeder?" None of your business. "Where do you live?" None of your business. "What do you do with your dogs?" Again, none of your business.
> 
> Just like papers do not prove a dog, neither does me not telling you personal nor professional information disprove mine. Argue theories of knowledge if you want to keep this intersting.
> 
> Come on now. I'm more than happy to argue theory if you want to discuss pit bulls, but don't be ridiculous. Really want to have a conversation you can learn something about? Lets talk about post-911 RICO laws.


Their you go assuming again. Many of the things you have stated show the little you know about bulldogs. I could care less who bred your dogs or what you do. Really just trying to gain some insight as to why you feel your dogs are so capable and yet you know nothing about what a true bulldog is capable of. And by the way any novice of the breed knows the name Bordeaux...

Lines is what I was interested in see seems to me like you have pedigree bred dogs and here arguing the practice that built your dogs. Like I said even the best dog men had lines in which they liked to use. To build their ideal dog.


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

I didn't grow up in the city, have no idea what boredom is and don't believe that if a pack of wolves -- animals that hunt in pack of 5 to 10 and do so in order to survive, having no other option -- can't bring down a moose without extraordinary circumstances (the moose is diseased), risks and consequences, I find it more likely a carp ate a fisherman than some pit bull owned by a guy that couldn't handle the desk grind took down the largest animal in North, South and Central America. That's just silly.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Why don't you actually go do some research on this breed. Your insanely ignorant posts show that you have no real knowledge or understanding of the breed what so ever. Do you know what a Bull and Terrier is and how and why it got its name? Wolves were not bred the way these dogs are and are not capable of the things real bulldogs can do. They are just not designed for battle the way a bulldog is, wether they're wild or not. Wolves are not capable of many things that some domestic breeds can do. It's silly to think that if a wolf can't do it then no dog can.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I started in wolf rescue.. Ironically.. ... 

I don't hunt moose with dogs.. never said that.. I said I let my dogs out to chase the moose off our land and bulldogs handle it differently than the Karleian. I also said that when Im out on my runs in the mtns with my dogs they get into moose, it happens to a fair amount of dogs up here. If your going to read anything inbetween the lines of what I right .. well don't.. read the simple words I leave in crayon. 

Its perfectly legal to have a sentry dog that protects your land.. I just realized no other dog perfects this better than that APBT.

By the way... anytime you demand to see what others think and what they got and you say you don't have anything to prove.. what your really saying is "Please close my thread I have nothing intelligent to say and only am showing my own ignorance which is simply a lack of knowledge." or simply your saying " Im waisting your time and have nothing intelligent to say." .. present yourself before you demand so much of others.. 

If it can be said it has been said... you ain't got nothing new... 

To argue theory?? its theory ... Hahahaha what the use in arguing.. ... NOW a debate .. thats different however that dialogue which you seem to not understand either. 

yup.. Im a tender foot you nailed me.. :rofl:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> I really think this thread needs more cowbell.


I have a bumper sticker on my yella forest truck that says that.. LOL right next to the one that says.. If guns people then pencils mispell words.. :rofl:


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

By the way... anytime you demand to see what others think and what they got and you say you don't have anything to prove.. what your really saying is "Please close my thread I have nothing intelligent to say and only am showing my own ignorance which is simply a lack of knowledge." or simply your saying " Im waisting your time and have nothing intelligent to say." .. present yourself before you demand so much of others.. 

If it can be said it has been said... you ain't got nothing new... 

Well said...


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I can't voucher to the truth of any stories. (one of those gotta see it type, I know such a pain  )

But historically dogs of different breeds, including APBTs have been able to exhaust and hold bulls, which are often over 2,000lbs depending on the breed. (3,840 lbs being the world record) I don't find it to be totally unbelievable, especially if the animal weighs less and can hang on to the animal even if flung with some ease. The animal would simply tire itself out.


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

Your dodging every point I make. Stand by something, anything you say. First, you said your bulldog took down a moose. I begged you to repeat it, to stand by your claim that your bulldog took down what any knowledgeable hunter or outdoorsman considers the most dangerous animal in North America, an animal that outweighs your dog by at least 1,000 pounds. You didn't repeat it. 

Instead, you went off on another tangent, one that may not be as far-fetched, but is equally absurd. 

You said that moose ravage pasture and elk don't. Have you ever seen a herd of moose in someone's hay field? Of course not. Moose don't gather up. Why? For the same reason your dog didn't kill one. They don't need strength in large numbers. If you spend a winter in a mountain valley you'll see hundreds of elk come down from the hills and get into people's hay. 

Your information couldn't be more backwards, a fact your refusing to stand by what your said attests to. 

Now you're saying you "started in wolf rescue." Started when, when you jumped off the Greyhound with your slacks and colored contacts? Enough with your resume. Want credibility? Stop making appeals to authority (if you know so much about debate, you surely know that it's completely invalid logic -- especially when you're siting yourself as the source of authority).

And since we're splitting hairs over the semantics of words, there is no "irony" in you claiming to be an expert on wolves; it's par for the course. You claim to be an expert on pretty much everything you've dipped your hand in since you moved out of the city.

I've seen a million guys like you and they're damn near all the same. Big on talk, not worth their water in action. They move to the mountains, buy a "yella truck" and a swayback horse that they ride with their gator skin boots and aussie cut hats and talk too loud and introduce themselves to anyone they can corner insisting, "everyone calls me 'Big Country' round these here parts,'" thinking it makes them sound local and not foolish. 

Really Big Country? How many horses have you broke? What's your family's brand? How many miles of fence have you built? How long has the oldest rifle you own been in your family? How many generations back has your family been in the area? 

Let me guess: zero, don't have one, zero, don't have one, zero... you're the definition of greenhorn.

You want to be the genuine article city boy? You're going to have to tone down the tall tales and stop repeating everything you hear at the breakfast joint. Regurgitating hyperbole to impress is the first sign of a sucker. 

Pits have been in my family for 5 generations. That's my appeal to authority and I'm telling you, you're story is a moose tale.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

hotchkiss said:


> Your dodging every point I make. Stand by something, anything you say. First, you said your bulldog took down a moose. I begged you to repeat it, to stand by your claim that your bulldog took down what any knowledgeable hunter or outdoorsman considers the most dangerous animal in North America, an animal that outweighs your dog by at least 1,000 pounds. You didn't repeat it.
> 
> Instead, you went off on another tangent, one that may not be as far-fetched, but is equally absurd.
> 
> ...


Okay, this conversation has gotten off topic and has now turned into a "mine's bigger than yours" contest. While it's true that nobody has to prove themselves here, we all know and can appreciate Firehazard for what he does around these parts, for the breed, for his dogs and for the forum. I'm just going to say this... Everyone seems to be of the same consensus here: You seem to be very "green" yourself when it comes to these dogs and their capabilities. The more you open your mouth, the more uneducated you sound. Either put up, or shut up! The original topic you posted about was about breeders lining up pedigrees versus breeding for form/function. Now we're discussing the locale in which we live (off topic). You hit the nail on the head, and admitted you recognize that Firehazard is authority around here. All of us with burgundy/maroon colored names are staff members, the bold faced names are moderators. I'm in no way threatening you, but I do recommend you mind your manners and tread lightly. I'm also recommending we turn this conversation around and get it back to the original topic at hand or it will be shut down. Firehazard is right, your posts are begging for this thread to be closed just based on your display of sheer lack of knowledge. However, I will allow it to stay open and active, given we can get it back on topic, as this can be a great learning experience for other new people. You wanna have a pissing match with someone, take it to PMs, that's what the private messaging (PM) system is for. This is the only warning I will give. Thank you, in advance, for EVERYONE'S cooperation.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Hahaha... more drama ... what are you upset about? People who anger you control you.. just sayin. This is a waste of time :rofl: and (SIGH) .... 

Dodged your points? you haven't made any. Just slinggin  .. I've answered every question. 

By the way I don't breed for pedigree I breed for the dog.. Pedigree is the DNA map of the dog and should be honest to the dog. 

You done making a vain and calloused attempt at calling me out? I have documented a good deal here on GPB, my methods and way of managing dogs works 9 of 10 times. When I give simple advice it works because it simple truth. I've been in genetic debates with some of the old timers here and proved everyone wrong even myself. I've answered anything you can throw at me.. 

Really Really off topic ... because of your personal feelings towards me.. Stay on topic and keep your personal conflict to yourself.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> Hahaha... more drama ... what are you upset about? People who anger you control you.. just sayin. This is a waste of time however I'll answer your post just so I don't dodge you calling me out on my moose stories.. :rofl: and (SIGH) ....
> 
> Dodged your points? you haven't made any. Just slinggin  .. I've answered every question.
> 
> ...


Yet again, I have to spread the love before I can rep you (much like you, I don't hand it out that often)... but I just have to say... upruns: lol. I smell a dirty cur somewhere on the yard! You don't have to prove yourself, you chose to do that long ago, and that's how you got where you are now. Trust me, I know from experience too. And when I get rep from you, I know I've earned it. Thank you for gracing us with your presence and knowledge.


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

Insulting me doesn't not disprove the validity of my argument. It's called an ad hominem argument. Adjective like "uneducated" and "green" do nothing to contradict what I've said. In fact, it gives what I've said more weight because it means you can not discredit my claims by further the merits of yours, so you resort to personal attacks.

But, to get back on track I'll simplify my original post and break it down into a deductive argument. If any sentence below is false, the conclusion of my argument is invalid. Tell me which sentence is false.

1) Fighting dogs in the U.S. is illegal.
2) Without testing or matching a dog, you can't evaluate gameness in the traditional sense of the word -- hog and bear hunting dogs are a different conversation.
3) So, unless a breeder is doing something illegal or importing their dogs from a country where fighting is legal, that breeder can't honestly say whether the dogs in their yard do or don't have game.
Conclusion: No breeder that doesn't break the law or import their dogs can say whether their dogs are or aren't game.

In addition, I made the following argument:
1) Game was the desired trait, far more so than structure, when dogs were bred to fight.
2) As a result, form followed function -- if a dog had heart and could finish it was bred. So, the gene pool was filled with winners and winners only. 
3) Today, form is the desired trait -- dogs that _look_ like they can win, because breeding for game is illegal, a consequence of matching dogs being an illegal act (see argument above).
4) Conclusion: as a result of today's breeding directives -- form, not function, we have bastardized the breed into things like Staffies and Bullies and Lap Hippos... 
5) Meanwhile people are still saying, "the UKC APBT is the only true pit bull" when in reality, the true pit bulls only resides in those countries where form is determined by function -- fighting -- not selective human breeding.

Now, see if you can counter those two arguments without using colorful adjectives to attack me -- a person you know nothing about. Attack the argument. Attacking me with colorful adjectives doesn't validate your contentions.


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## hotchkiss (Oct 11, 2011)

Ahhh, how romantic! Definitely on topic! You two should get together and share some chocolate mousse! You're dogs can bake it for you!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

You were warned................................................ and you attempted to get back on track however it is clear your emotions are not gonna let that happen... :flush:


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Wow you seriously miss read what people hear are saying and I think your confused. As I said before, the APBT is not a breed that's bred for form over function and if breeders are breeding that way they aren't breeding true APBTs. No one ever said the UKC "APBT" is the only real APBT. We all know that the UKC registers AmStaffs and AmBullies as APBT and most of us are quite aware of the differences in breeds. The ADBA is the better registry for APBTs, while,yes, they do duel reg. dogs, when going into the show ring the judges hold true to the original APBT standard and your not going to see AmBullies and AmStaffs champing out as they do in UKC because they are not APBTs and just don't fit the standard. 

Just because matching dog in the US is illegal doesn't mean that they're aren't game dogs left in the world. Matching dogs is legal in many other countries, and yes dogs get imported all the time. Another thing, just because its illigal doesn't mean these dogs have no purpose left and are bred solely for structure. They are still a working breed. Many breeders are still breeding for working ability over structure so to say they are now just a breed with no purpose and are bred for form over function is incorrect. Wether it's Hunting, WP, PP, Agility ect., these dogs are still being bred to preform a function, not just to stand in a ring looking pretty. Structure is only part of the equation when breeding, not all of it. Of course if you have a dog with bad structure it can't perform a task as well as a dog with better structure but the assumption that this is all their being bred for is totally false.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

^^^great !

I am one who will always argue the importance of structure. But no it shouod never be the first thing bred for. While I firmly believe a good well buit dog would beat an equally good flawed dog. I do realize this is not apways the case. More often then not it is. Many of the greatest dog had a good build. No probabpy not perfect but were extremely flawed either. Sorry this thread had to turn bad could have been a good one...


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