# Multiple Supplements



## FrankTank (Jun 3, 2015)

hi, i have a blue nosed APBT, four years old, 62 pounds. i currently have him on Taste of The Wild Wetlands formula, but i was wondering if it is healthy to give him three supplements/ vitamins a day. He get 1.5 scoops of Nupro gold with his food, along with two Pro Sense adult multivitamins. However, i just ordered him some Bully Max and was wondering if it's ok/safe to give him all three


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

Kibble is made to be a balanced diet so by throwing in a bunch of supplements you'll likely cause cause a vitamin overload and/or throw off the nutritional balance. Unless he's showing signs of some sort of deficiency, which he shouldn't be, or has any conditions that require additives, there no need to give extra vitamins/supplements. 

Bully Max, IMO, is a huge waste of money. If you're looking to get your dog nice and fit the best things you can give him are a good quality diet and plenty of physical exercise.


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## jimxxx (Dec 5, 2013)

I've spoke a lot of APBT and Bully ownwers with very nice muscle tone. I thought also that they are using supplements like Bully/GorillaMax, But they don't, they using the money for good quality food (Kibble,or raw)
Well TOTW is a good balanced Kibble, but maybe you can switched to Orijen instead buying expensive supplements, very high meat % and protein %
And of course physical training like Biking(joring) offroad mushing, treadmill enz....
Success......


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

You best interests are perfect. But extra supplements as above I agree a waste of $. But a rally solid brand. I use Merrick because it has one of the if not the highest protein and fat content with low carbs. The only thing I add is a teaspoon of olive oil a few times a week. It's great for their coat and adds more fat which are both win win. 

Some people feed twice a day and I would until your pup is at least a year plus. I personally just feed once a day and utilize treats, antlers (when on sale) etc. and it works fine. He's a Sid 87lbs and still growing. They forthright stages. My boy is in the final stage referred to as the "pop". It's where they get thicker and bigger heads. 

I searched and looked at easy 10 breeders to find the correct temperament and color I wanted. Because of his bloodline and killer genetics he's awesome. But back on track, my breeder used pedigree which as we think is crap but it's truly ALL genetics!!! I just like the Merrick brand and it's also my name so it's a fun pin, lol. 

Dr. Merrick
LMFT


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

And here is a quick pic of what I'm talking about. It's all genetics and a decent diet. Here's Midnight with NO training, exercise, walks etc., he up to this point was nothing but a solid indoor only couch potato!!!


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

no dog will achieve full potential without exercise. that is physiologically impossible. you may have a great looking dog because he has great genetics. but with proper exercise the dog would have more muscle mass and muscle tone. not to mention more lung capacity, stamina and endurance. and in my opinion the dog would be happier and lead a full life.
take all the money you're spending and buy a higher quality food. or feed raw.
then exercise the shit out of him and he will reach his genetic potential.
but after 5 or 6 years, most dogs will slowly lose muscle mass/tone naturally. especially if they have been neutered.


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

You are absolutely correct, genetics won't cover it all or help them reach "full potential". BUT you need to wait until their bones, tendons etc are able to handle the strenuous exercise required. Which is why we have just now started exercising our dog. 

But don't fool yourself. Regardless of how much muscle he puts on during this period he WILL lose a significant portion and rely BACK to his genetics after a few years or when you stop. The research says this over and over, this is a FACT!!

So waste your $ on supplements if you want or simply buy from a reputable breeder that has a SOLID lineage (genetics) and you will have a phenomenonal looking dog. 

Personally, when I hear people talking about muscle, size stc. It automatically makes me think all they want is the HUGE distorted dogs out there that AGAIN research has shown have MORE physical ailments and shorter life span. 

After all, aren't you after a loving pet? Or did you get side tracked, wanting the internets 1% of dogs available that become the so called "standard"? 

Love and enjoy your pet and they'll return it 10 fold! 

And PLEASE people do some research before flaming me with any lame responses. Genetics and positive reinforcement = loving, family and muscular orientated dog! 

Dr. Merrick
LMFT


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

mftonwheels said:


> And PLEASE people do some research before flaming me with any lame responses.


if this was some kind of bravado statement for me, you are severely mislead.

1. i hold 2 advanced degrees from UCSD, mammalian physiology and neuroscience (i don't need to do research, and my post was a reply to FrankTank, not a response to yours)
2. nobody in this thread stated that supplements are effective (go back and read more closely). there is no need to argue that if everyone agrees.
3. the OP's dog is 4 years old so exercise applies to his situation (this thread is about his dog not about your dog).
4. RELAX bruh


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## FrankTank (Jun 3, 2015)

As far as you are talking about lineage and stuff mfton wheels, if you go read my introduction thread you can read his story. he's a rescue so i didn't really chose his lineage, I chose him because no one else would. Also, i guess i should say that i'm a high school student and my job walking dogs at the local kennel gives me an income of about $300 a month and after car insurance, gas, and other non-dog purchases, it doesn't leave me with enough money to be able to afford dog food, thus my father buys it. he's not poor, but he isn't exactly willing to spend a ton of money on dog food for a dog that isn't is. While i don't doubt the fact that he loves him, and thank him for taking him to the vet and paying for his meds, food, license, and even letting me get him in the first place, a raw diet or a supreme quality dog food does not really fit into our budget. While i do not doubt Taste Of The Wild, after reading my introduction form, you might get the jist that i feel bad for him and i am just trying to give him the healthiest life I can with what i can afford to spend on him


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

Actually your number 4 was what I was going to just say. 

I just had a REALLY bad experience lately with a VERY uneducated landlord and this topic triggered something. 

But I'm on complete track with you. Holding 2 masters degrees, a PhD and numerous in fact countless additional training to achieve the level I'm at it gets under my skin with ignorance (not that any responses here displayed that). 

So l truly apologize to you or anyone else if I came across too rough. I'm actually in complete agreeance with you and "fired up" right now for a client who has a pit mix and was having difficulty finding housing until I interviewed and educated the landlord. Rrrrrr

And FYI I list "LMFT" so nobody gets me confused with a veterinarian. And I'm by far the biggest advocater for support animals especially for this breed. They are sooooo loving, loyal and any other positive trait you can think of. I know my boy has been a blessing MANY times for me. 

So again I apologize if I offended you or anyone!!! 

Dr. M
LMFT


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

And Frank, just feed him regular old pedigree. He'll be fine!! You can toss in scraps from your food if they're appropriate for him because they'll be higher in nutrients but ONLY when you regularly feed him. But be warned, you just opened a door and he'll expect it every time, lol. 

They don't get the cliche "bull headed" from the air. It's from our awesome breed. And than you can always add things like olive oil, chopped veggies etc. be creative. But honestly. Plain old kibble is fine!!

Dr. M
LMFT


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

mftonwheels said:


> Actually your number 4 was what I was going to just say.
> 
> I just had a REALLY bad experience lately with a VERY uneducated landlord and this topic triggered something.
> 
> ...


:cheers:
no apologies required! i'm glad we are on the same page.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

FrankTank said:


> As far as you are talking about lineage and stuff mfton wheels, if you go read my introduction thread you can read his story. he's a rescue so i didn't really chose his lineage, I chose him because no one else would. Also, i guess i should say that i'm a high school student and my job walking dogs at the local kennel gives me an income of about $300 a month and after car insurance, gas, and other non-dog purchases, it doesn't leave me with enough money to be able to afford dog food, thus my father buys it. he's not poor, but he isn't exactly willing to spend a ton of money on dog food for a dog that isn't is. While i don't doubt the fact that he loves him, and thank him for taking him to the vet and paying for his meds, food, license, and even letting me get him in the first place, a raw diet or a supreme quality dog food does not really fit into our budget. While i do not doubt Taste Of The Wild, after reading my introduction form, you might get the jist that i feel bad for him and i am just trying to give him the healthiest life I can with what i can afford to spend on him


if he's already on TOTW, the dog is doing okay. that formula is not bad. but take the money you/your dad is using on Nupro, Pro Sense, and Bullymax and put that toward a better food! those supps are expensive and the money can be put to better use. with that budget you can afford a 5 star food like Orijen or Acana.


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

Ignore the salesman approaches here. Stick to the food he's on, drop the supplements all together and save yourself some money. He'll be fine, again it's all genetics and exercise!! 

You will NOT see any significant increases especially what you want by changing food. Do a simple cost analysis for adding a mere 3-5% in protein / better ingredients etc and after a years time you'll see nothing that you were looking for. 

Again keep the food he's on, drop the supplements start exercising him and he'll be a phenomenal dog the way he was intended to be. Waaaay too much hype in marketing and people feeding into it. 

Feed him 2x a day, have him play on spring pole 2-4 hours a day and walk with a weighted vests (20lbs) every other day. Your dog will be muscular and exactly the way you want him. 

Dr. M
LMFT


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

mftonwheels said:


> Ignore the salesman approaches here. Stick to the food he's on, drop the supplements all together and save yourself some money. He'll be fine, again it's all genetics and exercise!!
> 
> You will NOT see any significant increases especially what you want by changing food. Do a simple cost analysis for adding a mere 3-5% in protein / better ingredients etc and after a years time you'll see nothing that you were looking for.
> 
> ...


That is just plain not true. There is a HUGE difference between a high quality kibble and a low quality kibble. OP is feeding ToTW which is a good quality for someone on a budget, but feeding Purina or a similar brand would not give the same results. Compare it to a human's diet: A person can probably survive on McDonald's, but they will not thrive. Pedigree and other low quality foods are full of fillers and byproducts, they're basically junk food for dogs. That's not marketing hype, that's the truth. You will see improvement in coat health, energy, stamina, etc. when switching off of those foods and on to a higher quality food.


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

Dude re-read my post. I said "keep" feeding him what you are!!! If he's on TOTW than isn't that a high quality brand, ease up turbo. It's all in the details. 

And "food" truly is just food. Those "fillers" ask any breeder they'll lie like crazy than you walk around the side of their kennel and what? Pedigree bags, lol. 

And I have seen for years dogs LIVE just fine happy, joyful lives on yup pedigree. So if you're adding some olive oil here and there (like I said) wait a minute what's that for?? Coats? Hhhhmmm

All I'm saying if the dog is HEALTHY, loving etc and whatever he's feeding him is keeping him that way what's wrong with it??? Come on.... Again, ease up he said he was ALREADY feeding a decent brand. If you want to argue over which brand is the best play elsewhere. 

All that matters is he's healthy, loving etc... Bottom line, end of subject etc. 

Hug a tree and if you want to feed whatever to you're dogs go for it. He can't afford it. Will there be a HUGE difference, NO. 

I feed "Merrick" one of the most expensive and THE highest in protein at 30% AND NO byproducts, all natural, gluten free, etc. why? Because I can AFFORD it. And at 1.5 40lb bags a month ITS EXPENSIVE!!! 

You feed whatever you want, pedigree has kept animals alive, healthy and just fine since inception. You won't find 1 not 1 case that ANY so called "by products" have injured a dog!!!!!! 

As for marketing, IT IS all marketing!!! I'll name another fact you're probably clueless about. There are over 100 different "protein" supplement companies. But did you know there are ONLY 2 manufacturers of protein. You place an order, design a label, tell them whatever you want it to say, have them add whatever you want or not and they will ship it to in however you want it bags, 5lb 10lb bottles etc. but wait over a 100 different "brands" and yet only 2 manufacturers of protein hhhmmm still don't think EVERYTHING we consume isn't manipulated by "marketing"???? 

I wrote my MBA thesis on it. 

Now do you want to talk about vodka? Because they're are over 400 brands there and wanna guess how many companies actuallyanufacture vodka? Nah I'll let you look that up. But don't forget to check "lineage" or the more appropriate term for business "subsidiary"..... 

Keep the dog on whatever you can afford, he'll be fine. Let the tree huggers argue about ingredients!! 

Wow I'm going to have some by products in my coffee and start the day. ? maybe my coat won't be as shiny or I poop more or or or ppppfffff

Don't hate me BC I'm just having some fun at your expense. 


Dr. M
LMFT


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## DickyT (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm with all the Dr's in this thread. I lack their fancy education, being only high school graduate and college drop out, but I know dogs fairly well.

TotW is a good food. It is not Origen or Acana, but it is grainfree, the main meats in each are listed as meat, not meat meal. I feed it to both of my rescue dogs, an apbt\catahoula mutt and a papered 8 year old Gottiline Am Bully that came to me in fairly poor health and they do very well on it.

There is no need to supplement with the items you listed. I do add to their meals, but it is not "supplements" I add a cap full of organic, unfiltered apple cider vinegar with 'the mother' and a tablespoon of diatomaceous earth daily. Then every other day I add a tablespoon of cold pressed, unrefined, extra virgin coconut oil as well.

The main reason for the acv and 'dirt' is flea protection. I have never had to use a commercial flea product, and there are several other health benefits from both. The oil is to add a little extra quality fat, it is great for their skin and coat, plus it has natural antibacterial, antifungal, and antiviral properties, which leads to overall better health. 

My mutt is a mere 18 months old, highly active and very healthy. I see daily progression with the Bully back to good health.


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

Thanks Dicky. Finally a brain.... ANYONE can get a degree, pay you tuition, attend school and eventually graduate just like a recipe. It's all crap and ego boosting. 

btw, just drank my coffee with some by products and don't see any hair falling out and don't have to poop more and and lol 

Let's all just relax. And good job being creative with products available that do the same thing as the expensive name brand specific items. I'd personally LOVE to hear more. I'm playing with charcoal bags in my water bottles to keep my dog from burning the grass. So have an idea share it!!! 

Dr M
LMFT


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

DickyT said:


> I'm with all the Dr's in this thread. I lack their fancy education, being only high school graduate and college drop out, but I know dogs fairly well.
> 
> *experience is more valuable than a textbook.*
> 
> ...





mftonwheels said:


> Thanks Dicky. Finally a brain.... ANYONE can get a degree, pay you tuition, attend school and eventually graduate just like a recipe. It's all crap and ego boosting.
> 
> *i believe real world experience is the best source of knowledge. BUT not anyone can get a degree. and not anyone can pay tuition. and i can't believe a doctor would say that. i'm assuming you hold an MD. did you get that somewhere in the bahamas? if you actually took MCATs and were admitted to an accredited medical school, you could not possibly believe that rubbish. *
> 
> ...


i'm over this dude. no more from me.


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## DickyT (Jan 29, 2014)

JoKealoha said:


> experience is more valuable than a textbook.


I know that first hand! My simple minded, unedumacated butt with 20 years IT experience, is a Sr. Systems Administrator for a billion plus dollar aerospace manufacturing conglomerate, made up of 35 subsidiaries and growing.

My wife with her dual bachelors, and masters in psychology seems to always be bouncing between "jobs". She just can't seem to settle into her career utilizing her fancy pieces of paper from expensive private universities, which equals a couple hundred grand in debt that is seemingly not worth it.

I call it lack of effort on her part. She calls it being an @$$4013 on my part! lol


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

Mftonwheels, I was referring to your previous comment "just feed him Pedigree".

If there was no difference between low and high quality foods, there wouldn't BE low and high quality foods. Like I said, compare it to a human living on McDonald's. Sure they can SURVIVE, but that doesn't make it "no different" to a healthy diet. 

I don't know why you've come here defensive and rude yet tell us to calm down. "Finally a brain", really?


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## jttar (Jan 31, 2013)

JoKealoha said:


> i'm over this dude. no more from me.


It seems you are not alone JoKealoha, with every recent post the "Doctor" has made the list grows. I also notice that mftonwheels is so busy educating everyone and boasting about degree's that Dicky's post went right over his head.

mftonwheels, a bit of advice. Slow down on the posting and start doing some reading. Get the feel of this forum, it's members and how we respect each other. Most everyone here loves discussion and loves to learn and share their knowledge. We don't, however, tolerate someone spouting off bad advice or offending respected members. If your recent posts are typical of your forum behavior I would suggest you find a different forum that fits your personality better. Believe me they are out there but definitely NOT here.

jttar


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

DickyT said:


> I call it lack of effort on her part. She calls it being an @$$4013 on my part! lol


Wrong thing to say to a woman, Dicky. :rofl:


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## STiLL WILL (May 1, 2013)

JoKealoha said:


> i'm over this dude. no more from me.


x2

x2

There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this message board who have put in actual time and REAL LIFE experience with bull breed health, nutrition, & conditioning. Myself included. Some of the things posted are so off, I refuse to even address them for the sake of my own frustration.

I will only speak for myself on the next part: if one doesn't have direct experience or anything to show for with giving health/nutrition/conditioning, RELAX, take a seat, and read. I mean that in the most literal way I can put it. The need for degrees or doctorates to understand proper care(IN ALL ASPECTS) for bull breeds is not nearly as valuable as real life experience.

The people who laid the foundation for the APBT weren't all holders of doctorates. Hell, most of them probably had less education than some of our children! They knew what worked, how these dogs respond to exercise, nutrition, training, and they knew how to consistently pull the best out of breedings.

The keyboard chest pounding in this thread is completely unnecessary and unwarranted...bordering on flat out disrespectful.

Sorry to the OP for blowing this thread up but jeezuz...


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

Why are you even chiming in?? 

Enough already. It's like everyone is jumping in and reading one or two posts, trying to validate their lack of education and peacock their experience. Hell I have over 20 years with this breed as well but I am also actually educated. Who cares... Seriously. Again ANYONE can become educated you study for a test etc. if you disagree, you're making excuses. 

You say relax, but seriously looking at your post, it contributed NOTHING. If you had read I apologized very early on and said the topic struck a nerve and than it all died down. 

Than someone (like you) comes along as stated above opening it up again..... Take your own advice, RELAX we all have! Or do you and the other new people chiming in feel inadequate or the need to again try and articulate your lack of education and say it compares to someone who is AND has just as much experience with this breed. If so, see the IT guys wife who needs clients for therapy! 

It's the equivalent now of everyone pulling down their pants to see who's bigger! 

This is getting wasaaaaay out of control. The dude is happy, heck so is everyone else. so take your own advice and ignore this and relax! 

This post should be closed. It's going no where.... Well actually in a sad way its becoming entertainment.

LOL. Let's all just get along.


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

Mods, is see this guy done yet? I refuse to even respond to yet another post dripping with arrogance, ignorance and superiority and it seems everyone else feels the same.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Nupro us a great supplement but DO NOT do the Bully Max. 
If you are not heavily exercising him TOTW and Nupro are fine... Even just TOTW is fine. 

If you are wanting to really work and condition your dog then some supplements are helpful, but Bully Max is NOT one of them.

Just return it or throw it out.


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## mftonwheels (Jun 2, 2015)

I commend you Coach for your courage as well as utilizing your federal right to state your "opinion" and not get flamed or have to battle it out because it's your right. 

But don't worry although this post is a tad off topic new legislation is being written every day and it IS currently a federal crime to "cyber bully" and taken very serious. 

Again, great post Coach!! 


Dr. M
LMFT


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## FrankTank (Jun 3, 2015)

I appreciate everyone's response regarding the thread. It seems like the general opinion is to take him off of bully max and pro sense, although I think I will probably leave him on Nupro as I've seen the most improvement of him overall with that.


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## Draco88543 (Oct 4, 2014)

Coach what is so bad about Bully Max? I've been researching supplements like crazy lately, haven't decided which route to go yet. But I've read a lot of good reviews on Bully Max and the price isn't bad either. Just curious why you think so little of the product, like I said I haven't used any supplements for my girl yet. Just been doing a lot of research.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

bully max, gorilla max, all that useless crap, is a waste of money. it does not provide a nutritional advantage over proper diet. the protein comes from whey and soy. basically the cheapest and lowest quality of protein available. actual meat source is biologically more effective. the "energy" that users report comes from guarana extract which is high potency caffeine. that's like giving your dog 2 shots of espresso. what do you think that does to his heart and nerves over a few years?
all the other ingredients can be found in regular dog food. not even a good dog food. the cheapest dog food has all the same ingredients.
save your money.
these products make misleading claims like "no corn syrup". which is what products used to say before people figured out that corn syrup = sugar = bad. so now they use new words that mean the same shit. focus your research on what the ingredients actual are. fancy names like "maltodextrin" sound like something really important and advanced. it's a grain starch just like corn syrup with a high glycemic index (SUGAR).
marketing and branding are powerful tools but not as powerful as consumer awareness. get your learn on.


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## Draco88543 (Oct 4, 2014)

This is why I haven't purchased any supplements yet. I've just been looking at everything. Thanks for the info.


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