# I realllyyy NEED some advice!!!



## Jblondie813 (Oct 1, 2008)

I had posted a few weeks ago about my Hov having a heart murmur. He is 1 1/2 yrs old and has a grade 3 out of 6 heart murmur. He needs to get fixed because he is showing aggression here and there towards animals and very selective people. I got the ECG done and his bloodwork. The blookwork turned out good. The ECG confirmed the murmur and that its a grade 3 and his heartrate is irregular.

Here's my predicament.... (what would you do??)

Should I take him to get fixed at a local spay/neuter clinic for $90 and take a chance on losing him bc they are limited as to what they can do for him incase of complications?

OR

Should I take him to our primary vet for $270 where they hook him up to the ECG machine and have techs monitoring his heartrate at all times by the ECG machine and a stethescope and someone stays with him until he comes out of the anesthesia and can stand on his own?

He needs to get fixed either way.... I really cannot afford the $270 but I can swing it if I have to...I would just hate to pay that much and end up losing him...
PLEASE HELP!


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## fanfan13580 (Jun 7, 2010)

OMG that's terrible!! I'm so sorry for your dog!! 
Did you talk with the vet? Maybe you can do a payment plan or something?? I know that I can do a payment plan with my Vet in France, I don't know about here if they do that.... But you can always ask
Either way I wish you the best and hope everything is gonna be okay


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Fixing him will not cure his aggression toward anything. Fixing a dog doesn't change a dogs attitude or temperament.


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## Jblondie813 (Oct 1, 2008)

Spay and Neuter

Frequently asked questions about castrating a dog:

Q) Should I have my dog neutered?

A) Similar to the spaying a dog discussion, the pros and cons to this question will be addressed.

Pros:

1. Behavior problems such as roaming and aggression are generally reduced.

The #1 Pro...^^

It should help with his aggression...he is not aggressive all the time and it will make him more calm. I have spoke to the place where he goes to doggie daycare and they definitely think he will benefit from the neutering because he won't have all the testosterone going thru his veins...even our primary vet said that is the first step in helping with aggression!

ANYWAYS...My husband is on the side where he doesn't want to pay $270...but I on the other hand want to pay because then if something does go wrong we don't have to think "what if" bc we will have done everything possible for him..


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Wouldn't it be just as bad as paying $90 and losing him or paying $270 and losing him? Fixed males are still aggressive. You need to take him to a trainer who specializes in aggression and the APBT. My uncle used to own a fixed male who still attacked multiple people even after being neutered. Maybe a better way to tell if it helped with aggression is ask men and women who have gone through the procedure if they feel less aggressive.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I know this may be a really silly/dumb question, but how did your dog go 1.5 years without his heart murmur being detected?


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

You need to check with a real vet and see what they think...

My dog has a heart murmur and the vet said they would not neuter him. Those cheap spay/neuter places don't pay enough attention to anything that's why I would never use one on ANY animal.


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## Jblondie813 (Oct 1, 2008)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> I know this may be a really silly/dumb question, but how did your dog go 1.5 years without his heart murmur being detected?


I have NO idea...our primary vet heard a small murmur when he was a pup and just said to keep and eye on it and we even took him to get his ears cropped and the vet that cropped his ears didn't detect the murmur either. He has been seen by 4 different vets and the only time I heard about the heart murmur was once and she said that pups usually grow out of it so I didn't think twice when all the other vets didn't hear it. I thought he grew out of it. Then when I took him to the clinic in the first place to get him neutered they said they do a thorough exam before operating and they found his heart murmur...



Roxy_Nie said:


> You need to check with a real vet and see what they think...
> 
> My dog has a heart murmur and the vet said they would not neuter him. Those cheap spay/neuter places don't pay enough attention to anything that's why I would never use one on ANY animal.


Well 2 real vets (we are military..our primary vet off base and primary vet on base) said that going to the clinic is really chancing it because they only have the equipment needed to perform the fixing. The vet on base actually worked at the clinic before and recommended going to a full service vet for the neutering...

Ugh...I know it seems like a no brainer...its just, I need some outsiders POV!


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## erik (Dec 8, 2009)

mine had the murmur, the older he got its gone.give it a lil time. he'll probly always be d.a. with or without his man hood.


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

I have to say that neutering does NOT always help calm anything in a lot of dogs.
All my males are always fixed, I've had some never become aggressive but I do NOT associate that with being fixed I believe it was just who they were, their natural temperament. I've also had males neutered who became aggressive after they matured, continued marking and still humped. Its all the individual dog so I hope your not looking for a quick fix. Your best bet is getting him into some serious obedience training so you can learn to control behaviors that he may always have.

Good luck with everything ....


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Jblondie813 said:


> I have NO idea...our primary vet heard a small murmur when he was a pup and just said to keep and eye on it and we even took him to get his ears cropped and the vet that cropped his ears didn't detect the murmur either. He has been seen by 4 different vets and the only time I heard about the heart murmur was once and she said that pups usually grow out of it so I didn't think twice when all the other vets didn't hear it. I thought he grew out of it. Then when I took him to the clinic in the first place to get him neutered they said they do a thorough exam before operating and they found his heart murmur...
> 
> Well 2 real vets (we are military..our primary vet off base and primary vet on base) said that going to the clinic is really chancing it because they only have the equipment needed to perform the fixing. The vet on base actually worked at the clinic before and recommended going to a full service vet for the neutering...
> 
> Ugh...I know it seems like a no brainer...its just, I need some outsiders POV!


I also had 3-4 vets listen to one of my dog's heart, through out the course of his life, without indicating any murmur, only to find out toward the end of his life that he did have a murmur and an enlargement. The more I learn on this site, the less I trust any future vets, seriously. And that stinks


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

As a dog trainer and behaviorist I can tell you getting your dog neutered can help a little with some aggression but in most cases it does nothing. Now if your aggression was based out of sex drive like fighting over a female then that can decrease. If you really want neutering to have the best chance of having an effect on behavior you need to have it done earlier when these problems first come up like 6-8 months not after they are maturing at 1.5 years. But even then in a breed like the APBT DA and animal aggression is normal and can be expected.

If you dog is DA and showing signs of being HA that is a temperament issues not a hormone issues. The DA you can handle it is part of owing this breed but the HA worries me and you should have your dog evaluated by trainer and see what they say. if you do is truly HA then save yourself the money and put him down. If you dog just has some issues to work out then save up the money and get the surgery done right. A Grade 3 is not that bad and doing the surgery under someone who can watch him, he should be just fine. However if your dog is HA (human aggressive) then you should put him down because that is not the temperament of a APBT and is a huge liability to you.


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## fortyfootelf (Feb 2, 2010)

usually when you neuter a male it doens take that aggression out of him, it will take out very little of the territorial instinct, but your not going to fix much by neutering, maybe the marking of the furnature but i highly doubt that you will reep the benifits of your dog loosing his aggression towards other dogs. but it does affect other dogs differently. if thats what your hoping to accomplish with the neutering, i personally dont think youre going to be satisfied after the fact. good luck. i really cant give you much information about heart murmors but you can ask geistexe for some more info about that kid of thing, she is extremely helpful when it comes down to health and nutrition


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## Jblondie813 (Oct 1, 2008)

Thanks for all of your input.

After thinking long and hard and talking to the vet techs at the spay/neuter clinic I will be taking Hov to the clinic tomorrow. PLEASE say a prayer that everything will go fine?!

As for his aggressiveness, its not ALL the time so I think neutering him with be the first attempt in getting it under control. Then if that does not work then we will call up a trainer and see what they have to say. We will not hesitate to put him down after we have done everything we can to try to "fix" him. But I will not let him be another statistic!! He will get put down before he bites anyone or attacks anything!!

He is truly a sweet boy! Its just certain dogs and certain people make him uncomfortable...
At doggy daycare he tried fighting with the other males that were playing with the females...
Idk if his behavior is stress related because my husband is away for 2 1/2 months, or that he feels my stress because we are moving and I have to take care of everything by myself... but like I said...We WILL get to the bottom of this!!

Please don't forget to say a prayer for my baby tomorrow!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Jblondie813 said:


> At doggy daycare he tried fighting with the other males that were playing with the females...
> Idk if his behavior is stress related because my husband is away for 2 1/2 months, or that he feels my stress because we are moving and I have to take care of everything by myself... but like I said...We WILL get to the bottom of this!!
> 
> Please don't forget to say a prayer for my baby tomorrow!


If you are worried about money why not have him evaluated first then determine if you want to PTS or train him. It seems backwards to waste money fixing him to just put him down in a few months. Human aggression WILL NOT CHANGE because you fix him.

Doggie day care? That is your first mistake this breed does not belong at doggie day care they were bred for 100's of years to kill other dogs you cannot just through away years of instinct. I have said this before it is like getting a border collies and asking it not to herd sheep, you are working against years of breeding. Now you can have a dog who is under control in public all my dogs are like that but I would never put them off leash with other dogs because of the DA. Pit Bull ownership 101 APBT's or bully type dogs do not belong in groups of dogs like at he dog park or day care. If you having aggression issues then no wonder why, you are putting him in a situation he should not be in.

I wish you luck on getting him fixed but you're going to be disappointed when it does not fix the DA or HA. You really should have him evaluated first for HA then decide how much money you want to dump into training.

JMO


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> If you are worried about money why not have him evaluated first then determine if you want to PTS or train him. It seems backwards to waste money fixing him to just put him down in a few months. Human aggression WILL NOT CHANGE because you fix him.
> 
> Doggie day care? That is your first mistake this breed does not belong at doggie day care they were bred for 100's of years to kill other dogs you cannot just through away years of instinct. I have said this before it is like getting a border collies and asking it not to herd sheep, you are working against years of breeding. Now you can have a dog who is under control in public all my dogs are like that but I would never put them off leash with other dogs because of the DA. Pit Bull ownership 101 APBT's or bully type dogs do not belong in groups of dogs like at he dog park or day care. If you having aggression issues then no wonder why, you are putting him in a situation he should not be in.
> 
> ...


I will start off by saying that I agree with you Lisa about being very aware of pit bulls with other dogs, etc. however, it becomes quite confusing when all a person has to do is go to the PICTURES section of this site and see picture after picture of pit bulls with other pits/dogs, and not necessarily on leashes. I think it gives the wrong impression sometimes. I don't know.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

No having APBT's with other dogs is fine if they can tolerate it. Most can't tolerate being around other dogs or they are ok in one situation but have problems in others. I have dogs that get along together but that can change quickly. Also many of us who have multiple dogs know the danger of DA and NEVER leave our dogs alone together because you can come home to a dead dog.
Here is a perfect example with my dogs, they are all under control sitting for their Halloween pictures (huge hefner and the playboy bunnies) I have several bitches in this picture that would KILL each other if they were off leash. They are fine in public under control but I would never trust them off leash. Now I do have some dogs I cannot even have on leash together but it just depends on the dog.









Tempest is extremely DA and here she is sitting for a picture for our agility team for the tournament we had last year. Tempest grew up with that little Border Terrier next to her and they really love each other but off leash Tempest Prey drive kicks in and she would kill him if I let her "play" with him off leash. She is fine for a while then it will turn nasty.









This dog Tasha was a rescued fighting dog and it took years for her to be able to rehab and be with other dogs. This was taken at an agility competition and she did well with her career. Tasha loves Hank to a point, again I would never leave them alone together for a second. Tasha also killed another one of my dogs a several years ago because she popped a crate and was lose with another one of my dogs.








Here is Tasha with some other dogs and Vixen, Her and Vixen HATE each other I don't think I can even have them together on leash without muzzles now. They were fine for 6-7 years together and one day, they hated each other.









My point is you can have some dogs get along, some get along for years, some get along some of the time but you have to respect what this breed was bred to do. KILL OTHER DOGS. Now of course you can have dogs that will get along for their entire lives but the majority have to be watched closely. Those that have had this breed for many years understand the dangers of putting them in situations like a dog park or doggie day care. You can have buddies that your dog can play with if they are not that DA but a situation like a dog park is dangerous because you never know what will come into the park. All it takes is one dog to posture or growl and there you go, a huge fight. It is not worth it and of course if there is a fight who is at fault..... any bully breed.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> No having APBT's with other dogs is fine if they can tolerate it. Most can't tolerate being around other dogs or they are ok in one situation but have problems in others. I have dogs that get along together but that can change quickly. Also many of us who have multiple dogs know the danger of DA and NEVER leave our dogs alone together because you can come home to a dead dog.
> Here is a perfect example with my dogs, they are all under control sitting for their Halloween pictures (huge hefner and the playboy bunnies) I have several bitches in this picture that would KILL each other if they were off leash. They are fine in public under control but I would never trust them off leash. Now I do have some dogs I cannot even have on leash together but it just depends on the dog.
> 
> 
> ...


Lisa, please don't take it in any way that I'm disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that if a newbie comes to this site and sees all the pictures of pits and other pits/dogs together but then hears about the possible DA, they may get confused or feel like there is something hypocritical going on here. It reminds me of when people brag about how tough there pit is and how it was MEANT to fight (MEANT and BRED are two different things) but then condemn fighting. It's tough talk, and we all do it to some degree. But I agree with ya Lisa and I think its a situation you have to '"feel" for with your own dogs,but don't ever rely on, you know.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I know what your saying but if we do have newbies they will learn real quick by doing research what pit bulls are about and that illusion of pit bull running free will come crashing down to reality! lol


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> I know what your saying but if we do have newbies they will learn real quick by doing research what pit bulls are about and that illusion of pit bull running free will come crashing down to reality! lol


Amen to that, and everyone starts out as a newbie!


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## PrairieMoonPits (Dec 16, 2009)

As with any bully breed if they can tolerate some dogs that you know well and the owners and they are fully supervised in the interaction and are seperated when early warning signs come up I don't have issues with that but doggie day cares are a no no! Period Everything Lisa tells you please listen to her she's been in dogs alot longer then most of us have been around (no offense ment Lisa!! just saying you know your stuff ) Pits are DA flat out and no amount of neutering/spaying is going to fix that. And any dog with HA issues even minor should be evaluated immediately before doing anything else because you'll be paying more than likely just as much if not more to have him PTS... get him evaluated first and neutering to solve aggression or hyper dogs is a myth I had a male who was neutered at 8 weeks by our local Humane Society and if he could he would kill another dog he chewed through a solid travel crate and killed one of my females due to his crate not being locked properly. And he was a silent dog like most real pits are they give no warning just strike thats why HA should never be tolerated due to the fact you will never know when it could happen! Please take the advice given get him evaluated!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

HEY! I'm only 30! lol Man I'm getting old! the sad thing is I use to be the young one (and still am) among the dog ppl here because I started showing at an early age. I started almost 16 years ago with my first APBT and yes you are right we are all newbies at some point and I only wish I had a resource like this when I started. It would have saved me years of ignorance and trail and error! 

When I started everyone made fun of me because I was a kid with a pit bull and a blanket and I had no clue what I was doing but wanted to get into dog I had all the wrong equipment and man dog show ppl can be really mean!! Now I always will help newbies at shows because I remember that was me only 15 years ago. Sorry for getting off topic just remembering the good old days!


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> HEY! I'm only 30! lol Man I'm getting old! the sad thing is I use to be the young one (and still am) among the dog ppl here because I started showing at an early age. I started almost 16 years ago with my first APBT and yes you are right we are all newbies at some point and I only wish I had a resource like this when I started. It would have saved me years of ignorance and trail and error!
> 
> When I started everyone made fun of me because I was a kid with a pit bull and a blanket and I had no clue what I was doing but wanted to get into dog I had all the wrong equipment and man dog show ppl can be really mean!! Now I always will help newbies at shows because I remember that was me only 15 years ago. Sorry for getting off topic just remembering the good old days!


I can dig it Lisa, I just turned 40! and there was no computer in my apartment 16 years ago. Hell, when I was in school, computers were only good for making my name appear across the screen a million times LOL! ( and I didn't even spell my name right ). Those were the days. Point being, I never had any info. like this back then either, and I wouldn't say I'm technologically up to date even now. You done good, though


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