# What is Gameness



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

....................................


----------



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks for this. I think I have a better understanding now, as to what gameness is.


----------



## Kayo45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Very good read


----------



## dday (Oct 5, 2010)

Quote:"Generally speaking, a game dog is an emotionally stable, easy-going dog, especially good with kids. Gameness should not be confused with aggressiveness. There are plenty of aggressive dogs that are not game. Aggressiveness will propell a dog into a fight but will only sustain him for the first few minutes. Gameness, on the other hand, will not necessarily make a dog fight-happy; but if the dog has no other choice but to fight, a game dog will fight until it wins or dies trying"

This is the TRUE bull dog in a nut shell in my opinion. This is what I have always believed and adhered to. And I will not own a bull dog that does not exhibit exactly that. 
Now if we can teach some of the new youngsters this!


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Amen Dday! Gotta love it  I hope everyone reads this at least once


----------



## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

in my world,reading this,and witnessing it in the realm of the american pit bull terrier are 2 seperate entities.
for those that read it,and never get to experience it,my heart goes out to you.
describing the virtues,and seeing them displayed in the test of the times is the only way to see it 100%.
I'm glad I'm as old as I am.just this once.for I am not bound to the words,as I have seen it in it's truest APBT fashion.


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

See the first line of my signature


----------



## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

This is a very good read. Thanks for posting it up. I'm going to make i a sticky in the general section.


----------



## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Great read!thanks for posting


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Good post!

Id like to add 

A game dog is something most of you will never see or even own or even touch. There is dogs that will give what it was bred to do but that doesn't mean gameness is absolute. Gameness isn't a weight pull dog pulling 9k, that means the dog is strong. Gameness isn't a crazy acting foaming at the mouth dog because it sees another dog, that is aggressiveness. Gameness isn't a dog taking a hold, that is what they were bred to do. Gameness isn't a W or Ch, that means he is pit bulldog. Gameness will be absolute destruction with a no quit attitude ever, no eye rolling to the ceiling, no hesitation to move across the line, no pay attention to the surroundings, eyes forward with the world quite except for the opponent accross from them, just full on ass kicking heart from the Go till the fat lady sings.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

That is very awesome; the Dr left out, the APBT does has muscles in place where their strength is in holding, but yeah lock jaw is crap..they hold on cause they want to and cause they can. Just like a Rotti, GSD, and Wolves have more power in snapping and less in holding. We can see this with current bite tests conducted by Brady Barr, NATGEO. Great Read none the less..


----------



## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Great post!!  I'm glad I read this.



Firehazard said:


> That is a very awesome; the Dr left out, the APBT does has muscles in place where their strength is in holding, but yeah lock jaw is crap..they hold on cause they want to and cause they can. Just like a Rotti, GSD, and Wolves have more power in snapping and less in holding. We can see this with current bite tests conducted by Brady Barr, NATGEO. Great Read none the less..


^^agreed. I believe I either read or watched something about that. The muscles for their jaws ARE bigger than other breeds, so they do have more holding power, but they definitely don't have locking jaws.


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

I believe if you took 100 of each of the dogs they tested bulldogs would bite harder on average, I'm sorry a GSD is not goin to bite harder than a good bulldog period. But lets face you can't accuratlly test a dogs bite force
Good Read.
As for gameness it is rare and most will never experience it.


----------



## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Mcleod15 said:


> As for gameness it is rare and most will never experience it.


maybe for the folks of modern day,but I've stood on several of the tards in the carolinas,and tennessee are.stood there and looked out at 15,20,40 and one yard had 55 dogs back then.not countin puppies.and each one of them had their respective amount of game dogs..


----------



## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Good post!
> 
> Id like to add
> 
> A game dog is something most of you will never see or even own or even touch. There is dogs that will give what it was bred to do but that doesn't mean gameness is absolute. Gameness isn't a weight pull dog pulling 9k, that means the dog is strong. Gameness isn't a crazy acting foaming at the mouth dog because it sees another dog, that is aggressiveness. Gameness isn't a dog taking a hold, that is what they were bred to do. Gameness isn't a W or Ch, that means he is pit bulldog. Gameness will be absolute destruction with a no quit attitude ever, no eye rolling to the ceiling, no hesitation to move across the line, no pay attention to the surroundings, eyes forward with the world quite except for the opponent accross from them, just full on ass kicking heart from the Go till the fat lady sings.


Very nice thread Sadie, extremely good read...

MISSAPBT.. I completely agree!!!!!!


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

william williamson said:


> maybe for the folks of modern day,but I've stood on several of the tards in the carolinas,and tennessee are.stood there and looked out at 15,20,40 and one yard had 55 dogs back then.not countin puppies.and each one of them had their respective amount of game dogs..


Looking at gamedogs on a yard is not the same as "Experiencing" one show it in the box.


----------



## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Mcleod15 said:


> Looking at gamedogs on a yard is not the same as "Experiencing" one show it in the box.


been in many A 'baccer barn,in tarheel,dublin red springs, the green swamp,
knew many of the old boys from that area and the mountains.all through georgia,Tenn, S.carolina and all over Fl.
seen jacobs dogs go,mountain man dogs go,chavis dogs go boudreaux dogs go.been on them yards where they wouldn't have white or mostly white dogs, or OFRN,cause they were to bulky and hard to tear down and bring back.
I seen and know a lil sum sum.


----------



## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

william williamson said:


> been in many A 'baccer barn,in tarheel,dublin red springs, the green swamp,
> knew many of the old boys from that area and the mountains.all through georgia,Tenn, S.carolina and all over Fl.
> seen jacobs dogs go,mountain man dogs go,chavis dogs go boudreaux dogs go.been on them yards where they wouldn't have white or mostly white dogs, or OFRN,cause they were to bulky and hard to tear down and bring back.
> I seen and know a lil sum sum.


Then consider your self one of the few.


----------



## aussie monster pitt (Mar 3, 2011)

what a good read :thumsup: 

but ive owned 3 english staffys and out of the 3, 2 of them were as game or possibly even gamer than my pit is and so good with kids ive never seen any dog as affectionate as my staffs were i never had none of my dogs in a pit and they werent DA but i adopted a male pit who was at least twice the size of my lil black staff and on the second day after i got him the APBT attacked my staffy and geez it was the biggest blood bath i had ever seen i was able to pull my staffy off but then the pit would snap around nd go for the kill i had to go and get my next door neighbour to help me and unfortunatly when we returned the pit was dead.

all im trying to say is we cant count out other breeds gamness just because of the breed or the lack of selective breeding for gameness because you know what they say
"IT'S NOT THE DOG IN THE FIGHT, IT'S THE FIGHT IN THE DOG"

but i have to say thank you for the post its an excellent definition of what a game dog is ive never seen a better description for it.


----------



## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

aussie monster pitt said:


> what a good read :thumsup:
> 
> but ive owned 3 english staffys and out of the 3, 2 of them were as game or possibly even gamer than my pit is and so good with kids ive never seen any dog as affectionate as my staffs were i never had none of my dogs in a pit and they werent DA but i adopted a male pit who was at least twice the size of my lil black staff and on the second day after i got him the APBT attacked my staffy and geez it was the biggest blood bath i had ever seen i was able to pull my staffy off but then the pit would snap around nd go for the kill i had to go and get my next door neighbour to help me and unfortunatly when we returned the pit was dead.
> 
> ...


Hey, mate, nice to see another aussie on here. There's a few of us on here as well as some NZers. Welcome to the forum.

I'd go easy on calling your dogs game, though, mate. Just because they've killed a dog in an accidental fight doesn't make it game. It just means it's the one left. Not quite the same thing.


----------



## SouthernMystery (Feb 20, 2011)

Aussie, I wouldn't call your dog game at all. I would say that your dog is da. Da and game isn't the samething. Unless your dog has been tested in the pit against multiple dogs, I wouldn't call it game.


----------



## Padlock (Nov 19, 2010)

Degrees of Gameness by Tom Garner 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we are to agree that dogs can have different degrees of gameness (or curness, if you will) on different days and under different circumstances (and I believe that most of us have witnessed this fact), then we can't even be certain of the absolute gameness of a dog that we see die with his tail wagging, because we can only speculate about how he might have performed on a different day, at a different age, with a different opponent We must bear in mind that a living thing, dog or man, is a biochemical dynamic entity that is in a constant state of flux They and we are different now than we were even one minute ago. The conditions and tendencies that existed yesterday may be long gone tomorrow. So perhaps we should only say about a dog that he was game or cur on a particular day, under specific circumstances?

Also, we should ask ourselves what the objective of a match is? Is it to determine gameness? If it is, it is often a miserable failure. Most often we see one dog quit and the winner is most often still of undetermined gameness. How often does the winner die in the pit? If he doesnt, then he wasn't truly tested, was he? If there is only one degree of gameness and that degree is dead-gameness and we have game testing as our objective, then the irony is that just as we are proving the worth of our dog, we are proving our own stupidity as we are destroying our own worthy dog.

Maybe the objective of a match is simply to see which dog can scratch longer than the other dog, which relegates gameness to a rote as being but one of several significant ingredients.

Now if we are truly intending to be gameness fanatics, then matching is a relatively useless forum for us. The best method for breeding "game" dogs is to breed our prospects all we intend to, then test them to their death (with video camera rolling) and if they die right, raise their pups. If they are not, then euthanize their pups. Even better, let's have a team of medical experts present who can "revive" our clinicaly dead dogs so that they can be tested for "dead gameness" on another day, under other circumstances. One would think that a double-dead-game dog would be better than a dog that only died right once. In this way we can determine if a dead game performance by a dog was truly indicative of his genetic make-up and to ensure that he didn't just have a day in which he rose above his true worth, much like Buster Douglas when he fought Tyson.

I think, as have indicated at length elsewhere, that gameness (defined as the willingness to persevere against adversity) is a state (affected by numerous traits) that may vary to a significant degree within a dog from day to day, and certainly is present in different amounts from animal to animal. The fact that it is variable is amply demonstrated by the great degree of variability of time that matches last. Gameness is defined by a continuum that ranges from none to complete, from a willingness to endure only a little adversity to an acceptance of the worst kind of adversity.

The human mind attempts to reduce complex reality from infinite shades of gray to black and white simply because it gives us the illusion that we have a complete grasp of it However it is a false comfort one that changes not one iota the reality of a multitude of gray shades.

Now it may be that we can say "I will not settle for anything short of dead game in my breeding stock", and that is an admirable objective. But to deny the accomplishment of a 3-hour dog that quits, by saying he is no different than a two minute cur is illogical and perhaps immoral as it cheats him of his credit We might instead say. "I am so committed to breeding only dead game dogs that for my purposes, a three hour cur is no better than a two minute cur". I can accept that statement but to simply, unequivocally say they are the same is unacceptable.

Also, folks are fond of saying, The only dead game dog is a dead dog". The reality is that the dog was a dead game dog before he fought but his gameness was not proven to human satisfaction. The act of fighting does not create gameness. Gameness is a response potential, which is demonstrated in the fight not created in the fight Therefore there are in fact dead game dogs waking around as we speak, we just can't be sure which ones they are.


----------



## aussie monster pitt (Mar 3, 2011)

aus_staffy said:


> Hey, mate, nice to see another aussie on here. There's a few of us on here as well as some NZers. Welcome to the forum.
> 
> I'd go easy on calling your dogs game, though, mate. Just because they've killed a dog in an accidental fight doesn't make it game. It just means it's the one left. Not quite the same thing.


cheers for the welcome.
yeah saying your dogs game seems like the end of the world on hear but all these people saying staffs arent game but im sure there are dogmen some where out there using them in the pit i just dont like ruling out a dog just because of the breed i mean as much as i love my pitbull the ridgeback was bred to kill lions so id say they would be more game than pitbulls but writing that on here would be tying my own noose lol btw i hate ridgeback lol big lanky things


----------



## aussie monster pitt (Mar 3, 2011)

SouthernMystery said:


> Aussie, I wouldn't call your dog game at all. I would say that your dog is da. Da and game isn't the samething. Unless your dog has been tested in the pit against multiple dogs, I wouldn't call it game.


like i said mate my dog wasnt DA but thats ok call it wat ya want i dont care if he was game or not i didnt get him for that reason so doesnt really bother me.
i was just trying to make a statment that there are other breeds out there that can be as game as a pit.
so dont shoot me for making an input.

but thanks for the info mate


----------



## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Welcome Auzzie!

I would say more high driven rather than game


----------



## aussie monster pitt (Mar 3, 2011)

lol thanks MISSAPBTill keep it in mind next time haha


----------



## emazingli (Mar 16, 2011)

More coffees Sadie for reading that long and nice definition of gameness.


----------



## Temptation Bound Kennels (Oct 10, 2010)

one of the best ad on the subject that I have read!


----------



## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Temptation Bound Kennels said:


> one of the best ad on the subject that I have read!


 hands down!!

Thank you Sadie!!


----------



## blueragepitbulls (Jul 14, 2011)

amen:clap:


----------



## BowieIsMyHomie (Aug 30, 2011)

wow, great and interesting read. Not sure ill ever see "Gameness" or experience it, but sounds like a good trait to keep in bloodlines.


----------



## Papi_ (Aug 30, 2011)

Verry helpfull.
cheers.


----------



## BittersweetEmbrace (Feb 24, 2010)

Good read.


----------



## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Good bump! Its like a APBT love letter

Great post Sadie! :woof:


----------



## ssmurf10 (Jul 17, 2008)

Thanks for posting the article it was a very helpful read


----------



## Séamlas (Sep 2, 2010)

it may be a good read to some but its only some ones opinion. there's only one way to test for ur dogs gameness weather it be deep or not , 
onemans rubbish is another mans treasure ! and thats from experience. some people just like to hear themselfs talk talk talk.


----------

