# bullies today vs foundation bullies



## CINCINNATIBULLIES

is there a distinction between today's bullies and foundation bullies? meaning are the foundation bullies still regarded as pitterstaffs or are they lumped together with today's monstrosities? and if there is a distinction what litters went outside the apbt gene pool. imo the foundation dogs of the re and the gotty lines are clearly pitterstaffs. even gotty himself looks like every amstaff i ever seen.



oke:


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## bahamutt99

Maybe someone should post up some pictures and we can look and talk about it? Of course, it'd be very easy to seek out extreme specimens to make a point, but hey.


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## gamer

About 10 years ago the RE dogs were so different then what is being peddled today.


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## bahamutt99

Those two photos pose an interesting comparison of just plain fat versus built that way.


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## 9361

This could get really bad.... (grabs popcorn)


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## Black Rabbit

Shes Got Heart said:


> This could get really bad.... (grabs popcorn)


(sits next to megan and shares the popcorn)


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

2nd one looks like an english bulldog to me


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## bahamutt99

Ladies, now, there's no reason this has to get ugly. Keep your pot stirrers back.


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## buzhunter

Wouldn't todays bullies be considered the foundation since the standard is yet to be established?


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

the standard has been established for several years. the problem is finding judges to judge these bully dogs to the standard. in every other registry adba, ukc, aadr, sdr, akc any of them judge and promote dogs to their standard. the abkc judges and promotes dogs well outside of their own standard. once the bully judges put forth ch and gch bully's held to the bully standard things will get better for the bully world. most bully's the public sees are fun show winners. dogs not judged to any standard, these are the shows the abkc promotes.


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## 9361

I'm still not sure what an American Bully is supposed to be.... and they aren't either considering there are now... what 3 or 4 sub divisions they had to create to allow for all the different sizes and shapes.


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

yes there are 3 classes there has been 3 different bully's from the beggining. 
1.xxl (22"and taller) 2. standard (18-22") 3. pocket (under 18")


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## bahamutt99

Its interesting to see some of the standard UKC/AKC show dogs that the bullies go back to if you skip back a few generations.









(Even Gotti wasn't as bad as some of his descendants, as was pointed out.)


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## 9361

A "few" generations? lol I think there were some poor decisions flying around... Most of those dogs you posted are too thick for my tastes.. but good looking dogs none the less.


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## gamer

exactly why I cant be convinced nothing was added to the mix.


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## mygirlmaile

CINCINNATIBULLIES said:


> yes there are 3 classes there has been 3 different bully's from the beggining.
> 1.xxl (22"and taller) 2. standard (18-22") 3. pocket (under 18")


Pocket is under 17"


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## reddoggy

Who would argue that there's nothing added? Dave Wilson admitted it, Richard Barajas questioned Gotti as soon as he started growing.... That's why he NEVER intended on breeding him until the accidental litter which came when he was like 7 years old. BTW, throwing in extremes as an example of what bullies look like today is pretty stupid. Average bully owners dont like it and dont want it. Seriously, look around! Go to a friggin bully board or even an event and you will see very little of the extremes. You can't hold an entire breed to a couple of peoples breeding programs. It's like saying that all of todays APBTs are HD prone just because a few people didnt health test. Broaden yer scope.


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## mygirlmaile

reddoggy said:


> Who would argue that there's nothing added? Dave Wilson admitted it, Richard Barajas questioned Gotti as soon as he started growing.... That's why he NEVER intended on breeding him until the accidental litter which came when he was like 7 years old. BTW, throwing in extremes as an example of what bullies look like today is pretty stupid. Average bully owners dont like it and dont want it. Seriously, look around! Go to a friggin bully board or even an event and you will see very little of the extremes. You can't hold an entire breed to a couple of peoples breeding programs. It's like saying that all of todays APBTs are HD prone just because a few people didnt health test. Broaden yer scope.


Dave Wilson has only said that its AmStaffs and APBTs. The article everyone turns to was false...ask BTK, he explained it.


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## gamer

reddoggy said:


> Who would argue that there's nothing added? Dave Wilson admitted it, Richard Barajas questioned Gotti as soon as he started growing.... That's why he NEVER intended on breeding him until the accidental litter which came when he was like 7 years old. BTW, throwing in extremes as an example of what bullies look like today is pretty stupid. Average bully owners dont like it and dont want it. Seriously, look around! Go to a friggin bully board or even an event and you will see very little of the extremes. You can't hold an entire breed to a couple of peoples breeding programs. It's like saying that all of todays APBTs are HD prone just because a few people didnt health test. Broaden yer scope.


There are many people who deny things were mixed in, actually I think you are the only one who hast told me they are pure, or I know a eli dog that is 109 pounds. I didnt think I posted an extreme, I could find better extremes. I will try to make it out to some shows and I listened to the radio show so I am listening and trying to see what the Am bully is all about. People say that Wilson never said this or that and such things like that.


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## mygirlmaile

Gamer, what you posted, that Bully was absolutely extreme and wouldnt be accepted in the REPUTABLE Bully world.

Here are some Bullies from 'today'.


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## Black Rabbit

mygirlmaile said:


> Gamer, what you posted, that Bully was absolutely extreme and wouldnt be accepted in the REPUTABLE Bully world.
> 
> Here are some Bullies from 'today'.


:goodpost: I agree The second pic OMG  Is he the one you posted before in the other thread? He's gorgeous


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## mygirlmaile

kg420 said:


> :goodpost: I agree The second pic OMG  Is he the one you posted before in the other thread? He's gorgeous


Thats Ooh Rah. Yes, I post him everytime. LOL. I love him. Hes my puppy daddy...as soon as my puppy is born.


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## Black Rabbit

mygirlmaile said:


> Thats Ooh Rah. Yes, I post him everytime. LOL. I love him. Hes my puppy daddy...as soon as my puppy is born.


Oh snap your getting an Ooh Rah pup :clap: :clap: lucky lucky.
When is the litter due? How exciting :woof::woof:


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## mygirlmaile

kg420 said:


> Oh snap your getting an Ooh Rah pup :clap: :clap: lucky lucky.
> When is the litter due? How exciting :woof::woof:


1st pick Female. 

We should know in a few days if the female took...and Im SO excited. Ive decided her paper name will be Ooh La La and her call name will be La La.


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## buzhunter

CINCINNATIBULLIES said:


> the standard has been established for several years. the problem is finding judges to judge these bully dogs to the standard. in every other registry adba, ukc, aadr, sdr, akc any of them judge and promote dogs to their standard. the abkc judges and promotes dogs well outside of their own standard. once the bully judges put forth ch and gch bully's held to the bully standard things will get better for the bully world. most bully's the public sees are fun show winners. dogs not judged to any standard, these are the shows the abkc promotes.


Ya, pretty much what I mean. Good post. I think the best thing for all these dogs would be for the UKC to recognize them as a breed.


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## 9361

reddoggy said:


> Who would argue that there's nothing added? Dave Wilson admitted it, Richard Barajas questioned Gotti as soon as he started growing.... That's why he NEVER intended on breeding him until the accidental litter which came when he was like 7 years old. BTW, throwing in extremes as an example of what bullies look like today is pretty stupid. Average bully owners dont like it and dont want it. Seriously, look around! Go to a friggin bully board or even an event and you will see very little of the extremes. You can't hold an entire breed to a couple of peoples breeding programs. It's like saying that all of todays APBTs are HD prone just because a few people didnt health test. Broaden yer scope.


I have joined Bully boards in the past... and I saw nothing but a lot of overdone bullies being posted, along with breedings of such bullies and everyone on the forum clapping and cheering for the litters.

GP is actually the first time I've encountered responsible bully owners.


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## Black Rabbit

mygirlmaile said:


> 1st pick Female.
> 
> We should know in a few days if the female took...and Im SO excited. Ive decided her paper name will be Ooh La La and her call name will be La La.


That's awesome congrats on your new future pup. My son is only 2 and when he talks to my sister Laura he calles her auntie La La  :woof::woof: OMG I'm so excited for you :woof::woof: :clap:


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## mygirlmaile

Shes Got Heart said:


> I have joined Bully boards in the past... and I saw nothing but a lot of overdone bullies being posted, along with breedings of such bullies and everyone on the forum clapping and cheering for the litters.
> .


Thats the poo that gives the rest of us a bad rap.


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## 9361

mygirlmaile said:


> Thats the poo that gives the rest of us a bad rap.


Yeah like the guy in the ghetto with the pitt on a log chain makes us ALL look bad. One jerk ruins it for everyone.


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## mygirlmaile

Shes Got Heart said:


> Yeah like the guy in the ghetto with the pitt on a log chain makes us ALL look bad. One jerk ruins it for everyone.


Precisely. Which is unfortunate, but then there are people like the majority of members here who take the time to learn and then go forth and educate others. One at a time...slowly but surely we'll make it.


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

> Ya, pretty much what I mean. Good post. I think the best thing for all these dogs would be for the UKC to recognize them as a breed.


or if the bully people would drop their ukc papers and go abkc solely. i for one would gladly do that with my bully dogs.


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## reddoggy

I think people don't wanna because ABKC is too new for comfort.


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

discomfort causes change and action


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## buzhunter

Ya, but if the big regs don't recognize the bully, there will just be a bunch of dual reg dogs. I say the big ones gotta get on board and accept these dogs. They're not going anywhere.


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## 9361

Yeah... they need recognition from the big registries and I think they will have to REALLY get a single standard form of the breed to do that.. and have it established and proven a lot longer.


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## reddoggy

Proven?

_________________________________________


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## 9361

You have to admit that there are some dogs out there of questionable lineage... and... there isn't an exact standard.... and maybe they need to decide on one size... I can't see a registry taking on 3 sizes of the same dog as different breeds right off the bat.


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## gamer

Shes Got Heart said:


> You have to admit that there are some dogs out there of questionable lineage... and... there isn't an exact standard.... and maybe they need to decide on one size... I can't see a registry taking on 3 sizes of the same dog as different breeds right off the bat.


Well the AADR is doing well I think their standard is pretty good for the breed. Check it out ALL AMERICAN DOG REGISTRY,LLC under breeds then the Am Bully breed.


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## mygirlmaile

gamer said:


> Well the AADR is doing well I think their standard is pretty good for the breed. Check it out ALL AMERICAN DOG REGISTRY,LLC under breeds then the Am Bully breed.


Ive never heard of it. I wouldnt register my dog with them. And until I KNOW the ABKC is here to stay...my Bullies will be dual registered.


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## gamer

mygirlmaile said:


> Ive never heard of it. I wouldnt register my dog with them. And until I KNOW the ABKC is here to stay...my Bullies will be dual registered.


lol I like the AADR it was started my T.L and he is an upstanding no joke honest guy. The shows are awesome and all but they are your dogs


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## bahamutt99

I agree it would be nice to see AmBullies recognized as their own breed, but at present we'd also run into people that want to call their dogs 'pits' refusing to switch their registration. And then who would root them out? How would they be separated when many of us can't agree on which is AmBully and which is APBT? If the ABKC as parent club can run a tight ship then maybe in a few years they can pitch the breed to the UKC, and hopefully most bully folks would move over to that voluntarily. 

As for the AADR, I have always been interested in their shows. I do think that open registration is problematic, and would not breed to or buy an AADR-only dog. (Because the offspring of said dog could only be AADR from then on out.) But as a secondary registry for a UKC/ADBA dog, sure. I wouldn't mind having a triple UKC/ADBA/AADR Champion someday.


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## gamer

AADR shows are really cool. I loved them. You should go check one out.


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## bahamutt99

If they come within 3 hours of Lubbock, I will. Unfortunately, I've got this overflowing plate of UKC and ADBA events I want to hit that I already have to travel to.


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## reddoggy

Shes Got Heart said:


> . I can't see a registry taking on 3 sizes of the same dog as different breeds right off the bat.


eh, maybe not right off the bat, but it does happen. There's always different sizes and standards with in breeds. I mean, look at the American Bulldog or the poodle.... why is it so hard to accept this?


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## mygirlmaile

reddoggy said:


> eh, maybe not right off the bat, but it does happen. There's always different sizes and standards with in breeds. I mean, look at the American Bulldog or the poodle.... why is it so hard to accept this?


i agree. i think the 3 different standards excuse is old and worn out and used only by people who hate just to hate. find a real reason...good luck.


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## Bethb2007

CINCINNATIBULLIES said:


> is there a distinction between today's bullies and foundation bullies? meaning are the foundation bullies still regarded as pitterstaffs or are they lumped together with today's monstrosities? and if there is a distinction what litters went outside the apbt gene pool. imo the foundation dogs of the re and the gotty lines are clearly pitterstaffs. even gotty himself looks like every amstaff i ever seen.
> 
> oke:


I beleive when people spoke about bullies about 10 years ago, they were referring to all bull breeds in general. Now most are referring to ambullies.

I do not consider most modern american bullies to be pitterstaffs, as in my opinion, a pitter staff is still a pure bred. Whereas, many of the ambully lines have crossed in american bulldog, englicsh bulldog, olde bulldoggie, ect.

I do not think "Gotti" looks like a amstaff at all, he looks like a short bandog to me. A well bred amstaff has a straight front, no excessive lippiness, no dew laps, and tight skin. Also, if you take a wellbred amstaff down to pit weight, they look almost like a pitbull. The gotti dogs still have the extra skin and bad fronts, and not enough underjaw.


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## los44

How do you compare an old school edge dog to what looks like bane who is clearly an extreme dog, why not compare them to kamali, nemesis, manu, paco, ect ect. 

Imho I wouldn't consider old school edge pitterstaffs I think they were straight up asts, that's what I get from what I've seen. Of course there were other breeds mixed in to create the bully of today but I don't think it was done with the foundation stock. 

Gotti looks like an over done ast to me, I've spoken to people that saw him and they have said he.was about 20 inches and looked good.

As far as questionable lineage, you can say the same probably for all the bully breeds. Imho people want to know what was used to create the bully and that's never gonna happen and honestly I don't see what that would change anyways. The bully is here, it looks like its staying....if you like it you like it, if you don't you don't....if you prefer old school edge get an ast. Like everything in life it comes down to preference.


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## 9361

As far as the different sizes... I know there are 3 sizes of poodle.... 2 sizes of bull terrier... ect. But.. to begin with the poodle was long established before the other sizes were added.. I just think it's hard to come into a registry pushing for a new breed without one established size. 

And do people mix say.. pocket sizes with classic sizes? Is that acceptable? How is one size created.. by breeding the size to size? Or just getting a variation of sizes in one litter and then calling it such?


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

if a dog is registered with the aadr it can be adba registered.


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## cEElint

kg420 said:


> (sits next to megan and shares the popcorn)


i'll bring the mike n' ikes


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## bahamutt99

CINCINNATIBULLIES said:


> if a dog is registered with the aadr it can be adba registered.


Do you have something in print to back this up? First I've heard of it.


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## American_Pit13

Bethb2007 said:


> I do not think "Gotti" looks like a amstaff at all, he looks like a short bandog to me. A well bred amstaff has a straight front, no excessive lippiness, no dew laps, and tight skin. Also, if you take a wellbred amstaff down to pit weight, they look almost like a pitbull. The gotti dogs still have the extra skin and bad fronts, and not enough underjaw.


Actually many pictures of Gotti are when he is old and out of shape and made to look much more bully. Pushing out the chest and improper stacking.

Gotti actually was not a bad looking dog









VS










Properly conditioned he could have looked even better. He also had SC2 and WP1 degrees


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## reddoggy

Gotti was a fantastic looking dog, I really like the style... I wanna call him the original bully.


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## vdubbinya

american_pit13 said:


> Actually many pictures of Gotti are when he is old and out of shape and made to look much more bully. Pushing out the chest and improper stacking.
> 
> Gotti actually was not a bad looking dog
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> Properly conditioned he could have looked even better. He also had SC2 and WP1 degrees


:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## reddoggy

I kinda like the beefy Gotti. Notice in that first pic, his chest hadn't even dropped yet. I'd say he was still young, not so much conditioned. In that second pic, he's muscled up.... Can't really tell if he's tucked or not but he had the genes to be a really yoked dog.


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## OldDog

bahamutt99 said:


> I
> But as a secondary registry for a UKC/ADBA dog, sure. I wouldn't mind having a triple UKC/ADBA/AADR Champion someday.


 Never going to happen , the UKC dogs have gotten too far now phenotypically from the ADBA/AADR dogs , how many 35 lb dogs have you seen in the UKC show ring lately?

These dogs were *never* originally intended to weigh 75 lbs and up. Alligator and Tombstone were *large* dogs and weren't even close to that big , the Maloney dogs behind Tombstone ran big and were never that big.

The increasing emphasis on size and at times breeding for a specific color is moving the dogs ever further away from the original dogs.

I won the ADBA nationals with a Boyles bitch that weighed 36 lbs ( double bred Gr. Ch. Andy Capp) and have championed more Patricks dogs , Chinaman dogs , Gr.Ch Spike dogs and crosses of those bloodlines than I care to cite here , none of them would have rated a look in the UKC ring because of their size. I prefer my dogs in the 28 to 50 lb range in good condition and tend towards dogs under the 40-42 range.

As for the 'bullies' some are quite obviously crossed with something else , whether it's EB , Johnson bloodline ABs , Alapaha Blueblood Bulldogs or whatever matters not the least , quit registering them as APBTs , they aren't APBTs.

And just don't ever get me started on the 'Merle' dogs , but that's a different discussion for a different time.

OldDog1


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## gamer

OldDog said:


> Never going to happen , the UKC dogs have gotten too far now phenotypically from the ADBA/AADR dogs , how many 35 lb dogs have you seen in the UKC show ring lately?
> 
> These dogs were *never* originally intended to weigh 75 lbs and up. Alligator and Tombstone were *large* dogs and weren't even close to that big , the Maloney dogs behind Tombstone ran big and were never that big.
> 
> The increasing emphasis on size and at times breeding for a specific color is moving the dogs ever further away from the original dogs.
> 
> I won the ADBA nationals with a Boyles bitch that weighed 36 lbs ( double bred Gr. Ch. Andy Capp) and have championed more Patricks dogs , Chinaman dogs , Gr.Ch Spike dogs and crosses of those bloodlines than I care to cite here , none of them would have rated a look in the UKC ring because of their size. I prefer my dogs in the 28 to 50 lb range in good condition and tend towards dogs under the 40-42 range.
> 
> As for the 'bullies' some are quite obviously crossed with something else , whether it's EB , Johnson bloodline ABs , Alapaha Blueblood Bulldogs or whatever matters not the least , quit registering them as APBTs , they aren't APBTs.
> 
> And just don't ever get me started on the 'Merle' dogs , but that's a different discussion for a different time.
> 
> OldDog1


Welcome to the forums OD1 :roll:


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## American_Pit13

reddoggy said:


> I kinda like the beefy Gotti. Notice in that first pic, his chest hadn't even dropped yet. I'd say he was still young, not so much conditioned. In that second pic, he's muscled up.... Can't really tell if he's tucked or not but he had the genes to be a really yoked dog.


The pulling back of the neck and the feet pointing in is pushing out the chest giving it a more prominent look. You could do the same thing with him in the first pic if he was being improperly held rather than naturally standing.

The second pic he is fat so of course he looks more bulky however there is no actual change in his structure.


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## Teekospits

you all right! the bully breed gone keep forming and changing until they set a standard of what the breed suppose to beed. just as they did with the apbt,staff, staffie bull, and the bull terrier. i like the bullie breed but it changing so fast and in the wrong way if it would have stay as the size of grch throwin knuckle and grch noturious jaun gotti and Remy matin the it would have been find. i Have a girl from the razoredge line built just like throwin Knuckles but body mass smaller. the pocket pits shouldnt have been accepted what i think. The pocket pit going to do just as the rest also keep gettin small until you get teacups pocket pit, lol... just playing but these just need to do something bout this as fast as they can cause the ambully world is getting out of controll. i seen a piture of a ambully that was so short is chest touch the ground. he was standing in grass or i think standing he was so short. i me it was crazy, if i find the kennel that own him ill post it for yah'll...


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## ibeffudled

Teekospits said:


> you all right! the bully breed gone keep forming and changing until they set a standard of what the breed suppose to beed. just as they did with the apbt,staff, staffie bull, and the bull terrier. i like the bullie breed but it changing so fast and in the wrong way if it would have stay as the size of grch throwin knuckle and grch noturious jaun gotti and Remy matin the it would have been find. i Have a girl from the razoredge line built just like throwin Knuckles but body mass smaller. the pocket pits shouldnt have been accepted what i think. The pocket pit going to do just as the rest also keep gettin small until you get teacups pocket pit, lol... just playing but these just need to do something bout this as fast as they can cause the ambully world is getting out of controll. i seen a piture of a ambully that was so short is chest touch the ground. he was standing in grass or i think standing he was so short. i me it was crazy, if i find the kennel that own him ill post it for yah'll...


i wouldnt doubt someone will make a t-cup bully, with a head twice the size of the body..

little dogs are the definition of annoying


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## ibeffudled

american_pit13 said:


> Actually many pictures of Gotti are when he is old and out of shape and made to look much more bully. Pushing out the chest and improper stacking.
> 
> Gotti actually was not a bad looking dog
> 
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> VS
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> 
> Properly conditioned he could have looked even better. He also had SC2 and WP1 degrees


that dog looks great, i dont see how you get little dogs that are half that height and his same weight out of his lines, he also looks a lot older in the 2nd pic


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## gamer

ibeffudled said:


> i wouldnt doubt someone will make a t-cup bully, with a head twice the size of the body..
> 
> little dogs are the definition of annoying


already been done 
Pocket Bully, Miniature Bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogge Puppies, English Bulldogs, Old English Bulldog, English Bulldog, Bulldog Puppies for Sale
http://www.bluenosepitz.com/images/HP/HP-1.jpg


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## fishinrob

I believe somewhere after him the mixes came in. That's why dogs further on up become shorter. That dogs in my pups 6th gen and so is RE Purple rose of Cairo. Those were piterstaffs I believe. My pups ped is almost all Amstaff blood. White Rock, Gaff-Sierra blood. People are getting 3,000 for mutants, so you can't blame them for going that route. Just wish they weren't registered as pitts is all.


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## Teekospits

i dont know wha to say bout the bully world but its amazing how one or two dog are making the breed change and it never gone stop. long as you as many of the same breed to play with it alway gone change. Just think about it you have 4 different terrier and incuding the ambully make five. long as you crossing with those five it still would be pure as kennels clubs see it. but you come up with a new characterisic look, athletic or non-athletic, loyal, prided and eager to pleaser there master, you have a new breed from the same breed group. but no matter who you look at it like a weight lifter. the mucsler and well define body shape man will win. so this is the case of the bully world. dave wilson begin it Toney more notice it carry it out and remy martin bloodine is delivering it. dont belive everything you here do research. Start with GRCH Throwin Knuckle,Notorious Jaun Gotti and Low Rider jack Remy Martin until you see Muglestones Pits. Im not a big fan of the bully but its amazing to see how it evolves.


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## American_Pit13

Teekospits said:


> long as you as many of the same breed to play with it alway gone change. Just think about it you have 4 different terrier and incuding the ambully make five. long as you crossing with those five it still would be pure as kennels clubs see it. but you come up with a new characterisic look, athletic or non-athletic, loyal, prided and eager to pleaser there master, you have a new breed from the same breed group..


You can't cross any of those other than the Amstaff/APBT and have something the registries will register as pure unless you are falsifying papers.

The American Bully Started as APBT/AmStaffs. When other breeds where mixed in they where no longer pure bred APBT and later became the American Bully.

That is the reason they got such a look change.

The Amstaff is and APBT, Well and AKC version of it. other breeds have never been used in the Amstaff ( some will debate that).

You mix together any of the other 4-5 breeds you have a mutt. No registry excepts Bull Terrier/Staffordshire or AmStaff/Bull Terrier or any of those mixes as they are ALL separate breeds.


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## GTR

A dog's thickness does not determine his breed. A dog's breeding determines the breed. 

APBT's can be thick dogs. There are plenty of game stock dogs that are thick as hell and plenty of bully-bred dogs that don't quite hit that "bully" look, but that doesn't make them an APBT, just makes them a poor representation of the respective breed.


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## ibeffudled

gamer said:


> already been done
> Pocket Bully, Miniature Bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogge Puppies, English Bulldogs, Old English Bulldog, English Bulldog, Bulldog Puppies for Sale
> http://www.bluenosepitz.com/images/HP/HP-1.jpg


so they bred a pug with a french bulldog? seriously i was joking til i seen that wtf


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## Teekospits

Yea but if the mix among the five create such an impact it will do as the bully breed make another registery that breed that has been created, just as the ambully done. And the Ukc is now allowing to registered mix breed. i guess to make every dog and owner feel there family pet could be apart of something in life and that no dogs should be left out. Im not saying you wrong about mixing the 4 out of 5 to be mutts. but everything changes when a person constanstly changing a breed.


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