# Taste of the Wild?



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

Does anyone feed this food? I am going to be starting on the Sierra Mountain formula (lamb) next week. Right now I am feeding Acana Lamb/ Oats because mine has a few allergies. Chicken, Corn, wheat and soy. He has been doing so well on the Acana its just the cost im having a hard time with. It costs me $79 after taxes for a 28lb bag. The small store I can get TOTW from sells a 30lb bag for $68 after taxes. They do not and cannot get Acana in. Both foods have the same ingredients pretty much. The Acana has oats and I like the fact TOTW is grain free. 

How have your dogs done on this food? Ive looked into a few others such as California Naturals Grain free and Earthborn Holistic and neither can be purchased here. He has a few health conditions and he has a sensitive gut which makes it hard to pick a good food. 

He has Pannus in both eyes, Autoimmune Thyroiditis (hes on soloxine) and allergies which gives him lots of skin infections. Hes on Fish oil, veterinary quality joint supplement as he has hip issues and vitamin e


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Buddy16 said:


> Does anyone feed this food? I am going to be starting on the Sierra Mountain formula (lamb) next week. Right now I am feeding Acana Lamb/ Oats because mine has a few allergies. Chicken, Corn, wheat and soy. He has been doing so well on the Acana its just the cost im having a hard time with. It costs me $79 after taxes for a 28lb bag. The small store I can get TOTW from sells a 30lb bag for $68 after taxes. They do not and cannot get Acana in. Both foods have the same ingredients pretty much. The Acana has oats and I like the fact TOTW is grain free.
> 
> How have your dogs done on this food? Ive looked into a few others such as California Naturals Grain free and Earthborn Holistic and neither can be purchased here. He has a few health conditions and he has a sensitive gut which makes it hard to pick a good food.
> 
> He has Pannus in both eyes, Autoimmune Thyroiditis (hes on soloxine) and allergies which gives him lots of skin infections. Hes on Fish oil, veterinary quality joint supplement as he has hip issues and vitamin e


MrChewy.com has Acana Regions in the $60 - $73 dollar range with free shipping, typically 2 - 3 business days from order to door step... For Lamb and Apples, larger bag is $65.

TOTW is popular but is complete garbage, owned by diamond and same quality as anything under the companies belt.. Only difference is less/no grains and more cheap and poor quality meats..

If your dog has had allergies, going to TOTW will bring back the allergy issues regardless of what is or isn't in it due to the lack of quality and extremely poor consistency.. Been to the SC plant, i know what the company produces from within.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> MrChewy.com has Acana Regions in the $60 - $73 dollar range with free shipping, typically 2 - 3 business days from order to door step... For Lamb and Apples, larger bag is $65.
> 
> TOTW is popular but is complete garbage, owned by diamond and same quality as anything under the companies belt.. Only difference is less/no grains and more cheap and poor quality meats..
> 
> If your dog has had allergies, going to TOTW will bring back the allergy issues regardless of what is or isn't in it due to the lack of quality and extremely poor consistency.. Been to the SC plant, i know what the company produces from within.


Mr Chewy doesnt ship to Canada. May I ask why TOTW is complete garbage? Acana and TOTW uses Lamb and Lamb meal. If hes not allergic to lamb, then how will the allergy issues come back?

TOTW was recommended to me by a good friend who feeds the Salmon formula and has had great results from it.


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Buddy16 said:


> Mr Chewy doesnt ship to Canada. May I ask why TOTW is complete garbage? Acana and TOTW uses Lamb and Lamb meal. If hes not allergic to lamb, then how will the allergy issues come back?
> 
> TOTW was recommended to me by a good friend who feeds the Salmon formula and has had great results from it.


It has to do with quality. Pedigree is not the same quality of ingredients as, say Instinct. The quality of meat, veggies, etc are far cheaper to reflect the cheap price tag to go along with it.. Of course, this isn't going into the marketing, distribution and retail mark ups either..

TOTW sells $38 per 30 pound bag here locally, partially due to being a Diamond factory in the state and partially because the cost of distribution is less than else where. However, with that $38 a bag the two places that sell it in town have similar retail mark ups of $8 per bag. I would know because i used to work in dog feed distribution.

Diamond uses the same ingredients in all their feeds under the company.. Which includes Canidae, Costco, Solid Gold, Kirkland, TOTW, Chicken Soup, 4health, Nutragold.. Natural Balance is also made through Diamonds own factories through partnership vs Diamond owning the company.

This is a wide range of pricing however the source of ingredients is all the same.

There are also plenty of loop holes in the dog feed industry, an ingredient such as "Chicken" doesn't actually have to be chicken meat to quality.. A company can use some parts of the chicken and spray on flavoring of chicken and still list the ingredient as such.. Sometimes slightly more honest will be "natural flavoring" which can be something of organic flavoring or it could be meat flavoring.. Which Diamond has used before, factory is absolutely disgusting and the care within their factories reflects the amount of recalls they have yearly.. And that is just what gets to public, i can count more on one hand how many times they should have issued a recall and did not.

I've seen plenty of cases where people have feed TOTW from just a few weeks to 5 years and develop the same problems as "cheaper" feeds..Ingredient specific allergies, seasonal allergies, rashes, dry skin, digestive problems, kidney problems, dull coat, less active, etc.

Aside from all of this, why not order online Acana and stick with the better option your having success with now? At $65, cheaper than TOTW and Champion Foods is a far more reputable company producing some of the best consistency and quality in the kibble industry.


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Buddy16 said:


> Does anyone feed this food? I am going to be starting on the Sierra Mountain formula (lamb) next week. Right now I am feeding Acana Lamb/ Oats because mine has a few allergies. Chicken, Corn, wheat and soy. He has been doing so well on the Acana its just the cost im having a hard time with. It costs me $79 after taxes for a 28lb bag. The small store I can get TOTW from sells a 30lb bag for $68 after taxes. They do not and cannot get Acana in. Both foods have the same ingredients pretty much. The Acana has oats and I like the fact TOTW is grain free.
> 
> How have your dogs done on this food? Ive looked into a few others such as California Naturals Grain free and Earthborn Holistic and neither can be purchased here. He has a few health conditions and he has a sensitive gut which makes it hard to pick a good food.
> 
> He has Pannus in both eyes, Autoimmune Thyroiditis (hes on soloxine) and allergies which gives him lots of skin infections. Hes on Fish oil, veterinary quality joint supplement as he has hip issues and vitamin e


Ever thought to try a raw diet? A lot of dogs who have allergies to processed chicken in kibble are absolutely fine when fed raw chicken. Kibble regardless of quality did nothing for my dog and her allergies .......it's amazing what raw can do for a dog suffering certain health issues. TOTW which is made by diamond isn't that great of a food given all the recalls its had over the years. However , I'd rather see people feed TOTW instead of crappy Iams or beneful


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

i recently switch my boy from TotW high prairie to Acana regional grain free the chicken/turkey one. and even my local pet store had it in the low 65 range. that sux that mrchewy wont ship to canada cuz i was gunna get my next bag there for 56.99. 

but my reason for the switch is like KM was saying, low quality ingredients. i noticed that when i brought him home from the shelter and got him off the crap they were feeding him i saw a huge improvement using TotW, but now 8 months in, his coat and skin have gone down hill. i am hoping that i will see the quality that i am looking for with Acana.


----------



## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

also thinking about switching from TOTW high sierra to Acana ranchland formula. i'm somewhat hesitant to mess around with his diet because his gut is so sensitive.
raw is my ideal... still thinking.


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

JoKealoha said:


> also thinking about switching from TOTW high sierra to Acana ranchland formula. i'm somewhat hesitant to mess around with his diet because his gut is so sensitive.
> raw is my ideal... still thinking.


If he is this "sensitive" (i put in quotations since that is a broad assessment) your best bet is to either switch to a more appropriate feed OR just go to raw.

He may be doing well right now on TOTW however i can bet you my bottom dollar it will change down the road, and it doesn't have to take as long as you think for a noticeable change.

My girlfriends mom has a what is believed to be a Bulldog mix, its a mutt rescue dog and shes roughly 3 years old or so.

Her mom upon getting her was feeding pedigree (or Iams, can't recall which) for about the first year or so, despite my warnings of quality and educating her on feed. After the year or so mark, the inevitable happens.. Poor flaky skin, allergies extreme seasonal allergies, very poor stool and towards the end near lethargic.

Well, despite my advice she went to TOTW. Shes been on TOTW for i'd say nearly a year and a half or so, the improvements were night and day from the beginning. Coat shiny, health appeared to be in order and energy/playfulness back to how she was when she got her.

Wellll.. Guess what is starting to happen again? Yep, you guessed it.. Same problems back and in full swing.

She has now asked for my advice and is going to try Instinct. Cheaper than the Champion lines there locally and doesn't want to feed raw.

I can also share at least 8 other similar stories with various popular feeds people give to their animals that are .. Most of which are people i've assisted with their animals.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

Okay, I have done some thinking. I have decided to stay with Acana. 

28lbs of Acana Lamb/Apple- $68.99 before taxes. $77.95 after taxes
30lbs of Taste of the Wild- $60.99 before taxes. $68.91 after taxes

Im really only saving $9.04 if I switch. Thats not factoring the gas it would take to make the 40 minute round trip to get the food. My next question. Is Acana a good quality food? Ive heard nothing but positive things about it. 

He was fed raw for 1.5 years a while back. He did wonderfully on the diet, then he started to have issues with it. Since chicken is the base of my diet since its the cheapest and I suspect a chicken allergy raw isnt doable. I also do not feel comfortable feeding bones at this time because towards the end of feeding raw the last time he stopped digesting ALL bone. It would be crapped out the other end the same way it went in. I guess what I could do is feed half raw boneless turkey and half kibble? Do the kibble at night. 

Which brings me to my next question. Im not to happy about the grains in the formula I am feeding now. Heres the ingredients list

Acana lamb/Oats
Lamb meal, deboned lamb, steel-cut oats, peas, whole apples, whole potato, sunflower oil, oat flakes, lamb liver, sun-cured alfalfa, whole pears, algae meal (source of DHA, EPA), pea fiber, sweet potato, pumpkin, butternut squash, parsnips, carrots, spinach, cranberries, blueberries, kelp, chicory root, juniper berries, angelica root, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, lavender, rosemary.

Since I suspect an allergy to chicken, would he react to duck as well? I ask because I want to try the Acana Grasslands formula because its grain free....I see it has more meat in it as well?

Acana Grasslands
Deboned lamb, lamb meal, duck meal, whiteﬁsh meal*, whole peas, red lentils, ﬁeld beans, whole potato, deboned duck, whole eggs, deboned walleye, duck fat, herring oil, lamb liver, herring meal, sun-cured alfalfa, pea ﬁbre, whole apples, whole pears, sweet potato, pumpkin, butternut squash, parsnips, carrots, spinach, cranberries, blueberries, kelp, chicory root, juniper berries, angelica root, marigold ﬂowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, lavender, rosemary.

Im going to rip my hair out lol


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Buddy16 said:


> Okay, I have done some thinking. I have decided to stay with Acana.
> 
> 28lbs of Acana Lamb/Apple- $68.99 before taxes. $77.95 after taxes
> 30lbs of Taste of the Wild- $60.99 before taxes. $68.91 after taxes
> ...


Acana has two formulas, their regular grain formulas and their newer Acana Regionals.. Which is a slight step down from Orijen in terms of meat content.

Both Acana products are of excellent quality, however with the regular Acana having grains, isn't something i recommend unless someone is on a budget as regular Acana can be had for around $45 - $50 with free shipping online depending on the meat formula.. Which for the quality, is a steal.. But pay for that steal with the inclusion of grains.

Just because your dog has reacted to Chicken in the past, doesn't mean he will continue to do so under a higher quality Chicken product. However, regardless of the Chicken issue no, just because Chicken allergy symptoms are there doesn't mean the same reaction will be had to lamb, beef, duck, venison, deer, kangaroo, etc.

The Grasslands formula under Acana is one of their best, in fact some have argued that it should just be part of the Orijen line however either way, same quality goes into the bag.

I would recommend the latter, dogs don't need grains thus limiting or completely reducing the intake is best suited.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Acana has two formulas, their regular grain formulas and their newer Acana Regionals.. Which is a slight step down from Orijen in terms of meat content.
> 
> Both Acana products are of excellent quality, however with the regular Acana having grains, isn't something i recommend unless someone is on a budget as regular Acana can be had for around $45 - $50 with free shipping online depending on the meat formula.. Which for the quality, is a steal.. But pay for that steal with the inclusion of grains.
> 
> ...


Okay, the Grasslands formula is $2 more expensive then what I am feeding now. He was doing so well, was barely itching, then all of a sudden the itching started again. The only thing I have done differently was upped his dose of fish oil from 1 pill daily to 4. Could he be reacting to the fish oil and thats why all of a sudden his itching has restarted?

He is also non stop licking his paws and legs, is this a food issue...or environmental one....so frustrated, I dunno what to do :S

Maybe I need to pull him off the fish oil and just leave him on his joint supplement and soloxine? The joint supplement has the equivilent of 1 fish oil pill. He seemed to be fine with one pill a day.


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

KMs story sounds just like mine about Odin's quality goin down hill. I would go with the drain free ranchlands and keep any raw as just treats. I was advised here that u really shouldn't mix raw and kibble in a day like that. Just my 2 cents. Odin gets some raw ground beef frozen in his kong and some raw chicken from time to time.


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Buddy16 said:


> Okay, the Grasslands formula is $2 more expensive then what I am feeding now. He was doing so well, was barely itching, then all of a sudden the itching started again. The only thing I have done differently was upped his dose of fish oil from 1 pill daily to 4. Could he be reacting to the fish oil and thats why all of a sudden his itching has restarted?
> 
> He is also non stop licking his paws and legs, is this a food issue...or environmental one....so frustrated, I dunno what to do :S


The grains in the feed could be the culprit, could be environmental, could be the fish oil if it is imported from some where like China where standards are FAR less than here.. Could be fleas, could have rolled in something and irritated the skin, could have been bit some where by an insect and irritated, could be a hundred of things by that symptom and no way to know without seeing the dog.

Generally, food allergies first present themselves through bumps on the ears then spread to noticeable areas around the legs or even back. Red irritated skin can occur but usually that is more of an environmental OR seasonal issue.

Licking can be a few things, usually environmental but can also be common with food as well. I've found more often than not seasonal or environmental be the main culprit in the southeast region for these symptoms however i've also ran into a few dogs where it was the food causing the problems.

If it is the food, i would suspect it to be the grains. However, if genetically hindered.. Weaker immunity, poor digestive/sensitive stomach, etc.. It is possible that kibble may not work out for you at all.. Though rare, it happens.

Another cause for the above is when people let food based allergies lay for an extended period of time without correction, this can result in damaging their immune systems and ability to break down any kibble based diets.. Regardless of quality effectively and efficiently thus creating the same problem.

If i had to suggest anything, i'd say get him off the grains and monitor the situation. If the reaction continues on Acana Grasslands i would urge you to take him off kibble entirely and onto a full raw diet.


----------



## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

Do NOT buy ToTW, I almost made the exact same mistake. Just get Orijen. It's less than the bag you just named and there isn't a dry food on the planet that is better. It will also last you longer per bag due to smaller serving sizes. Do not buy that other crap, they just went through ANOTHER recall.


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

NYBlueNose said:


> Do NOT buy ToTW, I almost made the exact same mistake. Just get Orijen. It's less than the bag you just named and there isn't a dry food on the planet that is better. It will also last you longer per bag due to smaller serving sizes. Do not buy that other crap, they just went through ANOTHER recall.


Acana is made by the same company that make Orijen. It is a perfectly acceptable food and everywhere I have seen it is slightly cheaper than Orijen with a lower protien percentage which is good for pet dogs like mine


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

NYBlueNose said:


> Do NOT buy ToTW, I almost made the exact same mistake. Just get Orijen. It's less than the bag you just named and there isn't a dry food on the planet that is better. It will also last you longer per bag due to smaller serving sizes. Do not buy that other crap, they just went through ANOTHER recall.


Acana is made by Orijen, same quality ingredients but less meat content, essentially.

Though Orijen i would recommend above Acana simply because the meat content is rich and more so biologically appropriate than Acana for that reason. Nothing wrong with Acana, mind you, however what Orijen offers justifies the price.

I personally feed Orijen Regional Red with an occasional Six Fish bag, back on it from a break and was feeding Instinct.. During the fall and first part of the year mostly raw, then back on dry.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> The grains in the feed could be the culprit, could be environmental, could be the fish oil if it is imported from some where like China where standards are FAR less than here.. Could be fleas, could have rolled in something and irritated the skin, could have been bit some where by an insect and irritated, could be a hundred of things by that symptom and no way to know without seeing the dog.
> 
> Generally, food allergies first present themselves through bumps on the ears then spread to noticeable areas around the legs or even back. Red irritated skin can occur but usually that is more of an environmental OR seasonal issue.
> 
> ...


Heres a little history. He was having reoccurant staph infections on his skin. I got his thyroid ran and it was low so hes on meds. He gets a lot of rashes. He itches his sides, head, ears, face, back, top of his tail...everything. His skin also gets oily really fast. He seems to be able to fight these staph infections without the use of antibiotics now. This has been an ongoing battle. Heres a pic of what his infections look like. Little hard peas under the skin basically









Before I could do raw I need a couple months to start eating the food in my 10 cubic foot freezer. But, he would go on antibiotics it would clear up and boom it would be back 3 days after I stopped the antibiotics. Yes, I used them all up. Ranged anywhere from 2 weeks to a full 4 week course.

His poops are fine, firm and small. He doesnt itch his anus at all. When I scratch anywhere under his chest area his starts kicking his leg. His coat is glossy. So I really do not know what the heck is wrong with him. Vets say food, some say environmental some say who knows. His brother, has the same issues pretty much. He doesnt have fleas, that I know for sure. Hes on Revolution.

You can see his coat looks great









He gets 1 cup of Acana in the morning, .5mg of Soloxine for his thyroid, 100IU vitamin E, 1 teaspoon of his Osteo3, 2 tablespoon of aloe vera juice and 1 fish oil pill. In the evening he gets 2 fish oil pills, 1 teaspoon of his Osteo3, .5mg of soloxine and 2 table spoons of aloe vera juice.

2 teaspoons of his Osteo3 contains the equivilent of 1 fish oil pill.

Also, if its of any use he poops about 3-4 times a day, all are normal poops


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I would need some time to think about everything and narrow it down for what i believe could be going on, however i can tell you i wouldn't personally feed that dog. I don't mean it offensively however i have no use for an animal of no use or one that constantly battles year in year out of illness.. Again, no use.

I can also tell you i'm a firm believer in keeping things natural, i'm not a fan of Revolution nor would i suggest to anyone to ".5mg of Soloxine for his thyroid, 100IU vitamin E, 1 teaspoon of his Osteo3, 2 tablespoon of aloe vera juice and 1 fish oil pill. In the evening he gets 2 fish oil pills, 1 teaspoon of his Osteo3, .5mg of soloxine and 2 table spoons of aloe vera juice." put that much into a dog day in day out.. It is bound to cause new problems long term. Short term under extreme cases, perhaps.

The fact another pup off the same litter is having the same issues points to genetic foundation, did the sire or dam have any symptoms that you are aware of? What about further back in the generations? Or do you know the pedigree at all? I ask because genetics have a funny way of resurfacing old problematic issues.. Whether medical, mental or physical.

I won't tell you to get rid of your dog however if you have gone to several vets and all give similar input above and it is something possibly life term, you do eventually need to question what quality of life this dog is going to have.. Love, proper nutrition is only part of keeping.. Far more to consider in the grand scheme of things, particularly in a young dog that already has a background of problems.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> I would need some time to think about everything and narrow it down for what i believe could be going on, however i can tell you i wouldn't personally feed that dog. I don't mean it offensively however i have no use for an animal of no use or one that constantly battles year in year out of illness.. Again, no use.
> 
> I can also tell you i'm a firm believer in keeping things natural, i'm not a fan of Revolution nor would i suggest to anyone to ".5mg of Soloxine for his thyroid, 100IU vitamin E, 1 teaspoon of his Osteo3, 2 tablespoon of aloe vera juice and 1 fish oil pill. In the evening he gets 2 fish oil pills, 1 teaspoon of his Osteo3, .5mg of soloxine and 2 table spoons of aloe vera juice." put that much into a dog day in day out.. It is bound to cause new problems long term. Short term under extreme cases, perhaps.
> 
> ...


I do not believe of starving/disposing a dog simply because it has health problems. Would you kill your mother if she had a life long medical condition? I would certainly hope not. He may not be of use to you but he is to me, he is my family member. I dont know the history of the parents it was a farm litter. Both parents were living outside. My Rottweiler I had to retire because he had medical problems from arthritis to cancer....he was of "no use" to me but he lived with me until the day he died.

Also, I wanted to put him down a couple months back and no vet would do so. They all wanted to make him live in their clinic and try stuff on him. But thats beside the point. He NEEDS thyroid medication. He has a low thyroid. His also had bad hips and needs the joint meds. The other stuff I am willing to go without.

What is it exactly that your dogs do for you?


----------



## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Acana has two formulas, their regular grain formulas and their newer Acana Regionals.. Which is a slight step down from Orijen in terms of meat content.
> 
> Both Acana products are of excellent quality, however with the regular Acana having grains, isn't something i recommend unless someone is on a budget as regular Acana can be had for around $45 - $50 with free shipping online depending on the meat formula.. Which for the quality, is a steal.. But pay for that steal with the inclusion of grains.
> 
> ...





Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> KMs story sounds just like mine about Odin's quality goin down hill. I would go with the drain free ranchlands and keep any raw as just treats. I was advised here that u really shouldn't mix raw and kibble in a day like that. Just my 2 cents. Odin gets some raw ground beef frozen in his kong and some raw chicken from time to time.


same here.
i may go with ranchlands or the lamb and apple formula because i'm not sure about egg ingredient.


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Buddy16 said:


> I do not believe of starving/disposing a dog simply because it has health problems. Would you kill your mother if she had a life long medical condition? I would certainly hope not. He may not be of use to you but he is to me, he is my family member. I dont know the history of the parents it was a farm litter. Both parents were living outside. My Rottweiler I had to retire because he had medical problems from arthritis to cancer....he was of "no use" to me but he lived with me until the day he died.
> 
> Also, I wanted to put him down a couple months back and no vet would do so. They all wanted to make him live in their clinic and try stuff on him. But thats beside the point. He NEEDS thyroid medication. He has a low thyroid. His also had bad hips and needs the joint meds. The other stuff I am willing to go without.
> 
> What is it exactly that your dogs do for you?


I think what KM was getting at is a sensative subject. U talk about putting ur mom down if she had a life long medical condition. No I would hope no one would do that but if she got in a car wreck and got her brain knocked around where she would only have basic bodily functions. Then quality of life is jepordized, unfortunately in the dog world it takes far less to qualify for poor quality of life.

I hope that came out right.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> I think what KM was getting at is a sensative subject. U talk about putting ur mom down if she had a life long medical condition. No I would hope no one would do that but if she got in a car wreck and got her brain knocked around where she would only have basic bodily functions. Then quality of life is jepordized, unfortunately in the dog world it takes far less to qualify for poor quality of life.
> 
> I hope that came out right.


I dont view my dog as a tool. My dog is a companion. Hes my family. I dont shove my dog in a kennel all day, and when hes to old or sick to serve me or entertain me I do not just kill him.

My dog has brain function. In fact, hes sitting there at the moment wagging his tail at me to go for a walk.


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Buddy16 said:


> I dont view my dog as a tool. My dog is a companion. Hes my family. I dont shove my dog in a kennel all day, and when hes to old or sick to serve me or entertain me I do not just kill him.
> 
> My dog has brain function. In fact, hes sitting there at the moment wagging his tail at me to go for a walk.


Ok, let's scroll back. I think things got elevated to quick here. I personally am the same as u, my boy is my pet. Plain and simple. He is kenneled while I am work for his protection and for the protection of my things (chewing). His back legs are terrible straight and I noticed this weekend cow-hocked. Right now at 19 months old, they don't seem to bother him. However I am realistic that in the future something will have to be done to make him more comfortable. Not sure what and when but I will deal with it then. That's the only point I was trying to make.

I do not know KM personally, but I know him enough to know that he cares for his dogs and they work for him in return.


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Buddy16 said:


> I dont view my dog as a tool. My dog is a companion. Hes my family. I dont shove my dog in a kennel all day, and when hes to old or sick to serve me or entertain me I do not just kill him.
> 
> My dog has brain function. In fact, hes sitting there at the moment wagging his tail at me to go for a walk.


I said what i said due to the fact i believe it is something to consider long term, whether you like it or don't it is an honest consideration and i would do so with anyone. Even just as a family pet, what kind of quality of life will he have for the remaining years he has? To be that young with already that many problems, it can be risky. Sure, some believe its worth it and some don't.. However i've seen too often dogs that should be put down because of sever health concerns but are stuck suffering on because the owners are too selfish for their own agenda. I am not suggesting this to be you, however i did feel to point out that if you have yet to consider this, it is something to realistically go over.

As to the mother comment, i do not consider human life and animal life one of the same. If a house was burning down and i had a choice to save my mother or my hounds, i would save my mother without question.

That said, i love my animals. I have respect for all forms of life on earth. However, this does not stop me from hunting to feed myself and family. This does not stop me from putting use in traditional stock of animal.

This is far off the topic and i wasn't meaning for my comment to turn into a discussion, feel free to look at similar threads on the topic for conversation or start your own thread. However i will say, i am against animals being purely shown and/or purely pets. I believe in the fundamental core of what has always been, we don't have all these old dog breeds for a pet or shown reasoning. We have them to perform work, specialized in the functions we instilled.

Owning a dog is not a right but a privilege, as such i believe in continuing to instill and put use of the animal as intended. I will not own herding stock without a farm or need for one, i will not own a protection/guarding animal without for filling that purpose and keeping traditionally bred animals, etc.. What i feed has an intended purpose in life other than my own companionship. They earn their keep and with that keep comes the affection any pet owner gives.

I can also say, the healthiest animals i have come across in my time thus far has been those bred for functions and abilities first, used for said instilled qualities and last but not least, family companions. Function over pet, registry and all else. Soundness and consistency follows within.. keeping instilled.

In short, this is how i believe straight from the source of creation. Purpose, far more i could discuss in detail but i will leave at that. plenty disagree with this state of mind now in days and don't feel singled out.

Not all that many people on here agree with me, although plenty understand at least generalized.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> Ok, let's scroll back. I think things got elevated to quick here. I personally am the same as u, my boy is my pet. Plain and simple. He is kenneled while I am work for his protection and for the protection of my things (chewing). His back legs are terrible straight and I noticed this weekend cow-hocked. Right now at 19 months old, they don't seem to bother him. However I am realistic that in the future something will have to be done to make him more comfortable. Not sure what and when but I will deal with it then. That's the only point I was trying to make.
> 
> I do not know KM personally, but I know him enough to know that he cares for his dogs and they work for him in return.


No, but when a dog cant work because of a broken leg (that was caused by him working) what does one do? Shoot it? My neighbour killed any dog he had that required more then a bowl of food and water he would not spend money on his dogs. I am not like that



KMdogs said:


> I said what i said due to the fact i believe it is something to consider long term, whether you like it or don't it is an honest consideration and i would do so with anyone. Even just as a family pet, what kind of quality of life will he have for the remaining years he has? To be that young with already that many problems, it can be risky. Sure, some believe its worth it and some don't.. However i've seen too often dogs that should be put down because of sever health concerns but are stuck suffering on because the owners are too selfish for their own agenda. I am not suggesting this to be you, however i did feel to point out that if you have yet to consider this, it is something to realistically go over.
> 
> As to the mother comment, i do not consider human life and animal life one of the same. If a house was burning down and i had a choice to save my mother or my hounds, i would save my mother without question.
> 
> ...


Who says I do not work my dog? My dog is for protection and hes pretty damn good at it. He is happy, its not like hes suffering? He just went to the park and leaped 6 feet for a frisbee for about 20 minutes straight. Please, if you have any insight as to what my dog is reacting to or suggestions (other then to kill him) on what to try, please do post them. I am open to just about anything


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Buddy16 said:


> Who says I do not work my dog? My dog is for protection and hes pretty damn good at it. He is happy, its not like hes suffering? He just went to the park and leaped 6 feet for a frisbee for about 20 minutes straight. Please, if you have any insight as to what my dog is reacting to or suggestions (other then to kill him) on what to try, please do post them. I am open to just about anything


You are taking things far more personally than things need to be. I have been quite helpful in nutrition and you are arguing your beliefs on what makes a dog a dog or what makes your dog happy to me when i could honestly care less what you feed. Because i raised concern and followed up by more information on how things should be according to my standard of belief and knowledge, you instantly go shutting yourself out by defending when theres no reason to defend yourself to me.

However since you did bring it up, that is a lousy way to treat an animal with known health problems, particularly in hip and joints by training them in the protection field.. ANY dog with those sorts of problems early on is useless for that type of work.

It is a sure fire way of causing more damage leading to be PTS by putting much un-needed stress on already problematic areas.

A dog barking to alert you of strangers is not a guard dog, i don't know what you consider as such however if you are remotely training your animal as such than you are doing far more damage than good.

You are also contradicting yourself by stating your dog is not a tool and a pet then turning around and saying you have a protection animal. Personally, it is insulting to those whom do feed these type animals as i so happen to be one.

Even if you have retired your dog, having him jump around like that without fixing the issue will only make the situation worse.

But hey, do what you wish. It ain't my dog and ain't my money.

I've helped you with your OP, if you have any more questions feel free to ask. Otherwise, i have only offered helpful advice that any pet owner should consider under the circumstances. Do what you wish with it, which apparently is just coming back and attempting to tell me how awful of a person i am.. Or whatever you may be trying to accomplish, either way, won't work.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> You are taking things far more personally than things need to be. I have been quite helpful in nutrition and you are arguing your beliefs on what makes a dog a dog or what makes your dog happy to me when i could honestly care less what you feed. Because i raised concern and followed up by more information on how things should be according to my standard of belief and knowledge, you instantly go shutting yourself out by defending when theres no reason to defend yourself to me.
> 
> However since you did bring it up, that is a lousy way to treat an animal with known health problems, particularly in hip and joints by training them in the protection field.. ANY dog with those sorts of problems early on is useless for that type of work.
> 
> ...


I never said he was in the protection ring. Hes trained for it and he will protect me if need be. I STOPPED the work as soon as I suspected hip issues. Doesnt mean he still wont protect me. My dog is a pet first, protector second. You opened yourself up to this when you insulted me by basically implying to stop feeding this dog and let him starve to death simply because he cant serve a purpose. I will not murder my animal simply because it cannot work. Your basically saying that if your dog injures itself and can no longer hunt or do whatever you do with them that they are useless and should just be killed. What if he injured himself working day in and day out for you....im not saying working animals is a bad thing but first and foremost for me, they are pets/family. If they cant work because of health problems...then I enjoy them as a pet

You said you needed some time to think about what could be causing his issues and I am still waiting to hear about that....


----------



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Buddy16 said:


> I never said he was in the protection ring. Hes trained for it and he will protect me if need be. I STOPPED the work as soon as I suspected hip issues. Doesnt mean he still wont protect me. My dog is a pet first, protector second. You opened yourself up to this when you insulted me by basically implying to stop feeding this dog and let him starve to death simply because he cant serve a purpose. I will not murder my animal simply because it cannot work. Your basically saying that if your dog injures itself and can no longer hunt or do whatever you do with them that they are useless and should just be killed. What if he injured himself working day in and day out for you....im not saying working animals is a bad thing but first and foremost for me, they are pets/family. If they cant work because of health problems...then I enjoy them as a pet
> 
> You said you needed some time to think about what could be causing his issues and I am still waiting to hear about that....


Well why would i want to help someone who puts words in my mouth? I never said let your dog starve nor did i say i would starve a dog. I said i wouldn't feed a dog in your situation thus PTS.. Not starve. Nor did i insult you, i raised concern where concern lays for the future of your dogs life and the quality of which he may be facing.

If i had a pup or young dog injured or in condition of which couldn't be worked, i would either PTS or re-home depending upon how sever the condition was.. No, i wouldn't keep them which equals i wouldn't feed them. If i had an older dog in which has earned his keep over the years, the dog would be retired and live the rest of their lives in my home as a lap dog. Deserved it.

Happened to me before.. Had a Bulldog i rehomed, over worked and broke the dogs spirits.. Young in handling my own dogs, mistakes happen and you learn from them. At least, you should. I did.

You never said your dog was in protection ring? As in, Schutzhund? Sch is in no way, shape or form a protection dog. It is a sport, not a true test or training method of guard work.

However, you did say *Who says I do not work my dog? My dog is for protection and hes pretty damn good at it* which can only be taken one way in which i responded.

Whats causing your dogs problems is genetic, if you want me to dwittle it down to a few possibilities that will take time. You said you don't know anything about your dogs genetic past thus opens a wide range of possibilities in which i would need to crack open some of my books to refresh to give the best answer i can.

However, again.. I've done nothing but offer solid advice and you have gotten far more emotional than needed, if you want help perhaps you should calm down, sign off a while and come back with a fresh mentality. Everyone needs to do that, it is the internet. However, i won't sit here and help someone who tries to pick my words apart to something they aren't.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Well why would i want to help someone who puts words in my mouth? I never said let your dog starve nor did i say i would starve a dog. I said i wouldn't feed a dog in your situation thus PTS.. Not starve. Nor did i insult you, i raised concern where concern lays for the future of your dogs life and the quality of which he may be facing.
> 
> If i had a pup or young dog injured or in condition of which couldn't be worked, i would either PTS or re-home depending upon how sever the condition was.. No, i wouldn't keep them which equals i wouldn't feed them. If i had an older dog in which has earned his keep over the years, the dog would be retired and live the rest of their lives in my home as a lap dog. Deserved it.
> 
> ...


It was how your post came across. We clearly have different views. I read every single last word of your advice. Had I not of I never would of bothered to listen when you said to not feed TOTW. Im keeping him on Acana.

The protection dogs ive had and trained were not in the Sch ring...my dog isnt worked now, hes just being enjoyed as a family pet. Now, if someone threatened me, or harmed me...he would in a split second obey my command to bite hip issues or not

Go ahead and give me your advice, just lets please not discuss putting him down. Im not doing that right now. Maybe in the future if things get worse.

ETA- In case you didnt see my introduction thread, my current dog isnt a pitbull. Hes a Belgian Malinois with a tad bit of German Shepherd in him. Mother was pure Malinois and father was 3/4 malinois 1/4 GSD


----------



## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

I think it's pretty logical and human to take your dog personally. I certainly do. What a dog means to a person is personal. If you simply have dogs to work them...that's just how you see them and that's how the fit into your part of the world. However, if a person sees their dog as an addition to their immediate family, then it's personal. You are both now on a very, very sensitive subject, about which many people will get defensive about, whether in support or opposition. The real question at hand is regarding a current health problem that the dog has, that's it. 

Personally, I would go to a different vet if the one you have now can't give you an answer. A test for allergies, especially food allergies MUST be done immediately though because all of this could be related to that.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

NYBlueNose said:


> I think it's pretty logical and human to take your dog personally. I certainly do. What a dog means to a person is personal. If you simply have dogs to work them...that's just how you see them and that's how the fit into your part of the world. However, if a person sees their dog as an addition to their immediate family, then it's personal. You are both now on a very, very sensitive subject, about which many people will get defensive about, whether in support or opposition. The real question at hand is regarding a current health problem that the dog has, that's it.
> 
> Personally, I would go to a different vet if the one you have now can't give you an answer. A test for allergies, especially food allergies MUST be done immediately though because all of this could be related to that.


The one now was my third vet. He was the one who was willing to test his thyroid even though he didnt fit typical symptoms of a problem. It came back low, he treated it. He told me to give the meds more time to work (hes only been on them not even 2 months) and to use a light dose of steroids when needed. We got him to the point where he is at least able to fight off the infections on his skin without meds.

My vet said (and I believe as well) blood allergy testing is useless and not reliable. But, I will check into other forms of allergy testing

Honestly, I got all hostile because I got offended that someone would come on and say something like that to me. I personally dont care what one does to their dogs. Ive let it go, to each to their own. I love my dog regardless of it can work or not. If one doesnt, nothing I can do. As long as I am not told this again, that I should not "feed" my dog aka PTS then im fine


----------



## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

To be completely honest man, by NOT finding out what he's allergic to, you could inadvertently be putting him in danger. There are a million things a dog could be allergic to and if you don't know what they are, you can't protect your dog from them. Obviously it's your dog and your decision, but your solution could very well be as simple as eliminating one common food ingredient from his daily diet.


----------



## Buddy16 (Aug 29, 2012)

NYBlueNose said:


> To be completely honest man, by NOT finding out what he's allergic to, you could inadvertently be putting him in danger. There are a million things a dog could be allergic to and if you don't know what they are, you can't protect your dog from them. Obviously it's your dog and your decision, but your solution could very well be as simple as eliminating one common food ingredient from his daily diet.


I just put $1700 into him this year alone. When I get the money I will be ordering Dr Dodds Nutriscan allergy test kits. Ill do one kit end of October and the other kit a month later. That, I feel it better then nothing at all. That will test only for food allergies though


----------



## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

Well that's definitely a good start. All of this could be due to food allergies, if it is, you could very well have an easy solution to it. Good luck man.


----------

