# ADBA/UKC Working dog; considered bully?



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Diesel AKA "skinny"... 80lbs
100lb Pitbull.com

Proof that game bred dog lines straigten up scatter bred, badly bred, or mismanaged breedings.. Most of you know where I stand with whopper dogs, I think you also know that I stand firm that breeding a gamebred dog line to a pulling line or show line will only help the dogs lines. Well look at this guy..

Tell me what you think, show dog, bully, working dog, pulling dog? A lot of bully people like this dog, insisting that he is a bully; WHY? he's not a or of bully lines... Check out his lines at Pedigree. To me this is a working dog that just happens to be a pretty boy. You all are really into bullys and show dogs, thought ya'll could help out, what makes him a bully? I don't see it other than maybe "classic" bully conformation.


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## cEElint (Oct 6, 2009)

those brindle/white dogs on the site look like American Bulldog/APBT crosses.. no wonder they're so big


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

cEElint said:


> those brindle/white dogs on the site look like American Bulldog/APBT crosses.. no wonder they're so big


 King sire to Diesel.. King is all game dog,







some pics he looks almost like a scott type dog, however I know that King was a freaky big dog born from two 75lbs dogs, King is 95lbs, check the ped. Compare him to Hoaggie my 35lbs zebo dog.







Hoaggie at 25lbs 1.5yrs







Hoaggie at 35lbs 2.5yrs
King is very similar to Hoaggie, both have heavy Adams blood; just bred different.
If he was AM bulldog would this rednose come out looking as nice as he does with all the APBT qualities? I don't believe breeding an AM bulldog to a whopper dog would get you much except a bandogge.. Curious as to why most people think Diesel is bully..


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Okay so I've been looking at all the bully pics on GPB.com and I have found only a couple of dogs that are classic bully that look anything like Diesel. Should I promote this dog to Bully people? I insist he isn't however he's real close. All I know is his lineage and his attitude; he is a baby doll of a powerhouse, I'm not keen on politics only on truth, so I need help from those of you who keep up with the politcs of it; Is this dog a classic bully? Should he attempt a title or two? If so would it be unethical to breed him to Bully's, and APBT's? I don't think so but again, I am a game dog follower and have not been into politics or show dogs.


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## matthew (Sep 30, 2009)

Im definately no expert but they just look like big apbts to me. I dont think they look bully at all. They kinda remind me of my dog. Sorry I couldnt contribute anything better to the thread but my two cents nonetheless.


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> King sire to Diesel.. King is all game dog,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whopper himself was a bandogge,

What I can tell you is that Diesil is not a APBT(which is known already I'm assuming), and I don't consider King to a gamebred dog either. His dam Jurrassic/Ellis' "Nani, am I really suppose to believe this is a Patricks/Bullyson dog? A dog that from this area Moore's XL A.P.B.T. | Home of the XL Rednose apbt I say there some paper hangage that took place in that pedigree

I don't know what you would call Diesel cause there is no telling what he is mixed with, Judging by his off the wall pedigree. I wouldn't breed him to APBTs, Bullies or any breed to be honest. As far as titles goes that would be personal choice I guess


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Mcleod15 said:


> Whopper himself was a bandogge,
> 
> What I can tell you is that Diesil is not a APBT(which is known already I'm assuming), and I don't consider King to a gamebred dog either. His dam Jurrassic/Ellis' "Nani, am I really suppose to believe this is a Patricks/Bullyson dog? A dog that from this area Moore's XL A.P.B.T. | Home of the XL Rednose apbt I say there some paper hangage that took place in that pedigree
> 
> All whopper dogs are registered APBTs, despite how we may feel about it; I know all about whopper and Parkers CH Bouncer the 120lbs pit dog that was half game dog and half extinct fighting lineage of Dogue De Bouredeaux; I have posted so much on the whopper dogs it would be easier to read all posts by FH. RE/Gotti dogs are registered as APBT and BUllys, Whopper registered as APBT.. SO for the large APBT fans, the blood is already mixed.. I have seen a couple of 30lbers with whopper blood in em. King from Nani is all there, not to be mistaken for anything other than a genetic freak from a genetic freak, we know from Colby, and Stratton, if not our own experience (check out Mayday and Bingo were 75lb pit weight dogs)http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=135335 (Freaky Deeky 85lbs Bingo dog)that genetic freak large dogs show up;according to Colby these dogs were bred together then inbred to create the American Bulldog, ironic considering all Ambulldog have Adams Little Rascal as a building block and many American Bulldog people swear he was a Am Bulldog. LOL I don't agree with all the dogs being registered as APBTs however they are here. APBTs should be as game bred as possible period. If your flavor is Castillo the Norrod guys are going to clown you, I am a Jocko line dog man, I also like the little Zebo/Adams dog I have; other than that I wouldn't have an APBT I know from his mentality King is all Adams 100% fits the menatlity of the line, and conformation just a genetic freak, This is dog owned by a buddy, who wants to get into hog hunting; I don't generally promote whopper dogs, however many pulling dog have whopper of some sort. I do promote King though as a genetic freak, if anyone wants a pure APBT pushing 100lbs as he is 95lbs. I have been working with him and his dogs a little bit and Just needed to know why bully people keep calling Diesel a bully..


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## GatorMan (Feb 5, 2010)

Mayday was 58-65.5 pounds during his campaing. He was 75 lb off the chain weight and in person he was not that HUGE dog but rather heavy bone. The Camelot blood I see in that pedigree if its the same red dogs i know of theyb are bred to be low and super wide. And Whopper no matter how you look at it is not an APBT. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [35886] :: EDDINGTON'S WANNABE AWHOPPER
Or atleast I would be hard pressed to believe it. These dogs here ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [153710] :: 454 TO TEASER BREEDING are in relation to yours, and you see they consider them bullies, and despite the Whopper blood they look like APBT. What you have is a nice dog, if he can get working titles and you can secure a good stock just be honest in wht your breeding and selling if thats what you want to do. I for one am looking into bullies to work them, as I think they have great potential as working dogs that would look great also.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

GatorMan said:


> Mayday was 58-65.5 pounds during his campaing. He was 75 lb off the chain weight and in person he was not that HUGE dog but rather heavy bone. The Camelot blood I see in that pedigree if its the same red dogs i know of theyb are bred to be low and super wide. And Whopper no matter how you look at it is not an APBT. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [35886] :: EDDINGTON'S WANNABE AWHOPPER
> Or atleast I would be hard pressed to believe it. These dogs here ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [153710] :: 454 TO TEASER BREEDING are in relation to yours, and you see they consider them bullies, and despite the Whopper blood they look like APBT. What you have is a nice dog, if he can get working titles and you can secure a good stock just be honest in wht your breeding and selling if thats what you want to do. I for one am looking into bullies to work them, as I think they have great potential as working dogs that would look great also.


Thanks, I already know all about whopper, they like many other "breeds"/ lines are still registered APBT despite the fact they are not. To me if they stay registered as APBTs then large gamedogs need to be bred to those big pullers to keep them sound. Thats how they retain their PB look is being selectively washed with game dogs, and heavily inbred. I too have seen camelot dogs back in 2000; and mayday as well as Tants Yellow, My dog Hooch has some of the same ancestory as Mayday/TantsYellow, very similar Hooch was 75lbs everyday could go as lean as 60-65. I appreciate honesty as well; I wanted to get this dog up to get some bully opinion. I don't consider whopper anything but whopper,(well I once said:"whopper and giants and mammoth could all be bred together to be the American Bull Mastiff but its already been done according to colby just without the whopper and we call it AMBullDog), but I am amazed they are invading the bully line as well... Like I said I am a trainer, this dog belongs to a friend of mine, who is well aware of the whopper and where I stand; As long as people are aware that the dog is half whopper despite being bred to a pulling line or a bully line. Can do, thats a given in my book.. Thanks again for the reassurance not into the bully game, I agree with you totally that they should be working dogs..


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> (check out Mayday and Bingo were 75lb pit weight dogs) If your flavor is Castillo the Norrod guys are going to clown you, I am a Jocko line dog man, I also like the little Zebo/Adams dog I have; other than that I wouldn't have an APBT I know from his mentality King is all Adams 100% fits the menatlity of the line, and conformation just a genetic freak.


I think you need to explain yourself because you have no clue of the dogs or the people which you speak of.

Neither Mayday or Bingo was 75 lb. pit weight dogs.
Mayday was 59 lb. dog. Bingo was about 48 lb.
Did you ever see these dogs? I saw both of them and petted them.
I own 2 daughters of Bingo, Blitz and Jackel neither would go over 45 chain weight. Mayday, I was hooked into.
I also owned dogs off Deadlift and Big John and I never had a female under 65 lbs.!
Castillo and Norrod dogs are 2 different bloodlines. Neither are related.
Largest male on Ironline yard is Ch. Bobcat 2 who conditioned at 56 lb.
Very few dogs on the yard weights of 50 chain weight.

As for Zebo, Davey offer to give Zebo to us after he almost killed his baby son by almost biting his face off. He sold him to Ricky for $1,000. But you already knew all this since you too knew Davey......Ya right (/).
You need to stick to giving information about people and their dogs and not BS you think you do....


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

the sire looks like a American bull dog cross, I will have to google the Johnson in his background awefully close to Johnson bulls dogs  So he is all game dog? Meaning what exactly his parents were game tested or just from game lines I see some way back but then you go far enough into a Am staff lines and you will see same names. I dont believe it at all will have to get back to you after some research


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Why am I in the quote of post number 10 i didn't even write that??????


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah I don't know what I'm talking about, my dog Hooch's dam was Bingo she was also Crenshaw Gator who I had a chance of owning myself, killkenny kennels had some dogs of real close lines to Hooch as well as Hooch was sired by Jocko named for being trip bred Jocko with Tonka/Reboy outcross. The closest match/twin(not exactly in paperwork but in dog) to Hooch I have ever seen was Mayday and he was a 70lbs dog when I seen him, I sent him many buyers people out of NE Okla looking for a dog like Hooch all the way to ecuador. It was the old dog men that slapped me as a youngster for breeding my dog to the whopper dogs and big pullers,setting me straight, either sell the big dog to pullers or breed for game and game is small although big freak occur. Here is MAYDAY ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [560] :: SOUTHERN KENNEL'S MAYDAY as I seen him, and Lukane who you know the owner if you know Dave, LOL~ I don't throw current names around only facts; names of current dog men is just a sign of disrespect in my book as mums the word with game dogs unless they wrote a book or a blog or a spot in the journal, mention the dogs not the men, and both those dogs were 75lbs Alot of CH Yellow dogs are 75lbs and females aren't unlikely of pushing the 60lbs+

Don't Norrod and Castillo both claim OFRN??? different lines yes~ but they claim the same OFRN 
http://www.anchorchainkennels.com/
http://ironlinekennels.com.futuresite.register.com/index.html
Norrods OFRN dogs are the sht the only reason I don't own one is cause I owned Jocko lines and now the only breedable dog on my yard now is my little 30lbs Zebo/Adams dog I used to cross out my heavy inbred Jocko dogs, it would be to tempting to fk up the OFRN purity out of curiousity of seeing the extremely seperated genetics of old school blood being thrown together.

JFYI to really understand canine behavior, you have to understand canine genetics~ stickin' to it  I wrongly assume peopel know what I know, as many of you seem to know alot; so I do not put it in crayon..

Once again personal irritations to the side;  _Just curious how this dog Diesel could be considered a bully... _
I thought the same thing about the american bulldog and all the Johnson paperwork and what I found out was enough to piss off a world of people.. There are Colby dogs big 75lbs+ dogs registered Johnson APBT and Johnson AM BULLDOG~ ehh.. , proving colby right; that AMbulldogs come from inbreeding XL APBTS to get brutes.
Heres my personal favorite Jocko, it says no weight but he is clearly the size of mayday pictured at chain weight, just by comparing him to the men in the back. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [392] :: CHAVIS' JOCKO (4XW) I believe in small game dogs and bred my Jocko stuff down to 35lbs (smaller than Jacksons CH Hank)then crossed it to Zebo/Adams dog.. Had all the pups fixed and retired as I recreated the long legged bulldog http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/26690-my-recreation-barenbiter-bearbiter-bullbiter-straight-game-dogs.htmlout of straight american game dogs, but I was able to do that because I don't know what I am doing.

OH,, and heres your BIG JOHN at 75lbs chainweight
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [15905] :: CH WACCAMAW'S BIG JOHN (3XW)

THat would mean 62lbs minimum =)) pit weight still a big dog~


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Yeah I don't know what I'm talking about, my dog Hooch's dam was Bingo she was also Crenshaw Gator who I had a chance of owning myself, killkenny kennels had some dogs of real close lines to Hooch as well as Hooch was sired by Jocko named for being trip bred Jocko with Tonka/Reboy outcross. The closest match/twin(not exactly in paperwork but in dog) to Hooch I have ever seen was Mayday and he was a 70lbs dog when I seen him, I sent him many buyers people out of NE Okla looking for a dog like Hooch all the way to ecuador. It was the old dog men that slapped me as a youngster for breeding my dog to the whopper dogs and big pullers,setting me straight, either sell the big dog to pullers or breed for game and game is small although big freak occur. Here is MAYDAY ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [560] :: SOUTHERN KENNEL'S MAYDAY as I seen him, and Lukane who you know the owner if you know Dave, LOL~ I don't throw current names around only facts; names of current dog men is just a sign of disrespect in my book as mums the word with game dogs unless they wrote a book or a blog or a spot in the journal, mention the dogs not the men, and both those dogs were 75lbs Alot of CH Yellow dogs are 75lbs and females aren't unlikely of pushing the 60lbs+
> 
> Don't Norrod and Castillo both claim OFRN??? different lines yes~ but they claim the same OFRN
> anchor chain kennels
> ...


Interesting that colby said that because his son and I had a conversation and he basically said it might be able to happen getting big game dogs by breeding big dogs to big dogs but not likely, Mr B pretty much said the same thing and had a good laugh when we discussed the claims about these so called pure bred eli dogs being very large.

Big john looks no where near 75 pounds and I can take a 50 pound dog up to 75 easy if I wanted too. How can you get a bull dog from a dog that is a bulldog terrier cross? The way I see it is there was the bull dog and people took those bulldogs crossed them with terriers to get the APBT. Bull dogs have been around a long time before they started really getting them to be breeds on their own. Did that makes sense?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

gamer said:


> Interesting that colby said that because his son and I had a conversation and he basically said it might be able to happen getting big game dogs by breeding big dogs to big dogs but not likely, Mr B pretty much said the same thing and had a good laugh when we discussed the claims about these so called pure bred eli dogs being very large.
> 
> Big john looks no where near 75 pounds and I can take a 50 pound dog up to 75 easy if I wanted too. How can you get a bull dog from a dog that is a bulldog terrier cross? The way I see it is there was the bull dog and people took those bulldogs crossed them with terriers to get the APBT. Bull dogs have been around a long time before they started really getting them to be breeds on their own. Did that makes sense?


way off topic of Diesel, but in responce.

Oh yeh, makes sense, I have been in canine genetics for almost 20 years, I have proven Lewis Colby and Stratton right, the GAME gene is what is TRUE, way back when ratters to bullbiters all came from fighting game dogs, when breeding for true game the body conforms..... I have seen 50lbd dogs worked up to 70lbs I don't mean BULKING a dog up, and BIG JOHN does look like a 70lb old man in that pic.. thats chain weight and written by the people who posted the peds. What we know if we follow history left by dogmen and FLieg is that all those pure bred dogs are inbred dogs from one strain or another of game working dog, by inbreeding is how new breeds arise, ironically its also how to keep a strain pure. Lewis Colbys book mentions a new breed forming that was from breeding the brutes of each game dog litter together and inbreeding them to form a 100lbs dog. From there I started looking for colby Johnson dogs, and found a kennel in OKLA that has Johson and scott type bulldogs registered also as APBT~ I just laughed at those mongrels but it proves coblys book right.

I have seen APBTs that were pure JOCKO and weighed 27lbs out of Hardhitting Kennels, I have seen Dagger pushing 127lbs in his prime also registered APBT, I have seen terrier builds and bulldog builds, the APBT is the most diverse dog purebred dog on the planet; I call em bulldogs cause thats what they are... Is a saying that Lewis Colby had, as well as Stratton and Mr. B should agree with that statment, I did not say in anyform that you could get a large GAME dog, but a LARGE dog from GAME and GAME BRED DOGS, in which carry the strong game conformation and mental stability. I know a man in Nowata Oklahoma that tried it all you name it he did it, he had whopper dogs, and he had big game dogs bred to each other in a muddled way IMO watchdog, Jocko, REdboy, Tonka, Corvino, etc.. he had pure lil game dogs mostly ELI JR, /Midnight Cowby and other bandoggue crosses as well as Dogos and such. THOSE MONSTER ELI dogs IMO are like the Carver dogs, to hard to tell with so many ringers and stolen dogs. BUT NO I do not believe that a big dog can be GAME, I believe they can be GAME driven and have alot more intensity than the drive in other big dogs being bred but a small game dog is always what brings down the giant.

Thus the reason I fixed my line when I was done.. They are pure APBT from ADBA game and game stock dogs, bred to engage in predators such as bear, and mt lion. That lil guy Turk, is a machine, he will even turn the fight off on command with complete confidence in me. However its for me only, I may submit the paperwork and DNA testing to ADBA just for shts and giggles to see what they think but I'm not into political prestige, wanted the dog of legend.. SO I bred it..

Knowing that I am alone in my opionion that I say the old dogmen were right and the APBT is the true bulldog, I can't help from wondering why people gets these books if they are only gonna look at the pictures, 
I believe that terriers and bulldogs as we think of them came from the pit dog as they were the first working dogs off the boat, from the english to spanish, just because we have a sack full of sht and call it mcdonalds doesnt mean its not sht, know what I mean? So therefore the original game bred bulldog is not LOST it is hidden in the APBT behind that game gene.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Just because they are registered doesnt mean they are purebred you know that. paper hanging is a fun hobby for some.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

gamer said:


> Just because they are registered doesnt mean they are purebred you know that. paper hanging is a fun hobby for some.


I litterally about fell over backward :rofl: for sure....


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> Yeah I don't know what I'm talking about, my dog Hooch's dam was Bingo she was also Crenshaw Gator who I had a chance of owning myself,


Everyone had a chance at Gator when Shaw was selling him.
Jackel was off Bingo and Bliss (off Jeep and Tabby Girl sister to Tab and Rodney's dog Ch. Tramp).



Firehazard said:


> The closest match/twin(not exactly in paperwork but in dog) to Hooch I have ever seen was Mayday and he was a 70lbs dog when I seen him,,


I will repeat, Gr. Ch. Mayday's "Pit Weight" was 59. Not:
"(check out Mayday and Bingo were 75lb pit weight dogs)"
I know this as fact, I had $ down. I know!
He didn't want any of Harley. I also know who made Mayday a champion and grand champion and no it wasn't conditioned or handled by V.A....
I seen Bingo many times when he was at Steelfire Kennels with Yankee Greg and at Brian's in IL. Bingo's chain weight wasn't even 75 lbs besides his pit weight. 
*Firehazard, haven't you figured out by now how I know the things that I do?*
Many things you say I can agree with but there is also information that is wrong. Information is like water, closer to the source, fresher the water.....



Firehazard said:


> as I seen him, and Lukane who you know the owner if you know Dave, ,


I too know V.A. owner of Mayday and J.B. of STP, hell I know what STP stands for and knew the people involved.



Firehazard said:


> Don't Norrod and Castillo both claim OFRN??? different lines yes~ but they claim the same OFRN


IRONLINE KENNELS HOME OF THE WORLD FAMOUS NORROD RED DEVIL STRAIN SINCE 1969

Don't know what Art claims but yes I.K. dogs are from the *strain* of OFRN as many other bloodlines who also carry it.
All modern combat dogs for the last 50+ years has OFRN in them including Dibo.
*BTW once again that isn't Norrod website url! It is:*

*w w w. ironlinekennels .com*

BTW it is spelled "Louis Colby" not Lewis Colby.......;->


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Tx Red Dog said:


> Everyone had a chance at Gator when Shaw was selling him.
> Jackel was off Bingo and Bliss (off Jeep and Tabby Girl sister to Tab and Rodney's dog Ch. Tramp).
> 
> I will repeat, Gr. Ch. Mayday's "Pit Weight" was 59. Not:
> ...


First of all this thread is directed to find out why people a half whopper dog a bully..

The things you say sound like they have merit and I know you know what your saying however they also sound like the words of a drunk who doesn't have all his facts straight and has to re check his mental notes(I follow your posts), I know that Mayday had a pit weight over sixty during that little scuffle when the to gents couldnt decide on a weight that was even  They also argued because it was basically the same dogs going up.. You should know of whom and when I speak, that was a big deal. A dogs pit weight isnt the same every time and YES I made a mistake the only dog mentioned that was any where near 70lb at pit weight was Jocko and Lukane, weren't they pushin 66lbs?.... I should have said "pit dogs that weighed 75lbs) Actually the purest water is filtered through all the layers of sht and earth and flows from volcanic rock, I wouldn't drink any water today from its source LOL its all full of sht. :roll: all kidding aside I was gonna go get few good dogs from Xprss back in the day then he got shut down, he and I talked for a good while, all about tilted scales and dogman politics that most people don't think about. Its a small world and the reality is you and I have brushed shoulders and didn't think nothing of it.. I just showed you the pedigrees where the chain weight was 75lbs, we all know what a chain weight dog is, it aint fat.. WE all know a conditioned dog is usually 12-15lbs lighter some instances they pushed for more because of wind or bite or whatever, for advantages and all that crap, talkn with DT was very enlightened for me, as a good part of my yellow dog knowledge comes from him. Im not far off in my thinking, some people say mayday was a 60lb dog the truth is all the above, as the life of a game dog is just like a prf boxer; weight and skills vary and wind is matched against weight thrown yadaydaydyadyada. I admited I mispoken however I stand firm that those dogs were 75lbs dogs, just not pit weight. That still changes nothing exc, big boy game dogs can straighten up a pullin dog line and add drive strenght etc.. As I was told the big game dog should be pullin as well as everything else they do, and we should still breed for game, however a big game dog sold to someone with big pullers will only IMPROVE their stock... So other than I was out of context which YES misconstrues ones perception; we have nothing to argue about.. :flush:


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> First of all this thread is directed to find out why people a half whopper dog a bully..


So you want to know why people think a dog that is crossed with whopper dogs are considered a bully? Well I consider them straight mutts. No matter what breed you mix with a whopper dog its still gonna be a mutt :rofl:

What does gameness have to do with pulling? It doesnt take gameness to do WP what would you gain by throwing in a game bred dog?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Seriously... Really??? Game does not improve drive, or the sound temperment of an APBT that has not be game bred? ehh.. Large game bred dogs could have a weight title as well as others and it would clear up the blood.. Hooch could pull my 1500 85 scottdale, thats why his dad got stolen from me, showing them whopper pulling dogs up when those guys would stop by out in Nowata.. before you know there were whopper dogs coming up with jocko conformation.. your paper ringing coment hits home with me, because if you and tx are as smart as you seem then you can spot a rung dog, so I will honor your opinions because at this point anything is possible and I can think of Tudors, Carver, Eli, Boudreaux, Crenshaw, Redboy, rung dogs or dog rung with those papers rather


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Seriously... Really??? Game does not improve drive, or the sound temperment of an APBT that has not be game bred? ehh.. Large game bred dogs could have a weight title as well as others and it would clear up the blood.. Hooch could pull my 1500 85 scottdale, thats why his dad got stolen from me, showing them whopper pulling dogs up when those guys would stop by out in Nowata.. before you know there were whopper dogs coming up with jocko conformation.. your paper ringing coment hits home with me, because if you and tx are as smart as you seem then you can spot a rung dog, so I will honor your opinions because at this point anything is possible and I can think of Tudors, Carver, Eli, Boudreaux, Crenshaw, Redboy, rung dogs or dog rung with those papers rather


Drive and gameness are two way different things, you can breed two dogs with great drive and two game dogs and look at those litters and I bet ya the drive litter has produced more drivey dogs then the game dogs produced game dogs. So in short no I dont think gameness will improve drive they are different Breeding for gameness was (talking historically since game testing is a no go anymore in the US) very difficult to breed for and was a crap shoot many times. Which I know you know just putting it out there. So what I am saying is do you think all weight pull dogs are game? That is what I was saying it doesnt take a game dog to pull I mean you have this dog Toy Poodle in Weight Pulling Contest - Oddities News - redOrbit is he game 

oh BTW this is just healthy discussion I am not fighting with ya


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> First of all this thread is directed to find out why people a half whopper dog a bully..


Then why are you including other kennel names in this thread which don't have "Bully Dogs" or bloodlines which are from cross bred dogs or dogs that exceed 70 lbs. chain weight?



Firehazard said:


> The things you say sound like they have merit and I know you know what your saying however they also sound like the words of a drunk who doesn't have all his facts straight and has to re check his mental notes(I follow your posts),


No not merit, *facts,* there is a difference. Funny you say that because after reading your rambling and misinformation about others and their dogs, I thought the same thing. It might read this way to you because you have no clue of the dogs or the people you make reference too.
You been on this board less time then I have and you've spam this board with needless information hundreds of more times then me.



Firehazard said:


> I know that Mayday had a pit weight over sixty during that little scuffle when the to gents couldnt decide on a weight that was even  They also argued because it was basically the same dogs going up..


OTC is one thing, conditioned contract is another. What part don't you understand when I said "I was hooked at 59 with him?" Do you comprehend?



Firehazard said:


> You should know of whom and when I speak, that was a big deal...


Not for me and my business. This is my only interest. My only concern is information on certain subjects which you have yet to recognize. You speak of people and dogs which you don't know. Follow my responses. When I do.
Better yet, search the handle "fancier" then you get a better understanding of my knowledge of the subjects which I make references too.
Here is my last bit of information for you to understand of the information of which I type about. 
_See the picture of the dog next to my handle._ Do you recognize her? If you don't then I will inform you how to find out. She was a Grand Champion. I buried her. You can find her name in the book "World of the American Pit Bull Terriers" on page 169! *NOW YOU KNOW.* So in the future don't try to correct me of information which I know is factual.



Firehazard said:


> A dogs pit weight isnt the same every time and YES I made a mistake the only dog mentioned that was any where near 70lb at pit weight was Jocko and Lukane, weren't they pushin 66lbs?.... I should have said "pit dogs that weighed 75lbs)


I know they are never the same when the dog is showed at catch weight but a dog at catch weight doesn't change from 59 to 75 lbs.! Dog below catch weight often never changes but a pound or so when they mature.
I have been bulldoggin a long time, long before most knew what a APBT was.



Firehazard said:


> Its a small world and the reality is you and I have brushed shoulders and didn't think nothing of it.. I just showed you the pedigrees where the chain weight was 75lbs, we all know what a chain weight dog is, it aint fat.. WE all know a conditioned dog is usually 12-15lbs lighter some instances they pushed for more because of wind or bite or whatever, for advantages and all that crap, talkn with DT was very enlightened for me, as a good part of my yellow dog knowledge comes from him.),


If we have then you should know my tales when typing or responding. I doubt that we have. I've known every top dogman for the last 40 years. Chain weight depends on what condition you keep a dog in when he is not in shape. Chain weight and condintion weight depends how well your dog responds when you take a small or a large amount of weight off in a period of time.
*No, we don't know that.* I would never let a show dog get 12 to 15 lbs over his best weight. This statement alone tells how much conditioning and campaigning you have done. You haven't talk to D.T. in years because he is doing 30+ years. Yellow has been dead since the 90's. BTW I do rememeber F.C. showing Ch. Jocko and his brother Ch. Argus and neither was 66 lbs.
Hell I remember when Red Boy beat Jocko's grandfather Cable's Fang. 
J.B. of STP stated to me he had went through a hundred dogs off Mayday and last bunch he got was the last he was going to take. 
Just so happens Lukane worked out.



Firehazard said:


> Im not far off in my thinking, some people say mayday was a 60lb dog the truth is all the above, as the life of a game dog is just like a prf boxer; weight and skills vary and wind is matched against weight thrown yadaydaydyadyada. I admited I mispoken however I stand firm that those dogs were 75lbs dogs, just not pit weight. That still changes nothing exc, big boy game dogs can straighten up a pullin dog line and add drive strenght etc.. As I was told the big game dog should be pullin as well as everything else they do, and we should still breed for game, however a big game dog sold to someone with big pullers will only IMPROVE their stock... So other than I was out of context which YES misconstrues ones perception; we have nothing to argue about.. :flush:


A dog's best weight is his best weight. Even in catch weight you don't change from your best weight. The difference is who is willing to spot weight.
You don't go up in weight to take the action. You stay at your best weight and hope the advantage isn't to much for your dog to handle. You don't try to match your dog weight with another when showing at catch weight. *This is why they call it catch weight!* Not pound for pound. My encounter with Mayday was pound for pound at 59 pounds! 59 to 60 lb. was Mayday's best weight and this is the weight he was showed at. Fact son, because I was close friend with A.L. who worked and handle number 3,4 & 5 for Mayday.

Now you've changed your statement that they were 75 lb chain weight and not pit weight.
:lol: funny when people run into some one with more knowledge and corrects their information they find a way to crawfish in a different direction.
My I suggest you do the same in the future when you make reference to other people's bloodline?

I understand this thread started talking about *Bully* dogs and many of them were crossed. So true, but why bring Mayday, Lukane, Zebo, Davey Adam's dogs or Norrod and Castillo dogs into your threads? None of these bloodlines have dogs which continually produce dogs in catch weight range?
Castillo bloodline is a recently new bloodline and little is known of the quality but the others have been around 30 to 40+ years. These bloodlines except Castillo all have produced R.O.M. dogs.

Why not just dissect the "Bully Bloodlines" and not bring in the rest because it only adds confusion to your position.:hammer:


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Firehazard,
It appears I will have to be very direct with you and more so then I want too on an open forum.

Gameness is drive. Prey drive is what gameness is all about. Dogs never fought for survival, they fought to win and conquer. To dominate.
Their prey was the other dog not a weight pull cart.
Gameness is showed when a dog is tired, hurt and frustrated.
A cart doesn't fight back, it doesn't give a dog a reason to quit. 
Breeding game stock in to pull stock will not improve the ability of a pull dog to improve its abilities on a track.

These over size mutt bred pull dogs are not game dogs and since they are crossed, they aren't true American Gamedogs aka APBT. Breeding those mutts into these kind of dogs only will produce is more over size untrustworthy mutts.

UKC has taken the position to have the APBT get back to the traditional size of the APBT by closing single registration April 30, 2010. I understand there might be a new "Bully Breed" for these over sized mutts. It depends if they can breed true of which the American Bulldog couldn't do and was another spin off of the APBT like Bandogs, etc.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

gamer said:


> Drive and gameness are two way different things, you can breed two dogs with great drive and two game dogs and look at those litters and I bet ya the drive litter has produced more drivey dogs then the game dogs produced game dogs. So in short no I dont think gameness will improve drive they are different Breeding for gameness was (talking historically since game testing is a no go anymore in the US) very difficult to breed for and was a crap shoot many times. Which I know you know just putting it out there. So what I am saying is do you think all weight pull dogs are game? That is what I was saying it doesnt take a game dog to pull I mean you have this dog Toy Poodle in Weight Pulling Contest - Oddities News - redOrbit is he game
> 
> oh BTW this is just healthy discussion I am not fighting with ya


:clap: for sure...

for me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog", be able to be worked to point he's just holding on a whooped mess, and then he comes back to handle his business and work down his opponent.. All my jocko dogs are fire, they love to grab a dog, even after an intense run and hunt they don't mind grabbing each other up, always on watch. What I am saying is that our own personal preferences have destroyed what the dog men left for us. The APBT is a function breed, that should always be gamebred... SHOULD BE.. heres an example of pulling game dogs ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [173332] :: BLEVIN'S BAD DADDY (STACY'S BUDDY), 
My Turok was 1/4 CHbullshit/FredT and he was a good puller as well.
heres another..
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [14282] :: GR CH ACE MAX DUGAN VITALI

Pulling is an excercise that is trained as much as it is encouraged..conditioned.

What do you think about Rios Dogs? 80lbs chinaman/gator dogs? Males
would these dogs be game bred as they were taken from game stock or would they be pulling dogs. As a breeder I culled, because thats the way I was taught and the way I read it was done. Bleeding hearts and tender feet is the death of this country, let alone good bulldogs/APBTs. These dogs should be for the few the elite dogmen/women that have what it takes to keep up with what it takes to raise deep game dogs, they love to fight; you have to teach them not to fight, fk what the media and public opinion say, you already know. So we just need to clear some things up and it will clean up the name of the APBT... Louis Colby LOUIS, lol, said "no one wants a man bitting fighting dog." So therefore the game bred dog(BRED AND CULLED PROPERLY) will clean up the pulling dogs and show dogs should come from those game dogs that are picture perfect not bred to be picture perfect, with show titles promoting a game bred dog, like the ADBA show stock, OR we need to DIVIDE THE BLOODLINES AS BREEDS ALL TOGETHER... That won't happen but either it all should be game or the game dog breeders need to isolate themselves in an American Game Dog type Assoc and figure out how to salvage the name; or the dog by changing the name. Personally I think an elite attitude and availablity would be the best thing to salvage the game dog which is the true APBT, everyone take a game name renames it and makes a play on their own, I was no diferent really with pulling out the oldest traits of pit stock genetics, other than I breed my bitches only once and sterilized as I went along including the final product.

IMO the APBT should only be game bred and the right specimens go to the show ring, pulling ring and over seas or down in spanish america for the []. Breeding for anything other than game first trashes the blood, JMO


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

I hope you know Fred T quit with the Yankee Boys.

GR CH ACE MAX DUGAN VITALI was a conformation show dog.
These weren't truly deep game dogs.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

> What do you think about Rios Dogs? 80lbs chinaman/gator dogs? Males
> would these dogs be game bred as they were taken from game stock or would they be pulling dogs.


Well if the parents were tested and proven game (of course anyone can say anything these days since there are no matching in the lime light and even discussing game testing your dogs can land you in jail, thus making e champions the flavor of the year) they would be game bred, but until proven other wise they are simply over sized dogs in someones yard. Weight pulling is not a way to prove gameness it just isnt there is no comparison to pulling and a dog going back when he could barely walk and has just had his butt handed to him in the box. As far as his dogs I would like to see some DNA testing because both FB and GB said it is virtually impossible that a chinaman dog would go that large. I love talking to the old dogs in the breed because we get good laughs out of all this my 90 pound dog is pure chinaman crap people pull from their rears.


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

> What do you think about Rios Dogs? 80lbs chinaman/gator dogs? Males


I don't believe in dogs that big, I've read, been taught other wise. Especailly the 110 lb dog. But I'm not goin to bash a mans dogs but I don't believe in APBTs being that big.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

> or me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog",


So if I have say lab and I decide to fight him and he runs in with drive and attacks the dog but then decides he is losing and starts howling and scambling for the wall he is game because he had the drive to get into it with another dog?

Or say I take a border collie out and he runs in and pulls a bull down to the ground but sustains no injuries and the bull gave in to him and went down without a fight then that border collie would be game?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=14282 
Sired by a 9x winner, alot of wins for dog thats not game~ some good blood...

No~ once again,_ (for me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog", be able to be worked to point he's just holding on a whooped mess, and then he comes back to handle his business and work down his opponent.. )_for a dog to engage into a known threat as powerfull as a bull or a bear with no fear, and WITH OUT CURRING, consistantly engaging, even when its just a winded bag of bones, then bounces back with the drive or more drive than he/she had when entered the challenge. However a APBT can out herd a Border Collie and out retrieve and jump a Labrador, unfortunatley those dogs can't out do the APBT at what it was bred to do. Hooch has curred out many dogs just by his presence, including apbts of boudreaux and sorrels lines, had those dogs circle owners feet trying to get out of site, LOL... That was just on coyote hunts before and after hunts.

_When raising any catch dogs, or bear dogs, or for cats(mt.lions) even hounds have kennel fights and sometimes even killing each other, its important you find a state that supports your lifestyle, *hunting predators with dogs is big in Idaho*, so dog fighting is a misd and there has to be a witness and gambling invovled. Because so many people have bear dogs, hounds, game dogs(very few), catch dogs(cur dogs), etc to hunt predators, while working for the vet made many calls to stitch up peoples hounds and such..Although they aren't game dogs they are pugnacious so the laws support the peoples consitutional rights. So I don't worry about kennel disputes anymore, just patch em up, though they are slim to none these days, no pit fighting going on here, just intense little dogs of prey. IN no way do I believe weight pulling can prove a game dog, rather its excercise for him/her, like strength training a boxer _
As far as the big dogs we already agree that a game dog should be small as I bred my foundation 75lb 3/4 Jocko male down to 35lbs. I brought up those big chinaman dogs because people swear that big dogs from "game" lines are rung or mongerals... So I just wondered what ya'll thought about that, I didn't think chinaman dogs went over 50 hell 45lb as far as what I have seen, but Im not keen on those dogs and big dogs and occur, I got a lil shot of G&G spike in my 30lb zebo dog thats about it from garner. Mind you Chavis Jocko(my bag) was big dog and his sire was a 40lbs dog, so big dogs can occur from small dogs (begging the question). Fred T was Tudors and Useltons, thats all I needed to know, a well bred dog that I don't see around much, I used heavy Tudors dogs because Tudors gathered dogs and through them all together so the way I see it those lines have some good stuff waiting to resurface especially tossed in with Jocko, all kinds of good stuff popped up.. Genetics is everything~
The original dogmen took game dogs to show, to weight pull, etc.. SO why should we do any different? Whats that Heinzel said? "When we start breeding for looks?~ yadda yadda" We should breed for game which is a mentality, the rest just falls in place. JMO


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

gamer said:


> So if I have say lab and I decide to fight him and he runs in with drive and attacks the dog but then decides he is losing and starts howling and scambling for the wall he is game because he had the drive to get into it with another dog?
> 
> Or say I take a border collie out and he runs in and pulls a bull down to the ground but sustains no injuries and the bull gave in to him and went down without a fight then that border collie would be game?


:goodpost:

Its so diffrent what people class as game these days! it is mistaken with agression ALOT.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Why not just dissect the "Bully Bloodlines" and not bring in the rest because it only adds confusion to your position.:hammer:[/QUOTE]

I got all twisted up proving that big dogs occur even from small game dog stock, a rare brute can pop up.. Surounding the King issue... This is the first time I have tried to help the pulling dogs and I found a sht storm when I stepped in, so I figured I would ask... YOU gents brought up that King was an AM BULL and the whole convo lost direction from there.. I didn't say that the dogs get a 12lb advantage rather they work that weight off the dog, to meet at a smaller weight, say a 65lbs chain weight and 75lbs chain weight meet at 59lbs because one throws his weight better. I wonder why we disagree because when I was educated by DT of Xpress is where I get alot of my Yellow dog knowledge he told me specifically that these dogs should be no bigger than 55lbs but big dogs are produced and conditioned down so that its true chain or catch weight is in play dogs like Jocko in which he told me was a 70lbs dog although conditioned off to meet that "game dog weight"; because Hooch is related to all those dogs, I wanted to know why he was so big from a 50lbs male and female although the gyp did hit 60lbs at one time. That lead me to call and arrange meetings with other yards VK, HHK(hardhitting kennels had the smallest gamedogs I've seen 23lbs and almost pure Jocko), to get a good understanding of the Jocko/Redboy dogs and what they throw, which is alot of big dogs. Comparing them to other lines and watching how they grow and what they do~ I have put the info up to back every statment I made except for the mistake in speaking in which I have openly admitted, I have also admitted I turned down every chance to put wins on my dog, even turned down good money to send a dog to philipines and another to ecuador, so your right if you are in that world you know more, than what your told or taught, experience by experience is the best education. I know Im a dumb with a bunch of crap dogs, and a  regiment, otherwise my dogs of prey http://www.myspace.com/abishaikennels(as I advertised them until I retired) wouldn't be able to run miles in the mountains and catch bear fight and kill coyotes all night and run the milesthrough the moutains back home... I know nothing of genetics or behavior... By the way knowledge comes from wisdom and understanding, when your wrong your wrong, I was wrong I admitted that and you sound like a batch by calling me out as to changing statements like I was Obama or somthing, when I admitted a mistake, from how I talk.. No one is right all the time, even you, when intelligent people are wrong they admit it and grow from it, ehh TX.. Keep talking sht; making me famous 

Your right about that; I am on here way TOOO MUCH.. I easily get misdirected; two more things your right about, now be careful patting yourself on the back, that bursitis will start kicking in...  I won't check this thread again, because it is off subject and theres no going back~


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

An APBT can not our herd a border collie, sorry not gonna happen.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I grew up with Border collies. I agree with gamer. Those dogs would heard our cats kittens.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

Firehazard said:


> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [14282] :: GR CH ACE MAX DUGAN VITALI
> Sired by a 9x winner, alot of wins for dog thats not game~ some good blood...
> 
> No~ once again,_ (for me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog", be able to be worked to point he's just holding on a whooped mess, and then he comes back to handle his business and work down his opponent.. )_for a dog to engage into a known threat as powerfull as a bull or a bear with no fear, and WITH OUT CURRING, consistantly engaging, even when its just a winded bag of bones, then bounces back with the drive or more drive than he/she had when entered the challenge. However a APBT can out herd a Border Collie and out retrieve and jump a Labrador, unfortunatley those dogs can't out do the APBT at what it was bred to do. Hooch has curred out many dogs just by his presence, including apbts of boudreaux and sorrels lines, had those dogs circle owners feet trying to get out of site, LOL... That was just on coyote hunts before and after hunts.
> ...


That pup is in my pedigree


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## Dr.Q (Jan 12, 2010)

I concider that dog to be out of proportion for my standarts.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

K guys I didn't read this whole thread but I did look at the peds on the page. Way back they say Johnson's this or Johnson's that, That is American Bulldog for sure Johnson was one of the main guys for American Bulldogs so if they say they have a Johnson dog way back in the ped then they are American bulldog crosses. Some one said it out right Whopper dog. Wanna be a whopper was an AmBulldog APBT cross so you got it


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

kg420 said:


> K guys I didn't read this whole thread but I did look at the peds on the page. Way back they say Johnson's this or Johnson's that, That is American Bulldog for sure Johnson was one of the main guys for American Bulldogs so if they say they have a Johnson dog way back in the ped then they are American bulldog crosses. Some one said it out right Whopper dog. *Wanna be a whopper was an AmBulldog APBT cross so you got *it


I believe he was Dogue de Bordeaux X ?????? no one knows for sure, If I was to guess I would say he was Dogue de Bordeaux X AmBulldog I don't believe he had and APBT in him IMO that is.

This thread has gone off track lol


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Gamer, a friend of mine named Bob Fritz former owner of APRL who also coached for conditioning Micheal Spink when he fought Mike Tyson. Bob is the person who always conditioned Chinaman for the owner V.R. in CA. Bob told me when he got Chinaman he was severally malnutritioned. He had to shotgun steroid him. I asked Bob what that meant, he said he had to give 4 steroids at once to Chinaman to build him back up to a healthy weight.
Chinaman is basically from the Boudreaux Eli blood. I've had many dogs from the Eli stock over the years. I bred to Ch. Rascal's brother Ch. Paddy Boy in 1975. I never had dogs 75+ pounds chain weight. Some in the 60's but not 70's.

Firehazard, all modern combat dogs are Corvino/Tudor cross.
The name which appears the most in the last 4 generations in Dibo is Corvino.
Only xpress I knew was Texas Express. Only D.T. I knew which Gr. Ch. Yellow dogs was the owner David. Ch. Jocko dogs would get large for the breed standard but I believe they were pure breed and not mutt crossed or could they produce 85+ dogs. BTW what did Ch. Jocko or his brother Ch. Argus ever produce that didn't have Red Boy in the pedigree? NADA!
BTW to be in Catch Weight and showing a 75 pound dog and a 65 pound dog at 59 lb. isn't catch weight, it is pound for pound and if both best weight is 59 lb you can't tell me that it is as easy or natural or healthy for the 75 lb. dog to take off 16 pounds as would be for a 65 lb. dog to take off 6 pounds in a KEEP.
I have conditioned about as many dogs as anyone alive at this time and I can tell you which has the edge at show time.....
This is why V.A. turned the conditioning over to some one who what he was doing with Mayday.

Back to the thread topic. We all have known for years these over sized dogs were mutt bred. If they were used in the [] they would have been culled (bigger they are, bigger chance of them being a cur) but instead they were used for weight pulling. Because they were big, stupid and would stagger down the track pulling weights everyone were in ah of them. Breeding dogs down from Gamedogs, notice I didn't say "game stock" because even dogs from "game stock" has to culled, will not produce better pulling dogs. I knew many Gamedogs which wouldn't work a lick in Keep but in the [], they were hell on wheels!
Personally, I glad they are now again trying to standardize the breed in size and shape. This is why it took almost 40 years for AKC would recognize the dogs as a pure breed because they came in every shape, size and color.

No matter what event to compete in, it is only right that you compete with other dogs of the same standard so the playing field is level. If it is only APBT breed pull, they should meet the true standard of a "pure bred" APBT! JMO.

BTW Gr. Ch. Pedro wasn't a 9xw. Bob Cox who once owned him claims the dog Davis, Snakeman had wasn't the same dog so there is dispute over the dog.
His son wasn't a tested proven dog. For all anyone knows, he could ahve been a cull.
BTW Ch. Rascal wasn't an 8xw only 5xw and quit twice.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Mcleod15 said:


> I believe he was Dogue de Bordeaux X ?????? no one knows for sure, If I was to guess I would say he was Dogue de Bordeaux X AmBulldog I don't believe he had and APBT in him IMO that is.
> 
> This thread has gone off track lol


Ok your right sorry. He was AmBulldog Douge de Bordeaux mix registered as pit.
But the dog posted was most definatly AmBulldog mix if he has Johnson way back in the ped.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Tx Red Dog said:


> Gamer, a friend of mine named Bob Fritz former owner of APRL who also coached for conditioning Micheal Spink when he fought Mike Tyson. Bob is the person who always conditioned Chinaman for the owner V.R. in CA. Bob told me when he got Chinaman he was severally malnutritioned. He had to shotgun steroid him. I asked Bob what that meant, he said he had to give 4 steroids at once to Chinaman to build him back up to a healthy weight.
> Chinaman is basically from the Boudreaux Eli blood. I've had many dogs from the Eli stock over the years. I bred to Ch. Rascal's brother Ch. Paddy Boy in 1975. I never had dogs 75+ pounds chain weight. Some in the 60's but not 70's.


Yeah this is why it is so funny when people try to convince me they have a 90 pound Chinaman dog. I had one guy cuss me out because he said he had a dog with chinaman in the ped I think it was like 16 times and he was 110 pounds. Of course when I asked for the ped the parent with the "chinaman" blood he could not find his papers


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