# Need Some GOOD Info..



## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

I've asked several people, but have received mixed advice, so I'm hoping to try here and see what I get.

Lyza is currently 6 months old. Within the past few weeks I have noticed that she has started to toe out. She also seems to be a little weak in the pasterns.

I have fed her 4Health Grain Free White Fish and Potato since she was 6 weeks old. I thought I was doing good by feeding her this, as everyone told me she would be fine on it, as it's All Life Stages, but now I'm thinking she's either lacking something, or possibly too much protein?

I switched her to the 4Health Puppy formula, which is corn/wheat/soy free, and has more things in it such as calcium, but the protein is slightly higher. I have also started to raise her food bowl.

I understand if her toeing out is genetic, then I can't really do anything about it, but I find it odd that she just recently started to toe out. Is that common? About 6 weeks ago her legs started growing, and nearly doubled in length. Could that have something to do with her toeing out and/or weak pasterns.

Here are some pics to show comparisons:

Around 3 months old:





2 months ago (front feet nice and straight):




Early June:



Earlier this month:





Taken this weekend:





Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!!!


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## montez25 (Apr 9, 2013)

*just a thought*

1st off hello. i've seen you on pitbull chat room website and i must confess i love Elyza. what i'm about to recommend is just an idea. the reason i bring it up is because my last vacation i went to SPI (south padre island.) while there i had my girl Sugar (my dog.) anyways while trying to rinse off at the i guess rinse of station some man approached Sugar and i. he went off on how he has a pit and this and that. the one thing that caught my attention was the topic you're talking about. he had the same problem and all he did was gave his pup some TUMS. when i thought about it it made a lil sense. so look into it. maybe it might work. again i'm just trying to help out.


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

montez25 said:


> 1st off hello. i've seen you on pitbull chat room website and i must confess i love Elyza. what i'm about to recommend is just an idea. the reason i bring it up is because my last vacation i went to SPI (south padre island.) while there i had my girl Sugar (my dog.) anyways while trying to rinse off at the i guess rinse of station some man approached Sugar and i. he went off on how he has a pit and this and that. the one thing that caught my attention was the topic you're talking about. he had the same problem and all he did was gave his pup some TUMS. when i thought about it it made a lil sense. so look into it. maybe it might work. again i'm just trying to help out.


Thanks! Yes, Tums have a lot of calcium, so that would make sense. I just want to be sure that could be the issue before I start giving her extra calcium.


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## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

Can someone explain the phrase toeing out b/c I never heard it before thanks

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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

Pknattsr said:


> Can someone explain the phrase toeing out b/c I never heard it before thanks
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's the correct term for easty-westy.


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## Pink (Jun 29, 2011)

Yeah, I'd say growing bones probably aren't helping the situation. A slight toeing out _might_ correct itself as a dog matures.. though, more often than not, it's gonna be a structural fault due to genetics. Do her parents toe out?


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

The. dog seems to have a slight hocked out front. its genetic and the dog should still be fine. not sure if it is a fault in abkc..but the dog should still be ok. iv had a couple that are slightly hocked out..may be wrong term...that's what we called it on cattle... the dog functioning ok ?


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## KingLeonidus81 (Jul 30, 2013)

Good morn. I'm new to the site & still learning the ropes, but to your comment I'm seeing alot of ABKC's with the same situation I think it's normal & nothing to worry about! I have a female AB & her Mother was that way. I seen it in her as a pup, but now at 3 months her feet are perfectly normal! We run & exersice daily!!!

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## KingLeonidus81 (Jul 30, 2013)

An by the way Lyza is so Beautiful!!!

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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm no expert on this, but I'm sure switching to the puppy formula, as well as raising her dish will in time help. However, as is already known, toeing out is genetic, and while a pup can appear to be conformationally correct at a young age, growth spurts, diet, exercise and genetics can all affect how the dog will turn out conformation-wise when it's older. She could just look this way from the way she's standing as the most recent pix you posted, she wasn't stacked. If the toeing out is minor enough, it can be hidden when stacked... and will probably only be noticed during the movement phase of your dog being judged in the ring. As for being weak in the pasterns, there is a thread somewhere here in Health and Nutrition, about knuckling over, and I'm sure there's some good advice in that thread that could be of use to you and your pup. You may think there's no correlation between weak pasterns and knuckling over, but in all honesty, that's how knuckling over beings. I would search knuckling over, and read what you find and see if there's anything that you can use. Best of luck to you and please keep us updated.


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

Pink said:


> Yeah, I'd say growing bones probably aren't helping the situation. A slight toeing out _might_ correct itself as a dog matures.. though, more often than not, it's gonna be a structural fault due to genetics. Do her parents toe out?


No, her parents do not toe out.



KingLeonidus81 said:


> An by the way Lyza is so Beautiful!!!


Thank you 



mccoypitbulls said:


> The. dog seems to have a slight hocked out front. its genetic and the dog should still be fine. not sure if it is a fault in abkc..but the dog should still be ok. iv had a couple that are slightly hocked out..may be wrong term...that's what we called it on cattle... the dog functioning ok ?


I was hoping to show her UKC.



ThaLadyPit said:


> I'm no expert on this, but I'm sure switching to the puppy formula, as well as raising her dish will in time help. However, as is already known, toeing out is genetic, and while a pup can appear to be conformationally correct at a young age, growth spurts, diet, exercise and genetics can all affect how the dog will turn out conformation-wise when it's older. She could just look this way from the way she's standing as the most recent pix you posted, she wasn't stacked. If the toeing out is minor enough, it can be hidden when stacked... and will probably only be noticed during the movement phase of your dog being judged in the ring. As for being weak in the pasterns, there is a thread somewhere here in Health and Nutrition, about knuckling over, and I'm sure there's some good advice in that thread that could be of use to you and your pup. You may think there's no correlation between weak pasterns and knuckling over, but in all honesty, that's how knuckling over beings. I would search knuckling over, and read what you find and see if there's anything that you can use. Best of luck to you and please keep us updated.


Thank you, I'll check it out!


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## Princesspaola21 (Oct 30, 2012)

Hmmm I feed my pups the same food but I mix it 50/50 with TOTW puppy formula. I've had no issues with their legs for months. They appeared to knuckle over when they were really young but it corrected itself.

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## Princesspaola21 (Oct 30, 2012)

I forgot to add as a pup Slayers legs and feet were perfect but as he grew they became slightly easty westy so it does happen.

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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

Yea, I know it's probably genetic...just hoping the puppy food will help some! lol


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

My 9 month female is a tad east/west and I have asked this question before. I was told she was fine and to be honest, she is super athletic and wicked fast so it is definitely not affecting her negatively. Just observe your Lyza's growth over the weeks/months. Her chest will widen all the way up until 2 years of age (or more) and it "should/may" by result turn her feet back in a tad. That is what I was told. So monitor it from age 12-24 months...that may be the time period where her body corrects itself.

Not a good pic bc she is not standing straight but you get the picture. She is not HALF as bad as most I see on a daily basis...


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## BullyGal (Jun 25, 2012)

KingLeonidus81 said:


> Good morn. I'm new to the site & still learning the ropes, but to your comment I'm seeing alot of ABKC's with the same situation I think it's normal & nothing to worry about! I have a female AB & her Mother was that way. I seen it in her as a pup, but now at 3 months her feet are perfectly normal! We run & exersice daily!!!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Just because a lot of dogs have the fault doesn't make it normal. It IS a structural fault and shouldn't be normal. Just like straight and high rears are common, but its not okay.

Growing stages can affect feet sometimes. I put Champ on Sure Grow 100 when I noticed his pasterns going funky at a young age.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

dude,
even tho thats a blue..................
she's pretty,
i dont know but just going by her age do you think it could be a phase?
a growing spurt?

as long as she's getting a balanced diet, that pretty much should be enuf.

but i'm no expert


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

BullyGal said:


> Just because a lot of dogs have the fault doesn't make it normal. It IS a structural fault and shouldn't be normal. Just like straight and high rears are common, but its not okay.
> 
> Growing stages can affect feet sometimes. I put Champ on Sure Grow 100 when I noticed his pasterns going funky at a young age.


I see everyone talking about that stuff, think I'll get some!



surfer said:


> dude,
> even tho thats a blue..................
> she's pretty,
> i dont know but just going by her age do you think it could be a phase?
> ...


Thank you, and I'm hoping it's just a phase!


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## Beret (May 22, 2013)

For all intents and purposes, he's a mutt but...

Garp went pretty E/W from about 6months to 18months... And slowly over the past 6 months or so, they've been turning straighter and getting tighter.


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Beret said:


> Garp went pretty E/W from about 6months to 18months... And slowly over the past 6 months or so, they've been turning straighter and getting tighter.


That's what I'm thinking...quoting myself here (below)



Luna-Blue said:


> Her chest will widen all the way up until 2 years of age (or more) and it "should/may" by result turn her feet back in a tad. That is what I was told. So monitor it from age 12-24 months...that may be the time period where her body corrects itself.


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

Well, keeping my fingers crossed, then! lol


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## Kain (Apr 21, 2013)

I've noticed Kain standing like this too, and I also feed him the same type of food. Are you going to end up switching to the puppy formula?


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## Luna-Blue (Mar 21, 2013)

Kain said:


> I've noticed Kain standing like this too, and I also feed him the same type of food. Are you going to end up switching to the puppy formula?


I read a good study that was done on diet (mainly just types of kibble i.e. high protein vs lower protein etc) and the results/conclusions were that protein content in kibble has NO CORRELATION with correcting or making bone structure worse. Now obviously there are "SOME" effects with what diet you choose to fed but for the majority of us, it's all the same (as it pertains to bone structure.) The takeaway.....? *Genetics are the main determiner when it comes to bone structure. *

Now as far as diet and being 100% grain-free as it pertains to a pup's overall health....I am a true believer of quality foods/sources. I think people just put too much emphasis on feed when it comes to bone structure.

They did the study(s) due to so many people claiming this and that! Just some food for thought. :roll:


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## ~Missy~ (Apr 3, 2013)

Kain said:


> I've noticed Kain standing like this too, and I also feed him the same type of food. Are you going to end up switching to the puppy formula?


She's on a puppy formula now.



Luna-Blue said:


> I read a good study that was done on diet (mainly just types of kibble i.e. high protein vs lower protein etc) and the results/conclusions were that protein content in kibble has NO CORRELATION with correcting or making bone structure worse. Now obviously there are "SOME" effects with what diet you choose to fed but for the majority of us, it's all the same (as it pertains to bone structure.) The takeaway.....? *Genetics are the main determiner when it comes to bone structure. *
> 
> Now as far as diet and being 100% grain-free as it pertains to a pup's overall health....I am a true believer of quality foods/sources. I think people just put too much emphasis on feed when it comes to bone structure.
> 
> They did the study(s) due to so many people claiming this and that! Just some food for thought. :roll:


Well, the grain free formula I was feeding has no calcium.


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