# Westminster Rewards Cruelty



## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I guess my whole thought on it is rewarding such sickly behavior is going to do NOTHING to discourage it. Who are these people and why do they not care about dogs who are sound being rewarded? Why is all about the most unique and make it seem like they don't care how you got it. Then everyone tried to do it so THEY could win. idk, thoughts? What am I missing if you agree?

Westminster Rewards Cruelty

The son of blind and deaf double merle stud, Wyndlair Avalanche, has won Best of Breed at the 2012 Westminster Kennel Club dog show. You can see "Vinnie" tonight during the Herding Group Judging.

GCH CH Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication wins Best of Breed at Westminster 2012. He is the son of a blind double merle stud dog.
GCH CH Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication is the son of Wyndlair Avlanche and Ch Twin City Cleopatra. He was bred by Anita & Matt Stetler and J Morris. He is also owned by Renee Beals and Laura Rizzo, handled by Beals.

"Vinnie" is not a double merle himself, but he was produced by one. Both of Avalanche's parents are merle and he was intentionally bred by the Stetlers of Wyndlair Collies and "Mike" Cheatham of Southland Collies in hopes of creating a double-merle stud dog that would produce all merle offspring. His breeder's succeeded by producing just one puppy in the litter (indicative of the severe harm to fertility breeding for double merle causes), and he was defective.

*This is what his breeders had to say about why they produced Avalanche:*
Our decision to do a merle-to-merle breeding was the result of a couple years of frustration in not being able to find a quality non-merle stud dog that had the temperament, health, soundness, pedigree and breed type that we work to maintain in our breeding program. It was not a decision made lightly, but after much thought and consideration. Doing a merle-to-merle breeding should only be done by experienced and knowledgeable breeders, and only when a suitable non-merle with the desired quality is not available. Aiden's sire and dam, both wonderful examples of correct Collie type, temperament and health as called for in the Collie standard, were the perfect complements to each other. Our hope in doing the breeding was not to produce a MM, but that is ultimately what we got. Aiden was a singleton puppy with no other littermates conceived. He has always been extremely healthy, happy and robust. He always has a smile on his face and his tail never stops wagging. Being a MM, you wouldn't show him, as phenotypically he doesn't appear as a recognized breed color. Genotypically, he is a blue merle with an additional merle gene.

We have never experienced or heard of any health issues in the Collie breed tied to the merle gene. Litter sizes, health and vigor are just as strong as with non-merles. Both Collies and Shelties have had notable MM producers of dogs without any illness or dysfunction. Each of the offspring of a MM inherit a single merle gene and are normal merles, phenotypically and genotypically. END

Wyndlair Avalanche was never shown in conformation because he can't see, he has been blinded by the entirely avoidable and easily preventable consequence of his breeding. It's very unfortunate that his breeders won't even admit to the public that they produced a blind and deaf dog so others can make the honest choice to not repeat their mistake. Avalanche has never won a single title or even attempted one, never been in the inside of a ring to be judged, never seen a dog show (or another dog), and yet he is now the #1 sire in Rough Collies and the #1 producer of Champions.

Here is what one of the breeders who used Avalanche as a stud had to say about his disability and his conformation:I knew ahead of time that the breeding to Avalanche was taking a chance&#8230;Avalanche is basically blind and deaf. He will never be in the show ring. I don't think I ever would do a breeding at Riverrun that would produce MM puppies. I want my puppies to all be healthy and I don't want to ever take a risk of having a blind and deaf collie. Avalanche is also not very balanced - He is straight in front and doesn't have a strong rear. He doesn't move very well and that is the drawback on many of his puppies. At our National Specialty&#8230;there were many beautiful puppies sired by Avalanche, but most of them had very bad movement. I was getting worried after I saw them.

The Collie Club of America is currently plagued by chaos over the acceptance of sable-merle as an appropriate color, the President has resigned over the issue and factions are forming on each side. There are no known health issues with sable merle other than those with single merle and double merle, and yet the arguments over the ethics of crossing color lines in this case is paramount in the breed and little to no attention is being paid to the horrible ethical consequences of allowing breeders to create infertility, dead fetal puppies, and blind and deaf Collies simply to get a few more merle dogs each litter.

Collie breed clubs and Kennel Clubs around the world have rightfully banned the breeding of merle to merle to prevent the creation of crippled dogs like Avalanche. In the rest of the world, it's unethical, at Westminster it's Best of Breed.


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## rodrigo (Jun 28, 2011)

im sorry if this offends anyone but eff those shows...actually i am not sorry at all.

i saw the show to see some bull dogs... i saw 2 staffies, and one cane corso...(the cane was badass) .... 

ill sum it up like this... in the "working class " i believe a portuguese water dog won the class ....he looked like a freaking poodle ....how the EFFFF are u gonna tell me thats a working dog??? works at a effen hair salon maybe...


those shows praise fluffy off the wall alien looking dogs and disregard true "still look like they did 100 years ago" breeds.


eff westminter shows 

/me rant over


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm not a fan simply because I cringe seeing most of the dogs. The Labs are horridly fat, and the Neapolitans? ... It's depressing. 

Plus this year they pulled adds for shelters and rescues. :/


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## rodrigo (Jun 28, 2011)

oh yes 100% .....dogs look like fat sausages with sticks for legs. 


the cane corso looked well. so did the staffies .... but how ridiculous so many of the dogs seemed was incredible.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree so sad! don't understand a lot of them myself. So crazy how the breeds "evolve"


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

rodrigo said:


> im sorry if this offends anyone but eff those shows...actually i am not sorry at all.
> 
> i saw the show to see some bull dogs... i saw 2 staffies, and one cane corso...(the cane was badass) ....
> 
> ...


I've noticed they often cut to commercial during the terrier group and I always seem to miss the staffies.


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## rodrigo (Jun 28, 2011)

yeah ....those shows are for stiffs and nose up in the air stuck ups.... to me they force some animals to be just downright uncomfortable...with hair down to the floor and covering entire body....i mean jesus christ ..do u really think evolution would favor a dog that cant see??????? 

i just wanted to see beautiful dogs and unfortunately i saw a hair style contest. 

they brought a lab as the "standard" holy crap this thing looked like a pillow with hot dog for legs.... wtf


ridiculous...


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## Indie (Sep 29, 2010)

wellll.. tbh, what they're doing to get these top show dogs isn't far from what has been done to produce top [] dogs. They have to cull a LOT of pups, but if they get what they want in the end...? Not crazy about the AKC and the way they run things, but I don't think cruelty is the name for it.

edit... I should specify that I do NOT AGREE with breeding merle/merle.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Indie said:


> wellll.. tbh, what they're doing to get these top show dogs isn't far from what has been done to produce top [] dogs. They have to cull a LOT of pups, but if they get what they want in the end...? Not crazy about the AKC and the way they run things, but I don't think cruelty is the name for it.
> 
> edit... I should specify that I do NOT AGREE with breeding merle/merle.


true didn't think of it like that, but I guess that's why I could not be a breeder, I could not do it! I am not sure of that either, I just know it must make a lot more people think they should experiment, but I guess people already do that....


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## MamaTank (Jun 12, 2011)

The only dog I want to see in the show is GCH Sweetbriar's Ecco D'Oro JH, an Spinone Italiano. But I will just Youtube it after the show, lol. I don't have cable, so I don't watch


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Indie said:


> wellll.. tbh, what they're doing to get these top show dogs isn't far from what has been done to produce top [] dogs. They have to cull a LOT of pups, but if they get what they want in the end...? Not crazy about the AKC and the way they run things, but I don't think cruelty is the name for it.
> 
> edit... I should specify that I do NOT AGREE with breeding merle/merle.


No where near the same cause that blind dog would have never been breed. Would have been gone a long time ago. Their is nothing ark.g with culling a dog if need be. But it is down right horrible. Dogs loom so no where near what they once did.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Did anyone watch? I thought the "new" breed, the Mexican Hairless was actually a stunning animal. Looked like something out of a sci-fi film. The GSD made me cringe though, show GSDs just don't appear functional at all.


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## HappyPuppy (Oct 11, 2007)

Carriana said:


> Did anyone watch? I thought the "new" breed, the Mexican Hairless was actually a stunning animal. Looked like something out of a sci-fi film. The GSD made me cringe though, show GSDs just don't appear functional at all.


that was neat to see the Xolo - I love the way they feel. I'm not a GSD person but when I saw that one, I told DH that I'd only ever buy a bred one (vs rescue) from Germany or from German lines!!! Americans have ruined them IMHO. ^ his back feet seemed to turn out so he could move them forward - did not look good or graceful at all!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I caught some highlights but not the whole thing. makes me want to look up that breed though lol Hairless cats are crazy cant imagine a dog (as I am going to google now, lol)


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

ames said:


> I caught some highlights but not the whole thing. makes me want to look up that breed though lol Hairless cats are crazy cant imagine a dog (as I am going to google now, lol)


Just looking at images that come up on a Google search it seems that they are pretty inconsistent as far as form. They vary greatly in size as well. I wonder if they have different height categories like some other breeds. I think Border Collies have height classes within the breed, don't they?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Carriana said:


> Did anyone watch? I thought the "new" breed, the Mexican Hairless was actually a stunning animal. Looked like something out of a sci-fi film. The GSD made me cringe though, show GSDs just don't appear functional at all.


I saw the GSsD he seems to be over angulated. When he moved it looked so horrible. Just bad how some of these breeds have been ruined. No way that dog could Excel in any activity that a working GSD could do with no problem.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I dont watch that garbage nor should it surprise anyone to see non functional, piss poor structure, etc winning.. Whoever compared what these show breeders do to working stock couldn't be any more wrong, not even remotely similar unless you think "selective" breeding is the same throughout...

VERY few of those dogs probably shouldn't of been bred in the first place let alone have any ability other than "looking pretty" for 5 minutes..

AKC is shit, UKC is pretty much the same.. Virtually all registries are one of the same, some are better than others.. But very few are honest. All about money and in the end its destroying the dogs.. CAFIB is one of the very few i honestly would support, but still not a god send..


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I think everyone is intitled to there opinion, some of these dogs yes they shouldnt have been bred and alot of these breeds have been bred far out from there original purpose. The GSD in the ring is obviously a far cry from the working bred GSD but that is the same with many breeds including the APBT you have UKC show bred and you have game bred same breed { although I know some of you would differ} but yet still very different in form of function and ability. I have grown up in the AKC world and have seen some amazing dogs not all are abominations so to speak. Are they bred for working? no. they are bred for looks alone. I think if done right you can have looks, health and sturcture all in one. But for someone who looks for working hog dogs I dont think you will find anything you like in the ring period just as someone wanting a show bred dog wont find much in many working dogs. Id take looks and stucture over working any day I have no use for a working dog here. I think UKC and AKC are great if thats what you want in a dog is to show, nothing wrong with either I would take AKC over UKC all day though. 
I think its the same no matter who or what breed you buy there are good breeders breeding quality show dogs and quality working dogs and yet in both groups you will find crap, just because someone has a dog on tv or show ring doesnt make them good breeders or quality dogs. Politics play a big role in who wins in the ring it isnt always the "best" dog who wins. There is good and bad in all realms of the dog world in ALL breeds.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

angelbaby said:


> I think everyone is intitled to there opinion, some of these dogs yes they shouldnt have been bred and alot of these breeds have been bred far out from there original purpose. The GSD in the ring is obviously a far cry from the working bred GSD but that is the same with many breeds including the APBT you have UKC show bred and you have game bred same breed { although I know some of you would differ} but yet still very different in form of function and ability. I have grown up in the AKC world and have seen some amazing dogs not all are abominations so to speak. Are they bred for working? no. they are bred for looks alone. I think if done right you can have looks, health and sturcture all in one. But for someone who looks for working hog dogs I dont think you will find anything you like in the ring period just as someone wanting a show bred dog wont find much in many working dogs. Id take looks and stucture over working any day I have no use for a working dog here. I think UKC and AKC are great if thats what you want in a dog is to show, nothing wrong with either I would take AKC over UKC all day though.
> I think its the same no matter who or what breed you buy there are good breeders breeding quality show dogs and quality working dogs and yet in both groups you will find crap, just because someone has a dog on tv or show ring doesnt make them good breeders or quality dogs. Politics play a big role in who wins in the ring it isnt always the "best" dog who wins. There is good and bad in all realms of the dog world in ALL breeds.


I have no problem if people want to show, i'm not feeding their dogs nor are they feeding mine.. However, if you want to show you should still be breeding or supporting breeders that are sticking to "as true" as possible to the hound while representing whatever registry you go through says the dog should be.. It doesn't have to be a slanted trade off, however you consistently breed towards a show standard, registry standard and within a few generations you begin losing function and purpose shifts.. Which is, in my opinion NOT what you want..

Another issue is AKC, UKC and even your smaller registries are constantly evolving.. Look at a Champion English Bulldog that was accepted by the AKC, for instance, in the early 1900s as opposed to what is accepted now.. Look at ANY breed and you will notice over the years slight changes and eventually an "accepted" way of being...

Supporting such idiocy only further adds to the problem.. Look at the westminster show.. How many merle dogs were there? How many merles did you see in dogs where the gene did not exist in just a few decades ago? How about horrible structure? How about overweight dogs that were praised? Stubby, pathetic legs? Ridiculously long hair that serves NO purpose other than cosmetic? I can literally write a book worth of shit that was seen and I didn't even have to look for a second to know.. Its been going on for YEARS and within the last 15 or so years, has gotten FAR worse than what many imagined.. Or just dismissed all together..

People are slowly starting to get it but no where near the level of what should be..


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I agree everyone should be sticking to the standards, we see alot of that in the bully world right now probably more in the bully world then any other breed out there people breeding to " their likes" over standards. Like I said there is good and bad in all aspects and anyone looking for a dog of any breed should do there homework and not base a good breeder on how many ribbons they hold. There are alot of breeds that have been ran into the ground from show breeders breeding to there likes, I wanted an EB unfortunately they way they have been bred has left them in a heap of medical issues, its sad.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Case and point: the Pekingese won best in show. It could hardly walk or breathe but let's give the little floeor duster a ribbon. Ugh.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Ya I thought that was funny since the judge cindy is part of the k9 health oganization. Would have thought maybe breathing and health would have played a role. I would have picked the doby he was nice.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

I was rooting for the Dobie as well.


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

DEspite all the sturctural crap we all had to paw thru....i really have to hand it to thwe owners of the dogs with all that HAIR!!! WOW! Some of those coatys were amazing and hats off to those that have the patience to groom them every day.. I know my limitations for sure! I barely even comb my own hair musch less my dogs! But props for the hair nontheless just cause I don't and won't do hair.


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