# Did you say dog park?



## Marty

More often than they should, pit bull owners wonder about the dog park issue, finding themselves explaining to others that their dog is not a "killing machine," it is not "one of those pit bulls" and there is no reason that their dog can't enjoy off leash time with unknown dogs. Some will even insist that "you only add to the misconception toward this breed when you don't allow your friendly pit bull to go to the dog park." After all, these people argue that it is all about "how we raise them" and providing socialization is the key to no problem dogs. Unfortunately, that's not true.

Dog aggression in our own dogs should not be a problem. Good management and knowledge prevent trouble. Responsible and caring pit bull owners have done their homework and know what to expect from the breed. This breed's genetic traits involve dog aggression, to varying degrees. Even the most well socialized pit bull can one day decide that other dogs are not play buddies. It happens most often when the dog reaches maturity between two and three years of age, and it can happen without apparent reason.

Here are some good articles for basic breed information:

http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html 
http://www.realpitbull.com/fight.html

Because of the breed's background, it is unfair to expect dogs to behave the way we want them to when it comes to dog aggression and dog to dog relationships. We set our dogs up for failure when we decide to let them off leash in a public place and allow them to romp with other dogs. Dog parks are a place where people like to chit chat with each other, paying very little attention to what happens around their dogs. Posturing, body language, subtle looks and even vocalization are often misunderstood or overlooked by dog owners. Even when dogs let us know what is about to happen we might not see what is happening until it is too late. Most dog owners have no idea of what body language means, and don't know how to intervene if things go wrong. They panic, scream, yell, and hit the attacking dog; all of which often just makes things worse. A fight between two dogs can be hard enough to stop; now imagine a fight among 4 or 5 of them. In fights like these, pets and even people can be seriously injured.

Dog parks are also a place where unknown dogs are present. We don't know if they're fully vaccinated or in good health. They can be sick and our dogs can get ill as well.

We don't know if they are truly friendly dogs or if they may be aggressive. Everybody's dog is friendly, according to their owners. When the "friendly" dog decides to snap at ours, a fight starts.

Who is going to be blamed for that fight? Will it be the pit bull or the cute little fluffy dog? The answer is obvious.

Here is the story of one accident at a dog park, involving a pit bull.:

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogpark.cfm

Below is an article about a pit bull named Nettie that attacked a police horse, in San Francisco, in 2003. Nettie was let off leash at a public park by her irresponsible owner. The dog did nothing wrong, but she was set up for failure by the person who should have protected her. Nettie belonged to an SPCA volunteer and she was often taken to senior centers to comfort the elderly. Nettie was a good dog. This pretty pit bull female paid the price for her owner's ignorance and irresponsibility with her life. Many dogs have lost their lives the same way, due to the same kind of irresponsibility. It took her life for her owner to "get it." Like most situations of this sort, the events that ultimately resulted in Nettie's unfair death were totally preventable.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2003/11/23/horse23.DTL

Each time a pit bull is allowed to harm another pet all pit bull owners and their dogs suffer. One common defensive reaction of dog park lovers is "the dog is mine and it is nobody's business where I take it." This is not true. It is every pit bull owner's business as well. We are surrounded by BSL (Breed Specific Legislation) all over the Country. The news media report dog to dog attacks or dog to cat/cow/horse/sheep attacks almost every day, and with the same attention as if Osama Bin Laden had been captured. Reporters often compare human aggression to animal aggression. How many times do we hear "it was a dog but it could have been a child"?

It is ridiculous but it happens every day. "There goes another vicious pit bull attacking an innocent dog or cat!" What happens after a pit bull attacks another dog in the neighborhood or at the local dog park? It is like we suddenly own wild animals that have no right to exist. Our friendly neighbor suddenly stops talking to us and no longer lets her children come around our dog. The person we used to walk our dog with is no longer available because she fears for her pet. The two men down the street no longer come and pet our dog when we walk by their homes or rush into the house if they have their dogs with them. People ask for a ban. We did not change and our dog is the same as always but this is the result of one mistake, caused by someone who obviously did not care about the rest of us. It is a sad situation to be in.

This breed doesn't need any more accidents, we can't afford them. We are in this situation thank to those who failed their own dogs. When a whole breed suffers because of someone's action it is our business as well. No doubt on that.

Vet bills aren't cheap, emotions can be overwhelming, the guilt stays, so why to risk it? It isn't fair that only one breed is targeted when dogs of other breeds have killed or attacked other dogs. Today, a dog behaving like a dog has become a sin. Fair or not that is how the situation is and every pit bull owner needs to understand it.

The point of socialization is for a dog to have positive experiences with other dogs. When people take their dogs, perhaps puppies, to a park and something happens, they are responsible for the consequences. A young dog that is attacked for no reason won't be so willing to be friendly the next time it meets an unknown dog. An experience like that is a bad start and can often lead to problems in the future. There are no guarantees on what can happen at a dog park because dog parks are often full of different dogs with different personalities and tolerance levels. Even an easy going adult dog can change its approach after an attack. It is hard enough for a dog of this breed to tolerate other dogs and it is a big mistake to contribute to bad experiences. Dogs should always rely on us to defend them--the trust factor is important. We are responsible for protecting our dogs from harm. A dog that has no choice but to defend itself loses its trust in the owner and knows that in the future it needs to take care of itself. It then becomes fearful of other dogs and not so willing to behave like a well-balanced dog that was socialized in the appropriate way.

How can we socialize around other dogs then? Good question. Socialization is a must but it has to be done with common sense and in a controlled environment. Perhaps a friend has a mellow dog of the opposite sex and he/she is willing to let the dogs play together. Both owners should know that there is the possibility of a scrap and will intervene immediately and with the appropriate tools/techniques. Both owners will watch their dogs closely and never leave them unsupervised.

Every pit bull owner should have a breaking stick available, even when on a walk, hidden somewhere. It is a quick and effective way to break a hold.

What is a breaking stick and why it is an important tool to have: 
http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html

Some information on how to break up a fight: 
http://www.pbrc.net/breakfight.html

Obedience classes are an option too. In obedience classes, the dogs are leashed and can learn to control themselves in the presence of other dogs. It is not necessary for a pit bull to be dog friendly, but it is necessary for us to help them learn to control natural behaviors. Dogs that are exposed to this kind of environment can learn to behave with some time and work.

The local feedstore/petstore is another way to socialize our dogs, because they are another place where dogs are leashed. It's important to remember that it doesn't mean we don't need to pay attention to the surroundings. Respect the comfort level of your dog and move away from other dogs if necessary. Face to face interactions can quickly end badly, even when both dogs are leashed.

Those who are still convinced that a pit bull belongs to a dog park would benefit from reading these links. Their dogs and all of us will benefit as well.Please, don't set your dog up for failure.

http://www.pbrc.net/dogpark.html 
http://www.pitbullpress.com/ARTICLES/DOGPARK.html


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## PeanutsMommy

Good Post.

For me it is also all the germs at dog parks that keeps me out of them (even the regular park for that matter) 
There is no one there checking the health of the dogs that enter also there is no proof of vaccines. I keep my dog up to date on everything and want to keep him healthy. No reason to put him at risk of cooties and other dogs.


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## ~*Mish*~

:goodpost:

We are in this together to be responsible owners. It seems like everyday I am reading yet another story in our local paper about an attack by a pit bull or pit bull "type" ( basically, any dog that looks like it may have a similarity to what someone thinks is a pit bull) There are some people who insist that their pit bull is an exception to the rule, and these are the very same people who continue to drag the breed through the mud with their ignorance.


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## buzhunter

I'll second that.


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## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad"

tomorrow morning at 6:30 am i will take Jameson and go pick up my friend's pointer that is a rough-neck maniac, probably have a massacre in my car and then let the two of them loose in the woods near our complex.... It's a county park with 300+ acres. Let the blood spill.  Just kidding. They do play rough though and it's all the better for my home. I would take the two of them to the dog park but the visitors get nervous with the snarling and snapping.


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## CoolHandJean

Yeah, I wouldn't bring any breed of dog I own to a dog park. Too many irresponsible owners and too many diseases.


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## Nizmo

and when the other dog picks the fight, most the time the pitbull will get the better of the other dog, and when that happens it is of coarse the pitbuls fault,
simply because of its name.
from what i've seen anyway.


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## dan'sgrizz

I laugh when grizz is so friendly and they say " we should have a play date... What dog park do you go to?" I feel bad for laughing in there face but it's a knee jerk reaction. I walk by a couple dog parks and I don't like what I see... Lazy people from the nearby condos with hyper dogs.


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## cp3tme

People at dog parks are very discriminative. Their in the most uppity neighborhoods and most of the dog owners know nothing about pits and are lazy owners with poorly trained dogs. My friend took his 6 month old blue pit to a park and people were staring at him and his dog before he took him off of the leash, not even paying attention to their dogs. He said that he just took him home because he didn't feel like being stared at the whole time he was there.


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## HoneyMiPit

I had the same thing happen to me.People staring meanwhile, its like a groupie meeting and everyone standing around not watching their Dog.


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## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se

HoneyMiPit said:


> I had the same thing happen to me.People staring meanwhile, its like a groupie meeting and everyone standing around not watching their Dog.


yup EXACTLY.. PPL THERE DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR DOGS.. i mean they sit there and chit chat, and arent look at the signs to a possible fight. when i took kenya to one when she was a little tyke, all the ppl were trying to talk to me and i was like "uh huh, yeah,, mmm, mmmhmmm..." cuz my eyes were fixed on kenya and the other dogs. someone caled me a rude b*tch but i cant help it, I WASNT THERE TO TALK TO U. lol... no more dog parks... dont want to set kenya up to fail.


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## princesstrish617

Layla and I were going to the dog park pretty regularly for the socialization but I knew I would not take her after 7-8 monthes. Well she's only 4 1/2 monthes and we arnt going back. First off it pisses me off when people say ohhh a pitbull is she friendly?!? Umm ya shes a puppy are you kidding! And noone watches thier dogs at all! People are more concerned with socializing amongst themselves. Also Layla seems to get bullyed but ill mannered pups/dogs so we've experienced it and decided no more. Not to mention I think she got fleas from there and had to be treated for worms again which I'm going to assume she picked up there as well.


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## PeanutsMommy

ahh learned the hard way the thought of a dog park makes me cringe. aside from all the snooty people who let their unruly dogs run wild and be jerks the cooties that are at them! there is no one monitering the health of the dogs that attend the park. yuck.


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## princesstrish617

yes definitely learnt the hard way! Some dogs are just not a good match for her to play with either....too rough/big.

Its amazing how rough and tough our dogs are supposed to be but she was getting her little butt kicked by a golden lol


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## PeanutsMommy

before i got on the forums and learned about dog parks when Peanut was 4 months old we took him to the dog park once. he was playing with his ball (we brought it from home to throw for him) and from behind come this big white dog with black spots and he mounted Peanut. even though Peanut was young he got angry and ran that dog off i havent seen Peanut so aggressive (i dont blame him though). we put Peanut's leash on and left immediately and havent been back. then i cmae to the forums a little later and learned more of the horrors of dog parks. never again will i take any dog to the dog park


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## OldSchoolAPBT

I avoid dog parks with or without my pit they just arent good, ive had a dog get sick because someone had a sick dog after that hapened it was no more dog parks


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## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad"

*change of heart*

I have been bringing my boy to the dog park around the corner from my condo since he was seven months. He always played rough with the other dogs but was well liked and never got out of control or became really vicious. I thought that he was socialized well enough to be unleashed around other dogs.

UNTIL.... July when my daughter was born.. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but if I let him off-leash in that dog park around other dogs, unless they are small dogs or puppies, he will immediately try to attack and kill them. He's like a completely different animal and will not listen to any commands and he terrifies all of the large dogs and people.

Now I only go there rarely when the weather is bad or very early in the morning when there are no dogs there. I normally just bring him to the county park early in the morning before the mountain bikers get up there. It's 375 acres and there are NO OTHER DOGS there at that time.

Luckily my dog hasn't injured any other dogs, but now I have learned what so many of the people meant about this breed around other dogs off-leash. Just because your dog has always gotten along well with other dogs, doesn't mean that he always will and it can mean thousands in a lawsuit and cause more public damage to the breed.

Be really careful with your Pit in the dog park!


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## APBTHAUS

I make my own dag park. Usually have a few friends with dogs go out for a hike or an empty field and they can play. I know they care for their animals and my dog loves her pals.


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## Fatadam9

Never been to a dog park.. never will. I wouldnt go no matter the breed I owned. We go hiking and to open fields/parks with Brooklyn's friends only. She has a good dozen doggy friends she plays with, and that is plenty for me and her! No need to go play with dogs of people I don't know. IMO, if you want to get a dog breed that needs to be socialized, and you don't know anyone that owns dogs for your dog to socialize... don't get a pit!


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## patty

Good management and knowledge prevent trouble. I agree with this 100%. If you know your dog and have trained him well and spent some good quality time with him or her, then there is not a reason why you can not allow him or her to socialize at the dog park.


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## ames

patty said:


> Good management and knowledge prevent trouble. I agree with this 100%. If you know your dog and have trained him well and spent some good quality time with him or her, then there is not a reason why you can not allow him or her to socialize at the dog park.


there are many many reasons to avoid a dog park even with the most socialized well trained and behaved dog. Disease and BSL are at the very top. It doesn't matter if your dog was even in a fight, it could be other dogs that get at it, but YOUR dog would be the one mentioned. Its has happened many many many times, including from someone on here! Why take the risk when there are many other places and people and dogs you could socialize with that don't include allow your dog off leash on public property with dogs and owners you do not know?


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## mi16reisen

I've decided to stop going to dog parks. If I do, then it needs to be near-empty. I used to take my puppy there all the time once she got her shots. I liked going because I learned a lot about my dog and other people, but now it's getting too risky. Although she's only 40 lbs. she has no concept of her size and loves to play with much bigger dogs (100 lbs.+). It's also mainly because I don't trust _other_ people with their dogs, especially when they come in cliques that meet every other evening or so.

My pup isn't DA but she will zone in and pick on insecure/nervous dogs, especially if they are vocal and small(er). She'd taunt them and want to play. She's gotten a lot better about leaving those types of dogs alone, especially if I'm close enough to just stand/walk in her way. Either way, too much of a risk. People have and will misconstrue her play behavior as aggression.

I also hate it when other owners start talking to you about how to raise your dog. Most park people are average pet owners and do not need to pay attention to their dogs as much as those who work their animals.


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## Aynjelia

*Dog park, no.*

Go to dog parks, don't go to dog parks.


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## nthn79

We have stopped going to dog parks also, even with our non-pit bull. While my pit mix is not DA, neither dog will let another attack it with snapping back. Last time we were there, there was a 'pack' of dogs that kept trying to 'play' with our pup. I had to pick him up and leave, while the owners looked on or visited with each other. We decided that it was not worth risking it just to give our dogs a chance to run in a bigger space than we have at home.

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## jesspal

Stopped going to dog park when a gentleman dropped off his Doberman and proceeded to leave for his jog. Left the dog completely unattended and I was the a hole for grabbing him and making him take care of his dog.

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## TeamCourter

We stay away from the dog parks also. I took Deuce to the dog park a couple of times for socialization back when he was just a pup. The first time no one supervised their dogs and paid no attention that their dogs were running mine over, so we left. The second time we stayed off to the side kind of away from the others. As Deuce and I were playing fetch minding our own business a Golden Retriever ran over and started attacking him while my pup just coward onto the ground. The owner of the dog was way on the other side of the part sitting at a picnic table drinking her coffee with her back facing the field where her dog was supposed to be playing, she had no idea anything had happened. I will never go back to a dog park no matter what breed I own, I don't want to risk my dog turning out DA because of a bad experience with an out of control dog and careless owners.

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## macrae

We still take our two dogs to the park. If I don't like how people are acting or their dogs I ask them to leave. We have a set of rules posted on the outside and I make sure my dogs and us as owners follow them. There was a really small dog that attacked our pup and then she tried to attack our older girl and she has never once been DA but this time she put her in her place. Didn't bite her but let her know. And I let her owner know that she needed to leave. Everyone knows our dogs well and knows that they are so nice

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## ames

macrae said:


> We still take our two dogs to the park. If I don't like how people are acting or their dogs I ask them to leave. We have a set of rules posted on the outside and I make sure my dogs and us as owners follow them. There was a really small dog that attacked our pup and then she tried to attack our older girl and she has never once been DA but this time she put her in her place. Didn't bite her but let her know. And I let her owner know that she needed to leave. Everyone knows our dogs well and knows that they are so nice
> 
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with so many other options and safer ways to exercise your dog why take the risk?


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## macrae

ames said:


> with so many other options and safer ways to exercise your dog why take the risk?


Oh no don't get me wrong we do take them on several walks, swims, and hikes. But I take them there to socialize them. A couple out here were looking for a pit bull so I found one for them and they never took him places or around other dogs, and unfortunately the dog is not people and dog aggressive. We don't take them up there as often now but when we do if I see an owner not watching after their dogs because they THINK they won't do anything I ask them to leave or go to the other side where they don't have to worry about their dogs biting mine. I have pretty submissive dogs and they are not DA whatsoever but I still keep and eye on them so if anyone tried to say that they attacked first then I have the upper hand whether not my dogs are pit bulls or not. I live on a military base and everyone knows my dogs and knows how sweet they are.but if it came down to it and my dogs ever got out of line I would not take them up there. Guam I'd rabies free and we take them for regular checkups so I'm not afraid that they will contract a disease or anything of that sort. Sorry for the long paragraph!

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## macrae

macrae said:


> Oh no don't get me wrong we do take them on several walks, swims, and hikes. But I take them there to socialize them. A couple out here were looking for a pit bull so I found one for them and they never took him places or around other dogs, and unfortunately the dog is not people and dog aggressive. We don't take them up there as often now but when we do if I see an owner not watching after their dogs because they THINK they won't do anything I ask them to leave or go to the other side where they don't have to worry about their dogs biting mine. I have pretty submissive dogs and they are not DA whatsoever but I still keep and eye on them so if anyone tried to say that they attacked first then I have the upper hand whether not my dogs are pit bulls or not. I live on a military base and everyone knows my dogs and knows how sweet they are.but if it came down to it and my dogs ever got out of line I would not take them up there. Guam I'd rabies free and we take them for regular checkups so I'm not afraid that they will contract a disease or anything of that sort. Sorry for the long paragraph!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Loops the dog is NOW* people and dog aggressive and he is only 7 months old.

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## ames

macrae said:


> Oh no don't get me wrong we do take them on several walks, swims, and hikes. But I take them there to socialize them. A couple out here were looking for a pit bull so I found one for them and they never took him places or around other dogs, and unfortunately the dog is not people and dog aggressive. We don't take them up there as often now but when we do if I see an owner not watching after their dogs because they THINK they won't do anything I ask them to leave or go to the other side where they don't have to worry about their dogs biting mine. I have pretty submissive dogs and they are not DA whatsoever but I still keep and eye on them so if anyone tried to say that they attacked first then I have the upper hand whether not my dogs are pit bulls or not. I live on a military base and everyone knows my dogs and knows how sweet they are.but if it came down to it and my dogs ever got out of line I would not take them up there. Guam I'd rabies free and we take them for regular checkups so I'm not afraid that they will contract a disease or anything of that sort. Sorry for the long paragraph!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


glad you go to many areas. Its actually a REALLY bad place to socialize a dog, they will learn horrible manners and as your dog grows its really not worth the risk. read this is you have a minute: Ask Me How I Feel About Dog Parks.* (Here it comes.) - Higher Expectations (HEX) Dog Training & Behavior Modification

It's no secret to anyone who knows me in this industry that I am not a fan of dog parks, and that is putting it nicely. Actually, generally speaking I hate dog parks; I am in no way saying that the way I feel is the one & only way to feel and that everyone should feel that way too (am I ever saying that?), but I am throwing it out there for the record and taking this opportunity to explain myself.

I am laughing right now as I'm writing this, because I'm realizing that it is probably starting to look like I "hate" a lot of things... It's really just Flexi leashes & dog parks... (until next week when I have a whole other topic I forgot about to rant on!) Just kidding, but truly, I'm not a negative person. It's just these hot button issues!

Anyway, allow me to define dog park, in reference to what I am referring to here. A dog park is a fenced piece of property where dog owners get together legally to socialize. Socialize their dogs or socialize themselves? Hmmm.. A topic for discussion indeed. A dog park can also be unfenced, such as the W***** Center in the town over from me, and I much prefer that variety if I have to pick one, because it does, in theory, require owners to have enough control of their canines to let them off the leash without the benefit of the fence containing them. That (AGAIN, in theory) would lend itself to owners having verbal control of their dogs, hence a more advanced level of training in order to keep everyone safe. More on that later.

Whenever you close dogs in, literally or figuratively, tensions run higher. That's a fact, and any trainer worth their weight in salt will tell you the same thing. That applies to animals in general, probably including humans , too. When you close in a bunch of strange dogs (so I am not speaking about a denning scenario here), tensions run higher, meaning, stress levels are higher & dogs are more likely to squabble.

I am NOT saying that it is impossible to use the dog park responsibly. It just never seems to happen. Obviously, I am a professional dog trainer, which means I see the repercussions of this arguable fact walk through my facility's front door all the time. That ALONE will put a bad taste in your mouth eventually for the whole dog park idea in general. It's more than that, though. My main issues with the dog park are as follows, and I am mainly referring to the fenced variety.

People make the mistake all the time of taking their dogs to the dog park FOR exercise. This is a huge mistake. The dog park, if used responsibly, should be what comes AFTER you've taken the edge off your dog WITH physical exercise (and I mean more than the five minutes it takes you to walk from your vehicle to the gate of the dog park). When people use the dog park as their dog's source of physical exercise, what you end up with is a big group of strange dogs closed in together with eight hours or so of pent-up physical energy. That is a recipe for disaster by itself.

I totally disapprove of people who bring their dogs to the dog park with NO recall on their dog. What "no recall" means is that you are unable to reliably call your dog to you (including off of a distraction, up to & including: toys, sticks, people, kids, oh, I dunno, another dog...). I feel like this is often what happens: people bring their dog to a fenced-in dog park BECAUSE they have no recall on their dog. I am NOT accusing every single dog park proponent of this, but I know from experience that this is often the case. What if their is a squabble? Are you able to call your dog to you? If the answer is no, your dog shouldn't be off the leash in this setting.

It is frequently posted (and this varies by park) that children under a certain age aren't allowed there. This is a safety measure that some people don't heed. It is completely irresponsible to have your 13 year old child handling your dog in a dog park. I just want to say that out loud for the record, and AGAIN, that does not mean that I think every single human being that has ever visited a dog park is guilty of this infraction.

Also, and I have had multiple clients pick up on this after I mention it & reaffirm it, because it happens ALL the time. People frequently bring their dogs to the park, and then sit there with their coffees, phones, even LAP TOPS, fill in the blank, and aren't even watching as their dogs are off riding each other in the distance... Again, I am NOT accusing every single dog park user of this, but who can deny it happens with frequency? Any time dog owners are totally oblivious to their dogs' behavior, I take issue. Especially in this type of scenario, people miss the little red flags that prelude an actual fight, and when you miss those, all you see is the explosion, and then it's the classic "out of the blue!" (which, for the record, is bullsh*t, baring a brain tumor or neurological disorder; it's never "out of the blue." YOU just didn't see it coming.. especially if you were on your IPhone.)

There are no checks and balances at most (not ALL) dog parks. There is no one standing there with a clip board making sure your dog is vaccinated & healthy. Anybody, theoretically, can bring anything in there and no one is ever the wiser... until somebody gets sick. This is another reason not to bring dogs you've had for a matter of DAYS to the dog park... more on that in a few paragraphs. Of COURSE there are signs posted that your dog must be vaccinated, and many require licenses, but as anybody that's ever been to one can attest to, people frequently ignore every single thing that sign says. This becomes an even greater problem when lazy (or oblivious) owners don't clean up after their pets. It simply isn't the same as an indoor facility that is cleaned & sterilized at the end of the night. Does anybody remember all the circulating facebook posts of razor blades in cheese cubes and poisonous treats turning up in dog parks (and canine GI tracks)? Dog parks are frequented by many MANY dogs owned by irresponsible people (they are like moths to a flame when it comes to dog parks), and not everybody appreciates our beloved pets as much as we do... People with bad intentions (as evidenced above) are attracted to dog parks for the purpose of targeting dog owners in general, and it happens more often than you think.

People also do not realize - and this isn't exclusively "dog park people" - that canine behavior (and attitudes) change as dogs mature. That is not negative or positive. It just IS. Just because a young dog (1-2 years old even) is super tolerant of other dogs (or certain behaviors) does not mean that is going to stay that way, even if you, as an owner, change NOTHING. It does not surprise me in the LEAST when I get this phone call:

"All of a sudden, my dog doesn't seem to like other dogs.. He has started getting in fights at the park" to which I usually say, "Ok, how old is he? 18 months? 2? 3? 4?" There is nothing surprising about this to me, because I know that maturity is a factor, but dog owners in general are baffled by this. (I am in no way, shape, or form saying that maturing is an excuse for bad behavior; it isn't. But it should provide a little bit of insight. Are we the same people we were at 13? 17? 23 years old? Hope not... (Thank GAWD in my case!  And just because your dog was acting a certain way, or deferring to certain dogs, or tolerating certain behaviors, at 8 months old, doesn't mean this is going to stay that way, regardless of whether or not you change anything. Make sense?)

Now, this is not directed at any one person or organization. This is a general statement I am making, I am being completely honest, I stand behind it 100% and here it is: it is ASININE to me that people fostering dogs bring their foster dogs to the dog park, some within 48 hours of HAVING the dog. This is why: first of all, until a dog is adopted & released to the adopter, the rescue organization in charge of that dog is responsible and liable for that dog. IF there is an incident, whether or not the foster dog "started" it, if a bystander is bit in the process of breaking up a fight or any similar altercation, the rescue organization is liable for that. As one can plainly see, this is a terrible (and UNNECESSARY) position for a shelter/rescue organization to be in, a lawsuit waiting to happen, and in the cases where it has happened (and it does), the whole thing is completely preventable by being responsible and NOT bringing your foster dog to the dog park.

Beyond the liability factor, foster (and adopted) dogs take some time to adjust and "show their true colors." You couldn't possibly ascertain within 48 hours that your foster (or new) dog will be "fine" at the dog park. By bringing your brand-spanking-new adoptee or foster to the dog park, you are unnecessarily putting others at risk. You DON'T know what the dog's background is or how it will react in a given situation. You couldn't possibly know how it will respond because you can't possibly know the dog in that time frame, nor have you built a relationship where you have reliable control of that dog. Bringing a brand new dog or foster dog to the dog park demonstrates a total lack of knowledge to me. Lack of knowledge huge crime? No. But then again, if you are going to put yourself and your dog(s) in that position, you have the responsibility to GAIN the knowledge to know that isn't a good idea. It certainly isn't setting the dog up for success.

I am all for dog-on-dog socialization. It is not that I don't think dogs should have that, because I totally do. I think there are much smarter ways of going about it than to try your luck on any given day at the dog park. It can be a chore, but finding a responsible, reputable doggie-daycare can be a great option. I stress the "responsible, reputable" part, which will require some research. There are also great groups on Meetup.com for dog owners to socialize their dogs. Group training classes are a great place to start & make some friends, for you AND your dog. My dogs socialize with other dogs all the time... We meet up with friends (human & canine), take training classes (socialization doesn't always mean wrestling), they go, on occasion, to a reputable daycare that I totally trust, and the best: I train my dogs to a degree that I can have them hike with me off leash and we hang with like-minded folks (and dogs) who do the same. (People frequently say right here "Well, I don't KNOW any other dog owners like that." Sign up for a cool training class and you will. Meetup.com, again, is a great resource as well, although all groups cannot be created equal.)

In short, as you can see, I am NOT a dog park fan, and I don't utilize them with my own dogs. I have no idea why people place such an emphasis on having to have their dogs go to them, for all the reasons I cited above. I definitely will acknowledge that it's not impossible to use them responsibly, but by design, they don't lend themselves to responsible dog ownership, and there are a million other ways to socialize your dog. I won't begrudge anyone a good time that IS able to use the dog park responsibly, but I can't think of an instance I'd ever put my dogs in that situation, and I guess I have to say, I would never put my stamp of approval on one. Again, I'll reiterate one more time, I am NOT saying that everyone who goes to the dog park is the caliber person I described in this article, but you'd be the exception and not the rule.


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## macrae

ames said:


> glad you go to many areas. Its actually a REALLY bad place to socialize a dog, they will learn horrible manners and as your dog grows its really not worth the risk. read this is you have a minute: Ask Me How I Feel About Dog Parks.* (Here it comes.) - Higher Expectations (HEX) Dog Training & Behavior Modification
> 
> It's no secret to anyone who knows me in this industry that I am not a fan of dog parks, and that is putting it nicely. Actually, generally speaking I hate dog parks; I am in no way saying that the way I feel is the one & only way to feel and that everyone should feel that way too (am I ever saying that?), but I am throwing it out there for the record and taking this opportunity to explain myself.
> 
> I am laughing right now as I'm writing this, because I'm realizing that it is probably starting to look like I "hate" a lot of things... It's really just Flexi leashes & dog parks... (until next week when I have a whole other topic I forgot about to rant on!) Just kidding, but truly, I'm not a negative person. It's just these hot button issues!
> 
> Anyway, allow me to define dog park, in reference to what I am referring to here. A dog park is a fenced piece of property where dog owners get together legally to socialize. Socialize their dogs or socialize themselves? Hmmm.. A topic for discussion indeed. A dog park can also be unfenced, such as the W***** Center in the town over from me, and I much prefer that variety if I have to pick one, because it does, in theory, require owners to have enough control of their canines to let them off the leash without the benefit of the fence containing them. That (AGAIN, in theory) would lend itself to owners having verbal control of their dogs, hence a more advanced level of training in order to keep everyone safe. More on that later.
> 
> Whenever you close dogs in, literally or figuratively, tensions run higher. That's a fact, and any trainer worth their weight in salt will tell you the same thing. That applies to animals in general, probably including humans , too. When you close in a bunch of strange dogs (so I am not speaking about a denning scenario here), tensions run higher, meaning, stress levels are higher & dogs are more likely to squabble.
> 
> I am NOT saying that it is impossible to use the dog park responsibly. It just never seems to happen. Obviously, I am a professional dog trainer, which means I see the repercussions of this arguable fact walk through my facility's front door all the time. That ALONE will put a bad taste in your mouth eventually for the whole dog park idea in general. It's more than that, though. My main issues with the dog park are as follows, and I am mainly referring to the fenced variety.
> 
> People make the mistake all the time of taking their dogs to the dog park FOR exercise. This is a huge mistake. The dog park, if used responsibly, should be what comes AFTER you've taken the edge off your dog WITH physical exercise (and I mean more than the five minutes it takes you to walk from your vehicle to the gate of the dog park). When people use the dog park as their dog's source of physical exercise, what you end up with is a big group of strange dogs closed in together with eight hours or so of pent-up physical energy. That is a recipe for disaster by itself.
> 
> I totally disapprove of people who bring their dogs to the dog park with NO recall on their dog. What "no recall" means is that you are unable to reliably call your dog to you (including off of a distraction, up to & including: toys, sticks, people, kids, oh, I dunno, another dog...). I feel like this is often what happens: people bring their dog to a fenced-in dog park BECAUSE they have no recall on their dog. I am NOT accusing every single dog park proponent of this, but I know from experience that this is often the case. What if their is a squabble? Are you able to call your dog to you? If the answer is no, your dog shouldn't be off the leash in this setting.
> 
> It is frequently posted (and this varies by park) that children under a certain age aren't allowed there. This is a safety measure that some people don't heed. It is completely irresponsible to have your 13 year old child handling your dog in a dog park. I just want to say that out loud for the record, and AGAIN, that does not mean that I think every single human being that has ever visited a dog park is guilty of this infraction.
> 
> Also, and I have had multiple clients pick up on this after I mention it & reaffirm it, because it happens ALL the time. People frequently bring their dogs to the park, and then sit there with their coffees, phones, even LAP TOPS, fill in the blank, and aren't even watching as their dogs are off riding each other in the distance... Again, I am NOT accusing every single dog park user of this, but who can deny it happens with frequency? Any time dog owners are totally oblivious to their dogs' behavior, I take issue. Especially in this type of scenario, people miss the little red flags that prelude an actual fight, and when you miss those, all you see is the explosion, and then it's the classic "out of the blue!" (which, for the record, is bullsh*t, baring a brain tumor or neurological disorder; it's never "out of the blue." YOU just didn't see it coming.. especially if you were on your IPhone.)
> 
> There are no checks and balances at most (not ALL) dog parks. There is no one standing there with a clip board making sure your dog is vaccinated & healthy. Anybody, theoretically, can bring anything in there and no one is ever the wiser... until somebody gets sick. This is another reason not to bring dogs you've had for a matter of DAYS to the dog park... more on that in a few paragraphs. Of COURSE there are signs posted that your dog must be vaccinated, and many require licenses, but as anybody that's ever been to one can attest to, people frequently ignore every single thing that sign says. This becomes an even greater problem when lazy (or oblivious) owners don't clean up after their pets. It simply isn't the same as an indoor facility that is cleaned & sterilized at the end of the night. Does anybody remember all the circulating facebook posts of razor blades in cheese cubes and poisonous treats turning up in dog parks (and canine GI tracks)? Dog parks are frequented by many MANY dogs owned by irresponsible people (they are like moths to a flame when it comes to dog parks), and not everybody appreciates our beloved pets as much as we do... People with bad intentions (as evidenced above) are attracted to dog parks for the purpose of targeting dog owners in general, and it happens more often than you think.
> 
> People also do not realize - and this isn't exclusively "dog park people" - that canine behavior (and attitudes) change as dogs mature. That is not negative or positive. It just IS. Just because a young dog (1-2 years old even) is super tolerant of other dogs (or certain behaviors) does not mean that is going to stay that way, even if you, as an owner, change NOTHING. It does not surprise me in the LEAST when I get this phone call:
> 
> "All of a sudden, my dog doesn't seem to like other dogs.. He has started getting in fights at the park" to which I usually say, "Ok, how old is he? 18 months? 2? 3? 4?" There is nothing surprising about this to me, because I know that maturity is a factor, but dog owners in general are baffled by this. (I am in no way, shape, or form saying that maturing is an excuse for bad behavior; it isn't. But it should provide a little bit of insight. Are we the same people we were at 13? 17? 23 years old? Hope not... (Thank GAWD in my case!  And just because your dog was acting a certain way, or deferring to certain dogs, or tolerating certain behaviors, at 8 months old, doesn't mean this is going to stay that way, regardless of whether or not you change anything. Make sense?)
> 
> Now, this is not directed at any one person or organization. This is a general statement I am making, I am being completely honest, I stand behind it 100% and here it is: it is ASININE to me that people fostering dogs bring their foster dogs to the dog park, some within 48 hours of HAVING the dog. This is why: first of all, until a dog is adopted & released to the adopter, the rescue organization in charge of that dog is responsible and liable for that dog. IF there is an incident, whether or not the foster dog "started" it, if a bystander is bit in the process of breaking up a fight or any similar altercation, the rescue organization is liable for that. As one can plainly see, this is a terrible (and UNNECESSARY) position for a shelter/rescue organization to be in, a lawsuit waiting to happen, and in the cases where it has happened (and it does), the whole thing is completely preventable by being responsible and NOT bringing your foster dog to the dog park.
> 
> Beyond the liability factor, foster (and adopted) dogs take some time to adjust and "show their true colors." You couldn't possibly ascertain within 48 hours that your foster (or new) dog will be "fine" at the dog park. By bringing your brand-spanking-new adoptee or foster to the dog park, you are unnecessarily putting others at risk. You DON'T know what the dog's background is or how it will react in a given situation. You couldn't possibly know how it will respond because you can't possibly know the dog in that time frame, nor have you built a relationship where you have reliable control of that dog. Bringing a brand new dog or foster dog to the dog park demonstrates a total lack of knowledge to me. Lack of knowledge huge crime? No. But then again, if you are going to put yourself and your dog(s) in that position, you have the responsibility to GAIN the knowledge to know that isn't a good idea. It certainly isn't setting the dog up for success.
> 
> I am all for dog-on-dog socialization. It is not that I don't think dogs should have that, because I totally do. I think there are much smarter ways of going about it than to try your luck on any given day at the dog park. It can be a chore, but finding a responsible, reputable doggie-daycare can be a great option. I stress the "responsible, reputable" part, which will require some research. There are also great groups on Meetup.com for dog owners to socialize their dogs. Group training classes are a great place to start & make some friends, for you AND your dog. My dogs socialize with other dogs all the time... We meet up with friends (human & canine), take training classes (socialization doesn't always mean wrestling), they go, on occasion, to a reputable daycare that I totally trust, and the best: I train my dogs to a degree that I can have them hike with me off leash and we hang with like-minded folks (and dogs) who do the same. (People frequently say right here "Well, I don't KNOW any other dog owners like that." Sign up for a cool training class and you will. Meetup.com, again, is a great resource as well, although all groups cannot be created equal.)
> 
> In short, as you can see, I am NOT a dog park fan, and I don't utilize them with my own dogs. I have no idea why people place such an emphasis on having to have their dogs go to them, for all the reasons I cited above. I definitely will acknowledge that it's not impossible to use them responsibly, but by design, they don't lend themselves to responsible dog ownership, and there are a million other ways to socialize your dog. I won't begrudge anyone a good time that IS able to use the dog park responsibly, but I can't think of an instance I'd ever put my dogs in that situation, and I guess I have to say, I would never put my stamp of approval on one. Again, I'll reiterate one more time, I am NOT saying that everyone who goes to the dog park is the caliber person I described in this article, but you'd be the exception and not the rule.


Holy moly that's a lot of typing. You did have some very good points. I am in no way a dog trainer but my older dog Maggie does recall very well. I mainly use the dog park for training on the agility course that we have out here, and socialization. She knows the whole course and if there is another dog up at the park with us they usually see that we have pit bulls and go to the other side which really irritates me. We have a select few that we let her play with but mostly all are trained very well. We don't exactly have those kind of resources in Guam to be able too hold group training sessions and I'm sure not going to take my dog out in town with all the other grungy Guam boonies they have roaming around. I do understand where your coming from and will consider your opinion on taking my dogs to the park. And even when we do go there is hardly ever anyone up there cause they are pretty lazy out here. We have one dog trainer and he really sucks. Just wish we had more trainers who knew what they were talking about instead of throwing a chain link and your dogs feet

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## max's mom

No dog parks for us anymore....I have had Max for a year used to go to the dog park regularly and didn't have problems, well except that people are stupid and the dogs are untrained...Then one day another pitbull was at the park, both dogs were getting along just fine, until the other dog bit mine in the face...and he sent her to the hospital...Was it his fault, I say no...but of course the other "owner" (he wasn't her owner) was screaming at the two dogs making it worse instead of better..luckily she got just a few stitches and max had a few puncture wounds...but that was enough for me to realize dog parks are just not worth it... too much can happen in too little time and I just don't know enough about body language to see what might be happening, nevermind the really clueless other people who aren't even watching or listening...I at least watched and listened, might not know the subtle body language, but I do know when Max has had enough and when he is just too excited, I know my dog, but when there are 10 dogs in a park and 5 of the owners aren't even paying attention to theirs, it will always be the pitbull who gets blamed. I our case where it was two pitbulls, they ended up both looking bad, but no one cared because well they were both those kind of dogs... even though both owners were horrified at the situation and one owner decided it was not good to even set them up for failure and stopped the madness..the other dog still goes to the park..oh well, can't fix everyone!!


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## redog

macrae said:


> Holy moly that's a lot of typing. You did have some very good points. I am in no way a dog trainer but my older dog Maggie does recall very well. I mainly use the dog park for training on the agility course that we have out here, and socialization. She knows the whole course and if there is another dog up at the park with us they usually see that we have pit bulls and go to the other side which really irritates me. We have a select few that we let her play with but mostly all are trained very well. We don't exactly have those kind of resources in Guam to be able too hold group training sessions and I'm sure not going to take my dog out in town with all the other grungy Guam boonies they have roaming around. I do understand where your coming from and will consider your opinion on taking my dogs to the park. And even when we do go there is hardly ever anyone up there cause they are pretty lazy out here. We have one dog trainer and he really sucks. Just wish we had more trainers who knew what they were talking about instead of throwing a chain link and your dogs feet
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Are boonie dogs that big of a problem in Guam? The neighbor brought 2 home last time he was stationed there. Pretty awesome dogs for being ferrel previously


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## ames

macrae said:


> Holy moly that's a lot of typing. You did have some very good points. I am in no way a dog trainer but my older dog Maggie does recall very well. I mainly use the dog park for training on the agility course that we have out here, and socialization. She knows the whole course and if there is another dog up at the park with us they usually see that we have pit bulls and go to the other side which really irritates me. We have a select few that we let her play with but mostly all are trained very well. We don't exactly have those kind of resources in Guam to be able too hold group training sessions and I'm sure not going to take my dog out in town with all the other grungy Guam boonies they have roaming around. I do understand where your coming from and will consider your opinion on taking my dogs to the park. And even when we do go there is hardly ever anyone up there cause they are pretty lazy out here. We have one dog trainer and he really sucks. Just wish we had more trainers who knew what they were talking about instead of throwing a chain link and your dogs feet
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Wow yeah that sounds horrible. I wish you had more trainers than what you're describing as well. Are you able to look into groups to meet up so at least you know the owners. Not sure of Guam is like the US in regards to stupid laws. That's where I am coming from girl. So if it doesn't apply them my apologies and I hope more people become trainers by you. That's horrible to not have people who can help.

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## macrae

redog said:


> Are boonie dogs that big of a problem in Guam? The neighbor brought 2 home last time he was stationed there. Pretty awesome dogs for being ferrel previously


Boonies aren't a huge problem but the dogs that do not have home are there are hundreds that roam the streets and have all kinds of diseases. But for the most part people out here really don't care for their dogs like they should, out in town I mean not on the base

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## macrae

ames said:


> Wow yeah that sounds horrible. I wish you had more trainers than what you're describing as well. Are you able to look into groups to meet up so at least you know the owners. Not sure of Guam is like the US in regards to stupid laws. That's where I am coming from girl. So if it doesn't apply them my apologies and I hope more people become trainers by you. That's horrible to not have people who can help.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I have tried to look into some group training but the guy that is the main trainer out here uses a technique that I have seen for many dogs that doesn't work. So I take it upon myself to train my dogs, I'm not professional but my dogs are pretty well trained. And they have another option of taking and dropping your dog off and have the trainer work with them but I prefer to work with my dog myself. It does really suck that we don't have any reputable trainers but we are flying back in 4 months so I'm hoping to find a good trainer in Cali at our next duty station!

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## doubledee23

Last time I went to a dog park I almost got arrested, my dog is super playful and submissive but of course not all dogs are like that so that said my dog was playing around with an older pit, mind you mine is 5 months at the time. So they start running around and growling every once in a while when they started nibbling each others ears and this one guy comes and kicks my dog 3 times, so I push him and this whole thing broke loose and of course people called the cops and I was really about to whoop his ass! Now that said he wasn't even a dog owner at the park he was just there with his friend and his girlfriend, it was his first time ever coming to a dog park.

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## TheHiddenAngel

I wouldn't bring my dog to a dog park, EVER. Heck, I have enough problems with the stray dogs around my neighborhood. A park full of dogs and possibly owners who can't/won't control them is the last thing I need.


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## hwm

No dog parks for us Little dogs scare the heck out of my girl she will tuck tail and run thinking they are pups. \Aggressive one's are not tolerated, you have to be layed back and chilled for maggs to feel comfortable


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## LamLam

This is a really helpful thread - we live in a very small rural town and it has a beautiful off-leash area for dogs. I've always wanted to take Bam Bam there but this thread has made me realise he is not missing out by not running around with those other dogs. I guess this is my way of telling the city council I don't want to be invited to their stupid party anyway! Bam Bam is classified as a menacing breed in NZ, and also as a dangerous breed, so he is A: not allowed off-leash off his registered property, and B: meant to wear a muzzle in public. So instead of dog parks and walks around town, we run around on our neighbours farm in the paddocks that don't have livestock. Thank god for good neighbours!


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## LamLam

Just want to add that despite Bam Bam being classified as menacing and dangerous, my friend adopted one of the littermates and registered her as a sharpei cross. I should have been quicker thinking at registration time lol


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## ames

LamLam said:


> Just want to add that despite Bam Bam being classified as menacing and dangerous, my friend adopted one of the littermates and registered her as a sharpei cross. I should have been quicker thinking at registration time lol


Haha right! Who knows! Glad the breeds aren't banned, restrictions suck but at least you can enjoy your pup. And glad you realize your pup isn't missing out in anything! Dogs can still be dogs while leashed or controlled.

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## badandy

I do dog parks... no issues. dogs should play!


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## lovemybluegal

I do dog parks but watch who and what dogs are there. Some are breed phobic. 


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## EckoMac

An old member Sade posted this a long time ago. And it really hit home when I read it.

So I copied and pasted the original post and the link to the thread is underneath it.

"A Day At The Park

He is just like other dogs I would always say; He loves to go to 
the dog park to play every day

Everyone loves him there, so it's ok; My dog won't fight--he 
wasn't raised that way

But then one day, right before dark, A troubled young man 
came into the park

He had by his side the biggest dog I'd ever seen, And 
unfortunately for us, both were quite mean

We asked very nicely if they would just go; The dog answered 
with a snarl and the man with a harsh "NO!"

Well his dog was a terror, threatening to all; Then he started a 
fight with a Lab over a ball

They fought pretty hard and the man would not intervene; 
Then here comes my dog and pushes right in between

He grabbed that big dog and thrashed him around; And with 
one quick jerk threw him down on the ground

The Lab was able to escape; I heard everyone cheer; But my 
dog was now in a frenzy and would not let me near

When he finally let go, what I saw stopped my heart; That big 
mean dog had been torn apart

The authorities were called, the big dog was now dead; But 
they didn't take the big dog; they took my dog instead

We all tried to explain that my dog saved the day; But because 
of his breed he was taken away

You see my dog was a Pit bull and they don't get any breaks; 
One small incident is all that it takes

A dog had died; And though he hadn't started the fight, My dog 
was held responsible for what happened that night

He was deemed a danger to all and sentenced to death; And I 
hold him now as he takes his last breath

It's my fault that my dog is being killed today; Please listen for 
a moment to what I am going to say

Everyone warned me about his potential to fight; I said it won't 
happen, I am raising him right

And now my dog is paying the ultimate price; Because I was 
stubborn and wouldn't take the advice

He only did what he was bred to do; Learn from our story; 
don't let it happen to you."

http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/40966-day-park-poem-written-dog-park-lovers.html


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## Sandy.klo

I'm sorry but as someone that's worked at a Doggy daycare for years, this is incredibly offensive to me. Many of our best dogs are pitbull, and I've never had anything remotely similar to a dog 'changing his mind' that dogs are friends. Certainly new behaviors crop up between the age of 0 and 2, but dogs are dogs and they always tell you what they're capable of if you listen.
We've had to kick out a number if dogs, but we've actually never had to kick out a Pit, at least not since I've been there. I'm certainly not saying every APBT belongs at a dog park, or that ANY dog with high prey drive doesn't need to be monitored closely, and meet with a behaviorist to access behavior around other dogs. But it's stuff like this that leads to dog parks and daycares from banning all breeds, and so many of yours get and GIVE so much from being with Doggy pals that a I cannot not reply to this.
Maybe more pure-bred show line APBTs are dog aggressive, but some pits and Pit mixes can get on well with other dogs, and aren't all Pit advocates for judging a dog based on personality rather than Breed?
If we have elderly Pit mixes who have literally never had an incident at the park or daycare they regularly frequent (rare with any dog of any Breed!), how is it right to suggest they should no longer be a part of that enriching peice of their life because you are letting Breed trump personality?


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## Sandy.klo

Okay I confess I got angry and posted before finishing the OP. If the issue is with dog parks, I get that. I've been to afraid to takey girl to a dig park even though she's wonderful at daycare. I'm worried about the owners who think they have a friendly dog, but miss the subtleties of dog interaction.
I just to make we don't think the issue is friendly pits in a multidog environment. That can be wonderful. Dog parks are the issue not pits being dogs, that is what is being conveyed then?


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## BCdogs

Both. You have a breed with a genetic tendency toward dog aggression, that also has other specific traits that make fights even more potentially deadly, then you have an uncontrolled, chaotic environment. Bad combo.


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## Sandy.klo

Okay fair enough. I must say though a lot of Breed traits can make things more deadly. One of the reasons I'm afraid to take Wren to dog park: there have been TWO deaths at are local dog park, and it's a very good dig community. One was greyhound that grabbed and broke the neck of a small fluffy dog (if you're familiar with Breed, this will make sense.) I just feel strongly that any dog, pitbull or no, who socializes well with other dogs has the opportunity to do so in a controlled and relatively stable environment, although the environment may not be a dog park. I have heard that some dog parks are well poloced though, so I don't think it's quite right to condemn every Pit at every park, although I confess I'm leary of them in general.
One other thing: there is no breed that inheritely does well in a dog park. Labs are to hyper and over-bearing, Goldens too nerve-y, Boxers just insane in general, Collies try and herd. One of my worst bites was a Lab that got me accidentally trying to go after a Pit without provocation, my boyfriend briefly worked with me and his only noteworthy bite was from a Tree-Walking Hound that bite him HARD and ON PURPOSE that resulted in an ER visit.
My point is any Breed can be dog aggressive, or just aggressive, just as a dog of any breed can be great with dogs or humans.
That being said I'm not saying I think dog parks are a splendid or safe idea.


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## Sandy.klo

Please excuse my grammar still learning to type on my phone... apologies....


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## BCdogs

I'm anti-dog park in general, so I get what you're saying.


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## Kenaii

Sandy.klo said:


> .
> My point is any Breed can be dog aggressive, or just aggressive, just as a dog of any breed can be great with dogs or humans.
> That being said I'm not saying I think dog parks are a splendid or safe idea.


Sure, any dog can show aggression towards other animals, but that's not the point. As you probably know, all dog breeds are a product of selective breeding. Border Collies were bred to herd, Labs were bred to retrieve, Dobermans were bred to guard. The APBT is no different. Yet, people constantly deny the breed's heritage. The APBT was bred for dog on dog combat. Whether you like it or not, your dog's ancestors weren't "nanny dogs" or farm dogs. They were pit dogs.

Now, contrary to common belief pit dogs weren't really "trained" to fight. The fighting instinct was already there, embedded in the dog. I've heard of breeders having to separate APBT pups as young as 6 months old, because they kept squabbling. No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to undo centuries of selective breeding.

Does this mean that every APBT is dog aggression? No, of course not. But, these dogs are the exception, not the rule. You shouldn't be surprised when an APBT shows dog aggression, you should be surprised when he doesn't.

Now to throw some personal experience in here, let me tell you about my dog, Bindi. Bindi is a mutt. She wasn't bred for any purpose. She's a result of two random stray dogs deciding to do the dirty. As a puppy, I socialized her about as much as I possibly could. I introduced her to other dogs, let kids pet her, took her places, you get the point. Everything was great, until one day. I was introducing Bindi to a friend's shih tzu, when she decided he needed to die. She lunged at him, teeth bared and basically tried to eat him. I felt like an absolute failure as a dog owner. Like the little Victoria Stillwell wannabe I was, I decided to "rehabilitate" her.

Yeah. Bad idea. Bindi wanted no part of it. Bindi was still convinced that every dog in existence was terrible and needed to die. After several failed attempts, I realized that I wasn't getting anywhere. So, I ended up just training her to ignore other dogs and I stopped forcing her to interact with other animals. Worked like a charm.

My point is, if I can't get rid of dog aggression in my scatterbred mutt, how on earth could someone get rid of dog aggression in an APBT that comes from countless generations of fighting dogs?

Sorry for the wall of text. Got a little carried away.

tl;dr: always expect a bulldog to fight.


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## jttar

Thanks for taking the time to explain it Kenaii. Good post. Hopefully, it won't fall on deaf ears. 

Joe


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## Sandy.klo

Kenaii, I do totally get what you're saying. And I agree that pure-bred pits from a stringent breeding program are somewhat more likely to be dog-aggressive. I've seen this as well, absolutely.
You should also know many pure-bred herding breeds, high-strung breeds, and certain high-energy breeds are also less likely to be good with other dogs as well, not to mention Northern breeds whom are more pack oriented in a way that does not befit having casual dog friends, and any Breed with wild dog or wolf content. I've actually had to fail more dogs based on herding instincts than flat out dog aggression.
The reason in my opinion? Before any dogs were bred to be dog aggressive, there was millions of years that evolution 'bred' wolves and dogs to not try and kill any member of their species. Even a few thousand years of rigorous dog-aggressive breeding couldn't fully 'cancel' that out. The need to NOT kill every member of the dog family is too thoroughly engrained. Anyway, APBT s have only been around for a few hundred years, an incredibly new breed.
Also, most 'pits' I'm talking about were NOT rigorously bred. Maybe their ancestors of a hundreds years ago were for a few generations, but the even the everyday APBT is the result of back-yard breeding that gives no credence to gameness, or any other factor really. Most aren't even purebred.

Do I think an actual well-bred pure APBT, Bull Terrier or AmStaff is more likely to be dog aggressive. Yes. Is a pure-bred Border Collie even more likely to be unsuitable for other dogs because of their intense herding instincts? Also yes.
However, most current breeds are very new in terms of evolution, ESPECIALLY pits, and evolution can never be fully cancelled out, not even close in a few hundred years. I recognize that some Pit dogs may be dog-aggressive despite the best possible environmental factors, but if we're talking ALL pits, this is NOT the norm.

It is also my belief that the characteristics that made pits able to fight well was just as often a willingness to follow their human, whatever was asked, or a high prey drive paired with high-energy and game. These traits would occur much more often than a desire to kill every member of his or her species, a trait that would be very uncommon due to it making it more or less impossible to pass on one's DNA.

I have many personal anecdotes as well, too many to type, but I'd be happy to share some if you would like. I'm sorry that you happen to have one if the few unlucky mixes that happens to have pure dog-aggression, despite perfect socialization. I know this sometimes occurs, and can with any Breed, but it is not the norm.

This being said, any breeds characteristics should always be kept in mind, as well as a breeds intended purpose.

Tl;Dr; Evolution millions of years in the making is not going to be written over in a few hundred years of crappy breeding.
Give me a few hundred years of the most strict breeding, I still won't be able to create a green dog...


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## Kenaii

Sandy.klo said:


> Kenaii, I do totally get what you're saying. And I agree that pure-bred pits from a stringent breeding program are somewhat more likely to be dog-aggressive. I've seen this as well, absolutely.
> You should also know many pure-bred herding breeds, high-strung breeds, and certain high-energy breeds are also less likely to be good with other dogs as well, not to mention Northern breeds whom are more pack oriented in a way that does not befit having casual dog friends, and any Breed with wild dog or wolf content. I've actually had to fail more dogs based on herding instincts than flat out dog aggression.
> The reason in my opinion? Before any dogs were bred to be dog aggressive, there was millions of years that evolution 'bred' wolves and dogs to not try and kill any member of their species. Even a few thousand years of rigorous dog-aggressive breeding couldn't fully 'cancel' that out. The need to NOT kill every member of the dog family is too thoroughly engrained. Anyway, APBT s have only been around for a few hundred years, an incredibly new breed.
> Also, most 'pits' I'm talking about were NOT rigorously bred. Maybe their ancestors of a hundreds years ago were for a few generations, but the even the everyday APBT is the result of back-yard breeding that gives no credence to gameness, or any other factor really. Most aren't even purebred.
> 
> Do I think an actual well-bred pure APBT, Bull Terrier or AmStaff is more likely to be dog aggressive. Yes. Is a pure-bred Border Collie even more likely to be unsuitable for other dogs because of their intense herding instincts? Also yes.
> However, most current breeds are very new in terms of evolution, ESPECIALLY pits, and evolution can never be fully cancelled out, not even close in a few hundred years. I recognize that some Pit dogs may be dog-aggressive despite the best possible environmental factors, but if we're talking ALL pits, this is NOT the norm.
> 
> It is also my belief that the characteristics that made pits able to fight well was just as often a willingness to follow their human, whatever was asked, or a high prey drive paired with high-energy and game. These traits would occur much more often than a desire to kill every member of his or her species, a trait that would be very uncommon due to it making it more or less impossible to pass on one's DNA.
> 
> I have many personal anecdotes as well, too many to type, but I'd be happy to share some if you would like. I'm sorry that you happen to have one if the few unlucky mixes that happens to have pure dog-aggression, despite perfect socialization. I know this sometimes occurs, and can with any Breed, but it is not the norm.
> 
> This being said, any breeds characteristics should always be kept in mind, as well as a breeds intended purpose.
> 
> Tl;Dr; Evolution millions of years in the making is not going to be written over in a few hundred years of crappy breeding.
> Give me a few hundred years of the most strict breeding, I still won't be able to create a green dog...


 Of course. Dogs are social animals and, to an extent will always display those social behaviors. The thing is, the APBT can show those behaviors, but is also likely to show dog aggression. I am not saying that an APBT is incapable of being friendly with other dogs, I'm simply saying that you can't really know when an APBT is going to act like a social pack animal or a fighting dog. And you can't really know until it's too late. Because of this, it just too risky to put your dog in that position.


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## Sandy.klo

Respectfully, I disagree. A lot of people on these forums have 'pits' that are of questionable bloodline, or mixed breeds and even of those that are solid bloodline APBTs, many of them would do great in a multidog environment.
I can't help but think you are personally biased based on your experience with Bindi. Certainly, sometimes a well socialized dog will start displaying new aggressive tendencies once reaching adulthood, but it is generally mild and 'curable,' and I have never ever seen anything even close to what you say happened with Bindi. To be honest, I think there must be SOMETHING you are missing in regards to her sudden and complete transformation from dog-friendly to dog-aggressive... When dogs begun displaying new dominant or aggressive traits because of the onset of adulthood, it is usually VERY gradual.
I've seen hundreds of puppies grow into full fledged adults, and pits don't do it any differently than the other breeds. They have high energy, and are very into leadership, like many of the breeds, both traits have their own set of obstacles, and some dogs of every breed may BECOME incompatible with multi dog environment when they reacted well as a young adult. In my experience it's actually more likely to be the working dogs rather than any dog of the Terrier class.
What I'm saying is any dog of certain breed may have breed-specific qualities that make the dog unable to socialize with multiple dogs at once, but that doesn't mean none should. It means it should be done carefully, and with great care.
People often mention to me how dogs are so 'unpredictable.' This is NOT so. People who say this are people that have little insight into the language of dogs. I absolutely don't believe that any well-behaved dog of any Breed will 'snap' out of nowhere and go crazy with aggression, and I have never ever been proved wrong. There are many Pit clients I work with that U would stake my life upon never fighting another dog. In my years working in a multidog environment, not one of those pits or the other dogs I feel the same about has done so.

That being said I'm not sure I support the average dog park for any dog, I just think it's wrong to tell people that their dog who has displayed a consistent pattern for years may all of a sudden decide it wants to kill other dogs. That is not true.


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## Sandy.klo

I'm sorry to type so much but this is ludicrous to me. I wouldn't allow any pro-BSL folks to tell me you can never know when a Pit will become aggressive, and I'm sorry, but I'm not okay with a Pit owner saying it either.
When owning ANY large powerful dog you need to be aware of your dogs limitations, cautious, knowledge about factors that may cause changes (such as age), and above all you need to know your dog.
I'm very sorry if things happened with Bindi like you claim, that she all of a sudden out of nowhere, in one very very short time period went from loving all dogs to wanting to kill all of them. However, I suspect there is more to it, or at the very least some exaggeration. I respect that you want to warn other people about a fear you have, but at the very least you need to understand that if things happened like you said with Bindi, that is so uncommon it's almost unheard of.
Can dogs become aggressive? Sure. If you take the appropriate precautions is it still safe to allow your dog to socialize in very controlled environment? Heck yes.


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## Kenaii

Sandy.klo said:


> I'm sorry to type so much but this is ludicrous to me. I wouldn't allow any pro-BSL folks to tell me you can never know when a Pit will become aggressive, and I'm sorry, but I'm not okay with a Pit owner saying it either.
> When owning ANY large powerful dog you need to be aware of your dogs limitations, cautious, knowledge about factors that may cause changes (such as age), and above all you need to know your dog.
> I'm very sorry if things happened with Bindi like you claim, that she all of a sudden out of nowhere, in one very very short time period went from loving all dogs to wanting to kill all of them. However, I suspect there is more to it, or at the very least some exaggeration. I respect that you want to warn other people about a fear you have, but at the very least you need to understand that if things happened like you said with Bindi, that is so uncommon it's almost unheard of.
> Can dogs become aggressive? Sure. If you take the appropriate precautions is it still safe to allow your dog to socialize in very controlled environment? Heck yes.


Oh boy. Where do I begin?

First of all, I'm not "Pro BSL". I absolutely love this breed. Just because I'm willing to admit that the APBT has certain tendencies, doesn't mean I love the breed any less. For Christ's sake, it's in the _breed standard_ for an APBT to show some level of dog aggression.

Of course any dog can develop dog aggression, APBTs are just much more likely to display it. Why? Because they were bred specifically for fighting. Not all of them display it, but most do. It's a very common trait in the breed and it always has been.

I didn't exaggerate my story about Bindi at all. As for it being uncommon, similar things have happened with other dogs I've owned and I've heard countless stories of it happening to other people. In drivey dogs, it's far from uncommon. Bindi's a great dog and I love her to death, but if I unhooked her leash and another dog happened to walk by, she'd go after the dog without hesitating. Same thing would happen with a cat, rabbit or any other animal. Luckily, I'm a (mostly) competent dog trainer and I know how to handle her.

Again, I'm not saying all APBTs are dog aggressive. I'm simply saying that it is a very common trait in the breed and as a responsible owner, you shouldn't be surprised when/if it pops up.


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## redog

Sandy, I'm not saying your dog is agressive or not. You may handle the dog just fine, but don't think for a minute that if another dog started something with yours, your dog will step up and finish it. Then you are responsible and your animal is just another statistic and worse.... Not to mention your wallet will be a whole lot emptier


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## Sandy.klo

Redog- I think maybe you misconstrued what I was saying. My dog is leash reactive, so I'm definitely not saying she would never start a fight. She totally would in certain circumstances.
Actually multiple times dogs have started fights with her; I work at a doggy daycare, dogs scuffle. She holds her own okay in general, but hasn't ever tried to inflict damage, I step in, never has there been a mark on either dog.
The only thing I've been trying to say is that every dog is different, and what's important is knowing your dog's limitations and risk factors, but still always proceeding with caution and maintaining control of the environment. Although I'm always cautious and watch closely, I don't really worry about her starting fights and whatnot at work, because she doesn't, and when other dogs start things, she will let me finish them. I am also very aware of her limitations, and will not allow her to ever interact with other dogs on leash, because she has displayed some aggression in the past.

All I'm saying is that every dog is different, and Breed really doesn't seem to provide clear cut information to determine how interactions will go.


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## Sandy.klo

Kenai- I do agree that pure-bred APBTs from a good bloodline are more likely to be dog-aggressive, I've never disagreed with that. We might differ on how much more likely, but that's absolutely not my point.
I'm sure Bindi is an amazing loving wonderful dog! Just because a dog is animal-aggressive, that means nothing about who they are inside.
Also I know your not pro BSL. I'm saying I'm not comfortable with ANYONE saying that pits are unpredictable and may snap.
I believe you saying that one may never know when or if a given Pit will wake up one day and try to kill other dogs is a very dangerous thing to say. Many say the same thing about pits with humans, children, etc. 
All I'm saying is that every dog is much more than the sum of their breeding. It factors in, but I've met many human-aggressive Labs, many dog-friendly pits, and even some Border Collies who don't herd. You can't simply say that a certain tried and tested dog is likely to all of a sudden 'snap' and behave exactly the opposite based on Breed alone.
At my work, we treat every knew or young dog like they may BECOME violent, but then we get to know that Dog, as an adult, and they show us who they are. That is the way things should be done with any dog, regardless of breed, should you want to have your dog in a given environment.


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## redog

Sandy, I agree to an extent! But not everyone who owns this breed or a mix of such is neither smart enough or capable of or even being aware of these tendencies, therefore it IS irresponsible to suggest these dogs go to a dog park. The fact is, never trust them not to fight. The first rule in being a responsible pit bull dog owner&#55357;&#56841;


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## Sandy.klo

That's definitely something I can agree with! I'm not advocating for dogs parks for any breed. I have mixed feelings, but I don't think they're the safest places, and even if you did you know your own dog's limitations, the dog park isn't really an environment you can control.
I was just concerned the wording made it seem that no Pit could be a trustworthy player in any multidog environment, like a training class, or a Doggy daycare, or even a responsible multidog play date, because of the dog's Breed, and was concerned that might send the wrong message.


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## bernabe

There's this video that I saw on social media the other day a pit fighting a husky. Don't know the story behind that but it makes our pits image worse. We can't control what others will say to us we just need to prove that our pits are fine and there's nothing to be afraid or be concerned of.


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## Lokipup

I take Loki to the dog park all the time, but this thread is definitely making sense and I think I am changing my mind on a dog park. I am glad I took him because he has definitely learned to socialize with other dogs in the 3 months that we've had him, he has learned some ropes and enjoyed playing with other pups. He is 6mo old and is getting older, and I am considering not taking him there anymore. He now has a little scar on his eyebrow and on his ear from other dogs snapping at him when he just wanted to play. Also, it terrifies me to think that there always that one time when something goes wrong on either part- and I will lose him. Even if it is .0005%, it's a percent big enough for me.
Our dog park is very pit friendly and there are a lot of pits and mixes there, mostly rescues, so nobody is shocked when I bring my Loki there (he's a pit mix, btw). He sometimes plays a little rough, but so do other breeds and the owners are never upset or anything. However, we did some scary experiences there that are making me change my mind.

Beagles...they are DA as HECK and pretty much every one of them at the park has tried to attack my pup aggressively. I worry that he will get hurt and that their dog will get hurt as well. But guess whose fault it will be? Ofcourse, not a cute dough eyed beagle! Loki just avoids them for now and when there is one, he just runs away and plays with other dogs, but they are persistent and you ever know when he will get tired of running away.

BAD owners...Everyone was enjoying the dog park when two enormous pits barge in- cropped ears, huge muscles, no collar or tags or anything. The owners just slowly walk in behind them. One pit a size of a tank runs up to Loki playing with his friend and starts attacking the friend on the legs. Not play fighting, full on attack. My SO picked up Loki in his arms and pushed the pit away from the doggie he was attacking which was screaming and on his back. Loki was freaked out and the pit was jumping up on my SO, trying to get to my pup. He was actually nipping at my SO's shirt sleeve. My SO is a 6'1 muscular guy and the pit was reaching his shoulder level. People were scared, and the owner goes "don't be kicking my dog". WTF???? My SO doesn't like confrontation and just ignored, while others were like "he wasn't, he was saving those dogs from yours." They huffed and puffed and walked away, with the huge pits running behind them. I am fairly certain they were not registered, didn't have shots, park registration, a single day of training-nothing. It was horrifying. There are rules and regulations posted right there, but some people are rude inconsiderate assholes that won't even read them.

People with kids. I was at the park and Loki was running around with his friends when the latch door opens and in walks a family of 5, with 2 little kids. All the dogs run up to the door and Loki, being a pup, starts jumping on a kid and trying to lick. He is a sweetest dog, but he is a puppy and unfortunately I can't socialize him with kids since I don't have any and don't really have any friends near me who have them (nor do I want to take him to a playground to learn, lol). I am training him off jumping right now, so he doesn't do it with adults that much anymore, but kids are a different game. The kid was crying, Loki was all hyped up cause he wanted to play. Then there was a guy sitting on a bench who looked at me like I just murdered his first born. He was staring at me with a ANGRY off look before and was getting NASTY when Loki came up, being a friendly ham as he is, trying to get pets. Even though his medium sized dog was going for my hands earlier and it made me very uncomfortable. I said "he just wanted to play" and he was like "well, they don't know that." Well, then maybe they shouldn't be taking little kids into a dog park filled with mostly large energetic dogs who could even knock your kid to the ground while being rambunctious! Not to mention that they just opened the DARN gate without any warning, with all the dogs standing next to it. Ofcourse they had a little fluffy dog that Loki wanted to play with, but I took him away.

At any rate, I am definitely now very wary of dog parks and while I'm glad that Loki got to experience it, I would rather not take him there when he is older. Maybe even now.


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## raemei

I have taken both my dogs to dog parks many times, though the parks we go to usually don't have many dogs in them. They don't really like dog parks, because they only really want to play with each other. Where we go often though is the dog beach, where they occasionally find a great dog or dogs to join in on a game of fetch. Most often though, we play our own game of fetch and if other dogs are getting in our space we "be boring" and sit until they lose interest, then we move down the beach and resume our game of fetch. 

I definitely agree that taking pit type breeds to dog parks who can get in trouble is terrible for the breed, but when you have a genuinely good dog who avoids conflict I think that going to parks can be okay. I am always watching my dogs and every other dog around my dogs, and can read body language very well. Little dogs often go after my AmStaff on walks, but generally he's safe at dog parks since those aggressive little guys are not usually there! 

Little dogs are the ones I look out for with my staffy, and big dogs are the ones I have to look out for with my golden mix. He's been chased down by German Shepherds that were leashed and got away. My staffy was standing next to me and my other dog, crying, as I held the shepherds at bay and managed to pick up my golden mix (50 pounds), then the three of us went to the car which happened to be close by. I put my golden mix on the roof as the shepherds' owner caught up to grab them. My staffy was darted after once by one of the German Shepherds, but ran away just enough so that the shepherd turned back to my other dog. 

My point is that no matter where you go, even if other dogs are leashed, you may not be safe. The dog parks here that I've experienced have very good reputations though and I've only seen a couple minor "fights" between dogs that were friends prior to the park. None of these were pit types, and the dogs were always fine within less than a minute after establishing their dominance. I've found that the dogs people bring to the parks I go to are not DA. I do my best to avoid conflicts with my dogs, but I also want them to enjoy life to its fullest. And the beach is their favorite place in the world!


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