# Amstaffs are present in gamelines



## tacomabandit (Jul 23, 2010)

If you have a dog that is heavy Patricks red baby good amount of amstaff(tacoma). Dogs down from bodzianowski's flash bred to amstaffs(tacoma). Kingfish part amstaff(tacoma). Fox's Alvin the dog was half ruffian amstaff. And Carver has been reported as having used selected amstaffs in some of his breedings though not documented. There are probaly more that I do not know of. And not all amstaffs are bred for show. There are still so bred for the original purpose.Or at least to exhibit the original traits.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Very true. This is what Randy Fox says about Alvin:


> My alvin dog had one quarter amstaff blood the other three fourths was pretty good stuff. Alvin produced lots of winners that whipped lots of popular bloodlines of his era. Most of his but not all of his pups were game. Probably around a ninety percent showing of gameness which is unheard of today.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Alvin and Randy Fox









Randy Fox, Alvin, and his daughter









Bonnie off of Alvin and a cur dog

Randy also says:


> *Alvin was so popular that people from several countries flew to American and came to my home and tried to buy him and or his offsprings. I, not like many so called top dogmen. Refused to sell anything to anyone from another country. I have my policies and that was one of them. Laugh at me if you like. That is just me and my standards...**Earl Tudor who was at pitside said Alvin was the best dog he had seen in 40 years and Danny Burton's dog was a good second. Cecil Pond who is a fine man refereed that fight. He said the same thing about Alvin that Earl Tudor said but added he had only seen one other fight that had pitdogs of that quality and he saw lots of fights.*











Fox's Sissy off of Alvin and Bess

This is purely historical information. Randy Fox no longer fights dogs.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> This is purely historical information. Randy Fox no longer fights dogs.


Yeh, he makes that abundantly clear on his website.:rofl:

I don't know how many breeders these days would be breeding game amstaffs on purpose but I have no doubt they exist. Not every APBT is game and not every Amstaff is just a show pony.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> Yeh, he makes that abundantly clear on his website.:rofl:
> 
> I don't know how many breeders these days would be breeding game amstaffs on purpose but I have no doubt they exist. _*Not every APBT is game and not every Amstaff is just a show pony.*_


lol I probably would too after Boudreaux. 
:goodpost::goodpost:


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## tacomabandit (Jul 23, 2010)

gamedogs are where you find them. if there was a half amstaff dog that showed good in tests i would give him a shot if it were legal to do so. there are still some amstaff breeders that dont breed show dogs. one such person is harold card. He breeds some of the purist tacoma dogs out there. but he dosent participate in shows. reason 1 his dogs are of the original temperment. reason 2 he very seldom whelps a show worth specimen. Due to the fact that he dosent breed for looks. If I could i would get a few off of him.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Tacoma was from Corviono/Colby, Colby/Dibo... etc.. APBTs so technically the orignal AM Staff came from APBTs and Tacoma bred back into APBTs only gives APBTs a good washout of blood bred different for APBTs and adds sound temperment and better performance to the AmStaff when APBT is crossed over.. WHY because the Amstaff comes from APBTs Colby, Nebbletts, Corvino, Heinzl, Lightner... ALL THE AKC stock started from these fellas pretty much with other included of course but essentially it was from the pit stock of a few fellas, and the only reason the name is AmStaff is Politics.. and money invested ... aka PRIDE. AKC doesnt breed performance AST like ADBA does APBTs now does it? SO NO... AMSTAFF lines are NOT present in game lines because TACOMA was a PIT BULL registered by any other name 

This amstaff http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=15183 is a far cry from whats being pushed as AST today..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> Tacoma was from Corviono/Colby, Colby/Dibo... etc.. APBTs so technically the orignal AM Staff came from APBTs and Tacoma bred back into APBTs only gives APBTs a good washout of blood bred different for APBTs and adds sound temperment and better performance to the AmStaff when APBT is crossed over.. WHY because the Amstaff comes from APBTs Colby, Nebbletts, Corvino, Heinzl, Lightner... ALL THE AKC stock started from these fellas pretty much with other included of course but essentially it was from the pit stock of a few fellas, and the only reason the name is AmStaff is Politics.. and money invested ... aka PRIDE. AKC doesnt breed performance AST like ADBA does APBTs now does it? SO NO... AMSTAFF lines are NOT present in game lines because TACOMA was a PIT BULL registered by any other name


 Tell it bro :goodpost:


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> Tacoma was from Corviono/Colby, Colby/Dibo... etc.. APBTs so technically the orignal AM Staff came from APBTs and Tacoma bred back into APBTs only gives APBTs a good washout of blood bred different for APBTs and adds sound temperment and better performance to the AmStaff when APBT is crossed over.. WHY because the Amstaff comes from APBTs Colby, Nebbletts, Corvino, Heinzl, Lightner... ALL THE AKC stock started from these fellas pretty much with other included of course but essentially it was from the pit stock of a few fellas, and the only reason the name is AmStaff is Politics.. and money invested ... aka PRIDE. AKC doesnt breed performance AST like ADBA does APBTs now does it? SO NO... AMSTAFF lines are NOT present in game lines because TACOMA was a PIT BULL registered by any other name
> 
> This amstaff ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [15183] :: RUFFIAN OUR TEENIE is a far cry from whats being pushed as AST today..


:goodpost:I learn so much from your posts Stan.Please don't ever quit this forum!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [104063] :: AGATA' BLOODY MARY

^^ Look at all the game APBTs in this AKC ped! LOL I would like to see HOW MUCH MORE APBT they ARE tobad it says UNKNOWN all over the place, good clue those are ADBA or UKC game strains; that would take away from the AST prestige..


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## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

I highly doubt there is anyone breeding a gamebred AST. I know there are people breeding working AmStaffs, but they aren't what I would consider game. I am a fan of the Tacoma bloodline and it has been discussed before here. http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/9720-tacoma-where-you.html
.


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## salentes (Feb 18, 2011)

hi i have just joined. interesting reading your comments about the amstaff being game.

correct me if im wrong but the amstaff has been bred for over 80 years for conformation standards. not for the pit.

bred only for looks ie size colour not for game as dog men breed for in their lines. 

maybe a chance the amstaff may have game, not denying it.
you would have to gametest the amstaff.

remember it was not bred for the pit


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> remember it was not bred for the pit


Tis true tis true, however it WAS bred FROM the "Pit" if you will allow me the term. I don't know anyone personally doing this but why would it be hard to conceive. If you can take a working dog to show standards, why cant you take the show standard and bring the working dog back out. All it would take is some consistent breeding and some testing? I mean, this is how things get done. Its how breeds emerge and get "perfected".......or perverted!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Andy I agree you could take show stock to working stock and overtime through culling, and game testing produce game dogs. But what would be the point? The Amstaff is now a show dog. And IMO they need to stay show dogs. If (hypothetically) speaking you were breeding for the box today would you want to use show dogs in your breeding program? No you would go with proven working stock. Who cares if you have staff's out there that can still perform they were taken in a different direction and I guess what I am trying to say is people should accept that ( Not you Andy) Just saying I don't think any legit dog man today would be using show staffs for the box because they are not bred for that. They would use the working dogs bred from the same game lines that have been used for years.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Hey Im with you, I have no idea why anyone would want to do that??? Just saying its more than possible. My thoughts are, if you want a working dog why not just start with that. Get an APBT and not am AMSTAFF. I wouldn't do it and I don't know anyone doing it. Just seems like alot of headache and hassle to get something that already exist.....


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree 1000% it can be done but why would anyone want to. It doesn't make sense. But I guess people will try anything to prove a point. LOL I hear people saying well not all amstaff's lack gameness and working ability. But when I hear that I ask myself why does it matter anyway? The show dog was taken in a different direction so the idea was to breed away those traits more specifically gameness. And without testing for it either way you can only speculate. I am with you on everything your saying I guess I am just pointing out that the staff is a show dog so people shouldn't worry about them being game they are no longer bred for that purpose. If you want a working dog get a working dog from working stock like you already said.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Yes it would be ill advised to start out with an Amstaff and try to get it back to being a box dog in this day and age. However, I'm sure it's been done (at least attempted) just to prove a point and I don't mean just the early Amstaffs that were still tested and matched. People do all sorts of stupid things to prove themselves right.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that all Amstaffs are as game as any purpose bred APBT but as I said in my first post, not every APBT is game and not every Amstaff is just a show pony.


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## tacomabandit (Jul 23, 2010)

this thread isnt about amstaffs being game per se. its about amstaffs in some notable gamedogs peds. most occured in the 70's andd 80's. and if what ive heard about carver is true there may be hell of a lot more out there.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

So are we actually discussing anything or did you answer your own question in your first post?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> Tacoma was from Corviono/Colby, Colby/Dibo... etc.. APBTs so technically the orignal AM Staff came from APBTs and Tacoma bred back into APBTs only gives APBTs a good washout of blood bred different for APBTs and adds sound temperment and better performance to the AmStaff when APBT is crossed over.. WHY because the Amstaff comes from APBTs Colby, Nebbletts, Corvino, Heinzl, Lightner... ALL THE AKC stock started from these fellas pretty much with other included of course but essentially it was from the pit stock of a few fellas, and the only reason the name is AmStaff is Politics.. and money invested ... aka PRIDE. AKC doesnt breed performance AST like ADBA does APBTs now does it? SO NO... AMSTAFF lines are NOT present in game lines because TACOMA was a PIT BULL registered by any other name
> 
> This amstaff ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [15183] :: RUFFIAN OUR TEENIE is a far cry from whats being pushed as AST today..


:goodpost: I was just about to say the same thing. I see it all the time where someone is looking at peds then they find Amstaff and say that dog is a pitterstaff. Well if you go back far enough in the peds you will find AST in many of them since back then those dogs were the foundation stock of the AST we know today. I HATE when someone looks a ped and calls a APBT mixed because back in the 10 generation they see AST that was one of the foundation dogs. It shows ignorance on their part yet I see it all the time on forums.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

OP you answered yourself... what was the point if I missed it... Yes there is AST in generations back in some game line APBT... You have to know that already being they both came from the same place the only difference is they were bred in different directions....


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

theres no way to really judge and apbt as it would need to be judged in this day cause [] dogs is looked down upon. there was somewhat of an outline but that couldnt cut it and the APBT was allowed in the AKC, so they basically just changed the name for show and over the YEARS a lot of traits have been bred out of the true apbt to make the staffy what it is today. so of coarse there is going to be a lot of game bred dogs in am. staff peds. am staff's wouldnt be here without the old game dog lines

hopefully what i just said applies to the discussion its a lil all over the place. not sure if it was a retorical post or not lol


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## tacomabandit (Jul 23, 2010)

if there were a proven amstaff today would any of yall use it. say it came tested stock and all. I hear a lot of people saying its been 80 years since an amstaff has seeen a pit. but that is not the case. there probaly have been some in the pit as late as yesterday. if the stock was only registered AKC and not bred for looks only for the past 40 years or so. wouldnt it be possible to have ro nice game amstaffs. even though it would be in name only. i'd take a apbt/amstaff over a apbt or amstaff any day. for the simple reason of more genetic diversity. I would love to take a heavy tacoma dog from a guy like harold card(not tested but bred to show good signs) to a heavy rbj dog. i think that cross would make a great bulldog. And the genetic diversity would possibly make a healthier dog.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Tacomabit... if the dogs that built Tacoma say PITBULL and they are CH [] dogs and UKC was BEFORE AKC then its safe to say that ASTs that appear in such paperwork are those dogs registered in 2 or 3 ADBA, AKC, UKC .. as they were the founding stock... I see pure nebbletts litters split and registered 3 ways, so now what? Just adds to what Nizmo just revamped on.. It was APBT before it was AST .. so unless I see a current AST in a Tombstone ped, or a Dibo ped, well it doesnt hold much water.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

tacomabandit said:


> if there were a proven amstaff today would any of yall use it. say it came tested stock and all. I hear a lot of people saying its been 80 years since an amstaff has seeen a pit. but that is not the case. there probaly have been some in the pit as late as yesterday. if the stock was only registered AKC and not bred for looks only for the past 40 years or so. wouldnt it be possible to have ro nice game amstaffs. even though it would be in name only. i'd take a apbt/amstaff over a apbt or amstaff any day. for the simple reason of more genetic diversity. I would love to take a heavy tacoma dog from a guy like harold card(not tested but bred to show good signs) to a heavy rbj dog. i think that cross would make a great bulldog. And the genetic diversity would possibly make a healthier dog.


yeah,, you take a Mayday dog and register it as an AST.. !! LOL or a ELI dog would workd too! buahahhahahaha big chest big head, all game.. :woof: then you would have a CURRENT game bred AST... <<< thats how they GOT THE FIRST AMSTAFFs!!!!!!!!! Papered game dogs and the litters of with a different name.. not rocket science, and Carver rung a lot of dogs to hide what he was doing with his breeding regiment, he rung swinfords with carver papers and now we have non game blue carver and boudreaux dogs with CH in their 4-7, LOL whatever... people


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

3 way registered Bloodline right here! ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [37964] :: NEBLETT'S BLACK BOBO Follow the steps and you will find current dogs in all 3 registeries! THERE ARE MANY MANY MORE!


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## Diggit (Jan 24, 2011)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Alvin and Randy Fox
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this dog is in my male "mase" way back there.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

tacomabandit said:


> this thread isnt about amstaffs being game per se. its about amstaffs in some notable gamedogs peds. most occured in the 70's andd 80's. and if what ive heard about carver is true there may be hell of a lot more out there.


the majority were not 70's and 80's dogs,that was reefer madness and disco.
they came,in m ajority to this country, and were bred to refinement here.theirs some that still today will tear the as$ out of A bull doin 60,heck,I had a lab that went for more than 15 min.(my little brother was 12,he made A big mistake) with A pit,granted he was 80# the pit 40,yet reality speaks volumes.
whats the old sayin,you can take the dog outta the fight,you can't take the fight outta the dog.they've all got A recessive,dormant trait that sometimes wakes up and says,"man,i don't like other dogs,AND don't let me set a hook into one".


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