# I know we've discussed this before but I have a question on the Merle colored dogs?



## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Those of you that have been in the breed for awhile how many Merle colored pure bred APBT's dogs have you seen with your own eyes?

We will be talking about this on the show soon and I'd like to get educated on it before we do 

If you have pictures of your own merle dogs please share them with us


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## PBN (Aug 1, 2009)

Marty said:


> Those of you that have been in the breed for awhile how many *Merle colored pure bred APBT's dogs* have you seen with your own eyes?
> 
> We will be talking about this on the show soon and I'd like to get educated on it before we do
> 
> If you have pictures of your own merle dogs please share them with us


Haha, I laugh. :rofl::hammer:


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

I saw a few merles at ADBA shows before they decided it was a fault. My son-in-law owned one until 2 years ago when the dog died.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I have never seen one in person


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

Anybody have some pictures of some pure APBT merles? im too lazy to look it up >> <<


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)




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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm not a color genetics expert, but from what I've read and educated people I've spoken to the color pattern is not possible in our breed. I tend to believe them, so how many purebred have I seen, the answer is none for me, and I never will.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I don't know if they're pure, but they're pretty.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

mygirlmaile said:


>


Here are body shots of Tocho and Raja from Sutherland Merles.

















They produce the best looking closest to standard merle dogs I have ever seen....However Pure APBT...No

They are direct American Bully decedents.


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## DogsLife (Sep 19, 2009)

*Never* seen a merle pit bull or even ambully in person.


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## SEO (Jul 7, 2009)

american_pit13 said:


> Here are body shots of Tocho and Raja from Sutherland Merles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I must say, Tocho looks nice, not form me to own, but nice.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

I know that alot of people here in the south have merle dogs because the catahulas get crossed into them with all the hog hunting! they still make a really good catch and bay dog!


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

I seen several at the Pet Expo in Jersey earlier this year with my brother ... 
They appear to be apbt in structure very beautiful ...
But I would think they aren't pure .... as merle in chi's is makes a chi not pure even if it is registered as one and they can suffer genetically blindness and deafness .... 
would not the apbt in that case?


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Sutherland Merles? so there is an actual kennel for these dogs?

How much they sell for?


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

i just found some being sold for 400
www.hoobly.com/50349/0/0/


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Marty said:


> Sutherland Merles? so there is an actual kennel for these dogs?
> 
> How much they sell for?


$1,200 is the only price I have seen. Not sure tho if that a high or low or average price as I don't talk to them. I just love the look of the dogs  lol


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Marty, I'm sure as you already know I've had these dogs for many years. I've got pics of many merle pics I can share with you. Here are just a few of my dogs:
































































Tomorrow I can send even more pics of merles I have taken over the years of both mine & other people's. Also in your discussion, please do not forget to mention the ADBA CH./Ace Polk Dot (the Presendent of the NC APBT club owns her) as well as Faulk's Ace Blue Thunder or the merle WYK produced out of the '99 Ripper x Sambella litter. I can help you gather info if you wish.

Good luck & I do hope your show will be unbaised as I do know you have a prejudice against these dogs.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

OK so how do these dogs differer from the bully breeds?

In over 25 yrs and 10,000 something dogs why have I not run across just one of them? 

Am I just not going to the right yard?


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## intensive (Apr 22, 2008)

i know merle isnt acceptable but a 'ticked color pattern is, they look similiar.

ill try and find a picture

edit: http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/17457-ticked-pitbull.html

thats from this website, i didnt find any other example


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

If merle isn't accepted as a ADBA color then why do people breed them still and why does the ADBA still register them? 

Like BTK said, it's a crossbred dog because merle has never or will never show up in these dogs.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh you fixing to get edumacted(sp) on the merle colored dogs trust me


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm assuming this is tomorrow's show. You on it too Marty?


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

I dunno Marty. Why for example in my 26 years around the breed have I never seen Lil Bit? Now I haven't seen 10,000 dogs, but I do know I haven't seen Lil Bit. Does it mean she didn't exist? Of course not! It just means that I myself personally wasn't exposed to her.

We have to remember that we ourselves are only one person in a big, big world & that world does not revolve around us. A lot goes on that we haven't yet seen or may never see. Heck, even I happened on my merles by mistake. I answered an ad for a grey & white dog. The guy who had them didn't even know they were merles. 

And only last week did I see a blue fawn tri. So every day is a new experience to see & learn new things!


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

*JFlowers* - People still breed them b/c I assume they like them. I know I like mine. Here is a FAQ link I made to answer some of the questions most commonly posed to me. Here's the link:

Abundantly Blessed Kennels | American Pit Bull Terriers

Please overlook any blurbs or blobs you see on the site, as it is still under construction (Geocities got shut down so we had to move). I also have an extensive article on merle in the breed, but I have yet to transfer it to my new site.

*Marty *- As for the "edumacation" I do hope it is indeed educating & not some half cocked spew. I know how you feel about these dogs & like I said if you need more pics or need to be put in touch with anyone else who has owned these dogs so that you may have an educated & well rounded show & not a bash-fest, please let me know & I will help you.

As for how they differ from bully breeds (forgot to address that, sorry!) according to the official registering body for the breed, merle has been around a lot longer than bully breeds have (like 90 years longer) & merles were originally bred to type, although most now have been bred into bully blood. But there are some like myself who prefer to keep the dog true to original type.

I hope this helps.

I'm going to sign off for tonight as I must retire to bed. But if anyone has any questions, please feel free to pose them & I will answer as best I can.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Have you ever seen a dog like her though?

You want to down bullys but breed subpar dogs?


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

No, I had not. I have seen dogs similar in color, but never one exactly like her. In fact, she is a dog unto herself. Her body is fabulous. most females (at least the ones I saw) are not as incredibly muscled as she is. But despite her pronounced muscle, she has a unusually weedy head ("coyote headed" as they say around here). But it could just be the angle of the pictures creating that effect though. Either way, the point I was trying to make is just b/c I have never seen her or a dog like her previously doesn't mean she never existed! It just means* I *didn't know about her! 

Good night friend & sleep well. I do hope you are fair & partial tomorrow. I doubt you will be, but I can still hope.

*EDIT*: As a side note to your added comment, yes, some merles are sub par. As are dogs of many other colors to include buckskin/rednoses. But just as you do, I myself choose to use my dogs - to include my merles - in endevours that will assure they are quality animals. In fact, our newest merle Brody has just begun his weight pull career. I hope to enter him in his first conf. show soon. Hopefully he will do well.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

ABK said:


> *Marty *- As for the "edumacation" I do hope it is indeed educating & not some half cocked spew. I know how you feel about these dogs & like I said if you need more pics or need to be put in touch with anyone else who has owned these dogs so that you may have an educated & well rounded show & not a bash-fest, please let me know & I will help you.
> 
> As for how they differ from bully breeds (forgot to address that, sorry!) according to the official registering body for the breed, merle has been around a lot longer than bully breeds have (like 90 years longer) & merles were originally bred to type, although most now have been bred into bully blood. *But there are some like myself who prefer to keep the dog true to original type*.


ABK I don't need to be educated on mutts dear, there not my type of dogs you can rant on all you want but don't call them APBT's cause there not!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> Marty, I'm sure as you already know I've had these dogs for many years. I've got pics of many merle pics I can share with you. Here are just a few of my dogs:
> 
> Good luck & I do hope your show will be unbaised as I do know you have a prejudice against these dogs.


Are you breeding these dogs? Dogs that are not only merle but several have a blue eye? Not 1 but 2 major faults????


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

ABK b*tches about bullys but has one in there avatar LMAO


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

WOWZA. 

I agree with Holly.

Youre breeding dogs with MORE THAN ONE MAJOR FAULT?

And yet you persecute those who own Bullies...who have NO major faults?

Hmmm...:\
Double standard/hypocritical comes to my mind here.

I can agree these dogs are pretty, HOWEVER, Id never own one because that would just promote breeding of dogs that in all reality, should not be bred due to major faults. 

Im always there on Tuesday, so, Ill be sure to listen...


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> And only last week did I see a blue fawn tri.


No last week you saw a dog that YOU are calling blue fawn tri.. A dog that is not blue fawn tri. Blue fawn can't be tri. The masking gene in blue fawn would cover the tri so you would not have any tri if the dog was blue fawn.


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

Marty said:


> Those of you that have been in the breed for awhile how many Merle colored pure bred APBT's dogs have you seen with your own eyes?


i dunno about ne of you but dont think i will ever come across a purbred merle apbt! my view on merle....it just needs to stay away from apbts. no merle apbt is purebred. i do see a lot more merle ambullies then apbts though. but i only see merle apbts or bullies online. and i dont know how the merle affects bullies but i know its not an apbt color.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

Marty said:


> Have you ever seen a dog like her though?
> 
> You want to down bullys but breed subpar dogs?


:goodpost:
great post marty...thanks!


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

JFlowersLA said:


> If merle isn't accepted as a ADBA color then why do people breed them still and why does the ADBA still register them?
> 
> Like BTK said, it's a crossbred dog because merle has never or will never show up in these dogs.


well even though merle is not an apbt color...its all about getting rich quick...see most people look too far into the color of their apbt and are out to get the one withcolors that will turn everyones head...so back yarders usually breed merle making it sound like something everyone should have when it is something you should actually look out for.


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

hell no they wont go said:


> well even though merle is not an apbt color...its all about getting rich quick...see most people look too far into the color of their apbt and are out to get the one withcolors that will turn everyones head...so back yarders usually breed merle making it sound like something everyone should have when it is something you should actually look out for.


I agree. I think Holly posted that they were pawning these dogs off at 1200 a pop. That's sad! I mean if you're going to reg them on like a Hybrid club and sell them as Catahoula/APBT mixes then I'd have no issue,and if someone is going to buy a mixed breed for 1200 because of the name, go for it.

But to each their own. See this just proves money does stupid things.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

*Marty:* I have to say you astound me with your last two incredibly ignorant statements. I have long been under the impression you were a knowledgeable dog man. But your last two comments esp. the very last one has blown me away. I can see the merle comment b/c you are too small minded to accept anything you don't like. But a bully in my avatar? WOW. Any dog man worth their salt would know the dog in my avatar is Brewer's Vindicator (2xw), a littermate to GR.CH. Zebo. He's as far from bully as you can get. OMG I still can't believe you said something that ignorant. I am totally floored. 









*american_pit:* Yes, I breed these dogs. HOWEVER ... (don't 'cha just hate those?) in the KC I show/pull my merles through neither their color of their eyes nor the color of their fur is considered a fault. 

*mygirlmaile:* Bullies don't have faults? What about these ones?

From the ADBA standard: Faults - short neck, cheeky, lippy, he must be balanced in all directions.

From the UKC standard: Very Serious Fault: Any disproportionate overdone characteristic (such as short legs, excessive bone or massive head or body) that would interfere with working ability.

From the AADR standard: At first impression, the correct APBT is lively, physically sound, and in balance. No one aspect is exaggerated, everything in proportion and nothing to extremes.

(underlines mine for emphasis)

All sound like very bully specific faults to me. But that is JMHO ...

As for listening in, I will pass on that one. So far as I know, Marty has made absolutely zero effort to contact anyone knowledgeable on the OTHER side to the fence concerning these dogs so I am willing to bet (although I may be wrong) that his show will be nothing but a one-sided bash fest & as far as I can see his involvement in this is only to avenge anything I may have inadvertently said to offend his bully cuddle buddies. And after the comment on Vindy being a bully - once again all I can say is WOW. I'm still blown away by that one. I'd expect that to come out of a greenie's mouth, but Marty's?? Never. I guess it just goes to show bizarre things happen every day.









Oh well. Ces't la vie.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

ABK said:


> *Marty:* I have to say you astound me with your last two incredibly ignorant statements. I have long been under the impression you were a knowledgeable dog man. But your last two comments esp. the very last one has blown me away. I can see the merle comment b/c you are too small minded to accept anything you don't like. But a bully in my avatar? WOW. Any dog man worth their salt would know the dog in my avatar is Brewer's Vindicator (2xw), a littermate to GR.CH. Zebo. He's as far from bully as you can get. OMG I still can't believe you said something that ignorant. I am totally floored.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didnt say the Bully breed didnt have faults. I said youre picking on dogs without major faults....meaning, specific dogs in general.

And that dog in your avatar 100% looks like a Bully, IDC who hes related to.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

OK, gotta catch up here. Boy, you guys are quick. lol.

*american_pit:* With all due respect Ma'am, you are showing yourself to be quite ignorant. If blue fawn covered the tan points why do they show in Dobermans & Dachunds (as well as APBTs)? Maybe I am missing something here? Please enlighten me.

*hello no*: If you want to see a merle APBT, please contact the NC APBT club. Their president has a red merle ADBA conf. CH. & weight pull Ace. You can also contact Texalina Knls who owns A/A Blue Thunder (blue merle) as well as Steal Heart Knls who owned a black merle named Black Heart who was conf. pointed I believe. Here. I'll even make it easy for you. 

WNC APBT club: Western Carolina APBTC

TLK: http://www.angelfire.com/nc/1pitbull1/

SHK: blackheart1

And as a side note, merle is not a color. It is a pattern that acts on colors predetermined by genes at other locations.

And not all merle breeders get rich quick. I sell mine for about $400 & have sold s/n pets for $150 (what I had in the s/n) & even given other altered dogs away free. So I have never made money on my merles. Although I will agree there are some "greeders" out there, but that can apply to all colors.

*JFlowers:* You are right! Money can make people do stupid things. Like pay for $3000 for a deformed or cross bred pup. 

As for registering them as hybrids, I'd be all for that - if someone could provide hard evidence that all merle APBTs are hybrids. But thus far this has not been the case. I will concede some merles are likely - if not probably - mixed. But others meanwhile are not. But I highly doubt any of you have done any background searching to know this. Which is fine. I wouldn't expect you to.

Marty's just bringing this up to defend his bully buddies, which I understand.

lol.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Oy vey Mygirl! You don't know who Vindicator is related to? He is only a bellymate brother to one of the best dogs of all time! GR.CH. Zebo; a 7xw, a ROM sire & a member of the Bulldog Hall of Fame, the only dog with these 3 accomplishments! And some had once said Vindicator was even better than his great brother Zebo! Ai!

Here is Vindy's pedigree. As you can see from his body type, he is not bully by any means!

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [3036] :: BREWER'S VINDICATOR

*EDIT: *I would like to add I commend you on being honest & saying bullies have faults. But I would like to point out unlike merles, bullies have faults in ALL major kennel clubs. Only TWO major kennel clubs consider merle a fault. ADBA due to bad breeding & UKC due to being star-struck by a well-meaning Phd who hasn't investigated beyond the surface. But in every other APBT or all breed club merle IS accepted. In fact, ADBA to this day still registers pups off merle parents.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

According to genetics a dog CAN NOT BE FAWN AND HAVE TAN POINTS. Fawn is dominant over tan points(black and tan, tricolor, blue and tan, red and tan, etc). A dog must carry both genes to produce the tan points and therefore can in no way be fawn. The dog you posted looks like it has a couple of dilutes or maybe a gene that causes washed out color. The dog is pretty but she is not a blue fawn tri.

This following is from VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - List of Services - Coat Color
The A locus has at least four alleles. There are direct tests available for *Ay (fawn* or sable) and "a" (recessive black), and in many breeds these two tests can be used to yield information about at (tan points). There is no direct test for the Wild type (think wolf pattern) allele which is designated aw. Any dog which has at least one copy of Ay (and no KB) will be fawn or sable, either with or without brindling. Any dog that is "a" (and no KB) will be black. Any dog that is atat or ata (and no KB) will have tan points, either with or without brindling.

In breeds where only the Ay, at and "a" alleles are present, the Ay test can be used to see if the fawn/sable dog is Ay/Ay (homozygous) or only has one Ay (heterozygous). If it only has one, the other allele must be at. Examples of breeds:

Afghans, Collies, Cardigan Welsh Corgi, Dachshund, Norwich Terrier, Staffordshire Terrier.

So if a dog is Ay/at then it will be fawn. It cannot be tri.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> *american_pit:* With all due respect Ma'am, you are showing yourself to be quite ignorant.


You know thats funny because thats the feeling that many have about you right now............

Please read the above post and educate yourself further. You can believe it is a blue fawn tri all you want, however that doesn't make it so.

Also I think you are very confused, doberman and Doxies come in Blue AND fawn. *Blue with fawn points.* They DON'T come in blue fawn with points.


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

ABK said:


> OK, gotta catch up here. Boy, you guys are quick. lol.
> 
> *american_pit:* With all due respect Ma'am, you are showing yourself to be quite ignorant. If blue fawn covered the tan points why do they show in Dobermans & Dachunds (as well as APBTs)? Maybe I am missing something here? Please enlighten me.
> 
> ...


sorry but i am a stubbron person., buit in my eyes there is no such thing as a purebred merle apbt. i dont give a crap whop sayasd it is purebred. it is not possible. i think breeding merle apbts is very irresponsible. especially since it is known merle is a flaw in apbts and carries heaqlth issues as well. as far as i know a merle apbt is a mix with a catahoula. as far as working merle apbts in comps. what ever. i have seen flawed apbts being entered in competitions before. but if you can plz show me a pic of a merle apbt inb the conformation ring. i have never seen or heard of it happening. and i dont really know who you are just yet and i am not out to make ne one hate me. but to me breeding merle apbts and having people spend money on them trhinking they are getting a quality apbt is not ethical. i am glad you are not selling your dogs for thousands. i have seen merles in the news paper going for like 2thou stating that they are 100% purbred apbts and very rare. those things tick me off. but i dont see how anyone could claim a merle apbt is 100%purbred. i dont see it happening...man i wish cain76 was still around...he always had great things to say about topics like this.. in another thread i posted a while ago cain had some interesting things to say about merle. it should be floating around here somewhere.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 16, 2007)

I have never in my life seen a purebreed merle APBT with my own eyes or in a picture


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Boy, you guys are quick as lightning!

*american_pit:* It is there you are again very wrong indeed. While Doxies do come in fawn, they also come in what we call blue fawn. In their breed however, the color is called Isabella. In Dobermans it is called fawn or Isabella, depending on the person you're talking to. In our breed the color is called blue fawn.

*aimee:* Thank you for clarifying! 

However, we are dealing with 2 completely different sets of alleles here. Isabella Dachunds, fawn Dobermans & blue fawn APBTs are not true fawns. Their coat color is instead the result of dd dilute acting on bb brown. This is why the at tri gene can still be expressed. This can be studied & confirmed in the book "Genetics of the Dog" by Malcom Willis.

Hope this helps.

*hell no:* I am disappointed you are too stubborn to learn. But that is your perogative. You can be as ignorant on any subject as you choose to be.

If you want to see a merle in the conf. ring once again, I urge you to contact the man who owns CH. Poke Dot. I don't have any pics of Poke Dot myself. She is a red merle ADBA conf. CH. She was even slated to be a Gazette cover dog. He can be reached at the address for the WNC APBT club.

*sw_df:* You just saw some earlier. lol. If you want to see more as I mentioned earlier just contact the people at the links given.

But I doubt anyone here will. Anti-merle people don't want to know the truth or even so much as investigate anything. They like to fold their arms & huff & puff like ole billy goat gruff instead of actually finding out something that may alter their perception.

Notice this has taken ALL the focus off the bully dogs. Looks like Marty's little plan worked. lol.

Well, gotta sign off for now. Have fun amongst yourselves.


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

ABK said:


> *JFlowers:* You are right! Money can make people do stupid things. Like pay for $3000 for a deformed or cross bred pup.
> 
> As for registering them as hybrids, I'd be all for that - if someone could provide hard evidence that all merle APBTs are hybrids. But thus far this has not been the case. I will concede some merles are likely - if not probably - mixed. But others meanwhile are not. But I highly doubt any of you have done any background searching to know this. Which is fine. I wouldn't expect you to.
> 
> ...


Look guy/girl whatever, I'll address this as it was directed to me.

Money does do stupid things and believing you're righteous above every one else makes you do stupid things.

You and I have different views on the Bully, Great! I personally don't want you in my community. However to call my dog a deformity when you have dogs on your yard that are deformed as well with that coat and eyes is a double standard in my eyes. Again we can agree to disagree.

I'm not disagreeing with you that the Merles are gorgeous because they are, I'm not disagreeing with you that the avatar is brewers vindicator (although I've only found 2 pictures of him and one is in the ring and the other is him as a puppy), I'm just disagreeing with your practice of breeding a dog that in my opinion (and it's just that an opinion) is a complete deformity and crossbred of a "TRUE APBT" and to call it an APBT. I don't call my dog an APBT, its' a bully plan and simple.


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

ABK said:


> Notice this has taken ALL the focus off the bully dogs. Looks like Marty's little plan worked. lol.
> 
> Well, gotta sign off for now. Have fun amongst yourselves.


You want to talk Bullies, go to the thread Big Bullies. I'll be more than happy to discuss those with you all day.


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## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)

I don't even understand why bullys keep getting brought back up. This was meant to be a discussion on merles.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

ABK said:


> Oy vey Mygirl! You don't know who Vindicator is related to? He is only a bellymate brother to one of the best dogs of all time! GR.CH. Zebo; a 7xw, a ROM sire & a member of the Bulldog Hall of Fame, the only dog with these 3 accomplishments! And some had once said Vindicator was even better than his great brother Zebo! Ai!
> 
> Here is Vindy's pedigree. As you can see from his body type, he is not bully by any means!
> 
> ...


You mean you can show your dogs in the CKC?! Wow...Im jealous.


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*As one of Marty's Bully Buddies lol. I dont think he is starting this thread to defend me, as I dont particurally think I need defending. If that is what you believe so be it, its really neither here nor there.

The subject of the merle pattern is one that is relevant to the breed, and should be discussed as all disqualifying and major faults of any breed should be discussed amongst its enthusiasts.

In the UKC the pattern Merle was a disqualifying fault because of genetic research. You can contact the UKC to receive exact wording on why its a disqualification, years ago when the subject was a hot topic, I remember many stating that geneticaly the pattern would have had to be introduced into the gene pool, and since no such pattern had been found prior to a certian period, they deemed it impossible that merle could be found in the APBTs genetic make up, unless crossed in using a breed that carried the merle gene. The pattern also originally consistently popped up in the south where Catahoulas are common hog dogs, and long time breeders have readily admitted crossing the two breeds to be used as catch dogs. Therefore they found reason enough to make it a DQ, meaning no merle dogs I believe can be registered as a APBT in the UKC, at the very least I know one can not be shown.

The ADBA, does not count the Merle pattern as a DQ but a major fault, now its reasoning is diffirent and this is one in regards to health:

Color or any combination of colors, except for colors or color patterns known to be genetically linked to health problems.

The only pattern named is Merle, science has linked the pattern to health problems, I know deafness and blindness being the primary health defects, when breeding merle to merle. Aussie, Danes and Dachshund responsible breeders also avoid this practice due to the defects.

I side with science, on the introduction of the pattern and have also been told by several dogmen, over the age of 70, who operated throughout the south, they have only seen the pattern in catch dogs, but not purebred APBTs. Call them a liar if you like but I believe them.

The fact these dogs can have the structure of a APBT is not within doubt, breeding correctly, and you can lock back in type easily. 3-4 generations you will be back almost where you started, except for a few DNA alterations, in this arguement MERLE.

I would not buy one, but thats me and thats my money. I would argue also that the Merle gene would make a claimed APBT a mix regardless of paperwork, stating otherwise.

I make the same arguement to AmBully owners, the difference is that all AmBullies can not be traced back to being mixes, because of the large variance in appearance. The fact that a dog has substantial bone, and a large head does not automatically make it a AmBully, couple in more traits and characteristics and, yes. The arguement is that you can achieve a AmBully style dog without mixing, even if you argue that faults and flaws and gentic disorders were bred in, the arguement still remains that another breed was not in some cases, not all, but some.

The merle gene according to science removes all doubt, it could not just pop up, it had to be introduced by bringing in a outside breed. It was not in the APBT when registered in the early 1900s, with the reputable registries.

The fact that a dog like the one in the avatar can be confused as a AmBully, shows the inconsistency not only in the AmBully as a breed but in the perception of what one looks like. The picture mentioned does show a dog with desired AmBully traits, pronounced cheeks, nice topskull, and to some a studded collar LOL.

Know need to post up that AmBullies have health problems as well, I know. The fact is the degree of doubt is there in regards to all being mixed, in the Merle pattern arguement that doubt is removed, a mix had to occur.

Unlike AmBullies however, where the move to register and call them as such is taking place, the Merle breeders still call their dogs APBTs, even though the major governing registries do not, or fault them in a major fashion. Funny huh? Sounds like calling a merle, a APBT, would be equivalent to a lie, where I am from. Some have said Liars are only AmBully breeders, interesting.

Registries are about making money, not turning it away, so to DQ is pretty big, when had the UKC accepted the pattern, they would have opened up a virtual cash cow. I have MCd at some of the largest AmBully shows and have yet to see a Merle. Not saying they are not out there as people breed for money, but the pattern is not prevalent, and is not the rave in the community. Other defects maybe, but in this case, not at all.

This is not a AmBully thread just wanted to post, as the comparisons were being made. Maybe I will go hide now and wait for someone else to come defend me lmao.

Great topic, and good posts.*


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

BTK. Write a book. Ill read it.  And I can totally read and understand what youre saying cuz you break it down for my simple mind (lol, Im not that simple-minded, I promise). But, freals...write a book!


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## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)




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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

Aidan said:


> I don't even understand why bullys keep getting brought back up. This was meant to be a discussion on merles.


The reason bullies keep coming up in this thread is because ABK has hypocritical views on dogs...he/she has made several posts about how bullies are deformed crossbreeds with faults for days...however they turn around and post pictures of their 'merle APBT'S' however I have still not seen anyone be as rude or disrespectful towards these merle dogs as she/he has been towards bullies...I personally think these merle dogs are good looking animals...I refuse to make childish comments like you have in the past ABK...(remember...'these before and after pictures make me vomit')...lol...I find most of your posts to actually be quite amusing...I love the sarcasm and stereotypes you tend to use...:clap:


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

ABK said:


> Boy, you guys are quick as lightning!
> 
> *american_pit:* It is there you are again very wrong indeed. While Doxies do come in fawn, they also come in what we call blue fawn. In their breed however, the color is called Isabella. In Dobermans it is called fawn or Isabella, depending on the person you're talking to. In our breed the color is called blue fawn.
> 
> ...


i am not stubborn to learn. i love learning new things. i am stubborn to see something in a different point of view when for so long i have heard the complete opposite by people who should be considered exellent dogs men and woman. and not all from this sight. well lets just say i only listen to people who really know thier stuff. like i said i dont know you that well and i am not sure how credible you are. no offense but thats just how i am. i rather listen to people i know for a fact are credible.every great dogmen and woman have told me the opposite of what you are syaing. just because it is accepted by some doesnt make it true.

ok here is my point of view. to me the merle gene in this breed is fairly new. havent heard of it till 03. im not saying it hasnt been around in the breed longer then 03. but i think it is safe to say in the 80's and prior to that, if someone saw a merle apbt they would call it a mutt. i know all breeds were once mutts. but i do know the apbt has b een around longer then the 80's and by then everyone had a good idea of what an apbt was supposed to be. so how can a recent mix to create a pattern in this breed make it a purbred? there are still ambully ppl in this wolr that consider the mabully a purbred apbt, just different size and style. just because the apbt is what helped create the ambully does not mean it is a purebred apbt or a different style apbt. if the ambully was not a recognized breed by now it would still be called a mutt. so how is it that the merle pattern that is not present in this breed unless it has been mixed still make an apbt purebred if it carries this gene? now i can not count how manny times i have heard this even by people i dont consider all that credible. but i have always been told the merel in apbts comesw from a catahoula leopard dog. i have never known any lines of purebred apbts to come up with the merle gene out of nowhere...never mind come up with the merle gene period. maybe merel pits should be another breed so there can be even more drama:roll:. i say that because i know in a lot of peoples eyes the merel apbt will never be seen as purebred. just like no matter how much a bully owner thinks their dog is pure apbt it simply is not. and with the merle gene it all boils down to this. there was never any proof that any foundation apbt was merle. no proof any purbred apbt was merel...(now i am talking whe the dogs became recognized as a breed.) there is no metion of merel but there was mention of every other color that is accpetable for apbts. from what i know merle in this breed is not an old thing. but reds, and blues, and brindles and so on have been recorded and have pics. but you dont seeany old photos of merle apbts you never hear ab out merel apbts if you do your history searches on the breed. and to me a breeder that breeds merle no matter the price is not doing anything good for the breed.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I can't say that I have seen a pure bred merle APBT. But I have seen a merle pit bull mix puppy. He looked like a full blood pup. But I assume the merle made him a mix. But he was a doll! He was so gorgeous. I worked at a vet clinic and he was there with parvo. 

I would never pay money for a dog that didn't have a true pedigree. So I wouldn't buy a merle. But if I saw one roaming the streets or someone needed a home for one, I would most certainly take him or her. And they would be spayed/neutered and called pit bull mix.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

I have never seen a merle apbt with my own eyes. Maybe they are like unicorns.


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

aimee235 said:


> I have never seen a merle apbt with my own eyes. Maybe they are like unicorns.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

aimee235 said:


> I have never seen a merle apbt with my own eyes. Maybe they are like unicorns.


LMAO! Only those pure of heart and sole can see them:woof:


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

american_pit13 said:


> LMAO! Only those pure of heart and sole can see them:woof:


Well then 90% of this board is SOL!


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

american_pit13 said:


> LMAO! Only those pure of heart and sole can see them:woof:


....or maybe they just dont exist...lol. oh abk i do not care how ignorant you think i am. i just think it is ignorant to breed merle apbts and pass them off as purebred. proboly just as bad as breeding merle pits for the money. but oh well like i laready said i only listen to those who know what they are talking about. by the was that is a greaqt post BTK!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

First I dont think vidicator looks like a bully. There are many game dogs or game style dogs that look like that one.

I would however like to see the pedigrees on the Merle dogs. I have always been under the impression that merle was a fault and not purebred, according to the standard.

ABK, do you belive your dogs to be purebred APBT? If so where did the merle pattern come from. I have never seen a pure merle. I have seen merles that had Catahoulas or Mnt Curr in them?


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## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)




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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

i've seen merles b4. breeder that pikes parents came from's yard actually. his name is joel kirby. dont know if any of you have ever heard of him b4. he had a male named chevy that was a beast.....i think he died sometime early this yr....at 14. anywho that's a diff story alltogether. *ABK* - i just have a hard time seeing why you are fighting against a bully when you own merles. if anything you should def see the bully's peoples sides with all the speculations. your merles have just as bad a rep as a bully haha  and another thing, tell me how my dog (100% bully...) has more faults, over your 2 major faults to begin with......i dont want to argue with you nor have you see me as hostile in any way, i just think its hipocritical. to each his own, you have your merle, i have my bully.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

everytime i get to a good thread it just dies lmao


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## Mr. canelo (Oct 4, 2009)

Marty said:


> OK so how do these dogs differer from the bully breeds?
> 
> In over 25 yrs and 10,000 something dogs why have I not run across just one of them?
> 
> Am I just not going to the right yard?


i think this is how the bullys where brought up in this thread


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## SnoopsMomma (Nov 5, 2009)

Why do ignorant people think they know it all. hahaha I dont know sh*t but i do know cross breeding and charging 1200 a pup is highway robbery.


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## redscarletp3 (Jun 23, 2008)

[/QUOTE]

wow i love the way this dog looks! would never own one but its a gorgeous looking dog


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

*JFlowers:* You are correct, we will have to agree to disagree. Whether you want to admit it or not your dogs DO have a deformity (or are cross bred) if you choose not to accept that, that's fine. I think that's called being "kennel blind" & it's your perogative to be that way.

As for mine, while they're not perfect (every dog has a fault somewhere) merle is neither a deformity of the coat or eyes. Mutation I may agree with, but deformity, no. However ... before you go jumping around like a wild ape because I mentioned the word mutation, blues are considered mutations & are in fact in the same class of mutations as merle (dilute).

BTW again major kudos to you for calling your dogs American Bullies. As for my own, once again I will stress, until I find hard evidence they're not, I will continue to reference them as APBT. But thus far no one has been able to produce any hard evidence. In fact, I have found facts to the contrary.

Now let me say this though - YES, *some* merles are likely mixed. But there are some who are not as well.

And thank you for the invite to the big bullies thread. But I think I'll pass on that. There's really no benefit to either myself or the bully lovers for me being there.

*Aidan:* Bullies keep getting brought up b/c as soon as I questioned the bullies, Marty brought this thread up, which he knew would draw attention away from bullies & onto me & my dogs. And his diversionary tactic worked - quite well I might add.

*mygirlmaile:* Yes, I can show CKC if I want to. But I prefer to show my guys in the AADR - where neither the merle pattern NOR blue eyes are a fault. I can also go BFKC with my merles if I want to & funny both registries either were run or are run by true dogmen who probably have more knowledge about the breed in their pinky fingers than both of us have in our whole bodies combined. But strange neither seemed to have a problem with merles ...

*BullyTheKid:* Actually I wasn't specifically referring to you when I said "bully buddies" I was referring to his bully buddies that are on the board in general.

The biggest breeder of merle dog was actually located in Columbus, Ohio, not the south, although I do know there are some merle APBTs in the south, mainly in NC/SC area. And yes, I do know that some hunters cross bred the dogs. This is all old news to me. I have been researching these dogs for over a decade. Now do I know it all? Most certainly not. But I do know more than most & I will hazard to say I certainly know more than most merle haters.

Yours post was quite long, so I don't think i will be able to reply to all the points you made. But please go to my website to check out my merle FAQ as well as my article "Merle in the APBT." I think you will find them interesting & I think most of your questions can be answered there. Both can be found under the articles section. Abundantly Blessed Kennels | American Pit Bull Terriers Please overlook any blurbs & blobs on the site though as I am still figuring out how to format the site & the site itself is still under construction.

As for merle not being able to just "pop up" once again this shows lack of study. There was an article published by a gamedog breeder who at the time had 20 years in the breed. He had a blue merle pup pop up in a litter sired by a red buckskin male & out of a black bitch. Neither parent was cryptic as they had never produced a merle before or since. It is exceedingly rare, but it does happen. I have posted his account before, however despite the fact he was a well-known game dog breeder most merle haters refuse to talk to him. They would rather wallow in their ignorance then educate themselves & even entertain the fact that they may be wrong. 

*RPBK:* Please see my post to Aiden as to why bullies keep getting brought up.

*hell no: * Yes, excellent dog men & women may hold an anti-merle POV but what about the excellent dog men & women who accept merles? What about ALL the judges who put up CH. Polk Dot? What about CH. Poke Dot's owner, a President of an ADBA club? What about the folks at Steal Heart Knls who are very avid in the show scene? What about WYK, a 20+ year breeder of game APBTs who had a merle pop up in one of his litters? What about the Greenwoods who were going to make CH. Poke Dot an ADBA cover dog? Have you spoken to any of them? My guess is no. You just took what sounded right to you & then closed your mind to anything else. 

As for when merles appeared, HM of Columbus, OH began mass producing them in the late 90s. So that's why most folks started seeing them late 90s - early 00s. But there are other dogs like the one previously mentioned who passed at 14. CH Polk Dot is about 11. Richard Stratton featured a merle in one in one of his books. And the ADBA has said they've been around as long as they have (1909). So these dogs have been around WAY before '03.

And for the record, I don't think you are ignorant as a person. I think you are ignorant on certain subjects - like merle. But don't feel bad, I'm ignorant too. For example I am bafflingly ignorant on the the subject of trigonometry. But it doesn't mean you (or I for that matter) have to stay that way.

*OFK:* I believe my dogs to be purebred. I believe this b/c I have either bred or personally known all the merles in the pedigrees of my dogs. We were blessed in the fact that our first merle was sired by a dog that was owned by a close friend of my husband. It's not like I went to some fellow who I didn't know & didn't know his dogs & took his word for it. So I know my dog's background personally. Others who own merles I cannot speak for & again I would like to stress some merles can be & in some cases likely are - mixed. But not ALL are.

*vdubbinya:* IMO if the dog you have pictures is a bully it's a darn good looking one. MUCH better than 90% of the stuff I see.

The reason I fight against bullies is b/c they are purposely bred for a genetic defect & not only a genetic defect but a defect which will affect the quality of life for the dog & shorten it's lifespan. Would you agree & support something like that?

I'm sure you've seen those bullies with the smooshed faces, deformed legs & water-baby heads. Heck, from what I understand it's getting so bad in some cases the dogs can't even breed naturally any more. They're taking our once healthy breed & turning it into an English Bulldog. Is that good? I don't think so. No one profits from that but the $$$ minded greeder. THAT'S why I fuss against it.

And as a side note, I would again clarify I don't hate bullies. The dogs can't help what they are. But I DO hold the breeders responsible for producing those monstrosities, something no one else seems to want to do anymore. 

*SnoopsMomma:* I agree. Cross breeding & charging $1200 IS highway robbery. Which is why I am so against the bully breeders! These breeders are charging $1500, $2000, even $3000 for pups that are either cross bred or purposely bred for a detrimental deformity. THAT is terrible, at least to me.

I hope this answers everyone's questions.

*EDIT:* As a side note I wanted to add, no one else posted those pictures of my dogs on this MB.* I *posted those pictures of my dogs.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> But I prefer to show my guys in the AADR - where neither the merle pattern NOR blue eyes are a fault.


Well thats explains it. Of course Merle and Blues eyes aren't a fault. Neither is having no ped. You can register a dog with them by just paying the fee and sending in pictures.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Now you are really showing your ignorance my dear. To register AADR you need a 4 generation pedigree as well as breeder info so they may contact the breeder & verify it. And you must not know the history of the beloved ADBA darling - with them you only needed *3 * generations & a signature!

But it's not like my dogs are first generation AADR dogs - I took my dogs to AADR when Mr. Williams was still running it!

And what about that beautiful blue you have in the background in your avatar? Did you know in some KCs blue is considered a fault & "any shade of blue" (their words not mine) is an automatic DQ? So should blues not be bred either? Furthermore, what is your stance on CDA? Please elaborate, I'd like to hear your opinion.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

I don'[t think this thread was created to take attention away from bullies, ABK. I think it was more so to show you what the scrutiny is like. You are running very questionable blood there,and yet you knock on bullies....? 
PLUS, the topic should get brought up every now and again, as the flow of newcomers never ends. 
Lil myth(?) I heard a while back.... Merles are the product of Southern Hunters trying to make a better catch dog. Anyone know that to be factual?


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

ABK said:


> Now you are really showing your ignorance my dear. To register AADR you need a 4 generation pedigree as well as breeder info so they may contact the breeder & verify it. And you must not know the history of the beloved ADBA darling - with them you only needed *3 * generations & a signature!
> 
> But it's not like my dogs are first generation AADR dogs - I took my dogs to AADR when Mr. Williams was still running it!
> 
> And what about that beautiful blue you have in the background in your avatar? Did you know in some KCs blue is considered a fault & "any shade of blue" (their words not mine) is an automatic DQ? So should blues not be bred either?


Pretty sure that Blue isn't a result of cross breeding.....


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Oh I am more than assured this thread was posted to take the heat off the bullies. In fact, I'd be willing to bet on it.

As for my dogs, how am I running a questionable bloodline? As I posted to OFK - I have either bred or personally known every merle in the pedigree of my merle dog.. The parentage of my merles has been DNA certified for several generations. How many of you can say that? In fact, how many of you who have non-merle dogs can say that? Not many I'm sure. BUT ... I will agree that others out there may indeed have questionable blood b/c they DON'T know what is behind their blood like I do.

As for merle being the result of hunters crossing to CLD, *NO ONE* knows it to be factual source of merle in the APBT. Now has cross breeding occured? Yes. BUT ... any time I knew of such a dog ...

1: It was obviously mixed bred

&

2: The person who had it did not even try to pass it off as purebred. They were honest as to what it was b/c they didn't have it to make a buck, they had it to catch hogs.

The fact is NO ONE can *yet* prove without a doubt the origin of merle in the APBT. As I said to BTK, go to my website. Read the FAQ & the Merle in the APBT article. Educate yourself some. No one & I mean NO ONE has yet to stand up & say "Yes, I did this" (like they have with other cross breedings) but on the flip side of the coin there IS some proof for *some* (but not all) merle APBTs to be pure.

As for blue, history says it came from another breed the Scottish Blue Poll while the fighting breeds were still developing. So it originated from a cross breeding (Scotch dogs to English & Irish dogs of various breeding) but this of course was before our breed even existed. However, the fact remains some KCs look at blue in the APBT as a penalty worthy of a DQ.

Again - a lot of folks seem to be missing this point - I am not saying ALL merle APBTs are purebred. Some easily could be (or are) mixed. I am just saying not ALL are mixed, despite popular opinion here.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> Now you are really showing your ignorance my dear. To register AADR you need a 4 generation pedigree as well as breeder info so they may contact the breeder & verify it.


Hmmm thats funny because I have PERSONALLY registered dogs of unknown heritage with them and know a boxerXpit who not only did they register her by pictures, but also registered a litter of puppies from her and another dog thats was also registered by photos.

Sooooo maybe you need to know what you are talking about before you show your ignorance


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Not to sound offensive ABK, but do you think there is the slightest chance that you got taken advantage of from the breeder(s) that you got your dogs from? It's something we all have to really think about as dog owners.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

this thread really makes me laugh, supposedly marty wants to know some info on merles and when he gets some good info he instanly bashes it with small minded statements. was this thread created just to stir the pot?? i sure think so.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Main Entry: re·cip·ro·ca·tion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˌsi-prə-ˈkā-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 1561

1 a : a mutual exchange b : a return in kind or of like value
2 : an alternating motion

— re·cip·ro·ca·tive \-ˈsi-prə-ˌkā-tiv, -kə-\ adjective


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

wheezie said:


> this thread really makes me laugh, supposedly marty wants to know some info on merles and when he gets some good info he instanly bashes it with small minded statements. was this thread created just to stir the pot?? i sure think so.


Wheezie this thread was made after BTK, Shon and myself discussed this when we had our long talk about thing's, I will admit I was a little upset that some member's can't see the good that can come with us all (APBT,Pet and bully owners alike) coming together to fight the good fight against the people that want to see this breed exterminated! 

I do apologize for some of the things I said :rain:


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

BTK...i like things to be as original as possible. i am all for life changes and everything. but when it comes to foundations of things...like breeding i like them to stay the same. i do not like to see change with this breed...or any other breed. i think it takes away the value...not talking money value either. if it appeared in the 90's and not from the get go then that means the dogs have been mixed with something to get this pattern...do you understand that? goldens come in tans, yellows,browns,and whites. i am sure if someone came up with a black golden in the 90's and started passing them off as purebred a lot of golden ppl would be very ticked off and would be aware it is only black because it has been mixed with something else somewhere in the gene ppol.( for the record i personally do not knoiw if there have ever been any legit blacvk goldens) point is, you can call something what it is not...but that doesnt make it what you want it to be. i will always consider merle apbts to be mutts. i am sure there are bybs that have breed mixes like boxer/bulldogs or something since the 90's to get a specific look. that still doesnt make the dog a purebred. i would consider merle apbts to be designer breeds. (bred for looks and passed off as a specific breed but still a mutt). i am sorry that is just the way it is. yes i think merle apbts look very nice but i dont approve.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Dang, Jessica! I had to read yer post like three times to understand it.... It's way too early!
Anyway, you make a good point. If you're making something else out of it, that's one thing, but to add and then deny any mixture and call it what it was originally is BLEH. It's much like what people were and some are still doing with Bullies. It's a messed up world we live in, slide of hand is nothing new though, this is why reputable kennel clubs have faults set in place(specifically targeting things like MERLE). I'm sure at one point that this was such a common gripe that it became a taboo subject to speak of.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

ABK said:


> *JFlowers:* The biggest breeder of merle dog was actually located in Columbus, Ohio, not the south, *although I do know there are some merle APBTs in the south, mainly in NC/SC area. *
> *vdubbinya:* IMO if the dog you have pictures is a bully it's a darn good looking one. MUCH better than 90% of the stuff I see.
> 
> The reason I fight against bullies is b/c they are purposely bred for a genetic defect & not only a genetic defect but a defect which will affect the quality of life for the dog & shorten it's lifespan. Would you agree & support something like that?
> ...


okie, here we go. i had the whole @#[email protected] thing typed out and i lost it all so i'll redo what i lost. im from florence sc, and joel kirby the breeder i spoke of b4 is from cades sc. hes got the only 3 merles i've ever seen. not that i go out looking for them but that's the only ones i've ever came across. the thing you seem to miss about the bully breed is that there are 3 classes. theres the pocket, classic (my dog), and the xxl. the classic would be considered by most apbt/amstaff cross. unlike yourself , i have not witnessed every breeding in my dogs generation to see his genetic makeup. therefore i cant say weither he has something else mixed in, or not. again, to say you've seen every dog that went into your ped is just  mind boggling. but okie. i have seen some horrible looking bullies. i have seen some horrible looking apbt's. i dont see how you give the bully so much scrutinty. to call all bullies monstrosity's is just, as you've been putting it, quite ignorant. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [249575] :: DOWDY'S PIKE that's pikes ped. like i said, 100% bully  theres alot more bullies of that caliber than you would think. it's alot like your merles, alot of people havnt seen them that doesnt mean their not out there  all i'm saying is you keep bringing up close minded people, that's what you yourself portray. to lump all bullies into one pile of fatness/bowlegged freaks is close minded. 
and with that, im out  ----shane
one more to whore him out, right apollo?? .


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## ptw (Jan 8, 2009)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> I know that alot of people here in the south have merle dogs because the catahulas get crossed into them with all the hog hunting! they still make a really good catch and bay dog!


Exactly! I know quite a few guys that are 6 generations deep into Catahula Leopard/APBT. Bred for hog dogs.

Just from my observation it seems that the APBT has the stronger genetics in body, and the catahulas have the stronger genetics in color. So 6 gen deep you get a fast, gnarly "merle pit".


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

OK, I'm back. I have to admit I can only take this in small doses now & I have to take breaks.

*american_pit:* You are right, I was showing my ignorance. Not only do you have to have a 4 generation pedigree as well as a breeder's signature, you have to have a copy of registration from another recognized kennel club! My bad! Sorry I left that out. Read it for yourself here: ALL AMERICAN DOG REGISTRY,LLC

*Indigo:* No, I don't think I was taken advantage of. Had it been someone I didn't know I would concede there could have been a chance of this. But the owner of the dog was a close personal friend of my husband's that he did business with. I don't think he would endanger a lucrative business connection over a dog. I think had he thought anything was amiss with the dog he would have been 110% honest about it.

*wheezie: *Thank you. I am glad I am not the only one seeing this.

*Marty:* That post was very mature of you. Thank you for your honesty.

*hell no:* What about these "white Labradors" then? I have never heard of a white lab until recently. Or the dark blue Weimaraners? Or the merle that is now seen in Min Pins (not Harlequin Pinchers either, Miniature Pinchers), Cockers, Poms & Chis?

And if you like thing to be "as original as possible" how can you support the bully, but not support the merle which the ADBA says has been in the breed since the ADBA's creation? Which would be more original? A dog like CH. Poke Dot for example or a dog like Juan Gotti?

*vadubbinya:* The Pike dog is a very good looking dog despite the fact that it is a bully.

And I never said ALL bullies were monstrosities. I simply said BULLIES were monstrosities. To me a bully is one of those waddling freaks with stunted, bowed legs, English Bulldog chest, water-baby heads & pushed in faces. I know you've seen them. Heck, most of the time their own owners refer to them as "freaks." They even tout their "freakishness" as selling points. But it's OK for them to call them freaks, but not a "standard" APBT fancier like myself? Figures ... 

The dogs that look like ASTs (like yours) don't bother me. They're not my cup of tea as if I wanted an AST I'd have bought an AST, but some, like yours & even Jada, are still good looking dogs. I used to own dogs like them myself back in the day before I knew what a real APBT was supposed to be. But once I discovered the true game dog, it was over!

As for me personally knowing every merle in the pedigree of my dogs, as mentioned previously the man who owned the sire of our first merles was a friend of my husband's. So I personally knew that dog. The other dogs I personally owned & bred myself. You must remember, I didn't just get these dogs. I have had these dogs 12 years & counting. I documented every breeding I made with my merle dogs to include getting the litters DNA certified. Isn't that what one is supposed to do when they breed dogs? Breed for yourself, farm out or sell what you can't keep & keep records of your breedings? You seem to find this strange & unbelievable, but if I recall correctly (I could be wrong though) I think this is how things are supposed to be done.

*ptw:* I have never said that ALL merle "APBTs" (again, using the term loosely here) were purebred. For some reason people keep overlooking that statement. YES, some are mixed! But there ARE merle APBT who are pure as well. I have given the links to contact these people who have them, but for some reason the anti-merle people don't want to seem to do it ...

I hope I covered everything.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> *american_pit:* You are right, I was showing my ignorance. Not only do you have to have a 4 generation pedigree as well as a breeder's signature, you have to have a copy of registration from another recognized kennel club! My bad! Sorry I left that out. Read it for yourself here: ALL AMERICAN DOG REGISTRY,LLC


So what their site *states* over rules what they will actually do when sent to money??

Did you miss the part where *I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN THEM REGISTER MULTIPLE DOGS AND LITTERS OF NO LINAGE. *

I could care less what they say on there site I know very well what they will register.

How bout this, you do like I said before and do your research and know what you are talking about before you call people ignorant and make yourself look even dumber.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

ABK said:


> OK, I'm back. I have to admit I can only take this in small doses now & I have to take breaks.
> 
> *american_pit:* You are right, I was showing my ignorance. Not only do you have to have a 4 generation pedigree as well as a breeder's signature, you have to have a copy of registration from another recognized kennel club! My bad! Sorry I left that out. Read it for yourself here: ALL AMERICAN DOG REGISTRY,LLC


Sorry to have to tell you. Umm when my mom bred her litter. I uhh registered my moms dog molly with the AADR with a front and side pic and I registered the sire as well and then I registered the pups. I will get the certificate from my mom and post up a pic of it.

I think I was about 16 or so when I did that.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

either way this thread was intended to talk about merles and attain information on them. this thread is way off topic, take the bickering to PM's and get back on topic or i don't see a point to this thread staying open


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

wheezie said:


> either way this thread was intended to talk about merles and attain information on them. this thread is way off topic, take the bickering to PM's and get back on topic or i don't see a point to this thread staying open


Maybe you should go post that on every thread that ABK took of topic bashing bullies?????

When people want to start calling others ignorant about things they don't even know then something will be said.

Otherwise anyone reading this thread will get tons of mis information from someone who has no idea what he is talking about.

And the topic of the AADR does have to do with the merles and the registry that registers them.

Of course they register and except Merle dogs when they don't even require linage, so how are you to say a dog is purebred from a registry that CURRENTLY will register by pics??


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i honestly have not seen her threads, if i did i would have said the same thing, i have been much to busy to look at most threads as of late, the only reason why im on now is because there was no work today.


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

ABK i have seen white looking labs my whole life. around here all you see are pits and labs. but i coulod not tell you much about other breeds and coloration. just apbts. i do not think labs range in colors and shades. i dont think i have seen an all pure white lab. but definatley creamy whitish labs. and wiemaraners come in different shades as well. i have seen very pale blue ones and very dark ones. again i cant tell you if a dark blue is a fault in a wiem but i dont think that it woulod be a sign of mixed breeding just genetics. but like i am going to keep on saying merle is not something that can be passed on genetically if you breed two purebred apbts together. it just wont happen unless there is a mix. and as for merle in minie pins i have never heard of that and if it is becoming a fad they are probobly only created by bybs. but like i said i cant tell you much at all about coloring and other breeds. i just think only someone breeding mostly for color with little to no care about what makes up a true apbt would breed merle apbts. i do not know why you breed merles but i am trying not to generalize you with ppl i normally look down upon


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Heres a article I found about the merle patterns in the APBT it may have been posted already American Pit Bull Terrier Network Merle and the Pit Bull


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

*american_pit:* You can see what the site says. Read it for yourself. It's in black & white. I have done my research my dear & went straight to the site to get it. You obviously did not.

As for what they did for the person you knew & what they did for aimee, I can't speak on that as I don't know all the details about it. I know certain people in registries WILL do "favors" for others (like the Greenwoods did w/ Edgar Eddington) but I do not know if that is the case with yourself & aimee. Sounds like it is b/c it completely defies their registration standards as set forth by their registry itself. And as a side note, it sounds as if you keep some pretty scuzzy company if you're willing to know a person who would paper hang.

*aimee:* Please see my post above concerning AADR. And shame on you for doing what you did!

*hell no:* I guess it's just my area. I have not seen a "white" lab until only recently. Maybe the situation is reverse with merles in your area. I know for years you could see them (merles, not white labs) around here & all the time I ever had them no one ever questioned their purity until the merle policies were enacted by ADBA/UKC.

And if you want to continue to think merles are mixed, that is OK. It's your prerogative. All I ask is that before you go about spouting your *opinion* as fact that you please contact people who DO own purebred APBTs & talk to them. But I doubt that will happen. 

As for merle in Min Pins, it happens occasionally & from what I understand the breeders are not BYBs. But could you please explain it away?

As for why I breed merles I breed them b/c I breed good dogs. I don't care if the dog is black, white, blue, merle or purple with pink polka dots. And just as a side note, my main stud dog - & has been for years - has been a red brindle, not a merle. And I don't even like the color brindle! It's one of my LEAST favorite colors! But despite the fact that he's brindle & throws almost all brindle I still breed him b/c he's a good dog.

*Mcleod:* This article is often pointed to by merle haters. However, I take it with a grain of salt b/c Mr. Dowd has only scratched the very surface concerning the merle allele. He didn't touch on merle's lack of expression on phaelomelanin, nor did he touch on spontaneous mutation (known to be directly connected to the merle allele) & he also neglected to discuss the subject of cryptic merles.

All in all, like most merle haters, he stopped when he found information that suited his agenda & stopped there. So IMO his article is basically worthless. Now had he investigated ALL the aspects of merle thoroughly & came up with the same conclusion, I may give his article merit, but he didn't.

Well, TTFN. Have fun until I come back.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> *american_pit:* You can see what the site says. Read it for yourself. It's in black & white. I have done my research my dear & went straight to the site to get it. You obviously did not.
> 
> As for what they did for the person you knew & what they did for aimee, I can't speak on that as I don't know all the details about it. I know certain people in registries WILL do "favors" for others (like the Greenwoods did w/ Edgar Eddington) but I do not know if that is the case with yourself & aimee. Sounds like it is b/c it completely defies their registration standards as set forth by their registry itself. And as a side note, it sounds as if you keep some pretty scuzzy company if you're willing to know a person who would paper hang.
> 
> *aimee:* Please see my post above concerning AADR. And shame on you for doing what you did!


Are you that Naive. How does it matter what the site tells you??

There where no favors.

*#1 PRINT APPLICATION*
*#2 fill out the dogs name and breed*
*#3 Put in front and side pics to the envelope with application*
*#4 Put in check or money order*

Get back AADR registration papers so you can start your bloodline thru the AADR.

I don't see why thats so hard for you to get? Why do you keep stating what the site says when people have *DONE THIS*??

The AKC site says the Amstaffs nose is to be defiantly black.
However blue Amstaffs are shown.

But because the site says different does that change the fact that people show blue nosed dogs??? No it does not.

You can tell me over and over what the site says ( I can read) But that doesn't change the fact that they register dogs of no lineage and I have seen it done with more than one dog and done with litters. For nothing more than a fee.No one is friends with any one and no one is helping anyone out, you send money they send "papers".


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

OoOoOoOoOohhhhh!!!!! I wanna join the APBR now!!! I'ma just fill in some blanks and send in a pic with money order and Lugz is gonna be 100% Jeep now!!! Aghaahahahaha!!! You guys are fun.


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

ABK...would you think differently if you did not breed merles? if you dont mind answering a question...what made you decide to breed merles and back up the merle gene. especially if so many ppl disagree merles are purebred? i dont know about ne one else but the first time i saw a merle pit i was thinking what the heck is going on here. i copntacted the so called professional breeder and they almost had me believing merle pits could be purebred. just because in one area ppl never questioned the merle gene doesnt mean those ppl are smart...


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## ptw (Jan 8, 2009)

I will say this. Merles are beautiful to me and many other people. Seriously who gives a crap if they're "pure bred"? Dog lovers shouldn't care about such crap unless your dog is simply a status symbol for you. I refused papers on my last two dogs simply out of fear of BSL, their papers and lineage don't mean crap to me. I understand looking for a good breeder, but judging a dog off of bloodline has always seemed a bit stupid to me. Unless you're in it for the money...then by all means whore out your dog's line...but if you just love dogs and want to protect them, this crap is really silly.


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## IndianCreek (Dec 10, 2005)

I have to jump in here and say that while T.L. had the AADR the books were open, once the new owner gained control they were closed. You can still get a registration that enables you to participate in shows, but is now limited of you do not have proof of prior registry with a recognized group. The limited does not enable you to register pups off these first generation dogs. Similar to what the ADBA and UKC have done except they do not require that the dogs be S/N. The the new owner puts in a ton of time making calls and writing letters to verify all dogs registered now. So what you are saying is not accurate about the registration practices of the current AADR as they do require proof of registry with another group and must have the lineage of your dog to enable them to validate and sign papers that will allow people to breed and register pups off the dogs papered by the AADR.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Ugh! This was as simple as point and click.

To qualify for Registration, the dog must first be registered with a domestic registry acceptable to the AADR, such as the ADBA, BFKC, UKC or the ABKC. Additionally, the dog must be registered with the same name that appears on the certificate from the previous North American registry.
From AADR Site

So when did the books close???


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)




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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Hello all, I am back.

*american_pit:* You say there are no favors that go on in registries?? Are you serious? Do you know ANYTHING about the Whopper dogs & about how he was registered into the ADBA as a favor? What about how the ADBA registering CKC dogs or worse yet, what about the ADBA registering dogs with nothing but a 3 generation handwritten pedigrees?

You can squeak & squall about AADR all you like but if you've been in the breed any length of time you'll know the ADBA has done everything & anything every other registry has. In fact, the AADR was created b/c Mr. Williams got sick of the ADBA promoting the mixed bred Whopper dogs (the original dog of whom was registered in as a favor!)

*reddoggy:* We're discussing AADR not APBR. If you're going to be sarcastic, at least get it right. And the AADR books closed some years ago I believe.

*hell no:* I doubt I would feel differently b/c all my life merle has been an accepted color & I know the reason for the ban (at least on the ADBA's side).

As for why I breed them once again I breed them b/c I like good dogs. I don't care if the dog is blue, black, brindle, merle or green with pink polka dots, I'll use it. And I wasn't going to throw a good dog out b/c some people don't like the color of their fur or some KC decides it's a DQ.

Breeding good dogs is about breeding DOGS, not breeding to satisfy the public's or KC's opinion. Breeders bowing down to the whims of public or to the demands of the KC is why we have German Shepherds who run on their hocks, Cockers with such profuse coat they can't hunt & Bulldogs who can't even mate.

Now sure I've had my share of culls, but that is with any line/color. The ones that didn't tow the line are buried. The good ones that measured up I kept & used. But as I mentioned previously, my main stud dog for the last few years has been brindle, not merle. And I don't even LIKE brindles. But since he is a good dog, I use him despite the fact that he is brindle & produces mostly brindles.

Heck, I only have 1 merle on my yard right now (Trey recently passed away). The others I have are 8 brindles (ugh), 2 blacks & a blue. And remember now, I don't even LIKE brindle! But I pretty much have a yard full of them! If I were just breeding to produce the merle pattern don't you think I'd have a yardful of merle bitches & one non-merle male instead of 1 merle male & all others non-merle & mostly other males at that?

And I agree just b/c no one questions merle that it makes them smart. far from it. in fact I would go as far as to say if you accept anything WITHOUT questioning it, you're probably NOT very smart. But on the flip side of that coin those who question it aren't always smart either.

In fact I have found the latter to be true more than the former b/c the latter usually don't do as much research into the merle pattern. They just take what sounds good & run with it. I'd say 99.99% of anti-merle people are like this. They question the color, find a very basic answer & leave it at that, not venturing further lest it quash their firmly cemented opinion.

And please for the record don't think I didn't question merle. I have been asking questions & gathering & analyzing data for over a decade. Thus far it has been my conclusion that BOTH sides are right. Some merles ARE mixed. But other merles are purebred.

However this goes for other colors as well. There are mixed bred brindles. There are mixed bred rednoses. There are mixed bred blues. There are mixed bred blacks. There are mixed bred whites. This is one reason why is it is absolutely imperative that a buyer do their homework before buying a dog of ANY color.

*ptw:* There is an old game dog saying that goes "a good dog can't come in a bad color." But as much as this has been said, it is not believed. Many people will judge a dog on it's coat color alone. Blues & merles are especially prone to this. Blues are judged as "trash" & merles are judged as "mixed," quality of the dog be damned. it's a sad, bad fact but most folks DO judge a book by it's cover, all the while telling you they don't. lol.

*GAPits:* Thank you for clarifying this. And even though the books were open while Mr. Williams had the registry, once again I would like to point out to the general board this man was a true dog man who has more knowledge about the breed in his little finger than most of us do in our whole bodies combined. He created the AADR specifically to get away from the ADBA & their promotion of mixed breeds! So if he had a problem with merles or even so much as suspected merles were mixed, there is no way he would have ever allowed them into his registry. But most of you wouldn't know that.

Oh well. Once again I hope this helps. I may see you tomorrow.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> Hello all, I am back.
> 
> *american_pit:* You say there are no favors that go on in registries?? Are you serious? Do you know ANYTHING about the Whopper dogs & about how he was registered into the ADBA as a favor? What about how the ADBA registering CKC dogs or worse yet, what about the ADBA registering dogs with nothing but a 3 generation handwritten pedigrees?
> 
> You can squeak & squall about AADR all you like but if you've been in the breed any length of time you'll know the ADBA has done everything & anything every other registry has. In fact, the AADR was created b/c Mr. Williams got sick of the ADBA promoting the mixed bred Whopper dogs (the original dog of whom was registered in as a favor!)


Can you read?? I said that there where no favors involved with the registration involving me! First hand experience of registering non linage dogs with them...* No Favors* just 15 bucks 

Never did I say favors don't happen.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

*american_pit*: I'm glad you admit favors DO happen. Because they do. But how do I not know this wasn't the case with you?? I myself have NEVER know the AADR to register a dog of unknown lineage, so *something* must be going on somewhere ...

And again why in the world are you hanging out with folks who breed & even go so far as to register a dog with unknown lineage anyway??

And BTW you never did answer my question about blue being a DQ in some KCs & how you feel about this "fault" being bred for as well as it's connection to CDA. Surely you're as critical of one "fault" as you are the other ... aren't you? PM if you feel the need. lol.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

You know what ABK *shakes head* I was being sarcastic towards crap registries as a whole, APBR was the perfect example, coulda also gone with CKC on that one. This is gonna be a never ending battle for ya, which coulda been avoided had you not been knocking on bullies.....


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> *american_pit*: I'm glad you admit favors DO happen. Because they do. But how do I not know this wasn't the case with you?? I myself have NEVER know the AADR to register a dog of unknown lineage, so *something* must be going on somewhere ...
> 
> And again why in the world are you hanging out with folks who breed & even go so far as to register a dog with unknown lineage anyway??
> 
> And BTW you never did answer my question about blue being a DQ in some KCs & how you feel about this "fault" being bred for as well as it's connection to CDA. Surely you're as critical of one "fault" as you are the other ... aren't you? PM if you feel the need. lol.


I show UKC/ADBA Blue is not a disqualification in ANY kennel club that I see as reputable.

I have never nor do I know anyone who has had a blue dog have issues with random hair loss that is anything other than a pet. Unless it was a rescue I dealt with.

I don't know anyone who breeds blues with hair issues nor have I ever. Well I actually have never bred a blue dog as I don't care for them. I do own a blue that I produced and tho I am not fond of the color, she is the type of dog I am looking for, and I constantly tease her about having more to prove because she is a lazy blue dog.

On a serious note everyone here know my dogs are not blue they are dark fawn anyway 

Sorry inside joke.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

ABK said:


> *aimee:* Please see my post above concerning AADR. And shame on you for doing what you did!


I never hung any papers. It says right on them that she has no known ancestors. It doesn't say she has any parents let alone any that aren't hers. I never said she was out of anything she wasn't. No one did a favor for me. I was sixteen and the site said they could tell if your apbt was pure by looking at pics so I sent them pics. I wasn't doing anything wrong. The registry was. Looking back at it now I think they ripped me off for my fifteen dollars! They lied to me.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

american_pit13 said:


> On a serious note everyone here know my dogs are not blue they are dark fawn anyway


:rofl: AGhahahaha!!!!!!!! Ya'll have seen my red gotti dog Lugz right?


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

ABK...
Do you just enjoy fighting? It seems youre up against quite a few knowledgeable people and you will not even consider what theyre saying...we cant always be right...and its okay to admit defeat, no one will think any less of you.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

reddoggy said:


> You know what ABK *shakes head* I was being sarcastic towards crap registries as a whole, APBR was the perfect example, coulda also gone with CKC on that one. This is gonna be a never ending battle for ya, which coulda been avoided had you not been knocking on bullies.....


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

Thank you!


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## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)




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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> And as a side note, it sounds as if you keep some pretty scuzzy company if you're willing to know a person who would paper hang.


Who do I know that hangs papers? You do know what hanging papers is right? That means you say a litter or dog has relatives that it does not. I don't remember anyone saying that has happened so where do you get paper hanging from?

Less than 3 years ago the AADR site said

*Send us side and front pictures of you dog and we can say if it is purebred and send you papers

Complete application below
FEE $15*

Hmm sounds more like a bunk registry than someone hanging papers.

Oh an also since you are having reading problems agian Aimee ( who I hang out with) has never bred a litter of dogs. EVER. She is defiantly a poor BYB can't even get herself a litter


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

Aidan said:


>


OMFG!!! I can't stop laughing!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## IndianCreek (Dec 10, 2005)

The date of closure was the beginning of 2009


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

ptw said:


> I will say this. Merles are beautiful to me and many other people. Seriously who gives a crap if they're "pure bred"? Dog lovers shouldn't care about such crap unless your dog is simply a status symbol for you. I refused papers on my last two dogs simply out of fear of BSL, their papers and lineage don't mean crap to me. I understand looking for a good breeder, but judging a dog off of bloodline has always seemed a bit stupid to me. Unless you're in it for the money...then by all means whore out your dog's line...but if you just love dogs and want to protect them, this crap is really silly.


It isnt a matter of whos dog is better the mutt or the purebred. it is a matter of what is best for the breed.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I'm still waiting to see pictures of merle dogs older than, say, the 80s. That would go a long way towards convincing me. As for Dr. D having an agenda, come on now. I know you're being jumped on a bit, ABK, but don't play like that. If the man has an agenda, its improvement of the breed and nothing more.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

the dog that is under the brindle one looks just like an alapha blue blood bulldog they are always white with merel patches. I'm not sure it's true but I heard that a merel is a fault in the shows because the merel geene could come with blindness or deafness.Any one know if that is true.


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> I'm still waiting to see pictures of merle dogs older than, say, the 80s. That would go a long way towards convincing me.


im with you on that!


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

JFlowersLA said:


> If merle isn't accepted as a ADBA color then why do people breed them still and why does the ADBA still register them?
> 
> Like BTK said, it's a crossbred dog because merle has never or will never show up in these dogs.


your right, do you guys know what an alapha blue blood bulldog is some of these merels look just like them do u think thats what they are crossed with to make that color?


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

I know you all have read this...but IDK how you can say this guy has an agenda. Conspiracy theorists.

American Pit Bull Terrier Network Merle and the Pit Bull


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

If these dogs cant be shown then why are they being bred and sold for outragious prices. It just seems like if they could come with blindness and deafness then shouldnt that be weeded out by not breeding them


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

people are born with blindness and deafness. should we stop breeding? 

and b4 all u get pi$$y i was being sarcastic.


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## JFlowersLA (Oct 14, 2009)

kg420 said:


> If these dogs cant be shown then why are they being bred and sold for outragious prices. It just seems like if they could come with blindness and deafness then shouldnt that be weeded out by not breeding them


That's the point that this thread was attempting to state that the Merle shouldn't be bred and be considered an APBT because it's creation can't be determined as being a true color of the APBT.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Lots of people breed without showing. Some breed for performance or the pit, others breed for the prosperity of their wallets. Updating the breed standards to impact certain dogs in the show ring only affects those people who show.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

vdubbinya said:


> people are born with blindness and deafness. should we stop breeding?


I've been saying for years...... YES!


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

vdubbinya said:


> people are born with blindness and deafness. should we stop breeding?
> 
> and b4 all u get pi$$y i was being sarcastic.


I just think when your breeding dogs you should look for healthy puppies and you shouldn't breed a dog that could pass down health problems to it's puppies. It should be health and temperment, not coat and eye color. :[


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Hello all. I'm back. I had to take another break again.

*reddoggy:* I apologize for not recognizing your attempt at sarcasm. But I agree wholeheartedly this will be a never-ending battle as the anti-merle folks here are too lazy (or scared) to actually do any in depth research as it may upset their perfectly balanced apple cart they have in their heads concerning merles.

As for my "bashing" bullies, I don't see where I bashed them at all. I simply called them what they were & the owners of such dogs just didn't like it.

*american_pit: * The issue was not the club being reputable the issue was the color is considered by some to be a fault & was not your argument that faults should not be bred? But if you want reputable, let's try AKC. AKC has made blue a fault in some breeds b/c of blues direct connection to CDA.

As for blues having skin issues, I remember some blues back in the 90s having health issues, but folks still bred for them. Heck, I knew a line of blues - one that is still popular to this day in fact - that not only had skin issues, but produced dogs with a predisposition to cancer, both inhalant & contact allergies (one I knew had a contact allergy to grass!), deformities of the mouth & teeth & heart valve problems among other things! Should this line of blues been culled? By traditional thinking, yes. But was it? No.

And yes, I know what hanging papers is. Thank you for the clarification though! 

And thank you for the alleged info from the AADR. But I hate to break it to you my dear, but that was the registration policy for the ADBA for almost 100 years. Wait, I'm sorry, I was wrong. ADBA didn't even require photos! All ADBA required was a handwritten 3 generation pedigree & 2 signatures. This was the policy until about 1999 or so. In fact, I myself once purchased a dog in 1999. The breeder had the papers but I had to order the pedigree. When I got the pedigree back from the ADBA there were spots in the pedigree where a dog was single registered in & for the ancestry it simply said "unknown" on the pedigree lines (I got rid of this dog BTW!). So is ADBA a bunk registry as well? Please reply. I'd absolutely love to hear your opinion on this one!

And I don't know the status on amiee. But I do know when talking about the subject she said *I *sent in the application, *I* sent in the money, ect. Her first person usage lead one to believe that it was SHE who did that dirty deed! If it was not her, I would suggest she should use proper verbage next time.

*aimee:* You say YOU didn't do this & YOU didn't do that, but later on in your post you say it was YOU who registered the mom & litter! Are not the following your own words?

- "*"I *sent them pics."

- "*I *have PERSONALLY registered dogs of unknown heritage with them..."

I'm sure there is more, but I didn't look for all of them.

Then there's that oh-so-great company you keep ...

" and *(I) *know a boxerXpit who not only did they register her by pictures, but also registered a litter of puppies from her ..."

And then you question the purity of your own dogs - oops forgot - your mom's dogs that YOU registered ...

"Looking back at it now I think they ripped me off for my fifteen dollars! They lied to me"

Going by your own words on the matter you aren't any better than any merle breeder out there or any any POS bully breeder out there selling EB mixes as purebred APBTs for that matter. I would like to say what is really on my mind concerning you, but it would be exceedingly rude, so I will keep my mouth shut.

*my girl: * No, I don't enjoy fighting. Why do you think I have to take breaks from this place?

As for knowledgeable people, I'm sure there ARE some knowledgeable people here. But not about merle. Most people here I've seen post seem to know zero about merle. They appear to have only the very basic information concerning the pattern. So yes, while they are likely knowledgeable in general, knowledgeable in merle? Mmmmmmm ... thus far I'd have to say no.

As for the "Conspiracy Theory" idea, please see my reply to bahamutt.

As for admitting defeat, thank you for the offer, but I see no reason to admit defeat to people who for the most part have no idea about the subject on which they choose to speak on. All that would do is allow them to think they were right, when they most certainly are not.

*GaPits:* Thank you once again for clarification.

But I will once again point out to the general board that that Mr. Williams did NOT support mixed breeding & if at any time would a dog have applied for entry into his kennel club it would likely have been denied. He created the AADR to get AWAY from mixed breeds. As such, I doubt he would admit any. And my dogs were registered in when Mr. Williams himself has sole control of the registry. In fact, some of the older certificates on my merles were authorized & signed by Mr. Williams himself!

*hell no:* If it's a matter of what is best for the breed then why don't we ...

... stop breeding blues since blue is directly connected to CDA?

... stop breeding blacks since black is directly connected to follicular dysplasia?

... stop breeding white or white headed dogs since both white or white heads are directly connected to deafness?

... stop breeding catch weight dogs since it has been found bigger dogs have a 3 time higher incidence of hip dysplasia than small to medium sized dogs?

... stop breeding red dogs since it has been found red dogs often have a higher incidence of skin infections?

In fact, let me take it one step further - if we're talking about what's best for the breed, why haven't we transitioned over to the German system where a dog can only be registered & bred after it is fully physically matured & passed all health exams?? All this would be bettering the breed, but I don't see ANY of it happening any time soon (if ever). So the "betterment of the breed" thing holds absolutely no water with me.

*baha *: If he did not have an agenda, why would he stop at only the very elementary basic merle genetics? Why would he not have examined the subject 110% thoroughly? But he didn't. He found the info that supported his POV & stopped there. He thus rendered his article (in my eyes) self-serving & at best something worthy of wiping one's fanny with.

Now once again, I will say that had he examined merle to it's fullest, exploring ALL aspects of the allele & came to the same conclusion, I would give his article the fullest credence. But he didn't. Again, he just found info that supported his POV & stopped. So to me it's no better than a half written book report.

As for "betterment of the breed" excuse, please see my reply to hell no above.

Finally as for your picture request, I wish I had one, but I myself didn't get merles until the 90s. I have interviewed breeders & gotten pictures of dogs but as far as old, the only thing I have is an old drawing of a merle which I am sure most everyone has seen before. There is a pic of a merle in a Stratton book, but I don't know the publishing date of the book. But Mr. Stratton doesn't question the color & he has been around the breed way longer than all of us have.

*kg420:* I have seen several Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldogs (ABBB). I think you mat be mixing them up with Catahoula Bulldogs (CatBulls). CatBulls are usually (but not always) white with merle patches. ABBBs on the other hand are usually (but not always) merle with white Irish markings. Both breeds are beautiful dogs in their own rights.

As for blindness & deafness, a heterozygous merle (a dog with one merle parent & one non-merle parent) their eyes & ears are usually as fine as a dog of any other color. But a homozygous merle (a dog with two merle parents) can certainly be blind, deaf (or both!) as merle can be defective in it's pure form. But avoiding defects is simple - don't breed 2 merles together. Simple as that! 

Now could some of these dogs been bred with an ABBB, CatBull or even a straight up Catahoula to get the color? Sure. I have always been of the opinion some of these dogs could have been mixed & never tried to pawn all merles off as pure (a point all the merle haters seem to always overlook). 
BUT ... I know of merles that I am thoroughly convinced are purebred as well.

However, as I mentioned before, mixed breeds come in all colors. Here are some colors I know of that contain mixed breeds - black, blue, brindle, rednose & white. But does this mean ALL blacks, blues, brindles, etc. are mixed? Of course not! Just as not all merles are mixed. Could some be? YES. But not all are.

And not all are being bred & sold for outrageous prices. Now true, you do have some "greeders" out there who do rip people off, but again that happens in all colors. Strangely bully breeders are the worst for ripping people off & rarely are THEIR dogs merle. They're usually any color but! How ironic!

But to get back on track, there are others like myself who sell merles for reasonable prices. I have thus far sold almost all mine $150 altered. The $150 basically covers what I have in the S/N, so I make NO money on that. Others if I like the home & think they'll do right by the pup, I will GIVE them the pup free, so I'm not making money on that either. Any I sold intact were $300. Hardly what I would call "outrageous prices."

*JFlowers:* If someone wanted to be totally honest, the jury is out concerning merle. There is proof for a mix & there is proof for purebreds. But if one wanted to remain "true" to the APBT there is no way merles should be disallowed but those bow-legged, barrel-chested, sawed off pumpkin headed English Bulldog wanna-bes folks call bullies (or "pocket bullies") should ever be bred either, let alone bred & then called APBTs! That is IMO a much more of a deviation from true type than a dog who is in all ways APBT correct save for what some folks think is an abnormal coat color!

And as a side note, the great dog man Howdard Heinzl was of the steadfast opinion that black was not an APBT color & at one time the ADBa almost banned black & tans. And I'm all sure you remember the controversy around blues. Before merle hit the public eye many thought blues were mixed breeds as well. So this "it's not purebred" judgment based on coat color is not a new thing.

Oh well, I think I covered everything. I will be back later.


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

ABK reputable breeders DO get dogs health examinations and wait till they are mature to breed. we are not talking bybs here! i have never heard of the black thing. but i have owned many black apbts and no problems with them what so ever. reds and other colors were in the breed from the start. many breeds have colors with issues. some breeds it is normal to be merle. like you said there are already colors in the breed that can have health issues...so to me you are justifying yourself for adding more health issues. we like the way things were meant to be and most dog ppl are the same with other breeds even if there are some health issues with color...just beacause there are already health issues does NOT make it ok to add more! i think reputable breeders help improve the breed weather its reds, blues,blacks,brindles and so on. they help because they are sticking to the foundation and dont fancy straying from what breed standards call for. they do not add anything to be flashy they do not add things that can cause more health issues then there already are. i do not see health issues from color coming from reputable breeders. i am not saying original breed colors such as white cant cause issues. but it is safer to breed then merle. so i am assuming from your statements you do not care about helping to better the breed and are trying to find a scape goat as to why breeding merle is ok.? this is what i get from you...and to me you might as well be saying this. there are already health issues with the breed...so why not...?! ne ways to sum everything up once more. i dont think one breed is not prone to any genetic health issues from breeding...but you dont see REAL breeders making things worse. also why do you keep going back to bullies!? and how people breed bullies. this isnt about bullies.it is about apbts so lets not talk crap on bully breeders and talk about what this thread was meant for.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Alright ABK

I'd love to have a battle of wits with you.....but you appear unarmed. 

*
You can't read *and so I am done arguing with you.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

All in all, it comes down to Merle is an unacceptable trait, as in blue eyes. If its unacceptable, all youre doing is breeding dogs that will add to the overpopulation problem.

You do realize youre being utterly ridiculous? You think YOURE the one with all the answers when you absolutely have at least 5 people TELLING you reasons as to why youre incorrect, yet you still vehemently deny people here having knowledge.

Since you have all the knowledge, Im curious as to why youre even here?


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

*hell no: * Here is a link on follicular dysplasia: Black Hair Follicular Dysplasia in Dogs

As you can see it is a condition directly affecting black dogs.

As for "justifying" anything, far from it. My merles (I can't speak for anyone else's but I can speak for mine) are as healthy as virtually any other color. Other colors - several other colors in fact - have their own defects directly associated with them. So the "don't breed merle it's defective" boat doesn't float, unless of course you're willing to cull every other color that has defects associated with it, which I highly doubt anyone is. lol.

As for not fancying straying from breed standard ...

1: Merle has been in the breed standard for almost 100 years.

2: What the heck are bullies????? Almost all bullies stray from breed standard! In fact, the UKC standard was recently revised to make their disapproval of bullies more clear!

And yes, I agree, reputable breeders do not produce as many defective dogs - of ANY color. I have been around merles for over a decade & only twice did I run across any merles who were defective & both times those dogs came from a breeder breeding for $$$ & not the betterment of the breed.

The fact is, if bred properly, merle is just as healthy as most other colors.

As for why I bring up bullies, the reason is two-fold.

1: This thread was started b/c I said something to offend bully fanciers.

2: The anti-merle people (here anyway) are often bully fanciers & most bullies are mixed & as out of standard as any merle! So how can one support bullies yet condemn merles?

*american_pit:* There is no arguing. I used statements that came out of your own mouth. So I agree. Let our conversation be done. You have already exposed yourself for what you are. 

*my girl:* 100 people can tell you something, but it doesn't mean it's right. For example, if I go outside & see the sky is blue but if I meet 5 people that tell me it's brown, should I believe them? Or should I believe my own eyes & my own research?

The fact is, there are some very educated people here. I will not deny that. But there are very few who are educated about the subject of merle. Now do I have all the answers? Certainly not. I wish I did. But I will hazard to say I do know more than most here concerning the merle pattern.

And it's not b/c I'm better than anyone here or smarter than anyone here, it's b/c I have lived with merle, observed merle & studied merle in both my dogs as well dogs of others for over a decade.

And to answer your question as to why I am here, someone invited me here.


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## Akasha (Oct 30, 2009)

I am curious as what performance would say about this.....


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ABK said:


> *american_pit:* There is no arguing. I used statements that came out of your own mouth. So I agree. Let our conversation be done. You have already exposed yourself for what you are.


LMAO, Yes I am sure I have..........

Actually you used statements from me and said Aimee said them so you don't even know who you are quoting lmao.:hammer:


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

I'll review the thread, but I apologize if I got you mixed up. It's my "old age." lol.


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## Akasha (Oct 30, 2009)

American Dog Breeders Association

This article talks about how Merle is dominant and recessive gene. Not to mention it is determined that the pattern can be related to health problems. Finally it says that this "Merle" pattern has shown up in other dog breeds. Most "show" organizations won't except a "Merle" it seems because they are considered "weak". I'm here to argue; I'm just here to share a few details on what I found out about Merle patterned dogs.

Here is something that states Merle is not a recoginized color in APBT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_(coat_colour_in_dogs)

Just my 2 cents and I'm done ~ Enjoy your reading ABK


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

ABK, if I am understanding correctly, the article was written to present to the UKC or NAPBTA about prohibiting merle in the show ring. I don't doubt that further research was done, as genetic stuff is what Scot does for a living. There is probably additional information that was not posted in that article in the interest of space constraints.

As for photos, the earliest I've seen was in one of the Stratton books which was published in the 80s. I posted it on G-D, I think. But here it is again...










We already established elsewhere that Colby's Merle was not a merle but was named after Merle Oberon the actress. And I think I've seen the drawing you speak of. A dog named Sharkey? He's shown having one blue eye and I think a brindle coat. Which begs the question if mismatched eyes are always related to the merle gene. I haven't seen that question answered, so I don't know.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> A dog named Sharkey? He's shown having one blue eye and I think a brindle coat. Which begs the question if mismatched eyes are always related to the merle gene. I haven't seen that question answered, so I don't know.












He belived the blue eye was a merle trait.


pitbullfanatic said:


> The illustration dated 1962. Look at the left eye. This is a Merle trait.
> 
> Wallace's Hillbilly (unhighlighted) - For comparison purposes.
> 
> ...


I have closed this old thread but it has good info on the debate for or against Merles.
http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/11766-merle-4.html


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Do the dogs with one or two blue eyes have lots of white? If so maybe it has something to do with a different gene that merle dogs also have?


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

This dog looks like it has brown eyes. I think eye colors might have some other genes causing them to change color besides the ones that change coat color that also seem to affect eye color.


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## Venom (Oct 5, 2009)

I think they look beautiful...


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

ABK said:


> Hello all. I'm back. I had to take another break again.
> 
> *reddoggy:* I apologize for not recognizing your attempt at sarcasm. But I agree wholeheartedly this will be a never-ending battle as the anti-merle folks here are too lazy (or scared) to actually do any in depth research as it may upset their perfectly balanced apple cart they have in their heads concerning merles.
> 
> ...


Right when you start to sound educated your ignorance shines through with childish insults...lol...once again you never fail to amuse me! "Pumpkin headed" lol...I will rise above and keep my mouth shut...


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

ABK you can say what you like. but we all know the truth. just curiouse tho...are you even trying to look at things from everyone elses point of view. i totally hear you out on what you are syaing but it sounds like you are just ignoring what everyone else is saying and are trying to make yourself look better then all of us..."anti merle folks are too lazy(or scared) to do any in depth research..." just because ppl dont see eye to eye with you does not mean any one is "too lazy" to do research. maybe you should listen more then preach. i try to see things eye to eye with you...but you insult all of us. i dunno...maybe this is a worthless argument. i still think this is nothing more then justification.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Hello all. I'm back.

*Akasha:* I am familiar with the ADBA's merle article & all it does in fact further the fact that merle is indeed a apttern that can be found naturally in the breed.

And yes, merle can be found with health problems. But as mentioned before (at least twice) so can other colors.

As for most KCs considering it a "weak" color I have found no evidence to support that. AKC accepts merle breeds. UKC accepts merle breeds. The KC of Britain accepts merle breeds. I will venture to say most KCs world wide accept merle breeds. So your statement of merle being weak & thus undesirable in KCs is not correct.

*baha:* You could be right. He may have done the research but left out some info. But that only furthers what I mentioned about him earlier. He presented only what suited his agenda.

As for the pics, yes, that is the one I was thinking of. I don't know the date of publishing on the book. But even if it was in the 80s that is a good 10 years or so before the merle fad hit.

The drawing I speak of is not Sharkey. This one is a black & white drawing of a merle dog with cropped ears.

As for mismatched eyes, they are not always related to the merle gene, but many, many merles, cryptic & otherwise, do have either blue eyes, bi-eyes or marbled eyes. In fact, when the coat is questionable one way to tell whether a dog is merle or not to to examine the nose (most - but not all - have butterfly noses) & the eyes.

*hell no:* I have tried to see things from the anti's POV but I can't do it. It's too small. All I see are a bunch of people sitting back on their fannies too scared or lazy to do anything but type support for their preconceived notions. Out of all the discussions I have ever had, not ONCE have I EVER had an anti come back to me either publicly or privately & say "You know I checked this out & found xxx." or "I talked to this person you recommended & found xxx." They NEVER talk to anyone or do ANY research. Like I said, the antis have already made up their mind & don't want to do anything that would upset their apple cart.

*EDIT: *I wanted to add a link to my updated article on merle in the APBT. It has lots of pictures, touches on different kinds of merle to include cryptic merles, merle eye color as well the possible finding merle in breeds that supposedly don't carry it - like the French Bulldog! Here is the link sound anyone wish to read it: http://abkapbts.webs.com/merleintheapbt.htm


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

ABK, merle may not have been a fad at that point, but is it possible that around that time is when it was introduced? If it was in the breed in, say, 1930, you'd think we'd be seeing it in AmStaffs, too. I'd be interested in knowing what bloodlines are producing merle and how wide-spread it is.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

I don't know if you'd see it in AmStaffs or not, I'm sure you've heard of the lady that claimed to have 2 merle ASTs. I don't know if they wwre ASTs or not, but she claimed they were. But if they selected against it as they do liver & B&T, it would be fairly easy to breed out I would think.

The gentleman who had the blue merle pop up in his litter had Nigerino dogs. But he never had a merle before or since. I owned a red merle from VA. that was Carver bred & my blue merle & chocolate merle were Blue Bully x Bullyson crosses. I know a lot of merles of all colors in the NC/SC area are coming down from the Man O' Steel line.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Has anyone ever done DNA on solo merles to make sure they were from the same sire as the rest of the litter? I remember on another board someone was showing off these black-nosed brindle puppies that they swore came from two rednose parents. The more genetically-minded members challenged her to produce DNA on the puppies and she disappeared. Just thinking out loud...


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Ok merel fault or not, are you not breeding for color?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Was that question directed at ABK? I think breeding to avoid a color that is proven to produce more than its share of defects and which is also discouraged in the standard is not breeding for color per se. I personally would not breed for the dilution gene either (ie, blue, blue fawn, etc). That's just choosing not to include colors that could come with baggage.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

How do merles just pop up if it is dominate.


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

ive seen a whole litter for sale but all the stuff i read says merle is not possable in our breed


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## CallieBum73 (Aug 29, 2009)

I find this all very interesting! The genetics and all. Being a great dane enthusist for years and years I have seen my share of merle danes. Almost all had health problems and temperment issues. From what I connected the merles came from harlequin breedings (though beautiful dogs, the harlequins seem to have a rather shallow gene pool). Also where the mantle colors are bred from. I have seen mantle pattern dogs in members pits here, and now merles, are there any harlequin pitbulls??????


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

CallieBum73 said:


> Also where the mantle colors are bred from. I have seen mantle pattern dogs in members pits here, and now merles, are there any harlequin pitbulls??????


mantle and harlequin are not colors. They are the way the dog is marked.

APBTS are not defined by markings. A harlequin or mantle APBT would just be called black and white.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

FWIW, I've never seen the harlequin pattern in an APBT. I've always been curious about that pattern's relationship with merle.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> FWIW, I've never seen the harlequin pattern in an APBT. I've always been curious about that pattern's relationship with merle.


I would wonder that with danes to since they can be Harlequin with Merle patches.


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## CallieBum73 (Aug 29, 2009)

I get asked all the time what Lola (my mantle dane) is mixed with. Because she is a mantle and her ears are not cropped. Her mother was Harl and her father black. She was the only mantle of the litter. Lots of merles and harls..and harls with merle patches. Wasnt until a few years ago that the mantles were accepted by the AKC. You can reg. merles, but they are still undesirable. Just pointing out that most kennel clubs would reg. a rock if you sent the 40 bucks in for it. Certainly dosent constitute it being breed worthy. Just sayin....


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

That makes a point to. 

If kennel clubs are going to lose the money of registering merle dogs there has to be a good reason. 

Such as the UKC and ADBA. Everyone knows registries are about money, no secret there, but if they are willing to lose out just to not register a color...............


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## Akasha (Oct 30, 2009)

ABK said:


> Hello all. I'm back.
> 
> *Akasha:* I am familiar with the ADBA's merle article & all it does in fact further the fact that merle is indeed a apttern that can be found naturally in the breed.
> 
> ...


You may not have found edvience to support weakness, but look at the 3rd paragraph....

American Dog Breeders Association


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Hello all. I'm back again. I just haven't found time to be on the boards lately. In fact, I'm supposed to be cleaning the house right now, but I'm not (Shhhhhh!)

*baha:* No one (that I know of anyway) has done DNA on a mutation merle. There are only 2 I know of, the Boham case & the WYK case.

Boham's Venom, was a blacknosed chocolate merle (which means her base coat was seal). Her parents were both rednosed & the ADBA launched an investigation as a result. They said you can't get a blacknose out of 2 rednoses & wanted Mr. Boham to prove the dog was bred as papered, but he never got back in contact with the ADBA. The ADBA voided the papers on all Venom bred dogs as a result. But b/c of that, that was pretty much got rid of most merles since the man who owned Boham's Venom, H. Madson was pimping the tar out of her & her merle offspring. That man alone was likely responsible for 75% of the merles you see today.

WYK meanwhile was a honest dog man & was as baffled as I was when he came to me with his merle pup. He didn't DNA it, but I highly doubt he'd lie about it. Furthermore the pup died at a young age from unknown causes which further goes to support the idea the pup was the result of a mutation.

As to your question about harlequins, yes, APBTs can come in harlequin. I've had 2. They were littermates. Harlequin & "merlequin" occurs (in our breed anyway) when merle matches up with extreme white piebald, resulting in a dog who has either black & grey (for a harlequin) patches on a white background or any color merle (for a merlequin) patches on a white background instead of on a colored background. Sadly though both of mine died as pups. But you can see a picture of one on my website. It's been added to the "Merle in the APBT" article.

*OFK:* It depends on which KC you go to as to whether merle is a fault or not. ADBA & UKC, yes. Almost everyone else, no. But that goes for other colors as well. For example there is at least one KC who has made any shade of blue a specific fault.

As for breeding for color, I'm not. If I were breeding for color I wouldn't have a yard that is mostly brindle! I don't even like the color brindle! If I were breeding for color, I'd have a yard full of dogs that were colored I liked!

*american_pit:* Merles can just "pop up" via mutation or through one parent being a cryptic.

As for why UKC/ADBA chose to make merle a DQ, UKC I do not know. But ADBA I do know. The man mentioned above who owned Venom was selling merles by the basketful. He decided to try to produce more merles per litter by breeding merle x merle, which as most people know is a HUGE no-no. When I advised him against it, he told me he was just going to do it as an "experiment" & keep the resulting pups. Yeah right. He sold those pups like he did everything else.

Soon I began getting calls from disgrundled customers of his saying their dog had this defect or that defect & that HM wouldn't make it right. I told them there was nothing I could do about it & to call the ADBA. After *several* such calls & e-mails - all of which I directed to the ADBA - it wasn't long before ADBA launched their investigation on the Venom dog & voided the papers on all Venom bred animals.

Shortly thereafter all merles from 2005 forward were banned. I believe this was done to keep the defective Venom bred merles out of the gene pool b/c all HM &/or some of the people he sold to would have done was hung papers from another merle line on their defective Venom dogs & went on their way. But banning merle as a whole solves this problem. Not fair, not right, but effective.

And as a side note, please remember the ADBA hasn't completely disowned merles. Offspring from non-Venom bred merles can still be ADBA registered, so long as the pup itself is not merle.

*gxkon:* Please read the ADBA's website concerning merle. It not only says merle is possible in our breed, but it says merle has been in our breed since the ADBA's inception (1909!)

*Akasha:* Yes, I am well aware of what certain people say about the health of merle dogs. I wouldn't own one, let alone breed one without knowing this! The fact is a heterozygous merle is usually as healthy as most other colors.

OK, I have answered question upon question, now I have a question for all of you. Has ANYONE here heard of any other bull breeds used in the creation of the APBT? We all know the imported UK dogs were bred up by some people for use as farm dogs & the like. How were dogs who weighed in the high 20s - low 30s bred up to the standard of 50 lbs? Was it by breeding big dog to big dog or could have another bull breed been introduced? Your opinion & why.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

ABK, I don't know how far back we'd go, but I'd imagine there were other things used back in the day. No doubt along the way there've been some who've added a dash of this or that to try and hop on the whole hybrid vigor thing. I personally wouldn't speculate because I don't know if the size increase was selective breeding or crossing. I've always heard the argument not to hate on people breeding mutts in the present day because all dogs came from mutts, and its pure silliness to me. LOL!


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## _blondie_ (May 2, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> I have never seen one in person


the blond brindle pitbull in your picture looks exactly like mine 
iv never seen one like that besides my dog.
:woof:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Old thread, didn't bother reading. Merle = more health problems, potential unstable temperament and mixed.


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## SparkleMotion14 (Jan 22, 2021)

BullyTheKid said:


> I'm not a color genetics expert, but from what I've read and educated people I've spoken to the color pattern is not possible in our breed. I tend to believe them, so how many purebred have I seen, the answer is none for me, and I never will.


Yes, you are correct. Merle on pit bulls are a genetic abnormality. Dogs like Great Danes can be Merle but that is not a genetic abnormality for them. Merle pit bulls are the rarest color of pit bulls which makes them so unique and desirable. I think the Leopard Merle pitties are gorgeous! But I think all Merle pits are beautiful. Oh who am I kidding... all bully type dogs are beautiful! ♥


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

SparkleMotion14 said:


> Yes, you are correct. Merle on pit bulls are a genetic abnormality. Dogs like Great Danes can be Merle but that is not a genetic abnormality for them. Merle pit bulls are the rarest color of pit bulls which makes them so unique and desirable. I think the Leopard Merle pitties are gorgeous! But I think all Merle pits are beautiful. Oh who am I kidding... all bully type dogs are beautiful! ♥


APBTs do NOT come in merle. It's not rare, it's not a pit dog. It's a mix breed.
But I totally agree on all bull breeds being good looking dogs. For the most part anyways.


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## johnoosthuizen (Feb 21, 2021)

Blue eys with a white grayish tint...her name is Zoey...health wise she's OK but have very little to no fur on earlobes and nose...she very much prone to sunburn...
I'm from the Secunda Surrounding areas in Mpumalanga South Africa









Sent from my LG-K520 using Tapatalk


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## jttar (Jan 31, 2013)

Zoey is a looker Johnoosthuizen. Love the patch over her right eye.

Joe


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## CamiDRamsey (Mar 19, 2021)

BullyTheKid said:


> I'm not a color genetics expert, but from what I've read and educated people I've spoken to the color pattern is not possible in our breed. I tend to believe them, so how many purebred have I seen, the answer is none for me, and I never will.


I have a pure APBT and she is a reverse blue brindle, but her brother was a merle. It is possible, but it is a recessive gene. I study pedigrees and gene mutation/expression (it’s a hobby of mine) and it is completely possible, just extremely uncommon. Just like heterochromia in pit bulls; heterochromia is expressed on the same allele as the piebald gene which is also recessive, hence why almost all pits with heterochromia also express piebald.


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