# Muscle tone & spaying



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

I am getting Bella spayed in March of 2012 and she will be 19 months old by the time she goes in. I was going to show her but she has some issues so I will pursue that with my next dog I get. My question is, once spayed (based on an older adult female, not a puppy) will she lose muscle tone? She is in excellent shape with a nice tuck and I still plan on working her the same way we always have after she's spayed. I've always owned male GSD's and some were intact there whole lives while my last two boys I owned were neutered. I know some people have that mindset where a fixed dog gets fat but in reality it is all in there diet and excercise. This is just something that I have been thinking about seeing as how she is my first bulldog and female, and she is getting spayed later in life as oppossed to her being a pup. I figured I'd ask since I don't recall this question ever coming up. I know a few people on here have males that were neutered later in life and still look pretty shredded  I'm assuming if the excercise stays the same and I watch her calorie intake she will remain the same after the surgery. I have had many fixed pets over the years and they were never fat but they didn't have buldging biceps as my bully girl ( you can't see a GSD's muscles because of all the fur  ) so this is why I'm curious for info. Thanks


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Not sure about muscles, but you are right, pre-neuter he ate 3 cups a day, after he gained a few pounds because I didn't realize I should have cut his food, workouts were the same. He gained some and now only gets half that, 3/4 cup in the morning, 3/4 at night. He is WAY into food now since his neuter, he used to sit on his bed and be fine during dinner, now he gets a drool puddle and for a while would try and inch over under the table until I caught him and put him back on his bed, poor guy...


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

LOL! Ames, Bella is a chow hound and very food driven and she isn't even fixed yet LOL! Sometimes I feel that it's all in the persons head that there dog has somehow changed because they are fixed now lol! I've always kept my dogs on the leaner side anyways fixed or not. I have seen MANY fat un-fixed males given the fact that I worked as a dog groomer for years. I groomed a fat GSD and golden the other day that were both intact but these dogs are lawn ornaments and couch potatoes as well as fed to much I'm sure.... so there you go. Lack of physical activity neutered or not will affect weight. 

My thing with this breed is that there muscles are just so exposed because of there short tiny hairs...... well, some more than others  That's why I ask....given the shape and muscle tone of my girl and being an older bitch getting spayed will she lose muscle tone because of lack of hormones. Just curious really.....it's not going to make me not spay her.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

no it wasn't in my head, lol. Without thoughts of chasing bitches 24x7 he had time to realize food kinda rocked, lol. had to cut food and got him the spring pole to add additional stuff to what we were doing, more treadmill time, etc. I should have started the food decrease initially, but the vet never mentioned it until after he put on some pounds. (and he had a foot issue so he could not exercise like normal during the beginning too, poor Mel he is a mess)


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

ames said:


> no it wasn't in my head, lol. Without thoughts of chasing bitches 24x7 he had time to realize food kinda rocked, lol. had to cut food and got him the spring pole to add additional stuff to what we were doing, more treadmill time, etc. I should have started the food decrease initially, but the vet never mentioned it until after he put on some pounds. (and he had a foot issue so he could not exercise like normal during the beginning too, poor Mel he is a mess)


LOL! Food now rocks :rofl: I remember him having a foot issue not to long after he got fixed. Definitely will put weight on when they can't excercise at all  Poor Mel! but now he is looking banging


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Tempest was spayed at 6 months and that bitch has muscles for days! It's all in how you work them and keep them in shape. Had I kept her intact I think she would have filled out more ad her chest would have dropped more but spaying her early kept her from maturing.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Lisa, I just looked at the "pups just in time for christmas" thread and saw the pic of tempest ....she is ripped so obviously like you said.....It depends on how you work them. Why did you spay her so young though if she is a working dog? I know I feel the same as you about the s/n topic


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## Chimera Kennels (Jun 23, 2011)

Conditioning, nutrition, genetics and good judgement all play a role...but so do steroids. When a dog is spayed/neutered...you lose the primary steroid producing organs...the gonads.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Chimera Kennels said:


> Conditioning, nutrition, genetics and good judgement all play a role...but so do steroids. When a dog is spayed/neutered...you lose the primary steroid producing organs...the gonads.


Testicles my bitch doesn't have lol! All my years of working with dogs I've seen huge differences in say a male rottweiler who was neutered at 6 months and a male who was neutered at two or three yrs of age. Testosterone does play a role in growth or hormones for that matter. Older neutered males had larger heads, bone mass, and and all around better structure than a fixed male at 6 months .Once a dog or bitch is done fully maturing I assume or have read studies that once spayed or neutered there won't be any ill affects at that point to there growth because by 14 to 18 months there growth platelets are closed. The main thing to worry about then would be over feeding and lack of exercise which is why most pets today are fat!


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## Chimera Kennels (Jun 23, 2011)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Testicles my bitch doesn't have lol!


Testicles...no...but gonads...yes...or at least she used to have them.

Gonads include testicles in the male and ovaries in the female.

Both sexes produce steroids in the gonads. The sex of course influences which steroids will be predominant. The gonads produce steroids and gametes both. Castration removes the gonads, and therefore removes the ability to produce gametes and steroids.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Lisa, I just looked at the "pups just in time for christmas" thread and saw the pic of tempest ....she is ripped so obviously like you said.....It depends on how you work them. Why did you spay her so young though if she is a working dog? I know I feel the same as you about the s/n topic


keeping a dog in shape like tempest takes a lot of work. genetics help, what you feed helps but in the end, to get a dog like her, you need to put in the time. lisa, or whoever conditions temp is deffinately not lazy about it. they put in time and it shows.

itll take experience imo too.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Genetics, feeding and excercise play a bigger roll than the spay at this age. I will post up some pics of my current foster dog to show you what I mean. I pulled her out of the shelter at their request, since her time was up. She came in there stray and overweight (already spayed) They called her Marsha (short for Marshmallow, she was roly poly) and she would be a poster child at that point for "I spayed my dog and she got fat" Now..... that bitch is ripped, yet she gets far less excercise than I would like to give her. She just eats a proper amount of food for her size and is, genetically, a dog who muscles up easily. (She also fattens up easily if you feed her too much obviously)


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

I have seen dogs from my line who were fixed young. I do not tell people if they should "fix" their dog or not, however a fixed male (especially when young) does not develop like like he should have. At a few years of age, compared to their siblings, they look off. They are still great dogs. Some of the fixed females I have seen who had it done late in life, changed in a bad way. Overly aggressive towards dogs (especially an intact female), life long internal issues with holding their poop, etc..

An old saying is "You fix your female, but you break a male".
I grew up with over weight happy, fixed mutts. I am not 100% against fixing a dog. And yes, a fixed dog can still be kept in good shape.

As far as your female goes (along with exercise , etc.) keep the red meat in the diet. Humans trying to get rock hard who only eat fish and chicken benefit from red meat. If you had a choice between Salmon Taste of the Wild, vs. Bison, I would go Bison 4 out of 5 times.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Kingsgurl said:


> Genetics, feeding and excercise play a bigger roll than the spay at this age. I will post up some pics of my current foster dog to show you what I mean. I pulled her out of the shelter at their request, since her time was up. She came in there stray and overweight (already spayed) They called her Marsha (short for Marshmallow, she was roly poly) and she would be a poster child at that point for "I spayed my dog and she got fat" Now..... that bitch is ripped, yet she gets far less excercise than I would like to give her. She just eats a proper amount of food for her size and is, genetically, a dog who muscles up easily. (She also fattens up easily if you feed her too much obviously)


Funny, everyone keeps saying "genetics" plays such a huge roll but if you saw her parents you would think Bella is some genetic mutation LOL! I know genetics plays a part  Her parents are kept on the heavy side with little muscle tone and these people live out in the woods of NH with land for days but there dogs aren't worked like Bella so who knows how they could look if they were my dogs. I also have seen 4 of her brothers and they look like cows compared to her. I live in the city and I'm a workout nut going 5 miles a day at least 5 days a week so Bella comes with me. I not only workout for myself I do it for her to and take pride in owning my dog and keeping her fit. I would love to see pics of the before and afters of your little marshmallow pit 



NorCalTim said:


> I have seen dogs from my line who were fixed young. I do not tell people if they should "fix" their dog or not, however a fixed male (especially when young) does not develop like like he should have. At a few years of age, compared to their siblings, they look off. They are still great dogs. Some of the fixed females I have seen who had it done late in life, changed in a bad way. Overly aggressive towards dogs (especially an intact female), life long internal issues with holding their poop, etc..
> 
> An old saying is "You fix your female, but you break a male".
> I grew up with over weight happy, fixed mutts. I am not 100% against fixing a dog. And yes, a fixed dog can still be kept in good shape.
> ...


I am on the fence about fixing dogs but there are pros and cons to EVERYTHING in life and S/N is one of those things. On one hand I could leave my girl intact and be responsible doing so never letting her breed....but on the otherhand I've seen bitches go through a pyo when I was a vet tech and I wouldn't want my girl to meet the same fate. I have also had friends lose males to testicular cancer that were kept intact there whole lives. The cancer wasn't caught in time so neutering was never an option for them at that point.

I've had this convo with Lisa, (performanceknls) about holding off until she matures before I spay her and doing it later as oppose to sooner in life. I was actually holding off spaying because she had show potential but then her allergies started so that changed. I've done research and read article after article on the pros and cons. I have known plenty of people who have had spayed bitches at 6 months of age and lived for 14 or more years with no issues ever resulting from surgery. Bella is my first female EVER as far as dogs go. I have always owned males both neutered and intact with no issues either way. I have owned many female cats because I have always preferred female cats over males and they were spayed at 5 or 6 months with no issues later in life and lived well into there teens. To be honest.....I'd rather just leave my bitch as is but after being a vet tech and seeing what I've seen including mammory cancers multiple times I would rather be safe than sorry.

As far as what she eats.....Right now she is on a turkey and beef mixture as I home cook for her with added vitamin supplements. She doesn't eat kibble at all and she will eventually be transitioning onto raw once I finish doing my research. We have been battling with allergies and chicken is one of the culprits so we steer clear of that anyways.

Thanks for all the info everyone!


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Chimera Kennels said:


> Testicles...no...but gonads...yes...or at least she used to have them.
> 
> Gonads include testicles in the male and ovaries in the female.
> 
> Both sexes produce steroids in the gonads. The sex of course influences which steroids will be predominant. The gonads produce steroids and gametes both. Castration removes the gonads, and therefore removes the ability to produce gametes and steroids.


Now that I googled what your saying I understand it better. Never heard about gametes before. That was a new word for me. Thanks for the info!


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

ok, kind of crappy pics (ignore the black marks on her face, she loves to lick the Bar B Que)

This is the spayed bitch who was roly poly when I got her. She was like the poster child for 'I spayed my dog and it got fat' I'm sure that's what her previous owners were convinced of.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

hahaha your pup is beautiful, love the BBQ face lmao


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Thank you.
THIS 









is how you end up with THIS


















and a clean Bar B Que.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Lisa, I just looked at the "pups just in time for christmas" thread and saw the pic of tempest ....she is ripped so obviously like you said.....It depends on how you work them. Why did you spay her so young though if she is a working dog? I know I feel the same as you about the s/n topic


Well about 6 years ago I went through a S/N kick and pretty much did my whole house. I had no want to breed at that point I was happy with what I had..... Yeah I kick myself all the time! I would have kept her intact, bred her back to her dad and kept an army of little tempest's lol. I have bred her dad several times trying to get moire dogs like her and I finally did when I bred him to Siren. Anyway.... I have several spayed bitches that are in top shape, some are well bred some are rescues. And they are all in great shape! I do not work them very hard to get them to look in shape only to add extra definition when I need to. A lot has to do with a good diet and just how they are taken care of. Even my old retired spayed bitches look great for being 14-13 years old. Keep doing what your doing she will look fine


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> Well about 6 years ago I went through a S/N kick and pretty much did my whole house. I had no want to breed at that point I was happy with what I had..... Yeah I kick myself all the time! I would have kept her intact, bred her back to her dad and kept an army of little tempest's lol. I have bred her dad several times trying to get moire dogs like her and I finally did when I bred him to Siren. Anyway.... I have several spayed bitches that are in top shape, some are well bred some are rescues. And they are all in great shape! I do not work them very hard to get them to look in shape only to add extra definition when I need to. A lot has to do with a good diet and just how they are taken care of. Even my old retired spayed bitches look great for being 14-13 years old. Keep doing what your doing she will look fine


Thanks Lisa! I will keep working her the way I have been "excercise wise" work anyways  I finally have her on RAW and she is doing awesome on it! This girl has come along way since her yeast, mange, and bacterial infection days lol! She looks like a million bucks thanks to her dedicated owner  Lots of researching and lots of TLC. You would never know this blue dog had skin issues!


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Kingsgurl said:


> ok, kind of crappy pics (ignore the black marks on her face, she loves to lick the Bar B Que)
> 
> This is the spayed bitch who was roly poly when I got her. She was like the poster child for 'I spayed my dog and it got fat' I'm sure that's what her previous owners were convinced of.


Great job with her :thumbsup:! How many pounds did you take off her?


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

She weighed 70 pounds when we pulled her. She's 51 now, as she should be. Cracks me up when people say their fat dog is 'solid', except it's not funny, it's unhealthy


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Thanks Lisa! I will keep working her the way I have been "excercise wise" work anyways  I finally have her on RAW and she is doing awesome on it! This girl has come along way since her yeast, mange, and bacterial infection days lol! She looks like a million bucks thanks to her dedicated owner  Lots of researching and lots of TLC. You would never know this blue dog had skin issues!


I finally had to do raw for tempest for a while then I switched to a grain free and her allergy really cleared up. Funny how a small change can make all the difference!


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