# Why?



## Kyro (Jul 9, 2010)

Why do people say breeding is bad for the pitts?


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Because backyard breeding ruins the breed and it ruins the image of the breed.

Breeding without titles, temperament testing or health testing destroys the image and the future of the breed. 

By the way I am not a fan of your avatar depicting the APBT as a vicious dog.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Kyro said:


> Why do people say breeding is bad for the pitts?


Not all breeding is bad for apbt's.Just the breeding not done by "professionals", who only have the betterment of the breed in their minds.If you are breeding 2 dogs just because they look good or they could make you money,then you're not in it for the right reasons.
Breeding should only be left to the people that pick the top 2 specimans,show them or work them (such as weight pull),do good at showing them,health test them,etc...
Enough apbt's die everyday in shelters theat no more needs to be added.Enough stupid people are breeding for the wrong reasons and making a bad name for this breed,that no more needs to be done.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

thanks for the avatar change =)


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

People say it's bad because too many people are doing it, which leads the dogs to end up in shelters and put to sleep. Go to your local shelter and see how many 'pitbulls' are there, then ask that question again. 

Also, can you give more context as to why/how this question came about? Because the response of being papered is not always 'enough' to make breeding o.k. 

For example, a non-papered dog passes health, hip (Penn, etc.), and temperament tests (CGC) so does that make the dog qualify to be bred? I excluded the titles, because there are more pet owners than competition owners.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

bumping this up b/c Kyro has posted the same exact thread two more times b/c he can't find this one. 

*Kyro, I hope this helps you.


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## brandileigh080 (Mar 9, 2010)

NesOne said:


> People say it's bad because too many people are doing it, which leads the dogs to end up in shelters and put to sleep. Go to your local shelter and see how many 'pitbulls' are there, then ask that question again.
> 
> Also, can you give more context as to why/how this question came about? Because the response of being papered is not always 'enough' to make breeding o.k.
> 
> For example, a non-papered dog passes health, hip (Penn, etc.), and temperament tests (CGC) so does that make the dog qualify to be bred? I excluded the titles, because there are more pet owners than competition owners.


:goodpost:


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

It isn't spelled "Pitt" it is Pit... sorry it's a pet peeve of mine... also, it is an American Pit Bull Terrier, not a Pit Bull.


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## gh32 (Dec 22, 2007)

Kyro said:


> Why do people say breeding is bad for the pitts?


Breeding isn't bad for the APBT or any other breed for that matter,since without breeding comes extinction.But the key word is "responsible breeding" not just breeding for the sake of having a litter of pups.People that breed for color,head size or any other reason than breeding a REAL APBT with all the right traits are the people that are screwing things up for the breed.I don't care if someone breeds,as long as what they are breeding are quality dogs.Breeding for any other reason isn't doing right by the breed.Same for other breeds and people breeding for the wrong reasons,but especially so for the APBT because it was such a performance bred dog and people are just trying to destroy such a great breed.Much the same as taking a Porsche,Ferrari or Shelby Cobra and putting a hybrid engine in it.It should literally make people sick.This is a very special breed and should be treated as such and the people who haven't got the stomach for the APBT just needs to get another breed instead of trying to ruin this one,same for the people trying to line their pockets by breeding out of standard dogs to sell a canine freak show to the public.You can't have dogs without breeding but you can't have great dogs without knowing what you're doing either.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

gh32 said:


> Breeding isn't bad for the APBT or any other breed for that matter,since without breeding comes extinction.But the key word is "responsible breeding" not just breeding for the sake of having a litter of pups.People that breed for color,head size or any other reason than breeding a REAL APBT with all the right traits are the people that are screwing things up for the breed.I don't care if someone breeds,as long as what they are breeding are quality dogs.Breeding for any other reason isn't doing right by the breed.Same for other breeds and people breeding for the wrong reasons,but especially so for the APBT because it was such a performance bred dog and people are just trying to destroy such a great breed.Much the same as taking a Porsche,Ferrari or Shelby Cobra and putting a hybrid engine in it.It should literally make people sick.This is a very special breed and should be treated as such and the people who haven't got the stomach for the APBT just needs to get another breed instead of trying to ruin this one,same for the people trying to line their pockets by breeding out of standard dogs to sell a canine freak show to the public.You can't have dogs without breeding but you can't have great dogs without knowing what you're doing either.


Not bad, especially the responsibility comment This is a special breed capable of many achievements, not one-dimensional as some would like to believe


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## BmoreTrue (Jun 19, 2009)

gh32 said:


> Breeding isn't bad for the APBT or any other breed for that matter,since without breeding comes extinction.But the key word is "responsible breeding" not just breeding for the sake of having a litter of pups.People that breed for color,head size or any other reason than breeding a REAL APBT with all the right traits are the people that are screwing things up for the breed.I don't care if someone breeds,as long as what they are breeding are quality dogs.Breeding for any other reason isn't doing right by the breed.Same for other breeds and people breeding for the wrong reasons,but especially so for the APBT because it was such a performance bred dog and people are just trying to destroy such a great breed.Much the same as taking a Porsche,Ferrari or Shelby Cobra and putting a hybrid engine in it.It should literally make people sick.This is a very special breed and should be treated as such and the people who haven't got the stomach for the APBT just needs to get another breed instead of trying to ruin this one,same for the people trying to line their pockets by breeding out of standard dogs to sell a canine freak show to the public.You can't have dogs without breeding but you can't have great dogs without knowing what you're doing either.


sorry a little off topic....the porsche hybrid is pretty ridiculously awesome
Porsche 918 Spyder: The $630K Hybrid | Autopia | Wired.com


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

I hear and agree mostly with what everyone has said, but I've bred my dogs before just because I wanted one of my dogs pups. I have a dog here now that I've owned him, his father, grandfather and great grandfather. The other litter mates were given away free. Gage is out of my son's dog and my daughters dog. I loved the look and pedigree on one and the temperment on the other. The pups turned out great looking and we sold one, and my friend that does dog therapy took one free (he has great aspirations for him) and my daughter kept one and me the last one. 
When I was raising Weimaraners and got out of it, my heart always longed for another through the years. I could never afford another one at the time and so I went online to the rescue sites. They wanted a lot and I understand why but here I was, knew all about them, had them, and was able to give a loving home to one. Yet could not afford the price to buy one. Not and be able to take it to the vet for puppy shots ect. Now here was someone that just wanted a weim, I didn't care if it was show quality, I wasn't going to breed it. I would take a rescue, a full grown dog, maybe even one that had issues, after all there are so many that NEED love. But, was it just a donation? No, it was almost as much as buying a puppy!! And I think there are people out there that just want a dog maybe a certian breed, maybe they've never had one and with getting one they could be hooked for life on that breed. Humane shelters and rescues charge to much even for mutts sometimes, and breeders are way to much. So what is wrong with giving for a free a full blooded dog for a pet?


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

coppermare said:


> Humane shelters and rescues charge to much even for mutts sometimes, and breeders are way to much. So what is wrong with giving for a free a full blooded dog for a pet?


.....because if someone can't afford the rescue fee, how can they afford everything the dog could need, including possible emergency vet care..... because if you hadn't bred that litter, maybe a dog in a shelter would have been saved.... because every dog that you produced that reproduces could end up in one of those overpriced shelters one day.... because if your dog has not proven itself or been health tested, it may be passing on genetic defects... because overpopulation is a problem that is killing this breed & breeding for a pet adds to it.... because the shelters usually charge so much b/c the dog has been spayed/neutered, treated for worms, health evaluated, and given all shots...


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

smokey_joe said:


> .....because if someone can't afford the rescue fee, how can they afford everything the dog could need, including possible emergency vet care..... because if you hadn't bred that litter, maybe a dog in a shelter would have been saved.... because every dog that you produced that reproduces could end up in one of those overpriced shelters one day.... because if your dog has not proven itself or been health tested, it may be passing on genetic defects... because overpopulation is a problem that is killing this breed & breeding for a pet adds to it.... because the shelters usually charge so much b/c the dog has been spayed/neutered, treated for worms, health evaluated, and given all shots...


Great response. Most people don't see and I wish some people who ask the question would go volunteer fora shelter. Most dogs given up were found or given to some one and they are just to much for the person now(especially "pitbulls"). If the dog is not health tested or proven to be a true rep of the breed then breeding that dog is just adding to the long list of apbt that are slowly destroying our breed. By breeding a dog without a purpose you are taking away all that people before you have worked for, in making this breed great.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

smokey_joe said:


> .....because if someone can't afford the rescue fee, how can they afford everything the dog could need, including possible emergency vet care..... because if you hadn't bred that litter, maybe a dog in a shelter would have been saved.... because every dog that you produced that reproduces could end up in one of those overpriced shelters one day.... because if your dog has not proven itself or been health tested, it may be passing on genetic defects... because overpopulation is a problem that is killing this breed & breeding for a pet adds to it.... because the shelters usually charge so much b/c the dog has been spayed/neutered, treated for worms, health evaluated, and given all shots...


Because I didn't want the dog in the shelter, I wanted the dog I bred. The dogs I bred (to get Gage) won't end up in a shelter as two are a part of our family, one that is given to the friend is to be neutered, and the one we sold, well that is the chance every breeder takes. If you looked at life that way then there would be no dogs at all because nobody would breed without some sort of rock solid assurance and that is a dream if you think you can control what other people do. As for passing on genetic defects isn't that a chance you take every time you have a child? Do you still have children? You are not God and even though you can stack the odds, you will never be assured. And if the "bullies" or some of the APBT's are still as AKC wants to deem them "mutts" then they shouldn't have many defects. Since there is so much "outcrossing" going on within this breed. I'm not sure I agree overpopulation is killing this breed. Over population is killing all dogs and especially mutts that are with inconsiderate owners that let them roam free and such. Maybe some of the things that are killing this breed are people that cannot agree on a breed standard and going in three and four different directions on what they want to call an APBT, that would cause over population in itself, maybe what's killing this breed is people that breed this dog to fight and make money, maybe what is killing this breed is people that think this dog is a status symbol and there is a lot of money to be made off puppies. This select group of people are not in it for a pet, or for a pit but because it's the "thing" to do and have, low riders, extreme bullies, dogs with gold teeth, logging chains around their necks and such. How many people on this board have a PET pit and love it unconditionally as opposed to those that have a show quality, or working dog? I think the number is way higher on pet quality dogs right here. The shelters charge so much because they have their own bills, employees, and flooded with mutts. The vets that are worth their weight to be called a doctor should spay and neuter for free IMHO. Affording the rescue fee for me was not the issue. The issue was paying the same price or very close to it for a grown dog that has God knows what kind of issues from his background as someone wants for a pet quality puppy. The puppy I know how it would be raised and what it would be exposed to. "They" want me to adopt their problem dog, ie. health issues, mental issues, and all then they should be way more relaxed on the fees or else I would steer toward the puppy.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

The puppy I know how it would be raised and what it would be exposed to. "They" want me to adopt their problem dog, ie. health issues, mental issues, and all then they should be way more relaxed on the fees or else I would steer toward the puppy.[/QUOTE]

Funny cause those are all the thing that come with the backyard breeder aspect of buying a puppy. and you breeding a whole litter of puppies just to have one sound selfish to me because you can't ever know what is going to happen to the others. i have two dogs one is my show dog Dooney, he is also my pet and my baby boy. The other is the female dog Zoey she may make an amazing Schutzhund dog , good at weight pull, and we'll see how she shows.she is also a pet both stay in my home and sleep in our bed room. I would never breed them just cause I want a pup. Because what kind of life am I giving the other pups if I do that. it is all part of being a responsable APBt owner and advocate.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

One thing about this breed is that so many people have already bred their dog because they " want one of it's pups". Justbecause you think you found the other pups good homes doesn't mean that makes it true... Being a responsible breeder of any breed means you do all health testing and temp testing you screen and rescreen homes and this is long before a litter is even thought about... I was a responsible breeder and when I started looking around at the shelters I realized that the extremely overbred breed I love was going downhill simply because of random breeders and irresponsible owners... I choose to rescue instead... Las Vegas shelters are killing 120 pits or mixes of weekly and LA is killing 200+ daily... So because someone wants a pup of their current dog the rest are suppose to suffer? Do you realize that for every ten pups you produce odds are nine will be killed before they are two?

The ongoing problem with this breed is people who don't understand them.... The worst problem in my eyes is people who don't understand but also own them and the absolute worst problem is people who own them, don't understand them and don't care to learn but rather do what they want anyway...


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> The puppy I know how it would be raised and what it would be exposed to. "They" want me to adopt their problem dog, ie. health issues, mental issues, and all then they should be way more relaxed on the fees or else I would steer toward the puppy.


Funny cause those are all the thing that come with the backyard breeder aspect of buying a puppy. and you breeding a whole litter of puppies just to have one sound selfish to me because you can't ever know what is going to happen to the others. i have two dogs one is my show dog Dooney, he is also my pet and my baby boy. The other is the female dog Zoey she may make an amazing Schutzhund dog , good at weight pull, and we'll see how she shows.she is also a pet both stay in my home and sleep in our bed room. I would never breed them just cause I want a pup. Because what kind of life am I giving the other pups if I do that. it is all part of being a responsable APBt owner and advocate.[/QUOTE]

And so your or any breeder for that matter, breeding a whole litter just for money is not selfish? How is that different? Please read again, I DO KNOW what happened to the other puppies. BUT, just as when any breeder breeds a litter once they are placed with someone you nor a byb or anyone else can control or know what happens to them. You gave up that right when you let them go. It is the same scenario no matter WHO bred them really. Is your dog pulling weight, showing or that is Schutzhund trained any more loved than any other owners whose dog is simply a pet and member of their family? Is that dog any more taken care of? NO....Just because my child doesnt become a lawyer doesnt make my child any less of a person or less loved by me than yours that did. 
I will tell you right now from the short time I've been on this board "some" of the members here are doing more chasing away of people and hurting your breed than helping with these attitudes. Your simply not living in the real world. The "on your high horse" "brow beating" and "preaching" and "jumping to conclusions" "being judgemental" done to advocate your breed would be far more accepted with a grain of sugar than a pinch of salt. You cannot fit everyone into the round hole. Some are square. You start slow, praise, and teach. Geesh wouldn't any sort of trainer know that? I don't mean to be ugly here but it seems like a very narrow minded place here. I'm sure you are doing what you think is best for this breed in your own way. Things cannot be black and white, there are shades of gray. There are always exceptions to rules.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Actually I don't think there are shades of gray when it comes to responsible breeding.... Sorry but this breed cannot risk any shades of gray... But it is also my opinion that if everyone was such down except for the true breeding programs left out there this breed would not be in the danger it is in now... Be it high horse or preaching if these things are not said then we lose our breed period... 

If it takes me being straight forward and honest with people who didn't do their research before getting this breed or got it for the wrong reasons then that's what I will do to help my breed and I am sure there are many more people on this board that will too...


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> One thing about this breed is that so many people have already bred their dog because they " want one of it's pups". Justbecause you think you found the other pups good homes doesn't mean that makes it true... Being a responsible breeder of any breed means you do all health testing and temp testing you screen and rescreen homes and this is long before a litter is even thought about... I was a responsible breeder and when I started looking around at the shelters I realized that the extremely overbred breed I love was going downhill simply because of random breeders and irresponsible owners... I choose to rescue instead... Las Vegas shelters are killing 120 pits or mixes of weekly and LA is killing 200+ daily... So because someone wants a pup of their current dog the rest are suppose to suffer? Do you realize that for every ten pups you produce odds are nine will be killed before they are two?
> 
> The ongoing problem with this breed is people who don't understand them.... The worst problem in my eyes is people who don't understand but also own them and the absolute worst problem is people who own them, don't understand them and don't care to learn but rather do what they want anyway...


Here we go again with no reading comprehension, and tunnel vision.
"Justbecause you think you found the other pups good homes doesn't mean that makes it true... "
I KNOW I found the other pups good homes. Reread: four pups, two are with us, one is with A VERY TRUSTED THERAPY/RESCUE OWNER. As a matter of fact one of the first certified therapy pits in our state. The last pup sold to someone that put up a deposit, and waited for a long time for this female's pup, got pick of the litter, therefore I don't believe the puppy to be in a bad home. AGAIN, it does not matter who bred the litter there is NO GUARANTEE of anything once they do not belong to you. 
How do you think certain lines were kept around if the original breeder didnt 'JUST WANT ONE OF THEIR PUPS"? If that breeder didn't see something, a look, a trait, that he wanted to continue? That aside, maybe, just maybe I loved my dog enough (and this is the case in the fourth generation dog I have now) that I wanted a part of him to always have. Selfish? You may call it that......I call it admiration, love, and family. 
Rescue is great, it takes a special person to do that. I commend you for it. However, it's not what I wanted. And your entitled to your opinion just as I am mine.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

This will be my last comment on this thread as it hits home for me and I cannot guarantee I will play nice...

That being said before we all go gun hoe on the fact that we love our dogs so breed them so we can have another one, no dog is the same so you probably won't get one exactly the same in the first place...

Go to your local kill shelter, apply as a volunteer. Go walk some dogs, feed them, spend time with them, then go with them when it's their time to DIE! Hold their paw when an untrained stick them with a needle a few times to get the right spot... Watch them die with a look in their eyes screaming save me.... Then talkto me about irresponsible owners such as yourself apparently.... Talk to me about backyard breeders... Talk to me then....


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Actually I don't think there are shades of gray when it comes to responsible breeding.... Sorry but this breed cannot risk any shades of gray... But it is also my opinion that if everyone was such down except for the true breeding programs left out there this breed would not be in the danger it is in now... Be it high horse or preaching if these things are not said then we lose our breed period...
> 
> If it takes me being straight forward and honest with people who didn't do their research before getting this breed or got it for the wrong reasons then that's what I will do to help my breed and I am sure there are many more people on this board that will too...


What is going to cause you to lose your breed is your seperation of ideals. Until you can come together as a group (which by the post I read here, good gamebred/bad bullies/amstaffs/staffypitties/ambullies and the like) and come up with a stable breed standard or two seperate breeds or SOMETHING AKC will accept as a pit then YES, your breed is going to be lost. You have to many people breeding two many different standards. THAT IS THE breeding you should be worried about. Did the byb cause that? Not entirely. Unless of course your going to lump Dave into that group? United we stand, divided we fall, it's a fact, history! 
If your comment is directed toward me as far as research on the breed before I got one then you'd be wrong. Besides owning five or six for the past five or so years, I have researched them as I do anything I take an interest in. NO, they were never my breed of choice and NO I didn't go out looking for one of these dogs. My son (whom can recite you history and bloodlines forever) raised them and loved them. Because I have an extensive history in horse showing, conformation, training, bloodlines and breeding and history with GS and Weimaraners, I do feel I have the ability to own this breed and know what to look for in breeding and the responsibilites of it ect. I kept this puppy because I know the bloodlines, know the temperment of the sire and damn and because I was attracted to this particular pup from the minute he was born.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

coppermare said:


> maybe, just maybe I loved my dog enough (and this is the case in the fourth generation dog I have now) that I wanted a part of him to always have. Selfish? You may call it that......I call it admiration, love, and family.
> Rescue is great, it takes a special person to do that. I commend you for it. However, it's not what I wanted. And your entitled to your opinion just as I am mine.


Thinking like this is why these dogs (and dogs in general) are in trouble. Too many people think they know better than real breeders and just have a litter because they wanted to have a part of their old dog forever. I love both my dogs but when it's their time then that's it. I'll get a new dog to start over with.

It would be presumptuous of me to assume that because I've learned a lot about these dogs that I know enough about genetics or health testing to breed my own litters. I know enough to know I should leave it to the professionals who have a specific programme in place and who cull or s/n the dogs that don't measure up.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

coppermare said:


> What is going to cause you to lose your breed is your seperation of ideals. Until you can come together as a group (which by the post I read here, good gamebred/bad bullies/amstaffs/staffypitties/ambullies and the like) and come up with a stable breed standard or two seperate breeds or SOMETHING AKC will accept as a pit then YES, your breed is going to be lost.


WOW.

Our breeds have standards.

The breed is being lost by uneducated bybing.

The AKC for one doesn't register APBTS they register AmStaffs.

UKC and ADBA register APBTS.

ABKC registers American Bullies.

ALL THESE REGISTRIES HAVE STANDARDS.
These are all separate breeds of dog
http://www.gopitbull.com/goldmine/17493-breed-clarification.html

There are to many people breeding unpapered dogs and dogs that are not to the standard.

That is what is causing a problem. Responsible breeding is hard to come by.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> This will be my last comment on this thread as it hits home for me and I cannot guarantee I will play nice...
> 
> That being said before we all go gun hoe on the fact that we love our dogs so breed them so we can have another one, no dog is the same so you probably won't get one exactly the same in the first place...
> 
> Go to your local kill shelter, apply as a volunteer. Go walk some dogs, feed them, spend time with them, then go with them when it's their time to DIE! Hold their paw when an untrained stick them with a needle a few times to get the right spot... Watch them die with a look in their eyes screaming save me.... Then talkto me about irresponsible owners such as yourself apparently.... Talk to me about backyard breeders... Talk to me then....


Look, I can tell this is close to your heart. I can feel your pain. However, you are being very closed minded and trying to judge me and fit me into a catagory when you do not know me. I am fifty years old, I've owned dogs and livestock my entire life. Do you think I've not seen my share of cruelty and suffering? Do you think I can't relate some horror stories to you of what I've seen? Do you REALLY wanna compare some stories and scars? Because if that's what it takes, I'm game (no pun intended) and yes I can talk to you. Now, you've judged me as an irresponsible owner without knowing me. THIS is why your running people away from here. 
And yes, I did get exactly the same one with the fourth generation dog. Not the same in looks, no, but the EXACT same traits and intelligence. If you REALLY do study Schutzhund then you should know the German's believed intelligence begat intelligence. Only Schutzhund titled dogs could be bred with Schutzhund titled dogs. The G.S I owned had over 80 titles in his background. And if you think I didn't get that same intelligence you think wrong. That particular line of dogs I bred I could pick one of them out whenever I met another one simply by the eyes. They ALL HAD THE SAME LOOK IN THEIR EYES. I'd ask the owner what the bloodline was and it was ALWAYS THAT BLOODLINE. Know what that's from? Not six generations of UKC but hundreds of generations of AKC. Not because I signed a piece of paper saying my dog looked like a breed (UKC). 
This has nothing to do with shelters and rescues and animals suffering. Although that is where you'd seem to like it to go. Don't try to place blame on me for what others do. I can only control me and what I do just as you can only control you. But, I do not appreciate your judgemental attitude.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

coppermare said:


> Not six generations of UKC but hundreds of generations of AKC. Not because I signed a piece of paper saying my dog looked like a breed (UKC).


I don't think you understand what the AKC and UKC are.

The AKC doesn't register any different than the UKC other than breeds of dog they register.

UKC linage goes back just as far. Actually they go back further as the UKC was registering APBTS long before the AKC turned them into AmStaffs.

You can not sign a paper saying your dog looks like a certain breed and get UKC papers.

However in the end All registries are nothing more than a businesses that files and records linage. A breeder sends in papers saying they bred their 2 dogs registered with that kennel club. That kennel club records it and sends registration papers for that litter. ALL the clubs are the same. Nothing more than record keepers for breeders. They hold events in that clubs name all the same and record the breeders signature on documents all the same.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

The breed is being lost by uneducated bybing.

This has happened already and I don't believe it will be undone. Spilled Milk so to speak. You now have people that have combined all this together and will continue to do because it's what they think as a pit.




There are to many people breeding unpapered dogs and dogs that are not to the standard.

True, very true. Then again, seems they all have different "standards"



"The AKC for one doesn't register APBTS they register AmStaffs.

UKC and ADBA register APBTS. 

ABKC registers American Bullies."

EXACTLY MY POINT!
Why doesnt AKC register them? If a game dog is so different than a bully or Amstaff or whatever?
So now you have AKC,UKC,ADBA,APBTS,ABKC, when and where does it end?
In my mind then and in AKC's mind there is nothing but Amstaff, or American Staffordshire Terrier or American Bull Terrier, and until "Pit" people come together and seperate this there will never be an AKC registered American Pit Bull Terrier. If there is going to be an APBT, and an American Bully then they need to be seperated, given strict standards and then adhered to. This is where the responsibility should come into play.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

american_pit13 said:


> I don't think you understand what the AKC and UKC are.
> 
> The AKC doesn't register any different than the UKC other than breeds of dog they register.
> 
> ...


AKC was founded before UKC. Back in the 90's UKC had nothing but a piece of paper that if two or three (can't remember) people signed saying a breed of dog looked like that particular breed then they registered it. AKC is very strict, VERY, believe me I've dealth with them enough.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

The AKC does not register the APBT because they wanted nothing to do with the fighting history of the breed. They wanted a foo foo show dogs... So they registered original APBTS as Amstaffs, because they where tired of loosing out on the money of registering a such a popular breed. Over the years they are 2 SEPARATE breeds. Same blood different breeds. 


There will never be an AKC American Pit Bull Terrier because they are snobs that want nothing to do with what created this breed. It has nothing to do with the people. 

You are talking about separating breeds and giving them standards when this has been done as for UKC and AKC it has been done for over 100 years. 


The ABKC is new but the American Bully is a new breed. A breed separate from the APBT and AmStaff.

The UKC registers the Central Asian Ovcharka the AKC does not. Does the AKC need to register that breed? No. 

There are other breeds that the AKC registers that the UKC does not. Not all registries register all breeds of dog.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

coppermare said:


> AKC was founded before UKC. Back in the 90's UKC had nothing but a piece of paper that if two or three (can't remember) people signed saying a breed of dog looked like that particular breed then they registered it. AKC is very strict, VERY, believe me I've dealth with them enough.


Go check your history. They may have been founded first, but it did not register the APBT till many years after the UKC was founded to register the APBT.

How do you think the first AKC dogs where registered? Same way. I know how the AKC works. They are not any stricter about registration. The only difference in UKC/AKC registration is your registration certificate has an option for limited registration.

Oh yeah the AKC wasn't founded in the 90's it was founded in 1884, UKC was founded in 1896 soly registering the APBT. Then in 1936 when the AKC was tired of loosing out on MONEY they started registering APBTS as AMStaffs.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

"Over the years they are 2 SEPARATE breeds. Same blood different breeds."
They may have the same blood but they look nothing alike.

"You are talking about separating breeds and giving them standards when this has been done as for UKC and AKC it has been done for over 100 years."
It has not been done with AKC, seems instead there are now just two different registeries registering two different breeds of dogs, one for looks, one for competition.

"Go check your history. They may have been founded first, but it did not register the APBT till many years after the UKC was founded to register the APBT."
They still don't register APBT's do they? They register Amstaffs which look very different to me. UKC registers APBT's.

"The only difference in UKC/AKC registration is you registration certificate has an option for limited registration."
No, the difference is In reality, AKC papers mean that the dog is certified pure bred and can be registered in any country that has a registry recognized by the FCI. If you have your dog registered with any other registry in the USA (United SchH Clubs of America, Continental Kennel Club, United Kennel Club, APRI, etc) then as far as the FCI and rest of the world is concerned, you have a mutt. No AKC papers = not purebred to FCI Plain & simple and no matter how much people may argue, it's not going to change.
Another difference is that in the AKC, the national breed clubs write their own standards, while the UKC is privately owned and controls the standards for the breeds it registers--and can change those standards without the consent of the breeders. Both approaches can have their advantages and disadvantages.
The AKC is the only FCI recognized organization in the United States so i doubt if UKC papers actually mean anything? I do not believe that UKC papers are valued any where else in the World


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

Nice debate, enjoyed it....except for being judged. Thank you american pit for knowing how to have a debate and not an argument. I'm heading to bed now, got to work early...nite


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Hmm so if UKC registration means nothing then why did the AKC let people dual register APBTS as Amstaffs until they closed the stud books? Why are there dual UKC/AKC dogs titling in the AKC ring?

I think you have a very large misconception of the AKC. The AKC would not have AmStaffs unless they where registering our UKC mutts 

Oh and APBTS can be registered Internationally, again you are just choosing an international club of your choice


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

I didn't read all of the posts.I'm sure if I had,this was probably covered.But look,I'm gonna say this.
If it wasn't for this site,I would probably be a byb.I thought my dog (Pretty Girl) was the best dog in the world.I wanted so much to carry on her legacy and have another one of her.
I think her having her accidental litter and me coming on here for advice was the best thing that could have happened to us.It made me realize that there was more to this breed then just us.Yeah I thought she was the best dog.But can you imagine if everybody that thought they had the best dog and wanted one of their pups,bred them?!There would be pups everywhere!Not everybody has homes with family members lined up.
All I can say is this.Go to some of the bully forums.Yeah I know I'm gonna catch crap for this.But if you go and see exactly how many people are breeding and selling these pups,then you won't want any part of it.I used to belong to one of them before I came here.It's quite sickening.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

coppermare said:


> The breed is being lost by uneducated bybing.
> 
> This has happened already and I don't believe it will be undone. Spilled Milk so to speak. You now have people that have combined all this together and will continue to do because it's what they think as a pit.
> 
> ...


There are to many people breeding unpapered dogs and dogs that are not to the standard.

True, very true. Then again, seems they all have different "standards"

You can call a pigeon a duck, but it is still a pigeon. Do you think anyone catching foxes wants a "CH" Fox Terrier from the show ring - Not! They look for the type of Fox Terrier that they prefer.

An APBT is, and will always be one thing (bred for the hidden trait of gameness - now found by the instinct of the breeder (not by testing) - not the best way, but better than nothing). If you want a show dog, you best learn the ropes. Because of the American Bully, if you buy an APBT and get a 100 Blue Hippo (and did not want that type of a dog) - at this stage of the game, IT IS YOUR FAULT.

As for the breeding. It may be a good idea to "fix' (I hate that word) what you give out. The APBT has always been used to better other breeds (I do not agree with it - makes for a possible unstable temperament).

This is America! Land of the (cough) free!
I love my country (she can be a scorned .....)

Wind, rain, fire, breeding animals, all part of being human.
Good thing the dogs in the pet stores come from loving environments (ya right).

If someone does not pay a grand for a dog, they tend not to guard it with there life. If they pay a pretty penny it helps, but obviously does not guarantee anything (screening buyers is a must).

If one breeds the APBT, it should be done to better the breed, or the old time breeders will be rolling in there graves and the future generations will be missing out. For me it has been one of the best things I have every done in my entire life. Breeding is honoring all of my past relatives as well as the past relatives of my dogs.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

coppermare said:


> I hear and agree mostly with what everyone has said, but I've bred my dogs before just because I wanted one of my dogs pups. I have a dog here now that I've owned him, his father, grandfather and great grandfather. The other litter mates were given away free. Gage is out of my son's dog and my daughters dog. I loved the look and pedigree on one and the temperment on the other. The pups turned out great looking and we sold one, and my friend that does dog therapy took one free (he has great aspirations for him) and my daughter kept one and me the last one.
> When I was raising Weimaraners and got out of it, my heart always longed for another through the years. I could never afford another one at the time and so I went online to the rescue sites. They wanted a lot and I understand why but here I was, knew all about them, had them, and was able to give a loving home to one. Yet could not afford the price to buy one. Not and be able to take it to the vet for puppy shots ect. Now here was someone that just wanted a weim, I didn't care if it was show quality, I wasn't going to breed it. I would take a rescue, a full grown dog, maybe even one that had issues, after all there are so many that NEED love. But, was it just a donation? No, it was almost as much as buying a puppy!! And I think there are people out there that just want a dog maybe a certian breed, maybe they've never had one and with getting one they could be hooked for life on that breed. Humane shelters and rescues charge to much even for mutts sometimes, and breeders are way to much. So what is wrong with giving for a free a full blooded dog for a pet?


Lets see some pics of the 3 generation family tree!


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

coppermare said:


> _*What is going to cause you to lose your breed is your seperation of ideals. Until you can come together as a group (which by the post I read here, good gamebred/bad bullies/amstaffs/staffypitties/ambullies and the like) and come up with a stable breed standard or two seperate breeds or SOMETHING AKC will accept as a pit then YES, your breed is going to be lost.*_ You have to many people breeding two many different standards. THAT IS THE breeding you should be worried about. Did the byb cause that? Not entirely. Unless of course your going to lump Dave into that group? If your comment is directed toward me as far as research on the breed before I got one then you'd be wrong. Besides owning five or six for the past five or so years, I have researched them as I do anything I take an interest in. NO, they were never my breed of choice and NO I didn't go out looking for one of these dogs. *Because I have an extensive history in horse showing, conformation, training, bloodlines and breeding and history with GS and Weimaraners, I do feel I have the ability to own this breed and know what to look for in breeding and the responsibilites of it ect. * I kept this puppy because I know the bloodlines, know the temperment of the sire and damn and because I was attracted to this particular pup from the minute he was born.


Actuallyy AKC chose not to register APBT because of their backround in fighting and the snobs that they are did not want to tarnish their reputation until they realized that this was one of the most popular breeds out there and how much money they were losing by not registering them. Then and only then did they say "ok we will register them as Amstaffs" which by the way a majority of APBT owners said "hell no" and just did not register with them because they are proud of where their dogs come from as I am.

No having an extensive history on GS and Weims DOES NOT make you anything close to an expert on MY breed of CHOICE. And if this is not your breed of choice then, in my opinion, you shouldnt have one period. I have and always will say "A APBT OWNER KNOWS THAT THEY ARE MEANT TO BE AN APBT OWNER AND ALL OTHERS SHOULD JUST WALK AWAY" and I mean every word of it. I would say the same to any Am Bulldog owner or Rottie owner or Cane Corso owner. This breed (AS ANY OTHER) stands ALONE!!



coppermare said:


> _*Look, I can tell this is close to your heart. I can feel your pain. However, you are being very closed minded and trying to judge me and fit me into a catagory when you do not know me. *_ I am fifty years old, I've owned dogs and livestock my entire life._* Do you think I've not seen my share of cruelty and suffering? Do you think I can't relate some horror stories to you of what I've seen? Do you REALLY wanna compare some stories and scars? Because if that's what it takes, I'm game (no pun intended) and yes I can talk to you.*_ Now, you've judged me as an irresponsible owner without knowing me. _*THIS is why your running people away from here. *_
> _*This has nothing to do with shelters and rescues and animals suffering. *_Although that is where you'd seem to like it to go. Don't try to place blame on me for what others do. I can only control me and what I do just as you can only control you. But, _*I do not appreciate your judgemental attitude*_.


ANYONE who states they think because they have been involved with another breed as a breeder therefore can breed this breed wrecklessly IS A BYB IMO. 
I will compare stories anyday if all you have is heartbreak from GSD and Weims and horses... I ahve dealt with this breed and its heartbreaks for 29 years so yeah I probably got a few stories on ya, Sorry.
I am not trying to run anyone off from here, BUT if someone comes on here asking for advice on breeding yet they OBVIOUSLY do not know enough about breeding in general much less this breed specifically then I am willing to tell them straight up (nicely) that what they are thinking about doing or already have done is wrong and they should re-think and learn something first.
Randomly breeding dogs just because you like your current dog without any proper testing AND titles IS IN FACT A DIRECT PROBLEM FOR SHELTERS AND THE MILLIONS OF ANIMALS PUT TO THEIR DEATH EACH YEAR. Why? You Ask... Because their are hundreds of people who "want of their dog to keep forever"...
Call my "attitude" what you will... Again I will say go spend some time in a few kill shelters before you comment on it though.



coppermare said:


> _*This has happened already and I don't believe it will be undone. Spilled Milk so to speak. You now have people that have combined all this together and will continue to do because it's what they think as a pit.*_
> 
> "The AKC for one doesn't register APBTS they register AmStaffs.
> 
> ...


No its not completely gone... tarnished yes but saveable if we can get through to people in the same mindset as you... 
What I do not think you are getting is that we are not the ones who lump 20+ breeds under the name "pit bull"... A Pit Bull is an APBT however with the misconception of the breed through media and uneducated people anything that is short-haired, wide-chested with a large brick like head is a "pit bull"

UKC, AKC and ADBA all have standards and believe me they adhere to them.



coppermare said:


> "Over the years they are 2 SEPARATE breeds. Same blood different breeds."
> _*They may have the same blood but they look nothing alike.*_
> 
> "You are talking about separating breeds and giving them standards when this has been done as for UKC and AKC it has been done for over 100 years."
> ...


EXACTLY because they are two separate breeds.
Ummmm?? I think you are argued yourself on the two separate breed thing.

Amstaffs are different they are a much more game bred breed.

My point with all this is there are very few responsible breeders left in the US and as far as I am concerned there does not need to be anymore. IMO if we were able to stop BYBs and irresponsible owners the stigma around these BREEDS as "pit bulls" would alleviate itself. But unfortunately every Joe Smoe that thinks he has a perfect dog and wants to breed it, WILL.

I dont care who the person is, as far as I am concerned ANYONE ENDANGERING MY BREED FURTHER will get an ear full from me.

Course I am a firm believer in the fact that only certain people in this country deserve to own this breed... I also believe that if you think you know everything about this breed and cannot keep your mind open to other ideas and opinions rather than thinking your are right (which you are not) then you shouldnt own this breed either... JMO though...


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Nice debate! and not to offend anyone but-
To me, Breeders are byb's and thats it! in it for making money or other selfish reasons. Then you have working kennels who occassionally breed for there own stock and maybe sell a few pups to spread the love to some select buyers with the same values. thats a huge difference and for the life of me I dont understand why people think its so needed to breed their dogs in the first place. today we have 6 perfectly good dogs going down just because they are pitbulls that someone bred and didnt turn out the way they expected. I blame ourselves for these dogs sudden end. WE HAVENT EDUCATED ENOUGH YET TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

redog said:


> Nice debate! and not to offend anyone but-
> To me, Breeders are byb's and thats it! in it for making money or other selfish reasons. Then you have working kennels who occassionally breed for there own stock and maybe sell a few pups to spread the love to some select buyers with the same values. thats a huge difference and for the life of me I dont understand why people think its so needed to breed their dogs in the first place. today we have 6 perfectly good dogs going down just because they are pitbulls that someone bred and didnt turn out the way they expected. I blame ourselves for these dogs sudden end. WE HAVENT EDUCATED ENOUGH YET TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


This breed (in its pure form) is an endangered species.
Ever heard of American Pride?


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

redog said:


> Nice debate! and not to offend anyone but-
> To me, Breeders are byb's and thats it! in it for making money or other selfish reasons. Then you have working kennels who occassionally breed for there own stock and maybe sell a few pups to spread the love to some select buyers with the same values. thats a huge difference and for the life of me I dont understand why people think its so needed to breed their dogs in the first place. today we have 6 perfectly good dogs going down just because they are pitbulls that someone bred and didnt turn out the way they expected. I blame ourselves for these dogs sudden end. WE HAVENT EDUCATED ENOUGH YET TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


Lets see the 6 dogs you have that people spent hundreds of years (if not more) to create the American Pit Bull Terrier in its truest form.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

NorCalTim said:


> This breed (in its pure form) is an endangered species.
> Ever heard of American Pride?


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

NorCalTim said:


> Lets see the 6 dogs you have that people spent hundreds of years (if not more) to create the American Pit Bull Terrier in its truest form.


Oh
Now I understand.
You had to kill them.

A great example of why we need good breeders that the general public can buy from. Not mutts with a questionable background. Dogs bred down from the best working and family lines.:rofl:


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

You guys, a little info on dave... he works for a shelter and he meant that he PTS 6 pit bull dogs just in todays work load.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Well Redog, my upmost respect for you!!


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

NorCalTim said:


> Lets see some pics of the 3 generation family tree!


Are you referring to the dog that I kept that I owned his Grandsire or the puppy I have now. The dog that I kept from the three and four generation was German Shepherd. "The one with over 80 Sch titles in the background. I don't have the pedigree as that was obviously years ago but I'm sure you can easily look it up if your interested in that breed. The puppy I have now, the Pit, I can show you his pedigree on his dam's side only right now as that is posted online. The sire's pedigree and all orginal pw is with my son the owner of the dogs. I did not request any from him since he lives two miles from me. And he is the actual breeder and "pit guru" in the family. And I could really care less about my "pancake heads" bloodline.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

The way I've learned it is there was just a bulldog. It was crossed with a terrier. It resulted in the Staffordshire Terrier that was originally called the Bull and Terrier dog and at times Pit Dog or Pit Bullterrier. It is believed that this practice of mixing bulldog's and terriers began in the town of Staffordshire England and became known as the Staffordshire Bull and terrier. They found their way to America in the 1870's. There they became known as the American Bull Terrier and later as the Yankee Terrier. *That is kinda confusing since there is an American Bull Terrier that does not look like an APBT nor a Staffordshire. Can someone explain that to me? *The pitting of dogs against bear or bull tested the gameness, strength and skill of the dog. These early "proto-staffords" provided the ancestral foundation stock for the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the Bull Terrier, the American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier. This common ancestor was known as the "Bull and Terrier". *So all of these breeds come from the same mixture? *
In 1835 bull baiting was officially banned. This forced people especially of the lower classes to find alternatives for their dogs. This resulted in a sport known as ratting where a number of rats were placed in a pit for a specified time with the dog. THIS IS IN FACT WHERE THE "PIT" IN THE AMERICAN Pit Bull TERRIER NAME CAME FROM NOT FROM FIGHTING OTHER DOGS.
However, many pit bull enthusiasts believe the origins of the breed can be traced back to antiquity and the Molossian family of dogs. The Molossian family of dogs bears the name of the people with whom they were most often associated - the Molossi tribe, a group of people who lived in ancient Greece
The Molossians gave rise to another family of dogs known as the Mastiffs. The early Britons employed a variation of the Mastiffs as pugnaces - fighting dogs that could be used in either a guardianship or warfare capacity. *So, does this mean all APBT must have "some" Mastiff in them? Could this be where the blue did orginally come from? Questions, Questions.
*
Once in Rome, the British dogs were crossbred with their Roman counterparts. From the years 50 AD to 410 AD, the breed was widely disseminated throughout the Roman Empire for use as fighting dogs. Along the way THEY MIXED WITH OTHER INDIGENOUS BREEDS THROUGHOUT eUROPE, CREATING A GENETIC MELTING POT FOR THE BULLDOGS THAT ARE THOUGHT TO HAVE BEEN THE IMMEDIATE ANTECEDENTS OF THE APBT. *Still saying a huge mixture?? *

Furthermore, the AKC understandably refused to remotely endorse anything related to dog fighting. * (which I wouldn't call "snobs" , I would have to agree with. *
In response to the AKC's unwillingness to include pit bulls as a bonafide breed, in 1898 an alternative group was formed - the UKC (United Kennel Club). The purpose of the UKC was to certify breeds that were not eligible for certification by the AKC. Not surprisingly, the UKC's charter member was the American Pit Bull Terrier.
Ultimately the AKC did recognize the pit bull in 1936, albeit under the designation of the Staffordshire Terrier, named after the region of England where the crossbreeding of bulldogs and terriers is thought to have begun. Today, the AKC continues to include the American Staffordshire Terrier in its registry, although ironically this has now developed into a breed that is distinct from its American Pit Bull Terrier cousin.

UKC, however, is that they will give full registration to a dog with AKC limited registration. Therefore if a puppy is sold on limited registration because the breeder feels that puppy is lacking a quality necessary to be a potential asset to the breed in terms of breeding, the new owner can take that puppy and register it with the UKC and breed a UKC registered litter or litters. This elminates the power of the limited registration.
*The UKC is not part of the International Canine Organization, Fédération Cynologique Internationale, as most other countries' kennel clubs are. UKC registration alone will not get you into an AKC trial or event. AKC registration papers will get you into any other club with registration in that club.*

Maybe the APBT and the Staffordshire were the same dog that got seperated into "work" dog and "show" dog. You want to preserve the "gameness" but why? Why would you want to perserve a dog's drive to fight, and yet are fighting to keep him from being called that and the very gameness and "fight" background that is ruining him being wanted in the public?


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

NorCalTim said:


> Oh
> Now I understand.
> You had to kill them.
> 
> A great example of why we need good breeders that the general public can buy from. Not mutts with a questionable background. Dogs bred down from the best working and family lines.:rofl:


I wont do it, they go to the vet for that.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Coppermare, this is the second time I've seen you mention the American Bull Terrier. I think you're confused as to my knowledge there is no such dog. I think you might mean the English Bull Terrier or Bull Terrier.










Is this what you're talking about?


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Because I didn't want the dog in the shelter, I wanted the dog I bred.

*Why did you want the dog that you bred? What where you looking for in your "breeding program?"*

The dogs I bred (to get Gage) won't end up in a shelter as two are a part of our family, one that is given to the friend is to be neutered, and the one we sold, well that is the chance every breeder takes.

*This is not a chance that every breeder takes. Responsible breeders sell their dogs with contracts. They take no chances, they take responsibility for what they produce.*

If you looked at life that way then there would be no dogs at all because nobody would breed without some sort of rock solid assurance and that is a dream if you think you can control what other people do. As for passing on genetic defects isn't that a chance you take every time you have a child? Do you still have children?

*This is where testing your dog in its respected sport, getting all test by the vet, and only breeding from known stock comes in. I do not have children of my own, but I do take care of three children whose mother passed away. Two twins 2 yrs old, and their older brother is three. I am pro-adoption all the way.*

You are not God and even though you can stack the odds, you will never be assured.

*I think it is important that all humans are reminded of this from time to time.*

And if the "bullies" or some of the APBT's are still as AKC wants to deem them "mutts" then they shouldn't have many defects. Since there is so much "outcrossing" going on within this breed.

*I'm unclear as to what exactly you are saying here.*

I'm not sure I agree overpopulation is killing this breed. Over population is killing all dogs and especially mutts that are with inconsiderate owners that let them roam free and such. Maybe some of the things that are killing this breed are people that cannot agree on a breed standard and going in three and four different directions on what they want to call an APBT, that would cause over population in itself, maybe what's killing this breed is people that breed this dog to fight and make money, maybe what is killing this breed is people that think this dog is a status symbol and there is a lot of money to be made off puppies.

*Overpopulation is a problem with more than just this breed. As to the breed standards, they are set. People that breed away from them are part of the problem. The other groups that you mentioned are all back yard breeders, thus suggesting that irresponsible breeding must be part of the problem.*

This select group of people are not in it for a pet, or for a pit but because it's the "thing" to do and have, low riders, extreme bullies, dogs with gold teeth, logging chains around their necks and such.

*You're correct, that select group gets fewer and fewer by the day.*

How many people on this board have a PET pit and love it unconditionally as opposed to those that have a show quality, or working dog? I think the number is way higher on pet quality dogs right here.

*This would be a good poll. You could start a thread with a poll asking this question to.*

The shelters charge so much because they have their own bills, employees, and flooded with mutts.

*Shelters do have their own bills, employees and expenses. They are flooded with more than just mutts. Just do a google search for pure breeds in shelters.*

The vets that are worth their weight to be called a doctor should spay and neuter for free IMHO.

*Why should they offer their time, equipment, supplies, knowledge, and skills for free?*

Affording the rescue fee for me was not the issue. The issue was paying the same price or very close to it for a grown dog that has God knows what kind of issues from his background as someone wants for a pet quality puppy. The puppy I know how it would be raised and what it would be exposed to. "They" want me to adopt their problem dog, ie. health issues, mental issues, and all then they should be way more relaxed on the fees or else I would steer toward the puppy.

*The dog with health and mental issues was put to sleep before they had to waste one drop of their diminishing food supply. The dogs that are there, waiting to be adopted have been battered with tests. The ones that came from questionable backgrounds and are still good dogs are the proven dogs. Your puppy is the crapshoot. Knowing how it was raised is only half of the battle. Genetics play a huge role in how the dog will turn out. You have no idea what type of personality that dog will have until it is at least 1 yr. old. So no, they don't want you to adopt their problem dog. They don't want to take your problem puppy in in 1-2 yrs just to have to put it to sleep.
*


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

smokey_joe said:


> *The dog with health and mental issues was put to sleep before they had to waste one drop of their diminishing food supply. The dogs that are there, waiting to be adopted have been battered with tests. The ones that came from questionable backgrounds and are still good dogs are the proven dogs. Your puppy is the crapshoot. Knowing how it was raised is only half of the battle. Genetics play a huge role in how the dog will turn out. You have no idea what type of personality that dog will have until it is at least 1 yr. old. So no, they don't want you to adopt their problem dog. They don't want to take your problem puppy in in 1-2 yrs just to have to put it to sleep.
> *


:clap: Thank you Betty! exactly perfectly explained


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I just want to say I love this thread. Not because I want to argue but because so many opinions lead to questions.  Questions lead to answers and learning. My question to you coppermare is are your dogs registered and if so through what registry. I love the APBT and I love my dogs I was asked the question that because I work my dogs in what ever field I choose does that mean I love him more than a pet? I am going to answer and I hope you relies that this is JMO. Yes I do love my dogs more . Why because I give him purpose and structure in his Life. Dogs crave structure, and need it to be truly happy. There for i am doing more for my dogs than the person who leaves them locked up in the house, and gets up set because they chewed a pillow. APBT breed to work , to be happy they must do so, to love them IS to work them. IMO


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> Coppermare, this is the second time I've seen you mention the American Bull Terrier. I think you're confused as to my knowledge there is no such dog. I think you might mean the English Bull Terrier or Bull Terrier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, bull terrier, my mistake not an american bull terrier. That is the one I was thinking about.
And correction on the the registry that will register off two or more signing a paper saying the dog looks like a breed. It was CKC that did that not UKC.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

smokey_joe said:


> Because I didn't want the dog in the shelter, I wanted the dog I bred.
> 
> *Why did you want the dog that you bred? What where you looking for in your "breeding program?"*
> 
> ...


I adopted a Cocker from the Humane Shelter in Florida, called PAWS. Yeah he was battered with test. Passed them. He was a flippin frootloop!! And I don't mean sorta, he had a screw loose big time!! I'm so blessed that it was me that took him that day (and paid for him) instead of the little girl with her mom that was peering into his cage and wanting him two minutes after I'd paid for him. And I see on rescue sites all the time, describing dogs for rescue that have some issues. Genetics are fifty percent, environment the other fifty percent. Seems I got one year to then to improve that fifty percent due to genetics. I think I'll take those odds!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

coppermare said:


> Yep, bull terrier, my mistake not an american bull terrier. That is the one I was thinking about.
> And correction on the the registry that will register off two or more signing a paper saying the dog looks like a breed. It was CKC that did that not UKC.


Now that makes sense. CKC along with APBR are bunk registries that register any mutt with a photo and a registration fee. There are several others as well.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> I also believe that if you think you know everything about this breed and cannot keep your mind open to other ideas and opinions rather than thinking your are right (which you are not) then you shouldnt own this breed either... JMO though...


Checkmate.
Pot calling the Kettle Black:rofl:


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> I just want to say I love this thread. Not because I want to argue but because so many opinions lead to questions. Questions lead to answers and learning. My question to you coppermare is are your dogs registered and if so through what registry. I love the APBT and I love my dogs I was asked the question that because I work my dogs in what ever field I choose does that mean I love him more than a pet? I am going to answer and I hope you relies that this is JMO. Yes I do love my dogs more . Why because I give him purpose and structure in his Life. Dogs crave structure, and need it to be truly happy. There for i am doing more for my dogs than the person who leaves them locked up in the house, and gets up set because they chewed a pillow. APBT breed to work , to be happy they must do so, to love them IS to work them. IMO


Do you mean my puppy? Because the other dogs are not mine on my profile(not the pits). Yes the pup is. The brindle on the profile is registered Amstaff AKC, the gray female, UKC and APBT, the blue and white male, UKC only, the grey male, UKC AND APBT, the black male, UKC AND APBT. 
Hope that helps you out, I'm not sure why you'd ask though.

The Weim AKC
The mix breed I posted that everyone thought was a wolf? NO LOL


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

coppermare said:


> Are you referring to the dog that I kept that I owned his Grandsire or the puppy I have now. The dog that I kept from the three and four generation was German Shepherd. "The one with over 80 Sch titles in the background. I don't have the pedigree as that was obviously years ago but I'm sure you can easily look it up if your interested in that breed. The puppy I have now, the Pit, I can show you his pedigree on his dam's side only right now as that is posted online. The sire's pedigree and all orginal pw is with my son the owner of the dogs. I did not request any from him since he lives two miles from me. And he is the actual breeder and "pit guru" in the family. And I could really care less about my "pancake heads" bloodline.


I meant the past ones. I love to see multiple generations of the same line. I am able to see 4 generations of my line when I visit friends. It is something else. They all know who is in charge of whom.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Actuallyy AKC chose not to register APBT because of their backround in fighting and the snobs that they are did not want to tarnish their reputation until they realized that this was one of the most popular breeds out there and how much money they were losing by not registering them. Then and only then did they say "ok we will register them as Amstaffs" which by the way a majority of APBT owners said "hell no" and just did not register with them because they are proud of where their dogs come from as I am.
> 
> *Being proud of where your dog comes from is not to be compared with what your dog is known best for. I would be ashamed to be proud of knowing an animal is known for killing it's own breed, kind, or another animal. If I was proud of my breed, I wouldn't care what "name" it got registered under, it's just a name.*
> 
> ...


And you are entitled to those opinions...as I am mine.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

NorCalTim said:


> I meant the past ones. I love to see multiple generations of the same line. I am able to see 4 generations of my line when I visit friends. It is something else. They all know who is in charge of whom.


The "past" dogs I had that I kept the third generation of was German Shepherd. Solid Blacks. I don't have those papers as the third generation is a mutt. He is the grandson of the solid black german shep that was registered. The one in the post I made that everyone ask if he was a wolf hybrid. Where those papers are, omg your talking almost 15 years ago!!. But I've watched the exact same personality, traits, demeanor, and eyes pass down through all three generations and even strong with his being crossed with another breed third generation. It's amazing. I could probably find some online pics of dogs now that are of the same bloodline if you'd like?
If your referring to the pit pup his pedigree can be found on my facebook page I believe, if not I'll have to copy it to photobucket then to here. Are you really worth all that?? LOL joke joke....


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

coppermare said:


> Genetics are fifty percent, environment the other fifty percent.


Agreed. That's why you have to know what you're breeding and know who the dog is going to. And, be willing to take the dog back if the time ever comes.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

smokey_joe said:


> Agreed. That's why you have to know what you're breeding and know who the dog is going to. And, be willing to take the dog back if the time ever comes.


I did just that with my GS. I bought him from a kennel that showed and were also involved in police work dogs. Well I really didn't intend on breeding the male I had until a lady approached me one day and TOLD me my dogs bloodline when she walked up to him. I was blown away! She had my dog's uncle and showed German Shepherds. She'd been trying to get a litter off her male but he couldn't get the job done. She offered me pick of the litter and I agreeded. I visited with her, looked at her papers, dogs, ribbons, pictures and things she had. She'd even written a poem about her beloved black shepherds. She had been into this breed for years and was intent on having a solid black win and not be discriminated against with the black and tans (saddlebacks). I became intrigued and had a well known path to the local library reading everything I could find on them. When the pups were born I tried to get in touch to sit up an appropriate time to look at them. She told me to wait until they were at least six weeks old. Hmmmm...but, I waited. The lady became more distant as time passed. At six weeks I called her back and she told me she didn't get rid of pups until eight weeks and they needed to be veted ext. Ok, but all I want to do is pick mine out. But I waited. I had no idea about any of this. A few weeks later I called her again and was told that "she had taken some of the pups to a show with her and was offered 1500 a pup." Ok, I don't care but by now I'm getting a little pissed. I said, " I wanna come get my puppy". "And like NOW!" I told her I'd be over there in a little while. When I got there I saw only four pups!! And one of those had a little ribbon tied around it's neck. I ask her what was that about and where were the other puppies. She said, "oh that one is spoken for and I forgot to tell you some of the litter died"....I was beyond pissed and picked a black male pup up and said, "just give me my damn blue puppy paper" She handed it to me and when I looked down on the blue paper it WAS HER DOG LISTED AS THE SIRE!!! I turned around and ask her what was up with that ****?? She said, "well I've been trying to get a litter out of this bloodline for years, I've shown my male for years and now he's old and I know that I will never have a litter from him, so I didn't think you'd mind since they are the same blood to use his name" OMG A FRUITLOOP, A REAL NUTJOB AND I HAD TO RUN INTO THIS!!! I didn't know what to do, I just got into my car and left. I steamed all the way home. I kept thinking she's gonna show some of those pups and my dog will not get the credit for them. I called AKC when I got home and without giving names I told them this senario and ask what now? The AKC informed me very quickly that the whole litter would be unregistered! That both parents would be unregistered. And that she would be banned from ever breeding or showing again. I hung up and spent a very long time wondering what to do. If I did that I'd have an unregistered dog and puppy. I didn't think it was fair since I really had no hand in what was done either. I called the lady back and told her what I'd learned from AKC and she got very very worried. She started crying talking about her life and work and crap with this breed. She kept saying, "what will it hurt, the dogs are the same bloodline" And so it goes with so called "reputable breeders" I'm not so sure these "responsible, reputable, show people are any better than what they like to call byb"


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## AussiePit (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm just a little confused between the American staffy and the APBT. . . 
How can they come from the same bloodline and not be the same breed? That makes no sense in my eyes thats like saying these are my parents but they are not my family/relatives??

Also what is the difference between the english staffy and the american staffy apart from the american staffy being larger?

Is there really any such thing as a purebred dog? As to get the APBT other breeds were mixed to make them and no doubt those other breeds were mixed before so really any dog is just a mixture of breeds until they become something desirable and the bloodlines are continued.

Sorry if that last part is hard to undersand it was hard to explain.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

AussiePit said:


> I'm just a little confused between the American staffy and the APBT. . .
> How can they come from the same bloodline and not be the same breed? That makes no sense in my eyes thats like saying these are my parents but they are not my family/relatives??
> 
> Also what is the difference between the english staffy and the american staffy apart from the american staffy being larger?
> ...


Here you go mate.

http://www.gopitbull.com/history/15917-whats-real-american-pit-bull-terrier-history.html

Real quick, all three breeds are related with the SBT being the original "pit bull dog". These were brought to America where they were selectively bred to be larger than their English cousins and eventually became the American Pit Bull Terrier. When people wanted to display their APBTs in the show ring, the AKC wouldn't allow them to. They did not want to be associated with dog fighting.

The dogs were so popular, however, that the AKC allowed them in under a different name. This was the origin of the AST. Most people regard them as being a separate breed because the various bloodlines have been apart for so long and there are now visual differences between ASTs and APBTs.

This is a very quick rundown and you can find a lot more detail on the matter.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> Here you go mate.
> 
> http://www.gopitbull.com/history/15917-whats-real-american-pit-bull-terrier-history.html
> 
> ...


Thank you, that was short and easy. The biggest difference I see in looking at pictures is the AST is shorter legged and in most cases a little wider jowls. The stop may be a little different, more pronounced in the AST and the eyes are different, rounder looking. I seem to prefer the look of the AST but the height and eyes of the APBT.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

coppermare said:


> I hung up and spent a very long time wondering what to do. If I did that I'd have an unregistered dog and puppy. I didn't think it was fair since I really had no hand in what was done either. I called the lady back and told her what I'd learned from AKC and she got very very worried. She started crying talking about her life and work and crap with this breed. She kept saying, "what will it hurt, the dogs are the same bloodline" And so it goes with so called "reputable breeders" I'm not so sure these "responsible, reputable, show people are any better than what they like to call byb"


I'm thinking it would have been her dogs that were unregistered since she was the one at fault not you. I would have reported her anyway. Even if she turned on her water spouts. Not let someone unethical get off the hook. She was not a responsible, reputable, show person or she would not have done that.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

coppermare said:


> The "past" dogs I had that I kept the third generation of was German Shepherd. Solid Blacks. I don't have those papers as the third generation is a mutt. He is the grandson of the solid black german shep that was registered. The one in the post I made that everyone ask if he was a wolf hybrid. Where those papers are, omg your talking almost 15 years ago!!. But I've watched the exact same personality, traits, demeanor, and eyes pass down through all three generations and even strong with his being crossed with another breed third generation. It's amazing. I could probably find some online pics of dogs now that are of the same bloodline if you'd like?
> If your referring to the pit pup his pedigree can be found on my facebook page I believe, if not I'll have to copy it to photobucket then to here. Are you really worth all that?? LOL joke joke....


Its all good bro.
Black German Shepherds do kind of look like wolfs. They are very nice. There is something about being in their presence.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

AussiePit said:


> I'm just a little confused between the American staffy and the APBT. . .
> How can they come from the same bloodline and not be the same breed? That makes no sense in my eyes thats like saying these are my parents but they are not my family/relatives??
> 
> Also what is the difference between the english staffy and the american staffy apart from the american staffy being larger?
> ...


GAME:rofl:

The APBT was not bred for looks.
Some looked like wimpy hounds (that won).
Some weighed 35 lbs., some 65 lbs.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

coppermare said:


> I did just that with my GS. I bought him from a kennel that showed and were also involved in police work dogs. Well I really didn't intend on breeding the male I had until a lady approached me one day and TOLD me my dogs bloodline when she walked up to him. I was blown away! She had my dog's uncle and showed German Shepherds. She'd been trying to get a litter off her male but he couldn't get the job done. She offered me pick of the litter and I agreeded. I visited with her, looked at her papers, dogs, ribbons, pictures and things she had. She'd even written a poem about her beloved black shepherds. She had been into this breed for years and was intent on having a solid black win and not be discriminated against with the black and tans (saddlebacks). I became intrigued and had a well known path to the local library reading everything I could find on them. When the pups were born I tried to get in touch to sit up an appropriate time to look at them. She told me to wait until they were at least six weeks old. Hmmmm...but, I waited. The lady became more distant as time passed. At six weeks I called her back and she told me she didn't get rid of pups until eight weeks and they needed to be veted ext. Ok, but all I want to do is pick mine out. But I waited. I had no idea about any of this. A few weeks later I called her again and was told that "she had taken some of the pups to a show with her and was offered 1500 a pup." Ok, I don't care but by now I'm getting a little pissed. I said, " I wanna come get my puppy". "And like NOW!" I told her I'd be over there in a little while. When I got there I saw only four pups!! And one of those had a little ribbon tied around it's neck. I ask her what was that about and where were the other puppies. She said, "oh that one is spoken for and I forgot to tell you some of the litter died"....I was beyond pissed and picked a black male pup up and said, "just give me my damn blue puppy paper" She handed it to me and when I looked down on the blue paper it WAS HER DOG LISTED AS THE SIRE!!! I turned around and ask her what was up with that ****?? She said, "well I've been trying to get a litter out of this bloodline for years, I've shown my male for years and now he's old and I know that I will never have a litter from him, so I didn't think you'd mind since they are the same blood to use his name" OMG A FRUITLOOP, A REAL NUTJOB AND I HAD TO RUN INTO THIS!!! I didn't know what to do, I just got into my car and left. I steamed all the way home. I kept thinking she's gonna show some of those pups and my dog will not get the credit for them. I called AKC when I got home and without giving names I told them this senario and ask what now? The AKC informed me very quickly that the whole litter would be unregistered! That both parents would be unregistered. And that she would be banned from ever breeding or showing again. I hung up and spent a very long time wondering what to do. If I did that I'd have an unregistered dog and puppy. I didn't think it was fair since I really had no hand in what was done either. I called the lady back and told her what I'd learned from AKC and she got very very worried. She started crying talking about her life and work and crap with this breed. She kept saying, "what will it hurt, the dogs are the same bloodline" And so it goes with so called "reputable breeders" I'm not so sure these "responsible, reputable, show people are any better than what they like to call byb"


You're absolutely right, hung papers are everywhere. That's why you don't sire out your male to some lady you've never met approaching you on the street.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

smokey_joe said:


> You're absolutely right, hung papers are everywhere. That's why you don't sire out your male to some lady you've never met approaching you on the street.


I did get to know her before the breeding and she seemed ok. I'd seen her around some horse events. She had an epaleptic daughter that showed jumpers. Maybe I should have spent more time checking her background and credentials on dogs. Maybe I was just smitten with all those pictures, trophies and stacks of pedigrees she had. Maybe I just thought an animal lover that wrote poems about her dog, and took such time with her daughter couldn't possibly be a bad person. I don't know....but LESSON LEARNED. Just another of the ten thousand reasons I don't trust people anymore.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

coppermare said:


> I did get to know her before the breeding and she seemed ok. I'd seen her around some horse events. She had an epaleptic daughter that showed jumpers. Maybe I should have spent more time checking her background and credentials on dogs. Maybe I was just smitten with all those pictures, trophies and stacks of pedigrees she had. Maybe I just thought an animal lover that wrote poems about her dog, and took such time with her daughter couldn't possibly be a bad person. I don't know....but LESSON LEARNED. Just another of the ten thousand reasons I don't trust people anymore.


Gotcha. I didn't realize you did so much research beforehand.

I agree that the papers don't make the dog.


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