# would you or would you not breed this



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

ok, say you have a dog that has great conformation, has drive for days, is a complete workhorse, and excels in any sport be it wp, sch agility, etc , etc. the only down fall is the dog is shy. not a man biter, or even aggresive, just plain out shy. would you breed the dog or would you not.. please post reasons for why and why not


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## princesstrish617 (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't know a thing about breeding but I would assume that this dog would be okay to breed. I'm under the impression that pups/dogs develop their own personalities and its not always true that the temperament of the parents are going to pass on into the pup.....Also I wouldn't think shyness would be an inherited trait.

thats just what I've heard but im no expert


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## PeanutsMommy (Sep 21, 2008)

how shy? how old?


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

lets say 4 yeras old, does not aproach humans besides its owners and prefers little human interaction.


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## princesstrish617 (Mar 1, 2009)

well putting it like that with the dog only approaching its owner then I would probably not breed because a APBT is supposed to be very people friendly. If the dog was just shy and took a few minutes to warm up to new people thats a differant story


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Depends on the reasoning for it being shy. Is the dog just naturally shy tho every attempt has been made to socialize and work with the dog? If the dog is shy due to environment and raising then yes, but only if it has no aggression or shyness aggression issues. 

If the dog has just always been that way Then normally I would say no however is it is a good worker then yes. 

My thing about shy dogs is they don't usually do as well in sports but if the dogs shyness doesn't effect that and it has no aggression issues and doesn't come from a history of dogs with shyness issues I wouldn't see a problem with it .


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## aussie pitbull (Feb 16, 2008)

my Bundy is the same he's fine with females but barks and backs off from males doesn't get aggresive towards them and a min later is walking around fine then unless they move then he runs away again but i have no reason to breed him he's just my pet,

but back to your question how old was he/she when you got him/her, who you get it off, and how was it treaded i think these things have to come into play to determine if its a inherited trait or something put onto him/her so to speak


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## rosesandthorns (Nov 1, 2008)

I had a female that was shy when I got her at 14 weeks. The people who had her didn't socialize her at all. She was left in a pen and fed in a pig trough. They didn't want to get attached to her so they barely even petted her. She got lots of love when she came home with me and even tho she stayed shy she did good in conformation. I bred her to a very outgoing wp dog and she was a good mom. None of the puppies was shy,one went on to be a conformation champion. So I think it would mostly depend on whether the shyness is due to environmental or heredity. Some shy dogs are fear biters but since the dog is not it might be possible that he would be okay to breed. But it really depends on why he is so shy. He's got everything a you could want but the shyness does bother me. I know that a lot of sites will tell you to stay away from shy puppies because they are usually not of stable temperament. I'm kinda torn on this one but at 4 and still really shy...is he just really laid back or does he back away when he's around other people and not want to be touched?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I have a bitch the same way and I would breed her because I know the dogs in her line (because I bred her and own several of her dogs on her ped) and they do not throw shy does. I think it is more personality than genetic. She is not aggressive but would rather not interact with the general public. She will just ignore them and and stay focused on me.
Now the problem is when (like said in an earlier post) people do not understand the difference between a genetic problem and a socialization problem. Yes Genetically you can pass on bad temperaments. Princesstrish made the statement that gets this breed in trouble. YOU CAN pass this on to offspring that is why you see dogs in the news. People breed crappy dogs and make more crappy dogs.

Back to the OP yes from what you describe I would breed the dog. This is what I would do. Breed the dog and evaluate the litter when they are 12 weeks. Any weird temperaments and I would cull the litter and spay the bitch. IMO


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> Any weird temperaments and I would cull the litter and spay the bitch. IMO


Wow! Its gonna be hard to tell too much at only 12 wks old. I wouldnt "take chances" with a breeding either. You should know what youre producing before its ever produced. If you produce a litter, you should be responsible enough to take care of what you have created. Not just "get rid" of the problem by killing it off.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I probably wouldn't breed the dog because shyness is not a desired trait.

I guess it would depend on what I was breeding for and if the pros outweighed the cons. I mean, if it was back in the day and the dog was game as game got, then ya, I'd breed. If it was a working dog for the farm and the dog worked from sun up to sun down, then ya, I'd breed. If I was breeding for sports, then no. I really don't know how great a shy dog would be in sports.

So, I don't know. It would depend on what I was breeding for and what the dog had to offer. If I thought that the shyness could be overlooked based on other traits, then yes. If the other traits were not strong enough to justify the breeding, then no.

This is all hypothetical, right?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Wow! Its gonna be hard to tell too much at only 12 wks old. I wouldnt "take chances" with a breeding either. You should know what youre producing before its ever produced. If you produce a litter, you should be responsible enough to take care of what you have created. Not just "get rid" of the problem by killing it off.


Where people like it or not culling is an important part of breeding no matter what animal you breed.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

This is a very good discussion Wayne.

I guess I would breed her. Since she excells at everything she does I think that her shyness would steam from lack of sociallizing when she was a puppy and not a traite that was passed along by her parents. Since she is 4yrs old and doesn't show any fear aggression I would tend to think that the puppies she produced would be good workers.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> Where people like it or not culling is an important part of breeding no matter what animal you breed.


Yes, I know. But you shouldnt kill off an entire litter because of one "bad apple". Culling may have been fine 50 years ago, but not anymore. I hardly consider shyness a trait worth culling. The proper way would be spay/neuter and place in a pet only home. If you were responsible enough to produce it, you should be responsible enough to take care of it. You should NEVER put down healthy dog, unless it was human aggressive.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I am not a breeder but If I were and had an extremely shy pup I would try and work with that pup first .. I have one dog now who was extremely shy when I first got her at about 2 months old .. It took a few months of working with her but she eventually grew out of it. I personally would only cull for medical reasons or severe temperment flaws such as HA. There could be many reasons for a pup being shy ... If the breeder who bred the dog did not properly socialize the pup at a very early age and spend enough time with the puppy hands on before it was placed that could cause some issues. In general I think if you can't break out the shyness in the pup than the dog should be spayed/neutered and placed in a pet bull home not killed that is if your a working kennel breeding working dogs. But I personally would not want a working dog who had any issues with temperment being shy would not work if the dog is supposed to be a working dog. I would also never breed a dog who was not sound in both structure and temperment. Regardless of how many titles the dog had if a breeder knows how to properly select a mate to breed out the undesired trait than I would say yes. But I don't know how that is done or of it's even possible to breed out undesired temperment flaws because I am not a breeder. So I am just throwing it out there.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

my pup got me thinking about it. i absolutly love his drive but his shyness bothers the hell out of me. so far he apraches some people and others he will try and avoid.


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Yes, I know. But you shouldnt kill off an entire litter because of one "bad apple". Culling may have been fine 50 years ago, but not anymore. I hardly consider shyness a trait worth culling. The proper way would be spay/neuter and place in a pet only home. If you were responsible enough to produce it, you should be responsible enough to take care of it. You should NEVER put down healthy dog, unless it was human aggressive.


I feel a slightly shy dog with good work ethics is not a cull, but I wouldnt breed to it unless it showed me somethin extra about itself that its litter mates didnt poses!
As A breeder, I could not in good concious place an inferior dog in a pet home! I also feel 50 years ago the breed as a whole was in much better shape than today! The petbull trade IMO is and allways will be the downfall of this breed! A responsible breeder cleans up there own mess, and will allways be striving to produce superior individuales! culling is the differance between average or greatness, It has always been that way, and is the only way to produce any kind of above par consistancy!
Its easy to tell a breeders knowledge on the breed by what they are feeding! An inferior dog on a breeders yard especially a pregnant one is an indication of knowledge or lack of it!


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## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" (Aug 7, 2008)

As most of you know, we're not breeders over here.

I have family members that bred apbt's for years and ONE of their dogs was exactly like you describe. He was probably the most athletic dog I've ever seen, but he was WAY shy around strange people. He would however fetch a 4x4 block for hours rarely stopping to drink with a mouth full of long, bloody splinters. That said, they didn't try to breed or sell him, they just gave him to my aunt who eventually adopted him out to a farmer because he destroyed her home when he was left alone.

Wouldn't it be difficult to get good money for the pups if the potential buyers wanted to see the parents and one of them was acting funny?


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

I personally would not breed the dog. There are so many other dogs with good temperament. I do like PK9's post, about keeping the litter, and culling, then spaying. I have seen pits that were not shy at all but were a little aloof until their owner accepted the stranger. 
The original post mentioned the dog was very workable, and so could probably title. However, if not the dog does not like to be touched, could the dog really have the nerve to finish a title, such as the CD (stand for exam), or conformation(judge going over dog)? Also, was the puppy raised by the handler, or was the dog second hand?


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

pimpidypimp said:


> I feel a slightly shy dog with good work ethics is not a cull, but I wouldnt breed to it unless it showed me somethin extra about itself that its litter mates didnt poses!


Actually, it wouldnt be a "cur".



> As A breeder, I could not in good concious place an inferior dog in a pet home!


Why not? Just because a dog won't pull, have good confirmation, or is a little shy doesnt mean it wouldnt make a good pet for someone. I dont believe those are good enough reason to put a dog down either. Just do the RESPONSIBLE thing. Get the pup spay/neutered and place in a pet home. The dog can never be bred so no harm done.

What are your reasons for breeding?



> I also feel 50 years ago the breed as a whole was in much better shape than today! The petbull trade IMO is and allways will be the downfall of this breed! A responsible breeder cleans up there own mess, and will allways be striving to produce superior individuales! culling is the differance between average or greatness, It has always been that way, and is the only way to produce any kind of above par consistancy!
> Its easy to tell a breeders knowledge on the breed by what they are feeding! An inferior dog on a breeders yard especially a pregnant one is an indication of knowledge or lack of it!


You call killing dogs "cleaning up your own mess"? Thats just the easy way out. If a dogs been spayed, it cannot be bred. If a dogs been neutered, it cannot be bred. I'm not sure if you realize this or not, by reading your post.

I agree the breed was in a better place 50 years ago. But, ALOT has changed in 50 years.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" said:


> Wouldn't it be difficult to get good money for the pups if the potential buyers wanted to see the parents and one of them was acting funny?


The key to breeding has nothing at all to do with making money.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> The original post mentioned the dog was very workable, and so could probably title. However, if not the dog does not like to be touched, could the dog really have the nerve to finish a title, such as the CD (stand for exam), or conformation(judge going over dog)?


Just because a dog could get a title, still doesnt mean it should be bred. I could take just about any dog, bred anyway, and train it to work to get a title. In order to breed, you first need a proven high-caliber dog that has the "total package".


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## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> Where people like it or not culling is an important part of breeding no matter what animal you breed.


you know as much as i dont like it..you have a point, and a good one, it's the natural law of things, mothers kill their young all the time in the wild b/c they know the young wont make it, dogs do the same..i've seen mothers kill all but 1 pup in a litter before. 
but i do think it would take longer than 12 weeks for a human to tell if the dog was a bad seed or not. we dont have the 'it factor' that animals have.

but i'm not for breeding unless you know your stuff...ya know? i'm not to fimilar with dog breeding, i've always bred larger livestock, so yes, i'm confident in knowing what i do when i do that..and i do it well..i've turned out several GCH in the livestock showing ring, but doggies, i'm fine with them just being my pets!


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## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" (Aug 7, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> The key to breeding has nothing at all to do with making money.


Why are dogs put up for sale then? The way this thread is headed, any dog that's not perfect in the breeder's opinion should be put down. That just doesn't seem right to me.

I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but I'd rather a person breed and sell beautiful dogs in a responsible and humane fashion for profit than weed out the ones they don't like because of some intensely radical belief that only the dogs deemed to be perfect should survive. If you don't like some of your puppies, have them fixed and put them up for adoption.

I can't be the only one that feels that way on this forum. There are a lot of other family pet owners here.


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## princesstrish617 (Mar 1, 2009)

RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" said:


> Why are dogs put up for sale then? The way this thread is headed, any dog that's not perfect in the breeder's opinion should be put down. That just doesn't seem right to me.
> 
> I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but I'd rather a person breed and sell beautiful dogs in a responsible and humane fashion for profit than weed out the ones they don't like because of some intensely radical belief that only the dogs deemed to be perfect should survive. If you don't like some of your puppies, have them fixed and put them up for adoption.
> 
> I can't be the only one that feels that way on this forum. There are a lot of other family pet owners here.


There are tons of familys that would be perfectly happy with a pup that the breeder did not feel was a good enough.

Look how many people go to shelters to adopt pups? They have no idea what the parents were like or even if the dog is mixed with anything.

I personally feel there is no reason ever to put down a puppy unless it is medical and the quality of life is in question. I say spay/nueter and put them up for adoption OR surrender them to a no kill pit rescue in the are so they can spay/nueter and place them in screened homes. Just my opinion.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Well it depends on who your talking to ... Honestly there is a difference between a good working dog with working potential and than a pet bull dog who may lack the drive or temperment and sound structure that a good working kennel would strive to produce in the offspring. If your a working kennel most likely your going to place your pups with people who work there dogs or the breeder will keep most if not the entire litter and use them in the future for working and breeding purposes. I don't believe any dog is born perfect ( no such thing as a perfect specimin) every dog has a flaw of some sort some more than others , nor do I believe that every puppy in a litter will go on to be a champion even if the pups are bred from 2 A+ working dogs. Breeding is an art and you might have to breed over and over before you get the desired results your looking for to perfect your stock. Sometimes you get a few born workers in a litter and you may get a few who will never have the working drive or temperment needed to excel in the show world. That does not mean those pups/dogs can't be placed in loving pet bull homes with people who just want a great family companion and are not concered with breeding and showing . That is where spaying and neutering these pups and finding them loving homes comes into play. I think it's unrealistic for any breeder to think every pup in a litter will/should go on to be a top working dog or producer if it was that easy breeder's wouldn't spend the time and money needed to select and breed and perfect their mistakes along the way. And any good working kennel should never breed for profit EVER!! ... Good working kennels should be breeding to better their lines/stock and the money they make back on placing their pups cover's the time and money put into the breeding itself.

I also wanted to add that any good working kennel who strives to produce top working dogs is not going to breed anything they know is lacking in temperment, drive, structure, and working ability if a breeder cares about hs/her dogs and they have a true purpose to breed they will only strive to produce the best unless your a byb breeding for profit.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" said:


> Why are dogs put up for sale then?


SadieBlues hit the nail on the head. *"And any good working kennel should never breed for profit EVER!! ... Good working kennels should be breeding to better their lines/stock and the money they make back on placing their pups cover's the time and money put into the breeding itself."*

You should never be "making money" off of dogs. If you are, youre overbreeding.



> The way this thread is headed, any dog that's not perfect in the breeder's opinion should be put down. That just doesn't seem right to me.


Youre right, its not right. But unfortantley, its that way some people are.



> I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but I'd rather a person breed and sell beautiful dogs in a responsible and humane fashion for profit than weed out the ones they don't like because of some intensely radical belief that only the dogs deemed to be perfect should survive. If you don't like some of your puppies, have them fixed and put them up for adoption.
> 
> I can't be the only one that feels that way on this forum. There are a lot of other family pet owners here.


I agree with you 100%. As do several others.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> You call killing dogs "cleaning up your own mess"? Thats just the easy way out. If a dogs been spayed, it cannot be bred. If a dogs been neutered, it cannot be bred. I'm not sure if you realize this or not, by reading your post.
> 
> I agree the breed was in a better place 50 years ago. But, ALOT has changed in 50 years.


Are you for real? You would place a dog that had temperament issues in a home instead if culling?? This will be the down fall of our breed!! Ok not to get too nasty so I guess we can agree to disagree.

This is totally OT to the OP but since you are talking about culling it is done heavy by show and game lines all the time.
And yes 50 years ago the breed was better because only the best of the best were kept alive and bred. Today the breed is turning in to the monster the media has painted because of bad breeding practices. To allow a crappy animal to live whether it's HA or fear or whatever gives these dogs a bad name. If you are not willing to cull you should have no business breeding. In all the years I had this breed I have only had to cull 2 dogs. To spay that dog and sell or place them would have been giving someone a loaded gun. That would have been incredibly irresponsible and unethical of me. So hate culling if you want but it makes sure that bad dogs do not enter the general public.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

chic4pits said:


> you know as much as i dont like it..you have a point, and a good one, it's the natural law of things, mothers kill their young all the time in the wild b/c they know the young wont make it, dogs do the same..i've seen mothers kill all but 1 pup in a litter before.
> but i do think it would take longer than 12 weeks for a human to tell if the dog was a bad seed or not. we dont have the 'it factor' that animals have.


Sometimes the mother will kill her young just because she can not properly care for them all. She will get it down to a more managable amount.

I had a friend whos female killed every puppy in every litter she ever had. She didnt weed out just the "bad" ones, but all of them.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I also wanted to add culling 50 years ago was more common in the breed because these dogs were being bred for the( box) these dogs served a different purpose 50 years ago. It is extremely difficult to get more than 1 prize fighter with that gameness trait in a single litter so doggers culled curs out hard because they did not serve a purpose to dogman obviously if the dog could not hold up in the box what use would the dog have to the handler . Today the breed is no longer used for the same purpose in which it was orginally bred for therefore culling dogs because they are not game is no longer relevent. Culling for medical reasons or human aggression is a must .. But culling a dog because it lacks drive or may not be a quality show/working specimin IMO is uncalled for. These dogs aren't always born A + workers but that does not mean they can't make a hell of a family dog to a person looking for a pet to love and call their own.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> Are you for real? You would place a dog that had temperament issues in a home instead if culling?? This will be the down fall of our breed!! Ok not to get too nasty so I guess we can agree to disagree.
> 
> This is totally OT to the OP but since you are talking about culling it is done heavy by show and game lines all the time.
> And yes 50 years ago the breed was better because only the best of the best were kept alive and bred. Today the breed is turning in to the monster the media has painted because of bad breeding practices. To allow a crappy animal to live whether it's HA or fear or whatever gives these dogs a bad name. If you are not willing to cull you should have no business breeding. In all the years I had this breed I have only had to cull 2 dogs. To spay that dog and sell or place them would have been giving someone a loaded gun. That would have been incredibly irresponsible and unethical of me. So hate culling if you want but it makes sure that bad dogs do not enter the general public.


I agree you should cull a dog who is severely unstable in temperment. HA is a number one reason to cull hard. But a puppy who is shy? That may lower it's head or turn away from people not showing HA but just shyness in general is not a reason to cull. You have to work with that puppy if the pup is not posing a threat to humans but is just scared in a submissive sort of way I don't see a reason to cull a pup like that. I have a pup who was shy but not human aggressive she never barked or growled or bit out of fear she would just bow her head down and shake or run and hide when I would go to pick her up or pet her ... She did this for a few months of me getting her she was really scared .. And eventually she stopped. After socializing her more around different people, animals, and enviormnets that shyness was gone. She is no longer the same scared puppy. It took some time but she is no longer showing that type of behavior. I think it really depends on the situation and what your dealing with.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> Are you for real? You would place a dog that had temperament issues in a home instead if culling?? This will be the down fall of our breed!! Ok not to get too nasty so I guess we can agree to disagree.


No, we would never and have never placed a HA dog. I'm talking about low drive or poor confirmation dogs. Its hard to tell anything at only 12 weeks.

The downfall is shabby breeders that would sell anything to anyone. Breeders who dont take proper actions to care for what they produced. Breeders who are into mass production and making money. We would NEVER cull a dog unless there was proper reasoning behind it.



> the breed was better because only the best of the best were kept alive and bred.


Still doesnt make it right. Do you know what spay/neuter is? IT MEANS THE DOG CAN NEVER, AND WILL NEVER BE BRED. We agree about only using the best, but we do it humanely.



> Today the breed is turning in to the monster the media has painted because of bad breeding practices.


Agreed.



> To allow a crappy animal to live whether it's HA or fear or whatever gives these dogs a bad name.


False. I agree on the HA part, but answer this. Should we start killing every person in the world who is a little shy?



> If you are not willing to cull you should have no business breeding.


No, if youre not willing to properly care for what you have produced, you have no business breeding. Do it the humane and proper way. Dont just kill them off because you want to take the easy way out.



> In all the years I had this breed I have only had to cull 2 dogs. To spay that dog and sell or place them would have been giving someone a loaded gun. That would have been incredibly irresponsible and unethical of me. So hate culling if you want but it makes sure that bad dogs do not enter the general public.


If they were HA I agree. If they had low drive or poor confirmation you should be in jail for animal cruelity.

You never answered my question. What reasons are you breeding for?


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

To Rockcreek,
No, just because a dog can earn a title, does not mean it has good temperament, it definately does not. I was just responding to the original poster's " the dog has great working drive and could easily title". I brought up a circumstance where a dog has to be touched. 
Regarding culling, I am a true beleiver in it, for many temperament issues, but not for conformation faults alone. Also, shyness is a big issue. Most dogs, bite out of fear and lack of confidence, rather than a dominance. So yes, fear or shyness in a pit bull can be dangerous.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> To Rockcreek,
> No, just because a dog can earn a title, does not mean it has good temperament, it definately does not. I was just responding to the original poster's " the dog has great working drive and could easily title". I brought up a circumstance where a dog has to be touched.
> Regarding culling, I am a true beleiver in it, for many temperament issues, but not for conformation faults alone. Also, shyness is a big issue. Most dogs, bite out of fear and lack of confidence, rather than a dominance. So yes, fear or shyness in a pit bull can be dangerous.


It can be ... but you have to properly evaluate the dog before you can deem it as a dangerous situation or a TRUE temperment flaw. There are different levels of shyness If you have a grown dog who will bite out of fear that to me is an unstable dog and needs to be put down ASAP. But if you have a puppy who is shy puppies can be worked with there are many different reasons why a puppy may show shyness .. It does not necassarily mean that puppy has a temperment problem. You wouldn't really know anyway until the pup is a bit older and you have been able to evulate the pup and work with the pup before you can make that call. IMO Your going to need a lot more time than 12 weeks to make a sound choice as to whether or not the pup truly possesses a true temperment flaw that would pose a threat later on. JMO


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

A shy APBT is not the correct temperament for a true APBT.

But I never said cull a dog who lacks drive or is conformationally incorrect. So please do not put words in my mouth. For that type of dog I would spay and neuter. I am talking about mentally unsound dogs who displays trouble early on. 

I have a really shy dogs in my kennel that is spayed. I did not breed her she was a rescue I kept so don't think I would not work with a dog that had issues. But as breeder you should be able to identify any potential problems and take care of it.

I breed for working dogs and look for drive and intelligence. But anything I breed is not because I am looking for a better working dog I breed and want to keep true characteristics of this breed. Keeping away from show-lines and sticking more to the gamebred dogs helps ensure this. A great gamebred dog has everything I need in a working dog. I do have a bitch that I am breeding back to some show lines but that is a favor to my sister kennel and I hope to get some nice dogs in that litter. That will be my first breeding into show-lines. 

and statements like this
False. I agree on the HA part, but answer this. Should we start killing every person in the world who is a little shy?

Is really stupid, these are dogs not people! give me a break!


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## marineguy56 (Mar 20, 2009)

I would have to say no. This is a proud breed and should carry itself with confidence. Something like that I would consider a flaw.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

wow this really started to become a good topic!!! sorry i have been away from pc latly, life is nuts. 

just so everyone knows i am not planing on ever breeding my dog.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

We're just talking at little shy here, not downright HA. A shy dog can be worked with. HA is a different story altogether.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I have to agree with Rock Creek Kennels. A life is a life and if you helped bring that life into the world you should be willing ot take care of that life. I really don't see how you can tell at 12 weeks that a pup is going to be HA because it is shy right now and I gathered from the posts that the two culled pups were culled for this type of flaw. 

Yes this is proud breed but not everything goes according to plan when you have pups. One could become shy mearly because the others are more outgoing so they get attention and the other one does not. Maybe something bad happened to the one pup that emotionaly scared the pup and so the said pup needs extra work. 

My girl Vendetta, yes she was from an oops litter, she is shy around men. I'm working on it every week we go into town to find men that will greet her and she is getting better. I don't plan on breeding her I will leave that to people that know what they are doing but I would hate to think that because of this SHYNESS she would be culled.


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## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Sometimes the mother will kill her young just because she can not properly care for them all. She will get it down to a more managable amount.
> 
> I had a friend whos female killed every puppy in every litter she ever had. She didnt weed out just the "bad" ones, but all of them.


yea a friend of mine had a lab and both litters she had she killed every pup. and i had to help mary clean up the mess...that was one of the worst things iv'e ever seen, and i worked in an ER for 8 yrs. ....i've never seens something like that..the first time it happen we were in such shock, i knew that animals did that, but i'd never seen it first hand, and the thing that got me was, i would have never thought that with the plesant temperment nyla had that she would of done something like that...i tell you it wont bother me one bit if i never see that kinda thing again in my life.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> A shy APBT is not the correct temperament for a true APBT.
> 
> But I never said cull a dog who lacks drive or is conformationally incorrect. So please do not put words in my mouth. For that type of dog I would spay and neuter. I am talking about mentally unsound dogs who displays trouble early on.


But its hard to tell anything at only 3 months.

_*"Back to the OP yes from what you describe I would breed the dog. This is what I would do. Breed the dog and evaluate the litter when they are 12 weeks. Any weird temperaments and I would cull the litter and spay the bitch. IMO"*_

In this post made by you, you said you would cull the entire litter for "any weird temperaments". What about culling the "bad ones" and spay/neuter the rest? Wouldnt that be better advise to a young breeder?



> I have a really shy dogs in my kennel that is spayed. I did not breed her she was a rescue I kept so don't think I would not work with a dog that had issues. But as breeder you should be able to identify any potential problems and take care of it.


In your opinion, shouldnt that dog be culled?



> I breed for working dogs and look for drive and intelligence. But anything I breed is not because I am looking for a better working dog I breed and want to keep true characteristics of this breed.


Thats a good thing, but you should also be breeding to better the breed.



> Keeping away from show-lines and sticking more to the gamebred dogs helps ensure this. A great gamebred dog has everything I need in a working dog. I do have a bitch that I am breeding back to some show lines but that is a favor to my sister kennel and I hope to get some nice dogs in that litter. That will be my first breeding into show-lines.


As far as the ADBA goes, show lines are game lines. If youre talking about the UKC, I agree.

What are the lines behind the blue dog in your sig? I havent seen to many "game lines" produce blue dogs.



> and statements like this
> 
> "False. I agree on the HA part, but answer this. Should we start killing every person in the world who is a little shy?"
> 
> Is really stupid, these are dogs not people! give me a break!


For people who truely love their dogs, they are alot like people.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 16, 2007)

good post Mikado.......


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## shadowgames (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, I would and have, wouldn't inbred back to that dog or even linebred with anything again with the dog you speak of but I would inbred back to a littermate of that particular dog.


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## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> We're just talking at little shy here, not downright HA. A shy dog can be worked with. HA is a different story altogether.


i agree with you here. some shyness can be worked with, but if the dog is being shy out of fear, then you have to step back and look at the situation. can a dog really be that happy if it is scared of interaction, b/c that is what this breed lives for is human contact.not only that, you run into problems with fear, lashing out, or either the complete opposite, but they are unstable. but i dont think that would be a reason to kill it, unless it has shown HA (but with that too, you have to step back and evelauate to determin why the dog did what it did) was it human error? or the dog. thankfully now days they have test that you can run to make sure it's not genetical, then go from there to determin how stable the dog is. b/c i do agree, if someone just breeds to trun out dogs with aggression NO MATTER THE BREED, 1. that PERSON should be put down. 2. the dogs once again, need to be tested to see how safe they will be in a home or in society in general.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Rock Creek I am not going to continue to argue with you, it is pointless. Back to the OP it was not that I think any litter of dogs should be culled for being shy we were talking about breeding his dog. You try to make it seem like I would cull everything. Don't try to make this about me it was a suggestion to his OP.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

It's interesting to see others opinions about this topic ... Especially those who do breed. We don't have to agree with one another it's nice to have a debate without ripping each others heads off. Thanks everyone for your contribution to the thread


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## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

i second that sadie, i like threads like this...we all agree to disagree..or agree..hehe..but we all get educated ....that's what i like, b/c your never to old to learn.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> Rock Creek I am not going to continue to argue with you, it is pointless. Back to the OP it was not that I think any litter of dogs should be culled for being shy we were talking about breeding his dog. You try to make it seem like I would cull everything. Don't try to make this about me it was a suggestion to his OP.


I'm not wanting to argue, just have a good discussion.

What exactly do you mean by OP?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Rock Creek OP is short for ORIGINAL POSTER


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

chic4pits said:


> i agree with you here. some shyness can be worked with, but if the dog is being shy out of fear, then you have to step back and look at the situation. can a dog really be that happy if it is scared of interaction, b/c that is what this breed lives for is human contact.not only that, you run into problems with fear, lashing out, or either the complete opposite, but they are unstable. but i dont think that would be a reason to kill it, unless it has shown HA (but with that too, you have to step back and evelauate to determin why the dog did what it did) was it human error? or the dog. thankfully now days they have test that you can run to make sure it's not genetical, then go from there to determin how stable the dog is. b/c i do agree, if someone just breeds to trun out dogs with aggression NO MATTER THE BREED, 1. that PERSON should be put down. 2. the dogs once again, need to be tested to see how safe they will be in a home or in society in general.


I agree with you. Every dog and situation is different. Shyness in itself wouldn't be a reason to cull, but the reasons for the shyness and the behavior of the dog due to shyness may be.

I just kind of thought from reading the thread that a lot of people were using "shy" and "HA" interchangeably, and they are not necessarily the same thing. A shay dog can be HA, and HA dog can be shy, but they do not always go hand in hand.


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## redsky (Feb 28, 2009)

I have a hard time visualizing a shy dog such as that excelling for one if she's people shy in any way she wouldn't do well at any type of event being that she'd have people on all sides of prior to even performing. Those that participate in events understand what I am saying there are people lined on both sides in weight pull and even in ob and agility there are different situations they put them in to ensure they are not people shy so that really isn't a situation that could happen in reality. At some point the dog had to have been desensitized in order for her to have achieved in any area. Sorry to shoot down the question. Long as a dog is not HA (in this case a fear bitter) and has no serious structure problems I would see nothing wrong with breeding the dog.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I understood that the dog was shy when approached by people. I have seen dogs like that. They are so into their owner that they pay no attention to the people around them and can exceed at a sport. They just don't want other people handeling them.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

my personal opinion is to not breed the dog, i dont like shy APBT's. about having a shy dog and having its working ability hindered.... i agree and disagree. my pup is shy but he is also so drivey he can power threw these things. now conformation on the other hand i doubt since there is so much touching involved, but im not concerned about doing any phew phew shows.


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## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" (Aug 7, 2008)

wheezie said:


> my personal opinion is to not breed the dog, i dont like shy APBT's. about having a shy dog and having its working ability hindered.... i agree and disagree. my pup is shy but he is also so drivey he can power threw these things. now conformation on the other hand i doubt since there is so much touching involved, but im not concerned about doing any phew phew shows.


Can we see some video or at least some photos of this guy in action? It sounds like he's an active bugger.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i got some pics loading right now, my gf camera is so slow.


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## redsky (Feb 28, 2009)

lol phew phew shows that's funny Wayne lol they have there pluses and minuses for me I don't do it to say oh hey look at my trophy dog i do it for the socialization, I've found if you get your pups out and do things with them while they are pups you won't hinder your own dog to be shy. You could try several tech. to break your dog from being shy such as having strangers hand him/her treats etc if you are looking to pull the dog out of it. Most of the time the shyness is due to lack of confidence and building it up is not that hard. I know I wouldn't like my dog to be shy so I'd do whatever I could to better the situation regardless of if the dog is able to work or not because it's still a down fall if the dog were to ever get out the yard or something without it's owner and a stranger approached, yeah that could turn real ugly for the dog and the stranger.....


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I would breed the dog, the litter is going to produce many pups varying in desired traits. The shyness could be the dog or it could be attributed to poor early socialization. The dog has the genetics I would be looking for so I would find a suitor of the same qualities only not shy and breed the dog. Then, if elimination of the shy trait was important, I would watch the litter and all dogs that show shyness would be spayed/neutered and placed as pets. The outgoing and personable dogs would go to working homes.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Another thing to consider is that you have ONE pup out of a litter of several. You may have gotten a shy dog when there were plenty of outgoing aggressive dogs. So the trait to be outgoing is in the dogs genetic makeup. This is the whole reason of breeding. To take good dogs and make better dogs out of them. The dog has a whole list of good qualities with one less than desirable one. Find a mate equally impressive with plenty of personality and breed the dogs to get a better litter.


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## redsky (Feb 28, 2009)

Well put Andy!


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

wheezie said:


> my personal opinion is to not breed the dog, i dont like shy APBT's. about having a shy dog and having its working ability hindered.... i agree and disagree. my pup is shy but he is also so drivey he can power threw these things. now conformation on the other hand i doubt since there is so much touching involved, but im not concerned about doing any phew phew shows.


The thing about apbt shows is, the judge usually never touches the dog. The breeds that usually get felt are long hair dogs that are hard to see the structure of. I've seen this mentioned several times in this thread.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> Rock Creek I am not going to continue to argue with you, it is pointless. Back to the OP it was not that I think any litter of dogs should be culled for being shy we were talking about breeding his dog. You try to make it seem like I would cull everything. Don't try to make this about me it was a suggestion to his OP.


Do you breed your unregistered dogs?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Do you breed your unregistered dogs?


First off this has nothing to do with the OP and if you want a fight take it to a pm or start a new thread!:snap:


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> First off this has nothing to do with the OP and if you want a fight take it to a pm or start a new thread!:snap:


Wow, would have been alot easier to just say yes or no.

It actually does have something to do with the OP. If youre breeding unregistered dogs, I wouldnt take ANY advise from you whatsoever.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Actually I would love to take you to the "pit" on the GD forum! You think you know it all and refuse to agree to disagree and then take it to another level with snippy comments. You breed for weight pull dogs and not for the characteristics that makes up this great breed. By doing that you are not breeding APBT's you are breeding weight pull dogs. Get real..... if you would like to hash it out let me know and let's go to the "Pit"
The Pit - Pit Bull Forums
If you do not want to go to the pit, I will not sit here and bicker on this forum. It is childish and serves no purpose. If you are interested in the few litters I produce a year you can see what my kennel is about by visiting my website!
Working American Pit Bull Terriers
Our kennels is not a one trick pony, we compete in many sports not just weight pull.


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## redsky (Feb 28, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> The thing about apbt shows is, the judge usually never touches the dog. The breeds that usually get felt are long hair dogs that are hard to see the structure of. I've seen this mentioned several times in this thread.


VERY WRONG!!! THAT INFORMATION IS NOT TRUE THE DOG IS ALWAYS GOING OVER IN UKC NOT SURE ABOUT HOW NKC OR ADBA DOES IT BUT IN UKC THE JUDGE MUST GO OVER THE TOPLINE THE HEAD, CHECK THE BITE AND CHECK THE REAR ENDS TO MAKE SURE THE DOG IS STILL IN TACT TO...


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I have never seen a UKC show where a dog was not felt down. ADBA maybe different, and I don't yet do ADBA shows so I can't say for them but as far as UKC yes they are felt down .


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## Southern Inferno (Mar 12, 2009)

The dogs are rarely touched by the judge in the ADBA.


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## redsky (Feb 28, 2009)

This is the show from this past weekend didn't get a lot of judge interaction pics but you can see in these two pics the judge is clearly touching the dog!! The judge also goes in the dogs mouth....


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## Southern Inferno (Mar 12, 2009)

Depends on the show. UKC/AKC shows are very different from ADBA/AADR shows. 

I have yet to see and ADBA judge actually touch a dog.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

redsky said:


> VERY WRONG!!! THAT INFORMATION IS NOT TRUE THE DOG IS ALWAYS GOING OVER IN UKC NOT SURE ABOUT HOW NKC OR ADBA DOES IT BUT IN UKC THE JUDGE MUST GO OVER THE TOPLINE THE HEAD, CHECK THE BITE AND CHECK THE REAR ENDS TO MAKE SURE THE DOG IS STILL IN TACT TO...


Thats funny, I was at a UKC show in Athens, TN this past weekend and NEVER saw a judge lay a hand on an APBT in the show ring. I've shown many times in the UKC, ADBA, NKC, as well as a few other smaller organizations and have NEVER had any judge lay a hand on my dogs in the show ring. I know it's done, but doesnt have to be with APBTs. You can tell everything you need to know by only observation.

The handler shows the bite. The judges obviously arent blind, so they can see if a male has testicles or not. They dont have to feel for it! :hammer:


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> Actually I would love to take you to the "pit" on the GD forum! You think you know it all and refuse to agree to disagree and then take it to another level with snippy comments. You breed for weight pull dogs and not for the characteristics that makes up this great breed. By doing that you are not breeding APBT's you are breeding weight pull dogs. Get real..... if you would like to hash it out let me know and let's go to the "Pit"
> The Pit - Pit Bull Forums
> If you do not want to go to the pit, I will not sit here and bicker on this forum. It is childish and serves no purpose. If you are interested in the few litters I produce a year you can see what my kennel is about by visiting my website!
> Working American Pit Bull Terriers
> Our kennels is not a one trick pony, we compete in many sports not just weight pull.


I have looked at your website now and see that you do breed unregistered dogs. Thats all I was wondering.

I wouldnt call our kennel a "one trick pony" either. Considering we own and have produced several champions and aces not only in weight pull, but also in the show ring. Producing several top 25 ADBA dogs. We have also done ALOT of obedience work including but not limited to Rally, Agility, and Personal Protection. That has all been acomplished with only a litter of registered dogs every couple years. 

We dont only breed for weight pull, but we DO NOT breed for the box either.


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

If a person can not cull, do not breed. It is as simple as that.

Yes, they do touch the dogs in UKC. They feel the shoulders and rear. I have been to UKC shows for over 17 years, and have never seen a dog not be touched, unless they were already examined in the class, and then went in for best of winners. 

In my opinion, most breeders do not even know enough about temperament to evaluate a dog. They make excuses for their dog's temperament all the time. 
Here are some examples:
1. A top show breeder has dog skittish in the ring:"oh, he has been put up for awhile"
2. A top game dog breeder, has dog pissing all over himself rolling on i'ts back: "oh, ain't he just the sweetest dog"
3. A backyard breeder, can't let you see the parent's of his pups: "they just love me so much, and are protective"

I know this, because I have been to top show dog kennels yards and true top gamedog breeders yards, as well as all between. I have bred some good dogs, and some not so good dogs. I feel the main problem with this breed, is most breeders are not willing to clean up their own messes. Temperament, and strong nerve come before everything, or should.

There are so many good dogs to choose from, why waste your time trying to fix a genetic issue, like shyness or nerviness. If someone chooses to breed a litter, and decides to keep all the shy pups themselves (spay/neuter). More power to them, just don't pass on all your project pups to other people, keep them all yourself, and deal with it.
Howard Burgess of Howard's working APBTs


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> If a person can not cull, do not breed. It is as simple as that.


You can cull without killing. 



> Yes, they do touch the dogs in UKC. They feel the shoulders and rear. I have been to UKC shows for over 17 years, and have never seen a dog not be touched, unless they were already examined in the class, and then went in for best of winners.


*"the judge usually never touches the dog"

"I know it's done, but doesnt have to be with APBTs."*

These are 2 post made by me in the past 2 days. Did I ever say that a judge never touches the dogs? I dont think so. 



> In my opinion, most breeders do not even know enough about temperament to evaluate a dog. They make excuses for their dog's temperament all the time.
> Here are some examples:
> 1. A top show breeder has dog skittish in the ring:"oh, he has been put up for awhile"
> 2. A top game dog breeder, has dog pissing all over himself rolling on i'ts back: "oh, ain't he just the sweetest dog"
> 3. A backyard breeder, can't let you see the parent's of his pups: "they just love me so much, and are protective"


In my opinion, most breeders who have done it for over 17 years, know not to breed unregistered dogs.  The only people who do that, are people who breed for money. 



> I know this, because I have been to top show dog kennels yards and true top gamedog breeders yards, as well as all between. I have bred some good dogs, and some not so good dogs. I feel the main problem with this breed, is most breeders are not willing to clean up their own messes. Temperament, and strong nerve come before everything, or should.


Still not a good reason to inhumanely kill puppies.  They can be spay/neutered and placed in pet only homes. I'm not talking about HA dogs either.

After 17 years, you should be a top breeder yourself. Otherwise, youre not doing something right. 



> There are so many good dogs to choose from, why waste your time trying to fix a genetic issue, like shyness or nerviness. If someone chooses to breed a litter, and decides to keep all the shy pups themselves (spay/neuter). More power to them, just don't pass on all your project pups to other people, keep them all yourself, and deal with it.
> Howard Burgess of Howard's working APBTs


There are alot of people out there who would give a "non top-quality" pup a great home. Pups become skittish for a reason. Something has had to happen to make them that way.  Our pups are raised around people and children from day one. They are born and raised indoors in a clean & loving enviroment. 

You have no idea how many dogs we rescue that are unregistered apbts from byb's. People breeding only for money who could care less what happens to the pups after they leave their yard.

If you notice on our site there are alot of produced pics. Thats not because we have bred alot, but because our pups almost always go to friends or other working kennels. We have friends bring over dogs they have gotten from us on an almost daily basis. 

Willie Spurgeon of Rock Creek Kennels
Rock Creek Kennels - Home 
Producers of top quality weight pull, obedience, family, & show apbts


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

To Rockcreek,
There are two Performance kennels on here, in case you have not noticed. I may consider myself a bull breed expert, but would not want to be called a top breeder, because to many people, that means breeding a bunch of dogs, which I do not do. I also do not breed unregistered dogs, nor do I promote that.

I am also curious, is this the same rockcreek kennel, that used to say "breeding the total package" on their website?

So these inferior dogs that you place, are they spayed or neutered before you place them? If not, you are not taking them out of the breeding program, because promises and contracts do not prevent breedings.

Regarding my 20 plus years into the breed, and over 17 years titling them, Yes, I am proud of that.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Rockcreek I like how you try to come off as the moral authority on breeding APBT's. You are saying that you would place a dog and S/N with temperament issues? THAT is irresponsible. Not all issues a dog has mean it should be culled, culling is not done very often and when it is used it prevents dogs with unsound temperaments getting into the hands of the public. Now what do you do with a HA dog? put it down? That is called culling and if you would put down a HA dog then call it what it is.

As far as my website goes I do not put all my dogs peds on my site. The people my dogs go to are on co-own and I do not need to publicize my pedigrees like some people do. I have several of my working dogs that are gamebred and because of that I have hand written pedigrees. Many game kennels today to not register with the ADBA or UKC and there is nothing wrong with that. When I did breed any of my unregistered dogs they are not sold they were kept by us. I own several generations of these dogs. The rest of my kennel is S/N and are pets. Currently since you are so interested in my breeding, I have none of the old stock left that is intact and not registered. 

You say that there are many people who would give a non top quality dog a home? We are not saying cull a dog because of looks or doesn't meet the standard, we are talking about temperament.

I have never had some say "yeah I am looking for a pet quality dog, I don't care if it has a bad temperament" and if you are placing dogs (if you breed dogs you will eventually come across bad ones) that are shady and calling them pet quality then you are doing the owners a great injustice. I put down many resources that come through with bad temperaments because they are dangerous to try and place. You are starting to remind me of those rescue groups that think all pitbulls should be saved. No many dogs should be put down for temperament issues and the well balanced dogs should be up for adoption. The reason our dogs have a bad name in the public are because of BYB and breeders that will place any dog no matter what type of temperament, also shelters not doing good Job of weeding out dangerous dogs.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> To Rockcreek,
> There are two Performance kennels on here, in case you have not noticed. I may consider myself a bull breed expert, but would not want to be called a top breeder, because to many people, that means breeding a bunch of dogs, which I do not do. I also do not breed unregistered dogs, nor do I promote that.


Totally my fault and I apologize. Didnt realize there were two different ones.



> I am also curious, is this the same rockcreek kennel, that used to say "breeding the total package" on their website?


Nope. Not us.



> So these inferior dogs that you place, are they spayed or neutered before you place them? If not, you are not taking them out of the breeding program, because promises and contracts do not prevent breedings.


Absolutley. By law, with us also being a registered rescue, any dog we place must be spayed/neutered before the new owner ever takes ownership. If there was an undesired trait in any dog we ever produced, I wouldnt want that passed on in our line.



> Regarding my 20 plus years into the breed, and over 17 years titling them, Yes, I am proud of that.


As you should be, and as are we.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> Rockcreek I like how you try to come off as the moral authority on breeding APBT's.


Nope, just have enough common sense to make proper decisions based on each individual situation.



> You are saying that you would place a dog and S/N with temperament issues? THAT is irresponsible.


Depends on what the temperment issues were. If out right H/A, no. If just a little shy, yes. But we would keep the pup longer than 12 weeks and work with it to see the real issues. Like i've said several times, you cant tell much at only 12 weeks. Plus, we would never just take the easy way out.

Do you think the oldtimers only waited 12 weeks to determine if a dog was gonna be any good?



> Not all issues a dog has mean it should be culled, culling is not done very often and when it is used it prevents dogs with unsound temperaments getting into the hands of the public. Now what do you do with a HA dog? put it down? That is called culling and if you would put down a HA dog then call it what it is.


Refer to post above.



> As far as my website goes I do not put all my dogs peds on my site. The people my dogs go to are on co-own and I do not need to publicize my pedigrees like some people do.


So, are you not proud of the blood you have?

I personally like the Caragan stuff.



> I have several of my working dogs that are gamebred and because of that I have hand written pedigrees. Many game kennels today to not register with the ADBA or UKC and there is nothing wrong with that.


The only kennels I know that do it this way match dogs. ADBA or UKC will not put "CH" on the papers, so they will go through other registeries that will or just "hand write" them.

...or the dogs are unregistered, and people who dont know any better think a handwritten pedigree is just as good as one from a quality registery.

I know plenty of people who have gamebred dogs that are registered ADBA. Including dogs from Floyd & the Colbys. So i'm not sure why you do it that way.



> When I did breed any of my unregistered dogs they are not sold they were kept by us. I own several generations of these dogs. The rest of my kennel is S/N and are pets. Currently since you are so interested in my breeding, I have none of the old stock left that is intact and not registered.


So you kept and still have every pup from every unregistered litter you ever produced? I find that hard to believe.



> You say that there are many people who would give a non top quality dog a home? We are not saying cull a dog because of looks or doesn't meet the standard, we are talking about temperament.


Please refer back to my 2nd post above.



> I have never had some say "yeah I am looking for a pet quality dog, I don't care if it has a bad temperament"


We've never had anyone say that either. Please refer to my 2nd post above.

Your first post in this thread, you said.....

*"Back to the OP yes from what you describe I would breed the dog. This is what I would do. Breed the dog and evaluate the litter when they are 12 weeks. Any weird temperaments and I would cull the litter and spay the bitch. IMO"*

Cull the litter at only 12 weeks for "Any weird temperments". 



> and if you are placing dogs (if you breed dogs you will eventually come across bad ones) that are shady and calling them pet quality then you are doing the owners a great injustice. I put down many resources that come through with bad temperaments because they are dangerous to try and place.


Please, once again, refer to my 2nd post above. This is like deja vue.



> You are starting to remind me of those rescue groups that think all pitbulls should be saved. No many dogs should be put down for temperament issues and the well balanced dogs should be up for adoption. The reason our dogs have a bad name in the public are because of BYB and breeders that will place any dog no matter what type of temperament, also shelters not doing good Job of weeding out dangerous dogs.


Wow, You really have no clue about us......


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## redsky (Feb 28, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Thats funny, I was at a UKC show in Athens, TN this past weekend and NEVER saw a judge lay a hand on an APBT in the show ring. I've shown many times in the UKC, ADBA, NKC, as well as a few other smaller organizations and have NEVER had any judge lay a hand on my dogs in the show ring. I know it's done, but doesnt have to be with APBTs. You can tell everything you need to know by only observation.
> 
> The handler shows the bite. The judges obviously arent blind, so they can see if a male has testicles or not. They dont have to feel for it! :hammer:


If the judge at a UKC show is not touching your dog you need to turn them into UKC go over the rules the judge is clearly suppose to handle the dog, the judge does not have to personally open the dogs mouth but most do come over and lift the lips that's the judges preference. Feel sad for those in your area showing because clearly you have some issue up there that shouldn't be....


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

redsky said:


> If the judge at a UKC show is not touching your dog you need to turn them into UKC go over the rules the judge is clearly suppose to handle the dog, the judge does not have to personally open the dogs mouth but most do come over and lift the lips that's the judges preference. Feel sad for those in your area showing because clearly you have some issue up there that shouldn't be....


The proper way to show the dogs bite is for the handler to straddle the dog holding it firmly with their legs. The handler should lift the dogs lips showing the front teeth as well as the k9s. The judge can clearly see the dogs bite and shouldnt have to touch your dogs mouth.

I wouldnt want a judge that had his hands in a hundred other dogs mouths, putting his hands in my dogs mouth. It would not only be unsanitary, but also unnecessary.

With an apbt having a short coat, you can clearly see how it's put together. When judging, the only reason I would ever touch a dog is to help determine condition. That would only be if two dogs were too close in confirmation, and I needed another factor to make my decision. Another deciding factor is the dogs performance in the show ring.

We dont show UKC anyway. Reason #1, they put the dogs nose to butt around the ring. As we all already know, this isnt a good idea with apbts. Reason #2, our dogs arent really that "style". I've noticed with the UKC (most the time) they like a little more of an Amstaff look & build. Reason #3, super thin, thread like show collars. Do you really think a piece of thread will stop a dog that can pull over 100x their body weight?

Once again.....I didnt say they NEVER touch the dogs.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

no,for me the shy dog has alot of issues,i like confidance in "a dog,a dog scared of nothing made of flesh" so to speak, a shy dog seems like a problem to me,especially in pp. work.
Now ive heard many game dogs are actually shy when it comes to human interatctions,i guees it would matter little on a hunt but if the dog is supposed to engaging the bad guy i believe shyness wuold be a big problem,jmo...


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

ever been to A show or A pull that the judge looked at someone and then approached the dog then told the handler to remove it from the competition?


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> It actually does have something to do with the OP. If youre breeding unregistered dogs, I wouldnt take ANY advise from you whatsoever.


Are you saying that people that dont register there stock are clueless and have nothing to offer this breed as in any good advice, or are you saying only registered dogs are worth breeding, feeding or talkin about? What are you tryin to tell us? 
Papers mean absolutly nothing to me, or to my circle of true dogmen! Its all about the heart of a true bulldawg that holds any merit in my book!
Personally I dont think you would take any advice from anyone!
The day ya think you know everything, is the same day ya stop learning ANYTHING!


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Great post Pimpidypimp!!!!


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

pimpidypimp said:


> Are you saying that people that dont register there stock are clueless and have nothing to offer this breed as in any good advice, or are you saying only registered dogs are worth breeding, feeding or talkin about? What are you tryin to tell us?


No, i'm talking about people who breed unregistered dogs just to make a buck. There are way to many people out there producing $50 flea market dogs by the dozens. These are the dogs we end up pulling from shelters everyday, getting spay/neutered, and finding loving homes for.

If you breed two quality registered dogs, and dont register the litter, you are actually hurting the breed as a whole. Youre also disrespecting the men who started these registeries so long ago.

There is no reason to breed unregistered or "junk registered" dogs. It's way to easy to get a good quality registered dog.

Personally, I wish a law would pass to stop these breeders. I think a dog should achieve something before he/she is ever even considered to be bred. I'm so tired of people talking about these bad ass dogs theyre breeding, and the dogs have never even left the logging chain theyre on in the back yard.



> Papers mean absolutly nothing to me, or to my circle of true dogmen!


My dogs mean everything to me. I could care less if they have papers or not. But luckily they all do.

In order to achieve a quality pull or show title, your dog must be registered.



> Its all about the heart of a true bulldawg that holds any merit in my book!
> Personally I dont think you would take any advice from anyone!
> The day ya think you know everything, is the same day ya stop learning ANYTHING!


I learn new things about these dogs everyday. I just like to take the advise of men who have been into these dogs longer than i've been alive.  Not the advise of someone on the internet.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Great now great dog men that bred unregistered dogs of th past are BYB! lol
We will all burn in hell for have unregistered stock because we are in it only for the money! LMFAO
Pimpidypimp great post. But there is not point in trying to share an op with this guy. we will just have to sit back and see what snappy comment he comes up with now


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## Pitcrew (Jan 19, 2008)

Back to the shy dog. I have a shy female, very well bred and quite a looker as well. VERY shy to new people, takes FOREVER to get used to someone, but very sweet and submissive to the immediate family. I bred her once, she had ONE pup and we kept him. He is NOT shy in the least. I will show him, but cannot show the dam. She was a gift from a friend at 6 months old. She was shy and timid when we first got her home, but soon was really good with the family but not with strangers. She is gamebred as are all my dogs. Registered with ADBA.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Great now great dog men that bred unregistered dogs of th past are BYB! lol
> We will all burn in hell for have unregistered stock because we are in it only for the money! LMFAO
> Pimpidypimp great post. But there is not point in trying to share an op with this guy. we will just have to sit back and see what snappy comment he comes up with now


(like the late crocodile hunter) CRIIICKEY WHAT A BIG SNAPPER HE HAS... OBVIOUSLY HES VERRRRY DANGEROUS!!!


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> Great now great dog men that bred unregistered dogs of th past are BYB! lol
> We will all burn in hell for have unregistered stock because we are in it only for the money! LMFAO
> Pimpidypimp great post. But there is not point in trying to share an op with this guy. we will just have to sit back and see what snappy comment he comes up with now


The best dogmen always registered their litters. Thats why we can follow our pedigrees back to their pedigrees. 

Give me one reason why you would not register a litter if both parents are registered?

I'm listening, you just always avoid my questions.


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

I'll tell you why I dont, Theres no need too, Its a rip off, papers get hung, Adba now registers Amstaffs, somtimes the best dogs are one's nobody kows about, (ya know like a secret) lets see I could add more like> I dont sell dogs to the public, I dont show dogs, I dont wieght pull, hold up theres more> like who is Honeybunches real sire or what about CH Cowboy he's got 2 differant pedigrees. More I dont feel the need to have the FED's Crawlin up my ass, Also why am I gonna pay a regististry to do what I can do with a pencil and a piece of notebook paper


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

papering was by far the greatest tool inherent to any breed.
the old cats back in my day had papers that were sacred in several ways.
one,they had sets of papers that were hand-written from the old countrIES.or copies of old papers.
two,they pored ov er these papers like no-one would today.we have used old dog names as if they really mean something."I got skeeter peter in my dogs bloodlines"big whooptee.how many have dogs that maintain that symetry and blood alignment that we reffered to as nicking?when you are looking for an attribute or specific quality and then raising 5-6 pups that "look" promising to see if it evolves.do you have any clue the pain on old boys face after keepin them pups for a year to two just to see them flounder?when they won't scratch or cower from a hog or steer catch.not baiting up to the hunt.
they used to have A sayin,if'n you ain't nickin blood your tainting it.
papers mean alot less today than they did back then.they were our bible. we preached from 'em ar paypers.Dear God,please oh please make this dog go.I promise I won't swear on church ground or sunday eber eber agin!!!


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

I think we should start a new thread about this subject (papers)


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with having and breeding unregistered stock. These are dogs that have handwritten pedigrees and that is just the same as a ukc registration paper that has a ped. These are not dogs with unknown peds being bred. Now I speak in general not about my personal dogs here. I know how you like to make asumptions.....
People paper hang all the time look at what happened to the gotti and RE line!
If you have registered stock then I think you should keep up with the paper trail but not all breeders do. 

You had said that you can only show a dog with papers in show and weight pull. Not true. Maybe conformation but WP can be done by many venues without a pedigree from UKC or ADBA. You can also compete in Agility, Obedience, and rally in different venues without being fixed and with no registration.
UKC, AKC, ADBA, it's all about the money and not that I do not participate in those registries (I am the president of a UKC club) but it is not the end all be all. Your opinion is just that, and many do not agree with you. You try to lump BYB in with dogmen who did not register dogs. 

Look at the GSD, Mal's or Dutch's. Dogs are being imported from Europe with handwritten peds or peds that will not be recognized in the US. I work closely with police dogs and Schutzhund dogs that we important and train for police work. These dogs are mostly unregistered for one reason or another and come from HUGE working kennels in Europe. Are these dogs not worthy of breeding because they do not have AKC papers? Bull Sh$$ Dogs with no registration are being bred all the time for working dogs. They are being imported/exported and no one is calling them BYB's. It's just they way things are sometimes. So you can think that only responsible breeders will register dogs with UKC, AKC, ADBA but truth is many dogs and breed are not being registered because it is not a big deal as along as you are keeping track of records with hand written peds.
I think that if dogs have registration you should keep up with it but if not I am not one to say you are wrong.

This has nothing to do with BYB's that a whole different can of worms.....


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> There is nothing wrong with having and breeding unregistered stock.


There really is. You cant prove what is really bred into your dogs.



> These are dogs that have handwritten pedigrees and that is just the same as a ukc registration paper that has a ped. These are not dogs with unknown peds being bred.


It just doesnt make sense to breed two registered dogs, and not register the pups. Youre basically stopping the line at your breedings.



> Now I speak in general not about my personal dogs here. I know how you like to make asumptions.....
> People paper hang all the time look at what happened to the gotti and RE line!
> If you have registered stock then I think you should keep up with the paper trail but not all breeders do.


Thats where being and only dealing with reputable breeders is a great tool.



> You had said that you can only show a dog with papers in show and weight pull. Not true. Maybe conformation but WP can be done by many venues without a pedigree from UKC or ADBA.


Yes, you can show and pull in almost any organization with an unregistered dog. The only problem is you usually can not compete for titles, just in fun or novice classes.

Truthfully, the only titles that matter to most, are the ones from UKC or ADBA.



> You can also compete in Agility, Obedience, and rally in different venues without being fixed and with no registration.


The only part that sucks about that is there is no paperwork to put the titles on.



> UKC, AKC, ADBA, it's all about the money and not that I do not participate in those registries (I am the president of a UKC club) but it is not the end all be all. Your opinion is just that, and many do not agree with you. You try to lump BYB in with dogmen who did not register dogs.


Its pointless to breed registered dogs, and not register the pups. It dosent cost that much to register a litter, so there is no real reason not to do it.



> Look at the GSD, Mal's or Dutch's. Dogs are being imported from Europe with handwritten peds or peds that will not be recognized in the US. I work closely with police dogs and Schutzhund dogs that we important and train for police work. These dogs are mostly unregistered for one reason or another and come from HUGE working kennels in Europe. Are these dogs not worthy of breeding because they do not have AKC papers? Bull Sh$$ Dogs with no registration are being bred all the time for working dogs. They are being imported/exported and no one is calling them BYB's. It's just they way things are sometimes. So you can think that only responsible breeders will register dogs with UKC, AKC, ADBA but truth is many dogs and breed are not being registered because it is not a big deal as along as you are keeping track of records with hand written peds.


I would trust a certified pedigree from a reputable breeder over a handwritten one any day. I could care less how they do things in Europe. We're talking about apbt's here, not Germans or Belgians.



> I think that if dogs have registration you should keep up with it but if not I am not one to say you are wrong.
> 
> This has nothing to do with BYB's that a whole different can of worms.....


Why screw up history? The best breeders have registered their litters for over 100 years now. Obviously they wanted us to do the same. Its just a great tool for tracking and studying to see what worked well then.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

pimpidypimp said:


> I'll tell you why I dont, Theres no need too, Its a rip off, papers get hung,


Thats why you deal with a well known, reputable breeder. It dosent cost much at all to register a dog.



> Adba now registers Amstaffs,


ADBA has registered Amstaffs for years. They are actually an all breed registery now. Just like the UKC, AKC, & NKC.



> somtimes the best dogs are one's nobody kows about, (ya know like a secret)


 The only "secret" dogs I know of dont do any weight pull, obedience work, or show. They usually just sit in the back yard on a huge chain with the owner talking about how "badass" he is.



> lets see I could add more like> I dont sell dogs to the public,


Still not a good reason to not register your litters. Also not a good reason to breed unregistered dogs.



> I dont show dogs, I dont wieght pull,


Ok, I understand the "secret" dogs now. So why do you own and breed these dogs?



> hold up theres more> like who is Honeybunches real sire


Does Honeybunch look like she could have been an Irish Setter mix to you?



> or what about CH Cowboy he's got 2 differant pedigrees.


Could have been a mistake(humans make those) or just someone whos jealous trying to screw things up.

Must have been handwritten. oke:



> More I dont feel the need to have the FED's Crawlin up my ass,


The only reason you would have the feds "crawlin up your ass" is if you were doing something illegal. 



> Also why am I gonna pay a regististry to do what I can do with a pencil and a piece of notebook paper


To be a reputable breeder who is striving to better the breed. To honor what the men who created this breed wanted. To have certified proof of your dogs lineage. To help out the future generations of dog men.

To preserve history.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

performanceknls said:


> Pimpidypimp great post. But there is not point in trying to share an op with this guy. we will just have to sit back and see what snappy comment he comes up with now


People who think they know what theyre talking about, usually consider the facts as "snappy comments".


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

This thread seems to me to be just going around and around and really not accomplishing a whole heck of a lot so I'm closing it. RCK if you have a problem with another member take it to Dave( admin). But in all actuallity it just seems to me you are nit-picking.


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