# Had the Dog Park all to Ourselves!!!



## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

We went to the Dog Park with a friend of ours, she has a Pit/Boxer/AmBull... or something, we don't know lol. And of course before we even went in the gate someone freaked out and pulled out their small mixed breed dog. Apparently her Lab got attacked by a Pit and she is afraid of the entire breed. Poor little Mya was too afraid to even go in the park, there were 2 Huskies and another larger breed dog, so we went to the playground so my friends son could swing. We got bunches of comments on how our dogs were so pretty. By the time we got back we had free run of the park!!!! YAY!!! We played Tag... for like 2 minutes... we couldn't keep up with the 6 year old! lol Or the Dogs, we were dripping sweat, it was gross!!!


































































































































The Puppies got Tuckered out. lol


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Cute pictures. Be careful no one sneaks in on you when your there, could be a tragedy waiting to happen. Also, so many diseases in dog parks that the pups could pick up, so be extra careful.


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

Yeah a new dog came in and we immediately put the big dogs on leash so we could have control of the situation. We were hoping to Socialize them... but I guess we will have to find a different way to. They did great meeting the one dog (Who I think his owners just came to the Dog Park to let him go to the bathroom and then left lol)


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> Yeah a new dog came in and we immediately put the big dogs on leash so we could have control of the situation. We were hoping to Socialize them... but I guess we will have to find a different way to. They did great meeting the one dog (Who I think his owners just came to the Dog Park to let him go to the bathroom and then left lol)


http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/38109-socializing.html (link) Socializing and playing are two completely different concepts, even under a leashed setting these dogs do not belong in a dog park, even setting the high risk of fights aside diseases are also a high risk. No point in risking it.


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks for the opinion...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I can see how you think its just an opinion, but seriously, it should be treated as a steadfast rule to obey when owning these pups.

Please take a look at this:

http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/36349-pitbulls-dog-parks.html


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

IMO thats alot more than just an opinion its a warning


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> Thanks for the opinion...


No offense to you, im not trying to talk down on your or anything but its not opinion. Socializing has nothing to do with bringing your pups to a dog park or being able to play with a group of dogs. This is what i consider "new aged" theory. If you have more than one dog it can be important for you and your dogs to all get along, especially if you are needing a pack to hunt lets say. However with these dogs, the "pack mentality" does not come natural and heavy training can prove useful however you can never fully trust an APBT (or pet bull, american bully, etc) not to fight. I have never met any APBT, mix or "variation" (pet bull for instance) that did not eventually have DA in some degree.

Many people think the way you do, its misguided. Again, im not trying to run you off or make you feel lousy but to dismiss this as opinion is only setting your dogs up for failure... When it comes to socializing its true across the board no matter what breed we are talking about, however with dog parks, while i would NEVER recommend them for any breed this is a "law" we should all follow. By law not meaning government but by being responsible.

If you chose to continue, i can't stop you however that doesn't mean i can't try to give you proper information. I've been around this breed (and other working breeds) all my life, not once did anyone that believed they were the exception prove me wrong in what i tried to tell them.


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

Its okay to go to Shows and Events where there will be tons of the same sort of breed... but not to a dog park that is completely empty.

My dog didn't want to go in when there were already dogs there... and I didn't make her. But since it was empty when we came back we took the opportunity. It was getting late and we weren't going to be there long but wanted the dogs to play. My dogs don't get out often because I don't live in the best neighborhood... or rather trailerhood, and Mya is a horrible guard dog. But if it makes y'all feel like you've done something, I won't go to another empty dog park.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> When it comes to socializing its true across the board no matter what breed we are talking about, however with dog parks, while i would NEVER recommend them for any breed this is a "law" we should all follow. By law not meaning government but by being responsible.
> 
> If you chose to continue, i can't stop you however that doesn't mean i can't try to give you proper information.


:goodpost: Love the wording...


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> Its okay to go to Shows and Events where there will be tons of the same sort of breed... but not to a dog park that is completely empty.
> 
> My dog didn't want to go in when there were already dogs there... and I didn't make her. But since it was empty when we came back we took the opportunity. It was getting late and we weren't going to be there long but wanted the dogs to play. My dogs don't get out often because I don't live in the best neighborhood... or rather trailerhood, and Mya is a horrible guard dog. But if it makes y'all feel like you've done something, I won't go to another empty dog park.


Again, diseases are also there. Intestinal parasites, Fungal infections, (blastomycosis, histoplasmosis, cryptococcosis, coccidioidomycosis, etc.) External parasites, (ticks, fleas and mange) Parvo, etc can all be present at dog parks. You are trusting that everyone else using that dog park at any given time is up to date on their shots, not bringing any sick pups or dogs there.
Also, if your dogs are out running while its empty and someone else decides to bring their Lab (lets just say) that also happens to be dominate by nature. You are unable to catch your dogs in time they run up for a "friendly greet" then bam, "it" happens. Now guess who gets blamed? Doesn't matter what you can prove the fact is your dogs will be labeled as a "Aggressive Pit Bull" and more than likely PTS and even BSL raised. All could have been avoided if you just didn't go.

As i said before, you can do what you wish you feed your dogs, take care of them and pay all their bills i don't. All i'm trying to do is give you an opportunity to see where an experienced owner is coming from and teach you how this can be troublesome. However if you refuse to learn, or take it in for what ever reason at the end of the day its not really my "problem". I'm trying to help you and your dogs, educate though its up to you as far as what you chose to do with it.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

There are just too many unknown factors and too many of those you can't control, as great as dog parks are in theory they really just don't work. Any every dog forum has horror stories in the threads and almost all the vast majority are against them. Too many people (not saying you are one of them, btw) take the easy way out and that is their dogs main "exercise" for the week. I'm sure you do other things as well so please don't get me wrong but just because you do doesn't mean you can control another persons _____ dog from being so overly excited to actually get out of the house that something goes wrong.. And thats looking at it from not a breed or illness perspective as i've already mentioned that quite a bit.. Just one more reason.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> Its okay to go to Shows and Events where there will be tons of the same sort of breed... but not to a dog park that is completely empty.
> 
> My dog didn't want to go in when there were already dogs there... and I didn't make her. But since it was empty when we came back we took the opportunity. It was getting late and we weren't going to be there long but wanted the dogs to play. My dogs don't get out often because I don't live in the best neighborhood... or rather trailerhood, and Mya is a horrible guard dog. But if it makes y'all feel like you've done something, I won't go to another empty dog park.


There are no loose dogs running around or interacting at any show I've been to. And even then I've seen a few accidental scraps when dogs get too close at shows.

What KM is telling you is right and the link that ames posted is a good thread. The fact that the lady you spoke to when you first got there told you her dog had been attacked by a pit bull should tell you something. Better safe than sorry.


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I see where you're coming from... but I know my dog. She runs from cats. If a fight does happen it will be hard to blame the dog that will be the one cowering on the ground with wounds on her backside.

But thanks for turning this thread into a "Lets Flame the new chick for letting her dogs go to a dog park ONCE"


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I see where you're coming from... but I know my dog. She runs from cats. If a fight does happen it will be hard to blame the dog that will be the one cowering on the ground with wounds on her backside.
> 
> But thanks for turning this thread into a "Lets Flame the new chick for letting her dogs go to a dog park ONCE"


I didn't see any flaming at all. What I did see is advice. But hey, you know your dog so it's all good, I suppose.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I see where you're coming from... but I know my dog. She runs from cats. If a fight does happen it will be hard to blame the dog that will be the one cowering on the ground with wounds on her backside.
> 
> But thanks for turning this thread into a "Lets Flame the new chick for letting her dogs go to a dog park ONCE"


I'm sorry but thats how EVERYONE thinks thats new to this breed, oh he/she wont hurt a fly, they are always submissive. We are not flaming you and in most (if not all) of my posts i have told you i mean no offense or to push you away however to just "ignore" something like this i wouldn't be doing my part on this community.

Take it for how you wish and i do hope you stay (and not run off) as you can learn a great deal from being here, not to say you are "ignorant" as everyone can learn something at some point..No one knows everything the world has to offer. Just read what we have spoke, when you have time read the links provided and use best judgement with the information provided here.

In the end i would just hate for someone to make the same mistake countless others have in the past and currently still do with all the information out there now in days.


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

Got it. I'll just find some other way to let my dogs have fun

And don't worry I'm not going to run off because of this. Little Miss Akasha is the first Puppy that I've had for more than a month. The information gained for her benefit outweighs this little argument.

Like Knuckling Over. I'd never heard of it before I came here and now I'm deathly afraid Akasha will develop it so I keep checking her legs. And helping with Mya's apparent Allergy has helped a ton too.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> Got it. I'll just find some other way to let my dogs have fun


I go to places that don't have off leash dogs frequent. (although there are few and far in between with so many irresponsible owners) Like baseball fields, tennis courts or basketball courts. Places that are fenced in but not actual dog parks. you might still have others who go there with dogs, so you ALWAYS have to be aware and on guard. My dogs DA kicked in at 9 months when a dog ran up to him when I could not get the owners attention to recall their dog and he reacted. It can kick in from 10 months to 3 years, but you can NEVER really tell. It could happen at ANY age.


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I've only had Mya getting some good exercise in one other time. But it was hiking up a mountain and it was sooo physically demanding for me... lol. But I think we might do it next weekend. I'm still new to the area and not entirely sure where there are parks and dog friendly areas. Well parks in the not so bad areas are.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Great pics!! I love the little blue and white pup  Try not to get offended when people point this stuff out to you  You have to have a thick skin owning this breed and always be prepared for the unexpected. You have 2 pits and/or pit mixes?? Do you have crates? At some point you may have to crate and rotate them. These dogs were bred to fight so don't always expect your dogs to get along with eachother as they grow and mature. Others who have been on here started out with that mentality and ended up coming home to a blood bath and a dead dog. Just take precautions and you will be okay. Plus, you have GP and all of us to help you through and be the best owner you can possibly be


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I've only got two. Mya who is Pit/Lab... to the best guess of the vet. And Akasha who I guess it technically American Bully. The little brown dog is my friends and he's something random lol. We are thinking he's Boxer and American Bulldog. He's a little on the special side. We think he's crosseyed lol.

We've technically got 2 crates... the old one Mya decided to chew a hole through so we bought a new one and haven't thrown the old one away yet. But we try to take them everywhere we go if we can. Mya has anxiety and doesn't like to be left alone... she's the reason I got high from paint fumes today lol, painting the bathroom she tore up before we could afford a new kennel.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

chevy you should read this thread http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/38468-bad-night-walking-dogs.html we thought the same thing as you we knew our dog like the back of our hand, never shows signs of dog aggression, not when he got humped by a male chihuahua not when he gets snapped at by my old german short haired pointer. but when a dog comes running up at him its a WHOLE different ball park, like end of the chain teeth showing gonna rip your throat out. happened on 2 different occasions one in the link above and another when i was living in portland and an american bully tried running up on him. luckily we we're able to avoid fights on both occasions but these dogs want to fight(eventually) its in their blood.

also fix the kennel chicken wire and a staple gun  the wrapp the sharp edges in duct tape.

my favorite place to take our dogs is a tennis court with the 10ft fence and gates that we can tie up with a leash.

good lookin pup


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

Yeah I was thinking of doing that... but the thing is ginourmous and we don't exactly have the room to have two large Crates atm. It doesn't break down like the our new one does...er... did, hubby zip tied it multiple times for some reason. Friggin Jarheads and their zipties and/or duct tape.

Thanks for the compliments, we want Akasha to hurry up and get bigger!! lol. I wonder if fertilizer will help .


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Please read this .. And then never take your dogs back to the dog park. Spread the word Bulldogs or anything mixed with APBT blood does not belong in dog parks ... Nice Pics link below

http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/36349-pitbulls-dog-parks.html


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I FRIGGIN get it already!!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I FRIGGIN get it already!!


Ok well get this .. Drop the attitude people are trying to help you now if you don't want help that's fine but don't get smart with me for providing you factual information when your cute little mutt's kill an innocent dog at one of these parks my dogs take the rap for it. It's a chain reaction so your damn right I am going to say something. This is a public forum if you don't want other's opinions you shouldn't post online you get that?


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I had already said I won't take my dogs to a dog park anymore. The attitude had been long dropped until you brought it back up.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I FRIGGIN get it already!!


man that attitude will get you in trouble here and you have a lot to learn so I suggest you drop the attitude and learn.

If you want to get your dogs some exercise then you can take them out one at a time with a long line and a flirt pole. Go to a park and let the chase the flirt pole and you still have them on leash on the long line. You do know even though your dogs are nice now that does not mean they will continue to get along. The chances they will not get along as the puppy matures is very high with this breed so you can imagine why we are warning you about a dog park. The people who left the park because a pit bull came in are the smart since pit bull and pit bull mixes do not belong in dog parks. They are a DA breed and when you stop respecting that is when they can shock you. There has been many member who have learned the hard way when their pit bull turns on and hurts another dog or kills them. This is from a dog who never show DA before and why you cannot trust them not to fight. You are newer to the breed so the the "tude" and learn from those with experience.



Sadie said:


> Ok well get this .. Drop the attitude people are trying to help you now if you don't want help that's fine but don't get smart with me for providing you factual information when your cute little mutt's kill an innocent dog at one of these parks my dogs take the rap for it. It's a chain reaction so your damn right I am going to say something. This is a public forum if you don't want other's opinions you shouldn't post online you get that?


:goodpost:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I had already said I won't take my dogs to a dog park anymore. The attitude had been long dropped until you brought it back up.


I provided you with a link that explains why these dogs do not belong in dog parks so that you can see for yourself that it's not just the members here telling you not to take them. You should be grateful to the people here who are trying to help you become a better more responsible owner. Your crappy attitude has nothing to do with me I am telling you that it won't fly on this forum though. So you can get upset all you want but next time you post something on an online forum you better understand that other's are entitled to respond and if that bothers you than do not post period. This thread is open for anyone to comment you do not dictate who can or can't post and when they should stop posting.


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I accepted the help and said not to take my dog to a dog park again.

The link had already been provided and I read it


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I accepted the help and said not to take my dog to a dog park again.
> 
> The link had already been provided and I read it


Great well it got provided again either read it again or don't regardless though this thread is open for all to comment and as long as it remains an open thread other members here are entitled to comment. So lose the attitude and you will have no problems here.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

You need to understand that sometimes people dont read an entire thread before posting, i don't always and often you will get repeat answers. If you get 5 of the same answer just skip over the ones that say the same thing if youve already commented on one, no need to get an attitude with someone just because they may have said the same thing someone else has.

We are all extremely passionate here and not everyone has the same idea as the next person, when i first came here i came on way too strong for just about everyone.. Everyone hated me..well most disliked me and a few hated. lmfao Your not going to please everyone.

When someone that doesn't have the experience others do with this breed owns a "pit bull" we tend to come on hard if we see things that aren't right. Theres a reason for this, theres no reason for people to make careless decisions with this breed. Not everyone needs to own this type of dog so we are quick to get the right information out there to be sure not only you do right by the dog, but also so your mistake doesn't cost others in your area the right to own this breed.

I get it, you understand however the worst thing you can do is act like you know everything if in reality you don't. People who have commented on this thread combined probably have close to 100 years of experience if not more if you add up the years we all have owned the APBT or other breeds with similar temperament. The best thing you can do is keep cool and soak up the knowledge.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> You do know even though your dogs are nice now that does not mean they will continue to get along. The chances they will not get along as the puppy matures is very high with this breed so you can imagine why we are warning you about a dog park. The people who left the park because a pit bull came in are the smart since pit bull and pit bull mixes do not belong in dog parks. They are a DA breed and when you stop respecting that is when they can shock you. There has been many member who have learned the hard way when their pit bull turns on and hurts another dog or kills them. This is from a dog who never show DA before and why you cannot trust them not to fight.


back when i was still in high school like my sophmore year we had a neighbor that had 2 pit bulls they were more pet bulls and man biters that didnt like people but thats besides the point. anyways he had two one of em was like 3 years old than the other dogs got along fine never heard anything bad outta em they loved each other then one day one of em just snapped and they went at it, owner didnt really think anything of it just kinda separated em for a week then they got back together and went at it again this time it was bad crows smelled the carnage and they were every where luckily the dogs got separated before any serious serious damage was done other than stiches and holes in the neck he ended up having to take one of the to his moms house because he couldnt keep both of em any more.

might as well say the stuff that every one else has taught me "always expect a bulldog to fight, its what they were bred to do", and "no pit bull ever died from not having a dog friend"


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm sorry. I kinda go off when things are repeated. I even go off on my husband. I'm not sure if its like a legitimate issue, related to OCD or something, or if its just cause I'm weird. Ever since I got preggo and had my son its been worse. My emotions just go out of control sometimes. I am so sorry.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I'm sorry. I kinda go off when things are repeated. I even go off on my husband. I'm not sure if its like a legitimate issue, related to OCD or something, or if its just cause I'm weird. Ever since I got preggo and had my son its been worse. My emotions just go out of control sometimes. I am so sorry.


Thank You because I didn't even read this entire thread I read the title and that's it. A lot of times people may skim through threads and don't catch every little thing. I didn't see that Ames had posted the link until you mentioned it was posted I went back to look myself. Like I said I was only trying to help which is what this forum is for. I appreciate the apology.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I'm sorry. I kinda go off when things are repeated. I even go off on my husband. I'm not sure if its like a legitimate issue, related to OCD or something, or if its just cause I'm weird. Ever since I got preggo and had my son its been worse. My emotions just go out of control sometimes. I am so sorry.


No need to really apologize even though i know its appreciated. You should be able to relax here, some people will get on your nerves other will hate you but over all if you act mature, open to being wrong, voice when being right and willing to accept knowledge when given hardly anyone is going to cut you a new one.

Like i said, you'll get the same responses probably quite often when posting a thread, not always but happens a good bit. If it annoys you just keep your cool and don't reply, at least right then. No one knows how your feeling outside of reading your replies so if you really want to stay here thats probably something worth keeping.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

LMAO see! pretty much same post. hahah


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

KMdogs said:


> LMAO see! pretty much same post. hahah


Well you know some of us think alike LOL ... I don't always read an entire thread I already knew by the title what needed to be said LOL


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I needed to apologize, I was in the wrong and realized this eventually. I had stress building up all day and I think I'm getting sick, I have hardly eaten all day, and I think that was just "the final straw". I feel better now... I might have had a little bit of a cry... like I said, emotions are all messed up. I have no idea why I cried..., no wait, I do, cause I'm a sissy .

... I just realized I just told a bunch of random people that I have issues... -.- lol


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I accepted the help and said not to take my dog to a dog park again.
> 
> The link had already been provided and I read it


youre not allowed to defend yourself against the moderators. its their forum and they can do w/e they want.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

zohawn said:


> youre not allowed to defend yourself against the moderators. its their forum and they can do w/e they want.


Is that sarcasm or are you serious? As long as you are respectful you have a right to your opinion.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Is that sarcasm or are you serious? As long as you are respectful you have a right to your opinion.


i was being serious. this forum is akin to some ones house. their way or the highway. nothing wrong with it.

what i like about vbulletin is you can ignore people and their post wont show up when you read the thread. get offended? no problem, ignore them.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

zohawn said:


> i was being serious. this forum is akin to some ones house. their way or the highway. nothing wrong with it.
> 
> what i like about vbulletin is you can ignore people and their post wont show up when you read the thread. get offended? no problem, ignore them.


before what said gets twisted that was advice to the OP


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

Hey look... he's right. I ignored him and now his posts aren't there!  lol

On a side note... anyone know why I would have this awesomely excruciating pain in the center of my upper stomach and be throwing up. Well I've only thrown up once so far but I have a feeling it may happen again. And no its not morning sickness! At least I'm staying positive that it isn't lol.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> Hey look... he's right. I ignored him and now his posts aren't there! lol
> 
> On a side note... anyone know why I would have this awesomely excruciating pain in the center of my upper stomach and be throwing up. Well I've only thrown up once so far but I have a feeling it may happen again. And no its not morning sickness! At least I'm staying positive that it isn't lol.


lol if it is morning sickness let me bet the fist to say congratulations :clap:


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

Shhhhhh!!! I'm convincing myself its not morning sickness


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Glad you decided to stay and enjoy the place. I would have gotten mad if people repeated the same thing to me 5 times as well.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

NO DOG PARK! (hahaha) I kid I kid!

But seriously, when I was new to the breed I took Bruno to the dog park 2 times. Each time he got bit by another dog. Ya live ya learn kinda thing.

As for yours pups, they sure are cute!


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

OVERKILL...BUT HAD TO SHARE MY STORY TOO! LOL

i took my red nose out to da park once and told myself dat she will b cool n love it...

here comes a beautiful blue 10mnth pup and they r running around like crazy lovin life...

until they got tired my dog lied down on da grass to rest, da blue went to sniff my dog in her "special place"....

next thing u know the owner of the blue was hosing down his dogs bloody neck from da bite....

the dog was ok, just got bit but i was able to break them up b4 it got worst... but it happens so fast...jus bcareful 

BEAUTIFUL DOGS U HAVE BTW!!!!


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> Shhhhhh!!! I'm convincing myself its not morning sickness


Please be morning sickness. We need more pregnant people on the forum. Maybe not to many or its going to get too hormonal haha.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

MISSAPBT said:


> Please be morning sickness. We need more pregnant people on the forum. Maybe not to many or its going to get too hormonal haha.


lol where were all these pitchix when i was single is wat im asking myself!!

?????????? lol


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

MISSAPBT said:


> Please be morning sickness. We need more pregnant people on the forum. Maybe not to many or its going to get too hormonal haha.


Noooo!!! lol. I wasn't too hormonal when I was preggo... of course things change. I could be a hormonal mess next time lol.

But I'm almost positive this isn't Morning sickness... of course making the hubby go get a test wouldn't be a bad idea lol.


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## aprilortego (Aug 23, 2010)

LOL Add one more tothe preg. list, we are expecting our 2nd daughter in November


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