# Paws with Power Kennel-Have you heard of them?



## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

They are a local Kennel here in AZ, A buddy of mine got a pup from them last year from their Storm X Sargent breeding. I was just currious to hear what you guys think of this kennel? Their main site is Paws With Power We are American Pitbull Terrier and Bullie Breeders and Trainers and the breeding of my friends dog is Paws With Power Storm X Sargent


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I like how there bullys are actually registered with the ABKC, I cant comment much on the dogs Ilike some of there heads but most pictures are action shots, or laying down makes it really hard to see the conformation and size of the dogs themselves. that pup missy last one on the female page I dont like the looks of her and they over stacked her. I wouldnt pick a pup from them based on the pictures there , just not enough to show me what they are about. JMO
also what are the gator lines? is that a apbt line? havent heard of it would like more info if someone is familiar with that line , that dog was very handsome I think it was thunder, atleast what I could see of him.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I don't see any pedigrees listed, nor do I see any titles (show wins) So I don't think much of them.  Looks like they are just breeding to be breeding..... and making money.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I haven't finished looking and they don't have much information on their site.

I dislike that they used "XXL" and talked about how big around their heads are. I don't see any titles on their dog, "PR" is nothing special really. I don't see anything about health testing. I'd also like to know how frequently they breed.

If they're service quality dogs, they could at least get CGC titles.

Like angelbaby said, there aren't really any pictures that you can tell structure in. They don't have much information on the individual dogs from what I saw.

But that's just my opinion.



Edit: Also, what did your friend have to do to acquire a puppy? Did he get the pup with a contract, did the breeders have him come to them and see their dogs?


But I also don't like that they don't have posts about their activity with their dogs, participating in shows, sports, etc.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I extremely doubt that Storm is full Colby....


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

They said they had a nice pedigree, but I'd like to see a lot more Champion titles.

Scroll down for ped on these two dogs.
Paws With Power Privet X Rowdy

Edit: Just realized, that dog Rowdy, the one with more Razor's Edge in his pedigree, isn't from their kennel. The female is, for those who look at the link.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

the peds shown dont look complete to me, it looks like the 6-9 generation of one of my dogs ped. doesnt really show the 1st few generations of the ped , when the big names are that far back it doesnt make your dog a "good' ped dog alot of those dogs where bred to alot of dogs and have hundreds of offspring you see alot of those names like buckshot and watuka spirit and stuff on thousands of peds.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

A long time ago a older man once said to me: ” Good things are seldom cheap and cheap things are seldom good”
'
lol love that quote they have on the sales page , is this how they justify prices? what do they ask for there dogs?


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

Celestial88 said:


> Edit: Also, what did your friend have to do to acquire a puppy? Did he get the pup with a contract, did the breeders have him come to them and see their dogs?


My buddy was looking up Arizona kennels online and ran accross this one. He got his pup for $300. The breeder stated that they were only that cheap for the week since it was Sargents (Sire) First Breeding. Ill post some more pics of Sarg. here soon. He was really BIG lol


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

Here are pics of Sire, Sargent. 

























Here are some of my Friends dog, he's about 1yr old


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

someone didnt cull properly.. or they are misinformed.. 
Paws With Power PWP Storm

All Colby... I've seen pure red nosed colby dogs and they are always from someone other than Colby Family Dogs. Colby culled anything with a red nose  and he used a good amount of same stock. Yeah I know its a chocolate but thats still considered red.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> someone didnt cull properly.. or they are misinformed..
> Paws With Power PWP Storm
> 
> All Colby... I've seen pure red nosed colby dogs and they are always from someone other than Colby Family Dogs. Colby culled anything with a red nose  and he used a good amount of same stock. Yeah I know its a chocolate but thats still considered red.


DANGIT Stan! It says I have to spred the love before giving you reputation again! :goodpost::goodpost:

And to the OP, you said the pups were only 300 for the week? And because it was the sire's first litter.... hahaha I bet they just could not get rid of the pups because their original price was too high so they were getting desperate.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> DANGIT Stan! It says I have to spred the love before giving you reputation again! :goodpost::goodpost:
> .


ditto....... :rofl:


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

Shes Got Heart said:


> And to the OP, you said the pups were only 300 for the week? And because it was the sire's first litter.... hahaha I bet they just could not get rid of the pups because their original price was too high so they were getting desperate.


That is probably true, i dont remember how much the original price was other than for that week.


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

Sargent was only 1.5yrs old at the time of the pics and breeding. 

I didnt get to really see their whole set up, she had the pups in the front of her house as well as the mom and dad.


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

sire /dam without titles = why bother ...
those kennels are always the ones that want a large sum for pups and find poop to praise in thier dogs like big heads ...why the hell do i want a dog with a head so big it cant keep it off the ground? i can imagine holes in drywall when head-inertia keeps them from stopping in time ....


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## 00 S/C Lightning (Apr 7, 2010)

Another garbage kennel that needs to sell garbage to pay bills for this month


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

Hi This is Ida from Paws With Power. I found this post. I want to clear up things. The pup was cheap because it was the last one left and just had ABKC papers. It is a low grade pedigree. I do show or weight pull my dogs. They do have ribons , Public access and other temperment test. I health test and contracts on all my pups and dogs. I dont just breed to breed! You may not know the lines if you did you would know that the dogs in the pedigrees are show dogs or weight pulling. I have produced many show dos, weight pullers and service dogs. Come see my dogs you will not find any faults to them or temperment problems. I am not the best pitcher taker! I dont make money on my dogs it gose back into them or my service dog program. My female only breed 1 time a year and my males only 3 times in there whole life!
All mosted all my dogs are american pit bull terriers 'pr' Ukc papered and ABKC. Thunder and storm are AAPBA and ABKC only so there pups are cheaper.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

i applaude you for the health testing but there are some things brought up that i dont think were addressed right, the "ribbons ' your dogs win are they titles? cause alot of dogs can win ribbons its titles that are more meaningful. Just because a dog is a show dog persay doesnt make it a breeding dog , and to say you wont find faults in your dogs ihave yet to see and people who judge dogs have told me they are even yet to see a dog without faults. if the dog is registered with ABKC it is not a pitbull terrier it is an american bully. i didnt see any harsh bashing on your kennel someone asked for an opinion based on what we saw on the kennel page, maybe its a new site? it is lacking some info i would have loved to see some plain shots of the dogs from the front and side, nothing special or anything just pictures where we could have seen the structures a bit better. Also the health testing is a big plus but i didnt see much about that on there either , you should be proud you do this so many more kennels need to follow this do you do OFA or Penn hip? and what have the results been? And the pedigrees would have been nice to see i clicked on the dogs pictures but said the page could not be found, maybe under construction? ido like some of your dogs as stated in the previous post , but just the lack of info on there is what most were responding too. Welcome to the forum by the way , its nice you have come to reply to this yourself and maybe we can get answers directly from the source now rather then through a middle man :}


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Just curious, what type of health testing do you do? Have you titled any dogs?


^What Angelbaby said.


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

it is awsome that you showed up to back up your dogs ! on a side note , function is as important as form here ... just something to keep in mind.


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

pawswithpower said:


> Hi This is Ida from Paws With Power. I found this post. I want to clear up things. The pup was cheap because it was the last one left and just had ABKC papers. It is a low grade pedigree. I do show or weight pull my dogs. They do have ribons , Public access and other temperment test. I health test and contracts on all my pups and dogs. I dont just breed to breed! You may not know the lines if you did you would know that the dogs in the pedigrees are show dogs or weight pulling. I have produced many show dos, weight pullers and service dogs. Come see my dogs you will not find any faults to them or temperment problems. I am not the best pitcher taker! I dont make money on my dogs it gose back into them or my service dog program. My female only breed 1 time a year and my males only 3 times in there whole life!
> All mosted all my dogs are american pit bull terriers 'pr' Ukc papered and ABKC. Thunder and storm are AAPBA and ABKC only so there pups are cheaper.


Every dog that is registered with ukc is potentially a show dog ... titles make dogs when you get in deep. It really the only legal measure of a dog thats readily avail. 
service dogs are awsome tho!


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I would like to see the ped on your full Colby dog, and I'd like to ask what your goal is in breeding that dog to dogs who will be registered as American Bullies with the ABKC.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

pawswithpower said:


> Hi This is Ida from Paws With Power. I found this post. I want to clear up things. The pup was cheap because it was the last one left and just had ABKC papers. It is a low grade pedigree. I do show or weight pull my dogs. They do have ribons , Public access and other temperment test. I health test and contracts on all my pups and dogs. I dont just breed to breed! You may not know the lines if you did you would know that the dogs in the pedigrees are show dogs or weight pulling. I have produced many show dos, weight pullers and service dogs. Come see my dogs you will not find any faults to them or temperment problems. I am not the best pitcher taker! I dont make money on my dogs it gose back into them or my service dog program. My female only breed 1 time a year and my males only 3 times in there whole life!
> All mosted all my dogs are american pit bull terriers 'pr' Ukc papered and ABKC. Thunder and storm are AAPBA and ABKC only so there pups are cheaper.


Red nosed colby supposed to be pure colby.. first fault.. I wont touch the APBT ... Bully .. situation cause taking a ABKC registered dog to a pure Colby that is red nosed .. Not saying the genes not there saying its not there unless someone other than colby bred the dog.. then it still is a fault for the Colby strain..

Didnt you speak against linebreeding practices on your site? Scatterbred APBTs are not exactly a common practice for champions but make good outcrosses for a tight niched strain.

Generally advertising pups on here doesnt get the best responces unless you've went through all the channels and even then.. its iffy.. No Peddlers.. No BYBs.. Probably would have better success introducing yourself .. maybe a dog or two.. ya know?

Most kennels have faults and other than the men who have family strains of dogs since the time it all started then breeders have more faults than they'd like to admit to.. The point is to breed the faults out, which takes inline and line breeding. Yeah dips who just stack peds and dont cull or pay attention to what they are doing long term are no better. ..

Just cause someone works their dogs doesnt make them working dogs... I see show dogs that are well trained and well excercised with a great advocate of the breed in general.. I dont see a legacy of working dogs in the peds. Like I said; the peddler entry just crawls all over peeps on here and a hello heres my dog or dogs and their titles .. probably would have done you better service. Many of us love to clown the idea of paying more than 5 to 8 hundred on a dog. JFYI..

...


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

Ok, I do show and have chams. My main goal is to breed for Service Dogs. I dont Sale many dogs. I dont wait people buying my dogs just because they are chams. All my dogs are UKC papered. Not Bully they show in the Clasice or standered class in the ABKC . They look for what the real APBT should look like. Storm and Thunder are both old school lines (reds). I just did not send in there UKC papers when they where young and by the time I went to send them in they where not readable and my grandpa passed away 4ms before so I put them in the ABKC. Yes I do hip and joint test. They have to pass with flying colors before I breed them. I breed for Service Dogs so They have to be healthy. Yes my webpage is new and is being worked on right now. I dont know what type of pitchers to take or what all to put on the site. Webpage is new to me. My family been breeding for over 50 years and we dont care if the lines are diffrent because we want to breed with overall good dogs. A good dog brings more to a table than a dog that just gits breed because it is from the same line. We cant help the breed if we breed the same this over and over because we are not changing anything if we breed that way. I am not trying to sell pups on here I was saying come look at my kennel first before saying stuff. My dogs do work I am disabled so is my son. They work for us. They go to doctor appointments and other places as helper dogs(Service Dogs). Every dog I have is trained or in training to be one. I hope I answered everyones questions If not please let me know.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

Sorry bad spelling champs


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

spelling is fine lol mine usually is horrible on here too ,allmy bullys are ukc registered as well its just the way they stillhave registered ancestors so they can be but it doesnt make them apbt they are american bullys. If you show in classic and standard class in ABKC then they are american bully { nothing to even be upset about thats my preference in breed as well} they dont judge according tothe apbt standard they judge based on the abkc standard for american bully.if your dog was more apbt standard you most likely wouldnt place in a abkc show. I think what alot of people who own apbt's are upset about is american bully breeders advertising there dogs as apbt's when in fact they arent. im sure someone can come on here and post pictures of there apbt and the difference between the 2 can be seen. Working dogs are great and love seeing bullys in this line of work. Im trying to get the stuff in order to dotherapy work at the elderly homes with my girl luna ,dogs canbring people so much joy and alot more help mentally and emotionally then most think they can. would love to see more pictures of your dogs.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Don't sale many dogs?


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I have had juges tell me from ADBA that my dogs are true APBTS and same with the UKC. I have entered General in ABKC,UKC and ADBA shows and took home 1st place out of many dogs in the ring(6 plus) even won best of show. Maybe I have been lucky I have had older juges lol. I train most of what I breed and give them to people in need of them at no cost to them. When I do sell puppies or a dog it is to raise money for vest and care of the puppies/dogs that I hand off. I only show and weight pull my dog because it is fun and a hobly of mine. I do not do it to sell them. If you live close to mesa, az come and see them maybe you will see that storm, thunder, general, missy, are APBTs Sassy, boomer are amstaffs and privet is APBT/ amstaff. I dont own a "ABKC" bullie even the people on the AZ Bullie Board will tell you that. They hate my old School Lines and looks. I think it is the way I take the pics of them. I dont use bully the same as everyone. It was what my grandpa called them that. He called them that way before the ABKC came around. as soon as i figure out how to post a pic on here i will.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

sorry about the coby female storm I have. This litter due to drop is her last litter she is having. She is gitting spayed after that. I got her from my grandpa and she is one of the bested dogs I have ever had so I wanted to breed her to my 2 best males I have and pass her gens on and to git my image I want my line to look like.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Do you have any pictures of your dogs stacked?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Ok lets be real here...... Your dogs do not fit the ADBA standard and are more bullies than APBT's. just because you have UKC papers does not mean you have a true APBT. No your dogs do not look like what a true APBT should look like they have horrible fronts on some and are way over done. Even ABKC standard you have faults going on on your dogs. 
What health testing have you done on your dogs?

As far as service dogs go that is good that the dogs work for you but when you are breeding for working dogs of any kind you need to look at your dogs structure and understand that bad fronts like that will shorten the working ability of the dog. Unfortunately many people pass dogs off as service dogs when they have had very little training. Their are no federal guide lines that say you have to have a certified service dog and it is a shame. You can call any dog a service dog and it does not even have to have special training. It always puts me on alert when I see people say they have services dogs because many times it is a fraud. I do not know how legit your dogs are and if they really do serve a purpose that is great I am just talking in general because there are so many fake people "certifying" service dogs right now. I take this to heart as I have worked with service dogs for years and trained them for many years and run into countless frauds.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

pawswithpower said:


> I have had juges tell me from ADBA that my dogs are true APBTS and same with the UKC. I have entered General in ABKC,UKC and ADBA shows and took home 1st place out of many dogs in the ring(6 plus) even won best of show. Maybe I have been lucky I have had older juges lol. I train most of what I breed and give them to people in need of them at no cost to them. When I do sell puppies or a dog it is to raise money for vest and care of the puppies/dogs that I hand off. I only show and weight pull my dog because it is fun and a hobly of mine. I do not do it to sell them. If you live close to mesa, az come and see them maybe you will see that storm, thunder, general, missy, are APBTs Sassy, boomer are amstaffs and privet is APBT/ amstaff. I dont own a "ABKC" bullie even the people on the AZ Bullie Board will tell you that. They hate my old School Lines and looks. I think it is the way I take the pics of them. I dont use bully the same as everyone. It was what my grandpa called them that. He called them that way before the ABKC came around. as soon as i figure out how to post a pic on here i will.


Is this a joke? First, if you did not send in their UKC papers then you can NOT register with the ABKC without them. In order to register with the ABKC you must have either UKC, ADBA, or AKC papers, unless you did some shady ish. YOU MAKE NO SENSE! If you don't own an ABKC bully then why show ABKC? You have placed first in the ABKC? Which show was this?* Your dog General is an AMERICAN BULLY. He goes back to Knuckles, Paddington, Short Shot, Diamond as well as Certified, Gottyline. HE IS AN AMERICAN BULLY. BTW there is no such thing as an XXL dog. You aren't running old school lines on your bully. He has the same blood in his ped as every other Am Bully out there. *


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Privet, General, and Major are all AMERICAN BULLIES


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

> All my dogs are UKC papered. Not Bully they show in the Clasice or standered class in the ABKC . They look for what the real APBT should look like. Storm and Thunder are both old school lines (reds). I just did not send in there UKC papers when they where young and by the time I went to send them in they where not readable and my grandpa passed away 4ms before so I put them in the ABKC. Yes I do hip and joint test. They have to pass with flying colors before I breed the.


FYI the ABKC looks for what the AMERICAN BULLY looks like as that was the whole purpose of creating the ABKC. Classic Class in the ABKC means that while they look similar to a UKC dog, they still have that "bully" look, substance if you will. We do have a section called Bullies 101. You should check it out and get your facts straight.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks Lauren I did not even look at the peds just the pictures and you can tell they are AM bullies and poorly structured at that. PLEASE do not call them APBT's becuase they are not. These are REAL gamebred APBT's see the difference? You said you have Ch's which dog and which registry do you have Ch's from? I think you do not know what you really have and are trying to slow smoke up our rears. You can only fool the uneducated public who does not know better but here where we know these dogs I just see a Back Yard Breeder trying to make a buck.

Barca 12 months old Redboy/Jocko/Eli he is only 48lbs right now and 18" tall

















Siren the dam to Barca Redboy/Jocko she weighs 35lbs an 17 3/4" tall, I think she finished her ADBA CH this weekend and is almost finished in UKC









Tempest 48lbs and 19" tall









These are REAL APBT's do you see the difference?


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I have a goal in my mind what i want my dogs to be and look like.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm so glad I finally get to use this.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> Thanks Lauren I did not even look at the peds just the pictures and you can tell they are AM bullies and poorly structured at that. PLEASE do not call them APBT's becuase they are not. These are REAL gamebred APBT's see the difference? You said you have Ch's which dog and which registry do you have Ch's from? I think you do not know what you really have and are trying to slow smoke up our rears. You can only fool the uneducated public who does not know better but here where we know these dogs I just see a Back Yard Breeder trying to make a buck.
> 
> Barca 12 months old Redboy/Jocko/Eli he is only 48lbs right now and 18" tall
> 
> ...


Yupp those are some real APBTs! It is obvious this person has no idea WTH they have. So which dogs have you had hips and elbows certified on? I'd like to see the results.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

pawswithpower said:


> I have a goal in my mind what i want my dogs to be and look like.


So your not going to answer any of the questions we asked? If you are going to try and call yourself a breeder then you need to know what your breeding. Just because you have an idea or goal of what you want your dogs to look like does not mean it fits the breed standard. Also were you lying about what you said about your dogs being champs and doing health testing? you came here to defend your dogs and kennel so why are you now back peddling?


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

pawswithpower said:


> I have a goal in my mind what i want my dogs to be and look like.


How is that? You don't even know what kind of dogs you have. Who breeds dogs just to "give" them to people but also "sales" (lol wow) puppies to pay for the "dog bills"


> We only sell or give papered dogs!


So you still never answered about the ABKC registered because I'd love to know how you got registered without the UKC.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> I'm so glad I finally get to use this.


lmmfao @ you Scott! Love it!!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Guess she went to bed. lol


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Just wanted to say, :clap:


Beautiful dogs by the way, I really like Barca.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks that whole litter came out great I was very pleased! back to the OP I want to say I do not really like going after people like this but if you are going to come on here at try to BS us on your dogs then you should be able to stand up for yourself and answer the questions. Had this BYB not come on here I probably would not have said anything but since they came in to try and defend their kennel then talk out their butt, that I have a problem with.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

Missy, storm looks like the females storms 19-20" tall and 67(fat) and 55 lean missy is now 18" and 48 LBs at most. Thunder is 18-19" fat 75 lean 65LBs The frounts are strat! Missy is starting to show in the ukc and they said she can make it to the top! Genral and Major has shown in the ukc ring and has got first and secound place in Ks. I would go to more but I have not seen any here yet. They have also showed in ADBA shows to. they are bothers about 18" tall and 60-70 lbs at most. I do not breed for money! If I did I would breed my toy dogs(yorkies,boston and pugs) and sell them. My dogs git the best food, love and care! They may have bullies in the peds but they did not take after them. If you breed you know the pups can take after anyone in the gen pool. Missy is out of the first part of the razor edge line before they made them short and big. I know for sure my storm and thunder are gamebreed! they where from my grandpals yard I hate to say this he fight and showed them for years! Like I said you need to see them. Maybe I am gitting the wrong angle on my pitchers or some thing. for example thunders chest from frount leg to frount leg is only about 8" storm and missy is smaller. Even kennels that breed the bullies say they are game. I was at the abkc show last weekend and a APBT resque said they are game and I had the only true APBT there. We can argue all day and night on this. Until you see them in person you dont know. Just like I cant say what you have unless I see them. Pitchers can alway miss tell you should know that. I have had many Champs both in ADBA, AKC and UKC. So I do know what they look like depending on the kennel club. Now I am trying the ABKC in Champs. I have been doing this for 15 years pluse and I am a trainer to. My first set of service dogs are still working to day and the vets say the are in very good shape! They are over 10yrs now! The abkc papered thunder and storm because I had proff that my grandpa died and that the papers could not be read on the back but the frount was not to bad and still be read they took the parents info and that and papered them. Thats how I got them ABKC. That was years ago.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

You must breed for money! I hand over at lest 30 dogs a year to people in need! I pay over 20,000 a year to train and care for those dogs! The money on the pups I sell here and there dont cover 25% of that! My dogs dont live in kennels my puppies are born in my hand in my room! All dogs and puppies git at lest 4 hours a day of one on one time! I plain my breeding out 2 years a head of time and I do not breed every dog I have! I have health garentee(for life not 2 yrs like most), contracts and I have to see where the pups go that I sell and they have to send pics every 6 ms and I will take back any dog if they do not fallow it! most the puppys are fixed unless they are going to be shown! I am far from a BYB !! Plus I adopt APBTs them from pounds to! I have also brook many BSL and been on the news with them(good).What do you do? By the way I have never had a dog brought back!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

pawswithpower said:


> Missy, storm looks like the females storms 19-20" tall and 67(fat) and 55 lean missy is now 18" and 48 LBs at most. Thunder is 18-19" fat 75 lean 65LBs The frounts are strat! Missy is starting to show in the ukc and they said she can make it to the top! Genral and Major has shown in the ukc ring and has got first and secound place in Ks. I would go to more but I have not seen any here yet. They have also showed in ADBA shows to. they are bothers about 18" tall and 60-70 lbs at most. I do not breed for money! If I did I would breed my toy dogs(yorkies,boston and pugs) and sell them. My dogs git the best food, love and care! They may have bullies in the peds but they did not take after them. If you breed you know the pups can take after anyone in the gen pool. Missy is out of the first part of the razor edge line before they made them short and big. I know for sure my storm and thunder are gamebreed! they where from my grandpals yard I hate to say this he fight and showed them for years! Like I said you need to see them. Maybe I am gitting the wrong angle on my pitchers or some thing. for example thunders chest from frount leg to frount leg is only about 8" storm and missy is smaller. Even kennels that breed the bullies say they are game. I was at the abkc show last weekend and a APBT resque said they are game and I had the only true APBT there. We can argue all day and night on this. Until you see them in person you dont know. Just like I cant say what you have unless I see them. Pitchers can alway miss tell you should know that. I have had many Champs both in ADBA, AKC and UKC. So I do know what they look like depending on the kennel club. Now I am trying the ABKC in Champs. I have been doing this for 15 years pluse and I am a trainer to. My first set of service dogs are still working to day and the vets say the are in very good shape! They are over 10yrs now! The abkc papered thunder and storm because I had proff that my grandpa died and that the papers could not be read on the back but the frount was not to bad and still be read they took the parents info and that and papered them. Thats how I got them ABKC. That was years ago.


What are the peds on your dogs? You say they are gamebred but where is the pedigrees? You also say your dogs are game..... Your dogs are only game if you have fought them and they proved themselves in the box.... Now I know you do not have game dogs so please watch what your talking about.

I still think you do not know what your talking about it is very obvious by how you are talking how you are spelling everything makes me think you are not that educated on this breed. You may have had them for years but it does not mean you know what your doing. If your a dog trainer what accomplishments do you have? and what health tests have you done? Your still dancing around the questions that are being asked. And yes your dogs have horrible fronts it is on the pictures on your website that you have posted of your dogs. They are easty/westy in the front meaning the feet point in different directions and yes over time that gets worse and breaks down. 
Your website says you have XXL dogs but yet you say they are small, I'm confused on what you have. You do know there is no such thing as an XXL right?

Also just so you can look a little more professional and not so much like a back yard breeder you might want to spell check your website.
Pitchers are things like pitchers of water or a pitcher on a baseball team. Pictures is when you take a picture of a dog.

You said "The frounts are strat" the proper English is the "fronts are straight"
I hate to say it but if you really want to learn about dogs and breed the right way then stick around and learn from this site.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Working American Pit Bull Terriers

@pawswithpower. This is who you're talking to.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I don't care if your dog looks like an American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, or Staffordshire Bull Terrier. If their pedigree is American Bullys, then that is what the dog is.

Do you know what "game" means? You can't just look at a dog and say it's game. Have you tested with the OFA?

I'd really like to see some pictures of these dogs stacked.


Dang! You beat me to it.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

pawswithpower said:


> You must breed for money! I hand over at lest 30 dogs a year to people in need! I pay over 20,000 a year to train and care for those dogs! The money on the pups I sell here and there dont cover 25% of that! My dogs dont live in kennels my puppies are born in my hand in my room! All dogs and puppies git at lest 4 hours a day of one on one time! I plain my breeding out 2 years a head of time and I do not breed every dog I have! I have health garentee(for life not 2 yrs like most), contracts and I have to see where the pups go that I sell and they have to send pics every 6 ms and I will take back any dog if they do not fallow it! most the puppys are fixed unless they are going to be shown! I am far from a BYB !! Plus I adopt APBTs them from pounds to! I have also brook many BSL and been on the news with them(good).What do you do? By the way I have never had a dog brought back!


Even though it is a bitter pill to swallow you are what a BYB is. You have no clue what your breeding, the structure on your dogs is horrible and as far as I am concerned you are breeding pets and nothing more. Many dogs can be service dogs it is all on personality and training it has nothing to do with your breeding program if you can call it that. Why would you breed a big bully to your Colby dog? That is what BYB's do. You may consider yourself a good breeder but the fact is your breeding pets not show dogs, not working dogs like for sports, your just breeding pets.
I do a lot for this breed and compete in many sports with my dogs my guess is you have no clue what I do for this breed and if your curious you can look at my website and my dogs. I know what I have and what I breed for.
k9peformancekennels.com


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

aus_staffy said:


> Working American Pit Bull Terriers
> 
> @pawswithpower. This is who you're talking to.


Thanks for putting the link, I guess I do nothing for the breed right? lol

man I just looked at my site and it is really out dated! That will give me motivation to go update it 
And WTH is Sadie? Tara would have blast with this thread!


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I dont have good spelling I have had alot of siezors. Thunder and storm came from fighters many gens of them. Thier feet do go straight they are not east-west it is just the way they look in the pitchers. I will git some better ones this weekend done. Thanks for the spell on the webpage I will have some one correct it.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Trying to get a picture of a proper front...But it is not loading. Nice timing. lol


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

pawswithpower said:


> I dont have good spelling I have had alot of siezors. Thunder and storm came from fighters many gens of them. Thier feet do go straight they are not east-west it is just the way they look in the pitchers. I will git some better ones this weekend done. Thanks for the spell on the webpage I will have some one correct it.


I suck at spelling but that is why there is a spell check feature  until you have pedigrees no one knows if what your saying is true and yet again you do not answer any of the questions being asked.... It's too late to argue I think everyone has seen what they need to see from your posts.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

lol @ years ago it is only six years old so it wasn't THAT long ago..... lol @ your dogs being game. Riiiiight.... I am assuming you meant an APBT rescue person said your dogs were game at a bully show? This just gets better every minute. Trust I know my bully peds and know every dog 9 gens back on your dogs General, Major and Privet and all the dogs 9 gens back on those dogs. YOUR DOGS ARE BULLY. THEY ALL LOOK BULLY. The only one who could maybe pass as a pit bull is Storm. I attend ABKC shows and talk to several ABKC judges on an almost daily basis so please don't tell me what the judges are looking for in the classic and standard classes because what you stated is WRONG; furthermore, if you in fact showed Thunder and Storm ABKC you WOULD NOT BE SHOWING IN CLASSIC OR STANDARD CLASS since you said they are between 18 and 20 inches tall. Standard class height-Females 16 to 19 at withers Males 17-20 at withers. EDIT: looked at their heights again and one would be shown standard and one would have been shown XL.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Thanks for putting the link, I guess I do nothing for the breed right? lol
> 
> man I just looked at my site and it is really out dated! That will give me motivation to go update it
> And WTH is Sadie? Tara would have blast with this thread!


Yeah I haven't seen her today.

OP, we're not actually a bad bunch and I hope you stay around for a while longer. It's just that there are a lot of inconsistencies in what you're telling us. I'm afraid I agree with the general consensus that you shouldn't be breeding these dogs.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> Thanks for putting the link, I guess I do nothing for the breed right? lol
> 
> man I just looked at my site and it is really out dated! That will give me motivation to go update it
> And WTH is Sadie? Tara would have blast with this thread!


She been slacking yo! Leaving me hanging at night. Messed up huh?


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I'd recommend Firefox, it comes with spell check....

I'm dyslexic, yet I can still spell and use proper grammar.

Could we see those "gamebred" pedigrees?


Stick around, you could learn a lot from the knowledge people on this forum possess. Learn more about proper breeding practices from the people here, and you can become a good breeder. I'd stop now, and wait until you are truly educated in the proper practices.

I also still would like to know if you did any tests with the OFA, did you test the elbows, hips, or both? What'd they get?


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I only sell 15 dogs a year! They go to the army, show, breeders and homes. the other puppies I breed become service dogs! To me thats better than sports! Yes they are OFA and My vets test every they can on my dogs! I do not want to breed a bad dog! Why I breed a XXL(22") to my coby was to put more of the real american pit bull terrier in the XXL line. I know there is no such thing but that is what people call them now. The ones I keep out of the litter made great chatch dogs! they had the hight but not so havey! Thats what I wanted!


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Uhm, I'm pretty dang sure the army doesn't allow APBTs.

What are their OFA scores?

Oh and, don't call your dogs something they're not because "That's what people are calling them"
Because those people are ignorant.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Ah I'm over it. People like you just irritate the crap out of me; however, Lisa is right. Stick around and actually learn something about APBTs and American Bullies because it is evident you don't have a clue.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I just took over the webpage and new on the computer as soon as I can I will post it up(peds). Yes hip, elbows, dna,blood and breeding tests


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

THERE IS NO XXL LINE OR CLASS! XXL IS A BYB TERM!


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

....What did they score with the OFA tests? Not a hard question. One answer is rather black and white.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

You are telling me you know more? look it up many APBTs have fought and are fighting for us right now! They where are military symblem in would war 2! washington also use's them in there plice department! Our border patrol uses them!


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I will tell you the score tomorrow I am not at home.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Actually, the army does give service dogs to wounded veterans; however, they sure as heck don't use this person. The US Army [FONT=&quot]actually sought out Ray Certified of Certified Pits (you can read about him in the bully section) to provide them therapy dogs for a pilot program they had instituted called Canines for the Combat Wounded. 
[/FONT]


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I have more than 40 dogs I cant remember everything! If you had sezers you would know! I lose stuff when I have one!


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

there you go again! Look it up!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

lmmfao @ "I'm not home" Typical answer


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

.....World War II was a long time ago.....Pit bulls are banned from military housing, and I haven't found anything about them being used in border control.

Law enforcement, police departments, those are different from the army.


@pitbullmamanatl I know that about the service dogs. I'm just referring to dogs in the battle field, etc. 


OH, and I'd remember my dog's OFA scores....Just sayin' they're extremely simple.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

pawswithpower said:


> there you go again! Look it up!


lmmfao They chose Ray out of all the breeders to provide them sound dogs for their program.








This is Pvt Adrian Garcia and Certified Moukie in their uniforms. Sgt Ron Portillo started a non profit org called Canine for the Combat Wounded. Sgt Portillo came to The CPBA for the correct temperent needed for this task.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Celestial88 said:


> .....World War II was a long time ago.....Pit bulls are banned from military housing, and I haven't found anything about them being used in border control.
> 
> Law enforcement, police departments, those are different from the army.
> 
> ...


Oh, I think this person meant she provides service dogs to the army. Yes, the scores are simple! lol I'm going to just go to the OFA and Penn Hip see what I can dig up since she wants me to look for something so bad.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Oh, I think this person meant she provides service dogs to the army. Yes, the scores are simple! lol I'm going to just go to the OFA and Penn Hip see what I can dig up since she wants me to look for something so bad.


Well she did say,


> You are telling me you know more? look it up many APBTs have fought and are fighting for us right now!


I think "have" in past tense is the keyword.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Celestial88 said:


> Well she did say,
> 
> I think "have" in past tense is the keyword.


lol my bad I didn't read it all the way. My brain hurts.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

It's all good, I completely understand and feel that....I need to go hang out in my quiet place...Sigh, why is it unavailable when I actually need it? lol (Park is flooded.)


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

The Military's Dishonorable Discharge of Pit Bulls | Change.org News
http://www.gopitbull.com/pitbull-articles/9919-pit-bulls-military.html
heres some sites to read I will have more tomorrow. Yes they cant have them as pets but they can be work dogs on base(military dogs).


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

pawswithpower said:


> The Military's Dishonorable Discharge of Pit Bulls | Change.org News
> http://www.gopitbull.com/pitbull-articles/9919-pit-bulls-military.html
> heres some sites to read I will have more tomorrow. Yes they cant have them as pets but they can be work dogs on base(military dogs).


Funny you couldn't tell us that with your own words. lol I saw you searching for military threads 5 min ago. Funny.....


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

....................................................................


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I'll reread those, but from what I saw those are military dogs from a LONG time ago. NOT current. I said above that they have served in war in the past...

....But I shall reread, damn dyslexia makes me miss things sometimes.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Celestial88 said:


> ....................................................................


What do these posts mean?! Did it get edited? Is it a young person thing? Am I too old? Get off my lawn!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Celestial88 said:


> I'll reread those, but from what I saw those are military dogs from a LONG time ago. NOT current. I said above that they have served in war in the past...
> 
> ....But I shall reread, damn dyslexia makes me miss things sometimes.


No need to reread sweetie they are dogs from long ago except with the exception of maybe the first paragraph from that thread on here.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Funny title, "The Military's Dishonorable Discharge of Pit Bulls"

Okay, reread. Interesting with Duke, what exactly does he do? (Honestly curious.)
Does he only stay at the base and train with them, as a mascot? Or does he have a job?


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> What do these posts mean?! Did it get edited? Is it a young person thing? Am I too old? Get off my lawn!


OMG LMMFAO @ get off my lawn! love it.... I think it is a young person thing


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

aus_staffy said:


> What do these posts mean?! Did it get edited? Is it a young person thing? Am I too old? Get off my lawn!


That made me laugh 

It's sort of like a stunned silence thing. *shrugs* My friends rub off on me I guess. lol

Edit: Thanks, I really needed a laugh.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

WTH shrugs? Yeah it is definitely a teenager thing, Scott!  I feel so old


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

Ok I called my husband he said Genral privete and major( said they look to be excellent they are not old enough yet) , storm had Excellent thunder had good. Any thing else you want?


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Oh gosh, I need to refrain! I don't want to twist your brain cells. D:


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

They have to be two before OFA means anything


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

My last post was to pitbullmamanatl

And yes, I know, I'm savin' up for my boy. He gets tested in 2 months. (22 months right now.) 

What was their elbow score?


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

pawswithpower said:


> Ok I called my husband he said Genral privete and major( said they look to be excellent they are not old enough yet) , storm had Excellent thunder had good. Any thing else you want?


they won't certify hips and elbows on a dog before 2 and lol @ "looking excellent". So what did you do look up what OFA was? lol Scores are on the site you know.... I'll check them out


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

lol @ twisting my brain cells. Thanks sweetie! Preeeesh!


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I am going to sleep lol before the doctor come. Ya I am in the hospital.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

no I called my husband he looked on the vet reports. why would I lie ? It would come out at the end. I will let you know tomorrow I am not waking him again


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> they won't certify hips and elbows on a dog before 2 and lol @ "looking excellent". So what did you do look up what OFA was? lol Scores are on the site you know.... I'll check them out


lol! I was looking too, nothing yet. :/


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

No APBTs under "Genral privete" or "major"....Just sayin' 

Also elbows don't come in excellent


Edit: OOPS, I read that wrong....re-searching. They don't "look excellent" you have to have an x-ray for that...and the vet doesn't equal OFA.



Also, you said you're a trainer, and you train your service dogs. Got any videos of training?


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Celestial88 said:


> No APBTs under "Genral privete" or "major"....Just sayin'
> 
> Also elbows don't come in excellent
> 
> ...


No red male APBTs with the name "thunder" with hip tests, same goes for storm.

Okay...Now for much needed sleep!


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## Brutus0124 (Mar 22, 2011)

Two things.
1.) The comment about young people and get off my lawn was hilarious. 
2.) This may be off subject but since I've been around here reading up and learning from you guys it seems I have noticed that all of these crappy byb kennels have reaaly terrible websites. Just an observation but you would think with all the profit they are pulling in off of there "proven" pups they could afford to have a professional build their site.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

In response to Brutus. I really like Webs.com, the layouts are simple and easy to navigate. And it's really easy to edit, it's also free. I used it for my weight pulling club.


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

To P.W.P
Why dont you breed with Sargent (dog i posted pics of on page 1) any longer? When my friend bought a puppy from you last year you stated that he was going to be your main Stud? I dont see him on your site any longer as one of your males, did something happen to him?


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Well this was a fun read , I miss all the fun when I go to bed early and wake up late lol .....LMAO @ get off the lawn lol....I think everyone has done a good job asking questions and not getting answers.I honestly think you have done more damage then good to your rep as a breeder, If you didnt come on here with all your BS this thread would have probably been dead already. I hope you do stick around and do alot of reading and educate yourself on what you actually own. The people on here dont usually jump on people like this but It seems like you are tryna pull one over on people who do know what they are talking about. If you dont know something just ask , there are many on here who have no problem explaining things and giving tips.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Oh, and here, you can look up proper structure and faults.
American Pit Bull Terrier Network Central Body


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## ashes (Jul 7, 2010)

ummmm yea those dogs look AM bully to me... But the thread was fun to read lol reminds me of how stubborn some ppl could be even when evidence was thrown at them. lol Lisa's dogs: REAL APBT's yours: ???? well everyone has told you..


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I dont even know why she being so stubborn there is nothing wrong with am bullys ,alot of people prefer them and love that breed { I one of those people} and obvious she is too if she is defensive about them lol, but I think there is some blindness as to the faults some of her dogs have. Really nothing to get defensive about there are flaws on most everyones dogs but when they are to the extreme as some have them it really makes for traits that you dont want to pass down and maybe shouldnt be used for breeding.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

angelbaby said:


> I dont even know why she being so stubborn there is nothing wrong with am bullys ,alot of people prefer them and love that breed { I one of those people} and obvious she is too if she is defensive about them lol, but I think there is some blindness as to the faults some of her dogs have. Really nothing to get defensive about there are flaws on most everyones dogs but when they are to the extreme as some have them it really makes for traits that you dont want to pass down and maybe shouldnt be used for breeding.


Amusing nonetheless.... Especially about her dogs being called game at a bully show by an APBT rescue. Oh, and for the record it has NOTHING to do with the angles you take your PITCHERS (LMMFAO WOWOWOW... *PICTURES*) at sweetheart. You're dogs are bully plain and simple. I have looked at every one of their peds.... YOU HAVE BULLIES. Accept it and move on because it ain't that serious. I mean if you want "try the ABKC in Champs" (WTH that means) then that should be what you want. So from everything I have gathered and read in this lovely little thread the bottom line is it doesn't matter if you breed your yorkies, pugs, or your bullies you are still a BYB!


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Amusing nonetheless.... Especially about her dogs being called game at a bully show by an APBT rescue. Oh, and for the record it has NOTHING to do with the angles you take your PITCHERS (LMMFAO WOWOWOW... *PICTURES*) at sweetheart. You're dogs are bully plain and simple. I have looked at every one of their peds.... YOU HAVE BULLIES. Accept it and move on because it ain't that serious. I mean if you want "try the ABKC in Champs" (WTH that means) then that should be what you want. So from everything I have gathered and read in this lovely little thread the bottom line is it doesn't matter if you breed your yorkies, pugs, or your bullies you are still a BYB!


:goodpost::goodpost::hammer:


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

True, so true. 
I hate it when you point out one structural fault and people freak. It's to be expected, but as long as it isn't extreme.....But if you're going to say they have no faults then have fun with responses.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

lol if they have no faults then I don't drink whiskey..... and we all know the answer to that one! lmmfao


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

For one you can send in xrays at any age for them to look at. My vet puts everything in there files. There pet names are not on my page just to let you know. Sargent was going to be one of my main dogs but I did not posin proff him soon enough and some one killed him. My webpage should be up and runing in one week. I am a organation and kennel not a back yard breeder or in it for the money. Any one that knows me knows the truth. We have helped other kennels and people out with out wanting anything in return. We all have diffrent thoughts what a American Pit Bull Terrier is and I am going to leave it at that. If anyone wants to come over and see my whole kennel give me a call! I dont no why your friend said He did not see in the house or the other dogs because I show my dogs to everyone that comes to look at any puppy. I believe that when you go to a breeders house you need to see all there dogs so you know if any dog or puppy is sick. In the contract he signed (In the house because I dont do money deals outside for safty resons). To the people that say I have faults tell me what they are after you see them inperson! Other than that anyone can say thing are bad and you just bring more attion to the person! If you see them inperson then you can say they have faults if it is true! You said my dogs pitchers are bad so how can you say anything. Its making you look bad to! We should work together to save the breed not fight on whos dogs is best. My pups come out clean, healthy and I dont over breed. We need to go after the people who breed them with out papers and selling them for 300! They are making more mutts and at what they want they are BYBs! As I said Git to know me and my dogs then you will see I am not a BYB. No one knows about the breed all the way! I know my grandpa had and rasied APBTs most of his life. He passed away at the age of 89! He was a old dogman that showed and teached me alot! He loved the breed! He never had a non papered dog! My kennel was put down on here because they are not to your standered even thow the pitchers where bad and you never saw them! I never put a dog down until I have seen them inperson! If you train or breed you should know that you got to see a dog inperson or every one would just send in pitchers and we would not need a show ring!


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I am a kennel I have non-proffit,breeder and kennel lisons! Do you? Yes this state dont have them but my city, AKC, ADBA and federal dose. The back yard breeder dont care what they breed as long as it makes some cash! They do not tag or care about there dogs or pups. I have goals, chip,tage and care about them all! I only breed papered dogs that have what I want. I only stud my males out to 3 great females then they are done.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

Do you DNA your dogs I do!


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

someone killed your dog?thats sad what happened? and they can base opinions off certain pictures ,you can still see faults in pictures. bottom line is the lines your dogs have in them are am bully lines not apbt. seems youjust arent getting what people are asking and saying and this is just going in circles. You should post in the introduction thread and introduce you and your dogs, maybe If we get to know you a bit better the communication might be a bit smoother. I believe the OFA lists the results of dogs tested with them,can we have the name of your dogs whohave health tested with them? it is something that should be avail to anyone especially someone looking to or has bought a dog fromyou ,the guy who started this thread might find that info useful. unless you have something to hide? it really seems like you do the way you keep dodging questions and info we ask you.


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## ashes (Jul 7, 2010)

_We all have diffrent thoughts what a American Pit Bull Terrier is and I am going to leave it at that_

We all have thoughts what a APBT is??? yes and everyone on here has had the same opinion on your dogs; that they are NOT. And not to mention there is something called a STANDARD and yours do not meet the APBT standard.

How blind could you really be honestly?? Who do you think you're fooling? besides yourself. PPl have told you your dogs peds are Am bullies! LOL And there's nothing wrong with AM bullies my question to you why are you against that?? Why can't you accept that your dogs AREN'T APBT'S???

And from what I have heard DNA isn't always accurate.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Someone should give you a freakin medal since you supposedly have a LICENSE!







Well,this conversation has been going nowhere for a long time so I am closing it. The PICTURES had nothing to do with it. Facts seldom change what someone wants to believe so good luck with your "program" and your American Bullies. Maybe I'll see you at an ABKC show and see them for myself lol I do hope you stick around because you have an astronomical amount to learn about the APBT and American Bully.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

So I have to ask you Paw's if your dog's are game dogs /apbt's then what the hell does that make mine? Because my dog's and your dogs are bred like night and day. And I own APBT's. Check out my dog's pedigree's.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [328954] :: A'S BOGART

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175576] :: AKA X FINALE

I want you to look at my dog's peds carefully and the dogs in them and then look at yours and then come tell me that we have the same breed of dogs.


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

pawswithpower said:


> I dont no why your friend said He did not see in the house or the other dogs because I show my dogs to everyone that comes to look at any puppy. I believe that when you go to a breeders house you need to see all there dogs so you know if any dog or puppy is sick. In the contract he signed (In the house because I dont do money deals outside for safty resons).


@P.WP
I am the original poster and have yet to bash your kennel or talk bad about it, BUT i will call BS on part of your post. I was there with my buddy when he bought his dog from you! I can tell you from my 1st hand experience we were not shown your kennel or any other dogs of yours other than Sarg and Storm (we didnt ask, ill give you that) also, the "contract" he did sign was outside and you did make a cash deal for $300 dollars OUTSIDE. We never went inside, the deal was made right where the pictures are taken (posted on page 1.) Also i read a post that you neutered the dogs before selling, my friends dog was not and he is not into Showing the dog or anything like that.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

My dog's are bred down from game dogs you don't see any show titles in these dogs peds do you? Keep looking I want you to dissect my dogs pedigree's generation after generation all you will see is game dogs. Where in the heck did you get the idea that your dogs and my dogs are bred the same? I didn't see one box dog anywhere in your dog's pedigree's what I saw was bullies and staff's. So I need you to explain to me how your dog's are the same breed as mine? Where are the Rom dog's at? Where are those 1xw's 2xw's 3xw's dogs in your dog's pedigree's. Where are the ch and grch box dogs at? Actual fighting dogs NOT show stopper's???? You come on here and try to tell educated members of both APBT's and American Bullies that you know more than us yet a pedigree tell's the whole story you do NOT own APBT's or Game dogs. You own bullies learn how to read a pedigree and then come talk to me. That's a shame your breeding dog's and you don't even know what the hell your breeding.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

nando87 said:


> @P.WP
> I am the original poster and have yet to bash your kennel or talk bad about it, BUT i will call BS on part of your post. I was there with my buddy when he bought his dog from you! I can tell you from my 1st hand experience we were not shown your kennel or any other dogs of yours other than Sarg and Storm (we didnt ask, ill give you that) also, the "contract" he did sign was outside and you did make a cash deal for $300 dollars OUTSIDE. We never went inside, the deal was made right where the pictures are taken (posted on page 1.) Also i read a post that you neutered the dogs before selling, my friends dog was not and he is not into Showing the dog or anything like that.


Well, that is just interesting! Thank you for that! I am not sure why she even spoke on making cash deal and signing contracts inside her house.... Super extraneous info!


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

Another thing, i wasnt going to bring it up but with you talking about how nice your pups come out can you please explain to me how the dog my friend got from you had a defective tail? It was extremly short and bent. When he asked you about it as a concern you stated that the Sarges was like that when he was younger and he would grow out of it (yes GP he should have known that wasnt true lol!) My friend went ahead on purchased the dog and i can tell you that a year later the tail is still short and bent. I am not speaking on behalf of my friend at all!! He is fine with the fault and loves his puppy. But my point is that you cant tell me non of your dogs have faults when you sold someone a dog that had an obvious fault and lied to them about it. His dog would never be elgible for show! (like i said he doesnt care but its the point im trying to make). Sorry for a rant but it is true your dogs do have faults. I just hope that if another person buys from you, you give legit info about their fault and not miss lead them into thinking its a "puppy stage".


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

nando87 said:


> Another thing, i wasnt going to bring it up but with you talking about how nice your pups come out can you please explain to me how the dog my friend got from you had a defective tail? It was extremly short and bent. When he asked you about it as a concern you stated that the Sarges was like that when he was younger and he would grow out of it (yes GP he should have known that wasnt true lol!) My friend went ahead on purchased the dog and i can tell you that a year later the tail is still short and bent. I am not speaking on behalf of my friend at all!! He is fine with the fault and loves his puppy. But my point is that you cant tell me non of your dogs have faults when you sold someone a dog that had an obvious fault and lied to them about it. His dog would never be elgible for show! (like i said he doesnt care but its the point im trying to make). Sorry for a rant but it is true your dogs do have faults. I just hope that if another person buys from you, you give legit info about their fault and not miss lead them into thinking its a "puppy stage".


So did your friend receive papers with said dog and if so with what registry?


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

you should bring your friend to gp. is he atleast aware that he has a am bully and not the apbt she is claiming them as? Im glad your friend loves his puppy regardless of any defect like a kink tail { there are many great dogs who have kinked tails in and out of the show ring ,so not a biggie especially since he is a pet } Its pretty obvious there will be no educating someone who doesnt want to learn but maybe we can help fix any BS she passed on to a prior buyer.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Wow! This thread is ridiculous! I just read through most pages and I didn't recall seeing anyone asking about spay and neuter contracts on your perfect dogs with no faults? Do you sell pups that are pet quality with a contract or can people just do what they want with your offspring?


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> So did your friend receive papers with said dog and if so with what registry?


Yes, he did recieve papers but i cant remember the registry.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I have a pitcher with the pup and guy inside my house! Thunder is always around when a pup is being sold! He is my service dog! It was the secounded time he brought some one. That is when he singed the papers! At that time I only had Thunder, Sargent and Storm! So my dogs where on the same side my pups where on! All my other dogs where still out of state! If you where there you would of known this! I was in the middle of moving here! That litter was bullie. I have everyone come at lest 2 times before they can buy a pup! As far as him not giting fixed I own breeders rights to him thats why most of the peds are blocked until I if I chose to breed him! Then he must be fixed! If I need to I can show you the contract on the pup


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I believe she mentioned that her dogs are spay neutered before they leave but the OP just pointed out that that isnt true ,his buddy bought his dog unfixed from her with no contract to do so.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

angelbaby said:


> you should bring your friend to gp. is he atleast aware that he has a am bully and not the apbt she is claiming them as? Im glad your friend loves his puppy regardless of any defect like a kink tail { there are many great dogs who have kinked tails in and out of the show ring ,so not a biggie especially since he is a pet } Its pretty obvious there will be no educating someone who doesnt want to learn but maybe we can help fix any BS she passed on to a prior buyer.


So that you know that litter was ABKC and was sold as a bully!


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

angelbaby said:


> I believe she mentioned that her dogs are spay neutered before they leave but the OP just pointed out that that isnt true ,his buddy bought his dog unfixed from her with no contract to do so.


All my puppies or dogs sold as pets have to be fixed unless I want breeder rights in this cause I wanted breeder rights and thats also why he was cheap!


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

pawswithpower said:


> I have a pitcher with the pup and guy inside my house! Thunder is always around when a pup is being sold! He is my service dog! It was the secounded time he brought some one. That is when he singed the papers! At that time I only had Thunder, Sargent and Storm! So my dogs where on the same side my pups where on! All my other dogs where still out of state! If you where there you would of known this! I was in the middle of moving here! That litter was bullie. I have everyone come at lest 2 times before they can buy a pup! As far as him not giting fixed I own breeders rights to him thats why most of the peds are blocked until I if I chose to breed him! Then he must be fixed! If I need to I can show you the contract on the pup


Ok this is getting funny. First of all! No i was with him the FIRST and ONLY time to get the puppy. I believe he saw your ad on Backpage, he called you one night and we went down the next day to pick up the pup. Sorry but you did NOT require him to visit the pup twice! I dont recal you talking about how you were just moving there (it was a yr agao) but like i said, we didnt ask to see them in your defense. But you also mention that the breeding was an accident since Sargent jumped the Fence to the kennel you had Storm in, i remember that detail for sure! But you have yet to comment about his kinked tail that you said he would grow out of??


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

y do you want breeder rights on a dog with a flaw? that dog should have been sold as pet dont you think?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

pawswithpower said:


> I have a pitcher with the pup and guy inside my house! Thunder is always around when a pup is being sold! He is my service dog! It was the secounded time he brought some one. That is when he singed the papers! At that time I only had Thunder, Sargent and Storm! So my dogs where on the same side my pups where on! All my other dogs where still out of state! If you where there you would of known this! I was in the middle of moving here! That litter was bullie. I have everyone come at lest 2 times before they can buy a pup! As far as him not giting fixed I own breeders rights to him thats why most of the peds are blocked until I if I chose to breed him! Then he must be fixed! If I need to I can show you the contract on the pup


I need you to answer my question .... I have shown you real APBT peds now please explain to me how your dog's and my dogs are the same breed? You breed dog's and pass them off as APBT's you don't even know how your dog's are bred having papers and being able to interpret them go hand in hand. You might as well burn your papers. Because they are of no use to you because you don't even acknowledge your dog's linage or where they stem from. You don't cull the defects which means you breed and pass them on to the offspring and you breed for the hell of it. And to add the cherry to the top of the sundae you call your dog's game bred. Lord have mercy. Every great dog man laid to rest is rolling over in his/her grave right now. You are disrespecting both the American Bully and the APBT by not calling your dog's what they are and breeding and passing off trash to some sucker who doesn't know any better. Boy your lucky they can't cull humans for this crap because you would be on the top of the list to go.


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

pawswithpower said:


> All my puppies or dogs sold as pets have to be fixed unless I want breeder rights in this cause I wanted breeder rights and thats also why he was cheap!


You told us he was only cheap for that one week as a special since it was Sargents 1st litter and it was a one week deal? Now i really feel like we were lied to.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Sometimes nothing is the best thing to do and ALWAYS the right thing to say, especially in your case. You dig yourself into a deeper hole every time you post.... You must be all the way in China by now.


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

As for you having a picture with my friend inside, Sorry but i dont remember that. If you do then sorry for bringing that up, i must have been playing with the other puppies and not paying attention. 

How did Sarge die? i know you said someone killed him but how?


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

I'd say you have an unsatisfied customer on your hands there PAW. Bad for business!


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Okay, since this was ragging on my mind.

Since you said they have no flaws....

This picture of Private shows an obvious front flaw. This picture is NOT lying, and her feet are pointing in opposite directions (Easty, westy) 
Her feet are also flat, not tight.

Paws With Power PWP'S Privet meets Rowdy!

This, is a proper front.
http://www.apbtconformation.com/DEpthandwidth2.jpg


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

pawswithpower said:


> All my puppies or dogs sold as pets have to be fixed unless I want breeder rights in this cause I wanted breeder rights and thats also why he was cheap!


Breeders rights huh.....LOL! How do you know that the buyer of your pups won't be breeding to the unpapered bitch or stud down the street behind your back so they can make a quick buck! Seriously??? You sold a pup with a kink tail to someone you don't know. Do you keep tabs on people you sell your dogs to? Do you keep in touch and know what every person does with the offspring of your dogs? I highly doubt it! Do you have your new owners sign contracts with you so you can have breeders rights?


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Oh, and you still didn't answer, what did the OFA score for their elbows?


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Breeders rights huh.....LOL! How do you know that the buyer of your pups won't be breeding to the unpapered bitch or stud down the street behind your back so they can make a quick buck! Seriously??? You sold a pup with a kink tail to someone you don't know. Do you keep tabs on people you sell your dogs to? Do you keep in touch and know what every person does with the offspring of your dogs? I highly doubt it! Do you have your new owners sign contracts with you so you can have breeders rights?


lol funny she has "breeding rights" but she doesn't remember selling a dog to the OP's friend.


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

For one he has a health garentee on his pup! My vet said it would go start in a mouth or to. I told him if it did not I would give his money back replace the dog and That dog would be fixed!! My vet said it happend after birth so it was sore same thing happend to sargent as a pup! My vet see every puppy and dog I have!


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I don't think anyone on this forum believes a single one of your posts. You might as well give up. Isn't this causing you a lot of stress anyway, you said you were in the hospital. Maybe you should take a rest.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

My last vet also told my neighbor he had quality pups...Funny because they all had horrid structure. A vet isn't an expert on what a quality dog looks like.

Could I have an answer please?


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

I did not denie that pup posted at all! I thought thing where ok sence I had not hard a complant! How can I fix somthing if I am not told about it! I have had the same number for a year at lest! As far a why sarge died my sister ex boy friend feed him poison! Ya he claimed up to it to!


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

As a breeder, it is your responsibility to see how the puppies are doing even when they are out of your kennel.


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## kodiakgirl (May 9, 2009)

ashes said:


> _We all have diffrent thoughts what a American Pit Bull Terrier is and I am going to leave it at that_
> 
> We all have thoughts what a APBT is??? yes and everyone on here has had the same opinion on your dogs; that they are NOT. And not to mention there is something called a STANDARD and yours do not meet the APBT standard.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:



Sadie said:


> You come on here and try to tell educated members of both APBT's and American Bullies that you know more than us yet a pedigree tell's the whole story you do NOT own APBT's or Game dogs. You own bullies learn how to read a pedigree and then come talk to me. That's a shame your breeding dog's and you don't even know what the hell your breeding.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:
A pedigree tells it all, if your pedigree says your dog is a bully, it is in fact _a bully!_

I will also add that around here, any person who breeds without having some sort of merit to their dogs (grand champion titles, etc) and perfect health/hips/elbows/eyes and pedigree, is _indeed_ a BYB. We are all here for the betterment of our favorite breed of dogs, be it the APBT or Bully, both are accepted equally around here. You are not breeding for the betterment of the breed, and you are just adding to the already overpopulated pitbull community, and doing absolutely _nothing_ to improve the breed. That is why everyone is against your breeding practices. You are misinformed about the dogs you have, are breeding dogs with obvious faults which should not be passed on, and you are breeding your dogs for "what you want your line to look like"


pawswithpower said:


> sorry about the coby female storm I have. This litter due to drop is her last litter she is having. She is gitting spayed after that. I got her from my grandpa and she is one of the bested dogs I have ever had so I wanted to breed her to my 2 best males I have and pass her gens on *and to git my image I want my line to look like*.


If you're trying to create _"your own lines"_, that screams BYB to me. True breeders breed from proven lines, and breed for a purpose. Not just because "she's the best dog I've ever had."


pawswithpower said:


> The pup was cheap because it was the last one left and just had ABKC papers. It is a low grade pedigree.


And a true, reputable breeder would have *never* done that breeding!!!!!!

Now that I have given my two cents, I am done here.


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## nando87 (Sep 2, 2010)

@P.W.P
I just wanted to say anything that comes from my does NOT represent my friend that was the customer. 

But i will say that i do feel we were lied to and that if you claim you are the breeder you say your are then you did not live up to those expectations. Also not to mention we were sold an APBT not a Bully, but in an earlier post you said that breeding was Bully.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)




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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

BTW PAW if you do decide to stick around and learn please check out the threads we have on color because your dog *Tank *is NOT a red tri. It is not a tri period.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Nice elbows!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Shes Got Heart said:


>


That is the best pic EVA. Can't rep you again for a minute but you got it coming. Awesomeness!


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> BTW PAW if you do decide to stick around and learn please check out the threads we have on color because your dog *Tank *is NOT a red tri. It is not a tri period.


C'mon Lauren, that dog obviously has a black nose, and a red and white coat.... THREE COLORS!:hammer:


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Agreed.
A list of colors just in case you don't go farther than this thread.
American Pit Bull Terrier Network APBT color gallery

Here's a red tri
http://www.apbtconformation.com/tri11_0000.jpg


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Shes Got Heart said:


>


:rofl:I love it. I was tempted to throw in a grammar Nazi picture.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Shes Got Heart said:


> C'mon Lauren, that dog obviously has a black nose, and a red and white coat.... THREE COLORS!:hammer:


Ohhhhhh my bad yo! Thought that they were supposed to have something called points or something but yeah your definition makes way better sense!


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## pawswithpower (Apr 7, 2011)

Celestial88 said:


> Oh, and you still didn't answer, what did the OFA score for their elbows?


Sorry I forgot The looked at thunder and storms the must be normale because they dont grade them. My other ones are also not old enough for this test! My vet says they healthy and breeding qualitiy! He dose show dogs so that you know!


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Yeah, I don't care if he shows. Does he have champion titled APBTs? Just because someone is educated in one breed doesn't mean they know the others.

And I hope you didn't research that. But good job, that was a test question.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Does anyone have anything else to add to this thread before I close it down? Paws you need to get out the dog game all together you have no business breeding dogs. If your going to last around here for any length of time you better leave your BS at the front door. You don't know anything about these dogs and you need to put your pride aside and do what's right for both breeds. You can't learn if you think you already have all the answers.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Word Sadie, close it up!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

pawswithpower said:


> I have a pitcher with the pup and guy inside my house! Thunder is always around when a pup is being sold! He is my service dog! It was the secounded time he brought some one. That is when he singed the papers! At that time I only had Thunder, Sargent and Storm! So my dogs where on the same side my pups where on! All my other dogs where still out of state! If you where there you would of known this! I was in the middle of moving here! That litter was bullie. I have everyone come at lest 2 times before they can buy a pup! As far as him not giting fixed I own breeders rights to him thats why most of the peds are blocked until I if I chose to breed him! Then he must be fixed! If I need to I can show you the contract on the pup


How do you block a ped? I have never heard of someone saying blocking a ped. Again more BYB jargon.



pawswithpower said:


> All my puppies or dogs sold as pets have to be fixed unless I want breeder rights in this cause I wanted breeder rights and thats also why he was cheap!


You wanted breeding rights on a dog with a kinked tail? you vet said it would fix it's self? I would find a new vet! Bones do not just spontaneously fix and go straight! It is a known fault in APBT's and Bullies to have kinked tails.... yes a fault!



Sadie said:


> I need you to answer my question .... I have shown you real APBT peds now please explain to me how your dog's and my dogs are the same breed? You breed dog's and pass them off as APBT's you don't even know how your dog's are bred having papers and being able to interpret them go hand in hand. You might as well burn your papers. Because they are of no use to you because you don't even acknowledge your dog's linage or where they stem from. You don't cull the defects which means you breed and pass them on to the offspring and you breed for the hell of it. And to add the cherry to the top of the sundae you call your dog's game bred. Lord have mercy. Every great dog man laid to rest is rolling over in his/her grave right now. You are disrespecting both the American Bully and the APBT by not calling your dog's what they are and breeding and passing off trash to some sucker who doesn't know any better. Boy your lucky they can't cull humans for this crap because you would be on the top of the list to go.


Took you long enough to jump in! lol

LMAO on the highlighted part.



pawswithpower said:


> For one he has a health garentee on his pup! My vet said it would go start in a mouth or to. I told him if it did not I would give his money back replace the dog and That dog would be fixed!! My vet said it happend after birth so it was sore same thing happend to sargent as a pup! My vet see every puppy and dog I have!


Again BY breeding dogs with faults



pitbullmamanatl said:


> Word Sadie, close it up!


Maybe I am just in the mood but you should open it back up, I think she should be able to defend herself if she wants and this is educational for those that have dealt with BYB's.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Thread opened back up. Just a reminder to everyone, including myself lol, no cussing in the open forum


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Also, to PAW, I'd be happy to answer any question you have pertaining to your dogs' peds. Just let me know


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

pawswithpower said:


> It is a low grade pedigree. .


:rofl: Then why in the world was it bred!

BACK YARD BREEDER...........


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

American_Pit13 said:


> :rofl: Then why in the world was it bred!
> 
> BACK YARD BREEDER...........


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## ashes (Jul 7, 2010)

I smell........ BS!!!! LOL dude you've been caught. lol you're nothing but a BYB so sad. It's ppl like you who are decieving ppl into buying Pit bulls and when in fact they're Am bullies. You changed your story so many times that you have no credibilty and couldn't answer questions that were asked... And I'm a little confused by something?? you have a missing/stolen dog link on you're site?? And you have had a dog poisoned?? How many accidents have happened in your "kennel"???


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Excuse me but what the (beep) is a low grade ped? Do you wipe your butt with it? I am just saying that's a new one. 

Lisa I am so P.O'd I missed this one and caught the tail end of it. Sorry I took so long .. I wish Paw the APBT dog poser would answer my questions already. I am getting a little impatient she sure was talking big smack before I put my peds up. I want her to tell me how her dog's are APBT's yet she has not one game tested dog anywhere in her dog's peds. Game is thrown around so loosely these days baby girl these dogs are only game after they have proven themselves to be game unless your dogs have seen 4 corners and scratched hard till their last breath you don't have game dogs so spare us the dramatics. I don't even have game dogs I have APBT's or bulldogs which ever you prefer.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

And some fine ones at that Sadie!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

I just have a white animal


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> I just have a white animal


Uh-huh honey! White boy is the ish! I don't know any dog that sits up perfectly straight like an old man on a couch and down's whiskey with his owner LMFAO!!! That boy is special! Edit: and smokes cuban cigars like a PIMP lmfao!!!


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I have a BYB special..... (with some genetic issues) thanks to fine people like the likes of paws here....


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Shes Got Heart said:


> And some fine ones at that Sadie!


Thank You Megan!!! :woof:


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

ok .. i know someone broke out the popcorn for this one ..share plz:rain:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

So OT but Kangol is he bestest! I love looking at pictures of him on FB and my husband and I crack up!! I have never seen a dog so proud to sport his junk freely and sit up right! lol

Tara I know I don't even have game dogs, gamebred maybe but not game dogs....... Sheesh I almost feel bad for picking on her but come on! she is lying to people who buy her dogs. She may not think she is lying because she does not know better but still a BYB all around. You can treat your dogs very well and have great set ups and be a BYB. Heck my first litter I was sort of a BYB. It was an accidental breeding that my BF let the dogs "play" together. I learned lessons and the importance of contracts with that litter, but after that I did more research and learned from my mistakes. Everyone has to start somewhere and most started out as BYB's but the difference is we can learn from our mistakes and get better. This person seems to want to argue and not see the truth in her dogs. I have dogs on my yard that have many faults which dog doesn't! This last show I went to I was not given any slack when showing my dogs. Siren is high in the rear and normally I can kind of cover it up when I show her. Cheryl Caragan was the judge and knows my dogs in and out....... I had Siren all stacked up looking normal in the rear and Cheryl asks me to move her forward and natural stack her...... Yeah I got no slack from my best friend (Cheryl who was judging) because she knows my dog has a fault! I got second place and deserved it but my point is we all have faults but some are more major than others. Yes Siren is high in the rear and is a minor fault but E/W in the front IMO is a huge structure issue. I think we should turn this into an educational thread for her to show her what faults are so she can see her dogs for what they are and make better breeding choices in the future.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

motocross308 said:


> ok .. i know someone broke out the popcorn for this one ..share plz:rain:


Havent seen the popcorn out yet but I think I seen someone passing crackers around earlier lol


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Evasive Maneuvers, she gots em!


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

Celestial88 said:


> Evasive Maneuvers, she gots em!


LMAO awsome~!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> BTW PAW if you do decide to stick around and learn please check out the threads we have on color because your dog *Tank *is NOT  a red tri. It is not a tri period.


I will start here this dog of her's has some terrible god awful elbows! I can deal with minor faults all dog's have faults to some degree but there is a line you draw before the culling becomes mandatory.... a jacked up front end is something I would never want in one of my dogs nor would I breed a dog with a bad front end. Underbites, a little down in the pasterns, a little high in the rear, tail set slightly off, shallow chest, these things are all minor. When you start talking about easty-westy feet, turned out elbows like this dog, bad toplines, bad shoulders this is where it becomes a serious problem when a breeder is breeding these faults instead of culling them out the program.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I agree 100% Sadie.:goodpost:


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

wow.... how did i miss this thread?!?!?!? no point in ranting now... i think you guys got about everything covered!!! celestial88... way to get 'em


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Ok so I was looking at where she registers her service dogs and they are one of those places that you can certify any dog as a service dog without have sufficient training.
It's free and anyone can register any dog and they do not need training. This goes back to people registering dogs who should not be out there. I just registered Siren over the internet with out showing proof she has had training and is a service dog. This is how those people get badges for any dog they want to take with them.

The United States Service Dog Registry

Also I saw the pictures she posted of her last litter and she has the pups compared to coke cans..... again another BYB ploy. Oh and a picture of them tied together with Sarge inhis service vest.... how tacky is that!
http://www.slide.com/r/NVk8jKRe7z-m...on=TICKER_ITEM_CLICK&ciid=3314649326215935727

Not even CLOSE to ADBA standard I know she pregnant but you can still see structure
http://www.slide.com/s/tMUPjjWa0D-zYCIzqRpz7jYWs5Bfetju


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Wow I can't believe you can just register a dog as a service dog without intensive therapy training. That's not cool in my book. A service dog is a very big job and subpar training or no training at all should be a crime. What happens if the person is blind? Or completely disabled? Or the person has a serious medical condition. I can't believe that anyone can register a dog as a service dog. And shame on anyone who would use this as a ploy to peddle dogs.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

It gets better!
Paws With Power - Mesa, Arizona Dog Breeders - Dog Breeder Search

more litters of bullies this year
http://phoenix.backpage.com/PetsForSale/paws-with-power-has-puppies-coming/12578631


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> It gets better!
> Paws With Power - Mesa, Arizona Dog Breeders - Dog Breeder Search
> 
> more litters of bullies this year
> Paws With Power Has puppies coming! - phoenix pets for sale - backpage.com


I know who I'm calling on Tuesday night! lmmfao AWEESSSSOOOOMMMEEE


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Normally I would not waste energy and time on people like this but the service dog thing has me steamed!! I am sure her dogs help her in some way but to say she is breeding service dog but yet is not a legit trainer herself just erks me!!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

WOW! I think I am going to be sick

About Paws With Power

I breed and Train Service dog that are American Pit Bull Terriers of all sizes. I do not charge for Service Dogs but I do sell at lest one pup out of each litter I have to help cover my cost of riasing the Services Dog and the training of them. They all have papers and come from great lines!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Cover your cost to register untrained service dogs for free???? Why would you do this? That's so wrong IMO. You are placing these dogs with disabled people you should be ashamed that your dogs are not real service trained dogs like your claiming. I am disgusted ...


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Sadie said:


> WOW! I think I am going to be sick
> 
> About Paws With Power
> 
> I breed and Train Service dog that are *American Pit Bull Terriers* of all sizes. I do not charge for Service Dogs but I do sell at lest one pup out of each litter I have to help cover my cost of riasing the Services Dog and the training of them. They all have papers and come from great lines!


Then right underneath that it says they are American Staffordshire Terriers! Pick a breed!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

If you raise service dogs it takes at least 18 months before you have a half way decent service dog. I know she does not keep them that long and train them especially if her health is as bad as she says it is.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Wow......Besides what you guys said..."Blue nose" Is a BYB term....
The dog is a blue fawn, of course its nose is blue!...Sigh.


Edit: Again with saying no faults. Stormy's hind end is higher than her forequarters.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

watch you will see in the news "pitbull service dog ----insert bad quote----" because these dogs she is handing out as service dogs arent being trained properly and its gonna cost the breed another bad rep and possibly ban from a certain job type. Not good, I hope anyone who is looking at her kennel to get a dog from googles the name and sees this thread.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lisa what I am thinking is this person said her and her son are unemployed I am guessing this is how she makes her living by breeding dogs. I guess my whole thing is this if you are going to breed dog's for income at least breed healthy sound structure/ solid temperament dogs. Put all your effort into them and making these dogs the best they can be. I see someone who is obviously in a bad situation but that is not an excuse to lie and cheat people and innocent animals.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

angelbaby said:


> watch you will see in the news "pitbull service dog ----insert bad quote----" because these dogs she is handing out as service dogs arent being trained properly and its gonna cost the breed another bad rep and possibly ban from a certain job type. Not good, I hope anyone who is looking at her kennel to get a dog from googles the name and sees this thread.


Yeah Angel that's why I am so concerned .. I am actually shocked I had no idea people could register any dog as a service dog without a certain level of training and certification. This is so bad because she is not breeding well rounded dogs so the chance for poor temperament is high. On top of that these dog's are being used to service the public. This is a recipe for disaster.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Yeah Angel that's why I am so concerned .. I am actually shocked I had no idea people could register any dog as a service dog without a certain level of training and certification. This is so bad because she is not breeding well rounded dogs so the chance for poor temperament is high. On top of that these dog's are being used to service the public. This is a recipe for disaster.


I know, it bugs me, truly sad. I could walk into the local animal regulations and request my dog be a service dog and they would do it. Since I volunteer at another shelter.....I refuse to do so until I have a legitimate reason. I do get panicky when left alone, but it's not that bad.


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## dsgdlover (Feb 21, 2011)

Lmao, I've been in hospital sick, now I think I might need to go back due to all this laughter, you all went ham on her lmao:clap:.What was she thinking?? her comments kept everyone ON Her head...too funny, glad to see the guns finally came down.


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## kodiakgirl (May 9, 2009)

motocross308 said:


> ok .. i know someone broke out the popcorn for this one ..share plz:rain:





angelbaby said:


> Havent seen the popcorn out yet but I think I seen someone passing crackers around earlier lol


I've got the popcorn over here! Had some of those Grammar Crackers too, hopefully some more people will eat them! LOL I gave my two cents, now I'm just sitting back and enjoying the show... looks like everyone else has got it handled.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

kodiakgirl said:


> I've got the popcorn over here! Had some of those Grammar Crackers too, hopefully some more people will eat them! LOL I gave my two cents, now I'm just sitting back and enjoying the show... looks like everyone else has got it handled.


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## dday (Oct 5, 2010)

Now that was entertaining! If it wasn't so sad, it would of been a lot funnier.
Every time she talked, she just just threw more fuel on the fire. 
A wiser man than me once said; "It is better to say nothing and let people think your a fool. Than to open your mouth, and remove all doubt!" 
Conclusion; BYB, that has "NO" knowledge of what she breeds. And to make matters worse, "PWP" is deceptive in their practices. What a shame!!!! :curse:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

dday said:


> Now that was entertaining! If it wasn't so sad, it would of been a lot funnier.
> Every time she talked, she just just threw more fuel on the fire.
> A wiser man than me once said; "It is better to say nothing and let people think your a fool. Than to open your mouth, and remove all doubt!"
> Conclusion; BYB, that has "NO" knowledge of what she breeds. And to make matters worse, "PWP" is deceptive in their practices. What a shame!!!! :curse:


Amen to that Dday!!!!:goodpost::hug:


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

dday said:


> Now that was entertaining! If it wasn't so sad, it would of been a lot funnier.
> Every time she talked, she just just threw more fuel on the fire.
> A wiser man than me once said; "It is better to say nothing and let people think your a fool. Than to open your mouth, and remove all doubt!"
> Conclusion; BYB, that has "NO" knowledge of what she breeds. And to make matters worse, "PWP" is deceptive in their practices. What a shame!!!! :curse:










Now I am bored though..... Unfortunately, (for the breed but fortunately for me ) another one just like her will pop up sometime in the near future.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Ah, just reading this abomination of a thread right again.


> My main goal is to breed for Service Dogs. I dont Sale many dogs. I dont wait people buying my dogs just because they are chams. All my dogs are UKC papered. Not Bully they show in the Clasice or standered class in the ABKC . They look for what the real APBT should look like. Storm and Thunder are both old school lines (reds). I just did not send in there UKC papers when they where young and by the time I went to send them in they where not readable and my grandpa passed away 4ms before so I put them in the ABKC. Yes I do hip and joint test. They have to pass with flying colors before I breed them.


Geeeez she is all over the place. All dogs are UKC registered, they aren't bully, yet they show in the (I am assuming this is what she meant) Classic and Standard Class and the other dogs come from old school lines (reds.) I am assuming she meant Camelot since I see a large amount of Camelot dogs on tops of a couple of her peds. I just need to quit reading this thread, I'm losing brain cells expeditiously. Rant over.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I love how her pure Colby dogs only have two dogs in their pedigree....With the same name.

Oh and you only mentioned testing Thunder and Stormy. Yet you've bred Private, and Sargent....


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

I also noticed that you bred Tank......That makes me a sad panda.


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## kodiakgirl (May 9, 2009)

No response from her could mean one of two things... either she's tired of us OR she finally realized we're RIGHT. I've still got some popcorn ready, waiting for the action to begin again (hopefully it doesn't go stale!) LOL


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

kodiakgirl said:


> No response from her could mean one of two things... either she's tired of us OR she finally realized we're RIGHT. I've still got some popcorn ready, waiting for the action to begin again (hopefully it doesn't go stale!) LOL


Oh she long gone girl... I am just picking apart this thread now lol


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

You know she still reading this this though... just not signed in hahahaha


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## kodiakgirl (May 9, 2009)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Oh she long gone girl... I am just picking apart this thread now lol





pitbullmamanatl said:


> You know she still reading this this though... just not signed in hahahaha


ahhh shucks... I guess I'll just have to go ahead and eat the rest of my popcorn... lol :roll:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I want some of those red nosed Colby dogs lmfao. That's some rare stuff right there.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> I want some of those red nosed Colby dogs lmfao. That's some rare stuff right there.


:rofl: ... :rofl:


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## Kathleen (Apr 3, 2011)

I am new to this board. 
After reading this Thread, I must say, after a bag of Milano cookies and 5 cups of coffee later, I still see nothing changes. I've noticed in the past few years that it is so easy to spot the BYB. It's obvious. They can not spell, use correct grammar, or take constructive criticism. ...and "They just don't 'git' it"!

This person is uneducated as we can see. Maybe she doesn't know how to read either, or comprehend in what we are trying to tell her (obviously).

I actually feel sorry for her 'dumb' butt. .. anyway, it was a great read! Made me forget about my problems for the day 

I hope she does stick around. Maybe in time she will get it.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> :rofl: ... :rofl:


 Fh they have been holding out on us quick call Colby and put down deposits on whatever he has left. Bout to bring them red nosed Colby dogs to the south. We shall call them rare southern red nosed colby's.


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## COSA NOSTRA MRFRANKIE (Nov 11, 2009)

*LOL!!! SAD POST...*


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

COSA NOSTRA MRFRANKIE said:


> *LOL!!! SAD POST...*


FRAAAAANNNKKKKIIIEEEE! What's up!


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

So we sweeping up around here?


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## Gimbler (Jan 29, 2010)

I wonder if there even are any "service dogs". Maybe she just sells every pup from every litter and uses this "service" schtick as a marketing/goodwill tool as if there aren't many available for purchase. You know - Hurry! Supplies are limited!


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Any dog can be a service dog.... you can get a dog from the shelter, and if it has the right "stuff" it can be a service dog..


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## SouthernMystery (Feb 20, 2011)

I missed all of this?? Well everyone I've been breeding for 15years and my bloodline is the 1k bloodline. You talked to one of my customers.


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## aussie monster pitt (Mar 3, 2011)

sorry but you said your disabled and need a service dog to accompany you to the doctors but you crossed ur colby dog to your "xxl" dog and used the pupps as catch dogs do you go piggin?

and you said you only breed the males twice in there life then how did you end up with 30 dogs or what ever plus all the ones you gave away as "service dogs" and all the ones you sold oh and why have a website with links to sires, dams, other studs, produced, and for sale, if your not about gettin a buck?
if you breed to give the dogs away why in the hell would you need a website to advertise?

oh and why would you be breeding "gamebred" dogs for service dogs?
thats about the stupidest thing ive heard maybe u shoulda done som research before trying to defend yourself


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## aussie monster pitt (Mar 3, 2011)

pawswithpower said:


> So that you know that litter was ABKC and was sold as a bully!


so if that litter was ABKC and you sold them as bully then how come you say the same sire and dam are APBT?


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## Kathleen (Apr 3, 2011)

aussie monster pitt said:


> sorry but you said your disabled and need a service dog to accompany you to the doctors but you crossed ur colby dog to your "xxl" dog and used the pupps as catch dogs do you go piggin?
> 
> and you said you only breed the males twice in there life then how did you end up with 30 dogs or what ever plus all the ones you gave away as "service dogs" and all the ones you sold oh and why have a website with links to sires, dams, other studs, produced, and for sale, if your not about gettin a buck?
> if you breed to give the dogs away why in the hell would you need a website to advertise?
> ...


upruns: ....she's running for the door....

 Great questions


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

this post has stayin power!


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

I just got done reading this post. You guys a mean and do not know nothing about her or her dogs. She might not use your words but she love them a lot! Me and one of my best friend did get two dogs from her at no cost and they where trained Service Dogs for me and my friend! I have had 3 Service Dogs in my 67 years of life. Two of them being labs and the APBT/Bully. The APBT/Bully (ACE) is by far the best one I have ever had! He came with AAPBA , ABKC and when I fixed him I got his ADBA, UKC and AKC papers that had all the information on them. Yes the ABKC and AAPBA papers had no Sire and Dam information on it like she told me they would be blocked (or not filled in). When I took the time and called the AAPBA and ABKC they made them that way for her so she could place them in pet or working homes. My dog is 3 yrs old now and I have had my dog checked out by the best vets around and they all said he looks great! I have also been to some of the dog show around here and talked to some of the show people and they told me if he was not fixed he would place. As far as her house When I was there it was clean and her dogs all act like they love her a lot and where well trained. She has shown me news papers with her in them in a good way not bad! I forgot to tell you how I found out about her. My Doctor gave me her card and told me she has some great Service Dogs and She trains them and I should get my next dog from her! After I got Ace from her I offered her some money and she told me no that's why I sell one puppy from each litter to cover cost! That being said Think what you may I know how she really is!

By the way there is no such thing called a Back Yard Breeder or Puppy Mill look it up! As Far as that go's I do not call a person who loves , cares and feeds her dogs and puppies EVO/Royal Canine and has you do a contract before you can take them a bad breeder! If the person was unhappy he could of took the puppy back she would of made it right. By the way ADA has no one test to be a Service Dog and she only dose that to make our life easy to go out to places and she dose not charge a thing! She got me a vest at no charge and Id for my dog! She covered over 400 of stuff! By the away ADA says we do not need anything for the dog just that it can do at lest 3 things to help me in my daily life and he dose over 15 approved things that she has trained him to do! My dog has passed the Public Access Test and the Canine Good Citizen test and the same with my friends dog. So saying the temperament of her puppies and dogs are bad is so wrong!

So you need to quiet talking bad about some one you do not know!


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

My dog has had his hips and elbows x-rayed and came out good, he is a trained service dog, and has his CGC. He is a mixed breed, you can find plenty of dogs perfectly capable of doing all these things from adoption agencies. When breeding dogs their purpose should be brought into play. Training service dogs is quite easy in many cases, and all it does is require a dog who can be trained (any dog that doesn't have mental disorder), and is stable in public settings, not that hard to find. 

Instead, we're just needlessly adding onto the number of dogs that aren't improving and breeds and are just taking the places of other perfectly able animals. A breeder should be breeding for something more demanding and specific to the breed. If you're breeding Malinois, I'd like to see them working in some area of bitework, etc. With Bullies I'd like to see some titles, possibly some weight pulling at least being conformationly correct and health tested.
American Bullies don't need anymore mediocre breeders, they need people who are going to get serious about improving the breed.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

ACEOFACE said:


> I just got done reading this post. You guys a mean and do not know nothing about her or her dogs. She might not use your words but she love them a lot! Me and one of my best friend did get two dogs from her at no cost and they where trained Service Dogs for me and my friend! I have had 3 Service Dogs in my 67 years of life. Two of them being labs and the APBT/Bully. The APBT/Bully (ACE) is by far the best one I have ever had! He came with AAPBA , ABKC and when I fixed him I got his ADBA, UKC and AKC papers that had all the information on them. Yes the ABKC and AAPBA papers had no Sire and Dam information on it like she told me they would be blocked (or not filled in). When I took the time and called the AAPBA and ABKC they made them that way for her so she could place them in pet or working homes. My dog is 3 yrs old now and I have had my dog checked out by the best vets around and they all said he looks great! I have also been to some of the dog show around here and talked to some of the show people and they told me if he was not fixed he would place. As far as her house When I was there it was clean and her dogs all act like they love her a lot and where well trained. She has shown me news papers with her in them in a good way not bad! I forgot to tell you how I found out about her. My Doctor gave me her card and told me she has some great Service Dogs and She trains them and I should get my next dog from her! After I got Ace from her I offered her some money and she told me no that's why I sell one puppy from each litter to cover cost! That being said Think what you may I know how she really is!
> 
> By the way there is no such thing called a Back Yard Breeder or Puppy Mill look it up! As Far as that go's I do not call a person who loves , cares and feeds her dogs and puppies EVO/Royal Canine and has you do a contract before you can take them a bad breeder! If the person was unhappy he could of took the puppy back she would of made it right. By the way ADA has no one test to be a Service Dog and she only dose that to make our life easy to go out to places and she dose not charge a thing! She got me a vest at no charge and Id for my dog! She covered over 400 of stuff! By the away ADA says we do not need anything for the dog just that it can do at lest 3 things to help me in my daily life and he dose over 15 approved things that she has trained him to do! My dog has passed the Public Access Test and the Canine Good Citizen test and the same with my friends dog. So saying the temperament of her puppies and dogs are bad is so wrong!
> 
> So you need to quiet talking bad about some one you do not know!


Holy grammatical nightmare, Batman.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

:rofl: You read my mind sometimes.


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

Celestial88 said:


> My dog has had his hips and elbows x-rayed and came out good, he is a trained service dog, and has his CGC. He is a mixed breed, you can find plenty of dogs perfectly capable of doing all these things from adoption agencies. When breeding dogs their purpose should be brought into play. Training service dogs is quite easy in many cases, and all it does is require a dog who can be trained (any dog that doesn't have mental disorder), and is stable in public settings, not that hard to find.
> 
> Instead, we're just needlessly adding onto the number of dogs that aren't improving and breeds and are just taking the places of other perfectly able animals. A breeder should be breeding for something more demanding and specific to the breed. If you're breeding Malinois, I'd like to see them working in some area of bitework, etc. With Bullies I'd like to see some titles, possibly some weight pulling at least being conformationly correct and health tested.
> American Bullies don't need anymore mediocre breeders, they need people who are going to get serious about improving the breed.


She is showing in ABKC and dose want to better the breed. Call her and talk to her. Her number is 480-709-3080. She is trying to breed the best over all Service Dog, show and pet. My spelling may be bad and hers to but that happens when you have a seizure disorder. We all need to sick together to save our breed. All I see is hate and that's what everyone is seeing when they read this. If she is doing so bad help her not put her down. But remember we all see thing different. The first Service Dog that was seen as a Service Dog was a APBT some people call today a game line (game dog). It was what people called them back in that day but today we have many types of apbt out there now.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

ACEOFACE said:


> She is showing in ABKC and dose want to better the breed. Call her and talk to her. Her number is 480-709-3080. She is trying to breed the best over all Service Dog, show and pet. My spelling may be bad and hers to but that happens when you have a seizure disorder. We all need to sick together to save our breed. All I see is hate and that's what everyone is seeing when they read this. If she is doing so bad help her not put her down. But remember we all see thing different. The first Service Dog that was seen as a Service Dog was a APBT some people call today a game line (game dog). It was what people called them back in that day but today we have many types of apbt out there now.


WRONG! There is only one APBT.

You have your UKC show APBT and you have your ADBA APBT, and the ADBA standard is the one that is closest to a real pit dog.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

wow glad im reading this from bed I need a nap after all this. Anyways continue its rather amusing ....... And I agree there is only 1 APBT , what she has is american bullys NOT APBT's , But I thought she would have gotten that by now since its only been brought up like 67 times in here.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Funny how this post is the same as the other two posters that were on here on her behalf. Same grammatical errors and everything. Now that is interesting. Even if both posters had the same seizure disorder I doubt they would make the EXACT grammatical errors and spell the SAME words WRONG.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Funny how this post is the same as the other two posters that were on here on her behalf. Same grammatical errors and everything. Now that is interesting. Even if both posters had the same seizure disorder I doubt they would make the EXACT grammatical errors and spell the SAME words WRONG.


 Bet they have the same IP address too.



> By the way there is no such thing called a Back Yard Breeder or Puppy Mill look it up!


WTF? Did you seriously post that?

The whole therapy dog thing freaks me out. A legitimate Therapy Dog takes years of training and the certification is, well, actually a certification. The whole "I'm going to call my dog a service dog because I can" thing is a fraud, and eventually it's going to blow up in peoples faces, making it harder for real therapy dogs. Just because a dog can pass a CGC does not make it a therapy dog.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

So much wrong here... She ain't breeding APBT's nor is she breeding consistency.. That Colby is not a Colby, them "titles" are useless for a world class working hound..

Everyone knows the deal.. Is what it is just another fool thinking they know shit..


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

Kingsgurl said:


> Bet they have the same IP address too.
> 
> WTF? Did you seriously post that?
> 
> The whole therapy dog thing freaks me out. A legitimate Therapy Dog takes years of training and the certification is, well, actually a certification. The whole "I'm going to call my dog a service dog because I can" thing is a fraud, and eventually it's going to blow up in peoples faces, making it harder for real therapy dogs. Just because a dog can pass a CGC does not make it a therapy dog.


At No Point did I say my dog or that she breeds Therapy dogs lol. I have a Service Dog not a Therapy dog. They are not the same google it! A Service Dog is NOT a PET! Not just any dog can be a Service Dog! A Therapy dog can not go everywhere and has no task but to be petted lol. A Service dog is a tool to help A PERSON to be able to do more AKA Seeing Eye dogs. What is going to make it hard for people in need is people like you guys that don't know the difference and take there Therapy dogs to place they can not go! Please look up stuff you might learn thing lol. Go to ADA website and you will see how you are wrong.
You don't need to breed for a Therapy dog because all it takes is a dog that love to be petted and loved by everyone and a dog that can do basic commands and is house trained lol. Many dogs can do that!

As for all the other reply's ...
For one I have papers with a picture of my dog from ADBA saying my DOG is a American Pit Bull Terrier so are you calling them wrong? LOL
Point blank My dog is one and so are hers lol. Stop hating and grow up! You might learn some thing and everyone can get a long!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

ACEOFACE said:


> As for all the other reply's ...
> For one I have papers with a picture of my dog from ADBA saying my DOG is a American Pit Bull Terrier so are you calling them wrong? LOL
> Point blank My dog is one and so are hers lol. Stop hating and grow up! You might learn some thing and everyone can get a long!


I wish you would take the same advice you're dishing out. I just glanced at your posts because your statement about no such thing as BYB's is just sad. If you do not realize the plight this breed has because of stupid BYB's, you need to stick around and learn yourself. People who breed for color, not purpose. People who breed for money before the well being of their dogs, not health testing and not conforming to a breed standard then you need to make sure you stick around you have TONS to learn yourself.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> At No Point did I say my dog or that she breeds Therapy dogs lol. I have a Service Dog not a Therapy dog. They are not the same google it! A Service Dog is NOT a PET! Not just any dog can be a Service Dog! A Therapy dog can not go everywhere and has no task but to be petted lol. A Service dog is a tool to help A PERSON to be able to do more AKA Seeing Eye dogs. What is going to make it hard for people in need is people like you guys that don't know the difference and take there Therapy dogs to place they can not go! Please look up stuff you might learn thing lol. Go to ADA website and you will see how you are wrong.
> You don't need to breed for a Therapy dog because all it takes is a dog that love to be petted and loved by everyone and a dog that can do basic commands and is house trained lol. Many dogs can do that!
> 
> As for all the other reply's ...
> ...


So, what organization is your SERVICE DOG certified through? What service does he/she provide to you? Oddly, you don't get real specific about your particular dog.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

In most places, where I live for example you do not have to register or certify a service dog. As long as you can show they're well behaved and have a beneficial purpose they can be a service dog. And for the most part training is extremely easy, well for anyone who's experienced. 

Now to me, seeing eye dogs are on a totally different level than your average service dog, they go through extensive training while say a dog that detects/alerts to low/high blood sugar only takes a few weeks to train.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

I want him to define what his service dog does and whom has certified it as such, that is all.... for precisely that reason.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

i can show you pics of an ugly english bulldog thats adba reged as an apbt, that reg is garbage now. it can join the akc and ukc as an absolute waste of time


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

they are bullies, you can see, in sargents head, that hes got mastiff in him. look at his jowls. RE in ped too.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

zohawn said:


> they are bullies, you can see, in sargents head, that hes got mastiff in him. look at his gowls. RE in ped too.


Do you mean jowls?


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

Kingsgurl said:


> I want him to define what his service dog does and whom has certified it as such, that is all.... for precisely that reason.


Ok I am a female for one. To there is no Certified for a service dog please go to ADA the government page. As long as my dog is trained for my needs and my needs are called a task he is a service dog under the government laws. My dog ACE can dose many thing for me here are just some of them....
Seizure alerting (Facilitated Alert Training)
Retrieve dropped items
Turn lights on and off
Hit a life line button to call for help
Locate someone if help is needed
Balancing/bracing (living cane)
Helps gets me down or up off of the floor/chair/car


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

Celestial88 said:


> In most places, where I live for example you do not have to register or certify a service dog. As long as you can show they're well behaved and have a beneficial purpose they can be a service dog. And for the most part training is extremely easy, well for anyone who's experienced.
> 
> Now to me, seeing eye dogs are on a totally different level than your average service dog, they go through extensive training while say a dog that detects/alerts to low/high blood sugar only takes a few weeks to train.


My task where harder than the normally dog. I have many things wrong and my dog has to do way more than most. My friends dog(sargent x storm) is a seeing eye and it took my dog longer to learn than hers. I can loss my sight after I have a seizure for up to a day so my dog has to know the same stuff as a seeing eye dog dose.


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

Any other questions I missed?


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

zohawn said:


> they are bullies, you can see, in sargents head, that hes got mastiff in him. look at his jowls. RE in ped too.


All I know is she has AAPBA, ADBA, ABKC, UKC,and AKC papers on him. She had his sire and dam to that she got off of a breeder in California. They could of at one time have mastiff but I can tell you she don't breed that way. Why I can say that my husbands co-work wanted to breed is not papered female dog (pit bull) with one of her dogs and offered a 1000 to do so! I was there when that happened and she said " NO! I don't make mutts because there are way to many in the pound and it is wrong!". She did fix Sargent after his one and only litter that dog had and placed with some one in need.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> All I know is she has AAPBA, ADBA, ABKC, UKC,and AKC papers on him. She had his sire and dam to that she got off of a breeder in California. They could of at one time have mastiff but I can tell you she don't breed that way. Why I can say that my husbands co-work wanted to breed is not papered female dog (pit bull) with one of her dogs and offered a 1000 to do so! I was there when that happened and she said " NO! I don't make mutts because there are way to many in the pound and it is wrong!". She did fix Sargent after his one and only litter that dog had and placed with some one in need.


Must be one hell of a dog to have both APBT and American Bully registries acknowledge them.. If shown in all thats APBT, AmBully and Amstaff..

I dont care how your dog is registered, i don't support registries as they don't support working bred hounds.. Haven't in decades..

Call your dog what you want they are all Bulldogs and Bandogs until otherwise proven, unless your hound is proven it isn't an APBT.. And i have my doubts on breeding practices..


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Must be one hell of a dog to have both APBT and American Bully registries acknowledge them.. If shown in all thats APBT, AmBully and Amstaff..
> 
> I dont care how your dog is registered, i don't support registries as they don't support working bred hounds.. Haven't in decades..
> 
> Call your dog what you want they are all Bulldogs and Bandogs until otherwise proven, unless your hound is proven it isn't an APBT.. And i have my doubts on breeding practices..


Why do you have doubts? have you talked to her one on one or been to her house? She dose DNA on all of her litters and the dogs she breeds. Not many breeders do that.


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

why would you DNA a litter, especially if the parents are DNA'd


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> Why do you have doubts? have you talked to her one on one or been to her house? She dose DNA on all of her litters and the dogs she breeds. Not many breeders do that.


All reputable breeders i have ever known of do not need to DNA because they already know what they have on their yards through proper records, DNA testing isn't 100% accurate as many breeds are not listed or will show up as something else.. A friend of mine did a DNA test on her purebred Golden Retriever a few years ago just to see what it would come back as, i don't remember the breeds actually listed but it came back as two breeds neither of which were correct.. Her hound has written and registry PED dating back 7 generations.. Which may or may not be impressive depending upon the individual however its enough by any standard to know what you have..

Also, DNA testing does not recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier only the American Staffordshire Terrier which is not the same breed, at one point in time yes however over time the AST has been bred for the show ring and for entirely different purpose.. Different function, temperament, etc all together..

APBT's do not make good service dogs, you can't fight the genetic aspect of their drive, function and ability to perform hard labor type of work.. Perhaps a Cur, Bulldog/Bandog in the sense of a non - proven APBT or cold, however in my experience the only media derived term "Pit Bull" (in modern sense) that would do well as service dogs are either mixes or bred away from root standard to different function/ability.. Meaning not breeding true to the bred and breeding away from what the breed is..

Were those pictures you posted in the structure thread yours? If so one looks like an American Bully and structure, mass the other looks like a potential AST/American Bully cross or one or the other.. While the APBT is not bred for appearance but rather function as a working hound, the structure of those two posted looks an awfully lot like the fore - mentioned..

Since your dog(s) are registered do you have a PED link?


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> All reputable breeders i have ever known of do not need to DNA because they already know what they have on their yards through proper records, DNA testing isn't 100% accurate as many breeds are not listed or will show up as something else.. A friend of mine did a DNA test on her purebred Golden Retriever a few years ago just to see what it would come back as, i don't remember the breeds actually listed but it came back as two breeds neither of which were correct.. Her hound has written and registry PED dating back 7 generations.. Which may or may not be impressive depending upon the individual however its enough by any standard to know what you have..
> 
> Also, DNA testing does not recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier only the American Staffordshire Terrier which is not the same breed, at one point in time yes however over time the AST has been bred for the show ring and for entirely different purpose.. Different function, temperament, etc all together..
> 
> ...


She dose the DNA on Because she wanted to because she is trying to do the best to better the breed and to prove what dogs where breed together. She has every dog DNA tested even the ones she spayed as a pup. It is also a great way if some one stills your dog as prof that it is the said dog along with chipping them. My dog stands 18" tall and weigh is 67lbs fixed. He is a great working dog for me! He has a ready saved my life!

Those dogs I posted are one of my friends dogs and they are bully and way thicker than mine and my other friends dog.
I don't breed my dog so I don't have one and I don't know how to do one sorry.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

DNS results take a while how is that going to help her if she loses a dog that is micro-chipped and needs to prove it (other than the chip?) and DNS is NOT reliable there are many studies that take one dog and give it 3 different tests and they all come back different.

and I normally could give a CRAP about grammar and spelling but, seriously, its difficult to understand what you are saying and its does. DOES DOES DOES not dose like you are taking medicine...


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

ames said:


> DNS results take a while how is that going to help her if she loses a dog that is micro-chipped and needs to prove it (other than the chip?) and DNS is NOT reliable there are many studies that take one dog and give it 3 different tests and they all come back different.
> 
> and I normally could give a CRAP about grammar and spelling but, seriously, its difficult to understand what you are saying and its does. DOES DOES DOES not dose like you are taking medicine...


Think what you want and say what you want I have seen court case's win because of DNA test having to be done on a dog over fake papers and ownership. I have been there my self. Yes it takes a while but so dose court lol . Yes my grammar is not the best at no point did I say it was..I said I had spelling issues a ready lol If she do not have the type of American Pit Bull Terrier you like move on..She is not putting your dog/dogs down and you know there are many types out there called APBT I have seen some old schools lines called Bully to I don't say anything because until UKC/ADBA changes there name they are APBT no matter what anyone can do..It is what it is. Go after the Clubs so they all can come up with standers that have more detail and have them all stop duel papering to! That would make everyone happy! Then no one can put down a breeder just to make there "look" better .


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

ACEOFACE said:


> She dose the DNA on Because she wanted to because she is trying to do the best to better the breed and to prove what dogs where breed together. She has every dog DNA tested even the ones she spayed as a pup. It is also a great way if some one stills your dog as prof that it is the said dog along with chipping them. My dog stands 18" tall and weigh is 67lbs fixed. He is a great working dog for me! He has a ready saved my life!
> 
> Those dogs I posted are one of my friends dogs and they are bully and way thicker than mine and my other friends dog.
> I don't breed my dog so I don't have one and I don't know how to do one sorry.


18" tall and 67lbs? that's a big dog and does not fit the APBT standard. I have several dogs who are 18" and they all weigh under 45lbs. I missed most of what your going on about but you can defend a breeder like this but the educated know better.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> 18" tall and 67lbs? that's a big dog and does not fit the APBT standard. I have several dogs who are 18" and they all weigh under 45lbs. I missed most of what your going on about but you can defend a breeder like this *but the educated know better*.


period. just stop.


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> 18" tall and 67lbs? that's a big dog and does not fit the APBT standard. I have several dogs who are 18" and they all weigh under 45lbs. I missed most of what your going on about but you can defend a breeder like this but the educated know better.


lol my dog is fix! he is fat lol


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> lol my dog is fix! he is fat lol


So you have a fat working dog? LMAO seriously? You should take a step back and listen to yourself as you make NO sense whats so ever..

Damn shame you refuse to see the truth as your too blind to see the wall of BS in front of you.


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> So you have a fat working dog? LMAO seriously? You should take a step back and listen to yourself as you make NO sense whats so ever..
> 
> Damn shame you refuse to see the truth as your too blind to see the wall of BS in front of you.


When you fix a dog they gain weight no matter what you do lol


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> When you fix a dog they gain weight no matter what you do lol


Really? Because i've seen many spayed and neutered dogs over the years from all sorts of breeds in excellent shape.. S/N has nothing to do with it.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ACEOFACE said:


> When you fix a dog they gain weight no matter what you do lol


Well you just can't stop posting things that show you have no idea what you are talking about.

My neutered 3 year old male. Not Fat and in excellent condition. Keeping a dog fat is due to your lack of proper exercise or over feeding so don't try using altering as an excuse to not maintain a dog.


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Really? Because i've seen many spayed and neutered dogs over the years from all sorts of breeds in excellent shape.. S/N has nothing to do with it.


I did not say he was not in shape. He is vary active and runs all the time. After I fixed him he gained wait and I put him on the diet my vet wanted me to. My vet said some dogs are just that way but as long as he is healthy and active don't worry about it.


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

Nizmo said:


> why would you DNA a litter, especially if the parents are DNA'd


To prove they came from the dam and sire that's why. She wants to make sure no one hangs different papers on her dog or thinks another dog sired the litter she had. In the past some one got a puppy from her and put another dogs pedigree on the pup to breed him. The ADBA and UKC pulled the fake pedigree's off the dog because she took DNA of the sire and dam and sent it in for prof the dog was her production. She now DNA's Every dog she owns and Produced so if it happens again it wont take as long. We both don't like it when people put fake pedigrees on dogs or puppies. The UKC ,ADBA, ABKC and many other Kennel Clubs are wanting everyone now to do DNA so they can get rid of the fake papered dogs that are out there! I think it is a great thing we all need to do it.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> lol my dog is fix! he is* fat *lol





ACEOFACE said:


> *I did not say he was not in shape*. He is vary active and runs all the time. After I fixed him he gained wait and I put him on the diet my vet wanted me to. My vet said some dogs are just that way but as long as he is healthy and active don't worry about it.


 ACTUALLY ya did  I put it right up here so you could see it. Youre ignorant and uneducated. Youre stubborn, and until you listen to what everyone that knows something is saying youll stay that way!!

I have APBT'S AND they are registered with 4 different regestries, but none of them cross the path of the BULLY regestries. Youre full of


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> ACTUALLY ya did  I put it right up here so you could see it. Youre ignorant and uneducated. Youre stubborn, and until you listen to what everyone that knows something is saying youll stay that way!!
> 
> I have APBT'S AND they are registered with 4 different regestries, but none of them cross the path of the BULLY regestries. Youre full of


I did not mean fat as un healthy lol the bully regestries has a classic class for the real American Pit bull Terrier to they honer them lol. The owner will let any APBT in as long as it has papers throw adba, ukc or akc


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> I did not mean fat as un healthy lol the bully regestries has a classic class for the real American Pit bull Terrier to they honer them lol. The owner will let any APBT in as long as it has papers throw adba, ukc or akc


fat means fat, in shape means in shape,, its not that similar. You gotta remember chicka.. youre in the world of bulldogs now. not whatever you "breed" for 20 years before (shoulda spent some of that time learning )

have you even seen an "in shape" dog??

all im sayin s post up ur peds !!! show me all 6 regestries papers ,, thats all im screamin.. until then your mouth drips poop

oh, and ill show you mine if you show me yours!! dont be scared


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> I did not mean fat as un healthy lol the bully regestries has a classic class for the real American Pit bull Terrier to they honer them lol. The owner will let any APBT in as long as it has papers throw adba, ukc or akc


LMFAO if you think the classic class for American Bullies are for "real" American Pit Bull Terriers that says it all.. No need for discussion here, you'll learn one day.. Until then keep spewing that BS because anyone who knows even basic information knows your wrong.. Quit trying to argue with those with REAL experience handling REAL hounds, just another cocky full of shit owner believing all the BS the BYBs tell them.

Man i give it to you, classic = APBT.. Funniest shit i've heard in a WHILE..


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> LMFAO if you think the classic class for American Bullies are for "real" American Pit Bull Terriers that says it all.. No need for discussion here, you'll learn one day.. Until then keep spewing that BS because anyone who knows even basic information knows your wrong.. Quit trying to argue with those with REAL experience handling REAL hounds, just another cocky full of shit owner believing all the BS the BYBs tell them.
> 
> Man i give it to you, classic = APBT.. Funniest shit i've heard in a WHILE..


You the joke not me. Have you been to a ABKC show? The classic would have in them dogs like yours and mine. To let you know one of thunder and storms pups that did go to a family for show has champed out in the ADBA . That dog lives in Kansas . Maybe your the BYB and is unhappy with you dogs and to make your dogs better is to put down others that are doing a good thing. People like you are who is messing up the breed and not letting thing progress. You are the one that think would think fighting a dog is OK and having a dog the does not like other dog is ok to breed because it is in there blood. If you go far enough back in the breed you will see it was the first Service Dog around that was excepted was a real (first) APBT . Then people started to fight them and started to make them smaller and lighter for a better fight. Now people are making them thick again so the fighter don't want them anymore. My great grandfather use to fight them he would not even go for your dogs because they would lose in a fight or stand up. He also had the older big APBT's for the family and hunting. He was a real dog man and if he was a live to dad he would not stand for how people like you think! I have all his old notes he had and it has a lot of information in it on or breed! By the way he was one of the most looked at breeder even today! John P. Colby was his name! I am done with this post and the people who think they know everything about this breed and Paws With Power.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

So you are you saying their were service APBT's before they were pit dogs? Lol. These dog were created for the pit then branched off to other venues. If you read you'r "great grandfathers" notes you would already know that.

Why is so hard for you to relise that you don't know what you are talking about. But it is so easy for you to make things up?


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## ACEOFACE (Dec 17, 2011)

Rudy4747 said:


> So you are daub their were service APBT's before they were pit dogs? Lol. These dog were created for the pit then branched off to other aspecta. If you read you'r "great fathers" notes you would already know that.
> 
> Why is so hard for you to relise that you don't know what you are talking about. But it is so easy for you to make things up?


The first working Service dog for the handicap that was excepted in history was a American Pit bull Terrier owned by Helen Adams Keller look it up lol I done I am not wasting my time anymore


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## Sucker For A Rednose (Sep 11, 2011)

You saying dog aggressive APBT's should never be bred just shows how dumb you are to the breed. APBT's are very prone to DA, it is when they are HA that they need to be culled. No good breeder will breed a HA dog. APBT's were also bred for the pit, NOT to be service dogs. YES,they in fact were branched to other things but when the breed first came around it was for the purpose of fighting.

Why are you gonna argue with people who know their stuff?
Jeep & KM ESPECIALLY is not the people to fo against,
I have seen them spew better information in a sentence then you have in this entire thread.

Word of advice girly;
Educate yourself or pick people in your mental range to battle.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

NOTICE TO ANY NEW MEMBERS READING THIS POST: THOSE WHO HAVE NOTHING BUT RED UNDER THEIR NAMES HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN TO WHAT THEY ARE POSTING AND DO RESEARCH TO LEARN PROPERLY. 


Enough people here have made it very clear you have no idea what you are talking about and sadly you are also making this kennel look much worse with your lack of education and speaking as if you know what you are talking about.


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

You are the biggest moron to ever post on this board. There have been a few, trust me, but to try and lie to everyone that John p. Colby was your grandfather beats everything! I do love how they were service dogs first and then they downsized them to fight after. Mr. Colby's family would have culled you if you were born to them.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> The first working Service dog for the handicap that was excepted in history was a American Pit bull Terrier owned by Helen Adams Keller look it up lol I done I am not wasting my time anymore


oh my god did I miss a history lesson here?? Helen Keller was born in 1880... are you seriously sitting here telling me that there werent pitdogs in 1880.. or before.. that only til after they became "service dogs" did they start "making them smaller for fighting???????

cause I have REAL papers on my dogs from way before 1880.. another epic fail for you around TRUE KNOWLEDGE!!!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ACEOFACE said:


> You the joke not me. Have you been to a ABKC show? The classic would have in them dogs like yours and mine. To let you know one of thunder and storms pups that did go to a family for show has champed out in the ADBA . That dog lives in Kansas . Maybe your the BYB and is unhappy with you dogs and to make your dogs better is to put down others that are doing a good thing. People like you are who is messing up the breed and not letting thing progress. You are the one that think would think fighting a dog is OK and having a dog the does not like other dog is ok to breed because it is in there blood. If you go far enough back in the breed you will see it was the first Service Dog around that was excepted was a real (first) APBT . Then people started to fight them and started to make them smaller and lighter for a better fight. Now people are making them thick again so the fighter don't want them anymore. My great grandfather use to fight them he would not even go for your dogs because they would lose in a fight or stand up. He also had the older big APBT's for the family and hunting. He was a real dog man and if he was a live to dad he would not stand for how people like you think! I have all his old notes he had and it has a lot of information in it on or breed! By the way he was one of the most looked at breeder even today! John P. Colby was his name! I am done with this post and the people who think they know everything about this breed and Paws With Power.


That is the most disrespectful load of bullshit i have ever heard off and you have a LOT of nerve to even keep coming back.. Damn shame culling humans is illegal.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> oh my god did I miss a history lesson here?? Helen Keller was born in 1880... are you seriously sitting here telling me that there werent pitdogs in 1880.. or before.. that only til after they became "service dogs" did they start "making them smaller for fighting???????
> 
> cause I have REAL papers on my dogs from way before 1880.. another epic fail for you around TRUE KNOWLEDGE!!!


In modern form, try 1830s - 1850s.. LMFAO.. Not worth your time HJ..


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Is there really any reason to keep this thread open?I mean besides for entertainment to all of us that there are still people this stupid in the world...


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