# tips for starting a bandogge program



## tyler335 (Oct 11, 2012)

I have recently became interested in American bandogge mastiffs after having strictly pits for a long time. I think bandogges are a growing breed and I would like to contribute to that. I want to start my own bloodline of bandogge. I currently have a blue male 50% cane corso 50% bully pitbull and a all white female American bulldog. I plan to breed these two for my foundation blood. I will keep a puppy from that litter and breed that puppy with a neo mastiff and go from there. I am adding the American bulldog to sort of replace the pitbull. Any tips,ideas,comments or any in depth breeding guides are encouraged


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## Cain's Mom (Oct 25, 2012)

I am not a breeding experts and there are others who will chime in but there is no such thing as a bully pitbull. There are apbt, ambully, am staff, but no bully pitbull. More than likely you have an American Bully. If you post up peds of your dog others can help you to tell what exactly you have.

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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

Why do you want to breed? Do you work your dogs? Show them? What makes them worthy of being bred?

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## tyler335 (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm sorry I didn't say it right. I do know that an American bully is not a pitbull.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Breeding of dogs with the ultimate goal we call "purpose". This is not something that you throw 2 dogs together just because you own them. You need to understand the genetics and traits or you're just breeding mixes or mutts, and they are not anything you will be able to pass off as a pet. So be prepared to cull....ALOT! 
I can sit here and explained the crosses all day long but I will leave it up to you to do the research yourself. It can't compare to the little I actually know. There is tons of bandogge stuff here at gp, but I suggest you look into Dr. Swinford and his dogs. In today's standards, I think Chimera kennels has the exact recipe for the ultimate dog.He has shared tons of info and pics here. You may have to earn yourself access the the private forums for more advanced education but for now there's plenty of info in the public areas of the forum. 
You can start here
The Goldmine - Pitbulls : Go Pitbull Dog Forums


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## tyler335 (Oct 11, 2012)

My dogs have not been showed or anything yet. The male is only 8 months old and the female is 4 months old this is all for the future but my bandogge was bred by a local breeder not a backyard breeder or someone who just threw two dogs together. Both parents are great temperament and dad has been showed and I plan on registering him with the uca. My American bulldog is nkc registered with access to her pedigree beyond just her parents. So yes I plan to show eventually.


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## tyler335 (Oct 11, 2012)

Yes I am prepared to do extensive research before I do anything. I am not putting them together because I own them. I bought both of them with breeding already in mind. I've already started to do research and have plenty of time before the dogs are old enough


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

your gonna add to many different dogs and have a hell of a time isolating traits and basically everything will be a scatterbred mess.. American Bulldogs by way of Johnson took to many years to get all quirks out because he crossed in ENglish Bulldog, which is a pug mix of the 17th century and not a bulldog) and he crossed in the Mastiff (which in origin was a 125lbs Pit bull like chain dog, thus BOUND dog Bandog/Bandogge..) If you put Bandog in the search box, you can find a good amount of info here on GPB. 

There are already BLue Bandogs and they are Swinford Blues or Swinford Bandog... Infused and created by the Veterinarian Dr. Swinford who used Carver for his source of APBT blood. THey tested his stock just like you would game dogs before 1976. 

Chimera has Sentry Dogs which are Bandogs of this era bred at there finest.. They are APBT by way of Sorrells and a smidge of Hammonds(perhaps) with Tosa.. He has very fine bandogs and the best your gonna get.. 

If you want to get into bandogs.. then sterilize your two dogs.. and start with bandogs.. You have no idea the genetic slop you will get when crossing those two.. I can tell you thats how those Hippo like XL bullies come about that and breeding with whopper dogs.. 

Whopper is a APBT bloodline that is DDB influxed.. It was a import of now extinct blood for the DDB and the cross back into game dogs created awesome beasts and freaks of nature.. Most people dont know how to breed it or what they have so there is alot of whopper slop out there and a lot of OFRN dogs all slopped up with whopper traits. Whopper is a bandog as well and there are some fine whopper dogs in Oklahoma given you a 110-125lbs APBT Hulklike bandog or bulldog.. Bulldog for game and quarry, Bandog for men and quarry..  I've bred whopper up to 125lbs and down to 35lbs all off the same stock. 


Work defines these animals outside of DNA and well when we say DNA or Blood.. we mean the ENTIRE package, mental stability, agility, intelligence, heart lungs, etc... and you dont know any of this until you work your dog to its breaking point much like alaskan sled dogs... 


You can breed your dogs if you want, its a free country.. just when the offspring turn out an bite someone be sure you say you have MUTTS and DO NOT even USE the TERM PIT BULL.. Be sure to say they are a mix breed or mutts because thats what they are. Without a pedigree of genuine origin with the dogs, your two dogs are simply just bulldogs themselves... NOthing less.. nothing more.. 

As a breeder if you can't keep them all, you shouldn't be breeding.. Because its a good chance you could end up keeping half and responsible for rehousing the others as they cause problems for their owners..


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Post some pics! We love pics...


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

Unless your breeding for a working purpose you shouldn't be breeding. Just more mutts to go to shelters. As far as breeding bandogs my understanding you should start with one cross perfect it then possibly add something later. If not as said you will have a hell of a time with consistency. You can have mutts and still have consistency just knowing the gentics on every cross what it throws and then learning what those crosses throw together its all trial and error if your starting fresh. As Stan said if you want a bandog go to a reputable bandog breeder then you will prevent yourself from dealing with the genetic slop as he said.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Bandogs are for WORKING purpose, unless you have a working purpose and have been working with bandogs for at least 5 years, but 10 would be better, then do not try to breed dogs. Just mixing mixed bred dogs together doesn't make a bandog. It makes a mutt, nothing more nothing less. 

You base a foundation off of dogs that have been proven successful, not just whatever 2 dogs you have.

Breeding dogs is not a game and something to do for fun. It should have purpose and produce dogs that fit that purpose. Claiming that you want bandogs is not a purpose.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Everyone has given u sound advice so far. And I don't want to just repeat all that so I will say this... its safe to say all those dogmen of old who "created" a bloodline, did not set out to do that. They set out to breed the best damn dog they could for their purpose at hand. Weather that's the [], the hunt or the show. They picked a direction of purpose and went for broke!


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## Armando (Dec 26, 2012)

tyler335 said:


> I have recently became interested in American bandogge mastiffs after having strictly pits for a long time. I think bandogges are a growing breed and I would like to contribute to that. I want to start my own bloodline of bandogge. I currently have a blue male 50% cane corso 50% bully pitbull and a all white female American bulldog. I plan to breed these two for my foundation blood. I will keep a puppy from that litter and breed that puppy with a neo mastiff and go from there. I am adding the American bulldog to sort of replace the pitbull. Any tips,ideas,comments or any in depth breeding guides are encouraged


I talk to one of my buddy's every once and a while an he breeds them. I asked him about cane corso pitbull mixes and he told me that you shouldn't cross cane corsos into the mix because its a banndogge of its own. Does it make sense?

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## SteelRidgeKennels (Sep 6, 2010)

I agree with everything above...but wanted to add, I thought that bandogges were made for working purposes...hunting, schutz, etc.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

tyler335 said:


> Yes I am prepared to do extensive research before I do anything. I am not putting them together because I own them. I bought both of them with breeding already in mind. I've already started to do research and have plenty of time before the dogs are old enough


I'm not knockin you, I'm trying to give you the basic tools to give you the best results in something that has been failed at a billion times. Your dogs are young so you have plenty of time to make good decisions.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Cane corso, Presa (various strains), Douge DeBourdeaux, Bullmastiff, Boerboel, Tosa, Fila, etc... all are bandogs.. Bandog simply is working mastiff.. The original formats of all those dogs listed were so vicious they had to be bound by chain; in origin.








1890s Dogue De Bourdeaux last of the original strain before it was tainted with Bullmastiff (which came from early DDB origin) to go back into it in hopes of saving the breed.








An origin dogue throwback DDB, early import much like what was used in the whopper line. Which is why so many OFRN with whopper and Whopper look similar to this dog when bred correctly just on different size scales.

THis USED to be the Neopolitan Mastiff... 









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http://www.chimerakennels.com/dogspupsforsale.htm

http://mealerspitbullfarm.com/index.html
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^^^^^^^^^^ Thats what you need to start with and you need to have work aka purpose for the breed... IF You just wanna GIANT house dog... look for one of the current Dogue De Bourdeaux or English Mastiff.. they both are no where near the energy output of a genuine bandog.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

The simple fact you ask such questions is great however shows you have years to go before you hold the proper knowledge to even consider breeding anything, let alone an animal and program of which can turn into wash quicker than a blink of the eye..

When you combine gameness, guardian and high amounts of prey, sophistication, harder animals mentally and physically.. Genetics is your savior as without the knowledge of not only your foundation roots, foundation themselves and your clear visions, you will end up with cold dogs, unfit to be worked, unsound mind or body, etc.. The margin of error compared to that of success is paper thin.

Another question you must ask is what do you see with this vision that doesn't already exist? Very rarely does what you seek not already out there and it has ALL been done before thus you must learn from what has been done.. If it ain't there today you have to break down, genetically, what went wrong.. Which again, takes years to fully comprehend and learn what to look for so that you do not breed yourself back into the same corner of which killed off the animal previously.

Another thing is that as a breeder you must breed for yourself, not for someone else, thus you have to have proper financial stability, available funds, ability to use ALL stock off your yard.. It is a job of which few really have the full access and time for.

You will also notice much as FH has already pointed out, working stock Mastiffs AKA Bandogs mimic in appearance and mind that of Game Dogs, Bulldogs... APBTs.. GEMS of past and present, a reason for this as genetically cross and intertwine far more than the common person may truly realize.









Old English Dogge, rooted directly towards Danish Hound, War Mastiffs, modern wash that is of Great Danes.. One of the oldest of genetic foundations..










War Mastiff of Neo..



















Direct lack of fear regardless of weapon used, to the point sourced mind of gameness.. Tested, trialed and proven by man over centuries.. The ability to take down what needs to be, threat is no object.










Notice the near hound like structure..










Bulldog in traits, Mastiff by structure.. Put in basic










Old as you get of documents, what do you see? Notice the length of legs, depth of chest.. Wind, ability to hit long range targets with less ground noise making subjects unaware until contact.. Pure, instinctive.










Companionship with eyes and ears always on sight and targeting threats beyond that what a human may detect.. Man or animal, eager.










Again we go back to that of Bulldog.. A reason.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Dogo Argentino.. Bandog program of perfection.. Traditional stock, highest end catch dog there is.. Surpassing? Nothing.. Equal to? High end Bulldogs and very few programs of traditional stock Bandogs..

Two of the most predominant in that of creation? Game Dogs and NOT the wash of Danes that is commonly referred to, heavy crossing of DBH (danish boarhound pre-dane) and English Dogge (foundation of DBH... Bandog). OF which genetically near same to identical selection of history with similar usage crossing over and over


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Go back through the history books.. ALL established Bandog "lines" go back to the same lineage..

Many of these common yards of presas, corsos, etc.. WASH with TOO large of mass being carried.. As the saying goes with dogs, small get smaller large get larger..




























Stan heres one for you.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I had a lot of those old pics,, thank ya KM!! I appreciate those I didn't.. I like that last shot as well.. Great aspects of genetic lineage on the other side of the spectrum. Its sad that most don't realize the small pit bulldog stock is from the aluant which is from the fighting dog of gaul a direct import of and bred down from.. as is the Danish hound originally from the same stock as the fighting dog of gaul whis were also the original Neo of the same stock as the Fighting dog of Gaul.. for years dogs were exported from Gaul(FRANCE) to go back into roman and germanic dogs... they soon evolved they're own sub strains and became founding strains for sub strains of their own.. 


GREAT INFO KM.. AWESOME PICS and gathering of history!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

All Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven.. The value of this is seen more and more through those willing.

You take your Bulldogs and with very few exceptions such as the Ovcharka your Bandogs, you can trace them all back in relative short time periods back to the same Game Dogs and/or Bullbaiters and/or Gaul Dog.. Much before this it can start to get tricky and blurry, not documented as post Gaul thus beyond just simply guess work to the puzzles.

Much selectively bred same strains/substrains to develop own functions... Thus links back to function defines.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> All Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven.. The value of this is seen more and more through those willing.
> 
> You take your Bulldogs and with very few exceptions such as the Ovcharka your Bandogs, you can trace them all back in relative short time periods back to the same Game Dogs and/or Bullbaiters and/or Gaul Dog.. Much before this it can start to get tricky and blurry, not documented as post Gaul thus beyond just simply guess work to the puzzles.
> 
> Much selectively bred same strains/substrains to develop own functions... Thus links back to function defines.


Because they are all wolfdogs before that... there are large war and protection type wolf dogs and small endurance type wolf dogs .. intelligent aloof type herding wolfdogs.. this was the F1 and F2 generations of wolf dogs..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Because they are all wolfdogs before that... there are large war and protection type wolf dogs and small endurance type wolf dogs .. intelligent aloof type herding wolfdogs.. this was the F1 and F2 generations of wolf dogs..


:cheers:

When you were involved with Wolves did you experiment with selective breeding without crossing into your domestic? What was the outcome?

That would be a REAL treat to see on a genetic basis taking Wolves down in size or up, slowly changing mentality for function of that of domesticated strains/sub.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> :cheers:
> 
> When you were involved with Wolves did you experiment with selective breeding without crossing into your domestic? What was the outcome?
> 
> That would be a REAL treat to see on a genetic basis taking Wolves down in size or up, slowly changing mentality for function of that of domesticated strains/sub.


I had the opportunity of getting the wolves from homes who thought they wanted to do such things: WOLFX: GSD, Husky, Malemute, APBT, CHOW, and sled dogs that had been brought down south but got loose and labled wolf dogs, I had two sled dogs from Alaska. The best cross with WOLF was the CHOW.. I seen the dad and the mom was 50% alaskan timberwolf 50% private family of sled dog in AK founded primarily in wolf. Because I left for Hawaii and left her in care with my uncle, he let her get knocked up by his neighbors 85lbs Chow(they dont come like that very often anymore) .. the outcome was a laika type bear dog. Twins.. girls.. Phenominal.. This made sense because the CHOW is older than any other domestic breed of dog... and is bred directly off the wolf to look like a bear.. IT was a sled dog, hunting dog, and yes food.. but hey APBTs are food over there they dont take sides good working dogs mean great muscle which of course is meat. I kept one and she quickly became alpha of 4 wolfdogs and 2 wolves. I had one Artic Tundra wolf crossed with alaskan sled dog for the white dominance, and I had a 165lbs alaskan timber wolf, when I finally got Hooch caught the bulldog fever and placed all those except the chow wolf mut.

Yep... Bulldog or Bandog until otherwise proven..............


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> I had the opportunity of getting the wolves from homes who thought they wanted to do such things: WOLFX: GSD, Husky, Malemute, APBT, CHOW, and sled dogs that had been brought down south but got loose and labled wolf dogs, I had two sled dogs from Alaska. The best cross with WOLF was the CHOW.. I seen the dad and the mom was 50% alaskan timberwolf 50% private family of sled dog in AK founded primarily in wolf. Because I left for Hawaii and left her in care with my uncle, he let her get knocked up by his neighbors 85lbs Chow(they dont come like that very often anymore) .. the outcome was a laika type bear dog. Twins.. girls.. Phenominal.. This made sense because the CHOW is older than any other domestic breed of dog... and is bred directly off the wolf to look like a bear.. IT was a sled dog, hunting dog, and yes food.. but hey APBTs are food over there they dont take sides good working dogs mean great muscle which of course is meat. I kept one and she quickly became alpha of 4 wolfdogs and 2 wolves. I had one Artic Tundra wolf crossed with alaskan sled dog for the white dominance, and I had a 165lbs alaskan timber wolf, when I finally got Hooch caught the bulldog fever and placed all those except the chow wolf mut.
> 
> Yep... Bulldog or Bandog until otherwise proven..............


Got to spread the rep around some however excellent post! I remember a many of chow - wolf discussions we've had.

The most successful of versatile Bandogs is that of Bulldog lineage which is the most basic of foundation.

Good  in here for those in need of information or enlightenment.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

its all about the foundation... :cheers:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Traditional Tosas are worth mentioning here..

As well as a dog of which is a representation of when you play with genetics you play with fire.. CFD or pre Dogo if you will..










CFD was a strive to take a genetic down wind, turn into the superior Bandog by creating old world antics with Bulldog genetics. Many accounts documented of gentlemen whom ran across these animals to discover brute power and raw intention of destruction. Man. Dog. Animal. A fight was a fight to them.

Unfortunately, this was also the problem as genetics were all in place however the knowledge by hand, in order to preserve you must have the ability to set forth a consistent stability, otherwise it turns back in your face and when it does it isn't going to be something you'll forget.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> Traditional Tosas are worth mentioning here..
> 
> As well as a dog of which is a representation of when you play with genetics you play with fire.. CFD or pre Dogo if you will..
> 
> ...


Indeed Tosas are probably the best [] bandog which is why it reigns supreme in dogs 100lbs and over.. which allow NO apbt combatants. Great dogs..

Those CFD and some authentic Dogo stock today is very near the Game Keepers Night dog.. often white so they could see them at night.. Not by design but sure enough a spoof along the way. Boers being the other end of that spectrum.. Authentic working boers outta S.Africa are essentially the BULLMASTIFF in all original form.. not being SHOWBRED...


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Indeed Tosas are probably the best [] bandog which is why it reigns supreme in dogs 100lbs and over.. which allow NO apbt combatants. Great dogs..
> 
> Those CFD and some authentic Dogo stock today is very near the Game Keepers Night dog.. often white so they could see them at night.. Not by design but sure enough a spoof along the way. Boers being the other end of that spectrum.. Authentic working boers outta S.Africa are essentially the BULLMASTIFF in all original form.. not being SHOWBRED...


Problem is when you don't have the ability to keep or provide handlers that are in need, shit back fires and the dog goes extinct as it stands.

Tosas are great guardians as well as matching Mastiffs however their size hinders in real world application. If they grab you sheer size and strength alone will bring you down, ain't escaping that  however in terms of function, unless you stumble upon a very old yard it is difficult to find one in which can be as versatile physically as they are mentally. Of course that goes with just about any breed, you have your wash and then your "true to form" stock.

White is traditional however i have always stirred clear, black, buckskin, brindle.. The ideal coat colors for function, blend well at night or day with surroundings and far more superior in ability to accomplish without being seen.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

can't give rep.. last sentence is where I stand as well.. I like a cowdog now and then but Buckskin and brindle are what I stick with just as it turns out. Havent had a black dog without brindled coat or blk and tan..


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)




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## jimxxx (Dec 5, 2013)




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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


>


:goodpost:

That's an interesting group, not sure if you caught on stan but it appears there is a combination of English dogge and boar hound eras showing in the genetics.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

^^^ I did.. the head and the gated hips really point out to that.. I can't resist to post these old photos knowing who close to the original your goodies are.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Awesome pics of old... few I have few I dnt.. great historic images though. Reallt shows how far breeds have come.


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