# Bloodlines?



## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

When I got my puppy, the breeder said that she is mostly OG Greyline, with a little bit of Chaingang and Butthead. What does this really tell me about her? Anything?


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I think the OG part is him just tryin to sound cool. Greyline is Amstaff if im not mistaken. I haven't heard of Chaingang. But Butthead I have heard of but I can't remember if its AmStaff or not. 

I also can't remember if u said u have a ped or not?


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

I have papers for her, registered with the UKC. Shes definitely an APBT, as the Greyline is an APBT bloodline that started in California. The guy had one of the original puppies go to his brother, who was stationed in Japan and when he came back he really got the bloodline going. However, I do know that they are considered to be one of the rarer bloodlines out there and seldom seen these days. I just don't know what it really says about the actual dog.


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

actually I just did some more research and it says "Greyline pit bulls are bred for working ability, speed and agility. Such animals are often gray and white in color, and have widely spaced front legs." This makes sense because she is unreasonably athletic. Obviously pits in general are athletic but this little girl literally runs circles around almost any dog she plays with.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Anyone selling dogs with "OG" in the name tells you they are not Old School.
Which translates into they are peddlers of cur dogs.
By that I mean, they are claiming to have what they do not. 
Not that they are bad dogs, just not traditional (real) ApBT's.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

Greyline originated as Am Staff and from what I've read is a foundation line for Gotti dogs. Butthead is from the Chaingang line and is also American Bully. This is all info I've gleened from threads read here. Created by folks with experience. 
I believe you have an American Bully. Keep in mind UKC registers American Bully as APBT, regardless of bloodline.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

NYBlueNose said:


> actually I just did some more research and it says "Greyline pit bulls are bred for working ability, speed and agility. Such animals are often gray and white in color, and have widely spaced front legs." This makes sense because she is unreasonably athletic. Obviously pits in general are athletic but this little girl literally runs circles around almost any dog she plays with.


This sounds like a made up quote from a random online person.

Greyline, Chaingang, and Butthead all started as APBT lines and even though they still come UKC papered most are all Amstaff in type now or American Bully.

My boy Scorch is UKC as well however his bloodlines are AmStaff and thats what I consider him. He still competes as a UKC APBT, but I know what his lines are regardless.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

EckoMac said:


> Greyline originated as Am Staff and from what I've read is a foundation line for Gotti dogs. Butthead is from the Chaingang line and is also American Bully. This is all info I've gleened from threads read here. Created by folks with experience.
> I believe you have an American Bully. Keep in mind UKC registers American Bully as APBT, regardless of bloodline.


That's the same way I got what I know. I remember reading a thread where Mach0 talked about Butthead, and I know that he had bullies. And I think it might have been Indie who talked about Greyline. But again I am no bloodline historian, just an observer who would like to learn more.


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

Goemon said:


> Anyone selling dogs with "OG" in the name tells you they are not Old School.
> Which translates into they are peddlers of cur dogs.
> By that I mean, they are claiming to have what they do not.
> Not that they are bad dogs, just not traditional (real) ApBT's.


You created this entire wild assumption based on two letters? The guy is actually one of the more reputable in New York. One person could say it's "OG Greyline" and the next 30 will think that's what it is. The name doesn't change the dog and the greyline bloodline in her is absolutely confirmed.

She could definitely be AmStaff but her body profile doesn't fit the American Bully. That doesn't mean she isn't one, but she doesn't look like any I've ever seen or look the way they are always defined. I saw both parents: the dad was a 103 pound blue nose and her mom was 85 pounds. She's only 62, lol. AmStaff makes a lot more sense with her than American Bully, but I'm not ruling it out yet.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

No way it's AmStaff if it's 103lbs. Unless its extremely overweight which I doubt. 103 and 85lb blue dogs sound like Ambullies lol. Now just remember genetics are a tricky thing and some Bully breeders have indeed admitted to mix breeding, hence the huge leap in weight and structure. Your dog could end up looking more like a grandparent or great grandparent rather than her own parents. Genetics are a funny thing. Then you get into mixing breeds and you always get one or two odd balls out of the bunch.


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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

103 pounds and 85 pounds? Definitely sounds like am bullies. And a 'blue nose' is just the color of the nose. It has nothing to do with anything else. Also, There are smaller am bullies. So just because she's 62 pounds and not over done doesn't mean she's not an am bully. The blood she has in her is bully blood, and there's nothing wrong with that. So why get defensive or try to deny it?


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

AmBulls are interesting in the fact that u could get an XL dog out of a litter of 2 pocket dogs. i think u need to look over the AmBully classes.... http://theabkcdogs.org/breeds/american-bully/classic/


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

Sorry I didn't realize I left it set up to think the mom was blue too, she was actually a "champagne" or "fawn" color, gorgeous dog.

Just spoke with the breeder, the father was Greyline, as close to 100% as you'll see these days. The mom was half butthead, have chaingang.

I've been doing quite a bit of research and half the stuff says APBT and the other half says AmStaff. I'll have to keep looking because one person simply saying "this is what it is" doesn't really mean much. Especially when everyone is saying something different, lol.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

NYBlueNose said:


> Sorry I didn't realize I left it set up to think the mom was blue too, she was actually a "champagne" or "fawn" color, gorgeous dog.
> .


Champagne or Blue fawn are still blue. Just dilutes of it.


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## Kenaii (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm gonna just come right out and say this.
You have an Am Staff, not an APBT.
Out of the lines you listed, not ONE is an APBT line.
Greyline is Am Staff, but also used in American Bully Lines.
If the dog in your Icon is the one we're talking about then there is no way you have an APBT.


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

Kenaii said:


> I'm gonna just come right out and say this.
> You have an Am Staff, not an APBT.
> Out of the lines you listed, not ONE is an APBT line.
> Greyline is Am Staff, but also used in American Bully Lines.
> If the dog in your Icon is the one we're talking about then there is no way you have an APBT.


You say this like there was an argument about it, lol. I don't really care which she is to be honest, I simply started looking into it out of curiosity. It still doesn't change anything about her except a name on a piece of paper. It 's still good to know and I'm glad I checked it out. Thank you for the information.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

NYBlueNose said:


> You created this entire wild assumption based on two letters? The guy is actually one of the more reputable in New York. One person could say it's "OG Greyline" and the next 30 will think that's what it is. The name doesn't change the dog and the greyline bloodline in her is absolutely confirmed.
> 
> She could definitely be AmStaff but her body profile doesn't fit the American Bully. That doesn't mean she isn't one, but she doesn't look like any I've ever seen or look the way they are always defined. I saw both parents: the dad was a 103 pound blue nose and her mom was 85 pounds. She's only 62, lol. AmStaff makes a lot more sense with her than American Bully, but I'm not ruling it out yet.


103?+85?=62?

Hmmm....you got played. 
Or, those weren't the real parents of the dog.

Anyway you look at it, call it whatever name you will, you don't have an ApBT.

She's Blue? That is second thing that confirms she is not an ApBT.

But whoever named the dogs with those bloodline names has clearly never been behind the white line in the corner of the []. 
Which also means the dogs they are using had been mixed, diluted, and not tested.

As the old saying goes, "The bigger they are, the bigger chance they are a cur." 
oke:


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

Goemon said:


> 103?+85?=62?
> 
> Hmmm....you got played.
> Or, those weren't the real parents of the dog.
> ...


1- The vet and breeder both told me that getting her spayed early would significantly stunt her growth - she was spayed at 6 months - and they were both right. The second smallest dog out of that litter of 9, is 82 pounds right now. None of them were fixed until the 1 year mark.
2- We already established that she's an AmStaff, so you're a little late and should go back and read the thread. 
3- I saw the parents before and after she gave birth to the puppies.
4- You are contradicting yourself by saying that those bloodlines are inaccurate because she's not an APBT.... those bloodlines are the REASON she isn't an APBT. 
5 - The advice given by others was already taken into account and thanked for. 
6- You have clearly proven that you have no idea what you are talking about and are making extraordinary assumptions based on little to no information at all, so keep it to yourself.


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## Pits4Lyfe (Sep 29, 2012)

Goemon said:


> 103?+85?=62?
> 
> Hmmm....you got played.
> Or, those weren't the real parents of the dog.
> ...


No offense mate, but the only person you are making look bad... is yourself. The other forum members already established - in a significantly more professional and educated way - the answer this chap was looking for. Furthermore, you are truly stretching too far from reality with this ridiculous stories you've created about something you know nothing about. Do you know the breeder? The dog? The owner? Have you seen ANY of these with your own eyes? Do you know the history of all of these? But lastly and more importantly... are you a canine professional in any sense of the word?

I am not trying to bash you mate, but you are posting very, very negative comments to and about a person and their dog, when they were looking for nothing more than helpful information, not a crude and unfounded argument.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Do you have the pedigree? If not you cannot prove she is an AST no matter what you say.
You said earlier your ped says she is an ApBT. The weights you gave rule that out. So is the dog paper hung?
Oh and then now its an Am Staff? Why is that? Because others told you so? So you're contradicting the papers?

Well it seems you didn't take the advice that was offered to you in the first place. 
I didn't contradict myself at all. You just have a shallow mind. :snow:


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I've gone my rounds with u Goemon and im not about to start that up again. Lol. My only 2 cents here is in the statement "103+85=62?".... who knows? Im sure that the parents were overweight for their size. Its amazing what people think is acceptable for weight. Odin is down(!) to 73 lbs and people look at me crazy when I say he's still fat lol. 65 ish is my goal


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

NYBlueNose said:


> 1- The vet and breeder both told me that getting her spayed early would significantly stunt her growth - she was spayed at 6 months - and they were both right. The second smallest dog out of that litter of 9, is 82 pounds right now. None of them were fixed until the 1 year mark.
> 2- We already established that she's an AmStaff, so you're a little late and should go back and read the thread.
> 3- I saw the parents before and after she gave birth to the puppies.
> 4- You are contradicting yourself by saying that those bloodlines are inaccurate because she's not an APBT.... those bloodlines are the REASON she isn't an APBT.
> ...


That is actually inaccurate to say an early spay/neuter will stunt growth. My boy was neutered early as well and because he wasn't producing the normal hormones during his "puberty" stage, his body didn't know when to stop growing. He came from two dogs in the lower 50's and when not conditioned sits at around 70lbs. His highest weight was 72.3lbs and was far from fat. 
Vets will push early spay and neuter because they want our money. IMO it is way better to let them mature naturally before spay/neuter.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

NYBlueNose said:


> 1- The vet and breeder both told me that getting her spayed early would significantly stunt her growth - she was spayed at 6 months - and they were both right. The second smallest dog out of that litter of 9, is 82 pounds right now. None of them were fixed until the 1 year mark.
> 2- We already established that she's an AmStaff, so you're a little late and should go back and read the thread.
> 3- I saw the parents before and after she gave birth to the puppies.
> 4- You are contradicting yourself by saying that those bloodlines are inaccurate because she's not an APBT.... those bloodlines are the REASON she isn't an APBT.
> ...





Goemon said:


> Haha, but isn't debate a little fun at times?
> 
> Btw, that was cleared up about the 62 pounds.
> OP fixed dog and didn't listen. Fixing a dog early affects it's hormones and development for life.
> ...


I don't know about not being able to reach full potential once altered, someone should tell Dosia that  lol. IMO it doesn't really effect their working ability at all. Shoot look at Lisa's dog Tempest. She's a bad little dog and works her little butt of. That one bitch has more titles that I've seen on a few people's whole yards. She's spayed as well


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

kg420 said:


> I don't know about not being able to reach full potential once altered, someone should tell Dosia that  lol. IMO it doesn't really effect their working ability at all. Shoot look at Lisa's dog Tempest. She's a bad little dog and works her little butt of. That one bitch has more titles that I've seen on a few people's whole yards. She's spayed as well


Lol I completely agree with you. I've had breeders, trainers, and countless "advocates" for the breed tell me that she should either compete in shows or competitions. It would be very difficult for her to get even healthier than she already is at a mere 14 months. I don't need or even want a 100 pound pit, I'm more than satisfied with what I have. And yeah, the breeder was NOT happy when I said I got her fixed. However, I am not in the business of breeding animals and therefore, getting her spayed was the right thing to do.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

NYBlueNose said:


> You speak like a maniacal fool who spends too much time on the internet and watching FOX News. Fix your grammar before you continue your side job as an internet preacher, peddling your insanely radical nonsense. Furthermore, your comments about "true finishers" and "two pump chumps" make a very, VERY strong case for a person who is fighting their dogs. I know the entire history of the breed and since this was not in discussion at all, I'm not even sure where you came up with this. Spend some time in the real world, it'll do you some good, because you're making yourself look like a complete and utter lunatic.


If you truly knew the real history of these dogs then you'd understand what you have any why it's not an APBT.


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## Pits4Lyfe (Sep 29, 2012)

kg420 said:


> If you truly knew the real history of these dogs then you'd understand what you have any why it's not an APBT.


He already clarified that it is in actuality...an AmStaff....... Also, the history of the APBT has nothing to do with these bloodlines or how they evolved over time through breeding. Most people and quite a few breeders, don't even pay attention to bloodlines because technically - all pit bulls are mutts. Every single one of these dogs was inevitably bred with countless other dogs and breeds somewhere down the line.

I am beginning to wonder - already - if I joined the right forum. It seems like nobody is reading the entire thread. If there are more members like this "Goemon", I'd rather work elsewhere. This clown is completely out of line, has absolutely nothing to back up his absurd accusations, and is rambling on and on and on like a typical sidewalk end-of-the-world conspirator. I've never seen such wild accusations based on such little knowledge.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

NYBlueNose said:


> Lol I completely agree with you. I've had breeders, trainers, and countless "advocates" for the breed tell me that she should either compete in shows or competitions. It would be very difficult for her to get even healthier than she already is at a mere 14 months. I don't need or even want a 100 pound pit, I'm more than satisfied with what I have. And yeah, the breeder was NOT happy when I said I got her fixed. However, I am not in the business of breeding animals and therefore, getting her spayed was the right thing to do.


Well now that's she's spayed you can never show her in confirmation. She can only do fun shows, possibly the reason the breeder wanted her intact, so she could show. That being said, there are many other positive sports you can do with her that don't require her to be intact. You can get her LP, limited privlage, and compete in weight pull. Dock diving is something really fun as well. I do dock diving with my boy and he has a blast with it.


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## Pits4Lyfe (Sep 29, 2012)

Dock diving is one of the most entertaining canine sports I've ever watched.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

so much misinformation here its a damn joke color doesnt mean anything. just because its blue doesnt mean anything. what matters is blood. you have an american bully by blood.

theres also no opinion, it is scientific FACT that fixing a dog early will stunt its growth

to the OPs original question...you should join an am bully forum to learn more about them or wait for pitbullmamanatl to chime in.

the end- there isnt any reason to drag this thread on longer


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Pits4Lyfe said:


> He already clarified that it is in actuality...an AmStaff....... Also, the history of the APBT has nothing to do with these bloodlines or how they evolved over time through breeding. *Most people and quite a few breeders, don't even pay attention to bloodlines because technically - all pit bulls are mutts. Every single one of these dogs was inevitably bred with countless other dogs and breeds somewhere down the line*.
> 
> I am beginning to wonder - already - if I joined the right forum. It seems like nobody is reading the entire thread. If there are more members like this "Goemon", I'd rather work elsewhere. This clown is completely out of line, has absolutely nothing to back up his absurd accusations, and is rambling on and on and on like a typical sidewalk end-of-the-world conspirator. I've never seen such wild accusations based on such little knowledge.


absolutely false and if thats some "breeders" way of thinking then they have no business breeding dogs


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Pits4Lyfe said:


> He already clarified that it is in actuality...an AmStaff....... Also, the history of the APBT has nothing to do with these bloodlines or how they evolved over time through breeding. Most people and quite a few breeders, don't even pay attention to bloodlines because technically - all pit bulls are mutts. Every single one of these dogs was inevitably bred with countless other dogs and breeds somewhere down the line.
> 
> I am beginning to wonder - already - if I joined the right forum. It seems like nobody is reading the entire thread. If there are more members like this "Goemon", I'd rather work elsewhere. This clown is completely out of line, has absolutely nothing to back up his absurd accusations, and is rambling on and on and on like a typical sidewalk end-of-the-world conspirator. I've never seen such wild accusations based on such little knowledge.


Actually it kind of does. Since the AmStaff came from the APBT and many were duel registered at the time, you will actuall see which lines became what and where they all evolved from. The AKC was started so they could get away from the fighting aspect and do shows, but the dogs did indeed come from place. I hope that makes more sense.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

NYBlueNose said:


> You speak like a maniacal fool who spends too much time on the internet and watching FOX News. Fix your grammar before you continue your side job as an internet preacher, peddling your insanely radical nonsense. Furthermore, your comments about "true finishers" and "two pump chumps" make a very, VERY strong case for a person who is fighting their dogs. I know the entire history of the breed and since this was not in discussion at all, I'm not even sure where you came up with this. Spend some time in the real world, it'll do you some good, because you're making yourself look like a complete and utter lunatic.


Well these are "Pit Dog's" not poopsie doodles we are talking about.
I am in the real world....and HAVE SEEN the real world.

But in the end, you're just a peddlers pawn, LOL. 
FYI, I don't watch TV or surf the web like a ************.

And trust me, if you knew my job, you wouldn't have said that........


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

zohawn said:


> so much misinformation here its a damn joke color doesnt mean anything. just because its blue doesnt mean anything. what matters is blood. you have an american bully by blood.
> 
> theres also no opinion, it is scientific FACT that fixing a dog early will stunt its growth
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more, so thank you for the words. I started the thread to look into this out of curiousity. Then it gets flooded with ridiculous garbage by people looking for an easy outlet for their anger.

As for her true breed, half the evidence says "100% AmStaff", the other claims "100% AmBully". So at this point it's just getting a little bit too ridiculous because it's being based more on opinion than fact. Nobody is providing anything to back their statements up, just simply stating how it is (from their own mind).


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

zohawn said:


> so much misinformation here its a damn joke color doesnt mean anything. just because its blue doesnt mean anything. what matters is blood. you have an american bully by blood.
> 
> theres also no opinion, it is scientific FACT that fixing a dog early will stunt its growth
> 
> ...


I thought that as well for a long time until I got Dosia. If his growth was stunted how freakin big would he be if not altered? Now it may just be he takes after the older dogs in his family, it was said that during one show Alligator was in the mid to high 60's and his opponent was around 10 heavier. Who knows, nothing is absolute, but I personally don't feel his growth was stunted at all. Shoot he's at a good weight now and still 10 heavier than his parents.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

kg420 said:


> I don't know about not being able to reach full potential once altered, someone should tell Dosia that  lol. IMO it doesn't really effect their working ability at all. Shoot look at Lisa's dog Tempest. She's a bad little dog and works her little butt of. That one bitch has more titles that I've seen on a few people's whole yards. She's spayed as well


For the record KG, fixed dogs have been known to quit (pre-76).
It takes a sort of fire out of them.
That is why some never even studded dogs out until they were retired.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

kg420 said:


> I thought that as well for a long time until I got Dosia. If his growth was stunted how freakin big would he be if not altered? Now it may just be he takes after the older dogs in his family, it was said that during one show Alligator was in the mid to high 60's and his opponent was around 10 heavier. Who knows, nothing is absolute, but I personally don't feel his growth was stunted at all. Shoot he's at a good weight now and still 10 heavier than his parents.


he couldve gotten lucky but to the majority fixing early will stunt.

and nyblue, i sent a pm to lauren (pitbullmamanatl) she has true bully knowledge and is a real expert with experience etc. so she should drop by this thread today


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## Bear813 (Aug 28, 2012)

NYBlueNose said:


> Glad someone else noticed the word choices in this post as well.


Yea I know this guy is unbelievable lol smh :/

Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

NYBlueNose said:


> Couldn't agree more, so thank you for the words. I started the thread to look into this out of curiousity. Then it gets flooded with ridiculous garbage by people looking for an easy outlet for their anger.
> 
> As for her true breed, half the evidence says "100% AmStaff", the other claims "100% AmBully". So at this point it's just getting a little bit too ridiculous because it's being based more on opinion than fact. Nobody is providing anything to back their statements up, just simply stating how it is (from their own mind).


I think there is just some confusion. See the Ambully was created with Staff and APBT blood, in the beginning. Much like how some APBT lines turned AmStaff, some AmStaff lines have now become Bully. Now say you have a dog who is RE, while most the new RE is indeed Bully, there are still dogs out there who have RE in them that are not Bullies. Because they were bred in the same direction and didn't go Bully you will have dogs of different breeds with the same foundation blood. The confusion comes from where the separatin is. I hope this makes a bit more sense.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Pits4Lyfe said:


> He already clarified that it is in actuality...an AmStaff....... Also, the history of the APBT has nothing to do with these bloodlines or how they evolved over time through breeding. Most people and quite a few breeders, don't even pay attention to bloodlines because technically - all pit bulls are mutts. Every single one of these dogs was inevitably bred with countless other dogs and breeds somewhere down the line.
> 
> I am beginning to wonder - already - if I joined the right forum. It seems like nobody is reading the entire thread. If there are more members like this "Goemon", I'd rather work elsewhere. This clown is completely out of line, has absolutely nothing to back up his absurd accusations, and is rambling on and on and on like a typical sidewalk end-of-the-world conspirator. I've never seen such wild accusations based on such little knowledge.


Pits4lyfe??? You're the damn clown to call the *American (pit) Bull Terrier* "pits." Amatuer hour 101 it appears.
Damn, you sure talk it...call me a clown to my face.......

Mutts? Are you a fool? This breed is comprised of various fighting breeds from around the world.
As with anything in the world, when it reaches America, it gets made better, whether horses or dogs.

This NY Doggy came here saying their dog was an ApBT.
Now says it is an Am Staff, yet claims the papers say ApBT.
If that's not false advertising, IDK what is. 
:snap:


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Goemon said:


> For the record KG, fixed dogs have been known to quit (pre-76).
> It takes a sort of fire out of them.
> That is why some never even studded dogs out until they were retired.


Oh I know, I'm just saying that just cause their fixed doesn't make them useless. I got into it with someone in the past who said I'd never be able to get this dog to work or do much now and he's pretty much useless. He may have had more fire if not altered, but definitely not a useless dog.


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

Goemon said:


> Pits4lyfe??? You're the damn clown to call the *American (pit) Bull Terrier* "pits." Amatuer hour 101 it appears.
> Damn, you sure talk it...call me a clown to my face.......
> 
> Mutts? Are you a fool? This breed is comprised of various fighting breeds from around the world.
> ...


Maybe you should look into Reading 101. She was registered as an APBT, and then several people commented about how their own dogs are registered as one thing but are in all actuality, another.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

NYBluenose choose if your going to post as this name or pit4lyfe.. You can't keep both accounts..



Settle this thread down. KG is cleaning don't make her do it again. Goemon is just telling you how it is. If you don't like what he has to say don't reply to him. It's not hard.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Ok carry on. A debate is totally fine but anymore  and this thread is toast!!


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

kg420 said:


> Oh I know, I'm just saying that just cause their fixed doesn't make them useless. I got into it with someone in the past who said I'd never be able to get this dog to work or do much now and he's pretty much useless. He may have had more fire if not altered, but definitely not a useless dog.


I think in some ways a dog can be better to work with being altered, since this isn't the old days anymore. 
They don't get distracted by specific smells, LOL.

And to Zohawn and Big Bad Bear, stfu yourselves......

But you people probably support the likes of Diane Jessup, who set up Pat Patrick.
Then, when he won the case, and she had his dogs....instead of giving them back, she destroyed them.
How pathetic.....


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Goemon said:


> I think in some ways a dog can be better to work with being altered, since this isn't the old days anymore.
> They don't get distracted by specific smells, LOL.
> 
> And to Zohawn and Big Bad Bear, stfu yourselves......
> ...


you dont even know my name and you making huge ASSumptions like that? lol

heres the kicker, and its something you already know- im lookin out for YOU and you DOGS, i dont want to see either locked up or killed. thats a fact


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Goemon said:


> I think in some ways a dog can be better to work with being altered, since this isn't the old days anymore.
> They don't get distracted by specific smells, LOL.
> 
> And to Zohawn and Big Bad Bear, stfu yourselves......
> ...


 that was so freakin sad. Those dogs should have got to go home, not burried.  I've got a few choice words for that cow myself 

Oh man I know what you mean. Last year when Holly and I went to nationals in LA this ahole brings a bitch in heat and put her on the WP track. The next two males to pull stopped dead center of the track to smell where she had sat down. I was so pissed and I wasn't even pulling any dogs. Well Lisa let me help out with Siren, Monsoon, and Barca, but yea I was so furious that they even let him hook that bitch up in the first place.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Well this thread certainly spiraled outta control. I just wanted to say thanks Goemon for the chicken tip. And @the whole NYBlueNose/Pits4lyfe thing.... wow u had to make an alter ego to back urself up? That sounds a lil ... odd. 

Anywho, I just want to say that hardly any of us know each other personally... and what Goemon does or doesn't do with his dogs is his business. My opinion of him (even if its not true) was that he was and old man who might have had some experience with true doggers pre 1976 and that he's prolly forgotten more knowledge than some of us may ever hope to have. He cares about this breed and just doesn't want to see an Am Bully or AST get called an APBT. No matter what the name on the page says, it comes down to bloodlines and ability. Point blank.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Yup. A lot of old timers, and new ones , find it totally offensive to call a bully an APBT.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

zohawn said:


> you dont even know my name and you making huge ASSumptions like that? lol
> 
> heres the kicker, and its something you already know- im lookin out for YOU and you DOGS, i dont want to see either locked up or killed. thats a fact


Perhaps there was a misunderstanding? IDK. 
But one rule I follow, to the best of my ability, is "Thou shalt not assume, because is makes an *ASS* of* U *and* ME*.
And that rule counts for dogs...
If I buy a dog that is said to be an ApBT, I want to know, not assume. 
In Japan things that are illegal here are not illegal there. Same for Dominican Republic.
I obey the law of the land where I live. But I have had accidents once or twice, when away from home,
and they serve as a constant reminder of just what I have.
Dog parks are out of the question for me, LOL.

Btw, the reason I never post my dogs pics is because there are headhunters out there after the old bloodlines. 
Bloodlines that have proven themselves for many decades.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I just saw some crap on Facebook about wanting to kill all the dogs bred from [] dogs  that would kill off so many good working dogs from people who have done nothing wrong.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

kg420 said:


> I just saw some crap on Facebook about wanting to kill all the dogs bred from [] dogs  that would kill off so many good working dogs from people who have done nothing wrong.


That's kind of sad in a way...[] dogs are NOT the dogs attacking people.
That falls on the BYB's....


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

kg420 said:


> I just saw some crap on Facebook about wanting to kill all the dogs bred from [] dogs  that would kill off so many good working dogs from people who have done nothing wrong.


a lot of the dogs today are bred down from the box. most of the terrier breeds etc


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I know right. I've read the stories of how old Jeep would play with kids, mostly a 2 year old. He wrestled and was as rough as any two year old and that dog loved every minute of it. He loved his kids.


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## NYBlueNose (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm very confused about the comment of having two accounts. How can you have two accounts? And I certainly can't speak for someone else. I don't know who that is or where he's from. I teach elementary, I'm not a professional dog trainer, if I was, I wouldn't be on here asking questions, lol. I do a lot of volunteer work with dogs, but that doesn't make me an expert. I'm here to learn, period.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

NYBlueNose said:


> I'm very confused about the comment of having two accounts. How can you have two accounts? And I certainly can't speak for someone else. I don't know who that is or where he's from. I teach elementary, I'm not a professional dog trainer, if I was, I wouldn't be on here asking questions, lol. I do a lot of volunteer work with dogs, but that doesn't make me an expert. I'm here to learn, period.


The bot picked it up. It's showing both accounts are being used from one computer. Meaning you either made a second account, or a friend is posting from your computer. One of the two.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

kg420 said:


> The bot picked it up. It's showing both accounts are being used from one computer. Meaning you either made a second account, or a friend is posting from your computer. One of the two.


:goodpost: Holly wouldn't make such accusations without her reasons.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

We get alerts from the spam bot lol. There's this little thing called an IP address


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

We have have no bots, I am just gifted with the Queens sight and see and know all.. Muhahahahahahahaha  Yes they are both your accounts  Pretending they are not, just makes you look worse lmao.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

American_Pit13 said:


> We have have no bots, I am just gifted with the Queens sight and see and know all.. Muhahahahahahahaha  Yes they are both your accounts  Pretending they are not, just makes you look worse lmao.


:goodpost:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Hackers maybe :rofl: :rofl:
Next thing ya know there will be a pic of Juno posted, ooops I mean DuMae :rofl: funny how people think these things cane be figured out super easily.


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

This thread is hilarious. Just had to say that. Thanks everyone for the great laugh I just had!


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

No problem MSK 

And [email protected] Juno! Some people.....


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

:rofl: :rofl: I have been continuously been cracking up at this thread all day. Most often with me saying, "OMG Babe read this!" followed by much giggling from Ryan and I both XD


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

This was entertaining


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Yes, very entertaining. I've enjoyed it very much. Get 'em Holly!


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> Well this thread certainly spiraled outta control. I just wanted to say thanks Goemon for the chicken tip. And @the whole NYBlueNose/Pits4lyfe thing.... wow u had to make an alter ego to back urself up? That sounds a lil ... odd.
> 
> Anywho, I just want to say that hardly any of us know each other personally... and what Goemon does or doesn't do with his dogs is his business. My opinion of him (even if its not true) was that he was and old man who might have had some experience with true doggers pre 1976 and that he's prolly forgotten more knowledge than some of us may ever hope to have. He cares about this breed and just doesn't want to see an Am Bully or AST get called an APBT. No matter what the name on the page says, it comes down to bloodlines and ability. Point blank.


Must have missed this post yesterday in the heat of the moment.

You're welcome, Odin.

Gee, I seem like an old man??? LOL....
As with anyone who knows a thing or two about these dogs, I was simply lucky enough to meet the right people.
Many may find me rude or senseless, but I assure you, I am WAY more lenient than those who taught me. 
First thing I learned was to never use the language of the fools who have no idea about this breed,
whether they are new pet owners of the breed brainwashed by false media,
or the worst of the bunch, the wanna be dogmen of the inner city who ruined the breed reputation. 
The worst thing out there today are the breeders who have no knowledge of these dogs,
that pawn them off onto the unknowing. Then these unknowing owners decide they want to breed.
And so the cycle continues.

Several old time dogmen have told me that part of the blame for this problem lies on former dogmen.
When the 1976 Animal Welfare Act came out, there were yards of up to one hundred dogs.
Since they didn't want prison, and couldn't care for the dogs with the sport over, they sold them...and to the WRONG people.
On the other side, some have told me the sport became too public, with the magazines and all.
So they set themselves up, when foolish people had the absurd idea these dogs were abused, forced to fight.
It would have been much better for the breed had the dogs never gone public. I really believe that.
Because in the end, the saying is true...there are no bad dogs just bad owners. 
What idiot can expect a Pit Dog to stay in the yard when old Brutus the junkyard dog runs by?

I see so many young kids today who think they have the baddest dog on the block,
massive head and all, not knowing their big headed dogs are cur dogs.
They fail to see that the 80+ pound mutts they have would be at a disadvantage, and be off balance with their heads.
They fail to see that those massive muscles will only exhaust the dogs.
They fail to realize that while they think they look cool, real folks who know dogs find their dogs a big joke...
While these kids laugh at true Pit Dogs that weigh a mere 35-45 pounds...
and those little dogs would finish off their big mutts in ten minutes or less.

But all this while dogs are being bred with the idea that they are ApBT's. 
Until the average pet owner has even a basic idea of what these dogs really are, this will continue,
as will the shelters, rescues, and the bad media.

I honestly respect people when they admit they have a mixed breed, with ApBT blood in it.
I respect honest pet owners that know what they have. I have no problem with AST's, bullies, whatever. 
But when some fool has the nerve to bring one of them big headed massive "Atomic dogs" (LOL, sorry if the laughter is loud!),
and tells the world, "This is my ApBT!" My first reaction isn't against the person themselves,
but the idiot who bred the damn dog and sold it as such. These are false breeders.
Then, a dog mixed with cane corso's, or American Bulldogs bites somebody...
Guess who gets the blame? Yep, the ApBT!
Same with AST bites. When one of them bites, and it is an ApBT that gets the blame, does the Am Staff crowd make the confession?
Hell no they don't...they keep the blame on "the notorious ApBT."


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Goemon said:


> Must have missed this post yesterday in the heat of the moment.
> 
> You're welcome, Odin.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:
X10 
One of the best posts in the thread!!! It's so freakin true too. A very small portion of people actually know what's what and who's who. 100+ lbs is a joke. The biggest dog I've ever read about being in the box was a show with Plumber's Alligator. The way I remember it was this was a heavy weight Mach where Alligator was in mid 60's and his opponent almost 10 heavier. Those were the real heavyweight dog, not 100+. This whole bigger is better mentality is completely ridiculous! Bigger dogs can't move as well as the smaller ones with all their bulk. Take Dosia for example. He got but by a snake and his paw got infected. We had to take him in to get puss drained from it and then had to go on crate rest. Not being able to work and do our normal routine he gained a bit of weight. He wasn't fat persay, but he was much bulkier than normal. Coming off crate rest he was 72.3lbs and and a bit slow. As we got ready for Splash Dogs I had him on a good feed/workout schedule and cut him back to 65.5. He looks better, moves better, and has way more energy at 65 then he ever did at 70+


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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

Goemon said:


> Must have missed this post yesterday in the heat of the moment.
> 
> You're welcome, Odin.
> 
> ...


BEST post I've read in a while!
Some kid was telling me yesterday that he has two 120lb 'pit bulls'. I told him that what he has were NOT true ApBT's and why they weren't. He got up and left. As goes to show in this thread, people are going to believe what they want. Whether it's wrong or not.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Kwhitaker0604 said:


> BEST post I've read in a while!
> Some kid was telling me yesterday that he has two 120lb 'pit bulls'. I told him that what he has were NOT true ApBT's and why they weren't. He got up and left. As goes to show in this thread, people are going to believe what they want. Whether it's wrong or not.


:rofl: :rofl: 
10 bucks says he's got an American Bulldog and doesn't know any better XD
I can't tell you how many times I was walking Mack and had people say, "Holy crap that's a huge pit" I'd always say, he's not a pit bull he's an American Bulldog. And they'd say, "looks like a pit bull to me" the stupid vet kept trying to put APBT on his paperwork too XD Ryan had to take the stupid vet his pedegree so they would put his proper breed on his vet/license papers. Just goes to show how screwed up the perception of these dogs it. Our Mack Truck was a 130lb dog. Lol no where close to an APBT XD


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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

Lol. I told that guy that Hiro weighs 47lbs and he was like how old is she? I was just like.. Almost three YEARS old. XD people are so dumb.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Loll so dumb  I laugh when people say Dosias too small or too skinny. He's a big ass dog!! At 65.5 and 25' at the withers. That is in NO way too small. He's big ol ass is tipping the scale XD


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Heres a visual aid on just how BIG that is. I'm five foot six, so I'm not too short


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Kwhitaker0604 said:


> BEST post I've read in a while!
> Some kid was telling me yesterday that he has two 120lb 'pit bulls'. I told him that what he has were NOT true ApBT's and why they weren't. He got up and left. As goes to show in this thread, people are going to believe what they want. Whether it's wrong or not.


I had this same issue with a step cousin. He was telling me about these 100+ lb "Red Line" Pit Bulls. I simply stated that they were not actual pit bulls and that the APBT is typically no larger than 60lbs MAX and he told me I was flat out wrong.

Some people just cannot believe that an animal with the reputation of the APBT could possibly be a smaller sized animal.

It makes me think of the legends if William Wallace (aka Braveheart). In the movie, when Wallace meets other soldiers, they don't believe he could possibly be William Wallace because he isn't 11 feet tall with giant bulging muscles and booming voice. Same goes for the APBT, their reputation precedes them as the ultimate warrior and so in one's mind, that must mean a giant behemoth of an animal.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Carriana said:


> I had this same issue with a step cousin. He was telling me about these 100+ lb "Red Line" Pit Bulls. I simply stated that they were not actual pit bulls and that the APBT is typically no larger than 60lbs MAX and he told me I was flat out wrong.
> 
> Some people just cannot believe that an animal with the reputation of the APBT could possibly be a smaller sized animal.
> 
> It makes me think of the legends if William Wallace (aka Braveheart). In the movie, when Wallace meets other soldiers, they don't believe he could possibly be William Wallace because he isn't 11 feet tall with giant bulging muscles and booming voice. Same goes for the APBT, their reputation precedes them as the ultimate warrior and so in one's mind, that must mean a giant behemoth of an animal.


:goodpost:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Goemon said:


> Must have missed this post yesterday in the heat of the moment.
> 
> You're welcome, Odin.
> 
> ...


You old fart! Wait a minute, what's that make me? LOL. 
Bigger bulldogs require more food as well...not real economic to a kennel. Although you know how I feel about Badger (23+ inches X 63 lean lbs.) LOL!!!
And yes, you and I both know that spreading the truth can come across a hell of alot more "rudely" than how you have dealt with this situation. 
Keep that OFRN blood flowing brother


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Wooooooowhoooooo! This thread was a blast reading through


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Carriana said:


> I had this same issue with a step cousin. He was telling me about these 100+ lb "Red Line" Pit Bulls. I simply stated that they were not actual pit bulls and that the APBT is typically no larger than 60lbs MAX and he told me I was flat out wrong.
> 
> Some people just cannot believe that an animal with the reputation of the APBT could possibly be a smaller sized animal.
> 
> It makes me think of the legends if William Wallace (aka Braveheart). In the movie, when Wallace meets other soldiers, they don't believe he could possibly be William Wallace because he isn't 11 feet tall with giant bulging muscles and booming voice. Same goes for the APBT, their reputation precedes them as the ultimate warrior and so in one's mind, that must mean a giant behemoth of an animal.


LOL, just watched that movie the other day....

It's so true. Every day this BS goes on....little do they know the true ApBT is not the underdog, LOL.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> You old fart! Wait a minute, what's that make me? LOL.
> Bigger bulldogs require more food as well...not real economic to a kennel. Although you know how I feel about Badger (23+ inches X 63 lean lbs.) LOL!!!
> And yes, you and I both know that spreading the truth can come across a hell of alot more "rudely" than how you have dealt with this situation.
> Keep that OFRN blood flowing brother


oke: Hey now, didn't we learn which of us has the most gray hairs?  
And yes, it can be more rudely....
It seems the younger generation needs a bigger stick to ingrain the truth into their thick skulls, lOL.
:stick:


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

LOL that was a great post Goemon and very true! i didnt mean any offense by my "old" comment, just telling u the image i got in my head. and yes KG i agree with u, everyone thinks im nuts when i say Odin is too big to be an APBT... 24" @ 73lbs.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Oh none taken Odin....LOL. 
Hmmm, 75# is actually the maximum weight allowed within the OFRN Registry. 
There are bigger dogs that have been like powerful freight trains that collide without breaks.
But these dogs are in the minority of the breed.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> LOL that was a great post Goemon and very true! i didnt mean any offense by my "old" comment, just telling u the image i got in my head. and yes KG i agree with u, everyone thinks im nuts when i say Odin is too big to be an APBT... 24" @ 73lbs.


Lol Dosias still got him beat by an inch  he's a hair over 25 at the withers. He's a freak dog


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Great thread to read through sorry I missed a lot of it. Krystal Dosia is a beast but I have seen a lot of big dogs come out of simular breedings. Naomi has a brother that looks just like him and he weighs about 58 pounds in condition.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Yea, I've seen a few biggins myself  it's funny that people always say,"a real APBT was never over 60lbs" yet when you go back through history and read about these dogs there were quite a few over 60.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

kg420 said:


> Yea, I've seen a few biggins myself  it's funny that people always say,"a real APBT was never over 60lbs" yet when you go back through history and read about these dogs there were quite a few over 60.


I try to be more cautious to say the majority of real APBT where not of that size, but yeah it wasn't about height and weight back then it was performance. If it was 75lbs and game it is what it is. Being over 60lbs didn't disqualify it from the breed lol.

Smaller dogs were the norm and most often now a days a large dog is going to be a cross of something, but it's a general statement not a fact to say they were a certain size.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Yeah I have to agree most were not that big. A lott of the big ones could not find competition at their size so it is hard to say how many really good big ones their were. But yeah they do show up.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Until Rooster, the other bulldogs I have had were averaging about 60+ lbs...none were as tall as Badger though. At his height and at 63 lbs. he could put on another 5-10 lbs. and still be in condition. He is my freak dog as Krystal would say. Super Freak, as Rick James would say


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> Until Rooster, the other bulldogs I have had were averaging about 60+ lbs...none were as tall as Badger though. At his height and at 63 lbs. he could put on another 5-10 lbs. and still be in condition. He is my freak dog as Krystal would say. Super Freak, as Rick James would say


Super freak, super freak!!! He's super freaky!! Lol

Yea I totally feel you guys. Not common but not impossible


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Theres been several whopper sized Bulldogs aka Bandogs bred from traditional stock Pit Dogs, lean 85 - 88 pound Dum Dum...

You also got Busters Browns massive 100 pound "structurally correct",, largest by far that i am aware of.










Largest traditional Bulldog i've seen was Carver cross bred brut of 77lbs.

My female Bulldog of 68lbs and Bandog of 93 well conditioned the largest i've kept, want to talk about some functional size..


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't really put too much emphasis on the weight too much unless it's something really drastic.In these pics Rebel was I believe 7 months old and already weighed 56 lbs.Granted he does look a little chubby in the pics,but he was only 7 months old.He's over a year now and is a little more cut.We've slowly been getting him in better shape


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> Until Rooster, the other bulldogs I have had were averaging about 60+ lbs...none were as tall as Badger though. At his height and at 63 lbs. he could put on another 5-10 lbs. and still be in condition. He is my freak dog as Krystal would say. Super Freak, as Rick James would say


If you ever get tired of Rooster's small size you can always send him my way. 
I'll send you a new pup when I have one, of your choice. 

Btw, I see you have the ol' Gimp and Joe Corvino in the Avatar. :clap:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Goemon said:


> If you ever get tired of Rooster's small size you can always send him my way.
> I'll send you a new pup when I have one, of your choice.
> 
> Btw, I see you have the ol' Gimp and Joe Corvino in the Avatar. :clap:


LOL!!! I'm just getting used to the little weirdo. I say little but mid 50's lbs. isn't that little, it's more his height that is different than what I've had. I suppose having the opposite end of the spectrum in Badger makes the transition more difficult. He is easier to workout though..at least my joints tell me so LOL I'll get that pup from you another way, another day

The Blacksmith indeed!!!


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> LOL!!! I'm just getting used to the little weirdo. I say little but mid 50's lbs. isn't that little, it's more his height that is different than what I've had. I suppose having the opposite end of the spectrum in Badger makes the transition more difficult. He is easier to workout though..at least my joints tell me so LOL I'll get that pup from you another way, another day
> 
> The Blacksmith indeed!!!


up:
LOL, okay. I know what you mean, "easier to workout." :snap:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Goemon said:


> up:
> LOL, okay. I know what you mean, "easier to workout." :snap:


It's that damn leverage thing that Badger's got going on LOLupruns:


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## Kristen623 (Sep 25, 2012)

I have an AmBully who I originally thought was APBT. After joining this forum, I learned that my little Mason (well not so little anymore at 5 months & almost 50lbs) is AmBully. His mother is Gotty line & his dad is Razor. Doesn't make a difference to me one bit. I love that little bugger!!! I think he's gorgeous! He's more stalky than an APBT. My neighbors call him "pork chop". My kids football coaches call him "bacon". I call him little "piglet". We take him everywhere we go. He is so calm, sweet & affectionate! He is pretty much at celebrity status now in my small town of Gloucester MA. lol I will say this, I had an APBT before Mason. Her name was Foxy & she passed away 3 years ago from cancer at age 11  . I see a difference in temperament & obviously size & body proportion. Foxy was a bit more hyper & a little dog aggressive. Mason is laid back & will greet all dogs if I let him.


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