# Razors Edge history



## Clashez

Razors Edge Pitbulls was started in MD and DC by Dave Wilson and Carlos Barksdale. They started out with game dogs. They researched everything they could find and read every book publicized at that time. The also subscribed to many dog magazines like the ADBA Gazette, even some underground ones. They called nearly every breeder that they could find and questioned them, If it said Pit, they were on it. They already owned some unpapered BYB Pits. They even had there own Pit club and went hiking and other things back in the woods. Eventually they got enough money to get some real papered, good bloodline, game dogs. They purchased some of the best around at the time. Even paid $3500 way back then for a Grandson of the great “Plumbers Alligator”, mainly Mayfield lines. Dave and Carlos were very heavy into the game lines and had dogs from Hemphill to Wilder blood. These were big game dogs. Later on they hooked up with George Williams in DC and purchased a dog they named Diablo, from Wildside Kennels. Diablo’s dad was a bigger catch dog, “Hollinsworth Bull”. His mom was a game girl names “Wildsides Ms.Leaky”. This was the turn around time when Razors Edge Pitbulls started adding more size. The first ever registered “ADBA” Razors Edge Pitbulls breeding was from his Mayfield boy Zeus to a Mayfield girl name Jinx. Jinx was actually given to friend back then named Curt Plater, now CLP Kennels. He owned the first ever Razors Edge Pitbulls dog. They would lose contact after this for many years before hooking up again. They banned Pits in PG County and Dave was forced to move. Eventually through Dave’s job in the Pet Store industry he landed a mangers job at a Pet Store in VA. He had to move to VA and still resides there as Razors Edge Kennel. Dave managed a Pet Store, worked as a professional dog trainer, and still bred bigger ADBA game dogs. Basically, he bred his own pits now. He also put fliers in the Washington Post explaining what the breed was and what Razors Edge Pitbulls was. Dave met a guy name Ron Smith who came aboard and took Razors Edge Pitbulls to another level. Dave saw this blue dog named “Steel Town Blue Monday” and was hooked! Ron already knew every UKC and AKC breeder under the sun. He had been researching on his own for years. So this man had all the pictures, info, etc…. He had fliers and pictures from every AKC and UKC breeder from Coast to coast. He literally had pictures of almost all the dogs in all these pedigrees. That man really was the “Pit Guru”. He first contacted thingy ‘n’ Bull Kennels, the ones that produced Monday. They turned them onto people in Cali with that blood. Candace Eggart was one. Candy sent pictures of what she had and what she had going on. Just to give you a time frame, She sold a dog years later to Tony Moore named Showtime! Showtime went on to be one of the foundation pregnant doges in the Greyline bloodline! So this was years before Greyline was even around. They went to every breeder on the East Coast. Up north to Bobby Morehouse, Beth Jones, a friend of his Lee Fitzgerald, Flying A’s, Minot’s Ledge, etc. they actually purchased a blue brindle female named “Sadey” from Minot’s Ledge. This litter was had an extraordinary pedigree. The top half were mainly Flying A’s dogs like “Oreo” and “Reo Speedwagon”. Dogs he had seen and liked. You could see in the extended pedigree how these dogs stemmed from Ruffian dogs. Then you could see how it went back even further from the AKC Ruffian dog to the UKC Colby dogs. This top half of the pedigree actually showed how Pits eventually were registered as Staffs! Dave thought that was cool to see on paper and in a dog he owned. Then the bottom half of the ped went right back to Stratton dogs. Dogs like Going light Barney, dogs he grew up reading about! Thanks to Richard Stratton, Then behind them were the same Colby dogs he saw on the top half of the pedigree. So he had this dog that showed the history of the Am. Staff and the directions the Colby line went in the UKC. he also purchased a male named “Razors Edge Blue Maxx”. His top half was a dog named “StoryTime’s Upon this Rock” AKA “Peter” Peter was a dog bred by Beth Jones. He was a big dog, but kinda ugly. They bred him to “Wassuc’s Farm Maggie May”. Dave really liked this compact girl. He researched her lines and found she was Ryan. When they got to see the Ryan dogs they were surprised to see they were game dogs. They were AKC registered Staffs, but they still bred for game dogs! This was something Dave had never seen, I’m sure that’s why the AKC people didn’t like that line, . However; Dave loved it! Bully, game, blue, staffs! Now that’s what I am talking about! Maxx was there boy from this blood. Now Razors Edge Pitbulls was big ADBA game dogs, one UKC Blue Brindle girl, and a Big hot Blue Fawn AKC boy. In Va there was Sharon Stone of Cloverhill, who had the biggest Staffs Dave had ever seen! Her old stuff was huge! Too tall for what he was looking for, but huge! They changed years later and went more showy. Razors Edge Pitbulls Paco, was in Dave’s opinion actually a throw back of her older days. Ginny York, Pam Perdue, GiGi, the Garretts, etc….they visited them all. Even went down to Florida and checked out Marsha Woods. Met KC Courtier of Watchdog Kennels. Eventually, went up to Md and met Kimmar Kennels. As soon as Dave stepped on the ranch, he knew he had found the build he was looking for! The Razors Edge Pitbulls package was almost complete. Razors Edge Pitbulls had been advertising in the Washington Post for many years. Some young dudes from DC used to come down and hang out and bring their dogs. Edwin Salinas and Joey Nevils were two of them. These guys had been buying dogs from Kimmar and mixing their own stuff in them too. Kimmar used to have an ad in the post under the Pit Bull ads, it said “Petey pups”. They didn’t want their dogs to be labeled as Pits; but they advertised directly under Pits? Hmmmmmm? Not as Staff? Anyway, local people knew the deal and picked up a lot of her dogs. Joey, Edwin, Joey’s pops, and their boys had a bunch of these dogs. Even some old friends of Dave’s Jerry and Gerrold had yards with these dogs. They all had game stuff in the mix. Dave tapped into a lot of their dogs as well to create Razors Edge pitbulls. In Kimmar’s yard he learned a lot about breeding and genetics. Dave spent every weekend there for almost three years, and actually put on a training class for all her buyers every Sunday. Razors Edge Pitbulls had been breeding now for a few generations and even used a lot of her dogs from other people in the mix. Ron, also had some Pitbulls was already in the game. Kimmar actually used there dog Maxx for some breedings. Eventually we purchased around 15 dogs from her line, including Knuckles and Rage. While these pups were growing, Razors Edge already had it’s formula. They just wanted a different head. They were not given papers on some of these dogs and they had to be UKC registered instead! This is where Razors Edge Pitbulls became heavily involved in UKC. Dave started searching for a better head and came into some Watchdog stuff. KC was not breeding anymore, so he had to find that blood somewhere else. he bought dogs from Grapevine Kennels, and also hit up Hughzee’s, who he believe later on became Chaos Kennels. They had been talking to Pam from Gaff Kennels for a few years, and really liked a boy name Seiko! So they got a dog from her. So Dave experimented with a lot of lines and different dogs. Razors Edge Pitbulls started having a real consistent look. The heads were big, but they still wanted them to be a little blockier. A few generations later it was pretty much there. So by taking combinations of dogs and bloodlines Dave eventually got to the style of pitbull he wanted, now called “Bully Style” of Razors Edge Pitbulls, Meaning large in size, such as a large head, wide chest, short blocky muzzles, large, but not over done bone, and a shorter back, but at the same time correct as the United Kennel Club and American Kennel Club judge by. Razors Edge Pitbulls’ Dave purchased a pup from the breeding of Kimmars Catt Man Roo and Pam’s White Path China Black. These two dogs produce a few dogs in the litter that helped to promote the Razors Edge pitbulls line, dogs such as: GR CH Razors Edge Throwin Knuckles, CH Razors Edge Inna Rage, and Razors Edge Sapphire Lil. Another breeding that produced one of the most famous pregnant doges in the history of Razors Edge was between Ch. Jackson’s GMJ Mr. Brooks and Razors Edge SilverSadey of ML which produced GR. CH. Razors Edge Sadey’s Paddington and also Kim’s Blue Dekota. Dave used Ch. CloverHill’s Watuka Spirit AKA Paco and bred him to Paddington, which produced the legendary CH. Razors Edge Purple Rose of Cairo, the most famous dog of all the Razors Edge Pitbulls today in my opinion. Razors Edge Kenna Claddaugh, Razors Edge Top Notch Chino, Razors Edge Chi Chi of Trueblue, Tonka and Jigga and Iced Mocha are also productions from this breeding. When the time was right the grand champion knuckles was bred to Paddington, which produced another female, named Viagra. Viagra was bred to the legend Cairo and produced one of my favorite males Razors Edge V’s Lil Ro, AKA “RO”. They also produced Cai, Diva, Caira and a few more. RO lives his own legacy today in producing some beautiful dogs such as suarez bulls paco and genuine Edge’s Toxic, and Titan Kennels Titan, just to name a few of my favorite males out of him. A friend of mine at Bully Loaded Kennels also has a son, Quake, and daughter, Faith, off of him that will be very nice when there older. Cairo was also bred to a few other females but I won’t name them all just ones that come to mind, some of the important ones in my eyes, such as the Cairo and Koi Breeding. Koi who is out of GR CH Knuckles and Dakota (Paddingtons sister), was bred to Cairo and produced Rage, Neela, Brooklyn, Shamrock, Rolli, Rosetta, and Diamond. Cairo was also bred to tiki and produced a male by the name of Hennessy. Cairo was also bred to my friends dog trixie of blackout kennels in VA and produced his male Gooda, Bo at Bow Wow Kennels,Denile at Razors Edge Kennel, one of my personal favorite females of Razors Edge pitbulls bloodline and two others that go by Bosko and Bun. The cairo side of razors edge pitbulls is just a fraction of the bloodline. The line has been taking in different directions but everythang basically stems from the knuckles, paddington, and rage blood. Another well known producing dog is Razors Edge CLP’s Short Shot, Short Shot is off of Buckshot and Rage, and is also a grandson to Knuckles on Buckshots side and Rage is Knuckles sister. Shortshot has done a few breedings is his life, such as Diamond, and more recently Paradise and Steel. there is also sections of the blood that are almost like a line in its own depending on what your looking for, you got the Cairo side, the shortshot side, the you got manu side, dozer daisy line breedings, which all of this basically ties into each and every dog produced from razors edge pitbulls yard in the very beginning! You just have to connect them all together. It’s the facts of producing outstanding dogs from the start and putting time and effort and lots of money into building a dream. Razors Edge Pitbulls Kennel has been involved in learning, breeding, showing, training and raising the American Pitbull Terrier for well over 15 years and it keeps getting better! Razors edge pitbulls will not die! It will live on through Dave’s kids, friends, and mainly in his dogs! Razors Edge pitbulls is a bloodline for everyone, it offers show quality dogs, bully correct dogs, bully dogs, and overdone dogs, overdone meaning extreme bone, head, and chest, at the same time very nice dogs, but dogs that would not be able to win in the show ring. So if you want a real pitbull where there females outdo other kennels males go to Razors Edge pitbulls Kennel and they can point you in the right direction!

Razors Edge Pitbulls is the most popular bloodline in the american bully movement! Razors Edge blood is HQ Bullies main foundation blood.

Razors Edge Pitbulls Difference: Razors Edge Pitbulls tend to have more of the classic pitbull look and still retain the pitbull features in a shorter stockier version. Razors Edge Pitbulls is often referred to as the cleaner look compared to other bully pitbull bloodlines.


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## Firehazard

Good post.. most of us are pretty kein on it however someone may not run across older posts, so thanks!! Nice summary.. IF you can go through and puncuate correctly with sentence, paragraph, and page breaks it will make it MUCH more easy for reader.


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## Carriana

Firehazard said:


> Good post.. most of us are pretty kein on it however someone may not run across older posts, so thanks!! Nice summary.. IF you can go through and puncuate correctly with sentence, paragraph, and page breaks it will make it MUCH more easy for reader.


Yes! Some paragraph breaks are needed desperately. Also, if you copied that from another source please include a link and give credit where credit is due.

ETA: Copied and pasted from here: http://www.hqbullies.com/info/razors-edge-bloodline-history/

The only issue I have is them referring to the dogs as "Razors Edge Pitbulls".


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## Clashez

Carriana said:


> Yes! Some paragraph breaks are needed desperately. Also, if you copied that from another source please include a link and give credit where credit is due.
> 
> ETA: Copied and pasted from here: Razors Edge Pitbulls Bloodline History
> 
> The only issue I have is them referring to the dogs as "Razors Edge Pitbulls".


Yes copy and pasted, reading it gave me a headache but found it very informative.
so I shared it ....

Pitbulls? Well that what they are when u get right down to it


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## Katey

This was a very interesting read. Thanks so much for poring it up.

I have been wondering about RE and where they came from for a while.

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## Carriana

A far cry from the traditional pit bull (two words, not one) and I for one would never do either dog the disservice of failing to differentiate the two. Just my humble opinion.


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## Saint Francis

Carriana said:


> A far cry from the traditional pit bull (two words, not one) and I for one would never do either dog the disservice of failing to differentiate the two. Just my humble opinion.


Thank you.


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## pookie!

Stopped reading when they said they started with game dogs. BULLSHIT. Since when do UKC/AKC dogs constitute as game dogs?



Clashez said:


> Yes copy and pasted, reading it gave me a headache but found it very informative.
> so I shared it ....
> 
> Pitbulls? Well that what they are when u get right down to it


No, they arent even close to a Pit Bull. Hell the UKC/AKC dogs are more Pit Bull than any RE dog.


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## Rudy4747

Dave wilson actually owned mayfeild dogs and attended adba event. Even so when he transfered amstaffs to ukc and adba he did adba events. My freind told me of a day when he placed one of his blue dogs and Dave said to him no one places mt dogs usually. My buddy told him luckily today he was the best in class. Any how he did at one point own traditinally bred mayfeild dogs...


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## Clashez

Bullys are the evolution of the " PIT BULL " lol

Seriously tho I read tons of story on the web and the evolution of the bully and there all just about like the story above ( original post) 

But haven't read one grain of evidence that they weren't breed from game dogs "Pit Bulls"
Just tons of post from people that have no real idea at all saying there a mixture of something else.

Now the razors edge style bullys look like short and stocky "Pit Bull" 
Now the gotti style bullys I feel a little bit iffy about them


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## Just Tap Pits

Clashez said:


> Bullys are the evolution of the " PIT BULL " lol
> 
> Seriously tho I read tons of story on the web and the evolution of the bully and there all just about like the story above ( original post)
> 
> But haven't read one grain of evidence that they weren't breed from game dogs "Pit Bulls"
> Just tons of post from people that have no real idea at all saying there a mixture of something else.
> 
> Now the razors edge style bullys look like short and stocky "Pit Bull"
> Now the gotti style bullys I feel a little bit iffy about them


I have stayed out of this until now for good reason. What you ssid above is garbage. The apbt did not "evolve" into anything. Papers were hung and breeds were crossed. Dave wilson has admitted to that. Do not confuse the two or come in here and say they're the same. All dave wilson did was make a mix breed designer dog that he campaigned and made into what it is today "the american bully". All opinions aside what I just stated are the facts. Theyre their own breed with their own registry that the orginator made. Tell dave wilson he has pit bulls and he will mostly likely say no he doesnt he has american bullies.


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## welder

Deleted it before i posted it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cause i like it here and dont want to get runned off.


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## Clashez

Just Tap Pits said:


> I have stayed out of this until now for good reason. What you ssid above is garbage. The apbt did not "evolve" into anything. Papers were hung and breeds were crossed. Dave wilson has admitted to that. Do not confuse the two or come in here and say they're the same. All dave wilson did was make a mix breed designer dog that he campaigned and made into what it is today "the american bully". All opinions aside what I just stated are the facts. Theyre their own breed with their own registry that the orginator made. Tell dave wilson he has pit bulls and he will mostly likely say no he doesnt he has american bullies.


Please I beg you make me a believer !!! Do you have any links to this information? Maybe Dave Wilson personal number so I can ask him


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## Just Tap Pits

Clashez said:


> Please I beg you make me a believer !!! Do you have any links to this information? Maybe Dave Wilson personal number so I can ask him


The info is readily available here. Do your own leg work. And I would never want to have his #......


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Search it here.... do ur research and u will find it. Wilson has admitted to mixing other breeds in. It is documented. 

And I agree his RE dogs are just as much a pit bull as the neighbors lab is.


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## Rudy4747

Clashez said:


> Please I beg you make me a believer !!! Do you have any links to this information? Maybe Dave Wilson personal number so I can ask him


Look up the ABKC. American Bully Kennel Club. They have plenty of cntact information. Go ahead and ask any one yiu gdt a hold of their. How much pit bull their dogs are. Since Dave is the owner of the registry I am sure they can point you to the info you need. But know that the bully is a far cry from APBT.


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## Firehazard

Dave Wilson was very clear his bully style bulldogs were NOT APBTs...


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## Carriana

According to our resident bully guru, pitbullmamantl, Dave did NOT admit to mixing any other breed besides the apbt and ast. That was a misprint if anyone has bothered to read the discussion that was hadaabout this recently: http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/95810-adba-out-look-american-bully.html#post977650


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## Just Tap Pits

Carriana said:


> According to our resident bully guru, pitbullmamantl, Dave did NOT admit to mixing any other breed besides the apbt and ast. That was a misprint if anyone has bothered to read the discussion that was hadaabout this recently: http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/95810-adba-out-look-american-bully.html#post977650


According to jack ellis all the big dogs were oure apbt and the result of biggest to biggest breedings. All signs point in the same direction. If it turns out he didnt admitt to mixing other breeds im not nieve enough to believe he didnt.


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## redog

If you ask Dave, he will be very candid and tell you himself. I had a million questions and he took the time to answer all of them. Where's ptbmamantl and Bullythekid when we need em


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## Princesspaola21

Carriana said:


> According to our resident bully guru, pitbullmamantl, Dave did NOT admit to mixing any other breed besides the apbt and ast. That was a misprint if anyone has bothered to read the discussion that was hadaabout this recently: http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/95810-adba-out-look-american-bully.html#post977650


This is correct. It was a misprint from a newspaper and they did post a retraction but of course nobody cared to read that... I'm not saying that nobody has added English bulldogs, frenchies, Boston's, mastiff, American bulldog, etc... I'm just saying not everybody has. I sure as hell never will. There are plenty of flavors of bully out there. Pick your poison and build what you want. No reason to keep mucking up the blood. Keep it CLEAN!

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## Clashez

Dave Wilson YouTube proof is in the pudding .....


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## Clashez

Carriana said:


> According to our resident bully guru, pitbullmamantl, Dave did NOT admit to mixing any other breed besides the apbt and ast. That was a misprint if anyone has bothered to read the discussion that was hadaabout this recently: http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/95810-adba-out-look-american-bully.html#post977650


Yes your right please watch video above ^^^^^


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## rocthebully

Carriana said:


> According to our resident bully guru, pitbullmamantl, Dave did NOT admit to mixing any other breed besides the apbt and ast. That was a misprint if anyone has bothered to read the discussion that was hadaabout this recently: http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/95810-adba-out-look-american-bully.html#post977650


Yes I remember that, it was a misprint, I think apbt people here know a lot about the apbt but not the am bully.imo a lot of bully owners know about both breeds cause they respect where they came from and a lot of them started with pitbulls, but apbt people don't give any respect to the bully world which is why they could care less about anything and everything that has to do with the movement.


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## rocthebully

Princesspaola21 said:


> This is correct. It was a misprint from a newspaper and they did post a retraction but of course nobody cared to read that... I'm not saying that nobody has added English bulldogs, frenchies, Boston's, mastiff, American bulldog, etc... I'm just saying not everybody has. I sure as hell never will. There are plenty of flavors of bully out there. Pick your poison and build what you want. No reason to keep mucking up the blood. Keep it CLEAN!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yup yup ! Good post


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## rocthebully

Clashez said:


> Bullys are the evolution of the " PIT BULL " lol
> 
> Seriously tho I read tons of story on the web and the evolution of the bully and there all just about like the story above ( original post)
> 
> But haven't read one grain of evidence that they weren't breed from game dogs "Pit Bulls"
> Just tons of post from people that have no real idea at all saying there a mixture of something else.
> 
> Now the razors edge style bullys look like short and stocky "Pit Bull"
> Now the gotti style bullys I feel a little bit iffy about them


Well gotti line dogs all go back to one dog (jaun gotti) and Juan gotti is a greyline not a gotti line, RE was started with a lot of different dogs (and no I don't mean eb, fb, or mastiff).


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## Rudy4747

Haha Look at your pedigree and see that their is no game dogs goes back to amstaff and amstaff registered with the UKC. I think alot of people know about bullies but bully people dont want to see the truth cause then it kills the selling point of thick blue pitbull JMO


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## rocthebully

Rudy4747 said:


> Haha Look at your pedigree and see that their is no game dogs goes back to amstaff and amstaff registered with the UKC. I think alot of people know about bullies but bully people dont want to see the truth cause then it kills the selling point of thick blue pitbull JMO


Actually there is and in no way am I trying to be bais cause I'm a bully owner I love both the apbt and the bully , I just don't like how people won't even accept the fact that without the apbt there would be no am.bully just like no wolf no dog.And the some people see mr.miagi or dax and there owners and breeders like them who are in it to better there pockets not the breed and think this is what the breed is, nope there's a lot of good breeders and a lot of good dogs that represent the bully breed in a good way.


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## KMdogs

Rudy4747 said:


> Haha Look at your pedigree and see that their is no game dogs goes back to amstaff and amstaff registered with the UKC. I think alot of people know about bullies but bully people dont want to see the truth cause then it kills the selling point of thick blue pitbull JMO[/QUOTE:
> 
> :goodpost:
> 
> This.. never seen a [] dog used in any of the bully foundations and if you think about it, would be counter productive as the goals for the American bully has no relation. Ast to ast at best.
> 
> All I hear from Dave Wilson and others is I wanted to make money, and I am making money.
> 
> Spin it how you wish, the American bully is only a modernized, glorified, marketable version to the AST.
> 
> Like a dealership, go to a Ford dealership. "I want a ford", big, small, color options, "temperament", etc.. but all under the same name..just replace ford with am bully and there you go.


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## rocthebully

You told me to go look at my peds, and I went back pretty far just to make sure there was not 1 APBT, and came across Ferguson's Centipede (3×w) and Tudors fighting Peter (3×w)


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## Just Tap Pits

Rudy4747 said:


> Haha Look at your pedigree and see that their is no game dogs goes back to amstaff and amstaff registered with the UKC. I think alot of people know about bullies but bully people dont want to see the truth cause then it kills the selling point of thick blue pitbull JMO





KMdogs said:


> Rudy4747 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Haha Look at your pedigree and see that their is no game dogs goes back to amstaff and amstaff registered with the UKC. I think alot of people know about bullies but bully people dont want to see the truth cause then it kills the selling point of thick blue pitbull JMO[/QUOTE:
> 
> :goodpost:
> 
> This.. never seen a [] dog used in any of the bully foundations and if you think about it, would be counter productive as the goals for the American bully has no relation. Ast to ast at best.
> 
> All I hear from Dave Wilson and others is I wanted to make money, and I am making money.
> 
> Spin it how you wish, the American bully is only a modernized, glorified, marketable version to the AST.
> 
> Like a dealership, go to a Ford dealership. "I want a ford", big, small, color options, "temperament", etc.. but all under the same name..just replace ford with am bully and there you go.
> 
> 
> 
> Good posts!!!!
Click to expand...


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## rocthebully

I don't think there talking about dog shows (3×w), lol


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## Just Tap Pits

rocthebully said:


> I don't think there talking about dog shows (3×w), lol


Well I know for a fact anything tudors or centipede is atleast 6 generations back.... that would also likely be where paper hanging comes in...


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## pookie!

rocthebully said:


> You told me to go look at my peds, and I went back pretty far just to make sure there was not 1 APBT, and came across Ferguson's Centipede (3×w) and Tudors fighting Peter (3×w)


Yes and thats because you went so far back, through all the bullies, through all the AmStaff until you finally got back to the APBTs.

As I am sure you know, AST will always go back to pit dogs, but no bully will have pit dogs or APBT close in their pedigrees. They all go back to the AST dogs.

No one would want to add in game bred dogs to the AmBully because last time I checked they wanted to get far away from those traits


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## Carriana

I think you underestimate just how indiscriminate some bully breeders of the past and present truly were and are when throwing two dogs together. There are quite a few game dogs in Lucy's pedigree if you dig back far enough (10+ generations). You have to remember that the American Bully wasn't an idea until many of these exaggerated dogs already existed. It could be that some of these breeders had a goal in mind other than creating heavier boned APBT. Also keep in mind that, as pookie stated, if you trace any AST back far enough you will run into [] dogs. I believe what KM is saying is that no actual game-dogs were used in the making of the American Bully, to which I agree. But I do think that there was a random game-bred dog used here and there back when there was little purpose or goal in mind other than putting two dogs together and making puppies.


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## Firehazard

Read Dave wilsons work... anything else is added by the masses not by the originator. Simple as that. Game dogs?? this is a RE discussion right? The first RE dogs registered were gamebred BUT WERE NEVER REALLY BRED INTO THE line DERIVED by wilson as the RE line.. Common now, pay attention to what your reading and open your ears to listen.

GENETIC wise they're mutated APBT genes both in the AST and the BULLY the Boston Terrier for that matter.These revolving door discussion are just a sign that no one is as open to knowledge as they are to running off with their own 2 cents. Non working dogs along with another bulldog, the english bulldog. What has been said is that there have been game dogs that have the classic bully stature, which is true among st benedicts, lonzo, some JRB dogs, etc.. that doesnt mean they're bullys or that bullys are game. That just needs to quit even being thought of as having game dogs in direct pedigree its asinine. 

KM, Pookie, Redog, :goodpost:


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## rocthebully

Carriana said:


> I think you underestimate just how indiscriminate some bully breeders of the past and present truly were and are when throwing two dogs together. There are quite a few game dogs in Lucy's pedigree if you dig back far enough (10+ generations). You have to remember that the American Bully wasn't an idea until many of these exaggerated dogs already existed. It could be that some of these breeders had a goal in mind other than creating heavier boned APBT. Also keep in mind that, as pookie stated, if you trace any AST back far enough you will run into [] dogs. I believe what KM is saying is that no actual game-dogs were used in the making of the American Bully, to which I agree. But I do think that there was a random game-bred dog used here and there back when there was little purpose or goal in mind other than putting two dogs together and making puppies.


Ya I kinda figured km ment that, and there is a guy that is breeding bully with game dog and he's one of the Moore brothers who actually lives here where I live and is trying to create" a dog with alot of drive" he's never breed the bullies you see today or doesn't wanna he doesn't say what blood he's throwing in there but he has a female in his youtube video and one of the pups he already had of the first breeding


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## pookie!

Not even just in the past Carriana, I have seen some recent pedigrees of some RE/Gotti bullies being bred to Nigerino, RBJ, whatever game bred dogs.. boggles my mind. 

Its counter productive for both types, no AmBully blood is going to improve the game bred dog and if you are breeding AmBully adding in a game bred dog will probably set the bullies back some too, lessening the "bully" look, making them more work than the bully people like


----------



## Just Tap Pits

rocthebully said:


> Ya I kinda figured km ment that, and there is a guy that is breeding bully with game dog and he's one of the Moore brothers who actually lives here where I live and is trying to create" a dog with alot of drive" he's never breed the bullies you see today or doesn't wanna he doesn't say what blood he's throwing in there but he has a female in his youtube video and one of the pups he already had of the first breeding


Thats counterproductive. Why buy dogs that are exactly opposite of what you want? Why does a bully need drive? It doesnt take drive to walk around a show ring. All dude is doing is making unstable mutts.


----------



## rocthebully

Firehazard said:


> Read Dave wilsons work... anything else is added by the masses not by the originator. Simple as that. Game dogs?? this is a RE discussion right? The first RE dogs registered were gamebred BUT WERE NEVER REALLY BRED INTO THE line DERIVED by wilson as the RE line.. Common now, pay attention to what your reading and open your ears to listen.
> 
> GENETIC wise they're mutated APBT genes both in the AST and the BULLY the Boston Terrier for that matter.These revolving door discussion are just a sign that no one is as open to knowledge as they are to running off with their own 2 cents. Non working dogs along with another bulldog, the english bulldog. What has been said is that there have been game dogs that have the classic bully stature, which is true among st benedicts, lonzo, some JRB dogs, etc.. that doesnt mean they're bullys or that bullys are game. That just needs to quit even being thought of as having game dogs in direct pedigree its asinine.
> 
> KM, Pookie, Redog, :goodpost:


Nobody said am.bullies are game and I don't need to open my eyes to anything I've been here long enough to know that the am.bully didn't just fall out the sky, it came from somewhere and all the evidence points back to the Apbt no matter how far you go back


----------



## rocthebully

Just Tap Pits said:


> Thats counterproductive. Why buy dogs that are exactly opposite of what you want? Why does a bully need drive? It doesnt take drive to walk around a show ring. All dude is doing is making unstable mutts.


Idk look up his video its been a while since I've seen it don't remember what was said and havent talked to him in a couple yrs, type in garry moore greyline


----------



## Just Tap Pits

rocthebully said:


> Idk look up his video its been a while since I've seen it don't remember what was said and havent talked to him in a couple yrs, type in garry moore greyline


I dnt need to see the video lmao. I just told u what is happening. Same thing dave wilson did make mutts. There is absolutely no logical reason to destroy the apbt or american bully by crossing the two. Its counterproductive to what dave wilson did. Also with your they csme from pit bulls argument, All ppl orginated in africa and the middle east... are you african or middle eastern? Same concept. If yiu wanted a pit bull or to say your dogs came from apbt you shouldve just got one instead of a bully.


----------



## rocthebully

And if you don't know who Tony moore and Gary moore is there the ones who produced "Juan gotti" without greyline there would be no gotti line


----------



## rocthebully

Just Tap Pits said:


> I dnt need to see the video lmao. I just told u what is happening. Same thing dave wilson did make mutts. There is absolutely no logical reason to destroy the apbt or american bully by crossing the two. Its counterproductive to what dave wilson did. Also with your they csme from pit bulls argument, All ppl orginated in africa and the middle east... are you african or middle eastern? Same concept. If yiu wanted a pit bull or to say your dogs came from apbt you shouldve just got one instead of a bully.


Look you take it how you want I've learned a lot more about the apbt since I've been here and know and have learned a lot about am.bullies your just one track minded and I like your African refrence , kinda reminds me of the wolf and the mutts we have today...lol


----------



## Just Tap Pits

rocthebully said:


> Look you take it how you want I've learned a lot more about the apbt since I've been here and know and have learned a lot about am.bullies your just one track minded and I like your African refrence , kinda reminds me of the wolf and the mutts we have today...lol


Im not one track minded. There is no reason behind it. Why add drive to dog bred to have none? Why take drivey dogs and dogs with no drive? Why take a dog bred to not be da and breed them to da dogs? If anyone is one track minded its you. The bullies task in life is to look pretty. You just want a "blue bully pit" .. ..


----------



## welder

rocthebully said:


> I think apbt people here know a lot about the apbt but not the am bully.imo a lot of bully owners know about both breeds cause they respect where they came from and a lot of them started with pitbulls, but apbt people don't give any respect to the bully world which is why they could care less about anything and everything that has to do with the movement.


cuz, you hit that nail dead on the head....!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Just Tap Pits

welder said:


> cuz, you hit that nail dead on the head....!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ill agree apbt ppl and working dog ppl dnt follow the bullies or see their purpose(hell some dont even want them to exist)but I dnt think bully ppl know more about both breeds. If they did why do so many say apbt "evolved" in to bullies? Wjy do they call them "pit bulls"? Why do they argue about 2 apbt way way way back in the ped when the rest is amstaff? Why try to civer obvious things? Yall can see where this is going. I see very little respect for the apbt from the "bully movement" and I see no need to respect them back(as a whole. idividual folks and dogs are different). Just my opinion.


----------



## welder

wouldn't hurt my feelins abit if this got moved to bully101....cause I don't go there..but to each his own I reckon....

howd this fuss start anyway...??? jtp you been naughty again?


----------



## Just Tap Pits

welder said:


> wouldn't hurt my feelins abit if this got moved to bully101....cause I don't go there..but to each his own I reckon....
> 
> howd this fuss start anyway...??? jtp you been naughty again?


Well move it mod... no this was not my cluster bump. I's been good since we chatted.


----------



## Firehazard

The reality is there is only one way to clean up any bulldog strain.. add the original working dog back into it. This has been done since... since... among show fanciers. They adhere to a look, then breed for a look not realizing you don't know behavior or function-ability until the dog is worked; they dont want to create working dogs but need that balance in their stock. 

The first person who says they don't need to open their eyes is the first person who needs to open their eyes. (psychology 101)
I said pay attention to what you read, and open your ears. I sure didnt say that anyone said bullies are game, I said the opposite of whats being said: they go right back to game dogs. No one said open your eyes. Get it straight oke: 

besides the current X overs, the bully itself hasnt had game dog directly in its ped since what pre 1980?? its an oversized Boston Terrier simple as that. Yes Boston Terriers are genetically the same as APBTs.. 

bout the wolves... Hahahaha.. ya'll barely have a clue, you should've studied wolves inside and out before getting a bulldog, even in the wild no curs allowed, oh they can submit for a 2nd but to long will get a wolf ate.. The bulldog is canine in the raw... I started with wolves and have researched the bully movement extensively, its not my bag but I know genetics, canine behavior, work, and pedigrees. Indeed to each his own. Sounds like many folks are quick to assume.


----------



## rocthebully

Just Tap Pits said:


> Im not one track minded. There is no reason behind it. Why add drive to dog bred to have none? Why take drivey dogs and dogs with no drive? Why take a dog bred to not be da and breed them to da dogs? If anyone is one track minded its you. The bullies task in life is to look pretty. You just want a "blue bully pit" .. ..


Your answer is leading me to believe that your not exactly getting what I'm saying , I don't want a game blue pit , gary moore does and someone said something about mixing bully with a game dog so I said I knew someone who was breeding bully to a game dog I'm not saying I agree with it just put it out there, and what I ment about one track minded is that you'll educate yourself with the apbt history but not the am. Bully.


----------



## rocthebully

Jtp isn't starting anything , were just having a lil debate no harm done


----------



## rocthebully

Firehazard I didn't say anything towards sorry , I thought it was just me and jtp talking


----------



## Just Tap Pits

rocthebully said:


> Your answer is leading me to believe that your not exactly getting what I'm saying , I don't want a game blue pit , gary moore does and someone said something about mixing bully with a game dog so I said I knew someone who was breeding bully to a game dog I'm not saying I agree with it just put it out there, and what I ment about one track minded is that you'll educate yourself with the apbt history but not the am. Bully.


I know the history lmao. And I get what you're saying. What you dont get is you said they came from game pit bulls and dug 10 generations back to find a couple.no1 has ever argued that the am staff came from apbts. Bullies are so far away from the apbt its a ridiculous. Just dont say they came from game apbt. They didnt. Maybe generations ago the am staffs were once apbt but the bullies was never an apbt and could never be an apbt. Im mot trying to be rude or offensive the am bully is a designer breed mutt(again not to be taken offensively) Im glad the ukc is giving them their own little section and im glad the abkc exist. I wont knock what yall feed and like but apbt they never were and never will be.

Ive seen bullies I like Im just not a show tyoe person and they're show dogs. To each their own. If u have nice clean dogs and do stufd with them im your biggest fan regardless of breed.


----------



## rocthebully

I said there was pitbull in the pedigree , Dave Wilson said he crossed the pitbull with the am.staff , but when it comes down to it, you like milk and I like chocolate milk but as long as we both get our vtiman d that's all that matters


----------



## Clashez

I hate to tell you apbt guys but your dogs are now breed for the same reasons the American Stafford was breed for looks show etc ....


----------



## Firehazard

^^^^ :flush:


----------



## ames

FYI thread has been moved to bullies 101


----------



## pookie!

rocthebully said:


> I said there was pitbull in the pedigree , Dave Wilson said he crossed the pitbull with the am.staff , but when it comes down to it, you like milk and I like chocolate milk but as long as we both get our vtiman d that's all that matters


I get my D and its not from no milk!!


----------



## Firehazard

pookie! said:


> I get my D and its not from no milk!!


Kinda like superman... I get my strength from the sun!


----------



## Carriana

Firehazard said:


> Kinda like superman... I get my strength from the sun!


In the PacNW?! What about October through April?


----------



## Clashez

Firehazard said:


> ^^^^ :flush:


Yeah cause "YOU HAVE"been to REAL dog fights and no body hardly ever fought papered dogs. Hell they had AM Staffords , Rottweilers , German shepherds and mix breeds in the ring.


----------



## pookie!

Firehazard said:


> Kinda like superman... I get my strength from the sun!


well he's someones son  LOLOL



Clashez said:


> Yeah cause "YOU HAVE"been to REAL dog fights and no body hardly ever fought papered dogs. Hell they had AM Staffords , Rottweilers , German shepherds and mix breeds in the ring.


Dafuq are you talking about kiddo? LOL


----------



## Clashez

pookie! said:


> Dafuq are you talking about kiddo? LOL


I'm drunk lol


----------



## pookie!

You should probably hold off on posting till tomorrow then lol


----------



## Firehazard

pookie! said:


> well he's someones son  LOLOL
> 
> Dafuq are you talking about kiddo? LOL


You get it  Yes .. the Son 

He's trolling for a good :flush: can tell by the first comment, running a minnkota


----------



## Just Tap Pits

Clashez said:


> Yeah cause "YOU HAVE"been to REAL dog fights and no body hardly ever fought papered dogs. Hell they had AM Staffords , Rottweilers , German shepherds and mix breeds in the ring.


Hahahahaha your expertise is appreciated.....


----------



## Firehazard

Carriana said:


> In the PacNW?! What about October through April?


I forgot you know all to well that there aint but a glimer in 7-9 months of the year.. LOL Folks in boise say n. idaho is drear LOL

The sun SURE feels good when it shines though ... Mmmm sure appreciate it, I know that.


----------



## Carriana

Firehazard said:


> I forgot you know all to well that there aint but a glimer in 7-9 months of the year.. LOL Folks in boise say n. idaho is drear LOL
> 
> The sun SURE feels good when it shines though ... Mmmm sure appreciate it, I know that.


Oh yes, and I also know (I'm sure you knew this already but I'll say it anyway) that the angle of the sun during those months actually doesn't allow us folks up here in the northern hemisphere to absorb vitamin d (the actual vitamin, not the innuendo...pookie! ) through sun exposure.

Anywho, let's bring 'er back around on topic. Soooo, how about them Razor's Edge dogs? I hear that Dave Williams guy mixed in some of that gator mouf blood .


----------



## KMdogs

rocthebully said:


> Yes I remember that, it was a misprint,* I think apbt people here know a lot about the apbt but not the am bully.imo a lot of bully owners know about both breeds cause they respect where they came from and a lot of them started with pitbulls, but apbt people don't give any respect to the bully world which is why they could care less about anything and everything that has to do with the movement.*


:rofl: Most "bully owners" don't know :flush: about their own dogs let alone about the APBT.. Most "bully owners" believe pedigree makes the dog vs function and ability, most put too much stock on what isn't important except in their little show world.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Most people involved in Bulldogs on this forum see the Bullies for what they are and see the entirety of the situation vs the very, VERY narrow beam of light in a world of shit.

I don't know where you formed that statement but i form mine based on what is said and seeing what people do.

I've tried looking at the bully world the way bully owners look at the bully world, i have. I have done my research, followed pedigrees, looked at breeding practices as well as what succeeds in the ABKC.. It ain't pretty and only confirmed what i already believed.

Clashez - Ive *never* fed a show bred anything nor have i stepped foot in a show ring.


----------



## Rudy4747

Even back in the days of old dogmen kept written pedigrees of their dog. No not all were reg with ukc akc. But you got to the uic one histed pitting event even had there own pit rules. So most dog had some form of ped. The folk pitting mutts and mixes most likely never ran across areal dogman.


----------



## Firehazard

show dog.. show dog .. show dog..


----------



## rocthebully

Its ok to disagree km, everyone has there own opinion, but the history of the American bully is easy to look at cause its a new breed everyone knows where and when it started, but you would need a time machine to find out the truth about the apbt.


----------



## Just Tap Pits

rocthebully said:


> Its ok to disagree km, everyone has there own opinion, but the history of the American bully is easy to look at cause its a new breed everyone knows where and when it started, but you would need a time machine to find out the truth about the apbt.


No, the history about the apbt is WELL documented. Pedigrees, pit reports, books, all sorts of documentation.


----------



## dday

KMdogs said:


> :rofl: Most "bully owners" don't know :flush: about their own dogs let alone about the APBT.. Most "bully owners" believe pedigree makes the dog vs function and ability, most put too much stock on what isn't important except in their little show world.
> 
> I couldn't disagree with you more. Most people involved in Bulldogs on this forum see the Bullies for what they are and see the entirety of the situation vs the very, VERY narrow beam of light in a world of shit.
> 
> I don't know where you formed that statement but i form mine based on what is said and seeing what people do.
> 
> I've tried looking at the bully world the way bully owners look at the bully world, i have. I have done my research, followed pedigrees, looked at breeding practices as well as what succeeds in the ABKC.. It ain't pretty and only confirmed what i already believed.
> 
> Clashez - Ive *never* fed a show bred anything nor have i stepped foot in a show ring.


Good post KM;
I am definitely not hating on bully's, because they are hear to stay and this whole argument has been beat to death. First no one is ever going to really know the actual truth about bullys for several reasons.
And the main one is money, when the bully's first hit the scene they where promoted as pure extra large, extra strong apbt's that where created using large apbt to large apbt's. These creators started asking huge amounts of money for their new creations. And you have to understand that this was happening at a time that the majority of the population didn't even know what an apbt was, so it was real easy to fool people. These new dogs where traffic stoppers, no one ever saw a dog that looked like that before. What kind of money do you think they could of got for their dogs if they said they where mixed mutts? And what kind of backlash would happen if DW admitted that there where other breeds mixed in other than AST's? He knows that the AST is considered the same breed by certain people so it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Of coarse this is just my opinion, and I can't prove a word of it!


----------



## pookie!

Just Tap Pits said:


> No, the history about the apbt is WELL documented. Pedigrees, pit reports, books, all sorts of documentation.


This. One of the most well documented breeds of dog in the history of dogs.


----------



## KMdogs

rocthebully said:


> Its ok to disagree km, everyone has there own opinion, but the history of the American bully is easy to look at cause its a new breed everyone knows where and when it started, but you would need a time machine to find out the truth about the apbt.


Again you are wrong, there is no breed in the world that has more in depth documentations involving one breed of dog. The American bully is loosely documented at best and one of the MOST hung, falsified and skewed out of almost any breed. Especially a "new breed"..

You are continuing to prove my last post about how bully owners know little about their own let alone the apbt. (Not every single person but as a majority, which is shown on this very forum as well)

But I'm sure you'll never see it that way.

And no I'm not "hating bullies", that's another thing I find amusing. When you confronting the bully crowd if you mention something that bursts the little bubble you are automatically a "hater" lmao


----------



## Just Tap Pits

KMdogs said:


> Again you are wrong, there is no breed in the world that has more in depth documentations involving one breed of dog. The American bully is loosely documented at best and one of the MOST hung, falsified and skewed out of almost any breed. Especially a "new breed"..
> 
> You are continuing to prove my last post about how bully owners know little about their own let alone the apbt. (Not every single person but as a majority, which is shown on this very forum as well)
> 
> But I'm sure you'll never see it that way.
> 
> And no I'm not "hating bullies", that's another thing I find amusing. When you confronting the bully crowd if you mention something that bursts the little bubble you are automatically a "hater" lmao


And bashing....... cant forget bashing.


----------



## Katey

As I'm reading this I'm starting to see the truth behind the statement, that dog owners resemble their dogs (in character at least).

Take a tough dog, and a game dog and look at the majority of the owners. Take a cur dog, and a soft dog and look at the majority of the owners.

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----------



## KMdogs

Katey said:


> As I'm reading this I'm starting to see the truth behind the statement, that dog owners resemble their dogs (in character at least).
> 
> Take a tough dog, and a game dog and look at the majority of the owners. Take a cur dog, and a soft dog and look at the majority of the owners.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


There is quite a bit of truth to that, aint it? After all, anyone can ruin a good dog.

Curs go for curs, softies go for softies, etc.


----------



## Firehazard

KMdogs said:


> There is quite a bit of truth to that, aint it? After all, anyone can ruin a good dog.
> 
> Curs go for curs, softies go for softies, etc.


yup ... dogs take after their owners .. sumthin' like that ain't it.?.


----------



## dday

Katey said:


> As I'm reading this I'm starting to see the truth behind the statement, that dog owners resemble their dogs (in character at least).
> 
> Take a tough dog, and a game dog and look at the majority of the owners. Take a cur dog, and a soft dog and look at the majority of the owners.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Actually I agree with you 100%. That is why the apbt, or even some bully's for that matter, is not meant for everyone.


----------



## Katey

dday said:


> Actually I agree with you 100%. That is why the apbt, or even some bully's for that matter, is not meant for everyone.


I work for a guy who I couldn't quite read, a few months after I started working for him I pasted him running one day. He had a beautiful black staffiebull keeping time with him. It has changed the way I see him, but it makes sense as I get to know him.

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----------



## ames

I thought it was dogs look like their owners? lol just messing with you guys. I hear you but does that work for all dogs or just APBT and American bullies...

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----------



## Katey

I don't think so.

My sister has a Pekingese Pomeranian mix (freaking "designer dog") and it makes perfect sense. Her dog doesn't so dirt and outdoors, needs to be groomed everyday. Doesn't do exercise.

Or look at agility show folks that have Border Collies. They have to be doing something all the time and crony rolling everything. Haha

Makes perfect sense to me.

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----------



## pitbullmamanatl

Just Tap Pits said:


> I have stayed out of this until now for good reason. What you ssid above is garbage. The apbt did not "evolve" into anything. Papers were hung and breeds were crossed. Dave wilson has admitted to that. Do not confuse the two or come in here and say they're the same. All dave wilson did was make a mix breed designer dog that he campaigned and made into what it is today "the american bully". All opinions aside what I just stated are the facts. Theyre their own breed with their own registry that the orginator made. Tell dave wilson he has pit bulls and he will mostly likely say no he doesnt he has american bullies.


Dave Wilson said that some people had mixed and hung he has never said he himself did this. I've looked him in the eye and asked him and believe me he did no such thing.


----------



## Just Tap Pits

I think its a matter of opinion at this point. The actual truth is burried under years and years of bs. Case in point Ed Eddington looked adba judges in the eyes and ssid he never cross bred either. Im not bashing (gotta watch thay so no accusations are made) just givin an opinion. Idk too many folks who would outright say "eff yeah I hung them papers, now give me $2500 for a pup" lol.


----------



## pitbullmamanatl

Just Tap Pits said:


> I think its a matter of opinion at this point. The actual truth is burried under years and years of bs. Case in point Ed Eddington looked adba judges in the eyes and ssid he never cross bred either. Im not bashing (gotta watch thay so no accusations are made) just givin an opinion. Idk too many folks who would outright say "eff yeah I hung them papers, now give me $2500 for a pup" lol.


Agreed. I'm so tired of talking about it I usually just let it ride and I'm back on that train lol

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----------



## Just Tap Pits

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Agreed. I'm so tired of talking about it I usually just let it ride and I'm back on that train lol
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Me of all ppl understands that lol. Like I said in a pm I sent, I dnt mean nothing behind what I say I just give my opinion for what its worth.


----------



## DieselsMommie

I saw a dog on our morning walk today and asked the owner what he was. He said the mom was an APBT & the dad an AmStaff. Then the chick goes: so I guess that makes him an American bully. I didn't argue with her bc what the hell do I know, but wouldn't that just make her dog a pitterstaff since the am bully is their own breed now?

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----------



## duramacr

DieselsMommie said:


> I saw a dog on our morning walk today and asked the owner what he was. He said the mom was an APBT & the dad an AmStaff. Then the chick goes: so I guess that makes him an American bully. I didn't argue with her bc what the hell do I know, but wouldn't that just make her dog a pitterstaff since the am bully is their own breed now?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Everybody talkin about Dave Wilson
But nobody said anything about
Shepard's dogs. Dax and miagi now
Those are mixed dog. Dave Wilson
Should of ban those dogs and all
Their offsprings from the abkc. And
The wannabe gangsters, and thugs
Go out and pay over 3 grand for these
Mutts with hung papers. Anybody
Here with a gottyline dog should
Take a look at how their messin up
The breed.


----------



## pitbullmamanatl

duramacr said:


> Everybody talkin about Dave Wilson
> But nobody said anything about
> Shepard's dogs. Dax and miagi now
> Those are mixed dog. Dave Wilson
> Should of ban those dogs and all
> Their offsprings from the abkc. And
> The wannabe gangsters, and thugs
> Go out and pay over 3 grand for these
> Mutts with hung papers. Anybody
> Here with a gottyline dog should
> Take a look at how their messin up
> The breed.


Saying that all Gottyline dogs are messing up the breed is a generalization. For every unsound Gottyline dog I'll show you an unsound RE dog. As far as Miagi he is not able to be ABKC registered nor are his offspring. I've paid over 3 grand for a dog before and I am far from a wannabe gangster or thug and I have ABKC champions so please watch your blanket statements and generalizations.


----------



## duramacr

Your right, my bad for generalizing, I've been to 2 shows only just to watch, and the
majority were these types of people. I have no problem with that but these are the 
types of people who are paper hanging. I got nothing against the abkc, just stating
that they should overlook what their registering a little closer.


----------



## duramacr

No wonder Marco Suarez is selling sensei, he can't show him, his grandpa is Dax.
I wasn't aware that the ABKC banned dax and miagi dogs.


----------



## pitbullmamanatl

duramacr said:


> No wonder Marco Suarez is selling sensei, he can't show him, his grandpa is Dax.
> I wasn't aware that the ABKC banned dax and miagi dogs.


Dax has not been banned. Only Miagi and it has always been that way. Marco is selling that dog for his own reasons.


----------



## pitbullmamanatl

duramacr said:


> Your right, my bad for generalizing, I've been to 2 shows only just to watch, and the
> majority were these types of people. I have no problem with that but these are the
> types of people who are paper hanging. I got nothing against the abkc, just stating
> that they should overlook what their registering a little closer.


Who are the types of people that are paperhanging? Trust you have no clue who has done what. Furthermore, there is a committee that does look over new registrations. The ABKC was formed in the fall of 2004 to validate this breed and name. The ABKC opened up studbooks that day and set a criterion to go by for dogs to be eligible to enter the studbooks as brood stock. In 2008 the criterion changed and limited the stock to even more specific dogs, these dogs had to carry Razors Edge or Gottline ancestors of at least 50% of that blood or lines making up those lines. In 2010 we began to see more dogs carrying traits outside the breed and more traits favoring other breeds, so a new criterion was added and dogs applying for registration into the studbooks had to submit pictures as well to ensure they fit into the breed standard and did not posses traits that were outside the breed traits. In 2011 the criterion was made even tighter to even request the DNA on certain dogs that had borderline traits. All if this is to preserve the breed for its future health and stability, as well as its purity as a new breed thus why the ABKC claims to hold the only true stud books for the American Bully. Dogs are denied registration that do not fit this criteria.


----------



## duramacr

Pitbull mama, I don't mean to offend
You and I have nothing against the
Abkc. Maybe I need to be educated,
But I am a member on the elite edge
Board and I've seen so many dogs
There that don't fit the standard at
All. Some look like French bulldog
Mixes, English bulldogs, pugs. And
These people are advertising puppies
That are abkc registered. I'm sorry
I just don't understand why and how.
And some of them claim they go to
Shows. Now wouldn't an abkc judge
Be able to tell right away and pull
A dogs papers and DNA. I bet if they
Did this a couple of times people
Would think twice before they mix.


----------



## pitbullmamanatl

duramacr said:


> Pitbull mama, I don't mean to offend
> You and I have nothing against the
> Abkc. Maybe I need to be educated,
> But I am a member on the elite edge
> Board and I've seen so many dogs
> There that don't fit the standard at
> All. Some look like French bulldog
> Mixes, English bulldogs, pugs. And
> These people are advertising puppies
> That are abkc registered. I'm sorry
> I just don't understand why and how.
> And some of them claim they go to
> Shows. Now wouldn't an abkc judge
> Be able to tell right away and pull
> A dogs papers and DNA. I bet if they
> Did this a couple of times people
> Would think twice before they mix.


You're basing all of this off the new Elite Edge board that hardly any show ppl frequent anymore since Facebook took over. Yes, there are some dogs that don't fit the standard that are ABKC registered and that's unfortunate but that's with any registry.

Go to a show every weekend for a few years before you start making blanket statements regarding the ABKC and dogs registered within it. 
I just had my eyes dilated I'll write more when i can see clearly.

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