# ONE SIDED CONTRACTS?



## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

I recently started reading some of the Gopitbull poster's contracts, mostly after reading the co-ownership post. WOW! Some, not all, are truly onesided. 

-One person, only guarantees the pup for 48 hours and then only replaces it, if diagnosed as genetic, does not give money back...Not right
-Another person keeps co-ownership forever. I don't agree with this, once the person does what they say, you should sign off. 
-Another pereson takes a deposit, and then if the wrong sex is born, won't refund it and the person has to wait until the next litter...That is not fair. 
-Another person retains stud rights on all male pups. I don't agree with that either. The person could get the pup and take it to high levels, and not want to breed it, as that can interfere with high level competition.
-Offering to buy the dog back at 25% of paid price, if owner decides to sell. Not right>..

It is just crazy how one sided these contracts are. 
What about guaranteeing genetic defects until 2 yrs. 
What about refunding the money if a pup dies two days after it is recieved or has parvo off the plane.
What about requiring titles and health tests before the dog is bred, rather than just an age limit alone. These things are more reasonable, and would make the contract less one-sided. 

Also, a contract is not binding, unless both parties sign before a witness and have it stamped by a Notary of republic, or filed with a lawyer.


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

Some of these things in contracts are CRAP.......(not all terms)


If I buy an animal, the animal is MINE. There have been dogs that I was interested in but after reading some of the terms I have just walked away....


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

ok i just wrote a pretty long response and couldnt post it! grr. 


well to make things way shorter then i originally wanted, i do not have a problem with ne ones contract. i dont think it matters as long as the buyer is happy. none of this stuff is hidden infact it is spelled out for everyone to see. if someone want a pup- and has no problem with the contract fine. if someone wantsw a pup and has a problem with the contract they just shouldnt buy then.

as for the 25%deal. why should a breeder have to pay full price to buy back what they produced? i dont see that as a problem. i do not think breeding and running a kennel is cheap at all. it cost money to take care of pups before they go. plus they all need to see the vets. i dont know about you but the vets is pretty expensive. i just dont think a breeder should have to pay in full what they produced. i mean i see it as the breeder is buying the pup as a favor to the original buyer. i dont see a breeder going to a buyer and saying i want that dog back so i will pay 25%. i see it as the buyer going to the breeder for a favor. 


and for deposits. breeders arent the only people who want none refundable deposits from buyers. and if the buyer wants a male and a male isnt born. the buyer should already be aware of the fact they will have to wait. which shouldnt be a problem. because someone putting a donwpayemnt on a male before pups are born obviously likes the kennel and dogs enough to wait till the second litter. its not like they made a none refundable deposit for no reason.


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

If I give someone a deposit on pup and then it turns out that they don't end up having what I wanted then the breeder should refund the money. Who knows when the breeder would have another litter. I mean unless their a BYB and just popping pups out all over the place. I understand not giving the money back if someone just changes their mind. But I'll be danged if someone's gonna hold my money without delivering.


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## pitbullgirl22 (Jul 27, 2008)

:goodpost: Thats good Whit I never thought bout it like that


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

Thank you....LOL


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

i dont like the co own for stud rights forever thats not cool in my book if i buy a dog and if i feel i could offer our breed something by breeding with another dog i feel i should be able to breed id be cool with co own on breeding for the first 2 years then i want the pup all me


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> If I give someone a deposit on pup and then it turns out that they don't end up having what I wanted then the breeder should refund the money.


We have in our contract that the deposit is non-refundable. This is mainly to ensure that those actually buying are interested in following through. I have had one person put a deposit down and then not be able to pay for the pup when time came due and I did refund the money. If we did have someone put down a deposit and the sex they wanted was not born, I would refund their deposit. This is why I will only take 2 deposits on either sex before they are born.
However on the breeders part, if you put a deposit on a pup, once the pup is born the that dog is held for you. If you later decide that the dog is not for you or you dont want it, you potentially have cost me the sale on that dog. Other people could not get that pup for all those weeks because you had it on hold.

In my contract it also says I retain the right to stud to any male I produce. I like that. It does not mean that you cant breed the dog, it just means that if I have a female I would like to take to him, I can. Again that is all at my expense.



> Offering to buy the dog back at 25% of paid price, if owner decides to sell. Not right


Thats me. If you don't like it you dont have to buy from us. Quite simple.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Will a byb offer a refund of any sort?

Does a byb offer health testing?

Does a byb always have papers?

Does a byb care about the dogs like reputable breeders do?

*NO*


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## Pitlover0718 (Mar 23, 2009)

Bethb2007 said:


> -Offering to buy the dog back at 25% of paid price, if owner decides to sell. Not right>..


I think this is a good thing on the breeder's part. When you buy a pup, you should know that it is a long commitment. Yes, somethings things do happen and you may need to find a home for your dog. At least you know the dog would be in good hands with the breeder. IMO, the breeder is helping the buyer out by offering to pay _anything_ for the pup.



Roxy_Nie said:


> If I give someone a deposit on pup and then it turns out that they don't end up having what I wanted then the breeder should refund the money. Who knows when the breeder would have another litter. I mean unless their a BYB and just popping pups out all over the place. I understand not giving the money back if someone just changes their mind. But I'll be danged if someone's gonna hold my money without delivering.


I agree.


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> However on the breeders part, if you put a deposit on a pup, once the pup is born the that dog is held for you. If you later decide that the dog is not for you or you dont want it, you potentially have cost me the sale on that dog. Other people could not get that pup for all those weeks because you had it on hold.


I totally agree with this! If someone says they want the pup and put the money down then they shouldn't just be able to back out....


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

StaffyDaddy said:


> Will a byb offer a refund of any sort?
> 
> Does a byb offer health testing?
> 
> ...


WTH???????

Did you read anything that was posted? Your post makes no sense....


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Roxy_Nie said:


> WTH???????
> 
> Did you read anything that was posted? Your post makes no sense....


Maybe YOU didn't read my posts. It's silly to argue that contracts are one sided, when they are meant to ensure the well being of the dogs. A breeder should be responsible for what they produce, and a contract states just that. Different contracts will break down different when regarding specifics, but most of the things that people will complain about on a contract, is something that the breeder can't control.

I don't agree with the op for calling these contracts one sided, because every day there are bybs pumping out pups with NO contracts, showing people just how little regard they have for what they are producing. My post was all sarcasm, because there are people getting dogs from shelters and bybs, and then there's people who COMPLAIN about a contract. Well then, they don't have to buy, and it just goes to show that they don't meet the guidelines a breeder has for his litter's homes.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Bethb2007 said:


> I recently started reading some of the Gopitbull poster's contracts, mostly after reading the co-ownership post. WOW! Some, not all, are truly onesided.


I respect your opinion but disagree with it. I disagree because I think the "not right" after all of your points belittle the very breeders on this site, who are making a difference in the breed. What backyard breeder do you know that would even THINK to make a contract going over so much detail??



Bethb2007 said:


> -One person, only guarantees the pup for 48 hours and then only replaces it, if diagnosed as genetic, does not give money back...Not right


If that same pup was not sold, and was kept on the yard, *and it died*, because of some environmental issue, *and was not something genetic*, then *the breeder would take that loss*. The breeder can _only_ guarantee that they didn't pass anything genetic. If you notice, most contracts state that they will take action if a vet determines that it is a genetic problem.



Bethb2007 said:


> -Another person keeps co-ownership forever. I don't agree with this, once the person does what they say, you should sign off.


Yes, but if you don't like it, then you don't have to sign anything. Mosts of these contracts are co-own because a responsible breeder will be held accountable for the pups well being, SEEING THEY DID PRODUCE THE DOGS... and if not on their yard, then they must *make sure* that as long as the dog is alive, that those conditions are met. IMO if you take care of the dog, and show or work it like you state you plan on, then there is nothing to be worried about.



Bethb2007 said:


> -Another pereson takes a deposit, and then if the wrong sex is born, won't refund it and the person has to wait until the next litter...That is not fair.


Then would you rather have a pup of the opposite gender? You shouldn't blame the breeder that the dogs did not produce your desired gender. In fact, most people are jumping the gun buying pups from breeders before seeing the pups, or seeing their personalities. If your pup turns out to be HA, would it be unfair to cull the pup and offer you one out of next litter? That's the problem, people get puppy fever and they want and want and want and it's only to satisfy their wants, not taking into consideration that a responsible breeder will only breed from TIME TO TIME, so yes, you may have to wait if your pup isn't born. I picked one AFTER birth, maybe a little hasty but I am not dissatisfied with the outcome so far. I did not however, put a deposit down before the litter was whelped.



Bethb2007 said:


> -Another person retains stud rights on all male pups. I don't agree with that either. The person could get the pup and take it to high levels, and not want to breed it, as that can interfere with high level competition.


Chances are, some of those pups won't even be considered breeding stock. A lot of breeders come to you, with their bitch in heat, and that IMO causes little to no interference with competition. Saying that studding out a male that's on your property will hinder performance is like saying that if you alter a dog, it's energy level will decrease. That's a myth. I can see your point of view if you have to ship the dog back to the breeder, but in most cases, that is not how it goes.

I believe it's fair to reserve stud rights because it is a way for the breeder to preserve a bloodline, or produce more dogs with said trait. After all, breeding responsibly is about bettering the breed, so some male pups might meet that criteria, and I believe it is the breeders right to follow through and breed for those characteristics which the dog has.



Bethb2007 said:


> -Offering to buy the dog back at 25% of paid price, if owner decides to sell. Not right>..


Most of these breeders are actually taking a loss when you buy from them. Reputable breeders don't do it for money, just for the breed. So you have to consider any and all costs that go into pairing dogs up, yes that includes traveling to aquire dogs from someone else's yard, whelping, supplies, possible health issues, etc. I dont know enough about breeding to cover all that is needed, but I know it does get quite expensive.



Bethb2007 said:


> It is just crazy how one sided these contracts are.
> What about guaranteeing genetic defects until 2 yrs.
> What about refunding the money if a pup dies two days after it is recieved or has parvo off the plane.
> What about requiring titles and health tests before the dog is bred, rather than just an age limit alone. These things are more reasonable, and would make the contract less one-sided.
> ...


I agree with you on one thing. The guaranteeing genetic defects for a longer period of time... I wish more and more of this was covered, but oh well.

Now a pup getting parvo, that is another story. A breeder can guarantee health because they know the environment the pups are kept in. If your dog catches parvo 2 days later, there is a slim chance that they aquired it there, however the chance of contact with such a virus is higher once the pup leaves the yard. You are basically taking the dog into "the unknown" and that is why a breeder cannot replace the pup, because you took the pup out of the conditions it was living in.

all of this is JMO


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

StaffyDaddy said:


> Maybe YOU didn't read my posts. It's silly to argue that contracts are one sided, when they are meant to ensure the well being of the dogs. A breeder should be responsible for what they produce, and a contract states just that. Different contracts will break down different when regarding specifics, but most of the things that people will complain about on a contract, is something that the breeder can't control.
> 
> I don't agree with the op for calling these contracts one sided, because every day there are bybs pumping out pups with NO contracts, showing people just how little regard they have for what they are producing. My post was all sarcasm, because there are people getting dogs from shelters and bybs, and then there's people who COMPLAIN about a contract. Well then, they don't have to buy, and it just goes to show that they don't meet the guidelines a breeder has for his litter's homes.


Oh I read your POST..There was only one. I am not complaining about contracts. I am telling what I think about what the OP posted. Also just because a breeder has these conditions doesn't necessarily mean he cares about where the dogs go.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Roxy_Nie said:


> Oh I read your POST..There was only one. I am not complaining about contracts. I am telling what I think about what the OP posted. Also just because a breeder has these conditions doesn't necessarily mean he cares about where the dogs go.


right, i get what you're saying but an irresponsible breeder or one who does it for the money will not even HAVE a contract, and is LESS likely to care about where the dogs go. I think since there is overpopulation in this breed, like never before, that contracts play a role in the breed, because it does weed out the irresponsible owners. JMO


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

So just because a breeder has a contract they are responsible breeders?



And FYI I have seen BYB with contracts also...Take a look at Hoobly.com


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Roxy_Nie said:


> So just because a breeder has a contract they are responsible breeders?
> 
> And FYI I have seen BYB with contracts also...Take a look at Hoobly.com


No, that is not what I am saying at all. I think most breeders should have contracts, follow up on them, and so should the people purchasing a dog from said breeder/kennel.

I am not saying that only responsible breeders have contracts, or that bybs cant, it's about the content of the contract i suppose, and the goals of the breeder. if the breeder is only breeding every so often only when he feels like the dogs have proven themselves, well then they should have a contract so that people looking into purchasing from them know what is expected of them.

In some ways, a contract can be used to weed out undesired individuals, ones who wouldn't even think about the details of one... I dunno i got to go, but ill be back to post more on this


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## boogiebot (Oct 7, 2009)

well the contract is set by the breeder and we as a buyer can choose to accept or decline. its been posted in another thread but whoever you choose to get your pup from i believe that you need to have a personal relationship with. And go through the contract with a fine tooth comb. ask questions sometimes wording can seem more harsh than it seems. 

I agree with Staffydaddy that no BYB will buy back the dog from you at any price. If you look at OFK's contract he states that he will take the dog back from you for 25% of the cost. hopefully you would never have to part with your buddy. This is the first time i have seen a breeder offer such a thing. Kinda cool if you ask me


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

StaffyDaddy said:


> No, that is not what I am saying at all. I think most breeders should have contracts, follow up on them, and so should the people purchasing a dog from said breeder/kennel.
> 
> I am not saying that only responsible breeders have contracts, or that bybs cant, it's about the content of the contract i suppose, and the goals of the breeder. if the breeder is only breeding every so often only when he feels like the dogs have proven themselves, well then they should have a contract so that people looking into purchasing from them know what is expected of them.
> 
> In some ways, a contract can be used to weed out undesired individuals, ones who wouldn't even think about the details of one... I dunno i got to go, but ill be back to post more on this


good points! i really have to agree on the buying the dog back. i mean if a breeder buys the dog back from you i would see it as a breeder doing the buyer a big favor! like i already said i dont see the breeder approaching the buyer and asking for the dog back and only giving 25% of what it originally cost. i have heard of breeders just taking dogs back because they do not agree with how they are being kept. and i have heard of people returning dogs to breeders because of issues and not getting a dime back.


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## Sadie's Dad (Jul 9, 2009)

hell no they wont go said:


> good points! i really have to agree on the buying the dog back. i mean if a breeder buys the dog back from you i would see it as a breeder doing the buyer a big favor! like i already said i dont see the breeder approaching the buyer and asking for the dog back and only giving 25% of what it originally cost. i have heard of breeders just taking dogs back because they do not agree with how they are being kept. and i have heard of people returning dogs to breeders because of issues and not getting a dime back.


I would have to agree as well. I mean 25% of $500 is $125 right. So that is $125 more bucks than you would have if you gave it to a shelter, and you know that it's going to a good home.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

The contract I posted was for Typhoon and each contract might be different and many things on her contract did not apply because she knew what she was getting. Typhoon was an adult when sold.

I think opinions on contracts are always going to vary and some ppl will sell dogs and breeding rights while other want to retain them. I do not think one is better than the other it just depends what the breeder and owner want out of the relationship and dog. I have heard horror stories of ppl bringing dogs home with parvo and the breeder refusing to replace the dog, that is horrible, and horrible to think that they parvo when they breed dogs.

One thing I do not agree on because I have seen it time and time again is health guarantees for like 2 years. Owners can cause things like hip dysplasia, separation anxiety, and much more from not taking good care of the dog. Overweight dogs can develop hip dysplasia, diabetes, Kidney failure from high fat diets, and other things that are totally the fault of the owner. In a healthy normal weight dog it could be genetics but there are too many variables. I had a friends just go to court over neutering a dog who was under contract. The dog had separation anxiety that was created by the owners and the breeder warned against babying the dog. They said the dog was not breed worthy because he had separation anxiety and they neutered him. Now the breeder had no intentions on breeding the dog but the fact they broke the contract was why it ended up in court. The breeder won because they had a contract. 

Many things can go wrong and I DO think guaranteeing for the first year with certain conditions is necessary. I just had friend get burned from a HUGE rottie kennel known for Schutzhund working dogs. His pup at 5 months can't walk because he has such bad hip dysplasia and the breed basically said go **** yourself....... my friend spent 3,000 on a dog he has to place in a pet home or put down. That is just plane WRONG! 

So I think you can disagree with ppl's contracts but everyone has a different idea of what they want and if a contract does not work for you as a buyer you will find another breeder. And same for breeders, you will find the perfect match for how you prefer to do business.


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## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

A one sided contract that only protects the breeder, is worse than no contract at all. I am not be-littling breeders, because I did not name any names. 

In the past, I have signed contracts from breeders, but all the contracts protected the buyer as well.
All the contracts I received from breeders, contained these things:
1. Guaranteed health (hips/heart) until 2 yrs. Then if dog was not healthy replaced, as long as not bred.
2. Gave 48 hours, after receiving pup, to check by vet, if had genetic or communicable disease, purchase price was refunded, minus shipping.
3. Deposits were sent in either after litter was whelped, to pick sex, or if sent in before would refund if no pups of that sex.
4. Pups were also guaranteed not to have major faults, such as bad bites, ect, or would be replaced, with pup of equal value.
5. The two show pups I purchased, the contract also stated if i had to get rid of dog, and the breeder would get first right of refusal, but would either offer another pup in future or original purchase price. 
Of course they had their conditions for themselves such as how the dogs were to be housed, vetted, and trained, but they also had protection for the buyer. 

It is also amazing to me that people who have not done very much with their dogs, or are new into the breed themselves, have these elaborate, long one-sided contracts.


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## April (Oct 19, 2009)

The simple answer is just don't buy the pup if you don't agree.
Those breeders are in it for the money so your not going to change his mind.
Unless you pay extra


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Beth you are right, you did not call anyone out, I just owned up to what I saw you dislike in the contracts. What applied to me I dont mind talking about. I am not above learning or changing my mind about things.

I dont know if you were referring to mine when you were quoting the 48 hour vet check. WE DO refund any dog that is vet checked within 48 hours and there is a genetic defect or communicable desease. It says that in the contract. The reason that is there is because when dogs leave our place they are guaranteed healthy. However I can not control what environment one choses to place the puppy in. So outside of 48 hours I have no control over the health of that pup. I can just guarantee how it leaves my yard.

Also in our contract it talks about no refunds or no money back in several instances. It also says unless other arrangements are made with us. The number one reason for this is it discourages BYB and that type people from purchasing from us. Contracts and stipulations push the wrong crowd away for the most part. It is another way we try to ensure that the dogs go to happy, healthy loving homes. While it does say no refunds I am not unreasonable. I have before and will work with people who get dogs from us. I have also refunded dogs. On the 25% it also states that they offer the dog back to us at that price, IF we chose not to purchase the dog it says we will draw up a new contract for them to use with a buyer they may find and we will assist them in finding a new home.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> Those breeders are in it for the money so your not going to change his mind.


Are you talking to me?


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

April said:


> The simple answer is just don't buy the pup if you don't agree.
> Those breeders are in it for the money so your not going to change his mind.
> Unless you pay extra


that is a very vague statement. if you are talking about bybs i agree. if you are talking about most reputable breeders i think you are very wrong. if i call someone a reputable breeder, that includes the fact they are not in it for money but for preserving whatever breed it is they breed. i can not say any reputable breeders i know are in it for money. no matter what breed it is they work with.


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

Just so everyone knows I am not saying that I don't believe in contracts. I think it is a great thing when done right. Shoot my mother bred Doberman's when I was a kid. In her contract you have to even agree to a home check. That was one thing I thought was awesome. I mean rescues do it, how come breeders don't anymore?


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## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

I was not referring to any one person on here. I happened to read several contracts that people posted after the co-ownership thing. Many people placed links to their puppy contracts, co-ownerships, and dog sales page. I picked out the terms that I felt are really one-sided. 

The 48 hour thing bothers me because: if a dog has parvo, lepto, distemper, ect. in the 48 hours from the time shipped or picked up, it was received at the breeders yard. They should refund the whole puppy price, not replace it with another pup from the same litter that may also have it. 

I don't feel a contract makes a breeder reputable, a breeder is either reputable or they are not. I just did not read any contract on here that seemed to help the buyer and the breeder out, they seemed one-sided,(for the breeder). I guess I was just hoping to see a guarantee with the contract, not contracts that only protect the breeder. I guess I am disapointed, with what I found.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I can see and understand to a point your side of the arguement. To this date, lets keep our fingers crossed, I have never had a problem. Hopefully we wont and if one should arise I hope we could work it out. Again Im not unreasonable.

We had a pup one time the owner called us several months after they had bought the dog. They thought it was having problems walking suddenly. It would just lay around and whimper and cry when it tried to stand. I was worried so I told them to take the dog to the vet and get some x rays. I also go the number to the vet and spoke with them when they took the dog in there and gave them my contact info. I told her that if there was a problem with the hips we would take care of it and refund her money. For 24 hours my guts did flips. Come to found out, he son had knocked the pup off the porch and it had broken it leg!! We were glad the pup was going to be ok, but I was ready to take care of my end if need be.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Do you breed? what do you have on your contracts if you? I understand where you are coming from and I have seen horrible contracts too. I really agree that a contract does not make you a reputable breeder at all! I know many that some would call top notch breeders and I have seen what they have done to ppl who bought puppies from them. NOT good at all, and some just get into nasty disputes over breeding right and showing schedules. 

What kind of guarantee seems reasonable to you? Like I said in the earlier post why would a breeder want to guarantee something for lets say 2 years when the environmental conditions play such a big part in the dogs health?

Just recently I saw someone complaining about the bad feet on a dog with splayed toes. The line of dogs that it came from all had good feet and the bad feet only started when the dog was crated almost 24-7 and the feet went flat..... Was that the breeders fault that after 2 years the feet went flat due the living conditions? No, so I am just curious if you breed what you guarantee and why.
I do not produce many dogs and the ones that will be bred in the future are pretty much staying in my yard so I can be picky about contracts. Other breeders who produce a few litters a year I can totally understand shorter health guarantee's. But again all of this is opinion.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> I can see and understand to a point your side of the arguement. To this date, lets keep our fingers crossed, I have never had a problem. Hopefully we wont and if one should arise I hope we could work it out. Again Im not unreasonable.
> 
> We had a pup one time the owner called us several months after they had bought the dog. They thought it was having problems walking suddenly. It would just lay around and whimper and cry when it tried to stand. I was worried so I told them to take the dog to the vet and get some x rays. I also go the number to the vet and spoke with them when they took the dog in there and gave them my contact info. I told her that if there was a problem with the hips we would take care of it and refund her money. For 24 hours my guts did flips. Come to found out, he son had knocked the pup off the porch and it had broken it leg!! We were glad the pup was going to be ok, but I was ready to take care of my end if need be.


:goodpost: and that is the way it should be!


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> We have in our contract that the deposit is non-refundable. This is mainly to ensure that those actually buying are interested in following through. I have had one person put a deposit down and then not be able to pay for the pup when time came due and I did refund the money. If we did have someone put down a deposit and the sex they wanted was not born, I would refund their deposit. This is why I will only take 2 deposits on either sex before they are born.
> However on the breeders part, if you put a deposit on a pup, once the pup is born the that dog is held for you. If you later decide that the dog is not for you or you dont want it, you potentially have cost me the sale on that dog. Other people could not get that pup for all those weeks because you had it on hold.
> 
> In my contract it also says I retain the right to stud to any male I produce. I like that. It does not mean that you cant breed the dog, it just means that if I have a female I would like to take to him, I can. Again that is all at my expense.
> ...


i like business done like that most breeders i talked to dont want the customer breed the dog at all and with the refund i agree if a buyer puts a deposit down then decides they dont want the pup then they shouldnt get a refund


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

staffydaddy said most breeders take a loss when breeding,or reputable breeders take a loss most times,something along those lines.
I disagree,
they do not take a loss,or they wouldnt be able to do it,they may break even,or make little profit,but they try there damnest not to go broke doing this,i mean if you consitantly loss money breeding you wouldnt keep doing it,it makes no sense.
And if someone does profit,and breeds right,good for them,you can put a coast on good dogs bred right,but they dont come cheap,[and certinly arent 5000$ and up,lol].jmo,jmo,jmo


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## boogiebot (Oct 7, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> I can see and understand to a point your side of the arguement. To this date, lets keep our fingers crossed, I have never had a problem. Hopefully we wont and if one should arise I hope we could work it out. Again Im not unreasonable.
> 
> We had a pup one time the owner called us several months after they had bought the dog. They thought it was having problems walking suddenly. It would just lay around and whimper and cry when it tried to stand. I was worried so I told them to take the dog to the vet and get some x rays. I also go the number to the vet and spoke with them when they took the dog in there and gave them my contact info. I told her that if there was a problem with the hips we would take care of it and refund her money. For 24 hours my guts did flips. Come to found out, he son had knocked the pup off the porch and it had broken it leg!! We were glad the pup was going to be ok, but I was ready to take care of my end if need be.


OFK that is a really stand up thing on your part to do. Glad to hear that had this been something that was caused from genetics you would have steeped in. This maybe a bit off topic but did the dog make a full recovery???


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Apparently there is NOTHING wrong with any of our contracts and they are doing EXACTLY what I had hoped they would do!!!



> Well he was a family friend, anyways I'm not into dog shows or trying to find the
> perfect pit traits
> 
> Quote:
> ...


The contracts work!!!! they weed them out!!!! I feel so much better now!


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Not going to get into the whole debate thing here as I don't really breed but I don't need a contract on anything I happen to sell, If I don't know you personally you won't get a dog/puppy from me, I really don't care how much money you got 

To many dumb a$$es in this world getting there hands on these dogs as it is


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## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

Good post Marty. I agree. Contracts don't mean anything. If you don't like someone or don't trust them, just don't sell them a dog. I have an oral contract/guarantee, and can give it in writing, but rarely use it, as we don't sell to people we don't feel we know. I thnk certain contracts, just make more breeders feel justified in breeding. 

I guess what I am trying to say, (and I don't want to fight with anyone on here), I can't believe someone would buy a dog on contract where it does not protect them at all, and just keeps the breeder from being sued, ect. Some contracts keep the breeder from being responsible for anything. Plus, so few people are into this breed for more than 5-6 years, who says the breeder will be even be there for buyer later on. 

My whole point, is I did not see any contract, that protected the buyer, prevented the buer/owner from over-breeding, or guaranteed the dog . Those are just my observations, i guess a newbie would not notice those things.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

cane76 said:


> staffydaddy said most breeders take a loss when breeding,or reputable breeders take a loss most times,something along those lines.
> I disagree,
> they do not take a loss,or they wouldnt be able to do it,they may break even,or make little profit,but they try there damnest not to go broke doing this,i mean if you consitantly loss money breeding you wouldnt keep doing it,it makes no sense.
> And if someone does profit,and breeds right,good for them,you can put a coast on good dogs bred right,but they dont come cheap,[and certinly arent 5000$ and up,lol].jmo,jmo,jmo


Since I breed really for what I want and not to sell puppies I do take a loss the few time I have bred. This last litter was crazy!

It cost me 900 with vet bills and supplies to whelp and get 2 puppies. Then the owner of the dam got 1 pup and I kept the other. Ty did not turn out for me so I sold her on a co-own for 350 because just wanted to get my money back on her ear crop. With as much training as the pup had I could have got a lot more for her but I just wanted her to have a good home and I really do not care about the money.

I also know some breeders who do the same thing and do not really end out ahead. Then you have those BYB selling bullies for 15,000, I am in the wrong business!  lmao

Beth so I guess you are not a breeder? You didn't answer my questions because I am really interested to know what you think is reasonable. The funny thing is I have seen worse and more strict contracts for recuse dogs than from some breeders.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

cane76 said:


> staffydaddy said most breeders take a loss when breeding,or reputable breeders take a loss most times,something along those lines.
> I disagree,
> they do not take a loss,or they wouldnt be able to do it,they may break even,or make little profit,but they try there damnest not to go broke doing this,i mean if you consitantly loss money breeding you wouldnt keep doing it,it makes no sense.
> And if someone does profit,and breeds right,good for them,you can put a coast on good dogs bred right,but they dont come cheap,[and certinly arent 5000$ and up,lol].jmo,jmo,jmo


Ok it may not be as extreme as them taking a loss, but i have that the reputable breeders aren't making a living off of this.. maybe back in the day, but anyone making a living off of selling pups these days, I wouldn't consider reputable. They'd tell you any lie to make that buck.

I do get what you're saying, I don't think it's wrong for them to bank a quick buck, as long as THAT's not their goal. A lot of these breeders also put their profits back into their yards, and while that's not exactly taking a loss, its money going into bettering their yard. THATs MY opinion.


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## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

Yes, Lisa from PK9, I am a breeder. However, unlike many on here, I am not constantly posting pics of my dog and hoping to sell the pups, Or proudly posting links to contracts that are not very good, that lead to websites with pups for sale. I have finished close to 19 UKC champions, 2 grands, bred 2 AKC "CH"s, and pointed dogs with ADBA,. I have earned lots of weightpull titles in 4 different orgs, done 2 U-CDs, 1 schH1, 2 SchHBhs, competed in several PP tournaments. I also have kept the same phone number for 20 years so when I do sell a pup, the buyer can get back with me. I also, stand behind the few breedings, I have done. 

I do have a copy of my guarantee/puppy contract, and I will email it to you, after you email me a pedigree of your blue gamedogs. Does that sound like a fair deal?


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Bethb2007 said:


> However, unlike many on here, I am not constantly posting pics of my dog and hoping to sell the pups, Or proudly posting links to contracts that are not very good, that lead to websites with pups for sale.


Could you be specific?


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## hell no they wont go (Oct 4, 2007)

Bethb2007 said:


> Yes, Lisa from PK9, I am a breeder. However, unlike many on here, I am not constantly posting pics of my dog and hoping to sell the pups, Or proudly posting links to contracts that are not very good, that lead to websites with pups for sale. I have finished close to 19 UKC champions, 2 grands, bred 2 AKC "CH"s, and pointed dogs with ADBA,. I have earned lots of weightpull titles in 4 different orgs, done 2 U-CDs, 1 schH1, 2 SchHBhs, competed in several PP tournaments. I also have kept the same phone number for 20 years so when I do sell a pup, the buyer can get back with me. I also, stand behind the few breedings, I have done.
> 
> I do have a copy of my guarantee/puppy contract, and I will email it to you, after you email me a pedigree of your blue gamedogs. Does that sound like a fair deal?


maybe its just me but i havent really noticed this. the only times i have seen breeders here posting pics or links is because it is asked for by us. i mean yeah there is the authorized breeder section...but we like to keep up to date with the breeders here. i think most of us see them as friends more then a breeder and like friends we like to be kept up to date with what our breeders here are doing...mostly because we LOVE puppy pics!!!!!


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

hell no they wont go said:


> maybe its just me but i havent really noticed this. the only times i have seen breeders here posting pics or links is because it is asked for by us. i mean yeah there is the authorized breeder section...but we like to keep up to date with the breeders here. i think most of us see them as friends more then a breeder and like friends we like to be kept up to date with what our breeders here are doing...mostly because we LOVE puppy pics!!!!!


the breeders here are some of our most knowledgeable, reputable members. the staff and community itself had them approved for them to be in that section. that is why i ask if you could be specific, because there are people that come in here time to time, saying they breed, and normally cause some contreversy.. Wanted to see who you were referring to in your post.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Bethb2007 said:


> Yes, Lisa from PK9, I am a breeder. However, unlike many on here, I am not constantly posting pics of my dog and hoping to sell the pups, Or proudly posting links to contracts that are not very good, that lead to websites with pups for sale. I have finished close to 19 UKC champions, 2 grands, bred 2 AKC "CH"s, and pointed dogs with ADBA,. I have earned lots of weightpull titles in 4 different orgs, done 2 U-CDs, 1 schH1, 2 SchHBhs, competed in several PP tournaments. I also have kept the same phone number for 20 years so when I do sell a pup, the buyer can get back with me. I also, stand behind the few breedings, I have done.
> 
> I do have a copy of my guarantee/puppy contract, and I will email it to you, after you email me a pedigree of your blue gamedogs. Does that sound like a fair deal?


Wow such hostility! :roll: I had no intentions on making an argument about it I know you breed but you just were posting that you were concerned for the new buyers out there. Since you called some of us out in what we have in our contracts I thought you would be willing to share yours. What does my dogs ped have to do with anything? Game blues? Last I knew I did not fight my blue dogs so I do not have game blues.

If you have not noticed this is a message board and a social community that is what it is used for is sharing pictures, stories, and info on dogs. Just because you are not a very active member does not make you any better than another member. The contracts that were posted were examples for new buyers on what some contracts look like. You have made it very clear that you disagree with those contracts and we all know it is your opinion but again that is all it is, your op. You have some great accomplishments on your dogs but what does that have to do with this thread? This threads is about contracts and since you are not willing to really give your opinion on what a good contract in your eyes is then this thread is going no where.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> You have some great accomplishments on your dogs but what does that have to do with this thread? This threads is about contracts and since you are not willing to really give your opinion on what a good contract in your eyes is then this thread is going no where.


Skkuuurrrrrrrrrrrr

:goodpost:


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

oh man i love a good debate
how did i miss this thread???
*Grabs some popcorn*


PS: i love you guys.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Bethb2007 said:


> I have an oral contract/guarantee, and can give it in writing, but rarely use it, as we don't sell to people we don't feel we know.


So you don't even have an actual contract its just your word that can go into writing? How does that make you better than any one else or make your contract any better?



Bethb2007 said:


> However, unlike many on here, I am not constantly posting pics of my dog and hoping to sell the pups,


We have a Authorized breeders section for a reason and other than that how is posting pics of your dogs trying to sell pups? This forum is here to share our dogs...

To me it seems you just want to complain and don't much care for what we have going on here so why are you on this site? Just to make rude accusations at breeders you don't agree with?


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Wait a second..... Roxy youre right, chino came with a contract. If he passed within the first 3 months, I would get another choice in the litter if still available and if not, then first pick of the next litter... But I talked him into fixing his bitch so that's not an issue anymore.

Not much of a contract though, nothing that I would even want to post here, I almost wouldn't even consider it one.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Bethb2007 said:


> I do have a copy of my guarantee/puppy contract, and I will email it to you,
> 
> Contracts don't mean anything.
> I have an oral contract/guarantee


Dude..... I'm not sure I even have to say anything when your quotes speak for you.
Get a grip! I mean, it's one thing to complain about how people price puppies, but doin' it over the method in which the breeder protects themselves and/or the puppy is just crazy. I have walked away from pups before because I didn't like the contract. BUT, that isn't to say that there shouldn't be one.

BTW, I know quite a few kennels that stand by their contracts and have taken pups and adults back, so seems the contracts are meaningful.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

*I am not a breeder, or ever plan on it, but I feel like your whole thread is an attack on some of our most valuable members. If you don't like the contracts, that is fine. But if you want to argue with members about what a contract should look like, and then state that yours is nothing more than a verbal agreement, well then you have the underhanded argument. *


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## Chavezpits (Aug 26, 2009)

Contracts are great but not binding in some instances.
Are contracts sometimes one sided? Hell yeah....
I am trying to protect our line and the dogs.
I have sold many dogs without contracts and we have never had any problems.
We ended up with great homes and they keep in contact with us and take good care of their dogs.
When we started more of the AKC we went to contracts.
That is our beginning and it needs to be protected.
I have many stories.....
selling dogs to friends with no contract because you trust them and are on the same page...bites you in the ass and now who knows what BYD they are breeding too....

having to drive to another state because owner wasn't updating us with pictures or anything. We were worried about our dog so we went and got the dog, the owner had never paid us a dime.

One of our puppies got sick and had to be put down and how we gave that family OUR pick of the litter because they were a great home and were so sad that they lost the pup no contract with them but we did the right thing

One of our pups had to come back due to the owners circimsatnces and we did not give any money back, we still have the pup and have not re-sold the pup.

We have our own rules that we live by: If we breed we have the room to keep everything from that litter. We are breeding for ourselves and not others so I am more than happy to keep everything. I have done this many times, we just wait until someone comes along that fits our dogs.


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## outrightpits (Sep 19, 2009)

i dont do contracts. if something really wrong ill refund.no deposits unless you wanted to pickup and it will be some time before your here (no refunds)im not selling a dog am going to want back.and thats how i buy.i keep it simple and fair.no need to stress over dogs.if you by from good known breeders no worries if your buying from pup peddlers expect problems. true breeders keep there rep peddlers only care about money.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

outrightpits said:


> i dont do contracts. if something really wrong ill refund.no deposits unless you wanted to pickup and it will be some time before your here (no refunds)im not selling a dog am going to want back.and thats how i buy.i keep it simple and fair.no need to stress over dogs.if you by from good known breeders no worries if your buying from pup peddlers expect problems. true breeders keep there rep peddlers only care about money.


wow...

What do you breed? and what do you breed for?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

outrightpits said:


> i dont do contracts. if something really wrong ill refund.no deposits unless you wanted to pickup and it will be some time before your here (no refunds)im not selling a dog am going to want back.and thats how i buy.i keep it simple and fair.no need to stress over dogs.if you by from good known breeders no worries if your buying from pup peddlers expect problems. true breeders keep there rep peddlers only care about money.


I am sorry but that sound like a puppy peddler statement in itself.


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## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

Hi,
I am not being hostile. Lisa asked me twice, on this thread, if I was a breeder. I responded that I was, and stated that I had titled multiple dogs, as a breeder. A breeder should do something with their dogs.

I don't post much, but I read a lot of posts, and Lisa has been secretive about her blue dogs ped, so I thought it would be fair to show her a copy of my contract, if she would show me a pedigree of her blue male, that she stated was all game lines(in prior posts), no show, no bully.

This is a social board, and I like coming to it. However, there are a lot of new people that come here, and I wanted them to know that if they do sign a contract, it should protect them, and the breeder. If it is one sided, it is no good to the puppy buyer. I never mentioned any kennel names. If you come on a public board, are selling pups, authorized breeder(whatever that means) and post links to you contract, you should be open to criticism, not offended by it. Especially when i did not mention any names.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Eh, mine guarantees the pup for 30 days replace the dog or refund the money. I reckon I'll post it up in the Co-own thread. 

IDK, if you don't like it don't sign it. Whether it all looks in the breeders favor to a selfish person, people who think about the bigger picture look at these kinds of contracts as a safety net for both parties within the transaction. Contracts should always be tailored to what you and the breeder expect out of the said dog for sale.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Bethb2007 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't post much, but I read a lot of posts, and Lisa has been secretive about her blue dogs ped, so I thought it would be fair to show her a copy of my contract, if she would show me a pedigree of her blue male, that she stated was all game lines(in prior posts), no show, no bully.
> .


Why should anything in my yard be your business? I have lots of peds of most of my dogs that are not online. Unless you get a pup from me my peds are no ones business. Since you think your contract is better than everyone else's I was just hoping you would post it. Why would I personally care to swap info with you like? My ped for your contract :rofl: I didn't know we were swapping info :hammer: I am still trying to figure out what my dogs ped has to do with your op


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> _IDK, if you don't like it don't sign it._ Whether it all looks in the breeders favor to a selfish person, people who think about the *bigger* picture look at these kinds of contracts as a *safety net* *for both parties* within the transaction. *Contracts should always be tailored to what you and the breeder expect out of the said dog for sale.*


:goodpost: RIGHT ON!


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

Ive never co owned a dog and don't plan on ever doing it, when i have a dog i want it to be MY dog. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with people co owning a dog I'm just stating its not something i would ever want to do. 

for the people that are mad about the criticism of this thread and feels it was targeted at there kennels... why not just explain why your contract it set up in the manner that it is and move on? i think Andy did a good job in explaining it all. rep points to you bud


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