# Breeding a blue to a blue fawn.



## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

Okay, a friend is a hobby byb. My old mutt was lonely and acting like she was on her last leg and he gave me a puppy. I raised the puppy and my old dog has plenty of life left in her, she likes puppies and dog companionship. But the mom of the puppy was a bit too game, there was fight over a hambone and my old dog needed some tending at the vets, my fence was old, he'd been wanting that dog back, the mom got hit by a car, the father of the puppy was grieving himself ill so I gave him the puppy back. People would see that 6 month old puppy and pull their wallets out but he wouldn't sell him. He bought the granddaughter of the father from a litter. I really wanted her, she was/is something special herself. I sent 40lbs of great puppy food home with him just for her. But a cousin lost a dog and the kids were crying and he gave them puppy. The cousin's job had him off working and the man's wife didn't feed the puppy right between 4 and 6 months. We made a deal. I said I'd do my best for the dog and agreed to let him line breed her grandfather one time for some pups next year. His old dog is really something special and a large part of why this puppy has such great conformation so don't lecture me about the line-breeding please. The man's uncle raises some fine dogs with great bloodlines and conformation and her grandfather is one of his. I grew up on a farm and my dad raised ****-hounds and some curs for catch dogs, pigs and bears. I could teach him a few things and make him better with dogs and he knows it. The feeding of dogs is a hot topic with me since the puppy was skinny although that was not his doing. I have been focused on health, conformation, and temperament. I have not researched color at all with regard to pitbulls. His dog is a blue and my dog is blue fawn. It is my understanding that breeding these two dogs can cause skin problems in the pups and future breeding should not be done between two dilutes. Is there enough of a health risk to the pups to go back on my word and not produce the litter I promised him? They are both healthy dogs with great conformation and in the world of byb that's almost a miracle.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

Game can not be proven in the US legally. A squabble over a ham bone, or other resource guarding is not game. 
Can we see a ped?
And yes recessive to recessive can cause health issues.
No one is going to harass you about line breeding here. Back yard breeding is a whole other story though. So I hope you have thick skin.


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

Well, I see the problems with Byb. They wind up on my doorstep from time to time. This man has a big heart and that does not always make for a good breeding decision. He answered an add about some puppies and when he got there, he felt he was looking at people who fight dogs. He went against his principles and bought the runt of the litter afraid she wouldn't survive long and no one else would buy her, and that was the first puppy's mom. Beast was a bully type dog due to the mother being a short black dog. Jaws were a bit large and he had splayed feet and he couldn't feel much, and he didn't know when to quit and he developed a jealous streak. He is in a great home and doing well with one other female dog. His owner lets him stay in the bedroom when company and children are over visiting. My main reason for returning the dog was that the man's dog was grieving and in need of company bad and it worked. I missed him terribly though and so did my old dog. I am really good at raising puppies and caring for them. Its been over 20 years since I raised a litter of puppies. Its a ton of work for me because I give them a good amount of my time. Its not something I expect to make money off of and I am going to be picky about who gets a puppy. I expect at my age, one litter and done might be the way of it. I don't need money, we are doing well in life. A little tiny part of me does want to raise this one litter of puppies until they are six months old and good companion pets inside and out. I just want the puppies to have the best possible start and people to love them, treasure them and take good care of them. I think basic training and the person not just thinking puppies are so cute when they buy them might help.


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## AGK (Jul 6, 2017)

I 2nd what echo said. 

Game and blue should never be used in the same sentence together. Lol

The odds of a truly game dog being that color is pretty slim to none these days. You most likely have a staff or a bully or a mix of them. I'd have to see a pedigree but I'm around many dogman every day and for the last 22 years and only have personally seen 1 real APBT that was that color and it was a 7 minute cur. 

You'd have a better shot at getting struck by lighting twice in the same day then having a game dog that was blue.. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just extremely unlikely. 

Plus, you don't see gameness from the top, you see it from the bottom..


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

To be perfectly honest, as much as I love pits, I did look into raising a breed of dog that was bred purely as a companion animal. It became obvious that the breeders of that breed in my region were raising large numbers of puppies to sell young with spay/neuter contracts to fund their dog show addiction. If their breeding program helped any dogs, they didn't sell those and all the dogs they were helping lived in their own backyard. They were more interested in having a monopoly in the show ring and on the puppy prices. I found one reputable breeder and her contract stated you were not to fix any dog before the age of two years in case it was a good dog. She needed some funding and what amounted to foster homes (yes you owned part of the dog and she made the matches for you). She was doing amazing things for the breed but she lived too far away for me to be of service to her. That was an entirely different situation than too many pit bulls dumped off at shelters cause that puppy didn't pan out or wasn't born potty trained or chewed something else up. I feel in some breeds the spay/neuter contract is carried too far for all the wrong reasons. I can get a pit from my local shelter for $25 and go get it fixed because I don't intend to go to shows. But I saw this dog and this is the dog I wanted and she came with some strings attached.


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

The game dog was black and female, and she was a runt. I know what game is. This poor pup had it. Beast was black with white on him and short like his mamma. I wasn't looking for it, hunting it or trying to find it. The momma couldn't nurse them and he was five weeks old and hungry. (My husband is gonna hurt the next person who hands me a hungry dog to feed) I don't like short dogs, but I did love the little guy. This blue fawn female dog is Beast's father's (who is not game at all you are right about that) granddaughter. She is not a bully at all, she is a pit like her grandpa.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

So you want to breed a blue fawn female 'pit' with a blue what? I'm trying to follow along but my mother's brother's friends cousins first girlfriends pup has me confused. Maybe I'm just cranky or tired but I just can't.


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## AGK (Jul 6, 2017)

I think your confused as to what being game means in reference to these dogs.. No offense, just stating the obvious. Lots of folks confuse gameness with aggression. They simply just don't know any better. I'm curious to see a pedigree.


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

I am not confused about gameness. Beast isn't part of the discussion really. He is in a good home and will not end up in a pit. I do not wish to breed a bunch of game dogs or I would breed her to Beast. Even if I did breed to Beast, most probably wouldn't turn out like Beast in temperament. Most people who want a pit bull and think they want a game dog, don't really. His father has the temperament I am looking for. I understand there are more serious health concerns if you breed dilute to dilute for a few generations which has happened as people try to breed for blue dogs. I'll double check the color of her parents cause I didn't even know I should ask about that. He would accept a litter off of Beast instead and there is no color issue there. I had not wanted to consider it but I will now.


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

Beast is shorter but he has good angulation on his back legs and that is my dog's weak spot. He has a few minor flaws. He is a shorter dog. He is a relaxed dog who is perfect to just chill with most of the time. He is super smart and was easy to train. The girl I have now is more active but eager to please and smart. I'll have to be more careful about placing the puppies. He growled at a kid once according to the kid, but that kid disliked my dog too. He never growled at any kids at my house and my niece visited more than once. He isn't inappropriately aggressive. He'd love to be an only dog because he is an attention hog. His only flaw was he was too perfect of a pit bull. When they made pits, he is everything they wanted temperament wise. The only argument is do you think that's what people should have wanted? What broke my heart with Beast was I don't approve of dog fighting. But I knew in the wrong hands a man could take him to a dog fight and this dog would think it was great and be excited to load up and go to a dog fight every Saturday night until he met his match and didn't come home again. Most dogs, even pits are not like this. He is a very special dog. I raised him right in my living room and was never bad to him. I did nothing to bring this out in him.


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

Ciaramama, I know you just love BYB. I'd like to say you were helpful, but I can't. 
The short black dog would be the better match health-wise for my dog. It is the match the breeder wanted most. A game dog isn't a bad dog or a man-eater, I should make the best match for the puppies. She just looked red when she was little but the blue is really showing now. The black dog is a short pit, probably has some old English in there somewhere. He's not muscle bound even though he has good development. The blue is all pit and a tall dog. Health first, hybrid vigor and all that. I like to wipe my butt with doggy papers. You know how many papered **** dogs could tree a **** when I was girl? All too few. You know how many papers were fishy even back then? A LOT. But I do care about the health of the puppies so the short black dog will be the baby daddy.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

RitaCeleste said:


> Beast is shorter but he has good angulation on his back legs and that is my dog's weak spot. He has a few minor flaws. He is a shorter dog. He is a relaxed dog who is perfect to just chill with most of the time. He is super smart and was easy to train. The girl I have now is more active but eager to please and smart. I'll have to be more careful about placing the puppies. He growled at a kid once according to the kid, but that kid disliked my dog too. He never growled at any kids at my house and my niece visited more than once. He isn't inappropriately aggressive. He'd love to be an only dog because he is an attention hog. His only flaw was he was too perfect of a pit bull. When they made pits, he is everything they wanted temperament wise. The only argument is do you think that's what people should have wanted? What broke my heart with Beast was I don't approve of dog fighting. *But I knew in the wrong hands a man could take him to a dog fight and this dog would think it was great and be excited to load up and go to a dog fight every Saturday night until he met his match and didn't come home again. Most dogs, even pits are not like this. *He is a very special dog. I raised him right in my living room and was never bad to him. I did nothing to bring this out in him.


This IS the EXACT foundation of a true APBT and the very nature of their history and genetics. To be honest, I'm not real sure that any of your dogs are true APBT, the only TRUE pit bull, based on your descriptions. You may know all about raising dogs based on your experiences but I think it's relatively clear you really don't know, or advocate for, the APBT. You shouldn't HAVE to do anything to bring out the true nature of a dog. Being DA and ready/willing to fight to the death to make your human proud is THE historical heritage of the APBT, whether you like it or not. I am NOT saying I condone dog fighting; however, you cannot ignore the history and part of what makes these dogs so special: their intelligence, willingness to do anything for their human, loyalty, and drive.

You can mock my beliefs about your BYB practices, but I doubt you will find many here, if any, that support what you're doing. True dog people, especially those of us who advocate for and steward for the bully breeds, find the practices of breeding non-papered, non-tested dogs for no other reason than to make more unneeded house pets deplorable and only adding to an already bad situation, especially for our beloved dogs who are over-bred and tossed into shelters, abandoned, and euthanized every day. I am NOT saying that all dogs should have papers, and yes there are A LOT of fishy papers out there but if you know what you're doing then you know how to spot these and only go through reputable breeders. I am only saying that the only dogs that should be bred are health tested, papered, and tested having titled in any number of true dog sports or confirmation. Confirmation means nothing in a mutt. There is no standard to which you are basing their confirmation on!

And what is 'inappropriate aggression'? ANY aggression towards humans for any reason is inappropriate, aside from abuse of course. I believe that to be true of any dog, regardless of breed.

I have no desire to get into an argument with someone who thinks they know these dogs and won't listen to anyone's opinion but their own.



AGK said:


> I think your confused as to what being game means in reference to these dogs.. No offense, just stating the obvious. Lots of folks confuse gameness with aggression. They simply just don't know any better. I'm curious to see a pedigree.


She doesn't have any. Didn't you read her hate and contempt for "show dogs". "clubs", "dog games" aka dog sports and all things true dog related and how she would wipe her behind with "doggy papers"?

I don't want to sound rude or cause offense but I have strong opinions about these dogs and I/We are their voice.

~Jess


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

I don't care about your support. I spoke with the breeder and Beast it is. I miss Beast terribly but he didn't get along with my old dog. The girl I have now does get along well with my old dog and is a great dog too. He says the puppies will have good homes and not be fought. So I am good. I trust him.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

You clearly don't care about dogs either like you say you do. You claim a lot of things in your posts, throw around a lot of dog words - some used properly/some not - and act like you are the be all/end all of dog wizards. I'm not real sure why you even came here since you claim to know everything about everything and state a lot of myths and inaccuracies as gospel. The only reason I am even engaging in this one-sided conversation is so people who come here looking to actually learn about the APBT and other bulldogs don't eat what you're serving because much of it is either unintelligible or inaccurate when it comes to bulldogs. 

So backyard breed your sub-par dogs, send them to sub-par homes with your sub-par 'breeder' friends. You won't get any support from me or anyone else around these parts. There's a reason why no one is responding to your posts aside from me. No one else has the patience or tolerance to attempt to talk bulldogs and breeding with someone who thinks they know everything yet obviously knows very little. 

For the record, I DON'T know everything about the APBT or any other bulldog for that matter but I do know dogs. I came here a year ago to learn and discuss dogs with other dog people who are like-minded and consider some here family now. They taught me a lot and I am open to learning from anyone new that comes along that has new or different knowledge than my own. We have some great discussions and if you would step down off your high horse for one minute, you might learn something and make some friends.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

just from the title, i knew where this was headed.
if you have to ask... then you probably shouldn't be making the decision.


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## Indie (Sep 29, 2010)

RitaCeleste said:


> Okay, a friend is a hobby byb. My old mutt was lonely and acting like she was on her last leg and he gave me a puppy. I raised the puppy and my old dog has plenty of life left in her, she likes puppies and dog companionship. But the mom of the puppy was a bit too game, there was fight over a hambone and my old dog needed some tending at the vets, my fence was old, he'd been wanting that dog back, the mom got hit by a car, the father of the puppy was grieving himself ill so I gave him the puppy back. People would see that 6 month old puppy and pull their wallets out but he wouldn't sell him. He bought the granddaughter of the father from a litter. I really wanted her, she was/is something special herself. I sent 40lbs of great puppy food home with him just for her. But a cousin lost a dog and the kids were crying and he gave them puppy. The cousin's job had him off working and the man's wife didn't feed the puppy right between 4 and 6 months. We made a deal. I said I'd do my best for the dog and agreed to let him line breed her grandfather one time for some pups next year. His old dog is really something special and a large part of why this puppy has such great conformation so don't lecture me about the line-breeding please. The man's uncle raises some fine dogs with great bloodlines and conformation and her grandfather is one of his. I grew up on a farm and my dad raised ****-hounds and some curs for catch dogs, pigs and bears. I could teach him a few things and make him better with dogs and he knows it. The feeding of dogs is a hot topic with me since the puppy was skinny although that was not his doing. I have been focused on health, conformation, and temperament. I have not researched color at all with regard to pitbulls. His dog is a blue and my dog is blue fawn. It is my understanding that breeding these two dogs can cause skin problems in the pups and future breeding should not be done between two dilutes. Is there enough of a health risk to the pups to go back on my word and not produce the litter I promised him? They are both healthy dogs with great conformation and in the world of byb that's almost a miracle.


To sum up: I have a byb dog. Another BYB has a dog closely related to my dog. They are both dilutes. Should I breed them?

NO. And not because of their colors alone! You can't "line breed" when you aren't actually breeding for the betterment of the breed. Line breeding brings out both the faults and strengths in your line. Close inbreeding doubly so. If you breed this litter, you're going to get the worst of the line, and maybe the best of the line. You yourself said they're BYB's... so I think you know what we're going to say. You cannot take a BYB dog and produce anything better than a BYB dog, especially when taking it to another BYB dog with the same traits and genes. You say the dogs are healthy... how do you know? Have they been tested?

:hammer:


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## Indie (Sep 29, 2010)

RitaCeleste said:


> To be perfectly honest, as much as I love pits, I did look into raising a breed of dog that was bred purely as a companion animal. It became obvious that the breeders of that breed in my region were raising large numbers of puppies to sell young with spay/neuter contracts to fund their dog show addiction. If their breeding program helped any dogs, they didn't sell those and all the dogs they were helping lived in their own backyard. They were more interested in having a monopoly in the show ring and on the puppy prices. I found one reputable breeder and her contract stated you were not to fix any dog before the age of two years in case it was a good dog. She needed some funding and what amounted to foster homes (yes you owned part of the dog and she made the matches for you). She was doing amazing things for the breed but she lived too far away for me to be of service to her. That was an entirely different situation than too many pit bulls dumped off at shelters cause that puppy didn't pan out or wasn't born potty trained or chewed something else up. I feel in some breeds the spay/neuter contract is carried too far for all the wrong reasons. I can get a pit from my local shelter for $25 and go get it fixed because I don't intend to go to shows. But I saw this dog and this is the dog I wanted and she came with some strings attached.


I read this bit after my last post. FIRST OF ALL.. DOG SHOWS ARE NOT AN ADDICTION. They are a WAY OF LIFE.

You described the program of a good breeder; KEEP what you want to use in your program. SELL what you don't want to use as neutered pets. IF YOU AREN'T SURE and want to let the dog mature, you can put it in a co-own situation and see if it is what you are looking for in a breeding dog.

If you want to make more pets... you're just a BYB... and if you're not questioning your motives in this breeding just a little bit right now, then you probably shouldn't keep posting about it in this forum.

Signed,
A DOG SHOW ADDICT


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

:goodpost:


Indie said:


> I read this bit after my last post. FIRST OF ALL.. DOG SHOWS ARE NOT AN ADDICTION. They are a WAY OF LIFE.
> 
> You described the program of a good breeder; KEEP what you want to use in your program. SELL what you don't want to use as neutered pets. IF YOU AREN'T SURE and want to let the dog mature, you can put it in a co-own situation and see if it is what you are looking for in a breeding dog.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: :clapcombined with a snarky giggle - I couldn't help myself)


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

Look, down here we raise papered dogs and unpapered dogs. Its not the papers, but the dog. The puppies I have agreed to raise are for a family's foundation stock. My girl is valuable to the family and yet I have her. It would have been a big deal to loose a dog like Beast for him and his family, returning him to the breeding program was the honorable thing to do. Let's both hope the descendants of my puppies and the descendants of your puppies never meet in a pit. If I didn't think twice about applying my talents to these dogs, I wouldn't be human. You talk and you talk. I am going to raise some puppies and give that family's pride a boost. These puppies will be family treasures for them. We don't make money on dogs, we just hope we can break even at the end of the day. I have found a place I can be of use and do a good turn for a friend and some fine dogs. I am going to get back to my life now.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

You mock pedigrees and papers, but can't speak to the lines you run. Even the old school dogmen who didn't register their dogs still kept pedigrees on them. Because they needed to know the dogs in the past to understand what they'll have in the future litters. Pedigree isn't just paper, it tells the story of the line of dogs being produced.
You'd be hard pressed to find a game line with blue dogs in it. So good luck with your back yard bred curs.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

Foundation dogs?!?!? You said in one of your original posts that this BYB friend of yours had no idea what he was doing (more or less) and you?re coming to his rescue. NOW you?re saying you?re returning dogs to his breeding program to help build his foundation dogs?!?! Those aren?t foundation dogs and some of the greatesr dogmen of all time are rolling over in their graves right now.


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## AGK (Jul 6, 2017)

Lmfao  

"Hope offspring from my dogs don't end up in the pit against offspring of your dogs". 

That's the funniest $h¡+ I've read all week. 

I don't think anyone is too worried about that happening. BAHAHAHA

This thread is very comical.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

AGK said:


> Lmfao
> 
> "Hope offspring from my dogs don't end up in the pit against offspring of your dogs".
> 
> ...


This thread is funny in the way that some.one asks a question having no intention on listening to the advice given.OG question should I breed these two dogs.
Answer no! Bad breeding practices of diluted dogs is just producing more sub par animals. Every breeding should be to better the breed. In order to do that you must have a goal. With out a goal your just playing crapps with bad dice.


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## jttar (Jan 31, 2013)

Thanks Rudy, from your lips to the deaf ears of RitaCeleste. There are none so blind ......

Joe


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

Yes, these will be back yard bred dogs. These are the dogs and people I choose to work with. They will have good homes. They will be healthy, fine dogs. I have two wonderful pets.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

In the mean time, more good, healthy, fine pets will be euthanized in shelters while you breed your crap. 

You and your standards are really not welcome or wanted here and I know I am not alone when I say please just stop and take your deficient dogs, uneducated attitudes and opinions elsewhere. Most just can?t come right out and say it because of their roles. You can?t possibly have not gotten that hint by now but just in case I?m coming right out and saying it. Go find another forum to spew your poison. It?s bad for our dogs.


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## RitaCeleste (Oct 8, 2017)

My household has a six figure income that does not rely on animals in anyway. We work and feed ourselves and our pets. It is popular to slam pet owners who breed their pets. My grandfather was a doctor. My father was biologist and a hobby breeder. Some of our dogs were Knight Champions. Other dogs would run down a bear for you. Not all dogs will run down a bear, most like to go in the other direction in fact. I am autistic, I won't sit and talk to shamelessly promote myself and my chosen profession, which, by the way, is not running a kennel. No one really gave me more information on my original question than I had already found though quick research. I am aware of how to line to line-breed and why and when. I don't see how this board or being a member of it would be of benefit to me or my animals. And well, I have other things to do. There is nothing here of value to come back for.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

I will never understand why people will come here to tell us they aren't coming here anymore. Do you think this is going to hurt our feelings? It is not. We would prefer you to not return as you spout misinformation and set a poor example for others who are looking to benefit the breed and seek out knowledge and not validation like you. Just go already.

Here, let me help you.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Sorry ya feel that way. Because their are plenty of threads about the color blue.on this forum. But with out knowing the.liniege of your.dog and his. No one can tell you what would be passed. He better would know, if he has through skin defects, that is if he would tell you. 
In my mind takes more then thought of good conf. Like you we make a decent living.6 figures, and in the last year i have spent a great deal of that campaigning my dogs in conformation. Conditioning and proving them in various sporting aspect offered to the breed. Have done so for ten years. Breeding only twice of all those years.


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