# do real APBT's still exist?



## gtnotw (Oct 15, 2009)

Hey y'all, I haven't been on here for a while... But i have a question, its more of an observation that turned into a question. Every time I think about it, I want to go on and ask because so far I think the go pit bull community has done a better job of explaining things to me than local Vets. 
Okay, so since I take my dog Jet a lot of places with me... I am always asked what breed he is, I always say that I'm not sure because I don't have any papers but assume hes a pit mix. I stopped calling him pit bull because as far as I know he could be a mastiff benji mix... I'm so frustrated that the pit bull is so hard to define with all these red noses and blue noses and blue eyes and everything lol. 
Basically i was wondering is there really a real apbt breeder out there? the ones that have the real apbt gameness and athletic ability? Or is the pitbull just a dog that has a big head and has a lot of game with no other definition.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

There are most defiantly still Pure APBTS out their both illegal game dogs and ADBA game standard dogs. As well as UKC style dogs that are still athletic and pure bred. 

Pitbull is used for many breeds and crosses but true American Pit Bull Terriers are still around..


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## 00 S/C Lightning (Apr 7, 2010)

there are breeders here on the forums that are extremely well known apbt breeders. each breeder i am sure has a preferance as to which line suits their life styles or one they have learned to love the best or the one they believe perform's the best for the game type they use for play. it all depends on what YOU prefer as a owner or activity use


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

There are plenty of bulldogs over seas that are still carrying on the legacy.


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## raiderhater1785 (Jan 19, 2010)

seems like mostly ebd boston terrier crosses today imo. gamedogs exist, the public just isn't educated about the difference.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

I think there are definitely plenty of them. You just have to look past the byb as always.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Well the APBT in it's true form is gone for the most part but like Mcleod15 said they still exist mostly in other countries. Now when I say true APBT I am talking about Game tested dogs still being fought mostly in other countries but it still does happen here.

What we have here in the US are APBT's who are gamebred and closer to the original function of the APBT of the past but being bred for working dogs, show dogs, or as pets without actually being game tested. Now ppl are going to say there are other ways to test game but not in my book but that is debatable.

Then you have Bullies, those are the bigger dogs that are so common right now and what most ppl consider pitbulls. I have smaller dogs around 35lbs and ppl always ask me what breed then do not believe me when I tell them. Ignorance and the bully fad has created this false image of the APBT.

I mostly have gamebred APBT's, then some from show lines, and a few pitterstaffs (APBT amstaff crosses). They each have a little different look and if you want you can look at my website or I can post pictures for you. There are also some other great examples of true APBT's on this site.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 16, 2007)

yeah they are out there but most breeders I know of don't sale to the public and don't even have a website.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> I mostly have gamebred APBT's, then some from show lines, and a few pitterstaffs (APBT amstaff crosses). They each have a little different look and if you want you can look at my website or I can post pictures for you. There are also some other great examples of true APBT's on this site.


I'm curious! Could you post pictures of each?


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## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

i strongly disagree that you have to put a pit in the [] to find out of he has true game.

Dont get me wrong. I dont claim to be a expert on pitbulls. BUT i define game as having the determination to complete a task without regard to to anything else, or harm to ones body.

For example. Look at the blue ticks, and the redticks and all other well bred hunting dogs. They will chase a deer, racoon, bear till they drop dead. They will sit under a a tree where a racoon is tree'd and wont move until the owner has to physically drag him away from the tree. If thats not game, then please tell me otherwise


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

This is my boy Dosia. He is a true APBT in my eyes. I love this boy. We've tracked his lineage back to Plumber's Alligator, a great old bulldog.  He has a few faults like his under bite but he is loving and loyal and has the best temperament I could ever ask for. To me he is perfect.


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## mattytang (Jun 21, 2010)

this is EVIL he was traced backed to rodriguez gator he is a true apbt i would say. i would love to see some pic of other peoples apbt that would be awesome !!!


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## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

kg420 said:


> This is my boy Dosia. He is a true APBT in my eyes. I love this boy. We've tracked his lineage back to Plumber's Alligator, a great old bulldog.  He has a few faults like his under bite but he is loving and loyal and has the best temperament I could ever ask for. To me he is perfect.


Nice looking dog. A lot of true real pit bulls have underbites.

There are tons of real apbts left out there, you just have to look. Although it is hard to find them, with all the big, blue, extra large headed dogs out there. Some real apbt breeders come to mind, just off the top of my head: T.Garner, Mike Morgan, F. Boudreaux, STP boys, St. Benedicts, Pit Island of NY, ect.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

echs332000 said:


> i strongly disagree that you have to put a pit in the [] to find out of he has true game.
> 
> Dont get me wrong. I dont claim to be a expert on pitbulls. BUT i define game as having the determination to complete a task without regard to to anything else, or harm to ones body.
> 
> For example. Look at the blue ticks, and the redticks and all other well bred hunting dogs. They will chase a deer, racoon, bear till they drop dead. They will sit under a a tree where a racoon is tree'd and wont move until the owner has to physically drag him away from the tree. If thats not game, then please tell me otherwise


See you hear this argument all the time but they are chasing prey not fighting another dog. fighting another dog who is matched in size and strength vs chasing a prey item who is running for life to me is totally different. Again it is a debate but to me the only true test of gameness is in the []. I'll give you a great example I have working dogs who have a ton of drive and do not give up and would chase any prey item till it dies or they killed it. But they wold cur out in a real test of wills against another dog who is matched equally. I have had plenty of yard accidents with as many dogs as we have and I will tell you many of the dog who you would think would just not quit based on their working ability were the ones that are really curs when put in that situation. Another dog is total different from prey, prey can fight back but not like another dog.

Here are some of my dogs

Siren Gamebred redboy/jocko 35lbs

















Riot Gambred reboy/bolio as a pup 7 months 25lbs









Typhoon a pitterstaff 40lbs









Crush a show bred APBT


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

kg420 said:


> This is my boy Dosia. He is a true APBT in my eyes. I love this boy. We've tracked his lineage back to Plumber's Alligator, a great old bulldog.  He has a few faults like his under bite but he is loving and loyal and has the best temperament I could ever ask for. To me he is perfect.


Wow He is looking amazing


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Here is a game APBT that just achived his gr ch status

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [311483] :: SDBR'S GR.CH.VIRUS

over this dog

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [239976] :: VOLCHIHA'S SANTIAGO


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## Patch09 (Apr 23, 2009)

Patch, heritage traced back to the Hard Hittin New Britian line, 60lbs apbt


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

The APBT is STILL alive and well here in the USA. There are plenty of true dogs and breeders out there. There always will be, you just have to know where to look. There are several good examples of the real deal here on this site. 

IT is however a shame that this question is valid and needs to be asked, its a shame what has happened to the APBT.


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## ovambo (Jul 15, 2010)

nice dogs all the same but from all the research and reading ive done there are real pitbull breeders across the pond Carragan kennels have some fine looking dogs in all definisions


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> The APBT is STILL alive and well here in the USA. There are plenty of true dogs and breeders out there. There always will be, you just have to know where to look. There are several good examples of the real deal here on this site.
> 
> IT is however a shame that this question is valid and needs to be asked, its a shame what has happened to the APBT.


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Bethb2007 said:


> Nice looking dog. A lot of true real pit bulls have underbites.
> 
> There are tons of real apbts left out there, you just have to look. Although it is hard to find them, with all the big, blue, extra large headed dogs out there. Some real apbt breeders come to mind, just off the top of my head: T.Garner, Mike Morgan, F. Boudreaux, STP boys, St. Benedicts, Pit Island of NY, ect.





davidfitness83 said:


> Wow He is looking amazing


Thanks for the compliments guys. I love this boy to pieces he really is my pride and joy


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Am I understanding this correctly that by achieving gr. ch. status over the other dog, and being gamebred, he fought that dog? Or am I completely wrong? I noticed the weights were listed as kg instead of lbs.


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## boogiebot (Oct 7, 2009)

i agree with performance. having drive to chase smaller animal is really classified as prey drive that hunting style instinct. The word "GAME" gets thrown around too much these days. unless your dog goes into that [] and has the heart to throwdown...everything else is just a pet-bull. my girl looks like a APBT but she would be the first to jump that box to get the F*** out.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Heres my bitchs ped, id say shes a true apbt ;P
heavy buck dog, redboy/partrick 
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [351165] :: G.G.C'S EASTEND GURL


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

As Lisa, and Mcleod pointed out the truest game dogs are over seas. The most dogs used in game stock over seas are Jocko/Redboy dogs bred heavy this way or that way, there are others that stand out over there from G&G, Wildside, and a few others, the dogs live a fast life unless its an avil or an American dog sent over to be proven before retiring in the states.

For me, the real pit bull are the american game dogs. As the real fighting bulldog went into fighting pit forever dubbed pit bull. so the game dog as THEY said is the true bulldog, and the genetics are still there. The game dogs as we know are designed for the [], but those dogs can accel in other facets of the canine world as well as put it down and catch and kill wild game. Game, genes are prey drive and game testing from what I see is testing how deep that PREY drive is, I have only seen true working hog dogs, Alaskan Huskies, and Laikas with a prey drive that can keep up outside the [] but disengage darting in and out; so the prey drive falls short of game, inside the [] its only game dogs which distinguishes the game driven dogs from all other breeds, thus game dogs being only APBTs in the truest form of the bulldog. Some deep game dogs aren't dead game and some dead game dogs aren't deep game, to me a dead game dog is a kill dog. So to me this is test of heart, that says no I will not die today. I have come up with a regiment that all the dogs that ran with my crew has failed,I don't know if I push owners to hard or their dogs, but I just go and expect the dogs to fulfill the stories and legends, say keep up. I run over 5+miles a day with my dogs, do pulling, and balance excercises while hittin up the moutainside. Before we hunt my dogs run 5miles, from Fastlane to Perfection down to STP I have not seen any dogs I would add to my crew until I ran acrossed Peformance Kennels. Listen to Lisa she has the dogs and knowledge, I would take a Jocko/Redboy pup from her or duplicate just like her Jocko crew. Her other dogs are fabulous as well and shes working with lines and doing things with them NO ONE ELSE IS with those lines  I know what to look for and the dogs come from the type of breeders and stock that both Lisa and Mcleod have pointed out. I have a heavy heavy jocko dog light on the redboy, SPIKE, 4 generations down from Holts Jocko, Holts Jocko bellymate to Tants miss jocko, sire to Hooch my foundation stud, through a Norrod/Chavis/Bingo gyp. I also have a Zebo/G&G/Halls dog, and a dog that is tripple bred hooch crossed out with the Zebo stuff. Both my dogs with Jocko blood, are neutered, working dogs, when the time comes in the next year or 2, I will need a female to produce more working dogs, I will look for heavy Jocko game bred dogs or a Norrod game dog to cross with my Zebo dog who is also a seasoned catch dog and bear dog. Does the real pit bull exist? " Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark" Cheyenne Proverb









SPIKE, barks while hes bitting.. LOL all go~ 45lbs









Turkish Blend, he's the JockoX3/Redboy/Norrod X Zebo/G&G/Halls.. No sound just work, catches any critter you want, but if it don't have legs he's not interested, no ropes, or balls.. just things that bite back. 35lbs









Boss Hogg AKA Hoagie, this is nicely bred little dog from Almighty Pits, JB's boneyard. Traded one of my Jocko pups for him. Hoagie is sire to Turk: and the foundation sire to continue giving me a good line of working quality game dogs. Hoagie is a machine, name it he will do it... 30lbs


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Mcleod15 said:


> Here is a game APBT that just achived his gr ch status
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [311483] :: SDBR'S GR.CH.VIRUS
> 
> ...


:goodpost: Like to see these names in the game dog world, so many Jocko/Redboy and Redboy/Jocko dogs that these guys are real gems...


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> Am I understanding this correctly that by achieving gr. ch. status over the other dog, and being gamebred, he fought that dog? Or am I completely wrong? I noticed the weights were listed as kg instead of lbs.


Yeah they just recently fought the match took place over seas in Russia, matching dogs is still legal over there along with several other places From


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## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

honestly if your dog shows the drive to hunt, or excell in any task that he does for you what does it matter if he is GAME or not. Its not like we are fighting our dogs (well some of us are not).


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

echs332000 said:


> honestly if your dog shows the drive to hunt, or excell in any task that he does for you what does it matter if he is GAME or not. Its not like we are fighting our dogs (well some of us are not).


The American Pit Bull Terrier is a game bred animal.. or Should Be.. If you don't like a game bred animal then APBT shouldn't be your choice. The dogs have to do more than hunt, one dog should be able to down a bull look at sgt stubby, who downed a buffalo of all things, a buffalo, that story is in a Stratton book, dog had to be game to do so. So while the asian island and slavic nations will have the best of AMERICAN game bred dogs we will allow our breed to be bred to crap? Bleeding hearts and tender feet, is what is ruining the American game dog and the American nation.


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## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

oh i understand what your saying. But a lot of people brag about their dog being Gamebred and what not, but they dont use the dog for what it was BRED for. 

I applaud keeping the APBT in its orginal form and temperment, but some people are just toooo Serious about whether or not their dog is game bred. If it sits on the couch all day and farts and sleeps it shouldnt really matter how its bred. haha


But like i have said thousands of times....I know nothing really about this breed(compared to some of yall) so dont take my questions as trying to start a fight or anything....im just trying to learn


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

echs332000 said:


> oh i understand what your saying. But a lot of people brag about their dog being Gamebred and what not, but they dont use the dog for what it was BRED for.


Like people are going to come out and say they are dog fighters LOL, you cant make that statement.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

echs332000 said:


> oh i understand what your saying. But a lot of people brag about their dog being Gamebred and what not, but they dont use the dog for what it was BRED for.
> 
> I applaud keeping the APBT in its orginal form and temperment, but some people are just toooo Serious about whether or not their dog is game bred. If it sits on the couch all day and farts and sleeps it shouldnt really matter how its bred. haha
> 
> But like i have said thousands of times....I know nothing really about this breed(compared to some of yall) so dont take my questions as trying to start a fight or anything....im just trying to learn


I should have just said it rather than implying it through retoric.
I was just implying that the APBT is or should be game bred because it is a performance animal, that isn't designed to do nothing all day.. Most people who think they want an APBT, want a non game working bulldog breed there are many.. its all good, "a good teacher has to be a great learner" SL


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Heard a good one from a dogman, after 2gens of non working he classes them amstaffs hahaha
no offence intended to amstaff owners!!


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> The American Pit Bull Terrier is a game bred animal.. or Should Be.. If you don't like a game bred animal then APBT shouldn't be your choice. The dogs have to do more than hunt, one dog should be able to down a bull look at sgt stubby, who downed a buffalo of all things, a buffalo, that story is in a Stratton book, dog had to be game to do so. So while the asian island and slavic nations will have the best of AMERICAN game bred dogs we will allow our breed to be bred to crap? Bleeding hearts and tender feet, is what is ruining the American game dog and the American nation.


I understand where you are coming from but you're making it sound like unless your pit bull is game tested then you really don't have a pit bull. Well, that just eliminated about 95% of this forum. These dogs were bred to fight, agreed, but to say that that is what they were MEANT for, well that's pigeon holing a breed that is more than one-dimensional (see Lisa and the work she does) and is really an owner issue rather than a dog issue. We , as in no one, owns the patent to the APBT. Two dogs fighting in a pit, to prove what and to who, is only one aspect of this breed, but man does like his bragging rights and his bloodlust! It's funny because if our Irish and English brothers had concentrated their efforts on breeding the most exceptional swimmers, we would all be thumbing our noses at the pit bulls that can't stay under water for 5 minutes or swim across the Great Lakes in record times. How many people on this forum are going to toss their pit bull in a pit to fight another dog and risk it's life just so they can say it's a real pit bull? I owned two pit bulls that were of game bloodlines (one more game than the other) because they resembled the standard more than the bullies did, and I always will own a gamebred pit bull for the same reason. They will not be fought to prove that they are a pit bull, I'm not in it for that, their companionship, loyalty, athleticism, willingness to please and, yes, their toughness is enough for me. If this makes me a bleeding heart, then so be it, but you're not going to see me letting a 50lb. dog do my talking for me either. I hope I don't step on too many toes here, that is not my intention, but you can have respect for the APBT's heritage without believing it to be the only defining factor in proving its self worth. I'm trying to point out that we are all involved and love this breed for various reasons and that one definition of its "trueness" does not exist.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> (one more game than the other)


Did you game test them?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

:goodpost:
I do like what you said ,but I also would like to say if only people who really respect the game dog had owned this breed I believe the breed would not be in the bad standing it is today. For all the ha and insecure "pits " would not be around. Just my opinion


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> I understand where you are coming from but you're making it sound like unless your pit bull is game tested then you really don't have a pit bull. Well, that just eliminated about 95% of this forum. These dogs were bred to fight, agreed, but to say that that is what they were MEANT for, well that's pigeon holing a breed that is more than one-dimensional (see Lisa and the work she does) and is really an owner issue rather than a dog issue. We , as in no one, owns the patent to the APBT. Two dogs fighting in a pit, to prove what and to who, is only one aspect of this breed, but man does like his bragging rights and his bloodlust! It's funny because if our Irish and English brothers had concentrated their efforts on breeding the most exceptional swimmers, we would all be thumbing our noses at the pit bulls that can't stay under water for 5 minutes or swim across the Great Lakes in record times. How many people on this forum are going to toss their pit bull in a pit to fight another dog and risk it's life just so they can say it's a real pit bull? I owned two pit bulls that were of game bloodlines (one more game than the other) because they resembled the standard more than the bullies did, and I always will own a gamebred pit bull for the same reason. They will not be fought to prove that they are a pit bull, I'm not in it for that, their companionship, loyalty, athleticism, willingness to please and, yes, their toughness is enough for me. If this makes me a bleeding heart, then so be it, but you're not going to see me letting a 50lb. dog do my talking for me either. I hope I don't step on too many toes here, that is not my intention, but you can have respect for the APBT's heritage without believing it to be the only defining factor in proving its self worth. I'm trying to point out that we are all involved and love this breed for various reasons and that one definition of its "trueness" does not exist.


good point, just backing up that I said these are performance animals, and PK does outstanding work, but I believe her working stock to have or be of gamebred lines. however game bred is not game tested, they are from proven game stock bred in that function for that function, game. I said all APBTs should be game bred; you know? in accordance with stratton and colby?, you said game tested..


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> Did you game test them?


No I was referring to what most would call game bloodlines, I should have stated that more clearly.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> :goodpost:
> I do like what you said ,but I also would like to say if only people who really respect the game dog had owned this breed I believe the breed would not be in the bad standing it is today. For all the ha and insecure "pits " would not be around. Just my opinion


I agree, wholeheartedly, that the APBT has become the breed of choice for all of the undesirables, but that is still a people problem, not a dog problem. Well, it is a dog problem now, but to no fault of the dogs


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> good point, just backing up that I said these are performance animals, and PK does outstanding work, but I believe her working stock to have or be of gamebred lines. however game bred is not game tested, they are from proven game stock bred in that function for that function, game. I said all APBTs should be game bred; you know? in accordance with stratton and colby?, you said game tested..


I agree, and I certainly did not mean to jump your sh*t because I respect you and your love for the breed. You are obviously very loyal to the breed and these dogs need more educated people like yourself to sustain it through the years. I, as you can see, have an opinion on the fighting aspect but I hope we all cool, Firehazard?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> I agree, wholeheartedly, that the APBT has become the breed of choice for all of the undesirables, but that is still a people problem, not a dog problem. Well, it is a dog problem now, but to no fault of the dogs


Very true I would like to have seen the dogs in all their glory. I do think that the apbt of today are great though, so well rounded. I truly look at other breeds and whisper to my boy Dooney" anything they can do we can do better". No other dog can do all the things a APBT can do at the consistent level,( IMO) that they do. And for that I am a proud aPBt owner.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> Very true I would like to have seen the dogs in all their glory. I do think that the apbt of today are great though, so well rounded. I truly look at other breeds and whisper to my boy Dooney" anything they can do we can do better". No other dog can do all the things a APBT can do at the consistent level,( IMO) that they do. And for that I am a proud aPBt owner.


As you should be, for you still own the greatest breed on this planet, but I'm biased Does Dooney ever whisper back " Right on, dad" ? LOL!


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

No he just winks.:thumbsup:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> No he just winks.:thumbsup:


Very efficient Dooney:cheers:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

StFrancis~ its all good, I did think you were jumpin all in my mess kit, thanks for the kudos, Im just an almanac, grew up in a law library in a retired military home; storing and repeating information is like 2nd nature.I love debates and I love these dogs, but I razzle people and get taken out of context, alot.. So I do appologize if I was over defensive, this is a good topic, that needs to be highlited a little more seriously. In general I usually say bulldogs or game dogs when speaking of the APBT because I don't want people hearing me to get it confused.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> I understand where you are coming from but you're making it sound like unless your pit bull is game tested then you really don't have a pit bull. Well, that just eliminated about 95% of this forum. These dogs were bred to fight, agreed, but to say that that is what they were MEANT for, well that's pigeon holing a breed that is more than one-dimensional (see Lisa and the work she does) and is really an owner issue rather than a dog issue. We , as in no one, owns the patent to the APBT. Two dogs fighting in a pit, to prove what and to who, is only one aspect of this breed, but man does like his bragging rights and his bloodlust! It's funny because if our Irish and English brothers had concentrated their efforts on breeding the most exceptional swimmers, we would all be thumbing our noses at the pit bulls that can't stay under water for 5 minutes or swim across the Great Lakes in record times. How many people on this forum are going to toss their pit bull in a pit to fight another dog and risk it's life just so they can say it's a real pit bull? I owned two pit bulls that were of game bloodlines (one more game than the other) because they resembled the standard more than the bullies did, and I always will own a gamebred pit bull for the same reason. They will not be fought to prove that they are a pit bull, I'm not in it for that, their companionship, loyalty, athleticism, willingness to please and, yes, their toughness is enough for me. If this makes me a bleeding heart, then so be it, but you're not going to see me letting a 50lb. dog do my talking for me either. I hope I don't step on too many toes here, that is not my intention, but you can have respect for the APBT's heritage without believing it to be the only defining factor in proving its self worth. I'm trying to point out that we are all involved and love this breed for various reasons and that one definition of its "trueness" does not exist.


:clap::clap::clap:


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

By-the way I love the game dogs. What exactly makes a dog Game though is it the way he is bred or the way he acts. Is a bulldog who has acted as a cure still a game dog/ the reason I ask is because Dooney has a lot of Bordeaux in him and even more jeep. but he also has a bit am-staff in him the game-bred dogs slightly out weighing the Am-staff. So what is he? He acts a little like a bulldog should love people umm but not other dogs so much.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

This is how i see it.

Game - Courageous, dexterous, obstinate, spontaneous; bravery and heroism from a noble and self sacrificing devotion; a contest lasting until a result is obtained 

Gameness - A very hard to obtain, courageous, dexterous, obstinate, spontaneous grade of game. Once obtained it is very hard to hold onto. Once lost it is impossible to obtain again, except through sheer luck occasionally or many years of breeding, conditioning, and culling

Game Test - To test the degree of gameness by consecutively rolling and scratching a dog after tiring, to a fresh dog

IMO no one can label there dog as 'game' i would replace that with highly driven., unless they have same tested it.

"when an animal's will to dominate supersedes it's desire to survive, it's game"


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> This is how i see it.
> 
> Game - Courageous, dexterous, obstinate, spontaneous; bravery and heroism from a noble and self sacrificing devotion; a contest lasting until a result is obtained
> 
> ...


So, in your opinion, if two dogs are matched, can both winner and loser(whatever that means) be considered game? Also, if said winner, who is then considered game, loses in the next match, then did he lose his gameness? It seems to me that these poor dogs could never live up to the standards set for them under these guidelines.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> So, in your opinion, if two dogs are matched, can both winner and loser(whatever that means) be considered game? Also, if said winner, who is then considered game, loses in the next match, then did he lose his gameness? It seems to me that these poor dogs could never live up to the standards set for them under these guidelines.


From what i understand, someone quote me if i am wrong, if a dog in the pit fought with passion to win, and did not cur out then it was concidered a 1xgl
1 time game loser.

If it curs then i guess it lost its game. Didnt want to jump the [ ]


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> From what i understand, someone quote me if i am wrong, if a dog in the pit fought with passion to win, and did not cur out then it was concidered a 1xgl
> 1 time game loser.
> 
> If it curs then i guess it lost its game.


According to the Stratton books I've read, a losing dog can most definitely be considered game, and alot were subsequently used for breedong purposes. I was just curious to know what your thoughts were, honestly? Good discussion


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Like Limeys Neils, he was left int he pit to die as he lost, SAD, for someone who has worked there keep with this dog, bled and sweat with it for months and then just left it in there to die!! anyway he was a loser, but produced MR BULLDOG & LIMEY KENNELS FATSO (1XW) , CH EAST END KENNELS NEILSON ROM ect.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I have a real problem with leaving a dog in the pit to die! There is no way that that owner cared very much for this dog's life, and that's ashame. It is my understanding that it should never get to that point in the first place and that most deaths related to the pit were of the shock variety, once out of the pit. That is a travesty and clearly shows what that owner was in it for. That owner only wishes HE had a quarter of the gameness that his own dog possessed. And that dog paid the ultimate price for what, so he could die alone in the pit, nice sport.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

"although she is a one time loser she was kept and valued because of her deep game" Stratton, "_The American Pit Bull Terrier_" MISSAPBT~I like that definition you put up seen it before, covers all spectrums except where GAME originated, hunting and wrangling large wild game, requires all those qualities. Not all dogs are game enough to whip a 3000lb bull or snaggle a bear or bust a band of coyotes, especially after miles on end of running or a hard days work out in field, and some curs have won matches Art is a good reminder several others. Many of you now think you have dogs of muster I guarantee you a group of 5 coyotes would eat your dog. YOUR AMSTAFF question Corvino, Benedicts, of course Colby, and several other game line dogs are disguised as AMSTAFFS(a conformation colby designed using PRIMO as the default) using names like Tacoma, Rolling Rock, etc.. SO techniqally in the opinion of some there are game bred dogs in the AMSTAFF ring, as ALL SHOW DOGS used to come from the BEST of WORKING STOCK, then we started BREEDING SHOW DOGS out of our FUNCTION dogs, big diference in looking the part, and playing it. There are AMSTAFF game dogs being premoted, just have to find them, usually boasting they predate the APBT and are the former Yankee Terrier, whatever... Howard Heinzel said it best "when we start breeding for looks might as well call them AmSTaffs, thats surely what they'll be." Meaning APBTs are working and function dogs valued for their mentality and ablities, and should be shown as such,and bred as such; not bred to be pretty or bred because this dog is beautifully marked.NO.. The APBT should be bred by the dog and the pedigree, good dogs do pop up here and there and MAKE perfect chances for the tight game lines to wash with unused blood. Colby said the little bulldogs "could out do any dog at anything it was bred to do and then whip em' when its done.." Thats my argument, keeping the TRUE APBT alive means keeping the GAME dog alive.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

my qeustion is, is a gamebred dog that is cur still a game dog? and what of the cross bred dog that shows gamieness?


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> "although she is a one time loser she was kept and valued because of her deep game" Stratton, "_The American Pit Bull Terrier_" MISSAPBT~I like that definition you put up seen it before, covers all spectrums except where GAME originated, hunting and wrangling large wild game, requires all those qualities. Not all dogs are game enough to whip a 3000lb bull or snaggle a bear or bust a band of coyotes, especially after miles on end of running or a hard days work out in field, and some curs have won matches Art is a good reminder several others. Many of you now think you have dogs of muster I guarantee you a group of 5 coyotes would eat your dog. YOUR AMSTAFF question Corvino, Benedicts, of course Colby, and several other game line dogs are disguised as AMSTAFFS(a conformation colby designed using PRIMO as the default) using names like Tacoma, Rolling Rock, etc.. SO techniqally in the opinion of some there are game bred dogs in the AMSTAFF ring, as ALL SHOW DOGS used to come from the BEST of WORKING STOCK, then we started BREEDING SHOW DOGS out of our FUNCTION dogs, big diference in looking the part, and playing it. There are AMSTAFF game dogs being premoted, just have to find them, usually boasting they predate the APBT and are the former Yankee Terrier, whatever... Howard Heinzel said it best "when we start breeding for looks might as well call them AmSTaffs, thats surely what they'll be." Meaning APBTs are working and function dogs valued for their mentality and ablities, and should be shown as such,and bred as such; not bred to be pretty or bred because this dog is beautifully marked.NO.. The APBT should be bred by the dog and the pedigree, good dogs do pop up here and there and MAKE perfect chances for the tight game lines to wash with unused blood. Colby said the little bulldogs "could out do any dog at anything it was bred to do and then whip em' when its done.." Thats my argument, keeping the TRUE APBT alive means keeping the GAME dog alive.


I have zero problems with people showing their beloved pups, but you are correct Firehazard, there is no reason to breed for something better looking when the game bred APBT is purdy enough The problem is that humans always want to "one-up" perfection and that's when things start to deviate in another direction. Shoot, one could make the argument that the catch weight and weight pullers have started creating a new APBT. It's in our nature


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

The problem is that humans always want to "one-up" perfection and that's when things start to deviate in another direction. :clap::clap::clap: sums it up huh.?.. nuff said


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I did want to clarify that I'm not trying "slam" the weight pullers and those who hunt with their dogs, and before anyone reminds me that I am after a 60-65lb dog myself, I'll save you the trouble I openly admit that I would like a pup that falls on the higher end of the standard scale, but we ain't gettin' out of that range!!


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Rudy4747 said:


> my qeustion is, is a gamebred dog that is cur still a game dog? and what of the cross bred dog that shows gamieness?


Thats the thing, gameBRED and gamedog is diffrent, game dogs may produce a cur but it is still gamebred. A gamebred dog doesnt mean its game until it was proven 

If a crossbred dog shows a high drive it would have had to be tested to label it game, from what i am aware when it was legal you could take any dog into the [ ] alsong as it made weight no matter what the breed.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Thats the thing, gameBRED and gamedog is diffrent, game dogs may produce a cur but it is still gamebred. A gamebred dog doesnt mean its game until it was proven
> 
> If a crossbred dog shows a high drive it would have had to be tested to label it game, from what i am aware when it was legal you could take any dog into the [ ] alsong as it made weight no matter what the breed.


Thanks I understand. I read a lot about those days and understand that much but did not know if a pitstaf mix or other bred dogs were aloud. Although know that i think of it depending on when and where the two were probably closer related than now.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Heres Spike during our run yesterday. It was 88deg, we went 5 miles up to 5600ft and then back these are taken with my cellphone; after 8miles and 2miles from the truck.
























Spike is triple bred Hooch(Jockox3/Redboy/OFRN). The damsel I used was Sinai's Kiara a Lightner gyp dual registered ADBA/AKC, I took a small dog with StevesCHBullshit,CHFredT, LongsSTomper,WildersGermII on top and the same dam to Kiara on bottom to the inbred daughter of Hooch then took Hooch back to it.. out come a fantastic game BRED litter; I kept two and the rest I placed in approved country environments. Here is a real bulldog or pitbull IMO that puts his work in and could place at any of those shows ADBA, UKC, or AKC I had him neutered as I retired my line to be straight hunting dogs, bear hunting videos to come~


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

To the Op, True American Pit bull Terriers Bred to to old standards will always survive underground in this country no matter how against the law it is or will become! Bulldogs is a way of life to a lot of people, many can't just give up all they've known there entire time hear on earth cause the powers that be says not to act or be a certain way! Illegal or not, America will always have the creme da~la creme when it comes to Bulldogs!


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

:goodpost:

I dont think the 'working' breed will ever die


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