# adba paper



## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

a few days ago i bought a pitbull puppy! shes around 6 months old. she came with a ADBA certifcate. i looked on the ADBA website and im guessing you cant pull up pedigrees on there? so i was looking around the site and a example of the same certificate came up that i have and it says that i have to fill out the back and send it in, in order to get a 4 gen pedigree and a transfer of owner. does anyone know of another place i can look to see the bloodline? or pedigree? i know what it is casue the breeder told me but im just curious. the certificate doesnt say the bloodline (either does the exmaple one on the website) and i know its real and everything. im just curious.


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## razors_edge (Jun 2, 2009)

if u know the dam and sires name u can look up their pedigree


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

razors_edge said:


> if u know the dam and sires name u can look up their pedigree


the certificate does say them. do you know where to look? or do i just type it in to google.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Pedigrees Online.

You can get a 7 gen from the ADBA for $45 I believe. Defiently worth it to have.


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Pedigrees Online.
> 
> You can get a 7 gen from the ADBA for $45 I believe. Defiently worth it to have.


im just not sure how many gens it goes back


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## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

ADBA papers dont include the bloodline. If you have a subscription to some pedigree webpages, they may or may not have the pedigree. (Not every dog that is registered has a pedigree online, its up to the owner of that dog to post a pedigree if they wish.) Or if you dont have a subscription you could post the sire and dam's names and someone with a membership to a pedigree page could look it up for you (or try), you just might have to be patient to get results.


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## razors_edge (Jun 2, 2009)

the best thing to do is to pay and get the pedigree, thats ur best bet


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> ADBA papers dont include the bloodline. If you have a subscription to some pedigree webpages, they may or may not have the pedigree. (Not every dog that is registered has a pedigree online, its up to the owner of that dog to post a pedigree if they wish.) Or if you dont have a subscription you could post the sire and dam's names and someone with a membership to a pedigree page could look it up for you (or try), you just might have to be patient to get results.


On the puppy certificates it does show both parents and their bloodline. On a full pedigree it does show all dogs names as well as their bloodlines.


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> ADBA papers dont include the bloodline. If you have a subscription to some pedigree webpages, they may or may not have the pedigree. (Not every dog that is registered has a pedigree online, its up to the owner of that dog to post a pedigree if they wish.) Or if you dont have a subscription you could post the sire and dam's names and someone with a membership to a pedigree page could look it up for you (or try), you just might have to be patient to get results.


yea i just found out that you have to suscribe to the pedigree site. i might just order the pedigree from ADBA. in order to look up the pedigree, if its online, what info is needed? just the dam and sires name? or the number thats under there names on the certificate too?


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> On the puppy certificates it does show both parents and their bloodline. On a full pedigree it does show all dogs names as well as their bloodlines.


on the certificate i have and the one on the website, both dont have the bloodline on it.


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## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> On the puppy certificates it does show both parents and their bloodline. On a full pedigree it does show all dogs names as well as their bloodlines.


What I meant, was that their isnt a place that is specifically meant for the bloodline. I guess I should of been more specific. Yes the certificate shows the dam and sire's name, but mine doesnt have any "pedigree" on it, I did get a seperate 7 gen ped though. :hammer:


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> What I meant, was that their isnt a place that is specifically meant for the bloodline. I guess I should of been more specific. Yes the certificate shows the dam and sire's name, but mine doesnt have any "pedigree" on it, I did get a seperate 7 gen ped though. :hammer:


it says the dam and sires names but it doesnt say like "jeep" for example or anything like that


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## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah, it wont say it. The best thing to do is to just get the 7 gen. like RCK said.


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> Yeah, it wont say it. The best thing to do is to just get the 7 gen. like RCK said.


yea i guess ill do that thanks


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

kstr0h said:


> it says the dam and sires names but it doesnt say like "jeep" for example or anything like that


There isnt a bloodline named "Jeep". Jeep was actually just a dog, but was a great one. Alot of people have used him in there breedings. Same thing with Chinaman, Eli, Mayday, & alot of others you'll hear people talk about.

The bloodline is considered the name thats before the dogs name. (Usually the breeders last name)

Example...our dog "Spurgeons Lil' Katphish" is a dog from the "Spurgeon" bloodline and her name is "Lil' Katphish". Her parents are "Spurgeons Sonny Daze" & "Spurgeons Blue Bella".

Hope that helps!


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## razors_edge (Jun 2, 2009)

it seems these days everyone wants to have their own bloodline


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> There isnt a bloodline named "Jeep". Jeep was actually just a dog, but was a great one. Alot of people have used him in there breedings.
> 
> The bloodline is considered the name thats before the dogs name. (Usually the breeders last name)
> 
> ...


i did not know that, thanks!

i think i might just stick with the 4 gen pedigree, its only 15 bucks


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

kstr0h said:


> i did not know that, thanks!
> 
> i think i might just stick with the 4 gen pedigree, its only 15 bucks


4 gen will tell you alot.


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> 4 gen will tell you alot.


are you being sarcastic? haha


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## razors_edge (Jun 2, 2009)

i dont think he is because it will tell u alot


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

i forgot to say that the person i bought the dog off of was saying that the mothers jeep/redboy jocko and the father was jeep/redboy/rascal. i could be wrong but thats what i remeber him saying.


he did say something about seeing the pedigree online so mabye its there. what information would i need to give in order to find the pedigree?


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

I got a subscription to peds online and I can try to look up your dogs parents for you, whats the names?


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

pimpidypimp said:


> I got a subscription to peds online and I can try to look up your dogs parents for you, whats the names?


Cody junior-sire
co-co-dam
idk if it matters but on the certifcate its all in caps
is that all the infor you need? or do you need the owners names and stuff


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

kstr0h said:


> are you being sarcastic? haha


Not at all. The 4 gen should tell you everything you need to know to research the lines back as far as you want to. The parents of your pup may not be in the online pedigrees database, but the grandparents or great grandparents may be and a 4 gen will give you those.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

kstr0h said:


> Cody junior-sire
> co-co-dam
> 
> is that all the infor you need? or do you need the owners names and stuff


He will probably need the entire name of the dogs including bloodline(or breeders last name).


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

ok well the full name on the paper is:

Stevan's "cody junior"

Petrillo's "co-co"


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

kstr0h said:


> ok well the full name on the paper is:
> 
> Stevan's "cody junior"
> 
> Petrillo's "co-co"


I googled both and didnt find anything. I'm sure they wont be in the online pedigree database unless the owners put them in themself.

Get your 4 gen and let us know which dogs are on there. Can probably tell you alot more then.


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## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

I didnt find anything with those names but I may with the grand parents


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## pitbullfanatic (Jun 4, 2009)

*Bloodlines and Paperwork*

Ok, everyone is so much about bloodlines. Most claim my bloodline is this or that. Most out of ignorance. There is no such thing as a true bloodline anymore as all bloodlines are made up of others. That may be hard to hear and swallow for all those that have self built up their own pride on such claims. Probably the best you could find as far as a true bloodline is a Colby from their farm directly. Even then these are admitted mixed with other lines.

To understand lineage you definitely want to get the largest pedigree possible even before you begin research. Once you have this research will be a lot easier. The deeper the pedigree goes the greater chances of finding matches. The American Pit Bull Registry does genealogical research *for their member's registered Pits* and provides up to a 7 generation printed pedigree free and free access to their Family Tracking system that offers information you can not get anywhere else. You will have to provide them the information you know to begin the research process but if you have enough for them they can likely find you a wealth of additional relations that no other registry provides.

Good luck on your research.


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

i was hopeing it would be on the pedigree site. ohh well
thanks everyone for taking time to help me out

looks like im just going to get either the 4 or 7 gen predigree when i send the paper in.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

pitbullfanatic said:


> Ok, everyone is so much about bloodlines. Most claim my bloodline is this or that. Most out of ignorance. There is no such thing as a true bloodline anymore as all bloodlines are made up of others. That may be hard to hear and swallow for all those that have self built up their own pride on such claims. Probably the best you could find as far as a true bloodline is a Colby from their farm directly. Even then these are admitted mixed with other lines.


This is somewhat true, but not exactly. After so many generations you obtain certain traits that are dominant of your line. Thats whats called creating a bloodline. I dont think there are any set rules for being considered a bloodline, but typically considered by most after 4-5 generations of exclusive breedings. If your idea was realty, there would be no bloodlines other than the original few that created this breed.

And as far as Colby dogs, a friend of mine went up a few months back and picked up a dog from them. The 7 gen is almost totally Colby with the exception of a few names that were produced from Colby dogs. So yes, still pure Colby.



> To understand lineage you definitely want to get the largest pedigree possible even before you begin research. Once you have this research will be a lot easier.


You dont have to have the largest pedigree possible. Once you have 3-4 generations you can usually find several of those dogs in the online pedigrees database and follow it back to the dogs of the 1800's.

Yes, a 7 gen would be easier but not necessary. You can learn ALOT from just a 4 gen.


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## Jenna23 (Jun 1, 2009)

:hammer: This may seem like a dumb question, but I'm really trying to understand _everything_ as accurately as possible, and quite possibly I don't know the answer to this b/c my dog is from a BYB (lol but then again at the same time I understand). But why is everyone so concerned with with bloodline? And what makes one BL better i guess from another? Just preference as to the type of dog a person is looking for?


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## jeep lex (Jan 29, 2009)

Jenna23 said:


> :hammer: This may seem like a dumb question, but I'm really trying to understand _everything_ as accurately as possible, and quite possibly I don't know the answer to this b/c my dog is from a BYB (lol but then again at the same time I understand). But why is everyone so concerned with with bloodline? And what makes one BL better i guess from another? Just preference as to the type of dog a person is looking for?


bloodlines are important because the best way to know about your dog is to know the dogs that it came from with tight bloodlines you can determine allot about your dog. say you want a lean game dog you would look at jeep,redboy, chinaman etc.. or if you want a big bully you would look at gotti, r/e bloodlines aside from directly looking at your dogs parents bloodlines are good indicators of they way your dog will turn out although every dog is different and you may get a curve ball here and there


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## eliezer (Nov 13, 2008)

here is the father of your pup 
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [145628] :: CH CODY JR


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

eliezer said:


> here is the father of your pup
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [145628] :: CH CODY JR


thanks for finding it!

now i just need to figure it out haha.


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## eliezer (Nov 13, 2008)

the sire is a redboy/jocko/jeep dog
basically what that means is that most of the dogs in the pedigree are bred heavily by tramps redboy, crenshaw's jeep, chavis' jocko. if you look into the 4th generation of each dog you should see these names multiple times in each one. 
if the dam is bred just like the sire you have a very nice gamedog which means no dog parks, walking off leash and be prepared to have to tire the dog for at least 2 hours a day to drain their energy. gamedogs are great dogs but you will need to do ALOT more research they come with great responsibility. good luck


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

eliezer said:


> the sire is a redboy/jocko/jeep dog
> basically what that means is that most of the dogs in the pedigree are bred heavily by tramps redboy, crenshaw's jeep, chavis' jocko. if you look into the 4th generation of each dog you should see these names multiple times in each one.
> if the dam is bred just like the sire you have a very nice gamedog which means no dog parks, walking off leash and be prepared to have to tire the dog for at least 2 hours a day to drain their energy. gamedogs are great dogs but you will need to do ALOT more research they come with great responsibility. good luck


thanks alot for your help!
i got one more question, how do we know that this "cody junior" is the same as the one on my certifcate? couldnt there be more then one?


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## eliezer (Nov 13, 2008)

this is probably your dogs dam but its best for you to order the 7 generation pedigree.
trust me you will want it later on so why buy the 4 generation now and end up buying the 7 generation later?
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [163149] :: SHOWTIME'S COCO


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

eliezer said:


> this is probably your dogs dam but its best for you to order the 7 generation pedigree.
> trust me you will want it later on so why buy the 4 generation now and end up buying the 7 generation later?
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [163149] :: SHOWTIME'S COCO


thats true, i guess ill get the 7 gen then.

whats the dams bloodline?


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## eliezer (Nov 13, 2008)

female is heavy redboy/jeep very nice!
only way to really know is once you get the pedigree from the adba but there is only 1 cody junior listed on the online pedigree and it came from a guy name steven so i believe its a very possible match.


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## pitbullfanatic (Jun 4, 2009)

I have highlighted each point as I think we may be closer to agreement than you may think.

I am assuming you are referring to the vagueness of what really is a bloodline.

Here you are saying trait defines a bloodline. Later in relation I am also assuming that bloodlines may also be based on ownership.

When you say exclusive breedings are you speaking of inbreeding, line-breeding, breeding by trait, breeding by name, all listed or some mix of the list?

For something so definitive and so widely used to talk about bloodline it still seems awful elusive. So I went to the 1896 version of the Merriam Webster Dictionary where the word was first listed as an accepted term. It says: a sequence of direct ancestors especially in a pedigree ; also : family, strain. Interestingly enough this is also 2 years before UKC came into being.

Yes. This all seems to back up my initial point that in reality there is no such thing as a "pure" bloodline and that all bloodlines are also mixes of others. When dog's were kept more in a Family before registries existed bloodlines were a much more realistic concept as dogs were much more valued for their traits - they were literally prized in many cases - and kept within close family and friend relations. In essence the demise of "pure" bloodlines began with the advent of the formalization of dog registries, which began the commercialization of open trade in dogs. Not all were fond of the registry concept in the early stages of the industry. This is actually still true in some cases today.

Almost totally Colby. I think this also validates what I was saying.

The closest thing to a pure bloodline would mostly likely come from the Colby breeding establishment, I believe is what I said. These are also admitted mixed in lineage but probably "closest" to pure. The reason for this is the closeness in which the Colby family has held their own dogs. While many including myself would be honored to own such a dog especially if it is not to highly inbred the undeniable truth is the first Pit you friend breeds to outside of Colby's farm will begin to officially dilute the bloodline and thus make it more and more impure.

As far as the 7 generation making it easier this is also essentially what I was saying. The more you have the greater the chances of additional relative matches being found. I think this is also the same conclusion of the subsequent posts.

Thank you for your input its nice to talk with someone who is also fanatical about the breed. I enjoyed the remaining of the posts as well.



Rock Creek Kennels said:


> This is somewhat true, but not exactly. After so many generations you obtain certain traits that are dominant of your line. Thats whats called creating a bloodline. I dont think there are any set rules for being considered a bloodline, but typically considered by most after 4-5 generations of exclusive breedings. If your idea was realty, there would be no bloodlines other than the original few that created this breed.
> 
> And as far as Colby dogs, a friend of mine went up a few months back and picked up a dog from them. The 7 gen is almost totally Colby with the exception of a few names that were produced from Colby dogs. So yes, still pure Colby.
> 
> ...


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## pitbullfanatic (Jun 4, 2009)

I think bloodline is more of a thing to hang pride on for an owner and hang value on by the breeder. To me quality is much more important. I do not want a highly inbred retarded dog just so I can hang my hat on it's bloodline.

In regards to a BYB I am still working on this one. Literally I think most Pit's are bred in a back yard. If not this I think one would get awful close to a puppy mill. YUK. BYB sounds much nicer so I am not sure why it is so negatively viewed upon other than by some extremest animal rights nut job who thinks all pet ownership is tantamount to slavery. And still then it would seem better than Puppy Mill. Figuratively BYB I am assuming has another meaning like something maybe linked to quality or lineage. I think all true breed enthusiasts would have to agree that it is in the best interest to breed to quality. Despite this there will always be some that will breed for financial gain alone and will breed and sell less than high quality stock simply to say it is from a specific bloodline or dog. This is true of all breeds.

Maybe the board here can help on better defining BYB.



Jenna23 said:


> :hammer: This may seem like a dumb question, but I'm really trying to understand _everything_ as accurately as possible, and quite possibly I don't know the answer to this b/c my dog is from a BYB (lol but then again at the same time I understand). But why is everyone so concerned with with bloodline? And what makes one BL better i guess from another? Just preference as to the type of dog a person is looking for?


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

pitbullfanatic said:


> I have highlighted each point as I think we may be closer to agreement than you may think.
> 
> I am assuming you are referring to the vagueness of what really is a bloodline.
> 
> Here you are saying trait defines a bloodline. Later in relation I am also assuming that bloodlines may also be based on ownership.


No, in my opinion I believe that a bloodline has more to do with who bred the dog, not who owns it. I also believe that the specific traits that are typically attached to a bloodline are also part of that bloodline.



> When you say exclusive breedings are you speaking of inbreeding, line-breeding, breeding by trait, breeding by name, all listed or some mix of the list?


I'm talking about any style of breeding used by a breeder for a number of generations to achieve & create the what they want in their line.



> For something so definitive and so widely used to talk about bloodline it still seems awful elusive. So I went to the 1896 version of the Merriam Webster Dictionary where the word was first listed as an accepted term. It says: a sequence of direct ancestors especially in a pedigree ; also : family, strain. Interestingly enough this is also 2 years before UKC came into being.


It doesnt really matter to me what the dictionary from 1896 says. I typically try to listen to men who have worked with this breed longer than i've been alive.



> Yes. This all seems to back up my initial point that in reality there is no such thing as a "pure" bloodline and that all bloodlines are also mixes of others.


Just like all dogs are mixes of other breeds but become purebred after so many generations. 



> When dog's were kept more in a Family before registries existed bloodlines were a much more realistic concept as dogs were much more valued for their traits - they were literally prized in many cases - and kept within close family and friend relations. In essence the demise of "pure" bloodlines began with the advent of the formalization of dog registries, which began the commercialization of open trade in dogs. Not all were fond of the registry concept in the early stages of the industry. This is actually still true in some cases today


Alot of people still value dogs for their traits. Thats why we have different bloodlines.



> Almost totally Colby. I think this also validates what I was saying.


No, it doesnt. If you look back I mentioned that even the dogs on the pedigree that didnt carry the Colby name, were still produced from Colby dogs. 



> The closest thing to a pure bloodline would mostly likely come from the Colby breeding establishment, I believe is what I said. These are also admitted mixed in lineage but probably "closest" to pure. The reason for this is the closeness in which the Colby family has held their own dogs. While many including myself would be honored to own such a dog especially if it is not to highly inbred the undeniable truth is the first Pit you friend breeds to outside of Colby's farm will begin to officially dilute the bloodline and thus make it more and more impure.


Sure, but what if hes breeding to a dog from a different line that has a trait that he values highly? Or if his line is lacking a trait that he feels a pure Colby dog will bring? Thats the way to improve and thats what its all really about anyway.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

pitbullfanatic said:


> I think bloodline is more of a thing to hang pride on for an owner and hang value on by the breeder. To me quality is much more important. I do not want a highly inbred retarded dog just so I can hang my hat on it's bloodline.


A dog doesnt have to be highly inbred to be part of a bloodline. Inbreeding, when done right, (and not overdone) will bring out and amplify valued traits. Thats part of the way you keep and bring out the traits you want.



> BYB I am assuming has another meaning like something maybe linked to quality or lineage.





> there will always be some that will breed for financial gain alone and will breed and sell less than high quality stock simply to say it is from a specific bloodline or dog.


BYB = posts above.

A few personal questions if you dont mind. Do you have dogs? If so what blood? Do you breed them? If so for what purpose?


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## Jenna23 (Jun 1, 2009)

pitbullfanatic said:


> I think bloodline is more of a thing to hang pride on for an owner and hang value on by the breeder. To me quality is much more important. I do not want a highly inbred retarded dog just so I can hang my hat on it's bloodline.
> 
> In regards to a BYB I am still working on this one. Literally I think most Pit's are bred in a back yard. If not this I think one would get awful close to a puppy mill. YUK. BYB sounds much nicer so I am not sure why it is so negatively viewed upon other than by some extremest animal rights nut job who thinks all pet ownership is tantamount to slavery. And still then it would seem better than Puppy Mill. Figuratively BYB I am assuming has another meaning like something maybe linked to quality or lineage. I think all true breed enthusiasts would have to agree that it is in the best interest to breed to quality. Despite this there will always be some that will breed for financial gain alone and will breed and sell less than high quality stock simply to say it is from a specific bloodline or dog. This is true of all breeds.
> 
> Maybe the board here can help on better defining BYB.


I know what BYB is, my dog is back yard bred, with no bl, papers, pedigree. What I was asking was in regards to the importance of a bl.

TY RCK, for all the clarification.


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## kstr0h (May 10, 2009)

byb isnt always a bad thing, like everyone always makes it out to be


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## los44 (Jun 1, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> No, in my opinion I believe that a bloodline has more to do with who bred the dog, not who owns it. I also believe that the specific traits that are typically attached to a bloodline are also part of that bloodline.
> 
> I'm talking about any style of breeding used by a breeder for a number of generations to achieve & create the what they want in their line.
> 
> ...


HELL OF A :goodpost: RCK i think you are after my heart, lol


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## los44 (Jun 1, 2008)

kstr0h said:


> byb isnt always a bad thing, like everyone always makes it out to be


there are the exceptions but they are far and between, for the most part byb's are no good for any breed. just my opinion


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## Jenna23 (Jun 1, 2009)

kstr0h said:


> byb isnt always a bad thing, like everyone always makes it out to be


I love my little byb dog, although I do understand now the importance of bl's and pedigrees.

And I agree with you as well los44, I don't condone it, but at the same time I'm glad I rescued kaiser, faulty temperament or not. I will do things different second go around

I also agree with you RCK is the wo/man (doesn't know lol) extremely knowledgeable


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Good dogs are where you find them. But supporting poor breeding practices is never good for the karma. Or the breed.


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## pitbullfanatic (Jun 4, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> A dog doesnt have to be highly inbred to be part of a bloodline. Inbreeding, when done right, (and not overdone) will bring out and amplify valued traits. Thats part of the way you keep and bring out the traits you want.
> 
> BYB = posts above.
> 
> A few personal questions if you dont mind. Do you have dogs? If so what blood? Do you breed them? If so for what purpose?


Hello Rock Creek

I did respond to this post but do not see it. Still new so maybe it was in another section. If you did not receive it or would like a re-post let me know and I will be happy to.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

pitbullfanatic said:


> Hello Rock Creek
> 
> I did respond to this post but do not see it. Still new so maybe it was in another section. If you did not receive it or would like a re-post let me know and I will be happy to.


Never saw your post concerning this. You may have to repost it.


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## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

Jenna23 said:


> I love my little byb dog, although I do understand now the importance of bl's and pedigrees.
> 
> And I agree with you as well los44, I don't condone it, but at the same time I'm glad I rescued kaiser, faulty temperament or not. I will do things different second go around


You live and you learn! If you got a dog you're happy with, and they are happy with you, thats all that really matters!



> I also agree with you RCK is the man extremely knowledgeable


I corrected it for you! Thanks alot for the compliment. I still learn new things everyday. If it wasnt for my girlfriend and all of our "dog friends" teaching me through the years, I wouldnt know half of what I do today.


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## Jenna23 (Jun 1, 2009)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> You live and you learn! If you got a dog you're happy with, and they are happy with you, thats all that really matters!


Yeah we lub each other lol. He's my little sidekick (my four legged shadow). You're very welcome.

Well said bahamutt99


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## pitbullfanatic (Jun 4, 2009)

*Just my take on bloodlines*



Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Never saw your post concerning this. You may have to repost it.
> 
> Originally Posted by Rock Creek Kennels View Post
> A dog doesnt have to be highly inbred to be part of a bloodline. Inbreeding, when done right, (and not overdone) will bring out and amplify valued traits. Thats part of the way you keep and bring out the traits you want.
> ...


In regards to inbreeding I understand this side of the opinion. I also understand I think its root and reasoning. I respect people's decisions in the breeding process but think science outweighs this theory and shows that inbreeding any closer than the 3rd generation can have detrimental effect on offspring.

If inbreeding alone was eliminated this would create the single greatest positive impact on all pure breeds overall health and its advancement as a pure breed. Almost if not all pure breeds greatest health hurdles are those that are the result of inbreeding. No intent to offend.

Theoretically sometimes there are situations where there may be so few within a population that inbreeding is an absolute essential in order to keep it alive. I do not think this is the case for Pit Bulls.

I understand the science behind genetic advancement and believe that every trait you are looking for can be found in a non-related mate. Does it require a little more work? Absolutely.

I understand many may take this as a oke:. Please do not be offended as although I do not agree with inbreeding I am not offended by those who choose to do it. Personally if I bred I would just not choose to inbreed any sooner than generation 4 where scientifically inbreeding shows it looses its effect. For those who choose to inbreed (line-breed) I hope you honestly follow your theory of genetic improvement and cull all those offspring that have health issues. I could not bring myself to do this so therefore inbreeding creates to much of a personal moral conflict.

How I would personally handle a breeding situation is by reviewing the parents pedigrees if possible. I would take the dog plus the next three generations to equal a total of 15 potential dogs. I would subtract out any matches to determine genetic risk and if I have more than 3 matches (20%) I would not consider it a viable alternative for breeding. This as you may guess also plays havoc somewhat on the whole bloodline thing. I have over 30 years experience in the breed and have never really followed bloodline mostly due to its often conflict with inbreeding. But even more so due to its misuse among proclaimed enthusiasts and lack of understanding by the general Pit Bull community.

To everyone that legitimately follows true bloodline I wish to say I have great respect for what you do and think it will be detrimental to developing an accurate history on the breed as it moves forward in history.

From proclaimed enthusiasts of bloodlines I would appreciate as comprehensive a list as possible on true bloodlines, any known history and any known documentation. I would love to learn more on the issues of bloodlines by those who do know.

Interestingly enough my position does not totally kill the theory of bloodline. If you have a larger pedigree and you are daring enough try my equation on a 6 or 7 generation pedigree see what you get. Although I think this high of a standard is unnecessary for breeding I do think it will highlight true root bloodlines.

A the time I first posted I was new and still learning my way around. I have now read many posts here and agree with much that is said. I ask about BYB also because I see it as a vague term. I also see it as a term that has been perpetuated by many in the so called "humane industry" in order to devalue all breeders regardless of that breeders ethics, quality or breeding style. I think PETA fits very nicely as an example.

I think this vagueness on BYB terminology leads to confusion and this fragments the Pit Bull community unnecessarily. I think for a term that is thrown around so much now in the breeding community I would like to see them come together and create a definitive checklist of what this means. Why must it remain vague? Why must it be hard to quantify? If the breeding community does not step up and own this issue the "humane industry" will and not all are Pit Bull friendly.

In regards to personal questions. No dogs now. Well a Shih Tzu but that is hardly worth counting. I lost my last Pit a year ago and plan to spend a considerable time in Australia in the next couple of years after my children graduate. Australia does not allow Pit Bull imports and to take on a Pit and not not have confidence of where it will be in 5-15 years I personally did not think would be responsible. I am a fanatic about the breed and once in Australia will pick up stock there for my continued fancy.

In regards to breeding I would apply the standard I mentioned above and would actually love to see a healthy root bloodline on the 5+ generation level. Due to the closed population there however this may be impossible and who knows I may have to actually resort to the scenario of inbreeding if the population is actually that small. Some Aussies out there should chime in now. What kind of lines do you have there and what do their peds look like?

As for breeding purpose. If I were to breed all the following would apply:

Love of the breed and the desire to see it continue. And to also see this love manifested in others and watch them become breed enthusiasts as well.

To meet demand of the current market. Breeding without consideration for demand I think is one of the things I would place highest on the BYB checklist.

If I could make some money on it that would be nice too, but not really a make or break. I however favor capitalism and do not look at those who can find profit in what they love as evil.

To genetically improve not just my stock but the entire breed. Genetic research on pets is but in its infancy but will play a major role over time as the research process continues to become both better and more economical.

Well that was not what I wrote but instead of trying to dig it up I thought I would just throw my current thoughts down.


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## shortbedder (May 25, 2009)

Well writen, that being said, please continue to study as there are huge gaps in your understanding of inbreeding. Get as close as you can to some real pitbull breeders when in Australia, I'm sure they have some. Maybe even some Irish Staffs, the princibles will be the same. In doing your field work you may be able to advance the breed.


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## cheybabii815 (Aug 15, 2013)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> ADBA papers dont include the bloodline. If you have a subscription to some pedigree webpages, they may or may not have the pedigree. (Not every dog that is registered has a pedigree online, its up to the owner of that dog to post a pedigree if they wish.) Or if you dont have a subscription you could post the sire and dam's names and someone with a membership to a pedigree page could look it up for you (or try), you just might have to be patient to get results.


Hi my dog has Adba paper does that mean he's already registered so If I breed him I can register the pips. Sorry this is first time owning a bully with papers. On the back the breeder signed it. Please tell what to do so when I breed him with another papered bully ill know what I Ned to do. And how much it cost please email me.


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## BuckskinBeauty (Aug 14, 2013)

Well first of all.... ADBA dogs are not generally "bullies" You may want to do some more homework before you decide to breed dogs.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Second. This thread is OLD! Like 4 years old. I'll get better answers if u start a new thread.

Third. I wouldn't post my email on open forums, good way to get spam. I fixed it for u. 

fourth. Do us all a favor and just don't breed ur dog. Or at least get a real good and deep knowledge of ur dog and why u shouldn't breed him...


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

to think that jeep is not a bloodline, you dont have a clue what your talkin about,

bloodlines can be created at any time, 
jeep offspring produced offspring that produced winners and they produced offspring that produced winners and that blood is still doing well today,

so its held up for over 30yrs now, 
what does it take to be considered a bloodline?????????????

plus, you omly need to get the 4 generation pedigree on your dog, because if yuou think your getting an apbt, and you cant find a dog in the first 4 gen, on the internet.

you dont have an apbt.

you thought i was kiddin??????????
i dont care how old it is, i just like talkin dogs...........................


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