# So what really is "working"?



## SHARON MOYA (Feb 8, 2007)

After discussions in another thread, I decided to start a new thread to ask this question.

Opinions seem to vary. One person says that no one should feed a dog that doesn't "work", but many other people said common dog sports are not working...

So I am trying to figure this out. Are the only APBT's considered "working" ones that still hunt? Because that is the only real human-serving thing they are doing. Shutzhund is just a sport (unless the dog actually works for the police department), weight pull was called a sport, agility was called a joke, and I imagine any other activity would be called that too... With the exception of service/rescue dogs, what other "work" is there?

I am really confused. I saw several thread titled "working dogs" and saw them pulling, but another person said that unless the dog was actually pulling a sled over mountains for you etc. then that wasn't really working either....

So I want to hear what people think a working dog is and what it does... What would a dog have to do for you to consider it a working dog??


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

You are going ti get diffrent answers from every one for sure. I really like a dog that is going ti do all you ask. I recsntley have started hunting more with mt dog i really like hog hunting it allows me to test iurance along with the drive of the dog. But iam a purist and think the only true working apbt are tested in the box. Soo seems to me besides some one that breaks the law only real apbt aee in other countries.So it depends on the owner i guess.to say shortly work to me is anactivity that tests the dog mentality along with his ability.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

It is all going to come down to ones opinion on the difference in work vs sport. IMO the box was a sport. Herding cattle is work. It serves a working purpose. Dog Fighting was a sport that humans did with dogs. 

To me its all sport unless you are actually doing WORK with a dog not just sports for your fun or titles. 

Being as I am not involved in working or sporting dogs, I just own and do whats available and fun my opinion is limited by lack of experience.. Still my opinion none the less.

People get to caught up on what people are or are not doing with their dogs when really as long as they are not adding to the bad issues why does it matter?

Also Agility is certain venues was called a joke not the spots as a whole.

Working a dog and A Working dog are different. Exercise, training, pulling that can all be working a dog.....But that's not a working animal lol.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

SHARON MOYA said:


> After discussions in another thread, I decided to start a new thread to ask this question.
> 
> Opinions seem to vary. One person says that no one should feed a dog that doesn't "work", but many other people said common dog sports are not working...


Many working dog folks either it be for sport or real.. They will starve there dogs the day before to allow for a nice food drive. Some go from only feeding a handful of kibble to none at all. 
A non working dog is a dog that does not have a job... Dog sports are as my a working dog and a real police dog. They just have different jobs. Xade my Presa female .. Love for someone to tell her she is not a true working dog.. She would have NO problem doing it for real as I have tested her on hidden sleeve.



SHARON MOYA said:


> So I am trying to figure this out. Are the only APBT's considered "working" ones that still hunt? Because that is the only real human-serving thing they are doing. Shutzhund is just a sport (unless the dog actually works for the police department), weight pull was called a sport, agility was called a joke, and I imagine any other activity would be called that too... With the exception of service/rescue dogs, what other "work" is there?


Of course there is still folks who hunt with APBTs look at hog hunting.. Again you must remember that a working dog is a dog with a job.. Is there a difference in there jobs of course there is. That would be me saying that bc I am a emergency vet tech that I am only that which most human nurses will say they have a real job and mine is only a joke. But for fact I do the same as they do just on animals and what they don't know is I use to be an EMT but what they do not know they look down one.. Make sense?



SHARON MOYA said:


> AfterI am really confused. I saw several thread titled "working dogs" and saw them pulling, but another person said that unless the dog was actually pulling a sled over mountains for you etc. then that wasn't really working either....[/QUOTE
> Well I would 100% consider a weight pull dog a working dog bc of Mastiff history pulling out canons for war was a job!!
> 
> 
> ...


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## SHARON MOYA (Feb 8, 2007)

geisthexe said:


> Many working dog folks either it be for sport or real.. They will starve there dogs the day before to allow for a nice food drive. Some go from only feeding a handful of kibble to none at all.
> A non working dog is a dog that does not have a job... Dog sports are as my a working dog and a real police dog. They just have different jobs. Xade my Presa female .. Love for someone to tell her she is not a true working dog.. She would have NO problem doing it for real as I have tested her on hidden sleeve.
> 
> Of course there is still folks who hunt with APBTs look at hog hunting.. Again you must remember that a working dog is a dog with a job.. Is there a difference in there jobs of course there is. That would be me saying that bc I am a emergency vet tech that I am only that which most human nurses will say they have a real job and mine is only a joke. But for fact I do the same as they do just on animals and what they don't know is I use to be an EMT but what they do not know they look down one.. Make sense?
> ...


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## SHARON MOYA (Feb 8, 2007)

American_Pit13 said:


> It is all going to come down to ones opinion on the difference in work vs sport. IMO the box was a sport. Herding cattle is work. It serves a working purpose. Dog Fighting was a sport that humans did with dogs.
> 
> To me its all sport unless you are actually doing WORK with a dog not just sports for your fun or titles.
> 
> ...


I 100% wholeheartedly agree!!!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

SHARON MOYA said:


> Basically, no one should have a pet or sport animal in their opinion.....


That's just their opinion and nothing more. Some people choose not to keep dogs that will not top out in the show ring, some choose not to keep dogs without drive or workability. What ever your purpose it is your opinion whats worth feeding. I personally don't like dead head dogs with no brain and will usually home them if I end up with one.

Many people who have sport or working dogs are this way over pets, because most pet owner let their animals go to waste. I have no problem with people having pets, but on the other hand yeah it does annoy me to see active breeds become fat, lazy, untrained, yard and living room decor.

Some people are much more serious about it than others


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I agree with Holly. Ur dog servers whatever purpose u deem it fit for. Odin is a far cry from a working dog, but he's my companion and he does a great job at it. He comforts me, snuggles me, tells me to get off the computer and do something, and of course alerts me when people or cats are aproaching lol. I want to get him into more activities but its all time and money related. I feed what I deem is a dog with a purpose.


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## SHARON MOYA (Feb 8, 2007)

American_Pit13 said:


> That's just their opinion and nothing more. Some people choose not to keep dogs that will not top out in the show ring, some choose not to keep dogs without drive or workability. What ever your purpose it is your opinion whats worth feeding. I personally don't like dead head dogs with no brain and will usually home them if I end up with one.
> 
> Many people who have sport or working dogs are this way over pets, because most pet owner let their animals go to waste. I have no problem with people having pets, but on the other hand yeah it does annoy me to see active breeds become fat, lazy, untrained, yard and living room decor.
> 
> Some people are much more serious about it than others





Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> I agree with Holly. Ur dog servers whatever purpose u deem it fit for. Odin is a far cry from a working dog, but he's my companion and he does a great job at it. He comforts me, snuggles me, tells me to get off the computer and do something, and of course alerts me when people or cats are aproaching lol. I want to get him into more activities but its all time and money related. I feed what I deem is a dog with a purpose.


Just a funny note, research has proven that pet owners have lower blood pressure, stress levels, and live longer. So really, pets could be called service dogs.... LOL!!

Don't everybody freak out over that, I am just making a funny....

On a real note though, I was going to post a photo of my boy doing weight pull, but didn't want to hear about how crappy his breed is or how irrelevant his effort was. Not when he loves doing it so much....


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Post it anyways! I for one would like to see it! Even if I think that APBT and AST are different breeds I don't think one is crappy. I love all bully breeds! 

U know who can be a lil harsh, but he means well


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

So i thought about it. I think work is any type of activity that causes your dog to exurt him self. It is the best work for the breed that people will never agree upon. I think so push your dog to the limit and be pleased when he does what a bulldog will do and give you his all.
Here you go My working dog conditioning. I might compete him in weight pull he looks like he might make the cut.


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

Hog hunting is work. Cattle work is work, draft for a purpose other than competion is work. Protection is work, service dogs are workers along with K9s used by police and military. Not an all inclusive list but I'm sure you get what my opinion is. 

Shutzhound, flyball, dock diving agility, maybe showing but not really, are sports.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

catchrcall said:


> Hog hunting is work. Cattle work is work, draft for a purpose other than competion is work. Protection is work, service dogs are workers along with K9s used by police and military. Not an all inclusive list but I'm sure you get what my opinion is.
> 
> Shutzhound, flyball, dock diving agility, maybe showing but not really, are sports.


They maybe sports but it is still work. 
I am thinking you have never been around a real dog that can do sport and work for real. My presa is working to go into SchH, Mondio & PSA.. I guarantee if you came to my house you would NOT get thru the door w/o meeting her first. She is a serious dog period .. True working dog!

Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

i think anything that the dog is doin only because you ask it to is work.. that dog is exerting itself for you and to me thats work.. not that my dogs dont enjoy wp but they only do so much on their own.. the rest is done for me.. this is a very very tricky question.. lol.. lots of different answers 

Rudy4747
Taht is kind of the way I see it any thing you ask the dog to do that puts strain on him is work. I think what differs is the way it pertains to the breed. I work my dogs every which way I can. Anything to keep em busy. I think the thing is some consider different types of work a measure of the dog being worthy of their program. Think I already said tis though lol.


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

geisthexe said:


> They maybe sports but it is still work.
> I am thinking you have never been around a real dog that can do sport and work for real. My presa is working to go into SchH, Mondio & PSA.. I guarantee if you came to my house you would NOT get thru the door w/o meeting her first. She is a serious dog period .. True working dog!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


I've got a kennel full of "real" dogs, and not one of them ever played a game or won a ribbon.

Shutzhund is a sport, in my opinion. Your dog protecting it's property is work. It doesn't get a score or a prize for stopping an intruder into your home.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

catchrcall said:


> I've got a kennel full of "real" dogs, and not one of them ever played a game or won a ribbon.
> 
> Shutzhund is a sport, in my opinion. Your dog protecting it's property is work. It doesn't get a score or a prize for stopping an intruder into your home.


Could any of them? 
Does that make them any less a working dog if they could?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

First Sharon I think you misunderstood what I was saying and then twisted my words to make this thread.

When a venue like AKC or UKC makes something so easy that the owners can easily earn a title to just add a title to a dog then yes I think it is a JOKE!

AKC and UKC Agility are so easy in the beginning level that it is a JOKE to call a dog with a novice title a working dog. In AKC you can have all the time in the world and have a few mess ups and still qualify. Basically you can have a dog not trained well and get a title to just say you have a title. Try doing that at a USDAA trial where you have 12 weave poles, tight times, and must run clean. A novice title from a reputable venue is WORTH something.

Same thing with Weight Pull in the UKC. I know people who greased the rails on a decline and the cart would almost roll by itself and this was at sanctioned shows! Of course the dogs pulled 5,000 lbs! It practically rolled down the track itself. Now the new rules say that without beating any competition a dog just needs to pull 10 times it's body weight to earn a UWP? Really?? that's like 400lbs to my 40lb APBT.... My Boston Terrier can almost pull 300lbs without trying too hard! So with that said is that worthy to say that dog who pulled just 10 times his bodyweight and earned a UWP a true working dog? NO it's a JOKE!!

Now a well trained WP dog is a great thing to see and my point in the other thread is those who are serious about WP go to other venues like IWPA, APA, ADBA they do not compete in UKC WP. Now of course UKC WP is good for noobies but we were talking working dogs or sports dogs. I think UKC and AKC have it's place for those that like to play and have fun. Great! Do play with your dog!! No problem in that whatsoever! You want to compete with the big dogs and be a serious competitor? Great then pick a serious venue! 

Back to my point, It's one thing to train a dog to the beginning level of a sport like agility or rally or WP. Those who take it to the next level put a lot more work into the dogs and IMO deserve more respect than those who do the bare minimum to try and call their dogs "working" dogs.

I do think a working dog is one who has a job with a real task and have real skills. I have to agree with Deb in that respect.

I don't know if I think Conformation should be considered a sport. Like Rally or Obedience isn't a sport it's a skill but conformation is not even a skill IMO.


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> Could any of them?
> Does that make them any less a working dog if they could?


Hell no they couldn't win a ribbon, not a darn one of them unless one of them has been hiding something from me. I don't suppose it would make them any less a working dog if they did but I don't remember saying that it would either. I never said that a dog could only do one or the other. I said Shutzhund is a sport. There is a winner, a loser, and I assume a score, hence it is a sport. I have never been scored on a hog hunt. My grandfather's dogs were never scored when he moved cattle. My uncle's dogs were never scored when they caught coyotes. That's the difference between work and sport.


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> First Sharon I think you misunderstood what I was saying and then twisted my words to make this thread.
> 
> When a venue like AKC or UKC makes something so easy that the owners can easily earn a title to just add a title to a dog then yes I think it is a JOKE!
> 
> ...


lisa is very much right when it comes to UKC weightpull.. its a joke.. a few of my dogs have thier UWPCH but i can asure you they were recieved before the rules changed.. venues like UKC are only looking for money.. there is no competition and people pay for what their dogs recieve.. when people see titles on dogs they should know that dogs ha worked its ass off for that name.. not that its owner had money and bought it.. my dogs will NEVER be at another UKC show


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

circlemkennels said:


> lisa is very much right when it comes to UKC weightpull.. its a joke.. a few of my dogs have thier UWPCH but i can asure you they were recieved before the rules changed.. venues like UKC are only looking for money.. there is no competition and people pay for what their dogs recieve.. when people see titles on dogs they should know that dogs ha worked its ass off for that name.. not that its owner had money and bought it.. my dogs will NEVER be at another UKC show


:goodpost: That's what I'm trying to say! I'm not calling all UKC dogs a joke but rather the title UWP is now a JOKE and before it wasn't that serious either but after the rule change I know a lot of people like you who will never show UKC. I may put a UWP on my dogs only because I would like some Super dog titles since they have all the requirements but WP. And guess what my dogs are a JOKE in WP because I don't train for it but I can take them out and get a UWP easily since 10 times their body weight is very easy to get.

on another note, a dog who has a job is not always a working dog, a dog who just does rally I would not consider that a working dog even if it did have a job.....


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

SHARON MOYA said:


> Though the first part was misunderstood. The person wasn't saying not to feed a dog food. They said that no one should have (or feed) an animal unless it has a job to do for them. Basically, no one should have a pet or sport animal in their opinion.....


I don't know if it was KM or me that said this but no personally I won't waste food on a dog who could do nothing but run around a show ring and look "pretty". But that's my opinion on dogs since I have a performance kennel. Don't confuse that with saying NO one should own a pet.... That's just an opinion take it or leave it. I think pets have their place and I have a few myself along with a few rescues. But even my rescues have a job to some point. After having a few pets early in my performance dog career I decided never to waste kennel space or food on a non performance dog again. Again a personal decision as I have 17 or more mouths to feed.



SHARON MOYA said:


> On a real note though, I was going to post a photo of my boy doing weight pull, but didn't want to hear about how crappy his breed is or how irrelevant his effort was. Not when he loves doing it so much....


No one here will criticise you for posting your dog's photos or that's he's an AST. That's what you chose to do with your dog then more power to you. We were talking working dogs and the difference between AST and APBT working vs show. Not you personally having inferior dogs I don't know your dogs and I've never seen pictures to see if they are even correct dogs because I personally don't care what type of dog you choose to have. I was being general in my statements as you were talking about "working" dogs. You chose to take it personal. I don't think most AST and most APBT people are going to agree so it's best to agree to disagree and move on.

We have lots of people on here who share pictures and we are all supportive. We have pet people, working people, shoot people who don't even own pits and they all share pictures with tons of support. For some reason you are really mixing up what this site is really about.

To further clarify
You said this and I quote


> To answer your question, I dual register my pups because the UKC is much more "puppy friendly" and a great learning experience. And I like weight pull too... Amstaffs are not just "pretty faces". A lot of Amstaff people I know weight pull their dogs.
> .


A lot of AST people like to pull. Ok that's a general statement and I said



> Oh and UKC WP is a Joke and most of those dogs wouldn't be able to compete in real WP like the ADBA, APA, NKC, or IWPA


Do you see where I said most? it was in general I was speaking then you took it personally like I was calling your dog crap. Before you try to imply that I was talking shit about your dogs make sure I really was. I was being general in my statements and you took it personally. I know AST's who are great pullers, I saw one last weekend at working pit bull terrier nationals. He was a great dog! There were also some piterstaffs pulling who took him MWP but that was at the APA pull we had. I also know some great AST who have done Sch or ring sports. However those dogs are the exception rather than the rule.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

SHARON MOYA said:


> On a real note though, I was going to post a photo of my boy doing weight pull, but didn't want to hear about how crappy his breed is or how irrelevant his effort was. Not when he loves doing it so much....


I think you misunderstand our group here. You stepped into a subject that is debated from opinion to opinion, but we don't go into peoples picture threads and dis their animals.

If their breeding sub par dogs in the pics yeah you'll get some debate. Some fat chain hanging off the dogs neck yeah....

However just normal good things, not one will come after you lol. We are a lot more relaxed than your seeing...


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

performanceknls said:


> First Sharon I think you misunderstood what I was saying and then twisted my words to make this thread.
> 
> When a venue like AKC or UKC makes something so easy that the owners can easily earn a title to just add a title to a dog then yes I think it is a JOKE!
> 
> ...


Well said about AKC / UKC stuff. I have to agree fully 
So well said 

Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Yes you are correct, i did say that i believe breeders should only breed towards the breed of choices designed purpose, handlers and owners should only feed what they have use for. Reality is no one likes to hear this however it cuts out virtually all of todays problems from over population, useless attacks, train wrecks in mentality and physical, genetic disasters, illnesses, etc. The most outstanding dogs in both health and mind i have laid hands on have been bred towards a specific need and used for that specific need. One can argue all day that times have changed, the need for a dog has changed etc.. Sure, i do agree however this is my own view of an ideal world and of course, realistically there is no turning back from this as technology continues to advance and made easier for the human race.

I already explained to you what i consider work and it really is the only definition of work, it doesn't always have to be physically and mentally demanding however in my opinion the only true test of what you feed, the purity and the soundness of a dog is to work them in both mind and body... It is the most natural, again, according to my views based on not only history but my own experience over the years i have spent handling animals.

Show folk and pet folk tend to not understand this, those that do respectfully disagree however they do not know what they do not experience. However, everyone is entitled to their own views.. At least in this country any how. I can't count how many times i have upset someone in speaking what i know to be truth or what i feel to be proven through the ideals of history, the foundation of which makes Bulldoggin' such a privilege to be a part of. But for some, it sticks and it opens their minds to at least the will to search through history and explore new thoughts and processes, even then, i won't change my mind based on upsetting.

The core audience of animal lovers now in days is weak, God forbid you have an animal you not only love and care for but use to the fullest of their abilities. They scream animal cruelty or just plain don't understand where the people such as myself come from.

At any rate, in my honest opinion anything UKC, AKC, ADBA, etc sporting events are NOT working.. Sure it can be fun, to earn titles and show what your dog can achieve through titles however anytime you have a winner and a loser.. With VERY few exceptions, is not work. By this i also include the ability to earn titles, CH, GR CH, what have you..

Now as to the [], YES it was a sport and NO means what so ever can you compare ANYTHING done through registries on the same level.. REMOTELY.. It was/is combat, the most physical and demanding of such activities. Just because it ain't work doesn't mean it doesn't take one HELL of an animal to do well.

ANY dog with a strong structure and trainable can do many of the activities people can do through sporting events, lure, WP, agility, fly ball, dock diving, etc.. While yes some breeds and animals have a curve up on competition and can do quite well while others are quite limited, it is the first point that makes the difference. NOT any dog can go up against a Pit Dog and do well, in fact, its an immediate death sentence which is in part why Dogmen never would put up an animal that did not want to be there. After all, gambling and betting was widely popular in those days for sporting events, more so than today.. Why place a dog in the box that was not worth the bet? Pointless. In terms of legal working abilities, not specifically directed to the Bulldog alone.. Not ANY dog can take on Boar, Deer, Bear, Mountain Lion, Coyote, Wolves, etc.. Not every dog can stop a man by protecting its handler or guarding a territory specifically trained and designed to guard at all cost, not every dog can pull a sled in well below 0 temperatures for mile after mile only sleeping a few hours per 24 hour period.. Not every dog can consistently herd live stock day in day out, flawlessly.. The list can go on however THIS is the most basic and fundamental difference between what is sport, what is work.. The select few sports such as matching is the only grey areas as the sport is THAT demanding on every aspect of the animal and far and few can handle it...

This is all about as simple as i possibly can get, take it for what it is.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

If it's fun, then it isn't working...at least that's what my boss preaches LOL.


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but I agree with KMdogs post.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Yeah totally opinions there isn't a REAL answer just like many things in regards to these pups.. Shoot for me my boy works when we go for a hike and he comes home for his kibbles lol. I could care less what people feel if a true working dog vs pet as ling as they take care of their dogs and do something with them. I also love pictures and no one would ever say anything about your AmStaff there are some people on here who have them and I am sure would love to see! There are. Lot of us who like a ton of different breeds. And some like snakes and lizards. I will say that confuses me. I don't like them lol.


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## SHARON MOYA (Feb 8, 2007)

performanceknls said:


> I don't know if it was KM or me that said this but no personally I won't waste food on a dog who could do nothing but run around a show ring and look "pretty". But that's my opinion on dogs since I have a performance kennel. Don't confuse that with saying NO one should own a pet.... That's just an opinion take it or leave it. I think pets have their place and I have a few myself along with a few rescues. But even my rescues have a job to some point. After having a few pets early in my performance dog career I decided never to waste kennel space or food on a non performance dog again. Again a personal decision as I have 17 or more mouths to feed.
> 
> No one here will criticise you for posting your dog's photos or that's he's an AST. That's what you chose to do with your dog then more power to you. We were talking working dogs and the difference between AST and APBT working vs show. Not you personally having inferior dogs I don't know your dogs and I've never seen pictures to see if they are even correct dogs because I personally don't care what type of dog you choose to have. I was being general in my statements as you were talking about "working" dogs. You chose to take it personal. I don't think most AST and most APBT people are going to agree so it's best to agree to disagree and move on.
> 
> ...


I never implied that anyone was talking about my dogs in particular, or took anything personally. I never stated in my post that my dogs had been referenced. I only stated what had been said in general about ALL dogs, or a particular venue or sport....

My post was designed to find out the opinions of many people on what constituted "work". As a means to better understand where everyone was coming from and if there were varying opinions within this group...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

SHARON MOYA said:


> My post was designed to find out the opinions of many people on what constituted "work". As a means to better understand where everyone was coming from and if there were varying opinions within this group...


Haha thats one thing we all got here, opinions and are not afraid to share 'em. you will see tons and maybe agree with some people on topics and others not so much i am sure lol Pretty much got a good mix of people all over from one spectrum to the other. I like that about it personally. Some others have taken it to feeling attacked at times and can't stand it and leave. To each their own, but screw em! lol


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Yup the variety of opinion, types of dogs, types of activities, and ways of dealing with things are why I support this forum so much. Some are able to come in and hang with the big dogs and throw around opinions without it ruining their lives... Others cry and run away cause we hurt dae feelers. lol.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

Ecko holds up my couch cushions and protects the yard from the evil rabbits who are plotting to steal our souls. These are his jobs. I call that work. Well, for his chubby butt it's work. LOL!

I sit on my butt all day at a computer and sell car insurance. It's work. Gawd trust me, it's work. 
As far as dogs go, if you are challenging them mentally and physically, I personally would consider it work. It's a task for him/her to perform. Whether the outcome is merely to please it's master, or to bring down a boar, to the dog, it is a job. IMHO of course.


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## SHARON MOYA (Feb 8, 2007)

performanceknls said:


> First Sharon I think you misunderstood what I was saying and then twisted my words to make this thread.
> IMO.


I did not twist anyone's words to make a thread. I merely referenced different points I had read in several posts, to see if the group as a whole had the same opinions or whether they had their own views on the matter...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

bahahaha right on Ecko I dare anyone to tell me I'm not working when I am getting paid to be on facebook and check gopitbull! If I am good at my job the servers don't break and I sit and do "nothing".


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

catchrcall said:


> Hell no they couldn't win a ribbon, not a darn one of them unless one of them has been hiding something from me. I don't suppose it would make them any less a working dog if they did but I don't remember saying that it would either. I never said that a dog could only do one or the other. I said Shutzhund is a sport. There is a winner, a loser, and I assume a score, hence it is a sport. I have never been scored on a hog hunt. My grandfather's dogs were never scored when he moved cattle. My uncle's dogs were never scored when they caught coyotes. That's the difference between work and sport.


Understood iwas tjust asking. I have yet to produce any dogs but have sme gr eat prospects. It is mu full intention to produce great looking working stock. I truley believe you can have the best of both worlds. As long as you keep priorities of importance.


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> Understood iwas tjust asking. I have yet to produce any dogs but have sme gr eat prospects. It is mu full intention to produce great looking working stock. I truley believe you can have the best of both worlds. As long as you keep priorities of importance.


I don't see why not, but you better be ready to cull some dogs doing it. I don't really care what a dog looks like, other than big structure flaws. I care about performance and hopefully form follows function. But then, I'm not all that into breeding either. My two "go to" dogs for finding hogs are both fixed, and my intact dogs are part of somebody else's programs that I've been fortunate enough to acquire.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

catchrcall said:


> I don't see why not, but you better be ready to cull some dogs doing it. I don't really care what a dog looks like, other than big structure flaws. I care about performance and hopefully form follows function. But then, I'm not all that into breeding either. My two "go to" dogs for finding hogs are both fixed, and my intact dogs are part of somebody else's programs that I've been fortunate enough to acquire.


Very few are able to produce world class working stock on top of "ideal" registry conformation animals, typically give and take.. Most don't bother, what is the point of "perfect conformation" when the reason behind the animal is not the show ring but function.

However you DO get a consistent production following function IF you know what you are doing and not afraid to cull often in the beginning particularly. This is why you have such a consistency in Bulldogs after hundreds of years of breeding not for face but for abilities. Ironically, since 76' in open yards and what you see through dog shows, you are seeing more and more subtle changes adding up eventually to become more significant changes other than your cur status.. Far cry from them hounds of yesteryear in the bulk.. Why would anyone serious about proving their stock worthy of such class would bother with that crap is beyond me.

In the end i don't see a point in it, why the hell would i want "the best of both worlds" when both worlds are a far ends of each other? I'd rather take a solid animal and work that animal while letting the consistency in appearance follow suit than waste my time attempting to title or have a group of folk, respected or not, tell me what i already know. Same reason why i'll never need a dog registered, hand written documentation is all i need, i don't need to send documents, pictures and money to someone just for them to send back an "official" paper telling me what i already knew to begin with.. Waste of time in my book.

To each their own, i guess.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

catchrcall said:


> I've got a kennel full of "real" dogs, and not one of them ever played a game or won a ribbon.
> 
> Shutzhund is a sport, in my opinion. Your dog protecting it's property is work. It doesn't get a score or a prize for stopping an intruder into your home.


I get what you are saying but many working dogs aka police dogs also have titles.. But I guess they aren't real working dogs either. 
You can meet my dog anywhere and she is a great on/off switch. She works all the time. She has been on a hidden sleeve so I know she will bite for real. The last decoy she was on in Colorado was a police decoy / police officer she scared the shit out of him bc she was the only real serious presa at the tournament .. 
Anyway we all have our own opinions but until you are in fact behind the sleeve, suit or hidden sleeve you will never understand!!!!

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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Catchrcall .. I have a question for you.. So tell me and I know this is not about dogs but its pretty much similar.. So do you call a tattooist who goes to conventions enters contest or gets on these new realistic shows like Ink Master NOT real tattooist bc they entered games to get titles & awards? 



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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Catchrcall. I understand that, i have always been one to preach two things any program needs. purpose and proper culling. I feel strongly about it and I won't be one of those people who sends the dog that doesnt make the cut to some one else so they can make it part of their program. I think that is a ridiculous practice, I feel if the dog is not correct for what ever reason then it should not be bred. Maybe a working dog could go to a working home that does not care for conformation, maybe. KM I also agree with you I feel like it is not done often because few people care for both. But I have yet to produce a litter so we shall see.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

geisthexe said:


> I get what you are saying but many working dogs aka police dogs also have titles.. But I guess they aren't real working dogs either.
> You can meet my dog anywhere and she is a great on/off switch. She works all the time. She has been on a hidden sleeve so I know she will bite for real. The last decoy she was on in Colorado was a police decoy / police officer she scared the shit out of him bc she was the only real serious presa at the tournament ..
> Anyway we all have our own opinions but until you are in fact behind the sleeve, suit or hidden sleeve you will never understand!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


i wish i woulda known you came to co, i wouldve attended just to see her in action


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

zohawn said:


> i wish i woulda known you came to co, i wouldve attended just to see her in action


Zohawn
I have some friends there that want me to come work there dogs. I am not sure when I am coming out but I can let you know. Then you can see her work

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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

geisthexe said:


> Catchrcall .. I have a question for you.. So tell me and I know this is not about dogs but its pretty much similar.. So do you call a tattooist who goes to conventions enters contest or gets on these new realistic shows like Ink Master NOT real tattooist bc they entered games to get titles & awards?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


I would say he is a real tattooist.

Would you say that a border collie that only entered sheep dog trials, but never did any actual ranch work, or herded sheep outside the arena is a working dog? I wouldn't.

Would you call a collie that works a ranch, herds for real and accomplishes tasks that benefit his owners as well as competing in sheep dog trials a working dog? Yes, I would.

It's great that your dog will bite a sleeve, hidden or otherwise. I'm not being sarcastic at all when I say that either, which is hard to convey over the internet. But IN MY OPINION it still means that the dog is very good at the sport of shutzhund, and please don't think I'm trying to take anything away from you or your dog and it's accomplishments because I'm not. Not at all. I just don't think you can prove that a dog is a working dog in a competion. Not any more than I can go to a bay competion and win it and say I've got a great hog dog because I wouldn't. I'd have a great pen dog. There's a difference between real life and games, but I do believe it is possible to be good at both.

So, is a dog that only competes in shutzhund a working dog? In my opinion, no.

Is a police or military dog that does all this stuff for real, as well as competing in shutzhund a working dog? In my opinion, yes.


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Very few are able to produce world class working stock on top of "ideal" registry conformation animals, typically give and take.. Most don't bother, what is the point of "perfect conformation" when the reason behind the animal is not the show ring but function.
> 
> However you DO get a consistent production following function IF you know what you are doing and not afraid to cull often in the beginning particularly. This is why you have such a consistency in Bulldogs after hundreds of years of breeding not for face but for abilities. Ironically, since 76' in open yards and what you see through dog shows, you are seeing more and more subtle changes adding up eventually to become more significant changes other than your cur status.. Far cry from them hounds of yesteryear in the bulk.. Why would anyone serious about proving their stock worthy of such class would bother with that crap is beyond me.
> 
> ...


What I should have said was, It might be possible, but you're going to cull a lot of dogs. My feelings on the matter pretty much mirror your post.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

catchrcall said:


> What I should have said was, It might be possible, but you're going to cull a lot of dogs. My feelings on the matter pretty much mirror your post.


Yep, same thoughts and reading some of your posts here, exact same words.. just shows that we share some of the same experience involving the topic. There ain't nothing with a dog biting a sleeve hidden or not, however there is a significant difference between biting a sleeve in controlled environment and the scenario of weapons and other unknowns of which a guard dog or protection animal faces,, of which I can say my own stock gets the job done in both fields of which I use my current hounds for


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

3 pages of good stuff, although I see alot of the same stuff said over again with different retoric or crayons. 

What is a working dog? When Life is WORK.. 

Can you make pulling work? of course.. do most?? nah not really its a game to these bulldogs. 

Someone recently said Turk was as hard as a coffin nail.. 37lbs of can't be broken, he's reliable like the old school Chevys and Fords. I had to agree.. 

Duchesse the mamma to my latest litter got into a moose a bout a month back. Big ol bull put a pummeling on her but she wasn't broken just drunk tired, wobbling home down the ol mtn road. Guy down the road said she took off after a big bull moose who run over the black dog (po my cur pit/rott mix come home 2hrs before dutchie) then that grayish dog quick like a whip grabt the nose of that moose and the dust and pine needles were flying. He ran with shaking violently and eventually setteled in a comotion of dust and blood just across the valley. He knew it was me cause Im always supporting my dogs and when they're lose I ask everyone! When he seen Dutchie dog in the burb with me only a day of rest later he was shocked, told me the bull didn't get up until around noon that day and he watched her wobble off of him and into the trees going down the hill to the road. No dog survives a moose attack around here in N Idaho let alone settles a moose rage in dust of glory. Does he want a pup ?? Nope... He doesn't know what he'd do with the lil demon. I just laughed and said well you'll know when the time comes. (in my mind I meant when some critter dispatches his dog) 

Beast or man... "get some" is a motto of these dogs of mine. You got malicious intent?? Well your days come~ and thats the way they roll. 

Life is work here in the country of the NW you name it we got it. Everything bites and dogs that get loose here become food for something sooner than later. I don't want a dog I have to worry about; I wanna dog thats gonna worry about me (my family and land) and can settle any quarrel or quarry like a .45 with a heart. 

I aint knocking anyone ... Working dogs work to live and live to work; day in and day out...... If its a stock dog, herding dog, K9, even special service dogs, mental work and stress on a dog to help blind and disabled people it ain't just play.. they have to be alert and have steel mind... WORK is WORK .. there are working GAMES where you can earn WORKING TITLES, then there are REAL competitions to earn REAL titles pick your venue and working dog and its there. 


All great answers and greatly done for revolving door type discussions.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

OMG there are Moose in NDakota! I thought they were a Canadian thing lol.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

When you step back and absorb this discussion, it becomes amusing but not necessarily shocking. What was the APBT bred for originally, and solely? Fighting. A fighting breed that was second to none. Capable of performing many tasks nearly as well, it was noted for fighting. Fast forward to the current date and the bragging rights rest upon weight pulling, schutzhund, hog hunting, agility/performance training, confirmation showing, etc. in determining what a "real" or "real working" APBT is. I suppose some of the past dogmen would be turning over in their graves, but then again the times are different. If someone were to appear on this site and discuss matching their bulldog, they would be severely chastised and most likely banned, even though this is the definition of the APBT. Like I said the times have changed, and apparently so has the definition. Once again, this is only a personal observation on a boring day LOL, and not meant to get anyone's back up


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

I gonna get nailed for this one, but I wouldn't consider dog fighting work either. It's a sport, at best, but not work. Difficult, trying, I don't really have words to adequately describe the kind of trial those dogs go through. But I don't consider it work. Like I said, there's a winner, and a loser, and bets are won and lost on the outcome and in my opinon nothing is accomplished but a couple torn up dogs. Maybe some people won money or bragging rights but that's about it.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

catchrcall said:


> I gonna get nailed for this one, but I wouldn't consider dog fighting work either. It's a sport, at best, but not work. Difficult, trying, I don't really have words to adequately describe the kind of trial those dogs go through. But I don't consider it work. Like I said, there's a winner, and a loser, and bets are won and lost on the outcome and in my opinon nothing is accomplished but a couple torn up dogs. Maybe some people won money or bragging rights but that's about it.


Agreed. It is not work, dog fighting was a sport. Nothing was achieved by dog fighting other than creating this breed.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

catchrcall said:


> I gonna get nailed for this one, but I wouldn't consider dog fighting work either. It's a sport, at best, but not work. Difficult, trying, I don't really have words to adequately describe the kind of trial those dogs go through. But I don't consider it work. Like I said, there's a winner, and a loser, and bets are won and lost on the outcome and in my opinon nothing is accomplished but a couple torn up dogs. Maybe some people won money or bragging rights but that's about it.


Well who ever tells you your wrong is gonna be as stupid as the writing they just do.... 
I 100% agree with you.. 
I just got into it with another presa person about the size alone on the breed I love.. 
She stated that Presas need to be large bone, big heads w/ powerful jaws and able to guard .. And that my Presas (she saw at our speciality) are not big and powerful looking 
So I say: well let's see .. Reality here!!!
- big bone ((so they can be to heavy and can not run, take down its enemy (game that is coming after live stock) or can not be a true fighting dog))
- big head w/ powerful jaws ((so hmm again now we are to top heavy to be able to move see prior statement))
- guard ((just made me laugh bc even a Maltese will bark and guard)) 
So in it I said 
- large bone not agile enough
- big head / powerful jaw do not go hand in hand as your strongest powerful biter is a Malinois, but going off a decoy stand point having catched Lrg bone heavy dogs to a lighter bone dogs same breed Presa, Corso, ABD & Pits (in all size) I will tell you I would be more intimidated by the one that can run, agile and still have the intimidating bark ...

The problem of why we were debating (and there was a lot of arguing lol) is she is a gal who shows dogs and reads the standards like a text book, to me being a person who works dogs and still has dogs that meet what the standards say with my breed .. I ended our conversation by saying .. 
1st we need to just agree to disagree bc until you take your dog and really work it and find out what I am saying it will not work in our talk 
2nd I said you are now pushing on you FB that fat slob of a presa that came here from Spain who was 15 lbs over weight, could not run around the ring against Conan and not be out of breath .. Conan can run circles around that dog as he is twice his age. Anytime since that dog is with you for pushing selling its sperm, you want to see if that dog and your male would stop an intruder you let me know .. I know decoys that would come out with me to test.. She said hmm I'm not into that haha my point!! 
I still love her to death but ill take my sporting serious working dog any day bc I know she works!!!

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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

And this is why I consider the APBT a fighting breed, and not a working breed. They can certainly perform a multitude of tasks due to their physical and mental attributes, including what some consider work, but that is only an evolution from the original intent. This is the reason I find it curious (not soley with this thread) that weight pulling, or performance testing, or hog hunting, or showing is held in higher esteem than a dog who is good at chasing cars LOL. None of these activities are what the breed was designed for and thus there is no "better" dog. There seems to be a greater sense of entitlement to this breed by some for what they do with their dog, but actually it's a fairly level playing field IMO. It's as if we've all found different ways to use a gun without actually shooting it, which is fine, but because someone can twirl it faster doesn't make him a better shooter and is pointless to me. Not my best analogy LOL. Sorry to come off so snarky, it's just a pit peeve of mine


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> Agreed. It is not work, dog fighting was a sport. Nothing was achieved by dog fighting other than creating this breed.


wrong, have you ever conditioned a dog for the pit? 8 hrs on a mill isnt work to you? i would like to see you do that lol


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

zohawn said:


> wrong, have you ever conditioned a dog for the pit? 8 hrs on a mill isnt work to you? i would like to see you do that lol


Conditioning for a sport isn't work. Just because a sport requires conditioning doesn't make it work either. IMO of course


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

geisthexe said:


> Well who ever tells you your wrong is gonna be *as stupid as the writing they just do....*
> I 100% agree with you..
> I just got into it with another presa person about the size alone on the breed I love..
> She stated that Presas need to be large bone, big heads w/ powerful jaws and able to guard .. And that my Presas (she saw at our speciality) are not big and powerful looking
> ...


he is wrong, how do you think we got the dogs we have today? not despite of but because of the pit.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

so you all here dont consider lets say a infantry marine to be working when hes in the field?...


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

zohawn said:


> so you all here dont consider lets say a infantry marine to be working when hes in the field?...


How would that compare? That is work.. It has purpose. What purpose other than creating the APBT did do fighting do?


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> Agreed. It is not work, dog fighting was a sport. *Nothing was achieved by dog fighting other than creating this breed.*


cant believe this out of you. fighting brought about breeding worthy or unworthy. you wouldnt have what you have if it werent for matching dogs


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

zohawn said:


> cant believe this out of you. fighting brought about breeding worthy or unworthy. you wouldnt have what you have if it werent for matching dogs


I are very well aware we wouldn't have our breed but that was happen stance. They went to create a fighting dog. A dog for a sport. Out of that an awesome breed was born.. Where in there did fighting serve any purpose other than for old men to gamble and a breed of dog was created?

Husky's did work actually helping in peoples lives, cattle dogs, livestock guardians, human guardians, hell dogs that move wood for their owners, that is work it has purpose.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I don't think it was happen stance since it was a singular goal to create a fighting machine and devote decades and decades to refine that machine. The purpose of the dog was to beat the other dog. Whether money was or wasn't exchanged meant nothing to the dogs.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Saint Francis said:


> I don't think it was happen stance since it was a singular goal to create a fighting machine and devote decades and decades to refine that machine. The purpose of the dog was to beat the other dog. Whether money was or wasn't exchanged meant nothing to the dogs.


As great as it sounds to think that all old time dog men were about the dogs and they were not creating a better dog that would win a fight that was bet on........ Well it's nice to think that way, but I am sure than many of those great men had money at stake.. What is the purpose of just creating a supreme gladiator if you get nothing out of a fight?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> As great as it sounds to think that all old time dog men were about the dogs and they were not creating a better dog that would win a fight that was bet on........ Well it's nice to think that way, but I am sure than many of those great men had money at stake.. What is the purpose of just creating a supreme gladiator if you get nothing out of a fight?


These men had and still have the first and foremost priority in the animal, betting is secondary and yes, many if not not most gambled involving matching of animals.. The soundness, purity and down right perfection of the Pit Bulldog would not have panned out if simply was men placing bets on dog matching that happened to breed these animals.

Dog matching didn't create anything but rather took the genetic foundation and perfected its use in the combat sport to create the superior animal that was thus "created".. Which also happens to be part of the formula and paved way to many other breeds, so to say simply nothing came out of it is not just opinion, it is wrong.

Dog matching was/is a sport, however it is one that cannot be compared to any sporting event or working platform as it is one that stands alone. It had entertaining value and a bi-product of such is genetically astonishing however the simple value is, it made nothing easier, it assisted in no real task nor did it benefit mankind. Watching animals fight is pure entertainment value, however to dig deeper is to see what the bi product is which ironically, is a strong foundation of world class working stock.

An APBT in traditional form and proven, is no less of a worker,, instilled purpose is however..

If that don't make sense, i am running off 3 hours of sleep and just finished working a 16 hour day.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

You have think just like the Presa before it became the Spanish Fighting dog it had a past .. Was a all around farm dog from guarding the flock to guarding the farm. 
We all know Pits have the same but yet most start the history of both breeds at fighting only bc it sounds so much nicer .. Personally me I would and say on my own breed ...
They were farm guard dogs then when Spaniards came they took the breed to fight. 
Fighting dogs is a sport .. Just as MMA is a sport .. Only difference is one is human and other canine 

About marines .. Dude not to compare .. What's your point? 
Marines do a job they have a reason & purpose to be there .. 
Dogs fight in a ring bc we say so .. 


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> These men had and still have the first and foremost priority in the animal, betting is secondary and yes, many if not not most gambled involving matching of animals.. The soundness, purity and down right perfection of the Pit Bulldog would not have panned out if simply was men placing bets on dog matching that happened to breed these animals.
> 
> Dog matching didn't create anything but rather took the genetic foundation and perfected its use in the combat sport to create the superior animal that was thus "created".. Which also happens to be part of the formula and paved way to many other breeds, so to say simply nothing came out of it is not just opinion, it is wrong.
> 
> ...


everything i wanted to say.

without the box what we have would be FAR worse off than it is today, thats a GD fact


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I hate when blanket statements are mad. Assuming every old dog fighter was in it for the dogs is not something that can ever be proven. But based on history of people in general there are always some bad apples that spoil the bunch. Not to mean a majority of old dog men did not care for their dogs and what they were creating, but to say all of them used to is just not realistic.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> I hate when blanket statements are mad. Assuming every old dog fighter was in it for the dogs is not something that can ever be proven. But based on history of people in general there are always some bad apples that spoil the bunch. Not to mean a majority of old dog men did not care for their dogs and what they were creating, but to say all of them used to is just not realistic.


Who said all?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

We didn't create the dog nor did we perfect the dog; the men and women that did, did consider their dogs working dogs for the most part, they were also the first foo foo dog in the USA dressed up like a doll and strolled around. The dogs worked for life they did everything from kill vermin to safe guard land, shop, or home. The oldest men in the game Colby, Lightner, Armitage, all called them bulldogs in general cause thats what they are derrived from working stock bred bulldogs known as the Long legged bulldog. The original bulldog was thrown into the fighting pit and forever dubbed "Pit Bull". The [] derived the fastlane terrier blood out of the heavily inbred Pit Bulldogs. I posted a book on dog lineage on another bulldog forum of high regard a few months back. .. Full text of "The new book of the dog : a comprehensive natural history of British dogs and their foreign relatives, with chapters on law, breeding, kennel management, and veterinary treatment"

its detailed and complex but if you have stratton or colby beside you the puzzle pieces all come together.

Work ... is the foundation of the breed. The [] purified the blood and the dogs in ways simple bulldog work would not have ever done. The ultimate fighting dog is the ultimate survivor as well, bred right and raised right these dogs are 2nd to NONE... The bulldog strain we call American Pit Bull Terrier are more unique than almost any other breed except those bred for centuries on work and survival in their own right and have been added to more canine blood than any other dog under more names to hide (IMO) where the GUSTO comes from so the NEW BREED gets all the credit for its GRIT (snickers) rather than some old dogman saying oh hell thats a cur its a bulldog cross.... Many times the APBT or [] bred bulldog can has and will out do any dog at what it was bred to do 

Provide a function and as long as the dogs are happy and lean function is all that matters, but don't kid yourselves. You don't have a working bulldog unless you have one, you don't have a Pit Bull unless you DO and since proven dogs in the states are rare and under wraps most of us have the bulldogs known as the American Pit Bull Terrier. If you have a proven dog or dogs directly down from proven dogs then its safe to say you have a Pit Bulldog but not many can claim this at all. I call em bulldogs cause thats what they are.......... sports are games ..... work is work.... we all know the difference don't kid yourselves or your dogs be honest. The [] is work for the dog 3hrs of fighting your heart out isn't JUST a sport its a SPORT because we ENJOY to WATCH and OTHERS enjoy TO GAMBLE; the fighter only has two ways out of the [] no matter the species envolved. The dogs [] I seen from foreign pics and videos are like the old [] of the pre 76 era, the dog can jump out at any time its maybe knee high if that. Just like ropes a man leave from, MMA is caged fighting and if the dogs were caged equiventally to MMA fighters LOL THAT WOULD BE CRUEL. MMA fighters are working their heart out to a limit most of us will never know, it may be a sport for some but the one doing the work its work. You have to work hard to be the best at your sport; you have fight to work and work to fight to fight and to live a life of work you work the work and survive the work or not day in day out every day. Fighters spar daily but don't FIGHT daily some do of course and those are the ones leagues above everyone else. Funny the best fighters come from WORKING homes and backgrounds no matter the species.... of course some just like to fight; but for the best of the best: Fighting just refines the work.

The American Pit Bull Terrier is a refined fighting bulldog terrier that simply said is the All purpose all American dog  Ultimate Working dog ....


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> Who said all?


I read "these men" to me that implied the dog fighters of old, not some of the them. I feel the pedestals should be reserved for the ones who have proven to be stand up care for dogs first and not lumping them all in together. Just how I took some of the comments.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ames said:


> I hate when blanket statements are mad. Assuming every old dog fighter was in it for the dogs is not something that can ever be proven. But based on history of people in general there are always some bad apples that spoil the bunch. Not to mean a majority of old dog men did not care for their dogs and what they were creating, but to say all of them used to is just not realistic.


Agreed which is why my statement opened with



American_Pit13 said:


> As great as it sounds to think that *all* old time dog men were about the dogs and they were not creating a better dog that would win a fight that was bet on......


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

zohawn said:


> so you all here dont consider lets say a infantry marine to be working when hes in the field?...


That's just a damn dumbass thing to say. Soldiers and Marines aren't where they are doing what they do because somebody's betting on it.

And no, it's not work, it's war there's a difference.

Unless you're talking about training while they're stateside, then it is more like a nine to five job. Not completely the same but similiar. Field time and everyday job I would consider work, yes.


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> And this is why I consider the APBT a fighting breed, and not a working breed. They can certainly perform a multitude of tasks due to their physical and mental attributes, including what some consider work, but that is only an evolution from the original intent. This is the reason I find it curious (not soley with this thread) that weight pulling, or performance testing, or hog hunting, or showing is held in higher esteem than a dog who is good at chasing cars LOL. None of these activities are what the breed was designed for and thus there is no "better" dog. There seems to be a greater sense of entitlement to this breed by some for what they do with their dog, but actually it's a fairly level playing field IMO. It's as if we've all found different ways to use a gun without actually shooting it, which is fine, but because someone can twirl it faster doesn't make him a better shooter and is pointless to me. Not my best analogy LOL. Sorry to come off so snarky, it's just a pit peeve of mine


When whether or not you get your butt kicked by an wild animal depends on a fifty pound dog controling an animal several times his size you'll understand. When you see the heart, drive, and determination it takes to stick with a big hog in a bad spot you'll understand, or you can read books, and internet and talk about what you don't know.

I accept and understand the past of these dogs, but blindly clinging to something that became a felony shortly before I was born does me no good and neither does it for anybody else. If we did there would be yards full of high drive dogs with nothing to do. I admire what the dogmen of the past did. I got some great catch dogs out of it. I would hope that they approve of what I do with my dogs. According to Colby, he did.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> We didn't create the dog nor did we perfect the dog; the men and women that did, did consider their dogs working dogs for the most part, they were also the first foo foo dog in the USA dressed up like a doll and strolled around. The dogs worked for life they did everything from kill vermin to safe guard land, shop, or home. The oldest men in the game Colby, Lightner, Armitage, all called them bulldogs in general cause thats what they are derrived from working stock bred bulldogs known as the Long legged bulldog. The original bulldog was thrown into the fighting pit and forever dubbed "Pit Bull". The [] derived the fastlane terrier blood out of the heavily inbred Pit Bulldogs. I posted a book on dog lineage on another bulldog forum of high regard a few months back. .. Full text of "The new book of the dog : a comprehensive natural history of British dogs and their foreign relatives, with chapters on law, breeding, kennel management, and veterinary treatment"
> 
> its detailed and complex but if you have stratton or colby beside you the puzzle pieces all come together.
> 
> ...


Good to see you back Stan, I'll have to email you later some FINE news regarding something we spoke about earlier,, otherwise great post


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

catchrcall said:


> I accept and understand the past of these dogs, but blindly clinging to something that became a felony shortly before I was born does me no good and neither does it for anybody else. If we did there would be yards full of high drive dogs with nothing to do. I admire what the dogmen of the past did. I got some great catch dogs out of it. I would hope that they approve of what I do with my dogs. According to Colby, he did.


:goodpost:


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## Kenaii (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm always Hesitant to use the Term "Working Dog".
I think most APBTs would fall under "Performance Dog" or even "Sporting Dog", which is basically a dog that is bred and trained to do a task for the entertainment of Humans.
A Working dog is a dog that does a task to serve Humans, and help them complete jobs.

As for my opinion on this breed's history, I think the Dogmen of the past deserve lots of respect for the fantastic breed they developed. They are more than "Dog Fighting Scum" they are the very reason Bulldogs exist.
But with that said, Pit Contests are not Legal in the US anymore, and I honestly think it is time to move on. I'm not necessarily saying I agree with the Laws, but in my opinion History is called History for a reason. The "Golden Days" Are Gone and there is nothing we can do about it.
Just My opinion.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

catchrcall said:


> When whether or not you get your butt kicked by an wild animal depends on a fifty pound dog controling an animal several times his size you'll understand. *When you see the heart, drive, and determination it takes to stick with a big hog in a bad spot you'll understand, or you can read books, and internet and talk about what you don't know.
> *
> I accept and understand the past of these dogs, but blindly clinging to something that became a felony shortly before I was born does me no good and neither does it for anybody else. If we did there would be yards full of high drive dogs with nothing to do. I admire what the dogmen of the past did. I got some great catch dogs out of it. I would hope that they approve of what I do with my dogs. According to Colby, he did.


exactly, ya know why they have all that "heart, drive and determination"? take a guess


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

catchrcall said:


> *That's just a damn dumbass thing to say. Soldiers and Marines aren't where they are doing what they do because somebody's betting on it.*
> 
> And no, it's not work, it's war there's a difference.
> 
> Unless you're talking about training while they're stateside, then it is more like a nine to five job. Not completely the same but similiar. Field time and everyday job I would consider work, yes.


bs theres plenty with money on the line. you make an investment with money and its called a gamble. how many times have you heard investing in infrastructure? thats exactly what were doing over there.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

catchrcall said:


> When whether or not you get your butt kicked by an wild animal depends on a fifty pound dog controling an animal several times his size you'll understand. When you see the heart, drive, and determination it takes to stick with a big hog in a bad spot you'll understand, or you can read books, and internet and talk about what you don't know.
> 
> I accept and understand the past of these dogs, but blindly clinging to something that became a felony shortly before I was born does me no good and neither does it for anybody else. If we did there would be yards full of high drive dogs with nothing to do. I admire what the dogmen of the past did. I got some great catch dogs out of it. I would hope that they approve of what I do with my dogs. According to Colby, he did.


....and here's that sense of entitlement I'm talking about. You've found a secondary use for the A[Pit]BT and think that the bar has been set by which all "real" bulldogs should be measured. A use/sport that is no less cruel than dog fighting. You are one of thousands who have bulldogs participate in various activities that they excell in...nothing special here. The bar was set a long, long time ago in regards to the A[Pit]BT....you have not created a "new and improved" A[Pit]BT, that is what you have to accept.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Saint Francis said:


> ....and here's that sense of entitlement I'm talking about. You've found a secondary use for the A[Pit]BT and think that the bar has been set by which all "real" bulldogs should be measured. A use/sport that is no less cruel than dog fighting. You are one of thousands who have bulldogs participate in various activities that they excell in...nothing special here. The bar was set a long, long time ago in regards to the A[Pit]BT....you have not created a "new and improved" A[Pit]BT, that is what you have to accept.


There is nothing new about the use of Bulldogs being used as catch dogs, the use has been around prior to matching, during and after,, if you were to take traditional stock and breed towards this your end result is that of old world Bulldogs,, the foundation of which the APBT was born as a modern fighting stock Bulldog...

Save the performance elements to the AST and the like, the APBT is the definiton world wide of what working platforms strive for and seek,,,


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> ....and here's that sense of entitlement I'm talking about. You've found a secondary use for the A[Pit]BT and think that the bar has been set by which all "real" bulldogs should be measured. A use/sport that is no less cruel than dog fighting. You are one of thousands who have bulldogs participate in various activities that they excell in...nothing special here. The bar was set a long, long time ago in regards to the A[Pit]BT....you have not created a "new and improved" A[Pit]BT, that is what you have to accept.


There's no sense of entitlement here, just statement of fact. I have indeed found a secondary use for a pit dog, a legal one that puts most of the traits of the breeds to good use. I choose to do that rather then hold on to a past that is no longer legally possible, spouting BS about something I've never experienced, probably never been close to and likely never will, being the only true use for the breed when the fact is that only a fraction of even the old time dogs saw the inside of a pit. I'd bet good money you have no experience with what you're talking about at all. Maybe you heard it or read it, maybe saw a couple youtube videos and that's about it.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

catchrcall said:


> There's no sense of entitlement here, just statement of fact. I have indeed found a secondary use for a pit dog, a legal one that puts most of the traits of the breeds to good use. I choose to do that rather then hold on to a past that is no longer legally possible, spouting BS about something I've never experienced, probably never been close to and likely never will, being the only true use for the breed when the fact is that only a fraction of even the old time dogs saw the inside of a pit. * I'd bet good money you have no experience with what you're talking about at all. Maybe you heard it or read it, maybe saw a couple youtube videos and that's about it*.


you do the same thing, you dont know shit about genetics. your dogs are "amazing catch dogs" out of necessity. yeah humans have been doing using them before the [], no one would deny that. what the box brings to the dog is a genetic test for the continuation of breeding. by breeding proven game dog to proven game dog generation after generation youll eventually end up with the badest thing on 4 legs.

theres a reason bear bating/fighting was outlawed 100 years before the outlaw of dog fighting. the pit, via human skill and intelligence, created an animal (dog) so powerful it was deemed to inhumane...to the damn bear (who had no such luck as far as genetic testing etc)


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

a


zohawn said:


> you do the same thing, you dont know shit about genetics. your dogs are "amazing catch dogs" out of necessity. yeah humans have been doing using them before the [], no one would deny that. what the box brings to the dog is a genetic test for the continuation of breeding. by breeding proven game dog to proven game dog generation after generation youll eventually end up with the badest thing on 4 legs.
> 
> theres a reason bear bating/fighting was outlawed 100 years before the outlaw of dog fighting. the pit, via human skill and intelligence, created an animal (dog) so powerful it was deemed to inhumane...to the damn bear (who had no such luck as far as genetic testing etc)


Can't respond to everything on my phone but just wanted to point out the great state of South Carolina it is still legal to use your dog for bear baiting and or hunting bear, etc...

Oh and if anyone here does have the experience outside William whom is old enough to get a way with it, I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to acknowledge first hand experience with game dogs, rolling and or matching in any sense of it... Eyes and mouth shut, unless your looking for trouble and dumb enough to deserve


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

zohawn said:


> you do the same thing, you dont know shit about genetics. your dogs are "amazing catch dogs" out of necessity. yeah humans have been doing using them before the [], no one would deny that. what the box brings to the dog is a genetic test for the continuation of breeding. by breeding proven game dog to proven game dog generation after generation youll eventually end up with the badest thing on 4 legs.
> 
> theres a reason bear bating/fighting was outlawed 100 years before the outlaw of dog fighting. the pit, via human skill and intelligence, created an animal (dog) so powerful it was deemed to inhumane...to the damn bear (who had no such luck as far as genetic testing etc)


I guess I don't follow. I don't remember having said much abut genetics either. Yes, it is necessary for me to have catch dogs, not sure why that is in debate either, although I never said they were amazing. They just do their job, which is difficult. Much more difficult than say, chasing cars. I would have guessed that bear baiting was outlawed because the bear was unfairly restrained. Guess you learn something new every day. As far as genetic testing goes, mother nature puts out a tougher test day after day than man has thought of yet.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

i agree 100 That pitting of dog was sport. I would never say it was of any need to have the ultimate fighting breed. I would go as far as saying you guys make it sound like it is no different then that of agility or other dog sports. Could not be any further never has a dog been more selectively breed for an activity ( maybe the Military use of dogs)then that of the APBT. While it was sport to the men pitting the dogs to the dogs it took the mental stability of any working breed if not more. I would say it was more taxing then the catching of a hog on most instances. SO I would have to say sport or not, the dog is working like few hounds in the world have had to. Guess I am trying to say it was sport for the men but the dogs were working like no other to win.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> a
> 
> Can't respond to everything on my phone but just wanted to point out the great state of South Carolina it is still legal to use your dog for bear baiting and or hunting bear, etc...
> 
> Oh and if anyone here does have the experience outside William whom is old enough to get a way with it, *I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to acknowledge first hand experience with game dogs, rolling and or matching in any sense of it*... Eyes and mouth shut, unless your looking for trouble and dumb enough to deserve


right. im just stating what a trying lifestyle will do to a species over time. im not glorifying anything. its just like sled dogs, over time that trying lifestyle and being select bred have created another example of what im talking about


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Kenaii said:


> I'm always Hesitant to use the Term "Working Dog".
> I think most APBTs would fall under "Performance Dog" or even "Sporting Dog", which is basically a dog that is bred and trained to do a task for the entertainment of Humans.
> A Working dog is a dog that does a task to serve Humans, and help them complete jobs.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

zohawn said:


> right. im just stating what a trying lifestyle will do to a species over time. im not glorifying anything. its just like sled dogs, over time that trying lifestyle and being select bred have created another example of what im talking about


Glorify all you wish if you wanted to, just don't think anyone here would post on a public form about how they roll Pit Dogs,, or anything such related, he'll I don't share much of anything and everything I'm involved in is legal in my state.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> There is nothing new about the use of Bulldogs being used as catch dogs, the use has been around prior to matching, during and after,, if you were to take traditional stock and breed towards this your end result is that of old world Bulldogs,, the foundation of which the APBT was born as a modern fighting stock Bulldog...
> 
> Save the performance elements to the AST and the like, the APBT is the definiton world wide of what working platforms strive for and seek,,,


I agree, however I am referring to the A[Pit]BT of which I still believe it would be a secondary use outside of the [] itself. Probably splitting hairs, and a bit off point of the original topic. Like I said it is just a personal gripe I have with those who ride on the high horse is all, nothing more or less. We all have learned in this thread that "work" is defined differently by each person, so placing priority in one use over another seems silly IMO.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

the [] dog that developed into and is the APBT of today came from working stock bulldogs from the past and continue to come from working families. Makes perfect sense the best pit dogs from any country were the nations best working dog.

WORK = still having to do the job HURT or NOT; Day in and Day out... Thats work.

SPORT/PERFORMANCE= conditioned athletes. ... Inwhich athletes are conditioned to various degrees of performance and are coddled when injured. ... that makes it sport.

Hammonds, Hargrove, E. Crenshaw, Colby, Heinzl, Armitage, all had an eye for them working dogs the source of all the great stuff. A dog that is no good for nothing but the [] would be a worthless dog indeed. The [] is the sound and measurement test of bulldog blood at its finest; most of us have to leave that in the past or outside the country. To me this just means there are way less sound game dogs today than ever before and or alot more dogs that wouldn't cut the mustard 35yrs ago but in the same merit; there are dogs better now than ever before in the hands of GREAT dog men and women. The [] aside... The question of work has been answered.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

This is something I wrote that come to mind, its more than a few yrs old but the assessment of the word and actions involved in "work" are still just as valid.


Stan Chevalley
English 99
Johnson

What Is Work ??? 

What role should work play in a well-lived life? Which parts of work contribute to life; which parts detract? How much material comfort is required? How do they rate compared to career goals? How do we attain balance?
Considering it takes work to live in all aspects of life, unless one is fortunate enough to have food fall from the sky like rain, to eat one must work for it. Even something as simple as water obtained to; drink, cook, clean with out gathering, digging or tapping a well? To have breath in one lungs and ability in the mind and body we have to work to keep our own health in balance. Work is an action; it’s a place, it’s a frame of mind, it’s well being, it’s an accomplishment, and it is slavery, it is control, it is as breath is in life, as long as life with no end. It’s important to work to live, not to live to work; at the same time living without work would not be living but merely existing. As most people know whether they admit it or not, apathy leads to atrophy. Just look at the American society, we used to be a hard working society, now we all want the short cut, the easy way, the way of little effort. 

As I am writing this paper I am working, I am working my mind more ways than I can know. I am concentrating on an idea and organizing abstract along with logical thoughts. My mind is also working to tune out the background noise and “work” at the task at hand. The whole word “work” covers so many activities, places, duties, people and even feelings, according to the Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary. The person who doesn’t work in the fashion of employment or in trade of services rendered, who chooses to be a “bum” works at something, whether it is panhandling or staying dry. Walking from one side of town to the other for the homeless shelter or to avoid direct wind & weather, it is all work. Unless ones goals are simply to waste away work is required, and I would say even that, intentional starvation, takes work as the body wants to eat so we have work at fighting hunger. 
In the employment world, as any other society we have to communicate with each other, unless our minds work out how to associate symbols and sounds with meaning we cannot communicate. Our minds work to communicate, it’s automated and so is our learning so work is automated as well. We have to work to learn to be able to stand on our feet without living off of someone else. In our “free market society” we have the freedom to trade with currency, goods and services. The problem with this notation of a free market is that being paid for our labor hours is held over our heads as if we should be in awe for the chance of employment. The way we have evolved our economy into thinking we have to produce and spend goods to turn capital, twenty four hours a day seven days a week, and three hundred-sixty five days a year. What happen to people having Saturdays and Sundays for themselves and their families? So what if the supermarket closes at three p.m. on Saturday and all but gas stations were closed on Sundays. Those gas stations could also run on half days. In this fashion of the word, work is overbearing. It takes up so much of our time, how can we work at our place of employment and make sure kids are home safe, fed, cleaned, and time well spent before they go to bed to repeat the same thing over and over. We have to work at finding balance. Work to live, do not live to work. Work hard and play harder, says it all. 
We as a nation work very hard at our “jobs” or employment rather, for it is our job as citizens to up hold the Bill of Rights; it is our job as parents to raise our children well, and so on. So the problem seems to be how do we find that balance? How do we work hard and play harder, when it costs money to go to our place of employment let alone the cost of hobbies. Sad but true, there is no balance without work in a capitalist society. The only downtime one might get is sleep, and most of us have to work to get sound sleep as well. Effort put out in any fashion is work, to have down time will mean time spent with little effort to do anything. As a hunter and a fisherman, I know for a fact that this is most relaxing time, dedicated to inactivity, however, I have to work at catching fish and bagging a kill. The down time, the time for relaxation, is in mere moments of life. However, people think of those activities as hobbies. As a matter of fact, most wives think their husbands are goofing off or killing time with these activities, when did we forget this is how we obtain food? 
When the breeze blows, or birds sing, when we have a moment between fish, or a kill, when there is time to dedicate to inactivity, then we find balance in life. One definition of life is the process of living, another is a state characterized by the capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction, all in which take physical and mental effort, therefore work. The only true balance to work or constant effort is in a society like that of Tibet, or like the Native Americans and ancient Hebrews lived for thousands of years. We must have days not dedicated to anything but relaxation, ironically the Sabbath day, Saturday, is just for that, a day without work. Sunday is the first day, the day of Temple. Wonder why we are so confused as to what work actually is, or the balance of living. Most of what we are taught from society, even our own faith is taught vaguely and misconstrued, with the sole objective to keep the machine the economic “us” running.
In all aspects of life we find ourselves working, at working on our selves, and our contributions to life. To be a model citizen or hell even a good parent, requires a tremendous amount of work. Each one, as many of life’s roles require us to constantly challenge what we want, with what we need, let alone getting out on that cold morning to help someone on a busy highway. To be a Good Samaritan requires so much work, it had to become a law in Alaska. I am asking you the reader, How many time have you passed someone broke down, or walking in the cold? How would like it if that were you in their shoes? Look how it has paid off, what a great bunch of people, the Alaskans. When the economy slows down in Alaska people do not freak out, they take care of themselves and each other. There are ways to get food and water without capital, however not without work. To do everything opposite of what we would normally do requires work so vast that we each only do it seldom as possible. It’s so sad we do not work to be a better people. Imagine how much relaxation time we would have if we all pulled together to make this a better place. Look again at the Tibetan, and other ancient cultures, their monks have found that balance we all work so hard to find. These people also teach to be conscience of every breath, which takes work, however it so worthwhile according to Buda, is the first step to balance in life. 
It will always be that we have to apply activity, or mental effort to overcome, achieve, accomplish, fulfill, complete our goals, simply to do, require work. A magician puts on an elaborate show, with many things to trick what we see, this is work. As it is a form of work in itself just as love is a form of work on its own. For those who meditate it takes work to shut off the outside world and distractions, such as pain from sitting in one form for a long while. Therefore, it is even in meditation we are working at clearing our minds and our bodies of being aware of only spirit; even this takes an extreme amount of mental and spiritual work. 
In conclusion, work is living. The entire action or thought preparing, developing, completing, and the whole process of being done, it is, as requires work. To require that life has to have some time without work means that one has to change the way they live. Remember to live literally means to “maintain one’s self”, to stay alive, all which is work. Balance in today’s world is like the multitude of books out there, it is all a matter of opinion. Time dedicated to inactivity is the best answer to finding balance; unfortunately we have to work to find the time.


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

zohawn said:


> exactly, ya know why they have all that "heart, drive and determination"? take a guess


I failed to respond to this one, sorry. I believe that it came from the bulldogs and terriers that are the ancestors of the breed, but was refined and improved on by the dogmen that created and stewarded what we know as the APBT today. Or maybe knew as the APBT a few decades ago?


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

It's obvious that we all have our opinions of work LOL!!! Work to me involves energy spent...now whether that is defined as sport or work is the fine line and the argument. We can discuss issues of enjoyment or purpose in regards to work till we're blue in the face. I also know that the A[Pit]BT was from working stock before the "pit" designation per se, I'm not so sure I agree that a bulldog that was an ace in the [] and not necessarily a great worker (at whatever was deemed work that is LOL) was worthless...but I respect that opinion as well 
I thought this thread really got the juices flowing and provoked a great deal of thought...kudos to everyone. While I don't give more credence or priority to how people care for or condition their bulldog, I do think that most on here have their bulldogs interest in mind...a good thing to be sure


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## SHARON MOYA (Feb 8, 2007)

Saint Francis said:


> It's obvious that we all have our opinions of work LOL!!! Work to me involves energy spent...now whether that is defined as sport or work is the fine line and the argument. We can discuss issues of enjoyment or purpose in regards to work till we're blue in the face. I also know that the A[Pit]BT was from working stock before the "pit" designation per se, I'm not so sure I agree that a bulldog that was an ace in the [] and not necessarily a great worker (at whatever was deemed work that is LOL) was worthless...but I respect that opinion as well
> I thought this thread really got the juices flowing and provoked a great deal of thought...kudos to everyone. While I don't give more credence or priority to how people care for or condition their bulldog, I do think that most on here have their bulldogs interest in mind...a good thing to be sure


Agreed! I have very much enjoyed reading through all of the posts.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

i love how the thread got way off topic, jumping from 1 idea to another. yall a bunch of adhd kids


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

zohawn said:


> i love how the thread got way off topic, jumping from 1 idea to another. yall a bunch of adhd kids


Aint no denying that. What makes this forum great is where our conversations go and the education that come come when you get so many knowledgeable people just spilling out info. None of use have to agree to educate. People will read this thread, decide where they stand and walk away knowing more than they did to begin with.. Mission accomplished.

This has actually been a very nice thread since it's almost all us older members and not 1 newbie in here being an ass over opinions. We all know how to argue with one another.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Everything this adhd big kid said was: well on point  what is work?? ... 

Most of us ppl w/ 3 animals or more suffer from anti social disorder. Emotionally disturbed...... don't leave that out.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Economically and emotionally bankrupt!!!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> Economically and emotionally bankrupt!!!


well put....................... hahaha


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