# Any help with MUM and Puppies appreciated



## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

Happy Christmas to all guys and girls new on here so bear with me.

We ( me and wife ) have two pit-bulls (mixes I guess as we don't have any paperwork they are both rescues ) but I am really happy with the way they came out, they have both come out really nice ( in temperament, size and shape ).

Big boy is about three now weighing in at about 55-60 kg ( that was before he got ehrlichiosis dropped down to 44 kg , but he is on antibiotics now so hopefully he will be back in no time) and baby girl is about 12 months, she fell pregnant a little while back ( between 22-25 of October ) and gave birth on the 23'rd of this month. ( I know she is too young to be bred, but those where not my intentions, me and the wife finally got the time to go on a delayed three day honeymoon, and a friend was looking after them for us, when we arrived back she told us what had happened !!

All puppies seem really healthy and stocky puppies 10 of them, at 4 days old weighting in from 350grms to 600grms , the birth went excellent no complications at all, she took care of everything didn't have to do a thing.

The problems now are these,

She is looking half the size from what she was when she fell pregnant and her appetite has gone down,( she weighed in at about 25-28kg when she was about 10mnths) she is producing more than enough milk for all the puppies. But because she is quite young I don't want her to get any problems, she is on Multivitamin and calcium tabs she is fed a mix 50/50 dry and wet food plus bones and offcuts, any tips on how to get her going again.

Now with the puppies ( never bred puppies before so please bear with me I am still learning ) they are eating fine and gaining weigh ok I guess but they cry allot and I mean allot. they cry when they are eating, when they are sleeping, whenever wherever it just feels like they are throwing tantrums all the time is that normal or should I be worried ? and any other puppy tips are more than appreciated.

Thanks and God Bless.
Filip.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

You can give the mum goats (not cow) milk to help get some weight on but I am not a breeder. I am sure someone will pop up. I hope you are planning on spaying and neutering all the pups before placing them. As well as your adult dogs so you never ever have a litter again.

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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

Ok thanx will try goats milk and see if it help's. not sure about neutering or spaying the pups before I place them doesn't that take away from their growth etc... plus it can cause health problems don't it ? I will do my best to place the puppies with people that I know or a friends friend with some sort of agreement of them spaying/neutering at a certain age !
About my dogs I am not sure yet my female is way to young only a year or so, not spaying her any time soon will wait till she is fully grown and then see, I guess it also depends on what type of dogs their puppies will come out to be.


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## nthn79 (Dec 5, 2012)

Do research! Our dog was neutered at 6/7 months as soon as he had his shots, and our females (not pits) all were spayed young and believe me it didn't stunt their growth at all! Both are big and healthy, my lab is 13 years old and except for some hip issues she is going strong (well, general old lady grumps and slowing down, lol).

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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I, like Ames, am not a breeder so I don't have any help there either. But my boy was a year when I got him from the shelter, and they nuetered him them. And if his growth was stunted at all by it, then I would hate to see what he woulda been like lol. He's 24" and 75lbs.


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## BullyGal (Jun 25, 2012)

I think you should spay and neuter your dogs now no matter what. Who cares what their pups turn out to be... they are mixed breed dogs,


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

BullyGal said:


> I think you should spay and neuter your dogs now no matter what. Who cares what their pups turn out to be... they are mixed breed dogs,


:goodpost:
Yes exactly you have mutts. Who if lucky will find a forever home but that's if they're lucky. If you want to start being responsible then spay and neuter every pup before they are rehomed.


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

For those that where here to help thanks again, the mum has picked up in the last couple of days eating 2 or so pounds of food a day ( looking much better )not sure if her being out and about for walks has triggered her appetite ? who knows

Puppies are growing healthy a week old sunday and all of them doubled in weight but the 2 boys that have sky rocketed weighing @ 700 and 750gr.

Now for the others, 
Yes I do want to get the pupps spayed neutered but in the right way people stop throing fits and acting like children, one person on here seemed to give a streight forward answer to do research and i did, and this is what i found.

At What Age Should You Spay or Castrate Neuter Your Dog? What you Vet may not tell you

Don't Make This Mistake When Scheduling Your Dog's Neutering Procedure

Spaying or Neutering - The Risks and Benefits - Whole Dog Journal Article

I have never heard of a reputable honest breeder doing anything like that to dogs that are less than 12-16 months old.

And for my dogs YES are mixed but who cares,at least I don't go around forging paperwork like allot of people claiming the mastiff/dogo/presa-pit (or even worse) mix puppies they have are pure-bred !! 
You see last Saturday I took my boy to the vet due to ehrlichiosis and there was a guy there that had an APBT paperwork, pedigree and all, when he saw my boy he asked me what he was and I told him a mix he didn't care.
You could see the disappointment in his face over his dog, where god knows how much he had paid for a well priced paperworked, pedigreed mix ( MUTT RIGHT ? ) . and could not get his hands of my boy. I see that all the time with my dogs specially with pitbull owners.

Most of my dogs have been PITS, You should do some research on the PITBULLS look at pictures and vids even on this website of OLD SCHOOL GAME BLOODLINES, some huge dogs mate I think at least a few of those dogs you would class as MUTTS !!
Back in the old days if my recollection of history is right ! there where no APBT , AM Bully etc... just BULLDOG bloodlines and that's what you Bred,

I would bet some of you almost anything that if an oldschool Bulldog( pitbull ) was placed in front of you it would be a mutt for you !!

And I mean ok 50 boxer 50 German shepherd I understand the mix, but 50 BULL and 50 BULL how is that a mix, anyway that's a discussion for another day.

Stop tripping over everything people, and learn to appreciate good looking dogs no matter whose dogs they are papers or not sometimes. stop being so proud hearted. learn/promote responsible dog ownership and breeding, Isn't that why we are all on this website for, because if people are here to just play smart then just stay away from my posts because you are barking up the wrong tree.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Greek-Pits-2013 said:


> [
> 
> A
> 
> ...


promote responsible ownership??? you are preaching to us when it was your unpapered mutts that had pups? I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. I see nothing wrong with what responses have been given to you.

You came on here saying you have no experience with pups or breeding and when people respond you claim you are better then alot of people with your mutts cause people have fake papers lol?? makes no sense.

Glad your bitch is doing better, goats milk is a great trick as well if needed you can mix a bit of oatmeal in there as a bulker but best bet is some high grade good quality puppy food. If you start to mix in too much then you can end up giving her the runs which defeats the purpose of upping calories.

And for the puppys crying all the time that is normal they are noisy and will only get worse and louder as they grow lol, enjoy them at 4 weeks when they are loud and momma is done cleaning up after them lol.

For the spay neuter If you don't know the owners or where the pups are going I would risk the small side effects like growth and have them fixed before they leave your home, another option would be to have a contract written up where they have to spay or neuter by a certain age { females usually 6 months , males could be the same or closer to a year} but with contracts they are only good if you are willing to follow through with them. 
As well if you are responsible and take care of your productions for life they should be microchipped before they leave you with YOUR info in it. That way if they are ever picked up by a shelter or as a stray they have your info to come back too, ensures they wont end up in a shelter or atleast lowers the chances. {i dont believe they scan if owner surrenders them} but you can include that in contracts as well, any issues later on they are to return to you.


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## BullyGal (Jun 25, 2012)

I know the different between a papered APBT and a mutt. The mutt has a background like yours, rescued without papers mixed with god knows what. Your female looks to have hound in it btw. You can't tell me the old doggers would take a random dog from the street and breed it just cause it looked close enough to a pure APBT

You don't know what your dogs are mixed with. You said your self that they are mixes so I don't understand why you are getting upset with us telling you the same thing. Who cares if its 2 "bull" breeds, the fact is they are mixed unpapered and untested.



> About my dogs I am not sure yet my female is way to young only a year or so, not spaying her any time soon will wait till she is fully grown and then see, I guess it also depends on what type of dogs their puppies will come out to be


Thats the comment that made me upset. Basically you are saying, If the puppies are pretty enough I'm gonna breed my mutts again.


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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

There's more to a dog than being 'good looking', and just because it is 'good looking', doesn't mean it should be bred. Yeah, your male may look good, and your female and male both may have good temperaments, but it still does not mean they should be bred. You say that you can't think of a good reputable breeder that would spay/neuter a dog a year old, but a reputable breeder also wouldn't have let a ten month old dog get pregnant. Members here DO promote responsible ownership, that's why they're hounding you about getting your mutts fixed. A LOT of the members (including me) have shelter mutts so don't get offended when your dogs are called mutts. And there are a few breeders with gamebred dogs on here too, but that is not what this topic was about. Although, I'm sure that even the breeders on this forum would tell you to do the same thing as the rest of us have. Be RESPONSIBLE, and spay/neuter so you don't end up with more mixed puppies. There's enough 'pit' mixes in shelters, don't need you adding too them.

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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

You go on a public dog forum and ask advice you are going to get what you ask for, and then some. The truth of the matter is that you were irresponsible for having two intact dogs of the opposite sex together without taking proper precautions. Yes, accidents happen for for those of us who have been at this forum for any decent span of time we see the likes of you waltz in here on a weekly basis asking advice and then getting all butt-hurt when people throw the cold-hard truth at you and it's not what you wanted to hear. The conversation progression goes something like this:

NOOB/BYB: "Oops, we had an '_accidental_' litter of puppies, what do we do?

GP MEMBER: "Be more responsible" "Spay/neuter all of your animals" "Stick around and learn a thing or two"

NOOB/BYB: "Booo, you a-holes answered my question and then gave me unsolicited, yet sound, advice but I am going to lash out at you because you told me I already knew but didn't want to admit to myself. I am now going to do some actual research (which I should have done in the first place before I ever put two intact dogs together and assumed they wouldn't breed) and try to prove you wrong anyway"

It's like that really annoying song you just can't get out of your head - playing on a constant, continuous loop.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I think the point your missing is how many dogs, mutts or otherwise, are already being killed everyday. Why add to the population. Not sure why country you live in but in the states we have HUGE problems with BSL (breed specific legislation) where they will ban any dog with a blocky head and a short coat and call it a pit bull. It's wrong. Just like when the media and society label a do based on looks. It's a disservice to every dog to allow them to be lumped into a category. If you have no clue what the lineage is for your dog, its a mutt just like my dog is. I don't love him any less because i don't know what he is and he is the best dog out there. There is NO REASON to breed mutts. There are a lot of papered dogs who should not be bred as well. Papers don't mean you should breed. There are many many factors to take into consideration before adding to the thousands of dogs already out there.

Most dogs do not take after their parents. They take after THEIR parents. The pups grandparents. So just because you like how your dogs acts doesn't meant the puppies will be the same. People who think their dog is special obviously don't know much about the bully breeds. I guarantee most feel their dog is special. Meaning although I know my dog is better than every single dog on this forum, it doesn't make it true. I bet everyone feels that way about their dog because to them, they ARE the best dog! It doesn't mean they should be bred.

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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

Guys yes there was an accident and I am pretty sure most of you have made them taking the wife on a honeymoon I don't consider irresponsible I think I owed it to her, Irresponsible I would consider leaving the dogs with a person but again we don't have the luxury in Greece/Crete of dog hotels so to say that will accept such dogs no matter how much money you give them !! , I came on here asking for some general advice about mum and puppy welfare tricks of the trade so to say that I could not get from picking up he phone and calling my VET as on matters such as these they seem to just give you a text book answer.

I get the point concerning neutering/spaying as I said before and I still don't see what the problem is with not neutering the pups straight away at this age if its not good for them, they are already being planned for microchips and passports when they reach 6-7 weeks ! and as I said in my previews post ANGELBABY I do plan on following up on the dogs, I live in Greece/ Crete an island the furthest the pups can go is 3 hours drive away !!and I am not preaching to anybody I just said that we are here to learn/promote !!

In terms of the comment BULLYGAL I didn't explain myself properly thus maybe the misunderstanding ( as I didn't think it would cause such a fuss ). The not neutering part went for the boy, the girl we actually found and was not from a shelter. we walked into a supermarket one day and she followed us in with a broken rope tied around her neck starving at about 3 months, as I said she seemed to me anyway a little bit to young to be spayed as we was planing on doing so because she does seem to have a slight hip problem with her rear leg joints leaning inwards .
The boy we got from an owner that could not care for him any more, he had changed 3 owners and we are still trying to track down the original owner or breeder and see if he has any paperwork !! on that chance he will not be neutered as he does seem to have good genetics concerning that the puppies will come out OK. hope that clears things up a little bit BULLYGAL.

Kwhitaker0604 : In terms of a dog just looking good is not good enough to breed I agree to a certain extent, unluckily here in Greece we don't have the privilege allot of the time to see physically or in pictures pedigreed ancestors even in papered dogs, you either see the parents and the paperwork or they say here are the papers the parents where from abroad that's it so to a certain eextent theres always a risk, and as for the neutering I didn't get upset about my adult dogs just the puppies as it seemed unhealthy.
Thnx


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

You should have spayed and aborted, enough mutts in the world.. Should appreciate a good dog no matter? What has your dogs done to earn this? No matter i know how it goes.

Spay and neuter your mutts to prevent future mutts, spay and neuter the litter and hopefully none will end up in a shelter or to someone not spayed or neutered to be bred out the ass.

Dogs are good dogs according to their handlers, a true good dog earns the keep.. Suck up the pride and pay attention to truth

You cant promote what you dont know..


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

Ames I have lived the best part of my life in the uk where BSL is rife staffy's and so being killed by the dosen as pitbulls, those where not my intentions. euthenasia is not a big problem in Greece apart from farmers shooting dogs although I must say there are more dog killings by their owners because they did not take the time to train them thus creating unbalanced dogs that lash out so the owners feel its the dogs fault in misbehaving and their duty to eliminate it and the merigo goes around, more and more people just let them stray so there is a growing problem with strays. but again as I said if I didn't care I wouldn't have got stray dogs I would have bought a couple ! they have cost us far more than just buying with all vacs, chips etc.. already in.


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> You should have spayed and aborted, enough mutts in the world.. Should appreciate a good dog no matter? What has your dogs done to earn this? No matter i know how it goes.
> 
> Spay and neuter your mutts to prevent future mutts, spay and neuter the litter and hopefully none will end up in a shelter or to someone not spayed or neutered to be bred out the ass.
> 
> ...


You will be surprised how a country boy from Greece that just happens to travelled around the world, with livestock is able to work his dogs, Damn my wife works our dogs and she is FINISH  But I guess they do have quite of a hunting culture in their roots to, but at the same time they are still pets !! Each to his own I guess


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

There is evidence both ways regarding early spay and neutering. There are pros and cons to both early just as there are pros and cons to waiting. I personally see no reason for pets not to be spayed or neutered. Therefore I understand if responsible people choose to keep their dogs intact. Its totally not my business. I will say you going on your honeymoon is perfectly acceptable. I just went on vacation and had a sitter. Don't get it twisted. Thats not the issues. Having them watched by someone who was irresponsible means you didn't act responsibly by finding a sitter who took proper care. You're guilty/irresponsible by default IMO. In any case, it doesn't really matter I only commented cause you mentioned it. and I do hope the pups and mum are healthy and everything is ok. I strongly feel what's done is done and just hope it doesn't happen again. I do wish you luck and I do love pictures...

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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Bottom line is you were irresponsible. You didn't handle your business and your bitch ended up pregnant. Those pups are mutts and you choosing to not spay or neuter those pups will result in more pups and more pups. Over population starts with people like yourself. There are cons to getting them fixed but the pros outweigh the cons by a ton. You created this problem with your irresponsibility, you clean it up and since its too late to get a spay abort on your dog. Fix the pups before you rehome them. It's that simple.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

You had an accidental breeding, yet you consider yourself to be a 'responsible' owner, correct? THAT is why you spay/neuter your pups before placement. It takes the burden of 'oops' off the next people. They might want to get married or live life too. Crap happens. You, yourself, have firsthand knowledge of that. Spay your bitch, neuter your male and speuter those pups before placement too. Please.


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

Happy New Year !!

Thanx guys Goats milk worked wonders, I got goats milk powder ( made milk ) and mixed it in with her food, since she has been eating like there is no tomorrow


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

As a breeder for the sake of the puppies I will give you advice.... then I will tell you what I really think ......

I love this website it's like a whelping and breeding online book for dummies
This page talks about right after the pups are born
Whelping Puppies, PostPartum Dam

This talks about the puppies from birth to 3 weeks
Breeding Dogs, Puppies from Birth to 3 weeks

Now for the concerning part, IT IS NOT NORMAL FOR PUPPIES TO BE CRYING ALL THE TIME! They can make a little noise but if they are crying a lot then there could be a problem with the moms milk. There is also something called fading puppy syndrome. This can happen at any time but up to about 3 weeks of age. It starts with crying and they could go on like this for a week or so before dying. Many times with fading puppies there is nothing you can do.
Whelping Stories: Trying to Save a Fading Dachshund Puppy

Your bitch should be on a good quality puppy food, water always availbe, and you can use some goats milk to help get her going again. I would feed your bitch 3 times a day for now if she will eat it. You will also use goats milk when you start to wean the puppies at about 4-5 weeks.

Now for how I feel about it.....
You are an irresponsible owner for not finding someone responsible enough to watch your dogs. If you were gone for 3 days then you already knew your bitch was in season and should ave made it very clear to the person watching your house to make sure they didn't breed. A females heat cycle is about 21 days long not 3 days. This is being irresponsible so take responsibility for your actions. I am a firm believer in waiting till the dogs are mature before fixing them but ONLY if the owner is responsible enough not to let them breed. Since you can't keep them from breeding then you should get at least one of them fixed now. Yes accidents do happen but instead of making excuses you take responsibility, that determines if you can learn from them or you just are going to do what you want.....


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## Wallies_momma (Oct 30, 2012)

ames said:


> I think the point your missing is how many dogs, mutts or otherwise, are already being killed everyday. Why add to the population. Not sure why country you live in but in the states we have HUGE problems with BSL (breed specific legislation) where they will ban any dog with a blocky head and a short coat and call it a pit bull. It's wrong. Just like when the media and society label a do based on looks. It's a disservice to every dog to allow them to be lumped into a category. If you have no clue what the lineage is for your dog, its a mutt just like my dog is. I don't love him any less because i don't know what he is and he is the best dog out there. There is NO REASON to breed mutts. There are a lot of papered dogs who should not be bred as well. Papers don't mean you should breed. There are many many factors to take into consideration before adding to the thousands of dogs already out there.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com App


Agree! Why would you continue to breed dogs were the majority of these types of dogs and mutts end up in shelters?? A dog should not be breed just because it has a good temperment. There are plenty of dogs out there especially mutts who are filling up shelters, why take the risk of adding to those numbers? 
I guess the main question I want to ask you is why do you feel the need to breed your dogs/mutts when there are plenty of good healthy homeless dogs out there that need homes? What cause are you helping? Or are you just breeding your dogs to make a quick buck?



> You should have spayed and aborted, enough mutts in the world..


Slightly harsh don't you think? His female got pregnant, obvioulsy this shouldn't have happened but it did. Why abort them just because they are mutts? My family has owned papered dogs and mutts, and I'm sure a lot of other people on this board with mutts agree with me when I say my mutts have been some of the best dogs we've owned. Being a mutt doesn't make them bad dogs. I would never support breeding a mutt but I would also never support aborting a batch of puppies because they are mutts.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Wallies_momma said:


> Slightly harsh don't you think? His female got pregnant, obvioulsy this shouldn't have happened but it did. Why abort them just because they are mutts? My family has owned papered dogs and mutts, and I'm sure a lot of other people on this board with mutts agree with me when I say my mutts have been some of the best dogs we've owned. Being a mutt doesn't make them bad dogs. I would never support breeding a mutt but I would also never support aborting a batch of puppies because they are mutts.


Not harsh at all, go to any shelter and you will find plenty of mutts no need homes, why bring more dogs into the world when you have a choice not to. It's a pretty simple fix to a problem.


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## Wallies_momma (Oct 30, 2012)

performanceknls said:


> Not harsh at all, go to any shelter and you will find plenty of mutts no need homes, why bring more dogs into the world when you have a choice not to. It's a pretty simple fix to a problem.


This is were we are going to have to agree to disagree  I can see where you are coming from if you believe the unborn pups are not yet a life. I believe aborting is like murder so human or dog I personally don't agree with it. To me aborting the pups is like euthanizing them when they are born, I at least think they deserve a chance. But this thread isn't about that and we obviously won't agree, and I honeslty don't want to change your opinion :thumbsup:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Leave breeding for designed purpose function and beneficial to both breed, yard and man. You want a good family pet? Go to a shelter. You want a unintentially bred mutt for no reason other than it happend? Go to the shelter. Harsh? No, it is what it is.If i had an oops moment or irresponsibly kept my female in heat and got preg, the pups are going to be aborded. No point in adding to the population or absolute no reason.


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## Kwhitaker0604 (Aug 6, 2012)

Wallies_momma said:


> This is were we are going to have to agree to disagree  I can see where you are coming from if you believe the unborn pups are not yet a life. I believe aborting is like murder so human or dog I personally don't agree with it. To me aborting the pups is like euthanizing them when they are born, I at least think they deserve a chance. But this thread isn't about that and we obviously won't agree, and I honeslty don't want to change your opinion :thumbsup:


So you'd rather them waste away in a shelter or be euthanized? Because that's what happens to the majority of bully breed mixes. Puppies or not, it doesn't matter. It's not just aborting them because they're mutts, it's because they're are already MILLIONS of MUTTS dying in shelters. Specifically bully breed mutts.

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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Ya know I thought it was kinda sad when Ryan took MJ in for the spay/abort but I totally understand and stand by his decision. I know it was for the best. 
Sometimes you just need to think about the breed as a whole, not just one or two dogs, and do the right thing. If you can't afford to keep and raise every puppy you produce then you shouldn't bring any more into the world. If an owner can no longer care for one and you can't take it back where do you think it will go? To the pound to be destroyed  Over breeding is a huge problem and because of it more and more dogs died every day to make room for the new ones.


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

Thnx for the replies, PERFOMANCE KENNELS - the mum is being free fed at the moment on high quality puppy food with water always available and since I started the goats milk she is looking much better.

Sorry I didn't reply about the puppies I think I got a bit carried away with the posts , she has 10 puppies and probably because of sleep depravity staying up most of the night worrying that she will squash them and rescuing the puppies for the first few days until she figured out what she was doing !! ( she is in the house now ), I failed to process in my head all the information 
So now I have figured out the reasons for all the crying ( or I think so anyway )
1 - half of the puppies sleeping the other half step over them to get to milk ( crying )
2 - once they get to milk crying over who will get best pick ( crying )
3 - puppy strayed away from mum a little bit ( crying )
4 - mum moves pups around as she cleans them ( crying )
5 - a bit of a sqeek at sleep time when they jerk ( I heard this is normal ? )
All of whom make sense and as I get abit more sleep nowadays It does not seem that bad ( guess a bit grumpy and it seemed worse than it was !! )

Now so many people have been bashing me for THINKING ABOUT IT when it comes to sterilizing young puppies, as I had said that I would do my best with the new owners wasn't enough, but I took the liberty today when most shops etc.. where open fter new year and looking at it with the vet and shelters, it turns out that there's a law in Greece saying that you are not allowed to sterilize any puppy/dog that is younger than 6 YES 6 months of age its illegal !!! 
So I am left with two options keep the pups until they are 6 months old fix them and then find them homes or apply some sort of written agreement, any ideas ?

As for the breeding part I didn't say that I would breed my male just because he had good temperament ??? someone else though sought and people just assumed that was my point of view !!! without ( probably ) reading my replies. I don't think that you should breed a dog just because of that, there are many more factors that come into play, genetics, structure, and for whatever use the dog will be used for etc.......

Secondly please read the posts, I said that I would breed considering we got hold of papers, that does not mean that I am determined to breed him NO, but it does mean that if a good female comes up and the puppies have already been secured to good homes ( as that's how I believe breeders should do it, you can agree to disagree ) than yes there could be a possibility to breed him.
Considering the fact that I have been approached by countless amount of people that wanted to breed with him and I haven't for various reasons (but just saying .
As with the female being fixed I have clarified that in another POST ( not going to bother reposting !! )
People keep banging on about DONT BREED DONT BREED, you will just ad to those on the street.
I strongly disagree with you, the actual problem is with the owners not the number of DOG'S ( to a certain extent of course )
someone said that would I be able to take care of the pups myself if so and so etc.. !! ( probably not all of them even if I could feed them as 12 dogs need allot of time and hard work in order for them to become well balanced dogs.
Concerning to that I have a cancer stricken 80% paralized dad at home we take care of and a wife 9 months pregnant it will be allot of work !!!!!
On the other hand I now a few people who could not take care of their dogs but taking the time found them very loving and caring homes. 
So I am a very strong believer in that, and here is a piece of an article by the city shelter that says pretty much the same thing !!

It's worth mentioning that from the 3,000 stray animals, as estimated, at the Heraklion Municipality, only one fourth are really stray animals, while the rest are dogs left by their owners to walk around unsupervised.
There are many complaints regarding great numbers of stray dogs in particular areas within the city of Heraklion. But when the personnel of the kennel reaches these areas discovers that these are housed animals that do not bear the necessary microchip and wander around without the supervision of their owner.

and here the website 
Measures for Stray Dogs in Heraklion - The Animals Shelter in Heraklion 
if anyone wants to check


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

The puppies sound normal to me, and now for some tough love....
As a breeder myself I do not think your male is a good example of the breed conformationally. If you want post up some more pictures in a stack and I will show you what I am talking about and compare your dog to the UKC and ADBA standard. With that said leave the breeding to the breeders who already have good stock to choose from. Sterilize your dogs, keep a pup or two, and be a happy pitty owner. You don't have to be a breeder to have dogs!

With the pups you have now I agree about the S/N NO dog should be S or N younger than 18 months IMO. To S/N a pup at under 3 months IMO is WRONG! Adopt the pups out on contract and hope the owners stick to it and do the right thing.


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

Thnx, performance kennels
I would appreciate your opinion on what you think of him, I took a look at your site BTW seems like you got some nice dogs m8.

Here are some fresh pics that I took today, not too good but will give an idea.
He is a bit chubby at the moment, as with my wife being at the end of her pregnancy he has not been in his usual long workouts.
And bfore people start going ape its not like hes not even getting to go out


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

He looks like a very tall dog, how tall is he?

First thing I notice is his tail is very thick with what looks like thick longer hair. APBT's tails should not look like that. He looks cow hocked on the rear end you can tell by the direction his feet are pointing. HE looks like he also lacks good angulation in the rear. In the first picture you see more of a natural stack and the lack of angulation, the second picture you see angulation but you can tell that is a stacked photo. Now of course i can't tell for sure but that's what it looks like. His underline looks ok for UKC standard.
Chest could be deeper it's a little shallow and he lacks forechest. In the first picture you can see his lack of forest and depth as his feet are very close together, then in the second picture his front feet are further apart but his elbows are sticking out. My guess is he moves like a train wreck based on what I see in his rear and shoulders. His shoulders are very straight and you can also see how the skin on his back goes into a roll above the shoulders. That is a good indication of straight shoulders. I can see the angulation is not good but for someone who doesn't know what to look for that's an easy place to start. Since I'm comparing him to the UKC standard his pasterns are very weak. His neck looks too long but that could just be how he is being held. His head is too big and blocky with his muzzle being too short for his long his skull is. He also has really big flews (lips are way too big and droopy) Over all I see a dog with poor breed type for UKC and he definitely does not meet ADBA standard. 

Now I'm sure he is a great pet and he is pretty to look at but when you compare him to the breed standard then he is a mess conformationally. There is no perfect dog, I can give you several things about all my dogs I find wrong however they have good breed type and meet standard. The little things in the ring will determine placement as where your guy has some major structural faults. If you want to be a breeder then do some research and start off with good stock don't just use what you have. Again I'm not saying this to put you down I'm simply pointing out things wrong with your dog compared to standard. Now can you find a dog in UKC who has won or is a CH with some big faults? yes you can and that's the judges fault for putting unsound dogs up. But as a whole to preserve the breed we should be breeding for sound dogs.


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## Wallies_momma (Oct 30, 2012)

Kwhitaker0604 said:


> So you'd rather them waste away in a shelter or be euthanized? Because that's what happens to the majority of bully breed mixes. Puppies or not, it doesn't matter. It's not just aborting them because they're mutts, it's because they're are already MILLIONS of MUTTS dying in shelters. Specifically bully breed mutts.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


I get what you are saying and this is where I struggle. I know that their chances for a good home can be slim and it could be more humane to just get them aborted as pups so they dont' have to go through all that pain. This makes PERFECT sense to me! 
But I can't help but struggle with the issue of why I'm special enough to make the choice to take an innocent life. Again bear with me that I feel abortion is like murder. If that life is never given a chance who knows what greatness will never be? 
I honestly don't know exaclty how I feel about this issue. I think not taking others feelings and beliefs into consideration is harsh, but honestly I get where you are coming from. Like I said, I don't want to change your guys mind for one reason of not knowing where I stand exactly on this issue myself.


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

In terms of high he is about 22 inches to the top of his back ..

Thnx for the info so in laymen's terms not good breeding stock in terms of UKC APBT standard ?

His rear did come out bad in the pics he is not cow hocked at all ?
But he does move pretty well ( considering his size of course 

But I defiantly don't know how to spot flat shoulders need to do some more research on that !

Oh those droopy lips yeah he is.

I mean yeah he is a good pet and a very hard working dog but if he is not a good breed standard there's no point breeding him.

In terms of being a breeder I wouldn't do it professionally, 
but as I am doing more research it seems like APBT are diminishing !! and specially good specimens ( mine is one I guess ) in our part of the world anyway, but depending how it goes with the puppies if we are able to find them all good homes and we don't have to keep any,
then we might be able to get a couple of GOOD dogs in terms of pedigree and structurally to breed locationally if there are some people interested in proper APBT. especially when you can consider that HERE even pitbull show organisers split red nose/black nose dogs into two different categories as they are different breed types of APBT apparently :-( and loads more.
I think it would be fair on the breed to at least have a couple of representatives for their breed from linage.
If you get my drift.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Wallies_momma said:


> I get what you are saying and this is where I struggle. I know that their chances for a good home can be slim and it could be more humane to just get them aborted as pups so they dont' have to go through all that pain. This makes PERFECT sense to me!
> But I can't help but struggle with the issue of why I'm special enough to make the choice to take an innocent life. Again bear with me that I feel abortion is like murder. If that life is never given a chance who knows what greatness will never be?
> I honestly don't know exaclty how I feel about this issue. I think not taking others feelings and beliefs into consideration is harsh, but honestly I get where you are coming from. Like I said, I don't want to change your guys mind for one reason of not knowing where I stand exactly on this issue myself.


Is putting a horse who has a broken leg down murder??... Aren't all animals considered innocent so the death of any animal should be considered murder. All animals from flys to cows. So the food you eat is the result of an innocent life being murdered. Or do only the lives of dogs count? Why not the lives of insects? I just don't understand your reasoning. Is it only a murder of innocence if they are aborted or should we wait until they are two years old and do it? I get the part about not knowing if perhaps there is greatness in that litter of mutts, however the statistics are greatly against that. So again your reasoning behind your statement is a bit strange to me. Even the Christian God places the lives of animals below those of man.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Wallies_momma said:


> I get what you are saying and this is where I struggle. I know that their chances for a good home can be slim and it could be more humane to just get them aborted as pups so they dont' have to go through all that pain. This makes PERFECT sense to me!
> *But I can't help but struggle with the issue of why I'm special enough to make the choice to take an innocent life. *Again bear with me that I feel abortion is like murder. If that life is never given a chance who knows what greatness will never be?
> I honestly don't know exaclty how I feel about this issue. I think not taking others feelings and beliefs into consideration is harsh, but honestly I get where you are coming from. Like I said, I don't want to change your guys mind for one reason of not knowing where I stand exactly on this issue myself.


youre the bigger, more powerful animal


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## Wallies_momma (Oct 30, 2012)

rabbit said:


> Is putting a horse who has a broken leg down murder??... Aren't all animals considered innocent so the death of any animal should be considered murder. All animals from flys to cows. So the food you eat is the result of an innocent life being murdered. Or do only the lives of dogs count? Why not the lives of insects? I just don't understand your reasoning. Is it only a murder of innocence if they are aborted or should we wait until they are two years old and do it? I get the part about not knowing if perhaps there is greatness in that litter of mutts, however the statistics are greatly against that. So again your reasoning behind your statement is a bit strange to me. Even the Christian God places the lives of animals below those of man.


I personally would try EVERYTHING in my power to fix the broken leg of that horse, whether it meant vet bills destroying my credit and having to live in my car (if I'm lucky) lol. Technically yes eating cows/chicken is considered murder, but I believe God put certain animals on this earth to be a source of food and certain animals to be companions. But if you are killing the animal to stay alive and use it for good, rather than just killing an animal because it MIGHT not have a good life to me are two different things. Its like hunting, if someone has to go out and kill an animal for food and nutrition well, that's why God put those animals here. But if they are hunting an animal because they want a trophy or because they deem that animal unfit, I'm against that. I wouldn't kill an insect either unless it was hazard. 
And again I know what you are saying that statisically it doesn't look good for mutts. But I guess I'd rather give them a chance then having to sign their death papers without knowing. I mean, I'm glad I was given a chance, I guess I'd like to pass that favor on. 
And yes animals are below man, but I also think the greatness of a nation can be judge by how they treat their animals. Just because you have control over something or someone doesn't mean that you should abuse that privilege. 
You don't understand my reasoning, because its MY reasoning lol. I don't view this world as black and white which is a lot of what your above statement is about. We have two different opinions  You don't understand my reasoning and I don't understand your reasoning of lumping everything into one catagory when to me every thing is so different and unique. 
I CAN see where you are coming from with the puppies however and if you think it's better for the sake of the pups to abort them then that's your choice  Afterall God gave us free will. But I also see the side of giving the lives a chance. 
The real source of the problem are people over breeding and not spaying/nuetering their dogs. The problem are not the puppies its the people who are creating the puppies.



> youre the bigger, more powerful animal


True  but I don't think someone more bigger or powerful than myself should have the right to chose the outcome of my life. Why should I be able to chose the outcome of the puppies life?


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Wallies_momma said:


> I personally would try EVERYTHING in my power to fix the broken leg of that horse, whether it meant vet bills destroying my credit and having to live in my car (if I'm lucky) lol. Technically yes eating cows/chicken is considered murder, but I believe God put certain animals on this earth to be a source of food and certain animals to be companions. But if you are killing the animal to stay alive and use it for good, rather than just killing an animal because it MIGHT not have a good life to me are two different things. Its like hunting, if someone has to go out and kill an animal for food and nutrition well, that's why God put those animals here. But if they are hunting an animal because they want a trophy or because they deem that animal unfit, I'm against that. I wouldn't kill an insect either unless it was hazard.
> And again I know what you are saying that statisically it doesn't look good for mutts. But I guess I'd rather give them a chance then having to sign their death papers without knowing. I mean, I'm glad I was given a chance, I guess I'd like to pass that favor on.
> And yes animals are below man, but I also think the greatness of a nation can be judge by how they treat their animals. Just because you have control over something or someone doesn't mean that you should abuse that privilege.
> You don't understand my reasoning, because its MY reasoning lol. I don't view this world as black and white which is a lot of what your above statement is about. We have two different opinions  You don't understand my reasoning and I don't understand your reasoning of lumping everything into one catagory when to me every thing is so different and unique.
> ...


I dig the fact that you have an opinion and won't drag this on by pointing out possible contradictions or even the religious side of the spectrum, because we would be waay off topic. I do hope you eat organic and not the cloned meat at the grocery store or your argument would be lost.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Greek-Pits-2013 said:


> In terms of high he is about 22 inches to the top of his back ..
> 
> Thnx for the info so in laymen's terms not good breeding stock in terms of UKC APBT standard ?
> 
> ...


Breeding a dog because you think he is great IMO is not a good enough reason to breed a dog. That is what we call a backyard breeder and those are the people we fight against as they are the ones filling up the shelters with dogs. If you want to have a good example of the breed I encourage you to go to the shows in your area. If your dog is registered then go show him and have judges help you see what your dog is compared to the standard.

IMO a APBT should look more like this, however i'm bias because I bred him lol








ANd him, Barca is also a UKC CH









This is another dual UKC/ADBA CH of mine


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Wallies_momma said:


> I personally would try EVERYTHING in my power to fix the broken leg of that horse, whether it meant vet bills destroying my credit and having to live in my car (if I'm lucky) lol. Technically yes eating cows/chicken is considered murder, but I believe God put certain animals on this earth to be a source of food and certain animals to be companions. But if you are killing the animal to stay alive and use it for good, rather than just killing an animal because it MIGHT not have a good life to me are two different things. Its like hunting, if someone has to go out and kill an animal for food and nutrition well, that's why God put those animals here. But if they are hunting an animal because they want a trophy or because they deem that animal unfit, I'm against that. I wouldn't kill an insect either unless it was hazard.
> And again I know what you are saying that statisically it doesn't look good for mutts. But I guess I'd rather give them a chance then having to sign their death papers without knowing. I mean, I'm glad I was given a chance, I guess I'd like to pass that favor on.
> And yes animals are below man, but I also think the greatness of a nation can be judge by how they treat their animals. Just because you have control over something or someone doesn't mean that you should abuse that privilege.
> You don't understand my reasoning, because its MY reasoning lol. I don't view this world as black and white which is a lot of what your above statement is about. We have two different opinions  You don't understand my reasoning and I don't understand your reasoning of lumping everything into one catagory when to me every thing is so different and unique.
> ...


 The spay abort issue is a tough one. I hate it, but I will spay any bitch who comes into my rescue pregnant. I hate it and I feel miserable about it, but I was not the one who chose (either on purpose or through ignorance) to add to the problem facing the breed. I feel way, way worse when I hold the nine month old pup at the shelter so he won't be alone when he dies because no one cares about HIM, he is no longer a puppy and somehow now, doesn't deserve a chance at life.
I would probably feel the same way as you if I hadn't seen, first hand, the suffering puppies and dogs go through in a shelter, or seen how hard it is to place those adorable puppies in homes that will stick with them past the adorable puppy stage. I see litter after litter born by dogs who belong to people with good hearts and good intentions and no clue. They place those pups, unaltered into other, equally well meaning, homes and the cycle expands.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

> I strongly disagree with you, the actual problem is with the owners not the number of DOG'S


 Yes, the PROBLEM is there are not enough good owners for the amount of these type of dogs ALREADY, there is no need to add more, More puppies does not equal more quality owners, it equals more dogs in need of good homes that already don't exist.
Don't be suckered by all the people who 'want one just like yours' ... there are tons out there already in every shape, color and size. The Pit Bull is a victim of it's own popularity


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## pitbullove (Dec 22, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> You should have spayed and aborted, enough mutts in the world.. Should appreciate a good dog no matter? What has your dogs done to earn this? No matter i know how it goes.
> 
> Spay and neuter your mutts to prevent future mutts, spay and neuter the litter and hopefully none will end up in a shelter or to someone not spayed or neutered to be bred out the ass.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## Wallies_momma (Oct 30, 2012)

rabbit said:


> I dig the fact that you have an opinion and won't drag this on by pointing out possible contradictions or even the religious side of the spectrum, because we would be waay off topic. I do hope you eat organic and not the cloned meat at the grocery store or your argument would be lost.


You said you didn't understand my reasoning and gave me several questions to answer, so I was just being polite and answering your questions with more reasoning. So dragging it on yea, but I'm not the only one  And I do get the sarcasm 
I do specifically remember saying I didn't want to change your minds. I would have left it at that had you not asked more questions, like I said, I was just being polite. :thumbsup: I feel like we've in way hijacked the thread but he is still getting his questions answered at least. 
I appreciate that you seem to be at least be more on the intelligent side when it comes to debating. But, it'd also be appreciated if you kept the condensending sarcasm out of it. :thumbsup: 
As much as I'd love to eat organic my poor wallet just won't allow it. It's either eat some meat or not eat at all, after all my husbands and I weekly grocery limit is about $30, when I can I will eat organic, because I get what you are saying.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Wallies_momma said:


> You said you didn't understand my reasoning and gave me several questions to answer, so I was just being polite and answering your questions with more reasoning. So dragging it on yea, but I'm not the only one  And I do get the sarcasm
> I do specifically remember saying I didn't want to change your minds. I would have left it at that had you not asked more questions, like I said, I was just being polite. :thumbsup: I feel like we've in way hijacked the thread but he is still getting his questions answered at least.
> I appreciate that you seem to be at least be more on the intelligent side when it comes to debating. But, it'd also be appreciated if you kept the condensending sarcasm out of it. :thumbsup:
> As much as I'd love to eat organic my poor wallet just won't allow it. It's either eat some meat or not eat at all, after all my husbands and I weekly grocery limit is about $30, when I can I will eat organic, because I get what you are saying.


There was no sarcasm. You're reading too much into what I said and attempting to make something bigger out of nothing. Which is fine but if I'm going to be condescending I'm going to do it by being as much of a bitch as I can be and I was not. Believe me, I was not. Let's try not to be so sensitive over the internet.


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## koeJ007 (Nov 1, 2011)

How are the pups doing Greek Pits? 
And yes you guys, your are hijacking the thread, its getting tiresome. Wally'smomma, I agree with you all the way. Even so, let's leave this thread open to the op. 

Pls post some pics of the pups as soon as you can, I'd love to see them


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

koeJ007 said:


> How are the pups doing Greek Pits?
> And yes you guys, your are hijacking the thread, its getting tiresome. Wally'smomma, I agree with you all the way. Even so, let's leave this thread open to the op.
> 
> Pls post some pics of the pups as soon as you can, I'd love to see them


Hi and happy new year guys..

The pups are doing very well thnx. they are 22 days old now weighing in from 1000gr to 1300gr apart from one thats 850gr.
weve been getting that one to feed a bit more than the others and just keeping an eye out for it.
little rascals are already up and about sparing and barking at everything that gets in their way !!
It seems like although the mum is producing all the milk she can there are just too many pups for her so 3 days now we have been supplementing with (milk formula-puppy food) watery mash a couple of times a day on top of her nursing them they attack it very confidently, and planning on start properly weaning them of from this week on as it seems to be taking a toll on her teeth, claws etc..

Already have been looking for good homes for the pups, yesterday we had a neighbours family with 4 young boys LOL come over with dad saying they wanted a pup for the family so trying to get them either into family or good working homes have also had a shepherd friend of mine asking if they would be good for flock guarding as he's had some problems with strays prying on he's sheep !!
( will consider single guys in their early-mid 20s that don't spend all day on their game boy thinking they are getting a Yorkshire terrier :rofl: joke pls don't get offended guys in your mid 20's im one )

Wife's still considering keeping a few :hammer: if we can afford it long term.I guess im doing the math then 

Id love to post some more pics but the last time I did I got told of, so if a FORUM MODERATOR can give me the green light I will.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

You should be able to post all the pictures of them you want as long as you are not trying to sell them on this site. Just post them in the picture area of the forum. Good news on the pups doing well. A 3 weeks, so now, you can get some goats milk and let the puppies try and lap it up. If you have a feed store like somewhere you can buy goats milk, As in what you feed baby goats in a bottle or goats milk from the store. Warm up and take a few pups out at a time and let them lap it up. It will take some of the pressure off mom and get them lapping up getting ready to wean. I wean my puppies at a bout 3-4 weeks old anyway and my dogs want to get back to work and the pups are old enough to start weaning. After a few times of letting them lap up goats milk I like to put some puppy food (dry) in a food processor and grind it into a powder. I add goats milk and make a soupy paste. The pups love that and it's easy for them to start eating. Then I just start grinding the food down less and less till they are eating hard kibble. You just have to find what woks for you. I'll wait for pictures!!


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi guys took some time, been a bit busy anyway here are some pictures of the pups they are doing really well at 5 weeks now. 
Been feeding food in the food processor mixed with milk and now only feeding of mum about once a day soon to be stopped and only going on food.
4 white ones 1 black/white and 5 tiger/white to varying degrees.
Something I noticed about the pups is all the NON white ones have blue eyes and the white ones seem to have brown eyes, any thoughts on that !
Have already found 4 of the pups good homes all of them with families, friends of mine grown up mature family people that want them as pets for the family.
Any thoughts on the pups hit me up, sorry for bad pics but that's the best I could do by myself thnx..
Just for the sake of my pictures not getting deleted 

NOT TRYING TO SELL THE PUPPIES PICTURES FOR ILLUSTRATION-AL PURPOSES ONLY THNX.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

CUTE Pups!!


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## Greek-Pits-2013 (Dec 27, 2012)

Thnx il try to post some better pics now that we are getting some nice sunny days, 
One question though is it possible to over feed these young puppies ? because at the moment I am letting them eat as much as they want and it seems like they are way over eating, it looks like that their belly's are bigger than they are !!

Thnx.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

mmm, lovely wormy puppy bellies! I can smell the puppy breath from here!


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## Wallies_momma (Oct 30, 2012)

rabbit said:


> There was no sarcasm. You're reading too much into what I said and attempting to make something bigger out of nothing. Which is fine but if I'm going to be condescending I'm going to do it by being as much of a bitch as I can be and I was not. Believe me, I was not. Let's try not to be so sensitive over the internet.


Then I apologize for reading into your post :cheers:


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