# Interesting discussion.



## ericschevy

I found this on accident. It's good..


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## buzhunter

Well. I'm sure it is very interesting but it will not load for me. I miss all the great stuff. LOL


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## ericschevy

buzhunter said:


> Well. I'm sure it is very interesting but it will not load for me. I miss all the great stuff. LOL


Are you a believer Buz? These two people lay down the law, well you'd have to see it..LOL

Anyway, they are talking about this move,

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/playground.php


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## buzhunter

Do I believe in God? No, but I do believe in, and live by, many Christian values. I can't wait to see where this thread goes, LOL...


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## ericschevy

It's too bad you can't load that you-tube link, it's good.
We had a discussion on evolution a while back and it went fine, if this one don't I'll just delete it.

The discussion is about how darwinism doesn't hold any water.
I'd explain it but it's pretty DEEP..LOL


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## buzhunter

The problem with my memory is that I rarely remember specific events but I make a determination and stick with that based upon my past experience. So, with that being said, i do remember deciding that you are a great person to discuss things with and I do look forward to it whenever possible. So what was the gist of the Darwinism discussion? I have to admit that I have never really studied the evolution theory and do not know much about it.


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## ericschevy

I tried to find the transcripts for it but no luck.
Basicly what's said is that how can you get something so intelligent from something with no contiance (SP), example used was mud.
There is an order to everything ie intelligence so how could you get intelligence without having it beforehand.


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## buzhunter

Evolution, LOL. How do you acheive gameness without having it beforehand? Gameness is not a natural trait yet humans accomplished it through selective breeding. We can still look at the wild canids that were the ancestors of game dogs and see that they are not game.


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## ericschevy

LOL that's the short answer..LOL
I don't know, Me myself I don't consider dogs as being a product of evolution simply because we had the the hand in it, it didn't happen on it's own.
Not to mention the genes of the k9 world are the most pliable.
You can breed them to look how ever you want.
But lets say cows, you can breed them how ever you want but they will never get short stumpy legs, a curly tail, long hair. It will always be a cow.


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## buzhunter

I don't know crap about cattle, LOL. But look at humans. It's obvious that we can control the outcome of our breeding program, for lack of a better term.


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## ericschevy

AKA Intelligence..LOL


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## ericschevy

Not to mention, even if life did originate from a single cell organism, why did it come to be destined to multiply and and become other things. By chance.
Either way you look at it, it comes down to why?


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## buzhunter

I think that this is the reason the creationists believe what they do - because they need to know why. I don't feel a need to understand the meaning of life. To me it's irrelevant. All I need to do in this lifetime is survive and hopefully pass on knowledge to my kids that will aid in their survival.


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## ericschevy

You always make a good point Buz..


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## buzhunter

Thanks, man. But I'm still well aware that I may be the dumbest SOB on the face of the earth, LOL. I just call it like I see it and if God is real, and I am doomed to an eternity in hell, well all I can say is that I hope he takes into account the fact that I just don't know any better. LOL


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## ericschevy

The only way you are doomed to hell is thru the unpardonable sin.


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## ericschevy

I have heard a few scholars say that it can't even be committed in the flesh.
So the way I take it is unless you deny him on your judgement day you're all good in the hood..LOL
But I'm not going to preach, I'm not qualified..LOL


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## buzhunter

I've been told in the past that God makes exceptions for those who do not know, or those who cannot learn his word. Although I do have every opportunity to learn, I choose not to because I cannot honestly commit myself to blind faith, which is IMO essential for worship. I would be lying if I said that I do believe. More than a few people I have talked to say that the reason they believe in God is due to the fear of the consequences of not believing. That to me is not a very good reason. I believe that if there is a God that he will appreciate my honesty. Aside from my foul mouth, LOL, I've never met a Christian who did not mistake me for a "good Christian". I also believe that God, if he does exist, knows our intentions and our hearts better than we do, no matter what we show on the outside.


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## ericschevy

There is no need for worship IMO, it's all in the heart..


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## buzhunter

What, is everyone else afraid of this thread or what? LOL


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## ericschevy

Probably, It took a while last time..lol


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## ericschevy

buzhunter said:


> I've been told in the past that God makes exceptions for those who do not know, or those who cannot learn his word. Although I do have every opportunity to learn, I choose not to because I cannot honestly commit myself to blind faith, which is IMO essential for worship. I would be lying if I said that I do believe. More than a few people I have talked to say that the reason they believe in God is due to the fear of the consequences of not believing. That to me is not a very good reason. I believe that if there is a God that he will appreciate my honesty. Aside from my foul mouth, LOL, I've never met a Christian who did not mistake me for a "good Christian". I also believe that God, if he does exist, knows our intentions and our hearts better than we do, no matter what we show on the outside.


There is obviously something there though, A true atheist is completely intolerant..


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## American_Pit13

ericschevy said:


> But lets say cows, you can breed them how ever you want but they will never get short stumpy legs, a curly tail, long hair. It will always be a cow.


Thats not true. My cattle have long hair lol.. They are Scottish Highlanders.


























And these are their summer coats lol you should see them in winter lol.


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## ericschevy

Damn girl, you have alot of animals..LOL


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## MY MIKADO

I will have to do my research but everthings DNA is made up of the same 4 aminio acids. So we share the same DNA witha tree or a cow or a rock. 

I'm glad you posted some pictures of the Highlander Holly I was going to bring them up. 

I find it amusing that all great scientist have been persecuted through the ages. Men have been killed and tortured because they wanted to know "why" something is the way it is.

I have no faith persay. I don't think that you should be-able to live a life of Hell and damnation and on your death bed profess love for a god and be-able to spend eternity in heaven. I don't pray for anything I figure that if their is a God or Goddess out there they know my needs and wants and if I'm to have it then I will. 

I don't think that a minority of people should be allowed to spoon feed the majority their ideas. To me that is what christians do. They travel into the depths of the jungle to save some mans soul that already has a faith. They have perscuted numerous people for believing differently then they do. 

I really want to see this movie. I'm open to all ideas and I will not jugde you for yous.


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## buzhunter

Are Christians really a minority? I just read the other day that Islam has passed Catholicism as being the largest religion but Christianity is still overwhelmingly more popular as a whole. I have to admit that I do feel safer knowing that Christian values still have some control over this country. Someone is going to control us via legislation and politics and I'd damn sure rather have Conservative Christians in office or on the Supreme court than Liberals, muslims, socialists, whatever you got. Although I do have some liberal views, I know that some of them would be good for me and not the country. I try to keep in mind that I am only a visitor here in life and I have to do all I can for my children's future even if it means i have to struggle or risk hell.


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## American_Pit13

ericschevy said:


> Damn girl, you have alot of animals..LOL


Lol Have you seen my myspace? I have pics of almost everything on there. I live on 400+ acres and they have tons of animals on this ranch.


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## ericschevy

american_pit13 said:


> Lol Have you seen my myspace? I have pics of almost everything on there. I live on 400+ acres and they have tons of animals on this ranch.


OH YEAH, I saw it. It took 5 minuted to load your page..LOL


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## ericschevy

We are a majority because most people do feel a need to know why.
Which is the very foundation of what ever you believe.


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## ericschevy

MY MIKADO said:


> I will have to do my research but everthings DNA is made up of the same 4 aminio acids. So we share the same DNA witha tree or a cow or a rock.
> 
> I'm glad you posted some pictures of the Highlander Holly I was going to bring them up.
> 
> I find it amusing that all great scientist have been persecuted through the ages. Men have been killed and tortured because they wanted to know "why" something is the way it is.
> 
> I have no faith persay. I don't think that you should be-able to live a life of Hell and damnation and on your death bed profess love for a god and be-able to spend eternity in heaven. I don't pray for anything I figure that if their is a God or Goddess out there they know my needs and wants and if I'm to have it then I will.
> 
> I don't think that a minority of people should be allowed to spoon feed the majority their ideas. To me that is what christians do. They travel into the depths of the jungle to save some mans soul that already has a faith. They have perscuted numerous people for believing differently then they do.
> 
> I really want to see this movie. I'm open to all ideas and I will not jugde you for yous.


It is what it is. The love for us supercedes everything..

If your son did something so unspeakable would you still have love for him??


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## MY MIKADO

NO I would not still love him and he knows this. I did not bring him into this world to hurt another living being. My philisophy is to tread lightly on this Earth and to leave it a little better than you found it. 

I believe you are wrong about Christains being the majority. They are the most outspoken of all religions but I do believe that there are other religions that have a larger following.

In my eyes that is just plain wrong I would think that a God would take into account your life and how you lived it before he pardoned you. Say Hilter said as he was dieing "Jesus I love you and all that you stand for, forgive me." Should he be allowed to travel through Heaven with Mother Teresa. I don't think so and if Hitler is there I don't want to be there. 

I could never vote for a chriatian conservative to run our country. I have many banned book I watched movies that they call harmful to the morality of our children. What I read and watched only opened my mind to different ideas which given my freedom I was able to research and discover if that was what I wanted to believe or not. If Christains had their way we would not have that.


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## smokey_joe

I believe in God because I have had prayers answered. Everything in my life has led me to something better, no matter how hard I feel like my troubles are at the time. Later, I realize that if I did not go through that, then I would be missing out on something. Sometimes, I have to go through difficult times to appreciate the good ones. Some call that making lemon aide out of lemons, I call that God knowing better than I do.

I also believe in evolution. The bible says that God created the heavens and the earth in six days, but it also says that God knows no time. What is a day to God? 

Evolution came into theory because Darwin visited two seperate islands. Both islands had the same species of birds, but the birds were very different on the two islands. The birds had "evolved" to adjust to their habitat. Look how isolated Australia is. They have animals you find no where else on the planet. The only thing that bothers me about evolution is that if we all came from one single cell, then there should be a common element in everything on the face of the earth. As far as I know, no such element exist.

Some people ask why we are not still evolving. In my opinion, we are. There is not so many differences between the races anymore. Also, watch a movie from the 1960's or 70's and then watch a modern movie. Notice how different people looked then. There is almost no one in America that still have all of their original parts. And, I'm not just talking boob jobs and hair extensions. I have fillings in my teeth. 

Also, once you learn to manipulate your environment, the need to change with it diminishes. If it's too cold, we turn on the heat. Too hot, air conditioning. Not enough oxygen? Wear an oxygen mask. Is your heart failing? Have a transplant. Get a leg blown off in war? Here's a prostetic. Can't see too good? Buy some glasses. 

There are also "switches" in DNA that can be manipulated by scientists to reverse evolutionary phenomenon. The closes living relative to prehistoric dinosaurs is the chicken. There are "switches" in chicken DNA that they have been messing with. They have created chickens with tails, chickens with teeth, chickens with short front arms.... This technology is still really new, and I don't think they'll actually "create" a T-Rex from a chicken, it's too hard to manipulate DNA. There is also no way of knowing if every aspect of what used to be is still there. Also, when you start messing with "switches," you don't really know what everything does. Every chromosome controls so many different aspects of our makeup, it's really hard to manipulate DNA to get exactly what you want. Like with Downs Syndrome, everything associated with that disease can be traced back to a mutation on the 21st chromosome.

And since it is all so very complicated, that is why I believe life can't all just be due to chance. There is something there that is much more intelligent that we are. The design of life is just too perfect.


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## MY MIKADO

Like I said before all living things have the same 4 aminio acids that make -up their DNA.


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## ericschevy

DNA doesn't prove or disprove anything, your dna is what makes you look the way you do. So of course apes are going to share the same dna as us, they resemble us. DNA is just the building blocks. Things that look alike are going to share "SOME" dna. Things that are related are able to breed. As far as I know humans can't be crossed with anything.


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## smokey_joe

All *living* things...

But if everything on the face of the planet came from one cell, then there should be a common cell to everythin on the face of the planet. This includes air, water, plants, and animals.

Amino acids make up protien, not DNA. There are 20 common amino acids found in the protien of living things. The more closely their protien make-up, the more closely the two living things are related.

DNA is a sequence of neucleotides. There are 4 neucleotides that make up DNA. Three of the four are used to make up the code of one amino acid found in protien.

All living things have the same four neucleotides that make up their protien.


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## smokey_joe

ericschevy said:


> DNA doesn't prove or disprove anything, your dna is what makes you look the way you do. So of course apes are going to share the same dna as us, they resemble us. DNA is just the building blocks. Things that look alike are going to share "SOME" dna. Things that are related are able to breed. As far as I know humans can't be crossed with anything.


If the species are related closely enough, then they can be crossed. Look at the liger.

DNA is about a lot more than looks. And since it is the "building block" to life, it very well may prove or disprove a great deal...


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## ericschevy

I'm just sayin that just because apes share alot of the same dna as us that doesn't mean that they are our cousins. That always seems to be the deciding factor for most.


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## ericschevy

Untill it's discovered that we can breed with another animal without genetic intervention no one (even "atheist sientists") are going to tell me that I evolved from another animal. LOL


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## buzhunter

MY MIKADO said:


> I could never vote for a chriatian conservative to run our country. I have many banned book I watched movies that they call harmful to the morality of our children. What I read and watched only opened my mind to different ideas which given my freedom I was able to research and discover if that was what I wanted to believe or not. If Christains had their way we would not have that.


Well, the unfortunate predicament that we as Americans are in is the fact that we only have a limited amount of choices. 2 LOL. Left or right. Like I said, I have a few liberal views and there are a lot of things about right that I don't agree with but I would never vote for my own personal gain. The good side of that statement is that we would not have Christians banning books. Small price to pay in the effort to avoid a socialist society which is the direction that the most likely canidate (Clinton) is trying to take this country. Do they even ban books anymore? LOL


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## buzhunter

ericschevy said:


> As far as I know humans can't be crossed with anything.


Not necessarily true. I just read the other day that in the UK they have successfully crossed cow dna with human dna. Not sure of all the details but I will Google it now that you reminded me.


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## MY MIKADO

"The Universal Genetic Code". It is known as "universal", because it is used by all known organisms as a code for DNA, mRNA, and tRNA. The universality of the genetic code encompases animals (including humans), plants, fungi, archaea, bacteria, and viruses. However, all rules have their exceptions, and such is the case with the Genetic Code; small variations in the code exist in mitochondria and certain microbes. Nonetheless, it should be emphasized that these variances represent only a small fraction of known cases, and that the Genetic Code applies quite broadly, certainly to all known nuclear genes.


Genetics is not a good subject for me as I don't undertand it all that well. My sister is a science brain in the family, but she tells me that blue green algea is the lowest life form that contains the same DNA as we have. That is the building blocks of all life form.


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## ericschevy

buzhunter said:


> Not necessarily true. I just read the other day that in the UK they have successfully crossed cow dna with human dna. Not sure of all the details but I will Google it now that you reminded me.


Yeah with genetic intervention. I'm talking about the good old fashioned way. The way it's supposed to be..LOL


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## buzhunter

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3663033.ece

Tell me that ain't crazy. LOL Scary world we live in folks. I'm going to the mountains.


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## MY MIKADO

Yes Buz every year the Vatican puts out a list of books that is unacceptable and they do not wanting you to read. The Chrisatins also have their hands in the movie industry they had a fit over Narnia and the Golden Compass when they came out. If it were up to Chriatians thousands of children would not be hooked on reading becuase Harry Potter would never have been allowed on the shelves. 

What is wrong with a socialist government. Everyone is entitled to health care and all have a house and everyone has a chance to be something. Money and social status do not play apart in what you have.


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## buzhunter

ericschevy said:


> Yeah with genetic intervention. I'm talking about the good old fashioned way. The way it's supposed to be..LOL


Yeah, reminds me of that saying "when men were men, and sheep were nervous" LOL But if we are so different than any other species, then how is it possible? Come on Smokey Joe, you seem to be the one with the big brain here. LOL Break it down for us.


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## ericschevy

LMAO That would be quite a site if it was able to live long enough to resemble something, they also said it would never develop.
Being able to manipulate cells may very well be our downfall.
When they start creating super humans there will no longer be a need for us..LOL


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## ericschevy

MY MIKADO said:


> "The Universal Genetic Code". It is known as "universal", because it is used by all known organisms as a code for DNA, mRNA, and tRNA. The universality of the genetic code encompases animals (including humans), plants, fungi, archaea, bacteria, and viruses. However, all rules have their exceptions, and such is the case with the Genetic Code; small variations in the code exist in mitochondria and certain microbes. Nonetheless, it should be emphasized that these variances represent only a small fraction of known cases, and that the Genetic Code applies quite broadly, certainly to all known nuclear genes.
> 
> Genetics is not a good subject for me as I don't undertand it all that well. My sister is a science brain in the family, but she tells me that blue green algea is the lowest life form that contains the same DNA as we have. That is the building blocks of all life form.


I'm sure that it does share some of the same dna.


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## ericschevy

Read this,

A subject of frequent discussion among creationists and evolutionists is the remarkable genetic similarity between humans and apes, somewhere in the neighborhood of 98 to 99 percent. This curious situation leads to some questions. Why is it so difficult for evolutionists to determine the human-ape connection from fossils, if we have a common ancestry, and why would God create something so similar to man, if we don't?

In the first place, many mammals have a high degree of genetic similarity (Spetner, Not by Chance, page 69). For example, the cytochrome C of a dog is about 90 percent similar to that of a human, and the hemoglobin of a horse is about 88 percent similar to that of a human. In view of this, a 98 percent genetic similarity between apes and humans is not surprising. It is interesting that some sources put the difference between humans and apes much higher, as high as 10 percent. At least for one gene, human and chimpanzee alleles seem to differ by 13 base pairs out of 270, for a difference of about 5 percent. (See Science, 6 Jan. 1995, pp. 35-36.) 
There are also some notable differences, apparently. Mammals in general can drink and breathe at the same time, according to a posting on talk.origins. But humans cannot. This is the price we pay for being able to speak. It would seem that this must involve quite a bit of genetic difference from the apes. 
The following quotation from ReMine, The Biotic Message, page 449, calls into question the significance of DNA similarity: There are two species of flies (Drosophila) that look alike but have only 25 percent of their DNA sequences in common. Yet the DNA of humans and chimpanzees share 97.5 percent. This means the DNA of two virtually identical flies is 30 times more different than that betweens humans and chimpanzees. ​It should also be noted that chimpanzees have 24 pairs of chromosomes and humans have 23 pairs, so there is a definite discontinuity.

Many of the similarities between humans and apes derive simply from the structural similarity of their skeletons. Given any animal that is partially upright, with grasping hands on its forelimbs, there may just be one optimal way to design the rest of the organs. For example, such an animal will need extra intelligence to control its hands. It will also tend to be flexible and adaptible, and not so tied to the seasons as other animals are; thus it is more reasonable to have a reproductive cycle that permits offspring at any time of year, rather than only at certain seasons. Thus much of the genetic similarity may simply be a result of structural similarity. 
This does complicate the fossil picture, however. The similarities of the skeletons, combined with the various races of man and the various species of apes, can make the evolutionary task of determining ancestry very confusing. Add to this the fact that one does not always have a complete skeleton, but only a few bones, or fragments of bones. Furthermore, what makes humans unique is not the structure of our skeleton but intangibles such as language, culture, and thought, which are very difficult to infer from the fossil record. Even if these differences arise from one or two percent of the genome, this is a very significant one or two percent. And in fact, there appears to be a notable division between the skeletons of apes and humans. Glenn C. Conroy of Washington University in St. Louis reported in the journal Science in June, 1998 that "Mr. Ples," the name given for the fossil of an Australopithecus africanus, a hominid that lived in what is now South Africa, had the brain capacity of about 515 cubic centimeters. Another A. africanus skull had a brain capacity of 370 cc. Modern humans have a brain size of about 1,350 cc., while 370 cc is the size of a chimpanzee brain.


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## buzhunter

MY MIKADO said:


> What is wrong with a socialist government.quote]
> 
> Well, the first thing that comes to mind is the U.S.S.R. LOL.
> I just don't believe in "entitlement". I belive that you have to work hard to acqure the things you need in life such as a house and healthcare.
> Life should be hard. It builds character. My life basically sucks as far as financial or social status goes but I live for the struggle. I love it. It gets hard and it's always frustrating to see others living the easy life, BUT I do believe that you get back what you put in, and hard work pays off. A lot of people who have great things in this world have them because they busted their asses to get them. I belive in Capitalism. I would not want it any other way because the opportunity is there, we just have to work for the prize. This was at one time a great country where we were guaranteed equal opportunity, but NOT equal results. Only the strong survive. I don't know, I kinda get off on the fight, you know? I guess that's why I am so drawn to a breed of dog that will sacrifice everything just to succeed.


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## smokey_joe

ericschevy said:


> Yeah with genetic intervention. I'm talking about the good old fashioned way. The way it's supposed to be..LOL


Horses and donkeys mate the old fashioned way to create mules. Two closely related but separate species coming together to make one.

As far as I know, there is nothing that we can mate with naturally other than humans. (Thank God!!!) Mountain men all over the world can breathe a sigh of relief. LOL.

And usually, whenever scientists do come up with their crazy breedings, the offspring is sterile. Most mules are sterile.

I'm taking a class and dinosaurs and mass extinctions right now. I thought it was going to be an easy "A". Boy was I wrong. Since the beginning of time, there have been five huge mass extinctions. The one that wiped out the dinosaurs isn't even the biggest. It is estimated that 99.9% of all organisms that have ever lived on the planet, including single celled organisms, are now extinct. We aren't even aware of all of the species that currently reside on the planet, much less everything that has EVER been here. The fossil record is so incomplete that often times, whole skeletons are reconstructed using a fragment of a single bone. Less than 1% of all species that have ever lived have found their way into the fossil record. Since life developed, it has been estimated that there have been about 30 billion different species. Of those 30billion, only 250,000 have been preserved. About 1 bone in a billion become fossilized. There are about 300 million people living in the US. There are 260 bones in the human body. That is about 78 billion bones altogether. If we all died right now, you could expect to get 78 fossilized bones from humans in the US. This only amounts to 1/3 of a human skeleton.

I guess what I'm getting at is that we are not as smart as we think we are. We don't know everything we think we know. Everything that we have ever been taught is based on a lot of speculation and guessing.

Species are currently becoming extinct at unprecedented rates. Scientists believe we may be in the mist of a great mass extinction right now. So, in a few years, none of this is going to matter anyway. If there is anything beyond the here and now, we'll find out about it soon enough. The only things certain in life are death and taxes, and April 15 is two days away.


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## ericschevy

smokey_joe said:


> Horses and donkeys mate the old fashioned way to create mules. Two closely related but separate species coming together to make one.
> 
> As far as I know, there is nothing that we can mate with naturally other than humans. (Thank God!!!) Mountain men all over the world can breathe a sigh of relief. LOL.
> 
> And usually, whenever scientists do come up with their crazy breedings, the offspring is sterile. Most mules are sterile.
> 
> I'm taking a class and dinosaurs and mass extinctions right now. I thought it was going to be an easy "A". Boy was I wrong. Since the beginning of time, there have been five huge mass extinctions. The one that wiped out the dinosaurs isn't even the biggest. It is estimated that 99.9% of all organisms that have ever lived on the planet, including single celled organisms, are now extinct. We aren't even aware of all of the species that currently reside on the planet, much less everything that has EVER been here. The fossil record is so incomplete that often times, whole skeletons are reconstructed using a fragment of a single bone. Less than 1% of all species that have ever lived have found their way into the fossil record. Since life developed, it has been estimated that there have been about 30 billion different species. Of those 30billion, only 250,000 have been preserved. About 1 bone in a billion become fossilized. There are about 300 million people living in the US. There are 260 bones in the human body. That is about 78 billion bones altogether. If we all died right now, you could expect to get 78 fossilized bones from humans in the US. This only amounts to 1/3 of a human skeleton.
> 
> I guess what I'm getting at is that we are not as smart as we think we are. We don't know everything we think we know. Everything that we have ever been taught is based on a lot of speculation and guessing.
> 
> Species are currently becoming extinct at unprecedented rates. Scientists believe we may be in the mist of a great mass extinction right now. So, in a few years, none of this is going to matter anyway. If there is anything beyond the here and now, we'll find out about it soon enough. The only things certain in life are death and taxes, and April 15 is two days away.


DING DING DING, We have a winner..LOL
I guarantee you 100 yrs from now this so called Science today will be an embarrassment.
How much time has passed since we could even decipher DNA? Like 15 yrs or so.
I guess what I'm getting at is if I was an Atheist I would believe everything an Atheist scientist come up with too.
Do you have any statistics on how many scientists are also Atheists?
To me that's a major conflict if interest, then again it would be vise versa.


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## ericschevy

I was a little surprised..LOL

The question of religious belief among US scientists has been debated since early in the century. Our latest survey finds that, among the top natural scientists, disbelief is greater than ever - almost total.
Research on this topic began with the eminent US psychologist James H. Leuba and his landmark survey of 1914. He found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected US scientists expressed disbelief or doubt in the existence of God, and that this figure rose to near 70% among the 400 "greater" scientists within his sample [1]. Leuba repeated his survey in somewhat different form 20 years later, and found that these percentages had increased to 67 and 85, respectively [2].
In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in _Nature_ [3]. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever - a mere 7% of respondents.


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## smokey_joe

ericschevy said:


> Do you have any statistics on how many scientists are also Atheists?


Here's what I found:

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism1.htm

I think it's strange how the survey found that mathematicians are much more inclined to believe in God than scientists. I wonder why? My guess would be that there are so many mathematical phenomenon that occur in nature, like the numbers pi and phi. From a mathematical point of view, these phenomenon justify a divine design to life. But, whenever naturally occurring phenomenon are found in science, they are considered contradictory to God. I wonder why this is?


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## ericschevy

Petty sad. Did you see the article I posted on page 2 of this thread? Go look.


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## smokey_joe

ericschevy said:


> Petty sad. Did you see the article I posted on page 2 of this thread? Go look.


I can't find an article on page 2?? Am i overlooking it?


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## ericschevy

My bad It was page 4 lol. Here

A subject of frequent discussion among creationists and evolutionists is the remarkable genetic similarity between humans and apes, somewhere in the neighborhood of 98 to 99 percent. This curious situation leads to some questions. Why is it so difficult for evolutionists to determine the human-ape connection from fossils, if we have a common ancestry, and why would God create something so similar to man, if we don't?

In the first place, many mammals have a high degree of genetic similarity (Spetner, Not by Chance, page 69). For example, the cytochrome C of a dog is about 90 percent similar to that of a human, and the hemoglobin of a horse is about 88 percent similar to that of a human. In view of this, a 98 percent genetic similarity between apes and humans is not surprising. It is interesting that some sources put the difference between humans and apes much higher, as high as 10 percent. At least for one gene, human and chimpanzee alleles seem to differ by 13 base pairs out of 270, for a difference of about 5 percent. (See Science, 6 Jan. 1995, pp. 35-36.) 
There are also some notable differences, apparently. Mammals in general can drink and breathe at the same time, according to a posting on talk.origins. But humans cannot. This is the price we pay for being able to speak. It would seem that this must involve quite a bit of genetic difference from the apes. 
The following quotation from ReMine, The Biotic Message, page 449, calls into question the significance of DNA similarity: 
There are two species of flies (Drosophila) that look alike but have only 25 percent of their DNA sequences in common. Yet the DNA of humans and chimpanzees share 97.5 percent. This means the DNA of two virtually identical flies is 30 times more different than that betweens humans and chimpanzees. ​It should also be noted that chimpanzees have 24 pairs of chromosomes and humans have 23 pairs, so there is a definite discontinuity.

Many of the similarities between humans and apes derive simply from the structural similarity of their skeletons. Given any animal that is partially upright, with grasping hands on its forelimbs, there may just be one optimal way to design the rest of the organs. For example, such an animal will need extra intelligence to control its hands. It will also tend to be flexible and adaptible, and not so tied to the seasons as other animals are; thus it is more reasonable to have a reproductive cycle that permits offspring at any time of year, rather than only at certain seasons. Thus much of the genetic similarity may simply be a result of structural similarity. 
This does complicate the fossil picture, however. The similarities of the skeletons, combined with the various races of man and the various species of apes, can make the evolutionary task of determining ancestry very confusing. Add to this the fact that one does not always have a complete skeleton, but only a few bones, or fragments of bones. Furthermore, what makes humans unique is not the structure of our skeleton but intangibles such as language, culture, and thought, which are very difficult to infer from the fossil record. Even if these differences arise from one or two percent of the genome, this is a very significant one or two percent. And in fact, there appears to be a notable division between the skeletons of apes and humans. Glenn C. Conroy of Washington University in St. Louis reported in the journal Science in June, 1998 that "Mr. Ples," the name given for the fossil of an Australopithecus africanus, a hominid that lived in what is now South Africa, had the brain capacity of about 515 cubic centimeters. Another A. africanus skull had a brain capacity of 370 cc. Modern humans have a brain size of about 1,350 cc., while 370 cc is the size of a chimpanzee brain


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## ericschevy

This is the one I have been looking for..


The theory of evolution proposes that gradual positive changes in a species, over a long period of time, will eventually result in a new and different species. The positive changes (mutations) must also occur in the genetic coding material (DNA) so that the changes can be passed on to the next generations. An overwhelming problem for evolution is the fact that random genetic changes in a complex organism are not favorable. At best they are neutral. DNA is information. It is a language that describes in detail the specific creature it was coded for. Any changes in the code can be considered a loss of information. Evolution requires an increased amount of information. 
Random changes in an animal's DNA result in some non-functional anatomic structure which usually means death. This is "Nature's" way of preserving the quality of a species. There are fixed limits of variation in a species. Scientific observations in breeding and by inducing mutations by radiation and chemical means show no improved changes and no new species. These results directly contradict evolutionary theory. 
The Human Genome Project is a world wide cooperative effort begun in 1988 to completely decode the human DNA. This includes all 46 chromosomes down to the nucleotide monomer (individual building block molecule) sequence. By 1992, 2000 of the 50,000 to 100,000 genes in the human genome had been sequenced. The precise mutation point (nucleotide change) in some fatal hereditary diseases have been determined. The results of this research is also fatal to the theory of evolution. 
Cystic fibrosis is one example. Cystic fibrosis is an autosomal recessive hereditary disease affecting about 2000 babies each year in the United States. It is caused by a tiny mutation in Chromosome 7 that leads to the deletion of a single amino acid out of a sequence 1480 amino acids long. The total nucleotide monomer content of the human DNA is at least 3 billion nucleotides. All are specifically interdependent in very complex ways. The cystic fibrosis genetic mutation involves a random change in no more than 3 nucleotides, or one part per billion. 
The scientific evidence obtained from the human genome project indicates that a genetic mutation of as little as 0.0000001% of an animal's genome is fatal. 
The genetic difference between humans and their nearest "relative" is at least 1.6% when considering chimpanzees. The number of random beneficial nucleotide changes required to bridge the gap between man and chimpanzee is about 48 million. Obviously there is no way to bridge even a small genetic gap in animal species by random genetic changes. Quantitative genetic information from the Human Genome Project is proving the theory of evolution to be the most irrational belief ever held by mankind. Individual species had to be assembled separately in the genetic code by an intelligent being whose electrical and chemical engineering technology is vastly superior to ours.


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## smokey_joe

I just love talking about this kind of stuff...

Somebody at my school has a bumper sticker that says, "Evolution is just a theory.... Kind of like gravity."


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## ericschevy

LOL, I like that..
Well, I'm out. Going to bed..


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## buzhunter

smokey_joe said:


> I just love talking about this kind of stuff...
> 
> Somebody at my school has a bumper sticker that says, "Evolution is just a theory.... Kind of like gravity."


All points of veiw regarding this topic are only theory, even intelligent design. The fact is that nobody knows and it's all just speculation. The difference between science and religion is that religion is faith based and science is based on facts. This, IMO would explain the decline in belief in the world of scientists. The more we come to understand about the planet, the more illogical the intelligent design theory becomes. Speaking of dinosaurs, where were they in the Bible? Did someone just happen to "forget" about the gigantic reptiles that roamed the earth for millions of years? Hardly an insignificant "creation" wouldn't you agree?


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## MY MIKADO

This is a great subject and I'm glad that we are keeping our tempers in check. I don't know about dinosuars in the bible but my mom had this realy old bible and unicorns were mentioned in it. I can't rember the book but it now says something like from the "horn of th beast" and in this one it said the "the horn of the unicorn". I wish we still had that bible but the basement flooded and we lost everything that was in storage down there.

Buz I think that I'm entitled to health care kust as much as anyone else. I work hard I have since I was thirteen. I have no health care for either myself or my son. I have no idea what i would do if he ever got really ill. I guess we just die. I work 5 sometimes 6 days a week and I don't make enough to make ends meet. Maybe if I made more per hour but this society doesn't value the lower end workers. Where would everyone be if we had no one to check out all the stuff you buy or the waitress the garbage hauler. Why should some CEO that probably was born into the family make x amount of dollars and we clean up their shit and only make pennies. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.


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## buzhunter

Yeah, I hear you. It's hard as hell. We went without healthcare for years and paid cash for what we could and we are still in debt up to our necks because of it. But you know, socialized healthcare is a double edged sword. It essentially splits the rich and poor to an even greater extent because you won't be able to afford the "good" care. You will have to settle for "economy" healthcare while the rich can afford to pay for the proper care. It sucks. I really lucked out landing the job I did because I got a great plan for my entire family at a cheap price. I have to thank the rich guy who owns the company for that benefit. Sure, I make crap for money but the insurance alone is worth about 1500.00 a month and I think I pay somewhere in the neighborhood of 300.00 of that. I can't complain. I got this job because I busted my ass in the past to learn the skills I needed. Now I'm in a pretty good position as far as job security goes but if they start taking from the rich, I'll lose my job because it won't be worth his time or effort to stay in buisness. Or I guess he could always move the buisness out of the country and the 
Chinese can do it. LOL. Either way, I think the rich guy is the guy providing the jobs, even if they are shit. If he goes out of buisness, we lose our jobs. If we lose our jobs we can't buy things and the checkers lose their jobs. It's a very delicate balance that we all depend on. But I do hear you, girl. Life's a bitch and if you aren't born with a few advantages you will work your ass off your whole life. I say who cares. I was born poor, always been poor, and I'm getting pretty damn good at it. LOL


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## smokey_joe

In a perfect economy, there would be no money. People would work to provide things the community needed and if you did not contribute you did not eat. That way, everyone could do what they loved to do. We would still have teachers, doctors, all positions that we have right now. The only difference would be that money would not control the economy. But, the world does not work that way and it never will.

Giants are mentioned in the Bible, and some have intrepreted that to mean dinosaurs. But, men did not live with dinosaurs. Dinosaurs died 65 million years ago. Men (homosapiens) have only been around for a couple hundred thousand years. If we lived with dinosaurs, we would not be the race we are now. We'd be too busy trying not to get eaten!!!


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## MY MIKADO

Yes it is a delicate balance but the rich will alway have the money to buy stuff even if they move their company to another country. I just do see how socialized health care is bad. Yes I understand it as i live in an area where there is Indian Health Service and yes it is poor but if they don't know the answer you can get transfered out and it is still paid for. I guess i would rather have a chance at being able to go to the doctor if the need arose rather than saying I'm sorry son I don't have the money to treat ________ whatever. I"m lucky he is healthy. I couldn't afford 300.00 a month for health care as I only make $700- $800 a month as it is. I could get insurance at work but it would cost me around $125.00 a pay period. Life sucks. Well on that happy note I'm going to bed.


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## buzhunter

smokey_joe said:


> Giants are mentioned in the Bible, and some have intrepreted that to mean dinosaurs. But, men did not live with dinosaurs. Dinosaurs died 65 million years ago. Men (homosapiens) have only been around for a couple hundred thousand years. If we lived with dinosaurs, we would not be the race we are now. We'd be too busy trying not to get eaten!!!


I understand that giants are mentioned in the Bible but what I don't understand is how the Bible explains that God created the heavens and the earth wouldn't you think that they could point out that he created huge reptiles??? If I was writing about all of God's great accomplishments I think I would definitely mention that on one of those infamous days he created dinosaurs. lol What I find to be odd is that the Bible was written before the discovery of dinosaurs but after the "creation" of them and they are not mentioned aside form a vague mention of "giants" which would probably be related to David and Goliath. I think that the bible was probably written by extremely intelligent people with a great knack for predicting human nature, The only problem is that they did not know everything that we would figure out for ourselves. I guess that's why it is so easliy "interpereted". How convenient. LOL.


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## smokey_joe

Here's a website about dinosaurs in the Bible:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Docs/2.asp

I don't believe that men and dinosaurs lived together. The Genisis account of creation could mean the creation of the world as WE know it, or a reformation.

Genisis says that in the _beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Beginning of what? Beginning of everything? Beginning of life as we know it? Then in verse two, the Bible says "And the earth was without form, and void.." (This could also be interpeted a lot of ways. Void of human life? Void of all life? Void of love?) If you read the accounts of Genisis, it does follow the evolutionists' model of life formation. First came the light, then the land and the sea, then the plants, then the sea creatures, then the land dwellers. On the sixth day, God created man. According to evolutionists, there have been five great mass extinctions (five days before mankind)? I guess it all comes down to what a day is to God. If God knows no time, how can a man answer this question?

I don't know, but I'm going to bed now, too. It's been real and I'll talk to you guys tomorrow._


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## smokey_joe

Why would the Bible mention dinosaurs in particular? It says God created all things. There have been a lot of things on this Earth since "creation." There have been a lot of things die out since "creation." Why mention one creation in particular? To us, dinosaurs are a huge mystery, they're not anything necessarily special to God.


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## ericschevy

Do you see how people can read the same bible yet interpret it differently?


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## buzhunter

smokey_joe said:


> Why would the Bible mention dinosaurs in particular? It says God created all things. There have been a lot of things on this Earth since "creation." There have been a lot of things die out since "creation." Why mention one creation in particular? To us, dinosaurs are a huge mystery, they're not anything necessarily special to God.


Well, I ask because with all of the significant things that occured back then, I would just imagine that living among dinosaurs could also be significant. It would probably be pretty difficult to avoid at least a story or two that modern people could undoubtedly relate to dinosaurs. But if you don't believe that we co-existed with them then I could see how it was easily overlooked or unknown. Either way, all very interesting stuff to say the least. I doubt we will make any huge breakthroughs in the big question of existence here on GP. LOL. But great discussion either way.
You guys are full of knowledge.


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## buzhunter

ericschevy said:


> Do you see how people can read the same bible yet interpret it differently?


Yeah, reminds me of how kids can hear exactly what you tell them, yet they still say "I thought you meant...". 
I wonder if that will work on "judgement day" LOL
Guess there's only one way to find out.


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## ericschevy

buzhunter said:


> Yeah, reminds me of how kids can hear exactly what you tell them, yet they still say "I thought you meant...".
> I wonder if that will work on "judgement day" LOL
> Guess there's only one way to find out.


LMAO, I just may have to try that..LOL


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## ericschevy

smokey_joe said:


> In a perfect economy, there would be no money. People would work to provide things the community needed and if you did not contribute you did not eat. That way, everyone could do what they loved to do. We would still have teachers, doctors, all positions that we have right now. The only difference would be that money would not control the economy. But, the world does not work that way and it never will.
> 
> Giants are mentioned in the Bible, and some have intrepreted that to mean dinosaurs. But, men did not live with dinosaurs. Dinosaurs died 65 million years ago. Men (homosapiens) have only been around for a couple hundred thousand years. If we lived with dinosaurs, we would not be the race we are now. We'd be too busy trying not to get eaten!!!


A COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND? I though the oldest human remains were 11 thousand.


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## ericschevy

WOW, I was way off..LOL It's 160 thousand years.


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## MY MIKADO

The Bible was written by men that were really old and had to remember what happen way back then. It is like they sat down every night and wrote stuff down in a diary. So actually there is no way to tell if any of the stories are acurate or not. I guess this is why I have trouble putting so much stock in one book.


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## smokey_joe

ericschevy said:


> WOW, I was way off..LOL It's 160 thousand years.


I was off too, that was a guesstimate. I couldn't remember exactly how long at the time, but I knew it was nowhere near millions.


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## OldFortKennels

Ok let me if you will give my thoughts and beliefs on this topic. I am a Conservative Christian, I guess thats how I would be labled today. I believe in God and the Bible. That said let me try and answer some of these questions from my understanding.

First and foremost the main underlying reason many if not most scientist chose to belive the THEORY of Evolution over Creation is that to accept Creation is to acknowledge there is a GOD. In doing so, you acknowledge the Bible as true and consequently would mean accepting the reality of Heaven and Hell.

Creation as I believe it

http://ebible.org/bible/kjv/

Ok dont take this personal as I am just giving answers to your comments according to MY beliefs and you can read and make your own conclusions ok.
NOT ATTACKING!!! Please understand that ok.



> Thanks, man. But I'm still well aware that I may be the dumbest SOB on the face of the earth, LOL. I just call it like I see it and if God is real, and I am doomed to an eternity in hell, well all I can say is that I hope he takes into account the fact that I just don't know any better. LOL





> The only way you are doomed to hell is thru the unpardonable sin.
> __________________
> 
> You dont have to do anything to go to hell. We are born with a sin nature due to the fall of man, (fall from grace) in the Garden of Eden.
> 
> Genesis 3 1-24
> 
> 
> 
> 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
> 
> 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Click to expand...

 Blue----The first LIE
RED--- The first sin, resulting in the separation of GOD and Man, the fall of man and why we now need restetution to God.

Ok this in the New Testament refering back to the creation


> Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned


The condition of Man



> Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


The way the harmony between man and God is restored is through Salvation. If you study the OLD TESTAMENT sacrafices, consisting of a Lamb, were made often to restore man to God when man would sin. Ok, the New Testament tells us that God offered his son as a living sacraficial lamb so that there was no need for future sacrafices. The Son of God was the final sacrafice and if we accept that, confess our sin nature, and recognize the need for God, that He did indeed die and rise again on the third day and accept HIM as our personal Lord and Saviour, then we are restored to God.



> I believe that if there is a God that he will appreciate my honesty. Aside from my foul mouth, LOL, I've never met a Christian who did not mistake me for a "good Christian". I also believe that God, if he does exist, knows our intentions and our hearts better than we do, no matter what we show on the outside.


According to the Bible there is only one way to Heaven

Ephesians 2:8-9


> 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.





> John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Romans 10: 9-11


> 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Im not a radical by any means, I have my beliefs and understand others dont share my same views. Thats fine, I will not try and force my views on anyone. However I like debate, its interesting so if anyone has any questions about anything and would like MY OPINION or view on it ask and I would love to discuss it, its fun to research and think about things.


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## OldFortKennels

For those interested in the Creation vs Evolution this guy, Kent Hovind does a good job of explaining the creation side of things. If you youtube more videos do Kent Hovind Debates in the search or you will get all kinds of videos that have nothing to do with the debates. I do believe he is in jail now for tax evasion, which I dont approve of, we should all pay taxes. Also he is widely presecuted due to his strong debates against evolution so there is tons of material on you tube negative towards him and his character. Ok,

However if you just look at the debates its very interesting

this one is good, but the video quality is not great

Let it load as its long, about mintue 28:50 the Creation side begins to be discussed.






I will go ahead and tell you there is alot of negative press coming from anyone who does not like him so just letting you know. However I think from the debate of EVO vs Creation its pretty good and interesting


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## OldFortKennels

YOu can download these also

http://drdino.com/downloads.php

I found this interesting, its Ben Stien

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=Ben+stein+on+evolution&search_type=


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## ericschevy

Did you see the one I originally posted Andy? It's the most straight forward approach I have seen.

"You dont have to do anything to go to hell. We are born with a sin nature due to the fall of man, (fall from grace) in the Garden of Eden."
Ain't that why you get baptised?


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## ericschevy

"First and foremost the main underlying reason many if not most scientist chose to belive the THEORY of Evolution over Creation is that to accept Creation is to acknowledge there is a GOD. In doing so, you acknowledge the Bible as true and consequently would mean accepting the reality of Heaven and Hell. "

YOU ARE ABSOULUTELY RIGHT!!!!
Oddly enough they will still reference the Bible. Ain't that crazy?
I find that as odd a those who don't acknowledge Christ yet acknowledge his enemy..


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## ericschevy

MY MIKADO said:


> The Bible was written by men that were really old and had to remember what happen way back then. It is like they sat down every night and wrote stuff down in a diary. So actually there is no way to tell if any of the stories are acurate or not. I guess this is why I have trouble putting so much stock in one book.


That's completely understandable however it's not like they were sitting around scratching their heads. These stories were passed down by generation by believe it or not, Knowledgeable scholars of the time. They had nothing to gain from falsifying anything. That being said, it's also understandable that things could of been lost or forgotten. Example, It's already been proven that Noah's ark couldn't of possibly been as big as it was.


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## OldFortKennels

> Originally Posted by MY MIKADO
> The Bible was written by men that were really old and had to remember what happen way back then. It is like they sat down every night and wrote stuff down in a diary. So actually there is no way to tell if any of the stories are acurate or not. I guess this is why I have trouble putting so much stock in one book.
> 
> That's completely understandable however it's not like they were sitting around scratching their heads. These stories were passed down by generation by believe it or not, Knowledgeable scholars of the time. They had nothing to gain from falsifying anything. That being said, it's also understandable that things could of been lost or forgotten. Example, It's already been proven that Noah's ark couldn't of possibly been as big as it was.


Actually I believe in the doctrine of divine insperation of the Bible. In other words while the words in the Bible were pinned by man, they were told what to write or inspired to write from God.



> The Bible addresses this in
> 2 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version)
> New International Version (NIV)
> Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
> 
> 20.Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21.For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit





> "You dont have to do anything to go to hell. We are born with a sin nature due to the fall of man, (fall from grace) in the Garden of Eden."
> Ain't that why you get baptised?
> __________________


Actually baptism has nothing to do with salvation. We are restored to God through His Son, by accepting Him. Baptism is the first step in obedience of the believer. Its symbolically identifying yourself with Christ. This is why I belive in Baptism by immersion not sprinkling as the Catholic Church does. When you are bapitsed and go under the water and come back up its symbolic of the Death, Burial and Ressurection of Jesus.


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## buzhunter

Here's a question. Why Christianity? How do you decide which of the 2000 and something religions to base your entire life on? Don't say faith, LOL.


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## smokey_joe

buzhunter said:


> Here's a question. Why Christianity? How do you decide which of the 2000 and something religions to base your entire life on? Don't say faith, LOL.


For me, it's because it's what I've been taught and what I believe. When I hear about Jesus and God, I believe it in my heart. I feel in my heart that it is true. I don't have that feeling with other religions. Maybe if I grew up in India, my beliefs would be very different.


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## smokey_joe

MY MIKADO said:


> The Bible was written by men that were really old and had to remember what happen way back then. It is like they sat down every night and wrote stuff down in a diary. So actually there is no way to tell if any of the stories are acurate or not. I guess this is why I have trouble putting so much stock in one book.


I saw this on a church sign:

"The Bible is full of mistakes....

And God loved every one of them."


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## buzhunter

smokey_joe said:


> For me, it's because it's what I've been taught and what I believe. When I hear about Jesus and God, I believe it in my heart. I feel in my heart that it is true. I don't have that feeling with other religions. Maybe if I grew up in India, my beliefs would be very different.


Do you ever wonder if you are on the wrong path? I'm sure questioning faith is a part of faith, but what I mean is do you ever wonder if you should be praying to Allah instead of accepting Jesus? (just an example) It would seem to me that a lot of people are going to hell only for not believing that Jesus is the son of God, when they may very well be perfect in the eyes of their own religion. We see the suicide bombers and the radical muslims as rediculous and mislead. We see them as killers and sinners. Yet in their belief system, they are guaranteed everlasting paradise for their actions. Are they wrong? It's what they believe in their hearts? Speaking of India, don't Hindus worship the cow? If they are right, a lot of people are doing some crazy stuff to their idol. LOL

Again, great discussion. Glad to see you got in Old Fort. You obviously know your stuff too.


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## ericschevy

"Actually baptism has nothing to do with salvation. We are restored to God through His Son, by accepting Him. Baptism is the first step in obedience of the believer. Its symbolically identifying yourself with Christ. This is why I belive in Baptism by immersion not sprinkling as the Catholic Church does. When you are bapitsed and go under the water and come back up its symbolic of the Death, Burial and Ressurection of Jesus."

I guess it depends on your interpretation,

Jews baptized proselytes.[1] The periodically repeated Jewish purification rite of mikvah is not normally spoken of as baptism, largely because of the Christian associations of the word "baptism". John the Baptist baptized for the forgiveness of sins,[1] baptizing Jesus[2] and many others. Jesus did not baptize as part of his ministry.[1][3] In Matthew, the resurrected Jesus commands his disciples to baptize (see Great Commission). The Gospel of John says that Jesus baptized,[4] but adds that "Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples."[5] Clement of Alexandria reports that at the end of the second century it was believed that Jesus personally baptized Saint Peter.[


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## ericschevy

buzhunter said:


> Here's a question. Why Christianity? How do you decide which of the 2000 and something religions to base your entire life on? Don't say faith, LOL.


Well I can't speak for everyone but I don't "Choose".
I may be classified as a christian due some of my beliefs but technically I'm not.
I'm just a spiritual man who believes in an almighty god and that Jesus is my lord and saviour.
One must remember that there is a difference between being spiritual and religious.


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## ericschevy

It's just what I find to be true and it's what makes sence to me.
Evolution does not.


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## OldFortKennels

Very good, Im really impressed Eric!! Conversations like these bring out things in people I would have never suspected over the internet.


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## ericschevy

I'm a decent man when you get to know me....LOL
You are all good people too, believers or not..


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## wheezie

im not a very religous or spiritual person, ive been to tons of churches and attended a mosque for a while. nothing ever truly moved me or pushed doubt out of my mind.


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## smokey_joe

buzhunter said:


> Do you ever wonder if you are on the wrong path? I'm sure questioning faith is a part of faith, but what I mean is do you ever wonder if you should be praying to Allah instead of accepting Jesus? (just an example) It would seem to me that a lot of people are going to hell only for not believing that Jesus is the son of God, when they may very well be perfect in the eyes of their own religion. We see the suicide bombers and the radical muslims as rediculous and mislead. We see them as killers and sinners. Yet in their belief system, they are guaranteed everlasting paradise for their actions. Are they wrong? It's what they believe in their hearts? Speaking of India, don't Hindus worship the cow? If they are right, a lot of people are doing some crazy stuff to their idol. LOL
> 
> Again, great discussion. Glad to see you got in Old Fort. You obviously know your stuff too.


Oh, Lord, yes. I wouldn't be human if I didn't ask things like that. There is no way to know for SURE without a DOUBT that what I believe is exactly right. I sure as heck can't call anyone else wrong, I just believe what I believe.

Here's how the Hindu cow thing was explained to me: They look at the cow as a source of life. The cow gives nourishing milk. To kill a cow is like killing a "mother." They don't really "worship" cows, but they do see them as "holy?" I don't really get it, but hey to each their own.


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## buzhunter

OldFortKennels said:


> Conversations like these bring out things in people I would have never suspected over the internet.


People are full of surprises. You never know until you scratch the surface.


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## MY MIKADO

All I can say is that you guys are doing a great job at keeping this civil!!!!

Okay I hear ya Andy that maybe those guys were moved or give Spiritual guidence to write the Bible. But You know for a fact that I can tell you something and when you tell someone else the story wont to word for word what I said and down through the ages of the stories being told they will change especially when laguage changess. I'm of the Native American decent and there are some really old stories out there about creation and how things came to be as being Ojibwe we are an orally group it is hard to havea written languge when everything is name as a discription. So I know that I have heard the creation sorie told by four different men and four times the storie was close but not exactly the way i heard it the other time. So I think that thatible is the same way. My opinion. 

Eric if you believe in Jesus and Jehovah then you are a christian. 

To me the Bible is full of good stories. i have used some of them in raising my son. I just don't believe that it is the only answer. I have trouble saying that the Bible is the gossiple truth and Geek or Norse Gods and Goddess are myth. I mean those stories have been passed on down through the ages too and their stories make sence also. 

To each their own. Thanks eric for bringing up a great topic.


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## buzhunter

MY MIKADO said:


> To me the Bible is full of good stories. i have used some of them in raising my son. I just don't believe that it is the only answer.


Well said, Sharon. A lot of the stories and morals in the Bible are right in tune with what I belive to be the way to live and raise kids. It's a decent way of life in most aspects. My wife is a "God fearing" Christian and my kids are all believers. I think it's a good thing.


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## MY MIKADO

Yep faith is the backbone to what you are. My son doesn't believe in Jesus as a god but he loves some of the stories in the Bible. Psalms 23 is his favorite. He wants to see a movie of the ten commanments but all I have found around town were animated ones. I might have to buy off the internet. 

Another point to make is that if you want your children to be moral the Bible is a good place to start. I think that in this day and age it is hard to have a good solid moral compass. All I can do is teach by example.


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## wheezie

ive been to dozens of churchs and atended a mosque for a while. I find it very interesting to explore other religons and denomintaions. I cant say i do or dont believe in god. but i can say i am very skeptical on many aspects of any organized religon.


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## MY MIKADO

wheezie said:


> ive been to dozens of churchs and atended a mosque for a while. I find it very interesting to explore other religons and denomintaions. I cant say i do or dont believe in god. but i can say i am very skeptical on many aspects of any organized religon.


I too have studied a great number of religions. I have found nothing that feels totally right. I'm sure that there must be a God or Godess or both but I think that they have turned their back on us. I mean how else to acount for all the missery in life okay adult men and women can fend for themselves but why would a loving being allow such hateful thing happen to his/her children or the old people. I have trouble with that. I know alot of people pray for all sorts of things but really are any answered. Thing work out for me and I have never prayed I figure if god is all knowing he/she knows what I need and will provide it why do I have to ask.

So many questions and never enough answers. I guess we will find out in the end. Which I believe are spirits go on living and maybe we even comeback as a different life form.


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## ericschevy

MY MIKADO said:


> All I can say is that you guys are doing a great job at keeping this civil!!!!
> 
> Okay I hear ya Andy that maybe those guys were moved or give Spiritual guidence to write the Bible. But You know for a fact that I can tell you something and when you tell someone else the story wont to word for word what I said and down through the ages of the stories being told they will change especially when laguage changess. I'm of the Native American decent and there are some really old stories out there about creation and how things came to be as being Ojibwe we are an orally group it is hard to havea written languge when everything is name as a discription. So I know that I have heard the creation sorie told by four different men and four times the storie was close but not exactly the way i heard it the other time. So I think that thatible is the same way. My opinion.
> 
> Eric if you believe in Jesus and Jehovah then you are a christian.
> 
> To me the Bible is full of good stories. i have used some of them in raising my son. I just don't believe that it is the only answer. I have trouble saying that the Bible is the gossiple truth and Geek or Norse Gods and Goddess are myth. I mean those stories have been passed on down through the ages too and their stories make sence also.
> 
> To each their own. Thanks eric for bringing up a great topic.


Why not Catholic? They do too.


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## ericschevy

wheezie said:


> ive been to dozens of churchs and atended a mosque for a while. I find it very interesting to explore other religons and denomintaions. I cant say i do or dont believe in god. but i can say i am very skeptical on many aspects of any organized religon.


That's when you just remain spiritual..LOL


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## MY MIKADO

If I'm understanding you right Eric you are asking why you are not called a catholic? Will do you go to the catholic church? Any religion that worships Jesus and Jehovah are christains. You could be baptist or luthern or what ever but you are still a christain.


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## ericschevy

I've never been to church.
Oh I see..


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## Ashelee

ok so I SO did not read hardly any posts on this so if it was said already, terribly sorry haha. I personally believe in both God and evolution. I believe God created the first organism so that it would evolve into many different things. So that first organism evolved into every living thing we see today. And no domesticated dogs arent a form of evolution, we domesticated wild dogs/wolves to become our companions/helping us work etc.


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## ericschevy

Ashelee said:


> ok so I SO did not read hardly any posts on this so if it was said already, terribly sorry haha. I personally believe in both God and evolution. I believe God created the first organism so that it would evolve into many different things. So that first organism evolved into every living thing we see today. "And no domesticated dogs arent a form of evolution", we domesticated wild dogs/wolves to become our companions/helping us work etc.


I agree.:clap:


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## smokey_joe

MY MIKADO said:


> I too have studied a great number of religions. I have found nothing that feels totally right. I'm sure that there must be a God or Godess or both but I think that they have turned their back on us. I mean how else to acount for all the missery in life okay adult men and women can fend for themselves but why would a loving being allow such hateful thing happen to his/her children or the old people. I have trouble with that. I know alot of people pray for all sorts of things but really are any answered. Thing work out for me and I have never prayed I figure if god is all knowing he/she knows what I need and will provide it why do I have to ask.
> 
> So many questions and never enough answers. I guess we will find out in the end. Which I believe are spirits go on living and maybe we even comeback as a different life form.


Men are the reason for misery on the earth, not God. MAN created money, MAN is the reason people are poor. MAN is the reason people are starving, we should be feeding them. MAN does the murdering, raping, stealing, hurting. Diseases are not necissarily ALL MAN'S fault, but there are things we bring on ourselves or make worse. I believe a few diseases are actually man made. If people only had sex with the person they married, then aids and other STD's would be greatly reduced. I'm a smoker, when I get cancer in about 10 years I can't cry to God about it, that's my own fault.

God also sends us hardships to "test" our faith. He knows that anything we go through on this earth is short lived, and He gives us nothing that we can't handle. He himself, Jesus Christ, God incarnate, came to this eath and suffered on a cross. He's no stranger to the pain we feel.


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## buzhunter

Ashelee said:


> And no domesticated dogs arent a form of evolution, we domesticated wild dogs/wolves to become our companions/helping us work etc.


They aren't? I disagree. Imo, whatever form or shape any living thing exists in today is the product of the species evolving to that state. In wild animals factors like environment, and useful mutations decide the path. In domesticated dogs we decide the path. Only the contributing factors are different. The process and the concept are the same. Look at the APBT. It is still evolving as we speak. The statement "form follows function" is not only for the show ring. If you think about it, every living thing on this planet is subject to that philosophy.


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## ericschevy

I have always been under the impression that evolution happens on it's own, the whole reason we are even discussing this..LOL:angel:


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## buzhunter

I guess it all depends on what you consider "on it's own". It does occur with and without human intervention. We have figured out how to speed the process dramatically. Example - dogs. We have also trumped the most important fundamental of the process - survival of the fittest. Look at us. We have evolved into a species that is so depenant on technology that we cannot survive without it. How many people would die without medical technology? Most. How many animals can survive without it? The wild ones. We are the only species that has made it possible for the weak to survive. Doesn't it say something in the Bible about the weak inheriting the earth?


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## ericschevy

Nope, it says the "Meek" shall inherit the earth.
Being meek and weak don't necessarily go hand in hand.
I had always thought it was "Weak" too.

Psalms 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
Psalms 25:12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth. 
Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. 
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off. 
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


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## ericschevy

Yall wanna know how the lord works? Guess who showed up at my door today.


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## smokey_joe

ericschevy said:


> Yall wanna know how the lord works? Guess who showed up at my door today.


Jessica Simpson????


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## ericschevy

Boy do I wish!!!..LMAO
I was just telling Andy that depending on your interpretation, you get Baptized to cleanse yourself of sin. Then later I was telling Sharon that I've never been to church. So today, yup, you guessed it. A recruiter from the local Baptist church showed up wanting me to join.
Do we just dismiss this as coincidence? LMAO :welcome:


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## smokey_joe

ericschevy said:


> Boy do I wish!!!..LMAO
> I was just telling Andy that depending on your interpretation, you get Baptized to cleanse yourself of sin. Then later I was telling Sharon that I've never been to church. So today, yup, you guessed it. A recruiter from the local Baptist church showed up wanting me to join.
> Do we just dismiss this as coincidence? LMAO :welcome:


A local Baptist church stopped by the other day to invite me to a revival. I've lived here for 6 years, and that's the first time someone from church has been here. I didn't think too much about it, but it is weird considering the discussion we've been having...


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## buzhunter

...and I thought the earthquake we had was kinda ironic. LOL


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## MY MIKADO

Maybe the end of the world is coming a little sooner than we thought. 

I use to have the Jehovah Witness's come around all the time. The last time they were here I told them I was pagen and that if they really wanted to believe the Bible then go home and study it but that they should live by the words of it instead kicking people out of church for crazy things. And where the he!! were they when my brother was reaching out to them. They shut the door in his face and he ended up taking his own life. What the heck kind of church are you!!!! They have not been back.


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## ericschevy

MY MIKADO said:


> Maybe the end of the world is coming a little sooner than we thought.
> 
> I use to have the Jehovah Witness's come around all the time. The last time they were here I told them I was pagen and that if they really wanted to believe the Bible then go home and study it but that they should live by the words of it instead kicking people out of church for crazy things. And where the he!! were they when my brother was reaching out to them. They shut the door in his face and he ended up taking his own life. What the heck kind of church are you!!!! They have not been back.


I don't understand why they don't celebrate any holidays, that's strange.


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## ericschevy

buzhunter said:


> ...and I thought the earthquake we had was kinda ironic. LOL


We had one too, IN MICHIGAN! That's unheard of.


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## ericschevy

smokey_joe said:


> A local Baptist church stopped by the other day to invite me to a revival. I've lived here for 6 years, and that's the first time someone from church has been here. I didn't think too much about it, but it is weird considering the discussion we've been having...


Coincidence right?


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## MY MIKADO

The reaso they don't celebrate holiday is beacuse all holidays were started to get pagens in church. It isn't the true meaning for the celebration. The honor the season they just don't get into the pagan ritualistic part of it.


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## NesOne

MY MIKADO said:


> He wants to see a movie of the ten commanments but all I have found around town were animated ones. I might have to buy off the internet.


No need to buy, just click on this link, and he can watch it right off the computer: http://www.watch-movies.net/movies/the_ten_commandments/

And many other movies for that matter.


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## OldFortKennels

> I use to have the Jehovah Witness's come around all the time.


Yeah we did to until my dad, who is a preacher, invited them in and began to talk to the. One of the two began to get interested in what Dad was saying and the other guy yanked him out of there, Never been back.

By they way anyone ever notice how most, at least down here, of their churches dont have windows????


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## ericschevy

OldFortKennels said:


> Yeah we did to until my dad, who is a preacher, invited them in and began to talk to the. One of the two began to get interested in what Dad was saying and the other guy yanked him out of there, Never been back.
> 
> By they way anyone ever notice how most, at least down here, of their churches dont have windows????


That's too funny..:rofl: Yeah, There's one across the street from my credit union and it don't have any windows..


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## MetalGirl30

buzhunter said:


> I think that this is the reason the creationists believe what they do - because they need to know why. I don't feel a need to understand the meaning of life. To me it's irrelevant. All I need to do in this lifetime is survive and hopefully pass on knowledge to my kids that will aid in their survival.


I agree, there are some things in this world you will never find an answer to. People spend to much time analizing and not living. I do not believe that we came from monkeys and evolved into what we are now. Am I a christian, no, but I do believe in fate, murphy's law(lol), and have strong morals and values. I believe alot of people live what they learn. Say you have generations of alcoholics in your family. Are you going to be one just b/c it is in your family. No, it is a choice. Like life, you choose how to live your life. Evolution is apart of nature, a neverending path of life. As long as man has a brain, and the world is still standing evolution will take place. Evolution is a constant and inevitable change of life, species,etc. Man is constantly trying to evolve into something better, stronger, faster. The same thing we try to dog when breeding dogs. We are looking for what would make the species better.


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## buzhunter

Good post. I'm not sure what man is trying to evolve into. We are definitely becoming a species that defies the laws of nature. Not good. Anyway, on another note - you mentioned Murphy's law. We have a saying in my family: "Murphy was an optimist". LOL, just thought I'd share that.


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## MY MIKADO

Say you have generations of alcoholics in your family. Are you going to be one just b/c it is in your family. No, it is a choice

I just would like to mention that yes you do have a better chance of becoming an alochloic if your parents and grandparents suffered from this. My dad had a drinking problem and two of my brothers have the same problem my sister can not have one drink because she will not stop. It isn't a choice it is something in your system. I have told my son that he had best refrain from drinking because it is on both sides of his family. Native Americans do have a harder time controlling their urges to drink.


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## buzhunter

MY MIKADO said:


> Native Americans do have a harder time controlling their urges to drink.


I've heard that before. Any clue as to why that is?


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## MY MIKADO

It has something to do with genetics. NA don't have the proper gene to break down alcohol so it like builds up in their system. 

Alcohol is metabolized principally in the liver, where it is converted first to acetaldehyde by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase. Acetaldehyde is then converted to acetate by the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase. Acetaldehyde produces unpleasant physiological reactions even at low concentration, so the presence or absence of the gene mutation affecting aldehyde dehydrogenase in turn affects drinking behaviors. When acetaldehyde is not rapidly converted to acetate the results are dramatic: a rapid increase in blood flow to the skin of the face, neck, and chest, rapid heartbeat, headache, nausea, and extreme drowsiness occur. "

I copied the above paragraph. NA don't metabolize alcohol the same way so they don't have the adverse effects. It is a shame it was ever introduced to them.


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