# Should the dog-aggression be bred out?



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

So yes, this is another poll stemming from the dog park discussions. In light of how many folks take their dogs to the dog park, I'm curious to get a general consensus on this one as well.

The question is: Do you think APBT breeders should actively be working to breed the dog-aggression (DA) out of the breed? If you want to elaborate with a post, please feel free to do so. Might make for interesting discussion.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

My answer is No if you want a non-aggressive dog in close relation to the apbt get an american staffordshire terrier. The apbt is a result of many years of selective breeding. I don't think it's right to destroy years of dedication to this breed because man wants to eliminate part of what these dogs were intended to be. That's selfish and foolish Leave it to man to start picking apart the breed to try and fix what's not broken going against everything it was intended to be you then have a new creation with no purpose.


----------



## Coletrain (Oct 26, 2008)

I think the DA should be bred out. Most people see a dog with DA as a killer and fail to understand just how great this breed actually is. Everyone who I have ever talked to link DA and HA and it seems like I can talk til I am blue in the face and it won't change their minds. Those two will always be linked together. I tell them to spend 5 minutes in my house and they will understand that this breed is just a 35lb+ lap dog and all they want to do is please their owners. If we eliminate DA then maybe, just maybe, people will start to see what great family pets the APBT are and all the negativity surrounding the breed could come to a halt.


----------



## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

No, if you can't handle the DA dog then get an AM staff that's how they were breed.


----------



## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" (Aug 7, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> My answer is No if you want a non-aggressive dog in close relation to the apbt get an american staffordshire terrier. The apbt is a result of many years of selective breeding. I don't think it's right to destroy years of dedication to this breed because man wants to eliminate part of what these dogs were intended to be. That's selfish and foolish Leave it to man to start picking apart the breed to try and fix what's not broken going against everything it was intended to be and you now have a new creation with no purpose.


You obviously have more experience than me in all of this, but wasn't the dog aggression bred into them for sporting purposes? I've seen a couple of documentaries on dog fighting, but have never seen one in person and I can say it's inhumane and kind of disgusting from what I've seen.

Can the relentless "never give up" trait still exist in other sporting activities if the dog aggression is bred out? If not, then I say let it stay because I do believe that that is a trait that significantly separates these dogs from other breeds.

Is that hypocritical? If it is, it's not intentional.. just inexperienced is all.:angel:


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" said:


> You obviously have more experience than me in all of this, but wasn't the dog aggression bred into them for sporting purposes? I've seen a couple of documentaries on dog fighting, but have never seen one in person and I can say it's inhumane and kind of disgusting from what I've seen.
> 
> Can the relentless "never give up" trait still exist in other sporting activities if the dog aggression is bred out? If not, then I say let it stay because I do believe that that is a trait that significantly separates these dogs from other breeds.
> 
> Is that hypocritical? If it is, it's not intentional.. just inexperienced is all.:angel:


The sport itself is very disturbing to me more so the act of violence that goes along with it. While I would never fight my own dogs I accept the sport for what it was intended to be in those days when it was legal to fight dogs. Dog aggression should not be confused with gameness that willingness to never quit in a dog match those are two different traits. Breeding for gameness is pointless unless your a dogfighter dog aggression was just another trait bred into the breed when creating the ultimate fighting bulldog and this trait has carried on in the breed today now preserving gameness would be a different subject with these dogs in order to preserve gameness you would have to be breeding for gameness and testing dogs for gameness the way a dogman would test for it by rolling or matching the dog. For our breed today because they are still working dogs I think breeding for drive would be a more appropriate trait rather than gameness obviously a dog with extreme drive will still have that will power to complete any task at hand. You can still have an aggressive apbt with extreme drive that will preform at any given task without gameness .. gameness is a trait that would only be found in a pit dog aka fighting dog and should not be confused with drive, or dog aggression. Hope that helps.


----------



## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se (Sep 15, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> My answer is No if you want a non-aggressive dog in close relation to the apbt get an american staffordshire terrier. The apbt is a result of many years of selective breeding. I don't think it's right to destroy years of dedication to this breed because man wants to eliminate part of what these dogs were intended to be. That's selfish and foolish Leave it to man to start picking apart the breed to try and fix what's not broken going against everything it was intended to be you then have a new creation with no purpose.


i agree!:goodpost:

i think things were created as they are and there is no reason to change that. if you cant handle the dog, put your pride aside and get a different breed. Of course you have men that wont walk a poodle, but hey maybe thats the best choice.



Coletrain said:


> I think the DA should be bred out. Most people see a dog with DA as a killer and fail to understand just how great this breed actually is. Everyone who I have ever talked to link DA and HA and it seems like I can talk til I am blue in the face and it won't change their minds. Those two will always be linked together. I tell them to spend 5 minutes in my house and they will understand that this breed is just a 35lb+ lap dog and all they want to do is please their owners. If we eliminate DA then maybe, just maybe, people will start to see what great family pets the APBT are and all the negativity surrounding the breed could come to a halt.


im sorry to say this but i really dont think taking DA is going to change how america already perceives these dogs. they have had this bad rap for many years, and it probably wont change for a long long time. breeding DA may change it but far after you and i are gone.Pitbulls are initmidating, and just looks scary, people are always going to think bad things about them. if for some reason people decided to breed "the kill" out of moutnain lions or sharks, do u think people will think they are nice animals??? HELL NO if i see a mountain lion chasing me , wether it be for kisses or lunch, im gonna pee on myself. lol.

people just need to educate others as much as possible, and KNOW how to handle their dog. if they are never put in a situation where DA or a fight can break out, then AND ONLY then will people start to "forget" about how vicious they think our sweetie pies are.


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

my answer is a RESOUNDING NO!!!!!

You take it out you changed the dog and you no longer have an APBT. Love it or leave it.


----------



## dan'sgrizz (Oct 22, 2008)

WHOA WHOA WHOA! I VOTE NO! and heres why who said every pit dog was DA? who said every pitbull is DA? Its a fact that many Pit Bulldogs would not show a sign of agression until placed in the []. Most pitbulls will not show a sign of DA until challenged. This is the essance of our breed people, it is the overwhelming instinct to overcome a challenge. Some dogs see challenges in different places. A challenge can be much simpler than a bark it can be a stare or a posture. I feel for the pit bulldog. Never starting a fight but always finishing one, its not a nice place to be it makes you look like a bully. Now even in our own midst people are saying that this dog is agressive. I dont think it to be agro as much as i see a dog that wants to overcome every obstacle it sees. If your dog (any breed) lunges and barks and is agro towards anything but a human. It shoulda been drowned at birth. If your dog loves people and small sweet animals, but goes after other dogs and mostly dogs bigger than him...you probly have a pitbull lol. This thread really makes me sad bahamutt. really really sad man.


----------



## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

it doesn't bother me if they do or don't. a long as their are enthusiast who work, or show their dogs, there will always be people breeding the real thing. i think less people having true game dogs is a good thing. usually if they aren't really breeding them to fight, that particular group, like most of you here, will actually be responsible with who gets the dogs. just don't compare or call your dogs an original gaming line or a game bred dog. maybe they should start calling them "family pits." ha ha


----------



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" said:


> Can the relentless "never give up" trait still exist in other sporting activities if the dog aggression is bred out?


:cheers:

Here, folks, is the reason that I voted NO!!!

Unless you have a PhD in Genetics and have studied molecular, cellular, and structural biology, there is no way to predict which chromosomes effect which genetic trait. The only way to go about that is through trial and error. Why risk it when you already have the perfect dog?

Granted, DA is of no real "USE" to today's society, but there are many breeds of dogs in this world. There should be absolutely no reason for someone to change the breed to fit their lifestyle.

Also, let's say you do believe DA should be bred out of the dog. How would you go about testing if you achieved this? Wouldn't you have to put the dogs in compromising situations? What would happen to a dog that did not suite your breeding program? Basically, we would have a bunch of "Reverse Dog Men." They would have to breed, test, and cull thier dogs, they'd just be culling the wrong ones.


----------



## dan'sgrizz (Oct 22, 2008)

Mr. Bleezy : it doesn't bother me if they do or don't. a long as their are enthusiast who work, or show their dogs, there will always be people breeding the real thing. i think less people having true game dogs is a good thing. usually if they aren't really breeding them to fight, that particular group, like most of you here, will actually be responsible with who gets the dogs. just don't compare or call your dogs an original gaming line or a game bred dog. maybe they should start calling them "family pits." ha ha 


riiiiight....thats what we need more fairweather pit bulldog owners. Man gameness and being game bred dont necessarily mean that the dog would do anything to attack another dog. It means that that particular dog would rather die than give up at its challenge. Its challenge was a dog. Ever heard of a dog pass out of exhaustion because it was allowed to hit the springpole with no one around and would not let go? Thats a game dog to me. It jsut so happened that there gameness was harnessed towards other dogs. I would rather mine harness his towards work but i still want a game bred dog so i know that his instincts tell him never to give up, never to let go, never to stop...til he dies. Gameness to me is dedication discipline desire determination whatever you wanna call it is fine with me....but my dogs have got to have it or the potential within.


----------



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Mr. Bleezy said:


> i think less people having true game dogs is a good thing.


But, game and DA isn't the same thing. Maybe by breeding out the DA, MORE people would end up with game dogs, they just wouldn't know it.

I can't say I've ever seen in person and HONEST TO GOD *GAME dog. If I have, then I had no idea I was in the presence of such greatness. Game dogs are rare already. At least, that's my opinion.*


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok here is where I disagree gameness is NOT drive it's not Dog aggression. Gameness is something only a true pit dog will possess. To say your dog is game or has been bred for gameness you must have a fighting bulldog who has proven him/herself the traditional way gameness was intended to be proven IN THE BOX! 

This is what gameness really means 

Gameness in APBT's is a canine virtue that is most akin to the human virtue of unflagging courage. It is a determination to master any situation and never back down out of fear. It was developed in pit bulls by many generations of selective breeding. It is what allows a pit bull to keep fighting non-stop for two or more hours, in spite of broken bones, torn muscles, blood loss, dehydration, and exhaustion.


----------



## Cain714 (Nov 9, 2008)

*Dont do it*

I dont think its right that they wanna change something that is a part of this awsome breed. I will have to say that since i got my boy, hes the smartest dog i have ever trained. Of course this is the first time i ever owned a pitbull, and it was one of the best things i could have done. So to take something away, its not fair to the breed. We need to educate people that doubt this Breed, so they dont get scared every time they see a pitbull.


----------



## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

love it or leave it alone!!!


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Well, no great surprise here, my answer is NO as well. I like the breed the way it is. I think dog aggression is in all dogs, and isn't the end of the world just because our breed has a greater measure of it. I think the world has something like 500 dog breeds, and there are lots to choose from if you want a dog who will be more tolerant of other dogs. Long live the APBT, in all his glory, DA included.


----------



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I wanna hear from the 3 people who voted yes. I want to see an intelligent argument for the other side...


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

I voted "undecided" because not every pit bull and pet bull is DA and if you've got one that isn't why would you breed it back in? I understand the consept of preservation but breeding for DA seems a little sadistic to me. On another note, I've met some pretty damned aggro AmStaffs, DA and LA!


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Its not that you ARE breeding for DA, its that you are NOT BREEDING TO OUST what DA is in the dogs.


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

If you were making peach cobbler and took the peaches out you no longer have peach cobbler..................man Im hungry!


----------



## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> But, game and DA isn't the same thing. Maybe by breeding out the DA, MORE people would end up with game dogs, they just wouldn't know it.
> 
> I can't say I've ever seen in person and HONEST TO GOD *GAME dog. If I have, then I had no idea I was in the presence of such greatness. Game dogs are rare already. At least, that's my opinion.*


*
.
i have met plenty of real game dogs that aren't all papered up and are quite common in certain areas of my city. they are around. i believe them to be rare generally speaking and i think they need to remain that way. most breeds that are rare are rare for a reason. as far as breeding dog aggression in pitbulls i think there is no point unless you fight them. i know exactly what gameness is. it goes hand in hand with dog aggression. It's all a bunch of terrier stuff. if a pit is a real deal good example of the working breed it doesn't have to be dog aggressive though, it just isn't submissive. there is a big difference. i'm sure there was some hardcore guy from the old days who only breed dog aggression, but i don't think it is going to take away from a dogs work performance just because he isn't trying to nip at every dog that walks by. I think breeding submissive pups as apbt's is wrong, but breeding non dog aggressive dogs i think that isn't a flaw at all. If a pup comes out dog aggressive then i wouldn't flaw it either. but is it wrong to breed out the dog aggression? I don't know that it is something you can do fully if the dog is still acting like a terrier, or in this case a pitbull terrier. If that dog is threatened then it is going to kick another dogs tail or die trying. it doesn't have to be dog aggressive. it just can't be a submissive little baby(which it may once, ONCE!). I except the fact that if you have a pit you shouldn't take it to the dog park ,nor do i. At the same time i am in belief that if someone wants the pit traits in a dog but one that acts less terrier like, then there are options for those individuals and that is good). I think you can get a totally game dog that isn't dog aggressive. again unsubmissive behavior isn't by dog aggression. point being it sucks people confuse other dogs with apbt, but it doesn't mean that all other breeds or variations are bad. i mean seriously, that's kinda like people screaming ***********. just because others aren't white,(perhaps they were half white half black) doesn't mean they are incapable of deserving love or acceptance, or recognition as a race. all dogs are a mix of different breeds. if someone wants to create the ultimate family dog out of a pit and some other breeds, and they can do it with moral principles, then more power to them. . I dunno I like alot of breeds and hate many as well. i have a reason for every breed i dislike. if someone could come along and change those things then i'd be like sweet and probably own one! In general I like the less gamey, non dog aggressive, xxl pitbulls. I like them blue or blue fawn, and big as hell! BULLY! that's just what i like. i never thought i would like a breed better than an apbt, but after i got my first bully i realized i like them more. go figure.

the answer to the question is no. it's shouldn't be bred out of an apbt, but i don't see it as a flaw if the dog is not dog aggressive. do you see what i mean??*


----------



## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> If you were making peach cobbler and took the peaches out you no longer have peach cobbler..................man Im hungry!


but if i took the peaches and poured some cream all over it. i would have peaches and cream. and i like that better. plus it's less more healthy.


----------



## dan'sgrizz (Oct 22, 2008)

.... :stick: 
Terriers? That's not even hard fact. They didn't cross a peach pit with a bull and a terrier to get our beautiful breed. IMO you can't outcross into other breeds and still have a game dog... IMO . That's beside the point as for being in the presence of gameness I might keep that to yourself if you do know what infact you are talking about. Game dogs are rare in history and dogs that are dead game are history.


----------



## ErikH (May 26, 2005)

I voted undecided... I don't agree with everyone trying to breed out DA, but I also don't think it's wrong for some people to do. If everyone were to breed it out, then the breed as a whole would be altered, which I kind of disagree with. On one hand preserving the original standards of the breed is important, but on the other hand, some people want a pit without the common pit problems... However, if you are bohered by the common problems with owning a pit (DA wise, but also including the discriminatory comments, uneducated people you have to deal with, etc), maybe you should consider a lower maintenance breed.

There's good arguments for both sides, which is why I am split between the two.


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> Its not that you ARE breeding for DA, its that you are NOT BREEDING TO OUST what DA is in the dogs.


That's kinda what I'm feelin'. I'm not suggesting that folks who have a cold line breed DA back in. (Although I personally don't feel that completely cold dogs represent the pinnacle of the APBT. They _should_ have some attitude.) My issue is with breeding _expressly_ to change the breed, when there are already so many things to focus on. Improve the bad bites we see a lot, improve the flat feet running rampant in some lines, make sure to breed dogs with good stifle and tailset, breed dogs with lots of drive, so on and so forth. DA -- the presence or lack therof -- should be the last thing you worry about.

If the breed is too much for a person to handle in its current form, is the answer to change it to suit? Ask any purebred enthusiast and they will tell you that's not the name of the dog game. It would be like if I had a line of Caucasians and decided the mistrust of strangers was too great a liability, so I was going to breed friendlier dogs. Then they would be something different. Or since nobody needs terriers to go to ground with the advent of modern poisons, I'm going to get a line of Patterdales and breed out the animal-aggression so that people can keep them in the house without worrying about them killing the kids' hamster.

It is one thing to breed out a health defect, another to change an old working breed to suit modern pet owner desires. There really is no reason. If an owner is responsible, trains their dog, keeps it on a leash when in urban areas, carries a breaking stick, dog-aggression will not affect that dog's quality of life. It's been proven that dog-aggressive dogs can still show, still pull, still get CGCs, still live in the home, and so on. They just need a more dedicated owner. And I see nothing wrong with that being a requirement for owning one.


----------



## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

dan'sgrizz said:


> .... :stick:
> Terriers? That's not even hard fact. They didn't cross a peach pit with a bull and a terrier to get our beautiful breed. IMO you can't outcross into other breeds and still have a game dog... IMO . That's beside the point as for being in the presence of gameness I might keep that to yourself if you do know what infact you are talking about. Game dogs are rare in history and dogs that are dead game are history.


what is hard fact when dealing with dogs? i promise there is a reason they called it a terrier. if it wasn't bred with them then they sure do harbor those traits and it is safe to say the way they are perceived to behave genetically is relative. as for my encounters with these dogs i can tell whoever i want. i learn alot here . i don't claim to know everything about these dogs or any other breed. i learn something new everyday and will about dogs till i die. one thing i do have though is a general perspective based on dealing with more dogs than i care to remember. i can't tell you how many times i have seen game bred dogs walking into the atlanta midtown petsmart when i managed its grooming salon nearly 8 years ago for 3 years. there were all kinds of pits way before the bully revolution. i was hearing names like jeep, colby, gator, superman, bla bla bla.. i had no idea what they were talking about. they were breeding real gaming lines whether they were using them for fighting or just pets. most just pets, but occasionally they would roll in with bite marks. it makes one sick believe me. especially when you can't do anything about it(i've tried but that is another story). i knew very little about what i know now then. i have worked with pitbull rescues and walked through fulton animal control enough times to know they are all over the place. look in the newspaper, easy enough to find a real pitbull. not everyone who has them is breeding them to fight either. there is a new demand for different style bullies, and i like the fact that it is being accommodated. i like that they are restoring the reputation. it makes it easier on the die hards really. almost every time i speak to someone and tell them i have a pit they say, "i hear they are actually good dogs." that wasn't the case 10 years ago. anyway, i went with go pitbull and checked undecided for the same reason.


----------



## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> Its not that you ARE breeding for DA, its that you are NOT BREEDING TO OUST what DA is in the dogs.


okay then i totally had this one pegged wrong. i thought you guys were saying only breed the truly dog aggressive ones and basically neuter those who wer good with dogs. i don't fault a pit for being dog aggressive that is what they are. i like the different variations but i don't call them good examples of pits if they are submissive. guess i read wrong somewhere. lol :hammer:


----------



## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

A lot of great points here but Smokey Joe's was absolutely brilliant.


smokey_joe said:


> :cheers:
> 
> Here, folks, is the reason that I voted NO!!!
> 
> ...


Reverse Dogmen...LMFAO:clap:

I'll agree with Tara and Marty also - if you gotta have replica, get an AST. That's what they are there for. Admire the APBT from a distance and just accept the fact that the breed is not for you.


----------



## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Case and point: You cant continuously breed something different and yet call it the same.
It's a no brainer.. A breed is based on the genetic traits that they throw.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> Its not that you ARE breeding for DA, its that you are NOT BREEDING TO OUST what DA is in the dogs.


:goodpost:


----------



## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I voted NO I love the APBT for what they are and they are DA. I agree with Eric love them or leave them alone.


----------



## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

I voted no because, to me, DA is not an unwanted trait.


----------



## bullybabe (Mar 2, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> my answer is a RESOUNDING NO!!!!!
> 
> You take it out you changed the dog and you no longer have an APBT. Love it or leave it.


I voted no as well.


----------



## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

I’m laughing my a$$ off. AST’s are still DA. What’s been breed out of them is GAMENESS! DA and gameness are two very different elements of a dog IMO. AST's and Pit Bull’s like most all terriers are dog or animal aggressive; THAT’S A TERRIER. The best statement so far in this post was from OFK “It’s not that you ARE breeding for DA, it’s that you are NOT BREEDING TO OUST what DA is in the dogs.” One question for the board; if someone wants DA breed out of Pit Bulls and DA is an issue for them why did they bring a Pit Bull into their household? Dog aggression is not an issue for me and it never has been. With all the Terrier breeds that I’ve own throughout my life virtually everyone has been dog aggressive. People need to leave this breed alone and accept it for what it is or get another breed of dog.


----------



## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se (Sep 15, 2008)

Elvisfink said:


> One question for the board; if someone wants DA breed out of Pit Bulls and DA is an issue for them why did they bring a Pit Bull into their household? Dog aggression is not an issue for me and it never has been. With all the Terrier breeds that I've own throughout my life virtually everyone has been dog aggressive. *People need to leave this breed alone and accept it for what it is or get another breed of dog.*


:clap::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## koonce272 (Sep 16, 2008)

i voted other, i really dont feel dog aggression is so much breed into the dog vs being tought. Yes they have traits that let them excel in what they do hence the gameness, but i dont feel they are born dog aggressive. Ive seen a few dog fighting docum. and seen what they do at just weeks of age inorder to get them dog aggressive. I feel its what you want them to do, they will excel at whatever sport you put them in. Over years and years, they may be a hint, but i still feel it is the way the dog is tought to be dog aggressive and if they werent, well they got mauled and lost, and after getting mauled and seeing nothing is being done, they will attack back in a natural state of protection

Ive grown up around to many well behaved pitties to feel they are born dog aggressive and have been around and personal seen many dog FRIENDLY dogs attack others, mainly hunting dogs,(labs and pointers).


Heres a reason why i feel dogs are not born dog aggressive. Hog hunters, you dont hunt with one dog, you use many dogs. Why dont these dog aggressive pitbulls attack eachother?

I feel the breed is fine where it is at. It is what it is for a reason, and i love the gameness of the pitties, it just a matter of what game you turn them onto. 

I also am a firm believer in proper socialization of you dog from a young age. Puppy class is a joke, you just need to take your pup out and let him meet the world and all the sites and sounds it has to offer.

Just a few cents for the table.

Remember this is just my personal opinion from my experience with dogs.


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

OH NO!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

The reason I voted yes is because unless i'm planning on fighting a dog, I have no reason for it to be aggressive. Sure its in the history of our breed, but its not a NEEDED trait anymore. Agreed that you will never completely get it out of all them, but there is nothing wrong with mellowing it down a bit. APBTs are dogs bred for a purpose. They are working dogs. Why would you want something thats unneeded to perform the task at hand? Its pointless if you ask me. Name one reason(other than history, fighting, or to look tough)that you would need your APBT to be dog aggressive?


----------



## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> The reason I voted yes is because unless i'm planning on fighting a dog, I have no reason for it to be aggressive. Sure its in the history of our breed, but its not a NEEDED trait anymore. Agreed that you will never completely get it out of all them, but there is nothing wrong with mellowing it down a bit. APBTs are dogs bred for a purpose. They are working dogs. Why would you want something thats unneeded to perform the task at hand? Its pointless if you ask me. Name one reason(other than history, fighting, or to look tough)that you would need your APBT to be dog aggressive?


I may not know that much about the breed but I feel the same way...


----------



## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Name one reason(other than history, fighting, or to look tough)that you would need your APBT to be dog aggressive?


One day way back when I was a teenager, and we had our 1st pitbull, me and my brother were walking him at night. All of a sudden we heard some footsteps getting louder and we wondered what it was, when we turned around we saw a large pitbull (I think it was a Hemphill Rednose - adba papered) coming right at us, well our pit didn't think twice and went heads up with the dog, got a hold of his face, and the dog managed to break free and ran back home. We were like WTF? and then laughed, and went about our business. Turned out that that dog belonged to a friend of my brother's that got loose that night. So DA works for me if I'm walking my dog and some loose or stray dog that is HA crosses my path. It would come in handy.


----------



## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

Thats not aggression, thats protection. Big difference.


----------



## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> Thats not aggression, thats protection. Big difference.


My brother's dog was highly DA. I guess if someone has an example of their non-DA dog doing the same thing, I'll agree with you


----------



## apbtmom76 (Nov 4, 2008)

I voted NO, because if you wanted a non DA APBT then you should get an AMStaff. That's why they were bred. Strictly for show and non DA. No matter what we tell people about these dogs they are gonna believe what they want too. WHich is a crying shame, because they will never know the true happiness in owning this wonderful APBT breed.


----------



## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

NesOne said:


> My brother's dog was highly DA. I guess if someone has an example of their non-DA dog doing the same thing, I'll agree with you


Canine saviour in cat attack


----------



## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> Canine saviour in cat attack


Cool article :thumbsup: however, aren't most labs DA anyway? if not, then I guess any pitbull would have done the same thing ours did that day.


----------



## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

Thats just one example. A dog can be protective without being DA. Its not an arguement, its a fact, their is a difference between protection and aggression.


----------



## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> Thats just one example. A dog can be protective without being DA. Its not an arguement, its a fact, their is a difference between protection and aggression.


Got it.

I guess in responding to Rock Creek, I should have stated that with my dog being DA, it would assist in keeping loose dogs at a distance. Especially the ones that like to come and  on my lawn.


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> The reason I voted yes is because unless i'm planning on fighting a dog, I have no reason for it to be aggressive. Sure its in the history of our breed, but its not a NEEDED trait anymore. Agreed that you will never completely get it out of all them, but there is nothing wrong with mellowing it down a bit. APBTs are dogs bred for a purpose. They are working dogs. Why would you want something thats unneeded to perform the task at hand? Its pointless if you ask me. Name one reason(other than history, fighting, or to look tough)that you would need your APBT to be dog aggressive?


ITs not illegal to match dogs everywhere, but that is another issue. Also here in the US these dogs are still used to hunt ard game. Just because WE dont need the trait does not mean it should be removed. You remove DA, The game gene whatever you have altered the breed and its no longer an APBT, its the same principle others have done to the bully. They altered the breed and its no longer an APBT because it does not conform to the standard. There is a reason for standards, its absolute truth by which you measure what you have. You cant alter standards and call it original. You change it, then call it somethine else.

If you want peach cobbler but take the peaches out, you dont have peach cobbler. The breed is what it is,,,,,,,,,,,,and Im hungry!


----------



## ForPits&Giggles (Oct 21, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> ITs not illegal to match dogs everywhere, but that is another issue. Also here in the US these dogs are still used to hunt ard game. Just because WE dont need the trait does not mean it should be removed. You remove DA, The game gene whatever you have altered the breed and its no longer an APBT, its the same principle others have done to the bully. They altered the breed and its no longer an APBT because it does not conform to the standard. There is a reason for standards, its absolute truth by which you measure what you have. You cant alter standards and call it original. You change it, then call it somethine else.
> 
> If you want peach cobbler but take the peaches out, you dont have peach cobbler. The breed is what it is,,,,,,,,,,,,and Im hungry!


No Bully's are not APBT because they were bred with dogs that arent APBT, duh. If you breed a APBT and a APBT you get a APBT. According to your train of thought, if a person is born retarded they shouldnt be considered a human. Dogs arent peach cobbler, they're more like spaghetti. Spaghetti without garlic is still spaghetti. Im NOT saying these dogs should be bred different or anything, but just because a dog comes out to not be DA doesnt mean its not an APBT. No standard Ive ever read said "Dog must be DA to be APBT". Unless you have read this somewhere I dont understand your logic.


----------



## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

My opinon is this: I get you all love your APBTs the way they are. Thats great, however, you've gota realize.... IF you want to keep breeding dogs with DA and consider it a desirable trait, you are completely feeding BSL laws. Everytime people see a DA pitbull lunge at another dog as it walks by it, guess what they think...."Wow pitbulls are pure killers". People DO NOT UNDERSTAND that DA is not HA. Trust me here, I've explained it to so many people when I volenteer at the shelter, and they ask about pitbull agression. The people that know DA isnt HA are the pitbull owners. And when you continue to desire DA dogs, people will continue to think these dogs are killers, and BSL will run rampant. I'm not saying cull out dogs that are DA, I'm saying why not celebrate dogs that _aren't_ DA, while still keep their drive to succeed in everything. They don't have to roll over and cry if they get attacked, but they shouldnt initiate an attack. I think theres a difference between being DA and being the type of dog that will fight back when attacked. thats just my 2 cents


----------



## Julie K (Oct 15, 2008)

Marty said:


> No, if you can't handle the DA dog then get an AM staff that's how they were breed.


Marty, I hope no one reads this and runs out to get an Amstaff because they think they can get an APBT with no dog aggression. It's not so. I don't expect mine or anybody else's to play well with others. Not all Amstaffs are bred to be fat showdogs, and none of the breeders I have worked with sit down and look at pedigrees for the purpose of pairing up non-dog aggressive dogs. 
Julie K


----------



## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se (Sep 15, 2008)

college_dude said:


> My opinon is this: I get you all love your APBTs the way they are. Thats great, however, you've gota realize.... IF you want to keep breeding dogs with DA and consider it a desirable trait, you are completely feeding BSL laws. *Everytime people see a DA pitbull lunge at another dog as it walks by it, guess what they think...."Wow pitbulls are pure killers". *People DO NOT UNDERSTAND that DA is not HA. Trust me here, I've explained it to so many people when I volenteer at the shelter, and they ask about pitbull agression. The people that know DA isnt HA are the pitbull owners. And when you continue to desire DA dogs, people will continue to think these dogs are killers, and BSL will run rampant. I'm not saying cull out dogs that are DA, I'm saying why not celebrate dogs that _aren't_ DA, while still keep their drive to succeed in everything. They don't have to roll over and cry if they get attacked, but they shouldnt initiate an attack. I think theres a difference between being DA and being the type of dog that will fight back when attacked. thats just my 2 cents


DONT PUT YOUR DOG IN THAT SITUATION FOR THAT TO HAPPEN!!!! irresponsible people do that. and if your taking your dog to the dog park with no trianing, or do not know what to look for THAN THAT IS FEEDING TO BSL.... its ignorant people who put their dogs in danger that screw it all up for others. lets think about this for a second,

*pitbull with DA is like someone who was a drug addict. 
*take the DA out is like removing the drugs from that person.
*put that dog with another new challenging dog or the person at a party with drugs thats setting them up for failure.

why do it??? whats the point. even people who have the most self control may fall off the wagon and use again. dogs have to be tuaght to have self control but even then!!!! NATURE TAKES ITS COURSE.

*"I think theres a difference between being DA and being the type of dog that will fight back when attacked. thats just my 2 cents"*
i agree with you hear. but almost any k9 will fight back when its gettin chewed on. ther is a difference no one disagrees here

*
"And when you continue to desire DA dogs, people will continue to think these dogs are killers, and BSL will run rampant"*

EVEN IF U TAKE THE TRAIT OUT OF THE BREED poeple are still going to run with BSL. they will continue to think they are vicious. until some other breed takes the title pitbulls will keep it. like i said before they cant take "the kill" out of a mountain lion or shark, and there is no way in hell (as much as they ensure me its gone) am i gonna hang out with a moutnain lion or shark.


----------



## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

Marty said:


> No, if you can't handle the DA dog then get an AM staff that's how they were breed.


*claps* i agree...DA is just something that comes with the breed. But it's your job as an owner to be RESPONSIBLE and SOCIALIZE the pup therefore they will be less likely to show DA to an extreme. IMO, there will be agressive tendencies (sp?) but with proper socializing it will be less prominate. but i dont belive in undoing over 100 yrs. or so of 'purpose' breeding. b/c alot of ppl use these dogs as hunting dogs, and without that 'drive' ...then...what do you have? just another breed..not an APBT.


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> > According to your train of thought, if a person is born retarded they shouldnt be considered a human.QUOTE]
> 
> 
> that statement was retarded, where do you imply that from what I have said.
> ...


----------



## Coletrain (Oct 26, 2008)

LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se said:


> DONT PUT YOUR DOG IN THAT SITUATION FOR THAT TO HAPPEN!!!! irresponsible people do that. and if your taking your dog to the dog park with no trianing, or do not know what to look for THAN THAT IS FEEDING TO BSL.... its ignorant people who put their dogs in danger that screw it all up for others. lets think about this for a second,


OK let's think about it for a second. This can not always be 100% avoided. I rescued my Staffie Kalie when she was 13 months old. She spent 23 hours a day in a dark basement with no interaction at all. She was allowed 15 min at a time 4 times a day to go outside to use the washroom. With no socialization she was a monster towards other dogs outside of the house. She has major leash aggression and we are slowly working on it. Her thresh-hold is about 20 feet ( down from about 150 feet ). Inside that and she is out for blood.

I have 4 different routes I take when I walk and I know where all the dogs are in a 3 mile radius of the house. Yes I even have a map with the houses marked. I know when it is time to cross the street or what not so I am trying not to put my dog in a bad situation. What happens when we round a corner somewhere and low and behold there is another dog. My girl Kalie lunges and wants to kill. This is not a situation that I put her in obviously but sh!t happens. Does this make me a irresponsible owner?



LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se said:


> EVEN IF U TAKE THE TRAIT OUT OF THE BREED poeple are still going to run with BSL. they will continue to think they are vicious. until some other breed takes the title pitbulls will keep it.


I do agree here but don't you think that if they are not DA and do not lunge at other dogs it will slowly start to change peoples perception of the breed? I know it won't happen overnight and it would take years, but changing one mind at a time is what we need.

Like I said in an earlier post. Almost everyone perceives DA and HA as the same thing due to their ignorance and of lack of understanding. Doesn't matter if it is a Lab, GSD, or Pit. If they lunge at a dog then they feel it will lunge at a person. Too many people buy in the media hype and believe everything they see on the news or read in the paper.



LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se said:


> like i said before they cant take "the kill" out of a mountain lion or shark, and there is no way in hell (as much as they ensure me its gone) am i gonna hang out with a moutnain lion or shark.


C'mon where is your sense of adventure? :hammer:


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> Almost everyone perceives DA and HA as the same thing due to their ignorance and of lack of understanding.


Huge part of the problem!!


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> OH NO!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!


If you've got a problem with the discussion, you don't have to participate. I'm getting tired of you coming in and copping attitude when new threads get started to discuss side-topics. _*I*_ want to talk about it, and clearly others find the discussion stimulating as well. This is a discussion forum, which means we discuss things. If you find that disagreeable, I'm sure there are more important and noteworthy things you can be doing with your time. But there was no reason for that post, other than to be denigrating. Quit doing it. Thank you.


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

No!hell no,
also apbt isn't a true terrier,gameness comes from bulldogs as much as it does from terriers,If the apbt was a true terrier their be a wire haired variety no doubt.Anyways you want a non da apbt get a America bully,also i'm not sure if it is capable totally breed out traits in dogs,Sbt isn't fought actively,yet still is da,same with bull terrier and certain American staffordshire terriers and even American bully.
If your breeding for a non aggressive apbt,then you are not breeding for apbts no matter what it is said on paper,call it a staffordshire or call it a bully but not a apbt.jmo,jmo.


----------



## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> Huge part of the problem!!


i agree with ya ofk, but DA and HA are two dif. things. but dogs are just like kids, if you dont teach them they will never learn, and in this breed, they are so eager to learn and want nothing more than to please you. (aside from their stubborn hard heads sometimes!! lol. ) now, true, there are some dogs, i belive are just hardwired wrong, not their fault, it's the fault of the person breeding, and sometimes not even then, they just got the short end of the stick. but if your dog gets in a fight and you decide to jump in the middle of it, it's your own stupid careless act that gets you bit. you can't blame the dog..


----------



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

There's just no way of knowing what else you're changing when you take out the DA. (Genetically speaking).

A gene carries the DA trait. What else does that gene carry? Today's dogs that don't show DA qualities (pure APBTs) still possess the gene, it is just recessive. But, if you continually breed that gene out of the dog, you're going to have to give up other traits as well.

There's no way of knowing what those traits would be without years of consistent breeding. What are you going to be left with? Maybe by breeding out the DA gene, you're making the HA gene dominant. Maybe by breeding out the DA gene, the dogs will be cowardly lap dogs. 

I just think that the dogs should be left the way they are. DA isn't "needed" anymore in this country, but it is still part of what makes the APBT the breed that it is.


----------



## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se (Sep 15, 2008)

chic4pits said:


> i agree with ya ofk, but DA and HA are two dif. things. but dogs are just like kids, if you dont teach them they will never learn, and in this breed, they are so eager to learn and want nothing more than to please you. (aside from their stubborn hard heads sometimes!! lol. ) now, true, there are some dogs, i belive are just hardwired wrong, not their fault, it's the fault of the person breeding, and sometimes not even then, they just got the short end of the stick. but if your dog gets in a fight and you decide to jump in the middle of it, it's your own stupid careless act that gets you bit. you can't blame the dog..


:goodpost:


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> but if your dog gets in a fight and you decide to jump in the middle of it, it's your own stupid careless act that gets you bit


Just an info tidbit, not sure if you knew or not but when dogs were matched in the pit the handlers were right there with them. They would often move in and separate the dogs when they came to a lock. They would move in during battle and the dogs did not bite the handlers the majority of the time. The dogs know the difference.


----------



## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se (Sep 15, 2008)

first, its great that you rescued a dog. im dealing with the same issue with my landlords dog..

but


Coletrain said:


> OK let's think about it for a second. This can not always be 100% avoided. I rescued my Staffie Kalie when she was 13 months old. She spent 23 hours a day in a dark basement with no interaction at all. She was allowed 15 min at a time 4 times a day to go outside to use the washroom. With no socialization she was a monster towards other dogs outside of the house. She has major leash aggression and we are slowly working on it. Her thresh-hold is about 20 feet ( down from about 150 feet ). Inside that and she is out for blood.


key words here RESCUE DOG.... i dont care how much we breed DA out of any animal if they are abused or negelceted they are going to have problems. so that is irrelevent. if u put a human child in _your_ dogs situation with lack of interaction and love that kid is gonna be screwed up! if u do it to a monkey, the same thing. so rescue dogs dont follow the norm. sorry but your point doesnt make any sense. sure if u work and work with a child or dog or animal that has been negelected or abused its going to take a LONG LONG time before they come back around, and even then they will not be normal. sorry to say it but thats how that ball rolls.



Coletrain said:


> I have 4 different routes I take when I walk and I know where all the dogs are in a 3 mile radius of the house. Yes I even have a map with the houses marked. I know when it is time to cross the street or what not so I am trying not to put my dog in a bad situation. What happens when we round a corner somewhere and low and behold there is another dog. My girl Kalie lunges and wants to kill. This is not a situation that I put her in obviously but sh!t happens. Does this make me a irresponsible owner?


becuase rescue dogs dont think they same as a dog wit a better life, like i said its irrelevant. so this case DOES NOT make u an irresponsible owner. hell, i do tha same thing with chyna. (my landlords dog that has not gotten any attention from that family in over 2 years) she just sits in the backyard all day, and sometimes goes without food for weeks. i have stepped in to take care and give her the love she needs. i walk her everynight, and its a struggle when we pass a house with dogs. she gets nervouse and starts to pull. sure i get looks from people but i could care less. she was negelcted and deosnt know how to behave. she also DECAPITATES AND EATS CATS! so when we see cats in the neighborhood she is out to kill. but i know how to correct her and break her consentration on that animal. and if worse comes to worse i am prepared with my break stick at all times. doesnt mean im irresponsible because i think i am doing the right thing by exposing her and having control, and preparation. i would simply have to explain, this dog had problems, luckliy kenya doesnt mind so if i hav her with me i can easily say, not all pitbulls are like this. its the owners who dont explain, and dont take into account that somethien bad may happen and arent prepared that are irresponsible


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> > that statement was retarded, where do you imply that from what I have said.
> >
> > Again show me where I said that. I KNOW there are many APBT dogs with little to no DA, hence why culling was so important back in the day. Just show me where I said what you claim I said! This thread is about breeding and NO I dont think you should screw with the breeding out of DA in the dogs.
> >
> ...


----------



## trutildeath360 (Sep 1, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> > that statement was retarded, where do you imply that from what I have said.
> >
> > :rofl::clap:
> > i voted no..and i have my reasons...i could on and on but its not my place to convince anyone otherwise..especially if your radical enough to say you would like to see da bred out of this breed..between this thread and the one about people all for taking their dogs to the dog park is their any wonder why this breed is in so much trouble..with all the ignorance and misinformation i truly feel sorry for this breed....if you have it in your head that breeding da out of apbt is a good thing and going to the dog park is a good idea then i feel that you are at the point beyond reason..its like convincing a born again christian their is no god...its just not gonna happen....so far ive been really pleased with the info on this site..but between the dog park and now this...im amazed at how many people who own this breed are trying to force it to be something its not.....im glad that bahamutt brought these topics up if not we would not have known that their are so many people who in the name of helping this breed will hasten its demise through ignorance and selfishness....why dont we start breeding for color also....?? you know who i feel sorry for..all those apbt that just want to be what they are...no more..no less.......
> > ...


----------



## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se (Sep 15, 2008)

trutildeath360 said:


> i voted no..and i have my reasons...i could on and on but its not my place to convince anyone otherwise..especially if your radical enough to say you would like to see da bred out of this breed..between this thread and the one about people all for taking their dogs to the dog park is their any wonder why this breed is in so much trouble..with all the ignorance and misinformation i truly feel sorry for this breed....if you have it in your head that breeding da out of apbt is a good thing and going to the dog park is a good idea then i feel that you are at the point beyond reason..its like convincing a born again christian their is no god...its just not gonna happen....so far ive been really pleased with the info on this site..but between the dog park and now this...im amazed at how many people who own this breed are trying to force it to be something its not.....im glad that bahamutt brought these topics up if not we would not have known that their are so many people who in the name of helping this breed will hasten its demise through ignorance and selfishness....why dont we start breeding for color also....?? you know who i feel sorry for..all those apbt that just want to be what they are...no more..no less.......
> and thats my 2 cents....
> tp://www.myspace.com/absolution360


:clap::clap:


----------



## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

well i finally cast my vote and it was no. but i still don't have a problem with it being bred out of some pets.


----------



## koonce272 (Sep 16, 2008)

to those who say u should have bought an Amstaff if you wanted a non da dog. 

so you basically just said you bought your dog because it is da.

I still dont think something that isnt there can be bred out.

For ex: My old begal was NOT BORN knowing how to hunt rabbit. I had to teach it. It had characteristics which helped it excel, such as drive, gameness and a good snout, but with out teaching this dog would NOT be a good hunter.

Same goes for labs, ive raised a few and i can tell you this. They are NOT born noing how to duck hunt. Yes they have a good drive, and mannor to pls, but even retrieving has always been taught to my dogs, they are NOT BORN knowing this stuff.

as for Pitbulls they are not born dog aggressive. They have traits and characteristics which allow them to excel in what their OWNER allows them to, from dog fighting to hunting hogs, to dog jumping. But even when dog fighting was legal, i can assure you NOT one of those dogs was BORN da. The owners just focus the dogs drive power and willingness to do anything to win in a da manner.


----------



## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

koonce272 said:


> as for Pitbulls they are not born dog aggressive. They have traits and characteristics which allow them to excel in what their OWNER allows them to, from dog fighting to hunting hogs, to dog jumping. But even when dog fighting was legal, i can assure you NOT one of those dogs was BORN da. The owners just focus the dogs drive power and willingness to do anything to win in a da manner.


that is soo not true. when my first pit was born i got him around six weeks. another friend of mine got his dog at the same time. it was six weeks also. i put both dogs on the floor to play. in a matter of seconds they were in a full on fight! AT SIX WEEKS!!! Now pluto was able to play in the park and i was able to ward alot of that off through proper training, but anytime he saw that dog for the remainder of his life, he was going to fight if allowed. some dogs need to be trained on stuff, other its just in their blood. it is in a pits blood. listen to me now and believe me later..


----------



## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

*Pit Bulls and Aggression - Fact vs. Myth vs. Hysteria*

I recently read an article about Pit Bull owners that was interesting. I won't go into all the details but in a nut shell the article said that a lot of Pit Bull owners tend not to embrace the potentially aggressive nature of the breed and if an owner does talk about it other Pit bull owners come down on them.

Well, here goes, because I'm about to talk about this, in public, for the whole world to read about.

Fact - Pit Bulls can be dog aggressive. There very existence was based on this trait. They are also known to be aggressive towards larger animals like cattle and horses as well. Again, this goes back to the reason they were bred in the first place.

Myth - Dog aggression leads to human aggression. This is not true. Human aggression is a different type of aggression and one type of aggression does not lead to another. If a Pit Bull is human aggressive the dog is showing unsound and incorrect temperament and should be immediately addressed. If the aggression is in fact real aggression the dog should be put to sleep. It is not part of the American Pit Bull Terrier's nature to be human aggressive and those dogs that are should be culled from the gene pool.

Hysteria - Dog aggression is NOT a big problem. I am a professional dog trainer and I deal with dog and human aggression. There are many breeds of dogs that do not get along with other dogs and that have the potential to do serious harm to other animals. Large dogs can really put the hurt on smaller dogs yet owners allow them to romp freely at the local dog park. Dog aggressive Great Danes or Labs are just as likely to really hurt another dog as a Pit Bull.

The ony difference between these dog aggressive dogs and our breed is, our breed has been specifically bred for this type of behavior. While that is based in their history and creation the truth is, not all Pit Bulls will turn out dog aggressive. Just as not all Labs will not turn out dog aggressive.

The major point to keep in mind is, American Pit Bull Terriers are more likely to display the trait than a Lab or a Golden or a Great Dane or a Bull Mastiff or a Yorkie. This does not make them bad dogs! It makes them dogs that were bred for high drive, hard work, and for outstanding companion dogs.

As Pit Bull owner if you do not embrace their history you are turning your back on why you love the breed in the first place. Their history is why they are what they are today.

Personally, I embrace their history and think every Pit Bull owner should do the same. I am not saying I think animal fighting is a cool idea and I am not saying I condone it. It is their HISTORY, while we should not deny it the fact is, times have changed. There is no longer a place for that kind of "sport" or "work." Any more.

Today weight pull, agility, competition obedience, tracking, and stock work have replaced the dog fighting pit and the bull baiting ring.

These jobs the breed is well designed for and it is these types of activities that give them an outlet for their high drive, hard working, lifestyle they were original bred for.

All the Pit Bull owners living in "happy land" as I like to call it where you paint a peaches and cream picture of the breed but fail to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth because you want your beloved "pibble", which by the way is the most ridiculous name I have ever heard these dogs called by, to look good for the public eye.

Well, if your dog has a correct temperament they should look good naturally without you making the breed out to be some foo-foo dog with muscles.

Yes they are outgoing, friendly, loving, high energy, and yes they are clowns and goof balls. But as Pit Bull owners if you are not honest with people this, along with the bad stuff, can attract the wrong kind of owner.

American Pit Bull Terriers are not for everyone. Neither are Golden Retrievers or Poodles. Be honest with people and tell them the realities of Pit Bull ownership.

I face a constant, daily, frenzy of hysterical dog owners ranting about how bad my dogs are and how I am a nut job for having "that breed." Most people are not ready for this type of critisim. It's hard and it does take its toll on some of us.

So be up front and honest about your Pit Bull. If they are dog friendly, great! But that doesn't mean someone else will end up with a dog friendly example of the breed. If they are not prepared to deal with possible dog aggression and high drive they don't need to bring a Pit Bull into their home.

I would give the same advice if the breed we were talking about was a Border Collie. I wouldn't recommend a Border Collie to a busy family with small kids that lived in a city apartment. I would be honest about the dogs good side and not so good side. Great for people that are very active, not so good with super busy families, and small spaces are not a good idea either as they are high drive working dogs that need to, well, work.

Think about how you portray your dog. Are you completely honest or do you just tell people what they want to hear?

Pit Bulls and Aggression - Fact vs. Myth vs. Hysteria | The Pit Bull Lovers Blog


----------



## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se (Sep 15, 2008)

koonce272 said:


> as for Pitbulls they are not born dog aggressive. They have traits and characteristics which allow them to excel in what their OWNER allows them to, from dog fighting to hunting hogs, to dog jumping. But even when dog fighting was legal, i can assure you NOT one of those dogs was BORN da. The owners just focus the dogs drive power and willingness to do anything to win in a da manner.


ok.... lets take a wild dog. you leave food out for it everday so its well fed. I PROMISE YOU that dog will still have DA. becuase is was never taught to CONTROL IT or IGNORE other dogs. all dogs are born with a natrual instinct to protect themselves and their territory. if ANY dog or animal steps in that way and that dog feels threated or challanged it will attack.

there is NO WAY you can say DA is not apart of their genetics. sure they may not attack everydog in sight, only if they are taught to do so they will (hence dog fighters) but otherwise there is still a natural instinct to protect. its apart of the k9s genetic make up. every k9s genetic make-up. in others it may be more visible or hieghtened but its in every dog


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

No that's not what we said!!! People who do not like the dog aggression in these dogs should get an amstaff or a dog with less dog aggression tendencies. Modern day amstaffs while still TERRIER dogs are bred to be less aggressive with other animals they are more mellow dogs . NOT ALL OF THEM! But many of them are. Why the hell would you own a breed of dog that is known for dog aggression and then want the da gone? What logical sense does that make? It makes no sense at all. When you buy a dog you buy one to suit your lifestyle and needs . If you can't handle these dogs for what they are get another dog!!!!!! There is no in between here.... These dogs are known for extreme prey drive dog aggression they are athletic and active working dogs if bred to the proper standards that they were intended to be. Is every apbt terrier in america da no I know there are some that are not but most of them are it's part of how they were bred for years and years and years it's part of who they are I choose to accept that therefore I embrace it.


----------



## koonce272 (Sep 16, 2008)

LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se said:


> ok.... lets take a wild dog. you leave food out for it everday so its well fed. I PROMISE YOU that dog will still have DA. becuase is was never taught to CONTROL IT or IGNORE other dogs. all dogs are born with a natrual instinct to protect themselves and their territory. if ANY dog or animal steps in that way and that dog feels threated or challanged it will attack.
> 
> there is NO WAY you can say DA is not apart of their genetics. sure they may not attack everydog in sight, only if they are taught to do so they will (hence dog fighters) but otherwise there is still a natural instinct to protect. its apart of the k9s genetic make up. every k9s genetic make-up. in others it may be more visible or hieghtened but its in every dog


I agree, but i was speaking more on a random strole through town and all of the sudden your dog feels the urge to attack another.

protection is not aggression. Just ask Cesear lol

What you said is obvious, that would stand true for just about any wild animal that has been forced to survive.


----------



## koonce272 (Sep 16, 2008)

Mr. Bleezy said:


> that is soo not true. when my first pit was born i got him around six weeks. another friend of mine got his dog at the same time. it was six weeks also. i put both dogs on the floor to play. in a matter of seconds they were in a full on fight! AT SIX WEEKS!!! Now pluto was able to play in the park and i was able to ward alot of that off through proper training, but anytime he saw that dog for the remainder of his life, he was going to fight if allowed. some dogs need to be trained on stuff, other its just in their blood. it is in a pits blood. listen to me now and believe me later..


what went on in it first 5 wks of life. Did it have to fight for feed? what were the living conditions? lot of things could get a pup to do that.



SadieBlues said:


> No that's not what we said!!! People who do not like the dog aggression in these dogs should get an amstaff or a dog with less dog aggression tendencies. Modern day amstaffs while still TERRIER dogs are bred to be less aggressive with other animals they are more mellow dogs . NOT ALL OF THEM! But many of them are. Why the hell would you own a breed of dog that is known for dog aggression and then want the da gone? What logical sense does that make? It makes no sense at all. When you buy a dog you buy one to suit your lifestyle and needs . If you can't handle these dogs for what they are get another dog!!!!!! There is no in between here.... These dogs are known for extreme prey drive dog aggression they are athletic and active working dogs if bred to the proper standards that they were intended to be. Is every apbt terrier in america da no I know there are some that are not but most of them are it's part of how they were bred for years and years and years it's part of who they are I choose to accept that therefore I embrace it.


I know, i didnt mean to direct it towards you. There was just one post a bit back that came off on the wrong note. I should have quoted the person, but i am lazy.

I agree with most of what you say.


----------



## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

koonce272 said:


> what went on in it first 5 wks of life. Did it have to fight for feed? what were the living conditions? lot of things could get a pup to do that.
> .


well the pup was quite well taken care of. i visted it him since birth. so was the other pup. i know mine was the dominate one in his liter and i believe that to be the case with the other. those dogs just took one look at one another and started going at it. it was a fight for dominance with two pups who were unwilling to submit. not only can it come in from the start but it also can show up as late as age four despite what you do to ward it off. if your dog is a pitbull then 99 times out of 100 if it's life is threatened, it will fight. it IS in their blood.


----------



## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

koonce272 said:


> what went on in it first 5 wks of life. Did it have to fight for feed? what were the living conditions? lot of things could get a pup to do that.
> 
> I know, i didnt mean to direct it towards you. There was just one post a bit back that came off on the wrong note. I should have quoted the person, but i am lazy.
> 
> I agree with most of what you say.


Yeah I should have been more specific when using the amstaff as an alternative but they are def at least in these days a much different dog than they were back when. I just don't get this whole thing I would never own a dog I was not comfortable with. That's the problem people want so bad to change these dogs instead of just loving them for what they are. You can still have a da apbt that lives peacefully in society.

It's when you give these type of dogs to the wrong people who think they can turn their DA apbt loose in a dog park that causes the problem. This breed would be in much better shape if folks just came to terms with the breeds history and realized that some things you just can't change and must deal with them responsibly instead of trying to convince other people your dog is not what the media says it is. By taking risks to prove points that goes against the breeds nature your adding to the existing problem at hand. Our breed is special in it's own way they are not like every other dog and require certain care to make sure we don't have any accidents.


----------



## koonce272 (Sep 16, 2008)

Mr. Bleezy said:


> well the pup was quite well taken care of. i visted it him since birth. so was the other pup. i know mine was the dominate one in his liter and i believe that to be the case with the other. those dogs just took one look at one another and started going at it. it was a fight for dominance with two pups who were unwilling to submit. not only can it come in from the start but it also can show up as late as age four despite what you do to ward it off. if your dog is a pitbull then 99 times out of 100 if it's life is threatened, it will fight. it IS in their blood.


agreed, but i feel that that is the nature of any beast, even HUMANS.

its a fight or flight response and it in any species.

As a human, i have been in a few fights myself. None which i have started but like you said, but once threaten its is instinct to defend ones self, and that is what i did. But am i people aggressive, heck NO

after reading thru this entire post, ive come across countless different variations as to what dog aggression really is.

I feel inorder to even debate the topic of DOG AGGRESSION one must first 
DEFINE what dog aggression really is.

So what really is dog aggression? Protecting ones self when feeling threatened? Attacking out of no where for no reason?
attacking when provocted? feeling the urge to constantly maul other furred beings?


----------



## koonce272 (Sep 16, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> Yeah I should have been more specific when using the amstaff as an alternative but they are def at least in these days a much different dog than they were back when. I just don't get this whole thing I would never own a dog I was not comfortable with. That's the problem people want so bad to change these dogs instead of just loving them for what they are. You can still have a da apbt that lives peacefully in society.
> 
> It's when you give these type of dogs to the wrong people who think they can turn their DA apbt loose in a dog park that causes the problem. This breed would be in much better shape if folks just came to terms with the breeds history and realized that some things you just can't change and must deal with them responsibly instead of trying to convince other people your dog is not what the media says it is. By taking risks to prove points that goes against the breeds nature your adding to the existing problem at hand. Our breed is special in it's own way they are not like every other dog and require certain care to make sure we don't have any accidents.


couldnt agree more. I love my dog, and wouldnt change a thing.

This is not a breed for someone who just wants a dog. I bought my dog for many many reasons, and turned down other breeds for many different reasons.


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

koonce272 said:


> I feel inorder to even debate the topic of DOG AGGRESSION one must first
> DEFINE what dog aggression really is.


Dog aggression is aggression towards other dogs. It is not defending oneself when backed into a corner. It's not using displays to scare away a strange dog. It is not protecting resources. It is fighting another dog because they _want to_.


----------



## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)




----------



## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah I get that alot here lately


----------



## Mr. Bleezy (Apr 4, 2008)

koonce272 said:


> agreed, but i feel that that is the nature of any beast, even HUMANS.
> 
> its a fight or flight response and it in any species.
> 
> ...


well not exactly. the way a pit fights is quite different from most other breeds. when it fights it is relentless. it won't quit. it may just ignore other dogs trying to start a fight with it, but when it clicks, it just clicks. a pit fit is unlike anything i have ever seen. scary in fact. it's not just any dog fighting. the breed is specifically designed to do this till death. it will not stop unless you can stop it yourself. mind you, that isn't always so easy. if the other dog gets hurt, your dog, you, and the breed is put in jeopardy. it's better to accept this as fact if you own one. dog aggression is dog aggression. there are different traits that make up these dogs, but if it is dog aggressive then it doesn't like dogs.


----------



## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

Mr. Bleezy said:


> well not exactly. the way a pit fights is quite different from most other breeds. when it fights it is relentless. it won't quit. it may just ignore other dogs trying to start a fight with it, but when it clicks, it just clicks. a pit fit is unlike anything i have ever seen. scary in fact. it's not just any dog fighting. the breed is specifically designed to do this till death. it will not stop unless you can stop it yourself. mind you, that isn't always so easy. if the other dog gets hurt, your dog, you, and the breed is put in jeopardy. it's better to accept this as fact if you own one. dog aggression is dog aggression. there are different traits that make up these dogs, but if it is dog aggressive then it doesn't like dogs.


i agree with you there, at the shelter ive seen dogs fight....and when pits fight....its different. We had a male/female combo that usually played great together. However, I watched their play turn into full battle, and came runnin with the hose. Luckily nobody was badly hurt, I think they just need a family, any dog can go crazy at the pound..... I feel so bad for them I wish I could adopt ALL of them


----------



## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

*Here's two DA dogs that got along fine till one day they had enough of each other, now they have to be separated at all time's...*


----------



## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

ya....we usually try to test them through a fence, then we can move to leash meeting, then off-lease....these two had been offlease together many many times with no probs. Also, (sry since this has nothing to do with the topic guys, just wanted to share "as the shelter turns" my little soap opera) anyway we had a guy adopt a pitbull, BEautiful girl, i loved this dog. Well apparently he leaves her all day with his dog, and guess what happens.....luckily it was only a fight and neither ended up dead. People just dont seem to get it when we say, "this isnt a golden retreiver, they love _people_ more than dogs....and you should never leave two dogs unattended in the first place". sorry total meaningless story, just thought i'd share :-D


----------



## RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" (Aug 7, 2008)

juicy thread


----------



## Julie K (Oct 15, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> Dog aggression is aggression towards other dogs. It is not defending oneself when backed into a corner. It's not using displays to scare away a strange dog. It is not protecting resources. It is fighting another dog because they _want to_.


Aggression is a chemical occurrence of the brain. Because of its history, the breed probably has a genetic propensity to surrendering to adrenalin; it becomes an addiction, one with supremely self rewarding properties. Mentally, they are achieving invulnerability, tunnel visioned on the task, impervious to pain or injury, and surpassing any normal inhibitory barriers.

Julie K


----------



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

........................................


----------



## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Julie K said:


> Aggression is a chemical occurrence of the brain. Because of its history, the breed probably has a genetic propensity to surrendering to adrenalin; it becomes an addiction, one with supremely self rewarding properties. Mentally, they are achieving invulnerability, tunnel visioned on the task, impervious to pain or injury, and surpassing any normal inhibitory barriers.
> 
> Julie K


Leave it to Julie to come along and say something that sounds both smart and kinda cool at the same time. :clap: I think the self-rewarding portion of your post is the most telling and important to members who think they can train out the dog-aggression. You've got to come with something pretty lucrative to defeat a self-rewarding behavior.


----------



## college_dude (Oct 16, 2008)

__________


----------



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Julie K said:


> Aggression is a chemical occurrence of the brain. Because of its history, the breed probably has a genetic propensity to surrendering to adrenalin; it becomes an addiction, one with supremely self rewarding properties. Mentally, they are achieving invulnerability, tunnel visioned on the task, impervious to pain or injury, and surpassing any normal inhibitory barriers.
> 
> Julie K


Dang.... :clap:


----------



## koonce272 (Sep 16, 2008)

i agree with a lot of these last post. Not everything can be trained out.

But still everything everyone is saying about dogs having a good play time on numerous occasions and then an agruement/fight, well that happens in all animals and again, even humans. Disagreements happen, machoness/dominence starts fights in every aspect of the animal kingdom. 

i dont feel it is just this breed, but i do agree with the part that when it does happen its not like two goldens going at it and it could be bad.

This is where being a smart respossible owner who KNOWS your dog comes into play.
Not every dog is the same.


----------



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

koonce272 said:


> to those who say u should have bought an Amstaff if you wanted a non da dog.
> 
> so you basically just said you bought your dog because it is da.
> 
> ...


DA is a genetic trait.

Dog fighting is something the dog "learns" and "trains" for.

The DA is desired in the fighting dog, but the DA is going to remain even if you don't fight your dogs.

Your beagle wasn't bred knowing how to hunt, but it was bred with a good nose. The dog needs the good sense of smell to be a good hunter. Even if you didn't hunt with your dog, it would still have the sense of smell.

And, no one is saying that DA is desired, it is just a part of the dogs that we have learned to live with. We got these dogs because of other desirable traits they possess, and we deal with the DA. With less DA dogs, you usually also have less drive, determination, and stamina. I'm not saying that's always the case, but there is a correlation.


----------



## LoveMyBullies (Nov 11, 2008)

Well the thing about DA is that it has always been a characteristic that was specific to the breed. Pits are battle dogs, even though today they are used for that specific purpose. I think that if you start trying to breed the aggression out then its going to alter the breed. I feel that as long as an owner is responsible and knows what they are going to be dealin with then there shouldnt be a problem. I mean I have a colby bred female and she gets along fine with the dogs she grew up with and would be fine as long as she is supervised.


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

bahamutt99 said:


> If you've got a problem with the discussion, you don't have to participate. I'm getting tired of you coming in and copping attitude when new threads get started to discuss side-topics. _*I*_ want to talk about it, and clearly others find the discussion stimulating as well. This is a discussion forum, which means we discuss things. If you find that disagreeable, I'm sure there are more important and noteworthy things you can be doing with your time. But there was no reason for that post, other than to be denigrating. Quit doing it. Thank you.


I could care less what youre getting tired of. I was making a joke trying to loosen things up around here. Each person has their own opinion and thats fine. I don't recall discussing a single "side-topic". Every post i've made has to do with the thread that the post was posted in. Thank you.


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

smokey_joe said:


> DA is a genetic trait.


Not always true.



> but the DA is going to remain even if you don't fight your dogs.


Not always true. We've rescued many apbt's that came from a fighting situation. They are not always DA. We dont fight our dogs and most of ours are not DA.



> With less DA dogs, you usually also have less drive, determination, and stamina. I'm not saying that's always the case, but there is a correlation.


Defiently not always the case. We have several examples of this being false.


----------



## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

ForPits&Giggles said:


> Thats not aggression, thats protection. Big difference.


VERY MUCH AGREE!


----------



## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> Just an info tidbit, not sure if you knew or not but when dogs were matched in the pit the handlers were right there with them. They would often move in and separate the dogs when they came to a lock. They would move in during battle and the dogs did not bite the handlers the majority of the time. The dogs know the difference.


yea ofk, i knew that one, but the difference imo, would be that the dog handlers back then knew what they were doing per say, as to someone now days who see's two dogs fighting and just jumps rite on in the middle of 'em expecting everything to be kosher. that's the direction i was going with that..


----------



## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

Julie K said:


> Aggression is a chemical occurrence of the brain. Because of its history, the breed probably has a genetic propensity to surrendering to adrenalin; it becomes an addiction, one with supremely self rewarding properties. Mentally, they are achieving invulnerability, tunnel visioned on the task, impervious to pain or injury, and surpassing any normal inhibitory barriers.
> 
> Julie K


so in other words animals can have the same chemical imbalances as humans? umm...


----------



## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

*Not always true. *

I think it is. It may not be the only factor, but genetics do always play a role.

*Not always true. We've rescued many apbt's that came from a fighting situation. They are not always DA. We dont fight our dogs and most of ours are not DA. *

Maybe you were able to rescue those dogs because the tendency to be DA or not IS genetic. If genetics were not involved, any dog that had ever been abused would be doomed. You see, if actions were completely based on experiences, and you're dealing with animals that have been abused, then the dogs actions are going to be completely based on prior experience. But, since genetics also plays a role:

genetics + new experience = rehabilitation.

*Defiently not always the case. We have several examples of this being false. *

I stated in my post this was not always the case. Of course it's not.

Nature vs nurture is an age old argument, and personality and behavior is strongly influenced by both. I don't have the knowledge to answer which plays a bigger role. My guess would be that they both have a pretty equal influence on behavior.


----------



## shadowwolf (Dec 5, 2008)

No, the DA in the breed is what makes the breed. Should people manage it better, heck yes. But getting an AST? I've seen some pretty hot ASTs out there - some that are just as hot as gamebred APBTs...so, that may/may not work in someone's favor.

Dog parks and other off-leash settings which set the dog up for failure are just asking for a newspaper headline. If you want to take your dog, fine and dandy, but knowing the breed, I personally won't risk it.


----------

