# Neutering Y/N



## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Ok. So I have a question. There's this dog(pit). He's un altered. He barks and barks and barks,and I've seen him growl and bite at people.
Not I know the owners are trying to help the dog...But really...
Is it because he's not neutered?

I honestly think it is,but I'm no vet tech/behaviorist.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

I dont think so, barking is just talking he is trying to communicate to anyone who will listen and biting people is a mental defect IMO unless it is dominance maybe then it could be his balls but prob just a dog that isnt getting attention properly and one that should not even be allowed to take another breath if he is being aggressive to humans.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

He seems like he's starting to get the sit part down.. I don't get to close to him,cause I saw him growl and bark/snap at a guy in class today.

He's a loud dog...I can't concentrate,and it stresses Bruno out,but he's starting to ignore it.

I don't want to say anything,cause I know that they're in the class to better him...I just hope it works..I dunno. I see to much of my other dog in this one...Only he's a bit worse,and that's kinda scary.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

I cant believe the trainer isnt saying anything, I wish more trainers knew that pit bulls should be put down for showing aggression but that is a whole other topic.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Funny you say that,cause I thought they would too. It's a class that specializes in Pit training, they're a rescue group.
He seems to be fond of women though,not so much guys,the dog sniffed my hand earlier today,and didn't do anything,but it still made me a bit nervous.

I don't like Bruno to close to him, don't trust him at all. The trainers just say he's excited,and they keep telling the owners that he's improving...I don't really see it yet,besides the being able to sit,and occasionally be quiet(for like 2 sec)


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

This is a debatable topic... Many Pit Bull lovers won't put down due to HA and swear HA is workable and "curable".. Cesar Milan for one as far as I have seen, most here hate him but that's another story...


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

To me, if a dog bites someone on purpose,with malicious intent, it can't be trusted again.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

It definitely is a hot topic, but I applaud the owners for at least trying to work with the dog. It can be a gamble.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

I cant applaud anyone for keeping a HA pit bull alive longer than it takes to drive to the vet, its an accident waiting to happen and the breed as a whole suffers for it.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

gamer said:


> I cant applaud anyone for keeping a HA pit bull alive longer than it takes to drive to the vet, its an accident waiting to happen and the breed as a whole suffers for it.


I hear that. Better a headstone than a headline. IMO it doesn't have all that much to do with neutering either. Being intact may be a small contributing factor but I don't think it's the main factor.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

That is why it is debatable. I don't know the circumstances surrounding this particular dog and neither do you. The owners have taken the dog to a qualified pitbull trainer for assistance. I think that before any knee jerk reactions are made, the owners should assess the situation with the trainer. Perhaps, in this instance, you are correct, but it is too easy a call to make from your living room without having all of the facts. Now, there is no debate when a dog has been determined to be HA. That dog should be put down---sad but true.


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## blackjer (May 15, 2010)

Xiahko said:


> Ok. So I have a question. There's this dog(pit). He's un altered. He barks and barks and barks,and I've seen him growl and bite at people.
> Not I know the owners are trying to help the dog...But really...
> Is it because he's not neutered?
> 
> I honestly think it is,but I'm no vet tech/behaviorist.


Do you ever wonder what those people think of you and your dog?


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

My pups father does not want to get Gargamel fixed. Its a constant battle I am trying to win, lol. Gargamel does not have any behavioral issues and he is awesome. I hope to convince his dad we should do it, but as for the barking and biting, no, not cause he isnt fixed, he just isn't trained!

I know they are for the most part more aggressive when not altered, but its all in each dogs personality, I think.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Neutering has no effect on the true temperament of the dog, it may help with some behavior issues but I do not think that is the problem. Now a dog could have issues like dominance but that will not be fixed by neutering the dog. It is hard to say what is going on with the dog if I cannot see it in person but many trainers have no real clue on how to deal with extreme behavior issues or DA/HA. If the trainer is ignoring the behavior or not correcting it then they have no clue what they are doing. You do not let behavior like that go unchecked. Now it is hard to say if it is a temperament issues or just a dog who was never taught biting is not allowed. If you allow a dog to get away with those behaviors then they think they are ok and that is how they will express themselves.
I hate it when I hear ppl say to PTS without knowing the whole story. A dog could bit or snap at someone and not need to be PTS just need training. Then you have dogs who are truly HA that is different and they should be put to sleep.

Unless you have all the facts or know what your talking about when it comes to dog training and behavior saying this dog we are talking about needs to be PTS is an ignorant statement. Ignorant because you do not know all the facts and you cannot observe the dogs behavior in person. Now the dog could very well have a screw lose and be HA to me it sounds like the dog needs someone who knows what they are doing.

I have seen a lot of trainers who call themselves bully trainers and they are worthless when it comes to dog training.

So if the trainer they are working with is not correcting the behavior my suggestion for them is to find a real trainer to evaluate the dog and fix the behavior. If a good trainer thinks the dog I HA then yes it should be PTS.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> That is why it is debatable. I don't know the circumstances surrounding this particular dog and neither do you. The owners have taken the dog to a qualified pitbull trainer for assistance. I think that before any knee jerk reactions are made, the owners should assess the situation with the trainer. Perhaps, in this instance, you are correct, but it is too easy a call to make from your living room without having all of the facts. Now, there is no debate when a dog has been determined to be HA. That dog should be put down---sad but true.


IMO any pit bull that bites, snaps, growls or snarles at a human will be put down in this house. I do not put up with it and either should any other person but they do we all so what we think is best and for me that is eliminating any chance of a dog becoming a headline or harming a person, pit bulls have taken abuse and never showed signs of aggression and that is how it should be nothing should bother them.


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## beccaboo (Dec 27, 2009)

this dog is noisy and annoying but i didn't see him snap at anybody. i did see him growl n bark at a guy walkin by, but i know plenty of pits that react to men because of history of abuse. he does ok with the man that owns him, but truly i think he is just another rescue boy. seems to me that he had no socialization whatsoever for a long time and i wouldn't doubt he was one of those pitbulls that just got left outside when he past the cute cuddly stage. neutering may have curbed some of it as it is extra hormones in the body but he really is just like an unruly child kicking and screaming and throwing a fit for attention. i will say this tho- without that other dog that was there last time- that brindle mutt thing with dew claws on all fours, Mr. Thor (the kicking and screaming pit mix) did much better and was much more quiet without a dog barkin at him and eggin him on to bark more...


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I understand where you are coming from, I really do, but those are some very high standards you're holding these dogs to. I would venture to say that alot of people have had their dog bark and/or growl at a stranger (any door to door salesman will do LOL!) and not considered it an invitation to the vet to be PTS. My sister's dog bared his teeth at me while I visited her. Something didn't feel right about this. Turned out, after taking the dog to vet, that her dog had a broken bone in his tail. To this day we have no clue as to how this happened, but it was his way of communicating to me. Again, I do NOT condone HA but PTS should only be an option after both sides of the situation have been rationally dealt with. Life is too precious to end on a snappy judgement IMO. This has been a very good topic for discussion and demonstrates the need for forums like this one.


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## blackjer (May 15, 2010)

gamer said:


> IMO any pit bull that bites, snaps, growls or snarles at a human will be put down in this house. I do not put up with it and either should any other person but they do we all so what we think is best and for me that is eliminating any chance of a dog becoming a headline or harming a person, pit bulls have taken abuse and never showed signs of aggression and that is how it should be nothing should bother them.


Its safe to say that when a stranger comes knocking on the door your dog runs to a corner without a noise?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

blackjer said:


> Its safe to say that when a stranger comes knocking on the door your dog runs to a corner without a noise?


Nope all my apbts always greeted people, no barking no jumping just was happy to have someone visit. If he ran to the corner and cowered (thus showing unsound temperament imo same outcome as if he growled) barking at you to tell you someone is there is different then barking AT someone in an aggressive way and if someone cant tell the different time to educate themselves on dog communication.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> I understand where you are coming from, I really do, but those are some very high standards you're holding these dogs to. I would venture to say that alot of people have had their dog bark and/or growl at a stranger (any door to door salesman will do LOL!) and not considered it an invitation to the vet to be PTS. My sister's dog bared his teeth at me while I visited her. Something didn't feel right about this. Turned out, after taking the dog to vet, that her dog had a broken bone in his tail. To this day we have no clue as to how this happened, but it was his way of communicating to me. Again, I do NOT condone HA but PTS should only be an option after both sides of the situation have been rationally dealt with. Life is too precious to end on a snappy judgement IMO. This has been a very good topic for discussion and demonstrates the need for forums like this one.


See this is where todays owners and the owners of yesteryear differ, and in my opinion where the breed went downhill. He has a broken tail, well the dogs of yesteryear could have 2 broken legs a chewed up face and in huge pain yet still lick peoples hands and never show aggression, man if only we had the stable dogs of yesteryear we wouldnt be facing BSL


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

Xiahko said:


> Ok. So I have a question. There's this dog(pit). He's un altered. He barks and barks and barks,and I've seen him growl and bite at people.
> Not I know the owners are trying to help the dog...But really...
> Is it because he's not neutered?
> 
> I honestly think it is,but I'm no vet tech/behaviorist.


Sorry for offending if you do not agree. You not being a vet does not make your opinion any less valid. A vet recently told someone how messed up and "inbred "a dog was because it had the same dog several places in his pedigree (which is very common and does not make the dog bad AT ALL).

Cutting a dog does not make him a new dog. Many get DA after being cut (ie if a male dog is "fixed", he goes after males not fixed - same with females - if they cant have pups and another female can, they do not like it).

First off a human aggressive "Pit Bull" should be put down in my opinion and he most likely is not a pure bred.

Pure bred APBTs' have been bred for hundreds of years and any human aggressive dog would put down, or at the least would not be bred. This breed is to smart and strong to me mean. When people ask me for a guard dog, I tell them to but another breed.


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## blackjer (May 15, 2010)

gamer said:


> Nope all my apbts always greeted people, no barking no jumping just was happy to have someone visit. If he ran to the corner and cowered (thus showing unsound temperament imo same outcome as if he growled) barking at you to tell you someone is there is different then barking AT someone in an aggressive way and if someone cant tell the different time to educate themselves on dog communication.


Your dogs dont bark at anyone? I dont believe that.


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## Shiver (May 12, 2010)

on barking:
I have met a few people who have very well trained dogs.. My cousin is a dog trainer. Her dogs are so obedient that it is a little scary to tell the truth. Unless they are in play mode they remind me a little bit of robots. 

Anyhow, I think a most people train dogs not to bark or jump up when someone comes over. The not jumping up is just good manners. I think most of the active dogs who work with their owners don't bark when I visit. If I come ring someones door and the dog goes nuts with barking I assume the owner doesn't have good control over it. 

I think it has a lot to do with the breed genetics and the owner. 

As for to fix or not to fix:
I think most animals should be fixed. In the case of the OP dog I think fixing the dog wouldn't hurt. The loss of some of those extra hormones might make him a little easier to train. It doesn't sound like the trainer is a good trainer though. If the dog was fixed and still the owner can't work with him then maybe he would start looking into a new owner, different trainer, putting the dog down and so on. In the mean time, it wouldn't be able to breed. 

It is funny the last two animals I personally knew that were put down for HA was an unfixed Akita who had little training and exercise. And a gelding (horse) who was about 6 years old. The Akita, I think could have been helped since I think the attack was preventable. The gelding I was glad it was put down. It had been badly torn up as a baby on a barbwire fence and could not regain it's trust of humans. Horses are big on imprinting.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

blackjer said:


> Do you ever wonder what those people think of you and your dog?


No, actually I don't. Cause my dog just sits there.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Becca, Yeah. That other dog was way worse then Thor. Like I said, Thor has learned to be quiet for a little bit,and he's learning, he's just stubborn like Bruno. Mr. I'm gonna lay here and do ****.
As for the snapping, it was a guy that came through the door. Thor lunged at him and snapped,(it could have been just barking,but it looked like a snap) then growled. I was right there with Bruno, that's why I saw it, since I was training on that side.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

blackjer said:


> Your dogs dont bark at anyone? I dont believe that.


That's not what she said.


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## SweetMelissa (Apr 23, 2010)

I disagree also on the putting them down part. Just the sheer willingness all of them I have ever encountered show in trying to please their humans, kind of gives me the impression that most are 'curable'. And Cesar does prove that - time and time again. Keeping the faith, I guess... Sorry, it's the optomist in me, Gamer. Your opinions are yours, and I would never fault or condemn you for them. 

I am often nervous around 'uncut' males. Mostly, the little squirrly ones! I think that it does tend to make them more dominant and excitable. And it never fails that their human counterparts 'ignore' the SAME bad behavior that a 65+ lb pibble would NEVER get away with. I think that unless that dog is well papered, and you plan to dedicate a serious amount of time and cheddar to making those pups healthy and screening potential owner's so that you feel that each one of those pup's go to responsible homes, without a threat of winding up ANOTHER shelter dog (if they are lucky), then fix him! His health will be much better protected. I am not sure that will directly affect his HA, but it will eliminate alot of potential cancers, and unused energy (mating) that he probably won't be able to satisfy. Sometimes that is what is exhibited in both HA and DA, from what I have read to date. Pent up, un-wasted energy.
Just my two cents...


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Most people here hate Cesar XD
I don't agree with some of the stuff he does. But he has helped some people.
I don't agree with the throwing the dog onto it's back.


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## SweetMelissa (Apr 23, 2010)

Well, I feel that there is something to learn from him. Do I strictly live by his word? No. And I have many of you here to thank for that. I have learned much more about my breed from all of you, even though he is considered the APBT's champion in the media world. I do feel he can teach you alot when it comes to learning to read your dog, and more iimportantly, learning to read a dog that is NOT your own. He does seem to have an uncanny knack at animal husbandry, so to speak. Alot of the behaviors that he shows are common issues, and sometimes recognizing a behavior, and correcting said behavior, before it becomes a problem is something to commend him for. I do think there are some things I have been able to do just that where Bailey is concerned. Mainly, I just like to kind of take bits of what he practices, and see how they apply with my girl. Everybody is different, just like their dogs.  My dog is so submissive that if I put her on her back, she just automatically expects a belly rub. One of his points that I do support is Exercise, Discipline, and Affection, in that order. I try daily to practice that, and when I am successful, so is Bailey. 
I didn't mean any harm in my opinion, and wasn't trying to toot Cesar's horn. He has plenty of folks to do that for him. lol I hope I didn't raise anyone's hackles.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I still don't think even Cesar can cure my MoMo.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I find nothing wrong in your opinion. To each his own.


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## SweetMelissa (Apr 23, 2010)

I am glad that I didn't offend - not my intent AT ALL. Just trying to participate. And this is one of those issues I do find interesting and feel there is much to still learn about. heehee. Xiahko - Your kids are beautiful! Maybe Cesar can't cure Momo - but I bet you can. ;0) Again, it's the eternal optimist in me!


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

There's no doubt that this issue has varying opinions. I don't see the world as black and white as others do, but I think we all agree that HA is undesirable. Now, how we arrive at that conclusion ( the means to the end) is where we differ. Certainly the breed and the breeders have changed over the years, but I would like to think that the decision making that goes on when PTS has remained the same. There's alot of "tough talk" in the pit bull world but every dog deserves the same fair shake as you or I IMO.


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## SweetMelissa (Apr 23, 2010)

:goodpost: I concur, St Francis. :goodpost:


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm trying to cure MoMo. She's getting there. She even walked right passed two big black men, in the hallway today, and didn't even try to eat them! usually she would be barking at them and lunging. 
When she lunges,she doesn't have the intent to bite,it's just to scare them off. She got loose once, and I was like OH &*%&^. But she stopped right in front of them, and just kept barking.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Thank you, SweetMelissa! And props to Xiahko for starting a very provocative convo!


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## cyconhis70 (May 26, 2010)

Imo unless a dog is sick PTS is not an option. I believe someone with that attitude should not have an animal of any sort.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

cyconhis70 said:


> Imo unless a dog is sick PTS is not an option. I believe someone with that attitude should not have an animal of any sort.


The APBT is a special breed that is very family orientated. Once people allow a mean dog to reproduce, it ruins the hundreds of years of temperament testing in creating a game bred family dog able to take down a bull with ease. This is the main problem in crating a new type of "pit bull" who is not as friendly as the ones throughout history. Once a mixed breed pit bits someone the ban pit bull hype goes full force.

If you have a mixed breed mean pit, or a mean pit, you are endangering the rights of all of us. However, to each there own. I just hope the general public does not get exposed to unstable fighting breeds (that is a big part of there history - the APBT is not just a fighting breed - but if an APBT bites a human - that is the only part people talk about - even though the fact that the pure breads were fought with their owners with in inches of the dogs - makes them so they do not bite humans - if an APBT would turn and bite a human in the ring, he was put down - because of this any human aggressive dogs were culled.

Many APBTs' were culled in history to create the human friendly dogs we have now. Would you let them die in vain?


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## Shiver (May 12, 2010)

We can't force people to fix dogs. All we can do it give advice and hope for the best. Different people value different qualities in a dog. While most people feel that HA is not a desired trait not everyone agrees. It is unfortunate but then again so are a lot of the health issues that are breed into dogs.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

NorCalTim said:


> Sorry for offending if you do not agree. You not being a vet does not make your opinion any less valid. A vet recently told someone how messed up and "inbred "a dog was because it had the same dog several places in his pedigree (which is very common and does not make the dog bad AT ALL).
> 
> Cutting a dog does not make him a new dog. Many get DA after being cut (ie if a male dog is "fixed", he goes after males not fixed - same with females - if they cant have pups and another female can, they do not like it).
> 
> ...


Sigh you have not been around purebred pits long have you? This breed is becoming more and more unstable, and purebred pits are biting all the time. Cheryl one of the top breeders in the world had a dog maul her kennel help so bad that woman is scared of pit bulls now. Yes she put the mom down but the pups got to live on, hell why destroy such money making champions? Sad but true! I love this breed but we are going ot lose it if we dont get tough on what we expect*We need to do right by society before we can expect society to do right by our dogs.*



blackjer said:


> Your dogs dont bark at anyone? I dont believe that.


I have had 1 count it 1 AKC/UKC dog barked at someone, I thought it was nothing and brushed it off, 2 weeks later he lunged and snapped at my husband that dog was dead an hour later, before that I had 1 apbt that was showing subtle signs but I just didnt put to much into the eye shifting and other subtle signs, he put my husband in the hospital for a very long time with 1 bite to his arm, he now is missing the muscle meat on his for arm forever all because I wasnt diligent in seeing the signs and destroying the dog, if I had not been there it could have been worse. This is why I am dead set on any sign of aggression towards humans the pit bull has to go!



SweetMelissa said:


> I disagree also on the putting them down part. Just the sheer willingness all of them I have ever encountered show in trying to please their humans, kind of gives me the impression that most are 'curable'. And Cesar does prove that - time and time again. Keeping the faith, I guess... Sorry, it's the optomist in me, Gamer. Your opinions are yours, and I would never fault or condemn you for them.


see my reply right before this quote, its not funny or a joke when a 45 pound dog get a hold of our tender flesh, giving excuses and feeling sorry for them is what is wrong, this is the best breed in the world if only we would hold them to the standard we use too. A tv show isnt going to show us the dogs that fall back to the behavior or that he cant fix that is not good for ratings.



Xiahko said:


> I still don't think even Cesar can cure my MoMo.


I can :roll:



Saint Francis said:


> There's no doubt that this issue has varying opinions. I don't see the world as black and white as others do, but I think we all agree that HA is undesirable. Now, how we arrive at that conclusion ( the means to the end) is where we differ. Certainly the breed and the breeders have changed over the years, but I would like to think that the decision making that goes on when PTS has remained the same. There's alot of "tough talk" in the pit bull world but every dog deserves the same fair shake as you or I IMO.


Nope people think that PTS is cruel lets look at it this way, take a very fearful dog at the pound that is just terrified of everything, is it fair that this dog lives in fear its whole life because we want to be humane?



cyconhis70 said:


> Imo unless a dog is sick PTS is not an option. I believe someone with that attitude should not have an animal of any sort.


Really? Well these folks would love your opinion People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA): The animal rights organization of course they want to eliminate pit bulls for their own good lol


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Shiver said:


> We can't force people to fix dogs. All we can do it give advice and hope for the best. Different people value different qualities in a dog. While most people feel that HA is not a desired trait not everyone agrees. It is unfortunate but then again so are a lot of the health issues that are breed into dogs.


health issues dont cause BSL so its a bit different then HA dogs.


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## Shiver (May 12, 2010)

gamer said:


> health issues dont cause BSL so its a bit different then HA dogs.


Not to the people breeding, which is my point. If you are breeding for a specific temperament or look then for many people that is what matters. Do you really think the people breeding HA dogs worry about BSL?

Of course, they don't.

Not arguing your point about how the breeding of HA dogs is a terrible thing. You just have to keep in mind that people have different agendas. Finding a way to explain to the problems to someone who thinks HA is desirable trait is going to take a different tacit then appeals to people who loved and respected the breeds past.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Shiver said:


> Not to the people breeding, which is my point. If you are breeding for a specific temperament or look then for many people that is what matters. Do you really think the people breeding HA dogs worry about BSL?
> 
> Of course, they don't.
> 
> Not arguing your point about how the breeding of HA dogs is a terrible thing. You just have to keep in mind that people have different agendas. Finding a way to explain to the problems to someone who thinks HA is desirable trait is going to take a different tacit then appeals to people who loved and respected the breeds past.


Oh your talking about people intentionally breeding for the HA trait yes there are still people in the world who are retarded lol. I just wish more people could see the damage the dog can do if it is HA and gets out, even looking past the physical damage but the damage it does to the breed and all those responsible owners who risk losing their dogs.


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## Shiver (May 12, 2010)

gamer said:


> Oh your talking about people intentionally breeding for the HA trait yes there are still people in the world who are retarded lol. I just wish more people could see the damage the dog can do if it is HA and gets out, even looking past the physical damage but the damage it does to the breed and all those responsible owners who risk losing their dogs.


Yah, there are a lot of people who at some point got the idea that a DA dog means aggressive. Which means HA is also an acceptable trait. So they consider that to be part of the breed and continue with it. They lump all aggressive behavior into one category. Ugh.

I feel like hitting my head against a wall sometimes. The dog that attacked me had attacked other people. The owners thought it's protectiveness were great traits. They had bred that dog a number of times. The Only reason they killed the dog after it attacked me is the difference between it attacking a girl from a 'rich' family and it attacking a migrant worker or a someone else just temporary visiting the farm to work with the animals there.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Shiver said:


> Yah, there are a lot of people who at some point got the idea that a DA dog means aggressive. Which means HA is also an acceptable trait. So they consider that to be part of the breed and continue with it. They lump all aggressive behavior into one category. Ugh.
> 
> I feel like hitting my head against a wall sometimes. The dog that attacked me had attacked other people. The owners thought it's protectiveness were great traits. They had bred that dog a number of times. The Only reason they killed the dog after it attacked me is the difference between it attacking a girl from a 'rich' family and it attacking a migrant worker or a someone else just temporary visiting the farm to work with the animals there.


:flush::flush::flush::flush::flush::flush: Nice people huh lol


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

gamer said:


> Sigh you have not been around purebred pits long have you? This breed is becoming more and more unstable, and purebred pits are biting all the time. Cheryl one of the top breeders in the world had a dog maul her kennel help so bad that woman is scared of pit bulls now. Yes she put the mom down but the pups got to live on, hell why destroy such money making champions? Sad but true! I love this breed but we are going ot lose it if we dont get tough on what we expect*We need to do right by society before we can expect society to do right by our dogs.*
> 
> I have had 1 count it 1 AKC/UKC dog barked at someone, I thought it was nothing and brushed it off, 2 weeks later he lunged and snapped at my husband that dog was dead an hour later, before that I had 1 apbt that was showing subtle signs but I just didnt put to much into the eye shifting and other subtle signs, he put my husband in the hospital for a very long time with 1 bite to his arm, he now is missing the muscle meat on his for arm forever all because I wasnt diligent in seeing the signs and destroying the dog, if I had not been there it could have been worse. This is why I am dead set on any sign of aggression towards humans the pit bull has to go!
> 
> ...


Hi guys! Heavy thread. Ha ha. I have had a few more protective, but never HA.

Here is my foundation dame. Heavy on the Sorrells (well known to be great family dogs). She has baby sat my friend 4 daughters (outside playing) for hrs. while the wife was in the house.

Thanks for the example. Your friend is breeding show stock.
When you call a UKC dog an APBT,

OK

I do not want to talk crap about pets or ...... (many UKC, AKC, ABK, ect dogs are super)

ADBA working dogs are not UKC show PR dogs.

A good APBT can and should be part of the family. In doing so he should protect his Family.

Family Dog Takes Bullet to Save Family - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

New staff crosses bite people more often. A show dog (with all PR in the pedigree) is a Staff. Dogs from past working stock (pre 1976) come from working stock.

Working stock do not bite people unless they are working and protecting the family. And, yes, I have been around the breed for a while. Most breeders do not even know what in APBT is. Sad but true.

I had some one email me about his human aggressive "Pit Bull". It turns out, he had an American Bully and did not realize there was a difference.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

I had a hard time following your post but the dog that put my hubby in the hospital was not UKC nor AKC he was a well bred ADBA dog so is what you are saying that no adba dogs are man biters?


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

gamer said:


> I had a hard time following your post but the dog that put my hubby in the hospital was not UKC nor AKC he was a well bred ADBA dog so is what you are saying that no adba dogs are man biters?


Yes. 
Or they should be put down. (like yours should have)
My post was hard to read.
Good working stock do not bite people, or they would not be working stock. Working stock infers you cull man biters.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

NorCalTim said:


> Yes.
> Or they should be put down. (like yours should have)
> My post was hard to read.
> Good working stock do not bite people, or they would not be working stock. Working stock infers you cull man biters.


Those dogs of mine are dead were dead no more than an hour after they did that. My ADBA dog was a well bred dog. So are you saying Zebo was not a good working dog in his day? I use Zebo because he is well known. He was a damn good working dog in his day and a damn big man biter.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

RE:Cheryl one of the top breeders in the world 
obviously not
I what are the peds in her dogs?
Snooty, Bubba-Boe, Rascal?


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

gamer said:


> Those dogs of mine are dead were dead no more than an hour after they did that. My ADBA dog was a well bred dog. So are you saying Zebo was not a good working dog in his day? I use Zebo because he is well known. He was a damn good working dog in his day and a damn big man biter.


Not many were man biters.
They were put down.
I suggest you work with stock you are happy with.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

NorCalTim said:


> ADBA working dogs are not UKC show PR dogs.
> 
> New staff crosses bite people more often. A show dog (with all PR in the pedigree) is a Staff. Dogs from past working stock (pre 1976) come from working stock.
> 
> Working stock do not bite people unless they are working and protecting the family.


That's a lot of dangerous generalizing. A "UKC show 'PR'" dog can be the exact same dog as an "ADBA working" dog. Take three generations of ADBA dogs and register them UKC (at least prior to 4/30/2010) and you would have instant "UKC show 'PR'" dogs. One of my dogs is 'PR' (and therefore a Staff by your post) and no more likely to bite than my dog whose topside is all gamebred stuff.

"Working stock do not bite people..." is a dangerous fallacy to go throwing around. There are tons of old-school gamedogs we can discuss that were biters, some of them malicious biters who would go after a human with the same intensity as another dog.



NorCalTim said:


> Not many were man biters.
> They were put down.


That's a different statement than what you said above. Our breed has less man-biters than many, yes. But saying that all ADBA dogs are awesome and safe and that all UKC 'PR' dogs are more likely to bite because they're Staffs is flat wrong.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

NorCalTim said:


> RE:Cheryl one of the top breeders in the world
> obviously not
> I what are the peds in her dogs?
> Snooty, Bubba-Boe, Rascal?


Oh lol I thought you were talking about my dogs. No hers are UKC I dont remember what bloodlines they are from but I would call them her bloodline since she has been doing it since like toe 70s or something like that.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I can :roll:

Dude, if you could help with anything I'd love you to death. I'm trying real hard. She's actually getting better! She didn't even bark at the people we passed in the hallway today,or the ones I passed a minute ago, by my door.

So she's getting there. If I PM-ed you some of the issues she's having,think you might have any ideas? I'm up to trying anything at this point, I'm tired of wasting money on "trainers"


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

gamer said:


> Really? Well these folks would love your opinion People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA): The animal rights organization of course they want to eliminate pit bulls for their own good lol


I &^%^$%^ HATE PETA!


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Once we get into this ukc ADB stuff...I go visit lala land. This stuff goes right past my head.
No idea what you're talking about~


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

gamer said:


> I cant applaud anyone for keeping a HA pit bull alive longer than it takes to drive to the vet, its an accident waiting to happen and the breed as a whole suffers for it.


I have to agree as I didn't put down a HA fast enough and it almost cost me.

As for neutering that leaves your dog with out being able to produce it does not change a dog behavior based on how it was raised. To many people think that altering is a quick fix to behavior issues and thats just not so.

As for barking it depends on the manner. My dogs bark at plenty of things and PEOPLE. Do they bite anyone? No. They are just loud mouths on occasion. You say anything nice or walk in the yard they shut up.



cyconhis70 said:


> Imo unless a dog is sick PTS is not an option. I believe someone with that attitude should not have an animal of any sort.


This is the worthless attitude that keeps HA dogs alive and causes a bad rep for the rest of the breed. People who can't except that some dogs have bad temperaments and should not be alive to cause harm to others.



NorCalTim said:


> New staff crosses bite people more often. A show dog (with all PR in the pedigree) is a Staff. Dogs from past working stock (pre 1976) come from working stock.


PR is a UKC title.... Amstaffs are AKC..... So how is a dog with all PR a Staff? Yes many UKC dogs have staff in their peds, but how does having some AKC amstaffs make it a Staff? Does having ADBA APBTS make it an APBT?

1/4 of my dogs peds comes from ADBA only dogs does that make them APBT? Does that change the rest of their ped? I don't think so.

So because my dogs have Staff in their peds they are more likely to bite rather than an ADBA dog that does nothing but spend its day out back on a chain till show time?

I don't see how you think what registry a dog is thru makes the difference to HA. Thats just dumb. Thats no different than saying a Blue dog is more unstable than a Red dog.

How a dog is bred ( not which registry it is bred thru) how a dog is raised and socialized as well as maintained makes the difference in a HA dog or not.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> That's a lot of dangerous generalizing. A "UKC show 'PR'" dog can be the exact same dog as an "ADBA working" dog. Take three generations of ADBA dogs and register them UKC (at least prior to 4/30/2010) and you would have instant "UKC show 'PR'" dogs. One of my dogs is 'PR' (and therefore a Staff by your post) and no more likely to bite than my dog whose topside is all gamebred stuff.
> 
> "Working stock do not bite people..." is a dangerous fallacy to go throwing around. There are tons of old-school gamedogs we can discuss that were biters, some of them malicious biters who would go after a human with the same intensity as another dog.
> 
> That's a different statement than what you said above. Our breed has less man-biters than many, yes. But saying that all ADBA dogs are awesome and safe and that all UKC 'PR' dogs are more likely to bite because they're Staffs is flat wrong.


I did get carried away.:roll:


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Xiahko said:


> I can :roll:
> 
> Dude, if you could help with anything I'd love you to death. I'm trying real hard. She's actually getting better! She didn't even bark at the people we passed in the hallway today,or the ones I passed a minute ago, by my door.
> 
> So she's getting there. If I PM-ed you some of the issues she's having,think you might have any ideas? I'm up to trying anything at this point, I'm tired of wasting money on "trainers"


Sure if you want couldn't hurt right?


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

I doubt it. She's already as Psycho as she can get. I don;t think she could get any worse. Well, unless she became HA.


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## fortyfootelf (Feb 2, 2010)

gamer said:


> I dont think so, barking is just talking he is trying to communicate to anyone who will listen and biting people is a mental defect IMO unless it is dominance maybe then it could be his balls but prob just a dog that isnt getting attention properly and one that should not even be allowed to take another breath if he is being aggressive to humans.


agreed:goodpost:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

gamer said:


> Originally Posted by gamer
> Cheryl one of the top breeders in the world had a dog maul her kennel help so bad that woman is scared of pit bulls now. Yes she put the mom down but the pups got to live on, hell why destroy such money making champions? Sad but true!


Can you clarify who your talking about? Last names please, I got several pms about this and if your going to make a big claim like that you need to make sure there is no confusion on who you are talking about.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> Can you clarify who your talking about? Last names please, I got several pms about this and if your going to make a big claim like that you need to make sure there is no confusion on who you are talking about.


Sorry the dog came from Larum APBTs her name was CH 'PR' Larum's Slam Jamin Jordan hope that clears it up for those wondering lol why didnt they just ask. Its not a claim it is what happened the dog was put down, make sure I put that so people dont cry again.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm just going to try to bring the thread back on topic as it's kind of gone into a wider HA discussion. Neutering Y/N? I'll say yes anyway but nothing to do with HA or barking. As I and others have said, it will do very little to solve behavioural problems. I think some people see it as too much of a "magic fix" for whatever they think is wrong with their dogs.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

gamer said:


> Sorry the dog came from Larum APBTs her name was CH 'PR' Larum's Slam Jamin Jordan hope that clears it up for those wondering lol why didnt they just ask. Its not a claim it is what happened the dog was put down, make sure I put that so people dont cry again.


I know it was Larums dog and it is well know that dog was PTS but I just wanted you to clarify who it was since Cheryl Caragan is a memeber and she got confused with Cheryl Larum. Thanks


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Back to the op question.

I have to wonder about a few things. how old is this dog? Has he been isolated tied up in a back yard before his this owner took him? There could be a number of reasons as to why he barks at everything. Rescue dogs need alot more work than a pup. As far as the lunging at the man in the door way. Did the guy coming in have a dog also? Did the barking dog see hm coming in or did the man coming in startle the dog so he reacted. If the owner had him under control i doubt the lunging would have happened. So many people in classes do not pay attention to what their dogs are doing they walk around looking at everyone else and not what their dogs are seeing. 

It would be nice if someone could video tape the class and all the dogs so we could see wat was happening.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

*Check out this site*

Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup
This woman is brilliant, I believe, when it comes to training dogs, particularly pit bulls. Browse around the site and see what she has to say about aggression. I do agree with her stance on unwarranted human aggression, although I don't know the particular dog and situation you write about.


> [Responsible owners] do NOT tolerate unsound behavior in the breed. If their dog is unsound, and shows unwarranted human aggression, they euthanize the dog. They do not make excuses for their dog.


(Diane Jessup).
*
The dog's barking isn't necessarily because he isn't neutered. That's his way of telling you he is excited, scared, wants to be left alone, etc. Each bark is different from the other and I would think a trainer would be able to decipher as long with body language. Neutering would probably calm him down some though!*


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> I know it was Larums dog and it is well know that dog was PTS but I just wanted you to clarify who it was since Cheryl Caragan is a memeber and she got confused with Cheryl Larum. Thanks


Oh snap Cheryl Caragan, lol I was sitting here thinking to myself how many Cheryls are well known breeders forgot about her. Sorry about that



pitbullmamanatl said:


> Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup
> This woman is brilliant, I believe, when it comes to training dogs, particularly pit bulls. Browse around the site and see what she has to say about aggression. I do agree with her stance on unwarranted human aggression, although I don't know the particular dog and situation you write about. (Diane Jessup).
> *
> The dog's barking isn't necessarily because he isn't neutered. That's his way of telling you he is excited, scared, wants to be left alone, etc. Each bark is different from the other and I would think a trainer would be able to decipher as long with body language. Neutering would probably calm him down some though!*


Diane Jessup is not a person you want to refer to on this subject. To her an unsound dog is a puppy who is DA, that warrants PTS for her. Yet she lets unsound dogs towards humans live she has it backwards


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Gamer we have been down this path before on Diane Jessup. You have your personal opinion of her but please refrain from name-calling. There are alot of people that like her myself included. 

Please people lets keep to the op question an not get off topic. This is not directed at anyone just a reminder.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

I edited it so not to offend any Jessupites


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## beccaboo (Dec 27, 2009)

MY MIKADO said:


> Back to the op question.
> 
> I have to wonder about a few things. how old is this dog? Has he been isolated tied up in a back yard before his this owner took him? There could be a number of reasons as to why he barks at everything. Rescue dogs need alot more work than a pup. As far as the lunging at the man in the door way. Did the guy coming in have a dog also? Did the barking dog see hm coming in or did the man coming in startle the dog so he reacted. If the owner had him under control i doubt the lunging would have happened. So many people in classes do not pay attention to what their dogs are doing they walk around looking at everyone else and not what their dogs are seeing.
> 
> It would be nice if someone could video tape the class and all the dogs so we could see wat was happening.


i don't know the whole history on the dog- i just can't imagine living with an unruly pitbull like that in my house for long. i bet he's about a yr n a half, can't be much older. the first class he was constantly barking. this last time wasn't near as bad- but again there wasn't any other dogs barking back to escalate things. the man that walked in next to him didn't have a dog with him but thor didn't see him til he was almost next to him. i think the guy is family of one of the helpers in class, just wasn't payin attention to the dogs but walkin forward to talk to somebody. regardless- the dog turned toward him and barked. like i said before i didn't see a lunge or him snap at him or anything. thor is just extra excitable- he should probably had an individual trainer come out to his own house and work with him as a lot of dogs obviously got him stimulated to the point where he misses out on most of the class.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

See he is getting better. it takes time and it is nice if people in class encourage the owner to contintue on this path of training rather than shows annoyance towards the dog. Like i said if this is a rescue it will take time even up to a yr before the dog is great all the time. Hopefully this person will contintue to seek help in training this dog.


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## Harley D (Mar 27, 2009)

neutering is not the anwsers to behavour problems ((my thought about the subjust)). Though, it may add on time some problems but altering your dog is not going to make the dog act like the number 1 dog. 

A thing I must ask is are these people working with their dog at all? Are these snaps at other people happening out side the fence as well as threw and inside the fence/home?

See the dog could be possesive over its home and think it has to protect. This may happen because of not being neutered, not sure. 

If the dog is acting violent out side the fencing area then I would advise animal control if the dog were to ever get out...safety reasons. But if the dog is always inside the fence I would not worry about it. For if the dog got out and attack someone on your land its your fault. Dont go setting a up roar saying you need to get your dog altered...it doesnt always solve bad behavour...may may not....Thats what I think


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