# Help my dog is knuckling over??



## Yambeezy

I feed my dog purina beneful puppy food. I think my problem may be that i feed my puppy to much? any help would be apreciated? Thanx to the person that pointed that out to me on my last thread.


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## EckoMac

Lower protein in the diet. Purina is McDonald's in the dog food world. I'm not good at finding and posting links from other threads, but there are several on appropriate diet and also a few on knuckling over if you use the search option on this forum. I'm also sure that someone will jump in and have fantastic advice for you.


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## kodiakgirl

http://www.gopitbull.com/health-nutrition/3749-pet-food-rating-comparison-chart.html <-- This thread is a great reference for different kinds of dog foods. And also remember, pitbulls are not "large breed" dogs, so they should not be fed large breed food as it has too much protein. Ultimately, the best and most beneficial way to feed your dog is raw. Here's a link to that if you are interested... http://www.gopitbull.com/raw-foods/28472-switching-prey-model-raw.html


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## circlemkennels

if you dont feed raw then blue buffalo is the best


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## pitbullmamanatl

Yes, your pup is beginning to knuckle. You need to switch to a better quality food.

 Knuckling over is caused by the following: ​ 1) a combination of two different types or brands of dog foods - feeding (50/50) 
2) the brand or type of food has been changed several times (3-4) times 
3) the addition of poor quality vitamins/minerals to a diet (not from whole foods)
4) human foods in amounts enough to disrupt the calcium/phosphorus balance 
5) too many calories vs the amount of free exercise they get on a daily bases
6) feeding a pet food that has minerals that are not very available to the body - crude forms
7) diets lacking vital microminerals or trace minerals
8) feeding too much of a good food
9) any or all of the above.
 Poor quality diet or too much of a good food, poor footing/slick floors with no rugs, and missing trace minerals are all things that contribute to this problem. The earlier you treat the problem the better chance of correcting it. I have seen a 9 week old pup corrected in about 8 or 9 days because it was caught early. You need balance between calcium, phosphorus, vitamin d and the age - don't experiment.
Too much vitamin D causes issues as well as too little vitamin d so the key is BALANCE. 
















2 years later:








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## circlemkennels

pitbullmamanatl said:


>


wow... i had never actually seen one that bad before.. that looks aweful!!!


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## pitbullmamanatl

Switch to a better quality food, lower protein is best in this case. Cod liver oil, sunlight, and exercise are extremely beneficial.


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## pitbullmamanatl

circlemkennels said:


> wow... i had never actually seen one that bad before.. that looks aweful!!!


That's only a stage 2. There are 4 stages.


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## pitbullmamanatl




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## pitbullmamanatl

Knuckling over is first noticed in the area of front leg on a puppy, or the growth plate (wrist or carpal) area. The term coined by professional breeders for this condition is _knuckling over_, and it describes a condition where the front end assembly of the dog, the weight bearing part of the body, is unable to support the whole body weight of the puppy, due to a lack of integrity in the muscle, tendon and ligaments. It is my opinion this condition is not genetic - it is due to *uneven growth pattern* between the bone and tissue/muscle of the puppy and it is cause by dietary imbalances and/or missing micro-minerals and/or minerals that are not available to the body - difficult to assimilate. 
The condition of _" knuckling over"_, can be very extreme, almost as if the legs are made of some malleable material - like rubber! Early knuckling over - under 8 weeks of age, is not a problem and very common because the large and giant breeds grow quickly during the early stages of development. The real issue with growth problems is the relationship between the intake vs output in calories and the bio-availability of the macro and micro minerals in a food. Knuckling is best corrected at a young age and is often achieved by switching to a low protein, high- quality food.


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## angelbaby

great posts lauren , yambeezy there are alot of better foods out there to feed check out the food rating chart and find one that is good quality and affordable for you. no point getting an expensive food if you cant keep it up all month long,ake sure it fits finacially as well, I feed orijen and my dogs love it however it is high in protein so in this case may not be suitable , not all high end foods will be suitable for this case check the protein levels. And follow laurens advice { pitbulmama} she posted some great info for you. looks like you caught this early .


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## Yambeezy

I Know for a fact that the dog was over fed. This is our first dog and we are still very new to it. I admit we have always left a full bowl of food for him. Im gonna start cutting down the feedings and start looking into other food choices. I heard good things about blue buffalo but im not sure if that would work in my case and my floors are wood there are no rugs


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## Blue_Nose_Bella

Yambeezy said:


> I Know for a fact that the dog was over fed. This is our first dog and we are still very new to it. I admit we have always left a full bowl of food for him. Im gonna start cutting down the feedings and start looking into other food choices. I heard good things about blue buffalo but im not sure if that would work in my case and my floors are wood there are no rugs


I'm not sure what your hardwood floors and no rugs have to do with anything but you need to get your pup off that beneful terrible dog food like today. You are going to have to gradually switch him over to the better food. In this case I would go with some of the grain free taste of the wild dog foods only because they have foods that are only 24% protein which are fairly low. I feed grain free blue buffalo and my dog does well on it. It is an excellent food. Also you can get a can of 100% pure pumpkin filling for pies and mix a tablespoon into the new food for an easier transition


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## Blue_Nose_Bella

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Yes, your pup is beginning to knuckle. You need to switch to a better quality food.
> 
> Knuckling over is caused by the following: ​ 1) a combination of two different types or brands of dog foods - feeding (50/50)
> 2) the brand or type of food has been changed several times (3-4) times
> 3) the addition of poor quality vitamins/minerals to a diet (not from whole foods)
> 4) human foods in amounts enough to disrupt the calcium/phosphorus balance
> 5) too many calories vs the amount of free exercise they get on a daily bases
> 6) feeding a pet food that has minerals that are not very available to the body - crude forms
> 7) diets lacking vital microminerals or trace minerals
> 8) feeding too much of a good food
> 9) any or all of the above.
> Poor quality diet or too much of a good food, poor footing/slick floors with no rugs, and missing trace minerals are all things that contribute to this problem. The earlier you treat the problem the better chance of correcting it. I have seen a 9 week old pup corrected in about 8 or 9 days because it was caught early. You need balance between calcium, phosphorus, vitamin d and the age - don't experiment.
> Too much vitamin D causes issues as well as too little vitamin d so the key is BALANCE.
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> 2 years later:
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Why does that pups feet turn like that in the first picture? Is it the way he is being held by the scruff of the neck. He looks deformed. I thought knuckling over was just that bump in the wrist of the dog?


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## pitbullmamanatl

over feeding, crap food are usually the main cause DO NOT FREE FEED! only feed recommended amount i would have to know dog's weight but im sure he doesn't require more than cup a day. switch to a quality food and you should see it start to correct unless of course it's genetic. you don't have to go grain free although i thinkit's best just make sure it is quality and low protein. consult our pet food chart. getting hair done post more later when i get home


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## Yambeezy

thanks to everybody that chimed in im gonna go get some better food at petco seen a post that recomended nutro natural choice chicken meal im gonna get that one. my pup was a fatboy last week now it seems like he grew so he doesnt look so fat. again thanx for everybodys help. oh yea he's gonna be 9 weeks on wednesday hes about 12 to 15 pounds


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## pitbullmamanatl

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Why does that pups feet turn like that in the first picture? Is it the way he is being held by the scruff of the neck. He looks deformed. I thought knuckling over was just that bump in the wrist of the dog?


That is what knuckling will turn into left untreated there are 4 stages


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## pitbullmamanatl

Nutro is crap food too the review is in the dog food thread


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## ashes

very cute puppy from the pcitures in the last thread it does look like you are overfeeding him.


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## performanceknls

circlemkennels said:


> wow... i had never actually seen one that bad before.. that looks awful!!!


That is how siren looked as a puppy, I put splints on her legs for a month to help support them. 2 of her offspring knuckled over as they grew but are fine now.



Yambeezy said:


> thanks to everybody that chimed in im gonna go get some better food at petco seen a post that recomended nutro natural choice chicken meal im gonna get that one. my pup was a fatboy last week now it seems like he grew so he doesnt look so fat. again thanx for everybodys help. oh yea he's gonna be 9 weeks on wednesday hes about 12 to 15 pounds


I have had this issues with several dogs and one of the good foods to try is the lamb and rice blue buffalo adult. It is 22% protein and that is what you want lower protein. You do not want to use weight restricted diets but a regular adult diet. If you feed a proper amount and feed twice a day you can maintain a health pup and adult dog. As puppies my dogs eat around 1 cup to 1.5 cups per feeding so 2-3 cups a day and that can give you somewhere to start. take a few days to switch the food over by mixing it with your current food to avoid giving the dog the runs. Go with half an half for a few days then 3/4 to 1/4 then straight over. This usually takes about 4-5 days and since you are going from a low quality food to a high quality food it should not be a problem. Do not give extra supplements at this point unless you want to do a fish oil pill once a day. You need to keep your pup on this food for about 3-4 months but at least a few weeks after the problem has corrected. Then you can go back to a normal puppy food till it is time to switch to adult. Knuckling over is not a big deal if you handle it properly with diet and with no side effects as an adult that I know of. I have had a few of my dogs knuckle over as pups and they are working dogs today with no problems. Here is a link of the food and the contents I know you can get this at any food store even petsmart.
Blue Buffalo - All Natural and Organic Lamb Based Adult Dog Food

if you look on the website you should be able to find a coupon that they can mail to you for when you have to get more.


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## Yambeezy

my case isnt extreme enuff to wrap them right it should come back naturaly with a change in diet


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## carson1391

wow, i just recently switched to a raw meat diet and i blend up some veggies and throw in some grain for the hell of it. now im just scared.. lol


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## Yambeezy

performanceknls said:


> That is how siren looked as a puppy, I put splints on her legs for a month to help support them. 2 of her offspring knuckled over as they grew but are fine now.
> 
> I have had this issues with several dogs and one of the good foods to try is the lamb and rice blue buffalo adult. It is 22% protein and that is what you want lower protein. You do not want to use weight restricted diets but a regular adult diet. If you feed a proper amount and feed twice a day you can maintain a health pup and adult dog. As puppies my dogs eat around 1 cup to 1.5 cups per feeding so 2-3 cups a day and that can give you somewhere to start. take a few days to switch the food over by mixing it with your current food to avoid giving the dog the runs. Go with half an half for a few days then 3/4 to 1/4 then straight over. This usually takes about 4-5 days and since you are going from a low quality food to a high quality food it should not be a problem. Do not give extra supplements at this point unless you want to do a fish oil pill once a day. You need to keep your pup on this food for about 3-4 months but at least a few weeks after the problem has corrected. Then you can go back to a normal puppy food till it is time to switch to adult. Knuckling over is not a big deal if you handle it properly with diet and with no side effects as an adult that I know of. I have had a few of my dogs knuckle over as pups and they are working dogs today with no problems. Here is a link of the food and the contents I know you can get this at any food store even petsmart.
> Blue Buffalo - All Natural and Organic Lamb Based Adult Dog Food
> 
> if you look on the website you should be able to find a coupon that they can mail to you for when you have to get more.


i just picked up that blue bufallo you were talking about thanx for your help


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## pitbullmamanatl

Yambeezy said:


> my case isnt extreme enuff to wrap them right it should come back naturaly with a change in diet


No, but that is how it starts and it ultimately could become that extreme.


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## pitbullmamanatl

carson1391 said:


> wow, i just recently switched to a raw meat diet and i blend up some veggies and throw in some grain for the hell of it. now im just scared.. lol


Why are you scared? Did you do your research on feeding RAW? Veggies help with the digestion. Not sure why you are throwing grain in. If you want to "throw" something in you should sprinkle some milled flax seed over it.


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## pitbullmamanatl

performanceknls said:


> That is how siren looked as a puppy, I put splints on her legs for a month to help support them. 2 of her offspring knuckled over as they grew but are fine now.
> 
> I have had this issues with several dogs and one of the good foods to try is the lamb and rice blue buffalo adult. It is 22% protein and that is what you want lower protein. You do not want to use weight restricted diets but a regular adult diet. If you feed a proper amount and feed twice a day you can maintain a health pup and adult dog. As puppies my dogs eat around 1 cup to 1.5 cups per feeding so 2-3 cups a day and that can give you somewhere to start. take a few days to switch the food over by mixing it with your current food to avoid giving the dog the runs. Go with half an half for a few days then 3/4 to 1/4 then straight over. This usually takes about 4-5 days and since you are going from a low quality food to a high quality food it should not be a problem. Do not give extra supplements at this point unless you want to do a fish oil pill once a day. You need to keep your pup on this food for about 3-4 months but at least a few weeks after the problem has corrected. Then you can go back to a normal puppy food till it is time to switch to adult. Knuckling over is not a big deal if you handle it properly with diet and with no side effects as an adult that I know of. I have had a few of my dogs knuckle over as pups and they are working dogs today with no problems. Here is a link of the food and the contents I know you can get this at any food store even petsmart.
> Blue Buffalo - All Natural and Organic Lamb Based Adult Dog Food
> 
> if you look on the website you should be able to find a coupon that they can mail to you for when you have to get more.


Good post woman!


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## performanceknls

Yambeezy said:


> my case isnt extreme enuff to wrap them right it should come back naturaly with a change in diet


 with diet it should not get that bad just keep an eye on them.



carson1391 said:


> wow, i just recently switched to a raw meat diet and i blend up some veggies and throw in some grain for the hell of it. now im just scared.. lol


If you have not properly researched RAW you need to do the research or it could have deadly consequences. We have a great raw section here but it is not as easy as just feeding raw meat. Please for the sake of your dog know what your doing before you atempt raw.


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## pitbullmamanatl

performanceknls said:


> with diet it should not get that bad just keep an eye on them.
> :goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:
> 
> If you have not properly researched RAW you need to do the research or it could have deadly consequences. We have a great raw section here but it is not as easy as just feeding raw meat. Please for the sake of your dog know what your doing before you atempt raw.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## bluefamily

*Carpal Hyperflexion Syndrome*

What your dog has is Carpal Hyperflexion syndrome and if you plug that in to a search engine you will find plenty of information on it. The paper I found was published in the magazine _Veterinario_ in 2000 and is very educational.
We had that also and switched our food to Natural Balance (in the yellow bag) and it was gone within a week. The link is Pet Food, Dog and Cat Food | naturalbalanceinc.com. Your puppy will grow out of it so don't worry. The puppies that had it in our crew have now sign of it. Good luck. And like every body has mentioned the protein count in the dog food is the key.


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## carson1391

dont worry i did extensive research on a raw meat diet. The only thing i couldnt really find is the right amounts on veggies. what i do now its puree all kinds of veggies together and feed it with thier meat. peas,spinage,carrots,squash,celery,broccli,sweet potatoes. and i fee them satin balls once a day as a treat and feed them cheap steak, ribs, chicken breats and thighs. I know its pointless throwing in the grain but i bought it for the satin balls and i aint gonna let it go to waste. a little fiber isnt gonna hurt. its some flax seed, wheat germ, oats, and molasses. im sure you all know the recipe.


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## pitbullmamanatl

carson1391 said:


> dont worry i did extensive research on a raw meat diet. The only thing i couldnt really find is the right amounts on veggies. what i do now its puree all kinds of veggies together and feed it with thier meat. peas,spinage,carrots,squash,celery,broccli,sweet potatoes. and i fee them satin balls once a day as a treat and feed them cheap steak, ribs, chicken breats and thighs. I know its pointless throwing in the grain but i bought it for the satin balls and i aint gonna let it go to waste. a little fiber isnt gonna hurt. its some flax seed, wheat germ, oats, and molasses. im sure you all know the recipe.


*
5-15%. 
If feeding all RAW you need 75-80% Meat, 10% muscle meats 10% organs and 5% roughage and 5% misc. Adjust accordingly to get your 100% That's how I do it.*


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