# TNT/Condra and Razoredege??



## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

Take a look at grandchamp turpins blue trouble pedigree on back and then take a look at grandchamp razoredge throwin knuckles on back. They started the same but went in different direction. Stephanie used minters miss sheba and dave wilson used I believe sadies if I'm wrong please correct. Me but I have a male from tnt/condra and a female from razoredge I'm trying to create a wonderful dog on behalf of them creating these bloodline. What do yah think?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Well if you want my honest opinion, If I were Steph or Eddie I would hate the idea. I would be ticked if I ever found one of my dogs had been taken to an RE dog. But thats just me.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

IDK why youd do an APBT to a Bully...:\


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

The razoredge female I have is the picture on my avatar. N razoredge been around it wasn't called a bully breed until the mixing came in. My girl is more game than people see or know by her picture. My tnt/condra male is healthy strong and have stamina and my razoredge female has quickness speed and stamina. Although I have pure dogs from both tnt/condra and razoredge on my yard and I already seen some being made I know from my dogs I can produce some awsome pups from both.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

No matter when or what type of RE dog it is...RE was never a game line. AmStaff, maybe, game? Negative.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

oky why its not oky for me to do my breeding to created the type of dog i like but for everyone who created there bloodline done the same to create theres. and staff is in tnt/condra dogs as well as razoredge dogs. and just because they call them bully breeds they still consider a american terriers. rather they staff, staff bull ar apbt. to me there the same just in different classes. as a matter fact some dogs that was apbt were reg. as staff. but thanks for the opinions. it does matter what kind of dog it is i know u would just breed anything. im very observing and care and take exterm measurement to what i want to produce. i have started yet just wanted some other view on it. one more thing i have seen different breed crossing rather it razoredge/colby mix or tnt/condra and old family red mix. but i understand where u coming,. just saying this is our other bloodline was being created by other people dogs.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

i mean you wouldnt just breed anything.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

16cashflowbars said:


> oky why its not oky for me to do my breeding to created the type of dog i like but for everyone who created there bloodline done the same to create theres. and staff is in tnt/condra dogs as well as razoredge dogs. and just because they call them bully breeds they still consider a american terriers. rather they staff, staff bull ar apbt. to me there the same just in different classes. as a matter fact some dogs that was apbt were reg. as staff. but thanks for the opinions. it does matter what kind of dog it is i know u would just breed anything. im very observing and care and take exterm measurement to what i want to produce. i have started yet just wanted some other view on it. one more thing i have seen different breed crossing rather it razoredge/colby mix or tnt/condra and old family red mix. but i understand where u coming,. just saying this is our other bloodline was being created by other people dogs. you right but their no say what can be game dog n my girl can prove it no matter what bloodline she is or whats in her pedigree.


you can prove shes game? hmmm...things i wouldnt be saying on an open forum.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

of course her willing just as strong as any other dog rather its weight pulling, agility test or stamina. but some thing dont believe on open forums. who saids razoredge dog cant be games dog, whos said tnt/condra dog cant be game dog are anyone doing research and know they pedigree and what in them from the beginning anymore. cause if they do then any dogs are alloy to be a gamedog. might not the way old ***** see but the way kennels club see game.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

NO one said you cant do it. You just asked what we thought. Also just because someone else is doing it or already done it doesn't mean its a good idea.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

and i really do thank you old fort kennel but eventually it will be done over and over again rather its by me or someone else. but i was jus wondering because they did started off the same in there pedigree it what was suppose to happen is that they went in different direction. that what i was getting act would it produce some fire pups to react both bloodline back in the same direction. just look at james blue lex at this site Lex and snows blue brownie take a look at my avatar.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

how much does that dog weigh the lex one.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

he condition weight 65 chainweight 75 he tnt/condra father is condra blue cadet and his mother falins blue gypsy


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

he is a good looking boy big but still looks conformationaly sound. is that the one you are wanting to breed yours to?


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

that is my dog hes on my yard right now


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Blue Gypsy is a 55lbs bitch and game to the core! 

Me, I wouldnt do it. I dont like it and I wouldnt be apart of it, even if somone else is going to do it.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

i also have that girl her names james blue diamond she weigh 55 and she tnt/condra/falins


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

right!! now you see where im getting act so with the promission from the tnt/condra/falins/brown/chainggang let me do this


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

You have Gypsy Blue?


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

no i have her son james blue lex


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

that is what my dogs are most of them any way TNT/Fallin/Turpin/Denton/wilder/


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

i also have james blue diamond her father condras ziggy blue and her mom is falins little queenie


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

word then you now what it is to have a good dog.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

my girl i wanna breed with lex has razoredge throwing knuckles, notoriuos jaun gotti, plumer, gator,tufftown and watchdog in her.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

that sounds like a really big bully mix but she don't look that big!


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

she not she short and tone fast strong and stamina thats why i wanted to do this


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

First of all, Razors Edge started as AmStaff and not all stock went bully. Second TNT is a questionable line, as far as being APBT. And finally, third, there are PLENTY of members here, even a couple mods, that cross APBT and Bully lines. So I think the right question here is not why would you, it's actually What Merit Does This Breeding Have?.
Have these dogs done anything worthy of breeding, have they proven to be of quality breeding stock, do you have buyers lined up, and are you financially prepared for any medical events?


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## roe1880 (Nov 8, 2008)

Damn... I dont know what to say... I just don't understand why Blue Ace in the Hole is in there as you being the breeder of him?? Please correct me if you can & have Joe his owner call me... he got my #... I'm just confused...


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

My dad is the breeder of him. My dad sold him to joe so that make blue haze his and joe the owner. James blue lex is the father and james blue miah is the mother. Joe brought him from my dad.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes I'm finically prepared and lex has already produce outstandind pups. And some have been in comfirmation and weigh pulling and come from a champion bloodline. He's produce if I'm not wrong he has over 110 offspring. Some not reg. But I know for a fact cause my dad breed them. My girl father was a great fighter but I took him from the people who was fighting him and turned him into a resuce dog. He's a great at it. Yes I have buyer ready for me to have another litter. That's why I wanted to know before I breed these to what would be the outcome.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

Right about razoredge not all went bully and right tnt/condra line minter miss sheba wasn't a staff but the dog she was breed to was. His name was ruffians noble blaze of glory he was. That make them 50/50 right.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't know. I wouldn't do this breeding...it doesn't sound like it will produce anything of merit and a responsible breeder I would think would breed to keep lines pure...I could be wrong but if I was a breeder that would be important to me. Also function of the breed would be of most importance. I see nothing good coming of a bully/apbt breeding.


Actually I think your name speaks volumns.....Cashflow......sounds like a you are in it for the money.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

The same for my names is the same for the media making pitbulls out what they not. I do my research and understand my dog behavior where they come from to the begining of other bleeds such as hybrid. I do my homework such as a breeder should. By the way a dog with be wha it his if it wasn't mix with another breed. The point in history where they make history make a breed what they are today.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

16cashflowbars said:


> Right about razoredge not all went bully and right tnt/condra line minter miss sheba wasn't a staff but the dog she was breed to was. His name was ruffians noble blaze of glory he was. That make them 50/50 right.


only the pups that came directly from them. Matt's New Blue Goes back tho that breeding also but he is only 13% ast how many generations back is that breeding in your ped? "c.m. nobles blaze of glory"


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

If you already a breeder why did you come on here wants us to say go ahead breed the two dogs. If you have done your research and your dad is a reputable breeder than you really don't need any justication. 

We are not going to stop any breeding by posting a comment on this breeding. Are you looking for something in particular for someone to tell you?


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

I think since you are gonna go ahead and do it i would like to see how they turn out and would like updates on the temperment and drive of the dogs produced.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I just wish Eddie never finds out, however I am going to see him today so I might not be able to keep my mouth shut. I HATE the idea.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

Me too but since its gonna be done i will wanna see what comes of it.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I would like to hear what Eddie has to say about this breeding.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm not after the money just creating a new history like the great other has done. Can you blame me for what already been done and will be done wirhout any say so.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

And I want to thank everyone for there opinion it mean a lot. I'm really lean towards no I shouldn't but on the other yea cause I think I know what would come from both. They want be big or bully more the average musclar or tone body. With unually markings. Good temper cause I know both mom and dad of them well. But if I decide to ill will post a picture up of them if I do and and if pitbull forums alloy me to. So thank everyone.


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## 33MTA3 (Dec 10, 2005)

I think imma just keep them pure I'm not going to breed them eventhough they are great dogs. Thank everyone and my wife told me today not to do it so I'm not.


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## roe1880 (Nov 8, 2008)

Thank Goodness.....


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## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

I personally like a lot of the old TNT and Falin stuff. They seem to work, and have a balance I like: lean, but nice bone and good headpieces. The ones I seen were athletic, nice temperaments, and pretty too. 

I even seen the original razoredge line when it started and they were not too bad. They were almost pure AKC amstaff then, and were a little overdone, but looked purebred. I was able to meet throwing knuckels, and I like him a lot. 

However, now most of the RE dogs don't look like pit or staffs to me. I do not care for the Gotti or grayline. They do not look athletic to me. I do still see nice TNT dogs, but don't care for the ones crossed with the bigger lines though.

Now, before anyone gets upset, I am not referring to anyone on this site. This is just what I have seen in the last 19 or years I have been into the breed, and the dogs I have seen at UKC and ADBA shows.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Just wanted to toss this in here real quick

1: Blu Trouble (not BLUE Trouble) was not a GR.CH. let alone a CH. He was refused his CH. certificate. It is likely he did nothing & if he did anything it was against lesser competition. But if he did anything at all, he is considered a 3xw, not a CH. b/c he does not have a CH. certificate.

2: His sire's name was NOBLE'S Blaze of Glory. Not Ruffian's Noble Blaze of Glory. He was a UKC show CH & a pure Ruffian bred AmStaff.

Would I breed a TNT dog to a RE dog? No. I would not do this b/c they are two different breeds now. RE dogs are now considered even by Dave Wilson to be American Bullies. Last I read, the leaner, less bully dogs are considered "classic" bullies. The AmBully people have 3 classes for their dogs - classic (early type RE), bully & XL bully.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

ABK said:


> Just wanted to toss this in here real quick
> 
> 1: Blu Trouble (not BLUE Trouble) was not a GR.CH. let alone a CH. He was refused his CH. certificate. It is likely he did nothing & if he did anything it was against lesser competition. But if he did anything at all, he is considered a 3xw, not a CH. b/c he does not have a CH. certificate.
> 
> ...


:clap::goodpost:


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> 1: Blu Trouble (not BLUE Trouble) was not a GR.CH. let alone a CH. He was refused his CH. certificate. It is likely he did nothing & if he did anything it was against lesser competition. But if he did anything at all, he is considered a 3xw, not a CH. b/c he does not have a CH. certificate.


Depends on who you talk to. Its funny that there is such controversy over this dog, because he was blue it is said the competition that he went into was LESSER. Why because he won and he was blue. If he had been red or black no one says a word!


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

Well i just looked at the pedigree I purchased from the adba and 
Turpin's "BLU TROUBLE" reg # 24700E-71 
is on it like 8 times and there is no letters after or before the name so it looks like the adba its self doesn't recognise him as a champion.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> Well i just looked at the pedigree I purchased from the adba and
> Turpin's "BLU TROUBLE" reg # 24700E-71
> is on it like 8 times and there is no letters after or before the name so it looks like the adba its self doesn't recognise him as a champion.


The ADBA only will put conformation ch on the paper work not [] dog ch or wins.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

*OFK *- I got it straight from ST's mouth that he went into lesser comp. She said she took whatever came along & if she had it all over to do again she'd have waited for better dogs to catch against. And I got that direct from the SOURCE. SHE HERSELF took him into lesser comp b/c she was in such a hurry to "prove" her dogs to RB, which she didn't do anyway. She failed to prove any of the naysayers wrong since she was in such a hurry.

BUT ... I also have a yard vid she sent me from back when she was supposedly catching & all her dogs are spotless. I mean crystal clear. They don't even look to have a hair out of place, let alone have ever been in the woods.

Heck, one of the dogs Trouble supposedly vanquished in the catch pen was a 61 lb Chinaman dog. Does anyone here know of a 61 lb Chinaman dog? Has anyone here ever even HEARD of a 61 lb Chinaman dog? Shoot, that dog was probably some unregistered what's-it the owner called a Chinaman dog or it was a Chinaman dog who was owned by a greenie who brought him to the woods hog fat. THIS was the type of stuff ST was taking her early dogs against - BY HER OWN ADMISSION.

Now her newer dogs (Grim, etc.) I think she handled in a better manner, but her older dogs (i.e. Trouble, Sheba, Rowdy, Buckshot, all those) I think went into fluffs if they went into anything at all.

*Blue Pit Bull Man* - Trouble was never a show CH. He would have been a working CH. & the ADBA no longer recognizes those. Furthermore, the ADBA will not recognize a title from another club any more either. For example, your dog could be a UKC CH. but it will not show on ADBA papers or pedigrees as such.

Hope this helps.

*EDIT*: I wanted to add - I am not saying this b/c I am a TNT hater. I owned 2 TNT dogs I bought direct from ST in the past & bred a female to Trouble (which is how I found out all this info). We also currently own a pure TNT male. So I'm not hating. I'm just telling what I know as I was told it.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

well I just bought this pedigree from the adba and it does post ch and gr ch and A and A/A so they do post accomplishments it says for example 
C.M. Noble's "Blaze of glory" UKC: CH


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Well, I am sitting here looking at an ADBA ped for one of my females. On the ADBA ped it simply says Watchdog's Wolverine, but on her UKC papers Wolverine is listed as a CH. Same thing for Blue Max II. No CH. on the ADBA papers, but he is listed as a CH. under the UKC.

As for A/A, that is an ADBA title, so it would be shown. But it is not shown on UKC papers since it is not a UKC title. My female was the granddaughter of an A/A VI. Of course the A/A VI title shows on her ADBA papers, but not her UKC ones.

But these were a while ago. perhaps the policy has changed. Maybe OFK can shed some insight since they compete with several kennel clubs.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

I don't know for sure about any of that all i know is it says for example Couturier "BLUE BULLY"
76900A-33 UKC:GDCH


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

But i don't have it from the other side because i only have adba papers so far.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

See, now mine doesn't say that. It simply says Couturier's Blue Bully on mine. But all my peds are from the '90s. Perhaps there has been a policy change. Here's the ped on one of my WD males.










I'm trying to get my UKC & ADBA ped on my bitch to upload but I'm having problems. I'll try to post it later for you to see.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Here they go. Notice the difference between them:


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

This one is from this year.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Ha ha, you show me yours, I'll show you mine! :woof:

But seriously, thanks for posting them. I was hoping you would. As you can see, no UKC CHs are posted on my ADBA peds. But again, mine are older. I'm going to contact the ADBA tomorrow & see if they will recognize my Buba male's CGC & non-ADBA weight pull title & see if they'll put them on his peds.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

Good deal and good luck!!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

The A/A is ACE of ACE, weight pull title. IF it was A/A VI it was an Ace of Ace 4 so it had like 400 points in weight pull.

We have talked with Steph to, and several close friends of hers and I guess its all in the mood or who they are talking to at the time. At this point it really doesn't matter anymore.

ON our peds we dont have any UKC titles on our ADBA papers? Must be something they just started?


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

yeah....my adba papers have ukc accoplishments on there as well. as far as ch gdch ect ect.... ----shane

oh and btw....just got them this yr also....so it might be new hell i dont know haha


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

*OFH* - Luckily for me almost all my correspondence w/ ST was either snail mail or e-mail, so I have most of it in writing.

As for the A/A IV here is the dog. He was a great dog from what his owners have told me. He was the grandsire to one of my dogs:

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [19362] :: EDGAR'S IKAN PULLMORE


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Nice, I like how it says on the pedigree, the premixed era!!


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## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)

stepping into threads like these as a new pitbull owner and new person to the site makes my head hurt :/


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

Aidan said:


> stepping into threads like these as a new pitbull owner and new person to the site makes my head hurt :/


but you did it any way how does your head feal now? just look around and you will learn. if you have any questions feel free to ask!


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Yeah, the ORIGINAL Pullmore dog came alone before Whopper even existed. But there is now a Whopper dog who is also named Ikan Pullmore, so that "pre-mixed" note was added to separate the purebred Pullmore from the mixed bred Pullmore. And I need to have that online pedigree amended. The ADBA ped I have says he was an A/A VI, not an A/A IV. 

The bitch we had would have made an awesome pulldog. Too bad when we owned her there were no shows/pulls in our area. I have no doubt she'd have at gotten an Ace minimum. But no one in our state was putting on pulls back then & due to the combination of my seizure disorder & my husband's work schedule, we cannot travel long distances to compete.

But our state has an ADBA club now (didn't back then) & the UKC is now putting on pulls as well. The AADR is finally coming to our state too, so I am very much hoping I will be able to make up for lost time with the great-great-grandson of hers I have. 

EDIT - And I wanted to add, great comment about asking questions. It is never a bad thing to ask questions. You may get answers you might not like, but you will get answers & thus come out as a better person nonetheless.


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## Teekospits (Apr 10, 2010)

*it took two years*

hey to everyone but im back to thanks everyone to the accomplishments of james blue lex and brownie snow blue. to everyone who like pitbulls and no matter where they come from you love them as man best friend. but the reason why im back cause a couple of people here wanted me to let them know how the puppies turn out and i have to say its probably one of the best i have done. there temperment are friendly as can be so for but still want till they are able to move around better. they are pretty in colors some grey with a brownish tint and some brown with grey tint around the face and leg never seen anything like it. but the color is not the factor. there head chest legs are well formed as what a pitbull standards are to look like. they are very healthy and will inform the rest later. thank to the tnt/condra/falins/james for james blue lex and thanks to razoregde/gotti/plumer/stamper/tuftown/watchdog for brownie snows blue.


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## Teekospits (Apr 10, 2010)

any question please let me answer them before speculating.


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