# GAME-DOG (real APBT) How can they be...



## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

*GAME-DOGS (real APBT) How can they be...*

blue coated (nosed) ??? why none of them has made it to the TOP, if they are as GAME as some claim ??? Why aren´t they known to old DOGMEN ??? Are they MUTTS ??? Where did they come from ???


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

If you search "blue APBT" in our search bar you will find a ton of threads and post on this subject.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

American_Pit13 do you mean on GOOGLE or GOPITBULL.COM ???


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I agree. Use the search bar here u'll see lots of threads like this. And just to clarify, are u meaning game dogs like pre 76 that were fought in the []... or game bred ADBA style blue dogs with a working style and high prey drive?


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> I agree. Use the search bar here u'll see lots of threads like this. And just to clarify, are u meaning game dogs like pre 76 that were fought in the []... or game bred ADBA style blue dogs with a working style and high prey drive?


Odin's_BlueDragon... looking for GAMENESS which makes REAL APBT... NOT in the PIT... DEF: willing to try with an effort that surpass the norm.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

hedibenbrahim said:


> Odin's_BlueDragon... looking for GAMENESS which makes REAL APBT... NOT in the PIT... DEF: willing to try with an effort that surpass the norm.


I am confused this statement you gameness is defined by dog on dog testing. Blue dog have popped up from time to him but not in the light grey color you expect. They were not kept just as Colby culled red nose dogs mostndog men culled blue dog.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> I am confused this statement you gameness is defined by dog on dog testing. Blue dog have popped up from time to him but not in the light grey color you expect. They were not kept just as Colby culled red nose dogs mostndog men culled blue dog.


yee that´s what I´m talking about... these new light grey (blue) cold (ungameness) where do they come from ??? and how come never heard of in the old days ???


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

This is the belonging clubs Ch soga she has been posted here great many times. Because she one of the few blue dogs that was a game dog and their actual visual evidence that she was blue. One thing that has not be pointed out is she is heavily bred with the stroller blood. This is the ed Crenshaw blood. This same dog produce many great dog that produced great lines. For example sorrels red jerry. Not to mention countless dog of Maurice Carvers, so blue dogs can come from traditional game lines just does not happen often.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

The light grey dog are often from bully lines. Their is no way to know what is in their since it is open that founders of the breed mixed different breeds into the. The UKC and adba allow the registration of the dogs so they are passed off as apbt. When they are not.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> This is the belonging clubs Christmas soga.b she has been posted here great many times. Because she one of the few blue dogs that was a game dog and their actual visual evidence that she was blue. One thing that has not be pointed out is she is heavily bred with the stroller blood. This is the ed Crenshaw blood. This same dog produce many great dog that produced great lines. For example sorrels red jerry. Not to mention countless dog of Maurice Carvers, so blue dogs can come from traditional game lines just does not happen often.


NOW we see them by millions all around... and we´re talking about one bitch that made it !!! 
why old DOGMAN didn´t keep them on their yards, not to even mention match them ???


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> The light grey dog are often from bully lines. Their is no way to know what is in their since it is open that founders of the breed mixed different breeds into the. The UKC and adba allow the registration of the dogs so they are passed off as apbt. When they are not.


that´s probably it... messed up Kennel Clubs registry :curse:

Any proof of this ??? wrongly registries...


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

hedibenbrahim said:


> Odin's_BlueDragon... looking for GAMENESS which makes REAL APBT... NOT in the PIT... DEF: willing to try with an effort that surpass the norm.


I think ur definition of game is wrong. Game is the willingness to finish the fight. Game cannot be proven any other way except in the []. Hog hunting comes close but its not the same. So unless u live somewhere else where []ing a dog is legal, u wont find any truely game dogs here in the states.

But Rudy got it right, the lighter blues come from AmBully lines and fad breeders that are breeding for color only, which is bad news for any dog. And the kennel clubs just don't recognize them as another breed, yes its bad for APBTs. But don't assume that because a dog is blue that its not an APBT either.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Any thoughts about this Blue and Tan pattern on the history of real APBT ???

http://hqbullies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tri-color-pitbulls-for-sale.jpg


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

hedibenbrahim said:


> NOW we see them by millions all around... and we´re talking about one bitch that made it !!!
> why old DOGMAN didn´t keep them on their yards, not to even mention match them ???


This same club out of Mexico has had couple blue ch. But like I said a great many dog men did not like dogs of color. That would explain how people show you a red nose dog and say it is pure Colby blood well just happens as things work them out. It is just odds not all dogs work out if blue one popes up recessive. It would only be few, then if they were not culled the chances of them testing game is thin. The chances of them being a ch of note even thinner.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

hedibenbrahim said:


> Any thoughts about this Blue and Tan pattern on the history of real APBT ???
> 
> http://hqbullies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tri-color-pitbulls-for-sale.jpg


Not completely sure but I would guess it is recessive of the black and tan dogs. Just like man if war from the early 1900s

Again these are also bully nit APBT so not know what is the true foundation of the breed.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

I never read John Pritchard Colby or any old timers mentioned BLUE & TAN... although he did mention BLACK & Tan !!!


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Like I said ought be recessive of of black and tan. But most likely come from the mixing. Have to relies you are looking at bullies and trying to look at it as apbt. They are not apbt is only part of the bully blood puzzle. Side you won't know where it comes from.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

what about this one:

http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/20061-abk-colors.html


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

The UKC type show dogs have more amstaff blood mixed in and a good many of them were from the bully foundations. The American bully started as UKC show dogs. Go to a shower look a t dogs that are bred to traditional line line ofngame dogs you won't see all these variation of color.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

hedibenbrahim said:


> messed up Kennel Clubs registry :curse:
> 
> .


Are you aware of a registry that's not?


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Are you aware of a registry that's not?


for this particular breed or for all canine world ???


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Blues have always been thought of as Curs, the genetics associated with the dilute is something quite different.. I have personally seen a few blue stock Bulldogs that didn't amount to much in the field, very rarely do you hear of one coming forth to what was expected through ped.. Many disagree with these statements as "anything black can produce a blue" but proof is in the heavy amounts of puddin already laid out.

The color was never called "Blue" except recent years, however even then no matter what color you called it.. Culled in the oddity of being thrown, even rarer would you hear of one being proven such as Soga.. A dog many go back to upon this very topic, as it is the best example there is.. About the only example really.

There are some great "performance" stock Bulldogs that do exceptionally well in agility and other sporting type environments, very rarely do you hear of blue one coming along in the field (catch or strike) but when you do, the dog is usually not very consistent thus not worth the keep in my eyes.

Where the [] is still legal and done through the hands of gents, same ole story. Lots of heart but not the mind or the will needed.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

hedibenbrahim said:


> for this particular breed or for all canine world ???


This breed... American in general maybe lol... There are registries in other countries that seems to be all in and are about working stock not just what had signed papers, but a registry here is nothing more than a place you pay to keep track of your records you send them and let people hold organized events under their name. They ALL have dogs with hung papers, out of standard dogs, and their own little political issues.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Their really is not a way for a registry to prevent paper hanging. People breed some thing to a dog and send in paper work for two registered dog and sale them calling them what they are not. Their is Littleton registry can do. It is selfish back yard breeding, that has ruined things.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Blues have always been thought of as Curs, the genetics associated with the dilute is something quite different.. I have personally seen a few blue stock Bulldogs that didn't amount to much in the field, very rarely do you hear of one coming forth to what was expected through ped.. Many disagree with these statements as "anything black can produce a blue" but proof is in the heavy amounts of puddin already laid out.
> 
> The color was never called "Blue" except recent years, however even then no matter what color you called it.. Culled in the oddity of being thrown, even rarer would you hear of one being proven such as Soga.. A dog many go back to upon this very topic, as it is the best example there is.. About the only example really.
> 
> ...


got ya 

but what about Blue and Tan did it exist ???


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

that´s absolutely TRUE


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> Blues have always been thought of as Curs, the genetics associated with the dilute is something quite different.. I have personally seen a few blue stock Bulldogs that didn't amount to much in the field, very rarely do you hear of one coming forth to what was expected through ped.. Many disagree with these statements as "anything black can produce a blue" but proof is in the heavy amounts of puddin already laid out.
> 
> The color was never called "Blue" except recent years, however even then no matter what color you called it.. Culled in the oddity of being thrown, even rarer would you hear of one being proven such as Soga.. A dog many go back to upon this very topic, as it is the best example there is.. About the only example really.
> 
> ...


It is true I have talked with a couple Dogmen that had blue or diluted dogs show up and they did cull them. The club in Mexico that had soga where not a traditional club they got dogs from american dogmen so did not cull the diluted dogs, I believe they had another blue female that won. I my self have never seen a blue dog with a true APBT ped but have seen blue catch dogs that were go for catch work. i am working one to see, it is the lack off drive for other dogs that makes him better prospect then my other dogs.


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## Kenaii (Dec 22, 2011)

Skull was known to throw a blue dog every once in a while. It pops up from time to time.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> It is true I have talked with a couple Dogmen that had blue or diluted dogs show up and they did cull them. The club in Mexico that had soga where not a traditional club they got dogs from american dogmen so did not cull the diluted dogs, I believe they had another blue female that won. I my self have never seen a blue dog with a true APBT ped but have seen blue catch dogs that were go for catch work. i am working one to see, it is the lack off drive for other dogs that makes him better prospect then my other dogs.


by cull you mean reject or kill ???

and of course their lack of DRIVE would make them a better catch dogs...


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

hedibenbrahim said:


> by cull you mean reject or kill ???
> 
> and of course their lack of DRIVE would make them a better catch dogs...


This statement is actually false, the best catch dogs are not curs.. High end Bulldogs or Bandogs.. Traditional stock Dogos is exactly what i'm talking about.

Cur dogs can make good catch dogs, hell the BMC was created using Cur Bulldogs.. However if you want serious, bar non catch dog your best at going to private yards with traditional Bulldog stock.. (Bull Baiter type of animals) Particularly if you don't hunt with a collective group of hounds. Also depends on the type of game you are hunting.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

hedibenbrahim said:


> yee that´s what I´m talking about... these new light grey (blue) cold (ungameness) where do they come from ??? and how come never heard of in the old days ???


The true Pit Dogs of the Blue variety came from Scotland, called the Blue Polls, or Pauls.
They were fierce gladiators in the [], and would fight to the death. 
These dogs are now extinct, and I find little if any relation to them in today's dogs.
They were larger than today's ApBT. 
There is very little regarding match reports, and I have not known of any dogmen to have them.
The last match I know of with a blue dog was in Oklahoma in 1936.
It was a match of a blue, Colorado Imp II vs Searcy's Jeff (an Old Family Red Nose) and Imp lost. 
Since then the blues went the road of the show, and left the [] for good.
To this day the AKC AST crowd still fringes about the red dogs.

Whatever the blues may have been, those days are over now. 
They are not match dogs. They are NOT game dogs. 
This is a problem today, as many young kids think the blues are the real deal, when they are simply curs.
Cur is not an insult, except when referring to the ApBT breed. 
Nobody wanted a cur dog, a two pump chump and ten minute box hopper.
As it is, I am one of those who will never call a blue dog an ApBT.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Are you aware of a registry that's not?


I am...the Old Family Red Nose Registry. They will NEVER allow modern BS in it. 
If it isn't traditional, forget about it....


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Goemon said:


> The true Pit Dogs of the Blue variety came from Scotland, called the Blue Polls, or Pauls.
> They were fierce gladiators in the [], and would fight to the death.
> These dogs are now extinct, and I find little if any relation to them in today's dogs.
> They were larger than today's ApBT.
> ...


U know I have come to terms with the fact that u do know ur  however I do want to ask.... how can u be so certain that there are NO blue dogs with game. I gotta poke for more clarification on this statement. How can u be certain that ALL blue dogs are cur? That's a mighty large statement to place on color alone... there's a few blue dogs that are part of GP today that I think don't deserve the cur name.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

hedibenbrahim said:


> by cull you mean reject or kill ???
> 
> and of course their lack of DRIVE would make them a better catch dogs...


Yes cull means to eliminate the dog from your breeding stock.

I said l lack of drive for other dogs. It is hard to hog hunt when your dog would rather hit the bay dog then the pig. I have one other we tried he was good unless a different dog came into view. Needless to say you can't use a dog like the that.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Goemon said:


> I am...the Old Family Red Nose Registry. They will NEVER allow modern BS in it.
> If it isn't traditional, forget about it....


How do you prevent paper hanging as a registry. How does on monitor that?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> U know I have come to terms with the fact that u do know ur  however I do want to ask.... how can u be so certain that there are NO blue dogs with game. I gotta poke for more clarification on this statement. How can u be certain that ALL blue dogs are cur? That's a mighty large statement to place on color alone... there's a few blue dogs that are part of GP today that I think don't deserve the cur name.


Cur means not game if a dog is not tested and not even of tested lines then it is cur, not APBT. My boy Dooney may end up being decent catch dog but he still is a not a true APBT. I don't know of any in the US, and the belon club dogs are very few that turned out.

I realize you were not asking me just my thoughts.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Goemon said:


> The true Pit Dogs of the Blue variety came from Scotland, called the Blue Polls, or Pauls.
> They were fierce gladiators in the [], and would fight to the death.
> These dogs are now extinct, and I find little if any relation to them in today's dogs.
> They were larger than today's ApBT.
> ...


thanks... have you got any literature or records to support these statements ???


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Goemon said:


> I am...the Old Family Red Nose Registry. They will NEVER allow modern BS in it.
> If it isn't traditional, forget about it....


where can we get some Old Family Red Nose Registry pure subjects ???


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> U know I have come to terms with the fact that u do know ur  however I do want to ask.... how can u be so certain that there are NO blue dogs with game. I gotta poke for more clarification on this statement. How can u be certain that ALL blue dogs are cur? That's a mighty large statement to place on color alone... there's a few blue dogs that are part of GP today that I think don't deserve the cur name.


Call it my educated guess, lol. 
Do the math...when zero is multiplied by any number, what is the answer? Always zero of course. 
Apply that to dogs....why are AST's not considered ApBT's anymore?
Because they have not been matched. They are not designed for the [].
Now, if a dog, today is not an ApBT, we know it is a cur dog, a dog that will quit.
History is the witness to this.
Also, once gameness is lost, it is lost forever. 
Many who started with good blood have ruined the same blood, in regards to it's original purpose.

But let us look back at the original definitions on these terms.
*Gameness* is not a trait that makes a dog a bad ass. Being strong and barnstorming does not equal gameness.
Gameness, in fact, is only something that can be seen when a dog is taking a whipping.
The whole world can tell that dog he is losing, but that dog won't believe the world. He will scratch until he can move no longer.
*Cur* is the word used for all non-ApBT's. 
In relation to the ApBT breed, it is the biggest insult upon a dog.
The rest of the dog world fights out of fear, dominance, and jealousy...
But once the pressure is on, they whine and wimper and cry foul, LOL.

Also, most know the blues have poor health issues.
That alone would disqualify them as Pit Dogs.

If there are any out there, I have no clue who has em.
Never heard of a game blue dog, and most likely never will.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

hedibenbrahim said:


> thanks... have you got any literature or records to support these statements ???





hedibenbrahim said:


> where can we get some Old Family Red Nose Registry pure subjects ???


There are many books out there....many old magazines. 
Best is hearing it from those who were in the fraternity before the 1976 Animal Welfare Act.

I know of no breeders that will ship dogs out of the USA.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Blue was never considered the color of a Bulldog for a reason. Many want to believe that the dilution makes no difference, however the same people also want to believe that the years prior to 1976 Dogmen would fight anything tested and willing to go in the [],,

So the question then becomes, which is it? If the dilute is just simply a color, at some point some one would have tried and proved the theory wrong. In stead, it was proven to be far more in the mind linked to the dilution.

There are some fine "Blue" dogs out there, some great agility dogs, sporting dogs, even some relatively decent catch dogs.. More along the lines of strike dogs or trail. However, in the end you can't argue with the long documented history that is in black and white and available to any with questions.

There were plenty of rebel - minded thinkers involved in these Bulldogs, many had some seemingly quite ridiculous takes on genetics and what made a game dog perfected, such as all dogs not red are curs.. However, it worked for their own stock and there were always those behind them showing what foolish the belief was. You can bet your bank account if there was "blue" in purity and able, someone would have utilized that corner.. After all, would have been for at least the beginning the least bet on winner which in returns mean heavily profit with gambling.

The only thing that can be said without a doubt, post 76' is when the dilution REALLY took off and now you can't go into a shelter or walk down the street or go to a pet store without seeing at least one of these "blue" dogs..

I can speak from my own experiences, i would never feed a "blue" dog intended to for fill my own needs.. Inconsistent and too much quit in the genes. Been saying it for a while now.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> How do you prevent paper hanging as a registry. How does on monitor that?


I haven't personally been involved with those issues, a registry.
But I do know that time reveals the paper hangers. In the end they get caught.
Haven't heard of it in the OFRNR, while a young registry, it is becoming a tight knit community, and will continue to hopefully.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

No registry is fool proof, eventually time changes all.. ADBA is not what it used to be even though most hold it at very high standards.. Better than UKC, AKC.. But, then again would you rather eat McDonalds or ?


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Goemon said:


> Call it my educated guess, lol.
> Do the math...when zero is multiplied by any number, what is the answer? Always zero of course.
> Apply that to dogs....why are AST's not considered ApBT's anymore?
> Because they have not been matched. They are not designed for the [].
> ...


so GAMENESS can only be shown in the []. AND NO OTHER WAY ???


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

Goemon said:


> There are many books out there....many old magazines.
> Best is hearing it from those who were in the fraternity before the 1976 Animal Welfare Act.
> 
> I know of no breeders that will ship dogs out of the USA.


I can come over there and pick it up myself...


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Blue was never considered the color of a Bulldog for a reason. Many want to believe that the dilution makes no difference, however the same people also want to believe that the years prior to 1976 Dogmen would fight anything tested and willing to go in the [],,
> 
> So the question then becomes, which is it? If the dilute is just simply a color, at some point some one would have tried and proved the theory wrong. In stead, it was proven to be far more in the mind linked to the dilution.
> 
> ...


Krystal clear...


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

hedibenbrahim said:


> so GAMENESS can only be shown in the []. AND NO OTHER WAY ???


Depends on whom you ask, i would venture to say Goemon would say yes to your question.

In my opinion no, gameness can also be shown through any venture where a life and death scenario can rise as a biproduct testing what you feed.

Of course this is in part of what you are exposed to and what your experience tells you.. I can tell you scenarios of which can arise when hunting a boar that refuses to give in, a buck that gives up chase and fights back, pinning down an alpha male or small pack of wolves that do not quit that have taken dogs with ease.. The ability of which a single dog needs in order to survive after taking the pounding and come out on top is somethin' special, it may be dismissed by some however i can tell you different. I can also say under some extreme cases, protection dogs can also be arguably tested.. In my opinion, gameness and the similarity of mentality in such fields is not only historically accurate to suggest of War Mastiffs but highly viewed and sought for.

High end Bulldogs, traditional stock Bandogs.. Yes Sir.

There has been threads like this in the past, there is i believe another game thread of which myself and Stan (FireHazard) shared these views and attempted to shed light to others.

So i wont go into everything that has already been said.

HOWEVER, if we are strictly talking about the APBT as the Pit implies only one venue of instilled purpose.. Yes, there is only one method of such in order to accurately test as APBT.. After all, Bull Baiters and prior to APBT name Bulldogs have been around longer.. Same genetics, different names and purpose.. The genetics were there to perfect gameness, it didn't magically appear from thin air.


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## hedibenbrahim (Oct 5, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Depends on whom you ask, i would venture to say Goemon would say yes to your question.
> 
> In my opinion no, gameness can also be shown through any venture where a life and death scenario can rise as a biproduct testing what you feed.
> 
> ...


haaaaaaaaaaaaaaah... GAMENESS for me means never quit... it´s a mentality... not a limited physical strength... so I guess it can be tested in different other ways... 
My definition: 
GAMENESS est tout simplement ne jamais abandonner, et acharnement vouloir réussir au point d´ignorer tout le mal autour.
translation:
GAMENESS is simply never give up, and relentlessly want to succeed at the point to ignore all the evil around.


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## bradbenjamin1984 (8 mo ago)

hedibenbrahim said:


> Any thoughts about this Blue and Tan pattern on the history of real APBT ???
> 
> http://hqbullies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tri-color-pitbulls-for-sale.jpg


I have blue tan point from Lightner x ofrn x chinaman


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## bradbenjamin1984 (8 mo ago)

hedibenbrahim said:


> got ya
> 
> but what about Blue and Tan did it exist ???


Yes I have one . Just had 3 from breeding a red ofrn with blue eli


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