# Creating Game Bred English Bulldog advice



## njgautier (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm currently doing some research prior to starting my breeding program I plan on creating a game bred English Bulldog. I have experience breeding dogs but needed some advice on a solid blood line to select for breeding. 
my breeding plan will looking something like this. hoping to make a more athletic game english bulldog.


game bred pit x english bulldog litter "a"

litter a pup 50% pit 50% english bulldog x english bulldog litter "b"


pup from litter "b" x pup from litter "a"


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

This is absolutely the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Get the idea out of your head and get your dog fixed


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## Blueindian (May 10, 2012)

:goodpost::goodpost:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

If it can be done it has been done.. What would be the purpose of said animals that isnt already offered? Otherwise ill hold back the rest for now.


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## APASA (Dec 27, 2010)

Lol KM, ^^ when I read "hold back the rest for now" I get this mental image of an already informed parent giving their guilty child one chance to tell the truth, and the whole truth. And only the slightest little fib will all but end the life of the child


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

To follow this plan wou d actually be going backwards. Adding the inperfections of the EB to the already elite APBT. All you would be doing was taking a long route to create dogs that could never be winners. Hrrible... So long story short if your program is not bettering the dogs then you need to look back over said plan and see how you could out produce the already existing ABPT. If you can not for see doing so then it is a bad idea.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Those would not be game gred EBs. Those would be mutts. The "game bred" term has some controversy as well, as to what can/should be considered game bred. And from what opinions I have gathered, it means to have a game dog in the first 4 generations. Game is only proven in the []. The way u have ur "breeding program" planned out, any game bred traits will be gone....


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Rudy4747 said:


> To follow this plan wou d actually be going backwards. Adding the inperfections of the EB to the already elite APBT. All you would be doing was taking a long route to create dogs that could never be winners. Hrrible... So long story short if your program is not bettering the dogs then you need to look back over said plan and see how you could out produce the already existing ABPT. If you can not for see doing so then it is a bad idea.


 I have seen EB x Bulldog after two generations produce some good ole hog dogs.. Much like Whopper or Ole English, however no real point in attempting to produce anything "new" and "breed"... Also, said hog dogs wouldn't achieve what a high end Bulldog could do.. Solid and consistent, though hindered by wash in genetics..

Ironically, coding the same thus as you say going back to fundamental reversal, breeding out what once was which would take YEARS to accomplish. YEARS of no point..

As to producing Pit Dogs, no point. Even if in a country of which is legal, wouldn't compete with high end.. Wouldn't compete on any level that would prove significant.

OP, if you followed your "basis" of..
*game bred pit x english bulldog litter "a"
litter a pup 50% pit 50% english bulldog x english bulldog litter "b"
pup from litter "b" x pup from litter "a" *

Lets take for a moment this happened, "game bred" hammer to EB will produce nothing consistent, ALL significant draw backs of EB will be present in pups..

"50 Pit 50% EB mated to EB" essentially as you suggest will thus reverse your previous breeding, breeding back to a heavier EB mutt that will be inconsistent with results still, at best you'd have a non functional structure paired with the mentality of a Bulldog of which is just a throwback in genetics which creates the problem of no use dog..

Adult of first breeding, an Adult to your second breeding, will further produce EB type dogs.. Most of this breeding will essentially be EB with inconsistent nature and no functional use instilled nor structured ability.

Which if the "idea" is there of which i could guess, your "final" vision is more or less an OEB perhaps slightly more agile with a curve of function..

Which thus your function, again if i am reading into this the way perhaps you would be.. IS wash.. Many animals already serve of which and them that do already are ACE if in traditional stock..

SO.. This should be :flush: and go back to the basics.. Educate yourself first, anything else.. Well, perhaps lets start with knowledge.

If it can be done, it has been done. If it can be said, it has been said. ANYTHING you can imagine out of a canine it has been done through history many times over. Creation, extinction, recreation, creation, extinction.. Circle of one of the most coarse of histories, recreation is only as good as the knowledge foundation of which you possess as recreation is just an emphasis on the genetics buried but present in your foundation.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

:goodpost: KM! Kinda what I was gettin at but u said it better. Lol


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Great post KM :woof: for real though it is totally working backwards. The EB is the absolute most useless breed IMO. They have bred these dogs with so many faults its disgusting. I kinda don't agree with creating breeds of dogs that can't even breed on their own. That's just lame to me. So why take an APBT which is already the perfect dog, and screw it up by pairing it with a train wreck, it'll just make more dogs with faults.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Km good post taking steos back... What's the point?!?! Yeah I seen some good crosses usedas catch. But he said game and even if he was remotely successful, it would not be in his life time that he would see a dog uo to par with a good APBT. Unless he bred the EB back out. Then agin what's the point waisted time...


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

I think they call this a bully cross


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

why Make a breed when there is already breeds out there with the exact purpose you are aiming to acheive already. Why not just get into one of those breeds? why does everyone feel they have to play frankenstein and produce a whole new breed. Is it cause you have trouble breeding a certain breed to standard?


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## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

Uhm its been done its called the pocket or hog looking bully lol.Man dont do it please just leave it alone what the hell is wrong with all these BYB trying to create dogs breeds whatever they wanna call it


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## njgautier (Feb 27, 2013)

I've decided not to create a new line of bulldog. I just love the bulldog breed specifically the english and olde english bulldog. I have both. I was only hoping to create a more athletic dog that was muscular build, athletic, with drive and working ability, with the bulldog look. I know theres a ton of american bulldogs out there but those dogs are far too large in my opinion. I want a dog 50-65 lbs max.

My Olde 

















My English


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Well to you may seem like a great idea. To people that have vested time and efforts to produce better APBT well to them ypu are ruining the ultamte breed. The bulldog is already big part of the APBT their I a reason they evolved away from that into the animal of today.

The animal you describe is already out their. I would say the AMerican bulldog is what you are trying to create. But it is know that even they lack the gameness of the APBT. IF you find good working stock then you have a beastly good dog with solid frame athletic structure and great drive. No need to mix the subferior EB with APBT!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I would also like you to realize there is no guarantee when you breed dogs that are not similar in traits and takes YEARS decades for the trait to be in the line. Why mess with perfection?

Here is a great show that details how a mixed dog is more like a dog than its pure bred heritage. Starts around the 40 minute mark

Canine Genetics with Geneticist Dr. Kristopher Irizzary 07/03 by Pit Bulletin Legal News | Blog Talk Radio


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## bigjohn (Feb 25, 2013)

I trying to find out some info about the bloodline i have is macoy & cowbo an he is a 9 month old pit bull


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

bigjohn said:


> I trying to find out some info about the bloodline i have is macoy & cowbo an he is a 9 month old pit bull


best to start your own thread to ask this.You will get better and more responses directly to your question that way vs high jacking someone elses thread.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

bigjohn said:


> I trying to find out some info about the bloodline i have is macoy & cowbo an he is a 9 month old pit bull


At the top of the threads section there is a "new thread" button which you can click to start your own thread.


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## doughboi (Nov 10, 2012)

njgautier said:


> I've decided not to create a new line of bulldog. I just love the bulldog breed specifically the english and olde english bulldog. I have both. I was only hoping to create a more athletic dog that was muscular build, athletic, with drive and working ability, with the bulldog look. I know theres a ton of american bulldogs out there but those dogs are far too large in my opinion. I want a dog 50-65 lbs max.
> 
> My Olde
> 
> ...


Well get an American Bulldog Amstaff or amstaff bully


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XYihqJOZNU<
go talk to this guy. He seems to know whats up.


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

McCoyxCowboy? would have to see a pedigree


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

The Traditional long legged bulldog aka bullbiter aka bearbiter of original function~









































The American Pit Bull Terrier is the registered papered name for the original bulldog living in todays post modern time. Modern started in the 50s with all the new modern gadgets  .. this is post modern era .. the APBT, AST, SBT, Boston Terrier, American Bulldog, Dogo, and bandogs all come up as the same breed on a TRUE DNA test. The mtdna and dna goes back 1000yrs. In that all those are sub strains of the BULLDOG .. only ONE is still the 100% worker that it was 1000yrs ago. YOU can get the BULLDOG out of NOTHING BUT BONAFIDE or ADBA stock.. OR you can get one from someone who has done it already.


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

SDR AADR?? OFRNR?? LOL depends on what you want, right? Aslong as the dog and papers are right and it acts like it should..folks do hang papers also, so the source may and variety may differ.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

mccoypitbulls said:


> SDR AADR?? OFRNR?? LOL depends on what you want, right? Aslong as the dog and papers are right and it acts like it should..folks do hang papers also, so the source may and variety may differ.


:goodpost:
source is everything .. papers are only as honest as the man holding them. The dog is a representation of the papers behind em as much as the papers should be a representaion of what you get.. your DNA map.


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Very well put. :doggy:


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## davidandluna (Oct 18, 2012)

anything you could possibly be looking for in a dog, is probably out there already. No need to go trying to create something that you would never see completed in YOUR lifetime, especially if the only reason you are doing it is for your own interest or gain. And from what you've described, it sounds like you want a bulldog looking dog that is more athletic and could actually have some sort of working purpose... I'm on my phone atm so I cannot post a picture, but look up "alapaha blue blooded bulldog". Sounds to me pretty close to what you seem to want.


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## davidandluna (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog Information and Pictures - United Canine Association

That was the first link I could find with a good picture of the dog I was talking about. Looks like one hell of an athletic bulldog to me. I am actually considering getting one of these myself because I would really like to get into WP


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

American Bulldogs and Alapahas are stock and property guardians... pretty good companion catch hunters... They do not have the drive often enough to be used in weight pull consistantly.. are there some that do.. of course.. is it a natural strength for them.. not so much.. 

There is only one true bulldog .... they come registered as APBT. These are the dogs that out do all breeds at what they were bred at: like the weight pull, it was back in the early 80s and bulldogs were pulling twice the weight of Malamutes which are the big boy weight pullers when it comes to sleds and such up north. OF course they wanted to breed the Malamute to the APBT to get a better puller.. LOL they've already done that too.. and it works great for the iditarod not so much for competition pulls where a 75lbs APBT strain bulldog can out pull a 165lb malemute and more than most St Benards. 


If you wanna BIG BONED BIG PULLING BULLDOG.. Get a Whopper


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## davidandluna (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks for the advice firehazrd, Im definitely not the most experienced in the dog world, I was just trying to point out to him that there's plenty of dog breeds out there that meet or exceed whatever he was talking about doing with his EBs and was just pointing out one of the muscular bulldog breeds that kinds sounded like what he was aiming for. I was kinda leaning towards the alapaha because I love most of the bulldog lool and want an athletic dog, but im living in a pretty bad area at the moment and working graveyards I need a dog thats gonna keep my girlfriend and home safe while im gone at night, while not ripping my little staffy to shreds. The amstaff I have right now would more likely lick an intruder to death(assuming neither me or my girlfriend was home, she is really loyal and protective of both of us) then really do much to ward them off. The keeping my home/family safe while im not there is the main concern, the pulling is just something that seems like it could be fun to get into eventually, my bad for not specifying that in my post though. I've also been looking at some Rottie and GSD breeders as well. Just depends what will fit with our home and living situation the best. As well as my girlfriend being able to handle it lol. Sorry for getting off topic on here.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

JMO... no better man dog for a bulldog person other than a whopper, am bull, alapaha, bandog or a quality Rott. .. of all those.. Id go with the quality rott.. so their was limiting mistaken pit bull attacks to be confused... 95lb-105lb good rott is the best man stopper bar none (naturally untrained they know boundries and protect them) JMO from studies and experience. GSD IMO like the Mali is TO human like a pitbull mentality but for people.

Alapahas used to be all rottie like in the aspect of boundries and protection.. after Lana passed the dogs got washed. They were her fathers creation. As she was getting old she had expressed several times that those dogs crossed with am bulldog and with APBT and brought back in were NOT her stock handed down by her father they were from outside hands. DNA wise it really doesnt matter for any bulldog or bandog strain to add APBT working quality dogs especially dogs with good proven game in the first 4 gen, they improve all bulldog and bandog blood. 

What he's talking about is sensless it took Johnson and Garrett for ever to get the quirks out from those EB introductions.. English Bulldog has pug dna .. its from King George II and III who had a tradtional fighting pug of the day.. and a fighting bulldog .. soon these mixes came out and were purified under propaganda.. and if you know propaganda its not like any information is gonna jump out and say WHOOOO HERE I AM!! .. your gonna have to dig. The power of Google.. and it does matter what and how you google 

Whopper, Alapaha, American Bulldog, Chimera Sentry, Dogo, Presa, Cane Corso, Boerboel, Tosa, etc etc.. ... all these are bandogs once bulldogs go over 100+lbs they really are bandogs and a type of working mastiff. If it can be done it has.. your spot on advising for him to look into some thats been done already.


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## davidandluna (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks for the advice, the Rottie did seem like the best choice, I found a breeder pretty close to me a while ago that has some pretty good stuff to offer, lots of shiw/conformation titles in their studs and females as well as herding and other working type titles, I'm not an expert or even close by any means so I did a lot of research to make sure everything was as good as it sounded. Just think that's the best way to go for many of the reasons you stated. I guess it was the love for bulldogs in me that was considering the alapaha, but like you said they aren't the dogs that they once were even most of the breeders that I've looked into claim that they are. And im by no means a dog trainer, I have an uncle who trained GSD's and malinois' for policework and they are awesome dogs, but I am by no means equipped to deal with a true high drive GSD or the Mali. So Rottie will probably be the way to go for the reasons you've stated with their natural protective instincts... And they seem a hell of a lot easier to handle. Thanks for all the advice... Soaked up a lot of info since first joining this site. Living in California I feel like I might not be able to rely on that 870 in the bedroom too much longer lol.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

For man stopper a Doberman is the best bet. If I'm not mistaken they were bred solely for protection.


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## SteelRidgeKennels (Sep 6, 2010)

Just tap, I find them lacking in those areas. While the one I had would patrol the area, she lacked A LOT in the intelligence department.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

SteelRidgeKennels said:


> Just tap, I find them lacking in those areas. While the one I had would patrol the area, she lacked A LOT in the intelligence department.


That 1 thing always seems to be missing to have the total package for protection. Fate brought me a bandog. That mofo works out well, brains for days and I'm very confident the job gets done. If I were serious about needing to be protected, I would do tons of research on dogs, not breeds. Chimera has a good recipe for sentry dogs.


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## SteelRidgeKennels (Sep 6, 2010)

redog said:


> That 1 thing always seems to be missing to have the total package for protection. Fate brought me a bandog. That mofo works out well, brains for days and I'm very confident the job gets done. If I were serious about needing to be protected, I would do tons of research on dogs, not breeds. Chimera has a good recipe for sentry dogs.


So true. I believe that is the main issue with people selling what they call "protection" dogs because they tend to only breed for what they deem are traits that a protection dog needs. I want brains and lots of them....not just a programming that makes them do what people think they need to do...and I would hate to not enjoy a dog just because it was "bred" to be a protection dog.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

redog said:


> That 1 thing always seems to be missing to have the total package for protection. Fate brought me a bandog. That mofo works out well, brains for days and I'm very confident the job gets done. If I were serious about needing to be protected, I would do tons of research on dogs, not breeds. Chimera has a good recipe for sentry dogs.


:cheers: to that...


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

I've seen straight beast dobermans. Like any other dogs if they aren't bred for tested ajd culled they won't be good at their purpose. My family had a few when I was growing up. I'd be the first to admit my moms old doeberman was 100% family dog and had no issues protecting his yard or family without training. its what they were created to do... I've also seen pitbulls excel at bitework with proper training. To each their own but if it wasn't pits in my yard it'd be German working dobermans.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Also there is a big difference between a sentry dog, guard dog, and personal protection dog. No dog can be all three. It's all about training. If you look at any true trainer of personal protection, sentry, and guard dogs they will tell u that. A sentry dog is a deterant, a guard dog will attack anything but its handler when on the job and a personal protection dog will act off of threat, or command to protect itself and its handler...


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I had a german doberman that was trained and owned by a three letter agency's daughter that got loose while she was visiting a friend and well long story short.. from the SPCA after 3 months to my place. She had Deutch commands and was very intelligent, a hell of a watch dog.. Unless your just stricten with fear, she wasn't a good man stopper. Female @ 95lbs and was ripped could run, thats for sure.. They dont bite right, they bite like scissors which is good for chewing someone up, BUT not so much for controlled bite. Each person wants differernt guard dog traits for sure.. I personally want the dog that can stop a man, and if someones ghetto "pit" runs out and hits em up they aren't gonna break and will probably cur that ghetto hound.


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## SteelRidgeKennels (Sep 6, 2010)

I don't crave for a protection dog. I wouldn't mind a dog that "looked" the part, but I will get something I enjoy. I really like the Boerborels (Pretty sure I just butchered the spelling). I have heard a lot of positives about their intelligence. You can tell thats a big thing for me. I hate stupid dogs. Big con about that breed is its hard to find good ones in this country and usually the best are imported from South Africa.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Like I said to each their own. Plenty of proven protection dobes out there. They just happen to be high on my ownable list. I don't expect others to feel the same. Just can't disnote a dog that was bred for the purpose being deployed for the purpose. Wouldn't match a beagle lol so yeah it depends on what u want an the individual dog you own and the time you put in as to what your end product will be. Either way breeding all these different dogs together to "make a game bred bulldog" is the stupidest stuff I've heard in awhile.


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## SteelRidgeKennels (Sep 6, 2010)

Completely agree with that statement..this tread ranks in my top WTF posts...haha...Leave the breed creation to people who have a clue...which these days are about NONE! Just get a breed that shows the traits and keep it pure.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Firehazard said:


> I personally want the dog that can stop a man, and if someones ghetto "pit" runs out and hits em up they aren't gonna break and will probably cur that ghetto hound.


I know camelot bullys will do that for sure. A lot of them are hot and a few have been trained pp dogs. But if u want a legit pp dog it can't want to rip the dog on the other side of the field up before the person decoying. Some of those whopper dogs have some heat to them too. I know my Chevy camelot/Peterson dagger male has some fire to him. He also won't hesitate to get up in someone acting aggressive towards me. But you'd never know it by being around him. Sweetest dog u could meet. He let's my friends 2 yr old treat his life.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

you lost me with Bully.. Camelot.. is whopper, and whopper I mention is one of the best  They have been since day one. Whopper throws short squatty brick houses and bam its a bully.. LOL then they bred em that way. .. The best whopper dogs are in OKLA. 

If you want an all around intelligenct big boned dog that reserved and will stop man or beast or two in one.. Chimera, Tosa, Boer, or get a Rottie... Everything else is piece work and speculation.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

By bully camelot I ment kenneys productions not arts. Neither have anything to do with whopper. Not until this past couple years has kenny bought any Chevy or whopper dogs....


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

whopper... across the board JMO the camelot gene pool is not working quality or traditional quality OFRN and early in their stock there is :roll:dities. 
I've seen em since day one, and was advised by the best of em, those and the same allowed me to tag along to see the hand me downs of Lightner dogs, Morgan dogs, Castillo dogs, first hand; I also have seen a world of rung dogs and dogs claiming OFRN only but infact had whopper influx as they were big lazy 100lb dogs compared to the 85lbs hellfire coming out of lightners hand me downs, oh yeh intense but nothing compared to the real OFRN. .... Whopper... Not saying whopper is bad, I know a good deal about it and how to manipulate it to its best and extremes, however most people who bring in whopper have NO idea what they've got and it turns to mush, basically they end up with a mastiff not even a working bandog. Just a liability if its HA. As most with whopper are. ... I know big OFRN dogs and I know true OFRN dogs. 

Just not a fan, I know they put in as much work as anyone.. as a breeder I take the genepool of stock most seriously.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> you lost me with Bully.. Camelot.. is whopper, and whopper I mention is one of the best  They have been since day one. Whopper throws short squatty brick houses and bam its a bully.. LOL then they bred em that way. .. The best whopper dogs are in OKLA.
> 
> If you want an all around intelligenct big boned dog that reserved and will stop man or beast or two in one.. Chimera, Tosa, Boer, or get a Rottie... Everything else is piece work and speculation.


I would disagree with those being the only.. good stock Dogos will out perform most of those, you know what I'm working on so I'm bias towards my own work..

Them Tosas if it ain't from a proper program and closed yard its wash, following trend over massed animals who can still put in the work but hindered in the wind.

As the old saying goes..


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

What is a whopper influx and what does whopper have to do with Camelot?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

It would be easier for you to go to the ol' whopper threads where this has all been covered in full detail. I answered what it has to do with camelot, time for you to do your own homework and educate yourself. People in general dont learn much when they are in the "proove it" mentality; its better to proove it to yourself, do your homework. Influx would be like a solid shot of whopper between two solid bozo bred dogs, like sandwich when dogs are bred this way the traits and genes work different with the 1/4 shot sandwiched rather than out on the wing top or bottom. Does that make senes? 
If not go over the genetic coversations, Search: OFRN, BLUE, and MERLE with DNA or Genetics for in depth conversations. 

KM :cheers: that goes without saying  go to the SOURCE  yeh, usually I throw the dogo in there as you know.. I knew I forgot one important one but I couldnt snag it off the hamster wheel as it ran round and round.. You already know ....


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Stan I got to say man the best whopper blood any more is not in OK been mixed and mactched. The best whoper eddington stuff is in MO they have some great stuff there. Eddington with outbthe whopper to.

As far any working dogs any more it all depends on the source. So much of everything is watered down any more.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Rudy4747 said:


> Stan I got to say man the best whopper blood any more is not in OK been mixed and mactched. The best whoper eddington stuff is in MO they have some great stuff there. Eddington with outbthe whopper to.
> 
> As far any working dogs any more it all depends on the source. So much of everything is watered down any more.


:thumbsup: its been a minute since I've been back to OKLA.. Last I was there in 06' there were still some of the best eddington and whopper stock accross the board. Years go by and things change people move.. so on and so on. The whopper was known as the oklahoma bulldog among whopper folks and they couldnt get it coined because the true Oklahoma Bulldog is the Sooner Bulldog it is the traditional bulldog in the field and an ACE in the []. 

I do like some good whopper, IMO not a better hog dog or hunting bulldog they are hard and rough and if balanced a good working bulldog for sure, as you said Rudy, .. Its all wash for the most part now.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> It would be easier for you to go to the ol' whopper threads where this has all been covered in full detail. I answered what it has to do with camelot, time for you to do your own homework and educate yourself. * People in general dont learn much when they are in the "proove it" mentality; its better to proove it to yourself, do your homework.* Influx would be like a solid shot of whopper between two solid bozo bred dogs, like sandwich when dogs are bred this way the traits and genes work different with the 1/4 shot sandwiched rather than out on the wing top or bottom. Does that make senes?
> If not go over the genetic coversations, Search: OFRN, BLUE, and MERLE with DNA or Genetics for in depth conversations.
> 
> KM :cheers: that goes without saying  go to the SOURCE  yeh, usually I throw the dogo in there as you know.. I knew I forgot one important one but I couldnt snag it off the hamster wheel as it ran round and round.. You already know ....


Ain't that the truth,, You can say what you wish and back up your statements as you wish however if those listening are not paying for knowledge or seeking it themselves than its all dismissed any how. Don't believe it go out and prove it to yourself OR prove it wrong yourself.. Either way it is up to the person. Proof is always in history again and again.

Source is everything but more importantly you need to know A) The function you seek B) What defines as such and what genetically hinders, improves and what has already been proven.. C) Look at your history and going back to genetics, know what has done what.. Look for traditional stock and as an end result, you have what your after.

IMO Whopper has a better foundation for a yard than it is producer or straight ability, even some of your best Whopper dogs tend to be hindered by sheer mass in some form or another. Produce some great catch weight Bulldogs however when you really look at it, still lack that of high end Bulldogs or high end Bandogs.. If your looking for a functional Whopper, even if falling under the Bandog weight game, might as well get yourself a "real" Mastiff.. If your looking for a Bulldog, hell go to the source of stock worthy as such. Whoppers fall in a unique grey area as in itself its neither Bulldog nor Bandog status, by name of ability and usability..Versatility nor out right function.. All the same.. THUS the best place would be a high(er) end Whopper being bred back in for foundation.. Breed what is out or breed to for catch weight..


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

I didn't expect anyone to prove it. I'd do the research if there was research to be done. I'm well versed in camelot and whopper blood. My very good friend whole yard is whopper. I've spoken numerous times to kenny Sonia, and jack Ellis.(Ellis being the front runner with whopper and kenny with camelot) it has never come up in ped or convo with anyone versed with these dogs that camelot are whopper dogs except with you so I simply asked. I'll look up that old thread but I can simply look in my dogs ped to see that atleast on paper camelot isn't whopper. Both may be a form of bandogge but that's where the similarities end.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Km just saying I have seen whopper dogs that are great mam you find the right whopper dogs and you can get aomething special for sure. I wouldn't expect any one who hasn't seen one with their own eyes to think other widmse.I seen a lil ol 38 poumder lil powerful beast.

But like stan said all that okie land of whopper and wven then you have to have been aroumd people with the right whopper stock. I am lucky enough to have freinds that sat at the same dinner table as mr eddington so I seen some of the best whopper stuff. Round and know they semt most up north to MO.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Rudy4747 said:


> Km just saying I have seen whopper dogs that are great mam you find the right whopper dogs and you can get aomething special for sure. I wouldn't expect any one who hasn't seen one with their own eyes to think other widmse.I seen a lil ol 38 poumder lil powerful beast.
> 
> But like stan said all that okie land of whopper and wven then you have to have been aroumd people with the right whopper stock. I am lucky enough to have freinds that sat at the same dinner table as mr eddington so I seen some of the best whopper stuff. Round and know they semt most up north to MO.


I forrest gumped into whopper handed down from eddingtons from similar folk  I also had about 30 whopper dogs in 2002. Likewise I produced a 3/4 eddington dog that was all to eager to complete any task he was 35lbs.

I tell you to do your own homework because whopper is rung. Parkers Bouncer is 50% extinct and original strain of DDB. I know this and I have been able to manipulate and get dogs from the whopper most people dream of and stole for :stick: In the whopper world from day one there is alot of paper ringing and there has always been. Folks have put whopper papers on American bulldogs and everything else. I've seen big game dogs that were stolen from here or there and rung with whopper. SO my PROOF is in the founding knowledge of canine genetics. If the dogs ped says pure OFRN and its a fat 100lbs slow poke compared to the rest of the stock then obviously someone has rung a dog. You can see in the OFRN peds esspecially slender rangy OFRN dogs them bam a rung dog and the offspring is some gargantuan behemoth that supposedly is all morgan or what ever take your pick its out there by the dime a dozen. If you know OFRN stock then you know when a dog is rung.. Just like any other line..

It really doesnt matter who you talk to, unless they understand the diversity: 125lbs-28lbs I've seen most of the whopper stuff out there and well only the people that understand the dogs without looking at pedigree because in this case its not honest, unless you can understand your working with a world of mismatched traits and diversity because of the DDB. I've seen very few dogs from who your boasting about that were impressive in any form, very few. Mostly they look like the whopper stuff everywhere else.

Its all about source and quality stock ..


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

I see what you're saying. They're all bandogs. All I was saying with the original posts was that I know for a fact that some of kennys stock has been trained and titled in pp and that they're know for maintaining the heat of yesteryear. That's very well known by anyone with camelot pits stock. To add to that arts stock was extremely game and produced winners. Art bred for pit dogs and boar hunters. I've read stories of duke leaving shot glass sized holes in other dogs. I wasnt trying to argue or cause a fuss, come over condescending or arrogant. I just know about these dogs and was sharing my view point.


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