# Fight broke out tonight.



## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

First, if this is in the wrong place then I apologize. Still trying to figure out where everything goes here.

Anyways, I posted in the intro thread about getting my new pup, Athena, http://www.gopitbull.com/introduction-forum/29011-new-forum-have-question.html She's an American Bully as I've found out from being here for a short time. She is fine and wasn't in the fight but I think she might have had something to do with it.

We have been dog sitting our friends APBT for a few days now. Not something I will do again. He's a good dog, just hasn't had any direction and is a little hyper for our pack. Well, my dog Smudge (below) has not been the friendliest with him. Nothing major has broken out but there were a couple instances of Smudge snapping at him.

Tonight, Spike (friends APBT) was chewing on a bone. Athena (new pup) got close and Spike snapped at her. As soon as Spike snapped at Athena, Smudge got in his face. I "thought" I backed down Smudge quickly enough but as soon as I saw what was happening I was too late to stop it (still kicking myself for that one!!!). Smudge latched on to Spike's neck. Luckily Spike wasn't trying to fight back and my other dogs stayed out of the way. Spike is fine. No skin was broken. Just a slobbered neck.

Not quite sure what I'm looking for with this post but I do have a few questions.

1. Does this sound like a DA problem with my dog Smudge or does it sound more like he was "protecting" Athena? It was almost like Spike snapping at her was the excuse Smudge was looking for. I have 6 dogs in my pack and he's never gotten in a fight with any of them.

2. Does it look like Smudge has pit or something close in him? I've thought so and am just curious.

I have to say though that I won't be dogsitting for anyone anytime soon. With the addition of Spike for the last few days I've realized that my pack isn't quite under the amount of control that I want/need. It's frustrating though because they have all listened fairly well in the past. That was up until Spike showed up. If anyone is curious, Smudge is 2 and yes, he is neutered.

*disclaimer* I don't offend easy so if there is something I should be doing that I'm not then by all means let me have it. I just want to reiterate that I had no issues with DA until we brought Spike in. Not blaming him by any means at all. I do think my dog is to blame for most of it, but I also think Spike's energy set something off in two of my males.

I have another question regarding one of my other males, Cleveland, but I'll save that for another thread. I think I've rambled on in here enough. Here's a pic of Smudge.

And he's not as fat as he might look. I get that all the time. He is very solid.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Well, APBT are not pack dogs. They are people dogs and while DA may not always be present, it should be expected. 

The #1 mistake here was leaving the dogs out with a new/unknown dog (Spike) and a prized item, the bone. 

I am by no means a behaviorist so that is my only 2 cents to add here. 

Smudge looks like he might have some Bermese Mountain Dog in him maybe. You should post pictures from different angles.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

IMO...Dogs are territorial. Smudge is the alpha. Athena is a part of his pack. Spike is not and is an intruder on his territory. You being the pack leader or alpha didn't step in when you should have so Smudge took it upon himself to. It was just a warning because from the looks of Smudge he'd of done more than just slobber if he meant business. As for what he looks like I'm no expert on it but kinda looks like American Bulldog or St. Bernard. Can't help you there....sorry. Glad nothing bad happened.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Carriana said:


> Well, ABPT are not pack dogs. They are people dogs and while DA may not always be present, it should be expected.
> 
> The #1 mistake here was leaving the dogs out with a new/unknown dog (Spike) and a prized item, the bone.


Pretty much.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

Carriana said:


> Well, ABPT are not pack dogs. They are people dogs and while DA may not always be present, it should be expected.
> 
> The #1 mistake here was leaving the dogs out with a new/unknown dog (Spike) and a prized item, the bone.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. This happened in my living room right in front of me!!! That's why I'm so mad at myself. I saw what was coming and just didn't react fast enough.

I'm going to assume that there are people here that have more than one APBT, correct?


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. This happened in my living room right in front of me!!! That's why I'm so mad at myself. I saw what was coming and just didn't react fact enough.
> 
> I'm going to assume that there are people here that have more than one APBT, correct?


Yes there are but I think you'll find that they generally don't have so many roaming around together at one time.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

lol we have members with over 20 and pretty much none can be together as there natural instincts come in and they show signs of DA or are very DA. It tends to come with the breed. But your sound kinda territorial dominance. Your male didn’t like the dog (at which point they should have been separated for the duration of you watching the dog) and when you didn’t stop him he took over.
Good news is it sounds like your pup has at least decent bite inhabition other wise it would have been bloody!


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

coppermare said:


> IMO...Dogs are territorial. Smudge is the alpha. Athena is a part of his pack. Spike is not and is an intruder on his territory. You being the pack leader or alpha didn't step in when you should have so Smudge took it upon himself to. It was just a warning because from the looks of Smudge he'd of done more than just slobber if he meant business.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking as well. 



> As for what he looks like I'm no expert on it but kinda looks like American Bulldog or St. Bernard. Can't help you there....sorry. Glad nothing bad happened.


Here's a pic of his brother, Cleveland. St. Bernard is something we've thought as well. Sorry it's not the best pic.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

Aireal said:


> lol we have members with over 20 and pretty much none can be together as there natural instincts come in and they show signs of DA or are very DA. It tends to come with the breed. But your sound kinda territorial dominance. Your male didn't like the dog (at which point they should have been separated for the duration of you watching the dog) and when you didn't stop him he took over.


Yeah, just wish I would have realized this sooner. I have NEVER has a problem with any of my dogs getting in altercations. Luckily, VERY lucky, I learned a almost painful lesson. I've already said that they aren't allowed to be around each other until Spike leaves.



> Good news is it sounds like your pup has at least decent bite inhabition other wise it would have been bloody!


Who are you telling???!!! Scared the living crap outta me!!! I've just never had a dog that showed any kind of DA. Of course, if I'd have done my job it never would have gotten out of hand to begin with! 



aus_staffy said:


> Yes there are but I think you'll find that they generally don't have so many roaming around together at one time.


Just so I'm clear, Athena is the only "pit" I have. My others are all mutts, but I understand what you are saying. Thanks for the input.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

No worries. Don't feel too bad about it, nearly everyone here with more than one dog has had an incident or two. Just be aware that although you only have 1 "pit" it can only take a tiny trigger to turn things very ugly. Be safe .


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

aus_staffy said:


> No worries. Don't feel too bad about it, nearly everyone here with more than one dog has had an incident or two. Just be aware that although you only have 1 "pit" it can only take a tiny trigger to turn things very ugly. Be safe .


Yeah, it really was an eye opener. I'll be happy if it never happens again but hopefully I'll be smarter now to avoid those situations and be quicker to recognize an issue.

Thanks all for the input.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. This happened in my living room right in front of me!!! That's why I'm so mad at myself. I saw what was coming and just didn't react fast enough.
> 
> I'm going to assume that there are people here that have more than one APBT, correct?





aus_staffy said:


> Yes there are but I think you'll find that they generally don't have so many roaming around together at one time.


It doesn't matter what the location was, what matters is that they were out together after some pretty clear body language from your dog's part that he was not digging Spike being around. Then there was a bone thrown into the mix, which was the catalyst.

I myself own 3 dogs, a pit mix, a APBT and a little mutt dog. They all get along, thankfully, but because we raised them that way. We crate 2 of them when we have to leave them alone and they are never left alone together.

Several of the members with a multi-pit household have adopted the crate and rotate method, which is what you do with high drive DA dogs who would just love to tear into each other.

But hey, lesson learned, not all dogs get along, and not every dog belongs in a "pack".


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I totally agree with Carriana here not all dogs belong in a pack. I myself have two males, both fixed, one is APBT and one is a pit mix. They get along great but we do take precautions to make sure things stay that way. My boys don't eat together and they are always separated if they have bones or treats to avoid any confrontations. I think that's where things went wrong here. Dogs are territorial and some get very food aggressive so it is always a good idea to have them separated when they have bones or treats. Either in separate rooms or in crates.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Carriana said:


> Well, APBT are not pack dogs. They are people dogs and while DA may not always be present, it should be expected.
> 
> The #1 mistake here was leaving the dogs out with a new/unknown dog (Spike) and a prized item, the bone.
> 
> ...


:clap: APBTs need an ALPHA on point always vigilant even in our sleep  to be able to work as a pack, when I say APBTs I mean game bred dogs all APBTs are allowed to be DA it part of their package  Yes Smudge does look like a mix, APBT/St.Benard, have a buddy who had a litter of these 1generation moutain dogs ((LOL)) 
If your babysitting someones APBT, theres nothing more valuable than a crate for him/her and everybody else.. Its nice for you to, because the dogs just like you need their own time and space.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I would like to know if all of your other dogs are males? If they are you might have troubles down the road as Athena grows up. Vendetta gets along great with all the boys here but she doesn't really care for the females. Mikado loved all the girls but didn't do well other males. I have found in reading about this breed this is the rule of thumb for the most part again nothing set in stone here.

Next time just don't have a bone out for one of them to chew on. If you want to give everyone a bone make sure they all have seperate places to go with them.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

MY MIKADO said:


> I would like to know if all of your other dogs are males? If they are you might have troubles down the road as Athena grows up. Vendetta gets along great with all the boys here but she doesn't really care for the females. Mikado loved all the girls but didn't do well other males. I have found in reading about this breed this is the rule of thumb for the most part again nothing set in stone here.


These are my dogs. Little more info than asked, I know.

Spike (different than one in the story) - 13 Female Shepherd mix (I believe)
Sky - 14 Female Lab/Husky
Smudge - 2 Male pit/st. bernard (I think)
Cleveland - 2 Male pit/st. bernard (I think)
Duke - 7/8 months Male Border Collie Mix (I think)
Athena - 11 weeks Female Amer. Bully

Spike and Sky I've had since Sky was 2 and Spike was 6 months. GREAT dogs, but unfortunately they are aging quickly.  I try to be optimistic but I don't think they are going to make it past another year. 



> Next time just don't have a bone out for one of them to chew on. If you want to give everyone a bone make sure they all have seperate places to go with them.


This is why I'm mad at myself. There are enough bones in their toy basket for all of them. The problem was I didn't stop Athena when I saw her getting to close to Spike (APBT) with his bone.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Quit slapping yourself...lol You made a mistake we all have when dealling with dogs you are always second guessing every move they make. 

As a pesron that has a mulit dog household most are mix breeds too. I can tell you it is not really easy to throw a pit in the mix. Like I said Vendetta is great with all the males my sister has two females my son has one female I have to keep V away from them as she like to "socialize" with them. 

I'm sorry that your two oldies are not feeling too well. I lost my Maggie Bea-yellow lab at 19 1/12yrs ago. I stll miss her.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

You've gotten good advice and answers to your questions here. You know your mistake, now just be sure not to make it again. Are all your other dogs altered (not counting Athena), as in spayed/neutered? Not in anyway am I saying this will change their temperament, just curious. It won't matter when it comes to food aggression, or being territorial.. but _*sometimes*_ it does cut down on general aggression. From now on, to cut down on the likelihood of this happening again, feed everyone and treat everyone separately. You have to be quicker to respond than you were here, but I'm guessing you already know this...

I, too, would guess that Cleveland and Smudge are St. Bernard mix... roughly how tall/heavy are they? I can't really tell from the pix, but are they medium length coats, or more on the longer side. Do they have a double coat, like an under coat and a top coat? If so, I would definintely venture to say they're St. Bernard mixes.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

MY MIKADO said:


> Quit slapping yourself...lol You made a mistake we all have when dealling with dogs you are always second guessing every move they make.
> 
> As a pesron that has a mulit dog household most are mix breeds too. I can tell you it is not really easy to throw a pit in the mix. Like I said Vendetta is great with all the males my sister has two females my son has one female I have to keep V away from them as she like to "socialize" with them.
> 
> I'm sorry that your two oldies are not feeling too well. I lost my Maggie Bea-yellow lab at 19 1/12yrs ago. I stll miss her.


I'm trying to stop slapping myself. LOL! Just mad I saw what was happening and didn't react fast enough.

The little I've read, since Athena is a Bully, I "should" have less of DA issues when she is older, correct?

My two old girls still have bursts of energy at times but their hips really are not doing well.



ThaLadyPit said:


> You've gotten good advice and answers to your questions here. You know your mistake, now just be sure not to make it again. Are all your other dogs altered (not counting Athena), as in spayed/neutered? Not in anyway am I saying this will change their temperament, just curious. It won't matter when it comes to food aggression, or being territorial.. but _*sometimes*_ it does cut down on general aggression. From now on, to cut down on the likelihood of this happening again, feed everyone and treat everyone separately. You have to be quicker to respond than you were here, but I'm guessing you already know this...
> 
> I, too, would guess that Cleveland and Smudge are St. Bernard mix... roughly how tall/heavy are they? I can't really tell from the pix, but are they medium length coats, or more on the longer side. Do they have a double coat, like an under coat and a top coat? If so, I would definintely venture to say they're St. Bernard mixes.


With the exception of Athena and Duke, all others are spayed/neutered. Duke will be getting done as soon as the "boys" finish dropping. LOL!

Not sure about height but both Smudge and Cleveland stand taller than the APBT. Cleveland by a couple inches. Smudge is 70 lbs and Cleveland is around 75-80 lbs now. Smudge has short hair closer to an APBT but is a little longer. Cleveland has a longer coat but nothing like an undercoat. He has a cowlick in the middle of his shoulders on his back and both of them have an underbite. Cleveland's is much more prominent though. I'll get some better pics of them up later tonight and post them in another thread.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes from my understanding Am.Bullies are less DA. Shana ( indigo connection has bullies so she would know more about that. 

I'm sorry the girls are having trouble with their hips. My DaVinci ( Novia Scotia Duck Toller mix) is only 4 yr old but has horrible hips plus he is going blind. I feel so bad for him. I have had since he was 4weeks old. He is still mostly enjoying life so we keeping on keeping on.


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## coppermare (Jun 25, 2010)

There is a short haired St. Bernard. Because ice cycles formed on the coats of the long haired. The underbite could just be genetic or he could have some American Bulldog in him. 
We have four adult bullies and two pups. We have had up to 8 at one time. I personally think it has nothing to do with it and it all depends on the individual dog. Saying one type is more agressive than another type is the same as saying one breed is more agressive than another. It's stereotyping. I will agree that certain traits from parents or bloodlines will produce certain traits though. Most of our bullies are not DA unless pushed and then all out killer monster comes from them. So I wouldn't bank on saying bullies are less DA. Read my post about Oso, he's VERY dog agressive and it didn't really happen until he matured. He and Lee grew up together with my Weimaraner. There was the occasional "food" scrap but it was never serious. Sounded horrible but never anyone hurt. Mature and introduce a female in heat and the tables turned and Oso almost got killed. Ever since him and Lee have been VERY DA. About a week ago Lee got into it with Chao. Not a pretty sight. Both had some nasty injuries. Both were in two adjoining pens, one with a pup and chained up inside the pen. Had been that way for months. The pup dug a hole under the fence and they got mixed together. Lee again hurt Chao pretty bad. My daughter is learning the hard way to never take anything for granted they have to be like maximum security inmates!! And that Lee (who is my five year old grandson's and the most loving of any we have owned, loves cats, so laid back) is the most vicious of all we own when it comes to fighting. He doesn't play, he doesnt stop, he grabs by the throat, shakes, holds and NEVER releases. It is a horrible sight to witness. I know from being on this board that Gage will always be away from other dogs and won't be trusted with "his pack" here inside the house once he fully matures. After all Lee is his sire.

Oh, forgot, here is a pic of a short haired St. Bernard
http://www.greatdogsite.com/breeds/details/Saint_Bernard/


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

I can certainly see some resemblance between the two. Thanks.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Carrianna gave the best advice here but here is some more info on APBT's/Bully and living with other dogs.

APBT and Bullies can and normally will have some level of DA. Bullies tend to be less aggressive however this may not totally be the case so I would treat them as an APBT.

The NEVER EVERS of owning multiple dogs especially APBT's

never let them have food items out like bones to chew on, give those separate in crates but do not have them lying around or let dogs wonder while a dog is chewing on one.

Never feed them together or in separate corners of the room, they should be separated but a door or fed in crates. You should never free feed and leave food down all the time.

Never trust a bulldog not to fight, they were bred for 100's of year to fight other animals, that instinct is still here today, know what your breed was bed to do and you will have a better understanding of how to keep them.

Never leave your bulldog alone with other dogs while you are gone, you could come home to a dead dog even if they got along for years with no problem.

I have about 18 APBT's right now and only 2 sets of dogs get along enough to go out in the dog runs together and that could always change. They are not pack dog and when maturity hits many dogs have to be separated or they will fight. I have had dogs get along for over 7 years and live just fine in the house then one day, they tried to kill each other and still hate each to this day. Keep this in mind as your pup grows that you may have to separate them from the rest of the pack at some point. Some dogs get along just fine but it is more common to have to separate them. Those that have success keeping multiple APBT's also follow the rules above to avoid fights breaking out.

Now your dog did the attacking on the APBT and you are lucky the APBT did not do any damage. Your mistake there was having the bone out in the first place, it sounds like you learned from it and now you know how to avoid that situation in the future.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Smudge - 2 Male pit/st. bernard (I think)
Cleveland - 2 Male pit/st. bernard (I think)

Since they are both 2 it could be likely they are now adults. DA may not show itself until they are 2 or over. I would keep an extra close eye on those two.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> Carrianna gave the best advice here but here is some more info on APBT's/Bully and living with other dogs.
> 
> APBT and Bullies can and normally will have some level of DA. Bullies tend to be less aggressive however this may not totally be the case so I would treat them as an APBT.
> 
> ...


Not to sound confrontational, I really am trying to learn more, but is there ANY time they are allowed to be together??? From the sounds of things it seems as if everyone is suggesting they are separated for 23 hours and then have one hour of supervised time in the yard (sarcasm intended).


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

It depends on the dogs, Never leave them home alone together when you are not there even if they get along.
If they get along then you can have them around the house when your home , that's fine but when you are one separate them, it is the smart thing to do with this breed.

Then don't feed them together or leave food out and you should be ok. Most APBT's have to be separated from all dogs at all times but some can live in peace it just depends on the dog, but to live in piece there are some rules you should follow.

Many people after they find out proper management of the breed decide the breed is not for them and that is understandable, some also chose to ignore advice about the breed and this when dogs die. This breed even mixed in with another breed is not for everyone and does require more management than many other breeds. Also you have two males that are reaching maturity and no matter what the breed sometimes you will see problem with that as well. To truly have a multi dog home you have to have control over the dogs and manage them wisely. Again bones left around the house to chew on are a big no no with more breeds and multiple dogs. You are just asking for a fight like you just had. I hope this gives you something to think about and right now your pack is fine because of the ages of the dogs but remember as they mature that will likely change.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> It depends on the dogs, Never leave them home alone together when you are not there even if they get along.
> If they get along then you can have them around the house when your home , that's fine but when you are one separate them, it is the smart thing to do with this breed.
> 
> Then don't feed them together or leave food out and you should be ok. Most APBT's have to be separated from all dogs at all times but some can live in peace it just depends on the dog, but to live in piece there are some rules you should follow.
> ...


Fair enough. Thanks for the input.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I would have to say that I do not think those two have pit in them. Where did you get from? 

I have to say that if you start to react different to your dogs this can alos cause problems. If you only have ad this once accident and Spike being a guest then I would chalk it up a leason learned about bring strange dogs into your household.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Not to sound confrontational, I really am trying to learn more, but is there ANY time they are allowed to be together??? From the sounds of things it seems as if everyone is suggesting they are separated for 23 hours and then have one hour of supervised time in the yard (sarcasm intended).


I have 8 dogs and they are separate 24/7........ My American Bully and Chihuahua are together and that is it.

When dealing with Pitbulls, bully type dogs or bully mixes you are at risk of DA and it only takes once for a sever fight that can seriously harm one of your dogs. They are not meant for pack situations.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Now I have many dog here. Vendetta is with all the boys all the time except for when we go somewhere. Then it is River and Pheonix that are not crated while everyone else in crates. During the day my girl is with all three boys all day long. She sleep with me ad DaVinci.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

At this point in time I have seven dogs at the house... I am fortunate enough to have combos that I can put the dogs out in.

Here are my combos that I can have together supervised and listed by age:

Mable (11) english bulldog- Jarvis- Indigo, Cree, Pig, and Felony

Jarvis (8ish) dingo mutt- Neela, Indigo, Mable, Cree, Felony, and Pig

Neela (7) apbt -Jarvis

Indigo (3) am bully -Jarvis, mable, cree, felony, pig

Cree (1.5) am bully- jarvis (situational), mable, indigo, felony, pig

Felony (1.5) am bully- jarvis, mable, indigo, and cree

Pig (1.5) am bully- jarvis (situational), mable, Indigo, and Cree.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

MY MIKADO said:


> I would have to say that I do not think those two have pit in them. Where did you get from?
> 
> I have to say that if you start to react different to your dogs this can alos cause problems.* If you only have ad this once accident and Spike being a guest then I would chalk it up a leason learned about bring strange dogs into your household*.


I honestly think that's it. None of my dogs have EVER acted this way until he showed up. Like I said, not blaming the APBT entirely since it was my dog that started it and I failed to react in the first place.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

That may be the case just keep the things we have said in the back of your mind so you can avoid problems in the future. You have a bully or pit puppy that will mature and two males going into maturity, best to avoid problems for the future.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> That may be the case just keep the things we have said in the back of your mind so you can avoid problems in the future. You have a bully or pit puppy that will mature and two males going into maturity, best to avoid problems for the future.


I will, and thanks everyone for the input! Really glad I found this place!


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Lol Neela doesnt want a bar of anyone


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## Oldskool Brent (Jul 1, 2009)

Come on people, I mean seriously. So many pit bull incidents are because people are putting them in bad situations.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Oldskool Brent said:


> Come on people, I mean seriously. So many pit bull incidents are because people are putting them in bad situations.


and when they become informed,the chances are dude will either not dog sit for his pal,or he'll be more diligent.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

Oldskool Brent said:


> Come on people, I mean seriously. So many pit bull incidents are because people are putting them in bad situations.


I hear what you're saying, but if you'll reread my posts you'll understand that it wasn't the APBT that did anything. It was MY dog, not a pit, that started it.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

william williamson said:


> and when they become informed,the chances are dude will either *not* dog sit for his pal,or he'll be more diligent.


I highlighted the key word in your post. I won't be doing this again for some time. Way too much stress on the family and my dogs.


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## PerfectPit (Aug 2, 2010)

Yes, I agree things can change in an instant. I have always had a multi dog home. My Mastiff lived with a Rottie and an Australian Shephard and things were very peaceful. When two passed away we got a APBT. The Mastiff and the APBT got along great for two months then one day when I was out in the yard with them, the Mastiff decided he no longer wanted the APBT around and charged across my huge yard and attacked the APBT before I could get to them. It took my husband and me both to separate them. Lots of blood shed, 12 staples and lots of vet visits. From then on we have had to crate in rotate. It has made for a peaceful life here. You can see at times the Mastiff plotting for an opportunity where we may let our guard down. They both get along well with the neighbors dogs.


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