# So whats up with the Auto title of AmBully to anything blue?



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Why is it that a dog being blue now makes it an American Bully by default? So a dog doesn't have to have papers of American Bully lines any more, it just has to be large a blue right? Thats what GoPitbull members has been promoting the last several months. Every blue dog here gets" Its probably an American Bully from 1 post of pictures.

So if people come on here with a fawn dog thats small we can start saying those are APBT then right??

Bloodlines make the breed. Not looks and not capabilities. Dog fighting at one point was the foundation of the APBT, however that is illegal and most of us care about keeping this breed around without being charged with dog fighting. Dogs that are not gamebred or fought can also be APBT..Many breeds of dogs were fought and game yet where not APBT so no fighting the dog doesn't make it a breed.. Debate that to your self all you want I will not argue it as thats your opinion you can have it all you want.

Amstaff lines make Amstaffs, APBT lines make APBTs, and American Bully lines make.....You guessed it AMERICAN BULLIES. Being overweight and blue doesn't make it an American Bully...


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

anything black has the possibility of throwing blue. thats why there are humans with blue eyes.

everything else you said is a huge can of worms so ill just leave what i said in my first sentence as that.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

zohawn said:


> anything black has the possibility of throwing blue. \


Agreed as that is a FACT. However a lot of people here I have seen throwing out he statement that a dog must be American Bully due to color and while that is very often true just because Bullies are commonly blue it doesn't mean all blue dogs are bullies.

I just think its bad education to be throwing out that a dog must be a certain breed by 1 post we see with no ped, yet if it is resembling an APBT and not an American Bully then its a debate on what the dog is...

You have to prove so much to come here and say you a have an APBT, but anything people want to label a bully papers or not gets that label. Which to me is as bad as every unpapered pit bull looking dog being called a pit.


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## TYSONnPRADA (Apr 27, 2012)

I feel that it is because the bully breed is way more common now days at least where i am i located, and every bully owner says they have a pit. Which they are not...thats why true apbt lovers put their guard up, just because there are so many false claims of owning a "pit bull" and they get tired of seeing these idiots with dogs that are clearly not the breed they claim. Thats way i feel you have to prove you have a true apbt. I may be wrong but thats my opinion.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Just as APBT owners don't like Bullies being called APBTs, why does anyone think that Bully owners like every large mutt called a Bully?

We all understand the Bullies are not APBT debate. Its everything else getting called Bully thats the problem now. There are just as many false claims of people owning or being told they own an "American Bully" when it is not one.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I see where ur coming from, and im not really sure what to say in regards towards ur observation. I have always been a supporter of "if u don't have papers, u don't know what u have". I've tried to use the term American Shelter Dog more often but people often look at me funny. To the mass public I have a "blue nose pit".... point blank.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

This drives me nuts too. Too many things are slapped "American Bully" if they don't have papers. If it's not papered don't label it anything than a mix or a generic encompassing term, or maaaaybe give it a type. Like "Bully breed" "Shepherd" "Hound" 

Another thing that drives me nuts is the APBT who act as though the American Bullies that look like APBTs are the "correct" dogs. The Ambully has it's own correct look, it's own standard... I could rant on and on about it.


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## TYSONnPRADA (Apr 27, 2012)

Exactly if u dont have papers its a dog.. I got papers on my apbt game dog and bully so i know what i have


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Celestial88 said:


> This drives me nuts too. Too many things are slapped "American Bully" if they don't have papers. If it's not papered don't label it anything than a mix or a generic encompassing term, or maaaaybe give it a type. Like "Bully breed" "Shepherd" "Hound"
> 
> Another thing that drives me nuts is the APBT who act as though the American Bullies that look like APBTs are the "correct" dogs. The Ambully has it's own correct look, it's own standard... I could rant on and on about it.


:thumbsup:100% as to what I am going on about lol.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Great post. There are people on here who think APBT cant be blue but there can be UKC apbt dogs that are blue. All comes down to the same thing when people post " what is my dog" you can not tell by looking at the dog in all cases you NEED to see the paper work. You can american bullys who fit more to the UKC standard then ABKC , so looks alone can be deceiving.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Looks can be deceiving and this is why I have a hard time calling my bitch an American Bully. If you judged by looking at her ped and saw the RE/Watchdog and then looked at her color she would automatically be labeled as such which she has on here. However being scatterbred it's obvious she isn't bully and no where near conforms to the looks of one. I went to an ABKC show a few months ago and Bella would have been laughed out the show ring LOL! I came across a dude that grew up around my way who had a few working APBT's doing WP demos and a couple whopper dogs and that's more what my Bella resembles. After reading and learning about the breed for the past two years and talking to people on here I think I have been able to form my own opinion of my dog and calling her an Am bully because she has some RE and watchdog isn't something I will do. Until ya'll see her in person and put your hands on her then you can't tell me what I have.....until then I will tell you and for now I'll just call her a bulldog


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

This is why i say American Bully mix or AST mix or Bulldog mix.. I don't believe i've ever stated "Its a Bully" based on color alone however i have said something along the lines of it if they state "RE" or "Gotti"..

There are NOT many "blue" Bulldogs/APBTs out there, never has been all the way to present day.. The color "blue" indicates something is or was more than likely crossed along the way, TYPICALLY Bully or AST..

The fact there are SO many American Bully breeders out there, legit OR BYB also raises the likely hood of a "blue" dog being at very least mixed with the breed.. After all, look at how many blue (known) Bullies there are out there.. That particular dilution in the gene pool is virtually found in EVERY AmBully PED within 4 generations... Of course, not all but i'd say at least 80%.. Just about all Bullies i've come across are also of the gene..

Bloodlines do not define the APBT rather function and ability.. Of course this debate is run in the ground anytime its brought up however it has ALWAYS been Bulldogs and Bandogs until otherwise proven in the [] as a pit dog aka Pit Bull Terrier aka APBT.

I have just kept my mouth shut mostly on all these "APBT" threads as none of which are proven thus most are Bulldogs of APBT blood.. Not a derogatory just stating the facts.

People are FAR too hung up on registries, what the PED is listed as and what they feel is right by name.. These Bulldogs/APBTs are not show dogs nor should be defined by registries.. If they work they work if they don't they don't.. Entire reason for the AST to separate function and exist as one is due to the need of having a performance or show Bulldog/APBT.. Take out the unneeded functions that are not required for that of showing and earning titles the way of the game.. Leaving the dividing line a fine one, black and white particularly in todays dogs.. Never been more so clearer.

UKC dogs are AMSTAFFS with MAYBE a few exceptions.. Anyone who thinks the dilute of black is common among Bulldogs OR APBTs shouldn't really be talking as they aren't aware of the genetics within the lines and history.. Can it happen? Sure, does it in frequent? No. Why do you think there was only a handful of "blue" game dogs? The color didn't just magically pop up and stay post 76'. Thats like the argument of Merle..

Appearance does not define a working breed, nor registry nor ped in both registered and written.. People get tired of hearing it because everyone says they understand it yet every time the topic gets brought up everyone argues it.

An American Bully that has no crossing in the generations that appears more "Bulldog/APBT" in appearance is just a genetic throw back of the Bulldog that was used in foundation... Unless crossed back over than theres your answer.

I can go on, the topic can go on and the "debate" can go on. If you understand it and understand exactly where im coming from great, stop debating it. If you don't or disagree great, that is your opinion and theres no reason to go further since it always ends the same.. 10 pages of the same old tune ending in the same way.. Everyone thinks they are right and no one wants to accept that the men who created knows far more than anyone, that there are STILL in every sense of APBTs being bred and proven both in this country AND out, there are STILL Bulldogs being used to function in legal aspect that are NOT that of registry oriented AKA show Bulldog AKA AST...

I've said it before, if proving Bulldogs/Bandogs were still legal in this country today virtually all these debates, topics etc. would fail to exist or carry weight.. It is ALL legal debates in essence.

As to the "blue" = American Bully, i agree it doesn't always add up to one tight knit package however it DOES mean the likely hood of Bulldog/APBT is virtually none.. Especially in the "what is my dog?" threads and such. Unknowns are unknowns, period.

All in all odds ARE heavily massed dog that appears to fit relatively within the American Bully standards as the American Bully is DEFINED by its purpose of SHOW standard and companion thus this and the dilution of black creates a likely hood of yes, potential American Bully mix or purebred.. Do we know without knowning whats genetically behind the dog? Of course not.. Persistent on a guess of answer, AmBully cross or Bulldog mix as a generic meaning.. Or MUTT...

I am sick of people defining work stock hounds as what bloodline or what registry says and the unwillingness to accept the term MUTT with unknowns.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I hear what you are saying and understand where you are coming from, but I agree, if I hear RE and pit bull and the dog is Blue, I say Bully, not APBT even if UKC registered, but I hear ya I know its "wrong" and understood that papers or known history is what is important. I think most people try to get that point across to people.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> I hear what you are saying and understand where you are coming from, but I agree, if I hear RE and pit bull and the dog is Blue, I say Bully, not APBT even if UKC registered, but I hear ya I know its "wrong" and understood that papers or known history is what is important.* I think most people try to get that point across to people*.


I honestly don't think i've seen much of this whole "large dog that is blue = Bully" from OP.. Then again, i usually stay out threads like that to begin with, too many of them and same old story..

If theres not function to work, don't reference to a breed that is designed for that function and yadda yadda yadda.. It has all been said before.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

You base much of your opinions on what WAS an APBT back in the day. In this day and age its a whole new ball game and the rules have changed. The large majority of people who own and represent this breed do not fight dogs nor hold any worth to it. They compete in legal sports and events to do what they can do LEGALLY with their dogs. Others just own and take good care of them. There are those that end up causing issues rather than helping but this forum alone if full of people who represent these dogs and maybe 1% have dogs you would call APBT.

Has it changed the dogs? Most definitely I do not agree that UKC APBTS and Game dogs are one in the same however they are all APBT. One has been taken in a different direction, but the breed as of any of todays standards are the same.

This will always be one persons opinion of what is and isn't no matter what. 

Many UKC and AKC dogs look to be classic bully or just plain Bully but are not. My thing is that people are automatically throwing the American Bully term out there and not even giving possible UKC dog or Amstaff or unknown... So then these new people think they have an American Bully when they do not lmao. 

Many of them do I agree, but its an assumption that I have seen placed on several new members dogs before they even find out if the dog has papers much less be a distinct breed of dog.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ames said:


> I hear what you are saying and understand where you are coming from, but I agree, if I hear RE and pit bull and the dog is Blue, I say Bully, not APBT even if UKC registered, but I hear ya I know its "wrong" and understood that papers or known history is what is important. I think most people try to get that point across to people.


Having papers is different. When its blue and they say RE and have no papers it not a bully its a mutt no different than the unpapered Colby dogs that have come through.


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## dday (Oct 5, 2010)

KMDogs; I agree with you for the most part. But whats funny to me is, back in the day if we used the word "Bulldog" in reference to someones apbt. It meant he was the real deal!
As in, "that dog is a real bulldog", or " he is all bulldog", or "that dog there is a bulldog". These where phrases of it's working ability. So what your saying is call it a bulldog if it is NOT a proven working dog. People that have been around awhile might be thrown off for a second by that, but OK. But why not just say "He/she is of the apbt breed" 
But I do agree on the "Mutt or Mongrel" for the unknowns.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

American_Pit13 said:


> Having papers is different. When its blue and they say RE and have no papers it not a bully its a mutt no different than the unpapered Colby dogs that have come through.


agreed, but if someone states that their dog is Colby or RE lines they MUST have papers or know the history because how else would they know they were RE or Colby? You have to assume people are telling the truth until they say some stupid comment which shows they are full of shit for you to call them out. I'm not one to call people out unless they give me a reason too.

I also have come to see how much its a matter of perspective, I mean the AmStaff is a breed. the APBT is a breed. Calling UKC dogs AmStaff because they were not bred for the [] doesn't seem correct if your perspective is they are 2 separate breeds. I have heard people state all show dogs are AmStaff no matter where they are registered ADBA included, that's such crap to me especially when trying to explain how important is it to call your dog what breed it is, then to have people come on with papers and know their history and be told cause they don't work or fight their dog its not a true APBT. Talk about confusing the new people! lol


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

dday said:


> KMDogs; I agree with you for the most part. But whats funny to me is, back in the day if we used the word "Bulldog" in reference to someones apbt. It meant he was the real deal!
> As in, "that dog is a real bulldog", or " he is all bulldog", or "that dog there is a bulldog". These where phrases of it's working ability. So what your saying is call it a bulldog if it is NOT a proven working dog. People that have been around awhile might be thrown off for a second by that, but OK. But why not just say "He/she is of the apbt breed"
> But I do agree on the "Mutt or Mongrel" for the unknowns.


Exactly. "Bulldog" is APBT...and this goes way back. Not trying to debate it, besides it's been debated before LOL! I suppose we all get "hung up" on various labels


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

dday said:


> KMDogs; I agree with you for the most part. But whats funny to me is, back in the day if we used the word "Bulldog" in reference to someones apbt. It meant he was the real deal!
> As in, "that dog is a real bulldog", or " he is all bulldog", or "that dog there is a bulldog". These where phrases of it's working ability. So what your saying is call it a bulldog if it is NOT a proven working dog. People that have been around awhile might be thrown off for a second by that, but OK. But why not just say "He/she is of the apbt breed"
> But I do agree on the "Mutt or Mongrel" for the unknowns.


Bulldogs are not proven box dogs, they are proven all around working animals with proven functions and abilities without game.. The APBT is the game Bulldog.. Earning the title after proving itself through matches..

All i have read going back to 1800s, the "old timers" that mentored myself through the years and own experiences would beg to differ that Bulldog equals game dog..

Bulldogs ARE working stock, yes. NOT box dogs, pit dogs, APBT what have you..

Bulldog can also be used as a generic term if you will for the modern ages.

While yes those phrases were used, notably Colby himself stated numerously..All Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven..Many others believed in this as well, pure, simple and direct.

I.E I would NOT take a AST out on a hog, coyote, deer, etc... A Bulldog OR Bandog bred firstly for, HIGH end Bulldog if you will.. Absolutely.. Game dogs.. APBTs.. Narrowed and perfected mentality for matching dog to dog.. No longer Bull Baitors, Bulldogs, Catch weight... The difference in mentality is quite clear.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> agreed, but if someone states that their dog is Colby or RE lines they MUST have papers or know the history because how else would they know they were RE or Colby? You have to assume people are telling the truth until they say some stupid comment which shows they are full of shit for you to call them out. I'm not one to call people out unless they give me a reason too.
> 
> I also have come to see how much its a matter of perspective, I mean the AmStaff is a breed. the APBT is a breed. Calling UKC dogs AmStaff because they were not bred for the [] doesn't seem correct if your perspective is they are 2 separate breeds. I have heard people state all show dogs are AmStaff no matter where they are registered ADBA included, that's such crap to me especially when trying to explain how important is it to call your dog what breed it is, then to have people come on with papers and know their history and be told cause they don't work or fight their dog its not a true APBT. Talk about confusing the new people! lol


Keep it simple.. AST is SHOW stock derived from performance Bulldog strain separated through FUNCTION...

This is why it is important than function and ability tops and over rules appearance, registry, etc.. Dogs can be mis-registered, happens often.. Registry says what the dogs structure, appearance, etc SHOULD be but look at what that has done to many over the years.. BT, EB, GSD, Presa, etc.. HUGE difference in health, stability, function, mentality, etc between working stock and show.. Down right depressing. Put all your cards in this and nothing separates the idea of "APBT" and AST except structure, frame and other minors.. Same mentality as old AST performance type strands..

The APBT IS what the name says.. The Bulldog IS a working animal which abilities and uses can exceed that of APBT.. Fundamental difference in names is gameness and ability to narrow that function down to not quit under some of the most extreme circumstances..

We can argue and debate morality, if it wasn't for the APBT the solid structure, agility and mentality wouldn't still exist in show stock and pet animals that are mixed or even bred down from these hounds.. Even through today, right or wrong legal or not they still exist without the masses knowing.. In many countries still legal and active in events.. Again, NOT a morality issue.. Strictly speaking functions..

Show stock ADBA "APBT" that is bred to title, perhaps WP and obed.. IS a performance AST.. You come to a point where nothing or VERY little separates between the two.. Why have two names for two "breeds" with SAME functions? It makes NO sense..


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

ames said:


> agreed, but if someone states that their dog is Colby or RE lines they MUST have papers or know the history because how else would they know they were RE or Colby? You have to assume people are telling the truth until they say some stupid comment which shows they are full of shit for you to call them out. I'm not one to call people out unless they give me a reason


I think she meant that Colby and RE get thrown out there a lot because they are two common or well known bloodlines. Someone with an unregistered dog might just toss a known bloodline out there because some people are idiots like that. It's kind of the same thing with red nose, blue nose, etc. they think that means something because they have heard it before but know absolutely nothing about what it means.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

ames said:


> agreed, but if someone states that their dog is Colby or RE lines they MUST have papers or know the history because how else would they know they were RE or Colby? You have to assume people are telling the truth until they say some stupid comment which shows they are full of shit for you to call them out. I'm not one to call people out unless they give me a reason too.


People often say their dog is a certain bloodline because some one told them so and often the dog has no papers so and so just said it looks like a RE dog. we have had this happen un countable times here on GP with Bully lines and Game lines where people say they have such and such, but don't.



ames said:


> I also have come to see how much its a matter of perspective, I mean the AmStaff is a breed. the APBT is a breed. Calling UKC dogs AmStaff because they were not bred for the [] doesn't seem correct if your perspective is they are 2 separate breeds. I have heard people state all show dogs are AmStaff no matter where they are registered ADBA included, that's such crap to me especially when trying to explain how important is it to call your dog what breed it is, then to have people come on with papers and know their history and be told cause they don't work or fight their dog its not a true APBT. Talk about confusing the new people! lol


AmStaff and APBT (UKC) sre different breed by registry and body type. They have been bred to be different dog as the UKC very much wanted to separate them from the ADBA style dog. While the UKC is getting much more different now as well from the ADBA type dog they originally still tried to maintain an athletic dog while the AmStaff was show only based.

I personally have no issues with UKC/AKC breeding and don't consider them mixed breeds. AmStaff were not crossed with other breeds of dog and unless another breed is mixed in I don't feel the breeds are any different. Breed for different purpose so you have a large variation in what each are like now but its all the same blood.

Just as your working bred Huskies, GSD's and almost any other working breed differ. They are taking in different direction but still remain the same purebred blood.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Carriana said:


> I think she meant that Colby and RE get thrown out there a lot because they are two common or well known bloodlines. Someone with an unregistered dog might just toss a known bloodline out there because some people are idiots like that. It's kind of the same thing with red nose, blue nose, etc. they think that means something because they have heard it before but know absolutely nothing about what it means.


:goodpost:

Exactly. I am not talking about when someone comes on with their "UKC APBT with RE lines" those dogs have lineage that shows what they are.
I am talking about people who join and go "hey look at my pit bull" and then people go oh no that's an American Bully. What? Why because its fat and blue?


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## dday (Oct 5, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> Bulldogs are not proven box dogs, they are proven all around working animals with proven functions and abilities without game.. The APBT is the game Bulldog.. Earning the title after proving itself through matches..
> 
> All i have read going back to 1800s, the "old timers" that mentored myself through the years and own experiences would beg to differ that Bulldog equals game dog..
> 
> ...


Technically I agree with you. All I was trying to say was, the people I talked with many years ago almost never used the phrase "American Pit Bull Terrier". We always just said bulldog, and if it was the "real McCoy", we would say "that dog is ALL bulldog!" Now maybe where you grew up you used the phrase APBT more than we did. 
But back on track, you are right, in a perfect world we should be able to classify the working stock from the pet/show stock more readily. And whether some on this forum want to believe it or not, "just like most modern day canines" the APBT for the most part will be, and in many cases already is, a shell of it's former self! The unshakable stable disposition, and the almost spooky courage will be replaced, with at times, an unstable temperament, and questionable courage. And you are correct, it will look like an APBT, it's papers will say it's an APBT, but it's heart will be an AST. Because that which separated the two breed will no longer exist.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

dday said:


> Technically I agree with you. All I was trying to say was, the people I talked with many years ago almost never used the phrase "American Pit Bull Terrier". We always just said bulldog, and if it was the "real McCoy", we would say "that dog is ALL bulldog!" Now maybe where you grew up you used the phrase APBT more than we did.
> But back on track, you are right, in a perfect world we should be able to classify the working stock from the pet/show stock more readily. And whether some on this forum want to believe it or not, "just like most modern day canines" the APBT for the most part will be, and in many cases already is, a shell of it's former self! The unshakable stable disposition, and the almost spooky courage will be replaced, with at times, an unstable temperament, and questionable courage. And you are correct, it will look like an APBT, it's papers will say it's an APBT, but it's heart will be an AST. Because that which separated the two breed will no longer exist.


:goodpost: Saying the same thing just slightly different lingo.. It may not be a perfect world however i refuse to "give in" to what i believe has always been correct as it has worked for far longer than the current mentality..


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> *This is why i say American Bully mix or AST mix or The color "blue" indicates something is or was more than likely crossed along the way, TYPICALLY Bully or AST..*


no it doesnt. black has the chance to throw blue in mammals. i have blue eyes. that doesnt mean i was mixed with anything other than human beings.


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## Jay724 (Jun 11, 2012)

Yeah I posted pictures of my pup. I have UKC papers saying he's APBT and people were saying he's AMBully because he's thick and blue.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

zohawn said:


> no it doesnt. black has the chance to throw blue in mammals. i have blue eyes. that doesnt mean i was mixed with anything other than human beings.


When was the last time you saw a "blue" Labrador? How about a "blue" GSD? Of course, we are not talking about other breeds however in order for a black dog to throw the dilute gene it must already be a carrier as it doesn't just appear within thin air.

There is a reason (well, multiple) that game dogs were not in this presentation, or Bulldogs, except on "rare" occasion.. Of course, the coat coloring was thought of to be that of a cur.. However, also because in the "rarity" of instances where the color was produced it was often culled. Thus, after time killing off the "hidden" (dd) gene almost entirely after selective breeding AWAY from this dilution except in the cases of AST or (pre) AST type Bulldogs.. This is the pool of which the American Bully was able to produce the genes and now of course is very much in the genetics that create the "breed"..

It is NOT impossible for a Bulldog to produce a "blue" pup from time to time, they are out there however theres a reason they are not in abundance that goes further than not just breeding for color.. As, after all, there are plenty of AST/"APBT" breeders out there that put less stock in function and more in standard of that registry deems as accurate.. Also, meaning, more thought goes into overall appearance. (firstly or secondary including color) The more you breed for conformation the more it falls into place... Or out of place, depending on the spectrum of which you are seeking.

People get hung up on "blacks can through blues" which isn't faulty by any means, however theres a little more to it than that.

Which, before anyone says "Blue has been seen in many breeds" yes that is true, however it isn't common unless bred into and i know several cases of which it was proven to be mixed by other breeds to create the color then bred back into original breed to create the genetics needed without the illusion of being mixed in past generations.. It is also different depending on the breeds, for instance a "blue" Labrador is actually just a VERY dark black that in the sunlight gives off an almost "blueish" tint.. But that is far more discussion than needed here and chances are very few give a  to begin with.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

KMdogs said:


> When was the last time you saw a "blue" Labrador? How about a "blue" GSD? .


Labradors do come in blue, the black has diluted to blue in the breed however only Black, Yellow and Chocolate are excepted so only byb are breeding the "rare" silver Labrador. I have seen them in person they are blue. Same goes for GSDs they can come in Black and Tan, Solid Black, Blue and Tan, Liver and Tan, Solid Blue, Solid Liver, Black Sable, Red Sable, Blue Sable, Liver Sable and several other colors. However do to selective breeding of color like with Labs they don't tend to.

With APBT breed for function over color you do not see blue as often until you get into the Amstaffs and UKC dogs aiming for color, but plain and simple ANYTHING black can throw blue eventually. Game bred APBTs are no different and I bet there are a lot more than game men wanted to admit to because as far as game doggers want to preach color doesn't matter when it comes to blue it matters. Having it set in the head that blues are curs they were culled and I am positive many at birth to deny the dogs having blue offspring or producing blue dogs.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Again, i'll leave the other breed conversation out of it to avoid getting too off topic.. Yes, you are right and i never said those breeds don't. However, i'll just leave that conversation at my other post. Which in my previous post already acknowledged by.. 
*"Which, before anyone says "Blue has been seen in many breeds" yes that is true, however it isn't common unless bred into and i know several cases of which it was proven to be mixed by other breeds to create the color then bred back into original breed to create the genetics needed without the illusion of being mixed in past generations.. It is also different depending on the breeds, for instance a "blue" Labrador is actually just a VERY dark black that in the sunlight gives off an almost "blueish" tint.. But that is far more discussion than needed here and chances are very few give a to begin with. "* Yes, there are "Blue" Labradors however i will also refer back to the first part of that paragraph.

"Anything black can throw blue eventually".. I'm not sure how many ways i can say what has already been said so..

This topic (among others) can be beaten to death immensely..

I will just leave it at this..

Your not going to see eye to eye with me nor me see eye to eye with you. Most people will agree with your way of thinking here, which is fine.. However i will continue to teach the only truth i feel is without a doubt accurate and that is truth from the men who created, perfected and instilled these hounds to what they were and are... That and my own findings, research and experiences.

Changing the mentality, function, ability.. You are not bettering, preserving or enhancing the breed you are changing the breed entirely. Why do you think show stock cannot perform to the degree of working stock? (with any breed where there is a clear divide) You may consider them one of the same under blood however i feel that is quite insulting. In the name of the Bulldog, the American Pit Bull Terrier... The glorious thing about this divide is it is as simple as it gets and the separation of function already has its own breed differentials..


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

dday said:


> KMDogs; I agree with you for the most part. But whats funny to me is, back in the day if we used the word "Bulldog" in reference to someones apbt. It meant he was the real deal!
> As in, "that dog is a real bulldog", or " he is all bulldog", or "that dog there is a bulldog". These where phrases of it's working ability. So what your saying is call it a bulldog if it is NOT a proven working dog. People that have been around awhile might be thrown off for a second by that, but OK. But why not just say "He/she is of the apbt breed"
> But I do agree on the "Mutt or Mongrel" for the unknowns.


True it is funny to me most of the bulldogers I talk to refer to a proven dog a real bulldog. I refer to it as GP talk i see most of the people that frequent this site like to pick up lingo and use at so.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Holly I understand your thoughts on this 100%. I also can say that 90+% of the time a blue colored dog has at least amstaff. But yes people who don't understand blood and line breeding won't understand when or how a dog went from Am staff to bully. i think there is even RE blood out their that is not bully still amstaff. Same with a select bit of Gotti blood. But people see these things and like to pretend they know what is what....


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Rudy4747 said:


> True it is funny to me most of the bulldogers I talk to refer to a proven dog a real bulldog. I refer to it as GP talk i see most of the people that frequent this site like to pick up lingo and use at so.


GP talk? That is by far one of the most ridiculous statements i've heard in quite a long time..

Why do you think Bulldogs had to earn the right to be called an American Pit Bull Terrier? For that matter, what do you even suppose the name suggests?

It does not suggest a pet quality dog nor a show ring glorified beauty queen. If anything, "GP talk" as a generalized statement differs very little to the media or "general public" outside the internet and else where.. At least in terms of referencing what is or isn't a APBT.

Grouping all that is of lesser quality and ability under the same ace is dumbfounding..


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Yeah look no need to feel upset. I can understand were you are coming from but many people out their refer to their APBT as bulldogs. I am not going to argue with you. I know you might get upset because a lot of people o this site think you are as knowledgeable as many real doggers. So i did not mean to offend you. But you don't know me or the people I know so please don't make the mistake of think that I do not know the difference in a real bulldog and a show dog. It all goes back to the OP people see the blue dog in my avatar and assume that am some Show dog mixed dog having know nothing. Drawing conclusions is what this post was about and that is exactly what people do. Especially those who think they know everything...


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Gp talk is what I refer to as things or terms I only hear or hear mostly used on this site, but rarely in the real word.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Rudy4747 said:


> Yeah look no need to feel upset. I can understand were you are coming from but many people out their refer to their APBT as bulldogs. I am not going to argue with you. I know you might get upset because a lot of people o this site think you are as knowledgeable as many real doggers. So i did not mean to offend you. But you don't know me or the people I know so please don't make the mistake of think that I do not know the difference in a real bulldog and a show dog. It all goes back to the OP people see the blue dog in my avatar and assume that am some Show dog mixed dog having know nothing. Drawing conclusions is what this post was about and that is exactly what people do. Especially those who think they know everything...


:rofl: Upset? The only thing "upsetting" is the lack of people understanding where they (the majority) are leading towards.. That and just plain "wrong" remarks.

I could give a damn what you think of me, or anyone for that matter. You might be under that illusion but "most people" on here probably see me as an ass and question who i am still as theres only a select few on here i've actually shared a wealth of knowledge in terms of my hounds, what i do with them and who i am extending past general responses..

Just thought i'd clear that up. I know enough about you through others, i don't know you personally nor have i had a hand on your dogs thus no reason for me to comment on either. I've seen enough of consistency and inconsistency to pass my own judgement based on similarities through others, whether that judgement is right or wrong i will probably never know as i will likely never meet you. Its irrelevant entirely.

But to think that you hurt somehow my internet ego, truly did give me a laugh.

People read into things what they want to read and ignore what is actually there. Never fails that if i insult what someone feeds in an indirect manor, OR just completely disagree someone, at some point will come along with some remark regarding me. Which is generally a sign of weakness any how as unable to have a conversation, let go what they think, etc without making a last ditch effort of feeling better about themselves knowing little as purposely providing little. Which, not to say you are doing this now.. But your last post is similar to...

For the rest of this particular thread, if i haven't said it here its been said at some point. :thumbsup:

Which if you think about it, you drew your own conclusions in your post about not drawing conclusions.. Ironically.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

To the OP Assumptions about what a dog is or isn't is what a lot of people who want to seem to know like to do for some reason. I have seen only one dog that was blue and not mixed with amstaf. So I can see where the thoughts come from. But it is wrong because as we all tell the knewbs you can not tell with out knowing the history of said dog.
I will PM my pesonal thought


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I've ignored this thread because it sounded like more of the same... ... Who decided what an American Pit Bull Terrier was? What dog is above all dogs both in fighting and anything else the other dog was bred to do? How did they get that dog? How did they keep it breeding true? ..........

There are plenty of REAL bulldog who honor the name American Pit Bull Terrier in tradition and doing it fine and legal in all parts of the world. ( How do you think dogs get 9 wins if fights are to the death?.. their like precision boxing athletes.. (boxer means fighter) ... So its naive to think that the act of the [] is gone. The supreme court just a year or so ago stated we could watch dog on hog and historical or foreign [] videos that it does infringe on the freedom of speech and information (library stuff) Libraries thats how you support your freedom of speech support your library. So if there are plenty of dog men outside the country proving our dogs from our strains in the USA and building there own to send younger generations back to keep the stock breeding true. The old timer Colbys both had foreign connoisseurs of the breed and the [].



American_Pit13 said:


> *Why is it that a dog being blue now makes it an American Bully by default? So a dog doesn't have to have papers of American Bully lines any more, it just has to be large a blue right? Thats what GoPitbull members has been promoting the last several months. Every blue dog here gets" Its probably an American Bully from 1 post of pictures.
> 
> So if people come on here with a fawn dog thats small we can start saying those are APBT then right??
> *
> ...



I don't know where this conversation went or what has been said; however this whole subject is heated which means emotional therefore irrational so thus irrelevant unless our irrational emotions kick into action and cause a ripple effect.

I told bella blue her dog was a bulldog (apbt type dog) and she should not look into breeding her to any bully type dogs but to look more at turpin or tnt..

which really.. really.. to be honest with ourselves they are that new fangled term "pitterstaffs" as are all bullies that don't have 20 generations behind them because I guarantee one shot from a game dog and you really know what genetic heritage is.

I've seen blue hog dogs that were dangerous in most yards cause they had power and speed and still fell cause they done that mess in a game yard and broke free to fall to a 44lbs plugger that just keeps goin. Also the blue dogs just couldn't keep up with the game dogs out in the field. I had blue boudreaux carver stuff that was just dead weight. Wasn't worth anything out in the field or on the farm or ranch in comparison to my JockoRedboy type dogs I had. 

I have bulldogs yes they're registered ADBA APBTs; however I breed traditional bulldogs aka long legged bulldogs aka dogs of prey and they are used and prove them selves as catch dogs and predator control which is the last place I need a cur. I have a mtn cur who like a alarm clock. .. cur and game where did those words originate? Either your breeding bulldogs or your not. IN my world I need the traditional bulldog the "nanny dog" of the 1900s.. and earlier.. my kids best friend and a near bullet racing catch machine on command  

Dont play the game with the humaniacs we all know the organizations. Stand fast by your constitutional and thus SOVEREIGN aka GUARANTEED rights. You can sue them just the same. Pollitics and paper do not decide working breeds .. work does. The Alaskan Husky (traditional sled dog) and the American Pit Bull Terrier (traditional bulldog) both need special homes with preservation and protection.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> *I told bella blue her dog was a bulldog (apbt type dog) and she should not look into breeding her to any bully type dogs but to look more at turpin or tnt.. *
> which really.. really.. to be honest with ourselves they are that new fangled term "pitterstaffs" as are all bullies that don't have 20 generations behind them because I guarantee one shot from a game dog and you really know what genetic heritage is


Which for all who don't know me it is my bitch he is speaking of. When I first came on here I put up her ped and it was "oh, you have an Am bully" because she has RE blood and is blue....I listened because I was learning and Bella was only a 4 month old pup when I joined. To me she didn't look bully enough to be Am bully THEN and now that she is almost two years old I can tell you an Am bully she isn't. I went to an ABKC event a couple months ago with Ames and I would have been laughed out the show ring. Some of them dogs were a mess to but that's besides the point. I will say however that I won't call her an APBT out of respect for the breed. But I will call her as FH does an APBT style dog or pitterstaff. Her body type to me fits more of the APBT standard then staff but you would have to see her in person to judge for yourself. She is a scatterbred bulldog and I will be the first to admit it but scatterbred doesn't always equal bad either.... I just know what I have. Anyways she is what she is and she is mine and for now she is my practice for when I get the real thing in the future. Oh, and FH I appreciate your honesty with me all along about my girl. You never steered me wrong :cheers:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> I've ignored this thread because it sounded like more of the same... ... Who decided what an American Pit Bull Terrier was? What dog is above all dogs both in fighting and anything else the other dog was bred to do? How did they get that dog? How did they keep it breeding true? ..........
> 
> There are plenty of REAL bulldog who honor the name American Pit Bull Terrier in tradition and doing it fine and legal in all parts of the world. ( How do you think dogs get 9 wins if fights are to the death?.. their like precision boxing athletes.. (boxer means fighter) ... So its naive to think that the act of the [] is gone. The supreme court just a year or so ago stated we could watch dog on hog and historical or foreign [] videos that it does infringe on the freedom of speech and information (library stuff) Libraries thats how you support your freedom of speech support your library. So if there are plenty of dog men outside the country proving our dogs from our strains in the USA and building there own to send younger generations back to keep the stock breeding true. The old timer Colbys both had foreign connoisseurs of the breed and the [].
> 
> ...


:goodpost: And this just sums up one of many points i've always made including here.. Of course, different messenger might equal "better results".. Is what it is :hammer:

In order to see the mentality difference of a Bulldog and a Game Dog aka proven Pit Bulldog I.E American Pit Bull Terrier in this case.. You have to of had your hands on both..

Just like we tell those that in order to understand what drive really is in a dog, you must experience it first hand. Of course, game can also be held in different context however entirely different topic all together.

Stan makes a more obvious point that perhaps i've not made entirely apparent. That, as long as the APBT exists in every sense of what the breed is. There IS and WILL be a mentality and function line between Bulldog and APBT.. Regardless of sharing the same bloodlines as blood doesn't define WORKING stock. :thumbsup:


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Which for all who don't know me it is my bitch he is speaking of. When I first came on here I put up her ped and it was "oh, you have an Am bully" because she has RE blood and is blue....I listened because I was learning and Bella was only a 4 month old pup when I joined. To me she didn't look bully enough to be Am bully THEN and now that she is almost two years old I can tell you an Am bully she isn't. I went to an ABKC event a couple months ago with Ames and I would have been laughed out the show ring. Some of them dogs were a mess to but that's besides the point. I will say however that I won't call her an APBT out of respect for the breed. But I will call her as FH does an APBT style dog or pitterstaff. Her body type to me fits more of the APBT standard then staff *but you would have to see her in person to judge for yourself.* She is a scatterbred bulldog and I will be the first to admit it but scatterbred doesn't always equal bad either.... I just know what I have. Anyways she is what she is and she is mine and for now she is my practice for when I get the real thing in the future. Oh, and FH I appreciate your honesty with me all along about my girl. You never steered me wrong :cheers:


:cheers: Exactly! In order to truly identify the breed is to put your hands on the dog! It's about time someone said it... I was waiting for it. *You have to lay hands on the dog in question!*


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

OH.. missed this part.. 

There is black without mutation.. which shimmers bluish or silver but only shimmers the hair itself has no mutation.. Slate or Slate Blue or Slate Black such as Colorados ImpII.. ALL OTHER BLACK has the red mutation and this is with humans as well. This is also the source of BLUE dogs as we know them today. Two different types of blue just like there are two different types of black and both have to do with the red mutation. Which came first the concentration of pigmentation or the red? The oldest african has the red genetic mutation the oldest Japanese and Chinese does not. ... Just like in humans dogs or anything else once the genetic manipulation or mutation is there it mutates and manipulates all genes after that.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Is the horse dead yet?


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Pretty much.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Saint Francis said:


> Is the horse dead yet?


It was dead before it even started.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

This thread was actually never about what an APBT is or isn't or what a bully is or isn't...

It was about telling new members there dog is something when no one has seen papers, or even knows if there are papers, based on color mainly. 

I don't believe this topic has ever been discussed, especially since it is about post that have happened over the last 2 months...


Its not a dead horse if people talk about the actual question and not turn it into a what is the APBT thread like the other 500 we have.


However like EVERY OTHER thread that is on this forum if you feel it is about nothing new then don't post in it.. No one is forcing you to respond to my question of what makes people know a dog is something by its color alone, yet if a fawn dog joined people would get bitched out for calling it an APBT. Anything oversized, blue, or looks like an APBT/Mastiff cross can get called American Bully when it is nothing more than a mutt.

If you don't want people Calling mixed bred dogs APBT then don't call other mixed bred dogs American Bullies.

There also seems to be some idea of me thinking all fighting dogs are gone.. not sure where that came from as I never said that. Fighting dogs is illegal.. IT IS. I don't care about japan and what they do over in other countries I am in over there. My dogs are not over there, and the majority of this forum are not over there. So what dog fighting in other countries has anything to do with what is going on with the breed in OUR area is beyond me.

I am done with this thread anyhow since only maybe 2 responses paid ANY attention to what I actually posted and the others are all just off in their own little world of what they want to go on about rather than what I actually said and the subject I was addressing..


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

That's why I said it was pretty much dead. When people get so lost in their own agenda that they aren't reading, comprehending or responding to actual posts in this thread, it becomes difficult to sustain. It was dead because people hate being pushed outside their comfort zone or to look at things from new angles. Not your fault, pretty typical reaction from what I have seen. We are all guilty of it from time to time, and the more we know or think we do, the less receptive we are.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I was tilling the ground, preppin' it for seeds of truth and fresh growth 

I hadn't read any of this even yet I just already knew it was gonna be like that. Answered it from the get go. Working dogs testing them to establish a working breed in which the American Pit Bull Terrier is, as Louis Colby, his uncle who wrote the 1936 book also said it as well as Heinzl and many other fathers of the breed. These dogs are of function and when bred by a show standard alone that opens the breed up for genetic destruction. It has happened to every "breed" .. Work keeps them pure because if they can't work they can't work for whatever reason physical or mental and thus the work and endurance of the work defines the working dogs. Why has every thing from the Tosa to the sled dog incorporated the game dog? .. you know why so don't change it; preserve it protect it. If its not your bag get over yourself and quit telling people who want to preserve the All Purpose All American Dog to get over themselves and to change to breed to a non working breed.

Blue dogs are APBT registered and can very well be great hog dogs and all that but almost all of them are curs and the best of the best get curred eventually. If blue dogs were the origin of any great strain of bulldog the dogs of the old timers would have all been blue. Blue just means diluted blood to most dogmen simple as that. Depends on the person and the dog. I would use alot of good blue dogs on hogs but almost all the good ones even get checked by a hog and then act like a dang cur on the in and out behavior, catch the pig; dog! .. I know there are great working dogs with the blue pigment and bellons crossed into southern kennels mayday stuff so its not far and you'll see another blue dog proven and then people taking those to their dogs and the blue frenzy starting all over ..

The point is the dog makes the dog and we do our homework to dog and pedigree and pay attention to detail and hope we pick from a dog that breeds true and we've picked a dog that will continue to breed true. Blue don't breed true [upstairs] If it pops up on a good worker great use it but don't breed for it. JMO but its prone to the same BS as merle dogs. Theres something up with that marker and how it plays out. I don't want it in my stock but I don't knock a good to great working blue bulldog. That doesn't mean its a REAL American Pit Bull Terrier because then you have to put the whopper slobber in that group as real American Pit Bull Terriers. Its important not kid yourselves, ourselves, or anyone else. ... for instance what are you all doing the best with in the ADBA shows? The real bulldog strains or the dilluted stuff?.. Cause work provides the conformation it just comes as part of the package..

I see some flowers starting to grow;..

.....................................................must be lotus blossoms from the grimy muck they sprout from..........................................................


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Flower power baby!! Also, Happy B Day to my pup Rooster, although he's a little under the weather with a mysterious throat situation...but we're pushing on!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

When discussing the color "blue" not being AmBully, AST, Pitterstaff or what have you.. It leaves open the possibility of discussing it in terms of stock Bulldog or APBT which then turns into the conversation we've had on this thread and countless others. So yes, it is a beaten to death topic even though beaten theres no reason someone can't attempt to have truth be said..

Anytime discussing old vs new people always deem either as opinion but yet "not taken to new ways" or the like is dismissing old facts that have been carried forth for well over a hundred years as opinion where as your own, "newer" views as facts.

And to be fair, you are correct i don't want random breeds to be called APBTs.. Nor do i want unproven hounds to be called APBTs, nor do i want show stock to be called APBTs, nor do i want ASTs to be called.. Hell i can go on.

Call it what it is, a spade a spade and that deck has been defined among their functions since day one. Even in larger organizations such as AKC, still divided among functions.. Even though 99% of those dogs are stock useless in respected abilities outside of the show ring and being pets.

Herders herd, retrievers retrieve, etc..


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

You know I do understand where Holly is coming from. I have said 100s of times on this forum. People make to many assumptions about thing they dont know about. you can not look at a pic and k.ow how a dog us bred, or what it can do? And that is what yhis thread is about people pretending to know what they have no idea about. It can be said one more time if you have not seem that dog with your own eyes then really you have no true idea what it is about.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> This thread was actually never about what an APBT is or isn't or what a bully is or isn't...
> 
> It was about telling new members there dog is something when no one has seen papers, or even knows if there are papers, based on color mainly.
> 
> ...


i agree. i lol when i read this forum, a lot.


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