# Your shelter dog: Reasons to not call them APBTs or "Pit Bulls"



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

So with the over whelming of new comers here, each and every day telling us about their shelter "Pit Bull" i thought it would be wise to list reasons, as clear as possible, for those to better understand why they may be doing more harm than good.. As well knocking some sense into the world..

Reasons to not involve your newly adopted puppy in the same boat as American Pit Bull Terriers:

- A shelter dog is just that, a shelter dog. While this act is noble and surely applaudable, often shelters, rescues and pounds will list these dogs as a best guess and move on. Majority of these dogs do not have a PED nor did they come from a reputable breeder therefore it is impossible to know what you are actually feeding.

- The APBT is a world class working hound. The standard that has always been (not referring to what a group of people representing a registry says they should be) is that of a high drive, eager to please and willingness to not quit at performing the work load given.. Now pit fighting, the [] or however you would like to call it is illegal in the US and in many countries around the world so i am not suggesting to anyone that the work must be historically accurate however breeding practices that have stayed true for over a century matters and ultimately this and the [] past has not only created excellent working hounds but has created both the working traits AND family friendly breed we have today..

- Virtually all hounds with drive are PTS in shelters.. The general public no longer understands a dog with a purpose instilled in the genes.. Its all about fad, status, etc. With this said, the likely hood of you adopting an APBT from a shelter (HSUS, for instance) is highly, highly unlikely.

- Even adopted "Pit Bulls" that was surrendered with a PED, registered as an APBT does not automatically equal reality. In fact, most if not near all above standard breeders will take their hounds back if at any reason the new handlers cannot handle, cannot afford or any reason you can think of.. If they cannot care for the dog the breeder will generally take the dog back and either re home or keep on their yard.. Because of this, typically BYB's are the only ones where their dogs end up at the shelters because its all profit for them.. They don't care about the dogs nor are they breeding to benefit, preserve or advance the breed of choice. Therefore, the PED that may have come along with your newly adopted pet could be fake, forged, hung, etc. Also, breeds such as the American Bully are often registered as an APBT due to lack of knowledge, registry greed and for it sells. This can further add to the confusion however i will keep it simple for now and leave it at that.

- Avoid political crossfire.. With BSL on the rise as well as other negative impacts on the breed.. Why risk your adopted dog? Why risk having to follow even more useless government laws that make no difference? You can save yourself a whole world of hurt and headache by just referring to your adopted dog as a mutt or shelter dog. Mutt does not mean anything other than you have no idea what may be in your dog.. Which is true! You can not prove your dog is any one breed.. Especially when we are talking about working breeds such as the APBT where appearance is not a defining trait.. rather.. drive, proper structure to perform, temperament, etc.. They have to work.

- The term "Pit Bull" is not a breed within itself but rather a general title given to all those dogs that fit within what the media claims is a "Pit Bull".. This can be the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Bully, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, Ole Bulldog, American Bulldog, Bandogs or even shelter dogs such as what you may have.. By grouping your dog within the APBT is far from accurate.. With these different purebred dogs, while you can trace them back in history as one of the same are in todays world bred for very, very different traits and overall function.. Because of this it is unfair to group these dogs as one.. Would you group all Terriers under one name? All retrievers? The temperament, function, structure, etc is different for each individual breed.. You have to remember at one point in time all dog breeds were designed to for fill a purpose.. They were bred for function and it has only been the last century or so that we, humans have bred away from function and have bred more and more pet - like features.. Because of this (and many other factors such as changing registry standards of dogs) we have created genetic disasters and have killed the function and practicality out of many dog breeds.. For instance, if you look at the English Bulldog of late 1800s and look at the EB today.. Hardly recognizable..

- These shelters do not temperament test in the way most would like to believe.. Because of this, many shelter dogs or poorly bred BYB's can turn out to have traits that the said breed(s) should not possess.. Meaning, if you continue to call your "Pit Bull" a "Pit Bull".. As that "Pit Bull" matures lets say they turn out HA (human aggressive) and bite someone.. Cause any damage its not just a dog and an accident.. Its a breed issue and all "Pit Bulls" should be banned.. This greatly affects the APBT however as already mentioned.. The spot light gets carried through on all breeds lumped and dubbed as the "Pit Bull" breed even though theres no such thing..

You chose to adopt for your own reasons, which is great however you must keep in mind the knowns and unknowns and divide them as such.. If you wanted to know exactly what went into your dog you shouldn't have adopted.. If you wanted a hound with function and ability, you may have lucked out to a degree with your adoption however going through a reputable breeder will far, far better your chances of a worker.. Near 100% as nothing is 100% in life.. You adopted a great family pet, nothing more and nothing less..


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

as former isolation technician at the spca.... :goodpost: DAM MOAT!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Bangin post, KM!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeh .. him and Mach0 are battling it out for the Doody Award ~


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Km your going to break a lot of hearts with this post. I love my mutt's!


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Really good post. The political crossfire paragraph alone should be reason enough really.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Great post KM


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Yeh .. him and Mach0 are battling it out for the Doody Award ~


Haha no battle here, id say with those with proper experience and knowledge are fairly equal in our strengths.. Different hounds, different languages of explaining but at the end of the day..

Thanks everyone, feel free to sticky if you feel its worth keeping around for the new comers.. I think it was long overdue for this type of thread to exist, in all those threads pertaining to the topic.. it helps combining it all into one for reference.. Only so many ways we can explain it to people without it being a broken record daily.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Km your going to break a lot of hearts with this post. I love my mutt's!


ahahah broken hearts can get over it, i dont care what people think they have or determined to believe.. If you dont know the genetic make up and history of your hound (ie PED) you don't know anything.. Could be anything.

Everyone thinks they want an APBT until they attempt to handle one.. For many as soon as they lay eyes on one and watch them in action, its enough to deter since what people have in their minds and reality are often separated by the huge gap.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

we should also have a post that explains other things like genetics, im always hearing " its how you raise them" a real apbt will never be HA regardless of being a pet or a fighter...we have the old school-fighters to thank for that.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

zohawn said:


> we should also have a post that explains other things like genetics, im always hearing " its how you raise them" a real apbt will never be HA regardless of being a pet or a fighter...we have the old school-fighters to thank for that.


When i get the time i could post up a thread about the genetics in depth of coloring, DA, etc.. Though the problem is even put in the simplest of terms it can be hard to follow for those that don't understand what they are looking at or have much prior knowledge of reading the language..

I'm also not entirely sure it would really be beneficial since im not sure there are that many people interested in learning about it here. Could be wrong though would be worth at least having it there.. I know if one was made Stan can chime in as well as he knows a great deal on the subject with hands on results.


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## PerfectPit (Aug 2, 2010)

Great post.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

KMdogs said:


> - The term "Pit Bull" is not a breed within itself but rather a general title given to all those dogs that fit within what the media claims is a "Pit Bull"..
> very true KM, but it only matters what the authorities concider your dog to be. there is not many bans on the apbt, only pitbulls.
> - These shelters do not temperament test in the way most would like to believe.. Because of this, many shelter dogs or poorly bred BYB's can turn out to have traits.........
> if I pull a dog from a shelter, I spend 4 months in my home, work, fishing, church,whatever. I push my fosters to the limit and if thet dont meet my expectations then I make the appt to pts. I refuse to believe that a shelter dog labled as a pitbull mix should ever be considered anything else than what it "looks like" because thats setting up for denying bsl wont kill your dog.
> ...


Excellent post by the way....


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

We've had several great genetic posts from pertaining to which came first red or black.. because the early dogs are brick red and the hair turns out to be red half way and black tipped.. black is a form of red .. red is a form of black .. dilute dilute.. 

The squares tell it best... the ones drawn with crayon... Then disect the questions as they fall .. But there are several threads on genetics already..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

redog said:


> KMdogs said:
> 
> 
> > if I pull a dog from a shelter, I spend 4 months in my home, work, fishing, church,whatever. I push my fosters to the limit and if thet dont meet my expectations then I make the appt to pts. I refuse to believe that a shelter dog labled as a putbull should ever be considered anything else than what it "looks like" because thats setting up for denying bsl wont kill your dog.
> ...


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Coming from SPCA end of it, they're all lumped together more so by OWNER and not the dog... If someone has staffys that are pure in blood back to colby and small and they are in troulbe on the TV for raising pit dogs then THEY WILL BE POSTED as PIT BULLS.. OKAY granted..

THE PROBLEM is labeling Pit Bull in general.. I have come to some hayday arguments with co workers would wanted to label puppies or dogs as begal mixes or boxer/lab mixes when clearly they were APBTs. They would say this is not a Pit Bull .. I would say your right its an American Pit Bull Terrier or I would use Am Staff too depending if the dog was more one way than the other... These people cant take it .. the idea that the best dogs in the world are the "pit" bulldog and terriers. These ladies would want to label dogs as this or that.. AFTER I had already labled their breed.. ISOLATION TECHNICIAN.. halfway house for pound dogs going over into adoption at the SPCA, also aggressive animals and euthanasia... who do you think answered their questions about everything else except what they didnt want to know. They were adopting an APBT or mix as a beagle mix.. or lab mix.. when I would lay it all out for them genetic wise ..  really hit the fan and they turned into a personal attack style argument no longer about the dog. .. because its not.. its about PANDERING LIL TUSHIES SO PEOPLE CAN FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEIR OWN IGNORANCE... 
such as: IGNORING OUR HISTORY as a country let alone how a DOG is tied to the COUNTRY itself. 


pit bull is a slang term.. that replaced bulldog and bandog .. probably media driven in creation. As they were all bulldogs or bandogs until proven then they were American Pit Bull Terriers .. before UKC they were pit bulldogs/bullterriers both inter-twinning together as they are one. Thus the SPCA founder really slung mud at the PIT BULL name .. He had a vendetta against the MEN not the breed. ITS ALL ABOUT FREEDOM.. REALLY it is.

Regulation, Control, Mediation, Litagtation, Designation, then Appropriation... 
to many of us we can simply say: (mind :curse: ed)

People who know the breed and the strains of the dogs, already use bulldog, bandog, terrier, hound( even though HOUND MEANS DOG most assume it means tracker, hounds were inbred from pit dogs too! follow the works) so for workers and dog men and women they know.. ITS THE MASSES that educate themselves through the propaganda spread by media and LAW ENFORCEMENT: to protect and serve... ORDER.. is what they leave off the car. 

So what part of any that has to do with freedom? just the good ol boys breedin and raisin their hunting and ranch dogs to be able to go through hell and back and enjoy every minute of it... Thats all the freedom I see in all of this milarky that is just propaganda and red tape to change how people think and feel.. Manipulation to get people to litterally say: "here take my rights and give men what you think I should have"

ignorance... which is our freedom to be its also our downfall 

In THIS country the PEOPLE are the authority and we have forgotten that... 

its about regulating liberty and enforcing priviledges and forgetting about guarantees.... 
Bill of Rights ^^^^^^^ ring a bell?


You cannot regulate and enforce liberty, rights and guarantees behind a government body its always been and always will be up to the people.

it starts with lil things here and there far and wide.. LIKE bulldog ... terrier .. Pit Bulldog .. Pit Bullterrier .. Pit Terrier .. Game Bull Terrier and all of em the same dang bulldog but not by the minds and heart of the masses cause so much has been put in place to hide Americas Pit Bulldog and replace it with the brachyphilac english bulldog. 
Aggies, Bulldogs, and what not such as Georgetown and Gonzaga actually have their mascot based on a APBT of the turn of the century.. a pit dog.. but no lets HIDE all of that.. SO people can lie to themselves and no matter WHAT.. Its ALWAYS someone elses fault..

.. :flush: 


better stop there... before it starts................ small lil things add up to a big belief....


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

I know you both understand how I feel but not so how i think...at least I think I can learn!!!Stan ive been there done that, learned it and lived it too! It left me scarred. but instead of laying down with the bleeding hearts, i hang with you guys. I agree with most of what your sayin and what i dont at least i understand it and can relate. whats important is that im being schooled! lol. truth, fantasy or media hype whatever, we are few they are many. how can the misconception be changed without education like this? At this point I think the pitbull problem is way too big.
Stan you touched on mislabeling dogs in a shelter? it is a sin in itself but 
we should save that for a different thread!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Your right dave, I just feel through time that the SPCA was the sole organization in the beginning to slander the breed... I also feel a lot of peoplese misconceptions of a pit bull rest with what theyve been told by such said places.. . I totally get what your saying.. It is another trhead in itself.. ..


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## Chloesmygirl (Jan 31, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> - The term "Pit Bull" is not a breed within itself but rather a general title given to all those dogs that fit within what the media claims is a "Pit Bull"..
> very true KM, but it only matters what the authorities concider your dog to be. there is not many bans on the apbt, only pitbulls.
> - These shelters do not temperament test in the way most would like to believe.. Because of this, many shelter dogs or poorly bred BYB's can turn out to have traits.........
> if I pull a dog from a shelter, I spend 4 months in my home, work, fishing, church,whatever. I push my fosters to the limit and if thet dont meet my expectations then I make the appt to pts. I refuse to believe that a shelter dog labled as a pitbull mix should ever be considered anything else than what it "looks like" because thats setting up for denying bsl wont kill your dog.
> ...


I refer to my shelter dog as a pit bull mix, and I am using the term "pit bull" in a generic way. She was listed as a pit bull in the shelter and that was only a guess going by her looks. And, yes, I understand there is no such breed as "pit bull", but it is used as an umbrella term for many of the bully breed types.

When I fill out the paper work for my dogs immunizations, they REQUIRE you to list a breed, they do not accept "MIX" or "mutt" on the form. Therefore somebody has to make a "guess" as to the dog's breed.

My dogs are all mutts, but I can tell you that if BSL came into my area, they would be labeled as "pit bull mixes" at the very least, and mixes are usually always included in BSL. I can't hide the way they look.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

This is a good convo going on,really making me think.I can see good points from all sides.:cheers:


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> So what part of any that has to do with freedom? just the good ol boys breedin and raisin their hunting and ranch dogs to be able to go through hell and back and enjoy every minute of it... Thats all the freedom I see in all of this milarky that is just propaganda and red tape to change how people think and feel.. Manipulation to get people to litterally say: "here take my rights and give men what you think I should have"
> 
> ignorance... which is our freedom to be its also our downfall
> 
> ...


 are yall reading this?? you all need to be paying attention to these words! Its the part about the reason we founded this country slipping away to gov't control. "We the people" and youll better understand those words if you read more of this!!:goodpost::goodpost:



Chloesmygirl said:


> redog said:
> 
> 
> > I refer to my shelter dog as a pit bull mix, and I am using the term "pit bull" in a generic way. She was listed as a pit bull in the shelter and that was only a guess going by her looks. And, yes, I understand there is no such breed as "pit bull", but it is used as an umbrella term for many of the bully breed types.
> ...


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

:goodpost: I agree!Stan for president!!I'd vote for ya Stan


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## Chloesmygirl (Jan 31, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> are yall reading this?? you all need to be paying attention to these words! Its the part about the reason we founded this country slipping away to gov't control. "We the people" and youll better understand those words if you read more of this!!:goodpost::goodpost:
> 
> Stafford terrier or Staffordshire terrier would work for you at the vet (at least for the dog in your avatar) and you avoid the "pitbull" word all together.


 Do you mean AST or Staffordshire Bull Terrier? Which I believe both would still be targeted by BSL. Last time I vaccinated my dog in avatar I did fill out AST mix, but I'm not sure how much that would really help. I also have 3 other mixes which have what could be construed as "pit bull" type characteristics. I tell the general public that I have mutts but they are going to believe what they want.

HeavyJeep, do you really live in Paradise?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I'd be the youngest president ever elected.... :rofl: Shoot, just put me on the ticket with Ron Paul and watch us clean this mess up............................................ Money backed by gold, is a biggie.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

money backed, outsourcing heavily taxed, immigrants treated like people and put on the right track, bush tax cuts nixed-problems solved


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Stan definitely always has excellent posts and insight.. But lets try to keep this on the subject so new comers don't get distracted by all the politics  We can make a new thread for that.. Better yet lets get Ron Paul in and complete overhaul on the senate/congress..


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Gosh. You guys are on, like, the total opposite spectrum politically from me, half the time I don't even know what you guys are talking about, LOL. But it makes for some good reading.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

k8nkane said:


> Gosh. You guys are on, like, the total opposite spectrum politically from me, half the time I don't even know what you guys are talking about, LOL. But it makes for some good reading.


here here, lol

But its not realistic to think that your dog, that is a pit bull type dog, would be considered a mutt. You can tell people til you are blue in the face that my dog is not an american pit bull terrier, I have an American Staffodshire terrier and they reply, "yeah a pit bull" 9 times out of 10. The one person I try and educate might end up listening. But to act like pit bulls, the generic term, isn't target by BSL just because you don't have a paper to prove its not an APBT, is ridiculous. Its how the dog looks to the public, not if the dog has the papers. And some places even target by saying any stocky body, shortish muzzle with a blocky head. I mean there are not just pit bulls with stocky bodies and block heads, it doesn't matter. If it looks like a pit bull it will be labeled the generic term pit bull by all agency's. It doesn't matter what you or I or the shelter labels them as, its how they look to the public and the animal control officer knocking on your door. Its how the bulding management thinks about what your dog looks like that matters. You can call it what you want, but the generic term pit bull should be perfectly acceptable. People should not have to cower and lie about what they might have, be real about it and deal with the haters and not try and deceive people who for 1 don't even know there are multiple breeds making up the term, and for 2 don't care cause it looks like a pit bull to them.

Some have said to call your non papered pit bull type dog a bull dog. I think many people get confused with that since that is in itself, its own breed. The pit bull is a generic term, why people who have APBT get upset by others that call their unknown mix a pit bull (a generic term) confuses me. They should be proud to own a APBT (which also happens to be considered a part of the many breeds commonly referred to as the generic term pit bull) instead of nit picking the generic term that is recognized by society to identify. When the news makes a report about a pit bull, they are not reporting it as an APBT, they are correctly using the generic term, pit bull which APBT actually ARE.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

^ That is why i believe that rather than giving in to what the public "thinks" is correct, we as handlers need to push back with nothing but truth.. To give in is to lose the "fight" in ability to own these fine hounds.. Any other breed a "specialist" will tell you theres no way of knowing what your shelter dog is or isn't.. When it comes to anything that appears to be a "pit bull" though its without a doubt a "pit bull" no questions asked from these so called "experts" on the television.

Its not about denying BSL its about putting the truth first and foremost and those that have sense and experience should be the only ones doing so.. Not the fur mommy and daddy and surely not politicians or media outlets that have no experience with these hounds.

Why give in to what others perceive as correct? In my opinion it makes zero sense and counter productive with what we are wanting achieved in this country..


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> ^ That is why i believe that rather than giving in to what the public "thinks" is correct, we as handlers need to push back with nothing but truth.. To give in is to lose the "fight" in ability to own these fine hounds.. Any other breed a "specialist" will tell you theres no way of knowing what your shelter dog is or isn't.. When it comes to anything that appears to be a "pit bull" though its without a doubt a "pit bull" no questions asked from these so called "experts" on the television.
> 
> Its not about denying BSL its about putting the truth first and foremost and those that have sense and experience should be the only ones doing so.. Not the fur mommy and daddy and surely not politicians or media outlets that have no experience with these hounds.
> 
> Why give in to what others perceive as correct? In my opinion it makes zero sense and counter productive with what we are wanting achieved in this country..


but the problem is, it IS correct to refer to your dog as a pit bull since pit bull is a generic term, not a breed in itself. Its one thing to call your dog an APBT when you have no clue about heritage. its another to call it a pit bull, which is admittedly not a breed. Its not about giving in to others, sorry I was not meaning that, what I mean was call a spade a spade. If your dog is mixed with a pit bull type dog, its a pit bull no matter how much you would like people to call it a mutt, only the educated of the breed know the difference between the breeds that are lumped as pit bulls. Its one thing for someone to say they have an APBT without papers and another to call their dog a pit bull.

Also, there are many reputable breeders who have legit papers who have dogs under contract to come back to them if there is ever an issue and people don't care and still drop their papered pup at a shelter out of embarrassment or whatnot of going back to the breeder. Its not just BYB with hung papers at shelters. you can get really good dogs with legit papers at shelters, its all in how long you want to wait and how often you are looking.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> but the problem is, it IS correct to refer to your dog as a pit bull since pit bull is a generic term, not a breed in itself. Its one thing to call your dog an APBT when you have no clue about heritage. its another to call it a pit bull, which is admittedly not a breed. Its not about giving in to others, sorry I was not meaning that, what I mean was call a spade a spade. If your dog is mixed with a pit bull type dog, its a pit bull no matter how much you would like people to call it a mutt, only the educated of the breed know the difference between the breeds that are lumped as pit bulls. Its one thing for someone to say they have an APBT without papers and another to call their dog a pit bull.
> 
> Also, there are many reputable breeders who have legit papers who have dogs under contract to come back to them if there is ever an issue and people don't care and still drop their papered pup at a shelter out of embarrassment or whatnot of going back to the breeder. Its not just BYB with hung papers at shelters. you can get really good dogs with legit papers at shelters, its all in how long you want to wait and how often you are looking.


I disagree, the term pit bull used to be slang or shortened term referring to the APBT.. Up until recent history it has been used to group together the breeds we know are under the radar and treated as one. In my opinion theres nothing correct about grouping together a show hound and a working hound no matter what history they may share together, opposite ends of the spectrum on purpose and should be treated as such.

This is like saying you rescue a golden retriever mix (lets just say mixed with potential boxer just for the sake of example) but calling the mix a retriever.. When genetically theres only a % of that dog that is golden and genetically, may not swing that way in any form other than potentially appearance.. Maybe you see it differently than i do but i don't believe its fair to group any mix/unknown in the same crowd as purposely bred hounds.. Much less group all "retrievers", all "pit dogs", all "mastiffs" as one as there are differences among individual breeds that should be noted and not put together as one.. Even more so when we are talking about a wide spread ban...

Its not like we are talking about "sporting group", "working group", "show group" as a means of grouping all sporting/etc under similar purposes and functions.. We are talking about putting a little here little there all into one and we all know thats wrong.. Yet people accept it because its what they have adopted from media.

If you want to call a spade a spade, shelter mixes ARE mutts, mixes, crosses however you want to label them. They are not in no way, shape or form purebred.. A dog with no actual known knowledge of how they were bred than it should be treated as such as you can't prove anything based on appearance.. Mixes can take on shapes, sizes and structure including that of their purebred relatives..

Thats how i view things anyway.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

You're right, KM.

The problem is that the majority of people are WRONG and base these dogs off looks. It's not about bowing down and accepting their wrong viewpoints. It's about being realistic to the crap and knowing that your pit bull-looking dog is a pit bull is a pit bull is a pit bull to them, whether they actually are or not.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I see what u mean km just don't think the impression that might be left when calling a non papered pit bill a mutt in the eyes of who sees the dog for what it could be. Most people could care less about percentages of mix and most vets require the dominate mix to be noted. I hear what you are saying and would love to agree but don't find it realistic in society. Also never knew put was slang for apbt, makes sense but its not considered that anymore. I see your point and agree more damage is being done by the lack of knowledge on how many know what an am staff is vs am bully vs apbt. But I think trying to pretend your dog isn't perceived as one based on just looks is not realistic. I think the community needs to accept the generic term and move on to educate on an individual bases. 

Kinda what Kane said, the owner looks like a liar even if they know the truth and the dog is not a apbt. Having people think you are a liar is just as damaging to a reputation as calling mixed dogs pit bulls is to true APBT owners. But why not embrace the generic term and get people to understand it instead of trying to change the minds of a few decades of influence. 

Having said that some people who own these pit bulls the media tries to destroy are responsible and having them be called pit can work on your side and could be a good thing. I know my well behaved AmStaff, commonly referred to as a the generic term pit bull is a great example of representing with positivity.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> I see what u mean km just don't think the impression that might be left when calling a non papered pit bill a mutt in the eyes of who sees the dog for what it could be. Most people could care less about percentages of mix and most vets require the dominate mix to be noted. I hear what you are saying and would love to agree but don't find it realistic in society. Also never knew put was slang for apbt, makes sense but its not considered that anymore. I see your point and agree more damage is being done by the lack of knowledge on how many know what an am staff is vs am bully vs apbt. But I think trying to pretend your dog isn't perceived as one based on just looks is not realistic. I think the community needs to accept the generic term and move on to educate on an individual bases.
> 
> Kinda what Kane said, the owner looks like a liar even if they know the truth and the dog is not a apbt. Having people think you are a liar is just as damaging to a reputation as calling mixed dogs pit bulls is to true APBT owners. But why not embrace the generic term and get people to understand it instead of trying to change the minds of a few decades of influence.
> 
> Having said that some people who own these pit bulls the media tries to destroy are responsible and having them be called pit can work on your side and could be a good thing. I know my well behaved AmStaff, commonly referred to as a the generic term pit bull is a great example of representing with positivity.


:goodpost: though i will say although it may not be realistic per se in the current state of times, continuously pushing knowledge and cold truths is what can prevail if we so chose for it.. I refuse to give in with what society THINKS they know about these hounds or anything in general thats nonsense but for this, for the APBT, we need to push the issue as times have in fact changed.. These hounds are no longer for the private yards and dog men/women.. Look at the damage since 76' and its evident.. However we can still adopt the old views very much into the new worlds way of thinking.. If not status quo will just continue to press forward.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> :goodpost: though i will say although it may not be realistic per se in the current state of times, continuously pushing knowledge and cold truths is what can prevail if we so chose for it.. I refuse to give in with what society THINKS they know about these hounds or anything in general thats nonsense but for this, for the APBT, we need to push the issue as times have in fact changed.. These hounds are no longer for the private yards and dog men/women.. Look at the damage since 76' and its evident.. However we can still adopt the old views very much into the new worlds way of thinking.. If not status quo will just continue to press forward.


amen, i love you km


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

yup yup... all good stuff............


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## HappyPuppy (Oct 11, 2007)

I have tried calling my girl a mutt - but then I get corrected by people who see the apparent "pit bull" in her. Others ask me if she is 'full pit'... to which I honestly say no. I always say "I believe she is half" but that she is a shelter mutt so who knows for sure. (she was labeled as 'pit bull' in the shelter) However, if she were involved in any incident, there is no doubt in my mind she would be labeled as a 'pit bull' or 'pit bull mix' so I'm not going to simply say she is a 'mutt' when no one would agree (except, respectfully, KM). I also don't believe in reinforcing the media's 'pit bull' title by giving it credibility and not correcting it at every opportunity - an APBT is an APBT no doubt about it. A mastiff mix is not a 'pit bull', for a random example, and should not be called as such in a news story. I, however, do support the thought that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, that it probably has got duck in it.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

zohawn said:


> amen, i love you km


haha thanks, just doing my part  I'll comment on the rest later when i got the time.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

HappyPuppy said:


> I have tried calling my girl a mutt - but then I get corrected by people who see the apparent "pit bull" in her. Others ask me if she is 'full pit'... to which I honestly say no. I always say "I believe she is half" but that she is a shelter mutt so who knows for sure. (she was labeled as 'pit bull' in the shelter) However, if she were involved in any incident, there is no doubt in my mind she would be labeled as a 'pit bull' or 'pit bull mix' so I'm not going to simply say she is a 'mutt' when no one would agree (except, respectfully, KM). I also don't believe in reinforcing the media's 'pit bull' title by giving it credibility and not correcting it at every opportunity - an APBT is an APBT no doubt about it. A mastiff mix is not a 'pit bull', for a random example, and should not be called as such in a news story. I, however, do support the thought that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, that it probably has got duck in it.


as soon as someone asks if your dog is a pit or is full pit..

There is no breed: pit bull... there are bulldogs, bandogs, terriers, and the American Pit Bull Terrier. Then you can easily say, no my dog is not an APBT.

Bulldog is the best universal term. back in the hay day.. Pit Bull was used as a shortened name for the APBT. Now pitbull is just slang that covers everything in the bull and terrier breeds almost bandogs as well.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> as soon as someone asks if your dog is a pit or is full pit..
> 
> There is not breed at pit bull... there are bulldogs, bandogs, terriers, and the American Pit Bull Terrier. Then you can easily say, no my dog is not an APBT.
> 
> Bulldog is the best universal term. back in the hay day.. Pit Bull was used as a shortened name for the APBT. Now pitbull is just slang that covers everything in the bull and terrier breeds almost bandogs as well.


Exactly.. No excuses honestly, whether accepted by the general public or not its the handlers responsibility to correct the foolish terms and assumptions.. In the end you can't cure stupid but you can make a fairly positive impact.. The problem is within as well.. People adapting to whats accepted to define or teach is not the proper method.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> Exactly.. No excuses honestly, whether accepted by the general public or not its the handlers responsibility to correct the foolish terms and assumptions.. In the end you can't cure stupid but you can make a fairly positive impact.. The problem is within as well.. People adapting to whats accepted to define or teach is not the proper method.


but correcting them to understand the pit bull is made up of multiple breeds is a hell of a lot easier to swallow than trying to convince anyone my AmStaff or a well conditioned good looking American Bully is NOT a pit bull. In all honesty it depends on the person and how much time I have to try and explain it, lol. Pretending your mutt isn't a pit bull, sometimes that can backfire on you. I try my best to educate and preach what the truth is. Just saying there are some people who cant or refuse to accept it. Its not worth trying to convince them they MUST it learn on their own time (or as I did with the help of sadie and PK, lol)

I can say the same thing over and over but most people do not know old dog men, they don't know the tradition and start of the breed APBT and how other breeds came to be. These old dog men are the ones who let this breed become what it is today. They are the reason there are multiple breeds being lumped together as one, because they let the first ones get into the common mans hands. and since its commonly accepted by society to call a bunch of breeds pit bulls, maybe a slight conformation to society on my part might help educate the ones who don't realize there are many breeds that are the pit bull. Maybe if I can't beat them, join 'em so they know pit bull is not a breed, but I'm willing to meet half way and try and get them to see the difference between a pit bull and an APBT. These days they really mean 2 separate things.

To each their own of course! Just hoping some can understand why some people might feel differently about the whole situation than they do.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

nah.. not if you know what you know, ya know? 

there all bandogs, bulldogs, or terriers......... unless proven ... aint much in the states as it all has to come in from other lands. So most American Pit Bull Terriers aren't much more than American Stafforshire Terriers.. 

Howard Heinzl.. 
Once we start breeding for looks we might as well call them AmStaffs; thats surely what they'll be..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I love that quote stan! Right on....


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

I have to say that the way shelters label anything short coated and blocky headed a pit mix is one of my pet peeves, however, I have to admit to calling my boy of unknown heritage an APBT when competing in UKC events. He has his ILP with them and fits the standard enough and I can't compete without calling him purebred.
Then again, I also compete with him in AKC as an Am Staff, which he obviously isn't. He fits the standard enough to get a PAL though. Most people at shows call him a 'pit bull' and I sure as hell aren't going to launch into some long discussion trying to dissuade them there, we are too busy kicking Border Collie butt(legally) and being a positive representative.
He looks far more like a purebred APBT then most of the registered 80-90 pound blue dogs that are the norm here...... so my conflict becomes allowing people to think THAT is what a 'purebred' APBT looks like and my 50 pound male must be 'so small' because he is a mix.


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

Kingsgurl said:


> I have to say that the way shelters label anything short coated and blocky headed a pit mix is one of my pet peeves, however, I have to admit to calling my boy of unknown heritage an APBT when competing in UKC events. He has his ILP with them and fits the standard enough and I can't compete without calling him purebred.
> Then again, I also compete with him in AKC as an Am Staff, which he obviously isn't. He fits the standard enough to get a PAL though. Most people at shows call him a 'pit bull' and I sure as hell aren't going to launch into some long discussion trying to dissuade them there, we are too busy kicking Border Collie butt(legally) and being a positive representative.
> He looks far more like a purebred APBT then most of the registered 80-90 pound blue dogs that are the norm here...... so my conflict becomes allowing people to think THAT is what a 'purebred' APBT looks like and my 50 pound male must be 'so small' because he is a mix.


When the ADBA allowed those Whopper dogs and the UKC allowed obvious paper hung mixes to be registered as pure, the line became blurred. Stan is correct in saying most pure american pitbulls are nothing more than Amstaffs. It is what it is and the general public really doesn't listen when you correct them. Most of the best United States dogs are registered in their owners personal notebook and nothing else.

Tiger Woods is considered black even though he is half Asian, because he looks black, people accept this. If it looks like a pitbull it will get called a pitbull. It's just a general term in todays society anyways. People that know bulldogs will know what they have and just politely nod when 100lb dogs are introduced as such. Working Husky owners and working Beagle owners hate the show stuff also, yet we all call a Beagle walking down the street a Beagle when people that work these true dogs would laugh at that. We don't see a difference in labeling those but pick our dogs of choice apart. Pitbull is just a loose term to me and most real working owners usually refer to them as bulldogs. All that matters is what's in it's heart.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> there all bandogs, bulldogs, or terriers......... unless proven ... aint much in the states as it all has to come in from other lands. So most American Pit Bull Terriers aren't much more than American Stafforshire Terriers..


My friend shows her APBT boy Jax in the UKC. He's won multiple ribbons, BISs, etc, and he has heavy Gaff blood on his mother's side. Because that's what's winning in the show ring right now, is AmStaff-looking dogs.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

fishinrob said:


> When the ADBA allowed those Whopper dogs and the UKC allowed obvious paper hung mixes to be registered as pure, the line became blurred. Stan is correct in saying most pure american pitbulls are nothing more than Amstaffs. It is what it is and the general public really doesn't listen when you correct them. Most of the best United States dogs are registered in their owners personal notebook and nothing else.
> 
> Tiger Woods is considered black even though he is half Asian, because he looks black, people accept this. If it looks like a pitbull it will get called a pitbull. It's just a general term in todays society anyways. People that know bulldogs will know what they have and just politely nod when 100lb dogs are introduced as such. Working Husky owners and working Beagle owners hate the show stuff also, yet we all call a Beagle walking down the street a Beagle when people that work these true dogs would laugh at that. We don't see a difference in labeling those but pick our dogs of choice apart. Pitbull is just a loose term to me and most real working owners usually refer to them as bulldogs. All that matters is what's in it's heart.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

fishinrob said:


> When the ADBA allowed those Whopper dogs and the UKC allowed obvious paper hung mixes to be registered as pure, the line became blurred. Stan is correct in saying most pure american pitbulls are nothing more than Amstaffs. It is what it is and the general public really doesn't listen when you correct them. Most of the best United States dogs are registered in their owners personal notebook and nothing else.
> 
> Tiger Woods is considered black even though he is half Asian, because he looks black, people accept this. If it looks like a pitbull it will get called a pitbull. It's just a general term in todays society anyways. People that know bulldogs will know what they have and just politely nod when 100lb dogs are introduced as such. Working Husky owners and working Beagle owners hate the show stuff also, yet we all call a Beagle walking down the street a Beagle when people that work these true dogs would laugh at that. We don't see a difference in labeling those but pick our dogs of choice apart. Pitbull is just a loose term to me and most real working owners usually refer to them as bulldogs. All that matters is what's in it's heart.


I like what Tiger refers to himself as.... Cablasian.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Blackinese...

See im a Native Hillniggy.. Both honky blood and slave blood outcrossed with indian.

Tiger woods is half Korean right or Vietnamese
Thatd be.

Koblakrean. .. Or blackanese... haha


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

This good on principle.

But for one if you're dog looks like a pit its in the crossfire, even if you call your dog something else. Even if its has no pit.

A family had to get a DNA test to prove their boxer mix wasn't a pit. 
A pit is a certain look to them, that is why they take other breeds, American bulldog, lab. It's a out because it looks like this. We know its wrong but they use the vague physical description to take pets.

I fully understand the intentions of the thread. Can't say I really disagree with the idea behind it. But...pure Pits end up in shelters too. Dogs which are pure, dogs with papers, dogs of game ancestry and even fighting dogs.

Dogs with drive are adopted out too. Maybe not game dogs, the owners have no intention of finding out either way game or cur. But willingness to please and drive enough for legal dog sport and work.

Gr Ch 35 didn't have a known pedigree. Was or should he have been called a pit bulldog?

I know that when finding a home for a pit I want to make damn sure the owners know its a pit so that I can find an experienced proper home and the owner knows the potential. Even if I don't know that the dog is 100% pit a mix can still have the potential of pit behavior. Calling the dog a pit mix won't save it from BSL either.

It does suck that in general shelter dog is best guest. It leaves most owners not really knowing what they got. If I wouldn't call my shelter dog an APBT personally unless its proven to actually be one. I'd still likely tell people I know I believe the dog might be a Pit mix.



KMdogs said:


> If you want to call a spade a spade, shelter mixes ARE mutts, mixes, crosses however you want to label them. They are not in no way, shape or form purebred.. A dog with no actual known knowledge of how they were bred than it should be treated as such as you can't prove anything based on appearance.. Mixes can take on shapes, sizes and structure including that of their purebred relatives..


On the same note if a pure bred is in the shelter its still a pure bred. The misfortune of the shelter doesn't change that.

The worse part is that its not simply a pit mix can look pure, but a mix with no pit can resemble one. Which means when an fake bites the APBT breed gets blamed!

One thing we do have in this day and age is DNA. But not all breeds are typed and obviously shelters won't pay for that.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Some really good stuff there, of course thirty5 was a pit bulldog, grch says it all...well proven.

Dogs that come from shelters are ... Pedigree "less" and thus just a different attitude needs to be applied for shelter dog. Most likely its a "---" or near as we can tell.. Shelter dog... Is the best choice for any dog from the shelter, as dogs are named for their work or region...
Shelter dog........


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I don't know one APBT breeder that would allow their hounds to end up in the shelter nor do i know a single person that owns one of these fine hounds that would put them in the shelter.. A proper Bulldog 99% would be PTS instantly in a shelter..

Now can it happen? Can an APBT end up in the shelter? Yes, anything is possible but too many hear this and believe their dogs are pit dogs.. The likely hood is extremely small for various reasons but the three contributing biggest reasons i just outlined above. 

Gr Ch 35 didn't have a known history but was proven as a game dog, 8XW is hardly just some shelter dog.. Back then and even today what mattered was ability and function for purpose.. Mixing no doubt of my mind to create some of them Whopper hounds.. The APBT was not and is not (world wide) the only pit hound, while pound for pound and what the breed offers is something unlike any other.. IMO Gr Ch 35 was a pit dog, plain and simple.. Some can argue based on performance, temperament and pups thrown off 35 what he probably had in his genetic make up but regardless he was tested, proven.. 

Your not going to find that at the HSUS for various reasons, it being illegal, its not whats popular (breeding APBTs.. Advertising is however) list can go on. A hound with remotely significant drive isn't going to last at a shelter.. People don't understand it.

I don't meet half way when it comes to freedom, stupidity and everything else surrounding both hounds and useless legislation.. Agree or disagree here at the end of the day if someone comes up to me talking about their "Blue nose pit", 100lbs, so on so forth i'm going to school them.. Sometimes they listen sometimes they don't, i hate repeating myself but in the end at least im making the effort vs sitting back and letting it happen.. People who listen and allow themselves to learn, chances are they are going to go back and tell others.. Its a cycle that doesn't just end with you and whomever.. I have a fairly positive reputation locally without needing to make public speaking, i've helped quite a few with either training, teaching or anything in relation.. While my impact is not on the same level as a few others out there, i do feel good about it and see that as word gets passed.. More and more are willing to accept what they thought they knew was wrong and want to learn.

Now the variation is great, most will not understand specific aspects such as why a hound needs to have drive in the modern age or why its so important to breed true to the hounds vs what a registry says is important.. But setting aside.. Baby steps.

I see what you are saying old_blood however im not a quitter and far too stubborn to just give in and work around it... I have just cause and those that know.. Know.


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

There never would have been this epidemic of pit shelter dogs if the real dog men hadn't started selling everything to anyone back in the early eighties! Only a select few off of each breeding were allowed to advance, the rest used to be culled. When a dog didn't prove his worth later on, he was culled. Do they even cull anything anymore? It became about the money, and real dogmen started it all.
If I had to guess, I'd say through living in Detroit in the early eighties that the crack situation coencided with the pitbull problem. Crack houses sprouted up in'82 on my block and within a year we had at least two dozen pitbulls on my block. Never seen one before this time. Pretty high end dogs then and by the time I moved out in the early 90's they were all mixed and pretty much junk dogs but they were everywhere.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

fishinrob said:


> There never would have been this epidemic of pit shelter dogs if the real dog men hadn't started selling everything to anyone back in the early eighties! Only a select few off of each breeding were allowed to advance, the rest used to be culled. When a dog didn't prove his worth later on, he was culled. Do they even cull anything anymore? It became about the money, and real dogmen started it all.


I agree totally. And I know back in the day they called APBT, pit bull for short, but now that society has gotten the dogs its a generic term not meaning APBT. Definitions of words change all the time.

Also, KM I just don't agree with your view of most shelter dogs. There, unfortunately, are not good people everywhere and some people do not care about contracts and what they promised or signed they would do if a situation ever arose where they could not keep their dog. They get dumped with valid papers. Shelters will call the breeders and MOST breeders come get the dogs. They would do this before adopting any dog out, or putting it down. (at least in the one I am knowledgeable about) Also, numerous dogs get surrendered to shelters all the time and could go to specific breed rescues, not just pit bulls. Some are from owners of dogs that have died unexpectedly and get dumped at shelters by the survivors family never knowing they could have gone back to the breeder. I am sure you do not know every reputable breeder and every person they have sold a pup too. I am glad you seem to have had only positive experiences though in regards to mutt or mixes not pure breeds in your area, but please understand that is not the case in most states. Trying to pretend they don't is not really being realistic.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Well  !! gotta spread the love before I can give either of you props... SO 

:goodpost:'s both ya'll make outstanding points and in many ways saying the same thing... Yeah.. doubtful say Hammonds has dogs end up in the shelter... NOW do people who have obtained a hammonds dog and got to much then they bargained for and THAT one particular dog end up in the Shelter.. YES, thats the most likely situation if any REAL bulldog ends up there, non show bred dogs. 

Ignorance of the mass' .... the  that won't flush ... you can't fix stupid :hammer:

so what we can do: educate those who flock to listen and hold it down keeping good bulldog dialogue because as soon as that 2012 solar flare hits.. all this electronic  is nuttin but make believe, and the hard core bulldogs that exist will be stuff this country bases its self off of once again.. Maybe this time as a nation we wont go cold...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Well  !! gotta spread the love before I can give either of you props... SO
> 
> :goodpost:'s both ya'll make outstanding points and in many ways saying the same thing... Yeah.. doubtful say Hammonds has dogs end up in the shelter... NOW do people who have obtained a hammonds dog and got to much then they bargained for and THAT one particular dog end up in the Shelter.. YES, thats the most likely situation if any REAL bulldog ends up there, non show bred dogs.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

education is totally key, and we are coming from the same love in the end, and like you I just chose to pick my battles and not tear out my hair when someone argues with me that I own a pit bull. I would be bald if I did, lol. you can't fix stupid. Just trying to see how to progress for the better of the breed without doing any damage to that history.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

keep it simple... 

its just a bulldog nothing less nothing more.. 

its a shelter dog nothing less nothing more.. 

unless proven otherwise


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

:goodpost:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Well  !! gotta spread the love before I can give either of you props... SO
> 
> :goodpost:'s both ya'll make outstanding points and in many ways saying the same thing... Yeah.. doubtful say Hammonds has dogs end up in the shelter... NOW do people who have obtained a hammonds dog and got to much then they bargained for and THAT one particular dog end up in the Shelter.. YES, thats the most likely situation if any REAL bulldog ends up there, non show bred dogs.
> 
> ...


Exactly and show bred APBT's are not "real" APBT's as they are just AST from a different path..

Ames - I disagree in that someone breeding these hounds for purpose, keeping true to the dog.. I've NEVER heard one being ditched off at a shelter THAT survived without being PTS.. Very, very rarely does this happen.. I don't view show "APBT"s as the "real deal" as these dogs are just AST's with a different name and view point on registries.. More of these dogs get put in shelters than APBT's.. American Bullies are full on in shelters but labeled as APBT or "pit bulls".. Why do i say AmBullies are more so than APBTs? Look at supply demand, amount of BYB's compared to APBT's, ignorant owners in it for $$, etc..

Fishinrob - While i agree if dogmen of the 70s and 80's didn't start allowing their stock to the public this wouldn't have happened.. Its easy to shift blame.. Keep in mind not ALL dogmen allowed their hounds off to anyone, even to this day.. Those that did, a good percentage stopped fairly quickly after realizing what was going on and shifted their hounds to other private yards or other means.. Those that kept going eventually stopped but the damage was already done and in the making..

You also have to stop and think about what you truly would have done in their shoes.. After making it a federal offense to [], there are those that got out in the following years after.. You have to think the law already knew very well about these gentlemen that had established themselves and it was realistically a matter of time before their whole lifes work came crashing down on them.. The circle is tight, its a risk to keep them game dogs and continue matching when if you or someone you know gets caught, your yard and you could be risked by reduced sentencing for all that other person knows.. Or vise versa.. So shifting your hounds to others could make or break the idea.. Keeping them is highly risky.. These dogmen that did what they did saw it as the best option for themselves until they realized the problem that was going on in front of them by their actions.. Now i am not suggesting i believe in what they did and those that know me know i feel they should have never allowed these hounds for the general public HOWEVER its hard for me to pass judgement on someone in that type of situation not knowing how i would have handled it at the time.

Now you also have those that saw it as a $$$ profit however IMO they lost sight, for some amount of time of what they were in it for..

Regardless what has been done has been done but i feel too many have this picture in their mind that these dogmen were just throwing hounds every which way.. May have been for isolated situations but by far would i consider that the way it went down.. You also have to keep in mind as well that the APBT is still closely guarded in terms of breeding and handling.. If you believe in what truly makes an APBT what it is, regardless of todays era.. Not that many are breeding or feeding them.. All in who you know even to this date.. The problem is all the mislabeling, show dogs, etc... A show APBT is not an APBT.. Its an AST..

The very, VERY few curs in the shelters being adopted needs to still be treated as such.. Shelter dogs.. Mutts.. Mixes.. Crosses.. Unknowns.. You can't prove what you don't know and you don't know what you can't prove to yourself.. These hounds earned the right to be called APBT's and even though times have changed, the fundamentals and foundations are the same.. If you ain't working you don't know what you have end of story..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> education is totally key, and we are coming from the same love in the end, and like you I just chose to pick my battles and not tear out my hair when someone argues with me that I own a pit bull. I would be bald if I did, lol. you can't fix stupid. Just trying to see how to progress for the better of the breed without doing any damage to that history.


We are educated in our ways, some more some less.. Some more modern views other more "historic" views.. Every where in between and naturally we wont agree on everything.. Theres nothing wrong with healthy debating and discussion.. As this thread for instance..

These type of threads can generate the best source of information for those that don't know.. The difference of views can allow that individual to make their own decision and take away what needs to be taken away..


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

KMdogs said:


> I don't know one APBT breeder that would allow their hounds to end up in the shelter nor do i know a single person that owns one of these fine hounds that would put them in the shelter..


Well all the AKC and UKC dogs came from Gamedog breeders are one point so obviously their yards are not so sacred. Just look at the ADBA Gazette, how many dogs with great old peds are peddled off in that magazine. There are byb's of gamebred dogs as well that peddle of dogs where they can. Also those that did let pups go often didn't do contracts or keep as nearly close of track of their dogs as UKC/AKC people do (where many are co-owns and lengthy contracts). It is pretty well known that you can get gamebred dogs and not have the stipulations that come with show bred dogs. This is not to say that show bred dogs don't end up in shelters as we all know that to be untrue.

I understand that you are saying you don't know any breeder that would let their hounds go to the pound and I get that part and am glad you know breeders who care enough about there dogs.

My point is that all type end up in the shelters. Purebred, mixed bred, game bred, show bred, back yard bred. Some more than others, but in the end they all go to the same place and get the same label when their owners or breeders neglect to take responsibility for them..

I am not arguing that people should call their dog an APBT.. A dog of un known lineage is just that and should be refereed to as so.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> Well all the AKC and UKC dogs came from Gamedog breeders are one point so obviously their yards are not so sacred. Just look at the ADBA Gazette, how many dogs with great old peds are peddled off in that magazine. There are byb's of gamebred dogs as well that peddle of dogs where they can. Also those that did let pups go often didn't do contracts or keep as nearly close of track of their dogs as UKC/AKC people do (where many are co-owns and lengthy contracts). It is pretty well known that you can get gamebred dogs and not have the stipulations that come with show bred dogs. This is not to say that show bred dogs don't end up in shelters as we all know that to be untrue.
> 
> I understand that you are saying you don't know any breeder that would let their hounds go to the pound and I get that part and am glad you know breeders who care enough about there dogs.
> 
> ...


I agree with your posting though as stated before any hound with any level of drive isn't going to last long at the shelter.. Won't be adopted out except perhaps on extremely rare occasion.. As to the Gazette you are absolutely correct however like in my last post i consider these show dogs, regardless of game bred or not to be AST's.. Or at best, performance ASTs.. May not fit what the registry says an AST is in terms of physical and structure.. However in the end these show apbts aren't exactly going to for fill the purpose of which these hounds were bred for..

Now, granted there are APBT's that are both show and go but that isn't the norm so im not going to really go into that all much..


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> We are educated in our ways, some more some less.. Some more modern views other more "historic" views.. Every where in between and naturally we wont agree on everything.. Theres nothing wrong with healthy debating and discussion.. As this thread for instance..
> 
> These type of threads can generate the best source of information for those that don't know.. The difference of views can allow that individual to make their own decision and take away what needs to be taken away..


totally agree!!

One thing I always have a hard time swallowing is knowing you have a mutt or a shelter dog with unknown heritage because its not papered, but yet in the next posts talk about how papers are wrong and commonly mislabeled APBT when really AmStaff, AmBully, etc. What good are the papers if they are not the "correct" breed? It makes it super confusing and hard to see why unpapered dogs should be different than a pedigree that's not in fact what its listed as. Not sure if I am making sense. In any case, I also agree that a true drive of a APBT would almost always make it not be adoptable. Not trying to argue that point either.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

KMdogs said:


> though as stated before any hound with any level of drive isn't going to last long at the shelter.. Won't be adopted out except perhaps on extremely rare occasion..


Oh most definitely. I don't doubt that at all. I personally think it to be a good thing as the average person can handle a dog like that so they don't need to be adopted out. That is setting an owner up for failure. Usually people going to a shelter are looking for a pet not a high drive, working style dog.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> totally agree!!
> 
> One thing I always have a hard time swallowing is knowing you have a mutt or a shelter dog with unknown heritage because its not papered, but yet in the next posts talk about how papers are wrong and commonly mislabeled APBT when really AmStaff, AmBully, etc. What good are the papers if they are not the "correct" breed? It makes it super confusing and hard to see why unpapered dogs should be different than a pedigree that's not in fact what its listed as. Not sure if I am making sense. In any case, I also agree that a true drive of a APBT would almost always make it not be adoptable. Not trying to argue that point either.


This is why i don't support any registry, they are all greedy and far off what they used to stand for now in days.. Of course, to a degree it has always been this case but as years have passed its gotten worse and worse.. The incorrect papers are due to lack of knowledge from the "breeder" and the registry.. Plain and simple.. I wish all registries would go back to supporting true working hounds, purpose and actual temperament.. Not these genetic disasters being passed off as "perfect" examples.. Funny how back in the day the UKC had its own pit rules and supported.. As others.. Oh well, if your involved on the working spectrum you generally don't see eye to eye with much of the registries sayings.. Your in it for the dog.. Show people... God save them because they need all the help they can get.. But thats another topic all together lol



American_Pit13 said:


> Oh most definitely. I don't doubt that at all. I personally think it to be a good thing as the average person can handle a dog like that so they don't need to be adopted out. That is setting an owner up for failure. Usually people going to a shelter are looking for a pet not a high drive, working style dog.


It is, the average joe down the street has no business owning these hounds.. Or any "true" hound bred to purpose.. These breeders to many degree have gone back to the old ways in terms of how they handle business.. Problem is the garbage has already diluted and theres no turning back now.. Whats done is done and its only getting worse.. Unfortunately.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> Some really good stuff there, of course thirty5 was a pit bulldog, grch says it all...well proven.
> 
> Dogs that come from shelters are ... Pedigree "less" and thus just a different attitude needs to be applied for shelter dog. Most likely its a "---" or near as we can tell.. Shelter dog... Is the best choice for any dog from the shelter, as dogs are named for their work or region...
> Shelter dog........


I see it this way too. A terrier is a dog used for a certain job, as is a bulldog, a herding dog or scent hound. You call a dog by its function. However I feel it irresponsible for me to call a dog I know is a pit or believe to possibly be pit mix simply a mutt. Pits really need responsible owners to prevent tragedy and more bad press. People need to be aware of what they have, the possibilities and the dos and don'ts. Otherwise when new owner takes their "mutt" to the dog park, because he acts friendly, and a fight breaks out, the other dog gets seriously injured its my fault. They're ignorance is due to me not sharing important information.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

KMdogs said:


> I don't know one APBT breeder that would allow their hounds to end up in the shelter nor do i know a single person that owns one of these fine hounds that would put them in the shelter.. A proper Bulldog 99% would be PTS instantly in a shelter..


That is great. Unfortunately they're are many breeders who do nothing to prevent it. They don't keep tabs on pups. The high profile dogmen. They breed and sell including to general public. Many are responsible for the dilution of the real APBT and demise of the breed. Only those who don't sell pups and likely don't even register them are really doing a service. They breed to keep the breed alive and for their own yard.

I have a lot of respect for Floyd. But he bred a lot of dogs and in turn they ended up in all types of hands. He may not be active now, but the dogs still have the genes. He also told me he had semen off Reno (a winner) and studs on other yards, ect. He had a way to start again. Now he has. I know someone who bought several from him and they are breeding and selling pups. These dogs have the potenial to be bulldogs, but also a high potential for some to be shelter dogs. I was told a sad joke before, if you want a Boudreaux dog check the LA shelter. I'd never disrespect F.B. or another such man. It's just the way things are and have been for a long time.

There is a dog who was rescued after hurricane katrina. Now I cam recognize some dogs lines by sight but would never claim that a legit way to establish a bloodline. However this dog has an identical resemblance and the line has a somewhat unique look. The muzzle, skull, build, size, color and even the way his eyes are set. He has all that plus the temperament shy around new people, total outgoing with people he knows, prey driven, can get a little wound up/hyper (of course after living in a cage for a couple years some dogs need some retraining). He's approximately same age as "mine" (dogs actually belonged to my ex) and regionally not to far off to maybe been a sold puppy made his way there. I've no definative proof but its a possibility. Regardless if he's not he still wasn't put ti sleep even the temperament isn't stellar and he's drivey. I know he's one of many like that.

Then you got novelty owners, they want a gamebred dog, especially from a known dogmans yard. When they tire of the dog it goes where ever. Some do this multiple times too.

With dogmen breeding many litters then selling to anyone, including novelty owners and paper breeders. These fine bred dogs end up in shelters. Which doesn't mean they will be PTS.

Other breeders don't allow it but can't do much. When one of my dogs littermates ended up in the shelter she at least attempted to get her out (even willing ti take some of the others from that yard). They were adopting them out BUT only after being altered, the kicker those was they absolutely refused to adopt them out of state. These dogs were at least bred to be bulldogs. The shelter had no problem putting them in the general publication hands. You see how with some this may be bad for the more, determined, driven ones.

You're also not considering pups. Which many times behave differently. Shelters easily adopt them out then they grow into high drive, DA and/or high energy dog. When it comes pits, they have the possibility of being a game dog, but the owner isn't going to make them a proven bulldog.



> Now can it happen? Can an APBT end up in the shelter? Yes, anything is possible but too many hear this and believe their dogs are pit dogs.. The likely hood is extremely small for various reasons but the three contributing biggest reasons i just outlined above.


You also forgot no kill shelters. Some hand pick and only take certain dogs. Then others take any type and they don't PTS. Like the one here, all breeds and types and from all over the state. I don't think its always a good thing. Adopting out problem dogs, even human aggresive dogs. Those that have real problems.



> Gr Ch 35 didn't have a known history but was proven as a game dog, 8XW is hardly just some shelter dog.. Back then and even today what mattered was ability and function for purpose.. Mixing no doubt of my mind to create some of them Whopper hounds.. The APBT was not and is not (world wide) the only pit hound, while pound for pound and what the breed offers is something unlike any other.. IMO Gr Ch 35 was a pit dog, plain and simple.. Some can argue based on performance, temperament and pups thrown off 35 what he probably had in his genetic make up but regardless he was tested, proven..


Dogs like Gr Ch 35 can end up in shelters.



> Your not going to find that at the HSUS for various reasons, it being illegal, its not whats popular (breeding APBTs.. Advertising is however) list can go on. A hound with remotely significant drive isn't going to last at a shelter.. People don't understand it.


HSUS don't run shelters. You're probably thinking local HS and ASPCA. Who's policies and what dogs get put up for adoption varies. Not that it matters not every place has one of those. And a lot of these shelters may not gave strict policy on their dogs.

Dog fighting is illegal but you also mentioned legal work. What legal work for is acceptable to consider a dog a bulldog? Game bred dogs who might be game can end up in shelters, nothing illegal has been done with them but they were bred for the box.

Dogs with drive last and get adopted at shelters. Not just APBT but shepherds, border Collies, bloodhounds, ect. People not only get pets who's drive and energy levels they can't handle but there are a few who seek their working dog from a shelter even though they could buy a specialized bred pup. They do get successful SAR, herding, ect. Some dogs end up in the shelter because owners didn't realize the breeds needs.



> I don't meet half way when it comes to freedom, stupidity and everything else surrounding both hounds and useless legislation.. Agree or disagree here at the end of the day if someone comes up to me talking about their "Blue nose pit", 100lbs, so on so forth i'm going to school them.. Sometimes they listen sometimes they don't, i hate repeating myself but in the end at least im making the effort vs sitting back and letting it happen.. People who listen and allow themselves to learn, chances are they are going to go back and tell others.. Its a cycle that doesn't just end with you and whomever.. I have a fairly positive reputation locally without needing to make public speaking, i've helped quite a few with either training, teaching or anything in relation.. While my impact is not on the same level as a few others out there, i do feel good about it and see that as word gets passed.. More and more are willing to accept what they thought they knew was wrong and want to learn.


Sounds like we have somethings in common. I'm all about helping. Giving advice, sharing knowledge. Tending to a dog or giving a pup shots. I'm also constantly telling people their dog might be a pit BUT its impossible to tell just by looking. It's possibly a pit mix who looks pit or even a mix with no pit in the ancestry. I also try to get people not to breed their unpapered "pits" or their papered ones even when I can see they are far from a real pit. It doesn't always work but you gotta try right. With my own dogs they also speak for the breed somewhat. Not everyone realizes the difference in type nor the bullies are mixes or even about AST. When they want to know why my dogs are ripped or how come their dog always pants so heavy even though they work the dog. It's an opportunity for education. While looks isn't the most important thing teaching them about structure, its a start. A dog with better form better function vs a short, stocky, shallow chested, easty westy dog.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

KMdogs said:


> I agree with your posting though as stated before any hound with any level of drive isn't going to last long at the shelter.. Won't be adopted out except perhaps on extremely rare occasion.. As to the Gazette you are absolutely correct however like in my last post i consider these show dogs, regardless of game bred or not to be AST's.. Or at best, performance ASTs.. May not fit what the registry says an AST is in terms of physical and structure.. However in the end these show apbts aren't exactly going to for fill the purpose of which these hounds were bred for..
> 
> Now, granted there are APBT's that are both show and go but that isn't the norm so im not going to really go into that all much..


How do you consider them show dogs? Some are, some are pull dogs, some are game and some are bully. You don't have to show to put in an ad. Some of the breeders don't show and the dogs have only been in the box. Game bred pups and bulldog at stud.

Another thing Pits can adapt to different setting. Not all are high drive either. One of the virtues of the breed is that that they can be relaxed dogs in one setting and the complete opposite when its time to boogie. I've had a few that were neurotic you'd think they had some malinois in them. But you can have a real bulldog who ain't and content. Just like you can have a high energy fire filled cur. From what I've seen it varies by line and breeding. They're not all wild just because they are bred for work.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree and thanks for saying it way better than me  if we try and convince people their dogs are different than other breeds how can we then tell them to call their dog a mutt and not a pit bull. If their dog COULD have potential to be DA from hat it could be
Mixed with why try and tell them they have a plain ol mutt. Why not give a generic classification so they can respect what might happen one day. 

Thanks for stating your thoughts old_blood has a lot of other examples I waning even thinking of.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Old_Blood said:


> I see it this way too. A terrier is a dog used for a certain job, as is a bulldog, a herding dog or scent hound. You call a dog by its function. However I feel it irresponsible for me to call a dog I know is a pit or believe to possibly be pit mix simply a mutt. Pits really need responsible owners to prevent tragedy and more bad press. People need to be aware of what they have, the possibilities and the dos and don'ts. Otherwise when new owner takes their "mutt" to the dog park, because he acts friendly, and a fight breaks out, the other dog gets seriously injured its my fault. They're ignorance is due to me not sharing important information.


Yeah huh... function is the purpose and thus the name.

I didn't say call your dog a mutt; rather keep it simple...

shelter dog... unless proven otherwise;

per say a working dog of any type that may get adopted and prove itself throught work other than that; simply a shelter dog.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Old_Blood said:


> How do you consider them show dogs? Some are, some are pull dogs, some are game and some are bully. You don't have to show to put in an ad. Some of the breeders don't show and the dogs have only been in the box. Game bred pups and bulldog at stud.
> 
> Another thing Pits can adapt to different setting. Not all are high drive either. One of the virtues of the breed is that that they can be relaxed dogs in one setting and the complete opposite when its time to boogie. I've had a few that were neurotic you'd think they had some malinois in them. But you can have a real bulldog who ain't and content. Just like you can have a high energy fire filled cur. From what I've seen it varies by line and breeding. They're not all wild just because they are bred for work.


LOL Any APBT bred for the show ring is a show dog.. How can anyone argue that? AST wasn't always a show breed and at one point one of the same with APBT.. Breed the APBT towards the show ring we already know how that ends..

All APBTs are high drive in order to successfully [] and win they must have the heart and ability.. Function and drive.. Of course, game. No "real" bulldog is going to lack drive.. High drive is not the same as high energy and yes, not all are "wild" and a few knew how to turn it off and could actually be around other hounds with little DA issues until it came down to the box.. Not the norm by any means but yeah.

You dont know a hound has APBT in them by just looking at them, you might can guess but you dont know for a fact... Especially when it comes to mixes and mutts.. It is fair to call a "pit bull" mix a mutt because thats what it is.. A mutt is two or several breeds mixed together, no purpose at random.

Call a spade a spade, keep it simple... Now in days people complicate things way too much.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> I agree and thanks for saying it way better than me  if we try and convince people their dogs are different than other breeds how can we then tell them to call their dog a mutt and not a pit bull. If their dog COULD have potential to be DA from hat it could be
> Mixed with why try and tell them they have a plain ol mutt. Why not give a generic classification so they can respect what might happen one day.
> 
> Thanks for stating your thoughts old_blood has a lot of other examples I waning even thinking of.


These dogs are not the only ones with DA.. Now in days non traditional breeds are coming up DA which just adds to the list.. I've seen extremely DA Labradors, DA Boxers just to give a few.. DA is not limited to our breed and when you start mixing genetics DA can happen to any mix that does not have APBT or any bull and terrier.. DA is not a breed specific trait, now DA does run extremely thick in these hounds and the likelyhood of you having a non DA bulldog is very unlikely and a non DA Labrador has better chances.. Point is you can't say "That mix is DA therefore...."


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Old_blood pretty soon we are just going to go into a circle so we will just have to agree to disagree.. A proven hound that ends up at the shelter will be PTS virtually right then and there, a game dog put under the stress of living with potentially hundreds of dogs in closed conditions will not last.. Also, as fast as gameness can be housed it can disappear.. You make it sound like its possible for someone to go to HS and adopt a game dog.. That will never happen..

As stated YES, these dogs can end up at the shelter but based on my experience, its not as frequent as you make it out to be and even if you are the lucky one to adopt out a purebred.. *You can't prove what you don't know and you don't know what you can't prove to yourself..* That sums that up.. If you don't know what your feeding you don't know..

No one adopts a dog from a shelter who wants a specific purpose bred hound, occasionally you might find someone looking at breed specific rescues but if your looking for a world class working hound your going to go to the source not a rescue or shelter.. You can't call these unknowns at the shelters the same as working hounds, IMO disrespectful and wrong.. Obvious reasons.. Aside from my personal opinions you don't know what your feeding so treat it as such.. Spade a spade.

So no, hounds like Gr Ch 35 can not be adopted as it takes hard work and dedication to keep that gameness instilled and alive.. I think its wrong of anyone to give someone the false impression you can find a purpose bred hound, ready to work from an HS..

Now many hunters WILL adopt curs from shelters to use in various catch dog programs as well as look for potential tree/trail hound crosses as its far cheaper to adopt and put to work vs going through a breeder.. However this can also be picked apart to no end.. I can just say i wouldn't do it and leave it at that.

I don't know what shelters your going to but i've rarely seen hounds of any type with true DRIVE get adopted.. HYPER yes, extremely active yes.. Drive no. I think your either confusing drive with other traits or something.. I've helped shelters, been to several across the southeast, have friends involved in the medical aspect of HS's, training, etc.. I've seen my fair share and more than a "normal" person.. Never seen a hound with drive at any type of shelter.. Well, i've seen them enter but not for long.

Working stock GSDs and any breed is EXTREMELY rare and again, wouldn't last long. Theres not that many breeders with working stock yards in the US by comparison to show/BYB's.. Even by just sheer numbers, its low.. A show bred or BYB is not going to display or have instilled any amount of drive worth mentioning and genetically some pretty screwed up hounds over all.. So not sure where you were going with that..

I think we are in essence saying the same thing with the details on different ends of the spectrum.. Regardless as i said already i'm going to have to agree to disagree and move on for now just because im starting to feel like i'm just going in circles.. You as well and no point in ruining a good thread by back and forth saying the same thing.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

we all agree a DA lab is in no way the same thing as a DA pit bull, right? Just think I spend so much time trying to get people to realize its not just about how you raise a dog its what is in its blood from history, to try and just lump them with other mixed breeds. Kinda like your dog is special and deserves to be treated as such, but dont call it a pit bull because it really isn't one. but alas, you are correct, we need to move on because disagreements happen and no matter how many times you beat a dead horse... and all that..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> we all agree a DA lab is in no way the same thing as a DA pit bull, right? Just think I spend so much time trying to get people to realize its not just about how you raise a dog its what is in its blood from history, to try and just lump them with other mixed breeds. Kinda like your dog is special and deserves to be treated as such, but dont call it a pit bull because it really isn't one. but alas, you are correct, we need to move on because disagreements happen and no matter how many times you beat a dead horse... and all that..


Generally yes, i agree with you.. DA is genetically instilled in these hounds where as normally DA in other breeds like the ones i've mentioned with proper patience, proper training can be reduced drastically to absolutely none.. However there are a few lines of labradors in the SE where DA has actually been thrown consistently genetically.. I've also seen Boxers with DA instilled, properly bred throughout.. There are many reasons for this, none of which this thread is for but i can say while i tend to agree with your statement its not always the case..

You start changing the breed and playing with genetics, if you don't know what your doing you are ina world of :snap:.. All over the country labs are getting more and more HA and its starting to taint yards rapidly..


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

All great convo! KM good point: HA only takes one breeding to obtain.. and a decade or more to eradicate....


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Let me go back a bit ... I can't tell people Kane is a BYB pit bull and explain why they need to go through reputable breeders, even though that's what he is, even though explaining his situation is helpful to most people, even though if I were to try and say "Well, he's really NOT an APBT because he isn't gamebred or reputably bred" most people would look at me like I'm crazy and tell me he's a pit bull because he looks like a pit bull type dog and nothing else.

Because if you want to get technical, a BYB pit bull is about the same as a shelter dog since you can't prove heritage.

Is that correct?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> All great convo! KM good point: HA only takes one breeding to obtain.. and a decade or more to eradicate....


Exactly, only takes one breeding to produce something unnatural to a breed and at least several generations to breed back out if possible.. Some genes never really can be bred "out" per se, rather, buried until resurfaced..

What separates the APBT with DA in other breeds, however is drive and the next level to gameness.. Other than pit hounds, no other breed shares that.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> Let me go back a bit ... I can't tell people Kane is a BYB pit bull and explain why they need to go through reputable breeders, even though that's what he is, even though explaining his situation is helpful to most people, even though if I were to try and say "Well, he's really NOT an APBT because he isn't gamebred or reputably bred" most people would look at me like I'm crazy and tell me he's a pit bull because he looks like a pit bull type dog and nothing else.
> 
> Because if you want to get technical, a BYB pit bull is about the same as a shelter dog since you can't prove heritage.
> 
> Is that correct?


If i were you, i would just tell them simply put hes a Bulldog or rescue.. While i don't care for generic terms, Bulldog is about as broad as you can get and has been for years.. APBT's are Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven.. A Bulldog, in simplest terms can be acceptable.. Rescue, also acceptable if you don't want to go through the entire conversation of what you just pointed out as you have legit way of finding out what went into Kane.. Same as a rescue.. Shelter dog.. If you will..

If i were feeding an unknown, i would simply tell people its an unknown.. Wouldn't change my love for that said dog, just calling them what they are..


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Most people would be confused if I told them he was a bulldog, though, however accurate it might be. Bulldog = english bulldog for most people. I'd have to explain that to them. As for rescue, I don't feel comfortable telling people he's a rescue because he's not. Rescue, to me, is a dog from a shelter or an actual rescue. Not a puppy from a breeder I was too stupid to realize was a BYB.

That's why I go with BYB pit bull. You tell that to the general public, the people you're most likely to run into on the street, and they know what you're talking about. No confusion.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> Most people would be confused if I told them he was a bulldog, though, however accurate it might be. Bulldog = english bulldog for most people. I'd have to explain that to them. As for rescue, I don't feel comfortable telling people he's a rescue because he's not. Rescue, to me, is a dog from a shelter or an actual rescue. Not a puppy from a breeder I was too stupid to realize was a BYB.
> 
> That's why I go with BYB pit bull. You tell that to the general public, the people you're most likely to run into on the street, and they know what you're talking about. No confusion.


To me, and i mean no offense to you here, is the lazy way out.. That would be like me accepting that the common person coming up to me telling me i have nice looking "Pit Bulls".. Thats not what they are and if i have to take 5 minutes to explain to them, in baby terms, what they are and what an APBT is i will.. If they get it and i have time to further educate them i will.. If they don't i tried and move on.. You can't cure stupid but you can attempt to educate those that are misguided..

As stated before, i've helped a good amount of people locally and some refused to give in to what they thought they knew at first.. I don't pretend to believe i can change everyones mind but i do know you educate one.. That one will educate another or bring them to you... Etc.. To accept the wrongful information and what the general public *thinks*... Thats not exactly productive no matter if one means well or doesn't..

I have a very "old school" way of thinking i guess..


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

I understand what you're saying. And I'm all for education as that's the only thing that can really help save the pit bull type dogs.

It's just that 99.9% of people DON'T CARE. Not even that they wouldn't understand what I'm trying to tell them after a time, but that they just don't care. They see a "pit bull" and they don't look beyond the surface to all the intricacies underneath.

I've met a handful of people on the street that genuinely seemed to care about what I had to say and my efforts to educate them. But when the majority of people I come into contact with are those that happen to be walking by and go, "nice pit girl" or "aw, isn't he just the cutest pittie!", I'm not going to waste my breath spending 5-10-15 minutes explaining why they're WRONG, when all they want to do is give me a compliment on my dog and nothing more. It'll go in one ear and out the other, with an expression like I'm freaking crazy to boot.

It's like complimenting someone on their shirt and then having them take up another 20 minutes of your time explaining, well, no this isn't actually cotton, it's mostly polyester and the dye isn't such-and-such but actually ...

At what point in that conversation would you start tuning that person out and just start nodding your head, hoping to get away as fast as possible from the loony person who thinks you actually care about that sort of thing?


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

KMdogs said:


> LOL Any APBT bred for the show ring is a show dog.. How can anyone argue that? AST wasn't always a show breed and at one point one of the same with APBT.. Breed the APBT towards the show ring we already know how that ends..


Never argued that. You need to read your statement and re read my reply. Here is what you said.

*As to the Gazette you are absolutely correct however like in my last post i consider these show dogs, regardless of game bred or not to be AST's.. Or at best, performance ASTs.. May not fit what the registry says an AST is in terms of physical and structure.. However in the end these show apbts aren't exactly going to for fill the purpose of which these hounds were bred for..*

Like my original reply said you don't have to show to advertise in the gazette. It isn't only show dogs or those bred for show. You're reply read as if you consider dogs bred for the box or proven dogs "show dogs" or "ast". They are GAME BRED dogs. The proven ones are bulldogs. What the pups/unproven turn out to be depends on the buyer pet, show dog, shelter dog, game dog or pull dog, ect.

Americanpit was clearly taking about how these dogs are sold left and right.

I consider GR CH Lukane x Hellfire to be game bred litter with the purpose of creating bulldogs! (this breeding produced winners/game)If you saw an add with an Earl Jr male called Tank he's a 1xw. These are not show dogs, I could fill the page with examples of world famous dogs or those that I know of.



> All APBTs are high drive in order to successfully [] and win they must have the heart and ability.. Function and drive.. Of course, game. No "real" bulldog is going to lack drive.. High drive is not the same as high energy and yes, not all are "wild" and a few knew how to turn it off and could actually be around other hounds with little DA issues until it came down to the box.. Not the norm by any means but yeah.


I realize high drive and high energy are not the same. What is high drive? That you are describing that they all have? I see difference from one dog to the next to say all are like this. I wasn't even talking about turning DA off but thats true too. There are dogs who have the will to fight but are not dog reactive or fight crazy. My male proven bulldog (may he RIP in bulldog heaven) would be calm most the time, certain situations or elements would bring the excitement, desire to fight out of him.



> You dont know a hound has APBT in them by just looking at them, you might can guess but you dont know for a fact... Especially when it comes to mixes and mutts.. It is fair to call a "pit bull" mix a mutt because thats what it is.. A mutt is two or several breeds mixed together, no purpose at random.


So true. I'm not exactly in full disagreement with your original point. That's why again I tell people their dog may or may not be a Pit. If its from a shelter, was a stray or came from a half ass breeder they can't be certain.



> I've seen extremely DA Labradors, DA Boxers just to give a few.. DA is not limited to our breed and when you start mixing genetics DA can happen to any mix that does not have APBT or any bull and terrier.. DA is not a breed specific trait, now DA does run extremely thick in these hounds and the likelyhood of you having a non DA bulldog is very unlikely and a non DA Labrador has better chances.. Point is you can't say "That mix is DA therefore...."


Again true! However if you know about the APBT then you know its more than just DA. It's fighting style and ability that can cause issues, even a dog social Pit that finds itself could be a totally different animal. I've seen lots of DA Boxers too but if a Boxer fights minimal damage is likely done. If a Pit fights you need a breaking stick or some know how. Serious damage can happen. People always say I make the breed sound bad, vicious, blah blah. I'd rather drive home the seriousness of their fighting capability and prevent another tragedy. I guess its all in how you raise em and its fine to take friendly pibbles to the dog park sounds better.



> Old_blood pretty soon we are just going to go into a circle so we will just have to agree to disagree.. A proven hound that ends up at the shelter will be PTS virtually right then and there, a game dog put under the stress of living with potentially hundreds of dogs in closed conditions will not last.. Also, as fast as gameness can be housed it can disappear.. You make it sound like its possible for someone to go to HS and adopt a game dog.. That will never happen..


You're probably right. I have to stand by my experience and what I know. Which while I agree with you on some things, you've not had the sane experiences. Those are what gives anyone their greatest convictions.

Not all shelters nor dogs are the same.



> As stated YES, these dogs can end up at the shelter but based on my experience, its not as frequent as you make it out to be and even if you are the lucky one to adopt out a purebred.. *You can't prove what you don't know and you don't know what you can't prove to yourself..* That sums that up.. If you don't know what your feeding you don't know..


You're right but I do know my dogs littermates pedigree, ect. So it can happen, msybe not often.

I agree that we have no way to know. You could adopt a game bred dog or a boxer/am bulldog mix, but you'll never know either way. So it makes no difference. The new owners of her and the others have no idea what they got. They don't know they have finely bred dogs nor are they going to match them. People can't know what they got by looking.



> No one adopts a dog from a shelter who wants a specific purpose bred hound, occasionally you might find someone looking at breed specific rescues but if your looking for a world class working hound your going to go to the source not a rescue or shelter.. You can't call these unknowns at the shelters the same as working hounds, IMO disrespectful and wrong.. Obvious reasons.. Aside from my personal opinions you don't know what your feeding so treat it as such.. Spade a spade.


You forgot to say no one YOU know.
I don't think its disrespectful if they work. They are proving themselves by function. If the bloodhound finds kidnap victims and murder suspects its doing the job. This dog came from the shelter but is working right along side the working bred Border Collie.



> So no, hounds like Gr Ch 35 can not be adopted as it takes hard work and dedication to keep that gameness instilled and alive.. I think its wrong of anyone to give someone the false impression you can find a purpose bred hound, ready to work from an HS..


I've no reason to give anyone a false impression. I don't believe everyone can find what they want at the shelter. I like selectively bred dogs myself.



> I don't know what shelters your going to but i've rarely seen hounds of any type with true DRIVE get adopted.. HYPER yes, extremely active yes.. Drive no. I think your either confusing drive with other traits or something.. I've helped shelters, been to several across the southeast, have friends involved in the medical aspect of HS's, training, etc.. I've seen my fair share and more than a "normal" person.. Never seen a hound with drive at any type of shelter.. Well, i've seen them enter but not for long.


Highly doubt I'm confusing it with something else but you could take the time to enlighten me.

Could say that's a shame but maybe its for the better in some cases, because the dogs can just end up brought back. Not to mention bad outcomes when people can't handle a dog with drive.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> I understand what you're saying. And I'm all for education as that's the only thing that can really help save the pit bull type dogs.
> 
> It's just that 99.9% of people DON'T CARE. Not even that they wouldn't understand what I'm trying to tell them after a time, but that they just don't care. They see a "pit bull" and they don't look beyond the surface to all the intricacies underneath.
> 
> ...


This is why, in my opinion it is important for all to be on the same boat.. American Bully breeders need to be promoting, registering as American Bullies.. Nothing more nothing less.. Same goes with all these breeds advertised as "Pit Bulls"... Registries need to get a grip on what they used to be about and do something about it, the dogs.. The more everyone thats involved with these dogs in any form are on the same page, the more of an impact there will be vs one here, one there..

Of course, this is asking for ALOT especially given the state of things.. However its not IMPOSSIBLE and it should already be a GIVEN.. Its all marketing.. BYB's have cashed out majorly on public perception and ignorance..

If i were a breeder of APBT's and someone came up asking me if i sold "Pits".. I would turn them away or if they seemed worth the time to educate, mentor them.. Its that easy yet many "breeders" and even legit breeders breeding for the hounds don't do this.. Its greed that is driving the path and it should be the hounds..

The ones that are in it for the hounds, you don't hear about.. Those that own proper bulldogs, you don't hear about.. Its the fad, the now, the popular.. When it dies and moves on its going to either go in favor or against the all APBT..

Until then, in attempt, i will do my best but as i've said.. I won't give in to what others think they know.. It's not how it works.. We have the power to fix the problems but as a whole lack the drive.. We all claim to be for one thing but not very many are doing much to help.. Not saying anyone here but as a whole..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Old_Blood said:


> You're probably right. I have to stand by my experience and what I know. Which while I agree with you on some things, you've not had the sane experiences. Those are what gives anyone their greatest convictions.


And that is what we all go on.. No substitute for hands on experience and thats where the knowledge begin.. What you have experienced and what i have experienced may be quite similar but obviously on this particular subject, it differs.. One also has to consider that two can share the same experience but take different things from that same experience.. Utilize it to their own ability..

It is what it is, as i've said for the most part we are coming from the same place but beating to a different tune.. To what we disagree to, i'm sure we will continue to do so but at least it gives an outsider looking in food for thought.

At least we are able to do so in a respectful manor.. No harm in disagreements as no two people agree on everything.. Problem is when lack of respect emerges, no one learns anything..


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Aren't you supposed to be making us cry because we disagree with you, KM? :hammer:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> Aren't you supposed to be making us cry because we disagree with you, KM? :hammer:


Not if it makes sense.. After all i know on these type of subjects theres not always one answer.. Plus i like you so i'm cutting you a break.. Keep it up and you'll get your  slapped to 2012 and back.. :rofl:


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Oh, thank you, thank you, KM. You are so kind and merciful. *bows and scrapes before you* lol


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> Oh, thank you, thank you, KM. You are so kind and merciful. *bows and scrapes before you* lol


LOL well you know, i can't beat you all the time k8n.. Got to show the compassion so you keep coming back for more punishment.


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## Old_Blood (Jan 10, 2008)

Wow typing on a phone sure is slow

See and the thing is you cant prove Kane's lineage nor is he a proven game dog. But you bought him as a pit and people will recognize him as such. I don't think calling him a Byb pit is wrong exactly. He is from a breeder that may or may not have pure bred and wasn't breeding true APBTs, but he is a probable mostly pit bull from a genetic stand point. You can explain, I'm not really sure of his background, he isn't bred to be a proper working APBT. If they want to know more they'll ask and you can educate them on what a real APBT is. If not they will say ok and move on. You have to "pick your battles". Will this person listen or do you just say thanks and walk on. 

When people compliment my dogs, ask what type of pit, ect I get responses ranging from looks like I must be confused or outright had dumb asses tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

When you tell them your dog is an APBT for instance. The only real kind. 
"oh its mixed with terrier" 
"looks like a red nose to me" 
"i had an American before, my brother has a blue nose"
One guy had a German Pit Bull whatever that is, I've heard other people say the same. 

You got to take a deep breath then dive in. If they are truly idiots its not worth an arguement.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> This is why, in my opinion it is important for all to be on the same boat.. American Bully breeders need to be promoting, registering as American Bullies.. Nothing more nothing less.. Same goes with all these breeds advertised as "Pit Bulls"... Registries need to get a grip on what they used to be about and do something about it, the dogs.. The more everyone thats involved with these dogs in any form are on the same page, the more of an impact there will be vs one here, one there..
> 
> Of course, this is asking for ALOT especially given the state of things.. However its not IMPOSSIBLE and it should already be a GIVEN.. Its all marketing.. BYB's have cashed out majorly on public perception and ignorance..
> 
> ...


i agree 100%, gameness is completely lost in humans now days


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## Chloesmygirl (Jan 31, 2011)

Old_Blood said:


> I see it this way too. A terrier is a dog used for a certain job, as is a bulldog, a herding dog or scent hound. You call a dog by its function. However I feel it irresponsible for me to call a dog I know is a pit or believe to possibly be pit mix simply a mutt. Pits really need responsible owners to prevent tragedy and more bad press. People need to be aware of what they have, the possibilities and the dos and don'ts. Otherwise when new owner takes their "mutt" to the dog park, because he acts friendly, and a fight breaks out, the other dog gets seriously injured its my fault. They're ignorance is due to me not sharing important information.


:goodpost: :goodpost:

Old_Blood you have made several excellent posts throughout this thread, especially post #83.

I have come to the conclusion that for me, it is best to say pit mix or pit bull mix, depending on who I am talking to. If I am filling out paperwork I can't put down "shelter dog", that just isn't going to fly. I have used the term "AST mix" on occasion.

When you are signing up for a dog training class, they want an "idea" of what breed you are bringing to class not just "shelter dog" or mutt. They want an idea of what you think the dog's predominant breed is. Same thing with the vet's office, vaccination clinics, county licensing agency, etc.

Now I happen to be standing in line getting my dog's vaccinations. There was another lady in line behind me and she asked me what kind of dog I have. I told her "just a mutt'. So it really depends who's asking or what mood I am in.

If I were to say bulldog, then people would think I am talking about the English Bulldog most likely. So that term would not work well for me.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

I just want to say I have never heard anyone refer to APBTs as hounds or any other breeds except Blood hounds, and **** hounds.lol.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> I just want to say I have never heard anyone refer to APBTs as hounds or any other breeds except Blood hounds, and **** hounds.lol.


Any dogs that come from a shelter without knowing the history and or having the papers to prove purity you can basically just call it a mutt/hound.... pit mix, lab mix, GSD mix etc.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

K9Jessie said:


> I just want to say I have never heard anyone refer to APBTs as hounds or any other breeds except Blood hounds, and **** hounds.lol.


A good many of people who use their dogs for hunting will refer to any of their working dogs as hounds. :thumbsup: Hound is a general term for hunting dogs. So a good working APBT falls in that group. What a bound Grey hounds completely different from the two breeds you mentioned?


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

K9Jessie said:


> I just want to say I have never heard anyone refer to APBTs as hounds or any other breeds except Blood hounds, and **** hounds.lol.


I know! right? so many have it ass backwards and the confusion runs rampid still.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

K9Jessie said:


> I just want to say I have never heard anyone refer to APBTs as hounds or any other breeds except Blood hounds, and **** hounds.lol.


haha I know right. I prefer bull dog or mutt personally for my boy  All the same thing unpapered dogs that we love papers or not  Most everyone else call him a pit bull. Oh well keep spreading the knowledge t those wanting to listen is all we can do


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Any dogs that come from a shelter without knowing the history and or having the papers to prove purity you can basically just call it a mutt/hound.... pit mix, lab mix, GSD mix etc.


But what if the dog came from a breed specific rescue? Like a GSD rescue, but has no papers? I would say GSDs are easier to identify than a simple "pit mix" as that can be anything."


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> A good many of people who use their dogs for hunting will refer to any of their working dogs as hounds. :thumbsup: Hound is a general term for hunting dogs. So a good working APBT falls in that group. What a bound Grey hounds completely different from the two breeds you mentioned?


I can see that for hunting dogs.

I don't know why Grey hounds have the termn Hound in them. I think they fall under the "sight hound" category.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> haha I know right. I prefer bull dog or mutt personally for my boy  All the same thing unpapered dogs that we love papers or not  Most everyone else call him a pit bull. Oh well keep spreading the knowledge t those wanting to listen is all we can do


I would say Bully Mix if I were labeling the dogs such as for vet papers and things like that. I think mutt is cute and adorable. I have no idea why people get all up in arms when someone calls their maltipoo a mutt.lol.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

K9Jessie said:


> I would say Bully Mix if I were labeling the dogs such as for vet papers and things like that. I think mutt is cute and adorable. I have no idea why people get all up in arms when someone calls their maltipoo a mutt.lol.


nope I got a bull dog, a pit bull, a mutt, they all mean the same thing basically.  But to me a bully mix means it could have been a mix from American Bully lines since American Bully is a breed itself ya know? But hey whatever you wanna call my boy he is still a mutt without papers. Its all good.

Some rescues do have pure bred pups, no doubt. But they would have the papers, or the knowledge of how they were bred, to go with them. There are many specialized rescues that contain dogs of known and unknown heritage. Not arguing that point at all. but just because its breed specific doesn't mean its THAT breed in question. Shoot my friend got a Chi from a pit bull rescue lol. If they do not have the papers or know the parents, then its just a guessing game. No papers no history, the dog is a mutt or a pit bull or a bull dog. They all signify mix or unknown history.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Hound is often associated with hunting hounds though hound in fact, is just another way of saying dog. Context is all, generally speaking i will calling a working dog (protection, catch dog, herding, etc) a hound and a pet, show, etc a dog.. Though it makes zero difference, it is a way i have found useful for others to understand the language..

Unknown heritage is unknown heritage, mixes, mutts... Can all appear to be purebred to a T with some "luck".. A mutt is a known mix.. Or another way of saying you don't know.. You can't prove what you don't know and if your dog is an unknown, its impossible to know 100% what one is..

In terms of GSD's, the only GSD i find worthy of the name is one that can perform PP, Patrol or Police/Military function.. Show bred, pet bred seriously lacks the standard of which the breed exists.. A show GSD is just contradicting within itself.. Any forum or group for GSDs, you will find the argument 100 times over.. Show stock vs Working stock, function and ability vs registry standards.. If you must rely on someone else to tell you what kind of example of the breed of choice you are feeding, it says it all.. A hound can only define and prove to the best of its own abilities with guidance, training and human connection..


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> nope I got a bull dog, a pit bull, a mutt, they all mean the same thing basically.  But to me a bully mix means it could have been a mix from American Bully lines since American Bully is a breed itself ya know? But hey whatever you wanna call my boy he is still a mutt without papers. Its all good.
> 
> Some rescues do have pure bred pups, no doubt. But they would have the papers, or the knowledge of how they were bred, to go with them. There are many specialized rescues that contain dogs of known and unknown heritage. Not arguing that point at all. but just because its breed specific doesn't mean its THAT breed in question. Shoot my friend got a Chi from a pit bull rescue lol. If they do not have the papers or know the parents, then its just a guessing game. No papers no history, the dog is a mutt or a pit bull or a bull dog. They all signify mix or unknown history.


No, GSD rescues, or Lab rescues don't have the papers for majority of their purebred GSDs. Some do come with papers, but majority don't come in with papers as they are from BYBs. Of course Breed specific rescues tend to have dogs of kinds of breeds. A GSD rescue near me adopted out an Australian Shepherd recently, and before that a Grey Hound mix. But they primarily work and adopt out German Shepherds.

I don't think has to be a guessing game. Sometimes you can tell what the breed is by just looking at it. The shelter I volunteer for has 4 purebred GSDs, and couple GSD Mixes. How do we know? By looks, its obviously not a lab, nor is it a pitbull, nor is a bull dog, and behavior. Thats exactly what they are, a purebred with no history. But I wouldn't call this dog a German Shepherd Mix:









When you can clearly see his a purebred German Shepherd.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Hound is often associated with hunting hounds though hound in fact, is just another way of saying dog. Context is all, generally speaking i will calling a working dog (protection, catch dog, herding, etc) a hound and a pet, show, etc a dog.. Though it makes zero difference, it is a way i have found useful for others to understand the language..
> 
> Unknown heritage is unknown heritage, mixes, mutts... Can all appear to be purebred to a T with some "luck".. A mutt is a known mix.. Or another way of saying you don't know.. You can't prove what you don't know and if your dog is an unknown, its impossible to know 100% what one is..
> 
> In terms of GSD's, the only GSD i find worthy of the name is one that can perform PP, Patrol or Police/Military function.. Show bred, pet bred seriously lacks the standard of which the breed exists.. A show GSD is just contradicting within itself.. Any forum or group for GSDs, you will find the argument 100 times over.. Show stock vs Working stock, function and ability vs registry standards.. If you must rely on someone else to tell you what kind of example of the breed of choice you are feeding, it says it all.. A hound can only define and prove to the best of its own abilities with guidance, training and human connection..


Sorry, I know of a few show GSD breeders who work their dogs and show them as well I am pretty sure they breed German Shepherds, their dogs can work and some have gone on to be police dogs, dogs in the military, seeing eye dogs. What do you call all breed specific rescues? My dogs are German Shepherds, just not the best bred, and don't do PP, Patrol, or Police/Military, but they are German Shepherds, so what if they are pets? I have no interest in PP, nor am I police officer, nor am I in the military, but I have German Shepherds, yes they are my companions, but thats what I wanted, I don't have te money to go to a breeder(My parents got Molly for $25 from a BYB, and I won't do that again.) If I want a German Shepherd I will go find one at a GSD rescue, a GSD breeder(if I have the money) or find one in a shelter). Many responsible GSD breeders have puppies in the litter that can't do PP, or police/military work, but that doesn't mean they are NOT GSDs. My dogs were not bred for that, but they are GSDs. Plus, they use different breeds for PP, Patrol, Police/Military such as Mals, Dutchies, etc. So that itself is silly to say "Oh if doesn't do this its not that kind of breed".


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> Sorry, I know of a few show GSD breeders who work their dogs and show them as well I am pretty sure they breed German Shepherds, their dogs can work and some have gone on to be police dogs, dogs in the military, seeing eye dogs. What do you call all breed specific rescues? My dogs are German Shepherds, just not the best bred, and don't do PP, Patrol, or Police/Military, but they are German Shepherds. Plus, they use different breeds for PP, Patrol, Police/Military such as Mals, Dutchies, etc. So that itself is silly to say "Oh if doesn't do this its not that kind of breed".


Of course there are more than GSDs that can perform this, i happen to feed two. The point that i was making is that of a point very few understand outside the working aspect of things.. I believe in breed preservation and advancement, for hounds specifically created, perfected and utilized around working function (in this case, GSDs.. For this topic, APBTs) and because of this, i do not consider show stock or any subpar breeding one of the same as working stock..

Meaning; In the case of American Pit Bull Terriers, in the old days they were all Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven.. Much of this type of thought has since perished in the mind set of dog owners as purpose is not so much needed any longer with advancement of technology and science.. No one NEEDS a catch dog, strike dog, tree dog, etc.. (hunting) For example in these days as guns have improved greatly over the past century.. However, for those doggers involved heavily in those respected dogs that want to preserve the nature of which they were created.. Continue to do so.

A show bred APBT is just an AST, after all, this is how the AST came to be as at one point in time, they were in essence one of the same.. Until branching off from "performance type" to "show type" and now, you have a bulldog bred for the show ring...

This can be a very sore subject for many, no one wants to hear what they believe their dog is actually is not.. I do not know your dogs, i don't know how they are bred nor do i know anything about them other than seeing the very pictures you have posted.. I am just giving insight on what i believe and my view point based on how i was taught and have learned over the years..

There are those that believe the blood, the genetics, the standard is what defines the dog.. I believe this to be inaccurate and more or less a "new" way of thinking.

Also, don't get confused with the meaning of show bred.. Plenty of people both show AND work their dogs, for some they believe that proves to be bar none the highest of qualities to look for.. An all around-er that can do it all.. Theres valid points to this, however you will never find agreement community wide with this as its all in what you know, what your used to and what you honestly believe. BUT the term show bred implies that a dog is bred down from show ring winners and bred to registry standard as oppose to the standard of which the breed was specifically instilled to do.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

K9Jessie said:


> No, GSD rescues, or Lab rescues don't have the papers for majority of their purebred GSDs. Some do come with papers, but majority don't come in with papers as they are from BYBs. Of course Breed specific rescues tend to have dogs of kinds of breeds. A GSD rescue near me adopted out an Australian Shepherd recently, and before that a Grey Hound mix. But they primarily work and adopt out German Shepherds.
> 
> I don't think has to be a guessing game. Sometimes you can tell what the breed is by just looking at it. The shelter I volunteer for has 4 purebred GSDs, and couple GSD Mixes. How do we know? By looks, its obviously not a lab, nor is it a pitbull, nor is a bull dog, and behavior. Thats exactly what they are, a purebred with no history. But I wouldn't call this dog a German Shepherd Mix:
> 
> ...


I think we are kinda saying the same thing, but in reality just because you can make an educated case doesn't mean you KNOW its pure breed if you do not know parents lineage. I do not know GSD's but I am guessing all BYB are pretty much cut from the same crap no matter the breed. You can never assume anything unless you know the history. My boy is supposed to be an AmStaff, he looks like an American Staffodshire Terrier but for me to actively call him one and argue that he is not a mutt insulating to the Papered or proven dogs and their owners.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Of course there are more than GSDs that can perform this, i happen to own two. The point that i was making is that of a point very few understand outside the working aspect of things.. I believe in breed preservation and advancement, for hounds specifically created, perfected and utilized around working function (in this case, GSDs.. For this topic, APBTs) and because of this, i do not consider show stock or any subpar breeding one of the same as working stock..
> 
> Meaning; In the case of American Pit Bull Terriers, in the old days they were all Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven.. Much of this type of thought has since perished in the mind set of dog owners as purpose is not so much needed any longer with advancement of technology and science.. No one NEEDS a catch dog, strike dog, tree dog, etc.. (hunting) For example in these days as guns have improved greatly over the past century.. However, for those doggers involved heavily in those respected dogs that want to preserve the nature of which they were created.. Continue to do so.
> 
> ...


I agree very much the best stock should preserved and bred as they are the ones who are representing the breed. The dogs who have faults should not be bred. I think that is the issue. But then even the best pair from a responsible breeding will tend to produce pet quality dogs, and they will produce working quality dogs(those are the ones that should be preserved and bred). The ones who represent the breed the best should be used to keep the breed what it is supposed to do and make it better.

My dogs are pet quality, I have no idea what either was bred for, but they are spayed/neutered so they won't be adding to the gene pool as they don't need to and shouldn't be as they don't represent their breed the best.

Only the best of the breeds should be bred and preserved to help keep the breeds that we love they are supposed to be.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

K9Jessie said:


> I agree very much the best stock should preserved and bred as they are the ones who are representing the breed. The dogs who have faults should not be bred. I think that is the issue. But then even the best pair from a responsible breeding will tend to produce pet quality dogs, and they will produce working quality dogs(those are the ones that should be preserved and bred). The ones who represent the breed the best should be used to keep the breed what it is supposed to do and make it better.
> 
> My dogs are pet quality, I have no idea what either was bred for, but they are spayed/neutered so they won't be adding to the gene pool as they don't need to and shouldn't be as they don't represent their breed the best.
> 
> Only the best of the breeds should be bred and preserved to help keep the breeds that we love they are supposed to be.


:goodpost::clap::thumbsup:


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> I think we are kinda saying the same thing, but in reality just because you can make an educated case doesn't mean you KNOW its pure breed if you do not know parents lineage. I do not know GSD's but I am guessing all BYB are pretty much cut from the same crap no matter the breed. You can never assume anything unless you know the history. My boy is supposed to be an AmStaff, he looks like an American Staffodshire Terrier but for me to actively call him one and argue that he is not a mutt insulating to the Papered or proven dogs and their owners.


Yes I think we are, but papers shouldn't be the only way.

I would not call it an insult to paperped/proven dogs. I get compliments all the time from people who breed proven GSDs about how handsome and pretty my dogs are. I am not all in the know with American Staffordshire Terriers, but if he looks like one, they call him that. Be proud you own such a wonderful breed. I think a true responsible breeder of American Staffordshire Terrier would be happy to see someone like you being responsible and loving your dog. I think responsible breeders of any breed are happy to see many of the dogs that are of the same breed they have chosen being well cared for by responsible people. It shows you care about the breed as much as they do. I think they like seeing responsible dog owners like you and I. If I were an American Staffordshire Terrier breeder I would be happy to see a dog of a wonderful breed in good hands.

Anyone who finds it insulting that you call your dog a purebred even though he has no papers is not really a dog person, IMO.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

You cannot tell based on just appearance on what the breed is, mutts can look exactly like a purebred dog.. Especially to someone "untrained" or "uneducated" in said breeds..

Since you seem to follow the GSD world quite a bit, based on appearance what would you list these three dogs? Purebred? Mixes (if so what).. I know the answers, all might be mutts, one might, all might be purebred.. Just curious of what you would say..


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> You cannot tell based on just appearance on what the breed is, mutts can look exactly like a purebred dog.. Especially to someone "untrained" or "uneducated" in said breeds..
> 
> Since you seem to follow the GSD world quite a bit, based on appearance what would you list these three dogs? Purebred? Mixes (if so what).. I know the answers, all might be mutts, one might, all might be purebred.. Just curious of what you would say..


They are all German Shepherds. The first seems to be from Working lines, the second one looks to be of Working lines, or Showline or a mix of both or of Petlines.the last one looks to be West German Showlines. But all 3 look to be purebred GSDs to me.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> You cannot tell based on just appearance on what the breed is, mutts can look exactly like a purebred dog.. Especially to someone "untrained" or "uneducated" in said breeds..
> 
> Since you seem to follow the GSD world quite a bit, based on appearance what would you list these three dogs? Purebred? Mixes (if so what).. I know the answers, all might be mutts, one might, all might be purebred.. Just curious of what you would say..


How can this not look like a purebred GSD?:










Yes, he may not have papers, but it doesn't mean he is a mutt.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

And this was just to prove a point, in a small way that educated guesses are just that.. Guesses. I can see what your saying to an extent however you must understand, especially with already misconceptions, BSL, etc.. Its a deadly game of russian roulette when betting it all.. You may have a fairly good idea, but at the end of the day an unknown is an unknown..

The first hound is in fact a PFP2 GSD, the second is a dutch shepherd mutt where a stray got a hold of their DSD.. The stray in question was a 40 pound mutt thats coat looked like GSD but build and overall "appearance" was not.. so could be anything and the third dog was a yard accident between two hounds.. an Akita/GSD mix mated a Malinois..


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

KM very cool. See I thought the second one was the Pure bred, just shows you I know nothing about GSD lol



K9Jessie said:


> How can this not look like a purebred GSD?:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who said your dog doesn't look like a pure bred GSD? No one here that I read. What we are saying is since your dog is not known or papered its a mutt. That's what mutts are though by definition, unknown heritage. Mutt is not an insult, I am not sure why some people get offended or hurt by others calling their unpapered dogs mutts, but its not meant to be an insult its just meant to explain your dog is not papered, lol. Why is it a problem to call him a mutt, if he isn't papered just because he looks like other dogs that have papers and looks like some that do not have papers? Whats wrong with it being called a mutt, lol

We might just need to agree to disagree on this one girl lol


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> And this was just to prove a point, in a small way that educated guesses are just that.. Guesses. I can see what your saying to an extent however you must understand, especially with already misconceptions, BSL, etc.. Its a deadly game of russian roulette when betting it all.. You may have a fairly good idea, but at the end of the day an unknown is an unknown..
> 
> The first hound is in fact a PFP2 GSD, the second is a dutch shepherd mutt where a stray got a hold of their DSD.. The stray in question was a 40 pound mutt thats coat looked like GSD but build and overall "appearance" was not.. so could be anything and the third dog was a yard accident between two hounds.. an Akita/GSD mix mated a Malinois..


I can believe the first picture. But the second looks nothing like a Dutch Shepherd, and the 3rd looks nothing like an Akita nor does look anything like a Malinois. The 3rd one looks to be a bit overweight, but I see nothing but GSD in all these photos.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

K9Jessie said:


> I can believe the first picture. But the second looks nothing like a Dutch Shepherd, and the 3rd looks nothing like an Akita nor does look anything like a Malinois. The 3rd one looks to be a bit overweight, but I see nothing but GSD in all these photos.


 Amazing right! Just cause it looks EXACTLY like a pure bred dog doesn't always mean that it is anything more than a mutt. Pretty and fluffy mutts, but still a mutt


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> KM whats the answers!!!! lol
> 
> Who said your dog doesn't look like a pure bred GSD? No one here that I read. What we are saying is since your dog is not known or papered its a mutt. That's what mutts are though by definition, unknown heritage. Mutt is not an insult, I am not sure why some people get offended or hurt by others calling their unpapered dogs mutts, but its not meant to be an insult its just meant to explain your dog is not papered, lol. Why is it a problem to call him a mutt, if he isn't papered just because he looks like other dogs that have papers and looks like some that do not have papers? Whats wrong with it being called a mutt, lol
> 
> We might just need to agree to disagree on this one girl lol


That dog I posted in this thread isn't my dog, but both this dog and my dog are purebreds.

The reason he isn't a mutt is because he isn't. He is a purebred GSD. A mutt is a mixed breed dog, not a purebred. Thats what I found when I googled the word mutt. Actually I got this: mutt - an inferior dog or one of mixed breed, or basically a mixed breed dog. As much as I been involved with dogs, mutt meant mixed breed. To me in this instance, just because a dog doesn't have papers it means its inferior. You may mean well, but thats how I am seeing it. Papers are usually for breeding, showing or titling purposes. My dogs are never going to be bred, never going to be shown nor titled, so I have no need for papers.

Maybe because they feel like their dog is being called inferior or not as good as a "papered" dog. Papers are just that, papers. The just show the dog's breeding history. So I am assuming we should call all the breed specific rescues and purebreds in shelters "Mutts" on their kennel papers when people are looking at them at the rescue and shelters? He GSD with no papers, I saw my other dog's parents, so I know she is purebred, she has no papers. But I know my dogs are purebred dogs. I am not offended, but I just see mutt as describing a mixed breed dog, like maltipoos, or Goldendoodles. I will refer to my dogs as German Shepherds, don't like it get over it.

To me mutt=mixed breed.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> Amazing right! Just cause it looks EXACTLY like a pure bred dog doesn't always mean that it is anything more than a mutt. Pretty and fluffy mutts, but still a mutt


Thats because it is.

I don't believe in lying because of BSL. Its not right to lie for insurance purposes. I believe lying doesn't help fight breed prejudice.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> I can believe the first picture. But the second looks nothing like a Dutch Shepherd, and the 3rd looks nothing like an Akita nor does look anything like a Malinois. The 3rd one looks to be a bit overweight, but I see nothing but GSD in all these photos.


Genetics can be deceiving.. Only one is a GSD everything else are mutts.. Not believing (or believing) doesn't automatically make it true..

I am asked on a near daily basis if i breed my "Pit Bulls" and how great looking "Pit Bulls" i have.. Bandogs, mid 60s and mid to upper 90s as to weight.. You take 45 pound APBT out and about and i can bet nearly all will either say NO way, you have a mutt or that dog is under weight.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

K9Jessie said:


> I can believe the first picture. But the second looks nothing like a Dutch Shepherd, and the 3rd looks nothing like an Akita nor does look anything like a Malinois. The 3rd one looks to be a bit overweight, but I see nothing but GSD in all these photos.


That is the point you can not tell by looks alone what a dog is you have to know where it came from. Why is it so hard to understand. Can you look at a person and know 100% their ethnic origin? Seems like common sense to me if their is no evidence then you can't know for sure. But obviously not common at all.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Genetics can be deceiving.. Only one is a GSD everything else are mutts.. Not believing (or believing) doesn't automatically make it true..
> 
> I am asked on a near daily basis if i breed my "Pit Bulls" and how great looking "Pit Bulls" i have.. Bandogs, mid 60s and mid to upper 90s as to weight.. You take 45 pound APBT out and about and i can bet nearly all will either say NO way, you have a mutt or that dog is under weight.


Mutts because they have no papers right? To me its ridiculous. Sometimes people only have looks to go by and you have to work with only that.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

You can not go by looks. Geez!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Believe me, I had a hard time believing it as well. had the same thoughts, why would I want to lie, my dog is obviously a pit bull calling it a mutt would make people think I am untrustworthy. But mutt just means dog. or an idiot, lol. Kinda funny  but its true! I a mutt could have only 1 breed or many breeds according to this definition, its just another word.

*mutt*  noun Slang .
1.a dog, especially a *mongrel*.
2.a stupid or foolish person; simpleton.

now whats a mongrel?
mon·grel   [muhng-gruhl, mong-] noun
1.a dog of mixed or *indeterminate breed.*
2.any animal or plant resulting from the crossing of different breeds or varieties.
3.any cross between different things, especially if inharmonious or indiscriminate.

Whats Indeterminate?
in·de·ter·mi·nate   [in-di-tur-muh-nit] adjective
1.not determinate; not precisely fixed in extent; indefinite; uncertain.
2.not clear; vague.
3.not established.
4.not settled or decided.

No one is lying about their dogs when they say "mutt" and it looks like a particular breed. People are lying when they say the dog looks like a pure bred and do not have history or papers to back it up...


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> That is the point you can not tell by looks alone what a dog is you have to know where it came from. Why is it so hard to understand. Can you look at a person and know 100% their ethnic origin? Seems like common sense to me if their is no evidence then you can't know for sure. But obviously not common at all.


The reason you can't tell many people's ethnic origin because there are so many different ethnic backgrounds.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

:goodpost::goodpost:


ames said:


> Believe me, I had a hard time believing it as well. had the same thoughts, why would I want to lie, my dog is obviously a pit bull calling it a mutt would make people think I am untrustworthy. But mutt just means dog. or an idiot, lol. Kinda funny  but its true! I a mutt could have only 1 breed or many breeds according to this definition, its just another word.
> 
> mutt
> noun Slang .
> ...


*That is just Grea!!*


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> You can not go by looks. Geez!


Sorry but in some cases you do, in cases of the dogs from shelters and rescues. Not all them have papers, and sometimes you have to go by just looks.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

The reason you can not tell a non papered dogs origin is because their are way to many dogs in the world and many in the classes that look similar. Calling a dog that has unproven origin is insulting to people who spend the time and money to work a line that can be traced back for generations.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> Mutts because they have no papers right? To me its ridiculous. Sometimes people only have looks to go by and you have to work with only that.


Mutts because the owners know thats what they are.. I could care less about papers, i've only fed one hound in my years that had papers.. It did nothing but collect dust.. Hand written peds is a different story, proper documentation is important.. In terms of the APBT (and other working breeds) it is not the blood nor the paper that defines the hound rather the function, ability..Proven..

To look at a dog and say, oh well its this or that.. Well, you said it yourself you are making these assumptions based on looks alone.. Unless you believe appearance defines what a dog is, its a bit of a stretch to say the least..


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> Believe me, I had a hard time believing it as well. had the same thoughts, why would I want to lie, my dog is obviously a pit bull calling it a mutt would make people think I am untrustworthy. But mutt just means dog. or an idiot, lol. Kinda funny  but its true! I a mutt could have only 1 breed or many breeds according to this definition, its just another word.
> 
> *mutt*  noun Slang .
> 1.a dog, especially a *mongrel*.
> ...


So you are calling me a liar? Gee thanks. I think I know what my dogs are by doing some research on the breed. But thanks for calling me a liar because I say my dogs look pure and I don't have papers. I believe my dogs are German Shepherds as I have talked to many people who own GSDs and breeders of GSDs and I am not lying.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> The reason you can not tell a non papered dogs origin is because their are way to many dogs in the world and many in the classes that look similar. Calling a dog that has unproven origin is insulting to people who spend the time and money to work a line that can be traced back for generations.


I don't know many dogs that look exactly like GSDs such as in appearence, temperament, color, etc.

Sorry to all the GSD breeders out there that I call my unproven dogs GSDs. It shouldn't be insulting to call my dog what it is.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Mutts because the owners know thats what they are.. I could care less about papers, i've only fed one hound in my years that had papers.. It did nothing but collect dust.. Hand written peds is a different story, proper documentation is important.. In terms of the APBT (and other working breeds) it is not the blood nor the paper that defines the hound rather the function, ability..Proven..
> 
> To look at a dog and say, oh well its this or that.. Well, you said it yourself you are making these assumptions based on looks alone.. Unless you believe appearance defines what a dog is, its a bit of a stretch to say the least..


Or unless you know a bit about the breed, talked to others who own it and breeders of that breed.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Jessie, can you tell me which one of these is an APBT or what you would think if at the shelter? (not to be an ass, again just interested)


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Jessie, can you tell me which one of these is an APBT or what you would think if at the shelter? (not to be an ass, again just interested)


Probably the third and fourth one. But bully breeds and some APBT look alot alike. There are very few breeds who don't look like GSDs.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

K9Jessie said:


> Or unless you know a bit about the breed, talked to others who own it and breeders of that breed.


Look i am sorry to say ma'am but you are wrong and the people you know in the breed well probably just being nice. I work my APBT in a lil SCH and the men I know that have GSD would tell you the same you have no idea where those dogs cam from, yes probably have a great dealof GSD in them. *But you will never know for sure.* They are nice looking dogs and people who rescue do a great thing, but if you want a pure bred dog no ???'s asked go get one from proven lines breed with a true history.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> Probably the third and fourth one. But bully breeds and some APBT look alot alike. There are very few breeds who don't look like GSDs.


1. American Bully 2. Gr Ch Barracuda (APBT) 3. Mutt 4. American Staffordshire Terrier


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> Look i am sorry to say ma'am but you are wrong and the people you know in the breed well probably just being nice. I work my APBT in a lil SCH and the men I know that have GSD would tell you the same you have no idea where those dogs cam from, yes probably have a great dealof GSD in them. *But you will never know for sure.* They are nice looking dogs and people who rescue do a great thing, but if you want a pure bred dog no ???'s asked go get one from proven lines breed with a true history.


No I am afraid they are not just being nice. Because I even asked many times, and still got GSD. If I want a purebred I will get one from a breed specific rescue or a breeder. Don't like it that I call my dogs purebreds? Get over it. I can call them that if I feel like it.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

[COLOR="DarkRed"Haha okay I will let you run around in your own little world where fact means nothing  [/COLOR]


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> So you are calling me a liar? Gee thanks. I think I know what my dogs are by doing some research on the breed. But thanks for calling me a liar because I say my dogs look pure and I don't have papers. I believe my dogs are German Shepherds as I have talked to many people who own GSDs and breeders of GSDs and I am not lying.


Ames is good people and I don't think she is calling you a liar perse' but as an in general statement. Like me saying I have an APBT when in fact I have a pitterstaff or scatterbred bitch who is papered and UKC registered. I was going to show but decided otherwise and now I just work my girl and give her an outlet to stimulate her both mentally and physically so she has some sort of purpose. If people on your GSD forums want to call your shelter looking GSD dog a pure bred then I think I would take it with a grain of salt because some people will just tell you what you want to hear or you only hear what you want to hear. Please don't take me as coming off rude because you can't read tone through the computer  I have an acquaintance that has a husky/GSD mix that looks exactly like your pure bred black and tan GSD. Same look, curly tail but known background and an oops litter. I'm not saying your black and tan is a mix but just giving you an idea of how supposed "pure bred" dogs can resemble an actual mixed one.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

In the case of GSDs, they could be a mix if you don't know where they are coming from but sometimes you can tell it's definitely a GSD.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Ames is good people and I don't think she is calling you a liar perse' but as an in general statement. Like me saying I have an APBT when in fact I have a pitterstaff or scatterbred bitch who is papered and UKC registered. I was going to show but decided otherwise and now I just work my girl and give her an outlet to stimulate her both mentally and physically so she has some sort of purpose. If people on your GSD forums want to call your shelter looking GSD dog a pure bred then I think I would take it with a grain of salt because some people will just tell you what you want to hear or you only hear what you want to hear. Please don't take me as coming off rude because you can't read tone through the computer  I have an acquaintance that has a husky/GSD mix that looks exactly like your pure bred black and tan GSD. Same look, curly tail but known background and an oops litter. I'm not saying your black and tan is a mix but just giving you an idea of how supposed "pure bred" dogs can resemble an actual mixed one.


Actually no, I wanted them to tell me if he was mixed or not. I even asked on a all breed dog forum, all I got was GSD. I am wanting to be told what I want to read nor am I only reading what I want to hear. I will take people who know GSDs and breed them responsibly more seriously.

Papers are not everything. If someone wants to call their dog a purebred that they got from a breed specific rescue and it looks EXACTLY like a certain breed that the breed rescue had then they can call it that.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Lets try and get this back on APBT/rescues/adopt/mutt/etc, theres no need for this thread to be locked over talking about a completely different breed.. Theres good information on this thread that doesnt need to be wasted a way otherwise.


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## milopup (Feb 8, 2012)

Who efing cares KM...I think you should get a life!


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

milopup said:


> Who efing cares KM...I think you should get a life!


Wow for 1 post how polite.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> In the case of GSDs, they could be a mix if you don't know where they are coming from but sometimes you can tell it's definitely a GSD.


You can make an educated guess that it's a pure bred dog but in the end it's just a guess. Without seeing the parents and going back generations in the dog in questions pedigree you really will never know. I mean if you want to call your shelter dog a GSD and not a GSD mix by all means go ahead. At the end of the day it's your dog and your the one feeding it. As long as they are a great representation of the breed then I'm not going to lose sleep over it


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

milopup said:


> Who efing cares KM...I think you should get a life!


LOL! Way to make an entrance and go out with a bang when you get the :stick:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I will openly ask mods to clean this up a bit to get it back on track. Milo, i have a great life thank you. LOL


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> You can make an educated guess that it's a pure bred dog but in the end it's just a guess. Without seeing the parents and going back generations in the dog in questions pedigree you really will never know. I mean if you want to call your shelter dog a GSD and not a GSD mix by all means go ahead. At the end of the day it's your dog and your the one feeding it. *As long as they are a great representation of the breed* then I'm not going to lose sleep over it


Yes, and its an educated guess. I would much rather trust my own guess than someone from homeowner's insurance.

The bolded is very important. My dogs are good representations, but not good enough to be bred and added to the gene pool. But good representations. I also don't think lying to insurances about your dog's breed is good, you can get in trouble for it. I am not saying anyone here has done it, but lying about your dog's breed isn't a good idea.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

KM....I don't see anything wrong with any post on this thread personally. I think we have all been very respectable in our posts and nobody has gotten there panties in a bunch. K9jessie definitely has an open mind as well as some knowledge and has been taking everything pretty good IMO.  I gave her some REP!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

K9Jessie said:


> The reason you can't tell many people's ethnic origin because there are so many different ethnic backgrounds.


ARE YOU SERIOUS!!???? yes there are hundreds if not thousands of ethnic backgrounds in the world but you do realize how many dog breeds there actually are?? Each year, the American Kennel Club registers more than a million purebred dogs of 150 breeds and varieties of dogs. The United Kennel Club registers more than 200 breeds, and worldwide, about 400 breeds are recognized. Tons of dogs could be a mixture of breeds and only take after their mother, or father just like some could come out as a mix of both.



K9Jessie said:


> So you are calling me a liar? Gee thanks. I think I know what my dogs are by doing some research on the breed. But thanks for calling me a liar because I say my dogs look pure and I don't have papers. I believe my dogs are German Shepherds as I have talked to many people who own GSDs and breeders of GSDs and I am not lying.


Really that's all you took from that post? That I called you a liar? really? lol And I did not, I said people who call their dogs pure when they are not are liars. If that is you, I am not trying to insult you, if you want to be dishonest and call your dog a pure bred, so be it. Nothing I or anyone can do about it but try and educate you.



K9Jessie said:


> I don't know many dogs that look exactly like GSDs such as in appearence, temperament, color, etc.
> 
> Sorry to all the GSD breeders out there that I call my unproven dogs GSDs. It shouldn't be insulting to call my dog what it is.


So if someone spends $5k on a proven champion bred line of dogs they should not care if its compared to your paperless dog? All the work and research they put into getting a pure bred champion and you feel its equal to your paperless rescue, how is that not offensive?



K9Jessie said:


> No I am afraid they are not just being nice. Because I even asked many times, and still got GSD. If I want a purebred I will get one from a breed specific rescue or a breeder. Don't like it that I call my dogs purebreds? Get over it. I can call them that if I feel like it.


You can call it a Husky for all I care, we are just trying to help you understand. Nothing to get over we see many people who refuse to understand or accept the truth, no biggie



Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Ames is good people and I don't think she is calling you a liar perse' but as an in general statement. Like me saying I have an APBT when in fact I have a pitterstaff or scatterbred bitch who is papered and UKC registered. I was going to show but decided otherwise and now I just work my girl and give her an outlet to stimulate her both mentally and physically so she has some sort of purpose. If people on your GSD forums want to call your shelter looking GSD dog a pure bred then I think I would take it with a grain of salt because some people will just tell you what you want to hear or you only hear what you want to hear. Please don't take me as coming off rude because you can't read tone through the computer  I have an acquaintance that has a husky/GSD mix that looks exactly like your pure bred black and tan GSD. Same look, curly tail but known background and an oops litter. I'm not saying your black and tan is a mix but just giving you an idea of how supposed "pure bred" dogs can resemble an actual mixed one.


thanks and exactly all I am trying to say...



K9Jessie said:


> Actually no, I wanted them to tell me if he was mixed or not. I even asked on a all breed dog forum, all I got was GSD. I am wanting to be told what I want to read nor am I only reading what I want to hear. I will take people who know GSDs and breed them responsibly more seriously.
> 
> Papers are not everything. If someone wants to call their dog a purebred that they got from a breed specific rescue and it looks EXACTLY like a certain breed that the breed rescue had then they can call it that.


How about you ask them if they hold their opinions the same for rescues or shelter dogs without papers as they would one that came with papers (and many breed specific rescues do have papered dogs) instead of just asking what they think of your dog. I think its 2 separate arguments actually. IF it COULD be a pure bred, or is it IS a pure bred. The way you ask the question might be why you are getting an answer that goes against what we are trying to get you to accept.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> KM....I don't see anything wrong with any post on this thread personally. I think we have all been very respectable in our posts and nobody has gotten there panties in a bunch. K9jessie definitely has an open mind as well as some knowledge and has been taking everything pretty good IMO.  I gave her some REP!


Yeah, just off topic really.. I dont think many people want to view this thread expecting a few pages of GSD talk.. LOL


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> ARE YOU SERIOUS!!???? yes there are hundreds if not thousands of ethnic backgrounds in the world but you do realize how many dog breeds there actually are?? Each year, the American Kennel Club registers more than a million purebred dogs of 150 breeds and varieties of dogs. The United Kennel Club registers more than 200 breeds, and worldwide, about 400 breeds are recognized. Tons of dogs could be a mixture of breeds and only take after their mother, or father just like some could come out as a mix of both.
> 
> No I am not trying to insult you, if you want to be dishonest and call your dog a pure bred, so be it. Nothing I or anyone can do about it but try and educate you. I am sorry if my words seemed harsh, I am just trying to get you to understand.
> 
> ...


For the first ok.

For the second. I am not being dishonest. My dogs are what they are. I am not going to lie about their breed especially for insurance purposes since they are on the BSL's hitlist. So how am I being dishonest? They both resemble GSDs in many ways, I have read up and talked to people who own and breed GSDs and formed an educated guess.

For the third: That is just downright right rude. You pretty much called my dogs worthless because they have no papers and any dog that comes from a 
shelter worthless. I am not comparing them I am not saying they are just as good as a Sch 3 titled dog or a Police dog, because I know my dogs can't do that. But that doesn't mean I can't call them German Shepherds. If I want to call them purebreds I can, but doesn't make them worthless.How is what you just said not offensive?

For the fourth. What truth? I understand where you are coming from, but I am not lying, I know what I think my dog is. Papers are just that, papers.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Hypothetically:

If you have two, untitled papered parents that are not "gekoered" (which means that the pups won't get papers) and these two papered dogs have a litter, you know the parents, you know the litter but none of the pups will get papers because the parents have not been titled nor did they go through the breed survey/evaluation. 

Are these puppies mutts just because they have no papers?


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> Yes, and its an educated guess. I would much rather trust my own guess than someone from homeowner's insurance.
> 
> The bolded is very important. My dogs are good representations, but not good enough to be bred and added to the gene pool. But good representations. I also don't think lying to insurances about your dog's breed is good, you can get in trouble for it. I am not saying anyone here has done it, but lying about your dog's breed isn't a good idea.


Honestly, I know ALOT of people who have to lie about what they own so there dog doesn't end up being a shelter statistic or PTS. I had an insurance representative inquire about my GSD about ten years ago when we were renewing our policy. They said do you have a dog....I said yes, a GSD... and he responds "well, does it have wolf in it"??? WTF really? I said dude....all dogs descend from wolves LOL! Insurance companies are just as clueless as your average uneducated "pet owner".


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> ARE YOU SERIOUS!!???? yes there are hundreds if not thousands of ethnic backgrounds in the world but you do realize how many dog breeds there actually are?? Each year, the American Kennel Club registers more than a million purebred dogs of 150 breeds and varieties of dogs. The United Kennel Club registers more than 200 breeds, and worldwide, about 400 breeds are recognized. Tons of dogs could be a mixture of breeds and only take after their mother, or father just like some could come out as a mix of both.
> 
> Really that's all you took from that post? That I called you a liar? really? lol And I did not, I said people who call their dogs pure when they are not are liars. If that is you, I am not trying to insult you, if you want to be dishonest and call your dog a pure bred, so be it. Nothing I or anyone can do about it but try and educate you.
> 
> ...


It seems you just edited as I didn't see it earlier.

I know that many breed specific rescues have papered dogs! I said that many times! They would hold the same for paperless dogs too! Many people come on the GSD forum if there GSD that they rescued is purebred or not. And many times it is. What are you trying to get me to accept? If I see a dog that looks to be a purebred I will assume its a purebred. Many breeds like bully breed may be harder to tell.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Honestly, I know ALOT of people who have to lie about what they own so there dog doesn't end up being a shelter statistic or PTS. I had an insurance representative inquire about my GSD about ten years ago when we were renewing our policy. They said do you have a dog....I said yes, a GSD... and he responds "well, does it have wolf in it"??? WTF really? I said dude....all dogs descend from wolves LOL! Insurance companies are just as clueless as your average uneducated "pet owner".


We have USAA. No issues getting homeowners and liability insurance with them an our GSD's. 

They came, took pictures, asked about their age, that was that.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Honestly, I know ALOT of people who have to lie about what they own so there dog doesn't end up being a shelter statistic or PTS. I had an insurance representative inquire about my GSD about ten years ago when we were renewing our policy. They said do you have a dog....I said yes, a GSD... and he responds "well, does it have wolf in it"??? WTF really? I said dude....all dogs descend from wolves LOL! Insurance companies are just as clueless as your average uneducated "pet owner".


What?! I hear that the wolf comment alot! Some of my family think my dog is part wolf. I am like "Noo!"

Thats why I try and become educated about breeds and not lie about my dog's breed so I can show my dog's breed isn't mean or vicious.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Hypothetically:
> 
> If you have two, untitled papered parents that are not "gekoered" (which means that the pups won't get papers) and these two papered dogs have a litter, you know the parents, you know the litter but none of the pups will get papers because the parents have not been titled nor did they go through the breed survey/evaluation.
> 
> Are these puppies mutts just because they have no papers?


Mutts depending on who you ask...yes. But they are just pups bred for no good reason other than pure ignorance and not doing the breed any favors as far as bettering the breed goes. Just a typical Back yard breeder with no real purpose other than breeding because they can. It doesn't take a genius to throw a male and a female together and make $$$$. It's just pure


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> We have USAA. No issues getting homeowners and liability insurance with them an our GSD's.
> 
> They came, took pictures, asked about their age, that was that.


But...do they cover pit bull or bully breeds.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Mutts depending on who you ask...yes. But they are just pups bred for no good reason other than pure ignorance and not doing the breed any favors as far as bettering the breed goes. Just a typical Back yard breeder with no real purpose other than breeding because they can. It doesn't take a genius to throw a male and a female together and make $$$$. It's just pure


So what would you call all those Malinois breeders that solely breed for the police and the military? A friend of mine is looking for a breeder that breeds registered Mals. The majority however doesn't breed registered dogs. They are no BYB's by any means, just don't care much about the papers. Their dogs are well cared for, they are worked, they care about the working aspects and those dogs primarily go to the police and one breeder is a cop himself.

Still BYB?


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> But...do they cover pit bull or bully breeds.


As far as I know, they do not have a BSL but I will look into it.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Hypothetically:
> 
> If you have two, untitled papered parents that are not "gekoered" (which means that the pups won't get papers) and these two papered dogs have a litter, you know the parents, you know the litter but none of the pups will get papers because the parents have not been titled nor did they go through the breed survey/evaluation.
> 
> Are these puppies mutts just because they have no papers?


that's my situation exactly. parents are papered, but I never got them so I don't know if I was lied too or if the dog really is papered, but if I knew the history I would consider it a pure bred. Since I do not know my dogs history other than the parents, I call my boy a mutt or a bull dog.



KMdogs said:


> Yeah, just off topic really.. I dont think many people want to view this thread expecting a few pages of GSD talk.. LOL


agreed take all these and merge them with the other thread to get this back, but I also think the same applies for all dogs with the BSL target on their backs, but the repeating in different ways to get her to accept what we are saying is fact is what we can do without. Point made, ignored or not accepted many times.



K9Jessie said:


> For the third: That is just downright right rude. You pretty much called my dogs worthless because they have no papers and any dog that comes from a
> shelter worthless. I am not comparing them I am not saying they are just as good as a Sch 3 titled dog or a Police dog, because I know my dogs can't do that. But that doesn't mean I can't call them German Shepherds. If I want to call them purebreds I can, but doesn't make them worthless.How is what you just said not offensive?


Its not meant to be offensive, it was mean to explain why its disrespectful to call a paperless or unknown history a purebred dog! I have dog I rescued who is also a mutt I feel I am able to speak openly and honestly about it. I am not being rude, I am being honest. My dog is better than any paper or title, he is the best dog in the world and better than everyone else's dogs and dare to anyone to say otherwise to me! I maybe sightly biased of course, my sister will only concede to him being the best dog on Dee Road. Oh well can't win them all, lol But for me to call my boy am Amstaff to anyone who has invested time and money in creating a championship line of AmStaff dogs, its disrespectful of me! Doesn't mean their dogs are better than my dog, NEVER did I say that.

There are many people who have handwritten pure dogs or hung papers on non pure bred dogs. Papers don't make it pure, KNOWING the HISTORY where the dog came from makes it pure.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Yeah, just off topic really.. I dont think many people want to view this thread expecting a few pages of GSD talk.. LOL


LOL! I hear ya but the girl owns GSD's and she is wanting to learn about the APBT so they will gain knowledge on both breeds LOL!


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> LOL! I hear ya but the girl owns GSD's and she is wanting to learn about the APBT so they will gain knowledge on both breeds LOL!


Nothing wrong in learning and comparing traits of the two breeds. Each breed has it's cons an pro's and it's only natural to compare and talk about it if that is all you know. :cheers:


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> that's my situation exactly. parents are papered, but I never got them so I don't know if I was lied too or if the dog really is papered, but if I knew the history I would consider it a pure bred. Since I do not know my dogs history other than the parents, I call my boy a mutt or a bull dog.
> 
> agreed take all these and merge them with the other thread to get this back, but I also think the same applies for all dogs with the BSL target on their backs, but the repeating in different ways to get her to accept what we are saying is fact is what we can do without. Point made, ignored or not accepted many times.
> 
> ...


I still fail to see it at disrespectful to other GSD people who have papered GSDs to call mine GSDs? I still don't see how your opinion is fact?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Drei Raeuber said:


> We have USAA. No issues getting homeowners and liability insurance with them an our GSD's.
> 
> They came, took pictures, asked about their age, that was that.


Still pure they are not from questionable lineage. Allot of dogmen use hand written ped and choose not to register with a registry. It is all good as along as it is known where they come from. Not the same with a rescue dog.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Nothing wrong in learning and comparing traits of the two breeds. Each breed has it's cons an pro's and it's only natural to compare and talk about it if that is all you know. :cheers:


GSD's are my first love and this is my first bully breed that I've owned but have owned dogs for many years including an ACD. All the GSD's we had were working K9's with the police from East German lines. My grandfather was an officer so as a child I grew up knowing nothing but GSD's  I need to re-familiarize myself with the breed because I may dive in and get a working bred dog in the future to work in schutzhund. I have never liked the American bred dogs


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

K9Jessie said:


> I still fail to see it at disrespectful to other GSD people who have papered GSDs to call mine GSDs? I still don't see how your opinion is fact?


did you not understand my example its aboutt research time and money that you didnt spend that they did spend to get the exact dog they wanted, not one they were LUCKY to find as you were with your great rescue?

Opinions are not facts, but what we are ALL telling you IS a fact they are not opinions, lol. An opinion is my dog is better than your cat. Not my dog is a mutt, or how I know what a mutt is or isnt. THAT is a fact!


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> GSD's are my first love and this is my first bully breed that I've owned but have owned dogs for many years including an ACD. All the GSD's we had were working K9's with the police from East German lines. My grandfather was an officer so as a child I grew up knowing nothing but GSD's  I need to re-familiarize myself with the breed because I may dive in and get a working bred dog in the future to work in schutzhund. I have never liked the American bred dogs


There are great dogs from Eastern lineage that come from great breeders here in the US. And those breeders tend to get their breeding dogs from overseas. Unless you are talking about American Showlines, well then I know of a breeder whose American lines can work such as herding. One of her dogs is 1/4 DDR.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> did you not understand my example its aboutt research time and money that you didnt spend that they did spend to get the exact dog they wanted, not one they were LUCKY to find as you were with your great rescue?
> 
> Opinions are not facts, but what we are ALL telling you IS a fact they are not opinions, lol. An opinion is my dog is better than your cat. Not my dog is a mutt, or how I know what a mutt is or isnt. THAT is a fact!


Well the truth is I didn't want a dog from a breeder and I don't have alot of money to spend. I wanted to adopt a GSD from a shelter and I did. So I got what I wanted.

What fact? That only papered dogs are purebreds? Kind of silly if you ask me. And I don't have a cat.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> GSD's are my first love and this is my first bully breed that I've owned but have owned dogs for many years including an ACD. All the GSD's we had were working K9's with the police from East German lines. My grandfather was an officer so as a child I grew up knowing nothing but GSD's  I need to re-familiarize myself with the breed because I may dive in and get a working bred dog in the future to work in schutzhund. I have never liked the American bred dogs


Yeah most of the guys I do SCH with got their original working stock from overseas. And occasionally will get a new from over to cross into the lines they have work to produce.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

That is the one thing I worry about and why I am so hesitant with the Bullies. If we ever go back to Germany we can't take a Pit Bull with us. Pit Bulls, even mixes can't be imported to Germany. And that would really suck to leave a dog behind just because of BSL.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> So what would you call all those Malinois breeders that solely breed for the police and the military? A friend of mine is looking for a breeder that breeds registered Mals. The majority however doesn't breed registered dogs. They are no BYB's by any means, just don't care much about the papers. Their dogs are well cared for, they are worked, they care about the working aspects and those dogs primarily go to the police and one breeder is a cop himself.
> 
> Still BYB?


Well, I didn't realize we were talking about working dogs and just took it as an in general question. We get lots of BYB's on here breeding APBT just to breed and for no purpose. The majority of people I know that have working bred GSDs, Dutch shepherds, and Malinois that are active in French ring and schutzhund have papers on the dogs they own or at least something giving the information of how there dogs were bred from generations back. I never realized that some breeders could careless about papers on working stock but I'm still learning. I always seem to hear on here that if a dog doesn't have papers (first and foremost), working titles, or show titles then a dog isn't breed worthy until it is proven. I always assumed that a breeding was most valuable with papers and history of pedigree/lineage as well as the actual function or working ability the dogs accomplished. I never thought papers were actually worthless with working breeds.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Well, I didn't realize we were talking about working dogs and just took it as an in general question. We get lots of BYB's on here breeding APBT just to breed and for no purpose. The majority of people I know that have working bred GSDs, Dutch shepherds, and Malinois that are active in French ring and schutzhund have papers on the dogs they own or at least something giving the information of how there dogs were bred from generations back. I never realized that some breeders could careless about papers on working stock but I'm still learning. I always seem to hear on here that if a dog doesn't have papers (first and foremost), working titles, or show titles then a dog isn't breed worthy until it is proven. I always assumed that a breeding was most valuable with papers and history of pedigree/lineage as well as the actual function or working ability the dogs accomplished. I never thought papers were actually worthless with working breeds.


I did not know that either until recently an to be honest I don't know how to feel about those breeders, breeding without registration. If you put that much effort into a breed you might as well register them, right?

Everybody in SchH I know has either a purebred from overseas or AKC/USC registered dog so it was pretty much news to me too. It took her quite a while to find the right breeder from where she gets a puppy from. All breeders had been suggested by her PoliceK9 friends and apparently they could care less about papers.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Well, I didn't realize we were talking about working dogs and just took it as an in general question. We get lots of BYB's on here breeding APBT just to breed and for no purpose. The majority of people I know that have working bred GSDs, Dutch shepherds, and Malinois that are active in French ring and schutzhund have papers on the dogs they own or at least something giving the information of how there dogs were bred from generations back. I never realized that some breeders could careless about papers on working stock but I'm still learning. I always seem to hear on here that if a dog doesn't have papers (first and foremost), working titles, or show titles then a dog isn't breed worthy until it is proven. I always assumed that a breeding was most valuable with papers and history of pedigree/lineage as well as the actual function or working ability the dogs accomplished. I never thought papers were actually worthless with working breeds.


Papers are good, but in some cases for temperaments, drives, aggression, and so on. Certain lines may carry certain genes more dominately than others.

But in cases like the military they a very selective breeding program so the dogs are well known that they don't need papers. I think thats how it goes.lol


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Drei Raeuber said:


> I did not know that either until recently an to be honest I don't know how to feel about those breeders, breeding without registration. If you put that much effort into a breed you might as well register them, right?
> 
> Everybody in SchH I know has either a purebred from overseas or AKC/USC registered dog so it was pretty much news to me too. It took her quite a while to find the right breeder from where she gets a puppy from. All breeders had been suggested by her PoliceK9 friends and apparently they could care less about papers.


yeah it is so cheap to register a litter why not? but those who don't care probably would be able to tell you the history of each dog better than anyone else. Just because they don't have papers doesn't mean they don't know the history. tracing the lineage and knowing the history is not a dog of unknown heritage.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

ames said:


> yeah it is so cheap to register a litter why not? but those who don't care probably would be able to tell you the history of each dog better than anyone else. Just because they don't have papers doesn't mean they don't know the history. tracing the lineage and knowing the history is not a dog of unknown heritage.


Oh absolutely. That's what you get with a lot of oldtimers back in Germany. You tell them a dogs name and they tell you exactly what is behind that dog, names, traits, pro's and con's. They know a story to every single dog in the pedigree all the way back to the tenth generation, if not even further than that.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Oh absolutely. That's what you get with a lot of oldtimers back in Germany. You tell them a dogs name and they tell you exactly what is behind that dog, names, traits, pro's and con's. They know a story to every single dog in the pedigree all the way back to the tenth generation, if not even further than that.


I bet! so cool!


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Oh absolutely. That's what you get with a lot of oldtimers back in Germany. You tell them a dogs name and they tell you exactly what is behind that dog, names, traits, pro's and con's. They know a story to every single dog in the pedigree all the way back to the tenth generation, if not even further than that.


You can learn a lot from studding lines and Peds but it is so much better to find an old timer that can tell you every thing you need to know from his own memory of the accounts as they occurred first hand.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

K9Jessie said:


> Well the truth is I didn't want a dog from a breeder and I don't have alot of money to spend. I wanted to adopt a GSD from a shelter and I did. So I got what I wanted.
> 
> What fact? That only papered dogs are purebreds? Kind of silly if you ask me. And I don't have a cat.


No shame is getting a rescue or a shelter dog, never have I said there was. I just said its disprectful of me to refer to my dog as a pure bred. I am sick or repeating myself to be honest. Many people have said the same thing as me, we can't say it any other way in order for you to understand. take a break, step away and let it soak in and then come back after pondering what we have all said and don't read things into it. That what I had to do to understand what people were talking about. Shit when I first came here I thought the AmStaff was just a show APBT, not its own breed.

The fact that a paperless dog, or a dog that's history is undetermined is a mutt, lol. that's is NOT an opinion, its a FACT (see above definitions if you are still trying to disagree with this fact or make it seem like its an opinion) Isn't that what you said was an opinion? Its not an opinion. It is a fact. and I was giving examples, nothing wrong with owning a cat. My kitty rocks.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> No shame is getting a rescue or a shelter dog, never have I said there was. I just said its disprectful of me to refer to my dog as a pure bred. I am sick or repeating myself to be honest. Many people have said the same thing as me, we can't say it any other way in order for you to understand. take a break, step away and let it soak in and then come back after pondering what we have all said and don't read things into it. That what I had to do to understand what people were talking about. Shit when I first came here I thought the AmStaff was just a show APBT, not its own breed.
> 
> The fact that a paperless dog, or a dog that's history is undetermined is a mutt, lol. that's is NOT an opinion, its a FACT (see above definitions if you are still trying to disagree with this fact or make it seem like its an opinion) Isn't that what you said was an opinion? Its not an opinion. It is a fact. and I was giving examples, nothing wrong with owning a cat. My kitty rocks.


No need to because I have people who agree with me. I took you up on your offer to ask the people on my forum about papered dogs and paperless dogs I will PM you the results. You only find it disrespectful and someone else does. But not everyone does think that. To you guys and some other people it may be disrespectful, but its not to me and others. IMO, if a dog looks EXACTLY like a purebred then they call it that. There is nothing wrong with it. Its not disrespectful. I am just calling my dog what I think it is based on an educated guess. IMO, a paperless dog does not mean mutt. Sorry but I disagree with you on that.

All you did was define the word mutt it didn't specifically say the dog had to be paperless. I also never said there was anything wrong with owning a cat, all I said is I don't have one.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

K9Jessie said:


> No need to because I have people who agree with me. I took you up on your offer to ask the people on my forum about papered dogs and paperless dogs I will PM you the results. You only find it disrespectful and someone else does. But not everyone does think that. To you guys and some other people it may be disrespectful, but its not to me and others. IMO, if a dog looks EXACTLY like a purebred then they call it that. There is nothing wrong with it. Its not disrespectful. I am just calling my dog what I think it is based on an educated guess. IMO, a paperless dog does not mean mutt. Sorry but I disagree with you on that.
> 
> All you did was define the word mutt it didn't specifically say the dog had to be paperless. I also never said there was anything wrong with owning a cat, all I said is I don't have one.


Awesome I would love to see the way you asked the question as well as their response! Seriously, start a new thread when you get some replies I am curious. I would love to hear what other people think on the subject. I don't care if you go around spewing off incorrect information about your unknown dog being a purebred lol really I don't, I thought you were trying to learn, not argue or attempt to disprove a fact with your opinion.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> Awesome I would love to see the way you asked the question as well as their response! Seriously, start a new thread when you get some replies I am curious. I would love to hear what other people think on the subject. I don't care if you go around spewing off incorrect information about your unknown dog being a purebred lol really I don't, I thought you were trying to learn, not argue or attempt to disprove a fact with your opinion.


Give it time as everyone on there is from different states and countries. Many of them are highly regarded GSD breeders and very knowledgeable GSD owners.

I don't think I am spewing off incorrect information. I know what my dogs are. You said so that you feel it is disrespectful to call a dog without papers purebred. What you feel is NOT an opinion. I am trying to learn, but I just don't agree with this thinking. Its not a fact to me until I see studies to show that a unpapered dog can't be called a purebred.

Like you said before we will have to agree to disagree.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Yes girls....agree to disagree and get along little doggies LOL!


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

I don't find it disrespectful an my family was very big in the GSD breed. Many of my families dogs went into the GSD history and became famous and popular as breeding stocks and are in thousands of pedigrees. 

There is the west german working line, west german show line, american show line, american pet line, czech working line, east german working line, long coat, stock coat, long coat with a stock undercoat, the "Altdeutscher" (the REAL old fashioned) German Shepherd Dog... 

There are so many different lines, so many different types of GSD's and every single one of them has the right to exist. Just because I don't like or care much for the Showline dogs doesn't mean they are any less important. Just because I don't care for pet line shepherds (which her dogs ultimately are) doesn't mean they don't have the right to be called GSD's. 

A Showline person may find my dogs ugly. And to be honest, my black and tan female is not pretty confirmation wise. She wouldn't get a good show rating at all. She's right on the edge of the standard, too long, one of her ears has damaged cartilage which makes it appear to be soft but she's a hard worker. She's a real hard worker. 

Most people don't even recognize my dogs as German Shepherds because they are not oversized and fat. 

Jessies dogs are more German Shepherds than what I've seen being called German Shepherds over here. 

A couple of days ago I met a Rescue Shepherd. Gorgeous male. Definitely a German Shepherd. Lots of drive, a hard dog. Comes from American Pet Lines, obviously but he's got every aspect of a German Shepherd and he would make a great detection dog. 

I wouldn't call them all mutts just because they don't have papers. 

By the way. The three pictures that were posted:

1 Picture: 
definitely a gorgeous sabel working line shepherd. Possibly east german or even czech lines. 

2 Picture: Could be Malinois or Dutchie/Shepherd mix. Many Dutchies and Malinois get mixed so I don't know if it is one or the other. From the shape of the head and the mask I'd say Malinois/Shepherd

3 Picture: I don't see Malinois in the dog. I do see something asian. The shape of the head is way too massive, the shape of the eyes have an asian touch. What I do see is a long-stock coated shepherd mix but not a Malinois unless it's a Tervuren and not a Mal. A lot of people call a Tervuren a loncoat Mal


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

K9Jessie said:


> Give it time as everyone on there is from different states and countries. Many of them are highly regarded GSD breeders and very knowledgeable GSD owners.
> 
> I don't think I am spewing off incorrect information. I know what my dogs are. You said so that you feel it is disrespectful to call a dog without papers purebred. *What you feel is NOT an opinion. *I am trying to learn, but I just don't agree with this thinking. Its not a fact to me until I see studies to show that a unpapered dog can't be called a purebred.
> 
> Like you said before we will have to agree to disagree.


yes it is, lol. Totally my opinion! I thought you were saying calling your dog a mutt is not a fact, not that how I felt others should feel about you calling your dog a GSD. I was just telling you my opinion on that part jeesh.



Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Yes girls....agree to disagree and get along little doggies LOL!


shit I said that like 3 pages ago lmao


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> yes it is, lol. Totally my opinion! I thought you were saying your dog is not a mutt is not a fact. Not that how I felt others should feel about you calling your dog a GSD. I was just telling you my opinion.
> 
> shit I said that like 3 pages ago lmao


I MEANT FACT!LOL! I was multitaking, doing college homework and doing something about dogs does NOT mix well.lol.

To me I feel it is not right say it a paperless dog is a mutt, when acts and looks like a certain breed. That is MY opinion. In my opinion I feel my dogs are purebred as they act and look like GSDs.

But we can agree to disagree.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I feel I am the queen of coffee and should be paid millions to work at my job. Doesn't mean shit or that anyone else would agree. Whatever floats your boat but as Long as you realize you are wrong is all that matters. Call your dog what you want I could are less seriously I was only trying to explain the why so made sense.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

wow that was a loong read, I missed alot when I was away I guess lol. I think you cant always tell when a dog is mixed they can take on the characturistics of 1 breed vs both breeds or multi breeds involved. Big reason we cant answer these people who ask is my dog a pit bull ect ect you cant tell from looking at a dog. You may be able to see particular breeds but in mixes it isnt always so obvious. If you cant prove your dogs history with either hand written peds, papers or your own knowledge { meaning you know all the dogs for generations back } then your dog shold be labeled a mix or mutt or cross whatever you feel better with. If there is an obvious breed like GSD or APBT then call it a GSD or whatever mix ect ect... just my opinion. But for those who take pride and pay the money to know exactly what they have and to know that line or dog perfectly it is disrespectful to call your rescue scatterbred, mix unknown history dog a pure bred. Infact here without papers its illegal to sell a pup as purebred.


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