# American Bully?? APBT??



## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

Well I just got my papers for my puppy in the mail...as I was looking at them and ordering the ped, it brought a 
question to my mind...one that there may be no answer to...but none the less if it is discussed in a respectful
manner I think it will lead to a great conversation. What makes a dog an American Bully? I currently own 2 ADBA
registered males...and yes my papers say American Pit Bull Terrier. There is always talk of American Bullies being mixed..and paper hanging etc etc...on the opposite end there are those who say the American Bully has been created through selective breeding of the AmStaff and the APBT...okay...there are several American Bully lines out there now...Gotti...Edge...etc...just to name a few. I have seen RE dogs that fall into more of a classic APBT or AmStaff standard. Are they bully just because of the name? Are they mixed? Both Holly and Shana have dogs that are a good example of the build I speak of. Okay if I have a Gottiline AmBully...is he mixed simply because of the name Gotti as many have stated before? Some speak of paper hanging...but like any other acusation...proof would be needed to make a valid point. Where is it? So what makes an American Bully? Where is the line drawn? If a dog has a large build is he bully? If he has a short snout with a wide head...is he an American Bully? If a pedigree is ordered and comes back that a dog is scatterbred...with no well known dogs listed in the ped...but he has a large build...or is short and stout...does that make him an AmBully? Does it make him a mixed breed? Does it make him an APBT? If the dog is over 70 lbs...I have heard people say...it's a mutt...or it's not an APBT it's an AmBully...but where was the line drawn? A weight limit, height...head size? I would love to hear everyones input on the subject...this thread is not intended to turn into arguing or bashing of either breed...I hope to recieve some educated feedback and good conversation...thanks...


Just for the record...these are not questions I have about my dogs in particular...simply meant for discussion purposes...thanks


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

It would vary from person to person and their opinion. Certain dog obviously I would call American Bully when they show extreme signs of mastiff and bulldog crossing.

Gotti and RE *STARTED WITH AMSTAFFS* however most of those lines now a days are obviously mixed due to the drastic change in build between 2-3 generations.

Some people will Say Dumae is an American Bully due to the fact that she carries RE and Gotti lines. Even tho she can very well look like an ADBA style dog at 4yrs old here.























Stack who does not carry and RE or Gotti lines but only APBT/AMSTAFF lines is also called American Bully by many due to size.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

Okay...good the conversation has begun...you say stack is referred to as an American Bully...due to size. What do you refer to him/her as. I realize this subject will vary due to people opinions that is exactly what I wanted. I know where I stand on the subject...and am not seeking advice on my actual dogs...this is more just intended for educated conversation...thanks for the reply Holly!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The way I determine a breed of dog is by a pedigree and what's in the pedigree I look at all the dogs and the bloodlines behind the dogs in at least the first 4 generations. I don't care anything about physical build, color, weight, size. Those things have NOTHING to do with determining what breed a dog is. For me it's really cut and dry an American Bully is a dog who stems from bully bloodlines, RE, GOTTI, GREY LINE, GAFF, WATCHDOG, ect.

Now you have some dogs who are scatter bred they have a little bit of everything or lack of info in there pedigree's there is no consistency in bloodlines. Those dogs I call scatter bred.

Amstaff's Bloodlines Ruffian, Tacoma, Larum, Nevada, or any show bloodline.

Bulldog's APBT is a game dog or game bred dog Redboy, Eli, Jeep, Mayday, Mims, Boyles, ect

Then you have dogs who are out crossed they can be a mix of show and game blood or a mix of bully and show blood or even a mix of bully and game blood. I don't agree with doing this as it ruins breeds. Amstaff's should be bred to Amstaff's, Game Dogs to Game dogs and bully's to bully's. One breed has nothing to offer the other breed and by crossing and mixing things up IMO it's just breeding more mutt's.

Everyone is going to have their own opinions but the way I determine how a dog is bred and what breed of dog it is .. Is by a pedigree without this info the dog is a mutt and it's a your guess is as good as mine situation.

American Bully

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=123541

Game Dog APBT

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=560

Game Bred Dog APBT

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=303841

American Staffordshire Terrier

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=4224

I should add the pedigree should come from a reputable registry such as the ADBA UKC or AKC


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Sadie said:


> American Bully
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [123541] :: BIGLEY'S KORUPT YOUNG GOTTY


I had to change statements here after viewing photos.

The PEDIGREE above is a BYB'ED Amstaff. However this is one of the dogs that you can tell has had obvious mixing due to the change in build over 1 generation of dogs.

I refer to all my dogs as dogs. I have pets. I am on the competition path and do hope to title, health test and breed Bee but everyone else is just a pet some of which I will compete for fun.

As I state on my site people may consider my dogs as American Bullies and thats ok with me. However I do not strive to the American Bully standard nor do I complete in American Bully events. 
It will always be a matter of opinion other than dogs that are deviously APBT, Amstaff, or American Bully


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

american_pit13 said:


> Not trying to start an argument with ya Sadie
> 
> This is where the point of opinion comes in.
> 
> ...


It's ok I know people have different views on this subject. But from what I have learned and the guys who have schooled me this is where I stand. I know people who breed specifically for the show ring some of the dogs are amstaff's some are show and go's a mix of amstaff/show/game blood. And some are bully amstaff mixes. But they are all bred for the show ring I call these dogs show bred dogs but when determining what type of breed they would fall under I personally go by a pedigree to make that call.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Psst refer to change statement above


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

american_pit13 said:


> I had to change statements here.
> 
> The PEDIGREE above is a BYB'ED Amstaff.


He is an offspring of Juan Gotti LMAO I randomly found him off Gotti's pedigree so I would label him an American Bully based on that I don't know anything about Gotti other than he has ALOT of kids LOL. But for the foundation of the American Bully a lot of Amstaff blood was used.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

If you found a dog of mostly game lines built for performance but found the name Juan Gotti in the ped...what would you label him as? I really like the conversation...I love to hear others opinions on the subject!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Sadie said:


> He is an offspring of Juan Gotti LMAO I randomly found him off Gotti's pedigree so I would label him an American Bully based on that I don't know anything about Gotti other than he has ALOT of kids LOL. But for the foundation of the American Bully a lot of Amstaff blood was used.


Gotti himself was an amstaff. He was bred to everything under the sun and made many of the beginning American Bullies but he himself when kept in condition was a UKC show and WP pointed dog. However when the bully fad took off he was kept fat to look huge and impressive bringing in the high fee as a stud dog.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

So then in ur opinion are American Bullies just a AmStaff x APBT? And if so why the name change??


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lone Star that is where it get's touchy LOL and enthusiasts and fanciers will draw the line! Dog men who breed game dogs or game bred dogs don't appreciate folks who cross breed and mix bloodlines like that. I personally don't feel any game dog or game bred dog should have anything in their pedigree associated with an american bully or amstaff in it's pedigree. If I see stuff like that I call them mutts or crosses. Now don't get me wrong at one point the Amstaff and the APBT were the same dog so if you go back so many generations you'll find they were the same breed but many generations back. However the Amstaff has been bred for the show ring for over like 80+ years now and has clearly distinguished itself from the APBT all together.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Lone Star said:


> So then in ur opinion are American Bullies just a AmStaff x APBT? And if so why the name change??


IMO some are and some are not. It comes to knowing your dogs and not just the lines.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lone Star said:


> So then in ur opinion are American Bullies just a AmStaff x APBT? And if so why the name change??


IMO An American Bully is a mix of a lot of things these dogs are out crossed with so many different breeds it's really hard to say I think the foundation of the RE dogs were APBT X Amstaff but those are far from few these days. I don't know if the American Bully has a breeding standard yet because I don't own or breed them. But when I see those bloodlines I listed or like bloodlines that's when I call it an American Bully.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

So are you saying all American Bullies are outcrossed to several breeds of dogs? If so how did you come up with this? Please once again I would like to point out just for on-lookers...there is no confusion in my mind about what is what...lol...I simply wanted to discuss this topic and get others opinions...


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Lone Star this is an excellent thread! Personally, I think the only reliable way to differentiate is by the peds. IMO setting weight/height/appearance limits is fraught with danger as you can have bully looking "game bred" dogs and "game bred looking" bullies and that's where the confusion begins.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lone Star said:


> So are you saying all American Bullies are outcrossed to several breeds of dogs? If so how did you come up with this? Please once again I would like to point out just for on-lookers...there is no confusion in my mind about what is what...lol...I simply wanted to discuss this topic and get others opinions...


Because there was never a standard set in place if you will the American Bully started as a fad or a designer breed there was never any purpose the goal was to breed a designer dog that appealed to certain people. Anything went to establish size, color, ect. I know this because there are several documented interviews from the founder's of these bully lines where it was admitted that out crossing was done to establish this type of dog/breed.Common dogs used the english bulldog, mastiff, apbt, amstaff, these are just some breeds that I am aware of. But I will say I know of some American Bully owner's who are working diligently to establish breeding standards and are proud to own American Bully's and market them as such. I am starting to see this more and more and I am happy that the American Bully is finally moving towards a standard and purpose of it's own.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [68594] :: NOTORIOUS JUAN GOTTY

does anyone know what belongs in the unknown for this line?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

william williamson said:


> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [68594] :: NOTORIOUS JUAN GOTTY
> 
> does anyone know what belongs in the unknown for this line?


A more complete pedigree
Viewing Pedigree Details for Notorious Juan Gotty - Bully Breed Resource

This peds online only go back as far as whoever started it has entered in.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

I think an Am Bully is a designer dog. Or a mixed breed. They are on there way to becoming a breed, but it is not a pure anything yet. Having Juan Gotti to me does not automatically make a bully as I consider him a show bred APBT. Whenever he was bred to a none APBT that would make the puppies mixed though.

Mixing different lines together then continuing line breeding them is important for the breeds overall health. So just because a dog is scatter bred doesn't mean it's still not an APBT to me. Scatter breeding is not my ideal way to breed but it doesn't make an APBT any less of an APBT. To me a show bred APBT is still an APBT it didn't change it's breed because it stepped into a show ring. Just like it didn't become a different breed when most people stopped fighting dogs. Or because some people used them for ranch work, etc, etc. I believe a true APBT is a multipurpose dog. With a desire to please and a drive to do anything asked of it. It could be anything from a therapy dog to a canine athlete. Looks don't matter so much as each line has a higher incidences of certain characteristics that may give it it's own "look". Some look more bull and some look more terrier. Breeders should seek a balance between the two. I think the Am. Bully came about because some desired a dog that was more bull more impressive and just more and so they added to the mix and have created something different. Something that suits their needs but is no longer an APBT.

To me a dog who is dual registered AKC/UKC is still an APBT. As far as I know there was no mixing of breeds involved to make an Am. Staff a separate breed. So it's only a APBT with a different name and I would consider it a show bred APBT. Although I can see how some older dog people may have hurt feelings because if I was around back then I would have considered the people who registered their dogs with the AKC as Am. Staffs as kinda like a sell out. People trying to deny what their dogs truly are. Now that UKC doesn't do single registration anymore that might change, but I think one or both registries would have to change there standard so the dogs would be bred significantly different from each other. Then the breeds could become close cousins like APBT's and Staffy Bulls.

I consider my own and Holly's dogs show bred APBT's.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

You consider your and Holly's dogs show bred APBT's...I would really have to know which dogs you speak of in particular that you are referring to them as show quality... and as far as APBT...I was under the impression that Holly had Razor's Edge dogs...well the majority of them at least...so you consider RE an APBT line? Or is it some RE are APBT some RE are American Bullies, and like i asked previously where is the line drawn? Theres no way to know all of the dogs in peoples pedigrees personally...so then you are passing judgement merely off the appearance of the dog?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Lone Star said:


> You consider your and Holly's dogs show bred APBT's...I would really have to know which dogs you speak of in particular that you are referring to them as show quality... and as far as APBT...I was under the impression that Holly had Razor's Edge dogs...well the majority of them at least...so you consider RE an APBT line? Or is it some RE are APBT some RE are American Bullies, and like i asked previously where is the line drawn? Theres no way to know all of the dogs in peoples pedigrees personally...so then you are passing judgement merely off the appearance of the dog?


Most of my dogs are partially RE/Gotti.

Notorious Juan Gotty being Dumaes Great Grandsire

RE By 
Razors Edge Rayna
* CH* Razors Edge Purple Rose of Cairo
Razors Edge Sea Breeze
*GRCH* Razors Edge Throwin Knuckles
*GRCH* Razors Edge Sadeys Paddington

RE was originally UKC style show dogs and Amstaffs.

Dumae 
Viewing Pedigree Details for Herricks Lady Dumae - Bully Breed Resource

Stack (NO RE, GOTTI)
Viewing Pedigree Details for TLC'S CA STACK HOUSE OF F.P - Bully Breed Resource

Bee, Faith, Snoop (Stack X Dumae)
Viewing Pedigree Details for Krugers Bumble Bee - Bully Breed Resource

Slim (American Bully) I have not finished her ped.
Viewing Pedigree Details for PITTS BLUE FIRE - Bully Breed Resource


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

As soon as you do not have a pedigree of 100% game bred APBTs', its not an APBT.

American Bullies have been mixed with other breeds. Some admitted it, some did not. http://humboldtpitbulls.com/P7b_History_APBT.html
The American Bully is a new well loved breed.
A victim of its own success.

Most breeds become victims of their own success.

Some Bull dog breeds can not have a natural birth because their head is to big. People bred for a big head and that is the result.

The APBT was bred for the invisible trait of gameness. The American Bully breed has an exaggerated look. A short neck is no good for the function of the APBT. The same with to big of a head, blue coat (the only genetic fault of an APBT with the blue gene that brought with it skin problems as a hidden genetic trait). Many of the traits are exaggerated to the point of being another breed.

A pure bred American Pit Bull TERRIER (Am. Bullies have lost most of the Terrier in them) can look Bully, like a skinny hound, etc. You need to see the pedigree and trust the person you get the pup from.

American Pit Bull Terrier History Pitbull Stories

One thing is for sure. People have always loved all kinds of Bull Dog Breeds.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

aimee235 said:


> To me a dog who is dual registered AKC/UKC is still an APBT. As far as I know there was no mixing of breeds involved to make an Am. Staff a separate breed. So it's only a APBT with a different name and I would consider it a show bred APBT.


I disagree at one point in history they were the same breed that's a fact. However they are no longer remotely close to being the same breed. The original purpose of the APBT/BULLDOG was a working/box dogs. American Staffordshire Terriers went a different direction many years ago .. They have been bred for the show ring for at least 80 years now once you breed a dog away from it's original purpose you cannot call it the same dog any longer. Even though dog fighting is illegal in the US it's very legal still in other part's of the world. Dog men are still breeding bulldogs for the box and people are still working their bulldogs in working sports. I am sure you have Amstaff's that will work even today but they are not bred structurally for working sports nor are they bred for gameness or for the box. They are not working dogs yes there are some who are capable of it but that's not what they are bred to do they are show ring dogs.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

Lone Star said:


> Well I just got my papers for my puppy in the mail...as I was looking at them and ordering the ped, it brought a
> question to my mind...one that there may be no answer to...but none the less if it is discussed in a respectful
> manner I think it will lead to a great conversation. What makes a dog an American Bully? I currently own 2 ADBA
> registered males...and yes my papers say American Pit Bull Terrier. There is always talk of American Bullies being mixed..and paper hanging etc etc...on the opposite end there are those who say the American Bully has been created through selective breeding of the AmStaff and the APBT...okay...there are several American Bully lines out there now...Gotti...Edge...etc...just to name a few. I have seen RE dogs that fall into more of a classic APBT or AmStaff standard. Are they bully just because of the name? Are they mixed? Both Holly and Shana have dogs that are a good example of the build I speak of. Okay if I have a Gottiline AmBully...is he mixed simply because of the name Gotti as many have stated before? Some speak of paper hanging...but like any other acusation...proof would be needed to make a valid point. Where is it? So what makes an American Bully? Where is the line drawn? If a dog has a large build is he bully? If he has a short snout with a wide head...is he an American Bully? If a pedigree is ordered and comes back that a dog is scatterbred...with no well known dogs listed in the ped...but he has a large build...or is short and stout...does that make him an AmBully? Does it make him a mixed breed? Does it make him an APBT? If the dog is over 70 lbs...I have heard people say...it's a mutt...or it's not an APBT it's an AmBully...but where was the line drawn? A weight limit, height...head size? I would love to hear everyones input on the subject...this thread is not intended to turn into arguing or bashing of either breed...I hope to recieve some educated feedback and good conversation...thanks...
> ...


This video "says" it all.
You have to think about it and watch it a few times.
The only APBTs' are at the end.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

Awesome posts everyone...this is EXACTLY what I was looking for in this thread...lots of opinions and all posted in a very respectable manner! I look forward to more peoples opinions on the subject!!! Thanks!!!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

When you take a Lab from hunting it doesn't change the fact that it is a Lab. 

Just because you took the dog away from the box doesn't mean its a different dog. You wouldn't know unless you started fighting some show dogs and testing them. Whats to say they are not still game? How do you know that they are not?

For all we know you could take some AKC Amstaffs test them and get some Game dogs.. You can't say that they are not still game just because they haven't been tested. 

So if people go by the box for what makes an APBT then how are any of the curs that couldn't make it in the box APBT , and produced game dogs that are APBT?

Until you introduce another breed you can't make a breed anything different. 

Even a Poodle is still the same breed as it hunting ancestors.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

american_pit13 said:


> When you take a Lab from hunting it doesn't change the fact that it is a Lab.
> 
> Just because you took the dog away from the box doesn't mean its a different dog. You wouldn't know unless you started fighting some show dogs and testing them. Whats to say they are not still game? How do you know that they are not?
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

I agree with you for the most part...and vice versa whos to say that a dog with an awesome 'gamebred' pedigree is'nt really a cur without the proper testing? Just because a sheet of paper tells me it's game doesn't really prove much to me...

I do have an issue tho with the fact that it seems alright to label some peoples dogs APBT regardless of the lines...sounds almost like we wanna label our dogs as what best suits our wants...I am not directing this at you Holly...more at the way your friend labels your dogs...you know my opinion of em already I love em...lol...but lets see where this goes...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

american_pit13 said:


> Just because you took the dog away from the box doesn't mean its a different dog. You wouldn't know unless you started fighting some show dogs and testing them. Whats to say they are not still game? How do you know that they are not?
> 
> For all we know you could take some AKC Amstaffs test them and get some Game dogs.. You can't say that they are not still game just because they haven't been tested.


 Game bred dogs come from game dogs PROVEN box dogs Amstaff dogs come from show dogs who have proven worthy in a show ring without breeding for gameness it's highly unlikely that an Amstaff would throw a game dog. And no dog man in this lifetime is going to use an amstaff to breed for gameness or for the box. Dog men use what works and what's been proven the last time an amstaff stepped foot in the box was many many years ago. If your breeding out prey drive and away from gameness and working/athletic ability and you start breeding for aesthetics and away from the breeds original purpose after so many generations the breed is no longer the same IMO.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

So what about all these old game line kennels who are no longer breeding tested dogs just dogs who come down from game dogs are they no longer breeding APBTS? Within 5 gens of no longer breeding rolled dogs will they no longer have APBTS?


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

american_pit13 said:


> So what about all these old game line kennels who are no longer breeding tested dogs just dogs who come down from game dogs are they no longer breeding APBTS? Within 5 gens of no longer breeding rolled dogs will they no longer have APBTS?


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

= Lots of pretty papers...imo...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

If your breeding game bred dogs without testing them after so many generations IMO they basically become amstaff's.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

Sadie said:


> If your breeding game bred dogs without testing them after so many generations IMO they basically become amstaff's.


No matter what the papers say?? Best of the best classic game lines??? No testing no APBT??


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Sadie said:


> If your breeding game bred dogs without testing them after so many generations IMO they basically become amstaff's.


Perfect, exactly my opinion also. I no dogmen who say after 2-3gens they are Amstaff's


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lone Star said:


> No matter what the papers say?? Best of the best classic game lines??? No testing no APBT??


After so many generations if there are no tested or proven dogs in a dogs pedigree I would say it becomes an amstaff. I would say after 3-4 generations IMO


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Show bred and show quality are two different things to me. You can breed dogs with the intent to make show quality puppies but not all will be so. So a dog can be show bred and not show quality.

I only have Clyde and Twilight. They were both bred for showing purposes and are both show quality. Clyde is a GRCH and Twilight is major pointed, and will continue showing till she receives her grand title. To me Razors edge is an APBT line and an Am. Bully line. The line to me would be drawn where the dogs are quite obviously mixes. Two APBT's are not likely to throw a whole litter of dogs that are all a sudden different. If any were not as expected I would like to see DNA. My personal preference would have ALL dogs bred DNA-P and all the resulting puppies would have to be DNA-VIP'd to be eligible for registration with any registry. Therefore we wouldn't be wondering if anything was mixed at all.

I have seen almost all of the dogs in Dumae's and Stacks pedigree so I'm pretty familiar with them. The ones in the recent gens she posted anyway. I forgot she had Slim though. She would be an Am. Bully to me because of her dads side. I forgot about Francis as well who is neither an APBT or an AM. Bully, but I'm not gonna go break the bad news to little Francis. The people she got them from where breeding for show. So they are show bred(Stack and Mae). Some are show quality. We lived together when she got them.

I base my judgment off of a mixture of appearance and known fact. If I know for a fact they aren't mixed then they aren't Am. Bullies. I can only pass judgment on what I know. I don't generally try and tell people what they have, and I like to steer clear of anything with suspect lineage. You have to have some trust in the breeders you get your dogs from as well as research and make your own opinions. I can't say for absolute certainty who's dog is what unless I was there when they were made or better yet they are DNA tested to verify parentage.Although I think some people like to mascaraed their APBT's as Am. Bullies. That doesn't make them that though. No matter how much someone wants their oranges to be apples so they can make apple pie doesn't change the fact they still have oranges and if they want apple pie they better go buy some darn apples. One thing I look for if I haven't seen a dog in person is to see if there are traits from both parents in the dog. That's no guarantee though.

Twi's ped-She is actually somewhat distantly related to Jaun Gotti, but not directly. They both have Reynoso's Brandy in their peds.
Viewing Pedigree Details for Nevada's New Moon - Bully Breed Resource

Clyde's Ped - Viewing Pedigree Details for Cali Girl's Itza Stickup of DMG - Bully Breed Resource


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Some Am Staffs were tested does that make them APBT's?


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

aimee235 said:


> To me Razors edge is an APBT line and an Am. Bully line.


If something has two breeds in it, i would call it a mongral.
Not trying to step on toes but if you are crossing two breeds that is a crossbred


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

aimee235 said:


> Some Am Staffs were tested does that make them APBT's?


Aimee do you have pedigree's for these tested Amstaff's? If they were tested back when APBT's and Amstaff's were the same breed than they were bulldogs. But I personally don't know of any Amstaff today in a pedigree who is a tested or proven box dog. If you have a pedigree of one please post it up.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

MISSAPBT said:


> If something has two breeds in it, i would call it a mongral.
> Not trying to step on toes but if you are crossing two breeds that is a crossbred


She is saying that the line has been used as both not has both in it.

The lines started as an APBT ( OR Amstaff if your in that debate) line and then became an American Bully line.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

My toes are short and sometimes hard to step on.

I look at it like this. If I bred an imaginary perfect APBT(it's imaginary so it is perfect in every way to everybody) to a poodle that litter would be a mongrel litter. I could keep breeding those mongrels and make them into a breed. I could call them Aimee's line. They would be Aimee's line of pitadoodles. Now if I then bred my perfect APBT to another of it's kind I could have my line of perfect APBT's I might abandon them for my newfound and over popular pitadoodles. I'd still have 2 lines with the same name though. Aimeeline pitadoodles and Aimeeline APBT's. Now if I bred and Aimeeline APBT to one of my pitadoodles after it was a breed then I would make mutts again. If that makes sense. Sometimes I don't. lol.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

american_pit13 said:


> When you take a Lab from hunting it doesn't change the fact that it is a Lab.
> 
> Just because you took the dog away from the box doesn't mean its a different dog. You wouldn't know unless you started fighting some show dogs and testing them. Whats to say they are not still game? How do you know that they are not?
> 
> ...


I would never hurt by dogs. Its all about respecting history.

And if you take a Patterdale Terrier away from hunting, win in the show ring, and let it hunt, he is more atp to get hurt and not be a true Patterdale (probably a better house dog).

Hurricane Kennels Patterdale Terriers

There are some great YouTude videos on this subject.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Sadie said:


> Aimee do you have pedigree's for these tested Amstaff's? If they were tested back when APBT's and Amstaff's were the same breed than they were bulldogs. But I personally don't know of any Amstaff today in a pedigree who is a tested or proven box dog. If you have a pedigree of one please post it up.


I don't. Once I find out someone is a dog fighter I will no longer be friends with them.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

american_pit13 said:


> So what about all these old game line kennels who are no longer breeding tested dogs just dogs who come down from game dogs are they no longer breeding APBTS? Within 5 gens of no longer breeding rolled dogs will they no longer have APBTS?


You said it, not me.

That is why you (at least for a pure bred APBT) have to make sure the past grandparents were true Champions. There is a chance of the having that hidden trait of never quitting in the current dogs. There is also frozen semen available.

People (and dogs) worked for hundreds of years for the dogs of today to be here.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

I see where you are coming from Aimee.

But with the am bully it is not just two breeds it is the pitbull cross with either.. dogo, corso, mastiff, EBT ect ect


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

RE, and Gotti dogs were bred from game dogs.by stock,and not so much as direct lineage.
their were some blue staff game dogs,that Wilson saw,I think they were Ryan dogs.the yard actually maintained game bloodlines of staffs.and they were some blue dogs.
I think alot of peoples beef is not where they came from,it's where they went.
good ideas often become exploited when it comes to what people want and what they can do to get it.
all the talk of paper hangin,it wasn't back in the mid to late 90's that folks were really screamin about it.yeah,they assaulted Dave Wilson.they tried to discredit his foundation,yet what did he do?
he did nothing different than game breeders did when they looked for an outcross to add some depth to their yard.
yet he went lookin for shorter blockier headed dogs,they were also lookin for that thing,something you hardly hear anymore,Low Riders.
now it's Bully as they have formed the registry.
the thing,I wish I had kept it in print,their was A post that actually outlined the outcross to an english bulldog.it was owned by A guy that bred to it for the chest and splayed leg look.he had some dogs,I'm not gonna say Gotti or RE,as I do not know if they were the recipient of the breeding by the stud.it was actually a show EB.then their was someone who put A blue neo on top of A bully style dog.
one thing,the thing that stands out,is that when you cross out the game is still genetically implanted into the dog.
I had A pit boston pound puppy. when she was about 4 when we adopted a blue pit.that mix lit into that pit and gave it an a$$ whuppin for about 45 seconds.before the pit grabbed her by the neck and slung her across the yard.I was holding the pit,and that little [email protected]# jumped on her.
you can't distance any pit,pit mix so far from it's genetic tic in it's brain or psyche.at some point it crosses their mind.you will never make me believe you can remove it.HA,different story.thats something that is transgressed by human nature.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

NorCalTim said:


> You said it, not me.
> 
> That is why you (at least for a pure bred APBT) have to make sure the past grandparents were true Champions. There is a chance of the having that hidden trait of never quitting in the current dogs. There is also frozen semen available.
> 
> People (and dogs) worked for hundreds of years for the dogs of today to be here.


Most old timers say its all about the first 3 generations for attitude, etc. The fourth and past means just about nothing to them.

That is not my mind set. I just have house dogs with good (no great) lines. That is just the mind set of all most every person who created these wonderful dogs we have.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> I see where you are coming from Aimee.
> 
> But with the am bully it is not just one breed it is the pitbull cross with either.. dogo, corso, mastiff, EBT ect ect


I think it's hard for us to judge them from so far away and tar them all with the same brush. Where we live we don't have bullies so it's hard to tell sometimes from pics. Sure, I agree with you that *some* monsters are definitely mixed with mastiff/presa or whatever but then you'll see some others that just look like Amstaffs or APBTs and are really just pitterstaffs.

Basically the waters are very muddy. I'm not saying they should all be called APBTs (they shouldn't) but I don't know if its fair to say they're all mongrels.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

NorCalTim said:


> That is not my mind set. I just have house dogs with good (no great) lines. That is just the mind set of all most every person who created these wonderful dogs we have.


yES, AND WHEN WE START TO ULTER THAT AND START MIXING BREEDS IN WE HAVE PROBLEMS (whoops caps)

And your right auz_staff this is all based on what i have "read" so im definatly no expert, as we do not have ambullys in NZ or Auz.
I have said this before, im too much of a gamedog/gamebred person. I am definatly one sided. *hangs head*


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

MISSAPBT said:


> I see where you are coming from Aimee.
> 
> But with the am bully it is not just two breeds it is the pitbull cross with either.. dogo, corso, mastiff, EBT ect ect


That is very true and is the reason I really don't consider them a breed. When they stop mixing and consistently reproduce themselves gen after gen I would. Right now I think they are more of a designer breed(mutt) or I guess designer group since they could be mixed with anything.

Edit to add. There are some people working hard to make them a breed so I guess some of them would be more consistent then others. To those people I say good job. To the people out to make a buck I say you suck. I really hope everyone here is in the good job section. lol.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

MISSAPBT said:


> I have said this before, im too much of a gamedog/gamebred person. I am definatly one sided. *hangs head*


I agree with you I love me some bulldogs


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

NorCalTim said:


> Most old timers say its all about the first 3 generations for attitude, etc. The fourth and past means just about nothing to them.
> 
> That is not my mind set. I just have house dogs with good (no great) lines. That is just the mind set of all most every person who created these wonderful dogs we have.


I got A female right now,shes way WAY past this statistic.
and everything that we looked for in A game dog she posesses.
when I lived in costa rica we had a big dog run down on us at the beach.
she's got it.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

What makes a dog a dog is the intentions of the breeder. Better odds if he's good at it.


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## Hanover Pits (Jan 29, 2010)

ok if you go to Hanover pits link "HAnover's Finest", Take a look at jessey the Fawn Dog with the pic at a tilt. He Is Game Bred and People have taken their time out of their day to tell me that he is bully.. He weighs around 60 pounds now. All muscle and he has the head and chest. Drive and strife to do what he can.. After some getting through his thick skull he does what I say and when I say it. He's determined to perform for me the owner.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> Perfect, exactly my opinion also. I no dogmen who say after 2-3gens they are Amstaff's





Sadie said:


> After so many generations if there are no tested or proven dogs in a dogs pedigree I would say it becomes an amstaff. I would say after 3-4 generations IMO


So if a APBT isn't "proven", then it becomes an AMSTAFF???  How does that work? If a Lab doesn't retrieve game, what does it become? If GS doesn't do protection work, what does it become? If a Border Collie doesn't herd, what does it become etc. etc.......This is where I don't get it. Some of you say that for a APBT to be considered an APBT it has to be tested and if it's not it's not really an APBT. That makes no sense to me. How can you call a dog something else just because it hasn't been "proven" in the box???

Honestly not trying to start an argument. Just trying real hard to understand this line of thinking. :hug:



MISSAPBT said:


> If something has two breeds in it, i would call it a mongral.
> Not trying to step on toes but if you are crossing two breeds that is a crossbred


I asked this question in another thread but will pose it here as well. What did the APBT start out as??? I'm quite sure it wasn't "just there" per se. It had to come from more than one dog, correct? I understand they are a much older breed, but buy this line of thinking, couldn't you say an APBT is a "mongral" as you call it? Is time and a standard what will appease those that don't look at the Am Bully as a breed.

Again, not trying to be argumentative. Simply playing devils advocate and truly trying to understand all this stuff. There is a LOT to take in and sift through to form an opinion.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

All breeds/types start out as a concept. Most are for a specific function or job. What becomes the standard is whatever works best for that function or job. Once that has been established, those who breed for preservation of that breed/type sustain that dog. Those who stray away from the standard (not conf standard) are no longer breeding for the total dog and in those cases where the original function is disregarded, are not breeding the same dog. IMO, a lab that simply won't retrieve is probably a crappy lab. A lab not bred to retrieve is a pet.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

buzhunter said:


> All breeds/types start out as a concept. Most are for a specific function or job. What becomes the standard is whatever works best for that function or job. Once that has been established, those who breed for preservation of that breed/type sustain that dog. Those who stray away from the standard (not conf standard) are no longer breeding for the total dog and in those cases where the original function is disregarded, are not breeding the same dog. IMO, *a lab that simply won't retrieve is probably a crappy lab. A lab not bred to retrieve is a pet*.


Right, no issues, but that's my point. Even if a lab doesn't retrieve (just doesn't or not used for that), it's still a lab. I just don't understand how someone can say that if the dog doesn't have any proven dogs in it's ped after so many generations that it is called something else.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

No, let me clarify. A pet has no breed IMO.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

buzhunter said:


> No, let me clarify. A pet has no breed IMO.


OK, devil's advocate here.........if a 4x4 is never used to go off road, and simply used as family transportation, it's still a 4x4, right (Sorry, same example I used in another thread but I don't have another analogy. LOL!)? I just don't understand the thinking that if an APBT or any breed is not used for what it was intended that it's not a breed anymore. 

Again, really just want to understand people's thinking. Not trying to be an arse or anything.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Only if it was built like a 4x4. If it's built for soccer moms and image like an Escalade, you'd more than likely ruin it by taking it off road.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

buzhunter said:


> Only if it was built like a 4x4. If it's built for soccer moms and image like an Escalade, you'd more than likely ruin it by taking it off road.


Ah touche! Dang, I got nothing right now. Let me get my thoughts in order. :hammer:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

wild_deuce03 said:


> So if a APBT isn't "proven", then it becomes an AMSTAFF???  How does that work?
> 
> How can you call a dog something else just because it hasn't been "proven" in the box???


Easy because the purpose the APBT was even created was for the box and working capabilities. Years and years of breeding for gameness and working ability is what makes the APBT/bulldogs.

What I said was this a game bred dog comes from PROVEN box dogs this is a fact. Game bred dogs are bred from game dogs. Game dogs proved themselves in the box. Now this is where things can change if your breeding game bred dogs and are not testing them or proving them in the traditional sense they were meant to be after a few generations they are no longer being upheld to the standard of breed.

Amstaff's and Apbt's were both box dogs in the beginning both were bred for the box and came from proven box dogs they were one is the same. When things changed Amstaff's went to the show ring breeding standards changed no longer was gameness, prey/DA, and athletic/ working ability required or even needed in a show ring .The focus of breeding became aethstetics and sound temperament.

APBT/Bulldog= Box dog/working dog

Amstaff= Show Dog

Both have entirely 2 different purposes and breeding requirements are like night and day.

Now what happens when you get a game bred dog who stems from tested parents or somewhere within the first 2-3 generations who is being bred but not being bred for gameness or tested for it? After so many generations of breeding away from gameness because the offspring are not being tested or proven the dogs become watered down in prey drive and working ability the likely hood of the offspring throwing game dogs becomes less and less generation after generation because the breeder is not breeding to preserve gameness and testing the dogs for it and keeping gameness alive within the breeding program.

So like Amstaff's who were once game dogs but bred away from gameness and the box all together the same apply's to game bred dogs if they are not being bred to the standard of a game dog and are being bred for the show ring after so many generations they basically become an amstaff or a show dog. IMO


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Easy because the purpose the APBT was even created was for the box and working capabilities. Years and years of breeding for gameness and working ability is what makes the APBT/bulldogs.
> 
> What I said was this a game bred dog comes from PROVEN box dogs this is a fact. Game bred dogs are bred from game dogs. Game dogs proved themselves in the box. Now this is where things can change if your breeding game bred dogs and are not testing them or proving them in the traditional sense they were meant to be after a few generations they are no longer being upheld to the standard of breed.
> 
> ...


Phew.....my head is spinning!!! :roll: LOL!!! OK, makes sense, for the most part. What I don't get, and don't think I'll agree with (yet  ), is that if a APBT doesn't have the gameness in it, or hasn't been tested for it, that it becomes something else. To me, that's like saying that if a gun isn't used for self defense, and just target shooting, it's still a weapon. Even if you never test it (again, maybe not the best anaology but it's all I've got right now).

Good lord there's a lot to understand and filter through!!! :hammer:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Phew.....my head is spinning!!! :roll: LOL!!! OK, makes sense, for the most part. What I don't get, and don't think I'll agree with (yet  ), is that if a APBT doesn't have the gameness in it, or hasn't been tested for it, that it becomes something else. To me, that's like saying that if a gun isn't used for self defense, and just target shooting, it's still a weapon. Even if you never test it (again, maybe not the best anaology but it's all I've got right now).
> 
> Good lord there's a lot to understand and filter through!!! :hammer:


Because the APBT and the Amstaff were once the EXACT same breed of dog. The only thing that happened was the AKC wanted nothing to do with the pit/fighting dogs thus dividing them into two groups one dog would continue to remain a fighting dog APBT while the other would no longer be associated with the pit and would be a show ring dog AMSTAFF. Even though they were essentially the same dog at one time in history breeding purpose/function/ability is what separates them today.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

what is the one foundation that is identified when this word genetic comes to the table?
it is clear as to it's function to naything that has the ability to think.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Because the APBT and the Amstaff were once the EXACT same breed of dog. The only that happened was the AKC wanted nothing to do with the pit/fighting dogs thus dividing them into two groups one dog would continue to remain a fighting dog APBT while the other would no longer be associated with the pit and would be a show ring dog AMSTAFF. Even though they were essentially the same dog at one time in history breeding purpose/function/ability is what separates them today.


Ahhhhhh......the light clicks on.

APBT - Game
Amstaff - Show dog

But, essentially the exact same dog, just different purposes???


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

william williamson said:


> what is the one foundation that is identified when this word genetic comes to the table?
> it is clear as to it's function to naything that has the ability to think.


OK, William, you just got a little too deep for me on that one. LOL! I can't think straight right now.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Ahhhhhh......the light clicks on.
> 
> APBT - Game
> Amstaff - Show dog
> ...


They were once the same breed of dog but breeding purpose/priority/and ability separates them today. They are still driven from the same past but are like night and day in function/purpose/ability in today's world. I consider them a cousin of our breed. But IMO they are no longer the same breed. They are a terrier type dog bred for the show ring.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

Sadie said:


> They were once the same breed of dog but breeding purpose/priority/and ability separates them today. They are still driven from the same past but are like night and day in function/purpose/ability. I consider them a cousin of our breed. But IMO they are no longer the same breed. They are a terrier type dog bred for the show ring.


Ok, so a combination of time, breeding purpose, standards is what makes a breed acceptable, correct? So Bullies need to have a defined purpose and standard over a period of time to be considered a breed in some people's eyes, yes?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Ok, so a combination of time, breeding purpose, standards is what makes a breed acceptable, correct? So Bullies need to have a defined purpose and standard over a period of time to be considered a breed in some people's eyes, yes?


In a nut shell yes ...  That's exactly my opinion !


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Ok, so a combination of time, breeding purpose, standards is what makes a breed acceptable, correct? So Bullies need to have a defined purpose and standard over a period of time to be considered a breed in some people's eyes, yes?


they've been at it for 20 years.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I just wanted to add that in every breed comes preservation ... It's important that a breed be preserved and upheld to it's original purpose and standards. Even though we know in the United States fighting dogs is illegal in other parts of the world it's not. Dog men in those parts of the world where dog fighting is legal are working to preserve the APBT in it's truest form. And then we have those breeder's who are working and breeding working dogs upholding them to the breeds working abilities. Preservation is a MUST in any breed of dog or animal to keep it alive.


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*The majority of dog breeds in America are pets, meaning they do not perform the task in which the breed was originally bred for. The exception is actual the lap dogs that were bred to just be pets.

I disagree with a breed only being a breed if it performs the task it was originally bred for. The confusion comes with the term "gamebred" as game, relates to a trait, not a physical trait, meaning you cant see it standing still, or running, or climbing a tree. It is seen in one aspect, in relation to our breed, and 99 percent of GPB members have never seen that trait or where it is determined. (Thats a good thing).

A breed is defined in my opinion by 2 major factor BREED TYPE, and pedigree. Breed type in simple terms, is basically what identifies a dog as its breed. The reason you can see a Dalmation and 8-10 times without seeing papers you know that breed is what it is. If you saw a longhaired striped blue dog and the person said it was a dalmation, you would call Bull Puckey! As the dog lacks breed type, it does not appear to be a Dalmation.

The American Pit Bull Terrier is slightly different, why? Because the breed was not bred as a cookie cutter breed, the breed could perform its task regardless of what it truly looked like. A breed that was so identified by Lines and breeders, by geographic location, and win and loss records, and that ever elusive trait of gameness. So the breed appeared to be so different and types and styles developed and when buyers realized they could have what they wanted in regards to appearance, the breed never truly tightened in looks.

The AKC, believes in consistency, and breed type being more of a cookie cutter variety. So they tried to make the AmStaff standard and description far more specific than the APBT standard. Nose BLACK in color only is one example of the AKC and how it tries to make things more black and white.

The AmBully in a lot of cases lacks the breed type that identifies it as a APBT, at that point I would say it is no longer a APBT, not based on pedigree but based on breed type. The 2nd aspect would be does the physical build of a dog stop it in theory from performing the task the breed was originally bred for, without a shadow of doubt. This is harder to determine in our breed but still common sense in most cases.

However the flip side is if a AmBully fought until it died, even if it died in 2 minutes would it not by definition be game? Would that make it more of a APBT? In my opinion it is based on breed type that seperates the 2 breeds.

The American Bully does have a breed standard, and there are a lot of poor examples of the American Bully, just as there are several poor examples of APBTs. To classify a breed by the worst of the breed is irresponsible and unfair to the breed as a whole.

I try to judge breeds by breed type mostly, and by pedigree secondly. If the dogs in the pedigree lack breed type consistently I would be more skeptical of the breed on paper. The American Bully, the AmStaff, and the APBT is tough on paper because they all can be bred as one of, or registered as all three in some cases. *


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

william williamson said:


> they've been at it for 20 years.


Then let me ask this, how long does/should it take? How long did it take before the orginal dogmen got what they were looking for in the APBT? 5, 10, 20 years, longer???


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*The AmBullies purpose, as it was created was to be a pet/show dog.

Same as the AmStaff to be honest, the original purpose of the AmStaff was as a show dog, per AKC.

Their are actually several dogs whose purpose was to be a pet, so the arguement that every breed can only be a breed if it performs a task that we as people deem as work, is a little cloudy in my opinion.

The only purpose that I disagree with is creating dogs for the entire purpose of just breeding dogs, and or the purpose to create financial gain! A breed soley created to make money rubs me the wrong way!

Great Post Lone Star!*


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

BullyTheKid said:


> *The majority of dog breeds in America are pets, meaning they do not perform the task in which the breed was originally bred for. The exception is actual the lap dogs that were bred to just be pets.
> 
> I disagree with a breed only being a breed if it performs the task it was originally bred for. The confusion comes with the term "gamebred" as game, relates to a trait, not a physical trait, meaning you cant see it standing still, or running, or climbing a tree. It is seen in one aspect, in relation to our breed, and 99 percent of GPB members have never seen that trait or where it is determined. (Thats a good thing).
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost: Ok, now this is more in line with my current line of thinking. Especially the part I highlighted in red. That is one of my main questions. If what a lot of people would classify as a Bully, based on looks, weight etc, if it showed it had game, would any of you consider a Bully to be an APBT??? Hypothetically, if a Bully was tested in the box against a proven APBT and won, would you then consider it an APBT?

Please, don't anyone think that I am considering trying to have Athena "proven". Just looking for info.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Then let me ask this, how long does/should it take? How long did it take before the orginal dogmen got what they were looking for in the APBT? 5, 10, 20 years, longer???


Dog men spent 100's of years blood sweat and tears preserving the APBT breeding these bulldogs to the highest standard of what they were intended for. Sadly people have destroyed the hard work put in by these old timer's through wishful thinking, bad breeding practices, and ignorance. But that's a whole different topic LOL.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

wild_deuce03 said:


> :goodpost::goodpost: Ok, now this is more in line with my current line of thinking. Especially the part I highlighted in red. That is one of my main questions. If what a lot of people would classify as a Bully, based on looks, weight etc, if it showed it had game, would any of you consider a Bully to be an APBT??? Hypothetically, if a Bully was tested in the box against a proven APBT and won, would you then consider it an APBT?
> 
> Please, don't anyone think that I am considering trying to have Athena "proven". Just looking for info.


No if an Amtaff or Bully was proven game in the box in the traditional sense... I would call it a game Bully or a game Amstaff. One dog proven game doesn't make it a different breed. Generations of dogs being bred for purpose/ability/function and upheld to a standard make a breed of dogs.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

Sadie said:


> No if an Amtaff or Bully was proven game in the box... I would call it a game Bully or a game Amstaff. One dog proven game doesn't make it a different breed. Generations of dogs being bred for purpose/ability/function and upheld to a standard make a breed of dogs.


OK. Makes sense. Man, I'm gonna take a break from this thread. My head hurts!!! LOL!


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

wild_deuce03 said:


> So if a APBT isn't "proven", then it becomes an AMSTAFF???  How does that work? If a Lab doesn't retrieve game, what does it become? If GS doesn't do protection work, what does it become? If a Border Collie doesn't herd, what does it become etc. etc.......This is where I don't get it. Some of you say that for a APBT to be considered an APBT it has to be tested and if it's not it's not really an APBT. That makes no sense to me. How can you call a dog something else just because it hasn't been "proven" in the box???
> 
> Honestly not trying to start an argument. Just trying real hard to understand this line of thinking. :hug:
> 
> ...


Just watch the dog whisperer.
People buy working dogs all the time and are stuck with the consequences.

You would not want a cattle dog, whose pedigree was proven for generations, as a house dog.
But if you buy a show stock cattle dog, he will not herd everyone (and nip at them) as much as a true working cattle dog.

The Patterdale Terriers. These things kill Mongoose for work. Again, a Patterdale who hunts (like grandpa) is high strung and not a great house dog. But he call kill animals larger than himself with no problem. Please do not put a shelter dog Patterdale, or a show stock Patterdale against a Wolverine!.

Lab, it costs big bucks for a good hunter.
A show stock Lab has a very different pedigree.

APBT

Bred by others (created by others by finding a trait unseen to the eye and easy to loose - Gameness).
We are only trying to keep it (the APBT) here (as well as create new types of dogs, like the American Bully).
How did the APBT get here?
This will always be debated.

However we CAN learn from the greats who helped create the dog.
You can (well if you want to waist your breath) argue with them. They gave us this dog! For example, Howard Henziel.

"If your breeding "Pit Bulls" for color, size, or head, then you are not breeding "pit Bulls"

Another old quote goes something like
"If I every breed THE APBT for color (or any thing other than gameness), I will make sure to call them Stafforsire Terriers, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY WILL BE IN A FEW GENERATIONS"


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

BullyTheKid said:


> *
> However the flip side is if a AmBully fought until it died, even if it died in 2 minutes would it not by definition be game? Would that make it more of a APBT? In my opinion it is based on breed type that seperates the 2 breeds.
> 
> *


*

No, not necessarily. A dog can bleed out, he can have a heart attack, etc. Being considered game does not make a dog a pit bull. And 2 minutes of suicidal drive does not make a dog game. (could make him a rottweiler though lol) Never seen a bully bred dog last long enough for me to consider him game but then again I've not seen a lot of bully dogs matched. I'd love to though. Got any links?*


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*This is where breed clarification gets confusing, a dog excelling at what its breed was bred for is not what classifies it is a breed. I like your analogy with the 4x4 but knew that the Escalade comparison would knock it out the box lol.

A stock Ford Mustang, is still a Ford Mustang although the Saleen Mustang out performs it every day, they are both Mustangs. A APBT that is dead game, is still a APBT, just as its littermate brother who is not game and is a box jumper is still a APBT. Which you decide to instill in a breeding program is up to the breeder, and what they are breeding for.

Breeds are not determined by what individual dogs can do, but by what identifies them as a breed......consistency in type and temperment. The fact that for the most part one can tell a well bred AmBully from a APBT is essential in breed seperation. Because the breeds are similar in ancestery you will get dogs that are throw backs, (More resemble APBTs) and on the APBT side you can get larger APBTs that will be lumped into the AmBully conversation, based soly on size. Both cases will be rare, but can happen and does happen.

When you look at your individual dogs papers, look at what it says in the breed box...then look at the breed standard......see if your dog matches up for the most part.... if so congrats!! You probably got what you paid for lol......if it looks totally different....say like a AmBully and matches that standard and thats what the breeder said your dog was a AmBully.....register it with the ABKC and be proud to have a AmBully and walk, feed, pick up after... and love your AmBully!!*


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## BullyTheKid (Aug 21, 2009)

*Buz no links here lol! Never heard of it happening to be honest!! Just glad you at least entertained them having drive even if it was suicidal lol!! *


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Hahahaha. Oh, some will try. No doubt about it.


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

william williamson said:


> RE, and Gotti dogs were bred from game dogs.by stock,and not so much as direct lineage.
> their were some blue staff game dogs,that Wilson saw,I think they were Ryan dogs.the yard actually maintained game bloodlines of staffs.and they were some blue dogs.
> I think alot of peoples beef is not where they came from,it's where they went.
> good ideas often become exploited when it comes to what people want and what they can do to get it.
> ...


RE:he did nothing different than game breeders did when they looked for an outcross to add some depth to their yard.

The old timers rarely sold their dogs.
When the old timers paper hung it was (for the most part) to hide the secret recipe that they just used to create an APBT was was more game than the rest. They could win more betting, etc and others would have a hard time recreating the winning dog. This, in some way, befitted the breed because only smart, highly functional dogs were used for the next step of breeding.

The old timers did not add a new bred for look and money!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

buzhunter said:


> Hahahaha. Oh, some will try. No doubt about it.


LMAO!!! They sure will :hammer::hammer::hammer:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

For those who don't know what gameness actually means :

*Gameness is not the willingness to continue fighting, in any definition. In short, gameness can somewhat be described by simply the willingness to continue, under all adversity and animosity, for the sake of improvement. However, in detail, the continuance is not to be misinterpreted as succeeding; being succeeded is the ultimate goal of gameness.

Gameness does not describe anything that is perfect, simply because there is no such thing. The strive for perfection can never quite be accomplished. But, for one to strive for near perfection, never falter on a decision made, learn from obstacles and implement the strengthening of weaknesses can be described as gameness.

The idea of gameness is to be fluent and to adapt to any task at hand.

Knowledge is knowing the path, experience is to understand it.

Gameness can not be achieved or grasped as it is not a title or an award. Gameness is a perspective and can only be perceived in a competitive event where learning from an opposing opponent is relevant.*


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

BullyTheKid said:


> *The majority of dog breeds in America are pets, meaning they do not perform the task in which the breed was originally bred for. The exception is actual the lap dogs that were bred to just be pets.
> 
> I disagree with a breed only being a breed if it performs the task it was originally bred for. The confusion comes with the term "gamebred" as game, relates to a trait, not a physical trait, meaning you cant see it standing still, or running, or climbing a tree. It is seen in one aspect, in relation to our breed, and 99 percent of GPB members have never seen that trait or where it is determined. (Thats a good thing).
> 
> ...





BullyTheKid said:


> *The AmBullies purpose, as it was created was to be a pet/show dog.
> 
> Same as the AmStaff to be honest, the original purpose of the AmStaff was as a show dog, per AKC.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

Great posts everybody! Wild Deuce great questions!


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

NorCalTim said:


> RE:he did nothing different than game breeders did when they looked for an outcross to add some depth to their yard.
> 
> The old timers rarely sold their dogs.
> When the old timers paper hung it was (for the most part) to hide the secret recipe that they just used to create an APBT was was more game than the rest. They could win more betting, etc and others would have a hard time recreating the winning dog. This, in some way, befitted the breed because only smart, highly functional dogs were used for the next step of breeding.
> ...


been there.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

BullyTheKid said:


> *This is where breed clarification gets confusing, a dog excelling at what its breed was bred for is not what classifies it is a breed. I like your analogy with the 4x4 but knew that the Escalade comparison would knock it out the box lol.*


*

Yeah, Buz certainly one upped me on that one!  LOL!




A stock Ford Mustang, is still a Ford Mustang although the Saleen Mustang out performs it every day, they are both Mustangs. A APBT that is dead game, is still a APBT, just as its littermate brother who is not game and is a box jumper is still a APBT. Which you decide to instill in a breeding program is up to the breeder, and what they are breeding for.

Breeds are not determined by what individual dogs can do, but by what identifies them as a breed......consistency in type and temperment. The fact that for the most part one can tell a well bred AmBully from a APBT is essential in breed seperation. Because the breeds are similar in ancestery you will get dogs that are throw backs, (More resemble APBTs) and on the APBT side you can get larger APBTs that will be lumped into the AmBully conversation, based soly on size. Both cases will be rare, but can happen and does happen.

Click to expand...

Makes sense.




When you look at your individual dogs papers, look at what it says in the breed box...then look at the breed standard......see if your dog matches up for the most part.... if so congrats!! You probably got what you paid for lol......if it looks totally different....say like a AmBully and matches that standard and thats what the breeder said your dog was a AmBully.....register it with the ABKC and be proud to have a AmBully and walk, feed, pick up after... and love your AmBully!!

Click to expand...

*Trust me, I love Athena no matter what she is. I'm just anxious to see her papers and ped to decide what side of the argument to fall on! LMAO!!!



Lone Star said:


> :goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:
> 
> Great posts everybody! Wild Deuce great questions!


Thanks, but I blame YOU for starting this thread and thus causing my head to hurt!!! LOL!!!


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

What a great thread! Great posts coming from both parties!


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

MISSAPBT said:


> What a great thread! Great posts coming from both parties!


Thanks. I impressed myself as well!!!  :rofl::rofl: LMAO!!!!

OK, come on. That was funny and you know it!!!


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Thanks. I impressed myself as well!!!  :rofl::rofl: LMAO!!!!
> 
> OK, come on. That was funny and you know it!!!


It is a great post.
The origins of the APBT are long....
And then there is the American Bully
The Stafford Terrier
On and on.
It does take time to (try and) understand it all.

American Dog Breeders Association


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

NorCalTim said:


> It is a great post.
> The origins of the APBT are long....
> And then there is the American Bully
> The Stafford Terrier
> ...


Yeah, I've kind of figured that out. I'm just starting to crack this nut. Really appreciate the conversation back and forth with everyone.


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