# Any body know a non-DA game breed bloodline



## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Now before everyone gets up set I understand that most dogs have some level of da but while reading a book by colby they talked about some of the old game dogs being fine with other dogs and not even getting to excited in the box until the work had to be done and afterwards the dog would be just fine with other dogs again. Something about it wasnt until they were squared(sp) off in the box that they would turn on. Since most agree that da has nothing to do with gameness I was wondering if any bloodlines were like this today cause I would like to look into them or learn more about those bloddlines. any help would be nice


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## fishinrob

If you raise a gamebred dog from a pup, and take him to puppy training classes and teach him to socialize with other dogs from the beginning, you can do it with any line. I wouldn't trust them alone with another dog, because all it takes is a spark. An example, my two gamebred dogs are fine for 2 years. They're looking out my front window and a rabbit is sitting right there. Shaking and whining at the bunny and one bumps the other. Game on.


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## Padlock

the best analogy i can give would be along the lines of
wanting a slow greyhound, a trail hound without vocal cords 
or a nose-less bloodhound.
when selecting a breed of dog one must consider their options
very carefully. the game bred pit bull is not for the novice dog
owner, and i would strongly advise going another route until
you've acquired the necessary skills to properly contain and
responsibly own said animal.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

one you need to read my post yes the title may have been wrong since I meant less-da and my post was about colby discribing pit dogs that were not very da until in the pit not I do not plan on getting another dog till later since I have my young dog already
And a better example would be of wanting something like a boxer will to fight may even like to but not trying to attack eveything . In the book he said newer dogmen thought a dog that was da was game but he didnt agree and that it wasnt always like this so my question was if any breeders tried to follow this line of thought.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

fishinrob said:


> If you raise a gamebred dog from a pup, and take him to puppy training classes and teach him to socialize with other dogs from the beginning, you can do it with any line.


Thanks this is the type of info I was wonder about. now after the rabbit did the dogs get along after that


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## fishinrob

They had 2 breaking stick moments. Crated or separated when gone because you just never know.


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## Kayo45

All gamebred bulldogs have a level of DA to them. Some go insane at the site of another dog while others will tolerate other dogs while not in a [] as long as they do not try to challenge them. Not sure about specific lines throwing specifically situationally aggressive bulldogs but Gambler's Virgil was great with other dogs and animals while not in the [] and heard that that was passed into his offspring


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Kayo45 said:


> All gamebred bulldogs have a level of DA to them. Some go insane at the site of another dog while others will tolerate other dogs while not in a [] as long as they do not try to challenge them. Not sure about specific lines throwing specifically situationally aggressive bulldogs but Gambler's Virgil was great with other dogs and animals while not in the [] and heard that that was passed into his offspring


So it would be something that a person would have to track and learn about the individual dogs and then hope for the best.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

any body know any more dogs like this


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## junkyard

To answer your title question, there is no such line.

There have been plenty of pit dogs that were "calm" around other dogs but not "da".

A dog that will not start a fight but will finish one, or needs only a little encouragment is still a da dog if it wasnt a da dog it wouldnt do anything, this would make it a "cold" dog.

A cold dog is a cold dog, but like there are degrees of gameness, the are degrees of how cold a dog can be[colds cold if you ask me but these days alot of people define it differently].

What you are asking about is realy if there are any lines that are not as "fight crazy" ie lunging and screaming at the site of another dog, whinning and getting all riled up simply because it can see another canine there.
And again with this there is no such line. It realy all down to the individual dog.
The best chance is to go to a show and find someone who has nothing but show dogs in their peds for a few gens, in only a few gens gamness is nearly completely lost and the da level does seem to go down, there are a bunch of people down here who have bought dogs with gamedogs after the fourth gen and they act like a standard lab , andhave regular "play dates" with their dogs. I have had one cold dog in my care and it was a pleasure to have around quite a difference to the others, ive seen a couple non "fight crazy" dogs and they were hard to look after as they can trick you into not being as vigilant , one slip of your mind and its on still.

At least with a fight crazy dog you know what its agenda is all the time.

Some old dog me wouldnt evr tolerate a fight crazy dog and saw it as a sign of being a rank cur.


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## Padlock

"Some old dog me wouldnt evr tolerate a fight crazy dog and saw it as a sign of being a rank cur."



tell that to CHINAMAN OR BULLYSON. :snap:


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## junkyard

Thats why i said "some" . 

Was it pit general that swallowed a peice of his oppisition during a match?


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## Padlock

roger that...but i guess a fight crazy dog is better than a cold
mess. lol at least the wiring is right.

i never heard about "the generals" snack...lol
let me guess... ouchies!


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## junkyard

Well yeah apparently he took a chunk out of an opponent during a match and swallowed it skin and all before taking another hold!
He also tryed to eat a bitch they were going to put him over, started off ok and when they came back he was trying to eat her alive, crazy mofo to not be put off by the heat.

Ive heard about an idiot taking a dog in heat to a match and she was in the back tray area next to a male for the entire drive to the match which was eight hours, by the time the male got his turn he was that stuck on the want to mount he got his rear handed to him and the fella ended up going home with one less dog. 
The idiot friend nearly lost his dog when everyone else there found out why said dog wasnt "right" in the box. 

So they nearly went home with no dogs.


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## Padlock

the dog in heat scenario should have been common sense to
not ever letting a match dog be with-in any distance of a female in heat
during a keep...not to mention riding shotgun to the show with one. lol


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

junkyard said:


> At least with a fight crazy dog you know what its agenda is all the time.
> 
> Some old dog me wouldnt evr tolerate a fight crazy dog and saw it as a sign of being a rank cur.


well while ready the colby book i read something like this and it got me curious if any one tried to focus on this type of dog 
thanks for your comments


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

any one know the names of some good game dogs that were less fight crazy that I could look up.


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## william williamson

Santa's Gr Ch Mongoose 
Santa's Gr Ch Mongoose 
Bred by Rushin Kennels, Mongoose or "Goose" as he is commonly called won his first three for the Havana Boys. Havana Chico ran into some problems and had to sell him, which is when we acquired him and finished him off for his Grand Championship. 

It is hard to describe Goose’s "Pit Manor". You would put him in the box and he seemed to know that he was going to win. While the other dog looked angry and anxious, Goose always seemed calm and determined. Once the ref. announced "Release", he would trot at a medium pace and meet the dog in the center. It was once they met Goose showed his true splendor. Goose was the kind of a dog that fought from his heart straight to his mouth, not the other way around like a lot of hardmouthed dogs do. He would walk into ten hits just to get his one, and when he did the other dog would look up at you, his eyes seeming to say, "Why couldn’t I have been born a Poodle?" He never shook real hard or bit sporadically. He would just grab a leg and sink his teeth into it until it broke, then he’d move to another leg. After that, if the other dog was willing or able to scratch, he would hit the chest. This would accomplish putting the dog out of his misery most times, except for the case when the other dog had enough juice left in him to jump the wall. 

Goose was not only tremendous in the box, but he was good around people too. He always seemed to be relaxed, not barking much either. He’d sit and let birds bathe in his water bowl, and roll on his back to let puppies nip at his chest and his feet. And as soon as you showed him the mill, he would jump right on and practically condition himself, hardly stopping to take a deep breath. You couldn’t ask for a better dog, he was an "Ace", and anyone who has seen him go will agree, I’m sure. 

Goose is currently under the watchful eye of a close friend, Mr. Bill. Bill’s medical knowledge has made it possible for Goose to still be with us. I am glad to say, Goose is alive and well because of it. Grand Champion Goose now waits to be bred, and have his offspring make him a Register of Merit. Of the dogs he has already put on the ground there are several winners. Hemlock’s Badger 1xw in 1 hr. 14 min., Havana Chico’s Goose Jr. 1xw in 3hrs!!!, and Mr. Bill’s Ms. Goose 2xw. 

Yours in sport, 

Santa & The Heartbreak Kid 

Jersey Boy’s Maniac 23 minutes 32 

Cuban Cowboy’s Bullet 14 minutes 34 

Brown Shoes’ Champ 25 minutes 33.5 

Upstate Kennels’ Nate 1 hr. 14 minutes 35 

Frank P’s Benny 28 minutes 35.5 


Gr Ch Mongoose's Online Pedigree 
SANTA'S MONGOOSE 


_________________________________


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## Indigo Bully Connection

junkyard said:


> A dog that will not start a fight but will finish one, or needs only a little encouragment is still a da dog if it wasnt a da dog it wouldnt do anything, this would make it a "cold" dog.


I'm sorry, but i really disagree with this statement.

Just because your dog fights back or finishes a dog does not make it DA. It happens often that a dog will turn on in the right situations, but it doesn't classify a dog as DA in my book.

A cold dog is a cold dog and IMO it doesn't fall into the comparison chart for me.



junkyard said:


> It realy all down to the individual dog.


This statement is what I will stand behind.


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## Kayo45

Some dogs need a "bump" to get started, after that they are DA from that point on if they start up. So Junkyard is correct.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Kayo45 said:


> Some dogs need a "bump" to get started, after that they are DA from that point on if they start up. So Junkyard is correct.


Which part is correct Kayo? Dogs who fight back are DA or that it's based off of the individual dog?


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## Kayo45

Dave Y Am I STILL Banned? said:


> Which part is correct Kayo? Dogs who fight back are DA or that it's based off of the individual dog?


Well all this happens during the schooling process. If they begin to fight back, tehn they would seperate the dogs and see if it scratches. If he doesn't, he is considered a "rough cur". And yes, it is based on each individual dog


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Kayo45 said:


> Well all this happens during the schooling process. If they begin to fight back, tehn they would seperate the dogs and see if it scratches. If he doesn't, he is considered a "rough cur". And yes, it is based on each individual dog


Do you feel that a dog who would scratch is definitely deemed as DA?

well, are we talking about DA or dog fighting (in a historical manner of course)?

I mean, where is the line for prey drive and DA?


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## Sadie

A cold dog is not going to engage period it never turns on ...


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Sadie said:


> A cold dog is not going to engage period it never turns on ...


yeah, we already covered that. (not being a smart alec). I was just trying to understand every ones definition of DA around here.


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## Sadie

Basically a DA dog is a dog who will engage if given the opportunity ...


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## Kayo45

Dave Y Am I STILL Banned? said:


> Do you feel that a dog who would scratch is definitely deemed as DA?
> 
> well, are we talking about DA or dog fighting (in a historical manner of course)?
> 
> I mean, where is the line for prey drive and DA?


Yea, if he scratches then he is showing interest in the fight.

And I am talking DA but like I said, if he is only fighting because the dog is scarred then its a rough cur. He may "cur snap" but curs can be DA. But when dealing with this breed, DA is to be expected and is apart of the breed. And there is a HUGE line between prey drive and DA. Not sure where you are going with that


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Sadie said:


> Basically a DA dog is a dog who will engage if given the opportunity ...


well, i mean what is your opportunity? Is the opportunity the site of another dog, the smell, the touch, the bite of another dog?

while watching other working dogs in drive every week... on top of having to manage my dog who i see in a different drive when he sees another animal behaviorally are different.


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## Kayo45

Dave Y Am I STILL Banned? said:


> well, i mean what is your opportunity? Is the opportunity the site of another dog, the smell, the touch, the bite of another dog?
> 
> while watching other working dogs in drive every week... on top of having to manage my dog who i see in a different drive when he sees another animal behaviorally are different.


When talking about Apbt's, the opportunity would be anytime they see another dog


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## Sadie

A dog who has turned on will want to engage at the mere sight of another dog. You let the dog go and it will fight. That to me is a DA dog


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Kayo45 said:


> Yea, if he scratches then he is showing interest in the fight.
> 
> And I am talking DA but like I said, if he is only fighting because the dog is scarred then its a rough cur. He may "cur snap" but curs can be DA. But when dealing with this breed, DA is to be expected and is apart of the breed. And there is a HUGE line between prey drive and DA. Not sure where you are going with that


well, is it THAT particular fight or is it a bigger picture like all dogs? I reckon different scenarios bring different reactions out of dogs.

I've been around the breed type long enough to be on top of my toes for DA. Four of my seven dogs are DA (two of the dogs that are not are different breeds), i don't put them in situations to fail, so i don't want to portray the wrong message.

What is the difference between the two for you?


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## Sadie

BTW WB Shana LOL


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Kayo45 said:


> When talking about Apbt's, the opportunity would be anytime they see another dog





Sadie said:


> A dog who has turned on will want to engage at the mere sight of another dog. You let the dog go and it will fight. That to me is a DA dog


fair enough, I do agree with that to an extent. Thanks for the great conversation guys, it's been a while since i've had a brain stimulating dog conversation and it was much needed


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Sadie said:


> BTW WB Shana LOL


Thanks Tara


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## Kayo45

Dave Y Am I STILL Banned? said:


> well, is it THAT particular fight or is it a bigger picture like all dogs? I reckon different scenarios bring different reactions out of dogs.
> 
> I've been around the breed type long enough to be on top of my toes for DA. Four of my seven dogs are DA (two of the dogs that are not are different breeds), i don't put them in situations to fail, so i don't want to portray the wrong message.
> 
> What is the difference between the two for you?


Should be no different regardless of the dog


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## Indigo Bully Connection

well, imo... Aggression and Drive are two different things... pupils dilate in drive complete focus is achieved. Aggression IMO is not.


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## Sadie

Prey Drive and Dog Aggression are def completely different things and shouldn't be confused.


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## junkyard

That to me is pretty much my dog lol, hasnt been any different since she was three, cant see it waining till her heart stops beating.


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## MISSAPBT

I haven't read the wntire thread but...

Id say you could pick up a cold dog, BUT that dog may switch on at any age, you may have a cold dog for 5 years then one day that dog may switch on. And you may find that with majority of GB litters


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## Sadie

I agree there are late starters honey bunch was one of them she didn't turn on until like after 3


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## MISSAPBT

But if we are talking the whole 'game' is not aggression then gamedogs do not show signs of growling, snapping, barking ect, but get them too close to that other dog and its pretty much over. Gamebred i cannot speak for as you will get, switched on, cur or cold dog out of the pups.


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## Kayo45

If I remember right, Dibo didnt start up until he was 7 LOL


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## Sadie

Yeah some game dog's were cold as ice and then bam they turned on. It can happen at anytime with these dogs


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## MISSAPBT

Correct me if i am wrong but was Jeep a late started too? 5years?


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## Sadie

Yeah Jeep was a late starter as well ... Gotta watch them jeep dogs LMAO!!


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## junkyard

i had a dog that was the equivalent of a wall jumping cur. Didnt want anything to do with any dogs at all not even contact, at four years old he turned completely around and was a pretty da dog. Awesome with people and kids and realy sooky with any females, but around any dogs was never an option.


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## Kayo45

Seems like quite a few of the greats started late. Except Mayday


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## Sadie

Well you know Mayday is the exception hahaha ... Little booger was marking his territory as soon as he hit victor's yard ...


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## aus_staffy

junkyard said:


> Thats why i said "some" .
> 
> Was it pit general that swallowed a peice of his oppisition during a match?


I think it was Alvin the Dog.


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## Sadie

What about bad rosemary ripping a chunk out of that dogs chest OMG! That was insane.


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## Kayo45

Sadie said:


> What about bad rosemary ripping a chunk out of that dogs chest OMG! That was insane.


You could see that dogs heart it was such a huge hole. Bad Rosemary has got to have the worst ability and wrestling skills I ever seen in a dog but she sure could close her mouth LOL


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Sadie said:


> BTW WB Shana LOL


is this another dog we will call not fight crazy?


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

william williamson said:


> Santa's Gr Ch Mongoose
> Santa's Gr Ch Mongoose
> Bred by Rushin Kennels, Mongoose or "Goose" as he is commonly called won his first three for the Havana Boys. Havana Chico ran into some problems and had to sell him, which is when we acquired him and finished him off for his Grand Championship.
> 
> It is hard to describe Goose's "Pit Manor". You would put him in the box and he seemed to know that he was going to win. While the other dog looked angry and anxious, Goose always seemed calm and determined. Once the ref. announced "Release", he would trot at a medium pace and meet the dog in the center. It was once they met Goose showed his true splendor. Goose was the kind of a dog that fought from his heart straight to his mouth, not the other way around like a lot of hardmouthed dogs do. He would walk into ten hits just to get his one, and when he did the other dog would look up at you, his eyes seeming to say, "Why couldn't I have been born a Poodle?" He never shook real hard or bit sporadically. He would just grab a leg and sink his teeth into it until it broke, then he'd move to another leg. After that, if the other dog was willing or able to scratch, he would hit the chest. This would accomplish putting the dog out of his misery most times, except for the case when the other dog had enough juice left in him to jump the wall.
> 
> Goose was not only tremendous in the box, but he was good around people too. He always seemed to be relaxed, not barking much either. He'd sit and let birds bathe in his water bowl, and roll on his back to let puppies nip at his chest and his feet. And as soon as you showed him the mill, he would jump right on and practically condition himself, hardly stopping to take a deep breath. You couldn't ask for a better dog, he was an "Ace", and anyone who has seen him go will agree, I'm sure.
> 
> Goose is currently under the watchful eye of a close friend, Mr. Bill. Bill's medical knowledge has made it possible for Goose to still be with us. I am glad to say, Goose is alive and well because of it. Grand Champion Goose now waits to be bred, and have his offspring make him a Register of Merit. Of the dogs he has already put on the ground there are several winners. Hemlock's Badger 1xw in 1 hr. 14 min., Havana Chico's Goose Jr. 1xw in 3hrs!!!, and Mr. Bill's Ms. Goose 2xw.
> 
> Yours in sport,
> 
> Santa & The Heartbreak Kid
> 
> Jersey Boy's Maniac 23 minutes 32
> 
> Cuban Cowboy's Bullet 14 minutes 34
> 
> Brown Shoes' Champ 25 minutes 33.5
> 
> Upstate Kennels' Nate 1 hr. 14 minutes 35
> 
> Frank P's Benny 28 minutes 35.5
> 
> Gr Ch Mongoose's Online Pedigree
> SANTA'S MONGOOSE
> 
> _________________________________


This more along the lines of what I was talking about. I dont think this type of dog is realy a late starterbut may be you guys could shed some light on this. My question though is more for informational perpuses as I will not be getting another dog for a while no room or money for another animal yet


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## william williamson

late starters,are they really late? or are they more of A classic warrior?
I know from all my days fighting and training that the one thing we do/did was the feeling out process.I have always been the guy that could overwhelm someone and finish quick.yet,to me the fight is/was about the engagement and all that it brings.
dogs are as good as us and maybe better in the form of being tacticicans.
animals are more in tune with survival than we are.
alot of the great dogmen thought like the dog,from the survival aspect.
then you got dogs that guys,can't get to go,the dog goes to the animal minded,and the dog is brought along by the nature and personality of the handler.
it's A known fact,theirs dogs that have been sold repeatedly off bad rolls that finally turned on.age is A small precursor,breeding is the genetic part,and theirs the good part,they hit their stride with the right person.
my stepfather was a jockey,and I learned so much from the track. the grooms,the jockeys and the trainers.
then I got into game dogs,and guys like old man chavis,fayeteville willie,the jacobs,locklears,my locale guys,then you hear the louisiana guy. they just sounded back what I'd learned in A different realm,yet it paralelled my childhood with horses and hounds.


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## LadyRampage

I think most in this thread have a concept on what DA is BUT I have to say that alot of people only associate DA with the outward crazy lunging snapping, barking and biting. 

With that said, I've had so many different temperaments in APBTs over the years.. From the outward crazy out of control DA, to the calmly sit no reaction til crowded or engaged, to all the stages in between. I happen to prefer the calm side of the group. The outward aggressive, lunging acting crazy dogs just don't impress me the older I get... That being said my GR CH Jewels bitch was a complete nut in the ring (ADBA Confo) every time she even saw another dog. Then you see my CH Maggie dog who is the ultimate calm dog, walks nicely on the lead, doesn't fire off, stands calmly, but crowd her and she will completely change in the blink of an eye. Her son is the exact same way. Many people have been shocked to see either one of these dogs fire, because it is instant and hard to handle or calm when it happens..

I've had the happy dogs, the ones that instead of getting excited with displays of lunging,barking,growls, snarling, they do the happy dance... jumping tail going 100mph..

I've currently got a 6 month old pup that doesn't move, literally.... He goes completely still, eyes focused, and waits... whether it is flirt pole, or another dog walking by.. he is going to be one intense dog in the future..

I don't think there is a one so to say, but a type of dog you would be looking for. An experienced breeder who has several generations or generations of experience would be where you could start to find that calmer dog you are interested in.


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## echs332000

Chino is pretty weird, i know he has a small level of DA, but it totally depends on the size of the dog. For example, my friend has a small shepard mix, that dog bullies chino like nothing else. But if a larger dog, like a rotty, dobie, etc etc, chino will stand his ground and is the one looking for the fight....


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## Sadie

non-DA game breed bloodline? No such thing ... If your not interested in a DA dog the APBT is not the right choice of breed for you. Anything game bred is going to be DA there is a slight chance you might luck up on a cold dog but that is not something you would want to happen on purpose cold dogs are culls


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> Now before everyone gets up set I understand that most dogs have some level of da but while reading a book by colby they talked about some of the old game dogs being fine with other dogs and not even getting to excited in the box until the work had to be done and afterwards the dog would be just fine with other dogs again.





Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> one you need to read my post yes the title may have been wrong since I meant less-da and my post was about colby discribing pit dogs that were not very da until in the pit.





Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> well while ready the colby book i read something like this and it got me curious if any one tried to focus on this type of dog





Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> any one know the names of some good game dogs that were less fight crazy that I could look up.





william williamson said:


> Santa's Gr Ch Mongoose
> It is hard to describe Goose's "Pit Manor". You would put him in the box and he seemed to know that he was going to win. While the other dog looked angry and anxious, Goose always seemed calm and determined. Once the ref. announced "Release", he would trot at a medium pace and meet the dog in the center. It was once they met Goose showed his true splendor.
> Goose was not only tremendous in the box, but he was good around people too. He always seemed to be relaxed, not barking much either. He'd sit and let birds bathe in his water bowl, and roll on his back to let puppies nip at his chest and his feet. And as soon as you showed him the mill, he would jump right on and practically condition himself, hardly stopping to take a deep breath.





Sadie said:


> non-DA game breed bloodline?


please read a least a few of the threads yes I understand the title is 
missleading but in the very first thread I corrected this. sorry I can not change the title I had thought about deleting the post and reposting but since I explained my self better in the first post I thought that would be enough I guess not. But at least a few read the post not just the title and understood what I meant


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Kayo45 said:


> All gamebred bulldogs have a level of DA to them. Some go insane at the site of another dog while others will tolerate other dogs while not in a [] as long as they do not try to challenge them. Not sure about specific lines throwing specifically situationally aggressive bulldogs but Gambler's Virgil was great with other dogs and animals while not in the [] and heard that that was passed into his offspring


another one that undertood what i meant


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## Sadie

I have heard of some game dogs who got along with other dogs outside the box ... not exactly sure why that is but I have heard of some who were like that. I don't think it has any bearing on a specific bloodline rather than just the dog itself.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

ya thats what its sounding like more and more plus I think it was junkyman brought up a good point about haveing a dog like this could lead to relaxed rules and ending up in trouble were as a very da dog you know always to be on your gaurd thanks though anyways


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## Firehazard

nebbletts, had some cannibals; some of which went right into colby's stock, DA is spoken in slang term when so said:"DA has nothing to do with being game" (which is saying, Mean dogs are not game dogs) DA does exist but WHAT your talking about is unadulterated PREY DRIVE.. The kind of drive that isn't concerned with anything but conquering an oponant when givin, rather it be put on a bear, pig, or proven vs game  

I've had several dogs from my Jocko stuff that tolerated everydog except another APBT as if it could tell, from same stock dogs that were cool until bit and then they turned into a recogning.. My favorite dog on dog behavior never came off my Jocko stuff other than those my Jocko stuff loved to eat dogs.. until I got this lil Hoagie dog and he is like a machine, get it, drop it, .. he listens, had kennel fight and I grabbed Spike and said "AAHT" Hogdog drops his hold and looks at me calmly while I pluck spike, then Hogdog(Hoagie) went right back to making it a play game.. Turk is the same way and he was sired by Hoagie.
I'd say calm dogs are a genetic trait, at the same time DA will always be existant in gamebred dogs because until proven its not game its just DA, and if it has proven parents you have a gamebred dog, this is the case as long as the dog has proven dogs throughout 3rd gen, get to the 4th with out proving or taken to a proven line, and you might as well be breeding show dogs. JMO Lots of great winners from no CH peds, of course it aint the 70's or earlier anymore is it? hahaha
Jocko/(Boudreaux )dogs are a solid mix, real sound and mindful dogs. 

Reality is the game bred dogs are just gamebred not game until proven; which can't legally be in the States of course. 

If you get a gamebred APBT expect DA to a variable degree; the best thing to do with game dogs is never trust them NOT to fight


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## Black Rabbit

You can take the dog outta of the fight but you can't take the fight outta the dog, if the APBT lost it's drive and had no degree of DA would it still be an APBT?


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## Indigo Bully Connection

kg420 said:


> You can take the dog outta of the fight but you can't take the fight outta the dog, if the APBT lost it's drive and had no degree of DA would it still be an APBT?


yeah, our bulldogs weren't always DA, they ran the streets, survival of the fittest. Colbys book is an interesting read if you're ever able to get your paws on a copy.


----------



## william williamson

Firehazard said:


> .
> 
> Reality is the game bred dogs are just gamebred not game until proven; which can't legally be in the States of course.


ain't northern Idaho close to southern Canada?BWAHAHA:flush:


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Dave Y Am I STILL Banned? said:


> yeah, our bulldogs weren't always DA, they ran the streets, survival of the fittest. Colbys book is an interesting read if you're ever able to get your paws on a copy.


ya and thats what got me interested bc he also said a dog tring to attack everything wouldnt last long so to me then there has to be some seperation between da and gameness he also said that the newer dogmen started to breed da dogs thinking this was game


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## Firehazard

WW.. States tighten dogfighting laws... (idaho) we hunt predators with some hot effin dogs, there are hounds that kill each other in kennel fights up here bear dogs of diferent sorts do the same, and of course theres the APBTs.. Have to be gambling and betting with a few other impliments.

Naa.. Canada is just 90miles.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> ya and thats what got me interested bc he also said a dog tring to attack everything wouldnt last long so to me then there has to be some seperation between da and gameness he also said that the newer dogmen started to breed da dogs thinking this was game


the term Game has nothing to do with the term Dog Aggression.

Game: a dog who does not give up in the box despite what damage is done

Dog Aggression: Hatred of other dogs

Drive: is extreme excitement/focus


----------



## MISSAPBT

Dave Y Am I STILL Banned? said:


> the term Game has nothing to do with the term Dog Aggression.
> 
> Game: a dog who does not give up in the box despite what damage is done
> 
> Dog Aggression: Hatred of other dogs
> 
> Drive: is extreme excitement/focus


Great post!

What sexist DA called hehe, Grace HATES any female dog


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## Indigo Bully Connection

MISSAPBT said:


> Great post!
> 
> What sexist DA called hehe, Grace HATES any female dog


I like to call those dogs... picky lmFAO


----------



## MISSAPBT

Dave Y Am I STILL Banned? said:


> I like to call those dogs... picky lmFAO


DAHA, well ive only had her around two males that she has grown up with, she may not like stranger males.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

MISSAPBT said:


> DAHA, well ive only had her around two males that she has grown up with, she may not like stranger males.


lol she probably wouldn't. I know even cree fires up at bitches occasionally at Sch, but he's ok with all of the females i have here (5)


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## Kayo45

Fb's ch Bolero was another one that was also kept in the house with another gamedog and was ok. There's a pic of her laying on the couch with another dog floatin' around somewhere


----------



## junkyard

Do not ever ever ever ever , give any trust to a wiggle but dog who wags wiggles and acts toward another dog as it does when you come home from work and its happy to see you, in my experience they are the worst and when that range closes chances are your trust slips a little and you have a scrap on your hands, i call these dogs the "salesman" type, they will sell you some slight comfort then whack on as soon as they get the chance, Some dogs love it but its allmost like these dogs love it like a sicko.


----------



## junkyard

It wasnt a dog, but gr ch Virgil had a feline friend he would play and sleep with in the house during his career as a pitdog.


----------



## MISSAPBT

junkyard said:


> It wasnt a dog, but gr ch Virgil had a feline friend he would play and sleep with in the house during his career as a pitdog.


Thats too funny.

Not gamebred but my brothers apbt and a friends (ex friends actually) will happily play with my neices gineapig (sp) so stupid but so funny.


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## LadyRampage

Have to say... years ago before the coyotes took care of the wild barn cats, during the cold months it wasn't unusual to see cats curled up in the barrels with certain dogs... course if the dogs saw me they would make a great showing of "chasing" those cats off...lmao Course it came from a mother cat teaching her kittens to jump into the puppy pen and eating with them when everyone was just weaned..lol I could never get close to those cats either..lol


----------



## aus_staffy

junkyard said:


> It wasnt a dog, but gr ch Virgil had a feline friend he would play and sleep with in the house during his career as a pitdog.


There's a pic of that on here somewhere.



junkyard said:


> i call these dogs the "salesman" type, they will sell you some slight comfort then whack on as soon as they get the chance, Some dogs love it but its allmost like these dogs love it like a sicko.


Hahaha! Salesman dogs. I love it.


----------



## Kayo45

junkyard said:


> It wasnt a dog, but gr ch Virgil had a feline friend he would play and sleep with in the house during his career as a pitdog.












and here he is with his kids


----------



## Sadie

Now that's way freaking cute!


----------



## Kayo45

Picture is blurry but it is Bolero on the couch and Suicide standing infront of her










Playing together


----------



## Sadie

kayo thanks for posting those pics up


----------



## Kayo45

No problem


----------



## Old_Blood

Some Stratton dogs calm, confident, sensible. Though not all!
I've pics but my Photobucket isn't easy to access on my phone.
Also certain Boudreaux dogs, though all mine were directly related so can't say for others bred different. They also seemed late starters, BUT still after being turned on could be ok with others but sometimes not so its risky.

My friend has some Norrod crosses and they can get along. There are two individuals (m/f) and they can be around eachother just fine it seems.

As far as getting a few generations show bred dog that is not DA, well good luck with that is all I can say. Lol

DA isn't all the same. There are different types looking at the trigger and demeanor of the dog will tell you that. Most DA dogs of display more outward aggression and also don't really like to fight (some may not want to at all). Within our breeds for some it is a great desire, they have an urge to (like a coonhound does to go for game, like a herding breed is driven to display herding behavior). It is dispayed in some as actually being very similar to prey drive. The same actions are displays, the excitement, tail wagging, shaking and whining. The predatory behavior. The dog simply thinks and wants badly to make contact with the other dog, to hold, shake and kill (if allowed/able to) that other dog. And yes some have gon as far as consumption. A down (almost) dead dog or one which flesh is ripped off. For others once the other dog is unresponsive and releases the hold and the other dog makes even a slight movement the attack will resume.This is a prey driven predator instinct.

Comparatively the Malinois is the same way with a man in protection or sport work. (In which they are working in a prey driven mode). The actions of these dogs, certain Pits and a dog dying to Chase a squirrel are all very similar. The level of intensity that is reach when the dog is restrained also continues to increase. Prey drive isn't always confined to small furries.


----------



## william williamson

Old_Blood said:


> Comparatively the Malinois is the same way with a man in protection or sport work. (In which they are working in a prey driven mode). The actions of these dogs, certain Pits and a dog dying to Chase a squirrel are all very similar. The level of intensity that is reach when the dog is restrained also continues to increase. Prey drive isn't always confined to small furries.


please explain this in your words.
I so often try to tell folks about my dislike for agressive guard work and pits.
yet you seem to say this differently,I get so defensive right out of the gate.
using an animals prey drive for protection is leaps and bounds far more worthy of A pits lack toward human agression, and working off the predascious nature vs. the provoked agression.
I'm not crazy about that whole attack, kill aspect of guard work for pits.
thanks,


----------



## Firehazard

william williamson said:


> please explain this in your words.
> I so often try to tell folks about my dislike for agressive guard work and pits.
> yet you seem to say this differently,I get so defensive right out of the gate.
> using an animals prey drive for protection is leaps and bounds far more worthy of A pits lack toward human agression, and working off the predascious nature vs. the provoked agression.
> I'm not crazy about that whole attack, kill aspect of guard work for pits.
> thanks,


:goodpost: yep yep.. There are more attacks on children by K9s every year than APBTs, and most APBT attacks are actually a mis identification of breed, raning from rottwellier to mastiff and mixed breed dogs as well.. I used to train K9s and do not anymore because of the crap.. If a K9 bites a civilian it gets more training and if a civilian shoots or hurts that dog its attacking a police officer, if that K9 bites an officer it gets shot and replaced.. BAH..

I personally have seen 3 victims from being attacked by police dogs and NOTHING happens to the dog and they WERE ALL SEVERE!! 2 GSD's and 1 malinois (which is only pedigreed in this country) They come with a certificate of pure malinois working dog from deutchland. and they ARE they ARE a perfect blend of APBT and GSD THATS THE SECRET that they DONT want ANYONE TO KNOW... A PERFECT WAR DOG! I agree with WW, no APBT should be used or bred for guard work... OF COURSE ya'll who know me know I don't include them whoppers, Chaos, Bully dogs.. all of those would be great protection dogs.. We strive to have people friendly game dogs, one man eatin dog jacks up the bloodline for LONG time.


----------



## william williamson

Firehazard said:


> :goodpost: yep yep.. There are more attacks on children by K9s every year than APBTs, and most APBT attacks are actually a mis identification of breed, raning from rottwellier to mastiff and mixed breed dogs as well.. I used to train K9s and do not anymore because of the crap.. If a K9 bites a civilian it gets more training and if a civilian shoots or hurts that dog its attacking a police officer, if that K9 bites an officer it gets shot and replaced.. BAH..
> 
> I personally have seen 3 victims from being attacked by police dogs and NOTHING happens to the dog and they WERE ALL SEVERE!! 2 GSD's and 1 malinois (which is only pedigreed in this country) They come with a certificate of pure malinois working dog from deutchland. and they ARE they ARE a perfect blend of APBT and GSD THATS THE SECRET that they DONT want ANYONE TO KNOW... A PERFECT WAR DOG! I agree with WW, no APBT should be used or bred for guard work... OF COURSE ya'll who know me know I don't include them whoppers, Chaos, Bully dogs.. all of those would be great protection dogs.. We strive to have people friendly game dogs, one man eatin dog jacks up the bloodline for LONG time.


I have been researching Malinois,since I'll be going to costa I want A more universal dog.they fit the total bill(so far).
I researched the ACD for 7 years before getting one.which means I bought and read books,talked to vets,made phone calls to ACD rescues out west etc. etc. this was before the net.
now I am all over doing the right thing to qualify the dog to my needs.
now,imagine this,were everyone to do this for the pit,we'd not be in the cruch we are with them.
on A side notei'll have A pit with the mally as I do A pit and ACD now. great duo and team.

PS K9's that wantonly and wrongfully attack,they are no different than the many rogue officers that are present in ever rising numbers in law enforcement.and they can do it because of Govt. sanctioning and protection.


----------



## Firehazard

well put.. rogue officers.. LOL 

Good luck in Costa Rica, how far out?(timeline)


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

Great post old blood..

I do have to go on record my feelings on the whole using APBTs in bite sports...

I think it's a wonderful thing for the right handler. I don't believe every APBT owner needs to do something like this, but if it were up to me... I would have more of us out there on the field. When you're in a training atmosphere such as a club you learn so much about dogs and their behavior thus making you a better handler. A good/responsible handler is all that you'd be looking for right? You put your dog in situations to get fired up every weekend so you know your dogs triggers MUCH better than if you never trained before or attempted half @s$. As a handler of your dog you need to know your dog in your home before stepping out on that field. There are certain temperaments that I don't think should be used in bite sports... both human and dog.


----------



## Firehazard

I think the bite sports that are Catch dog and predator control bite sports are great for APBTs, I think that a true APBT is the ABSOLUTE BEST POLICE DOG.. HOWEVER .. If an APBT is used for a police dog it should be spayed/neutered and NO APBT should be bred for K9 work, when I say APBT I mean gamebred dogs... If someone takes a well bred game dog, sterilized it and makes it a K9 then thats commendable, but to breed a dog that can fight for 2hrs to be a man dog.. tsk tsk tsk.. plenty of good man dogs out there, no reason to give ppl a reason to fear the APBT by making it a K9 dog of choice, because just like the herding Alastian Wolfdog (german shepherd dog) it will be bred for those war dog like traits.. bah.. who needs that?


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

Firehazard said:


> I think the bite sports that are Catch dog and predator control bite sports are great for APBTs, I think that a true APBT is the ABSOLUTE BEST POLICE DOG.. HOWEVER .. If an APBT is used for a police dog it should be spayed/neutered and NO APBT should be bred for K9 work, when I say APBT I mean gamebred dogs... If someone takes a well bred game dog, sterilized it and makes it a K9 then thats commendable, but to breed a dog that can fight for 2hrs to be a man dog.. tsk tsk tsk.. plenty of good man dogs out there, no reason to give ppl a reason to fear the APBT by making it a K9 dog of choice, because just like the herding Alastian Wolfdog (german shepherd dog) it will be bred for those war dog like traits.. bah.. who needs that?


I guess i have to ask you this. Do you feel that the kennels that your previous work used for dogs bred for human aggression? If that is your foothold I can see where you are coming from. When we train protection, socialization is just as important as the bite work. Our dogs socialize and get loved on by the same helpers that were just getting their total body work out slinging a dog everywhere.

However, I could not see someone who both truly loved the breed for what it is as well as the bite sport they are participating in, compromise the first things that attracted them to the APBT in the first place... stable, loyal, confident, exuberance.. and so on and so forth.

If someone didn't try to make a herding breed out of our dogs, why knock them for working the dogs period?

EDITED TO ADD: at least it would a step in the right direction... they'd be breeding for performance once again.


----------



## Firehazard

I don't care about the GSD or the BM if the TRUTH about DANGEROUS dogs was in the Media HYSTERIA then our little game dogs would be fine.. BUT People who train K9 dogs and breed them together and train the pups for the same and so on and so fourth, it only takes one breeding to get a manbiter and with APBTs that is NOT TOLERATED.

In WWII criminals had GSDs and Good Citizens had APBT or AMST LOL The only reason drug dealers have "pits" is to get the K9 dogs.. Because dogs are DA and if you think that POLICE dogs aren't think again, many dogs die in kennel fights and in Germany when they were outlawing APBTs they would put the dog on a truck surrounded by angry GSDs trying to get the APBT and if the APBT showed aggression it was siezed and euthanized. whats my point.. 

I know the APBT excels at what ever task we ask of it, that doesnt mean we should take the ONLY GAME bred dog, a dog bred for CONTESTS and MATCHING not for FIGHTING in the sense of how people think.. DO Boxers get arrested for brawling? NO its the same context, because they WANT to be there; well buddy no curs allowed... where do you think that comes from? No match dog has/is forced to compete... 
THE LAST THING YOU WANT.. is a manbitting APBT.. THESE DOGS can "fight" for hours, that dog shouldn't be bred to be man aggressive. I have been to the Chaos yard and ALL of those dogs are manbiters IMO and would be excellent K9s. But the best is the lil 35lb game dog that has been selected and sterilzed for being a GREAT WORKER, which simply means DOMINATE at EVERYTHING any other dog was bred to do, then whip em when its done..


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## Firehazard

short and sweet.... 

I think the APBT should only be game bred, and select specimens of the GREATEST working dog ever, should be used in herding/stock control, hunting/catching, and then of course show and service work... BUT by NO MEANS should an APBT be bred for anything but game, and nor should there be HA tolerated in the breed.. because I have had several dogs NOT HA at all but, would grab any one I told them too, shake and pull when I give commands and drop when I say.. STRAIGHT MACHINES... and just as happy to let that person pet them as they were before ... thats that sht....


----------



## Padlock

Firehazard said:


> I don't care about the GSD or the BM if the TRUTH about DANGEROUS dogs was in the Media HYSTERIA then our little game dogs would be fine.. BUT People who train K9 dogs and breed them together and train the pups for the same and so on and so fourth, it only takes one breeding to get a manbiter and with APBTs that is NOT TOLERATED.
> 
> In WWII criminals had GSDs and Good Citizens had APBT or AMST LOL The only reason drug dealers have "pits" is to get the K9 dogs.. Because dogs are DA and if you think that POLICE dogs aren't think again, many dogs die in kennel fights and in Germany when they were outlawing APBTs they would put the dog on a truck surrounded by angry GSDs trying to get the APBT and if the APBT showed aggression it was siezed and euthanized. whats my point..
> 
> I know the APBT excels at what ever task we ask of it, that doesnt mean we should take the ONLY GAME bred dog, a dog bred for CONTESTS and MATCHING not for FIGHTING in the sense of how people think.. DO Boxers get arrested for brawling? NO its the same context, because they WANT to be there; well buddy no curs allowed... where do you think that comes from? No match dog has/is forced to compete...
> THE LAST THING YOU WANT.. is a manbitting APBT.. THESE DOGS can "fight" for hours, that dog shouldn't be bred to be man aggressive. I have been to the Chaos yard and ALL of those dogs are manbiters IMO and would be excellent K9s. But the best is the lil 35lb game dog that has been selected and sterilzed for being a GREAT WORKER, which simply means DOMINATE at EVERYTHING any other dog was bred to do, then whip em when its done..


good post, well said. :clap:


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

Firehazard said:


> because I have had several dogs NOT HA at all but, would grab any one I told them too, shake and pull when I give commands and drop when I say.. STRAIGHT MACHINES... and just as happy to let that person pet them as they were before ... thats that sht....


I reckon we probably won't see eye to eye... i do feel that it is possible to run a protection based kennel without incident. It's definitely not something to do if you're a newb to both the dogs and whichever sport you choose to participate in.... Just because a HA dog is produced does not mean that it would go on to be put back into the program. Culling is vital to any breeding program... it is often talked about in protection trained dogs, the on off switch. I think that because the APBT does not have the underlying issue that herding breeds do... Where the typical herding breeds have the instincts to protect/guard the APBT does not which shows in there over all outlook on situations in the real world.

Example: New GSD at Sch. was approaching the picnic table where the helper was sitting, fidgeting with the whip... this was the GSDs first day ever in training for the sport... The helper cracks the whip against the top of the picnic table and the dog spooked and got on guard. Four weeks later that GSD remembered the helper for hes actions prior and was still sketchy.

My DA dog was at the picnic table as well... my dog looked at the helper and thought he was just trying to get his attention for some lovin'. I haven't attempted off leash distance training around another dog, he's just not to that point yet.

I think in the end, it's all about knowing your dogs, be the best handler you can be, as well as breeding for your personal stock... not breeding for the public.


----------



## Old_Blood

william williamson said:


> please explain this in your words.
> I so often try to tell folks about my dislike for agressive guard work and pits.
> yet you seem to say this differently,I get so defensive right out of the gate.
> using an animals prey drive for protection is leaps and bounds far more worthy of A pits lack toward human agression, and working off the predascious nature vs. the provoked agression.
> I'm not crazy about that whole attack, kill aspect of guard work for pits.
> thanks,


What part can I better to be explained? I'm trying to understand what you mean with your post.


----------



## william williamson

Old_Blood said:


> What part can I better to be explained? I'm trying to understand what you mean with your post.


they kinda banged it around.that debate as to pits as gaurd,vs. protection aspect.
your post and then some that followed,were where I was looking for different views.
I could never have a pit thats been provoked to be directed towards agression against humans.having A pit thats agressive,is like ending an argument with A gun. when all you really need is A dictionary.
thats all.


----------



## Old_Blood

T


Firehazard said:


> I don't care about the GSD or the BM if the TRUTH about DANGEROUS dogs was in the Media HYSTERIA then our little game dogs would be fine.. BUT People who train K9 dogs and breed them together and train the pups for the same and so on and so fourth, it only takes one breeding to get a manbiter and with APBTs that is NOT TOLERATED.


I don't know how this is related? 
Man aggressive dogs can pop up but using dogs for sport or police work isn't going to cause this. It doesn't make unstable dogs, it is really the stable dogs which work better. They certainly don't require HA. As far K9s IMO Pits are best suited for narcotics work rather than the man work aspect. But I really can't tell others what to do and K9s are still largely dominated by the GSD above any breed.

I guess whether or not its tolerated depends on the owners personal choice.
Zebo was an unstable man aggressive dog (Gambler's) Virgil sure appears to have similar issues.

There are numerous other game dogs involved in bite incidences. Plenty we will never know about or ones we do but they are not famous dogs so others will never know.

There are HA game dogs that have been tolerated and bred by dogman. Even more than tolerated such as Hammonds with the dogs on his yard.



> In WWII criminals had GSDs and Good Citizens had APBT or AMST LOL The only reason drug dealers have "pits" is to get the K9 dogs.. Because dogs are DA and if you think that POLICE dogs aren't think again, many dogs die in kennel fights and in Germany when they were outlawing APBTs they would put the dog on a truck surrounded by angry GSDs trying to get the APBT and if the APBT showed aggression it was siezed and euthanized. whats my point..


I believe very much K9 dogs can be DA and GSD breeders do in fact have kennel fights among their dogs. However the only reason drug dealers have Pits is to get K9 officers? Hardly. A raid on a dealers home can turn up Pits of various temperament from seemingly completely non aggressive to very man aggressive. Do think again. Dealers dogs have been involved with attacks on police or even innocent victims sometimes fatal. They are there to keep anyone away. Since these dogs may live and attack together their primary Target being HUMAN. This has been going on since at least the 80s that I know of.



> I know the APBT excels at what ever task we ask of it, that doesnt mean we should take the ONLY GAME bred dog, a dog bred for CONTESTS and MATCHING not for FIGHTING in the sense of how people think.. DO Boxers get arrested for brawling? NO its the same context, because they WANT to be there; well buddy no curs allowed... where do you think that comes from? No match dog has/is forced to compete...
> THE LAST THING YOU WANT.. is a manbitting APBT.. THESE DOGS can "fight" for hours, that dog shouldn't be bred to be man aggressive. I have been to the Chaos yard and ALL of those dogs are manbiters IMO and would be excellent K9s. But the best is the lil 35lb game dog that has been selected and sterilzed for being a GREAT WORKER, which simply means DOMINATE at EVERYTHING any other dog was bred to do, then whip em when its done..


Who said anything about man aggressive APBT in the first place? Especially breeding for such traits. The comparison of behavior was between 2 different breeds, at least the one I made where this discussion seemed to take a turn. Sport dogs working on prey drive don't need to be the least bit HA anyway. They simply go for the sleeve not the man. If you show them a bite sleeve it would be like any other toy.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK

coorect me if Im wrong but in k9 and sch isnt the dog working off of commands so a dog breed with less ha would be good since they wouldnt get overly agressive with the subject.
In alot of the vid where gsd dont let go soon enough seems the dogs over anxious the get the person. apbt seems like it would be a good choice since they arent ha only following the directions of the handlers? just my thoughts


----------



## bahamutt99

LadyRampage said:


> I've had the happy dogs, the ones that instead of getting excited with displays of lunging,barking,growls, snarling, they do the happy dance... jumping tail going 100mph..


My Terra girl is one that looks for all the world like she's ready to play. She will wag her tail and put her ears back. Other times she will stand still and wag her tail slowly and just watch with this almost serene expression on her face. But its all much the same thing. I've encouraged her to come and stand on me when she thinks she's going to do something bad, and I'm lucky that she understands the difference between UKC and ADBA events. LOL!

Most of Terra's fights have been the escalation variety, where she was playing and another dog barked and set her off, or something of that nature. Loki, on the other hand, never escalates. If she's playing, she's playing. And she will give you warning signs like a "normal" dog would. (A snarl, a growl.) Her stress points are always the same, so she's a very easy dog to manage. Unlike Terra, who seems to enjoy a scrap and doesn't give you much indication of what she's about to do.

As a point of interest, Terra's topside is all gamebred (Jeep/Redboy). Loki is more of a pit-or-staff type. So in this instance at least, the dogs have followed what their pedigrees would indicate in their behavior.

*To the original question...*

I don't know of any non-DA gamebred _bloodlines_. I think there were individual representatives.

I want to say Colby's Demo was a dog that they would let run the neighborhood and just pick him up when they wanted to breed to him. Read that in a book, so don't take me to task over the accuracy.

Jimmy Boots is another that I _heard_ was good with appropriate dogs until put in the pit with them.

Mongoose has already been named in this thread.

Virgil, also named in this thread.

Tudor's Dibo, I think mentioned earlier, was a pacifist when Tudor got a hold of him.

A dog named Panther I've read enjoyed the company of another female when he was doing roadwork.

You'd have to research the pedigrees of those dogs to see if there's a correlation in how they're bred.


----------



## Firehazard

Old_Blood said:


> T
> 
> I don't know how this is related?
> Man aggressive dogs can pop up but using dogs for sport or police work isn't going to cause this. It doesn't make unstable dogs, it is really the stable dogs which work better. They certainly don't require HA. As far K9s IMO Pits are best suited for narcotics work rather than the man work aspect. But I really can't tell others what to do and K9s are still largely dominated by the GSD above any breed.
> 
> I guess whether or not its tolerated depends on the owners personal choice.
> Zebo was an unstable man aggressive dog (Gambler's) Virgil sure appears to have similar issues.
> 
> There are numerous other game dogs involved in bite incidences. Plenty we will never know about or ones we do but they are not famous dogs so others will never know.
> 
> There are HA game dogs that have been tolerated and bred by dogman. Even more than tolerated such as Hammonds with the dogs on his yard.
> 
> I believe very much K9 dogs can be DA and GSD breeders do in fact have kennel fights among their dogs. However the only reason drug dealers have Pits is to get K9 officers? Hardly. A raid on a dealers home can turn up Pits of various temperament from seemingly completely non aggressive to very man aggressive. Do think again. Dealers dogs have been involved with attacks on police or even innocent victims sometimes fatal. They are there to keep anyone away. Since these dogs may live and attack together their primary Target being HUMAN. This has been going on since at least the 80s that I know of.
> 
> Who said anything about man aggressive APBT in the first place? Especially breeding for such traits. The comparison of behavior was between 2 different breeds, at least the one I made where this discussion seemed to take a turn. Sport dogs working on prey drive don't need to be the least bit HA anyway. They simply go for the sleeve not the man. If you show them a bite sleeve it would be like any other toy.


Training APBTs for GUARD work or using them as K9s..

If you train two apbts for guard work, breed them together and raise the pups doing the same work ... THERE WILL BE A HA GENE POP UP.... The GSD in its creation by Captain Max von Stephanitz was mixed between herding dogs, and wolves with an accidental sire by a bloodhound, which is where the saddle coat comes from.. GSDs are WOLF DOGS!!! SO THE POLICE USE MAN AGGRESSIVE WOLF DOGS TRAINED FOR WAR!! LOL 
When dogs have been bred to be man aggressive for fifty years and by selectively picking out dogs with man stopping power and intelligence, the end result is almost common sense. It only takes one generation to produce a man-biter and another to produce a litter of man-biters, then a LIFETIME to remove it.

the APBT is just not to be bred for guard work... Its bred to match...


----------



## Firehazard

william williamson said:


> they kinda banged it around.that debate as to pits as gaurd,vs. protection aspect.
> your post and then some that followed,were where I was looking for different views.
> I could never have a pit thats been provoked to be directed towards agression against humans.having A pit thats agressive,is like ending an argument with A gun. when all you really need is A dictionary.
> thats all.


:goodpost: Exactly..........


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## Old_Blood

The reason Jimmy Boots didn't work out as a pet is because he was allowed to run loose and got into fights. So even with a lesser DA dog you can have a situation, this was an issue of female in heat male to male aggression. This goes across dogs as a whole no matter the breed. If you put them in the right (or wrong) situation they will behave with aggression.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Firehazard said:


> Training APBTs for GUARD work or using them as K9s..
> 
> If you train two apbts for guard work, breed them together and raise the pups doing the same work ... THERE WILL BE A HA GENE POP UP....


you can not train genetics so is if da and ha are genetictic trianing a dog to be either one would not have anything to do with what that dog produces. You would have to select dogs with the 
trait already for it to contiune in the blood line. take a pug for instance breed to be a copanion(sp) dog but i can make it hate people but if I breed that dog that doesnt mean I will get man hateing dogs I would have to train it too.


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## Firehazard

^ I've seen it done with my own eyes.. I am also a student of genetics.. SORRY.. But it works just like that... HOW DO YOU THINK YOU GOT WOLVES TO PULL CARTS, and OTHERS TO HUNT BEAR, and OTHERs to do HERDING.. all wolf dogs from same litter trained and bred to do different things ... MIND YOU.. we get DOG from inuits and other tribals.. When they catch wolves and bred/breed them the FIRST LITTER RAISED BY HUMANS ARE DOGS... Traits of mental status are sought out and bred for as well as trained and bred for... HOW DID THE game dog come about? Was it finding the perfect traits for the [] or finding perfect traits to be HA or a herding dog? There is a reason the men who laid the legacy had no room for a manbiter..

OH.. ZEBO.. well out of his 7 owners most say he was an exceptional dog and a handfull swear he was HA.. LOL Well that has to be all in the ppl and the handling.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

then its not genetic


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

it was slecting breeding theat created dogs. dog that showed the best qualities(tolerante of humans) and so on that made dogs they had to cull the ones that where to agressive. so no training a dog to do something and then breeding it does not make the children that way. Genetics dont work that way. Some of the dogs may have it but not all will but the genes have to be there already.

so if da and ha are genetics training has nothing to do with how the babies will be.
the only thing you could do is select the dogs that have the trait already and breed these together and then from this breeding select the ones that show this trait and so on


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## Old_Blood

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> it was slecting breeding theat created dogs. dog that showed the best qualities(tolerante of humans) and so on that made dogs they had to cull the ones that where to agressive. so no training a dog to do something and then breeding it does not make the children that way. Genetics dont work that way. Some of the dogs may have it but not all will but the genes have to be there already.
> 
> so if da and ha are genetics training has nothing to do with how the babies will be.
> the only thing you could do is select the dogs that have the trait already and breed these together and then from this breeding select the ones that show this trait and so on


Exactly. Training a dog to do guard work doesn't equal man aggressive guardian pup in the litter and a whole litter in the 2nd breeding. If a dog is trained to do something the pups don't genetically come out the same as the parents. If only it were that easy. If a pup or pups come out HA within a litter without influence from the owner it is because the genetics is already there. Regardless of if the parent(s) had that side of their temperament brought out.

Not all dogs have the same exact origins. While we were not there for the original domestication it isn't plausible to believe the dog as we know it came about in one generation. Breeds themselves are specialized so it takes generations of selective breeding to get the traits to consistently pass. A herding dog didn't come from simply the parents being trained to herd. These dogs began domestication and showed the traits that were isolated, modified, ect. There are those which breed wolves but these dogs don't lose their wild traits.

As for Zebo bad handling ? Lol Regardless of handling it is his temperament, one person might know how to better handle him but that is beside the point


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## Old_Blood

Beware everyone wolf dogs are being trained for war!


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## Firehazard

You create a man aggressive gene... yes they do work like that, sociopaths for example are sometimes created from MANIPULATIVE parents who DO NOT SHOW their children LOVE.. This is also passed down from parent to child... LOL its psychology, yes Im going to Psych Lab this semester and shooting for my psych D. 

MENTAL TRAITS ARE LEARNED; AND, THEY ARE PASSED ON THROUGH GENETICS.. 

YES>. GSD is a wolf dog being trained for war, and USED on CIVILIANS.. I used to train K9s in Okla, could tell ya all about it.. PROPAGANDA! 

I made a sarcastic remark to that because everyone is as leary of wolf dogs as they are pit bulls by media standards. Yet GSDs are wolfdogs that have not been bred for herding for over 100yrs but have been bred for intelligence and HA. 

If you do this to the APBT it will no longer be a SAFE breed, let alone being game bred. 
Opinons VARY, and EVERY BOOK is someone elses opinion, I've read many many books and past many many exams, not to mention life experience in wolf rescue and rehabilitation; Im a certified vet tech, canine behavior specialist, and a student of genetics, this is my hobby.. I love this stuff.. 
Use the square or the equation, it will all show that in order to get a PURE bred anything you have to LINE or IN BREED, if you double up on a trait YOUR unaware is there because all you do is K9 work, then you wouldn't know if you were breeding HA dogs until it came back, and of course to me/us you would be like I have no HA dogs in my litters, but to the owner you would be like yeah aint that the american bada$$.. When I say YOU I mean someone interested in K9 sports for APBTs. 

I know genetics, I've worked it and studied in wolves, fish, cattle, horses, and dogs esspecially APBTs... I've been to Alaska and seen REAL huskies which are just WORKING WOLF DOGS, thats what the inuit term HUSKY means, WORKING WOLF DOG. LOL People are sure proud of knowing what they don't know 

All laughs on me; No worries........... I laugh at myself half the time...... 

I aint worried because unfortunately people are proving me right left and right with the HA APBTs and dogs that all of a sudden are excite biters. There are alot of HA OFRN dogs of that Corvino stuff and just as many that are far from it, because Centipede, Braddock, and others were man biters and kept because they were game, in the OLD world they would have been Pit Bulldogs in Germany, Kempfer dogs, Dangerous dogs.. What American Dog men did was to applify the game dog and deminish the HA gene in all game dog stock.. 
THE PROBLEM IS NO ONE CULLS anymore ESPECIALLY FULL GROWN DOGS... TSK TSK TSK 

OTHER THAN PROFESSIONALS, and individual STERILIZED dogs... APBTs should NOT be trained or promoted in guard work......... PERIOD It Damm sure shouldn't be bred for such.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Firehazard said:


> You create a man aggressive gene... yes they do work like that, sociopaths for example are sometimes created from MANIPULATIVE parents who DO NOT SHOW their children LOVE.. This is also passed down from parent to child... LOL its psychology, yes Im going to Psych Lab this semester and shooting for my psych D.
> 
> MENTAL TRAITS ARE LEARNED; AND, THEY ARE PASSED ON THROUGH GENETICS..


show me a scientific study that show you this is true. what you are trying to say is if a killer has children the children will become killers even though there is no proof behind this statment.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Price (1984) defined domestication as a process by which a population of animals becomes adapted to man and the captive environment by some combination of genetic changes occurring over generations and environmentally induced developmental events recurring during each generation:' In long-term selection experiments designed to study the consequences of selection for the tame" domesticated type of behavior, Belyaev (1979) and Belyaev et al. (1981) studied foxes reared for their fur. The red fox (Vulpes fulva) has been raised on seminatural fur farms for over 100 years and was selected for fur traits and not behavioral traits. However, they demonstrate three distinctly different characteristic responses to man. Thirty percent were extremely aggressive toward man, 60% were either fearful or fearfully aggressive, and 10% displayed a quiet exploratory reaction without either fear or aggression. The objective of this experiment was to breed animals similar in behavior to the domestic dog. By selecting and breeding the tamest individuals, 20 years later the experiment succeeded in turning wild foxes into tame, border collie-like fox-dogs. The highly selected "tame" population of (fox-dog) foxes actively sought human contact and would whine and wag their tails when people approached (Belyaev 1979). This behavior was in sharp contrast to wild foxes which showed extremely aggressive and fearful behavior toward man. Keeler et al. (1970) described this behavior:


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

An example of an innate behavior that is affected by learning is burrowing behavior in rats. Boice (1977) found that wild Norway rats and albino laboratory rats both dig elaborate burrows. Learning has some effect on the efficiency of burrowing, but the configuration of the burrows was the same for both the wild and domestic rats. The albino laboratory rats dug excellent burrows the first time they were exposed to an outdoor pen. Nest building in sows is another example of the interaction between instinct and learning. When a sow is having her first litter, she has an uncontrollable urge to build a nest. Nest building is hard-wired and hormonally driven because prostaglandin F2a injections will induce it in sows (Widowski and Curtis, 1989). However, sows earn from experience how to build a better nest with each successful litter.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

In animals as diverse as rats, chickens, cattle, pigs, and humans, genetic factors influence differences in temperament (Murphey et al., 1980b Kagan et al., 1988; Grandin, 1993b; Fordyce et al., 1988; Fujita et al., 1994; Hemsworth et al., 1990; Broadhurst, 1975; Reese et al., 1983; Murphy, 1977; Tulloh, 1961; Blizard, 1971). Some individuals are wary and fearful and others are calm and placid. Boissy (1995) stated, fearfulness is a basic psychological characteristic of the individual that predisposes it to perceive and react in a similar manner to a wide range of potentially frightening events]' In all animals, genetic factors influence reactions to situations which cause fear (Davis, 1992; Murphey et al., 1980b; Kagan et al, 1988; Boissy and Bouissou, 1995); therefore, temperament is partially determined by an individual animal's fear response. Rogan and LeDoux (1996) suggest that fear is the product of a neural system that evolved to detect danger and that it causes an animal to make a response to protect itself. Plomin and Daniels (1987) found a substantial genetic influence on shyness (fearfulness) in human children. Shy behavior in novel situations is considered a stable psychological characteristic of certain individuals. Shyness is also suggested to be among the most heritable dimensions of human temperament throughout the life span. 
In an experiment designed to control for maternal effects on temperament and emotionality, Broadhurst (1960) conducted cross-fostering experiments on Maudsley Reactive (MR) and Non Reactive (MNR) rats. These lines of rats are genetically selected for high or low levels of emotional reactivity The results showed that maternal effects were not great enough to completely mask the temperament differences between the two lines (Broadhurst, 1960). Maternal effects can affect temperament, but they are not great enough to completely change the temperament of a cross-fostered animal which has a temperament that is very different from that of the foster mother. In extensive review of the literature, Broadhurst (1975) examined the role of heredity in the formation of behavior and found that differences in temperament between rats persist when the animals are all raised in the same environment.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

your probably talking about Lamarckian inheritance
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2009/09/03/toad-fraud-may-have-been-ahead-of-his-time/


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

In several other respects, the theory of Lamarck differs from modern evolutionary theory. Lamarck viewed evolution as a process of increasing complexity and "perfection," not driven by chance; as he wrote in Philosophie zoologique, "Nature, in producing in succession every species of animal, and beginning with the least perfect or simplest to end her work with the most perfect, has gradually complicated their structure." Lamarck did not believe in extinction: for him, species that disappeared did so because they evolved into different species. If this goes on for too long, it would mean the disappearance of less "perfect" organisms; Lamarck had to postulate that simple organisms, such as protists, were constantly being spontaneously generated. Yet despite these differences, Lamarck made a major contribution to evolutionarythought, developing a theory that paralleled Darwin's in many respects. Rediscovered in the middle part of the 19th century, his theories finally gained the attention they merited. His mechanism of evolution remained a popular alternative to Darwinian selection until the beginning of the 20th century; prominent scientists like Edward Drinker Cope adopted Lamarckianism and tried to apply it to their work. Though his proposed mechanism eventually fell out of favor, he broke ground in establishing the fact of evolution.


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## Firehazard

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> show me a scientific study that show you this is true. what you are trying to say is if a killer has children the children will become killers even though there is no proof behind this statment.


sociopath is not neccessarily a KILLER..

I am not about to break out my DSM IV, then I will have to break down the DSM IV codes, and then into crayon :hammer:

KLEPTOMANIA like SCHIZOPHRENIA and SOCIOPATHIC TENDACIES ... is as much inherited as it is from environmental contributions.. :hammer:

the fact that I say sociopath and you assume KILLER shows me.. :flush: is where this is going.

All that you posted I read somewhere my freshman year, LOL

the psychological aspect of someone or a canines mind has VERY MUCH to do with genetcis and environment.. . IN MORE WAYs than ONE its our parents fault, and their parents fault. SO on and SO on..


> When there were cannibalistic tribes throught the U.S. let alone the world, that got washed out and bred out you really think that taste for hunting people goes away? Its bred in... LOL (sarcasm)


good luck.. Im sure you won't need it though, you know more than the dogmen who advised the breeding ethics to get the most fabulous dog on Earth, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the ONLY game bred dog. STRATTON HIMSELF NOTED IN American Pit Bull Terriers, The Truth of: that before any gets into APBTs they should seriously study wolves because the APBT is purest most raw canine behavior, which is GENETIC..

:flush:away I go~


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Firehazard said:


> sociopath is not neccessarily a KILLER..
> 
> I am not about to break out my DSM IV, then I will have to break down the DSM IV codes, and then into crayon :hammer:
> 
> KLEPTOMANIA like SCHIZOPHRENIA and SOCIOPATHIC TENDACIES ... is as much inherited as it is from environmental contributions.. :hammer:
> 
> the fact that I say sociopath and you assume KILLER shows me.. :flush: is where this is going.
> 
> All that you posted I read somewhere my freshman year, LOL
> 
> the psychological aspect of someone or a canines mind has VERY MUCH to do with genetcis and environment.. . IN MORE WAYs than ONE its our parents fault, and their parents fault. SO on and SO on..
> 
> good luck.. Im sure you won't need it though, you know more than the dogmen who advised the breeding ethics to get the most fabulous dog on Earth, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the ONLY game bred dog. STRATTON HIMSELF NOTED IN American Pit Bull Terriers, The Truth of: that before any gets into APBTs they should seriously study wolves because the APBT is purest most raw canine behavior, which is GENETIC..
> 
> :flush:away I go~


didnt quote any study and realy didnt add much I would love to hear what backs up your argument just sarcasim and we all know what sarcasmn means. I love your way of looking down on me but thats ok you think you know it all right oh and please dont waste your time pullin out your freshman book please dont.:rofl:


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Well, I would like to have seen how you trained, and what you were working with. I know some GSD owners breed only with the protection aspect as the focus of their breeding program, but that is not a good breeder. These dogs were meant to be utility dogs for farmers. The sport of Schutzhund was created for the aspects in which these dogs were truly created.

Google Translate

I mean, I know all dogs stem from the wolf, but i don't see anything mentioned on the SV website talking about the foundation of the breed were wolves trained for war.


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## Sadie

Firehazard said:


> the APBT is just not to be bred for guard work... Its bred to match...


I agree with this after giving this topic a lot of thought even seriously considered doing bite with my dogs I ultimately decided against it .....

This may upset some folks but I think that bite work is the worst and most dangerous thing you can do with this breed. It goes 110% against the breed standard. I think it does no one any good to see an apbt attacking a person.
The apbt is a very versatile and great all-round dog I agree but it does not excel in attack/defense/shutzhund as much as some other breeds as well it shouldn't since it was not bred for that purpose.
If you want to help the "image" of the breed then use them for other sports like weight pulling or something that does not involve any type of attack on a human. I strongly believe that using this breed for bite work will undoubtedly begin to turn the dogs into man-agressive dogs as with each generation the best biters will be the ones bred and there will be a point when they reach the level that dobermans, german shepards and rottweillers are at.

JMO


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## Kayo45

People should think about what the possibilities are and the consequences of having a gamedog do bitework, schutzhund, and gaurd work and remember the kind of hard mouth dogs like arangadanga and turtlebuster.


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## Firehazard

Sadie said:


> I agree with this after giving this topic a lot of thought even seriously considered doing bite with my dogs I ultimately decided against it .....
> 
> This may upset some folks but I think that bite work is the worst and most dangerous thing you can do with this breed. It goes 110% against the breed standard. I think it does no one any good to see an apbt attacking a person.
> The apbt is a very versatile and great all-round dog I agree but it does not excel in attack/defense/shutzhund as much as some other breeds as well it shouldn't since it was not bred for that purpose.
> If you want to help the "image" of the breed then use them for other sports like weight pulling or something that does not involve any type of attack on a human. I strongly believe that using this breed for bite work will undoubtedly begin to turn the dogs into man-agressive dogs as with each generation the best biters will be the ones bred and there will be a point when they reach the level that dobermans, german shepards and rottweillers are at.
> 
> JMO


:goodpost::clap:


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## Firehazard

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> didnt quote any study and realy didnt add much I would love to hear what backs up your argument just sarcasim and we all know what sarcasmn means. I love your way of looking down on me but thats ok you think you know it all right oh and please dont waste your time pullin out your freshman book please dont.:rofl:


I quote every APBT book I've ever read, and a good portion of EXPERIENCED canine psychology and genetic study beginning with wolves and as vet tech for SPCA and found my hobby raising American Game Dogs. While I purse my degree as I mentioned. Talking down, na.. more like running out of crayon.

here if you need a quote from the DSM IV on mental disorder, I picked a simple one like Narcissism~ ( as I mentioned Kleptomania, Schizophrenia, etc etc are as well)...



> Most professionals subscribe to a biopsychosocial model of causation -- that is, the causes of are likely due to biological and genetic factors, social factors (such as how a person interacts in their early development with their family and friends and other children), and psychological factors (the individual's personality and temperament, shaped by their environment and learned coping skills to deal with stress). This suggests that no single factor is responsible -- rather, it is the complex and likely intertwined nature of all three factors that are important.


and one for SOCIOPATHY or ANTISOCIAL DISORDER



> ANTI-SOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER DSM IV 301.70
> 
> EXPLANATION
> 
> Individuals with an Antisocial Personality Disorder show a lack of concern toward the expectations and rules of society and usually frequently become involved in at least minor violations of the rules of society and the rights of others. A popular term for this type of individual is "sociopath". Although the diagnosis is limited to those persons over eighteen years of age, it usually involves a history of antisocial behavior before the age of fifteen. The individual often displays a pattern of lying, truancy, delinquency, substance abuse, running away from home and may have difficulty with the law. As an adult, the person often commits acts that are against the law and/or fails to live up to the requirements of a job, financial responsibility, or parenting responsibilities. They tend to have difficulty sustaining a long term marital relationship and frequently are involved in alcohol and drug abuse.
> SYMPTOMS
> 
> The signs and symptoms include:
> Lack of concern regarding society's rules and expectations.
> Repeated violations of the rights of others.
> Unlawful behavior.
> Lack of regard for the truth
> In parents, neglect or abuse of children.
> Lack of a steady job. Frequent job changes through quitting and/or being fired
> Tendencies toward physical aggression and extreme irritability.
> TREATMENT
> 
> Currently, there is no widely accepted effective method of treating sociopathic personality types. They tend to be very manipulative during treatment and tend to lie and cover up personal faults in themselves and have little insight into their behavior patterns. They tend to exhibit short-term enthusiasm for treatment, particularly after an incident which has brought them into contact with society or the law, however, once this anxiety is relieved and reduced, they frequently drop out of treatment and fall back into the same sociopathic patterns that brought them into treatment initially. In most cases, the prognosis remains unfavorable throughout the individual's life-span.
> 
> An Antisocial Personality Disorder is not just a medical term for criminality. It describes a long term pervasive personality disorder that is very resistant to treatment. Suicide, alcoholism, vagrancy, social isolation are common among these individuals, but there is a remarkable lack of anxiety or depression for situations in which these emotions are usually expected. In spite of their run-ins with the law, they usually present a very charming and normal facade. Dynamically, these individuals remain fixed in earlier levels of development. Usually there is parental rejections and/or indifference and needs for satisfaction and security are not met. As a result, psychoanalytic theory holds that the ego which controls impulses between conscience and impulses is underdeveloped. Behavior is usually id directed due to this lack of ego strength, a result is a need for immediate gratification. An immature superego allows the individual to pursue gratification regardless of the means and without experiencing any of the feelings of guilt. Functioning has been implicated as an important doctrine in determining whether an individual develops this disorder. Usually the following circumstances are predisposed factors:
> 
> http://www.tamiu.edu/~CFERGUSON/evmeta.pdf <LINK<<<<<<<
> 
> Absence of parental discipline.
> Extreme poverty.
> Removal from the home.
> Growing up without parental figures of both sexes.
> Erratic, inconsistent discipline.
> Being "rescued" each time the person is in trouble and never having to suffer the consequences of his own behavior.
> Maternal deprivation and lack of an appropriate "attachment".
> This problem is much more prevalent in males than females. If present in females, it usually occurs at the onset of puberty. In males the onset is usually earlier on in childhood. Behaviors can diminish somewhat after the age of thirty when the individual seems to "mellow out" and learns more effective ways of staying within the system. Clients tend to be very manipulative and lack motivation for change. They very rarely seek therapy voluntarily and they are usually forced into therapy through some involvement with the law or other aspects of their life. History also reveals significant impairment in social, marital, and occupational functioning. Therapists relate that these clients tend to lack emotional attachment to others. They tend to be personable, charming, and engaging and are usually above average in intelligence. This demeanor, however, is often a pretense intended to deceive others and facilitate the exploitation of others. Emotional reactions tend to be extreme and these individuals tend to lack concern for other people's feelings, be preoccupied with their own interests, and tend to have grandiose expressions of their own importance. Insight and judgment are usually poor as is their responsiveness to therapy. Therapy should focus on helping the individual develop a trusting relationship with other significant people in their lives; children, spouses, etc. The client also needs to learn healthy ways to deal with anxiety and learn to postpone or defer gratification of impulses as a positive step toward developing a more mature and socially more positive way of interacting with others. Focus should also be on promoting development of alternate constructive methods of interacting with others rather than manipulation for self gain. Progress should be measured in terms of self control and use of appropriately assertive rather than aggressive behaviors to gain desired responses. Anxiety and frustration also need to be recognized and diminished and the client also needs to focus on appropriate means of management of these two emotions which tend to cause the greatest conflict with authority and others. Response to therapy is usually very poor, tends to be long term. However, most of these clients do discontinue therapy prematurely and only remain if forced or coerced which further complicates treatment.


Hmm.. genetics and environment?.. :flush: a psych 243 lesson, on a APBT chat.. LOL

Heres a lil' piece on dog psychology.. 


> WELCOME
> The Canine Behavioral Genetics Project is based in the laboratory of Dr. Steven Hamilton in the Department of Psychiatry and Institute for Human Genetics at the University of California, San Francisco. With collaborators Dr. Mark Neff (formerly of UC Davis) and Dr. Hannes Lohi (Univ Helsinki), the goals of this project are:
> To explore the relationship between genes and behavior, both normal and abnormal, in domestic dogs.
> To explore the relationship between genes and medical/neurological disorders such as adult-onset deafness and epilepsy.
> To assess the amount and nature of genetic diversity in domestic dogs, both within and between breeds.
> Our project is currently recruiting participants and collecting DNA samples from both purebred and mixed-breed dogs. Specifically, we are looking for:
> Behaviorally affected dogs: Dogs that suffer or appear to suffer from panic, fear, anxiety, compulsive behaviors, and aggression. Examples of such behaviors include (but are not limited to) separation anxiety, noise phobias, fears of people, places, or other dogs, and aggression toward people or other dogs.
> Medically/neurologically affected dogs: Dogs that were born able to hear but have shown declines or impairments in hearing acuity (deafness). Dogs that suffer from epilepsy or have a history of seizures.
> Family members of affected dogs: Members of a known, accessible family (including siblings, parents, grandparents, etc.) related to one or more affected dogs. Pedigrees, if available, are highly useful to this research, although not necessary for participation.
> Non-behaviorally (or medically) affected dogs: Dogs that do not display any anxiety related behaviors, hearing loss and/or seizures are all welcome to participate in this study. These dogs are necessary for a comparative sample, as well as to assess diversity and population structure both within and between breeds.
> For information about the design of the study (why we are looking for the dogs we're looking for), click here.
> Thank you, and please enjoy browsing our website. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Just contact us.


 http://www.k9behavioralgenetics.com/ bringing new light to the present DVM view that genetics do not cause cancer, or aggression.. LOL RIGHT.... Fight, or Flight LOL OR Freeze... its all genetic and environmental induced.

I think all us can say that our bully breeds have some sort of these symptoms...


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## william williamson

my experience with genetics is through reptiles,eastern diamondbacks.
folks think that they buzz as A warning,it's not,it's A signal buzz,off and on,then constant when they are touched or threatened.whats funny about this is,bein raised and spendin alot of time we saw this take place over our childhood out in the everglades.now,they act,researchers,as if they've made breakthrough studies.and the miccosukere indians and old reds taught us this.now you see them on TV actin like they figgert it out.
yet,now they do A whole lot less of either. they have come to know that theirs more danger in any activity at all.
and with gators,their fear of man is less and less.
conditioning through my exp.is what happens,and then ultimately transposes to genetics.


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## Firehazard

:goodpost:


william williamson said:


> my experience with genetics is through reptiles,eastern diamondbacks.
> folks think that they buzz as A warning,it's not,it's A signal buzz,off and on,then constant when they are touched or threatened.whats funny about this is,bein raised and spendin alot of time we saw this take place over our childhood out in the everglades.now,they act,researchers,as if they've made breakthrough studies.and the miccosukere indians and old reds taught us this.now you see them on TV actin like they figgert it out.
> yet,now they do A whole lot less of either. they have come to know that theirs more danger in any activity at all.
> and with gators,their fear of man is less and less.
> conditioning through my exp.is what happens,and then ultimately transposes to genetics.


:goodpost: EXACTLY my POINT experience is EDUCATION.. BUT people need something with creds or a board of doctors or scientists to believe what we as native americans or good ol boys or what ever have known as common sense for quite some time.. My great grandma half tonkawa/choctaw (tonkawa were raiders) took me to rattlesnake roundups when I was about 5, alot of fun, I always wanted a pet one, but I only got to keep kingsnakes. LOL

I got the upbringing and am a lifetime student, I love learning something new, I REALLY love learning SOMETHING NEW that is OLD.. thanks for the insight WW


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## Old_Blood

Firehazard said:


> You create a man aggressive gene... yes they do work like that, sociopaths for example are sometimes created from MANIPULATIVE parents who DO NOT SHOW their children LOVE.. This is also passed down from parent to child... LOL its psychology, yes Im going to Psych Lab this semester and shooting for my psych D.


You don't change the genetics of the dog.

You are talking about disorders which stem from environmental and hereditary factors. Chemical, neurological, ect physical disorders are genetically linked. What you are also talking about is learned and environmental. Dogs can learn behavior from eachother yes, but unlike dogs most are not going to be greatly influenced by their parents actions. Parents raise themselves children. When someone creates such a person of their child, their child will then do the same. It is a cycle. Learned behavior doesn't influence the dog like it does a person. You don't automatically have an abusive child from abusive parent(s). If they were raised in a different environment.



> MENTAL TRAITS ARE LEARNED; AND, THEY ARE PASSED ON THROUGH GENETICS..


Learned traits are learned. A dog doesn't gain all knowledge of his parents. If it were this simple there would need to be a lot less culling. You would only need ti train the parents for a task and get a whole litter with the trait after 2 generations.



> YES>. GSD is a wolf dog being trained for war, and USED on CIVILIANS.. I used to train K9s in Okla, could tell ya all about it.. PROPAGANDA!
> 
> I made a sarcastic remark to that because everyone is as leary of wolf dogs as they are pit bulls by media standards. Yet GSDs are wolfdogs that have not been bred for herding for over 100yrs but have been bred for intelligence and HA.


GSD isn't a wolf for one. Civilians K9s are used on are not exactly innocent victims.



> If you do this to the APBT it will no longer be a SAFE breed, let alone being game bred.


I have no intention of encouraging anyone to create a man aggressive line. Though I fail to see how they would be unsafe. What manner of unsafe are we talking about. The issue lies with the owners ability to control and contain their dog.



> Use the square or the equation, it will all show that in order to get a PURE bred anything you have to LINE or IN BREED, if you double up on a trait YOUR unaware is there because all you do is K9 work, then you wouldn't know if you were breeding HA dogs until it came back, and of course to me/us you would be like I have no HA dogs in my litters, but to the owner you would be like yeah aint that the american bada$$.. When I say YOU I mean someone interested in K9 sports for APBTs.


That could be a logical conclusion. If you trained HA dogs then you wouldn't know perhaps. However observation of your dogs behavior would indicate if it is HA or not, whether you do SCH or not. You are talking about two different things.



> I know genetics, I've worked it and studied in wolves, fish, cattle, horses, and dogs esspecially APBTs... I've been to Alaska and seen REAL huskies which are just WORKING WOLF DOGS, thats what the inuit term HUSKY means, WORKING WOLF DOG. LOL People are sure proud of knowing what they don't know


You could be talking about yourself with that last statement. Husky doesn't mean "working wolf dog". Huskies are a long time domesticated breed of dog. Did they descend from wolves, sure, but that is different entirely.



> I aint worried because unfortunately people are proving me right left and right with the HA APBTs and dogs that all of a sudden are excite biters. There are alot of HA OFRN dogs of that Corvino stuff and just as many that are far from it, because Centipede, Braddock, and others were man biters and kept because they were game, in the OLD world they would have been Pit Bulldogs in Germany, Kempfer dogs, Dangerous dogs.. What American Dog men did was to applify the game dog and deminish the HA gene in all game dog stock..
> THE PROBLEM IS NO ONE CULLS anymore ESPECIALLY FULL GROWN DOGS... TSK TSK TSK


If people are proving you right I would be worried. Though I don't see how man biters prove your breeding theory. No where was it stated that HA isn't a genetic trait. I'm not sure what the rest of your run on sentence means. Nor how Americans which bred HA diminished the gene, it is a contradiction. There are too many people with their hands in the pot for them to all do it alike. Lack of culling is a huge problem!!!



> OTHER THAN PROFESSIONALS, and individual STERILIZED dogs... APBTs should NOT be trained or promoted in guard work......... PERIOD It Damm sure shouldn't be bred for such.


Who here said anything to the contrary? No one has promoted non professionals training guard dogs.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

If mental traits are learned and passed on by genetics, why wouldn't it be the same for commands as a whole if this is the basis of your philosophy on training period. IF this is your foothold on this entire issue, puppies would come pretrained straight out of the womb and it wouldn't be necessary to work with your dog. 

I still would like to know your methods of training as well as what stock you were working with. Your work very well could have set you up with the wrong dogs as well as have you use the wrong methods. There are a million different ways to train a protection dog... right and wrong... and dogs are not cookie cutters, what will work for some dogs will not for others. Heck, training is also approached differently for different breeds then you must tailor it to the specific dog. You have to know what you're working with, and how to work with that. (that is a synopsis of the soap box i first started to type out).

EDIT: Sport is sport, training is training, instinct is instinct. You're not training a dog to kill somebody, you're training to have them subdue a "bad guy" or the helper. I call it "bad guy" when civil work is preformed... I'm not interested enough in protection to put this training into real life situations. The dogs know when to work and when not to... they aren't stupid... after all that's why you chose that particular dog to do protection, it's intellegence, physical ability, and because it is of sound mind. Just because you take a gamebred dog to do a bite sport does not mean that it's instincts change and they believe the person being bit is another dog.


----------



## Old_Blood

william williamson said:


> my experience with genetics is through reptiles,eastern diamondbacks.
> folks think that they buzz as A warning,it's not,it's A signal buzz,off and on,then constant when they are touched or threatened.whats funny about this is,bein raised and spendin alot of time we saw this take place over our childhood out in the everglades.now,they act,researchers,as if they've made breakthrough studies.and the miccosukere indians and old reds taught us this.now you see them on TV actin like they figgert it out.
> yet,now they do A whole lot less of either. they have come to know that theirs more danger in any activity at all.
> and with gators,their fear of man is less and less.
> conditioning through my exp.is what happens,and then ultimately transposes to genetics.


Scientist should have been knowing this. I was watching a show about rattlesnakes I was like wow they really believe they are smart its common sense.

They were some how surprised that rattlesnakes had stopped rattling. How did this happen so fast? Oh it really did happen! Yes its natural selection and people should be knowing it doesn't take ions.


----------



## Old_Blood

Stratton suggestion to study wolves is irrelevant. Since APBT are not like the wolf. I could understand if one thinks this of a primitive breed who would have certain characteristics more commonly.


----------



## Firehazard

Well ya'll know more than the men who brought us the APBT bloodline, huh?... and it's all relevant.. 

Those who can see will see, those who can hear will hear... all others are lost.

IF YOU REALLY THINK I AM SAYING DOGS COME OUT OF THE WOMB TRAINED then you need to re-evaluate the conversation. 

Its BRED in (thats makes it genetic) and yes a dog that has cured bred to the right dog can have GAME pups thats not saying there won't be anymore curs. . .. GSD and Malinois are the same, HA dogs are promoted and bred and thus the lines are superb for war. 

You all taking the stand here are professional K9 trainers? I know I have the skills and experience and I don't promote breeding the APBT for such work. Some professionals do very well PK for example, however MOST are destroying the APBT as a breed. 

you have taken your own opinion and twisted it all around taken specific quotes out of context and its ALL intertwined JUST as GENETICS and ENVIRONMENT are intertwined.
My crayons are wearing thin... MENTALITY IS GENETIC we as game dog breeders know the game gene is MENTAL and is GENETIC.. common sense tells one that OTHER BEHAVIOR is genetic and evironmental influenced as WELL! Have fun picking it all apart.......


----------



## Firehazard

HUSKIES ARE WORKING WOLFDOGS!! YOUR INFO NEEDS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE BESIDES ANIMAL PLANET..
THE REAL HUSKY is the ALASKAN SLED DOG, a working wolf dog with HARD workers from all over added, much like the malinois or OLD SCHOOL GAMEDOG men most serious Alaskan Dog men keep private peds and breed dogs according to their MENTAL and PHYSICAL attributes, GENETIC attributes in other words. 
Alaskan Husky Dogs Guest Author - Deb Frost

Sled dogs were a main means of transportation in arctic regions long before airplanes and snow machines were invented. They may be used more for recreation than necessity these days, but if you visit bush Alaska, you will find working sled dogs still hard at work, doing the job they were bred for so many years ago.

Alaskan Huskies and Siberian Huskies are not (usually) the same breed of dog. Alaskan Huskies, better known in Alaska as Alaskan Sled Dogs or simply "sled dogs", are bred to a far different standard then the AKC Siberian Husky they sometimes resemble. In fact, some Siberian Huskies are Alaskan sled dogs. Confused?

Breeding top quality Alaskan Huskies is part science and genetics and a lot of mushing experience. These dogs are bred to a "working standard" rather than a strict conformation standard. Sled dogs can vary from kennel to kennel and even within the same kennel, depending on what traits a musher is attempting to develop or duplicate.

In fact, there are three main sub-categories within the Alaskan Husky dog breed; light-weight sprinters, distance runners and freight dogs. The most commonly seen and recognized are the "distance Alaskans". These are the dogs you see in the Iditarod, the Yukon Quest and other long-distance sled dog races.

The heavier variety of sled dog is referred to as a "freighter". This sled-dog type leans heavily towards the larger Malamute type of Spitz breeds and can sometimes have some St. Bernard, McKenzie River Husky or other large breed in them. Used mainly for hauling heavy loads in the past, these dogs now also excel at weight-pulling contests.

Lighter-weight Alaskan Huskies or "sprinters" are referred to as Eurohounds in some circles. Contrary to the "sled dog" many people envision, sprint dogs are often fairly small, short-haired, highly enthusiastic athletes specifically bred for short, intense sprint races where there is no need to sleep outdoors or mush for many hours in frigid weather. These dogs look like mixed-breed mutts to outsiders, but the thought and care put into their breeding is as intense as the competitive sprint races they excel in.

The "average" Alaskan Husky is a hardy dog with upright or partially upright ears. Most Alaskan Huskies have a dense, short to medium-length double coat to protect from ice, wind and rain and the endurance to travel up to 100 miles in a 24 hour period while pulling 80+ pounds each. Alaskan Huskies come in any coat or eye color, but long-haired and single-coated dogs are discouraged in the breed.

On closer examination, an experienced dog breeder might discern traits of not only the Siberian Husky, Malamute, Samoyed or other Spitz-breed dogs that the Alaskan Husky breed was founded on, but also a sprinkling of Border Collie (superb intelligence), Pointer (enthusiasm and focus) and hound (sight-hounds like the Saluki may seem an odd addition, but these hounds of the desert add speed and endurance - invaluable assets in a sled dog). This is the ultimate "designer dog"!

Alaskan Huskies are not show dogs. It is unlikely that sled dogs will ever be recognized as a "true" dog breed because there is no true preferred type other than a generalized "northern dog type" and no pedigree or proven ancestry is necessary. They are bred for stamina, speed and the desire to pull a sled no matter what the conditions. This breed is based more on attitude than conformation.

The history of true northern sled dog stretches back thousands of years and across literally all of the northern continents. The only source of land transportation used by early North American natives; the ancestors of our modern day Alaskan Husky were essential partners for hunting, trapping and protection as well as transportation. Without sled dogs, explorers like Byrd, Amundson and Peary would have found exploration and travel on the frozen tundra of two continents virtually impossible.

A breed apart &#8230; the Alaskan Husky dog is ideally suited for the rugged country that it is so appropriately named for.

MORE INFO
http://www.sleddogcentral.com/features/little_wolf/alaskans.htm


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

Firehazard said:


> Well ya'll know more than the men who brought us the APBT bloodline, huh?... and it's all relevant..
> 
> Those who can see will see, those who can hear will hear... all others are lost.
> 
> IF YOU REALLY THINK I AM SAYING DOGS COME OUT OF THE WOMB TRAINED then you need to re-evaluate the conversation.
> 
> Its BRED in (thats makes it genetic) and yes a dog that has cured bred to the right dog can have GAME pups thats not saying there won't be anymore curs. . .. GSD and Malinois are the same, HA dogs are promoted and bred and thus the lines are superb for war.
> 
> You all taking the stand here are professional K9 trainers? I know I have the skills and experience and I don't promote breeding the APBT for such work. Some professionals do very well PK for example, however MOST are destroying the APBT as a breed.
> 
> you have taken your own opinion and twisted it all around taken specific quotes out of context and its ALL intertwined JUST as GENETICS and ENVIRONMENT are intertwined.
> My crayons are wearing thin... MENTALITY IS GENETIC we as game dog breeders know the game gene is MENTAL and is GENETIC.. common sense tells one that OTHER BEHAVIOR is genetic and evironmental influenced as WELL! Have fun picking it all apart.......


Are you really yelling at me or are you trying to stress a point with those capital letters? I thought we were having a constructive conversation, I'll leave if this upsets you so much. Call me a cur, say what you will, i don't believe we need to make APBTs into GSDs. Bite work does not equal human aggression.


----------



## Firehazard

Dave Y Am I STILL Banned? said:


> Are you really yelling at me or are you trying to stress a point with those capital letters? I thought we were having a constructive conversation, I'll leave if this upsets you so much. Call me a cur, say what you will, i don't believe we need to make APBTs into GSDs. Bite work does not equal human aggression.


Na.. just stressin a point.. I forget that CAPS means 

LOL


----------



## performanceknls

Kayo45 said:


> People should think about what the possibilities are and the consequences of having a gamedog do bitework, schutzhund, and gaurd work and remember the kind of hard mouth dogs like arangadanga and turtlebuster.





Sadie said:


> I agree with this after giving this topic a lot of thought even seriously considered doing bite with my dogs I ultimately decided against it .....
> 
> This may upset some folks but I think that bite work is the worst and most dangerous thing you can do with this breed. It goes 110% against the breed standard. I think it does no one any good to see an apbt attacking a person.
> The apbt is a very versatile and great all-round dog I agree but it does not excel in attack/defense/shutzhund as much as some other breeds as well it shouldn't since it was not bred for that purpose.
> If you want to help the "image" of the breed then use them for other sports like weight pulling or something that does not involve any type of attack on a human. I strongly believe that using this breed for bite work will undoubtedly begin to turn the dogs into man-agressive dogs as with each generation the best biters will be the ones bred and there will be a point when they reach the level that dobermans, german shepards and rottweillers are at.
> 
> JMO


You guys have this all wrong, Schutzhund sport is not the same as attack or protection training. I work several APBT's in Schutzhund and it is mostly prey based with a little defense. If Siren goes after the helper in the sleeve and the helper drops the sleeve and walks away Siren would not bite. It all has to do with the sleeve being what the dog wants not the person. Now some dogs are sharper than others and my old Zebo bred male was like that. As we all know that is not typical of the APBT's temperament and dogs like that are the exception rather than the rule.

I work several Gamebred dogs in the sport and it is not the same as training a person protection dog. This is where public ignorance comes in, be educated about the difference and you will see they are not the same. I do not think any bulldog type breed should be trained for personal protection or guard work gamebred or not.

I have not read this whole thread just the last few pages, BTW


----------



## Firehazard

:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:


----------



## Padlock

Firehazard said:


> HUSKIES ARE WORKING WOLFDOGS!! YOUR INFO NEEDS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE BESIDES ANIMAL PLANET..
> THE REAL HUSKY is the ALASKAN SLED DOG, a working wolf dog with HARD workers from all over added, much like the malinois or OLD SCHOOL GAMEDOG men most serious Alaskan Dog men keep private peds and breed dogs according to their MENTAL and PHYSICAL attributes, GENETIC attributes in other words.
> Alaskan Husky Dogs Guest Author - Deb Frost
> 
> Sled dogs were a main means of transportation in arctic regions long before airplanes and snow machines were invented. They may be used more for recreation than necessity these days, but if you visit bush Alaska, you will find working sled dogs still hard at work, doing the job they were bred for so many years ago.
> 
> Alaskan Huskies and Siberian Huskies are not (usually) the same breed of dog. Alaskan Huskies, better known in Alaska as Alaskan Sled Dogs or simply "sled dogs", are bred to a far different standard then the AKC Siberian Husky they sometimes resemble. In fact, some Siberian Huskies are Alaskan sled dogs. Confused?
> 
> Breeding top quality Alaskan Huskies is part science and genetics and a lot of mushing experience. These dogs are bred to a "working standard" rather than a strict conformation standard. Sled dogs can vary from kennel to kennel and even within the same kennel, depending on what traits a musher is attempting to develop or duplicate.
> 
> In fact, there are three main sub-categories within the Alaskan Husky dog breed; light-weight sprinters, distance runners and freight dogs. The most commonly seen and recognized are the "distance Alaskans". These are the dogs you see in the Iditarod, the Yukon Quest and other long-distance sled dog races.
> 
> The heavier variety of sled dog is referred to as a "freighter". This sled-dog type leans heavily towards the larger Malamute type of Spitz breeds and can sometimes have some St. Bernard, McKenzie River Husky or other large breed in them. Used mainly for hauling heavy loads in the past, these dogs now also excel at weight-pulling contests.
> 
> Lighter-weight Alaskan Huskies or "sprinters" are referred to as Eurohounds in some circles. Contrary to the "sled dog" many people envision, sprint dogs are often fairly small, short-haired, highly enthusiastic athletes specifically bred for short, intense sprint races where there is no need to sleep outdoors or mush for many hours in frigid weather. These dogs look like mixed-breed mutts to outsiders, but the thought and care put into their breeding is as intense as the competitive sprint races they excel in.
> 
> The "average" Alaskan Husky is a hardy dog with upright or partially upright ears. Most Alaskan Huskies have a dense, short to medium-length double coat to protect from ice, wind and rain and the endurance to travel up to 100 miles in a 24 hour period while pulling 80+ pounds each. Alaskan Huskies come in any coat or eye color, but long-haired and single-coated dogs are discouraged in the breed.
> 
> On closer examination, an experienced dog breeder might discern traits of not only the Siberian Husky, Malamute, Samoyed or other Spitz-breed dogs that the Alaskan Husky breed was founded on, but also a sprinkling of Border Collie (superb intelligence), Pointer (enthusiasm and focus) and hound (sight-hounds like the Saluki may seem an odd addition, but these hounds of the desert add speed and endurance - invaluable assets in a sled dog). This is the ultimate "designer dog"!
> 
> Alaskan Huskies are not show dogs. It is unlikely that sled dogs will ever be recognized as a "true" dog breed because there is no true preferred type other than a generalized "northern dog type" and no pedigree or proven ancestry is necessary. They are bred for stamina, speed and the desire to pull a sled no matter what the conditions. This breed is based more on attitude than conformation.
> 
> The history of true northern sled dog stretches back thousands of years and across literally all of the northern continents. The only source of land transportation used by early North American natives; the ancestors of our modern day Alaskan Husky were essential partners for hunting, trapping and protection as well as transportation. Without sled dogs, explorers like Byrd, Amundson and Peary would have found exploration and travel on the frozen tundra of two continents virtually impossible.
> 
> A breed apart &#8230; the Alaskan Husky dog is ideally suited for the rugged country that it is so appropriately named for.
> 
> MORE INFO
> Sled Dog Central : A Deeper History of the Origins of the Alaskan Husky by Stephanie Little Wolf


i had to throw this tidbit in, did you know the husky
is the worlds fastest land animal over distance?

this is true, they can maintain speeds up to 18mph
for over 30 miles at a clip. gotta love man made dogs.

btw, great thread this turned into.


----------



## Old_Blood

Behavior and temperament are genetic. Environment and genetics are linked. This doesn't make your breeding theory true.

Some people might breed HA Pits and the same of GSD but GSD are not typically bred to be human aggressive. It isn't the intent. Superb war dog? What does that even mean. Todays military dogs are intelligent and versatile. They are not the war dogs of ancient dogs which simply main and kill in the battlefield. 

This is a saying in the GSD world I was told by a GSD person.
If you walk up to a GSD and kick it. It should bite you.
If you walk up to a GSD and trip over it. It should do nothing.

They are not bred with a high level of HA, very few breeds truly are.

On the contrary I have video of my Caucasian Ovcharka showing how unapproachable they can be. That is genetic and HA is the required temperament unlike in the GSD. 

Um yeah AP that's what I do. Watch hours of that to learn about dog breeds. Not! Lmao. To my knowledge they don't provide info but are about shows like Pit Boss or Crocodile Hunter. So you are either making a ridiculous assumption or your psychic ability is rusty and has me confused with someone else.
Nowhere in your copy and paste did it say Husky is an inuit term for working wolf dog (because it is not). Actually it didn't even state that they are using wolf blood. Alaskan Huskies are a mixture of a number of breeds. People use what works. A good old fashion type being bred for purpose. Not for a fancy pedigree and cookie cutter build. This is true in other breeds/breed type as well.


----------



## Firehazard

Old_Blood said:


> Behavior and temperament are genetic. Environment and genetics are linked. This doesn't make your breeding theory true.
> 
> Some people might breed HA Pits and the same of GSD but GSD are not typically bred to be human aggressive. It isn't the intent. Superb war dog? What does that even mean. Todays military dogs are intelligent and versatile. They are not the war dogs of ancient dogs which simply main and kill in the battlefield.
> 
> This is a saying in the GSD world I was told by a GSD person.
> If you walk up to a GSD and kick it. It should bite you.
> If you walk up to a GSD and trip over it. It should do nothing.
> 
> They are not bred with a high level of HA, very few breeds truly are.
> 
> On the contrary I have video of my Caucasian Ovcharka showing how unapproachable they can be. That is genetic and HA is the required temperament unlike in the GSD.
> 
> Um yeah AP that's what I do. Watch hours of that to learn about dog breeds. Not! Lmao. To my knowledge they don't provide info but are about shows like Pit Boss or Crocodile Hunter. So you are either making a ridiculous assumption or your psychic ability is rusty and has me confused with someone else.
> Nowhere in your copy and paste did it say Husky is an inuit term for working wolf dog (because it is not). Actually it didn't even state that they are using wolf blood. Alaskan Huskies are a mixture of a number of breeds. People use what works. A good old fashion type being bred for purpose. Not for a fancy pedigree and cookie cutter build. This is true in other breeds/breed type as well.


actually it mentioned wolves intertwining withthe working dogs.. and what I posted was so people see that HUSKY is a FUNCTION term NOT a breed term its just associated with a breed much like ABPT is a function dog.

http://www.sleddogcentral.com/features/little_wolf/alaskans.htm

Im SORRY I WAS WRONG.. Chukchi is the term for the working wolf dog named from its place of origin and to describe the specific working dogs from that area. Husky is european derivative of Chukchi.

Siberian Husky Dog Origins

Every GSD or Malinois that has come from a renounced SCH or K9 breeder have been horrible with strangers and WAY over protective, from OSBI work and personally rehabilitating HA dogs, that I KNOW there ARE a GOOD DEAL of GSDs that JUST wanna' get people like game APBTs wanna get another game ABPT.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

performanceknls said:


> You guys have this all wrong, Schutzhund sport is not the same as attack or protection training. I work several APBT's in Schutzhund and it is mostly prey based with a little defense. If Siren goes after the helper in the sleeve and the helper drops the sleeve and walks away Siren would not bite. It all has to do with the sleeve being what the dog wants not the person. Now some dogs are sharper than others and my old Zebo bred male was like that. As we all know that is not typical of the APBT's temperament and dogs like that are the exception rather than the rule.
> 
> I work several Gamebred dogs in the sport and it is not the same as training a person protection dog. This is where public ignorance comes in, be educated about the difference and you will see they are not the same. I do not think any bulldog type breed should be trained for personal protection or guard work gamebred or not.
> 
> I have not read this whole thread just the last few pages, BTW


I agree FH fantastic post! Rep coming your way lisa!



Firehazard said:


> Na.. just stressin a point.. I forget that CAPS means
> 
> LOL


lol alright


----------



## Old_Blood

Belgian Malinois and GSD are two different animals. I'd say my Malinois had more defense drive then 2 sport bred GSDs.


----------



## william williamson

Old_Blood said:


> Belgian Malinois and GSD are two different animals. I'd say my Malinois had more defense drive then 2 sport bred GSDs.


thats whats got me interested in them.
I'll be moving back to costa Rica.last time I lived there was with my pit and ACD.they have manicured responses for different situations because they've been with me so long. the ACD is 11 and the pit 8.they are set dogs.and raising A dog like the Mali with them and with it I will work an actual training regimen.
theirs A whole different use and need for A sentry type dog there.law enforcement is all but non existant.


----------



## Sadie

performanceknls said:


> You guys have this all wrong, Schutzhund sport is not the same as attack or protection training. I work several APBT's in Schutzhund and it is mostly prey based with a little defense. If Siren goes after the helper in the sleeve and the helper drops the sleeve and walks away Siren would not bite. It all has to do with the sleeve being what the dog wants not the person. Now some dogs are sharper than others and my old Zebo bred male was like that. As we all know that is not typical of the APBT's temperament and dogs like that are the exception rather than the rule.
> 
> I work several Gamebred dogs in the sport and it is not the same as training a person protection dog. This is where public ignorance comes in, be educated about the difference and you will see they are not the same. I do not think any bulldog type breed should be trained for personal protection or guard work gamebred or not.
> 
> I have not read this whole thread just the last few pages, BTW


Lisa I just don't agree with it not for this breed. There are plenty of game dog owners who don't agree with it as this topic is always discussed on other game dog forums. But to each his own I feel there are much better suitable breeds bred for the sport and the APBT is not one of them. I am not telling anyone what they can and can't do with their dogs. I just wouldn't do it with my own. And I have talked to several people about this both for and against it before I made the choice not to go that route with my own dogs.


----------



## LadyRampage

Sadie said:


> Lisa I just don't agree with it not for this breed. There are plenty of game dog owners who don't agree with it as this topic is always discussed on other game dog forums. But to each his own I feel there are much better suitable breeds bred for the sport and the APBT is not one of them. I am not telling anyone what they can and can't do with their dogs. I just wouldn't do it with my own. And I have talked to several people about this both for and against it before I made the choice not to go that route with my own dogs.


I agree Sadie. I have never liked to see the APBT in any type of protection work, or any aggression toward people, even if controled.


----------



## junkyard

I would have no issues with the apbt as a shutz/ french ring dog if only the average joe didnt have an opinion on it. I actually think they would be one of the better dogs suited to it with the amount of drive they have and i think they could do it better than breeds made for the job in a good example.

I had an old client who had an staff[english] he had train as a personal protection dog, he also had 20 gsd's 30malonois and 10 or so rottweilers, all trained in the same manner, as it was his business, after twent years of running it he had never had a dog as good as the stafford was , a little short for his liking but the dog itself was the best he had had in its traits and reliability. The second he had was an Australian pig dog breed we call the bull arab, an extremely loving people friendly breed.

They were personal protection dogs and pets [most of them] and if they were not at work they were just another dog. You wouldnt know any different about their night job if you saw them in the day, but once they had their collar and jacket on the were all business. People cant seem to grasp that side of it, its a game, a job they dont want to attack its just a part of their training as is a shutz dog is attacking the sleeve not the person, show me one time that you have seen a shutz dog drop the sleeve and chase the dummy once the sleeve has came off?

My issue is Joe public doesnt know the difference and when an apbt is used for any of these jobs it concretes the foundations that they are seen as human aggressive. Sad but true.
Fact is i know a few of my USA counterparts who use their dogs[gamebred apbt] for these jobs and do it well, what they choose to do with their dogs is up to them but i dont have to agree, sad realy they love to do the work and the types who do it care for their dogs better than most.
One has even told me that besides the people at the local french ring club, no one would ever know that they are used for that role so they do no harm to the breed in their own eyes.

No biggie its just not for me, if i wanted a protection dog or a french ring dog i think there are a couple i would want to try before the APBT Like the Fila or a Fila or maybee a Fila.


----------



## Old_Blood

Firehazard said:


> actually it mentioned wolves intertwining withthe working dogs.. and what I posted was so people see that HUSKY is a FUNCTION term NOT a breed term its just associated with a breed much like ABPT is a function dog.
> 
> Sled Dog Central : A Deeper History of the Origins of the Alaskan Husky by Stephanie Little Wolf
> 
> Im SORRY I WAS WRONG.. Chukchi is the term for the working wolf dog named from its place of origin and to describe the specific working dogs from that area. Husky is european derivative of Chukchi.
> 
> Siberian Husky Dog Origins
> 
> Every GSD or Malinois that has come from a renounced SCH or K9 breeder have been horrible with strangers and WAY over protective, from OSBI work and personally rehabilitating HA dogs, that I KNOW there ARE a GOOD DEAL of GSDs that JUST wanna' get people like game APBTs wanna get another game ABPT.


I didn't read the link only what you posted. Chukchi are the people native to the land, husky is sort of a counterpart to that derived from native language. It applied to the dogs, such as you said to describe those dogs but not with the word having specific meaning.


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## ashes

agreeing with sadie


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## Old_Blood

junkyard said:


> I would have no issues with the apbt as a shutz/ french ring dog if only the average joe didnt have an opinion on it. I actually think they would be one of the better dogs suited to it with the amount of drive they have and i think they could do it better than breeds made for the job in a good example


I agree. The key is education. People think the dogs are mean and aggressive (including other breeds they get the wrong idea). HA isn't required for sport and won't make a dog bite people, be HA, untrustworthy, ect. It is simply a game and the human isn't the true target. The bite work is just one part if Schutzhund as well. People have misconceptions about it, I think it is better to educate them rather then simply not do it. Even people with other breeds have similar problems. Rottweilers are known to be a guardian type breed but people see them in Schutzhund and it cemented in their mind that they are killing machines bred simply to attack and will turn on humans. They don't have a clue at what they are looking at. I've even heard somethings from outraged Rottweiler owners about those doing bite work are the reason Rottweilers attack, have a bad name, are banned, ect. Ignorance at its finest.

I met a lady at a show which does it with her Corsos and Pit. The dogs are just as stable as any other. This was an all breed show where people don't mind crowding you! Not to mention she takes them out in public places, petco and so on. The dogs are not crazed people killers.



> They were personal protection dogs and pets [most of them] and if they were not at work they were just another dog. You wouldnt know any different about their night job if you saw them in the day, but once they had their collar and jacket on the were all business. People cant seem to grasp that side of it, its a game, a job they dont want to attack its just a part of their training as is a shutz dog is attacking the sleeve not the person, *show me one time that you have seen a shutz dog drop the sleeve and chase the dummy once the sleeve has came off?*


Exactly. A true HA dog will. Your average sport dog, many participating in it won't. There are some who will which is not in relation to sport itself. It's the dogs breeding and temperament. There are true highly defensive HA dogs and they don't care about a sleeve. They will keep coming. Those dogs only have one thing on their mind.


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## performanceknls

Education is the key in no way are my dogs HA it is all a game to them now if you take a more serious breed like the GSD or Mal then it is a different story. The ppl who are against bulldogs in Sch sport are uneducated on the sport, not to say you are stupid just that you do not understand what it is all about and how HA is not apart of it. Ppl will always not like to see them do that type of work but the fact remains they can excel in the sport. 

I do agree that other breeds are better suited for it! My scores at the last Sch trial proved that! lol Siren lost a lot of points in the bite work because she is not intimidating enough when she is barking. The bark and hold should deter someone from moving, Siren makes you want to laugh at her because she is so small and her bark high pitched. Also GSD are bred for the sport ans many things come naturally to them, I really have to work hard to over come my some things in the APBT's personality.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

jmo and I'm not very familiar with the sport but I think a excessive ha dog wouldnt be good and since the apbt was breed not to be ha would be an advantage at lease on the aspect of stoping the attack I guess you could call it. Ive seen many vids of police dogs not immediatly(sp) stopping and to me this is one cause the dog is over excited by the attack or ha. And either way the dog should be fallowing comands shouldnt they? rather than deciding them selves weather to attck. but yes non educated people should never participate with anything dangerous wether that be shooting, fighting or teaching dogs bite work


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## Firehazard

THE APBT is a catch and [] match dog; its game bred to be able to endure any amount of pain and still pursue victory....... No dog that can fight for 3hrs should be HA or promoted to be through training. < I mean some laymen who want a guard dog)

Lisa and her Kennel have a good program inwhich as she says she is excercising her dogs intelligence and athleticism, its a game to them.. because APBTs are NOT HA.. Hooch failed his first two trials for similar actions, just wouldnt grab the perp in the suit, Hooch was all paws, like quit playin.. ANYWAY

Unless its an educated person *PROFESSIONAL* JMO then you should not be attempting this at home.. LOL Not everyone has the education and the time let alone the accountability of trainging HA APBTs. TO offer proof, this discussion has come up before and I posted some XL bully breeders who specialize in MANSTOPPERS and their dogs are heavy HA. HOWEVER these selectively bred game/working lines that PK has with a lil show line here or there is NOTHING like it, great dogs, great trainer.

Once tribes breed wolves the FIRST litter RAISED by MAN are DOGS!<<<<<<<<<<< Laika means dog that barks for instance, Chukchi are working dogs, but to the WEST working wolf dogs, because they are wolf dogs... still wolf in the eyes of western politics.

You can breed and harbor mental traits and mental disorders as well such as AGGRESSION... 
example: HA dogs .......... MANY more to POST... Lisa @ PK is a one of kind JMO. In general the APBT should not be used for or bred for GUARD work. LEADS TO THESE..
Loyal Guard Kennels - Pitt Bulls

Blue Pitbull Males in Atlanta Georgia


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Firehazard said:


> Unless its an educated person *PROFESSIONAL* JMO then you should not be attempting this at home.. LOL Not everyone has the education and the time let alone the accountability of trainging HA APBTs.
> You can breed and harbor mental traits and mental disorders as well such as AGGRESSION...


very well put but I think I would go a step further and say that any training should be done by a well educated person bc many activities such as weight pull and obstical corses( darn cant think right now) done improprely could cause serious damage to the animal. education is the key word here


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## performanceknls

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> jmo and I'm not very familiar with the sport but I think a excessive ha dog wouldnt be good and since the apbt was breed not to be ha would be an advantage at lease on the aspect of stoping the attack I guess you could call it. Ive seen many vids of police dogs not immediatly(sp) stopping and to me this is one cause the dog is over excited by the attack or ha. And either way the dog should be fallowing comands shouldnt they? rather than deciding them selves weather to attck. but yes non educated people should never participate with anything dangerous wether that be shooting, fighting or teaching dogs bite work


This is the key no HA dog should be doing any type of protection sport no matter what breed they are. Not even Police dogs are HA, there is a difference between HA and willingness to bite. Granted many police dogs can be sharp and have high aggression, HA is not what drives them. Dogs with HA are not allowed to train with our club. We have kids walking all over and a ton of people that come to watch. We cannot take the risk someone will get bit.



Firehazard said:


> THE APBT is a catch and [] match dog; its game bred to be able to endure any amount of pain and still pursue victory....... No dog that can fight for 3hrs should be HA or promoted to be through training. < I mean some laymen who want a guard dog)
> 
> Lisa and her Kennel have a good program inwhich as she says she is excercising her dogs intelligence and athleticism, its a game to them.. because APBTs are NOT HA.. Hooch failed his first two trials for similar actions, just wouldnt grab the perp in the suit, Hooch was all paws, like quit playin.. ANYWAY
> 
> Unless its an educated person *PROFESSIONAL* JMO then you should not be attempting this at home.. LOL Not everyone has the education and the time let alone the accountability of trainging HA APBTs. TO offer proof, this discussion has come up before and I posted some XL bully breeders who specialize in MANSTOPPERS and their dogs are heavy HA. HOWEVER these selectively bred game/working lines that PK has with a lil show line here or there is NOTHING like it, great dogs, great trainer.
> 
> Once tribes breed wolves the FIRST litter RAISED by MAN are DOGS!<<<<<<<<<<< Laika means dog that barks for instance, Chukchi are working dogs, but to the WEST working wolf dogs, because they are wolf dogs... still wolf in the eyes of western politics.
> 
> You can breed and harbor mental traits and mental disorders as well such as AGGRESSION...
> example: HA dogs .......... MANY more to POST... Lisa @ PK is a one of kind JMO. In general the APBT should not be used for or bred for GUARD work. LEADS TO THESE..
> Loyal Guard Kennels - Pitt Bulls
> 
> Blue Pitbull Males in Atlanta Georgia


I do not breed dogs for guard work instead I look for drive. I also agree no matter what sport you do with your dog you should have experienced ppl to train with.


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## Cindy1979

Kayo45 said:


> All gamebred bulldogs have a level of DA to them. Some go insane at the site of another dog while others will tolerate other dogs while not in a [] as long as they do not try to challenge them. Not sure about specific lines throwing specifically situationally aggressive bulldogs but Gambler's Virgil was great with other dogs and animals while not in the [] and heard that that was passed into his offspring


Are American Bullies not so Dog agressive???


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## aussie monster pitt

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> a better example would be of wanting something like a boxer will to fight may even like to but not trying to attack eveything.


if thats what you want why not just get a boxer then?
if u dont want DA dont get a APBT just saying


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## rob32

Cindy1979 said:


> Are American Bullies not so Dog agressive???


generally speaking i wouldnt think bullies are as aggressive as a true APBT dog. a lot of bully breeders actually try to breed out DA in their stock.


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## stonerreakinhavok

Firehazard said:


> Training APBTs for GUARD work or using them as K9s..
> 
> If you train two apbts for guard work, breed them together and raise the pups doing the same work ... THERE WILL BE A HA GENE POP UP....


i know im kind of late but i dont think human aggression is a gene... it'd be more of an instinct...

if it was there would be a whole mathmatical scientific theory that you would be able to follow to breed out HA or DA. by every thing you guys have just said theres still some degree of da in the pitbull there by making it an instinct.

A=agression c=cull

Agression being the dominant trait and cull ussually being the recessive 
say you have a male thats agressive then it would be Aa or Ac
and a female that is cold Ca or CC i think thats how the 
A c 
A AA Ac

c Ac cc

so you would end up with 1 full aggressive dog, 2 half agressive dogs (Small possibility that being cold could be the dominant trait but not likely), and 1 full cold dog.

if it was genetic agression could be bred out by taking a full cull out of every litter and breeding them to create an animal carrying only cull genetics


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## stonerreakinhavok

Firehazard said:


> You create a man aggressive gene... yes they do work like that, sociopaths for example are sometimes created from MANIPULATIVE parents who DO NOT SHOW their children LOVE.. This is also passed down from parent to child... LOL its psychology, yes Im going to Psych Lab this semester and shooting for my psych D.


its not genetic its taught and the more it becomes taught the more it becomes instinct i dont think instinct is a genetic while you cant teach instinct you cant breed it out either. and if you cant breed it out then its not a gene


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## Celestial88

Instinct = genetic


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## Eagle

DA in APBT's is INSTINCTIVE. Some dogs are mellow while others are not.
I know of breeders that must seperate the pups at 6 weeks or they'd kill each other.
Some dogs are fine with others as long as they are not provoked. Others never will be.

HA that is hereditary is a severe fault, and not to be tolerated, especially with all the attacks going on, and the BSL storming.
Training a dog for protection is not the same as training it for HA. It is a controlled "violence." Only well bred dogs can and should be trained in this.
IMO the APBT should not be trained for this, but that's just me.
When professionally trained, they are superb. But not every dog can do it.
But the first qualification should be a stable tempermant.
It should not be in naturally HA dogs.


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## stonerreakinhavok

Celestial88 said:


> Instinct = genetic


if instistinct was genetic you would be able to breed it out of any dog. i dont know of anyway or any one who can breed instinct out of a dog


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## motocross308

stonerreakinhavok said:


> if instistinct was genetic you would be able to breed it out of any dog. i dont know of anyway or any one who can breed instinct out of a dog


You can only breed out a genetic trait by finding dog that lack the trait.
many showlines have worked for generations to reduce DA and have been greatly successful but a dog is a dog and any dog has a trigger that can be pushed. Its a short trip back to your roots.


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## Celestial88

If it weren't, then how is it passed down through generation to generation of wild animals? They inherit it.

Which is


> the reception of genetic qualities by transmission from parent to offspring


http://www.sparknotes.com/biology/animalbehavior/instinct/section4.rhtml


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## Eagle

stonerreakinhavok said:


> if instistinct was genetic you would be able to breed it out of any dog. i dont know of anyway or any one who can breed instinct out of a dog


I believe it can be lost in dogs. Look what happened to the AST, who was once the same breed. Different bloodlines carry various degree's of prey-drive. Some breeders will not sell their dogs to the public due to this. So, yes, dogs can lose instincts/genetics. Look at many of the breeds in the AKC. Their original use has been nearly lost.


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## Firehazard

Dogs intinct cannot be manipulated through scientific breeding practices??? THEN HOW ARE THERE 1001 breeds down from wolves all with different intincts INBRED and OUTCROSSED in or out? I've been breeding sled dogs since .. since.. and wolves in rehabilitation in Okla then I got a bulldog in 2000 been active ever since.. THERE IS a HA gene! You can cull it out! 

Like PK stated THE BEST POLICE AND TACTICAL DOGS ARE DOGs that HAVE HIGH BALL DRIVE SPECIFICALLY out of those BREEDS selected for such DUTIES. BECAUSE THEY ARENT LOOKING FOR DRUGS OR BOMBS.. THEY ARE LOOKING FOR THAT EFFIN BALL! The best police dogs are working APBTs that are bred for high end and are NOT HA. THEY HAVE TO BE TRAINED TO BE HA.. Check out some K9 training videos you can clearly see HA is natural for the Belgian Malinois >> LOL .. . dont give me that intincts can't be bred in or out.. 

The REAL APBT is supposed to NOT EVER SHOW TEETH or BRISTLED hair.. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE QUIET AND HIT LIKE A TON OF BRICKS! That came with BREEEDING those intincts in and CULLING the undesired OUT.

The CAPS arent YELLING.. IM stressing points; I gotta party to get the place ready for so Im out.. Ya'll better read on some genetics for about a year or two at least before you come telling me this or that; what I got is from book knowledge acquired with Life experience proving ALL THEM OLD MEN RIGHT.. all this science and the old timers had it right all along.


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## Eagle

Good one Firehazard...my cousin is a K-9 cop and do you know why a majority of police depts purchase a pup from small European countries? Because they are bred by old timers who have kept them in their "natural" form, not oversized and bred for this or that.
They are bred to be German Shepards.

Funny you pointed out the "NEVER SHOW TEETH or BRISTLED hair..." My 2 1/2 year old male has earned himself the nickname, "the Silent Assassin," because a neighbor once saw him staring at a big loose dog, and instead of barking at him, he backed up to give himself room for when the dog got into zone...he literally showed no intent, and was crouched low like a spring with his tail wagging....the rest is history. Just glad it was a year ago, and that dog had long hair.

Yes, it is through culling that HA is weeded out, as it should...and how many other factors are decided.
I can't say I trust science, since those bookworms and lab rats believe in evolution, and try and tell me I came from a monkey...but that's a topic for another board.


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## Firehazard

Eagle said:


> Good one Firehazard...my cousin is a K-9 cop and do you know why a majority of police depts purchase a pup from small European countries? Because they are bred by old timers who have kept them in their "natural" form, not oversized and bred for this or that.
> They are bred to be German Shepards.
> 
> Funny you pointed out the "NEVER SHOW TEETH or BRISTLED hair..." My 2 1/2 year old male has earned himself the nickname, "the Silent Assassin," because a neighbor once saw him staring at a big loose dog, and instead of barking at him, he backed up to give himself room for when the dog got into zone...he literally showed no intent, and was crouched low like a spring with his tail wagging....the rest is history. Just glad it was a year ago, and that dog had long hair.
> 
> Yes, it is through culling that HA is weeded out, as it should...and how many other factors are decided.
> I can't say I trust science, since those bookworms and lab rats believe in evolution, and try and tell me I came from a monkey...but that's a topic for another board.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost: yep me too; I used to be in K9s and yes they come from europe and for that said reason.. mali's are the perfect blend of APBT/GSD putting the best of both together and REAL mali's come with a cert of authenticity no ped or that crap..  I LOVE working dogs ..

:clap: man, I agree on so many levels~


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