# 2x jeep, red boy, and carver help



## jdean36

I have a 2x Jeep, red boy, and Carver fawn blue female and I need some suggestions on what blood line to breed here with. I want some blue but I also want to keep them game short, stocky, and blocked heads. My buddy has a gotti/york blue brendle what should I do


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## SEO

jdean36 said:


> I have a 2x Jeep, red boy, and Carver fawn blue female and I need some suggestions on what blood line to breed here with. I want some blue but I also want to keep them game short, stocky, and blocked heads. My buddy has a gotti/york blue brendle what should I do


!!DO NOT PROCED WITH THIS BREEDING!! I am worning you. One mere srep and I will jump.


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## jdean36

Why is that


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## Indigo Bully Connection

jdean36 said:


> I have a 2x Jeep, red boy, and Carver fawn blue female and I need some suggestions on what blood line to breed here with. I want some blue but I also want to keep them game short, stocky, and blocked heads. My buddy has a gotti/york blue brendle what should I do


wait wait... you're telling me you have a jeep/red boy/ carver dog that is Blue Fawn???? Gotti/york is not a complimentary dog to those bloodlines, but what really confuses me is the bloodlines vs the colors. Normally colors aren't a determining factor with bloodlines, but the ones you posted do not match the blue gene.

There are other reasons, that I will elaborate on, but I'm curious to find out how you got the blue gene with those lines.


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## Sadie's Dad

Makes a bunch of popcorn, sets up stadium seating. Munches popcorn, waits for the others to show up.


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## jdean36

Mine is a fawn blue a real light tan ma friends dog is a blue brendle that's gotti and York don't know if I should breed my dog with his


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## jdean36

I want to have a litter with some blues


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## Jax_09

Sadie's Dad said:


> Makes a bunch of popcorn, sets up stadium seating. Munches popcorn, waits for the others to show up.


:rofl: got my ticket...


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## Sadie's Dad

You should not be breeding. You will only ad to the problem of overcrowding the shelter. If you have say 8 pups. That is possibly eight dogs that are not adopted out of a shelter. So you are making the problem worse. You need to rethink you goals. Breed for the bettering the breed not to breed for color that is just not smart if you ask me. IMHO


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## jdean36

You right about breeding for the color but I don't think you should jump the gun saying I shouldn't be breeding that's why I'm on here to get educated about the breed and breeding before I do it


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## StaffyDaddy

If you mix those "bloodlines" if they really are that, you will have a scatterbred litter of Ambully Puppies. It won't even be tight, you'll have a big open gene pool, which can open doors to health problems and temperament issues. Im confused as to why you would want to breed game lines to bully lines.. 

And second of all, if you have to ask questions like this you have NO business breeding. Leave it to the people that have taken time to really research and KNOW their lines ahd what traits they carry, and ones who are striving to better the breed. IMO you are setting yourself up to get flamed on this site, and damaging both the APBT as well as the AmBully with this so called breeding.


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## Sadie's Dad

jdean36 said:


> You right about breeding for the color but I don't think you should jump the gun saying I shouldn't be breeding that's why I'm on here to get educated about the breed and breeding before I do it


You didn't say that, for all we know you are a BYB just breedin for the money.


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## jdean36

OK so where should I start wit researching any websites I should check out because I wanna get in to breeding just need a little guidance


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## jdean36

OK well that's what I want to do give me some advice on where to start with research if that's not to much to ask


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## Sadie's Dad

We are trying to promote responsibility for our breed. The more people pump out pups the more the shelters fill up. Especially around Christmas I am not saying that it is just pitbulls around the holidays but alot of breeds will end up in the shelters because people don't think about what happens with the dog after the joy is gone from getting it for Christmas. They will say oh my kid is not taking care of it so I will send it to the shelter, We just can't afford the dog it's eating everything in the house. And there are many other excuses for why the pup is going to end up in a shelter. I am not the only one you will hear this from.


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## jdean36

I fully understand that and that's wrong but what um saying is I want in on all this good information and knowledge can you help with that


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## Aidan

Ok, let me put it to ya like this.

There are 1000s of people like you. Exactly like you. They think they can get educated, make some puppies, make some money, and do it all the right way. They are 1000% wrong. The only right away about doing this is by not doing it. The world is filled with back yard breeders putting out pups that end up in the wrong peoples hands, that breed their dogs, and so fourth. All this causes so many of our beloved breed to end up in shelters. People are not health testing their dogs, they are not waiting until the correct age of 2 to find out what kind of termperment their dog has. A good breeder, has registered dogs, competes them, shows them, titles them. Then and only then, should someone be breeding their dog, to produce more pups that will be registered, and titled as well.

You have to have a goal, you have to have a program. You have to have the money to do the correct health testing that goes into breeding. You have to be able to place 6 to 13 puppies in a good home, that you know will give their dog the proper ownership. If 1 dog goes to a bad home, or 1 dog ends up in the shelter, you have not done your job right.

Please, please, just stick around to the site, and learn what our true mission here is at gopitbull. We are not rude, or mean in any way. We only truly try to look out for the breeds best interest.


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## Jax_09

You have come to the right place to ask questions and receive good advice. I hope you take the responses that way, as good advice. Take some time to explore the forums and read some of the stickies, esp the one pertaining to breeding. Keep in mind that not everybody is cut out to be a breeder, and there is nothing wrong with that. Leave it to the people with the knowledge and the proper facilities.


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## StaffyDaddy

It's not something you can just look up on websites. Responsible breeders are active within the "pitbull" community. That means showing your dogs, working your dogs, health testing and titling your dogs in different events and promoting the breed in a good light. There's already a bad stigma around the breed, and breeding with no accomplishments does not help the cause.

Most dogs are bred with little to no purpose, many ending up in shelters, or being put down because of unsound temperaments and sever genetic diseases. Also, a lot of dogs are bred with no papers, and still sold as "pure bred" adding to the already overflowing population of "petbulls" or mutts, and mostly it's all for the money.

Breeding for color is actually wrong, especially when breeding blue on blue. Blue dogs tend to have more genetic disorders that are passed down in recessive genes and when you breed blue on blue, you are just opening the gene pool to more of those tainted genes. 

As stated before the two bloodlines should NOT be crossed, the dogs are of a very different background (if you have pedigrees you can see this) and will make for a crapshoot when determining how the pups will come out. You'll more than likely get smaller dogs with some big exceptions, real inconsistency basically.

When you are ready to breed, you will know. You won't have questions about bloodlines, you'll have done your research, and the dogs in your stock will all be of sound conformation, and titled. You will know what bloodlines should be added and what shouldn't, and you will get a better feel for what traits you don't want in a certain breeding, making it easier for you to match a dog up. Also, you should never breed a female until at least two years of age. And remember that breeding is expensive, but it's no reason to turn the cost over to the buyer with high prices. It's not about the money, if you're passionate about the breed you will breed with a goal in mind, not for color or monetary gain.


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## Aidan

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/2931-breeders-code-ethics.html

^read that


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## 10616

....................


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## jdean36

Thanks y'all good information really appreciate it like y'all said it's to many backyard breeders and I damn sure don't wanna be that I will research and not breed ma dog until I'm really really comfortable with ma knowledge on the breed thanks a bunch


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## 10616

.................................


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## Aidan

What is your main purpose for breeding? Is your dog registered?


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## StaffyDaddy

pesifik_oshen said:


> I would like to point out that you are breeding two, completely unrelated dogs in terms of purpose, which will most likely produce a wide array of characteristics. If you're sole purpose is to produce short, stocky, big headed, blue pups, then a better option for you is to buy a pup from a breeder that breeds for these characteristics. Sounds like that bitch you own is bred honest, so you should keep it that way.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...


One is bully bred the other probably bred closer to game type dogs. While both are beautiful dogs in their own way, they do not belong on a pups pedigree together

And to the OP I wanted to add one thing. When you breed, you are not just finding buyers for the pups. All the pups should be considered your own, and you should be willing to buy back the pup in the case that the new owner is not financially stable or living in poor conditions. Any genetic disease discovered within a reasonable amount of time when evaluated by a vet should also be covered by the breeder.

I once read a shocking statistic. For every 600 bully breed pups bred in America, only 2 find permanent, responsible owners and homes. That's 1/300 ratio, and it's quite disgusting. It's due to wanting to breed for "bad a$$" pups, breeding for color, breeding to preserve someones pets, accidental litters, breeding for money, and because not everyone should own these dogs. When a breed is so oppressed by ignorance and media hype, it takes a different kind of owner with real responsibility and knowledge of the breed beforehand. Everyone these days wants a Pitbull, and half don't know the difference between a true American Pitbull Terrier, a mix, or an American Bully.


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## jdean36

Aidan said:


> What is your main purpose for breeding? Is your dog registered?


Apbr my purpose in wanting to breed is to show people that just because its supposed to be a viscous breed that they can be just as sweet as a yorkie its all how you raise them and you purpose of having it my purpose is security but she wont even do that to sweet


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## Aidan

So your dogs are not registered? Papers?


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## Jax_09

jdean36 said:


> Apbr my purpose in wanting to breed is to show people that just because its supposed to be a viscous breed that they can be just as sweet as a yorkie its all how you raise them and you purpose of having it my purpose is security but she wont even do that to sweet


There are alot ways to get involved with promoting the breed in a positive way that do not involve breeding. If providing the masses with good pets is your ultimate goal, why not promote adopting from a shelter? As we all know, there are a lot of perfectly good dogs living their lives in shelters that need a home.


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## StaffyDaddy

If your dogs are not registered PLEASE don't breed them. You can be a good ambassador for your breed of choice by enrolling them in obedience classes, achieving Canine Good Citizens titles, working them in events that accept all breeds, or even work them with the UKC or ADBA if you get them fixed. You can title unregistered dogs, but because the papers don't come from a valid registry, your bloodlines are actually unknown because there's no way to tell if they are accurate. Registries are about money, and there's papers hung in the ADBA and UKC too, but all other registries will basically register anything you call a pit. JMO


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## Jax_09

StaffyDaddy said:


> If your dogs are not registered PLEASE don't breed them. You can be a good ambassador for your breed of choice by enrolling them in obedience classes, achieving Canine Good Citizens titles, working them in events that accept all breeds, or even work them with the UKC or ADBA if you get them fixed. You can title unregistered dogs, but because the papers don't come from a valid registry, your bloodlines are actually unknown because there's no way to tell if they are accurate. Registries are about money, and there's papers hung in the ADBA and UKC too, but all other registries will basically register anything you call a pit. JMO


:goodpost:


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## Indigo Bully Connection

My point is Jeep, red boy do not make blue dogs. Carver... very slight possibility, but it has bred away from function. Stay tuned this evening I'll post an interview with Carver himself. Over the next few days I'll add more interviews which also add other Dogmens oppinions on Mr. Carver. You'll be surprised  

I think the first step in doing this all right would be to research and learn the most you can about bloodlines, what makes the bloodlines distinct (purpose, colors, and function). From there you'll be able to find the right dogs to get you started. At this point IMO, I think breeding should be put on the back burner, and I'm glad you're realising this. There's a lot of awesome people here. Some come across pretty gruff, but we all have the same passion in our hearts. The love of the dogs... it's much more than saying "we love these dogs"... it's more of a moral standard that we all strive to up hold. 

Dogs will vary on making the "cut" so to speak to be breedable. Our goal here not only to prevent some shelter dogs, but to help others produce the best dogs possible by helping them learn what they have, and what they really want.


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## StaffyDaddy

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> My point is Jeep, red boy do not make blue dogs. Carver... very slight possibility, but it has bred away from function. Stay tuned this evening I'll post an interview with Carver himself. Over the next few days I'll add more interviews which also add other Dogmens oppinions on Mr. Carver. You'll be surprised
> 
> I think the first step in doing this all right would be to research and learn the most you can about bloodlines, what makes the bloodlines distinct (purpose, colors, and function). From there you'll be able to find the right dogs to get you started. At this point IMO, I think breeding should be put on the back burner, and I'm glad you're realising this. There's a lot of awesome people here. Some come across pretty gruff, but we all have the same passion in our hearts. The love of the dogs... it's much more than saying "we love these dogs"... it's more of a moral standard that we all strive to up hold.
> 
> Dogs will vary on making the "cut" so to speak to be breedable. Our goal here not only to prevent some shelter dogs, but to help others produce the best dogs possible by helping them learn what they have, and what they really want.


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## Lex's Guardian

Sadie's Dad said:


> Makes a bunch of popcorn, sets up stadium seating. Munches popcorn, waits for the others to show up.


LoL, too funny


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## Firehazard

Before you breed, you should definitely own the place you intend on kennels and caring for the animals. If lease or renting it should be a secure situation for at least 2yrs; A breeder should be able and prepared to mentaly and fiscally care for all pups welped. .. Hmmm... ) A dog man once told me; "if your not prepared to keep all the pups you shouldn't be breeding".. We were talking about people who are interested in the idea as new hobby or experience. Post a photo of your dog.. I am just speculating that you have a Fawn Buckskin, but if you do have a blue fawn buckskin its 1 of 2 things most likely... The hair intertwined is actually black and white with fawn giving the BLUE hue(Ive seen Jeep/Lightner dogs like this), but if the hairs intertwined with the fawn are actually blue "silver-grey" then you have a dog with rung papers :rain: or _*you have that wondering strain of blue carver dogs*_. Either way.. You should enjoy the best of your dog and gather all the knowledge you can through the Stratton library, Faron, Jessup, and Sieminic they are the more affordable books to get ya' started.


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## Firehazard

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> My point is Jeep, red boy do not make blue dogs. Carver... very slight possibility, but it has bred away from function. Stay tuned this evening I'll post an interview with Carver himself. Over the next few days I'll add more interviews which also add other Dogmens oppinions on Mr. Carver. You'll be surprised
> 
> I think the first step in doing this all right would be to research and learn the most you can about bloodlines, what makes the bloodlines distinct (purpose, colors, and function). From there you'll be able to find the right dogs to get you started. At this point IMO, I think breeding should be put on the back burner, and I'm glad you're realising this. There's a lot of awesome people here. Some come across pretty gruff, but we all have the same passion in our hearts. The love of the dogs... it's much more than saying "we love these dogs"... it's more of a moral standard that we all strive to up hold.
> 
> Dogs will vary on making the "cut" so to speak to be breedable. Our goal here not only to prevent some shelter dogs, but to help others produce the best dogs possible by helping them learn what they have, and what they really want.


:clap::clap::clap::clap::thumbsup:


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## brin pit

*look at my dog*

hey there im new here and i have a bridle male pitbull and alot of people are saying hes to small for his age which is 6 months so i was wondering if you guys could give me a opinion. i feed him canadae and idk if that effects it, any info will help alot thanks. heres some pics
http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/b_rivchin/
http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/b_rivchin/IMG0019112.jpg


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## Marty

*My point is Jeep, red boy do not make blue dogs. *

You got that stuff right lmao 

I'll refrain from posting


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## Sampsons Dad

Your female sounds like a dog bred from working type dogs.
While your friends dog sounds like a bull dog type, that is mostly 
bred for bull dog looks. When or if you were to breed them it
would produce a watered down unpredictable mess.
I mean this will humility and respect.


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## brin pit

does my dog look like a pit? hes 6 month and is on canadae. does he look small for his age?


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## Sampsons Dad

brin pit said:


> hey there im new here and i have a bridle male pitbull and alot of people are saying hes to small for his age which is 6 months so i was wondering if you guys could give me a opinion. i feed him canadae and idk if that effects it, any info will help alot thanks. heres some pics
> Pictures by b_rivchin - Photobucket
> http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/b_rivchin/IMG0019112.jpg[/quote]
> 
> You should start another thread for this question.
> But your dog looks to be a good size.


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## SEO

Dude, first you need to learn what a APBT is, the difference between the different purposes of different bloodlines, you need to learn boodlines, how to read a pedigree. Bottom line, you need to stick around for a while and learn. After a while your mind will open and start thinking out of the box. There are allot of things you need to know about our breed. Do not breed until you can know what you are doing. Please, as a friend, just sit back and chill, look, read, listen and learn. You will be ok in a few years. By the way, your attitude towards breeding will not help you here. If you ask for advice you should be willing to listen and follow the advice given to you, be humble and read read read.

SEO


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## SEO

:goodpost:


Sampsons Dad said:


> You should start another thread for this question.
> But your dog looks to be a good size.


2nd that.


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## Firehazard

SEO said:


> Dude, first you need to learn what a APBT is, the difference between the different purposes of different bloodlines, you need to learn boodlines, how to read a pedigree. Bottom line, you need to stick around for a while and learn. After a while your mind will open and start thinking out of the box. There are allot of things you need to know about our breed. Do not breed until you can know what you are doing. Please, as a friend, just sit back and chill, look, read, listen and learn. You will be ok in a few years. By the way, your attitude towards breeding will not help you here. If you ask for advice you should be willing to listen and follow the advice given to you, be humble and read read read.
> 
> SEO


:goodpost::goodpost::clap:


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## gh32

jdean36 said:


> I have a 2x Jeep, red boy, and Carver fawn blue female and I need some suggestions on what blood line to breed here with. I want some blue but I also want to keep them game short, stocky, and blocked heads. My buddy has a gotti/york blue brendle what should I do


Please don't bring more blue dogs into the world.If your ped says 2X Jeep,Redboy and Carver you better look at what the rest of it says if the dog is blue.There's some other junk in there as well.


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## money_killer

no one here likes BYB dont u get that ? oh thats right ur one of them idiots


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## Aidan

gh32 said:


> Please don't bring more blue dogs into the world.If your ped says 2X Jeep,Redboy and Carver you better look at what the rest of it says if the dog is blue.There's some other junk in there as well.


whats wrong with blue dogs?


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## gh32

Aidan said:


> whats wrong with blue dogs?


Lots of things IMHO but I ain't going through this stuff again,if you want to feed a blue dog,go for it but I won't.But have you ever seen a Jeep/Redboy dog that was blue.That's my point,that and there's no reason in crossing game bred dogs with ambullies.


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## Firehazard

You know nothing is wrong with a blue, the dog men that already created this mess we have in the dog world today and had it refined... blue pit bulldog/terrier (pick your fancy) there were not, that gene settled in the Neopolitan... But today people breed for looks and not purpose so~WE ~ I have seen some blue dogs *I would love own and to use *as a working dog with my crew. I also bought supposedly a game blue beadreaux dog but I had to come off of him, wasn't well bred at all... I have only seen athletic blue stock come from Chaos of Illinois and dogs from them continualy bred to be "game". There are some Carver dogs with this attachment but that is speculated to be one of those swinford/carver crossing into the pit strain... But in this case.. to say you have game dog bloodlines but a blue dog.. is a bit strange. Which reminds me of the strange case of how the blue strain infiltrated the APBT stock. Ironic.. but I think by chance he has just got the color identification wrong... Some body told him that and so thats what it is..


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## Aidan

gh32 said:


> Lots of things IMHO but I ain't going through this crap again,if you want to feed a blue dog,go for it but I won't.But have you ever seen a Jeep/Redboy dog that was blue.That's my point,that and there's no reason in crossing game bred dogs with ambullies.


I'm not nearly as educated on the subject as I would like to be. Are you trying to say all blue APBTs came from a different breed at one point? Or are you just stating that towards the OP.


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## gh32

What I was saying is that the ped may say 2X Jeep/Redboy but there's other stuff in there to come up with a blue dog.Blue dogs at one time were EXTREMELY rare among gamebred dogs,but people have bred and bred to get this color so much that blue dogs are everywhere.The bully dogs do have other stuff in there,they're not true APBT.People here tend to get upset if anyone says anything about bullies but breeding gamebred dogs to bullies is a bad idea,that's what the OP was posting about.


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## Aidan

Fully understand everything about bullies, my question was geared towards the APBT being blue which u did answer,and did in a respectful way.

And I as I'm sure almost everyone else will agree breeding your APBT into bully lines isn't the best way to go about things.


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## Firehazard

What I was saying is the first blue popped up Carver.. Carver/watchdog if I remeber right, and it was like Parkers CH Bouncer; Monster blue dog just showed up in similar retrospect, Bouncer all game except for the parent unknown and he was 120lb monster. Well, Swinford was breeding bandogs to compete with pit dogs, he created a blue bandog from neopolitans he was associated with carver and used a good deal of his stock as crossouts, well if these other guys are gonna put a bandog in the pit line why would these other guys for they have the same purpose in mind.... Creating a Bigger Badder "Pit".... Simply have to take big dogs to big dogs, no reason to ever crossout and splash the blood like that.. Supposedly they found Eddington dead as well as the dogs on his property; speculation is for contaminating the bloodline.. But Just because I've heard countless old men speak on it, mum was always the word and I could never ask just listen when it came up.... ANYWAY IMO the first blue to show up was a bandogg/pit dog w/rung papers.. thats not the opinion of any organization only IMO from what I have learned.


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## Carley

you may be running in to a misstake im not sure if you willl but you might!


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## Carley

what if the pups dont turn out what you want them to be what would you do with them?

ask some one here that has bred a dog and has done a AMAZING job with the doggies like OFK his puppies turn out reallly nice!!


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## performanceknls

There are many reasons you should start researching blood lines and breeding before you actually do it. I am not going to give the same do not breed your dog speech because everyone has already done that. What you should be looking at is knowing your dogs ped and the dogs that make up the ped. Then you need to determine what makes your dog breed worthy? Just the fact that your dog is registered or do you show your dog or do any sports with them? Then you need to look at the health factor, have you don any health testing like hips, heart and thyroid? All of these things need to be considered before breeding. Just because your dog can make babies doesn't mean they should.


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## performanceknls

1dog said:


> what if the pups dont turn out what you want them to be what would you do with them?
> 
> ask some one here that has bred a dog and has done a AMAZING job with the doggies like OFK his puppies turn out reallly nice!!


Good point as a breeder you should always be ready to take back any dogs if they do not work out with there owners. I just got Typhoon back and I have gotten other dogs back that I have produced over the years. Just more things you need to think about.


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## Firehazard

performanceknls said:


> Good point as a breeder you should always be ready to take back any dogs if they do not work out with there owners. I just got Typhoon back and I have gotten other dogs back that I have produced over the years. Just more things you need to think about.


Kudos to both of ya'll... Exactly be prepared to keep each and every dog, as a breeder one must assume all accountability of those dogs and as you mentioned above ^ I too, have gotten' dog back from people in which I am in that situation now, but sometimes thats a blessing as these dogs turn out to be different than they were as a pup. But, yeah, yeah.... :goodpost: both o' ya...


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## 10616

...........................


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## roe1880

What I was saying is the first blue popped up Carver.. Carver/watchdog if I remeber right, and it was like Parkers CH Bouncer; Monster blue dog just showed up in similar retrospect, Bouncer all game except for the parent unknown and he was 120lb monster. Well, Swinford was breeding bandogs to compete with pit dogs, he created a blue bandog from neopolitans he was associated with carver and used a good deal of his stock as crossouts, well if these other guys are gonna put a bandog in the pit line why would these other guys for they have the same purpose in mind.... Creating a Bigger Badder "Pit".... Simply have to take big dogs to big dogs, no reason to ever crossout and splash the blood like that.. Supposedly they found Eddington dead as well as the dogs on his property; speculation is for contaminating the bloodline.. But Just because I've heard countless old men speak on it, mum was always the word and I could never ask just listen when it came up.... ANYWAY IMO the first blue to show up was a bandogg/pit dog w/rung papers.. thats not the opinion of any organization only IMO from what I have learned.[/



pesifik_oshen said:


> ???????:roll::roll::roll:


I agree with Pesific....lol

Dude you not only lost a few of us here with this rammbling but it's very clear your lost yourself... WTF are you talking about???????:hammer::hammer:

Anyway folks lets get back to the new young person with the serious questions...

I have a few questions for you... 
1. How old are you?
2. How long have you had APBT's?
3. How old is your female?
4. Does she have a pedigree?
5. Do you know how to read a pedigree?
These are just a few that will elad to allot more questions not from me but from many folks here... Were here to help & I am very happy than you acted as an adult & had the courage to ask a question... most people would never ask... Please continue to ask questions... & do your research... 
Anyone else here have any other questions to ask this fine young person please post them up...


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## Sampsons Dad

Let me put it like this.
I bred 2 dogs once that I should not have.
The dogs were both great to look at but the pedigree
was questionable. Not because of anything I did, but because 
the papers said "X" but the dog possessed traits that did not
agree with the pedigree. Long story short....the litter was
not what I had hoped for. I ended up giving the pups to local farmers.
I don't sell dogs for a living and I dont breed dogs just to d it.
My breedings are steps to improving/creating a better show and hunting dog
not just pets. If you breed for excellent dogs you will get 2-3 good ones.
If you breed just to create "pet quality" dogs you will end up with "not very good" dogs and a couple mediocre dogs. Plus you must also be sure that Both dogs have healthy (physically and mentally) dogs in the pedigree or you may end up with a terrible mating.


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## Sampsons Dad

roe1880 said:


> What I was saying is the first blue popped up Carver.. Carver/watchdog if I remeber right, and it was like Parkers CH Bouncer; Monster blue dog just showed up in similar retrospect, Bouncer all game except for the parent unknown and he was 120lb monster. Well, Swinford was breeding bandogs to compete with pit dogs, he created a blue bandog from neopolitans he was associated with carver and used a good deal of his stock as crossouts, well if these other guys are gonna put a bandog in the pit line why would these other guys for they have the same purpose in mind.... Creating a Bigger Badder "Pit".... Simply have to take big dogs to big dogs, no reason to ever crossout and splash the blood like that.. Supposedly they found Eddington dead as well as the dogs on his property; speculation is for contaminating the bloodline.. But Just because I've heard countless old men speak on it, mum was always the word and I could never ask just listen when it came up.... ANYWAY IMO the first blue to show up was a bandogg/pit dog w/rung papers.. thats not the opinion of any organization only IMO from what I have learned.[/
> 
> I agree with Pesific....lol
> 
> Dude you not only lost a few of us here with this rammbling but it's very clear your lost yourself... WTF are you talking about???????:hammer::hammer:
> 
> Anyway folks lets get back to the new young person with the serious questions...
> 
> I have a few questions for you...
> 1. How old are you?
> 2. How long have you had APBT's?
> 3. How old is your female?
> 4. Does she have a pedigree?
> 5. Do you know how to read a pedigree?
> These are just a few that will elad to allot more questions not from me but from many folks here... Were here to help & I am very happy than you acted as an adult & had the courage to ask a question... most people would never ask... Please continue to ask questions... & do your research...
> Anyone else here have any other questions to ask this fine young person please post them up...


You should read a little more carefully. This guy knows his stuff. Blue dogs dont just happen. Blue giants come from Neo or Cane Corso blood.


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## Firehazard

:clap:


Sampsons Dad said:


> Let me put it like this.
> I bred 2 dogs once that I should not have.
> The dogs were both great to look at but the pedigree
> was questionable. Not because of anything I did, but because
> the papers said "X" but the dog possessed traits that did not
> agree with the pedigree. Long story short....the litter was
> not what I had hoped for. I ended up giving the pups to local farmers.
> I don't sell dogs for a living and I dont breed dogs just to d it.
> My breedings are steps to improving/creating a better show and hunting dog
> not just pets. If you breed for excellent dogs you will get 2-3 good ones.
> If you breed just to create "pet quality" dogs you will end up with "not very good" dogs and a couple mediocre dogs. Plus you must also be sure that Both dogs have healthy (physically and mentally) dogs in the pedigree or you may end up with a terrible mating.


:clap::clap::goodpost: experience is education combined with understanding and we have knowledge:clap::clap: Whats funny to me is that old dog men responcible for the APBT as we know; already went to through all the follies show/pet quality APBT breeders are repeating. The APBT is a working dog should be game bred; the companionship is a +. Louis Colby one said that " A "pit" bulldog could do any task any dog was bred to do better, then whip em' when he's done"... I agree; if it can't muster up to this "stereotype" in my mind its not a bulldog/APBT.


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## cEElint

wheres the pics of said dog?


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## Firehazard

_I posted the carver blue reply_ *to the question posted earlier "whats wrong w/ a blue anyway?"* NOTHING but Simply put, blue dogs show'd up in the APBT line as suddenly as WHOPPER line did... With no certain source of the strain, it was Carver/MasonCH Hog w/a little watchdog, blue never showed up before then. IMO that means a paper rung dog; But that is by tracing ped's, listening and learning from the old timers, and knowing my library of APBT/Bulldog history: Dogs of Velvet and Steel, Stratton Library, Seminic, Dieter, etc... Blue dogs in the sense we know have "silver" hair. Game dog pups that come out with "blue" are actually black and white hairs mixed together. How her question is related "whats wrong with a blue anyway" Is if its a true BLUE dog w/Jeep/Redboy paperwork (WE NEED A PIC, and some foundation names from PEDIGREE) OBVIOUSLY somthing is OFF. BUT if he has a buckskin fawn with white and black hairs peppered throughout it will also have a "blue" hue.. But Never mind me, I am a genotype freak; I love genetics, math,psycology,behavior and have 20yrs experience in canine genetics and behavior. Whats FUNNY is people aren't so different.. 
"I know the pieces fit, I watched them fall away."


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## roe1880

Sampson please tell us which guy your talking about...
firehazard blue dogs have been around a VERY long time... way before the whopper stuff...


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## roe1880

*Please read.... this is not new on this or any other forum*....
Part I
The History of Blue Dogs in APBT's and AmStaff's. By Jack Turner
In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note's that in the late 1930's one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936. The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Stafforshire Terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren't penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can't stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?

Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in today's blue dogs.

These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch.

The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan.

In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s."

Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.

If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well. 
Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".

Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed.

In Richard Pascoe's book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability.

The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few.

The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas.

Clifford Ormsby: "...I started with this great breed when you could buy a Pit Bull pup for $5.00. Many times this pup had flat feet, narrow chest, no brisket, bowed legs, fiddle front, cow-hocks, was undershot and had an unreliable temperament. You could shop around and find some desirable ones but it was a problem to find good dominant breeders of quality...."

Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods was a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline, that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890's. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift. Earl became well known dogman all over the country in 1920's with his 16 times winner Black Jack dog and 9 times winner Black Jack Jr. There were many breeders in that time who decide to use Tudor's stuff in their breedings. Corrington was one of these breeders of that time. Ok, back to Ormsby's Madge... Her dam was Bennett's Queen, a cross of Hogan's & Pitts' lines. Hogan line was built on Henry blood. Some of Charles Smith's breedings are behind Hogan's too. Pitts' line was mostly old Colby's bloods with some Henry.

Clifford Ormsby was born in Hornell, NY on August 24, 1905. Alberta also was born in Hornell 3 years later, on June 29, 1908. They were good friends in fact they grew up together a couple of streets apart. Young Cliff had about every animal there was to have. His first dogs were not purebred, and Cliff wanted to have a purebred dog that had spirit. Shortly after they were married Clifford & Alberta decided to take a pure pitbull. In 1930 Cliff went to Leonard,Texas, he took the dog, that he wanted. This was a female from W.F.Bennett's breeding, out of the famous pitbull dog Bennett Mack & Bennett Queen. The name of this female pup is well known to many Am Staff breeders, ORMSBY'S MADGE. It was the start, a Great start!

In 1938 Clifford built a kennel. It was the very modern kennel for that time. There was a water heating system in the kennel floor. He put hot water system himself. When Clifford spoke about his kennel, he said: "Dr. Byer ( Ormsby's veterinarian) come down and asked, "Who built this kennel, who made this kennel for you?" I said, "I did!" He said that," this is a good layout for a small kennel." The heating in the floor, that's the most economical heating too. You see, you've got to put it in right. This is six to eight inches on center, I think three quarter inch wide. I know there's about seventy elbows in it. It has two units, there was no sense in that becouse I never divided it. I always used the whole thing. I have a pressure pump. I can put it on automatically...... "


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## roe1880

*PartII*
In the beginning of Cliff & bert's Staffordshire Terrier breeding, Cliff wasn't interested in "showing" of their dogs. Alberta changed his mind though. She said, " If we're going to have dogs, I'm going to show". The first dogs they shipped to Willfred Brandon. Alberta was very interested in handling their dogs herself. And the first super champion of the X-Pert family, shown by Alberta in many dog shows was the legendary Ch. X-Pert Brindle Biff. He was the favorite dog of Clifford, Alberta & their daughter, Dorothy. When Peggy Doster asked Alberta, "What is the name of the best dog or bitch you ever bred?" Alberta said: "Biff. He was my first dog. I suppose I'm partial. You know, first show dog. I took him to shows all over the country. I showed him all over. I took him all over the place & he won all over the country. I'd go in the ring and people would say:"There goes that woman, again, with that dog"".

Alberta was licensed to judge Stafs & Boxers. She began to judging in '40'. In 1995 Peggy Doster asked Alberta: "Why did you decide to begin judging?". Alberta said this: " It got me out to California and it got me away from cleaning up kennels at home. It wasn't long ago that they wanted to know if I would come out there and judge the dogs. They had read on their catalog that I had been out there in 1979. Wouldn't I look cute....trying to judge dogs. .....Boxers and Stafs and any breed I can quality for, but I don't want to. You know, too much for me, I don't want to get out there and get sick or something, you know."

Alberta: " I was out in Califonia, judging, and I had Am Staff in the ring that was all chewed up in his head. I said, "This dog was in fight. That was in 49', I think. And he said: "Yes, he had a fight yesterday, they fought him." And I said "He did? He's all chewed up." I said, "Will he shakes hands with me?" He said, "Yeah, but he shakes with his hind leg." He stuck his hind leg up to me and shook hands."


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## roe1880

*Part III by other Author*
No one seems to have full knowledge as to how the Blue Pauls were bred or from where they originally came. There was a story that John Paul Jones, the American sailor, brought them from abroad and landed some when he visited his native town of Kirkcudbright about 1770. The Gypsies around the Kin Tilloch district kept Blue Pauls, which they fought for their own amusement. They were game to the death and could suffer much punishment. They were expert and tricky in their fighting tactics, which made them great favorites with those who indulged in this sport. They maintained that the breed originally came from the Galloway coast, which lends support to the Paul Jones legend. The first dogs to arrive in the United States with the English immigrants in the mid-19th century were the Blue Paul Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier AKA American Pitbull Terrier.

With his excellent fighting skills, the Blue Paul was introduced as part of Staffordshire Bull Terrier breeding in the early 19th century and the blue colouring has appeared in Staffords ever since, in particular, the Blue Staffordshire Bull Terrier. It has also appeared in Pitbulls and a bluetick coloration also appears due to inbreeding.

As we all know the American Staffordshire Terrier is the same as the American Pitbull Terrier, they have different names 'cause they were seperated by the AKC. If you research either pure breed Am-Staff or APBT you will see that they all go back to old game dogs from England, Ireland & Scotland.

Search the history and you will hear about a Blue Lightner dog named Runyon's Colorado Imp II in 1936.


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## beccaboo

*wow you dog guys are crazy!!!*

ya'll really know your stuff!!! i dunno bout all the lines but i do know this. i got my girl at almost a year old from somebody in ID (when i was living in MT) and loved her like my baby. my man and i had toyed with the idea of breeding her and hadn't decided for sure or not. after a while i realized she had become quite the daddy's girl- followin mike around everywhere... would love me when i was with her alone but i was invisible when he got home so i decided i wanted my own (i tend to be a little spoiled and God knows i usually get something if i put my mind to it). so anyhow i searched everywhere for a red pup that looked like my girl but i was dying for it to have a white stripe down its face. i looked everywhere for him. shelters. craigslist. more than anything i wanted a boy that really needed help, and preferebly was already neutered and current on everything. one i didn't need to start from square one with. well i found the pup i wanted. almost a year old needin a home or he was being sent to the shelter. maybe before i start that i need to add my female had started her heat a bit before and i had decided i didn't want to breed her and would have her fixed as soon as everything settled and wasn't swollen anymore. well i brought him home. not neutered. no shots. not potty trained crate trained nothing was what i was told. he was cute and had the stripe i wanted. anyhow- when i went to work the 2nd night i had him he broke out of the kennel i had him locked in and he got to my female. now mind you i had already scheduled his neuter apt. and lacey's was to be a month later. that one got fudged up a little. worked with the boy a bit and got him neutered and crate trained and tried potty training but didn't make much headway. a friend of mine that works with dogs has him now and is still working with him and he has improved greatly. went thru with the litter because i was concerned about the spay of a pregnant Lacey possibly hurting her. had 7 gorgeous healthy pups and placed them the best i could. worst part is although i gave my info out to everyone that took a pup home i have no guarantee where they will be in 6 months or a year or 5 yrs. most of the people said they were gonna have the pups fixed when they were old enough but i really don't know. beyond that- with neither pups papered and me not knowing what i was doing i coulda had some really messed up pups. one did have a imbelical hernia which did correct itself but will be completely fixed upon her spay at 6 months  really bottom line- leave it to the pros. i learned a lot but had no business puttin more pits out there. people that have papered pups and kennels to house em and have room to keep lots of little pups safe and clean and outta harms way and can place em into good safe homes with a refund upon return commitment with the buyers do. people that can tell you that the lines in your dog shouldn't produce the color it came out with  you guys rock my world.

oh- p.s.- in the end i got my red nose with the white stripe. a lot more work than what i was lookin for, or than an already neutered and utd potty trained dog but oh well. he sure is cute


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## Firehazard

roe1880 said:


> Sampson please tell us which guy your talking about...
> firehazard blue dogs have been around a VERY long time... way before the whopper stuff...


That was a comparison.... of how they both came about.
Ahh, but they appear out of now where as purebred APBT/AMStaff/ or as I call em' bulldogs... As I said .... The dog men of the original game dogs already came up with everything we have today! They also done away with genes and bloodlines as they were more of a hinder to the bloodline and had MAN BITTING tendencys.


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## Firehazard

roe1880 said:


> *Please read.... this is not new on this or any other forum*....
> Part I
> The History of Blue Dogs in APBT's and AmStaff's. By Jack Turner
> In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, . When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...:goodpost::goodpost:
> *I was told that Imp was a game blue in the show ring a slate blue(a black dog with white hair peppered) not a blue(silver hair)*
> Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed. :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
> 
> In Richard Pascoe's book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability.
> 
> The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few.
> 
> The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas.
> 
> Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods was a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline, that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890's. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift.QUOTE]
> 
> I am OKIE born and raised.. .All my stock and knowledge comes from dog men of Oklahoma.... I have heavy lightner and Tudors as crossouts in my Jocko stock, I learned from the OLD MEN YOU SPEAK OF!!! That there is a difference between the fighting blue bulldog also called A GAME BLUE, and a BLUE dog.. I described the difference in the genetic traits. I too,have these books, and know this story.... BUT Just like Tudors' fighting Bull Terrier, and Eddingtons Whopper, These dogs just show up in pedigree as greats.... NOT ALL THE old dog men used the blue dogs as they had a tendecy to be be manbiters A VARIED OPINOIN AT THAT TIME that continues in circles today, they were mastiff/pit dog crosses BANDOGs to start with... LIKE WHOPPER DOGS ARE BANDOGS,, this is JUST THE OPINOIN OF Old dog men in Oklahoma who LIKE THEIR DOGS UNDER 45lbs and red nosed. While what you are typing is a very good summary of a book that most people do not have. I am only stating OPINION that has been formulated by experience and instructions. If your as educated in these dogs as you seem to be, then you too will know that are two different "blue" strains... OF course because people terms and language are "laymen" those lines convereged, but I have a tri colored black tan white 35lb heavy heavy lightner/tudor dog that gives of a blue hue but he has white hair mixed in with the black, NOT SILVER COLORED HAIR.
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> sire to this MUCH SPECULATED BLUE BRINDLE>> But she is not her FAWN BRINDLE HAS BLACK HAIR in it giving it a blue hue.
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> 
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> 
> SAME DOG 2 years later
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> 
> Thank you!!! I did learn another strain of AmStaff that dervied from yet again pure "pit" stock.. I was not aware that Tacoma originated with Corvino,IRONIC; CONSIDERING Lar San Black nosed dogs are VERY STAFFY.. hmm like everything in the dogworld 60% truth and 40% politics; good stuff... For the most part I agree w/ you, I have just been raised and taught that there are fundamental differences between what is and what is written down.


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## roe1880

I agree with you Firehazard... The posting wasnt really for you as I also see you know what your talking about.. I was just posting it so the young person who started the post could get a little more education... Thank you for adding your information as well... None of us know it all about these great dogs & i have been with & around them for 15+ years & personally consider myself a total newb....

He/She has since come back here... I hope he/she didnt get upset & thought we were just bashing him/her... PLEASE come back... You wanted education & were here giving it away...lol...


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## Firehazard

roe1880 said:


> I agree with you Firehazard... The posting wasnt really for you as I also see you know what your talking about.. I was just posting it so the young person who started the post could get a little more education... Thank you for adding your information as well... None of us know it all about these great dogs & i have been with & around them for 15+ years & personally consider myself a total newb....
> 
> He/She has since come back here... I hope he/she didnt get upset & thought we were just bashing him/her... PLEASE come back... You wanted education & were here giving it away...lol...


:goodpost::goodpost: EXACTLY ~ me too, Ima total newb, learning everyday. Thanks again.:clap:


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## trixter

jdean36 said:


> I have a 2x Jeep, red boy, and Carver fawn blue female and I need some suggestions on what blood line to breed here with. I want some blue but I also want to keep them game short, stocky, and blocked heads. My buddy has a gotti/york blue brendle what should I do


hey bro, your pitbull is not authentic jeep, or redboy or carver, blue pits are more of show type of pitbull and not performance type. second thing you might have a scattered breed of pitbull. if i were you im not going to breed her at all. unless you only wanted to have a puppy. I hope you really have a pedigree of your dog, a real one which is not only written on papers, anyway you can see the performance of your dog in the pit, if you really know how to recognize the bloodlines you will know how they will perform on the pit...


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## Indigo Bully Connection

trixter said:


> hey bro, your pitbull is not authentic jeep, or redboy or carver, blue pits are more of show type of pitbull and not performance type. second thing you might have a scattered breed of pitbull. if i were you im not going to breed her at all. unless you only wanted to have a puppy. I hope you really have a pedigree of your dog, a real one which is not only written on papers, anyway you can see the performance of your dog in the pit, if you really know how to recognize the bloodlines you will know how they will perform on the pit...


First of all, we don't condone dog fighting here, I'm sure it's a miscommunication on our end. Dog fighting is discussed here in a historical manor, or we have even had discussions about dogs from other countries where this sport isn't illegal.

Second... IF you do have a true game bred dog 9 times out of 10 these days they are only tracked by hand written pedigrees. These pedigrees are as honest as the ones recorded with the ADBA and UKC... IF you do your research and can trust who you're getting your dog from.


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## trixter

*pedigree*



Indigo Bully Connection said:


> First of all, we don't condone dog fighting here, I'm sure it's a miscommunication on our end. Dog fighting is discussed here in a historical manor, or we have even had discussions about dogs from other countries where this sport isn't illegal.
> 
> Second... IF you do have a true game bred dog 9 times out of 10 these days they are only tracked by hand written pedigrees. These pedigrees are as honest as the ones recorded with the ADBA and UKC... IF you do your research and can trust who you're getting your dog from.


Yes precisely you are very right. Know where you get your dogs, reputable breeders keep pedigrees that are hand written, though not registered with ADBA and UKC due to the nature and the sensitivity of some issues regarding pitbull dog fighting.

As the pitbulls that i have record of pedigrees and are hand written / encoded and had not been duly registered to any kennel organization because of the nature of some issues. the only registered dogs that i have are my Rottweilers.


http://www.freewebs.com/redhill_kennels


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## Chinadog

In other words, your dog is NOT registered. APBR is crap, and they register anything. If you want to breed make sure you have legit papers.


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