# Garners Pitbull??



## little boo

Hello! im new here and also to the world of pitbulls, i just got a 5 week old Garners Pitbull...she is such a sweetie and needs to grow a bit more before training starts. But i would like to ask if anyone knows any history about Garners Pits or can tell me any interesting facts u think i should know. Thanks


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## PrairieMoonPits

Welcome to the site  Sorry don't have any info on the line for you but I'm sure someone around here does


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## little boo

thank you


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## aus_staffy

Tom Garner's website. American Pit Bull Terrier - Tom Garner Kennels


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## pitbullmamanatl

Welcome to GP!:welcome::welcome:
You have come to the right place for educating yourself about pit bulls. This site is full of great people and a plethora of knowledge. Tom Garner owned the infamous Chinaman who produced Frisco; Garner claims Frisco is the greatest producing stud dog in the world. You can check out Tom Garner's website and read some history on his dogs and yard. This is another site with some pit bull history about various dog men and their dogs. The article I linked you to is about Garner's Chinaman. Good luck with your puppy and I hope to see pictures soon!!


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## Sadie

Tom Garner is a legendary Dogman who owned and bred several great box dogs such as Ch Chinaman 4xw Rom, Dynomite 3xw Rom, Gr Ch Spike 5xw , and Garner's Frisco ROM being one of the most controversial bulldogs and producer's. I am personally not a fan of Tom Garner as a breeder but am a fan of his dogs.

You said your pup is only 5 weeks old? Did you get him from a breeder? And is your pup ADBA or UKC registered ? Without seeing a pedigree it's impossible to know what bloodlines your pup stems from. I am assuming the breeder or person whom you got the pup from told you that your pup is a garner pup?


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## little boo

yes, she is UKC reg...i did not send away for it yet but i will soon, yes i did get her from a breeder and they did claim she is a garner pup. I guess we will have to wait and see her pedigree when it comes in the mail....thank you soo much for your input everyone boo will be very happy here


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## william williamson

the thing that makes A breeder successful,and seperates them from BYB is their primary attention to blood.
his dogs are above the "count" for breeding lineage.
and when he breeds out,or adds a dog to his yard.they will be pedigreed to ring generals.
from recollection,theirs dogs that are only the best of the best.when you back up from the pennington dogs,and Lloyds, or the el mexicana.
to me his dogs are the essence of pit bulls.theirs others bringing them along,yet few are still the original hands on bring it forward breeders.

you got A fine dog.I'm curious,who's on the top and bottom?
which sire and dam?


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## Sadie

little boo said:


> yes, she is UKC reg...i did not send away for it yet but i will soon, yes i did get her from a breeder and they did claim she is a garner pup. I guess we will have to wait and see her pedigree when it comes in the mail....thank you soo much for your input everyone boo will be very happy here


Ok when you get her pedigree you can post it up here and we can tell you for sure how your pup is bred. Pedigree's can be tricky to read and understand if you don't have exp looking over them and knowing the dogs in the pedigree and what's behind them it would be confusing for you. Welcome to the forum look forward to watching your pup grow


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## william williamson

little boo said:


> yes, she is UKC reg...i did not send away for it yet but i will soon, yes i did get her from a breeder and they did claim she is a garner pup. I guess we will have to wait and see her pedigree when it comes in the mail....thank you soo much for your input everyone boo will be very happy here


they should have told you the sire and dam before you left the yard.
should anything happen in the paper process you could possibly DNA and get some sort of result.
if it's going to be A pet,don't sweat it.enjoy your dog.
what happens for alot is that we get this breed,we see what others are doing,we get into the mix,come off with this great lookin or pullin dog and then have no dedicated paper history to our pup.
i sure would hope your ok with the folks you got it from.
did they have a kennel name or anything like that?did they throw around any other names for their dogs?


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## Sadie

William if they let the pup go home at just 5 weeks old and told them it was a garner pit without any pedigree and the dog is only UKC registered that screams BYB peddling. But either way you and your pup have come to the right place to learn and educate yourself about the breed.


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## william williamson

Sadie said:


> William if they let the pup go home at just 5 weeks old and told them it was a garner pit without any pedigree and the dog is only UKC registered that screams BYB peddling. But either way you and your pup have come to the right place to learn and educate yourself about the breed.


the OP said she got a garners dog.I know he wouldn't release one early,yet in hopes,that they may have A TG dog.thats all.
forever the optimist when it comes to someones first experience.especially when they seem to be truly interested in the breed/learning.
I sensed no arbitrary feelings,just genuine pleasure with their dog.
that said,they are for our pleasures and at times woes.we gotta make the best if it.


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## Sadie

william williamson said:


> the OP said she got a garners dog.I know he wouldn't release one early,yet in hopes,that they may have A TG dog.thats all.
> forever the optimist when it comes to someones first experience.especially when they seem to be truly interested in the breed/learning.
> I sensed no arbitrary feelings,just genuine pleasure with their dog.
> that said,they are for our pleasures and at times woes.we gotta make the best if it.


I thought you might have missed it  They didn't get the pup from Tom Garner but from someone else and are only going off what they were told from the breeder. I agree in that if it's just a pet which I am sensing it is than it won't matter about paper's and bloodline regardless.


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## william williamson

Sadie said:


> I thought you might have missed it  They didn't get the pup from Tom Garner but from someone else and are only going off what they were told from the breeder. I agree in that if it's just a pet which I am sensing it is than it won't matter about paper's and bloodline regardless.


now ain't that dadgum funny.
I read pitbullmamas post,started pecking,and you and boo got one each in before I started.and I didn't scroll up,then did notice it later.
bein A pecker sucks,hehehe.
now give me a good framin hammer and some 16's and I'm good to go.
if'n I could type like I hand drove nails,I'd be doin 500 words A minute and my book would be done.


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## American_Pit13

You guys are gonna confuse the hell outta the girl before she get up a ped! LMAO. 

Like Sadie has said when you get up your ped we can tell you what bloodline(s) the dog is.


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## Sadie

[email protected] to the original poster of this thread don't mind us we can get a little crazy and wires get crossed every now and then but we all want to help you!  Sorry if we confused you in anyway LOL


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## william williamson

american_pit13 said:


> You guys are gonna confuse the hell outta the girl before she get up a ped! LMAO.
> 
> Like Sadie has said when you get up your ped we can tell you what bloodline(s) the dog is.


:rofl:I can't help it,aus staffy put up his site,then someone else,and i looked at it.it was like A trip down memory lane.when I see A dogs name,often some old dogs chain rattles,and it takes me back to when I'd get to look over old papers,and listen to grand tales from some of the best.
then you'd go to an old 'baccer barn,and walk in and all around the "room" were these guys.like one night,they looked at my friend Fletcher,and asked him if'n he brought that yellow cuss or wouldn't he come from his barrel.
thats all,back then and now,sometimes it's all I can do to not p my pants.
and,I looked at that dog Bobby Peru,and I knew without readin his ped,knowin he was on Toms yard what it would consist of.


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## little boo

IM A BOY and boo is my girl  !!! and i diddent read all these posts yet i g2g pick up some food for Boo so ill be back ina while (im feeding her health extension if u were interested)


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## little boo

william williamson said:


> the thing that makes A breeder successful,and seperates them from BYB is their primary attention to blood.
> his dogs are above the "count" for breeding lineage.
> and when he breeds out,or adds a dog to his yard.they will be pedigreed to ring generals.
> from recollection,theirs dogs that are only the best of the best.when you back up from the pennington dogs,and Lloyds, or the el mexicana.
> to me his dogs are the essence of pit bulls.theirs others bringing them along,yet few are still the original hands on bring it forward breeders.
> 
> you got A fine dog.I'm curious,who's on the top and bottom?
> which sire and dam?


i know who the parents are dads name is blue and moms name is co co....thier pics r in my albums if u would like to go look, the blood line names there where thrown at me was garner, blue diamond and greyline


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## little boo

william williamson said:


> they should have told you the sire and dam before you left the yard.
> should anything happen in the paper process you could possibly DNA and get some sort of result.
> if it's going to be A pet,don't sweat it.enjoy your dog.
> what happens for alot is that we get this breed,we see what others are doing,we get into the mix,come off with this great lookin or pullin dog and then have no dedicated paper history to our pup.
> i sure would hope your ok with the folks you got it from.
> did they have a kennel name or anything like that?did they throw around any other names for their dogs?


no kennel name was given too me....when i get the ped i will deff post it up and u guys can tell me what u think  u guys r great!!


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## Mach0

little boo said:


> i know who the parents are dads name is blue and moms name is co co....thier pics r in my albums if u would like to go look, the blood line names there where thrown at me was garner, blue diamond and greyline


If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure greyline is a bully line and blue diamond seems to be also. Maybe a mix between the two?


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## MISSAPBT

Puppy Miller


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## little boo

MISSAPBT said:


> Puppy Miller


huh????????


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## MISSAPBT

little boo said:


> huh????????


TGarner pumps out puppies like theres no tomorrow.


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## william williamson

little boo said:


> huh????????


I didn't feel like debating it.since you ask,and knowing just A 'lil bit 'bout mr. Tom,and his dogs for as long as I've had pits,he's still got the same blood pretty much,coursing through their viens.
I'd bet you my head,cut it off and hand it to you before my body hit the ground.
take 5 dogs standing on his yard,and 5 from the breeder who just breeds dogs because,his dogs would freight train through them.
theirs A better way of saying it.his dogs would be A terminal illness for other dogs.
the idea that he's A puppy miller,thats a personal opinion.the thing for me is I saw A puppy mill.actual true to the term mill.
3-8 yr old females in crates stacked in a hot garage for their entire life,never getting A bath,their nails clipped eyes cleared or cleaned,all with respiratory illness because of the air quality of their environment.
now,compare what he has and does to that.
I've seen his dogs,for years,know of him have been in the same barn years ago.he knows his dogs,he knows what he's doing.
I wouldn't call him A miller.based on what I personally know.


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## Mach0

william williamson said:


> I didn't feel like debating it.since you ask,and knowing just A 'lil bit 'bout mr. Tom,and his dogs for as long as I've had pits,he's still got the same blood pretty much,coursing through their viens.
> I'd bet you my head,cut it off and hand it to you before my body hit the ground.
> take 5 dogs standing on his yard,and 5 from the breeder who just breeds dogs because,his dogs would freight train through them.
> theirs A better way of saying it.his dogs would be A terminal illness for other dogs.
> the idea that he's A puppy miller,thats a personal opinion.the thing for me is I saw A puppy mill.actual true to the term mill.
> 3-8 yr old females in crates stacked in a hot garage for their entire life,never getting A bath,their nails clipped eyes cleared or cleaned,all with respiratory illness because of the air quality of their environment.
> now,compare what he has and does to that.
> I've seen his dogs,for years,know of him have been in the same barn years ago.he knows his dogs,he knows what he's doing.
> I wouldn't call him A miller.based on what I personally know.


X22222
To each his own but I think he's a pretty well respected breeder. Sure he has produced a good amount of dogs but i would say the conditions Have to be better than a mill.


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## MISSAPBT

I really dont want to be the bashing type but selling curs and cold dogs for 900-1500 bucks from gambred lines is a little heafty dont you think, i find that newbies will get sucked in to have some pretty papers and have a nice pet.
He breeds like 20+ litters a year



> Do the math= 19 x 6 pups per litter... on an average between $900.00-$1500.00 prices is $1200.00 per pup.
> 
> 114 pups x $1200.00 = Gross $136,800.00 (Probably twice a year)=
> 
> $273,600.00
> 
> Muliple Choice:
> 
> 1) BREEDER
> 
> 2) SALESMAN
> 
> 3) PEDDLER


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## MY MIKADO

Hey Vinny post up the ped you get it. It will be interesting to see what you actually got. . I find reading peds a headache I love the breed but for the last 30yrs that I have been into dogs all were rescues so no need for pedigrees.


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## william williamson

MISSAPBT said:


> I really dont want to be the bashing type but selling curs and cold dogs for 900-1500 bucks from gambred lines is a little heafty dont you think, i find that newbies will get sucked in to have some pretty papers and have a nice pet.
> He breeds like 20+ litters a year


I've seen several dogs 3,4 and 5 times off, go.
I bet he's "got" dogs that have gone.thats all i'm sayin about that.


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## Hagen

In Europe I've seen some good dogs from his yard, and their ancestors. Also some good crosses.
Of course he is a peddler, but he is a good breeder, too.
For a newbie a good address to buy a solid bred dog, because he sells to everybody who gives him money.


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## Oldskool Brent

little boo said:


> i know who the parents are dads name is blue and moms name is co co....thier pics r in my albums if u would like to go look, the blood line names there where thrown at me was garner, blue diamond and greyline


Judging by your album pics, if there is any Garner dogs in your ped, it's a few generations back. I think whoever sold you the puppy should stop breeding dogs as nothing about the sale seems right. Good luck with the dog though.


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## little boo

Oldskool Brent said:


> Judging by your album pics, if there is any Garner dogs in your ped, it's a few generations back. I think whoever sold you the puppy should stop breeding dogs as nothing about the sale seems right. Good luck with the dog though.


i heard and saw everything i needed to know....i can care less what her bloodlines r and ****....i just want to know exactly what kind of dog i have so at least i know what im talking about when im having a convo about my pup


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## little boo

MY MIKADO said:


> Hey Vinny post up the ped you get it. It will be interesting to see what you actually got. . I find reading peds a headache I love the breed but for the last 30yrs that I have been into dogs all were rescues so no need for pedigrees.


i will as soon as i get it


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## EckoMac

Either way... your puppy is wicked cute.


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## Aireal

isn't she i love Boo i can't wait to see how she turns out =D i.e. you better keep us updated with some pics of that baby


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## thomas

william williamson said:


> now ain't that* dadgum* funny.
> I read pitbullmamas post,started pecking,and you and boo got one each in before I started.and I didn't scroll up,then did notice it later.
> bein A *pecker* sucks,hehehe.
> now give me a good framin hammer and some 16's and I'm good to go.
> if'n I could type like I hand drove nails,I'd be doin 500 words A minute and my book would be done.


Great googly moogly! That looks like undercover cussing to me William. I'll have to learn how to do that if I want to continue posting on a childrens forum I guess


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## Kayo45

MISSAPBT said:


> I really dont want to be the bashing type but *selling curs and cold dogs for 900-1500* bucks from gambred lines is a little heafty dont you think, i find that newbies will get sucked in to have some pretty papers and have a nice pet.
> He breeds like 20+ litters a year


You sure about that lol. What known cur or cold dogs have he sold that you know of? Are you familiar with his dogs?


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## MISSAPBT

Kayo45 said:


> You sure about that lol. What known cur or cold dogs have he sold that you know of? Are you familiar with his dogs?


Does he test his puppies? Does he cull? or just sell them all to anyone? no.no.yes

That is a BOMB to pay for a dog for some pretty papers


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## Kayo45

MISSAPBT said:


> Does he test his puppies? Does he cull? or just sell them all to anyone? no.no.yes
> 
> That is a BOMB to pay for a dog for some pretty papers


Does he test his puppies???? Uhhhh, what??? And no he doesn't cull because he does sale all of the pups he produces. But that isnt what Im asking here. What dog do you know of that he knew was a cur or cold dog that he sold to someone and have you ever seen his dogs and are you familiar with the dogs he has on his yard at this moment


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## MISSAPBT

I think we have alrady had this debate on GD *sigh*

I should rephrase myself, replace the word dogs with puppies.
How is it he is getting away with breeding so so many gamebred dogs for that price?!?!
It just baffles the hellout of me
I would understand if the dog had proven itslef and sold for that much


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## Kayo45

He is getting away with it because people pay for it. He has some great dogs on his yard that put out some great dogs in high numbers. Thats all there is to that pretty much, I dont care about his prices or peddling **** as long as you get a good dog.

Arguing about it on the internet aint gonna change anything really. His dogs go out in hunts, win in high percentages in hunts and breeds some very good proven dogs. I mean he has 2 ROM dogs on his yard now. You can say about he is breeding for pretty papers but those who know, know what the deal is with his dogs on hunts


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## william williamson

people buy from quality dogs,regardless of the breeder,and put them through their "paces".
I would own a Tom dog.


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## MISSAPBT

I would also own one, but not for that price


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## Sadie

I like the garner dog's Chinaman and Frisco would have to be my favorites I wouldn't buy a garner dog directly from Tom Garner because of his breeding practices IMO he is peddler several litter's a year to sell puppies for profit is peddling. To each his own.


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## little boo

good thing i only payed 200$ for my doggy


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## Rudy4747

I feel like if you have great dogs as he does and can produce sound dogs ( in both body and attitude) then there is no problem in you having litters. If the dogs are worth the money( they must be if people would go out of their way to find them from different breeders, then ask the price you think they are worth. If people don't think they were worth it then they won't buy it. I like the garner dogs mostly heavy Chinsman. I think s a puppy peddler is someone who breeds without care of the conditions the dogs are kept or the dogs they produce.


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## william williamson

Rudy4747 said:


> I feel like if you have great dogs as he does and can produce sound dogs ( in both body and attitude) then there is no problem in you having litters. If the dogs are worth the money( they must be if people would go out of their way to find them from different breeders, then ask the price you think they are worth. If people don't think they were worth it then they won't buy it. I like the garner dogs mostly heavy Chinsman. I think s a puppy peddler is someone who breeds without care of the conditions the dogs are kept or the dogs they produce.


something else to,that I see thats impressive,many of his dogs have so much of an almost mirrored image of the dogs back down the line.
I look at the today dogs,abd they look like the dogs from 25-30 years ago in their lineage.
it's almost eerie.


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## BTPB

Ok, Tom Garner has openly admitted to not fighting pit bulls but having someone fight them for him! I would never get a dog from him. All it does is tell him that people want his dogs and he will keep breeding and continue to fight pits!


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## dday

First, I want to say that I do not own one of TG's dogs, nor have I ever purchased one from him. But what I believe many people are failing to understand is that he is a business man first, and I believe that upsets some people. He is a man that has acquired some of the best working dogs money can buy, and he is making a good living from it. Does that make him a "peddler"? Yes! But he is a smart peddler. At least he is peddling quality animals, and not some back yard, "no nothing" breeder, breeding scatter bred mutts! And from what I have seen from his web site. It looks like he takes good care of his dogs. Now if he can get $800 to $1500 a pup, then there must be a market. "Now this statement might offend some people", But I think his prices are bargain basement, compared to some over weight, giant "Bullys" out there selling form $1000 to $4000 and more! (But to each his own.) And there is a lot of people out there that don't know where to go to get a quality breed dog, and he fits that need. 
I believe John Colby was also called a peddler in his day. (no Comparison) 
Now if your one of those people that has connections, and you have access to well breed dogs at a much more reasonable price. Then your one of the fortunate ones. And you know as well as I do, that many of the top yards are closed to the general public. So I for one am not going to belittle or criticize those that purchase from him. Enough said.


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## Rudy4747

BTPB said:


> Ok, Tom Garner has openly admitted to not fighting pit bulls but having someone fight them for him! I would never get a dog from him. All it does is tell him that people want his dogs and he will keep breeding and continue to fight pits!


There are many people out there who believe that game breed dogs will fade away unless some are breed for purpose, and for that reason people will continue to buy from tested dogs. So if you this kind of dog you have to hope that the people out there that are producing these dogs have the best interest of the breed in mind. Do i think he does I don't know and any one who does not know should not judge people for wanting a dog from him , the one I have seen are pretty sound in body and mind.


dday said:


> First, I want to say that I do not own one of TG's dogs, nor have I ever purchased one from him. But what I believe many people are failing to understand is that he is a business man first, and I believe that upsets some people. He is a man that has acquired some of the best working dogs money can buy, and he is making a good living from it. Does that make him a "peddler"? Yes! But he is a smart peddler. At least he is peddling quality animals, and not some back yard, "no nothing" breeder, breeding scatter bred mutts! And from what I have seen from his web site. It looks like he takes good care of his dogs. Now if he can get $800 to $1500 a pup, then there must be a market. "Now this statement might offend some people", But I think his prices are bargain basement, compared to some over weight, giant "Bullys" out there selling form $1000 to $4000 and more! (But to each his own.) And there is a lot of people out there that don't know where to go to get a quality breed dog, and he fits that need.
> I believe John Colby was also called a peddler in his day. (no Comparison)
> Now if your one of those people that has connections, and you have access to well breed dogs at a much more reasonable price. Then your one of the fortunate ones. And you know as well as I do, that many of the top yards are closed to the general public. So I for one am not going to belittle or criticize those that purchase from him. Enough said.


So true, and well put. It is hard to find good dogs these day all the people out there who have been in the "dog bizz" for years are so untrusting of new comers believe me.


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## aus_staffy

dday said:


> First, I want to say that I do not own one of TG's dogs, nor have I ever purchased one from him. But what I believe many people are failing to understand is that he is a business man first, and I believe that upsets some people. He is a man that has acquired some of the best working dogs money can buy, and he is making a good living from it. Does that make him a "peddler"? Yes! But he is a smart peddler. At least he is peddling quality animals, and not some back yard, "no nothing" breeder, breeding scatter bred mutts! And from what I have seen from his web site. It looks like he takes good care of his dogs. Now if he can get $800 to $1500 a pup, then there must be a market. "Now this statement might offend some people", But I think his prices are bargain basement, compared to some over weight, giant "Bullys" out there selling form $1000 to $4000 and more! (But to each his own.) And there is a lot of people out there that don't know where to go to get a quality breed dog, and he fits that need.
> I believe John Colby was also called a peddler in his day. (no Comparison)
> Now if your one of those people that has connections, and you have access to well breed dogs at a much more reasonable price. Then your one of the fortunate ones. And you know as well as I do, that many of the top yards are closed to the general public. So I for one am not going to belittle or criticize those that purchase from him. Enough said.


:goodpost: Puts things in perspective.


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## BTPB

Hmmm.. We have have dogst that we breed that come from bloodlines like georgia bell, Watch dog, gotti, and other good lines. With Great Grandsires of Phantom Rolls, grand sires of dillenger and cyrus from iron man pit bulls, extreme bullyz. Compared to those people who sell their puppies that have easty/westy feet, underbite/overbite, shoulders that pop out where there not suppose to be. Those people think that their dogs are worth more because they have those deffects.


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## Rudy4747

The dogs you are talking about are a hole difrent type of dig then the garners type of dog. Garners are true APBT, from game stock. Going way back in the day. In my opinion a much better deal at his asking price.


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## Mach0

Rudy4747 said:


> The dogs you are talking about are a hole difrent type of dig then the garners type of dog. Garners are true APBT, from game stock. Going way back in the day. In my opinion a much better deal at his asking price.


Very true. So True that I was going to drive to ( I think he's in SC) his kennel to get one. Dinomite has a litter on the ground. Only problem is I'n my neighborhood, there are too many dogs and way too many that get loose- and that's all I need- especially in this suburban/rural setting I'm In. And the fact that I have two other dogs- one a bully- it would be a hassle to properly contain it. :-((


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## william williamson

BTPB said:


> Hmmm.. We have have dogst that we breed that come from bloodlines like georgia bell, Watch dog, gotti, and other good lines. With Great Grandsires of Phantom Rolls, grand sires of dillenger and cyrus from iron man pit bulls, extreme bullyz. Compared to those people who sell their puppies that have easty/westy feet, underbite/overbite, shoulders that pop out where there not suppose to be. Those people think that their dogs are worth more because they have those deffects.


I don't see any "great" dogs in that list.
for 2500 beans,it better eat the as$ outta A bull running 60 MPH.


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## Rudy4747

Mach0 said:


> Very true. So True that I was going to drive to ( I think he's in SC) his kennel to get one. Dinomite has a litter on the ground. Only problem is I'n my neighborhood, there are too many dogs and way too many that get loose- and that's all I need- especially in this suburban/rural setting I'm In. And the fact that I have two other dogs- one a bully- it would be a hassle to properly contain it. :-((


Man I feel you I live in the same situation. am in the process of building a kennel in my garage because I plan to own a game breed dog. So I can keep it from the other loose mutts in the hood.


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## Kayo45

BTPB said:


> Hmmm.. We have have dogst that we breed that come from bloodlines like georgia bell, Watch dog, gotti, and other good lines. With Great Grandsires of Phantom Rolls, grand sires of dillenger and cyrus from iron man pit bulls, extreme bullyz. Compared to those people who sell their puppies that have easty/westy feet, underbite/overbite, shoulders that pop out where there not suppose to be. Those people think that their dogs are worth more because they have those deffects.


you have alot to learn


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## Aireal

Kayo45 said:


> you have alot to learn


simple to the point yet not truly disrepectful, well said :clap:


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## BTPB

Well,we all have our own opinions. he has been busted for dogfighting before. I for one wouldn't want a puppy from someone like that!


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## fishinrob

BTPB said:


> Well,we all have our own opinions. he has been busted for dogfighting before. I for one wouldn't want a puppy from someone like that!


Then you wouldn't want a pitbull. That's what created this great breed. Not big size, not coffee table looking dogs, not "bone" or "head piece". They were made from the pit. Admire the true working dog not the posers!!!!


----------



## MISSAPBT

BTPB said:


> Hmmm.. We have have dogst that we breed that come from bloodlines like georgia bell, Watch dog, gotti, and other good lines. With Great Grandsires of Phantom Rolls, grand sires of dillenger and cyrus from iron man pit bulls, extreme bullyz. Compared to those people who sell their puppies that have easty/westy feet, underbite/overbite, shoulders that pop out where there not suppose to be. Those people think that their dogs are worth more because they have those deffects.


Gamebred APBT's and extreme bully are totally diffrent breeds of dogs.
those "easty westy, underbite" dogs are the true American Pitbull Terrier, the serve a purpose in life what do extremem bullys serve?


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## william williamson

MISSAPBT said:


> Gamebred APBT's and extreme bully are totally diffrent breeds of dogs.
> those "easty westy, underbite" dogs are the true American Pitbull Terrier, the serve a purpose in life what do extremem bullys serve?


it was called "breed tight,breed to fight".your exactly right.oh the times we'd look at the dog on the other side of the box.some dogs would come from out west or from the north.back then all you had was their breeding and pit record,then what you could gather on a dog from others.
then you get to the barn or wherever and look at the other dog,and it's got spindly legs,A bottom jaw that could eat corn off the cob through a picket fence,and he looks like A catepillar with splayed legs.
then he gets goin and he drives like burt reynolds bites like phyliss diller,floats like A butterfly and stings like a bee.
all great dogs had the same nick name after destroyin their opponent,
"that SOB"


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## Black Label Romo

I can pretty much guarantee this guy was not referring to the APBT when he says easty westy...underbite...overbite...etc...
IMO He is referring to the fact that several bully breeders are producing dogs with awful structure...ie he refers to the shoulders poppin out...and I guess he thinks hes producing quality bullies...yes his ENTIRE post is off topic and just blah if you ask me...but I am almost positive he is not trying to blast the APBT...just another confused soul lmao...so no need to turn this into a debate on whats better apples or oranges...ya know...


----------



## william williamson

Lone Star said:


> I can pretty much guarantee this guy was not referring to the APBT when he says easty westy...underbite...overbite...etc...
> IMO He is referring to the fact that several bully breeders are producing dogs with awful structure...ie he refers to the shoulders poppin out...and I guess he thinks hes producing quality bullies...yes his ENTIRE post is off topic and just blah if you ask me...but I am almost positive he is not trying to blast the APBT...just another confused soul lmao...so no need to turn this into a debate on whats better apples or oranges...ya know...


wasn't really blastin,just kinda clarifying.
we had some but as$ ugly dogs runnin across the box.the thing though,what Missapbt was gettin at,was they were ring generals or some mighty fine dog.
just don't laugh at the ugliness.
like she said,they served A purpose.they were worth every cent invested in them
they proved up.
and th E/W,we called it splay footed or hocked, or fiddle foot.depending on the point of angulation.splay foot is correctable,yet it was never pursued.


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## MISSAPBT

He doesn't have to look pretty on tha chain when he is beautiful in the box


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## Sadie

[email protected] MISS APBT


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## MISSAPBT

hehe, i love that quote, and your signature reminded me.


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## aus_staffy

Lone Star said:


> I can pretty much guarantee this guy was not referring to the APBT when he says easty westy...underbite...overbite...etc...
> IMO He is referring to the fact that several bully breeders are producing dogs with awful structure...ie he refers to the shoulders poppin out...and I guess he thinks hes producing quality bullies...yes his ENTIRE post is off topic and just blah if you ask me...but I am almost positive he is not trying to blast the APBT...just another confused soul lmao...so no need to turn this into a debate on whats better apples or oranges...ya know...


Yeah, I agree. The guy wasn't talking about APBTs but poorly structured bullies.


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## BTPB

I have structurally correct bullies, I own both the APBT and the American Bullies. We show them both and we know whats correct and whats nots. Easty/ Westy are not acceptable in any registry! Not starting anything, Just stating a fact and my experience!


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## BTPB

I have a simple question for you guys, do you support dog fighting???


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## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> I have a simple question for you guys, do you support dog fighting???


:hammer::hammer::hammer:

Seriously? I left this thread alone for the most part... but this question is just well kind of stupid... Just because there is a SOLID difference between a game bred APBT, a pet APBT and an American Bully and the fact that people are pointing that difference out does not mean they are ok with dog fighting...

I speak for myself here when I say that no I do not support dog fighting in this day in age HOWEVER respecting where my breed came from and understanding it is a different story.

I respect dogmen of yester year but there are very few true dogmen left in today's society therefore I do not respect the punk thugs that try to call themselves dogmen now...


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## MISSAPBT

BTPB said:


> I have a simple question for you guys, do you support dog fighting???


I support the dogmen of the past and what they did for us, I have nothing wrong with what they done and how they went about in the sport. Also I have mad resepct for dogmen of today who are preserving the 'gamedog'.

With all that i do not fight my dogs and nor do i have any involvment with the sport, but i will support and resept todays dogmen.
You may think i am a bad person but i am not going to make out like im someone im not, we all have diffrent veiws.

I speak for myself, i think majority of others on here would say no.


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## BTPB

If you don't support it, then why buy from a person that not only has been busted for dog fighting his dogs, but has someone doing the fighting for him now? I don't understand you MISSAPBT. This is one of the reasons BSL wants to take away our dogs! And you think its ok for people to do it. We're supposed to be helping the breed. Thats the reason I'm doing the Awareness Walk. And one day I will open a rescue for pits that have been used for dog fighting and baiting. Because I think that its wrong, you may not think so because they are keeping the gamebred dogs alive. We're supposed to be helping stop this mess. I'm here to save them, what are you here for?


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## MISSAPBT

Tim e and time again i find myslef in the SAME situation, rather than explain myslef twenty times a month please take the time to read this thread, all my views are there http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/30525-supporting-pit-bull-fighting.html


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## MISSAPBT

BTPB said:


> If you don't support it, then why buy from a person that not only has been busted for dog fighting his dogs, I dont have a TG dog?! I havent brought a dog from him, and if i did whats it to you? but has someone doing the fighting for him now? I don't understand you MISSAPBT. This is one of the reasons BSL wants to take away our dogs! Coz poeple are too caught up on petbulls, they were here to serve a purpose now, there will be no such thing as the APBT if it was not for todays dogmen, what we would have is AMSTAFFS, goodbye APBT's. And please do not refer your dogs and my dogs to OUR brred i own APBTS you own american bullies And you think its ok for people to do it. We're supposed to be helping the breed. Thats the reason I'm doing the Awareness Walk. And one day I will open a rescue for pits that have been used for dog fighting and baiting. baiting HA! I HUHS term, no such thing as a bait dog with true dogmen, wannabies may use them Because I think that its wrong, you may not think so because they are keeping the gamebred dogs alive. to keep the APBT alive, as i said AMSTAFFS! We're supposed to be helping stop this mess. I'm here to save them, what are you here for? Im here to preserve them!


mine in red


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## BTPB

But why support it? I understand that its how these dogs were made what they are today. But people are also afraid of them because of that. we're supposed to be helping the breed. And supporting fighting is not helping yet alone buying puppies from a known dog fighter. Yours and my views on this topic are totally different. I love pit bulls with a passion. And I will do anything to save them! I know I'm just 18, But I know more about this breed then most 18 year olds would. My moms been a trainer for them, breeder, and she shows them, both APBT and American Bullys. Shes taught me a lot about them.


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## BTPB

I have APBT and American Bullies.


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## Sadie

BTPB you can't save a breed from what they were bred to do. There will always be dog men keeping these dogs honest and true to their purpose. You just have to accept that if these dog's were not continued to be fought there would be no more APBT. The APBT was bred for gameness you can't love a breed and turn your cheek at the people who continue to breed them to there purpose. What you love is a warrior a fighting dog know one forces them to fight it was bred into them gameness is a true virtue of the breed it's what separates them from any other breed of dog. You remove gameness from the breed you no longer have the APBT. You can't have it both ways if your so disgusted with the idea of these dogs being fought this breed is not for you.

That's not saying you should fight your dogs it's just saying you have to take the good with the bad and understand that no matter how much you couldn't fight one of yours the breed was created for that purpose and it will never end no matter what.


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## BTPB

Its a good thing That I'm not gonna stop owning them and stop fighting for them. I have 2 APBT and 4 American Bullys! And like I said, I think its wrong to support Dog fighting, You guys may think its not, But I do and thats my opinion!


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## Sadie

BTPB said:


> Its a good thing That I'm not gonna stop owning them and stop fighting for them. I have 2 APBT and 4 American Bullys! And like I said, I think its wrong to support Dog fighting, You guys may think its not, But I do and thats my opinion!


And your more than entitled to your opinion I am just letting you know that while I wouldn't fight my dogs I respect my dogs history and I understand that without preservation I wouldn't have the dogs I own right now. Preservation is key to keeping a breed true to it's purpose weather you support dog fighting or not.


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## MISSAPBT

> But people are also afraid of them because of that.


Why be afraid of a pitdog? i can guarentee they are less HA than alot of petbulls.
Manbitters were not tolerated in the pit as there is each owner also a judge in their with the dog.

APBT's are my life and they have been since i was 8years old, owning my first at 18, you are making out like i do not have a passsion with them, my passion words cannot explain, and yes we do have diffrent veiws and we both have to live with that.


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## Sadie

People only fear what they don't understand ... Once you have a true understanding of what the game dog is there is nothing to fear. Game dogs are the most mentally stable dogs on the planet.


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## MISSAPBT

I think i was the same when i was younger i thought it was horrific (as i did no know much/anything about it), until i picked up a richard stratton book, and leant alot from people online.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> But why support it? *I understand that its how these dogs were made what they are today. But people are also afraid of them because of that.* we're supposed to be helping the breed. And supporting fighting is not helping yet alone buying puppies from a known dog fighter. Yours and my views on this topic are totally different. I love pit bulls with a passion. And I will do anything to save them! I know I'm just 18, But I know more about this breed then most 18 year olds would. My moms been a trainer for them, breeder, and she shows them, both APBT and American Bullys. Shes taught me a lot about them.


NO NO NO

People are not afraid of any bully breed do to fighting... They are afraid because the media dishes out monsters on the nightly news, they are afraid because IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDERS are breeding ill breed mutts (i.e. most American Bullies), they are afraid because irresponsible owners chain their dogs up in the yard and call it a guard dog, they are afraid because they do not know the difference between HA and DA... and so on and so on

By not supporting the few real dogmen that are left then this breed would no longer exist... Of course there would still be dogs called the AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER but they would not be the same breed...

Maybe you do know a lot about these TWO DIFFERENT BREEDS but you still have a lot to learn... Read some history young buck... The original (one and only) APBT was originally breed for bull baiting, pit ratting, pit fighting AND ITS HUMAN LOYALTY... The same dogs that were fighting in the pit at 5pm were sleeping with their master's children at 9pm that same night... Now you tell me those dogs were not sound in mind and body...

What you do not understand about this site yet is that we do not (for the most part) condone dog fighting HOWEVER we collectively (again for the most part) are here to EDUCATE PEOPLE not CHANGE WHAT THE DOGS ARE.

I too like most have "pet bulls" but I know where they came from and have mad respect and understanding of it...

If you cannot respect where they came from and were originally meant to be then you should stick to the American Bullies as they were breed specifically away from the traits that made the APBT what it is as an entire breed...

Oh and please stop refering to your dogs as all the same or in the same league... American Bullies are pretty and as a breed are ok in my book BUT THEY DEFINITELY ARE NOT AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIERS.


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## BTPB

I HAVE BOTH AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIERS AND AMERICAN BULLYS! I've Said plenty of times on this thread that I owned both.


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## MISSAPBT

Who do your apbts decend from? do you have a ped on it?


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## BTPB

He is a APBT no matter what you may think.


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## MISSAPBT

Sorry i cant seem to locate the APBTs they are all bullies


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## BTPB

Harley is a APBT. Yes preserving the american pitbull terrier by breeding the game lines is fine, however activley dog fighting a game bred APBT does nothing to preserve the breed. IT only causes more reason for BSL.


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## Rudy4747

BTPB said:


> Harley is a APBT. Yes preserving the american pitbull terrier by breeding the game lines is fine, however activley dog fighting a game bred APBT does nothing to preserve the breed. IT only causes more reason for BSL.


 really?
Herding dog are still used for herding and scent hounds for tracking. If some one wants to find a dog of this kind for purpose then they go to the working stock. Same with game dogs. They need be tested to retain gameness.


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## MISSAPBT

Im sorry but Harley is not an American Pitbull Terrier, it may say on his papers but bullies are also reg'd under apbts










Hes a nice looking dog but is not an apbt

and what is XL?


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## Sadie

BTPB said:


> Harley is a APBT. Yes preserving the american pitbull terrier by breeding the game lines is fine, however activley dog fighting a game bred APBT does nothing to preserve the breed. IT only causes more reason for BSL.


I know this is going to go absolutely no where but I will give it a try anyway ... You can't preserve gameness unless you test for it. APBT's were bred for gameness do you understand what that actually means? If you did I don't think you would be saying you are ok with preserving the APBT without fighting them. You can't preserve these dogs unless they are bred for gameness you can't determine if a dog has gameness without testing for it you can't test for gameness on a WP track, in a yard fight, on a spring pole, those things are all prey drive and working drive but they do not determine if a bulldog has gameness. There is only one way to determine gameness and it's in the box.

*This is what Gameness Actually means : *

*Gameness is not the willingness to continue fighting, in any definition. In short, gameness can somewhat be described by simply the willingness to continue, under all adversity and animosity, for the sake of improvement. However, in detail, the continuance is not to be misinterpreted as succeeding; being succeeded is the ultimate goal of gameness.

Gameness does not describe anything that is perfect, simply because there is no such thing. The strive for perfection can never quite be accomplished. But, for one to strive for near perfection, never falter on a decision made, learn from obstacles and implement the strengthening of weaknesses can be described as gameness.

The idea of gameness is to be fluent and to adapt to any task at hand.

Knowledge is knowing the path, experience is to understand it.*

*Gameness can not be achieved or grasped as it is not a title or an award.Gameness is a perspective and can only be perceived in a competitive event where learning from an opposing opponent is relevant.*


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## Sadie

Also I haven't gone to look at all your dog's but I trust MissAPBT'S word if she said they are bully's I know she knows the difference... Game bred dogs or Game dogs that stem from proven bulldogs or are proven bulldogs themselves are APBT's

These are two of my dog's both of them are game bred all the way .. You can go through both ped's and look at all the dogs in these ped's you will see what I mean.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [328954] :: A'S BOGART

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175576] :: AKA X FINALE


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## SARGEnNIKITA

MISSAPBT said:


> Im sorry but Harley is not an American Pitbull Terrier, it may say on his papers but bullies are also reg'd under apbts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hes a nice looking dog but is not an apbt
> 
> and what is XL?


:goodpost::goodpost:

Yep that is definitely an American Bully...

Look my dog is not a perfect APBT he is a bit taller than standard and a bit over the weight range but he is proportionate... Key word proportionate...

APBTs are pretty well proportioned height to width to weight...

American Bullies are short, wide and typically well outside the weight standards...


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## Rudy4747

MISSAPBT said:


> Im sorry but Harley is not an American Pitbull Terrier, it may say on his papers but bullies are also reg'd under apbts
> 
> Hes a nice looking dog but is not an apbt
> 
> and what is XL?


Xl is something I relate with bullies because there are different categories. Sorry kido he looks pretty bully and a larger than standard. You should register him ABKC.

Gameness is not the willingness to continue fighting, in any definition. In short, gameness can somewhat be described by simply the willingness to continue, under all adversity and animosity, for the sake of improvement. However, in detail, the continuance is not to be misinterpreted as succeeding; being succeeded is the ultimate goal of gameness.

Gameness does not describe anything that is perfect, simply because there is no such thing. The strive for perfection can never quite be accomplished. But, for one to strive for near perfection, never falter on a decision made, learn from obstacles and implement the strengthening of weaknesses can be described as gameness.

The idea of gameness is to be fluent and to adapt to any task at hand.

Knowledge is knowing the path, experience is to understand it.
Sadie as always you make some great points but I don't think this is goiing to hit home in this case.


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## MISSAPBT

Also heres an gamebred (just like TG dogs are gamebred) American pitbull terrier, i guess you could call her XXS hehe

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [351165] :: G.G.C'S EASTEND GURL


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## Rudy4747

The hottes LBD on the block have I mention one of my fav Black dogs.


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## BTPB

Hes not short and wide. If you seen him in person you would know. The judge that saw him to register said that he was a APBT and that my mom should show him!


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## MISSAPBT

BTPB said:


> Hes not short and wide. If you seen him in person you would know. The judge that saw him to register said that he was a APBT and that my mom should show him!


Bullys are regd as apbts, doesnt mean you can call them that. sorry.


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## MISSAPBT

Rudy4747 said:


> The hottes LBD on the block have I mention one of my fav Black dogs.


:roll: I'll let her know when i see her tonight, i havent seen her in 6days i have been staying in the city for work, oh i miss her sooo much!


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## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> Hes not short and wide. If you seen him in person you would know. The judge that saw him to register said that he was a APBT and that my mom should show him!


HMMMMM... Are you listening to anything anyone is telling you?


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## Sadie

Guy's I think we have hit a brick wall and there is no getting through this one. All we can do is give them the facts if they don't want to listen let em go ... On that note I wish you all the best I hope that you continue to stick around and do some more research you will find that even if you don't want to agree with us we are not telling you anything that is false or untrue. Many of us have a great deal of exp with these dogs. The longer your around these dogs the more you will learn. But you have to be open to at least listening to people who may just know more than you do.


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## aus_staffy

This has become fairly amusing. BTPB, you have bullies not APBTs. If you call them bullies then nobody is going to have a problem as there is as much appreciation here for bullies as there is for APBTs. 

I'm sure Harley is a great dog but I'd like to see you try and take him to an ADBA show. If you do, make sure and tell us how it goes.


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## Rudy4747

Sadie said:


> Guy's I think we have hit a brick wall and there is no getting through this one. All we can do is give them the facts if they don't want to listen let em go ... On that note I wish you all the best I hope that you continue to stick around and do some more research you will find that even if you don't want to agree with us we are not telling you anything that is false or untrue. Many of us have a great deal of exp with these dogs. The longer your around these dogs the more you will learn. But you have to be open to at least listening to people who may just know more than you do.


Aww he is just a kid when i was that age no one knew more than me. In a few years when he looks back at this he will say man how did I eva think I was right? It took me countless days and nights of research to get were I am and I feel I just now am cracking the surface. So many of you have helped, so thanks.


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## Rudy4747

MISSAPBT said:


> :roll: I'll let her know when i see her tonight, i havent seen her in 6days i have been staying in the city for work, oh i miss her sooo much!


Way to long to be away from your babies.


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## aus_staffy

Rudy4747 said:


> *Aww he is just a kid when i was that age no one knew more than me. * In a few years when he looks back at this he will say man how did I eva think I was right? It took me countless days and nights of research to get were I am and I feel I just now am cracking the surface. So many of you have helped, so thanks.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost: You said a mouthful right there, mate.


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## MISSAPBT

Rudy4747 said:


> Way to long to be away from your babies.


The longest i have ever been away, they were both going crazy when i came home, good end to the day when its been a crappy day.

And Re: the above posts, i go back and look at mine and i just laugh at some of the silly things i wrote


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## MY MIKADO

I would just like to say that I think everyone that partook in tis thread has been very respectful. It is nice to see a long thread like this stay so clean. 

I too would say that he has Bullies but I'm sure in a few months time he will come to realize this.


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## BTPB

Most APBT owners that I know the respectable ones don't test their dogs to see if they still have game in them. What kind of person would do that to a animal? A lot of you on here may think its right, But A lot of people I know (Rescues, breeders, judges for shows) Don't. It may not look like it in the picture, BUT HARLEY IS A APBT. You haven't seen him in person. Hes not wide and hes not short. I've been around the breed my entire life and we've had judges that go to the shows to judge the APBT and American Bullys teach me, other well known breeders teach me and my mom teach me about both breeds.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

MISSAPBT said:


> Manbitters were not tolerated in the pit as there is each owner also a judge in their with the dog.
> QUOTE]
> 
> This is not true as long as the dog won being a manbiter was tolerated and breed many times.
> dog fighters were interested in one thing a dog that would win in the box
> 
> Although I am young I dont think I know everything this is a fact I learned from this very site because I too believed that dog fighters did not breed man biters but it isnt true


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> MISSAPBT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Manbitters were not tolerated in the pit as there is each owner also a judge in their with the dog.
> QUOTE]
> 
> This is not true as long as the dog won being a manbiter was tolerated and breed many times.
> dog fighters were interested in one thing a dog that would win in the box
> 
> Although I am young I dont think I know everything this is a fact I learned from this very site because I too believed that dog fighters did not breed man biters but it isnt true
> 
> 
> 
> :hammer::hammer:
> 
> Read any history book manbiters in MOST cases were culled...
Click to expand...


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

I think the dogs name was zebo if I'm not mistaken and there was another one that I saw as well went through many hands and not one dogman culled him for biteing people actually they breed this ont alot. With all the hands that touched this dog not culling him stands to reson if those people can across another winner that was a man biter they wouldnt have culled them either

correction chinaman was the dog I refer to in this case


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## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> Most APBT owners that I know the respectable ones don't test their dogs to see if they still have game in them. What kind of person would do that to a animal? A lot of you on here may think its right, But A lot of people I know (Rescues, breeders, judges for shows) Don't. It may not look like it in the picture, BUT HARLEY IS A APBT. You haven't seen him in person. Hes not wide and hes not short. I've been around the breed my entire life and we've had judges that go to the shows to judge the APBT and American Bullys teach me, other well known breeders teach me and my mom teach me about both breeds.


Its great to see that you have people that are teaching you HOWEVER you have a lot to learn... No one here stated that we condone testing for game but without it we do not have the same breed... Do you get that?

I looked at your other photo of Harley and he probably is not an APBT... His papers my say he is but that does not mean he is...

This exact situation is the problem with registries right now... Many people took an APBT and mixed it with a mastiff line years ago and we got the American Bully however they were still fibbing on the paperwork as to who the pups dame and sire were therefore they were still registering under the APBT name but they were not true APBTs... Now in UKC and ADBA there are hundreds of dogs registered as an APBT that are really American Bullies...

You do not have to believe anything anyone says all I am saying is go do some research, read some books...


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I think the dogs name was zebo if I'm not mistaken and there was another one that I saw as well went through many hands and not one dogman culled him for biteing people actually they breed this ont alot. With all the hands that touched this dog not culling him stands to reson if those people can across another winner that was a man biter they wouldnt have culled them either
> 
> correction chinaman was the dog I refer to in this case


I am going back further than that... And just because on one yard they did not cull a manbiter does not mean all dogmen ran their yards like this.


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## Sadie

There were a few man bitter's that dog men kept zebo was one and bullyson was another those 2 off the top of my head come to mind. But it was not common practice to keep man eater's some of them were an exception to the rule.

Chinaman was another


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

They still are great dogs and I certainly love them but wether rare or not it did happen and if you argue it didnt we set our selve up for faliure. Like you guys say we have to execpt the good with the bad


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Alitlebit_ofJACK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read any history book manbiters in MOST cases were culled...
> 
> 
> 
> This brings up a question I have what books would anyone suggest as far as the history of the dog when it was still bull baiting or right as that was made illegal
Click to expand...


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## Rudy4747

Sadie said:


> There were a few man bitter's that dog men kept zebo was one and bullyson was another those 2 off the top of my head come to mind. But it was not common practice to keep man eater's some of them were an exception to the rule.
> 
> Chinaman was another


Of these dogs how many were bred from there lines. Tons and that is a few that we know about. I respect the dogmen of yesteryear, but know that just as most culled man biters. that there few who did not fo purpose of that dog being great in the box, and that was selfish.


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## Rudy4747

BTPB said:


> Most APBT owners that I know the respectable ones don't test their dogs to see if they still have game in them. What kind of person would do that to a animal? A lot of you on here may think its right, But A lot of people I know (Rescues, breeders, judges for shows) Don't. It may not look like it in the picture, BUT HARLEY IS A APBT. You haven't seen him in person. Hes not wide and hes not short. I've been around the breed my entire life and we've had judges that go to the shows to judge the APBT and American Bullys teach me, other well known breeders teach me and my mom teach me about both breeds.


Look kid I am not one to be tough on some one so young but just want to say something, it might come off rude but i have to say it. I have now seeing your site. If you have been taught by so many who know so much. Then why has no said why are you breeding out of paportion dogs, who are not health tested and have won no titles. Your website has not one champion nor does it have a titled dog of any shape. The dog you call an APBT has no conformation for the breed. But makes a great bully. I would like you to invite any one who has taught you so much to this site. It seems they have a little to learn them selves.


----------



## BTPB

We just started showing our dogs again. We moved here from georgia about 11 years ago, we lived in a trailer park. My dad was working out of state and my mom was in School for nursing. We showed our dogs when we lived in GA. SO WE are activley showing our dogs!


----------



## Mach0

This thread should be locked. Its not going anywhere and you can't argue with ignorance. It's obvious that the kid has a bully. But he won't admit it. I was In the same boat. I was around these dogs for years but didn't know what a bully Is. There isn't anything wrong with the animal. Only problem Is the misrepresentation. They are separate breeds. Sure the ADBA and the ukc haven't recognized a separate breed yet. They are Bred for two different purposes. I like bullies. Only problem Is that they are still inconsistent. When they solidify their breeding and eliminate alot of the genetic issues, they would be a better breed. As far as testing for game, I wouldn't do it but it's necessary to keep the breed true. You can't buy something that doesn't work lol. But to shun it completely Is foolish, shows lack of knowledge, and thickheadedness. Different strokes for different folks. Dont like it? Get another breed of dog. To fully appreciate something, you need to fully understand it. Very simple. Opinions are like a••holes, everyones got one. But facts are facts. I own a bully who Is registered as a APBT with the ADBA but isnt ADBA standards. Just relax, stick around and learn. There are plenty of knowledgeable people here that love the breed and will give you tons of useful information.


----------



## Kayo45

BTPB said:


> We just started showing our dogs again. We moved here from georgia about 11 years ago, we lived in a trailer park. My dad was working out of state and my mom was in School for nursing. We showed our dogs when we lived in GA. SO WE are activley showing our dogs!


Here is the thing about showing dogs. It doesn't prove that you have a bulldog and breeding those dogs for looks means you just have Amstaffs. APBT's are gamedogs, not show dogs.

Also Chinaman was more of an excite bitter if anything. He bit Vinny when he got the dog back but Chinaman was in horrible condition and was treated like **** up till that point. And man-biting isn't a trait that passes on to pups. Thats more of an individual dog mental mind side type of thing. Dogman would cull man-biters because that **** was not allowed in the [] and would get them DQ'd if it bit the ref or the other handler.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK

its funny the exeptions are made but the fact remains numerouse man biting dogs I am not talking ha dogs but man biting dogs where and probably are still not culled. this may an except to the rules but not all manbiters are culled saying so is spreading false info which I'm sure everyone can agree is not needed.
Cant remember for sure if it was chinaman or not but one dog took the ear lobe off of the owners' son and was still breed. Now weather it transfer while breeding dont know and if doent great but thats besides the point.

I hate this lie becuae I thought this was true and used this in my aguments before. Now I know use a different arguement


----------



## Kayo45

man-biting isn't a genetic trait. If it was, all zebo dogs would be man-biters


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK

I never said it was and even if it was a genetic trait it certainly doent mean all the pups would be manbiters. If it was genetic which I have no clue whether it is or not would be that some could be.


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Kayo45 said:


> man-biting isn't a genetic trait.


and I would also like to know how you know for sure this isnt genetic are you a vet or a doctor of some type


----------



## Rudy4747

BTPB said:


> We just started showing our dogs again. We moved here from georgia about 11 years ago, we lived in a trailer park. My dad was working out of state and my mom was in School for nursing. We showed our dogs when we lived in GA. SO WE are activley showing our dogs!


Sorry you could not show more often, but circumstance does not give an excuse for breeding unproven dogs. I want to say for every one in IMO if your breed a dog that has not proven itself ( if it be in conformation weight pull, or some type of obedience) then you are doing a disservice to this breed. If you have dogs that you show and none have titled yet, you can not say that you are breeding show dogs. same for weight pull. If you have a dog that has game dogs generations back, you can not say for sure he is game. APBT are the best and they deserve to only have the best educated breeders producing dogs. No matter the circumstance.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

:goodpost:


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## BTPB

Hmmmm.... well go back to the website. Zeus was only 5-6 months old at the time and got 2nd place in his first show and two 1st place ribbons in the second show. So That does prove something. I'm not gonna talk about this no more. I know what I know and you know what you know. We'll just leave it at that. You guys think that you have to test Gamebred dogs to retain gameness, While I know a lot of gamebred owners that told me you don't have to. We made these dogs what they are today and whether you guys choose to agree with that, thats up to you. Now its time to make things right! And thats what I'm here to do.


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## BTPB

Tia Torres has said this, Ceasar Millan has, And shorty has said it! And they all have more experience than you do!


----------



## Black Label Romo

BTPB said:


> Tia Torres has said this, Ceasar Millan has, And shorty has said it! And they all have more experience than you do!


You got great lookin dogs buddy...and I was actually hoping people would lay off ya...but then you came with this one...

:flush::flush::flush::flush::flush:


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## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> Tia Torres has said this, Ceasar Millan has, And shorty has said it! And they all have more experience than you do!


LOL:rofl::rofl::rofl:
:hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer:

 This statement worries me if you think you are going to save the American Pit Bull Terrier all by yourself...

Do you realise that I myself have more experience then almost all of them with this breed? Do you realise that there is collectively hundreds of years of experience on this site with this breed?

But its cool you know it all!! Go ahead and think that...


----------



## Aireal

Lone Star said:


> You got great lookin dogs buddy...and I was actually hoping people would lay off ya...but then you came with this one...
> 
> :flush::flush::flush::flush::flush:


:rofl::goodpost::goodpost::hammer:


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## BTPB

I never said i was gonna save them all by myself. Like I said we made them what they are today! And thats on us, Its our choice to fix it! And arguing is not getting us anywhere. BSL is after these dogs because of the dog fighting, irresponsible owners that have these dogs whether it be a APBT or Am. Bully Does it really matter? There both in the same boat. Its all of it that BSL is targetting!


----------



## American_Pit13

Everyone get your panties out of a bunch and calm down. 


There is also a thread already going on HA dogs in history so take that convo to that thread


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## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> I never said i was gonna save them all by myself. Like I said we made them what they are today! And thats on us, Its our choice to fix it! And arguing is not getting us anywhere. BSL is after these dogs because of the dog fighting, irresponsible owners that have these dogs whether it be a APBT or Am. Bully Does it really matter? There both in the same boat. Its all of it that BSL is targetting!


Again BSL is only after these breeds because of being mis-informed!!

You cannot change history, you cannot change where this breed came from or what it was meant for... I am just saying try a different approach, Try educating rather than changing an entire breed and all its owners.


----------



## BTPB

Then why are they after the German Shepherds, Boxers, Dobbermans?? Its not from being misinformed. Its because of bad owners and dog fighting.


----------



## Firehazard

NO but you can remind people that the police in this nation began a sort of gang if you will and that the Police Gazette had the illegal boxing and dog matching contests and outcomes listed until the propaganda of change... LOL


----------



## BTPB

Punish the deed, NOT the Breed! The law needs to be changed to what New England has. If you abuse a animal or fight them you go to jail and have your kids tooken away!


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> Then why are they after the German Shepherds, Boxers, Dobbermans?? Its not from being misinformed. Its because of bad owners and dog fighting.


Because German Shepard are known guard dogs that in the wrong hands can bite people and attack... but have been overly publicized by the media...

Because boxers "look" like "pit bulls" to many people... another sign of uneducated...

Because Dobermans were the "vicious" dog of the early 80's... again mis-informed...


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> Punish the deed, NOT the Breed! The law needs to be changed to what New England has. If you abuse a animal or fight them you go to jail and have your kids *tooken* away!


:rofl::rofl: Sorry but that is funny

Why dont you go back in my posts (in the search feature) and read the 30 page research paper I wrote on this breed.... It has a lot of good information in it...


----------



## BTPB

Yes... and Pit Bulls in the wrong hands can do the same thing! Its the owners!


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> Yes... and Pit Bulls in the wrong hands can do the same thing! Its the owners!


I agree to some extent that there are bad owners I am not arguing that...
BSL is a combination of many things but you are not going to change BSL by trying to change the breed or its responsible owners (including game testing ones)... BSL will and can be changed by educating people...


----------



## Rudy4747

BTPB said:


> Hmmmm.... well go back to the website. Zeus was only 5-6 months old at the time and got 2nd place in his first show and two 1st place ribbons in the second show. So That does prove something. I'm not gonna talk about this no more. I know what I know and you know what you know. We'll just leave it at that. You guys think that you have to test Gamebred dogs to retain gameness, While I know a lot of gamebred owners that told me you don't have to. We made these dogs what they are today and whether you guys choose to agree with that, thats up to you. Now its time to make things right! And thats what I'm here to do.


Zeus is a great bully but I truly think you don't understand what your talking about when it comes to purpose. Two showings does not title your dog. And i am happy you watch tv dog trainers. like Shorty............:roll::roll::roll: Any how I will go back to my earlier statement You are young and have much t learn about APBT. But happy to know that you feel strongly about BSL. just wish you stop breeding till you learned more about the breeds you chose to produce. At least Mr. Garner knows what he has that is what we were talking about wasn't it?


----------



## Firehazard

ahh.. in WWII the criminals had GSDs and Rotti's and all the Good citizens had that lil dog on the Lil Rascals.. LOL the American Mascott.. Neutral but aint afraid of none of em.. WE NEED TO REMEMBER OUR ROOTS... IF you WANT ENGLAND move there, we liberated ourselves from England, Remember? The land of the FREE the Home of the BRAVE, then a big white APBT head in front of the AMerican flag.. ((ahhh)) Aint that America?

keep rollin rollin rollin,, keep rollin rollin rollin, keep rollin, rollin, rollin, .. .(limpbizkit)


----------



## BTPB

Ok, Let me tell you something really Fast. My mom does the breeding! I do the showing with her. This whole pit bull thing and AM. Bully thing is a family thing that we all do! She makes sure that she has homes before she breeds any of our females and we only have 1 liter a year. Thats better than most people who have liters and don't have people that want them! That website, Yea thats my moms. She runs that. And she does know what shes doing before she breeds them, looks over the pedigrees on the studs to make sure they are good lines and looks for good temperment! And thats better than what most people will do that are just in it for the money!


----------



## BTPB

Not a boy, I'm a girl.


----------



## Sadie

Rudy4747 said:


> Of these dogs how many were bred from there lines. Tons and that is a few that we know about. I respect the dogmen of yesteryear, but know that just as most culled man biters. that there few who did not fo purpose of that dog being great in the box, and that was selfish.


I hear you I am just going to be being honest if it was pre 76 and I had a beast of of game dog or producer I wouldn't cull the dog .. Yes it's selfish but look at how many great dogs came down from those man eater's and there accomplishment's .. Like I said it was not common practice to keep man eater's but there were certain dogs that were the exception to that rule. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad and roll with it.


----------



## Sadie

BTPB said:


> Ok, Let me tell you something really Fast. My mom does the breeding! I do the showing with her. This whole pit bull thing and AM. Bully thing is a family thing that we all do! She makes sure that she has homes before she breeds any of our females and we only have 1 liter a year. Thats better than most people who have liters and don't have people that want them! That website, Yea thats my moms. She runs that. And she does know what shes doing before she breeds them, looks over the pedigrees on the studs to make sure they are good lines and looks for good temperment! And thats better than what most people will do that are just in it for the money!


There's just one IMPORTANT thing your forgetting in this whole post your mom might be doing some great things with those dogs and you guys I have no doubt are taking great care of them but your breeding and don't even know what your breeding. Your mom is breeding and passing off American bullies as APBT's. If you knew how to read your dog's pedigree's you would know that those dogs are NOT APBT's.


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## BTPB

No no no!!! Harley came to us from a owner that has APBT's that she bred and harley is a APBT! You can come and see him in person if you would like to. The others we have, are marked on their pedigree as AM. Bullies. And the puppies we sell from the AM. Bullys are Registered as AM. Bullys by UKC, ADBA, ABKC! My mom knows how to read pedigrees. Shes Had pitbulls since she was 18 and started showing when she was 20 and she had champion show dogs! She also started Breeding when she was 20 to!


----------



## Rudy4747

Sadie said:


> I hear you I am just going to be being honest if it was pre 76 and I had a beast of of game dog or producer I wouldn't cull the dog .. Yes it's selfish but look at how many great dogs came down from those man eater's and there accomplishment's .. Like I said it was not common practice to keep man eater's but there were certain dogs that were the exception to that rule. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad and roll with it.


Yep said it was selfish but never said in the same situation I would not do the same. The difference between those men and the hoodlums of today were todays kids that breed crap just don't care for the dogs the same way.

Thats better than most people who have liters and don't have people that want them! That website, Yea thats my moms. She runs that. And she does know what shes doing before she breeds them, looks over the pedigrees on the studs to make sure they are good lines and looks for good temperment! And thats better than what most people will do that are just in it for the money!
Today 05:47 PM
Can you ask your mom on what grounds she is breeding the dogs? What is it that looks for when breeding two dogs. You have mediocre peds on the dogs and no titles. What is the point? Sorry if that is rude but you can't bash people on there thoughts if you barley doing the right things with the dogs you have.


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## Sadie

I looked at harley I don't need to even see his pedigree to know he's not an APBT... He is an obvious bully that has some staff blood mixed in. Whoever you got harley from lied to you or those paper's are hung Harley is no where near an APBT. Do you know what an APBT looks like? As a matter of fact why don't you tell me how Harley is bred since you know he's an APBT


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## BTPB

What does it matter if they have titles or not?? The dogs come from really good lines and they all have really good temperments! Our breeding program consist of pedigree’s
with names like: Lor’s Drago, Xtrembully’s “Comet” and Sky; Ironmanpits
Dillinger, Cyrus, Gracie and Gwen; Dee’s Hennessey; Paco; Throwin Knuckles;
Rhino Jr – these are only a few. She looks for good bone structure, temperments, She looks at the past produced liters to make sure they don't have any defects like kinked tails, underbites/overbites, easty/ Westy feet, Pooped out shoulders.


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## BTPB

Look We were told that he was a APBT. I'm not gonna try to prove myself to you guys. I'm done with this thread.


----------



## Sadie

BTPB said:


> What does it matter if they have titles or not?? The dogs come from really good lines and they all have really good temperments! Our breeding program consist of pedigree's
> with names like: Lor's Drago, Xtrembully's "Comet" and Sky; Ironmanpits
> Dillinger, Cyrus, Gracie and Gwen; Dee's Hennessey; Paco; Throwin Knuckles;
> Rhino Jr - these are only a few. She looks for good bone structure, temperments, She looks at the past produced liters to make sure they don't have any defects like kinked tails, underbites/overbites, easty/ Westy feet, Pooped out shoulders.


Those aren't pedigree's those are bloodlines/names of dogs and they are ALL bully . Harley doesn't have to be 100 pounds easty-westy low to the ground and undershot to be considered an American Bully not all All american bullies look like that for one. And 2 there are some American Bullies who have more staff blood in them than bully blood so they are on the well built side of the spectrum. Some people even have bullies with game blood mixed into them. You have to know the dog's in Harley's pedigree and what's behind them. Harley is just on the smaller side for and American Bully and my guess is he has more staff blood in him than he does bully blood.


----------



## Sadie

BTPB said:


> Look We were told that he was a APBT. I'm not gonna try to prove myself to you guys. I'm done with this thread.


Yeah and you were lied to. I am sorry they lied to you but it happens. Either way hope you stick around you have much more to learn.


----------



## BTPB

Furlow's Might Blue Zeus
Dam
Hughzee's Cleopatra Blue
Dam
Fetia's Blue Mia Sire
Durham's PJB Mister
Dam
Evans' Tiny PJB
Dam
Mutschler's Sky Sire
Mutschler's Wolverine Sire
Chaos' Blue O.G.
Dam
Simms' Baby
Dam
Mutschler's Mystique Sire
Davis' Icon Gladiator
Dam
Miss Kali O'Mally

Sire
Al-Uqdah's Blueberry Sire
Furlow's Blue Hoss

Thats Harley pedigree, He's 60 pounds.


----------



## Sadie




----------



## Sadie

Those dog's are all AMERICAN BULLY'S !!! Not one of them are APBT's


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## Sadie

And this is a side picture of harley ... So your telling me this dog is sound in structure?


----------



## Sadie

This is an APBT ... Do you see the difference now?


----------



## Kayo45

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> and I would also like to know how you know for sure this isnt genetic are you a vet or a doctor of some type


Put it this way, chinaman and zebo are considered man biters. Both dogs were still bred so if it is a genetic trait it would show up in their offspring. Look at frisco for example, he is double bred chinaman through a father daughter breeding. If it was genetic, that trait would definitely show in him and his offspring aswell, yet none of frisco's kids were man biters nore was frisco. Even double bred frisco dogs like dynamite are not ha yet people believe this is a trait. It would even show up in tight bred chinaman and frisco dogs with them in the first 4 generations if it was genetic. Bottom line is this, study up on genetics and research pedigrees


----------



## Kayo45

also the dog up top looks like an amstaff or ambully. Dont see one apbt in the ped either


----------



## william williamson

look intooo the crystal balls,(ignore the hair follicles)
and what do you see?
ahh,it's the mother,sheeezzz goingga to-A telll usss,that we're alll crazzzzy and Aknow nooothinga about pitz.

now,pay me my fee for my forecast or I'm gonna hinky yo as$.


----------



## junkyard

It allways astounds me that people who do no real research at all cant seem to handle it when they get ripped off due to being blatantly ignorant.

The only people who call bullys apbt are bully owners.

Thankfully that percentage is changing.


----------



## junkyard

Back to topic, garner is the biggestpeddler the bulldog world has ever seen.

He also has some of the best stock, and has owned a few of the greatest bulldogs to ever look through a collar.


----------



## Sadie

junkyard said:


> Back to topic, garner is the biggestpeddler the bulldog world has ever seen.
> 
> He also has some of the best stock, and has owned a few of the greatest bulldogs to ever look through a collar.


LOL ... I just looked at the 19 litter's he has on the ground as we speak. Would you buy a dog off him Junk? I don't know if I would pay 900.00 for one of his pups but I agree he has some of the best stock and def has owned and bred some great ones. I guess being a peddler has it's perks if your TG LOL


----------



## Kayo45

Alot of tha top breeders peddled pups(carver and pat being some) and when floyd and pat still had their dogs they were asking for around the same price for pups. Honestly, the way I see it if you're gonna peddle pups, atleast make them good pups with solid studs and bitches. This is I dont blame tg, pat or carver peddling dogs. Because they peddled some good sh!t


----------



## Sadie

Kayo45 said:


> Alot of tha top breeders peddled pups(carver and pat being some) and when floyd and pat still had their dogs they were asking for around the same price for pups. Honestly, the way I see it if you're gonna peddle pups, atleast make them good pups with solid studs and bitches. This is I dont blame tg, pat or carver peddling dogs. Because they peddled some good sh!t


Well here I agree if your going to peddle at least peddle some QUALITY dogs. Percentage wise with that many pups on the ground I wonder how many of them kicked out are actually quality bulldogs.


----------



## Kayo45

Depends mostly on the breedings he has. Most of the ones he has listed should produce some very good dogs


----------



## Sadie

I might have to try some of that garner stuff in the near future LOL right now I have my hands and legs tied Bogart is wearing me out LOL ... But I have some friends who have gotten dogs from TG and seem to be very happy with them.


----------



## Kayo45

LoL, that bogart dog of yours is bred nice. I like the mayday dogs. Very strong and smart dogs.

Yea no one I know has a problem with his dogs. Most produce good and perform great. Very good dogs


----------



## aus_staffy

Firehazard said:


> ahh.. in WWII the criminals had GSDs and Rotti's and all the Good citizens had that lil dog on the Lil Rascals.. LOL the American Mascott.. Neutral but aint afraid of none of em.. WE NEED TO REMEMBER OUR ROOTS... *IF you WANT ENGLAND move there, we liberated ourselves from England, Remember? * The land of the FREE the Home of the BRAVE, then a big white APBT head in front of the AMerican flag.. ((ahhh)) Aint that America?
> 
> keep rollin rollin rollin,, keep rollin rollin rollin, keep rollin, rollin, rollin, .. .(limpbizkit)


I believe she was talking about New England not Old England.:roll:


----------



## aus_staffy

Mach0 said:


> This thread should be locked. Its not going anywhere and you can't argue with ignorance. It's obvious that the kid has a bully. But he won't admit it. I was In the same boat. I was around these dogs for years but didn't know what a bully Is. There isn't anything wrong with the animal. Only problem Is the misrepresentation. They are separate breeds. Sure the ADBA and the ukc haven't recognized a separate breed yet. They are Bred for two different purposes. I like bullies. Only problem Is that they are still inconsistent. When they solidify their breeding and eliminate alot of the genetic issues, they would be a better breed. As far as testing for game, I wouldn't do it but it's necessary to keep the breed true. You can't buy something that doesn't work lol. But to shun it completely Is foolish, shows lack of knowledge, and thickheadedness. Different strokes for different folks. Dont like it? Get another breed of dog. To fully appreciate something, you need to fully understand it. Very simple. Opinions are like a••holes, everyones got one. But facts are facts. I own a bully who Is registered as a APBT with the ADBA but isnt ADBA standards. Just relax, stick around and learn. There are plenty of knowledgeable people here that love the breed and will give you tons of useful information.


Aside from wanting the it to be locked, this is one of the best posts of the thread.


----------



## junkyard

Sadie, its hard to say if i would buy one, he asks the same or a cheaper price that an average dog does down here to average joe. 
I have never paid even close to that amount ever.
The way things are down here these days its looking more and more like i will be paying a very similar price for my next dog.
Hypothetically if i could import dogs into Australia i would not import a garner dog. 
I have a few American friends who thankfully think enough of me that i could get a few free ones if i needed to import.


----------



## Mach0

aus_staffy said:


> Aside from wanting the it to be locked, this is one of the best posts of the thread.


Because it was nowhere near the original topic and hasn't gotten anywhere but pure entertainment lol


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Sadie said:


> This is an APBT ... Do you see the difference now?


:clap:wow this is an amazing looking dog sadie


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Kayo45 said:


> Put it this way, chinaman and zebo are considered man biters. Both dogs were still bred so if it is a genetic trait it would show up in their offspring. Look at frisco for example, he is double bred chinaman through a father daughter breeding. If it was genetic, that trait would definitely show in him and his offspring aswell, yet none of frisco's kids were man biters nore was frisco. Even double bred frisco dogs like dynamite are not ha yet people believe this is a trait. It would even show up in tight bred chinaman and frisco dogs with them in the first 4 generations if it was genetic. Bottom line is this, study up on genetics and research pedigrees


so you check everydog that was breed from these to know that not one of them were man biters. I do find this very hard to believe. Again I never said it was gentetic I said I dont know. Considering how much these dogs were breed I doubt there is info about everyone. And thats all I have to say about that my post was never about genetics just the simple fact that they were breed


----------



## Kayo45

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> so you check everydog that was breed from these to know that not one of them were man biters. I do find this very hard to believe. Again I never said it was gentetic I said I dont know. Considering how much these dogs were breed I doubt there is info about everyone. And thats all I have to say about that my post was never about genetics just the simple fact that they were breed


I go by what I see and based on peds where dogs are DOUBLE BRED off a man biter, it should definately show up in their offspring and dogs with several different man biters in the ped. Heavy Zebo, Heavy Bolio and Heavy Chinaman bred dogs should show this "trait" if it's genetic and I have haven't seen any. How many have you seen?


----------



## Alitlebit_ofJACK

I never claimed one way or the other and they do have more than one dog just because the ones that made a name for them selves did not have it doesnt mean all of them didnt. when you have a litter how many it each litter are gonna make a name for the dog. My point is you a claiming something with no base in fact just because you haveent seen it doesnt make it true. If agression was not a trait why would chooseing what dogs you breed to gether matter. If agression wasnt genetic then you could have any dog have aqgression. If the Amstaff where breed to be less da and games dogs are breed to be more da then seems to me ha would be the same thing but again I dont know so I can not say if thhis is true or not. And thats all I will say about that no more


----------



## Kayo45

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> I never claimed one way or the other and they do have more than one dog just because the ones that made a name for them selves did not have it doesnt mean all of them didnt. when you have a litter how many it each litter are gonna make a name for the dog. My point is you a claiming something with no base in fact just because you haveent seen it doesnt make it true. If agression was not a trait why would chooseing what dogs you breed to gether matter. If agression wasnt genetic then you could have any dog have aqgression. If the Amstaff where breed to be less da and games dogs are breed to be more da then seems to me ha would be the same thing but again I dont know so I can not say if thhis is true or not. And thats all I will say about that no more


I did give you a base, dogs double bred off a man biter should show this trait heavy in there offspring. i never seen or heard of them throwing consistent man biters in any of the lines I mentioned. And thats why i said to study up on peds and genetics


----------



## dday

Kayo45 said:


> I did give you a base, dogs double bred off a man biter should show this trait heavy in there offspring. i never seen or heard of them throwing consistent man biters in any of the lines I mentioned. And thats why i said to study up on peds and genetics


You seem to be a very intelligent man, but I am going to have to strongly disagree with you on this point. Through out history, canines have been breed for temperament. Aggression, whether Da or Ha can, and has been genetically breed into different breeds of dogs.


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## Oldskool Brent

Funny thread.


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> No no no!!! Harley came to us from a owner that has APBT's that she bred and harley is a APBT! You can come and see him in person if you would like to. The others we have, are marked on their pedigree as AM. Bullies. *And the puppies we sell from the AM. Bullys are Registered as AM. Bullys by UKC, ADBA, ABKC*! My mom knows how to read pedigrees. Shes Had pitbulls since she was 18 and started showing when she was 20 and she had champion show dogs! She also started Breeding when she was 20 to!


And that right there tells me that you do not know enough to be breeding anything... And no one around you knows enough either...


----------



## MISSAPBT

dday said:


> You seem to be a very intelligent man, but I am going to have to strongly disagree with you on this point. Through out history, canines have been breed for temperament. Aggression, whether Da or Ha can, and has been genetically breed into different breeds of dogs.


So your saying every single puppy that came from Zebo, bullyson, tonka, peterbuilt ect wre HA?


----------



## dday

MISSAPBT said:


> So your saying every single puppy that came from Zebo, bullyson, tonka, peterbuilt ect wre HA?


MISSAPBT; That is not even close to what I said. I am sure the vast majority of their offspring are NOT HA. Because bull dogs where never breed to be HA in the first place. All I am saying is, the odds of producing HA bull dogs are increased when the parents are HA. Temperament traits have, and can be passed down in canines.


----------



## aus_staffy

dday said:


> MISSAPBT; That is not even close to what I said. I am sure the vast majority of their offspring are NOT HA. Because bull dogs where never breed to be HA in the first place. All I am saying is, the odds of producing HA bull dogs are increased when the parents are HA. Temperament traits have, and can be passed down in canines.


I tend to agree with this point of view. If temperament traits weren't passed on then why use game tested parents to breed? If gameness has a chance to be passed on then why not HA traits? Not saying that every pup in every litter will have the trait but there would be an increased chance.


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## Oldskool Brent

All I can say is that if I can't pet the parents, I don't want the pups. I don't know any stats, but what I do know is there's plenty of human loving pits that were/are great, so there is no human aggressive dog worth taking the risk on. Bobby Peru is the known HA dog on Garner's lot right now, and he's a good looking dog, but look at Rusty, that dog looks like he could bite through a tank and he loves people, so Peru isn't a risk I would take.


----------



## Sadie

But Peru is still being bred anyone have any dog's off him that are HA? I mean it would make sense that HA is a trait and a temperament flaw just like gameness is a trait so I am sure it could be passed along but I wonder how high the percentages would be if you bred that HA dog to a dog with a well rounded temperament. I think if you bred 2 HA dog's together the chances would increase. Then again some dogs are just NUTS they aren't wired right and don't need to be breathing. I still say in today's world there is no place for an HA dog but I can see why some of those old dogmen would have kept one if they were outstanding producer's or performer's the the benefit's outweighed the risks so they were kept alive.


----------



## Oldskool Brent

Sadie said:


> But Peru is still being bred anyone have any dog's off him that are HA? I mean it would make sense that HA is a trait and a temperament flaw just like gameness is a trait so I am sure it could be passed along but I wonder how high the percentages would be if you bred that HA dog to a dog with a well rounded temperament. I think if you bred 2 HA dog's together the chances would increase. Then again some dogs are just NUTS they aren't wired right and don't need to be breathing. I still say in today's world there is no place for an HA dog but I can see why some of those old dogmen would have kept one if they were outstanding producer's or performer's the the benefit's outweighed the risks so they were kept alive.


I bet the percentages are low, real low. For all we know Bobby Peru wasn't treated worth a crap during his younger years.

If someone found a straw of Zebo lying around, I would certainly bend my rule a little.


----------



## Sadie

Oldskool Brent said:


> I bet the percentages are low, real low. For all we know Bobby Peru wasn't treated worth a crap during his younger years.
> 
> If someone found a straw of Zebo lying around, I would certainly bend my rule a little.


I here that !!!!!!!!  And most of us would be in line trying to get a little piece of that offspring hahaha


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## BTPB

I thought it was decided that we weren't talking about me anymore??? I thought you guys were going back to talking about Garner???


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## aus_staffy

BTPB said:


> I thought it was decided that we weren't talking about me anymore??? I thought you guys were going back to talking about Garner???


Who's talking about you?


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## Sadie

BTPB said:


> I thought it was decided that we weren't talking about me anymore??? I thought you guys were going back to talking about Garner???


BTPB we are talking about Bobby Peru a dog off Tom Garner's yard. And HA dog's we are not talking about you or your dogs


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## BTPB

lol.... oh ok, Well I was replying to the post from SARGEnNIKITA. She doesn't know me and what I stand for, I know I still need to learn more about them. But I do know more than most 18 year olds do. Sorry I missed typed the last one that I put up yesterday! We register our dogs through UKC and ADBA as American Pit Bull Terriers because they don't recognize American Bullys as a different breed. They still recognize them as a APBT. And ABKC does AM. Bully. But don't tell me that I shouldn't or my mom shouldn't be breeding anything. You don't know me or my family!


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## MISSAPBT

I like richards strattons veiws on man biters. Keep one if you must, but take care if you do.


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## MISSAPBT

BTPB said:


> lol.... oh ok, Well I was replying to the post from SARGEnNIKITA. She doesn't know me and what I stand for, I know I still need to learn more about them. But I do know more than most 18 year olds do. Sorry I missed typed the last one that I put up yesterday! We register our dogs through UKC and ADBA as American Pit Bull Terriers because they don't recognize American Bullys as a different breed. They still recognize them as a APBT. And ABKC does AM. Bully. But don't tell me that I shouldn't or my mom shouldn't be breeding anything. You don't know me or my family!


SnK doesn't have to know you to decide what type of 'breeder' you and your family are, you made it very clear with your posts.


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## BTPB

But none of you know me, I'm new here... I can post up pictures of puppys a APBT that we do have named jazz.. All I did when I saw this board was post that Garner was a known dog fighter and while he doesn't fight in person, he has openly admitted to having people fight dogs for him. I would NEVER by a dog from some that does that! Yea, I typed post that you guys may have not liked, but thats my opinions. Don't judge until you acutally know me!


----------



## Sadie

MISSAPBT said:


> I like richards strattons veiws on man biters. Keep one if you must, but take care if you do.


I like that  I know one thing unless it's reincarnated from the past I am going to have to pass on man eater's it would get boring after awhile throwing them a steak everyday and not being able to at least pet the little sh**t on the head once in a while LOL.:roll:


----------



## MISSAPBT

BTPB said:


> But none of you know me, I'm new here... I can post up pictures of puppys a APBT that we do have named jazz.. All I did when I saw this board was post that Garner was a known dog fighter and while he doesn't fight in person, he has openly admitted to having people fight dogs for him. I would NEVER by a dog from some that does that! Yea, I typed post that you guys may have not liked, but thats my opinions. Don't judge until you acutally know me!


Sorry i couldn't care less who you are, and I do not need to know who you are to know that you own bullies that class them as APBT just coz their paperes say, you breed dogs for no reason, none of your dogs have proven they are worthy for breeding.
I don't have a problem, you are young you have a closed mind about the sport. I was like you when i begun with this breed years ago.


----------



## BTPB

Why do they need to be worthy of breeding?? I don't want game dogs for a reason. WE breed them for shows and they go to show homes.


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## Oldskool Brent

BTPB said:


> But none of you know me, I'm new here... I can post up pictures of puppys a APBT that we do have named jazz.. All I did when I saw this board was post that Garner was a known dog fighter and while he doesn't fight in person, he has openly admitted to having people fight dogs for him. I would NEVER by a dog from some that does that! Yea, I typed post that you guys may have not liked, but thats my opinions. Don't judge until you acutally know me!


You seem to be doing the one judging. Instead of jumping in here and telling us how it is, you should sit back and learn. You don't even know what an American Pit Bull Terrier is yet, let alone how to breed them properly.


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## BTPB

Thats Because I don't breed them! WE breed American Bullies now. We fixed our APBT Female.


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## MISSAPBT

BTPB said:


> Why do they need to be worthy of breeding?? I don't want game dogs for a reason. WE breed them for shows and they go to show homes.


Well wtf are you breeding them for?! Do they do well in the shows where are there titles. Comon sence, only the best should reproduce.


----------



## Sadie

BTPB said:


> But none of you know me, I'm new here... I can post up pictures of puppys a APBT that we do have named jazz.. All I did when I saw this board was post that Garner was a known dog fighter and while he doesn't fight in person, he has openly admitted to having people fight dogs for him. I would NEVER by a dog from some that does that! Yea, I typed post that you guys may have not liked, but thats my opinions. Don't judge until you acutally know me!


Your young you have a lot to learn kiddo! I hope you will stick around though. I think you will find out that the one's giving you some tough love now are not really bad people. We are passionate in preservation we all love these dogs regardless of our views. Sometimes to learn you have to be able to put pride and ego aside. It's easy to get comfortable when you have been doing things the wrong way for awhile. If you take the time to really look around this forum and get to know some of the breeder's who have been doing this longer than you and your mother you might be surprised to learn something new that will benefit you and your dogs in the long run. You can love your animal take the best care of them have the best intentions for them that does not mean they are Quality animals that should be bred. There is a difference between breeding Quality over Quantity once you realize the difference between the two you that is what will make you a much better breeder it will also set you aside from the BYB and a typical peddler.


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## BTPB

Like I said before, We just started showing again. My dad was working out of state and my mom was in school for nurseing. So it was hard to get to shows at the time. When they get titles I will make sure you are the first to know! Ok how does that sound to you?


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## MISSAPBT

BTPB said:


> Like I said before, We just started showing again. My dad was working out of state and my mom was in school for nurseing. So it was hard to get to shows at the time. When they get titles I will make sure you are the first to know! Ok how does that sound to you?


No need to have that attitude. Sorry if i come off as blunt but that is just me, like Sadie said stick around. Its amasing how much you need to know before you realise how little you know, ive been in this breed for a long time and have never bred a dog


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## Oldskool Brent

I have 1 rule concerning Bullies: Don't call them Pit Bulls

You do that, I'll keep my "tough love" to myself.


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## BTPB

Well what you said was kind of rude. I don't appreciate being talked to like that. I'm gonna have a attitude if someones gonna talk to me like that. Zeus is old enough to were he can get points now in the ABKC and when the UKC premiere comes back to Kalamazoo next year then he will be going there too. We're pretty confident that Zeus will be championed out.


----------



## aus_staffy

BTPB said:


> lol.... oh ok, Well I was replying to the post from SARGEnNIKITA. She doesn't know me and what I stand for, I know I still need to learn more about them. But I do know more than most 18 year olds do. Sorry I missed typed the last one that I put up yesterday! *We register our dogs through UKC and ADBA as American Pit Bull Terriers because they don't recognize American Bullys as a different breed. They still recognize them as a APBT. And ABKC does AM. Bully.* But don't tell me that I shouldn't or my mom shouldn't be breeding anything. You don't know me or my family!


That's a better way of wording it. You're getting closer.


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## william williamson

BTPB said:


> Why do they need to be worthy of breeding?? I don't want game dogs for a reason. WE breed them for shows and they go to show homes.


you've got to be F'in kidding me.
this statement makes it clear that you and anyone associated,related,or intertwined to you are using the moniker to breed for nothing more than A personal agenda.
theirs no soundness to that dog in the pictures,it's sloppy and unfit to breed.
these folks have been trying to be nice to you.
I'm sorry you didn't take the hint.
theirs an old sayin,it's one thing to be a fool,it's another to open your mouth and prove them right.
people line breed,study descendantry,hunt hi and low for right dogs,and you stick lousy bitches with that pig you've got.
do the industry a favor,fix your dogs,and save rescues from dogs that your ilk supply them with,unwantingly.
I don't care how old you are theirs no wisdom in any of your rantings.
as stated whats worse than your closed mind is that your atrosciously wrong,yet flounder to prove your right.
God,I don't think even growing up will benefit you.
I didn't wast to wade in,you'd have been alright had you not made this last diabolical statement.


----------



## BTPB

This is Jazz x Harley-


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## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> Why do they need to be worthy of breeding?? I don't want game dogs for a reason. WE breed them for shows and they go to show homes.


Actually I am one of the lighter "tough love" people on here... But statements like this tell me you do not need to be breeding ANYTHING...

If you wanna know why I do not need to know you personally to say that you shouldn't breed nor should anyone around you it's because ONE- you have made many statements in this thread alone that tell me you have a lot to learn... SECOND I work in rescue and I watch hundreds of bully breeds get killed each year.... I am one of those people that believe that only certain kennels should breed and you are not one of them... I am glad you only have one litter a year that's great... But did you know that in most cases only one pup out of each litter you produce will find a forever loving home? The rest will be killed in a shelter or fought to death by some punk trying to be a dogman or beat to death by some nuttiest with an attitude or worse be bred to death... It's sad but it's the truth... That is why many game trait breeders only sell to other breeders or a select few in the public...

You, as an owner or breeder whatever of this breed need to learn one thing first... And that is to be open minded and willing to listen because no matter how much you know about this breed you will never know it all...


----------



## BTPB

Seriously?? I put in here before what we breed for! did you not read it. I was talking about the titles!


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Sorry nuttiest should have been butthead... iPhone autocorrect gotta love it


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Yes your dogs should be titled to be worthy of breeding no matte what it's in CONFORMATION OR GAME OR WEIGHT PULL OR DOCK DIVING OR ANYTHING... titled does not mean fought and won


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## American_Pit13

This will end here. You guys do realize this is a breeders daughter. Educate. Let her be here on the forum with out this hassle and learn without people trying to smother her with the knowledge 


BTPB I would not go flashing around that you guys breed as it will start arguments. Your mother may tell you those are show quality dogs but they are not. They are out of standard for APBT's and are ok for American Bullies. 

If you guys are showing and competing fine. I hope you guys have fun as that what dog sports should be about. 

Please stick around read the forum and see for your self what show dogs should look like for which registries and learn conformation for your own.


----------



## BTPB

OK enough is enough! I am the mother of the girl you are all bashing all over. Give me a break - she is young and YES has made statements without thinking about what she put - but does not deserve to be treated the way some of you are treating her!

First of all: I personally Show our dogs in ABKC (for the AM.Bully's) and UKC (for the APBT) - if you need to know who is the one making ANY and ALL decisions it would be me - not my daughter. She has made statements without all the facts behind them - yes- a honest mistake for a young person to make. Should a dog be worthy of breeding before breeding them - YES. A dog that does not fit within the registries breed standards should not be bred. When breeding you are to breed to improve the pups that are produced. It is not about making money - it was never meant to be.

What I am saying is: just because a young person has a passion and is against the people on here that fight their dogs - that does not mean she is stupid or she deserves to be treated like: William Williamson just treated her. Who is the grown up here. Are you seriously telling me you feel it is ok to speak to a young person like that? You arrogant pompous jerk! If you want to come at some one - take on a grown adult - maybe even someone close to your age - BUT don't bash all over a young person because of her lack of knowledge but large passion for a breed!

As long as I know the truth about what I do at BTPB - it does not matter to me what you think I am doing - William. Act like a grown adult and stop attacking a child!


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## junkyard

Spoken like a true Mod, nicely done.

There is no educating someone who knows all.


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## Kayo45

Oldskool Brent said:


> All I can say is that if I can't pet the parents, I don't want the pups. I don't know any stats, but what I do know is there's plenty of human loving pits that were/are great, so there is no human aggressive dog worth taking the risk on. Bobby Peru is the known HA dog on Garner's lot right now, and he's a good looking dog, but look at Rusty, that dog looks like he could bite through a tank and he loves people, so Peru isn't a risk I would take.


IMO bobby is bred better and Bobby wasnt always ha and it hasnt shown up in his kids either(not that I know of anyway). There is a reason why Bobby doesnt like strangers anymore.


----------



## BTPB

This is the real owner of BTPB: Thank you for stepping in here. I am just now aware of this whole situation and have just posted something regarding it. I know full well the difference between the AM. Bully and the APBT. My daughter however, is just learning - but does not deserve to be bashed all over by grown adults.


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## BTPB

And in addition - MY AM. Bully's ARE within standard for the Am Bully - and are the dogs that are shown. there is a difference between both breeds and I am aware of the differences. I know what a show quality - in breed standard dog is. Did anyone on here hear me say ALL of our dogs were show quality - NO they did not. Understand that the words of a young person are exactly that - the words of a young person - some one who is still learning about BOTH breeds.


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## Sadie

To the mother of BTPB is your daughter under the age of 18? If so you should have her account set up as a child member we have a few great kids here. If you PM redog the Admin of this site he can fix her account so that people know that she is a child. Just a thought I don't know if your going to post here as well if so maybe we could set up a second account for her that she can use as her own.


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

BTPB said:


> OK enough is enough! I am the mother of the girl you are all bashing all over. Give me a break - she is young and YES has made statements without thinking about what she put - but does not deserve to be treated the way some of you are treating her!
> 
> First of all: I personally Show our dogs in ABKC (for the AM.Bully's) and UKC (for the APBT) - if you need to know who is the one making ANY and ALL decisions it would be me - not my daughter. She has made statements without all the facts behind them - yes- a honest mistake for a young person to make. Should a dog be worthy of breeding before breeding them - YES. A dog that does not fit within the registries breed standards should not be bred. When breeding you are to breed to improve the pups that are produced. It is not about making money - it was never meant to be.
> 
> What I am saying is: *just because a young person has a passion and is against the people on here that fight their dogs *- that does not mean she is stupid or she deserves to be treated like: William Williamson just treated her. Who is the grown up here. Are you seriously telling me you feel it is ok to speak to a young person like that? You arrogant pompous jerk! If you want to come at some one - take on a grown adult - maybe even someone close to your age - BUT don't bash all over a young person because of her lack of knowledge but large passion for a breed!
> 
> As long as I know the truth about what I do at BTPB - it does not matter to me what you think I am doing - William. Act like a grown adult and stop attacking a child!


Well I do not believe that anyone here stated that they fight their dogs... I believe what was stated is that (and I am speaking for myself) while I understand and acknowledge and respect where my dogs came from and what they are I do not agree with current age thugs trying to fight dogs...

William can be harsh at times but in all reality before someone who comes from a breeding backround (whether I think its right or not) starts talking about everything they do not know maybe they should learn to listen...

As a young person who is obviously passionate about both breeds (Am Bully and American Pit Bull Terriers) we all learn at one time or another that we do not know all and should learn that with any bully breed the best lesson to learn is to open minded...

While I do not think a child should be bashed your daughter is not a child and has proven that she only repeats what she hears... Typical for her age... On the same note she should learn rather than argue her very incorrect statements...

I think you have pretty dogs but in my eyes they are not breeding quality however I cannot control you or your child so I will leave it at that...


----------



## junkyard

Whoa mum you need to hit the brakes a little there. I understand where you are coming from but you have gone too far on your very first post. 
You just claimed that people on here fight their dogs.
People who you know nothing about other than the posts on this forum.

Just because i want a dog who fits its real standard of old it doesnt mean i instantly fight my dogs, and i am highly offended that as someone who owns a apbt you would be ignorant enough to make that statement.
Just because a "show" dog has a standard it does not mean its healthy a show dog is like a car that someone has built and never ever driven, with no refinment whatsoever the dog is useless at any real "job" especialy the one it was originally supose to do.


So if you own an APBT you obviously fight your dogs too?

I Aplaud you for defending your daughter, but making such claims as that show true ignorance.


----------



## william williamson

ya'll owe me* BIG*
I told you momma was comin,I looked into my folicalized crystal ball and saw her looming.


----------



## American_Pit13

Sadie said:


> To the mother of BTPB is your daughter under the age of 18? If so you should have her account set up as a child member we have a few great kids here. If you PM redog the Admin of this site he can fix her account so that people know that she is a child. Just a thought I don't know if your going to post here as well if so maybe we could set up a second account for her that she can use as her own.


Dave is already adding her title as a child member. We do hope she will stay here.


----------



## Sadie

To Piggy back up on what Junkyard is saying what we were trying to explain to your daughter was that there are some of us here who believe the breed should be upheld to the original standard for which they were created. I believe If you go back and read my posts you will see that I stated just because I or other's will not personally fight our dogs doesn't mean we don't believe in preservation. If you have an understanding of what these dogs were bred to do than you would understand my position you can't uphold a breed to the standard if your remove their purpose. It would no longer be the same breed. Which is what most of us were saying and trying to explain to your daughter. Gameness is the virtue of the APBT that separates them from any other breed of dog. Know one here is saying we fight our animals rather we support preservation of the breed.


----------



## BTPB

My post was not referring to all of you fighting your dogs. It was simply her passion against people who fight their dogs. It was not meant to nor was it pointing a finger at anyone in this forum.


----------



## william williamson

BTPB said:


> As long as I know the truth about what I do at BTPB - it does not matter to me what you think I am doing - William. Act like a grown adult and stop attacking a child!


I got my first "real" pit at 19,it was less than a yerar and I had accumulated alot of info,didn't have the "momma" with all her brains,or the net to just punch in some letters and get some answers.
I drove to yards in central florida,Georgia,S. and N Carolina.
in that year I had put on my yard from some of the top breeders real pit bull blood,quality game dogs and then A few that went on to title and be box worthy.
we live in A time of information.and your going to gank on me?
boo frickin hoo.
I'm not going to have anything but disdain for someone who has all this at their beck and call,look at what I did and the acrual. expense monetarily to do it.
if anything she should,or anyone else be A walking inventory.
when I come to the board it's with dust covered info from 33 years of doing it.I come from the time when the books that are so prized were written.
and was fortunate enough to meet and know many if not all the guys from the south eastern US.

ps theirs no such thing as an 18 year old child.
they drive drink smoke cigs,pop out kids and any thing else they wish.unless of course they're sheltered from the real world.you can't have them both.


----------



## junkyard

"people on here that fight their dogs"

This was taken from your post Mom.


----------



## BTPB

Once again William it shows your ignorance, you know nothing about my 18 year old daughter or her situation. So I don't need you to tell me whether my 18 year old needs her mother to defend her or not. Because as her mom, I do know everything about her.


----------



## Sadie

So back to the Garner dogs .... Anyone here have anything off Peru? Dday I know you were thinking about getting something from Garner would you get a pup off peru even though he is supposed to he HA?


----------



## Kayo45

Sadie said:


> So back to the Garner dogs .... Anyone here have anything of Peru?


I dont have anything off him but I have heard he is throwing some good ones out.


----------



## Sadie

I was looking at some of his recent litter's

For those of you that don't know this is Peru

Garner's Bobby Peru


----------



## BTPB

Once again, Not referring to people in this forum right now that were in this discussion. My daughter has issues with the people on this site who have point blank told her that they support dog fighting and agree with it. That is what I was referring to.


----------



## American_Pit13

No one has said anything to you since your last post. You do not have to continue with multiple replies without anyone talking back to you. We are trying to get this thread back on dogs and off this side squabble.


----------



## william williamson

Sadie said:


> So back to the Garner dogs .... Anyone here have anything of Peru?


no,A while back I saw him,never thought to google tom.that dog looks like that other old hard mouth dog,and some of the other dogs we drooled over.


----------



## Kayo45

Sadie said:


> I was looking at some of his recent litter's
> 
> For those of you that don't know this is Peru
> 
> Garner's Bobby Peru


I asked tg if he had what i was looking for off of Bobby but he didnt, which sucks because it was the best litter he had off Peru at the moment

This is the one I am reffering to

Bobby Peru x Miss Skull II Pups

Im goin back to tg's in a few days to get something


----------



## Sadie

Kayo45 said:


> I asked tg if he had what i was looking for off of Bobby but he didnt, which sucks because it was the best litter he had off Peru at the moment
> 
> This is the one I am reffering to
> 
> Bobby Peru x Miss Skull II Pups
> 
> Im goin back to tg's in a few days to get something


Nice !!! Yeah I bet those are going to be some good little bulldogs. I am really starting to take liking to the black dogs LOL ... Will TG let you visit his yard by appointment? I might want to take a trip up to his yard. If I got something off him I wouldn't want it shipped anyway I would want to pick it up myself.


----------



## Kayo45

Sadie said:


> Nice !!! Yeah I bet those are going to be some good little bulldogs. I am really starting to take liking to the black dogs LOL ... Will TG let you visit his yard by appointment? I might want to take a trip up to his yard. If I got something off him I wouldn't want it shipped anyway I would want to pick it up myself.


Yea just give him a call and you can ask about what he has or set up a yard visit. Nice guy with alot of knowledge and an incredibly clean yard. Im happy with what I got off him which is why im goin back lol.


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## Sadie

That's good to know I looked at his yard video he has up on youtube don't know if anyone here has seen it but I will post it for anyone who cares LOL. I really like his pens/kennels only thing is they look like they don't have any roofs??? I know them dogs could get out of there without the roofs covering them maybe it's just the video but I hope there are roofs covering them. LOL His dogs look well taken care of


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## Kayo45

Here's another vid of Bobby and Miss Skull II






This is a vid on his kennel set up


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## Sadie

Thanks for posting these haven't seen these 2 yet!!!


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## Kayo45

No problem


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## dday

Sadie said:


> So back to the Garner dogs .... Anyone here have anything off Peru? Dday I know you were thinking about getting something from Garner would you get a pup off peru even though he is supposed to he HA?


Hello Sadie, No I probably would not if he is HA. I do not know if I will get a pup from TG in the future or not. But if I was, it most likely would be off Dynomite. In my opinion, "everything a bull dog should be." 
Listen, I know I have a very radical opinion about never breeding HA bull dogs.
But my opinion is only based on what I feel is best for the breed in the future. I love the dogs of the past, weather HA or not. And I would not change a thing about their history, even if I could. "Except for maybe Zebo." I just don't want to wake up some day, and the only true "American Pit Bull Terriers" are no longer in America! My brother owned a HA female bull dog many years ago. And we made excuses for her way to long. And I have seen what they are capable of. Every bull dog "I" have personally owned, I could literally pull a fresh steak bone out of their mouth. And they will just wait until I give it back. A real bull dog has the most stable temperament of any dog in existence. I just would like to keep it that way.


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## william williamson

dday said:


> Hello Sadie, No I probably would not if he is HA. I do not know if I will get a pup from TG in the future or not. But if I was, it most likely would be off Dynomite. In my opinion, "everything a bull dog should be."
> Listen, I know I have a very radical opinion about never breeding HA bull dogs.
> But my opinion is only based on what I feel is best for the breed in the future. I love the dogs of the past, weather HA or not. And I would not change a thing about their history, even if I could. "Except for maybe Zebo." I just don't want to wake up some day, and the only true "American Pit Bull Terriers" are no longer in America! My brother owned a HA female bull dog many years ago. And we made excuses for her way to long. And I have seen what they are capable of. Every bull dog "I" have personally owned, I could literally pull a fresh steak bone out of their mouth. And they will just wait until I give it back. A real bull dog has the most stable temperament of any dog in existence. I just would like to keep it that way.


you aren't alone.


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## BTPB

CORRECTION FROM THE owner of BTPB:

I do not represent any of my AM. Bullies as APBT's - A FYI for any one who think I do! When - (key word WHEN) I breed my Am .Bully's - which will be AFTER they have finished in the ABKC show ring - the litter WILL be registered via ABKC as Am. Bully's - I DO NOT represent my Am. Bully's as APBT's - which is why I ONLY SHOW Am. Bully's at ABKC shows. First and foremost: I AGREE the APBT and the Am. Bully are 2 separate breeds and I promote that fact!

My daughter completely mis-spoke when saying I register my AM. Bully's as Am .Bully's through UKC and ADBA - those registries DO NOT recognize the Am. Bully as of right now - A fact I am fully aware of. If any of you have concerns or issues regarding what I do and what I represent my dogs as: Feel free to email me personally at [email protected] )


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## MISSAPBT

Thank you, glad that you don't refer them as apbt, where would she get the idea they are apbts though?


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## BTPB

MISSAPBT: It's not that she thinks our AM. Bully's are APBT's - she is still learning about the differences between the 2 breeds. She is still learning about the registries and which ones register which breeds. Heck - my Am. Bully's are not even registered via ADBA and they never will be. On the other hand - you know just as well as I do that UKC registers the AM. Bully's as APBT's because they have not separated the 2 breeds from each other yet ( something I hope they will soon do). ABKC registers them as Am. Bully's. When I breed a AM. Bully litter - they will be registered via ABKC - because that is where they belong. Do I agree with dogs being registered as APBT with UKC - when they are AM. Bully's - NO. But until they separate the breeds - that is what is happening. I think the important thing here is this: I don't attempt to represent the AM. Bully as APBT's. I show my AM. Bully's at ABKC dog shows - where they should be shown. I do the right thing and I have never once told someone my AM. Bully's were APBT's. In a nut shell: American Bully's are Am. bully's and APBT's are APBT's - I know the difference )

I will be the 1st one to say that my kids have a huge passion for BOTH breeds. However, I will also be the 1st one to say that my daughter "jumps fast" and does not always realize what she is saying and the way she has said it. She has a HUGE passion for trying to make the world view BOTH breeds better and goes about attempting to make this happen the best way she can figure out how.

I am ALWAYS working with our dogs and my kids - to teach them the differences between the breeds. To teach them how to show the APBT verses the Am. Bully. I know she has said things in this forum that have made people look at her in a negative light and to look at my kennel in a negative light: HOWEVER - I know first hand what I do and don't do here with our dogs. I know first hand the knowledge that I have. I also know first hand - that you can never learn enough. I am trying to teach my kids to be open minded regarding BOTH breeds and various people that own the breeds. 

However - the one thing we all feel extremely strong about it Dog Fighting. I have GREAT respect for the original APBT and the "original game bred lines" - because without those very lines and those very dogs - I would not have the dogs I have owned and love. My issue lies not with the game lines, or the game line breeder - but falls with the owners that openly admit they fight their dogs, the owners that openly state they have human aggressive dogs and think it is ok. The APBT was never meant to be human aggressive - they were bred, even for game lines - to be human tolerant. Back in the day - human aggressive dogs were not tolerated and were "put down" because it was highly frowned upon, even in the "fight ring world" - owners needed to be able to get in the middle of dogs to separate them. 

See- I do know where the APBT originated and I do know the history behind the game bred lines as well. Just because I choose not to own game bred - does not mean that I don't have respect for where these dogs came from. I ask that you all understand my daughter is young, she is just learning and she is very passionate regarding the breeds. I understand she make posts that do not always have 100% accuracy - but she does not do this intentionally.

Believe me - I am the first one that tells my children they can never learn enough regarding everything in life - including the APBT and the AM. Bully.


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## Black Label Romo

BTPB said:


> MISSAPBT: It's not that she thinks our AM. Bully's are APBT's - she is still learning about the differences between the 2 breeds. She is still learning about the registries and which ones register which breeds. Heck - my Am. Bully's are not even registered via ADBA and they never will be. On the other hand - you know just as well as I do that UKC registers the AM. Bully's as APBT's because they have not separated the 2 breeds from each other yet ( something I hope they will soon do). ABKC registers them as Am. Bully's. When I breed a AM. Bully litter - they will be registered via ABKC - because that is where they belong. Do I agree with dogs being registered as APBT with UKC - when they are AM. Bully's - NO. But until they separate the breeds - that is what is happening. I think the important thing here is this: I don't attempt to represent the AM. Bully as APBT's. I show my AM. Bully's at ABKC dog shows - where they should be shown. I do the right thing and I have never once told someone my AM. Bully's were APBT's. In a nut shell: American Bully's are Am. bully's and APBT's are APBT's - I know the difference )
> 
> I will be the 1st one to say that my kids have a huge passion for BOTH breeds. However, I will also be the 1st one to say that my daughter "jumps fast" and does not always realize what she is saying and the way she has said it. She has a HUGE passion for trying to make the world view BOTH breeds better and goes about attempting to make this happen the best way she can figure out how.
> 
> I am ALWAYS working with our dogs and my kids - to teach them the differences between the breeds. To teach them how to show the APBT verses the Am. Bully. I know she has said things in this forum that have made people look at her in a negative light and to look at my kennel in a negative light: HOWEVER - I know first hand what I do and don't do here with our dogs. I know first hand the knowledge that I have. I also know first hand - that you can never learn enough. I am trying to teach my kids to be open minded regarding BOTH breeds and various people that own the breeds.
> 
> However - the one thing we all feel extremely strong about it Dog Fighting. I have GREAT respect for the original APBT and the "original game bred lines" - because without those very lines and those very dogs - I would not have the dogs I have owned and love. My issue lies not with the game lines, or the game line breeder - but falls with the owners that openly admit they fight their dogs, the owners that openly state they have human aggressive dogs and think it is ok. The APBT was never meant to be human aggressive - they were bred, even for game lines - to be human tolerant. Back in the day - human aggressive dogs were not tolerated and were "put down" because it was highly frowned upon, even in the "fight ring world" - owners needed to be able to get in the middle of dogs to separate them.
> 
> See- I do know where the APBT originated and I do know the history behind the game bred lines as well. Just because I choose not to own game bred - does not mean that I don't have respect for where these dogs came from. I ask that you all understand my daughter is young, she is just learning and she is very passionate regarding the breeds. I understand she make posts that do not always have 100% accuracy - but she does not do this intentionally.
> 
> Believe me - I am the first one that tells my children they can never learn enough regarding everything in life - including the APBT and the AM. Bully.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## SARGEnNIKITA

I'm glad BTPB got that off her chest but when did we go back to that subject?


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## Sadie

BTPB said:


> MISSAPBT: It's not that she thinks our AM. Bully's are APBT's - she is still learning about the differences between the 2 breeds. She is still learning about the registries and which ones register which breeds. Heck - my Am. Bully's are not even registered via ADBA and they never will be. On the other hand - you know just as well as I do that UKC registers the AM. Bully's as APBT's because they have not separated the 2 breeds from each other yet ( something I hope they will soon do). ABKC registers them as Am. Bully's. When I breed a AM. Bully litter - they will be registered via ABKC - because that is where they belong. Do I agree with dogs being registered as APBT with UKC - when they are AM. Bully's - NO. But until they separate the breeds - that is what is happening. I think the important thing here is this: I don't attempt to represent the AM. Bully as APBT's. I show my AM. Bully's at ABKC dog shows - where they should be shown. I do the right thing and I have never once told someone my AM. Bully's were APBT's. In a nut shell: American Bully's are Am. bully's and APBT's are APBT's - I know the difference )
> 
> I will be the 1st one to say that my kids have a huge passion for BOTH breeds. However, I will also be the 1st one to say that my daughter "jumps fast" and does not always realize what she is saying and the way she has said it. She has a HUGE passion for trying to make the world view BOTH breeds better and goes about attempting to make this happen the best way she can figure out how.
> 
> I am ALWAYS working with our dogs and my kids - to teach them the differences between the breeds. To teach them how to show the APBT verses the Am. Bully. I know she has said things in this forum that have made people look at her in a negative light and to look at my kennel in a negative light: HOWEVER - I know first hand what I do and don't do here with our dogs. I know first hand the knowledge that I have. I also know first hand - that you can never learn enough. I am trying to teach my kids to be open minded regarding BOTH breeds and various people that own the breeds.
> 
> However - the one thing we all feel extremely strong about it Dog Fighting. I have GREAT respect for the original APBT and the "original game bred lines" - because without those very lines and those very dogs - I would not have the dogs I have owned and love. My issue lies not with the game lines, or the game line breeder - but falls with the owners that openly admit they fight their dogs, the owners that openly state they have human aggressive dogs and think it is ok. The APBT was never meant to be human aggressive - they were bred, even for game lines - to be human tolerant. Back in the day - human aggressive dogs were not tolerated and were "put down" because it was highly frowned upon, even in the "fight ring world" - owners needed to be able to get in the middle of dogs to separate them.
> 
> See- I do know where the APBT originated and I do know the history behind the game bred lines as well. Just because I choose not to own game bred - does not mean that I don't have respect for where these dogs came from. I ask that you all understand my daughter is young, she is just learning and she is very passionate regarding the breeds. I understand she make posts that do not always have 100% accuracy - but she does not do this intentionally.
> 
> Believe me - I am the first one that tells my children they can never learn enough regarding everything in life - including the APBT and the AM. Bully.


Welcome to the forum  ... I am sure now that we all know your daughter is young and just beginning in the breed we will do our best to help educate her. We are all learning it's great to be passionate about something you love. Hopefully both of you can stick around this is a very great forum for new comer's to the breed to get acquainted with both the Game Dog/APBT, Amstaff, and the American Bully. We have very knowledgable people on this forum who own all of these breeds. We also have a lot of show/working breeder's here. So kick your shoe's off and have a look around.


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## gamer

> MISSAPBT: It's not that she thinks our AM. Bully's are APBT's - she is still learning about the differences between the 2 breeds. She is still learning about the registries and which ones register which breeds. Heck - my Am. Bully's are not even registered via ADBA and they never will be. *On the other hand - you know just as well as I do that UKC registers the AM. Bully's as APBT's because they have not separated the 2 breeds from each other yet *( something I hope they will soon do). ABKC registers them as Am. Bully's. When I breed a AM. Bully litter - they will be registered via ABKC - because that is where they belong. Do I agree with dogs being registered as APBT with UKC - when they are AM. Bully's - NO. But until they separate the breeds - that is what is happening. I think the important thing here is this: I don't attempt to represent the AM. Bully as APBT's. I show my AM. Bully's at ABKC dog shows - where they should be shown. I do the right thing and I have never once told someone my AM. Bully's were APBT's. In a nut shell: American Bully's are Am. bully's and APBT's are APBT's - I know the difference )


That is because no one will admit they are mixed therefore a new and different breed.


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## BTPBMom

I AGREE 100%. I see owners of AM. Bully's ALL the time trying to say they are not "mixed" - WELL - where do they think the AM. Bully originated from????

Many breeds have been started by crossing other breeds together. My personal opinion is this: Now that the AM. Bully here - the UKC should completely separate them from the APBT. Again, this is my personal opinion. I also feel like owners of the Am. Bully need to represent the breed for what they are: The American Bully - not the APBT.


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## TheStunnah

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> I'm glad BTPB got that off her chest but when did we go back to that subject?


*Umm i was just thinking that aswell*...Not That iv taken part in the posting but iv been reading along (some of the way) lol


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## Sadie

TheStunnah said:


> *Umm i was just thinking that aswell*...Not That iv taken part in the posting but iv been reading along (some of the way) lol


Yeah this whole thread is about a few different things LOL ... it's pretty scatter bred LOL from start to finish .. It started off as a Garner thread and went a whole different direction.


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## Padlock

here are some real bulldogs straight from tg kennels.
enjoy!!

Virtualpedigree
Virtualpedigree

notice ch. bobby peru. :clap:


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## Padlock




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## Lvis

Sadie said:


> William if they let the pup go home at just 5 weeks old and told them it was a garner pit without any pedigree and the dog is only UKC registered that screams BYB peddling. But either way you and your pup have come to the right place to learn and educate yourself about the breed.


x2 i was thinking the same thing when i read the first post, sounds suspect


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## eddy

you know i been on this site for almost a year.you can get alot of good info here, but i see alot of people here talking real negative and disrespectful if your going to give a young kid advise do that dont try to down grade him and talk to him like that like you mister know it all cause on low you probably know just as much as him.so if your going to give him advise do that dont under mind the kid and talk negative to him this is a place for advise not criticism.thats one thing i notice here,to much criticism and negativity and less good advise.and im not saying everyone just some people


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Well eddy I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this site is much friendlier than most other bully sites... Just saying...

I am not even sure which convo you are talking about in this thread as there were many if memory serves me right...


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## Sadie

Sarge you must have missed the other thread LOL


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## SARGEnNIKITA

I must have?????? I am lost now...


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## junkyard

Eddy this forum is like church compared to many others.


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## MISSAPBT

Its called opinions, if we all had the same one it would be a hell of a boring world. get used to it Eddy


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## Sadie

What other people can have opinions? And here I thought all along only my opinion mattered LOL  JK


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## rob32

BTPB said:


> MISSAPBT: It's not that she thinks our AM. Bully's are APBT's - she is still learning about the differences between the 2 breeds. She is still learning about the registries and which ones register which breeds. Heck - my Am. Bully's are not even registered via ADBA and they never will be. On the other hand - you know just as well as I do that UKC registers the AM. Bully's as APBT's because they have not separated the 2 breeds from each other yet ( something I hope they will soon do). ABKC registers them as Am. Bully's. When I breed a AM. Bully litter - they will be registered via ABKC - because that is where they belong. Do I agree with dogs being registered as APBT with UKC - when they are AM. Bully's - NO. But until they separate the breeds - that is what is happening. I think the important thing here is this: I don't attempt to represent the AM. Bully as APBT's. I show my AM. Bully's at ABKC dog shows - where they should be shown. I do the right thing and I have never once told someone my AM. Bully's were APBT's. In a nut shell: American Bully's are Am. bully's and APBT's are APBT's - I know the difference )
> 
> I will be the 1st one to say that my kids have a huge passion for BOTH breeds. However, I will also be the 1st one to say that my daughter "jumps fast" and does not always realize what she is saying and the way she has said it. She has a HUGE passion for trying to make the world view BOTH breeds better and goes about attempting to make this happen the best way she can figure out how.
> 
> I am ALWAYS working with our dogs and my kids - to teach them the differences between the breeds. To teach them how to show the APBT verses the Am. Bully. I know she has said things in this forum that have made people look at her in a negative light and to look at my kennel in a negative light: HOWEVER - I know first hand what I do and don't do here with our dogs. I know first hand the knowledge that I have. I also know first hand - that you can never learn enough. I am trying to teach my kids to be open minded regarding BOTH breeds and various people that own the breeds.
> 
> However - the one thing we all feel extremely strong about it Dog Fighting. I have GREAT respect for the original APBT and the "original game bred lines" - because without those very lines and those very dogs - I would not have the dogs I have owned and love. My issue lies not with the game lines, or the game line breeder - but falls with the owners that openly admit they fight their dogs, the owners that openly state they have human aggressive dogs and think it is ok. The APBT was never meant to be human aggressive - they were bred, even for game lines - to be human tolerant. Back in the day - human aggressive dogs were not tolerated and were "put down" because it was highly frowned upon, even in the "fight ring world" - owners needed to be able to get in the middle of dogs to separate them.
> 
> See- I do know where the APBT originated and I do know the history behind the game bred lines as well. Just because I choose not to own game bred - does not mean that I don't have respect for where these dogs came from. I ask that you all understand my daughter is young, she is just learning and she is very passionate regarding the breeds. I understand she make posts that do not always have 100% accuracy - but she does not do this intentionally.
> 
> Believe me - I am the first one that tells my children they can never learn enough regarding everything in life - including the APBT and the AM. Bully.


if you think that a quality match dog would be put down because he was HA you would be incorrect. also, many of the "greats" in the history of the APBT have had, to some degree, aggressiveness towards people. the fact is, gameness was the most sought after trait in the APBT. if a dog were game, just about anything else would be overlooked.


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## rob32

Sadie said:


> So back to the Garner dogs .... Anyone here have anything off Peru? Dday I know you were thinking about getting something from Garner would you get a pup off peru even though he is supposed to he HA?


i dont know about anyone else here but i would definitely get a dog off bobby, bobby is a real bulldog. bobby doesnt like strangers and according to garner, that stems from a bad experience that bobby had. if i were you and youre interested in bobby or his pups, call TG. hes a nice guy and doesnt mind answering questions.


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## meno222

Sadie said:


> So back to the Garner dogs .... Anyone here have anything off Peru? Dday I know you were thinking about getting something from Garner would you get a pup off peru even though he is supposed to he HA?


this little guy is hot.only six months and showing high work ethics.and its hot already.he will try to get at older dogs. so we have to be very carefull. he could easily get hurt.. here is his ped.
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [305482] :: GARNER'S CANELO
check him out in the slat mill.(we are not working him. just getting him used to it.)




he would run that slat all day if it was up to him.


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## Rudy4747

^^^ off subject but Where did you get the mill it nice and smooth?


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## Sadie

meno222 said:


> this little guy is hot.only six months and showing high work ethics.and its hot already.he will try to get at older dogs. so we have to be very carefull. he could easily get hurt.. here is his ped.
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [305482] :: GARNER'S CANELO
> check him out in the slat mill.(we are not working him. just getting him used to it.)
> YouTube - tres
> he would run that slat all day if it was up to him.


Nice meno! That is how you do it  Really good looking pup. TY for sharing the video .. I like the mill too:clap:


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## dday

Male and Female Pups are selling for $900

At Tom Garner Kennels we have produced more titled dogs and more satisfied customers in the past 15 years than any other breeding kennel anywhere in the world. The ideal APBT is defined in the breed standard to be completely people friendly, intelligent, stable, athletically superior and uncompromisingly game. Any breeding objective that deviates from these ideals is flawed and accepts the production of inferior animals. We breed to a standard, not for a particular purpose. We believe that faithfully breeding to a well reasoned set of ideals will ultimately better serve both man and dog.

Our program utilizes breeding stock that has been in our control for several generations so that we can verify that the gene pool we utilize is highly reliable at producing quality offspring. We begin with a superior gene pool, then we meet the environmental needs of our pups in an equally capable manner. Nursing bitches and pups receive the most scientifically advanced canine nutrition commercially available. We feed CNI's (Canine Nutrition International (CNI)) RF-1 and Nurture products. Most of our customers call within a couple of days of receiving their pups, asking, "What have you been feeding this pup?" The first several weeks pups bask in the warmth of heated whelping pads. At 4 weeks socialization begins with all pups getting generous daily handling and affection from the Garner kids. Pups raised in this manner always have a special bond with people, especially children. In today's world of the Pit Bull Inquisition, we must do all we can to ensure that our dogs are indeed Man's Best Friend!

To purchase a pup from us, you can make an appointment and visit us at our kennel to make your own selection, or we can ship to almost any major airport in the world. Pups from our frozen semen breedings from Frisco are no longer available. Shipping by air requires a health certificate which costs $50, which is paid by the buyer. We accept major credit cards. Foreign shipments often incur additional costs. All pups purchased from us have a 3 year replacement guarantee against genetically based health problems. We do screen our buyers. If we don't believe a dog will have a good life with you, we will not sell a dog to you. We abide by all federal, state and local laws and do not sell dogs for any illegal purposes.

Thank You, Tom Garner

Note: Male and Female Pups are selling for $900! Also, we offer volume discounts.

This thread has been dormant since the 18th. So I just knew everyone wanted more on TG! LOL
Well anyway, this is what he wrote on his December 2010 pups for sale web page.
I actually really like what he had to say about his breedings. I just hope he practices what he preaches.


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## dday

meno222 said:


> this little guy is hot.only six months and showing high work ethics.and its hot already.he will try to get at older dogs. so we have to be very carefull. he could easily get hurt.. here is his ped.
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [305482] :: GARNER'S CANELO
> check him out in the slat mill.(we are not working him. just getting him used to it.)
> YouTube - tres
> he would run that slat all day if it was up to him.


That is a GREAT looking pup! Buckskin with beautiful natural ears!


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