# Well Diva is all grown up now, and we've had an incident..advice?



## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

Hello,

Diva is just about to turn 1 year old, and what I was always aware could happen...did. I have a 7 yr old mix breed dog whom is 25% AmStaff and named Scooter. He is a very gentle soul, wouldn't harm a fly! Thus far, him and Diva have done EVERYTHING together, and gotten along excellent. I have however noticed from puppyhood that Diva is a resource guarder. The other night, my teenage son gave them each a carrot and then went downstairs. I was not home. Quite soon afterwards he heard them fighting, came upstairs and Diva had Scooter pinned on his back. My son tore them apart, and Diva latched on to Scooters neck. My son decided not to grab a break stick and used his hands to pry her mouth open, he picked her up, and put her outside. He called me because he noticed there was some bleeding, so I came home. When I got home, I let both dogs out...Diva immediately went after Scooter again (this was like 1.5 hours after they fought). I had to pry her mouth open and hold her back while my son put Scooter away. It ended in a vet visit for Scooter, who was close to needing stitches. He has a fairly deep puncture wound on his shoulder, one on the inside of his ear, and she grabbed his mouth pretty good because it was swollen, tore the gums inside, and the outside of his mouth is punctured too. He is healing up well, and I have kept them separated since (4 days now). 

So, my question is..where would you go from here? Since they really enjoyed each others company thus far, doing everything together, and the fight broke out due to a high value treat...I'm not sure if I should go straight to a crate and rotate type situation (I use bedrooms to separate, because they don't wreck things). It would be nice for them to continue to go for walks together, enjoy yard time, and supervised time in the home...BUT she obviously attacked him pretty seriously, it wasn't just one bite. I was debating getting a muzzle and just seeing how she acts towards him...waiting until after her spay, and she's healed maybe? I'll tell you one thing, they will never, ever be left out together when I'm not home. I do not want my kids having to bear the burden of tearing her off of him, Thankfully, Scooter does not fight back, so I only have to deal with Diva if a situation occurs. Would you test the waters and let them hang out a bit if you were me? So far she's been great with my cat and birds as well. And never a problem with other dogs or anything like that.

Thanks guys!


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

Did you see the whole event where Diva went after Scooter the second time when you put them out? What’s there a precipitating event or did she just go after him? Dogs don’t have memories like we do so after 1.5 he’s Diva wouldn’t be going after him over the carrot incident still. 

Obviously no matter what you do, these two should NEVER be left together unsupervised even for just a second. Also make sure you’re using break sticks. It’s never a good idea to use your hands to pry dogs mouths apart. It is true that bulldogs shouldn’t bite you, even in the heat of the moment, but there are always instances of redirection and them biting unintentionally. 

Without being there it’s so hard to say. Dogs
don’t need “friends” or necessarily enjoy social situations like people do so it’s not a situation where if you keep them separated they’re going to “miss” spending time together. Crate and rotate is the safest and best bet and everyone can still be healthy and happy with this arrangement. 

I’m sure that’s not necessarily what you wanted to hear but it’s the safest bet. If you choose to try them together again make sure you are CLOSELY watching body language so you can prevent an issue before it happens and separate them.

Spaying won’t have any affect unfortunately. 

Good luck and keep us posted. 


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

Crate and rotate from now on. No sense in risking either dog, or your wallet.


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

DynamicDuo said:


> Did you see the whole event where Diva went after Scooter the second time when you put them out? What's there a precipitating event or did she just go after him? Dogs don't have memories like we do so after 1.5 he's Diva wouldn't be going after him over the carrot incident still.
> 
> Obviously no matter what you do, these two should NEVER be left together unsupervised even for just a second. Also make sure you're using break sticks. It's never a good idea to use your hands to pry dogs mouths apart. It is true that bulldogs shouldn't bite you, even in the heat of the moment, but there are always instances of redirection and them biting unintentionally.
> 
> ...


The second time she went after him...he came up the stairs, she was a few feet away. She walked up to him, sniffed him (smelt blood I'm sure) and instantly grabbed him. Zero warning other than she wasn't wagging her tail like she normally would. I knew it was going to happen just a split second before it did. She didn't cause any damage with that bite, I had her off of him so quick.

Ever since that night, she wants to be everywhere he is...when I allow them to see each other through fencing, or with her on leash. She is wagging her tail. She has been extremely social up until this point. I kind of beg to differ about them not needing to be social...this dog always has been! Perhaps it's because I have gone out of my way to really, really socialize her. She is purebred AmStaff, I was hoping with training and socialization we may be able to curb DA issues. However, I do know that often times it is genetics. I just haven't seen it in her yet..and both of her parents are not DA.

Why do I want them to be together? Well, because I work full time. I have 3 kids, 2 dogs, a cat, and 3 birds (one is an African grey and very needy). I do not have time to take 2 dogs on 2 separate 1+ hour long walks every day...and they both need it. In the home, I am not finding it too difficult to keep them apart. I just want to kind of find a SAFE way to know if that was a one time incident..or if it will now be a habit because she got a taste of "fighting". I would hate to separate them for the rest of their lives if it was a one time thing. This is why I mentioned a muzzle. Maybe I can observe their body language, but then again, she's not use to a muzzle.

I have several break sticks. It was actually really easy to just open her mouth and pull her off. I am very use to handling dogs that are tense. I am a vet assistant. The reason I mentioned the fact that Diva is getting spayed is not because I thought it would change her behaviour..I'm trying to find out if giving these 2 dogs a couple of weeks to heal...then gradually testing the waters is a good idea or not. It sounds like you experienced bully breed owners are thinking...NOT *sighhhhhh*

Thank you for your helpful response btw. I appreciate it.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

DivaDavies said:


> The second time she went after him...he came up the stairs, she was a few feet away. She walked up to him, sniffed him (smelt blood I'm sure) and instantly grabbed him. Zero warning other than she wasn't wagging her tail like she normally would. I knew it was going to happen just a split second before it did. She didn't cause any damage with that bite, I had her off of him so quick.
> 
> The dogs won't typically give a warning before aggression. And smelling blood has nothing to do with it. They're dogs not sharks. Thankfully you were there and able to prevent more damage!
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you're going through this and I don't intend to sound mean or like I'm giving you a hard time. I just don't want to see anyone hurt, dog or human, and being honest about the truth and my perspective. I hope things work out. I really do.

PS - most of my response is in the quoted section. I tried to make the font different but couldn't from my phone!

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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

DynamicDuo said:


> I'm sorry you're going through this and I don't intend to sound mean or like I'm giving you a hard time. I just don't want to see anyone hurt, dog or human, and being honest about the truth and my perspective. I hope things work out. I really do.
> 
> PS - most of my response is in the quoted section. I tried to make the font different but couldn't from my phone!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL, I know they aren't sharks and attack at the scent of blood. I was thinking maybe it triggered her memory of the fight. She's a smart girl.

As far as her tail wagging...I'm definitely not misinterpreting it. I know her well enough by now. When she has gone after Scooter her tail is dead straight and her body is still. So yesterday, I kept her on a slip lead and let them get near each other. She immediately did the same stance she did the second time she went after Scooter. She kind of puts her head over his shoulders (being dominant). I pulled her away at that moment, one second later and she would have chomped him again, I'm sure of it.

Listen, as far as my having so many pets and kids...shit happens eh? If I have to get personal and explain, I will. My husband whom I have been with for 27 yrs decided to just walk out the door and dump everything on my plate without paying any support money until I finally nailed him in court last week. This forced me to to get a job (vet assistant which I love), take care of our 3 children, 6 pets, home and property, by myself literally 100% of the time, all while battling with him in court and through lawyers. I'm also taking a university level course to top it all off. I have zero help with any of this, no family near me, and the friends I have lead busy lives too. So I'm doing what I can, and I'm still doing it well. I'm sorry if I sounded selfish by wanting to find a convenient solution for myself, but come on..I am one person and can only do so much. I would NEVER EVER EVER consider giving up a pet. So don't even suggest it!

I have continued to keep them separated. I have tall fencing (ex-pen), and when I'm home I just stretch it right down the middle of the living room and kitchen (we have an open concept), I keep a dog on either side. Diva completely respects the fence..and if I use a baby gate in front of my bedroom door, she respects that too (I do shut the door when I'm not right there observing). She doesn't go after Scooter at all. If I put her on a leash, she behaves as well. It's weird...she only seems to react when she walks up to him and they are close enough to touch. Scooter is not an in your face type of dog at all, so I don't believe he is triggering her in any way. During our walk 2 nights ago (just me and her) she had an unleashed dog come right for her, it would not back off...Diva didn't do anything. She has passed by probably 20 dogs since she fought Scooter and she has zero reaction. She seems to ONLY have it in for him, and only when she goes right up to him. I can't figure it out..

Oh, and I lectured my son about the break stick..he's a 300 lb teenager, much bigger and stronger than me...and will do what he wants.

Here's a couple recent pics of the little miss badass...she grew up beautifully.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

DivaDavies said:


> LOL, I know they aren't sharks and attack at the scent of blood. I was thinking maybe it triggered her memory of the fight. She's a smart girl.
> 
> As far as her tail wagging...I'm definitely not misinterpreting it. I know her well enough by now. When she has gone after Scooter her tail is dead straight and her body is still. So yesterday, I kept her on a slip lead and let them get near each other. She immediately did the same stance she did the second time she went after Scooter. She kind of puts her head over his shoulders (being dominant). I pulled her away at that moment, one second later and she would have chomped him again, I'm sure of it.
> 
> ...


I never meant to offend you and if I did, I apologize. I didn't mean any judgement, only saying what I believe and do.

Listen, I get it. My (not soon enough to be ex) husband, whom I now know is a narcissist, threw me out of the house less than a year ago so he could move his crack loving, dog abusing, homeless, jobless girlfriend into my house - he literally moved her in the exact same day I moved out. I took the DD with me when I left but I couldn't take Ciara. After a few months went by he got in contact with me to help him evict her because he admitted she was beating Ciara and a whole list of other things. After I spent the good part of a month getting her evicted, getting Ciara back to not being terrified of being touched, filing police report after police report for that POS, he gets back with her because I won't move back in with him and pay for the house. At that point I took Ciara because she was obviously beaten and neglected and I will not stand by and watch that happen to my best friend. Now he hasn't paid the mortgage on the house at all since September when I left, in fact he hasn't paid ANY bills a lot of which are in both names. So he trashed my credit, I've got three dogs in a one bedroom apartment where I'm only allowed to have 2, I'm also paying lawyer and vet bills out my rear and now have to come up with another 3k to file bankruptcy because he trashed my credit so bad and I can't get out from under all HIS debt. So I get it.

On top of that Kaos is showing selective DA and I prevent more fights than I'd like between the dogs. It's to the point where he tolerates Ciara but nothing more and vice versa. I am desperately trying to find new housing and a new job and relocate without much success so far. My family and "friends" ALL beat feet because of my ex and him making everyone believe I'm the crazy one - even my own parents won't associate with me. I have ZERO friends locally and the few friends I do have are on here or not even remotely local. I have absolutely NO help either and am only one person. So I get it; you're preaching to the choir.

I am not trying to play tit for tat or "who's got it worse" - please don't think I am. I'm just simply pointing out that I get it and you're not the only one in that position. Sometimes rehoming pets is what is in THEIR best interest. I won't ever say that I will never get rid of a pet because I will ALWAYS do what is in the pets best interest. And no one loves their dogs more than I do. They have been my life line, along with a few select people, and literally have been the only reason I have gotten out of bed MANY days. But I will always do what is right for them, no matter what, even if that means it will be devastating to me.

I hope you find a way for things to work out, and I mean that sincerely. It sounds like you have a good system in place at home. You do what you have to do to make things work and I won't ever begrudge anyone that.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

PS - You're right so is a beauty! Thanks for the updated pictures.


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

DynamicDuo said:


> I never meant to offend you and if I did, I apologize. I didn't mean any judgement, only saying what I believe and do.
> 
> Listen, I get it. My (not soon enough to be ex) husband, whom I now know is a narcissist, threw me out of the house less than a year ago so he could move his crack loving, dog abusing, homeless, jobless girlfriend into my house - he literally moved her in the exact same day I moved out. I took the DD with me when I left but I couldn't take Ciara. After a few months went by he got in contact with me to help him evict her because he admitted she was beating Ciara and a whole list of other things. After I spent the good part of a month getting her evicted, getting Ciara back to not being terrified of being touched, filing police report after police report for that POS, he gets back with her because I won't move back in with him and pay for the house. At that point I took Ciara because she was obviously beaten and neglected and I will not stand by and watch that happen to my best friend. Now he hasn't paid the mortgage on the house at all since September when I left, in fact he hasn't paid ANY bills a lot of which are in both names. So he trashed my credit, I've got three dogs in a one bedroom apartment where I'm only allowed to have 2, I'm also paying lawyer and vet bills out my rear and now have to come up with another 3k to file bankruptcy because he trashed my credit so bad and I can't get out from under all HIS debt. So I get it.
> 
> ...


You didn't offend me at all. I was just explaining. Didn't want to seem like a whiner, and WOW..you definitely have it harder than me right now. I have ZERO interaction with my ex, so it makes things a lot easier. Sounds like we are in the same boat pretty much..at least I know that I'm not the only one.

As far as rehoming..I really feel strongly about never giving up my pets. I just don't see any reason good enough to warrant it (other than not being able to feed them and keep them alive). I really feel that rehoming a DA Amstaff would be especially hard and a terrible thing to do to her. That's how these dogs end up in shelters, and rehomed, after rehomed, after rehomed...I knew she had the potential to be this way when I decided to buy her. I had done my research on the breed. This is not her fault, plus I love her like crazy. I will work this out, even if things have to stay exactly as they are right now. Our setup so far, is working ok.

So sorry you are going through such a mess right now. You seem like a good person and are always helpful to everyone here. I truly believe in "karma", things have to work out for you soon. These narcissistic assholes seem to always get away with shit..it doesn't last forever though. It does catch up with them eventually (trust me, I just saw it in the court room last week, I won - big time). I'm so glad you saved Ciara. That's really sad what was going on.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

On another note, it sounds like it _may_ not even be a DA issue. It could very well be a dominance thing from what you're describing. Diva may well be coming into her own and trying to assert her dominance over Scooter. If that's the case, it's up to you to put her in her place and assert your dominance as leader of the pack and make it known to her that she is at the bottom. I would start the NILF training process (nothing in life is free) - make her wait to be fed last, make her wait for permission to get on the sofa, make her wait for attention, make her wait her turn for everything, and so on. With assertiveness and consistency on your part, that may solve your problem but until then I would keep doing what you're doing with keeping them separated or closely watched. Don't force interactions between them or "test" the waters. Although Kaos is showing DA with dogs outside the house, I also have to have a strong hand with him. Luckily both he and Ciara are obedient and go to their separate corners when told. He respects me as the pack leader but there are certainly times when I continue to have to put him in his place and knock him down a peg or two. Ciara has accepted him as the alpha dog but she doesn't tolerate his nonsense either which is when I have to send them to their corners (or him to his crate and her to time out on the sofa while Nala and I chill on the balcony and ignore them both!).

I'm sorry you're going through what you're going through. I can honestly say I know how that feels and it sucks.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

DivaDavies said:


> You didn't offend me at all. I was just explaining. Didn't want to seem like a whiner, and WOW..you definitely have it harder than me right now. I have ZERO interaction with my ex, so it makes things a lot easier. Sounds like we are in the same boat pretty much..at least I know that I'm not the only one.
> 
> As far as rehoming..I really feel strongly about never giving up my pets. I just don't see any reason good enough to warrant it (other than not being able to feed them and keep them alive). I really feel that rehoming a DA Amstaff would be especially hard and a terrible thing to do to her. That's how these dogs end up in shelters, and rehomed, after rehomed, after rehomed...I knew she had the potential to be this way when I decided to buy her. I had done my research on the breed. This is not her fault, plus I love her like crazy. I will work this out, even if things have to stay exactly as they are right now. Our setup so far, is working ok.
> 
> So sorry you are going through such a mess right now. You seem like a good person and are always helpful to everyone here. I truly believe in "karma", things have to work out for you soon. These narcissistic assholes seem to always get away with shit..it doesn't last forever though. It does catch up with them eventually (trust me, I just saw it in the court room last week, I won - big time). I'm so glad you saved Ciara. That's really sad what was going on.


Definitely not the only one! He's still threatening me and saying a whole bunch of nonsense claiming he's going to get me fired and arrested for "stealing" the dog even though the pd has already told him that's a no go. He's a moron and you're right he will get what's coming to him! We've both had a rough go of it but we're strong and better off and will definitely come out on top and better for it.

I understand and appreciate your thoughts on rehoming. I agree wholeheartedly with all of your points. I would rehome if I had to for the sake of a dog but only through a careful vetting process to someone with experience with the breeds that I got to know and trusted would take care of my dog.

And thank you, I try to help where I can but never intend to offend (well not unless it's _*well*_ deserved! LOL) There isn't anything I wouldn't do for any of my three and I know things will be easier when I can find more suitable housing hopefully with a yard of some sort. The DD don't get nearly the exercise that they need but I can't leave C home alone or she beys annoying the neighbors and she has a bad back end so I can't take her and run her with the young ones either. It's just a sucky living situation but it will get better! Only up from here for both of us!


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

DynamicDuo said:


> On another note, it sounds like it _may_ not even be a DA issue. It could very well be a dominance thing from what you're describing. Diva may well be coming into her own and trying to assert her dominance over Scooter. If that's the case, it's up to you to put her in her place and assert your dominance as leader of the pack and make it known to her that she is at the bottom. I would start the NILF training process (nothing in life is free) - make her wait to be fed last, make her wait for permission to get on the sofa, make her wait for attention, make her wait her turn for everything, and so on. With assertiveness and consistency on your part, that may solve your problem but until then I would keep doing what you're doing with keeping them separated or closely watched. Don't force interactions between them or "test" the waters. Although Kaos is showing DA with dogs outside the house, I also have to have a strong hand with him. Luckily both he and Ciara are obedient and go to their separate corners when told. He respects me as the pack leader but there are certainly times when I continue to have to put him in his place and knock him down a peg or two. Ciara has accepted him as the alpha dog but she doesn't tolerate his nonsense either which is when I have to send them to their corners (or him to his crate and her to time out on the sofa while Nala and I chill on the balcony and ignore them both!).
> 
> I'm sorry you're going through what you're going through. I can honestly say I know how that feels and it sucks.


That's exactly what I think is going on. It's almost like a terrible two's phase. I have always fed her last, given Scooter the first treat etc..but in general treated them as equals. I've noticed with her change in attitude towards Scooter, she's also being a little unruly..such as jumping up on me and putting her feet on the counter, crowding my daughter on the couch. Attempting to take food off the coffee table. She knows better! I make her listen to me and stop her from doing those things..but she's slowlyyyy doing what I say now rather than just hopping to it. She still respects me though, she does listen. It really seems like a developmental phase, but it must be nipped in the bud or it could get worse! I am going to google "NILF training process".

See! This is why I came here. You guys always help. I never would have known Diva was knuckling over as a puppy if it wasn't pointed out to me here. I think it was Eckomac that noticed in a pic and pointed it out.

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat and help. Now I have something to focus on to try to help the situation.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

Yep definitely sounds like she's become a petulant doggy teenager/terrible two! You're exactly right - developmental phase that must be nipped in the bud before it gets worse and she thinks she rules the roost!

I'm almost always around to chat and will help where/when I can. I think there's a stickie here about NILF but if not google will get you plenty of results and ideas. I really think it will help you - that and time. Dogs, like kids, do eventually grow out of this phase but just like kids, they need us to be the boss and make sure they stay in line!

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

DynamicDuo said:


> Yep definitely sounds like she's become a petulant doggy teenager/terrible two! You're exactly right - developmental phase that must be nipped in the bud before it gets worse and she thinks she rules the roost!
> 
> I'm almost always around to chat and will help where/when I can. I think there's a stickie here about NILF but if not google will get you plenty of results and ideas. I really think it will help you - that and time. Dogs, like kids, do eventually grow out of this phase but just like kids, they need us to be the boss and make sure they stay in line!
> 
> Good luck and keep us posted!


Yep, I will fill you in for sure 

I knew something seemed different about this situation. I am familiar with DA and dealt with a big dog who had it for 17 yrs. He was my best friends dog (rip). We tried curbing it or helping him get over it..there was no chance. We had to learn how to manage it and keep other dogs safe.

Thanks again!


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## TedH71 (Jun 13, 2011)

Spaying will not make it go away.


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## 2DogTrix (May 27, 2016)

It sounds like you already have some ideas. I have been there as well and with the help of a good trainer, my boy Harvey is very reliable around my other dog. For a while, he was ready to fight to the end over just a smell. The resource guarding situation was very bad. I feel pretty strongly that controlled interaction helped us work through it. They are crated side by side, eat in those side by side crates (I did have them further to start and gradually moved them closer), we walk together, and hang out together. Early on we muzzle conditioned and used that for safety but I haven't used a muzzle in ages. I literally have zero issues with them now. And for Harvey, being an unruly adolescent testing boundaries was definitely a piece of the puzzle. Good luck. I still don't (and won't) leave my boys together unsupervised but when supervised they do fantastically.


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## 2manyhorses (Aug 9, 2012)

I agree with Dynamic Duo here. Have had several unfortunately similar situations and it seems once the aggressive tone has been set, it doesn't go away. Not just Pitties, but Rotties and certainly other breeds as well (these are whom I've had the most experience with). Fortunately no one here ever died, but some serious injuries and vet bills have ensued in spite of my being very careful since the first episode. The last encounter was between my ancient female pit and a younger one that had been with us for at least a year. It came out of nowhere, no treats, toys, beds involved; the youngster seemingly just wanted to establish her alpha status while we were all peacefully sitting on the deck. I now use crates and separate. Strongly recommend doing the same. I also have mace in a central and easily accessible location. Hope this resolves to everyone's satisfaction.


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

2DogTrix said:


> It sounds like you already have some ideas. I have been there as well and with the help of a good trainer, my boy Harvey is very reliable around my other dog. For a while, he was ready to fight to the end over just a smell. The resource guarding situation was very bad. I feel pretty strongly that controlled interaction helped us work through it. They are crated side by side, eat in those side by side crates (I did have them further to start and gradually moved them closer), we walk together, and hang out together. Early on we muzzle conditioned and used that for safety but I haven't used a muzzle in ages. I literally have zero issues with them now. And for Harvey, being an unruly adolescent testing boundaries was definitely a piece of the puzzle. Good luck. I still don't (and won't) leave my boys together unsupervised but when supervised they do fantastically.


Thanks, you give me hope! Funny you mentioned the muzzle, because that's what Diva got for her birthday yesterday and it was so perfect. I was able to load them up in my car, take them to the trails. We did the first half of the trails with her muzzled, after some energy was burned off I removed it. She was perfectly fine after that. I muzzled in the car home. Then took it off. She let him get out of the car first without me asking. She let him enter the house first without me telling her to. She let him drink water first and I let them mingle 5 mins before I gated them off from each other. I have seen a huge improvement just by cracking down on her a little with nilif. Also, I took her to my work for a vet check today. She is 100000000% healthy, BUT she is going through a false pregnancy right now (I suspected it). I'm hoping that has triggered some of the problems lately, we will see.


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

2manyhorses said:


> I agree with Dynamic Duo here. Have had several unfortunately similar situations and it seems once the aggressive tone has been set, it doesn't go away. Not just Pitties, but Rotties and certainly other breeds as well (these are whom I've had the most experience with). Fortunately no one here ever died, but some serious injuries and vet bills have ensued in spite of my being very careful since the first episode. The last encounter was between my ancient female pit and a younger one that had been with us for at least a year. It came out of nowhere, no treats, toys, beds involved; the youngster seemingly just wanted to establish her alpha status while we were all peacefully sitting on the deck. I now use crates and separate. Strongly recommend doing the same. I also have mace in a central and easily accessible location. Hope this resolves to everyone's satisfaction.


Thanks for the tips..this situation is not that extreme yet. I literally just have to drape some expen fencing in between my kitchen and living room and it's good enough. I put one of them in my bedroom when I leave the house. I've narrowed it down to being resource guarding and it's in the kitchen only. She seems cool with him everywhere else. She just doesn't want him in what she thinks is "her" kitchen. Well... Diva is no longer allowed in the kitchen! I have hopes that this could somewhat be resolved only because she does not red zone and it is easy for me to get her to listen to me when she starts with him. One of the times she went for a chomp, I literally grabbed her snout with one hand and pushed her back, told her to sit (she did), then I put her away. Time will tell, I guess...I'll just take it as it comes and do my best.


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## 2manyhorses (Aug 9, 2012)

*Spaying and neutering helps ENORMOUSLY...*

Sorry pal, what you write is pure BS. Not only are the animals happier and easier to deal with, they are much healthier.
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/general-pet-care/spayneuter-your-pet
As someone who has worked in animal rescue for the last 3 decades, your comment is completely irresponsible. One of the shelters I worked with euthanized 30 pitbulls each week. Others didn't even adopt out the pitties, they were immediately euthanized on admittance. I asked one of the shelter directors why the extreme policy; she told me it was an attempt to reduce dog fighting in the county.


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## 2manyhorses (Aug 9, 2012)

She's a beautiful girl and it sounds like you are aware of the potential consequences. Guess all I can say is what you already know, never leave them alone together. Best of luck and thanks for asking others, I always did and learned a lot by doing so. OO


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

2manyhorses said:


> She's a beautiful girl and it sounds like you are aware of the potential consequences. Guess all I can say is what you already know, never leave them alone together. Best of luck and thanks for asking others, I always did and learned a lot by doing so. OO


Thank you! I've always learned so much from forums. There's nothing more "real" then talking to people with real life experience.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

2manyhorses said:


> Sorry pal, what you write is pure BS. Not only are the animals happier and easier to deal with, they are much healthier.
> https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/general-pet-care/spayneuter-your-pet
> As someone who has worked in animal rescue for the last 3 decades, your comment is completely irresponsible. One of the shelters I worked with euthanized 30 pitbulls each week. Others didn't even adopt out the pitties, they were immediately euthanized on admittance. I asked one of the shelter directors why the extreme policy; she told me it was an attempt to reduce dog fighting in the county.


Who are you referring to here? And I don't trust anything the SPCA says when it comes to bulldogs just FYI - just your directors comment regarding their extreme policy is a PERFECT example. If you're referring to spay/neuter policies there are some health benefits but spay/neuter has ZERO impact on behaviors such as this. It _may_ curb humping behavior of males but it's not going to calm them down or make them less aggressive or do less resource guarding.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

DivaDavies said:


> Thanks, you give me hope! Funny you mentioned the muzzle, because that's what Diva got for her birthday yesterday and it was so perfect. I was able to load them up in my car, take them to the trails. We did the first half of the trails with her muzzled, after some energy was burned off I removed it. She was perfectly fine after that. I muzzled in the car home. Then took it off. She let him get out of the car first without me asking. She let him enter the house first without me telling her to. She let him drink water first and I let them mingle 5 mins before I gated them off from each other. I have seen a huge improvement just by cracking down on her a little with nilif. Also, I took her to my work for a vet check today. She is 100000000% healthy, BUT she is going through a false pregnancy right now (I suspected it). I'm hoping that has triggered some of the problems lately, we will see.


I'm glad you're having success and NILF is working for you! However, just know that you didn't buy a very good muzzle. Any bulldog who is truly DA is going to rip that thing right off or rip right through it especially if it is truly just secured with velcro down the bottom as it appears. If you or anyone else has true DA concerns and requires a muzzle, I suggest basket muzzles with strong nylon attachments. Much safer and more secure.


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## 2manyhorses (Aug 9, 2012)

Forgot to mention, excellent source of info is https://animalfarmfoundation.org. I did a week long internship there about 8 years ago and learned so much about the breed, successful socialization practices, kennel enrichment for shelters. Don't think they offer the internships anymore, but they are a wonderful resource.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

DivaDavies said:


> Thanks for the tips..this situation is not that extreme yet. I literally just have to drape some expen fencing in between my kitchen and living room and it's good enough. I put one of them in my bedroom when I leave the house. I've narrowed it down to being resource guarding and it's in the kitchen only. She seems cool with him everywhere else. She just doesn't want him in what she thinks is "her" kitchen. Well... Diva is no longer allowed in the kitchen! I have hopes that this could somewhat be resolved only because she does not red zone and it is easy for me to get her to listen to me when she starts with him. One of the times she went for a chomp, I literally grabbed her snout with one hand and pushed her back, told her to sit (she did), then I put her away. Time will tell, I guess...I'll just take it as it comes and do my best.


This is another reason it is not a DA issue because if it were xpen fencing wouldn't be secure enough to hold her back either. Sounds like you have a good handle on the resource guarding. Just keep up the good work and stay watchful. Things can literally change in an instance.


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## 2manyhorses (Aug 9, 2012)

Ted, sorry, personal experience and all research says otherwise. Having grown up on a farm with dogs, cats, horses, cattle and having been around all of these for more than 5 decades, running a horse and dog rescue for most of those, I beg to differ. You may not like the SPCA, but it is a fact. Not only does spay and neuter make animals healthier, it makes them happier, easier to deal with, more desirable pets, not to mention the fact that it is remarkably effective at reducing the number of unwanted animals euthanized annually.
Not sure why you would want to fight spay/neuter...there's really no argument that you can make supporting that stance.


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## 2manyhorses (Aug 9, 2012)

This was for "Ted" who claimed that spaying would not make any difference in aggression levels. READ.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

There are plenty of arguments for keeping dogs intact - How about betterment of the breed? Keep bloodlines and breeds around? I'm not fighting spay/neuter and enthusiastically support it for the casual dog owners, BYB's who I am adamantly against, or for unworthy dogs. And I agree with it reducing the number of unwanted animals that are euthanized. However, I do not believe that everyone needs to spay/neuter. Responsible, reputable breeders for example and those responsible owners that take the necessary precautions that come with having intact pets. I've had several intact pets over the years, never once had an issue with a pregnancy or health problems or behavior problems with any of my intact dogs. In fact, my current male mutt didn't even show is DA until AFTER he was neutered (for medical reasons only). 
But it IS a fact that spay/neuter does NOTHING to tone down DA. That is one of the biggest myths around. I never said I didn't like the SPCA - just that I wouldn't give them the time of day when it comes to dealing with or advising on bull breeds. Clearly they are perpetuating the myths out there and proponents of BSL with statements like you described. 

And you can take your experience with horses and shelters and rescues and dogs combined and it doesn't amount to anything when it comes to bulldogs and bulldog experience. While every breed is different, it is even more important with these dogs and mutts with their blood to know what you are getting into and dealing with. Most people that have them shouldn't. 

I agree whole-heartedly that every casual pet owner should spay/neuter if for no other reason than to reduce the number of unwanted dogs but there are plenty of reasons to not spay/neuter as well.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

2manyhorses said:


> This was for "Ted" who claimed that spaying would not make any difference in aggression levels. READ.


It doesn't. Saying that it does is one of the biggest myths around.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

"The vast majority of the research done on spaying and neutering has ocused on medical issues, such as the reduction of the incidence of certain cancers and hormonally related diseases and canine population control. However, since my interests focus on behavior these gave me little insight. Ultimately my search of the scientific literature uncovered two studies that appeared to be soundly designed, which used similar methodology, collected data from a large number of dogs, and directly addressed the issue of behavior changes as a result of spaying and neutering. To be honest I found that their results to be surprising and somewhat shocking.

The first of these studies was reported by Deborah Duffy and James Serpell, both at the School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. It was published in The Proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Nonsurgical Contraceptive Methods for Pet Population Control*. The second was a master's thesis at Hunter College in New York which was submitted by Parvene Farhoody**. Both of these studies used the Canine Behavioral Assessment and Research Questionnaire (usually abbreviated as the C-BARQ) which was developed by Serpell and hisassociates. It is a long questionnaire, involving 101 items, and it has been shown to be a valid and reliable way of testing various aspects of canine aggression, fear and anxiety, attachment, excitability, energy level and other factors. It is based upon owners directly reporting the occurrence or non-occurrence of specific behaviors in their dogs in a structured way.

The number of dogs tested in these two studies is quite large. The Duffy and Serpell study tested two different samples, one of 1,552 dogs and the other of 3,593 dogs. The Farhoody study tested 10,839 dogs, thus the combined studies provide data on 15,984 dogs in total, making this an amazingly powerful data set.

There are too many measures for me to report in detail, however the main results were the same across all three samples of dogs. Given that one of the accepted behavioral reasons for spaying and neutering is to reduce aggression, the distressing results of these studies is that spayed and neutered dogs actually show considerably more aggression. Depending upon the specific form of aggression (owner directed, stranger directed etc.) the size of these effects is quite large, varying from a low of around a 20 percent increase to more than double the level of aggression in the neutered dogs as measured by the C-BARQ scoring scale. A further surprise was that these effects were similar for both males and females.One slight difference between males and females is that for male dogs the age at which they are neutered makes no difference in the increase of aggression relative to intact dogs, however for females early spaying (before the dog is one year of age) causes a considerably larger increase in aggression relative to later spaying.

A different worrisome finding is that there was a roughly 31 percent increase in fearfulness for both sexes. This is accompanied by a 33 percent increase in touch sensitivity. The spayed and neutered dogs also showed a roughly 8 percent increase in excitability. About the only positive effect on behavior that seems to result from spaying and neutering is the roughly 68 percent decrease in urine marking."

And that is just information on TWO scientifically conducted, peer reviewed studies published by major research institutions with large sample size and high degree of validity and reliability. You can't argue with science.


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## 2manyhorses (Aug 9, 2012)

You like to talk, but have no sources to cite; I have many. Just cite one, aside from a breeders forum. It is clear that you really don't care about all thousands of animals who die daily because of over-population. 
You keep breeding them and I keep seeing them die daily because there are simply not enough homes for them all. How do you rationalize what you do if you claim to love animals?


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

I don't breed but I have plenty of friends that do and am hoping to get my first true bulldog in the next few years from a breeder.

I just cited two sources above and here is a PDF link to the actual study in a peer reviewed journal conducted by veterinarians at the University of Penn - not only Ivy league but one of the top rated veterinary schools in the Country

http://www.naiaonline.org/uploads/WhitePapers/EarlySNAndBehaviorDuffySerpell.pdf

You and your "experience" aren't a source - I have experience with dogs and rescues and shelters too. You sited some BS ASPCA website which is based on nothing but conjecture and common myth. I cited a scientific study done by veterinarians with a LARGE sample size. Breeders forums are hardly considered a solid source either.

ROFL I don't love animals because I believe that there is a time and place to keep animals intact and not everyone should automatically spay/neuter. GTFO and go back to playing with your horses


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

Or how about this pdf link - a whole LIST of studies showing that spaying/neutering INCREASES aggression (both human & dog of known & unknown origin)

http://saveourdogs.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Aggression-and-spay-neuter-in-dogs.pdf


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## 2manyhorses (Aug 9, 2012)

I'll get back to you tomorrow. You are completely full of sh*t.


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

DynamicDuo said:


> I'm glad you're having success and NILF is working for you! However, just know that you didn't buy a very good muzzle. Any bulldog who is truly DA is going to rip that thing right off or rip right through it especially if it is truly just secured with velcro down the bottom as it appears. If you or anyone else has true DA concerns and requires a muzzle, I suggest basket muzzles with strong nylon attachments. Much safer and more secure.


I have a basket muzzle too, but I prefer this one for her. She hardly noticed it, and it did the job. I have it for when I put both dogs in the vehicle to drive them to do some trail walking with me. I really don't want a scrap breaking out behind me while I'm trying to drive.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

Hey, they're not my words but the words of Ivy league educated veterinarians and researchers. So I guess they're the ones really full of it? I guess so was Hawking or other scientists who used the same methods to prove their theories? 

Go find or make up your sources to cite or call up PETA or some other over the top organization to come calling and "get back to me tomorrow".

And just for the record, if you actually read my postings, I was never against spay/neuter and agreed with you in many instances; however, I am against the spewing of nonsense, people telling me I don't know what I'm talking about or love animals, and indiscriminate, absolute spay/neuter policies. I know what indiscriminate breeding does and know how many animals, especially bull breed mixes, are euthanized daily because of poor breeding practices and over-population. In fact, if you read up on some of my other posts I implore people and have gotten into heated discussions with others over the desire to breed inferior dogs. I have two rescued bull breed mutts at home with a range of health problems because of their inferior breeding thanks to a BYB. But I also am friends with people who responsibly and reputably breed their dogs and there is nothing wrong with that either. I never intended to get into a spay/neuter debate here and was only pointing out, and cited several credible sources, that spay/neuter does not have the effect on aggression that you believe it does.


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

DynamicDuo said:


> Or how about this pdf link - a whole LIST of studies showing that spaying/neutering INCREASES aggression (both human & dog of known & unknown origin)
> 
> http://saveourdogs.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Aggression-and-spay-neuter-in-dogs.pdf


I totally believe this to be true! My plan all along was to do an ovary sparing spay surgery.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

DivaDavies said:


> I have a basket muzzle too, but I prefer this one for her. She hardly noticed it, and it did the job. I have it for when I put both dogs in the vehicle to drive them to do some trail walking with me. I really don't want a scrap breaking out behind me while I'm trying to drive.


I am all for using what works! I just wanted to make sure you know that if you ran into further, more serious problems that that muzzle likely wouldn't cut it. Fingers crossed you nipped it in the bud addressing the resource guarding and using NILIF and things only continue to improve!

BTW Diva is looking fantastic! She really is a beauty, you should be proud.


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

DynamicDuo said:


> I am all for using what works! I just wanted to make sure you know that if you ran into further, more serious problems that that muzzle likely wouldn't cut it. Fingers crossed you nipped it in the bud addressing the resource guarding and using NILIF and things only continue to improve!
> 
> BTW Diva is looking fantastic! She really is a beauty, you should be proud.


Thank you  She is strong and solid. If tougher methods are needed, I don't hesitate to use them. For example, she was pulling me far too much on our walk the other evening (using a front clip harness), so she got introduced to the prong collar. She's really just testing her boundaries right now it seems. Little brat!


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

LOL I think you're spot on. Terrible twos for Diva mean grief for mama but keep on her and you'll have yourself a well behaved, well socialized young adult soon!


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

Ya - I don't even know what to think of Diva right now. Took them for a walk tonight around the neighbourhood. I put Diva's muzzle on for the first 4-5 blocks (just to let her know, I'm not putting up with no shit). She walked after that with no muzzle, alongside scooter, for about an hour. There was twice she looked like *maybe* she might start something with him, but I verbally warned her, and she stopped herself. There was one point on our walk, that a "pit bull" of some sort charged it's short fence going crazy at my dogs. Scooter, stood his ground and went right back at it (he's super protective of me)...Diva cowered like a wimp. Which just further proves what I said before, she is friendly with all other animals, not confrontational at all. She is ONLY cocky with Scooter. She still follows his lead. She's not actually that confidant. It's so weird. I guess maybe she is only comfortable enough with him to act up? Either way..she behaved VERY well on the walk.So she gets a gold star  I had them both on a short lead, with Scooter only a foot ahead of her. We are taking baby steps...I still trust her..ZERO.  but we are getting somewhere.


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

Well, whatever was going on, has passed. I do believe it was "maternal aggression" due to her having a false pregnancy. She's back to her silly ol' self. They spend all of their time together just like before, EXCEPT for when I'm not home. I will never, ever let them be together when they are alone. Lesson learned! If I think about it, all of my dogs have fought from time to time, but none had the strength that Diva does. I'm hoping the good behaviour continues, but I will never let my guard down again.


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## littermates (Jun 26, 2018)

*littermates*

We had 2 female littermates BAD IDEA. It cost us over $1700 to put them back together once never again. Before this we went to dog training and had them spayed. Neither worked. We loved them both very much so we did what we had to. We leashed 1 to the back door 15 foot leash and one to the front door 10 foot leash. There was 2 feet between them and my wife could pet Zoe and I could pet Ruby. Once we put 1 out we unleashed the other then we would switch them. We did this for over 9 years until we had to put Zoe down from cancer. What was crazy is that we crated them when we weren't home and the crates were 10 inches away from each other and neither went after the other. That is why I joined this forum years ago. I thought we could over come this behavior with walks and other things but noting worked. So this was the option we took instead of giving one away. We just put Ruby down from cancer in May.
God Bless and Good luck


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## littermates (Jun 26, 2018)

posted something this morning and don't see it now there it is


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

littermates said:


> We had 2 female littermates BAD IDEA. It cost us over $1700 to put them back together once never again. Before this we went to dog training and had them spayed. Neither worked. We loved them both very much so we did what we had to. We leashed 1 to the back door 15 foot leash and one to the front door 10 foot leash. There was 2 feet between them and my wife could pet Zoe and I could pet Ruby. Once we put 1 out we unleashed the other then we would switch them. We did this for over 9 years until we had to put Zoe down from cancer. What was crazy is that we crated them when we weren't home and the crates were 10 inches away from each other and neither went after the other. That is why I joined this forum years ago. I thought we could over come this behavior with walks and other things but noting worked. So this was the option we took instead of giving one away. We just put Ruby down from cancer in May.
> God Bless and Good luck


That sounds like alot of work. Kudos to you for doing that for your dogs.

Diva is totally fine now, we only ever had the one incident. We actually have a 3rd dog now (puppy). It was a surrender at my work, a Golden Doodle. They are best of friends. We went back to basics with Diva (NILIF) after her fight with my other dog, and it really helped. I also make sure to always feed her separately. She is fine with bones, toys...but she guards her food, and I figure why not just let her have that time to eat in private? Anyways, she was also spayed yesterday, so we will no longer have to deal with the false pregnancies or mood swings to go with all of that. As long as I separate the dogs when I'm not home, I think everything will be fine from here on. I have seen zero signs of aggression with Diva towards my dogs or even other dogs out in public. She has been rushed up to many of times by off leash dogs and all she wants to do is play (I don't let her).


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

Well...I'll always be the first to admit when I'm wrong. You guys were right.

Yesterday, I was sitting on a stool in the kitchen making sure the puppy got his food in peace. He finished. My older dog Scooter came behind me sniffing the floor for crumbs and Diva bit down on his ear so fast, there was zero warning. He was squealing. I grabbed her mouth to get her off of him, and my third finger got in her mouth and it's mangled bad. THEN, I grabbed the break stick and popped her off. (Seriously, what an idiot I am for not doing that the first time, it was so easy). I had to go to the hospital and have my finger stitched back together. I was close to losing the top of my finger completely. Scooter (my 7 yr old dog) is totally fine, but me...not so much. I'm in alot of pain and finger is in bad shape, actually my whole hand and all 4 fingers are swollen because of it.

NEVER, EVER, EVER again will I have Diva around another dog PERIOD. Ive got some serious thinking to do. I tried to consider rehoming her, and I just can't. Can we live a crate and rotate style of living? I'm not sure. I sure love my baby girl though..  I feel so sad. She so enjoys playing with and being with the other dogs, but she will never be able to again. She's been crying all day because she wants to be with them. I have been very fair with rotations, and I actually don't use crates, I use fencing, gates, and bedrooms. It's still hard (and heartbreaking). I did puppy classes. I socialized her SO much from puppyhood on. I went back to basics and buckled down on her when she started acting up 3 months ago. This is very obviously genetics. I know that I've done my absolute best, but I feel so defeated.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

Don't feel defeated. There is no fixing DA. So it's not something you can stop or win at. You just learn, adapt, and stay vigilant.


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## Bulldoggin' (Jan 24, 2018)

What possessed you to stick your bare hands in the business end of any dog while it was in use???


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

EckoMac said:


> Don't feel defeated. There is no fixing DA. So it's not something you can stop or win at. You just learn, adapt, and stay vigilant.


Thanks Ecko...I'm learning *sigh*


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

Bulldoggin' said:


> What possessed you to stick your bare hands in the business end of any dog while it was in use???


Pure stupidity. I truly had no clue how strong her jaw is. She's always had such a soft mouth with me. It felt like a vice grip though man, lesson learned.


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## jttar (Jan 31, 2013)

DivaDavies said:


> Pure stupidity. I truly had no clue how strong her jaw is. She's always had such a soft mouth with me. It felt like a vice grip though man, lesson learned.


That's the important part DivaDavies, live and learn. Sincerely hope your finger heals without permanent problems.

Joe


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## nancy619 (Sep 19, 2018)

I am having the same issue with my rescue pit. I have 2 small dogs and unprovoked the bit has been caught grabbing them and shaking them like a dish rag. I think my dog may have been part of a puppy mill - or is this pit behavior? I love him and don't want to have to give him up - but I love the others as well and have had them prior to getting him. Also we were told he was a boxer mix when we got him - not


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## jttar (Jan 31, 2013)

nancy619 said:


> I am having the same issue with my rescue pit. I have 2 small dogs and unprovoked the bit has been caught grabbing them and shaking them like a dish rag. I think my dog may have been part of a puppy mill - or is this pit behavior? I love him and don't want to have to give him up - but I love the others as well and have had them prior to getting him. Also we were told he was a boxer mix when we got him - not


It is not abnormal for bully breeds to have DA. That is just one reason they are not for everyone. Your choice is to crate and rotate or rehome.

Joe


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## dogma (Aug 3, 2015)

Yup, been there, done that. When Michaela turned 2, she decided she’d had enough of Riley bossing her. He was also her favorite playmate and until then, raced around and wrestled all the time. She picked a fight with him out in the yard, pushing him until he snarled at her, and then tore into him. Riley was all talk, not a fighter, and I broke up her attack on him by grabbing her hind legs and wheelbarrowing her. Riley ran for my sister who hustled him into the house.
From then on, they were separated, always, until I lost Riley to cancer a year ago last May. She is okay with my oldest dog, Murphy, but she is never off leash around him either and she kenneled separately outside (built a 30 x 80 ft run onto the end stall in the barn) when she wants outside time. Don’t know if it’s weird or not, but she adores the house cats.


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## samsantana54 (Jul 16, 2018)

Why would you put two dogs together after a fight?

Sent from my LG-SP200 using Tapatalk


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## dogma (Aug 3, 2015)

samsantana54 said:


> Why would you put two dogs together after a fight?
> 
> Sent from my LG-SP200 using Tapatalk


Is this addressed to me? Riley and Michaela were ALWAYS separated after the fight. Murphy is an outdoor farm dog, very low key, who Michaela ALWAYS liked and still does, even though I don't let her loose with him. That is more due to his advanced age (15 yrs) and her rambunctious play style. He was snoozing in the basement when the fight occurred and she was leashed, in the house and crated before he wandered out. They still greet each other politely (Michaela on leash, either heading in or out of the house), and he'll occasionally wash her ears if I give him the chance.


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## samsantana54 (Jul 16, 2018)

It was for the OP


dogma said:


> Is this addressed to me? Riley and Michaela were ALWAYS separated after the fight. Murphy is an outdoor farm dog, very low key, who Michaela ALWAYS liked and still does, even though I don't let her loose with him. That is more due to his advanced age (15 yrs) and her rambunctious play style. He was snoozing in the basement when the fight occurred and she was leashed, in the house and crated before he wandered out. They still greet each other politely (Michaela on leash, either heading in or out of the house), and he'll occasionally wash her ears if I give him the chance.


Sent from my LG-SP200 using Tapatalk


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

samsantana54 said:


> It was for the OP
> 
> Sent from my LG-SP200 using Tapatalk


I had not quite figured out what's going on with her yet...and she was still technically a puppy. She's matured now, and I 100% know what's up with her. She's highly dog aggressive, dangerous, and has to be muzzled or separated at all times. Not sure if you think you're helping by asking me that question with no helpful suggestions? But I've figured it out...thanks.


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## Riley82 (Sep 18, 2018)

So happy this has worked out for Diva! She's beautiful


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## Choisauce87 (Jan 18, 2017)

Just caught up on this thread. Glad you got things all figured out with Diva! My boy is almost three and I got him at around 8 weeks. I socialized him like mad in hopes that he would be a nice and friendly dog with a lot of dog friends. Now that he is reaching adulthood he is definitely more of a selectively DA dog. Which is something I have learned through some not so fun experiences. Wondering if you guys agree, I think we have an unhealthy obsession with our dogs being dog-friendly in the US. A dog is no better or worse of a dog if he doesn't like all dogs or shows aggression. They are animals and cannot help their nature! We can only help how we manage and control situations to keep them and others safe. 

It's just something I've been thinking about lately as my boy is getting older because I think I am guilty of having tried too hard to make my dog like all dogs and got upset when he would show aggressive behavior. No more of that!

Also, wondering why 2ManyHorses never came back the next day to prove that DynamicDuo was full of sh*t. I've chosen to keep my boy intact. He is healthy, well behaved, does not roam--a very calm and well mannered dog. I have no plans on breeding him, keeping him intact because I believe it is the healthier option. I completely agree with DynamicDuo that it is not for most people and I support spay/neuters for the majority of pet owners. I acknowledge that owning an intact dog is more responsibility and way more work. He has a lot of energy and requires an enormous amount of exercise. But nothing that isn't manageable with dedication and discipline. 

Sorry for the rant! Reading this thread just brought up a lot of things that I have thought about/were on my mind.


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## DynamicDuo (Sep 3, 2016)

Choisauce87 said:


> Just caught up on this thread. Glad you got things all figured out with Diva! My boy is almost three and I got him at around 8 weeks. I socialized him like mad in hopes that he would be a nice and friendly dog with a lot of dog friends. Now that he is reaching adulthood he is definitely more of a selectively DA dog. Which is something I have learned through some not so fun experiences. Wondering if you guys agree, I think we have an unhealthy obsession with our dogs being dog-friendly in the US. A dog is no better or worse of a dog if he doesn't like all dogs or shows aggression. They are animals and cannot help their nature! We can only help how we manage and control situations to keep them and others safe.
> 
> It's just something I've been thinking about lately as my boy is getting older because I think I am guilty of having tried too hard to make my dog like all dogs and got upset when he would show aggressive behavior. No more of that!
> 
> ...


I don't think you'll find any true advocates for APBTs proponents of ANY dog "friends". As you're learning, dogs DO NOT need "dog friends". They need their people. Dogs aren't people and don't feel or think like humans do. They don't need "friends" or trips to the dog park to be happy. They need to be properly cared for by their owners. Fed well, trained, exercised, and properly cared for. They don't even need warm "beds" or clothes or toys necessarily. Sure people give their dogs these things but it's more for the benefit of people emotions than necessarily for the dogs to be "happy". A single dog kept outside on a chain spot can be just as happy and cared for as the friendliest dog at the dog park that loves everyone and every thing.

The biggest problem those of us that love and advocate for these dogs face are these common beliefs and misconceptions. They result in irresponsible dog ownership of these dogs. Combine that with irresponsible breeding and BYB's and you get the BSL BS and media hype that we deal with today.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

Hello everyone! Just poking around the forum. Diva just turned 3. She still has her "moments" where she goes after Scooter (and the other day the cat) buttttt she has an awesome Bumas muzzle that she wears supervised around the other pets, otherwise she is separated. We have definitely learned how to manage her DA, and she has a real good life 

Highly, highly, recommend BUMAS muzzles for anyone looking for a good, comfortable muzzle that dogs can wear for long periods of time. Expensive, but worth every penny.

From the knuckling tips, to the aggression tips...I really appreciate this forum.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

Awww and we appreciate the update! I'm so glad everything worked out.


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## jttar (Jan 31, 2013)

Happy to hear things are going good for Diva and yourself. Thanks for the great collage of her. She reminds me of my girl Athena. Glad you checked in, pretty slow around here.

Joe


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## DivaDavies (Jul 3, 2017)

I pop in every once and awhile. Never forget those whom have helped me  forum may be quiet, but that search button holds a wealth of information. Very valuable forum.


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