# Preservation of Gameness



## Indica (Sep 23, 2008)

If you don't want to discuss this, or are tired of it, don't participate. I want to discuss it and hear other people's thoughts and opinions. 



What does gameness mean to you?

To me, gameness in reference to APBTs is the ability to perservere at all costs, over any obstacle, -or die trying.

IMO, gameness in it's purest form, (all of the necessary physiological and mental traits are inherited in the fullest degree) is extremely rare. Mainly, imo because to unveil this concoction of talent involves illegality. -or does it?

Are there other ways to determine the presence of true gameness? Does the future of this trait depend on us to find an alternative way of testing our dog's mettle? Does a game test require extreme physical pain and or/ only appear in combat situations? Is gameness limited to combat?-or are tests of will sufficient?

I feel that we need to determine an alternative way to test for game qualities in order to preserve the breed. There needs to be a legal way to do this. 


What do you think?


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

There was a big thread on this once before.
The definition of it now has changed since 'true gameness' can only be determined by the box.
Found the quote "an unwillingness to give up, even under the most difficult of circumstances and despite the threat of death."

The closest it gets now 'legally' is probably the tug-o-war that I've seen lately. Where there is a dog on each end of the rope, sometimes with a board between them, sometimes not.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

Gameness to me, is what it was originally used for with the APBT. And yes, I feel that gameness is limited to combat with another dog of the same weight. 

The only alternative to test and/or preserve it, is to go to a country where it is legal. 

I think Mexico is the closest, anyone willing to move? LOL.


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## Indica (Sep 23, 2008)

Yeah, that does make sense to say that it has changed. Especially since originally, it was to describe ability in the box.

Seems like it's becoming a bit vague now.

The breed seems to be searching for a new place, and that kind of ability needs to be put to use or it will dissolve, IMO. It needs a job where these traits will allow it to surpass all breeds and people will understand the uniquness of it, and for once appreciate it!


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## Indica (Sep 23, 2008)

NesOne said:


> Gameness to me, is what it was originally used for with the APBT. And yes, I feel that gameness is limited to combat with another dog of the same weight.
> 
> The only alternative to test and/or preserve it, is to go to a country where it is legal.
> 
> I think Mexico is the closest, anyone willing to move? LOL.


I hope the true APBT doesn't become extinct in the US. :/


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

I think everyone needs to consider the admins of this site and the fact that they accept full responsibility for everything said on here. Forums get fingured all the time for being a network of dogfighters and this is the type of stuff the media eats up. Nobody on this site should know if their dog is even game, lets just leave it at that.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

Reddoggy is right...no one here SHOULD know. This is one of those conversations that will never be agreed on or won. One thing for sure is the real pit dogs are diminishing rapidly. Most of those punk wannabe dogmen don't care about gameness...just winning. A dog doesn't have to be game to win. Gameness is an amazing quality but cannot be proven unless you game test...so we may never know, we can only speculate.


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## Indica (Sep 23, 2008)

Wow. I am completely amazed at the hypocrisy I have just witnessed. 

My first post I got flamed because I supported breeders who breed for appearance and temperment. Everyone started spouting off about "real" APBTs. And the funny part is NONE of us have a REAL APBT if what you say is true. Hehe. 

Even better, the little adba champions that are held in such high regard are the SAME thing as UKC and Amstaff show dogs! Just a different shape now that the trait "shhhhh" gameness is something we cannot speak of!


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Gameness can only be determined in the []. However, a APBT does not have to be "Game" to be an APBT. Not all APBT's were used in the box, many were just working dogs..


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Indica said:


> What does gameness mean to you??


*Gameness isn't up for opinion,it is what it is,I'll tell you what it's not,two dog's fighting each other in a backyard,a result of dog aggression,nor is it exclusive to the apbt,[although only a few breeds carry the trait],a trait that is in the mind and heart of the dog,it isn't some so called breed experts opinion or a soccer mom's vague misinterpretation of a definition.
I believe it is[gameness] a total lack of self preservation*



Indica said:


> Are there other ways to determine the presence of true gameness? Does the future of this trait depend on us to find an alternative way of testing our dog's mettle? Does a game test require extreme physical pain and or/ only appear in combat situations? Is gameness limited to combat?-or are tests of will sufficient???


*I'm not sure if there are other ways to test for it,if there are they haven't been created,and i believe it can only be evaluated correctly in the face of extreme pain and eminent death,jmo.
also i don't believe it only appears in the face of death or combat,in a game dog it is evident in there every day tasks,in other words a game dog is game no matter what it is doing!although it can only be properly tested for in the face of death*



Indica said:


> I feel that we need to determine an alternative way to test for game qualities in order to preserve the breed. There needs to be a legal way to do this. ???


I disagree respectfully,we can preserve this breed and still maintain the trait of deep drive and a never quit attitude with out testing for gameness,jmo....

What do you think?[/QUOTE]


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

Felonies suck dude...you can talk about gameness all you want but you cannot prove your dog is a game dog unless you put them in the box. I'm not so sure I would go around telling people on a public forum my dog is dead game even if I were a true dogman....which I'm not. Good luck getting a dogman to speak freely here. 

I have argued this subject to death about a dog showing signs of gameness without the box and everyone keeps telling me that there is no way. I am not going to prove them wrong because I enjoy my freedom but I can always speculate that my dogs will kick their dog's asses. Most people here don't have dogs that were tightly bred for fighting, so yes, I guess you could say none of us have a true pit dog...but rather a shell of the true APBT. I'm not gonna prove otherwise. These topics always run hot then get shut down or deleted so I'm not gonna waste anymore time with the subject.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

who's trying to prove there dog is game?It's called a discusion and it isnt a felony to talk about this breed its temperment or its history.
sorry.


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

I wasn't responding to you smart ass. I was responding to the OP's last post.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Interesting article I just found..

Anyone who has ever witnessed Pit Bull aggression is usually shocked by the level of ferocity these dogs display. The come hard, with everything they have, and do not stop coming. What most do not realize is that this has long been a desirable and positive trait of the breed. It is called _gameness. _Only the Pit Bulls have gameness. Essentially, it is the undying determination to keep going despite pain, injury, or insurmountable odds. What many do not also realize is that gameness was bred into these animals for a reason.

Dog fighting has not always been a bloodsport as witnessed today. In the 19th Century, it was much more a gentleman's sport, with integrity and much accolade. Owners rarely allowed their dogs to fight to the death. When the least sign of submission was displayed, the animals were taken apart and the loser conceded. They were prize fighters at a time when America was rising in power and proving its mettle. Life was hard and Americans were hardworking. They created a breed that matched their determination to succeed. The American Pit Bull Terrier had all these qualities and more.

Pit Bulls were selected and culled on the traits of their gameness. The size of the animal was irrelevant. In fact, the average weight of Pit Bulls then was 18-35 pounds. A smaller dog was often better skilled. They were the only breed that could take on dogs 100 pounds heavier than they and defeat them. Another glaring difference between the dogs of today and yesterday was the amount of human aggression displayed. Pit Bulls were quickly put down by their owners when any sign of human aggression presented itself in the early days. The handlers needed to have dogs they could tend to without being bitten. Over time, the Pit Bull earned a reputation for being human friendly. This trait still exists today, but it is slowly but surely being bastardized.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I just worry about proving type, temperament, structure, working abilty. There's no way to really prove gameness outside the box, and I refuse to go there.


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## Indica (Sep 23, 2008)

Thanks Cane and Chevy, helpful input!

The kind I was looking for. I said clearly if you don't wnt to talk about it, then don't. No one made you come in here. Secondly, no one's talking about fighting their dogs. This is theory! If you have a pit bull, you have to come to terms with the breed's history or GET A LAB for christ's sake if you can't handle discussion.

It's just THEORY. Can't get a felony for free speech.

-least I hope the govmnt isn't that far gone. X)

From now on, I'll just call this modern pit bull zest, "drive", since it cannot be proven as gameness. Fair?


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Yup drive is a common word here..


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Indica said:


> Thanks Cane and Chevy, helpful input!
> 
> The kind I was looking for. I said clearly if you don't wnt to talk about it, then don't. No one made you come in here. Secondly, no one's talking about fighting their dogs. This is theory! If you have a pit bull, you have to come to terms with the breed's history or GET A LAB for christ's sake if you can't handle discussion.
> 
> ...


Okay, I'm am very "on the level" about owning APBTs, you have an RE bully correct? You're not gonna know or see the things that some of us here do. Not insulting, just a different breed with a different attitude. As far as game goes, there is no theorizing on the subject. Determining game is done so by a series of rolls(test fights). I have no interest in preseving game, just drive. Drive kicks ass. Seriously, what is the point in preserving game if we don't use these dogs for game? Anyway, yeah, color and temperament are not the first things you wanna look at when getting a pit puppy. And discussing game is a tight rope. Why don't you take a look at other forums that have been fingered for talking about this subject too often.... Poor Marty(mod for GP) recently had to hire a lawyer over this crap. He is trully dedicated to the breed and the cause and has a bit of money to throw at it. Erik, founder of GP, is a younger guy and I'd hate to hear that he had to start going to court over things said here, this site could likely be shut down. Consider this, when Pat Patrick got taken down the media instantly started looking into our forums, same goes for Boudrouex(SP?). They have stated, on the 6 O'clock news that these sites are an underground network of dogfighters.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Gameness to me is something only one could describe by definition without seeing it first hand. I will never know what true gameness is because I am not a dog dogfighter. I think their is a big difference between a dog having drive and a dog possesing the gameness trait which is often desired by dogger's and is also rare because not every dog bred off champion fighters will posess that same gameness. I have read that dogger's are lucky to get at least 1 pup in an entire litter that has what it takes to become a champion fighter and posses that "gameness trait" . Unless you are an exp handler and know what to look for when testing your dog for gameness in the box you will never truly know or understand what gameness really is anything else is speculation. All I know about gameness is what I have read and the definition of what gameness means to a dogfighter IMO there is no need for gameness in our breed today because our breed is no longer being matched in the box therefore gameness does not matter to me. Historically I embrace gameness and what it was meant to be in another time and another place.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

In my humble opinion the only legal way to test the metle of a bull dog is to get it big game hunting. Boar hunting is my chosen test. I do not call the dogs game...but they are hard as coffin nails. My dog can grab a good hold and hang on until the knife comes. Dogs take a beating and some get killed...but when you and your dog(s) are running through the bush and work together you will learn things about that dog that no other legal means can show you.
For instance will your dog turn tail and let you get gored when a 150 pound nasty Jabali is in front of it? Will the dog scratch to the hog even after the boar ripped and dragged him. I think the old blood in the pit bull was in essence the bull dog...the butchers catch dog. This is a natural transition in my opinion from fighter to hunter. Nothing tests heart like fear, pain, and combat.

Another good reason the hunt test is good for APBT is a hunting party is made up of a few humans and the dog must be able to work along side humans with out transferring aggression. Also strangers may get to the bay before the dogs owner so the dog must stay on task and hold that hog reguardless of who comes to help.

A couple hard dogs + a big knife + legal hunting grounds = great temperment tests and a Bar-B-Que.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

for those not familiar with boar hunting this is a good website with good vid clips.

http://www.lifesaboar.co.nz/movie_non.asp


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

Indica said:


> I said clearly if you don't wnt to talk about it, then don't. No one made you come in here. Secondly, no one's talking about fighting their dogs. This is theory! If you have a pit bull, you have to come to terms with the breed's history or GET A LAB for christ's sake if you can't handle discussion.QUOTE]
> 
> With all do respect, when you speak of gameness you are speaking about fighting dogs as this is the only way to prove it. You can blah blah all day about it but you are only speculating about the subject. It is no "what does gameness mean to you" it means the same to everyone. I can more than handle the subject but it never gets anywhere.
> 
> ...


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I really don't see the need to get nasty with each other. The OP said she would use DRIVE instead of gameness so let it be.

I have my two rescued pitbulls I don't know what bloodlines they carry but by looking at their pictures you know that they are indeed APBTs. Chalice has a tremedous(sp?) amount of drive and IF I were not there she would have killed two of my goats as she gets ahold of them you almost have to choke her to death to get her to let go. Is she game becasue of this I don't know but I do know that she will hold on to and try to kill what ever she deems needs to die at the moment. She is a had dog to have in a multi dog and animal home. Mikado on the other hand is way more passive but he never forgets if he gets madat a dog. I have to keep him seperated from three other dogs here cause he doesn't htink they are worthy of life. I would have to say that Chalice is prey driven and Mikado is not. Thank god for that I don't think I could handle two like Chalice not in this household anyways.


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## Indica (Sep 23, 2008)

Yeah, so I have a RE dog. Big deal. I have had APBTs in the past, so acting like you're better than me or whatever the hell you're trying to do, isn't going to work. I have the right to talk about whatever the hell I please.

If you don't like it, TOUGH SHIT. 

You can own 8 dogs and still not know jack about the breed. So hinting that I don't have the right to talk about the CORE of this breed is beyond me.

I thought that's what forums were for? Guess not. Guess a forum is for people who pretend to know what they are talking about and try and make other people feel stupid or bad about themselves. 

So much for productive discussion. People can't be mature. They feel they have to make corny little insults to prove NOTHING other than their lack of tact.

Whatever. I'm done with this forum. There's a handful of nice people, and a lot of douchebags that I don't wanna waste my time dealing with.

I'll go find a new community with people who are interested in theory, preservation, and actually DO something with their dogs. I'm done with people who have a bunch of dogs chained up and they are automatically experts. 

Yeah, I have gotti/re dog. That has nothing to do with how much I know or how much I care. It is irrelevent.

This forum is pretty much dead anyway. Thought I'd try and spark some interesting discussion. But apprently some people are tired of talking about the breed THIS FORUM IS ABOUT. It's like having a GSD forum and not talking about K9 work.

SO, ya'll have a good life. I'm moving on.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

You know its funny some members want to report other members for putting members dog/s down and turns around and does it themselves, it don't work that way


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Wow why do these threads always go south? I don't have an issue with the topic I thought we were just giving our definition of gameness and what it means to us as apbt/bully dog owners? I don't understand why things always get out of hand to the point of bashing someones dogs or eachother. I like everyone here and I hate to see threads that start off good and informative get closed over things like this that happen over difference of opinion. Just putting my 2 cents in because it's pretty sad that we are all adults here fighting like 2 year olds when it really doesn't have to be that way. I like a heated debate but sometimes it just gets to be too much. On that note can't we all just get along?

Side note - Indica I wouldn't let someone's opinions or comments run you off the board there are alot of good people here. Not everyone is going to always get along I have had my battles with people here but it's not worth getting upset over. I am learning to ignore the people who irritate me. Although I know you meant well by your post I wouldn't let the negative outshine the positive here. JMO


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

Uh Indica hun the ONLY ONLY way to -prove- game is in the box. Period. It not a topic that gets dicussed around here because of the legalities of it.

I think Jon is just wondering why you are concerned with it since you have a bully. Those of us with Bullies don't worry about game. hehe.

Well see ya if you leaving I guess.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

A RE/Gottti dog can be a great preformer if bred to standard and tested.
To say a "so called" game bred dog is any more game than a RE/Gotti dog is foolish. There are game dogs that don't produce game puppies at all. Since no one here admits to testing then it would make more sense to stop claiming one type of dog is game while another is not. 

Catch dog work is the only way to determine the true pit bull grit is there. Pulling a cart in a safe environment, or PP, or dock diving do not a game dog make!
Drive, pain tolerence, grit inspite of getting dragged and beat up...that is catchwork and that is a real test of heart.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Sadie the reason that these threads go south as you put it is becasue the people like their dogs are hot tempered and will always go down with a fight and keep on fighting until someone comes along asnd stops it. This is why we all must have a litttle tact and restraint with thse topics beasue to an outsider we are just giving them fuel for their fire that like the dog we are a bunch of unruly thugs too.


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## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

ok, maybe i'm a little late on this, i'm not going to comment, b/c imo, it doesn't matter what ur dog is ..as long as it's yours and you love it, i know what my dog is willing to do or not do, it doesn't make him any more or any less in my eyes..he is what he is and i love and accept that. 
but i just noticed reddog got the banned stick, what gives? (just being nosey)
(as i said, yea im late on alot of stuff)


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

chic4pits said:


> ok, maybe i'm a little late on this, i'm not going to comment, b/c imo, it doesn't matter what ur dog is ..as long as it's yours and you love it, i know what my dog is willing to do or not do, it doesn't make him any more or any less in my eyes..he is what he is and i love and accept that.
> but i just noticed reddog got the banned stick, what gives? (just being nosey)
> (as i said, yea im late on alot of stuff)


This topic is very important because there are breeders that claim to have game bred dogs yet they do not game test dogs. If people breed pit bulls strictly based on pedigrees and conformation the APBT becomes the Amstaff.
A working base is essential to preserving the temperment, heart, and stable foundation that the box brought to the APBT.

By the way reddogy is not the same person as reddog


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Please do not confuse Redog (Dave) with reddoggy.......they are as different as night and day. Dave is a super good person with only the dogs best interest at heart. Reddoggy has a bone to pick with everyone....to say the least.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Sampsons Dad said:


> This topic is very important because there are breeders that claim to have game bred dogs yet they do not game test dogs. If people breed pit bulls strictly based on pedigrees and conformation the APBT becomes the Amstaff.
> A working base is essential to preserving the temperment, heart, and stable foundation that the box brought to the APBT.
> 
> By the way reddogy is not the same person as reddog


I beg to differ with you on some of this post, Game dogs are proven in the box and in the box only, on the other hand Game bred dogs are bred just the same as game dogs and if wasn't against the law could become game dogs in the box, it don't make them Amstaff's in my eyes... Amstaff's are bred to not have any DA "dog aggression" game bred dogs are just as aggressive as game dogs, there is a big difference 

This is My take on it


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

Sampsons Dad said:


> A RE/Gottti dog can be a great preformer if bred to standard and tested.
> To say a "so called" game bred dog is any more game than a RE/Gotti dog is foolish. There are game dogs that don't produce game puppies at all. Since no one here admits to testing then it would make more sense to stop claiming one type of dog is game while another is not.
> 
> Catch dog work is the only way to determine the true pit bull grit is there. Pulling a cart in a safe environment, or PP, or dock diving do not a game dog make!
> Drive, pain tolerence, grit inspite of getting dragged and beat up...that is catchwork and that is a real test of heart.


Oh I know. I have a HEAVY gotty boy that is fairly hot, but in general they are much more docile a dog.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I have met quite a few Amstaffs that have DA.
There are dogs that have been game yet not dog Aggy.
There have been DA dogs that are not Game.
By the way my take on Game bred is not the same as most of the people here.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Marty said:


> I beg to differ with you on some of this post, Game dogs are proven in the box and in the box only, on the other hand Game bred dogs are bred just the same as game dogs and if wasn't against the law could become game dogs in the box, it don't make them Amstaff's in my eyes... Amstaff's are bred to not have any DA "dog aggression" game bred dogs are just as aggressive as game dogs, there is a big difference
> 
> This is My take on it


I agree Marty 100% I don't think you can take the orginal purpose of gameness and manipulate it any other way outside the orginal purpose from which it was originated. The only true way to test for gameness has been and always will be in the box I don't believe there is any other way around that if there were dogfighting would still be legal and people could test their dogs openly for gameness without speculating on what is and what it isn't.


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## Indica (Sep 23, 2008)

This thread was NEVER about my dog. I don't understand why she got dragged into it.

And why am I worried about?! Because I am an APBT enthusiast, that's why. Why do I want to talk about it? The same reason- it interests me. I know EXACTLY what gameness it. I wanted to hear other people's takes on the idea since the vast majority of us have never seen this trait in the flesh. 

It interests me because this trait goes against the most basic law of nature. The breed in this form is relatively young, so the idea that this could be seen so quickly is a testament to the power of selective breeding.


But that doesn't matter. Obviously, what matters is that nobody cares here.

I'm tired of being judged.


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## Indica (Sep 23, 2008)

Thanks everyone whose actually putting in good opinions, some of which I'd really like to respond to, but I'm just not in the mood anymore. :/


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I would love to see the true APBT being breed but it is illegal to test gameness like they did once upon a time. If fact if all the dogs were really gamebred just imagine what it would be like with all the tuff druggie dudes with dogs like that. Now then we have alot BSL on our hands. No thank you. I will leave breeding to other people and continue to take in rescues and hope that Chalice is a most prey driven dog I will ever own.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

I had a similar post going on my board and it went just fine. There is nothing wrong with talking about gameness as long as it's in past tense form.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

MY MIKADO said:


> I would love to see the true APBT being breed but it is illegal to test gameness like they did once upon a time. If fact if all the dogs were really gamebred just imagine what it would be like with all the tuff druggie dudes with dogs like that. Now then we have alot BSL on our hands. No thank you. I will leave breeding to other people and continue to take in rescues and hope that Chalice is a most prey driven dog I will ever own.


Good Point ! That's a scary thought as if we don't have enough BSL issues now adays just imagine these types of dogs getting into the wrong hands not good


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

MY MIKADO said:


> Please do not confuse Redog (Dave) with reddoggy.......they are as different as night and day. Dave is a super good person with only the dogs best interest at heart. Reddoggy has a bone to pick with everyone....to say the least.


I see along with dog bashing we have people bashing now.


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## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

MY MIKADO said:


> Please do not confuse Redog (Dave) with reddoggy.......they are as different as night and day. Dave is a super good person with only the dogs best interest at heart. Reddoggy has a bone to pick with everyone....to say the least.


muh-bad guys, as i said i'm always a day late and dollar short! just being nosey, na, i agree, it is important, imo, yall have described the 'drive' trait to a 'T' . ..i also agree that breeders SHOULD'NT breed for color, size, etc..(all thos cosmetic reasons ..it's just wrong) but i think the breed has come along way from the 'orginal' APBT. some in good ways some in bad ..(and i know i'll prb. catch some slack for this--and i'm SORRY GUYs) but JMO, it's just a peice of paper that has writtin' on it.
but to me, i just love my coacoa bean just the way he is. doesnt' matter to me what he has or doesn't have but i do know one thing tho, he can tree a squirrel with the best of them!!*laughs*


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## chic4pits (Aug 25, 2008)

MY MIKADO said:


> I would love to see the true APBT being breed but it is illegal to test gameness like they did once upon a time. If fact if all the dogs were really gamebred just imagine what it would be like with all the tuff druggie dudes with dogs like that. Now then we have alot BSL on our hands. No thank you. I will leave breeding to other people and continue to take in rescues and hope that Chalice is a most prey driven dog I will ever own.


yea i think of those dogs got into the wrong hands...we would have ourselfs a bigger prb. than we have now..(if that's possible)
and mikado, ur awsome for adopting! i will say yall have changed my mind about adopting, i think i should wait till kolby gets older, but it's sumfin' i'm all for now. (i know it's off the subject.)


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## MADBood (May 31, 2008)

I may have got a little heated on this thread earlier but never did I once say anything about being better than anyone. I took offense to the "go get a Lab for Christ sake" remark. So I apologize to the rest of the board for my immature retaliation that sparked this whole thread. Indica..I will be sure to stay out of your threads from now on.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> I agree Marty 100% I don't think you can take the orginal purpose of gameness and manipulate it any other way outside the orginal purpose from which it was originated. The only true way to test for gameness has been and always will be in the box I don't believe there is any other way around that if there were dogfighting would still be legal and people could test their dogs openly for gameness without speculating on what is and what it isn't.


Before the "game" was in the box the dog was a catch dog.
People would refer to bull baiting dogs as game if the took big hits and came back fearless...with broken legs and all beat up still moving toward a 1200 pound beast.

Now I don't advocate bull baiting...I only bring it up to show that the title game was bestowed upon an animal that raged on in the face of great peril...not fearing its own death ...just making the scratch at all costs.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Before the "game" was in the box the dog was a catch dog.
> People would refer to bull baiting dogs as game if the took big hits and came back fearless...with broken legs and all beat up still moving toward a 1200 pound beast.
> 
> Now I don't advocate bull baiting...I only bring it up to show that the title game was bestowed upon an animal that raged on in the face of great peril...not fearing it owne death ...just making the scratch at all costs.


You def make some interesting points here sampson


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

I've posted this before but I'll post it again in this thread...

*Gameness is not the willingness to continue fighting, in any definition. In short, gameness can somewhat be described by simply the willingness to continue, under all adversity and animosity, for the sake of improvement. However, in detail, the continuance is not to be misinterpreted as succeeding; being succeeded is the ultimate goal of gameness.

Gameness does not describe anything that is perfect, simply because there is no such thing. The strive for perfection can never quite be accomplished. But, for one to strive for near perfection, never falter on a decision made, learn from obstacles and implement the strengthening of weaknesses can be described as gameness.

The idea of gameness is to be fluent and to adapt to any task at hand.

Knowledge is knowing the path, experience is to understand it.

Gameness can not be achieved or grasped as it is not a title or an award. Gameness is a perspective and can only be perceived in a competitive event where learning from an opposing opponent is relevant.*


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Sounds pretty but I don't agree.
Gameness was never dependent on winning.
A dog can be dead game and lose...hence the term DEAD game.
Game is never refusing to scratch even when getting the worst of it.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

A wise man once said that "A game dog doesn't know defeat, He'd thought he'd won".


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

ericschevy said:


> A wise man once said that "A game dog doesn't know defeat, He'd thought he'd won".


:goodpost:


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

well, i dont care if my dog has "game" or not. I didnt get him for game, size, color, i got him for the simple fact i wanted a companion. the pit bull "american bully" whatever u want to say, since my dog is re.gotti. potrays strength and agility. they are loyal companions. dog fighting will still go on nevertheless. but its not a trait that I would like. i have 2 small children, that he could kill with one bite. yet he doesnt, its just amazing the fact that their so tough, yet so gentle. jmo.....


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

and btw i dont want a lab haha


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

vdubbinya said:


> well, i dont care if my dog has "game" or not. I didnt get him for game, size, color, i got him for the simple fact i wanted a companion. the pit bull "american bully" whatever u want to say, since my dog is re.gotti. potrays strength and agility. they are loyal companions. dog fighting will still go on nevertheless. but its not a trait that I would like.* i have 2 small children, that he could kill with one bite. yet he doesnt, its just amazing the fact that their so tough, yet so gentle.* jmo.....


Game bred dogs are known as nanny dogs also


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Sounds pretty but I don't agree.
> *Gameness was never dependent on winning.*A dog can be dead game and lose...hence the term DEAD game.
> Game is never refusing to scratch even when getting the worst of it.


That's the same thing Marty's post says.

"However, in detail, the *continuance is not to be misinterpreted as succeeding*; being *succeeded* is the ultimate goal of gameness."

This means the dog will continue, even when they're losing.

Being succeeded means that great dogs will come after this dog. They want to pass those genes to future generations.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

"Gameness is not the willingness to continue fighting"

I disagree with that statement.
Gameness as I know it is the almost retarted idea that regardless of my ability, condition, or injury I will still move toward the quarry/oponent
The will to keep moving forward regardless of situations and circumstances.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Can we say, Beating a dead horse! :hammer::stick:


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> Can we say, Beating a dead horse! :hammer::stick:


Well...i cant in good conscience beat a live horse!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

You haven't met some of the horses I have!! lol


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> You haven't met some of the horses I have!! lol


Im scared of horses...lol
I have had a Standard bred for years now and I still dont trust her!


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Well...i cant in good conscience beat a live horse!


And I will not say what I've done or witnessed in my 50 yrs lol

Your 35 right? out lawed what 32 yrs?
what exactly did you learn in 3yrs?


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Marty said:


> And I will not say what I've done or witnessed in my 50 yrs lol
> 
> Your 35 right? out lawed what 32 yrs?
> what exactly did you learn in 3yrs?


How to poopy in the potty!


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

^^ LOL ^^ 

Well, that is one of the most important of life's lessons...


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> ^^ LOL ^^
> 
> Well, that is one of the most important of life's lessons...


I only wear depends at night now!


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

How about an educated response?

How have you learnt what you know in 35 yrs?

And yes I'll be on depends soon I guess LOL


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Sampsons Dad your right I'm done with this thread... your the man I'm not here to aruge, your right on the subject so I'm through, I wouldn't know a game dog if it bit me in the a$$ 

Your the man sorry if I ever question your integrity, 35 yrs is a long a$$ time man


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Marty said:


> How about an educated response?
> 
> How have you learnt what you know in 35 yrs?
> 
> And yes I'll be on depends soon I guess LOL


I've learned that I know very little.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Naw your the man, please feel me in on what you know... I'm here to learn and I need your guidance... I really want to learn what I can about the breed


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Marty said:


> Sampsons Dad your right I'm done with this thread... your the man I'm not here to aruge, your right on the subject so I'm through, I wouldn't know a game dog if it bit me in the a$$
> 
> Your the man sorry if I ever question your integrity, 35 yrs is a long a$$ time man


You mean to tell me all those game bred dogs you own aren't really game bred dogs??? LMFAO Marty your a trip you own some of the baddest game bred dogs I have seen ... I am still waiting to come and meet the famous crew


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

If the thing has been illegal for 32 years how can you have game bred pit bulls?


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Marty said:


> Your the man sorry if I ever question your integrity, 35 yrs is a long a$$ time man


Why is my integrity in question Mr Marty?
I never said you are wrong I said I don't agree with your statement.
Am I allowed to have an opinion?:thumbsup:


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

There is a difference between game BRED dogs and GAME DOGS, JMO

by the way, this thread is going nowhere.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Sampsons Dad said:


> If the thing has been illegal for 32 years how can you have game bred pit bulls?


Come on now sd you know better than that... even though it's illegal to fight dogs game/game bred dogs are still being bred all over the world we both know that it's not uncommon to see game bred dogs today  They haven't gone extinct you know LOL  actual game tested dogs I am sure people still break the laws just like anything else but that's just speculation


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

SadieBlues said:


> Come on now sd you know better than that... even though it's illegal to fight dogs game/game bred dogs are still being bred all over the world we both know that it's not uncommon to see game bred dogs today  They haven't gone extinct you know LOL  actual game tested dogs I am sure people still break the laws but that's just speculation


You all probably know my definition of game bred ...but I guess since I am a no body in the breed my opinion is worth...as much as this post!


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

MY MIKADO said:


> Please do not confuse Redog (Dave) with reddoggy.......they are as different as night and day. Dave is a super good person with only the dogs best interest at heart. Reddoggy has a bone to pick with everyone....to say the least.


Wow, what happened to not saying anything personal about people?

Hey, I didn't make the rules...


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Here's my question..

It's always being said that the sport in the old days was not what it is now. Dogmen were gentlemen that loved their dogs. Dogs seldom died because a dogman didn't want to lose a good dog. Blah, blah, blah...

Well, if that's the case, how would anyone know if they have a game dog, much less DEAD GAME dog? I mean, shouldn't the "gentlemen" have stopped the match before they found out if they had a dog of that caliber?

Gameness is like UFO sightings. Many have claimed to see it, few (if any) actually have. There is enough rumor and speculation to keep the general public intrigued and searching for confirmation. And, if you ever find proof of existance, a government man is sure to come a-knockin.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> Here's my question..
> 
> It's always being said that the sport in the old days was not what it is now. Dogmen were gentlemen that loved their dogs. Dogs seldom died because a dogman didn't want to lose a good dog. Blah, blah, blah...
> 
> ...


:goodpost: And as far as dogmen loving their dogs, yes if they were game and/or had potential for it, if not, then I guess they culled them, out of love for the breed.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> Here's my question..
> 
> It's always being said that the sport in the old days was not what it is now. Dogmen were gentlemen that loved their dogs. Dogs seldom died because a dogman didn't want to lose a good dog. Blah, blah, blah...
> 
> ...


Sadly the romantic gentlemans sport was a lot of kaka.
There were some real stand up guys and then there were the money hungry fools that couldn't care less about a dog if it didn't win.

Some guys really cared and win or lose the dog that was game got bred.
On the other hand the jerks that didn't care would gat the dog and leave it if it lost. History just likes to remember the stand up guys.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

NesOne said:


> :goodpost: And as far as dogmen loving their dogs, yes if they were game and/or had potential for it, if not, then I guess they culled them, *out of love for the breed*.


I guess there lies the difference between days gone by, and today. In the old days, men loved the breed, but didn't necissarily care about Snoopy, Rufus, or ****** (individual dogs).

These days, everyone loves Snoopy, Rufus, and ****** (thier individual pets), but don't put as much care into the breed as a whole.


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## Phoenix (May 3, 2008)

Tha APBT is a multi talented breed.The"drive" and "heart" that this breed posseses in quantity are the direct cause of this ability.

Arguing about "there is only one way to see it" is being a bit short-sighted and does not answer the O.P.s question.

To phrase the question differently: How do we adapt the *drive*(which was honed in the 19th century) to our 21st century existence using the venues available?
I believe weight pull and wild boar hunting are good methods.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Sadly the romantic gentlemans sport was a lot of kaka.
> There were some real stand up guys and then there were the money hungry fools that couldn't care less about a dog if it didn't win.
> 
> Some guys really cared and win or lose the dog that was game got bred.
> On the other hand the jerks that didn't care would gat the dog and leave it if it lost. History just likes to remember the stand up guys.


Good post.

I've always thought dogmen of old were overly romantasized.

But, the breed wasn't as widespread back then, so I'm sure there weren't as many "kaka eaters" with these dogs then as compared to today.

It does make you question accounts from back then. I mean, if someone loved their dog, and it died in the pit, then they're going to make that dog sound as noble as possible when they tell that story. I know I would.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> Good post.
> 
> I've always thought dogmen of old were overly romantasized.
> 
> ...


kind of like old people exagerating their glory days!...lol
Sonny I had fity two girls every weekewnd!


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

smokey_joe said:


> Good post.
> 
> I've always thought dogmen of old were overly romantasized.
> 
> ...


kind of like old people exagerating their glory days!...lol
Sonny I had fity two girls every weekend!


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## GnarlyBlue (Aug 18, 2007)

I think that the modern APBT is a game "STYLE" dog, it was created for that purpose. and the drive and commitment that we all admire in our dogs is a direct result of that breeding. The latent tendancy {or sometimes overt} toward gameness is in there. It may be buried deeper in some than others but it's there.


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## Bully_Boy_Joe (Jul 7, 2008)

Madboods gone to? Whats going on?


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

i AN SENSING THE REIGNS ARE TIGHTENING AROUND HERE.


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## Taz (May 3, 2008)

"shakes head" and walks away


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## aussie pitbull (Feb 16, 2008)

what about hunting pigs and other type of big game,could that be used as a type of test
i know it isn't puting 2 dogs in a box but it still takes courage to go in there and fight a 100kg or as you guys might say 200 pound pig and not give up till told to release or do they do that because of old time dogs passing on some small part of their genetics(gameness),by the way im not really that keen on hunting myself but thats just me


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Thats how I see it Aussie.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

aussie pitbull said:


> what about hunting pigs and other type of big game,could that be used as a type of test
> i know it isn't puting 2 dogs in a box but it still takes courage to go in there and fight a 100kg or as you guys might say 200 pound pig and not give up till told to release or do they do that because of old time dogs passing on some small part of their genetics(gameness),by the way im not really that keen on hunting myself but thats just me


I guess it depends on the situation. How many hogs does the dog catch and 'hold', and for how long, before their owner comes and kills it? And does the dog eventually know that when he sees his owner coming, that he's pretty much done with 'that' job?

Compared to 2 dogs in a box, at the same weight going against each other until one doesn't cross the line, or their owner stops them, which I believe is pretty rare, unless it's after hours of them going at it, and the owner decides that his dog is game enough to keep alive, and pass on the trait.

If you were to take a dog that is excellent at catching hogs and put him in the box with a game dog, don't you think the hog hunting dog will eventually wonder why his owner isn't getting in to kill the other dog? And what type of mental anguish would that instill on him/her?


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

a fight almost never exceeded 30-45 minutes...those hour long matches were rare and imo probably showed the winner long before the hour mark. There will never be an exact duplicate of the box but catch work and bull baiting was part of the job description so I find catch work an acceptable test. I would not say it was game tested...but I say hunt tested or temperment tested.


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## aussie pitbull (Feb 16, 2008)

i've read of dogs in the top end (the top of Aust) fight pigs to the death cause the owners lost the dog in the scrub an the dog just kept going (that story was about a pitbull in a hunting mag called bacon busters) maybe just maybe theres still enough genetics of the gameness trait for us to see if we just look hard enough,and i know it still isn't 2 dogs in a box but weren't they put againts bulls and bears before they were put againts each other


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