# Long Term Effects of Spay/Neuter



## mcmlxxxvii (Jul 29, 2010)

certain areas of our county enacted a mandatory spay/neuter law for all pit bulls by the age of 4 months. my city isn't one of those areas, but it got me curious. is it even healthy for a puppy that young to get fixed? bella is 5 months now and i have been doing some reading to figure out when the best time to get her fixed would be. i read this article and thought it was pretty interesting.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

when did you guys get your dogs fixed and/or what's your opinion on the appropriate age to do so?


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

My opinion is, it is best to do it after the dog is at least 2 years old.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

I didn't read the whole thing, yet, but it seems that at a minimum you should wait until at least the dog is a year old to spay/neuter. Interesting. Thanks for posting the article. I had no idea of some of the risks associated with spay/neuter.

To add, I've also heard, though not from a reputable source, that you can stunt a dogs growth by spaying/neutering too young. Anyone know if there is any truth to that?


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## jmejiaa (Dec 8, 2009)

My vet said at about 7-8 months. I spayed at 7.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

No fixing of a dog until they are over 3 years of age if I cannot contain them properly.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> No fixing of a dog until they are over 3 years of age if I cannot contain them properly.


What are your reasons though? Does it have something to do with what is said in the article?


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

just got my female done at 7 months, it reduces the chance of mammary cancer by 85% if you do it before the first heat so for females i get it done early. males well i would wait till there round 3yrs and have developed as it doesn't really matter with them.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

I got Roxie spayed at 7 months. We didn't have any experience with unaltered dogs, so I just felt more comfortable doing it before she got into her first heat. I talked it over with the vet I had and she listed all the statistics everyone else will probably list here and that just made me feel even more comfortable in my decision to spay/neuter Roxie/Kane that early. Yeah, it slightly increases the odds for some cancers, but not enough that I'd feel it would be detrimental to my dogs health to do it early. You aren't a bad owner for doing it at 6-7-8 months -- it all comes down to preference.

EDIT: Wanted to add that my vet said when to spay/neuter is really up in the air, even now, with the veterinary academy because some vets are sticking to the traditional 6 months age and others are looking at some of the current studies and saying it should be done when both sexes reach maturity. Unfortunately, there simply haven't been ENOUGH studies done to say for sure which is better than the other.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

wild_deuce03 said:


> What are your reasons though? Does it have something to do with what is said in the article?


I have seen first hand that early neutering a dog will not change behavior or decrease agression or marking. I am not sure with females and I gotta read more about it but nature gave mamals sex hormones to develop their bodies properly, if you take those away while the body is still developing it can cause problems.

I have read a publication that showed a control study of dogs getting bone cancer, growling taller, having orthopedic issues as well as irritable temperament from fixing.

I know why vets and the HSUS push neutering or spaying the dogs and I agree with it. Too many people can't contain their pets or too many backyard breeders breeding dogs crowding the shelters. However, a surgery is not a quick fix and people need to understand taht every dog is different.

I know a lady in FL who is member of many of the forums who has 6 or more APBT, 2 staffies, a JRT and a Patterdale. All working dogs that compete in events and none of them are fixed. She manages her pack with no problem and all of her dogs are healthy, and she is also all about homeophatic medicine.

Bernie is not fixed and he has never marked in my house or anyone's house that I have brought him to. He gets along with every dog and every cat he meets. I think training, socialization and breeding is what is the most important.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

wild_deuce03 said:


> To add, I've also heard, though not from a reputable source, that you can stunt a dogs growth by spaying/neutering too young. Anyone know if there is any truth to that?


I have read the opposite. I'm not sure about females, but with males the article I read mentioned:

"*Dogs neutered before puberty (generally age 6 months) tend to grow a bit bigger than dogs neutered after puberty (testosterone is involved in the causing bones to stop growing so without testosterone the bones stop growing later)."*

Pulled from: Canine Neuter


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

That's really interesting Nes maybe that's why Dosia got so freakin tall. I mean dang he's 25in from the ground to his front shoulder. Dosia was neutered around 5 months I think.
Marley was neutered at around 4 months and he just hit his 10th birthday and is in amazing shape for a dog his age. His sister on the other hand was spayed at the same time and has arthritis, and just had to have a tumor removed from the outside of her ribs, not really sure if that has anything to do with it.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

The older the better I would say till at least after 2 years old for both sexes. The dog need those hormones to mature properly and just recently I have changed my opinion on this. I do have several dogs who no longer need to be intact and I am fine with getting them fixed now that they are older, the risk of Pyo it too great when the bitches get too old. JMO


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> The older the better I would say till at least after 2 years old for both sexes. The dog need those hormones to mature properly and just recently I have changed my opinion on this. I do have several dogs who no longer need to be intact and I am fine with getting them fixed now that they are older, the risk of Pyo it too great when the bitches get too old. JMO


What changed your mind on this issue?


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## Atlanta Bully Rescue (Nov 11, 2010)

Since 1999, I have assisted and/or scheduled probably a thousand pediatric spays and neuters for puppies and kittens as young as 6-12 weeks old including most of my own pets. I currently work at a lowcost spay/neuter clinic. I've never had anyone complain that it caused health problems later on. Puppies and kittens actually recover a lot faster, they're literally running around that night like nothing ever happened while the adults can take days to recover. Unfixed dogs are also much more likely to get loose looking for a mate. And studies have actually shown that males neutered as puppies are on average an inch taller, so no it does not stunt their growth. Here are some links about pediatric spays and neuters:

Early Age Neutering: Perfect For Every Practice


> " In the pre-pubescent, the discoveries you will find in surgery, without exception, are: 1. Less bleeding, 2. Excellent visualization, 3. Elastic tissue for easy ligature placement, 4. Everything in miniature and prepubescent; therefore, less stitching and less time is required., 5. Fewer drugs are required., 6. Quicker recoveries with less patient discomfort, 7. Near zero complication, 8. Less healing time"


Early Spay/neuter


> " The younger patients recover faster and have fewer surgical and post-surgical complications than their older counterparts. There is very little to no body fat to contend with, the incision is smaller, surgery time is reduced and recovery time is very short. The research available on the physical, behavioral, short and long-term effects of prepubescent neutering in dogs and cats shows no adverse results. Based on this information, the American Humane Association supports this practice as a feasible solution to decreasing pet overpopulation and the tragedy of resulting deaths. Early sterilization practices are also endorsed by the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Animal Hospital Association and the California Veterinary Medical Association."


Early Sterilization in Dogs and Cats


> "Another source of resistance to early spay-neuter programs is concern that prepubertal removal of the gonads will result in obesity, urinary incontinence, stunted growth, behavioral abnormalities and other such problems. Some of these conditions are associated with gonadectomy, but there is little evidence to support the contention that risk is elevated by early gonadectomy per se."


Early Spay/Neuter: An Overview


> "These studies report that anesthetizing 6- to 7-week-old puppies and kittens was uneventful. Spays are reported to be easier and faster at 6 to 7 weeks than at 6 to 7 months because there is little subcutaneous fat to hinder entrance to the abdominal cavity and the lack of vasculature reduces hemorrhage. Finding organs was no harder than on the older animal. The speed of castrations at 6 to 7 weeks and at 6 to 7 months is the same, and the testicles are easier to remove and break down. Finally, the younger animals recovered faster and with less pain."


Spay & Neuter - ESP - Early Sterilization Program


> "Questions regarding the appropriate age to perform gonadectomy and the safety of anesthetizing young puppies have been addressed and published. One study comparing the effects of neutering puppies at 7 weeks to those neutered at 7 months, found that neutering at either age produced similar effects on physical, skeletal and behavioral development. Neutering did NOT affect food intake or weight gain. Neutering did NOT result in inactivity or lethargy, in fact, all neutered dogs were assessed by their caretakers to be more active than their sexually intact counterpart. They also found that prepuberal gonadectomy does NOT stunt growth; indeed, it contributes to growth enhancement. Bone growth ceases when the physiological growth plates "close." This closure is delayed about one month with prepuberal neutering resulting in forelimb bones growing a fraction of an inch longer than those of the un-neutered pups."


Dog Owner's Guide: Early sterilization surgery


> "A spayed bitch doesn't get cancer of the reproductive tract or drip blood on the floor during estrous periods. A neutered male doesn't get cancer of the reproductive tract and is more likely to stay at home instead of wandering in search of a lady friend."


Compelling Arguments for Early Spay and Neuter of Cats


> "The evidence seems clear that early spay and neuter is not only safe for the youngsters, but that the procedure produces less tissue trauma, is less stressful, provides a shorter recovery period, with a lower risk of complications. On the other hand, no working studies are available to support the appropriateness of waiting the traditional period."


Pet Orphans - Atlanta's Dog and Cat Adoption Website


> "Pediatric, or Early Spay/Neuter, refers to spaying or neutering pets at a much earlier age than the old six to nine month standard. With today's anesthetics, advanced monitoring equipment, and surgical techniques, not only are these procedures safe in young puppies and kittens, the risk of complication is lower and the recovery period shorter than in mature pets. Concerns about adverse effects have now been proven unfounded. The American Veterinary Medical Association, the Humane Society of the United States, the Association of Spay/Neuter Veterinarians, and the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Georgia, are among those that support early spay/neuter. "


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## mcmlxxxvii (Jul 29, 2010)

thanks for the replies guys. 



wild_deuce03 said:


> I didn't read the whole thing, yet, but it seems that at a minimum you should wait until at least the dog is a year old to spay/neuter. Interesting. Thanks for posting the article. I had no idea of some of the risks associated with spay/neuter.
> 
> To add, I've also heard, though not from a reputable source, that *you can stunt a dogs growth by spaying/neutering too young*. Anyone know if there is any truth to that?


i have also heard this, but i have also heard what nes wrote. lol... 



davidfitness83 said:


> I have seen first hand that early neutering a dog will not change behavior or decrease agression or marking. I am not sure with females and I gotta read more about it but nature gave mamals sex hormones to develop their bodies properly, if you take those away while the body is still developing it can cause problems.
> 
> I have read a publication that showed a control study of dogs getting bone cancer, growling taller, having orthopedic issues as well as irritable temperament from fixing.
> 
> ...


:clap::clap::clap::clap:

i have a reason for all the clapping, lol. ok, here goes...

link to what i'm talking about: http://www.sbcounty.gov/bosd1/viewer/attachment.ashx?ID=0f0f21d7-b573-4994-8255-1c5986242b22

one of the main reasons i wanted to ask about this and did my research is because the mandatory spay/neuter seemed like a load of bullcrap to me. the public announcement on my county website FIRST says:

""*This ordinance has the objectives of* reducing the clear overpopulation of pit bulls in our County,
encouraging responsible pet ownership and, *most important, reducing the number of vicious attacks on
people*," said First District Supervisor Brad Mitzelfelt, who worked with the County's Animal Care &
Control Division to create the ordinance. "*In the past five years, four people in San Bernardino County
have been killed by this breed, and just this year there have been seven attacks by pit bulls. No other
breed has viciously attacked or killed anyone in that time."*"

Then makes a comment about this NOT being about a 'vicious breed' and instead is about overpopulation.

"*State law (California Health and Safety Code Sections 122330-122331) prohibits any breed of dog from
being deemed potentially dangerous or vicious. However, the law allows local agencies to enact breedspecific
programs for spaying and neutering to control over-population.*
Pit bull-type dogs represent about 20 percent of all dogs admitted to county animal shelters. They are one
of the top three breeds impounded at county shelters and are the number one breed to be euthanized."

um, what???? 
1. the county's aim is to reduce vicious attacks by spaying/neutering the breed that's _apparently_ "vicious"....but the law (as they quoted) says they're prohibited from outright calling a breed "vicious"? isn't that what they're saying without just flat out saying it? lol 
2. if pit bulls were the #1 breed to be impounded, then why wouldn't they say that? this makes me wonder what the other two breeds are, as well as which is #1, and why those didn't receive a mandatory spay/neuter law. is it maybe because the other two aren't the "vicious" ones? 
3. i also like how they said the law prohibits them from deeming a breed vicious *HOWEVER* they can use the overpopulation excuse instead. they're basically admitting they're using a loophole. 

another part of the county's letter says:

""The most important component to increasing the safety of our residents in relation to pit bulls is
responsible pet care," said Supervisor Mitzelfelt. "I hope one result of today's ordinance will be increased
awareness of the danger that results when dogs are not cared for correctly.""

i don't understand this. are they implying that we're all irresponsible and cannot properly maintain our dogs? the irresponsible owners they are targeting aren't even following this law! a responsible owner would question another's motives when it comes to their pet/family member. i'm not going to fix my dog at 4 months without being responsible and making sure it is safe in relation to her health. when dogs aren't cared for correctly? the county doesn't even seem to care about our dogs well-being so what is this nonsense? :flush:

either way we are stuck with this law, for now. so i also noticed that a vet can give you an exemption for a valid medical reason. so out of curiosity i asked my vet if the mandatory 4 months of age was reasonable. i asked questions from what i researched and was basically laughed at. she told me it's perfectly safe, nothing to worry about, done all the time, the sooner the better, etc. i then received a mini-lecture about the law and that it is for bella's own protection and well-being.

personally, i feel like getting her fixed this early could have detrimental effects to her health. a vet doesn't think so. so much for a health exemption. :thumbsup::hammer:

sorry i wrote a novel. lol


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## mcmlxxxvii (Jul 29, 2010)

wild_deuce03 said:


> I didn't read the whole thing, yet, but it seems that at a minimum you should wait until at least the dog is a year old to spay/neuter. Interesting. Thanks for posting the article. I had no idea of some of the risks associated with spay/neuter.
> 
> To add, I've also heard, though not from a reputable source, that you can stunt a dogs growth by spaying/neutering too young. Anyone know if there is any truth to that?





davidfitness83 said:


> I have seen first hand that early neutering a dog will not change behavior or decrease agression or marking. I am not sure with females and I gotta read more about it but nature gave mamals sex hormones to develop their bodies properly, if you take those away while the body is still developing it can cause problems.
> 
> I have read a publication that showed a control study of dogs getting bone cancer, growling taller, having orthopedic issues as well as irritable temperament from fixing.
> 
> ...





Atlanta Bully Rescue said:


> Since 1999, I have assisted and/or scheduled probably a thousand pediatric spays and neuters for puppies and kittens as young as 6-12 weeks old including most of my own pets. I currently work at a lowcost spay/neuter clinic. I've never had anyone complain that it caused health problems later on. Puppies and kittens actually recover a lot faster, they're literally running around that night like nothing ever happened while the adults can take days to recover. Unfixed dogs are also much more likely to get loose looking for a mate. And studies have actually shown that males neutered as puppies are on average an inch taller, so no it does not stunt their growth. Here are some links about pediatric spays and neuters:
> 
> Early Age Neutering: Perfect For Every Practice
> 
> ...


i just looked at the first four websites and saw that their sources are all from about 10-18 years ago. newer studies have shown different. not sure which is right though, obviously.  even vets are up in the air on it.

edit: actually all of the ones that listed sources were over 10-18 years ago. the most recent i saw was 2000/2001. the cat ladies article on about.com i wouldn't even consider since she's just a writer who took some feline anatomy courses. always helpful reads though.


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## Atlanta Bully Rescue (Nov 11, 2010)

mcmlxxxvii said:


> i just looked at the first four websites and saw that their sources are all from about 10-18 years ago. newer studies have shown different. not sure which is right though, obviously.  even vets are up in the air on it.


You're right, I've been using these articles for a long time and I need to update my list  I'm also going by personal experience of working at shelters and spay/neuter clinics where I've dealt with pediatric spays/neuters on almost a daily basis for the past 10+ years. I've worked with many vets and everyone of them was a supporter of pediatric spays and neuters. They say the surgeries are much easier therefore the puppies/kittens have to be under anesthesia for a significantly less amount of time. They also recover a lot faster with less complications. Here are a couple of more recent articles I found on a quick google search and I'll do some more in depth research in the next week and get some more:

wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2010_V273.pdf
"There are several advantages to pediatric spay/neuter. In addition to the commonly accepted health benefits associated with ovariohysterectomy and castration, pediatric spay/neuter offers additional advantages. It is an effective tool in dealing with the overpopulation of unwanted dogs and cats. The surgical procedures are easier, faster, and less expensive. The incidence of perioperative complications is low as the surgical procedures and, thus, the anesthetic episodes, are significantly shorter. Anesthetic recovery and healing time is shorter."
"Obesity is a multi-factorial problem with a tendency to occur regardless of the age an animal is spayed. A long-term study conducted at Cornell found a decrease in obesity for both male and female dogs that had undergone pediatric ovariohysterectomy.
Initial concerns that pediatric spay/neuter may result in stunted growth have proven to be false. Removal of the hormonal influence actually results in a delayed closure of growth plates. The long bones of animals that undergo pediatric spay/neuter are actually a little longer than those of animals neutered after 6 months of age. There is no clinical significance to the delayed physeal closure.
Some have questioned if early age spay neuter results in an increased incidence of hip dysplasia. Research on this has proven to be equivocal. A study at Texas A&M has shown no increase in hip dysplasia, while a study at Cornell showed a slight increase in incidence. Interestingly, the Cornell study also showed that dogs sterilized at a traditional age were 3 times more likely to be euthanized due to hip dysplasia. This suggests that if early-age gonadectomy increases the incidence of hip dysplasia it may be a less severe form."

Early Spay And Neuter | MyPetsDoctor.com
"Mammary gland tumor growth in dogs and cats is greatly influenced by failure to remove the source of sex hormone from the patient while young. Dogs and cats spayed before their first heat cycle have a virtually zero risk of mammary cancer later in life. Those spayed after the first heat cycle still experience a significantly reduced incidence of mammary cancer. After the second heat cycle the beneficial effect is dramatically reduced. However, as you will see further down in this article, benefit is still achieved by having one's pet spayed at almost any age."
"Another hormone-driven problem un-spayed dogs and cats suffer is infection of the uterus, called pyometra. The term derives from the Latin prefix pyo-, which means "pus," and root metra, which means uterus. "Pus in the uterus" is the most extreme form of the disease, and is life-threatening.
The process usually starts with irregular heat cycles or a condition called pseudopregnancy, in which hormone imbalances cause the uterus to "think" it is pregnant and begin to accumulate fluid to accommodate the pregnancy. In the best case, hormone levels return to normal within sixty days and the fluid is reabsorbed into the body. Pseudopregnancy is likely to recur on future heat cycles.
The worst case is that cysts occur in the ovaries(see photo below, pencil points to cyst in ovary) and continue to produce an imbalance of hormones which maintain the fluid in the uterus. If bacteria from the vaginal vault ascend, pass the cervix and enter the nutrient-rich fluid, infection results. Fecal bacteria are the most common motile bacteria to achieve success and cause the worst infections. Fecal bacteria also produce toxins, thus poisoning the already-infected female dog or cat, and adding to the illness the pet experiences.
In the pictures you see below the uterus of this 11-year old Chihuahua is enlarged to approximately six times normal size. The uterus is fluid-filled and thin-walled. If not handled gingerly during surgical removal the uterus could easily rupture.
In more advanced cases pus (infection) may fill the uterus like a balloon, expanding it to twenty times normal size. If such a uterus bursts, spilling its toxin-heavy load of infection into the abdominal cavity, fast and expert emergency surgery must be performed to save the patient's life."


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## mcmlxxxvii (Jul 29, 2010)

Atlanta Bully Rescue said:


> You're right, I've been using these articles for a long time and I need to update my list  I'm also going by personal experience of working at shelters and spay/neuter clinics where I've dealt with pediatric spays/neuters on almost a daily basis for the past 10+ years. I've worked with many vets and everyone of them was a supporter of pediatric spays and neuters. They say the surgeries are much easier therefore the puppies/kittens have to be under anesthesia for a significantly less amount of time. They also recover a lot faster with less complications. Here are a couple of more recent articles I found on a quick google search and I'll do some more in depth research in the next week and get some more:
> 
> wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2010_V273.pdf
> "There are several advantages to pediatric spay/neuter. In addition to the commonly accepted health benefits associated with ovariohysterectomy and castration, pediatric spay/neuter offers additional advantages. It is an effective tool in dealing with the overpopulation of unwanted dogs and cats. The surgical procedures are easier, faster, and less expensive. The incidence of perioperative complications is low as the surgical procedures and, thus, the anesthetic episodes, are significantly shorter. Anesthetic recovery and healing time is shorter."
> ...


thanks! it is late so i will have to read through this stuff tomorrow.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I think it comes down to responsible ownership if you know your dog can get a household dog knocked up or your dog can easily escape and get another dog pregnant than fix the dog. 

I have neutered two dogs that showed no sign of improvements of behavior at all. Dog aggression is coded into the breed DNA and surgery won't take that away. Marking inside the home is lack of house training. My intact dog is more stable and more obedient than both dogs that I neutered. In fact up to this day he has never peed inside our home or his crate and I got him at 8 weeks of age.


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## wild_deuce03 (Aug 14, 2010)

Well, I guess I have some reading to do before I make a decision on when to spay Athena.  My yard is fenced in, but I'd hate to have her get out and get pregnant. I'm vigilant about the gates but stuff happens. Either way, Duke will be getting neutered soon!!! I would hate for him to get Athena pregnant!!!!

My neighbor has a mutt (intact) chained up out back and they also have a female pit/lab mix (at leat that's what it looks like). The poor dog isn't even a year yet and just had a litter of puppies a couple weeks ago,  , because they just leave them out by themselves all the time!!!


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

As long as you have control of your dogs and they are not left alone in the yard you are ok. My dog can easily hop the fence if he really wanted to but I never leave unattended in the yard so I dont worry. Inside the home he is crated and there are no females for him to get pregnat. When we go out on walks he has heavy duty gear so he would have to break it which is impossible for him to get away.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

wild_deuce03 said:


> Well, I guess I have some reading to do before I make a decision on when to spay Athena.  My yard is fenced in, but I'd hate to have her get out and get pregnant. I'm vigilant about the gates but stuff happens. Either way, Duke will be getting neutered soon!!! I would hate for him to get Athena pregnant!!!!
> 
> My neighbor has a mutt (intact) chained up out back and they also have a female pit/lab mix (at leat that's what it looks like). The poor dog isn't even a year yet and just had a litter of puppies a couple weeks ago,  , because they just leave them out by themselves all the time!!!


i say get her fixed, a bitch in heat will hop a 10" fence like its nothing and i know you don't want to deal with that


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## Atlanta Bully Rescue (Nov 11, 2010)

For anyone interested in spaying and neutering their pit bulls, PBRC offers financial assistance to people all over the world. They pay the vet directly for the surgery. All you have to do is fill out this short form: Pit Bull Rescue Central


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

not to mention I've seen dogs tie through a chain link fence before, dog didn't even have to jump the fence a stray just came along and got it done then the owner came out and had to figure out how to get them apart.... no fun XD


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## Elvisfink (Oct 13, 2008)

Here's two more links regarding early Spay-Neuter considerations. I usually don't do my males until about 5 but, I do my females early because I don't want an accident to happen plus I hate the mess. Although I do regret getting Ivy spayed.

Spaying the Canine Athlete

To Spay or Neuter


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## brandileigh080 (Mar 9, 2010)

Aireal said:


> not to mention I've seen dogs tie through a chain link fence before, dog didn't even have to jump the fence a stray just came along and got it done then the owner came out and had to figure out how to get them apart.... no fun XD


Hey, I've seen that happen before aslo!! 
My neighbor has a full bred boxer. Last year she went into heat for the first time and a (stray)great dane mix locked up with her. No one would have known if he didn't start yelping. It took forever trying to get them apart.
She went and had an emergency spay immediately after.

It just goes to show how determined some are!!!


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I don't think I'll ever leave a male intact, and I wouldn't want to wait till over a year either. My reasons are intact males are always trouble when the smell a female in heat. Mack Truck was the worst and I wish Ryan would have neutered him when M.J. got spayed. He was horrible. He would constantly whine at the door, try to escape when he was outside and the worst ever was humping the air. He would just stand in the middle of the yard with his stuff all hanging out. It was way gross and I don't want any more dogs to do it.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

kg420 said:


> I don't think I'll ever leave a male intact, and I wouldn't want to wait till over a year either. My reasons are intact males are always trouble when the smell a female in heat. Mack Truck was the worst and I wish Ryan would have neutered him when M.J. got spayed. He was horrible. He would constantly whine at the door, try to escape when he was outside and the worst ever was humping the air. He would just stand in the middle of the yard with his stuff all hanging out. It was way gross and I don't want any more dogs to do it.


very true and with a female you have to deal with them BEING in heat, acting all weird bleedin all over the place, i swear any dog we have go through a heat with us would always LOVE to start when sitting in your lap, you would look down and "well lovely blood all over my new jeans" it's pretty gross :hammer:


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## mcmlxxxvii (Jul 29, 2010)

thanks for all the helpful info/opinions!

& thanks ABR for the links!


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I had my pup spayed at 5 months, a couple weeks shy of her 6 month birthday. Why? Because she had severe demodedic mange and from all the research I had done, it said it was best to spay them before their first heat, as a female with demo mange going into heat is very stressful on their bodies. Also I was always taught that 6 to 8 months was appropriate. I would never spay or neuter a dog younger than 5 months. I would not have had her spayed so soon if it were not for the mange problem.


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

My vet told me 6 months was the best time. I don't have to worry about Beia having pups,cause Bruno is fixed,and they never get out without me being there...So i don't really HAVE to get her spayed,I just want to...cause you never know.


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## jayandlacy (Sep 21, 2009)

I have chosen to leave all of my dogs intact. I have had 3 males and they all have kept their parts. I think that the risk of getting the cancer in the man parts is so small it isn't worth it. I have seen many dogs gain tooo much weight from being fixed, and I cannot deprive my dogs of food just to keep them not fat. I would have gotten them fixed-maybe, but Jay is very against it, and I will not go behind his back and do it, it isn't that important to me.

I have read in many places that you should at least wait until they are a year old, but that if possible you should wait until atleast 2 so they fully develope, which requires hormones they get from all their parts, missing part=missing something else somewhere, which could just be growth....who knows.


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## Luvum (Nov 11, 2010)

My dog Gracie is a rescue who was spayed at 11 weeks after being removed from her previous owners. I had never heard of spaying that young, but both the shelter I adopted her from and her current vet didn't think it was too young.

She is almost 10 months old now and has experienced a couple of episodes of urinating in her sleep. After a vet check to rule out a UTI, it was determined to be spay incontinence. 

Apparently it is very common in spayed females. The lack of estrogen in their bodies weakens the pelvic floor muscles allowing "leaks" to occur.
Gracie will need to be on an estrogen supplement (Diethylstilbestrol -DES) the rest of her life.

I believe the jury's still out on whether spay incontinence is more prevalent in pediatric spays or not.

Yes, there are risks when it comes to spaying/neutering our pets, but the benefit of knowing I won't accidentally be contributing to the addition of more unwanted puppies and cats into this world is a risk I am willing to take.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

Luvum said:


> Yes, there are risks when it comes to spaying/neutering our pets, but the benefit of knowing I won't accidentally be contributing to the addition of more unwanted puppies and cats into this world is a risk I am willing to take.


And is there a benefit to feeding your dog meds for the rest of her life? I would rather pay for the pill/shot that terminates the pregnancy than paying for the estrogen supplement for the rest of her life.

I'm skeptical of all the foreign things we human give to our dogs, and then we wonder why or how they developed cancer or diseases/problems.

Based on your experience, I think validates waiting until they develop the "normal" way before cutting them open.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

NesOne said:


> And is there a benefit to feeding your dog meds for the rest of her life? I would rather pay for the pill/shot that terminates the pregnancy than paying for the estrogen supplement for the rest of her life.
> 
> I'm skeptical of all the foreign things we human give to our dogs, and then we wonder why or how they developed cancer or diseases/problems.
> 
> Based on your experience, I think validates waiting until they develop the "normal" way before cutting them open.


Not to get off the subject but most vets are unreal.

My brother's rescue dog was brought to get the low cost spay program, I am pretty sure they gave the poor dog another rabies shot when my brother specifically told the shelter he had already done it a week before.

Then my sister in law takes the dog to the vet, they are trying to tell her that Canidae is really bad for the dog because of the protein levels and that it will make the dog fat. Then they write her out a prescription for SCIENCE DIET lol

By the way look how fat this dog is:










THen I have more lol.. the vet recommends a teeth cleaning which means putting the dog under anasthetics again within the same month and also recommended given the poor dog the bordetall vaccine in one week even though they just found she has it now and she is on meds for it.

Talk about trying to steal newbie dog owner's money and hurting a poor dog in the process...


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

I've had dogs for 22 yrs all but 2 were neutered or spayed and I've never had any problem ..........


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

three of my cats got fat when spayed two of these are dead now other than that they lived very long without problems. My newest cat is the only one ive seen not get big shes still tiny. My sisters pug was cut but hes still very active and I dont think hes fat for a pug at all. I walked the  out of him and he kept up just fine. My dog will be cut once hes older I dont think theres anything wrong with it imo.

As for the vet I guess it just depends on each vet I have a pretty good one cause they dont do alot of these stuff people say they have experienced but maybe I just got lucky


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

Its diet which makes them fat ..... I can show you 7 think cats all neutered and spayed early the oldest being 18 yrs old, had one pass away from renal failure 23 yrs old.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

My one kitty Khloe got tremendously fat, she looks like a miniture kitten Buddah  her brother is in monster muscular shape and they were fixed back to back. My queen Tara was fixed two years ago and she is in perfect shape, I guess it depends on the anima.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> THen I have more lol.. the vet recommends a teeth cleaning which means putting the dog under anasthetics again within the same month and also recommended given the poor dog the bordetall vaccine in one week even though they just found she has it now and she is on meds for it.Talk about trying to steal newbie dog owner's money and hurting a poor dog in the process...


 Red- if the dog needs a dental it can be life changing to have the excess tarter/plaque build up removed that will poor bacteria into a dogs body effecting the heart and lungs and other organ so this is unreasonable

Purple- by giving a borditella vac to a dog that has already been infected you can reduce recovery time by half

Sorry David but I believe the vet if they say this is what is needed not that they are just trying to get money. It sounds like they gave completely reasonable advice IMO


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK (Oct 6, 2010)

well not sure about that since all my cats got the same diet but ya all lived long except the one that got killed by dogs


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Aireal said:


> Red- if the dog needs a dental it can be life changing to have the excess tarter/plaque build up removed that will poor bacteria into a dogs body effecting the heart and lungs and other organ so this is unreasonable
> 
> Purple- by giving a borditella vac to a dog that has already been infected you can reduce recovery time by half
> 
> Sorry David but I believe the vet if they say this is what is needed not that they are just trying to get money. It sounds like they gave completely reasonable advice IMO


So if the dog's inmune system is currently battling the infection it is ok to introduce more of it or possibly a different strain during this period? I don't see how that makes any sense, a vaccine is simply a modified version of the virus or a dead virus that stimulates the inmune system to come up with the antibodies for this. If the body is already infected and weakened I don't see the benefit, plus the dog just got surgery last week. If you over stress the inmune system enough the dog can even get mange, it happened to my friend's staff with over vaccination.

A good diet could be the answer, I will have my dog's teeth cleaned but when he is older around 6 or so, this shelter dog is only 2 or 3. Since this was a shelter dog with a terrible diet perhaps a raw diet even raw bones to chew is much better in my opinion than putting this dog down again in the same month. I understand bad teeth in humans or dogs can be very harmful but I know for a fact the right diet and chewing toys/bones can make a huge difference.

I am sure if they are prescribing one of the worst feeds in the market they are going after it for the money.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

i have 4 cats and non are fat, but they only get fed 1/2 a cup once a day, i see indoor cats living to 18-20 ALL the time, fat cats don't make it as far though


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

DueceAddicTed said:


> I've had dogs for 22 yrs all but 2 were neutered or spayed and I've never had any problem ..........


Were they neutered/spayed before 6 months of age?



Aireal said:


> Red- if the dog needs a dental it can be life changing to have the excess tarter/plaque build up removed that will poor bacteria into a dogs body effecting the heart and lungs and other organ so this is unreasonable
> 
> Purple- by giving a borditella vac to a dog that has already been infected you can reduce recovery time by half
> 
> Sorry David but I believe the vet if they say this is what is needed not that they are just trying to get money. It sounds like they gave completely reasonable advice IMO


So you think that the prescription for Science Diet was reasonable too? I'm the type of person that once you try and play me, the rest that comes out of your mouth is blah blah blah, so I would not have even heard the rest of the vet's "recommendations/prescriptions".


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

NesOne said:


> Were they neutered/spayed before 6 months of age?
> 
> So you think that the prescription for Science Diet was reasonable too? I'm the type of person that once you try and play me, the rest that comes out of your mouth is blah blah blah, so I would not have even heard the rest of the vet's "recommendations/prescriptions".


I just tune my vet out after she starts talking about neutering Bernie. :roll:


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> So if the dog's inmune system is currently battling the infection it is ok to introduce more of it or possibly a different strain during this period? I don't see how that makes any sense, a vaccine is simply a modified version of the virus or a dead virus that stimulates the inmune system to come up with the antibodies for this. If the body is already infected and weakened I don't see the benefit, plus the dog just got surgery last week. If you over stress the inmune system enough the dog can even get mange, it happened to my friend's staff with over vaccination.
> 
> A good diet could be the answer, I will have my dog's teeth cleaned but when he is older around 6 or so, this shelter dog is only 2 or 3. Since this was a shelter dog with a terrible diet perhaps a raw diet even raw bones to chew is much better in my opinion than putting this dog down again in the same month. I understand bad teeth in humans or dogs can be very harmful but I know for a fact the right diet and chewing toys/bones can make a huge difference.
> 
> I am sure if they are prescribing one of the worst feeds in the market they are going after it for the money.


ok so I will agree with you on the dental as I have not seen the teeth (some DO need a dental that young but normally you see it most with greyhounds and poodles) at that age for the most part getting a good dry kibble and regular bones to chew can help clean the teeth naturally. My suggestion (again without seeing the teeth) would be to wait 6 months and within that time if they dogs mouth did not vastly improve then consider the dental.

as far as prescribing the food most don't like it with the new fad food that are coming about all natural and what have you, but science diet is the original veterinary diet that is a fixed formula (meaning every bag is the same) you must understand most vets are not properly trained on alot of the newer diets so all they see when they here you feed TOTW or what have you is that they are not familiar (have not been trained by the company on it) therefore it must be a non fixed formula which is not good for a dogs system. They have been fighting kibbles and bits and ol roy so long at this point it truly is there food otherwise they think your feeding crap. Maybe this is change in the future maybe not but I for one have benefited for these "veterinary" diets and have seen many others do so as well. (FYI I am not getting into a nutrition argument as they made me mad enough to cut someone lol)

however with the borditella it has been proven to reduce the average 12 weeks recovery to 6 weeks so weather you choose to believe it or not that has been proven and to be opposed to that well then fine that just leaves you with that much longer to deal with a snotty coughing dog obviously as you being the owner that is completely your choose.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

davidfitness83 said:


> I just tune my vet out after she starts talking about neutering Bernie. :roll:


:rofl: Yup. The 1st time I took Smokey for his rabies shot they asked me if I wanted to bring in a stool sample for them to "test" it. I asked what do you test for, and his response was "for any abnormalities". Yeah, and I bet they would have told me, "If we don't call you, then everything is fine". Nice, quick, & easy $36 for them.

The 2nd time I went I told him "I'm here for his rabies shot ONLY". The vet was kind of hesitant to mention that my boy was kind of the skinny side 

Their scale had said he weighed 62 lbs., doesn't sound skinny to me.


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

Aireal said:


> ...they are not familiar (*have not been trained by the company on it*) therefore it must be a non fixed formula which is not good for a dogs system.


Here, I fixed it for you:

...they are not familiar (*have not been PAID by the company on it*) therefore it must be a non fixed formula which is not good for a dogs system.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Aireal said:


> ok so I will agree with you on the dental as I have not seen the teeth (some DO need a dental that young but normally you see it most with greyhounds and poodles) at that age for the most part getting a good dry kibble and regular bones to chew can help clean the teeth naturally. My suggestion (again without seeing the teeth) would be to wait 6 months and within that time if they dogs mouth did not vastly improve then consider the dental.
> 
> as far as prescribing the food most don't like it with the new fad food that are coming about all natural and what have you, but science diet is the original veterinary diet that is a fixed formula (meaning every bag is the same) you must understand most vets are not properly trained on alot of the newer diets so all they see when they here you feed TOTW or what have you is that they are not familiar (have not been trained by the company on it) therefore it must be a non fixed formula which is not good for a dogs system. They have been fighting kibbles and bits and ol roy so long at this point it truly is there food otherwise they think your feeding crap. Maybe this is change in the future maybe not but I for one have benefited for these "veterinary" diets and have seen many others do so as well. (FYI I am not getting into a nutrition argument as they made me mad enough to cut someone lol)
> 
> however with the borditella it has been proven to reduce the average 12 weeks recovery to 6 weeks so weather you choose to believe it or not that has been proven and to be opposed to that well then fine that just leaves you with that much longer to deal with a snotty coughing dog obviously as you being the owner that is completely your choose.


The dog's teeth are not atrocious per se, they are a bit yellow but I did not notice any build up in the front. They could have a slight build up behind but I agree on waiting a few months. I think she should be given some time rest without surgeries, procedures, shots medicines. Once she is 100% and knows what to call her home and pack then I would look into it. That dog shelter dog has been through a lot and what she needs now is a lot of love and for her surgery to heal. I will look into that bordetalla information that you are providing me, I know that Bernie caught it in puppy school even though he had the shot a month before or so but I am not sure if the vet told me to wait until he was healed to give it to him. IF you have any medical sources I can read I will gladly apreciate it.

I also read the lack of nutrition education that Vets receive in medical school and it is also known that science diet sponsors those programs. I also know that vets get commission for selling that crap. I know in one instance some science diet foods may actually help out I know Lisa stated one of their foods which was completely meat free or something that was supossed to help an overweight dog. When my dog had the stomach bug they wanted me to feed him corn, brewer's rice, soy Science Diet prescription food. I told them no thank you and gave him probiotics with his boiled chicken and rice. I am not a huge fan of all "natural" foods because I am sure they are all not perfect as they seem. In my ideal world I would feed raw and kibble for vitamins but I don;t have the place or a fridge to store raw meat. My chiwawa gets fed raw and kibble and he is doing very good.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> The dog's teeth are not atrocious per se, they are a bit yellow but I did not notice any build up in the front. They could have a slight build up behind but I agree on waiting a few months. I think she should be given some time rest without surgeries, procedures, shots medicines. Once she is 100% and knows what to call her home and pack then I would look into it. That dog shelter dog has been through a lot and what she needs now is a lot of love and for her surgery to heal. I will look into that bordetalla information that you are providing me, I know that Bernie caught it in puppy school even though he had the shot a month before or so but I am not sure if the vet told me to wait until he was healed to give it to him. IF you have any medical sources I can read I will gladly apreciate it.
> 
> I also read the lack of nutrition education that Vets receive in medical school and it is also known that science diet sponsors those programs. I also know that vets get commission for selling that crap. I know in one instance some science diet foods may actually help out I know Lisa stated one of their foods which was completely meat free or something that was supossed to help an overweight dog. When my dog had the stomach bug they wanted me to feed him corn, brewer's rice, soy Science Diet prescription food. I told them no thank you and gave him probiotics with his boiled chicken and rice. I am not a huge fan of all "natural" foods because I am sure they are all not perfect as they seem. In my ideal world I would feed raw and kibble for vitamins but I don;t have the place or a fridge to store raw meat. My chiwawa gets fed raw and kibble and he is doing very good.


ok then it sounds like you are on the right tract, if the teeth are just slightly yellowed but do not seem to have a build up of plaque then my suggestion would be to get your brother to start to start brushing her teeth with a good doggy enzymatic tooth paste, even if he doesn't get a good brushing done if the tooth past gets into the mouth it will start with cleaning the teeth.

I will def look into the borditella research article for you, I may ask the doc when I go in tomorrow see if she has it around.

ya this is why I leave the food thing alone, do the doctors get a percentage of food they carry/indorse of course, you would be stupid to think they didn't. HOWEVER I can tell you no doctor I have been met would carry a food they are uncomfortable with or would not feed there own personal pet which is why some vets do science diet some do eukanuna (such as myself) and other do Purina (the higher quality Purina of course). I personally say if you like a certain food and the dog is doing well on it (not fat skin/coat healthy) then so be it, I love meat but I'm not going to tell a vegetarian he is stupid for not eating a good steak. :roll:


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## Luvum (Nov 11, 2010)

NesOne said:


> And is there a benefit to feeding your dog meds for the rest of her life? I would rather pay for the pill/shot that terminates the pregnancy than paying for the estrogen supplement for the rest of her life.
> 
> I'm skeptical of all the foreign things we human give to our dogs, and then we wonder why or how they developed cancer or diseases/problems.
> 
> Based on your experience, I think validates waiting until they develop the "normal" way before cutting them open.


So you would rather terminate vs prevent? Interesting. Especially considering your preference to keep foreign things out of your dog. You don't consider the pill/shot to be a foreign thing? I thought most vets quit using those methods due to the side affects, but I could be wrong.

I did find it quite disheartening to hear how common spay incontinence is. And while I am pro spay/neuter, I am still unsure of the best age to have those procedures done. There is just so much conflicting information out there. I wonder why that is?


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Aireal said:


> ok then it sounds like you are on the right tract, if the teeth are just slightly yellowed but do not seem to have a build up of plaque then my suggestion would be to get your brother to start to start brushing her teeth with a good doggy enzymatic tooth paste, even if he doesn't get a good brushing done if the tooth past gets into the mouth it will start with cleaning the teeth.
> 
> I will def look into the borditella research article for you, I may ask the doc when I go in tomorrow see if she has it around.
> 
> ya this is why I leave the food thing alone, do the doctors get a percentage of food they carry/indorse of course, you would be stupid to think they didn't. HOWEVER I can tell you no doctor I have been met would carry a food they are uncomfortable with or would not feed there own personal pet which is why some vets do science diet some do eukanuna (such as myself) and other do Purina (the higher quality Purina of course). I personally say if you like a certain food and the dog is doing well on it (not fat skin/coat healthy) then so be it, I love meat but I'm not going to tell a vegetarian he is stupid for not eating a good steak. :roll:


Thanks:roll:


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## NesOne (Feb 7, 2008)

Luvum said:


> So you would rather terminate vs prevent? Interesting. Especially considering your preference to keep foreign things out of your dog. You don't consider the pill/shot to be a foreign thing? I thought most vets quit using those methods due to the side affects, but I could be wrong.
> 
> I did find it quite disheartening to hear how common spay incontinence is. And while I am pro spay/neuter, I am still unsure of the best age to have those procedures done. There is just so much conflicting information out there. I wonder why that is?


No, I prefer to prevent. If I had a female dog she would be kept in a crate during her heats until she was 2 years of age and then get spayed. If she accidentally got pregnant, then I would use the terminate method. I don't like using foreign things "if I don't have to" (rabies is mandatory)

To me, keeping the dog contained is prevention, not getting them spayed/neutered at a young age.


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