# QUESTION ABOUT CKC REGESTURED PITS



## Cyrena16

Hey.. 
so I baught a pitbull.. her dad is ukc ((purple ribbon champion bloodline)) and the mom is reg ckc.
well first off the breeder told me that my puppy would be dual reg purple ribbon... i recveived the papers today and they were ckc... on it it says the dad has a ckc# when i know specifically the dad isnt ckc reg. is it possible for her to be ckc if the sire and dam are noth BOTH ckc reg?! and would it be possible for me to reg my puppy adba????????

Please help.. i feel like i got ripped off.. when she specificly told me that my puppy would be dual reg and apparently she is not.


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## BedlamBully

No.

Neither the ADBA or the UKC recognize the ckc as a reputable registry. Even if Dad -was- UKC registered you would still not be able to. BOTH parents must be ukc or adba registered for the puppies to be registered with them.

Yes a pup can be ckc registered even if both parents are not, gives you an idea of what kind of registry it is. It is possible dad was ckc registered also or your breeder is hanging papers. I'm sorry to say but you did get ripped off.

This is why it is VERY important to find a reputable breeder.

Sorry for your trouble.  If you really want a UKC/ADBA registerd dog I would take that pup back and get your money back, or spay/neuter it and find it a good pet home and find a good breeder for yourself. Here's a good thread from Patch about finding a good breeder.
http://www.gopitbull.com/pitbull-articles/4745-finding-good-breeder-101-a.html

PS- Purple Ribbon is NOT a sign of a champion line.
This is a break down of what Purple Ribbon ACTUALLY means
"
In the early part of the 1930s, U.K.C. registered and trademarked with the United States Department of Commerce the Purple Ribbon Pedigree. This pedigree is only offered by the United Kennel Club, Inc., and is the mark of the United Kennel Club purebred dog. The Purple Ribbon designation is awarded to eligible dogs at birth by the United Kennel Club and is signified in all U.K.C. records by the letters 'PR' appearing before the dog's name.

Purple Ribbon-bred dogs have six generations of known ancestors and all 14 ancestors within the last three generations must be registered with U.K.C. (indicated by all 14 ancestors having registration numbers). The absence of a U.K.C. registration number shows that there are some single-registered dogs in the pedigree and no 'PR' pedigree will be issued.

Breeders who wish to produce Purple Ribbon-bred puppies must either: breed Purple Ribbon-registered males to Purple Ribbon-registered females, thereby assuring that the offspring will carry this prestigious designation; or carefully research the pedigrees of potential sires and dams that are not Purple Ribbon bred. If an unregistered ancestor is in the third generation of a sire or dam's pedigree, it is possible for that sire or dam to produce a first generation Purple Ribbon-bred litter. If one or more single-registered dogs appear in the first or second generation of the sire or dam's pedigree, the offspring will not be Purple Ribbon bred.

The registration certificates and pedigrees of Purple Ribbon-bred dogs bear the official 'PR'. The ancestors of Purple Ribbon-bred dogs can be traced for six generations and possibly more-perhaps to the foundation stock of the breed."
(compliments of Marty)

So there could be zero champions in the line as long as there are 7 generations of registered dogs behind the puppy it will get a Purple Ribbon stamp. Thats it.


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## Cyrena16

well i was told by adba i can reg any dog ckc just as long as i have 3 generations back papers and then it would be possible.. soo i guess ill just breed her with this adba purple ribbon pit that was my old pitbulls father.. and then at least her litter will be dual regestered..


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## BedlamBully

ADBA -DOES NOT- issue purple ribbon, that is strictly a UKC trademark.
Did you actually speak to the adba?
http://www.adbadogs.com

And why are you already thinking about breeding this dog? Any reason OTHER than money and color? Has she ben health checked? Passed and been given a grade for PennHip and OFA?

I have said it before and I will again. REPUTABLE breeders will have a clear defined purpose to their breedings OTHER than color and money.

Here's a little more reading for you
http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/2931-breeders-code-ethics.html
http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-...s-you-need-know-before-breeding-your-dog.html


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## Cyrena16

well yes i have spoken to them directly the dog i am going to breed with is both ukc/adba dual regesterd.. and um i am a vet tech.. the dog has been checked out and the dog is fine.. the reason we are breeding her is because our former pitbull (which is my picture on here) passed away. I want another puppy from the father of her litter.


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## BedlamBully

No offense but being a vet tech doesn't mean the dog has had all the health checks done.
Also not a good reason to breed in my mind, but ultimately its your dog, you are going to do what you want.

We are just here to help educate people, sometimes they listen...sometimes not.


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## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se

ok... im sorry to burst your bubble. but since ur dog is not ukc/adba registered even if u breed it with a dog that is, the litter will not be ukc/adba... in order for this to happen both the dam and sire need to be registered with the organizations... why do u want to breed? just so u can have a puppy from that litter. what about the other 6,7,8,9 puppies?? have u ever bred a dog before... im sure u know this, but pitbull and pit type dogs are over populated so why add to this problem that is already out there?


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## Cyrena16

I talked to the people at adba and they told me that this could happen andcan happen.. the litter of puppys will be ukc/adba reg bc you can reg through adba when u have 3 generations back through ckc... therefor then once there adba i can reg them ukc.. I have already talked to ukc and adba over the phone


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## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se

it wont happen... someone on here registered their cat as a pitbull and ckc registered it... ckc is not a legit registry. 

so why do u want to become a back yard breeder?

edit: what are your dogs blood lines? have u ever bred before? can u afford puppies? what are you going to do if you mama dog becomes DA and tries to kill or rejects her litter? what if there are complications during delivery?


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## BedlamBully

Musta got in on a lazy night. I've called about four hundred times over the past three days, always get a busy signal or the Automated service. Lemme know your trick.


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## BedlamBully

My friends son is CKC registered. Hehe...I wonder how he would do a show.


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## MADBood

CKC seems to be making alot of money off of these fools. Looks like with all thier funding...they could at least hold a fun show....


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## smith family kennels

CKC is a bad registery and you did get ripped off watch who you buy your dogs from. A good breeder would have shown you both the mom and dads papers and whould have told you that the ckc is a joke. A good breeder would have already registed the pups and already had their papers when you went to get the pup. A good breeder whould have made you sign a contract on the dog and would have asked you 100 questions. Please do not add to the problem do not breed ckc registered dogs because you have no idea where they came from and wether or not they are full blooded the only way you can be sure of that is if you have a pediagree that goes back many many generations.


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## MADBood

I mean seriously. Why do so many people insist on breeding these dogs? If it's a pit...it must be breed worthy or "I want another one just like this one". Is there any doubts why we are fighting for dear life to save this breed?


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## jkoo1982

I copy and pasted this off the ADBA website.

To Register A New dog with the ADBA requires a Single Registration Application.
(Important Things to Remember When Single Registering Your Dog with the ADBA) 

We must have no less than THREE complete generations back on the dog that you are registering. We also need to know the complete registered names of all the dogs in the pedigree. This means the breeder's name and the dog's name (example: Smith's "Tonka").

If the dogs in your pedigree are not found in the existing ADBA files we will ask for pedigree verification. This means that you will need to submit a copy of the organization papers (U.K.C., A.K.C.,etc) where the pedigree information was taken from. If are not able to locate this information then we wouldn't be able to register this dog with the ADBA.)

If the sire or the dam of the dog being registered is registered with the ADBA you will need the owners' of those dogs to sign your single registration application. This signature is needed for verification that the breeding between those two dogs did take place


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## jkoo1982

Do BOTH parents have to be adba registered in order to register a puppy? I ask because the dam to my pup is duel reg ukc/adba and the sire is only ukc registered. I've sent off the ukc paperwork for the breeder to transfer ownership. Is my pup eligible to be adba registered? From what I'm seeing it doesn't explicitly state that BOTH parents need to be adba registered, so I'm hoping you guys might know?


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## MADBood

If the dog doesn't have legit paperwork....why even bother? Even with an awesome pedigree you aren't guaranteed sound puppies. I could care less what the papers say anyway...the papers are only good as the dog. Just what we need more BYBs....great!!! I wouldn't encourage this person to get "real papers" just so they can breed for that one puppy that they want but that's just me.


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## bahamutt99

Whenever a dog has only CKC papers, its puppies will not be able to be legitimately registered, no matter what it is bred to. That, to my mind, means the dog is not breeding quality and should not be bred.


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## BedlamBully

Well I don't know who you talked to at the ABDA but here is the response I got.

"Hello Christy,

Yes, there are certain registries that we can NOT accept. I would ask the
person that you are purchasing the dog from to single register the dog with
ADBA for just $30, before you will purchase the dog.

The main registries that we can accept are the UKC (United Kennel Club) and
the AKC (American Kennel Club) they have been around as long as we have
(since about 1909) and their pedigree information can be connected back into
dogs that we are familiar with. *The main registry that we do NOT accept is
the CKC (Continental Kennel Club).* All other registries are done on a dog by
dog basis. You will take photocopies of the dogs certificate and pedigree
and send it to us, and we will research the pedigree to see if we can find
dogs that we are familiar with in the pedigree. We must find dogs that we
are familiar with in order to accept the dog. So if its just a made up
pedigree of a bunch of dogs that we have never heard of, then we can not
accept that dog.

Thank you,
Adam Bullock
[email protected]
ADBA"

So whoever you talked to, lied to you.


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## LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se

rep points going your ways Bedlam and Baha!


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## GnarlyBlue

LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se said:


> what about the other 6,7,8,9 puppies?? have u ever bred a dog before... im sure u know this, but pitbull and pit type dogs are over populated so why add to this problem that is already out there?


Douche bag in my neighborhood had 18!!! pit mutts, cant weight to hear of all the bad press from this guys "contribution" to the breed


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## Khymera-B

U got gipped. Good luck w/ all that.


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## college_dude

too late, chalk up one more mark on the board for the number of BYB's in this country. And p.s. i love the idea that you want ONE pup from the dog you used to have, so you will breed them and get like 11. what happens with the other 10? shelter or 100 bucks with no papers, thats what happens.

edit: the title of the thread says it all: "QUESTION ABOUT CKC _*REGESTURED*_ PITS" doh!:hammer::hammer::hammer:


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## Sampsons Dad

CKC is for people that made up a pedigree and wants to give suckers something when they buy the scatterbred pup.


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## sw_df27

:goodpost: everyone!!!!!!!!!!! and yes you got ripped and your dog doesn't need to be breed so you can have ONE pup from the sire of your dead dog that's just stupid byb stuff.....................:hammer:


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## Sadie

jkoo1982 said:


> Do BOTH parents have to be adba registered in order to register a puppy? I ask because the dam to my pup is duel reg ukc/adba and the sire is only ukc registered. I've sent off the ukc paperwork for the breeder to transfer ownership. Is my pup eligible to be adba registered? From what I'm seeing it doesn't explicitly state that BOTH parents need to be adba registered, so I'm hoping you guys might know?


Yes as long as your pups parents are registered with either the adba, ukc, or both you can also dual register your pup with the adba. Both parents do not have to be dual registered to register your pup. The adba does recognize the ukc and vice versa.


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## nate

sadie i am not tring to be an ass but the uck will not registered adba till there one year old and then onley after an inspetor gives the yes 
but they can get the dog that isnt uck registered can be at the same as the pups


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## Nizmo

LiiL_L0cz_Red_N0se said:


> it wont happen... someone on here registered their cat as a pitbull and ckc registered it... ckc is not a legit registry.
> 
> so why do u want to become a back yard breeder?
> 
> edit: what are your dogs blood lines? have u ever bred before? can u afford puppies? what are you going to do if you mama dog becomes DA and tries to kill or rejects her litter? what if there are complications during delivery?


easy, call nanny 9l1. She's pretty much pro in london. or wherever...


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## BedlamBully

nate said:


> sadie i am not tring to be an ass but the uck will not registered adba till there one year old and then onley after an inspetor gives the yes
> but they can get the dog that isnt uck registered can be at the same as the pups


Actually you can use a Video if an inspector isn't available but yes, the dog must be a year old first for single dog registration with UKC (not uck hehe  ) but it CAN be done with ADBA paperwork.


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## Sadie

nate said:


> sadie i am not tring to be an ass but the uck will not registered adba till there one year old and then onley after an inspetor gives the yes
> but they can get the dog that isnt uck registered can be at the same as the pups


Your not being an ass but it is the UKC which stands for United Kennel Club not uck ... And as far as technical aspects go with when a pup can be dual registered with the UKC I wouldn't know because I don't deal with the UKC all of my dogs are ADBA except for Ember who was already dual registered when I got her and I have no desire to register the other 2 with the UKC. I do know however it can be done and it's not that difficult as long as your dog is already registered with the adba or ukc it's not hard to dual register your dog and it most certainly can be done. To the original person asking about how to dual register your dog as a single register with the UKC here is the link

United Kennel Club: Single Registration


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## American_Pit13

If your dog is ADBA you send a copy of those papers and your money to the UKC and you get UKC papers. If your dog is UKC you send a copy of those papers to the ADBA and get ADBA papers. If your dog is CKC you have gone thru a bunk registry and can't produce or register your dog with the ADBA or UKC..


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## redog

Is ckc good for anything?


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## smith family kennels

lmao yeah redog its good for back yard breeders. They love the hell out of the ckc. Thats how they make their money.


and sadie , nate knows its the ukc. his non typing *ss cant spell or type. Thats why I do the typing he pecks at the key board like a chicken and sometimes I think he is dislexic


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## ilovemypitbulls1989

If your dog is ckc DO NOT BREED IT! Its just as good as having a shelter pit....adba ukc abkc akc are good registries and legit....ckc and apbr are crap and NOT legit. If ur going to breed a ckc dog ur just as good as the person who sold the dog to u. Sorry but DON'T breed that dog


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## ilovemypitbulls1989

*CKC and APBR*

If u have CKC or APBR pits DON'T BREED THEM! Those are not legit registries! I could register my shelter pit with them.....so what's that telling you....get them spayed/neutered....ADBA UKC ABKC is the way to go. It doesn't matter if 1 parent was adba ukc or abkc and just 1 parent was ckc or apbr....get them fixed please. Both parents must be adba or ukc or abkc to be legit! No questions asked.......


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## meno222

dont forget aadr is a good registry too.


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## OldFortKennels

Im not to keen on ABKC either. AADR yess.


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## FloorCandy

You have to watch out bashing CKC, there are 2 CKCs the Continental Kennel Club is not reputable, but the Canadian Kennel Club is. If a Canadian forum member reads this and is looking for a staffy, they might get confused. I only say this because I know there is a member from Canada who was recently asking about registries, and if they want a staffy, they may be confused about where to get one if their leading registry is perceived as bad.


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## Bully_love

Hang on i posted my dog ped. a couple of weeks ago and i have adba and i was told those are crap!!!!!
Now im getting confused ckc ok i understand but why did i got told i could care less ab out adba papers?
And papers these days dont really matter anymore iv heard!!!!!
Just dont breed any of the cause there are enough in shelter who need to find a good home!


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## stumpy23

isn't abkc the bully registry? what registry would you recommend for bullies?


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## American_Pit13

The AADR will register dogs with just a picture and let people start a pedigree for their unregistered dog. They do have legit registered dogs too but depending on what you are getting with AADR papers you may end up with a "papered" dog with unknown linage.


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## pitbullfanatic

ilovemypitbulls1989 said:


> If u have CKC or APBR pits DON'T BREED THEM! Those are not legit registries! I could register my shelter pit with them.....so what's that telling you....get them spayed/neutered....ADBA UKC ABKC is the way to go. It doesn't matter if 1 parent was adba ukc or abkc and just 1 parent was ckc or apbr....get them fixed please. Both parents must be adba or ukc or abkc to be legit! No questions asked.......


This is a mis-perception based on either lack of knowledge, disagreement with policies and brand devotion. The AKC will say the ADBA is not valid. The ADBA will say the ABKC is not valid. The term illegitimate purports to mean that they do not provide a true service to their members. I doubt any registry would remain in business if it did not provide services to its members. Whether you agree or not with a lesser known registry does not make them illegitimate. Just because you do not like vanilla ice cream does not mean it is not ice cream.


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## pitbullfanatic

ilovemypitbulls1989 said:


> If your dog is ckc DO NOT BREED IT! Its just as good as having a shelter pit....adba ukc abkc akc are good registries and legit....ckc and apbr are crap and NOT legit.


This is a mis-perception based on either lack of knowledge, disagreement with policies and brand devotion. The AKC will say the ADBA is not valid. The ADBA will say the ABKC is not valid. The term illegitimate purports to mean that they do not provide a true service to their members. I doubt any registry would remain in business if it did not provide services to its members. Whether you agree or not with a lesser known registry does not make them illegitimate. Just because you do not like vanilla ice cream does not mean it is not ice cream.


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## cass0407

pitbullfanatic said:


> This is a mis-perception based on either lack of knowledge, disagreement with policies and brand devotion. The AKC will say the ADBA is not valid. The ADBA will say the ABKC is not valid. The term illegitimate purports to mean that they do not provide a true service to their members. I doubt any registry would remain in business if it did not provide services to its members. Whether you agree or not with a lesser known registry does not make them illegitimate. Just because you do not like vanilla ice cream does not mean it is not ice cream.


For one of course AKC will say ADBA is not valid because for AKC doesn't recognize the APBT as a breed and the ADBA does not register the bully breeds like the ABKC does. The service that APBR provides is a way to register your otherwise unregisterable "APBT" with unknown background with full privlidges such as breeding. Now come one you have to admit that when you don't need any other proof than pics to register you dog something shady is going on.


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## kstr0h

pitbullfanatic said:


> This is a mis-perception based on either lack of knowledge, disagreement with policies and brand devotion. The AKC will say the ADBA is not valid. The ADBA will say the ABKC is not valid. The term illegitimate purports to mean that they do not provide a true service to their members. I doubt any registry would remain in business if it did not provide services to its members. Whether you agree or not with a lesser known registry does not make them illegitimate. Just because you do not like vanilla ice cream does not mean it is not ice cream.


your annoying


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## Nizmo

cass0407 said:


> For one of course AKC will say ADBA is not valid because for AKC doesn't recognize the APBT as a breed and the ADBA does not register the bully breeds like the ABKC does. The service that APBR provides is a way to register your otherwise unregisterable "APBT" with unknown background with full privlidges such as breeding. Now come one you have to admit that when you don't need any other proof than pics to register you dog something shady is going on.


i agree with that


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## Rock Creek Kennels

pitbullfanatic said:


> This is a mis-perception based on either lack of knowledge, disagreement with policies and brand devotion. The AKC will say the ADBA is not valid. The ADBA will say the ABKC is not valid. The term illegitimate purports to mean that they do not provide a true service to their members. I doubt any registry would remain in business if it did not provide services to its members. Whether you agree or not with a lesser known registry does not make them illegitimate. Just because you do not like vanilla ice cream does not mean it is not ice cream.


Not a mis-perception at all. The CKC is a junk registery used only for "registering" unregisterable dogs. You dont need a pedigree or history of what was actually used to create your dogs. Just the sire & dams names and you have papers.

The ADBA & UKC have been in business for over 100 years. Thats only one reason why they are legit registeries.

Just because you type a dogs name on a piece of paper, does not make you a reputable registery. There's alot more to it than that.


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## American_Pit13

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> Not a mis-perception at all. The CKC is a junk registery used only for "registering" unregisterable dogs. You dont need a pedigree or history of what was actually used to create your dogs. Just the sire & dams names and you have papers.
> 
> The ADBA & UKC have been in business for over 100 years. Thats only one reason why they are legit registeries.
> 
> Just because you type a dogs name on a piece of paper, does not make you a reputable registery. There's alot more to it than that.


Don't waste your time RCK. This person seems to think that purebred dog overpopulation is a myth and that more dogs need to start histories and be bred. He/she is obviously a huge BYBer supporter and feels strongly about the need for more animals to be bred so they can die in shelters. Not how he/she sees it but us who live in reality know.


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## StaffyDaddy

american_pit13 said:


> Don't waste your time RCK. This person seems to think that purebred dog overpopulation is a myth and that more dogs need to start histories and be bred. He/she is obviously a huge BYBer supporter and feels strongly about the need for more animals to be bred so they can die in shelters. Not how he/she sees it but us who live in reality know.


:hammer: oohhhh snap son!

yeah bottom line... ukc akc adba

and the abkc... i mean come on, a bully is a mix. it's not been bred for anywhere near as long as a true apbt had to be bred for...


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## pitbullfanatic

american_pit13 said:


> Don't waste your time RCK. This person seems to think that purebred dog overpopulation is a myth and that more dogs need to start histories and be bred. He/she is obviously a huge BYBer supporter and feels strongly about the need for more animals to be bred so they can die in shelters. Not how he/she sees it but us who live in reality know.


I see, you know nothing about me but you slander. You do not read my posts and you slander. You read my posts and take them out of context and you slander. If this board was dedicated to just UKC and ADBA then why are others even allowed to participate. Redog has the right to ask me to leave.

You act as if people are not going to breed just because they do not have their dog registered. Are you aware that 1/2 of Pit Bulls go unregistered? I actually do not feel strongly that animals should be bred. I am a realist however and recognize they will. For every unregistered dog that breeds the value is then diminshed for the whole breed, which then perpetuates the throw away mentality that leads to many shelter turnins. Also if you read my other posts you will see that not only do I support rescue but so does the APBR. How many of those shelter dogs has the ADBA placed?

Here is a nice little quote from Richard Stratton p. 135-136.

"The United Kennel Club was founded in 1898 by Chauncey Z. Bennett, and the first breed to be recognized was the American Pit Bull Terrier. Now Mr. Bennett was not a pit dog man in the sense that he ever matched dogs, but he was an enthusiastic promoter of the breed. *He was not fool enough to fall for the absurd idea sometimes promulgated by kennel clubs that a breed is not pure bred unless it is registered.*"

This also explains why he registered Bennett's Buck according to all the records I have been able to find without any parentage information. Some want to act like this is not true, but have failed to provide proof otherwise, yet I cite my sources.


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## StaffyDaddy

pitbullfanatic said:


> I see, you know nothing about me but you slander. You do not read my posts and you slander. You read my posts and take them out of context and you slander. If this board was dedicated to just UKC and ADBA then why are others even allowed to participate. Redog has the right to ask me to leave.
> 
> You act as if people are not going to breed just because they do not have their dog registered. Are you aware that 1/2 of Pit Bulls go unregistered? I actually do not feel strongly that animals should be bred.


Dude everyone has read your posts. And quite frankly, it's a little irritating to see almost the same argument in each one. If you don't like people giving you feedback, wether it's negative or positive, then don't post. Simple as that.

People ARE going to breed, and those who choose to are not doing it to better the breed. You might cite sources trying to come off like you know more about something than someone else, when all it boils down to.. unpapered.. no way to tell if it's a mutt or not. No guarantee of a clean bill of health.

GET OVER YOURSELF BRO


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## American_Pit13

pitbullfanatic said:


> I see, you know nothing about me but you slander. You do not read my posts and you slander. You read my posts and take them out of context and you slander. If this board was dedicated to just UKC and ADBA then why are others even allowed to participate. Redog has the right to ask me to leave.
> 
> You act as if people are not going to breed just because they do not have their dog registered. Are you aware that 1/2 of Pit Bulls go unregistered? I actually do not feel strongly that animals should be bred. I am a realist however and recognize they will. For every unregistered dog that breeds the value is then diminshed for the whole breed


Everyone can read your posts and see there is nothing about slander here. You have been very clear that you support byb which is the breeding of dog with NO linage. You seem to think that if someone sends them papers that then it is ok. And you encourage it.



pitbullfanatic said:


> Overpopulation is a myth when it comes to pure breeds in my opinion. If overpopulation was an issue I think I would have much greater problem placing one's in need.


This statement makes it very clear that you do not see the current pitbull overpopulation issue.


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## pitbullfanatic

StaffyDaddy said:


> Dude everyone has read your posts. And quite frankly, it's a little irritating to see almost the same argument in each one. If you don't like people giving you feedback, wether it's negative or positive, then don't post. Simple as that.
> 
> People ARE going to breed, and those who choose to are not doing it to better the breed. You might cite sources trying to come off like you know more about something than someone else, when all it boils down to.. unpapered.. no way to tell if it's a mutt or not. No guarantee of a clean bill of health.
> 
> GET OVER YOURSELF BRO


Sorry, you do not like what I say and cite. Have you read the sources I provide? These are the same sources in many cases that you hold dear such as the ADBA and UKC. I am not trying to act like I am the most educated. All here have varying levels of education on the breed and elsewhere. All here I suppose came in part to learn more. I read all sources when someone provides them to me as I am interested in a constant learning process. I think as Pit Bull lovers and evolving humans we all should be.

I am simply trying to defend a position I believe in and have sources to back such conclusions up. I provide sources to show a relationship to my reasoning. I also ask that others provide sources to back up theirs so everyone can see how they arrived at their conclusion. Why are people afraid of such sources of information? Why will they provide none?

Also it is pretty much is the same debate across many threads. If you will notice all threads have the same common elements. I do not off post. Also the predominance of the threads were brought to my attention, I did go seeking them out.

Also I do not mind feedback and in fact welcome it. But simply saying stuff that is not true and making outright false allegations towards me is not feedback it is slander. You have not done this that I am aware of but read other posts I am involved in and it is quite obvious.

Would you settle for someone asking you to walk away from your convictions? If not please do not ask me to do the same.


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## los44

just cause a dog isnt papered doesnt mean it isnt worth breeding! id take a well bred unregistered dog over a a poorly bred registered dog any day of the week.

i know a family upstate with gorgeous healthy dogs that they never papered them simply because the breeder is one of those rebel types im talking over 30 years breeding the breed ive been blessed to have one of their dogs when i was younger, he doesnt breed often but ive already let him know that i want something off his next breeding.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

los44 said:


> just cause a dog isnt papered doesnt mean it isnt worth breeding! id take a well bred unregistered dog over a a poorly bred registered dog any day of the week.
> 
> i know a family upstate with gorgeous healthy dogs that they never papered them simply because the breeder is one of those rebel types im talking over 30 years breeding the breed ive been blessed to have one of their dogs when i was younger, he doesnt breed often but ive already let him know that i want something off his next breeding.


:goodpost:

Well said. In fact many people have been anti-registry since the beginning of their advent. Mr. Bennett in fact was quite despised yet everyone now throws praise his way (that is well deserved).


----------



## mygirlmaile

I think if we just register our merle pitties with the CKC AND the APBR pitbullfanatic will zip it. 


(I am, by all means, kidding, but I'm annoyed.)


----------



## pitbullfanatic

mygirlmaile said:


> I think if we just register our merle pitties with the CKC AND the APBR pitbullfanatic will zip it.
> 
> (I am, by all means, kidding, but I'm annoyed.)


The discussion is not that simple. The discussion is about falsely accusing others without experience as well. I will ZIP it when I no longer see slanderous material lobbed by people with no experience. As I have said repeatedly to everyone wishing to participate bring your evidence so all can make a fair assessment.

By the way why is it that you keep coming to posts about the same thing but then complain when much of the same material is presented. The are 147,445 + posts. Plenty of other options.

If you are here however to add to the discussion then by all means please do.


----------



## mygirlmaile

I do GP on my phone. All I can look at are the threads that are the latest...which are always the ones you seem to be posting on. *lucky me*

I'm no longer going to do this. Have fun citing sources.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

kstr0h said:


> your annoying


So is the truth when it is inconvenient. When I pull a bad steak out of the fridge I am annoyed by that, however I know it is bad and thus do not eat it. Plenty of other posts elsewhere.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

mygirlmaile said:


> I do GP on my phone. All I can look at are the threads that are the latest...which are always the ones you seem to be posting on. *lucky me*
> 
> I'm no longer going to do this. Have fun citing sources.


Try scrolling on your phone to the top tool bar. There you can search threads and see new posts. Sorry if this had been bothersome to you.


----------



## cass0407

pitbullfanatic said:


> Sorry, you do not like what I say and cite. Have you read the sources I provide? These are the same sources in many cases that you hold dear such as the ADBA and UKC. I am not trying to act like I am the most educated. All here have varying levels of education on the breed and elsewhere. All here I suppose came in part to learn more. I read all sources when someone provides them to me as I am interested in a constant learning process. I think as Pit Bull lovers and evolving humans we all should be.
> 
> I am simply trying to defend a position I believe in and have sources to back such conclusions up. I provide sources to show a relationship to my reasoning. I also ask that others provide sources to back up theirs so everyone can see how they arrived at their conclusion. Why are people afraid of such sources of information? Why will they provide none?
> 
> Also it is pretty much is the same debate across many threads. If you will notice all threads have the same common elements. I do not off post. Also the predominance of the threads were brought to my attention, I did go seeking them out.
> 
> Also I do not mind feedback and in fact welcome it. But simply saying stuff that is not true and making outright false allegations towards me is not feedback it is slander. You have not done this that I am aware of but read other posts I am involved in and it is quite obvious.
> 
> Would you settle for someone asking you to walk away from your convictions? If not please do not ask me to do the same.


If it is cited you want here ya go....Straight from the apbr website...

In order to take advantage of the FAST TRACK Pit Bull Registration process you will need the following items before you get started:

1. A minimum of one front and one side picture of your Pit Bull in digital format uploaded from your computer.

2. A method of making online payment: Debit Card, Credit Card, Checking Account (online check processing), or PayPal account.

If you meet the two conditions above you are ready to move forward in your Pit Bull Registration process.

Additional material that will help enhance your material, but is not required:

•Genealogical heritage information
•Pedigrees from other registries
•Pictures of any relatives
•Copies of any designations or awards received (Service Companion, Good Citizen Awards, Therapy Dog, etc.) 
•Short movies (in digital format) 
•Other material you may feel is beneficial for our records

Now notice that is says additional material that will help enhance your material, BUT IS NOT REQUIRED!

Now my question to you is why do you think that this is a reputable registry when all you need to get papers on your dog is a front and side pic of your "pit bull'". What they are basically saying is if the person that recieves your application for paperwork thinks that your dog looks like a APBT that you will recieve papers on that dog. Now we all know that there are many other breeds of dog that are commonly mistaken for the APBT. I just don't understand how you can defend such people. It is great that they help shelter dogs and all, but that doesn't by any means make them a reputable registry for the APBT.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

By reputable please define. Also read my other posts and you will see that the founder of the UKC did pretty much the same. This is also backed up by Richard Stratton. Is the UKC not reputable. Just because someone does not like it does not invalidate or make illegitimate.

ALL registries depend on the ethics of their members. No registry can control those will will be dishonest.


----------



## los44

pitbullfanatic said:


> ALL registries depend on the ethics of their members. No registry can control those will will be dishonest.


dont know of the drama going on in this thread or with any individuals involved nor do i wish to know, lol but i really love this quote. i believe it to be true to an extent. my problem with it is that the registries have to account for their errors as well, they can/should police their own yard if ya know what i mean but like in anything corruption prevails.


----------



## kstr0h

pitbullfanatic said:


> So is the truth when it is inconvenient. When I pull a bad steak out of the fridge I am annoyed by that, however I know it is bad and thus do not eat it. Plenty of other posts elsewhere.


enough with your "SPEAKING THE TRUTH". you repeat the same thing in every thread. just stfu. enough of your GARBAGE.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

los44 said:


> dont know of the drama going on in this thread or with any individuals involved nor do i wish to know, lol but i really love this quote. i believe it to be true to an extent. my problem with it is that the registries have to account for their errors as well, they can/should police their own yard if ya know what i mean but like in anything corruption prevails.


Agreed. When a person registers a dog fraudulently there are legal means by which to resolve such. All registries have had to deal with this and many have decided to sweep such occurrences under the rug and accept and move forward. One example is 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotty - ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [68594] :: NOTORIOUS JUAN GOTTY. I know people love when I cite data so if any wish I will be happy to point more out in both the UKC and ADBA.

There are also standards within all registries to deal with lack of ethics. Registries regardless of who they are are also the victim. Blaming a registry for fraud is like blaming a victim for being raped.

The APBR not only polices its own but also works with its members to bring these situations to quick resolve so situations like the accusations made on Juan Gotty are resolved as quickly as possible.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

kstr0h said:


> enough with your "SPEAKING THE TRUTH". you repeat the same thing in every thread. just stfu. enough of your GARBAGE.


So the truth is garbage. You obviously have not taken the time to read the evidence I have cited as you will see much comes directly from the UKC and ADBA themselves. Are you calling them garbage?


----------



## los44

pitbullfanatic said:


> Agreed. When a person registers a dog fraudulently there are legal means by which to resolve such. All registries have had to deal with this and many have decided to sweep such occurrences under the rug and accept and move forward. One example is 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotty - ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [68594] :: NOTORIOUS JUAN GOTTY. I know people love when I cite data so if any wish I will be happy to point more out in both the UKC and ADBA.
> 
> There are also standards within all registries to deal with lack of ethics. Registries regardless of who they are are also the victim. Blaming a registry for fraud is like blaming a victim for being raped.
> 
> The APBR not only polices its own but also works with its members to bring these situations to quick resolve so situations like the accusations made on Juan Gotty are resolved as quickly as possible.


i dont mind gotti being registered ukc, at that point he wasnt that distant from the apbt/ast and yes i know of the paper hanging but at least he looked somewhat the part. some of these EB looking bullys get registered as apbts and that is flat out bs if you cant tell the difference between the 2 then you should not be allowed to run a registry. and not for nothing it goes way past gotti, go to 90 percent of the bully cites and you will get a ukc registered apbt well on paper atleast and that fraud and that goes back to the registry.

registries dont care about ethics they care about the checks that come in, it is a business and that goes for all registries period. these new registries are just trying to fill the void the ukc leaves and cash in.


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels

pitbullfanatic said:


> I see, you know nothing about me but you slander. You do not read my posts and you slander. You read my posts and take them out of context and you slander. If this board was dedicated to just UKC and ADBA then why are others even allowed to participate. Redog has the right to ask me to leave.
> 
> You act as if people are not going to breed just because they do not have their dog registered. Are you aware that 1/2 of Pit Bulls go unregistered? I actually do not feel strongly that animals should be bred. I am a realist however and recognize they will. For every unregistered dog that breeds the value is then diminshed for the whole breed, which then perpetuates the throw away mentality that leads to many shelter turnins. Also if you read my other posts you will see that not only do I support rescue but so does the APBR. How many of those shelter dogs has the ADBA placed?
> 
> Here is a nice little quote from Richard Stratton p. 135-136.
> 
> "The United Kennel Club was founded in 1898 by Chauncey Z. Bennett, and the first breed to be recognized was the American Pit Bull Terrier. Now Mr. Bennett was not a pit dog man in the sense that he ever matched dogs, but he was an enthusiastic promoter of the breed. *He was not fool enough to fall for the absurd idea sometimes promulgated by kennel clubs that a breed is not pure bred unless it is registered.*"
> 
> This also explains why he registered Bennett's Buck according to all the records I have been able to find without any parentage information. Some want to act like this is not true, but have failed to provide proof otherwise, yet I cite my sources.


I have shown under and met Richard Stratton countless times throughout the years. Guess where at?

ADBA shows.

Never at UKC, CKC, APA, APBA, BBC, AKC, NKC, or any of the other shows we frequent.

Another question for ya. Guess where Mr. Stratton registers his dogs?

The ADBA.

Last question. Guess which registery Mr. Stratton advertises with and writes articles for?

Thats right! The ADBA.

So obviously he holds some importance to a registery.


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels

pitbullfanatic said:


> So the truth is garbage. You obviously have not taken the time to read the evidence I have cited as you will see much comes directly from the UKC and ADBA themselves. Are you calling them garbage?


ADBA & UKC *ARE* the better registeries. Thats common sense for any one with experience with these dogs. I can tell you have read alot and have done alot of internet research.

Merle is not an acceptable coat color in APBTs. You can try to prove it is all you want, but never will. Just like people with american bullys cant prove that they are purebred.

The real question is...Have you ever owned and worked an APBT in your lifetime? What is your real experience with this breed?


----------



## Hirihat

pitbullfanatic said:


> So the truth is garbage. You obviously have not taken the time to read the evidence I have cited as you will see much comes directly from the UKC and ADBA themselves. Are you calling them garbage?


So, I just randomly picked a quote of yours.....
Pitbullfanatic, I just have to know if you get a kick-back from APBR & CKC? 
My other questions...
1. You keep raising the rescue/re-homing issue. Do you rescue? If so, how can you not have noticed all of the pure-bred dogs surrendered? How can you not notice all the poorly bred pure-breds? How can you not see how many animals in general are abandoned? When you see all of that, how can you support a registry/ies that will register a dog based solely on a picture or two? Do you not recognize and acknowledge that more breeding, specifically breeding of animals who cannot be involved in other breeding programs or events results in more overpopulation AND owners who are dissatisfied/angry because they didn't know enough before they bought the animal to know they would be excluded???
2. In your posts that I have read in several threads, you seem to be more interested in trying to use semantics to start arguements than actually discussing an issue? Do you just want to argue? I can recommed a few forums that pretty much only argue.
3. If you have a great deal of experience with the registry/ies, why are you not sharing your personal experiences? Is your dog/s registered? If so, where? Do you breed? Do you show? Do you do weight pull or SCH or anything like that? 
4. You speak of your convictions and of standing up for them. Can you please expound upon that? What are your convictions in this matter? Do you really feel that when it comes to dog breeds, "if it looks like an APBT, and acts like an APBT, it MUST be an APBT"?? or any other breed for that matter?


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels

Hirihat said:


> 3. If you have a great deal of experience with the registry/ies, why are you not sharing your personal experiences? Is your dog/s registered? If so, where? Do you breed? Do you show? Do you do weight pull or SCH or anything like that?


I cant find it now, but I basically asked him the same question. Said he doesnt have any dogs right now, but is planning on getting some when he moves to Australia. Said he will probably have to inbreed them since there arent many breeders down under. Even though he says that inbreeding (even when properly done) causes alot of genetic problems and does nothing to help the breed, only hurt it.


----------



## Hirihat

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> I cant find it now, but I basically asked him the same question. Said he doesnt have any dogs right now, but is planning on getting some when he moves to Australia. Said he will probably have to inbreed them since there arent many breeders down under. Even though he says that inbreeding (even when properly done) causes alot of genetic problems and does nothing to help the breed, only hurt it.


That's awesome!!! You know, I am the very first to admit that I don't know much about bloodlines and registries. I don't breed and I am a sucker for the poor babies thrown away by stupid folk, so I can't even always be sure of their exact breed! I do know most of the dogs I see in rescue are "papered", breeder surrenders (back-yard breeders) or owner surrendered to the shelter WITH THEIR CKC PAPERS, because the owner purchased the dog hoping to weight pull or more often, breed and discovered their papers are worthless so they dump the dog. And then there are also the "papered" dogs who are dumped because of the expensive medical problems they are developing/have developed.....but he WANTS to get an inbred dog and support crappy registries that perpetuate the overpopulation and poor health issues.....This makes my day!!! :hammer::rofl::hammer::rofl::hammer::hammer:


----------



## redog

yeah thats exactly what we see. but more ukc dogs. folks around here dont bother much with ckc.


----------



## Hirihat

redog said:


> yeah thats exactly what we see. but more ukc dogs. folks around here dont bother much with ckc.


I wish!!! We get people trying to show you a receipt from getting shots at the vet as a dog's papers!! LMAO!!! At least the CKC paperwork is neater!!! 
:hammer::hammer:


----------



## pitbullfanatic

When I release any details of myself that are twisted to be used against me. When someone is not able to defend their stance on a topic and realizes the evidence is stacked against them they try to impugn my personal life and character. This is why I do not share such. I stay to the topic at hand as best possible.

To straighten out Australia as it has been taken out of context by Rock Creek and bandwagoned by Hirihat you need to understand they do not allow imports of dogs. You also need to know that BSL is pervasive there even more so than here in many cases. So if you want to have part of anything to do with a Pit Bull you are likely going to be dealing with inbreeding at some level. Will I be breeding brother to sister - No. Will I be forced to breed distant cousins (if I choose to breed) - Maybe. 

The Pit Bull is an international breed and not specific to America just because that is part of its name. If you understand about animal conservation you will realize that sometimes inbreeding is necessary to keep what ever you are breeding from going extinct. It is also common practice to work to limit inbred relationships as quickly as possible. Extinction of the Pit Bull in Australia is a real possibility and trust me they will not import them just to save the breed. Panda’s yes, Pit Bulls No. If I were to breed I would probably only do so from a conservation standpoint (as I am an enthusiast) and would then help insure the success of such breeding and future progeny by limiting the closeness of the inbreeding. 

For those who wish to chime in and say that is not inbreeding that is line breeding this is a valid point but you must also understand line breeding is inbreeding separated by more distant relationships. Many use the term line breed to take the focus off of the terminology of inbreeding, which often has a negative connotation. If you have baby's with your cousin however they are inbred. In closed populations inbreeding is a tool in open populations however it is a choice. I am not against all inbreeding/line breeding as it can be a positive tool in some situations. I am against however haphazard inbreeding and inbreeding without a goal other than to produce pups. If you have the moxie to cull a sick pup, you have an end goal in mind you are working toward and you can justify how the end result improves the breed/line then you are making an informed choice.

My experience is over 30 years of owning, training, showing and rescuing. Personally I have chosen to rescue most Pits I have personally cared for. Rescue is not for everyone though looking for a dog and I believe in freedom of choice. Also I believe in being non-judgmental. Something not all hear follow. I attack no one on their opinions, only when I see facts mis-represented. And why Hirihat would you even question me on this posts topic, when you yourself admit to having little knowledge of bloodlines or registries. I lay my evidence out for all to see. I do not ask people to believe me, I ask people to educate themselves and to then make their own personal choices. The topic of this post is about registries. Why would you chime in to tear down something you do not know about? If you know something your input is appreciated if not you should take the time to learn, experience and then judge.

As far as anyone getting a dog just so they can ??????? with, that is not a responsible reason to own one. A dog should be a lifestyle choice and not a choice of convenience or whim. 

As far semantics, maybe a little depending on the definition you use but this is not to start arguments. If I was doing this I would not source, much the same way as my critics.

In regards to Merle I have proven with evidence the Merle has been part of the breed and has even contributed to some of the best know lines. Colby, Loposay, Corvino, and just yesterday as posted with Carver. To see more visit the Merle thread though as that is off topic for here.

In regards to Stratton. Highly respect him and his writings on the breed and know he will go down in the history of the breed as one of its foremost historians. You act as if I have attacked him. I have done nothing but speak positive of him and used some of the same words he put down on paper himself. You know I always quote and even provide the page number the information can be found on. Just because what he says may be inconvenient to you does not give the right to take what I say and twist it Rock Creek. Richard, your great.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

pitbullfanatic said:


> When I release any details of myself that are twisted to be used against me. When someone is not able to defend their stance on a topic and realizes the evidence is stacked against them they try to impugn my personal life and character. This is why I do not share such. I stay to the topic at hand as best possible.
> 
> To straighten out Australia as it has been taken out of context by Rock Creek and bandwagoned by Hirihat you need to understand they do not allow imports of dogs. You also need to know that BSL is pervasive there even more so than here in many cases. So if you want to have part of anything to do with a Pit Bull you are likely going to be dealing with inbreeding at some level. Will I be breeding brother to sister - No. Will I be forced to breed distant cousins (if I choose to breed) - Maybe.
> 
> The Pit Bull is an international breed and not specific to America just because that is part of its name. If you understand about animal conservation you will realize that sometimes inbreeding is necessary to keep what ever you are breeding from going extinct. It is also common practice to work to limit inbred relationships as quickly as possible. Extinction of the Pit Bull in Australia is a real possibility and trust me they will not import them just to save the breed. Panda's yes, Pit Bulls No. If I were to breed I would probably only do so from a conservation standpoint (as I am an enthusiast) and would then help insure the success of such breeding and future progeny by limiting the closeness of the inbreeding.
> 
> For those who wish to chime in and say that is not inbreeding that is line breeding this is a valid point but you must also understand line breeding is inbreeding separated by more distant relationships. Many use the term line breed to take the focus off of the terminology of inbreeding, which often has a negative connotation. If you have baby's with your cousin however they are inbred. In closed populations inbreeding is a tool in open populations however it is a choice. I am not against all inbreeding/line breeding as it can be a positive tool in some situations. I am against however haphazard inbreeding and inbreeding without a goal other than to produce pups. If you have the moxie to cull a sick pup, you have an end goal in mind you are working toward and you can justify how the end result improves the breed/line then you are making an informed choice.
> 
> My experience is over 30 years of owning, training, showing and rescuing. Personally I have chosen to rescue most Pits I have personally cared for. Rescue is not for everyone though looking for a dog and I believe in freedom of choice. Also I believe in being non-judgmental. Something not all hear follow. I attack no one on their opinions, only when I see facts mis-represented. And why Hirihat would you even question me on this posts topic, when you yourself admit to having little knowledge of bloodlines or registries. I lay my evidence out for all to see. I do not ask people to believe me, I ask people to educate themselves and to then make their own personal choices. The topic of this post is about registries. Why would you chime in to tear down something you do not know about? If you know something your input is appreciated if not you should take the time to learn, experience and then judge.
> 
> As far as anyone getting a dog just so they can ??????? with, that is not a responsible reason to own one. A dog should be a lifestyle choice and not a choice of convenience or whim.
> 
> As far semantics, maybe a little depending on the definition you use but this is not to start arguments. If I was doing this I would not source, much the same way as my critics.
> 
> In regards to Merle I have proven with evidence the Merle has been part of the breed and has even contributed to some of the best know lines. Colby, Loposay, Corvino, and just yesterday as posted with Carver. To see more visit the Merle thread though as that is off topic for here.
> 
> In regards to Stratton. Highly respect him and his writings on the breed and know he will go down in the history of the breed as one of its foremost historians. You act as if I have attacked him. I have done nothing but speak positive of him and used some of the same words he put down on paper himself. You know I always quote and even provide the page number the information can be found on. Just because what he says may be inconvenient to you does not give the right to take what I say and twist it Rock Creek. Richard, your great.


What the hell does this exhausting post have to do with the CKC? Keep on topic here bud. You're all over the place on this forum blowing hot air and saying a crap load of nothing... Personally I'm getting alittle tired of it.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

NEELA said:


> What the hell does this exhausting post have to do with the CKC? Keep on topic here bud. You're all over the place on this forum blowing hot air and saying a crap load of nothing... Personally I'm getting alittle tired of it.


If you read the previous posts (no dis-respect) you will see the relationship. I was being attacked and misrepresented. I merely was answering the questions and responding to what was said. If you read most of my posts you will see that I stay on topic. Why though do you feel the need to attack. As a moderator you should moderate and help bring back to topic if there is anything else to be said on it.

If you would like to point out what I am saying as hot air and crap then please create a post on this and we can take that up there. Please do however let me know so as to be fair and allow me to honorably defend myself.

That being said CKC, APBR, etc.? Please post good and bad "experiences".


----------



## los44

pitbullfanatic said:


> When I release any details of myself that are twisted to be used against me. When someone is not able to defend their stance on a topic and realizes the evidence is stacked against them they try to impugn my personal life and character. This is why I do not share such. I stay to the topic at hand as best possible.
> 
> To straighten out Australia as it has been taken out of context by Rock Creek and bandwagoned by Hirihat you need to understand they do not allow imports of dogs. You also need to know that BSL is pervasive there even more so than here in many cases. So if you want to have part of anything to do with a Pit Bull you are likely going to be dealing with inbreeding at some level. Will I be breeding brother to sister - No. Will I be forced to breed distant cousins (if I choose to breed) - Maybe.
> 
> The Pit Bull is an international breed and not specific to America just because that is part of its name. If you understand about animal conservation you will realize that sometimes inbreeding is necessary to keep what ever you are breeding from going extinct. It is also common practice to work to limit inbred relationships as quickly as possible. Extinction of the Pit Bull in Australia is a real possibility and trust me they will not import them just to save the breed. Panda's yes, Pit Bulls No. If I were to breed I would probably only do so from a conservation standpoint (as I am an enthusiast) and would then help insure the success of such breeding and future progeny by limiting the closeness of the inbreeding.
> 
> For those who wish to chime in and say that is not inbreeding that is line breeding this is a valid point but you must also understand line breeding is inbreeding separated by more distant relationships. Many use the term line breed to take the focus off of the terminology of inbreeding, which often has a negative connotation. If you have baby's with your cousin however they are inbred. In closed populations inbreeding is a tool in open populations however it is a choice. I am not against all inbreeding/line breeding as it can be a positive tool in some situations. I am against however haphazard inbreeding and inbreeding without a goal other than to produce pups. If you have the moxie to cull a sick pup, you have an end goal in mind you are working toward and you can justify how the end result improves the breed/line then you are making an informed choice.
> 
> My experience is over 30 years of owning, training, showing and rescuing. Personally I have chosen to rescue most Pits I have personally cared for. Rescue is not for everyone though looking for a dog and I believe in freedom of choice. Also I believe in being non-judgmental. Something not all hear follow. I attack no one on their opinions, only when I see facts mis-represented. And why Hirihat would you even question me on this posts topic, when you yourself admit to having little knowledge of bloodlines or registries. I lay my evidence out for all to see. I do not ask people to believe me, I ask people to educate themselves and to then make their own personal choices. The topic of this post is about registries. Why would you chime in to tear down something you do not know about? If you know something your input is appreciated if not you should take the time to learn, experience and then judge.
> 
> As far as anyone getting a dog just so they can ??????? with, that is not a responsible reason to own one. A dog should be a lifestyle choice and not a choice of convenience or whim.
> 
> As far semantics, maybe a little depending on the definition you use but this is not to start arguments. If I was doing this I would not source, much the same way as my critics.
> 
> In regards to Merle I have proven with evidence the Merle has been part of the breed and has even contributed to some of the best know lines. Colby, Loposay, Corvino, and just yesterday as posted with Carver. To see more visit the Merle thread though as that is off topic for here.
> 
> In regards to Stratton. Highly respect him and his writings on the breed and know he will go down in the history of the breed as one of its foremost historians. You act as if I have attacked him. I have done nothing but speak positive of him and used some of the same words he put down on paper himself. You know I always quote and even provide the page number the information can be found on. Just because what he says may be inconvenient to you does not give the right to take what I say and twist it Rock Creek. Richard, your great.


are you like drunk and i dont mean this in an offensive manner but you are all over the place and thats just in this post


----------



## Hirihat

pitbullfanatic said:


> When I release any details of myself that are twisted to be used against me. When someone is not able to defend their stance on a topic and realizes the evidence is stacked against them they try to impugn my personal life and character. This is why I do not share such. I stay to the topic at hand as best possible.
> 
> To straighten out Australia as it has been taken out of context by Rock Creek and bandwagoned by Hirihat you need to understand they do not allow imports of dogs. You also need to know that BSL is pervasive there even more so than here in many cases. So if you want to have part of anything to do with a Pit Bull you are likely going to be dealing with inbreeding at some level. Will I be breeding brother to sister - No. Will I be forced to breed distant cousins (if I choose to breed) - Maybe.
> 
> The Pit Bull is an international breed and not specific to America just because that is part of its name. If you understand about animal conservation you will realize that sometimes inbreeding is necessary to keep what ever you are breeding from going extinct. It is also common practice to work to limit inbred relationships as quickly as possible. Extinction of the Pit Bull in Australia is a real possibility and trust me they will not import them just to save the breed. Panda's yes, Pit Bulls No. If I were to breed I would probably only do so from a conservation standpoint (as I am an enthusiast) and would then help insure the success of such breeding and future progeny by limiting the closeness of the inbreeding.
> 
> For those who wish to chime in and say that is not inbreeding that is line breeding this is a valid point but you must also understand line breeding is inbreeding separated by more distant relationships. Many use the term line breed to take the focus off of the terminology of inbreeding, which often has a negative connotation. If you have baby's with your cousin however they are inbred. In closed populations inbreeding is a tool in open populations however it is a choice. I am not against all inbreeding/line breeding as it can be a positive tool in some situations. I am against however haphazard inbreeding and inbreeding without a goal other than to produce pups. If you have the moxie to cull a sick pup, you have an end goal in mind you are working toward and you can justify how the end result improves the breed/line then you are making an informed choice.
> 
> My experience is over 30 years of owning, training, showing and rescuing. Personally I have chosen to rescue most Pits I have personally cared for. Rescue is not for everyone though looking for a dog and I believe in freedom of choice. Also I believe in being non-judgmental. Something not all hear follow. I attack no one on their opinions, only when I see facts mis-represented. And why Hirihat would you even question me on this posts topic, when you yourself admit to having little knowledge of bloodlines or registries. I lay my evidence out for all to see. I do not ask people to believe me, I ask people to educate themselves and to then make their own personal choices. The topic of this post is about registries. Why would you chime in to tear down something you do not know about? If you know something your input is appreciated if not you should take the time to learn, experience and then judge.
> 
> As far as anyone getting a dog just so they can ??????? with, that is not a responsible reason to own one. A dog should be a lifestyle choice and not a choice of convenience or whim.
> 
> As far semantics, maybe a little depending on the definition you use but this is not to start arguments. If I was doing this I would not source, much the same way as my critics.
> 
> In regards to Merle I have proven with evidence the Merle has been part of the breed and has even contributed to some of the best know lines. Colby, Loposay, Corvino, and just yesterday as posted with Carver. To see more visit the Merle thread though as that is off topic for here.
> 
> In regards to Stratton. Highly respect him and his writings on the breed and know he will go down in the history of the breed as one of its foremost historians. You act as if I have attacked him. I have done nothing but speak positive of him and used some of the same words he put down on paper himself. You know I always quote and even provide the page number the information can be found on. Just because what he says may be inconvenient to you does not give the right to take what I say and twist it Rock Creek. Richard, your great.


OK, few little things here....I have NEVER attacked anyone for thinking/feeling/believing differently than I do. I personally prefer to converse with people who have differing beliefs as I find it to be a better learning opportunity. I did not insult/attack you and if you took it that way, so be it.

2nd thing, I read the bloodline threads in order to gain knowledge, the same reason I read every article, vet magazine, breed book etc....I enjoy learning. I will say though, the main thing I have learned from you is that your writing style is done in such a way as to be demeaning to the majority of readers. Trying to overlook that is difficult. You lose your audience and any credibility when people feel you are trying to come across as superior, just FYI..

3rd thing, I was asking questions. It's a very simple matter that most people do very often. Asking a question is an excellent way to expand your knowledge of a subject. For instance, asking about your personal experience was honestly asking about your experience since you have been so quick to tell others they are wrong but have provided no personal history whereas many people have. It made me curious as to why you felt it necessary to defend organizations that so many in the dog world find to be reprehensible in their practices.

4th thing, if you are truly an enthusiast of the breed, why would you want to own banned dogs or move to a locale that bans them? You endanger them by them merely existing, even before you look at the health defects of such a limited gene pool.

5th thing, for someone who claims to be non-judgmental, you sure are quick to try and jump on others! LOL I "chimed in" simply because I felt like it. Your posts left me with questions and I chose to post those questions. Period. It's not some huge thing. It happens all the time. Get used to it.

6th thing, yeah, I will state that inbred animals in closed populations are little more than exterminators for any breed/species. Look at the Tasmanian Devil, for instance. So, MY stance would be that it is better for a breed to NOT be inbred and therefore seriously genetically flawed just to say you have representatives of the breed (poor specimens, though they may be) in a specific locale. I would rather a specific breed not be found in a specific locale rather than line up victims for euthanization

Next.....From what my friends in AU say, they will seize and destroy dogs in the span of a breath in BSL territories. Why would you endanger an animal on purpose like that? If you truly love the breed, IMO, you do not put them in harm's way.

As for rescue issues....it's a simple matter. If you are passionate about rescue, how an you not notice the pure bred dogs in every shelter and rescue? How can you excuse poor breedings that produce even more animals that need care they will not get? How can you promote organizations that do not advocate health and welfare of the breed over anything else? Maybe some organizations don't have certain services others have but at the same time what service to any community is a registry serving if their primary goal is to increase the value of a puppy? I have never met anyone passionate about rescue who feels making dogs more easily "papered" is a good thing.

My last thought on this is also a rather simple concept. I really think you would choose to take the opposing opinion on the color of the sky if it meant you get to antagonize others. For all your claims of laying everything on the table, you didn't answer some very simple questions...rather you sort of skipped over them. You did the very thing you are accusing others of and you took only what you wanted out of my post. Therefore, I have to draw the conclusion that however vast you may feel your knowledge is, it is not worth my consideration if your main objective is to antagonize.


----------



## pitbullfanatic

First I apologize to all readers for the length of this post. The post topic is supposed to be about the CKC, APBR and other registries. ALL registries welcomed, good and bad experiences. Please post accordingly? If anyone wishes to message me or start a post or anything else that varies off this topic and wishes me to be part of it please feel free to do so and ask. I will be happy to take part on all invitations as best to my ability.

Now for the rest:



los44 said:


> are you like drunk and i dont mean this in an offensive manner but you are all over the place and thats just in this post


Yet more slander. You say you are not trying to be offensive but yet you try to not only discredit me here but my other posts as well. People please read previous posts before making comments on a last post.



Hirihat said:


> OK, few little things here....I have NEVER attacked anyone for thinking/feeling/believing differently than I do. I personally prefer to converse with people who have differing beliefs as I find it to be a better learning opportunity. I did not insult/attack you and if you took it that way, so be it.


 Jumping on a bandwagon about a post I made on another thread about inbreeding, where that post has been taken out of context and that you have not read I do feel is an attack.



Hirihat said:


> 2nd thing, I read the bloodline threads in order to gain knowledge, the same reason I read every article, vet magazine, breed book etc....I enjoy learning. I will say though, the main thing I have learned from you is that your writing style is done in such a way as to be demeaning to the majority of readers. Trying to overlook that is difficult. You lose your audience and any credibility when people feel you are trying to come across as superior, just FYI..


 Seems like my credibility is rising? Seems like I am also bringing some of those who were previously shy to placing their opinion out into the open. Demeaning no. Confrontational about the truth, maybe? Willing to be rolled over, never!



Hirihat said:


> 3rd thing, I was asking questions. It's a very simple matter that most people do very often. Asking a question is an excellent way to expand your knowledge of a subject. For instance, asking about your personal experience was honestly asking about your experience since you have been so quick to tell others they are wrong but have provided no personal history whereas many people have. It made me curious as to why you felt it necessary to defend organizations that so many in the dog world find to be reprehensible in their practices.


 I do not tell people they are wrong unless there is evidence to support such. I also never ask for personal details. If someone volunteers information that is fine. I do not think I have taken anyone's personal details and abused them however? If anyone thinks I have I give my deepest apology. If someone has a different opinion I respect such. Maybe I will tell them I disagree but I still respect them. Placing an opinion as fact and then berating others who do not believe in it though I do not feel is acceptable.



Hirihat said:


> 4th thing, if you are truly an enthusiast of the breed, why would you want to own banned dogs or move to a locale that bans them? You endanger them by them merely existing, even before you look at the health defects of such a limited gene pool.


 Here again I could take this as an attack, but I think this really comes from your heart as I feel that you have a strong emotion for rescue and do not realize how people like Rock Creek have mis-lead you. BSL does not cover all Australia. I would not live in a place that had such. Same holds here in the USA. By your argument though no one here should own a Pit Bull either simply because some places have BSL.



Hirihat said:


> 5th thing, for someone who claims to be non-judgmental, you sure are quick to try and jump on others! LOL I "chimed in" simply because I felt like it. Your posts left me with questions and I chose to post those questions. Period. It's not some huge thing. It happens all the time. Get used to it.


 As you can see your questions have taken the post off topic. As far as jumping on people look back and it seems the other way around. I am the one being ganged up on.



Hirihat said:


> 6th thing, yeah, I will state that inbred animals in closed populations are little more than exterminators for any breed/species.





Hirihat said:


> Next.....From what my friends in AU say, they will seize and destroy dogs in the span of a breath in BSL territories. Why would you endanger an animal on purpose like that? If you truly love the breed, IMO, you do not put them in harm's way.


 This is not what I said. I said that in a closed system, inbreeding is used as a tool by conservationists as a method of saving from extinction. When possible they then move further and further away from an inbreeding model. So really even though you are up in arms about reading a partial comment of mine and a comment taken out of text from another post we are really closer in ideology than you think. Please read my post before you make judgments based on the slander of others. http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/14529-adba-paper.html

Yes seizure and euthanasia happens in many places around the world. Also true here in America.

Rock Kennel I ask that if you are going to quote me or mis-quote me save me the trouble of pointing this out to others. At least be honorable and take the time to find what you are quoting and place a link to it. I am willing to defend any of my positions but this is hard to do when you are being mis-quoted, taken out of context and slandered.



Hirihat said:


> As for rescue issues....it's a simple matter. If you are passionate about rescue, how an you not notice the pure bred dogs in every shelter and rescue?


 This is really deep. I would love to discuss with you the full dynamics of what I understand about the situation from a considerable amount of personal involvement. I have also been asked to keep this thread on topic. Nicer by some than others. If someone wishes to tell me how to start a post I think having one on the Pit Bull community response to Pit Bulls in need would be great. I have looked into how to do this but have yet to figure it out. A lot of people here talk about their rescue efforts but there does not seem to be much coordination to help better address the issue. Working together we can create greater impact. Continuing to attack based on personal philosophies only hurts the breed.



Hirihat said:


> How can you excuse poor breedings that produce even more animals that need care they will not get? How can you promote organizations that do not advocate health and welfare of the breed over anything else?


 Please read my posts before throwing this accusation. Never have I advocated such.

You also need to understand that the base purpose for a registry is to record lineage. Anything else they do is extra.

Placing the responsibility of the breeder onto a registry will never solve the problem of bad breeders. If health is the highest standard it is an impossible one to meet in the pure bred animal industry. People who advocate remove Merle because of health that is fine if the UKC or others wish to do such but I think if that is the sincere reason then it should be applied to all other 399 breeds and encompass many more things than Merle. Such as inbreeding, whiting genes and numerous other trait that are specifically built into the dog out of pure fancy. This standard would also eliminate MOST breeds from consideration.

I simply say let each registry stand on its own merits based on what its true base purpose is and those who do not have experience have no need to slander. I understand that there are many factions in the Pit Bull community and many are brand specific. Just because someone like their brand does not mean they need to talk down about another's brand of choice. (I like ham, you like peanut butter and jelly - YOU SUCK!!!.) See now isn't that unnecessary?



Hirihat said:


> Maybe some organizations don't have certain services others have but at the same time what service to any community is a registry serving if their primary goal is to increase the value of a puppy? I have never met anyone passionate about rescue who feels making dogs more easily "papered" is a good thing.


 This is also a long discussion I think you would very much be interested in. Once I figure out how to create a post if someone will remind me I will be happy to start one on my theories in a new response by the humane community. GUARANTEED TO BE HOT!!!

As above the base purpose of any registry is recording linage. Everything extra is extra. Differentiation is what makes each unique. The APBR makes itself unique in that it advocates more for rescue than any other.

30 years the so called humane community has been spinning its wheels on the over-population agenda. I have 20 years in non-profit experience and know that most such places exist so that people can draw a paycheck. There is little passion or compassion. Most do not really want a real solution to their stated problem as a true solution means a loss of their income. An honorable non-profit in many cases should make a goal of putting itself out of business by fixing a problem. 30 years the humane industry still has done nothing as a whole to change the dynamic of unwanted pets. No Kill is taking off however and that does give me some hope. No Kill I do feel is a viable model but there is a long way to go and a response by registries will have to be a part of the solution. As long as both registries and the humane community are unwilling to really work together then there will always be an unwanted pet issue.



Hirihat said:


> My last thought on this is also a rather simple concept. I really think you would choose to take the opposing opinion on the color of the sky if it meant you get to antagonize others.


 That would be based on what someone said the sky color was. Some here seem like they live on Mars where the sky is actually red. If someone here told me the sky here was black and in fact it was blue I would be happy to help them understand their error.



Hirihat said:


> For all your claims of laying everything on the table, you didn't answer some very simple questions...rather you sort of skipped over them. You did the very thing you are accusing others of and you took only what you wanted out of my post.


 I think I explained my point on this but would be happy to draw greater clarity with specific questions that are not meant to be used, twisted and put off as answers of my own. Also do not see any linkage between what I did and I what I am accusing people of. My main accusations are that people do not take the time to read, learn and then provide reasoned logic behind their beliefs. I respect anyone who can come to a reasoned conclusion and a different opinion.



Hirihat said:


> Therefore, I have to draw the conclusion that however vast you may feel your knowledge is, it is not worth my consideration if your main objective is to antagonize.


 I do not see how being beat up for something you believe in is antagonistic. Are the brown shirts coming?


----------



## StaffyDaddy

pitbullfanatic said:


> First I apologize to all readers for the length of this post. The post topic is supposed to be about the CKC, APBR and other registries. ALL registries welcomed, good and bad experiences. Please post accordingly? If anyone wishes to message me or start a post or anything else that varies off this topic and wishes me to be part of it please feel free to do so and ask. I will be happy to take part on all invitations as best to my ability.
> 
> Now for the rest:
> 
> Yet more slander. You say you are not trying to be offensive but yet you try to not only discredit me here but my other posts as well. People please read previous posts before making comments on a last post.
> 
> Jumping on a bandwagon about a post I made on another thread about inbreeding, where that post has been taken out of context and that you have not read I do feel is an attack.
> 
> Seems like my credibility is rising? Seems like I am also bringing some of those who were previously shy to placing their opinion out into the open. Demeaning no. Confrontational about the truth, maybe? Willing to be rolled over, never!
> 
> I do not tell people they are wrong unless there is evidence to support such. I also never ask for personal details. If someone volunteers information that is fine. I do not think I have taken anyone's personal details and abused them however? If anyone thinks I have I give my deepest apology. If someone has a different opinion I respect such. Maybe I will tell them I disagree but I still respect them. Placing an opinion as fact and then berating others who do not believe in it though I do not feel is acceptable.
> 
> Here again I could take this as an attack, but I think this really comes from your heart as I feel that you have a strong emotion for rescue and do not realize how people like Rock Creek have mis-lead you. BSL does not cover all Australia. I would not live in a place that had such. Same holds here in the USA. By your argument though no one here should own a Pit Bull either simply because some places have BSL.
> 
> As you can see your questions have taken the post off topic. As far as jumping on people look back and it seems the other way around. I am the one being ganged up on.
> 
> This is not what I said. I said that in a closed system, inbreeding is used as a tool by conservationists as a method of saving from extinction. When possible they then move further and further away from an inbreeding model. So really even though you are up in arms about reading a partial comment of mine and a comment taken out of text from another post we are really closer in ideology than you think. Please read my post before you make judgments based on the slander of others. http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/14529-adba-paper.html
> 
> Yes seizure and euthanasia happens in many places around the world. Also true here in America.
> 
> Rock Kennel I ask that if you are going to quote me or mis-quote me save me the trouble of pointing this out to others. At least be honorable and take the time to find what you are quoting and place a link to it. I am willing to defend any of my positions but this is hard to do when you are being mis-quoted, taken out of context and slandered.
> 
> This is really deep. I would love to discuss with you the full dynamics of what I understand about the situation from a considerable amount of personal involvement. I have also been asked to keep this thread on topic. Nicer by some than others. If someone wishes to tell me how to start a post I think having one on the Pit Bull community response to Pit Bulls in need would be great. I have looked into how to do this but have yet to figure it out. A lot of people here talk about their rescue efforts but there does not seem to be much coordination to help better address the issue. Working together we can create greater impact. Continuing to attack based on personal philosophies only hurts the breed.
> 
> Please read my posts before throwing this accusation. Never have I advocated such.
> 
> You also need to understand that the base purpose for a registry is to record lineage. Anything else they do is extra.
> 
> Placing the responsibility of the breeder onto a registry will never solve the problem of bad breeders. If health is the highest standard it is an impossible one to meet in the pure bred animal industry. People who advocate remove Merle because of health that is fine if the UKC or others wish to do such but I think if that is the sincere reason then it should be applied to all other 399 breeds and encompass many more things than Merle. Such as inbreeding, whiting genes and numerous other trait that are specifically built into the dog out of pure fancy. This standard would also eliminate MOST breeds from consideration.
> 
> I simply say let each registry stand on its own merits based on what its true base purpose is and those who do not have experience have no need to slander. I understand that there are many factions in the Pit Bull community and many are brand specific. Just because someone like their brand does not mean they need to talk down about another's brand of choice. (I like ham, you like peanut butter and jelly - YOU SUCK!!!.) See now isn't that unnecessary?
> 
> This is also a long discussion I think you would very much be interested in. Once I figure out how to create a post if someone will remind me I will be happy to start one on my theories in a new response by the humane community. GUARANTEED TO BE HOT!!!
> 
> As above the base purpose of any registry is recording linage. Everything extra is extra. Differentiation is what makes each unique. The APBR makes itself unique in that it advocates more for rescue than any other.
> 
> 30 years the so called humane community has been spinning its wheels on the over-population agenda. I have 20 years in non-profit experience and know that most such places exist so that people can draw a paycheck. There is little passion or compassion. Most do not really want a real solution to their stated problem as a true solution means a loss of their income. An honorable non-profit in many cases should make a goal of putting itself out of business by fixing a problem. 30 years the humane industry still has done nothing as a whole to change the dynamic of unwanted pets. No Kill is taking off however and that does give me some hope. No Kill I do feel is a viable model but there is a long way to go and a response by registries will have to be a part of the solution. As long as both registries and the humane community are unwilling to really work together then there will always be an unwanted pet issue.
> 
> That would be based on what someone said the sky color was. Some here seem like they live on Mars where the sky is actually red. If someone here told me the sky here was black and in fact it was blue I would be happy to help them understand their error.
> 
> I think I explained my point on this but would be happy to draw greater clarity with specific questions that are not meant to be used, twisted and put off as answers of my own. Also do not see any linkage between what I did and I what I am accusing people of. My main accusations are that people do not take the time to read, learn and then provide reasoned logic behind their beliefs. I respect anyone who can come to a reasoned conclusion and a different opinion.
> 
> I do not see how being beat up for something you believe in is antagonistic. Are the brown shirts coming?


Can anyone say longwinded?? :flush:


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels

Wow. :hammer:


----------



## ForPits&Giggles

This person is the best deflector I have ever seen.. But still wrong...


----------



## StaffyDaddy

ForPits&Giggles said:


> This person is the best deflector I have ever seen.. But still wrong...


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## kstr0h

enough already

explain all you want and waste time typing these huge responses.
but the bottom line is, ckc etc are bad regestries
period.


----------



## Hirihat

I have a Rottweiler that is a pet store rescue (long story short, big dog, 3.5 months old with pneumonia and a hernia in a puppy store that specilizes in small fad dogs. We couldn't leave her there although she was expensive!). Now, when we purchased her, we were told she was AKC...well, guess what? Her litter was CKC registered. So, out of interest, I got her papers. There was no ped available on either parent and the dam was listed as being dual registered with the AKC (why would you register an AKC dog with the CKC also???) but the AKC number is a fake according to the AKC. I called the puppy store for more info and was given the name of the breeder and the breeder had no info. SO, I called the CKC and asked how they could register the litter without peds on the parents and the response I received was "we have their pictures". Now, a Rott is a pretty easy breed to id but I couldn't help but wonder what if you sent a blurry pic of a fat doberman??? Would they say that's a Rott??? So, we send in a pic, $15 and a form to the CKC on the neighbor's then 8 year old mutt who is a shepherd/hound dog mix as a GSD. They issued the certificate. We then sent in the same information, the same pic but it WAS a different $15 (LOL) and registered him as a blood hound. 

So, I guess they MUST be legit and running a registry to track bloodlines and create peds rather than just trying to get your money, right??? LMAO


----------



## StaffyDaddy

Hirihat said:


> I have a Rottweiler that is a pet store rescue (long story short, big dog, 3.5 months old with pneumonia and a hernia in a puppy store that specilizes in small fad dogs. We couldn't leave her there although she was expensive!). Now, when we purchased her, we were told she was AKC...well, guess what? Her litter was CKC registered. So, out of interest, I got her papers. There was no ped available on either parent and the dam was listed as being dual registered with the AKC (why would you register an AKC dog with the CKC also???) but the AKC number is a fake according to the AKC. I called the puppy store for more info and was given the name of the breeder and the breeder had no info. SO, I called the CKC and asked how they could register the litter without peds on the parents and the response I received was "we have their pictures". Now, a Rott is a pretty easy breed to id but I couldn't help but wonder what if you sent a blurry pic of a fat doberman??? Would they say that's a Rott??? So, we send in a pic, $15 and a form to the CKC on the neighbor's then 8 year old mutt who is a shepherd/hound dog mix as a GSD. They issued the certificate. We then sent in the same information, the same pic but it WAS a different $15 (LOL) and registered him as a blood hound.
> 
> So, I guess they MUST be legit and running a registry to track bloodlines and create peds rather than just trying to get your money, right??? LMAO


Go GIRL! :goodpost:


----------



## kstr0h

Hirihat said:


> I have a Rottweiler that is a pet store rescue (long story short, big dog, 3.5 months old with pneumonia and a hernia in a puppy store that specilizes in small fad dogs. We couldn't leave her there although she was expensive!). Now, when we purchased her, we were told she was AKC...well, guess what? Her litter was CKC registered. So, out of interest, I got her papers. There was no ped available on either parent and the dam was listed as being dual registered with the AKC (why would you register an AKC dog with the CKC also???) but the AKC number is a fake according to the AKC. I called the puppy store for more info and was given the name of the breeder and the breeder had no info. SO, I called the CKC and asked how they could register the litter without peds on the parents and the response I received was "we have their pictures". Now, a Rott is a pretty easy breed to id but I couldn't help but wonder what if you sent a blurry pic of a fat doberman??? Would they say that's a Rott??? So, we send in a pic, $15 and a form to the CKC on the neighbor's then 8 year old mutt who is a shepherd/hound dog mix as a GSD. They issued the certificate. We then sent in the same information, the same pic but it WAS a different $15 (LOL) and registered him as a blood hound.
> 
> So, I guess they MUST be legit and running a registry to track bloodlines and create peds rather than just trying to get your money, right??? LMAO


 perfect example of how there crap.
too bad you lost $30 haha


----------



## Hirihat

kstr0h said:


> perfect example of how there crap.
> too bad you lost $30 haha


didn't lose it....I know EXACTLY where it went!!! LOL


----------



## FloorCandy

Hirihat said:


> didn't lose it....I know EXACTLY where it went!!! LOL


If I had the extra cash right now I would take a pic of my pug, and register Lady the pit as a pug in the CKC lol. Then if I ever run into trouble with neighbors I could show them my legit papers stating she's a harmless lap dog lolol. But I think if I had an extra $15 bux it would be better used going into Thor's fund, then the pockets of the CKC.


----------



## Hirihat

FloorCandy said:


> If I had the extra cash right now I would take a pic of my pug, and register Lady the pit as a pug in the CKC lol. Then if I ever run into trouble with neighbors I could show them my legit papers stating she's a harmless lap dog lolol. But I think if I had an extra $15 bux it would be better used going into Thor's fund, then the pockets of the CKC.


 A little off topic but in some places if your vet declares your dog as a specific breed or mix, it can help you can fight BSL stuff....I have a friend who has all of hers listed as "Terrier Mixes" on their rabies certificates and vet charts. She was able to use this to fight back when her insurance company changed their policy and tried to drop her homeowner's so she could get a different company without a coverage lapse.....


----------



## pitbullfanatic

Hirihat said:


> A little off topic but in some places if your vet declares your dog as a specific breed or mix, it can help you can fight BSL stuff....I have a friend who has all of hers listed as "Terrier Mixes" on their rabies certificates and vet charts. She was able to use this to fight back when her insurance company changed their policy and tried to drop her homeowner's so she could get a different company without a coverage lapse.....


Nice Staffy Daddy take the quote out of the context of its post and then belittle. If you really believed the post was so long winded you could have simply said _I was long winded without pulling the qoute and leaving all the associated questions that I was answering left out._ I doubt you would say you are long winded if someone ask you a whole series of questions, was attacking you and you answered in a complete manner.

Hirihat thank you for your actual experience. What you have said highlights my point quite well. If you have someone who is unwilling to be ethical then they can hang papers. Happens with ALL registries. Since people obviously are not reading past posts I guess I will be forced to go back to citing everything in every post:

AKC -
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/about/secretary_page/0303.pdf
"Brenda Addleman (Omaha, NE) was
suspended from all event privileges for
two years, effective January 22, 2003,
and fined $1,000 for entering, or causing
to be entered, and exhibiting, or
causing to be exhibited, a Cocker
Spaniel *other than the one represented
on the entry form*."

I have also advocated that owners who register in such a fraudulent way should also be held legally and civilly liable by all parties involved, including the affected registry as they are also victims of such fraud. People like your Hirihat are one of the reasons why the whole industry has a bad reputation not just the CKC.

Also from a previous post you said "You know, I am the very first to admit that I don't know much about bloodlines and registries." It seems that too was a lie. Maybe you meant "honest experience". Given the situation pardon me if I do not have much confidence in your story. Please provide a copy of the CKC paperwork and proof that it belongs to the dog you say. If you can not provide proof I will assume you are merely fabricating things to support your position.


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## kstr0h

pitbullfanatic said:


> Nice Staffy Daddy take the quote out of the context of its post and then belittle. If you really believed the post was so long winded you could have simply said _I was long winded without pulling the qoute and leaving all the associated questions that I was answering left out._ I doubt you would say you are long winded if someone ask you a whole series of questions, was attacking you and you answered in a complete manner.
> 
> Hirihat thank you for your actual experience. What you have said highlights my point quite well. If you have someone who is unwilling to be ethical then they can hang papers. Happens with ALL registries. Since people obviously are not reading past posts I guess I will be forced to go back to citing everything in every post:
> 
> AKC -
> http://www.akc.org/pdfs/about/secretary_page/0303.pdf
> "Brenda Addleman (Omaha, NE) was
> suspended from all event privileges for
> two years, effective January 22, 2003,
> and fined $1,000 for entering, or causing
> to be entered, and exhibiting, or
> causing to be exhibited, a Cocker
> Spaniel *other than the one represented
> on the entry form*."
> 
> I have also advocated that owners who register in such a fraudulent way should also be held legally and civilly liable by all parties involved, including the affected registry as they are also victims of such fraud. People like your Hirihat are one of the reasons why the whole industry has a bad reputation not just the CKC.
> 
> Also from a previous post you said "You know, I am the very first to admit that I don't know much about bloodlines and registries." It seems that too was a lie. Maybe you meant "honest experience". Given the situation pardon me if I do not have much confidence in your story. Please provide a copy of the CKC paperwork and proof that it belongs to the dog you say. If you can not provide proof I will assume you are merely fabricating things to support your position.


:stick::rofl:


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## FloorCandy

O M G... I am done being goaded into responding to this nonsense, honestly I would encourage everyone else to do the same, let him get the last word, and let his worthless posts sink and die, he will never back down, we are wasting our time and energy.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

This is my final warning to everyone... chill out... I'm feeling like waving the ban stick more and more every time i see this post and one or two other posts. People need to stop arguing just to argue...


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## DCPitbull

haha the ban stick :clap:


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## StaffyDaddy

pitbullfanatic said:


> Nice Staffy Daddy take the quote out of the context of its post and then belittle. If you really believed the post was so long winded you could have simply said _I was long winded without pulling the qoute and leaving all the associated questions that I was answering left out._ I doubt you would say you are long winded if someone ask you a whole series of questions, was attacking you and you answered in a complete manner.


Dude... When you quote something that contains other people's quotes, it doesnt carry over. I didnt take anything out of context. Stop getting all butthurt.. I have probably said the smallest amount of words to you. Grow the f**k up. The more and more I read your posts its like a little kid that always has some argument to say back. "why?" why? why?

Seems like you take every single response personally, and you have to justify what you say to every person you address. I have my views, but I don't beat it like a dead horse.


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## pitbullfanatic

Double Posted From Above


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## pitbullfanatic

Hirihat said:


> A little off topic but in some places if your vet declares your dog as a specific breed or mix, it can help you can fight BSL stuff....I have a friend who has all of hers listed as "Terrier Mixes" on their rabies certificates and vet charts. She was able to use this to fight back when her insurance company changed their policy and tried to drop her homeowner's so she could get a different company without a coverage lapse.....


That probably sounds fine on the face for the poor person facing BSL but conducting such activities in a fraudulent manner whether vet or victim in the end only exacerbates the problem with BSL and the mis-identification of Pit Bulls. This is exactly what the BSL politicians prey upon. Instead of trying to commit fraud with insurance a person should try to find a different insurance provider. Not all insurance discriminates and not all ask what kind of dog. People when your insurance ask's you if you have a dog the answer is just "YES" not "Yeah I got a Pit Bull". If they do not ask the breed do not set yourself up for failure.

Also in regards to frauding insurance you may think you are getting away with something. When there is an incedence however and the insurance decides to claim fraud you will not receive payout from them, thus making the policy invalid and putting you in a bind as you will then be held responsible. If you are lucky fraud charges will not be filed. Insurance policis are databsed and shared by many insurance companies. If they claim fraud on you this will make it significantly harder to get insurance anywhere else. If you have ever had a car accident (your fault or not) just see what happens if you try to change to another insurance company. This sharing of information is specifically intended to stop and catch fraud. Any body heard of the saying two wrongs do not make a right?

Instead of someone looking for ways to defraud other people and organizations people need to look at doing the right thing. If insurance does not meet your needs go elsewhere. If you have exhausted ALL other options then it may be time to either consider moving or reconsidering your position of ownership until you can put yourself in a more honest situation.



StaffyDaddy said:


> Dude... When you quote something that contains other people's quotes, it doesnt carry over. I didnt take anything out of context. Stop getting all butthurt.. I have probably said the smallest amount of words to you. Grow the f**k up. The more and more I read your posts its like a little kid that always has some argument to say back. "why?" why? why?
> 
> Seems like you take every single response personally, and you have to justify what you say to every person you address. I have my views, but I don't beat it like a dead horse.


If I am attacked I will defend. If someone makes a baseless charge I will respond. If someone slanders I will bring it to their attention. I someone is misleading, uneducated or lying I will highlight the truth and provide sources. If someone asks me a question I will provide a thorough answer. At heart I am the gamest of game Pit Bulls and no I will never give up what I feel is right.

If you do not like then do not read. You tell me to grow up. When I have a conversation with someone the language they use is an indicator of their maturity level.

If you do not have something to say of value, there is no need to chime in.


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## Hirihat

pitbullfanatic said:


> That probably sounds fine on the face for the poor person facing BSL but conducting such activities in a fraudulent manner whether vet or victim in the end only exacerbates the problem with BSL and the mis-identification of Pit Bulls. This is exactly what the BSL politicians prey upon. Instead of trying to commit fraud with insurance a person should try to find a different insurance provider. Not all insurance discriminates and not all ask what kind of dog. People when your insurance ask's you if you have a dog the answer is just "YES" not "Yeah I got a Pit Bull". If they do not ask the breed do not set yourself up for failure.
> 
> Also in regards to frauding insurance you may think you are getting away with something. When there is an incedence however and the insurance decides to claim fraud you will not receive payout from them, thus making the policy invalid and putting you in a bind as you will then be held responsible. If you are lucky fraud charges will not be filed. Insurance policis are databsed and shared by many insurance companies. If they claim fraud on you this will make it significantly harder to get insurance anywhere else. If you have ever had a car accident (your fault or not) just see what happens if you try to change to another insurance company. This sharing of information is specifically intended to stop and catch fraud. Any body heard of the saying two wrongs do not make a right?


Actually, since she, like me, has rescues, breed is actually indeterminate. I should have mentioned that.

And FYI, check out homeowner's insurance policies. If you have been dropped by a carrier even if it is due to them making changes to their structure (which it was in her case) you cannot get insurance with another carrier without an expensive retainer for the policy.

So, I'm out. Go argue with yourself.


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## pitbullfanatic

Hirihat said:


> Actually, since she, like me, has rescues, breed is actually indeterminate. I should have mentioned that.
> 
> And FYI, check out homeowner's insurance policies. If you have been dropped by a carrier even if it is due to them making changes to their structure (which it was in her case) you cannot get insurance with another carrier without an expensive retainer for the policy.
> 
> So, I'm out. Go argue with yourself.


Sorry that you see this as an argument. I am very aware of insurance. The point is don't get insurance that will drop you, don't reveal unnecessary information to your insurance that will make them want to drop you and if you are getting a notice of being dropped be proactive in finding new before it happens.

Yes, I agree once canceled you definitely have a problem. Also you did not say they "had" dropped her you said the insurance company "tried to drop" insurance. This was the time for her to back out not after the fact. People have to stop playing the victim role and be proactive in their own care. Was she a victim initially maybe, but if there are other choices you choose not to take at the appropriate time then you choose to remain a victim. Seems the way of much in society today.

All this being said nothing gives her a right to be fraudulent especially when entering into contract situations. I repeat myself two wrongs do not make a right.


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## nate

i will tell you what fanatic to shut me up sendin and order the dna kit for all the dogs on your yard and i will do the same and i will one up u i will send in my amstaffs dna for testing one catch i cant post mine and you cant post your the girl from the adba will post them

and the same for any whopper or gotti dog

if you want a bet on top of that i sure you can get a few

you want a bet from me be at the ga adba pull body pound most weight take your pick i will give you five to one $100 will get you 5



pitbullfanatic said:


> Sorry that you see this as an argument. I am very aware of insurance. The point is don't get insurance that will drop you, don't reveal unnecessary information to your insurance that will make them want to drop you and if you are getting a notice of being dropped be proactive in finding new before it happens.
> 
> Yes, I agree once canceled you definitely have a problem. Also you did not say they "had" dropped her you said the insurance company "tried to drop" insurance. This was the time for her to back out not after the fact. People have to stop playing the victim role and be proactive in their own care. Was she a victim initially maybe, but if there are other choices you choose not to take at the appropriate time then you choose to remain a victim. Seems the way of much in society today.
> 
> All this being said nothing gives her a right to be fraudulent especially when entering into contract situations. I repeat myself two wrongs do not make a right.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN

Look the only way you can get the dogs registered is through the ckc i just called adba and they don't accept the ckc but the ckc accepts adba so if you want some kind of registry on your dog it will have to be ckc but you said the dad had a ckc number witch is possible because in order to have the pups registered both dogs will have to be registered with the same club so what im trying to say is the dad can be daul registered but the pups can't and for the breeder to tell you it could was wrong!


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## StaffyDaddy

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> Look the only way you can get the dogs registered is through the ckc i just called adba and they don't accept the ckc but the ckc accepts adba so if you want some kind of registry on your dog it will have to be ckc but you said the dad had a ckc number witch is possible because in order to have the pups registered both dogs will have to be registered with the same club so what im trying to say is the dad can be daul registered but the pups can't and for the breeder to tell you it could was wrong!


Simple and plain, a ckc will register ANYTHING, so there is no point in turning in CKC paperwork. Only reputable registries are the ADBA, the UKC, and the AKC if you have an AST. And if both parents aren't papered with one and the same, then the litter will never be registered.


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## florida bull

I think i was shafted by a breeder with this CKC stuff. The sire of my pup i got from them is ADBA and UKC. After waiting forever for the papers from them i got CKC papers. I am still trying to investigate why the breeder would have done this. The dam on the CKC paper work i got has number from CKC and "other" reg. numbers, but i noticed in the ped. after the dam, it has grandparents name with no numbers, then reads orginal stock. Just sent lenghty letter in detail to ADBA to see what if anything i can do to get my pup adba registered.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN

florida bull said:


> I think i was shafted by a breeder with this CKC stuff. The sire of my pup i got from them is ADBA and UKC. After waiting forever for the papers from them i got CKC papers. I am still trying to investigate why the breeder would have done this. The dam on the CKC paper work i got has number from CKC and "other" reg. numbers, but i noticed in the ped. after the dam, it has grandparents name with no numbers, then reads orginal stock. Just sent lenghty letter in detail to ADBA to see what if anything i can do to get my pup adba registered.


i think there is nothing you can do to get her regisrterd if the sire is adba and ukc and the mom is just ckc in the opinion of the adba the ckc is not reliable eanough so they don't recognize them. I wish it was better news for you but its not if you find any thing else out about thea let me know..


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## florida bull

Yeah. ADBA said that i had to get the breeder to sign a form attesting that the breeding took place. The breeder is one that has both UKC and ADBA dogs. I dont know why they pulled this. The dogs sire side is stacked with well known dogs, then you look at the dam, and its kinda shady, 2 generations, then original stock. I have found some stuff on internet that is couple years old that suggest that the dam was a popular one and is possibily reistered with another registry. Still trying to sort it out. Attempts at calling them and emailing have yielded nothing so far, and they are about 8 hours from me so i cant just drive over.


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## nate

dude i hate to break it to you but once someone drops the ball thats it no good paper's for that dog
Just look at this way think of all the dogs out there without adba ,ukc or akc paper's every bulldog out there papers came from a bulldog with paper's somewhere done the line 
Hell my staffy's are out akc/ukc dog's and dont have paper's and i cant get them becaulse my cousin didnt paper deago's dam 
but Hog dog's dont tend to live long so why pay for paper's is the way he see's it 
i am tring to be good and not go on a rant so take it like it is no paper's for your dog


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## brose

*ckc reg.*

OMG I think you & I may have gotten a pup from the same people. Can you email me the reg. number so i can check yours with mine.? This is a scary thought. I am so upset about this whole situation. My email is [email protected] the reason I said to email it and not post it because no one else can copy it. Thanks and I will let you know what is up


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## American_Pit13

brose said:


> OMG I think you & I may have gotten a pup from the same people. Can you email me the reg. number so i can check yours with mine.? This is a scary thought. I am so upset about this whole situation. My email is [email protected] the reason I said to email it and not post it because no one else can copy it. Thanks and I will let you know what is up


This is a very old thread. You may not get a response to whom ever you are trying to talk with.


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## RubysBoxers

This is exactly why pitties are dropped at my house... I have 3 know wonder when I will se one of these "DUAL" registered pups. I have a couple that love to work and it is hell trying to enter them in events with no pedigrees. That or I have to join all the smaller registries to compete, BUT the points don't carry! 

Well u all knos all we needs is a boy N gurl... LOL


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## reddoggy

Spay and neuter them and get limited registrations with the bigger clubs.


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