# How many of you know how to read you dogs peds



## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

You see a lot of people posting about there bloodlines on there dogs how many know if they have a line bred peds and how many know if they have a scatter bred peds


----------



## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

I know the difference between line bred and scatter bred from what I have learned on this forum. My dog has no ped so it doesn't matter to me. I'm just watching and learning from everyone else so maybe one day I can use what I have learned.


----------



## cEElint (Oct 6, 2009)

i dont really know how to read them or really know if its scatterbred.. but i know my Dre dogg is 70 RE/30 Gaff .. 
Viewing Pedigree Details for Low Life's Dre Dogg of BNBully - Bully Breed Resource


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

I've researched my girls and can read hers. I have hers up on bully pedia my bitch is scatter bred bully and staff but lots of great dogs in her ped. What do you need help with? If you post it up we can help you.


----------



## PRSweetKandi (Aug 5, 2011)

honestly, since my girl has like half of hers that aren't on the bully pedia, I honestly don't know how to read it or get anything from it.... which sucks, but if you have a decent ped, it should be easy to read.


----------



## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

you mean the % of a stud dog in a ped? i usually have to look up the math formula, sometimes i cheat and use a ped program or website.

i guess im just confused by what you mean. like male on top female on bottom,% of bloodline in dog or what?


----------



## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

i wont post my dogs ped but its easy to see the various studs they used, the repeat breedings(which i love, means the breeding really clicked and was good enough to do again,usually).

a lot of people call my dog a jeep dog which, imo, shes not. has a higher % of crenshaw's gator than jeep but thats really splitting hairs so what ever


----------



## PRSweetKandi (Aug 5, 2011)

If I could get a good read on Kandi's ped I would be in heaven. Unfortunately, the dams on both sire and dam side are almost all unlisted, so it is very hard to judge what is there. From the sire's sire and the dam's sire I see all R.E and Grey line/ Gotti 

Bleh. Makes me head spin thinking of it. LOL


----------



## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Scatterbreed just means that the lines cross AmStaff, APBT, etc. That they are all over the place, correct? not just one breed but could be a few?


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Scatter need means coming from a few different lines. With out to many common ancestors up close.


----------



## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

peds arent hard to read all all,recognizing the names and knowing where they came from is the hardest part ,all our dogs are bred differently.Loki = scatterbred everything from lar san to watchdog.Luna=inbred edge/greyline/watchdog Pep almost pure edge.Cali is50/50 edge gotty.Zeke is Greyline(some would say gotty) GK and a lil bit of edge and crush is pure edge (maybee 2% Monster G)


----------



## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> Scatter need means coming from a few different lines. With out to many common ancestors up close.


 Thank you


----------



## Shelleyjoy (Jan 3, 2012)

Hi friends thanks for your wonderful sharing thank you.


----------



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I know ............I have a lot of peds to read.


----------



## Hanover Pits (Jan 29, 2010)

*Topic*

If you have a ped reading like say Tab Jr as the base or specific dog in the pedigree this is a Jeep/Redboy cross with Eli and carver blood through Honey bunch (though people claim that isn't her true pedigree). The three triangle cross. This bred back into Jeep, Eli, or Red Boy blood is line breeding off that specific line. Now Having Red Boy/Jocko/Jeep/eli blood..this is scatter breeding.


----------



## friedman's (Jun 20, 2012)

how do you tell the blood-lines when it don't show on the papers


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

If you have no common ancestors in a 4-5 its scattered by most peoples standards... however if all the dogs in the 4th are of not direct relation but the back 4 are all the same family of dogs then IMO your dog is of that family not just that one dog but what is made of is what has split and shared its exact genetic makeup.

However most all game dogs come from the same source with different traits purified by different dog men. Of course we all know Carver rung many peds back in the day to hide a formula of E Crenshaw breeding he used exclusively... back on track .. 
Redboy has many of the same make up of heavy colby/nebbletts with the corvino williams (tudors) out, Red Devil has corvino bred dogs on top (there is a scatterbred dog in there) Chief Boson but NOT REALLY as they pulled all the blood of Fly of Panama a pure colby dog, all together. ...

So for some Redboy could easily be an old family dog producing old family red noses.. However only a few good breeders or eyes of pedigree can spot this.

If a dog is inbred and pure this or that and has sired a strain of dogs that strain of dogs known such as Crenshaw Gator (jeep and redboy) essentially its a game colby dog JMO but the strains have been kept so tight that its easily discovered. .. Your dog is a product of the immediate 4 gen behind it. That 4th gen is made up of the 4 behind it.. So to know what you really have and how its gonna work with what its very important to remember a dogs 7 gen not just the 4 gen. Unless your an enthusiast and pedigree means nothing as long the dog can compete, pick your venue, in that case breeding and pedigree mean nothing to you essentially.

If your dog is 7/8 redboy and 1/8 Jeep or 7/8 Jeep and 1/8 redboy .. what is your dog really? I see pure colby behind redboy (*old family stuff*) As in Jeep all that loposay on top is pure colby. On bottom you got pure boudreaux founded from Blind Billy a pure Gimp bred dog. On top of Carvers Old family stuff.. .. so even though a strain is named after a dog often times its unfair to the genetics itself. Because how many dog men got their stuff from the same place? They just line bred down from what they got... Blind billy is essentially a corvino dog. Foundation to the boudreaux strain without deviating. So .. Jeep was an old family dog as well. So technically if your dog is pure jeep or pure redboy or redboy jeep with no tainted blood then they essentially are old family. .. redboy even more so IMO could even be OFRN; which would be why you see the redboy cross in modern (norrod) stuff I presume.

Now to clear things up if your dog is 7/8 redboy all double stacked, its still colby blood moving forward.. does that make sense? Cause redboy is pure colby. and is what a double bred Teals Sarge dog with williams/corvino out.

Im a breeder by Strattons definition as I see the make up of all dogs and the formulas so to speak where what came from and how, as Mr. Hammonds said often many times people over look the make up of their pedigree taking a name and just running with it.

So I have a litter coming up that I call scattered..

Halls,(topside) garner/sorrells, Lonzo(bottomside) X Hammonds (topside), Henizl bottom... all the strains are pure back to source except for the garner/sorrells that are twisted together. 
What is that source? 
well its pure boudreaux purified by Bobby Hall, on top of snooty and all the sorrells goodies, with a 1/4 pure shot of Lonzo all the way back. .. the female is Alligator by way of park son and plumber bred dogs with garners snooty blood and Halls/Boudreaux Billy/Bully"son" stuff as an out. her other half is pure Heinzl ****** millie stuff. So if you know your dogs you can see what I've done by way of "scatter"

When I think of scatter bred dogs I think of dogs like this:ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [120013] :: BLKCHEF'S SHINE
7 gen is made up of. 7gen is 256 ancestors so the devil is in the details 

If like this dog ^^^ you have that has spots of an empty ped, that means his/her history is considered UNKNOWN BUT PURE (we like to hope this is honest)


----------



## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Wow Firehazzard! That is a lot for me to take in! Had to read it like 4 times!  I hope to one day be able to read them like you! Haha! 

Awesome stuff and really fascinating!


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks alot for the props.. You know Im still green, I always feel like I've missed something of forgot to cover this or that... learn to teach; teach to learn  You'll get it down its like a puzzle or connect the dots kinda especially when you've learned and memorized the blocks of most dogs. While studying horses long ago I stumbled around and done some math and figured a line that is made up of stud A is 37.5% and say he comes from stud B and is 75% stud B. That just shows that 37.5% stud A is primarily stud B even if on the pedigree of stud A there is there is only 6.25% stud B in the line or offspring of stud A by way of pedigree there is a good deal more blood from stud B than is being shown because stud A is 75% stud B. So if linebred and inbred your not crossing out but purifying that genetic make up or "blood" as its so often called and are not losing but purifying the blood behind stud B through stud A. Which is why Crenshaws Gator is considered a Jeep breeding in most cases even though he's Jeep and redboy do you see Crenshaws Gator in heavy Redboy breeding? Do you see Gator in heavy Jeep bred dogs? So they used gator to keep purifying Jeep. Thus the generalization you have jeep dog as Gator was something like 3 times jeep with Tab on top (redboy X) and double bred Jeep on bottom with an out using Honeybunch (jeeps mom) X Tudors Jeff stuff with the mayfield out while lining up trahan(old family). Which is why gator is red with a red nose when you look at all his building blocks he himself could easily be bred into an OFRN strain himself IMO but of all the routes that could be taken, it was used to purify that jeep into a strain of jeep dogs. 

I often joke that Redboy, Jeep, Buck dogs are SFRN Southern Family Red Nosed


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Reading this. I picture a freind of mine we have had this same talk about.my lil turtke buster red boy bitch. He runs simular dogs because he like them to be as close to nibblett colby dogs as you can fine today. but yes sir most peoe will not look at the big picture lile this because they only desire traits and that come.from.up close. Great read stan.


----------



## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Yes great read! It makes perfect sense!


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Was just treading back and found this one trying to find some more redboy stuff. I'm bored..anyone on here?


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

yup... Good ol redboy up:


----------



## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

wasn't carver rumored to have bred in a bit of bird dog?


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

That bird dog nonsense is like that Wilder and hound dog nonsense...

IN THIS COUNTRY... BULLDOG was bred into BIRDDOG and HOUND... This is how the red bone came to be among many OTHER hounds used for HOT game. Also if you look at a good portion of southern bird dogs you'll see they have more bulldog qualities than those from EUR or Canada. Thats enough to know.. ALSO... Back when, it didnt matter if your dog was small or large if he was proved to be game it got registered as an APBT. So if they did cross in contaminant then it had to be proven game or they wouldn't a used it. ..

The only way I'll believe that bird dog is in any carver or nigerino is if there was a double sired litter somewhere (accidents do happen I suppose).. Otherwise it doesnt matter if game dogs were being reproduced and still are. REMEMBER the DNA talk is really not that accurate outside of todays technology. Anything bulldog is of each other remember the DNA testing I showed. The fact that the [] test proved game and they only registered proven dog for the longest time, leads common sense away from believing the hype.

The bottom line is people don't know have of the genetic factors as they think they do. Bulldogs come in cowdog and bird dog (as far as coloration) and they're physical attributes vary a great deal as you well know. Assumption can be bitch. Carver rung some dogs, ... that we know. Tudors rung some dogs, that we know... Both hung em for the same reasons, to hide the recipe or a (stolen dog) I added the last because back then the world was smaller and shoulders rubbed, ELI went somewhere I always thought ARK, as well as ART.. Those dogs were re-papered and bred in JMO. I have had dogs stolen and they didnt go far and they got rung. Carver was quoted saying nothing bred like his Crenshaw dog, but he sure like the way bullyson pedigree looked. I believe those big name dogs hid out in big name yards or under their wing to be used  In that day and time, big, big name dogs like that aren't going to just disapear without a trace. Its those dogs that I focus on more than the bird dog BS. To me thats like a decoy.


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

tricky, clever, good or bad - whos the momma ,whos the dad.


----------



## ~StangChick~ (Jan 1, 2009)

Holy shiz I have a headache now..someday I will understand.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

i just saw this thread, 

can i read and understand my dog's pedigrees' 

yes i can. we've been using the same blood for over 30yrs now,

and it was monitored all the way back to coming off the ships from 
england and ireland,

but for 30yrs, we know for sure what dogs are what and how they're bred.

and its redboy, the good stuff.


----------



## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

Can anybody say how this dog is bred?
Click pic


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

well its an attempt to line some good Xs up. Mostly Decon/Redboy .. the diesel dog in the back is a bit scattered. Good lookin dog though. You can see the redboy clearly however also you can see that there is scatter shot of unknown origin.. cause its scattered. So the redboy is certain. Heres the ped..

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [407393] :: 'S BOBBIJABO


----------



## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> That bird dog nonsense is like that Wilder and hound dog nonsense...
> 
> IN THIS COUNTRY... BULLDOG was bred into BIRDDOG and HOUND... This is how the red bone came to be among many OTHER hounds used for HOT game. Also if you look at a good portion of southern bird dogs you'll see they have more bulldog qualities than those from EUR or Canada. Thats enough to know.. ALSO... Back when, it didnt matter if your dog was small or large if he was proved to be game it got registered as an APBT. So if they did cross in contaminant then it had to be proven game or they wouldn't a used it. ..
> 
> ...


i'm not against it if the dogs performs well then it good to go there's nothing to cry about haha.

I never got why people were always bent on peds for performance dogs


----------



## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> well its an attempt to line some good Xs up. Mostly Decon/Redboy .. the diesel dog in the back is a bit scattered. Good lookin dog though. You can see the redboy clearly however also you can see that there is scatter shot of unknown origin.. cause its scattered. So the redboy is certain. Heres the ped..
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [407393] :: 'S BOBBIJABO


I call it- a little of this and some of that pulled together as a family. 
Thats what I say when anyone asks what blood I run.
Otherwise it would sound like -Nigerino, Chinaman, Cowboy, Bandit, Boyles, Banjo, Redboy.
Which sounds silly and inaccurate if you ask me.
Too many people play the name game, which further adds to the confusion, on an already complexed subject. 
No wonder greenhorns have such a hard time of it.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Hahaha.. yes.. yes it would.. Similarly I call my Halls(boudreaux)/Garner spike,Sorrells/Lonzo Hammonds Heinzl... so they're ... Carver/Heinzl bulldogs essentially. Pulling them together into their source and then breed them into a family per say  People play the name game without understand genetics and source; not to mention the passing of genes in generations and the danger of outcrossing. 

In performance hounds it doesnt matter.. but yet.. it really really does. ONE PIECE gone from the equation and its not the same dog.


----------



## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

Many times people look at a ped and think SCATTERED, without knowing the breeder, the dogs and the goal behind the breedings. Lots of breeders breed for papers, the good breeders breed for TRAITS, line breeding/in breeding on desirable traits, not lining up paper thinking they should turn out cause the paper says so. It don't work like that! Never have and never will! To many people get caught up on what the pedigree says, and lose sight of why a bulldog is called a bulldog and bred because it is a bulldog, despite on how the paper reads!


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

VERY true.....

To Heinzl, Colby, and a few others like... Jeep himself was considered scatter bred, not outcrossed. That somes it up right there in what a pedigree should look like considering both top and bottom you can follow back to Colby or to Paddy and other irish dogs right off the boat. 

The reason the ped is important is cause its the road map if its honest the dog should breed true .. 

NOW Traits.. that can be done and done well to build a great hound but you'll have variables unseen or lost in origin of where such and such trait come from and how to breed it out. 

To you and me we thats common sense but to most its not. You summed it up pretty good, for me bloodline consistency and a "family" of dogs is important for KNOWN geno and phenotype all the way back. Otherwise .. its just good dogs bred to good dogs and in many times thats the scatter because just cause they come up alike doesnt make them carry or pass on alike genes without those variables. I like to know whats there and so I know how to breed it out.


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> VERY true.....
> 
> To Heinzl, Colby, and a few others like... Jeep himself was considered scatter bred, not outcrossed. That somes it up right there in what a pedigree should look like considering both top and bottom you can follow back to Colby or to Paddy and other irish dogs right off the boat.
> 
> ...


KNOWN genotype? Those traits that can't be seen directly like color, structure, etc. What gene is responsible for gameness? More like KNOWN results. LOL, you know I'm just busting your bells!!!:roll: Seriously though, I'm sure the most frustrating part in breeding has to be in not receiving the same attitude, gameness, heart, what have you, in litters that came from top notch parentage. Like doesn't always produce like. Still can be a mystery no matter what science has to say. But I fully understand what your saying in talking about the elimination process as far as variables are concerned. You do what you can do, correct?


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Simply put..papers are a tool for breeding..should not be used as a tool for selling. determination is virtually breeding backwords to pull togeher and solidify their program correctly. quite a bit of work there and that would be someone id likt to talk breeding with and get their experience from breeding this way. I'm sure phenotype varries a bit. but i did not go far enough back for pattern...i saw it right there going the other way.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

breeding backwards is just what I did with these carver/heinzl hounds.. 

Yes you do what you can, that being said.. Theres a way to breed out traits from the father or traits from the mother. For this you really have to know your dogs inside and out. Genotype can be known. Heinzl, and JP were both commented by Tudors in the ability to pick a game pup right outta the litter. Also many time people produce gr ch and never repeat the breeding :hammer: then they do and half step their own work for various reasons and don't get the same dog they got the first time around. 

I can tell which dogs I produce are straight game those who are rough curs, and those that are stellar dogs under the right ownership  I always thought everyone knew this much about the dogs they produce. I field test the dogs as they come of age and 8 of 10 times Im correct. In my mind family breeders and those who've produced ch and gr ch would/should know exactly what they have by the time they're 8wks, in a family there is consistency upstairs and in the bones. 

Remember, people didn't know until after 2000 basically the genetic factors. Mammals inherit the organs from their mother 5 of 6 times. The Bones from father 5 of 6 times.. if you know your dogs you know your pups. The remaining 1 would be a perfect mesh of the parents or be opposite and have mothers bones, and fathers organs. You can do the math at 6 of 10 times organs from mother, and bones from the father, and then 2 and 2 its easier to understand that way. So if you know your dogs, then you know your dogs.  The reason mental illness is automatically associated with the mother is because of this 5 in 6 times ratio of inheritance.  only 1 of 6 would it come from the father.


----------



## pimpidypimp (Dec 30, 2008)

mccoypitbulls said:


> Simply put..papers are a tool for breeding..should not be used as a tool for selling. determination is virtually breeding backwords to pull togeher and solidify their program correctly. quite a bit of work there and that would be someone id likt to talk breeding with and get their experience from breeding this way. I'm sure phenotype varries a bit. but i did not go far enough back for pattern...i saw it right there going the other way.


Thanks for the interest Mcoypitbulls, here is my Determination Kennels facebook page...... https://www.facebook.com/justice.james.9828

In the album males there will be a link to their pedigree when you click on a pic
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...073741830.100006247505592&type=1&l=18923693d1
Same with the album Females 
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...073741829.100006247505592&type=1&l=a8d7c32f23

This is my attempt to create a family from two out standing cross bred individuals - 'S DIESEL and 'S BRINDLE BITCH everything on my yard comes down from one mating of these two. When all 32 ancestors in 4 generations pass through my hands, I will consider it an established signature line. Right now it's just a line in the making.


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Cool.ill look into when i [email protected] now.but good to meet u.and good work. chat more later on.


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

And my long lost brother switched at birth..fh...can't spread rep..rrr


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> breeding backwards is just what I did with these carver/heinzl hounds..
> 
> Yes you do what you can, that being said.. Theres a way to breed out traits from the father or traits from the mother. For this you really have to know your dogs inside and out. Genotype can be known. Heinzl, and JP were both commented by Tudors in the ability to pick a game pup right outta the litter. Also many time people produce gr ch and never repeat the breeding :hammer: then they do and half step their own work for various reasons and don't get the same dog they got the first time around.
> 
> ...


I certainly believe that there's a "science" to having a keen eye in picking out a stellar pup...not sure how purely scientific it actually is due to the use of a phenotypical measurement, such as one's eye, and an assumption made. When behaviors like "gameness" or "intelligence" etc. can be examined in genealogical terms under a microscope and described "dominantly/recessively" via the punnet square then I will fully understand, I think LOL, what breeders are stating when they claim to have weeded out these genotypical traits...good from bad. Otherwise I think breeding is as it has always been...best to best, experiences from past breedings, and visual results of course. I'm not saying that everyone basically still breeds for looks, or phenotypically (structure, color, bone, etc.) because I realize that behaviors can be spotted, but I will say that it appears that breeding genotypically is still a bit unscientific...for now at least!!! IDK, perhaps DNA scientists have mapped out these genes and traits, but I think it is beyond the scope of many a breeder who doesn't have the keys to an MIT laboratory that is LOL. 
I really am not trying to be difficult with you Stan and I suppose I could word it differently. I'll just say I remember the interview with Boudreaux where he states that there's only one Ace in a hundred dogs, the rest are just mediocre. He also said that the aggravating thing about breeding is when you know you have something really good, but it hardly ever reproduces itself. His experience and patience are his "science" it seems...and it is still a gamble.


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Could not see the face book ones because I do not have one.I did see those two main dogs in the ped that posted though. I did look back. Nice peds, with good pics also. I like the look of of your dogs from start to now. You are doing a very nice job. The dogs look very consistent. How were all the litters as far as the variety? 
you can shoot me a pm if if you'd like.

Good little talk everyone and good points made.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

AND THAT 1 IN A 100 COMMENT, WAS COMIUNG FROM FLOYD B.

now if his percentage is only that, what do you think someone just starting out trying to be a breeder, what would their percentage be?

i'm not talking about about getting lucky,
floyd has put out thousands of dogs, so if anyone should know it would be him.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Like I said, genetic knowledge and passing of traits is more well known today than yesterday... When Heinzl was alive, you could bet you'd get game from him most of the time, how did he know? Boudreaux has done excellent job and is with Hammonds, patrick, and a few others under Heinzl, for certain knows his dogs by now, thus his statement. For many like Boudreaux, Hammonds, Patrick etc .. the old additive they don't breed true comes to mind. HOWEVER.. Knowing that one individual represents 20K ancestors.. Well ... that says they do breed true, ya just have to know who and what represents what. There are some outs that boudreaux used that throw off the consistency and there is a good amount that is pretty locked in much like Colby. From what I can tell Boudreaux only is dominant among eli type dogs taken into something like loposay/colby got you jeep. WHO was considered scatter bred by Heinzl, Colby, and others... Personally I believe he shouldve been used as an out exculsively for Boudreaux or COlby dogs of that time. JMO.. If Boudreaux had acces to the scientific knowledge of DNA and heritage we have today..... Im sure you'd see ALOT more gr ch among the crowd already there. They didnt know the inheritance factor and judged everything at surface level. All of em picked dogs according to color even though we as bulldog breeders are supposed to pick color last. Its documented they like black, red, or whatever.. so thats how they picked.. :hammer: of course its not gonna breed true when that comes into play. Oh the dogs they could turn out if todays knowledge was pre 76. I sure dont believe they picked on whats upstairs as often as we'd like to think. Even Lightener dropped his world class OF red dogs for the more irish bred paddy stuff that was smaller and often BLACK, and lost against all his old stuff, but was still his favorites. When he had it best from the get go. They all have picked what they like better over game. Thus inconsistency.


----------



## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Firehazard said:


> Like I said, genetic knowledge and passing of traits is more well known today than yesterday... When Heinzl was alive, you could bet you'd get game from him most of the time, how did he know? Boudreaux has done excellent job and is with Hammonds, patrick, and a few others under Heinzl, for certain knows his dogs by now, thus his statement. For many like Boudreaux, Hammonds, Patrick etc .. the old additive they don't breed true comes to mind. HOWEVER.. Knowing that one individual represents 20K ancestors.. Well ... that says they do breed true, ya just have to know who and what represents what. There are some outs that boudreaux used that throw off the consistency and there is a good amount that is pretty locked in much like Colby. From what I can tell Boudreaux only is dominant among eli type dogs taken into something like loposay/colby got you jeep. WHO was considered scatter bred by Heinzl, Colby, and others... Personally I believe he shouldve been used as an out exculsively for Boudreaux or COlby dogs of that time. JMO.. If Boudreaux had acces to the scientific knowledge of DNA and heritage we have today..... Im sure you'd see ALOT more gr ch among the crowd already there. They didnt know the inheritance factor and judged everything at surface level. All of em picked dogs according to color even though we as bulldog breeders are supposed to pick color last. Its documented they like black, red, or whatever.. so thats how they picked.. :hammer: of course its not gonna breed true when that comes into play. Oh the dogs they could turn out if todays knowledge was pre 76. I sure dont believe they picked on whats upstairs as often as we'd like to think. Even Lightener dropped his world class OF red dogs for the more irish bred paddy stuff that was smaller and often BLACK, and lost against all his old stuff, but was still his favorites. When he had it best from the get go. They all have picked what they like better over game. Thus inconsistency.


Do you enjoy taking the intellect belt to everyones ass? Lol.


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Like I said, genetic knowledge and passing of traits is more well known today than yesterday... When Heinzl was alive, you could bet you'd get game from him most of the time, how did he know? Boudreaux has done excellent job and is with Hammonds, patrick, and a few others under Heinzl, for certain knows his dogs by now, thus his statement. For many like Boudreaux, Hammonds, Patrick etc .. the old additive they don't breed true comes to mind. HOWEVER.. Knowing that one individual represents 20K ancestors.. Well ... that says they do breed true, ya just have to know who and what represents what. There are some outs that boudreaux used that throw off the consistency and there is a good amount that is pretty locked in much like Colby. From what I can tell Boudreaux only is dominant among eli type dogs taken into something like loposay/colby got you jeep. WHO was considered scatter bred by Heinzl, Colby, and others... Personally I believe he shouldve been used as an out exculsively for Boudreaux or COlby dogs of that time. JMO.. If Boudreaux had acces to the scientific knowledge of DNA and heritage we have today..... Im sure you'd see ALOT more gr ch among the crowd already there. They didnt know the inheritance factor and judged everything at surface level. All of em picked dogs according to color even though we as bulldog breeders are supposed to pick color last. Its documented they like black, red, or whatever.. so thats how they picked.. :hammer: of course its not gonna breed true when that comes into play. Oh the dogs they could turn out if todays knowledge was pre 76. I sure dont believe they picked on whats upstairs as often as we'd like to think. Even Lightener dropped his world class OF red dogs for the more irish bred paddy stuff that was smaller and often BLACK, and lost against all his old stuff, but was still his favorites. When he had it best from the get go. They all have picked what they like better over game. Thus inconsistency.


I have to agree with you Stan, but I also wouldn't short change the old timers either. They did lay the foundation in which to build upon....and produced the bulldogs that we all wish we had! More statistics and data to analyze would most assuredly yield better results, no doubt. I still believe though that the breeding techniques haven't changed that much...experience and trial and error being the rule of thumb. Genotypically, I think there's much more room for improvement in the research department...the dead horse I keep beating LOL!! I want to see you breeders in lab coats with specimen bottles in hand HA HA!!:thumbsup:


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

I guess I'll jump in with some observations , these may offend some folks but hopefully not. And yes I will be talking " around" certain facets.

There is *no* knowing what a dog is or will be as a pup , no definitive assessment can be made until after the given pup comes of age.

A good point was made as regards stacking the ancestors that may well be off the pedigree i.e. meaning more than six generations back , doing so through good dogs and good breeders steps up your chances , however that's not enough , if the dogs in front of those are untested and unevaluated from that point to the front as regards both ability and production then the effort to stack up all those superlative ancestors in the back of the pedigree turns it all into a crap shoot again.

However if you attempt to stack the pedigree from those back lines forward with dogs that have proven themselves worthy in the terms of ability or production capability or prefereably *both* you will maximise your chances of producing something worth feeding.

I'll utilise as an example Gr.Ch Buck , nobody with any degree of sense will argue that he wasn't both a game dog with ability AND a great producer.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [428] :: S.T.P.'S BUCK (7XW)

Note the consecutive r.o.m.s ( and unofficial p.o.rs) stacked up and leading to good to great dogs that themselves produced , also note Bucks offspring list and the amount of great dogs he produced , and don't fail to note the amount of r.o.m. and p.o.r. he produced , then take a look at how that continued on downstream from THERE.

And quite frankly speaking , freaky ability is *NO* gaurauntee of production , since Going Light Barney was brought up recently in another thread , y'all will note the lack of his appearance in more modern pedigrees on anything more than a very , very rare basis.

Why?

Because he never produced anything worth keeping.

And lastly we get to the touchy subject , gameness is the hallmark of the breed............HOWEVER...........out in todays fast lane it's *NOT* enough , a deadgame dog that has no ability and whom is brought into todays fast lane will almost inevitably just end up *dead* , and thus will the community be denied the potential access to that facet of the specific dog , such a dogs value lies in it's breeding potential when bred to specimens with ability to add bottom to the offspring.

It's one hell of a lot easier to put mouth back in than it is to recapture gameness.

Also quite frankly , there is good reason behind the term "battle cross" , the melding of two or even three bloodlines that in the end Lead back to the same base stock ( example Heinzl , Carver............Tudor) can produce superlative animals from the performance standpoint.

Oh and as an aside and pertinent to the "paperhanging/false pedigree thread" and Frisco..........

This bitch was mine , she was definitely off Frisco himself , and she was red.........and she produced some pretty decent dogs....

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [201773] :: *LEVERAGE**

Especially when bred to this dog of mine.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [201774] :: K&F'S RAZZMATAZZ*


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

See.. Ol dog,, ... thats the good sense I figure goes without being said, it was wrong of me to assume, as well St Francis... I love the old timers and knockin them .. Im not.. 

Buck was also given away practically as a pet and we all know Patrick has two peds on Buck out there. .. Dangit, my ears are ringin... LOL so you make valid points however ya'll old timers who have had lets call it luck over skill at pickin out good ones  I prefer to say ya'll got skill. Also my question on Heinzl goes back to an unsaid way of knowing what you got  A few of the ol timers knew/know how to pick em, but all of em also pick favorites over what they knew/know to be game. They've all made that decision once or twice and once your deviate.. well... you deviated. So yes we're both right, and we're both wrong.. it would be more on honesty of stock via ped and the breeder insight to his own stock. I don't believe every pup will be an ace, thats not saying other pups couldnt go 2 or so before getting paddled as adults. Im saying the math is correct, of course if you breed two dogs and get 4 gr ch you wanna try that again, .. but then you may only get one or two. IT COULD be the management change in test that changed the variable outcome or it could be part of that 20,000K individuals offering DNA for a single individual which means.. keep a good eye on em keep one or two maybe for genetic purposes, and do the same breeding again. Because its just like dice, if you hold them just right and placed right in your hand you can roll the same stuff over and over 7/11 .. if not.. CRAPS.. so its all about placement and technique as much as essence of the roller. The same thing here.. its luck if ya dont know, if ya do know.. its science  So if they repeat the same exact thing they did the first breeding even down to the test.. there ya go. (The Reverend.. look at his work of back when to the most current of his work not what others did with his stock cause they dont know what to do with it otherwise game heinzl be all over the damn place... (even though it kinda is behind Many big name sub strains of today  Alot of em got all them good dogs back when and it up'd their test stock then they had hard rollers that would cur about anything before a great one come along. SO 3-4 Ch or gr ch in a litter was reduced to 1  You know why Heinzl used Colby, Lightner, and such... it was genuine dogs to pedigree.. He had this stuff down. You GOTTA know whats in front of you to know how to bring out the best and sterilize the worse from your stock. 

Just me..


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Stan, your loyalty to the old school thought has always been apparent...didn't mean to imply you were knocking them....furthest thing from my mind. 

OldDog, the importance of the entirety of the ped, front door to back door, makes sense to me...you echo what my breeder has always said


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

hate to tell you old dog, 
i was with all those people in that 2nd dogs ped. last weekend, 
at tg's house.

and while frisco was alive he never threw a red dog. it was only after he was rip.

but at that time tg had 2 good redboy dogs, look up garners' HAP' 

and tell me if you see ONE breeding that he made with him in his blood.

if he wasnt going to cross it in why did he even get him.

he certainly didnt need him, and tg is a multi-millionaire,

he could have any dog he wants.

but there will always be talk. thats what good about the dogs,

it keeps us talkin dogs........................

if you want to know about frisco, fb knows the truth just like some of us others.

i forgot to mention this also, one of my family collected a forfeit on 'gr ch buck'

we all knew about one another, but at the time didnt know who, forfeit was posted
by both sides, when they found out who was coming and who we were bringin
they just told the holder to give up the gold because they aint showin up

hows that for some history........................


----------



## Nick_C. (Jul 1, 2013)

My dog has no ped, But even if she did I have NO idea how to read peds lol.. Think I need to start lookin into it. Is there any threads on herer for newbs when it comes to reading peds?? I seen a few and my first thought was WAHHHHHHHHH Lol so much confusion and listings lol.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

its a puzzle.. pedigree shows relations and percentage of each dog in the pedigree.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

surfer said:


> hate to tell you old dog,
> i was with all those people in that 2nd dogs ped. last weekend,
> at tg's house.
> 
> ...


 We're gonna have to disagree on that one insofar as the red dogs go , VR and some other folks had some pretty fair ones off Frisco that were red out west. Though we are in agreement about certain things as regards Frisco I don't think all those folks are telling fibs.

Hap was pretty well known , you'll know who had him , I knew a guy was close to FB for a minute or two there , as far as FB.......i don't know that I'd trust him much the way things turned out. Hap put some good dogs on the ground , out of Deva and the Miss Zorro bitch among others. And then when bredd to Flossie Two ( doubled up on Jeep) he produced Red Venom who went p.o.r.

Do I think Hap was bred into it and the stuff got papered another way? You won't get any arguement from me on that one. And yeah I think TG got kind of obsessed with Frisco and turning him into the r.o.m. of all r.o.m.s , wanted to catch up to Jeep in that regard.

Here's one we could bandy about , why do you suppose he didn't do more with the Spike stuff than he did , yeah we all know what he has said but why do you suppose?


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

invested the other way... and more of a fan of the other.. or the infamous just couldn't get em to find the right click (breed true) ... 

one and/or all the above.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> its a puzzle.. pedigree shows relations and percentage of each dog in the pedigree.


 Sure , but that only serves a function if the pedigree is accurate , and insofar as it goes there is some degree of controversy over a hell of a lot of pedigrees , some of 'em pretty famous and pretty pivotal within the dogs.eli jr. , comes to mind on that one , then there are others including F. hisself that said that Eli was actually the sire of Zebo after he was stolen from J.B.

All these stories have just become lore , they're good for kicking around and discussing but who actually knows...........though there is ( as Surfer has pointed out) a lot of smoking embers where Frisco is concerned.

Another one that comes to mind is the Ch. Ninja dog , no way in hell that dog was off Jeep.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> invested the other way... and more of a fan of the other.. or the infamous just couldn't get em to find the right click (breed true) ...
> 
> one and/or all the above.


 Yeah well others could , Rancherita built a dynasty off the Spike blood. So did the BMWs for that matter.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

hahahaha.. yeh for sure. ...


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> That bird dog nonsense is like that Wilder and hound dog nonsense....


I almost missed this post. 
First off I'm surprise you wrote this because you didn't know Jake or been to his yard or owned dogs directly from him.

"Nonsense"?
How so?
Jake admitted to doing so to many dogmen!
There was a dogman in AR. who wanted some dogs for his cattle ranch but the dogs had to have grit and won't hurt his stock.
He went to Jake and bought some of the dogs Jake had produced from the Red Bone/Geronimo II (II born 1971) breeding.
This is how this well known dogman got into Pit Dogs.
His name was Doyle Reddick the owner of Ch. Peterbuilt and Gr. Ch. Herman.

Off the top of my head there are still others alive today who can contest to the fact it was done, Broadway Jack of SDJ, P. Combs of Xenna OH. breeder of Ch. Lively (P & P Kennels), Johnnie Walker Red 4xw (Mountain Man's), owner of Apache's Rusty Jake (Red Ty's brother)....
Oh lets not forget Tom Brown---------


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Your right I didn't know Jake, I know genetics well enough and know old timers who vouged that redbones are part OFRN and part Bloodhound .. that is their DNA ... I think it got understood backwards, My grampa had a wilder dog he was also the one who showed me the truth behind redbone breeding. (For instance when you drop food its the 30 second rule, but someone heard it as 3 second rule and thats what is known widely, and it is wrong) The redbone **** hound is a bulldog X, and I've seen many good ones in OKLA when I was dead set and kennel blind only for JRB (early stuff). I breed stock dogs and there was no reason to cross it over. Bulldogs are natural stock dogs.

I didnt say he never did it, I basically said his stock that made the grade was not hound dog crossed, if it did get tested prove game in the [] then thats all that matters, and wouldve been bred game after that, however I find it unlikely. Just because some dog man produces a batch of curdogs for a hunter or rancher doesnt mean the WHOLE strain by the dog man is bred with the curs produced for a particular venture. I've seen many a manipulations with the bulldog genes and the hound was born from bulldog genes of the old day before you , me , jake, and this country.. The practice continued here and people still make the X's. Bulldogs can throw very hound like dogs and very terrier like dogs, a dog that looks hound doesnt mean squat. SO its easy for people to assume that wilder had hound in all his stock. If it did it wouldn't breed the way it does. Stabber from clouse down from big boy is what Johnie walker looked obscure, LOL look at Clouses big boy, thats some crazy genetics that were locked in and guaranteed passed down. IF Stabber or Big boy was all red on red many folks would swear they were hound. When really he is a perfect Bull and Terrier. I don't know the folks, I know the dogs, I know how traits are harbored and passed on. LIke I said, the X was unnecessary unless they wanted em for hunting which is where the cross still excels. Also it just seems unlikely for the majority of the stock. I did have a male dog that was Wilders, CH Fred T and BUllshit he was a real solid dog.

I don't believe the OFRN strain is tainted with hound as much as some would like to believe... I know the redbone is partially OFRN however, and it was Arkansas boys Alabama boys Texas boys Tennessee Boys and Okie Boys who really utilized the redbone the most, and Yes I had a redbone as a young lad.


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

Well since you didn't own this breed when it took place, isn't it a little hard for you dispute what we all have seen with our own eyes? Things told directly to us by the person who did it?

Why before Wilder there never was widows peak in OFRN dogs even from Hemphill who I owned dogs directly down from?
Maybe you need to join the forum of the OFRNR where they show the proof of other breeds having widows peak, like Red Bone Hounds.

In fact why isn't there any pictures in the hundreds of books and magazines I have, there is no widow peak or smut marked dogs from the 1800's to clear up into 1960's and 70's?
Of any color of this breed...
Why doesn't any other 'Bulldog type" breed have widows peak or smut markings?

It is very common and well known marking in hounds.
And it is a well known fact hounds were bred into a lot of bulldog breeds.
Even more so today, everybody thinks they can do something new and improved.

$1,000 says you can not find an OFRN breeder before Wilder who had widows peak in their dogs and a line that produced it.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

i wouldnt own a scatterbred dog, to me thats just a couple of idiots
putting 2 dogs together to make puppies.

i have ZERO use for those dogs or people,

for 16 cent walmart can take care of that situation,

its called a 22cal bullet, or if you aint got the heart, take it to the vet for some 
'pink juice'

and yes i can trace everyone of mine back at least 10 generations or more.

but once you get to maurice carver, tudor, or colby then you have to trust them,

and we all know about mc, and et was a crook also


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Well Im sure it happend to produce a fella some curs or good bay hounds... anything else is hear say. ..

The marking you talking about is what would happen with many of the dogs variations of red which is a mutation of black. Braddock was he red? How many others were NOT red but black? When a gene is singled out and kept and capitalized on especially if it trumps others depending on the markers alleles loci and which trumps which. Colbys havent produced a black and tan since they culled the red nose from their program. There's a coincidence there  .. now if the dog won in the [] back when and produced dogs that did.. don't think it would matter much becuase the [] breeds bulldogs all around the world it come back to bulldogs. You know that, breeding for function and purposes creates the dog. This phenotype and genotype of canine has been around for almost as long as sled dogs and F1 working wolf dogs, man it seems has kept fighting and catch dogs around for a long time, and they all look primarily the same. Bred for function.

Anyway.. I've never seen a OFRN that looked like a redbone.. It would take MANY MANY YEARs to rid of those ears alone... I have however seen OFRN hound crosses for bays and I had a redbone as a youngster, my uncle has one now. Well Lightner red dogs were monsters he didn't like how big they were. So the size of Wilder or Hemphill stock doesn't surprise me.. My Hammonds/Heinzl bitch whos 40lb bred to 35lbs Halls/Hammonds/heinzl/snootysorrell male produced a 22lbs female. I used to see monsters come from JRB litters that were near 80lbs and some that on the chain were. My uncles redbone is 80lbs I think he could lose some weight but he runs all day at the lake so he's just solid according to him.. LOL Good dogs. I've manipulated the bulldog gene in so many ways 110lbs to 20lbs learning all I could before I made this jump. I just don't see hound prevalent in the dogs. I notice those that do look like hounds, I like those kind as much as I do the tiny bulldogs. As was said I'll have to trust my Carver/Heinzl bulldogs are honest to their ped, it worked to the math before I even paired the dogs and it worked when paired. I have my 22lbs female bulldogs, now I just have to find the right male small enough for them.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Buliwyf said:


> I almost missed this post.
> First off I'm surprise you wrote this because you didn't know Jake or been to his yard or owned dogs directly from him.
> 
> )


 I've heard about enough of this , Jake Wilder never stepped across the wall to cull a dog in his life. He rode the coat-tails of Hemphill and certain others , simple as that , and now decades and decades laterwe've got folks STILL riding Wilder's nuts as if he was something more than just a puppypeddler for his times.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Buliwyf said:


> Why before Wilder there never was widows peak in OFRN dogs even from Hemphill who I owned dogs directly down from?
> Maybe you need to join the forum of the OFRNR where they show the proof of other breeds having widows peak, like Red Bone Hounds.
> 
> I
> ...


 Well known fact my ass , more like ***well known and oft repeated freaking MYTH****........

And I kinda doubt that you really want to get into an extended discussion on the Redbones with me , or for that matter the ' Ticked" hounds that cmae out red-ticked.

Care to address the Hemphill-McCoy connection , I mean since y'all are old enough to have had dogs directly from Hemphill 'n all that , makes ya waht? An octogenerian does it?

Quit singing that Wilder/Hemphill/Wallace mantra , you're freaking damned well blind if ya can't see the men and dogs BEHIND those folks , without old Bourgeous and that stock to draw form , without Harvey and Owens and many others i could name Hemphill wouldn't have had what he had. And that goes back to the Swamps , goes to Shipley and Corcoran , goes right to Colo Springs and Lightner. etc.etc.etc.

keeeeerrrrriiist , Wilder , Wilder Wilder , Hemphill , Hemphill Hemphill like it's some sorta perverse canine version of the Lords Prayer........


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Buliwyf said:


> I almost missed this post.
> First off I'm surprise you wrote this because you didn't know Jake or been to his yard or owned dogs directly from him.
> 
> "Nonsense"?
> ...


Did yall know the Wilders ran the largest cattle operations in the country of their times? One of their Farms was near here - on the back way to Mo. They have since flooded the valley out and now it is a natural refuge for wildlife. Interesting.

And a red heeler is a cattle dog, or a catahoolie -- not a **** hound cross!! but thed be a hell of a bird dog!!lol


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

smut dogs aint nothin new - ask the folks from over seas. I have. Ironhead comes to mind, as always.
I have searched, talked to quite a few folks about this.
I have "my opinion" and the next man can have his also.
I say dilute tri(black and tan) and that is where my research has brought me.I see this in buckskin dogs also. The hound dog ears are nothing new either. I say geneological throwbacks. Lots of them out there in the dog world.
Is my logical opinion right, wrong, - it dont matter to me. That is my conclusion and it makes sence to me.
There is really no proof of the **** hound thing either, besides what folks said to folks.
I have access to the actual article that has the misleading info about coonhounds in it. The article is available to review.

Now - i raised cattle as a youngin, grandpa did, was assosiated with cattle folk from across the country.
look that up - probably haf ta go to the bar that my grandpa took his grand champion bull into by lead to have a beer . That'd be a start!! Quit sending federal "cencus" folks to figur out family history because its NOT online. We are the McCoys - hill billys from way back..


fish on!!!! 

im not trying to be disrespectful to anyone. We are all chattin like men, and giving our best info to talk about. I concider talking with you all on my birthday a honor. The moon and stars align once or twice in my life. I was lookin at my number tag from the NAT's show. I have an IOU from RS for 4 bucks. If i had known, id have not exchanged the tag to get the 4 bucks. I had to pay the 4 bucks to the engineer drivin the train to get me back. 

Look up Dixon Mounds, and Mesa Verde. 
I did not move to colo rojo for NO reason when i was 2 it was strictly cultural enhancement. Well now im back in Illini terratory, with twisted outlook. Iv got family ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. My mother graduated highschool im Brazil. Right by where Pele use to play. look that stuff up.


Can we please remain to talk like adults and share our stories without bias views/opinions/facts ?


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I think when my head stops spinning I will reread all of this and then read it all again.

I love reading a thread and not being able to add to it for the pure fact that I am learning more than I can add. Thanks for sharing knowledge to those of us who are green about the history told by the peds.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

for those who think all dogs with the widow's peak are mixed, they obviusly havent researched or studied color genetics. If they are going to say all all widow's peak/sable/smutt dogs are mixed because of their color/pattern alone then they have to throw out buckskins and black/tan dogs as well. According to color genetics buckskin is "clear" sable. Meaning that its there but it doesn't come out. I could go on and on about this but if you don't want to sit down and actually open your mind to scientific facts, then we will get no where. 
Sure Wilder could have made a couple of hound mixes for someone but does that mean ALL dogs who have this coat pattern are mutts?


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I can't not pretend to know too much about breeding And maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't a red dog with a dark face be similar to a widows peak dog? If you're discounting a smut dog, would that not also include a seal dog or a blue dog?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Blue dogs are a whole different story to get into  blue can happen but back in the day they were culled. There are all sorts of different opinions on why some think a blue American Pitbull Terrier is ok and should not be looked down on, and others feel they should be culled, that they are cold and they are AmStaff mixed in, etc. I personally feel there was a reason the old dog men culled the blue dogs. Since the APBT is not a dog that was bred for color, one would think that blue should be allowed and not discriminated against. However, like I said they culled them for a reason, whatever that was. I am thinking it was because they might have been tested just like any other color but time after time the blue dogs weren't game enough, they had skin issues, were just cold, or something along those lines. I haven't really dug deep into that but those have been my thoughts on the topic of blue dogs. 
No a red dog with a black face is a red with black mask and isn't the same thing. The dog in my avatar has a widow's peak. HOWEVER, many of these fawn/ buckskin dogs actually are born with a faint sable pattern that "fades" as they grow. And by the time they are a couple months old they are just buckskin or fawn dogs. Though gentically they are "clear sables"

Smut is another term for the sable pattern. Same thing.

Seal is a black dog that has a red tint to its coat when the light hits it, sometimes they look almost chocolate.


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

put me in Coach!! lol - u have a wonderful outlook on things.
blu goes waaaaay better with merle - its a sheperd thang!


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

mccoypitbulls said:


> put me in Coach!! lol - u have a wonderful outlook on things.
> blu goes waaaaay better with merle - its a sheperd thang!


Hahaha... I don't trust Merle and blue eyes dogs because of ankle nipping border collies and ausie shepherds.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Blue dogs are a whole different story to get into  blue can happen but back in the day they were culled. There are all sorts of different opinions on why some think a blue American Pitbull Terrier is ok and should not be looked down on, and others feel they should be culled, that they are cold and they are AmStaff mixed in, etc. I personally feel there was a reason the old dog men culled the blue dogs. Since the APBT is not a dog that was bred for color, one would think that blue should be allowed and not discriminated against. However, like I said they culled them for a reason, whatever that was. I am thinking it was because they might have been tested just like any other color but time after time the blue dogs weren't game enough, they had skin issues, were just cold, or something along those lines. I haven't really dug deep into that but those have been my thoughts on the topic of blue dogs.
> No a red dog with a black face is a red with black mask and isn't the same thing. The dog in my avatar has a widow's peak. HOWEVER, many of these fawn/ buckskin dogs actually are born with a faint sable pattern that "fades" as they grow. And by the time they are a couple months old they are just buckskin or fawn dogs. Though gentically they are "clear sables"
> 
> Smut is another term for the sable pattern. Same thing.
> ...


I had wondered why there were never pictures of a blue champ.

I'm feeling a little dense though. What is the difference between a sable dog and a dog with widows?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Typically dogs with a sable pattern have a widow's peak...not always but many times.


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Katey said:


> Hahaha... I don't trust Merle and blue eyes dogs because of ankle nipping border collies and ausie shepherds.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


cant forget the Borders!! theys got a purpose!! and they will leta know it too!!


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

back in the day i had a 2x'er that was as blue as what you would call blue, a cotton's bullet/ zebo/big ben cross, he was hot as a firecracker, had a sister that looked just like him,

and she was 'stone cold' 

so back then you really could go by color, but you can nowadays.


----------



## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Katey said:


> Hahaha... I don't trust Merle and blue eyes dogs because of ankle nipping border collies and ausie shepherds.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh you mean like this?










I don't know what she is for sure, but she's quite effective at herding bulldogs.


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Carriana said:


> Oh you mean like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, she looks like she has some herding dog in her. That picture is hilarious. She looks so surprised.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Typically dogs with a sable pattern have a widow's peak...not always but many times.


Do you know what causes, or where a sable pattern comes from? Is it similar gene wise to a brindle?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ASPCA << JK LOL APASA and a I had a good convo... pertaining to genetics and color, that touches on this. Have to find the convo.....


----------



## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Yeah there is a thread about this that FireHazard and APASA address this some. Maybe FH will post the link if he finds it  but no brindle and sable are not the same gene. The closest gene to sable is the black/tan I believe.


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Well Im sure it happend to produce a fella some curs or good bay hounds... anything else is hear say. ..
> 
> The marking you talking about is what would happen with many of the dogs variations of red which is a mutation of black. Braddock was he red? How many others were NOT red but black? When a gene is singled out and kept and capitalized on especially if it trumps others depending on the markers alleles loci and which trumps which. Colbys havent produced a black and tan since they culled the red nose from their program. There's a coincidence there  .. now if the dog won in the [] back when and produced dogs that did.. don't think it would matter much becuase the [] breeds bulldogs all around the world it come back to bulldogs. You know that, breeding for function and purposes creates the dog. This phenotype and genotype of canine has been around for almost as long as sled dogs and F1 working wolf dogs, man it seems has kept fighting and catch dogs around for a long time, and they all look primarily the same. Bred for function.
> 
> Anyway.. I've never seen a OFRN that looked like a redbone.. It would take MANY MANY YEARs to rid of those ears alone... I have however seen OFRN hound crosses for bays and I had a redbone as a youngster, my uncle has one now. Well Lightner red dogs were monsters he didn't like how big they were. So the size of Wilder or Hemphill stock doesn't surprise me.. My Hammonds/Heinzl bitch whos 40lb bred to 35lbs Halls/Hammonds/heinzl/snootysorrell male produced a 22lbs female. I used to see monsters come from JRB litters that were near 80lbs and some that on the chain were. My uncles redbone is 80lbs I think he could lose some weight but he runs all day at the lake so he's just solid according to him.. LOL Good dogs. I've manipulated the bulldog gene in so many ways 110lbs to 20lbs learning all I could before I made this jump. I just don't see hound prevalent in the dogs. I notice those that do look like hounds, I like those kind as much as I do the tiny bulldogs. As was said I'll have to trust my Carver/Heinzl bulldogs are honest to their ped, it worked to the math before I even paired the dogs and it worked when paired. I have my 22lbs female bulldogs, now I just have to find the right male small enough for them.


Theory, they are mutation of black only because of lack of light. Once light is introduced the color illuminates.
Braddock, Corvino's? No he was not black.
At least not in the many pictures I got from Joe, he isn't in black & white pictures.
How many other of what dogs? Are you assuming Braddock was black?
ROTFL they never culled the recessive red nose gene out from Galtie.
Only way is to rid the line that carries him.

Black & Tan has nothing to do with red. Come on, you know better then try to go there that BS. lol
Yes you bred what won. That is why for 100 years is been wrote "Gamest ever bred."
BTW are you experienced in this manner of breeding?
Myself, all I can say is, what is current is, everything is directly from champion stock. Are you making the same claim for your experience of knowledge or is it just that was read in a book?

Now if you want to post ambiguously ok but it was wrote "Red Bone Cross".
Maybe your lack of experience in viewing other bloodlines or mass of them, you haven't, but I have and every time I see widows peak, you can see it looks more like Red Bone markings then ApBT. Google the breed Red Bone Hounds.
Why do you think so many from that bloodline has cropped ears?
Hold on, that Stratton's story about Lightner size of dogs. 
Not according to Bill were they like that.
Stratton also wrote Hemphill & McCoy went to LA. and got the last of the 7 Lightner dogs. Well Williams proved that story wasn't true.......
BTW I keep reading you posting George's handle. Did you think he had the line of dogs for many years? Because he didn't. I remember seeing his foundation stock at Mary's house and before that at Earl Adam's place and before that at Clarence Yate's house.
Now tell me what sixe did you think those dogs started out at?


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

OldDog said:


> I've heard about enough of this , Jake Wilder never stepped across the wall to cull a dog in his life. He rode the coat-tails of Hemphill and certain others , simple as that , and now decades and decades laterwe've got folks STILL riding Wilder's nuts as if he was something more than just a puppypeddler for his times.


Has any one wrote anything different? Geronimo didn't come from Hemphill, he came from Cold Country Kennels.
I know Jake didn't, but now the rest of us? ..............
BTW my stock from Hemphill bloodline, wasn't bred by Jake. ;->


----------



## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Yeah there is a thread about this that FireHazard and APASA address this some. Maybe FH will post the link if he finds it  but no brindle and sable are not the same gene. The closest gene to sable is the black/tan I believe.


Correct, brindling is found on the K allele, sable and tan points are on the A allele.


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

OldDog said:


> Well known fact my ass , more like ***well known and oft repeated freaking MYTH****........
> 
> And I kinda doubt that you really want to get into an extended discussion on the Redbones with me , or for that matter the ' Ticked" hounds that cmae out red-ticked.
> 
> ...


You might be an Old Dog but you don't want to know the truths I know about Pit Dogs........
As for hounds, Dave Dean is related to me and lives by me.
So do you want to talk about ticked hounds? Hammer or the Jet Line Jeff used to run when he was alive with his Night Champions?
Yes, it has been known fact hounds were use to be crossed with Pit Dogs as was Plott hounds for Bear.

Yes, I have met Hemphill and had been to yard and saw his dogs and know what color they were. Have you?
If so please go on...

That is BS about Bourgeous, Williams proved that story is wrong.
What about Blair Hetrick owning stock from Lightner off Citation? 
I've owned this breed of dogs and can prove it then anyone on this forum.
Knew every known top dogman in the last 50 years, Now do you really want debate Pit Dogs with me?
I could care less about current breeders of Wilder dogs and their widows peak dogs. none ever got proven and never will be.
As for Hemphill, Yes I owned a champion grandson of Geronimo and a REAL recognized Register of Merit as reported..........


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

what about ol whats her name, Belle Starr? someone may have the ped.
Can you post the article? Ill see if i can get it from one of my older mentors.
Anything can be changed or edited if its on the net. I have seen things actually cut completely off articles and the posted with half the info also - gotta love the crazy inter net, right. The good stuff !!

awesome day to get out - wantin to try this place.

http://www.experienceemiquon.com/content/nature-conservancy-emiquon-preserve

fist line 1980. My family landed at Bells landing somewhere in this time line, well some of it. I get spiritual enhancement from going to these places with history, and graves of my ancestors to ask for understanding from the trees and stories from the birds. The wind tells no lies either, nor the water or the fire that has touched me.


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

::::COACH:::: said:


> for those who think all dogs with the widow's peak are mixed, they obviusly havent researched or studied color genetics. If they are going to say all all widow's peak/sable/smutt dogs are mixed because of their color/pattern alone then they have to throw out buckskins and black/tan dogs as well. According to color genetics buckskin is "clear" sable. Meaning that its there but it doesn't come out. I could go on and on about this but if you don't want to sit down and actually open your mind to scientific facts, then we will get no where.
> Sure Wilder could have made a couple of hound mixes for someone but does that mean ALL dogs who have this coat pattern are mutts?


Where am I losing you? 
So you want to play the gene recessive marking card?
Ok simply show me in the past where it appeared in OFRN dogs?
No one claim all Wilders dogs were, please read more closely if you wish to engage in this.
Many will dispute this but there already been posted people who Jake admitted breeding Red None Hound to his ApBT.
Now you can check with them or be denial, that is up to you.
Once again show this recessive gene before.


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

mccoypitbulls said:


> what about ol whats her name, Belle Starr? someone may have the ped.
> Can you post the article? Ill see if i can get it from one of my older mentors.
> Anything can be changed or edited if its on the net. I have seen things actually cut completely off articles and them posted with half the info also - gotta love the crazy net.


Which Belle Star?
Mary's one off Gr. Ch. Art's sister? Hang Tuff Belle?
Hemphill's Belle Star? 
You have to narrow it down a bit please.


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

Carriana said:


> Correct, brindling is found on the K allele, sable and tan points are on the A allele.


Brindling is found in all breeds of dogs because it is the foundation marking of the wild dog.
For years breeders tried to cull out brindling of Bull Terrier and only keep the white.
Finally they excepted the truth and quit killing for color.


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

BTW McCoy, I saw Ironhead and he didn't produce the recessive marking on.
In fact Floyd claims Ironhead came from him.
That would explain a lot from my many years with Boudreaux dogs and the markings like from Billy Boy dogs.

I wouldn't say Ironhead is "old time" dog. Not before 1970 and if you want to believe "pure bred" and the paper work of Maurice's dogs, well that is up to you.  lol

BTW Gr. Ch. Backdoor Joey would produce white dogs with black hair spots, blue eyes and deaf!


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

added a bit more to my last one. sorry i go back in time often!! to re read - or spell check . .ha ha ha


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

i agree with that, but there is supposedly his blood flowing in places that some wouldnt expect or imagine. Is that true? Dont know, but it is something i have heard.



Buliwyf said:


> BTW McCoy, I saw Ironhead and he didn't produce the recessive marking on.
> In fact Floyd claims Ironhead came from him.
> That would explain a lot from my many years with Boudreaux dogs and the markings like from Billy Boy dogs.
> 
> ...


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

glad to see you back, but i have to be off. Bout to go built a TP and chain my dogs to the mounds to protect them from intruders! with this government shut down stuff, i dont wanna be taking no chances. The state sees it as their park ya see, but i see it as my ancestors burrial grounds.
maybe this is why both my grandsires are above 6 fy, and im short and have almost black eyes!!
Red headed indians - what can ya say?


----------



## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Buliwyf said:


> Brindling is found in all breeds of dogs because it is the foundation marking of the wild dog.
> For years breeders tried to cull out brindling of Bull Terrier and only keep the white.
> Finally they excepted the truth and quit killing for color.


It's my understanding that the Agouti pattern is the original wild dog pattern. The banded hairs such as on the wolf? Though there is a relationship between A and K alleles which determines which pattern is expressed.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:rofl: whatta mess.... everything I state is based on fact, genetically for sure... simple as that. Yes black and tan dogs carry the red mutation, and yes red is a mutation of black not only in dogs, but humans, and horses too.. I've studied all the bloodlines and down to the nitty gritty as well. Why when we talked I didnt ever call ya, didn't figure you'd come off the dogs I wanted. I gotta Hammonds bred Hammonds/Heinzl 50/50 from him. I would still like to see an honest OFRN bred into her but its not likely. Before even seein the dog I had done the genetic math and figured out what came to be true. I got plenty of honest bulldogs up close in the pedigree.. Use Heinzls style myself in breeding and raising this batch. I wasn't going by stratton but by legitimate experiences in source. According to Heinzl, Lightner, cobly and he all got dogs out of the same litter. MORE THAN ONCE. Also Lightner's own confession of not liking the red dogs cause he felt they're too big for his liking. Also old pics and depictions from the south  I know braddock wasnt solid black he was black brindled. Black being dominate. Corvinos gimp was white and buckskin with a black nose being 50/50 feeley colby that makes sense. TONS of white coming from Tramp aka Kager.. and Black coming from black jack (jr) and the so called Henry dogs. As well as braddock now braddock jr was a red nosed red brindle but braddock was black brindle. Fly of panama was tudors black brindle bitch that was mostly colby. Many of the foundation Corvino dogs were like this, black brindle, black or white with patchwork. Hubbard Bounce appears to be Seal a mutation of red and blk back then and Bounce II was what people today call "blue fawn" all of which makes sense with how tight they bred em. Come on man.. like you didn't have that dog that looked like a choco lab but bred like a Ch bred OFRN. Its just part of the territory of genetics and the dogs that get chosen and used.

Each individual carries the genetic coding for 20K+ DNA sources.... you can guess and check but it helps if you figure out the traits and math with the punit [].

I've had redbones, my uncle has one now.. I've seen OFRN X hound crosses.. LOL i've also seen bout a dozen black and tan APBT bulldogs that folks swore was APBT X hound :hammer: come to find out it was lies or misdirection from the source they got the dog after talkin with me and me saying NO, thats a bulldog. The blood veins in a hounds ear are also more prevalent and sensitive than those bulldog ears even the hound like bulldog ears... you want me to google? Okie dokie... 

















I know you know your stock, but come on.. you really believe that stuff you had or have that was mostly geronimo II was hound? Thought the last working CH you had was down from Ger II. You know I know about gambler, and bobcat, I like bobcat but you know who Im speaking of Im sure his name slips my mind, he's pictured on a wooden deck porch. At least the one I like not to distant in the past. Theres only one Gr CH hemphill dog, you had that in your stock correct? So did you see a difference in the two? Or is it just the other OFRN clans built on mostly wilder blood that your snide-fully dissing? Yes the Colbys culled the red nosed dogs from their breeding not in the early days but over time they did, and when they did they also lost the blk and tan. In my experience I get black and tans and see others with black and tans when they cross red nose buckskin with a brindle or a urajiro OR similar .. some get em from red brindle X solid blue. That includes red... The sorrells stuff of today is the only black and tan stuff built soley off black and tan stuff with very lil red influences. I dont think you realize how tight I bred dogs and how I come to understand the bulldog gene. Remember I started with wolves, I have a bigger understanding of canine genetics than most. NOW .. YOUR DEAD ON POINT with .. APBT X redbone often produces dogs with a "widows peak"
but redbones on their own it is not prevalent. So I can understand your viewpoint. Just not so prevalent that you can say its guaranteed hound X's in all wilder stock. Everything I've touched on your disputing breeds honest and true... With that turtlebuster X you made sometime back, I know black brindle dogs coulda been pulled outta that and folks would have a braddock lookin dog with mostly your stock. Not surprising to me.

According to Pete Sparks... all bulldog pedigrees can be proved to be falsified somewhere except the colby family... now you know I always honor your family's stock as much as I do colby despite that claim. However if your saying wilder bred hound X passed off as apbts then whats that say for your stock with Geronimo II and pete sparks comment? The other OFRN groups I look at one is mostly Clouse or GeronimoII exclusively.. So your mud smears don't mean much to me. Mr. Hammonds said, Son, I've never thought of Clouse as being OFRN but now that you present the facts it sure is. Your the only one that ever bust my chops or some of your acolytes. But in the long run... you can't argue with genetics or truth.. Truth is singular anything else is mistruth. I studied your stock long and hard before I ever went elsewhere, like I said years ago.. I want them pure hemphill dogs if I get a OFRN, if not its just not worth my time. You know I know my  and you know not many understand the stock like I do unless they're your age or older or hold a degree in biology/genetics. Then we usually have great convos. I should've called you years ago but I convinced myself you wouldn't part with hemphill stock so I just didn't bother. Back on black and tan... LOL Ay Ay At At Aa and the variances of them carry black red mutation and are or produce (black and tan)   once you lock it in; it can be very dominant. usually Brindle trumps black and tan or urajiro and with some instances they have mutated into one, especially in the hammonds stuff off of hailstone.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

mccoypitbulls said:


> i agree with that, but there is supposedly his blood flowing in places that some wouldnt expect or imagine. Is that true? Dont know, but it is something i have heard.


I agree with this too.. even Hammonds states M.Carver told him he didn't want any of that ironhead stuff.. Yes we all know Carver, and Tudors rung dogs.. Carver used more E.Crenshaw stuff than he admits, and Boudreaux owned Trahans Rascal. There was a lot of mix up going on, thats for sure...


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> :rofl: whatta mess.... everything I state is based on fact, genetically for sure... simple as that. Yes black and tan dogs carry the red mutation, and yes red is a mutation of black not only in dogs, but humans, and horses too.. I've studied all the bloodlines and down to the nitty gritty as well. Why when we talked I didnt ever call ya, didn't figure you'd come off the dogs I wanted. I gotta Hammonds bred Hammonds/Heinzl 50/50 from him. I would still like to see an honest OFRN bred into her but its not likely. Before even seein the dog I had done the genetic math and figured out what came to be true. I got plenty of honest bulldogs up close in the pedigree.. Use Heinzls style myself in breeding and raising this batch. I wasn't going by stratton but by legitimate experiences in source. According to Heinzl, Lightner, cobly and he all got dogs out of the same litter. MORE THAN ONCE. Also Lightner's own confession of not liking the red dogs cause he felt they're too big for his liking. Also old pics and depictions from the south  I know braddock wasnt solid black he was black brindled. Black being dominate. Corvinos gimp was white and buckskin with a black nose being 50/50 feeley colby that makes sense. TONS of white coming from Tramp aka Kager.. and Black coming from black jack (jr) and the so called Henry dogs. As well as braddock now braddock jr was a red nosed red brindle but braddock was black brindle. Fly of panama was tudors black brindle bitch that was mostly colby. Many of the foundation Corvino dogs were like this, black brindle, black or white with patchwork. Hubbard Bounce appears to be Seal a mutation of red and blk back then and Bounce II was what people today call "blue fawn" all of which makes sense with how tight they bred em. Come on man.. like you didn't have that dog that looked like a choco lab but bred like a Ch bred OFRN. Its just part of the territory of genetics and the dogs that get chosen and used.
> 
> Each individual carries the genetic coding for 20K+ DNA sources.... you can guess and check but it helps if you figure out the traits and math with the punit [].
> 
> ...


Wish I had the time to take this all apart step ny step but I don't have the time and no you are not correct but I don't have time to waste debating and I know is true and prove.

oh btw:

http://static.gotpetsonline.com/pic...es-rescue/pictures/redbone-coonhound-0050.jpg

https://s3.amazonaws.com/pet-uploads.adoptapet.com/b/3/3/65248047.jpg?336w

http://cf.ltkcdn.net/dogs/images/std/66204-340x226-Pharoh_hounds.jpg

a few for you to look at. LOL LOL


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Oh Im correct except where I directly ask you ?'s Because those are honest and would like to know your take or what you know there. .. those pics aren't of redbones... one is a redbone X the others look like pharaoh hounds. I'll have to look you up sometime. I gotta get off here too, dang time goes by so fast during these debates.


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

Oh BTW I use mostly Corvino line in my dogs.
BTW Gimp wasn't a white dog. He was a light yellow red.
I have personal pictures from their owner of Shorty, Gimp and "the Box Dog" Boxer.
BTW no where is it wrote Fly was a black brindle in a black & white picture.
I made fools of people before using black & white pictures of Red and Red Brindle dogs.
I never stated anything we had from G2 had hound in them. 
Our dogs wasn't bred by Jake!
BTW you do know G2 wasn't born until 1971, same year as our first R.O.M. male, who's mother was born in 1967.
His older brother Lowman's Shine 2xw was bred by Bob.
Since you want out people of their dogs, then you should also add, the many years of breeding red dogs, top producer in history of OFRN dogs and the people known to us.
Brag, yes, proved it? Yes!


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)




----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> I agree with this too.. even Hammonds states M.Carver told him he didn't want any of that ironhead stuff.. Yes we all know Carver, and Tudors rung dogs.. Carver used more E.Crenshaw stuff than he admits, and Boudreaux owned Trahans Rascal. There was a lot of mix up going on, thats for sure...


No Maurice didn't.
I lived in TX and been to Ed's place in Carlsbad where my brother's mother-in-law lived and talked to Ed.
Maurice had Mexicans keeping dogs down by the boarder for him.
Also across boarder where Pat had a cat house.
This story never came around until Ms. Spike came around, that dogs came from Ed.

Man there is so much misinformation here, I don't have the time to correct any of this.

Have a good day and believe what you want.
I have a kennel to take care of.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Fly of panama.. not red









and yes I made a mistake.. braddock jr was dark brindle or black brindle not red brindle as I had stated. 









HOWEVER.. you just made some very good points in very few words :clap::goodpost:


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Really???? None of these are Pharaoh Hounds though.

Timber Chopper Kennels - Redbone Coonhounds

Male Redbones - Triple I Kennels - Redbone Coonhounds

Grand River Redbones - Home

Jimmy - Sierra Legacy Coonhounds


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

In these ... Ed Crenshaw states stuff that proves us both wrong, and right in different aspects.

I would've loved to meet and shake the hands of all the folks you did in person. Can't beat experience; thats lifes way to make us knowledgeable for sure.

Thanks man, you too...


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Buliwyf said:


> No Maurice didn't.
> I lived in TX and been to Ed's place in Carlsbad where my brother's mother-in-law lived and talked to Ed.
> Maurice had Mexicans keeping dogs down by the boarder for him.
> Also across boarder where Pat had a cat house.
> ...


 That's pretty general knowledge about the Carvers in some regions. Now I got a question for ya , ***why not*** , correct that misinformation?? Isn't it a disservice to the dogs as a whole if you let misinformation stand as valid?

We're getting down to the brass here as regards discussion , why would you bail now? , Why get up from the table when the meat course is being served? If that's the case why come to dinner in the first place if you're only going to share a biscuit?


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Oh Im correct except where I directly ask you ?'s Because those are honest and would like to know your take or what you know there. .. those pics aren't of redbones... one is a redbone X the others look like pharaoh hounds. I'll have to look you up sometime. I gotta get off here too, dang time goes by so fast during these debates.


yes they are, google and don't be in denial.........
These are from Kennel pictures. Yes there are some of other hounds.
Still show OFRN in the past with widows peak!
Until then, what was told to so many by Jake is the truth.

BTW Old Dog, I had to laugh when you posted Buck's pedigree from Alan who sold Buck to John of STP. 
Pat personally told me the paper work wasn't right. lol

Last thing Clouse dogs had a bunch of Hemphill and OFRN bloodlines in them. Look at Skagg's old Hemphill lines and look far back on Ch. Butcher Boy........
Also Stabber had a bunch of Corvino in him and that is why Frank Creed owned him and buried him when he died in his front yard.

BTW Bruce's Jerry was the heaviest of the imported OFR blood of the times.
he was a Feeley dog as most of mine are.
here is a trivia for the expects.
Who was Clyde Mason's father-in-law?  later~~~~~~~


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

OldDog said:


> That's pretty general knowledge about the Carvers in some regions. Now I got a question for ya , ***why not*** , correct that misinformation?? Isn't it a disservice to the dogs as a whole if you let misinformation stand as valid?
> 
> We're getting down to the brass here as regards discussion , why would you bail now? , Why get up from the table when the meat course is being served? If that's the case why come to dinner in the first place if you're only going to share a biscuit?


You want to see something bail, reach out to me! Now lets take this off line.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Buliwyf said:


> You want to see something bail, reach out to me! Now lets take this off line.


now we're talkin.. LOL be good; we'll see ya~


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Buliwyf said:


> BTW Old Dog, I had to laugh when you posted Buck's pedigree from Alan who sold Buck to John of STP.
> Pat personally told me the paper work wasn't right. lol


 And? Again fairly general knowledge. And why take it "offline". GAWDAMNIT quit dodging my POINT. Ya got folks attention , folks here will listen now quit playing the fairytale gawdamn bread crumb game and SHAKE LOOSE of the information , sure colored in some places by your opinions , but cut it loose man.

Whataya gonna carry it to your grave? Ya up and die and that info may well be lost , whatthef*** , gonna hold it that close to the vest until you're in the box and the man is saying his sermon?

Damn it put it out there insteada playing games. This stuff is important. And by the way , you may be getting some semi flack 'cause your delivery sucks even worse than mine , and that's saying something now isn't it.


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

Because you are a waste of my time.
This is the very reason why I don't come on this forum very often.
Lets see how many of our people been ban?
LOL Don't need this crap. But if you want your pockets lighten, be my pleasure... Now Good Day. I have Kennel to paint while I can. BYEEEEEEEEEEEEE. rotflmmfao @ ur (_?_)


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> :rofl: whatta mess.... everything I state is based on fact, genetically for sure... simple as that. Yes black and tan dogs carry the red mutation, and yes red is a mutation of black not only in dogs, but humans, and horses too.. I've studied all the bloodlines and down to the nitty gritty as well. Why when we talked I didnt ever call ya, didn't figure you'd come off the dogs I wanted. I gotta Hammonds bred Hammonds/Heinzl 50/50 from him. I would still like to see an honest OFRN bred into her but its not likely. Before even seein the dog I had done the genetic math and figured out what came to be true. I got plenty of honest bulldogs up close in the pedigree.. Use Heinzls style myself in breeding and raising this batch. I wasn't going by stratton but by legitimate experiences in source. According to Heinzl, Lightner, cobly and he all got dogs out of the same litter. MORE THAN ONCE. Also Lightner's own confession of not liking the red dogs cause he felt they're too big for his liking. Also old pics and depictions from the south  I know braddock wasnt solid black he was black brindled. Black being dominate. Corvinos gimp was white and buckskin with a black nose being 50/50 feeley colby that makes sense. TONS of white coming from Tramp aka Kager.. and Black coming from black jack (jr) and the so called Henry dogs. As well as braddock now braddock jr was a red nosed red brindle but braddock was black brindle. Fly of panama was tudors black brindle bitch that was mostly colby. Many of the foundation Corvino dogs were like this, black brindle, black or white with patchwork. Hubbard Bounce appears to be Seal a mutation of red and blk back then and Bounce II was what people today call "blue fawn" all of which makes sense with how tight they bred em. Come on man.. like you didn't have that dog that looked like a choco lab but bred like a Ch bred OFRN. Its just part of the territory of genetics and the dogs that get chosen and used.
> 
> Each individual carries the genetic coding for 20K+ DNA sources.... you can guess and check but it helps if you figure out the traits and math with the punit [].
> 
> ...


Add that recessive gene (sorrells red), but (recessive b&t) also to a Colby, and what ya get - this is NOT mutiple choice folks well based on history....ya get Rudolph the Red nose Colby!!
it is simple back breeding, on a way larger spectrum.
Following the breedings of dogs and cattle is just like horses and peoples.


----------



## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm a little late jumping in on this....so does Buliwyf think that all dogs with sable/widow's peaks are hound mixes? Or only the OFRN with sable/widow's peak? So all the sorrells dogs are hound crosses? The dog in my avatar is mosty Boudreaux with little bit of Divine. I have another dog who is a 50/50 Tombstone Bolio and sorrells. Here is a picture of her sister. It's hard to tell but she has a faint widow's peak that has slowy been fading as she matures. She has a few black/tan dogs in the ped. So I am assuming he thinks she is a hound mix...as well as my Boudreaux dog... Anyway, here is the sorrells/tombstone girl


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Buliwyf said:


> Because you are a waste of my time.
> This is the very reason why I don't come on this forum very often.
> Lets see how many of our people been ban?
> LOL Don't need this crap. But if you want your pockets lighten, be my pleasure... Now Good Day. I have Kennel to paint while I can. BYEEEEEEEEEEEEE. rotflmmfao @ ur (_?_)


 " Our people"? what's that? And do you specialise in missing the damn point or what?

And of course you're " laughing" , that's the only response you can come up with , so take your carrot and stick act and run along elsewhere , it figures. Guess ya didn't have the stuff ya said ya had.

Sorry that I wasn't duly impressed by ya pounding on those jiggle , saggy man-boobs.


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

:doggy: - silent thinking:hammer:


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Thank you Buliwyf!!! I know that the info. that you shared in just a few pages is but a drop's worth from a life time of devotion to this breed. What a pleasure. Now get to painting...rain is coming our way


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

ill do an upside down rain dance quick and send it on a swirlin


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

wow, buli, i see you held up long as you could,

but when old dog, put his signature 'finishing move' on you,

it didnt take long, bing,bang, boom, and your done,

someone get out the mirror for the breath test.

i thought it was gonig fine, something i would call a 'classic'

but you got all types...................
when you get in the left lane, you better be ready,

because the games are over, this is the real life,

cant remember which one said something about the others pockets getting lighter,

but becareful, i might want to get in on that,. 

me or mine dont take a beatseat to ANYONE, and aint afraid to prove it.

show or go, 

see you in 'old mexico' got a 'ch' down there right now, and got some pups up here available, but they aint cheap.........................

2for30............ does anyone know??????????????????????????????


----------



## back2basics (Apr 9, 2012)

Sometimes reading these threads it seems like the same people talking to each other with different names. A similar thread popped up last year somewhere else. A lot of this info was posted there, and more, before it was all deleted. Did you get to check that one out McCoy?
It was the ones with the widows peaks, sables, wild type, **** hound crosses, the masking effects of the color red, and dorsal stripes I believe. And maybe a comment from Stratton as well. Happy belated, mine just passed, had to represent the Libras.


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Threads like this always give me so much more to read up about.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

back2basics said:


> Sometimes reading these threads it seems like the same people talking to each other with different names. A similar thread popped up last year somewhere else. A lot of this info was posted there, and more, before it was all deleted. Did you get to check that one out McCoy?
> It was the ones with the widows peaks, sables, wild type, **** hound crosses, the masking effects of the color red, and dorsal stripes I believe. And maybe a comment from Stratton as well. Happy belated, mine just passed, had to represent the Libras.


:welcome:I recall like it twas yesterday!
remember what happened on there? - like a re run kinda, but i am just reading now mainly. Glad some have opened their minds to the principles behind pattern in animals and how they are carried. Some have really studied up on it from what i gather from this episode. :rain:
Some maybe not so much, but genetics do not fib!!

history -gotta love it , eh?


----------



## back2basics (Apr 9, 2012)

mccoypitbulls said:


> :welcome:I recall like it twas yesterday!
> remember what happened on there? - like a re run kinda, but i am just reading now mainly. Glad some have opened their minds to the principles behind pattern in animals and how they are carried. Some have really studied up on it from what i gather from this episode. :rain:
> Some maybe not so much, but genetics do not fib!!
> 
> history -gotta love it , eh?


Sure do, just glad that there's not as much of the unpleasantness from the last one. Some good info was put up and hopefully in the future when some newbie comes on and doesn't know what's right from left, takes the time to read it through 3 or 4 times.:woof:


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Just was doing some searching on the widows peak thing, and noticed this was in the catche - also was a thread dedicated to the term, from another forum, and it had some great information and some DNA testing dont for research
It was the Ultimate find - a honey hole if you will - to load up on for ol effin red neck retard stories -


----------



## Buliwyf (Aug 29, 2011)

I don't know why I waste my time with some of these idiots. I do things in my time frame and I love it when they run their mouth then is shown how inept they are.
Dog Coat Color MC1R


----------



## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Buliwyf said:


> I don't know why I waste my time with some of these idiots. I do things in my time frame and I love it when they run their mouth then is shown how inept they are.
> Dog Coat Color MC1R


Step softly Buliwyf...truth is like a rock hitting thin ice these days in America. 
"But my daddy said that this dogman's daddy said, that his grand daddy said there was widows peak so it must be true!" 

Any truth gets told to modern "opinions" only ends up where food goes--->>> :flush:

:rofl::rofl:


----------



## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Buliwyf said:


> I don't know why I waste my time with some of these idiots. I do things in my time frame and I love it when they run their mouth then is shown how inept they are.
> Dog Coat Color MC1R


If you don't waste your time with em, who will? You know deep down they need to hear it from y'all !


----------



## josh victor (Aug 29, 2015)

my german shpherd has no peds too so i normally don't care about that much .
Josh | German shepherds


----------

