# Injections???



## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

So I'm talking to this guy I know and he starts telling me about his hook ups for dog meds and what not... Some how we get on the subject of APBT muscle. He then tells me that he's got the hook up on muscle builders (steroids?) and says "but you gotta run them constantly on that shit", then he tells me that a lot of people he knows are giving their dogs B12 injections and that it works like a muscle builder that you don't have to work as hard with. I thought B12 was just an energy type thing. Anyway, I was wondering what you guys think of this. I mean. is this totally wrong or just common practice. I feel that if you gotta good dog, feed em' right, and exercise that it's enough. Gimme some feed back


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

I say no way. It's not a good thing to do. The dog should be about natural ability and drive. Strength and power are useful traits but worthless without drive. Drive is the most useful trait and does not require strength and power. Not only that, but could you imagine a dog with roid rage?


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

That's the way I see it... I mean, what the hell is the point??? Is it just for looks, ego? I don't even see the point in a fighter being bulked up. I was talking with a dog fighter a few years ago and he was telling me that he gives his fighters steroids for bulk and a half hour before a match he would give them extasy to get them pissed off. I wanted to choke that guy but I was not in a position to.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

And I see your point about their drive... What IS the point of having a dog bulked up, if it's for weight pulling (per say) there's no point if they just don't want to put much into it. There's a few pits out there that are very muscular and compact at the same time and it's nice to see that. But, I know that these dogs didn't need much to get there, they're just built by good breeding. I would tend to think that an oversized dog that works out alot and is bulky would tire out fast. I'm happy with the muscle def that a couple of my dogs have, I'd like to keep them that way too. Still I'd like to understand why somebody would bulk up and how the whole b12 thing works. I kinda have doubts about that, think it's bad info. My dogs have a small amount of 
B12 in their diets, 15mcg to be exact and I've noticed an increase in vitality. But then homeboy tells me that ppl are bulking up with injections and I'm stuck wondering how that works. Just some thoughts, I have a habbit of thinking outloud sometimes... lol. I also think that innoculating your dog on a weekly basis would increase chances of infection, I mean who the hell is gonna shave and disinfect on a weekly basis. Speaking of innoculation, does anyone here with a kennel/breeding program immunize their own dogs??? I understand that buyers like to see official record of it but I also understand that it costs a hell of alot less to do it yourself.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

I see nothing wrong with bringing a dog up to HIS own personal potential but trying to make a dog into something that it's not is wrong IMO. It kills me how people these days are taking the perfect breed, watering it down, and then attempting to "improve" a subpar dog with chemicals and crossbreeding. Where the hell do these people come from??? Good topic though.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

Steroids put strain on the heart of a dog just like in humans. It pumps up the adrenalin until the heart can not take it any longer. "Heart Attack or Cardiac Arrest!" 

B12 the only reason they say it works the same is on the adrenalin, produces a high energy level. but the burn out aka crash factor is hard on the dog or human. 

Everything should be done in moderation but steriods ... NO one or NO animal should take them. 

train the dog on it own merits, let the naturally turn into what he needs to become. 

Deb


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't believe that anyone should be on steriods. Back in 1987 my Mama got really sick she couldn't move it was like her muscles were paralyized the doctors gave her gold shots (steriods) it helped her and then when the shots didn't last as long they put her pedisone everyday for the rest of her life they didn't tell her tho that you need to bulk up on calicum and other vitamins and minerals those drugs just ate away her body. At the end my Mama couldn't do much more than just sit on the edge of her bed. I would never ever do that to another living being. I never give my dogs the steriods I get from the vets.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

buzhunter said:


> I see nothing wrong with bringing a dog up to HIS own personal potential but trying to make a dog into something that it's not is wrong IMO.


Exactly. :goodpost:


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I agree with a dog should perform at his potential. I personally know people that do inject thier dogs, mainly with B12. Early on in my career I even did it but no longer do. I didnt like how it made them act and felt like I really wasnt showing my dog,plus if I won I didnt want anyone to say it was me and not my dog. I still have the vial near my food just to remind me. Allot of dog fighter do this too and like Geisxie said you have to be very carefull because it will make a dog run hot. I think it is a bad practice. I dont frown on the use of B12 as much as its just vitamin but I never have approved of steroid use.


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## advocatekennels (May 8, 2008)

reddoggy said:


> Speaking of innoculation, does anyone here with a kennel/breeding program immunize their own dogs??? I understand that buyers like to see official record of it but I also understand that it costs a hell of alot less to do it yourself.


We immunize our dogs ourselves. The only thing you have to get at the vet is the actual rabies shot and a heart worm test. What we do for records: on the vile there is a label that is made to peel off. We stick that beside the date on the dogs records for proof. It has the injection info, lot and expiration date of the drug. Each one is individually numbered. You can get these at a local co-op. I used to work at a vet clinic and it is the exact same immunizations as what they give. You just have to know how to "indian tent" the skin and give the injection.

Canine distemper- adenovirus type 2, parainfluenza, parvovirus - these are in the last shot you give in a series. the earlier ones cover more


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## intensive (Apr 22, 2008)

iv never heard of b12 being used for anything besides cutting coke!

i kno its in vitamins but not in large amounts like i would think and injection consists of, that cannot be healthy for kidneys or liver functions over long periods of time.

i dont think anything else is needed to make a pitbull strong, just excersize


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

MY MIKADO said:


> I don't believe that anyone should be on steriods. Back in 1987 my Mama got really sick she couldn't move it was like her muscles were paralyized the doctors gave her gold shots (steriods) it helped her and then when the shots didn't last as long they put her pedisone everyday for the rest of her life they didn't tell her tho that you need to bulk up on calicum and other vitamins and minerals those drugs just ate away her body. At the end my Mama couldn't do much more than just sit on the edge of her bed. I would never ever do that to another living being. I never give my dogs the steriods I get from the vets.


I'm sorry That's aweful.
What I understand about steroid use is that the very fist time you use muscle enhansing roids it alters a specific gene related to blood presure and heart rythm. Basically, it gives you a dormant heart disease... any given moment through out life after only one use, you can go into cardiac arrest. OFK, do you agree with a B12 shot, say, every blue moon. What are the benefits. Deb, you say that like anything, there is a crash after use. Is it like a crash after drinking an energy drink, or is there things like loss of appetite, depression, lethargia, things of that nature? Buz, I couldn't agree more, that's why I brought this up. What IS the point? OFK, you've stated here that earlier in you career you practiced this, were you refering to b12 or steroid use? It's good that you are willing to speak out on it, it's far better to learn from someone elses mistakes and hardfalls. What was your pupose, was it being driven to win or was it bad influence? I wonder how many competitors are out there, nonfight, that are using performance enhansing drugs...


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

intensive said:


> iv never heard of b12 being used for anything besides cutting coke!
> 
> i kno its in vitamins but not in large amounts like i would think and injection consists of, that cannot be healthy for kidneys or liver functions over long periods of time.
> 
> ...


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## wittypits (Apr 6, 2008)

Our vet recommend B12 complex for our oldest dog. He says a very small amount 2-3 times a week to help her with her energy level.
My doctors suggest I take it as well to help with my diabetes. It does have many health benefits for animals and humans if given properly in small amounts.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

The peeps in my fam that take it are diabetic too! I find the complex to be well rounded. It has b6 in it too, thus lowering stress levels. I like the super B complex alot! I mean, we're talking micro-grams opposed to a half CC. That just sounds like over kill to me... But, then again, I'm not a Doctor. I'm gonna do some looking around for the pros and cons of b12 use in dogs and I'll let you guys know what I find, do the asme if you feel like it.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

In puppies, vitamin B12 helps stimulate the appetite, leading to better weight gain and growth. It is also crucial to the production of red blood cells, and therefore may help reduce the borderline anemia seen in so many puppies.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Here's one on B all around

Vitamin B:
Vitamin B (made up of a number of individual parts and commonly called B Complex), is fragile, water-soluble vitamins that are required for a number of critical body functions including assimilating fat and protein, promoting various biochemical reactions, building antibodies, red blood cell formation and more. Bs are crucial for neural function. Specifically, deficiency of Vitamin B6, B12 and Folic Acid are implicated in seizures. The individual parts of Vitamin B are synergistic with each other and with other vitamins and should be supplied in B Complex form in order to avoid any imbalance. Holistic veterinarians Drs. Wendell Belfield and Martin Zucker stated that "It has long been known that a deficiency of vitamin B6 or any interference with its function can cause seizures in any mammalian species, including man and dog". Deficiency of Vitamin B is widely identified as a cause for for seizures in humans and canines alike. Because these vitamins are fragile and easily destroyed by cooking, commercial diets are lacking in Vitamin B. Raw diets provide Vitamin B in unaltered form, but many raw feeders, and care givers for dogs with seizure disorders add additional Vitamin Bs in supplement form to their dogs' diets. Vitamin B is an extremely important element in an epileptic dog's diet. Vitamin B Complex supplement is crucial if you are feeding a commercial diet and is also supplemented with homemade cooked or raw diets. Remember, adequate levels of B vitamins are critical to your epi-dogs health, and because Bs are water-soluble, you cannot overdose your dog with this vitamin.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> Our vet recommend B12 complex for our oldest dog. He says a very small amount 2-3 times a week to help her with her energy level


When I used to rodeo, most of the contractors gave B12 to the bulls before the rodeos, it made them more energetic and buck harder. Yeah when I first started I tried it with Rebel as he was very laid back. I wanted to boost his energy levels. Honestly I really didnt see a huge difference and so I saw no need to continue. It was my own competitive edge that made me do it. I never have given them roids though. I just dont see the need to do it. I have seen dogs on the track and I KNOW they are getting injected. The pull like maniacs all frothing and drooling but I still cant do it anymore. We usually do just fine without it. There are TONS of debates to on how much is to much and does it flood the kidneys, so I said screw it, Im not doing it and we just let the dog do what the dog does.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Yeah, you're better off. Doesn't sound like that big of a deal with bull, cause of size, but dogs are another story. Like a competative sports, just stay natural, if not it's not really you winning... Same goes for dogs. What I've been reading today are articals on how beneficial B12 is to the diabetic, epileptic, and hyperthyriod type dogs. I found alot on what I already knew about supplementing with small doses for bone, blood, and cardio health too. I've yet to find out how it's directly related to muscle building though... Is it just the increase of energy linking to the ability to work longer? I see alot of muscle builders out there, especially on bully sites and it all just looks like crap, much like a tonic from back in the day!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I dont know that it does anything for muscle. Its basically just an energy boost.


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## advocatekennels (May 8, 2008)

reddoggy said:


> intensive said:
> 
> 
> > . Oh, A-K, by indian tenting are you refering to skin popping??? Like injecting at a 0degree thus causing the medication to make a slight bubble underneath the skin? Curiosity is getting the better of me lately.
> ...


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

That makes alot of sense. I always see, on AP, the vets and techs sticking the dogs in the wrist in an upward motion, kinda always wondered how the dogs felt about that.:hammer:


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

*good explanation*

Hey Redoggy and Advocate- "Indian tenting" is placing the shot under the top layer of subcutaneous skin Advocate did a great job explaining it. Sub cutaneous shots work because it is the most vascular place in the skin and therefore the medicine is absorbed quickly. A deepr shot into the muscle takes longer to deliver to the body since it is not as vascular a space but the duration of the medicinal effects are longer.
Re-dog- skin popping is most commonly used (in the medicine world) when folks get a Tuberculosis test on their arm. You still get the medicine but the absorption rate is different yet again from a deeper subcutaneous route.
Yeah I do all my own vaccines and stuff except for heartworms and rabies. I just transfer the skills I already have from nursing.


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## advocatekennels (May 8, 2008)

bluefamily said:


> Hey Redoggy and Advocate- "Indian tenting" is placing the shot under the top layer of subcutaneous skin...


Is this why they do the rabies shot into the muscle? For the absorbance factor?

(this is why I LOVE this forum!!)


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

*rabies shot*

Abso-tively that is the short answer
-the long answer has to do with creating a steady state of vaccine within the body for all the antibodies to mount its attack on the foreign matter, virus, bacteria, etc.

As for the B12 shots here are more specific references about B12. It is a water soluble vitamin ,meaning it will wash through the body any extra the body doesn't need.
GENERAL DESCRIPTION of Vitamin b12

Cyanocobalamin is a synthetic form of vitamin B12, which is prescribed to correct vitamin B12 deficiency. Vitamin B12 is found in organ meats, liver, beef, pork, eggs, whole milk, cheese, whole wheat bread, and fish. As vitamin B12 is not found in plant foods unless they are fortified (e.g. breakfast cereal), vegans are likely to benefit from vitamin B12 supplementation.

Vitamin B12 is required for the production of red and white blood cells and blood platelets (thrombocytes), the manufacture of substances needed for correct cell functioning, and the metabolism of nutrients necessary for cell growth. It is essential for the recycling of certain enzymes that maintain the health of blood, nerve, and other cells. It also aids the metabolism of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. It may stimulate appetite in children. An "intrinsic factor" must exist in the stomach for this vitamin to be absorbed. 
--from World health.net

General Description of Steroids:

Steroids are manufactured testosterone-like drugs that are usually taken to build muscle, enhance performance, and improve appearance. While some steroids are used medically to treat many conditions including asthma, chronic lung disease, skin conditions and allergic reactions such as poison ivy, non medical use of steroids can have serious side effects. Using steroids for cosmetic or athletic purposes is not sanctioned in the United States. 
Oral steroids can be found in your system up to several weeks after use. Injected steroids can be found for several months after use.

Short-term Consequences

Use of steroids can increase muscle mass, strength, and endurance, but can also cause liver tumors, jaundice, water retention, and high blood pressure. Some users show bad judgment because the drugs make them feel invincible. Other users suffer from uncontrolled aggression and violent behavior called "Roid Rage", severe mood swings, manic episodes and depression. They often suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability and can have delusions.

Long-Term Consequences

When the body experiences a build up of steroids in its system, conditions such as hypertension, high cholesterol, kidney disease, stunted growth, and heart damage are likely to occur. Women can experience irreversible deepening of the voice, shrinking of the breasts, menstrual irregularities, baldness and hair growth on other parts of the body, and genital swelling. Men can experience baldness, breast enlargement, sterility, shrinking of testicles and impotence. Steroids such as prednisone and other synthetic steroids, can cause a rise in blood sugar by blocking the effect of insulin. Over time, users can develop diabetes.-- from American Council on Drug education

As far as giving weekly injections go, it isn't really a big deal, just a matter of keeping what you will inject clean prior to doing so and then keeping what you will inject with clean.--I must admit, it was kind of intimidating the first time I ever gave a shot in nursing.


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## PullDawgPits (Apr 15, 2008)

reddoggy said:


> That makes alot of sense. I always see, on AP, the vets and techs sticking the dogs in the wrist in an upward motion, kinda always wondered how the dogs felt about that.:hammer:


The front leg is the easiest place to hit a vein. If you see them doing this it is usually for sedative, drawing blood or starting an iv. You wouldn't give vaccines there.

Stephanie


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