# Favorite Pit/Bully Breed Crosses



## Lex'sFart

Found this pic on the net of a Staffy Bull X Bullmastiff. Great looking dog. Anyone else own a cool cross or have a favorite?


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## SuthernStyles

I hear crickets in here


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## truepits92

that is a nice dog, I love my APBTs though lol *everything* else is _okay_ imo. I like _some_ game and bully line mixes.


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## gixxerific

My fav is an true APBT mixed with a true APBT.:woof:


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## Old_Blood

I don't have pics ATM (should have them on my computer).

But I like working dogs and there have been some nice ones...

One was a Presa Canario x APBT protection dog

Then there are 2 working Boerboel x APBT in South Africa very nice dogs.


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## william williamson

I wouldn't breed anything to my pit,and if something jumped my fence,I'd kill it and the litter.
did that once with A doberman.threw it off the cape fear river bridge.9 weeks later the puppies got the hammer knock while still in the sack.


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## JimSG74

william williamson said:


> I wouldn't breed anything to my pit,and if something jumped my fence,I'd kill it and the litter.
> did that once with A doberman.threw it off the cape fear river bridge.9 weeks later the puppies got the hammer knock while still in the sack.


WOW!! That's all I have to say about that.


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## william williamson

Helomech74 said:


> WOW!! That's all I have to say about that.


you would love the story.it is one of irony,and pit bull justice.


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## Novakkennels

Ive had bandogges (game bred x mastiff)who proved to be loyal companions and good guard dogs.


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## Old_Blood

william williamson said:


> I wouldn't breed anything to my pit,and if something jumped my fence,I'd kill it and the litter.
> did that once with A doberman.threw it off the cape fear river bridge.9 weeks later the puppies got the hammer knock while still in the sack.


Um how is it the male's fault? It's called natural instinct.

If its a stray it'd be following its nose, running about.

Oops litters like that come down to irresponsible owners.

If it was owned by someone they should keep their damn dog contained! (loose dogs highly irritate me)

The female was also left in a position to get pregnant.

If owners were more careful on both ends things like this wouldn't happen. If they've done everything right but something happens, well there are those exceptions. I'd recommend abort the litter.


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## william williamson

Old_Blood said:


> Um how is it the male's fault? It's called natural instinct.
> 
> If its a stray it'd be following its nose, running about.
> 
> Oops litters like that come down to irresponsible owners.
> 
> If it was owned by someone they should keep their damn dog contained! (loose dogs highly irritate me)
> 
> The female was also left in a position to get pregnant.
> 
> If owners were more careful on both ends things like this wouldn't happen. If they've done everything right but something happens, well there are those exceptions. I'd recommend abort the litter.


it was a dog,that had been loose on several occasions.

the owner was the type that when you complained about it,like going to his door,he would threaten to let the dog out on you.
it was a manbiter,it roamed freely and he thought it was A friggin joke.
well,the joke ended when he crawled over A 6' chainlink containment space for in heat dogs.
when I opened the area he attacked me,while dragging A 1200.00 dog around.
ask me if it hurt my feelings again.
I am not the guy who tolerates his own dogs when they are HA.I've put down some dogs I really cared for.
I have never had an accident on my yard due to negligence in regards to yard fights or out of breed lock ups.
I have had yard fights,due to mechanical failures.collars loosing,I took to hair tying the flap ends.and inspecting them with the other things on the list.
I had A list for food can check,bucket checks,axle checks,barrel checks,rotations for dogs,to not be with the same dog beside them constantly,kennel checks.my kennels were dug in,the bases concreted etc.
I'm A construction worker. 25 years ago you'd have called it state of the art.
I believe that everything you give your dog or do for them is returned,unconditionally and 10 fold.
I also do not agree,and will not put up with pit mixes.
folks won't blame the dobe and say A dobe pit mix.they'll say pit bull did this,pit bull did that.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

I'm not a mix fan especially with this breed... Too much negativity already without mixes...


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## Blue_Nose_Bella

Iv'e seen pit bull/cattle dog mixes that were beautiful but I would never intentionally breed a mixed breed. It blows my mind how many people don't spay/neuter and the dog gets blamed. It's us HUMANS responsibility to care for our dogs and be responsible. If you have intact animals they should never be left in a position to have oops litters. And I don't know what "knocked off" means in regards to the dobe/pit mix litter but I don't condone any kind of mistreatment of animals.


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## LadyRampage

Old_Blood said:


> Um how is it the male's fault? It's called natural instinct.
> 
> If its a stray it'd be following its nose, running about.
> 
> Oops litters like that come down to irresponsible owners.
> 
> If it was owned by someone they should keep their damn dog contained! (loose dogs highly irritate me)
> 
> The female was also left in a position to get pregnant.
> 
> If owners were more careful on both ends things like this wouldn't happen. If they've done everything right but something happens, well there are those exceptions. I'd recommend abort the litter.


If a stray is running about following its nose, there is an irresponsible owner letting it do so. Its the responsiblity of owners to contain their dogs. I live in the middle of nowhere, nearest neighbor is a mile away. I do not allow ANY of my dogs to run free, EVER. I recently was taking care of a friends female, who came in heat and I didn't notice. I "dropped" off male, who was horribly skinny was found on the yard with her. 2 months later she has a litter of pups. In almost 15 years of having these dogs that is the FIRST time we had a opps litter involving a stray. The male was put down. We didn't look for the owners, because frankly people are horrible, it is not unusual for dogs to be dumped off out here in the country to starve because their owners can't be bothered to have them humanely put down. The litter is with the owners of the dam, I'm not sure what they will be doing with them but I can tell you I'd do exactly what William did and have them put down. I too don't agree with pit mixes or crosses because he's right, its not seen as whatever other breed is in it, its seen as a pit mix and I'm not adding to the ever growing problem of bad rap APBTs.


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## Sadie

The best Pit mix is NO mix @ all! Leave established breeds alone ... Man what the heck is wrong with people? People need to respect the many years that went into making these dogs instead of trying to mess with perfection. There is no benefit to mixing Apbt blood with any other breed. It's an abomination in my eyes. An APBT = perfection... anything else is just that anything else.



How about taking care of all the mutt's in shelters first before proposing that we breed more mutt's ? It's a GD shame how people will destroy breeds and dogs for their own selfish wants and needs. Trust me there is nothing you or anyone else can create or add to these dogs that Floyd, Colby, Tudor, Heinzel, Hammonds, Clouse, ect didn't already breed into these dogs. You honestly think you can do it better than the creators of these dogs? I think not! Respect the men who gave us these dogs and their life long work that went into them.


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## davidfitness83

I really like this bandog, people in the protection community say he is one of the toughest in the country.

Fila x apbt 




























This dog is a real man stopper


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## davidfitness83

I also like neo x apbt crosses they can really damage someone that doesn't belong in your property.


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## junkyard

That dog looks nothing like it has any fila in it . Must be a small %.

Ive seen many nice crosses but i wouldnt own many before i would own an APBT or if i had the room some of the other breeds that are pure i would want.


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## Sadie

Yeah using apbt blood to create man biters that's highly intelligent .... it goes against everything the apbt was bred for. And then people wonder why our breed is in danger and why these mutts bite humans and the media thinks they are apbt's. I am not impressed by any apbt or apbt cross that is bred to attack/bite humans. There is nothing impressive about that.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Tara as usual I have to agree... Breeding a cross of the apbt for guard work is just adding to the problem and is not what their purpose was... You want a man biter get a dobie or Gsd or am bulldog... You want a companion get a apbt why bother with a mutt...


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## davidfitness83

They said its a 50 50 cross. You have to remember that the long ears are not present in this dog. I wouldn't be surprised if it had houndish ears when it was born.


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## davidfitness83

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Tara as usual I have to agree... Breeding a cross of the apbt for guard work is just adding to the problem and is not what their purpose was... You want a man biter get a dobie or Gsd or am bulldog... You want a companion get a apbt why bother with a mutt...


American bulldog has apbt in it lol and mastiff and English bulldog too.,


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## davidfitness83

junkyard said:


> That dog looks nothing like it has any fila in it . Must be a small %.
> 
> Ive seen many nice crosses but i wouldnt own many before i would own an APBT or if i had the room some of the other breeds that are pure i would want.


It's hard to find mastiff stock that can actually move and work. I'd rather have a bandog than a pure mastiff unless I could find working stock.


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## Moose7

davidfitness83 said:


> I really like this bandog, people in the protection community say he is one of the toughest in the country.
> 
> Fila x apbt
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> This dog is a real man stopper


Nice dog, Bandogs can be very impressive.


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## QuagliozziNena

*mixes*

Not a real fan of Pit mixes, but i have other mixes. 
Don't really agree with how those pups were put down, but i agree on Owner Responsibility, I live on 5 Acres, and none of my Bullies got out.. just the little Houndini Beagle. Got the fence fixed so he can't though lol. 
I have had a oops litter once just once, we adopted the pups out after we got them all spayed and neutered, then the dam was spayed. Couple of strays got her so really couldn't do anything about that.:hammer:


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## davidfitness83

I think of a mutt and a bandog in totally different terms. Every dog breed we have now were at one point crosses of working dogs. if a dog can't work then it's not worth breeding regardless of how pure it is.


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## davidfitness83

Moose7 said:


> Nice dog, Bandogs can be very impressive.


Yeah that dog is a beauty


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## ibeffudled

my ACD/staffy cross is a great dog to me, i truly do not like the idea of mixed breed dogs but all my dogs kind of just fell into my lap as pups i didn't pay a dime for any of them. but my dog does show why you shouldnt mix breeds, though well socialized and extremely well trained he tends to have a biting issue with someone he gets a shady vibe from. never a kid or someone i knew just people that show up with others but it gets annoying having to keep him away from people


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## Sadie

davidfitness83 said:


> I think of a mutt and a bandog in totally different terms. Every dog breed we have now were at one point crosses of working dogs. if a dog can't work then it's not worth breeding regardless of how pure it is.


Your idea of work and mine are 2 totally different things. Any dog can pull weight .. Poodles can pull it's a no brainer. Really any APBT can work outside the box they excel at everything because they are an all around working terrier .. The real test of a working bulldog is proving it's gameness. Anything else is just a legal way to keep our dogs healthy and active without ending up in jail. And it doesn't matter who's dog it is or how it's bred this is just the way I see things.


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## davidfitness83

I agree, thats why kennels use apbt. A chiwawa can weight pull but the apbt adds the programming that makes it unstoppable. Giant breeds gas out becaue they have been bred for looks and size. They add the wonderful apbt blood to give it life and a hardware transplant. It's illegal to game test but in my opinion that is the only way to prove an apbt is breeding worthy to another apbt if someone wants to claim they have or breed true gamedogs.


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## davidfitness83

I think crossing a hog dog to a working mastiff is also a good way to keep a sense of hunting ability and fearlessness without adding too much dog agression. Most people that breed bandogs do so for protection or security applications, severa animal agression in my opinion takes away the focus of a good guard dog. I doubt too many people over seas where it is illegal want to breed bandogs for the pit, it's pointless the apbt is king and pound for pound the best canine gladiator get what I mean?


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## Sadie

Game dogs are proven dogs box dogs .. An Apbt is a dog who stems from game dogs (proven dogs) or a game dog him/herself. You don't have to game test your dogs for them to be APBT's .. But if your breeding them you should be proving they are worth something .. Because after 4 generations of no game tested dogs it's pretty much a waste of dog. I personally don't breed for that very reason .. However I would gladly take one of my dogs and breed it to a open game dog stud one who has already earned it's wins in the box.


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## Sadie

davidfitness83 said:


> I think crossing a hog dog to a working mastiff is also a good way to keep a sense of hunting ability and fearlessness without adding too much dog agression. Most people that breed bandogs do so for protection or security applications, severa animal agression in my opinion takes away the focus of a good guard dog. I doubt too many people over seas where it is illegal want to breed bandogs for the pit, it's pointless the apbt is king and pound for pound the best canine gladiator get what I mean?


No I here you .. I am just not one who appreciates crossing breeds to already established breeds. It doesn't take much to ruin good dogs and good bloodlines. I respect this breed and the creators too much to destroy the work that went into the foundation laid for us. I am just very passionate about that. I know at one point all breeds have been out bred in the beginning. Nothing wrong with guard dogs but there are dogs who were bred for that very purpose and well suited for guard/protection work. The apbt was not one of them.


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## davidfitness83

True not many breeds survived like the apbt. The show world and bybing did a number on most guard breeds. The apbt was preserved unlike most other breeds specially the mastiffs. Look at the Neo gsd English mastiff at an akc show they are uncapable of doing their original purpose. I am sure these show breeders can still get a spectrum of a throw back but I'm sure they fix it and ship it away lol my boy jimmy's staffy is the perfect example of a throw back at least in structure the little stick dynamite looks like an old school staff pit dog. Long legs, lean and not overly exaggerated like show staffies. Don't get me wrong for my purpose I would take a show staffy lol but it's just to point out how most breeds were morphed completely.


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## Firehazard

in general it IS pit mixes that bite people and get the large # of pitbull bite reports.. 

HOWEVER... Every short haird working breed as well as others, alaskan huskies have some dogmen that run a APBT influx in their dogs, the APBT is where most dogs get their drive and mental soundess even the labrador from a bullbiter X newfie.. way back when.

I don't agree with man aggressive APBTs.. BUT That doesnt mean I aint gonna create a 160lb bandog.. LOL The reality is that Im a hobbyist in genetics and I also need a large property guardian.. To protect my APBTs from getting stolen.

I agree thats a small % of fila, or generations down from selective and inbreeding practices then I could see that.. Yeah that looks like a giant man eating pitbull LOL look as APBT as the Chimera dogs, a little leaner.


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## davidfitness83

I don't k ow much about apbt peds but they said he has a lot of chinaman in the sire's side I believe. I gotta see if I can get the ped lol I don't know if the owner is willing to share but I will try to get it  that dog also lives with a frenchy and a little boy. They say he is a total submissive love bug with his family but hates strangers.


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## davidfitness83

My ideal bandog would be around 100-120 pounds 24 inches tall. I don't like a dog too tall or too heavy I will it will affect function and I can see a robber sneaking out through a window and the dog being too big to follow through it lol


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## SECD

French Creek Valley Gascons - Males
I want one of these mosters! I might even feed a few of my wife's house dogs to him.


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## Firehazard

^^ :rofl: seen one of them big azz hounds in Oklahoma about 15 yrs ago, down in the Kiamichi Mts.. Big and brave .. and a subartic nose.


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## SECD

Maybe he will trade me a pup for a pup lol. Although I would be on the losing end for about 500 buck I would do it in a second.


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## Lex'sFart

Sadie: Although fantastic that you have an opinion, to be so over anxious and speak so strongly in a thread based on a simple question by someone who has no plans of ever pursuing any breeding of any type makes your comment absurd. Especially if your comment was directed at me. 

Again there's nothing wrong with an opinion, but no one has "proposed" anything. After all my question is open to all even those who own mutts from shelters. It's almost as if your comment was meant for another thread.


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## Old_Blood

william williamson said:


> it was a dog,that had been loose on several occasions.
> 
> the owner was the type that when you complained about it,like going to his door,he would threaten to let the dog out on you.
> it was a manbiter,it roamed freely and he thought it was A friggin joke.
> well,the joke ended when he crawled over A 6' chainlink containment space for in heat dogs.
> when I opened the area he attacked me,while dragging A 1200.00 dog around.
> ask me if it hurt my feelings again.
> I am not the guy who tolerates his own dogs when they are HA.I've put down some dogs I really cared for.
> I have never had an accident on my yard due to negligence in regards to yard fights or out of breed lock ups.
> I have had yard fights,due to mechanical failures.collars loosing,I took to hair tying the flap ends.and inspecting them with the other things on the list.
> I had A list for food can check,bucket checks,axle checks,barrel checks,rotations for dogs,to not be with the same dog beside them constantly,kennel checks.my kennels were dug in,the bases concreted etc.
> I'm A construction worker. 25 years ago you'd have called it state of the art.
> I believe that everything you give your dog or do for them is returned,unconditionally and 10 fold.
> I also do not agree,and will not put up with pit mixes.
> folks won't blame the dobe and say A dobe pit mix.they'll say pit bull did this,pit bull did that.


It is still the owners fault. He shouldn't own a dog period imo, especially not a Doberman. I would have shot the dog right on the spot. I'm not trying to be mauled ever in my life.

I would have aborted the litter. I see no reason to let it go to term and wouldn't keep them. I think the responsible thing is to get rid of them.

I can't stand stupid owners and their loose dogs. They are supposed to be responsible, containment isn't difficult, most don't make an attempt and others are half ass. When the dog gets shot, poisoned, hit by a car or stuck in the pound it is the owner's fault but the dog who pays. The dog is doing what he or she knows.


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## Old_Blood

LadyRampage said:


> If a stray is running about following its nose, there is an irresponsible owner letting it do so. Its the responsiblity of owners to contain their dogs. I live in the middle of nowhere, nearest neighbor is a mile away. I do not allow ANY of my dogs to run free, EVER. I recently was taking care of a friends female, who came in heat and I didn't notice. I "dropped" off male, who was horribly skinny was found on the yard with her. 2 months later she has a litter of pups. In almost 15 years of having these dogs that is the FIRST time we had a opps litter involving a stray. The male was put down. We didn't look for the owners, because frankly people are horrible, it is not unusual for dogs to be dumped off out here in the country to starve because their owners can't be bothered to have them humanely put down. The litter is with the owners of the dam, I'm not sure what they will be doing with them but I can tell you I'd do exactly what William did and have them put down. I too don't agree with pit mixes or crosses because he's right, its not seen as whatever other breed is in it, its seen as a pit mix and I'm not adding to the ever growing problem of bad rap APBTs.


I never said anything to the contrary. Actually I said

*If it was owned by someone the should keep their damn dog contained! (loose dogs highly irritate me) irritate me)*

It's the owners fault. Not the dog. A dog will do what their instincts and will tell them. Breeding is a strong instinct for most.

Same experience, except, its not just dogs that are dumped off. It's residents too and doesn't matter if they life 1 to 1.5 miles away. They thinly it is their dogs given right to run free, but the dogs don't stay on the owners property.

Yes if its known to be a pit mix it doesn't matter. If it bites it will be blamed on the pit blood. Pit Bull attack, not a mixed breed attack. Of course when a Pit bites its the same out come. People need to think twice before they get a dog period and realize the liability of their unstable or HA. Too many people have an aggressive dog for the macho factor or its their beloved pet, they are either in denial or too ignorant to realize the dog will cross the line. I hate hearing the people who say he never did anything like this before, um no he didn't kill a kid before but he sure acted aggressive and unstable.


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## Old_Blood

I'm not against crossing breeds with a legit purpose. Like Alaskan Huskies, Lurchers and working terriers or hounds, ect (bandogs too). There are specialized breeds to fit most purposes but that doesn't make crossing wrong. Some people care about an excellent worker and are not breed purest. Dutch Shepherds today still may be crossed.



Sadie said:


> Yeah using apbt blood to create man biters that's highly intelligent .... it goes against everything the apbt was bred for. And then people wonder why our breed is in danger and why these mutts bite humans and the media thinks they are apbt's. I am not impressed by any apbt or apbt cross that is bred to attack/bite humans. There is nothing impressive about that.


Bandog breeding programs have nothing to do with why are breed is in danger. BSL and the fear of the APBT exist for a number of reasons and is a complex issue. The biggest problems the breed faces is popularity, irresponsible owners and ignorance (which leads to fear).

What you stated to me is no different then actual ignorant APBT owners who've say things like 
Using a springpole (or rather teaching your dog to attack and hold like that) makes them mean and its dogs like that who give Pits a bad name
Or chaining a Pit makes them mean and your dog is going to end up on the news. It's the reason why Pits are banned.

Dogs that bite are part of the problem, it is a legit reason. However responsibly kept bandogs ARE NOT part of the problem. They are not the dogs biting people, not the dogs making headlines. If one can responsibly keep a Fila, ect there is no reason why they can't keep a bandog. Now APBT x MASTIFF exist in the hands of irresponsible breeders and owners but those people are not breeding true bandogs which is a function and takes a lot of dedication. It's more than breeding 2 dogs together.


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## Lex'sFart

Old_Blood said:


> I'm not against crossing breeds with a legit purpose. Like Alaskan Huskies, Lurchers and working terriers or hounds, ect (bandogs too). There are specialized breeds to fit most purposes but that doesn't make crossing wrong. Some people care about an excellent worker and are not breed purest. Dutch Shepherds today still may be crossed.
> 
> Bandog breeding programs have nothing to do with why are breed is in danger. BSL and the fear of the APBT exist for a number of reasons and is a complex issue. The biggest problems the breed faces is popularity, irresponsible owners and ignorance (which leads to fear).
> 
> What you stated to me is no different then actual ignorant APBT owners who've say things like
> Using a springpole (or rather teaching your dog to attack and hold like that) makes them mean and its dogs like that who give Pits a bad name
> Or chaining a Pit makes them mean and your dog is going to end up on the
> news. It's the reason why Pits are banned.
> 
> Dogs that bite are part of the problem, it is a legit reason. However responsibly kept bandogs ARE NOT part of the problem. They are not the dogs
> biting people, not the dogs making headlines. If one can responsibly keep a Fila, ect there is no reason why they can't keep a bandog. Now APBT x MASTIFF exist in the hands of irresponsible breeders and owners but those
> people are not breeding true bandogs which is a function and takes a lot of
> dedication. It's more than breeding 2 dogs together.


Good post. Responsible bandog breeders are not the issue. Many bandog breeders respect the apbt, its history and therefore its sought after qualities. So when a good breeder with a goal and thus true purpose in mind uses the apbt in their program it's truly a credit to the breed.


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## Old_Blood

Not to mention them actually putting in the work. A trained dog is more reliable and far less of a liability. They can be verbally controlled, they will bite AND RELEASE on command.


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## Sadie

Old_Blood said:


> I'm not against crossing breeds with a legit purpose. Like Alaskan Huskies, Lurchers and working terriers or hounds, ect (bandogs too). There are specialized breeds to fit most purposes but that doesn't make crossing wrong. Some people care about an excellent worker and are not breed purest. Dutch Shepherds today still may be crossed.
> 
> Bandog breeding programs have nothing to do with why are breed is in danger. BSL and the fear of the APBT exist for a number of reasons and is a complex issue. The biggest problems the breed faces is popularity, irresponsible owners and ignorance (which leads to fear).
> 
> What you stated to me is no different then actual ignorant APBT owners who've say things like
> Using a springpole (or rather teaching your dog to attack and hold like that) makes them mean and its dogs like that who give Pits a bad name
> Or chaining a Pit makes them mean and your dog is going to end up on the news. It's the reason why Pits are banned.
> 
> Dogs that bite are part of the problem, it is a legit reason. However responsibly kept bandogs ARE NOT part of the problem. They are not the dogs biting people, not the dogs making headlines. If one can responsibly keep a Fila, ect there is no reason why they can't keep a bandog. Now APBT x MASTIFF exist in the hands of irresponsible breeders and owners but those people are not breeding true bandogs which is a function and takes a lot of dedication. It's more than breeding 2 dogs together.


Yeah and your forgetting to mention the fact that the majority of pet owner's are highly irresponsible. For every good owner I can easily show you 20 bad owners. Apbt's are not protection dogs there is no need to use them to create man bitter's as stated there are many other breeds designed and engineered for protection/guard work. There is a big difference in toy drive and an apbt or apbt cross actually attacking a human. If most people had control of their dogs and bred and cared for them responsibly this wouldn't be an issue but the reality is there are far too many bad owners and not enough good ones.


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## davidfitness83

I believe the thread starter just wanted to see pics, I don't think this has to turn into another debate. 

People will do whatever they want with their dogs, we can educate about breeding practices but being pure bred doesn't guarantee any less deffects than a cross. Every breed has man biters but a good breeder will cull to get rid of that flaw. Being the fact apbt cannot be fought puts them into the same category of a weight pull dog or a hunting dog in this time and age. No different than what a cross is capable of competing in llegaly in this country.


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## davidfitness83

Old_Blood said:


> I'm not against crossing breeds with a legit purpose. Like Alaskan Huskies, Lurchers and working terriers or hounds, ect (bandogs too). There are specialized breeds to fit most purposes but that doesn't make crossing wrong. Some people care about an excellent worker and are not breed purest. Dutch Shepherds today still may be crossed.
> 
> Bandog breeding programs have nothing to do with why are breed is in danger. BSL and the fear of the APBT exist for a number of reasons and is a complex issue. The biggest problems the breed faces is popularity, irresponsible owners and ignorance (which leads to fear).
> 
> What you stated to me is no different then actual ignorant APBT owners who've say things like
> Using a springpole (or rather teaching your dog to attack and hold like that) makes them mean and its dogs like that who give Pits a bad name
> Or chaining a Pit makes them mean and your dog is going to end up on the news. It's the reason why Pits are banned.
> 
> Dogs that bite are part of the problem, it is a legit reason. However responsibly kept bandogs ARE NOT part of the problem. They are not the dogs biting people, not the dogs making headlines. If one can responsibly keep a Fila, ect there is no reason why they can't keep a bandog. Now APBT x MASTIFF exist in the hands of irresponsible breeders and owners but those people are not breeding true bandogs which is a function and takes a lot of dedication. It's more than breeding 2 dogs together.


:goodpost::clap:


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## Sampsons Dad

I don't see a mix breed doiing any better than a Neo, dogo, or Rotti.
Not saying they are perfect but they are good guards in their own right.


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## Sampsons Dad

I would pitty the person that tried to come in to mess with my property.


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## davidfitness83

Sampsons Dad said:


> I don't see a mix breed doiing any better than a Neo, dogo, or Rotti.
> Not saying they are perfect but they are good guards in their own right.


Your dogs are from working stock, the lines of Neo you work with are serious lol. Your Dogos are also from working stock so there is no comparison you are correct. You know there are many people in the show scene breeding shy, fearful or unstable mastiffs. Your dogs are amongst the other few that get bred for the right reasons not to only loook pretty in a show ring. I think anyone that gets your dogs is lucky because they are getting the dog the way it was supossed to be.

I have my reservations with American Rotties but that is just me, any german breed I would rather get from their mother land not from here.


----------



## Sampsons Dad

Thank you....
I have to say, with regards to Rotti's, American dogs have terrible hips.


----------



## davidfitness83

Sampsons Dad said:


> Thank you....
> I have to say, with regards to Rotti's, American dogs have terrible hips.


I think they are too big in my opinion and they are also pretty unstable, I saw one at a Local parade it was trying to lunge at anything that moved near the owner. Maybe it was lack of training but pretty scary if you ask me lol


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## Firehazard

K9 trained German Rotts are ruthless; you can get a good one that acts like those APBTs that just stop when the whistle blows and is all about the work, but the ROTT has been bred for HA for so many years that IMO its the only dog I am ever rea leary of.
I love a well bred German Rott though.. wheeeewww.. You know no one is touching anyone without dealing with that dog.

well trained german rotties are just kickazz


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## davidfitness83

beautiful heel work and I believe he was getting outted from far away or was it because the decoy wasn't moving and the dog stopped? How much do you think that Dog weighs he looks perfect, very compact  Bernie had a German import puppy in his puppy social that thing was adorable.


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## k8nkane

That is such a gorgeous dog! So focused and happy the entire time.


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## Firehazard

Im guessin like 90-110 dunno but as you said, that dog is very balanced and a great example of what a rott should be.


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## Sadie

davidfitness83 said:


> I believe the thread starter just wanted to see pics, I don't think this has to turn into another debate.
> 
> People will do whatever they want with their dogs, we can educate about breeding practices but being pure bred doesn't guarantee any less deffects than a cross. Every breed has man biters but a good breeder will cull to get rid of that flaw. Being the fact apbt cannot be fought puts them into the same category of a weight pull dog or a hunting dog in this time and age. No different than what a cross is capable of competing in llegaly in this country.


And just as a good breeder will cull man bitter's a good breeder will also cull defects. The APBT will always be fought as long as there are 2 men and 2 bulldogs the APBT will continue to be fought that's never going to change no matter what people say or where they reside. Drugs are illegal too you think that has ever stopped anyone in this country from dealing them? The OP asked a question about crossing APBT blood into other breeds I am completely against it for the reasons already stated.


----------



## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> And just as a good breeder will cull man bitter's a good breeder will also cull defects. The APBT will always be fought as long as there are 2 men and 2 bulldogs the APBT will continue to be fought that's never going to change no matter what people say or where they reside. Drugs are illegal too you think that has ever stopped anyone in this country from dealing them? The OP asked a question about crossing APBT blood into other breeds I am completely against it for the reasons already stated.


I agree that's why so many poor dogs are put down everytime their yards are raided. it's a shame these dogs have to die...


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## Firehazard

hell froze over.......... ya'll just agreed on something! LOL clownin...


----------



## Sadie

davidfitness83 said:


> I agree that's why so many poor dogs are put down everytime their yards are raided. it's a shame these dogs have to die...


It's a shame they have to die but they are killed not because they are fighting dogs but because Peta & the HSUS hates our breed and will go to any extent to destroy our dogs. How sad a man's whole yard and years of dedicated work destroyed because of hate and ignorance. I sure hope the HSUS is finally brought to justice for what they did to this man and his dogs.

Is HSUS more Guilty than Boudreaux, Court finds them 'not' Guilty | Pet Defense


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## davidfitness83

I read about it and they def broke the law they didnt give time for the investigation to take place and destroyed his dogs. 

The conclusion is that a fighting dog will be put down by law enforcement because the practice is illegal. That sums it up, you can't have a fighting dog without game testing or it's just a paper champ. To breed a dog and call it a gamedog you have to break law, if your yard gets raided and you have these then they are all going to die because it's the law. Whether or Mary, Green Lantern or Superman wrote the law that is a different discussion, the point is if you breed gamedogs you are risking loosing their lifes if you get caught.


----------



## davidfitness83

Firehazard said:


> hell froze over.......... ya'll just agreed on something! LOL clownin...


ha- I agreed on culling deffects I think a Labradoodle breeder can partially agree on that too lol


----------



## Firehazard

Na.. one can obtain true game bred dogs that have been tested outside the country.. As Stratton said, one can not support dog matching and still create match dogs by obtaining dogs that have been proven and from the dogmen that will obtain them and prove them.


----------



## Sadie

That's why the smart ones are no longer dealing with the general public and closed their yards and inner circles and they are keeping hand written pedigrees instead of registering their dogs with the ADBA or any other registry. If your breeding game dogs in this country you are taking a risk for sure but to some that risk is minimal. You can also game test a dog without betting on him/her for money just to look at the dog beforehand and see if it's WORTH breeding you don't have to box a dog for money to game test it . But all in all if you enjoy your freedom you will stay away from the box and the sport all together.


----------



## Sadie

Firehazard said:


> Na.. one can obtain true game bred dogs that have been tested outside the country.. As Stratton said, one can not support dog matching and still create match dogs by obtaining dogs that have been proven and from the dogmen that will obtain them and prove them.


That's right homie! When are we going to Mexico? LMAO!! We need to pick up some of those 2XW OTC slates


----------



## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> But all in all if you enjoy your freedom you will stay away from the box and the sport all together.


:goodpost:

By the way I never mentioned money in gametesting that's like a try out for the varsity team lol


----------



## Sadie

I am just putting it out there. Some people don't match dogs for money they just want to know before they breed their bulldogs they are WORTH breeding so they game test them to make sure they aren't breeding curs. It's just another way of looking at your dogs without taking them to the actual show LMAO!!


----------



## Old_Blood

Sadie said:


> Yeah and your forgetting to mention the fact that the majority of pet owner's are highly irresponsible. For every good owner I can easily show you 20 bad owners. Apbt's are not protection dogs there is no need to use them to create man bitter's as stated there are many other breeds designed and engineered for protection/guard work. There is a big difference in toy drive and an apbt or apbt cross actually attacking a human. If most people had control of their dogs and bred and cared for them responsibly this wouldn't be an issue but the reality is there are far too many bad owners and not enough good ones.


I'm not forgetting that at all. Actually I said.....

*The biggest problems the breed faces is popularity, irresponsible owners and ignorance (which leads to fear).*

I didn't say exactly what you said but I did say irresponsible owners. I agree that most are such and they have a huge negative impact, especially on this breed. Popularity + irresponsible owners equals most owners being irresponsible, ignorant and careless. Though these people and the bandog breeders do not correlate. Just as the responsible APBT owners and breeders are not at fault for the breed's state nor share the weight of blame for the bad choices made by the less responsible.

I agree there are plenty of choices other than bandogs. I'm going to likely continue choose one of those myself 9 out of 10 times. I'm very satisfied with the Cacausian Ovcharka's guarding ability and high defense drive. Though I can understand the appeal of some of the bandogs in temperament and certain breeds like the Cane Corso, Presa Canario (which I don't own) and Boerboel are honestly bandogs of sorts. I find CC personality to be similar to the Boxer and APBT but alert and territorial having some prey drive still.

There are Pit x mastiff which are poorly bred, socialized, handled, ect but I don't put these dogs of random breeders in the same category as a true bandog breeder. Just another ignorant person carelessly breeding a potentially deadly dog. But the good breeders are not part of the problem even if what they do isn't agreed with.

It should also be noted that it is the dogmen who supply the game dogs to the bandog breeding programs.

Also the APBT x Boerboel in South Africa I spoke of are being used on game/animals (very successfully) not man. While there exist "breeds for everything" they seem to be exceptional or above ability compared to pure Boerboel in this particular instance.

And the media with the dogs in the Whipple case few mentioned they were Presa/mastiff crosses but many said Presa Canario and even "Canary Island Fighting Dog". It was a tragedy but a lot of the media seemed to want to demonize the PC breed. They add to fear and of course give appeal to the wrong people.

I will say if you can handle a Presa then you can handle a Presa/Pit. Most pet owners are not suited for either breed. A lot of PC are in rescue because their owners couldn't handle them. Once they got bigger without training they got dumped. They fight other dogs, kill animals and growl at everyone. It's too bad there are so many irresponsible owners for the sake of the dogs.


----------



## Firehazard

Sadie, Im working on it.. :rofl:


----------



## junkyard

Just remember, a "gamedog" and a "gamebred" dog are two different things.

Truth is the Apbt on its own can and will be as good as any protection dog in the right hands, i dont think its producing manbiters at all .
I dont agree with it because there are other dogs that are more suited to the job, because they have been specifically bred for the role. 
Swinford stuffed it up for everyone when he never explained his program in depth now everyone thinks they can whack a mastiff and an apbt together and have the ultimate dog. Truth is the swinford dogs were not all that great with the total numbers he produced there were realy only two that were uniform and realy decent at the role. He even matched a couple and they got whipped. He never finished what he was doing because e he wasnt happy with the end result. 
People are too caught up on the "dream" and the "ideal" of what Swinford done and not at what his end result was before he died to early and the end result was...well sub par.

The reason APBT should not be used for the role is because in they eyes of the general public they allready are the worst breed in the world for attacking people regardless of the truth and to promote them as a protection dog or a gaurd dog will only tarnish the breed further.
Why would you want a APBT for protection work when you can have a breed thats entire history has been tied up in the role, and not a breed thats reputation could be further damaged everytime another gets used for that job.


----------



## Sadie

junkyard said:


> Just remember, a "gamedog" and a "gamebred" dog are two different things.
> 
> The reason APBT should not be used for the role is because in they eyes of the general public they allready are the worst breed in the world for attacking people regardless of the truth and to promote them as a protection dog or a gaurd dog will only tarnish the breed further.
> 
> Why would you want a APBT for protection work when you can have a breed thats entire history has been tied up in the role, and not a breed thats reputation could be further damaged everytime another gets used for that job.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


----------



## dixieland

junkyard said:


> Just remember, a "gamedog" and a "gamebred" dog are two different things.
> 
> Truth is the Apbt on its own can and will be as good as any protection dog in the right hands, i dont think its producing manbiters at all .
> I dont agree with it because there are other dogs that are more suited to the job, because they have been specifically bred for the role.
> Swinford stuffed it up for everyone when he never explained his program in depth now everyone thinks they can whack a mastiff and an apbt together and have the ultimate dog. Truth is the swinford dogs were not all that great with the total numbers he produced there were realy only two that were uniform and realy decent at the role. He even matched a couple and they got whipped. He never finished what he was doing because e he wasnt happy with the end result.
> People are too caught up on the "dream" and the "ideal" of what Swinford done and not at what his end result was before he died to early and the end result was...well sub par.
> 
> The reason APBT should not be used for the role is because in they eyes of the general public they allready are the worst breed in the world for attacking people regardless of the truth and to promote them as a protection dog or a gaurd dog will only tarnish the breed further.
> Why would you want a APBT for protection work when you can have a breed thats entire history has been tied up in the role, and not a breed thats reputation could be further damaged everytime another gets used for that job.


:goodpost:


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

At jk great post!!!!

At whoever said an am bulldog has apbt blood... Yes several years ago like twenty... You will hardly find any in a 7 gen now and if you do it's a mutt too since they're their own breed now...


----------



## PatienceFlame

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> I'm not a mix fan especially with this breed... Too much negativity already without mixes...


 :goodpost::goodpost:
gonna have to agree here.


----------



## Old_Blood

Yup junkyard! An APBT isn't a protection breed, like you said you can get a breed that is. I ask myself why do people get a Rottweiler to fight it. Why do they get a Lab mix to hunt (not retrieve but actually think the dog will point and be mad that he don't). Get the breed of dog that fits the job. Simple as that. APBT excel at many things, admit not everything, but you still make a choice of what you want to do with the dog. SAR, therapy work, ect is more combat to BSL.


----------



## Sadie

Lex'sFart said:


> Sadie: Although fantastic that you have an opinion, to be so over anxious and speak so strongly in a thread based on a simple question by someone who has no plans of ever pursuing any breeding of any type makes your comment absurd. Especially if your comment was directed at me.
> 
> Again there's nothing wrong with an opinion, but no one has "proposed" anything. After all my question is open to all even those who own mutts from shelters. It's almost as if your comment was meant for another thread.


*Favorite Pit/Bully Breed Crosses* ... That was the topic my answer was very simple leave established breeds alone. You want a mutt? go to the shelter and adopt plenty of them in the shelter to choose from. I am tired of people trying to mess around with this breed using the APBT name to market their trash. I am sorry you don't have to like it but it is what it is. It's offensive to people who are fighting to protect and preserve these dogs. My comments are completely relevant to this thread. I don't agree with crossing breeds. I am strongly against it wether you proposed it or not you suggested the topic and I answered it my favorite APBT X Bully breed cross is NO cross at all and gave you my reasons.


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

Yep yep tara


----------



## davidfitness83

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> At jk great post!!!!
> 
> At whoever said an am bulldog has apbt blood... Yes several years ago like twenty... You will hardly find any in a 7 gen now and if you do it's a mutt too since they're their own breed now...


It doesn't matter if it was 10 years ago or 20 the breed make up still apbt. I can find you the percentages if you'd like lol the bottom line is that you suggested American bulldogs for protection, if you read up on the history of the American bulldog reconstruction you will find exactly how much apbt blood they used. What is the difference of that and someone breeding a bandog now? They are both mixing apbt blood and you can breed 6 generations of bandog and claim the same statement you made about the blood being introduced way back. Cane corsos were also infused with apbt blood and I also hear whispers of malinois having apbt blood too. Nobody is saying that the apbt will add protection traits, it will bring something totally different to the table that a modern mastiff lacks. If you crop an americAn bulldog the ignorant will argue it is a apbt.


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

I agree and have issues with it all.... Bottom line I have all the percentages I am knowledgeable in the am bulldog as I am the apbt... The percentage isn't that high anymore and it was close to even a 50/50.... Point is mixes TODAY are just that mutts and there's no need when there is a breed for everything already established... Not to mention that screwing with an already perfect breed that also happens to have reP issues is just stupid if done by those who claim to love the breed but create more mutts to cause more bad rap... Bandogs IMHO are a different story altogether...


----------



## Lex'sFart

Sadie said:


> *Favorite Pit/Bully like it but it is what it is. It's offensive to people who are fighting to protect and preserve these dogs. My comments are completely relevant to this thread. I don't agree with crossing breeds. I am strongly against it wether you proposed it or not you suggested the topic and I answered it my favorite APBT X Bully breed cross is NO cross at all and gave you my reasons.*


*

Yes and that being the question if you dont have one then dont reply. Its quite simple really.

Theres nothing wrong with my question. And Im sure there are many on the site with crosses. Alot of those being from shelters. i want for those folks to participate . You see those dogs exist and thats what the question was about. Those folks dont need a lecture nor do I. You may have some valid points. But dont use my thread as an excuse to tout your heroic crusade. Since theres no villain here and the question much too simplistic..*


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

Other side of the point being that if most of them didn't exist it would cut down on the issues the apbt faces.... A mutt is a mutt that's it... If one loves their mutt better for the dog... But there's no real reason anyone could give that makes it ok to cross any two established breeds... There are enough designer breeds to make someones head spin leave well enough alone already...


----------



## Sadie

Lex'sFart said:


> Yes and that being the question if you dont have one then dont reply. Its quite simple really.
> 
> Theres nothing wrong with my question. And Im sure there are many on the site with crosses. Alot of those being from shelters. i want for those folks to participate . You see those dogs exist and thats what the question was about. Those folks dont need a lecture nor do I. You may have some valid points. But dont use my thread as an excuse to tout your heroic crusade. Since theres no villain here and the question much too simplistic..


Come again? You don't get to dictate who posts and who doesn't .... I can say whatever the heck I want on this thread this is a public forum if you can't handle the opinions of others you shouldn't post period. I gave my opinions just like everyone else you don't have to like them but they are very much valid and some have even agreed with me. I don't care if you like my opinions they are my opinions so deal with it. And if you can't deal with the opinions of other members ... I can gladly close this thread for you and advise you not to post asking for opinions if you can't handle the responses from other members. I never said there was anything wrong with your ? I don't agree with crossing breeds go back and read everything I stated. Just because people cross established breeds for their own selfish reasons doesn't make it right or acceptable. People do what they want to with these dogs and as a result we have a ton of issues with our breed get a clue. I am all for the betterment of breeds and breeding responsibly the APBT was bred for the box not to protect humans as stated several times already there are other breeds that exist and have been bred for guard and protection work there is no need to use APBT blood to create a guard dog as it goes against the very core of their purpose. And if one of those crosses attacks or bites a human in defense guess what? The media won't call it a bandog/Mutt/Cross Breed they will say an APBT did it. And your GD right I have a problem with that the right/privilege to own my dogs is in jeopardy because of foolishness. What some clown does in his back yard effects our entire breed and all those responsible owners who value the right to still own these great dogs freely without any restrictions. Not to mention those of us who are fighting for them diligently with BSL just to be able to keep the dogs we have now. It's sad that the image of this breed is tarnished because of idiot owners how does it help the breed for the media and public to see a dog who appears to have APBT blood in it attacking a human? They already label our dogs man killers yet you want me to be ok with breeding APBT blood into other breeds for human protection? Get real!


----------



## william williamson

ya'll with your mix breed pits,you ride them to your ego and glory.
and those of us strict pit handlers,we get to ride ours to the friggin gates of He!!.
why?
becaus you mix the blood,you promote the pit side,as if,you puppy mill them,you attach A well mannered spirited dog to an unruly manbiter,you exploit even deeper the tenacity for which they are so well known for.you sell dogs,to anyone who thinks they can manage it,they can't,the man biter side takes over,the pit bull tennacity,irons out the desire to finish,the people you sold it to call and say WTF,this dog just attacked someone for no reason,your reply,it must be the pit in it.
and who put the pit in it? your dumb as$.
don't let me see you at the gates of He!!,O thats right you won't be there you'll be in the glory of mixed mutt heaven.
shove that mix,all the way with A red hot poker.
when,WHENit bites someone or kills someone I hope its within the walls of your home,and you bury A family member.
don't make others suffer your ignorance.


----------



## Sadie

AMEN WILLIAM PREACH !!!


----------



## Lex'sFart

Sadie said:


> Come again? You don't get to dictate who posts and who doesn't .... I can say whatever the heck I want on this thread this is a public forum if you can't handle the opinions of others you shouldn't post period. I gave my opinions just like everyone else you don't have to like them but they are very much valid and some have even agreed with me. I don't care if you like my opinions they are my opinions so deal with it. And if you can't deal with the opinions of other members ... I can gladly close this thread for you and advise you not to post asking for opinions if you can't handle the responses from other members. I never said there was anything wrong with your ? I don't agree with crossing breeds go back and read everything I stated. Just because people cross established breeds for their own selfish reasons doesn't make it right or acceptable. People do what they want to with these dogs and as a result we have a ton of issues with our breed get a clue. I am all for the betterment of breeds and breeding responsibly the APBT was bred for the box not to protect humans as stated several times already there are other breeds that exist and have been bred for guard and protection work there is no need to use APBT blood to create a guard dog as it goes against the very core of their purpose. And if one of those crosses attacks or bites a human in defense guess what? The media won't call it a bandog/Mutt/Cross Breed they will say an APBT did it. And your GD right I have a problem with that the right/privilege to own my dogs is in jeopardy because of foolishness. What some clown does in his back yard effects our entire breed and all those responsible owners who value the right to still own these great dogs freely without any restrictions. Not to mention those of us who are fighting for them diligently with BSL just to be able to keep the dogs we have now. It's sad that the image of this breed is tarnished because of idiot owners how does it help the breed for the media and public to see a dog who appears to have APBT blood in it attacking a human? They already label our dogs man killers yet you want me to be ok with breeding APBT blood into other breeds for human protection? Get real!


Oh Im not saying you cant post in my thread Im just saying why waste your time writing long paragraphs if you dont have an interest in mixes. Seems quite silly


----------



## davidfitness83

I am sure you guys have seen the Chimera program I wouldn't call what he is doing wrong. I don't hear him calling his dogs pit mixes or marketing his dogs as Big pits to get customers. 

Mixing blood like this is not a game and it is not something everyone should do for the hell of it. I think breeders like Chimera, Mason Family Bandogs do it for a purpose not for looks. Even Lee from Chimera says he breeds for function he doesn't care at all about looks.

The Olde English bulldog was also revived and they used APBT blood to bring it back to life. If someone can improve a breed by cross breeding why not? As long as they don't pull a ghetto move and call their dogs APBT I don't see the harm. Now if someone is out in the streets flaunting a man biter calling it a pit then yes I also have a problem with that.


----------



## Lex'sFart

Sadie said:


> Come again? You don't get to dictate who posts and who doesn't .... I can say whatever the heck I want on this thread this is a public forum if you can't handle the opinions of others you shouldn't post period. I gave my opinions just like everyone else you don't have to like them but they are very much valid and some have even agreed with me. I don't care if you like my opinions they are my opinions so deal with it. And if you can't deal with the opinions of other members ... I can gladly close this thread for you and advise you not to post asking for opinions if you can't handle the responses from other members. I never said there was anything wrong with your ? I don't agree with crossing breeds go back and read everything I stated. Just because people cross established breeds for their own selfish reasons doesn't make it right or acceptable. People do what they want to with these dogs and as a result we have a ton of issues with our breed get a clue. I am all for the betterment of breeds and breeding responsibly the APBT was bred for the box not to protect humans as stated several times already there are other breeds that exist and have been bred for guard and protection work there is no need to use APBT blood to create a guard dog as it goes against the very core of their purpose. And if one of those crosses attacks or bites a human in defense guess what? The media won't call it a bandog/Mutt/Cross Breed they will say an APBT did it. And your GD right I have a problem with that the right/privilege to own my dogs is in jeopardy because of foolishness. What some clown does in his back yard effects our entire breed and all those responsible owners who value the right to still own these great dogs freely without any restrictions. Not to mention those of us who are fighting for them diligently with BSL just to be able to keep the dogs we have now. It's sad that the image of this breed is tarnished because of idiot owners how does it help the breed for the media and public to see a dog who appears to have APBT blood in it attacking a human? They already label our dogs man killers yet you want me to be ok with breeding APBT blood into other breeds for human protection? Get real!


Oh Im not saying you cant post in my thread Im just saying why waste your time writing long paragraphs if you dont have an interest in mixes. Seems quite silly


----------



## Sadie

I am not waisting my time I am educating my passion and love for these dogs is far greater than you may ever be able to understand. But when someone put's my dogs in jeopardy that's when I have the right and a duty to speak up. You may not see anything wrong with mixing breeds but I sure as heck do and I am not going to stay tight lipped about it either when it's a fact that the majority of pitbull attacks are not APBT's they are MUTT'S/MIXES !!! People will always do what they want to with these dogs regardless but believe me there are other's who are reading this thread learning from it. Knowledge is power some people really do care about these dogs and those are the ones I am speaking out to.


----------



## Sadie

davidfitness83 said:


> I am sure you guys have seen the Chimera program I wouldn't call what he is doing wrong. I don't hear him calling his dogs pit mixes or marketing his dogs as Big pits to get customers.
> 
> Mixing blood like this is not a game and it is not something everyone should do for the hell of it. I think breeders like Chimera, Mason Family Bandogs do it for a purpose not for looks. Even Lee from Chimera says he breeds for function he doesn't care at all about looks.
> 
> The Olde English bulldog was also revived and they used APBT blood to bring it back to life. If someone can improve a breed by cross breeding why not? As long as they don't pull a ghetto move and call their dogs APBT I don't see the harm. Now if someone is out in the streets flaunting a man biter calling it a pit then yes I also have a problem with that.


David my issue is with irresponsible owner's/breeder's I respect any good working kennel the problem is if by chance one of these dogs bites or attacks a human it adds fuel to the fire as stated any dog that even resembles a pit bull will be called just that the APBT will take the hit for it if one of these bandogs kills or bites a human not the bandog. Our dogs are already considered human killers, baby killers. This is what the media and the general public believes about this breed. So it doesn't look good for an APBT to ever be associated with any type of human attack the image of this breed can't afford it. We are working as a community to dispel these myths/lies about our breed being human aggressive monsters and for every bit of progress we make these type of cross breeds set us one step back when some idiot screws up. Why do we need more protection breeds ? We have some of the finest protection dog breeds already existing doing what they do best and excel better than any other breed or cross why? Because they were bred for that very purpose just as the APBT was bred for it's purpose the box. If you want to improve on those already existing working breeds than do it through selective breeding and culling not out breeding.

That's like me wanting to take a german shepherd to cross it with an APBT to make it a better box dog! Why would I do that? when the APBT already excels @ the sport better than any other breed alive and why do they excel? because they have been selectively bred for it since the very beginning.


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

And I will say it again.... There are enough breeds established in the world today that there is a dog for everything and for every person... This is just another way the human race proves itself so selfish. If a farmer cross breeds for work on his farm and always keeps every puppy and never sells one dog and his dogs never end up in a shelter then by all means do what you want its their right BUT we are talking people who cross the apbt with some mastiff or chi or whatever and give it a different name and advertise all of its "bad' traits giving credit to the "pit" in it... I mean really? You cross a chi with a pit and say the pit in it bit someone? You cross a dane with a pit and say the pit in it bit someone? you cross a lab and a pit and well you see where I am going... 

The "pit in it" will always be blamed because for one most owners dont even know what they own... for two the public doesnt know anything about the breed other than what our oh so knowledgeable media teaches them... Heck I have seen crosses of two breeds and neither of them a bully breed and the pups could pass for pit mixes especially to an untrained eye... 

How about just leave this breed alone and go breed something else to death?


----------



## Sadie

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> How about just leave this breed alone and go breed something else to death?


 Best darn sentence in this thread LOL :goodpost::clap: Leave the APBT alone! Go screw up another breed.


----------



## Lex'sFart

william williamson said:


> ya'll with your mix breed pits,you ride them to your ego and glory.
> and those of us strict pit handlers,we get to ride ours to the friggin gates of He!!.
> why?
> becaus you mix the blood,you promote the pit side,as if,you puppy mill them,you attach A well mannered spirited dog to an unruly manbiter,you exploit even deeper the tenacity for which they are so well known for.you sell dogs,to anyone who thinks they can manage it,they can't,the man biter side takes over,the pit bull tennacity,irons out the desire to finish,the people you sold it to call and say WTF,this dog just attacked someone for no reason,your reply,it must be the pit in it.
> and who put the pit in it? your dumb as$.
> don't let me see you at the gates of He!!,O thats right you won't be there you'll be in the glory of mixed mutt heaven.
> shove that mix,all the way with A red hot poker.
> when,WHENit bites someone or kills someone I hope its within the walls of your home,and you bury A family member.
> don't make others suffer your ignorance.


 Not sure where this "ya'll" and "your" you speak of is coming from since Im quite certain most of the folks in this thread arent mixing anything and most who own a mixed breed recieved it as a rescue. Most are debating over dogs/breeds they dont own. 
So are u saying these poor folks who rescued a mix are ignorant? Or worse yet may end up dead.

Some of these posts are so wrought with anger yet the topic far from warrants it.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

When you defend mixing this breed for protection the anger is well warranted especially when there are many people on this very forum that spend their entire lives protecting this breed like me...


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## Sadie

We are angry because these PIT MIXES are the cause of all our issues with BSL when a mutt attacks if it even so much as looks like a pitbull to them it's a pitbull it doesn't matter if it's a mutt!!!! When someone takes away the right to own your breed of choice or puts restrictions on it than maybe you will get why we have a problem with this post.


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## davidfitness83

Can anyone show me a short hair breed that can actually work and protect that is not influenced by the APBT and that has not been ruined in this country please?

I can get a dobie, rottie from Germany but I am talking about in the USA where can you find a decent example of the breed that has not been ruined by the show world. I found a needle in a hay stack with a working boxer breeder but come on seriously speaking I hate fur I don't like to see clouds of dog fur all over my home. I am not taking a gamgle with an American Bred rottie or Doberman so what else is left?


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## Sadie

What's wrong with American Bred Dobbies and Rotties I am sure you have some good breeder's out there that haven't been tainted by the show mommies. LOL You have cats they shed hahahaha .. Seriously though police officers use German Shepherds in this country I am not sure if they import them from Germany though. I am sure you have some great working American Stock you just have to search for it just like with any breed there are always garbage breeders to weed through before you get to the good ones.


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## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> We are angry because these PIT MIXES are the cause of all our issues with BSL when a mutt attacks if it even so much as looks like a pitbull to them it's a pitbull it doesn't matter if it's a mutt!!!! When someone takes away the right to own your breed of choice or puts restrictions on it than maybe you will get why we have a problem with this post.


I wouldn't generlize and say pit mixes are the only cause of BSL, when they raid dog yards and they find footage of dog fights I am sure that has a lot to do with it too. If you don't agree then why are they being put down immediately, they don't even understand the dog is not supossed to be human agressive, but because it was found in a fighting operation it's a wrap.

Law enforcement hears fighting dog and they don't give it a chance, they kill it, next time a dog mauls another dog in a neighborhood they find a threadmill or a spring pole and they put two and two together and deem the breed dangerous when it is only doing what it was bred for. If it wasn't for them raiding fighting yards and learning about all the tools used for conditioning anyone could own this stuff and animal control wouldn't come in to your home and think you are fighting your mutt because you have a flirtpole or because you run your dog in the e-mill when it rains or it's too cold out. Where do they learn about all this?

The apbt is not the only breed singled out, to be honest everyone hates on Bullies but the public or cops don't know any better. In their eyes the APBT BOXER DOGO PRESA CORSO STAFF AMSTAFF AMBULLDOG AMBULLY is all the same, so the APBT owners are not the only ones suffering or loosing their pets.


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## Lex'sFart

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> When you defend mixing this breed for protection the anger is well warranted especially when there are many people on this very forum that spend their entire lives protecting this breed like me...


Reread. His post implied ownership of or breeding of mixed breed dogs.And that we're ignorant because of it, wrong on both accounts as I dont breed and clearly dont want to whether for protection or otherwise. Again if most of us own a mix its more then likely from a shelter, in which case hes barking up the wrong tree


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## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> What's wrong with American Bred Dobbies and Rotties I am sure you have some good breeder's out there that haven't been tainted by the show mommies. LOL You have cats they shed hahahaha .. Seriously though police officers use German Shepherds in this country I am not sure if they import them from Germany though. I am sure you have some great working American Stock you just have to search for it just like with any breed there are always garbage breeders to weed through before you get to the good ones.


Couple of months ago a cop came over to my home to help my mom when they lost her wallet at a local wholesale club and was filling a report for her. The officer was a k-9 cop, I asked him where Edison Township gets their dogs from, he said they are all imported from Serbia. He said they don't bother with American dogs because they are too big, they have bad structures and lack the right temperament.

A month ago when I went to the OFA clinic to get Bernie's hips done I met someone who is in a schutzund club, she had a 8 month GSD imported, she said she wouldn't bother using American GSD's. Americans like everything big and soft, this is why most of the examples of guarding breeds are long gone.

When you breed for looks only you ruin a breed you know that.


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## Firehazard

just found a line from stratton: so maybe just maybe its our breeding practices and maybe just maybe paper laws don't create better animals.



> "The burden of guilt from confining a dog was heavier in those days, as it was the general custom to allow all dogs to run free. (Bulldogs have always been, generally speaking, an exception to this rule. For that reason, they were known in Elizabethan times and earlier as "bandogs," which loosely translated means bound dog, or chain dogs.)


Sadie you and I were talking one day and I said something of the same sorts, technically they are all bandogs unless proven, then they are APBTs.. LOL Thought it to be ironice to conversation and to the fact that todays bandogges are a direct relation of the APBT or rather the pit bulldog from yesteryear. Tosa's, and many others used the pit bull terrier known as different names at different times, but all the same dog a pit bulldog was used to get drive and sound mentality. Although I wouldnt breed an APBT to another breed of dog, I don't snuff my nose at scientific breeders like Lee @ Chimera Kennels who are building a better bandog, an american bandog... After many of your posts back and forth you have answered the question for me I started on another post. Great Bandogges already exist, I will just collect 3 bandogs using the WHopper style bandog as my stud and I will probably order a gyp from chimera and mason family, but AS I STATED A LONG TIME AGO ON ANOTHER POST.. IF you breed a bandog and then breed it to be at its best you are simply gonna get a 55lbs bandog that more "game" than any whopper dog, LOL I've seen it done for years, breeding for game is more than breeding for drive and give you a smaller dog, you can breed for size but thats going to sacrifice game and agility.. Which is why the Tosa IMO is the best bandog of today, as well as the occasional whopper great big dogs with great balance and movement let alone a sound mind, all come from pit bulldogs. A quick scan through Seminics gladiator dogs or the world of fighting dogs and you will see just what I mean.

Why does AKC only test to see the parents of your dogDog DNA Test, Dog Breed Test - Wisdom Panel Canine DNA Testing when there are test like human DNA tests that will show every marker on the chain? OH YEAH!! Cause everything has pit bull in *almost* every working dog you can imagine has has the pit bull put in  American bird dogs, cur dogs, hounds, working huskies, all mastiffs and bandogs, dalmations are an ABPT reject, bostons, patterdales, etc come from inbreeding yesteryears lil pit dogs into their own seperate breeds.. the list is endless and no one wants to know their PURE bred lab started out with a pit bull and a newfie LOL


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## Sadie

davidfitness83 said:


> I wouldn't generlize and say pit mixes are the only cause of BSL, when they raid dog yards and they find footage of dog fights I am sure that has a lot to do with it too. If you don't agree then why are they being put down immediately, they don't even understand the dog is not supossed to be human agressive, but because it was found in a fighting operation it's a wrap.


Dog men don't have dog's getting out the yard killing humans and attacking other animals! They are responsible with this breed and know these dogs inside and out they are not the ones responsible for the issues that are going on or the bad breeding that occurs because they are breeding these dogs for the purpose in which they were intended they are not mixing them with anything else they are selectively breeding and working proven stock. The issues with BSL don't come from dog fighter's there is a very small percentage of dog fighter's breeding and matching dogs in this country and they are so low key and go about their own business. The thugs don't count those are just dip sticks trying to be tough those aren't real dog men. It's pet bull owners who are causing the problems with this breed when is the last time you saw a dog man on the news because his APBT mauled a human or a child to death? How many dog men do you know who take their APBT's to the dog park ? The only reason why these game dogs/ dog men are under the radar with the law is because PETA/HSUS want to destroy this breed they want it to be no more. They are going after anyone don't you see? If you own a APBT your just as guilty of dog fighting. If you own break sticks, or mills your a dog fighter. And let animal control show up and see your pitbull on a treadmill! None of us are safe people need to wake up and realize the truth. As long as you own bulldogs you will be labeled a dog fighter even if you never stepped foot in a dog fighting ring with your dog! It's irresponsible owner's who buy these dogs and don't have a clue what they really own.


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## davidfitness83

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> When you defend mixing this breed for protection the anger is well warranted especially when there are many people on this very forum that spend their entire lives protecting this breed like me...


I protect my dog too, he is a canine good citizen he took two classes and he is going for a third now. I didn't crop his ears or make him wear silly spike colllars, I always make sure to set him up for success and I socialized the heck out of him with people. He may not be an APBT but the public don't know any better. So this thread has nothing to do with not protecting your dog, it has to do with people's opinions on their favorite pit mixes. Not asking if people agree or disagree lol.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Well David welcome to a public forum and when an opinion is asked for and I have one to give you better bet your bottom dollar I will give it... I am not here to be liked I am here to educate people and this thread is worthless as it was created with the thought that mixing this breed any further is ok and ITS NOT!!!


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## SARGEnNIKITA

See there is a difference you protect YOUR DOG I spend everyday protecting not only my dogs but the rights of every other owner of this breed AND their dogs.... This is a huge difference


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## Firehazard

They use DNA tests to see if wild wolves have dog influx esspecially those killed for being human agressive and they look at the whole chain, not just matching codes to the parents, LOL thats a load of  Full DNA tests should be what the registeries use, I wanna see where they used a pit dog X a english pointer to get the southern bird dog a more rough species, or better yet see how close rotties and pitties actually are  bear biter ~ bull biter once the same dog they diverged in the 1800s and a lil before. IF you look at dieter Fliegs books you can see diagrams from old school dogs, hell they are all bandogs I gotta agree with stratton, LOL Proven [] dogs are APBTs, or dogs directly from proven parents  all others are just papered APBTs and really most APBT breeders practice bandog type ethics and not game dog type ethics..

I hope this was all clear......... Wanting to bring some clarity, you are both right just depends on the perception of dog breeding ethics. I don't think that ppl are ready to handle the truth..

STRATTON touches on the fact that [] tested dog and the time of gentlemen matching produced great family dogs and very lil man biters or HA dogs; compared to the breeding practices of APBT breeders now, with out the [] and now we have an epidemic of HA APBTs.


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## davidfitness83

Firehazard said:


> just found a line from stratton: so maybe just maybe its our breeding practices and maybe just maybe paper laws don't create better animals.
> 
> Sadie you and I were talking one day and I said something of the same sorts, technically they are all bandogs unless proven, then they are APBTs.. LOL Thought it to be ironice to conversation and to the fact that todays bandogges are a direct relation of the APBT or rather the pit bulldog from yesteryear. Tosa's, and many others used the pit bull terrier known as different names at different times, but all the same dog a pit bulldog was used to get drive and sound mentality. Although I wouldnt breed an APBT to another breed of dog, I don't snuff my nose at scientific breeders like Lee @ Chimera Kennels who are building a better bandog, an american bandog... After many of your posts back and forth you have answered the question for me I started on another post. Great Bandogges already exist, I will just collect 3 bandogs using the WHopper style bandog as my stud and I will probably order a gyp from chimera and mason family, but AS I STATED A LONG TIME AGO ON ANOTHER POST.. IF you breed a bandog and then breed it to be at its best you are simply gonna get a 55lbs bandog that more "game" than any whopper dog, LOL I've seen it done for years, breeding for game is more than breeding for drive and give you a smaller dog, you can breed for size but thats going to sacrifice game and agility.. Which is why the Tosa IMO is the best bandog of today, as well as the occasional whopper great big dogs with great balance and movement let alone a sound mind, all come from pit bulldogs. A quick scan through Seminics gladiator dogs or the world of fighting dogs and you will see just what I mean.
> 
> Why does AKC only test to see the parents of your dogDog DNA Test, Dog Breed Test - Wisdom Panel Canine DNA Testing when there are test like human DNA tests that will show every marker on the chain? OH YEAH!! Cause everything has pit bull in *almost* every working dog you can imagine has has the pit bull put in  American bird dogs, cur dogs, hounds, working huskies, all mastiffs and bandogs, dalmations are an ABPT reject, bostons, patterdales, etc come from inbreeding yesteryears lil pit dogs into their own seperate breeds.. the list is endless and no one wants to know their PURE bred lab started out with a pit bull and a newfie LOL


I even read somewhere the labs got a little rottie blood in there too lol. By the way what do you think of that book, I have been wanting to get it but I read some reviews on Amazon and people were hating on it. I really want to get a good book on gladiator breeds not only limited to the APBT though.


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## Firehazard

hahah ^^^ I spend everyday telling ppl they don't know what an APBT is.. LOL they what they think they know from TV is a load of  When I show them a stratton book or website that displays the full history ppl are shy to believe it as if it was fiction, LOL yeah and the holocaust never happened and in this country we didn't use ngger as proper english in writting and stories. PEOPLE NEED TO BE EDUCATED, thats the only way to spread the truth.

ME<< life long []bull terrier/bulldog advocate..


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## davidfitness83

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> See there is a difference you protect YOUR DOG I spend everyday protecting not only my dogs but the rights of every other owner of this breed AND their dogs.... This is a huge difference


When I go out in public and represent the umbrella breed in good light, I think It's something good for all the dogs. If I change someone's point of view then the example is talked about with other people than I am doing something more than just for my dog. My neighbors love my dog, the mail man, the eletric company person, the cable guy lol I think this is pretty good marketing and they can tell their friends they met a good pit lol

I may not go out there and protest in the street but I make sure I do a heck of marketing job with my dog everytime he meets a new person.


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## Firehazard

David, they are good books, people dont like what he says about APBTs which he's a lil off compared to the game dog men and authors, but his knowledge on bandogs and manstoppers is very extensive and these are great books to add to the collection.


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## Firehazard

Dieter Flieg, another author of collection...


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## Lex'sFart

Sadie said:


> We are angry because these PIT MIXES are the cause of all our issues with BSL when a mutt attacks if it even so much as looks like a pitbull to them it's a pitbull it doesn't matter if it's a mutt!!!! When someone takes away the right to own your breed of choice or puts restrictions on it than maybe you will get why we have a problem with this post.


the thing is Im quite calm and though I believe a bandog breeding program with a purpose is great, Im not very passionate about the subject. Since again I dont own or plan on owning a mixed breed and again Im not a breeder. So again its a bit rash touse exclamation points or talk of mutts killing people when Im truly not that taken by the subject. Its more of an issue when you cant think of a more calm diplomatic approach.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

davidfitness83 said:


> When I go out in public and represent the umbrella breed in good light, I think It's something good for all the dogs. If I change someone's point of view then the example is talked about with other people than I am doing something more than just for my dog. My neighbors love my dog, the mail man, the eletric company person, the cable guy lol I think this is pretty good marketing and they can tell their friends they met a good pit lol
> 
> I may not go out there and protest in the street but I make sure I do a heck of marketing job with my dog everytime he meets a new person.


And I never said you were a bad owner... But that is the stuff every owner should be doing... Far and few between will go above and beyond that... In my experience with you in discussion I do believe you are a good owner HOWEVER all owners should want and at least try to go above and beyond being just a good owner especially if they want to keep the right to own their dog because just like you said doesnt matter what your dog is the public sees a pit...


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## SARGEnNIKITA

And not you specifically but the problem with most owners who are in general good owners is that they only live in their own realm of things... In their mind BSL wont affect them because it is passed somewhere else but the reality is everytime a new city or county passes BSL type laws the easier it is for the next one to do it... People think oh I wont be affected and never change their ways or go above and beyond being a good owner and then freak out asking everyone to help when BSL is established in their city or county... Funny part these are the same people that will never go anywhere in their careers because the concept of above and beyond doesnt get applied to anything they do...


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## Sadie

Lex'sFart said:


> the thing is Im quite calm and though I believe a bandog breeding program with a purpose is great, Im not very passionate about the subject. Since again I dont own or plan on owning a mixed breed and again Im not a breeder. So again its a bit rash touse exclamation points or talk of mutts killing people when Im truly not that taken by the subject. Its more of an issue when you cant think of a more calm diplomatic approach.


I am as calm as day ... I have strong opinions and I have no reservations about expressing them. Personalities are different my friend I am not an extremist I am a fancier of the breed.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Lex'sFart said:


> the thing is Im quite calm and though I believe a bandog breeding program with a purpose is great, Im not very passionate about the subject. Since again I dont own or plan on owning a mixed breed and again Im not a breeder. So again its a bit rash touse exclamation points or talk of mutts killing people when Im truly not that taken by the subject. Its more of an issue when you cant think of a more calm diplomatic approach.


Maybe if you think this stuff doesnt affect you then you need to find a different breed? As I said in another post (but not in the same words) average owners should own average dogs and these are far from average dogs.... jmho


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## davidfitness83

I found this little diagram so people can take a chill pill on this whore pure breed thing. Our dogs descend from a lot of manbiters if you ask me lol


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## Firehazard

Stratton Stratton Stratton~ its the breeding practices without the [] test thats creating HA APBTs, and I believe that!

Yes it is pit bull mutts responcible for the dog bites that are labeled Pit BULL bites,, 
FUNNY because the CDC and insurance companies fall back on this "unless dogs are registered with a vet and the dogs papers and breed are notified by a licensed veterinarian it is impossible to disclose what breed of dog is responcible for the bite." 
What they say when a GSD or Police dog attacks a civillian.. LOL But if its a short haired mutt it a pit bull no questions, does that make sense?


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## Firehazard

Education, people need to know the CDC and they need to know insurance.. OR your not gonna be able to argue or debate with a city official or insurance rep. Gotta know how to serve people a nice warm glass of shut the hell up, or the battle against BSL and all is useless.. 

Gather the books, spread the knowledge.. Share the Love~ APBT


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## davidfitness83

Firehazard said:


> Stratton Stratton Stratton~ its the breeding practices without the [] test thats creating HA APBTs, and I believe that!
> 
> Yes it is pit bull mutts responcible for the dog bites that are labeled Pit BULL bites,,
> FUNNY because the CDC and insurance companies fall back on this "unless dogs are registered with a vet and the dogs papers and breed are notified by a licensed veterinarian it is impossible to disclose what breed of dog is responcible for the bite."
> What they say when a GSD or Police dog attacks a civillian.. LOL But if its a short haired mutt it a pit bull no questions, does that make sense?


The comment about breeding practices, is this because the dog is handled in the heat of a battle and this is where redirection can occur? any dog can bark, growl or resource guard. If I am not mistaken the [] test demonstrate that the dog can picked up right?


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## SARGEnNIKITA

And the apbt was specifically breed for a purpose several to be honest.... Two of those were human loyalty and the []... Each of the dogs on that chart were breed for a purpose.... the apbt was not breed for ha period...


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## Firehazard

Not just; but yeah, close... When a hot dog in deep in it, the last thing you want is its focus to redirect, they gotta know where they are at all times, and what the target is.


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## Sadie

Everyone knows that all breeds were out bred at some point along the way. I am not disputing that. I am talking about messing around with established breeds today that have been here for 100's of years. And furthermore it was never ok to have a flat out man bitter in the breeding program dog men culled them quick you had a few that did keep some (for selfish reasons) but it was not common practice. Again APBT= human friendly dog, All American family dog, you could break in the house and steal all my bulldogs and they wouldn't put up a fight. These dogs were bred to be human companions.


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## Firehazard

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> And the apbt was specifically breed for a purpose several to be honest.... Two of those were human loyalty and the []... Each of the dogs on that chart were breed for a purpose.... the apbt was not breed for ha period...


it is now! because of the lack of [] tested stock; I agree with Stratton on this subject.


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## davidfitness83

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> And the apbt was specifically breed for a purpose several to be honest.... Two of those were human loyalty and the []... Each of the dogs on that chart were breed for a purpose.... the apbt was not breed for ha period...


Lol it came from HA dogs even the bull baiting dogs had types for different purposes. guarding, butcher work, baiting. And before that the Alaunts that produced the bulldogs, mastinos.. You can't deny where these dogs came from, they just didn't appear out of nowhere magically came out without being HA. The dogmen did a hell of a job culling but like FH said you can't deny the influence of the fighting breeds in almost every breed we have now. Someone including apbt in the bandog program is not doing anything new..


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## Firehazard

WHIch is why I want a Gnarly bandogge! LOL I've had great dogs stollen, the sire to Hooch, Holts Jocko was belly mate to Tants Miss Jocko and was stolen and placed his whole life until stollen from me and disappearing into the whopper land of NE oklahoma. 

I will not have another APBT stollen cause I dont have a maneater.. I will have one who can hold a man still all day long..


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## SARGEnNIKITA

I dont think they are intentionally breed for ha even today I think the problem is bybs that dont care whether a dog is ha or not but breed it anyway... then the trait is passed on... which again boils down to irresponsible people...


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## Firehazard

boils down to the test and breeding ethics...


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## davidfitness83

Firehazard said:


> Not just; but yeah, close... When a hot dog in deep in it, the last thing you want is its focus to redirect, they gotta know where they are at all times, and what the target is.


Ok that is what I thought this is what makes it possible to create a non-HA breed. I know some dogs will redirect but then reallize they missed and as soon as they do know they made a mistake they let go. I am sure the ones that didn't went to sleep.

Do you think hog hunting can produce a similar test since you gotta rip the dog off the hog?


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Thats the problem is it should be different today especially since then there werent overflowing shelters killing millions of dogs a year.... Its just like the argument of the [] I dont find a purpose for it in todays society but it did exist and we came to have this breed because of it... dogs used to be breed for a purpose every dog but now they are breed for money...


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## Sadie

The point is dog men culled the crap out of HA dogs and there is a good darn reason they culled them! You can't possibly take a dog in the box that would bite you .. Dog men had to be able to control and handle these dogs at all times. There were a few that they let live but that was selfish and foolish. Most dog men culled HA dogs there was no if's and's or but's about that.


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## davidfitness83

What a nice little discussion we got here


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## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> The point is dog men culled the crap out of HA dogs and there is a good darn reason they culled them! You can't possibly take a dog in the box that would bite you .. Dog men had to be able to control and handle these dogs at all times. There were a few that they let live but that was selfish and foolish. Most dog men culled HA dogs there was no if's and's or but's about that.


it's also smarter to breed smaller dogs, you dont want to deal with a 80 pound redirecter lol


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## Sampsons Dad

As a kid I was able to meet some dog men and handle a couple really good apbt.
Loyalty was not a virtue the dogmen cared about since they bought, sold, and traded dogs often.


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## Sadie

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> I dont think they are intentionally breed for ha even today I think the problem is bybs that dont care whether a dog is ha or not but breed it anyway... then the trait is passed on... which again boils down to irresponsible people...


Amen to that some people know they have HA dogs and breed them anyway! Freaking Idiots. And then they peddle off the pups to green horn owner's and whoops the dog bites a human later on. Some dogs are just not right in the head and their owner's make excuses or don't have the balls to cull them.


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## Sampsons Dad

davidfitness83 said:


> it's also smarter to breed smaller dogs, you dont want to deal with a 80 pound redirecter lol


They also culled the quiters.
The currs would turn, quit and redirect.


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## Sadie

davidfitness83 said:


> it's also smarter to breed smaller dogs, you dont want to deal with a 80 pound redirecter lol


I hope I never have to deal with that .. I have a buddy who got the crap bit out of him at an ADBA show in Georgia. His dog redirected on him to get to another dog. And left a few scars to show for it. Little dog too but sometimes when they want at another dog bad enough there are some who will redirect and it's not pretty I saw it with my own eyes. Needless to say he doesn't have that dog anymore it went back to the breeder. It's not practical to have a redirector in the show ring or around kids.


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## Sampsons Dad

Sadie said:


> I hope I never have to deal with that .. I have a buddy who got the crap bit out of him at an ADBA show in Georgia. His dog redirected on him to get to another dog. And left a few scars to show for it. Little dog too but sometimes when they want at another dog bad enough there are some who will redirect and it's not pretty I saw it with my own eyes. Needless to say he doesn't have that dog anymore it went back to the breeder. It's not practical to have a redirector in the show ring or around kids.


I would have dug a hole for that dog.


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## Sadie

Well .. You know I can't speak for what the breeder did to the dog once he got it back I pretty sure it went night night LMAO!!!


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## Lex'sFart

Firehazard said:


> WHIch is why I want a Gnarly bandogge! LOL I've had great dogs stollen, the sire to Hooch, Holts Jocko was belly mate to Tants Miss Jocko and was stolen and placed his whole life until stollen from me and disappearing into the whopper land of NE oklahoma.
> 
> I will not have another APBT stollen cause I dont have a maneater.. I will have one who can hold a man still all day long..


And why the Bandog created. Agree with the breeding of bandogs or not, it cant be denied they bring something to the table that many of the current gaurd breeds (not all) and specifically many american bred molossers lack.


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## Lex'sFart

Sadie said:


> I am as calm as day ... I have strong opinions and I have no reservations about expressing them. Personalities are different my friend I am not an extremist I am a fancier of the breed.


We will have to agree to disagree but I'm glad we're friends.


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## Lex'sFart

Old_Blood said:


> I don't have pics ATM (should have them on my computer).
> 
> But I like working dogs and there have been some nice ones...
> 
> One was a Presa Canario x APBT protection dog
> 
> Then there are 2 working Boerboel x APBT in South Africa very nice dogs.


Btw any pics of the Boerboel x APBT ?


----------



## Firehazard

I used to think it was possible to [] test with a hog of stature about 200lbs and I watched an unnamed kennel in Sperry Oklahoma do this type of game testing. With a Pig killing eli dog, dog lved about 7 years maybe but was gr ch by 4yrs, and he was trained in [] against a hog. Not everyone is able to replicate this practice, some are and for those that are it works but they dont just throw a dog in on a hog, as you need a MEAN hog for one and a [] conditioned dog for two, and the breedin ethics of old. .which brings me to mind..

[] is repsoncible for the great breed known as the APBT and without the [] the dog does not exist, THe original bulldog was thrown into the pit forever dubbed "pit bull."
HA dogs exist in the APBT today because people DO NOT CULL! CULLING is even adult dogs not just puppies, its any undesired trait for the breed bein culled out. ALL APBT breeders especially should cull, they should also use proven stock .

I designed a game test against free roaming wild animals but it did not create pit bulls it created bullbiter/bearbiter type dogs, a lil different in mentality.. anxious to bite anything you tell them too, and easily turn HOT. so thus why I sterilized them, didn't want anyone takin them back to APBT stock. Kempfer dogs, LOL I only have one left, Turk and hes a go getter, just had to pull him off a Grt Pyrenese today! funny  seeing a lil 35lb dog whippin a 160lb ball of white fur, he only thought he wanted to run over and eat this lil brown dog. Turk does not fetch, he doesn play with ropes, he watches over kids and property waiting for something to bite; He doesnt growl, but he does bark and it sounds like a minnie mastiff bark, LOL and its just to let me know to look out the door to say good boy stay or sssk sssk, LOL.

Hoagie on the other hand is my game bred APBT and he will play all day, and his DA is so reserve he will look at me when dogs are growling and showing DA towards him, he's only jumped a dog for jumping on him and he's a hard mouthed lil dog who wags his tail consistantly, waiting to play run, or do whatever I ask of him, Hoagie is [] designed and is the perfect role model for what an APBT should be. Hoagie is a house dog and goes to soccer games and such, most ppl don't believe he is a pit bull because the mass' think pit bulls are large bulky dogs with not a trustworthy bone in the body.. LOL

Thus education........... Bandogs are HA and are bred for max drive so how they turn out is how they turn out; a true APBT is from proven stock or is proven themselves.


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## Firehazard

boer X apbt check my pics on a guard dog pit bull like photos..


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## Lex'sFart

Firehazard said:


> boer X apbt check my pics on a guard dog pit bull like photos..


Very cool, thank you firehazard


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## Sampsons Dad

De Los Medanos dogos have been very successful as Guards as well as hunters.


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## Sampsons Dad

This dog produced some fierce guards!

Quebracho de los Médanos


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## davidfitness83

that's a nice dog I love his structure. Angel did you see the episode of Dog Whisperer with the Dogo? lol


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## Firehazard

Molosser De Boeren


















MY FAVORITE considered a copperhead boer, LOL wonder why? 









people lie and misguide but truth and common sense prevails, check out Chimera Kennels and read what Lee says about the Boer; basically what I've stated is that they are the closest thing to an authentic bull mastiff and they are simply bandogges pit and mastiff type breeding practices.


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## davidfitness83

Sick lol I am not getting a dog that can out weigh me lol if that thing turns im dead lol


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## Firehazard

I am too much for most dogs, LOL so a dog thats my size or larger with athletic ability will be greatly cherished up here in rural Idaho. If Im not home I want a old world mastiff/bandog that can litterally hold a man still all day long OR all NIGHT until I get up and dial .357


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## Lex'sFart

Sampsons Dad said:


> This dog produced some fierce guards!
> 
> Quebracho de los Médanos


I'm a huge fan of Dogos and that one looks fantastic. Thanks for sharing.


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## Lex'sFart

Firehazard said:


> I am too much for most dogs, LOL so a dog thats my size or larger with athletic ability will be greatly cherished up here in rural Idaho. If Im not home I want a old world mastiff/bandog that can litterally hold a man still all day long OR all NIGHT until I get up and dial .357


Fire I'm sure you have already checked into Luceros? I would say the best possibly in the world, but I'm not familiar with them all and am open to correction.


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## Firehazard

Yeh they got some good ones, I like them because they and I have a shared sense that the american bred bandogs are the American Bull Mastiff and if I had my way all bandogs, whoppers, and dogs like ICK would be put together in the American Bull Mastiff category for the pure bred peeps in the show ring. 

I think Luceros used rottie too, but overall good dogs.. I think he said something once like the bandog should be like a prof body, invisiable until needed. 

I have been in love with that last boer pic I posted for about 6 yrs now. I LOVE THAT DOG its like Mayday roided out and on crack, LOL Thats my ideal bandog or American Bull Mastiff is a dog that looks like a game bred APBT in balance; but is 120lbs+


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## Old_Blood

Sadie said:


> We are angry because these PIT MIXES are the cause of all our issues with BSL when a mutt attacks if it even so much as looks like a pitbull to them it's a pitbull it doesn't matter if it's a mutt!!!!


If you truly believe that then you have no idea about BSL. It is very messed up that when a Pit mix attacks, the APBT. Gets blamed, but they are not the cause of all the issues, they are not the starting reason nor the sole cause. Pointing fingers won't help, especially if they are misplaced and I've seen it from all ends. APBT people blame bullies or amstaff, bully people blame game dog people, ect.


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## Sadie

Old_Blood said:


> If you truly believe that then you have no idea about BSL. It is very messed up that when a Pit mix attacks, the APBT. Gets blamed, but they are not the cause of all the issues, they are not the starting reason nor the sole cause. Pointing fingers won't help, especially if they are misplaced and I've seen it from all ends. APBT people blame bullies or amstaff, bully people blame game dog people, ect.


Old Blood I know A LOT about BSL and yes what I am saying is completely true. When these attacks happen they are almost ALWAYS a mix of some sort and the APBT get's the blame because of the lack of education on the breed not only in the media but the HSUS and Peta. Of course back yard breeder's and Irresponsible owner's are part of that. But the truth is if BYB's weren't peddling their mixed junk off and owner's didn't support them the breed would be in a much better state . People are in such a rush to own this breed because it's popular they have no idea what they are getting into. These mutt's are always a bi-product of irresponsible breeding and bad ownership. If I had my way they would all be PTS. It's harsh I know but guess what we don't need anymore unstable mixed breeds running around.


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## Firehazard

Stratton rubbed shoulders with em all including the man who founded the SPCA and whos sole priority was to eradicate the breed, AmStaff and APBT owners should all have stratton books as Going light Barney has kin and generations in the AKC as show dogs as well as [] bred dogs in the ADBA.



> Through Lightner, I met Winstead of Denver and Ed Weldon of Wyoming. Through WInstead, I met Pete Cain and aother dog men in the Denver area. In those days, however, the dogs were not so popular nor so numerous, so dog men were pretty spread out In those days, all people who kept Bulldogs wer to a greater or lesser degreee involved in pit contests. That is , if they didn't match dogs themselvse, they obtained dogs from those who did; and jus the very fact that one kep a Bulldog was an indication of some degree of tacit approval of dogfighting. Yet there were no mean dogs and no incidents of atton people. (The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier; R.F. Stratton, pg 212)





> Now, Pit Bulls are still way down in the bite statistics. The propblem is that they afigure prominently in the fatal attack statistics. I wrote many years ago that a Bulldog was "a thousand times less likely to attack than another breed," but if he did "he would be a thousand times more dangerous." Thus, it has come to pass that we have a certain nuber of Bulldogs that will attack humans. This has come about beasue of the the extreme popularity of the breed and the non-selective breeding resulting therefrom. (The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier: R.F.Stratton, pg 288)


Cull your dammm dogs!

THATS WHY WE HAVE BULLSPIT POLITICIANS BECAUSE POLITICS IS JUST RED TAPE CONFUSING THE TRUTH AND DELAYING GENUINE ACCENT OF A HIGHER PEOPLE.


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## Old_Blood

william williamson said:


> ya'll with your mix breed pits,you ride them to your ego and glory.
> and those of us strict pit handlers,we get to ride ours to the friggin gates of He!!.
> why?
> becaus you mix the blood,you promote the pit side,as if,you puppy mill them,you attach A well mannered spirited dog to an unruly manbiter,you exploit even deeper the tenacity for which they are so well known for.you sell dogs,to anyone who thinks they can manage it,they can't,the man biter side takes over,the pit bull tennacity,irons out the desire to finish,the people you sold it to call and say WTF,this dog just attacked someone for no reason,your reply,it must be the pit in it.
> and who put the pit in it? your dumb as$.
> don't let me see you at the gates of He!!,O thats right you won't be there you'll be in the glory of mixed mutt heaven.
> shove that mix,all the way with A red hot poker.
> when,WHENit bites someone or kills someone I hope its within the walls of your home,and you bury A family member.
> don't make others suffer your ignorance.


Lol who the hell is this post even aimed at. It's very misplaced. Doesn't appear to apply to anyone on this forum. For those which breed Pit mixes for the purpose of macho image and money, I couldn't agree more. But who here is so irresponsible?

I don't believe anyone here is breeding bandogs period and those who don't disagree with it are not promoting it to be irresponsibly done. They should be held to the same standards as any other breeder.

I don't aspire to own a bandog, I keep bulldogs and guardian breeds though. Most all breeds I have or have had are considered "dangerous breeds" and banned or restricted in one place or another. Though NONE of my dogs have killed or mailed anyone. Certainly not a family member, I wouldn't tolerate it for a second. If a dog can't be trusted with the family its not worth the bullet used to put it in the dirt. If I ever were to end up with a bandog, that dog would not be anymore of a danger than any of my other dogs. They will not make headlines, kill babies nor be showed off as some glorious trophy. Matter of fact it is no one's business what breed or breeds my dogs even are.

Crossing an APBT with a mastiff doesn't create some unstable killing machine. When you consider lines like Whopper and bullies that's evidence enough. Though of course for those which are HA yes the APBT will be blamed.

I knew a bullmastiff/pit which I did take a liking too, but I'm not into keeping pet dogs. It all worked out for that dog, he became a SERVICE DOG. Far cry from a man biting killing machine. A dog of any breed or mix should have a stable temperament.

I hate all responsible owners and breeders out there. They are a plague to the breeds they choose to exploit and mess up and to dogs in general. They really hurt ALL dog owners in the long run. They give PETA/HSUS fuel too.


----------



## Firehazard

Bleeding hearts fuels those fires, just like the ones to eradicate guns.. LOL like that makes sense, the police had revolvers and shotguns until Clinton gave em military spec priviledges; because IN THIS COUNTRY THE POLICE CANNOT OUTPOWER THE PEOPLE.. BLeeding hearts think that POLICE will protect you from being murdered or robbed NO they will CLEAN UP and Catch the PERP. Say we all gave in our guns to the bleedin hearts who would NOT, GANG BANGERS, MOTORCYCLE GANGS, RACIST HATE GROUPS/TERRORISTs and WHO would be stuck in the MIDDLE of ALL THAT and the SO said LAW ENFORCMENT? WHO ? US the bloody red carpet.. 

WELL ITS DIFFERENT CONTENT BUT THE SAME CONTEXT.. BLEEDING FREEKIN HEARTS. WHOs FUEL IS IGNORANCE..


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## Sadie

Old_Blood said:


> I hate all responsible owners and breeders out there. They are a plague to the breeds they choose to exploit and mess up and to dogs in general. They really hurt ALL dog owners in the long run. They give PETA/HSUS fuel too.


Responsible Ownership, And Responsible Breeding is the ONLY thing that is going to save these dogs with BSL. We are the ones fighting for the breed and educating the general public with FACTS and TRUTH about the breed. The truth is these dogs don't belong in MOST peoples hands. The less people who own them the better off the breed will be. Your views are clearly warped and have not one ounce of logic behind them.


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## Sadie

MUTT= Automatic CULL!


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## william williamson

Old_Blood said:


> Lol who the hell is this post even aimed at. It's very misplaced. Doesn't appear to apply to anyone on this forum. For those which breed Pit mixes for the purpose of macho image and money, I couldn't agree more. But who here is so irresponsible?


161 responses,1,177 views.
I'd say several folks who mix and think it's ok read it.
as if I really care for them or their plagerizing of a great breed.


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## Lex's Guardian

Sadie said:


> Old Blood I know A LOT about BSL and yes what I am saying is completely true. When these attacks happen they are almost ALWAYS a mix of some sort and the APBT get's the blame because of the lack of education on the breed not only in the media but the HSUS and Peta. Of course back yard breeder's and Irresponsible owner's are part of that. But the truth is if BYB's weren't peddling their mixed junk off and owner's didn't support them the breed would be in a much better state . People are in such a rush to own this breed because it's popular they have no idea what they are getting into. These mutt's are always a bi-product of irresponsible breeding and bad ownership. If I had my way they would all be PTS. It's harsh I know but guess what we don't need anymore unstable mixed breeds running around.


I think these type of dog attacks you're talking about also happen in 'not so great areas where byb occurs'. I hate profiling & giving ppl stereotypes but statistically that's what seems to happen. Being it's a bad area also represents the type of owner/breeder & treatment taking place as well as who knows what the heck they're mixing a dog with.

I think a freak accident could occur once in a blue moon w/ any breed but again boils down to the owner & how responsible or irresponsible they were being the at the time. BSL as a whole is an insane method ppl seem to want to vote for & just another sign of the dumbing down of US


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## Firehazard

Im a take a whopper crossed gamedog to a bandog, I dont know if Im a import a tosa or find a already bred bandog from tosa as Whopper is from DDB; it should blend very nice and make a great bandog but I wouldnt take an APBT to another dog than another APBT. As I said I consider WHopper a bandog already so, No harm no foul.. 


I had those song pop up in my head from readin all those posts, so I had to post em up.. LOL


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Firehazard said:


> Bleeding hearts fuels those fires, just like the ones to eradicate guns.. LOL like that makes sense, the police had revolvers and shotguns until Clinton gave em military spec priviledges; because IN THIS COUNTRY THE POLICE CANNOT OUTPOWER THE PEOPLE.. BLeeding hearts think that POLICE will protect you from being murdered or robbed NO they will CLEAN UP and Catch the PERP. Say we all gave in our guns to the bleedin hearts who would NOT, GANG BANGERS, MOTORCYCLE GANGS, RACIST HATE GROUPS/TERRORISTs and WHO would be stuck in the MIDDLE of ALL THAT and the SO said LAW ENFORCMENT? WHO ? US the bloody red carpet..
> 
> WELL ITS DIFFERENT CONTENT BUT THE SAME CONTEXT.. BLEEDING FREEKIN HEARTS. WHOs FUEL IS IGNORANCE..


Lets be real here... I am not going into all of it but you cannot put gang bangers and motorcycle clubs (no gangs by the way) in the same category...


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## william williamson

I have ridden all my life.gone to functions with motor cycle club members and such.
never been to big on the motor cycle gangs thingy though.
I watch that show about MG's and it tickles me,how they spout all that righteousness crap.
oh if you cross onea us you gotta fight all of us,WTF,bunch of moron bully waterheads.
yup,they gotta go 3-4 deep, use A weapon or pick on someone 1/2 their size.but then again where is fairness in ignorance?
been down that road with them at A bike race.they beat the He!! outta me.
that table was turned.
gang and club are 2 seperate and different entities.


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## Firehazard

I family in all.. even have family who are puritans so to speak, LOL play on words.. SO LETS BE REAL HERE .. When it comes to adhering to govenrment control, brotherhood, and few other comon traits then its clear to see that .. ALL I MENTIONED break the law at the expense of the community and people around them, without any resolute other than to their gang, brotherhood, family, familia, so on and so forth, when it comes to where the rubber meets the road there is reason those types are all on C block, (chuckles) and throughout most fed and state pens. I know what your tryin to say, but on a morality level when it comes to civic rights and duties its all in the same bucket. I said gangs, you said clubs  You callin clubs gangs? Im callin those that we all know are gangs, gangs.. and leaving it as simple as that word which describe their activities.


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## Firehazard

^ oh haha didnt see your post WW.. thats great.. LOL


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## Sadie

I think this thread has played itself out ... The moral of the story the APBT is an already established breed with a purpose there is no reason to breed the APBT to any other breed. I think it's fair to say that all fanciers, enthusiasts, and those who believe in breed preservation would agree with me. If you want to experiment do it with another breed.


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## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> MUTT= Automatic CULL!


Disagree. your apbt was a mutt that kept being bred back and forth until the mutt got a name kept producing the same outcome in every generation. Everydog is a mutt, pedigrees say something but there is no dna panel for the APBT am I right? then again them wisdom panels are highly innacurate but if you were to DNA all them bulldogs I doubt they would all have the same genetic make up.

MUTT crossed for a purpose and tested = keeper lol


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## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> I think this thread has played itself out ... The moral of the story the APBT is an already established breed with a purpose there is no reason to breed the APBT to any other breed. I think it's fair to say that all fanciers, enthusiasts, and those who believe in breed preservation would agree with me. If you want to experiment do it with another breed.


Most bandog programs never go back a cross to the f1 result. They breed within the second generation and forth to obtain the results they are looking for. The foundation will always mostlikely be a pure x pure and that's about the last time you see that happening for the most part.


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## Sadie

davidfitness83 said:


> Disagree. your apbt was a mutt that kept being bred back and forth until the mutt got a name kept producing the same outcome in every generation. Everydog is a mutt, pedigrees say something but there is no dna panel for the APBT am I right? then again them wisdom panels are highly innacurate but if you were to DNA all them bulldogs I doubt they would all have the same genetic make up.
> 
> MUTT crossed for a purpose and tested = keeper lol


If every dog is a mutt than why do we have established breeds? We are not talking about years ago when crossing breeds was done to establish a breed. We are talking about un-papered dogs who stem from unknown linage. The APBT is a BREED not a bunch of mutt's. My dogs stems from generations of APBT's not mutt's. You can look at my dogs and it's obvious they are APBT's if you know the breed and the standard. Some can even tell what bloodline they stem from just because the physical traits passed down are so strong in my dogs. People who know bloodlines and the dogs behind them can sometimes tell how a dog is bred even without looking at the pedigree first. But I am saying taking a papered AKC LAB to an ADBA APBT is creating a mutt. Taking 2 shelter dogs that LOOK like apbt's and breeding them but have no pedigree's are creating mutts!


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## Lex's Guardian

I know ppl will disagree but I do think adopted mutts, if raised well & cared for, can make great family pets.

I think the real problem is the types of ppl that perform byb in general, lack of socialization & overall proper care. Dogs are a reflection of the breeder & owner(mostly)


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## Firehazard

my favortie pit cross is ...










A rescue wolf mixed or "hybrid" hybrid is inaccurate because of the placement on the tree, a hybrid more accuarate would be the F1 Bengal Cat Siamese or Egyptian Maui X Asian Leopard cat. Thats a hybrid. BUT SEE! THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO SPAY AND NEUTER YOUR ANIMALS... Unless of course your the dog man or woman specialized/ing in the breeds even still, IMO opinoin a gyp should give no more than 3 or 4 litters before spayed, the most I used was 4. I usually sterilzed after 1 or 2. BUT for NOVICE and Comon people and first time owners and such, STERILIZE your pets..


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## Sadie

Lex I know we can't change that these shelter mutt's exist it's not their fault they were bred into the world by irresponsible people. So we have people in place helping to give those animals a chance. The sad part is these shelter dogs come from UNKNOWN dogs we don't know how the parents were or the dogs behind the parents were if there was HA in any current generations, if they had genetic defects, temp issues ect all of these things are passed down to the offspring and matter greatly when producing sound animals. When you know where your dog stems from there are no surprises and you can cull accordingly. People who mix breeds and don't know anything about the dogs behind what they are mixing or breeding are basically just producing pups. What happens when you breed 2 HA dogs together? There is a chance a very high chance that some of those pups are going to be HA. Sadly this happens all to often with shelter dogs because the people breeding them don't understand genetics and don't care enough to research what they are breeding before they breed. As a result you have unstable dogs being born into the world that end up in the hands of people who are unqualified and uneducated about the breed to place them properly. A lot of rescues don't even have a grasp on the breed yet they are placing these dogs left and right with average people who shouldn't own them. There are some rescue/shelter's out there who really know the breed but not many. It's very sad which is why I feel that they should be PTS it's just too risky to place them in the state the breed is in.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

@ fh & ww I said I'm not going into it... I live the life I know... Live the life before you judge... Jmo


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## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> If every dog is a mutt than why do we have established breeds? We are not talking about years ago when crossing breeds was done to establish a breed. We are talking about un-papered dogs who stem from unknown linage. The APBT is a BREED not a bunch of mutt's. My dogs stems from generations of APBT's not mutt's. You can look at my dogs and it's obvious they are APBT's if you know the breed and the standard. Some can even tell what bloodline they stem from just because the physical traits passed down are so strong in my dogs. People who know bloodlines and the dogs behind them can sometimes tell how a dog is bred even without looking at the pedigree first. But I am saying taking a papered AKC LAB to an ADBA APBT is creating a mutt. Taking 2 shelter dogs that LOOK like apbt's and breeding them but have no pedigree's are creating mutts!


I agree with your last statements I don't feel anyone should breed unpapered dogs and even papared dogs without being tested in both health and work. I was only pointing out that even the APBT with legit paperwork still has a very diverse blood. You can say they are pure bred because of the paperwork involved but there is such a vast spectrum in the APBT's that they are not really one type of pure blood. You can DNA 5 different bloodlines of gamedogs and I guarantee that they will not have the same DNA. Therefore the crossings of this dogs on paper yes they are APBT but genetically they are mutts.


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## CaLi 2 B.C.

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Lets be real here... I am not going into all of it but you cannot put gang bangers and motorcycle clubs (no gangs by the way) in the same category...


If they are hells angels you sure can.


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## Lex's Guardian

@ Sadie - Those are excellent points on why a person needs to find a good, dedicated breeder (for any breed), not just go to a puppy store, etc - pets are so commercialized these days to the point of it being big business in disguise. Also exemplifies why it's so important the average joe spay/neuter. What you just stated are things that common ppl really just don't think about & a silent epidemic.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

No Cali you can't... Like I said don't make assumptions or judgements until you live that life... I am done with this thread too touchy for me


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## Sadie

And that's why I believe what I do because even if you home out a shelter pup who let's just say the parent's were HA... That pup later on no matter how well you raise it will likely be HA and will have to be PTS .. If the owner doesn't understand the breed or have the backbone to cull the dog for it's own good and the safety of the breed and the general public that dog becomes a liability to the breed and society. It's so much more than what people will even look at. As heart breaking as it is to say that all shelter dogs should be killed if you look at the statistics and the many unknowns that surround these dogs you can at least see my point of view even if you don't agree. It's just a risk that we can't take for the breeds sake.


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## Firehazard

"white" gangs are always clubs, organizations, nations, brotherhoods and such anything but the word gangs, not since the 50's when it was cool for "white" people to be in gangs, LOL basically do to belief in oh.. whats that word. oh yeah. FREEDOM but as time evolved so did the association with and legal definition of the word gang and the actions of people that make them gang related. My grandpa R.I.P. was a contract pig farmer  LOL I've seen men from all walks of life pay tribute to that old man, chuckles and didn't know why.. hahaha then as I got to be older and as a teen he told me and showed me how things really work, LOL the people running this country were spawned by gangs and family of gang like activities.. LOL and they still work against each other while we vote for them and call it politics... buahahahhaha.. The real crooks are the ones that boulstur to be voted for and string out and hang out to dry, those teamsters and JPMorgans, and Bushs, the Clintons even, LOL hahahaha goes on and on NOW look at the controversy around the president,, HAHAHAH graduated from the IVY league of the worlds biggest gang, that Jihadist school he went to in his youth before entre into the US .. PEOPLE just forget he said to me ,,, runnin around tryin to earn a buck that aint worth spit.. hahahaha.. NOW look at it.. I have a very open mind and see how alot of things are connected and I never said clubs  
LOL I thinks its cool, but its just the way it is, white folks are generally a little more tactful and what not; than street gangs with no sense of ethics or organization.. 

Its the rebelious attitude towards authority and the wreckless attitude accompanied with mob like aggression and of course that silly lil word drugs. LOL Im not siding or bias,, just the facts of things..


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## Sadie

Ya'll better leave Sarge alone before she puts the smack down on all of you LMAO!!!


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## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> And that's why I believe what I do because even if you home out a shelter pup who let's just say the parent's were HA... That pup later on no matter how well you raise it will likely be HA and will have to be PTS .. If the owner doesn't understand the breed or have the backbone to cull the dog for it's own good and the safety of the breed and the general public that dog becomes a liability to the breed and society. It's so much more than what people will even look at. As heart breaking as it is to say that all shelter dogs should be killed if you look at the statistics and the many unknowns that surround these dogs you can at least see my point of view even if you don't agree. It's just a risk that we can't take for the breeds sake.


what is your definition of HA?


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Well I'm not white first of all... Second all gangs are clubs they r only deemed gangs by the police... Ask any 81 they will tell you club and so will any other... 

I love how a bunch of punks who think they know because they have a friend who is want to pass judgment on the next... This is a dog forum let's keep it that way cause it's obviously the only thing some know...


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## Firehazard

dogs that are naturally aggressive towards humans of course rather from a fear drive or dominance or prey the general aggression towards humans would be HA


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## Firehazard

hahahahaha.. REALLY.. jeeesh... THE POLICE started out as a GANG!! LOL


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## Firehazard

I guess they kinda still are the nations biggest gang, hahahahaha....


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## davidfitness83

Firehazard said:


> dogs that are naturally aggressive towards humans of course rather from a fear drive or dominance or prey the general aggression towards humans would be HA


For example if a robber came in and try to get at me or my wife and Bernie bit it would you consider him HA? What if a robber came in and try to attack Bernie and he deffended it self would you consider that HA?


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## Sadie

A human Aggressive dog is any dog who will attack or bite a human without being provoked. I also wouldn't tolerate a dog who bites out of fear either.


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## Firehazard

Which is why its lame to ban guns of any kind at this point until the ethics of people change, cause thats why I live in Idaho.. they have a make my day law.. as all states should.


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## davidfitness83

Sadie said:


> A human Aggressive dog is any dog who will attack or bite a human without being provoked. I also wouldn't tolerate a dog who bites out of fear either.


that's fair, I think a dog that bites out of fear or for no reason should be culled even if its a guardian breed. I think that is lack of stability. I wouldn't own a guard breed that would bite for no reason.


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## Old_Blood

Ok Sadie, I understand you are passionate and your dislike of irresponsible people, but I still think you have misplaced blame and anger to whom it doesn't belong.

I'm also very passionate about them and I agree with a lot of what you say. I respect your opinion against breeding bandogs but can't agree on the misguided belief that they are the cause and reason for BSL against the APBT.

I'm going to quote your post and reply with my thoughts.

APBT is a BSL target 2 folds. Because of attacks on humans and because they are fighting breed. Even if a lot of people have this opposition out of ignorance and HSUS propaganda the fact still remains that they fear and consider fighting dogs dangerous and a breed bred to "fight to the death" to not be fit for society.



Sadie said:


> Dog men don't have dog's getting out the yard killing humans and attacking other animals! They are responsible with this breed and know these dogs inside and out they are not the ones responsible for the issues that are going on or the bad breeding that occurs because they are breeding these dogs for the purpose in which they were intended they are not mixing them with anything else they are selectively breeding and working proven stock.


Your idyllic view of dogmen doesn't meet reality, unless very few breeding game dogs would be considered true dogmen. As there are plenty of irresponsible game dogmen out there, even if their dogs would rarely have an infraction with the GP are in part responsible for the popularity and demise of the breed. Their choices burn their own hands.

When their studs have 400, 600 or even a 1000 offspring you better believe some are getting into the wrong hands.
When they run their puppy mills with a dozen litters a year they are no better than the byb down the street. 
I could purchase a pup out of box ch tomorrow with no questions asked and use that dog for whatever purpose and be irresponsible. If the dog attacks someone, if I make pit mixes with him I'm at fault but the breeder of that dog is just as responsible for where their pups end up as any other breeder.

When they breed man biters they are themselves doing what others are faulted for.
When they even keep man biters with the intent to deter dogs being stolen, that's keeping them for the purpose of guarding.

Safe to you are right, most are not mixing and having their own crossed breeding program. However.....
When they allow breeding to game dogs for a bandog program they are aiding that bandog breeder and even taking part.
When they sell game bred pups that will be used for bandog programs they again aided in the creation and existence of them.
Pete Sparks owned a bandog, he's considered a dogman by most I believe.

If Dogmen were responsible it would have been a big help, we wouldn't have all the problems the breed has today.



> The issues with BSL don't come from dog fighter's there is a very small percentage of dog fighter's breeding and matching dogs in this country and they are so low key and go about their own business. The thugs don't count those are just dip sticks trying to be tough those aren't real dog men.


Thugs don't count as dogmen, no. But they sure hurt the breed, their image and BSL. The GP doesn't give a hoot if the fighting that attacked them or mauled their dog belongs to a dogman or a thug. They don't care that the scared up neighbors dog who periodically gets loose belongs to a backyard fighter and not a dogman. When they intentionally let their dog maul a someone's pet no one cares that they are a thug. The same arguement you use against a bandog "if they bite someone the Pit will be blamed" applies here. If these thugs dogs bite and cause issues the breed is blamed. Not the stupid owner, the people living in fear want them banned. Part of the reason for the Miami-Dade BSL was fighting.

As well certain people think they are doing dogs a favor with it. Dog's Deserve Better has been known to support BSL to prevent the suffering of Pits, the stop the cruelty of dog fighting. Dog fighting plays a role.

Just as thugs don't count as dogmen, I can hardly count a responsible bandog person as an irresponsible pit mix breeder. They are not comparable. They are 2 different things.



> It's pet bull owners who are causing the problems with this breed when is the last time you saw a dog man on the news because his APBT mauled a human or a child to death? How many dog men do you know who take their APBT's to the dog park ?


I agree. A lot of the pet bull owners and breeders cause a lot of issues due to either ignorance of the breed or outright carelessness.



> The only reason why these game dogs/ dog men are under the radar with the law is because PETA/HSUS want to destroy this breed they want it to be no more. They are going after anyone don't you see? If you own a APBT your just as guilty of dog fighting. If you own break sticks, or mills your a dog fighter. And let animal control show up and see your pitbull on a treadmill! None of us are safe people need to wake up and realize the truth. As long as you own bulldogs you will be labeled a dog fighter even if you never stepped foot in a dog fighting ring with your dog! It's irresponsible owner's who buy these dogs and don't have a clue what they really own.


Well said. I've been called paranoid, a lot of people are blind. You are guilty until proven innocent and if you are so lucky as to have your good name cleared sadly your dogs may be dead. But still these people tell me I'm crazy because their dogs don't have scares, they only use a springpole for fun, their dogs are just pets, yada yada.



Sadie said:


> Old Blood I know A LOT about BSL and yes what I am saying is completely true. When these attacks happen they are almost ALWAYS a mix of some sort and the APBT get's the blame because of the lack of education on the breed not only in the media but the HSUS and Peta. Of course back yard breeder's and Irresponsible owner's are part of that. But the truth is if BYB's weren't peddling their mixed junk off and owner's didn't support them the breed would be in a much better state . People are in such a rush to own this breed because it's popular they have no idea what they are getting into. These mutt's are always a bi-product of irresponsible breeding and bad ownership. If I had my way they would all be PTS. It's harsh I know but guess what we don't need anymore unstable mixed breeds running around.


Maybe you do, but the comment you made I couldn't agree with.

Yes if bybs were not peddling and irresponsible owners didn't exist everything would be fine. Yet this problem rest more with the APBT itself and not MUTTS. There are far more pure causing an issue than mixed. Most are not breeding mutts, but in fact pure APBT even if those dogs are junk or will be mishandled. If it is a mix yes the Pit be fanned indeed but there are plenty of HA Pits out there and the DA ones causing issue too. There are game bred man biters allowed to live too, IMO a problem.

If those breeding game dogs were not peddling well hell that would solve a lot of the issues too. The population of the APBT would be greatly reduced and not in every body and anybody's hands without all these pups being produced.

There are only few dogmen which go about their business quietly, I can't provide any stats but i'd have to say for every quiet one that keeps their stuff private there are many more shining like a 100 watt light bulb.

Not harsh just ridiculous. You assume that because a Pit is crossed it will create an unstable dog. Lol ok. I assure there are stable mixed dogs out there, including those that are Pit mixes. These dogs can actually have a positive impact too. I'm in agreement of having unstable mixes PTS, that makes sense. If I had my way we wouldn't have issues with dogs, including the APBT. It's really simple all unstable dogs would be PTS, irresponsible people couldn't own dogs, ignorant people couldn't own dogs. Problems all solved. Man's best friend would be considered so instead of a danger.


----------



## CaLi 2 B.C.

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> No Cali you can't... Like I said don't make assumptions or judgements until you live that life... I am done with this thread too touchy for me


I "deal" with some of these folks Trust me i know wtf goin on there.Thats just one group maybee the largest most recognised group.I didnt say anything about any other "clubs" Because i dont really know any of them.I really wasnt trying to start anything with my statement but its the truth.I have no problems with any bike club i can understand how honest hardworking folks get upset when they are "profiled" as a gang or whatever just because of the "lifestyle" they live.You arent them please dont get offended.


----------



## davidfitness83

Old_Blood said:


> Ok Sadie, I understand you are passionate and your dislike of irresponsible people, but I still think you have misplaced blame and anger to whom it doesn't belong.
> 
> I'm also very passionate about them and I agree with a lot of what you say. I respect your opinion against breeding bandogs but can't agree on the misguided belief that they are the cause and reason for BSL against the APBT.
> 
> I'm going to quote your post and reply with my thoughts.
> 
> APBT is a BSL target 2 folds. Because of attacks on humans and because they are fighting breed. Even if a lot of people have this opposition out of ignorance and HSUS propaganda the fact still remains that they fear and consider fighting dogs dangerous and a breed bred to "fight to the death" to not be fit for society.
> 
> Your idyllic view of dogmen doesn't meet reality, unless very few breeding game dogs would be considered true dogmen. As there are plenty of irresponsible game dogmen out there, even if their dogs would rarely have an infraction with the GP are in part responsible for the popularity and demise of the breed. Their choices burn their own hands.
> 
> When their studs have 400, 600 or even a 1000 offspring you better believe some are getting into the wrong hands.
> When they run their puppy mills with a dozen litters a year they are no better than the byb down the street.
> I could purchase a pup out of box ch tomorrow with no questions asked and use that dog for whatever purpose and be irresponsible. If the dog attacks someone, if I make pit mixes with him I'm at fault but the breeder of that dog is just as responsible for where their pups end up as any other breeder.
> 
> When they breed man biters they are themselves doing what others are faulted for.
> When they even keep man biters with the intent to deter dogs being stolen, that's keeping them for the purpose of guarding.
> 
> Safe to you are right, most are not mixing and having their own crossed breeding program. However.....
> When they allow breeding to game dogs for a bandog program they are aiding that bandog breeder and even taking part.
> When they sell game bred pups that will be used for bandog programs they again aided in the creation and existence of them.
> Pete Sparks owned a bandog, he's considered a dogman by most I believe.
> 
> If Dogmen were responsible it would have been a big help, we wouldn't have all the problems the breed has today.
> 
> Thugs don't count as dogmen, no. But they sure hurt the breed, their image and BSL. The GP doesn't give a hoot if the fighting that attacked them or mauled their dog belongs to a dogman or a thug. They don't care that the scared up neighbors dog who periodically gets loose belongs to a backyard fighter and not a dogman. When they intentionally let their dog maul a someone's pet no one cares that they are a thug. The same arguement you use against a bandog "if they bite someone the Pit will be blamed" applies here. If these thugs dogs bite and cause issues the breed is blamed. Not the stupid owner, the people living in fear want them banned. Part of the reason for the Miami-Dade BSL was fighting.
> 
> As well certain people think they are doing dogs a favor with it. Dog's Deserve Better has been known to support BSL to prevent the suffering of Pits, the stop the cruelty of dog fighting. Dog fighting plays a role.
> 
> Just as thugs don't count as dogmen, I can hardly count a responsible bandog person as an irresponsible pit mix breeder. They are not comparable. They are 2 different things.
> 
> I agree. A lot of the pet bull owners and breeders cause a lot of issues due to either ignorance of the breed or outright carelessness.
> 
> Well said. I've been called paranoid, a lot of people are blind. You are guilty until proven innocent and if you are so lucky as to have your good name cleared sadly your dogs may be dead. But still these people tell me I'm crazy because their dogs don't have scares, they only use a springpole for fun, their dogs are just pets, yada yada.
> 
> Maybe you do, but the comment you made I couldn't agree with.
> 
> Yes if bybs were not peddling and irresponsible owners didn't exist everything would be fine. Yet this problem rest more with the APBT itself and not MUTTS. There are far more pure causing an issue than mixed. Most are not breeding mutts, but in fact pure APBT even if those dogs are junk or will be mishandled. If it is a mix yes the Pit be fanned indeed but there are plenty of HA Pits out there and the DA ones causing issue too. There are game bred man biters allowed to live too, IMO a problem.
> 
> If those breeding game dogs were not peddling well hell that would solve a lot of the issues too. The population of the APBT would be greatly reduced and not in every body and anybody's hands without all these pups being produced.
> 
> There are only few dogmen which go about their business quietly, I can't provide any stats but i'd have to say for every quiet one that keeps their stuff private there are many more shining like a 100 watt light bulb.
> 
> Not harsh just ridiculous. You assume that because a Pit is crossed it will create an unstable dog. Lol ok. I assure there are stable mixed dogs out there, including those that are Pit mixes. These dogs can actually have a positive impact too. I'm in agreement of having unstable mixes PTS, that makes sense. If I had my way we wouldn't have issues with dogs, including the APBT. It's really simple all unstable dogs would be PTS, irresponsible people couldn't own dogs, ignorant people couldn't own dogs. Problems all solved. Man's best friend would be considered so instead of a danger.


:goodpost:


----------



## Firehazard

My mom had to put her german dobie to sleep because a robber kicked in the back door and the dog snaggled him in the pantry way, some city rule about aggressive dogs, LOL REALLY.. SO WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE VICTIMS and DEPEND on governmental services, chuckles.. No one can save you but you.. shts and giggles of the political system. Know your state and city laws.. Know your rights.. gotta live free.. If I want a bear sized man eating dog on my land and carry a gun on my hip that my God given freedom, the clean up crew can clean up the attempted assailant, intruder, or what have you... Your gettin the dog, then I dial .357 if at home, if not well a quick .45 cent call to S&W.. LOL SO WE NEED HUMAN AGGRESSIVE DOGS.. HELL look at the dang ol GSD it alot more HA when getting the lines used in service work vs the dogs the people breed by the masses, LOL I dont believe people should be breeding APBTs to any other breed, because for the most part ITS ALL already out there.. Any HA dog that is a manstopper that is a APBT cross it out there already just get one of those, LOL as far as liking the mutts that are out there.. LOL I like the APBT X AKITA thats a good solid tough cur.. ahahahha acts like a damm jackal. Lady brought in the result of her two ch sired pups only problem dad was a colby pit 35lbs and the ma a 60lbs akita.. she wanted the whole litter euthanized, LOL good lil dog I saved one and named her kegger..


----------



## davidfitness83

Firehazard said:


> My mom had to put her german dobie to sleep because a robber kicked in the back door and the dog snaggled him in the pantry way, some city rule about aggressive dogs, LOL REALLY.. SO WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE VICTIMS and DEPEND on governmental services, chuckles.. No one can save you but you.. shts and giggles of the political system. Know your state and city laws.. Know your rights.. gotta live free.. If I want a bear sized man eating dog on my land and carry a gun on my hip that my God given freedom, the clean up crew can clean up the attempted assailant, intruder, or what have you... Your gettin the dog, then I dial .357 if at home, if not well a quick .45 cent call to S&W.. LOL SO WE NEED HUMAN AGGRESSIVE DOGS.. HELL look at the dang ol GSD it alot more HA when getting the lines used in service work vs the dogs the people breed by the masses, LOL I dont believe people should be breeding APBTs to any other breed, because for the most part ITS ALL already out there.. Any HA dog that is a manstopper that is a APBT cross it out there already just get one of those, LOL as far as liking the mutts that are out there.. LOL I like the APBT X AKITA thats a good solid tough cur.. ahahahha acts like a damm jackal. Lady brought in the result of her two ch sired pups only problem dad was a colby pit 35lbs and the ma a 60lbs akita.. she wanted the whole litter euthanized, LOL good lil dog I saved one and named her kegger..


Good point on them already being out there no need to recrossing  I wouldn't f with an AKita those things are serious lol


----------



## Sadie

Old_Blood said:


> Ok Sadie, I understand you are passionate and your dislike of irresponsible people, but I still think you have misplaced blame and anger to whom it doesn't belong.
> 
> I'm also very passionate about them and I agree with a lot of what you say. I respect your opinion against breeding bandogs but can't agree on the misguided belief that they are the cause and reason for BSL against the APBT.
> 
> I'm going to quote your post and reply with my thoughts.
> 
> APBT is a BSL target 2 folds. Because of attacks on humans and because they are fighting breed. Even if a lot of people have this opposition out of ignorance and HSUS propaganda the fact still remains that they fear and consider fighting dogs dangerous and a breed bred to "fight to the death" to not be fit for society.
> 
> Your idyllic view of dogmen doesn't meet reality, unless very few breeding game dogs would be considered true dogmen. As there are plenty of irresponsible game dogmen out there, even if their dogs would rarely have an infraction with the GP are in part responsible for the popularity and demise of the breed. Their choices burn their own hands.
> 
> When their studs have 400, 600 or even a 1000 offspring you better believe some are getting into the wrong hands.
> When they run their puppy mills with a dozen litters a year they are no better than the byb down the street.
> I could purchase a pup out of box ch tomorrow with no questions asked and use that dog for whatever purpose and be irresponsible. If the dog attacks someone, if I make pit mixes with him I'm at fault but the breeder of that dog is just as responsible for where their pups end up as any other breeder.
> 
> When they breed man biters they are themselves doing what others are faulted for.
> When they even keep man biters with the intent to deter dogs being stolen, that's keeping them for the purpose of guarding.
> 
> Safe to you are right, most are not mixing and having their own crossed breeding program. However.....
> When they allow breeding to game dogs for a bandog program they are aiding that bandog breeder and even taking part.
> When they sell game bred pups that will be used for bandog programs they again aided in the creation and existence of them.
> Pete Sparks owned a bandog, he's considered a dogman by most I believe.
> 
> If Dogmen were responsible it would have been a big help, we wouldn't have all the problems the breed has today.
> 
> Thugs don't count as dogmen, no. But they sure hurt the breed, their image and BSL. The GP doesn't give a hoot if the fighting that attacked them or mauled their dog belongs to a dogman or a thug. They don't care that the scared up neighbors dog who periodically gets loose belongs to a backyard fighter and not a dogman. When they intentionally let their dog maul a someone's pet no one cares that they are a thug. The same arguement you use against a bandog "if they bite someone the Pit will be blamed" applies here. If these thugs dogs bite and cause issues the breed is blamed. Not the stupid owner, the people living in fear want them banned. Part of the reason for the Miami-Dade BSL was fighting.
> 
> As well certain people think they are doing dogs a favor with it. Dog's Deserve Better has been known to support BSL to prevent the suffering of Pits, the stop the cruelty of dog fighting. Dog fighting plays a role.
> 
> Just as thugs don't count as dogmen, I can hardly count a responsible bandog person as an irresponsible pit mix breeder. They are not comparable. They are 2 different things.
> 
> I agree. A lot of the pet bull owners and breeders cause a lot of issues due to either ignorance of the breed or outright carelessness.
> 
> Well said. I've been called paranoid, a lot of people are blind. You are guilty until proven innocent and if you are so lucky as to have your good name cleared sadly your dogs may be dead. But still these people tell me I'm crazy because their dogs don't have scares, they only use a springpole for fun, their dogs are just pets, yada yada.
> 
> Maybe you do, but the comment you made I couldn't agree with.
> 
> Yes if bybs were not peddling and irresponsible owners didn't exist everything would be fine. Yet this problem rest more with the APBT itself and not MUTTS. There are far more pure causing an issue than mixed. Most are not breeding mutts, but in fact pure APBT even if those dogs are junk or will be mishandled. If it is a mix yes the Pit be fanned indeed but there are plenty of HA Pits out there and the DA ones causing issue too. There are game bred man biters allowed to live too, IMO a problem.
> 
> If those breeding game dogs were not peddling well hell that would solve a lot of the issues too. The population of the APBT would be greatly reduced and not in every body and anybody's hands without all these pups being produced.
> 
> There are only few dogmen which go about their business quietly, I can't provide any stats but i'd have to say for every quiet one that keeps their stuff private there are many more shining like a 100 watt light bulb.
> 
> Not harsh just ridiculous. You assume that because a Pit is crossed it will create an unstable dog. Lol ok. I assure there are stable mixed dogs out there, including those that are Pit mixes. These dogs can actually have a positive impact too. I'm in agreement of having unstable mixes PTS, that makes sense. If I had my way we wouldn't have issues with dogs, including the APBT. It's really simple all unstable dogs would be PTS, irresponsible people couldn't own dogs, ignorant people couldn't own dogs. Problems all solved. Man's best friend would be considered so instead of a danger.


I am not speaking about Bandog's last time I checked they are an established breed LOL .. I am talking about mixing established breeds you need to go and read my posts. I don't agree with mixing already ESTABLISHED BREEDS!!! I am talking about some dip stick mixing breeds without having any information on the dogs behind them generations back. I don't agree with using the APBT to create a guard dog because of the fact this breed was never bred for that purpose. Not to mention the general public already believes the APBT are unstable man eater's! So anything that looks like a PIT in the media's eyes that attacks a human will be blamed. The dog men I know don't peddle in fact they only deal with other dog men lol .. They aren't selling their pups to the general public either. The people I deal with don't keep man biter's they cull them. Even historically there were a few and even keeping them and breeding them was selfish and irresponsible. There are dog men and then there are wanna be's ... I didn't say ALL MIXES will create an unstable dog.. But if you are breeding UNKNOWN DOGS from UNKNOWN ORGINS how the hell can you say what they will produce ? You don't know anything about the dogs behind them what traits have been passed down. You don't go breeding unknown unproven crap!


----------



## CaLi 2 B.C.

LOL I got .357 on speed dial


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## Firehazard

REALLY IMO if you arent a dog man.. but you wanna learn a thing or two, get the best book you can find on wolves and wolf behavior, then the best book on your favorite breed if not two or three and then go find one at the shelter or rescue or pound, LOL and If your just the average joe and you want a man dog.. LOL again the shelter, just be sure to label the breed: MUTT LOL I got a german dobie, a german rottie and GSD all k9 trained as they came down to be placed from over ran dep back in the day, LOL good dogs wasnt lettin anyone on that Nowata land. Ran good with my APBT crew and most important Hooch. LOL GET A POUND PUPPY the best bet. Another favorite APBT mix.. LOL
















Pit X CHOW a good lil fear biter.. LOL but good mutt dogs in too as any dependends on the owner and environment.







hahahaha this one is at the shelter..


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## CaLi 2 B.C.

Chows are nasty lil buggers @ least the ones ive dealt with


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## Sadie

The only breed I will ever own is an APBT I don't care about any other breed LOL .. If it's not and APBT to me it's just another dog. I love bulldogs that's all I own that's all I will ever own. They are the ultimate working dog that no other breed can surpass. You can have your bandogs, Gsd's, Filas, Dobies, Rotti's, shelter mutt's, mixed cur breeds I don't want em. Give me a well bred bulldog with a lot of heart that's all I need. A real bulldog can do it all.


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## Firehazard

Yeah well when I do have a dog get somebody, its not gonna be an APBT other than that Sadie I agree with pretty much all the way, although I am partial to my wolves too  But they aint dogs...


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## william williamson

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> @ fh & ww I said I'm not going into it... I live the life I know... Live the life before you judge... Jmo


did you not get the part,I've ridden my whole life.was raised with family friends who were outlaws.spent alot of time at the clubhouse in Davie Fl.
as I got older,and fell into A different sort of life of crime,and from being bullied,it was very easy to see the realism of bikers,and bullies being synonoymous.
I'm not into the whole,live your ego out being A thug.
today I've got alot of friends who Pseudo-biker the image.
theirs a diff,as FH said to bike clubs and biker gangs.
those who ride and live A peaceful consolable life,and the others slingin dope,hot guns,their 'ol lady,random kill for A rocker,violate some moral that may have been instilled in A wholesome family unit.
part of the reason for my getting clean was that theirs 2 kids who would be looking at my behavior.
I chose to be a better example than the one I was exposed to.
it seems to have worked.my daughter rides A GSXR 600,she has bike club friends.they rally ride and enjoy the freedom.
not hemmed up in some biker dungeon,givin "rides" out in the back room.
see,I know what the diff is.


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## william williamson

Firehazard said:


> Yeah well when I do have a dog get somebody, its not gonna be an APBT other than that Sadie I agree with pretty much all the way, although I am partial to my wolves too  * But they aint dogs*...


to bad,it'd take alot of heat off of pits,LOL


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## Firehazard

Pit Hound mix







pit bassett mix







pit boston mix

LOL more pit mixes than lab mixes.. LOL


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## Firehazard

^^ ahhaha wouldn't it.. LOL for sure.. THESE WOLF HYBRIDS are ruining our nation! OUR CHILDREN ARE AT RISK WITH THE PREDATORS RUNNING THE STREETS IN PEOPLE BACK YARDS.. LOL hahaha I can see it now..


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## CaLi 2 B.C.

LOL @ the pit basset hound.My friends dad had a daschundXrotti he was a beast LOLL we called em weenie rot


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## Firehazard

Pit bull mutts far and wide all over the world, Puerto Rico to the congo, LOL the pit bulldog is renowned for its stuff and many people want one, and dont sterilize and then it breeds with their other pure bred dog, LOL thus the term "fence hopper" from back in the day reffering to ****** but really loose dogs.. hahahahaha


----------



## Firehazard

rott and doxie, thats badazz a buddy of mine had a pit doxie and that lil mean bastage was lookin for any person to get squirly on, his wife let it out the gate like she did all his other dogs.. LOL but I bet rott and doxie that was a chin and gnut bittin terror.


----------



## Sadie

Old_Blood said:


> Yes if bybs were not peddling and irresponsible owners didn't exist everything would be fine. Yet this problem rest more with the APBT itself and not MUTTS. There are far more pure causing an issue than mixed. Most are not breeding mutts, but in fact pure APBT even if those dogs are junk or will be mishandled. If it is a mix yes the Pit be fanned indeed but there are plenty of HA Pits out there and the DA ones causing issue too. There are game bred man biters allowed to live too, IMO a problem.
> 
> If those breeding game dogs were not peddling well hell that would solve a lot of the issues too. The population of the APBT would be greatly reduced and not in every body and anybody's hands without all these pups being produced.


Ok really? The APBT is the one responsible for these attacks ? BS every time you turn on the news and see one of these so called APBT's killing a human it's almost ALWAYS a mix of some sort. The general public doesn't even know what an APBT is they think a pitbull is 100 lbs with a big head yet the APBT is responsible for the issues with the breed? I think not! Game bred dogs are not designer dogs most people don't even know what they are or where to find them. The people who want a pit basically want what they believe a pit is supposed to look like which we all know is NOT a real APBT ! That's funny game dog breeder's peddling hmmmmm I had a hard time weeding out the trash to get to the dogs I own now. There are plenty of Bully Breeder's listed online but very few bulldog websites ... It's a lot harder to get your hands on the real thing than it is to find a mutt/mix Bully and that is the TRUTH! How many Bully breeder's and Mutt breeder's sell their papered/un-papered MUTT'S as APBT's THOUSANDS of them...


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## k8nkane

Omg, pit/basset mix. That is too much. I probably would have PTS, look at its front.


----------



## CaLi 2 B.C.

Firehazard said:


> rott and doxie, thats badazz a buddy of mine had a pit doxie and that lil mean bastage was lookin for any person to get squirly on, his wife let it out the gate like she did all his other dogs.. LOL but I bet rott and doxie that was a chin and gnut bittin terror.


This boy was super chill not a mean bone in em.However he insisted to rub his red rocket EVERYWHERE :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Firehazard




----------



## davidfitness83

APBT X DOBIE










Looks like a German Pinscher

APBT X ROTTIE


----------



## Firehazard

Pissetts LOL buahahahahhahaha! and Pitoodles.. buahahahhaha


----------



## Firehazard

PIT Rottie mix.. I got my eyes shut in a meditation mantra just after an introductory of Oms.. and the camera was recording my yoga session, I played it back and found this so I still phramed it and cropped and copied, LOL Po' is a good lil mt. cur.. LOL


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## william williamson

pit boodle
poobull


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## k8nkane

How about poopit?


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## Sadie

[email protected] william ...


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## davidfitness83

Poodles are some smart ass dogs, I respect them. They were bird dogs too if I am not mistaken.. I saw a blue one in a crate when i was at the training club with Bernie. As soon as we walked by that dog snapped at Bernie like a damn tazmanian devil lol pretty scary it had the afro puff and everything.


----------



## william williamson

k8nkane said:


> How about poopit?


isn't that the place where the preacher gives A lousy sermon from?


----------



## Sadie

Around here poopits would get eaten LOL ...I had to tell my neighbor the other day not to let his his kick me dogs loose in my yard I am not responsible for my dogs eating them. I hope he takes head to my warning.


----------



## k8nkane

Sadie said:


> Around here poopits would get eaten LOL ...I had to tell my neighbor the other day not to let his his kick me dogs loose in my yard I am not responsible for my dogs eating them. I hope he takes head to my warning.


The real question is .... would they be eaten by your dogs, or you? :rofl:


----------



## Sadie

LMAO!!! I would just kick them out my yard they are too hairy for my liking. My dogs would eat them hahahaha...


----------



## Sadie

Or maybe I will try the leave it method with them  And see how that works out FURRY SNACK TIME WHOO HOO ...


----------



## Sadie

Wow this is really freaky looking


----------



## davidfitness83

It is obvious that if the bulldog gets a hold its a wrap but I dont think the bulldog can beat a poodle or collie in a sprint.


----------



## Firehazard




----------



## davidfitness83

that's carlas dog Jaeger the pitty in the first video  he is so awesome !! I believe he has a lot of gamedogs in his ped too.


----------



## davidfitness83

Those Collie's are fast as lightining


----------



## Firehazard

thats what PKs dogs are competeing with in agility  good sht!!


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

CaLi 2 B.C. said:


> I "deal" with some of these folks Trust me i know wtf goin on there.Thats just one group maybee the largest most recognised group.I didnt say anything about any other "clubs" Because i dont really know any of them.I really wasnt trying to start anything with my statement but its the truth.I have no problems with any bike club i can understand how honest hardworking folks get upset when they are "profiled" as a gang or whatever just because of the "lifestyle" they live.You arent them please dont get offended.


First and foremost please do not think that because you read some of my thoughts on a computer that you know me CAUSE YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN... You can deal with whomever you chose but just like I said before unless you live the life you have no clue... You could be someone's blood brother that is in one of these clubs and you still dont no nothing... Just saying... Second how do you know wtf I am or what club (gang whatever you wanna call it) I am A VESTED MEMBER of not to mention the fact the I hold an officer position and so does my husband... I dont care what anyone wants to profile me as you either take it or leave it cause I dont give a &*%^...

Oh and heres a few more groups so next time you throw around some names you can sound a bit more like you know what youre saying...

Hells Angels
Mongols
IOOB
Vagos
Mixed Breed
Stunnas
Convicts
Soul Brothers (yes they werent just in a movie they are real)
Diciples
Dahuru
Brother Speed

Thats just a few to start you off... Google em and learn something!!


----------



## CaLi 2 B.C.

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> First and foremost please do not think that because you read some of my thoughts on a computer that you know me CAUSE YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN... You can deal with whomever you chose but just like I said before unless you live the life you have no clue... You could be someone's blood brother that is in one of these clubs and you still dont no nothing... Just saying... Second how do you know wtf I am or what club (gang whatever you wanna call it) I am A VESTED MEMBER of not to mention the fact the I hold an officer position and so does my husband... I dont care what anyone wants to profile me as you either take it or leave it cause I dont give a &*%^...
> 
> Oh and heres a few more groups so next time you throw around some names you can sound a bit more like you know what youre saying...
> 
> Hells Angels
> Mongols
> IOOB
> Vagos
> Mixed Breed
> Stunnas
> Convicts
> Soul Brothers (yes they werent just in a movie they are real)
> Diciples
> Dahuru
> Brother Speed
> 
> Thats just a few to start you off... Google em and learn something!!


Look i obviously dont know you and never claimed to.Didnt ever say you were anything.I made a statement that offended you...my apoligies.I dont have a problem with whatever activities anybody on here or in the real world is involved with.Ill just leave it at that.


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

I appreciate it and sorry too but I am very passionate about few things and thsat is one of them


----------



## Lex'sFart

Sadie said:


> I am not speaking about Bandog's last time I checked they are an established breed LOL .. I am talking about mixing established breeds you need to go and read my posts. I don't agree with mixing already ESTABLISHED BREEDS!!! I am talking about some dip stick mixing breeds without having any information on the dogs behind them generations back. I don't agree with using the APBT to create a guard dog because of the fact this breed was never bred for that purpose. Not to mention the general public already believes the APBT are unstable man eater's! So anything that looks like a PIT in the media's eyes that attacks a human will be blamed. The dog men I know don't peddle in fact they only deal with other dog men lol .. They aren't selling their pups to the general public either. The people I deal with don't keep man biter's they cull them. Even historically there were a few and even keeping them and breeding them was selfish and irresponsible. There are dog men and then there are wanna be's ... I didn't say ALL MIXES will create an unstable dog.. But if you are breeding UNKNOWN DOGS from UNKNOWN ORGINS how the hell can you say what they will produce ? You don't know anything about the dogs behind them what traits have been passed down. You don't go breeding unknown unproven crap!


Not to start anything Sadie, just thought I'd make mention that the Bandog is technically not an established breed. Also as mentioned a bandog can be a mix of most bully breeds with most mastiff breeds. Although the most established is the apbt X neo, most programs continue to mix in new blood to work toward the desired purpose.


----------



## Sadie

LOL Well they have been around for a pretty long time and I know certain registries do recognize them as a breed not sure how reputable they are but these are the ones that do. 

ACHC, DDKC, DRA, BBC, DBR

Anyway regardless they are considered a hybrid or cross breed and are not pure bred but I would say they have been along long enough to consider them a breed. 

Origin: 

American Bandogges are not purebred dogs, in the way we know the word "purebred". Their ancestry is of American Pit Bull Terrier and Neapolitan Mastiff. There are some kennels who do produce Bandogs successfully in many generations, without adding blood from other breeds, and have gained a homogeneous type. In the late 1960's a veterinarian by the name of Swinford began a breeding program which was ultimately to produce the greatest of all protection dogs. Though breeders of Bandogges today disagree on just what breeds went into Swinford's original breeding scheme, the general compromise is that it was 50 % American Pit Bull Terrier and 50 % very large molosser. The most common method employed to produce a Bandogge is to cross a good game male American Pit Bull Terrier with a large and strong Neapolitan Mastiff female. Another somewhat common method used in breeding the Bandogges is to cross an English Mastiff with an American Pit Bull Terrier. The American Canine Hybrid Club recognizes the American Bulldog crossed with a Mastiff as an American Bandogge. The Designer Dogs Kennel Club recognizes the American Bulldog crossed with the Mastiff as the American Masti-Bull. Also a similar cross is the Pit Bull Terrier and the Bullmastiff cross, however this cross is not called Bandogges but rather a Pit Bullmastiff. The name Bandog was used in the old England by the Saxons and comes from the word Banda,-a Saxon word for chain. It was common practice to tie the dog by day, and release him at night to enable him to carry out his guard duties.


----------



## davidfitness83

Lex'sFart said:


> Not to start anything Sadie, just thought I'd make mention that the Bandog is technically not an established breed. Also as mentioned a bandog can be a mix of most bully breeds with most mastiff breeds. Although the most established is the apbt X neo, most programs continue to mix in new blood to work toward the desired purpose.


If it's not bred for work it's a mutt.


----------



## Lex'sFart

Sadie said:


> LOL Well they have been around for a pretty long time and I know certain registries do recognize them as a breed not sure how reputable they are but these are the ones that do.
> 
> ACHC, DDKC, DRA, BBC, DBR
> 
> Anyway regardless they are considered a hybrid or cross breed and are not pure bred but I would say they have been along long enough to consider them a breed.
> 
> Origin:
> 
> American Bandogges are not purebred dogs, in the way we know the word "purebred". Their ancestry is of American Pit Bull Terrier and Neapolitan Mastiff. There are some kennels who do produce Bandogs successfully in many generations, without adding blood from other breeds, and have gained a homogeneous type. In the late 1960's a veterinarian by the name of Swinford began a breeding program which was ultimately to produce the greatest of all protection dogs. Though breeders of Bandogges today disagree on just what breeds went into Swinford's original breeding scheme, the general compromise is that it was 50 % American Pit Bull Terrier and 50 % very large molosser. The most common method employed to produce a Bandogge is to cross a good game male American Pit Bull Terrier with a large and strong Neapolitan Mastiff female. Another somewhat common method used in breeding the Bandogges is to cross an English Mastiff with an American Pit Bull Terrier. The American Canine Hybrid Club recognizes the American Bulldog crossed with a Mastiff as an American Bandogge. The Designer Dogs Kennel Club recognizes the American Bulldog crossed with the Mastiff as the American Masti-Bull. Also a similar cross is the Pit Bull Terrier and the Bullmastiff cross, however this cross is not called Bandogges but rather a Pit Bullmastiff. The name Bandog was used in the old England by the Saxons and comes from the word Banda,-a Saxon word for chain. It was common practice to tie the dog by day, and release him at night to enable him to carry out his guard duties.


Your correct the term bandog has beenaround for quite sometime. But it is a generic term describing a type. Although as you've listed there are established strains.

The eventuality of breeding true and consistent is you no longer have a bandog, technically.


----------



## Xiahko

Looks like a mutated Boxer to me.


----------



## Lex'sFart

Xiahko said:


> Looks like a mutated Boxer to me.


Lol Oh Xiahko you are the height of too muchery.


----------



## wild_deuce03

Never mind.


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

Who said they were?


----------



## wild_deuce03

Never mind again.


----------



## Xiahko

Lex'sFart said:


> Lol Oh Xiahko you are the height of too muchery.


As are you my farting nemesis.


----------



## chaindog

davidfitness83 said:


> I think of a mutt and a bandog in totally different terms. Every dog breed we have now were at one point crosses of working dogs. if a dog can't work then it's not worth breeding regardless of how pure it is.


I came across this site when looking for bandog photos. The Bandog is meant to be a purpose bred dog. Not just to produce a pet or a good looking dog. A mutt is just a random breeding. A bandog breeding has a purpose behind it.

That Fia/apbt is a very impressive looking dog and sounds like it is an awesome performer for it's purpose.


----------



## chaindog

Sadie said:


> No I here you .. I am just not one who appreciates crossing breeds to already established breeds. It doesn't take much to ruin good dogs and good bloodlines. I respect this breed and the creators too much to destroy the work that went into the foundation laid for us. I am just very passionate about that. I know at one point all breeds have been out bred in the beginning. Nothing wrong with guard dogs but there are dogs who were bred for that very purpose and well suited for guard/protection work. The apbt was not one of them.


Um I don't think Bandog breeders are adding mastiff to apbts bloodlines. They are using apbt blood to create their own breed.


----------



## chaindog

Sadie said:


> Yeah and your forgetting to mention the fact that the majority of pet owner's are highly irresponsible. For every good owner I can easily show you 20 bad owners. Apbt's are not protection dogs there is no need to use them to create man bitter's as stated there are many other breeds designed and engineered for protection/guard work. There is a big difference in toy drive and an apbt or apbt cross actually attacking a human. If most people had control of their dogs and bred and cared for them responsibly this wouldn't be an issue but the reality is there are far too many bad owners and not enough good ones.


SO you agree that bad owners ruin the breed, not the breed of the dog itself.


----------



## chaindog

Sadie said:


> *Favorite Pit/Bully Breed Crosses* ... That was the topic my answer was very simple leave established breeds alone. You want a mutt? go to the shelter and adopt plenty of them in the shelter to choose from. I am tired of people trying to mess around with this breed using the APBT name to market their trash. I am sorry you don't have to like it but it is what it is. It's offensive to people who are fighting to protect and preserve these dogs. My comments are completely relevant to this thread. I don't agree with crossing breeds. I am strongly against it wether you proposed it or not you suggested the topic and I answered it my favorite APBT X Bully breed cross is NO cross at all and gave you my reasons.


You say that you're protecting the breed?

How is breeding a purpose bred Bandog using Apbt worse than breeding game Apbts? You said you'd happily breed your dog to a "game" dog?

Both are purpose breedings for different reasons.


----------



## chaindog

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Other side of the point being that if most of them didn't exist it would cut down on the issues the apbt faces.... A mutt is a mutt that's it... If one loves their mutt better for the dog... But there's no real reason anyone could give that makes it ok to cross any two established breeds... There are enough designer breeds to make someones head spin leave well enough alone already...


Alll breeds including the APBT got created some how. So all dogs are Mutts. And not all bandogs are first crosses some Kennels have generations of breeding in their bloodlines.

The same goes for hunting dogs. People breed their line of purpose bred dogs. Thats the basics of working dog breeding, breed from dogs with the desirable characteristics to fit the purpose.


----------



## chaindog

Sadie said:


> Dog men don't have dog's getting out the yard killing humans and attacking other animals! They are responsible with this breed and know these dogs inside and out they are not the ones responsible for the issues that are going on or the bad breeding that occurs because they are breeding these dogs for the purpose in which they were intended they are not mixing them with anything else they are selectively breeding and working proven stock. The issues with BSL don't come from dog fighter's there is a very small percentage of dog fighter's breeding and matching dogs in this country and they are so low key and go about their own business. The thugs don't count those are just dip sticks trying to be tough those aren't real dog men. It's pet bull owners who are causing the problems with this breed when is the last time you saw a dog man on the news because his APBT mauled a human or a child to death? How many dog men do you know who take their APBT's to the dog park ? The only reason why these game dogs/ dog men are under the radar with the law is because PETA/HSUS want to destroy this breed they want it to be no more. They are going after anyone don't you see? If you own a APBT your just as guilty of dog fighting. If you own break sticks, or mills your a dog fighter. And let animal control show up and see your pitbull on a treadmill! None of us are safe people need to wake up and realize the truth. As long as you own bulldogs you will be labeled a dog fighter even if you never stepped foot in a dog fighting ring with your dog! It's irresponsible owner's who buy these dogs and don't have a clue what they really own.


The same can be said for true Bandog breeders. They are not the ones whose dogs get out and bite people. They are breeding for a purpose. Not mixing random breeds, but mixing breeds with desirable traits for a purpose.

The issues of BSL aren't caused by Bandog breeders. Bandog breeders are also low key and going about their own business. And thugs with random first cross apbt/mastiff mixes don't count.

When wasd the last time you saw a Bandog breeder on the news because his dog got out and attacked. It's irresponsible owner's who buy these dogs and don't have a clue what they really own. Also bad breeders.


----------



## chaindog

davidfitness83 said:


> I agree with your last statements I don't feel anyone should breed unpapered dogs and even papared dogs without being tested in both health and work. I was only pointing out that even the APBT with legit paperwork still has a very diverse blood. You can say they are pure bred because of the paperwork involved but there is such a vast spectrum in the APBT's that they are not really one type of pure blood. You can DNA 5 different bloodlines of gamedogs and I guarantee that they will not have the same DNA. Therefore the crossings of this dogs on paper yes they are APBT but genetically they are mutts.


I believe this to be accurate aswell. The apbt is/was a working dog bred from various bull and terrier types dogs which descended from bull-baiting dogs. They were bascially a bunch of fighting bull and terrier type dogs at one time. So the bloodline is very diverse. I don't think anyone in those days cared where the bloodline came from as long as it was for the pit.


----------



## chaindog

Sadie said:


> I am not speaking about Bandog's last time I checked they are an established breed LOL .. I am talking about mixing established breeds you need to go and read my posts. I don't agree with mixing already ESTABLISHED BREEDS!!! I am talking about some dip stick mixing breeds without having any information on the dogs behind them generations back. I don't agree with using the APBT to create a guard dog because of the fact this breed was never bred for that purpose. Not to mention the general public already believes the APBT are unstable man eater's! So anything that looks like a PIT in the media's eyes that attacks a human will be blamed. The dog men I know don't peddle in fact they only deal with other dog men lol .. They aren't selling their pups to the general public either. The people I deal with don't keep man biter's they cull them. Even historically there were a few and even keeping them and breeding them was selfish and irresponsible. There are dog men and then there are wanna be's ... I didn't say ALL MIXES will create an unstable dog.. But if you are breeding UNKNOWN DOGS from UNKNOWN ORGINS how the hell can you say what they will produce ? You don't know anything about the dogs behind them what traits have been passed down. You don't go breeding unknown unproven crap!


The Bandog is more of a type then breed. Different kennels have different breeding programs. And most started off mixing established breeds including the apbt.

Now you have yourself under the 'responsible owner' umbrella, good on you. Now you just need to stop pointing the finger at breeders of other types of dogs. Don't put all the blame on another group. Why not look at the big picture.


----------



## aussie monster pitt

ibeffudled said:


> my ACD/staffy cross is a great dog to me, i truly do not like the idea of mixed breed dogs but all my dogs kind of just fell into my lap as pups i didn't pay a dime for any of them. but my dog does show why you shouldnt mix breeds, though well socialized and extremely well trained he tends to have a biting issue with someone he gets a shady vibe from. never a kid or someone i knew just people that show up with others but it gets annoying having to keep him away from people


your dog needs to be culled HA dogs have no reason for breathing IMO


----------



## william williamson

aussie monster pitt said:


> your dog needs to be culled HA dogs have no reason for breathing IMO


it's one thing to have the proverbial gun,which,in my 33 years of wning pits, thats what it is.
A dog thats HA,thats A land mine, which you are holding the depressor on.
it's gonna blow,as soon as you give it the chance.
you are solely the one, who in my eyes,having this type of animal, should be held physically accountable.
which means, if your dog were to bite someone I love, when the dog is savoring the beating with A bat,your next.
you know it's dangerous, and it goes the distance,your in the race too.

***PS,AMP, I know it's not your dog, this comment is generic, not barbed for any one person, just any in general who would knowingly risk the health and welfare of another.***


----------



## aussie monster pitt

william williamson said:


> it's one thing to have the proverbial gun,which,in my 33 years of wning pits, thats what it is.
> A dog thats HA,thats A land mine, which you are holding the depressor on.
> it's gonna blow,as soon as you give it the chance.
> you are solely the one, who in my eyes,having this type of animal, should be held physically accountable.
> which means, if your dog were to bite someone I love, when the dog is savoring the beating with A bat,your next.
> you know it's dangerous, and it goes the distance,your in the race too.
> 
> ***PS,AMP, I know it's not your dog, this comment is generic, not barbed for any one person, just any in general who would knowingly risk the health and welfare of another.***


no worries mate i agree with ya.
if some one ownes a HA dog its only a matter of time before it bites someone then its solely on them for not culling at the first glance of HA as much as i love my bitches 1 sign of HA and ill be taken em to the bush with the old .22 and coming home alone.
as sad as it is it needs to be done.


----------



## Sadie

We have one rule in this house No HA dogs allowed!! EVER!!


----------



## aussie monster pitt

Firehazard said:


> Molosser De Boeren
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MY FAVORITE considered a copperhead boer, LOL wonder why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people lie and misguide but truth and common sense prevails, check out Chimera Kennels and read what Lee says about the Boer; basically what I've stated is that they are the closest thing to an authentic bull mastiff and they are simply bandogges pit and mastiff type breeding practices.


wow that last 1 looks like a APBT on roids


----------



## junkyard

What a ridiculously stupid thread this has turned out to be. 17 pages of moot points about mutts, because someone is obsessed with finding a "one job for all" cross bred mutt that will be great for protection.
Bandog this ambulldog that what a super waste of time. 

And to use Lee from chimeras program as an example is a joke and i think that it would take away from lees program too be lumped into this uneducated never owned a protection dog mess this has turned into.

Get off your arse go buy a dog suited to the role and WORK IT, stop day dreaming about slapping a spoodle with a doodle and crossing it with a lion to gain a great protection animal with a carefree coat!

Dreaming and bull crapping about this type of stuff is useless if you dont even have the hands on experience to handle one pure bred of the breeds mentioned let alone a cross of the two. 
Get off the pipe and start working them dogs.


----------



## Sadie

[email protected] Junkyard I think I about spit my soda out.


----------



## Eric

What's a spoodle and a doodle?



Ok, that was all hahaha, just teasing


----------



## Sadie

Dude I thought he was talking about ramen noodles I was getting hungry LMAO!!!


----------



## Eric

LMAOOO!!!

Sadie, those are oodles of noodles, girl  hahahaha


----------



## junkyard

About the same as a sterstaf or any other slap together lol.


----------



## william williamson

junkyard said:


> About the same as a sterstaf or any other slap together lol.


pit boodle


----------



## Mach0

Lol- this thread is entertaining. 

I will say this- mixing breeds requires a skill and knowledge that many ppl lack. It shouldn't be attempted by a rookie. You need a goal first, game plan, and execute it. Yes, irresponsible breeders tarnish the apbt's name. However, I feel that the uneducated/inexperienced dog owners do more harm than anyone else. While I may understand that there are some true die hard apbt lovers and enthusiasts, a great amount are not there yet. Alot of the attitude may push others away. I feel that knowledge should be spread. Don't scold everyone because you are strongly opinionated. You gotta understand one thing, working dog serves a purpose. While it is probably the most versatile working breed, there may always be a need for something different. Different strokes for different folks. That being said, try to keep an open mind, pass the knowledge as well as gain some new knowledge, and hope that the person participating in the cross has a legitimate goal with a good deal of knowledge as the connoisseurs.


----------



## davidfitness83

Amen Freddy


----------



## Mach0

davidfitness83 said:


> Amen Freddy


 
Thanks. Over the years, I've come to learn alot by just being humble. No one learns while speaking.


----------



## junkyard

Its just getting real old to read these pipe dream threads about "let create this bandog.............[dream dream dream] wow that would be cool" and then rave on about it like they know what the hell they are on about. 
There is a reason swinford died before the bandog was completed, it simply wasnt good enough. They even matched a few of his dogs and they could not give a apbt half its size a decent run.

It was at best a great ideal that needs much work but instead of getting on the rocks and dreaming make for some real topics on the subject ie; what would be the biggest issues with such a probram and how said pipedreamer wishes to go about the task.
How long would such a program go on for to even make it a viable option?
Why not just use a dog thats made for the job?
What REAL research have you done into doing such breedings?
What health issues would be of major concern as a mutt breeder?

While old mates dreaming up mutts there are real enthusiasts out there actualy taking part in the role in the sun, while you are on wikipedia splicing pictures and gazing at the stars thinking "what would swinford do"


----------



## Sadie

junkyard said:


> Its just getting real old to read these pipe dream threads about "let create this bandog.............[dream dream dream] wow that would be cool" and then rave on about it like they know what the hell they are on about.
> There is a reason swinford died before the bandog was completed, it simply wasnt good enough. They even matched a few of his dogs and they could not give a apbt half its size a decent run.
> 
> It was at best a great ideal that needs much work but instead of getting on the rocks and dreaming make for some real topics on the subject ie; what would be the biggest issues with such a probram and how said pipedreamer wishes to go about the task.
> How long would such a program go on for to even make it a viable option?
> Why not just use a dog thats made for the job?
> What REAL research have you done into doing such breedings?
> What health issues would be of major concern as a mutt breeder?
> 
> While old mates dreaming up mutts there are real enthusiasts out there actualy taking part in the role in the sun, while you are on wikipedia splicing pictures and gazing at the stars thinking "what would swinford do"


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

I agree I don't need a half thought about experimental spoodle and a doodle to work for me when I have an APBT that's all the working dog I need. Ya'll dreamer's can have the rest. I'll take what's already been "proven" to get the job done. Hands down the APBT is the finest working dog to ever exist nothing can surpass it.


----------



## Mach0

Lol- night guys


----------



## Sadie

Mach0 said:


> Lol- night guys


You know I wub you Tigger  oke::angeldevi


----------



## Mach0

Sadie said:


> You know I wub you Tigger  oke::angeldevi


 you know we cool :woof:


----------



## Mach0

junkyard said:


> Its just getting real old to read these pipe dream threads about "let create this bandog.............[dream dream dream] wow that would be cool" and then rave on about it like they know what the hell they are on about.
> There is a reason swinford died before the bandog was completed, it simply wasnt good enough. They even matched a few of his dogs and they could not give a apbt half its size a decent run.
> 
> It was at best a great ideal that needs much work but instead of getting on the rocks and dreaming *make for some real topics on the subject ie; what would be the biggest issues with such a probram and how said pipedreamer wishes to go about the task.
> How long would such a program go on for to even make it a viable option?
> Why not just use a dog thats made for the job?
> What REAL research have you done into doing such breedings?
> What health issues would be of major concern as a mutt breeder?
> 
> While old mates dreaming up mutts there are real enthusiasts out there actualy taking part in the role in the sun, while you are on wikipedia splicing pictures and gazing at the stars thinking "what would swinford do"


I agree that its an old debate. Its as old as a debate as saying that the bulldog is not a bull/terrier cross, but rather the original bulldog( or close to it), when the terrier is more than evident in the mix. Its funny because most of us have no legit reason for having a working animal, yet we love them so much. Lets me ask this question- How many ppl actually on this site or others, work their dogs? When I mean work, I mean earn their food legitamately as means of existence? Not just say " Hey, we are gonna work out" and hook up a cart to a harness or spring pole since its gonna be fun and have the dog in shape. Now I am *not trying to be a @ss by any means. What I am saying by different strokes for different folks, I am saying that different purposes require different things and some ppl like different breed characteristics. Theres a reason why mastiffs were the ancient guardians, GSD's are used by the police, collies as herders, lurchers, bull-arabs etc. You can find APBT's that are smarter than the others just as you can find a HA one. My state of mind revolves around one thing- working animal serves a purpose. Its not about how the dog was bred but why the dog was bred. I'll put it this way, many of your dogmen were not honest. Some were, many weren't. Can you honestly say that these dogs have been kept pure since the left the old country? Prob not. That can account for the vast array of looks. I know of a man personally who wanted to use a friend of mines terrier to add something to his line lol. What kind of This guy is well known too with nothing but private ped'd dogs. Everything goes when making a buck or getting a win under the belt. We all know this. Pound for pound the APBT is the ultimate gladiator. *There's no denying that. However, this isnt the reinvention of the wheel for most of the people.The APBT wasn't designed to do some things that another breed may do better i.e protection. Sure, some say get a ambulldog. I like the ambulldog but it does come short in some things. Some just want an all around balanced dog and it can be a mutt. They are not interested in selling it. They produce for their own needs. The same way that real dogmen's dogs dont see the public or sell to anyone, the same way it is with legititmate working dog owners. The dogs dont give themselves a bad rep. People give dogs the bad rep. Responsible ownership is a must for working breed, let alone any animal. I wouldn't fuse other blood to improve the APBT, but I will fuse the ABPT's dna to improve another working animal( as long as it lacked something that it needed.)

With that being said, I will can respectfully say, I can agree to disagree with some of the points that you have made.


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## davidfitness83

Well said Freddy..


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## junkyard

Nice posting Mach! You are so right.

I am the last to deny an outcross here or there in gamedogs. But my life does not revovle around them. The outcrosses this is about are not even viable to create an outcross, it is a topic of crossing two breeds maybee three together to make a new breed that has been done for years, maybee centuries. The apbt when on the sly is crossed by whom thinks needs to be is infact trying to be hidden, if another breed is added its gaurded and not flaunted. There is the first difference with bandog dreamers compared to doggers.
I am sure you see the points made including the previous i have made.

Your GSD is a perfect example as a dog that is bred for a purpose[not knowing your background] yet there are others whom dream up silly crosses like its new and no one ever done it.

Is your dog not better suited to the role and not some byb pipdream?

You may infact be right with the owners not exercising the dogs but there is still a difference, best case scenario 50% of our members work the dogs they have.
So should the other 50 consider crossing to make bandogs for no other reason other than interest?


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## Mach0

junkyard said:


> Nice posting Mach! You are so right.
> 
> I am the last to deny an outcross here or there in gamedogs. But my life does not revovle around them. The outcrosses this is about are not even viable to create an outcross, it is a topic of crossing two breeds maybee three together to make a new breed that has been done for years, maybee centuries. The apbt when on the sly is crossed by whom thinks needs to be is infact trying to be hidden, if another breed is added its gaurded and not flaunted. There is the first difference with bandog dreamers compared to doggers.
> I am sure you see the points made including the previous i have made.
> 
> Your GSD is a perfect example as a dog that is bred for a purpose[not knowing your background] yet there are others whom dream up silly crosses like its new and no one ever done it.
> 
> Is your dog not better suited to the role and not some byb pipdream?
> 
> You may infact be right with the owners not exercising the dogs but there is still a difference, best case scenario 50% of our members work the dogs they have.
> So should the other 50 consider crossing to make bandogs for no other reason other than interest?


Yea I understand. I truly believe to attempt anything - you need to fully assess and be aware of the possible outcomes, know the breeds used in and out, and be dedicated. Rookies or designer breeders are best the leave it alone. When producing for work, it has to be able to work and that's all that matters to me. I use my gsd as my guard dog so any mutt I would even think to create or buy would have to perform as my guard dog. Can an apbt do it? Yes, but that's a potentially bad combo. I like a big dog that can take a man down quick and not make the cover of todays newspaper.However, I wouldn't be interested in making a buck and it would be for my use only.


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## Mach0

However, I can't speak on anyone elses behalf.


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## william williamson

now this brings to light,Sadie and I both felt that when isolating certain features of A few or several breeds to breed A special strain or purpose built dog you have to be well educated AND informed on 1. what is the foundation animals available for specific breeds,2. their all around concensus or guideline they will each meet,from each breed,then the strain of blood and stature,and how it will anodize itself to your goal.


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## Mach0

william williamson said:


> now this brings to light,Sadie and I both felt that when isolating certain features of A few or several breeds to breed A special strain or purpose built dog you have to be well educated AND informed on 1. what is the foundation animals available for specific breeds,2. their all around concensus or guideline they will each meet,from each breed,then the strain of blood and stature,and how it will anodize itself to your goal.


I agree :goodpost:


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