# Socializing



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I decided to make this thread for a few reasons mostly due to there being quite a few questions it seems lately with getting new pups and socializing them, what it is etc. Before i begin i just want to express that mods can feel free to move this to another section or VIP if needed as it seems my threads tend to attract many people, this can be both positive or negative. I will also point out that these are strictly my views on socializing, if you choose to disagree and post at least keep it constructive so anyone here that may have questions may view this keeping it educational vs. anything else.

I've noticed both that on this forum as well as people i cross on a day to day basis that have puppies or young adults have questions about socializing and the best methods of going about it. One of the most popular misconceptions (at least IMO) with socializing is play dates. (i will leave dog parks out of this)

*What is Socialization?*
The name says it all, socializing. A well socialized dog will remain confident and calm in new surroundings and situations, not just those that are the "norm". Socializing a puppy is probably quite obvious as to how to go about doing this but in short you want to introduce new sights, smells and environments at a young age. (generally i will start around 2 - 2.5 months) Introducing to new people, sniff and greet other dogs and animals that may be in contact with on a mostly day to day basis (cats, guinea pigs, etc) so on so forth. One thing to keep in mind is to remain confident and positive, just as with training a negative experience will more than likely cause a step back or even shut down when it comes to socializing.

*Play Dates; Part of Socializing?*
This is the part i know i have disagreed with people over the years however of all the years i've owned dogs, i've always had stable, self confident dogs. Playing with other dogs can help and can prove to be beneficial however it isn't necessary. When it comes to socializing and your dog i operate under the "sniff, greet and leave". A dog playing with other dogs is just that, cut and dry, black and white. I have seen and encountered over the years plenty of dogs that are excellent with playing (with dogs) though lack other essentials and break down in certain situations. Like wise, of course if you don't let your puppy in some form or another meet and smell other puppies or dogs the likely hood of setting your pup up for failure later in dog-situations will be higher. By simply greeting and smelling new dogs you are giving your dog what it needs.

*Working breeds*
While this is more or less a continual of the play dates all dogs need to be socialized, there is no exceptions. One thing i have found that you need to ask yourself before getting a puppy is, whats your reasoning behind the dog? If you plan on using them for work (i.e protection, hunting, etc) this also further goes into how much interaction your pup is allowed with others, how much is too much? When allowing a dog to constantly be around others (dogs) the dependency on you tends to drop and that dependency on dog company tends to rise. If you are looking for a protection dog or a hunter (especially not using in packs) my post may give you something to think about to go about the vital stages of a puppies life.

In the end im not saying allowing dogs to play with others is wrong, you shouldn't do it etc. Its your dog and your choice and there are exceptions for everything. If this helps anyone to any degree than thats what i was looking to accomplish.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Great post! Let me ask you something.....Is it still considered socializing when you take a dog to areas where there are lots of people, dogs, bikes, carriages, etc. without letting people touch my dog? I would say it is but I am just curious


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Great post! Let me ask you something.....Is it still considered socializing when you take a dog to areas where there are lots of people, dogs, bikes, carriages, etc. without letting people touch my dog? I would say it is but I am just curious


Yes because you are still allowing your dog to smell and see people, dogs, carriages etc. Though as a pup i personally would recommend allowing him to smell and be touched occasionally. I have seen really head shy and "pet shy" dogs that don't mind being around people but if someone tried to pet them they instantly shut down. Of course not every single person needs to touch your dog but im sure you get the idea.

Being surrounded by new things like you mentioned is definitely a good way of socializing but i believe to a certain level of interaction (even if its just smelling or being touched by someone) completes the aspect of socializing.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Yes because you are still allowing your dog to smell and see people, dogs, carriages etc. Though as a pup i personally would recommend allowing him to smell and be touched occasionally. I have seen really head shy and "pet shy" dogs that don't mind being around people but if someone tried to pet them they instantly shut down. Of course not every single person needs to touch your dog but im sure you get the idea.
> 
> Being surrounded by new things like you mentioned is definitely a good way of socializing but i believe to a certain level of interaction (even if its just smelling or being touched by someone) completes the aspect of socializing.


BINGO! Bella is head shy..she came to me that way at 4 1/2 months and I don't even want to think why. Can a dog just be head shy for no reason or does it stem from being hit? She loves going up and sniffing people when we walk by them but when they stop to try and pet her which most people approach dogs the wrong way IMO she shuts down a bit. She is shy but she has come along way thanks to OB classes


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I don't allow my dogs to play with other dogs that are not in my home. I will however expose them to other dogs on the outside with a leash in passing. I tried to pull a Lisa the other day and took both of my dogs to pet smart on short leashes/prong collars just to see if I could do it and they did pretty well. They still get very excited to see other dogs but on the leash I have control over them and I try not to allow them to focus on anything for too long. But as far as play dates go no way not my dogs exposing them to different places is ok as long as it's in a controlled environment. 

Now I don't mind strange people walking up to pet my dogs but I expect them to ask permission first. I don't walk up to anyones dog without asking their owners first and I expect the same respect in return.


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

Sadie said:


> I don't allow my dogs to play with other dogs that are not in my home. I will however expose them to other dogs on the outside with a leash in passing. I tried to pull a Lisa the other day and took both of my dogs to pet smart on short leashes/prong collars just to see if I could do it and they did pretty well. They still get very excited to see other dogs but on the leash I have control over them and I try not to allow them to focus on anything for too long. But as far as play dates go no way not my dogs exposing them to different places is ok as long as it's in a controlled environment.
> 
> Now I don't mind strange people walking up to pet my dogs but I expect them to ask permission first. I don't walk up to anyones dog without asking their owners first and I expect the same respect in return.


im with you on the play date thing. my dogs might be a member of my family but it still just seems silly to me. i never have understood the "need" for socializing a dog with other dogs. i guess its cool for some people but i live like a hermit anyway so if anyone needs socialization, its me.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> BINGO! Bella is head shy..she came to me that way at 4 1/2 months and I don't even want to think why. Can a dog just be head shy for no reason or does it *stem from being hit*? She loves going up and sniffing people when we walk by them but when they stop to try and pet her which most people approach dogs the wrong way IMO she shuts down a bit. She is shy but she has come along way thanks to OB classes


Don't let random ppl pet her that will add to the stress. If she is worried about ppl making them pet her will set in that fear. Instead have ppl get food and see if she will go to them and have them pet her under her chin not on top of her head. IMO don't let random people pet her they don't need to just people she will know and be comfortable with.
I don't let random people pet my dogs, they ask and I say no then they give me dirty looks!!LMAO



Sadie said:


> I don't allow my dogs to play with other dogs that are not in my home. I will however expose them to other dogs on the outside with a leash in passing. *I tried to pull a Lisa the other day and took both of my dogs to pet smart on short leashes/prong collars just to see if I could do it and they did pretty well*. They still get very excited to see other dogs but on the leash I have control over them and I try not to allow them to focus on anything for too long. But as far as play dates go no way not my dogs exposing them to different places is ok as long as it's in a controlled environment.
> 
> Now I don't mind strange people walking up to pet my dogs but I expect them to ask permission first. I don't walk up to anyones dog without asking their owners first and I expect the same respect in return.


LMAO your funny!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah I mean it's pretty darn amazing if they can get along with dogs in your own home let alone strange dogs. Bulldogs do not need friends but I have no issues with exposing them to other dogs if it's on a leash and not to interact for any period of time. But lets say I am out and about and take one of the dogs with me I do not want them flipping out dragging me all over the place so I will take mine out to different places on occasion just so they get the feel for different places, people, ect. And my dogs are SUPER human friendly. Anyone can come up to my dogs and get greeted with lots of love. Obviously they are not so affectionate with strange dogs and I don't expect them to be. I just want them to act civilized in public LOL but that does not mean I expect them to be lovie dovie with other strange dogs, cats, ect ect.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> Don't let random ppl pet her that will add to the stress. If she is worried about ppl making them pet her will set in that fear. Instead have ppl get food and see if she will go to them and have them pet her under her chin not on top of her head. IMO don't let random people pet her they don't need to just people she will know and be comfortable with.
> I don't let random people pet my dogs, they ask and I say no then they give me dirty looks!!LMAO
> 
> LMAO your funny!


Girl all I kept thinking about was you and 10 bulldogs LMAO!!!!!! I felt like god with just my two ! Like yeah I did it hahahahahaha:rofl:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> Don't let random ppl pet her that will add to the stress. If she is worried about ppl making them pet her will set in that fear. Instead have ppl get food and see if she will go to them and have them pet her under her chin not on top of her head. IMO don't let random people pet her they don't need to just people she will know and be comfortable with.
> I don't let random people pet my dogs, they ask and I say no then they give me dirty looks!!LMAO
> 
> LMAO your funny!


Lisa BTW Bogart did ok the only issue was he jumped out of the pet smart cart once LMAO!!!!! I let AVA walk along side me and I put bogart in the buggy. Bogart wanted to get out so he did... After he jumped out the buggy I let him walk with me and AVA.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> Don't let random ppl pet her that will add to the stress. If she is worried about ppl making them pet her will set in that fear. Instead have ppl get food and see if she will go to them and have them pet her under her chin not on top of her head. IMO don't let random people pet her they don't need to just people she will know and be comfortable with.
> I don't let random people pet my dogs, they ask and I say no then they give me dirty looks!!LMAO


Yes, Lisa that is what I have been doing. I don't like having random people touch her and don't let them. I just didn't know if that was wrong so I didn't express it. I take her to petsmart, petco, etc with treats in hand and she wags tail and takes cookies but people always want to pet over the head instead of under the chin and that's what freaks her out. But she also has a crush on rugged looking men and likes to lick there faces off lol! It's almost as if she picks and chooses who she likes and goes to them. I have no problem saying NO and I can deal with the dirty looks! I am the master of dirty looks :roll:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> BINGO! Bella is head shy..she came to me that way at 4 1/2 months and I don't even want to think why. Can a dog just be head shy for no reason or does it stem from being hit? She loves going up and sniffing people when we walk by them but when they stop to try and pet her which most people approach dogs the wrong way IMO she shuts down a bit. She is shy but she has come along way thanks to OB classes


IMO there are several reasons for being head shy and unfortunately since you weren't there its impossible to know the exact reasoning behind it, some for whatever reason are just naturally like that others it can be from a poor cropping job without proper care, abuse, etc. I agree with Lisa though limit the stress as long as shes fine with you petting her thats all that really would matter since its your dog no one elses.

Playing with other dogs and heavy interaction with other dogs i completely am against when it comes to Bulldogs and other working bred dogs for many reasons, one of the biggest reasons is in my OP. There is a certain level of interaction (sniffing) as puppies i believe helps with socializing especially when it comes to Bulldogs. A breed already designed for fighting doesn't need anxiety to dogs to come along with it due to never seeing or being around any dogs.

Mine did play together as pups until DA kicked in for both and i have stopped completely. I'll let them interact with each other around the house periodically through the day when im right on top of them (to prevent) just because i need them together occasionally. I can only do that though because they listen so well, if it wasn't for training it would be create rotate 24/7. As soon as i see they are starting to stress or have "moments" they get separated and thats that.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

yeah, I hate when people just run up and try to pat my pup. Sometimes he doesn't want to meet people, its like he can sense they are going to approach him and he will sometimes meet them and get a pat, but sometimes he moves behind me. I trust his judgement, lol. If he doesn't want to meet them, I tell them sorry, but please don't come closer and spook him, they give me dirty looks too sometimes, lol.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

My position with socializing to other dogs has always been that a sniff-n-greet is not full socialization with other dogs because it's not enough time for them to build their doggy language and to learn appropriate responses to the signs that other dogs give them. BUT, the point is moot if you're not going to let your dog play with other dogs later in life anyways.

I always let Kane do a meet-n-greet AFTER asking the other owner if it's ok and AFTER he gives me a sit and I give him permission to go over and sniff. I also do my best to make it an appropriate greeting--from the side rather than straight on as that is threatening to some dogs.

@Bella -- Kane is hand-shy due to my ex-bf being too aggressive with him, but he's gotten better since I've started actively working on it. Lisa gave you great tips that I use all the time to help Kane out--I step in front of him if people try to pet him without asking, telling the person that he's friendly but they need to crouch down to his level and pet him under the chin and I hand them a few treats, like bits of chicken or his liver treats.

Another thing you can do is teach Bella to "Target" or "Touch" your hand, and then use that to open Bella up to interact with people's hands coming at her. It reframes the whole "evil hands coming at me" into a "oooh, a hand is coming at me that my owner told me to Target and I know if I Target it, I can get a treat from my owner".

You can teach her to Target your hand by holding your hand out with your fingers pressed together like you're holding a treat pinched between them. When she reaches out to sniff and accidentally bumps your hand, you click (or say Yes!) and give her a treat from your other hand. As she gets the idea, you'll want to click/Yes! progressively harder bumps until they have a nice, equal force behind them that's harder than the slight bump you'll get from her sniffing.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Oh and dont get me started on pet stores. lol I wouldn't dare go into any if there is any real number of people with dogs in there, both of mine are entirely too reactive and will do anything in their power to get to a dog if its close enough. I wouldn't want to put the stress on either of them with dealing with that nor would i want to put them in that kind of situation where the possibility is all to real of something horrible happen. If they were less reactive or not so much DA i would probably do it occasionally.

Places like that and these type of dogs i just personally dont agree with taking them often, if at all unless they are young unless its not very busy. Even highly trained theres a high risk. Plus i dont really care for 95% of anything dog related they care so i really have no care in the world to go there unless shampoo is on sale or i need to get another prong collar. Otherwise i take business else where. lol


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> IMO there are several reasons for being head shy and unfortunately since you weren't there its impossible to know the exact reasoning behind it, some for whatever reason are just naturally like that others it can be from a poor cropping job without proper care, abuse, etc. I agree with Lisa though limit the stress as long as shes fine with you petting her thats all that really would matter since its your dog no one elses.
> *Yes, I can do anything to her and that's all that matters to me *
> 
> Playing with other dogs and heavy interaction with other dogs i completely am against when it comes to Bulldogs and other working bred dogs for many reasons, one of the biggest reasons is in my OP. There is a certain level of interaction (sniffing) as puppies i believe helps with socializing especially when it comes to Bulldogs. A breed already designed for fighting doesn't need anxiety to dogs to come along with it due to never seeing or being around any dogs.
> ...


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> My position with socializing to other dogs has always been that a sniff-n-greet is not full socialization with other dogs because it's not enough time for them to build their doggy language and to learn appropriate responses to the signs that other dogs give them. BUT, the point is moot if you're not going to let your dog play with other dogs later in life anyways.
> 
> I always let Kane do a meet-n-greet AFTER asking the other owner if it's ok and AFTER he gives me a sit and I give him permission to go over and sniff. I also do my best to make it an appropriate greeting--from the side rather than straight on as that is threatening to some dogs.
> 
> ...


Crucial learning when it comes to dogs should take place while still with the mother. Also like many of us that is further engaged with multiple dog owners. When it comes to working dogs as i stated in my OP, the dependency is going to change with the more engagement you allow with other dogs. Also when it comes to Bulldogs and other genetic DA dog breeds the older the become the higher the risk factor is. Generally if your going to allow such behavior after 6 - 7 months the timing is shot and you should pull back on allowing that type of interaction with other dogs if not completely. Of course, this is only my opinion based on my experiences so please dont take offense when i say these. There are always exceptions and plenty of other factors that can go into play however i refuse with my dogs or pups that i train to take that risk. Now Lisa is much more heavier in training than i am so she may offer a different perspective when it comes to this post. Im not a full blown trainer by any means, i self train my dogs and have trained dogs in the past but to no level is it compared to Lisa. Though as my OP stated, socializing a pup and playing with other dogs are two different objectives. While playing can benefit to an extent it doesn't really provide socializing skills. Though if you do disagree and it seems you do, don't take offense to my posts if directed to you as i don't mean it to put you down.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> KMdogs said:
> 
> 
> > IMO there are several reasons for being head shy and unfortunately since you weren't there its impossible to know the exact reasoning behind it, some for whatever reason are just naturally like that others it can be from a poor cropping job without proper care, abuse, etc. I agree with Lisa though limit the stress as long as shes fine with you petting her thats all that really would matter since its your dog no one elses.
> ...


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

No, I know you're not putting me down. You're explaining your POV.

Speaking in a general sense of "dogs" and excluding those breeds who have a genetic heritage of DA (as I've recently learned that lesson), I believe allowing your puppy to play with other dogs is important if you're going to routinely be allowing them to interact with strange dogs on a regular basis as an adult. If you plan on taking them to the dog park, to doggy daycare, to play with the neighbor's dogs, I think it's crucial and actually HARMFUL if you do NOT allow your puppy to socialize with other dogs. It's setting them up to fail because they do not understand the signals other dogs will give them during play, whether it's calming signals to tell the puppy they are getting too amped up (looking away, yawning, sniffing the ground, whatever) or whether it's telling them to back off for coming on too strong. Because they aren't appropriately socialized to other dogs, they won't catch those signals and they will be the ones to instigate fights out of their own confusion and lack of social graces. It's a similar idea to locking someone up in a room for the first 24 years of their life, with no interaction to the outside world or with people, and then on their 25th birthday, you shove them out of the house to make it on their own. What's going to happen? They're going to freak out, possibly becoming frustrated and angry or shutting down.

Again, this doesn't apply to breeds with genetic DA or already DA dogs.

I also wanted to add that I don't think puppies are able to learn enough in the short weeks they're with their mother and littermates. They learn the basics, but they won't learn the full scope of dog language.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Good! I think sometimes people get too wrapped up in their dogs having to have dog friends or have everyone approve of their dogs. Its like those people who get dogs just as a fashion statement, your dogs should be for you not for anyone else. Personally i could care less if either of my dogs cared for strangers so long as they obey my commands and eager to please me and my family or needs. Of course i am going fully on a working dog persons perspective, im sure someone could argue with me that believes different but i think everyone should feel that way to some extent.
> 
> :goodpost: *Honestly, I could careless as well. I had no choice but to careless for years with an HA/DA dog so it really doesn't bother me anymore. *
> 
> HA dogs need very specific handlers and by no means does the general public need one. Myles has HA traits though very manageable through consistent training.


_*Luckily I knew how to handle an HA dog and was very cautious and very strict with consistent training. He was our "guard dog" and I did some PP with him so I was on top of his issues. He was extremely submissive with me and extremely loyal to my family, but he didn't care for anyone else. Most would of had him PTS but I was up for the challenge and dealt with him. I am very resposible but if he was in the wrongs hands he probably wouldn't have lasted to long. Thanks for all your input *_


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## duckyp0o77 (Dec 5, 2008)

Sadie said:


> I don't allow my dogs to play with other dogs that are not in my home. I will however expose them to other dogs on the outside with a leash in passing. I tried to pull a Lisa the other day and took both of my dogs to pet smart on short leashes/prong collars just to see if I could do it and they did pretty well. They still get very excited to see other dogs but on the leash I have control over them and I try not to allow them to focus on anything for too long. But as far as play dates go no way not my dogs exposing them to different places is ok as long as it's in a controlled environment.
> 
> Now I don't mind strange people walking up to pet my dogs but I expect them to ask permission first. I don't walk up to anyones dog without asking their owners first and I expect the same respect in return.


i am 100% w/ this post here. But I would also like to add that I'm also a lil weary of others w/ dogs. Some people will let their dogs go up to others and think its ok which is why I gotta be alert when we go somewhere. Bailey still goes to Banfield so we of course walk around petsmart lol.. and i thank God she's well behaved in there.. not all the dogs are. I think sometimes its gotta be hard for her, i know if i wasnt as good as i am she's be actin a fool in there haha


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> No, I know you're not putting me down. You're explaining your POV.
> 
> Speaking in a general sense of "dogs" and excluding those breeds who have a genetic heritage of DA (as I've recently learned that lesson), I believe allowing your puppy to play with other dogs is important if you're going to routinely be allowing them to interact with strange dogs on a regular basis as an adult. If you plan on taking them to the dog park, to doggy daycare, to play with the neighbor's dogs, I think it's crucial and actually HARMFUL if you do NOT allow your puppy to socialize with other dogs. It's setting them up to fail because they do not understand the signals other dogs will give them during play, whether it's calming signals to tell the puppy they are getting too amped up (looking away, yawning, sniffing the ground, whatever) or whether it's telling them to back off for coming on too strong. Because they aren't appropriately socialized to other dogs, they won't catch those signals and they will be the ones to instigate fights out of their own confusion and lack of social graces. It's a similar idea to locking someone up in a room for the first 24 years of their life, with no interaction to the outside world or with people, and then on their 25th birthday, you shove them out of the house to make it on their own. What's going to happen? They're going to freak out, possibly becoming frustrated and angry or shutting down.
> 
> ...


Hm, i can understand your point of view with dogs being allowed to play if you were planning on putting your dog in situations as you mentioned above routinely or even occasionally. Though, if i may point out a few things.

Dog parks (just my opinion) shouldn't be a option even if we are talking about a dog and human friendly, submissive, trained dog. Catching a disease is of high risk in that type of environment not to mention you having to trust any dog owner and dog that would also be in the fenced area. I have heard countless stories of many dog owners talking about how x dog attacked for no reason, killed, got deathly sick or ended up with immense emergency bills due to the association of dog parks. Now granted, who knows how accurate these stories are however in the end the dog loses. (and this is just generally speaking on all dog breeds)

The daycare ordeal is just personal preference but my thoughts are negative towards this as well. You are putting too much trust in someone else to do their job properly. Ensuring all dogs are safe and secure, DA dogs are alone if allowed, etc etc. There may be some great dog day cares out there though i just couldn't trust it. For me, if im going to be gone days i make sure my dogs can come with me. If thats not an option i don't go any place longer than i feel safe with them being in their crates. I realize not everyone is willing to do these options but in my opinion its worth the price i pay just to be certain my dogs are safe and handled properly.

As to doing things such as playing with neighbors dogs, well thats again personal preference with any type of dog. Some will get along some will not. With DA dog breeds, well as you said you have learned recently so i don't feel i need to touch on that subject.

Puppies learn a great deal from their mothers if properly kept before being brought into new homes, separated, etc. Playing doesn't really play a huge role in learning behaviors and how to pick up on signals that other dogs display. Also, keep in mind that genetics will play a larger role in these scenarios than you might realize or think about.

A naturally submissive dog will more often than not submit to those that are dominating. Now this will vary from situation to situation, dog breed to dog breed but as a general rule this is true. A dominate dog will rub the wrong way to another dominate dog. Of course the degree of interaction with dog on dog may vary depending on the course of life you provide or accept with that dog though i would say no matter what situation you are planning, interacting to a point of playing with other dogs isn't really socializing.

As i have said previously i have known dogs to play great with other dogs but lack other essentials. Now if we take it a step further and say you do all the socialization AND play with dogs than you have your essentials and dog friendly play. Though if you want to think about it from that perspective we are again separating the two rather than over lapping them into one set spectrum.

Many people think like you do kane, many. Even people with Ph.D's that are acclaimed in ______ or _____ think that way though for me, it doesn't make it true. I believe its a new aged "popular" way of thinking as it hasn't always been this case. Especially true with Bulldogs and other hard working bred dogs. Now im not suggesting your wrong as it is your opinion and perhaps your experiences tell you that what your saying is correct, im not out to change your thoughts just to educate. If what you are saying works by all means you should continue though keep in mind, especially if you have that thought process with Bulldogs or other DA breeds it will prove against you as it has many many times in history for plenty of others.


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## AFTAN (Jul 5, 2011)

Its pretty useful material man.You described the socialization in dogs in quite different and impressive style.You must mention next time about the toys of dogs too.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

This is a good example of working dogs and how necessary it is for them to work as a team. Without early exposure to each other and constant interaction there is no way this could be possible. There's a bunch of alanos in that pack of hounds as well.






If you have a fighting dog then yeah what's the point of exposure to other dogs, live stock guardians are also socialized as early as possible with the pack and with the livestock so they form a strong bond since they will be working together and protecting the farm animals.

There are many uses for a dog therefore the utility of this dog will dictate what level of socialization it will require. Dogos are also socialized within the pack to form
A strong bond for the hunt. If you need a stand alone guard dog that won't ever see the outside world then perhaps it is not necessary. I have seen first hand what an unconfident fear aggressive dog is and it is the most annoying behavior ever and counter productive.

Here is a ton of articles that discuss various levels of socialization.

Dr. P's Dog Training Library: Puppies


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

AFTAN said:


> Its pretty useful material man.You described the socialization in dogs in quite different and impressive style.You must mention next time about the toys of dogs too.


What were you wanting to know about toys? Toy drive? A little more information on what your looking for i would be glad to help you out or answer any questions.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

When it comes to packs of dogs working together the vital aspect of this is going to be training the dogs together vs separate. Socializing the dogs should be more interactive together though as i have stated in this thread socializing and playing together offers separate goals. While certain conditioning/work out routines will benefit a pack if done together paired with training such as flirt pole, spring, etc playing together isn't always essential. I have personally been around a pack of 5 - 6 hounds that are used for hunting as well as herding. While herding there were usually no more than 3 at a time to do the job, hunting all the hounds were generally used at once. Certain traits of these dogs prohibited play time as a "unit" though exercises and training was started at an early age together as one pack. The end result was just as the video david posted, a pack working together to get the job done. 

Of course as mentioned in my OP, if a working dog will be used as protection of livestock (or herding) socializing method will change slightly focusing more on a broad range of animals for that connection.

I have personally seen unconfident, fear aggressive, unstable dogs as well. I have had my hand in helping rehab dogs to build self confidence and over come fear based aggression. I can say though over the years with my own and others, interaction with playing doesn't play as huge of a role as many believe. Now, others may have their own experiences with their own dogs and as i stated to kane if you found something that has worked by all means continue. However if we take it to the point of working dogs and game dogs the rules will change if your used to dogs with less drive, etc.

As i have also mentioned limiting interaction (limiting of course will vary on situation, dog breeds, etc) can ensure that dogs are more dependent on you and more eager to please you vs more dependent on dog company. This is of course important when we are talking about working class dogs. The more eager they are for your needs the better the result will be as well an aid in training. Limiting is a variable but when we are talking strictly socializing the general rules can be applied with all dogs and the end result will be a confident self assured k9.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> As i have also mentioned limiting interaction (limiting of course will vary on situation, dog breeds, etc) can ensure that dogs are more dependent on you and more eager to please you vs more dependent on dog company. This is of course important when we are talking about working class dogs. The more eager they are for your needs the better the result will be as well an aid in training. Limiting is a variable but when we are talking strictly socializing the general rules can be applied with all dogs and the end result will be a confident self assured k9.


This is something I disagree with--the idea that by limiting a dog's contact with other dogs, they are more eager to please you and more dependent on you.

I'm at work currently, but will take the time to explain why I disagree when I get home.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

It would be silly to socialize a fighting dog if that is what you are going to use the dog for. If you have working class hunters they need to be socialized tremendously in order to achieve a functional Pack, just like you need to heavily socialize a live stock guarding so it will work together with its counterparts and protect the farm animals. Gamedogs are a
Completely different subject, it's like expecting a rottie to love strangers. If someone lives in a community where there are other dogs or people a responsible owner needs to have a controlled interaction environment in order to build confidence so the dog won't seek to destroy everything it fears. Why do we have all these attacks happen? Dogs never walked or exposed to the outside world suddenly escape and kill the first thing they see and bite whoever gets in the way. In my opinion not socializing a dog is creating a ticking time bomb. 

As noted in the video it shows a pack hunting mentality and these are pure working dogs. The mighty Alano is in that pack and without socializing them as pups with all these dogs they could never function because they would go after the other dogs and not serve the purpose. A regular dog owner should have built a basic socialization foundation in the early months of the puppy's life in order to program confidence and acceptance. Dogs communicate better with other dogs than humans, perhaps fighting dogs have been reprogrammed to loose this connectivity with other dogs but to say all working dogs only need humans and no interaction with their kind is a bit unrealistic.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

If your hunting with game bred dogs typically your not hunting with multiple game dogs you are taking one or two out at a time. I could take my two together because they are ok with one another. But I couldn't take mine out with other dogs.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

davidfitness83 said:


> A regular dog owner should have built a basic socialization foundation in the early months of the puppy's life in order to program confidence and acceptance. Dogs communicate better with other dogs than humans, perhaps fighting dogs have been reprogrammed to loose this connectivity with other dogs but to say all working dogs only need humans and no interaction with their kind is a bit unrealistic.


Agreedagreed. And you need to continually socialize the dog and maintain that socialization effort throughout the dog's life. A dog can become unsocialized if you socialize it as a puppy, think, "Ok, I've done my part," and then keep it in your house/backyard/neighborhood where it sees the same things every day.

Also, I read something somewhere about fighting dogs not having the same communication skills with other dogs as most other breeds/dogs. I'll have to find it.

And sorry, I swear I'm not ignoring your post KM or stepping around it. I just don't have the time to devote to what I want to say. Only enough time to type out small blurbs, haha.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Sadie said:


> If your hunting with game bred dogs typically your not hunting with multiple game dogs you are taking one or two out at a time. I could take my two together because they are ok with one another. But I couldn't take mine out with other dogs.


Agree but even if you use one gamebred dog and one hound for tracking the pit needs to be cool with the hound so it catches the boar not the hound right ?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Even Da dog's can be taken out in public but there is a fine line when you talk about socialization. DA dog's for liability reasons cannot be socialized off the leash they can be subjected to a situation and be controlled or taught to behave and focus their instincts elsewhere but they cannot be forced to socialize with other dogs. CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. This is something one has to be able to manage with DA dogs. And there is no way in hell for liability reasons that I am letting one of my dogs loose to play with a dog they don't know. Brief encounter within reasonable distance is one thing but that is as far as it goes with my dogs.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

So then, I guess my question is how do you know you have a DA dog because they are game (and so thus genetically DA, if I'm thinking of this right) versus a dog that is DA because it is not properly socialized and thus not truly "game"?

I'm trying to understand this, because improper socialization can also lead to DA through fear-based aggression and to my completely untrained eye, they CAN look the same.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

davidfitness83 said:


> Agree but even if you use one gamebred dog and one hound for tracking the pit needs to be cool with the hound so it catches the boar not the hound right ?


Yeah if you are taking a game bred anything out to hunt it needs to be ok with the other dog or else the game bred dog could easily be hunting the dog and the boar LMAO!!! Game bred dogs are NOT pack dogs but sometimes they can get along with other dogs different variables surround these situations and even still you have to know that your game bred dog might challenge the other dog at some point. I know people who hunt with game bred dogs and other hunting dogs but I also know people who will only hunt with one game bred dog and that's it.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> Agreedagreed. And you need to continually socialize the dog and maintain that socialization effort throughout the dog's life. A dog can become unsocialized if you socialize it as a puppy, think, "Ok, I've done my part," and then keep it in your house/backyard/neighborhood where it sees the same things every day.
> 
> Also, I read something somewhere about fighting dogs not having the same communication skills with other dogs as most other breeds/dogs. I'll have to find it.
> 
> And sorry, I swear I'm not ignoring your post KM or stepping around it. I just don't have the time to devote to what I want to say. Only enough time to type out small blurbs, haha.


There are couple of dogs in my neighborhood that are never taken outside I crap my pants everytime I walk by their yard because I know if that dog got loose it's a wrap for me or Bernie. Im talking about some vicious golden retrievers that growl like lions, a huge boxer and a big GSD I mean I have practically walked every single route almost everytime of the day and I have never ever seen those dogs outside. I do my part by taking Bernie near people, cars and loud noises to keep his confidence up. I would never let him meet a strange dog on walks but I really want to emphasize that people are not evil and even if there is a dog or dogs in the street Bernie better listen to me.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Yeah if you are taking a game bred anything out to hunt it needs to be ok with the other dog or else the game bred dog could easily be hunting the dog and the boar LMAO!!! Game bred dogs are NOT pack dogs but sometimes they can get along with other dogs different variables surround these situations and even still you have to know that your game bred dog might challenge the other dog at some point. I know people who hunt with game bred dogs and other hunting dogs but I also know people who will only hunt with one game bred dog and that's it.


If the hunter can track the game and let the gamebred dog loose to catch it alone then I'm sure that's all it needs. Imagine the boar chasing your butt while your two dogs are tied? Lol


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)




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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Hm i think you should take a step back for a moment and understand that im not saying these dogs do not need to be socialized with other dogs or humans, in fact i am saying they do need to be. We are in agreement that dogs do need to be socialized. In your last post david it seems you believe im saying working dogs do not need that interaction. The difference you and i have (at least, i believe anyway) when it comes to this subject is how you socialize and to what degree do you allow interaction and every day scenarios with other dogs.

I have not said dogs should not interact and be socialized with other k9s, what i am saying though is by limitation the drive to please you (the human) rises and the dependency on dog to dog companionship will drop. Now perhaps you disagree completely with that and that is perfectly fine. However i have personally seen the results of what i speak so i do know regardless of "popular guides" it works.

Modern training and socializing techniques may work though many of these are either false or blown too far. In example, Cesar Millan demonstrates (or portrays to say the least) that no matter the type of dog you own all dogs can co-exist in a pack. The show portrays to a certain level that these dogs can do this without proper supervision though it may display the "warning" on the lower part of the screen when showing the pack of dogs or introducing a new dog to the pack that lives as one. We all know there are plenty of dog breeds that this just couldn't happen with. We also know by rolling a dog over on the side while hovering above the dog for submission actually doesn't happen in the wild nor does the dog take it for how the human would mean it to be. Meaning, this type of technique can cause much more harm emotionally to the dog than intended.

Granted that is a show though i know of several websites, trainers, etc that take these methods and teach people that this is a proper way of handling ______ situations. Now we are not talking about training on this subject but that was just one example of a "new aged" solution that doesn't exactly work well for the relationship of handler - dog. 

The biggest point of "new aged" thinking and i bump heads when it comes to socializing is the playing aspect. A dog does not need to play with other dogs to be socialized. I won't go into this again just because i have already made my points on this already in a few posts of mine. 

As stated above, i have personally seen in both my dogs and others that what i speak of socializing works. If you chose to disagree that is perfectly fine though i have seen the results. Socializing by "meet, greet, leave" when it comes to dog - dog interaction does provide a great deal of information for the dog. A genetically stable, well bred dog combined with this you will not have any future issues. Am i saying i never have allowed pups to play with others? Of course not, though i know that i have done this far less than most dog owners and i can say i've never had a dog that was anxiety, unstable, fear aggressive or any other condition most would associate with this. The only "issues" i have had is with DA and that is genetics not due to lack of social skills and thanks to training, manageable to a point. (theres a line for everything)


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

k8nkane said:


> So then, I guess my question is how do you know you have a DA dog because they are game (and so thus genetically DA, if I'm thinking of this right) versus a dog that is DA because it is not properly socialized and thus not truly "game"?
> 
> I'm trying to understand this, because improper socialization can also lead to DA through fear-based aggression and to my completely untrained eye, they CAN look the same.


Well DA is not the same thing as Game. Game bred is really a pointless term used to label a dog who stems from game tested dogs. I don't really like to call my dog's game anything. IMO my dogs are just APBT's who come from a long line of proven box dogs. I was told by a dog man that there is no such thing as game bred. Either they are Game (proven fighting dogs) or they are APBT's. He told me not to use the term Game with these dogs unless we are referring to fighting dogs. So it's a bad habit and sometimes I use the word game bred when really no one should.

You are correct that there are dogs who due to lack of socialization develop fear based aggression towards other animals. But these dogs will usually tuck their tails show no confidence bark and growl excessively out of fear.

My dogs when they see another dog get happy tails they bark but their tails go 1,000 miles an hour it would appear to someone who does not know my dogs that my dogs want to play but my dogs version of playing would turn deadly for the other dog very quickly. My dogs will show no fear dominance yes they will try to dominate each other and even when they play I have to step in you will notice with bulldogs they are always trying to one up each other or trying to dominate each other the problem comes in when the other dog won't submit or that both dogs are fighting for control or ownership over each other that is why these dogs will fight so quickly and without warning.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Well DA is not the same thing as Game. Game bred is really a pointless term used to label a dog who stems from game tested dogs. I don't really like to call my dog's game anything. IMO my dogs are just APBT's who come from a long line of proven box dogs. I was told by a dog man that there is no such thing as game bred. Either they are Game (proven fighting dogs) or they are APBT's. He told me not to use the term Game with these dogs unless we are referring to fighting dogs. So it's a bad habit and sometimes I use the word game bred when really no one should.
> 
> You are correct that there are dogs who due to lack of socialization develop fear based aggression towards other animals. But these dogs will usually tuck their tails show no confidence bark and growl excessively out of fear.
> 
> My dogs when they see another dog get happy tails they bark but their tails go 1,000 miles an hour it would appear to someone who does not know my dogs that my dogs want to play but my dogs version of playing would turn deadly for the other dog very quickly. My dogs will show no fear dominance yes they will try to dominate each other and even when they play I have to step in you will notice with bulldogs they are always trying to one up each other or trying to dominate each other the problem comes in when the other dog won't submit or that both dogs are fighting for control or ownership over each other that is why these dogs will fight so quickly and without warning.


:goodpost:


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

So If I understand correctly you are stating that by not allowing dogs to play or interact as much they will want to please you more and depend less on wanting to interact with other dogs?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

davidfitness83 said:


> So If I understand correctly you are stating that by not allowing dogs to play or interact as much they will want to please you more and depend less on wanting to interact with other dogs?


Some what.. In short..

Dogs playing with dogs - While *can be* beneficial is not needed for socializing as simply meeting, smelling and small interaction consistently will prove results. Of course this is just the dog aspect, environments, humans, etc the dog needs to be exposed to all sorts of situations to be well adjusted and confident. The biggest point i am making is playing with other dogs, heavily interacted on a day to day basis does not equal or amount to the same thing as socialization. What i am saying when it comes to this particular piece of socializing, playing and socialization are separate. Not one of the same.

As to the working dog and handler aspect yes, the less interaction (im not saying *no* interaction as all dogs need to be socialized) the dog has with other dogs on an every day basis there is an increase on dependability on you therefore the eager to work for you does go up.

Now, am i saying that if a dog plays with other dog(s) say once a week will not pay attention to commands, etc? No. I am not. However i am not talking about pets here i am talking about working bred dogs. Dogs kept together, interaction with each other on an every day basis, plays together so on so forth there is going to be a certain level (small to significant) of dependency on human (you) dropped as they thrive and depend more on dog - dog companionship. Are there exceptions? Yes.

You will also note that in my OP i have acknowledged that if you are planning on working with packs the levels of interaction does need to change to some degree.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

hunting dogs are kept together though, how would or what can they do to isolate them ? 

Do you not see hunting dogs as working dogs ?


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

"As to the working dog and handler aspect yes, the less interaction (im not saying no interaction as all dogs need to be socialized) the dog has with other dogs on an every day basis there is an increase on dependability on you therefore the eager to work for you does go up."

How can a hunting dog succeed on the field by being kept isolated from its hunting team?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

davidfitness83 said:


> hunting dogs are kept together though, how would or what can they do to isolate them ?
> 
> Do you not see hunting dogs as working dogs ?


Intentional or not you know how i feel about hunting dogs therefore you know the answer and this is just going to end in back and forth. For most of your questions if you re read all my posts you will find the answers. While i can go into this particular question further you and i both know this will turn into another bickering and pointless back and forth. With that said just agree to disagree and move on from this as you have already i believe made your points on this thread. Chose to view this as you wish though as in my OP i stated i want this kept educational and informative rather than being moved to VIP for something pointless.

This thread has potential to be an excellent read for newbies or those seeking answers and in the general forum its an excellent place for a source of information. I'm not going to ruin it because you feel the need to keep going. (you know how that *always* turns out so don't play naive)


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I am trying to keep it educational but im confused by your postings. Perhaps if you specified the intended use for the working dog it would clear that up. I agree with you on not meeting strange dogs I utilize scenario socialization, I never want my dog to think it's cool to run up to try to play with another strange dog on the street so I never allowed that scenario to take place. In a sense im proving yor point that perhaps in the street while walking all my dog needs is me. I however also established a situational variation that if I walk any dog in the backyard it's safe and he can play but never dominate. My dog barely plays with other dogs, I would never take him to a dog park. If he plays with another dog once a month it is a lot there are only a few family dogs he is allowed to play with on my terms.


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I think a good advice for the newbies is to take your pup to a carefully monitored puppy social by a professional trainer as soon as it is done with the shots for at least 2-3 sessions. After that, it should be all leashed obedience classes in front of strange dogs and people.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

OK, Km, I'm home and took the time while at work to write some notes on why I disagree that limiting social interaction for your dog increases their dependency on you and their motivation to work for you (or increases their eager to please nature).

^ if that doesn't sound like what you meant, please correct me now.

And don't let David run you off because I really do want to discuss this with you, LOL.

Shoot, just realized the time stamp, haha. *slaps self* Oh well, typing them up anyways.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I have been socializing Vendetta since she was 6wks old. I got her at 4wks. She goes everyplace with me. I have had her in tracking classes, rally classes, agility and flyball. She knows how to behave in public to ignore other dogs this is because I have exposed her to everything I could find. I take her stores, hospitals, parks, festivels. I dont let her play with other dogs anymore I stopped that when she was about 15mos. We quit flyball before she decided to turn on another dog. Ity was good for her to work with them and it was perfect for me to work on her leave it command. 

Socialization does not = dog interaction time.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok, so first, I want to say that it's obvious we come from two different backgrounds with dogs. I have more familiarity with "pet dogs" and the use of "new age" methods (as per your quotes there) because that is what I have experience with and what has worked for me, and you clearly have more familiarity and experience with "working dogs" and more traditional methods. Whatever works.  So, I know we're coming from two different ends of the spectrum, I'm just trying to figure your viewpoint out and why you feel it's necessary to limit a dog's interaction with another in order to increase their dependency on you and their desire to work for you.

These are the reasons I disagree with it (sorry if they're a bit haphazard, if you need clarification just ask):

1) We already control and provide for every aspect of our dog's life. We determine when and what they eat, what they are allowed to do and when, we provide them shelter and companionship. From the time they are a puppy, dogs are dependent on us and, IMO, it's hard for them to become any MORE dependent on us.

2) Dogs have been domesticated for 10s of thousands of years. We've developed a bond with them that is incomparable to any other domesticated animal, period. For most of those several thousand years (in fact, up until a little over a hundred years ago) dogs were primarily used as tools. Dogs had to earn their place in our lives and if they didn't WANT to work with us, then we didn't keep them around--it's been that way since the very beginning. So, dogs already have millions of generations of dogs with a desire to work together with their humans. It's already BUILT IN.

3) IMO, an eager to please attitude can be built on, but the genetic foundation has to be there. There are some dogs that are more stoic with their humans and no amount of limiting their interaction with other dogs is going to do anything about that. In fact, I fail to see how that has anything to do with it. Feel free to clarify because it's late and my brain is tired from work BS.

4) If you have a dog that enjoys the company of other dogs, it doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy your company any less. In fact, it's been conclusively shown that the majority of dogs value their human's companionship over other dogs--probably due to the effects of several thousand years of domestication and our efforts to employ them as valuable tools used for guarding, hunting, herding, what have you. And quite frankly, when you think about it, it just doesn't make any sense for them to value a dog's company over ours--when we provide them with EVERYTHING versus another dog providing play and ... that's it.

5) If you have a dog with a high desire to interact/play with other dogs, you can actually use that to increase their focus on you by moderating their access to other dogs and making them WORK for their interactions with other dogs. I've employed this with Kane; I make him do several commands before getting to interact with another dogs, especially when he's amped up. It calms him down, gets him focused on me and how he should be behaving, and then he's rewarded when he's calm by getting what he wanted in the first place.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Sadie said:


> you will notice with bulldogs they are always trying to one up each other or trying to dominate each other the problem comes in when the other dog won't submit or that both dogs are fighting for control or ownership over each other that is why these dogs will fight so quickly and without warning.


I stopped taking Kane to doggy daycare at ~year old because of an incident in Petsmart when a lab greeted Kane fine and then tried to initiate play very rudely by putting his paws on Kane's shoulder. I managed to quickly step between them, basically shoving the lab to the side, as Kane went stiff and growled. The lady didn't mind, knew her lab was being rude, and I appreciated Kane not just going off on the dog, but taking the time to growl a warning.

I believe socialization has helped with that--although I know it's by no means a certainty, anymore.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

MY MIKADO said:


> I have been socializing Vendetta since she was 6wks old. I got her at 4wks. She goes everyplace with me. I have had her in tracking classes, rally classes, agility and flyball. She knows how to behave in public to ignore other dogs this is because I have exposed her to everything I could find. I take her stores, hospitals, parks, festivels. I dont let her play with other dogs anymore I stopped that when she was about 15mos. We quit flyball before she decided to turn on another dog. Ity was good for her to work with them and it was perfect for me to work on her leave it command.
> 
> Socialization does not = dog interaction time.


:goodpost:



k8nkane said:


> Ok, so first, I want to say that it's obvious we come from two different backgrounds with dogs. I have more familiarity with "pet dogs" and the use of "new age" methods (as per your quotes there) because that is what I have experience with and what has worked for me, and you clearly have more familiarity and experience with "working dogs" and more traditional methods. Whatever works.  So, I know we're coming from two different ends of the spectrum, I'm just trying to figure your viewpoint out and why you feel it's necessary to limit a dog's interaction with another in order to increase their dependency on you and their desire to work for you.
> 
> These are the reasons I disagree with it (sorry if they're a bit haphazard, if you need clarification just ask):
> 
> ...


Well first and foremost if you do note a few of my posts now have gone over how genetics does play an important part of a dogs overall drive and willingness. A dominate dog will be dominate, submissive will be submissive, prey drive will have prey drive, etc.

I suppose a good example of what im talking about when it comes to socialization, dog interaction, playing with other dogs, etc would be to look at police k9 training programs and military training k9 programs. There is reason why these dogs are limited to dog interaction however trained, perform exercises, etc with other dogs around. These dogs are sound, confident, full of drive and obey handlers. There is a military k9 training facility about 40 minutes away from me and i have spoken on several different occasions one of the trainers for the program. Im not fully familiar with each individual training program out there but i know that they get their dogs after being socialized, basic training is completed. What they do there is test, keep and train these dogs to be deployed for whatever the needs may be. They do not allow these dogs to play with each other or interact except when on the field training or performing various exercises. The reason being has much to do with what i have already been speaking of.

Now eager to please is one thing though when we are talking about working dogs the drive for any given work is either bred into them or it isnt. They have it or they dont. Its not really something you can "teach" a dog to do.

I'm not really sure if i can explain the rest any clearer for you. Maybe a nights rest would help that thought.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

davidfitness83 said:


> It would be silly to socialize a fighting dog if that is what you are going to use the dog for. If you have working class hunters they need to be socialized tremendously in order to achieve a functional Pack, just like you need to heavily socialize a live stock guarding so it will work together with its counterparts and protect the farm animals. Gamedogs are a
> Completely different subject, it's like expecting a rottie to love strangers. If someone lives in a community where there are other dogs or people a responsible owner needs to have a controlled interaction environment in order to build confidence so the dog won't seek to destroy everything it fears. Why do we have all these attacks happen? Dogs never walked or exposed to the outside world suddenly escape and kill the first thing they see and bite whoever gets in the way. In my opinion not socializing a dog is creating a ticking time bomb.
> 
> As noted in the video it shows a pack hunting mentality and these are pure working dogs. The mighty Alano is in that pack and without socializing them as pups with all these dogs they could never function because they would go after the other dogs and not serve the purpose. A regular dog owner should have built a basic socialization foundation in the early months of the puppy's life in order to program confidence and acceptance. Dogs communicate better with other dogs than humans, perhaps fighting dogs have been reprogrammed to loose this connectivity with other dogs but to say all working dogs only need humans and no interaction with their kind is a bit unrealistic.


Why are you talking about hunting dogs when this is an pit bull forum? We are not talking hound here we are talking pit bulls. Hounds or hog dogs do not need to be socialize with other dogs only the one they live with and work with. Being social in your own pack of dogs is not the same and meeting and greeting outside dogs. Two totally difference concepts.
Can you stop with the comparison to hunting packs like hounds?

Look KMdogs has it pretty much spot on. You do not have to have your dog go and meet other dogs to socialize them properly. I will let my pups play with other pups on leash but that stops at about 6-8 months of age. No matter what breed of dog they do not need to play with other dogs to have a fulfilled life. NO BREED belongs in dog parks they are horrible for man reasons that I will not get into in this thread. Meeting strange dogs can lead to aggression and with a DA breed like we have it is not worth the risk!

Now lets talk working dogs............ Letting a dog who is being raised for working sports like Obed, Agility, Schutzhund, Rally, or what ever it is, play with other dogs can be counter productive. If you are a serious competitor you want full attention on you as a handler not on everything else. I teach my puppies very early on that they are not to focus on anything else besides me. If they look away I give a little pop and as soon as they look back at me I praise and feed. They need to ignore all dogs and people. By letting them visit people and other dogs I am teaching them it is ok to lose focus on me and play with what every they want. I should be what they want not another dog or person. A dog who lives out in a kennel and is removed from house life is far more willing to please than a dog who lives with you every second of the day. They crave that attention and give you more focus. The top competitors of sports like Schutzhund do not have dogs living in the house until they are retired. They all love outside in kennels so they look forward to learning and being engaged with you. It is a lot more complicated than that but you can get the idea. My pups live in the house till about 8 months then they get moves out to the dog runs and get out when I work them. When they retire they can come live in the house but not until then.

Now most people here do not have working dogs and do not need to keep them separated however you still do not need to have they meet every one and everything to socialize them properly. A confident dog does not have to have play buddies they can get what they need from you.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> Why are you talking about hunting dogs when this is an pit bull forum? We are not talking hound here we are talking pit bulls. Hounds or hog dogs do not need to be socialize with other dogs only the one they live with and work with. Being social in your own pack of dogs is not the same and meeting and greeting outside dogs. Two totally difference concepts.
> Can you stop with the comparison to hunting packs like hounds?
> 
> Look KMdogs has it pretty much spot on. You do not have to have your dog go and meet other dogs to socialize them properly. I will let my pups play with other pups on leash but that stops at about 6-8 months of age. No matter what breed of dog they do not need to play with other dogs to have a fulfilled life. NO BREED belongs in dog parks they are horrible for man reasons that I will not get into in this thread. Meeting strange dogs can lead to aggression and with a DA breed like we have it is not worth the risk!
> ...


:goodpost: well said!!


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Well there sporting dogs and working dogs. The working pit bull is a fightig dog no? I can build drive on any dog by caging it for a couple of days lol and putting it back in the cage again and again. my friend thy actively competes said the same thing about sport dogs getting caged without activity to get them hyper as hell. 

Nobody said anything about socializing legit gamebred dogs or at least I didn't and how many newbies buy gamebred dogs and not know they will kill each other ?

Half of those problem dogs in the dog whisper are dogs that are never exercised and they go nuts running around and biting crap. Now if a dog knows how to bite a sleeve or a bite suit a hyper pent up energy dog can be taught to redirect and channel it's energy on that activity. I think this is indirect agitation if you ask me.


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

Well now that I am back for bits and pieces of time... this thread has grabbed my attention... As someone who has done this both ways... I agree that socialization is not absolutely necessary to have a solid well balanced APBT... Now other breeds I will not speak for and I wont go to the dog prks subject but APBTs do not need other dogs... That said I have had dogs in the past that I have socialized from a pup through adulthood and currently have two that have been socialized as pups but now that they are adults socialization with other dogs is minimal.

Socializing a pup is important so that they understand the logistics of heirarchy and to build confidence in the ability to interact properly. Most of this in my opinion happens or should happen in the first six months of life. Staying on APBTs... Once the six month mark or so is hit this breed does not need or crave other dogs nor does it suffer from not being socialized with other dogs. Some will say they believe that socialization should happen throughout life and that is ok too IF you are aware of the possibilities of this breed. Working dogs are different FOCUS FOCUS FOCUS is what is needed in these dogs and socialization only brings confusion to focus as so perfectly stated by performance kennels...

Now current dogs I have neither of them are strictly working. Sarge at 2 and 1/2 years old and does some weight pull... He lives inside and for all intensive purposes serves as a pet and companion. He as a pup (unitl 9 months) would play with other dogs but only in construction environments that were well supervised. This is not something that he does anymore and in my opinion his obedience to me is 100 times better than ever. Whether this has to do with less socialization or added training since who knows but I am not changing things now. He is allowed on very rare occasions to play with two other dogs that I know but only one on one supervised and it is rare.

Nikita is 1 and 1/2 years and was also socialized frequently as a pup until about 6 months old. She began sniping at other dogs and was stopped from most socialization. She is absolutely 100% DA and since about 3 months ago does not socialize with any other dogs ever except those who live with her and she is fine with that. Her attentiveness to me however did not change one bit but she is much better at focusing on me then Sarge and always has been so I didnt want a change. 

Neither of them are allowed to greet unknown dogs on walks or wherever else but that does not mean they are not socialized. They go to Petco and Petsmart and parades and other events... They see other dogs and stranger people but they do not face to face interact... Point is they see them and know that its not going to happen and focus on me instead...

Socialization is important for all breeds but in this breed only to a certain extent or age. This breed was not breed for hunting in packs or anything like that... They were bred primarily for two reasons: 1.Their uncanny ability to be the most loyal companion and 2. Their game... Not because they were good pack or social dogs...


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I agree my dog is a driveless bully and he stopped puppy social after two Sessions because he outgrew the class. When someone mentions working dogs the topic will be broad, a true working pit bull is a box dog that was it's existence I thought the OP was talking about general working breeds. If we are talking about gamebred pit bulls I wouldn't take a chance off leash.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

dogs meet other dogs over the course of seconds, they arent people. a dog can comunicate a 100 things with just a few seconds glance with another dog.

dogs mainly communicate with smell and facial expression with very little to anything else. a bark tells very little as apposed to thier ears.


my point is, k9 interaction IS being achieved even with just a few seconds. no need for hours at the dog park.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

the topic has to do with APBT's though i made the topic broader for any type of dogs just for the sake of argument as the general rules can be applied throughout. (unless you want to talk about game dogs, obviously rules change but thats a given) not everyone on this forum has an APBT, for that matter many on here dont even own dogs currently so i wanted to make sure that when someone read it, it could be useful for anyone not just a specific dog breed. (especially someone new to dogs all together)


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> the topic has to do with APBT's though i made the topic broader for any type of dogs just for the sake of argument as the general rules can be applied throughout. (unless you want to talk about game dogs, obviously rules change but thats a given) not everyone on this forum has an APBT, for that matter many on here dont even own dogs currently so i wanted to make sure that when someone read it, it could be useful for anyone not just a specific dog breed. (especially someone new to dogs all together)


Thank you for clarifying it for everyone else I thought i was the crazy one lol I do part of your theory so I agree with you man.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

davidfitness83 said:


> Thank you for clarifying it for everyone else I thought i was the crazy one lol I do part of your theory so I agree with you man.


whoa whoa whoa you what?!?! :rofl::rofl: I believe this is the *first* time we have actually agreed on a topic? man. lol


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> whoa whoa whoa you what?!?! :rofl::rofl: I believe this is the *first* time we have actually agreed on a topic? man. lol


Don't get used to it haha Jk you brought up a good point that I agreed with I actually had to re read what you wrote so I could understand what you meant. I limit the dog interaction in public places I find it that it creates a great habit so I don't have to worry about other dogs. It's the other dogs I worry about because most owners think it's cute to see their dog growling and barking at mine grrrr the scary part is that Bernie doesn't make a single expression.


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