# Blue color is not considered apbt but amstaff



## Mo-Jo (Feb 19, 2010)

I read an article about pitbulls by diane jessup which i thought was very interesting, in regards to the so called rare blue pits, or blue pits.

Truth # 4

There is no "rare" pit bull color. And the color of a dog's nose does not indicate it is a certain "type" of pit bull. Color is simply an expression of genetic code concerning coat color.

It might surprise you to learn that today the so called "rare blue pit bull" is in fact not rare, and not a *pit bull!* The blue color is a dilute of black, and occurs in the* American Staffordshire breed*. How it popped up in those dogs is any one's guess. Blue is a mastiff color, not a bulldog color. (There are no blue English bulldogs, but the English mastiff did used to come in blue, as do some other mastiff breeds).

Here is what Louis Colby has to say about the "blue" dogs, and I can't think of any better authority: "As a boy growing up, and listening to multiple conversations between my father and visitors such as Collagan, Heinzl Vose, Donovan, and other dogmen from all over the country..never did the word blue appear. There never was a blue Colby dog in my father's yard, nor mine.To my knowledge there was never a blue colored dog reported in any match or sporting event."


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Blue will always be debated. Now we know as a *FACT* that blue is a dilute of black so as black obviously appears in the APBT it would seem blue is possible and probably in APBT lines.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Blue is the dilute of black no argument there, just that some saw it pop out and thought cool lets breed this color, and there you go the new fad and since people charged more for this "rare" color more people bred to make more money and there you go the Blue epidemic was born.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I don't know how much I believe that blue is an AmStaff color. If you figure that AmStaffs go back exclusively to APBTs, it had to be there in the breed anyway. Most likely isolating the gene pool by closing the AKC studbook caused the recessive dilution trait to become more pronounced. But if you think about it, the AKC standard actually _discourages_ the diluted pigment (as well as rednose) wheras the APBT standards don't touch on color except to discourage merle. So by that logic, would blue be an APBT color more than an AmStaff color? All the top-winning AmStaffs seem to be red or brindle with strong black pigment, but in the UKC, its mostly blue fawns.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

My thought is according to what I've read on gpb about the blue coloration (thus far) it is a dilute of black. I get that, I also get it's not a 'rare' color - I see them all over in my area. What I don't get is why we are constantly reminded blue isn't it's own color - that it's 'just a dilute'. If it's been consistently producing through multiple generations without hiccups - wouldn't that make it it's own color? 

If it takes 7 consistent generations for a mix to become it's own breed. How many will it take before the blue gets recognition of being it's own color for apbt or amstaff? The UKC sees it as fit.

Also, if Blue is a dilute of black... Then what is chocolate?


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## Corpsewater (May 22, 2010)

In regards to the poster above who said that AmStaffs come from the same stock as APBTs, you are both right and wrong. The American Staffordshire was indeed bred from the American Pit Bull Terrier, but they were bred differently by using Mastiff lines. The American Pit Bull Terrier was bred from Bulldogs and Terriers. Blue is not a Bulldog color. The American Staffordshire was bred from Bulldogs and (occasionally) Mastiffs. Blue is a Mastiff color. So it is entirely possible that the blue gene would not show up in APBTs, but would show itself in AmStaffs.


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

Corpsewater said:


> In regards to the poster above who said that AmStaffs come from the same stock as APBTs, you are both right and wrong. The American Staffordshire was indeed bred from the American Pit Bull Terrier, but they were bred differently by using Mastiff lines. The American Pit Bull Terrier was bred from Bulldogs and Terriers. Blue is not a Bulldog color. The American Staffordshire was bred from Bulldogs and (occasionally) Mastiffs. Blue is a Mastiff color. So it is entirely possible that the blue gene would not show up in APBTs, but would show itself in AmStaffs.


Where in the hell is that coming from? You are wrong.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

This is getting to be a very interesting debate here and would love to see more. I can see it from both angles here.. so please can someone find a link to the historical value of the blue color?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Corpsewater said:


> In regards to the poster above who said that AmStaffs come from the same stock as APBTs, you are both right and wrong. The American Staffordshire was indeed bred from the American Pit Bull Terrier, but they were bred differently by using Mastiff lines. The American Pit Bull Terrier was bred from Bulldogs and Terriers. Blue is not a Bulldog color. The American Staffordshire was bred from Bulldogs and (occasionally) Mastiffs. Blue is a Mastiff color. So it is entirely possible that the blue gene would not show up in APBTs, but would show itself in AmStaffs.


No actually when the AKC would not register the Pitbull due to reputation of the dogs as fighting dogs, however the UKC had started for the American pitbull and the AKC didn't want to loose out on all the money to be made with a dog that is registered and owned by so many so they started registering them as Staffordshire Terriers, but due to name conflicts they ended up being American Staffordshire Terriers.

Well then thru the AKC the dogs where bred for show rather than the working purpose of the APBT. The APBT maintained its working figure and the Amstaff developed into a Show style dog.

As far as Blue goes the APBT can come in blue.. Since they can come in black.. Blue was actually unacceptable in the AKC AmStaffs. The standard for the AmStaff calls for a defiantly black nose. So you can't have blues. However now a days you do see blues winning and no regard to the standard due to the popularity of the color.


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## PrairieMoonPits (Dec 16, 2009)

american_pit13 said:


> No actually when the AKC would not register the Pitbull due to reputation of the dogs as fighting dogs, however the UKC had started for the American pitbull and the AKC didn't want to loose out on all the money to be madewith a dog that is registered and owned by so many so they started registering them and Staffordshire Terriers, but due to name conflicts they ended up being American Staffordshire Terriers.
> 
> Well then thru the AKC the dogs where bred for show rather than working purpose as the APBT. The APBT maintained its working figure and the Amstaff developed into a Show style dog.
> 
> As far as Blue goes the APBT can come in blue.. Since they can come in black.. Blue was actually unacceptable in the AKC AmStaffs. The standard for the AmStaff calls for a defiantly black nose. So you can't have blues. However now a days you do see blues winning and no regard to thhe standard due to the popularity of the color.


:goodpost: Great post Holly could not have said it better myself  :woof: there was never once a mastiff used to make the AST.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

I think what most people don't realize either is that genes mutate a lot. Genes that cause changes to colors or to other visible things are more noticeable. So when a color pops up instead of thinking it's a recessive or a new mutation they instantly think the dogs must be mixed with something. Since I used to breed rats I dealt with new mutations more often. Like there used to be only short haired rats and now there are long haired ones. They didn't breed with other animals to get long hair or other types of rats because they aren't interbreedable. It is a recessive gene just like blue. There weren't always blue rats either.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

american_pit13 said:


> No actually when the AKC would not register the Pitbull due to reputation of the dogs as fighting dogs, however the UKC had started for the American pitbull and the AKC didn't want to loose out on all the money to be madewith a dog that is registered and owned by so many so they started registering them and Staffordshire Terriers, but due to name conflicts they ended up being American Staffordshire Terriers.
> 
> Well then thru the AKC the dogs where bred for show rather than working purpose as the APBT. The APBT maintained its working figure and the Amstaff developed into a Show style dog.
> 
> As far as Blue goes the APBT can come in blue.. Since they can come in black.. Blue was actually unacceptable in the AKC AmStaffs. The standard for the AmStaff calls for a defiantly black nose. So you can't have blues. However now a days you do see blues winning and no regard to thhe standard due to the popularity of the color.


:goodpost: thank you you saved me a lot of typing....

For her to say blue is not an APBT color but ASt color just adds to the long list of BS Diane talks about on her site.....
I wish Tara was here she had all the great articles about blue gamebred dogs! They did happen and there were a few that were matched.
The color was not desired and was culled at birth or not matched but it was there. It became popular and then an explosions of blue mixed breeds being called APBT's took off, then you have the creation of the bully. Ok I skipped a few steps and some history but that is it in a nut shell.
Do not go by what Diane says as cold hard facts, it is more the opinion of Diane not real facts.

Interesting that last time I talked about her she called me, I wonder if she will call me again. Has anyone else who disagreed with her get a phone call? just wondering...... lmao


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## Mom_of_Kambo (Nov 11, 2009)

The Mastiff is the ancestor (through the early bulldogs) of the modern APBT... So wouldn't that mean blue could be in either or AmStaffs or APBTs?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Yeah, I want to see some evidence on the AmStaffs bred along Mastiff lines assertion. All the AmStaff pedigrees I've bothered to follow go back to gamebred dogs at some point. I've yet to see one go back to a Mastiff, except those lines that have been paper-hung, in which case I'm thinking primarily of UKC/ADBA dogs.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

I'd like to know who this Diane lady is & where she's getting her info from? Sounds like a nit wit to me, jmo


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## Mom_of_Kambo (Nov 11, 2009)

I've never heard anything good about her!


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

From what I've read she is an excellent trainer but living on the other side of the world from you guys makes it hard to know what to believe. That said, she should probably refrain from presenting her opinions as fact. There is some really interesting stuff on her site but the Amstaff/Mastiff thing just strikes me as ridiculous.


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## Bethb2007 (Jul 5, 2009)

I am sure I have replied on this topic before, but I will again. Of course it is just my opinion/thought, but here goes...

I believe that present day, the blue color in pitbulls is attributed to amstaff blood. Maybe 90 years ago, there were blue game-bred dogs, but 99% of the ones seen nowadays can be traced back to ast blood in the pedigree. It is a dilute color, and IMO does not just pop up. 
If you go back far enough in the pedigree you will see amstaff in most blue dogs pedigrees. I have heard "stories" of people with blue dogs that are pure gamebred dogs, such as Lonzo, Chinaman, eli and other lines....However, when this supposed dilute color just shows up, it is usually in people's yards that are not well known or newbies ...which leads me to think "hung papers". Since it is a little strange to me that breeders like Lonzo, Boudreaux, ect breed blalc to black for many generations, but blue does not just "pop" up in their lines, directly from their yards. 

Now when I see a nice looking blue apbt on the street or at a show, do I think AMSTAFF? No, I think show bred pit bull, because most blue dogs are pitterstaffs. I personally don't consider Amstaff a four letter word like many APBT people do.

I actually do not care for the solid blues much anymore myself, as it seems to be a favorite newbie color and many backyard breeders and ambullies specialize in it. 

Can a blue dog be "game"? Yes, if all that is in there is amstaff and pit bull, yes they could be, but are they gamebred....No, not in my opinion. 

Can there be athletic, correct, hard working blue dogs? Yes, there is, I have seen them and owned them.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

There's an article in the ADBA Gazette this month which references a blue dog from way back in the day. I'd be inclined to believe they existed. Just like I think if you inbreed enough, you can bring out blue just like any other recessive trait. I do not assert that there are a lot of pure gamebred blue dogs nowadays -- I think a lot do go back to AmStaff -- but I don't necessarily believe that all of them have to be AmStaff-bred. I tend to take DJ statements with a grain of salt anyway.


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## NinaThePitbull (Feb 10, 2010)

american_pit13 said:


> Blue will always be debated. Now we know as a *FACT* that blue is a dilute of black so as black obviously appears in the APBT it would seem blue is possible and probably in APBT lines.


Simple, and direct. I share this view until I read anything credible stating otherwise.



gamer said:


> Blue is the dilute of black no argument there, just that some saw it pop out and thought cool lets breed this color, and there you go the new fad and since people charged more for this "rare" color more people bred to make more money and there you go the Blue epidemic was born.


Love the way ypu put things plainly yet to the point. Where have you been?



bahamutt99 said:


> I don't know how much I believe that blue is an AmStaff color. If you figure that AmStaffs go back exclusively to APBTs, it had to be there in the breed anyway. Most likely isolating the gene pool by closing the AKC studbook caused the recessive dilution trait to become more pronounced. But if you think about it, the AKC standard actually _discourages_ the diluted pigment (as well as rednose) wheras the APBT standards don't touch on color except to discourage merle. So by that logic, would blue be an APBT color more than an AmStaff color? All the top-winning AmStaffs seem to be red or brindle with strong black pigment, but in the UKC, its mostly blue fawns.


With posts like these, this is becoming a fantastic thread, even though the topic has been discussed before...great info.



Lex's Guardian said:


> My thought is according to what I've read on gpb about the blue coloration (thus far) it is a dilute of black. I get that, I also get it's not a 'rare' color - I see them all over in my area. What I don't get is why we are constantly reminded blue isn't it's own color - that it's 'just a dilute'. If it's been consistently producing through multiple generations without hiccups - wouldn't that make it it's own color?
> 
> If it takes 7 consistent generations for a mix to become it's own breed. How many will it take before the blue gets recognition of being it's own color for apbt or amstaff? The UKC sees it as fit.
> 
> Also, if Blue is a dilute of black... Then what is chocolate?


Great point to ponder, as well as the chocolate color question being raised. Great post, at first I thought you were a regular petbull owner as myself, I see more and more now that you are pretty knowledgeable and need to pay attention more when you write. Great post. I could learn a lot from you.



Corpsewater said:


> In regards to the poster above who said that AmStaffs come from the same stock as APBTs, you are both right and wrong. The American Staffordshire was indeed bred from the American Pit Bull Terrier, but they were bred differently by using Mastiff lines. The American Pit Bull Terrier was bred from Bulldogs and Terriers. Blue is not a Bulldog color. The American Staffordshire was bred from Bulldogs and (occasionally) Mastiffs. Blue is a Mastiff color. So it is entirely possible that the blue gene would not show up in APBTs, but would show itself in AmStaffs.


I'm not sure if I agree with you on this, I would love to know where you got this info from, not arguing, just need more info, thanks for helping to make this a seriously interesting thread.



american_pit13 said:


> No actually when the AKC would not register the Pitbull due to reputation of the dogs as fighting dogs, however the UKC had started for the American pitbull and the AKC didn't want to loose out on all the money to be made with a dog that is registered and owned by so many so they started registering them as Staffordshire Terriers, but due to name conflicts they ended up being American Staffordshire Terriers.
> 
> Well then thru the AKC the dogs where bred for show rather than the working purpose of the APBT. The APBT maintained its working figure and the Amstaff developed into a Show style dog.
> 
> As far as Blue goes the APBT can come in blue.. Since they can come in black.. Blue was actually unacceptable in the AKC AmStaffs. The standard for the AmStaff calls for a defiantly black nose. So you can't have blues. However now a days you do see blues winning and no regard to the standard due to the popularity of the color.


Holly, this post is probably one of the best posts in a thread that is full of fantastic, well written posts. You seriously are so important to us here. If you stopped signing in to GP, I would pour gasoline over myself and light a match in protest!!!!!!



performanceknls said:


> :goodpost: thank you you saved me a lot of typing....
> 
> For her to say blue is not an APBT color but ASt color just adds to the long list of BS Diane talks about on her site.....
> I wish Tara was here she had all the great articles about blue gamebred dogs! They did happen and there were a few that were matched.
> ...


If it weren't for this " inside info" I wouldnt know any better, if i could only pick your brain for a few days.



bahamutt99 said:


> There's an article in the ADBA Gazette this month which references a blue dog from way back in the day. I'd be inclined to believe they existed. Just like I think if you inbreed enough, you can bring out blue just like any other recessive trait. I do not assert that there are a lot of pure gamebred blue dogs nowadays -- I think a lot do go back to AmStaff -- but I don't necessarily believe that all of them have to be AmStaff-bred. I tend to take DJ statements with a grain of salt anyway.


...gonna have to check that article out, thanks for sharing.

this is turning out to be one of the best threads all week in my opinion. Newbies could relly learn so much from this, i know i have.


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