# What do you think of this pedigree?



## DaveD (Sep 15, 2010)

Hey guys I was thinking of getting a puppy from this litter. I was just looking for some opinions on this pedigree.
Swogger's Redcoat Kennels For some reason the I can't get the direct link to the pedigree but the link for the pedigree is for Koty x Lola under breedings.
Thanks


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Lol im am going to keep my mouth zipped. LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=367082

There you go


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I see a lot of camelot and lar-san in there I don't know a lot about those lines other than they are ukc show lines. I think some of the dogs in the pedigree look decent. I don't know about the kennel never heard of them. Looks like a lot of amstaff/show blood in the pedigree. What are you looking for in your pup? Just a house pet or do you want to show?

Lindsay know's a lot about the Lar-san line maybe she can give you some more input on the dog's in the pedigree


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## DaveD (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks Sadie:cheers:
I was looking to possible getting into show or weight pull


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

If I'm not mistaken she doesn't do alot of either, show or weight pull but I could be wrong?


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

Wait, hold that thought, apparently the dogs she lets go do weight pull and very well!


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Lol im am going to keep my mouth zipped. LOL


Good thinking Missy. It has always been a good idea to keep one's mouth shut when one is ignorant to the facts.

K Swogger
Redcoat Kennels


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

what are you looking for?
apparently you prefer bulkier dogs.
I like the 100% real APBT lookin dog.even to the point that folks who have pits say "oh,no way,thats not A pit"!


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

Sadie said:


> I see a lot of camelot and lar-san in there I don't know a lot about those lines other than they are ukc show lines. I think some of the dogs in the pedigree look decent. I don't know about the kennel never heard of them. Looks like a lot of amstaff/show blood in the pedigree. What are you looking for in your pup? Just a house pet or do you want to show?
> 
> Lindsay know's a lot about the Lar-san line maybe she can give you some more input on the dog's in the pedigree


Where do you see a lot of camelot? You have got to be kidding me.  As for wanting to know more about the Lar-San line, there is no reason for this person to ask "Lindsey", when I know my dogs' lineage front and backward. If he is interested in the litter, he should be asking ME, not go on a board where the majority of members own non-papered rescues and/or do not know how to read or understand pedigrees.

FYI, Camelot is absolutely not a UKC show line. (Now that's funny. lololololol)


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

uh.. oh... lol.. I seen alot of camelot on the bottom myself and I just went back 7.. thats why your dogs have great OFRN conformation and a lil extra bulk. Wilrox PR Chief outcrossed with Camelot..

don't know how to read peds?? 
Second Third Fourth
Second Third Fourth 
(Sire) UWP PR GRIM REAPER- BRENNAN SHARP'S MAR-CELL PR CLASSIC IMAGE BOREE'S JOE LEWIS MORGAN'S PISTOL PETE II 
LINA'S CRUELLA'S REVENGE 
CLASSIC IMAGES KARA PIERCE'S STEEL TANKER 
'PR' CLASSIC IMAGES-QUIET CHARM 
SHARP'S GRITTA SEGURA'S LARADO SEGURA'S CHIEF II 
SEGURA'S NALA 
SEGURA'S NALA NGRCH GRCH PR JERICHO'S DREAMWEAVER 
NORTHEN RED RIOT 
(Dam) HULLANDER'S EASY HULLANDER'S RENO PR CLASSIC IMAGE BOREE'S JOE LEWIS MORGAN'S PISTOL PETE II 
LINA'S CRUELLA'S REVENGE 
HULLANDER'S NINJA 2 PR CLASSIC IMAGE BOREE'S JOE LEWIS 
FISCHER'S BABY 
MCKENNA'S JH MOONFIRE BARKER'S KOJACK 
*CAMELOT'S* RAJUN CAJUN 
*CAMELOTS* PSYCO MANIAC 
*PETERSON'S* DANGEROUS BEAUTY PR' DANGERS DOOM 
*PETERSON'S* KLEINS MIA

This information is stored in and generated by: apbt.online-pedigrees.com

Im sure anyone can find irritability in the little things, I know I do.. I can tell you all my dogs are pedigreed  and I don't read peds.. I disect peds and analyze every dog for itself. I've been to many forums and most people who think they know how to read a ped do not...

Cheif was badaz.. I love me some ofrn... If ya got camelot in the ped you got camelot in the ped. Its like having a staff or a whopper in your ped, thats all it means.. Im thinkin your dogs would do great in weight pull from structure and ped.. and thats the answer to the question asked..

thats the cold heart truth


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

MISSAPBT said:


> Lol im am going to keep my mouth zipped. LOL


:rofl: (chuckles) up:


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> uh.. oh... lol.. I seen alot of camelot on the bottom myself and I just went back 7..
> 
> don't know how to read peds??
> Second Third Fourth
> ...


Soooooooooooo OK.. lol.. You are naming 3 cam dogs out of the entire pedigree of these puppies, which btw are 7 or 8 generations back on the grandsire's side?? Oh Lord have mercy. BTW, Saddie said she "sees ALOT of Camelot and Lar-San". That is simply not true is all. Actually, Lola's sire is what's considered "Dangerzone" which does have a couple camelot dogs UP in there, but certainly at this point in time, makes no difference whatsoever. I am not claiming Cam wasn't in the blood. I was correcting her, if you will... She stated it as IF the majority of the blood is Camelot and LarSan. The truth is, the majority of the blood is Lar-San, with a pinch of Dangerzone from the grandsire's side. 
If you can read peds, great, then I wasn't referring to you. And thank you, my dogs do great in weightpull and are well driven dogs. And have been for over a decade. And that's the cold hard truth.. :thumbsup:


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

@ the op. I happen to like the dangerzone dogs and think of them more as a catch type dog. If I was looking strictly for a weight all dog I def. look to these dogs. I don't think they would show to well cause they are a lil thick. But none the less they are nice just not what I would want in my program.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I personally like the looks of these dogs , I like thicker builds though, just my thing


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## Roxy_Nie (Oct 10, 2008)

The dogs look good but I didn't see any accomplishments. I mean if I was going to buy a dog to get into wp with then I would want to buy it from a breeder who's dogs pull. And pull well. I mean that's just me.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

kimber said:


> Soooooooooooo OK.. lol.. You are naming 3 cam dogs out of the entire pedigree of these puppies, which btw are 7 or 8 generations back on the grandsire's side?? Oh Lord have mercy. BTW, Saddie said she "sees ALOT of Camelot and Lar-San". That is simply not true is all. Actually, Lola's sire is what's considered "Dangerzone" which does have a couple camelot dogs UP in there, but certainly at this point in time, makes no difference whatsoever. I am not claiming Cam wasn't in the blood. I was correcting her, if you will... She stated it as IF the majority of the blood is Camelot and LarSan. The truth is, the majority of the blood is Lar-San, with a pinch of Dangerzone from the grandsire's side.
> If you can read peds, great, then I wasn't referring to you. And thank you, my dogs do great in weightpull and are well driven dogs. And have been for over a decade. And that's the cold hard truth.. :thumbsup:


Actually I named four and just to say... opinoins vary .. Cold River the truth hurts.. ONLINE PEDIGREES PEDIGREE STATISTICS :: MCKENNA'S JH MOONFIRE :: [150397]
bottom half ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [319861] :: HULLANDER'S EASY is more than 50% (moonfire is like over 80%) camelot, because peterson dogs like ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [27008] :: PETERSON'S KLEINS MIA is all camelot, with a smidge of clouse..

did you get offended cause someone said you had camelot in your blood?
as long as your not advertising game bred apbts then theres no question to your stock IMO; and I know Cheif was the shizzy in his own right, visited wilrox back in 01/02 somthing like that.. but morgans has some authentic OFRN fire and all that is intertwined to produce what seems to me like a nice working dog..

anyway... that bottom half does have alot of camelot..

top half .. that montanna dog.. is a lot of larsaan.. sarona TOO.. but I know alot of peep consider larsaan to be red nosed amstaff ... but I used a larsaan/sarona X norrod dog.. then out crossed that to my heavy linbred 3XJocko/Redboy with norrod out in founding sire, Hooch.. Then I lined that sht back out.. got some good dogs from it.. Duma was a product from that out, who was used in my bear/bull biter experiment.. But I know that those AKC/UKC dogs are used as outs in ADBA stock here and there.

anyway.. it is a 3/4wilrox(larsaan)/1/4camelot dog IMO to sum it up for folks.. if you feel thats a knock, dunno ??? I like cheif .. .that sarona, and morgan blood is undeniable and give ya props for that but these none game dogs aren't my cup of tea..

but that dog has a great name .. cold hard truth.. lol :woof:


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> Actually I named four and just to say... opinoins vary .. Cold River the truth hurts.. ONLINE PEDIGREES PEDIGREE STATISTICS :: MCKENNA'S JH MOONFIRE :: [150397]
> bottom half ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [319861] :: HULLANDER'S EASY
> 
> is more than 50% camelot, because peterson ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [27008] :: PETERSON'S KLEINS MIA is all camelot..
> ...


Well anyway, ONE measly outcross I did where the grandsire (and only the grandsire) is Dangerzone, (inwhich those couple a camelot dogs mentioned are stuffed waaaay back in there), and every other dog in the pedigree reeks Lar-San/Wilrox?? well, to me it's obsurd to call it "A LOT" of camelot or even mention camelot period, and for someone who seemingly "knows" about pedigrees and such, I find it quite ODD. But to answer your question, nah, it don't bother me that Cam blood is in that little, teensy-weensy piece of the pie and it really isn't even 1/4. Cam did not make up the majority of DZ dogs for one thing. Or maybe you can look that up for me.

Oh, just a little note. Sandy's rednoses were not amstaff by any means. They didn't even look like amstaffs. Im sure you probably heard alot of the flak that Bill was getting from the game world. Now there is a dog up in there that is also reg AKC but that's about it. Many, many MANY generations ago. Again, that means nothing. Remember, they had to be APBTs before they became AmStaffs. Back in the day is not quite today in UKC and AKC terms, if you get my drift. But, thanks for the conversation. You seem like a cool dude. I probably won't come around for another 3 or 4 months, so thanks for the convo.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

its odd to you as it is odd to me.. cause see.. to us in the game dog world we get 7 gen peds and anything without any proven dogs in the immediate 3 arent from proven stock and so forth and so on all the way back.. Unless its private peds I've only seen Norrod and Colby have a 7gen of no winners and produce a winner.. 

its odd to me that you consider 7 way back,, doesnt take that long LOL and if you look at TG stock and GH stock you can see those dogs of old relived 7 gen later.. so to us game dog folk every puzzle piece counts. other wise whats the point of stacking a ped??? purifying that or those traits.. so thats the difference becaus game dog folks breed strictly for mentality confromation 2nd. If you breed for looks 4 gens is all one needs.. I heard that flak and to each his own, I like cheif.. wish he had some proven stock.. 

alrighty then... dont be a stranger .. if your not gettin back on for a while.. 

have a MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! 

and DaveD good luck man, have fun with your new prospect..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

kimber said:


> Where do you see a lot of camelot? You have got to be kidding me.  As for wanting to know more about the Lar-San line, there is no reason for this person to ask "Lindsey", when I know my dogs' lineage front and backward. If he is interested in the litter, he should be asking ME, not go on a board where the majority of members own non-papered rescues and/or do not know how to read or understand pedigrees.
> 
> FYI, Camelot is absolutely not a UKC show line. (Now that's funny. lololololol)


You know what I should have said? You have some scatter bred crap! That's the truth there is no consistency in that garbage your producing. You want to see consistency ?

Look at my dogs pedigree's see the consistency in bloodlines? That is how a real dog is supposed to be bred!

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [328954] :: A'S BOGART

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175576] :: AKA X FINALE

And furthermore Camelot is JUNK! it's been pimped out by bully breeders what it once was and what it is now you can't even compare. There are some decent dogs that were used in the foundation of that line and there is some working potential here and there in the line but the majority of it is garbage! And you take that crap to any game dog board and you will get it handed back to you on a junk platter! So don't come telling me I don't know how to read a pedigree because I know what's behind your dogs and I know how to look for consistency within a pedigree and how to break it down percentage wise. Your dogs don't have any consistency behind them based on what I looked at.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Sadie said:


> You know what I should have said? You have some scatter bred crap! That's the truth there is no consistency in that garbage your producing. You want to see consistency ?
> 
> Look at my dogs pedigree's see the consistency in bloodlines? That is how a real dog is supposed to be bred!
> 
> ...


and thats what caused Missapbt to keep the zip lip.personally,I noticed it,yet let it pass.
and as FH,and now you've stated,
tight is right, right wins the fight.
old addage that many bred by/to.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Well William since he wanted to get smart and tell us we don't know how their dogs are bred .. I figured I would just be real honest ..... I glanced over it and saw a little bit of camelot and lar-san but from what I saw it was so scatter bred that you really can't say what is what because there is no consistency just a bunch of stuff thrown together. That's what we call scatter bred around here buddy!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Here I was trying to be all nice and gentleman like; buawahahahahahahahahahahaha
Im dyin over here...


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

Sadie said:


> Well William since he wanted to get smart and tell us we don't know how their dogs are bred .. I figured I would just be real honest ..... I glanced over it and saw a little bit of camelot and lar-san but from what I saw it was so scatter bred that you really can't say what is what because there is no consistency just a bunch of stuff thrown together. That's what we call scatter bred around here buddy!


I know,I really had to keep hush,their were A few comments up the line that irked me.so I just got out the popcorn and waited for the show.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

lol..u guys show great tact...and awesome information...good job


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

william williamson said:


> I know,I really had to keep hush,their were A *few comments up the line that irked me*.so I just got out the popcorn and waited for the show.


:rofl: I know, you knew I was going give a whirl... Just didn't want to be my usual azzhat self, so I thought I'd be more gentleman like.. :hammer:

Im still :roll:


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

kimber said:


> Where do you see a lot of camelot? You have got to be kidding me.  As for wanting to know more about the Lar-San line, there is no reason for this person to ask "Lindsey", when I know my dogs' lineage front and backward. If he is interested in the litter, he should be asking ME, not go on a board where the majority of members own non-papered rescues and/or do not know how to read or understand pedigrees.
> 
> FYI, Camelot is absolutely not a UKC show line. (Now that's funny. lololololol)


Im really impressed with daves desire to hear from someone other than the breeder about the ped. you should be happy that one of your pups maybe going to a home that cares enough about your dogs to want to learn as much as he can to ensure a good match. other wise it could become just another unpapered rescue. lolol


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

What's wrong with unpapered rescues? :/ my dog is just as good as any papered dog.
The paper doesn't make the dog, the dog makes the paper. besides, you can burn paper.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Nothing but there is something wrong with Peddler's/BYB's who pass off scatter bred junk like it's caviar.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Lol Dave! Um..pardon the interruption here, but isn't Kimber a female *checks signature*.. K Swogger... correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've seen Kimber on other sites and the K stands for Kim or Kimberly... but I could be wrong. So I'll hush now.

P.S. Great posts Stan, and Tara!


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Nothing but there is something wrong with Peddler's/BYB's who pass off scatter bred junk like it's caviar.


:clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

If I may add...I love Camelot dogs...
BUT thats just me...to each their own


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Lol John. We're not disputing the quality of Camelot dogs... but I like your addition to the thread lol.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lone star .. I respect you bro. And there are some camelot dogs that are still functional. But I don't have respect for turdster's who back yard breed and then get offended when it's pointed out.


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

I know girls...I just had to state that I love me some Camelot... 
love yall 2...lol


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## Black Label Romo (Oct 15, 2009)

Ohhhh and Sadie...your responses were definitley called for...
insulting the boards intelligence...not cool...


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

I concur! I love the way Dave said it best though... gotta give Dave props on that one!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah Dave is the man. I am waiting for them to respond come on buddy I see you replying.... I know I ruffled some feathers let's hear it!


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Lol @ Tara.. I saw that too b/c I went to check the profile.. is a woman in the pix on the one album, so it seems my hunch was right lol. We'll let Kimber speak for their self though.


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

Sadie said:


> You know what I should have said? You have some scatter bred crap! That's the truth there is no consistency in that garbage your producing. You want to see consistency ?
> 
> Look at my dogs pedigree's see the consistency in bloodlines? That is how a real dog is supposed to be bred!
> 
> ...


SO I guess I can pat myself on my back now that I gave a few lonely members some interesting fun time. I mean EVERYONE knows EVERYTHING here! Who am I pra'tell. I just love to hear the werid concoctions that my dogs seem to be from the outside people looking in.. The Cam blood in this one single pedigree means nothing. It's so watered down it's as if it doesn't exsist. But you can cll it what it you want, instead of what it is. Well tootles DUDES... I"m outta here until the next few months. I guess you better be on your toes kids. Redcoat Kennels


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Tara, it seems as though you not only ruffled the feathers, but you plucked em too! LMAO


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

kimber said:


> SO I guess I can pat myself on my back now that I gave a few lonely members some interesting fun time. I mean EVERYONE knows EVERYTHING here! Who am I pra'tell. I just love to hear the werid concoctions that my dogs seem to be from the outside people looking in.. The Cam blood in this one single pedigree means nothing. It's so watered down it's as if it doesn't exsist. But you can cll it what it you want, instead of what it is. Well tootles DUDES... I"m outta here until the next few months. I guess you better be on your toes kids. Redcoat Kennels


See you later it's been nice conversing with you  When you come back and decide to spit in peoples faces who happen to know just a little bit about this breed maybe you should leave your know it all crappy attitude at the front door next time and debate like an adult instead of trying to insult the intelligence of some knowledgable dog people. See you later best of luck with your dogs hope you learned a thing or two about how they are bred and how to read a pedigree.

Tara


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

Sadie said:


> You know what I should have said? You have some scatter bred crap! That's the truth there is no consistency in that garbage your producing. You want to see consistency ?
> Who?
> 
> Look at my dogs pedigree's see the consistency in bloodlines? That is how a real dog is supposed to be bred! NO.
> ...


 Your just a silly little girl wanting for attention and you got it here. Good for you... I'm glad for you..but you still have no idea what the f you are talking about. As for Camelot.. most of it has been junk for the last 6,7,8, years so far. I don't even like the old school Camelot. Don't get sooooo irked because I said my mind. Face it, you don't know everything. None of us do, but I would bet you I know more about my lines than you do yours. I probably know more of my lines AND your lines, more than you. OK, I'm done. you can reply back as long and as hard as ever. I'm not going to be reading it, but your buddies will and that is really who you want them to impress. I've been in this game for too long to sit and listen to bullcrap about something I know personally and know passionately. Have a good nite girlie. It's time for bed over here. chow.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

:rofl: :goodpost: OMG Tara!! You said that so well! Perfect in every way! Have I told you how happy I am that you're back!? I missed the heck outta ya!


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)




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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Yep... I knew I recognized this person from another forum. Pulled her website up... yep, yep, yep.
Swogger's Redcoat Kennels

K. Swogger=Kim Swogger


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

kimber said:


> Your just a silly little girl wanting for attention and you got it here. Good for you... I'm glad for you..but you still have no idea what the f you are talking about. As for Camelot.. most of it has been junk for the last 6,7,8, years so far. I don't even like the old school Camelot. Don't get sooooo irked because I said my mind. Face it, you don't know everything. None of us do, but I would bet you I know more about my lines than you do yours. I probably know more of my lines AND your lines, more than you. OK, I'm done. you can reply back as long and as hard as ever. I'm not going to be reading it, but your buddies will and that is really who you want them to impress. I've been in this game for too long to sit and listen to bullcrap about something I know personally and know passionately. Have a good nite girlie. It's time for bed over here. chow.


No I don't know everything never claimed to ..BUT I know a how to point out a turd when I see one ... I also know how to read a pedigree I know how to look at dogs and what's behind them I know how to spot consistency within a pedigree which I saw none in the one pedigree I looked at. I know how to look at a website and point out a BYB from a Quality Breeder who produces Quality dogs. I know well bred dogs from garbage bred dogs... The sad part is you don't know your lines or what you breed and your pissed because someone else here who doesn't know your dogs told you what type of blood your running on YOUR yard at least I know how my dogs are bred and how to read their pedigree's LOL. You breed for money! Your dogs are not accomplished with working titles there is no health testing done on any of your dogs prior to them being bred. You breed quantity over quality that is what makes you a BYB... 1500.00? For a scattered bred cur? Are you kidding me? You are deceiving people who don't know any better and make money off the ignorance of others. That is where people like myself and the rest of this board come in to EXPOSE BYB's like you for what you really are. Good riddance to bad rubbish and don't let the door hit you on arse on the way out!


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

She sure had a lot of dogs die young.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

And FYI you couldn't PAY me 1500.00 to take one of those mutts. So keep on peddling but when your kennel name comes up we will be sure to let them know what the deal is ...


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Not to mention, she's still on the color fad thing... notice ALL her dogs are of red/chocolate/red fawn color!? And yeah, no health testing, no titles... hmmm. Not somewhere I'd risk getting a dog from. I'd rather go to the shelter first and rescue a dog!



> _NOTICE
> Do YOU have one of our dogs and want him/her show-cased here?
> Just e-mail or snailmail me a recent picture, ALONG, with your name and the dog's full name!
> Alot of people email me pictures without signing their email. Most of the time,
> I have no idea who you are or what breeding your dog is from._


Love this right here! 


> _note: In the case coat color is an issue with you,
> We do not guarantee all puppies will be chocolate!_


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yep that's what I am saying save that 1500.00 for an untitled non-health tested dog based off how some of those dogs look you might be paying that x 5 in medical bills later on. If you want a nicely bred show dog from good Lar-San blood go to Matrix Kennels or Caragen Kennels. You will get some nicely bred show dogs that are kicking tail in the show rings working titled, health tested dogs, that produce show quality pups!


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

^
While she has some beautiful dogs,people are just paying top dollar for a dog you could get for free off Craigs list.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

ThaLadyPit said:


> :rofl: :goodpost: OMG Tara!! You said that so well! Perfect in every way! Have I told you how happy I am that you're back!? I missed the heck outta ya!


Beverly girl I missed you too :hug: I am glad to be back and helping out where I can. It's good to be back with my Go Pit bull family!


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Everyone has an opinion and my opinion is the way the breeder reacted just lost themselves a sale of a mutt.

They dogs look ok from the pics but i dont know about those kinds of dogs nor do i wnt too.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

junkyard said:


> Everyone has an opinion and my opinion is *the way the breeder reacted just lost themselves a sale of a mutt.*
> 
> They dogs look ok from the pics but i dont know about those kinds of dogs nor do i wnt too.


:clap: You hit the nail on the head JunkYard!! Good point.

Stan, Tara, Dave (redog), and Uncle Will and Livy (even though you didn't say much), it was a wonderful, informative thread. Thanks for the lively debate and glad I could be of some assistance!



sadie said:


> Beverly girl I missed you too I am glad to be back and helping out where I can. It's good to be back with my Go Pit bull family!


It sure feels good to be home, don't it!? Lol.


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

hey hey hey... yall back up a minute.. there is nothing wrong with a scatterbred dog dang it....in fact my YARD is based on a scatterbred pair of sisters, and I've been mixing and fine tuning for years...lol


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

LadyRampage said:


> hey hey hey... yall back up a minute.. there is nothing wrong with a scatterbred dog dang it....in fact my YARD is based on a scatterbred pair of sisters, and I've been mixing and fine tuning for years...lol


Stacia, you're not a back yard breeder, either. And as you said, you're fine tuning. You're going somewhere with yours.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

LadyRampage said:


> hey hey hey... yall back up a minute.. there is nothing wrong with a scatterbred dog dang it....in fact my YARD is based on a scatterbred pair of sisters, and I've been mixing and fine tuning for years...lol


I wanted to say something earlier in regards to this.
theirs been dogs that have been Hellions,that their was either no pedigree,or scatterbred.
yet,today,how many can do today, like the old dogmen,and whether or not it's bred tight, or right or lined out,they could see that little something,that look,or move,or attitude and just know.
how many females never saw the inside of the box,yet they were called upon for breeding often due to their blood,or littermate,yet some weren't and they had good git.
I'm sure when the reference was made to this it was just random.the person who stated it surely knows,yet, theirs too, folks who'll read this, and when we don't clarify,they spread bad info.
so yup,uh huh,sho' nuff, they's been some scatterbreds that put true warriors on 4 feet.
Amen,hallelujah,pass the ammo,


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

william williamson said:


> I wanted to say something earlier in regards to this.
> theirs been dogs that have been Hellions,that their was either no pedigree,or scatterbred.
> yet,today,how many can do today, like the old dogmen,and whether or not it's bred tight, or right or lined out,they could see that little something,that look,or move,or attitude and just know.
> how many females never saw the inside of the box,yet they were called upon for breeding often due to their blood,or littermate,yet some weren't and they had good git.
> ...


I was just poking fun..lmao I heard scatterbred and just had to chime in... I've had alot of people try to talk down to me simply because I have "scatterbred" dogs, like its a dirty word..lmao My scatterbred dogs are exactly what I want, and to be truthful I've seen quiet a few inbred dogs I wouldn't feed..lol Goes both ways, course as stated, I do have a clear goal/plan what I'm accomplishing with my dogs.

As for K.swogger (chickee) I honestly think she cares for her dogs, has had them a long time. I know she has produced some extremely fine weight pull dogs, I do believe a reallllyyy nice one resides at Cold River Kennels.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

As for K.swogger (chickee) I honestly think she cares for her dogs, has had them a long time. I know she has produced some extremely fine weight pull dogs, I do believe a reallllyyy nice one resides at Cold River Kennels.[/QUOTE]

She has been a member here for a lil while and has posted about her dogs before. People always said nice things to her about them I was a lil caught off gaurd as to how she was treated in this thread JMO.


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

ThaLadyPit said:


> Yep... I knew I recognized this person from another forum. Pulled her website up... yep, yep, yep.
> Swogger's Redcoat Kennels
> 
> K. Swogger=Kim Swogger


Oh wow, CONGRATULATIONS! You put 2 and 2 together!! Milk and cookies for his girl, PRONTO!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

kimber said:


> Oh wow, CONGRATULATIONS! You put 2 and 2 together!! Milk and cookies for his girl, PRONTO!


I thought you left? Can't stay away huh? Must be the knowledge on this board keeping you here.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

kimber said:


> Oh wow, CONGRATULATIONS! You put 2 and 2 together!! Milk and cookies for his girl, PRONTO!


Ya know Kim, you may not like me b/c of issues from other forums we've been on together, but no need to talk down to everyone here like we're all dunces and you're the all high and mighty! But, I'm sure you don't even remember what I'm talking about, it's been so long.

You came on here defensive from the beginning when the OP asked our opinions of your dogs and the bloodlines, referring to the forum members and dogs as nothing but unpapered rescues and whatnot. Even our boss man that is in charge of this site had to come in and say something, which is unusual, so obviously, you got off on the wrong foot here. If you can't take the heat, stay outta the kitchen.

Like was said, you should be proud of the fact that the person was interested enough in your dogs to care about what others think about your lines and what type of breeder/handler you are! Be humbled, and thankful that he cares enough and his actions are proving him worthy for taking the time to research and be sure before making a hasty decision!


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

Rudy4747 said:


> As for K.swogger (chickee) I honestly think she cares for her dogs, has had them a long time. I know she has produced some extremely fine weight pull dogs, I do believe a reallllyyy nice one resides at Cold River Kennels.


She has been a member here for a lil while and has posted about her dogs before. People always said nice things to her about them I was a lil caught off gaurd as to how she was treated in this thread JMO.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Oh, and for the record. IMO, there's nothing wrong with a scatterbred dog, as long as there's a particular direction you're headed with that scattered breeding. I know everyone has to start somewhere. 

However, when you clearly advertise on your site that you're breeding for color preference, and there's no titles or health testing to be shown for it.. what purpose are you really serving in breeding these dogs? 

Yeah, so you've got some good WP dogs out there that you produced, but if you have to put a notice on your site saying you can't guarantee the chocolate color and that if people email or snailmail you pix of a pup you produced to please list their names and the dog's FULL name, b/c you don't/won't/can't recognize it w/out the FULL name, that sounds to me like you've got too much going on! 

But, that's all just my own personal opinion, and nobody had to feed me that line or coerce me into saying that. I think and type and act freely and on my own accord.


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

ThaLadyPit said:


> Ya know Kim, you may not like me b/c of issues from other forums we've been on together, but no need to talk down to everyone here like we're all dunces and you're the all high and mighty! But, I'm sure you don't even remember what I'm talking about, it's been so long.
> 
> You came on here defensive from the beginning when the OP asked our opinions of your dogs and the bloodlines, referring to the forum members and dogs as nothing but unpapered rescues and whatnot. Even our boss man that is in charge of this site had to come in and say something, which is unusual, so obviously, you got off on the wrong foot here. If you can't take the heat, stay outta the kitchen.
> 
> Like was said, you should be proud of the fact that the person was interested enough in your dogs to care about what others think about your lines and what type of breeder/handler you are! Be humbled, and thankful that he cares enough and his actions are proving him worthy for taking the time to research and be sure before making a hasty decision!


I wouldn't steer my worse enemy to this board. And for the record dear girl, when someone is directly referring to my dogs as different than what they are, I will correct them.

Btw, what heat can't I take?? This forum is peanuts and candy and alot of the posters have the same mentality....not all of course, but quite a few. Its not me who can't take the heat, it's the one's who came back twofold who have lost their cool with me. (Scatterbred my a$) Oh well.. that's how the cookie crumbles, eh? I will have a talk to DaveD. I think he needs to know how fanatics work. As for being grateful that the person has interest in one of my dogs, of course I am. And he is just as grateful that he'll be getting a dog with a great pedigree, temperament and drive. And then we all live happily on forever.


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## kimber (Dec 27, 2009)

ThaLadyPit said:


> Oh, and for the record. IMO, there's nothing wrong with a scatterbred dog, as long as there's a particular direction you're headed with that scattered breeding. I know everyone has to start somewhere.
> 
> However, when you clearly advertise on your site that you're breeding for color preference, and there's no titles or health testing to be shown for it.. what purpose are you really serving in breeding these dogs?
> 
> ...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Then why are you still here? You said you were gone yesterday you can't correct anyone. You have been corrected several times in this thread. If this forum is filled with a bunch of rescue un-papered, pedigree illiterate, empty minded people . Why are you still here arguing with us? You said you were gone last night and here you are again. Obviously some truth must have been told about your kennel and your dogs or else you wouldn't be in such a frenzy trying to argue with people who you claim know nothing. Seriously you have made yourself look like a fool. There is no saving face for you here at this point. Know one cares about your dogs, your dogs pedigrees, the OP asked a question because he obviously couldn't get the information from you as the breeder. He got his answers what he decides to do at this point is up to him. You don't need to convince me of your mutts pedigree's you need to be convincing DaveD since he is the one who is interested in your dogs. Because we sure as heck are not interested in anything on your yard. And FYI we never slandered your kennel you came on this forum ATTACKING us for giving the OP a break down of how one of the dogs were bred. Your the one who from the very beginning of this thread jumped on members who have been around these dogs for a minute. So do yourself a favor if you have such a lack of respect for the people on this forum leave no one is forcing you to be here.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

kimber said:


> I wouldn't steer my worse enemy to this board. And for the record dear girl, when someone is directly referring to my dogs as different than what they are, I will correct them.
> 
> Btw, what heat can't I take?? This forum is peanuts and candy and alot of the posters have the same mentality....not all of course, but quite a few. Its not me who can't take the heat, it's the one's who came back twofold who have lost their cool with me. (Scatterbred my a$) Oh well.. that's how the cookie crumbles, eh? I will have a talk to DaveD. I think he needs to know how fanatics work. As for being grateful that the person has interest in one of my dogs, of course I am. And he is just as grateful that he'll be getting a dog with a great pedigree, temperament and drive. And then we all live happily on forever.


thats all fine and dandy. you still could have handled this better as it IS permantly posted for the world to see. You seem to have turned this into a pissing match.
Too bad, I enjoy seeing your dogs


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

kimber said:


> *I wouldn't steer my worse enemy to this board. * And for the record dear girl, when someone is directly referring to my dogs as different than what they are, I will correct them.
> 
> Btw, what heat can't I take?? This forum is peanuts and candy and alot of the posters have the same mentality....not all of course, but quite a few. Its not me who can't take the heat, it's the one's who came back twofold who have lost their cool with me. (Scatterbred my a$) Oh well.. that's how the cookie crumbles, eh? I will have a talk to DaveD. I think he needs to know how fanatics work. As for being grateful that the person has interest in one of my dogs, of course I am. And he is just as grateful that he'll be getting a dog with a great pedigree, temperament and drive. And then we all live happily on forever.


Lol.. if that's the case, then why do you keep coming back? I'm not trying to run anyone off, but seriously, if you dislike it here so much, why do you keep coming back?

Okay, enough arguing. I wanna hear your take on how your lines are NOT scatterbred. I mean, I'm still learning to read pedigrees, so please enlighten us less than knowledgeable folks on what constitutes that pedigree posted by the OP as not being scatterbred. I would love to learn anything and everything I can about reading pedigrees.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The question is they claim this dog is primarily a LAR-SAN bred dog ... Have you seen the dogs in this pedigree? Lar-san dogs are not bred to look like the ones produced at this kennel. If you click on each dog Bev and go back you will see a lot of unknown's and no consistency in bloodline. There is Danger zone, Camelot, Lar-san, Wilrox which BTW are UKC/Bully show lines Lar-San has quite a bit of Amstaff behind it but for the most part if your getting it from a good kennel it is a nice UKC show line some of those dogs are able to compete in the ADBA and do well. When reading a pedigree you can't just look at the dogs in the first 4 generations you have to look at those dogs and what's behind those dogs. If you go through each and every dog and look at the dogs in which they stem from you will see there is no consistency in this pedigree. There are no working titles on either the dam or sire of this breeding. Most of anything that was worked is back in the 3-4 generations.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [367082] :: KOTY & LOLA LITTER 2011


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Lol, thanks Tara.. I'm slightly familiar with Lar-San, as Debo was heavy Nevada/Lar-San, and some of the dogs in Onyx's ped are Lar-San/Nevada also. I've heard of, but am not familiar with, Dangerzone or Wilcox, but thank you so much for helping me out. 

Yes, I seen there's not much in the way of achievements/titles more recently in the pedigree. I've been learning, here and there with some awesome help. When I have a question, I know I can PM somebody and they'll answer me as soon as they log in, lol. I feel silly having to ask questions, but I'm not going to make assumptions on something and be wrong, so I'd rather ask the question and be right. Lol.. make sense?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes I know well you know we are all here to put our great minds together to help  And if I don't have the answers I know who to call to find them LOL


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Lol.. well, long as you're not calling em up at 2am b/c I PM you with a question.. would hate to be the root cause of a "booty call" misconception lol. J/K... you know what I mean. Thanks for being there.. I was actually looking for Kim to answer my question since she says the dogs aren't scatterbred, yet everyone on here that can read a ped says they are! Ya know... Not everyone is gonna tell the same lie! Hmm....the things that make you wonder.


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Kimber no offense, but if you didnt have your head stuck so far up your own a** and reacted like an adult instead of getting your nose stuck up, maybee as well as moving one of your dogs on to an obviously caring client, you may have paved the way to getting a few more clients from such a threads.

I am not knocking your dogs at all, i think they look good and well cared for , but i personally wouldnt want one i have a different taste to yours, i prefer gamebred dogs myself.


Rudy, the reaction that started this all was nothing to do with members , the breeder got her knickers in a knot and acted like a snob when she thought a members analogy of her dogs peds was completely incorrect , which it wasnt a very typical reaction of many show dog breeders first to tell you how great there dogs are last to have an open mind.

In my opinion the only person worse than this type of dog breeders are cat breeders.
If you ask me she set herself up.
Now this thread will remain on the internet forever for people to see what kind of attitude she has. Quite a deserving punisment for acting the clown.


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## 00 S/C Lightning (Apr 7, 2010)

And I put someone on blast for bad breeding/name calling and get hit with a violation......dang every post she drops is member attacking. Wools my fault I'm not trying to instigate I just read the rules

Back to the bloodlines info section. I give the guy props for him doing research on a dog he is interest in bringing into his family. He didn't know what he was being told and asked. Just too bad it spun out of control

I heart Firehazzard


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

00 S/C Lightning said:


> And I put someone on blast for bad breeding/name calling and get hit with a violation......dang every post she drops is member attacking. Wools my fault I'm not trying to instigate I just read the rules
> 
> Back to the bloodlines info section. I give the guy props for him doing research on a dog he is interest in bringing into his family. He didn't know what he was being told and asked. Just too bad it spun out of control
> 
> I heart Firehazzard


Kind of the point I was trying to make. I have seen a lot of dogs from these line do well in weight pull. But just want to add any Game type line would fit standard better for show and probably do as well at weight pull. So to the Op good luck hope you find what your looking for.


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## 00 S/C Lightning (Apr 7, 2010)

i am proably just like the op when i got my staffy bull, i didnt know anything and didnt know who to turn to. granted i wouldnt go back on what i got from onyx, but i wish i was given more info and knew where to look to.

all the different "bloodlines" run me in circles, there is just so many different names for this that and the other. good for dave, ask a question and get 50 answers


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> Unless its private peds I've only seen Norrod and Colby have a 7gen of no winners and produce a winner..


That's funny, I never seen a Norrod pedigree not have a winner in 3 generations. There has never been a Norrod pedigree not have a winner in it.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

QUOTE=Tx Red Dog;382949]That's funny, I never seen a Norrod pedigree not have a winner in 3 generations. There has never been a Norrod pedigree not have a winner in it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I ran across one or two dogs that were pure norrod, had gambler and spike in the back of the back on the 7, but empty almost in 1st 4.. I found it IRONICALLY finding a CURRENT OFRN/NORROD proven dog, and in doing so I found a ped that had harldy any winners or Ch's in it.. I thought it was odd, only in private hand written peds have I seen less Chs'/W's.. LOL Im searching through all the Norrod Peds, I have saved gme a sec.



> Heres a ped with winners fading back, but I kept it cause he's 1xw & I like the OFRN/Wilside crosses.. Is that Townsend dog owned by Rampage??
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [186669] :: UNDERDOG KENNELS' 1XL TOKTOK


ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [243689] :: SOSEBEE'S MS ANKAvery few winners in 4.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=162598

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=83126

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=119517

granted they are from really inbred dogs, but still no winners only paper CH's in front 4..

BUT GME a minute dont have much time now.. got all kids home.. :%

Ill find the one or two Im talking about, they were brood stock maybe off some real linbred dogs.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Are you talking titled dogs or winners? Because Lelu's father was a winner and many dogs right close up. If you were it the know, you know more of what you post about.
BTW every inbred/family bred dog are winners or they wouldn't be bred.
Reported titles nowadays are fine for fools.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Well I'll be damn. Hmm, I guess what I saw with Lil Rigger, Polly, Red Devil, Steel, Roz, etc. was just my imagination. And if that information isn't on Feds Online then what I know must not be so! Wow I never knew there was so much personal information out there on the Internet as gospel.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:rofl:  
Im pretty aware that the only dogs worth breeding for so long were CH(5Xw's+) or proven 2xw's ... if your breeding APBTs IMO they have to come from proven stock, JMO and other than private peded dogs, What Im saying is that only those two groups of dogs, bred tight bred right.. produce a winning dog out of dogs NOT proven, and can do so consistantly. What I meant by this statement is that only those dogs are consistant in producing game bred dog gene without consistantly being tested, THE MEN KNOW what they got without the roll, been in it so long they know what to look for. JMO and anyone with good sense and time experienced can make such assessments and maintain good Ch blood. What your saying is neither here nore there, because if you think there are NO norrod dogs without proven dogs in immediate 4 and fading out or obsolete between 4-7, then you obviously know more than the APBT online database and paper peds I've seen in the late 90's before everything went online. I wasn't knocking his dogs, they are my favs next to a pure Jocko dog.. BUT there is a big difference is thinking that there are NO, and NOT EVER SEEING ANY..(which is what you said).
I dont care about the paper titles, as much as the w's and all, I've been looking for a norrod dog off of 2 proven parents, getting hard to find of pure NORROD, can find dogs that have proven sire or dam current dogs, but nothing of straight proven stock or with proven parents. If you could read between the lines I was promoting the two different stock Norrod and Colby to each his own and each has GREAT PET QUALITY DOGS THAT PRODUCE WINNERS AND CAN BE WINNERS AS WELL.. So many great game blood has gone just to hot and wirey, not good pets.. JMO a good [] dog or game dog should be both.. JMO
To me I use to promote Colby or OFRN to a novice, not anymore I don't promote buying an APBT to any novice, I promote the pound and rescues as this point and keep the game dog world to us game dog peeps, but norrod and colby dogs are consistant in proving both at the same time, the way it should be.. Not a hot dog thats not a good dog around kids, that BS breedin JMO They should be the complete package, which is why I call Jocko/redboy and chinaman a fad, ppl quit paying attention to good ethics and just started stacking peds.. JMO again and pure Gospel  LOL

I got you Tx, I know what your saying.. But You asked and I provided.. not a empty 7 but an empty 4.. (again w's not show ch) I will PM you or post the 7 when I find it, but its 2 and almost dark gotta get back out with my dogs, and kick it with my kids.. Have a good1.


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Great post Firehazard


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

ch 3w /gr ch 5w.


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

I would bet the Norrod dogs are proven out. You may never see many "W"s in the current peds but with the years and care they have in these dogs I'm sure all parents are proven. I always thought it was understood by everyone that if you purchased a dog off of Ironline that it was from tested parents.


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Bang on the money Rob, and the truth is anyone who is stupid enough to post peds with w or game on the ped regardless of if they in are a place where it is legal or not is asking for trouble, there are still plenty of dogmen around in those countries where its against the law USA, even down here, and those people are realy just stupid to "Brag" about their dogs matching prowess in such a time.
The truth is if you know who and where to ask im sure you can find out what the dogs done.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Mostly everything nowadays is hand written if your matching dogs in the present day and time your not registering them with feds online or with any registry unless your a fool. Paper Trails are what lands folks in jail. Anyone who is deep in the game is keeping everything hand written.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

^^^ anyone who is proud to own a genuine piece of American history is asking for trouble??? is what your saying to me.. ... .

These dogs legacy are greater than any man in America, JMO game is game and has been American and unchanged for how long now.. Thanks Junkyard for catchin that, this hamster wheel called my brain spins so fast my fingers are consistantly studdering, most deff should have been a 3 and a 5, not only studdern but dislexic as well.. LOL MY BAD I FGD THAT UP... 
If anything would cause any trouble it would be statements like


> I would bet the Norrod dogs are proven out. You may never see many "W"s in the current peds but with the years and care they have in these dogs I'm sure all parents are proven. I always thought it was understood by everyone that if you purchased a dog off of Ironline that it was from tested parents.


 Thats the kinda thing that should go without being said, if it goes without being said 

The way I look at it, if you don't have nothing to hide~ if so private peds.. 
If the W's are gathered outside the country, thats like drinking in the air over the U.S. when your 18..  Same concept, should be disregarded in the same context; that simple truth of law. THIS IS NOT A SOCIALIST NATION!!! *freedom of speech..* wheeewwhhooooo! God Bless the U.S.
As a vet tech I have seen bear and cat hounds that have killed one or the other in yard or kennel fights while the owner was just out of reach or at work, those guys don't go up for charges and its the same context, to much nonsense and people need to be educated, _people need to know that a proven APBT has a more sound mentality that a show bred or kennel bred dog cannot guarantee cause they aren't ... proven.. *APBTs arent proven through fighting; proven through match*_, equivlent to a sanctioned boxing match in ethics of care and saftey, LOL some of these dogs lasted many more years than professional boxers. Common slang calls it a fight.. Boxing is not fighting is a match the same as the []. Ppl think dogs are forced to lock up, LOL... Some dogs bounce from country to country and come back to the U.S. to only leave the country again.

DID YOU KNOW THEY ARE TRYING TO BAN OUR APBT BOOKS OF HISTORIC [] KNOWLEDGE AND INFORMATION?????? ??? Why would they want to do that?? To create their OWN truth of the APBT and its history in the []. SO ITS IMPORTANT TO SPREAD THE TRUTH!!!!!!

BOTTOM LINE......
The way I was told, Ironline is so tight no matter what pup you pick you'll get a dog that will past the test thus Ironline the blood itself passes the test, LOL. Where did you read that I was dissing this line?? Most ppl ARE washing this stuff out not knowing how to pick the right dog after the mix, no consistancy, although some REAL good dogs pop up here and there.. NORROD and COLBY know these dogs, their dogs are of them and IMO know what they got without the roll.. Bred tight and bred right even the crossouts rock it out. "It aint braggin mthr4kr; if you back it up"(KidRk)


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I wasn't dissing anyone except for ppl who practice unethical breeding practices with great bloodlines; only those two line out of the most popular in the US, produce pets and game quality in the same stock consistantly.. I did make a typo.. So thanks for clearing that up..

In such a time??? When its dark what do you do?? Turn on the Light


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

FH I don't know if that first ? was directed to me or not but I am saying that anyone who is deeply involved in dog fighting is not going to be registering dogs or leaving any paper trails behind them they will keep everything hand written on a napkin LOL anything but putting it up online. So sometimes match information on a dog may not be available unless you have connections with the inner circles of those who are keeping hand written pedigree's. It's well known that the feds are tracking people down from Peds online. It's not safe these days to really register your dogs not dogs bred like ours because of the witch hunts. You don't have to be a dog fighter to be accused or labeled one all you have to do is own a bulldog.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

NO sadie, I was responding to JunkY, just got long winded.. so manythings intertwined.. 
VERY WELL SAID.. 
I totally get what your saying, KG of ADBA taught me that when I got my dog from Holts Jocko who was taken from ADBA and put into private peds. Where I line bred all my stock from for years.. Turk is the product and all thats left. 

I had to beat a badrep in a courtcase in Ok, it was a kennel fight while I was at work and they tried to say I was DF, when I came home while they cops where in my drive.. LOL DUUUMMMBAZZZZES, then the ACO shows up drunk and KNOWS me because IM THE GUY WHO PUTS DOWN THE POUND ANIMALS(well was then) and she put on my citation I was an 18 yr old female hispanic. I got my dog back, except the one that done the most damage, and the SPCA manager gave me the clear but the Judge said NOPE, so I got to go with the loss of my boudreaux dog and the court fee.. 

So I feel ya.. For me the only way is to educate everyone who thinks they know; ignorance is the majority and they do what they are told.


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## red baron (Dec 24, 2010)

*i agree*



kimber said:


> Where do you see a lot of camelot? You have got to be kidding me.  As for wanting to know more about the Lar-San line, there is no reason for this person to ask "Lindsey", when I know my dogs' lineage front and backward. If he is interested in the litter, he should be asking ME, not go on a board where the majority of members own non-papered rescues and/or do not know how to read or understand pedigrees.
> 
> FYI, Camelot is absolutely not a UKC show line. (Now that's funny. lololololol)


for 1 camelot is not a ukc show dog, ppl probably went on the cam web site and saw that he ukc reg his dogs and went with that.all u gotta do is a little research and know how to read a pedigree.and that'll speak for itself


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> ^^^ anyone who is proud to own a genuine piece of American history is asking for trouble??? is what your saying to me.. ... .
> 
> These dogs legacy are greater than any man in America, JMO game is game and has been American and unchanged for how long now.. Thanks Junkyard for catchin that, this hamster wheel called my brain spins so fast my fingers are consistantly studdering, most deff should have been a 3 and a 5, not only studdern but dislexic as well.. LOL MY BAD I FGD THAT UP...
> If anything would cause any trouble it would be statements like Thats the kinda thing that should go without being said, if it goes without being said
> ...


FH, you know I currently own a Norrod pup, so when the discussion of this bloodline comes up my ears perk up. I know, and have known, that you are an admirer of the blood that flows thru Ironline, so I've never thought that you had anything but good comments about this line. IMO it's all good I wouldn't give up my pup for all the tea in China. Keep on posting with your plethora of knowledge my friend and.....keep on bulldoggin'! Oh, and you spelled motherf*cker wrong LOL!!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

red baron said:


> for 1 camelot is not a ukc show dog, ppl probably went on the cam web site and saw that he ukc reg his dogs and went with that.all u gotta do is a little research and know how to read a pedigree.and that'll speak for itself


Sorry but Camelot bred dogs are not ADBA standard dogs so what does that make them? They are UKC show dogs (some of them) with working potential.Or they fall into the Bully (ABKC) standards which is what most of them today are anyway. They are far from APBT's I don't care what they were in the beginning all bullies stem from game dogs generations back it's what they are now and what direction they were taken that matters to me.


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## Chris' ToroFossa (Jul 19, 2019)

*Swoggers Debate...what makes a SOLID Pit?*

I know these posts are old, but I have to comment after reading some of these game dog fanatics and Kim Swoggers tit for tat posts. You game dog & [pure] bloodline obsessed pitbull junkies need to chill out. Every opinion here is subjective, and what you might call a good dog someone else might say they're shit. Everyone just needs to chill out and debate, if you will, like mature adults. Personally, Kim Swogger has produced some very good dogs, and I even know of some breeders using them in their foundation stock to bring in that little extra bone and the red coats (line breeding for too long causes the animals to shrink in size overtime...if you didn't know), and some dogs with heavy swogger influence are ADBA champions, accomplished hog catchers and are killing it in sporting competetion such as as weight pull, tread mill, Iron Dog, and PSA. My pup on the sire's side is a mixture of Yellow Bolio-Tombstone, Red-Boy Jocko with some Eli-Carver and on the dam's side heavy Greco-Castillo, Swoggers and OFRN, and he's a working BEAST, but also super sweet, affectionate, intelligent and calm inside the home; his temperament is top quality, balanced and stable and he fears NOTHING! One guy on here referred to this as being a scatter bred pitbull lol. Well I think we've learned a lot since bozo made that comment almost 10 yrs ago and any experienced breeder will tell you that if you keep line breeding or worse in-breeding game pitbulls beyond 6 or 7 generations without re-introducing fresh new lines with stable temperaments, you'll produce dogs so out of control and driven for one purpose that they have to be tethered their whole life...which is cruel. The key to producing quality dogs in this day and age is to strike a healthy balance of civilized pet who can still turn it on at the appropriate time. If your dog doesn't have that on/off switch, willingness to please and responsivness to it's master - that's a shit dog! And I don't care if it's a Macho Buck or Chinaman or Croata dog. Everyone here is a Nancy know-it-all on the subject. Give it a rest! We learn more when we listen.


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## TerpGal (Jul 28, 2021)

Chris' ToroFossa said:


> *Swoggers Debate...what makes a SOLID Pit?*
> 
> I know these posts are old, but I have to comment after reading some of these game dog fanatics and Kim Swoggers tit for tat posts. You game dog & [pure] bloodline obsessed pitbull junkies need to chill out. Every opinion here is subjective, and what you might call a good dog someone else might say they're shit. Everyone just needs to chill out and debate, if you will, like mature adults. Personally, Kim Swogger has produced some very good dogs, and I even know of some breeders using them in their foundation stock to bring in that little extra bone and the red coats (line breeding for too long causes the animals to shrink in size overtime...if you didn't know), and some dogs with heavy swogger influence are ADBA champions, accomplished hog catchers and are killing it in sporting competetion such as as weight pull, tread mill, Iron Dog, and PSA. My pup on the sire's side is a mixture of Yellow Bolio-Tombstone, Red-Boy Jocko with some Eli-Carver and on the dam's side heavy Greco-Castillo, Swoggers and OFRN, and he's a working BEAST, but also super sweet, affectionate, intelligent and calm inside the home; his temperament is top quality, balanced and stable and he fears NOTHING! One guy on here referred to this as being a scatter bred pitbull lol. Well I think we've learned a lot since bozo made that comment almost 10 yrs ago and any experienced breeder will tell you that if you keep line breeding or worse in-breeding game pitbulls beyond 6 or 7 generations without re-introducing fresh new lines with stable temperaments, you'll produce dogs so out of control and driven for one purpose that they have to be tethered their whole life...which is cruel. The key to producing quality dogs in this day and age is to strike a healthy balance of civilized pet who can still turn it on at the appropriate time. If your dog doesn't have that on/off switch, willingness to please and responsivness to it's master - that's a shit dog! And I don't care if it's a Macho Buck or Chinaman or Croata dog. Everyone here is a Nancy know-it-all on the subject. Give it a rest! We learn more when we listen.


I know this is old but pretty much this. Not to mention this blood is behind the most titled working APBT of all time. I am no dog sport person (would like to be though), just love APBTs and enjoy being active and having fun with my dogs. My boy Lemmy who is almost 10 now is a Swogger dog out of her dogs Eenie and Lil Ruben. He has been an absolute pleasure to own. Excellent temperament, structure, and intelligence. He was so easy to train. Very driven but most importantly has SELF CONTROL. If we are playing flirt pole in the yard he will give up the tug and wait patiently on my command before I release it and the game starts again. I was so sad when Kim retired. My boy is from one of her last breedings. When our old rescued lab mix died at 14 last summer I knew I wanted another Swogger dog and went on a hunt. I ended up getting a female pup bases on the reccomemdation of Kim herself. Our new pup Ruby's dam and Lemmy's dam were full sisters. So far so good. She's sweet, very smart, and very driven. Excited to see how she grows up.


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## Chris76 (May 26, 2021)

It's Lar-San and Wilrox stuff, with some foundation Castillo stuff, and maybe a couple of early Dangerzone dogs in there as well. Mostly UKC purple ribbon blood. No Camelot. These are not box dogs (dead game), nonetheless, they are for the most part rugged, working APBT good for weight pull and hog catching. Show n go bulldogs little on the larger side than the ADBA standard. Every bloodline produces its fair share of good and bad. Old post, but what the hell! 😀


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