# I Just HAD To Share This...



## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

*This Is My Friends Little Girl Calamity Jane aka G.I. JANE. I love her dearly, shes perfect. I really hope to get a pup outta her this spring.*


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh she's pretty!


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

WOW is she ever a pretty girl.:thumbsup:


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

Isn't she tho!


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

She's a beautiful girl, but breeding quality?


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

Breeding Quality?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

s.u.i.c.i.d.e said:


> Breeding Quality?


Yes,what makes her worthy of being bred,it must be more than "shes a cute dog" ya know....


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

Honestly I don't know never really researched her ped plus I don't know or have ever seen her father. so... Its my friend/family doing the breeding. This is the male there breeding her with. All of the puppies well 9 are already reserved. so.there all going to good homes.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

s.u.i.c.i.d.e said:


> Honestly I don't know never really researched her ped plus I don't know or have ever seen her father. so... Its my friend/family doing the breeding. This is the male there breeding her with. All of the puppies well 9 are already reserved. so.there all going to good homes.


any more photos of the father in a lighted area?he looks like a giant beast.,.,.


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

Yeah, I have a few more. His name is Georgia BlueBoy. We call him Boo Boo.









*Boo Boo And My Uncle TJ.*


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## evan_pitbull (Nov 7, 2006)

who is blueboy out of do you know?


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

I don't know the mom but the Dad is Villian from www.ultimatebluepitbulls.com.


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

Oh God.. :hammer:

edit: There going to breed the dog, wich u dont even know the dad. To a dog, that u dont even know the parents... for what reason now?
They obviously aren't breeding to improve the breed or their world, no titles, no work, no nuttin... so im my book.. this is just another BYB.

:roll:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

Do yourself a favor and do not aquire/purchase a pup from that litter.

You would be supporting a backyard breeder and end up with God-knows-what of a dog. I can't see much of the sire, but the dam is a horrible physical example of the breed. 

If you are dead-set on a new dog, at least go to a reputable, respectable breeder. And do your research. It will save you A LOT of grief.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Pfffffft God damn!!!!
Suicide Do what you want!!!! If you want a pup from her, get it!!!! I will tell you this, My Harley is from a BYB and i will tell ya, he is the best damn thing that i have got.... I think that they are awesome looking dogs and if anyone wants to argue with me, Bite me!!!


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> Do yourself a favor and do not aquire/purchase a pup from that litter.
> 
> You would be supporting a backyard breeder and end up with God-knows-what of a dog. I can't see much of the sire, but the dam is a horrible physical example of the breed.
> 
> If you are dead-set on a new dog, at least go to a reputable, respectable breeder. And do your research. It will save you A LOT of grief.


Here is my "god knows what of a dog"


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

Looks like an average pit bull to me.. nothing special.

And that isnt the point, why would u support a BYB? Why would u buy from a BYB? The more money u give them, the more they will breed their NOTHING SPEICAL dog... and most are hanging papers. Know a few on here. 

These types of things make me want to bang my head against a wall!! :curse:


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

I love those two dogs dearly, there family.. and if there breeding I would love to have a pup of hers because I think shes beautiful and want to give her/him a good home. Is that so wrong ? 

p.s. 
The people doing that breeding are friends, but I've known them so long I consider them family.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> Pfffffft God damn!!!!
> Suicide Do what you want!!!! If you want a pup from her, get it!!!! I will tell you this, My Harley is from a BYB and i will tell ya, he is the best damn thing that i have got.... I think that they are awesome looking dogs and if anyone wants to argue with me, Bite me!!!


It is quite irresponsible of anyone to say "go right ahead and do it"- That is, purchase from a BYB.

Since when is being "awesome looking" enough merit to breed a dog? You know how many "awesome looking" dogs are killed in shelters everyday? This breed's popularity is killing it, and only the best specimens of the breed need be bred. Neither of these dogs in question qualify as good specimens.

BYBs are responsible for the mess our breed is in. If you can accept that, fine. Go ahead and purchase the dog. But you best damn not call yourself an APBT lover. Because you obviously have only so much love and respect for the breed to go off and purchase a pup from untested, untitled, "good looking" parents.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

s.u.i.c.i.d.e said:


> I love those two dogs dearly, there family.. and if there breeding I would love to have a pup of hers because I think shes beautiful and want to give her/him a good home. Is that so wrong ?
> 
> p.s.
> The people doing that breeding are friends, but I've known them so long I consider them family.


Yes, it is. For reasons already mentioned. Family or not, a BYB is a BYB.

You want to provide a needy dog with a good home? Then cut out the middleman and go right to where half these pups from "awesome looking" parents wind up: The local animal shelter.

Being "beautiful" does not make a dog (Let alone a bulldog!) breeding quality. Excellant preformance, conformation, health, and temperament only begin to quality a dog.


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

OMG Damn this board really sucks!
Suicide do what you want. Its your choice your that has to feed, clean, care, and be responsible for the pup. No one else so screw what everyone else!


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## Judy (Dec 12, 2005)

GSDBulldog said:


> Yes, it is. For reasons already mentioned. Family or not, a BYB is a BYB.
> 
> *You want to provide a needy dog with a good home? Then cut out the middleman and go right to where half these pups from "awesome looking" parents wind up: The local animal shelter.*Being "beautiful" does not make a dog (Let alone a bulldog!) breeding quality. Excellant preformance, conformation, health, and temperament only begin to quality a dog.


We are not here to personally attack anyone, but it is important for us all to realize what I've bolded above in GSD's post. Unfortunatly, most of these dogs end up in the shelter.


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

I wouldn't be buying the dog. Its being givin' to me. And, I'd love to adopt from shelters thing is. I have to KNOW he/she would get along with Zildjian.. When a puppy it'll give he/she a chance to grow up around zildjian. Zildjian is my first prioity. Seriouly I know where you guys are coming from I do. I've heard it all before from other people. It was THERE decision to breed ( and people have requested it ) not mine. I'm willing to take one in. and btw, no they wont end up in shelters cuz I actually know all 9 people that they're going too. And 5 of them already have another pup from the same friends of mine.


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## Ottis Driftwood (Mar 16, 2006)

TashasLegend said:


> OMG Damn this board really sucks!
> Suicide do what you want. Its your choice your that has to feed, clean, care, and be responsible for the pup. No one else so screw what everyone else!


I second that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Judy said:


> We are not here to personally attack anyone, but it is important for us all to realize what I've bolded above in GSD's post. Unfortunatly, most of these dogs end up in the shelter.


Agreed. But isn't rescuing a pup from a BYB as noble as rescuing the pup from a shelter?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

come on!!why is this the only board on the net were people cant debate like adults,i mean really:hammer: There are alot of folks on here with varying degrees of knowledge on the apbt and its plight,but to get all bent out of shape over differing opinions or attempts to educate others is just foolish,lol.....The apbt is screwed weather you know it or not,supporting a byb
is keeping the peedlers and snake oil salesman in buisness....


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

cane76 said:


> come on!!why is this the only board on the net were people cant debate like adults,i mean really:hammer: There are alot of folks on here with varying degrees of knowledge on the apbt and its plight,but to get all bent out of shape over differing opinions or attempts to educate others is just foolish,lol.....The apbt is screwed weather you know it or not,*supporting a byb
> is keeping the peedlers and snake oil salesman in buisness....*


Bingo.

Suicide, aquiring a dog directly from a known BYB is not "rescue". It's selfish (Scratch that, stupid).

You say you need to know the temperament of said dog, as to keep Zildjian "safe"? Well, I hate to break it to you but dog aggression generally doesn't show itself until the dog reaches sexual maturity: AT 1-2 YEARS OF AGE. With your line of thinking, your best bet would be to adopt an adult dog with a known temperament. Puppies are unpredictable. My bitch, Pixie, was great with my other dogs from 12 weeks to 2 years. But one day, she "turned on". I now must keep her seperated from the rest (Which is not a problem, it was expected).

Whether you give these people money or not, you are still supporting them and their "business" by taking a puppy.

Why do you need a dog from a breeder? Do you wish to show? Well, if that is the case, I would first start by finding a breeder whose dogs fit the conformation standard. Sporting events? Find a breeder who caters to your interests. But if this dog will be nothing more that a house pet, I don't see why rescue is out of the question. Hell, you can even work and show rescue dogs with most registries. You just need an ILP registration and you can enter fun shows and other events.

Now, if it sounds like I am only pushing rescue, I'm not. I can respect a reputable, ethical breeder and their dogs. But I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would pursue a dog with pretty papers if all it's going to do is sit around the house, eat, poop, and play. (Which is why I have rescues lol).

In the end, your going to do what you want. But I just wish some people would STOP and THINK about the choices they are making.


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

cane76 said:


> come on!!why is this the only board on the net were people cant debate like adults,i mean really:hammer: There are alot of folks on here with varying degrees of knowledge on the apbt and its plight,but to get all bent out of shape over differing opinions or attempts to educate others is just foolish,lol.....The apbt is screwed weather you know it or not,supporting a byb
> is keeping the peedlers and snake oil salesman in buisness....


I dont have any problems w/ debating BUT some ppl on this board take it to the extreme and jump on the lets "attack bandwagon". Suicide was just showing a picture plain and simple. If anyone wanted to know something other then commenting on the dog(Thats what the thread was about not pedigree etc) could have been PM'd to her.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

TashasLegend said:


> I dont have any problems w/ debating BUT some ppl on this board take it to the extreme and jump on the lets "attack bandwagon". Suicide was just showing a picture plain and simple. If anyone wanted to know something other then commenting on the dog(Thats what the thread was about not pedigree etc) could have been PM'd to her.


But apart from a few posters, this thread has remained civil. Debate is healthy. BYBing is not.


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> But apart from a few posters, this thread has remained civil. Debate is healthy. BYBing is not.


If you don't like it you could have PM'd her is all I'm saying. If Suicide likes the dog like she said. Why is it of anyone else's concern. It's her choice! Like I said she's the one who is responsible for that dog!


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

TashasLegend said:


> If you don't like it you could have PM'd her is all I'm saying. If Suicide likes the dog like she said. Why is it of anyone else's concern. It's her choice! Like I said she's the one who is responsible for that dog!


And others are responsible for the clean-up.


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> And others are responsible for the clean-up.


Who said she was going to get rid of the dog? Did she or did she not say that the pups already have homes and they all know each other? Dogs ending up in shelters is not just from BYB's. Their are dogs from breeders that people couldnt handle the dog or whatever else things that people come up with.


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## Judy (Dec 12, 2005)

smokey_joe said:


> Agreed. But isn't rescuing a pup from a BYB as noble as rescuing the pup from a shelter?


That's a tough question, one that always gets varying answers.

YES if:
-you can talk the byb'er out of breeding (rare but it's been done)
-if in essence you are "saving" that dog from an abusive life (but in most cases there is no way really to know what "could have been").

NO reasons include:
-you are supporting byb'ing, and many people feel that it's one of the big downfalls of the breed -not to mention you COULD get one with problems. (COULD not saying WOULD - it's basically a crapshoot). On the other hand, it's also a crapshoot to get a dog out of the pound.

Dunno, there are so many different factors and situations. I'd love to hear more POV if we can keep it civil.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

TashasLegend said:


> Who said she was going to get rid of the dog? Did she or did she not say that the pups already have homes and they all know each other? Dogs ending up in shelters is not just from BYB's. *Their are dogs from breeders that people couldnt handle the dog or whatever else things that people come up with.*


And thus, they came from BYBs. A responsible breeder screens all homes heavily, and generally most people they sell dogs too would have the common sense to contact the breeder if anything came up and the dog could no longer be kept. And of course, any responsible breeder will take any of their dogs back, no questions asked.


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> And thus, they came from BYBs. A responsible breeder screens all homes heavily, and generally most people they sell dogs too would have the common sense to contact the breeder if anything came up and the dog could no longer be kept. And of course, any responsible breeder will take any of their dogs back, no questions asked.


I know that but there are some people who wont do that. And will just dump the dog off. I've seen it done. I dont understand it but it happens. Then what a dog running around on the streets is now being taken to where? The pound, shelter, etc.
And did you ask Suicide would the breeders take a pup back say if she or one of the owners of the pup could no longer care for the dog? I didnt see that part. I'm not trying to be a pain the ass but I just cant stand when people just Assume things without asking questions first and waiting on the answer.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

TashasLegend said:


> I know that but there are some people who wont do that. And will just dump the dog off. I've seen it done. I dont understand it but it happens. Then what a dog running around on the streets is now being taken to where? The pound, shelter, etc.
> And did you ask Suicide would the breeders take a pup back say if she or one of the owners of the pup could no longer care for the dog? I didnt see that part. I'm not trying to be a pain the ass but I just cant stand when people just Assume things without asking questions first and waiting on the answer.


I'm just looking at the two dogs in question and wondering how you can be so defensive of a BYB?


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> I'm just looking at the two dogs in question and wondering how you can be so defensive of a BYB?


 I'm not being defensive. I'm asking questions. I didnt ask questions on the dog's pedigree and such b/c I don't know a whole lot about different lines and suicide wanted comments on the dog and nothing else just the dog. I just dont understand how a thread about someone posting a picture od a dog can turn into something else.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

TashasLegend said:


> OMG Damn this board really sucks!
> Suicide do what you want. Its your choice your that has to feed, clean, care, and be responsible for the pup. No one else so screw what everyone else!


ill third that


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

wheezie said:


> ill third that


I'm going back to our board! For sure!


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## Crown Royal (Oct 20, 2006)

Can't we all just get along??? Yes we can!!!

With that said, Taking a "gift" from a BYB only makes them breed again. You're giving them a safety net if they can't sell all their pups. IMO...my opinion only...is if you're not wanting to buy from a reputable breeder for a certain reason (weight pull, catching, conformation, temperment, etc) then go get a rescue.

I don't want to see anyone jump this board...everyone's knowledge and input is needed here


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> And thus, they came from BYBs. A responsible breeder screens all homes heavily, and generally most people they sell dogs too would have the common sense to contact the breeder if anything came up and the dog could no longer be kept. And of course, any responsible breeder will take any of their dogs back, no questions asked.


When I got Zildjian, I had all kinds of regulations before getting him. I spent $600 building a kennel (putting a 5 ft high 50 square feet fence, to run around in) AROUND a 12x12 foot brick house, with a insalated wooded dog house with a heat lamp ( in the bedded area). plus hes got my bed to sleep in, I don't let him stay outside over night, its cruel to make them stay in cold weather ( in my opinion). Plus I live on 9 acre of land for him to roam when im out in the woods doing things. (fenced of course). I mean this dog is living better then I do. My uncle TJ makes sure they are taken care of and they DO take them back in if there is any kind of situation they do NOT just let them go to shelters EVER.... And if that isn't being "screened HEAVILY" I don't know what is.


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## Crown Royal (Oct 20, 2006)

If what you're saying is true then Uncle TJ may not be a BYB. A breeder that agrees to take back an unwanted dog is good in my eyes. You sound like a very good owner/provider for your dogs.

But what qualities make these dogs better for the breed? Dogs should be bred to improve the breed, not for money.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Let me suggest to the newbies that they dont jump on someones a** that they dont know anything about.oppinions are good when they are not pushed past the point of respect. If you have something to teach? then teach. if you can make someone smile? then make them smile. If you have an oppinion? then give it. you dont have to shove it down our throats, we get it:thumbsup:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

Crown Royal said:


> If what you're saying is true then Uncle TJ may not be a BYB. A breeder that agrees to take back an unwanted dog is good in my eyes. You sound like a very good owner/provider for your dogs.
> 
> But what qualities make these dogs better for the breed? Dogs should be bred to improve the breed, not for money.


A BYB is a BYB is a BYB.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

DUH!!!!!!!
So i guess that in "your opinion" as long as the dog has papers, Then its not a BYB... GOOD phew glad that we got that cleared up, Cuz now im going to find a nice looking male with papers to breed with pantera and im having puppies...Yep, lots of them.... As long as they have papers right??

You know what, if i could find another dog like my Harley from a BYB, i would buy 10... The dogs were in great condition and the house was clean, the dogs were healthy.... So i got him.... Damn it.... THE BEST THING THAT I HAVE DONE.... 
A person can go and spend $600 on a dog and it could still end up in the pound... It does not matter where the hell the dog came from... Maybe not everyone has the money to pay for these $600-$1500 dogs!! I know i didnt... Its not where the dog came from, IT IS THE PERSON...... I know a guy that wanted to give me $1000 for one of Harleys pups if it was white... If he had that kind of money, Whos to say that he couldnt buy it from a breeder??? I just didnt know any breeders at the time...Just the pups that i had... all 22 pups, (2 litters) And none that i know of ended up in the shelter... Oshawa is not a big town and i look all the time....

*SO IN MY "OPINION, IF THE PUPS ARE TAKIN CARE OF AND HEALTHY, SO BE IT!!!! *

You dont like that, I dont care... If i was to breed my dog, They would have papers, shots and vet checked....I could care less that Harley dont have papers... In "my opinion" he is better then any dog with papers.....

:snap:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> DUH!!!!!!!
> *So i guess that in "your opinion" as long as the dog has papers, Then its not a BYB... GOOD phew glad that we got that cleared up*, Cuz now im going to find a nice looking male with papers to breed with pantera and im having puppies...Yep, lots of them.... As long as they have papers right??
> 
> You know what, if i could find another dog like my Harley from a BYB, i would buy 10... The dogs were in great condition and the house was clean, the dogs were healthy.... So i got him.... Damn it.... THE BEST THING THAT I HAVE DONE....
> ...


Was this directed towards me?

I have a great dog who came to us secondhand, originally from a BYB. But there is no way in hell I would hand my money over to a puppy peddlin' backyard breeder just to get a "Pixie clone". I value the breed over induvidual dogs, it seems. So be it.

Your post made no sense, paticulary if it was directed towards me as I feel a dog needs more than papers to prove it's merit.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

^^^^ No, its pointed to everyone that thinks that its such a bad thing, Iam against people that sell for money and that is it, They dont look at the breed just the $$$$$ Of the matter, which i already know, There is no profit...
I want to breed pitbulls bad, I would love to do it.. But cuz i dont have a big area like most breeders have, I shouldnt do it...??? No, I could do 1 litter every year, cus i only have 1 female, I wouldnt deal with more then i could handle.... The lady that i got Har off of was great.. They didnt have their shots, but we got them for Harley... I think if someone wants to get from a "person that breeds out of their home" Then go for it, You know how many of my friends have my dogs pup... I just watched one for a month... Why cuz she came to me and told me that she was in trouble, so i took the dog in for her... And thats what i told her... I know where a few of my pups are, and they are doing great... I would think i did a great job at those pups, they were clean and healthy and socialzed... BUt i get offened at the BYB title!!! Its insulting... I worked my ass off for those dogs...


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> ^^^^ No, its pointed to everyone that thinks that its such a bad thing, Iam against people that sell for money and that is it, They dont look at the breed just the $$$$$ Of the matter, which i already know, There is no profit...
> I want to breed pitbulls bad, I would love to do it.. But cuz i dont have a big area like most breeders have, I shouldnt do it...??? No, I could do 1 litter every year, cus i only have 1 female, I wouldnt deal with more then i could handle.... The lady that i got Har off of was great.. They didnt have their shots, but we got them for Harley... I think if someone wants to get from a "person that breeds out of their home" Then go for it, You know how many of my friends have my dogs pup... I just watched one for a month... Why cuz she came to me and told me that she was in trouble, so i took the dog in for her... And thats what i told her... I know where a few of my pups are, and they are doing great... I would think i did a great job at those pups, they were clean and healthy and socialzed... BUt i get offened at the BYB title!!! Its insulting... I worked my ass off for those dogs...


Those who breed just to breed, even if all their pups are healthy and well-rounded are still BYBs. (And ALL pups should have at least a first set of shots before leaving the breeder's home!)

The breeders who are doing the breed good rarely place dogs with the public. They seldom breed, but when they do, it's a breeding made up of two dogs who have _proven_ themselves.

Why even bother getting a "well bred" dog from a BYB if the dog will do nothing but sit around all day, go for walks, etc.? Most, if not all, of our breeds problems stemmed from breeders who placed dogs with those who should not own them.

There is more to breeding than just making sure the pups "get great homes". It's about preserving the breed, and in this day and age SAVING it.


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

I like my:doggy: like I like my chronic! With or without papers! From a kennel or from some guy in front of the liquor store! I love the breed as a whole not just a chosen few like some. If you want a pup from a dog you've come to love as you say then go for it! :thumbsup:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> I like my:doggy: like I like my chronic! With or without papers! From a kennel or from some guy in front of the liquor store! I love the breed as a whole not just a chosen few like some. If you want a pup from a dog you've come to love as you say then go for it! :thumbsup:


So you'd hand over $100 to the puppy peddler in front of the liquor store?


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

If I Wanted The Pup, Why Not? ITS BETTER IN MY HANDS THEN SOMEONE WHO IN TURN WILL FIGHT IT, THEN BURN IT IN SOME ALLEY!


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> So you'd hand over $100 to the puppy peddler in front of the liquor store?


WOULD YOU RESCUE THAT PUPPY?


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

No. I would not give him my money or my support. If the dogs were in bad condition I would call AC and hope that his business is shut down.


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> No. I would not give him my money or my support. If the dogs were in bad condition I would call AC and hope that his business is shut down.


 Who said the pup would be in bad condition? What if the puppy peddler just could no longer care for it? And why shut down the liquor store? The peddler does't own or operate the business. In CHICAGO, animal control will put the purest bred Pitbull to sleep no matter if it cost $3500.00 and is only 2 weeks old. :flush:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> Who said the pup would be in bad condition? What if the puppy peddler just could no longer care for it? And why shut down the liquor store? The peddler does't own or operate the business. In CHICAGO, animal control will put the purest bred Pitbull to sleep no matter if it cost $3500.00 and is only 2 weeks old. :flush:


I meant shut down the puppy peddler. Not the liquor store. If he can't suddenly care for it, he'll just sell it. End of story. And by being able to easily hand off his pups, chances are he'll breed again.

The purest of purebred APBTs, the best examples of the breed, are being euthanized as we speak. There are just too damn many "pit bulls". THAT is why I would not support a BYB in any way, shape, or form.

I would love if every dog on a BYB's yard were culled. Fair? Not too the dogs. But it's gotten to the point where we can't put induvidual dogs over the entire breed.


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> I meant shut down the puppy peddler. Not the liquor store. If he can't suddenly care for it, he'll just sell it. End of story. And by being able to easily hand off his pups, chances are he'll breed again.
> 
> The purest of purebred APBTs, the best examples of the breed, are being euthanized as we speak. There are just too damn many "pit bulls". THAT is why I would not support a BYB in any way, shape, or form.
> 
> I would love if every dog on a BYB's yard were culled. Fair? Not too the dogs. But it's gotten to the point where we can't put induvidual dogs over the entire breed.


I agree the problem is out of hand, but it's not just because of byb's. I wish it was that simple! In fact backyard breeding is illegal in "MY KINDA TOWN CHICAGO IS........." lol. Pet stores cant sell them either. In fact for some who wish to purchase an apbt in Chicago the byb is their only hope! Maybe parents shouldn't purchase pet's their kids arent gonna care for. Maybe owners should have fences their apbt's cant jump or dig under. The APBT is the cheapest priced dog in any classified ad in both the Chicago Sun-Times and Chicago Tribune. No wonder their flying off the shelves (so to say). Maybe thats because backyard breeding is illegal!


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> I agree the problem is out of hand, but it's not just because of byb's. I wish it was that simple! In fact backyard breeding is illegal in "MY KINDA TOWN CHICAGO IS........." lol. Pet stores cant sell them either. In fact for some who wish to purchase an apbt in Chicago the byb is their only hope! Maybe parents shouldn't purchase pet's their kids arent gonna care for. Maybe owners should have fences their apbt's cant jump or dig under. The APBT is the cheapest priced dog in any classified ad in both the Chicago Sun-Times and Chicago Tribune. No wonder their flying off the shelves (so to say). Maybe thats because backyard breeding is illegal!


We need to police our own. Stop selling dogs to idiots. Get our dogs out in the public eye. And EDUCATE when possible. If this means trying to convince someone to NOT aquire a dog from a BYB, then so be it...


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> We need to police our own. Stop selling dogs to idiots. Get our dogs out in the public eye. And EDUCATE when possible. If this means trying to convince someone to NOT aquire a dog from a BYB, then so be it...


 I agree with the not selling dogs to idiots, and educating the public but byb's aren't all bad.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> I agree with the not selling dogs to idiots, and educating the public but byb's aren't all bad.


A bybs a novice..
so some may have good intentions and actually enjoy the breed but that dosent mean anything.
The dogs screwed in general,its the #1 breed for the the rookie to the dog world and the idiot who wants to make a quick buck and anybody who wants a gansta status symbol,bybs are just one of the thousands of problems..
Suicide,do your thing,Its your choice weather we like it or not.Actually your lucky you posted this thread on this board,alot of other boards would of tarred and feathered you...anyways good luck..


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

What?? Im not looking for a pup.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> I agree with the not selling dogs to idiots, and educating the public *but byb's aren't all bad.*


Uh, and how do you figure this? Give me one damn good reason as to how BYBs are helping our breed. Just one.



> its the #1 breed for the the rookie to the dog world and the idiot who wants to make a quick buck and anybody who wants a gansta status symbol,bybs are just one of the thousands of problems..


And, generally speaking*, how do these dogs end up in the wrong hands?

Because someone sold it to them.

These dogs are coming from somewhere, and it a'int outta thin air.

*Dogs can end up in the hands of idiots in various ways. Theft, finding a stray, adopting from a shelter/irresponsible rescue, etc.


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## bullybabe (Mar 2, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> Why even bother getting a "well bred" dog from a BYB if the dog will do nothing but sit around all day, go for walks, etc.?


My dog is just a pet. He is fed, he is loved dearly, he is played with, has toys, gets loads of attention, he is like my kid. But becasue I don't work him or show him I shouldn't own him??

**not saying your talking about me in general, just using me as an example.***


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

bullybabe said:


> My dog is just a pet. He is fed, he is loved dearly, he is played with, has toys, gets loads of attention, he is like my kid. But becasue I don't work him or show him I shouldn't own him??
> 
> **not saying your talking about me in general, just using me as an example.***


No. But why did you go to a breeder instead of opting for rescue, if you didn't need the dog for any specific reasons?


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> No. But why did you go to a breeder instead of opting for rescue, if you didn't need the dog for any specific reasons?


I know here at the HS they don't adopt out APBT's. They just PTS doesnt matter how well behaved they are. The APBT rescues here do a good job w/ them But even they have a hell of a time pulling them from the HS here. Thats why I got I went to a breeder. I don't know how it is in FL. But it sucks up here when it comes to adopting APBT's from HS.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

TashasLegend said:


> I know here at the HS they don't adopt out APBT's. They just PTS doesnt matter how well behaved they are. The APBT rescues here do a good job w/ them But even they have a hell of a time pulling them from the HS here. Thats why I got I went to a breeder. I don't know how it is in FL. But it sucks up here when it comes to adopting APBT's from HS.


I've never visited our local HS (I'm not even sure we have one), but my county shelter does not adopt APBTs out most of the time. Neighboring counties, it's a different story. $30 and an ID will get you whatever you want, no questions asked. Shelters such as that are also part of the problem.

Now, I can understand that, to an extent. If a good breeder will let you have a dog, have at it (I know I will be taking up the offer sometime soon). My real issue lies with people who, even after being edu-ma-cated, still purchase from BYBs, and thus keep supporting them. Or those who refuse to see the big pictures...


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## bullybabe (Mar 2, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> No. But why did you go to a breeder instead of opting for rescue, if you didn't need the dog for any specific reasons?


Why does it matter???


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

It was a simple question, no need to get defensive.

I just can't for the life of me understand why people need a house pet with "pretty papers" to be happy...


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## bullybabe (Mar 2, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> It was a simple question, no need to get defensive.
> 
> I just can't for the life of me understand why people need a house pet with "pretty papers" to be happy...


I am 100% positive I would have gotten my dog with or without papers.


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

bullybabe said:


> Why does it matter???


WHY WOULD U EVEN ASK THIS QUESTION???

BEACAUSE JUST BUYING A DOG FROM ANYONE AND SUPPORTING WHAT THEY DO... OMG, I WISH I WAS BORN A 100YRS AGO WITH THE DOG MEN AND REAL APBTS.. WHERE THEY WERENT SOLD TO JUST ANYONE.

:flush:


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> Uh, and how do you figure this? Give me one damn good reason as to how BYBs are helping our breed. Just one.
> 
> And, generally speaking*, how do these dogs end up in the wrong hands?
> 
> ...


 Here's one! Check out the avatar! Does this dog look mistreated? Should I like you said earlier and like your comrads on game-dog go and put her down since she comes from a byb and has no papers?!?!? Not to mention she has an extra toe on one of her hind legs! Get real! She has a perfectly good home and thank GOD didnt fall in your hands. And if that's not enough a good reason then what about me the person who agrees to disagree with the ALMIGHTY GSD? lol. They dont adopt out pitbulls in Chicago anymore! Im a happy camper and my dog is damn sure happy due to a backyard breeder! :cheers: :woof: :stick:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

bullybabe said:


> I am 100% positive I would have gotten my dog with or without papers.


It's besides the point, which keeps gettings lost apparently.


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

Nothing........


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## bullybabe (Mar 2, 2006)

KingofthePIT said:


> WHY WOULD U EVEN ASK THIS QUESTION???
> 
> BEACAUSE JUST BUYING A DOG FROM ANYONE AND SUPPORTING WHAT THEY DO... OMG, I WISH I WAS BORN A 100YRS AGO WITH THE DOG MEN AND REAL APBTS.. WHERE THEY WERENT SOLD TO JUST ANYONE.
> 
> :flush:


My question wasn't directed towards the breeder part. I wanted to know why it matters if you work the dog or if it sits int he house all day.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

bullybabe said:


> My question wasn't directed towards the breeder part. I wanted to know why it matters if you work the dog or if it sits int he house all day.


Because if it sits in the house all day, well. . . Why the need to go to a breeder for a house pet?


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

KingofthePIT said:


> Nothing........


I wonder if a couple of members of another site our invading ours to wreak havok. But while your going crazy behind your computer im laughing at you and that thread you threw up about a byb who killed your dog. lol. Like I said "get real". Im not here to argue. This was about s.u.i.c.i.d.e. getting a pup from two dog's he admired. All of a sudden GSD had a problem with that not me. S.u.i.c.i.d.e. isn't breeding these dogs. He's providing a home to one while 9 others already have good homes to go to. Read and comprehend the post as a whole before you have a temper tantrum k.o.t.p.........


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> Here's one! Check out the avatar! Does this dog look mistreated? Should I like you said earlier and like your comrads on game-dog go and put her down since she comes from a byb and has no papers?!?!? Not to mention she has an extra toe on one of her hind legs! Get real! She has a perfectly good home and thank GOD didnt fall in your hands. And if that's not enough a good reason then what about me the person who agrees to disagree with the ALMIGHTY GSD? lol. They dont adopt out pitbulls in Chicago anymore! Im a happy camper and my dog is damn sure happy due to a backyard breeder! :cheers: :woof: :stick:


Since when did I say all dogs purchased from a BYB should be euthanized? That would include one of my own!

I said I wouldn't mind if all the dogs on a BYBs yard were culled, and it's the truth. It wouldn't include your dog, unless your peddlin' her pups somewhere too. And if that were the case...

Maybe you should look at why they don't adopt out pit bulls in Chicago. Irresponsible owners, street fighters, backyard breeders... The problem stems somewhere. And pparently you have no problem supporting these folks.

I'm not claiming to be "all mighty". Chances are I'm not right half the time. But I'm a loud and outspoken person with strong (justifiable) opinions. Shoot me?


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> I wonder if a couple of members of another site our invading ours to wreak havok. But while your going crazy behind your computer im laughing at you and that thread you threw up about a byb who killed your dog. lol. Like I said "get real". Im not here to argue. This was about s.u.i.c.i.d.e. getting a pup from two dog's he admired. All of a sudden GSD had a problem with that not me. S.u.i.c.i.d.e. isn't breeding these dogs. He's providing a home to one while 9 others already have good homes to go to. Read and comprehend the post as a whole before you have a temper tantrum k.o.t.p.........


Actually, KingofthePit isn't a member at the site in question. And I have a problem with just as many there.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

maybe you should be more carefull about what you say because you sound like a broken record here, you probably piss people off at the other site too!


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

redog said:


> maybe you should be more carefull about what you say because you sound like a broken record here, you probably piss people off at the other site too!


Wow, from the whole topic the only person who seemed to really want to do postitive for the breed was GSDbulldog. Because she uses all the brain cells and both eyes.

And yeah she prolly pisses people off on the other site, because they were prolly ignorant BYBs or pupper peddlers. :stick:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

redog said:


> maybe you should be more carefull about what you say because you sound like a broken record here, you probably piss people off at the other site too!


Which is why I don't post much :thumbsup:

If I sound like a broken record, perhaps some of what I'm trying to say will sink in. I can understand missing the point once or twice, but when it's on the screen a good 70+ (How many posts do I have?) times...

And besides, aren't you also a mod or member at Clubbully? I post there too as well, but it's been a while. I'm not a game-dog love child, geeze.


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## bullybabe (Mar 2, 2006)

KingofthePIT said:


> Wow, from the whole topic the only person who seemed to really want to do postitive for the breed was GSDbulldog. Because she uses all the brain cells and both eyes.
> 
> And yeah she prolly pisses people off on the other site, because they were prolly ignorant BYBs or pupper peddlers. :stick:


that's being judgemental. you don't even know those people. how would you know.


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

I knew it from jump! I'd come to regret the day you set foot on this site! Game-dog.com might have everything some might want in a forum. But when it comes to it's members and their arrogant, as well as ignorant post. Im glad I was banned. Im proud to be a member of this site! This site is been great until GSD put his foot in it. Go home and tell em' PLAYBOY sent you!


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## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> I knew it from jump! I'd come to regret the day you set foot on this site! Game-dog.com might have everything some might want in a forum. But when it comes to it's members and their arrogant, as well as ignorant post. Im glad I was banned. Im proud to be a member of this site! This site is been great until GSD put his foot in it. Go home and tell em' PLAYBOY sent you!


Well a few recent new members have been banned from game-dog too. And countless other forums...


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## Derek79 (Jul 15, 2006)

I dont see a problem with BYB. I see a problem with irresponsible ones. And the same can be said for any 'reputable' breeder I am sure.

The problem is owners, not the breeders.

Besides, if I went to a BYB, saw the pups were well cared for, and the parents looked nice and healthy, and they only wanted $100 or so, and the breeder wants $1000...... why should I by from the breeder? Like you said, its all about the money, right?

I think its up to the potential owners choice, buy from where you want. But be responsible.

I want another 'pit' because of the breed itself. I think they look good, they are a good size, they are athletic, and well behaved if treated properly. I will get that from any pit regardless of the breeder. I am not looking for a show dog, so there is no reason to go to a 'reputable' breeder, because I will pay out my a$$. I will possibly look at a shelter/rescue, but ultimately it is MY decision.

Like redog said, sure inform people of your opinion, but you act like a freaking facist muslim/christian/whoever trying to force YOUR opinion.

Sheesh.

:cheers:


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> I knew it from jump! I'd come to regret the day you set foot on this site! Game-dog.com might have everything some might want in a forum. But when it comes to it's members and their arrogant, as well as ignorant post. Im glad I was banned. Im proud to be a member of this site! This site is been great until GSD put his foot in it. Go home and tell em' PLAYBOY sent you!


Wow. I've never once set anything personal, threatening, or offensive to you.

And for the record, I browse Game-Dog, but I don't live there. This is the internet, for God's sake. You all act like different forums are like opposing gangs. I post and browse everywhere, and I still don't see how any of this is relevant?

Anyway, care to answer my question OUTLAW?



> Well a few recent new members have been banned from game-dog too. And countless other forums...


Only been banned from one, and it was PBSmiles. But that's a different story :thumbsup:


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> I knew it from jump! I'd come to regret the day you set foot on this site! Game-dog.com might have everything some might want in a forum. But when it comes to it's members and their arrogant, as well as ignorant post. Im glad I was banned. Im proud to be a member of this site! This site is been great until GSD put his foot in it. Go home and tell em' PLAYBOY sent you!


Glad u can be mature about this :clap:

You dont like me cause i busted one of ur members are a paper hanger and a BYB, and she hasnt posted since.. good.
You dont like GSD for whatever the hell reason.

And im BANNED from game-dog for "games" whatever the hell that is..

And i dont really care if u like me or not, or if u want me on the forum or not. I will stay and keep my calm, or at least try. 
And i will only bust the BYBs and puppy peddlers and paper hangers, cause i have true pride in this breed, no matter the cost.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

> The problem is owners, not the breeders


But where did these owners get the dogs? Not everyone with $100 should be able to own an APBT.


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## Derek79 (Jul 15, 2006)

After posting I looked at the local shelter in Rio Rancho..... right at the top.

http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=7561439

A beautiful dog, I may have to take a look.


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> Only been banned from one, and it was PBSmiles. But that's a different story :thumbsup:


Aw, think she was talking to me!


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

Derek79 said:


> After posting I looked at the local shelter in Rio Rancho..... right at the top.
> 
> http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=7561439
> 
> A beautiful dog, I may have to take a look.


You should, he's a looker for sure.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

OUTLAW said:


> What?? Im not looking for a pup.


sorry outlaw,i wasnt talking to you,my mistake....


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## KingofthePIT (Dec 6, 2006)

Derek79 said:


> After posting I looked at the local shelter in Rio Rancho..... right at the top.
> 
> http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=7561439
> 
> A beautiful dog, I may have to take a look.


LOVE the ears, my favorite!

Take a look, wont hurt no body


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## Derek79 (Jul 15, 2006)

Its a female, which I prefer, always had female dogs.

My wife is scared to get another pit, because of what happened to Pixie. So we will see.

Sure is a cute pup.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

KingofthePIT said:


> :
> 
> You dont like me cause i busted one of ur members are a paper hanger and a BYB, and she hasnt posted since.. good.
> You dont like GSD for whatever the hell reason.
> ...


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> Wow. I've never once set anything personal, threatening, or offensive to you.
> 
> And for the record, I browse Game-Dog, but I don't live there. This is the internet, for God's sake. You all act like different forums are like opposing gangs. I post and browse everywhere, and I still don't see how any of this is relevant?
> 
> ...


Im not a gamblin' man but I can bet your the next next thing left in 2006 since saddam got the chair kicked from up under his legs. I'll holla.................


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> But where did these owners get the dogs? Not everyone with $100 should be able to own an APBT.


Agreed. This is why Uncle TJ does "research" background check, whatever you want to call it to make sure they have a good place to live with good intenetions for the dog. and he isnt a BREEDER per say. Hes done two litters in the last 3 yrs. And he is THINKING of breeding Calamity isn't for sure yet.
and they all (the pups) have there first shots before they leave. and he wants to keep intouch with all the puppys too.


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

s.u.i.c.i.d.e said:


> Agreed. This is why Uncle TJ does "research" background check, whatever you want to call it to make sure they have a good place to live with good intenetions for the dog. and he isnt a BREEDER per say. Hes done two litters in the last 3 yrs. And he is THINKING of breeding Calamity isn't for sure yet.
> and they all (the pups) have there first shots before they leave. and he wants to keep intouch with all the puppys too.


 Thanks for clearing up this mess game-dog created. I knew you were the:angel: and they were full of  ! Now I can go to sleep! Cause I put in more than a 8hr. shift. I put in overdrive for you. Someone I dont even know. But it was worth it due to the fact I knew GSD years ago. And he wasn't  then and I'll be damn if he's  now!


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## ZildjiansMommy (Mar 19, 2006)

Heh, I didn't mean to start anything. honest.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

Ha, Outlaw, you give yourself to much credit. Not once have I claimed to be anything more than an average pet owner. I'm not a "he" either. There goes your claims about knowing me.

Suicide, it's great that he is taking the time to place the pups responsibly. So hopefully all will be spoken for prior to their birth. I'm not saying "don't breed", just go about it the right way.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Well I lot of posts without much being said sota the way a political debate goes are any of you running for office? 
I have always taken in the left overs do I support BYB's I guess in around about way I doBecause I supply the home when they are left for garbage. I did buy a pit pup outside Walmart. 50$ was I supporting the BYB yes I guess I was. At the time I was saving her in my mind from an uncertain future. I had Destiny for a a little over a year. She had many health issues demodix mange the main one. After spaying her and $$$$$$$ I had to do the hardest thing I had to put her down. Would I do it again yes yes I would. She had a good life life with me. Their will always be BYBs. What we can do is offer a home be responisable for those in our charge. s.u.i.c.i.d.e do what you feel in your heart is right you have to live with your choices not any one elses.

My dogs may not be papered and they are altered but I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

Judy said:


> That's a tough question, one that always gets varying answers.
> 
> YES if:
> -you can talk the byb'er out of breeding (rare but it's been done)
> ...


I see exactly what you are saying. It's hard to determine if you are doing right or wrong. I mean, if you came upon poor bred pups and felt like they weren't being taken care of, and thought maybe they would be fought later, could you in good conscience leave them there? But, @ the same time, you would be supporting the people that bred them, so could you in good conscience do that? I don't know, everyone's situation is soooo different. It's so hard to say what's always right and what's always wrong, because, like you said, there are so many different factors.

What do you think seperates a BYB from a reputable breeder? Is it the love of the breed, the betterment of the breed, someone who makes little to no money? I mean, someone could have awsome dogs that fit standard and have amazing temperment. They could be in weight pull, dog shows, and community service. But, the breeder may sell the pups to people who will do none of these things with their dogs. Does that make them a BYB? Not trying to keep the argument going, just really am curiouse as to who's to say it's ok for one person to breed, and not another.


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## Judy (Dec 12, 2005)

Smokey Joe, those are good questions. And if we can all have a decent discussion, I will let this thread continue. 

If not, I will close it.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

> What do you think seperates a BYB from a reputable breeder?


Here is a good place to start, http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html

The only thing on that website I disagree with is the "Responsible breeders don't repeat breedings".

The last bit at the end ties it together-

"Responsible breeders improve the breed. BYBs damage it"


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

I think all you pro-BYB ppl are missing the point. If I am correct, what GSD is saying is that if all you want is a pet, why not rescue?

Take a look at these dogs ...
































































ALL of these dogs are in rescue as we speak. ALL of these dogs will make great pets. Some of these dogs will be PTS b/c homes could not be found for them.

Why supoort a $$$ minded BYB when you can help 2 pit bulls in need??? By this I mean you rescue one pit bull & thus save it's life. By bringing a rescue into your home, not only are you saving that dog, but you also open up a spot in a rescue center into which another pit bull can be placed. So thus, by rescuing one pit bull, you save the lives of TWO pit bulls. But on the other hand, if you choose to buy from a BYB, you doom at least two pit bulls to death.

Oh & BTW, as a side note I would not say any of those pups have good homes just yet. A lot of ppl will tell you they want a pup off XYZ, but when time comes to pay the piper, it is not unusal to find those who wanted a puppy so badly 4 mos ago to be conspiciously absent.

JMHO ...


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

> I think all you pro-BYB ppl are missing the point. If I am correct, what GSD is saying is that if all you want is a pet, why not rescue?


That's exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks ABK.

Some here seem to think I'm a high-and-mighty bulldog owner with "well bred" yard decorations. Far from it. I own 6 beautiful, well-behaved rescued dogs. I even get a bit of show and work done on the side, thanks to ILPs and fun shows/pulls.

In the future, will I purchase a dog? Yes, because I have very specific wants and needs for this dog, as well as some goals to work towards. But as long as I want house dogs, therapy dogs, and ocassional competition dogs. . . You'll see me with rescues.

-GSD


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Personaly,i will only rescue apbts,but ill pay for a good working dog of another breed seeing as how it is hard to find a great working dog in a rescue and that good dogs are were you find them,especialy good working dogs..


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

cane76 said:


> Personaly,i will only rescue apbts,but ill pay for a good working dog of another breed seeing as how it is hard to find a great working dog in a rescue and that good dogs are were you find them,especialy good working dogs..


I don't know if you knew this or not, but many working dogs professional businesses use are rescues.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

ABK said:


> I think all you pro-BYB ppl are missing the point. If I am correct, what GSD is saying is that if all you want is a pet, why not rescue?
> 
> Take a look at these dogs ...
> 
> ...


It seems to me me that you are all very opinated. Taking a rescue dog that most likly came from a BYB is in fact supporting BYB'S b/c you have taken a dog that was dumped. IMO Uncle TJ is not a BYB because he bred his dog 3 yrs ago and may not breed her this spring. 
I will use myself as an example... You want us to take in a rescue dog instead of a BYB. I agree but lets say I didn't buy Destiny from a person outside Walmart for 50$ instead they couldn't find a home for her so they left her outside the store after hrs. Someone picked her up took her to the shelter the next day a week later I went in looking for a good pet and adopted her for 150$. Are I not in some round about way supporting BYB's? I think so.
Yes my dogs are rescues would I buy from a breeder most likly not because I was raised to take in those that are not wanted do I look down on those that want a pure breed dog no why should I? They love their dogs as much as I love mine. Do I think we should jup on some one for breeding or buying a pup from a any breeder NO that is one less pup that will be tossed to the way side. I do whole heartedly believe that we should teach those to be responisable and to spay and neuter.


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

GSDBulldog said:


> Here is a good place to start, http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html
> 
> The only thing on that website I disagree with is the "Responsible breeders don't repeat breedings".
> 
> ...


Thank you!!!


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

ABK said:


> I don't know if you knew this or not, but many working dogs professional businesses use are rescues.


i dont doubt that,but my prefrence is something very specific and also quite rare unlike your average apbts the flood the pounds.Im all for rescuing dogs,all though rescuing ceartin breeds is much more of a crap shoot than others...


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

*"lets say I didn't buy Destiny from a person outside Walmart for 50$ instead they couldn't find a home for her so they left her outside the store after hrs. Someone picked her up took her to the shelter the next day a week later I went in looking for a good pet and adopted her for 150$. Are I not in some round about way supporting BYB's? I think so."*

I have to respectfully disagree. If BYBs they DO have to abandon their pups at Wal-Mart, after a few litters they are likely to stop breeding dogs & move on to a more lucrative business.

But at long as ppl keep buying from BYBs, BYBs will keep breeding, pups will keep getting dumped or keep making headlines, dogs will keep getting killed & BSL will keep getting passed.

Am I the only one getting this???


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

ABK said:


> *"lets say I didn't buy Destiny from a person outside Walmart for 50$ instead they couldn't find a home for her so they left her outside the store after hrs. Someone picked her up took her to the shelter the next day a week later I went in looking for a good pet and adopted her for 150$. Are I not in some round about way supporting BYB's? I think so."*
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree. If BYBs they DO have to abandon their pups at Wal-Mart, after a few litters they are likely to stop breeding dogs & move on to a more lucrative business.
> 
> ...


no its really quite simple...good posting..


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## OUTLAW (Nov 3, 2006)

I love this thread! It's like wrestlemania! I had my match earlier, yet the pay-per-view continues!


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I have to respectfully disagree. If BYBs they DO have to abandon their pups at Wal-Mart, after a few litters they are likely to stop breeding dogs & move on to a more lucrative business.

But at long as ppl keep buying from BYBs, BYBs will keep breeding, pups will keep getting dumped or keep making headlines, dogs will keep getting killed & BSL will keep getting passed.

Am I the only one getting this??? 
No I don't think you are getting it a BYB is going to sell some of the pups. In Destiny's litter there were 5 left out of 10 puppies. They had already sold 5 at 100.00 but they dropped the price to 50.00. When I got Destiny two others were being bought so they made another 150.00 so they could have dumped the last 2 I don't know if they did or if they found homes. BUt they made 650.00 off one litter of puppies I would say that was lucrative. It didn't cost them much a couple bags of cheap food. Why would they stop even if they had to dump 2 puppies out of each litter. If these BYB's have 2 dams each has one litter a year of 10 puppies and they sold for 100.00 each they sold 18 pups and dumped 4that means they are 1600.00 richer than they were before and 4 still ended up in a shelter the 4 rescues are still enabling the BYB to contintue breeding b/c they( the pups) are homed. 

What I'm trying to get across is that however noble you are a shelter dog most likely came from a BYB and by taking that rescue you are in fact supporting a BYB. 

My dogs came from shelters so I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. But so many here are saying that s.u.i.c.i.d.e. is wrong to want a puppy out of GI Jane and Boo-Boo and that is wrong they have a right to want a certain dog she has known this dog its whole life Uncle TJ sounds like a responible owner to me. Yes his dog has had pups but if they find good homes with family and friends I see nothing wrong with it.


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## Judy (Dec 12, 2005)

*Pit Bull Owners Alliance Code or Ethics*

I remembered that MaryEllen had posted a code of ethics here before, here are the posts:

Section I: Introduction & Mission Statement

Introduction: This Code of Ethics is being presented by the Pit Bull Owners Alliance (PBOA). The material presented herein is to serve as a guide for breeders and reference tool for potential buyers seeking out breeders. The goal in presenting this Code of Ethics is not to promote Pit Bull breeding, but rather to discourage indiscriminate breeding, poor breeding practices, and support of unethical breeders. PBOA supports and encourages rescue above and beyond breeding or purchasing Pit Bulls.

Mission Statement: The ethical breeder of American Pit Bull Terriers and/or American Staffordshire Terriers ("Pit Bulls") shall always hold paramount the future of the breed. A desire for betterment and preservation of the Pit Bull breed should be the sole driving force behind a breeder's choice to produce puppies.

1) The breed's future: because of a) anti-Pit Bull legislation, b) irresponsible ownership, c) criminal animal abuse, and d) a surplus of dogs, the future of the Pit Bull is in jeopardy. Prior to planning a litter, a breeder should ask himself/herself if the litter will jeopardize the future of the breed by contributing in any way to a, b, c, and/or d above.

2) Betterment of the breed: the goal of the ethical Pit Bull breeder should always be, first and foremost, to better the breed through the production of puppies that are as good as or superior to the previous generation. Production of Pit Bulls that ideally represent the United Kennel Club (UKC), American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA), and/or American Kennel Club (AKC) Standard(s) should be considered the pinnacle of a Pit Bull breeding program.

3) Preservation of the breed: ethical breeders should work to preserve, through legal and humane means, the Pit Bull breed as it was, is and should be. Means to achieve this goal include: protecting the integrity of the breed through adherence to the Standards; careful culling (via sterilization, and/or humane euthanasia when necessary) of sub-standard stock; meticulous record-keeping, DNA profiling, microchipping, and pedigree research; studying to achieve a scholarly knowledge of breed history, temperament, health, structure, and genetics.

Section II: Actions of the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder

Note 1: For simplicity's sake, "dog" will apply to both sexes. "Breeding stock" will apply to any dog or dogs that the Ethical Pit Bull breeder will breed, allow to be bred, or pay for the breeding services of.

Note 2: The pedigrees (previous generations) of all breeding stock should be considered as important as the breeding stock itself.

Note 3: Proper care, management and training are beyond the scope of this document. However an Ethical Pit Bull Breeder keeps their dogs well trained, in good health, in clean quarters, provides daily exercise and mental stimulation, and does not keep more dogs than can adequately be provided for.

The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder chooses breeding stock based on several criteria:

a) correctness of temperament (see #2 and Item 2) 
b) health and vitality of the individual dogs (see #3, Item 3, and Note 3) 
c) conformity to the applicable breed standard of the recognized Pit Bull registry (see # 5) 
d) qualities the individual dogs may offer to future generations 
e) qualities the pedigrees of the individual dogs may offer to future generations

The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder holds "A" and "B" above paramount above all other considerations when choosing breeding stock.

The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder:

1) has an extensive knowledge of Pit Bulls (their history, genetics, the Standards, care, training), as well as a strong understanding of breeding practices, canine health, and dog behavior/training

2) chooses breeding stock that is temperamentally sound and representative of the Standards. In addition, the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder does not breed any Pit Bull that is human-aggressive, fearful, exhibits behavior typically seen in breeds of the protection/guardian group, nor any Pit Bull that is not "temperament correct" (see item 3 below).

Item 2: The temperament correct Pit Bull: seeks out human interaction; is responsive, biddable and eager to please; may be genetically predisposed to aggression towards other dogs or animals; is appropriately submissive; is well balanced and optimistic; enjoys handling; presents good eye contact; is able to be calm in the presence of other dogs on leash or - if initially leash reactive - can learn how to tolerate their presence; is willing to connect with handler during high arousal; can be handled safely even in times of high arousal; accepts a reasonable amount of confinement; drops arousal levels quickly when removed from a stressful situation; is social with people of all types; is responsive and good natured; is never aggressive towards humans.

3) health tests all breeding stock prior to breeding, and certifies health of breeding stock prior to breeding where such certifications are available. Tests and certifications shall be conducted and processed prior to any dog being bred. Required health tests and certifications include: hips, elbows, thyroid, and heart (evaluated and certified by organizations such as Orthopedic Foundation for Animals [OFA] for hips, elbows, thyroid, and heart, or PennHip for hips). Dogs should test negative for Brucellosis and von Willebrand's Disease. Additional testing may be conducted for the following health abnormalties: Spinocerebellar/Hereditary Ataxia (specifically on American Staffordshire Terriers), and Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) with subsequent registration with Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) encouraged for dogs free of PRA. Results and certifications of any and all tests will be made readily available to potential buyers if tested and certified dogs will be bred. In addition, immediately prior to each breeding, all breeding stock should pass a basic veterinary health examination and be determined to be in good health.

Item 3: No dog with unsatisfactory health tests and/or certification results shall ever be bred. Unsatisfactory results would be (among others):

a) OFA hip ratings below fair 
b) OFA elbow ratings that indicated elbow dysplasia 
c) PennHip ratings that show abnormal joint laxity 
d) thyroids that do not test normal; thyroids that test TgAA positive 
e) hearts that are not found to be clear of murmurs or other abnormalities upon examination with a Doppler (ultrasound) exam by a Board Certified Cardiologist 
f) positive tests for Spincerebellar/Hereditary Ataxia 
g) positive tests for PRA 
h) positive tests for any other hereditary/congenital/genetic disease

Note 3) No dog that has ever been diagnosed with a hereditary/congenital skin disease (including demodectic mange) shall ever be bred. A dog with chronic health problems (such as skin allergies) and/or weaknesses, and/or immune weakness shall never be bred. A dog that has torn anterior cruxiate cigaments (ACL) shall never be bred unless the torn ligaments were damaged because of conceivable stress and/or injury which indicate normal environmental causes and not hereditary/congenital/genetic weakness.[/QUOTE]

5) chooses breeding stock that conforms to the Standard(s) of the applicable recognized Pit Bull registry.

6) registers breeding stock and produced litters with a recognized Pit Bull registry. 
Item 1: For the sake of this Code of Ethics, recognized Pit Bull registries will be considered the United Kennel Club and the American Dog Breeders Association (for American Pit Bull Terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers being registered as American Pit Bull Terriers), and the American Kennel Club (for American Staffordshire Terriers). These organizations are the oldest and hold breed standards that are most sought after and followed.

7) only breeds mature (over 2 years of age) dogs. Does not breed elderly bitches, nor does the Ethical Pit Bull breeder breed any one bitch more than once every 24 months.

8) seeks validation of quality of breeding stock through competition in organized dog sports and subsequent achievement of titles and certifications such as:

a) UKC, ADBA, and AKC conformation, obedience, agility, and performance titles 
b) certifications such as the AKC's Canine Good Citizen (CGC), American Temperament 
Test Society's Temperament Tested (TT), Therapy Dogs International's Therapy Dog International (TDI), and other similar, valid certifications. 
c) events, titles, and certifications offered by other valid organizations.

9) breeds less than 3 litters every year. Should ideally breed no more than 1 litter a year.

10) breeds when there is a specific demand for the puppies, and owners for puppies have been predetermined before birth.


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## Judy (Dec 12, 2005)

Section III: Puppies, Placement, and Care 

Note 5: Section III also applies to adolescent dogs and/or adult dogs any breeder may have in their care and potentially place. 

1) chooses homes based on ability to properly care for and handle a Pit Bull, and acts as match maker between puppy/dog and potential owner to ensure compatibility. 

Item 4: The quality of the home any puppy or dog is placed into should be of great importance. The Ethical Pit Bull Breeder only considers a potential owner that: 

a) has already done good breed research. Asks good questions. Shows willingness to learn more 
b) is realistic about breed challenges (dog-aggression, high energy levels, strong and pushy, breed specific legislation, rental and home owners insurance issues, bad reputation of breed, etc.) 
c) shows a stable, mature, open-minded personality 
d) is happy to be interviewed and receive a home inspection 
e) is physically capable of handling a strong dog 
f) wants an indoor pet as a companion animal/family member 
g) has had some dog experience and knowledge of basic training. 
h) has a reasonably active lifestyle and is prepared to satisfy dog's daily exercise needs 
i) owns a home or has a secure rental that will allow a Pit Bull (should provide proof in lease) 
j) can provide safe containment: tall, secure fences if yard is present and working latches on gates. 
k) lives in a household (includes roommates, children, seniors) that is involved in the decision to bring a Pit Bull into the family and is able to help manage a dog 
l) has other pets in the home that are a good match and understands that Pit Bull must be separated from other pets when not supervised 

12) socializes and conducts basic training with all puppies before sending them to their new homes. 

13) microchips all puppies prior to sending them to their new homes. 

14) does not place puppies under 8 weeks of age. 

15) does not place puppies in areas where breed specific legislation that would endanger the puppy’s life or quality of life exists. 

16) provides legally-binding, non-expiring contracts upon purchase that protect buyer as well as puppy. Contract certifies health (congenital, genetic, hereditary) and temperamental soundness of puppy. Assures puppy is disease-free prior to placement through records detailing proper veterinary and health care. Contract includes clause that requires new owner to relocate with the dog, or return the dog to the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder in the event that breed specific legislation that would endanger the puppy’s life or quality of life is enacted in the new owner’s city/state. 

17) takes responsibility for any puppy produced, during any point in the lifetime of that puppy, should the original home become unable to care for the puppy or grown adult dog. 

18) sends puppies home with papers from the recognized Pit Bull registry to allow the new owner to register the puppy in his/her name; unless the puppy is pet stock and is not spayed or neutered prior to going to new home, in which case, the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder will withhold papers until the new owner can provide proof of spay/neuter. It is strongly advised, however, that the Ethical Pit Bull Breeder spays/neuters all pet stock prior to placement in new homes. 

Item 5: “Pet stock” is any puppy that is not or would not potentially be bred by an Ethical Pit Bull Breeder, and/or any puppy that will not potentially be shown in conformation events. 

19) after sending puppy home, offers support indefinitely to new owner by way of breed counseling, training/behavior advice, health care information, referrals, etc. 

20) recognizes that breeding is not a money making venture, a business, nor a means to bring in extra money. Stud fees and sale prices of puppies should reflect the costs of ethical breeding. The ethical breeder does not see a profit at the end of the year, but may actually see a loss. 

(C) 2005 Mary Harwelik & Pit Bull Owners Alliance


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

MY MIKADO said:


> No I don't think you are getting it a BYB is going to sell some of the pups. In Destiny's litter there were 5 left out of 10 puppies. They had already sold 5 at 100.00 but they dropped the price to 50.00. When I got Destiny two others were being bought so they made another 150.00 so they could have dumped the last 2 I don't know if they did or if they found homes. BUt they made 650.00 off one litter of puppies I would say that was lucrative. It didn't cost them much a couple bags of cheap food. Why would they stop even if they had to dump 2 puppies out of each litter. If these BYB's have 2 dams each has one litter a year of 10 puppies and they sold for 100.00 each they sold 18 pups and dumped 4that means they are 1600.00 richer than they were before and 4 still ended up in a shelter the 4 rescues are still enabling the BYB to contintue breeding b/c they( the pups) are homed.
> 
> What I'm trying to get across is that however noble you are a shelter dog most likely came from a BYB and by taking that rescue you are in fact supporting a BYB.
> 
> My dogs came from shelters so I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. But so many here are saying that s.u.i.c.i.d.e. is wrong to want a puppy out of GI Jane and Boo-Boo and that is wrong they have a right to want a certain dog she has known this dog its whole life Uncle TJ sounds like a responible owner to me. Yes his dog has had pups but if they find good homes with family and friends I see nothing wrong with it.


*sigh* This is a pretty open & shut issue here. *IF PEOPLE WOULD STOP BUYING FROM BYBs, THEN THEY WOULD GO OUT OF BUSINESS. * I don't care if you bought your dog for $150 or $50 or one cent. The more you support them by buying their product (puppies) the more they will be encouraged to do it again. The more they do it, more shelters are filled up & more dogs are placed in irresponsible homes, where they are either abused or become headlines. As a result of that, more BSL is passed. Yeah, some BYB pups do find good homes, but I would say only about 10% do. The remaining 90% are in the hands of street rollers or are in the streets running hither & yon. 

I guess am more sensitive about this b/c my family HAS rescued starving BYB dogs that have been tossed out onto the street & we HAVE seen BYB dogs let loose to run wild b/c the owner didn't know any better or abused by cruel owners.

Some of you (I shan't name names) think BYB is all rainbows & sunshine & all the pups go to great homes, but that is not the case.

All I can say is try volunteering at your local shelter. Hold the dogs - dogs just as good if not better than your own - as they are PTS. Watch their wagging tail go slower, slower, stop. Then toss their lifeless body in the freezer, to be thrown in the back of a pick-up truck once a week w/ the rest of the dead BYB bred dogs to be tossed in the landfill like yesterday's garbage.

Or maybe you can look into their glassy eyes as you put them on the belt that crates their limp, dead bodies to the incinerator & watch their corpses fall off into the flames to be burned up like leftover newpapers.

Try doing that a while. Maybe then your ideas of how "harmless" BYBs are will change.


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## PitBu|| (Dec 31, 2006)

*byb*

Hey guys, i totally know what u guys mean, i know this guy who has a pitbull, and wants to breed it. I have voiced my strong oppinion to him not to breed simply because his female is not breeding material. She has a short temper, very small feet, hips problems as well as a load of other problems you should never have passed on. I think hes jus wants to breed because he "has" a female. In my mind this is very wrong. well all need to work together if we ever plan to make a difference.


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## Derek79 (Jul 15, 2006)

ABK said:


> *sigh* This is a pretty open & shut issue here. *IF PEOPLE WOULD STOP BUYING FROM BYBs, THEN THEY WOULD GO OUT OF BUSINESS. * I don't care if you bought your dog for $150 or $50 or one cent. The more you support them by buying their product (puppies) the more they will be encouraged to do it again. The more they do it, more shelters are filled up & more dogs are placed in irresponsible homes, where they are either abused or become headlines. As a result of that, more BSL is passed. Yeah, some BYB pups do find good homes, but I would say only about 10% do. The remaining 90% are in the hands of street rollers or are in the streets running hither & yon.
> 
> I guess am more sensitive about this b/c my family HAS rescued starving BYB dogs that have been tossed out onto the street & we HAVE seen BYB dogs let loose to run wild b/c the owner didn't know any better or abused by cruel owners.
> 
> ...


The best I have heard regarding this issue. Especially the last. I have had to put a few pets to sleep for health issues. Its rough. Heck I read that story at game dog, and couldnt help but tear up.

I dont think I could work at the shelter and put dogs down. It would really tear me up.

I didnt have the worst life, but it wasnt the best either. And the dogs I had always seemed like the only true friends I ever had. Many people dont agree with how I treat my dogs, my wife finds it hard sometimes, but they are my kids. I will let them sleep with me, lay next to me on the couch.

Man, just thinking about it brings a tear to my eyes. I will find it very hard when I go to the shelter to look at the pup, not to cry for the dogs that I wont take home.....

Heck thinking about it, the house I am getting is on .75 acres, maybe I can start my own rescue/foster.


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## Nation (Sep 27, 2006)

I almost agreed with GSD till I heard he/she say that the only people who should buy from a respectable breeder is a person who is going to enter there dogs into shows.

That comment In my humble opinion is a little bit ridiculous. I love the breed and hate to see these animals in shelters. But to get a dog from a shelter is throwing the dice. 

For one I didnt raise this dog, I dont know anything about this dogs background was its parents human aggressive for example. 

So will I ever enter my dog in weight pulling. NO. Will I enter him in shows. NO. Will he be hanging out in the house doing nothing but being part of the family. YES. 

Am I wrong for not going to the shelter instead. Hell no I sleep better at night knowing my pups background.

I can understand you being passionate for the breed and hating BYB's and wanting more people to rescue APBT's from shelters. But come on telling people they are wrong for getting a dog from a respectable breeder if they only plan on having it for a pet they are wrong. GIVE ME A BREAK.

I personally think if you wanted people to respect your opinion a bit more you would be a little more tactful on how you expressed it. comments such as "BYB is a BYB is a BYB" accomplish nothing.

S.U.I.C.I.D.E gonna be a great looking pup goodluck with it hope you enjoy.


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## Derek79 (Jul 15, 2006)

I very much agree on that point about GSDs comment.

Though I think still to each his own. I mean you have a valid point too though.

But to me, there are so many good testiments of rescued dogs, and more bad testiments of bad dogs that come from 'good' lines....

I think owner has more to do with it than anything, breeding only goes so far I think.


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## ABK (Dec 30, 2006)

Getting a shelter dog is NOT a "throw of the dice." These dogs are thoroughly screened for things such as animal aggression, human aggression, etc. But if you don't want to go the adult route they also have pups there as well that you CAN raise yourself.

On the flip side of that coin there are TONS of ppl who bought from BYBs who got poor quality animals. Heck, I myself got one from a breeder who was as nutty as a fruitcake. Both of her parents were stable animals & we raised her from a pup & she still ended up being as man-biter we had to plant. 

Are you wrong for not going to a shelter? Well, I guess it's all in who you ask. 

If you ask someone else who has a BYB bred dog, no, you're probably not wrong. They're not going to admit that & certainly aren't going to agree that it is wrong.

But ask the shelter or rescue worker who has to euth dogs day after day after day. They'll tell you, that yes, you are wrong. It might not "accomplish" anything for me (or anyone else here) to tell you the truth, but go down to your local kill shelter & see the response you get.

IMO if you are not going to compete w/ your dog, the best thing to do is rescue. But as one poster said previously, to each his own ...


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> Here is a good place to start, http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html
> 
> The only thing on that website I disagree with is the "Responsible breeders don't repeat breedings".
> 
> ...


I have never had one problem with any of my dogs...... Pups, I should say, Like health wise and so on... And my female was bred twice, Thats it I didnt repeat breed.. I think if there was no ban here, Pantera would be breed in 1 year, She is 1 now... I would breed her to a male with ADBA papers and get the pups their papers...
Im sorry but you basically are calling me a BYB.. That is the vibe i am getting.... I know alot about breeding a tests and what to look for in a male, and there is nothing wrong with my female, (the female that i bred is now fixed and living in toronto with a friend, Me and hubby were having problems and i thought to better us, the dog should go live in a great home, and she is... So its not the same female...) But there are no probsin the lines, Mom was ok, She died choaking on a bone... Audtopsy done(sp) Dad is still alive and in great conditon.. I talk to the breeders all the time, They are on my MSN.... They said that if the ban gets over turned, they are picking out a male for me...(cross your fingers guys) 
Im not stupid... I know alot about this breed.. I do things right, not to make a buck, cuz you dont make a buck, Unless the dogs are poorly taken care of, And my pups are in great conditon.... There is 3 outta the 22 that i had, i have more pics of others, But i cant find em....


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> I have never had one problem with any of my dogs...... Pups, I should say, Like health wise and so on... And my female was bred twice, Thats it I didnt repeat breed.. I think if there was no ban here, Pantera would be breed in 1 year, She is 1 now... I would breed her to a male with ADBA papers and get the pups their papers...
> Im sorry but you basically are calling me a BYB.. That is the vibe i am getting.... I know alot about breeding a tests and what to look for in a male, and there is nothing wrong with my female, (the female that i bred is now fixed and living in toronto with a friend, Me and hubby were having problems and i thought to better us, the dog should go live in a great home, and she is... So its not the same female...) But there are no probsin the lines, Mom was ok, She died choaking on a bone... Audtopsy done(sp) Dad is still alive and in great conditon.. I talk to the breeders all the time, They are on my MSN.... They said that if the ban gets over turned, they are picking out a male for me...(cross your fingers guys)
> Im not stupid... I know alot about this breed.. I do things right, not to make a buck, cuz you dont make a buck, Unless the dogs are poorly taken care of, And my pups are in great conditon.... There is 3 outta the 22 that i had, i have more pics of others, But i cant find em....


Alright, I hear ya. No one wants to admit they are a BYB. But breeding healthy, good looking dogs is only a part of it.* A responsible breeder takes advantage of every possible test, title, and certification*.

And to clear up my view on purchasing dogs... I never said your "wrong" for purchasing pets, but I said that I do not understand it. Specifically when dogs in (Good) rescues are thoroughly screened, temperament tested, and sometimes even trained before being adopted out.

Not to mention that most who fall under the "responsible" category will not sell you a dog if it will only be a couch decoration. Most have contracts that the dog will be worked and/or shown while in your care.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't know where you live ABK but the two shelters around me plus the rescue DO NOT test any animal for any type of aggression. So yes it is a toss of the die. I have worked with rescue animals for 26yrs so I DO KNOW what I'm talking about. IMO shelters dogs and BYB dogs are one in the same if you don't see that well......

I do think that if you are not showing your dog that it should be spayed or neutered. There are way too many dogs out there but to each their own and there is nothing one person can do to change the thinking of another but plant the seed and see if it grows.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

MY MIKADO said:


> I don't know where you live ABK but the two shelters around me plus the rescue DO NOT test any animal for any type of aggression. So yes it is a toss of the die. I have worked with rescue animals for 26yrs so I DO KNOW what I'm talking about. IMO shelters dogs and BYB dogs are one in the same if you don't see that well......
> 
> I do think that if you are not showing your dog that it should be spayed or neutered. There are way too many dogs out there but to each their own and there is nothing one person can do to change the thinking of another but plant the seed and see if it grows.


there not the same,and any shealter that dosent temperment test is not a profesionaly ran place.Dogs that are deemed unsuitable for homes are put in a quarintine area for euthinasia[sp].also all dogs that come in are fixed before they go out,and the place im decribing is the dog pound in yolo county,lol...not the place of the highest esteem for any animal rescue and still those are there practices,and that place is caulk full of apbts/mixs and alot of other dogs. if they dont do that in your area then theres a problem...
Another thing to think of as we beat the hell out of this topic is this,a byb is a inexperianced and unprofessional person,do you make it a habit to aquire other things in your life from the novice or the skillless?then why aquire a pet that will live the rest of its life with you from a half ass?
just a few things to think about...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

so you mean to tell me a 120 pound presa canario could go in there with temperment issues and still be adopted out,imagine the legal ramifications that would be attached to that in the case of a accident...


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Part the problm is that we (northern MInnesota) doesn't have the pitbulls that you have in southern areas. Yes we did have a presa in the shelter here a but 3 yrs ago it took about a year but a home was found. All the dogs in the shelters here came from BYB's so it my area it is one and the same. No they do not test the dogs as all the rescues in the area are no kill. So it doesn't matter how long they are there they will get a home. I take my car to a backyard mechanic I have never had a problem with him fixing my car. I ask guys in the feed store about fencing and feeding livestock so yes I guess I do use novice people to help me out. I have even asked all of you for advice on my dogs and I don't know if any of you are exepters either.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

MY MIKADO said:


> Part the problm is that we (northern MInnesota) doesn't have the pitbulls that you have in southern areas. Yes we did have a presa in the shelter here a but 3 yrs ago it took about a year but a home was found. All the dogs in the shelters here came from BYB's so it my area it is one and the same. No they do not test the dogs as all the rescues in the area are no kill. So it doesn't matter how long they are there they will get a home. I take my car to a backyard mechanic I have never had a problem with him fixing my car. I ask guys in the feed store about fencing and feeding livestock so yes I guess I do use novice people to help me out. I have even asked all of you for advice on my dogs and I don't know if any of you are exepters either.


Im actually from california a place were you have every type of bully breed under the sun,some good,some bad,also i want to say,im not gonna act as if all presas are dangerous,far from it,but they all should be temperment tested in a pound or shealter.so do you guys put down dogs when the owner gives them up because theyve mauled somebody or do you adopt them out also...


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Actually Cane I cannot think of any maulings that ever made headlines here. We did have a pack of dogs that attacked a woman walking on a trail. Two were shot but the others are still with their owners. I guess that maybe we live a different lifestyle. I have had to put down dogs b/c they didn't do well on the farm or with other animals so I didn't place them but in general most dogs are placed in homes. Out of the hundered or so dogs that my Mama took in we only put down 3 of them 1 was sick (cancer) 1 was so mean she would attack anything and everything and Shabaz well he was a hudni plus he couldn't be housebroken.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

i actually think that temp tests are alot less common than i believed after asking around and checking diffrent forums and thats sad,and yes we are probably from two diffrent worlds,ive actually had a dog maul somebody:snow: and been on the recieving end of a mauling,and both dogs were put down although one was by my choice.Lets just be open minded when concerning the byb thing,theres a major over population problem,thats all.I see alot of folks got the boot for pushing there issues with bybs and maybe closed some peoples minds completly,that is also sad...


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes that is sad. Too many deaths of this wonderful breed is a very sad thing. I'm sorry that you had two horrible encounters.


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