# No more Dog park for me



## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

Wow, some dog owners should be shot. 


I took my crew to the dog park today. I wanted to socialize chino a bit. So i took him in on leash just to see how he reacts and what not. He was doing fine after 15-20 mins or so. I let him off leash and he goes off playing with a german sheppard. After about 30 mins or so, a italian guy that hardly speaks ANY english comes in with a Rhodeasian(sp?) ridgeback. Instantly he starts a fight with the german sheppard. So seeing this, i grab my golden and Chino and go off into a fenced in section of the dog park. Other owners see this and follow me in. Well the italian guy brings his dog into this secluded section, and he jumps right on my Golden. I drag his dog off of mine and i tell him he needs to put a leash on that dog, or get him out of the dog park. He says sorry and puts him on the leash. At that point i was kind of heated and i just wanted to get out of there. Before i could call my dogs to me, the dog jumps on chino. 

They fight for about 30 seconds before chino grabs a hold of his left upper leg and refuses to let go. So i rush over and grab chinos head and i hold it to stop his jerking and shaking. NO ONE including the owner would help me break up this fight. I had no idea what to do, except to hold chino's head to prevent any damage to this guys dog. So after about 5 mins, and me spraying a bit of water into chino's nose he lets go. 

As soon as chino lets go, this ridgeback makes a v-line towards chino again, I give it a swift kick and he changes course.


After all of this happens, i round my gang up and put them in the car. I go and have a talk with the owner, and look over his dog to make sure there are no serious injurys. I ask the owner if he would like to call the cops and let them know what happened. I explained to him that he cannot bring a aggressive dog to the dog park because of situations like that. Even though my dog was NOT in the wrong, he would have been blamed if the guys dog would have died or seriously hurt. I thank god that chino is a young boy. If he was a full grown mature pit then i dont know what the outcome would have been.

I will no longer go to the dog park with either of my dogs, unless its with my friends and my friends only. Stupid owners always ruin it for the people that have good natured dogs.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

Unfortunate situation...but our breed should not go to a dog park period. Despite who started the fight, an APBT will get blamed first.

DONT TAKE YOUR DOG TO THE DOG PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

mygirlmaile said:


> Unfortunate situation...but our breed should not go to a dog park period. Despite who started the fight, an APBT will get blamed first.
> 
> DONT TAKE YOUR DOG TO THE DOG PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


dont worry, neither chino, or dank will be back at a dog park


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Crapola, this is a hard lesson learned. I'm glad it all ended okay.


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

echs332000 said:


> dont worry, neither chino, or dank will be back at a dog park


Good to hear. Im glad everything worked out well for you and that your boys are okay.


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## Isis (Jan 2, 2010)

This post is just on the topic in a general sense.

I personally think that the dog park needs to be a situation that people need to take more seriously, cautiously and responsibly regardless of the breed of dogs involved. No matter where you are with your dog, it is essential to be analyzing the environment you are exposed to. Reading the animals state as well as the humans, to see the possibilities that could arise. If anything you should pay more attention to the humans to gauge their overall idea on how dogs are to be dealt with and handled. That way you can guess what their reactions will be like. Once you establish this, as well as the nature of the situation you can better prepare yourself personally and take as much control of the situation in your power. I personally never trust other people to help me or even understand how to properly handle an animal. The truth is, most don't. I think taking personal responsibility is the best tool you can equip yourself with, along with mentally preparing yourself for any situation _before_ it happens, just in general.

While I can understand avoiding putting an APBT in a situation where they will get blamed for any negative outcomes, I also think that APBTs are completely welcome at dog parks. However! Its very important to take into consideration your dogs temperament, its age, how it is around other dogs, and to be confident in your own abilities to maintain control of the situation. If there are too many high energy dogs in the park one day, don't go. If an owner is being irresponsible communicate it to them, if they are non compliant or continue to neglect responsibility, leave immediately. And always be analyzing your dog as well as other dogs to see warning signs. Be prepared to step in and leash your dog. Always leave if the situation is turning into a less than ideal environment for the well being of your dog.

I think _all_ dog owners should take the things mentioned above into consideration, wherever you are. Socialization is important, and bad situations can arise _anywhere_. The only way to truly better the situation and better your dog is to be prepared. I myself continuously try to think of things that may arise in which i can better lead my dogs. Whether it is in training or on a morning walk, I visualize issues I may run into and how I would like to react not only to make it easier for myself but to better the development of my dog.

I truly wish more people didn't shrug off handling of their animals, the lack of responbility and ignorance I see on a daily basis p's me off. I truly feel for the OP, I'm sorry your dog had to be exposed to that.


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## Pacifico23 (Jan 3, 2010)

Ya I don't take my older dog there anymore. When I used to this guy had a narly German shepeard. Kept on leash most of the time and towards the end would let him off. That stupid dog attacked my dog twice. I'm just glad my pit is really submissive and just ran away. Of course I told him is dog shouldn't be there but it happened twice. I take my 5 month old to the dogfor socializing right now. But once she hits a year old I won't be taking her there anymore


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

I myself do not even take my Presa's, Staffie bull or Mal to dog parks. I am just in like you in the FACT that I would get blamed first and ask questions after they put my dog down. 

I truly believe they should run dog parks like they do public pools. Hire folks that know about dogs and have the equipment to be able to handle situations. I also believe that the dogs that come into the park should have to be evaluated. Also to state they should have to be Spayed / Neutered. 
I believe this to be for ALL Breeds of dogs. 

But in the real world I would never get this ....


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Glad everything is okay and you and your dogs are all safe.


I really think dogs parks need to be done away with. A dog park is just a place for people to socialize. it is not a structured area for the dogs. i also don't know why the majority of poeple think that all dogs will get along it is far from the truth.


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## Aidan (Nov 3, 2009)

Isis said:


> This post is just on the topic in a general sense.
> 
> I personally think that the dog park needs to be a situation that people need to take more seriously, cautiously and responsibly regardless of the breed of dogs involved. No matter where you are with your dog, it is essential to be analyzing the environment you are exposed to. Reading the animals state as well as the humans, to see the possibilities that could arise. If anything you should pay more attention to the humans to gauge their overall idea on how dogs are to be dealt with and handled. That way you can guess what their reactions will be like. Once you establish this, as well as the nature of the situation you can better prepare yourself personally and take as much control of the situation in your power. I personally never trust other people to help me or even understand how to properly handle an animal. The truth is, most don't. I think taking personal responsibility is the best tool you can equip yourself with, along with mentally preparing yourself for any situation _before_ it happens, just in general.
> 
> ...


I fully agree with this, yet I don't agree with an APBT being in a dog park ever. If its a pup it shouldn't be there because it can get hurt by bigger dogs unexpectedly, if its matured you never know when it may arise to the challenge and get itself into trouble. Our breed doesn't need to show DA to get into a fight. They are not likely to turn down a challenge and in the dog world that can be as simple as a stare. In the end no matter what happens our breed will finish the fight, get the blame, and have a good chance at being in the media. It's just not worth going to the dog park.

Even if I didn't own APBTs I wouldn't go there. You never know if dogs are up to date on shots, carrying diseases, temperments, there are just to many unknowns at dog parks, why subject yours to a situation where anything could happen.

There are better ways to socialize and have a good time out there with your dog, skip the park.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

mygirlmaile said:


> Unfortunate situation...but our breed should not go to a dog park period. Despite who started the fight, an APBT will get blamed first.
> 
> DONT TAKE YOUR DOG TO THE DOG PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

there would be no way I'd risk going to a park, for the situation you had and for the simple fact that when it comes to pit's people are afraid of them and as mygirlmaile stated above "an APBT owner would be blamed first."

I'm glad your dogs are alright tho.


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## Mom_of_Kambo (Nov 11, 2009)

Unfortunatly that's the way it always goes...ANYTIME ANYWHERE... we just avoid dog parks all together and socialize other ways.


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## Isis (Jan 2, 2010)

Aidan said:


> I fully agree with this, yet I don't agree with an APBT being in a dog park ever. If its a pup it shouldn't be there because it can get hurt by bigger dogs unexpectedly, if its matured you never know when it may arise to the challenge and get itself into trouble. Our breed doesn't need to show DA to get into a fight. They are not likely to turn down a challenge and in the dog world that can be as simple as a stare. In the end no matter what happens our breed will finish the fight, get the blame, and have a good chance at being in the media. It's just not worth going to the dog park.
> 
> Even if I didn't own APBTs I wouldn't go there. You never know if dogs are up to date on shots, carrying diseases, temperments, there are just to many unknowns at dog parks, why subject yours to a situation where anything could happen.
> 
> There are better ways to socialize and have a good time out there with your dog, skip the park.


For your average dog owner that hasn't put a lot of effort into understanding their dog and the behavior of dogs in general, avoiding the Dog Park for their APBT is the best idea. There are better, more controlled ways of socializing for sure.

The key of it all, which I attempted to emphasize in my OP is _control_. Bringing a puppy to a park with large dominant breeds wouldn't be assessing the situation rationally or correctly. Not only could the dog get hurt, but it could also be overwhelmed and learn to be fearful around other dogs. We all know what the leading cause of bites amoung all dogs is; fear. Not a good learning experience for the puppy. There is a strong likelihood that an APBT will reciprocate any challenge it receives, but there are ways around this with _any_ dominant breed. Conditioning the dog's reaction to aggressive dogs, and learning the skill of identifying _other_ dogs who could potentially instigate something and avoiding them entirely. Does every dog owner have these skills or wish to even obtain these skills? No, so in many cases it is appropriate to avoid situations where conflicts could arise. Keep in mind, such owners would not have _control_, imho.

The appealing aspect of the dog park is that for individuals who wish to condition their animals to be able handle a variety of circumstances and temperaments of dog, it is a good opportunity. I personally wouldn't even suggest letting the dog (of any breed) offleash unless all the dogs knew each other, even then I would be weary. Ideally the park would be utilized more as a tool for learning good manners (with guidance) than it would be about unstructured chaotic play. This is where I strongly agree with other posters in this forum, an organized Dog Park would be a far better situation than what most are currently.

To say that a certain dog isn't appropriate for a certain environment is further stigmatizing the breed rather than taking steps to change it. I find myself following the desire to better new generations of any species while dissolving discriminatory misconceptions and generalizations. I fully embody my ability to initiate change and I will do what is in my power to make a step in the right direction.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

This should be a sticky and the op should spread this story around whenever possible.


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## Chinadog (Sep 14, 2009)

*sigh*

well at least the guy acted okay after your pit bull tore into his dog.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

*Sighs* Unfortunately the worst has to happen before people realize that taking a pitbull to a dog park is a bad idea..


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Rhodes are BA dogs... The original lion hound... you can bet somewhere in its creation an american game dog went into it, they have loved our dogs in africa since the late 1800s. They are naturally alert and can be quite the menace.. LOL YOU ARE VERY LUCKY... Start your own dog park, w/ your APBT buddys.. All my friends bring their dogs out to run w/ the pack on the 10acres in N.Idaho, because of those situations and its always the APBTs fault,, PEOPLE ARE STUPID. We get pics all the time saved on our phones to show people talkn smack on APBTs. Nothing like 6 dogs or so all chasing the same ball or hanging from the same hang toy.. OF course I have to keep them in check from getting to rough but, its more comfortable for the dogs and the owners. Hooch got much love at the park w/ his muzzle on I was afraid everyone would be afraid of him but many parents asked if their kids could pet Hooch, knowing the muzzle wasnt for HA, LOL. A Dogue owner kept walking his dog closer and closer and when it growled My Heart sunk, I was prepared for the worse, and all those parents stood up and hammered on ol' dude until he left the park area.. I never felt so proud of the public, knowing the histeria on APBTs. But none the less I dont do dog parks anymore either not for almost 10yrs.


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

Isis said:


> To say that a certain dog isn't appropriate for a certain environment is further stigmatizing the breed rather than taking steps to change it. I find myself following the desire to better new generations of any species while dissolving discriminatory misconceptions and generalizations. I fully embody my ability to initiate change and I will do what is in my power to make a step in the right direction.


I have to disagree ... to know that our dogs are not appropriate for those environments are not adding to the stigma but accepting responsibility and avoiding situations that will further damage the image of our breed.
I won't go as far as to say they shouldn't be in the park itself what I want to say is they should not be let loose in a gang of dogs that are running around excitedly.You want to go to the dog park make the time to get up early and go before anyone else gets there thats what I do once they mature. I live in the city so theres no place for my boy to stretch his legs besides our walks. I train him, play fetch and other in the enclosed area. During the hours I know their are no other people and even if they do come they have the entire other section.

There are far more productive ways to initiate change then putting them in these situations. The OP lucked out in this situation , others are not or may not be so lucky ...... Some people insist on this sort of socializing because they want to prove their dog is or will be a role model for the breed ... Not saying the OP did this but I have been to parks and heard other owners say things of this nature when they ask me why I have my boy closed off and I explain to them that I would not put my boy in a situation that would harm him or someone else's dog , what their doing is not the best idea.

Socialize your pup in classes, with other friends dogs, your family, children.
JMO


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Good for you for stepping out & trying to let your dog live a normal dog life. Despite what others say, there's no reason to profile a dog - that guy was clearly an idiot... Yeah you can learn some sitting behind a screen believing others POV - but you don't know the bias behind opinions & you don't really get anywhere sheltering your dog. Dog fighting is what gives apbt's a bad rap & other stupid owners not leashing their dogs - not dog parks itself. It's unfortunate for you & your dog some idiot had to go & ruin a good time for others.


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## Bobby_hill (Nov 14, 2009)

I think a big problem with dog parks are the idiots...wait the only problem with dog parks are idiots.

although I get irritated by many people, the goofiest are the ones who watch the dog whisperer then decide to get a nice strong dog they can't control gets me. I see a lot of ceaser imitating that doesn't work, I actually saw a woman with an embroidered had that read "PACK LEADER" her dog was a humper by the way.

i say dogs parks are OK when you know your dog park, i go to one at 5 in the morning and occasionally meet up with people *I* know are responsible pet owners, just so my dog can get a little socialization and exercise with other dogs.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

The APBT does not need to be changed (for those of you who believe that they do). If the dog is not for you, the dog is not for you. Get a different dog and mind your own where pit bull dogs are concerned. "Normal life" for a dog bred to enjoy the fight would be...fighting.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I am glad to hear that you won't be going to dog parks anymore, and that no serious damage was done. Please use your experience to educate others on dog parks.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:clap:


buzhunter said:


> The APBT does not need to be changed (for those of you who believe that they do). If the dog is not for you, the dog is not for you. Get a different dog and mind your own where pit bull dogs are concerned. "Normal life" for a dog bred to enjoy the fight would be...fighting.


:goodpost:


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

Lex's Guardian said:


> Good for you for stepping out & trying to let your dog live a normal dog life. Despite what others say, there's no reason to profile a dog - that guy was clearly an idiot... Yeah you can learn some sitting behind a screen believing others POV - but you don't know the bias behind opinions & you don't really get anywhere sheltering your dog. Dog fighting is what gives apbt's a bad rap & other stupid owners not leashing their dogs - not dog parks itself. It's unfortunate for you & your dog some idiot had to go & ruin a good time for others.


Its not about sheltering your dog ... its about knowing the breed and its background. Knowing and accepting the responsibilities that are attached to owning them. I know many a dog that can out smart their owners in body language once they have it set in their mind. Our dogs may not start the problem but they will finish it. Thinking its a form of sheltering is pretty amusing and risky IMO ... thinking that an APBT needs to be with other dogs to be happy is ridiculous ...
I'd like to understand whats the bias behind the screen, when the majority of people giving their opinion have experienced this same situation or have been dealing with these dogs for years ?


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## mygirlmaile (Mar 26, 2009)

DueceAddicTed said:


> Its not about sheltering your dog ... its about knowing the breed and its background. Knowing and accepting the responsibilities that are attached to owning them. I know many a dog that can out smart their owners in body language once they have it set in their mind. Our dogs may not start the problem but they will finish it. Thinking its a form of sheltering is pretty amusing and risky IMO ... thinking that an APBT needs to be with other dogs to be happy is ridiculous ...
> I'd like to understand whats the bias behind the screen, when the majority of people giving their opinion have experienced this same situation or have been dealing with these dogs for years ?


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## Chaos4ever (Oct 2, 2009)

Glad Chino is ok


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## Harley D (Mar 27, 2009)

Well, hun pits are animal agressive from my understanding. If that dog started it or not it would have all be on you. Just how the world sees it. Their dog could have so started it but because your dogs a pit they will blame the pit. 
If someone sees it in a paper it wouldnt read
Ridgeback attacks dogs in dog park
no the line would read
Pit bull and Ridgeback fight in dog park. 
In that line most people read it and see the fact the pits started it....stupid people...but hey stupid is as stupid does.

Dog parks are mostly caged which means you have to pay to get in...now I dont know about you but I would have taken the guy to the owner of the land, and spoke to him. I would have made the guy pay for any vet bills that may have come to your dogs. 
If a dog continues to fight with other dogs and the owner will not handle his dog, the dog should be put down right away. The owner is not fit to handle the dog. You should have called animal control. Taken the guys linces plate, and spoke with the other members that had their dogs attacked and the ones that saw it. In doing so the dog would be taken away and put down, or placed with someone able to handle the dog better. 
I know how it feels to get heated and for get about somethings, but there was alot of things you could have done that could put a stop to that dog attacking other dogs...well, at least in the dog park.


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## Akasha (Oct 30, 2009)

I do agree that Pitbulls should not go to a dog park, and that dog parks are NOT simulating for dogs.......

However the only dog park I feel comfortable taking our puppy is the park she goes to for training. That's right our professional trainer does his sessions at a dog park, but it closed off to the public during these sessions. So if you honestly want to take your dog in for some socializing at a dog park, I would recommend finding a professional trainer who has rights to a dog park for training purposes !

Sometimes before classes start we take Akasha there early and we always put her on a leash when someone new comes in with their dog. Just to make sure their dog is responsive, and how well the dog is with the other dogs around. It's very risky that we do this, however being as though the park gets locked during training hours, is the only reason we ever set foot in a dog park.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

just say no


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## Isis (Jan 2, 2010)

Change.

A concept that many individuals are weary of, and some welcome with open arms.

Change is the essential part of the evolutionary process, without change there is no growth nor decay. Things absent of change become fixed, unmovable and uncompromising. Living, breathing, acting: Life is change.

Dog enthusiasts continuously try to change and improve the species, regardless of the breed. Breeders are infamous for attempting to "change" or improve upon their stock through selective breeding of DNA and temperament. Animal behavoralists / Ethologists are also infamous for attempting to learn and redirect animal behavior, in essence to change the animals natural reactions. All endeavors are not simply accepting existing traits, they also attempt to surpass former generations.

American Pit Bull Terriers do not _need_ to change. I hope posters here do not think that I was someone insisting that with my posts, because no where had I said that. I think everyone on this site can agree that American Pit Bull Terriers today are amazing! It's not so much about imposing unnatural traits on the dog as it is working with the dog. Because in reality if humans had not had the deisre to influence dogs, they would not be our pets. If we always left animals as they are (absent of change), it would mean we may not even have the APBT in existence! Don't forget that APBTs have _already_ undergone a signifigant amount of change in their lifespans. Not only bloodline related but work/task and behavior traits as well. I certainly pray other owners here arent using their dogs for what many individuals believe their purpose is...fighting.



DueceAddicTed said:


> I have to disagree ... to know that our dogs are not appropriate for those environments are not adding to the stigma but accepting responsibility and avoiding situations that will further damage the image of our breed.
> I won't go as far as to say they shouldn't be in the park itself what I want to say is they should not be let loose in a gang of dogs that are running around excitedly.You want to go to the dog park make the time to get up early and go before anyone else gets there that's what I do. I live in the city so there's no place for my boy to stretch his legs besides our walks. I train him, play fetch and other in the enclosed area. During the hours I know their are no other people and even if they do come they have the entire other section.
> 
> There are far more productive ways to initiate change then putting them in these situations. The OP lucked out in this situation , others are not or may not be so lucky ...... Some people insist on this sort of socializing because they want to prove their dog is or will be a role model for the breed ... Not saying the OP did this but I have been to parks and heard other owners say things of this nature when they ask me why I have my boy closed off and I explain to them that I would not put my boy in a situation that would harm him or someone else's dog , what their doing is not the best idea.
> ...


See I completely understand what you're getting at but maybe I communicated myself unclearly. I agree, to know your dog and what its capabilities are is very responsible. To me, using the word "inappropriate" is exiling/chastising the thing you're attributing it to. So, to say "Dog Parks are inappropriate APBTs" is (imo) to exclude the breed entirely, free of exception. I cannot agree with that. While I can understand _avoiding_ dog parks or _refraining_ from dog parks, there are always exceptions. It's like someone advocating Pit Bull BSL, (ie: dogsbite.org) saying "Pit Bulls are inappropriate because they are DA which can turn into HA". This is a stigma, and while for some it is true, it is not the absolute truth.

In the earlier part of that post I was pretty specific in saying which conditions I would advocate taking an APBT to the Dog Park. Many of the things you mentioned (ie: not letting it loose around excited dogs) are what I also mentioned. And while there are better ways to socialize any dog, for some people the dog park is much more than socializing. My desire for _all_ of my dogs, even my little Papillion is not to just have them socialized...It is for them to know and be exposed to many types of dogs, dog temperaments and situations, and to have them learn how to handle those situations appropriately. I don't ever want my dogs to experience a really strange circumstance and not know what to do. They could potentially do something detrimental (any of my breeds). I want to equip my dogs with confidence, to be able to handle any scenario they may be thrown into. This is a must because I like to take my dogs everywhere with me, and they are exposed to a lot of things. They need to be confident, or they will be fearful or aggressive.

Conditioning. The exposure of less than ideal situations gives the dog associations to relate future experiences to. For example, if I only let my dog meet well tempered dogs of friends...what will it do on the morning walk when it's greeted by an offleash high energy dog? Without exposing my dog to high energy temperaments she will not properly know how to react, and I would basically be leaving the outcome of the situation to fate. I would in no way be helping my dog by refusing to be exposed to erratic dogs. This is where responsible ownership and control is vital. The owner needs to know how to identify possible negative circumstances as well as being knowledgeable of handling their own dog. Many bad situations can be avoided completely by taking the proper precautions. How many owners carry break sticks with them? I can bet not as many as who should. Anticipate, anticipate, anticipate. Accepting a behavior without proper preparation really does nothing for you or the dog. Expectations are what hold people (and animals!) back.


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## NMWAPBT (Jan 9, 2010)

good you should never take apbts to a park they're just to darn good at holding there own so regardless if they start or not they will finish as chino proved to you


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## NMWAPBT (Jan 9, 2010)

also get a breakstick learn to use it save you a ton of trouble


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## SARGEnNIKITA (Jan 3, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear that yet again a pit was involved in something he didn't start because of someone elses irresponsibility...

I do take Sarge and Nikita will go too after all shots are done... BUT he stays in a fenced area and we only go in if there is no one in there... The only time we go in with another dog is if it's one of the four he's known since he was a pup and started going... Nikita will be treated the same way... I break up fence running when it gets to hyper too... 

Taking them (APBT) is good socialization but still in a controlled area with only one or two others THAT YOU KNOW... 

Even though Sarge is extremely passive I would never count on him not finishing a fight if another pushed him that far... And it doesn't help that he is well over breed standard in weight and height... He's 90 lbs but proportioned (not bullyish)... People usually don't want their dogs around him anyway lol he's "intimidating". Uh huh as he runs from my shih tzu while I type this lol


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> The APBT does not need to be changed (for those of you who believe that they do). If the dog is not for you, the dog is not for you. Get a different dog and mind your own where pit bull dogs are concerned. "Normal life" for a dog bred to enjoy the fight would be...fighting.


*VERY*:goodpost:


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## Harley D (Mar 27, 2009)

The one thing about most dog parks that has the fencing is that say you have to have your dog off leash. At least the one we went to. Then to add the fact even if your pits dont start the fighting it will still be labeled as your dog as the dangerous dog. Not the other persons dog no matter the breed. 

People in the world do not see and we can never change everyone. The one thing about a pit is they may not start it but for sure as heck they will end it there and then. 

I was given wise words one day from a dog owner. 

"That no matter how much you say you know your dog, you will never fully know them. That they are just like humans. Raise a child you still will never know how they will turn out. "

Mothers and Fathers raise their kids by the word of god, and they always seem to say my child will NEVER...
But they are wrong. A child can, point is they can, they will if they want. 
The same goes for dogs. No matter the training a dog has a mind of its own. It chooses to follow you, you dont make it. People say oh my dog wont bite my dog wont bite... It may never happen to you but others it happens to. A dog can turn...its just the matter of if it is willing to. I dont trust dog parks because dogs must be off leash. Giving the dog the will to turn and you standing there un able to stop it because the only way to break it up is you stick your hand in there and getting bit.
scientists have proven that dogs are thinking.Maybe not the same as we are but they think things out. They are not stupid, they learn. Like a sheep dog. The dog has no way of knowing which way the sheep is going to go...it has to think of more then one way to get the sheep back to the other sheep


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Isis said:


> To say that a certain dog isn't appropriate for a certain environment is further stigmatizing the breed rather than taking steps to change it. I find myself following the desire to better new generations of any species while dissolving discriminatory misconceptions and generalizations. I fully embody my ability to initiate change and I will do what is in my power to make a step in the right direction.


What you are proposing has already been accomplished in the AST (that was the point of the breed) When Mother Nature is in charge of the evolution the goal is quite different than when man is in control. Gamebred dogs are more popular and widespread now than ever before. To think that there is no place for a dog like that in todays world only shows ignorance of the breed. Can they be improved? Sure, breeders (honorable breeders) do not duplicate past generations without attempting to improve the dog by building on the fundamentals which separate this dog from all others. Lots of people believe that the dog should be bred differently today so that they can have dog park dogs. Those dogs would be ASTs, pet bulls, American bullies, and whatever else they have now. See, there comes a point where a dog can be changed so much that it's no longer the same dog, that's the logic behind standards. (to restrict change). The dog is what it is. Always has been and always will be.


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> What you are proposing has already been accomplished in the AST (that was the point of the breed) When Mother Nature is in charge of the evolution the goal is quite different than when man is in control. Gamebred dogs are more popular and widespread now than ever before. To think that there is no place for a dog like that in todays world only shows ignorance of the breed. Can they be improved? Sure, breeders (honorable breeders) do not duplicate past generations without attempting to improve the dog by building on the fundamentals which separate this dog from all others. Lots of people believe that the dog should be bred differently today so that they can have dog park dogs. Those dogs would be ASTs, pet bulls, American bullies, and whatever else they have now. See, there comes a point where a dog can be changed so much that it's no longer the same dog, that's the logic behind standards. (to restrict change). The dog is what it is. Always has been and always will be.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost: sheeshus ~!!


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## echs332000 (Jan 10, 2010)

well, i have a new problem....chino is now flipping out over dogs that he interacts with everyday. I walk him at 6:00 am every morning...i see the same neighboors every morning walking their dogs. i never let chino stop and sniff these dogs for the simple fact that they are annoying ankle biting rats. He usually just walks by and minds his own business. Not the case this morning. Im doing the usual walk and here comes this poop bag shitzu barking and lunging like always....Chino see's this and turn tense instantly. This causes my golden to do the exact same thing. I snap them both out of it and switch directions. I come across another dog and chino does the exact same thing, except this time, his ears are laid back and his tail is straight up in the air, no wagging or anything. The hair is standing straight up on the back of his neck. Once again i snap him out of it, and make a v-line back to my apartment. Im wondering if the encounter at the dog park has made him DA with strange dogs. 

So far he is still fine with my golden. He has never shown a ounce of aggression towards him, even with my golden being the dominant one between the 2. Regardless im going to pay close attention to how they interact with each other


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Sampsons Dad said:


> just say no


HAHA, I like that. I think that might be my new signature..:goodpost:


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

buzhunter said:


> What you are proposing has already been accomplished in the AST (that was the point of the breed) When Mother Nature is in charge of the evolution the goal is quite different than when man is in control. Gamebred dogs are more popular and widespread now than ever before. To think that there is no place for a dog like that in todays world only shows ignorance of the breed. Can they be improved? Sure, breeders (honorable breeders) do not duplicate past generations without attempting to improve the dog by building on the fundamentals which separate this dog from all others. Lots of people believe that the dog should be bred differently today so that they can have dog park dogs. Those dogs would be ASTs, pet bulls, American bullies, and whatever else they have now. See, there comes a point where a dog can be changed so much that it's no longer the same dog, that's the logic behind standards. (to restrict change). The dog is what it is. Always has been and always will be.


Brother come to Oklahoma and I'm buying you a round! :goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Hey I do gotta say Buz... I still wouldn't trust a petbull in a dog park! Chino's growin a pair on him and Ive seen him become less fond of other dogs within the last couple of months I wouldn't want to find out the hard way what he's capable of doing....

And to Isis.. How is saying No to dog parks increasing the stigma? I would think the more incidents brought on by continuing to bring dog aggressive dogs (they are DA by nature and behind generations and generations of breeding) to dog parks would multiply the amount of people who have witnessed "a vicious pitbull".. Wouldn't you think?

Its wishful thinking, not only that but erroneous to think that your dog is an exception and it's only one of the few key steps you have to take in order to be responsible for your dogs, wether it's a shelti, a malamute, a corgi or a game bred apbt.. or bully, doesn't matter. Youre mixing up things that don't go together. our breed will always be viewed as the antagonist and it goes to show that the definition of insanity truly means doing the same thing and expecting different results. go ahead think your dogs will be the exception and cry when fido is the one case that pushed legislators to bring up BSL in your town.


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## intensive (Apr 22, 2008)

lol, your dogs name is dank, lol


yea dog parks make me nervous, and iv never taken my dogs into one


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

echs332000 said:


> well, i have a new problem....chino is now flipping out over dogs that he interacts with everyday. I walk him at 6:00 am every morning...i see the same neighboors every morning walking their dogs. i never let chino stop and sniff these dogs for the simple fact that they are annoying ankle biting rats. He usually just walks by and minds his own business. Not the case this morning. Im doing the usual walk and here comes this poop bag shitzu barking and lunging like always....Chino see's this and turn tense instantly. This causes my golden to do the exact same thing. I snap them both out of it and switch directions. I come across another dog and chino does the exact same thing, except this time, his ears are laid back and his tail is straight up in the air, no wagging or anything. The hair is standing straight up on the back of his neck. Once again i snap him out of it, and make a v-line back to my apartment. Im wondering if the encounter at the dog park has made him DA with strange dogs.
> 
> So far he is still fine with my golden. He has never shown a ounce of aggression towards him, even with my golden being the dominant one between the 2. Regardless im going to pay close attention to how they interact with each other


He is da, maybe it just took this interaction to bring it out in him. I'd be careful too when walking both dogs, if Chino is aggressive and ready to fire and that golden does the same thing he may get frustrated and do what is called redirected aggression to what is closest to him....his golden friend. if this happens you may need to walk them in rotation and if it helps..walk Chino with a muzzle. I do it for protection. Riley walks with a muzzle on all the time. She started just like your pup too and now..I have to rotate because any slight aggressive stare from Peaches, any growl from any dog She snaps.
you maybe able to train him to leave it but again..what if a dog hops a fence or is loose and they fight and no one is around? muzzle him and carry pepper spray. I am thinking of buying some just incase a dog charges mine. it would have helped at the dog park too in that situation. spray it in the dogs face and they instantly back off!


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## Maraty (Jan 11, 2010)

echs332000 said:


> well, i have a new problem....chino is now flipping out over dogs that he interacts with everyday. I walk him at 6:00 am every morning...i see the same neighboors every morning walking their dogs. i never let chino stop and sniff these dogs for the simple fact that they are annoying ankle biting rats. He usually just walks by and minds his own business. Not the case this morning. Im doing the usual walk and here comes this poop bag shitzu barking and lunging like always....Chino see's this and turn tense instantly. This causes my golden to do the exact same thing. I snap them both out of it and switch directions. I come across another dog and chino does the exact same thing, except this time, his ears are laid back and his tail is straight up in the air, no wagging or anything. The hair is standing straight up on the back of his neck. Once again i snap him out of it, and make a v-line back to my apartment. Im wondering if the encounter at the dog park has made him DA with strange dogs.
> 
> So far he is still fine with my golden. He has never shown a ounce of aggression towards him, even with my golden being the dominant one between the 2. Regardless im going to pay close attention to how they interact with each other


Ahh.. see he had no way to recover from the dog at the park. The dogs were seperated. And removed from each other. He has has no way of knowing now, if this is going to happen every time he meets up with a dog thats isnt part of his family. (pack if youd like). 
And I agree with you in the other post about how people just dont act responsible with their dogs.. (pets)(heck kids!).
Best thing would be to bring the two dogs back together and sniff each other and be submissive. However I asume you dont know the guy.. And both owners need to be in control.. This man obvisouly was NOT. 
You cant help him with the barking ankle biters. Well you can but im not suggesting.. any thing.
Because the people that own those dogs dont seem like they are in control iether. 
Call around see if there are any socialization places around. Explain what happen. 
When these things happen.. dogs need to be brought back together and shown we are in control not them. 
All you can do is keep correcting your dog. And hope if enough of the other dog owners see you. They will start correcting theirs.


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## Isis (Jan 2, 2010)

My words are being misconstrued to represent something that I am in no sense getting at, at all. I shouldn't have used the words change and generation in the same paragraph, as I have now learned.

What I was trying to express is my personal desire is to encourage the best out of *any* dog. In the context of that last part of my post, I was saying I want to do what is in my power to change the _stigma_ *not* the naturual biology or characteristics of the dog (I love them!).

Let me further clarify that I agree, most people with dog aggressive or high tempered dogs should avoid dog parks. However, I don't believe in suggesting a certain breed be exiled from certain environments. Many bad situations can be avoided entirely and ideally erratic situations should be used for conditioning and not for socialization.

DueceAddicTed, I responded to your post.



buzhunter said:


> What you are proposing has already been accomplished in the AST (that was the point of the breed) When Mother Nature is in charge of the evolution the goal is quite different than when man is in control. Gamebred dogs are more popular and widespread now than ever before. To think that there is no place for a dog like that in todays world only shows ignorance of the breed. Can they be improved? Sure, breeders (honorable breeders) do not duplicate past generations without attempting to improve the dog by building on the fundamentals which separate this dog from all others. Lots of people believe that the dog should be bred differently today so that they can have dog park dogs. Those dogs would be ASTs, pet bulls, American bullies, and whatever else they have now. See, there comes a point where a dog can be changed so much that it's no longer the same dog, that's the logic behind standards. (to restrict change). The dog is what it is. Always has been and always will be.


What exacty am I proposing? Because you're refering to something I never even brought up. I did not suggest breeding the dog differently so it can attend the dog park. No where did I say there is no place for an APBT. I have absolutely no hint of a desire to change and inforce traits on the dog that it doesn't already have. What I do believe in is _encouraging_ the dogs positive characteristics and channeling other characteristics into something progressive/positive.



StaffyDaddy said:


> And to Isis.. How is saying No to dog parks increasing the stigma? I would think the more incidents brought on by continuing to bring dog aggressive dogs (they are DA by nature and behind generations and generations of breeding) to dog parks would multiply the amount of people who have witnessed "a vicious pitbull".. Wouldn't you think?
> 
> Its wishful thinking, not only that but erroneous to think that your dog is an exception and it's only one of the few key steps you have to take in order to be responsible for your dogs, wether it's a shelti, a malamute, a corgi or a game bred apbt.. or bully, doesn't matter. Youre mixing up things that don't go together. our breed will always be viewed as the antagonist and it goes to show that the definition of insanity truly means doing the same thing and expecting different results. go ahead think your dogs will be the exception and cry when fido is the one case that pushed legislators to bring up BSL in your town.


Saying No to dog parks isn't increasing the stigma at all, thats a completely rational _choice_! However, making an _absolute_ statement (the kind i was referring to) such as "Pit Bulls are not appropriate visitors of dog parks" is to categorize the breed. Is it a good idea for most Pit Bull owners to avoid dog parks? Yes. Is this the case for every single one? No. Are many Pit Bulls dog aggressive? Yes. Are all? No. Some dogs are fearful which is just as dangerous! It's all about knowing your dog. Like I said in my other posts, I completely advocate staying away from unstable environments if you are not prepared, and if your dog isn't used to such situations. I was very specific in saying when I would personally advocate taking any dog to a dog park. I would personally not even unleash my dog unless all the dogs knew each other and I had a break stick.

Its not about the dog, it's about the owner. I don't think my dogs are the exception. The kind of responsible ownership I was getting at, actually requires you acknowledge the negative possibilities, and any instability in your dog rather than ignoring it. It's assuming the worst of your dog, preparing for it and guiding it in the proper direction. For example: If someone simply acknowledged that their dog was dog aggressive and simply accepted it without taking the steps to guide it in the right direction, you would have a potentially very dangerous dog on your hands. Thats why for any breed with DA or high energy temperaments, socializing is a MUST. You would be doing the best thing for your dog through _conditioning_.

Like I said to DueceAddicTed, the benefit of an unstable environment is that it can be used as a tool in conditioning for the dog. A responsible handler can guide a dog in how to behave in the face of erratic circumstances. That way when an unexpected situation arises ie: like the meeting of an unleashed dog, your dog will have the confidence to handle the situation appropriately. Without learned behavior all the dog has is its instincts to act on. Thats why its ideal to equip your dog with the traits that with keep it _out_ of trouble and out of headlines. Can this be achieved through better means than the dog park? Certainly! But it is no reason to completely exile a breed.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Not really interested in the back and forth (gets me in trouble with management) just a few things you posted caught my attention so I threw in my .02. Maybe I misunderstood. 

Oz: I agree 100%. Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

mygirlmaile said:


> Unfortunate situation...but our breed should not go to a dog park period. Despite who started the fight, an APBT will get blamed first.
> 
> DONT TAKE YOUR DOG TO THE DOG PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

Lol @ the continual use of my name ... I to am not about to get into the back and forth over dog parks. And yes I read your response to my post. I still stand by mine. As for the originality of the thread, I hope no one else has to experience what he went thru and how his dog is now reacting do to it.

End of my input on this thread ....


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## Chinadog (Sep 14, 2009)

If you want a friendly dog park, dog... get a poodle.


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

I wish pitbulls were banned from all dog parks. They just don't belong in them and I think It will require a ban on pitbulls to keep people from trying to prove others wrong and showing that their pitbulls can do fine in dog parks.

Fact of the matter is you can have a million successfull dog park visits but then have 1 bad outting and have the story hit the airways like never before and then have the whole vicious dog thing brought right back up.

I like I said before on another forum why take the chance, why give the media more ammo? Its not worth it. Like StaffyDad said(i think) just say no its that simple.

Negative images out weight the positive images on pitbulls lets not keep adding to the negative.


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

DueceAddicTed said:


> Its not about sheltering your dog ... its about knowing the breed and its background. Knowing and accepting the responsibilities that are attached to owning them. I know many a dog that can out smart their owners in body language once they have it set in their mind. Our dogs may not start the problem but they will finish it. Thinking its a form of sheltering is pretty amusing and risky IMO ... thinking that an APBT needs to be with other dogs to be happy is ridiculous ...
> I'd like to understand whats the bias behind the screen, when the majority of people giving their opinion have experienced this same situation or have been dealing with these dogs for years ?


Good point & my story below will show I stand corrected. I just have a very jaded & perplexed view because of the way media hypes stories. Which sometimes concerns me as what to really believe without knowing whether or not people's opinions are based on experience or if they believe in being told how to think.

I take proper precautions not just with a pitbull, but with any breed. Funny after posting my first response I had a huge dose of reality when my neighbor who also owns an apbt/mix. She's hyper aggressive & snaps at my dog-(full papered apbt) & husband when he mows the lawn through her fence. She's jumped her fence & confronted people walking their dogs down the street - Thankfully nothing serious has happened, yet. I'm not saying my dog is godlike but he's not shown one inkling of aggression with our cats, neighbor dogs or feral animals, I mean - I just don't see it in him.

Anyway, I was taking my dog out to relieve himself, he goes on a tether since we don't have a fence & I stand outside with him just to keep watch. My neighbor comes out to say hi & put her dog in the screened in porch (this person I typically try to avoid because she's confrontational). Then calls my dog over to pet him, mind you her dog is watching it's master give my dog attention & I personally have witnessed over a year their dog just be left outside & rarely get's attention (part of her aggression I believe). Well she's chatting my head off, the next thing I know she asks if it's okay she let her dog out to play. I'm thinking she meant out of the screened in porch so they can sniff between the fence - which I would have been okay with.

Immediately Lex runs to my back door, wanting to go inside - confused I call him over & say it's okay. Then all of a sudden the neighbors dog is on my property with my neighbors daughter on a half chewed leash. My dog approaches them happily & immediately goes into submission mode, wagging his tail. Immediately I was concerned by the neighbor dog's reaction. She stands tall with her tail straight up in the air not wagging - which I've read this is a sign portraying dominance (in MY yard). Then the neighbor dogs sniffs lex & lex - still wagging his lil tail sniffs her back. Next thing I know our neighbors dog start nipping at lex & the neighbor mom goes, ''it's okay they're just playing.'' Then the dog approaches me. Immediately Lex ran over next to me & out of no where starts boxing their dog away from me while he's still on tether - this all occurred on my property within a blink of an eye.

Before I let it get any further I told them I was uncomfortable with the situation to take their dog home immediately (because their dog was being dominant toward my dog on his property I didn't say to them but all the bad signs were there & how aggressive their dog is, really scared me). Then out of no where the neighbor had the nerve to accuse my dog of being aggressive & that was her reasoning to her daughter to bring their dog home - after I had already stated they needed to take their dog out of my yard. Once she said that, it was open game & I laid into her like you would not believe, explaining how her children carelessly trespass & leave garbage all over my property, their dog has jumped the fence at other people & charged me in my yard as well as my husband while he mows & she had NO RIGHT accusing my dog of being aggressive on his/MY property. My heart has never pounded so fast


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

Lex's Guardian said:


> Good point & my story below will show I stand corrected. I just have a very jaded & perplexed view because of the way media hypes stories. Which sometimes concerns me as what to really believe without knowing whether or not people's opinions are based on experience or if they believe in being told how to think.
> 
> I take proper precautions not just with a pitbull, but with any breed. Funny after posting my first response I had a huge dose of reality when my neighbor who also owns an apbt/mix. She's hyper aggressive & snaps at my dog-(full papered apbt) & husband when he mows the lawn through her fence. She's jumped her fence & confronted people walking their dogs down the street - Thankfully nothing serious has happened, yet. I'm not saying my dog is godlike but he's not shown one inkling of aggression with our cats, neighbor dogs or feral animals, I mean - I just don't see it in him.
> 
> ...


Glad that situation did not get out of hand for you and Lex ..... and appreciate you sharing your story .... 
I've seen some pretty sweet situations turn bloody ... 
Keep an eye on that neighbor and good luck ...


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## Chinadog (Sep 14, 2009)

I would have been fuming too! I hope they dont bother you in the future.


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## B.Mamba (Jan 20, 2010)

mygirlmaile said:


> Unfortunate situation...but our breed should not go to a dog park period. Despite who started the fight, an APBT will get blamed first.
> 
> DONT TAKE YOUR DOG TO THE DOG PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is what the owner/breeder of my dog told me.


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## helhedded (Dec 26, 2009)

I took my 5.5 month old ABPT boy (my first dog) to a popular "dog" park and even though he really enjoyed it, we won't be returning. There are plenty of other parks here that are less traveled by the mainstream. This park was nasty too... I was dodging piles of poo left and right. I even came across a few ignorant dog owners as well. The experience was fun because my puppy had a blast, but it still left me with a questionable feeling about the park due to the un-cleanliness and ignorance displayed by other owners. After seeing a thread about dog parks on here I was advised to do some research on the topic and that's all that I needed.

thank you gopitbull.com and the internet in general


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

The greats don't worry about other dogs until they are bitten. My favorite line Jocko stuff is just silly crazy to get a dog though, by nature. My lil Zebo/Halls/G*G Spike dog is different, he's totally cool unless a dog grabs him... Hes not my coyote hunter thats for sure.. LOL But he lives to do anything you want him to and in the spring time tree black bear. I could take him to a dog park and have as well as soccer games. If I took my jocko dogs to the park, LOL :roll: not gonna' do it... not gonna' do it... wouldn't be prudent at these junctures.. LOL 

The problem is PEOPLE, everyone wants to prove what they don't know, and everyone else is lookin' to for leverage, that payout, that drama, or that reason to gripe or put all ones energy into making someone miserable w/ their ignorance.. LOL


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## Lex's Guardian (Aug 8, 2009)

Thank you both DeuceAddicted & Chinadog... I don't believe I'll have to worry about them, since I've communicated my concerns. If they try anything in the future - I've got all the documentation, photos & recorded video I'll ever need in case I have to prove a future case - you can't be too careful. One thing I certainly believe, is you make your own luck 

This forum definitely looks out for the fellow apbt owners whether we see it immediately or after learning for ourselves.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

While I understand the reasoning and sentiment behind avoiding dog parks, I do and will continue to go to dog parks.

My reason is that for one, the dog park does provide a great deal of experience. Sometimes it's the only convenient/available source for that at a given time. I find socialization and exposure to many different circumstances very important for any dog and wouldn't want a dog denied that if only a dog park was avialable to it for that and the owner didn't want to go to avoid it's dog attacking another dog.

I see a lot of people advocating responsible ownership and avoiding bad PR for the breed. Kudos. I find though that on top of just avoiding headlines it's a matter of changing the public image of the APBT as there are people out there who simply will not be responsible and make headlines. If all the public is aware of are these idiots and the media's image of vicious pit bulls because all the responsible owners have them tucked away to avoid headlines then that's still a really bad situation. It's a democracy, majority rule, if these people have no reason not to vote against BSL, then they won't.

My solution to this is getting out there, getting to dog parks, showing them a well mannered pit bull first hand, showing them a responsible owner, showing them that like every dog when properly cared for there's no reason to fear these animals. How can I accomplish this? A muzzle. Boom. I now have no fear of my dog biting another dog. I'll even carry a breakstick if for some reason another dog bites mine or another persons dog. I'll explain this to people, why it's all done, so they understand. The muzzle isn't because my dog bites, but incase something happens where she would, then she can't. That and other people are far more comfortable approaching and being around an APBT with their dogs or children when it's muzzled simply due to the current public image. Public awareness, responsible ownership, and taking the precautions to ensure nothing can happen.

There's no need to avoid a dog park unless the dog park, like in the OP, is no longer a positive experience for the dog or is at a risk of being negative for it. I'm lucky as I have a good amount of quality parks within the area. Just my POV, to each their own.


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Demios said:


> While I understand the reasoning and sentiment behind avoiding dog parks, I do and will continue to go to dog parks.
> 
> My reason is that for one, the dog park does provide a great deal of experience. Sometimes it's the only convenient/available source for that at a given time. I find socialization and exposure to many different circumstances very important for any dog and wouldn't want a dog denied that if only a dog park was avialable to it for that and the owner didn't want to go to avoid it's dog attacking another dog.
> 
> ...


Since you wish to continue going to dog parks I wish you luck and that nothing ever happens.

Also there are other ways to promote the breed besides taking ABPTs to dog parks trying to prove people wrong. Just because your dog is muzzled doesn't guarantee your dog isn't going to be held responsible for starting the fight in the publics eye. The last paragraph you stated that their is no need to avioid a dog park unless you have a bad experience. So that does nothing more than add even more negative images to the breed. Taking APBTs to a dog park is not a Trail and Error deal, its a very serious situation, and if gone bad can land a law suit in your lap and/or get BSL in your town.
"The Nail that Sticks out will get hammered"


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

Mcleod15 said:


> Since you wish to continue going to dog parks I wish you luck and that nothing ever happens.


Thank you  I dunno why I'd need it any more than anyone else with any other breed but it's appreciated nonetheless. Good vibes are nice.


Mcleod15 said:


> Also there are other ways to promote the breed besides taking ABPTs to dog parks trying to prove people wrong.


I don't really understand you on this one. I didn't say there weren't other ways. Dunno where you'd come up with that, of course there are. I also dunno why you'd think I am trying to prove people wrong. I didn't say anything of the sort. Here I just see you trying to attribute some rather irrational and unreasonable positions to me that I never put myself in. Please don't deliberately try to misconstrue what I say, however if you genuinely just somehow thought that's what I said no worries.


Mcleod15 said:


> Just because your dog is muzzled doesn't guarantee your dog isn't going to be held responsible for starting the fight in the publics eye.


Perhaps, I'm not going to argue that's not a possibility. I don't see much headline potential and I'd think if my muzzled dog got in a fight, aka it getting bit and not being able to do anything back but body checks, I'd have people apologizing to me. Not really the other way around. I could be wrong though.


Mcleod15 said:


> The last paragraph you stated that their is no need to avioid a dog park unless you have a bad experience. So that does nothing more than add even more negative images to the breed.


Bad experiences is a rather broad category and was referring to the dog personally. Ie: Dog gets used as a springboard by a Great Dane and no longer is stoked on going to the dog park. Avoid it then. I don't see the great difficulty or danger to the breed here. 


Mcleod15 said:


> Taking APBTs to a dog park is not a Trail and Error deal, its a very serious situation, and if gone bad can land a law suit in your lap and/or get BSL in your town.
> "The Nail that Sticks out will get hammered"


I totally agree and again don't understand why you think I'd believe differently.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

play with matches and one day youl get burned at your dogs expence


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Ya, we ALL get burned....


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

You are being quite cryptic, and while I'm enjoying the proverbs, I don't really get your point. How am I playing with matches?


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## Isis (Jan 2, 2010)

Fires can be started many a ways.

Fights between dogs can happen in a variety of circumstances. 
Likely in dog parks? Yes. Likely on walks? Possibly. Likely in socializing two dogs who don't know each other even if the owners do? Possibly. It can happen anywhere, dogs are foremost animals.

It's a responsible owner who can identify when and where fights may occur and whom would _equip_ themselves to be able to prepare for such a situation. Ie: Leashes, Break sticks, Pepper spray, Muzzles etc. _Prevention_. Any dog can be dangerous, however not all dogs are taught how to appropriately respond to challenges.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Demios said:


> You are being quite cryptic, and while I'm enjoying the proverbs, I don't really get your point. How am I playing with matches?


Why tempt fate? It's an unnecessary stress on your dog. I'd never put a dog in a position where he'd have to be muzzled, but that's just me. You don't have to force a square peg into a round hole just to prove that you can. I wouldn't want to explain to a judge why I felt the need to muzzle my innocent dog in the first place. Again, just me.


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## Czar (Nov 11, 2009)

I was never a fan of dog parks dunno y..I guess to many annoying people and way to many dogs for my comfort..They run around lose, and some are to hyper and aggresive and makes me a bit uncomfortable...To each his own..I like to go to a park with no people and run my dog with no headache and less chance of anything bad happening


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

buzhunter said:


> Why tempt fate?


I don't see how I'm tempting fate.


buzhunter said:


> It's an unnecessary stress on your dog.


I never advocated exposing your dog to unnecessary stress. I wouldn't do such a thing and I mentioned the whole bad experiences thing in a previous post.


buzhunter said:


> I'd never put a dog in a position where he'd have to be muzzled, but that's just me.


If the dog has no problem with the muzzle, then I see no problem. If it does, then don't force your dog into an unnecessary stressful situation. Idealistically I'd love all dogs to be without muzzle or even leash running freely and peacefully.


buzhunter said:


> You don't have to force a square peg into a round hole just to prove that you can.


Again with this stuff, I don't see how you think I'm trying to prove anything.


buzhunter said:


> I wouldn't want to explain to a judge why I felt the need to muzzle my innocent dog in the first place. Again, just me.


Why would I need to explain that to a judge? Where'd that come from? And I could easily justify/explain it.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Demios said:


> Idealistically I'd love all dogs to be without muzzle or even leash running freely and peacefully.


Ideology doesn't always mix well with rationality. Probably where you're missing my point. lol


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

since you like to break up everyone's posts...



Demios said:


> While I understand the reasoning and sentiment behind avoiding dog parks, I do and will continue to go to dog parks.


Since you continue to go to dog parks, you do not truly understand the sentinment behind avoiding dog parks. You are aware of it and continue to do as you wish, which is human nature. We do what we want.



Demios said:


> My reason is that for one, the dog park does provide a great deal of experience. Sometimes it's the only convenient/available source for that at a given time.


Experience? How does a dog park provide experience? For you? Or your dog? Or others that wonder about your dog?



Demios said:


> I find socialization and exposure to many different circumstances very important for any dog and wouldn't want a dog denied that if only a dog park was avialable to it for that and the owner didn't want to go to avoid it's dog attacking another dog.


I understand socialization plays a crucial role in raising ANY dog, but the dog park is not a socialization tool. Proper socialization is done in a controlled environment, with known dogs, not strange dogs and their owners all socializing, while the dogs are running off lead.



Demios said:


> I see a lot of people advocating responsible ownership and avoiding bad PR for the breed.


Yes because if you look at news headlines and research breed specific legislation you will see that as time goes on more and more cities, towns and counties are proposing BSL laws. Simple as that.



Demios said:


> Kudos. I find though that on top of just avoiding headlines it's a matter of changing the public image of the APBT as there are people out there who simply will not be responsible and make headlines.


You're changing the public image maybe for a few outings until the unevitable happens. Your dog may be muzzled, but dogs are off lead in dog parks and just because your dog cannot physically clamp and tear into another dog when challenged does not mean she won't show aggression. Think that won't reassure people's beliefs and sentiments towards our breed??



Demios said:


> If all the public is aware of are these idiots and the media's image of vicious pit bulls because all the responsible owners have them tucked away to avoid headlines then that's still a really bad situation. It's a democracy, majority rule, if these people have no reason not to vote against BSL, then they won't.


How do you propose we expose these idiots? Most every person on this site tries their best to be a good embassador for the breed, surely that would have stopped BSL by now right?



Demios said:


> My solution to this is getting out there, getting to dog parks, showing them a well mannered pit bull first hand, showing them a responsible owner, showing them that like every dog when properly cared for there's no reason to fear these animals. How can I accomplish this? A muzzle.


Show a well mannered pitbull at a normal park, around your children or family, around other dogs you know are UTD and socialized, during training sessions, with titles, certifications.. A muzzle tells the average person "my dog bites" nice image there buddy.



Demios said:


> Boom. I now have no fear of my dog biting another dog. I'll even carry a breakstick if for some reason another dog bites mine or another persons dog. I'll explain this to people, why it's all done, so they understand. The muzzle isn't because my dog bites, but incase something happens where she would, then she can't.


Well no flesh can be wounded you're right. Breaksticks shouldn't be used for other breeds of dogs, btw, and using it on a dog that may or not be human aggressive is just asking to get bit. JMO. But if you were not taking your dog to the dog park.. the "in case something happens..." factor would not be there. Correct? Or no?



Demios said:


> That and other people are far more comfortable approaching and being around an APBT with their dogs or children when it's muzzled simply due to the current public image. Public awareness, responsible ownership, and taking the precautions to ensure nothing can happen.


Again, most people who see a pitbull with a muzzle will ASSUME your dog BITES. Why promote that image? You may think you're actually improving the situation, but you're fueling the fire that is ignorance.



Demios said:


> There's no need to avoid a dog park unless the dog park, like in the OP, is no longer a positive experience for the dog or is at a risk of being negative for it. I'm lucky as I have a good amount of quality parks within the area. Just my POV, to each their own.


Maybe if you understood the history behind the real APBT and the aggressive tendencies that are just natural for the dog to display, you would see things differently. Everyone thinks their dog is the exception, because you have hot and cold dogs. Your dog may never show Dog Aggression, and some may call that a curr and some may think that is the best quality ever. But going back to what I said these dogs were bred to be tenacious, powerful, and headstrong, believing themselves to be the king of the pit. Hence the name.

Sorry I broke down your post, just thought I'd ask where you're coming from.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

buzhunter said:


> Ideology doesn't always mix well with rationality. Probably where you're missing my point. lol


Well, that's common sense. That statement of mine was meant to be unrealistic, utopian, etc. I still don't see your point. I'm finding you quite difficult to follow, so I guess we'll just leave it at that.


StaffyDaddy said:


> since you like to break up everyone's posts...
> 
> ...
> 
> Sorry I broke down your post, just thought I'd ask where you're coming from.


Hey StaffyDaddy. If I like breaking up everyone's posts what's the need to apologize for breaking mine down? No worries, it's appreciated. You're being concise. I like it.


StaffyDaddy said:


> Since you continue to go to dog parks, you do not truly understand the sentinment behind avoiding dog parks. You are aware of it and continue to do as you wish, which is human nature. We do what we want.


Perhaps this is true. If I'm wrong, please tell me so, but from my understanding the sentiment behind avoiding dog parks is to not allow for any possibility of the dog somehow harming another dog and creating bad PR for the breed en masse. We appeal to responsible ownership and the preservation of the breed's credibility in the public eye. We want to give no ammunition to those who would like to see this breed banned. Am I close?

I don't do as I wish simply because it is what I wish. I consider myself a man of reason, therefore I expect my actions to be reasonable.


StaffyDaddy said:


> Experience? How does a dog park provide experience? For you? Or your dog? Or others that wonder about your dog?


A dog park provides experience by being a dog park. A sunset provides an experience by being a sunset and having I experience it. Same mechanism at play here.

As for who this experience is for, my dog of course. I mostly just get some exercise and time with my dog. For my dog, it offers the experience of a number of unfamiliar dogs at a neutral territory. This is great for it's conditioning, as I can expose it to dogs running around, chasing each other. Very exciting stuff. My dog doesn't take part however, it's there to simply observe. We go to the dog park section of the parks we visit at the end of our lengthy walk/hike. Here the dog is just sitting at the perimeter watching the other dogs do their thing. At first, this was an amazing sight and the dog would get incredibly excited wanted to run and meet all these other dogs. Now, it's just another thing on the walk. It sits there and watches, interested but not motivated to pull on the leash to play. Perfect. Why? It doesn't care now when another dog runs up to a fence and starts barking at it. It stays calm focused on the task at hand: walking. Good PR. No risk of biting. If there's some exceptionally energetic or troublesome dogs at the park, if there's simply too many dogs all over the place, things like that that may compromise my control over the situation, then we just go straight to the car and finish the walk. Now is this unreasonable?


StaffyDaddy said:


> I understand socialization plays a crucial role in raising ANY dog, but the dog park is not a socialization tool. Proper socialization is done in a controlled environment, with known dogs, not strange dogs and their owners all socializing, while the dogs are running off lead.


I agree. The dog park is not a socialization tool. Socialization can take place there possibly, but it is by no means the primary use. Instead, I use it for the aspect of my quoted text that you neglected to mention: exposure. I agree, socialization should take place in a controlled environment, dogs should be properly introduced, there shouldn't be strange dogs and their owners running about possibly creating undesirable situations, especially off leash. It's rare that my dog will be off leash, certainly not in a public area like a park.


StaffyDaddy said:


> Yes because if you look at news headlines and research breed specific legislation you will see that as time goes on more and more cities, towns and counties are proposing BSL laws. Simple as that.


Yes, I've looked into it. And yes, it is getting popular. I agree.


StaffyDaddy said:


> You're changing the public image maybe for a few outings until the unevitable happens. Your dog may be muzzled, but dogs are off lead in dog parks and just because your dog cannot physically clamp and tear into another dog when challenged does not mean she won't show aggression. Think that won't reassure people's beliefs and sentiments towards our breed??


Slippery slope. This can be expanded to say that any public display of aggression is bad PR for the breed. I agree. We can then apply this to fenced pit bulls showing aggression, etc, etc. There are then so many circumstances far beyond the dog park that need to be regulated. This argument, that is it is inevitable that my dog will show aggression and that it'll be bad PR reaffirming people's beliefs towards the breed and then should be avoided, encompasses any situation where your dog can be seen by the public. While it applies to dog parks, dog parks are most certainly not the only place for this to happen.

Anyways, as for this occuring to me personally, I refer to my previous comments on my beliefs regarding off leash.


StaffyDaddy said:


> How do you propose we expose these idiots? Most every person on this site tries their best to be a good embassador for the breed, surely that would have stopped BSL by now right?


I've never really put thought into how one would go about exposing the idiots. As for the second question HA! That was a good one. I chuckled.


StaffyDaddy said:


> Show a well mannered pitbull at a normal park, around your children or family, around other dogs you know are UTD and socialized, during training sessions, with titles, certifications.. A muzzle tells the average person "my dog bites" nice image there buddy.


Most certainly, there are many great methods of doing so. Never implied there wasn't. And yes, that is the average perception of a muzzle. It's quite unfortunate. One has to remember though, that for many "average" people, simply the fact the dog is a pit bull tells them "my dog bites."

To me, muzzling of dogs should be a more accepted practice and one viewed with less stigma then it is. There's a lot of German Shepherds I've met with my APBT that I would have loved to seen muzzled as they were dangerously aggressive. Had we not taken the steps to avoid at a distance and these dogs were allowed to have crossed paths closely, they would have surely bit my dog. We may say these dogs, or even little aggressive terriers or chihuahuas, don't pose a threat and don't need to be muzzled or are acceptable in a dog park, but if one of them manage to get a tooth or nail in your show poodle's eye during an exciting exchange you'll be screaming bloody murder. I understand dog aggression as a reality of dog nature, it's common sense, as should most people. So instead of having situations like the above almost occur, regardless of the breed, why not take the steps necessary to muzzle your dog and just remove any possibility if there is one? It's not that I'm advocating the muzzling of all dogs at all times, or this or that, or some other absolute statement. It's that if the possibility is there, you have a tool to eliminate it, and you really have no excuse not to use it. For a lot of people, the need for a muzzle won't arise. There are other steps that can be taken to avoid such a situation without a muzzle that can also be used but some people just seem to have a hard time doing so.

Again, bringing up BSL, there's a much referred (at least here in Canada) "reasoned apprehension of harm" regarding the "pit bull" that justifies the ban. Due to the public's perspective on pit bulls, and for most provided exclusively by the media, there is a great deal of fear surrounding simply the sight of a pit bull walking down the street. They don't know the dogs history, temperment, or anything, they do know media coverage of the breed. For many, seeing the dog muzzled eliminates this. There's still a fear regarding the dog, but they are assured it's incapable of inflicting any harm to them. As I said before, I've heard countless people confess how they would never dream of getting close to a pit bull that was not muzzled. I'm not saying muzzle your dog all the time, but if you're that afraid of your dog biting another dog or a person, I'd suggest you really consider it.

Yes, there is a negative image associated with muzzles. Same with prong collars, same with spiked or studded collars, same with leather harnesses, same with treadmills, same with spring poles, flirt poles, on and on and on. Does that mean we should stop the use of all these items? A friendly pit bull pulling on a leash towards someone that it wants to meet can be seen as threatening or aggressive. Stop walking the dog where people might see it or it may see people? Hard to do.


StaffyDaddy said:


> Well no flesh can be wounded you're right. Breaksticks shouldn't be used for other breeds of dogs, btw, and using it on a dog that may or not be human aggressive is just asking to get bit. JMO. But if you were not taking your dog to the dog park.. the "in case something happens..." factor would not be there. Correct? Or no?


APBTs and lookalikes can be human aggressive nowadays with the trend breeding and misuse/abuse of these dogs. Nowadays I don't really see that whole "the pit bull is less likely to redirect it's aggression from the other dog/break stick to you" perspective being applicable to the point I'd actually consider it. I wouldn't personally use it on a dog other then my own. If the other person however trusts their dog will not bite them, they can give it a go.

Also, if for you the dog park is the only place you would encounter a dog you live in a far different place than I. "Something can happen" damn near anywhere. A break sticks not a bad thing to just carry with, a walking stick isn't either, and neither is pepper spray/bear mace.


StaffyDaddy said:


> Maybe if you understood the history behind the real APBT and the aggressive tendencies that are just natural for the dog to display, you would see things differently. Everyone thinks their dog is the exception, because you have hot and cold dogs. Your dog may never show Dog Aggression, and some may call that a curr and some may think that is the best quality ever. But going back to what I said these dogs were bred to be tenacious, powerful, and headstrong, believing themselves to be the king of the pit. Hence the name.


I wouldn't say I'm an expert by any measure, but I wouldn't say I'm completely unfamiliar with their history either. Dog aggression isn't a characteristic unique to this breed either. I dunno, maybe you just have a better understanding than I that compels you to see things differently than I do because of their history. Anyways, I agree with pretty much everything you said in this part otherwise.

That was engaging. Point for point. I apologize for the length, but you did ask where I was coming from, so I wanted to make sure nothing was left unclear.

Cheers :clap:


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Demios - You seem intelligent and well read yet I cannot seem to get through your posts without drifting off. Maybe the constant scrolling is hypnotizing me lol. I think a debate with you on any topic would be well worth the effort but you gotta condense it a little bit. Try one question at a time, one answer at a time. Reciprocation, my man. Keep me interested and we may get somewhere.


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

once your dog gets into a dog fight, more then likely thy're internal dog aggression switch will be turned on.
then you wont be able to take your dog anywhere, not to mention crate n rotate if you have multiple dogs already.
why put your dog in that position, thats part of owning this breed, we have to take precautions other breed owner dont, which includes not going to the dog park.


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

Taking true APBTs to a dog park is going against the very foundations that built this breed. Dog parks are not intend for fighting breeds(Common Sense IMO). Why take a dog to a dog park that is genetically wired and design to obliterate its k-9 opponent? 

Dog parks are for breeds like labs, collies, golden retrievers, boxers, poodles etc.... IMO

Like staffy d stated above dog parks are not a socialization tool, socialization should be done with experienced handlers, and known dogs.


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## Joseph_Norfleet (Sep 23, 2009)

no mere dog park 4 me either. out of the 3 times i visited one with my dog 2 went horribly wrong, both times someone threatening to call the cops.


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## Pitcrew (Jan 19, 2008)

I totally agree. Let common sense prevail. Why would you take a breed known for DA to a park where somebody will likely get snarky to say the LEAST?
What part of "this is NOT socialization do you people not get?"
Socialization is allowing your dog to meet people. PEOPLE not dogs.
If he happens to get along with your sisters dog, good for you and your sister. Do it at home. If you MUST, take him to your sisters house at a later time.
The most important thing is that he likes people and is not fearful of people.
Do this in the safety of the dogs home. Start when he is young.
Don't set him up to be taken away and euthed for being what he is.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

@buzhunter: Thanks for the compliment. As for the length of my post I apologize again and hope you can forgive my small transgression. While I wouldn't mind the 1 question, 1 answer approach, my time on the computer is erratic. I wanted to try to preemptively address any possible questions that may arise so I didn't have to in the future. If you're actually interested and cannot read it in it's entirety I could try to condense it.

@Nizmo: Your points completely rational and it is entirely plausible that after 1 fight they could have their "trigger switched." The point of the dog park for me, why I go, is conditioning responses in reaction to stimuli. To desensitize her to unusual or chaotic instances involving something she is genetically predisposed to be excited and aggressive toward. This is all so that when the situation isn't as controllable, isn't as easy to keep at a distance, that I have a whole bunch of support from this conditioning helping me keep her from going all frenzy and not responding to me at all. For example, something that happens far too often for my likeing, offleash dog sees you and comes running from an open property as you walk the dog down the street to burn some energy before you try to make dinner after getting home from work. 

@Mcleod: I agree, while I would think what a true APBT is today is still not to the standard it was previously for obvious reasons as far as the gameness and unrelenting DA goes.

@Pitcrew: Where did you hear that socialization is only toward humans and not dogs? Can't really recall coming across that before, as far as I know it's always been both humans and dogs.


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