# Question about breeding



## aprilortego (Aug 23, 2010)

Before I get thrown under the bus lol, I am not a breeder nor have I ever wanted to breed. My Nila is fixed and is strictly a house pet. I was watching youtube videos and ran across one where a man breed son to mother!! I am just curious would this not produce mutated puppies? Is this common practice? It seems disturbing and odd to me that a son/mother or daughter/father would be breed together. Like I said I am not a breeder so I am clueless about this. Is this a normal? What are the pros/cons of breeding mother/son or father/daughter?


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

its line breeding and majority of the dogs out there have that done somewhere in there pedigree more then once , Its a common thing and no it doesnt produce mutated puppys per say although you have to know what you are doing when doing that. I believe they do that to inhance certain traits they want although if done wrong you could be inhancing the bad traits that arent desired as well. I also think I heard someone say that you dont want to do more then 3 or so line breedings in a row or there can be things come about that arent so great was always told 2-3 line breedings then out cross with something. ALthough Im sure one of the breeders on here could chime in and give more of a reason why this is desired at times and when it isnt.


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

Son to mother would not be line breeding it would be inbreeding, and is very risky unless you have 2 pretty much perfect specimens then your still going to enhance every fault and would probably have to cull heavily


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I agree with you... it is slightly disturbing. I know inbreeding in humans leads to all sorts of messed up stuff.

Line breeding isn't as bad... but I still think its quite odd lol. Line breeding is more... Great granddaughter to Great Great grandson, usually of seperate Sires/Dams

INBREEDING VS LINEBREEDING


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

Bruce TGPs said:


> Son to mother would not be line breeding it would be inbreeding, and is very risky unless you have 2 pretty much perfect specimens then your still going to enhance every fault and would probably have to cull heavily


:goodpost::goodpost:

and most people arent very good at culling


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Are you sure? I see a ton of daughter to son , dad to daughter breedings all over the boards they say its line breeding.


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

Most do consider father to daughter line breeding although very tight, but mother to son is inbreeding


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Bruce TGPs said:


> Most do consider father to daughter line breeding although very tight, but mother to son is inbreeding


that makes no sense to me lol , isnt it pretty much the same thing mother to son vs father to daugter lol , is that just there way to make it sound more legit then calling it line breeding vs calling it inbreeding ? I actually thought the 2 were pretty much the same thing anyways just different wording.


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

angelbaby said:


> that makes no sense to me lol , isnt it pretty much the same thing mother to son vs father to daugter lol , is that just there way to make it sound more legit then calling it line breeding vs calling it inbreeding ? I actually thought the 2 were pretty much the same thing anyways just different wording.


Personally i would consider father to daughter , mother to son , or brother to sister inbreeding,but some do not consider father to daughter inbreeding , I have heard the argument that the genetic are not as tight but that would be too tight for me to consider JMO .


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

^^ I agree. I don't think I would buy a dog that has been produced from a Mom/Dad or Dad/Mom breeding. Or sister/brother for that matter...


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> ^^ I agree. I don't think I would buy a dog that has been produced from a Mom/Dad or Dad/Mom breeding. Or sister/brother for that matter...


Don't get me wrong i didn't say i would not own a dog bred that tight I just would not breed one that tight ,some mighty fine dogs come from inbreeding


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

Bruce TGPs said:


> Don't get me wrong i didn't say i would not own a dog bred that tight I just would not breed one that tight ,some mighty fine dogs come from inbreeding


some of the best and some of the worst come from it... just one of those things you research over and over again and take your chances.. then cull hard


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

it takes a lot of knowledge to breed a good dog that tight, theres some people that do it hella right and theres alot of people who fail at it hella hard. but its always a risk some times the litter comes out still or they come out and they all die, some times you get one or 2 pups outta it


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

That's what I was thinking. I mean Genetics Wise the odds are you'll get a couple pups that turn out the way you wanted... but what about the other six? Quality wise, how would their lives be? It just doesn't seem fair for the ones who didn't turn out the way they wanted, they get brought into the world just to die from bad breeding. Or they live but have a lot of health issues.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> That's what I was thinking. I mean Genetics Wise the odds are you'll get a couple pups that turn out the way you wanted... but what about the other six? Quality wise, how would their lives be? It just doesn't seem fair for the ones who didn't turn out the way they wanted, they get brought into the world just to die from bad breeding. Or they live but have a lot of health issues.


uhmm they probably wouldnt survive or if they were that messed up they'd be culled


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

Yeah but that's still not fair... they are killed just cause you wanted those 2 dogs to be "perfect"


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

ok lets put this in restoration terms would you want to put your name on a restoration where the finished product is a car held together by duct tape and string? some of these dogs might have defects that are severe and the dogs need to be put done because it'd be unfair to let them live that way.

this isnt a new thing though. in the wild nature doesnt care who the sire and dam are the best dogs survive the and the weak die, its messed up but its the truth.


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> Yeah but that's still not fair... they are killed just cause you wanted those 2 dogs to be "perfect"


That's exactly what what you get most of the time is 1 or 2 great dogs and cull the rest and i really do not mean most of the time but on the well researched and with the breeder that knows his dogs.


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I guess what I'm trying to say is Ethics wise... its just not right.


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

Chevys And Pitties said:


> I guess what I'm trying to say is Ethics wise... its just not right.


People always have been and probably always will be on the quest for the perfect bull dog


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

i know where your coming from but nature doesnt really have or follow the ethics we follow. our ethics are based mostly off religious values, animals dont have religions. no dog needs to get married to pass on his genes while if mans not married and passes em on he get shunned in certain communities


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

True... but its still weird lol


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

lol it only weird if you let it be weird, but with when people do it ill admit its kinda weird.


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

I guess its weird cause I couldn't imagine myself Inbreeding Akasha with one of her pups(Not planning on breeding at all btw, just to specify some more lol).

Edit: I fixed it...


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Bruce TGPs said:


> Son to mother would not be line breeding it would be inbreeding, and is very risky unless you have 2 pretty much perfect specimens then your still going to enhance every fault and would probably have to cull heavily


:goodpost:

You are going to double up on the good factors of the dog but also the negative and you have to cull heavily if you are going to do inbreeding with your lines and also know the dogs of the peds and what they bring to the table. There are many fantastic dogs who are heavily line bred and inbred from breeders who knew what they were looking for.



Bruce TGPs said:


> Personally i would consider father to daughter , mother to son , or brother to sister inbreeding,but some do not consider father to daughter inbreeding , I have heard the argument that the genetic are not as tight but that would be too tight for me to consider JMO .


:goodpost:



stonerreakinhavok said:


> lol it only weird if you let it be weird, but with when people do it ill admit its kinda weird.


People freak out all the time when they see peds with inbreeding in them but if you think about it the dogs don't care and shoot people way back in the day like in royalty were inbred and linebred to keep the lines "pure". Now in society we are programed to think of it as sick because if a father raises us we do not want to think of them ending in a sexual relationship because "morally" it is wrong. Dogs don't care and with breeders it is all about the Genetics and what you can produce.



Chevys And Pitties said:


> I guess its weird cause I couldn't imagine myself doing it with one of my dogs lol.


Now that is gross and called beastilatliy... or do you mean inbreeding your two dogs.... that post could go either way! lol :rofl:

With my breeding program I am going to mess with some inbreeding and linebreeding in the new few years once my pups I have now mature more. I was to tighten up on some traits and I am aware of the negatives too. I am ready to cull (meaning S/N or PTS) the pups if needed and really I am looking at establishing a line of workings dogs with the traits I am looking for. I do however want to breed dogs who still have the original breed characteristics that were bred for pre 1976 and stay true to the bulldog while also selecting traits and drives as it applies to working dogs. I have no breeding plans for the next few years till my pups get older and prove breed worthy but genetics can be an exciting thing if you know what your doing. BTW I will be working with a few mentors along the way, these sort of things have to be looked at from others point of view.


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

I have a dog that is father to daughter bred,probably one of the best dogs produced, has a list of titles as long as your arm but you get wayyy more culls than you do dogs like Hemi .


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## Chevys And Pitties (Jul 24, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> Now that is gross and called beastilatliy... or do you mean inbreeding your two dogs.... that post could go either way! lol :rofl:


Gosh Darnit!!! That was my fault. Should've specified lol. Gave me a good laugh, both the dogs and my son looked at me like I was crazy lol.


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> Now that is gross and called beastilatliy... or do you mean inbreeding your two dogs.... that post could go either way! lol :rofl:
> .


that was what i was thinkin... had to read that twice :rofl::rofl:


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

Bruce TGPs said:


> I have a dog that is father to daughter bred,probably one of the best dogs produced, has a list of titles as long as your arm but you get wayyy more culls than you do dogs like Hemi .


cause hemi is the  !!!!  off subject but are yall coming to the nc show?


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

My dog's family tree does not fork.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

:rofl::rofl::rofl: goes straight up? LMAO


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

circlemkennels said:


> cause hemi is the  !!!!  off subject but are yall coming to the nc show?


Have not talked about the NC show yet, going to UT and Iowa and of course we will be in Ga. and Nat. see how Notch holds up and look for Hemi to make a comeback he decided he wants to pull some more:woof:


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

Bruce TGPs said:


> That's exactly what what you get most of the time is 1 or 2 great dogs and cull the rest and i really do not mean most of the time but on the well researched and with the breeder that knows his dogs.


According to T. Garner, even though he does a lot of father/daughter and some brother sister breedings, he rarely has to cull any of the dogs.


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

circlemkennels said:


> cause hemi is the  !!!!  off subject but are yall coming to the nc show?


 We are looking at a new DOGHOUSE so we will want to put some miles on it and Hemi is back in training he decided he's not thru yet


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

Bruce TGPs said:


> Have not talked about the NC show yet, going to UT and Iowa and of course we will be in Ga. and Nat. see how Notch holds up and look for Hemi to make a comeback he decided he wants to pull some more:woof:


no worries..lol.. we will definately be in GA .. im hopin he'll show up tring to back some of that mouth up..lol Teardrop is definately ready to shut him up  (you know who im talkin about  )


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I have a dog who is from a brother x sister breeding! It's a lot more risky than breeding Mother to Son or Father to Daughter. In my dogs case she and her brother were the only surviving pups from the litter one had to be put down the rest died at birth.

Breeding is risky inbreeding, line breeding, are even more risky but can produce some outstanding results if you understand what your doing.

This is my girl Ava she is inbred very tightly and would have to be out crossed with another family of dogs if she were to ever be bred. You really can only go so tight before you start loosing desirable traits and the bad traits becoming quite obvious in the offspring that is when out crossing becomes the only solution.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175576] :: AKA X FINALE

If you look at her ped you will see how tightly bred she is .. My girl is healthy and has all her body parts LOL


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

rob32 said:


> According to T. Garner, even though he does a lot of father/daughter and some brother sister breedings, he rarely has to cull any of the dogs.


I have also seen some of his dogs that should have been culled. Some times you can get a little kennel blind and structure and health start going out the window.



Sadie said:


> I have a dog who is from a brother x sister breeding! It's a lot more risky than breeding Mother to Son or Father to Daughter. In my dogs case she and her brother were the only surviving pups from the litter one had to be put down the rest died at birth.
> 
> Breeding is risky inbreeding, line breeding, are even more risky but can produce some outstanding results if you understand what your doing.
> 
> ...


I was hoping you would come and post some peds, I was too lazy to go pull some up! lol


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

Mighty good looking bulldog, would love to see her standing, looks alot like my Boogieman pup.:clap:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah I just saw this and here is Lola's ped she is inbred too but not as tightly as Ava.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [393731] :: CHEMICAL WARFARE


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

rob32 said:


> According to T. Garner, even though he does a lot of father/daughter and some brother sister breedings, he rarely has to cull any of the dogs.


Thats what i would say too, culling is not a heavily advertised thing


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks Bruce this is AVA










ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175576] :: AKA X FINALE

The first ped

And this is my new pup Lola both are inbred

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [393731] :: CHEMICAL WARFARE


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## Bruce TGPs (Dec 24, 2010)

Sadie said:


> Thanks Bruce this is AVA
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wish i could figure out how to post pics on here but just figured out texting a few months ago, LOLA gonna be a looker


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## aprilortego (Aug 23, 2010)

Thanks for the info, I thought only BYB inbreed their dogs, I won't lie I find it a little odd for that to happen but I can understand why the breeding is done. It is true nature does not care when it comes to producing offspring. I don't think I could ever personally inbreed my dog but then again I am not a breeder nor have I ever wanted to breed. Good looking dogs by the way and glad to see no third head or anything like that lol


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## rob32 (Sep 22, 2010)

Bruce TGPs said:


> Thats what i would say too, culling is not a heavily advertised thing


Lol good point. I only asked him his opinion on it while I was picking out a pup.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Tara, never asked but trying to figure out how to read these  What up with the colors? and what is Ava's name? I can;t find her so I am assuming you have a different name that what her registered name is?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Bruce TGPs said:


> Son to mother would not be line breeding it would be inbreeding, and is very risky unless you have 2 pretty much perfect specimens then your still going to enhance every fault and would probably have to cull heavily


No mother to son and father to daughter is linebreeding. Inbreeding is only Brother/sister as that is the only breeding that will double up the exact same gene pool. Mother/son has the out side of the gene pool from the sons father or from the daughters mother in Father/daughter breedings.

My people consider mother/son inbreeding but it is not.

Whether line breeding or inbreeding you can end up with enhanced faults and enhanced desired traits, but you really need to know what you working with to have an purpose in breeding this way. I see many breeders doubling up names just for the names, but are completely dim witted to what they are doubling up genetically.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

:goodpost:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

American_Pit13 said:


> No mother to son and father to daughter is linebreeding. *Inbreeding is only Brother/sister as that is the only breeding that will double up the exact same gene pool.* Mother/son has the out side of the gene pool from the sons father or from the daughters mother in Father/daughter breedings.
> 
> My people consider mother/son inbreeding but it is not.
> 
> Whether line breeding or inbreeding you can end up with enhanced faults and enhanced desired traits, but you really need to know what you working with to have an purpose in breeding this way. I see many breeders doubling up names just for the names, but are completely dim witted to what they are doubling up genetically.


I actually disagree with this Half brother and sister can be closer genetically than brother to sister. Certain recessive genes come to the front which are more common than between some brothers and sisters.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

ames said:


> Tara, never asked but trying to figure out how to read these  What up with the colors? and what is Ava's name? I can;t find her so I am assuming you have a different name that what her registered name is?


The red and blue just identifies the main dog's that were used in that breeding the color's mean nothing else. This pedigree I posted for AVA on ped's online is for the breeding that AVA came out of. She is ADBA registered her registered name is AVA. I registered her myself because Marty did not register this litter so I did as a single registration as both her parents are already ADBA registered. Are you trying to find her on ped's online? I never put up a pedigree for her I just use the one Marty already put up for her and her brother when he did this breeding awhile back.

Edit: Sorry it took me so long to answer you I had to go back a page to see you had asked lol.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Here is Ava's brother JR.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [318845] :: ROGUE KENNELS (GAME-DOG.COM'S) AKA JR

These are the only 2 pups who survived this breeding My Ava and AKA Jr. who is now owned by Rouge Kennels.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

HAHA no worries, yeah I was looking the ped you posted under the picture, actually I look at all of them people post and cant read them. I thought they were like a family tree, but when I look I didn't see her name so I didn't know how to trace it back. Its probably better for me to do some research on it before trying to figure it out, especially not meaning to thread hijack, lol.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Sadie said:


> I actually disagree with this Half brother and sister can be closer genetically than brother to sister. Certain recessive genes come to the front which are more common than between some brothers and sisters.


A half brother and sister could be closer, but that has to do with a tighter bred background, inbreeding and putting 2 of the exact same thing together is just that.

I stated that "Inbreeding is only Brother/sister as that is the only breeding that will double up the exact same gene pool."

Only with 2 sibling are you doubling the exact same pedigree, with a half relation no matter what the pedigree differs...... I never said they couldn't be more tightly bred than a full/brother sister. It very much depends on how they are bred in the back of how tight they are. I am talking about what inbreeding is and that is putting 2 dogs of the same exact pedigree together. You take brothers and sisters and continually breed them together they will be tighter bred than any half relation bred litter.

What one person says is inbreeding and what another person says is inbreeding will always differ on whos doing the breeding.

Edit- I reposted this post as I phrased it wrong at first.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

ames said:


> Tara, never asked but trying to figure out how to read these  What up with the colors? and what is Ava's name? I can;t find her so I am assuming you have a different name that what her registered name is?


idk where her name is either. her dad is aka and her mom is finale i guess her regged name is akaxfinale XD. aka jr looks like a BEAST ava looks way different. either way both really good lookin dogs


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

stonerreakinhavok said:


> idk where her name is either. her dad is aka and her mom is finale i guess her regged name is akaxfinale XD. aka jr looks like a BEAST ava looks way different. either way both really good lookin dogs


You do not have to put her name on the pedigree online the pedigree up online is simply for the entire litter. You don't have to enter in names, registration numbers ect. All of that is up to the breeder as to wether or not they put that info online not all of them will. All you have to do is click on the parents names and you can look at all their offspring.

As far as AVA and AKA JR ... Ava is a female AKA Jr is a male so no they don't look exactly alike males are always bigger than the females. But they were identical as pups and are both the exact same color and have the same markings both look a lot like their dad AKA. I have seen all of them in person so I know LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

American_Pit13 said:


> A half brother and sister could be closer, but that has to do with a tighter bred background, inbreeding and putting 2 of the exact same thing together is just that.
> 
> I stated that "Inbreeding is only Brother/sister as that is the only breeding that will double up the exact same gene pool."
> 
> ...


Understood .. I just wanted to add because sometimes it's not always as cut and dry with genetics ... But I also wanted to say that when you inbreed basically what your doing is going as TIGHT as you can go. When you breed this way your going to find out quickly what you have good and bad all the  is going to surface LOL.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Sadie said:


> Understood .. I just wanted to add because sometimes it's not always as cut and dry with genetics ... But I also wanted to say that when you inbreed basically what your doing is going as TIGHT as you can go. When you breed this way your going to find out quickly what you have good and bad all the  is going to surface LOL.


:goodpost: Which can also be a very good breeding tool as most people only think about wanting to see the good they can produce, but knowing what crap your dogs will throw and knowing what issues a line has lets you know where to outcross and where to go with your dogs to perfect what you are breeding.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Here are a few more of AVA and her brother AKA Jr at 5 months old

aka jr on the left AVA on the right


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