# Why is the word Gameness used so much.



## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

WHY IS IS THE WORD "GAMENESS" USED SO MUCH?

The TNT dogs are pitterstaffs. They are pitbull amstaff crosses. They have proven themselves in the show ring and some working venues. IMO they look and work good. Are they Game? Who knows. Could some of them be? ..yes they could. However in my opinion, they are not gamebred dogs. The Bullies are basically overdone amstaff pit and english or olde bulldogges mixxes. By bringing in the english bull dog/Olde, it is now a real mix and the chance of any gameness zero. An AKC Amstaff is a show dog, taken directly from the pitbull, and no other breed added. Could they be game, yes, and they have been, but they are not gamebred either. 

One of the biggest things to me, is that the word GAMENESS is used too frequently for my taste. Most people truly will never know what gameness means. I ask people all the time:"how is your dog bred"? They will say:"oh, it is all game lines." How do they really know. Gameness is something special. Just because the dog is out of a few gamedogs, does not make it so. You can have linebred Boudreaux, chinaman, redboy dogs....that does not mean that you have a gamedog. All it means is you got a pitbull, until proven otherwise. 

I see so many people on here arguing about pits, amstaffs, pitterstaffs, and bullies. They say "I have a pure gamedog". It really does not matter, unless you really "know" and then you would not be on here talking about it. 

I have seen amstaffs that showed they were deeply game, and it would depress some of these people with hardcore gamedogs to see this ....However, those dog were still not gamebred. 

The vast majority of so-called gamebred pitbulls in the USA, are from non-tested pretty papered stock. Gameness is a word to be cherished not thrown around. 

Most of the people I see using the word "GAMENESS"........it boils down to their ego. I have seen so many dogs with pure pitbull pedigrees that look so pretty and fancy, so many generations away from tested stock, that they may as well own an amstaff.


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## los44 (Jun 1, 2008)

No ego here, when ever I use the term gameness its out of admiration. I agree, so many think they are above others and that's a shame imo. 


Great thread i hope others will chime in.....


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

I had to leave my answer in howards rep. not something the kids need to know haha.................


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Well thanks to the H$U$ no one can even admit to having a game dog. I don't see gameness being thrown around a lot I see a lot of talk about game dogs meaning that they come from a long line of game bred dogs or have dogs that are game close up in their ped. For instance I am looking at possible getting a dog off this guy VOLCHIHA'S SANTIAGO he then would be game bred as this dog has proven himself he is in russia so no worries on anyone braking the law. Also I would feel safe someone saying they bought a eli dog from someone saying it was game bred because many people over seas have these dogs and they have proven themselves.

Its not an ego thing so much as people who admire these dogs for what they were made to be may like to know that their dog is a apbt not a US cur dog. I know for one I want to go to AZ and do some hog hunting, i love the taste of wild hog. I sure am not gonna take a dog with lines that go to show dogs. You want a dog that will hold that pig no matter what until you get it down.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i would suggest you get a dog from proven hog hunting lines then if that's going to be its primary use


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

wheezie said:


> i would suggest you get a dog from proven hog hunting lines then if that's going to be its primary use


No not gonna be its primary use.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

I agree with the OP... the word is thrown around too often. But how do you differentiate a dog from the different lines?


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

gamer said:


> No not gonna be its primary use.


I see why your so paranoid now.............................


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Awesome post Howard I couldn't agree more. 

Game
Game bred
Game lines 

Three seperate terms with different definitions. These are terms that we bully breed owners need to know inside. If Pit Bull owners use these terms incorrectly how can we effectively educate others?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

redog said:


> I see why your so paranoid now.............................


 You do? I will be doing AADR and ADBA shows with him. Weight pull too.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

thanks for clearing that up for me. you could make that clear when you talk about these things. try to avoid unnecasary attention, ya know?


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

gamer said:


> I want to go to AZ and do some hog hunting, i love the taste of wild hog. I sure am not gonna take a dog with lines that go to show dogs. You want a dog that will hold that pig no matter what until you get it down.


Um...... Our hogs aint nuffin nice. We got javalina, of course they possess what hog hunters are looking for, a definite challenge. These guys never go far from the heard, so you gotta have a dog that calls off REAL well. I have a buddy that got his knee replaced cause he got on ticked off. I've been chased by em myself...............ALWAYS leave your windows open in the desert! LOL


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

reddoggy said:


> Um...... Our hogs aint nuffin nice. We got javalina, of course they possess what hog hunters are looking for, a definite challenge. These guys never go far from the heard, so you gotta have a dog that calls off REAL well. I have a buddy that got his knee replaced cause he got on ticked off. I've been chased by em myself...............ALWAYS leave your windows open in the desert! LOL


Yeah that is what I heard, heard they are smart too!


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

FRIGGIN smart. I have a house in Southern AZ in a small town, and they come into town right before sunrise to raid trashcans. They come in a MASSIVE heard. I've been out in the desert my whole life and have only had one GOOD experience with them and DOZENS of close calls


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

reddoggy said:


> FRIGGIN smart. I have a house in Southern AZ in a small town, and they come into town right before sunrise to raid trashcans. They come in a MASSIVE heard. I've been out in the desert my whole life and have only had one GOOD experience with them and DOZENS of close calls


OMG that's crazy we have them here too they only come into the outskirts not really in town to much but their pretty scary. We have a road right on the edge of town called Hogs Back and they run all over out there their big too.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

IMHO, "gameness" is a poorly misunderstood concept generally, even by those who try to understand it. It's stricken with ambiguity and vague references. Very confusing.

Basically what I've come to understand is that the qualities that define gameness are things such as: determination, eagerness, resilience, persistence, to a degree that allows them to seem completely ignorant to everything, pain or their own survival, but fighting the other dog. This trait is believed to be hereditary to a degree, thus the selective breeding and [] testing.

This trait is a human pursuit or creation as a trait like this in a "natural" setting would give an animal a distinct disadvantage when it came to survival. The likelihood then of that animal breeding is quite smaller relatively, and the trait would be bred out.

In all animals there is an observable desire to survive, to continue living. Pain is the prime indicator of there being a threat to that survival. The fight or flight reflex. Typically if an animal goes the fight route and then sustains substantial injuries it will attempt to flee. This is it recognizing the situation and attempting to preserve itself. Gameness, in essence, is the rewiring of these processes to the point where they are for all intents and purposes nonexistent.

The [] serves to test for this quality by subjecting the dogs to degrees of pain, injury, exhaustion, etc, that would break almost all animals and cause them to run if they had the chance. The dogs are then given the chance via the scratch. The degree to which gameness can be tested in the [] is an unnatural and unparalleled level. This is why the gameness of say a hog dog is almost impossible to compare to that of a [] proven game dog.

There is no purpose or reason for a dog to possess [] proven degrees of gameness outside of fighting other game bred dogs. IMHO, a dog cannot be truly called a game dog unless it's been [] tested. As this is illegal, and rightfully so, no dog can really be called a game dog. Game bred would be a dog who's parents were game proven and bred for the purpose of creating further game dogs. As dog fighting hasn't been legal for quite some time no dog can be truly "game bred" anymore. Game lines are game dog bloodlines, while these at a time existed, they are pretty diluted now and are little more then marketing appeal now. That's all in a rather specific, defined sense, the terms are accepted much looser then I described here.

Anyways, that's kind of the "in a nutshell" version of my understanding on the matter. Hopefully helped along some understanding on the matter for someone.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

You can still get game bred dogs if you look over seas, so dont discount game bred just yet.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

You can still get game bred dogs here in the US


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

OldFortKennels said:


> You can still get game bred dogs here in the US


This is true


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I think the word gets used so much because it is misunderstood.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

Of course there are still game bred dogs. I was speaking within the realm of the legal.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Demios said:


> Of course there are still game bred dogs. I was speaking within the realm of the legal.


yeah if you get one from over seas no laws need to be broken.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

Thought I'd mentioned the whole exceptions to every rule thing, foreign sources, etc, in my OP but on rereading noticed I omitted it. Oh well. Yeah, if you want one, you can get one. As far as North American domestic game dogs go, they're the byproduct of illegal activity. It's very difficult to breed game proven dogs within North America unless you're importing all your breeding stock after they've done their go in the []. In this sense, the game bred APBT is a dying breed.

Furthermore, there is no use or need for these dogs outside of fighting. Regardless of the legality of it, I do not support dog fighting for a large number of reasons. Unless you plan on participating in fighting there is really no point seeking one out. While one can argue, "this is what the true APBT is, game bred, and I am proud I can say I own one," that's all good and fine but really doesn't say much for the pup but a lot for the parents. The dog won't ever prove itself game, won't ever require to exercise that excessive level of game, and just because the parents were game doesn't mean the pup is, so you might as well just get an APBT with a good pedigree as it's in essence the same thing.

But anyways yeah, game dogs exist, and they pop out puppies, happens all over the world, and if you're so inclined and have the hook ups, you can get one of their pups, call it game bred, and feel fulfilled.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Demios said:


> Thought I'd mentioned the whole exceptions to every rule thing, foreign sources, etc, in my OP but on rereading noticed I omitted it. Oh well. Yeah, if you want one, you can get one. As far as North American domestic game dogs go, they're the byproduct of illegal activity. It's very difficult to breed game proven dogs within North America unless you're importing all your breeding stock after they've done their go in the []. In this sense, the game bred APBT is a dying breed.
> 
> Furthermore, there is no use or need for these dogs outside of fighting. Regardless of the legality of it, I do not support dog fighting for a large number of reasons. Unless you plan on participating in fighting there is really no point seeking one out. While one can argue, "this is what the true APBT is, game bred, and I am proud I can say I own one," that's all good and fine but really doesn't say much for the pup but a lot for the parents. The dog won't ever prove itself game, won't ever require to exercise that excessive level of game, and just because the parents were game doesn't mean the pup is, so you might as well just get an APBT with a good pedigree as it's in essence the same thing.
> 
> But anyways yeah, game dogs exist, and they pop out puppies, happens all over the world, and if you're so inclined and have the hook ups, you can get one of their pups, call it game bred, and feel fulfilled.


 No need to ask someone why they want a game bred pup, why do people not ask someone why they want a show bred pitterstaff or a big ole blue mastiff/pit cross. We like what we like and the game dog will not die off. I would bet the other forms of this dog will die off before the game bred dog.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

Didn't ask why, I can see why people would want one. All I'm saying is in the end, it amounts to nothing really, as it's not going to see the [].

Oh and the dying breed thing wasn't meant in such a literal sense, my bad on the wording there.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Just for the record a long time ago I tried the whole UKC pit bull thing because I was told it was so fun.. It was the most miserable experience in my life. The people were stuffy and if your dog didnt have a big name behind it you lost. I had a nice little Lar San dog and the judge asked everyone ot look at her and went on to explain this is how a pit bull should look that she was a very correct little bitch then proceeded to pick a 70 pound female and my dog lost. People take their ribbons and run to their cliques. 

AADR I had a dog place second the winner came over and congratulate dme and told me (the same thing the judge did) that my dog should have won but was not conditioned enough. He then proceeded to tell me how he conditioned his dogs. It is a whole different world and I would never go UKC again, unless i take my new dog just to see  I like the shock factor.
:woof:


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Howardsperformancek9 said:


> WHY IS IS THE WORD "GAMENESS" USED SO MUCH?
> 
> The TNT dogs are pitterstaffs. They are pitbull amstaff crosses. They have proven themselves in the show ring and some working venues. IMO they look and work good. Are they Game? Who knows. Could some of them be? ..yes they could. However in my opinion, they are not gamebred dogs. The Bullies are basically overdone amstaff pit and english or olde bulldogges mixxes. By bringing in the english bull dog/Olde, it is now a real mix and the chance of any gameness zero. An AKC Amstaff is a show dog, taken directly from the pitbull, and no other breed added. Could they be game, yes, and they have been, but they are not gamebred either.
> 
> ...


Great topic. Great points.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Demios said:


> Thought I'd mentioned the whole exceptions to every rule thing, foreign sources, etc, in my OP but on rereading noticed I omitted it. Oh well. Yeah, if you want one, you can get one. As far as North American domestic game dogs go, they're the byproduct of illegal activity. It's very difficult to breed game proven dogs within North America unless you're importing all your breeding stock after they've done their go in the []. In this sense, the game bred APBT is a dying breed.
> 
> Furthermore, there is no use or need for these dogs outside of fighting. Regardless of the legality of it, I do not support dog fighting for a large number of reasons. Unless you plan on participating in fighting there is really no point seeking one out. While one can argue, "this is what the true APBT is, game bred, and I am proud I can say I own one," that's all good and fine but really doesn't say much for the pup but a lot for the parents. The dog won't ever prove itself game, won't ever require to exercise that excessive level of game, and just because the parents were game doesn't mean the pup is, so you might as well just get an APBT with a good pedigree as it's in essence the same thing.
> 
> But anyways yeah, game dogs exist, and they pop out puppies, happens all over the world, and if you're so inclined and have the hook ups, you can get one of their pups, call it game bred, and feel fulfilled.


Proving a dog is not necessary. Some do, some don't. Keeping a gamebred dog does not obligate you to match your dog. The same way owning a 
Corvette does not obligate you to drive fast. I'm sure we've all got a few things we don't need.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I really think the problem is when people use game when they should be saying driven.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

buzhunter said:


> Proving a dog is not necessary. Some do, some don't. Keeping a gamebred dog does not obligate you to match your dog. The same way owning a
> Corvette does not obligate you to drive fast. I'm sure we've all got a few things we don't need.


Exactly. Sorry if you got any impression that I didn't think the same. I'm basically saying if you get a corvette and it's never done anything faster than your mom's camry, you might as well have got a camry that looks like a corvette.

Bragging rights mean something to some people though and to each their own.


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## money_killer (Apr 14, 2008)

IMO i think the word gameness is misunderstood these days, as everyone has there own meaning or take on the word

eg. i know wat the word actually means and the history, but if i use it in this day my mean is gameness - the tuffness or drive of the dog


aaron


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> Of course there are still game bred dogs. I was speaking within the realm of the legal.


Again people are confusing words. You can buy a gamebred all day long in the US LEGALLY!!!! What you cant buy legally is a proven "game" dog.


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## PatienceFlame (Dec 22, 2009)

OldFortKennels said:


> Again people are confusing words. You can buy a gamebred all day long in the US LEGALLY!!!! What you cant buy legally is a proven "game" dog.


:goodpost:


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## starlitparlit (Oct 14, 2005)

OldFortKennels said:


> Again people are confusing words. You can buy a gamebred all day long in the US LEGALLY!!!! What you cant buy legally is a proven "game" dog.


Yep, you've got that right.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Demios said:


> Exactly. Sorry if you got any impression that I didn't think the same. I'm basically saying if you get a corvette and it's never done anything faster than your mom's camry, you might as well have got a camry that looks like a corvette.
> 
> Bragging rights mean something to some people though and to each their own.


My mom drives a Maxima. Show 'n Go lmao. It will eat a Camry and a lot of Mustangs but it's no Vette.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

OldFortKennels said:


> Again people are confusing words. You can buy a gamebred all day long in the US LEGALLY!!!! What you cant buy legally is a proven "game" dog.


Seems as though I've confused you, my apologies. You can buy whatever dog you want legally so long as it's not banned within your region. You can even get dogs that have been born, raised, and game proven all in the USofA. If you didn't personally game test them, you've done nothing illegal. You can get imported game proven dogs, hell if you want you can ship your dog off, get it game proven, and then ship it back. There's a ton you can do.

What I was saying is that within the realm of legal, and within the realm of the Americas where dog fighting is illegal, and with my definitions and usages of the terms, a dog cannot be game proven. Therefore, if a dog can't be game proven, you can't create a game bred litter as far as I'm concerned. You take game proven dogs, you breed them for the purpose of creating more game dogs, this litter then is game bred. As you can't game prove dogs in the states, you can't create a game bred litter. Now, your dog may have Chinaman and Tornado in their pedigrees, that's cool, but it doesn't make them game bred. They simply have ancestors that were game proven.

This clearer?

Edit: Should clarify, the requirements I place on the application of "game" related terms are far more strict than the status quo which is basically the topic of the thread, people's leisurely use of the terms. So in this sense, unless at least one of the parents are game proven, I will not label a litter as game bred. This is, for the most part, quite different from most people's use of the term where I've heard game bred thrown around left and right.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> What I was saying is that within the realm of legal, and within the realm of the Americas where dog fighting is illegal, and with my definitions and usages of the terms, a dog cannot be game proven. Therefore, if a dog can't be game proven, you can't create a game bred litter as far as I'm concerned. You take game proven dogs, you breed them for the purpose of creating more game dogs, this litter then is game bred. As you can't game prove dogs in the states, you can't create a game bred litter. Now, your dog may have Chinaman and Tornado in their pedigrees, that's cool, but it doesn't make them game bred. They simply have ancestors that were game proven.


Thank you for proving what I was saying earlier, a misuse of words. I obviously know what I am talking about,while apparently you are still confused. The problem could lie in the fact that while trying to talk like you know what you are saying, you are going in circles and confusing your own self.

let me make it simple for you.

BY DEFINITION of the WORD gamebred--

Game proven sire x game proven Dam = GAMEBRED litter. That was easy.....also legally attainable in the US.

you can use whatever interpretation of gamebred that you like, the fact of the matter is that linebred game dogs = gamebred litter. May not be your definition but that is the definition of the word. Just because I call a bluebird a blackbird doesnt make it so. My interpretaion of what is does not matter, only what the standard says it is.

By the way I am aware of all that you can do with these dogs


> You can get imported game proven dogs, hell if you want you can ship your dog off, get it game proven, and then ship it back. There's a ton you can do.


GRCH Macho Buck for example


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

The whole reason dogs were testedand rolled was to find out if a gamebred pup/dog was indeed game or not.

Gamebred simply means that it is bred to be game, it has the gentetics and pedigree to be game. The next step is to prove that dog, two different things


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

OldFortKennels said:


> Thank you for proving what I was saying earlier, a misuse of words. I obviously know what I am talking about,while apparently you are still confused. The problem could lie in the fact that while trying to talk like you know what you are saying, you are going in circles and confusing your own self.


It's quite possible, as right now I am quite aware that I'm confused about one thing, that is your allegation of the misuse of the terms. The reason I'm confused is that...


OldFortKennels said:


> let me make it simple for you.
> 
> BY DEFINITION of the WORD gamebred--
> 
> Game *proven* sire x game *proven* Dam *=* GAMEBRED litter. That was easy.....also legally attainable in the US.


Isn't this exactly what I was just saying?  I completely agree. So I guess my question is where are all these game proven dogs for all these gamebred litters you speak of coming from? Then I read the next paragraph and I'm confused more:


OldFortKennel said:


> you can use whatever interpretation of gamebred that you like, the fact of the matter is that linebred game dogs = gamebred litter. May not be your definition but that is the definition of the word. Just because I call a bluebird a blackbird doesnt make it so. My interpretaion of what is does not matter, only what the standard says it is.


This is a different definition than the one you just outlined? Here it seems like you're saying:

Descendant of a game proven dog sire x descendant of a game proven dog dam = gamebred litter

Which isn't the same as game *proven* sire x game *proven* dam = gamebred litter

Guess it wasn't as simple and easy as thought. I'm still needing some clarification.


OldFortKennels said:


> The whole reason dogs were testedand rolled was to find out if a gamebred pup/dog was indeed game or not.
> 
> Gamebred simply means that it is bred to be game, it has the gentetics and pedigree to be game. The next step is to prove that dog, two different things


And if they didn't pass the test of the pit they were culled from the program in order to maintain the quality of the genetics. Now that the pit test is illegal, the quality of the genetics cannot be upheld.

Like you said, just because a dog is gamebred doesn't necessarily mean it is game itself. Thus there is the test of the pit. Without this test, inferior genetics can be bred easily. Thus the lines are "diluted" over time due to the lack of standard testing to determine breeding stock. Simply if the dog is a descendant of a game proven dog it's registered and bred. Dogs that'd be culled in the past now make "gamebred" litters.

This is why I hold true to your original "simple and easy" formula in the labelling of a gamebred litter. That is that if the sire and dam are game *proven*, the litter is gamebred. I don't accomodate the compromise you proposed in the following paragraph that led to the revision of the formula. If the dam and sire are descendants of game dogs themselves, but not game proven, that their litter is gamebred. I realize that many many people do make this accommodation and I have said this before in previous posts. If it's your prerogative to use that definition, then all the more power to you. This would be one of the contributing factors to the abundant use of the term "gameness" that the OP was originally having a problem with.

I make a distinction between pups from the descendants of game proven dogs and pups from actual game proven dogs, as it was the difference between the two that was the reason for the pit as far as breeding is concerned. If your still using the definition that a game proven sire x game proven dam = a gamebred litter then I totally agree with you. I've never said you should make the acknowledgment I do, it's always been as far as I'm concerned, just my opinion. Thought I made that clear.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

What we are arguing about is your definition of gamebred. I gave two definitions, yours and the one the rest of the world goes by, either one are legally obtainable in the US.

Game proven x game proven is legally obtainable.Sorry but I should have said, if its in the pedigree, it does not have to be first generation. By the way, this DEFINITELY does not guarantee the litter is game. I am aware you do know this, just stating it. So why would you consider this type breeding to be gambred over a linebred game litter. The odds are not exponentially better for proven x proven litter. IT has been done time and time again and litters culled left and right. Some of your better GAME producers were not high end box winners.



> This is why I hold true to your original "simple and easy" formula in the labelling of a gamebred litter. That is that if the sire and dam are game proven, the litter is gamebred. I don't accomodate the compromise you proposed in the following paragraph that led to the revision of the formula. If the dam and sire are descendants of game dogs themselves, but not game proven, that their litter is gamebred.


The real deffiniton of gamebred-- A litter of dogs bred to be game...Easily attainable. IT really does not matter what you "accomodate" as definition. The definition is what it is.

Proving the pups is a different issue and not what we are arguing about.


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## Demios (Jan 9, 2010)

OldFortKennels said:


> What we are arguing about is your definition of gamebred. I gave two definitions, yours and the one the rest of the world goes by, either one are legally obtainable in the US.


You really should try to be clearer because when I read what you said, that is "let me make it simple for you. BY DEFINITION of the WORD gamebred" It didn't really give me the idea that this is my definition you're talking about. Infact it sort of goes out of it's way to imply that I'm wrong and just not getting it and that you're educating my slowminded self on the definition of the word and are giving me the definition of the word. The use of the capital letters really kind of drove that home. So when you then say exactly what I was saying I was like what the???

And yeah the legally obtainable stuff we've gone over. You can get them. The point I was attempting to illustrate with that reference is completely lost and irrelevant now so I'm not even really concerned in it anymore.



OldFortKennels said:


> Game proven x game proven is legally obtainable.Sorry but I should have said, if its in the pedigree, it does not have to be first generation. By the way, this DEFINITELY does not guarantee the litter is game. I am aware you do know this, just stating it. So why would you consider this type breeding to be gambred over a linebred game litter. The odds are not exponentially better for proven x proven litter. IT has been done time and time again and litters culled left and right. Some of your better GAME producers were not high end box winners.


And some high end box winners weren't necessarily the most game. I'd call a linebred game litter a linebred game litter, and I'd call a gamebred litter a gamebred litter. The reason being the terms historical significance, the context within which it was originally used, the selective breeding our breed went through based off it, etc. Like Howard said:


> The vast majority of so-called gamebred pitbulls in the USA, are from non-tested pretty papered stock. Gameness is a word to be cherished not thrown around.
> 
> Most of the people I see using the word "GAMENESS"........it boils down to their ego. I have seen so many dogs with pure pitbull pedigrees that look so pretty and fancy, so many generations away from tested stock, that they may as well own an amstaff.


I have to say I agree with this. And a lot of people will refer to litters like this as gamebred. That's fine, I don't have a problem with it if you do, as you seem to have a problem with me choosing not to. To me the gamebred then means a litter that's came from proven game, meant to create further proven game, for the purpose of breeding further gamedogs. The whole purpose of the breeding program is centered around game. Linebreeding proven game dogs from 2,3,4 generations past, isn't centered around game, it's centered around producing puppies from dogs that had proven themselves in the past. I'm not saying they're not going to be game, or that the litter will be far shorter in game dogs then from game proven x game proven, or anything like that.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> Linebreeding proven game dogs from 2,3,4 generations past, isn't centered around game, it's centered around producing puppies from dogs that had proven themselves in the past.


I agree with this, however I still believe the litter to be a gamebred litter. Weather the pups are game or not has to still be determined.

And your right, I did get the explanation a little screwed up!


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## Skank (Feb 11, 2010)

Well i should stay out of this but yall know me i been drinken so i am gone put my two cents in 
game breed or game don't count for much i have not saw a post about a DEAD game or proven game dog game is not a dirty word i just think most ppl don't understand what game is for a dog to be truely game by the Old timers standers takes alot but we dont live in the world they did No one with half a brain roll,scratches or bumps there dogs anymore so peds are what most ppl go by but even the best dogmen of the past breed dogs that where cures so even if you have a dog out of two nine time winner's that will never make them dead game every dog would have to prove it's self the best we can do is hog hunt (that is being outlawed in the south east now) and weight pull and i am sure that is next on peta and the hsus list of thing to ban since BSL isnt working for them


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

My thing is you get alot of people that talk about having "game bred" dogs. Not totally that they are game, but game bred.
To me that is to different things....

Game bred to me just means they come from dogs that are already proven game, does not mean what you bought will be
Game to me means already proven, there are not many ways to prove your dog is game except for hunting and rolling.
I think hog hunting would be the best way. Hogs are a whole different story then taking on another dog IMO!


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

MetalGirl30 said:


> My thing is you get alot of people that talk about having "game bred" dogs. Not totally that they are game, but game bred.
> To me that is to different things....
> 
> Game bred to me just means they come from dogs that are already proven game, does not mean what you bought will be
> ...


Yeah hogs and dogs are two different things and Hogs cant punish a dog to the degree another game dog can. Sure it can kill the dog pretty quick but that defeats the purpose.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I agree that is why I do not think hog hunting is necessarily a replacement for the [] when trying to determine gameness. While it can get brutal and those hog can really be dangerous and rank, it is still a prey animal. Prey animals are fight or flight. Fight is survival drive way different than the []. JMO


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Demios said:


> IMHO, "gameness" is a poorly misunderstood concept generally, even by those who try to understand it. It's stricken with ambiguity and vague references. Very confusing.
> 
> Basically what I've come to understand is that the qualities that define gameness are things such as: determination, eagerness, resilience, persistence, to a degree that allows them to seem completely ignorant to everything, pain or their own survival, but fighting the other dog. This trait is believed to be hereditary to a degree, thus the selective breeding and [] testing.
> 
> ...


 You're ignoring a few things in the above , though you do have a basic understanding of the trait. Firstly true gamebred dogs are still around if you know where to go to get one , secondly it's NOT illegal to own a gamebred dog.

And the biggie , thirdly the APBT has no monopoly on the trait , almost ALL actual working terriers i.e. hunting bloodline JRTs , JagDTerriers and Patterdales ( Black Fells Terriers ) are ALL bred for extreme levels of gameness , the closest I *ever* saw to a 'deadgame' dogs ( deadgame by definition being DEAD , and thus depriving the given breed of the genetic potential of passing on the trait) was Riviota's 'Noah' , a now famous Patterdale within the breed , he was put down a rocky earth after the '**** and the situation developed where they had to dig to him ( common with working Patterdales) three and one half hours later they finally got to him and Noah , a 14 lb dog was still in grips with a now very dead 26 lb '**** , he was so far gone that Tony had to go through the ribcage with a cardiac needle and inject epinephrine straight into the heart to save him. THAT is a game dog , and they never hunted him again , and if you pushed on the subject Tony would look at you and say ' that dogs has proven everything he ever needs to prove to anybody. Now shut up".

In addition the hound that will run a track until his heart gives out , the Chessie that will DIE in freezing water rather than give up the attempt to bring that goose back , the Border Collie or Kelpie that starts with you at dawn of a freezing , icy spring lambing day and wears their paws bloody and is still at it at dark , ALL these examples exhibit a task specific degree of gameness.

Unyielding spirit , never say die drive for the specific task , willingness to to take their deaths in performance of the task , THOSE are 'game ' dogs.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Demios said:


> Of course there are still game bred dogs. I was speaking within the realm of the legal.


 Spare us , ok? Because it's not illegal to own ,purchase or keep a 'gamebred' dog , it's merely illegal to prove a dog 'game'... and in point of fact it's not illegal to purchase or possess a proven dog and have it sleeping on your bed at night.

Don't bother argueing the point with me , I've been around game and gamebred dogs all my life. And I'm old , curmudgeonly and cynical.

OldDog1


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Demios said:


> Furthermore, there is no use or need for these dogs outside of fighting. you can get one of their pups, call it game bred, and feel fulfilled.


 Oh REALLY? Judgemental much are you? Been to an AADR/ADBA show have you? Wow so I've just been indulging a figment of my imagination for the last 30 plus years? I can't show or weightpull a gamebred or game dog?

Gee I'll have to inform a whole slew of folks that are doing so , thanks for the news.

OldDog1


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

OldFortKennels said:


> Thank you for proving what I was saying earlier, a misuse of words. I obviously know what I am talking about,while apparently you are still confused. The problem could lie in the fact that while trying to talk like you know what you are saying, you are going in circles and confusing your own self.
> 
> let me make it simple for you.
> 
> ...


 PLUSSSS ABOUT A MILLION to the above. And a further analogy , I own and ride on the street a bikes that has run 190.863 against the 192.254 SCTA P/P1000 record at El Mirage and 189.620 at Bonneville. I don't feel the need to exercise that potential on the street.

Get that folks? Some people here are coming dangerously close to outright accusations based solely upon the pedigree of a canine one chooses to keep.

Along with the thinly veiled ' you're just doing it for your ego' , nope folks who fancy the gamebred dogs aren't doing it for their egos , some of us just happen to like that segment of the dogs.

And when I state thirty plus years I'm only counting from the age of majority , I've been around them since childhood when I first encountered them as a dog-crazy kid and ended up feeding and scooping for a couple of notable old-timers.

I tell nobody what to feed on their own yard , they can keep what they want , I expect extension of the same courtesy without oblique accusation and rhetorical innuendo.

Additionally , those who are willing to sacrifice the gamebred dogs to the onslaught of the legislative and sociopolitical juggernaut best look at their pedigrees and ask how far back they're willing to allow that to go , because you can find 'fighting dogs' in the pedigree of *EVERY* single one of 'em if you go far enough back.

OldDog1


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

MetalGirl30 said:


> My thing is you get alot of people that talk about having "game bred" dogs. Not totally that they are game, but game bred.
> To me that is to different things....
> 
> Game bred to me just means they come from dogs that are already proven game, does not mean what you bought will be
> ...


 Hog hunting doesn't prove your dog game , it merely proves that it will go after and catch a hog. If I really need to go into the whys and wherefores I will and I've hunted hogs in this country quite literally from coast to coast.It's a passion with me , though nowadays I much prefer spot and stalk with a handgun to hunting with dogs.

And the gamebred APBT is overall a less than efficient hoghunting dog , they're on average too small and gameness never factors in when the dog is willing to fight the hog too quickly prior to the other catch dogs getting up with it and the hog guts the dog or breaks it down and kills it in a matter of seconds.

And don't bother telling *me* that any 90 lb APBT catch dog is 'gamebred' true 'gamebred' dogs don't come that big and *never* have.

OldDog1


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## Howardsperformancek9 (Feb 11, 2009)

OLDDOG: "And don't bother telling *me* that any 90 lb APBT catch dog is 'gamebred' true 'gamebred' dogs don't come that big and *never* have." 



+++AMEN+++


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## 10616 (Oct 18, 2009)

................


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Well, if your intention was to prove your ignorance, you've succeeded.


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

buzhunter said:


> Well, if your intention was to prove your ignorance, you've succeeded.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Mcleod15 (Jul 17, 2009)

pesifik_oshen said:


> Anyone that feels the need to mention that their dog is game, or gamebred, or from game lines loses all credibility in my opinion. Take it as a sign they are new to the block and do not know enough to be an authority on the dogs. Its similar to a so-called gangster saying "Yo I've got street cred! Recognize!" ...please!
> 
> Just my .02.....


Well there are a lot of good knowledgable/exprienced/well known/many people on this board/ dogmen-dogwomen that would lose all credibility to you.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I believe most people with true game bred dogs are not advertising it online.


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## 10616 (Oct 18, 2009)

.............


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Was directed right at you, buddy. You care to elaborate?


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## 10616 (Oct 18, 2009)

................


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## 10616 (Oct 18, 2009)

..............


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Wow.
So you must roll your eyes when people mention their engine size. I mean, if youre on a car forum and somebody mentions that they have a mustang and what year it is, it would be ignorant of them to say they have a 5.0 huh? ......cause that's up for you to decide. 
I'm gonna have to agree with BuzHunter on this one. Saying a dog is gamebred is not an issue, it's not illegal or shameful to own a high caliber dog, bred down from the best. 
As for game, well, nobody here tests their dogs, dog fighting is illegal.


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## 10616 (Oct 18, 2009)

.............


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Analogy
NOUN:
pl. a·nal·o·gies

1.
1. Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.


Come on man, I couldn't have painted a better picture. There's no need to act silly.


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## 10616 (Oct 18, 2009)

...........


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

If you can't relate an APBT to a bad*** car, then you have no experience with a game bred dog. Further more, you ARE being silly. Fact is, more was said in that post than just the car analogy and you seem to be focused on calling me out for an analogy that you disagree with. You asked to be schooled and you got it..........but it turned out you really didn't want it in the first place.
So lemme spell it out for you. Car=dog Engine=what powers it, being lineage.
A well bred, game bred dog is something with a lot of drive, energy, and power.... Something that a lot of people don't understand because that's not what they are used to handling(driving).
I am in no way insulting petbulls, they have drive for days and have the muscle in em too, just not the same dog.


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## 10616 (Oct 18, 2009)

............


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Sure, PO. If you're so simple minded to associate gamebred dogs or their enthusiasts with nothing more than wanna-be ghetto stars, than it's you who is in need of an education. These dogs have been around far longer than this glorified "hood life" mentality has and so have their admirers. Not much more than "street cred" makes me want to puke and you're going to come on here and insult this board with such an absurd generalization? If you're here to learn, then why not shut up and do so?


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## 10616 (Oct 18, 2009)

...........


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

You believe that referring to a dog as gamebred is ignorant. Meaning, anyone who tells someone that they have a game bred dog is ignorant, thus calling some of us ignorant. 
If you feel free enough to voice your opinion then feel free to be opposed as well.


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## Skank (Feb 11, 2010)

well i must one dumb hillbilly ******* wtf ever then if this dog isnt game breed 
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [163933] :: CHOCOLATE TAI

when BUZ tells you something you should take notes


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

pesifik_oshen said:


> "If you're so simple minded to associate gamebred dogs or their enthusiasts with nothing more than wanna-be ghetto stars"
> 
> In all honesty, you totally missed the point that I was trying to make in my original post. Plain and simple. I have no idea why you have so much animosity toward me. You can create all the drama that you want, and take it for what its worth, but seriously, you took it the wrong way. Plain and simple.


Ya, maybe. Read like a troll post to me. I do, however agree with your explanation to a certain degree. Should have put all that in the original post.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

pesifik_oshen said:


> Anyone that feels the need to mention that their dog is game, or gamebred, or from game lines loses all credibility in my opinion. Take it as a sign they are new to the block and do not know enough to be an authority on the dogs. Its similar to a so-called gangster saying "Yo I've got street cred! Recognize!" ...please!
> 
> Just my .02.....


I have several gamebred dogs and just bred a litter of gamebred dogs so that makes me want street cred? reading your posts I can see you have no real clue what your talking about or your trolling for trouble.
You still have no explained your point of view on this. So why is owning a gamebred dog a bad thing?


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> I have several gamebred dogs and just bred a litter of gamebred dogs so that makes me want street cred? reading your posts I can see you have no real clue what your talking about or your trolling for trouble.
> You still have no explained your point of view on this. *So why is owning a gamebred dog a bad thing?*


Because people want the big bad pit bull to make them look tough but are trying to morph them into something they have never been a dog you can take to the dog park so you can look cool and still have a lab


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

gamer said:


> Because people want the big bad pit bull to make them look tough but are trying to morph them into something they have never been a dog you can take to the dog park so you can look cool and still have a lab


Was that a shot at bullies? I don't see how that would even fit into this convo


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

reddoggy said:


> Was that a shot at bullies? I don't see how that would even fit into this convo


No it was in response to performanceknls question


> So why is owning a gamebred dog a bad thing?


 it was referring to these people who get the breed and try to breed the dog aggression out, they want the Lab temperament but still want to be seen with a pit bull so they look cool. I used Big Bad as in Big Bad Wolf not big as in bully.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

I dunno, I don't think I've seen anyone wanna be cool by owning a non-DA pit bull before. I see people breeding pet quality all the time, but I think a majority of those times the buyer may be uneducated on the topic


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## gamer (Feb 1, 2010)

reddoggy said:


> I dunno, I don't think I've seen anyone wanna be cool by owning a non-DA pit bull before. I see people breeding pet quality all the time, but I think a majority of those times the buyer may be uneducated on the topic


Hmm I have seen a lot of people who want to own a pit bull to be cool, maybe it is an area thing I dont know.


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## chiakong (Sep 21, 2009)

to me, a gamebred dog comes from a line of proven game box dogs...chances are your dog will be more game than dogs that don't come from such background, but of course this is no guarantee and there are game dogs that come from unknown backgrounds...

i prefer a dog with a game line, whether I chose to test it or not, because it remains closest to what I know the APBT to be, a proven [] dog


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## 10616 (Oct 18, 2009)

..........


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## APBTHAUS (Mar 3, 2010)

Man..... some bully owners are a little touchy huh? lol How can a bully have "gameness" ? I am unaware of people fighting these dogs(though I'm sure it happens somewhere). And BTW stop giving people a bad "rep" for simply disagreeing with you. Grow up buddies


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

would you consider this a bully? Or are u making a ignorant preception of what bullies are.


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## APBTHAUS (Mar 3, 2010)

vdubbinya said:


> would you consider this a bully? Or are u making a ignorant preception of what bullies are.


That doesn't look like a typical bully to me. Looks more like a AMstaff. Please explain to me how I have been ignorant. For the record perceptions are just that, perceptions....You know what people "perceive", meaning how they interpret or see something from their given point of view.
Example: My perception of your baby is that it is ugly.
Your perception would most likely be that they are the cutest baby of all time.
Get it now? P-E-R-C-E-P-T-I-O-N
FYI: I have seen tons of bullies and know what they look like.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

wow, i had a typo error, your cool. And for your information, that's 100% bully, ignorance. And there's about 1 million exactly like that, its called classic, so dont lump all your chickens together b4 they hatch.


and what happens with a typo error, is someone accidently hits a key b4 the other one, kinda like this 
EX. PRECEPTION
PERCEPTION
did you notice how close of a resemblance there was. Are you a grammer teacher? Or are u just showing your ignorance once more.


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## APBTHAUS (Mar 3, 2010)

vdubbinya said:


> wow, i had a typo error, your cool. And for your information, that's 100% bully, ignorance. And there's about 1 million exactly like that, its called classic, so dont lump all your chickens together b4 they hatch.


Okay listen up buddy.....I wasn't picking on your spelling. If you re-read my post I was pointing out the word you choose to use and just so happened to spell wrong, but that's besides the point. Lets take another look shall we? A perception is individualistic like an opinion. Now, that's like saying that you don't like my opinion in turn I'm ignorant.Riiiiight buddy.... I'M THE IGNORANT ONE LMAO. That is the kind of closed mindedness that helps perpetuate stereotypes guy.


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

how do you not get that sentence? wow. your worst off than i thought. YOU PERCEIVE TO THINK ALL BULLIES ARE FAT SLOPPY DOGS AND THEIR NOT. that better?


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## vdubbinya (Oct 8, 2008)

-noun
*1.the act or faculty of apprehending by means of the senses or of the mind; cognition; understanding.* 
2.immediate or intuitive recognition or appreciation, as of moral, psychological, or aesthetic qualities; insight; intuition; discernment: an artist of rare perception. 
3.the result or product of perceiving, as distinguished from the act of perceiving; percept. 
4.Psychology. a single unified awareness derived from sensory processes while a stimulus is present. 
5.Law. the taking into possession of rents, crops, profits, etc

read that, smart***


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Okay you guys, if y'all wanna bicker, take it to the VIP room. Little birdy told me that some mods aren't tolerating much today.


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