# Dr. Phil on now about dog fighting



## 9361

Dr. Phil is on right now talking about dog fighting with a dog fighter.


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## Aireal

I'm at work what is he saying?


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## Black Rabbit

It doesn't come on here for 2 more hours. What's the story??????


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## william williamson

like dog fighter from the 70's when they were culled,put in keep for 6 weeks,and cared for.
when only a proven game dog ended up in the pit.
or onea them that fight any old dog,in any old place,at any old time.
agressive to people,on steroids or gun powder?
he should put an old dog man to debate onea these nowaday punks.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

william williamson said:


> like dog fighter from the 70's when they were culled,put in keep for 6 weeks,and cared for.
> when only a proven game dog ended up in the pit.
> or onea them that fight any old dog,in any old place,at any old time.
> agressive to people,on steroids or gun powder?
> he should put an old dog man to debate onea these nowaday punks.


I'm curious about that too... I'm sure it's just a punk from todays generation.


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## Firehazard

william williamson said:


> like dog fighter from the 70's when they were culled,put in keep for 6 weeks,and cared for.
> when only a proven game dog ended up in the pit.
> or onea them that fight any old dog,in any old place,at any old time.
> agressive to people,on steroids or gun powder?
> he should put an old dog man to debate onea these nowaday punks.


Thats for sure  :goodpost: you can't have anyone up there that will make sense in the media hype... Why would Dr phil have a dogfighter on there unless he was ruthless and cold??


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## 9361

Actually the dog fighter seemed pretty legit about fighting dogs. He talked about how in the 70's there were more organized fights like he does or at least did before he was convicted. They brought on the crew from the show Rescue Ink and everyone ganged up on the one guy. The guys on Rescue ink brought up bait dogs and how people tape or wire their mouths shut so they can't fight back. And the dog fighter commented that he didn't know anyone who did that and no one he knows who fights would ever do that. So they went on the make the comment of "yeah right" 

He talked about how he didn't fight his dogs til the age of 2 when they were tested. They showed a video of a dog who was being tested that was pretty much screaming. The dog fighter said that it was his first time in the ring and he was scared. But Dr.Phil was arguing that the dog was in pain and it was cruel. The dog fighter was arguing back that he was testing the dog to see if he was going to be a good fighter or not and he didn't force any dogs to fight. They went on to talk about how he conditioned the dogs, he said he made them swim for 15 to 20 mins and did treadmill and something about weight exercise that I missed out on halfway because I was in the other room. But I think he was talking about backpacking putting a 1 or 2lbs weight in a pack on the dogs back. Dr. Phil considered all of this cruel and the audience was gasping in shock... especially about "forcing" the dogs to swim....

Oh he also said he has killed hundreds of dogs in his life time that were hurt and was not someone who would let an animal suffer or die from starvation and his dogs were well cared for. He said killing who could not be helped was the humane thing to do, a bullet in the head to put them down quick and clean. Dr. Phil said this was cruel and he said it was no more cruel than the shelters euthanizing 1,000 healthy dogs a month in his own county.


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## 9361

I found this on youtube so far... guess its a repeat...


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## Firehazard

Shes Got Heart said:


> Actually the dog fighter seemed pretty legit about fighting dogs. He talked about how in the 70's there were more organized fights like he does or at least did before he was convicted. They brought on the crew from the show Rescue Ink and everyone ganged up on the one guy. The guys on Rescue ink brought up bait dogs and how people tape or wire their mouths shut so they can't fight back. And the dog fighter commented that he didn't know anyone who did that and no one he knows who fights would ever do that. So they went on the make the comment of "yeah right"
> 
> He talked about how he didn't fight his dogs til the age of 2 when they were tested. They showed a video of a dog who was being tested that was pretty much screaming. The dog fighter said that it was his first time in the ring and he was scared. But Dr.Phil was arguing that the dog was in pain and it was cruel. The dog fighter was arguing back that he was testing the dog to see if he was going to be a good fighter or not and he didn't force any dogs to fight. They went on to talk about how he conditioned the dogs, he said he made them swim for 15 to 20 mins and did treadmill and something about weight exercise that I missed out on halfway because I was in the other room. But I think he was talking about backpacking putting a 1 or 2lbs weight in a pack on the dogs back. Dr. Phil considered all of this cruel and the audience was gasping in shock... especially about "forcing" the dogs to swim....
> 
> Oh he also said he has killed hundreds of dogs in his life time that were hurt and was not someone who would let an animal suffer or die from starvation and his dogs were well cared for. He said killing who could not be helped was the humane thing to do, a bullet in the head to put them down quick and clean. Dr. Phil said this was cruel and he said it was no more cruel than the shelters euthanizing 1,000 healthy dogs a month in his own county.


Exactly... I used to be the Dr. Death for the SPCA I know all about their 26 dogs a day.. CRUEL??? Then the PO that shoot the dog 3 times in the body to get one head shot? Thats not cruel? I've put down a crapload of animals a SINGLE shot to the medula oblangata is faster, and less painfull than lethal injection, its just that WE can't take it, emotionally. I don't know if I will watch it now, Im already


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## Firehazard

Shes Got Heart said:


> I found this on youtube so far... guess its a repeat...
> 
> YouTube - Dr. Phil COnfronts Animal Abusers


:goodpost: I love ignorance and hyprocritical BS..


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## Saint Francis

Putting a dog in the ring and showing it screaming isn't going to win over too many people. Then admitting that the pup was scared to be in there doesn't really back up the theory that all pit bulls love to fight. How did you expect the people to respond?


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## 9361

Saint Francis said:


> Putting a dog in the ring and showing it screaming isn't going to win over too many people. Then admitting that the pup was scared to be in there doesn't really back up the theory that all pit bulls love to fight. How did you expect the people to respond?


I dont think it was the guys choice clip...


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## Saint Francis

You are probably correct, but you know what I mean. BTW, my response wasn't aimed at you, I, more or less, just threw it out there LOL!!! We all good?


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## MISSAPBT

Putting a dog in a [ ] that isnt wanting to fight, EPIC FAIL.


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## gamer

You know everyone needs to get off this animal abuse crap it gets old abused animals get more help and more sympathy then abused children and that is wrong. I love animals but imagine what we could do for the children if we gave them half the attention we do to these dogs and other animals?


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## gamer

For all we know that dog turned on in the next two seconds and went crazy on the other dog. That scream sounds more like the scream of an over excited dog. You can see he cant get a hold on the other dog, you can see he was trying to get into a position to do so, a cur would be trying to pull away not go back after, so the scream could be an over excited/frustrated dog. I had two screamers in my life and they would scream and scream at the site of another dog it sounded like we were cutting its tail off lol but they were just really excited and wanted to eat the other dog.


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## Saint Francis

True, true but what if the pup was scared and didn't want to fight, then what? I suspect some would label him/her a cur and cull, citing that this is not a REAL APBT. The guy claimed he culled hundreds of dogs himself. I will say that I did not watch the segment, so I am going by what others have said. That's a big number though.


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## MISSAPBT

A dog that wont fight is cold, a dog that quits is a cur.

There are curs that have gone on to reproduce and become ROMS, there not all killed off.


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## Saint Francis

I don't argue that one bit. My point is that a pit bull is a pit bull regardless if it fights or not and that culling for not fighting, or worse yet, losing is wrong. I think some would like to believe that the pit bull is this ultimate fighting machine and forget that they are still dogs and that there's a heart beating in their chest. This all goes back to my original question, how do expect the public to react to thinking like this?


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## Gimbler

gamer said:


> You know everyone needs to get off this animal abuse crap it gets old abused animals get more help and more sympathy then abused children and that is wrong. I love animals but imagine what we could do for the children if we gave them half the attention we do to these dogs and other animals?


This has nothing to do with fighting but I am SO with you on this point! I work at a "big box" store and we have had more goody two shoe bleeding heart "dog lovers" calling the police to our parking lot this summer than I have ever seen in my 22 years in retail. Every time some hysterical do-gooder sees a dog in a car they make some kind of federal case out of it. It happened again today and it wasn't even hot out! The poor owner ran in for a hot dog and soda (to go!) - left his dog in the car with the sunroof open. I'm getting tired of it - the police are WAY tired of it. These people don't even look to see whether the dog is heat stressed, they don't take the temperature or whether the owner left enough ventilation into consideration - they just call the police and stomp around proclaiming themselves "dog lovers" hoping to be congratulated on their quick and decisive action.


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## MISSAPBT

Those particular APBTs are working dogs not pets 
Public need to understand this, which they never will. But SF i can definatly see where you are coming from.


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## Saint Francis

I think both children and animals are abused and neglected equally in this world. I will actually still have more of a concern for animals though because they can't even speak our language to even ask for help. It's just hard for me to see a dog chained up in the intense heat or cold with little to no water, etc. and say that this animal has it better than a human. But you are correct in saying that there are a helluva lot of children being abused daily too. I feel, and speak up, for both when I can. Blessed are the innocent.


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## Firehazard

All I can say is.. Rascal~ Let the kids roll all over him; yes, a fighting Champion  Thats a APBT =D

I don't condone ignorance, however the professional contests out there aren't ghetto yard rolls, or trailer park round a bouts, that the media has hyped into belief as the norm.. IF it wasn't for MATCHING you wouldn't have the STOCK you have today... YOU WOULD ALL HAVE AMERICAN BULLDOGS and BOSTON TERRIERS.. INSTEAD, you have the American PIT Bull Terrier.


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## Saint Francis

MISSAPBT said:


> Those particular APBTs are working dogs not pets
> Public need to understand this, which they never will. But SF i can definatly see where you are coming from.


I think we're close to understanding eachother's point. However, my pit bull will be my pet, or more accurately, my friend. He will be a working pit bull though, working on planting smiles on my face and such LOL!!!!


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## gamer

Saint Francis said:


> I think both children and animals are abused and neglected equally in this world. I will actually still have more of a concern for animals though because they can't even speak our language to even ask for help. It's just hard for me to see a dog chained up in the intense heat or cold with little to no water, etc. and say that this animal has it better than a human. But you are correct in saying that there are a helluva lot of children being abused daily too. I feel, and speak up, for both when I can. Blessed are the innocent.


Children cant speak out either because if they do and CPS does not remove them they are in for an even worse beating. Dogs can at least fight back, jump a fence etc kids are stuck in it.

As far as culling for being a cur its just like hunting dogs they too ar culled if they dont hunt. Heck if humans dont work they are culled from society when they become homeless.


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## Firehazard

gamer said:


> Children cant speak out either because if they do and CPS does not remove them they are in for an even worse beating. Dogs can at least fight back, jump a fence etc kids are stuck in it.
> 
> As far as culling for being a cur its just like hunting dogs they too ar culled if they dont hunt. Heck if humans dont work they are culled from society when they become homeless.


:rofl: how many cur breeds are out there? all of them claiming they aren't APBT rejects, :hammer: I can name 25 cur dogs right now and all of them are APBT rejects or outcrosses..


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## MISSAPBT

It was a bit unfair having like 10 massive bikers (born again angels) to one dogman!


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## Saint Francis

Firehazard said:


> All I can say is.. Rascal~ Let the kids roll all over him; yes, a fighting Champion  Thats a APBT =D
> 
> I don't condone ignorance, however the professional contests out there aren't ghetto yard rolls, or trailer park round a bouts, that the media has hyped into belief as the norm.. IF it wasn't for MATCHING you wouldn't have the STOCK you have today... YOU WOULD ALL HAVE AMERICAN BULLDOGS and BOSTON TERRIERS.. INSTEAD, you have the American PIT Bull Terrier.


Lisa at PK has agility champions, etc. and many people on this site have show/or weight pull champs that let kids roll all over them. So they aren't APBTs or just not REAL APBTs? Seriously, did all the APBTs dissappear after 1976 or what? Times change, nature evolves. Would you rather we go back to starting fire with sticks LOL? I've said previously that if there was a way to guarrantee that each pit bull wanted to fight without coersion, and that there was no significant damage ( absolutely no reason for deaths, ever) and a qualified, non biased vet/referee to make such decisions THEN I would be forced to rethink some of my beliefs about dog fighting.


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## william williamson

MISSAPBT said:


> It was a bit unfair having like 10 massive bikers (born again angels) to one dogman!


and old boy stood up and said sure,test me.
but like the bikers they are,it won't be one on one.they were suited up and acted the part of ignorant mouthpiece.
and the good wuss Dr. Phill set it up that way.


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## Saint Francis

gamer said:


> Children cant speak out either because if they do and CPS does not remove them they are in for an even worse beating. Dogs can at least fight back, jump a fence etc kids are stuck in it.
> 
> As far as culling for being a cur its just like hunting dogs they too ar culled if they dont hunt. Heck if humans dont work they are culled from society when they become homeless.


Animals don't always have the opportunity to escape and know that biting the hand that (barely) feeds them is not a good thing. But duly noted. Now as far as culling a dog for not fighting is the equivalent of saying that they are only good for one thing...fighting. We know this is not true, especially with the APBT. How many people on this site are culling there pups because they aren't fighters? This is actually a question I want to ask (a poll) but it could get people in trouble, but How many people on this site would fight there pups if it was legal? I mean go venture over to the picture section of this site and tell me how many people would take their cuties to the [].


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## dixieland

Firehazard said:


> All I can say is.. Rascal~ Let the kids roll all over him; yes, a fighting Champion  Thats a APBT =D
> 
> I don't condone ignorance, however the professional contests out there aren't ghetto yard rolls, or trailer park round a bouts, that the media has hyped into belief as the norm.. IF it wasn't for MATCHING you wouldn't have the STOCK you have today... YOU WOULD ALL HAVE AMERICAN BULLDOGS and BOSTON TERRIERS.. INSTEAD, you have the American PIT Bull Terrier.


I get what you're saying.I completely agree!


MISSAPBT said:


> It was a bit unfair having like 10 massive bikers (born again angels) to one dogman!


:rofl:those guys are a joke!Oh me big muscle man with tattoos!Me bada$$!
:rofl:Hahaaa!I'm sorry i just had to laugh at these guys!It was unfair though.Which is what I'm sure Dr Phil was going for


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## MISSAPBT

Saint Francis said:


> Lisa at PK has agility champions, etc. and many people on this site have show/or weight pull champs that let kids roll all over them. So they aren't APBTs or just not REAL APBTs? Seriously, did all the APBTs dissappear after 1976 or what? Times change, nature evolves. Would you rather we go back to starting fire with sticks LOL? I've said previously that if there was a way to guarrantee that each pit bull wanted to fight without coersion, and that there was no significant damage ( absolutely no reason for deaths, ever) and a qualified, non biased vet/referee to make such decisions THEN I would be forced to rethink some of my beliefs about dog fighting.


Doesnt mean there not true apbts it just means there not "gamedogs".
Go have a read of the Cajan Rules, it is not common practice for dogs to fight to the death. If a dog is not 'enjoying' (not wanting) the fight it is called, if a dog is not wanting to scratch it is called.

PK dogs are a totally diffrent kettle of fish.


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## Saint Francis

william williamson said:


> and old boy stood up and said sure,test me.
> but like the bikers they are,it won't be one on one.they were suited up and acted the part of ignorant mouthpiece.
> and the good wuss Dr. Phill set it up that way.


I guess the old boy wouldn't be very game then if it was only 10 on 1, probably should be culled. Sorry, couldn't help myself


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## Saint Francis

MISSAPBT said:


> Doesnt mean there not true apbts it just means there not "gamedogs".
> Go have a read of the Cajan Rules, it is not common practice for dogs to fight to the death. If a dog is not 'enjoying' (not wanting) the fight it is called, if a dog is not wanting to scratch it is called.
> 
> PK dogs are a totally diffrent kettle of fish.


I know that there are rules, and IF FOLLOWED, may work but the phrase " Rules were meant to be broken" I'm sure applies to pit bulls as well, especially as the pot sweetens. As far as gamedogs, well I'm sure all of us law abiding citizens don't possess gamedogs, right? Game bred is what most have legally and Lisa's are such, or at least some of them. I don't feel comfortable using her as an example any more, and I apologize to Lisa and the forum.


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## MISSAPBT

Saint Francis said:


> I know that there are rules, and IF FOLLOWED, may work but the phrase " Rules were meant to be broken" I'm sure applies to pit bulls as well, especially as the pot sweetens. As far as gamedogs, well I'm sure all of us law abiding citizens don't possess gamedogs, right? Game bred is what most have legally and Lisa's are such, or at least some of them. I don't feel comfortable using her as an example any more, and I apologize to Lisa and the forum.


Gamedogs are fighting dogs. im sure she doesnt have those.
Gamebred is diffrent, i think that litle cutie tan one she has (riot) is gamebred 

Rules are made to be broken, yes BUT it is a sport, if a rule is broken then there is a disqualification. there for the rule braker is the loser.


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## 9361

We are all good St.Francis, I'm with you on this one. Although I agree with culling for undesirable traits such as human aggression. But culling can also refer to spaying or neutering a dog. I don't think a dog should be killed for not wanting to fight.


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## coppermare

It's disgusting plain and simple. Ten on one wouldn't bother me at all. He deserves it. How could you be proud enough to come on a talk show and say you did such things? You should hang your sorry head in shame. I can't even believe people here KNOW the rules of dog fighting or read them. I agree that this mentality and keeping some kind of idolized view of what use to be will never help this breed. Sure, you wouldn't have them if it hadn't of happened but it is nothing to be proud of. It happened, it's the past and it's shameful. 
Ever since I joined this site I've felt the underlying current of this holding a gamedog, gamebred dog in high esteem. Which, again I see the purpose to have that drive for hunting maybe but no other reason. Yet, it's still there, the proudness of what they use to do with them. The looking up to the "dogmen". Why? 

How can you in one post say kicking a dog is cruel and in another say a dog that doesnt fight should have been culled or is a cur?


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## American_Pit13

There is too much to comment on!!!!

OK one at a time 



gamer said:


> You know everyone needs to get off this animal abuse crap it gets old abused animals get more help and more sympathy then abused children and that is wrong. I love animals but imagine what we could do for the children if we gave them half the attention we do to these dogs and other animals?


Very true! In most areas animal abuse will even come with more fines and jail time then child abuse varying on severity.



Shes Got Heart said:


> Actually the dog fighter seemed pretty legit about fighting dogs. He talked about how in the 70's there were more organized fights like he does or at least did before he was convicted. They brought on the crew from the show Rescue Ink and everyone ganged up on the one guy. The guys on Rescue ink brought up bait dogs and how people tape or wire their mouths shut so they can't fight back. And the dog fighter commented that he didn't know anyone who did that and no one he knows who fights would ever do that. So they went on the make the comment of "yeah right"


I think the whole bait dog issue goes way over how much it actually happens. Now a days any sweet looking pitbull type dog with scars was a bait dog and any fierce looking pitbull type dog with scars was a fighter. I had never even heard of a bait dog or what it was until I was hearing about some punk kid fighters. Never heard about it with old timers. Not saying it never happened but I don't see it as being common.



Shes Got Heart said:


> He talked about how he didn't fight his dogs til the age of 2 when they were tested. They showed a video of a dog who was being tested that was pretty much screaming. The dog fighter said that it was his first time in the ring and he was scared. But Dr.Phil was arguing that the dog was in pain and it was cruel. The dog fighter was arguing back that he was testing the dog to see if he was going to be a good fighter or not and he didn't force any dogs to fight. They went on to talk about how he conditioned the dogs, he said he made them swim for 15 to 20 mins and did treadmill and something about weight exercise that I missed out on halfway because I was in the other room. But I think he was talking about backpacking putting a 1 or 2lbs weight in a pack on the dogs back. Dr. Phil considered all of this cruel and the audience was gasping in shock... especially about "forcing" the dogs to swim....


Sadly this just adds to the public thinking keeping your dog in healthy shape is in some way for fighting 



Shes Got Heart said:


> Oh he also said he has killed hundreds of dogs in his life time that were hurt and was not someone who would let an animal suffer or die from starvation and his dogs were well cared for. He said killing who could not be helped was the humane thing to do, a bullet in the head to put them down quick and clean. Dr. Phil said this was cruel and he said it was no more cruel than the shelters euthanizing 1,000 healthy dogs a month in his own county.


I wonder how many people in that audience or even the Dr. himself support PETA?



MISSAPBT said:


> It was a bit unfair having like 10 massive bikers (born again angels) to one dogman!


Lol ok about RI well come one big bully head on their shirts with a massive chain collar? They can't talk without insulting or trying to start a physical fight? Wow what exactly are they trying to represent?



Firehazard said:


> *IF it wasn't for MATCHING you wouldn't have the STOCK you have today... YOU WOULD ALL HAVE AMERICAN BULLDOGS and BOSTON TERRIERS.. INSTEAD, you have the American PIT Bull Terrier*.





Saint Francis said:


> Lisa at PK has agility champions, etc. and many people on this site have show/or weight pull champs that let kids roll all over them. So they aren't APBTs or just not REAL APBTs? Seriously, did all the APBTs dissappear after 1976 or what? Times change, nature evolves. Would you rather we go back to starting fire with sticks LOL? I've said previously that if there was a way to guarrantee that each pit bull wanted to fight without coersion, and that there was no significant damage ( absolutely no reason for deaths, ever) and a qualified, non biased vet/referee to make such decisions THEN I would be forced to rethink some of my beliefs about dog fighting.


He stated that if it wasn't for matching. Which is true. Matching is what created the stable breed we have. How ever it is what created it not what determines whether it is or isn't one other wise any of the other breeds that have ever been fought and won would in turn be APBT...........

I didn't get to watch the show but I am sure it was like all others it didn't portray a load of truth and most likely caused more harm than good.

I am against dog fighting of course. However when people do shows on dog fighting trying to save the breeds image they are going after all the wrong things. Things like the exercise issue pops up and then all of a sudden 
Exercise is bad!

DA is bad!

Cropping ears is bad!

Where are the shows on everything that over breeders are doing causing over population, the shows about untrained UN exercised dogs causing issues.

Sadly they do shows on dog fighting becasue it sells plain and simple.


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## MISSAPBT

coppermare said:


> How can you in one post say kicking a dog is cruel and in another say a dog that doesnt fight should have been culled or is a cur?


A dog was kept on how it preformed, dogmen didnt want to waist their money feeding curs, it was a sport, they were peformance dogs.
If people cant accept what this breed was bred and their history for then it isnt the breed for them, FH is 100% on the ball, none of us would have the dogs we have today if it wasnt for the dogmen of the past!
I have up most respect for the dogmen who worked their arses off to give us what we have today.


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## wild_deuce03

coppermare said:


> It's disgusting plain and simple. Ten on one wouldn't bother me at all. He deserves it. How could you be proud enough to come on a talk show and say you did such things? You should hang your sorry head in shame. I can't even believe people here KNOW the rules of dog fighting or read them. I agree that this mentality and keeping some kind of idolized view of what use to be will never help this breed. Sure, you wouldn't have them if it hadn't of happened but it is nothing to be proud of. It happened, it's the past and it's shameful.
> Ever since I joined this site I've felt the underlying current of this holding a gamedog, gamebred dog in high esteem. Which, again I see the purpose to have that drive for hunting maybe but no other reason. Yet, it's still there, the proudness of what they use to do with them. The looking up to the "dogmen". Why?
> 
> How can you in one post say kicking a dog is cruel and in another say a dog that doesnt fight should have been culled or is a cur?


I gotta agree with this. Is dog fighting condoned on this site? The little I've read here I thought pointed against dog fighting.

And what is culled or a cur?


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## Xiahko

is this the one when Rescue Inc comes in?
Saw that one. Paris Hilton was on it too.


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## MISSAPBT

wild_deuce03 said:


> And what is culled or a cur?


Culled is killed, PTS, and Cur - Any dog which curs out, or any breed of dog except a game pit dog; an inferior dog

Cur out - To quit from a lack of gameness


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## dixieland

wild_deuce03 said:


> I gotta agree with this. Is dog fighting condoned on this site? The little I've read here I thought pointed against dog fighting.
> 
> And what is culled or a cur?


Of course dog fighting is not condoned on this site.But you have to understand that dog fighting today is different then dog fighting years ago.And we are all sadly mistaken if we think that we could have the same dogs we love without what went on in the past.And that is what I respect.I respect where my dog came from,and that's what I choose to preserve.

And Missapbt I'm trying my darndest to give you rep!But with the new security measures my husband has in place,it won't let me.I'll certainly give you some when I can!


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## william williamson

Saint Francis said:


> I know that there are rules, and IF FOLLOWED, may work but the phrase " Rules were meant to be broken" I'm sure applies to pit bulls as well, especially as the pot sweetens. As far as gamedogs, well I'm sure all of us law abiding citizens don't possess gamedogs, right? Game bred is what most have legally and Lisa's are such, or at least some of them. I don't feel comfortable using her as an example any more, and I apologize to Lisa and the forum.


some folks didn't break rules.


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## william williamson

Saint Francis said:


> I know that there are rules, and IF FOLLOWED, may work but the phrase " Rules were meant to be broken" I'm sure applies to pit bulls as well, especially as the pot sweetens. As far as gamedogs, well I'm sure all of us law abiding citizens don't possess gamedogs, right? Game bred is what most have legally and Lisa's are such, or at least some of them. I don't feel comfortable using her as an example any more, and I apologize to Lisa and the forum.


your right about the statement.
the problem is that theirs the back days of gaming and the now days.
I quit gaming when I caught A bid.in 1988.
it was like night and day when I got out.
when I got my first gamedog in 1978 I knew absolutely nothing about them,or that such A breed existed.
within A year I was rollin dogs.I met some guys in NC once I moved there,one who was A gamedog man.he introduced me to several others over the next 9 years.
in that time they taught me about vetting,rolling,putting dogs in keep and training,(road work and treadmill) and breeding,the most important factor of the whole mix.
we culled real quitters,some dogs would have a wrecked front end or not be able to continue,but you could ask for A courtesy scratch.you would have a winner,just no losing dog.long dogfights were not really frowned on,we just felt the dogs were not par dogs.their were some famous dogs going long,but it didn't mean as much as a finisher who could turn A dog off in A 1/2 hr to 45 min.thats what a match was,it wasn't about winning with A walk away.it was about finding the dogs likes and dislikes,parrying A hold.we had one dog that would throw her leg up then grab the other dog by it's head,she had an incredibly hard mouth/bite,and would shake A dog out rolling it into the corner.she used A prop,then the corner to effect her winning strategy.many females would get one win,or be bred real good and just tested then bred.never really more than A 2 dog or 3 dog roll out.
we were diligent about everything about every aspect of handling our dogs.
when I hit the street 4 years later I looked around and everything had changed for the most part.
the first thing was about 9 reported pitbull attacks in about as many mos.
then when I went to the dragstrip their were bull dogs tied to every truck.and they were facing them off.
I would see everyone with pits walking all over the place.
then the guys at the track took 2 dogs and turned them loose.they were touching them,which to a game man is A no no.no box,they were sloppy dogs,nothing game about them.
went to 1 match away from the guys from my old network.kinda an innercity git to.
I was mortified.again they didn't bring game dogs.these guys walked up with leashed dogs,no baths,no vet tools,A flimsy not to size box.no floor mat,they didn't seperate after A turn.
now,rules,this was the day I walked away from that world.it had come to what everyone feared about the dogs.bad dogs,because they had no education as to what a real game dog looked like.
these guys sold dope,they had flow. they would buy proven dogs,then crash them.the dogs were used to what we did they responded to their diet and their road work.the attention we gave them.
and then they would go to A kid who knew only that he thought money would buy.
I'll let you tell me if you think we broke the rules.why would anyone do so much to bring A specimen to the box,then cheat the dog out of his prize?
in the game world we ostracized cheaters.guys who would poison their dogs coat,or dope A dog,or hang papers,or abuse dogsor any other arrangement of things.
I'm not trying to say anything really other than some people worked hard at what they did.and to lie or cheat or break rules. 
if someone needs to delete this,ok.


----------



## Firehazard

Saint Francis said:


> Lisa at PK has agility champions, etc. and many people on this site have show/or weight pull champs that let kids roll all over them. So they aren't APBTs or just not REAL APBTs? Seriously, did all the APBTs dissappear after 1976 or what? Times change, nature evolves. Would you rather we go back to starting fire with sticks LOL? I've said previously that if there was a way to guarrantee that each pit bull wanted to fight without coersion, and that there was no significant damage ( absolutely no reason for deaths, ever) and a qualified, non biased vet/referee to make such decisions THEN I would be forced to rethink some of my beliefs about dog fighting.


Did I say there isn't ignorance? A cur is a cur and that is end of it, its black or white. ALL OF YOUR STOCK IS FROM THE BEST FIGHTING DOGS THE WORLD *HAD* SEEN... trace it back to HOW IT GOT STARTED.. If your not breeding game dogs then your not HONORING the GENETIC history that entitles the term "Pit" Bull.. The real bulldog was thrown into the fighting pit; forever dubbed "pit bull". The dogs bred for game are as close to the real bulldog and have been culled for personality defects.. When your breeding anything your playing "God" and must adhere to the responciblties of your manipulations because of genetic throwbacks.

To follow that up, if you don't keep game dogs in your stock, not only is no longer pit bull your altering the high drive to chase something more like, um.. People. PK has game dogs and game stock Im not real sure but I think PK also has a little game in the show lines, in that I could be wrong but I thought I remember seeing some game shot in there. Anyhow.. The reason everyone calls OFRN dogs AMstaffs is because they have been bred for show and pull for so long they havent looked nor cared for the game gene that makes them APBT.. I LOVE THE OFRN,, BY FAR MY FAVORITE... BUT.. There are NO proven OFRN dogs today.. If there are, they are PRICELESS~ JMO

Again.. Rascal, Petey, the Lil' Rascals~ the proof is in the puddin'.....


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## Firehazard

Saint Francis said:


> Animals don't always have the opportunity to escape and know that biting the hand that (barely) feeds them is not a good thing. But duly noted. Now as far as culling a dog for not fighting is the equivalent of saying that they are only good for one thing...fighting. We know this is not true, especially with the APBT. How many people on this site are culling there pups because they aren't fighters? This is actually a question I want to ask (a poll) but it could get people in trouble, but How many people on this site would fight there pups if it was legal? I mean go venture over to the picture section of this site and tell me how many people would take their cuties to the [].


HEY,, in Oklahoma and a few other states its legal to "train" catch dogs by putting them in the [] with wild boar; Hmmmm.. I guarantee you that pig wants to get away  and thats what he's fighting for, the dog gets close the pig the pig charges if there are 2 well bred dogs in the [] WHICH DO YOU THINK WILL CHARGE??? most likely BOTH unless ones a CUR from which the term is derived.. ARE WE really so sensitive we can't handle the fact that 3/4 of the stock are curs???? Because we really KNOW deep down, the APBT is NOT a cur bred dog, it is a GAME bred dog.

FYI, most dog men know what to pick by the time dog is 8 wks old so its still a puppy and its the same thing a guy whos breeding his HOUNDS hot for MtLion,Bear,and Jaguar.. Your looking for the getsome, and I like to look for the pup that loves to play and be around ppl, but crushes the pup that bullies the crew. The Bully Crusher..( I had to explain it before I said it on here because it could be misinterpreted)


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## MISSAPBT

SF i think your no understnading the cull thing, dogfighter cull coz they dont want curs.
People nowdays arent going to cull their puppies if there cold dogs. APBT pet is diffrent from a dogmans gamedog.


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## coppermare

MISSAPBT said:


> A dog was kept on how it preformed, dogmen didnt want to waist their money feeding curs, it was a sport, they were peformance dogs.
> If people cant accept what this breed was bred and their history for then it isnt the breed for them, FH is 100% on the ball, none of us would have the dogs we have today if it wasnt for the dogmen of the past!
> I have up most respect for the dogmen who worked their arses off to give us what we have today.


"If people cant accept what this breed was bred and their history for then it isnt the breed for them," That statement has nothing to do with whether a breed is for someone or not. Perhaps it's the breed for someone that likes a loyal family dog that is intelligent? Perhaps some guy wants to hunt. Sure, he may have gotten his lack of HA from his past, he may have gotten his wanting to hunt, or his tenacity that could pull him through the worst of times, and yeah we'd be thankful for that. STILL doesn't mean I'd be hopping all around bragging about HOW he got it or knowing all the rules and terms used in a sport that is barbaric by nature. I'm no PETA fan by any means but putting two dumb animals in a ring to kill each other is NOT any intelligent moral persons idea of entertainment.

They worked their arses off? Give me a break. You just said it was a sport. Probably for money. I have NO RESPECT for them whatsoever.


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## Firehazard

I speak about matching dogs, just like its spoken about in the books  From a historical standpoint, if I talk about current dogs with matched wins then they are done OTC. If your misinterpretation and self misguidence persuades you otherwise, then you need to read a few more books. NO, the APBT is a WORKING dog the true Bulldog, and that WAS kept by being GAME thus dogs bred from proven game dogs, most current game dogs have OTC wins, that like drinking in the air when your 18.. THis isn't a communist country, well, not yet.. We can still SPEAK FREELY and if I have insulted you, well .. thick headedness insults me, the truth is what it is.. Whats the purpous of knowing anything or doing anything if we don't KNOW the TRUTH and DO it the RIGHT way??? I live in the sticks because I would rather trust my GAME BRED dog to keep ours safe from Bear, Mt.Lion, Wolves, Bobcats, Wovlerines, ***** and Coytoes than trust the gobs of ppl livin on each other in a city where everyone is out for themselves. Out in the sticks where you don't DEPEND on anyone  Yes deep down, Im a free runnin Native..


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## MISSAPBT

Thats fine coppermare that you think that, everyone has opinion, we all dont have to like what you think is right.

Im not going to sit here and debate with someone who has totally opp views to me


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## coppermare

Firehazard said:


> I speak about matching dogs, just like its spoken about in the books  From a historical standpoint, if I talk about current dogs with matched wins then they are done OTC. If your misinterpretation and self misguidence persuades you otherwise, then you need to read a few more books. NO, the APBT is a WORKING dog the true Bulldog, and that WAS kept by being GAME thus dogs bred from proven game dogs, most current game dogs have OTC wins, that like drinking in the air when your 18.. THis isn't a communist country, well, not yet.. We can still SPEAK FREELY and if I have insulted you, well .. thick headedness insults me, the truth is what it is.. Whats the purpous of knowing anything or doing anything if we don't KNOW the TRUTH and DO it the RIGHT way??? I live in the sticks because I would rather trust my GAME BRED dog to keep ours safe from Bear, Mt.Lion, Wolves, Bobcats, Wovlerines, ***** and Coytoes than trust the gobs of ppl livin on each other in a city where everyone is out for themselves. Out in the sticks where you don't DEPEND on anyone  Yes deep down, Im a free runnin Native..


I have no idea what OFC means. I don't read the books, nor do I wish to. I can barely watch the videos like the one posted. There are plenty of "working" dogs that I think protect people from wolves, bobcats and the "wild" not just the APBT. Every country bred their idea of a fighting dog also. Nothing new. Still nothing to be proud of. I understand "heart" and I'm thinking this is akin to "gameness". Let me try this another way.
If your Native American, I hang my head in shame at my forefathers and what they did. I am not proud of them. I don't idolize them. What happened, happened and I'm glad I'm here and wouldn't be here in American if it had not. But I'm not proud of the way it came about.


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## 9361

coppermare said:


> "If people cant accept what this breed was bred and their history for then it isnt the breed for them," That statement has nothing to do with whether a breed is for someone or not. Perhaps it's the breed for someone that likes a loyal family dog that is intelligent? Perhaps some guy wants to hunt. Sure, he may have gotten his lack of HA from his past, he may have gotten his wanting to hunt, or his tenacity that could pull him through the worst of times, and yeah we'd be thankful for that. STILL doesn't mean I'd be hopping all around bragging about HOW he got it or knowing all the rules and terms used in a sport that is barbaric by nature. I'm no PETA fan by any means but putting two dumb animals in a ring to kill each other is NOT any intelligent moral persons idea of entertainment.
> 
> They worked their arses off? Give me a break. You just said it was a sport. Probably for money. I have NO RESPECT for them whatsoever.


One does not have to like dog fighting or support dog fighting to know the history and rules of the box. I learned about it when I was 15 when I picked up a book of my friends, a basic breed book on the breed probably called American Pit Bull Terrier or whatever. I didn't know a lick about the breed at the time and I had previously believed the media hype. The book discussed dog fighting. In this book it talked about the original rules and purposes and the whole bull baiting history and all of it. This was a book written in modern times. Dog fighting is our breeds history, if you want to learn about the breeds history you have to accept it.

Mans history itself is bloody and horrid, fraught with wars and bloodshed, but they still teach about it to the kids in school.



Firehazard said:


> I speak about matching dogs, just like its spoken about in the books  From a historical standpoint, if I talk about current dogs with matched wins then they are done OTC. If your misinterpretation and self misguidence persuades you otherwise, then you need to read a few more books. NO, the APBT is a WORKING dog the true Bulldog, and that WAS kept by being GAME thus dogs bred from proven game dogs, most current game dogs have OTC wins, that like drinking in the air when your 18.. THis isn't a communist country, well, not yet.. We can still SPEAK FREELY and if I have insulted you, well .. thick headedness insults me, the truth is what it is.. Whats the purpous of knowing anything or doing anything if we don't KNOW the TRUTH and DO it the RIGHT way??? I live in the sticks because I would rather trust my GAME BRED dog to keep ours safe from Bear, Mt.Lion, Wolves, Bobcats, Wovlerines, ***** and Coytoes than trust the gobs of ppl livin on each other in a city where everyone is out for themselves. Out in the sticks where you don't DEPEND on anyone  Yes deep down, Im a free runnin Native..


YEEEEEHAWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl: A country boy can survive!  Not makin' fun of you... I grew up in a small town and now I live in a city with 100 x my old towns population. I really miss the country. You can't trust anyone it seems, dang sure can't trust the law!


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## coppermare

I hear what your saying SGH and understand. But, when I heard the history I had no desire to pick that book up like you did. I had no desire to learn history in school either but I had to in order to get out of there. LOL. And in later years living with someone that studied Native American history learned that most of the history they taught us is not factual.
And I know without a doubt what I feel when I hear some people here talk about that history. I don't have to read things into it. Even though it's typed words with no emotion. And I can't help but to respond to those strong feelings. I think I'll go play some bejeweled to shake my empath side into numbness.


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## gamer

Saint Francis said:


> Lisa at PK has agility champions, etc. and many people on this site have show/or weight pull champs that let kids roll all over them. So they aren't APBTs or just not REAL APBTs? Seriously, did all the APBTs dissappear after 1976 or what? Times change, nature evolves. Would you rather we go back to starting fire with sticks LOL? I've said previously that if there was a way to guarrantee that each pit bull wanted to fight without coersion, and that there was no significant damage ( absolutely no reason for deaths, ever) and a qualified, non biased vet/referee to make such decisions THEN I would be forced to rethink some of my beliefs about dog fighting.


well if anything the government should have kept it legal and done what they have done with boxing. The breed would be better off.



Saint Francis said:


> Animals don't always have the opportunity to escape and know that biting the hand that (barely) feeds them is not a good thing. But duly noted. Now as far as culling a dog for not fighting is the equivalent of saying that they are only good for one thing...fighting. We know this is not true, especially with the APBT. How many people on this site are culling there pups because they aren't fighters? This is actually a question I want to ask (a poll) but it could get people in trouble, but How many people on this site would fight there pups if it was legal? I mean go venture over to the picture section of this site and tell me how many people would take their cuties to the [].


You know what culling is not a bad thing. Even show dogs should be culled, if they are born with a defect or if they are born with major faults, if they have major faults as they age. It would make for many less pit bulls in the world, but they would rather pawn that pup for cash. I think every breeder should be culling.



coppermare said:


> It's disgusting plain and simple. Ten on one wouldn't bother me at all. He deserves it. How could you be proud enough to come on a talk show and say you did such things? You should hang your sorry head in shame. I can't even believe people here KNOW the rules of dog fighting or read them. I agree that this mentality and keeping some kind of idolized view of what use to be will never help this breed. Sure, you wouldn't have them if it hadn't of happened but it is nothing to be proud of. It happened, it's the past and it's shameful.
> Ever since I joined this site I've felt the underlying current of this holding a gamedog, gamebred dog in high esteem. Which, again I see the purpose to have that drive for hunting maybe but no other reason. Yet, it's still there, the proudness of what they use to do with them. The looking up to the "dogmen". Why?
> 
> How can you in one post say kicking a dog is cruel and in another say a dog that doesnt fight should have been culled or is a cur?


Lol why look up to the dogmen, because it is their rears that are on the line to keep what little of this breed we have left. The old dog men need ot be praised for this breed and the time and dedication they put into this breed GAH epic fail on people who own this breed and refuse to educate themselves or hate the dogmen.



coppermare said:


> I have no idea what OFC means. I don't read the books, nor do I wish to. I can barely watch the videos like the one posted. There are plenty of "working" dogs that I think protect people from wolves, bobcats and the "wild" not just the APBT. Every country bred their idea of a fighting dog also. Nothing new. Still nothing to be proud of. I understand "heart" and I'm thinking this is akin to "gameness". Let me try this another way.
> If your Native American, I hang my head in shame at my forefathers and what they did. I am not proud of them. I don't idolize them. What happened, happened and I'm glad I'm here and wouldn't be here in American if it had not. But I'm not proud of the way it came about.


OTC means off the chain. Not conditioned dogs taken off the chain and put against another dog/


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## Firehazard

coppermare said:


> I have no idea what OFC means. I don't read the books, nor do I wish to. I can barely watch the videos like the one posted. There are plenty of "working" dogs that I think protect people from wolves, bobcats and the "wild" not just the APBT. Every country bred their idea of a fighting dog also. Nothing new. Still nothing to be proud of. I understand "heart" and I'm thinking this is akin to "gameness". Let me try this another way.
> If your Native American, I hang my head in shame at my forefathers and what they did. I am not proud of them. I don't idolize them. What happened, happened and I'm glad I'm here and wouldn't be here in American if it had not. But I'm not proud of the way it came about.


No working dog like the true bulldog the game bred APBT  I love my prehistoric dogs and my wolf dogs however no matter how intelligent they are, when it comes to get some they lack .. I've seen the best working dogs compared on the praries of Nowata and the game bred APBT is *superior *in every fashion..

How do you feel about Dogo Argentino? l]
STILL not an game bred APBT... 
The only reason less people use game dogs is because they don't know how to curve the DA.. ITs easy on a HUNT its the walk home thats tricky :roll: I show this dog because the last to ppl to get a dog from me were replacing a Dogo and the other a Caucasian Ovacharka, both had been strung up by coyotes.. My dogs are herding cattle and kickin a$$ for a living the pup that went to the home with the Caucasian Ovacharka has a male Border Collie that brought her up, she however is spayed. *IMO this is what a gamebred dog is ment to do*. No dog does it better.. I have seen it with my own eyes, the gamebred APBT is a superior stock dog.

I wish everyone who said that would vote to give the land back, most of you who say that don't want a bunch of land which is good for the Native American except, oh yeah the entire continent is all jkd up from whats it called?... OH, yeah, Progress  Funny part is its written the U.S. bought the land.. hahahaha really??? Thats a funny way of describing genocide.

You know the problem with Americans is we have NO PRIDE, your proud to be an American to stand for freedom on the land that was taken in an act of genocide and so you are so sad that it came about that way.. Hmm The best way to find a hypocrite is by looking in the mirror  I like to call mine out early in the day hahaha Because this is my home I am proud to be an United States citizen, to be more than a race, we are a people.. The beauty part of America is OUR forefathers left it in PLACE for US to decide FOR US not the Government.. Sorry I feel the government should watch our borders and provide schools, and stay out of our lives .. Thats why I am registered Republican, no Im not rich, I honor the freedom we have because of that piece of paper that consistantly gets amendended to make less freedom and more control, enforcing dependancy 

Buy American.. Esspecially your dogs  As a Comanche I can value a good horse and good dog above almost anything other than a good gun  I also recognize Imperialism as thats what Comanches were, it was Comanchera, before the U.S. Dragoons, and Calvary.. later becoming the U.S. ARMY.


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## Saint Francis

Bottom line, everyone chooses to love this breed for a reason, whether it is as a companion who works the spring pole, like some of us city slickers, or to match with the dog in the nearest town. I understand the history of the APBT and the dogmen but I don't think they have the patent on this creature. The APBT can perform a multitude of tasks besides fighting and should not be defined by such. However, in the end you and I both will have smiles on our faces for having the pleasure of owning this breed and that's all that matters. As for culling, in some cases I understand its purpose but it should never be used as an implement of convience. BTW, I LOVE the OFRN!!!! See we have something in common already


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## william williamson

Firehazard said:


> Buy American.. Esspecially your dogs  As a Comanche I can value a good horse and good dog above almost anything other than a good gun QUOTE]with A good horse and dog,the gun is for naught.
> I could live in the everglades with my dogs A canoe and A good knife.


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## gamer

Firehazard this is the US where we can be proud to attack and kill other countries but get all butt hurt when they attack us that is how our pride goes lol the US is like a 2 year old if we dont get our way we throw a fit.


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## wild_deuce03

dixieland said:


> Of course dog fighting is not condoned on this site.But you have to understand that dog fighting today is different then dog fighting years ago.And we are all sadly mistaken if we think that we could have the same dogs we love without what went on in the past.And that is what I respect.I respect where my dog came from,and that's what I choose to preserve.


Fair enough. I don't like the dog fighting but understand what you are saying. I admit my naivety regarding this breed before I got Athena and am just trying to make sense of it all and soak up everything I can. Don't want to be part of those statistics, ya know!

Side note, I see you are in Fayetteville. I'm here as well. 



Shes Got Heart said:


> One does not have to like dog fighting or support dog fighting to know the history and rules of the box. I learned about it when I was 15 when I picked up a book of my friends, a basic breed book on the breed probably called American Pit Bull Terrier or whatever. I didn't know a lick about the breed at the time and I had previously believed the media hype. The book discussed dog fighting. In this book it talked about the original rules and purposes and the whole bull baiting history and all of it. This was a book written in modern times. Dog fighting is our breeds history, if you want to learn about the breeds history you have to accept it.
> 
> Mans history itself is bloody and horrid, fraught with wars and bloodshed, but they still teach about it to the kids in school.


Well said!!!


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## william williamson

Saint Francis said:


> Bottom line, everyone chooses to love this breed for a reason, whether it is as a companion who works the spring pole, like some of us city slickers, or to match with the dog in the nearest town. I understand the history of the APBT and the dogmen but I don't think they have the patent on this creature. The APBT can perform a multitude of tasks besides fighting and should not be defined by such. However, in the end you and I both will have smiles on our faces for having the pleasure of owning this breed and that's all that matters. As for culling, in some cases I understand its purpose but it should never be used as an implement of convience. BTW, I LOVE the OFRN!!!! See we have something in common already


theirs something many folks miss out on because they don't have that old guy to talk to.
I can't tell you how many good dogs were given away by the ripe old age of 4-6 mos. by dogmen.
many of them could look at the way they move,they watched every aspect of their personality.what they did when they played or ate.how they dominated others.whether they would back down from A tussle.
I've seen them pull A dog from A litter and farm it out.be it good looking,for show,or questionable as to their temperament.
theirs 2 things they watched for randomly.ear pickers or pups that had A penchant for back legs.2 things that make hoggin easy.ear holds and leggin them out.
yup,don't got to say it.sometimes they were wrong.yet, for the most part they weren't wrong often.
old man Chavis was my friend.he was one of the best.with his big yellow john dog,an ugly cuss, but one day he picked it up and told us he was a special dog.
they were alot better for the breed than many of the people that still game them, and by far alot of those who have them and don't fight them.
they breed them randomly,they take them to dog parks,they let them dominate they let them jump fences and run wild,they don't kennel them with other breeds.
and what do we get to hear?the fools epitath.
I never,"GASP" thought my dog would do that.


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## Saint Francis

gamer said:


> Firehazard this is the US where we can be proud to attack and kill other countries but get all butt hurt when they attack us that is how our pride goes lol the US is like a 2 year old if we dont get our way we throw a fit.


This is very easy to say from the comfort of a lazy boy recliner on a lab top computer. This country has alot of faults, show me one that doesn't, but it ain't all bad either. As they say, "love it or leave it". This country doesn't put a gun to your head forcing you to stay here, but I could find you a country that would. Just saying, be proud of what you got and remember that it is called the AMERICAN pit bull terrier


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## MISSAPBT

Gotta remember they were imported into America


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## william williamson

MISSAPBT said:


> Gotta remember they were imported into America


and refined.


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## Firehazard

Saint Francis said:


> This is very easy to say from the comfort of a lazy boy recliner on a lab top computer. This country has alot of faults, show me one that doesn't, but it ain't all bad either. As they say, "love it or leave it". This country doesn't put a gun to your head forcing you to stay here, but I could find you a country that would. Just saying, be proud of what you got and remember that it is called the AMERICAN pit bull terrier


what your missing is that before it was the APBT it was the Pit Bulldog< which diverged into 3 distinct dogs, APBT, the Boston and the AMBulldog/Blue Blood Bulldog type.. All were pit dogs but who because they were no longer pit dogs lost Pit in their name? Because of the influx of game dogs tossed in the [] looking for a consistant genetic trait in the MIND, that kept the pit bulldog around, regardless of what history book you believe next the APBT is the direct decendant, if NOT bred for gameness then you lose the dog that earns the title "pit" signifying the invisible game gene, the onlything PURE left from the TRUE Bulldog. What else would the APBT be the mascot for the U.S. during WWI and WWII?? Game. IMO you destroy the game dog, you destroy the APBT, you destroy the APBT you destroy the only REAL.. American DOG.. Been here since the boats landed and every boat had some dogs with some get some


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## Saint Francis

william williamson said:


> theirs something many folks miss out on because they don't have that old guy to talk to.
> I can't tell you how many good dogs were given away by the ripe old age of 4-6 mos. by dogmen.
> many of them could look at the way they move,they watched every aspect of their personality.what they did when they played or ate.how they dominated others.whether they would back down from A tussle.
> I've seen them pull A dog from A litter and farm it out.be it good looking,for show,or questionable as to their temperament.
> theirs 2 things they watched for randomly.ear pickers or pups that had A penchant for back legs.2 things that make hoggin easy.ear holds and leggin them out.
> yup,don't got to say it.sometimes they were wrong.yet, for the most part they weren't wrong often.
> old man Chavis was my friend.he was one of the best.with his big yellow john dog,an ugly cuss, but one day he picked it up and told us he was a special dog.
> they were alot better for the breed than many of the people that still game them, and by far alot of those who have them and don't fight them.
> they breed them randomly,they take them to dog parks,they let them dominate they let them jump fences and run wild,they don't kennel them with other breeds.
> and what do we get to hear?the fools epitath.
> I never,"GASP" thought my dog would do that.


That's painting with a mighty broad stroke to assume that because people don't fight there dogs and live the life of the old dogman then they will just let their dogs run the streets looking for trouble. Why does everything have to be so black and white? How many people on this forum do you think operate this way? I'm not trying to be difficult but I'm also not going to feel ashamed for not paricipating in dog fighting. OK, for example, the gun was created to kill like the pit bull was bred (not necessarily meant) to fight. Since we all know that the gun can be used recreationally in sport, does this make it any less of a gun? No. Then why treat the pit bull any different?


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## Firehazard

What is gray?? Gray = Fuzzy .. Not CLEAR.. SO.. either you know WHITE or you don't BLACK because your in the light=knowledge or your in the dark= the unknown..

Those who want it all to be in the gray want it to be unclear.. Why??

It is; or it ain't~


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## gamer

Saint Francis said:


> This is very easy to say from the comfort of a lazy boy recliner on a lab top computer. This country has alot of faults, show me one that doesn't, but it ain't all bad either. As they say, "love it or leave it". This country doesn't put a gun to your head forcing you to stay here, but I could find you a country that would. Just saying, be proud of what you got and remember that it is called the AMERICAN pit bull terrier


lol you read my mind I am actually considering moving to another country just a lot of hoops to go through. Glad you didnt say it was a free country :rofl:


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## william williamson

Saint Francis said:


> That's painting with a mighty broad stroke to assume that because people don't fight there dogs and live the life of the old dogman then they will just let their dogs run the streets looking for trouble. Why does everything have to be so black and white? How many people on this forum do you think operate this way? I'm not trying to be difficult but I'm also not going to feel ashamed for not paricipating in dog fighting. OK, for example, the gun was created to kill like the pit bull was bred (not necessarily meant) to fight. Since we all know that the gun can be used recreationally in sport, does this make it any less of a gun? No. Then why treat the pit bull any different?


not really.we here about it all to often.from the media to those who show up here the day after.
no one wants to make,well I don't want you or anyone to feel any shame whatsoever.that would defeat the purpose of debate.
thats when people bring their info,be it from A source, or hands on experience.
and just because someone doesn't have either their feelings shouldn't be disqualified.
as to treating bulldogs differently,I'm not trading my recreational .41 magnum redhawk for A starter pistol any time soon.


----------



## Saint Francis

Firehazard said:


> What is gray?? Gray = Fuzzy .. Not CLEAR.. SO.. either you know WHITE or you don't BLACK because your in the light=knowledge or your in the dark= the unknown..
> 
> Those who want it all to be in the gray want it to be unclear.. Why??
> 
> It is; or it ain't~


To view in the Black or White = tunnel vision, a failure to use one's peripheral vision; blanketed statements arise

Gray = open mindedness; allowing for more than one conclusion

"Nothing is ever what it seems"


----------



## Saint Francis

william williamson said:


> not really.we here about it all to often.from the media to those who show up here the day after.
> no one wants to make,well I don't want you or anyone to feel any shame whatsoever.that would defeat the purpose of debate.
> thats when people bring their info,be it from A source, or hands on experience.
> and just because someone doesn't have either their feelings shouldn't be disqualified.
> as to treating bulldogs differently,I'm not trading my recreational .41 magnum redhawk for A starter pistol any time soon.


Or me my Kimber .45ACP Government model


----------



## Firehazard

gamer said:


> lol you read my mind I am actually considering moving to another country just a lot of hoops to go through. Glad you didnt say it was a free country :rofl:


I wish everyone who didn't HONOR the Democratic Republic founded by the Constitution of the United States of America and thought this was a capitalist country, or wants MORE government control who just MOVE to a place in Euroupe that already has it. Look we practice free interprise in free market and that is summed up with capitalism, but capitalism is also a way of government  See how we confuse ourselves and take rights away from ourselves by how we percieve the truth? I've been considering it, waiting for a few more socialist feet to drop and I will just have to do so, because its not like these PRESIDENTS undo what the other has done, IMPERIALIST they all pee through the same quilt.. Why are people afraid to be free, why don't people realize we have the same freedom to earn money and buy houses as those in China or Iran or Brazil all these countries that are COMMUNIST.. in FASHION of government... Freedom isn't about commerce..

There is a diference in knowing what freedom is from the illusion of freedom, 

Long live the American Pit Bull Terrier the last game bred dog.. SEE your missing it.. There are fighting dogs throughout the world, but they don't allow APBTs to match them, APBTs are in a class all of their own.. More than fighting dog..


----------



## gamer

Firehazard said:


> I wish everyone who didn't HONOR the Democratic Republic founded by the Constitution of the United States of America and thought this was a capitalist country, or wants MORE government control who just MOVE to a place in Euroupe that already has it. Look we practice free interprise in free market and that is summed up with capitalism, but capitalism is also a way of government  See how we confuse ourselves and take rights away from ourselves by how we percieve the truth? I've been considering it, waiting for a few more socialist feet to drop and I will just have to do so, because its not like these PRESIDENTS undo what the other has done, IMPERIALIST they all pee through the same quilt.. Why are people afraid to be free, why don't people realize we have the same freedom to earn money and buy houses as those in China or Iran or Brazil all these countries that are COMMUNIST.. in FASHION of government... Freedom isn't about commerce..
> 
> There is a diference in knowing what freedom is from the illusion of freedom,
> 
> Long live the American Pit Bull Terrier the last game bred dog.. SEE your missing it.. There are fighting dogs throughout the world, but they don't allow APBTs to match them, APBTs are in a class all of their own.. More than fighting dog..


Yeah most americans dont know just how NOT free we are. That we are not doing what the founders intended for this great country. Fire some with me we can go find a place and build two houses on it, have our dogs and shoot PETA members who trespass


----------



## william williamson

Saint Francis said:


> Or me my Kimber .45ACP Government model


thats A fine weapon.


----------



## Firehazard

Saint Francis said:


> To view in the Black or White = tunnel vision, a failure to use one's peripheral vision; blanketed statements arise
> 
> Gray = open mindedness; allowing for more than one conclusion
> 
> "Nothing is ever what it seems"


I've been told I'm the most open minded person many people know from my yoga instructer to my psych prof to my friends in ministry to all those who debate with me on political issues.. I call it how it is, not how I see it.. How do philosophers and mathmaticians come to the same conclusions like stars are or have enitities within them. Don't get it twisted. WHITE and BLACK is reffering to DAY and NIGHT.. the GRAY is when we are sleepy eyed either falling or rising, when your awake you see the LIGHT= WHITE..

Those who can see will see those who can hear will hear; all others are lost... We can't make each other understand what we refuse to see.. I used to be the guy who stated the same thing about the GRAY area as you are, but I was on a bandwagon of mis use of terminology.. The reality is either we can see or we can't..


----------



## Firehazard

Gun is a tool used to kill, either for hunting, home defense, self defense or M/P action.. all killing  I call the my APBT my .45 on command =D Because I like a good kill dog, with the dignity of a "gentlemen".


----------



## Saint Francis

Firehazard said:


> I wish everyone who didn't HONOR the Democratic Republic founded by the Constitution of the United States of America and thought this was a capitalist country, or wants MORE government control who just MOVE to a place in Euroupe that already has it. Look we practice free interprise in free market and that is summed up with capitalism, but capitalism is also a way of government  See how we confuse ourselves and take rights away from ourselves by how we percieve the truth? I've been considering it, waiting for a few more socialist feet to drop and I will just have to do so, because its not like these PRESIDENTS undo what the other has done, IMPERIALIST they all pee through the same quilt.. Why are people afraid to be free, why don't people realize we have the same freedom to earn money and buy houses as those in China or Iran or Brazil all these countries that are COMMUNIST.. in FASHION of government... Freedom isn't about commerce..
> 
> There is a diference in knowing what freedom is from the illusion of freedom,
> 
> Long live the American Pit Bull Terrier the last game bred dog.. SEE your missing it.. There are fighting dogs throughout the world, but they don't allow APBTs to match them, APBTs are in a class all of their own.. More than fighting dog..


Hear, hear long live the gamebred pit bull, no argument here. We will just have to agree to dissagree on the fighting issue until you convince me otherwise. Well, you fellas have been 3 and 4 doggin' me all night and I still came back scratchin'. I'm as game as the next but now I'm going out like a rank cur to catch some zzzzzzs. Oh geez, I'm starting to speak your language LOL!!!


----------



## Saint Francis

Firehazard said:


> Gun is a tool used to kill, either for hunting, home defense, self defense or M/P action.. all killing  I call the my APBT my .45 on command =D Because I like a good kill dog, with the dignity of a "gentlemen".


My guns have never killed anything but have had alot of targets screaming bloody murder!!!


----------



## MISSAPBT

Saint Francis said:


> Hear, hear long live the gamebred pit bull, no argument here. We will just have to agree to dissagree on the fighting issue until you convince me otherwise.


Love live the gamebred pitbull? its not going to live long without dogfighting.


----------



## Saint Francis

MISSAPBT said:


> Love live the gamebred pitbull? its not going to live long without dogfighting.


Game bred NOT game tested, so I've been told


----------



## Saint Francis

Listen, you guys get it legalized and then we'll talk. But I'm not going to be your toughest opponent. You have to see this issue from all viewpoints if you are to sell your pitch Good night to all and to all a good night


----------



## MISSAPBT

Saint Francis said:


> Game bred NOT game tested, so I've been told


Cant have a gamebred dog without a game tested in the ped.

_Some people refer game bred as - descendants of game parents and some people- descendants of game ancestors within 4 generations._

Thats going to QUICKLY die out

Just another quick refrence

_"Gamebred dog" to me means a dog that is from gamebred stock tested/proven or not. Can be a "gamedog" "Cold" or a "cur"

"Gamedog" to me means a dog that was tested and proven to be game.

"Cur" to me means a dog that was game tested and quit._


----------



## coppermare

Sorry I ran out on ya SF, but FH speaks some other language about half the time to my ears. It's like listening to a politician going in circles and making no sense. No offense FH just my brain no comprehend yours. Gamer is a slippery one...hahahaha he likes jumping fence and coming back to confuse you. Sometimes we just all have to agree that we see and feel differently about issues.


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## American_Pit13

Psst Gamer is a girl  

Good conversation and debate you guys. Make sure to keep it clean


----------



## 9361

Good posting tonight all! lol I didn't expect this thread to turn out to be much.


----------



## money_killer

i like dr.phill until now wanker ...


and im going to put it out there if dog fighting was legal or i was around when it was legal i would be involved in it


----------



## pitbullmamanatl

Firehazard said:


> The beauty part of America is OUR forefathers left it in PLACE for US to decide FOR US not the Government.. *Sorry I feel the government should watch our borders and provide schools, and stay out of our lives .. Thats why I am registered Republican*, no Im not rich, I honor the freedom we have because of that piece of paper that consistantly gets amendended to make less freedom and more control, enforcing dependancy
> 
> Buy American.. Esspecially your dogs  As a Comanche I can value a good horse and good dog above almost anything other than a good gun  I also recognize Imperialism as thats what Comanches were, it was Comanchera, before the U.S. Dragoons, and Calvary.. later becoming the U.S. ARMY.


:clap::clap::goodpost: Word!!


----------



## Saint Francis

MISSAPBT said:


> Cant have a gamebred dog without a game tested in the ped.
> 
> _Some people refer game bred as - descendants of game parents and some people- descendants of game ancestors within 4 generations._
> 
> Thats going to QUICKLY die out
> 
> Just another quick refrence
> 
> _"Gamebred dog" to me means a dog that is from gamebred stock tested/proven or not. Can be a "gamedog" "Cold" or a "cur"
> 
> "Gamedog" to me means a dog that was tested and proven to be game.
> 
> "Cur" to me means a dog that was game tested and quit._


So after 34 years of non fighting are you suggesting that the REAL APBT is in fact gone? I mean should we call this site gocur.com? I mean we have one person who just responded that he/she would be involved in the fighting if it was legal, so what say you the other 12000 members on this site, would you put your pride and joy in the pit just to satisfy some definition? Honestly. I think this is a good question. No one will point any fingers, just be honest with yourselves. I have stated that if matching dogs was done in a more regulated manner without risk of major injuries or any coersion that I would be forced to rethink my position. Anybody?


----------



## aus_staffy

I would not put my dogs in the []. Partly because I honestly wouldn't have the stomach for it and partly because they probably wouldn't be any good. They're from show lines not working lines.

Having said that, I wouldn't stand in the way of anyone who wanted to be involved with it (assuming it was legal and all rules and protocols were being observed).

Somehow I think this deserves its own thread, hah!


----------



## Black Rabbit

Firehazard said:


> Gun is a tool used to kill, either for hunting, home defense, self defense or M/P action.. all killing


OMG this just reminded me of something  Very off topic guys sorry.

As a professional tattoo artist it really bothers me to hear people say "tattoo gun" I always say "A gun is used to kill" Every time I hear someone refer to it as a gun I quickly respond with "It's not a gun, it's a machine"

For anyone looking for a legit tattoo artist if they call their tattoo machine a "gun" please go somewhere else for your skins sake


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## Firehazard

you know where I stand, and have seen my dogs pedigree, I have a APBT from proven APBTs not merely registered APBTs.. If you don't understand how that works, well you'll need a few more books and a few more years.. I don't argue to be right; I argue to prove that others are wrong.. Early to bed, early to rise, keeps you healthy, young, and wise  No worries Coppermare, even though I speak as near to CrAyOn as possible I do spin people in circles including the crooked polliticians that don't do anything good for us.. When I start talking in philosophy or psych, LOL, my profs say alright class "over your head and under you feet.." I'm that guy, who calls out everybody esspecially myself, people are so full of it, and proud not knowing what they think they know


----------



## wild_deuce03

gamer said:


> Yeah most americans dont know just how NOT free we are. That we are not doing what the founders intended for this great country. Fire some with me we can go find a place and build two houses on it, have our dogs and shoot PETA members who trespass


Don't know you so I'm not necessarily directing this at you, but MOST Americans also don't know how GOOD and FREE they've got it unless they've lived in another a country or served in a third world he!! hole!


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

MISSAPBT said:


> Gamedogs are fighting dogs. im sure she doesnt have those.
> Gamebred is diffrent, i think that litle cutie tan one she has (riot) is gamebred
> 
> Rules are made to be broken, yes BUT it is a sport, if a rule is broken then there is a disqualification. there for the rule braker is the loser.


She has both....... Tasha is a rehab dog.


----------



## mypitgia

when paris hilton makes sense you know somethings seriously wrong.


----------



## Firehazard

being game bred is more than being just a fighting dog.. There are renowned fighting dogs throughout the world Kangal, Tibetian Mastiff, Tosa.. and others all in which do not allow the game bred APBT in their matches.. Being a game dog is more than being a fighter, its being able to hold on, take all in which any bull/bear/dog/ANYTHING can dish out as long as they can dish it out, then finish the job on top~  Being game just means you can out fight the fighter, out catch the catchdog, out run the corsing dog (APBTs have ran and won against Greyhounds and been bred into stock, before they closed the dog park I witnessed a few APBT racers SHHHH!! mums the word) out swim the water dog and just plain out work the working dog at all aspects, but thats JMO.. My game test and breeding practices made predators out of my dogs, so I had them all sterilized.. I would run my dogs for miles (already conditioned) then engage in a hog no less than 200, I have also ran over 15 miles and put a single dog out in a band of coyotes (band is 10+) I have also ran for miles and miles in the mts to engage in bear.. If the dogs can go through all that running and stay hot so that they engage w/out any curring traits, I kept them for the program if not, I had them sterilized or euthanized..Of course they had to be stable with my 6kids... I'm done with that; I have my hunting dogs.. But I wouldn't have them if it wasn't for Hooches sire Holts Jocko a proven dog of 2/3 Jocko and 1/3 redboy. Now I just want to gather a few gyps no more than 3 of the best proven bloodlines in the nation, to use Bozz Hog aka Hoagie as foundation stud; to keep the real bulldog alive..


----------



## ThaLadyPit

Just wanted to let everyone know, this is the same episode that aired a couple months back that everyone was up in arms about... anyone remember the thread about it? I'll see if I can find it and post it here for ya'll... just lettin ya know.

Good news is, my "old man" was all enthralled in the tv yesterday... said it was actually pissin him off! So, I'm actually getting thru to this man that our beloved breed isn't as bad as he thought they were!

ETA: Here's the link... http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/26303-dr-phil.html


----------



## coppermare

american_pit13 said:


> Psst Gamer is a girl
> 
> Good conversation and debate you guys. Make sure to keep it clean


Ohhhhh sorry Gamer, I think someone here thought I was a guy at first also.
Musta been a non horse person though cause I'm quite sure a mare is female. LOL


----------



## coppermare

Saint Francis said:


> So after 34 years of non fighting are you suggesting that the REAL APBT is in fact gone? I mean should we call this site gocur.com? I mean we have one person who just responded that he/she would be involved in the fighting if it was legal, so what say you the other 12000 members on this site, would you put your pride and joy in the pit just to satisfy some definition? Honestly. I think this is a good question. No one will point any fingers, just be honest with yourselves. I have stated that if matching dogs was done in a more regulated manner without risk of major injuries or any coersion that I would be forced to rethink my position. Anybody?


Good one. I'd like to hear those answers also. And since we're talking about this let me "come clean". When I was younger I liked dog fights. I had mostly mutts and there were no leash laws then. I had a very DA collie/GS cross that fought anything. And I liked it. As a young adult I got my first weimaraner. This is one breed that I promise you is so very much underestimated. At ten months old he jumped on a fully grown GSD (accident at an apartment). When he got grown I had to get rid of my GSD because they ended up in a fight and the homemade breaking stick is all that saved my GSD's life. I had a small benji looking mutt named Cookie that belonged to my three year old son then. An APBT, white english or whatever he was (my grandmother use to own them solid white, head like a staffordshire bull terrier but a little taller this one was) the bulldog and a austrailian shepherd came a half mile up my driveway and they each had an end of Cookie and tore him apart. No apparent reasoning for it. I visited the neighbors and informed them I was going to kill their dogs. One day the bulldog showed up in my yard. My Weim went out to greet him. They took that stance. You know the hair raised up and circling each other? Well I took my foot and shoved them into each other. The bulldog got his arse kicked. At the ripe old age of 10 he went onto a chow's front porch and kicked his. He caught a baby deer one day out in the woods. He was a cat killer. My son witnessed him kill his kitten. It was horrible and traumatic for my child. You could meow like a cat and he'd tear your entire house apart looking for it. He caught EVERYTHING he went after. Why? They are called the gray ghost. They stalk like a cat. I'd watch him take ever how long it took to catch something. He froze like a statue, always his gaze upon the prey. He moved one foot at a time, inch at a time. If you've ever watched a cat it's exactly the same thing. If the prey took notice and ran he took off, we'd clocked him 30 mph uphill. 
I love Weimaraners like FH loves APBT's. They were bred to hunt bear and wild boar. A very small percentage of people use them to hunt at all any longer. Most of the hunting ability is bred out of them. Am I upset? Not at all. His "gameness" got me into more trouble than I could afford. It was stressful to say the least. The one I own now has that "hunt" to him but nowhere near as strong (mostly bred out). He doesnt roll in horse poop and dead stuff. He doesnt travel off miles when he catches a scent. He doesnt try to kill small animals (like cats). He doesnt take chase to anything that runs. So if breeding that out of the "bully" is happening...hey I'm all for it!!
I would NEVER put my dog in a fight today. It was a really stupid thing to do then. I was mad and wanted revenge. I should have taken the revenge upon myself not my dog. My dog had nothing to do with it. What if he'd had gotten killed? How would I have felt?
I have no need to PROVE anything. People that need to prove things lack confidence and true strentgh and integrity. Even if it was regulated it would still be barbaric. People fighting each other is stupid but people have a choice. The dogs do not. If a dog wants to fight his own kind all the time and has been bred to do so then you've bred an idiot. A psycho. A serial killer. He is a predator and I can see being bred to hunt for food, that drive, and I can see him "wanting" to defend his pack and hunt for the pack. But wanting to just kill all others of his kind? That's not much pack mentality. It's not natural. Not for humans, not for animals. 
I understand fighting dogs back then were not pets. They were "livestock". People today have that view of horses. Sorry, I'm still the same there. They are my "pets" a part of my family. I have feelings for them. It's just who I am. I have feelings for ALL living creatures......

P.S I don't think it'll ever be back nor regulated. When it does, we'll be televising electricution by the electric chair as entertainment. Then again the way our morals are going, it could be possible. Hope I'm not around then.


----------



## Pitcrew

MISSAPBT said:


> Cant have a gamebred dog without a game tested in the ped.
> 
> _Some people refer game bred as - descendants of game parents and some people- descendants of game ancestors within 4 generations._
> 
> Thats going to QUICKLY die out
> 
> Just another quick refrence
> 
> _"Gamebred dog" to me means a dog that is from gamebred stock tested/proven or not. Can be a "gamedog" "Cold" or a "cur"_
> 
> _"Gamedog" to me means a dog that was tested and proven to be game._
> 
> _"Cur" to me means a dog that was game tested and quit._


Truer words have never been typed.:goodpost:


----------



## coppermare

Pitcrew said:


> Truer words have never been typed.:goodpost:


How are they tested?


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

they are fought


----------



## Firehazard

if you look at the rules from the 4 corners of USA and compare them to the fighting dog rules of fighting dogs still being bred for fighting in their own country, you will see that they are matched, contested.. rules and regulations like a boxing match, no curs allowed... 

The reason the game test is contesting is because 2 game dogs want to hook up and will not cause the damage you all see and read from the media.. I had a 6hr brawl watch and noted by the Joplin PD back in 2002 and they deemed it a dominance dispute, issued me some warnings as they were there when I got home, My Jocko dog Hooch and My Lighnter/CHFredT CHBullsht dog hooked up after Hooch broke the window ran accrossed the covered and locked 6X8X10 stock pen turned into a dog kennel to house my females when in heat, and jumped on Turok the PO arrived others arrived ACO arrived and they all watched two dogs "fight" wrestle and grapple until worn completely out, then the two males collapsed and chilled about 5-10ft away from each other, both with hold marks on legs and neck was a easy clean up, and a good way to become welknown to the city of Jtown. Deemed dominance dispute because no one was home, I was at work, and the house dog broke the window to fight with the yard dog over a bitch in heat.. That is an ACO with a good brain.. any other would be racked up for sure present or not. My point, they wanted to and the city officials seen that they wanted to, and also kept Turok giving him back early because he was ripping dogs through the kennels.. But they all revered how ppl friendly and how obediant they were. Saying once again, thats what a APBT should be.. ((CHUCKLES)) because they watched a yard match of two HIGHLY conditioned dogs in a very small back yard of a house not even 800 sq ft, and still said such about my dogs.. with all those witnesses that was a game test of two dogs from proven stock and they didn't even realize they were spectating. ((sarcasm))


----------



## coppermare

Firehazard said:


> if you look at the rules from the 4 corners of USA and compare them to the fighting dog rules of fighting dogs still being bred for fighting in their own country, you will see that they are matched, contested.. rules and regulations like a boxing match, no curs allowed...
> 
> The reason the game test is contesting is because 2 game dogs want to hook up and will not cause the damage you all see and read from the media.. I had a 6hr brawl watch and noted by the Joplin PD back in 2002 and they deemed it a dominance dispute, issued me some warnings as they were there when I got home, My Jocko dog Hooch and My Lighnter/CHFredT CHBullsht dog hooked up after Hooch broke the window ran accrossed the covered and locked 6X8X10 stock pen turned into a dog kennel to house my females when in heat, and jumped on Turok the PO arrived others arrived ACO arrived and they all watched two dogs "fight" wrestle and grapple until worn completely out, then the two males collapsed and chilled about 5-10ft away from each other, both with hold marks on legs and neck was a easy clean up, and a good way to become welknown to the city of Jtown. Deemed dominance dispute because no one was home, I was at work, and the house dog broke the window to fight with the yard dog over a bitch in heat.. That is an ACO with a good brain.. any other would be racked up for sure present or not. My point, they wanted to and the city officials seen that they wanted to, and also kept Turok giving him back early because he was ripping dogs through the kennels.. But they all revered how ppl friendly and how obediant they were. Saying once again, thats what a APBT should be.. ((CHUCKLES)) because they watched a yard match of two HIGHLY conditioned dogs in a very small back yard of a house not even 800 sq ft, and still said such about my dogs.. with all those witnesses that was a game test of two dogs from proven stock and they didn't even realize they were spectating. ((sarcasm))


I just don't get it. What do you mean they didn't cause damage? The two here I saw fight was horrible. The damage was bad. And the one would have been dead if not for us there. And yes they fought over a dog in heat. ALL DOGS WILL!!! Not that they WANT to necessarily but it's just instinct. I don't want to jump off a burning building but instinct tells me if I don't I may die.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

coppermare said:


> I just don't get it. What do you mean they didn't cause damage? The two here I saw fight was horrible. The damage was bad. And the one would have been dead if not for us there. And yes they fought over a dog in heat. ALL DOGS WILL!!! Not that they WANT to necessarily but it's just instinct. I don't want to jump off a burning building but instinct tells me if I don't I may die.


The way these dogs have been selectively bred was to bite and hold, not to be mouthy and move from different parts of the body. That is the main difference besides the tenacity between a pit bull fight and any other breed.

I had a few accidental instances a few years back where the dogs went at it for more than 40 minutes (one I wasn't home for, and one I had woke up to the brawl and I wasn't prepared with a parting stick). I think after everything was all said and done, I had one fanged dog, with a swollen head, and another with one set of punctures on her right rear leg and one set around her ear. The second accident I had the result was very similar. Unlike many other breeds there are dogs that have their own "style" i reckon you'd call it. Some dogs are ear dogs, some dogs are leg dogs, some dogs are stomach dogs and some dogs are throat dogs. I was fortunate enough to have a head and leg dogs, and I was fortunate enough to have a dog bite the thigh not the femur.

My most recent incident, there was sever swelling on melony head and a few puncture wounds around her ear, where peggy had a large puncture between her jaw bone all the way through to under the tongue, and punctures all the way down her spine and through her feet and thighs.

Every accident I've had the wounds were all superficial thank god, but it is NOT superficial trying to split these dogs apart! Nothing that a cauterizer and a staple gun couldn't fix with minimal scaring.


----------



## Saint Francis

Firehazard said:


> being game bred is more than being just a fighting dog.. There are renowned fighting dogs throughout the world Kangal, Tibetian Mastiff, Tosa.. and others all in which do not allow the game bred APBT in their matches.. Being a game dog is more than being a fighter, its being able to hold on, take all in which any bull/bear/dog/ANYTHING can dish out as long as they can dish it out, then finish the job on top~  Being game just means you can out fight the fighter, out catch the catchdog, out run the corsing dog (APBTs have ran and won against Greyhounds and been bred into stock, before they closed the dog park I witnessed a few APBT racers SHHHH!! mums the word) out swim the water dog and just plain out work the working dog at all aspects, but thats JMO.. My game test and breeding practices made predators out of my dogs, so I had them all sterilized.. I would run my dogs for miles (already conditioned) then engage in a hog no less than 200, I have also ran over 15 miles and put a single dog out in a band of coyotes (band is 10+) I have also ran for miles and miles in the mts to engage in bear.. If the dogs can go through all that running and stay hot so that they engage w/out any curring traits, I kept them for the program if not, I had them sterilized or euthanized..Of course they had to be stable with my 6kids... I'm done with that; I have my hunting dogs.. But I wouldn't have them if it wasn't for Hooches sire Holts Jocko a proven dog of 2/3 Jocko and 1/3 redboy. Now I just want to gather a few gyps no more than 3 of the best proven bloodlines in the nation, to use Bozz Hog aka Hoagie as foundation stud; to keep the real bulldog alive..


Firehazard, you have great compassion for this breed, no doubt, and I respect the hell out of you. I still believe that their are plenty of DA pups out there who could probably prove quite "game", if that's the word we are all stuck on here. Just look at half the stories on this site alone that involve DA situations and how everyone is all about putting a stop to that. A good deal of the stories involve dogs that most likely are not even game bred. I don't necessarily see any reason to take the DA any further. I don't want to think that the only way a dog is proven game is until it or the dog it's matched with is laying on the ground in a pool of its own blood. It seems extreme and reckless IMO. It's odd, I recently was discussing the APBT with a buddy who is not a fancier of the breed (doesn't like dogs period) and was ready for any question he could throw at me, but he then asked me, "Why would you want a DA dog anyway?" I was taken back for a second and didn't know how to explain it. You, yourself, just gave many accounts of the versatility of this breed in the above paragraph, so I believe we all can enjoy a plethora of activities with the APBT. So let's all smile and have fun with this breed and if we don't see eye to eye all the time, that's all right, it may be because you are taller than me HAHA!!! There, we've not only beaten a dead horse, but have managed to cremate it as well On to other topics friends!!!


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## MISSAPBT

Saint Francis said:


> I don't want to think that the only way a dog is proven game is until it or the dog it's matched with is laying on the ground in a pool of its own blood.


Its the only way, no nessisarily (sp) laying there in a pool of blood, if that dog wants to jump the box or cur out then sweet, match is over.


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## pitbullmamanatl

This is written by dog man Tom Garner. I think it is a good read . If you arent able to read it press "ctrl" and the "+" so that it will magnify and you should be able to read it. I think it might answer some questions for some people. *From Ray Fox's website about the history of dogfighting*


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## Saint Francis

Not bad Lauren, thank you for posting you little information finder


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## pitbullmamanatl

I posted this because I think it is important to know the history of the APBT, whether people like it or not. I mainly post this to show what happened most of the time in the [] and for those of you who have never read any of the books. For those that have never read any books about it* read the following from a dog man's own words: very seldom did a dog ever die in an OFFICIATED dog fight.* Of course it did happen but not like the media portrays it now. I don't condone dog fighting but I have a respect for the men who ultimately gave me the best dog I could have ever dreamed of having, no matter how strange he may be.
From former dog fighter Ray Fox (*he no longer fights dogs anymore*):



> *Back in the day I took a good friend to a dogfight. He had never been and begged me to take him. He told me he had it all wrong in his mind. He said he was shocked that they didn't make a sound like growling or snapping. He had seen dubbed news reels of pitbulls making all kinds of noise. This sound was added to attract the news watchers attention and make them think agonizing cries were part of the fight.When the truth of the matter is. All you here is the swift movement and wrestling motion that is in the pit seldom is a sound made. I'm going to tell the public a little about gameness. Don't do these things about testing a dog this day and time or you will go to jail. Gameness in a pitdog is unpredictable. *





> *Here is the way a dogfight was in the old days. First you place the weight of your dog with the pitbull fight crowd. Lets say you have a dog that you think will fight his best at 44 pounds. You tell the dogfight crowd. The dogs is open to match at 44 pounds. You also say whether it is a male or female. You might say you will fight him or her for a minimum of one thousand dollars to a maximum of $5000 dollars or what ever your heart desires to bet. $1000 to $5000 was about average in my day. Yet some dogfights by the drug crowd are up in the $50,000 range. This isn't the average bet and is a rare happening. Then both sides agree on a time set a couple of months in advance. Each side puts up around $200 to $1000 forfeit money. This is held by a trusted third party. Also their are several sets of rules dogfighters go by. These rules will be agreed on before the dogs are fought. This forfeit money is given to the opponent if the other man doesn't show up or his dog is over weight. That guarantees that a person doesn't work his or her dog for nothing. When they arrive the dogs are weighed and then each side washes the other sides dog. This helps get rid of any drug or poison that is put on the dog to stop the other dog from biting or fighting. There has also been a referee chosen in advance. The arena called a pit made of wood. It is square with two foot high walls and dogs have a 14 foot scratchline more or less. The term scratch is when the handler turns his dog loose and he has to run that 14 feet across to the other dog and mouth him or bite him is what I preferred. It is not really a so called pit. Because it stands two feet above ground level. At one time in the early days a pit may have been dug but not in my day. The dogs are brought to the pit after washing them and are held by the owners. With the dogs facing away from each other until the referee says face your dogs. Then the dogs are turned around and faced at each other and held till the referee says pit your dogs. The dogs fight till they make what is called a turn. They will occasionally turn their head away from the opponent. That is considered a sign of fear. Yet it doesn't always mean that. When this happens. The dogs are handled and taken to their corners. The dogs are held for an agreed amount of time facing away from the other dog. Then faced toward each other when the referee says face your dogs then the first dog that tuned usually will have to get to the other dog in 20 second or be counted out. Then they are handled every time they come out of hold and taken to opposite corners and then the dog that had to go across last time stays and his opponent has to come to him or be counted out. If no dog turns his head away during the fight. The dogs fight till they lay out of hold for an agreed amount of time. When this happens the down dog has to scratch then  they take turns. This keeps most dogs from getting killed or hurt bad. If one is hurt bad and can't go across or to tired or afraid to go across and is counted out. The fight is over. There are many different rules dogfighter go by. Cajun rules are the most popular when I was in the game. The different rules vary just a little. Very seldom is a dog permanently injured or a dog seldom gets killed like the media says in an officiated dogfight. I watch horse racing, boxing and football and can say. They have as many if not more permanent injuries plus many are killed. The main difference in dogfighting and other sports is that the main goal is to hurt or kill the opponent. I read on a ASPCA Web on their Dogfighting Faq page' ASPCA | Dog Fighting FAQ 'that dogmen cut their dogs tails and cut their ears short so they can fight better. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Anyone that fights dogs knows that a dog uses its tail for balance. So they leave their tails long. They also know that if their ears are long that is an advantage for a fighting dog. When a dog likes to fight a dogs ears. A long ear will stretch farther than a cut ear and the dog that is getting bit on the long ear can stretch and get a hold where he can't get a hold with his mouth when a dogs is holding him tight on his short ear. A dog will always get deeper on a short ear because he is closer to the head. New Laws and big money rewards are in place to get you. I've been told that one group is offering $5,000 reward. Two other groups are offering $10,000 each. So the total for turning someone in and getting A conviction is $25,000. Your so called best friend might turn you in for $25,000. So you better not try fighting dogs this day and time. Unless you like to be locked up. Oh I know your crowd is safe and you trust them. No wonder you still fight dogs 'your stupid'. Many a man has went to prison using trust as his keeper. *


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## MISSAPBT

Rep your way PBM thats a great post


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## pitbullmamanatl

MISSAPBT said:


> Rep your way PBM thats a great post


Thanks! Appreciate it!!


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## coppermare

MISSAPBT said:


> Rep your way PBM thats a great post


I didn't even finish reading it, I was laughing so hard. It's pretty much it in a nutshell as far as "gameness". How are you going to prove it when dead? LOL reminds me of a saying my mama use to tell me when I was into fights. "Rave on cat****, one day someone will come along and cover you up". There is ALWAYS someone bigger and badder. Moral of the story. 
"If he doesn't die then he wasn't truely tested was he?" "If there is only one degree of gameness and that degree is dead gameness and we have game testing as our objective then the irony is that just as we are proving the worth of our dog, we are proving our own stupidity as we are destroying our own worthy dog"

Idigo, then I must have only known the throat ones. My grandmothers went straight for the throat and that is what Leanitis does. And all it takes is the right puncture wound to the throat. My grandmother's shook by the throat, it was instant death with the smaller dogs and cat I saw him kill.


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## coppermare

Letting the opponent wash your dog while seeming smart could be dumb. It would give me a chance to slip a pill down your dog's throat.


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## MISSAPBT

Thats nice you are laughing at your dogs history. As its so so halarious


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## Saint Francis

While I hear that alot did not die in the [], some still did and I have the Stratton books to prove it, but admittingly, as Stratton said that most deaths occurred after the fight due to shock. That doesn't make me feel any better. There are also stories of death outside the [] that are owner related, nudge nudge wink wink. In disagreeing with the dog fighting issue, I have never denied it as a part of their heritage, let's be clear on that. I like hearing about the relative professionalism that was shown in the [] world, but let's face it, human nature is excessive and abusive and I'm sure when the stakes got higher between owners, the price was sometimes paid by the dogs. Now, I don't mind having a pup that has got a little edge to him, it's my ego, but I don't think I could do that with my pup. I don't think most of the people on this site could either.


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## coppermare

MISSAPBT said:


> Thats nice you are laughing at your dogs history. As its so so halarious


I'm laughing at one intelligent dog man in that history had the sense to see just how idiotic fighting and proving something was.


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## MISSAPBT

But still he fought his dogs! Well bred gamedogs


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## jayandlacy

Saint Francis said:


> While I hear that alot did not die in the [], some still did and I have the Stratton books to prove it, but admittingly, as Stratton said that most deaths occurred after the fight due to shock. That doesn't make me feel any better. There are also stories of death outside the [] that are owner related, nudge nudge wink wink. In disagreeing with the dog fighting issue, I have never denied it as a part of their heritage, let's be clear on that. I like hearing about the relative professionalism that was shown in the [] world, but let's face it, human nature is excessive and abusive and I'm sure when the stakes got higher between owners, the price was sometimes paid by the dogs. Now, I don't mind having a pup that has got a little edge to him, it's my ego, but I don't think I could do that with my pup. I don't think most of the people on this site could either.


Thanks for that that is how I feel. I am well aware of the history, I can even appreciate it, but I know that I as a person do not have my dogs because of their history, and I myself could not do that with my dogs ever. My dogs are my kids, I'm not having any other human ones so these are what I have.


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## 9361

Well personally... I tend to like a dog that's a "bad @$$"... but thats just me.... lol


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## Saint Francis

Shes Got Heart said:


> Well personally... I tend to like a dog that's a "bad @$$"... but thats just me.... lol


Who doesn't? I openly admitted that as well. I'm just not sure I'm willing to go to the lengths that some are to prove it.


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## william williamson

Saint Francis said:


> Who doesn't? I openly admitted that as well. I'm just not sure I'm willing to go to the lengths that some are to prove it.


I was avid in the proving of the dogs.
now,we just settle for the dog in the shadow.
I will say though,runnin pigs is A test that proves the tennacity and never say die attitude.
bringing A dog along for A match is as much as the match most of the time.your working with a dog thats gonna be matched most of the time in it's weight class.their were some of us that would go up or down hill depending.
now,with pigs,you may have 2,3,or 4 dogs.and then they are on a 200 or 300# boar full of pi$$ and vinegar,3-6 ir tusk,they know exacly how to use them,and 4 cloven hoofs,that they have been delicately rooting with for their whole lives.


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## coppermare

MISSAPBT said:


> But still he fought his dogs! Well bred gamedogs


Amazing what people will do for money isn't it?


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## william williamson

coppermare said:


> Amazing what people will do for money isn't it?


great comeback,yet false.until you've got 10-30 dogs on your yard,and you take good care of them because everyones watching,you'll never know.
I hear and read the stories of people who have 1 or 2,maybe 3 dogs,and something happens and they are lookin for cheap this and cheap that,handouts for care,etc.
so really,think about it,dogs ain't cheap,to the point that folks become beggars.
and back in the day we didn't beg,we worked overtime,or took second jobs.


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## coppermare

william williamson said:


> great comeback,yet false.until you've got 10-30 dogs on your yard,and you take good care of them because everyones watching,you'll never know.
> I hear and read the stories of people who have 1 or 2,maybe 3 dogs,and something happens and they are lookin for cheap this and cheap that,handouts for care,etc.
> so really,think about it,dogs ain't cheap,to the point that folks become beggars.
> and back in the day we didn't beg,we worked overtime,or took second jobs.


How is that false? You yourself said bets and money were exchanged. You mean to tell me you participated for enjoyment? Either way......it was wrong.


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## aus_staffy

coppermare said:


> How is that false? You yourself said bets and money were exchanged. You mean to tell me you participated for enjoyment? Either way......it was wrong.


I think what he meant was that you spent more than you made back.


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## coppermare

aus_staffy said:


> I think what he meant was that you spent more than you made back.


Which means either...not to brilliant of a businessman, or a hobby=entertainment. My entertainment isn't based on something elses sacrifice.


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## MISSAPBT

coppermare said:


> My entertainment isn't based on something elses sacrifice.


Were not talking about your entertainment, were talking about dogmen and their gamedogs. We get it, its not your cup of tea.


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## 9361

I think this topic has been debated to the death.


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## coppermare

Shes Got Heart said:


> I think this topic has been debated to the death.


me to....
R.I.P TOPIC:woof:


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## william williamson

Shes Got Heart said:


> I think this topic has been debated to the death.


yep,like pushin A chain.my momma wouls beat me if she weren't dead.for arguin with what she would call A blind mind.


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## k8nkane

This has been an interesting thread, regardless. I like hearing different opinions and viewpoints.

I, for one, will probably never want to own a "gamebred" pit bull as I understand it to be through this thread. It's simply too much for me, and why own a dog you will never fully get to enjoy or who will never be explored to its full potential, even if it's just to run hogs down or what have you?

I have my two pups who are definitely not gamebred, but show instances and hints and little peeks at their heritage and that's enough for me. I have my Roxie who stood up and defended her brother when a rottweiler came lunging at him. I have my Kane who will go out into the middle of a lake and just swim around in circles for 30-45 mins even though he's tired, because he enjoys it so much.

I'm fine with that and don't love my pups any less for being not gamebred.


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## wild_deuce03

k8nkane said:


> This has been an interesting thread, regardless. I like hearing different opinions and viewpoints.
> 
> I, for one, will probably never want to own a "gamebred" pit bull as I understand it to be through this thread. It's simply too much for me, and why own a dog you will never fully get to enjoy or who will never be explored to its full potential, even if it's just to run hogs down or what have you?
> 
> I have my two pups who are definitely not gamebred, but show instances and hints and little peeks at their heritage and that's enough for me. I have my Roxie who stood up and defended her brother when a rottweiler came lunging at him. I have my Kane who will go out into the middle of a lake and just swim around in circles for 30-45 mins even though he's tired, because he enjoys it so much.
> 
> I'm fine with that and don't love my pups any less for being not gamebred.


:goodpost:


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## 9361

wild_deuce03 said:


> :goodpost:


Ditto, they ain't for everyone.


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## william williamson

k8nkane said:


> This has been an interesting thread, regardless. I like hearing different opinions and viewpoints.
> 
> I, for one, will probably never want to own a "gamebred" pit bull as I understand it to be through this thread. It's simply too much for me, and why own a dog you will never fully get to enjoy or who will never be explored to its full potential, even if it's just to run hogs down or what have you?
> 
> I have my two pups who are definitely not gamebred, but show instances and hints and little peeks at their heritage and that's enough for me. I have my Roxie who stood up and defended her brother when a rottweiler came lunging at him. I have my Kane who will go out into the middle of a lake and just swim around in circles for 30-45 mins even though he's tired, because he enjoys it so much.
> 
> I'm fine with that and don't love my pups any less for being not gamebred.


ya know,you'd have,30 years ago,had you shown an interest in the breed,and ooh'ed and ahh'ed over them, I'd have given you one.
we would have made A pinky promise,that you spay and neuter it,bring it by to say hello when you did,and you'd have gotten the coldest ice dog in the world.and it would have been some tight Jocko,or some Homer dog.we had some close Jeep,but under contract.
I'll bet you A minimum of 50-60% of dogs bred didn't make it from the kennel lot to the chain yard.
we usually would have A litter,watch them for 5-6 mos,pull up the ones we wanted and then farmed the others out.altered by the recipient person.
everybody had A 45# dog,and it was the hardest class to GC.alot of dogs were bred to be in this range,and many never felt A hook.


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## Firehazard

william williamson said:


> ya know,you'd have,30 years ago,had you shown an interest in the breed,and ooh'ed and ahh'ed over them, I'd have given you one.
> we would have made A pinky promise,that you spay and neuter it,bring it by to say hello when you did,and you'd have gotten the coldest ice dog in the world.and it would have been some tight Jocko,or some Homer dog.we had some close Jeep,but under contract.
> I'll bet you A minimum of 50-60% of dogs bred didn't make it from the kennel lot to the chain yard.
> we usually would have A litter,watch them for 5-6 mos,pull up the ones we wanted and then farmed the others out.altered by the recipient person.
> everybody had A 45# dog,and it was the hardest class to GC.alot of dogs were bred to be in this range,and many never felt A hook.


:goodpost:up:


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## 9361

Sounds like some fantastic dogs william.


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## buzhunter

It's your dog's gamebred roots that make him what he is and gives all the traits you love about him. As folks breed without testing, the dog fades away. You know the dog is the most versatile dog ever created and you can't possibly believe that it's a coincidence. The stable mind of the game dog is the foundation of the greatest dog. Can't have one without the other. Why do folks love "rocky" ? It's not because he's cute and a nice guy, it's cause he wouldn't quit. I don't care who you are, you'll cheer every time he says "cut me, Mick". Nobody ever cried for him, and nobody ever hated Mick for letting him scratch. Get it? Some people can appreciate a born fighter, some cannot.


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## pitbullmamanatl

buzhunter said:


> It's your dog's gamebred roots that make him what he is and gives all the traits you love about him. As folks breed without testing, the dog fades away. You know the dog is the most versatile dog ever created and you can't possibly believe that it's a coincidence. The stable mind of the game dog is the foundation of the greatest dog. Can't have one without the other. Why do folks love "rocky" ? It's not because he's cute and a nice guy, it's cause he wouldn't quit. I don't care who you are, you'll cheer every time he says "cut me, Mick". Nobody ever cried for him, and nobody ever hated Mick for letting him scratch. Get it? Some people can appreciate a born fighter, some cannot.


Freakin :goodpost::goodpost:
Brilliant comparison!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## buzhunter

Shes Got Heart said:


> I found this on youtube so far... guess its a repeat...
> 
> YouTube - Dr. Phil COnfronts Animal Abusers


LOL. He gets up and say's "test me". Beautiful.


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## Lex's Guardian

Yay for Rescue Ink & Doctor Phil... As for that fighter dude, what an backwards way of thinking... As my husband says, excuses are like bumholes - they go hand in hand & everyone's got one 

As for boxing, that's a human being making a personal choice out of his/her own awareness. An animal is being set up for failure in a MANMADE ring, working against it's own natural instincts... (Being sarcastic) I'm sure the two dogs who were about to fight mutually conversed one another & said, hey I'm bored, let's fight to the death but before hand let's set ourselves up a fight ring with our own paws & kick one another's butts... 

Just as I'm sure the fighters don't set up bait dogs, just like they 'don't' set up dog fighting rings. Premeditated b/s to make themselves look like less of the beasts they are... Watched waaay to many Silence of the Lamb movies if you ask me, no different than the Hannibal line or any other B/S politician who are good at masking their own wickedness.

Such hypocritical Mumbo Jumbo!!! Gah!!!   

For those who got caught up in that kind of lifestyle & try to do better now, learning from their past mistakes & properly educating other. I can respect that, ppl screw up - but to acknowledge wrongful doing, not learn from it & stand by it... Grrr


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## coppermare

Lex's Guardian said:


> Yay for Rescue Ink & Doctor Phil... As for that fighter dude, what an backwards way of thinking... As my husband says, excuses are like bumholes - they go hand in hand & everyone's got one
> 
> As for boxing, that's a human being making a personal choice out of his/her own awareness. An animal is being set up for failure in a MANMADE ring, working against it's own natural instincts... (Being sarcastic) I'm sure the two dogs who were about to fight mutually conversed one another & said, hey I'm bored, let's fight to the death but before hand let's set ourselves up a fight ring with our own paws & kick one another's butts...
> 
> Just as I'm sure the fighters don't set up bait dogs, just like they 'don't' set up dog fighting rings. Premeditated b/s to make themselves look like less of the beasts they are... Watched waaay to many Silence of the Lamb movies if you ask me, no different than the Hannibal line or any other B/S politician who are good at masking their own wickedness.
> 
> Such hypocritical Mumbo Jumbo!!! Gah!!!
> 
> For those who got caught up in that kind of lifestyle & try to do better now, learning from their past mistakes & properly educating other. I can respect that, ppl screw up - but to acknowledge wrongful doing, not learn from it & stand by it... Grrr


I thought we killed this thread? But, hey, I'm glad you said what I was thinking...LOL saved me the typing


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## 9361

I'm sorry but I've seen dogs fighting (by accident) and I've seen dogs that really really wanted to get at another dog. And the seemed pretty happy about wanting to do it. lol Just go to an ADBA show.... that's where you'll see some fired up bulldogs. Some dogs may not be cut out for fighting but I know there are a lot of pit bulls out there that WANT to fight. Just watching 2 pit bulls play is like watching a pit bull fight almost. I do agree with people that say that these dogs love to fight, especially game bred dogs. 

Has your dog ever torn up that big fluffy stuffed animal you bought him at petsmart and you giggled and took photo's and said "oh look at him go" Yeah... he's wishing that was another dog.. lol


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## Rudy4747

:pup: Got Heart said:


> I'm sorry but I've seen dogs fighting (by accident) and I've seen dogs that really really wanted to get at another dog. And the seemed pretty happy about wanting to do it. lol Just go to an ADBA show.... that's where you'll see some fired up bulldogs. Some dogs may not be cut out for fighting but I know there are a lot of pit bulls out there that WANT to fight. Just watching 2 pit bulls play is like watching a pit bull fight almost. I do agree with people that say that these dogs love to fight, especially game bred dogs.
> 
> Has your dog ever torn up that big fluffy stuffed animal you bought him at petsmart and you giggled and took photo's and said "oh look at him go" Yeah... he's wishing that was another dog.. lol


Right though it may be against the law and I do see how it hurts a breed, There is no mistaking the fact the a game bred dog, loves to fight.


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## buzhunter

Lex's Guardian said:


> As for boxing, that's a human being making a personal choice out of his/her own awareness. An animal is being set up for failure in a MANMADE ring, working against it's own natural instincts... (Being sarcastic) I'm sure the two dogs who were about to fight mutually conversed one another & said, hey I'm bored, let's fight to the death but before hand let's set ourselves up a fight ring with our own paws & kick one another's butts...


Actually, it's a man made dog acting upon it's man made instincts. Not much about a dog is natural. We have to remember that the dog was very deliberately created for the specific purpose of making another dog quit. Doesn't prove much to whip a dog that won't fight in the first place.


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## gamer

Lex's Guardian said:


> Yay for Rescue Ink & Doctor Phil... As for that fighter dude, what an backwards way of thinking... As my husband says, excuses are like bumholes - they go hand in hand & everyone's got one
> 
> As for boxing, that's a human being making a personal choice out of his/her own awareness. An animal is being set up for failure in a MANMADE ring, working against it's own natural instincts... (Being sarcastic) I'm sure the two dogs who were about to fight mutually conversed one another & said, hey I'm bored, let's fight to the death but before hand let's set ourselves up a fight ring with our own paws & kick one another's butts...
> 
> Just as I'm sure the fighters don't set up bait dogs, just like they 'don't' set up dog fighting rings. Premeditated b/s to make themselves look like less of the beasts they are... Watched waaay to many Silence of the Lamb movies if you ask me, no different than the Hannibal line or any other B/S politician who are good at masking their own wickedness.
> 
> Such hypocritical Mumbo Jumbo!!! Gah!!!
> 
> For those who got caught up in that kind of lifestyle & try to do better now, learning from their past mistakes & properly educating other. I can respect that, ppl screw up - but to acknowledge wrongful doing, not learn from it & stand by it... Grrr


You obviously have never seen a game bred pit bull. You have not seen a pit bull fight another pit bull, tails wagging, happy as a pig in poop to be doing what it wants to do. Thats like saying we shouldn't play fetch with a lab because really how many wild dogs play fetch with a rubber ball? Hell are a canines natural instincts to live in the house with small prey animals? How dare us let em all loose right now.


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## william williamson

evolution,it's the saddest state of affairs to ever affect the human being.
every one wants to disect with their opinion.
what sickens me more than A game dog is those whose opinion is based in, nothing.other than what they are fed by the media.
please,when you speak to A topic,share your experience,and maybe I can stop wiping the drink i spit when I'm laughing so hard at this doo.


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## Firehazard

BAIT DOG is a MEDIA HYPE TERM... NOT EVER USED BY DOG MEN.... I've herd some GHETTO FOLKS USE IT with crap GHETTO bred dogs... NEVER by any dogman of lore.

The dog that is practiced is a roll dog, and usually he is a roll dog because he's tried to kill everydog in the yard  that makes him the instigator and yes game dogs like to battle why else would the saying for APBTs in general "never trust an APBT not to fight."????? If your dog gets a taste of it, chances are it will _*like*_ it. IF it doesn't and it tries to turn or get away or immediately fold over on back those are cur traits and cur is a personality in canines from which breeds have adopted their name.... JUST LIKE GAME DOGs..

NO fighters (PEOPLE BOXERS) do not always get to choose their oppenent and sometimes are scared when they go into the ring, those that use that fear as fuel for courage going the distance they are proving they are "game" to themselves moreso than to anyone else.

In organized DF there is RARELY any deaths that you see from GHETTO yards and BACKWOODS tweekers that the media hypes all up to make you think in a certain fashion,PROPAGANDA, there are more fatalities in Football, and long term injuries in Boxing than the dogs of PROFESSIONAL men who love their dogs and YOU KNOW THAT BECAUSE THEY have 4 to 8 wins  Granted some dogs get mangled from poor [] management cause mind you there is a ref, a corner man for each dog, and a cut man .. just like in boxing.. So before you take a guy that practices in the old school fashion and put him on the same plate as ignorant ghetto and backwoods fools, than your taking away everything that makes this breed what it is, its HISTORIC bloodline; name says it all American PIT Bull Terrier, anyone who can't listen to this probably should choose a Bull Terrier as its entire being is the type of PROPAGANDA used to curve the mind of the people to accept a dog with energy and drive without so much the fight..



 all the APBT ppl, that desire owning that little stick of dynamite but dont want to deal with sweating nitro, need a dog like this Bull Terrier good all around dog BUT STILL THEY DON't HOLD A CANDLE TO AN APBT CAUSE... Theyre not GAME 

PS.. APBTs have been bred to feel no pain, or what we call a high pain tolerance, the book Dogs of Velvet and Steel, explains it all as does the TITLE..

Please don't put dogmen of legendary status or practice in the same boat with ghetto fide and twacked out barbarians who treat dogs like their expendable chickens for a cockfight, although a good rooster is valued, hahaha they're are plenty to go around and in Okla & HI we just ate the bird LOL


----------



## ThaLadyPit

Gotta spread rep before I can rep you again Stan, but thank you so much for that informative video about the BT! They're an awesome breed, as well, and just like you said, they're that little stick of dynamite, minus the Nitro, lol! Also, you're completely correct in stating that we shouldn't compare today's "dogmen" to the Dogmen of old days.


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## Firehazard

ThaLadyPit said:


> Gotta spread rep before I can rep you again Stan, but thank you so much for that informative video about the BT! They're an awesome breed, as well, and just like you said, they're that little stick of dynamite, minus the Nitro, lol! Also, you're completely correct in stating that we shouldn't compare today's "dogmen" to the Dogmen of old days.


I *love* watching this video.. Its a great example for people who think they want an APBT..


> _OF course this is a mexican bred dog(still good working dogs south of the border some of the worlds best), which obviously knew his about around the bull  _


 it makes me want a bull terrier:roll:, imagine all those who don't like to deal with DA well here ya go and you still get to stay on chats with ppl with bully breeds... (bully breeds as in all Bulldog/bull&terrier type dogs) and don't have to listen to whether or not your dog is defined by game 

hahaha sorry, ya'll was done with this thread but I couldn't help myself..


----------



## ThaLadyPit

Lol Stan... you're right though. I often have thought of getting a BT or an SBT.. similarities between the breeds, w/out all the excessive energy.


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

i think people inside the apbt community need to accept that the basis of what their dog is, is a fighting warrior. if a apbt is human aggressive without being provoked, kill it! a bullet to the head is alot less money, or pain to the animal, or owner than a pink juice shot at any vet office. it is my belief that the animal rights advocates created the "monster" apbt that we see in the news attacking people today. these animal lovers have problems with culling breeding programs. well guess what ya get when ya take a breed of dog that's been bred for hundreds of years to be human friendly through ethically correct culling breeding programs, cross the human loving dogs to apbt's that are bred for looks(NO ETHICALLY CORRECT BREEDING OF THIS BREED TO THE STANDARD) and noone knows the animals temperament? WE GET WHERE WE ARE TODAY!!! the apbt only recently as recent as the 1990's became the dog the press villafies! in the 80's the same kind of press articles were out about dobermans and rottweilers! culling is not a bad thing it is a great tool to correctly breed this breed of ours and countless other working breeds out there. and come on people think for yourselves use your own brain what is this crazy @#$% about bait dogs and wire their mouths shut to not bite back. i know old timers new timers and people in other countries i have never heard these things anywhere accept in the hsus backed press. would a heavy weight boxer train with a lightweight that has his hands tied behind his back?


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## Lex's Guardian

..................................


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## buzhunter

Lex's Guardian said:


> Each to their own dude... Really, I thought it was bred to help with difficult game???  But everyone knows more than the other . Obviously I have a well balanced breeder who knows ... Meh, just a 'tad more'.


Don't get mad at me, girl. I'm only trying to help you understand, ok? Why not just do some reading and draw your own conclusion. Research the famous dogs of the past, up to 1976, and see how much of their fame was gained herding cattle? You'll find that these dogs made their name in the box, not on the farm. For your breeder, I don't know what the knows or what he's spread but I do know that the only thing we have more of than "pit bull" breeders is "pit bull" experts. The old folks were there and some young folks (outside the USA, of course) are there today. I'd ask them. They've written plenty of first hand accounts, not hearsay.


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## MISSAPBT

Oh goodness Ive been away for two days i better get reading haha


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## Lex's Guardian

buzhunter said:


> Don't get mad at me, girl. I'm only trying to help you understand, ok? Why not just do some reading and draw your own conclusion. Research the famous dogs of the past, up to 1976, and see how much of their fame was gained herding cattle? You'll find that these dogs made their name in the box, not on the farm. For your breeder, I don't know what the knows or what he's spread but I do know that the only thing we have more of than "pit bull" breeders is "pit bull" experts. The old folks were there and some young folks (outside the USA, of course) are there today. I'd ask them. They've written plenty of first hand accounts, not hearsay.


True, true...

Second time this week I've made a jerk outta myself for 'summarize' reading & responding. My apologies 

Work's had me little more on edge than I realized. Really dude, sorry for snapping at you


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## william williamson

buzhunter said:


> I do know that the only thing we have more of than "pit bull" breeders is "pit bull" experts.


what constitutes an expert?


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## Firehazard

haha everyones an expert  Until they meet someone who knows more hahahaha

really??, a life long practitioner who is both "student and teacher" ... Dunno JMO


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## MISSAPBT

Lol @ FH, so right.


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## Firehazard

DOES ANYONE KNOW THE STORY ON THIS???? SOME KATRINA AFTERMATH...

I first came acrossed a video un 2005 or so and then later still shot clips... I believe its taken by a cop who shot the dogs... Dunno the video disapeared and the photos have been hard to find. Wonder how long it would have went on with out the PO or SDEP?


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## MISSAPBT

I saw these pics a while ago when i was early teens. Dont no the story behind it, but looks like they were having a blast lol


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## wild_deuce03

Firehazard said:


> DOES ANYONE KNOW THE STORY ON THIS???? SOME KATRINA AFTERMATH...
> 
> I first came acrossed a video un 2005 or so and then later still shot clips... I believe its taken by a cop who shot the dogs... Dunno the video disapeared and the photos have been hard to find. Wonder how long it would have went on with out the PO or SDEP?


I remember seeing those pics and hearing about the story. From what I can remember, the dogs were loose after the hurricane and were hungry. What better meal than that big ol' cow! LOL! Don't remember specifics on if the dogs charged the officer or anything.


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## DueceAddicTed

> and come on people think for yourselves use your own brain what is this crazy @#$% about bait dogs and wire their mouths shut to not bite back. i know old timers new timers and people in other countries i have never heard these things anywhere accept in the hsus backed press.


Actually I'm going to have to disagree from experience ... 
I had a friend who bred her bitch years ago, and I have told this before, she gave two of the pups to a family friend of her brothers. She called me one day that she got a call that there were 2 pups ( they were over a year old ) laying chewed up and shot in the head in the alley were we lived that looked like her pups. Sure enough they were, they weren't fighting dogs and since they weren't dude let his peoples use the pups as BAIT DOGS. Bait dogs have been around for years don't tell me that its made up cause I seen it, know of it and experienced it first hand!
The dog below MY Beloved protector, guardian and best friend was suppose to be a bait dog, I confiscated him from an idiot that I knew did not even like pitbulls but was terrified of them. His plan was to make a few quick bucks using 2 throw away pit pups, his first mistake was dropping him off at my home and leaving him with my 1st husband for me to take care of. I KEPT him and informed my first husband that if this dog is missing from my home he better be too. Your friendship with that loser or your life you choose.
Now let me tell you I had My Biggie for 10 years, he passed away in 2008 ... so I have known of baiting for over 12 years ... 








my son at age 6 w/ My Biggie








His last day with my son who was 13 years old in this photo... 









I just wanted to point that out ........


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## Lex's Guardian

DueceAddicTed said:


> Actually I'm going to have to disagree from experience ...
> I had a friend who bred her bitch years ago, and I have told this before, she gave two of the pups to a family friend of her brothers. She called me one day that she got a call that there were 2 pups ( they were over a year old ) laying chewed up and shot in the head in the alley were we lived that looked like her pups. Sure enough they were, they weren't fighting dogs and since they weren't dude let his peoples use the pups as BAIT DOGS. Bait dogs have been around for years don't tell me that its made up cause I seen it, know of it and experienced it first hand!
> The dog below MY Beloved protector, guardian and best friend was suppose to be a bait dog, I confiscated him from an idiot that I knew did not even like pitbulls but was terrified of them. His plan was to make a few quick bucks using 2 throw away pit pups, his first mistake was dropping him off at my home and leaving him with my 1st husband for me to take care of. I KEPT him and informed my first husband that if this dog is missing from my home he better be too. Your friendship with that loser or your life you choose.
> Now let me tell you I had My Biggie for 10 years, he passed away in 2008 ... so I have known of baiting for over 12 years ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my son at age 6 w/ My Biggie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His last day with my son who was 13 years old in this photo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just wanted to point that out ........


:goodpost:

*hugs*


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## DueceAddicTed

PS ... you can't change the history of our dogs. Accept it you aint gotta like it but it is what the hell it is. They are what they are because of how they were produced in the past. IF ya don't like it get another breed who's history your not ASHAMED of and can brag about. This is my breed, tough, bloody arse history with lots of love and loyalty. I wouldn't have it no other damn way.


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## Firehazard

DueceAddicTed said:


> Actually I'm going to have to disagree from experience ...
> I had a friend who bred her bitch years ago, and I have told this before, she gave two of the pups to a family friend of her brothers. She called me one day that she got a call that there were 2 pups ( they were over a year old ) laying chewed up and shot in the head* in the alley *were we lived that looked like her pups. Sure enough they were, they weren't fighting dogs and since they weren't dude let his peoples use the pups as BAIT DOGS. _Bait dogs have been around for years don't tell me that its made up cause I seen it, know of it and experienced it first hand!_The dog below MY Beloved protector, guardian and best friend was suppose to be a bait dog, I confiscated him from an idiot that I knew did not even like pitbulls but was terrified of them. His plan was to make a few quick bucks using 2 throw away pit pups, his first mistake was dropping him off at my home and leaving him with my 1st husband for me to take care of. I KEPT him and informed my first husband that if this dog is missing from my home he better be too. Your friendship with that* loser *or your life you choose.
> Now let me tell you I had My Biggie for 10 years, he passed away in 2008 ... so I have known of baiting for over 12 years ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my son at age 6 w/ My Biggie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His last day with my son who was 13 years old in this photo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just wanted to point that out ........





> BAIT DOG is a MEDIA HYPE TERM... *NOT EVER USED BY DOG MEN*.... I've herd some _GHETTO FOLKS _USE IT with crap GHETTO bred dogs or mistreated dogs... NEVER by any dogman of lore.


I know from kickin it the ghetto and being around while peeps was puttin there work in, thats a common mentality in any ghetto east to west coast and the midwest to the dirty south as well  Didn't you recently move from the ghetto to the sticks? If that wasn't you I mybad.. It just highlights the mentality behind the actions whether they be knowledable or ignorant.


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## MISSAPBT

Wannabes use bait dogs, a real dogmen would never use a 'baitdog' no need to, there gamedogs didnt need these! The'd school you dog to another gamedog.


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## buzhunter

william williamson said:


> what constitutes an expert?


Shoot, these day it seems like anybody who's ever laid there hands on anything that validates their own assumptions. Who's an expert? The proof is in the pudding


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## buzhunter

Lex's Guardian said:


> True, true...
> 
> Second time this week I've made a jerk outta myself for 'summarize' reading & responding. My apologies
> 
> Work's had me little more on edge than I realized. Really dude, sorry for snapping at you


No apology necessary. You know I love ya, girl.:hug:


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## william williamson

I don't have A clue what went on in the inner city when pits gained their prominence or notariety.
I do know that in the bowels of country hell their was no such thing as bait dogs.
sometimes you'd have someone put A possum or racoon in A crate in front of A treadmill.sometimes even the family cat or chicken,just anything to provoke the prey drive.
we had A golf cart and about A 2 1/2 mile road.with A 12' 2x4,and A divider.we could roadwork 2 dogs at A time.
the place I have heard of baiting in is in the city.and thats within the last 15-20 years.
I quit the gamedog thing for pretty much these reasons.I took A 4 year hiatus from gaming.
when I went and had me A looksee at A "dogfight,it was steroid dogs,dogs that were being touched and kicked in the box,when the match was over guys just drug the dogs out.they knew nothing about re-hydrating,suturing, or giving them an easy out.they all carried pistols,they just didn't have A clue about dispatching.
so,in essence,bait dogs could well be A reality.just not something A real dog man/handler would fathom.
we had dogs that were rolled into anything but A bait dog.I've rolled dogs 2 and 3 dogs deep for their testing.
sometimes you would have to roll a prospect dog during A sale/purchase.when your spending 5-6000 for a game dog,your not gonna stick some baitbag in their with it.


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## buzhunter

A man who really wanted to know what he had would test that dog honestly. Sure, people do all kinds of nasty things to dogs and I'm absolutely positive that some folks are ignorant enough to be proud of their dog beating on a weaker dog. That's just plain sick and a sure sign of a coward. Lemme at 'em...


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## Lex's Guardian

*Pardone the interuption...*

*Not to offend anyone, this always just cracked me up LoL*


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## buzhunter

Hahahaha! Funny you mentioned that. Looking back, I really gotta wonder about Paul Stanley. Don't no man in the world dance like that jack.


----------



## pitbullmamanatl

Firehazard said:


> I know from kickin it the ghetto and being around while peeps was puttin there work in, thats a common mentality in any ghetto east to west coast and the midwest to the dirty south as well  Didn't you recently move from the ghetto to the sticks? If that wasn't you I mybad.. It just highlights the mentality behind the actions whether they be knowledable or ignorant.


Hey, Atlanta is not the sticks!! lol


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## coppermare

Wow, I'm from the South, maybe I should brag about that Rebel flag, or the Klu Klux Klan? 
Hmmm I dunno my ancestors are from Germany, maybe I should brag about the Holocaust. 

I don't think the dogs in the pic were hungry. Predators would go for the throat I'd think. I think they were doing what they were "originally" bred to do. Bull baiting. "They are having a blast" ?? Really? Terrible that some poor farmer/rancher would lose a nice bull to two stray dogs. Or looters in that case. Guess the hurricane didn't take enough from them?


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## DueceAddicTed

NO ONE SAID THEY WERE DOG MEN NOR HAD DOG MEN MENTALITY. I KNOW NO WHERE IN MY POST DID I STATE THAT. MY POINT IN MY POST WAS THAT BAIT DOGS DO EFFIN EXIST GHETTO, HOOD , IDIOTS OR NOT IT EXIST. NOT A MEDIA HYPE NOT MADE UP LIKE THE BOOGIE MAN. REAL IDIOT CRAP ...

fire I wouldn't call this the part of GA I'm in the sticks lol ... and yes I came from the hoods of New York rested my head in several boroughs, born and bred. Lived in those hood streets playing a game called survival of the fittest. And I'm still here so I guess I survived it.


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## MISSAPBT

coppermare said:


> "They are having a blast" ?? Really?


Yes, really. Wouldn't have said it otherwise.


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## coppermare

LOL a "blast" right up the end when they got blasted.


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## Laughter777

Sorry had to delete my post, and not sure how. Re looked at the bull pics and while a couple of them loomed photoshopped, I just can't seem to post it...the rest seem to real!


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## william williamson

coppermare said:


> LOL a "blast" right up the end when they got blasted.


now your gettin it.
and Ted,just because some clown has A pit bull and puts him down does not make him a dog man.
the media hypes these clowns and tries desperately to prop them up on my porch.
theirs A difference in A dog man and A but licker.bait dogs are A part of the but lickin society.


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## coppermare

william williamson said:


> now your gettin it.
> and Ted,just because some clown has A pit bull and puts him down does not make him a dog man.
> the media hypes these clowns and tries desperately to prop them up on my porch.
> theirs A difference in A dog man and A but licker.bait dogs are A part of the but lickin society.


Having a blast doing what they do:
Pitbull........50 percent genetics..50 percent environment (dogmen)
Hannibal Lector
Jeffery Dommer (sp)....50 percent genetics..50 percent environment(parents)
Rapist, killers.ect.

Pitbull....100 PERCENT NO ACCIDENT/ INTENTIONAL
Psychos...WE'D LIKE TO THINK 50 PERCENT POSSIBLY ACCIDENTAL/ NON INTENTIONAL

NOW YOUR GETTIN IT


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## william williamson

coppermare said:


> Having a blast doing what they do:
> Pitbull........50 percent genetics..50 percent environment (dogmen)
> Hannibal Lector
> Jeffery Dommer (sp)....50 percent genetics..50 percent environment(parents)
> Rapist, killers.ect.
> 
> Pitbull....100 PERCENT NO ACCIDENT/ INTENTIONAL
> Psychos...WE'D LIKE TO THINK 50 PERCENT POSSIBLY ACCIDENTAL/ NON INTENTIONAL
> 
> NOW YOUR GETTIN IT


guess how many horses got put down this week in the horse racing industry this weeK?
and I love me some horse racing.my stepfather was a jockey.I have been around the track my whole life.
guess how many hound dogs will get put down,shot,while runnin deer off the blocks,comin up lame and them poor country folk can't afford vets.
guess how many will get their buts handed to them by an old he **** or a bobcat?
all A result of human animal relationships.
so,get your self busy and go get 'em.or are you just particular to pickin on just one type,(racism)and tryin to get under their skin?
suggestion:go to one of them sites,if results are what your after.cause bangin it out with A dogman,I'm as game as any of the dogs I brought along.

actually more game than most of them.
I get A bit of A good feeling to have the experience and knowledge.and your continuing to battle with opinion.
tell me,how does it feel to be on the short ladder and no possibility of ever moving further than the top of short?
I been listenin to ya'll for 30 odd years A spewin,anda spoutin,and ya ain't left A scuff or mar on my resilient armor.
old sayin in the dog world,"A heart ain't no good without skill and experience".


----------



## Firehazard

hahahaha,, good stuff. .several good posts here.. William, PitbullMamma, Buz, Gamer... all good stuff  


for the OP, I graduated from the ghetto myself, and I call out ghetto ignorance as I almost was lost to the ways of the cwalker beatin burned and tatted to much I don't discuss not proud thanks ma for movin us to the GheTtO. I too survived,and raise my kids to call out all forms of ignorance and BS and go against the flow, as dead fish flow down river... While everyone turning into ignorant suburanites, I am perfecting my grizzly adams..  

Uphere where a handshake is like a contract, and you look at people when you talk with them.


----------



## Lex's Guardian

buzhunter said:


> Hahahaha! Funny you mentioned that. Looking back, I really gotta wonder about Paul Stanley. Don't no man in the world dance like that jack.
> 
> YouTube - Kiss - Lick it Up


LoL... He's workin' the bright red belt, baby blues & cheetah print boots too haha


----------



## Pancake

Firehazard said:


> Uphere where a handshake is like a contract, and you look at people when you talk with them.


:thumbsup:


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## william williamson

Firehazard said:


> Uphere where a handshake is like a contract, and you look at people when you talk with them.


and you never challenge someones truth with your opinion.
thats like cripple fightin,your gonna lose.


----------



## coppermare

william williamson said:


> guess how many horses got put down this week in the horse racing industry this weeK?
> and I love me some horse racing.my stepfather was a jockey.I have been around the track my whole life.
> guess how many hound dogs will get put down,shot,while runnin deer off the blocks,comin up lame and them poor country folk can't afford vets.
> guess how many will get their buts handed to them by an old he **** or a bobcat?
> all A result of human animal relationships.
> so,get your self busy and go get 'em.or are you just particular to pickin on just one type,(racism)and tryin to get under their skin?
> suggestion:go to one of them sites,if results are what your after.cause bangin it out with A dogman,I'm as game as any of the dogs I brought along.
> 
> actually more game than most of them.
> I get A bit of A good feeling to have the experience and knowledge.and your continuing to battle with opinion.
> tell me,how does it feel to be on the short ladder and no possibility of ever moving further than the top of short?
> I been listenin to ya'll for 30 odd years A spewin,anda spoutin,and ya ain't left A scuff or mar on my resilient armor.
> old sayin in the dog world,"A heart ain't no good without skill and experience".


Nope it ain't the only one. I do dispise the throughbred industry and money and greed is the only thing that keeps it afloat. Been there done that one also. So, nope I ain't predjudice about who I pick on..I just pick on animal abuse in general or promotion of it. Would do the same for kids or the elderly. It's in my genetics..LOL....oh and a whole lot of gameness in there ta boot!
I am country, couldn't afford vets myself. So, I learned to do it all for myself. I also learned to avoid getting an animal hurt because of it. While part of my battle, your correct sir, is from opinion, those opinions are based not only on fact but upbringing and values. We call them morals and character. You know what the good book says and all those do unto others type quotes? 
I wouldn't know how it feels to be on some short ladder. Maybe when you get to another rung of said ladder with better grammer then I can comprehend. Honestly I couldn't quite get that to begin with. LOL. Sorry, where are my Southern manners? I apologize for that, it was a bit underhanded. I have no intentions of scuffing your armor as I see there is no hope in showing you the light. But, alas, if I'd not at least tried what type person would I be? I myself would fall short of the grace.
"A heart ain't no good without skill and experience"
If that is your take then I'd wager that I'd be right up there with ya.
However I believe a heart is no good without LOVE.


----------



## william williamson

coppermare said:


> *Maybe when you get to another rung of said ladder with better grammer then I can comprehend.* Honestly I couldn't quite get that to begin with.


to disqualify ones stupidity with stupidity of your own actually shines of ignorance.
you mispelled a word,and it's diction is incorrect,and theirs punctuation missing.
my shortcoming is not being a secretary actually.when I'm in F2F I am dead on the ball.
I see people using *grammar *as an assault since thats the last bastion for hanging on to A losing battle.every other hold has been parried,and finally,to save face,calling on their education level is,well,kinda pitiful.
and no,I'm not gonna pray for you.:hammer:LOL


----------



## coppermare

william williamson said:


> to disqualify ones stupidity with stupidity of your own actually shines of ignorance.
> you mispelled a word,and it's diction is incorrect,and theirs punctuation missing.
> my shortcoming is not being a secretary actually.when I'm in F2F I am dead on the ball.
> I see people using *grammar *as an assault since thats the last bastion for hanging on to A losing battle.every other hold has been parried,and finally,to save face,calling on their education level is,well,kinda pitiful.
> and no,I'm not gonna pray for you.:hammer:LOL


This "debate" is over to me. Reasons: OMG look at what you just typed and yet tried to correct me. And you did the same thing back. LOL.. If you'd have read the post you would have noticed I was going to go that route but instead apologized and didn't. Granted I did take one low blow because you did the same first. Sorry, I AM THAT GAME THAT I WON'T LET YOU GET BY TAKING POT SHOTS. But, my RAISING took be back a step and I backed off. That was the ONLY reason I used it as an assault. I haven't lost any battle, to my knowledge. LOL. And since that is all you took from the post. I'd venture to say it's pretty easy to steer you off course by getting you a little angry. LOL....not a good trait to have as a fighter...........


----------



## william williamson

coppermare said:


> This "debate" is over to me. Reasons: OMG look at what you just typed and yet tried to correct me. And you did the same thing back. LOL.. If you'd have read the post you would have noticed I was going to go that route but instead apologized and didn't. Granted I did take one low blow because you did the same first. Sorry, I AM THAT GAME THAT I WON'T LET YOU GET BY TAKING POT SHOTS. But, my RAISING took be back a step and I backed off. That was the ONLY reason I used it as an assault. I haven't lost any battle, to my knowledge. LOL. And since that is all you took from the post. I'd venture to say it's pretty easy to steer you off course by getting you a little angry. LOL....not a good trait to have as a fighter...........


funny,you adress grammar and diction,like I said,i'm not the pecky type.think it's bad now,you should have seen it 4 years ago.this was the second site I joined when I got onea these hyar cumputers.
anyway,you tagged it,I bagged it,and it botehred you and now your gonna try another angle.I like bantering.I've got A paranoid psychizophrenic brother,clinically diagnosed.you get real well versed with tit-tattin.


----------



## coppermare

No, you don't understand the difference in a debate and an argument. I like to debate. You try to make me see your side, I try to make you see mine. We come to an agreement of sorts or we say we agree to disagree and walk away none the wiser and no less friends.
I DON'T ARGUE. Never have. You'd make one crack pot remark to me and we'd be on the ground like the dogs you speak of in a scuffle. No tit for tat kinda crap. Ain't got the time nor the patience for that. And I ALMOST let you drag me down into that when I backed up and made the apology. Not a lot of sense in typing smart arse remarks back and forth to someone I can't knock out is it? LMAO.
No other angle dude...and btw I had a great one with the paranoid brother and your thinking I had another angle....(think about it)


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## Firehazard

A Debate is two or more opinions coming at each other to prove a point from one view to the other's. In a debate someone is waiting for weakness the wrong word bad judgment you can take your pick for what prompts the attack and reasoning why "you" should believe like "I, me, us, yadda yadda"

Now there is a diference in a debate and dialogue.. I believe thats what your refering to. In dialogue there are listeners as what your saying is getting through to us thus DIA and speak LOGUE.. Debating is just that, like any presidential debate does anygood..


> _THE ONE GUY WHO MAKES SENSE GETS LAUGHED AT.. RonPaul.. Backing money by gold, more freedom, more pay for teachers less police force... YEAH thats just stupid._


 THATs what happens in a debate..

No worries... this is because this is fresh in my mind from lecture, Analyzing Arguments English class.


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## Firehazard

william williamson said:


> and you never challenge someones truth with your opinion.
> thats like cripple fightin,your gonna lose.


I swear some of the thing you say, you sound like my kinfolk back home, :rofl::rofl:.. You got that right :clap:


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## 9361

WOW.... just wow..... I can't believe I came back and read like 3 more pages of this mindlessness...


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## MISSAPBT

Lol ohh threats on the board now Hahahaha


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## william williamson

Firehazard said:


> I swear some of the thing you say, you sound like my kinfolk back home, :rofl::rofl:.. You got that right :clap:


my mom had A genius IQ.my psychizophrenic brother (whom she refered to as paranoid.theirs a big difference between paranoid and paranoid psychizophrenic,yet posting just the paranoid was a dig)is also a genius.they are tested and accredited.kinda like papered.
me,I was the one who took to the ******* books of life.
Gosh,could you imagine,I might be a ******* genius.
or just a moron,er 'scuse me oxy moron.hehehe
anyway,at the end of the day who's gonna care.I've got some health issues and am gonna drop dead one day,so I'm gonna leave my mark.
and not in my undies.I'm a free baller.

oh,I think it's just rhetorical banter.
I don't see any threats.
it's 2 well uniformed people slingin pie.
Coppermare is on my friend list.I'm in Fl.and I travel alot.one day I do believe we're gonna have us an Iced Tea.
and sorry CM for not acknowledging your apology.you hid it rat h e r w e l l,heheheheheheheheh


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## william williamson

Shes Got Heart said:


> WOW.... just wow..... I can't believe I came back and read like 3 more pages of this mindlessness...


oh please,I read some of the other threads,and on page one they could be claimed as mindless.
we put alot of thought and energy into this.

not.


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## 9361

william williamson said:


> oh please,I read some of the other threads,and on page one they could be claimed as mindless.
> we put alot of thought and energy into this.
> 
> not.


It was a good thread for awhile.. then we just started beating a dead horse... a dead thoroughbred race horse to be exact...  Which is sad because they are my favorite.


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## coppermare

Hey Wil-I-Am..heheehe...I lived in the Panhandle for ten years. Back home in Bama now. Reckon ya can't git more ******* than that. I love me some Polk Salad, ever had any? Come on down for some iced tea and I'll make some corn bread, fried green tomatoes, fresh peas, collards and we'll chew the fat a spell. Might even drop a line in a puddle. 
And your right, we did not waste nobodies space nor time. As long as we was enjoyin it make no neverminds what others thought! We liked beatin on the dead horse.....I reckon.


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## coppermare

Firehazard said:


> A Debate is two or more opinions coming at each other to prove a point from one view to the other's. In a debate someone is waiting for weakness the wrong word bad judgment you can take your pick for what prompts the attack and reasoning why "you" should believe like "I, me, us, yadda yadda"
> 
> Now there is a diference in a debate and dialogue.. I believe thats what your refering to. In dialogue there are listeners as what your saying is getting through to us thus DIA and speak LOGUE.. Debating is just that, like any presidential debate does anygood.. THATs what happens in a debate..
> 
> No worries... this is because this is fresh in my mind from lecture, Analyzing Arguments English class.


Well now ain't that what we wuz a doin? Debatin? hahahahaha...
I dunno FH you seem to be the resident genius, ghetto, country,hunter, breeder, cowboy, mountain man, college guy......I'm SURE you can label what we wuz all up to here...:roll:


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## Firehazard

coppermare said:


> Well now ain't that what we wuz a doin? Debatin? hahahahaha...
> I dunno FH you seem to be the resident genius, ghetto, country,hunter, breeder, cowboy, mountain man, college guy......I'm SURE you can label what we wuz all up to here...:roll:


:rofl: yep I've lived all those lifestyles some subjected on me while I was young.. what happens being born in Okla a half breed half breed, LOL 2/3 Native Comanche/Tonkawa tribes, with blood from choctaw to apache as Comanches were conquerers and slave traders the Tonkawa was similar only they were isolated and were cannibals.. sprinkled with salt and pepper I was raised by the ******* half of my family. young teen years my mom moved to the metro to go back to school and get work "attorney" where I was subjugated to the ghetto ways of life,all the while also going into bars and nightclubs, where I met and played pool, darts, or fusball with bikers, coke/dope dealers, hookers, etc..etc..etc.. I've seen it all before I could drive  because my stepdad was a Blues musician and opened for many greats blues, rock, country.. gramps(a retired CONTRACT pig farmer), peace and blessing be upon him, insisted we move back before I was completely worthless where he intstructed a military upbringing and old fashioned hard work.. From a hog farm in the sticks to the ghetto to a rural home in a hick town of Dewey at that time under 1500 ppl where I ran the creeks/rivers noodling, catching snakes, giggin, bowfishing.. collecting guns and all the while retaining that cowboy way  even put the 2step in the criphop :roll: lived in waianae, HI for a bit, throwin down chickens legal in HI and OK roppin steer in board shorts and slippas(flipflops).. So yeah life has provided me with a well rounded upbringing one for me to have paid attention to every detail in every lifestyle.. in many ways there all the same but in manys ways... ways are different. I wondered if anyone noticed how well informed on many walks of life I am, not just opininated, I've lived it and know how to pull my self or anyone out of any gutter or slump, I've had goals and limitations from all walks.... I am the Chameleon Bohemian 

A debate is an ARGUMENT... I didn't mention it because it was the silent given  Its just arguing in a civilized mannor :woof:

yeah.. we was all BullSh%^in'... not at first it was a good debate,, the horse is fertilizer now, for new growth  What separates the APBT from all other current fighting dogs (dogs that are fought in their countries) is Game  It the indistinguish trait that blows all other fighting breeds out of the water, its not just DA like in other fighting dogs, this is a result from GAME which is much more than aggressiveness.


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## buzhunter

Nothing like seeing that little bitty bulldog cur that big 150 pounder though. lol


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## william williamson

buzhunter said:


> Nothing like seeing that little bitty bulldog cur that big 150 pounder though. lol


the Tosa????


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## Firehazard

tosa in japan, kangal in turkey/afghanistan, tibetain mastiff tibetain and rural china... all 150 lb curs hahaha all those countries have legal fights or matches..


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## william williamson

Firehazard said:


> tosa in japan, kangal in turkey/afghanistan, tibetain mastiff tibetain and rural china... all 150 lb curs hahaha all those countries have legal fights or matches..


I was aware of that,I was wondering if he was refering to the story in Strattons book about the 45# dog of A soldier that quit a tosa.
I've seen/had A 38# dog quit several large dogs that owners thought would kill our little buthole dog( that was his name).
they were sadly,sadly mistaken.


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## Firehazard

william williamson said:


> I was aware of that,I was wondering if he was refering to the story in Strattons book about the 45# dog of A soldier that quit a tosa.
> I've seen/had A 38# dog quit several large dogs that owners thought would kill our little buthole dog( that was his name).
> they were sadly,sadly mistaken.


good stuff, I love the under 40 dogs  I bet he did :rofl: with a name like that to boot. Thats funny! Hollarin "Buthole" when after the dog :roll:

I wasn't doing anything except calling *all* the current fighting dogs still used in legal bouts throughout the world 150lbs curs.... and ALL OF THEM ARE VERY Human Aggressive...

hmm curs don't bite people as much as game dogs right? hahaha


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## MISSAPBT

I am having a little debate with a cousin 'in law', he is saying a kangal would stand on a pitbull and laugh at it, am i right saying that, kangal woul dhave uper hand in weight and size, its long limbs would be an easy target, big dogs cur out shortly after it starts, unles the kangal kills it in the first few minutes (which is rare) it wont really know what hit him. And that a conditioned game dog would give it a run for its money?

Im starting to doubt myself, i want second opinions!


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## william williamson

MISSAPBT said:


> I am having a little debate with a cousin 'in law', he is saying a kangal would stand on a pitbull and laugh at it, am i right saying that, kangal woul dhave uper hand in weight and size, its long limbs would be an easy target, big dogs cur out shortly after it starts, unles the kangal kills it in the first few minutes (which is rare) it wont really know what hit him. And that a conditioned game dog would give it a run for its money?
> 
> Im starting to doubt myself, i want second opinions!


theirs big dogs,like oddly large pits.full APBT top and bottom.
then theirs large dogs.
large dogs,like tosas,kangals, and akitas fight for hold and submission.
pits,they parry their hold. some of them actually use bait tactics.we had a dog,she was superb in working the ear/head area.she would throw a front leg up for the other dog to grab,she stayed her own corner,and would then roll the other dog into the corner and roll up on her free leg and bind the other dog into A situation where she was on top,hard mouthed and in a solid hold,then pinning the other dog.
I could tell you so much about tactic dogs,like stifle dogs.you couls put A dog we had,he would literally slide in and under the other dog grab his junk and go to shaking.you had to be slick to get them to GC.once it's a known stifle dog,it's matches are numbered.
absolutely no one likes them other than the one who owns them.
dogs like pits,that are solely for game are superior because of their one mindedness of the handler.yes,they were hog dogs,yet their is A high probability that the hog dog was above average.
I could breed some of the dogs still standing from older lines.theirs good blood,scattered about.some guys have tight up but they don't let on to many folks what they got.
thats one thing about the way back boys.they didn't brag on their dogs.we didn't have the internet or cell phones with unlimited minutes.
we had dogs,with lineage that went way back.we didn't say oh my dog,we pulled out the papers and let the lines do the talking.
we had git to's where all we did was plan breeding,1,2,3 years out.we bought or traded services.we claimed dogs from future litters to keep blood tight,within it's proper lines and domain.we bred dogs,sometimes not letting blood go up north or down south.
I've seen papers that in the early 80's were hand written from the old countries,Ireland and England, that were hand written.and then they traced back 30-50 years from then.several were hand written yet a few times I touched paper from the 1850's.
this is waht game was.this was how we bred dogs.this is why,some of ya'll HAVE just what you got.
hate us if you must,for our black soul.fine,I'm A man,I'll deal with it.just don't despise the work we did.
ain't nay swangin john doin this like we did back then.
theirs mutts bred to rag dolls and they hang paper on them feed them substances then cuss me for what I did.we had real dogs,every single one of them.
THAT CANNOT BE SAID FOR WHATS ON THE END OF ALOT OF LEASHES.
pits are superior,based on their athleticism and agility.match that to heart and tennacity,that makes a winner.not some 150# sack of hold.


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## buzhunter

Not any dog in particular. I was thinking along the same lines as FH. I just like the underdog.


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## buzhunter

MISSAPBT said:


> I am having a little debate with a cousin 'in law', he is saying a kangal would stand on a pitbull and laugh at it, am i right saying that, kangal woul dhave uper hand in weight and size, its long limbs would be an easy target, big dogs cur out shortly after it starts, unles the kangal kills it in the first few minutes (which is rare) it wont really know what hit him. And that a conditioned game dog would give it a run for its money?
> 
> Im starting to doubt myself, i want second opinions!


There's big dogs (even kangals) beating and killing "pit bulls" all over the internet so ya, they can but they run more often than not. They don't breed dogs like Americans do. What I heard anyway.


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## Firehazard

William, great post.. a good dog has to be proven or have proven stock, and any such dog will devoure those big dogs, and from what I've been told American bred game dogs are a class above the rest throughout the world; thus underground German owned dogs,Poland,Turkey, Ukraine, Russia, all throughout Indonesia and Phillipines where they also fight dogs legally but they are using American game dogs which are not allowed in matches with Kangals in Turkey (street dog and back yard rolls excluded) They match the Kangals only briefly compared to [] dogs like Tosa but in Japan there are gamedog matches seperate from the Tosa matches down on the south island. The rural Chinese and Tibetan, tribes and nomads fight big dogs in a simple rope, straw, stick, whatever they can use []. Any good Jocko/Redboy dog, Halls, Eli, etc.. any good proven stock will devoure any dog that gets close to your kids LOL let alone a conditioned dog whether for [] or catch, JMO


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## william williamson

Firehazard said:


> William, great post.. a good dog has to be proven or have proven stock, and any such dog will devoure those big dogs, and from what I've been told American bred game dogs are a class above the rest throughout the world; thus underground German owned dogs,Poland,Turkey, Ukraine, Russia, all throughout Indonesia and Phillipines where they also fight dogs legally but they are using American game dogs which are not allowed in matches with Kangals in Turkey (street dog and back yard rolls excluded) They match the Kangals only briefly compared to [] dogs like Tosa but in Japan there are gamedog matches seperate from the Tosa matches down on the south island. The rural Chinese and Tibetan, tribes and nomads fight big dogs in a simple rope, straw, stick, whatever they can use []. Any good Jocko/Redboy dog, Halls, Eli, etc.. any good proven stock will devoure any dog that gets close to your kids LOL let alone a conditioned dog whether for [] or catch, JMO


I could tell you A story about my time with A friend in Costa Rica who's seen all these other dogs in action,he was Israeli,military spook type.
he watched these dogs,lived around them and then happened upon pit bulls.
being of the warrior mindset,matched to his hands on exp.he told me that bar none,the pit was the superior adversary.
they did have them in many of the middle eastern countries.yet he told me that they didn't train,condition or breed them as we did.
what he related,reminds me of the things I've seen and heard of inner city antics.
they face them off in the streets,then don't put them down to go.they fed them scraps.they doubled as guards for their homes,thus alot of HA.when they did drop them they would goad them with canes and kick at them.
exactly what I saw happen about 18 years ago.one day I went to this so called event.what a joke.
I don't see A pit bull when I see one.i'm looking at A history book with the greatest legacy aver attributed to A single entity short of God.
their is no equal # for #.cept for A chi-hoo-hoo.and I'd hate to see A 4# pit bull.


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## buzhunter

Funny, in those far away places they're so proud of their "ultimate fighters" yet half of 'em keep game bred American dogs lol.


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## william williamson

buzhunter said:


> Funny, in those far away places they're so proud of their "ultimate fighters" yet half of 'em keep game bred American dogs lol.


mistreated,abused,not regimently conditioned or fed,and they still watched the midget kill the giant.David and Goliath.
I couldn't imagine what they'd do with A worked dog.
could you imagine?


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## Firehazard

william williamson said:


> mistreated,abused,not regimently conditioned or fed,and they still watched the midget kill the giant.David and Goliath.
> I couldn't imagine what they'd do with A worked dog.
> could you imagine?


EXACYLY...... 
yep yep, thats what I was gettin at; only you said it in crayon.


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## buzhunter

They rely too much on aggression and size IMO. I don't know how much they work their dogs but they're breeding the wrong parts lol.


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