# game bloodline vs "show"bloodline



## datguy83p

Is their a problem crossing game bloodlines with a "show" bloodline, for an example
Jeep/ razor edge or cowboy/ gotti.....


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## 9361

Gotti is an American Bully bloodline.... which is a different breed. So I would see a problem in crossing it.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

ditto!!!!! I agree, there's no purpose in mixing two different established breeds.


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## Black Rabbit

Yup I totally agree with both of ya


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## datguy83p

datguy83p said:


> Is their a problem crossing game bloodlines with a "show" bloodline, for an example
> Jeep/ razor edge or cowboy/ gotti.....


That's what I thought...well both of my dogs are cowboy/jeep. They are the only bloodlines I truly know about


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## bahamutt99

I own a dog that is a cross of show bloodlines and gamebred stuff. However in Terra's case, the show bloodlines used are still nice and moderate, not bred for exaggeration, still able to perform. When you start moving into the AmBully lines, you're really throwing two dogs together that are greatly diverged and are unlikely to end up with a cross that meets perfectly in the middle.


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## dixieland

Here is my girl Suey.She's a product of a breeding between these lines.She is 7 months old right now.Her dad is gotti/re and her mom is my other female who has colby and other game lines in her (possibly,don't know for sure because I have no papers on her).
What do you mean when you ask if there would be a problem crossing them?I guess it all depends on what you're trying to achieve in the breeding.But like others have said,they are two different breeds so I see no need in crossing them.


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## kimber

Now if you were talking about game and show lines of the APBT, the answer to your question would be "no". Like Dixieland says, "it all depends on what you're trying to achieve in the breeding".... but since you are talking APBT and AmBully, I would have to agree with the others. Actually, it's worse than breeding your APBT to an AmStaff. LOLOL


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## reddoggy

kimber said:


> Actually, it's worse than breeding your APBT to an AmStaff. LOLOL


How is that? 
I've seen some very very nice APBT/Bullies on this board. Point and case, AmericanPit13


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## Nizmo

reddoggy said:


> How is that?
> I've seen some very very nice APBT/Bullies on this board. Point and case, AmericanPit13


gotta agree


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## dixieland

Nizmo said:


> gotta agree


Agree there too!Those are some beautiful doggies!


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## bahamutt99

It just doesn't follow that you would take one extreme and breed it to another extreme and expect consistent results that meet in the middle. If that is what someone wants to do, then they are going to do it. But I don't see the reason in breeding a Gotti, RE, Gaff, {insert big bully dog} to a Jeep, Redboy, Boudreaux {insert skinny gamedog}. When I see that done, I find myself thinking that the person doing the breeding wants the best of both worlds and can't accept the idea that one is vastly different from the other. I don't mean this as a slam against bullies, but it often appears to be done by folks who want to promote the idea of the athletic bully. If that's the case, I could understand breeding the most athletic bully to the most athletic bully and getting athletic bullies. But mixing in game blood... does not compute to me.


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## Bethb2007

Good post Lindsay.


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## aimee235

I don't think mixing show and working APBT's is a problem. Mixing two different breeds is different.


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## reddoggy

I get crossing throw back bullies/bullies that look like original bullies to UKC types that are of game descent... Pretty sure you'd just come up with UKC type dogs. 
If someone told me they were taking a Razors Edge dog to a straight Colby, I think my head would explode like Malfunctioning Eddie.
There's a really big roll of the dice when crossing extremes, seems like you'd just be diluting both lines just to get a pick.


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## datguy83p

I know this is of topic but can anyone explain to me about cowboy bloodline..I was told if u wanted a bigger game dog then cowboy is ur best pick...


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## kimber

reddoggy said:


> How is that?
> I've seen some very very nice APBT/Bullies on this board. Point and case, AmericanPit13


So. There are alot of very nice looking mongrels too. There is alot of nice looking _anything_, if you look. I don't know, I suppose I like consistency.


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## GatorMan

If it aint broke, dont try to fix it....just my 2 cents.


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## NinaThePitbull

*made up my mind*



bahamutt99 said:


> It just doesn't follow that you would take one extreme and breed it to another extreme and expect consistent results that meet in the middle. If that is what someone wants to do, then they are going to do it. But I don't see the reason in breeding a Gotti, RE, Gaff, {insert big bully dog} to a Jeep, Redboy, Boudreaux {insert skinny gamedog}. When I see that done, I find myself thinking that the person doing the breeding wants the best of both worlds and can't accept the idea that one is vastly different from the other. I don't mean this as a slam against bullies, but it often appears to be done by folks who want to promote the idea of the athletic bully. If that's the case, I could understand breeding the most athletic bully to the most athletic bully and getting athletic bullies. But mixing in game blood... does not compute to me.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## American_Pit13

kimber said:


> So. There are alot of very nice looking mongrels too. There is alot of nice looking _anything_, if you look. I don't know, I suppose I like consistency.


My dogs are consistent as well as not over done and bulky  Bully lines yep, but still what an APBT should look like.


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## kimber

I wasn't talking about anyone's particular dogs. I guess someone used you as an example of some good APBT/Bully combinations -which they look great, btw. There are always exceptions to the rule, right?


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## American_Pit13

kimber said:


> There are always exceptions to the rule, right?


Very true. I in no way mean that All Bully/APBT would look this way.

To the OP

I don't see the point in crossing Game lines due to the fact that you are crossing different body types so what the point?

If you want a Game style dog you get game lines.

You want a bit thicker dog you go UKC show lines lol...

You want an even heavier dog you go Bully.

Also why even mix a game line at all... You just dilute a piece of history.


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## kimber

> Also why even mix a game line at all... You just dilute a piece of history.


Yeah, I'd like to know the answer to the question as well.


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## gamer

datguy83p said:


> Is their a problem crossing game bloodlines with a "show" bloodline, for an example
> Jeep/ razor edge or cowboy/ gotti.....


Nope non at all IMO



dixieland said:


> Here is my girl Suey.She's a product of a breeding between these lines.She is 7 months old right now.Her dad is gotti/re and her mom is my other female who has colby and other game lines in her (possibly,don't know for sure because I have no papers on her).
> What do you mean when you ask if there would be a problem crossing them?I guess it all depends on what you're trying to achieve in the breeding.But like others have said,they are two different breeds so I see no need in crossing them.


If her mother had no papers you cant say she is really anything and cant use her as an example.



kimber said:


> Now if you were talking about game and show lines of the APBT, the answer to your question would be "no". Like Dixieland says, "it all depends on what you're trying to achieve in the breeding".... but since you are talking APBT and AmBully, I would have to agree with the others. Actually, it's worse than breeding your APBT to an AmStaff. LOLOL


There is a problem what is the point? To fix what the show people have destroyed? Most show people dont want DA so breeding a game bred dog into a show program just makes them have to breed out the DA all over again.



datguy83p said:


> I know this is of topic but can anyone explain to me about cowboy bloodline..I was told if u wanted a bigger game dog then cowboy is ur best pick...


Why would you want a big game dog? Can you handle a big game dog? What are you going to use a big game dog for?


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## bahamutt99

Eh. Since the process of making gamedogs is illegal anyway, the whole dilution of them thing is kind of moot. As for breeding a gamedog to a show dog, its not like you can't turn around and breed them to another gamedog. So unless you turn around and add those show-n-go pups back into a gamedog program, you're not really diluting anything, just helping someone else's program.


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## kimber

Personally, I could care less what someone else does, EXCEPT breeding this God-awful *#!% and calling it pit bull.


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## reddoggy

kimber said:


> Personally, I could care less what someone else does, EXCEPT breeding this God-awful *#!% and calling it pit bull.


What God-awful *#!% is that exactly?


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## Chaos4ever

Cool subject. I always thought a super nice Gaff dog and a super nice Caragan dog would make the perfect litter for my taste. I know some people probably just fell out there seats reading that but thats what I always thought. Sorry if that made u upset Cheryl. lol


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## Indigo Bully Connection

reddoggy said:


> What God-awful *#!% is that exactly?


I was wondering the same thing....


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## kimber

Deformed dogs being purposely bred. Deformities....meaning, extreme faults for one. I thought that was a no-brainer. Sorry.


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## reddoggy

I can only think of one extreme fault that anybody breeds for as far as bullies. But being that there are a few different clubs looking for different conformation, EVERYTHING is a fault LOL


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## Indigo Bully Connection

kimber said:


> Deformed dogs being purposely bred. Deformities....meaning, extreme faults for one. I thought that was a no-brainer. Sorry.


No, it's not really a no-brainer because a good majority of the American Bullies are representatives like mine, Reddoggys, and AmericanPit. The only things that are being flaunted around like leash ordaments are extreme dogs which are obviously outcrossed to other breeds for no good reason.... IDK, if you think our dogs are freaks and deformed then i reckon that's your oppinion, but I know that my bullies are functional and are consistant: past, present, and future. I like the best of both worlds... which is where this breed started and I know on my yard it will stay that way.


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## kimber

I guess the question now is, DO YOU think your dogs are deformed, or feeling a bit insecure? Because I didn't say a word about your dogs or bullies in general. I said [people] breeding deformities on purpose and calling them pit bulls. Before that, I said that I wouldn't breed an APBT with a bully, which is my opinion and i think that is what the OP wanted, right? Opinions?


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## kimber

And the "good majority" of bullies are NOT a good representative of this supposively new breed. Unless you are blind...unless this is the only board you frequent, you're wrong. Incidently, I like to see a nice bully. I have nothing against them. I'm not prejudice.. LOL.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

kimber said:


> I guess the question now is, DO YOU think your dogs are deformed, or feeling a bit insecure? Because I didn't say a word about your dogs or bullies in general. I said [people] breeding deformities on purpose and calling them pit bulls. Before that, I said that I wouldn't breed an APBT with a bully, which is my opinion and i think that is what the OP wanted, right? Opinions?


I'm the first person to admit my mistakes. Maybe I misinterpreted your post. I do not think my dogs are deformed... Are there places to improve? Do my dogs have faults? the answer to both of those is "yes", and I haven't met a faultless dog yet.

I completely agree with not taking a bully back to a game line, it serves no purpose anyway you look at it.


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## kimber

i think your dogs look good. Yes, you did misinterprete my post(s).


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## gamer

LOL so now that the show world flucked up the breed its ok to go back and use game dogs to "fix" them? Aye aye aye that is messed up and you can still legally get and breed game dogs.


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## dixieland

gamer said:


> LOL so now that the show world flucked up the breed its ok to go back and use game dogs to "fix" them? Aye aye aye that is messed up and you can still legally get and breed game dogs.


don't you show dogs?


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Nope, she doesn't have any dogs at the moment


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## dixieland

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Nope, she doesn't have any dogs at the moment


Ahhh ok.I thought she started a thread one time where she said she was getting one that she could show


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## boogiebot

Gamer is a chick?!?!?!?! i always thought gamer was a dude. dam this internet!:hammer:


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## dixieland

boogiebot said:


> Gamer is a chick?!?!?!?! i always thought gamer was a dude. dam this internet!:hammer:


:rofl::rofl::rofl: HAHA!I used to think so too!


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## kimber

Yeppers. The chick's a chick. There's alot of chicks in the game. :clap:


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## dixieland

kimber said:


> Yeppers. The chick's a chick. There's alot of chicks in the game. :clap:


Ummm ok.......


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## Indigo Bully Connection

What game?


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## kimber

ummm, what, what?


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## GTR

Trance is a Game/Bully cross. UKC champion son X'd with Chinamen Bitch.

He's a good dog. Real healthy and intelligent, but as good as a dog he is, I'd never breed him. He's a great dog, but only the healthiest and best and most consistent should be bred, unless the outcross is for a specific purpose.


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## kimber

Are UKC'd APBTs now referred to as bullies as well? I hope you're not clumping them together. Bullies have their own registry now -ABKC, right? 
What you have there is an APBT from two different APBT registeries.


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## GTR

kimber said:


> Are UKC'd APBTs now referred to as bullies as well? I hope you're not clumping them together. Bullies have their own registry now -ABKC, right?
> What you have there is an APBT from two different APBT registeries.


Bullies are bullies, no matter what the registry. If it is a Gotti/RE etc etc UKC or ABKC its still an American Bully, even if it has APBT papers. It's about bloodlines, NOT registries.


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## kimber

What UKC lines does he have and is his parent ABKC registered? 

I don't agree. I know some thick UKC dogs who are not American Bullies. They may be bullier than game, but they aren't American Bully. lol.. Remember, American Bully is now a "BREED", but somehow I don't think it really matters to most. People will continue with the name pit bull because no one knows what an American Bully is.


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## vdubbinya

My american bully is registered with the adba, has nothing to do with registries


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## GTR

Like I said before it's about bloodlines not registries. This is not going to go anywhere.

Trance's father is a bully. His dad is UKC Ch 386 Kennel's Griffon on Top of the World, which is an American Bully. His mother was old school Chinaman which is an APBT. Griffon is a UKC Bully registered as an APBT, and is a UKC Champion as an APBT. Though, he is clearly not an APBT.


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## kimber

D*mn, who was the frikkin' judge on that one, huh? geez


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## dixieland

kimber said:


> Damn, who was the frikkin' judge on that one, huh? geez


I think he was just proving his point to you about bloodlines and registries.Certain bloodlines no matter matter what they're registered under are bully


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## GTR

Hey Dixie, whozzat there in your avatar? I'm a huge metal fan. Mostly Scandinavian MDM though...


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## kimber

Yes, I know this, but thank you for your input.


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## dixieland

GTR said:


> Hey Dixie, whozzat there in your avatar? I'm a huge metal fan. Mostly Scandinavian MDM though...


That be the Welsh band Bullet For My Valentine


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## GTR

dixieland said:


> That be the Welsh band Bullet For My Valentine


Aha! Alas...I have not listened to their tunes.... >.o Though I have heard of them.


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## dixieland

Some are better then others.If you want to know which ones to listen to,pm me.They are one of my favorite bands!


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## bahamutt99

It may be legal to get and breed gamedogs, but proving that they are gamedogs in the first place is illegal. Now I've heard arguments about how we can import from other countries and drive over borders to test our dogs there, and that IMO is just foolishness. 8-ball says: The game will never be accepted by the general public and that the penalties against it will continue to get more severe. I stand by what I said in my other post. Moot point griping about diluting gamedogs. Most people who mess with game _lines_ nowadays still don't have any illusions about having game_dogs_. And I think a lot of people are more in love with the romantic idea of an old warrior rather than the reality. So...

I like my show-n-go cross. She's been a very cool dog to work with, and though the show ring doesn't seem to like her much, I've seen enough from this little girl to believe that show-n-go crosses can be very successful, done with sense.


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## datguy83p

gamer said:


> Nope non at all IMO
> 
> If her mother had no papers you cant say she is really anything and cant use her as an example.
> 
> There is a problem what is the point? To fix what the show people have destroyed? Most show people dont want DA so breeding a game bred dog into a show program just makes them have to breed out the DA all over again.
> 
> Why would you want a big game dog? Can you handle a big game dog? What are you going to use a big game dog for?


I'm just interested in how each bloodline looks,...


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## vdubbinya

kimber said:


> D*mn, who was the frikkin' judge on that one, huh? geez


who was that geared towards


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## American_Pit13

vdubbinya said:


> who was that geared towards


The person who posted the CH before her.


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## vdubbinya

gotcha. thanks. didnt see any pix. i'll have to re-read 

Wow. Im about Blind.


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## American_Pit13

vdubbinya said:


> gotcha. thanks. didnt see any pix. i'll have to re-read
> 
> Wow. Im about Blind.


There wasn't pics the first time he posted it


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## vdubbinya

thought i smoked myself retarded!


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

i own a game/bully cross. she is gottiline/winegarner x tramp/turtlebuster. crossing a gamebred dog to an ambully brings forth traits of old school apbt to the bully. let me add that i keep my classic bullies(apbt/amstaff) seperate from my 2nd generation bullies. so imo i was keeping with the formula that is why i did this breeding, to try and bring forth some kind of drive and workability in the lazy ambullly. and as far as this litter goes i got what i wanted from this breeding i have some bully's with unbelievable drive. something bout the old dogs (apbt or amstaffs) that the bully is lacking. bullies just don't seem as eager to please as the old apbt. also a bully x gamedog breeding will do wonders for the conformation of any bully line. the dog in my avatar is a bully/game cross.


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## Mcleod15

CINCINNATIBULLIES said:


> i own a game/bully cross. she is gottiline/winegarner x tramp/turtlebuster. crossing a gamebred dog to an ambully brings forth traits of old school apbt to the bully. let me add that i keep my classic bullies(apbt/amstaff) seperate from my 2nd generation bullies. so imo i was keeping with the formula that is why i did this breeding, to try and bring forth some kind of drive and workability in the lazy ambullly. and as far as this litter goes i got what i wanted from this breeding i have some bully's with unbelievable drive. something bout the old dogs (apbt or amstaffs) that the bully is lacking. bullies just don't seem as eager to please as the old apbt. also a bully x gamedog breeding will do wonders for the conformation of any bully line. the dog in my avatar is a bully/game cross.


Game lines crossed with Bully lines is sacrilegious. Breed bullies to bullies to correct the problems(Since they are an established breed now). If people are not satisfied with the traits a bully possess then why do they own them?


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## redog

why mix them? do we need bullies with more drive? I prefer the real deal for drive. I love a nice bully for what the bully is too. Im trying to figure out if they're like labradoodles, puggles and schnoodles. 2 pure bred dogs of different breeds that are bred together = mixed dogs. or american pit bully?


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

if you take one messed up gene pool and try to breed inside that gene pool to correct itself how are you correcting anything using flawed genetics. an outside gene(different bloodline) needs to be introduced to open the possibility to improvemnet.

it's easy, take 6 foundation dogs. you have a breed that is based on these 6 dogs and the results are what we have today. so if you introduced a 7th doesn't it make sense that the offspring have more of a chance to be "correct".


to be honest this breeding would not have taken place if i was as educated as i am now on the bully subject. but this whole litter is a phenominal bully litter and will be bred here at my kennel for years to come. now i have a bunch of high strung high drive bully's getting into weight pulling and would like to find out more bout hogdoggin' in the future. i don't like the lazy bullies of today NONE of mine are the typical bully.


to answer everyones question why own a bully if you don't like the traits they possess? well i love gamebred dogs but i like the bully look. what's wrong with having a bully with a more gamedoggish attitude? is this so wrong? i want my bully to have the apbt temperament with a more amstaffish look(remember i own classic bully's apbt/amstaff crosses).


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## gamer

CINCINNATIBULLIES said:


> if you take one messed up gene pool and try to breed inside that gene pool to correct itself how are you correcting anything using flawed genetics. an outside gene(different bloodline) needs to be introduced to open the possibility to improvemnet.
> 
> it's easy, take 6 foundation dogs. you have a breed that is based on these 6 dogs and the results are what we have today. so if you introduced a 7th doesn't it make sense that the offspring have more of a chance to be "correct".
> 
> to be honest this breeding would not have taken place if i was as educated as i am now on the bully subject. but this whole litter is a phenominal bully litter and will be bred here at my kennel for years to come. now i have a bunch of high strung high drive bully's getting into weight pulling and would like to find out more bout hogdoggin' in the future. i don't like the lazy bullies of today NONE of mine are the typical bully.
> 
> to answer everyones question why own a bully if you don't like the traits they possess? well i love gamebred dogs but i like the bully look. what's wrong with having a bully with a more gamedoggish attitude? is this so wrong? i want my bully to have the apbt temperament with a more amstaffish look(remember i own classic bully's apbt/amstaff crosses).


I thought that the Bully was bred to be completely different breed? You can fix the Bully problems with bullies, just stop breeding the badly bred ones, because now you have a mix breed litter of pit bull/ bully dont you? I mean does the ABKC register mixed litters?


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

how can a problem be fixed when the 98% of the bully gene pool is flawed(structurally incorrect) for the bully standard?

i can name maybe 20 bullys alive that are correct to the standard. even if only these bully's were bred you still are breeding from a limited gene pool. another bloodline(not outside blood only apbt/amstaff blood) must be introduced to open possibilities to better the bully conformation, not close the possibilities.

and for the record this whole litter is conformationally correct for bully's, 2 are conformationally correct for ukc, and they all have drive for days. so forget reasoning the breeding DID work at cleaing up some bully blood. and yes they are all papered as bully's. if the parents are ukc or adba the abkc will register the litter.


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## redog

:clap: GOOD ANSWER CINCINNATI ! :clap:


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## Mcleod15

CINCINNATIBULLIES said:


> how can a problem be fixed when the 98% of the bully gene pool is flawed(structurally incorrect) for the bully standard?
> 
> *i can name maybe 20 bullys alive that are correct to the standard*. even if only these bully's were bred you still are breeding from a limited gene pool. another bloodline(not outside blood only apbt/amstaff blood) must be introduced to open possibilities to better the bully conformation, not close the possibilities.
> 
> and for the record this whole litter is conformationally correct for bully's, 2 are conformationally correct for ukc, and they all have drive for days. so forget reasoning the breeding DID work at cleaing up some bully blood. and yes they are all papered as bully's. if the parents are ukc or adba the abkc will register the litter.


Well that sucks for bully breeders then, I guess breeders will just have to stick it out and breed bullies to bullies and maybe 100 years down the road the flaws will be corrected. To be honest I don't think any reputable breeder of gamebred APBTs that would even consider the cross, or even consider selling a pup to someone considering crossing the two.

Like gamer stated you would have a bully/APBT mix.


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## kimber

I guess it something like when AKC opened up the stud books (in 1970s, if I'm not mistaken) to let in APBT for their AmStaffs. Expanding the gene pool, if you will.... The thing is, AmStaffs have a rock solid standard that they adhere to. For most part, at this point in time the bully breed standard is all over the place. Most breeders are just breeding slop. Although I must say, I do a website for a bully breeder who has beautiful dogs and I do know a small handful of people who breed respectable. But that is so few and far between. I mean look at that "Champion" that dude posted? EWWW.
Im happy you're happy with the outcome, but I don't know if I would breed sloppy to correct in hopes of correct. Why not start out with correct to begin with --on both sides?


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## dixieland

GTR said:


> Like I said before it's about bloodlines not registries. This is not going to go anywhere.
> 
> Trance's father is a bully. His dad is UKC Ch 386 Kennel's Griffon on Top of the World, which is an American Bully. His mother was old school Chinaman which is an APBT. Griffon is a UKC Bully registered as an APBT, and is a UKC Champion as an APBT. Though, he is clearly not an APBT.





kimber said:


> Most breeders are just breeding slop. Although I must say, I do a website for a bully breeder who has beautiful dogs and I do know a small handful of people who breed respectable. But that is so few and far between. I mean look at that "Champion" that dude posted? EWWW.


Are you talking about this guy being EWWW? In my opinion he's a very good looking bully.


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## CINCINNATIBULLIES

let me state that my gottiline/winegarner female is not a flawed bully and my tramp/turlebuster male is not a flawed gamedog and he was not sold to me i own several generations of gamedogs directly off of turtlbuster and tramp. i did not do this breeding to correct conformation i did it to add vigor to the bully, the conformation plusses were a bonus.

like i stated i own classic bully''s (imo amstaff/apbt). why in that formula would i not use an apbt to breed with . imo i acceptably can breed to a bully, a apbt, or an amastaff as long as they are health checked and of age to be bred. my offspring will all still be bully's and papered as such. i do not promote my bully's as apbt even though i believe they are all the same gene pool(classic bully's, apbt, and amstaffs).

dixieland that is a good looking bully. pics can't tell anything though. the remark was made because the dog was ukc championed as a pitbull.


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## kimber

In my opinion it isn't a good looking bully, but............. I suppose if I look at the entire spectrum of the bully world, he isn't too bad. But a CHAMPION??? I don't think so. And yes Cinci, that is what I was referring to --ukc championed as a pit bull. Heck if I care what the bully people think are worthy of champions, that's their business as long as they keep in the ABKC. ........that's funny.


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## eddy

i agree you should'nt croos the breed caus who know what thy ral breeded the bullies with anyway some of those gotti i seen are monsters they look like massive... arent pits supose to be like 60lbs or less... i'll stick with my game dogs i ndont need a dog on HGH......by the way i just a pup with chinaman/bolio/boomer bloodline


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## reddoggy

You know..... If that were in English, I'm sure I wouldn't have liked it. LMFAO


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## Scratch

Mcleod15 said:


> Game lines crossed with Bully lines is sacrilegious. Breed bullies to bullies to correct the problems(Since they are an established breed now). If people are not satisfied with the traits a bully possess then why do they own them?


best post on this thread.


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## Teekospits

The bully breed have their standards and the apbt breed have their own, and most of yah are right. as what was mention why breed a bully to a apbt, good question? even though it is from a apbt/amstaff,mmmm!! nothing will every say the same, there always going to be one person to tamper with something and change it. but like i said before about the bully breed, im not a fan of it, but i like the change in how breed can be formed into something new. let see some one tamper with other breeds and leave the apbts, amstaff, staffie bull and bull terrier breed alone.


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## pittybull01

I thingk both those dogs posted look good the bully father and that red sun...


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## Firehazard

Corvino, Tacoma, Colby, etc... had established game dogs in WHICH the SHOW dogs were PICKED from. THEN they bred SHOW DOG TO SHOW DOG, this became the trend and the "breed" however there are still pure Tacoma and Corvino dogs that are in ADBA and the AKC. I Love to see a pure game bred dog get put into the UKC and then they drop off all the pedigree but allow the dog in as a 1st gen. THIS IS WHY THE BLOODLINES ARE SO JACKED... American Pit Bull Terrier is a game dog a function dog, the GREAT dog men of yesteryear understood after all they created it. Juan Gotti is registered as an APBT so was Razors Edges, Throwing Knuckles, etc.. THE BULLY CRAZE CAME STRAIGHT OUTTA THE HOOD.. I know the pieces fit because I watched them fall away.. I have posted the first Bully type kennels on another thread, and they're straight ghetto dogs, funny because they promoted the blues more in ghetto as well.. THE PROBLEM WITH SAYING THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT BREEDS IS THIS.. Where did the dog originate? EXAMPLES: Breed a Am Staff to a APBT what will you get? Depends all on the color of the dogs nose, skin around the eyes, eyes, and hair color. There are AMSTAFF breeder with papered APBTs because they produced a rednosed dog. There is the scott type am bulldog because of the strong colby blood and others that run through the AMbulldog despite enthusiasts futile arguments, what would happen if you bred an scott type with an APBT? APBTs is what they will be called by all who see them. _SO if you have a dog like RE/Gotti which RE already has a strong foundation in game dogs and then breed it back to a game line dog. YOU ARE IMPROVING YOUR DOGS LINE! _ *IF YOU DISAGREE THATS FINE.. >BUT YOUR DISAGREEING WITH Corvino, Colby, Tacoma, Benedict, STRATTON, etc.. whos dogs are registered as both AmStaff and APBT, also who say that the StaffY from England is the REAL bulldog from which all APBTs originate.* But Im sure to disagree with these guys you have more merrit than they do with the breed known as American Pit Bull Terrier. I've said it before and I'll say it again SHOW dogs should be those picture perfect working dogs, as APBTs are for function, thats the way the old dog men did it, for us to do it any other way is just creating a problem they already solved 








Kryptonic "Spike" down from Hooch X Yager(BuddyXPrincess) Princess is 4 X Hooch with lightner outcross, Buddy is ChFredT CHBullshit Wilders w/ Heavy lightner on bottom. So here you have a dog that is litterally 2/3 Jocko with 1/6 lignter and 1/6 mixed CH gamedogs... He is a pure game bred dog. I have AKC people beatin down my door to get a stud from him.. rofalmao 
We can all argue with the facts and with the truth but in the end we are only lying to ourselves. Listen to men of old...


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## Mcleod15

Thats a good post Firehazard you know alot about this breed and its history, but here is my thing, Since the whole bully breed has came about with all the mixing between Amstaffs and APBTs, what good has came from it up to this point? A bunch of horribably structured dogs? Any thing positive? From what I've seen mixing Gamedogs with bullys hasn't done crap for the breed to this point and I don't think it will. What I do think is all of this mixing will ruin the true APBT. Thank God there are still Old Dogmen and few up and coming dogmen that are keeping this breed alive and "*pure*".

Also I've heard that Dave Wilsons original Amstaff stock was tainted before he even started the RE line. So that pretty much means this whole operation was screwed from the get go.

Its threads like this when we need Marty around.


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## GTR

Well, I got an awesome all-around dog out of it so I'm not complaining. I'd rather have a 1/2 and 1/2 mix than a poorly bred basset-hound whats-it that I see. Or these ugly p*ss poor dogs with those hideous round eyes and pig noses, chests that nearly drag the ground and forward sloping back. That is just disgusting IMO.

I don't think that mixes are worth a crap for breeding and are for the most part going to be mediocre dogs for sports. I DO think they make a great pet for someone wanting the awesome aspects of owning a pit bull, without the dangerous amounts of drive present in hardcore game-bred lines. 

I actually would recommend a mix for someone looking for a pit bull best friend. They are beautiful, maintain athletic ability, are trainable and much more docile than a full-on pit bull. I feel that is it the responsibility of the prospective owner to determine what bloodlines or mix thereof is going to suit their needs.

A one-dog, highly active and experienced home may opt for the true APBT.

Others may want a huge bully, or a fat little pocket bully because they want a beefy dog.

Or, you might be like myself, where you want an intelligent, calm, strong an beautiful animal that is perfect to be your buddy. You can take him places, trust him not to destroy your home, and he is highly trainable and smart. They are GOOD dogs, if the right dogs are chosen. An excellent choice for someone who wants the excellent pitty character, without all the baggage.

That is my two cents worth.


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## Mcleod15

GTR said:


> Well, I got an awesome all-around dog out of it so I'm not complaining. I'd rather have a 1/2 and 1/2 mix than a poorly bred basset-hound whats-it that I see. Or these ugly p*ss poor dogs with those hideous round eyes and pig noses, chests that nearly drag the ground and forward sloping back. That is just disgusting IMO.
> 
> I don't think that mixes are worth a crap for breeding and are for the most part going to be mediocre dogs for sports. I DO think they make a great pet for someone wanting the awesome aspects of owning a pit bull, without the dangerous amounts of drive present in hardcore game-bred lines.
> 
> I actually would recommend a mix for someone looking for a pit bull best friend. They are beautiful, maintain athletic ability, are trainable and much more docile than a full-on pit bull. I feel that is it the responsibility of the prospective owner to determine what bloodlines or mix thereof is going to suit their needs.
> 
> A one-dog, highly active and experienced home may opt for the true APBT or maybe I just missread your post LOL.
> 
> Others may want a huge bully, or a fat little pocket bully because they want a beefy dog.
> 
> Or, you might be like myself, where you want an intelligent, calm, strong an beautiful animal that is perfect to be your buddy. You can take him places, trust him not to destroy your home, and he is highly trainable and smart. They are GOOD dogs, if the right dogs are chosen. An excellent choice for someone who wants the excellent pitty character, without all the baggage.
> 
> That is my two cents worth.


Why not just own a Amstaff instead of a APBT or mix between the two. You just described the Amstaff or maybe I just miss understood your post.


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## Firehazard

Mcleod15 said:


> Thats a good post Firehazard you know alot about this breed and its history, but here is my thing, Since the whole bully breed has came about with all the mixing between Amstaffs and APBTs, what good has came from it up to this point? A bunch of horribably structured dogs? Any thing positive? From what I've seen mixing Gamedogs with bullys hasn't done crap for the breed to this point and I don't think it will. What I do think is all of this mixing will ruin the true APBT. Thank God there are still Old Dogmen and few up and coming dogmen that are keeping this breed alive and "*pure*".
> 
> Also I've heard that Dave Wilsons original Amstaff stock was tainted before even started the RE line. So that pretty much means this whole operation was screwed from the get go.
> 
> Its threads like this when we need Marty around.


The only way it means anything is like this.... If you have a dog registered APBT, then you promote it as a "Bully" then you are without registering your dog in a BULLY reg as a BULLY and you breed it back to a game dog then it is probably to regain genes manipulated out. People are inpatient and rather than breeding like the Old dog men they do what they do and now we have what we have. IF that dog BITES a PERSON then say it is a BULLY and not a PIT BULL.

Now if you have a gotti or a RE dog reg APBT and your promoting APBT then you are only improving the working quality and mental quality of your dog, by taking it to a gambred line.... Working dog trials and such, hog hunters the occasional over seas dog, this is how you create a name for working dogs so if you have a BadA$$ working dog that is half Gotti and half game dog then promote it as a gotti dog in competitions then you are promoting Gotti as a working dog.. You put a CLASSIC bully x a bingo dog or a mayday dog and you are going to have a working dog like your not gonna believe.. HOWEVER MAN BITERS WILL OCCUR BECAUSE THE LINES ARE ALL INBRED and NO ONE CULLS dogs anymore like they should. I think what you may be really hinting at, maybe, is why do different registeries call a Pit Bull different names.. POLITICS the red tape thats ment to confuse the truth. But when it does something negative in the press its a pit bull.. Such as the monster xl dogs covered in spikes in ghetto yards,promoting false propaganda in the media as pit bull even more. Amstaffs are pit bulls bred for looks, as I mentiond there are strong game lines today in the ADBA and the AKC, where do you think they were first? Classic Bully is a Amstaff APBT those others well, those deformities have been created before nothing new.

Only by American,  American Pit Bull Terrier that is...

ALL that in a nutshell, those other "breeds" LINES, need the APBT as it is the game gene that is sound and that is from wence they came.


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## GTR

Mcleod15 said:


> Why not just own a Amstaff instead of a APBT or mix between the two. You just described the Amstaff or maybe I just miss understood your post.


Because I already have a great dog, why would I trade him off for an AmStaff? That really doesn't make any sense. I didn't breed the dog. He is a cross between UKC standard and ADBA standard.

And on the subject of manbiters: yes, a dog's breeding will affect his predisposition to be aggressive towards people. HOWEVER, it is the owner's responsibility FIRST AND FOREMOST to adequately train and contain their animals. It's not fair to blame the breeding of dog. There are lots of breeds out there that are bred specifically for their abilities to "fight" men. Even these dogs can be contained and trained in a manner that makes them trust-able animals. It all boils down to the human end of the leash.


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## GTR

Multiple post


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## Firehazard

corvino, tacoma,colby,benedict,barneys going light are all lines in both adba as APBTs and akc as AmStaffs.... follow the history and the peds.. the pieces fit. If you notice I am only promoting the traditional game dog in mentality, form, and function... They come in many forms and thus the many lines but they are all of the same GENOTYPE, no matter what phenotype we manipulate they will always be genetically speaking Pit Bulls. SO therefore WHY BREED FOR ANYTHING ELSE? I can breed your bullys, staffs, ambulldogs whatever out in just a coule of generations of game dog breeding, while it take 10 years or more and those others still fighting being called pit bulls from again where they came. Follow the game dog breeding programs and pull the SHOW dogs as the ELITE dogs of that stock... EVERYTHING else is just selfish manipulation of what great dogmen left for us to cherish... JMO


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## GTR

Firehazard said:


> corvino, tacoma,colby,benedict,barneys going light are all line in both adba as APBTs and akc as AmStaffs.... follow the history and the peds.. the pieces fit.


Not following yer point here... 

I understand where AmStaffs came from. 

But the damage has long been done and it is entirely the unscrupulous breeders and irresponsible owners to blame. The people who want a true APBT will seek out that type of dog, and everyone else will get what they get: Petbulls, AmStaffs, and bullys alike.


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## Firehazard

Thats cuz it the punchline to the same fact I have repeating over and over... If you look back I have dern near pure jocko blood in my yard and Spike as you can see would be any AMstaff breeders dream.. He's a bear bitin fool... and 55lbs in that pick, Soon to come are videos of him working my regiment, and working a bear. NO SHOW DOG ABOUT HIM, but he SURE IS PRETTY huh... THATS WHAT I MEAN.. like those old men, LIKE I have repeated over and over, we should pull show dogs from working stock. scroll back and check SPike out. If you haven't got it by now; then I don't know what to tell ya, check out the stratton library, colbys book, faron, and dogs of velvet and steel.. then make your own assessments.. Todays slang terms turned tangible dont mean squat.. sht still stinks, and stinks even more the work your stir it... sticka fork in it Im dun'


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## GTR

Firehazard said:


> Thats cuz it the punchline to the same fact I have repeating over and over... If you look back I have dern near pure jocko blood in my yard and Spike as you can see would be any AMstaff breeders dream.. He's a bear bitin fool... and 55lbs in that pick, Soon to come are videos of him working my regiment, and working a bear. NO SHOW DOG ABOUT HIM, but he SURE IS PRETTY huh... THATS WHAT I MEAN.. like those old men, LIKE I have repeated over and over, we should pull show dogs from working stock. scroll back and check SPike out. If you haven't got it by now; then I don't know what to tell ya, check out the stratton library, colbys book, faron, and dogs of velvet and steel.. then make your own assessments.. Todays slang terms turned tangible dont mean squat.. sht still stinks, and stinks even more the work your stir it... sticka fork in it Im dun'


Oh okay. I get it. This is one of those "my dog is better than your's" things.

Working breeds have always had differences in type between those in the shows and those that do work, because pretty don't mean sh** in a working dog, and working ability doesn't mean sh** in the show ring. Just the way it is. Moaning and groanin' about it isn't gonna change anything. If you want to do something about it, bring your working stock to the shows.

I have my dogs because I enjoy them. Not to use as a penis extension.


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## reddoggy

GTR said:


> Oh okay. I get it. This is one of those "my dog is better than your's" things.
> 
> \


YOU are one to talk considering some of the comments YOU have made in this thread!


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## GTR

GTR said:


> Trance is a Game/Bully cross. UKC champion son X'd with Chinamen Bitch.
> 
> He's a good dog. Real healthy and intelligent, but as good as a dog he is, I'd never breed him. He's a great dog, but only the healthiest and best and most consistent should be bred, unless the outcross is for a specific purpose.





GTR said:


> Bullies are bullies, no matter what the registry. If it is a Gotti/RE etc etc UKC or ABKC its still an American Bully, even if it has APBT papers. It's about bloodlines, NOT registries.





GTR said:


> Like I said before it's about bloodlines not registries. This is not going to go anywhere.
> 
> Trance's father is a bully. His dad is UKC Ch 386 Kennel's Griffon on Top of the World, which is an American Bully. His mother was old school Chinaman which is an APBT. Griffon is a UKC Bully registered as an APBT, and is a UKC Champion as an APBT. Though, he is clearly not an APBT.
> ]





GTR said:


> Hey Dixie, whozzat there in your avatar? I'm a huge metal fan. Mostly Scandinavian MDM though...





GTR said:


> Aha! Alas...I have not listened to their tunes.... >.o Though I have heard of them.





GTR said:


> Well, I got an awesome all-around dog out of it so I'm not complaining. I'd rather have a 1/2 and 1/2 mix than a poorly bred basset-hound whats-it that I see. Or these ugly p*ss poor dogs with those hideous round eyes and pig noses, chests that nearly drag the ground and forward sloping back. That is just disgusting IMO.
> 
> I don't think that mixes are worth a crap for breeding and are for the most part going to be mediocre dogs for sports. I DO think they make a great pet for someone wanting the awesome aspects of owning a pit bull, without the dangerous amounts of drive present in hardcore game-bred lines.
> 
> I actually would recommend a mix for someone looking for a pit bull best friend. They are beautiful, maintain athletic ability, are trainable and much more docile than a full-on pit bull. I feel that is it the responsibility of the prospective owner to determine what bloodlines or mix thereof is going to suit their needs.
> 
> A one-dog, highly active and experienced home may opt for the true APBT.
> 
> Others may want a huge bully, or a fat little pocket bully because they want a beefy dog.
> 
> Or, you might be like myself, where you want an intelligent, calm, strong an beautiful animal that is perfect to be your buddy. You can take him places, trust him not to destroy your home, and he is highly trainable and smart. They are GOOD dogs, if the right dogs are chosen. An excellent choice for someone who wants the excellent pitty character, without all the baggage.
> 
> That is my two cents worth.





GTR said:


> Because I already have a great dog, why would I trade him off for an AmStaff? That really doesn't make any sense. I didn't breed the dog. He is a cross between UKC standard and ADBA standard.
> 
> And on the subject of manbiters: yes, a dog's breeding will affect his predisposition to be aggressive towards people. HOWEVER, it is the owner's responsibility FIRST AND FOREMOST to adequately train and contain their animals. It's not fair to blame the breeding of dog. There are lots of breeds out there that are bred specifically for their abilities to "fight" men. Even these dogs can be contained and trained in a manner that makes them trust-able animals. It all boils down to the human end of the leash.





GTR said:


> Multiple post





GTR said:


> Not following yer point here...
> 
> I understand where AmStaffs came from.
> 
> But the damage has long been done and it is entirely the unscrupulous breeders and irresponsible owners to blame. The people who want a true APBT will seek out that type of dog, and everyone else will get what they get: Petbulls, AmStaffs, and bullys alike.





GTR said:


> Oh okay. I get it. This is one of those "my dog is better than your's" things.
> 
> Working breeds have always had differences in type between those in the shows and those that do work, because pretty don't mean sh** in a working dog, and working ability doesn't mean sh** in the show ring. Just the way it is. Moaning and groanin' about it isn't gonna change anything. If you want to do something about it, bring your working stock to the shows.
> 
> I have my dogs because I enjoy them. Not to use as a penis extension.


Here is EVERY post I made in this thread. Now please tell me what "comments" you are referring to?

I'm sorry, but pitting a bear against a dog and bragging about it kinda rubs me the wrong way. I don't see any logical reason for that.

I don't think that leaving me bad rep is quite fair, considering. Does anyone else think this is fair?


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## reddoggy

YOU

Well, I got an awesome all-around dog out of it so I'm not complaining. I'd rather have a 1/2 and 1/2 mix than a poorly bred basset-hound whats-it that I see. Or these ugly p*ss poor dogs with those hideous round eyes and pig noses, chests that nearly drag the ground and forward sloping back. That is just disgusting IMO.


I don't think it's up to anybody else to do what they feel with my rep. I like pockets, I disagree with you, you were not so nice about how you stated your feelings about them when we already know.... So yeah, I'd say that's pretty fair. I also reported the post as bully bashing


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## Firehazard

Na.. lol my dog is not better than your dog, the old man; he's recently been put down. If thats what you got from all I posted, then you have ignored the fact that you and I agree that bloodlines make your dog; what we don't agree on is that all the bully breeds and Amstaffs are a BLOODLINE of APBT.. Genotype is solid in all bully breeds, despite what phenotype has been manipulated and made dominant, they are "pit bulls" so thats why it takes so long to breed the "pit bull" out... YET a game dog breeder can take any of those lines and they will disapear in the blood from which there genotype ORIGINATED... Does that make sense... LOL my dog better than your dog... oh boy...


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## LadyRampage

I know I'm new to the board but what exactly is a "show" dog? It almost seems like it is talking about UKC type dogs....

I have show dogs. ADBA shows dogs that are gamebred lines. I also have a male that I bred that is HEAVY Bullyson, Jocko, and Eli that could very easily pass for a bully. I have classic lines, linebred colby, that don't tend to do well in the ADBA ring but MIGHT be ok in UKC (which they are still registered with). 

APBTs come in all shapes and sizes. Personally the Bully crowd tend to go extreme, but there are some correct bullys out there I admire, but also some train wrecks being bred that make me want to slap some sense into the owners/breeders.

It comes down to preference. I don't agree with taking a bred of dogs that have been working dogs for generations and turning them into short, wide non-working dogs. 

As for crossing "show" to game... and the examples given... Bully is a different type/breed of dogs in my opinion, and I wouldn't advise it.


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## Mach0

I think it's about preference. I like old working lines and a friend of mine has a mayday line bred male. He's not for the average person and needs an experienced owner who understands game bred dogs.
I have had a few myself and I have a adba registered male who seems to have some bully mixed in. He's very nice looking , not too big, muscular an d weighs 60 lbs all muscle ( 18 inches tall and a 20 inch head). However, he lacks the dog aggression and is less inclined to please me as much as my other pits in the past. He's much calmer yet can handle the excercise and playing around , while still having some favorable "pit bull"characteristics 
.
If that makes any sense
if I can do it again, I will go back to game bred( more of what I like )


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