# What is an amstaff?



## ali_lee (Sep 12, 2013)

Can anyone tell me what two breeds make an "amstaff"? Im just curious


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

The Am Staff is a breed... AKC recognizes the American Staffordshire Terrier (often referred to here as an Am Staff or AST). It is a breed in itself. If you have a friend or family member who owns one that has registration papers and a pedigree, perhaps they'll allow you to study up on the pedigree and you can see for yourself that the Am Staff actually goes back into the original APBT (American Pit Bull Terrier). The short version of why it's now a different breed, is because the AKC wanted to recognize the dogs, but wanted to completely remove the association with the pit (fighting), so they decided to call the dogs Staffordshire Terriers, which later conflicted with the recognition of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, so they dubbed it the American Staffordshire Terrier. These dogs were created with the purpose of being show dogs, basically, and were intended to have little to no DA (Dog Aggression). However, ever now and then, a little bit of the foreground of this breed does shine through. I hope that has helped you.


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## ali_lee (Sep 12, 2013)

Oh right thanks, i was told it was an americAn bulldog crosses with a staffy? So i was lied to??


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

You could have possibly. I don't know the source of your information, so I won't venture to call anyone a liar, as that's not my style. I did go back and elaborate on my original answer to help give a better understanding. There are other threads here somewhere that actually break it down better than I did. Or I'm sure someone with more knowledge will post up a better answer here than I have. I just posted the simplified version.


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

hahaha.....lied to is such a strong word............why don't we say u was misinformed............


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## ali_lee (Sep 12, 2013)

So an american bulldog crossed with a staff isnt an amstaff? Its just a cross breed?


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

uh..........no it aint...............is zat what yo dog is?...is it amstaff or amer.bulldog x amstaff???????????????????????????


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

welder said:


> hahaha.....lied to is such a strong word............why don't we say u was misinformed............


Thanks Welder!



ali_lee said:


> So an american bulldog crossed with a staff isnt an amstaff? Its just a cross breed?


Correct, just like if you mix any random two breeds of dog, then you just have a cross breed, or mutt.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

ali_lee said:


> So an american bulldog crossed with a staff isnt an amstaff? Its just a cross breed?


The AmStaff has been a breed far longer than the American Bulldog... if ur a gearhead that's like saying the Camaro came from a Cavalier. 

If u mix an AmBulldog with a StaffyBull u get a mutt.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Dont hate on cavaliers. I had a beast of one.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Dont hate on cavaliers. I had a beast of one.


I had a 91 that survived my senior year in high school. We dubbed it the No Fear Cavalier.... but u know that the Z24 doesnt hold a candle to a Z28


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

ali_lee said:


> Oh right thanks, i was told it was an americAn bulldog crosses with a staffy? So i was lied to??


 Short answer............YES.

*EVERY* AST is of the same genetic stock as *every* APBT. The AST didn't exist prior to 1936 when a slew of APBTs woke up one morning magically transformed into American Staffordshire Terriers.

There is *no* American Bulldog in the AST , none. And ABs have their own considerable can of worms what with the infighting between the Johnson , Scott and Painter dog crowds.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

the APBT was originally founded with old bull dogs and terriers from England. People confuse this with current day breeds of the same names. It is not the same.

I also do not think the APBT and the AST are the same breed, they may have started out that way but just like many other breeds when they get selectively bred for a different purpose it changes what they are. They may have started out that way, kinda like the American Bully started as a pitterstaff, but they are all their own breeds.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

ali_lee said:


> So an american bulldog crossed with a staff isnt an amstaff? Its just a cross breed?


I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You bought a dog that they call an amstaff? Correct? As in American Staffordshire terrier? They told you to get an am staff you take the AMERICAN bulldog and a STAFFORDSHIRE terrier and those puppies become American Staffordshire's? Not at all. The amstaff is its own breed.

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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

ames said:


> the APBT was originally founded with old bull dogs and terriers from England. People confuse this with current day breeds of the same names. It is not the same.
> 
> I also do not think the APBT and the AST are the same breed, they may have started out that way but just like many other breeds when they get selectively bred for a different purpose it changes what they are. .


 Sure but how far you willing to go with that? Define APBT? which registry? See here's the problem , if you apply to above to ASTs you'll need to apply it to the UKC dogs too. Which exhibit of course much the same phenotype as the ASTs.

Where do you/we draw that line? Now it's no secret here where my affections for/with the breed reside , that said I get around the paradox with the opinion that they're all APBts ( basically) , but they're not "Bulldogs" , those dogs being found in other ranks and registries.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I'm with Ames, I don't consider the AmStaff and the apbt the same breed either.... and its not about registry.... Its about the blood.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

mccoypitbulls said:


> i think they are different type.
> Pit bull - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - they updated it - all be a monkeys uncle


 The AST section of that is completely erroneous , completely.

An example.........one of the most famous of AKC stud dogs , foundation dog of a great many folks blood. Follow this back , you'll arrive at the same place as with ADBA/UKC/etc APBTs...........which doesn't quite square with their entry on ASTs.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [15182] :: THE RUFFIAN


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

yeah registries don't count IMO they are about there are many dogs who aren't registered and their peds are handwritten, would you consider them not an APBT? It really depends as well.

Bull dog to me is the genetic term of any dog that can happen to have bull dogs in their history. bull dog to me is not just an Old English Bulldog, Or an American Bull Dog Johnson type, etc. They are all the dog who have been founded with some type of bull dog. Then we can start playing the game of semantics when you say pit bull you should only mean a TRUE APBT. 

Not trying to assume or put words in your fingers but what I gather is to you a bull dog is a game dog, not just a dog that can have a bull dog in their bloodlines. To me a bull dog is not just an APBT. there are many breeds and mutts that can be called bull dogs in the general bull dog term.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

ames said:


> yeah registries don't count IMO they are about there are many dogs who aren't registered and their peds are handwritten, would you consider them not an APBT? It really depends as well.
> 
> Bull dog to me is the genetic term of any dog that can happen to have bull dogs in their history. bull dog to me is not just an Old English Bulldog, Or an American Bull Dog Johnson type, etc. They are all the dog who have been founded with some type of bull dog. Then we can start playing the game of semantics when you say pit bull you should only mean a TRUE APBT.
> 
> Not trying to assume or put words in your fingers but what I gather is to you a bull dog is a game dog, not just a dog that can have a bull dog in their bloodlines. To me a bull dog is not just an APBT. there are many breeds and mutts that can be called bull dogs in the general bull dog term.


 My scope of definition is a good deal narrower than yours , I also think you may have missed a minor facet of the broader picture , if we start drawing those arbitrary lines among dogs who share *exactly* the same genetic stock as a base and whom are have been and still are *interbred* it will have a negative effect sociopolitically , divide and conquer will be exercised.

And nope it's no secret that I like the ADBA or gamebred type of dog , it's also no secret what I mean by the colloquial usage of the term " bulldog".

To the average member of the public at large the term " Bulldog" means the EB , so my usage of that term is admittedly *very* narrow , if I'm talking about another breed of Bulldog I generally identify it by breed i.e. F.B. , E.B. 
A.B etc.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

mccoypitbulls said:


> I'm with that..great dog n nice classic line.


 I've had many an AST divisionist run that " AmStaffs are a different breed all the way back to the Olde Countries " line on me , they then quite often will turn around and try to cite Black Jack as an AmStaff , along with the below dog , trouble is that they have no answer for the whys of APBTs tracing back to the exact same places. Run down the progeny list for a rogues gallery of dogs famous to both " breeds".

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [5650] :: *COLBY'S PINCHER (24XW) *


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

OldDog said:


> I've had many an AST divisionist run that " AmStaffs are a different breed all the way back to the Olde Countries " line on me , they then quite often will turn around and try to cite Black Jack as an AmStaff , along with the below dog , trouble is that they have no answer for the whys of APBTs tracing back to the exact same places. Run down the progeny list for a rogues gallery of dogs famous to both " breeds".
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [5650] :: *COLBY'S PINCHER (24XW) *


*

Out of curiosity Olddog, how is a UKC APBT that looks like an AmStaff different from an AKC AmStaff that can be traced back to dogs off the boat?

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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Katey said:


> Out of curiosity Olddog, how is a UKC APBT that looks like an AmStaff different from an AKC AmStaff that can be traced back to dogs off the boat?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 In registry. That's it. And *every* registered APBT or AST from any registry can be traced right back to the boat , or very close.

Something to keep in mind here , the UKC was founded in 1898 by Chauncey Bennett for the sole purpose of registering the APBT , the AKC didn't recognise the AST and play their little semantic games with the breed's name until 1936.

And the AKC stud book has been open for cross registration at a variety of times since 1936.

The revisionist history I pointed out in the Wiki entry is often perpetuated by Staff folks who wish to completely distance then selves form the UKC/ADBA dogs , they cannot however accomplish that task since they ( again) all go back to the same base and said base isn't a huge number of individual dogs.


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

OldDog said:


> In registry. That's it. And *every* registered APBT or AST from any registry can be traced right back to the boat , or very close.
> 
> Something to keep in mind here , the UKC was founded in 1898 by Chauncey Bennett for the sole purpose of registering the APBT , the AKC didn't recognise the AST and play their little semantic games with the breed's name until 1936.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up for me.

By cross registration do you mean registering an APBT as a AmStaff? So moving from a UKC registration to a AKC registration?

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## ali_lee (Sep 12, 2013)

I havnt bought an american bull cross, i was only asking because some said to thats what amstaff are! Thanks for all ur help


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

pit bull dogs, pit bull terriers, game bull terriers all counter part names to the going show bred SBT of colonial times, all known as bulldogs as well.. The Boston Terrier was Boston Bull Terrier and it was a smaller more bulldog like pit dog found heavily in the Boston area; they bred themselves in a corner with size and used a french bulldog to cross out to forever changing the dna of the boston terrier from a pit bulldog to a show bulldog sometimes a working boston pops up but its not bred for. The SBT is a show bred dog and work and function are thought of last much like the AST, these staffordshire dogs are all bulldogs from the same dna source. If you took a performance bred AST stock slipped it down south to be proven that dog would be a Pit Bulldog and registered and bred as an APBT to see if he produced. OR they could say they had the only proven AST still game in the world.  WHICH would lose them their AKC status as the AST was a step to seperate the dog from the []. They quit focusing on work all together as they have with many UKC dogs of today. ADBA breeders are falling in suit slowly and more reluctantly. The Boxer was the same as the APBT/AST/SBT in the 1900s it was over time they bred and inbred for the Boxer we know of today; that is not the german fighting bulldog but an English showbred derivative. But DNA wise they're all the same... whats different is work, ability and heart.


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## STiLL WILL (May 1, 2013)

Firehazard said:


> pit bull dogs, pit bull terriers, game bull terriers all counter part names to the going show bred SBT of colonial times, all known as bulldogs as well.. The Boston Terrier was Boston Bull Terrier and it was a smaller more bulldog like pit dog found heavily in the Boston area; they bred themselves in a corner with size and used a french bulldog to cross out to forever changing the dna of the boston terrier from a pit bulldog to a show bulldog sometimes a working boston pops up but its not bred for. The SBT is a show bred dog and work and function are thought of last much like the AST, these staffordshire dogs are all bulldogs from the same dna source. If you took a performance bred AST stock slipped it down south to be proven that dog would be a Pit Bulldog and registered and bred as an APBT to see if he produced. OR they could say they had the only proven AST still game in the world.  WHICH would lose them their AKC status as the AST was a step to seperate the dog from the []. They quit focusing on work all together as they have with many UKC dogs of today. ADBA breeders are falling in suit slowly and more reluctantly. The Boxer was the same as the APBT/AST/SBT in the 1900s it was over time they bred and inbred for the Boxer we know of today; that is not the german fighting bulldog but an English showbred derivative. But DNA wise they're all the same... whats different is work, ability and heart.


FH,

I've seen you explain this many times, and every time you add just a little something different or with a little twist.....and every___single___time I pick up and learn me on that little something extra/different you put in. Thanks!!

What Stan posted above me is why people should know what it means to throw around a word like "pitbull."

Great stuff as always man.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Katey said:


> Thanks for clearing that up for me.
> 
> So moving from a UKC registration to a AKC registration?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 No moving to it , dual registration..................


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Firehazard said:


> pit bull dogs, pit bull terriers, game bull terriers all counter part names to the going show bred SBT of colonial times, all known as bulldogs as well.. The Boston Terrier was Boston Bull Terrier and it was a smaller more bulldog like pit dog found heavily in the Boston area; they bred themselves in a corner with size and used a french bulldog to cross out to forever changing the dna of the boston terrier from a pit bulldog to a show bulldog sometimes a working boston pops up but its not bred for. The SBT is a show bred dog and work and function are thought of last much like the AST, these staffordshire dogs are all bulldogs from the same dna source. If you took a performance bred AST stock slipped it down south to be proven that dog would be a Pit Bulldog and registered and bred as an APBT to see if he produced. OR they could say they had the only proven AST still game in the world.  WHICH would lose them their AKC status as the AST was a step to seperate the dog from the []. They quit focusing on work all together as they have with many UKC dogs of today. ADBA breeders are falling in suit slowly and more reluctantly. The Boxer was the same as the APBT/AST/SBT in the 1900s it was over time they bred and inbred for the Boxer we know of today; that is not the german fighting bulldog but an English showbred derivative. But DNA wise they're all the same... whats different is work, ability and heart.


Thanks for sharing your knowledge FH. As always I learned a little more about something I thought I knew. 



OldDog said:


> No moving to it , dual registration..................


Thanks Olddog.

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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Theres no pic of him online but in Colbys book there is. Cammett's Flash was triple registered... APBT, AST, and SBT!!! Many dogs off of em..

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [843] :: CAMMETT'S FLASH

https://www.google.com/search?q=cammetts+flash+apbt+online+ped&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.52434380,d.cGE,pv.xjs.s.en_US.RJfod4swqLE.O&biw=1600&bih=799&dpr=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=-ZJBUry3GseXiQLJ34CABw

A letter to Colby from the Stafforshire Society or something of that sort also said the breed; formally known as:....... "grand ol' breed" is the signature foot header at the bottom of the letter. The AST is a collaboration of mostly APBTs from honest stock and SBTs. ALL 3 were ONE at one time in this country. The SBT bein the early showpart and APBT being the working bulldog and game bull terrier of antiquity.

The EB and such well those are the manipulations that these bully folks are playing with all mixed up much like early leavitt dogs or johnson bulldogs some of them bullys have american bulldog, bostons, whopper, and well.. thats enough scattered diversity to cause guaranteed inconsistency to be far and wide. The hand full of folks with great bully dogs are the ones that need to set down with eh UKC and the ABKC would be the "bonafide bullies" LOL handled right, thats how it'd be done. With all the bullies bein in once class under UKC (as with the APBT mutli facets of size and function) let ABKC have the Classic, XL, Pocket and what not, but all dogs had to come through UKC or be UKC registered as Bullies as well and BAM! the stock gets cleaned up.. and all these street bullies will continue to wash the street "pits" which will become far and wide and the working dogs will be few and far in between  UKC APBT stock should get more ADBA breeders involved to clean up their UKC stock with working dog ability and vigor. The AKC AST will become more bully like in folks eyes than APBT as this all unfolds as well.


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