# what makes a bloodline 101



## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

According to the adba the pitbull world is a little mixed up on what is actually a bloodline. Now the general rule is no single dog can create a bloodline. this is because simply put no dog can be bred back to itself. this means that any offsprings dna is not 100% the same as the dog given credit for the bloodline.if it was it would be a clone hence cloning. SO we as lovers of great dogs love to immortalize them by stamping a bloodline with their names.take honeybunch for instance. every time they bred this bitch she threw game dogs.they couldnt breed her wrong. she threw jeep. who according to the adba and "nature" isnt even a bloodline.thats right jeep isnt a bloodline friends-hes 25%carver,25%boudreaux,50% loposay cross.my argument is this-the pitbull world should focus on giving credit to the breeder/breeders who have spent thier lives raising breeding and creating these fine dogs than any one single dog.thats my 2cents. ive got 98 more cents left. anybody reading this?check out www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=39


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Good post, not new news.. however:

Hammonds, Colby, Boudreaux.. all families all strains.. Colby is a step above the others because it is a bloodline as well that most all APBTs are founded in. Boudreaux is close his entire line is built on 1 dog bred to his daughters and neices of dble bred litters this one dog is Blind Billy.. Then he used dogs down from Blind Billy.. Yes Jeep was scatter bred and that Loposay was actually pure colby dogs. Loposay ran two strains. Colby was his most used. When saying Loposay you must underline as to which of his two strains. Jeep dogs have been stacked and inbred to the max and they have bred themselves into a corner for the most part aiming for pure jeep. Your right and wrong.. if its a family of dogs it should be known by the breeders name: Patrick, Hammonds, Clouse, Colby,Boudreaux, chavis .. if it is a strain of dogs it should be named by the family or the dog itself. Just contact the adba and ask them if colby is a family, a strain, and a bloodline.. then ask about the others. Most people use the term line or bloodline when infact they mean strain or substrain. In fact most all strains are sub strains of colby or colby and old family crosses known as OFRN. Everything has colby in the foundation very few did not and eve less do not today. People also use the term blood instead of dna in the manner of speaking of traits and genetics.


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

*thank you*

i have never heard anyone explain the actual breakdown that constitutes a bloodline better than you in your reply to my post. you obviously are a very educated person about the bulldog.i appreciate your input and look forward to seeing more of your threads. :cheers:


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

ok, greenhorn question! what makes the diff between bloodline and strain? i've only been into this stuff since i started here on GP.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Im going to explain it like this.. 








Check out the map; you see there are bloodlines: Apache, Commanche, Shoshone.. and there are strains and substrains(lil family tribes) off of those bloodlines. The Strains belong to the bloodline of original language and geological region which is colored, kept tight this bloodline can be under a different tribal name and using each other to keep the old blood tight.. For instance Shoshone is actually the source of the apache and commanche they broke off and traveled south and are cousin tribes that often traded women for wives. Even though they had different relgious aspects they honored the line inwhich they came, OLD FAMILY, the commanches were slave traders as well and inducted PROVEN tribal members, they game tested even their women. All the southern plains and even many of the Aztec Indians came from Shoshone area EARLY and traveled south. Cheyenne broke off early from a bloodline and formed their own strain that became their own bloodline or family just like the Apaches, and Commanches.. all those lil tribes and offshoots are the strains and substrains from them. Boudreaux is near its own bloodline of dogs much like colby because its untouched and old blood taken back into each other and bred together over a millinea. But now everyone is crossing boudreaux out so the pedigrees tend to scatter when they finally get to be where they need to be to be a bloodline. Even though most would consider Boudreaux a bloodline already. I do not because its to easily varied when outcrossed. You outcross to the bloodline of Colby or OFRN (pick a strain) and you will see obviously that your dogs are half colby, or OFRN. The blood is older and also the source of other strains and substrains such as boudreaux built on blind billy an Old family dog with a lil bit of colby. So if you take Colby or OFRN to it; it will dominate .. 
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [232617] :: GUK'S HOBO
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [103556] :: CH. WHITEHEAD
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [55126] :: *MBKS & SHAOLIN'S WHITEHEAD**
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [11116] :: GAMBLER'S VIRGIL (5XW)

See how the COLBY genetics dominate in all crosses? OFRN does the same thing crossed into. Because they are the foundation source the bloodline.

There is the Colby bloodline and the OFRN bloodline... everything out there is dominated by these genetics crossed back into just for that reason. SO they are strains and substrains *


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

Its NOT a greenhorn question buddy. To me the term bloodline is open to debate-a HUGE debate. the term has been misconstrued over the years and the actual definition has been changed and obscured.this makes finding the real definition of bloodline confusing at best. to me bloodline refers to a certain type of characteristics that were bred for by breeders of bulldogs.
Now that definition would allow almost any breeder to claim they have a new bloodline.
And according to the adba they dont.
IF you wanted to define it in a unobscurable and definitive definition(everyone is gonna be pissed at me) the great American pitbull terrier is the "bloodline". your dog is of american pitbull terrier blood. every other dogs name on your registry papers contributed to your dogs make up-which were all pitbull. there is no apbt so distinguished to me that would classify as a new blood type of apbt. to some there were two original bloodlines colby and old family red nose- all else were breed from those bloodlines. the strain are the dogs with the certain characteristics they were purposely breed for(mouth,level of aggresion,weight,gameness,etc) by breeders whose pups now consistantly show these traits.but are not new bloodlines.if i am wrong can someone please tell me how many generations it takes to actually create a bloodline?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Good post.. in general speaking of bulldog breeds the APBT is the bloodline of bulldog as is the AST and so on.. HOWEVER... Colby and OFRN are the only two BLOODLINES in the APBT they are almost their own dog. They are the father and mother to ALL strains and sub strains. Because both are in both AST and APBT and BOTH are just as strong genetically in those strains as any other strain or substrain when crosssed into or back into. Hell there are some whopper dog colby crosses and you can sure tell there is colby. OFRN is the same way.


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

firehazard u are one badass bulldog person i am so glad you can explain this like you do. i appreciate your time in trying to help us understand. thank you


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Thankya.. Your more than welcome... I hope it helps ya.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

A strain is defined as "a variety within a variety" according to Stratton. Since I am particular to the OFRN, I came across another Strattonism... the Old Family was a strain of the old Irish dogs, the Old Family Reds were a strain of the Old Family, and the OFRN a strain of the Old Family Reds. There does seem to be a play on words in the bulldog world because strain, line, segment, and breeder's name (Wallace "strain", for example) all seem to be used interchangeably just to make the waters even more murky.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Murky waters is right! I'm startin to understand I think. Let me try this then.... so what most refer to as bloodline is really what? Substrain? Jeep for example would be a substrain of Loposay? 

I want to understand but its a lot to wrap my head around. But thank u all for the knowledge so far! And see Jman, we are a friendly forum


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> A strain is defined as "a variety within a variety" according to Stratton. Since I am particular to the OFRN, I came across another Strattonism... the Old Family was a strain of the old Irish dogs, the Old Family Reds were a strain of the Old Family, and the OFRN a strain of the Old Family Reds. There does seem to be a play on words in the bulldog world because strain, line, segment, and breeder's name (Wallace "strain", for example) all seem to be used interchangeably just to make the waters even more murky.


murky waters from slang terms and euphamnisms become common clature and what most see as facts. Irish dogs were small and wirey them old lightener and hemphill dogs were large red houndish type bulldogs with game and wind like no other, most had red noses some did not some were even brindled red red. Follow the oldest dogs back and those Lightener dogs predate the Irish flood. ... This lil tid bit also coensides with that Catahoula dogs were here before most of the english immigrants, because those old spanish bulldogs crossed with indian pirahs made the catahoula. There were Spanish in Florida and the keys before the English claimed pre US soil. So with that comes the common knowledge that they all carried bulldogs for fighting and for fighting(waring)  The spanish bulldogs were the now extinct bloodline of DDB. Those OLD FAMILY dogs are kept record and show on pedigree back dang near to the civil war. I do remember that part in strattons book but I think there was or is a catch information wise and he mentions this or maybe its in one of the colby books.. Hmmm gotta look that one up but it seems like info I already processed and the OF coming from Ireland is misunderstanding from slang terms. I do like to think that Old Family is Irish but the facts to support that don't add up. Follow the irish dogs they get smaller and more intense game wise lil balls of fire, the lightener dogs and cochoran and others were quite large and red on red quite often if not all the time. They pulled in the irish dogs off the boat just like colby did and thats the difference. Colby was Irish/English .. Lightener was irish/spanish.. Corcoran was irish and heavy on paddy just like colby and the crosses Ligthener used were colbys tight paddy dogs. When you see colby into them its because they had the same irish stock, they didnt want that english stock but wanted to bring the size down some and maintain the fire its obvious in their breeding on pedigree. Ligthener gave em all up for smaller and less game and english dogs. Ironic aint it? He had the oldest blood in the world next with colby a close 2nd. The older those dogs the more dogue they look as far as Old Family even the old bulldog pictures of the 1890s look much like the bulldogue pictured in the sketch below.

They brought some dogs with them like maybe one or two then bred them to the bulldogs in that country side that were there, then time goes by Lightener and Colby rub shoulders and he pulls in more irish blood which is why the OF dogs werent over weight and barrelled more agile and stream lined even for big dogs. BUT as Lightener stated he couldnt bring the size down and wanted away from big red dogs. Kept PURE and into itself they never were able to bring the size down, more colby blood gets introduced and the size comes down. Wilder and Hemphill all had large dogs. Colby favored the Irish dogs over the english dogs and used more Irish than english the proof is also in the pedigrees. People like to say colby is all english but really its mostly irish. Follow your own pedigrees all the way back  you'll see what Im talking about. If irish dogs were known for being small and gamey there is no reasons that Lightener having the oldest old family dogs couldnt have had small dogs but he said they were to large meaning they didnt breed down. He was as good as breeder as Colby so there is a lot in a statement like that from him.









Compare to Original Bulldog ... who came from ^^^ the fighting dog of gaul the original extinct bloodline or foundation strain of DDB.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

I like the way you write FH...I can understand what you are saying!  it's a lot to take in and digest but it is truly fascinating!


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

and firehazard made his scratch. thanks DOGMAN I NOW UNDERSTAND.
NOT BECAUSE I LOVE THEM- BUT BECAUSE THEY LOVE ME.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I ain't arguing with you Stan, just so we're straight on that Scratch? Stan vs. Stratton? Stratton can't spar LOL. On page 225 of The Best of the APBT Stratton answers a question about Old Family Reds and OFRN. He says the Old Family Reds were a segment(strain?) of the Old Family (strain of old Irish dogs, generally small, very highly bred, and renowned for their gameness...the Gashouse dogs stemmed in the main from this family). He then concludes by saying that the OFRN was a segment of the Old Family Red strain. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding his conclusions or it has been overly simplified on paper, IDK. Stratton does mention the fact that Lightner (and family) had imported from Ireland Pre Civil War, utilizing the Old Family Reds for his OFRN strain BUT eventually did give up on that strain due to size and nose color. Lightner then became involved in with a second strain of dogs.
Stratton said that this small, variable colored strain of Lightner " is one of the great mysteries of Pit Bull history" because no one knew where he got this strain from LOL. Confusing.


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

Idk -i truely dont. I have not read the book,but i will. What doesnt make sense is that the man would give up on a dog because of its nose color,especially if they were winning. Game not the"look"
mentality created our breed. If not we would of had 125lb "blue pitbulls" alot sooner.?????????


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

man, I knew you werent arguing, I just figure I better not leave any gaps.. In no way am I aruging stratton rather take what he says and put it in the pot with the other authors of authority on the breed. yes sir and I checked and confirmed. I will look through my litterature for other mentions of lightener most all confirm he had stock that was from the civil war times supposedly and no one knew where they came from. .. but yeah so if old family is irish and small then why were the wilder hemphill and lightener dogs so big? Yes there is other litterature on Lightener and him switching stock. His own blood Searcys Jeff beat Colorados IMPII his own english/irish blood that he favored over the big dogs after how long? He always favored the lil dogs thats why he kept crossing into the irish but his OLD Family just didnt breed down. Then he just switchfoot, and took the heavy if not all paddy dogs with english outs.. Hmmm?? shoulda stuck with his old blood because it didnt pan out like the big red dogs. 

Old family reds have always been heavily irish influenced the oldest dogs in the ped that predate colby are not irish .. I'd still like to think that however and for the most part it is all irish... its just the oldest dogs are most likely dogues and Old Family is the reference to Spain. Like any good dog man he kept his formula secret and the Old Family slang term was easily played with.. all we have to do is compare the dogs.. 

Lightener, hemphill, Wilder all were very dogue like except the snipey head however they throw/threw brick like bulldog heads too. Houndish in look they were and are large and rangy. There is another large rangy strain, the hammonds stuff that is built on rufus and alligator, because he had the body of the old family dogs. look at alligators bottom half on a 7 shes all old family /OFR and breeding alligator back to her to get rufus well that just doubled up on that and locked it into the dna format for that family of dogs as most all of them have the hammonds family look. Get em red with a red nose and they look almost to the T of some wilder hemphill stock.. 

Paddy and Paddy stock was the heavily used irish dogs its what colby was built on and what black jack, braddock, fighting peter,.. .. all of them were paddy stacked dogs. Fergusons Centipede was paddy and colby influenced Lightener and in some of that Lightener you see it go back to a couple of spanish dogs with no further ped; while all the other dogs go back to paddy.. This means he HAD old dogs.. there genetics were strong and carried a mutation or coding that the other strains just didn't have. It may take a day or two or three, take your time and disect them peds, and see how many actually go back to paddy bred dogs (ALOT) .. Some go back to SBT that were proven and scatterbred some go back to the irish imports not of colby, farmers turk for example has dogs that were imported in the mid 1800s in his 4 and 5 gen on his pedigree and other dogs go back further to dogues. The first scotts/irish came in the 1740/50s which is in bulldog hsitory as well as history and the 1850s came the irish surge.For instance Delihant is a name that goes back to the old country and is associate with clergy. The English surged at this time too. Its easy to remember the irish dogs were small and mighty they were able to be carried under coats into the mines, factories, and fields.. ... .. Lightener having the purest quitting them cause they're to large... Then look at whats at hand. besides his stock not many had dogs that didnt have colby or predate it if any. Corvino stuff has lightener but is heavily influenced by colby dogs. Look at Lightener Joker, this is a dog that was old for his time. 

I know the pieces fit; I watched them fall away~


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

I'll find the article Amy Greenwood Burford wrote for ADBA regarding bloodlines as well as Sadie's commentary and thoughts about it. Great insight. I shall do it tomorrow though. Going to bed.


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

I included a link to that writting by her in my first comment. Just clik on it.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> I'll find the article Amy Greenwood Burford wrote for ADBA regarding bloodlines as well as Sadie's commentary and thoughts about it. Great insight. I shall do it tomorrow though. Going to bed.


Thanks hotmama. Just had to say it.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> man, I knew you werent arguing, I just figure I better not leave any gaps.. In no way am I aruging stratton rather take what he says and put it in the pot with the other authors of authority on the breed. yes sir and I checked and confirmed. I will look through my litterature for other mentions of lightener most all confirm he had stock that was from the civil war times supposedly and no one knew where they came from. .. but yeah so if old family is irish and small then why were the wilder hemphill and lightener dogs so big? Yes there is other litterature on Lightener and him switching stock. His own blood Searcys Jeff beat Colorados IMPII his own english/irish blood that he favored over the big dogs after how long? He always favored the lil dogs thats why he kept crossing into the irish but his OLD Family just didnt breed down. Then he just switchfoot, and took the heavy if not all paddy dogs with english outs.. Hmmm?? shoulda stuck with his old blood because it didnt pan out like the big red dogs.
> 
> Old family reds have always been heavily irish influenced the oldest dogs in the ped that predate colby are not irish .. I'd still like to think that however and for the most part it is all irish... its just the oldest dogs are most likely dogues and Old Family is the reference to Spain. Like any good dog man he kept his formula secret and the Old Family slang term was easily played with.. all we have to do is compare the dogs..
> 
> ...


I have always wondered why the OFRN "ran big". Can size be thought of in "trait" terms? I realize that what determines a bulldog's size involves many factors, but can size be "dominantly" or "recessively" thought of? With all the tight breeding I can't help but ask how this size factored in to it all genetically. IDK, I'm certainly not a geneticist...I just play one on TV


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> I have always wondered why the OFRN "ran big". Can size be thought of in "trait" terms? I realize that what determines a bulldog's size involves many factors, but can size be "dominantly" or "recessively" thought of? With all the tight breeding I can't help but ask how this size factored in to it all genetically. IDK, I'm certainly not a geneticist...I just play one on TV


:rofl: hahaha.. thats funny.. .. to answer your question.. YES.. I just brought hamomnds/heinzl dog down to 30lbs by outcrossing to the right piece; because they both shared a snooty catalyst through spike ( a smaller dog) it was fused in to the hammonds side and was in Hoagie in 1/4 shot.

I've bred my own dogs seperate to get them big and small; I've bred whopper down to 35lbs with 50% whopper in the ped or genetic make up. I had to answer all those questions for myself. Just like any other trait bone density and size are inherited and part of the gentic code.

As far as Sadie and Greenwood; well Greenwood is who gave me my first round of education back in 2001, later Tants, then Davis and later Mr Hammonds, with old men of Hicks bred dogs and OFRN dogs inbetween. Heinzl is who I follow along with Colby; and have gotten into disagreements with Sadie because she doesnt adhere to the Heinzl format rather she adheres to the action guy only format. For work only the 4gen is what matters for family and breeding and locking in genetics you have to look at the full 7. There are 256 ancestors each with traits from 256 ancestors thats 20,000 + ancestors that ONE dog has DNA make up for. Thats genetic TRUTH you cant beat it. So as a breeder for a family of dogs there really is no better format or guideline other than by Heinzl or Colby. Heinzl used his own blood he handed down to tudors and he used Colby exclusively and he had some old lightener stock as well. Its interesting to think that Colby used Heinzl only as outcross rarely ever do you see colby with anything other than colby that he handed down except when crossed into heinzl bred dogs. Howard Heinzl was revered by all and even those action guys today who only focus on 4gen cannot deny honestly that Heinzl was the best dog breeder to be seen with the American Pit Bull Terrier. No one got it like him nor could produce em like him. All the dog men we look up to looked up to him or his dogs, everything is in the pedigrees as well as written history.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

IF adba consideres HEINZL a bloodline they would also consider BOUDREAUX a bloodline and CHAVIS as well.. I do not. HEINZL is basically colby they go hand and hand. BOUDREAUX and CHAVIS can be completely dominated by crossing into Colby or OFRN unlike Heinzl. Who has his name behind many if not most of the dogs today. 

Im not the ADBA nor am I greenwood.. I look at it in the eyes of genetic dominance and diverstiy. Heinzl had the most going as far as breeder goes but he used JP's dogs exclusively. He may have been a better breeder howver Colby still had great influence on his dogs complete genetic makeup. 

COLBY and OFRN are the two bloodlines of the APBT .. JMO everything falls under one or the other or both.. everything is dominated by one or the other. When bred tight redboy and jeep turn red on red, most of them buck dogs red on red.. Thats strong OFRN DNA being pushed to the surface asa dominant trait. Redboy bred right could be an outcross for OFRN as could Colby for that matter. Colby is the only bloodline that can be used as an outcross for all strains and substrains of the APBT. IF there are any pure Heinzl dogs left, they too can be used as a perfect outcross for any strain or substrain... Heinzl simply lacked the family to hand his work down to who also would understand and continue his work as he did. COLBY is a family bloodline since late 19th century, family continues JPs hard work... 

if you wanna be a breeder above the rest; follow Heinzl and Colby follow their peidgrees their words and pay attention to detail in your own stock, dont be in a hurry to sell keep em til 6months or so and make sure you dont have to cull. When inbreeding and tight linebreeding or direct outcross of two inbred strains; some dogs need to be culled, gonna have some goof ups for sure until you single out and cull all those genes and traits from your strain to begin forming a line. You have to cull ... those who don't are not honest to breeders ethics. Follow Heinzl you will not make a mistake unles you fumble the ball.


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

so due to my lack of pedigree history,which i have no problem admitting,IF you got your hands on a heinzl and put it into a colby dog what would be the outcome of the pups?- in your opinion.I understand you said heinzl is pretty much colby but got confused when you said the adba considered heinzl a bloodline. I apologize if this is getting redundant for you or if this is a stoopid ass question. but my knowledge about the breed comes from ownership(having had dozens) my grandfather and family. we have never been breeders per say of the science of the art- just good dogs to good dogs. also if you have time could you give me the exact names of some of the books you have mentioned? stratton etc i greatly appreciate your help firehazard,


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

This is the American Pit Bull Terrier
The American Pit Bull Terrier
The World of the American Pit Bull Terrier
The Truth about the American Pit Bull Terrier....all Richard Stratton, I like the second and third books mentioned best.
Dogs of Velvet and Steel...Bob Stevens
Fighting for Life...Frank Rocca
Colby's Book of the APBT
The Complete Gamedog...Ed Faron 
There are more of course.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> IF adba consideres HEINZL a bloodline they would also consider BOUDREAUX a bloodline and CHAVIS as well.. I do not. HEINZL is basically colby they go hand and hand. BOUDREAUX and CHAVIS can be completely dominated by crossing into Colby or OFRN unlike Heinzl. Who has his name behind many if not most of the dogs today.
> 
> Im not the ADBA nor am I greenwood.. I look at it in the eyes of genetic dominance and diverstiy. Heinzl had the most going as far as breeder goes but he used JP's dogs exclusively. He may have been a better breeder howver Colby still had great influence on his dogs complete genetic makeup.
> 
> ...


Lot of good breeders, some were in a league of their own. The Reverend Howard Heinzl fits the bill. I would throw in a few others, but that is where personal bias takes over LOL. You know I'm a Corvino fan


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Dogs like this:

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1799] :: *HEINZL'S ********
foundation of heinzl dogs today...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [54206] :: MBKS COLBY MAGNUM

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [10648] :: CEDARBROOKS MADELINE

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [28107] :: HEINZL'S CHIEF

... just an example of a pure colby dog... and a pure heinzl dog.. not much different really.. and the cross.. Tudors was given Dibo by Heinzl and Heinzl had some paddy blood outside of colby which is why it always clicked so well just like the previous Lightener Colby crosses and why Colby and Tudors crosses always clicked. Heinzl diffrent from colby in that aspect and didn't cull red noses from his program, and a couple of other minor details surrounding pedigree ( dna ) knowledge. Heinzl and Colby dogs have always clicked.. .. its the paddy dna they both harbor.. Colby is just the more pure (untainted) foundation strain to the rest of the dogs in America today. (rest meaning not all) Everything has paddy in it some way or another and there were dogs built on Paddy and strains.. None like colby that become a bloodline and foundation to a majority of the stock out there. Armitage, Clark, .. Fly of Panama.. all pure colby.. So even the corvino stock has ample colby dna in there.

Heinzl is considered a bloodline in the ADBA by way of the article you posted. Im OCD and soak in facts when Im reading like robotic anaylsis.. I read it again to break it down and take in each emotional and rational thought by each line puncuation, by puncuation.. . Then I read it a third time to really understand what I am already wise to and then it becomes knowing.*


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

ok thanks for your help bud. im looking forward to future conversations. yer an all right dog man. take care.and ty to saint francis for his input and the list of books:cheers:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> Lot of good breeders, some were in a league of their own. The Reverend Howard Heinzl fits the bill. I would throw in a few others, but that is where personal bias takes over LOL. You know I'm a Corvino fan


yup which was the source of Heinzls first stock .. then he went colby.. Im sure it was JPs quality of character in himself and his dogs. Heinzl didn't like action guys nore did he like most dogmen. He thought they were full of themselves and a lil to much for not knowing all that they thought they knew.. Corvino was in a league of his own as well.. producing a FAMILY of constant, strong, dna... that shows in all it touched. Not much corvino untouched today, most of it has been spliced with colby somehow weather through loposay or heinzl blood through morgan.. It is in a class of its own. Thus OFRN being bloodline of dogs and COLBY .. Corvino would contribute to the OFRN of course.

All dogs the best of breeders used a dog or dogs from those men and done the best they could. Boudreaux up to eli and eli II and bullyson are inbred linebred all down from corvino mainly. This is why anything from OFRN or COLBY throws dominant. Its the pre cursor.. the foundation blocks .. Just like paddy was for lightener, colby, feeley, heinzl, etc.. etc.. Thats what makes colby so special really. THEY ALL gathered paddy blood even the corvino HOWEVER COLBY is a complete sub strain, strain, and bloodline with more untainted paddy and irish % than any other strain. Paddy founded colby , paddy founded what colby didn't, colby purified paddy tightened it up and built a bloodline from it, as did others its just with colby you can follow it in cleanly back to the boat. Everyone else outcrossed alot.. COLBY and OFRN are the only two bloodlines JMO but you take any well bred tight line to any well bred honest colby dog or OFRN dog and well.. you'll see.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> This is the American Pit Bull Terrier
> The American Pit Bull Terrier
> The World of the American Pit Bull Terrier
> The Truth about the American Pit Bull Terrier....all Richard Stratton, I like the second and third books mentioned best.
> ...


this is a good lot to start with and get a STRONG common sense factor for understanding the dog. GREAT POST!


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

The Old Family Red Nose Strain did not need the Colby dogs to be where they are today.
And again, OFRN is NOT a bloodline. It is simply a STRAIN of the American (pit) Bull Terrier. 
The bloodlines within the OFRN strain are from the breeders or dogs they are based on.
Lou himself told me before he passed that his family had nothing to do with the OFRN dogs,
and his father never once spoke of them in his lifetime. 
Even more, if a red dog popped up, they culled it. They did not like the red dogs.
OFRN dogs also beat many Colby dogs in the []. This was when only the best were allowed life. They had to prove they deserved the title of ApBT!! 
They were a small strain, not overproduced by pocket breeders as today.

The dog game had been going on long before Colby came around. He was simply the first to make them public.
A lot of dogmen disliked him for that.

But one thing is true: the legendary game Colby dog is just that today: Legend. The past. Today they are more in par with the AST. Bred for show. 
The OFRN today have improved and continue to improve. Without the Colby dogs.

Now for the "Corvino" dogs, those with interest should keep their eyes open this year for a book.
"An Interview with Carmen Corvino." (Joe's Grandson). 
I recently had dinner with men who grew up with him. 
This book is to for once and for all separate the facts from the BS going around.
Bob Wallace himself considered Joe Corvino the greatest breeder of his generation. Over John P. Colby.
How many of you saw more matches than Bob Wallace did in his days?

This is not to diminish the accomplishments of Colby...
John was a great breeder, no denying that. But his family never preserved the same caliber of dogs their father and grandfather did. 
"History" cannot make a dog better, by a name.

As Joe Corvino said: "The test of a family is time."


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Goemon said:


> The Old Family Red Nose Strain did not need the Colby dogs to be where they are today.
> And again, OFRN is NOT a bloodline. It is simply a STRAIN of the American (pit) Bull Terrier.
> The bloodlines within the OFRN strain are from the breeders or dogs they are based on.
> Lou himself told me before he passed that his family had nothing to do with the OFRN dogs,
> ...


That would be me LOL!!! Wanted to see Corvino this summer, but as you know he couldn't make it to the show. Keep me posted on the book, I'm sure you will G! Good seeing you back on here


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline. So is COLBY and ALL OTHER dogs come from those dogs and can be highly altered by going back into those dogs or lock in traits, some over looked and lost.

If I did say need it was from pedigree research and being a breeder myself. .. the test of family is indeed time.. Whos still around besides COLBY in that purity? All action guys who take a chance and outcross with pure colby produce all aces and dimes: from mayfield -JRBBolioTmb and all the others done right. >> IM SAYING ALL THE OFRN PEOPLE are OVERLOOKING KEY elements that show they used heavy paddy and irish dogs .. which is almost exclusively what Colby used as well as the English Pilot dogs The paddy was dominant. The paddy is also where those old guys pulled in the Colby bred dogs because of their pedigree.. Follow a colby ped back is mostly paddy and kept in one family bred by JPs standards. Ol Bob Wallace is another one of those types that is a league above the rest.... Unlike colby they didn't have family to keep it in tact properly or gave up on it. Corvino may have said wallace was the greatest breeder of all time, well Hemphills broke jaw sire to Searcy Jeff was near pure colby on top even the lightener were colby dogs, and all colby on bottom. ..<<Lightener gets the credit for this dog and when you look at HEmphills Broke jaw you see its all Colby and what isnt is paddy stock. So again.. opinion of DID NOT NEED is moot, as we can see the building blocks clearly.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=1117


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1216] :: KING COTTON

built on Wallaces Searcy Jeff and had that Old lightner gyp in there with another 1/4 shot sired by Centipede who Colby paddy and paddy dogs to a shippley/corcorans gas house/paddy stock.. again they used the best of the paddy stock they could find if not through Tudors dogs it was Colby himself in a couple of Lighteners crosses and of course heinzl had a good batch of corvino dogs. .. the reason all those clicked with colby on the cross is because REALLY TECHNICALLY ..

Lloyds PADDY/Sweeneys GASHOUSE and Lloyds PILOT/GAS HOUSE are the FOUNDATION of almost every strain of dog rooted in the USA with the name APBT .. All the OFR go back to Paddy or other irish dogs right off the boat. Lightener had some old dogs that were around before all the irish dogs and no one knew where they came from .. HMMM NO ONE KNEW and everyone had irish dogs and paddy dogs and english dogs so to say that all his croanies would say NO ONE KNEW where he got his dogs, that says a lot in very few words. Lightener quit his dogs cause they were to big and so he went to the straight paddy dogs. Hmmm.. He had paddy blood all in the red dogs he had so why the jump ship? Because of that old blood he had infused with those dogs. The blood no one knew where it came from. Big bulldogues.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> ... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline. So is COLBY and ALL OTHER dogs come from those dogs and can be highly altered by going back into those dogs or lock in traits, some over looked and lost.
> 
> If I did say need it was from pedigree research and being a breeder myself. .. the test of family is indeed time.. Whos still around besides COLBY in that purity? All action guys who take a chance and outcross with pure colby produce all aces and dimes: from mayfield -JRBBolioTmb and all the others done right. >> IM SAYING ALL THE OFRN PEOPLE are OVERLOOKING KEY elements that show they used heavy paddy and irish dogs .. which is almost exclusively what Colby used as well as the English Pilot dogs The paddy was dominant. The paddy is also where those old guys pulled in the Colby bred dogs because of their pedigree.. Follow a colby ped back is mostly paddy and kept in one family bred by JPs standards. Ol Bob Wallace is another one of those types that is a league above the rest.... Unlike colby they didn't have family to keep it in tact properly or gave up on it. Corvino may have said wallace was the greatest breeder of all time, well Hemphills broke jaw sire to Searcy Jeff was near pure colby on top even the lightener were colby dogs, and all colby on bottom. ..<<Lightener gets the credit for this dog and when you look at HEmphills Broke jaw you see its all Colby and what isnt is paddy stock. So again.. opinion of DID NOT NEED is moot, as we can see the building blocks clearly.
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1117] :: HEMPHILL'S BROKE JAW


"Strike that, now reverse it" (Willy Wonka for ya)....Wallace said Corvino was the greatest breeder of the day, not the other way around. Sorry Stan, couldn't let that go LOL!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Hahaha.. Yeh,.. Got caught slippin.:rofl:


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> ... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline.


OFRN is a *STRAIN* of American (pit) Bull Terrier. There are *bloodlines* within the *strain.*
As a member of the Old Family Red Nose Registry, this is the first thing people need to learn when they come on board:
*OFRN IS NOT A BLOODLINE!!*


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Bloodline genetically speaking founded strains and substrains .. bloodline is breed of dog. Blood is the old world breeders term for DNA. There are many bloodlines (breeds) of dog. and Those breeds/bloodlines have various strains and substrains from it.


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

perfect definition for the word bloodline firehazard.this has turned out to be one of the best and informitive discussions ive had on this subject. and i think a few more people other than myself are learning something-lol:goodpost:


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

so my next question acording to the definition is (unless i misu nderstood) if ofrn and colby are both bloodlines(which is breed of dog) does that mean there are 2 different BREEDS of what is now called the apbt? so if i had 1 of these old time ofrn and a colby next to me are they both apbts? seriously confused and just not getting it.or are you saying that the ofrn and colby is now the" modern"apbt???????feel free not to answer if ya give up on me LOL. but how im understanding it that makes sense is that the apbt is the bloodline(breed) colby and ofrn are strains and all else are sub-strains????


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

While I always respect your knowledge/opinions Stan, I have to side with Goemon on the strain vs. bloodline discussion. It is what I have read and been told by a top OFRN authority/breeder. But hey, what would the world be like if everyone agreed?! LOL This whole thread has been food for thought for those with hungry minds, kudos


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> While I always respect your knowledge/opinions Stan, I have to side with Goemon on the strain vs. bloodline discussion. It is what I have read and been told by a top OFRN authority/breeder. But hey, what would the world be like if everyone agreed?! LOL This whole thread has been food for thought for those with hungry minds, kudos


:cheers: :goodpost: I certainly agree; and was founded in that school of thought. I kinda always keep my mind free and what I stumbled upon was misunderstanding or multiple understandings of the word "bloodline" itself from the beginning depending on region and culture. All Im saying is that IMO it is a reverse understanding of the word. In most all cases most still say strain by layman terms because of that inwhich I mentioned: use and understanding of the word. Really in biological speaking its: offspring, decendants, species.. and whats funny is that until late 90s into 2000 there was no real way to distinguish between species and all wolves and domestic dogs were under canis lupus. 


> "....Breeds of dogs can not be distinguished from each other by any known anatomical attribute or even biochemical genetic test, including DNA fingerprinting. Since a given breed of dog can not be defined by any scientific means currently known, our contention is that it is not possible to write any ordinance or law that would single them out for special treatment since they cannot be so defined in a legal sense. "Recently I attended a canine genetics workshop at Texas A & M University in which it was further emphasized that there is no biochemical genetic test that can even distinguish wolves from domestic dogs. "....I would taxonomically identify all wolves, wolf hybrids and domestic dogs as the species Canis lupus. Technically, the domestic dog and wolf hybrids should be designated as the sub-species "domesticus". I. Lehr Brisbin, Jr., Research Professor, Savannah River Ecology Laboratory, The University of Georgia. Letter, 30, Jan. 1990





> The DNA evidence, however, shows that they are all derived from the wolf. DNA from all dogs is over 99% identical to that of a wolf, while the wolf and coyote DNAs, for example, are over 4% different from each other. This means, surprisingly, that all of the diversity of dog types in the world today came from a single source, the wolfAbout the author. Steven Potter, PhD, is a Professor of Pediatrics, in the Division of Developmental Biology, at Children's Hospital Medical Center in Cincinnati. He has authored Designer Genes: A New Era in the Evolution of Man, published by Random House. He has also written over one hundred science papers and co-authored the third edition of the medical school textbook, Larsen's Human Embryology.
> Designer Genes: A New Era in the Evolution of Man: Steven Potter: 9781400069057: Amazon.com: Books


Which is why I got out of the wolf rescue type stuff back when I caught bulldog fever (01') while also vet tech at the SPCA. For two reasons: politics is bull and because I found through breeding and obtained bred wolfdogs and readings on the wolf that: there is no wolf hybrid that it is a wolfdog and that everything disappears back into the wolf. Even up here I seen a blue wolfdog from the result of a blue APBT X a wolfdog, the other look like spikey wire haired dogs. Because of that and my new understanding of Colby, Heinzl, and them other ace family breeders work; I know that just how everything disappears or is drastically altered by the wolf, it is the same with different bloodlines of dog and their strains and sub strains. Well Stratton says before getting into bulldogs or while a student of, one should study the wolf and its entirety. Thats my foot hold. Even though in general talk I'll know what people mean and wont disect the conversation for technicalities: however when asked what makes a bloodline 101 .. Had to disect it.. Thats why technically all the APBT are sub strains of Paddy , Gas House and or Pilot by way of strain back to the bloodline of the dog under the canis lupis. So in all of this I just proved myself wrong  and to a new understanding altogether. :stupid: Hahaha. Maybe in the aspect of APBT, AST, SBT, ABD, BT, AB and other bulldog and bandogs only .. then we could use my theory because everything is trumped by COLBY or OFRN: otherwise my last paragraph and understanding of wolf genes and canine genetics backed by scientific biological truth, trumped both our theories.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

WOLF
DOG<Fighting dog of Gaul-Alaunt was result of bred stock imported to England from France} species
bulldog < bloodline
terrier<now a bloodline, fighting terrier strain of bulldog per ibid "first terriers registered in England in 1850s was from inbreeding pit bulldogs" also from: Full text of "The new book of the dog : a comprehensive natural history of British dogs and their foreign relatives, with chapters on law, breeding, kennel management, and veterinary treatment" the roughest of terriers came from the fighting bulldogs that came in all sizes depicted in Normandy conquests and other art up to 19th century. They just made the best lil fighter breeding dogs family pedigree tighter and tighter. Terrier means tenacity an old word used once like we use the term game or fastlane. 
APBT< 50/50% Bulldog and Terrier: strain
All the dogs out there under Paddy, Gas House and Pilot...: sub strains .. 
family are the inbred linebred dogs from those sub strains.

When saying family; people think of blood, in doing so they confuse the term with bloodline and there it is.

Since they can all disappear into Colby or OFRN and all dogs can disappear into the wolf well.. .. we all have a world to learn.


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

So it took awhile but the think tank managed to do it . This is how it is. Canine lupus is the bloodline------- our breed as great as it is ----is a strain..... And all your little favorite famous ass dogs whom you deemed fit enough to be bloodlines are actually considered "sub-strains"... Hey welcome to bloodlines 101.so reiterated... Your dog is a sub-strain of wolf.....


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Fair enough Stan. Obviously anything can be debated when put under a scrutiny, especially in the game of wordplay. We may have not untied the knot in this discussion, we may have even created another knot, but at least we know where eachother is coming from. I will end by saying the wolf is badass. Not sure how it would do in the [] LOL, but then again I think the APBT would have a helluva time in the wild


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

saint franciS- you are my DUDE!!! i would've thrown jeep in there n at least we had 1 hell of a contender letEM roll n not because i love them---bUT BECAUSE 


THEY THEY LOVE ME.THAT DICUSSION WAS EFFN AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

JMAN2013 said:


> saint franciS- you are my DUDE!!! i would've thrown jeep in there n at least we had 1 hell of a contender letEM roll n not because i love them---bUT BECAUSE
> 
> THEY THEY LOVE ME.THAT DICUSSION WAS EFFN AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers:


Every once in awhile a good discussion finds us, with some debate of course LOL. Usually I just stay out of the way and let the chiefs hash it out...I'm just a low Indian on the totem pole of knowledge in some areas, but I figure it is far better to be long on ears and short on mouth when trying to learn something.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

What section was this thread started in? "Bloodline Discussion." Anyone with half a brain knows the ApBT has a number of "bloodlines."
Why else would every Tom, Dick, and Harry be asking for the "Carver dogs, Mayfield dogs, Garner dogs, ect.?" 
They read a story or two and want one of the dogs from the said dog, hence, same bloodline that carries the blood of said dog/breeder.

But I'll keep it simple. You can take all the scientists, pedigree pushers, etc, in the world, with all their fancy titles. 
Then give them whatever dogs they want to breed. 
They will never produce true bulldogs, better bulldogs than what they started with.
Maurice Carver (too bad those who praise him never learned from his words!!) said it best:
*I advertise winners and the whole world buys my dogs because I sell bulldogs. Every other dogman in the world advertises pedigrees! 
You see, they need proof their dogs are good...BUT THAT's NOT PROOF!!!"*


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> Every once in awhile a good discussion finds us, with some debate of course LOL. Usually I just stay out of the way and let the chiefs hash it out...I'm just a low Indian on the totem pole of knowledge in some areas, but I figure it is far better to be long on ears and short on mouth when trying to learn something.


Once upon a time a young man from Austria named Adolf Hitler wrote a book...
Well, a stupified German nation believed him. The rest is history, and they are still discovering things today left behind by those hell bound German Nazis.

Point: whose knowledge would you choose? Men who lived it with bulldogs, and produced proven winners?
Or those who talk it but never walked it, who preach pedigrees but have no winners!?

The choice is easy, and the highest way is the simplest! :hammer:


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Goemon said:


> Once upon a time a young man from Austria named Adolf Hitler wrote a book...
> Well, a stupified German nation believed him. The rest is history, and they are still discovering things today left behind by those hell bound German Nazis.
> 
> Point: whose knowledge would you choose? Men who lived it with bulldogs, and produced proven winners?
> ...


True. What can't be found in books, actual authenticated history I'm talking about, must be found at the source...so opinion can be separated from fact. Ahh Hitler, he was a very, very bad man. Hitler was a messiah for a broken down people, and a monster for the rest. He was a dictator plain and simple...a mad genius. His reign of terror will forever serve as a reminder of how disgusting mankind can become.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Well for all of those I just checked refferences yesterday and everytime Colby and Corvino lines met in the [] 4 of 5 it was the Colby that won. As far as bloodlines I know what your saying, I lived by that understanding and if you didn't read or can't tell I pretty much adhere right in along with Heinzl and Colby in their thought on bulldogs and pedigrees. Considering there are none in their class today and very few yesterday ; then that is what it is.

What makes a bloodline > well BLOODLINE is a made up word some breeders associate it with a family some associate it with breed and some associate it with strain.

.... All DOGS and WOLVES are identical under Canis Lupis according to DNA records... 
_Wolves_ are the SPECIES
_Dog_ is the SUB SPECIES as there are MANY different from the wolf. 
_bulldogs_ would be STRAIN <<< Bloodline of dog??? in origin and in working question.
_families_ would be SUB STRAINS <<Bloodline of dog as in family bloodline?? .. Paddy, Gas House, Pilot << COLBY .. OFRN.(corvino,clouse etc because its the tightest and purest of the Paddy, Gas House, Pilot DNA)

Thats my point, maybe we should follow Heinzl, and COLBY in their way of breeding a dog. I quit following Corvino however I understand I was an OFRN fanatic at one point. When it comes to genetics the only thing that prooves scientific biology wrong is "God".

Bloodline is a slang term .. It has been said: "what bloodline of dog?" more often than "what bloodline of GSD, APBT, AST, KBD," etc.. etc... because that is how it originated.. We didnt create English we just created our own rules to it as we went along. American English. LOL Bloodline would be sub species or sub strain.. However it can be associated with family bloodline.. So is the family the breeder or the dogs DNA herritage itself? I thought both, such as with COLBY, HEINZL, CORVINO, etc.. you know? What we really mean are strains OR sub strains. Bloodline is just more flavorable for story telling.


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

ok geoman have i made my point to you yet?????? a bloodline has been misconstrued to to point that a blood line can mean whatever the f*** you want it to mean. i made my point and do not care if you have more years in tHis than me (26) so the next TIME you go correcting someone about what a bloodline is just remember that today it means whatever STRAIN of dog you are talking about aND you can thank the rest of the apbt community for SCREWING UP THE WHOLE DEFINITION OF WHAT A BLOODLINE IS)my point IS THIS ACCORDING TO THE ABDA -YOUR LIL PUP IS NOT A BLOODLINE -it is a strain of canine lupus. family of mammilia genus of vertebrae. keep yer opinions to yourself .or correct someone trying to get a 12wk old pup to pull. signed-not a fan.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

JMAN2013 said:


> ok geoman have i made my point to you yet?????? a bloodline has been misconstrued to to point that a blood line can mean whatever the f*** you want it to mean. i made my point and do not care if you have more years in tHis than me (26) so the next TIME you go correcting someone about what a bloodline is just remember that today it means whatever STRAIN of dog you are talking about aND you can thank the rest of the apbt community for SCREWING UP THE WHOLE DEFINITION OF WHAT A BLOODLINE IS)my point IS THIS ACCORDING TO THE ABDA -YOUR LIL PUP IS NOT A BLOODLINE -it is a strain of canine lupus. family of mammilia genus of vertebrae. keep yer opinions to yourself .or correct someone trying to get a 12wk old pup to pull. signed-not a fan.


Ya know, I have spoken with respect up to this point, and now you wanna be a total punk about it all? Figures.
Now go cry like the baby from the Pepsi Generation you are.:curse:
But you tell me what to do? Bitch I'll put you in place fast.

*Signed: the hand that slapped you!*

Firehazard: My whole point is this. Modern times may change, but basics never do.
The best dogs ever to cross lines weren't built by all that mumbo jumbo BS.
They were built and maintained at a price, through experience. Through loss.
Most the modern theories I have heard all sound good, but guess what?
They are no help to beginners, and are not maintained or carried by experience.
If you spoke that way to John P. Colby, he'd laugh at you.
He bred BEST to BEST. Each dog was judged individually. Each movement, habit, instinct. 
Just too bad the old days are over. I'd put my money on the old timers.
Their ways are tried and true.
So it best to keep it simple. Science has no eyes in the []. 
For that is where the bulldogs I speak of were born. 
And if one isn't improving what they have, they have no business breeding lesser quality.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I've read both Colby books more than once, along with others and have Colby breeders I've spoken with; Im sure he'd laugh alright.. Chuckle and give me good paddy dog! By the way he talked and Mr. Lou Colby talked, let alone the book by his uncle ... and by looking at that mumbo jumbo pedigrees, then you'll see it was highly prized on paddy. JP kept the best records known well for keeping acurate genuine records. He like keeping records and bred the best dogs til Heinzl come around and well Corvino is a great one however all the times Colby and Corvino blood [] it out it was the Colby the victor.. BOTH are based on Paddy premdominately. THE [] IS THE CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT  thats scientific breeding at its finest. Proving game.. and only breeding and using proven game.

begging the question what makes a bloodline?

Depending on who you are its simple: Strain or Sub Strain .. of the sub species: bulldog down from the wolf species or Canis Lupis.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> *all the times Colby and Corvino blood [] it out it was the Colby the victor.*. BOTH are based on Paddy .


:rofl::rofl::rofl:
I'm willing to bet you a large sum on that one!!!! LOL:thumbsup:
Even Colby had curs....that quit cold turkey. That refused to scratch.

But what I liked about Corvino is this: If he ever lost he would buy the dog that beat his.
That's how it should be. Like all of us, if we don't believe we have the best, what are we feeding them for?

About pedigrees, my point there is when we speak of dogs from long ago, we speak at a time when pedigrees were hung.
What mattered most? The pedigree or the performance of the dog in the []?
It was the latter of the two. That is what Carver meant when he said every other dogman advertised pedigrees. 
Prime example: Red Boy is well known, but he was paper hung.
Didn't matter. He performed and he produced.
Look at Red Boy/Jocko. It was Red Boy that made that line good, not Jocko.
Straight Jocko produced curs. Just like Mayday, produced curs.

Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it will perform well, or produce well.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Now, what's the simple definition of a bloodline?
Okay, here's an example.

Let us each take litters of dogs all down from the same grandparents.
We continue to breed them.
When our own individual names are on the dogs both on top and bottom, from pup to great grandparents,
then although we have dogs from the same stock, we now have our own bloodlines.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Nice red tape .. the books and the marks in history show nothing beat them corvino and lightener dogs but .. .. Colby.. I'm well versed in curs used a few good hunters, and if redboy was rung it was probably something near it because he bred Colby style dogs often with red noses, thus the OFRN strain in there. Maybe he was corvino with a sliver of Colby =) 

Bloodine means strain however its modern use of the term it does mean sub-strain in most minds. Colby and OFRN.. ALL bulldogs today come from these. Thus sub strains..


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

arguing over agreeing about the same shit


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## JMAN2013 (Jan 2, 2013)

so dbag back to my original question tough guy. does any one know of any turtlebuster blood arund NORTHEAST ohio?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

zohawn said:


> arguing over agreeing about the same shit


ain't so .. LOL. Doh!


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## bradbenjamin1984 (8 mo ago)

JMAN2013 said:


> According to the adba the pitbull world is a little mixed up on what is actually a bloodline. Now the general rule is no single dog can create a bloodline. this is because simply put no dog can be bred back to itself. this means that any offsprings dna is not 100% the same as the dog given credit for the bloodline.if it was it would be a clone hence cloning. SO we as lovers of great dogs love to immortalize them by stamping a bloodline with their names.take honeybunch for instance. every time they bred this bitch she threw game dogs.they couldnt breed her wrong. she threw jeep. who according to the adba and "nature" isnt even a bloodline.thats right jeep isnt a bloodline friends-hes 25%carver,25%boudreaux,50% loposay cross.my argument is this-the pitbull world should focus on giving credit to the breeder/breeders who have spent thier lives raising breeding and creating these fine dogs than any one single dog.thats my 2cents. ive got 98 more cents left. anybody reading this?check out www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=39


How many dogs to make a bloodline . I was always under impression that 7 generations of line breeding made it your bloodline?


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