# Razors Edge, Representatives of The Foundation



## Indigo Bully Connection

- x-pert rowdy rascal









x-pert brindle biff CH










x-pert black ace II










UCD Herring's Bullet









HERE'S AN OLDY EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW!

TUDOR'S BLACK JACK










Sky King of Harwyn CH









Ruffian Skybolt of Har-wyn CH










LLYOD'S DAPPY GIRL










This dog dates back to 86

KING BEAR OF LOU-LIN


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## Indigo Bully Connection

- I have a bazillion "Old School" photos, but here are a few behind the RE line

WCWP TYARR'S Diamondback RedBlt 








GR CH Gaff's California Top Gun










GR CH. Knowlwoods Ca. Kellsey










GR CH Kinders Wizard Gator


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## MY MIKADO

All are great looking dogs but i really like the looks of WCWP TYARR'S Diamondback RedBlt. That is an awsome looking dog.


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## Sadie

Thanks for posting those Shana


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## Indigo Bully Connection

- I think my favorite, based off of looks only because i haven't been hands on with these dogs is King Bear of Lou- lin, to me he represents everything I love about the dogs


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## dixieland

Nice post Shana!I love me some old skool RE dogs.


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## pitbullmamanatl

Excellent post, Shana! Love the pics!


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## angelbaby

Love this post , some very nice looking dogs . I Love the look of the old RE dogs.


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## CaLi 2 B.C.

Thanks for sharing.. Im goin 100% RE from now on.Still the most "correct" bullys IMO to this day.


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## American_Pit13

It great to see where lines came from and see where they are today. I would like to point out that these ARE NOT RE dogs.

These dogs like Shana said where dogs that where foundation for the line and in the back generations. 

Even the first generation of RE dogs where not RE bred. They just had the RE name put on them as Daves start in the line, but was not a bloodline itself at the time.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

-


American_Pit13 said:


> It great to see where lines came from and see where they are today. I would like to point out that these ARE NOT RE dogs.
> 
> These dogs like Shana said where dogs that where foundation for the line and in the back generations.
> 
> Even the first generation of RE dogs where not RE bred. They just had the RE name put on them as Daves start in the line, but was not a bloodline itself at the time.


You're right to emphasize on that point. This is where the dogs began, and it's really interesting how far they have come to date.


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## Sadie

American_Pit13 said:


> It great to see where lines came from and see where they are today. I would like to point out that these ARE NOT RE dogs.
> 
> These dogs like Shana said where dogs that where foundation for the line and in the back generations.
> 
> Even the first generation of RE dogs where not RE bred. They just had the RE name put on them as Daves start in the line, but was not a bloodline itself at the time.


Do you have pics Holly of some of the RE dogs after a few established generations of breedings? Like maybe 4 generations down the line?


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## dixieland

Well they are what started the line,so wouldn't then the first dogs starting out be almost like these dogs?Basically with very few differences?


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## Sadie

After a few generations of breeding for a type things change drastically it doesn't take very long to establish a certain look in the line I say about 4 generations you have a pretty solid ground/direction/blueprint and you build from there.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

gopitbull.com


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## Sadie

Nice thanks Shana


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## Sadie

I wanted to add you can see a pretty big shift after the fourth generation the dogs seemed to have gotten heavier you can see the direction he was trying to truly go as for type if you look at the dogs in each generation. They started off as Amstaff's and shifted into a bully type dog.


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## CaLi 2 B.C.

heres one not on that ped from same era a distant relative of my luna razors edge eds call-him lil man (love this dog)


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## American_Pit13

dixieland said:


> Well they are what started the line,so wouldn't then the first dogs starting out be almost like these dogs?Basically with very few differences?


My dogs started out as heavy Nevada/Larum as well as Gotti/RE but over as few as 3 generations are not the same dogs. They where taken in the RE direction and then brought back to the Nevada/Larum direction when I bred. It all depends on what a breeder is doing with a line.



Sadie said:


> Do you have pics Holly of some of the RE dogs after a few established generations of breedings? Like maybe 4 generations down the line?


These dogs are from the first couple generations of RE labeled dogs. However I don't know of anything that is solid RE in several gens that is not American Bully in type.

Razors Edge Silver Sadey Of ML 1st Generation RE dog from Non RE parents









GRCH Razors Edge Throwin Knuckles









Razors Edge Sadeys Paddington









First couple Gens of RE
Razors Edge Rayna









CH Razors Edge Purple Rose of Cairo 3rd Gen of RE on one side of his ped.









These dogs are the first RE dogs, but the dogs Shana posted are where it started and a good view of where it went.

Taking Gaff blood and other Amstaff lines they quickly achieved size (without crossing IMO) however you can see in one generation of now a days RE where you go from standard dogs to extreme dogs and see for your self something is not right.


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## Sadie

So is throwin knuckles RE as well I think it is right?


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## CaLi 2 B.C.

heres knuckles littermate razors edge inna rage


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## dixieland

American_Pit13 said:


> It great to see where lines came from and see where they are today. I would like to point out that these ARE NOT RE dogs.
> 
> These dogs like Shana said where dogs that where foundation for the line and in the back generations.
> 
> Even the first generation of RE dogs where not RE bred. They just had the RE name put on them as Daves start in the line, but was not a bloodline itself at the time.


This has nothing to do with the conversation now,I just wanted to add that when I started my question out it was after this statement that Holly had.But then I got side tracked with one of my kids.
Of course a line will develop and go in other directions as it's being drawn out in other directions


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## American_Pit13

Sadie said:


> So is throwin knuckles RE as well I think it is right?


Knuckles in RE by name but is not a RE bred dog. He is an Amstaff that had the RE name put on and is out of non RE parents.

Knuckles is Kimmar's Catt Man Roo X Pam's Whitepath China


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## American_Pit13

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Viewing Pedigree Details for WCBP/Bowowow's Loki of BIP - Bully Breed Resource
> 
> I haven't finished this yet, but here's an idea of what the dogs looked like... five generations in after "razors edge" names started showing up on a ped.


 Very good example of a dog kept clean looking with the RE blood and you can see the style without being over done or a complete change in type.


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## pitbullmamanatl

Tuffie of Detroit 1936









Ruffian Dreadnaught









Gallant's Ruff 1949 who sired









Jollycamp's Blueguard 1950









White Rock's Jet Bomber 1974


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## pitbullmamanatl

Delihant's Paddy (5xw) 1900









Swineford's King Paddy 1909









X-Pert Black Lady 1935









X-Pert Blossom Queen 1947









Lylan Cheyenne Lancer 1961









Stafford's Saben's Rose 1973









CH Patton's Wizard Pagan Daniel









Flying A's Oreo


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## pitbullmamanatl

Humes Texas Jack








 
Edward's Pancho Villa 1936








 
AKC CH Topstaff's Tony the Tiger








 
Nugent's Sticky of Our Gang








 
WillynWood Ronin 1972








 
Our Gang's Black Jet 1979








 
Sindelar's Heide Ho 1979


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## pitbullmamanatl

Charlie Lloyd's Pilot (UK 1878)







x Charlie Lloyd's Paddy







produced 

Mitchell's Paddy who produced Jack White's Teddy (2xw 1891) who produced Colby's Pincher (24xw 1896)










who produced Colby's Bunch who produced Colby's Tony who produced Moore's Major Colby who produced Winde's Pat Colby who produced X-Pert Black Lady







(1935)

who produced who produced X-Pert Black Ace








who produced Black Ace II who produced Xpert Brindle Biff







(1946) 

who produced Xpert Gallant Lady








 who produced Xpert Rowdy Rascal








who produced Sky King of Harwyn








who produced Ruffian Skybolt of Harwyn








who produced Ruffian Red Rock of Harwyn








who produced Rowdytown Patton's Red Rock Nefertiti who produced who produced White Path's Painted Rock







who produced Pam's White Path China Black who produced RE Throwin Knuckles








who produced RE Nevils Buckshot








 who produced Short Shot








 who produced Manu








who produced Diego's Doing Big Things








 who produced Pratt's Lil King Kamali


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## Rudy4747

It boggles me as to how Knuckles and Red Lade produced Buckshot?


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## 9361

i love the old pics, great looking dogs


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## pitbullmamanatl

Rudy4747 said:


> It boggles me as to how Knuckles and Red Lade produced Buckshot?


Why does it boggle you?


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## performanceknls

I have to agree, look at the the dogs in the past and you do not see them as bully till that breeding. The dogs of the ped look more AST than bully. So is this the beginning of paper hanging? I cannot believe that breeding honestly produced buckshot..... Very interesting to see the dogs that made up the ped.


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## pitbullmamanatl

Ah, picture makes him look super huge.


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## performanceknls

ok but look at how short the legs got in one breeding and how round the head got. I am all for the bullies so I am not trying to argue  but I do not see how that is possible and why you see so many get skeptical on the true history of the breed. I mean you lost like 4" of height in just 2-3 generations. I am just happy they have the ABKC so they can now breed to the standard and now we are seeing some really nice bullies.


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## Lopezsoulmates

wow my pup is related to throwin knuckles totally awesome


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## BullyTheKid

*Buck was not that short, at all actually, I will call Joey Nevils, but I was just with him in Vegas in Jan, and I am almost certain J said he was 19 inches at minimum.

I remember the RE motto of the late 90s "A head and chest above the rest". This is the main thing I look at down the line of ancestors, I noticed a more pronounced stop in RE dogs, especially from the early early photos. The reason I focus on this is because that is what the RE founder bred for. When you focus on certain traits and features there will be a sharp shift. The ancestors of course will look different as the dogs chosen were not bred for these specific traits.

When this happens, first pick pups and dogs selected for breeding will change drasticaly and the dogs will look different. You can see changes in other breeds as well when people breed for specific traits.

Not to name them all, but look at Rotts as breeders began to breed for size, yes the size is different, but so is back length, shoulder assembly, head shape, and rear angles. Only thing that remained the same was color lol.

Another example is found in Labs, once long legged and athletic, certain breeders began breeding for, you guessed it... Head, chest, and bone and in some cases labs challenge American Bullies in these regards. The length of leg has also been shortened and a lot of labs are now short in the shoulder. Nothing mixed in, just breeding for specific traits and I hate to say it, but not breeding for the overall dog and the most important quality in the structure of the APBT, balance.

So the change in structure and appearance is not shocking, but I like to study other breeds as well. It's really interesting. Not to say hanging didn't occur, but I wouldn't target that particular breeding.

One of the things people don't look at is Bucks littermates, and also what sire and dam have produced in other breedings. The first pic of Buck showcases traits that would appeal to Bully owners but in all honesty Buck was a Large AmStaff shaped dog with a huge head . He was a big dog though, but then again Knuckles was over 70 pounds himself.

If you want to see the RE blood taken in a more balanced direction check out Untouchable Blue Diamond kennels based out of Virginia right up the road from the Razors Edge home. .*


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## Sadie

performanceknls said:


> I have to agree, look at the the dogs in the past and you do not see them as bully till that breeding. The dogs of the ped look more AST than bully. So is this the beginning of paper hanging? I cannot believe that breeding honestly produced buckshot..... Very interesting to see the dogs that made up the ped.


:goodpost:I wanted to say it when I saw it but since you mentioned it I am going to have to agree I am not buying it there is not that much genetics in the world. From throwing knuckles on down is where I start to see a completely different breed more specifically mixing of other breeds.

The massive heads, droopy lips, short muzzles, massive chests ....this is where it becomes more apparent that something else was mixed in other than AST and APBT and unless any of you were there to witness these foundation breedings or I see some ties between these dogs I am not changing my mind. I have actually never seen it laid out like this because I have never bothered to look into it.

But since you put this up it makes it much easier to evaluate the drastic changes. Just my opinion of course but I can clearly see it. I am also going to say that we all talk about the wonder's of genetics but you can't possibly expect genetics to produce something that was never there to begin with without mixing another type of breed to produce such drastic results. This is just my opinion and what I have learned about genetics...

I can look at bogarts pedigree and go generations back and the family of dogs resemble consistency generation after generation there are freaks of genetics of course but even still those freaks don't resemble an entirely different breed in this case let's talk about Mayday being a freak of genetics but even still he didn't produce all freaks and he still looked like an APBT with more size to him and if you study his offspring they are not all 75-lbs either more like 50-65lbs they actually got smaller but still structure was maintained amongst other things.

Although I don't agree with what I am seeing in the diagram as being chalked up to only genetics this is a good thread for those who want to be able to see the foundation laid out for them....You won't get everyone to agree with you about this it's just how it goes and like I said without being a witness to these breedings whose to say either way when it becomes more evident that some mixing and paper hanging was going on.

It happens in all breeds. There were other breeds used to create the APBT many years ago and the American Bully is no exception. As Lisa stated I am glad the ABKC is now in place for this breed so that these dogs can be bred to a standard it will make all the difference in the world years to come.

IMO A breeding is only as good as the man behind it ethics play a big part in that and I don't know the founder's of these dog's personally I only know what I have read and was was written by the founders themselves... I am not saying all American Bullies are mixed(I will refrain from going there) but based on what I am looking at with this particular example which is supposed to be a foundation breeding example of what led up to the American Bully concept or ideal of the breed to come I can clearly see other breeds mixed in with the last few dogs and do not believe those last few dogs were a result of those staff breedings only.

One however can only speculate based on what we know the APBT and Amstaff should look like without being present for the breeding itself we will never be able to say for sure but for those of us who have studied both breeds or genetics in general and do in fact have years of exp breeding it's not hard to see why this becomes very questionable IMHO. I honestly don't see how it can be denied but that is just my take on it wether you agree or not we all are entitled to our opinions and I have done my best to be as respectful as possible when giving my opinion this thread.


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## DueceAddicTed

Sadie said:


> :goodpost:I wanted to say it when I saw it but since you mentioned it I am going to have to agree I am not buying it there is not that much genetics in the world. From throwing knuckles on down is where I start to see a completely different breed more specifically mixing of other breeds.
> 
> The massive heads, droopy lips, short muzzles, massive chests ....this is where it becomes more apparent that something else was mixed in other than AST and APBT and *unless any of you were there to witness these foundation breedings or I see some ties between these dogs I am not changing my mind. *I have actually never seen it laid out like this because I have never bothered to look into it.
> 
> But since you put this up it makes it much easier to evaluate the drastic changes. Just my opinion of course but I can clearly see it. I am also going to say that we all talk about the wonder's of genetics but you can't possibly expect genetics to produce something that was never there to begin with without mixing another type of breed to produce such drastic results. This is just my opinion and what I have learned about genetics...
> 
> I can look at bogarts pedigree and go generations back and the family of dogs resemble consistency generation after generation there are freaks of genetics of course but even still those freaks don't resemble an entirely different breed in this case let's talk about Mayday being a freak of genetics but even still he didn't produce all freaks and he still looked like an APBT with more size to him and if you study his offspring they are not all 75-lbs either more like 50-65lbs they actually got smaller but still structure was maintained amongst other things.
> 
> Although I don't agree with what I am seeing in the diagram as being chalked up to only genetics this is a good thread for those who want to be able to see the foundation laid out for them....*You won't get everyone to agree with you about this it's just how it goes and like I said without being a witness to these breedings whose to say either way* *when it becomes more evident that some mixing and paper hanging was going on. It happens in all breeds. There were other breeds used to create the APBT many years ago and the American Bully is no exception*. As Lisa stated I am glad the ABKC is now in place for this breed so that these dogs can be bred to a standard it will make all the difference in the world years to come.


This thread is definitely about the Foundation of the breed. Whether or not there was mixing at some point NO one has ever denied that. What those who have HANDS on knowledge, touched these current dogs, studied their peds, parents so forth are defending are the ones they know have not been mixed. Not to mention the constant mention of it is ridiculous considering its already been admitted at some point there are some breeders who have mixed something in, and this happens with ANY breed.
Tara key words in your post unless anyone was there to witness said breedings NO one not even people who say they see it in the dog can say for sure, you can't have it both ways. 
Let's not get back to this back and forth on the same topic its already apparent and proven no one is going to change their mind and its already been voiced to heated debate. I do not want to see a repeat of it in this thread.

Edit: If I'm not mistaken genetics are tricky in humans as well.


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## Firehazard

Great pics.. !!! Im a fan of old school style dogs here too..


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## Firehazard

I love these topics.. of course someone hung some papers but if we point out who then a whole line of dogs gets blackwalled like the whopper in ADBA stock.

heres Throwin Knuckles ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [2284] :: RAZORS EDGE THROWIN KNUCKLES (UKC)

the paddy dogs are what colby has signature of, the first dogs to hit the use were what we call staffordshire bull terriers today.. so many politics; colby dogs started AST, APBT, AMBD, BT and countless others throughout the south.

black ace II ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [15300] :: X-PERT BLACK ACE II


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## Sadie

Ronnie I am simply stating based on what I know and see I personally don't believe that those last few dog's are a result of genetics between staff x apbt breedings only. But I wasn't there to witness the breeding therefore it's only my opinion as I stated many times... and unless someone can show me some ties between these dogs in particular, I am not going to believe otherwise. I am not speaking of mixing of this breed in general I was being very specific to this particular example shown. I can see other breeds in those last few dogs very drastic changes as Lisa pointed out. This doesn't have to be an all out ugly debate if people could just learn to accept that not everyone is going to have the same opinions. I have been as respectful as one can possibly be here and I am not trying to argue just pointing out what I see as this was a very interesting example to look at.


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## DueceAddicTed

Gosh I love that dog ........


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## Firehazard

IMO some dogs were rung.. I've spent to many years in genetics and scientific breeding practices, I know the limits of genetic manipulation and it comes with heavy inbreeding and then using a distant outcross.. find a recesive made dominant and purify that trait.. thus strains, lines, and breeds.. 

You cannot get solid consistant manipulation like that by scatterbreeding dogs, something was rung and I bet through the peds and pics any one of us who know anything about dogs can find the mole. Its not ugly, its just like the whopper situaiton.. just like it..


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## BullyTheKid

....I.... Nevermind... Have to go play with the dogs... I'm tired of typing...great thread!!


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## pitbullmamanatl

BullyTheKid said:


> ....I.... Nevermind... Have to go play with the dogs... I'm tired of typing...great thread!!


Word! Tell Prophecy I lubs hims and I will be dognapping him on Saturday


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## Firehazard

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [125913] :: CH. RAZORS EDGE PURPLE ROSE OF CAIRO

VS

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [321334] :: JOY'S MISS DOLLY

The 2nd dog is a working dog in montanna .. you can find her at AGAINST THE WIND KENNELS - Montana based breeder of performance Pit Bulls

Im sorry but when I see dogs like this consistantly off of throwing knuckles well; its hard not to call the others "hippos" Because I LIKE THIS DOG.. So I like RE bred dogs when bred right  SEE.. 38lbs and UWPCH with RE name and being bred for what they are bred for with a name and papers saying APBT; they work. I SAY THIS cause from the history of the pics you can clearly see those who were bred for work and those who were bred for cosmetics first.

I dont know how it will evolve but knowing how it started and knowing that game bred apbts went in as AKC ASTs LOL and created the first gen of stock for RE; however they just gathered dogs so there is alot of scatterbred stuff going on and other than the hard work of Dave well others found this or that so there is so much diversity because IMO improper breeding practices; gotta cull sometimes even adults.

SO I like the RE dogs when I see lil working dogs from inwhich they all started. IF they all were uniform like this Hoorah; but RE without the Gotti and before the Greyline are decent enough but you can see clearly in the peds and pics that well a couple of dogs got rung.

Tudor did it with a bull terrier; Eddington did it with a Dogue de Bordeaux(extinct strain) and Carver did it to confuse people so they wouldnt know his breeding practices as well as those Swinford dogs he helped with; ... Bandogs all of em ... Bulldogs by any other name and when proven or from proven lines the American Pit Bull Terrier; So Im not being facist or bias to a breed; rather a cause and that is work... work built everything that is good in the RE line.. You cant breed a good worker by breeding for looks; you breed for work and take the best looking dog to show off..... RE has some of the best AKC stock washed to  but so does my favorite strain of all OFRN; havent found the one I want yet.

Sorry, but thats what happens; thats how the change was made in the genetic makeup of the dogs; scatterbred practices with no culling, breeding a performance line for show; and adding a rung dog or two. I know oklahoma bulldogs and I definitely know whopper http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=37122 ... Hmmm >>> http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=14949 but the online bullyped shows performance amstaffs.. LOL I was surounded by this stuff back when in Oklahoma; Alot of whopper dogs got rung by other dogs papers; and alot of game dogs out of kilkenny or papers from got rung on other "game dogs" .. man.. I gotta go my ears are ringing..


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## Mach0

Well whatever they consist of- they are here. With the abkc closing it's books and hopefully with some ethical breeding program, they will have cOnsistency and stop the confusion and debates once and for all.


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## Firehazard

Mach0 said:


> Well whatever they consist of- they are here. With the abkc closing it's books and hopefully with some ethical breeding program, they will have cOnsistency and stop the confusion and debates once and for all.


:goodpost: best I've heard yet......

Yeah I've been looking at the online bully peds.. Gonna take a while as most go right to the performance AST so those snipey working type dogs are going to keep poping up.. much like the issue with scott and johnson with the AMBD.

Im with you; just highlighting some of the drastic changes in the line in one generation.. and how working a dog and breeding a working dog changes the entire dog.


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## performanceknls

This is a great thread and I think it shows where some mixing started. I love the bully that is showing in ABKC now I think they finally have good consistency. I can't wait to have one in my kennel I really like the looks of some of these dogs and I want to do Obed and Rally with them. Any dog with food drive can do obed so I am looking forward to getting one and putting titles on them!


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## Mach0

Firehazard said:


> :goodpost: best I've heard yet......
> 
> Yeah I've been looking at the online bully peds.. Gonna take a while as most go right to the performance AST so those snipey working type dogs are going to keep poping up.. much like the issue with scott and johnson with the AMBD.
> 
> Im with you; just highlighting some of the drastic changes in the line in one generation.. and how working a dog and breeding a working dog changes the entire dog.


Oh I gotcha- working dogs and breeding for working purposes dont require confirmation. It just needs to work. Like show huskies vs performace husky- showline gsd's vs working line gsd's- ast vs apbt's. Big difference in all of them lol.

Ambullies- bred for looks and companionship. However, some ppl try to clean up with apbt's, ast's or unethical breeders taking shortcuts. IMHO the abkc is the best thing that happened to the bullies and hoorah for closing the open registry next year in a sense that the bully will evolve and hopefully some of the other registries will recognize them as ambullies. :woof:

I like well bred correct and fit bullies.


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## pitbullmamanatl

performanceknls said:


> This is a great thread and I think it shows where some mixing started. I love the bully that is showing in ABKC now I think they finally have good consistency. I can't wait to have one in my kennel I really like the looks of some of these dogs and I want to do Obed and Rally with them. Any dog with food drive can do obed so I am looking forward to getting one and putting titles on them!


That's what's up, Lisa! I can't wait to see what you decide on.


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## Mach0

performanceknls said:


> This is a great thread and I think it shows where some mixing started. I love the bully that is showing in ABKC now I think they finally have good consistency. I can't wait to have one in my kennel I really like the looks of some of these dogs and I want to do Obed and Rally with them. Any dog with food drive can do obed so I am looking forward to getting one and putting titles on them!


:woof:I would like to see what you can do with them.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

performanceknls said:


> This is a great thread and I think it shows where some mixing started. I love the bully that is showing in ABKC now I think they finally have good consistency. I can't wait to have one in my kennel I really like the looks of some of these dogs and I want to do Obed and Rally with them. Any dog with food drive can do obed so I am looking forward to getting one and putting titles on them!


come get pig or mel i think that they maybe bully enough for you now that they have matured


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## Mach0

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> come get pig or mel i think that they maybe bully enough for you now that they have matured


I've seen their pics- they look great.
On another note- I like some of these foundation dogs. They look awesome. Some look like they can pull a mac truck.


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## pitbullmamanatl

The intent of this thread was not to debate what was mixed in if anything. To be honest, I don't really give a crap. It is what it is, so be it. Until someone shows me hard evidence then the history is as posted and this debate is old.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

pitbullmamanatl said:


> The intent of this thread was not to debate what was mixed in if anything. To be honest, I don't really give a crap. It is what it is, so be it. Until someone shows me hard evidence then the history is as posted and this debate is old.


:goodpost:


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## Mach0

pitbullmamanatl said:


> The intent of this thread was not to debate what was mixed in if anything. To be honest, I don't really give a crap. It is what it is, so be it. Until someone shows me hard evidence then the history is as posted and this debate is old.


:goodpost:


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## Firehazard

I hope ya'll see I was providin' sense to settle the debate; and couldn't have ended it with better words than mach0; I understood this was to see then and now and see the foundation stock of RE. That alone attracts a debate because of genetic manipulation (which Im leavin as open as that to cover everyones POV) though its apparent thats not the point of the thread :clap:

I love your up:'s Indigo, your dogs and bully the kids dog are my favorite if I pick a bully, my favorite RE dog is that one in Montanna; RE comes from working AST class IMO and bred right thats what you get.. That was my point of posting the peds as well as pointing out that in all registeries it the *ethics of individuals *that really make the dog(as a breed/strain/line) vulnerable, and thus hold the future of the breed in their hand by way of bad apple ...



> When I was young I heard men talking of it happening; then as I was in game dogs I heard it happend, Eddy Eddington along with dogs on the property found xnayed way back when.. Dont know if it was true, but I wouldnt doubt it; being back in the day before I was a shine in the eye, hearing it more than 3 times well .. Hmm I said to myself rumors true or not .. goes to show you dont fk with a liftetime of generations or generations of lifetimes of peoples work with bloodlines and dogs.. HORSES are more deadly and many a man has died for ringing horses bred for the track.. You dont hear about it cause who ever "they" are, did it right. LOL NE way just a rolling thought but the reality is work and show no matter the breed or strain ... all the difference in the world indeed Mach0, why I swear we should breed for work, and take the prettiest ones of that bunch to show.. JMO but that about dogs in my mind will not change.. I believe that "they" are Duming us Down ... more ways than one .. whoever "they" are.. LOL


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## pitbullmamanatl

Y'all talk about ethics of individuals, but I don't see anybody mad at the registries for allowing these dogs to be registered as such.


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## Mach0

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Y'all talk about ethics of individuals, but I don't see anybody mad at the registries for allowing these dogs to be registered as such.


Money talks. Sad but true.


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## Firehazard

They get just as much flak.. .which is why a good # of game dogs are private ped'd; as well as new registeries arrising because one registery isnt adhereing to the breed standard.

The REAL problem is people.. individuals and as business groups.. what would you do for extra $$$ exactly what people have been doing for the 40yrs: "fkn each other over and calling it good business " 

your right though.. absolutely .. we need to get organized and petition our individual registeries to close the books on certain dogs and the line here of or switch them by breed name in the registery.. ADBA is adding all sorts of breeds now, its not just APBTs, so we should petition collectively to change the name .. the problem is individuals brought the bad ethics in and they will once again. its up to the people in this country for everything, always has been. yes, ethics of individuals collectively is and organized and shared idea thus the practice of the registery which is made up of people, because as we can see no matter what the standard calls for we have 110 lbs APBTs.. or are they Bullies.. oh yeah thats that other thread about waterside kennels, my bad.. back to topic.. ... its on the people. 

its clear my ethics on dogs and the responciblity as owners and creators so to speak..


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## performanceknls

pitbullmamanatl said:


> The intent of this thread was not to debate what was mixed in if anything. To be honest, I don't really give a crap. It is what it is, so be it. Until someone shows me hard evidence then the history is as posted and this debate is old.


This does not need to be an argument, it is known that these dogs were mixed at some point so I see no debate. You are right they are what they are and I embrace them as such but what they were mixed with is a valid point in this thread that is talking about the foundation dogs.


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## Sadie

performanceknls said:


> This does not need to be an argument, it is known that these dogs were mixed at some point so I see no debate. You are right they are what they are and I embrace them as such but what they were mixed with is a valid point in this thread that is talking about the foundation dogs.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## Firehazard

Sadie said:


> :goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: what she said^^^^^^^^


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## MISSAPBT

x3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Codyswafford68

My pup looks just like Pam's white path china? (the black one above throwin knuckles) Like exact.


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