# Genetically dog aggressive or just bad communicators?



## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Curious of people's thoughts on this blog.

http://3badbullies.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/pit-bulls-and-dog-aggression/

I have changed my views on pit bulls and dog aggression.

Ok. Ring the bells. Blow smoke out of the chimney&#8230;.

I've changed my mind about something.

Now, if you know me, you realize how big a deal that is. I'm a tad stubborn. But, I think it's only a fool that keeps their old position in the face of new evidence. So here is my revelation:

All Pit Bulls are not genetically dog aggressive!!!

(Not all pit bulls are genetically predisposed towards aggression. And, while it may be more prevalent in this breed, it is still extremely rare. They aren't ALL born to fight.)

Now, in the world of dog rescue, this has been the accepted position for a LONG time. And I have always disagreed. And it's started a lot of "discussions".

See, I grew up around the world of fighting dogs. And what I saw, was dogs that were clearly aggro to dogs and totally cool to people. So, when I went into rescue, I was in the position of convincing people that "just because they are aggressive to dogs, doesn't mean they are aggressive to people".

But, then as I got more into rescue circles I saw MANY Pits that fought, socialize with other dogs. I couldn't resolve that in my head. Of course, and no one in rescue likes to admit this, but&#8230;.. There IS a higher predilection for fighting with bullies than other breeds. And their play style is OBVIOUSLY harder. So&#8230;. There is a difference. But&#8230;&#8230; How to wrap my brain around it?

I think I figured it out.

Their communication sucks.

Wait&#8230;. No&#8230;.. That's not it.

Well, it is technically, but I figured out the reason their communication sucks!

My new mentor, Chad Mackin, is one of the most respected experts in rehabilitative socialization. And he said "Aggression is not a trait&#8230;.. It's a behavior". That BLEW MY MIND. Because I had always thought the increased dog aggression I saw in Pits was genetic. But in the last few years I've successfully integrated multiple Pits with aggressive histories into my home. And I thought I had just been "managing and preventing" their fighting. But after reading about Chad's work in socializing&#8230;.. I knew there was more to it.

So&#8230;. What are the traits that we bred into them that created the aggression behavior.

Well, we bred them with a SUPER high pain threshold. And Lot's of drive (they adrenalize easily). So. So what? Why would that make them fight?

Well, fights are painful. So fear of injury and pain are a deterrent for most animals. But we bred Pits to have crazy high pain tolerance. So, we removed one barrier.

Now, we get interesting. In the wild&#8230;. Fights are expensive. If you get a cut&#8230;. You can die of an infection. If you get a broken leg, you can be killed by a predator. Or not hunt. Not good. So smart animals avoid fights. Problem is When you're in adrenaline mode, your ability to make choices goes way down. Chad likes to say that "dogs can't make the right choices, unless they're in the frame of mind that allows the to make choices". He means, that when a dog is adrenalized, he CAN'T make choices. He reacts. Well, we bred these guys to be "drivey", "motivated", whatever. What that means is we bred them to get into the frame of mind that stops thinking about the cost of what they're about to do is. And that removes the last reason.

And that's how fights happen.

The "calming signals" that dogs throw at one another are designed to let the other dog know, that they don't want a problem. But these signals are also called "stress signals"! And that's accurate. See, when a dog feels wary of a possible fight&#8230;. They feel stressed. And they throw those signals. The other dog sees them and throws their own. Then both see the other as wanting to avoid the fight.

Here's a super common "Pit Bull gets in a fight" scenario:

Pitty runs up to another dog throwing ZERO calming signals, because he doesn't feel like it's necessary. After all, he's not scared. Then, the other dog starts throwing signals, and the Pit doesn't recognize them because he's either never been around other dogs, or at least other non-bullies. So, he doesn't have much experience reading them. So he keeps being "rude". The other dog goes up the continuum and gives some "warning signals". The Pitty has no idea what this dog is "getting aggressive" for and goes into adrenaline, which renders him unable to consider the risk reward of a fight. Boom&#8230;. Fight happens.

If that happens enough. The Pit will get conditioned to go into adrenaline habitually around other dogs. Now you have an "aggressive" dog.

Looking back to my childhood, Dogmen were adamant about not letting game dogs around other dogs out of the pit. They always said it was because they COULDN'T be around other dogs. But maybe (even if subconsciously) they just didn't want them to learn how to socialize. Dogs that read signals don't habitually adrenalize. And a thinking dog may choose to turn. In a pit you can't afford to have your dog "considering" whether of not it "wants" to fight. If your dog hesitates&#8230;&#8230; Doesn't IMMEDIATELY scratch&#8230;. The fight is over. So I think their segregation from other dogs was more of a cause than a symptom of aggression.

Great&#8230;.. But what do we do about it?

Well, if you catch a dog before they are habitually adrenalized around dogs, you just have to teach them how to communicate. That means spending time with them socializing and being the moderator, or bouncer. You have to watch the other dog for those signals, and enforce them. I watch for the other dog to give a lip lick or what not, and I will go in and split them. Gently. Not loud or fast. Just enforce the signal. I praise (calmly) for good signals. Hell I praise for good reading! And as I gently lead them they slowly learn how to communicate, and I intervene less.

(Now, that is GROSS oversimplification. If you're serious about learning how to do this right, attend one of Chad's Socialization Seminars. )

If they're already HABITUALLY adrenalizing&#8230;.. You have to get them balanced enough around other dogs that the above process will even have a chance to work!

That's gonna be a project unto itself. But it's doable.

My two males have hospitalized each other a few times, and were BOTH habitually adrenalizing on sight. It took me 4-5 months. But now&#8230;. They play, and lounge together. They sleep on the couch together. They even wrestle, and play. Hard. And they give signals!

And more importantly&#8230;&#8230;. They listen to them!!!!

Anyway,

Just wanted to say that I have changed my view. Pit Bulls are NOT naturally dog aggressive.

They are naturally bad communicators, and that leads to fights. And they adrenalize easy, and if that becomes habit the will BEHAVE aggressively habitually. You still have to take more care with them than most other breeds. But they are not born wanting to fight.

"Aggression is a behavior. Not a trait." -Chad Mackin

Those simple words changed my understanding of my beloved breed.

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## Wong Izzy (Nov 6, 2013)

ames said:


> Curious of people's thoughts on this blog.
> 
> I've Changed My View On Pit Bulls And Dog Aggression | 3 Bad Bullies
> 
> ...


Wow Great Read, Very impressive, this is something I will have to look more for, reading material or what not just to learn. Very interesting and thanks for the share


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks for posting this.

It's very interesting, but I am still skeptical

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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

hahaha what you skeptical of? 

I think its a perfect way to explain what I have badly explained to many people lol. My dog is the way he is because of many circumstances that molded him. I could care less if he recited in public until I realized his distance was getting further and further and further away. No matter what he saw he got so amped up he could care less what the dog or other animal was doing. They were all gonna be a problem. We go to as far as 100 feet and he would do the war cry. The rest of the walk he was anxious and on alert. By learning how to change his behavior around other dogs, he is less anxious and can recover far quicker. My dog is a mutt, he has way more issues than dog aggression. I know many many working or game bred dogs who are able to be around other animals and I know plenty that are unable to be around other animals. For me its about what the trigger is and how you help/enable/allow your dog react to that trigger. You come to accept this is how he behaves because you blame it on a trait instead of seeing if something could be done about it, maybe because you don't care and its not an issue for you. Lots of people claim their dogs are born with the trait, but yet in all other dog breeds only 25% of dogs in CLOSED gene pools inherit a trait. So greyhound to greyhound only 1 out of 4 will be a champion racer. running is a trait but the will to run is a behavior. Border Collie to Border Collie, only 1 in 4 off spring will herd. Labs only 1 in 4 will inherit. If APBT typically "every dog" is DA then maybe its is more environment and behavior than inherited trait. Why would the APBT be different than other breeds in that regard? How can that be explained? 

Who knows! anyway curious about what you are skeptical off.


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I think it seems too simplified it a way.

It makes sense the way you put.

Maybe I'm just wondering (and don't know) how you would change that behavior.

I have actually been thinking about this all afternoon now. lol. And if I go through instances in my head where I have separated Jones from other dogs it has been for him being "rude". I have not seen his as aggression though, I have seen aggression from the other dog or cat, but he seems to think it's a game. I don't know if that's the same sort of thing though.

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## Stephan (Oct 16, 2013)

I'm not skeptical at all. Good find Ames.

Got my flame suit on though bc I know where this may go : ( ....(and Ames this response is NOT directed towards you in any way whatsoever.)

This mindset (not all "pit bulls" are genetically dog aggressive) has been my stance on this forum from day 1........and I've received a lot of kickback from members for it:rain: 

"furmommy" "softy" or "you're doing the breed a disservice by taking your Luna to the dog park yadda yadda" I've heard it all. For reasons that are beyond me, most people want to ride the coat tail stigma of "I gotz a badd a$$ pit bull" and it does damage and is not good with other dogs so I'm gonna act like a sheep and agree with all the other bad a$$ pit bull owners about my dogs SUPER DEEP ENGRAINED DISPOSITION TO BE NOTHING BUT AN AGGRESSOR IN THE DOG REALM. It's cute, and the weak and uneducated may ride that train but I'm not buying it. Sadly, it is the individuals that are clueless on how to train or deal with their dogs that turn their dogs into social misfits. Get it? Viscous cycle here. 

The fact that many are so hell-bent and obsessed with their "apbt's genetic disposition to "fight" and not get along with other dogs" is simply foolish and ignorant. In the same, one should not ignore the disposition of the apbt and the potential that can arise when dealing with your pup in any social setting. The disposition is not the end-all though (take-home message).

Nature versus nurture is no more the debate in this day and age....it is BOTH nature and nurture that shape most living organisms in life. It is the combination, and contribution, from BOTH. It is not one or the other. Dispositions are dispositions, they are not the end-all. Sigmund Freud is dead...and people should read up on him...he was a whack job. (I have my masters in Psychology)

There is a lot of extreme stance'd ignorance as it pertains to the genetics and ever-evolving temperament of the apbt. . I choose my battles now though with this specific topic as the ban stick is strong with me. :doggy:


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

yes, 1 out of 4 greyhounds will be the champion racer...well 1 out of 4 APBTs could be the champion box dog, we won't know because its not legal. Just because one is champion material doesn't mean the others won't execute this behavior to some degree, and when you breed tight -- when creating the breed....you are increasing the chances of each dog becoming more DA. 

Most bloodhounds are obsessed with tracking and sniffing...not everyone has potential to be a great search and rescue dog but they all that've that sniffing ability. I think the article is very interesting, though it doesn't prove true in my dogs cases.

Stephan there are some gamebred dogs that are just straight cold! And just love every dog they meet. Not every dog fits the mold. Its about taking the risk of having your dog attack another at a dog park without warning because that is how it usually happens. Most bully breed dogs, and especially gamebred ones do have some sort of DA at some point in their lives. It just has to be managed. However, you don't own a gamebred dog, or a dog that has shown any sort of DA and until you do, you may not "get" what we are saying. 
And no my dogs aren't "bad a$$" and that is not how I think of them at all. Far from it.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

I thought this was a pretty good read related to this blog about temperament, written my Nicholas Ryan. 
Whether an owner, trainer, or breeder, we all strive to have dogs with “sound” temperament but, not everyone understands how to achieve said results. What exactly is temperament? What environmental or mental factors determine a dog’s personality? Is it all genetic, so therefore it is passed from parents to offspring? Can it be shaped and guided by the environment or experiences the animal encounters? Is it possible to change or alter temperament through training? If it is, how do we teach a stable disposition?

The first thing we must cover and understand is: all dogs have different dispositions and personalities. This is a truth recognized anytime one meets a new canine. Being able to recognizing the differences and understanding a dog's temperament can yield many benefits: Simply understanding your dog’s personality helps us appreciate our dogs. This will give us a foundation for dealing with personality clashes or differences. And most importantly, appreciation leads to greater patience with your canine. The standard concept of Temperament that I have followed is defined by Wayne Davis of the West Virginia K9 College as: “The physical and mental characteristics of an individual dog, made evident through its reaction to stimuli in its environment.” 

We can divide the canine temperament into two very broad categories: The Sound Temperament and An Unsound Temperament. The canine that has a Sound Temperament is a confident dog that can be self-assertive without being overly dominant. This dog does not lack confidence and will investigate anything he may be unsure of. You can expect a dog of sound temperament to handle his environment with confidence and without fear. The approach of to life and the environment is assertive and investigative, not timid and fearful. A dog of sound temperament does not bite if startled or frightened, but may proceed to display some dominance. This type of dog makes an excellent pet or working companion when under proper control, and managed by an experienced handler. Now if this canine is uncontrolled his self-assertiveness could eventually lead to management or handling problems. Regardless of whether you own the canine for companionship or for working abilities, the mental balance of this kind of dog makes them a great pleasure to own, more people need to learn the skills to manage this exemplary canine. 
Now we must look into what makes up an Unsound Temperament. A canine of Unsound Temperament will rarely if ever display the calm, confident, self-assertive, non-fearful behaviors that a canine of Sound Temperament displays. There are many different behaviors that are thought to be unsound, many of the variations include: Sharp, Shy, Sharp-Shy, Temperamental, Submissive, Overaggressive, and Hyperactive.

Today it seems many people feel that they can ultimately reconstruct a dog’s temperament through socialization and training. Proper socialization and training can alter or modify the level of intensity in an individual dog’s temperament, but ultimately they cannot completely transform it. One thing we must come to realize is the temperament in the dog cannot be cancelled out, it cannot be transformed to another type either. Even with extensive training, the individual temperament of the animal will remain the same throughout the entirety of its life (with varying levels of intensity.) This is simply permanent mental/neurological characteristics of each individual dog. Although some dogs can show over-laps of multiple temperaments, confusing owners into believing they have altered or corrected personality traits.

If temperament cannot be altered or changed drastically through training and socialization, how do we proceed to shaping a personality? Genetics – the breed and pedigree – these two alone have a great influence on overall personality of the canine. It would be illogical though to say the personalities are purely determined by genetics. Nurture also plays a role in how the individual canine’s personality evolves, to an extent! This is also the reason why there tends to be a wide variety of individual and overlapping personalities. Being raised properly holds a great deal of weight when contributing to the canine’s confidence, sociability, and stability. This can also positively affect the canine’s intellectual development.

Now knowing what makes up and causes our canines to have the temperament and personalities they do, how do we go about ensuring we are selecting puppies with the right personality traits? What do we look for when selecting a new canine? The main idea I will always advise is to meet the mother of the puppy you are considering. If she isn't the kind of dog you would want, then don't even consider buying one of her puppies. This is easily the most basic and easy rules to follow when it comes to selecting a puppy. If you are unable meet the mother, you really don't know what type of temperament or personality you are getting.

As previously stated, the temperament, and behavior of the individual canine is guided by a variety interacting and changeable factors. It cannot be solely one factor, such as genetics or environment, but a mixture of interconnecting components that will ultimately provide the canine with the temperament it will have for the entirety of its life, no matter sound or unsound. When we as the handler, owners, trainers, and breeders do not look at that entire package, or simply just focus on one factor, we are then setting ourselves - and our dogs - up for failure. We must not simply write it off as genetics being the only factor responsible for establishing temperament in a dog, but we must remember it is the driving force behind it and will provide the foundation of how the individual canine’s temperament evolves. There are people out there who do believe that “with just enough love any dog can be a good dog.” That is a highly misinformed statement and should be regarded as such. It can often be too much “love” accompanied by a lack of structure that causes many of the temperament issues we have today. --Nicholas Ryan


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

I think my dogs are badass.... I also raised 2 unaltered males the exact same way. One is a popsicle the other is a psycho. I can only assume that since they both were raised in the same home with the same techniques that genetics played in with the da one..


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Exactly. You can't change a dog's temperament. I have socialized the heck out of Pyra and so did her breeder since she was born. Still didn't stop her from attacking her mom at 9 weeks old and being picky about who she likes. And Lucius, well he had no socialization till 4 months old when I got him and he still mostly loves other dogs! His "BFF" is another male dog! Lol!


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## Stephan (Oct 16, 2013)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Stephan there are some gamebred dogs that are just straight cold! And just love every dog they meet. *Not every dog fits the mold.* Its about taking the risk of having your dog attack another at a dog park without warning because that is how it usually happens. Most bully breed dogs, and especially gamebred ones do have some sort of DA at some point in their lives. It just has to be managed.


Totally agree. Especially the bolded.



::::COACH:::: said:


> However, you don't own a gamebred dog, or a dog that has shown any sort of DA and until you do, you may not "get" what we are saying.


No I do not own a game-bred dog nor to date has Luna showed DA but I do get it...I have witnessed DA and it is not a hard concept to grasp. But yes, you and others with gamebred pups and DA pups will know the intricacies more than I. The concept is not hard to understand though. 



::::COACH:::: said:


> And no my dogs aren't "bad a$$" and that is not how I think of them at all. Far from it.


I definitely wouldn't include you in that category  Sorry if I offended you!

I quoted this from the article you posted Coach.....as it's basically all I am trying to convey :cheers:

"As previously stated, the temperament, and behavior of the individual canine is guided by a variety interacting and changeable factors. It cannot be solely one factor, such as genetics or environment, but a mixture of interconnecting components that will ultimately provide the canine with the temperament it will have for the entirety of its life, no matter sound or unsound. When we as the handler, owners, trainers, and breeders do not look at that entire package, or simply just focus on one factor, we are then setting ourselves - and our dogs - up for failure.


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## Stephan (Oct 16, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> I think my dogs are badass.... I also raised 2 unaltered males the exact same way. One is a popsicle the other is a psycho. I can only assume that since they both were raised in the same home with the same techniques that genetics played in with the da one..


Most likely. So many variables though



::::COACH:::: said:


> Exactly. You can't change a dog's temperament. I have socialized the heck out of Pyra and so did her breeder since she was born. Still didn't stop her from attacking her mom at 9 weeks old and being picky about who she likes. And Lucius, well he had no socialization till 4 months old when I got him and he still mostly loves other dogs! His "BFF" is another male dog! Lol!


Soo odd haha! That damn Lucius. He will always remain a mystery lol


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Oh ok  no I wasn't offended at all -- I'm not like that. I just didn't want you to think that because I own and have owned dogs who are very well socialized and trained but are still DA, doesn't mean I am in to all that "my dog dog is badder than your dog" ish...just didn't want you to think I was like that. But I see that you don't so we're good lol!


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

When da and ha are known traits in the lines and the dog exhibits both upon reaching maturity its genetic... and what are the variables when I raised them both with the same techniques? Only variables are the lineage...


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## Stephan (Oct 16, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> When da and ha are known traits in the lines and the dog exhibits both upon reaching maturity its genetic... and what are the variables when I raised them both with the same techniques? Only variables are the lineage...


HA is not a known trait of the apbt...

If a bloodline is bred tight enough with a da dog then yes your percentage for said dog to display da increases. Again, genetics is only PART of the big picture.

When I say variables, I mean variables......most variables are out of one's control. Do you know for a fact every single experience those dogs had and how those dogs internalized/learned/fight or fled from it? If you say you do then we have no reason to debate here (bc I'll know you're off your rocker)(no offense)


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## GoingPostal (Sep 24, 2012)

Seems pretty iffy to me seeing how many dogs I know where well socialized, raised with other dogs, by people who are dog saavy and who are still reactive/DA. To say pit bulls aren't DA, but then claim they all are somehow social idiots with extreme pain tolerance is just as inaccurate if you ask me. I hear doggy park people complaining about boxers and labs all the time generally playing too rough/in your face for most dogs. And yet most get along with their housemates. I have 3 dogs, in varying degrees of social skills, DA, playing styles and tolerance to pain. They are all quick to amp up and redirect on each other given a reason to.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

JTP doesn't have ABPTs  he has more of a bandog type which can carry human agressive traits like chows, etc.and other guarding breeds.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

GoingPostal said:


> Seems pretty iffy to me seeing how many dogs I know where well socialized, raised with other dogs, by people who are dog saavy and who are still reactive/DA. To say pit bulls aren't DA, but then claim they all are somehow social idiots with extreme pain tolerance is just as inaccurate if you ask me. I hear doggy park people complaining about boxers and labs all the time generally playing too rough/in your face for most dogs. And yet most get along with their housemates. I have 3 dogs, in varying degrees of social skills, DA, playing styles and tolerance to pain. They are all quick to amp up and redirect on each other given a reason to.


:goodpost:


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Katey said:


> I think it seems too simplified it a way.
> 
> It makes sense the way you put.
> 
> ...


I have a mutt, I also think this article is addressing more with mutts because that's what the general public sees. Of course a well-bred dog could be out there and hap hazardly bred with another but then they offspring is no longer well bred. I don't know if it's the same sort of thing either. Mel started to react towards other dogs after a few bad incidents. He was not properly socialized as a pup but he did have friends and meetings I had no clue what I was doing at that point when I look back, although I thought I did. Who knows maybe if I knew now what I didn't know then he would be a whole different dog. Getting to the 5 foot distance between dogs has been huge in his anxiety level and behaviors. But he is still messed up in the head, always will be a love him is that cause he was badly bred or because he might be a pit bull? I have changed it by not letting him get amped up. I have many things I have tried with mel. I can share if you are interested lol



::::COACH:::: said:


> yes, 1 out of 4 greyhounds will be the champion racer...well 1 out of 4 APBTs could be the champion box dog, we won't know because it's not legal. Just because one is champion material doesn't mean the others won't execute this behavior to some degree, and when you breed tight -- when creating the breed....you are increasing the chances of each dog becoming more DA.


Totally hear what you're saying but is it increasing the chances of DA or increasing the chances of understanding communication which results in reactive behavior. Though just because will fight or start a fight isn't behavior isolated to the APBT, many breeds and mixes will fight. That's not in itself breed specific right?

Who is Nick Ryan? Is he a trainer? I read that on facebook, just curious about where it comes from and what he does if you know  Or does he just have opinions like all of us lol



Just Tap Pits said:


> I think my dogs are badass.... I also raised 2 unaltered males the exact same way. One is a popsicle the other is a psycho. I can only assume that since they both were raised in the same home with the same techniques that genetics played in with the da one..


But again that's leads to every dog is different. maybe your psycho didn't respond to same way to the methods you used? or he is just like Mel psycho but I don't think I blame the fact he might be a pit bull on him being that way lol



Stephan said:


> "As previously stated, the temperament, and behavior of the individual canine is guided by a variety interacting and changeable factors. It cannot be solely one factor, such as genetics or environment, but a mixture of interconnecting components that will ultimately provide the canine with the temperament it will have for the entirety of its life, no matter sound or unsound. When we as the handler, owners, trainers, and breeders do not look at that entire package, or simply just focus on one factor, we are then setting ourselves - and our dogs - up for failure.


that's exactly what I feel as well. Its not that genetics doesn't have a part of how your dog will turn out and with a different owner, environment, etc etc who know what might happen to the same dog.



GoingPostal said:


> Seems pretty iffy to me seeing how many dogs I know where well socialized, raised with other dogs, by people who are dog saavy and who are still reactive/DA. To say pit bulls aren't DA, but then claim they all are somehow social idiots with extreme pain tolerance is just as inaccurate if you ask me. I hear doggy park people complaining about boxers and labs all the time generally playing too rough/in your face for most dogs. And yet most get along with their housemates. I have 3 dogs, in varying degrees of social skills, DA, playing styles and tolerance to pain. They are all quick to amp up and redirect on each other given a reason to.


Many breeds would do the same thing, that's not an APBT trait, but lots of dogs tend to do that when over their threshold. I know a lot of dogs who have no problem with any of their housemates but plenty of issue if another dog was to run up to them they do not know.

I just think its good to think about. Thanks everyone for responding.


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## dday (Oct 5, 2010)

Good post Coach, the article written by Nicholas Ryan was very good, and I agree with it.
I have had several dogs for over 3 decades and they all where treated equally with human and "if allowed" other dog socialization.I personally don't believe the apbt is necessarily always DA, I believe it can be more accurately categorized as a "combat drive" CD. But like the article pointed out each dog is an individual. I personally have never owned a cold dog, but I have owned dogs that would get along with other dogs most of the time. But I have owned one or two that their main goal in life was to engage in combat. These particular dogs where NEVER taught or encourage to do so. And there was no socializing in the world that was going to completely change that! But I have had success with the high CD dogs if raised from a puppy with a small non threatening dog, they seem to do fine with this dog only.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

It was a funny read but that is about it...

Dog Aggression in these dogs is a genetic bi product of Gameness. A DA Bulldog does not equal a game Pit Dog however once that function tampered off through your common practice DA was the reaction. DA game dogs exist, however it goes back to the foundation of which Gameness could have been achieved and utilized.

Proof is in the puddin.. well over 140 years of it.

That article is wrong in almost entirely, it confuses Gameness with DA talking about the [] , there were.also several Pit Dogs that could also be housed or kept with other dogs and knew when to "go" when placed in the ring, theres that paragraphs modern fur mommy approach out the door.

It reads like a trainer attempting to discuss genetics... Which is essentially what it is.

The APBT.. The Bulldog is the most intelligent of breeds, it must be in order to achieve what has been achieved not only through thy name and all abilities that are under that umbrella.. but also the over 20 different breeds.that owe homeage and foundation to that of the Bulldog.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

::::COACH:::: said:


> JTP doesn't have ABPTs  he has more of a bandog type which can carry human agressive traits like chows, etc.and other guarding breeds.


On top of that fh will tell you about some ha pit dogs. I know kgb was man eater, same thing with plumbers alligator (from what ive heard), heard of ofrn dogs that are just as ha as da, theres a very well known story of mr. crenshaw cracking a prestigious pit dog with a shovel for trying to attack him. Though it may not be a common trait and wws culled for there were indeed some vicious pit dogs(whom were bred snd did pass the trait down).


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Stephan said:


> HA is not a known trait of the apbt...
> 
> If a bloodline is bred tight enough with a da dog then yes your percentage for said dog to display da increases. Again, genetics is only PART of the big picture.
> 
> When I say variables, I mean variables......most variables are out of one's control. Do you know for a fact every single experience those dogs had and how those dogs internalized/learned/fight or fled from it? If you say you do then we have no reason to debate here (bc I'll know you're off your rocker)(no offense)


Well obviously I have no control on if they're a naturally passive dog or gets scared. Flex has always been a cocky confident sob and it carried over into adulthood. He can tolerate a few other dogs for short periods but when hes done he tries to eat them. He also doesnt like other dominant dogs and has tried to test every dominant dog hes ever seen.

Louis submitted to a rat terrier and corgi as a pup. Hes alwasy been a path of least resistance type of animal. He doesn't get shitty unless he has to. He will fire up but only after hes tried to get away and avoid. He also doesnt appriciate ppl touching "his ppl". Ive personally have had to stop that dog from effing sum1 up for bwing crazy. But in his day to dsy hes a big softy.

Like ives said more than once individuality does come in to play but the genetic predisposition to da cant be ignored.


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

ames said:


> I have a mutt, I also think this article is addressing more with mutts because that's what the general public sees. Of course a well-bred dog could be out there and hap hazardly bred with another but then they offspring is no longer well bred. I don't know if it's the same sort of thing either. Mel started to react towards other dogs after a few bad incidents. He was not properly socialized as a pup but he did have friends and meetings I had no clue what I was doing at that point when I look back, although I thought I did. Who knows maybe if I knew now what I didn't know then he would be a whole different dog. Getting to the 5 foot distance between dogs has been huge in his anxiety level and behaviors. But he is still messed up in the head, always will be a love him is that cause he was badly bred or because he might be a pit bull? I have changed it by not letting him get amped up. I have many things I have tried with mel. I can share if you are interested lol.


I am always interested I. Learning new things lol

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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> It was a funny read but that is about it...
> 
> Dog Aggression in these dogs is a genetic bi product of Gameness. A DA Bulldog does not equal a game Pit Dog however once that function tampered off through your common practice DA was the reaction. DA game dogs exist, however it goes back to the foundation of which Gameness could have been achieved and utilized.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail right on the head KM!! Great post! :goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

That's where it gets tricky. Not many dogs are game but yet they are dog aggressive so many game is the trait and dog aggression is the behavior.

I just have a hard time thinking the majority of dogs are more than just dogs or they are different than any other breed out there since they are some of the most overbred and creators of mutts out there. 140 or 5 years it's still a behavior that was encouraged and sometimes without even knowing it.

With so many dogs being able to live in peace an harmony in the yard it goes into its a behavior to turn on and off right? If it was genetic there wouldn't be an off.

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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> That's where it gets tricky. Not many dogs are game but yet they are dog aggressive so many game is the trait and dog aggression is the behavior.
> 
> *I just have a hard time thinking the majority of dogs are more than just dogs or they are different than any other breed out there since they are some of the most overbred and creators of mutts out there. 140 or 5 years it's still a behavior that was encouraged and sometimes without even knowing it.
> *
> ...


All Pit Dogs (not just APBT) are different than other breeds by function, function defines the animal. Function and ability are instilled through the generations of genetics. If behavior was simply behavior, the art in which perfected the APBT would have vastly been unneeded. No other breed has produced more champions, grand champions on a consistent basis. Behavior does not produce 1.45 match, behavior does not carry that burden or weight of heart or desire.

Once you begin to change the function the same genetics that have been used for hundreds of years still exists in your ABDA dogs, hog dogs, etc.. Genes don't simply vanish because you are finished breeding it out.. The result? DA on a consistent cross the board basis.

Enabling a pack mentality for a Bulldog does not show "see, it is simply a behavior and they just suck at communicating" because often these pack mentality Bulldogs are DA towards strays and "outsiders".

So what then? You have enabled a pack mentality for 2 Bulldogs, lets say, but still DA towards other animals. Are you suggesting you just selectively curved behavior? Doesn't quite work that way in this case as the foundation for this lay out is "bad communication skills".. So, if you have been able to curve this and trained your dog to otherwise be able to be housed and communicate with your own yard, they will be able to communicate with outside dogs as well as the communication among dogs is universal. It isn't like a Chihuahua speaks mexican and an APBT speaks English where a Great Dane speaks German..

There were APBTs that were able to turn "on and off" in and outside the [], you just said Ames that.. "With so many dogs being able to live in peace an harmony in the yard it goes into its a behavior to turn on and off right? If it was genetic there wouldn't be an off." But before you said "game is the trait and dog aggression is the behavior."...

So you already disproved yourself.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> There were APBTs that were able to turn "on and off" in and outside the [], you just said Ames that.. "With so many dogs being able to live in peace an harmony in the yard it goes into its a behavior to turn on and off right? If it was genetic there wouldn't be an off." But before you said "game is the trait and dog aggression is the behavior."...
> 
> So you already disproved yourself.


That proves what I am saying, the ones living in peace and harmony although can fight aren't game or vice versa. That's what I meant. If it could be turned on and off then its chosen to be turned on and off. they could still have at dogs but we all know its not the same thing as game dog.

As far as dogs speaking different language actually they do all have different ways of communicating or different languages. I have a friend who dog puts up their hackles and other dogs interpret that aggressively or defensive not playful which is what she wants. Its not different languages depending on a dog breed but different depending on what the dog has been shown.

I hear what you are saying, I know its the same ol same ol tons of people believe. I have run the gambit of what I believe based off experience. Most of the dogs are not well bred APBT. I think that's what the confusion might be most, as in all other aspects. I like to evolve when other ideas and theories start to appear.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> That proves what I am saying, the ones living in peace and harmony although can fight aren't game or vice versa. That's what I meant. If it could be turned on and off then its chosen to be turned on and off. they could still have at dogs but we all know its not the same thing as game dog.
> 
> As far as dogs speaking different language actually they do all have different ways of communicating or different languages. I have a friend who dog puts up their hackles and other dogs interpret that aggressively or defensive not playful which is what she wants. Its not different languages depending on a dog breed but different depending on what the dog has been shown.
> 
> I hear what you are saying, I know its the same ol same ol tons of people believe. I have run the gambit of what I believe based off experience. Most of the dogs are not well bred APBT. I think that's what the confusion might be most, as in all other aspects. I like to evolve when other ideas and theories start to appear.


A dog proven game with the ability to determine situation and "on and off" is.still a game dog as it is proven to be so. None of that proves what you have said.

If you believe said dog is not game than you don't understand what Gameness is.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

then that would also be a behavior and its the crazy ones who have messed up genetics lol You can think I don't understand and I can think you don't understand but it gets us no where, just trying to have some good conversations on the long debated theory by MANY MANY people old and new alike have opinions on.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

KM great posts,, anytime I thought I was gonna throw some crayon you articulated as needed... :cheers:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

ames said:


> then that would also be a behavior and its the crazy ones who have messed up genetics lol You can think I don't understand and I can think you don't understand but it gets us no where, just trying to have some good conversations on the long debated theory by MANY MANY people old and new alike have opinions on.


Gameness dates back further than roman period of old war dogs, genetics was perfected with the APBT in more ways than one.

You are debating something established long before any of us were born.

I follow what has been proven through history, if you want to follow some new path you can but it doesn't make it true


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Interesting read but there are many holes in article that they do not address. They are talking about an APBT who meets another dog and gets into a fight after they posture. To me that is not true dog aggression that sounds more like a reactive dog which is behavioral not genetic. Being a behaviorist and understanding what drives dogs you can see the flaw in the logic used in this article. I could get fancy and technical about what is wrong with this article but I'm far too tired! lol 

So keep this in mind,
This article is someones opinion not FACT
I do not agree (what trainers do agree though lol)
Selecting dogs for certain traits over and over again genetically alters the dogs you are breeding
Instinct is not a behavior problem!
You cannot change instinctual behavior but you can learn to work around it.

Never trust a bulldog not to fight!!!!!!!

And last but not least.... This fur mommy society that is being created where you have a whole bunch of people giving opinions based off what they "feel" is right makes me sick... Dogs are very simple instinctual creatures, easy to train and learn if you use your head not your heart! sheesh!


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## Stephan (Oct 16, 2013)

performanceknls said:


> Interesting read but there are many holes in article that they do not address. They are talking about an APBT who meets another dog and gets into a fight after they posture. To me that is not true dog aggression that sounds more like a reactive dog which is behavioral not genetic. Being a behaviorist and understanding what drives dogs you can see the flaw in the logic used in this article. I could get fancy and technical about what is wrong with this article but I'm far too tired! lol
> 
> So keep this in mind,
> This article is someones opinion not FACT
> ...


What are your thoughts on this this statement below? Do you agree?

"As previously stated, the temperament, and behavior of the individual canine is guided by a variety interacting and changeable factors. It cannot be solely one factor, such as genetics or environment, but a mixture of interconnecting components that will ultimately provide the canine with the temperament it will have for the entirety of its life, no matter sound or unsound. When we as the handler, owners, trainers, and breeders do not look at that entire package, or simply just focus on one factor, we are then setting ourselves - and our dogs - up for failure."


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I do agree there are many factors you look a when looking at a dog. When we temperament test you look at what are environmental issues and what is the true temperament which is the nerves of the dog, what the dog was bred to do, and other factors. They all play a part in a dog however to think DA as it applies to the APBT is an environmental or training problem and you are wrong. APBT's with selective breeding for fighting (many components to that) is instinctual not behavioral. Just like a Border collie with sheep. It is an instinct to herd sheep not training. Now DA as it applies to most other dogs is different they were not selected and bred for that trait. UGH I could sit here and talk about this forever but I run a business..... A dog training business and don't have time to get into it over the internet but some people just don't want to accept what our breed was bred to do...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I find the debate immensely interesting. The gentlemen who wrote the bold lives by the theory as he said until very recently. I do think its funny that learning to understand your dog is considered fur mommy behavior, I find it natural curiosity. Everyone has points from experience and opinions. Science points to both theories there is no right or wrong answer at this time. (Not referring to this article but other studies where I touched on above) Especially when dogs tossed together are not well bred dogs. Most are not bred for the fighting trait, they are bred for many many reasons and to assume they all contain the genetic traits as those for the breed was originally founded is ignorant. Each dog should be viewed and judged as an individual. The theory can help or hurt depending on who and what dogs are being trained and observed. There is the saying that the only thing 2 dogs trainers can agree on is that the third one is doing it wrong. I just want people to do what works for their dogs and that's what really matters. Thinking you can't do anything about reactiveness and just accept it is a problem and can be addressed.

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## Stephan (Oct 16, 2013)

performanceknls said:


> I do agree there are many factors you look a when looking at a dog. When we temperament test you look at what are environmental issues and what is the true temperament which is the nerves of the dog, what the dog was bred to do, and other factors. They all play a part in a dog however to think DA as it applies to the APBT is an environmental or training problem and you are wrong. APBT's with selective breeding for fighting (many components to that) is instinctual not behavioral. Just like a Border collie with sheep. It is an instinct to herd sheep not training. Now DA as it applies to most other dogs is different they were not selected and bred for that trait. UGH I could sit here and talk about this forever but I run a business..... A dog training business and don't have time to get into it over the internet but some people just don't want to accept what our breed was bred to do...


Thanks!



ames said:


> I find the debate immensely interesting. *The gentlemen who wrote the bold lives by the theory as he said until very recently. I do think its funny that learning to understand your dog is considered fur mommy behavior, I find it natural curiosity. *Everyone has points from experience and opinions. Science points to both theories there is no right or wrong answer at this time. (Not referring to this article but other studies where I touched on above) Especially when dogs tossed together are not well bred dogs. *Most are not bred for the fighting trait, they are bred for many many reasons and to assume they all contain the genetic traits as those for the breed was originally founded is ignorant. Each dog should be viewed and judged as an individual.* The theory can help or hurt depending on who and what dogs are being trained and observed. There is the saying that the only thing 2 dogs trainers can agree on is that the third one is doing it wrong. I just want people to do what works for their dogs and that's what really matters. Thinking you can't do anything about reactiveness and just accept it is a problem and can be addressed.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Good post Ames! I bolded the statements that I really agree with and I thought were important! Personally, they sum up my stance to a T.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

So to sum it up yall don't understand genetics well enough to understand it so you are attempting to understand it and explain genetics through something else..

Because there is fact and there is opinion.and theory. Fact has been established and proven to be correct...
Not my opinion but evidence is blunt and plentiful


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> So to sum it up yall don't understand genetics well enough to understand it so you are attempting to understand it and explain genetics through something else..
> 
> Because there is fact and there is opinion.and theory. Fact has been established and proven to be correct...
> Not my opinion but evidence is blunt and plentiful


I'm talking about inherited traits that only have 1 in 4 or 25% in closed gene pools what parts are you referring? I can show you the study that proved this if that's what you're having trouble digesting. That is evidence contrary to the opinions you posted.

I also want to add these numbers can't be 100% accurate but going with estimates from the HSUS, who knows how many are unregistered or not going to a vet or under the radar. An estimated 5% of 83.3 million dogs in the US are an APBT. When you add up all the dogs considered to be a pit bull, not what we know a pit bull is, the percentage of that 83.3 million dogs is 80% are pit bull. So 80% of dogs are considered to be a legal and socially accepted term of pit bull and are mutts mixes or other breeds entirely and were not bred repeatedly for fighting. Who knows what they were or were not bred for, you cant assume one way or the other. I guess I feel the well bred APBT is not the entire 5% either. We all know a LOT of not well bred but papered and traced lineage APBT were not bred for the historical purpose of the breed. So say half 2.5% out of the 80% of total dogs that are labeled may still be bred for the historical purpose. Why should 2.5% of dogs, which are not even let off the yards to laymen by reputable breeders they go to experienced owners, be dictating the life path of 77.5% of mutts who happen to look like a pit bull and get incorrectly labeled them?

I get it though, its the chance that one might fall into the wrong hands and people not knowing the power of what they own. I get it I really do, I just think there can be a middle ground for the uneducated to get educated without people telling them their dog will not like other dogs one day in its life, at any time cause its a pit bull, but in the next breath say you don't know if its a pit bull because you have no idea how it was bred but treat it as one cause of the way it looks and don't call it one. Any dog can react to another dog, its not breed specific is all I am saying. Many breeds have issues with all other dogs and many breeds should be managed with care and respect for their history.

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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

You know something I think I agree they are well I shouldn't say THEY bc I can only speak for my dog, but my dog is an idiot! He wants the dogs at work to play with him SO bad but they keep giving him warnings that they do not want to play and he thinks it's a game

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## Cannon from NJ (Feb 4, 2013)

I would agree that dogs could be bred for certain temparments, for certain traits, as for hunting or fighting.... or just irresponsible breeding dogs that have not been health tested, because dogs have medical problems just like humans. The only thing I wonder about this topic is how many people automatically blame "genetics" for bad behavior or characteristics when the dog probably hasn't had proper guidance or training while growing up, or not getting enough exercise. There is usually a reason why a dog is lashing out or acting aggressive.... IMO, it ain't genetics. Usually being just trust issues and again, not enough training or exercise.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

ames said:


> I find the debate immensely interesting. The gentlemen who wrote the bold lives by the theory as he said until very recently. I do think its funny that learning to understand your dog is considered fur mommy behavior, I find it natural curiosity. Everyone has points from experience and opinions. Science points to both theories there is no right or wrong answer at this time. (Not referring to this article but other studies where I touched on above) Especially when dogs tossed together are not well bred dogs.* Most are not bred for the fighting trait, they are bred for many many reasons and to assume they all contain the genetic traits as those for the breed was originally founded is ignorant. Each dog should be viewed and judged as an individual. *The theory can help or hurt depending on who and what dogs are being trained and observed. *There is the saying that the only thing 2 dogs trainers can agree on is that the third one is doing it wrong.* I just want people to do what works for their dogs and that's what really matters. Thinking you can't do anything about reactiveness and just accept it is a problem and can be addressed.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I have a HUGE problem with some of these statements. A genetic trait pops up in a breed even when the breeding is diluted or done by BYB's. Lets make this easier and use a breed like the border collie. I use to own border collies and did herding among other sports. You can breed for herding and the majority of dogs you breed are going to have the instinct to herd. We test with with instinct herding tests. 99% of the dogs bred will have this instinct it is bred into the breed. When you have BYB's producing dogs this gets diluted and you it may not be as strong as the dogs being bred were not selected for this instinct. However you will see the instinct still in many dogs produced. No amount of training is going to change the instinct of that dog but you can work around it.

Now of course many dogs not being bred for fighting in the APBT's when it comes to dogs in shelters or show breeders. Or just dogs not being bred from tested stock. Ok we see the decline in DA with the rescue groups. The true DA dogs are the ones getting put down and most rescues are not taking. There are so many factors when talking about rescue dogs and show breeders we cannot cover all the what if's. We have to address the breed as a whole bred off of dogs that were bred for their true purpose. This is what I tell my clients when we talk about pit bulls, is what they were bred for and how to move forward.

Now we talk about the reactive dogs vs the DA dogs. Whole other topic as many reactive dogs get the DA label and yes this can be an excuse for a naughty dog. It's easy to label that pit bull barking at another dog an DA not just reactive. That is where the professional trainer comes in to evaluate what you are dealing with. The majority of the dogs I train pit bulls or any other breed are not really DA they reactive and with training the re-activeness is easy to solve.

Now yes hardly any trainers agree with training methods but when talking about temperament it is made of several contributors. You have breed and instinct, as in what the dog was bred to do, environmental, and socialization, that makes up Temperament. Looking at all those components gives you the true picture of the dog. The trainers "opinion" of that dog does not change what the dogs is made of, one trainer just might be right over the other. 
When talking temperament of a breed or instinct you cannot account for individual dogs you have to look at a breed overall and go from there. I would not temperament test an APBT like I would a golden retriever, or a poodle. Each dog must be tested against it's breed not just because it's a dog. This is why most shelters fail to make an appropriate assessment of dogs. They do not take into consideration breed types.


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## Beret (May 22, 2013)

Very interesting read!

Mind if I crosspost?


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Lisa I thinks that's the part that I get hung up on. Most dogs in a shelter are unknown and appearance and behavior don't always reflect what the dogs breed is. Physical traits have no way a guarantee on behavioral traits. You need to evaluate, Especially a mix that is just a dog. The dogs I temperament test at the shelter are all done with the same temperament test. Now I may assign a different number for their response but it's still the same test. They are all very different and who and what and when in regards to temperament tests just like real life. And getting into the training scene and dealing with tons of dogs there are so many unstable ones it's like cannonfromnj said the dogs get lumped as DA when they have never been shown how to behave. Most people accept it for "pit bull" type dogs chalk it up to the "breed" and work on other dogs who aren't known for dog aggression. It's a disservice as well to yet mutts different based on how they look. Understood it's not in all cases nothing is, that's all I saying. Nothing is guaranteed. And just having the ability to fight is the same as many other breeds and mixes. Fighting AND dog aggression is not a APBT on trait. Tons of dogs and breeds and mixes have DA and will fight.



Beret said:


> Very interesting read!
> 
> Mind if I crosspost?


You mean the blog? Sure just leave GP out of it. Lol we don't need drama from other sites or forums.

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## Beret (May 22, 2013)

ames said:


> You mean the blog? Sure just leave GP out of it. Lol we don't need drama from other sites or forums.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Roger that


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

What does mutts and shelter dogs have to do with anything? Once you start talking about unknowns you are no longer talking about a controlled study because who knows whats in each and every dog. What does media and peoples perspectives of what is or isn't a "Pit Bull" have to do with anything as well? If you want to attempt to disprove what is already proven in the American Pit Bull Terrier aka Bulldog, than look at the APBT.. Grouping all the above you might as well group everything that is dog..

I've already answered.. But you dismiss it, so you going to believe what you wish..

I am not one to say "your dog might be a pit bull so could be DA but who knows what it is".. I don't even see a point in trying to label something you have no idea what it is to begin with. So that argument for your article is out the window in regards to myself.

You can post your little study and i can break it down why its wrong or whats questionable and what is skewed however it doesn't mean anything if your going to believe something else anyway.. By the way, there are convincing studies for many thing we know to be wrong however if you don't know any better you may believe said studies anyway.

If i were to get together every citation, every source and throw everything at you that disproves your theory or against genetics it would be the size of a book itself to cover every single factor and angle.. Which i don't have that sort of time right now not to mention again, means little to nothing when you have a wall up.

I'm not saying your stupid Ames but what i am saying is you obviously lack an understanding of genetics to say some of the things you do or rather lack there of which is common, not that many people take the time to fully understand the break down of genetics. Most people know the basics, know how to read peds and such but nothing further than.

Theres also nothing wrong with you or anyone else exploring other theories to broaden your mind, however it does not make it true.. I've questioned many things in my years and have found consistency and answers through history and findings, trial and errors.. That is why i can sit here and tell you that this theory is incorrect, already been there. You can say that we don't understand each other or you can say i don't understand, but it is what it is. Until you prove yourself wrong for yourself or until you discover the answer yourself anything and everything can be easily dismissed as another opinion.

Truth is in the eyes willing to observe, to question is to obtain knowledge through trial and error. If you want to question it is fine, however do not believe it to be truth until proven true. It is theory or opinion. Keep studying and find out for yourself.


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