# blue gamedogs..



## Lvis

anyone have any standard apbt gamedog type physiques that are blue? all the blues i see tend to be bully and all the gamedog i see are black/white, red etc..


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## American_Pit13

We have quite a few blue dogs on this board that are to APBT standard. If you do a search on this thru the forums you will find a ton of threads on this subject.

Performance Kennels has some excellent blues however she is away right now so I am not sure if she will catch this thread.

Here is my Faith. Not a game bred dog at all but defiantly to standard


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## Gimbler

She's a pretty girl! That's the first time I saw her face close up. Intense eyes.


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## gamer

performance kennels has some game bred blues, they just popped out of a litter, I dont think that you can breed for game blue dogs.


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## performanceknls

Monsoon was out of a black litter. He is ADBA pointed and working on his Ch and is about 48lbs conditioned and 18-19 at the shoulders.








These were taken at the ADBA Nationals
















This is his daughter Tempest she is 45lbs conditioned at 19 at the shoulders

















This is his other daughter from another litter and she is really a pitterstaff. She has some Amstaff on her mom's top side of her ped but still does really well in the ADBA and is pointed. She is to standard and is about 42 conditioned and 18 at the shoulders.


















This is Typhoon's dam Dixie. I consider her a blue since that is what is in her ped and that she has blue nose. She is pitterstaff with a bully thrown in the mix back in her ped. While she is scatter bred and not something I would normally buy, I have to say she stole my heart and then I bought her. Long story but I really do lover her and she is ADBA standard besides her ped. She is about 45lbs conditioned and 18 at the shoulders.

















You are starting to see more in the ADBA show ring because people are starting to realize they are not as taboo as they once were. There are some nice bred dog that happen to be blue and you are seeing them more and more. I will be taking the dog above along with several other dogs to the Colorado ADBA show at the end of May.


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## bradthepit

Performance Kennels, they are cracking dogs!!! They look Irish to me. Irish are that sort of height and weight. Those dogs are stunning looking. Credit to you.


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## Sampsons Dad

gamer said:


> performance kennels has some game bred blues, they just popped out of a litter, I dont think that you can breed for game blue dogs.


Not gamebred....just correct regarding standard.


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## Chinadog

I know elvisfink has a beautiful game boy! Dont wanna post the pic without permission tho.


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## performanceknls

I do not think Lux is gamebred but he is one heck of a good looking blue. I think he is around 60 or 70.


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## Chinadog

performanceknls said:


> I do not think Lux is gamebred but he is one heck of a good looking blue. I think he is around 60 or 70.


wow makes him even more amazing lol. I want to know the secret lol I did not know that, he looks 40ish lbs with all that muscle on top of muscle lmao


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## bahamutt99

Yeah, it always makes me twitchy to see the word gamedog thrown around casually. Say ADBA-standard, or performance-bred, or whatever. But gamedogs implies something else. That's JMO of course. I've seen some nice ADBA-type blue dogs at the ADBA shows.


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## Black Rabbit

There was one blue pup in Dosia's litter. Both parents are black and they had mostly black and sable colored pups but one female came out blue  She was a cutie too I'll see if they can email me a pic of her


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## boogiebot

Lex's Guardian said:


>


sorry to throw this thing off topic. LEX your little guy is sooooo cute!


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## razor52

american_pit13 said:


> We have quite a few blue dogs on this board that are to APBT standard. If you do a search on this thru the forums you will find a ton of threads on this subject.
> 
> Performance Kennels has some excellent blues however she is away right now so I am not sure if she will catch this thread.
> 
> Here is my Faith. Not a game bred dog at all but defiantly to standard


Faith is beautiful... Reminds me of my girl Cali.


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## Lex's Guardian

kg420 said:


> There was one blue pup in Dosia's litter. Both parents are black and they had mostly black and sable colored pups but one female came out blue  She was a cutie too I'll see if they can email me a pic of her


Dosia has a very unique color to him. He's almost like a blue/black/chocolate depending on how the light hits him in photos.

He's really cool looking


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## Black Rabbit

Lex's Guardian said:


> Dosia has a very unique color to him. He's almost like a blue/black/chocolate depending on how the light hits him in photos.
> 
> He's really cool looking


Thank you  He is a one in a million. He doesn't really look like any of the other seal dogs I've seen, but I love his color.


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## Sadie

My girl sadie she is no longer living with me but is still my baby doll and is a great looking blue dog well within the standard 35 lbs


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Sarge is out of standard by weight but very standard in proportion... He is 22 inches at the shoulder and 75 lbs... His background has got a lot of GH show dogs in it and traces him back to the original RE APBT lines...


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## Lex's Guardian

boogiebot said:


> sorry to throw this thing off topic. LEX your little guy is sooooo cute!


Just saw this. LOL - Thank you!


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## Firehazard

many claim game blues..

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/2297-watchdog-bloodline-2.html

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/8040-t-n-t-blood-line.html

here and there, are many posts concerning this topic; this is beyond the beatin' dead horse, now fertilizer for new growth 

I 2nd that of Samsonsdad, the only game blue dogs are slate blue dogs which are actually black and instead of reflecting red in the light they reflect blue  this is also been hashed over and rehased; game is a term of is or aint and well blue dogs aint.. If they were you would see them advertised more than the well know yellow dogs, or wildside mix and fast lane, garners.. etc etc.. Its because when breeding game; your not breeding for looks, your breeding for mental soundness in a battery of environmental conditions. JMO


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## OldFortKennels

Anyone who lets color determine what is game or isnt, is a fool.

If you dont THINK there are game blue dogs, again a fool who has no idea of the history of the breed.


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## Sadie

Well I know for a fact this is a GR CH Game Blue dog ... There is no getting around this one so to say they don't exist would be lying because they do ...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA

And another one not a grand champion but has it's merits

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [319846] :: BARRERA'S SCARAMUSH

I have to agree with Andy on this one he's absolutely correct .. There are some yes... and I for one will never deny a good dog as long as it's proven it's worth regardless of color. Most serious dog folks today don't like blue dogs because it was once a rare color in the breed until the BYB's got a handle on it and over bred the crap out of anything blue now it's just a peddler's paradise to produce anything blue purple lavender silver whatever the heck you want to call it .... But don't get it twisted those ped's I posted are legit dogs and that bellon dog is a beast in the box and she's blue. So I am one to give credit to where it's due ...

Plus when breeding for gameness it doesn't matter if it's a rainbow color bulldog if it's game that's all that dog man care about.


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## Phoenix

OldFortKennels said:


> Anyone who lets color determine what is game or isnt, is a fool.
> 
> If you dont THINK there are game blue dogs, again a fool who has no idea of the history of the breed.


:goodpost:


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## Firehazard

Yeah.. One of those "game" rare "blue" boudreaux dogs came acrossed my path once. That dmn dog was game and all that, broke out his crate and destroyed my house; I came home with Hooch (INbred Jocko/Redboy heavy Jocko) who hit the door with my key and flipped that dog before I knew the door was unlocked, that dog sht from the front door to the back and all Hooch did was flip him. Didn't even grab him, LOL that dog DID NOT ENTER the breeding plan. SO much for so called GAME blue and the so called blue boudreaux dogs.. There are always freaks such as the 85lbs bingo dogs when the line usually is 40-60. It can happen but not continuous as game is not a colorbred trait.


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## Firehazard

Sadie said:


> Well I know for a fact this is a GR CH Game Blue dog ... There is no getting around this one so to say they don't exist would be lying because they do ...
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA
> 
> And another one not a grand champion but has it's merits
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [319846] :: BARRERA'S SCARAMUSH
> 
> I have to agree with Andy on this one he's absolutely correct .. There are some yes... and I for one will never deny a good dog as long as it's proven it's worth regardless of color. Most serious dog folks today don't like blue dogs because it was once a rare color in the breed until the BYB's got a handle on it and over bred the crap out of anything blue now it's just a peddler's paradise to produce anything blue purple lavender silver whatever the heck you want to call it .... But don't get it twisted those ped's I posted are legit dogs and that bellon dog is a beast in the box and she's blue. So I am one to give credit to where it's due ...
> 
> Plus when breeding for gameness it doesn't matter if it's a rainbow color bulldog if it's game that's all that dog man care about.


yeah.. I keep hearing a ringing as I examine the ped of these dogs:roll:


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## Xiahko

Sadie said:


> Well I know for a fact this is a GR CH Game Blue dog ... There is no getting around this one so to say they don't exist would be lying because they do ...
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA
> 
> And another one not a grand champion but has it's merits
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [319846] :: BARRERA'S SCARAMUSH
> 
> I have to agree with Andy on this one he's absolutely correct .. There are some yes... and I for one will never deny a good dog as long as it's proven it's worth regardless of color. Most serious dog folks today don't like blue dogs because it was once a rare color in the breed until the BYB's got a handle on it and over bred the crap out of anything blue now it's just a peddler's paradise to produce anything blue purple lavender silver whatever the heck you want to call it .... But don't get it twisted those ped's I posted are legit dogs and that bellon dog is a beast in the box and she's blue. So I am one to give credit to where it's due ...
> 
> Plus when breeding for gameness it doesn't matter if it's a rainbow color bulldog if it's game that's all that dog man care about.


So,this is a fighting dog?


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## MISSAPBT

Xiahko said:


> So,this is a fighting dog?


Which one? The tittle is bluegamedogs  the top link is definatly one


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## OldFortKennels

Firehazard you obviously, as you know, didnt have a game blue dog, many people think their dog to be game when in reality they have never even seen game. A dog that will fight is not game, a dog that will fight for a long time is not game. Agian I am saying this not for you but for those that dont know.



> ........... game is not a colorbred trait.


Truth!


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## Sadie

Xiahko said:


> So,this is a fighting dog?


Yes both are proven game dogs one is a gr ch !!! And they are not mine they are from mexico where it's legal to match dogs. Anyone who tells you that there are no blue game dogs is a fool they don't know what the hell they are talking about just ignore them don't listen to their foolishness LOL. They do exist they are not common because dog men don't breed for color they breed for gameness but they are out there. Let the fools argue with themselves I have shown you proof they exist. And if you do your research you will find that there are in fact more of them out there.


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## Sadie

I want to add that with TRUE game lines the reason you don't see many blue dogs pop up is because dog man don't purposely strive to produce the color blue or any color for that matter. Blue is a dilute of black dilute meaning it dilutes all the black pigment of a dog. Blue dogs are genetically black 2 blues cannot produce a black dog but 2 black dogs can produce a blue one ... so bloodlines like bordeaux that commonly produces or throws black dogs you might have a blue pup pop out of a black on black breeding or at least the chances of it happening become greater because of blue being a dilute of black. The color blue is also a recessive gene so both parents being bred must carry the gene in order for a pup to be blue. A breeder should never strive to produce dilutes not if they are paying attention to pigment when you breed 2 dilutes like blue on blue your just asking for health problems. Just look at what Dilution actually is and you will understand why you shouldn't strive to produce diluted colors or double up on them by breeding two dilutes together. 



DILUTION

Lastly, we need to mention dilutes. A dilute is a dog which is dd on the D locus. dd stops a dog from producing full eumelanin pigment (and also affects phaeomelanin to a lesser extent), meaning that the pigment it produces is weak and pale. It turns a black dog into a blue dog (with a blue nose and amber eyes) and a liver dog into an isabella.


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## Firehazard

this topic has been beaten to death... that dog is not BLUE as the BLUE dogs of RE/Gotti or even the bright blue watchdog out of Chaos.. That dog is SLATE BLUE much like the dog of kg. That is not a BLUE dog in the sense.. ITS THE LACK OF intuition or just general knowledge that the game slate blue dogs are black reflecting blue and or red. BLACK is a form of RED in the genetic code, so when the hairs reflect blue its refered to in the APBTs as slate blue or slate black. This dog also has no pictures to show the parents of any of the first four CHs, yeah sometimes this happens, however there are pictures of the proven boudreaux dogs that go all the way back with pics and ALOT of stolen dog go to mexico to be rung. Just sayin. There are also a good deal of honest dogs with peds and pics that go all the way back some that are SLATE BLUE and are mexican dogs out of Neverez Kennels producing Jeep/RedboyJocko dogs that are caliber to whites KA line. HOWEVER THEY ARE NOT PRODUCING BLUE DOGS.. the colors are not the same and should not be confused, however people hear or say blue from slang and well there it is. They look like some good little dogs but the peds are sketchy JMO I can follow dogs back to the friggin early 1900s yeah of course Adams and the early Boudreaux dogs have pics but the rest of those dogs, well... Opinions vary :flush:

(@ OFK haha you already know, that was the silent sarcasm. The dog I had was supposed to be game, LOL, an all white blue nose with almost a pure Boudreaux ped with some blank spots just like the dog peds you've shown. The difference is that dog got neutered and papers void. Not even goin there. your right I do know that I didn't know what I do know now, that dog wasn't game and all fighting dogs aren't game. Thats that rare quality that makes the APBT distinguished, game dogs are only found in the APBT genepool, and don't mess with the formula the founders set. ) 

JMO the best dogs out there are the few heavy bred Jocko light on the redboy dogs out there. There are others I favor the true bred Zebo dogs crossed right with boudreaux, sorrels, halls and what not.. Wildside done some good mixing em up, but they never bred to have a line of blue game dogs. THAT is a foolish idea..


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## Sadie

Firehazard said:


> this topic has been beaten to death... that dog is not BLUE as the BLUE dogs of RE/Gotti or even the bright blue watchdog out of Chaos.. That dog is SLATE BLUE much like the dog of kg. That is not a BLUE dog in the sense..


I can't believe what I am actually reading right now :hammer:

Blue is Blue genetically that's what they are referred to call it slate blue, grey, grey blue whatever makes you happy they all come from black dogs genetically blue dogs are black dogs because of dilution they will very in shade some are dark almost black some are super light blue the lighter they are is almost always from over diluting breeding blue on blue over and over and over again which you commonly see with many bully breeder's and in many bully bloodlines. I don't care if this bulldog is sh*t blue with with light blue spots on it... it's still a blue bulldog who earned her GR CH title in the box like any other proven game dog. The bellon dog's are the real deal my friend all you have to do is ask around know one is going to deny this dog or the bellon club dogs they produce some exceptional box dogs and soga was a very game bitch anyone who knows anything about bulldogs know's who this dog is .... I promise you that and the whole line doesn't produce blue dogs a lot of them are red and black sh*t happens the dog was born blue some of her pups were blue 2 of them to be exact one was a man eater and was put down... there is nothing strange about it happens from time to time enough said it's even more rare when they possess gameness . This blue bulldog comes from hard tested and proven game dogs no staff or bully blood up in this bitch like it or not it's a FACT regardless of your opinions. I am not even talking about watchdog and TNT because IMO those lines are NOT game lines. There are no BLUE game line's there are blue game dogs(rare but it happen's) within game lines. We are talking about blue game dogs from REAL game lines that come from REAL proven bulldogs and Soga is one of them.

Another Blue game dog

APBT ONLINE PEDIGREES*


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## Sadie

Here you go all you need to know about the bellon dog's and the only reason why soga has some unknown's in her pedigree is because her owner didn't enter her ped online someone else did and didn't know some of the dogs names but her ped is not unknown just have to know who to ask 

top bellon dogs - Pit Bull Forums


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## Firehazard

http://www.gopitbull.com/338654-post2.html

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [59171] :: LIGHTNER'S COLORADO IMP II

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/7707-old-family-rednose.html

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/21465-2x-jeep-red-boy-carver-help-5.html

laymans terms, or slang terms, or street lingo has changed the meaning from the meaning being inferred different and different minds with different associations, however the reality is that the slate blue dogs have been mixed into the blue dogs and its all in the wash. I haven't had anything that wasn't game bred or supposed to be game bred, and no blue dog has surpassed the jocko/redboy greats, or the Zebo greats who also have slate blue dogs pop up here and there, but thats just genetics. Its like taking the big mastiff sized blue dogs and breeding them down to 30-40 lbs true to size and form but a long way to go to be game. There are pure RE dogs still lookn like 35lbs apbts but they ARE NOT GAME BRED nor are they game. ITS KINDA LIKE HOW some of the game dogs Stbenedicts has shown in the 70's and 80's MOST people I've shown pics of early Stbenedicts dogs on the chain or at the show assume they are bullys, LOL way before bully was and unlike bully dogs we know Stbenedict has game bred stuff; but people insist they are bullies. But hey if you can teach me somthing these old men haven't, all ears.. rather all eyes..

I had a pic of this dog while at show after his wins, however I cannot find it now, it looked similar to Kg's doja but more like crenshaws gimpy. The lightner blue dogs are not the same as the blue dogs that appear out of nowhere bearing Carver, Watchdog, and other paperwork. Thats (paper ringin) why the founders of the line required 2w before the dog could be a bonafide APBT before that its just registered as an APBT it is not a proven dog  By the way imp II lost to Halls Searcy Jeff, also of lightner decent, in Oklahoma back in the day.. Thats my 2cents :flush: stick a fork in it I'm done.


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## blackb3lt

pretty dogs


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## blackb3lt

I wonder why my profile picture isn't showing up?


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## Dr.Q

Faith is good looking girl. All these blue dogs are in a superious shape and lean. And correct regarding standard, sounds like game to me.


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## OldFortKennels

Standard has little to nothing to do with "gameness". Trust me, give an old dogman a dead game dog, clean out of standard, and they will take it.


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## ashes

two thumbs up!


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## American_Pit13

Dr.Q said:


> Faith is good looking girl. All these blue dogs are in a superious shape and lean. And correct regarding standard, sounds like game to me.


Faith is gorgeous I will give her that and is very well conditioned, but is nothing close to a gamebred or game dog lol..

Shes all about lookin good an layin on the porch


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## leebooth15

*THIS IS MY BLUE STANDARD PIT BULL*

THIS DOG IS EXTREMELY GAME AND HE IS THE ONLY BLUE THAT I HAVE SEEN THAT IS GAME and correct .


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## leebooth15

GO TO THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE TO SEE MY POST


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## leebooth15

*the answer to your question*

this is a game correct blue


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## Old_Blood

I've seen a few nice blues, a couple game bred but most were not. There were some crossed with game lines but still had staff/bully in the ped. I fostered a couple so don't know their background but they were standard type. One o guess was jeep/rascal/razoredge likely because of the kennel that had supposedly bred him. The other anyone's guess, nice lean, muscular 45lbs with lots of drive and energy.



Firehazard said:


> this topic has been beaten to death... that dog is not BLUE as the BLUE dogs of RE/Gotti or even the bright blue watchdog out of Chaos.. That dog is SLATE BLUE much like the dog of kg. That is not a BLUE dog in the sense.. ITS THE LACK OF intuition or just general knowledge that the game slate blue dogs are black reflecting blue and or red. BLACK is a form of RED in the genetic code, so when the hairs reflect blue its refered to in the APBTs as slate blue or slate black.


Black *is not* a form of *red*. Black is black, red is red. Black is not genetically a form of red. They are not even on the same locus. (Recessive black and red are both at the a locus but our breed doesn't carry recessive black, only a few breeds do.) The basis make up of most dogs is either red OR black, in the APBT red or black is the basis of most colors we see. Black is dominant over red and is located at the K locus. A dog get 1 allele for color from each parent.

A blue no matter WHAT SHADE has a copy of the dilution from each parent. It will have a blue or gray coat. Dilution turns black blue/gray. A black dog blue, fawn blue fawn, if they are a tan point blue and tan, if they have a allele for brindle blue brindle, a smut/shaded sable will be shaded with blue (all with blue nose, eye rims, ect). Just the same as liver turns black brown, a black dog will be chocolate, a tan point chocolate and tan, fawn will have red tipped hairs and mask if they have a mask gene, brindle chocolate brindle, smut will have the darker red / brown shading (all with red nose, lips, eye rims, ect).

There are no genes which make game bred blues genetically different from other blues.

One dog isn't a rep of all dogs of that color/line. So I'm not sure of the point with the blue boudreaux dog. Sounds like a Hammonds female I had, to name one. But not all I had down from that strain were like that in the least lol.

You are high on the jocko/redboy and I can understand why. Really I can! Though there are dogs of other lines which are good in their own right and lines thst produce good bulldogs.


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## Lex's Guardian

Old_Blood said:


> I've seen a few nice blues, a couple game bred but most were not. There were some crossed with game lines but still had staff/bully in the ped. I fostered a couple so don't know their background but they were standard type. One o guess was jeep/rascal/razoredge likely because of the kennel that had supposedly bred him. The other anyone's guess, nice lean, muscular 45lbs with lots of drive and energy.
> 
> Black *is not* a form of *red*. Black is black, red is red. Black is not genetically a form of red. They are not even on the same locus. (Recessive black and red are both at the a locus but our breed doesn't carry recessive black, only a few breeds do.) The basis make up of most dogs is either red OR black, in the APBT red or black is the basis of most colors we see. Black is dominant over red and is located at the K locus. A dog get 1 allele for color from each parent.
> 
> A blue no matter WHAT SHADE has a copy of the dilution from each parent. It will have a blue or gray coat. Dilution turns black blue/gray. A black dog blue, fawn blue fawn, if they are a tan point blue and tan, if they have a allele for brindle blue brindle, a smut/shaded sable will be shaded with blue (all with blue nose, eye rims, ect). Just the same as liver turns black brown, a black dog will be chocolate, a tan point chocolate and tan, fawn will have red tipped hairs and mask if they have a mask gene, brindle chocolate brindle, smut will have the darker red / brown shading (all with red nose, lips, eye rims, ect).
> 
> There are no genes which make game bred blues genetically different from other blues.
> 
> One dog isn't a rep of all dogs of that color/line. So I'm not sure of the point with the blue boudreaux dog. Sounds like a Hammonds female I had, to name one. But not all I had down from that strain were like that in the least lol.
> 
> You are high on the jocko/redboy and I can understand why. Really I can! Though there are dogs of other
> 
> 
> 
> :goodpost:
> 
> What does it mean when they dilute in color? Is it when the line breeding is less tight something like this occurs at random or a genetic metamorphoses that just happens at over time?
Click to expand...


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## MISSAPBT

leebooth15 said:


> THIS DOG IS EXTREMELY GAME AND HE IS THE ONLY BLUE THAT I HAVE SEEN THAT IS GAME and correct .WANNA KNOW MORE ABOUT HIM YOU CAN CONTACT ME AT 334-356-2754 OR EMAIL ME AT [email protected]


Whats his ped, also what are you doing posting he is game? Game testing can only be done doing an illegal activing and you posting it over the net!?


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## fishinrob

Lex's Guardian said:


> Old_Blood said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a few nice blues, a couple game bred but most were not. There were some crossed with game lines but still had staff/bully in the ped. I fostered a couple so don't know their background but they were standard type. One o guess was jeep/rascal/razoredge likely because of the kennel that had supposedly bred him. The other anyone's guess, nice lean, muscular 45lbs with lots of drive and energy.
> 
> Black *is not* a form of *red*. Black is black, red is red. Black is not genetically a form of red. They are not even on the same locus. (Recessive black and red are both at the a locus but our breed doesn't carry recessive black, only a few breeds do.) The basis make up of most dogs is either red OR black, in the APBT red or black is the basis of most colors we see. Black is dominant over red and is located at the K locus. A dog get 1 allele for color from each parent.
> 
> A blue no matter WHAT SHADE has a copy of the dilution from each parent. It will have a blue or gray coat. Dilution turns black blue/gray. A black dog blue, fawn blue fawn, if they are a tan point blue and tan, if they have a allele for brindle blue brindle, a smut/shaded sable will be shaded with blue (all with blue nose, eye rims, ect). Just the same as liver turns black brown, a black dog will be chocolate, a tan point chocolate and tan, fawn will have red tipped hairs and mask if they have a mask gene, brindle chocolate brindle, smut will have the darker red / brown shading (all with red nose, lips, eye rims, ect).
> 
> There are no genes which make game bred blues genetically different from other blues.
> 
> One dog isn't a rep of all dogs of that color/line. So I'm not sure of the point with the blue boudreaux dog. Sounds like a Hammonds female I had, to name one. But not all I had down from that strain were like that in the least lol.
> 
> You are high on the jocko/redboy and I can understand why. Really I can! Though there are dogs of other
> 
> 
> 
> :goodpost:
> 
> What does it mean when they dilute in color? Is it when the line breeding is less tight something like this occurs at random or a genetic metamorphoses that just happens at over time?
> 
> 
> 
> It's genetic. Period. Mutations happen in ALL species. Albinism is just one type of mutation. The dilute of Black gene happens in most species of animal and is a mutation. You need both parents to carry the gene then the babies will come out 25% on average blue. So the original dog that could've produced this gene needed to be bred back to one of his daughters that carried it and then your first blue would occur. Hell, the blue mutation could pop up with a brand new black dog breeding program. Blue dogs can come from Game bloodlines, just as one day they could pop up in pugs.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Old_Blood

Lex's guardian

I'm not 100% sure what you mean exactly but I will try to answer.

Blue can occur in a scatterbred, outcrossed, linebred or inbred breeding.

Dilution is called such because of its effect. It is caused by a mutation which occurred long ago. This gene is found in other breeds like Great Dane, Chihuahua, Neo, Cane Corso, Boston Terrier to name a few.

ETA: fishinrob is also correct that it could happen as a new mutation. Though I'm not sure of the odds of that happen it could occur as a new mutation is plausible. It is already in numerous breeds from Chow, Doberman to Greyhound it is just more common in some and very hardly seen in others. It could also be carried in a line for many generations with being expressed until the right 2 dogs happened to be bred together. It's the same with health problems that lurk in a line for several generations. Double recessives are less likely to be seen but they can occur as a surprise as well.


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## fishinrob

I'm an avid snake breeder and used to be a huge collector. Every 5 years or so, a new snake species pops up with the dilluted black pigment gene. They are sought after because lack of black makes the other colors pop out. Red turns to a bright orange. This is why I laugh when people say it can't be in a gamedog peds without a Staff outcross. Dog's were bred for function, now they are breeding more towards mutations, big head, different colors and larger size. This is why Blue has taken off. Now if a gamebreeder gets one(Tom Garner) he sells it instead of culling it. Hell, hardly anything gets culled anymore.


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## Old_Blood

I'm very much into reptiles myself. So I know what you mean. 

As for dogs it seems a good lot of breeds carry the dilute gene. I've heard the staff issue many times over too, AST and APBT are genetically the same breed, so if it can happen in AST it can occur within our dogs. 

Same with Boudreaux' Ghost, blue dog, game bred.


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## Firehazard

Black is a form of Red..



> the hair follicles of an Ay animal produces only the yellow (red) pigment, but not black. Due to the action of modifiers, in some dogs this doesn't happen completely and some hairs (especially on the back and the top of the head) will have brown to black hairs.


^ why there is red OFRN dogs with that soot brown stripe on their back.. Why solid black dogs reflect red where rotts have red markings.. I've seen a few APBTs like that, Tudors, Lightner, and a few others produced such dogs.

In people too.. Ever seen an Albino Black Person?? Red hair, Red freckles and irish pink skin... thats from the MC1R gene.

Most BLACK has RED carriers THUS the reason Black reflects RED or BROWN and NOT WHEN FROM SUNBLEACHING.. The oldest purest African strain of people have VERY visable signatures of red or golden hair..

A^y and a^e are practically the same thing and determining signature of the locus is not so difficult..

if you look at lightner blood he produced reds/blacks and Colorados ImpII the first BLUE on register.. Who reflected red sometimes and shimmered silver at others looking almost blue..

genetically speaking, even in horses and mice let alone dogs or even people, the black gene is already carrying red markers and thus when dillution becomes a rec/dom it passes that rec on as a dom.. so there is very lil pure black in the world today.

A red dog is always ee while a black dog can be EE or Ee.. and there are very lil EE compared to black dogs that carry Ee traits.........


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## Sadie

leebooth15 said:


> this is a game correct blue


Yeah buddy that's really smart coming online talking about your dogs being game :hammer: Correction THIS is a correct PROVEN game blue dog GRCH see the pedigree? Yeah she's been matched in Mexico where it's legal top match dogs

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA

Is this your kennel? If so your not producing anything game so no need to come on her acting like you are.

Home - BOOTH KENNELS


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## MISSAPBT

What i have a BIG problem with is people going around saying they have a blue gambred apbt but really its not its a fad for the 'rare' apbt colour. not so rare when the gene is carried so much in some mastiff ect breeds, the crossed back in the the apbt for a few gens then it is a throw back when a litter is born, there may be a couple of blule gamedogs (which explains the dialuted gene) but witht he amount of 'blue pitbulls' these days people are thinking that it is comon for a apbt to be blue when its not.


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## Sadie

That's right it's not common for game bred APBT's to throw blue dogs it genetically happens but it doesn't happen in every litter. That color shows up commonly in Amstaff x Apbt's crosses because Blue is not a rare color in the Amstaff. There are no BLUE apbt bloodlines. There are black APBT's that both carry the gene that occasionally throw blue dogs. But in game lines you won't see blue dogs popping up left and right that doesn't happen all the time unless there is some crossing of staff blood going on. But it does happen in bulldogs just not on purpose.


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## Firehazard

> There are no BLUE game line's there are blue game dogs(rare but it happen's) within game lines. We are talking about blue game dogs from REAL game lines that come from REAL proven bulldogs


That is the best damm line of the whole thread........

yeah they pop up here and there thats what Slate Blue or Slate black was, so I was taught, a game bred dog that comes out Black with that slate shimer. There has to be division JMO dont breed a game bred slate blue dog to another dog just because its blue.. LOL


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## Sadie

LOL yeah that's how you start the Blue slate trend LMAO!!!!! Because 2 blue dogs can only produce blue dogs. This is how BYB's cash in on the color. Once you own 2 blue dogs you can easily produce more just breed them together it's that simple. JUST KIDDING DON'T GO DOING THIS !!!


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## Firehazard

:rofl: hahaha


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## Firehazard

I think he's mixing gaff/RE with game lines.. uptown, and who knows what else.. just from searching a few peds.. slop nasty ..


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## Sadie

That's what it looked like to me too FH ... A few yard fight battle wounds/scars doesn't constitute a dog being game if it did all of our DA bulldogs would be game LOL


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## Old_Blood

Firehazard said:


> Black is a form of Red..
> 
> ^ why there is red OFRN dogs with that soot brown stripe on their back.. Why solid black dogs reflect red where rotts have red markings.. I've seen a few APBTs like that, Tudors, Lightner, and a few others produced such dogs.


Nope hardly.

Eumelanin black pigment
Phaeomelanin (sp?) red pigment
Different types of melanin not one being a form of the other.

As for what you quoted that is true. It is what creates tipped or shaded sables. Red or yellow dogs with black and brown hairs. It has nothing to do with black being a form of red but modifier genes.

And yes I very much know the OFRN dogs you speak of. I've owned dogs of the color and I mentioned them in my last post.

Reflect red where Rotts have red markings? Rottweiler has tan point gene which is why they have those markings bit as for other black dogs what are you saying?



> if you look at lightner blood he produced reds/blacks and Colorados ImpII the first BLUE on register.. Who reflected red sometimes and shimmered silver at others looking almost blue..


Id like to see a pic? What is Ae?



> genetically speaking, even in horses and mice let alone dogs or even people, the black gene is already carrying red markers and thus when dillution becomes a rec/dom it passes that rec on as a dom.. so there is very lil pure black in the world today.
> 
> A red dog is always ee while a black dog can be EE or Ee.. and there are very lil EE compared to black dogs that carry Ee traits.........


Wrong again. Recessive reds are ee which doesn't allow the expression of black (eumelanin). Therefore the dog will be red without any black hairs. A red dog can be EE as well as Ee and other combinations as along it doesn't have a Kb, then it will black. You simply contradicted yourself with that statement, in order for a red dog to have black/brown hairs in the coat the must have an E or Em allele same for brindle. If they will have ee then they can't express the tips, brindle or black. If all red dogs were ee you also couldn't have red, buckskin or fawn dogs with black mask.

The dogs in my avatar is Ay/Ay Em and probably E and Kbr/Ky.

A red dog can have any combination at the E locus
It must have Ky/Ky at the K locus

For if it has at least 1 Kb allele it will be black. This mask the A locus.
If it has at least 1 Kbr allele it will be brindle. This expresses over the A locus (an at/Ay or Ay/Ay). If the dog is a tan point (at/at) the brindle will be visible in the tan.
Unless the dog were ee then it would be red despite this. Which isn't a common occurance.

You must have a black dog in order to produce black pups, with the exception of an ee. An ee dig that is genetically black would appear red because of the ee. Just the same a dog that is Kb/Kb will produce only black pups because it will give all its offspring a Kb unless this black dog were Ee and happened to meet up with another Ee or an ee. Not likely but possible. These same hold true for brindle. A dog must be brindle to produce it but an ee will look solid red and you wouldn't know it is genetically brindle. A Kb/Kbr dog would look black since the A locus is masked and you can't see black stripes on black. A Kbr/Kbr will produce all brindle offspring unless like mentioned about black dogs its an Ee who mates with an Ee or ee.


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## MISSAPBT

I thought every colour went back to red? I wouldnt have a clue but i have heard that on many occasions


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## Black Rabbit

Sadie said:


> Yeah buddy that's really smart coming online talking about your dogs being game :hammer: Correction THIS is a correct PROVEN game blue dog GRCH see the pedigree? Yeah she's been matched in Mexico where it's legal top match dogs
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA
> 
> Is this your kennel? If so your not producing anything game so no need to come on her acting like you are.
> 
> Home - BOOTH KENNELS


I agree with you Sadie those are no where close to "game dogs" 
For one they are not even APBTs they are American Bullies. They say on there they breed their dogs with dogs from another kennel, and then go saying Black Jack and Juan Gotti are in their peds. Gotti line is not APBT.


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## Firehazard

yeah.. Im typin crazy fast, and trying to juggle my 6 kids for christmas pics.. so I missed to very important words, That and When..



> A red dog strain that is always ee while a black dog can be EE or Ee.. and when there are very lil EE compared to black dogs that carry Ee traits.........


what Im saying is that only a PURE red dog which is ee, but black dogs that have no red are very rare in the APBT game dog world.. Thus the reason many black lines are turning chocolate and liver ... 
are you reading that from your grad book? sounds like some of my old test material.. 

I will give ya'll that much credit..

In all the world there is only one NON diluted black hair gene among HUMANS .. If ya'll can guess the ethnic group, I will drink my nice warm glass of sht the hell up.. If ya'll can't, well... then what your reading makes no reverence. I know what group it is, and it aint asian.. LOL nor African .. not even Native Americans LOL but it came about as a recessive gene, now dominant throughout the world.
and YES they are known to have black hair that shimmers like silver or blue..


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## Rudy4747

Haha Dooney has classic Re in him back in 5th and sixth gen. He has Jeep and boudreaux heavy through out the rest of his ped( 4x jeep )( 4X Black biter) . And wouldn't even try and say he was Game. Much less a RE/gaff mix.


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## Firehazard

MISSAPBT said:


> I thought every colour went back to red? I wouldnt have a clue but i have heard that on many occasions


:goodpost: before I went to school, this is what I was told by all sorts of old timers, breedin pigs, dogs, and horses.. I've heard from all them who bred some great working stock, that very same sentiment.. :clap:

Even in people red before black.. Learned that in school while in BI0 201 Lab (genetics)


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## Rudy4747

I am going to look into some books on genetics. you guys got me asking myself all kinds of ????s. Any recommendations on anything that will help with dogs?


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## Firehazard

Just throwing it out there cause I have to get up and get things ready for family pics, 



ONLY Cecilian, Swiss, and select WHITE ethnic people dotted throughout the Scandies down through the mediteranean and out to sea.. and NOW decendents of those people who are also married to such people, produce PEOPLE with Slate Blue hair SO TO SPEAK.. . 

all asians, africans, indians east and west, all have red or gold hairs only white folks maintained the Blue Black hair because WHITE people are the most prejudicial breeders.. The whole world is black hair brown eyes but WHITEs who are also prejudicial amongst themselves.. (not as much these days but you know where Im coming from with this)

so there it is.. Only white people have maintained a BLACK hair colour with no red/gold pigmentation. Even in China where blue hair once was renowned now most chinese people carry red signature.. ODD yes?? Just find genetics so amazing.. I love it all.

good convo~ I enjoy this stuff.. .


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## MISSAPBT

If that was the case would there not be blue labs also? (to the person saying it can occour)


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## fishinrob

If the gene shows up it won't be visible until bred with an offspring that caries it. From that first animal only 25% of the his pups will carry it and then you would have to get lucky and breed to a pup who had it. Hell, it could be in them now but the odds are so scarce in the beginning that they cross, so it can be seen. When discovered, heavy line breeding is used and then they get a lot more common.


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## Firehazard

Silver labs are a sign of weimerainer in the blood... NOT ACCEPTABLE by LAB standards.

The Truth Behind Silver Labradors

LOOK AT THESE MUTTS.. THEY LOOK FAMILIAR!! LOL
Silver Labrador Retrievers, Silver Labs, Silver Labradors and Labrador Breeders.

silver labradors

IS IT JUST ME OR DO THEY LOOK LIKE THEY GOT SOME CHAOS WATCHDOG IN EM.. ?? <<Buahhahahahahahahahhahaha!

Silver Labradors

Everyone is PROUD of their SILVER dogs.. WTF its a sign of muttled blood >>> sounds all to familiar. BUT HEY .. whateves.


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## fishinrob

So they do have them. I never heard of them before, but don't follow labs. I see they put up with the same skeptics also. Nature just happens, always changing a few things to cover it's ass in case of changes. Evolution is wonderful.


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## MISSAPBT

Should be 'The truth behind Blue APBTS' same thing but diffrent breed


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## fishinrob

That article is one man's opinion based on nothing Says the original kennel that bred them from the 50's(a long time well respected kennel) probably on accident introduced a weimeriener. You know the writer probably breeds TRUE black labs, and knows it all. He accepts the gene in Chows, German Shephards and New foundlands, probably because he doesn't breed any of those. All dogs started from the wolf originally and blue mutation popped up somewhere, but people refuse to accept that it pops up anymore.
Just like albinos pop up in the human gene mutation. Are they not humans? Are they crossed with something else? You can understand , a full out lack of all black pigment, but for a dog to get reduced black pigment had to be a cross. Tom Garner gets true blues out of his pups. Does anyone question his breedings?


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## Firehazard

all books are just some one or peoples opinion....

Its common sense, I believe the theory, simply because those silver labs have completely diferent skull and eyes than the other dogs.. MUTTS

I agree with Miss APBT it should be the truth about blue ABPTs as well... but thats JMO and opinions vary..



> "Silver Labs are pure bred Labrador Retrievers and their ancestry is beyond reproach. Fortunately, kennel clubs around the world do not have the political pressure from mercenary American breeders of "normal" colored labs and already accept silver labs without all the political fuss and pressure being applied to AKC "
> 
> Sorry but there isn't a kennel club in the world that recognizes silver Labradors. In every Labrador standard used throughout the world, it states that Labradors come in black, yellow and chocolate.





> This one was a laugher:
> 
> "There is no doubt the increase in popularity and demand for Silver Labs is applying significant financial pressure to breeders of black and yellow labs, but there is also little doubt that AKC will eventually have to succumb to the pressure to make silver a recognized color in America."
> 
> First of all, the AKC doesn't make the decision on what colors are recognized for each breed. The PARENT CLUB of each breed makes and sets the standards. I can guarantee you that it will be a cold day in you-know-where before the LRC, Inc. would ever recognize this color.
> 
> Second of all, as to the "significant financial pressure" that I and other breeders of the "real" colors of Labradors are under - BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *A responsible breeder never breeds for a "color" nor does one breed because of financial reasons.* Most responsible breeders don't worry about profit. Why? Because we rarely if ever make one and we do not breed for financial gain.
> 
> So you can see that all these claims by the Silver Lab people are far-fetched at best.


Sounds all to familiar........... LOL :rofl: The difference is the allowance of the blue dog in APBT registeries.. LOL


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## fishinrob

This is from one of your links. They have proven genetically to be NOT weimereiner mixes yet you believe some man's hypothesis that they have to be because they are that color.

At the end of the Twentieth Century, the frequency of silver (gray) labs began to increase in North America due to an increase in the number of chocolate labs in the gene pool of Labrador Retrievers. These Silver Labs in turn fueled an enormous controversy within the Labrador community.

Fortunately, by the advent of the Twenty-First Century, the controversy surrounding Silver Labs subsided except for a few remaining breeders of "standard" colors. These remaining opponents of Silver Labs are the K-9 version of the "Flat Earth Society". Unfortunately, those holdout breeders who refuse to acknowledge AKC's acceptance of silver labs, continue to confuse the general public by making unfounded accusations about the purity of the Silver Labs breeding. In an attempt to quiet the ranting of the more vocal opponents of Silver Labs, one breeder of silvers offered a $100,000.00 Silver Lab Challenge to any of these "experts" who wished to put their money where their mouth was concerning their accusations surrounding the ancestry of silver labs. And to the man, not one of those "experts" you see on the internet was willing to stand behind their Flat Earth accusations regarding Silver Labs.

Are Silver Labs Pure bred Labrador Retriever?

DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC. All conclusions were the same, i.e., "there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers," (see conclusion issued by AKC). Amazingly, the Flat Earth Opponents of Silver Labs counter these scientific conclusions with the incredibly insane accusation that the "cross-breeding" which allegedly produced the Silver Labs was either covered up by line breeding or happened to long ago to be detected by DNA testing. If anyone ever needed an indication of just how ignorant opponents of Silver Labs are, this statement should be the key. Every K-9 carries in its genes a complete history of its ancestors going all the way back to wolves.

Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same.

Conclusion

Silver Labs are pure bred Labrador Retrievers and their ancestry is beyond reproach. Fortunately, kennel clubs around the world do not have the political pressure from mercenary American breeders of "normal" colored labs and already accept silver labs without all the political fuss and pressure being applied to AKC (the original standard for a lab has always been "a coat of a solid color"). If a person should come upon one of the remaining "Silver Lab Hate sites" on the net and develops ANY doubts about Silver Labs, that person should go directly to AKC and ask the pertinent question to learn the facts.

Here are Albino Dogs. How did they come to be? Crossed with what Albino breed. This is the same theory. One has no black pigment, where silver or blue is reduced black pigment.


----------



## MISSAPBT

A true gamedog MAY be blue but becuzse it is an actualy rare gene its is very very VERY minute (sp). what im getting at is people saying there blue apbts are pure. look how many people are saying there blue dog is an apbt, the gene is so rare it wouldnt throw that many pure apbts that are blue.


----------



## fishinrob

99% of blues out there are Pitterstaffs, getting the Blue gene from the Staff Blood. I have one myself. Since the Blue dogs money making ability and rarity, when it comes up in game bred lines is probably being bred more than it would've been in the past. People aren't sticking to the criteria of game tested parents and aren't culling much these days. Once you have 2 Blues, all of their offspring will be blue and that's when it takes off.


----------



## fishinrob

Heres another example of how fast this can dominate if controlled by humans for just looks.

This is a normal Honduran. Note the black bands and darker orange almost red look









This is a hypo honduran(reduced black) Note the blue bands and light orange since the black has been removed from the red.









In 1993 the first diluted Honduran was discovered by Bob Love. They sold for 3,000-5,000 dollars at the time. Today,17 years later, 80% of ALL hondurans in captivity are diluted compared to 20% normal black. They sell for 50-100 dollars now.


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## truepits92

thats a great example!!


----------



## MISSAPBT

Yeah and how many of those dialuted snakes are there in the world?


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## junkyard

Razor hows that rednose colby dog you had bred? Remember me you internet thug?

you bashed a member of my forum and then you chased her around youtube bashing her unpapered dog calling it a mutt and telling her she had no place owning such a breed.

Remember the pics of your colby dog you sent me telling me how much you loved colby dogs and you went and got it from Lou himself.
When i asked for the ped you fled fast and told me your husband had the papers. 

You picked on a newcomer to the breed who was looking for insight and help and bashed her for owning an unpapered dog. Yet you lied through your teeth to me when i got involved but showing your true knowledge of the breed you didnt even know that the colbys dont ever have red nose dogs and havent for 100 years, anything thats fits that is culled straight away. Something any moron who has read anything about the colbys would know. 
So after all the bashing you done to a new comer it turns out your nothing but a liar and got found out and i am more than happy to point it out here and now.

Remember all those pics you sent me in those pms being all nice to me ? i still have them as a mod at gamedog i keep nearly all my pms that i deem may be important in the future and i am so glad i did. 

Rednose colby dog? lol. I put money on it you made everything up and that blue bully you have there is also a backyard bred mutt with no recorded history, but you still chose to tell people it was worth more than their car.

The moral of the story is, stop lying to people who are no different to you or even better, remember one thing........you lied about your dogs history simply to bash a young girl, yet she didnt lie and never has about the background of her dog. 

Lies will allways allways catch up with you even more so when you post them on the net because they are there forever.
You ran away and im here calling you out on it again.

You should be sending an apology to the girl or i will finally call you out in public by posting a thread there with all the lies you sent me , im sure i could even post some that that young girl still has too.

Members stay away from this liar she is a bully and has no credibility whatsoever.

Razor let me know when you want me to make that thread.


----------



## junkyard

Ladies and gentleman, Razor is not the person who had sent me this stuff nor was her the person who was the bully i was talking about, the pictures have been stolen off the net and like the bumblebee thread someone is passing someone elses pictures off as there own, i have apoligised to razor and want to clear it up it wasnt him, if anymembers see that pic anywhere please let him know as he has no idea until now people are stealing his pictures. Anyone else see a trend growing???


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## Rudy4747

I am sorry but what picture are you talking about?


----------



## razor52

its all good junkyard, no apology necessary. honest mistake. that is shady take people steal pics. specially mine..lol. it happens alot. i just hate there using them and saying whatever without me knowing it..


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## junkyard

rudy it is the picture on the first page where razor commented on a dog looking similar to his.


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## American_Pit13

So that we have this clarified pictures of Cali where stolen and miss represented ?


----------



## Xiahko

leebooth15 said:


> THIS DOG IS EXTREMELY GAME AND HE IS THE ONLY BLUE THAT I HAVE SEEN THAT IS GAME and correct .


You looking to be reported?


----------



## Rudy4747

Xiahko said:


> You looking to be reported?


Don't worry I never heard of any RE gaff mix being game.


----------



## Xiahko

^

Still......What's he trying to pull? I should call him for sh**s and giggles.


----------



## Rudy4747

Xiahko said:


> ^
> 
> Still......What's he trying to pull?


the only thing I thin he is trying to pull is the wool over some unsuspecting eyes. People buy blue dogs people buy game dogs. He want money, maybe. I can see no other reason.


----------



## Xiahko

Money or something else.....


----------



## Rudy4747

Call em let me know what he says.


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## Xiahko

I'm sooooooo tempted. I'm sending that to a friend...See if she calls,she's braver then I am. LOL~!


----------



## Firehazard

fishinrob said:


> This is from one of your links. They have proven genetically to be NOT weimereiner mixes yet you believe some man's hypothesis that they have to be because they are that color.
> 
> At the end of the Twentieth Century, the frequency of silver (gray) labs began to increase in North America due to an increase in the number of chocolate labs in the gene pool of Labrador Retrievers. These Silver Labs in turn fueled an enormous controversy within the Labrador community.
> 
> Fortunately, by the advent of the Twenty-First Century, the controversy surrounding Silver Labs subsided except for a few remaining breeders of "standard" colors. These remaining opponents of Silver Labs are the K-9 version of the "Flat Earth Society". Unfortunately, those holdout breeders who refuse to acknowledge AKC's acceptance of silver labs, continue to confuse the general public by making unfounded accusations about the purity of the Silver Labs breeding. In an attempt to quiet the ranting of the more vocal opponents of Silver Labs, one breeder of silvers offered a $100,000.00 Silver Lab Challenge to any of these "experts" who wished to put their money where their mouth was concerning their accusations surrounding the ancestry of silver labs. And to the man, not one of those "experts" you see on the internet was willing to stand behind their Flat Earth accusations regarding Silver Labs.
> 
> Are Silver Labs Pure bred Labrador Retriever?
> 
> DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC. All conclusions were the same, i.e., "there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers," (see conclusion issued by AKC). Amazingly, the Flat Earth Opponents of Silver Labs counter these scientific conclusions with the incredibly insane accusation that the "cross-breeding" which allegedly produced the Silver Labs was either covered up by line breeding or happened to long ago to be detected by DNA testing. If anyone ever needed an indication of just how ignorant opponents of Silver Labs are, this statement should be the key. Every K-9 carries in its genes a complete history of its ancestors going all the way back to wolves.
> 
> Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same.
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> Silver Labs are pure bred Labrador Retrievers and their ancestry is beyond reproach. Fortunately, kennel clubs around the world do not have the political pressure from mercenary American breeders of "normal" colored labs and already accept silver labs without all the political fuss and pressure being applied to AKC (the original standard for a lab has always been "a coat of a solid color"). If a person should come upon one of the remaining "Silver Lab Hate sites" on the net and develops ANY doubts about Silver Labs, that person should go directly to AKC and ask the pertinent question to learn the facts.
> 
> Here are Albino Dogs. How did they come to be? Crossed with what Albino breed. This is the same theory. One has no black pigment, where silver or blue is reduced black pigment.


How do you take a stand against someone who is equivilant in the lab world as hammonds in the APBT?? I know weimers, do you?? they are actually pretty good at huntin hogs and move similar to bandogs, I know a collector in nowata had all kinds of hog dogs from all nations comparing them to the APBT, bandogs included. I know labs, I had a son of the jump ch in 2002, but Hooch was a better bird dog, a better everything except swimmer so I sold the dog, a dog in the lab world equivalent to the best working stock of APBTs.. You didn't even know about labs, now you take a stand against the fact that BLUE or SILVER is not allowed or accepted.. This man has some real sense compared to that garble people want to believe; for years people believe the english bulldog is the closest decendant of the pit dog, some still do.. buahahhahahaha. .. and its like that.. The DNA test the AKC uses only tests to so said parents of dog. There are DNA tests that test full markers but its NOT used in the AKC or the UKC doubtfull in ADBA because at the core strain dogs are crossed and what lab owner wants to know they have a 1000 year old pit bulldog X Newfoundland mix.. LOL <scarcasm (kinda) they have dna tests to test if wolves have dog blood in them, that how I know  and it would be clear what dogs came together in AKC/UKC/etc etc if they used such dna tests.. LOL

I will accept the fact that a slate blue dog ( a dog like K's Doja) just pops out of the "blue"<<:roll: out of dogs totally unexpected.. but blues as in watchdog, and all that UKC blue stuff ... ~ Carver and Swinford worked closely for swinfords blues, and if you throw puzzle pieces where they fit you can see there are clearly TWO blue strains if not 3 in the APBT.. Hell swinford blues look like most BLUE APBTs today.. LOL you will not get a BLUE line of game dog because game dogs are bred for mentality just the same as working labs up there.. and those blue labs look like swinford blues too... LOL People don't want to believe it but they know it.. when a dog is black and it reflects blue and red, sometimes looks purple and it just popped up out of a litter of red noses or whatever thats not a BLUE dog.. I say this because laymen, common people with no sense will take game bred dog that is slate blue, or a rung dog thats been proven and breed it into RE or Watchdog or whatever other blue dogs out there losing all game potential and not culling sht.. Until Colorados Imp II no blue dogs were registered and he was black. Now all white APBTs and blue APBTs were supposed to be culled along with any dog with HA, (although we know some men just couldnt part with a HA dog LOL) peoples tender feet and bleeding hearts dont belong judging the working class anything... It take REAL work to get food, something has to die, someone has to manage that and the pests that take away from that so all the tender footed bleeding hearts can have food packaged in their lil dream world... Do you realize that genetic mutations do create another breed or species??? Historically the first whites were from linebred tribes people in Canaan.. Ironic considering "Noah" had an albino son whos son was Canaan  LINEBREEDING and GETTING MUTATIONS is HOW NEW BREEDS AROSE FROM WOLVES...

naturally, the blue dog will be a different subspecies, or breed, blazze blazze.. if continually bred for that mutation.. because that blue gene holds undesirable traits.. all BLUEs bred to BE blue look like mastiffs and move like them too... compared to the rest of the stock.. WILD DOGs IN AFRICA for instance.. not wolves clearly not domesticated, but from the mutations of mixed feral canines (dogs) in a "pack" unit solidifies the mutation and there for a new breed or sub species.

a freak black dog that reflects blue out of game dogs is acceptable I suppose, in that aspect yes there are blue game dogs but everyone I've seen has partial blank peds.. SO~ Im leavin it at that.. because unless its proven or from proven parents no blue is an APBT.. TG blue dogs.. LOL all his pups now even if they reflect silver blue or chocolate are labled black..http://tom-garner-kennels.com/peds-current/garner-pups.html



> As with early breeders who cultivated the traits of the Labrador breed through careful propagation of desirable traits and elimination of faults through selective breeding programs, breeders today follow the breed standard to ensure that the qualities of the breed are preserved. Therefore, at this time, traits such as black and tan, brindling, and silver coloration are considered serious faults of the breed and purposeful selection of these traits for breeding purposes is not recommended. Additionally, the American Kennel Club recognizes only Labradors which are black, chocolate, or yellow. The AKC standard for the Labrador specifically states: "The Labrador retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or combination of colors is a disqualification."


Albino APBTs have Blue or Purple eyes and flesh colored nose and eyelids.. (green eyes occur in buckskin red, buckskin yellow, and chocolate dogs not in albinos; silver eyes or white eyes occur in blues and merles as well as all white dogs but not in albinos) LOL








this is an albino puppy out of two black nose dogs.. the WHOLE puppy is FLESH in color .. notice.. 
not albino... one green eye one blue eye.. boyles dogs black and white have the same eyes.. 









albino APBT.. purple eyes.. the whole dog flesh in color,, not white not red.. flesh..


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## Old_Blood

Firehazard said:


> what Im saying is that only a PURE red dog which is ee, but black dogs that have no red are very rare in the APBT game dog world.. Thus the reason many black lines are turning chocolate and liver ...


I still don't understand what you mean. Black lines produce chocolate because those dogs have 2 alleles for liver (red nose). A chocolate is a black dog that is bb. It has nothing to do with the E locus. I do somewhat understand your point about black dogs having red, maybe. If you are referring to seal dogs? It's not genetically proven but a black dog who is Ee could be an explaination for the color. A single copy may give an incomplete dominance. I've seen some blues with that distinction in they're coat as well. My Boudreaux dogs I'd consider a true black, no brown or red tones. I've had them in other lines. How common do you believe ee dogs are? With red nose dogs you can't tell, but I see so many black nose that are at least E or Em.


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## Old_Blood

fishinrob said:


> 99% of blues out there are Pitterstaffs, getting the Blue gene from the Staff Blood. I have one myself. Since the Blue dogs money making ability and rarity, when it comes up in game bred lines is probably being bred more than it would've been in the past. People aren't sticking to the criteria of game tested parents and aren't culling much these days. Once you have 2 Blues, all of their offspring will be blue and that's when it takes off.


I agree, sometimes they blue comes from way back but if you look in the pedigree there is staff. It can still happen within the APBT since staff came from them, the foundation was game lines. Who was the first blue staff? What line did they start popping up in?

They will almost always be blue, in the very least blue nose (blue fawn, blue brindle). So a recessive red from blue parents would be red with a blue nose.... hmmmmm that would be an oddity.



fishinrob said:


> In 1993 the first diluted Honduran was discovered by Bob Love. They sold for 3,000-5,000 dollars at the time. Today,17 years later, 80% of ALL hondurans in captivity are diluted compared to 20% normal black. They sell for 50-100 dollars now.


I prefer to keep hypos and anerys myself.

It seems vanishing pattern are all the rage now.


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## Old_Blood

As for everything else I've taken in.....

If silver labs are pure a simple DNA test will prove it. I say the same to those with merle Pits. 
The 2nd dog in the albino pics looks like a white red nose APBT. Not an albino. I've had dogs which were red have some lack of pigment on the nose, especially high whites. They had patches/spots of coat color so they were obviously not albino. There is no reason to think that a solid white dog wouldn't have a butterfly nose, doesn't make them albino. If they were a black nose they'd never be suggested as an albino.


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## [email protected]

yes i have a blue game dog all game stock and my stud dog is black and i bread him 2 time's and he gave me 4 blues each time google spk bone pedigree him and spk heifer in off the same litter ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [401091] :: SPK'S BONE


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## Firehazard

Thats not blue... Thats seal... BLUE is NOT a game dog term thats for the show people, because then people will buy it cause it blue and breed it to a blue show dog being the most important reason today, however the old timers didn't use it so we shouldnt either if its game origin.


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## KMdogs

Firehazard said:


> Thats not blue... Thats seal... BLUE is NOT a game dog term thats for the show people, because then people will buy it cause it blue and breed it to a blue show dog being the most important reason today, however the old timers didn't use it so we shouldnt either if its game origin.


:goodpost: though i myself am guilty of referring to the more modern terminology from time to time. No matter the title of the color in the good ole days they associated the color with being a cur, wasn't a color of a game dog nor was it a color for a Bulldog. If we are to keep these dogs alive IMHO why change the over hundred years that obviously worked?

Now can these blue/seal/what have you dogs perform? Sure, PK's hound from i've seen has done well and there have been a few pit dogs out there such as Soga.. Common? Far from it. Reason for it? You bet. From personal reasoning from the old timers to the knowledge we have now about genetics, in working hounds, pit dogs, etc.. World wide, all speaking legally.. Color came down from the ole performance AST's any how at one point or another.. Today virtually all out there are crossed in fairly recent with the AST or SBT.


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## Sadie

[email protected] said:


> yes i have a blue game dog all game stock and my stud dog is black and i bread him 2 time's and he gave me 4 blues each time google spk bone pedigree him and spk heifer in off the same litter ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [401091] :: SPK'S BONE


The dog looks black and white or seal and white to me. Do you have a better picture? And why are you calling your dog game online!:stick: No really if the dog is grey it's coming from the eli in your hound


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## Firehazard

I'll tell ya'll one thing... its only a matter of time until there are blue JRB dogs as well.. Soga crossed into the SK stuff here while back and how genetics does and people are they will match up two dogs to be bred together and both will be referred to as "blue" 

... (sigh's)


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## KMdogs

Firehazard said:


> I'll tell ya'll one thing... its only a matter of time until there are blue JRB dogs as well.. Soga crossed into the SK stuff here while back and how genetics does and people are they will match up two dogs to be bred together and both will be referred to as "blue"
> 
> ... (sigh's)


And when it does you can bet your life savings you will see an explosion of blue ADBA registered bulldogs as well.. Ten fold from the current.

Its all gone to  and theres very little anyone can do about it.. Theres still a tight knit circle doing it right.. from the good ole days and thats whats going to keep the hounds alive.

Its all marketing and everyone who owns anything remotely "pit bull" thinks they need to take it upon themselves to breed.. gotta have that cash flow security. That % is just getting larger by the minute, almost as large as those that put down getting a breed of choice vs adopting. Like i said all gone to .. blues, merles, seals, game no game, cur no cur show working.. BYB vs responsible.. Preservation vs making a dollar on the cent. One will always be ahead but in the end we all know who will be left standing.. :stick:


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## Sadie

Better not be any Blue RJ dogs! Or I am calling RUNG on someone LOL ... RJ dog's are known for being red red nose or red/black nose.


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## KMdogs

Sadie said:


> Better not be any Blue RJ dogs! Or I am calling RUNG on someone LOL ... RJ dog's are known for being red red nose or red/black nose.


Give it time and they will be known for being blue red nose or blue/BLUEEE nose. :stick:


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## Sadie

LOL Yeah not in this yard if I saw anything remotely grey popping out of my dogs I would be demanding a refund after I returned the dog's ashes to the breeder LMAO . No game dog fancier cares about a blue dog! Blue dog's have their place in the show ring  And I say that with the up most respect.


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## Firehazard

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: @ Sadie and KM... 

Wait a minute, people already ask and refer to red nose buckskin variations as "blue" 

Oh No. Other than the good stuff the main stream is about to go to :flush:


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## Sadie

firehazard said:


> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: @ sadie and km...
> 
> Wait a minute, people already ask and refer to
> red nose buckskin variations as "blue"
> 
> oh no. Other than the good stuff the main stream is about to go to :flush:


...................


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## Chimera Kennels

Seal and blue are different. I have had both. Seal is a black dog...that if clean and in the light has an indigo appearance to it on the outline of the dog almost like the old "hi-pro glow" commercials." Blue however is a diluted black. I have never studied the genetics of seal, as I don't breed for color, but as mentioned seal has been seen in some game bred dogs.

This girl, Snaps, came from game lines and was a seal. It is difficult to tell what she looks like in a picture though.




























Here is one of our blue dogs...


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## Firehazard

:goodpost: I recognize that dog uptop... seems like its a hammonds cross


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## Black Rabbit

Firehazard said:


> :goodpost: I recognize that dog uptop... seems like its a hammonds cross


That's the Alligator/Hammonds bitch from one of Cane76's old threads 

first ped on the thread 

http://www.gopitbull.com/keith-cane76-campos/2151-plumbers-alligator-hammonds-rufus-blood-lines.html


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## Chimera Kennels

Interesting. Someone relisted her pedigree and while I am still listed as her owner, the link above doesn't show her offspring. Here is her original pedigree...with offspring listed.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [51991] :: CHIMERA'S SNAPS

I had no idea you all were talking about Snaps before. She was a very tough girl. We bred her a few times and then sold her to a guy up in Indiana. Here is her old page on our website... Snaps - Chimera Kennels

Here are some more pictures of her...with my daughter Courtney...










We bred her to our boy, Sorrells' Captain Skip... 
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=216818










That breeding produced the offspring below...

Chimera's Chief... ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [277187] :: CHIMERA'S CHIEF




























Chimera's Hurricane (aka "Cain")... ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175033] :: CHIMERA'S HURRICANE (CAIN)



















Chimera's Pac-Man... ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [212057] :: CHIMERA'S PAC-MAN




























Chimera's Phoenix...


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## Firehazard

^^^ see NOW that is FUNNY ... :roll:

..........................................................................sidenote:

See man.. I knew you had some dogs... the quality of Chimera bulldog or mastiff your breeding I just knew you had a good handle on some bulldog before. Know how to build em. Snap looks like she means business.....


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## Black Rabbit

Gosh you have some really nice dogs. I love me some Snaps


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## [email protected]

sadie. blue, seal, grey, how every you would like to say it its not black and if saying game is against the law,we all going. and i know all about the 1976 law i breed for show today
so i say what i wanna not to be ugly


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## MSK

[email protected] said:


> sadie. blue, seal, grey, how every you would like to say it its not black and if saying game is against the law,we all going. and i know all about the 1976 law i breed for show today
> so i say what i wanna not to be ugly


This thread is way over a year old and that member doesn't even get on here anymore.


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## [email protected]

Lvis said:


> anyone have any standard apbt gamedog type physiques that are blue? all the blues i see tend to be bully and all the gamedog i see are black/white, red etc..


 yes i have a blue game line dog down of boudreaux skull the only pic i have is on peds.google spk bone or e-mamail me (email removed, PM user)


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## American_Pit13

[email protected] said:


> yes i have a blue game line dog down of boudreaux skull the only pic i have is on peds.google spk bone or e-mamail me


As said above


MSK said:


> This thread is way over a year old and that member doesn't even get on here anymore.


This thread is very old and these members are no longer here.


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## Firehazard

RAISED>>> FROM THE DEAD>>>> hahaha!


I had some of that blue boudreaux game blood.. LOL ... Hooch used to go to work with and when we got home I opened the door and that 75lbs blue boudreaux dog  himself from the front door to the back where I finally got ahold of the two and the funny thing is .. not one serious bite or hold one.. he was in and gettin'.. 

Except for the FLUKES there are no blue dogs proven game.. they sure dont breed true and taint a whole line all to  just look southern crossed his JRB into the exact stock sadie was talking about it was junk .. compared to the generation before. 

Blue dogs with tons of drive and ability,, yes.. blue dogs proven game.. not so many..


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## Goemon

[email protected] said:


> yes i have a blue game line dog down of boudreaux skull the only pic i have is on peds.google spk bone or e-mamail me


You must be of the new school....
It's really simple. Blue dogs are not game...they are show stock. Period. 
Put them in the [], they will prove to be curs. They are junk for [] dogs.
That is why, even in countries where fighting is legal, blues are never used.
The fighting blues have been extinct for over 100 years.......................
And Floyds dogs are not blue.
I invited an old timer on here, who matched dogs before 1976, and he said:
"These new kids don't know a thing about these dogs...and they won't listen to the truth.
Besides, what the [email protected]@k do I know about blues!?"


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## American_Pit13

Firehazard said:


> Blue dogs with tons of drive and ability,, yes.. blue dogs proven game.. not so many..


I think a big reason why there are not proven blue dogs is due to culling of the color. I don't think blue dogs were even getting to the [] to begin with to have a chance to be proven. If blue dogs did pop up ( but were looked on badly) not to many dog men would be into showing off their blue dog lol. People say color didn't matter, but from all I have seen of how people refer to blues I think color did matter and people didn't want to be associated with it or have their yard know for producing or owning a blue dog.

There are a few blue gamebred dogs out there so we know they existed, I just think they were avoided. Unlike now where you have people breeding for the recessive which is why there is such an abundance.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

American_Pit13 said:


> I think a big reason why there are not proven blue dogs is due to culling of the color. I don't think blue dogs were even getting to the [] to begin with to have a chance to be proven. If blue dogs did pop up ( but were looked on badly) not to many dog men would be into showing off their blue dog lol. People say color didn't matter, but from all I have seen of how people refer to blues I think color did matter and people didn't want to be associated with it or have their yard know for producing or owning a blue dog.
> 
> There are a few blue gamebred dogs out there so we know they existed, I just think they were avoided. Unlike now where you have people breeding for the recessive which is why there is such an abundance.


:goodpost: yeah this!

Yeah I think u nailed it with this


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## American_Pit13

I mean it's all speculation as none of us were there. We can read whats in the books, but that is all what someone choses to write. From everything I have seen written about the color (as if begin blue changed the dog more than just color) it wouldn't surprise.


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## Firehazard

Pretty close assumption to say the least... pretty close... I mean colby stuck with Paddy type dogs and OF went OFRN and people love their reds. There are those Tudors ****** fans and Eli fans who love black dogs.. ... pretty fair assessment indeed.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Goemon said:


> You must be of the new school....
> It's really simple. Blue dogs are not game...they are show stock. Period.
> Put them in the [], they will prove to be curs. They are junk for [] dogs.
> *That is why, even in countries where fighting is legal, blues are never used.*
> The fighting blues have been extinct for over 100 years.......................
> And Floyds dogs are not blue.
> I invited an old timer on here, who matched dogs before 1976, and he said:
> "These new kids don't know a thing about these dogs...and they won't listen to the truth.
> Besides, what the [email protected]@k do I know about blues!?"


i coulda sworn that there is a south american country that has proven blue dogs to this day. i will try to find the kennel name.

but i have a question. theoretically speaking... if u were to have a game dog that threw a litter containing a blue dog (since blue is a dilute of black), would u consider it a cur and its black or bucksin siblings not simply based on color? to me that would be like calling a OFRN dog game before its even been []'d.

im just genuinely curious why u are so adamant that ALL blue dogs are curs. and mind u im not asking this simply because my boy is blue. Ive said this before, Odin is a mutt and not an APBT.

EDIT: this is one of the blue dogs from the kennel i am thinking of http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=231848
they are from Brazil and i think its Bellon Club or something like that. mind u i am a bit of newb to the "game dog" aspect.


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## doughboi

Chimera Kennels said:


> Interesting. Someone relisted her pedigree and while I am still listed as her owner, the link above doesn't show her offspring. Here is her original pedigree...with offspring listed.
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [51991] :: CHIMERA'S SNAPS
> 
> I had no idea you all were talking about Snaps before. She was a very tough girl. We bred her a few times and then sold her to a guy up in Indiana. Here is her old page on our website... Snaps - Chimera Kennels
> 
> Here are some more pictures of her...with my daughter Courtney...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We bred her to our boy, Sorrells' Captain Skip...
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [216818] :: BERT SORRELLS CAPTAIN SKIP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That breeding produced the offspring below...
> 
> Chimera's Chief... ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [277187] :: CHIMERA'S CHIEF
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Chimera's Hurricane (aka "Cain")... ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175033] :: CHIMERA'S HURRICANE (CAIN)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Chimera's Pac-Man... ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [212057] :: CHIMERA'S PAC-MAN
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> Chimera's Phoenix...


You have some incredible looking dogs.Are they amstaffs one look that way and the other dog look APBT


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## Goemon

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> but i have a question. theoretically speaking... if u were to have a game dog that threw a litter containing a blue dog (since blue is a dilute of black), would u consider it a cur and its black or bucksin siblings not simply based on color? to me that would be like calling a OFRN dog game before its even been []'d.
> 
> im just genuinely curious why u are so adamant that ALL blue dogs are curs. and mind u im not asking this simply because my boy is blue. Ive said this before, Odin is a mutt and not an APBT.
> 
> EDIT: this is one of the blue dogs from the kennel i am thinking of ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [231848] :: BELLON CLUB'S SOGA
> they are from Brazil and i think its Bellon Club or something like that. mind u i am a bit of newb to the "game dog" aspect.


I do have game dogs, but they are OFRN. So if a blue popped out I would be furious! LOL...
But seriously, that would tell me my stock isn't pure. Blue is not ApBT, in the first place.
One reason they are not [] dogs is because they have AST build, thick.
This gives them limitations the real ApBT never has. From movement, to breathing, to speed, to agility, to stamina, to name a few.
There was once a fighting breed known as the Blue Pauls, a large game fighting dog.
These are extinct...they will never be resurrected.

As for why I always call them curs, it isn't that I dislike them, as dogs...
It is because they are the number one color of choice for neophytes and peddlers.
They tend to have a high % of human aggression, and an inability to produce europhysms (I can't spell it) to reduce pain.
Aggression is no indicator of gameness. 
Look at shelters...blues are the number one color there as well.

Now, lets look at the AKC crowd. They hate the OFRN dogs with a passion. 
I have heard the match in 1936 at the Oklahoma convention between Searcy Jeff (OFRN, old Lightner blood) and Colorado Imp II (blue/black, new Lightner blood) was called the battle between the red and the blue.
It was the last official match I hear of with a blue dog, which lost to the OFRN strain.
This is why the blue lovers of the old school always hated the red dogs, to my knowledge.

Again, I do not hate them as dogs, but I hate hearing people call them game, when they aren't even ApBT's. 
They are AST's. And remember, only selected ApBT's were used in creating the AST. From a limited circle....

As for my preference for OFRN, although I do like the colors, they are NEVER bred for colors, and that is NOT why I choose them.
When bred to each other that is all they can produce, red/red nose. (Buckskin was a color now called silver red in the OFRN circles)
If the blues were able to produce dogs of this caliber, I guess I would go blue.
Another thing: blue dogs have numerous health problems. How could they even survive as [] dogs with these issues?
Bad breeding produces more bad breeding.

Concerning the dog you posted, who do they match against down there, if at all?
If it is blue on blue, that is not a true guage to measure quality by.
Dogs should never be tested against their own family, but quality opponents with a proven record.


----------



## KMdogs

"Blue" was culled and considered cur after it was proven to be a cur.. I have never seen a "blue" dog possess equal ability in the field. (catch work) I have also seen plenty of evidence in the "books" as well as discussions with those whom were around when it was legal and all points to the same answers.

Finding a "blue" dog today that has any amount of "real" drive and performance is quite rare but there are a few out there.. However you take one those "blues" no matter how well bred and pair them up against a buckskin, black, brindle, what have you and give them a real test of ability, 9.5 times out of ten there is no comparison..

Seen them cur out against boars faster than released, seen them start off strong but run cold quickly.. A significant inconsistency in the mind and i can understand without a questioning why you rarely heard of a dog men taking that risk..

Theres also the discussion that of these select few "blue" game dogs, how many were truly tested and matched against fair challengers.. In other words, the other side wasn't exactly a Pit Dog of significant strengths.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Goemon said:


> As for why I always call them curs, it isn't that I dislike them, as dogs...
> It is because they are the number one color of choice for neophytes and peddlers.
> They tend to have a high % of human aggression, and an inability to produce europhysms (I can't spell it) to reduce pain.
> Aggression is no indicator of gameness.
> Look at shelters...blues are the number one color there as well.
> 
> Concerning the dog you posted, who do they match against down there, if at all?
> If it is blue on blue, that is not a true guage to measure quality by.
> Dogs should never be tested against their own family, but quality opponents with a proven record.


i still think its funny...."color doesnt matter as long as its not blue!!!" such a hypocritical statement IMO.

directed at the red part. i can agree that there are a lot of blue dogs in the shelters but i would not say its cuz of the quality of the dog itself. i think thats more cuz of idiots desire for the "rare" color and the over breeding of blue on blue. and the high % of HA bothers me because again.... BYB. they dont know what the hell they are doin when it comes to breeding and they dont cull when they are supposed to. but a well bred blue would be a different thing all together.

now for the blue part. now for the club bellon dog. i cant find much else on the dogs i would suspect thats cuz its safer to not have it on the internet... but i do know that they have dogs of all colors. so its safe to say its been []'d against other colors.

and note to ALL. i am not one for fighting dogs, but i am genuinely interested in [] dogs and all that surrounds them. i like warrior dogs


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## KMdogs

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> i still think its funny...."color doesnt matter as long as its not blue!!!" such a hypocritical statement IMO.
> 
> directed at the red part. i can agree that there are a lot of blue dogs in the shelters but i would not say its cuz of the quality of the dog itself. i think thats more cuz of idiots desire for the "rare" color and the over breeding of blue on blue. and the high % of HA bothers me because again.... BYB. they dont know what the hell they are doin when it comes to breeding and they dont cull when they are supposed to. but a well bred blue would be a different thing all together.
> 
> now for the blue part. now for the club bellon dog. i cant find much else on the dogs i would suspect thats cuz its safer to not have it on the internet... but i do know that they have dogs of all colors. so its safe to say its been []'d against other colors.
> 
> and note to ALL. i am not one for fighting dogs, but i am genuinely interested in [] dogs and all that surrounds them. i like warrior dogs


Color doesn't matter.. However when you have a particular genetic disposition that follows a high risk of Cur, you tend to stay away from it if you are breeding APBTs..

You don't perfect an animal by keeping poor genes in the pool for the whim and off chance it may produce a dog per function for every "x" amount of culled.


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon

KMdogs said:


> Color doesn't matter.. However when you have a particular genetic disposition that follows a high risk of Cur, you tend to stay away from it if you are breeding APBTs..


fair enough but i am having a hard time believing that blue genetically means cur. i have heard a lot of stories about non blue curs becoming great producers and game dogs throwing curs. but yet then u wanna say that because the blue dog that was []'d was a cur that it wont produce game, that it runs in the gene that makes it blue.... please dont think i am arguing, im not. im just tryin to wrap some logic around it. it all sounds like superstition to me.


----------



## Black Rabbit

Ok I just want to post a few pics here so some can see what Stan was saying about "slate blue" or seal that has a blue cast as well. It is a very odd color and I've only seen one other APBT that was this washed out and that's Franzi's Sky. I think Sky is actually a bit lighter than D even. Any who here's a few pics.

Just about every time I post this pic in one of my FB groups people comment: Nice blue dog 









Here you can see a little more of his seal tones in the light but the blue cast still appears









Lol he looks blue with a black head XD









This one he just looks really odd and very light









But this is not blue, and he only looks like that in certain lighting. He normally looks like this 









When standing next to a dog that's truly blue the difference is obvious










It's a very odd color and I can see why they can be mistaken for truly blue dogs.


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon

kg420 said:


> When standing next to a dog that's truly blue the difference is obvious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a very odd color and I can see why they can be mistaken for truly blue dogs.


awww Bossman!!!! i should check up on him....

but to prove ur point about how blue Boss (dor on the right of Dosia) heres a few more pics next to Odin, my blue boy.

Odin, my fathead on the left.









and this one in the shade is weird to me, Odin looks soooo dark. but yeah just examples of "blues".


----------



## MSK

Gah! these kind of posts are annoying as shit! All Know-it-alls no complete and utter proof because it is not. EVERYTHING you know about a specific color or whatever it is, is hear say unless you have handled and performed in Illegal acts with that specific color. No one can honestly say they have all the undoubtedly correct answers. WHY??? AGAIN for the hundredth time its is 2013 not 1813 or even 1913. Doesn't matter whats written down always because they will only give their own opinion. Yes you can take it as a whole but, still any whispers of an epidemic of curs will shut down any possibility of that trait, color, etc. will never see the light of day. So you can talk all day about this was said in history or you had this or that. But, you have not seen EVERY dog so you cannot make a broad assumption like that based on the measly number of dogs you have seen compared to the over all numbers through the years that has been produced. Just saying!


----------



## Black Rabbit

I just figured I throw out some examples of what Stan said how slate blue dogs are not blue dogs  someone asked a few pages back I think, how is blue not blue? 
Yea Boss had a more silver look to him. Very very pretty.


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon

MSK said:


> So you can talk all day about this was said in history or you had this or that. But, you have not seen EVERY dog so you cannot make a broad assumption like that based on the measly number of dogs you have seen compared to the over all numbers through the years that has been produced. Just saying!


this is kinda what i was gettin at. with my experience in the auto industry i have adopted a sayin that seems to fit for bulldogs too. "u cant say never or always unless want to be proven wrong."


----------



## zohawn

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> this is kinda what i was gettin at. with my experience in the auto industry i have adopted a sayin that seems to fit for bulldogs too. "u cant say never or always unless want to be proven wrong."


i think hes saying that because goem's dogs have been genetically stacked to be game.

there could possibly be blue dogs that are game but the genetics of it and w/e it produces will be a few 100 years behind his dogs.


----------



## Goemon

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> i still think its funny...."color doesnt matter as long as its not blue!!!" such a hypocritical statement IMO.
> 
> directed at the red part. i can agree that there are a lot of blue dogs in the shelters but i would not say its cuz of the quality of the dog itself. i think thats more cuz of idiots desire for the "rare" color and the over breeding of blue on blue. and the high % of HA bothers me because again.... BYB. they dont know what the hell they are doin when it comes to breeding and they dont cull when they are supposed to. but a well bred blue would be a different thing all together.
> 
> now for the blue part. now for the club bellon dog. i cant find much else on the dogs i would suspect thats cuz its safer to not have it on the internet... but i do know that they have dogs of all colors. so its safe to say its been []'d against other colors.
> 
> and note to ALL. i am not one for fighting dogs, but i am genuinely interested in [] dogs and all that surrounds them. i like warrior dogs


Hypocritical? Have you been missing all the points KM and I have both pointed out?

You just said it....the shelters are overcrowded with blues because of the idiots and BYB's.
As I have stated many times, these people shouldn't have dogs at all.
Most of these breeders are dead beat parents out for a quick buck.
And the "street pits" or ghetto pits are all junk as well.
You will NEVER find a TOP QUALITY Pit Dog in a shelter, because a) they are not sold to the general public (the way it should be!), b) those that have them can afford them (way it should be!),
c)those who have them can handle them(way it should be!), d)those that breed them NEVER breed to an untrusted dog (GOLDEN RULE!), regardless of blood.

*My defition of a CUR is: 1)ANY dog not an ApBT. 2)Any ApBT that quits, or is cold.

My definition of GAMENESS is: A bulldog that is getting whipped by a much larger one, who is injured, yet when it is time to scratch is screaming to get at the other dog, and actually thinks it was winning the battle the entire time! He does not back off, nor slow down, but will finish its course of action, which is to kill the other dog. *

AND *Once gameness is lost it can never be reclaimed!*
Bottom line is this: BLUES are NOT AMERICAN (PIT) BULL TERRIERS! THUS THEY ARE CURS!
THEY HAVE A POOR HEATH RECORD, NO COMBAT RECORD IN THE BOOKS, AND ARE THE NEWBIES AND STREET PUNKS VERSION OF A [] DOG.

Okay, big question/example:
Would anyone who believes (snicker!) that a BLUE dog is GAME, PUT MONEY where their mouth is, AGAINST A PROVEN BLOODLINE OF GAME [] DOGS??????
I GUARANTEE a BLUE dog would be dead in under 15 minutes!!!
And I would put my money where my mouth is!!!!!!!!!

So if a BLUE is born, I know they are garbage for a [] dog, because there is nothing good that comes from a blue for [] dog purposes. 
Call it what you will, but when I see a red light, or danger sign, I don't need to question why.oke:

Oh, BTW, Brazil is among the poorest countries in the world, and those people are very poor.
I wouldn't pay a dime for ANY dog from there. I wouldn't take any for a "test" dog for fear of bringing diseases around my champion dogs/pups!!!

And if blues haven't proven themselves by now (even if they were ApBT's), they never will....cold fact of life...


----------



## zohawn

Goemon said:


> Hypocritical? Have you been missing all the points KM and I have both pointed out?
> 
> You just said it....the shelters are overcrowded with blues because of the idiots and BYB's.
> As I have stated many times, these people shouldn't have dogs at all.
> Most of these breeders are dead beat parents out for a quick buck.
> And the "street pits" or ghetto pits are all junk as well.
> You will NEVER find a TOP QUALITY Pit Dog in a shelter, because a) they are not sold to the general public (the way it should be!), b) those that have them can afford them (way it should be!),
> c)those who have them can handle them(way it should be!), d)those that breed them NEVER breed to an untrusted dog (GOLDEN RULE!), regardless of blood.
> 
> *My defition of a CUR is: 1)ANY dog not an ApBT. 2)Any ApBT that quits, or is cold.
> 
> My definition of GAMENESS is: A bulldog that is getting whipped by a much larger one, who is injured, yet when it is time to scratch is screaming to get at the other dog, and actually thinks it was winning the battle the entire time! He does not back off, nor slow down, but will finish its course of action, which is to kill the other dog. *
> 
> AND *Once gameness is lost it can never be reclaimed!*
> Bottom line is this: BLUES are NOT AMERICAN (PIT) BULL TERRIERS! THUS THEY ARE CURS!
> THEY HAVE A POOR HEATH RECORD, NO COMBAT RECORD IN THE BOOKS, AND ARE THE NEWBIES AND STREET PUNKS VERSION OF A [] DOG.
> 
> Okay, big question/example:
> Would anyone who believes (snicker!) that a BLUE dog is GAME, PUT MONEY where their mouth is, AGAINST A PROVEN BLOODLINE OF GAME [] DOGS??????
> I GUARANTEE a BLUE dog would be dead in under 15 minutes!!!
> And I would put my money where my mouth is!!!!!!!!!
> 
> So if a BLUE is born, I know they are garbage for a [] dog, because there is nothing good that comes from a blue for [] dog purposes.
> Call it what you will, but when I see a red light, or danger sign, I don't need to question why.oke:
> 
> Oh, BTW, Brazil is among the poorest countries in the world, and those people are very poor.
> I wouldn't pay a dime for ANY dog from there. I wouldn't take any for a "test" dog for fear of bringing diseases around my champion dogs/pups!!!
> 
> And if blues haven't proven themselves by now (even if they were ApBT's), they never will....cold fact of life...


it depends on what you view an apbt as, or at least the name apbt. is it a title won? if yes than even bird dogs can be apbt (and in the past a few bird dogs were proven game).

my stance on it is ...why bother? the genetic stacking of whats around today is a years and years ahead of the blue dogs, or honestly anything not game bred. trying to find a blue game dog is really a waste of time, theres plenty of lines that have been proven and genetically stacked game.

why try and sup up a pinto when you already have a porsche?


----------



## Goemon

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> fair enough but i am having a hard time believing that blue genetically means cur. * i have heard a lot of stories about non blue curs becoming great producers* and game dogs throwing curs. but yet then u wanna say that because the blue dog that was []'d was a cur that it wont produce game, that it runs in the gene that makes it blue.... please dont think i am arguing, im not. im just tryin to wrap some logic around it. it all sounds like superstition to me.


You said earlier you were sort of new to game dogs....

That is why what you HEARD is *just stories*...:stick:
You have never been around true game dogs, nor know those who are in their third or fourth generations with these dogs...oke:

None of the men I know, some in their 80's now, have EVER mentioned "Blue" without hysterical laughter at the even report of a blue dog matching!!!:roll:

I'll use the example of how "logic" has made a fool of one in the past who tried to outsmart Pit Dogs, by Richard Stratton, from a chapter called The Pretenders.:
The Swinford Bandogge

In this breeds case, there was no attemp to claim an ancient origin. The breed was started bt a vet named Swinford. It was a perfectly legitimate enterprise. People are always trying to improve upon what we have. Swinford was aware that the ApBT was the supreme fighting dog, so he started to make a better one. His theory, which certainly had its merits, was that if he could increase the size greatly, he would succeed. Not having the patience to use selective breeding, he bred a Neo Mastiff bitch to a good ApBT male and then proceeded, to try and develop a separate breed by selective breeding for size and gameness.
After ten years of this selective breeding, ApBT owners were challenged. One of them came up with a sixty-pound dog to go against one of the 130-pound behemoths, and the little dog chased the bigger one out of the pit at the 12 minute mark. 


Ya can't breed a strain of dog without gameness to match against dogs of gameness. 
As I said, even the registered blues are no longer pure...they were crossed. Paper hung.
And most I have seen are over 75#, the limit for dogs, conformationally, of this breed.


----------



## Goemon

MSK said:


> Gah! these kind of posts are annoying as shit! All Know-it-alls no complete and utter proof because it is not. EVERYTHING you know about a specific color or whatever it is, is hear say unless you have handled and performed in Illegal acts with that specific color. No one can honestly say they have all the undoubtedly correct answers. WHY??? AGAIN for the hundredth time its is 2013 not 1813 or even 1913. Doesn't matter whats written down always because they will only give their own opinion. Yes you can take it as a whole but, still any whispers of an epidemic of curs will shut down any possibility of that trait, color, etc. will never see the light of day. So you can talk all day about this was said in history or you had this or that. But, you have not seen EVERY dog so you cannot make a broad assumption like that based on the measly number of dogs you have seen compared to the over all numbers through the years that has been produced. Just saying!


If ya don't like it...keep on going then, Mrs. B! LMAO:stick:


----------



## zohawn

Goemon said:


> If ya don't like it...keep on going then, Mrs. B! LMAO:stick:


msk made me chuckle.

"unless you have handled and performed in Illegal acts"

^ thats why youll never get the whole truth on an internet forum.


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon

U know u make it hard to have a friendly debate when u talk down to me like u do. I've heard people call Jeep a cur cuz he never matched up against a real game dog but I'm pretty sure he got his ROM. 

Ur right in one thing, I'm young (ish) and I haven't been there first hand. But if I had let that stop me in the past I wouldn't be where I am today. 

Oh and ur not lookin very hard if uve only seen blue dogs over 65# cuz on the first page of this thread there are several blue dogs (including Monsoon) who are under 50# and a newer daughter off of his line is blue and barely 30#s. Maybe u just don't see em cuz they're not ur "style".


----------



## American_Pit13

Goemon said:


> I do have game dogs, but they are OFRN. So if a blue popped out I would be furious! LOL...
> But seriously, that would tell me my stock isn't pure. Blue is not ApBT, in the first place.


Blue is from black, not from another bred. There are blue APBTs

This is exactly what I was talking about how the men would look at the the dogs as culls to begin with.


----------



## PatienceFlame

THE WALKING THREAD returns with a vengeance!


----------



## Goemon

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> U know u make it hard to have a friendly debate when u talk down to me like u do. I've heard people call Jeep a cur cuz he never matched up against a real game dog but I'm pretty sure he got his ROM.
> 
> Ur right in one thing, I'm young (ish) and I haven't been there first hand. But if I had let that stop me in the past I wouldn't be where I am today.
> 
> Oh and ur not lookin very hard if uve only seen blue dogs over 65# cuz on the first page of this thread there are several blue dogs (including Monsoon) who are under 50# and a newer daughter off of his line is blue and barely 30#s. Maybe u just don't see em cuz they're not ur "style".


Not trying to make it hard...just trying to be as clear as possible and not step over the line on proving my point over the internet.
Plus trying to erase the "hypocrite" label that was put on me.

People are free to have their own opinions...but whoever has it show me a list of CH and GR CH blue dogs..from the [].

LOL, I heard the same about Jeep myself. IMO he was just overrated....but he was not open to the world.
Did produce some good offspring however.
Had he met GR CH Agnus he would have been toast.
Two matches between them were called off, because Agnus escaped during his keep both times....
To go fight his Ch sister, Ruby, LOL....
Makes some of us wonder if somebody let him loose to prevent those fights from happening.

But for the record, if the law were erased for one weekend, I would face any of my grown dogs against any blue, any size, any minute. 
And if a single dog of mine lost to a blue, I would cull my whole damn yard. 
But being in law enforcement. that would be a bad move on my part, to try and prove what I already know.:hammer:


----------



## MSK

You guys make me laugh you may think I am a retard, green, whatever. But the truth of the matter is there is no way to be completely right or completely wrong on these types of matters. All history is skewed by man because not all stories will be to the letter there will be either exaggerations or left out information. No matter whom it is or where the stories come from. This is one of those debates as unknown as the real creation of man. There will never be a correct answer.


----------



## Goemon

American_Pit13 said:


> Blue is from black, not from another bred. There are blue APBTs
> 
> This is exactly what I was talking about how the men would look at the the dogs as culls to begin with.


I disagree...IMO blues are nothing but AST's, show/pet stock. Nothing more.

Two reds will NEVER throw a black or a blue.....
Two blues will never throw anything but a blue........
Two blacks may throw a red.....and/or a blue...
Because once the genes of red or blue are in a black nose dog, they are in em forever.
All modern fighting dogs have OFRN in them. 
This is not the case with the blues....and no dogman in the world would corrupt his blood with a blue....


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Goemon said:


> Not trying to make it hard...just trying to be as clear as possible and not step over the line on proving my point over the internet.
> Plus trying to erase the "hypocrite" label that was put on me.
> 
> People are free to have their own opinions...but whoever has it show me a list of CH and GR CH blue dogs..from the [].
> 
> LOL, I heard the same about Jeep myself. IMO he was just overrated....but he was not open to the world.
> Did produce some good offspring however.
> Had he met GR CH Agnus he would have been toast.
> Two matches between them were called off, because Agnus escaped during his keep both times....
> To go fight his Ch sister, Ruby, LOL....
> Makes some of us wonder if somebody let him loose to prevent those fights from happening.
> 
> But for the record, if the law were erased for one weekend, I would face any of my grown dogs against any blue, any size, any minute.
> And if a single dog of mine lost to a blue, I would cull my whole damn yard.
> But being in law enforcement. that would be a bad move on my part, to try and prove what I already know.:hammer:


I just wanted to say that I wasn't calling u a hypocrit. I was just saying the phrase sounded a lil ironic. Like when I joke to a customer they can have any color all weather floormats as long as their black (only color they come in).

And its safe to say like MSK said, debating over something that we can't prove is hard to do. And I reckon if I found a CH blue [] dog u still wouldn't accept it.

Oh I almost forgot, who was the other dog Jeep almost faced that woulda beat him. It was to be his 4th fight but I heard something happened to that dog too and that's how he ended up fightin Homer.


----------



## Firehazard

KMdogs said:


> "Blue" was culled and considered cur after it was proven to be a cur.. I have never seen a "blue" dog possess equal ability in the field. (catch work) I have also seen plenty of evidence in the "books" as well as discussions with those whom were around when it was legal and all points to the same answers.
> 
> Finding a "blue" dog today that has any amount of "real" drive and performance is quite rare but there are a few out there.. However you take one those "blues" no matter how well bred and pair them up against a buckskin, black, brindle, what have you and give them a real test of ability, 9.5 times out of ten there is no comparison..
> 
> Seen them cur out against boars faster than released, seen them start off strong but run cold quickly.. A significant inconsistency in the mind and i can understand without a questioning why you rarely heard of a dog men taking that risk..
> 
> Theres also the discussion that of these select few "blue" game dogs, how many were truly tested and matched against fair challengers.. In other words, the other side wasn't exactly a Pit Dog of significant strengths.


I agree and Goeman, I agree with a statement you just said ^^^ .. .. My statement following AmericanPit13 basically is saying it is evident dogmen did pick and keep certain colors of their strain over others... Cant deny that even though they knew as we know color is not important (we all seen em pick em or leave em becaus of color), COLOR is important because its of the SKIN that means its an ORGAN that also means other organs like the BRAIN are going to carry traits associated with that SKIN or HAIR type..  As far as winning.. if it won twice back in the day it got registered as an APBT.. well I've seen some rough blue curs that could clear that bar before falling off...... If color is NOT important than you tell me why so many dog men will cull blue and solid white APBTs ??? You all know why and there is statistical science to back it up by way of dogman and [] dog history and we know that too... Thats where I leave it...........

If it can be said: it has been said....... IF it can be done.. it has been done....


----------



## American_Pit13

Goemon said:


> I disagree...IMO blues are nothing but AST's, show/pet stock. Nothing more.
> 
> Two reds will NEVER throw a black or a blue.....
> Two blues will never throw anything but a blue........
> Two blacks may throw a red.....and/or a blue...
> Because once the genes of red or blue are in a black nose dog, they are in em forever.
> All modern fighting dogs have OFRN in them.
> This is not the case with the blues....and no dogman in the world would corrupt his blood with a blue....


I don't think you understand genetics. Blue is a dilute of black, you don't get blue genes into black dogs, that's not how it works. Your welcome to have that as your opinion but genetics just don't work that way.

Two reds throw red for the same reason two blues throw blue. Recessive genes. Actually 2 blues can throw black so it's not true they will never throw anything else.

As I said before this is why blue has never had a chance to be proven is due to dog men without a concept of how genetics work. Being blue doesn't make the dog any less. Color doesn't change anything but color!

Blue doesn't corrupt anything and it especially isn't going to corrupt a dominate color (black) when it is a recessive gene! lmao

IF color made such a difference of the over all dogs as you guys think then would it not go for other colors. If blues are curs then what color produced the best dogs? Was it black? Red? Fawn? If blue makes such a difference then other colors would have to make a difference in the dog to. Why would dogmen breed any other color than the color that produced the "game gene" lmao. There is no way that blue makes tainted genes, yet all the other colors didn't change the dogs and were equal....... Color is color and nothing more.


----------



## zohawn

American_Pit13 said:


> I don't think you understand genetics. Blue is a dilute of black, you don't get blue genes into black dogs, that's not how it works. Your welcome to have that as your opinion but genetics just don't work that way.
> 
> Two reds throw red for the same reason two blues throw blue. Recessive genes. *Actually 2 blues can throw black so it's not true they will never throw anything else.
> *
> 
> As I said before this is why blue has never had a chance to be proven is due to dog men without a concept of how genetics work. Being blue doesn't make the dog any less. Color doesn't change anything but color!
> 
> Blue doesn't corrupt anything and it especially isn't going to corrupt a dominate color (black) when it is a recessive gene! lmao
> 
> IF color made such a difference of the over all dogs as you guys think then would it not go for other colors. If blues are curs then what color produced the best dogs? Was it black? Red? Fawn? If blue makes such a difference then other colors would have to make a difference in the dog to. Why would dogmen breed any other color than the color that produced the "game gene" lmao. There is no way that blue makes tainted genes, yet all the other colors didn't change the dogs and were equal....... Color is color and nothing more.


i thought 2 recessives threw a recessive no matter what


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon

American_Pit13 said:


> I don't think you understand genetics. Blue is a dilute of black, you don't get blue genes into black dogs, that's not how it works. Your welcome to have that as your opinion but genetics just don't work that way.
> 
> Two reds throw red for the same reason two blues throw blue. Recessive genes. Actually 2 blues can throw black so it's not true they will never throw anything else.
> 
> As I said before this is why blue has never had a chance to be proven is due to dog men without a concept of how genetics work. Being blue doesn't make the dog any less. Color doesn't change anything but color!
> 
> Blue doesn't corrupt anything and it especially isn't going to corrupt a dominate color (black) when it is a recessive gene! lmao
> 
> IF color made such a difference of the over all dogs as you guys think then would it not go for other colors. If blues are curs then what color produced the best dogs? Was it black? Red? Fawn? If blue makes such a difference then other colors would have to make a difference in the dog to. Why would dogmen breed any other color than the color that produced the "game gene" lmao. There is no way that blue makes tainted genes, yet all the other colors didn't change the dogs and were equal....... Color is color and nothing more.


:goodpost:


----------



## American_Pit13

zohawn said:


> i thought 2 recessives threw a recessive no matter what


They do. I was mistaken. I went back and looked at the litter and it is not a black pup I was remembering, it was just dark blue  I just came back to fix that statement. The rest of my post still stands regardless. Blue fawn is the color blues can throw.

From the ADBA concerning the color 
http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=101

The D Locus pair is the loci that modifies the dark Pigment pattern to blue with the homozygous recessive (dd) alleles. Because kennels are selecting blue individuals which are homozygous recessive (dd) the only allele that a blue parent can give to their offspring is the recessive (b) allele. Breeding two blues together doubles up the recessive trait to (dd) which modifies the dominant (As) allele to blue. If a resulting offspring happens to get the (Ay) allele from one of its parents, then the (dd) will modify this color to a fawn/bluies. If breeders are breeding dogs for the blue color, since the gene is homozygous recessive, 100% of their offspring will be (dd) and depending on the (As) or (Ay) allele on the Locus A series will have blue or fawn/bluies pups.

Each offspring inherits one half of their genetic make-up from their sire and one half from their dam. All members of the genus canis, to which all dog breeds belong have 78 chromosomes. They appear in pairs and consist of chains of DNA material. Small sections of these DNA chains make up genes, the genetic code for the production of certain proteins in the individual dog. The genetic material for particular traits in the dog are located in certain regions on the chromosomes called loci (plural) or locus (singular). The different assortment of genes that are possible are a particular locus are called alleles. In many different breeds, through selective breeding, only one allele is found at a particular loci, leading to all members of the breed having the same trait. This is why purebred dogs will breed true, for those characteristics that distinguish one breed from another. Alleles exhibit a dominance relationship when paired with a different allele. When the alleles are different at the same loci, they are said to be heterozygous. When the alleles are alike at the same loci, they are said to be homozygous. Dependent upon how many different alleles are possible there are multiple combinations of dominance. The term epistatic (above), means more dominant and hypostatic (below) means less dominant. Geneticists use an upper case letter: example (A), to signal a dominant allele, and a lower case letter: example (a) to denote a recessive allele.

The study of color genetic within a breed can be complex, as there are nine different locations (loci) on the chromosomes that effect the final color that you see in your dog. At each loci are two or more alleles, or gene choices, that interact according to their dominance-recessive relationships. At loci that have more than two alleles, the relative dominance in the series have been listed in order of their dominance.

Genetic research into the genotypes of coat color has not been done with UKC or ADBA registered APBT. The reason is this: throughout the history of our breed, dogs have not been bred for color. *All colors were considered equal.** An individual dog was selected as breeding stock based upon a multitude of factors, none of them being color. *The canine genetic research into the genotype of color has been done solely in AKC registered breeds. One of the breeds that has been studied is the American Staffordshire Terrier. As a matter of review, it is important to understand that every dog accepted into the AKC registry as an American Staffordshire Terrier was also registered with the UKC or ADBA as an American Pit Bull Terrier. The year was 1936, and the popularity of the Our Gang Comedy and show's mascot, Petey, prompted the AKC to open their stud book to the breed as long as the breed name could be changed to the American Staffordshire Terrier. No other breed has been crossed into the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier lines, so we are justified in examining the results of this research and applying it to our ADBA registered dogs. The researched results of the color genotypes possible in our breed, at the nine loci responsible for the determination of color are presented below:

As/Ay/at, B/b, C, D/d, E/Ebr/e, g, m, S/si/sp/sw, t


----------



## Odin`s_BlueDragon

American_Pit13 said:


> They do. I was mistaken. I went back and looked at the litter and it is not a black pup I was remembering, it was just dark blue  i just came back to fix that statement. The rest of my post still stands regardless.


What color is Spocks dam. I know his sire is blue. Or better yet who is Spock's dam?


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## American_Pit13

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> What color is Spocks dam. I know his sire is blue. Or better yet who is Spock's dam?


Siren lol. But that is not blue to blue. I avoid blue as you know, I am not fond of the color myself. However even with me not liking the color, I know that color doesn't change the dog for anything more than color.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

American_Pit13 said:


> Siren lol. But that is not blue to blue. I avoid blue as you know, I am not fond of the color myself. However even with me not liking the color, I know that color doesn't change the dog for anything more than color.


Oh duh! No wonder he's a mad dog! Screamin all the time... lol

I kept think Dixie but that's where Typhoon came from and I think that litter was all blue right?


----------



## American_Pit13

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> Oh duh! No wonder he's a mad dog! Screamin all the time... lol
> 
> I kept think Dixie but that's where Typhoon came from and I think that litter was all blue right?


I don't know. I think Tempest was the only pup and same with Typhoon who is a monsoon daughter as well. I am pretty sure they were the only pups out of those litters, but you would have to clarify with Lisa.

I think you are thinking of Rain who is out of 2 blue dogs and the whole litter was blue of course.

Also everyone completely ignored this blue dog Odin posted.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=231848

Where is the staff blood in that ped?


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## Firehazard

NO.. thats the one dog that has been well displayed here on GPB.. I havent forgottten.. This is also the blue dog proven game that Southern kennels bred their JRB stuff into.. Southern kennels is rebuilding from scratch. NOW anyone who gets a JRB down from Southern and it has Bellons soga in it... well thats tainted genes and WATCH OUT them dead game RARE blue JRB dogs will be all over before you know it. Km said it best, and Americanpit13 your original thought simply on that dispite function over ability many dogmen fancied and kept particular colors over the other and almost all of them culled a solid white dog or blue dog from their program. ...... 

Stu Flower.. ?? is where the blue mutation is coming from... Check some of them alligator dogs the mayday and limey and early alligator followers used  they carried the same pigment until dominated by other alligator blood. Stu Flower was a blend of OF and COLBY .. which produced OFRN and also produced dogs that were called blue by some owners. Shuffle through all the peds of the crosses I've seen a few in the 50s and previous, calling their dogs blue, but only that ONE owner .. LOL My point is Stu Flower is a dog that was in the generation that he could have easily been bred as a staff just as tacoma was ..  all that heavy stu flower and merged with boudreaux.. .. going to push that blue mutation right out. especially when soga is built on Stu Flower and Cottons Bullet exclusively; and how they placed the offspring to produce the mutation.. OR.. its a rung dog. I believe back when Sadie and I had it out on the blue as I believe it now.. Southern tainted their stock.. and they knew it.. in hindsite. Good for show goers and fancy pants competitors.. not so good for the family, strain, breeder of solid traits without undesirable traits.. 

I've had a blue boudreaux dog.. I wont have another.


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## zohawn

how do recessive genes even start if all of our dogs came from 1 dog birthed by something that wasnt a dog?


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## Goemon

American_Pit13 said:


> I don't think you understand genetics. Blue is a dilute of black, you don't get blue genes into black dogs, that's not how it works. Your welcome to have that as your opinion but genetics just don't work that way.
> 
> Two reds throw red for the same reason two blues throw blue. Recessive genes. Actually 2 blues can throw black so it's not true they will never throw anything else.
> 
> As I said before this is why blue has never had a chance to be proven is due to dog men without a concept of how genetics work. Being blue doesn't make the dog any less. Color doesn't change anything but color!
> 
> Blue doesn't corrupt anything and it especially isn't going to corrupt a dominate color (black) when it is a recessive gene! lmao
> 
> IF color made such a difference of the over all dogs as you guys think then would it not go for other colors. If blues are curs then what color produced the best dogs? Was it black? Red? Fawn? If blue makes such a difference then other colors would have to make a difference in the dog to. Why would dogmen breed any other color than the color that produced the "game gene" lmao. There is no way that blue makes tainted genes, yet all the other colors didn't change the dogs and were equal....... Color is color and nothing more.


You, and any others can think whatever you want, whether i understand genetics or not.
Makes no difference to me I reckon. 
Just proves the old timers correct, when they say the "haters" (anti-fighters) are like sponges already filled...
(before the 1976 Animal Welfare Act came out, with the lying media who put all the abusive methods in the idiots minds to begin with,
everyone knew what these dogs were for, and nobody had a problem with it!)
They can't absorb anything more than they already have in their heads. 
But NONE OF YOU can prove your theories, or produce better bulldogs than the men who set their conformation by [] standards.

Blue dogs NEVER proved they deserved a chance to have a match...
If they couldn't perform in the [] they were useless for [] dogs!

IMO NO DOG deserves the title of an ApBT if it cannot perform the task they were built for.
"Pit bulls" are just generic dogs, culls of the old school. But they make good pets for people....who couldn't handle a game dog.
They are also, unfortunatly, the cause of the bad reputation for the real ApBT.

As for color, the only color that matters was winning. Well, start naming blue champs.
I don't have OFRN because of their color....but THEIR ABILITY.
As Robert Hemphill called them, "The gamest ever bred!"
They have the blood of the now extinct Irish fighting dog, the Old Family Reds.
That is why they are a separate strain from ALL other ApBT's. Red is just the color that these dogs produce..It was not deliberate.
And real OFRN dogs are line bred...no faults are added, just removed.
Nothing else can be added...or should.

And anyone can take it or leave it, but the only dogs that matter in a pups pedigree is its grand parents and great grandparents.
Nothing a hundred years ago matters in these dogs, lol.
Blue fighting dogs are extinct. If people wanna disagree, well, get a blue and a plane ticket to Japan.
It is NOT ILLEGAL to be an AMERICAN and fight a dog in a dog fighting country,
no matter how much the poor American politicians cry about it...
Take that blue dog and test it! Put your money where your mouth is.
I don't disrespect anyones dogs unless they dis mine.
BUT YES....*BLUE IS LESS, AS IT IS NOT A FIGHTING DOG!!!! They would be nothing but box hoppers!!*

That is all I have to add on this, and I am done wasting my time trying to teach a thing or two.
People wanna think blue dogs are game....LMMFAO!!!....:snap:


----------



## Firehazard

zohawn said:


> how do recessive genes even start if all of our dogs came from 1 dog birthed by something that wasnt a dog?


all dogs are canis lupis.. which means they are sub species... no matter how mutated the genetics wolf will wash them before they wash wolf..

this is why all bulldogs strains and sub strains are all greatly affected by COLBY and OFRN in the same way..


----------



## zohawn

Goemon said:


> You, and any others can think whatever you want, whether i understand genetics or not.
> Makes no difference to me I reckon.
> Just proves the old timers correct, when they say the "haters" (anti-fighters) are like sponges already filled...
> (before the 1976 Animal Welfare Act came out, with the lying media who put all the abusive methods in the idiots minds to begin with,
> everyone knew what these dogs were for, and nobody had a problem with it!)
> They can't absorb anything more than they already have in their heads.
> But NONE OF YOU can prove your theories, or produce better bulldogs than the men who set their conformation by [] standards.
> 
> Blue dogs NEVER proved they deserved a chance to have a match...
> If they couldn't perform in the [] they were useless for [] dogs!
> 
> IMO NO DOG deserves the title of an ApBT if it cannot perform the task they were built for.
> "Pit bulls" are just generic dogs, culls of the old school. But they make good pets for people....who couldn't handle a game dog.
> They are also, unfortunatly, the cause of the bad reputation for the real ApBT.
> 
> As for color, the only color that matters was winning. Well, start naming blue champs.
> I don't have OFRN because of their color....but THEIR ABILITY.
> As Robert Hemphill called them, "The gamest ever bred!"
> They have the blood of the now extinct Irish fighting dog, the Old Family Reds.
> That is why they are a separate strain from ALL other ApBT's. Red is just the color that these dogs produce..It was not deliberate.
> And real OFRN dogs are line bred...no faults are added, just removed.
> Nothing else can be added...or should.
> 
> And anyone can take it or leave it,* but the only dogs that matter in a pups pedigree is its grand parents and great grandparents.*
> Nothing a hundred years ago matters in these dogs, lol.
> Blue fighting dogs are extinct. If people wanna disagree, well, get a blue and a plane ticket to Japan.
> It is NOT ILLEGAL to be an AMERICAN and fight a dog in a dog fighting country,
> no matter how much the poor American politicians cry about it...
> Take that blue dog and test it! Put your money where your mouth is.
> I don't disrespect anyones dogs unless they dis mine.
> BUT YES....*BLUE IS LESS, AS IT IS NOT A FIGHTING DOG!!!! They would be nothing but box hoppers!!*
> 
> That is all I have to add on this, and I am done wasting my time trying to teach a thing or two.
> People wanna think blue dogs are game....LMMFAO!!!....:snap:


what you said here and a few posts ago contradicts itself.

your dogs great grandparents made your current dogs game. what made them game? magic?

saying only the great grandparents matter is ignoring the very foundation your dogs genetically stand on.


----------



## ames

so basically Blue dogs were never given the chance to prove themselves so you think that means they are curs. Whats others were eluding to is what I also question. Saying blue pups are inferior when they were not given the chance because of prejudice on yards not wanting to be associated with "loser blue" dogs seems like BIG jump to conclude they could never have been game...


----------



## zohawn

Firehazard said:


> all dogs are canis lupis.. which means they are sub species... no matter how mutated the genetics wolf will wash them before they wash wolf..
> 
> this is why all bulldogs strains and sub strains are all greatly affected by COLBY and OFRN in the same way..


so the recessive genes were always there then? how did they just pop up?


----------



## KMdogs

ames said:


> so basically Blue dogs were never given the chance to prove themselves so you think that means they are curs. Whats others were eluding to is what I also question. Saying blue pups are inferior when they were not given the chance because of prejudice on yards not wanting to be associated with "loser blue" dogs seems like BIG jump to conclude they could never have been game...


Re read my last two posts here, they WERE given the chance and proven cur..even today under legal activities..


----------



## KMdogs

American_Pit13 said:


> I don't think you understand genetics. Blue is a dilute of black, you don't get blue genes into black dogs, that's not how it works. Your welcome to have that as your opinion but genetics just don't work that way.
> 
> Two reds throw red for the same reason two blues throw blue. Recessive genes. Actually 2 blues can throw black so it's not true they will never throw anything else.
> 
> As I said before this is why blue has never had a chance to be proven is due to dog men without a concept of how genetics work. Being blue doesn't make the dog any less. Color doesn't change anything but color!
> 
> Blue doesn't corrupt anything and it especially isn't going to corrupt a dominate color (black) when it is a recessive gene! lmao
> 
> IF color made such a difference of the over all dogs as you guys think then would it not go for other colors. If blues are curs then what color produced the best dogs? Was it black? Red? Fawn? If blue makes such a difference then other colors would have to make a difference in the dog to. Why would dogmen breed any other color than the color that produced the "game gene" lmao. There is no way that blue makes tainted genes, yet all the other colors didn't change the dogs and were equal....... Color is color and nothing more.


Go out in the field and youll see the difference or ask any person who produces or has a yard of high end Bulldogs why they dont run ''blues''.. It is easy to dismiss somethimg as nothing more than folk lore if youve never went out and explored it.

Also the term ''blue'' is recent


----------



## zohawn

KMdogs said:


> Go out in the field and youll see the difference or ask any person who produces or has a yard of high end Bulldogs why they dont run ''blues''.. It is easy to dismiss somethimg as nothing more than folk lore if youve never went out and explored it.
> 
> Also the term ''blue'' is recent


ive seen blues hold 400lb hogs, just because youve seen cold blue dogs doesnt mean  , honestly. ive seen a black dog cur out on a juvenile pig, does that lower Myles in any way? absolutely not.

ill agree that blues have a higher chance to be cold just because theyre usually bred without any testing but to say ALL blues are bad is wrong. even if i was in the dog game i would give every dog a chance...why not?


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

zohawn said:


> ive seen blues hold 400lb hogs, just because youve seen cold blue dogs doesnt mean  , honestly. ive seen a black dog cur out on a juvenile pig, does that lower Myles in any way? absolutely not.
> 
> ill agree that blues have a higher chance to be cold just because theyre usually bred without any testing *but to say ALL blues are bad is wrong.* even if i was in the dog game i would give every dog a chance...why not?


ha! we agree on something


----------



## American_Pit13

Goemon said:


> You, and any others can think whatever you want, whether i understand genetics or not.
> Makes no difference to me I reckon.
> Just proves the old timers correct, when they say the "haters" (anti-fighters) are like sponges already filled...
> (before the 1976 Animal Welfare Act came out, with the lying media who put all the abusive methods in the idiots minds to begin with,
> everyone knew what these dogs were for, and nobody had a problem with it!)
> They can't absorb anything more than they already have in their heads.
> But NONE OF YOU can prove your theories, or produce better bulldogs than the men who set their conformation by [] standards.
> 
> Blue dogs NEVER proved they deserved a chance to have a match...
> If they couldn't perform in the [] they were useless for [] dogs!
> 
> IMO NO DOG deserves the title of an ApBT if it cannot perform the task they were built for.
> "Pit bulls" are just generic dogs, culls of the old school. But they make good pets for people....who couldn't handle a game dog.
> They are also, unfortunatly, the cause of the bad reputation for the real ApBT.
> 
> As for color, the only color that matters was winning. Well, start naming blue champs.
> I don't have OFRN because of their color....but THEIR ABILITY.
> As Robert Hemphill called them, "The gamest ever bred!"
> They have the blood of the now extinct Irish fighting dog, the Old Family Reds.
> That is why they are a separate strain from ALL other ApBT's. Red is just the color that these dogs produce..It was not deliberate.
> And real OFRN dogs are line bred...no faults are added, just removed.
> Nothing else can be added...or should.
> 
> And anyone can take it or leave it, but the only dogs that matter in a pups pedigree is its grand parents and great grandparents.
> Nothing a hundred years ago matters in these dogs, lol.
> Blue fighting dogs are extinct. If people wanna disagree, well, get a blue and a plane ticket to Japan.
> It is NOT ILLEGAL to be an AMERICAN and fight a dog in a dog fighting country,
> no matter how much the poor American politicians cry about it...
> Take that blue dog and test it! Put your money where your mouth is.
> I don't disrespect anyones dogs unless they dis mine.
> BUT YES....*BLUE IS LESS, AS IT IS NOT A FIGHTING DOG!!!! They would be nothing but box hoppers!!*
> 
> That is all I have to add on this, and I am done wasting my time trying to teach a thing or two.
> People wanna think blue dogs are game....LMMFAO!!!....:snap:


:rofl: This just show you have not a single clue of the people you are talking too, so don't both wasting your *OPINION* that's ok. We have plenty of others to talk to being as this is a dog discussion forum and that's what we do.


----------



## American_Pit13

KMdogs said:


> Go out in the field and youll see the difference or ask any person who produces or has a yard of high end Bulldogs why they dont run ''blues''.. It is easy to dismiss somethimg as nothing more than folk lore if youve never went out and explored it.
> 
> Also the term ''blue'' is recent


How is the term blue recent? Serious question.

You show me a dog man who matched blue dogs and got nothing but curs and I would be glad to chat with them, however a dogman who has a preset idea of what blues are gives me nothing new than what's in this thread.

Also I didn't see any answer to why if blues are curs, due to color, then how do other color change the dogs? No way if blues change dogs that's the only color with the ability to genetically change a dog....


----------



## zohawn

American_Pit13 said:


> How is the term blue recent? Serious question.
> 
> You show me a dog man who matched blue dogs and got nothing but curs and I would be glad to chat with them, however a dogman who has a preset idea of what blues are gives me nothing new than what's in this thread.
> 
> *
> Also I didn't see any answer to why if blues are curs do to color then how do other color change the dogs?* No way if blues change dogs that's the only color with the ability to genetically change a dog....


the dogs that hold that genetic marker werent given the chance to prove themselves therefore their genetics havent been backed like bucksin, black etc has.

thats what the box does for these dogs, nature is survival of the fittest and the box is what humans used to build their yard.

its what happens. over time, after breeding winner to winner, you have a yard of only winners and a higher chance to produce winners


----------



## KMdogs

zohawn said:


> *the dogs that hold that genetic marker werent given the chance to prove themselves therefore their genetics havent been backed like bucksin, black etc has.*
> 
> thats what the box does for these dogs, nature is survival of the fittest and the box is what humans used to build their yard.
> 
> its what happens. over time, after breeding winner to winner, you have a yard of only winners and a higher chance to produce winners


I don't know where you or anyone else gets this information from but the evidence is in the puddin'.. Those "blue" dogs were given that chance and it was proven to be otherwise too great of a gamble and shot in the dark to roll.. Inconsistency is key.



American_Pit13 said:


> How is the term blue recent? Serious question.
> 
> You show me a dog man who matched blue dogs and got nothing but curs and I would be glad to chat with them, however a dogman who has a preset idea of what blues are gives me nothing new than what's in this thread.
> 
> Also I didn't see any answer to why if blues are curs, due to color, then how do other color change the dogs? No way if blues change dogs that's the only color with the ability to genetically change a dog....


*
I agree and Goeman, I agree with a statement you just said ^^^ .. .. My statement following AmericanPit13 basically is saying it is evident dogmen did pick and keep certain colors of their strain over others... Cant deny that even though they knew as we know color is not important (we all seen em pick em or leave em becaus of color), COLOR is important because its of the SKIN that means its an ORGAN that also means other organs like the BRAIN are going to carry traits associated with that SKIN or HAIR type.. As far as winning.. if it won twice back in the day it got registered as an APBT.. well I've seen some rough blue curs that could clear that bar before falling off...... If color is NOT important than you tell me why so many dog men will cull blue and solid white APBTs ??? You all know why and there is statistical science to back it up by way of dogman and [] dog history and we know that too... Thats where I leave it...........

If it can be said: it has been said....... IF it can be done.. it has been done.... * - Stan

*NO.. thats the one dog that has been well displayed here on GPB.. I havent forgottten.. This is also the blue dog proven game that Southern kennels bred their JRB stuff into.. Southern kennels is rebuilding from scratch. NOW anyone who gets a JRB down from Southern and it has Bellons soga in it... well thats tainted genes and WATCH OUT them dead game RARE blue JRB dogs will be all over before you know it. Km said it best, and Americanpit13 your original thought simply on that dispite function over ability many dogmen fancied and kept particular colors over the other and almost all of them culled a solid white dog or blue dog from their program. ......

Stu Flower.. ?? is where the blue mutation is coming from... Check some of them alligator dogs the mayday and limey and early alligator followers used they carried the same pigment until dominated by other alligator blood. Stu Flower was a blend of OF and COLBY .. which produced OFRN and also produced dogs that were called blue by some owners. Shuffle through all the peds of the crosses I've seen a few in the 50s and previous, calling their dogs blue, but only that ONE owner .. LOL My point is Stu Flower is a dog that was in the generation that he could have easily been bred as a staff just as tacoma was .. all that heavy stu flower and merged with boudreaux.. .. going to push that blue mutation right out. especially when soga is built on Stu Flower and Cottons Bullet exclusively; and how they placed the offspring to produce the mutation.. OR.. its a rung dog. I believe back when Sadie and I had it out on the blue as I believe it now.. Southern tainted their stock.. and they knew it.. in hindsite. Good for show goers and fancy pants competitors.. not so good for the family, strain, breeder of solid traits without undesirable traits..

I've had a blue boudreaux dog.. I wont have another. * - Stan

I quoted these two of Stans posts because this really answers most of your post.. No point in saying essentially the same thing over and over.

But as far as color goes aside from what was quoted above, depends on who you were to ask as to what is the most "superior".. For instance, OFRN built upon reds and if you ask anyone heavily involved in OF than all else is subpar.

The term "blue" is recent due to there are very, VERY few mentioning of "Blue" pre 1960s.. Although the color itself existed among show stock and culled in yards producing game stock after being proven of Cur OR high risk, it wasn't referred to very often as "Blue" just as many of your registry color charts are not the same as back in the old ages.. It was kept simple.. Brindle was brindle... Buckskin or in some areas Brown.. Black... Red.. The genetics the same, reference kept simple.

Why would a Dog man match anything without first testing the ability on if theres even potential? They didn't just throw dogs in the ring and let them go at it. So you probably won't find anyone alive that matched "blue dogs", tested perhaps. Aside it sounds pretty much a lost cause for you any how as you say if there are any preset in mind set than you wouldn't really pick up anything you haven't already which tells me you have your mind set and that is that.


----------



## zohawn

shes a woman, her mind was made up the minute she was born.


theres no way blues have been able to go through the wringer like all the other colors have. gameness is not natural to animals, it took a long time to cultivate. blues are behind a few 100 yrs at least


----------



## Firehazard

I answered the color question.. .

I can find you proof.. if you all can't.. its all in the pudding.

I have found all sorts of dogs lableled blue off of game yards or crazy 15X + winners such as Melonhead.. and several others many off cottons bullet crossings, many Colby crosses as well. I've seen Limey dogs with and with out the red mutation inthe black .. the one without mutation has the glossy shimmer that Chimera mentioned pages back.

There are TWO forms of blue.. one in which the hair itself is BLUE HUE GRAY and the other is a mixture of white black and red hairs that form a HUE of BLUE..

There is SLATE which is black without red pigment, SEAL which is black with red pigment(sometimes seal dogs shimmer red, and blue; depending on the light)

Most people who ran high end blue dogs back when didnt call them blue and they didn't breed for blue either. IT was a fluke, a diaretic of colors. The WHOLE blue craze was onset by "Thug Passion" .. I've watched it since day one, more thugs have blue dogs than game dogs. As far as work.. Has anyone ever seen the original velvet and steel catchdog video? Velvet and Steel.. two blue (purple) looking high end catch dogs putting work most bulldog owners drool over. Do you think they were watchdog? or gotti? or RE? ... No... they were a blend of the top notch game dog blood of the day. Ironically the two blue bulldogs so famous for holding a bull still on the road after he got loose from a rancher after katrina and the parish "sheriff" shot them because he was ignorant of bulldogs and there task.

As far as the [] goes.. blue was never kept and valued for harboring game, did a few good "blue" dogs pop up, of course. Do they breed true.. NO.. take you 100yrs to single out a game blue gene that was sound enough to pass on. I've seen the best blue dogs in the world as far as hog catching goes, Chaos original Sky Blue stock produced some straight monsters, everyone washed it all out with whopper or gotti RE breeding for that BLUE and hulk like monsters.

Its all relatively simple.. If it worked, it worked.. if it didn't it didn't... and we have today what worked, works, and will continue to work the best as long as we pay attention to detail and the fine work put in to create the legacy of the American Pit Bull Terrier aka the traditional Bulldog.

Color is NOT of importance .. HOWEVER .. when an undesirable trait pops up time and again in BLUE and in SOLID WHITE dogs.. we get the sayings and historical practices of "never trust a solid white [] dog" and culling of the two from litters. I've seen the best of several sub strains competed in the field on hogs and game bred APBT and dogos do the best.. Dogos solid white and the honest dogs, will eat a man who don't belong as fast as they will a dog or beast that doesnt belong. SO in retrospect the color of the skin can show you a hint of the brain strengths or weakness' from genetic weakness associated with white and with blue.. both.. ironically when bred and kept for color cause massive genetic problems... THINK NOT? Look at the Great Dane. Look at the AmStaff.. Look at the Boston Terrier.. all crippled from breeding for looks and color alone.. Yes there are blue,black, and red nosed bostons out there with a world of genetic problems.

If it can work.. it can work.. HOWEVER.. genetic weakness are associated with color we have shown that again and again. I believe I even showed a complete diagram in the MERLE convo.. Blue and SOLID White has a dillute that morphs the programing of the cells in the sense of family breeding for that PIGMENTATION LOSS.

Working dogs should not be bred for color.. HOWEVER.. ITS OBVIOUS that dogmen had their favorite color they kept.. ONLY .. .Hammonds who LOVES black dogs more than any other.. kept what worked the best dispite the color. Every OTHER old timer even Colby and Lightner had kept and gotten rid of dogs because of color.

Blue game dogs.. there have been a handfull .. they are not known for being nor passing on game traits.. generally like many dogs today they are simply just rough curs. HAVE Been KNOWN as such since the 17th century; MOST of the APBT stock today in the 21st century is just that. Without a scientifically controlled environment to prove game, .. Bulldogs, Terriers, and Bandogs depending on task size mentallity and activity levels is what they are and nothing more. The APBT is a signature that honestly can only be represented by a lil more than a hand full of the sources for stock today, and all the others have only legal hunting, catch work and pedigree the source and foundation behind them.


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## KMdogs

Firehazard said:


> I answered the color question.. .
> 
> I can find you proof.. if you all can't.. its all in the pudding.
> 
> I have found all sorts of dogs lableled blue off of game yards or crazy 15X + winners such as Melonhead.. and several others many off cottons bullet crossings, many Colby crosses as well. I've seen Limey dogs with and with out the red mutation inthe black .. the one without mutation has the glossy shimmer that Chimera mentioned pages back.
> 
> There are TWO forms of blue.. one in which the hair itself is BLUE HUE GRAY and the other is a mixture of white black and red hairs that form a HUE of BLUE..
> 
> There is SLATE which is black without red pigment, SEAL which is black with red pigment(sometimes seal dogs shimmer red, and blue; depending on the light)
> 
> Most people who ran high end blue dogs back when didnt call them blue and they didn't breed for blue either. IT was a fluke, a diaretic of colors. The WHOLE blue craze was onset by "Thug Passion" .. I've watched it since day one, more thugs have blue dogs than game dogs. As far as work.. Has anyone ever seen the original velvet and steel catchdog video? Velvet and Steel.. two blue (purple) looking high end catch dogs putting work most bulldog owners drool over. Do you think they were watchdog? or gotti? or RE? ... No... they were a blend of the top notch game dog blood of the day. Ironically the two blue bulldogs so famous for holding a bull still on the road after he got loose from a rancher after katrina and the parish "sheriff" shot them because he was ignorant of bulldogs and there task.
> 
> As far as the [] goes.. blue was never kept and valued for harboring game, did a few good "blue" dogs pop up, of course. Do they breed true.. NO.. take you 100yrs to single out a game blue gene that was sound enough to pass on. I've seen the best blue dogs in the world as far as hog catching goes, Chaos original Sky Blue stock produced some straight monsters, everyone washed it all out with whopper or gotti RE breeding for that BLUE and hulk like monsters.
> 
> Its all relatively simple.. If it worked, it worked.. if it didn't it didn't... and we have today what worked, works, and will continue to work the best as long as we pay attention to detail and the fine work put in to create the legacy of the American Pit Bull Terrier aka the traditional Bulldog.
> 
> Color is NOT of importance .. HOWEVER .. when an undesirable trait pops up time and again in BLUE and in SOLID WHITE dogs.. we get the sayings and historical practices of "never trust a solid white [] dog" and culling of the two from litters. I've seen the best of several sub strains competed in the field on hogs and game bred APBT and dogos do the best.. Dogos solid white and the honest dogs, will eat a man who don't belong as fast as they will a dog or beast that doesnt belong. SO in retrospect the color of the skin can show you a hint of the brain strengths or weakness' from genetic weakness associated with white and with blue.. both.. ironically when bred and kept for color cause massive genetic problems... THINK NOT? Look at the Great Dane. Look at the AmStaff.. Look at the Boston Terrier.. all crippled from breeding for looks and color alone.. Yes there are blue,black, and red nosed bostons out there with a world of genetic problems.
> 
> If it can work.. it can work.. HOWEVER.. genetic weakness are associated with color we have shown that again and again. I believe I even showed a complete diagram in the MERLE convo.. Blue and SOLID White has a dillute that morphs the programing of the cells in the sense of family breeding for that PIGMENTATION LOSS.
> 
> Working dogs should not be bred for color.. HOWEVER.. ITS OBVIOUS that dogmen had their favorite color they kept.. ONLY .. .Hammonds who LOVES black dogs more than any other.. kept what worked the best dispite the color. Every OTHER old timer even Colby and Lightner had kept and gotten rid of dogs because of color.
> 
> Blue game dogs.. there have been a handfull .. they are not known for being nor passing on game traits.. generally like many dogs today they are simply just rough curs. HAVE Been KNOWN as such since the 17th century; MOST of the APBT stock today in the 21st century is just that. Without a scientifically controlled environment to prove game, .. Bulldogs, Terriers, and Bandogs depending on task size mentallity and activity levels is what they are and nothing more. The APBT is a signature that honestly can only be represented by a lil more than a hand full of the sources for stock today, and all the others have only legal hunting, catch work and pedigree the source and foundation behind them.


Good summary of the past several pages.. If this doesn't answer anything for anyone paired with all else that has been included, nothing will. Either refusal to see the truth, refusal to believe the truth or perhaps lack of knowledge to benefit from. Either way, ALL answers are there and not just in this thread but throughout the history of these dogs.

ALL colors, ALL mixture of strains/sub strains, ALL of which has been trialed, tested and perfected to the up most of their ability during the peaks.. There after, maintained and consistency. If proved to work? Great. If it proved superior? It was perfected. Like wise, if it proved inconsistent or Cur, well no point in wasting more time proving genetics wrong. Believe it or not, they knew what they were doing.

Genetics do not work as individuals, they all are intertwined and connected to make up the animal thus when you change one thing, a stream of reaction follows.


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## Saint Francis

"never trust a solid white [] dog". I suppose Wallace's King Cotton was one major exception. Obviously NOT culled LOL, and had no challengers after winning the first match so convincingly. Retired to stud...meaning reproduce. Gameness outweighed color, and any possible genetic problems, in this instance.


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## Firehazard

Saint Francis said:


> "never trust a solid white [] dog". I suppose Wallace's King Cotton was one major exception. Obviously NOT culled LOL, and had no challengers after winning the first match so convincingly. Retired to stud...meaning reproduce. Gameness outweighed color, and any possible genetic problems, in this instance.


your talking that white dog built on Searcys Jeff? with shot of centipede? Look at the 7 and you'll see guess who.. Colby.. ALOT.. just a side note I wanted to point out  ... People knew he was HOT but that first time out left an impression for most. Centipede though red on red was a similar HOT dog.. Like I said as we all know color did not matter when your talking game, HOWEVER they all picked dogs and kept dogs on color and the primary lines show this to be true.

I know what your saying, because you can find more than one solid white pit dog.. however.. it is a saying that developed for good reason. NO one wants a man biting fighting dog. .. well almost no one.. heheheh


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## ames

We all say behavior of a game dog is something it's born with. Something it that it never has to be trained. It can be nurtured and helped along but it's a born with trait. Not all dogs in a litter might get that trait. Maybe to some degree, but not every dog. I know we agree on on that, for the most part It's a behavior of a dog. It's a trait. There is no connection genetically between behavior and appearance. All dogs need to be judged on their behavior not appearance. A dog afraid of thunder or one that barks all day when you leave isn't linked to what color his toe nails are or what kind of fur they have. It's a behavior. One that a trainer can help correct or elevate depending in WHAT behavior they have. Good bad or otherwise. why would it any different in APBT than any other breed of dog? I'm not buying the stories sorry. I need proof of these opinions based in fact not folklore.

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## Firehazard

ames said:


> We all say behavior of a game dog is something it's born with. Something it that it never has to be trained. It can be nurtured and helped along but it's a born with trait. Not all dogs in a litter might get that trait. Maybe to some degree, but not every dog. I know we agree on on that, for the most part It's a behavior of a dog. It's a trait. There is no connection genetically between behavior and appearance. All dogs need to be judged on their behavior not appearance. A dog afraid of thunder or one that barks all day when you leave isn't linked to what color his toe nails are or what kind of fur they have. It's a behavior. One that a trainer can help correct or elevate depending in WHAT behavior they have. Good bad or otherwise. why would it any different in APBT than any other breed of dog? I'm not buying the stories sorry. I need proof of these opinions based in fact not folklore.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Good point however.. GENETICALLY there is plenty to link genetic health or sound mentality with skin color ... pick a mammal


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## Carriana

ames said:


> There is no connection genetically between behavior and appearance. All dogs need to be judged on their behavior not appearance. A dog afraid of thunder or one that barks all day when you leave isn't linked to what color his toe nails are or what kind of fur they have. It's a behavior. One that a trainer can help correct or elevate depending in WHAT behavior they have. Good bad or otherwise. why would it any different in APBT than any other breed of dog? I'm not buying the stories sorry. I need proof of these opinions based in fact not folklore.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


It could be argued that physical traits and behaviors are linked though, since if you think about it, isn't that how we most of the various dog breeds we have today? At least for working breeds (or what was once a working breed before dog shows ruined them). Various dogs with desired working abilities were selected and bred based on desired physical and mental capabilities - not looks alone. Looks in many cases would have been secondary, however, if you breed enough dogs with similar physical abilities for a specific function then there will begin to be some consistency as far as physical appearance because you're whittling down the genetic pool from which you choose your breeding stock.

Those physical traits (in genetics they are referred to as phenotypes) that arise from this selective breeding will ultimately stabilize and give you the dog breeds we know of today. There would and could be the rare event of genetic mutation which could cause a single specimen to display traits which are outside the norm, however the more likely cause of a sudden appearance of a different trait or color in dog breeds would be the addition of blood from an outside genetic pool.

If the appearance of a blue dog was in fact as a result of an outcross instead of a genetic mutation then it would seem fathomable that said blue dog would possibly carry with it traits uncharacteristic of an APBT (lacking gameness). Even if the appearance of blue dogs was due to a genetic mutation, DNA is funny in the sense that one allele or gene can affect more than one trait. This is called *Pleiotropy*. In that sense, it is entirely possible that behavior and physical appearance can be linked.


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## Firehazard

Carriana said:


> It could be argued that physical traits and behaviors are linked though, since if you think about it, isn't that how we most of the various dog breeds we have today? At least for working breeds (or what was once a working breed before dog shows ruined them). Various dogs with desired working abilities were selected and bred based on desired physical and mental capabilities - not looks alone. Looks in many cases would have been secondary, however, if you breed enough dogs with similar physical abilities for a specific function then there will begin to be some consistency as far as physical appearance because you're whittling down the genetic pool from which you choose your breeding stock.
> 
> Those physical traits (in genetics they are referred to as phenotypes) that arise from this selective breeding will ultimately stabilize and give you the dog breeds we know of today. There would and could be the rare event of genetic mutation which could cause a single specimen to display traits which are outside the norm, however the more likely cause of a sudden appearance of a different trait or color in dog breeds would be the addition of blood from an outside genetic pool.
> 
> If the appearance of a blue dog was in fact as a result of an outcross instead of a genetic mutation then it would seem fathomable that said blue dog would possibly carry with it traits uncharacteristic of an APBT (lacking gameness). Even if the appearance of blue dogs was due to a genetic mutation, DNA is funny in the sense that one allele or gene can affect more than one trait. This is called *Pleiotropy*. In that sense, it is entirely possible that behavior and physical appearance can be linked.


up:.. I quit speaking scientific terms long ago, broke it down to crayon. I should start using proper terminology more. GREAT POST!


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## Saint Francis

Firehazard said:


> your talking that white dog built on Searcys Jeff? with shot of centipede? Look at the 7 and you'll see guess who.. Colby.. ALOT.. just a side note I wanted to point out  ... People knew he was HOT but that first time out left an impression for most. Centipede though red on red was a similar HOT dog.. Like I said as we all know color did not matter when your talking game, HOWEVER they all picked dogs and kept dogs on color and the primary lines show this to be true.
> 
> I know what your saying, because you can find more than one solid white pit dog.. however.. it is a saying that developed for good reason. NO one wants a man biting fighting dog. .. well almost no one.. heheheh


So Colby is responsible for these "white" anomolies? There is also some Corcoran in there as well...good old irish. Also, wasn't Feeley's Jim white as well, IIRC?


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## Firehazard

Saint Francis said:


> So Colby is responsible for these "white" anomolies? There is also some Corcoran in there as well...good old irish. Also, wasn't Feeley's Jim white as well, IIRC?


Like I said in those other topics we speak here of: those guys pulled the Colby and Feeley together down from old early stock, and to double up on them by pulling the inbred lines both down from the same stuff back to each other.. Paddy dogs.. There were many solid white bulldogs in the early days and that was probably do to a large quanity of white dogs used in the field of when they were bulldogs by chore and bloodline of dog.

Colby, and Feeley, together is some heavy Paddy and early bulldog dna right up front and pushing old stuff right on out.. so yeh.. by putting them all together you get what you got.. take one piece out and it aint the same critter.

THUS: per blue being not trusted genetically it is WEAK among bulldog dogmen, I believe it relates to merle .. look at the merle conversation which comes from a dilute such as blue. Solid white dogs not trusted was always in the term of human aggression, a white dog that was HOT.. was usually an all around go getter. I also know they breed deaf and blind dogs if they double up on that white gene more often than any other color.. I would say that Hammonds Rufus is proof that the genetic mutation red out of black black (double back to mother) produced deaf.. so was law dog deaf.. Red ale of alligator strain carries deaf gene.. I love the strain and Know exactly what your saying StFrancis.. Just cause it dont work for some doesnt mean it doesnt work let alone work for others.. However in game and color and genetics.. the proof is in the pudding.. every color got its chance..


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## Saint Francis

I hear what you're saying Stan about the English (Pilot and Paddy) and Old Family(Irish) bond. So let's give credit to those before Colby, etc. The "Old" families from Cork and Derry, Ireland, the Murphy strain from Ireland, and those from Waterford, Killkinney, and Galt, Ireland. And in England, those from Wolver Hampton (Henry's Richmond...another white pit dog). Some of Richmond's ancestors in England were Birmingham's Jack, Prisoner, White Demon, and Donnington's Duke. Also Napoleon Jack was another import from England. In addition, the Scotts also lent a hand in the formation of the APBT via the Blue Paul crossings with the English and Irish dogs. The pit dog named Spring was an early import from Glasgow, Scotland which was the center of Blue Paul activity. Power's Violet (believed to be blue in color and possibly a Blue Paul) was another early Scottish import. All shared a part in what we have today.


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## ::::COACH::::

Carriana said:


> It could be argued that physical traits and behaviors are linked though, since if you think about it, isn't that how we most of the various dog breeds we have today? At least for working breeds (or what was once a working breed before dog shows ruined them). Various dogs with desired working abilities were selected and bred based on desired physical and mental capabilities - not looks alone. Looks in many cases would have been secondary, however, if you breed enough dogs with similar physical abilities for a specific function then there will begin to be some consistency as far as physical appearance because you're whittling down the genetic pool from which you choose your breeding stock.
> 
> Those physical traits (in genetics they are referred to as phenotypes) that arise from this selective breeding will ultimately stabilize and give you the dog breeds we know of today. There would and could be the rare event of genetic mutation which could cause a single specimen to display traits which are outside the norm, however the more likely cause of a sudden appearance of a different trait or color in dog breeds would be the addition of blood from an outside genetic pool.
> 
> If the appearance of a blue dog was in fact as a result of an outcross instead of a genetic mutation then it would seem fathomable that said blue dog would possibly carry with it traits uncharacteristic of an APBT (lacking gameness). Even if the appearance of blue dogs was due to a genetic mutation, DNA is funny in the sense that one allele or gene can affect more than one trait. This is called *Pleiotropy*. In that sense, it is entirely possible that behavior and physical appearance can be linked.


Excellent post!! I have not read all the comments so sorry if this is way out of place lol! I do feel there was a reason they culled them, and that it was not just for color thing. I do believe they were at one point matched and the blue dogs just were not as game...and of course the skin issues...they just were not what they were needing.

I don't think the dogmen discriminated against color and that they *did* give them a chance just like any other one of their dogs. It does not make sense why they would just decide randomly for no reason to cull dogs that were blue...there was a reason.


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## KMdogs

::::COACH:::: said:


> Excellent post!! I have not read all the comments so sorry if this is way out of place lol! *I do feel there was a reason they culled them, and that it was not just for color thing.* I do believe they were at one point matched and the blue dogs just were not as game...and of course the skin issues...they just were not what they were needing.
> 
> *I don't think the dogmen discriminated against color and that they *did* give them a chance just like any other one of their dogs. It does not make sense why they would just decide randomly for no reason to cull dogs that were blue...there was a reason.*


Another post brought to you by GP Crayola.. :thumbsup: Lingo can open minds occasionally glad to see a few doin' their own research coming to the truth without distortion or going in with preset mind of its all wrong from the start.


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## KMdogs

ames said:


> We all say behavior of a game dog is something it's born with. Something it that it never has to be trained. It can be nurtured and helped along but it's a born with trait. Not all dogs in a litter might get that trait. Maybe to some degree, but not every dog. I know we agree on on that, for the most part It's a behavior of a dog. It's a trait. There is no connection genetically between behavior and appearance. All dogs need to be judged on their behavior not appearance. A dog afraid of thunder or one that barks all day when you leave isn't linked to what color his toe nails are or what kind of fur they have. It's a behavior. One that a trainer can help correct or elevate depending in WHAT behavior they have. Good bad or otherwise. why would it any different in APBT than any other breed of dog? I'm not buying the stories sorry. I need proof of these opinions based in fact not folklore.


This is what i call "new age" thinking.. Appearance doesn't "typically" amount to much unless we are looking at structure weakness or strengths, however as i stated in a previous post ALL genes that are the genetic make up of an animal work as one to create.. Thus nothing works as individual genetic material..

Think of it this way, you have a car engine. You have your individual parts, pistons, cams, header, intake, valves, clutch mechanisms, etc.. None of these parts are more significant than the other as all intertwine to allow the motor to start, run and perform. IF lets say one of these fail, for simplicity reasons lets say you do an experiment and cut off your intakes ability to send air to the engine. Try and ignite and what happens? You are not just changing one part of the engine you are creating a spiral of problems which in the end causes the engine to not start. (best way i can put it so anyone who knows about cars..lets not complicate this :rofl

SO that said, genetics works similarly. You change one thing, coat color, eyes, mutation in ears, leg, tail, etc.. What you see isn't all that it effects.. Even if the dog can still function and still appears in order, i.e no problematic areas to speak of.. Trainable, even temperament, etc.. This does not mean you have altered other genes that is not visible or perhaps not known without testing specific areas to see out come.


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## ames

Firehazard said:


> Good point however.. GENETICALLY there is plenty to link genetic health or sound mentality with skin color ... pick a mammal


Ok just to clarify you mean like sickle cell being more hereditary in African americans, and thins like that? Because that's a disease not a trait so I don't know how they compare? What am I missing? that is if the race hasn't been infiltrated with other races. Same with dogs but they are even more complex since there are more races. So I COULD see the argument blue dogs have been infiltrated with another breeds (amstaff) genes which might not contain the trait of gaminess (or is it game?). Since its 50/50.

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## back2basics

The genes that cause blue have been linked to canine follicular dysplasia, white has been linked to deafness, merle etc. etc. etc.....many colors or when bred for color only can be linked to genetic abnormalities. Not enough genetic diversity going on once you focus on color.


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## ames

Carriana said:


> It could be argued that physical traits and behaviors are linked though, since if you think about it, isn't that how we most of the various dog breeds we have today? At least for working breeds (or what was once a working breed before dog shows ruined them). Various dogs with desired working abilities were selected and bred based on desired physical and mental capabilities - not looks alone. Looks in many cases would have been secondary, however, if you breed enough dogs with similar physical abilities for a specific function then there will begin to be some consistency as far as physical appearance because you're whittling down the genetic pool from which you choose your breeding stock.
> 
> Those physical traits (in genetics they are referred to as phenotypes) that arise from this selective breeding will ultimately stabilize and give you the dog breeds we know of today. There would and could be the rare event of genetic mutation which could cause a single specimen to display traits which are outside the norm, however the more likely cause of a sudden appearance of a different trait or color in dog breeds would be the addition of blood from an outside genetic pool.
> 
> If the appearance of a blue dog was in fact as a result of an outcross instead of a genetic mutation then it would seem fathomable that said blue dog would possibly carry with it traits uncharacteristic of an APBT (lacking gameness). Even if the appearance of blue dogs was due to a genetic mutation, DNA is funny in the sense that one allele or gene can affect more than one trait. This is called *Pleiotropy*. In that sense, it is entirely possible that behavior and physical appearance can be linked.


Absolutely!! But my point is appearance and behavior are different genes. You can have them repeat and match up time and time again. But they are not connected. It's not about a color it's about behavior. Just like people say you can throw a different color in a litter but that dog might still be game. Appearance and behavior are different genes.

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## ames

KMdogs said:


> This is what i call "new age" thinking.. Appearance doesn't "typically" amount to much unless we are looking at structure weakness or strengths, however as i stated in a previous post ALL genes that are the genetic make up of an animal work as one to create.. Thus nothing works as individual genetic material..
> 
> Think of it this way, you have a car engine. You have your individual parts, pistons, cams, header, intake, valves, clutch mechanisms, etc.. None of these parts are more significant than the other as all intertwine to allow the motor to start, run and perform. IF lets say one of these fail, for simplicity reasons lets say you do an experiment and cut off your intakes ability to send air to the engine. Try and ignite and what happens? You are not just changing one part of the engine you are creating a spiral of problems which in the end causes the engine to not start. (best way i can put it so anyone who knows about cars..lets not complicate this :rofl
> 
> SO that said, genetics works similarly. You change one thing, coat color, eyes, mutation in ears, leg, tail, etc.. What you see isn't all that it effects.. Even if the dog can still function and still appears in order, i.e no problematic areas to speak of.. Trainable, even temperament, etc.. This does not mean you have altered other genes that is not visible or perhaps not known without testing specific areas to see out come.


Ok I need to read this again because I don't get the comparison. What I look at it is the parents are wags deck of cards and when you shuffle the cards they can appear in any order. Still doesn't mean looks and behaviors are tied. You replace the part with another maker and the part still works even of its not the same brand, right? As long as its piston who cares what color the Piston is?

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## Carriana

ames said:


> Ok just to clarify you mean like sickle cell being more hereditary in African americans, and thins like that? Because that's a disease not a trait so I don't know how they compare? What am I missing? that is if the race hasn't been infiltrated with other races. Same with dogs but they are even more complex since there are more races. So I COULD see the argument blue dogs have been infiltrated with another breeds (amstaff) genes which might not contain the trait of gaminess (or is it game?). Since its 50/50.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Sickle cell is a disease, yes, but it's a genetic disease. It's not something you can contract. It's hereditary and so it is no different than inheriting eye color or skin color.

Slightly off topic, the reason sickle cell is more common people of African descent is that though it can cause illness and result in a shorter life span it also carries with it an immunity to malaria. So the reason the disease has not been eliminated completely through natural selection is because it does have a beneficial side effect.


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## ames

Carriana said:


> Sickle cell is a disease, yes, but it's a genetic disease. It's not something you can contract. It's hereditary and so it is no different than inheriting eye color or skin color.
> 
> Slightly off topic, the reason sickle cell is more common people of African descent is that though it can cause illness and result in a shorter life span it also carries with it an immunity to malaria. So the reason the disease has not been eliminated completely through natural selection is because it does have a beneficial side effect.


Agreed that's why I was confused by Stan's post what he was meaning. Thanks though didn't know the reason why it was just knew it is.


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## ames

back2basics said:


> The genes that cause blue have been linked to canine follicular dysplasia, white has been linked to deafness, merle etc. etc. etc.....many colors or when bred for color only can be linked to genetic abnormalities. Not enough genetic diversity going on once you focus on color.


No doubt!! But still those are not behaviors. Deaf isn't a behavior. You can have "smart" deaf dogs and "dumb" deaf dogs. Agreed but blue dogs have been around just not being bred til recent times. That's when dog fighting is illegal so I'm talking about back in the day not they situation now with overbred blue dogs. Back in the day they were killed before ther behavior was developed or known.


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## Firehazard

ames said:


> Ok just to clarify you mean like sickle cell being more hereditary in African americans, and thins like that? Because that's a disease not a trait so I don't know how they compare? What am I missing? that is if the race hasn't been infiltrated with other races. Same with dogs but they are even more complex since there are more races. So I COULD see the argument blue dogs have been infiltrated with another breeds (amstaff) genes which might not contain the trait of gaminess (or is it game?). Since its 50/50.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


indeed.. .. Not at all that complicated,huh.. up:


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## doughboi

Look I don't know about all the genetics and game stuff but I have seen some ace and ch blue dogs pulling like it ain't nothing.Not sure bloodlines other then aome guys with Falon bloodline but these are some working weight pulling dogs that get it in.AND NO THE OWNERS DON'T BREED FIR COLOR but do have 2or 3 dogs that are blue and pull hard.


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## American_Pit13

doughboi said:


> Look I don't know about all the genetics and game stuff but I have seen some ace and ch blue dogs pulling like it ain't nothing.Not sure bloodlines other then aome guys with Falon bloodline but these are some working weight pulling dogs that get it in.AND NO THE OWNERS DON'T BREED FIR COLOR but do have 2or 3 dogs that are blue and pull hard.


Excelling in Weight pull doesn't compare to being game. Completely different areas.


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## doughboi

American_Pit13 said:


> Excelling in Weight pull doesn't compare to being game. Completely different areas.


Oh ok like I said don't know about game but so and have seen some great weight pulling dogs. So when saying game basically referring to [] and or hog hunting or just [] and what they accomplishes in it?


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## Goemon

American_Pit13 said:


> :rofl: This just show you have not a single clue of the people you are talking too, so don't both wasting your *OPINION* that's ok. We have plenty of others to talk to being as this is a dog discussion forum and that's what we do.


Perhaps I don't know then....I thought I was talking to "pet bull" owners who have never matched a dog, or have bred game dogs for over 200 combined years added together...(as those I know have done!and taught me many FACTS)
So when I am called a hypocrite and know nothing of genetics in Pit Dogs, I tend to take offense at that. 
Especially when it comes, not only from those who have never done it, but who oppose the ApBT's specialty....and real purpose.

Since I always agree to disagree with those I respect, and you are one of them, I'll word what I have been trying to say, but perhaps wasn't clear.
There may indeed come along a blue dog that has a level of gameness in it. 
However....for that dog to produce it again in a litter would be 1 in a million.
It would take years and years of culling to get a % worth keeping, as a [] dog. 
Point being, the blues are just a shell of an ApBT, and IMO are AST's.
Many on here rightly say, "The AST and ApBT are different breeds." 
Well, any dogs that have been bred for show and not go purposes, lose what they once had.
Here is a good quote regarding Colby dogs, which could be applied to the blues as well: (By Indian Sonny)
"The Colby dogs of the past, fit the description of good blood, as their pit records indicate. The Colby strain was developed on the principle of Best to Best. When that principle is no longer employed there is bound to be a drastic change in quality. In a very short period of time a great strain of dogs can be reduced to a strain that can do no more than refer to their pedigree and say "My great, great, grand-daddy was a pit dog....I think!"

That is why a four generation pedigree is all that is needed when getting a pup.
What has been done lately? 
For a pup comes out like its grandparents and great grandparents, and the parents are the door of life, so to speak.

Also, there are more non-registered blues than registered ones, and most blues are bullys. 
So they make good pets and good weight pull dogs...nothing wrong with that.
But they are not [] dogs anymore, and not even I know when they truly were used last as such.

I do personally know a blue made the mistake when off leash coming at one of my dogs.
But it was a Razor's Edge 2.5 yrs. It is my friends brothers dog, and he believed it was a REAL ApBT.
It has high dog aggression (well it did once, lol) and was 85# I would say...solid muscle.
Well, my friends brother is embarrassed to this day that his dog couldn't take 30 seconds of being shook around like a toy. 
It screamed and whined and since then hasn't been right in the head.
It is now scared of everything, nervous, and pisses at the sight of other dogs, as it shakes. 
He asked me what was wrong, and all I told him was, that dog is a cur! (he didn't know what that meant, lol.)
It had ZERO gameness....
I only post this as it was an accident, and he was at fault for not restraining the dog.

*Better to start off right in learning, than to start with what is accepted.
And the public polls have never made a winner.*


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## ames

One thing is pet dog owners vs what? Who cares!! It's a freaking dog. I wish people would get over themselves sometimes and realize no matter what you have been told its not something that happens in this country and technically if you go to another its still illegal. If I remember geomon you said your in your 30's? So you can't talk from experience either so STFU with that talk. What were you 4 in 1976!?! lol. Anything done is the states today are not real Dog men so anything you wanna claim you know from experience is pointless. And to argue you do know current day makes you look like an asshole. Most blue dogs mentioned were not around pre76 so it's not worth mentioning, different game then.

Just because pot is legal in Amsterdam doesn't mean I can't be held accountable in the states for smoking it while i was there. So as far as proving game it's irrelevant. I am talking history. Who is talking current day blue dogs!?!? That's ridiculous.

Sent from Petguide.com App


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## American_Pit13

Goemon said:


> Perhaps I don't know then...*.I thought I was talking to "pet bull" owners who have never matched a dog, or have bred game dogs for over 200 combined years added together.*..(as those I know have done!and taught me many FACTS)





Goemon said:


> You, and any others can think whatever you want, whether i understand genetics or not.
> Makes no difference to me I reckon.
> *Just proves the old timers correct, when they say the "haters" (anti-fighters) are like sponges already filled...*
> (before the 1976 Animal Welfare Act came out, with the lying media who put all the abusive methods in the idiots minds to begin with,
> everyone knew what these dogs were for, and nobody had a problem with it!)
> *They can't absorb anything more than they already have in their heads. *
> But NONE OF YOU can prove your theories, or produce better bulldogs than the men who set their conformation by [] standards.
> 
> *People wanna think blue dogs are game.*...LMMFAO!!!....:snap:


First off none us us claimed they were game. We claimed the color is from APBT's as it is. Blue is a dilute of black and was not from the intermixing of another breeds of dog. That is us referring to a BREED OF DOG. Now if you choose to label a dog on whether they are box dogs or not that's fine, however it is FACT that American Pit Bull Terrier is a breed of dog registered by the ADBA and UKC. If you don't agree with them calling that group of dogs APBT that is ok, but it is still FACT that it is a breed of dog.

Now as for who you are speaking to I commented on you calling us "haters" (anti-fighters)and saying we are like sponges already filled. Also saying "They can't absorb anything more than they already have in their heads."

If you really think we are like this then why bother posting here at all? If you really think this is what we are like then as I said you have no clue of the people you are talking to.

Now you responded to me with "I thought I was talking to "pet bull" owners who have never matched a dog, or have bred game dogs for over 200 combined years added together."

Now this you have correct, we are not dog fighters so if you only wish to address dog fighters then why are you posting here?


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## Goemon

That was not the case, or the intent of what I was saying.
(And I was not calling you a hater, but the majority on here are)
The learning I recieved on these dogs came from those who did, men who are out of dogs now.
Their word carries more weight than those who have never done it...that is all I meant.

There are no "dog fighters" online, so IDK why you say that.
But when speaking of a traditional fighting breed, one should never view these dogs outside of that perception. 
And IMO anyone who hates it should not own these dogs. They will never fully understand the dogs.

As I stated elsewhere, I am glad it is illegal. If it were legal today it would be worse for the dogs than it is already.
Every newbie would want to do it, and not take the time to learn how to care for the dogs.
But that does not mean the history should be forgotten.


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## KMdogs

Just because law says its illegal doesn't mean there aren't those out there doing it that aren't some wanksta ass hats that think they know. Are there many? Probably not as it is far easier and less problematic just to move out of the country and continue.

Also while i'm on subject of law one of the real differences between what has been said (myself, Stan and maybe one or two others) is that we are not gridlocked in thinking Law defines the animal.

What i mean by that is, the APBT is Pit Dog and yes i know everyone says they understand this. The difference is, many on here believe new vs. old. Instead of all Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven as an APBT (merit based on two wins to be registered as such) people want to believe that a "good pedigree" can define what is or isn't or where it is registered, what a registry says is an "APBT". 

The problem with this is, while Law has changed and made it illegal.. The dog is still the same, the genetics are still the same. It boils down to _____ reasoning but at the end of the day those Pit Dogs the day before the law was passed and effective were still the same Pit Dogs the day after the law was passed and effective. 

Law does NOT define anything BUT what they say or deem we can or cannot do in this country.

Now when it is all said and done if you chose to ignore Goemons postings it doesn't change anything, EVERYTHING has been addressed here between myself and Stan. It comes down to whether or not you'll see it for what it is or continuing to believe its myth, wrong or opinion because it doesn't make sense to you, it hurts your feelings or it goes against everything you believe and you don't want to dismiss that. Hell it could be because you didn't eat breakfast, i don't know and it doesn't matter.

We could recite all quotes from all dog men in reference to "blue" dogs, we could pull up anything every pictured or said starting with Colby and moving forward.. It all means nothing unless you are willing to accept it as more than just simply opinion since its not what you believe.

It can go back and forth for eternity as you'll either chose to accept the truth by what always has been or you'll chose to continue the modernized methods and train of thoughts.

Either way i can say (which i rarely do) if i take the time to debate with you, chances are theres at least some level of respect there even if we agree on very little. There are some on GP that some believe to be knowledgeable i believe are wash :flush: but i certainly don't waste my online experience on it. :rofl:

I end this thread there, for me any how. Take it for what its worth or simply dismiss it all for whatever reason.


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## Firehazard

:goodpost: .. . up:


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## surfer

there is NO SUCH THING AS A GAME BLUE dog or even a GAME BRED BLUE there is or was a mix thrown in there somewhere. myself, i think there is wimariener or as i call them 'wine drinkers' but people are gonna say what they want i never even heard of a 'blue' until the 90's where were they up until that point?????? these dogs have been bred a long time to be a relatively new breed. in the 80's i had a 'big ben' x 'zebo' dog he might have been what would you would call blue, but back then the color was called 'SABLE'


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## redog

Something I dug up to share......
In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note's that in the late 1930's one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936.

The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Staffordshire terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren't penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can't stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier? .
Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in today's blue dogs.
These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshire's of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch.
The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan.
In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s".
Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.

If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well. Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".
Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed.
In Richard Pascoe's book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability.
The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few.
The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas.
Clifford Ormsby: "...I started with this great breed when you could buy a Pit Bull pup for $5.00. Many times this pup had flat feet, narrow chest, no brisket, bowed legs, fiddle front, cow-hocks, was undershot and had an unreliable temperament. You could shop around and find some desirable ones but it was a problem to find good dominant breeders of quality...."
Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods were a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift. Earl became well known dogman all over the country in 1920's with his 16 times winner Black Jack dog and 9 times winner Black Jack Jr. There were many breeders in that time who decide to use Tudor's stuff in their breedings. Corrington was one of these breeders of that time. Ok, back to Ormsby's Madge... Her dam was Bennett's Queen, a cross of Hogan's & Pitts' lines. Hogan line was built on Henry blood. Some of Charles Smith's breedings are behind Hogan's too. Pitts' line was mostly old Colby's bloods with some Henry.
Clifford Ormsby was born in Hornell, NY on August 24, 1905. Alberta also was born in Hornell 3 years later, on June 29, 1908. They were good friends in fact they grew up together a couple of streets apart. Young Cliff had about every animal there was to have. His first dogs were not purebred, and Cliff wanted to have a purebred dog that had spirit. Shortly after they were married Clifford & Alberta decided to take a pure pitbull. In 1930 Cliff went to Leonard,Texas, he took the dog, that he wanted. This was a female from W.F.Bennett's breeding, out of the famous pitbull dog Bennett Mack & Bennett Queen. The name of this female pup is well known to many Am Staff breeders, ORMSBY'S MADGE. It was the start, a Great start!


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## Firehazard

:goodpost:!!! I don't tire of reading the old stuff.. 

Don't know if it was this thread or another.. I found evidence through studying pre American history and Native American History that both huge red on red spanish fighting bulldogs were here, and blue "pit bull" type dogs were brought here and pictured with tribes in early photography. it is also coming to light that America was actually colonized by the Chinese and most Native American DNA is heavily chinese NOT korean or mongol type inuits. Vikings also explored the N. American Contitent they have viking markings in OKLA KANSAS and over into the Shoshone area where the mistery deepens.. Early explorers say some early tribes had horses before the spanish and desribe tribes as having bulldogs and crosses.


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## redog

You're right Stan. History writes itself, it's up to us to read it. Sorry, I had to stir it up a little. I'm not trying to discount anyone's knowledge but give them something to think about.


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## Firehazard

Yeh good , I love the read and it doesnt bother me a bit, I know they tested blue dogs, and I know they tested blue dogs into red red dogs per Lightners stock on both ends, Searcy and IMPII .. well the proof is in the pudding. Most everyone gets lost in translation not realizing that truth is truth and has no agenda.. it simply is or is not.


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## KMdogs

Firehazard said:


> Yeh good , I love the read and it doesnt bother me a bit, I know they tested blue dogs, and I know they tested blue dogs into red red dogs per Lightners stock on both ends, Searcy and IMPII .. well the proof is in the pudding. Most everyone gets lost in translation not realizing that truth is truth and has no agenda.. it simply is or is not.


That is the main source of problem.. it is all in front of you yet many want to attempt to translate when there isno need as the truth is as it stands... In the pudding.


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## surfer

i dont know about game or not, but i've seen some picture perfect blue dogs. heck, if you look at performance kennels, those are some good lookin dogs. 
i've said on another thread, when you make the decision to own this breed of dog, be it:apbt,am staff, bully, or a blue you tend to drift towards others who do to. because, to the untrained eye, their all 'pit bulls' 

on some of the blues that i've seen, i knew it took pride and dedication, to get them to look like that, so, EVEN THO its a blue they still desrve some respect, whether their game or not. yis


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## KMdogs

surfer said:


> i dont know about game or not, but i've seen some picture perfect blue dogs. heck, if you look at performance kennels, those are some good lookin dogs.
> i've said on another thread, when you make the decision to own this breed of dog, be it:apbt,am staff, bully, or a blue you tend to drift towards others who do to. because, to the untrained eye, their all 'pit bulls'
> 
> on some of the blues that i've seen, i knew it took pride and dedication, to get them to look like that, so, EVEN THO its a blue they still desrve some respect, whether their game or not. yis


If appearance is all your after it is not the apbt you are after rather the ast as function defines all.. you won't find a "blue" Bulldog equal to that of a high end Bulldog as has been covered and point explained over and over here..

Lisa has good dogs, she has great agility and sporting Bulldogs that also do well in the conformation environment.. however it is what it is and proof in the puddin


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## surfer

km dogs, your preachin to the choir, i'll stand by what i said, some of the BLUES that i have seen LOOKED remarkable. didnt say anything bout game. or looked game. even in my greenest moments dont think i would of said that. 

if you got a blue, ripped like arnold, veins poppin out straining at the end of a leash weighing about 70lbs trying to get at you, believe me your not gonna be thinking 'is he game'


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## KMdogs

surfer said:


> km dogs, your preachin to the choir, i'll stand by what i said, some of the BLUES that i have seen LOOKED remarkable. didnt say anything bout game. or looked game. even in my greenest moments dont think i would of said that.
> 
> if you got a blue, ripped like arnold, veins poppin out straining at the end of a leash weighing about 70lbs trying to get at you, believe me your not gonna be thinking 'is he game'


:cheers: :rofl:


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## welder

I read more than I type or talk which isa good thing but yall know your stuff this has been a good 1.KMDogs sent you a pm.


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## surfer

i just noticed after posting on this thread, a lot more little icons under my name, have i done something wrong again?????? if so i'm only trying to partcipate. dont think i been really gettin out of line. or someone tell me what they mean so i'll try to quit.


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## welder

thers another post sumwher about those.somebody'll tell ya what they mean but i dont think its a bad thing.u aint been outta line as far as i'm concerned little strong maybe but that comes from being passionate about what you believe.not suckin up jus being honest.:cheers:


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## redog

Those stars are your reputation. Red=bad... You're building yourself up from the bottom. Keep doin what your doin! Click on your "user cp" in the blue menu bar at the top of the page, its all the way on the left. That's where you see your reputation comments.


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## welder

so how do u give a good rep.now ya no why i read more than i type


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## redog

Under the stars, next to the green dot is a goofy lookin thing I guess it's a scale. Click on it and choose approve or disapprove and leave a comment. Click add to reputation and your done.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

dont know much about this dog but i found a ped for y'all ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [333453] :: G-FORCE'S TWISTER ROM


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## Joe crack

I have blue game dogs in the weight range of 35 to 55 lbs dont know how to post pics but will email pups coming late in the year...


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

Joe crack said:


> I have blue game dogs in the weight range of 35 to 55 lbs dont know how to post pics but will email pups coming late in the year...


how do u know they are game? are they proven in the []?


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## American_Pit13

Joe crack said:


> I have blue game dogs in the weight range of 35 to 55 lbs dont know how to post pics but will email pups coming late in the year...


#1 Don't be trying to peddle your puppies here.
#2 Unless you are fighting dogs then no you do not have even the chance of having blue game dogs. Gamebred possibly (would love to see the ped) but game no.


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## surfer

I'm not gonna say anything to this guy, gonna let the women handle him. 
Dont mean this in a bad way but, 'dude, you got to come with more knowledge than that, because these ladies up here will put you on the right path, and it might hurt your feelings a little, to find out you dont have what you think you have.


Ladies, play nice dont try to break him just educate him.

Yis


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## KW1320

I'm confused, what are you referencing as a game dog because I've always been under the impression your using your animal for hunting, in our area hog Hunting with pits is especially popular. Will someone please clarify?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Black Rabbit

Hunting doesn't make a dog game. The only way to game test a dog is in the [] so unless that's what your doing your dogs aren't game. A gamedog and a game bred dog are two different things as well. I think your just confused as many are. Many people mistake drive for gameness. They are not one in the same.


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## MSK

Joe crack said:


> I have blue game dogs in the weight range of 35 to 55 lbs dont know how to post pics but will email pups coming late in the year...


What exactly makes you think these dogs are game? Do you know the true definition of gameness as it varies for one dog man or woman to another? Just because your dogs are within standard doesn't mean that they are in fact game. I have had many blue dogs that were pit dog weight but that doesn't mean their game or even game bred. There is a possibility you have game bred blue but, just because its game BRED doesn't constitute the same as being game. True gameness is only tested in the [] by most everyone's personal view.

*The following is only my personal view not to be misconstrued with truth.*

Catch dogs are often said to be game. Can they be game? Yes. Are they all game because they'll hunt? NO. Why because depending on how they hunt is how much you know the dog will take. A dog that hunts alone(which is not typical) you can see what that dog is really made of but, one hunting as a pack no you don't see what that dog is made of at all. They may be willing to catch that hog but, willingness or heart does not equal gameness. Most catches go quick and you don't know how much that dog truly would indure. This is why the [] is the only way to test REAL gameness. Although IMO a dog willing to go against a 1000 lb. boar has enough courage in my eyes to be worth something.


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## KMdogs

All youd have to do is see Stan and Myselfs conversations pertaining to game and what constitutes as test and results.. Particularly when it comes to hunting or Guard.. These are not conventional methods by any means however there are unique circumstances that can arise, especially if your going after animals that WILL kill the dog vs continue to flea.. 

Game and what it means, definition is VERY straight forward and everyone can have opinions but the answers of which are VERY straight forward in itself.

As to being proven to be called an American Pit Bull Terrier, there is only ONE method of which to test and that is the fundamental backbone instilled, foundation of which the animal exists.

Gameness is NOT limited to the box as many WANT to believe, IT IS limited in regards to the APBT.. NOT in definition and trait.

It has ALL been said, hell on this very thread as well. Eyes and ears open or shut, that is a choice for yourself to decide.


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## Firehazard

What KM is saying: Game originated not in the box but by hunting wild and feral game.

THe Scientific method of proven game by ******* rules does just that proves game.. proven.. for it was scientifically done.



> Game bred is breeding for game; and the very needed and legal ventures of protecting land with predator and vermin control (pigs included) along with legal hunts of both so said animal groups then your gonna need dogs bred for game to catch and dispatch wild game. You really think not? I'd say there is a certain hog hunter of OFRN stature and its safe to say his dogs are getting gamer. As he selects smart game dogs to wrangle those 250lbs feral hogs and eurasian razorbacks. THEY AINT NO JOKE.. In Okla it was legal to box test a dog against a hog as long as ACO was there to monitor the whole thing. Dunno about now but I can assure you a wild razorback or feral mean hog will LOVE to attack and kill a dog, SO you need to test stock against that so you know they are game enough to handle it. Game terriers such as traditional patterdales, and deckels (real dacshunds or badger dogs) are so much like so called Pitbulls or APBTS themselves because of game.. its a gene that conformation follows no matter which dog you pick if your breeding for game they will have a very similar genetic state as well.


Field test game bred dog is what that would be.. Working is game a bulldog cant work a ranch without being game. That texan developing his own cattle dogs are become very bulldog like because of stock origin of course among his mutts but more because he's picking the game dogs to manage the wild texas cattle herds. 

Dogs can be bred to be game, they can be worked on wild and unruly game in the field and proven themselvs as catch or wild game dogs or dogs of prey and they can be proven game in the [] by all scientific standards. But notice to endure a whirlwind from wild and unruly game a dog must be game to an extent and in that itself is proven stock.


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## American_Pit13

MSK said:


> What exactly makes you think these dogs are game? Do you know the true definition of gameness as it varies for one dog man or woman to another? Just because your dogs are within standard doesn't mean that they are in fact game. I have had many blue dogs that were pit dog weight but that doesn't mean their game or even game bred. There is a possibility you have game bred blue but, just because its game BRED doesn't constitute the same as being game. True gameness is only tested in the [] by most everyone's personal view.
> 
> *The following is only my personal view not to be misconstrued with truth.*
> 
> Catch dogs are often said to be game. Can they be game? Yes. Are they all game because they'll hunt? NO. Why because depending on how they hunt is how much you know the dog will take. A dog that hunts alone(which is not typical) you can see what that dog is really made of but, one hunting as a pack no you don't see what that dog is made of at all. They may be willing to catch that hog but, willingness or heart does not equal gameness. * Most catches go quick and you don't know how much that dog truly would indure.* This is why the [] is the only way to test REAL gameness. * Although IMO a dog willing to go against a 1000 lb. boar has enough courage in my eyes to be worth something*.


:goodpost:


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## 904bullys

As far as blue APBT's dogs being sucessful in the box, Id say no. As far as making decent catch dogs in that sense of "gameness" there are a tons


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## bluefamily

*hehehe*



Firehazard said:


> What KM is saying: Game originated not in the box but by hunting wild and feral game.
> 
> THe Scientific method of proven game by ******* rules does just that proves game.. proven.. for it was scientifically done.


How'd you know that word? "*******" I thought we ********* just said that here about ourselves?


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon

i dont know how to prove or disprove this one but it popped up on one of my FB groups claimin to be a blue game dog.... definitively game bred. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [461326] :: BLUE EVE


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## Firehazard

Yeah seen her before, maybe GD.. ?? hmm.. Impresseive I know .. Like to see her parents.. all her granparents are blk blk.. no dilluted pigment.. she has a gr gran with seal look like KG's Doja.. Usually that sort of blue doesnt pop up out of two blk dogs without some sort of red dillute mutated black gene thus blue. .. She is almost entirely built up off of Ganjas Black Magic so the mutated dillute is possible, but again you need a red dog somewhere..


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## pimpidypimp

If it is as simple as a dilute of black. Then where are all these gamebred blues? I understand genetics and know it is possible with roosters and happens often but have yet to see it in gamedogs. With all the thousands of black dogs bred every year you would think that the defenders of the "blue" color would offer more proof than the standard generic phrase " It's just a dilute of black" or post a link to the Mexican dog "Bellon's CH Soga" as a claim to fame that there are such things as Unicorns.


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## Just Tap Pits

^^^^^^ hahaha aint that the truth.... funny all these "game" blue dogs always seem to have an am staff hid in the ped....


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## Firehazard

Sweeet! He thinks Im defending blue.. .. not quite.. There are two types of blue.. BLUE the obvious which is a diluted hair type. Then there is white red and black hairs all mixed at one degree or the other forming the grey look or blue color. NOW there is Seal which is the original blue dog as the first registered blue dog was Colorados IMPII which was SEAL. .. What we know as blue .. Came from STAFF and Carver. Carver worked with Swinford. And I had a solid white blue nosed Carver boudreaux dog. Big rough cur 85lbs. ONLINE PEDIGREES - Access Denied inbred this dog back into his offspring sired into close relatives. .. NOW those game blue dogs just pop up as said .. the reason is because of a diluted hair gene or because the hair is mixed and "Looks" blue. .. Seal is Seal and can reflect blue or red. Black with NO red dilute reflects silver or blue.  just like in Human hair, and horse hair.


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## Just Tap Pits

I knew u wasn't defending blue fh... 


I just had to throw out what we all know about lots of those blue dogs


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