# iron cross kennels banned from UKC



## wheezie

i forgot to post about this when i first heard about it. did anyone else hear anything about this?


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## Rudy4747

Nope. Do you know why? I really did not like their dogs to much any way.


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## Rudy4747

Just did some research and it is true. Sorry to fans of this guy but he was no good.


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## BittersweetEmbrace

Yeah i knew, and there was another thread that talked about this.

http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/28055-anybody-know-sure.html


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## wheezie

man i gotta start getting on more often lol


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## Elvisfink

Some really Like's Roman they even made a site about him and his Iron Cross Kennel. IRON CROSS KENNELS LIES EXPOSED There's some funny reading on that site.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Oh wow! No beuno dude, no beuno... it just goes to prove everything we've been screaming about in the past when his kennel comes up on this board.


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## gamer

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> Oh wow! No beuno dude, no beuno... it just goes to prove everything we've been screaming about in the past when his kennel comes up on this board.


so true! I am glad UKC is taking action and hope they dont stop with these guys



> Currently their breeding program consists of more Presa Canario blood than pitbull: view these two studs from Iron Cross Kennels and see for yourself. If you are familiar with Presa Canario's then it should be very obvious. VERY OBVIOUS!


No poop sherlock lol I think this is the start to a very good thing if UKC keeps taking these bully kennels down that are not on the up and up.


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## gamer

I wonder if the ABKC will let him in


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## Indigo Bully Connection

The ABKC needs to follow suite and pull all papers and not allow any more dogs to be registered with that kennel in the ped. I'll be very disappointed in them if they do not.


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## gamer

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> The ABKC needs to follow suite and pull all papers and not allow any more dogs to be registered with that kennel in the ped. I'll be very disappointed in them if they do not.


This is gonna be a huge mess. I think a lot of people are going to be mad when they get their papers pulled, of course how could you not tell those dogs were mixed?


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## buzhunter

gamer said:


> I wonder if the ABKC will let him in


Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need ADBA or UKC reg to reg with ABKC?


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## 9361

It's about darn freaking time!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did anyone read this part on that website exposing them.


> PLEASE REALIZE THAT IRON CROSS KENNELS IS LOCATED IN A TRAILER PARK.


 LMFAO!!!!!!!!! That's the funniest thing I've seen all day.

This is great news... way to step up the game UKC... job well done.


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## gamer

Shes Got Heart said:


> It's about darn freaking time!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did anyone read this part on that website exposing them. LMFAO!!!!!!!!! That's the funniest thing I've seen all day.
> 
> This is great news... way to step up the game UKC... job well done.


lol I thought they lived in some sort of mansion type home


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## 9361

gamer said:


> This is gonna be a huge mess. I think a lot of people are going to be mad when they get their papers pulled, of course how could you not tell those dogs were mixed?


Um because some people are just... well you know...


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## 9361

gamer said:


> lol I thought they lived in some sort of mansion type home


I know I always pictured that too lmao


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## gamer

lol he is going to try to do business through this guy it looks like. He sends you to this link and those are pretty much the same poop he had
Vegas Iron Pit Bulls::Las Vegas Pit Bull Breeder:: XXL Pit Bulls


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## Black Rabbit

Wow all the lies, stories and exagerations. Peace out ICK.


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## 9361

Where are all the ICK defenders now?! lol


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## Xiahko

Personally I wouldn't buy a dog from online anyway.
I'd like to actually see the dog in person,before I committed to anything.


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## noodlesgranny

gamer said:


> of course how could you not tell those dogs were mixed?


They were probably targeting people who were getting their first pit and don't know the difference. A few years ago I would have had a hard time telling the difference myself. I'm still learning and I have a great teacher--Her name is American_pit13 (Holly). She is patient and doesn't laugh if I ask a dumb question. Plus everyone on this forum. I feel sorry for those poor dogs. When their papers get pulled what do you think is going to happen to them when the owners that bought the dogs for breeding or showing find out that they can't do either? Just a thought.


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## gamer

noodlesgranny said:


> They were probably targeting people who were getting their first pit and don't know the difference. A few years ago I would have had a hard time telling the difference myself. I'm still learning and I have a great teacher--Her name is American_pit13 (Holly). She is patient and doesn't laugh if I ask a dumb question. Plus everyone on this forum. I feel sorry for those poor dogs. When their papers get pulled what do you think is going to happen to them when the owners that bought the dogs for breeding or showing find out that they can't do either? Just a thought.


They will register them ABKC or CKC and pump out more pups. The Bully crowd will love them


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN

can't wait to get mine


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## coppermare

So does this mean any line with "iron" in the pedigree will be booted out or that it's crossed with another breed like preso's??


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## Elvisfink

It means that anyone with a contemporary Iron Cross Kennels dog owns a really expensive MUTT!!! Now all the UKC needs to do is expose Dave Wilson and his MUTTS!


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## American_Pit13

gamer said:


> They will register them ABKC or CKC and pump out more pups. The Bully crowd will love them


I am not sure about that. Even a large majority of the bully world dislikes this kennel and what they produce.


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## gamer

Elvisfink said:


> It means that anyone with a contemporary Iron Cross Kennels dog owns a really expensive MUTT!!! Now all the UKC needs to do is expose Dave Wilson and his MUTTS!


:goodpost:


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## Elvisfink

Holly I agree, but I think most Bully breeders hated ICK because they were getting more money for their dogs than any other breeders. Now I think all the Bully breeders hate ICK because they got caught!! All the XXL Bully Breeders are just lying about their dogs an now they are on the hot seat and I love it! I don’t hate Bullies at all, I just don’t want them called Pit Bulls. Now the UKC needs to exposes Dave Wilson and his breeding practices.


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## American_Pit13

Elvisfink said:


> Now the UKC needs to exposes Dave Wilson and his breeding practices.


I don't see how that hasn't happened since he admitted everything himself... How has the UKC not caught wind



Elvisfink said:


> I just don't want them called Pit Bulls.


 I am guilty of that one. I call all my dogs pitbulls.

I don't care for huge dogs that are nothing close to an APBT being called pitbulls.


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## gamer

because he retracted it and people choose to believe the retraction rather than the truth.


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## coppermare

Elvisfink said:


> It means that anyone with a contemporary Iron Cross Kennels dog owns a really expensive MUTT!!! Now all the UKC needs to do is expose Dave Wilson and his MUTTS!


But what determines a mutt? How many generations of pedigree from an organization like UKC, APBT, ADBA or others does it require before it's no longer a mutt?


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## Elvisfink

............


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## Elvisfink

coppermare said:


> But what determines a mutt? How many generations of pedigree from an organization like UKC, APBT, ADBA or others does it require before it's no longer a mutt?


.
Any introduction of a different breed to a pure breed dog is considered a mutt.

It's the other way around. How many generations after the introduction of a different breed to a pure breed dog does it make new breed.


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## aus_staffy

Elvisfink said:


> .
> Any introduction of a different breed to a pure breed dog is considered a mutt.
> 
> It's the other way around. How many generations of introducing a different breed to a pure breed dog does it make new breed.


:goodpost: Precisely. You beat me to it.


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## Elvisfink

God only knows how many generations it took for John Swinford to create a consistent looking Bandog. The key factor here is that DVM John Swinford openly admitted to crossing breeds to make a new breed. He NEVER called them Pit Bulls!!!


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## coppermare

Elvisfink said:


> .
> Any introduction of a different breed to a pure breed dog is considered a mutt.
> 
> It's the other way around. How many generations of the introducing a different breed to a pure breed dog does it make new breed.


I guess AKC could answer that. It's been done a lot in the past. 
So if an APBT has Amstaff blood in it's lineage then it's considered a mutt? Or the other way around?


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## Elvisfink

coppermare said:


> I guess AKC could answer that. It's been done a lot in the past.
> So if an APBT has Amstaff blood in it's lineage then it's considered a mutt? Or the other way around?


That depends on when we are talking. Are we talking mid 1930 or are we talking 2010?

If we're talking 1920's then we're talking Pit Bulls were tested an proven that were entered into the AKC as Staffordshire Terriers. Here's an early AmStaff and one that many of todays AST lines are based on. Yes, AST were proven and tested dogs at one time. If we're talking contemporary UKC regestered American Pit Bull Terriers than we are talk daul registard AST's. In many peoples opinion an APBT with AST blood is a mutt.










Here's a little AST history for you.

The Tacoma Line was developed through the breeding activities of Charles Doyle of Winamac Indiana. The great dog, Tacoma Jack, was whelped in 1927. He was owned by Al Brown. Using Tacoma Jack and Brown's Judy, Mr. Brown produced a number of outstanding dogs. Several of these, including Tacoma Jack's Replica, were sent to Charles Doyle. Using Tacoma Jack's Replica and other Tacoma dogs, and with liberal infusions of Corvino blood through such great dogs as Corvino's Braddock and Corvinos's Shorty, Mr. Doyle produced a long line of courage and sound dogs. Some of the best included Ch. Young Joe Braddock, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster I, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster II, Ch. Kane Tacoma Blaze, and Ch. Tacoma All-A-Blaze. Ch. Tacoma Frivolous Sal, owned by Howard and Janice Hadley, won the National Specialty in 1954. Subsequently Tacoma crosses have been important in all other major AST lines.

Mr. Doyle, who was active in the National Club both as a board member and long-time Secretary, *strongly believed in keeping the Staff as Game and Functional as possible*. Of all the AST lines, the Tacoma dogs have easily the most outstanding record for courage and capability.

Taken from:
The American Staffordshire Terrier (The Little Red Book)
By Dr. Richard Pasco
Printed in 1977


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## j-crash

from what i read all dogs that were on the ground and registered will carry their papers... all puppies that have not dropped yet will not be allowed to be registered with the uks.

i don't know where people started talking about dogs having their papers pulled, maybe i missed something?


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## Elvisfink

j-crash said:


> from what i read all dogs that were on the ground and registered will carry their papers... all puppies that have not dropped yet will not be allowed to be registered with the uks.
> 
> i don't know where people started talking about dogs having their papers pulled, maybe i missed something?


I don't know what the UKS, but I'm sure it's a typo and yes the UKC is talking about pulling all papers on dogs from several well known sires and dams registered by Iron Cross Kennels. The UKC has also banned all future regesties by ICK. Yes, you missed quite a bit, but if you do a search on GP you'll catch up quickly. In my opinion all ICK dog papers from the UKC should be pulled! *Caveat Emptor!*


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## gamer

Roman Vaughn, Iron Cross Kennels Review | Rip-off Report #546930

lol



> Report: Roman Vaughn, Iron Cross Kennels
> 
> Reported By: Paul Wilson ( California)
> United States of America
> Roman Vaughn - Iron Cross Kennels - Ickunderground.yuku.com - IronCrossKennels.com, Iron Cross Pitbulls scammer, stole deposit, dogs on steroids, mixed breed dogs(presa/pits), unsanitary, Lies about stats Internet
> *General Comment... Rip offs...
> 
> 1
> Author
> 7
> Consumer
> 0
> Employee
> Respond to this report!
> 
> Victim of this person/company?
> 
> Remove a Ripoff Report?
> Roman Vaughn, Iron Cross Kennels
> 
> Internet California
> United States of America
> Phone: 909-379-2662
> Web Address: www.ironcrosskennels.com
> 
> Category: Miscellaneous Companies
> 
> Submitted: Tuesday, December 29, 2009
> Last posting: Tuesday, June 08, 2010
> I just want the world to know the truth about the fake
> a*****e scammer of a "Pitbull breeder"
> named Roman Vaughn from Iron Cross Kennels , Iron Cross Kennels, (WWW.IRONCROSSKENNELS.COM), and his idiotic side kick Nick. When I first visited the Iron cross Kennels
> website, I was impressed by the pictures of the dogs, as well as the quality of the website. I had
> never seen pitbulls that looked like those.
> I contacted Roman Vaughn of Iron Cross Kennels initially through email. Roman
> did not respond to my email, so I called him up.
> 
> He told me about an incredible breeding he had going with a large
> female named Mazeratti and his dogs Stalefish and Disciple. Roman was so desperate for this breeding to
> happen he had been letting both of his studs Disciple and Stalefish breed to
> Mazeratti while she was in heat. Weird! (She still did not take because of the steroids he had given her.) I told him I was very interested in his Iron Cross Kennels
> bloodline and wanted to purchase a puppy from the Mazeratti Breeding.
> Roman Vaughn gave me an address to send a $2000.00 deposit to. My wife thought I was crazy for sending a
> $2000.00 deposit to a kennel who was already listed on Ripoff Report by other
> people who had been taken advantage of.
> Roman Vaughn insured me that Iron Cross Kennels does "good business",
> and that the other Rip Off Report had been put there by jealous breeders. LOL, YEAH RIGHT. So I sent the 2000, 00. Dollar money order to
> Roman Vaughn and scheduled a trip where I could visit Iron Cross Kennels. I was very excited.
> When I went to visit Iron Cross Kennels, I wasn't
> impressed AT ALL. Roman and Iron Cross Kennels
> are located in Southern California at
> the top of a filthy hill. Roman lives in
> a shabby little shack at the top of the hill.
> Almost like a trailer. Everything
> about this set-up screamed "Trailer Trash Kennels". Speaking
> of kennels, although I did see some kennels, there were no dogs in them. Roman was keeping ALL of his dogs in very
> small crates. The type of crate that you
> use when taking dogs to the Airport. They
> looked miserable. It was some of the
> worst conditions I have ever seen dogs kept in.
> I felt really sad for these animals.
> I have contacted animal control about this issue. There was this guy named Nick there, and he
> was running around doing everything Roman told him to, like some sort of a man servant. That really tripped me out. Nick kept telling me how great the ICK blood
> line was,and that the other kennels could not compete with Iron Cross Kennels. That got extremely annoying very quickly. Roman eventually told him to shut up, and Nick happily complied. That was a blessing. They showed me a dog called Disciple who was
> semi impressive, although his crate was so tiny I couldn't believe a dog his
> size could fit in it. How sad. They
> showed me the female Mazeratti who was semi impressive as well, (although not
> nearly as large as they claimed on their website. ) They then showed me a dog named Stalefish,
> who was definitely mixed with Presa Canario.
> (I should know I have been breeding Presa Canario's for the last 6
> years.) Everything about Stalefish
> screamed Presa Canario, his markings, his stance, his walk, and his
> structure. I told Roman this as well,
> and Roman himself said that it was rumored that his father Escalade, was a
> Presa Canario, but that he did not believe it.
> B******T! It was obvious as h***. Stalefish had every Presa trait in the book!!
> Roman Vaughn must
> know how to take really good pictures because his dogs were no where near as
> impressive in person. At this point I
> told Roman I was not comfortable with doing business with him, and requested a
> refund of my 2000.00 dollars. Roman told
> me that Iron Cross Kennels deposits are transferable to another breeding but
> not refundable. Hey the rules are the
> rules so I agreed, and left.
> 
> Roman later called me and told me that the Mazeratti
> breeding did not take. (BIG SURPRISE< THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GIVE THEM STEROIDS, EVEN 2 STUDS COULD NOT GET THE JOB DONE), He then told me I
> could have a puppy from a Stalefish breeding .
> Stalefish looked like a presa canario when I saw him in person. What Roman did not know is that I have been
> breeding Presa canario's for the last 6 years.
> I know a Presa or a Pitbull/Presa mix when I see one. Especially one this obvious. No other dog has those markings but a Presa
> Canario. DUH!!!! Stalefish could enter a
> Presa Canario competition right now and no one would question him. LOL. I told Roman just keep my money, I do not want a Presa/Pitbull mix.
> After doing some research by talking to people/kennels that had done
> business with Roman, and bought dogs from him, I began to learn the terrible
> truth. Roman Vaugh and Iron Cross
> Kennels have been giving their dogs steroids and mixing breeds. This is why he deleted all of the other kennels from his links page.
> Here are the facts I learned about Roman Vaughn and Iron
> Cross Kennels.
> 
> The female that I was interested in Mazeratti
> was unable to have pups because the massive amount of steroids Roman had been
> given her so that she can achieve her size.
> Mazeratti also suffers from a prolapsed
> uterus. Roman already had tried to breed
> her three times and it never worked because of the steroids and the prolapsed
> uterus. He knew this breeding with
> Mazeratti would not work when he took my 2,000.00 deposit
> 
> Disciple is on steroids, and his stats on
> the website are false. Most of Disciple
> daughters cannot be bred and suffer from a prolapsed Uterus.
> 
> Roman Vaughn keeps most of his dogs on
> steroids.
> Most of Iron Cross Kennels dogs are kept in
> very tiny unsanitary kennels. FILTHY!!!!
> Iron Cross Kennels accepts deposits on
> breedings they know will not take!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Roman Vaughn and Iron Cross Kennels are now
> basing their kennel on a dog STALEFISH that is obviously mixed with a Presa Canario, but on his
> website, www.ironcrosskennels.com
> he claims he does not mix breeds to get size.
> HAHAHAHA!!!!
> The other male that he produced is called
> Moran, and he is a Presa as you can get as well.
> 
> Moran does not even look mixed, he just
> looks like a pure Presa. Any Presa
> Canario Breeder would agree after they have saw Stalefish and Moran. Do your research guys, its obvious. Like
> really really obvious!
> 
> Roman Vaughn, Iron Cross Kennels is a liar
> and a scam artist BEWARE!!
> It wasn't worth the 2000 he stole from me
> so I let him keep it
> 
> Hey Roman if I don't need a Presa, I
> already have a backyard full of them you dumb ass lying inbred skinhead p***k!!
> 
> I am not surprised that Roman Vaughns name
> was on the muglestons pitbull site endorsing them because he is a scammer just
> like them. Here is the link:
> 
> (((Redacted)))
> He must have learned how to do business
> from the muglestons as well.
> 
> Hey if
> you would like to buy an expensive mixed
> presa/pit from a trashy trailer park type of guy that lies About everything on
> his website, DOESN'T TAKE CARE OF HIS DOGS, GIVES THEM STEROIDS and RIPS YOU
> OFF; THEN I RECOMMEND ROMAN VAUGHN OF
> IRON CROSS KENNELS.
> 
> WWW.IRONCROSSKENNELS.COM
> 
> Here is Roman Vaughn's information, BEWARE
> Cell: 909-379-2662
> 
> WWW.IRONCROSSKENNELS.COM
> 
> [email protected]


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## performanceknls

:rofl: yeah I read that, how funny


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## 9361

When the American Staffordshire Terrier was created, it was only a name change. There was nothing added. The dogs may have been bred for exaggerated features and show ring. But thats basically just a new bloodline. Even APBT's very in look and temperament through bloodlines. I am not one to agree that a dual reg pitterstaff is a mix breed. If nothing was ever added to the blood, than American Staffies are APBT's. Thats my opinion on the whole situation. Amstaff is just a name for a different style of pit bull in my opinion. Although I will call them as such.


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## 9361

When will Mugglestons papers be pulled?


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## boogiebot

Shes Got Heart said:


> When will Mugglestons papers be pulled?


lets hope sooner than later


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## Black Rabbit

Shes Got Heart said:


> When will Mugglestons papers be pulled?


:clap::clap: The words I wanna say about that kennel would shurley get me banned but OMG do I feel you on that for real. I had a stupid guy with a fat dog from them that wanted to fight his dog with my beautiful Dosia and I had a bunch of not so nice words for him.


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## coppermare

Shes Got Heart said:


> When the American Staffordshire Terrier was created, it was only a name change. There was nothing added. The dogs may have been bred for exaggerated features and show ring. But thats basically just a new bloodline. Even APBT's very in look and temperament through bloodlines. I am not one to agree that a dual reg pitterstaff is a mix breed. If nothing was ever added to the blood, than American Staffies are APBT's. Thats my opinion on the whole situation. Amstaff is just a name for a different style of pit bull in my opinion. Although I will call them as such.


I'd have to agree with this. And everything came from somewhere and has been mixed with so much "other" blood it's diluted to the point of everything and everyone is a "mutt" really. Just as we are. LOL
I use to laugh at people that boasted their horse "has Three Bars" in their pedigree, well he got bred to just about anything and everything. He is a foundation sire but not recognized as foundation blood. Because he's not a QH. Or my horse is out of so and so when it was so far back in the line that he may have one tenth of one drop of blood in him. I know some registries that is devoted to preservation goes back four generations and some ten. Either case if certain blood is there for all those generations it's not only registered but foundation. I'd think a UKC or ADBA or whatever or AS or APBT would be the same.


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## ralford08

The AST and APBT for the most part are the same dog, except for one key factor that makes an APBT, GAMENESS. It's about the same as having a beagle bred for the show ring and a beagle bred for field trials. One is bred for looks and the other is bred for what the breed was intended for.


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## davidfitness83

ralford08 said:


> The AST and APBT for the most part are the same dog, except for one key factor that makes an APBT, GAMENESS. It's about the same as having a beagle bred for the show ring and a beagle bred for field trials. One is bred for looks and the other is bred for what the breed was intended for.


How can the dogs be the same if they serve two different functions? it's like saying a labrador and a hogdog are the same but they do different jobs.:hammer:


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## bullydogla

davidfitness83 said:


> How can the dogs be the same if they serve two different functions? it's like saying a labrador and a hogdog are the same but they do different jobs.:hammer:


Not the same.
Certain traits are bred in from certain dogs,( hard mouth, smaller size, more correct head, etc) Some of these traits are more important to one job over the other. Doesn't deviate enough from the standard to make one a different breed. Function isn't the only qualification of a breed, I'm sure some Huskies have never pulled a sled. Doesn't make them poodles.


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## davidfitness83

bullydogla said:


> Not the same.
> Certain traits are bred in from certain dogs,( hard mouth, smaller size, more correct head, etc) Some of these traits are more important to one job over the other. Doesn't deviate enough from the standard to make one a different breed. Function isn't the only qualification of a breed, I'm sure some Huskies have never pulled a sled. Doesn't make them poodles.


Have you seen what an amstaff looks like compared to a APBT? Or how they differ in temperament? How can anyone claim an amstaff is the same as an APBT?


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN

bullydogla said:


> Not the same.
> Certain traits are bred in from certain dogs,( hard mouth, smaller size, more correct head, etc) Some of these traits are more important to one job over the other. Doesn't deviate enough from the standard to make one a different breed. Function isn't the only qualification of a breed, I'm sure some Huskies have never pulled a sled. Doesn't make them poodles.


don't knock the poodle they hold the record in the ukc in weight pull for body weight.


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## davidfitness83

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> don't knock the poodle they hold the record in the ukc in weight pull for body weight.


Hell a poodle is top 3 of the smartest breeds in the world. Are you serious about that by the way?


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## gamer

coppermare said:


> I'd have to agree with this. And everything came from somewhere and has been mixed with so much "other" blood it's diluted to the point of everything and everyone is a "mutt" really. Just as we are. LOL
> I use to laugh at people that boasted their horse "has Three Bars" in their pedigree, well he got bred to just about anything and everything. He is a foundation sire but not recognized as foundation blood. Because he's not a QH. Or my horse is out of so and so when it was so far back in the line that he may have one tenth of one drop of blood in him. I know some registries that is devoted to preservation goes back four generations and some ten. Either case if certain blood is there for all those generations it's not only registered but foundation. I'd think a UKC or ADBA or whatever or AS or APBT would be the same.


Which is why the breeding of the apbt really needs to be left to the people who are dedicated to preserving the breed, who can line breed and bring out the good traits and know enough not to line breed to close on certain lines.

This is a decent pedigree not all scattered

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [247931] :: KLUTING'S THUNDER


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## Elvisfink

ralford08 said:


> The AST and APBT for the most part are the same dog, except for one key factor that makes an APBT, GAMENESS. It's about the same as having a beagle bred for the show ring and a beagle bred for field trials. One is bred for looks and the other is bred for what the breed was intended for.


Actually an AKC registered American Staffordshire Terrier that has no UKC blood in it ped is no longer an APBT. That AST has been out of the APBT gene pool since 1936 and breed to a different standard and for a different purpose. Ask 99% of AST owners and breeders if their dog is a Pit Bull they'll proudly say "No, it's an AmStaff". You also won't see AKC registered Breeders trying to sell their AST's a Pit Bulls. The late Jane Rebello a rather well know AST breed back in the 70's & 80's was always very bothered by Dual Registered Dogs. She said those were Pit Bulls and not an AST.


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## ralford08

Genetically the AST and APBT are the same, but in my personal opinion they are not. I don't like anything that is bred for show and show only. If I wanted to spend money on something that just looks good I would buy a statue. Most breeds of dogs in the world are capable of doing more than one task, look at the APBT and all the different jobs it does. That's why you have different bloodlines in a breed, becuase people desire certain traits more than others so they breed their dogs accordingly.


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## coppermare

davidfitness83 said:


> Have you seen what an amstaff looks like compared to a APBT? Or how they differ in temperament? How can anyone claim an amstaff is the same as an APBT?


I see the difference in looks now but from what I'm learning they started out the same dog. The same bloodlines. Then they were developed over a period of time differently. This is what is confusing to me now. If they all had the same blood to begin with then how can someone say some are mutts while others are not. Unless of course somewhere people mixed another breed entirely into the mix. I've been researching (or trying to it's really confusing to me) bloodlines and beginnings of the "bullies" and such but theres just not enough info with so many different registeries and so many different opinions and therories. I read something today that led me to believe some of the very old lines did indeed have blue in them and the "game people" culled them even though they had a lot of gameness in them while the people that went towards Amstaffs and AKC kept them therefore it was bred out.


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## davidfitness83

ralford08 said:


> Genetically the AST and APBT are the same, but in my personel opinion they are not. I don't like anything that is bred for show and show only. If I wanted to spend money on something that just looks good I would buy a statue. Most breeds of dogs in the world are capable of doing more than one task, look at the APBT and all the different jobs it does. That's why you have different bloodlines in a breed, becuase people desire certain traits more than others so they breed their dogs accordingly.


Genetically Manny Paquiao and my self are the same because we are both human but that doesn't mean I am a proffesional boxer.

All dogs share the same DNA i tink 98% but someone please feel free to correct me on this number, for the most part a toy poodle and a Central Asian Ovcharka have very similar DNA but that doesn't mean they are the same.


----------



## coppermare

I'm finding this website very interesting. And from the looks of some of the old pics, and pics I'm seeing in pedigrees, there seemed to be a HUGE variation in breed standard.

APBT network Galleries


----------



## coppermare

gamer said:


> Which is why the breeding of the apbt really needs to be left to the people who are dedicated to preserving the breed, who can line breed and bring out the good traits and know enough not to line breed to close on certain lines.
> 
> This is a decent pedigree not all scattered
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [247931] :: KLUTING'S THUNDER


That could be good or bad I guess. So many people have so many different opinions as to their likes, dislikes, and needs. We are human you know, no matter what a standard is. If quarterhorses were left to only those wanting to preserve the breed which would we pick to preserve it...the one's that want only the ole bulldog type, steeldust type horse which they consider foundation and probably could not do various other sports demanded of them now days or the appendix type people that believe introducing the TB blood gives them that athletic ability to compete in jumping, larger barrel racing patterns, faster times, and various other sports demanding a leaner taller build??


----------



## FloorCandy

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> don't knock the poodle they hold the record in the ukc in weight pull for body weight.


There's a famous sled guy who ran a team of standard poodles in the Ididarod many times. They were outlawed in the race after a few years because it was deemed cruel as they do not have a coat designed to protect them in those elements, and I believe several died or lost toes and such. I personally don't care for poodles, but they are excellent working dogs, and extremely versatile.

I have found that the general consensus of akc people is that the ASTs and APBTs are the same breed (most likely actual AST breeders would disagree, but people in other breeds are who I'm referring to). My grandmother, who was an akc show breeder told me they are the same, and that APBTs were dogs that had no papers because they were from fighting lines, so a fake registry (UKC) was created to register them. She thoroughly believes this, she is not just saying it to be mean or difficult, as do her friends, and they think that UKC is a crap registry. I think one of the reasons for this bias is that the AKC seems to attract an older crowd and they were passing this kind of info on based on word of mouth, because when they were learning there was internet to easily and quickly research things. Even the younger generation probably believes some of this stuff because it has been "common knowledge" for so long that no one would think to question it. My grandmother in her 80s, as well as several of her friends in the same age group, plus my handler trainer who is also in his 80s all believe AST and APBT are the same.


----------



## buzhunter

Hard not to consider them a "crap registry" when they let this kind of crap go on and on.


----------



## william williamson

their picture is that of a bunch of pigs tagged as pit bulls.
not A fan of bullies,where I come from anything over 60# on purpose is a waste and serves no purpose other that to be sat next to the escalade,with the owner ganged down in flash and bling,with A "LOOK AT ME" tattoo across their forehead.
every time I see one it's not with the nice mommy and her stroller or granny out for A walk.it's always with someone portrayin the gangster clown on the other end od the leash.
and them 3 guys,deff clownsta's.


----------



## LionsGate

For those that are interested...

Iron Cross was banned because a DNA challenge was filed on a litter that was registered to Roman Vaughn, owner of Iron Cross Kennels. The DNA challenge proved that the sire he listed on the paperwork was not the actual sire of the litter. 

It had nothing to do with the UKC questioning whether their dogs lineage were "true" or not. 

I know this for fact, because I filed the DNA challenge. And I may be filing another one very soon. 

Also, for those who want to bash on all "XL Bully Breeders" - note that some of us are very up front about the fact that there was mixing that went on in pretty much every bloodline that is considered XL or XXL at some point. There are those of us who are willing to admit what WAS done, and are trying to move forward and bring the look back to the dogs, rather than continue the problem and breed more bandogges into our blood....to that point, I say this - one of the first APBT's I ever owned was a 42lb red/rednose game bred rescue. One of the best dogs I ever owned. I know full well what a true APBT is. And I love everything about them. But I wanted them on a larger frame, without sacrificing the movement, agility, drive, or attitude of the true APBT...I certainly have not yet perfected my vision, but I am working on it.

Oh, and if you don't believe my dogs can move, check my YouTube - Search 'lionsgatekennels'.


----------



## Elvisfink

LionsGate said:


> For those that are interested...
> 
> Iron Cross was banned because a DNA challenge was filed on a litter that was registered to Roman Vaughn, owner of Iron Cross Kennels. The DNA challenge proved that the sire he listed on the paperwork was not the actual sire of the litter.
> 
> It had nothing to do with the UKC questioning whether their dogs lineage were "true" or not.
> 
> I know this for fact, because I filed the DNA challenge. And I may be filing another one very soon.
> 
> Also, for those who want to bash on all "XL Bully Breeders" - note that some of us are very up front about the fact that there was mixing that went on in pretty much every bloodline that is considered XL or XXL at some point. There are those of us who are willing to admit what WAS done, and are trying to move forward and bring the look back to the dogs, rather than continue the problem and breed more bandogges into our blood....to that point, I say this - one of the first APBT's I ever owned was a 42lb red/rednose game bred rescue. One of the best dogs I ever owned. I know full well what a true APBT is. And I love everything about them. But I wanted them on a larger frame, without sacrificing the movement, agility, drive, or attitude of the true APBT...I certainly have not yet perfected my vision, but I am working on it.
> 
> Oh, and if you don't believe my dogs can move, check my YouTube - Search 'lionsgatekennels'.


That's all fine and dandy, buy you're no different than the rest of the XXL peddlers. First off your "Kennel" is based on mutts from ICK. You've also admitted that there was mixing of breeds in you desired dog, but you're still advertising your mixed breed XXL Bully's as Pit Bulls!! THEY ARE NOT PIT BULLS!!! You are selling AmBullies a yet unstandardized dog in my Opinion! No I don't hate Bullies I just Hate when they are sold as Pit Bulls.

P.S. Your dogs might move, but the question is "How Long can they Move for?"


----------



## buzhunter

LionsGate said:


> For those that are interested...
> 
> Iron Cross was banned because a DNA challenge was filed on a litter that was registered to Roman Vaughn, owner of Iron Cross Kennels. The DNA challenge proved that the sire he listed on the paperwork was not the actual sire of the litter.
> 
> It had nothing to do with the UKC questioning whether their dogs lineage were "true" or not.
> 
> I know this for fact, because I filed the DNA challenge. And I may be filing another one very soon.
> 
> Also, for those who want to bash on all "XL Bully Breeders" - note that some of us are very up front about the fact that there was mixing that went on in pretty much every bloodline that is considered XL or XXL at some point. There are those of us who are willing to admit what WAS done, and are trying to move forward and bring the look back to the dogs, rather than continue the problem and breed more bandogges into our blood....to that point, I say this - one of the first APBT's I ever owned was a 42lb red/rednose game bred rescue. One of the best dogs I ever owned. I know full well what a true APBT is. And I love everything about them. But I wanted them on a larger frame, without sacrificing the movement, agility, drive, or attitude of the true APBT...I certainly have not yet perfected my vision, but I am working on it.
> 
> Oh, and if you don't believe my dogs can move, check my YouTube - Search 'lionsgatekennels'.


So, what are you going to call them when you get it perfected? and how do you feel about the UKC not questioning the purity of these dogs?


----------



## dixieland

And I do think that they advertise their dogs as xl pitbulls,not xl bullies.Not hating,just making a comment


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## NorCalTim

wheezie said:


> i forgot to post about this when i first heard about it. did anyone else hear anything about this?


All American Bullies are mixed a breed.:hammer:


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

NorCalTim said:


> All American Bullies are mixed a breed.:hammer:


no, they're not :hammer:


----------



## NorCalTim

coppermare said:


> But what determines a mutt? How many generations of pedigree from an organization like UKC, APBT, ADBA or others does it require before it's no longer a mutt?


It does not matter how many. 
It will always be a mutt.:rofl:


----------



## NorCalTim

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> no, they're not :hammer:


A pure bred Bully is mixed bred American Pit Bull TERRIER.

If it is not a Terrier, it is not an APBT. :hammer:
The American Bully is not a Terrier. It can not swim with seals and do all of the things a pure bred Bull Dog can do.

The American Bully in NOT A PIT BULL, its an American Bully.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

I know my dogs are not mutts so if mine aren't it MUST mean there are some people out there who did not get swindled...


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## Indigo Bully Connection

until you do the countless hours of research on my dogs personal pedigrees, be hands on with my dogs... i would reccomend you to keep your lips shut about this assumption. 

Never called my dogs pit bulls because they have that heavy am staff influence.


----------



## NorCalTim

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> The ABKC needs to follow suite and pull all papers and not allow any more dogs to be registered with that kennel in the ped. I'll be very disappointed in them if they do not.


What?
Isn't that an American Bully Registry?


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

I appologise for being snippy about this...we've just had a surplus of bashing goin on recently and I've been pretty irritated about it... if you have already got bent with me before i post this, i understand.

For me, I have been working with bullies for the last 7 years and I chose my dogs based off of what the dogs original foundation... what they were, not what they have become. I still call my dogs Bullies because of the bloodline alone, but my dogs are like a joke walking into these bully shows.
My dogs can move, my dogs have zero excess in weight, and they are all porportionate...well, maybe their heads are on the large side lol...


all of my dogs are 18 inches in height 
My male is only 50 pounds 
my eldest female is 48
one of the newest girls is 43 
and the other girl is 50

I don't force my dogs to become something that they are not buy doing everything in my power to add mass because for me, it's not necessary. I chose my dogs because they would excell in the UKC show ring and are less driven than a real APBT which would not fit in my life style at this time. My dogs are dog aggressive like an apbt, but just less work.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

NorCalTim said:


> What?
> Isn't that an American Bully Registry?


yeah, it is a bully registry, but in order to have ABKC paper work you must have UKC (or another reputable registry) paper work to send in, kinda like how ADBA dogs were able to go UKC and vise versa. From what I understand the ABKC was not created to give papers away to everyone, just to acknowlege what the breed transitioned to not to slap papers on dogs with bogus history.


----------



## NorCalTim

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> until you do the countless hours of research on my dogs personal pedigrees, be hands on with my dogs... i would reccomend you to keep your lips shut about this assumption.
> 
> Never called my dogs pit bulls because they have that heavy am staff influence.


I have people call me who breed "Pit Bulls" who do not even know what a "Pit Bull" is. They breed American Bullies. There is a big difference. I am OK with the American Bully as long as my line is not bred with it. Old school dog men were rolling in their graves when the Bullys came into play.

The APBT is bred for the hidden trait of gameness. Only when you have dogs with a pedigree from people you trust from old school winning dogs, do you have an APBT. American Bullies and Staffies are great dogs, but they are not pure bred APBTs'. 
Try reading some old books. You can not go wrong with any thing from Greenwood.

I have been breeding pure bred Bull dogs for over 10 yrs. They are 2 different breeds. :rofl:


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

I'm well versed in the true APBT, bulldogs are my passion, and have been for the last 15 years. They were made a taboo issue when I was younger, so that gave me my innitial jump start in researching this dog. Of course before the huge out break of the internet and certainly the bullies. The APBT lead me to the right dogs for my life style.


----------



## American_Pit13

davidfitness83 said:


> Have you seen what an amstaff looks like compared to a APBT? Or how they differ in temperament? How can anyone claim an amstaff is the same as an APBT?


How can you deny that they are the same? They are the same. One for Show one for Work, but the same none the less.

I have been around both and they do not differ in temperament nor does the Amstaff have less DA than the APBT.

They defiantly differ but they can not change from being the same blood unless another breed has been mixed in.

All the comparisons you are making are WAY different than the APBT/AMSTAFF issue. You are comparing completely different breeds of dogs, not one breed that was split into 2 breeds and styles.


----------



## NorCalTim

Shes Got Heart said:


> When the American Staffordshire Terrier was created, it was only a name change. There was nothing added. The dogs may have been bred for exaggerated features and show ring. But thats basically just a new bloodline. Even APBT's very in look and temperament through bloodlines. I am not one to agree that a dual reg pitterstaff is a mix breed. If nothing was ever added to the blood, than American Staffies are APBT's. Thats my opinion on the whole situation. Amstaff is just a name for a different style of pit bull in my opinion. Although I will call them as such.


The UKC was created for making standard pit rules.
Later Staffies were not game tested and only the APBT was.

Therefore, you can say, the APBT is the game tested version of the Staffies.


----------



## Laughter777

william williamson said:


> their picture is that of a bunch of pigs tagged as pit bulls.
> not A fan of bullies,where I come from anything over 60# on purpose is a waste and serves no purpose other that to be sat next to the escalade,with the owner ganged down in flash and bling,with A "LOOK AT ME" tattoo across their forehead.
> every time I see one it's not with the nice mommy and her stroller or granny out for A walk.it's always with someone portrayin the gangster clown on the other end od the leash.
> and them 3 guys,deff clownsta's.


Look at my 75lb avatar...I am as far from gangsta as you can get!


----------



## American_Pit13

william williamson said:


> their picture is that of a bunch of pigs tagged as pit bulls.
> not A fan of bullies,where I come from anything over 60# on purpose is a waste and serves no purpose other that to be sat next to the escalade,with the owner ganged down in flash and bling,with A "LOOK AT ME" tattoo across their forehead.
> every time I see one it's not with the nice mommy and her stroller or granny out for A walk.it's always with someone portrayin the gangster clown on the other end od the leash.
> and them 3 guys,deff clownsta's.


This is the same kind of uneducated stereotyping that has put the APBT in the position it is in.

I think you should actually get some education on the American Bully and the people who care about the breed not just go straight after the image you where presented with. If you had actually bothered to look into the owners that are doing right with these dogs and not just the bad representations you would see there is more to the dogs and the people that own them.

The same kind of image can be seen with people and the APBT of whos on the other side of the leash. Trying to show of their bad a$$ killer pitbull. That doesn't mean thats what the breed is about.


----------



## william williamson

Laughter777 said:


> Look at my 75lb avatar...I am as far from gangsta as you can get!


were you in the picture?of the posers?


----------



## william williamson

american_pit13 said:


> This is the same kind of uneducated stereotyping that has put the APBT in the position it is in.
> 
> I think you should actually get some education on the American Bully and the people who care about the breed not just go straight after the image you where presented with. If you had actually bothered to look into the owners that are doing right with these dogs and not just the bad representations you would see there is more to the dogs and the people that own them.
> 
> The same kind of image can be seen with people and the APBT of whos on the other side of the leash. Trying to show of their bad a$$ killer pitbull. That doesn't mean thats what the breed is about.


it's not uneducated.
do you know what a census is?and the derivative of said census?consensus,collective opinion,based on gathered information.
anywhere I've lived,Houston,Atlanta,Miami,West Palm Beach,San D,Wilmington, Raliegh.
I see slathering dogs,the majority of them are leashes,and on the other end the Majority,census,consensus of the time is A poser,and even A real gangsta.
sure your the trainer central for the site.
someones gotta know something about what a pit is and what A dog manager is.don't try though,to disqualify what my eyes tell me.both from paddin through dog shows,the streets and dog sites.
google Bully,check out the page,the image that oozes from them,by the dress,and the photo shoots for the dogs.
do that,live all over like some of us have done.
then re-adress the who's got an un--educated opinion.
if someones dressin like A monkey,jumpin around and hoo haa-in and sellin bananas then we may want to look close and see if it's A monkey.
and yup,from 33 years ago when I got my first,the ownership has changed,and greatly diminished.
yet,how often,and I've seen it often enough,is the 45# stick of dynamite love,been traded in for A 100# drool tool?


----------



## Laughter777

william williamson said:


> were you in the picture?of the posers?


No, your comment I was responding to was " anything over 60# on purpose is a waste and serves no purpose other that to be sat next to the escalade,with the owner ganged down in flash and bling,with A "LOOK AT ME" tattoo across their forehead." that comment had nothing to do with the posers. But I know what you mean I think I am one of a handful of people with a large dog in my area that isn't looking like a gangsta. Unfortunately comments like that can be taken out of context and modified to make it seem like ONLY gangsters own the breed.


----------



## william williamson

Laughter777 said:


> No, your comment I was responding to was " anything over 60# on purpose is a waste and serves no purpose other that to be sat next to the escalade,with the owner ganged down in flash and bling,with A "LOOK AT ME" tattoo across their forehead." that comment had nothing to do with the posers. But I know what you mean I think I am one of a handful of people with a large dog in my area that isn't looking like a gangsta. Unfortunately comments like that can be taken out of context and modified to make it seem like ONLY gangsters own the breed.


I don't hate the occasional larger than the norm pit.I do,as with many,of/on another thread,take offense to the labeling of wildly bred dogs,then the moniker "PIT BULL" gets attached to them/it.
it's obtrusive.
theirs actually many of the famed breeders who had some larger dogs way back,yet they were breeding for game dogs as the general prospect.
they farmed them out or just gave them away.


----------



## j-crash

william williamson said:


> I've seen it often enough,is the 45# stick of dynamite love,been traded in for A 100# drool tool?


most people don't have the time, energy, or space for a 45lb. stick of dynamite. those dogs used to serve a purpose other than pet, but considering that their main purpose is illegal their numbers have dwindled. as much as i like that style of dog it would be a bad idea for myself or most people to have an energetic DA dog, so i guess i'll just stick with my "drool tool"


----------



## j-crash

i just as laughter777 am not a "gangsta" i live in a subdivision in a rural farming area where i teach kindergarten p.e.


----------



## PrairieMoonPits

Please do not state the Amstaff as just a show tool. Like the APBT they are versitile! They share blood even if its been highly more issolated and strained to try to make them more of a consistant look as well as temperment and versitility I own an Amstaff that can make some sticks of dynamite look easy to handle she is DA she is high energy and she has no quit or end in her but she is NOT tested as NO dog should be anymore therefore if you see the only way to find a true APBT is that they are tested then have fun in a jail cell somewhere. I don't believe in mixing Amstaffs to APBT due to the fact that Amstaffs are supposed to be a highly more consistant body style to stay with the standard of the registry they are in where the APBT varies highly due to what worked best in the pit therefore they vary highly in different traits where the staff is supposed to keep a consistant body style, now in saying that the UKC has a different style the ADBA and now the APBT is being bred to match this more consistantly to compete in conformation therefore now most registered APBTs can be considered just for show as they follow the standard precisely but like the Amstaff are versitile and can compete in all sports as the breed should be able to compete in nearly everything. Again I'm not looking to bash anyone at all! Just giving my input on the situation I am however happy that ICK has been banned from UKC and anyone who mixes their dogs to create a new breed should advertise as such! And should be registered where they are stated as what they are a new breed coming up with no exact standard yet and may not have a registry yet. Dogs like Indigo and Holly's are Bullies with no mixes again they are a thicker dog but match the UKC standards which therefore states to the UKC standard they would be considered APBT. I have read alot of the old books by some of theh old dog men, and some stated that some of the most game dogs sometimes were just street dogs with no real proven blood. Again Just my input not trying to pull any hairs just don't like hearing that Amstaffs are just statues 90% of the ones I know or have seen fit the APBT temperment and drive completely.


----------



## gamer

LionsGate said:


> For those that are interested...
> 
> Iron Cross was banned because a DNA challenge was filed on a litter that was registered to Roman Vaughn, owner of Iron Cross Kennels. The DNA challenge proved that the sire he listed on the paperwork was not the actual sire of the litter.
> 
> It had nothing to do with the UKC questioning whether their dogs lineage were "true" or not.
> 
> I know this for fact, because I filed the DNA challenge. And I may be filing another one very soon.
> 
> Also, for those who want to bash on all "XL Bully Breeders" - note that some of us are very up front about the fact that there was mixing that went on in pretty much every bloodline that is considered XL or XXL at some point. There are those of us who are willing to admit what WAS done, and are trying to move forward and bring the look back to the dogs, rather than continue the problem and breed more bandogges into our blood....to that point, I say this - one of the first APBT's I ever owned was a 42lb red/rednose game bred rescue. One of the best dogs I ever owned. I know full well what a true APBT is. And I love everything about them. But I wanted them on a larger frame, without sacrificing the movement, agility, drive, or attitude of the true APBT...I certainly have not yet perfected my vision, but I am working on it.
> 
> Oh, and if you don't believe my dogs can move, check my YouTube - Search 'lionsgatekennels'.


If you only register them with the ABKC good for you, if you register them with UKC or ADBA then you are swimming among the same scum in my book



Elvisfink said:


> That's all fine and dandy, buy you're no different than the rest of the XXL peddlers. First off your "Kennel" is based on mutts from ICK. You've also admitted that there was mixing of breeds in you desired dog, but you're still advertising your mixed breed XXL Bully's as Pit Bulls!! THEY ARE NOT PIT BULLS!!! You are selling AmBullies a yet unstandardized dog in my Opinion! No I don't hate Bullies I just Hate when they are sold as Pit Bulls.
> 
> P.S. Your dogs might move, but the question is "How Long can they Move for?"


:goodpost:


----------



## Black Rabbit

william williamson said:


> not A fan of bullies,where I come from anything over 60# on purpose is a waste and serves no purpose other that to be sat next to the escalade,with the owner ganged down in flash and bling,with A "LOOK AT ME" tattoo across their forehead.


OK check it out I have a APBT that is pushing 70lbs and let me tell you this dog is no waste. He is very smart and is a working dog. He is on his way to be a WP and dock diving dog. He is very high drive and a great working boy. Also I have more ink on my skin that most guys but does it make me a gangster to have tons of tats and a pit? No, I'm a professional tattoo artist and I do work at the shelter also helping dogs get placed in loving responsible homes. Never judge a book by it's cover.


----------



## william williamson

420,apparently you didn't read down the page where I cleared what I'd meant.
pits do range out.it seems more so now,that their are larger and more dogs about.
I don't know if it's because the breed has undergone wild I gotta pit you gotta pit lets make cash wif bebe pits.
25-30 years ago dogs, real well bred pits just didn't often tip over 60-70#'s. 
it happened,yet not nearly as often.
dogs goin over the mark in weight are just big dogs.
ancestrally everyone tried to keep them down.way back,everyone wanted A 35-50# dog,and 50# dogs often bounced around.or went to farms for vermin dogs,or S.carolina,fl. texas, and such for hog or bear dogs.
A 70# dog back then was a head turner.now they are just random dogs,seen all over.and honestly,I can't tell them from bullies often unless they got real legs instead of miniature pogo sticks.
back then I was impressed at A 70# catch dog.when your hunting with just 2 dogs and A knife big dogs make the thrill.


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

William the only thing I will say in this thread is the things that you have stated here, though they have very little knowledge in them, are somewhat offensive to say... Also my boy is almost 80 lbs and believe me he has leg and there is no bully in him... Butmy husband and I have tatoos, we drive a sports car on 20 in wheels and a truck lifted and all "bling blinged" out, my whole family (kids too) wear Ecko and Nike shoes... However we bust our rear ends daily for what we (my family and I) have... Still does not make us gangstas and I definitely do not own this breed for a status... If I wanted status and a dog that is vicious I would have a Dobie or Rottie or American Bulldog trained of course...


----------



## coppermare

william williamson said:


> 420,apparently you didn't read down the page where I cleared what I'd meant.
> pits do range out.it seems more so now,that their are larger and more dogs about.
> I don't know if it's because the breed has undergone wild I gotta pit you gotta pit lets make cash wif bebe pits.
> 25-30 years ago dogs, real well bred pits just didn't often tip over 60-70#'s.
> it happened,yet not nearly as often.
> dogs goin over the mark in weight are just big dogs.
> ancestrally everyone tried to keep them down.way back,everyone wanted A 35-50# dog,and 50# dogs often bounced around.or went to farms for vermin dogs,or S.carolina,fl. texas, and such for hog or bear dogs.
> A 70# dog back then was a head turner.now they are just random dogs,seen all over.and honestly,I can't tell them from bullies often unless they got real legs instead of miniature pogo sticks.
> back then I was impressed at A 70# catch dog.when your hunting with just 2 dogs and A knife big dogs make the thrill.


Hmmmm maybe it's what we are feeding them now, maybe it's better vet or prenatal care. And again, I gotta say, maybe if your feeding raw, it's the steroids in the meat......who knows.


----------



## aus_staffy

I'll agree with S&N about that, william. I completely understand that you're a purist and I respect that. I am too about a lot of things. What you might want to try is avoiding stereotyping people. It's easy to pick out the "thug" image of the bully community because even from halfway across the world, that's the first thing you see (the cars, the tatts, the spiked collars and harnesses) and form a negative opinion. However, many people do the same thing with APBT owners. I'm sure you don't like it when people make unfair assumptions about you and your dogs.


----------



## coppermare

So what does the image below conjure up? BTW he's owned by a christian, military, family type guy........go figure.


----------



## Black Rabbit

That's a cute boy right there  I wanna kiss his squishy face


----------



## coppermare

LOL yeah, I'm kinda attracted to those wrinkle faces also.


----------



## NorCalTim

PrairieMoonPits said:


> Please do not state the Amstaff as just a show tool. Like the APBT they are versitile! They share blood even if its been highly more issolated and strained to try to make them more of a consistant look as well as temperment and versitility I own an Amstaff that can make some sticks of dynamite look easy to handle she is DA she is high energy and she has no quit or end in her but she is NOT tested as NO dog should be anymore therefore if you see the only way to find a true APBT is that they are tested then have fun in a jail cell somewhere. I don't believe in mixing Amstaffs to APBT due to the fact that Amstaffs are supposed to be a highly more consistant body style to stay with the standard of the registry they are in where the APBT varies highly due to what worked best in the pit therefore they vary highly in different traits where the staff is supposed to keep a consistant body style, now in saying that the UKC has a different style the ADBA and now the APBT is being bred to match this more consistantly to compete in conformation therefore now most registered APBTs can be considered just for show as they follow the standard precisely but like the Amstaff are versitile and can compete in all sports as the breed should be able to compete in nearly everything. Again I'm not looking to bash anyone at all! Just giving my input on the situation I am however happy that ICK has been banned from UKC and anyone who mixes their dogs to create a new breed should advertise as such! And should be registered where they are stated as what they are a new breed coming up with no exact standard yet and may not have a registry yet. Dogs like Indigo and Holly's are Bullies with no mixes again they are a thicker dog but match the UKC standards which therefore states to the UKC standard they would be considered APBT. I have read alot of the old books by some of theh old dog men, and some stated that some of the most game dogs sometimes were just street dogs with no real proven blood. Again Just my input not trying to pull any hairs just don't like hearing that Amstaffs are just statues 90% of the ones I know or have seen fit the APBT temperment and drive completely.


Stafies are great. My friend had one hell of a Staffy.
The American Bully is a new, well loved breed in and of itself.
The APBT is just that. No big deal. I would never fight my dogs, or even see a dog fight. If it is not bred from the old school APBT, it is not an APBT.

All 3 are separate Bull Dog breeds.
Saying one is the best is like saying my favorite color is the best color.

Bull dogs are great! 
The old LA question, "cant we all just get along".
Answer, "yep".

If they come for a pit, they come for all of us. Remember the holocaust.


----------



## NorCalTim

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> William the only thing I will say in this thread is the things that you have stated here, though they have very little knowledge in them, are somewhat offensive to say... Also my boy is almost 80 lbs and believe me he has leg and there is no bully in him... Butmy husband and I have tatoos, we drive a sports car on 20 in wheels and a truck lifted and all "bling blinged" out, my whole family (kids too) wear Ecko and Nike shoes... However we bust our rear ends daily for what we (my family and I) have... Still does not make us gangstas and I definitely do not own this breed for a status... If I wanted status and a dog that is vicious I would have a Dobie or Rottie or American Bulldog trained of course...


He is a beauty!

In 10 yrs of breeding, I have had 2 huge boys. My line is mainly Sorrells and is mostly 65 lbs.


----------



## william williamson

NorCalTim said:


> He is a beauty!
> 
> In 10 yrs of breeding, I have had 2 huge boys. My line is mainly Sorrells and is mostly 65 lbs.


staying with Berts dogs was/is smart.he's one of the few left that has long lines,consistantly.
with what they did to floyd,he and A few others were lucky to be missed.


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## dylroche1

WOW.. im looking at muglestons site right now and they want $8000.00 for a puppy! really? they just wanna make a profit and alls that people are paying for in my opinion is a "mutt" you would have to be crazy to pay that kind of price...


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## Capone22

So...question I have a 6 month old puppy and I have the application for UKC registration. On it, it states that his father is no limit kennelz OG RAMPAGE, who is the son of OG GLOCK-son of ICK DISCIPLE. Does that mean If I send in the paper, it will be denied? I'ts funny because I have been telling my fiance that I think they are mixing mastiffs with Pits to get the XXL and I stumble on this. I paid $1000.00 for him, from a friend who told me they sell them for around $4000.00 :hammer: I love my dog, and he really is worth all the money in the world...but asking $1000.00 for a MUTT and lying about it...I'm disgusted.

ETA: If I did one of those tests to see what breed your mixed dog is, will it come up with some other breeds to prove he is a mix?


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## gamer

I dont think you can register the pup but you can call UKC and find out.


----------



## American_Pit13

Capone22 said:


> So...question I have a 6 month old puppy and I have the application for UKC registration. On it, it states that his father is no limit kennelz OG RAMPAGE, who is the son of OG GLOCK-son of ICK DISCIPLE. Does that mean If I send in the paper, it will be denied? I'ts funny because I have been telling my fiance that I think they are mixing mastiffs with Pits to get the XXL and I stumble on this. I paid $1000.00 for him, from a friend who told me they sell them for around $4000.00 :hammer: I love my dog, and he really is worth all the money in the world...but asking $1000.00 for a MUTT and lying about it...I'm disgusted.
> 
> ETA: If I did one of those tests to see what breed your mixed dog is, will it come up with some other breeds to prove he is a mix?


I believe it said anything that was on the ground before they where banned would be registered as well as dog with ICK linage but not directly from.


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## Capone22

Ok, Thanks. I will ask UKC. I am not even worried about registering him. He is 6 months old, Born Jan 21, 2010, 100% not interested in breeding, he is already fixed. But I just feel lied too, scammed. That's what upsets me the most.

Heres a pic of the baby boy, Capone-

Day we got him- approx 5 mos.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e126/BabyDi06/Capone5mos-1.jpg

6 Mos-
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e126/BabyDi06/Capone6mos.jpg

6/7 Mos-
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e126/BabyDi06/Capone6-7mos.jpg


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## william williamson

dylroche1 said:


> WOW.. im looking at muglestons site right now and they want $8000.00 for a puppy! really? they just wanna make a profit and alls that people are paying for in my opinion is a "mutt" you would have to be crazy to pay that kind of price...


compound ignorance.on both sides of the sale.


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## aus_staffy

william williamson said:


> compound ignorance.on both sides of the sale.


I cannot disagree with that statement.


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## gamer

So let me get this right, they know papers were hung on these males and it is ok to register pups from them if they were born before they were caught? WTH are they not pulling all the papers? Man I will never register a UKC dog again or attend shows if they cant do the right thing here.


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## ibeffudled

gamer said:


> So let me get this right, they know papers were hung on these males and it is ok to register pups from them if they were born before they were caught? WTH are they not pulling all the papers? Man I will never register a UKC dog again or attend shows if they cant do the right thing here.


i have never had a registered dog with he ukc, well my only registered dog anywhere is my akc minpin of my moms but i agree here with you, i don't see how you can just turn the other cheek if you were them. baseball took care of steroids eventually, as will the ukc its a darn* shame them dogs have health defects they never asked to be brought into this world


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## dixieland

gamer said:


> So let me get this right, they know papers were hung on these males and it is ok to register pups from them if they were born before they were caught? WTH are they not pulling all the papers? Man I will never register a UKC dog again or attend shows if they cant do the right thing here.


:goodpost: This I totally agree with.Why are pups off of these dogs allowed to be registered?


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## buzhunter

Because they make $$$$$$$. Same as the puppy peddlers. They've been handing out APBT registrations like candy for generations. Sad, ain't it?


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## coppermare

Probably because of the downhill spiral of crap it will cause. How many people will demand money back, dump dogs, sue, fight, whoaaaaaa what a mess it would be!!! I understand how you feel about it not being right, but they aren't willing to go through the red tape it would cause maybe.
There is a solution though if they tried hard enough.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

buzhunter said:


> Because they make $$$$$$$. Same as the puppy peddlers. They've been handing out APBT registrations like candy for generations. Sad, ain't it?





gamer said:


> So let me get this right, they know papers were hung on these males and it is ok to register pups from them if they were born before they were caught? WTH are they not pulling all the papers? Man I will never register a UKC dog again or attend shows if they cant do the right thing here.


IDK, if it really is about making money, or if it's right or wrong... It's a darn good possibility that they can "keep" their papers, but cannot register any litter with this dog in their pedigree. That would be the smart way to go about it, just deny any more incoming reguardless if this dog is a direct relative or not.


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## j-crash

dixieland said:


> :goodpost: This I totally agree with.Why are pups off of these dogs allowed to be registered?


i think they are not allowed to register any new puppies off of any of these dogs what some people are complaining about though is that they want any dog with an ick dog it is ped to have its papers pulled do you realize how many thousands of registered dogs that would be? they do/did nothing but pump out puppies, many to other people who also do nothing but breed like crazy. plus how would you feel if you had now idea who roman vaughn is or what ick is and you got a letter saying your papers are revoked because you have an ick dog six generations back on the sire's side... that would be REAL shady of the ukc!


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## buzhunter

I wouldn't call it shady, I'd call it coming clean. It's their own fault they've done this kind of business and their cross to bear. Imagine the impact their honesty would have on BSL. Kinda like global warming lol.


----------



## j-crash

buzhunter said:


> I wouldn't call it shady, I'd call it coming clean. It's their own fault they've done this kind of business and their cross to bear. Imagine the impact their honesty would have on BSL. Kinda like global warming lol.


the problem is though, that if they think ick i lying about certain dogs ped's (which they most likely are) they still can't prove it. or what about some of their earlier dogs maybe there was not mixing then, and maybe you have one of those dogs several generation back in your ped (hypothetically) it would be unfair to pull your papers
... innocent until proven guilty, and the problem is they can't really prove them guilty. stop allowing them to register new pups i agree with, but pulling papers from dogs that are several years old (heck some are probably dead) seems silly.


----------



## 9361

NorCalTim said:


> The UKC was created for making standard pit rules.
> Later Staffies were not game tested and only the APBT was.
> 
> Therefore, you can say, the APBT is the game tested version of the Staffies.


Than one can say, since the original function of these dogs is now banned in their homeland the APBT... than the true APBT ceases to exist.... If that is your opinion on the entire matter. And any true proven APBT's through illegal practices are very elusive.

Sorry guys... rip up your APBT paper work if your not fighting your dogs...


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## Indigo Bully Connection

j-crash said:


> the problem is though, that if they think ick i lying about certain dogs ped's (which they most likely are) they still can't prove it. or what about some of their earlier dogs maybe there was not mixing then, and maybe you have one of those dogs several generation back in your ped (hypothetically) it would be unfair to pull your papers
> ... innocent until proven guilty, and the problem is they can't really prove them guilty. stop allowing them to register new pups i agree with, but pulling papers from dogs that are several years old (heck some are probably dead) seems silly.


I would be pee'd off, but not at the UKC, i'd be more angry with the jerk who pulled a swift one on me. IDK, once busted being a fraud I think all credibility in anything that person says should be taken as a grain of salt. I really don't care about the hundreds or thousands of dogs they have affectED, I just care about the hundreds or thousands that WOULD be affected... It would keeps more people from continuing to be ripped off. There has got to be a stop to it yanno?

Like what was said earlier, once another breed is introduced it is no longer a "pure bred" dog. I think a good letter in the mail to all of the owners of the offspring of this dog deserve to know. I the only way to nip it in the bud would be to pull all of the papers so we don't continue the "line"


----------



## Firehazard

Elvisfink said:


> That depends on when we are talking. Are we talking mid 1930 or are we talking 2010?
> 
> If we're talking 1920's then we're talking Pit Bulls were tested an proven that were entered into the AKC as Staffordshire Terriers. Here's an early AmStaff and one that many of todays AST lines are based on. Yes, AST were proven and tested dogs at one time. If we're talking contemporary UKC regestered American Pit Bull Terriers than we are talk daul registard AST's. In many peoples opinion an APBT with AST blood is a mutt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little AST history for you.
> 
> The Tacoma Line was developed through the breeding activities of Charles Doyle of Winamac Indiana. The great dog, Tacoma Jack, was whelped in 1927. He was owned by Al Brown. Using Tacoma Jack and Brown's Judy, Mr. Brown produced a number of outstanding dogs. Several of these, including Tacoma Jack's Replica, were sent to Charles Doyle. Using Tacoma Jack's Replica and other Tacoma dogs, and with liberal infusions of Corvino blood through such great dogs as Corvino's Braddock and Corvinos's Shorty, Mr. Doyle produced a long line of courage and sound dogs. Some of the best included Ch. Young Joe Braddock, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster I, Ch. Doyle's Tacoma Disaster II, Ch. Kane Tacoma Blaze, and Ch. Tacoma All-A-Blaze. Ch. Tacoma Frivolous Sal, owned by Howard and Janice Hadley, won the National Specialty in 1954. Subsequently Tacoma crosses have been important in all other major AST lines.
> 
> Mr. Doyle, who was active in the National Club both as a board member and long-time Secretary, *strongly believed in keeping the Staff as Game and Functional as possible*. Of all the AST lines, the Tacoma dogs have easily the most outstanding record for courage and capability.
> 
> Taken from:
> The American Staffordshire Terrier (The Little Red Book)
> By Dr. Richard Pasco
> Printed in 1977


:goodpost: outstanding!!! :goodpost:


----------



## Black Rabbit

buzhunter said:


> I wouldn't call it shady, I'd call it coming clean. It's their own fault they've done this kind of business and their cross to bear. Imagine the impact their honesty would have on BSL. Kinda like global warming lol.


I totally agree here 100%


j-crash said:


> the problem is though, that if they think ick i lying about certain dogs ped's (which they most likely are) they still can't prove it. or what about some of their earlier dogs maybe there was not mixing then, and maybe you have one of those dogs several generation back in your ped (hypothetically) it would be unfair to pull your papers
> ... innocent until proven guilty, and the problem is they can't really prove them guilty. stop allowing them to register new pups i agree with, but pulling papers from dogs that are several years old (heck some are probably dead) seems silly.


Yes it has been proven that they did lie and hang papers. They proved it with the DNA-P test. They were the ones being shady hanging papers and ripping people off, false advertising and faking stats. 
I think they shouldn't register any pups off of any of those dogs.


----------



## Firehazard

LionsGate said:


> For those that are interested...
> 
> Iron Cross was banned because a DNA challenge was filed on a litter that was registered to Roman Vaughn, owner of Iron Cross Kennels. The DNA challenge proved that the sire he listed on the paperwork was not the actual sire of the litter.
> 
> It had nothing to do with the UKC questioning whether their dogs lineage were "true" or not.
> 
> I know this for fact, because I filed the DNA challenge. And I may be filing another one very soon.
> 
> Also, for those who want to bash on all "XL Bully Breeders" - note that some of us are very up front about the fact that there was mixing that went on in pretty much every bloodline that is considered XL or XXL at some point. There are those of us who are willing to admit what WAS done, and are trying to move forward and bring the look back to the dogs, rather than continue the problem and breed more bandogges into our blood....to that point, I say this - one of the first APBT's I ever owned was a 42lb red/rednose game bred rescue. One of the best dogs I ever owned. I know full well what a true APBT is. And I love everything about them. But I wanted them on a larger frame, without sacrificing the movement, agility, drive, or attitude of the true APBT...I certainly have not yet perfected my vision, but I am working on it.
> 
> Oh, and if you don't believe my dogs can move, check my YouTube - Search 'lionsgatekennels'.


You have large working bulldogs, but they aren't game dogs and APBTs are game dogs.

Colby's says in his book, "there are ppl taking the largest APBT inbreeding them to form what they call the American Bulldog..."

Colby is saying that they are inbreeding the largest APBTs together, that is selective breeding just for size.. Large game dogs come up too but not steady because they are breeding for game a mentality not SIZE, we see out of BINGO, OFRN, and other game dogs and lines there are dogs 75 and a lil more, IMO I agree with Stratton, & Flieg, if a ABPT is over 80 then we should consider it a mastiff... ALL APBTs that push 90+ and WHoppers and XXL are definitely mastiffs IMO (bandogs if you need a softer term) they aint game dogs that for sure and the little fircracker with level a big dog in minutes, and sorry for the lingo but APBTs are game, period.. That was proven with Parkers Bouncer who was the sire to the WHopper dog lineage, and who was defeated by a little 45lbs stick of dynamite.


----------



## j-crash

kg420 said:


> I totally agree here 100%
> 
> Yes it has been proven that they did lie and hang papers. They proved it with the DNA-P test. They were the ones being shady hanging papers and ripping people off, false advertising and faking stats.
> I think they shouldn't register any pups off of any of those dogs.


with which of their dogs?.. all of them, one of them? i'm not trying to argue i'm just curious.


----------



## buzhunter

The Whopper dogs, they way I understand it, is just another example of blatant misrepresentation on the UKC's part. Like I said, they've been letting this go on for years and years. ICK is not the first.


----------



## Firehazard

j-crash said:


> with which of their dogs?.. all of them, one of them? i'm not trying to argue i'm just curious.


Many a dog men feel the same way about whopper, and any other dog carrying APBT paperwork or founded by APBT paperwork.. :clap: Just FYI, Tudors, Carver, and several others were rumored to have rung dogs, but I guess it didn't matter for those dogs who had to be PROVEN to be APBTs and the AKC AST use to be virtually the same dog with certain cosmetic requirements.. PEOPLE and what WE think we can perfect perfection.. :hammer:


----------



## buzhunter

Firehazard said:


> Many a dog men feel the same way about whopper, and any other dog carrying APBT paperwork or founded by APBT paperwork.. :clap: Just FYI, Tudors, Carver, and several others were rumored to have rung dogs, but I guess it didn't matter for those dogs who had to be PROVEN to be APBTs and the AKC AST use to be virtually the same dog with certain cosmetic requirements.. PEOPLE and what WE think we can perfect perfection.. :hammer:


Very true. IMO the pit bull is a type of dog. Not a breed.


----------



## gamer

coppermare said:


> Probably because of the downhill spiral of crap it will cause. How many people will demand money back, dump dogs, sue, fight, whoaaaaaa what a mess it would be!!! I understand how you feel about it not being right, but they aren't willing to go through the red tape it would cause maybe.
> There is a solution though if they tried hard enough.


Not UKCs fault that they were duped, Maybe requiring DNA on stud dogs and bitches that have more than one breeding a year or something will help.



j-crash said:


> the problem is though, that if they think ick i lying about certain dogs ped's (which they most likely are) they still can't prove it. or what about some of their earlier dogs maybe there was not mixing then, and maybe you have one of those dogs several generation back in your ped (hypothetically) it would be unfair to pull your papers
> ... innocent until proven guilty, and the problem is they can't really prove them guilty. stop allowing them to register new pups i agree with, but pulling papers from dogs that are several years old (heck some are probably dead) seems silly.


The proved it on these two dogs and I am sure they wont stop there everyone is going to want to have their dogs tested


----------



## NorCalTim

Shes Got Heart said:


> Than one can say, since the original function of these dogs is now banned in their homeland the APBT... than the true APBT ceases to exist.... If that is your opinion on the entire matter. And any true proven APBT's through illegal practices are very elusive.
> 
> Sorry guys... rip up your APBT paper work if your not fighting your dogs...


Yes, this is true!

That is why is is so important to at least use pure bred APBTs' to breed with!
At least they have a chance of preserving the gameness.
Unless you go to another country. Where they do not treat their dogs like Vick, but honor their drive and do not cause any unnecessary harm. Look up game dog breeds web board. This is a true statement.

I would never put my dogs in harms way, even if their ancestors won the equivalent to the ultimate strong man competition.

You understand. :clap:

Most "pits" are not pure bred APBT. One can argue (rightfully so), mine are now going the way of Stafies because I would never game test my family members.

Most true old Bull Dog breeders would not even want a show dog in their pedigree. They say, "its one of those dogs".

I was given flack for using Grand Champion Scruffy because he is a show dog.

If you want to catch Foxes, you do not use show stock Fox Terriers, you use dirty catch dog's one someones farm. Or, you water down your line.

The dog Grand Champion Scruffy had good lines like Snooty, this is why I used him. He still is a show dog, like my dogs, on their way to being Staffies.
Again, this is why it is so important to use old school dogs that truly represent the breed.:rofl:

Old books from Greenwood are worth their weight in gold.


----------



## Black Rabbit

I believe the dogs that they DNA-P'd that didn't match up with the pups was Disciple, Stale Fish, and Osiris.


----------



## Firehazard

NorCalTim said:


> Yes, this is true!
> 
> That is why is is so important to at least use pure bred APBTs' to breed with!
> At least they have a chance of preserving the gameness.
> Unless you go to another country. Where they do not treat their dogs like Vick, but honor their drive and do not cause any unnecessary harm. Look up game dog breeds web board. This is a true statement.
> 
> I would never put my dogs in harms way, even if their ancestors won the equivalent to the ultimate strong man competition.
> 
> You understand. :clap:
> 
> Most "pits" are not pure bred APBT. One can argue (rightfully so), mine are now going the way of Stafies because I would never game test my family members.
> 
> Most true old Bull Dog breeders would not even want a show dog in their pedigree. They say, "its one of those dogs".
> 
> I was given flack for using Grand Champion Scruffy because he is a show dog.
> 
> If you want to catch Foxes, you do not use show stock Fox Terriers, you use dirty catch dog's one someones farm. Or, you water down your line.
> 
> The dog Grand Champion Scruffy had good lines like Snooty, this is why I used him. He still is a show dog, like my dogs, on their way to being Staffies.
> Again, this is why it is so important to use old school dogs that truly represent the breed.:rofl:
> 
> Old books from Greenwood are worth their weight in gold.


:clap::clap::clap: Greenwood was the first dogman I talked to and then of course his daughter helped me a good deal with my breeding program.

Thats why my dog is made up of wins OTC, because, ORIGINALLY the dog had to have 2 wins to be registered as an APBT and because the REAL BULLDOG went into the pit over a millinea ago and was forever dubbed "pit bull"

In this country the United States of American, THE PEOPLE are GOVERNMENT, dont forget that because you don't have time to protest cause you have to pay your bills,, YOU DON"T THINK there is a process to take away all freedoms? Hell right now we have so much freedom we are taking it away from ourselves... If we want CHANGE the PEOPLE have to do it, or we will all subcome to socialist and communitarian lifestyle. Well almost, I'll be kickin it up in the mtns, you'll need directions and 4wheel drive.


----------



## NorCalTim

Shes Got Heart said:


> Than one can say, since the original function of these dogs is now banned in their homeland the APBT... than the true APBT ceases to exist.... If that is your opinion on the entire matter. And any true proven APBT's through illegal practices are very elusive.
> 
> Sorry guys... rip up your APBT paper work if your not fighting your dogs...


The original function is a long one. Bringing down a Bull, taking care of the kids when they went somewhere, partnership with frontiersmen, on and on.
All requiring relentless drive and intelligence.


----------



## NorCalTim

Firehazard said:


> :clap::clap::clap: Greenwood was the first dogman I talked to and then of course his daughter helped me a good deal with my breeding program.
> 
> Thats why my dog is made up of wins OTC, because, ORIGINALLY the dog had to have 2 wins to be registered as an APBT and because the REAL BULLDOG went into the pit over a millinea ago and was forever dubbed "pit bull"
> 
> In this country the United States of American, THE PEOPLE are GOVERNMENT, dont forget that because you don't have time to protest cause you have to pay your bills,, YOU DON"T THINK there is a process to take away all freedoms? Hell right now we have so much freedom we are taking it away from ourselves... If we want CHANGE the PEOPLE have to do it, or we will all subcome to socialist and communitarian lifestyle. Well almost, I'll be kickin it up in the mtns, you'll need directions and 4wheel drive.


Right on. I am not religious, however god (the powers that be) bless us all. Here in Humboldt there are many mentally ill people, they get shot by the police left and right (sometimes rightfully so). A guy just was shot for waving a rake end as a weapon. I sell trees, I am bringing them (the family - he was killed in front of their house by Hwy 101 and Hwy 299 in CA) a Japanese Maple on my next round of hauling Redwoods.

Peace out, all.


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## aimee235

They could just require all dogs being bred to have their DNA on file in order to register a litter. Not just the ones being bred multiple times. The only way I can think to keep people mostly honest would be to have the vet take the DNA sample. I'm sure either way and whatever they do people will still find a way to hang papers.


----------



## NorCalTim

aimee235 said:


> They could just require all dogs being bred to have their DNA on file in order to register a litter. Not just the ones being bred multiple times. The only way I can think to keep people mostly honest would be to have the vet take the DNA sample. I'm sure either way and whatever they do people will still find a way to hang papers.


The humaniacs are now using DNA to "prove" your dog is born bad. If he is from old lines (which were known for their human friendliness), some crazies say he is a BAD DOG.


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## coppermare

We have a mare and stallion's DNA on file. When the foal is born you send in a piece of mane or tail sample from the foal and it's proven. Then again it's only one not a litter.


----------



## Bethb2007

buzhunter said:


> The Whopper dogs, they way I understand it, is just another example of blatant misrepresentation on the UKC's part. Like I said, they've been letting this go on for years and years. ICK is not the first.


Actually it was ADBA that let Whopper in(the ADBA knew he was not pure pit, but allowed it). I saw him in person, and he did not look anything like a pitbull, he made the bullies look purebred.The ADBA papers were only supposed to be used for weightpull, but he ended up being bred, and the offspring registered. That was all ADBAs doing. He was not the first or last bandog registered as a pure pit with ADBA. In defense of UKC, there are just as many mutts registered with ADBA as UKC. ADBA also used single registration from handwritten pedigrees of unknown parentage, it is not funny. Back in the 80's and 90's there were so many huge dogs pulling ADBA it was sickening. It was not until they got rid of MWP award, that the size went down, at least at the weightpulls.


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## bahamutt99

If the closing of the UKC single registration had happened 30 years ago, they would be more pure than the ADBA dogs, IMO. Because there would have been no Whopper kin coming over from the ADBA to do weight pull.

ETA: I would disagree with requiring DNA on all dogs just because it is so expensive.


----------



## Firehazard

Bethb2007 said:


> Actually it was ADBA that let Whopper in(the ADBA knew he was not pure pit, but allowed it). I saw him in person, and he did not look anything like a pitbull, he made the bullies look purebred.The ADBA papers were only supposed to be used for weightpull, but he ended up being bred, and the offspring registered. That was all ADBAs doing. He was not the first or last bandog registered as a pure pit with ADBA. In defense of UKC, there are just as many mutts registered with ADBA as UKC. ADBA also used single registration from handwritten pedigrees of unknown parentage, it is not funny. Back in the 80's and 90's there were so many huge dogs pulling ADBA it was sickening. It was not until they got rid of MWP award, that the size went down, at least at the weightpulls.


oh, Begging the question... Beating a dead horse, HAHAHA into fertilizer, nutrients for growth 

theres no doubt the about whopper, eddington and the ADBA, Its nice that you bring up UKCr bandogs too..

ADBA has whopper which was from parkers bouncer which was half now extinct true Dogue de bordeaux(they were fighting dogs better than TOSAS) That American Bulldog being Whopper is Jive, I've seen American Bulldog Pitbulls and I come from the heart of Whopper land and whopper is a mastiff crossout highly prone to carry demo)>all those that follow:flush:

UKC has what ever ya'll did to the perfect THROWING KNUCKLES DOG that appears in stratton book.. The difference one is a work horse and the other well I don't know, a door stop? THE CLASSIC BULLY is a Great working dog those others :flush:

So MAYBE just MAYBE we should have a American Bandog category, but the reality unlike those men who diverged the large colby dogs into american bulldogs, the plague to the UKC/ADBA is because of the APBT registery papers and breeder ethics, or lack there of.. THEY ARE PROUD to say I have a 130lb pit bull,,:hammer: IMO I believe in all what I've seen in all the breeds that an APBT bred to be 85lb+ is a mastiff, I know from genetics that you can take the large dog of a large dog of a large dog and keep it pure but it takes more time than these people who have tainted the blood, but still if an APBT was PURE GAME DOG at 120lbs is a mastiff (NOT HAPPENING) but wouldnt that be a reckoning? The Whopper dogs and those who have taken whopper in different directions have bred monsters with the drive to out work any bandog foreign or domestic.

OUR WAY OF THINKING IS BACKWARDS FROM POLITICS... Mastiffs(bandogs are working mastiffs I suppose intodays way of thinking), Bulldogs, Etc.. are types of dogs with a function stock control predator control and because they enjoy it so dog fighting. We came up with the concept of BREED of dog by the pompus tenderfoots..

So everyone who breeds dogs over 85lbs that have APBT paperwork at all, need to just come up with their own "breed" name collectively..

There are still game bred and game line dogs out there so the APBT is still alive, all in which came from such have the goods to show they all should stick together UKC/ADBA and the Bandogs just need another title..


----------



## coppermare

Just when I thought I had this figured out with the APBT, Amstaffs, Bullies, and AMbullies, ya'll gotta go and throw this bandog stuff in amongst other things....geeeesh this just gets more and more difused doesnt it? On a search for this whopper stuff I found this site now...what in the world is this guy doing????

Loyal Guard Kennels - Pitt Bulls


----------



## 9361

Capone22 said:


> Ok, Thanks. I will ask UKC. I am not even worried about registering him. He is 6 months old, Born Jan 21, 2010, 100% not interested in breeding, he is already fixed. But I just feel lied too, scammed. That's what upsets me the most.
> 
> Heres a pic of the baby boy, Capone-
> 
> Day we got him- approx 5 mos.
> http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e126/BabyDi06/Capone5mos-1.jpg
> 
> 6 Mos-
> http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e126/BabyDi06/Capone6mos.jpg
> 
> 6/7 Mos-
> http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e126/BabyDi06/Capone6-7mos.jpg


You can always do a limited privledge registration where you can still compete in shows.


NorCalTim said:


> The original function is a long one. Bringing down a Bull, taking care of the kids when they went somewhere, partnership with frontiersmen, on and on.
> All requiring relentless drive and intelligence.


Sounds just like my girl.  She's a lil brick house.. roughly 47lbs give or take, loves her kiddo (my son) has a lot of drive but minimal DA.. if your another dog just don't touch her bone. haha


----------



## gamer

bahamutt99 said:


> If the closing of the UKC single registration had happened 30 years ago, they would be more pure than the ADBA dogs, IMO. Because there would have been no Whopper kin coming over from the ADBA to do weight pull.
> 
> ETA: I would disagree with requiring DNA on all dogs just because it is so expensive.


Breeding is expensive and breeders should do anything they can to better the breed


----------



## 9361

I say on the current ICK dogs to be registered required to be spayed or neutered to compete in shows and sports.... The UKC pit bull is in a lot of trouble from this kind of crud...


----------



## geisthexe

It is a shame that you all want to attack UKC when ALL THE ORGANIZATIONS have faults paperwork in dog predigrees. You can not tell me that ADBA has NEVER has a few .. if you I will call you a LIAR. AKC has had many of them in all different breeds. 

MY BREED: Beligan Malinois are KNOWN for there false pedigrees b/c of ALL the working dogs out there. Folks are more worried about the working of the breed then standards. 

I agree that if found things should NOT BE BRED but you all need to also go after all the breeds like the whopper line, razor edge etc b/c these two lines are still being able to register there dogs and they are MIXED pittys. 
Oh an lets go after ALL the AMBULLIES that have UKC paperwork or the AMSTAFFS that have UKC paperwork ... 

Instead of crabbing on a board actually do something about it. Letters to organizations with solutions but BEWARE if your line has anything negitatve in it you might also loose your papers. 

I do not agree with what this kennel did but before you pick on one you MUST go after them ALL 

I will appoligize to ALL that think I am attacking you about your breed of choice this is NOT my intention of this post.


----------



## 9361

This is why I'm going to find a very reputable breeder for my next dog


----------



## aimee235

gamer said:


> Breeding is expensive and breeders should do anything they can to better the breed


True. DNA profiling a dog costs less then a show weekend.


----------



## aus_staffy

coppermare said:


> Just when I thought I had this figured out with the APBT, Amstaffs, Bullies, and AMbullies, ya'll gotta go and throw this bandog stuff in amongst other things....geeeesh this just gets more and more difused doesnt it? On a search for this whopper stuff I found this site now...what in the world is this guy doing????
> 
> Loyal Guard Kennels - Pitt Bulls


Good looking dogs. These types of mixes are popular for personal protection and there are a few breeders out there with there own take on the theme. I didn't see anything wrong on that site (I didn't look at it all that closely because it's pretty similar to some others I've seen) and from what I could see, he acknowledged his dogs were mixes.


----------



## aus_staffy

geisthexe said:


> It is a shame that you all want to attack UKC when ALL THE ORGANIZATIONS have faults paperwork in dog predigrees. You can not tell me that ADBA has NEVER has a few .. if you I will call you a LIAR. AKC has had many of them in all different breeds.
> 
> MY BREED: Beligan Malinois are KNOWN for there false pedigrees b/c of ALL the working dogs out there. Folks are more worried about the working of the breed then standards.
> 
> I agree that if found things should NOT BE BRED but you all need to also go after all the breeds like the whopper line, razor edge etc b/c these two lines are still being able to register there dogs and they are MIXED pittys.
> Oh an lets go after ALL the AMBULLIES that have UKC paperwork or the AMSTAFFS that have UKC paperwork ...
> 
> Instead of crabbing on a board actually do something about it. Letters to organizations with solutions but BEWARE if your line has anything negitatve in it you might also loose your papers.
> 
> I do not agree with what this kennel did but before you pick on one you MUST go after them ALL
> 
> I will appoligize to ALL that think I am attacking you about your breed of choice this is NOT my intention of this post.


:goodpost::goodpost: Very good post.


----------



## dixieland

geisthexe said:


> It is a shame that you all want to attack UKC when ALL THE ORGANIZATIONS have faults paperwork in dog predigrees. You can not tell me that ADBA has NEVER has a few .. if you I will call you a LIAR. AKC has had many of them in all different breeds.
> 
> MY BREED: Beligan Malinois are KNOWN for there false pedigrees b/c of ALL the working dogs out there. Folks are more worried about the working of the breed then standards.
> 
> I agree that if found things should NOT BE BRED but you all need to also go after all the breeds like the whopper line, razor edge etc b/c these two lines are still being able to register there dogs and they are MIXED pittys.
> Oh an lets go after ALL the AMBULLIES that have UKC paperwork or the AMSTAFFS that have UKC paperwork ...
> 
> Instead of crabbing on a board actually do something about it. Letters to organizations with solutions but BEWARE if your line has anything negitatve in it you might also loose your papers.
> 
> I do not agree with what this kennel did but before you pick on one you MUST go after them ALL
> 
> I will appoligize to ALL that think I am attacking you about your breed of choice this is NOT my intention of this post.


I'm not attacking any one registry.As I could give two craps about any,as my dog is not registered.I'm just wondering why pups off of these dogs in question are still allowed to be registered just because the breeding took place before all of this was made known?If their lineage is questionable now,then it was questionable then when those breedings took place too.


----------



## buzhunter

Bethb2007 said:


> Actually it was ADBA that let Whopper in(the ADBA knew he was not pure pit, but allowed it). I saw him in person, and he did not look anything like a pitbull, he made the bullies look purebred.The ADBA papers were only supposed to be used for weightpull, but he ended up being bred, and the offspring registered. That was all ADBAs doing. He was not the first or last bandog registered as a pure pit with ADBA. In defense of UKC, there are just as many mutts registered with ADBA as UKC. ADBA also used single registration from handwritten pedigrees of unknown parentage, it is not funny. Back in the 80's and 90's there were so many huge dogs pulling ADBA it was sickening. It was not until they got rid of MWP award, that the size went down, at least at the weightpulls.


Ya, you're right. (got my dirty [email protected]@rds mixed up haha I yell at the wrong kid a lot of times too.)


----------



## buzhunter

geisthexe said:


> It is a shame that you all want to attack UKC when ALL THE ORGANIZATIONS have faults paperwork in dog predigrees. You can not tell me that ADBA has NEVER has a few .. if you I will call you a LIAR. AKC has had many of them in all different breeds.
> 
> MY BREED: Beligan Malinois are KNOWN for there false pedigrees b/c of ALL the working dogs out there. Folks are more worried about the working of the breed then standards.
> 
> I agree that if found things should NOT BE BRED but you all need to also go after all the breeds like the whopper line, razor edge etc b/c these two lines are still being able to register there dogs and they are MIXED pittys.
> Oh an lets go after ALL the AMBULLIES that have UKC paperwork or the AMSTAFFS that have UKC paperwork ...
> 
> Instead of crabbing on a board actually do something about it. Letters to organizations with solutions but BEWARE if your line has anything negitatve in it you might also loose your papers.
> 
> I do not agree with what this kennel did but before you pick on one you MUST go after them ALL
> 
> I will appoligize to ALL that think I am attacking you about your breed of choice this is NOT my intention of this post.


Agreed. They're all knowingly perpetuating the nonsense media hype by papering mixed/out of standard or type dogs. It's a shame because a lot of folks hold these registries so high. I don't need any of them.


----------



## geisthexe

gamer said:


> Breeding is expensive and breeders should do anything they can to better the breed


The ONLY REGISTRY that DNA's dogs is AKC and thats not for every dog that comes in. They ONLY do it if you are trying to state a dog is apart of the Pedigree you are claiming on paperwork. Meaning if you have a UKC Border Collie and want to register it with AKC they will have you DNA the dog (ONLY if the DNA of the Parents is on file with AKC)

Now this is something you ALL can try to get UKC to do on ALL the dogs coming into the UKC wanting to be registered. BUT that means you have to DNA your dogs so you have it on FILE. I know UKC has started with DNA but it is a volunteer basis right now.

I love this breed and always will but it has been messed up for so many years now that it will be hard to bring it back to what it is suppose to be if you have ones with mix in them from whopper to just the color blue.

We in the PRESA world are having the problem now b/c AKC changed the STANDARDS on the color part of my breed to allowing BLUE in it.. WHICH IN FACT THERE IS NO SUCH COLOR IN THE PRESA. They did b/c UKC denyed the gentleman who had the dogs there paperwork and AKC allowed the guy to get FSS paperwork on the pups. So we are fighting to get that color out and this person to loose his paperwork on his dogs.

I know my breed is alot smaller then yours so easier to fight now but there is no changing things if you just sit at a computer and complain. FIGHT to bring the BREED back and have the mixed ones CALLED MIXES in ALL of your registries.

AGAIN not trying to offend if I stated something .. its just a way of pointing things out.


----------



## American_Pit13

bahamutt99 said:


> ETA: I would disagree with requiring DNA on all dogs just because it is so expensive.


I think DNA on breeding dogs would be a great idea. Its $50 much less than the Hips and Heart Test.

No I don't think they should have to DNA the whole litter that would be the buyers choice but it would cut down on alot of shady happenings when they know one buyer sending in a DNA would get there papers pulled.


----------



## American_Pit13

geisthexe said:


> The ONLY REGISTRY that DNA's dogs is AKC and thats not for every dog that comes in.


UKC does DNA.. Unless you are talking about some different type of DNA that I am un aware of. You can DNA-P your dogs and DNA -P Parents give you a DNA-VIP pup if you do the offspring.

Edit.. Are you talking about DNA as in the test that supposedly tells you what breed is in a dog but actually is completely bogus? If so than Yes ONLY AKC does that Test.


----------



## pitbullmamanatl

geisthexe said:


> I know my breed is alot smaller then yours so easier to fight now but *there is no changing things if you just sit at a computer and complain. FIGHT to bring the BREED back and have the mixed ones CALLED MIXES in ALL of your registries.
> *


:goodpost::goodpost: Word.


----------



## LionsGate

Elvisfink said:


> That's all fine and dandy, buy you're no different than the rest of the XXL peddlers. First off your "Kennel" is based on mutts from ICK. You've also admitted that there was mixing of breeds in you desired dog, but you're still advertising your mixed breed XXL Bully's as Pit Bulls!! THEY ARE NOT PIT BULLS!!! You are selling AmBullies a yet unstandardized dog in my Opinion! No I don't hate Bullies I just Hate when they are sold as Pit Bulls.
> 
> P.S. Your dogs might move, but the question is "How Long can they Move for?"


You are welcome to your opinion. I could say the same about you though - you're no different than every other staunch, opinionated, game-dog enthusiast that decrees anything over 45lbs as a mixed APBT. The problem is - I don't know you. And you don't know me. I'll post some pics of my original game bred APBT for you. I know full well what a "true" APBT is. I also know that a "true" APBT has everything in a dog I desire - except the size.

My kennel is also NOT based off the "mutts" at ICK. The majority of my dogs were based around Iron Tyson - who was only owned by ICK until I got him. Tyson was as true to form as you will ever find, just on larger proportions. OFA certified (you can look it up) and UKC pointed, I've got the ribbons to prove it. Not to mention a drive from hell and a willingness to please I've seen in few dogs, "pure" or not. With the exception of his grandmother who stems from Notorious Juan Gotty, Tyson's blood came from UKC & AKC champions. But then again you probably consider any APBT that was bred with an AST a "mutt"...

Tyson's pedigree - ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [277866] :: IRON CROSS IRON TYSON

The only other "ICK" dog behind my dogs is Steelhead's Giant Q-ball. She was Watchdog blood, and her ancestry is where the mixing came into play. You can see the AB in her. When I got involved with the "XL" dogs, I wasn't nearly as knowledgeable as I am now. One of the reasons I am moving away from, and breeding that blood "out" of my lines.

My main point is this - and it will never change: I accept what was done in the past, I acknowledge it, and I am moving forward. I am bringing in other blood that is "pure" to clean up the crap that was brought in, and continuously breeding dogs that are more true to form together to bring the look, the form, and the function back, while maintaining the added size. I like big dogs, I grew up with Rotts. But once I got my first APBT it was over - I'll never own anything else. The only element my dogs don't carry over from the APBT of the past is the dog aggression - I not only actively try to breed it out, but I train it out. I have ZERO need for a dog that wants to kill another dog, and neither does anyone else. But that does not mean that if you put another small, furry animal in front my dogs that it won't become a snack or a "toy"....



buzhunter said:


> So, what are you going to call them when you get it perfected? and how do you feel about the UKC not questioning the purity of these dogs?


The UKC is interested in one thing and one thing only - $$. It's a privately owned FOR PROFIT business. Period. Until they start doing what they do for free, what they do is of little concern to me. I used to hold it as the holy grail, but I have since learned that a piece of paper does not make a dog. All it does is tell the story of how that dog came to be.



NorCalTim said:


> A pure bred Bully is mixed bred American Pit Bull TERRIER.
> 
> If it is not a Terrier, it is not an APBT. :hammer:
> The American Bully is not a Terrier. It can not swim with seals and do all of the things a pure bred Bull Dog can do.
> 
> The American Bully in NOT A PIT BULL, its an American Bully.


The APBT stems from several breeds being mixed together to create a dog for a certain purpose. The APBT in itself, is a mutt. Yes, it has a standard that was adopted and accepted, but it doesn't change the fact that in it's inception it was the exact same thing you accus the American Bully of being.

I will post some pictures of my "Bullies" performing with a true red/rednose APBT. They are as long winded as she was, and can perform to the level she did in any task....


----------



## LionsGate

william williamson said:


> their picture is that of a bunch of pigs tagged as pit bulls.
> not A fan of bullies,where I come from anything over 60# on purpose is a waste and serves no purpose other that to be sat next to the escalade,with the owner ganged down in flash and bling,with A "LOOK AT ME" tattoo across their forehead.
> every time I see one it's not with the nice mommy and her stroller or granny out for A walk.it's always with someone portrayin the gangster clown on the other end od the leash.
> and them 3 guys,deff clownsta's.


I agree with everything except the 60# weight comment.

This breed's image has ruined by gang bangers, wanna-be's, and flat-out low lifes. And it's only getting worse.


----------



## LionsGate

Capone22 said:


> So...question I have a 6 month old puppy and I have the application for UKC registration. On it, it states that his father is no limit kennelz OG RAMPAGE, who is the son of OG GLOCK-son of ICK DISCIPLE. Does that mean If I send in the paper, it will be denied? I'ts funny because I have been telling my fiance that I think they are mixing mastiffs with Pits to get the XXL and I stumble on this. I paid $1000.00 for him, from a friend who told me they sell them for around $4000.00 :hammer: I love my dog, and he really is worth all the money in the world...but asking $1000.00 for a MUTT and lying about it...I'm disgusted.
> 
> ETA: If I did one of those tests to see what breed your mixed dog is, will it come up with some other breeds to prove he is a mix?


You can register your dog. Rob from No Limit owns OG Glock. As long as Roman Vaughn didn't own either of your pups parents, you're in the clear.


----------



## LionsGate

Firehazard said:


> You have large working bulldogs, but they aren't game dogs and APBTs are game dogs.
> 
> Colby's says in his book, "there are ppl taking the largest APBT inbreeding them to form what they call the American Bulldog..."
> 
> Colby is saying that they are inbreeding the largest APBTs together, that is selective breeding just for size.. Large game dogs come up too but not steady because they are breeding for game a mentality not SIZE, we see out of BINGO, OFRN, and other game dogs and lines there are dogs 75 and a lil more, IMO I agree with Stratton, & Flieg, if a ABPT is over 80 then we should consider it a mastiff... ALL APBTs that push 90+ and WHoppers and XXL are definitely mastiffs IMO (bandogs if you need a softer term) they aint game dogs that for sure and the little fircracker with level a big dog in minutes, and sorry for the lingo but APBTs are game, period.. That was proven with Parkers Bouncer who was the sire to the WHopper dog lineage, and who was defeated by a little 45lbs stick of dynamite.


Won't disagree with you. My dogs are not game, by any means. Nor would I want them to be. Whats the point? They don't need to be "game" to catch a hog, pull a weight cart, swim for hours, jump 11ft. into a tree...and the list goes on.

There's a difference between game and drive, no question about it.

As for all APBT's that push 90lbs+ are mastiffs...I highly disagree. Find me a mastiff that can move like my dogs, run with my dogs, and come close to out lasting my dogs. I've seen my fair share of mastiffs - be it corso's, presa's, english, neo's....seen them all. Not even preformance based Presa's can keep up with my dogs....


----------



## LionsGate

j-crash said:


> with which of their dogs?.. all of them, one of them? i'm not trying to argue i'm just curious.


It has only been PROVEN that papers were hung on one litter. And none of the dogs that had hung papers stayed on ICK's yard - they were all sold. And it wasn't a case of ICK using another breed to mix in - it was a case of a dual-sired litter and ICK sent in a registration with the wrong stud listed as the sire.

Not saying what ICK did or didn't do in terms of other breeds, there are plenty of accusations on that front also.

The reason they were banned from the UKC is because they filed a litter registration with the wrong sire listed. End of story.


----------



## LionsGate

kg420 said:


> I believe the dogs that they DNA-P'd that didn't match up with the pups was Disciple, Stale Fish, and Osiris.


Osiris and Stalefish had nothing to do with ICK getting banned. Though there is a ton of controversy surrounding Stalefish because of who his father was, and what his father was.

Disciple was listed as the sire of a litter he was not the sire of, thats why ICK was banned.


----------



## Firehazard

geisthexe said:


> It is a shame that you all want to attack UKC when ALL THE ORGANIZATIONS have faults paperwork in dog predigrees. You can not tell me that ADBA has NEVER has a few .. if you I will call you a LIAR. AKC has had many of them in all different breeds.
> 
> MY BREED: Beligan Malinois are KNOWN for there false pedigrees b/c of ALL the working dogs out there. Folks are more worried about the working of the breed then standards.
> 
> I agree that if found things should NOT BE BRED but you all need to also go after all the breeds like the whopper line, razor edge etc b/c these two lines are still being able to register there dogs and they are MIXED pittys.
> Oh an lets go after ALL the AMBULLIES that have UKC paperwork or the AMSTAFFS that have UKC paperwork ...
> 
> Instead of crabbing on a board actually do something about it. Letters to organizations with solutions but BEWARE if your line has anything negitatve in it you might also loose your papers.
> 
> I do not agree with what this kennel did but before you pick on one you MUST go after them ALL
> 
> I will appoligize to ALL that think I am attacking you about your breed of choice this is NOT my intention of this post.


I like for everyone to swallow their rocks(that lump in our throat called pride) and admit we have all been and most today are wrong.. I pointed out the ADBA and the UKC for their allowances of lowstanding breeder ethics. I trained police, scratch, sheriff dep dogs and I know that the Beligan Malinois is only a registered breed in pompus society, as WORKING dogs they COME FROM Denmark, Deutschland with a certificate of breed authenticity but no pedigree as they are working dogs in a sense MOST OF US DONT UNDERSTAND, from resources I know that the dog is a GSD/APBT in ONE! A good dog but itself has political unrest and for good reason its not A PET its a working dog, like an Alaskan husky is not a pet, a Laika is not a pet, and unruley game dogs are sometimes not good pets.

I don't argue because I think I'm right or to be right, I argue to prove the other person wrong 

What Im saying is _we all need to revert to breeding by the game standard _or _the BIG dogs need to change dog breed/type _or _us game dog breeders need to isolate ourselve from the rest of the stock as its own type/breed_, those are the only solutions. I know big dogs come up out of game dogs as much as 80+lbs move it over to another stock or cull it out, ppl are confused for good reason, no one wants to take accountability for messin' with perfection. Just from a study of the old mastiffs they came from 80lb pit dogs and were bred to catch poachers theives and unruley cattle, the mastiff today is nothing like its original state which would be a WHOPPER dog as we know it today. Just study the fighting breeds, I think I've even showed ya'll at one point the Dogue De Bordeaux in its true form was almost extinct as a fighting dog and was revived by bullmastiff outcrossing. I understand genetics, just not dense people (not you, people in general)who can't see the big picture.


----------



## Firehazard

Okay,, Okay,,, If you think the ABPT is DOES NOT NEED TO BE A GAME BRED DOG, then take all those Stratton Books, and APBT books written by Colby, Rocca, Faron, Seminic, and pitch them in the trash because you obviously know more about the breed than they do.... The APBT is a game bred dog, or should be... I believe the horse is mush :roll:


----------



## LionsGate

american_pit13 said:


> UKC does DNA.. Unless you are talking about some different type of DNA that I am un aware of. You can DNA-P your dogs and DNA -P Parents give you a DNA-VIP pup if you do the offspring.
> 
> Edit.. Are you talking about DNA as in the test that supposedly tells you what breed is in a dog but actually is completely bogus? If so than Yes ONLY AKC does that Test.


Whats funny about this....

The only dog I ever purchased from Iron Cross is my boy Iron Lion. Who when I turned in his paperwork almost 4 years ago, I sent in a DNA swab along with it.

I got a DNA certificate back stating DNA-VIP, as I was told he would be. I also know for fact that his father was DNA-P because I ended up owning his father and have the certificate.

Now, almost 4 years later I transferred the registration on Iron Lion to my partner. When he got the paperwork back it only stated DNA-P. When he inquired about this at the UKC, they said "His mother was never DNA Profiled"

REALLY??!?!?!?! How then, did you take my $50, and send me a certificate that says you VERIFIED his DNA against his parents???? When you obviously did not do that because his mother isn't DNA Profiled....

I don't know what's happened up in Michigan, but it seems as though the organization itself has gone down the :flush:


----------



## LionsGate

Firehazard said:


> Okay,, Okay,,, If you think the ABPT is DOES NOT NEED TO BE A GAME BRED DOG, then take all those Stratton Books, and APBT books written by Colby, Rocca, Faron, Seminic, and pitch them in the trash because you obviously know more about the breed than they do.... The APBT is a game bred dog, or should be... I believe the horse is mush :roll:


I've own all of Seminic, Colby, and Stratton's books and have read them cover to cover, in addition to others.

Seminic has actually been proven to have mis-represented information on several occassions. A simple Google search can verify that.

Stratton and Colby's opinions I put much more weight to. And I'm not saying they were wrong.

All I am asking is this - What is the point of a true, game bred dog in today's society?


----------



## Firehazard

LionsGate said:


> I've own all of Seminic, Colby, and Stratton's books and have read them cover to cover, in addition to others.
> 
> Seminic has actually been proven to have mis-represented information on several occassions. A simple Google search can verify that.
> 
> Stratton and Colby's opinions I put much more weight to. And I'm not saying they were wrong.
> 
> All I am asking is this - What is the point of a true, game bred dog in today's society?


THen what is the purpose of an APBT is what your saying? SUPPORTING the BSL and don't even know it 

I recognized Seminics faults in his readings however he does agree with the men like Stratton, Stevens, Faron, Colby, in the fact the APBT is a game bred NON HA dog. I mention the books that have the most availability.


----------



## geisthexe

GOTTA LOVE IGNORANCE AT ITS FINEST !!!!!!


----------



## NorCalTim

RE:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalTim View Post
A pure bred Bully is mixed bred American Pit Bull TERRIER.

If it is not a Terrier, it is not an APBT.
The American Bully is not a Terrier. It can not swim with seals and do all of the things a pure bred Bull Dog can do.

The American Bully in NOT A PIT BULL, its an American Bully.


Reply from LionsGate:
The APBT stems from several breeds being mixed together to create a dog for a certain purpose. The APBT in itself, is a mutt. Yes, it has a standard that was adopted and accepted, but it doesn't change the fact that in it's inception it was the exact same thing you accus the American Bully of being.

I will post some pictures of my "Bullies" performing with a true red/rednose APBT. They are as long winded as she was, and can perform to the level she did in any task....

///////////



Wrong.
The other Bull dogs came from the currently called APBT, visible in hunting photos from the 1600s and earlier.:roll:

That is, however, a common misconception. :rain:The origins of the APBT, and the hidden trait of gameness it has been bred for, will always be debated.


----------



## Firehazard

Bandog Mastiffs

w








The Hyrcanian Mastiff "lion dog"

Mastiff Menagerie


----------



## gamer

> The only other "ICK" dog behind my dogs is Steelhead's Giant Q-ball. She was Watchdog blood, and her ancestry is where the mixing came into play. You can see the AB in her. When I got involved with the "XL" dogs, I wasn't nearly as knowledgeable as I am now. One of the reasons I am moving away from, and breeding that blood "out" of my lines.


Lionsgate no matter how much you want to breed the AB blood from your dogs they are still going to be mixed mutts that should not be registered just because you can. That right there proves our point you guys are breeding mutts.



> It has only been PROVEN that papers were hung on one litter. And none of the dogs that had hung papers stayed on ICK's yard - they were all sold. *And it wasn't a case of ICK using another breed to mix in - it was a case of a dual-sired litter and ICK sent in a registration with the wrong stud listed as the sire. *


Your not the sharpest tool in the shed if you believe this.


----------



## Firehazard

gamer said:


> Lionsgate no matter how much you want to breed the AB blood from your dogs they are still going to be mixed mutts that should not be registered just because you can. That right there proves our point you guys are breeding mutts.
> 
> Your not the sharpest tool in the shed if you believe this.


:rofl: it just makes sense to me that they would just join in with whopper, giant, mammoth, lines as they are all bandogs, I think the American Bullmastiff or American Pit BullMastiff or American Bandog has a great ring to it  I also think American Game Dog has a ring or Original Game Bred Bulldogs(OG Bulldogs hahaha) LOL I think everyone knows what a APBT is or should be. Something needs to happen to diverge the dogs in identity, maybe they should be introduced into the working dog group 

What he's wanting to do, he would have to keep his favorite gyp and get rid of the other dogs and start finding gamebred dogs to choose a great stud from like a proven dog and then take the daughter back to the proven dog and then take that and double back... That is how you will washout characteristics and eventually you can get far enough away through the game dogs to double back to the gyp and line it out kinda like they did them honeybunch litters... BUT unlike honeybunch, they are STILL bandogs.. Unless I guess you send a dog OTC to be proven, then I guess you would be Proven...


----------



## 9361

The day they take away our right to have a true well preserved APBT game dog is the day our American spirit dies!










Game dogs are not meant for everyone to own, and people who want to own an APBT but can't handle the "game" can own a UKC show line dog, or a watered down dog from game lines. But I agree that the APBT should be preserved in it's fullest. What is a beagle who won't chase rabbits? What is a labrador who won't retrieve ducks?

If you can't deal with the DA and the drive of this breed and you want to breed it out or create another breed to get what you desire you are no longer breeding "pit bulls" so please don't let the word "pit bull" get anywhere near your dogs!

The day they take away our rights to own an AMERICAN breed, they will take more and more dogs away til we are all stuck with mutantly imbred little foo foo mutts.

American Home of the FREE and the BRAVE!!!!


----------



## LionsGate

gamer said:


> Lionsgate no matter how much you want to breed the AB blood from your dogs they are still going to be mixed mutts that should not be registered just because you can. That right there proves our point you guys are breeding mutts.
> 
> *Your not the sharpest tool in the shed if you believe thi*s.


The problem with your statement here, is that I don't have to believe anything at all.....

Not only was I the person that filed the DNA challenge on Iron Cross that got them banned, I've been around Iron Cross and it's owner for years. I also physically interacted with his dogs on a daily basis for almost a year.

I know where Disciple, Osiris, Maiden, Piranha, Q-Ball, Tyson, Phoenix and some of his other foundation stock came from. I owned Tyson for the last 3 years of his life, and I actually kept and cared for some of the other ICK dogs. Anything that came after those dogs, i.e. Stalefish I wasn't around for.

Unless you work for the UKC - you have absolutely no idea why ICK was banned. Period. The only things you "know" are hearsay. So do you work at the UKC?


----------



## 9361

Oh and one more thing as it was explained to me by game dog owners and breeders. If you breed out DA you never know what other valuable traits you are breeding out with it.


----------



## gamer

LionsGate said:


> The problem with your statement here, is that I don't have to believe anything at all.....
> 
> Not only was I the person that filed the DNA challenge on Iron Cross that got them banned, I've been around Iron Cross and it's owner for years. I also physically interacted with his dogs on a daily basis for almost a year.
> 
> I know where Disciple, Osiris, Maiden, Piranha, Q-Ball, Tyson, Phoenix and some of his other foundation stock came from. I owned Tyson for the last 3 years of his life, and I actually kept and cared for some of the other ICK dogs. Anything that came after those dogs, i.e. Stalefish I wasn't around for.
> 
> Unless you work for the UKC - you have absolutely no idea why ICK was banned. Period. The only things you "know" are hearsay. So do you work at the UKC?


Nope dont work for them but it doesnt take a genius to see they are mixed.


----------



## Firehazard

Shes Got Heart said:


> The day they take away our right to have a true well preserved APBT game dog is the day our American spirit dies!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Game dogs are not meant for everyone to own, and people who want to own an APBT but can't handle the "game" can own a UKC show line dog, or a watered down dog from game lines. But I agree that the APBT should be preserved in it's fullest. What is a beagle who won't chase rabbits? What is a labrador who won't retrieve ducks?
> 
> If you can't deal with the DA and the drive of this breed and you want to breed it out or create another breed to get what you desire you are no longer breeding "pit bulls" so please don't let the word "pit bull" get anywhere near your dogs!
> 
> The day they take away our rights to own an AMERICAN breed, they will take more and more dogs away til we are all stuck with mutantly imbred little foo foo mutts.
> 
> American Home of the FREE and the BRAVE!!!!


:goodpost::clap::clap::clap::goodpost:


----------



## j-crash

I'm all for preserving the breed (even if i'm not interested in owning one) but, i have been wondering this for a while and this seems like the perfect place to ask it. why would any of you want a "game" apbt? I don't just mean it came from game lines, i mean its truly DA. that is like my worst nightmare... "no i cant come over because of the dog" "no you can't bring your dog over mine will try to kill it" Honestly what is the point of that in todays society (where dog fighting is illegal) and why would you want to deal with that. 

again, i'm just asking a question, not trying to pick a fight with anybody.


----------



## Bethb2007

j-crash said:


> I'm all for preserving the breed (even if i'm not interested in owning one) but, i have been wondering this for a while and this seems like the perfect place to ask it. why would any of you want a "game" apbt? I don't just mean it came from game lines, i mean its truly DA. that is like my worst nightmare... "no i cant come over because of the dog" "no you can't bring your dog over mine will try to kill it" Honestly what is the point of that in todays society (where dog fighting is illegal) and why would you want to deal with that.
> 
> again, i'm just asking a question, not trying to pick a fight with anybody.


Actually, IMO, all the bull and terrier breeds have some level of dog aggression. I have seen tons of pit bull mixxes that were not gamebred, but were severely dog aggressive. So, just becuase someone breeds away from game lines, does not mean the dogs will be less agressive. So, I guess if you are going to have dog aggression anyway, you may as well get/have a real pit bull. :')


----------



## Bethb2007

Shes Got Heart said:


> Oh and one more thing as it was explained to me by game dog owners and breeders. If you breed out DA you never know what other valuable traits you are breeding out with it.


I think you are right on this one. Over the years I have seen tons of breeders/owners/hobbyists breed for non-dog aggression. They often prefer to allow their dogs to run in packs and walk on spreaders together. I have noticed that it does seem like they end up breeding al ot of other traits out as well, such as drive and energy level.


----------



## j-crash

Bethb2007 said:


> Actually, IMO, all the bull and terrier breeds have some level of dog aggression. I have seen tons of pit bull mixxes that were not gamebred, but were severely dog aggressive. So, just becuase someone breeds away from game lines, does not mean the dogs will be less agressive. So, I guess if you are going to have dog aggression anyway, you may as well get/have a real pit bull. :')


thats very true, but i still would like to be able to take my dogs to a friends house, or have them come to mine. i'm not saying throw the dogs in the back yard and leave them all day, but at least be able to take them over and socialize them. i guess thats why i really liked my parents amstaff while i was growing up (he's 12 and still going strong) he was extremely social and was the last dog you had to worry about snapping at anything.

and you're right i don't want a "real" pitbull or what most people on here would consider a "real" apbt, i was just wondering why they do.


----------



## dixieland

Shes Got Heart said:


> Oh and one more thing as it was explained to me by game dog owners and breeders. If you breed out DA you never know what other valuable traits you are breeding out with it.





Bethb2007 said:


> I think you are right on this one. Over the years I have seen tons of breeders/owners/hobbyists breed for non-dog aggression. They often prefer to allow their dogs to run in packs and walk on spreaders together. I have noticed that it does seem like they end up breeding al ot of other traits out as well, such as drive and energy level.


:goodpost: 
For these reasons right here j-crash.And also people want the original and truest form of a breed of dog that they love.If you say you (not you personally,people in general) love a apbt but don't love what all goes along with it.Then you don't love a apbt.
Like has been said before a apbt is not for everyon.If you want like the way they look but don't like what all goes along with owning one,then they are not the breed for you.There are several others breeds that would suffice for these people.
When I first came to this site I didn't know a apbt from a bully.I thought they were one in the same.Since being here and learning I have come to love the apbt in it's truest form and everything that these dogs represent.ANd if I have to be more responsible and deal with DA to have them,well then that's just the price I'm willing to pay.


----------



## j-crash

Bethb2007 said:


> I think you are right on this one. Over the years I have seen tons of breeders/owners/hobbyists breed for non-dog aggression. They often prefer to allow their dogs to run in packs and walk on spreaders together. I have noticed that it does seem like they end up breeding al ot of other traits out as well, such as drive and energy level.


zeus (my parents amstaff) while having very little to no DA still had/has plenty of drive and energy many a rodent or wandering feral cat met their demise in my parents back yard (regardless of the 6ft. privacy fence) and it is not a small area their is 1 acre fenced in in the back. as for being energetic, at 12 years old i can still get him to play until i take the ball or tug rope (gotta watch the old mans teeth ) away. heck he even caught a rabbit last week. great dog high prey drive, tons of energy no propble ever with DA but he is a "show" bread dog off of ch. bearfoot's souix city scout.


----------



## dixieland

j-crash said:


> zeus (my parents amstaff) while having very little to no DA still had/has plenty of drive and energy many a rodent or wandering feral cat met their demise in my parents back yard (regardless of the 6ft. privacy fence) and it is not a small area their is 1 acre fenced in in the back. as for being energetic, at 12 years old i can still get him to play until i take the ball or tug rope (gotta watch the old mans teeth ) away. heck he even caught a rabbit last week. great dog high prey drive, tons of energy no propble ever with DA but he is a "show" bread dog off of ch. bearfoot's souix city scout.


Well that could be just about any dog.My chow chow I had growing up used to do all that too.


----------



## aimee235

This is off topic but am I the only one laughing when you say 

ICK and Stalefish?

I don't know how many people have fish here, but it's making me giggle.


----------



## dixieland

aimee235 said:


> This is off topic but am I the only one laughing when you say
> 
> ICK and Stalefish?
> 
> I don't know how many people have fish here, but it's making me giggle.


:rofl: HAHA!


----------



## j-crash

dixieland said:


> :goodpost:
> For these reasons right here j-crash.And also people want the original and truest form of a breed of dog that they love.If you say you (not you personally,people in general) love a apbt but don't love what all goes along with it.*Then you don't love a apbt*.
> Like has been said before a apbt is not for everyon.If you want like the way they look but don't like what all goes along with owning one,then they are not the breed for you.There are several others breeds that would suffice for these people.
> When I first came to this site I didn't know a apbt from a bully.I thought they were one in the same.Since being here and learning I have come to love the apbt in it's truest form and everything that these dogs represent.ANd if I have to be more responsible and deal with DA to have them,well then that's just the price *I'm willing to pay.*


well then i guess i don't

and as far as the DA i'm not. that is why i said i appreciate the dog, but have absolutely NO NEED for a highly DA dog! and i still don't understand why anyone else does.


----------



## dixieland

j-crash said:


> well then i guess i don't
> 
> and as far as the DA i'm not. that is why i said i appreciate the dog, but have absolutely NO NEED for a highly DA dog! and i still don't understand why anyone else does.


It's about owning the purest form of that breed.In any breed of dog you get,wouldn't you want the original,truest,purest form of that breed and not some washed down version of it?


----------



## j-crash

aimee235 said:


> This is off topic but am I the only one laughing when you say
> 
> ICK and Stalefish?
> 
> I don't know how many people have fish here, but it's making me giggle.


i was just about to explain to you that "stalefish" is a skateboard move... then i realized you meant "ICK" as in Ichthyophthirius multifiliis... white spots 

hahaha


----------



## j-crash

dixieland said:


> It's about owning the purest form of that breed.In any breed of dog you get,wouldn't you want the original,truest,purest form of that breed and not some washed down version of it?


no... absolutely not! not if it was DA! i don't care how "pure" in form the dog is if its DA it will be a pita for me and that is not something it want to deal with AT ALL!!!


----------



## dixieland

j-crash said:


> no... absolutely not! not if it was DA! i don't care how "pure" in form the dog is if its DA it will be a pita for me and that is not something it want to deal with AT ALL!!!


Well then I hate to tell you that even owning a bully,you're not in the clear of DA.Bullies come from pits as well as a few other breeds that are in some form DA.So just because he's not DA now doesn't mean he'll stay that way.


----------



## j-crash

dixieland said:


> Well then I hate to tell you that even owning a bully,you're not in the clear of DA.Bullies come from pits as well as a few other breeds that are in some form DA.So just because he's not DA now doesn't mean he'll stay that way.


i don't have a problem with that just about any dog could be DA my girlfriends 6 pound yorkie is the worst DA dog i have ever seen. right now harry is fine around other dogs and is socialized often. if DA becomes a problem however he will be gone (pts) just like any other dog i would own, because im NOT dealing with it.


----------



## dixieland

j-crash said:


> i don't have a problem with that just about any dog could be DA my girlfriends 6 pound yorkie is the worst DA dog i have ever seen. right now harry is fine around other dogs and is socialized often. if DA becomes a problem however he will be gone (pts) just like any other dog i would own, because im NOT dealing with it.


Then why did you get this kind of dog if it's not something you're willing to deal with.So you would pts your dog for acting like a dog?You just said yourself that just about any dog can be DA.Why didn't you get a cat instead?


----------



## j-crash

dixieland said:


> Then why did you get this kind of dog if it's not something you're willing to deal with.So you would pts your dog for acting like a dog?You just said yourself that just about any dog can be DA.Why didn't you get a cat instead?


i hate cats

p.s. i have seen far more cats than dogs bite/attack people, dogs, other cats, etc.


----------



## j-crash

dixieland said:


> Then why did you get this kind of dog if it's not something you're willing to deal with.So you would pts your dog for acting like a dog?You just said yourself that just about any dog can be DA.Why didn't you get a cat instead?


thats not acting like a dog. thats acting like something that someone bred into a dog, and if the dog can still be high energy and be active with me (or lounge on the couch with me) thats fine. i personally don't want a DA dog, if you do then thats fine, thats what is great about this country (at least my part of it) its just something else you have to worry about though, and its not something that i want to worry about.


----------



## Indigo Bully Connection

IDK, DA isn't something that i LOVE, but it is not something I couldn't work with. It's just part of the package. Personally, for me.. dog aggression isn't something that i would breed FOR, but I wouldn't rule out a dang good representative of what I want to accomplish with my animals program because it was dog aggressive. I may sound retarded for it and I may be wrong, but IMO, DA is a drive for these dogs.

One way I have made dog aggression work for me (I know it's not conventional, and IDK if it's the right thing to do, but it's what worked for me), and with Peggy. She lost interest in her flirt pole after I put it away for a few months... that interest in the flirt pole is prey drive... I got cree out who is not dog aggressive, but is extremely driven for the pole. I had doug hold peggy on a leash and harness while I played the flirt pole with cree just out of reach of peggy. Peggy got so fired up watching cree, I removed cree from the equasion, and peggy was right back to her old self, a diehard for the flirt pole.

Like it was said before, dog aggression dogs not equal gameness.

EDIT: I hate to break the news to anyone, but these bulldogs are not supposed to be pets that you can take on doggy outings to play with other animals. They have been bred for hundreds of years with a purpose behind every breeding. Not until the last 40ish years or so for the vast majority of the population has the change in needs for these animals. You cannot undo centuries in only a half a century. Also, why would you want to?


----------



## SARGEnNIKITA

j-crash said:


> thats not acting like a dog. thats acting like something that someone bred into a dog, and if the dog can still be high energy and be active with me (or lounge on the couch with me) thats fine. i personally don't want a DA dog, if you do then thats fine, thats what is great about this country (at least my part of it) its just something else you have to worry about though, and its not something that i want to worry about.


I am sorry J-crash if you are willing to put down a dog especially one that has APBT backround in it (ie the Bully) then you are no different IMO then the senseless BYBing that contributes to the hundreds of "pit bulls" getting killed each year in shelters. If you are never willing to deal with the fact that ANY breed of dog can develop DA especially any form of this breed then you do not need to own a dog.

I watch dogs die daily because people get them and love them when they are cute and cuddly but as soon as a problem arises rather than dealing with the LIFELONG COMMITMENT they made to that animal they instead take it to a shelter where people like me have to kill it after 72 hours because it does not get adopted...

All of your comments are a real shame and disappointment to me personally... RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DOG FOR ITS ENTIRE LIFE is something you should consider with any dog you have or plan on getting...


----------



## LionsGate

Firehazard said:


> :rofl: it just makes sense to me that they would just join in with whopper, giant, mammoth, lines as they are all bandogs, I think the American Bullmastiff or American Pit BullMastiff or American Bandog has a great ring to it  I also think American Game Dog has a ring or Original Game Bred Bulldogs(OG Bulldogs hahaha) LOL I think everyone knows what a APBT is or should be. Something needs to happen to diverge the dogs in identity, maybe they should be introduced into the working dog group
> 
> What he's wanting to do, he would have to keep his favorite gyp and get rid of the other dogs and start finding gamebred dogs to choose a great stud from like a proven dog and then take the daughter back to the proven dog and then take that and double back... That is how you will washout characteristics and eventually you can get far enough away through the game dogs to double back to the gyp and line it out kinda like they did them honeybunch litters... BUT unlike honeybunch, they are STILL bandogs.. Unless I guess you send a dog OTC to be proven, then I guess you would be Proven...


See, here is some logical content I can agree with...

Should there be a distinction put forth on the difference between the style of dogs that I breed and say, a dog that stems from lines like Sorrels, Colby, Mayday, etc? Absolutely. They are not the same dog, I am not trying to say that there is ZERO difference between the two, that would be idiotic.

If the UKC would wake up and realize that they could actually make MORE money by instituting a new breed - American Giant Bulldog, American Giant PitBull, or whatever - then there are plenty of us who would gladly move away from the stigma associated with the current breed name. Why would I be one of the first ones to do it? Because the American general public is so naive that when people ask what kind of dog I'm walking, and I say "It's an AmStaff" the reaction is completely different than when I say "It's a Pitbull". I take my dogs to dog parks, have for years. I keep my dogs together as a pack, males and females, again have for years.

My point is that my dogs are contain more genetics and blood from that stem from APBT's & AmStaff's than any other breed. The pre-dominant blood running through their veins is APBT/AmStaff, thus this is what I call them. They're not bandogges, no matter how you try to argue it. Someone already referenced John Swindle, he is the only breeder I've ever found that has true consistency in his bandogges. To me, bandogge is nothing more than a slop together of random breeds that cannot reproduce any semblance of consistency. There is a consistency to my dogs, being that they all stem in one way or another from the same dog (Iron Tyson) and the more I breed, the more consistent that gets.

As for what you said about "keep his favorite gyp and get rid of the other dogs and start finding gamebred dogs to choose a great stud from like a proven dog"....I am doing exactly that, except in the reverse. I am picking up a female from a pure OFRN stud and a UKC CH female, with long, long, long lines of UKC CH dogs behind her. The breeder I'm getting her from has been breeding APBT's and turning them into UKC CH for longer than I have been alive. My point to this? I'm going to run this pure bitch into 2 or 3 of my studs, then line-breed them back to one another making her blood the dominant blood in the line. Is it "pure" by your standards? No. Will I have the most "pure" line of XL dogs out? Damn near.

My only question though - with your last statement, you're basically saying that if I had one of my dogs "proven" - then you'd consider it an APBT?


----------



## Firehazard

aimee235 said:


> This is off topic but am I the only one laughing when you say
> 
> ICK and Stalefish?
> 
> I don't know how many people have fish here, but it's making me giggle.


:rofl::rofl: NO, your not the only one :rofl::rofl:


----------



## j-crash

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> I am sorry J-crash if you are willing to put down a dog especially one that has APBT backround in it (ie the Bully) then you are no different IMO then the senseless BYBing that contributes to the hundreds of "pit bulls" getting killed each year in shelters. If you are never willing to deal with the fact that ANY breed of dog can develop DA especially any form of this breed then you do not need to own a dog.
> 
> I watch dogs die daily because people get them and love them when they are cute and cuddly but as soon as a problem arises rather than dealing with the LIFELONG COMMITMENT they made to that animal they instead take it to a shelter where people like me have to kill it after 72 hours because it does not get adopted...
> 
> All of your comments are a real shame and disappointment to me personally... RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DOG FOR ITS ENTIRE LIFE is something you should consider with any dog you have or plan on getting...


i understand that any breed can develop DA i however would not keep a dog that was strongly DA, so much so that i couldn't trust to keep it around other dogs. i also believe that if they are not born with it, but develop the DA like you stated then there are things you can do to prevent the DA or nip it in the bud when you see it starting. i also would not drop the dog off at the shelter if i had a problem that *became* unmanageable, the dog would go to the vet not the shelter. i'm not going to put a problematic dog in someone else's home. 
i understand it sounds bad, and i sound like a terrible person but that is the absolute worst case scenario, and i almost feel you would have to set yourself up for such a failure. i understand that a game bred dog is likely to have DA, but i believe when you get a "watered down" (bully) or show version (amstaff), not specifically game bred then then nature vs. nurture plays a bigger role in the dogs temperament, and god willing there won't be any problems.


----------



## LionsGate

Bethb2007 said:


> I think you are right on this one. Over the years I have seen tons of breeders/owners/hobbyists breed for non-dog aggression. They often prefer to allow their dogs to run in packs and walk on spreaders together. I have noticed that it does seem like they end up breeding al ot of other traits out as well, such as drive and energy level.


You can breed out DA without losing drive and energy, to a point. A lot of it comes down to training and having control of your dogs.

Remember one of the most inherent traits of an APBT is their willingness to please. Their ability to understand what their master wants them to do and attack that task with every ounce of ability in their body. I have a yard full of dogs that will go at any task I ask of them with their entire spirit - including another dog if that's what I asked them to do. But I have never, and will never tolerate that kind of behavior.

Does this mean that left to their own devices at all times there would never be a fight? Absolutely not. These are dogs, and they stem from APBT's - at some level they will ALL fight. It's learning how to selectively breed that out and more importantly TRAIN it out them, so that you don't have a dog that wants nothing but to kill every animal it ever lays eyes on....


----------



## LionsGate

Firehazard said:


> THen what is the purpose of an APBT is what your saying? SUPPORTING the BSL and don't even know it
> 
> I recognized Seminics faults in his readings however he does agree with the men like Stratton, Stevens, Faron, Colby, in the fact the APBT is a game bred NON HA dog. I mention the books that have the most availability.


Supporting BSL? :rofl:

I donate more $ and time to fighting BSL than 95% of APBT owners out there. Not to mention, I'm doing the game dog fanciers a favor - when I go out in public with 3 and 4 of my dogs all together, and people see that really - these dogs aren't just evil murderers that the media makes them out to be, it changes perceptions. Not every time, but it's efforts like mine that will help turn the tide. No, APBT's are not for everyone. I tell people that all the time. But whats better, turning a blind eye to BSL and just keeping your dogs chained up in the backyard for their lives with the mentality that those of us who try and change the image of the breed are "wrong"?

And who said anything about an HA dog? No dog should be HA, unless specifically trained to be - and even then I disagree with it. APBT's especially should not be HA. You can have a PP dog that is sociable and able to be around strangers without wanting to kill them on sight.


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## Elvisfink

LionsGate said:


> Tyson's blood came from UKC & AKC champions. But then again you probably consider any APBT that was bred with an AST a "mutt"...
> ...


Why yes I do! I've stated that many timed. I am a fan of both the APBT and the AST, but not a fan of mixing them together.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

j-crash said:


> i understand that any breed can develop DA *i however would not keep a dog that was strongly DA, so much so that i couldn't trust to keep it around other dogs.* i also believe that if they are not born with it, *but develop the DA like you stated then there are things you can do to prevent the DA or nip it in the bud when you see it starting.* i also would not drop the dog off at the shelter if i had a problem that *became* unmanageable, the dog would go to the vet not the shelter. i'm not going to put a problematic dog in someone else's home.
> i understand it sounds bad, and i sound like a terrible person but that is the absolute worst case scenario, and i almost feel you would have to set yourself up for such a failure. * i understand that a game bred dog is likely to have DA, but i believe when you get a "watered down" (bully) or show version (amstaff), not specifically game bred then then nature vs. nurture plays a bigger role in the dogs temperament*, and god willing there won't be any problems.


Strongly DA describes this breed in general!! And the other comments I bolded are you saying that YOU can train DA out of a dog? No one in this world for hundreds of years has been able to TRAIN DA out of a dog (this breed) BUT YOU can!?! Nuff Said :hammer::hammer::hammer:


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## j-crash

Elvisfink said:


> Why yes I do! I've stated that many timed. I am a fan of both the APBT and the AST, but not a fan of mixing them together.


what about the dual registered dogs?... i thought they were from the same lines.

again just asking questions, not trying to start and argument.


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## gamer

j-crash said:


> I'm all for preserving the breed (even if i'm not interested in owning one) but, i have been wondering this for a while and this seems like the perfect place to ask it. why would any of you want a "game" apbt? I don't just mean it came from game lines, i mean its truly DA. that is like my worst nightmare... "no i cant come over because of the dog" "no you can't bring your dog over mine will try to kill it" Honestly what is the point of that in todays society (where dog fighting is illegal) and why would you want to deal with that.
> 
> again, i'm just asking a question, not trying to pick a fight with anybody.


the question is why would you get a pit bull if you dont like to deal with DA?


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## LionsGate

*They HAVE to be DA?? And you CAN'T train it out??*

For certain, not every dog. But it has been done, and can be done...































































































































And for reference, my original APBT. May she Rest in Peace and Power.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._551155498407_60605465_32738614_2677062_n.jpg


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## gamer

LionsGate said:


> *You can breed out DA without losing drive and energy, to a point. A lot of it comes down to training and having control of your dogs. *
> 
> R.


just get mastiffs



LionsGate said:


> Supporting BSL? :rofl:
> 
> I donate more $ and time to fighting BSL than 95% of APBT owners out there. Not to mention, I'm doing the game dog fanciers a favor - when I go out in public with 3 and 4 of my dogs all together, and people see that really - these dogs aren't just evil murderers that the media makes them out to be, it changes perceptions. Not every time, but it's efforts like mine that will help turn the tide. No, APBT's are not for everyone. I tell people that all the time. But whats better, turning a blind eye to BSL and just keeping your dogs chained up in the backyard for their lives with the mentality that those of us who try and change the image of the breed are "wrong"?
> 
> And who said anything about an HA dog? No dog should be HA, unless specifically trained to be - and even then I disagree with it. APBT's especially should not be HA. You can have a PP dog that is sociable and able to be around strangers without wanting to kill them on sight.


Good since IMHO XXL pit bull breeders are 95% of this breeds poroblem


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## Indigo Bully Connection

j-crash said:


> i understand that any breed can develop DA i however would not keep a dog that was strongly DA, so much so that i couldn't trust to keep it around other dogs. i also believe that if they are not born with it, but develop the DA like you stated then there are things you can do to prevent the DA or nip it in the bud when you see it starting. i also would not drop the dog off at the shelter if i had a problem that *became* unmanageable, the dog would go to the vet not the shelter. i'm not going to put a problematic dog in someone else's home.
> i understand it sounds bad, and i sound like a terrible person but that is the absolute worst case scenario, and i almost feel you would have to set yourself up for such a failure. i understand that a game bred dog is likely to have DA, but i believe when you get a "watered down" (bully) or show version (amstaff), not specifically game bred then then nature vs. nurture plays a bigger role in the dogs temperament, and god willing there won't be any problems.


You can train a DA dog to focus on you and ignore another dog, but you cannot train the DA out of the dog. Often times DA does develope, and there are some that are firecrackers from the start.

DA often comes with the maturing mindset of a bulldog. It has always been there underneathe the surface. Most owners don't notice DA developing until it is too late. Socializing for dog tollerance for an APBT or any bully breed needs to be decensitizing, not buddies. If someone believes that their bulldog will keep his buddies for his entire life, the owner is sadly mistaken what's even worse is that these dogs were set up for failure from the jump start because people seem to insist that their dogs will be the exception to the rule.


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## APBTHAUS

LionsGate said:


> For certain, not every dog. But it has been done, and can be done...
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Great looking dogs you got there!! They look like they had a blast!


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## Indigo Bully Connection

LionsGate said:


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I could never do this even with my bullies. Off leash????


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## j-crash

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Strongly *DA describes this breed in general!!* And the other comments I bolded are you saying that YOU can train DA out of a dog? No one in this world for hundreds of years has been able to *TRAIN DA out of a dog* (this breed) BUT YOU can!?! Nuff Said :hammer::hammer::hammer:


by the looks of your avatar your dogs seem to get along fine. but, what would you do if every time they saw each other one of them tried to kill the other?
would you really keep both of the dogs in your house still? or would you get rid of the dog causing the problem?

i'm not saying that i would train DA out of a dog. i would not take possession of a dog i knew to be DA. i will however start with a puppy that came from non DA dogs and socialize him constantly and try my darnedest to not allow him to become dog aggressive... just like i (my family) did with all of the dogs i had growing up. we never crated dogs when we left (after they were housebroken adults) and i never came home to a house with a bloody or dead dog, and there was ALWAYS at least 2, usually 3 dogs at a time in the house (and its not like we had golden-doodles).

its not like i want to get rid of my dog... i love my dog and i don't really see any of this happening, its all hypothetical really, because i honestly dont foresee anything like that happening


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## gamer

I was just gonna say Off leash intact pit bulls brilliant idea dear watson


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## j-crash

gamer said:


> the question is why would you get a pit bull if you dont like to deal with DA?


the dog in my avatar would not be considered apbt by anyone on this board... his parents were 110lbs and 85lbs.


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## Indigo Bully Connection

j-crash said:


> by the looks of your avatar your dogs seem to get along fine. but, what would you do if every time they saw each other one of them tried to kill the other?
> would you really keep both of the dogs in your house still? or would you get rid of the dog causing the problem?
> 
> i'm not saying that i would train DA out of a dog. i would not take possession of a dog i knew to be DA. i will however start with a puppy that came from non DA dogs and socialize him constantly and try my darnedest to not allow him to become dog aggressive... just like i (my family) did with all of the dogs i had growing up. we never crated dogs when we left (after they were housebroken adults) and i never came home to a house with a bloody or dead dog, and there was ALWAYS at least 2, usually 3 dogs at a time in the house (and its not like we had golden-doodles).
> 
> its not like i want to get rid of my dog... i love my dog and i don't really see any of this happening, its all hypothetical really, because i honestly dont foresee anything like that happening


It has happened to me 4 times already... seven dogs. I don't get rid of my dogs for a trait that is associated with bulldogs, rather I adjust my homes function. When I take an animal into my home I make a commitment to them.


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## dixieland

Not putting down your dogs at all Lionsgate.In fact when it comes to bullies,I think you have some of the best looking out there.
But you can't tell me that those dogs don't have any Mastiff in them!Which would also explain the easiness (sp) of your being able to breed DA out of them.


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## j-crash

gamer said:


> I was just gonna say Off leash intact pit bulls brilliant idea dear watson


not that i would make a habit out of it but i wouldnt be worried about my (parents) amstaff off leash (and he is intact). the dog is well trained and follows directions on or off leash if he is in a sit/stay, or heeled up you could entice him with anything you want and he won't move or leave my side. if he is just roaming the yard and playing i could stop that dog with one word if he decided to go after or chase something. i'm not saying that you don't have control over your dogs... i don't know you, but i have control over mine for that dog, the leash is merely a formality due to the law and because you don't need some soccer mom calling ac on you because you have a baby killer of a dog off leash.


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## Firehazard

LionsGate said:


> See, here is some logical content I can agree with...
> 
> My only question though - with your last statement, you're basically saying that if I had one of my dogs "proven" - then you'd consider it an APBT?


Your not gonna breed that out with show dogs  esspecially OFRN dogs which are known for being big, yes I have seen small wirey lil OFRN dogs MY FAVS of all dogs except the rare 27lb Jocko dogs, BUT most OFRN dogs today have been bred to be large and less are being proven ONCE renowned for being the gamest stock out there, like the Amstaff they are all paper Ch's. Use some tight Norrod or Sarona its tightly bred from proven stock. People don't get it, they read it, they hear it but they don't get it. The Game bred Bulldog is the pit bulldog it is the Pit Bull Terrier of today and the legendary traits that come with the dog come from breeding it for game which is an "invisible" trait, meaning you have to wait to see what its mentality is like along with athleticsim and intelligence before breeding it, and IMO only proven stock should be bred.

I retired my jocko/redboy line and my kennel associated with it, AbiShai Kennels, small Okie countryside kennel.. I will breed again using Bozz Hog aka Hoagie ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [129856] :: J.B.'S BOZZ HOG







who is not proven but obviously from proven stock. Compare to the REAL BULLDOG from the OLD WORLD pictured on the RIGHT with present day English Bulldog on the left,







. I will be taken him to a proven bitch or a pup from a litter of two proven dogs because I will be breeding APBTs, not anything else. Yes I probably will sell a dog OTC or send a dog OTC to be proven, because to be a PROVEN APBT it required 2wins well just because the PAPER LAW changed doesn't change the DOG.

here is SPike from Hooch X Yager, Hooches sire was proven, I bred Hooch to a APBT registered AKC ADBA she was colby/lightner dog after a couple of father daughter breedings I took an Wilder/CHBullsht/ChFrdT outcross that inbred back through the lightner/colby through a half sibling. Then brd Hooch back into it so he is 4x hooch 6gen, Not proven but from proven stock. 















he's fixed as well and is my bear biter, LOL he loves that sht.. But everyone thinks he's an AMSTAFF, because originally Amstaff comes from game bred dogs, they just took the pretty ones and put a show title on them, then started breeding for show losing the trait of the dog inwhich they honor and value so much. I show you only to inspire you to look more into a proven line that is dual or trip registered.

But you openly agree you and others may take your dogs to another category if the UKC, AKC,ADBA would open up more, well petition and get your American Pit Bull Mastiff or American Bandog started for all ya'll big dog owners to join. I think they need to put the APBT in the working class ANYWAY and that would help divide the function of the dogs and therefore the type or the breed.

Theres is a big difference in looking like a pitbull and being a pitbull 

Everyone wants the lil' stick of dynamite, but no one wants to deal with the sweating nitro


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## j-crash

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> It has happened to me 4 times already... seven dogs. I don't get rid of my dogs for a trait that is associated with bulldogs, rather I adjust my homes function. When I take an animal into my home I make a commitment to them.


in my opinion that is 3 times too many but you have 7 dogs which i would never do (i thought 3 was too many growing up) and to each their own. i personally would not put up with it, if we live together we all get along, or the trouble maker goes.

i am enjoying these discussions, but im off to the truck pulls at the fair... i will check back later tonight. i'm sure there will be plenty to read!

btw... beautiful dogs lg!!


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## j-crash

Firehazard said:


> Your not gonna breed that out with show dogs  esspecially OFRN dogs which are known for being big, yes I have seen small wirey lil OFRN dogs MY FAVS of all dogs except the rare 27lb Jocko dogs, BUT most OFRN dogs today have been bred to be large and less are being proven ONCE renowned for being the gamest stock out there, like the Amstaff they are all paper Ch's. Use some tight Norrod or Sarona its tightly bred from proven stock. People don't get it, they read it, they hear it but they don't get it. The Game bred Bulldog is the pit bulldog it is the Pit Bull Terrier of today and the legendary traits that come with the dog come from breeding it for game which is an "invisible" trait, meaning you have to wait to see what its mentality is like along with athleticsim and intelligence before breeding it, and IMO only proven stock should be bred.
> 
> I retired my jocko/redboy line and my kennel associated with it, AbiShai Kennels, small Okie countryside kennel.. I will breed again using Bozz Hog aka Hoagie ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [129856] :: J.B.'S BOZZ HOG
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> *
> here is SPike from Hooch X Yager, Hooches sire was proven, I bred Hooch to a APBT registered AKC ADBA she was colby/lightner dog after a couple of father daughter breedings I took an Wilder/CHBullsht/ChFrdT outcross that inbred back through the lightner/colby through a half sibling. Then brd Hooch back into it so he is 4x hooch 6gen, Not proven but from proven stock.
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> 
> But you openly agree you and others may take your dogs to another category if the UKC, AKC,ADBA would open up more, well petition and get your American Pit Bull Mastiff or American Bandog started for all ya'll big dog owners to join. I think they need to put the APBT in the working class ANYWAY and that would help divide the function of the dogs and therefore the type or the breed.
> 
> Theres is a big difference in looking like a pitbull and being a pitbull
> 
> Everyone wants the lil' stick of dynamite, but no one wants to deal with the sweating nitro


seriously!?!?


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## gamer

j-crash said:


> not that i would make a habit out of it but i wouldnt be worried about my (parents) amstaff off leash (and he is intact). the dog is well trained and follows directions on or off leash if he is in a sit/stay, or heeled up you could entice him with anything you want and he won't move or leave my side. if he is just roaming the yard and playing i could stop that dog with one word if he decided to go after or chase something. i'm not saying that you don't have control over your dogs... i don't know you, but i have control over mine for that dog, the leash is merely a formality due to the law and because you don't need some soccer mom calling ac on you because you have a baby killer of a dog off leash.


You cant say nothing will happen and be sure until the dog is dead anfd nothing happened. With this mindset I kinda wish you got into poodles, its thinking like yours that gets these dogs into trouble



j-crash said:


> in my opinion that is 3 times too many but you have 7 dogs which i would never do (i thought 3 was too many growing up) and to each their own. i personally would not put up with it, if we live together we all get along, or the trouble maker goes.
> 
> i am enjoying these discussions, but im off to the truck pulls at the fair... i will check back later tonight. i'm sure there will be plenty to read!
> 
> btw... beautiful dogs lg!!


Like I said Poodles that way you dont have to get rid of a dog for doing what it is suppose to do


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## Firehazard

Seriously  A proven APBT is different than a registered APBT  Why is the truth so hard for people to hear? Theres nothing Illegal about having a dog sold to a dog man OTC to prove the dog which doesn't hurt the line esspecially if you put out more than one proven dog. Im talking real dog men, who care about the dogs not gambling menwho run through dogs, those aren't dogmen JMO its about breeding proven stock nothing else just how I see it BLACK/WHITE all the gray is confusion to misguide the truth; Those dogs that go win OTC and come back are outstanding and look better than show dogs.. Just from what I've been told by old timers the way I condition my dogs to hunt hogs, coyotes, and bear is what most ppl do for the [], I move I hunt I work I need a dog that can do all that an whip a feral dog, kill a coyote, or take on a bear while my children play and THAT myfriend is a bulldog or APBT. As far as OTC wins Mayday and Lukane are prime examples, didn't they gather some wins down south of the border? Come back lookin like the Chs they were... I dunno, its all out there in crayon from what I can tell you disagree with the fact the APBT needs the game dog to stay pure; and needs to cycle back through show lines to keep them balanced mentally just because a dog is DA doesn't mean its unbalanced. Thats just fear and ignorance, the lack of knowing what to do, false evidence appearing real.. FEAR  I tell anyone and everyone who owns an APBT and does't want to deal with DA.


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## Firehazard

gamer said:


> You cant say nothing will happen and be sure until the dog is dead anfd nothing happened. With this mindset I kinda wish you got into poodles, its thinking like yours that gets these dogs into trouble
> 
> Like I said Poodles that way you dont have to get rid of a dog for doing what it is suppose to do


:goodpost::rofl:


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## NorCalTim

j-crash said:


> I'm all for preserving the breed (even if i'm not interested in owning one) but, i have been wondering this for a while and this seems like the perfect place to ask it. why would any of you want a "game" apbt? I don't just mean it came from game lines, i mean its truly DA. that is like my worst nightmare... "no i cant come over because of the dog" "no you can't bring your dog over mine will try to kill it" Honestly what is the point of that in todays society (where dog fighting is illegal) and why would you want to deal with that.
> 
> again, i'm just asking a question, not trying to pick a fight with anybody.


Some of the most game bred dogs would just sit on their porch and watch other dogs go by. Some were not that dog aggressive until it was time to "box". They , inside of them, fell as if they can "lick the whole world". It use to be said if you could win someone in a fight, or what not. "I licked him". It is a feeling of immense pride and holding yourself well.

So in getting to you answer, not all were DA. If you raise them from a young age, even the APBTs' that do not want to play with another dog walking up to it will try and tolerate them (sometimes).

Someone on this board was just surrounded by wolves, but had their APBT. On the 4th of July, New Yrs, and if someone shots a gun, they tend not to be scared at all. That makes a great family dog. Family Dog Takes Bullet to Save Family - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Game bred dogs were human friendly, or they were killed by the owned (99% of the time). This has created the most human friendly breed walking the Earth.

They are Terriers and are able to work. Tree a bear, hold a Bull, protect the family. They were super smart or they would loose and not be bred, this is why a game bred dog is as smart as it gets.


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## NorCalTim

j-crash said:


> thats very true, but i still would like to be able to take my dogs to a friends house, or have them come to mine. i'm not saying throw the dogs in the back yard and leave them all day, but at least be able to take them over and socialize them. i guess thats why i really liked my parents amstaff while i was growing up (he's 12 and still going strong) he was extremely social and was the last dog you had to worry about snapping at anything.
> 
> and you're right i don't want a "real" pitbull or what most people on here would consider a "real" apbt, i was just wondering why they do.


My friends Am Staff was a firecracker and a B.... to other dogs.
She was a beautiful dog. The temperament was different than APBTs'.


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## NorCalTim

j-crash said:


> i don't have a problem with that just about any dog could be DA my girlfriends 6 pound yorkie is the worst DA dog i have ever seen. right now harry is fine around other dogs and is socialized often. if DA becomes a problem however he will be gone (pts) just like any other dog i would own, because im NOT dealing with it.


Getting mad a an APBT for wanting to fight is like getting mad at a pointer for pointing. They like to show big dogs they are dominate. If your dog is DA, be aware of it. My dogs tend to be OK, especially if the dog is smaller, or if its a cat.

Never buy a Pure bred APBT. It is not what you want, or I hate to say it, respect. They are not for everyone.


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## Firehazard

NorCalTim said:


> Some of the most game bred dogs would just sit on their porch and watch other dogs go by. Some were not that dog aggressive until it was time to "box". They , inside of them, fell as if they can "lick the whole world". It use to be said if you could win someone in a fight, or what not. "I licked him". It is a feeling of immense pride and holding yourself well.
> 
> So in getting to you answer, not all were DA. If you raise them from a young age, even the APBTs' that do not want to play with another dog walking up to it will try and tolerate them (sometimes).
> 
> Someone on this board was just surrounded by wolves, but had their APBT. On the 4th of July, New Yrs, and if someone shots a gun, they tend not to be scared at all. That makes a great family dog. Family Dog Takes Bullet to Save Family - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |
> 
> Game bred dogs were human friendly, or they were killed by the owned (99% of the time). This has created the most human friendly breed walking the Earth.
> 
> They are Terriers and are able to work. Tree a bear, hold a Bull, protect the family. They were super smart or they would loose and not be bred, this is why a game bred dog is as smart as it gets.


Where is the bowing smiley? hahaha so well said,

we're not worthy, we're not worthy.. :goodpost::rofl:


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## NorCalTim

j-crash said:


> i understand that any breed can develop DA i however would not keep a dog that was strongly DA, so much so that i couldn't trust to keep it around other dogs. i also believe that if they are not born with it, but develop the DA like you stated then there are things you can do to prevent the DA or nip it in the bud when you see it starting. i also would not drop the dog off at the shelter if i had a problem that *became* unmanageable, the dog would go to the vet not the shelter. i'm not going to put a problematic dog in someone else's home.
> i understand it sounds bad, and i sound like a terrible person but that is the absolute worst case scenario, and i almost feel you would have to set yourself up for such a failure. i understand that a game bred dog is likely to have DA, but i believe when you get a "watered down" (bully) or show version (amstaff), not specifically game bred then then nature vs. nurture plays a bigger role in the dogs temperament, and god willing there won't be any problems.


You have absolutely no idea what you are getting when you buy an American Bully (and Staffies are great, but I think the APBT has a more solid temperament). Most of the media hype about pit bull attacks come from new age dogs, not dogs like Pete from the Little Rascals who was a match dog.:hug:


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## pitbullmamanatl

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> It has happened to me 4 times already... seven dogs. I don't get rid of my dogs for a trait that is associated with bulldogs, rather I adjust my homes function. When I take an animal into my home I make a commitment to them.


:goodpost::goodpost::clap::clap: Word!


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## Firehazard

begging the question here? This just makes sense to me...

_



But you openly agree you and others may take your dogs to another category if the UKC, AKC,ADBA would open up more, well petition and get your American Pit Bull Mastiff or American Bandog started for all ya'll big dog owners to join. *I think they need to put the APBT in the working class ANYWAY and that would help divide the function of the dogs and therefore the type or the breed*.

Click to expand...

_ _Bandog and Mastiff are the same thing  I posted a link for ya one page back._


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## Firehazard

pitbullmamanatl said:


> :goodpost::goodpost::clap::clap: Word!


2nd that.. :clap:


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## william williamson

NorCalTim said:


> You have absolutely no idea what you are getting when you buy an American Bully (and Staffies are great, but I think the APBT has a more solid temperament). Most of the media hype about pit bull attacks come from new age dogs, not dogs like Pete from the Little Rascals who was a match dog.:hug:


your in for it now,all the huggers are gonna bang on you for that.
I'm agreeable with the statement though.theirs nothing like the old fashioned dog.
evolution is the scourge to the pit bull.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

j-crash said:


> *by the looks of your avatar your dogs seem to get along fine. but, what would you do if every time they saw each other one of them tried to kill the other?
> would you really keep both of the dogs in your house still? or would you get rid of the dog causing the problem?*
> i'm not saying that i would train DA out of a dog. i would not take possession of a dog i knew to be DA. i will however start with a puppy that came from non DA dogs and socialize him constantly and try my darnedest to not allow him to become dog aggressive... just like i (my family) did with all of the dogs i had growing up. we never crated dogs when we left (after they were housebroken adults) and i never came home to a house with a bloody or dead dog, *and there was ALWAYS at least 2, usually 3 dogs at a time in the house (and its not like we had golden-doodles). *
> 
> its not like i want to get rid of my dog... i love my dog and i don't really see any of this happening, its all hypothetical really, because i honestly dont foresee anything like that happening


Yep my dogs get along great NOW but that does not mean that wont change... Nikita the younger one already shows signs of DA with dogs outside our home and we are working on her to redirect that attention in a positive manner... My dogs are all kenneled when no one is home and are never left by themselves together (this includes the Shih Tzu)... Yes I absolutely would keep all of my dogs even if they tried to kill eachother on sight... Why? because that is a commitment I made to them and I would not get rid of either one for doing something that is in their blood.

Your second statement that I highlighted makes me truly believe that you do not need to own this breed... You are not ready and may never be... You have a lot to learn IMHO


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## LionsGate

gamer said:


> I was just gonna say Off leash intact pit bulls brilliant idea dear watson


How much evidence do you want...??

It's a simple matter of time, dedication, and effort. A combination of love, respect, and fear. It can be done, it continues to be done. 8 years of ownership, 5 years of breeding...I've never lost a dog to a fight.


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## Black Rabbit

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Yep my dogs get along great NOW but that does not mean that wont change... Nikita the younger one already shows signs of DA with dogs outside our home and we are working on her to redirect that attention in a positive manner... My dogs are all kenneled when no one is home and are never left by themselves together (this includes the Shih Tzu)... Yes I absolutely would keep all of my dogs even if they tried to kill eachother on sight... Why? because that is a commitment I made to them and I would not get rid of either one for doing something that is in their blood.
> 
> Your second statement that I highlighted makes me truly believe that you do not need to own this breed... You are not ready and may never be... You have a lot to learn IMHO


For real!
They might get along for a good while. Marley and Dosia still get along great and we have had no accidents or yard fights and Dosia is almost 2 now. Marley was 8 when we got Dosia. That doesn't mean Dosia is not DA though. There have been times when out on a walk where he tenses up and makes an his fur stands up at other dogs and I can see his body language change. Just work with your dog on distractions. I would never trust Dosia not to fight another dog so this one is important for me.


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## LionsGate

dixieland said:


> Not putting down your dogs at all Lionsgate.In fact when it comes to bullies,I think you have some of the best looking out there.
> But you can't tell me that those dogs don't have any Mastiff in them!Which would also explain the easiness (sp) of your being able to breed DA out of them.


My dogs aren't as big as you might think. My largest male is Blitz, he's around 112lbs. Most of my males are around 90lbs. Most of my females are around 75lbs, I have 1 that tips the scales at 100 even....

I'm not into the 130, 140, 150lb dogs people want to call APBT's. I make the same argument you all are making with me over my dogs about those that have flat out Mastiffs and call them APBT's.

Most of the DA in my own personal dogs is trained out. Especially Blitz. He's great with my pack, not the best with strange dogs. But if he were in other hands, it wouldn't be that way. His father, Strongheart's Zeus (RIP) was as game as any of you would want, at 118lbs.

Zeus's ped - ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [181221] :: 'PR' ALJARMOUZI'S ZEUS MASTER

Zeus
Unleashed Kennelz-Unleashed Kennels- XXL Pit Bull Breeder


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## LionsGate

gamer said:


> You cant say nothing will happen and be sure until the dog is dead anfd nothing happened. With this mindset I kinda wish you got into poodles, its thinking like yours that gets these dogs into trouble
> 
> Like I said Poodles that way you dont have to get rid of a dog for doing what it is suppose to do


Well this boy right here passed away last October at 9 1/2 years old...

And nothing ever happened...

BTW, he was the dog in all the pictures at the beach...










And he was extremely DA when I got him. A solid year of socialization and training, and I never looked back. The beach pictures say more than I ever could...


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## SARGEnNIKITA

LionsGate said:


> How much evidence do you want...??
> 
> It's a simple matter of time, dedication, and effort. A combination of love, respect, and fear. It can be done, it continues to be done. 8 years of ownership, 5 years of breeding...*I've never lost a dog to a fight*.


I have never lost a dog to a fight either... but that does not mean I have never had a fight happen... Just an observation...

Oh and I do not need evidence that Bullies can get along... However you will have all the evidence you need when JUST THAT ONE TIME your dogs are splashed all over the news...

Oh and just for comparison I have thirty years in the breed... Eight of which is breeding experience and there has never been a time that I have had less than three dogs at a time... At minimum two were always APBT...


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## Black Rabbit

LionsGate said:


> How much evidence do you want...??
> 
> It's a simple matter of time, dedication, and effort. A combination of love, respect, and fear. It can be done, it continues to be done. 8 years of ownership, 5 years of breeding...I've never lost a dog to a fight.
> 
> YouTube - LGK Blitz on the Spring Pole
> 
> YouTube - LGK Blitz on the Spring Pole
> 
> YouTube - Playtime at LGK
> 
> YouTube - LGK Boys Playing Tug o War
> 
> YouTube - LGK Boys Playing Tug o War
> 
> YouTube - Seminole vs Iron Lion Tug of War


OMG Your dogs are beautiful  I love that last pic.

I think the point they were getting at here is that the breeds went in two different directions. The Bullies are being bred for less DA were as the APBT it will never be bred out. 
I'm not doubting your dogs can move cause they look great but most bullies don't have near the dive of our little old school APBT's.


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## LionsGate

Then you have control over your dogs, as you were able to stop the fight....

I have had a small incident here and there - but I am always there to stop it.

Hence my point - the training is KEY.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

So hence that training does not take the DA away rather it is redirected to you for guidance....


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## LionsGate

Thank you KG420 for the compliment.


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## bahamutt99

All the training in the world wont stop a true fight. You may be able to distract the dog before it escalates into something real. But to be frank, I was 7 years "into" the breed before I saw my first really nasty fight. I was glad I got it out of the way when I did, because I'd rather know and prevent than keep my head in the sand that it will never happen to me.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

bahamutt99 said:


> All the training in the world wont stop a true fight. You may be able to distract the dog before it escalates into something real. But to be frank, I was 7 years "into" the breed before I saw my first really nasty fight. I was glad I got it out of the way when I did, because I'd rather know and prevent than keep my head in the sand that it will never happen to me.


:goodpost::goodpost:

Thank you and for some darn reason I couldnt find the words to say exactly that....


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## Black Label Romo

LionsGate said:


> For certain, not every dog. But it has been done, and can be done...
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Didn't really want in on this thread...but I had to say these pics are awesome!!!! Thank you for sharing them...keep up the good work...looks like you got a great program! :clap::clap::clap:


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## Indigo Bully Connection

bahamutt99 said:


> All the training in the world wont stop a true fight. You may be able to distract the dog before it escalates into something real. But to be frank, I was 7 years "into" the breed before I saw my first really nasty fight. I was glad I got it out of the way when I did, because I'd rather know and prevent than keep my head in the sand that it will never happen to me.


Darn tootin'!


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## gamer

LionsGate said:


> How much evidence do you want...??
> 
> It's a simple matter of time, dedication, and effort. A combination of love, respect, and fear. It can be done, it continues to be done. 8 years of ownership, 5 years of breeding...I've never lost a dog to a fight.
> 
> YouTube - LGK Blitz on the Spring Pole
> 
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> 
> YouTube - Playtime at LGK
> 
> YouTube - LGK Boys Playing Tug o War
> 
> YouTube - LGK Boys Playing Tug o War
> 
> YouTube - Seminole vs Iron Lion Tug of War


Good god I am sorry but I can use you as a poster child for what not to do with pit bulls, Really letting those dogs play like that is just stupid. I would rather see the spring pole video without music because most of these big puts sound like they are dying to breath when someone posts a video. Also you need to put the rope down lower dont let your dogs hang off the ground like that unless you ae trying to mimic a honeybunch accident.



LionsGate said:


> Then you have control over your dogs, as you were able to stop the fight....
> 
> I have had a small incident here and there - but I am always there to stop it.
> 
> Hence my point - the training is KEY.


Well you have curs so you really should not give people the impression that you can train a dog to stop fighting because if they dont have a cur they are going to be in trouble. I had one male that lived to fight he would do anything he could to get loose and fight there was no sweet talking him into letting go even when he was getting his butt handed to him he had to be physically removed tail wagging the whole time. You would not have guessed it if you saw me walking him down the street because he didnt even look at another dog unless it was an apbt


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## Indigo Bully Connection

gamer said:


> Good god I am sorry but I can use you as a poster child for what not to do with pit bulls, Really letting those dogs play like that is just stupid. I would rather see the spring pole video without music because most of these big puts sound like they are dying to breath when someone posts a video. Also you need to put the rope down lower dont let your dogs hang off the ground like that unless you ae trying to mimic a honeybunch accident.
> 
> Well you have curs so you really should not give people the impression that you can train a dog to stop fighting because if they dont have a cur they are going to be in trouble. I had one male that lived to fight he would do anything he could to get loose and fight there was no sweet talking him into letting go even when he was getting his butt handed to him he had to be physically removed tail wagging the whole time. You would not have guessed it if you saw me walking him down the street because he didnt even look at another dog unless it was an apbt


I was wondering how to word this nicely lol. Lionsgate I'm not getting on your rear, i do like your dogs for what they are, but comparing them to another breed, heck even my bullies is like comparing apples to oranges to pineapples.


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## aimee235

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> I was wondering how to word this nicely lol. Lionsgate I'm not getting on your rear, i do like your dogs for what they are, but comparing them to another breed, heck even my bullies is like comparing apples to oranges to pineapples.


:goodpost:


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## Firehazard

You have some very good looking and nicely balanced bandogs, I think you do have outstanding dogs but they arent APBTs they are registered APBTs not proven APBTs nor are they from proven lines.. Thats that.. BUT THEY ARE OUTSTANDING WORKING DOGS.. look here this picture is titled Mastiff Menagerie its from way back.







Also look at the link of Whopper dogs and tell me theres much difference  GREAT WORKERS Welcome To Mealers Pitbull Farm better than most european bandogs(mastiffs) but they are what they are and its not APBT. 1000 dollar bandogs http://mealerspitbullfarm.com/forsale.html Some look swinford some look Am Bulldoggish but they are all GREAT LOOKING WORKERS. What you have done here I have seen done before turnin the bully xl and xxl into a working line, but they are huge bandogs and your not gonna get rid of that with out washing it out completely with game dogs and your finest gyp. I understand you have done great work with what you have and can see if I was you I would love my dogs too, I would also be admitting I am breeding bandogs just as the whopper crowd kinds sticks to its own because they are ostracized from the game stock of the ADBA, because they are bandogs "working mastiffs" even if they were gladiator dogs you maybe allowed to enter it into a Tosa match in Japan if it was anything but an APBT they will not allow any APBT to match Tosas any longer. Tosa are HA too, though just as most all bandogs. This is why I snubbed the whopper dogmen after I bred him into one of their dogs as a greenhorn in Oklahoma when I had Hooch ripped out pulling my Chevy 1500 showing the whopper dogs off, only problem is he wouldn't pull for anything not anything but a dog at the other end  They hated me and loved me all for the same reasons but they couldn't deny what I was taught, _it was said to be like this from the former owner of the ADBA, * either your breeding game dogs or your not..APBTs are game dogs~ *_If you allow your ethics to be breeding whopper dogs then game dogmen and their ethics will not trust your or yours... That makes sense to me considering the APBT got started (dead horse now fertilizer) the dog had to have 2 wins to be registered, NOW there are registered APBTs but you have to have 2 wins to be PROVEN APBT  I love your dogs, I have a good friend with a whopper/Adams line going of some hulks, but he knows hes got bandogs and only the whopper and xl xxl crowd are interested.. _None the less SUPERB anchor dogs on a big boar, better than Am bulldogs I've seen._. But as history and the old pic depict, the original working mastiff or bandog was pited against every beast but a pit bulldog unless because they don't have the DA(which doesnt have to be on all the time but when its on buddy its on) and overpowered PREY drive combined of the pit bulldog today APBT. _I'm not coming back to this post because the grass is growing where the horse once was_, *still great dogs*, not APBTs and all bandogs should band together all the dogs are the same working xxl bullies, giant, whopper, mammoth, all of em~ Big dogs lots of drive good catch dogs cattle stock drivers not APBTs.



LionsGate said:


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## Firehazard

gamer said:


> Well you have curs so you really should not give people the impression that you can train a dog to stop fighting because if they dont have a cur they are going to be in trouble. I had one male that lived to fight he would do anything he could to get loose and fight there was no sweet talking him into letting go even when he was getting his butt handed to him he had to be physically removed tail wagging the whole time. *You would not have guessed it if you saw me walking him down the street because he didnt even look at another dog unless it was an apbt*


:clap: some of my dogs including hooch were the same way until we went country, now its their job  Many APBTs only show APBTs DA and are sweet with all other breeds, well almost theres always alpha.


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## j-crash

gamer said:


> Good god I am sorry but I can use you as a poster child for what not to do with pit bulls, Really letting those dogs play like that is just stupid. I would rather see the spring pole video without music because most of these big puts sound like they are dying to breath when someone posts a video. Also you need to put the rope down lower dont let your dogs hang off the ground like that unless you ae trying to mimic a honeybunch accident.
> 
> Well you have curs so you really should not give people the impression that you can train a dog to stop fighting because if they dont have a cur they are going to be in trouble. I had one male that lived to fight he would do anything he could to get loose and fight there was no sweet talking him into letting go even when he was getting his butt handed to him he had to be physically removed tail wagging the whole time. You would not have guessed it if you saw me walking him down the street because he didnt even look at another dog unless it was an apbt


someone forgot to tell lions gate that you know everything... i'll send him a pm


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## 9361

j-crash said:


> thats very true, but i still would like to be able to take my dogs to a friends house, or have them come to mine. i'm not saying throw the dogs in the back yard and leave them all day, but at least be able to take them over and socialize them. i guess thats why i really liked my parents amstaff while i was growing up (he's 12 and still going strong) he was extremely social and was the last dog you had to worry about snapping at anything.
> 
> and you're right i don't want a "real" pitbull or what most people on here would consider a "real" apbt, i was just wondering why they do.





j-crash said:


> zeus (my parents amstaff) while having very little to no DA still had/has plenty of drive and energy many a rodent or wandering feral cat met their demise in my parents back yard (regardless of the 6ft. privacy fence) and it is not a small area their is 1 acre fenced in in the back. as for being energetic, at 12 years old i can still get him to play until i take the ball or tug rope (gotta watch the old mans teeth ) away. * heck he even caught a rabbit last week. great dog high prey drive,* tons of energy no propble ever with DA but he is a "show" bread dog off of ch. bearfoot's souix city scout.


Hmm..... something very contradictory in these two posts.... and they were on the exact same page....


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## j-crash

NorCalTim said:


> Getting mad a an APBT for wanting to fight is like getting mad at a pointer for pointing. They like to show big dogs they are dominate. If your dog is DA, be aware of it. My dogs tend to be OK, especially if the dog is smaller, or if its a cat.
> 
> *Never buy a Pure bred APBT. It is not what you want*, or I hate to say it, respect. They are not for everyone.


You are 100% correct!!


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## gamer

Shes Got Heart said:


> Hmm..... something very contradictory in these two posts.... and they were on the exact same page....


Its just one of those whishy washy people where its not ok to let two dogs the same size fight each other but its ok to let a dog tear apart and kill a animal that can not defend themselves.


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## gamer

j-crash said:


> someone forgot to tell lions gate that you know everything... i'll send him a pm


lol ok dude, you can try to insult me but you know what I know these dogs and have been around them a long time, I consider myself a student of the breed I love to learn about all the awesome dogs that have put their hard work into the breed we own today.


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## j-crash

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> Yep my dogs get along great NOW but that does not mean that wont change... Nikita the younger one already shows signs of DA with dogs outside our home and we are working on her to redirect that attention in a positive manner... My dogs are all kenneled when no one is home and are never left by themselves together (this includes the Shih Tzu)... Yes I absolutely would keep all of my dogs even if they tried to kill eachother on sight... Why? because that is a commitment I made to them and I would not get rid of either one for doing something that is in their blood.
> 
> *Your second statement that I highlighted makes me truly believe that you do not need to own this breed... You are not ready and may never be... You have a lot to learn IMHO*


i am not sure what you mean by this, i was simply stating that while i was growing up my parents kept dogs that media would label as "dangerous dogs" we never had any problems the dogs were well socialized and well trained and i can guarantee that if there was fighting those dogs would not have been kept around. i really don't understand why anyone would keep a dog like this around, but again... to each their own. if everybody doesn't get along i would remove the problem. it is for those reasons that i chose and "american bully" type dog instead of a true apbt i have not need for that type of dog. also i could never imagine crating the dog every time i left the house. i know hes not gonna hit a robber over the head and call 911 but i would hope a dog (of any kind) would be a deterrent for an intruder i cant really see any dog doing that while it is crated.


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## j-crash

Shes Got Heart said:


> Hmm..... something very contradictory in these two posts.... and they were on the exact same page....


i should not have said "anything" i meant another dog, it was poor word choice.


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## performanceknls

bahamutt99 said:


> All the training in the world wont stop a true fight. You may be able to distract the dog before it escalates into something real. But to be frank, I was 7 years "into" the breed before I saw my first really nasty fight. I was glad I got it out of the way when I did, because I'd rather know and prevent than keep my head in the sand that it will never happen to me.


:goodpost: You have to remember we are talking about dogs that are not APBT's but still not a good idea. I hate it when I see ppl who think like this untill they get a dead dog, the the light turns on that might not have been a good idea.



gamer said:


> Good god I am sorry but I can use you as a poster child for what not to do with pit bulls, Really letting those dogs play like that is just stupid. I would rather see the spring pole video without music because most of these big puts sound like they are dying to breath when someone posts a video. Also you need to put the rope down lower dont let your dogs hang off the ground like that unless you ae trying to mimic a honeybunch accident.
> 
> Well you have curs so you really should not give people the impression that you can train a dog to stop fighting because if they dont have a cur they are going to be in trouble. I had one male that lived to fight he would do anything he could to get loose and fight there was no sweet talking him into letting go even when he was getting his butt handed to him he had to be physically removed tail wagging the whole time. You would not have guessed it if you saw me walking him down the street because he didnt even look at another dog unless it was an apbt


Very true these are not pit bulls these are mixed breed dogs who have other traits all though i still would not recommend having that many intact males lose together.

Again everything is fine till you end up with a dead dog. i learned through personal experience and sounded a lot like LGK years ago before I knew any better.


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## william williamson

with DA but he is a "show" bread dog off of ch. bearfoot's souix city scout.

could someone tell me what the dogs are bread with?flour? corn meal?maybe some bisquick?

and don't get off on my reference.
he chose to poke some fun at me for some of my inadequacies.
just diggin back.
or is that not acceptable?at least for some?


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## performanceknls

mmmm I like butter with my bread! lol


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## 9361

I would like to see a show of hand of people who have owned or have met or seen a DA american bully...


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## gamer

Shes Got Heart said:


> I would like to see a show of hand of people who have owned or have met or seen a DA american bully...


What classifies an AM Bully you will get more accurate results I think if you ask for a show of hands who have seen a DA pit mix


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## performanceknls

I deal with them every day in my training classes and the sad thing is many are HA too. bad breeding


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## j-crash

gamer said:


> lol ok dude, you can try to insult me but you know what I know these dogs and have been around them a long time, I consider myself a student of the breed I love to learn about all the awesome dogs that have put their hard work into the breed we own today.


i didn't mean to be insulting, i probably shouldn't have posted something. its just frustrating when someone tells you "you're doing it wrong" when he hasn't had any problems yet. i get that apbt are DA, and i understand that it was bred into them. i want nothing to do with owning a "true" apbt i respect the dog for what it is, but i have no use for one and would not want the responsibility that goes along with owning one. that is why i chose a bully type dog i love the energy they have i love the companionship and i honestly love the way they look . i wouldn't leave a group of apbt lying around off leash like he does, but if there is one thing that i have definitely learned since i joined this site, is that he doesn't own apbt's.


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## 9361

gamer said:


> What classifies an AM Bully you will get more accurate results I think if you ask for a show of hands who have seen a DA pit mix


:goodpost:


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## 9361

j-crash said:


> i didn't mean to be insulting, i probably shouldn't have posted something. its just frustrating when someone tells you "you're doing it wrong" when he hasn't had any problems yet. i get that apbt are DA, and i understand that it was bred into them. i want nothing to do with owning a "true" apbt i respect the dog for what it is, but i have no use for one and would not want the responsibility that goes along with owning one. that is why i chose a bully type dog i love the energy they have i love the companionship and i honestly love the way they look . i wouldn't leave a group of apbt lying around off leash like he does, but if there is one thing that i have definitely learned since i joined this site, is that he doesn't own apbt's.


How old is your dog? And the keyword is "yet" My dog didn't "turn on" til she was around 2 years of age. The funny thing is she has literally hid behind me and my boyfriend when a kitten hissed at her.... but also has jumped on pit bull's that are larger than she is. Luckily she is well versed in her commands and stopped before the fight progressed. But she is no longer allowed to play with other dogs because I never know when it's going to get too heated.

The vids lionsgate posted of multiple dogs on a springpole would be an ultimate no no for my dog Helena. The first time she went after another dog was over a bone after several warnings to the other dog, it then progressed to the dog jumping on her when we were playing tug and the other dog wanted to join in.... Stupid me did not stop then and continued to let her play with another dog pal of hers on a spring pole once.. well they got into it as well. And I finally called it quits on doggy friends whenever I caught her jump on another female pit bull who was bigger than her who she had also known. There was no toys or anything around to cause a fight. She just suddenly went stiff and rigid starring the female down and just jumped on her. After that I wised up and will not let her play loose with other dogs ever again. But kittens.... wow those are extremely scary! LOL


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## gamer

j-crash said:


> i didn't mean to be insulting, i probably shouldn't have posted something. its just frustrating when someone tells you "you're doing it wrong" when he hasn't had any problems yet. i get that apbt are DA, and i understand that it was bred into them. i want nothing to do with owning a "true" apbt i respect the dog for what it is, but i have no use for one and would not want the responsibility that goes along with owning one. that is why i chose a bully type dog i love the energy they have i love the companionship and i honestly love the way they look . i wouldn't leave a group of apbt lying around off leash like he does, but if there is one thing that i have definitely learned since i joined this site, is that he doesn't own apbt's.


No worries its just there is so much being done to an awesome breed it really irks me, you have to understand that everything a pit mix dog does it lands in the faces of the pit bulls and their owners. This is why people shouldn't play with genetics


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## performanceknls

j-crash said:


> "you're doing it wrong" when he hasn't had any problems yet. .


"yet" being the key word to this statement, it will happen it is just a matter of when.


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## j-crash

william williamson said:


> with DA but he is a "show" bread dog off of ch. bearfoot's souix city scout.
> 
> could someone tell me what the dogs are bread with?flour? corn meal?maybe some bisquick?
> 
> and don't get off on my reference.
> he chose to poke some fun at me for some of my inadequacies.
> just diggin back.
> or is that not acceptable?at least for some?


you got me spelling error  
i can take it just as well as i dish it out


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## j-crash

Shes Got Heart said:


> How old is your dog?


my personal dog is just a pup 15/16 weeks... i can't remember right now.


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## william williamson

they told me when I was a kid,our neighbor was an avid **** hunter,deer and the such.we were raised in rural dade co.in the everglades is where I grew up.
the first thing I learned,if it had teeth or jaws,it would bite.
and if it had a brain it had it's own unpredictable temperament.
we trapped gators and live caught them,hogs,snakes,venomous and non.critter sales for us as kids was big income.
I don't care what type of animal,or reptile,everyone was different at some point.
when I lived in costa rica I saw several monkey troops.each one had such A diversity of temperament and attitude.
having had pits for 33 years,they have shown me the least amount of inconsistant temperament.
well managed pits,I would NEVER call A pit A pet,pack member,family member,unit comrade,etc. yeah,pet no.
you have to always be diligent with everything you do with them.
this is the thing I hate the most.people get them.DO NOT BELIEVE what others preach through experience and then we get to hear that proverbially sickening statement.
"but I never thought my dog would do that".
yet when you take the time to overthrow your gut feeling about them,crate and seperate,always watch them,never let them beyond a controlled environment,no matter what kind of control you think you have.I never take my dog out without A leash.we get to the beach or the waterway,and I can't see A dog,she can get loose.I see A dog,it's on the leash.
2 dogs,running at each other cover alot of ground quicker than you can think.
as for her and people.shaw,she's heck on the PBJ on your lip maybe with that big 'ol sloppy tongue.
pits,managed and respected for what they are or could potentially be are bar none the best dog I've had.
I also have an ACD.great boy,I'll get another one. but the pit.they're gonna bury one in my hole,cause I ain't leavin this earth without one!!!


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## Black Rabbit

performanceknls said:


> I deal with them every day in my training classes and the sad thing is many are HA too. bad breeding


I've seen this too and it's sad, these HA bullies are being called pits are f ing up the dog bite stats too. I think the reason is there are many people mixing in big breeds that are meant for protection like Persas and AM bulldogs that create an unstable temperament, and HA.


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## william williamson

j-crash said:


> you got me spelling error
> i can take it just as well as i dish it out


kewl,I'm widja on dat,:hammer::hammer:


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## j-crash

gamer said:


> No worries its just there is so much being done to an awesome breed it really irks me, you have to understand that everything a pit mix dog does it lands in the faces of the pit bulls and their owners. This is why people shouldn't play with genetics


the sad thing is that these "pit mixes" usually look nothing like a apbt, and definitely not a large american bully type dog. at least not the ones that i have seen.


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## j-crash

william williamson said:


> kewl,I'm widja on dat,:hammer::hammer:


my problem is that i honestly have a hard time reading typed slang, if you were talking to me face to face would have no problem understanding what you are saying, but when it is typed my brain just doesn't process it


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## performanceknls

this thread has gone from bad to worse.....


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## Indigo Bully Connection

Shes Got Heart said:


> I would like to see a show of hand of people who have owned or have met or seen a DA american bully...


Here is my internet hand show...


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