# crossbred, why people love it and others hate it?



## verdugo (Dec 30, 2013)

I removed my own post.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

verdugo said:


> It's has been interesting to follow different posts on how pure breed owners have shown sarcasm and even aggression towards other dog owners who just simply made the choice to own a so called mutts.  In my opinion a piece of paper shouldn't determine the level of happiness of owning any dog, Regardless of where it comes pure breed or half breed. I'm a proud rescue dog owner and the fact that I took Junior home with me makes it even more beautiful and special. As to me he's not a pure breed he's not a half breed or a mutt, to me Junior is unique.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No, here the rule is that no one is allowed to say that something looks like a purebred from the pictures we see. The rule is that we have to SEE the pedigree on the dog and have it ordained by certain people as "true", because most pedigrees are "hung" ya know.

Some of us like to look at a picture and say that it "looks like" (breed), but that's not allowed here and that is the controversy.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

verdugo...you were direct and honest in your post, and I can respect that. I would most likely fall into the category of "pure breed" owners you described, so I'll give you my honesty in return. Please follow my words, so as not to misunderstand.

You are a happy and positive pet owner, and enjoy the companionship. No problem with that at all, from my end. I myself do not hate dogs, unless they are human aggressive without a cause. The main thing I have a problem with is the new owners who claim their dog is something it is not. I have been in love with the American (pit) Bull Terrier since I was a child. While I liked all dogs, those were my favorites. Always will be. IMO they have things about them no other dog ever will. 

I'm sure you're aware of the bad reputation of the breed I own? Well guess what? The bad rep came from, and still does, mutts, who have the look, but fail in all the true characteristics of the ApBT. Sure the true ApBT's are dog aggressive by nature, and will not hesitate to attack on sight in most cases....but attacking humans? This breed suffers most from newbies who never learn the truth of the breed, and have these mutts. If they are pack dogs, it is most likely they are not true ApBT's. Lots of attacks happen in packs. 

Now, as for papers, I hate when people say it is just a piece of paper. What it truly is is a family lineage. I can trace my own dogs back to the late 1800's. I am proud of that, and many others are too. Also, when people use the words like yours, it is like saying none of the history matters. It is as if you are saying it is okay for all pure breeds of dogs to become extinct...for every dog to be a mutt. But guess what? Mutts are the result, EVERY time, of irresponsible breeders and peddlers, back yard breeders! To say you love mutts is to condone that. To me, people paying good money for a good dog shows me they value the dog and won't mistreat what they spent their money on. And the very people and breeders you should hate are the ones who produce the mutts that end up in shelters. Nobody, in their right mind, will give a dog they paid over $1000 for to a rescue. 

While your heart may be good, people like you error in your reasoning, IMO. I hate the people that produce mutts, and often, am furious with those who condone it, and they are the rescuers, trying to save poor quality dogs that can never represent a true breed..but it is not the dogs fault, and it doesn't mean they are bad dogs. 

So it is a paradox I have given you. I do understand what you are saying, about Junior being Junior. Not a mutt. But understand, I am proud to own dogs from a lineage of Champions! And I would never trade them for the back yard mutts...


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## catchrcall (Jul 8, 2012)

For me, its all about performance. I don't care about papers, I care about hogs on my tailgate and meat on my table. Most of my yard is crossbred, and not by accident. Some of those crossbreds have pedigrees that can be traced back for a little while, certainly not to the extent mentioned above, but carefully picked dogs nonetheless and a couple decades of somebody else's work that I get to share. The last registered dog I owned was a cull. The crossbred stuff born here a couple summers ago was finding their own hogs last year. Papers don't catch me hogs. Good dogs do. If they happen to have papers then fine. Some of the best pedigrees out there aren't in a registry. They're in some old man's dresser drawer. Different than pets I know, but worth saying.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Dreamer said:


> No, here the rule is that no one is allowed to say that something looks like a purebred from the pictures we see. The rule is that we have to SEE the pedigree on the dog and have it ordained by certain people as "true", because most pedigrees are "hung" ya know.
> 
> Some of us like to look at a picture and say that it "looks like" (breed), but that's not allowed here and that is the controversy.


Not true... amd besides that I have mutts and papered dogs that arent apbt or bullies and my dogs get more love than most folks dogs do from apbt, mutt, bully, amd none dog owners... I give love to good looking dogs with responsible owners regardless of papers or breed.... quit being a Debbie downer or push on...

Also on a side note; human aggression CAN and IS passed down genetically as with dog aggression. If you have a mastiff influence you can get both traits(trust me I know). Now it isn't always passed down genetically and can be formed in any dog... also more than 1 purebred [ ] dog that has been human agressive and even some dogs have thrown thr trait. To deny that is boldface lieing...


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## verdugo (Dec 30, 2013)

Goemon said:


> verdugo...you were direct and honest in your post, and I can respect that. I would most likely fall into the category of "pure breed" owners you described, so I'll give you my honesty in return. Please follow my words, so as not to misunderstand.
> 
> You are a happy and positive pet owner, and enjoy the companionship. No problem with that at all, from my end. I myself do not hate dogs, unless they are human aggressive without a cause. The main thing I have a problem with is the new owners who claim their dog is something it is not. I have been in love with the American (pit) Bull Terrier since I was a child. While I liked all dogs, those were my favorites. Always will be. IMO they have things about them no other dog ever will.
> 
> ...


Goemon,

I Thank you for same honest answer and I am with you where certain individuals do miss represent the ApBT Which has descended on the ban of the breed due to legislative actions. 
But it's also important to understand that is also to people like me and many others who rescue this mutts to love them and care for them so that the cycle of terror ends. Such as ring fights, aggressive behavior etc.

At the end they will also become family dogs. That goes with "is not the dogs it's the owners". And I do believe that pure breeds are also left at shelters. Sad but true were both mutts and pure breeds add to the over population of dogs worldwide I guess we all know where they end up.

And trust me I do respect owners who value a good quality dog as you have told me yes they invest good $ to be in touch with history and lineage on the other hand I decide to value life.

And our ideas might be interpreted in different ways but no one or nothing should be left out or behind because they were the product of irresponsible people.

And No I Do Not Want The Original Breed to become extinct. I highly doubt that will ever happen. But yes you really give me something to think about and maybe one day we could share experiences good and bad ones about our dogs now part of our families.

I have found great people who have helped me when I was in distress with Jr. And now I'm glad to come across individuals like yourself who i can add their knowledge to my advantage and experience. :beer:

I also would like to add that Jr is a parvo survivor and guess what he is a donor his immune system can help other puppies survive that deadly decease. It was a remarkable experience and very expensive one too, maybe we could talk about it in another time.

See you around.

Thanks!.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Indie (Sep 29, 2010)

There is NOTHING wrong with owning, loving, or competing with a mutt. It's the BREEDING of them most of us despise.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I own a mutt who I got from a byb. I believed them when they said it was an accidental breeding. It was only after I got him home that I found out that he was from the second "accidental litter" there has since then been another "accidental litter". 

I have decided never again will I get a dog that has not come from purposeful breeding, by people who love the breed, and are working toward improving it and upholding the standard passed down by the forebears of the breed. This applied for if I decide to get a whippet or a staffie, or a bulldog. 

I am saddened to hear people say don't shop adopt. I feel that that black and white mentality will end all pure bred dogs. I will donate to shelters. But I do believe that there are a multitude of people ready and waiting to refill the space you have created by adopting a dog. Part of me incline to support the incentive forass sterilization of dogs without pedigrees.

we are what we do repeatedly. excellence is then not an act, but a habit. - Aristotle


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Every medium sized black dog with a medium coat length is not a "lab mix." Well, the same is VERY true for the bully breed dogs (that the media calls a pitbull). You need to understand that bully breeds are not like others. You can pretty much tell if a dachshund is purebred. There are not really any other breeds like them! They are unique. There are over 20 breeds that make up the bully breed dogs, and all have similar features. Yet they are each a separate breed. 
Real deal true American Pit Bull Terriers are NOT easy to come by. I know you might find that hard to believe but it is the truth. The breeders of these dogs know them well and like keep their dogs in small circles. 
There are American Staffordshires, American Bullies, English Staffordshire Bull Terriers, English Bull Terriers, American Bulldog, AND all the mastiff breeds. These human aggressive dogs that are attacking people are most likely crossed with a mastiff breed somewhere down the line, which can makes them dangerous dogs. Mastiffs are guardians and have no problem protecting and attacking people. Well, mix that with another bully breed and you have the genetics for a human agressive dog with the stubbornness of the Terrier. Not good. 
Many of these so called "pitbulls" are decendants of AmStaffs who have been crossed to create these bigger more muscular dogs years and years before you got your hands on the pup. Hope that makes sense. 

Papers do not make a dog a great dog. But papers are key to understanding the history of the breeding of your dog, whether there was human aggression, etc. and understanding the genetics and temperament of the dog. With a random dog with no paperwork, you do not know the history of the great great great grand parents and what made your dog what it is today. One of the great great great great grand parents could have been human aggressive and then it could pop up again in your dog. 
True American Pit Bull Terriers we're not intended to be human aggressive dogs and they were also not intended to get along with other dogs. When people started breeding away from the purpose of the original dog the problems arose unfortunately. 

What if you had purebred hunting Labradors and competed in field trials, hunted, etc. with them and bred them to keep them as true to form as possible. What if I come along and I adopted a dog from a shelter or got it from someone on Craigslist and it is a black dog with medium fur and the rescue organization or seller called it a lab or lab mix. Is this right? No! What if in reality this dog was a pointer/spaniel/shepherd mix...but because it looks the part of a lab it is called a lab. This is wrong. 

All that being said there ARE great dogs out there who are bully breed mixes who are wonderful pets! I have fostered many of them. Being a dog of unknown origin or heritage (mutt) is not necessary a bad thing as many are great dogs-- but call it what it is! It's in everyone to want to label their dog as some breed, but if you have a bully breed dog with an unknown family origin/history it is not right to call your dog a breed that it is not. 

I hope this helps you understand!


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

::::COACH:::: said:


> It's in everyone to want to label their dog as some breed, but if you have a bully breed dog with an unknown family origin/history it is not right to call your dog a breed that it is not.


In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with it. It's a GIVEN that a rescue dog or shelter dog has an unknown history and origin. Everyone KNOWS that. It doesn't have to to LOOK like a BREED! As you say, it's just normal to discuss a dog in terms of what it looks like; who cares what it's background and pedigree and accomplishments are. It doesn't have to have ANY of those to look like a particular breed!

Edited to add: You know, going by what you say, I'd HAVE to look at a picture of a Bernese Mountain Dog or a game-bred looking APBT and say it's a mutt, because I didn't know the pedigree or if they were champion mountain dogs or match dogs. I can't DO that. Makes ME look pretty stupid, wouldn't it?


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with it. It's a GIVEN that a rescue dog or shelter dog has an unknown history and origin. Everyone KNOWS that. It doesn't have to to LOOK like a BREED! As you say, it's just normal to discuss a dog in terms of what it looks like; who cares what it's background and pedigree and accomplishments are. It doesn't have to have ANY of those to look like a particular breed!


So all black guys are African Americans???

Looks don't designate a breed.
and when speaking specifically about a APBT, the accomplishments mean EVERYTHING! while the pedigree has less to do with it, but its important also..

Matter of fact, some of my deep game bred APBT dogs don't even look like the publics view of what a "pitbull" is, though its more so than any other they think is....


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with it. It's a GIVEN that a rescue dog or shelter dog has an unknown history and origin. Everyone KNOWS that. It doesn't have to to LOOK like a BREED! As you say, it's just normal to discuss a dog in terms of what it looks like; who cares what it's background and pedigree and accomplishments are. It doesn't have to have ANY of those to look like a particular breed!
> 
> Edited to add: You know, going by what you say, I'd HAVE to look at a picture of a Bernese Mountain Dog or a game-bred looking APBT and say it's a mutt, because I didn't know the pedigree or if they were champion mountain dogs or match dogs. I can't DO that. Makes ME look pretty stupid, wouldn't it?


Secondly, IT DOES MATTER what folks with unknown bully breed dogs, pitbulls or whatever you want to call them, what they call them.. It matters because those of us with pedigree dogs that get lumped in with "bulldog breeds" we all have dogs that wouldn't maul people, or any of the stupidity that is shown in the news and when everyone says theyre all just Pitbulls, BSL steps in and takes them all.. Even the properly bred ones with the traits we all love..
Dreamer... It absolutely matters


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> Matter of fact, some of my deep game bred APBT dogs don't even look like the publics view of what a "pitbull" is, though its more so than any other they think is....


The working version of most breeds don't look like what the public thinks!


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

But dreamer, there isn't a difference in the working or non working dogs...
They are all the same just depends on what the owner wants to do with the dog. 
The coined term APBT cannot be used to cover every daggon dog that has some "pitbull" blood in it, however predominant....
The point is because of the years of words like yours from folks, and the bad breeding practices to include crossing into anything other than a APBT (bully, bulldog, AmStaff..etc, or even other breeds of dogs) while still calling your dog a APBT is what makes the problem.. Side by side there are physical characteristics that differ, and some that are the same, through looks you could sometimes never tell it had a dalmation or something thrown in there, which right then and there makes it no longer a APBT, but now ,, a mix breed dog, period.


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## APBTN00b (Jul 8, 2013)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Every medium sized black dog with a medium coat length is not a "lab mix." Well, the same is VERY true for the bully breed dogs (that the media calls a pitbull). You need to understand that bully breeds are not like others. You can pretty much tell if a dachshund is purebred. There are not really any other breeds like them! They are unique. There are over 20 breeds that make up the bully breed dogs, and all have similar features. Yet they are each a separate breed.
> Real deal true American Pit Bull Terriers are NOT easy to come by. I know you might find that hard to believe but it is the truth. The breeders of these dogs know them well and like keep their dogs in small circles.
> There are American Staffordshires, American Bullies, English Staffordshire Bull Terriers, English Bull Terriers, American Bulldog, AND all the mastiff breeds. These human aggressive dogs that are attacking people are most likely crossed with a mastiff breed somewhere down the line, which can makes them dangerous dogs. Mastiffs are guardians and have no problem protecting and attacking people. Well, mix that with another bully breed and you have the genetics for a human agressive dog with the stubbornness of the Terrier. Not good.
> Many of these so called "pitbulls" are decendants of AmStaffs who have been crossed to create these bigger more muscular dogs years and years before you got your hands on the pup. Hope that makes sense.
> ...


^^^^ :goodpost:

It took me years to find a good breeder for my APBT. But I own many mutts. I have a Dachshund mutt, American Bulldog mix/mutt (I know the parents but the parents are of unknown linage), and a GSD (Who doesn't have papers so it makes him a mutt).

Nothing wrong with it. Each dog is a wonderful addition to my family. But they are also pet dogs to me. They are there to be spoiled and loved on with no intentions of doing anything with. My APBT on the other hand, who is papered, is a working dog. And yes, I like the fact I can pull out his papers and research the dogs in his ped and breeder and know who they are/were.

But there is nothing wrong with a mutt. I love them all. If it has four legs, a wet nose and a long sloppy tongue for kisses, a dog, I love it.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> Side by side there are physical characteristics that differ, and some that are the same, through looks you could sometimes never tell it had a dalmation or something thrown in there, which right then and there makes it no longer a APBT, but now ,, a mix breed dog, period.


So, what do I get to say IS an American Pit Bull Terrier?

IS the definition any dog that is proven game, no matter WHAT it looks like? (there is something to be said for this, actually; but I will ask your opinion...)

Or, are you saying there is no such thing as a BREED as defined today?


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

APBTN00b said:


> But there is nothing wrong with a mutt.


Absolutely not. But that's not the issue. It's me being able to look at a picture of a dog (ANY dog/breed) and saying it appears to be of a certain breed.

Apparently, they don't like you doing that on this board.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

APBT is a bloodline in essence.

You can call a Pitbull that has a defined geneology consistent and entirely comprised of dogs that were bred for the pit (American (pit) Bull-Terrier, over the hundreds of years that they were bred for that one reason alone.

Game doesn't make an APBT, sometimes an APBT is game, I know bandogs and otherwise that are game as they come, but they aren't an APBT, because the blood was mixed somewhere with something else..
Only with the last 30 years the recent upsurge in shows and new creations has the APBT become an AmStaff, a bully, or whatever. And those with those dogs should call them by what they are. Because they are not a "pit""bull""terrier"

getting through yet>>??


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> \ It's me being able to look at a picture of a dog (ANY dog/breed) and saying it appears to be of a certain breed.
> 
> Apparently, they don't like you doing that on this board.


 So my absolute APBT, no questions, no problems, that DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A PITBULL, you would be saying that because of looks I don't have an APBT. or vise versa..

her dog could have bulldog and Labrador and fox terrier In the blood and will look just like that. In no way shape form or fashion can you or anyone "look" at a dog and say for certain it has any of the old APBT bloodline anywhere in, near, or around their blood....


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> But dreamer, there isn't a difference in the working or non working dogs...


You don't think there is a difference in the show-bred English Setters and the field dogs? Really?

it's the same for APBTs. But at least for now, they both have the same breed name; and many people can look at both and have a pretty good idea of what is the conformation show version and what is the field or working version; not all the time, but generally-speaking.

And yes, I know that there is the thought out there that the show dogs should be NOT be called the breed name -- that the working version is the original and should get the name..and there is something to be said for that thought. I'm just going for what IS the paradigm at present.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

The term pit bull is a generic term used to describe dogs with similar physical characteristics. Usually a "pit bull" is considered one of several breeds including the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Bull Terrier or any mix thereof. In some parts of the world, the American Bulldog and Dogo Argentino are also classified as a "Pit Bull-type" dog, despite major genetic differences. Any dog that is mixed with a "bully breed" may also be called a "pit bull" including those that are descended from the English Bulldog, French Bulldog, Boston Terrier and Cane Corso.[2] The pit bull is not a distinct breed which may make it difficult for experts to identify,[3][4][5] and while mixed breed dogs are often labelled a "pit bull" if they have certain physical characteristics such as a square shaped head or bulky body type,[2] visual identification of mixed breed dogs is not recommended by the scholarly community.[3]

Several jurisdictions have enacted breed-specific legislation against pit bulls, ranging from outright bans on the possession of pit bull-type dogs, to restrictions and conditions on pit bull ownership. Research indicates that breed specific legislation is ineffective because it is not the breed of dog that is dangerous; rather, it is unfavorable situations that create dangerous dogs


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> The pit bull is not a distinct breed which may make it difficult for experts to identify,[3][4][5] and while mixed breed dogs are often labelled a "pit bull" if they have certain physical characteristics such as a square shaped head or bulky body type,[2] visual identification of mixed breed dogs is not recommended by the scholarly community.[3]


just wanted to point out this part of my post, experts cant,, (but you can??)

and to answer the difference between a working or show dog with exact genetic makeups,, there is no difference, only that one owner decided to show and one decided to work..
branching off and breeding to dogs to enhance the show/work, is where the different breeds start to separate...


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> So my absolute APBT, no questions, no problems, that DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A PITBULL, you would be saying that because of looks I don't have an APBT. or vise versa..


The dog in your avatar? Looks like an APBT to me!

( it's really a small pic, but yeah..).

BUT, I am not allowed to say that because I do not know the background/heritage/pedigree OF that dog.

Right?

Pit Bulls vary a lot in appearance. They are generally not a cookie-cutter breed. But I KNOW that and take it into consideration when I make an educated decision on whether a dog APPEARS to be of a particular breed (Border Collies aren't a cookie-cutter breed either).


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

not my avatar...


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> and to answer the difference between a working or show dog with exact genetic makeups,, there is no difference, only that one owner decided to show and one decided to work..
> *branching off and breeding to dogs to enhance the show/work, is where the different breeds start to separate...*


that part I bolded is what I'm talking about.....there are distinct lines in many breeds that are known for being good working dogs; and distinct lines (yes, of same breed!) that are more known for say, being show dogs...

It's no secret as to what is what and it's easy enough to go get what you want within the breed (a show dog or a working dog)


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> not my avatar...


Well, it really wouldn't matter WHAT you showed me. It could be a well-known pit dog, BUT I could not call it an American Pit Bull Terrier until I knew the pedigree/heritage, etc

Could I?


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

but when you breed a APBT to a show dog to get better show dogs it isn't an ABT anymore.
Started with one. but no longer...

All black people are from Africa, but live in the US and outside.. The ones that are from outside the US are not African Americans,, and they HATE it when you call them that..
Same principle,, just because her dog looks like it has some "pitbull" type blood in it (A. you cant say its got APBT in it for sure just some "pitbull" type blood, and (B. you cant know without seeing how it was bred to be an APBT for sure after the "look" matches.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> Well, it really wouldn't matter WHAT you showed me. It could be a well-known pit dog, BUT I could not call it an American Pit Bull Terrier until I knew the pedigree/heritage, etc
> 
> Could I?


Exactly,,,

I can call it an APBT,, but YOU cant without knowing, exactly exactly the point.. Looks will never tell you for sure what blood is in the dog


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Btw,, to prove my point to you dreamer... The dog in my profile is not an apbt lol... I have the pedigree...


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> but when you breed a APBT to a show dog to get better show dogs it isn't an ABT anymore.


Not quite sure what you mean here.

Again, I have to ask, what IS the definition of an American Pit Bull Terrier?

IS it only a proven pit dog, no matter what it looks like?


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> Btw,, to prove my point to you dreamer... The dog in my profile is not an apbt lol... I have the pedigree...


That's cool. It is a small pic! Saying the dog in a picture "looks like" or "appears to be" a breed is not the same as saying it IS a breed!

Care to share the ped? Just curious.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

No.. goddamn girl.. this isn't rocket science..

and this topic is covered here in GP multiple times and talking til blue in the face to someone not wanting to learn is pointless.

American (PIT) BULL-Terrier.. If the dog comes from APBT bloodlines. both parents. the dog is an APBT. 
AmStaffs look JUST LIKE A APBT in lots of cases, but they were bred out of APBT lines (to bully lines or otherwise) to create more of a show animal. 
Gameness in the dog has very little to do with the animal being an APBT, but is a good trait.

An APBT is a dog bred only to other APBT lines, whether inbred or cross-bred, but only cross-bred into another APBT line.. cross breeding into anything else changes what you have.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

is this an APBT??

http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/37466-kanes-first-headshot.html

or these?

http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/39953-day-ms-kali-pic-heavy.html

heres a bigger pic of my avatar dog..
what do you think>??

http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/41300-few-kali-adba-show-chipley-fl.html


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> American (PIT) BULL-Terrier.. If the dog comes from APBT bloodlines. both parents. the dog is an APBT.
> AmStaffs look JUST LIKE A APBT in lots of cases, but they were bred out of APBT lines (to bully lines or otherwise) to create more of a show animal.
> Gameness in the dog has very little to do with the animal being an APBT, but is a good trait.
> 
> An APBT is a dog bred only to other APBT lines, whether inbred or cross-bred, but only cross-bred into another APBT line.. cross breeding into anything else changes what you have.


Okay, that's what I go by! so we are on the same page. Doesn't change a thing I said here.

Oh, and most of the time, you CAN tell an Am Staf from a Pit Bull. Not all the time, but most. If i see a pic that could be either, I say so.

And, the Am Staf yes all go back to APBTs.

And yes, some Am Staf lines are in those dogs that get called "bullies" , but those lines are still Am Staf lines. Within the AST breed, those lines are NOT called "bully" lines just because the "bully" people call them that. I guess it depends on your perspective!


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> That's cool. It is a small pic! Saying the dog in a picture "looks like" or "appears to be" a breed is not the same as saying it IS a breed!
> 
> Care to share the ped? Just curious.


sure .. ill get it to ya..


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> Okay, that's what I go by! so we are on the same page. Doesn't change a thing I said here.
> 
> Oh, and most of the time, you CAN tell an Am Staf from a Pit Bull. Not all the time, but most. If i see a pic that could be either, I say so.
> 
> ...


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> Dreamer said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, that's what I go by! so we are on the same page. Doesn't change a thing I said here.
> ...


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> heres a bigger pic of my avatar dog..
> what do you think>??
> 
> http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/41300-few-kali-adba-show-chipley-fl.html


So if you didn't already know the answer I told you.. What would you say to this pic?


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> heres a bigger pic of my avatar dog..
> what do you think>??


mmmmm- yeah, I'd say she appears to an APBT (like many UKC APBTs and fewer ADBA APBTs, she could have some AST in her; but she is still considered an APBT within those registries.) Some individuals would say NO, she is not an APBT if she has AST in her. I'm just going by how the registry calls them.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Well, that my dear Dreamer.. Is a prime example of an AmStaff, Not an APBT. That looks like an APBT
I bred to the dog and not the bloodline with her.. and she has the heart.. oh does she..  but she is not an APBT

The point is through looks you cannot tell someone they have something they don't.. Only that maybe possibly it looks like one.. which has no education behind it...


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Dreamer,if you don't like this board...leave. You are constantly saying "this board thinks ___" or "this board doesn't like____" implying you feel the opposite. The bottom line is, with bully breeds (as there are so many separate breeds) you can not tell what their breed is without having some family history...it's not that hard to understand. Some breeds you CAN TELL what they are by looking at them as there are not tons of other breeds that look like them...back to my example of the dachshund...


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## APBTN00b (Jul 8, 2013)

Bleck I need to learn to shut my mouth! LOL


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> Well, that my dear Dreamer.. Is a prime example of an AmStaff, Not an APBT. That looks like an APBT
> I bred to the dog and not the bloodline with her.. and she has the heart.. oh does she..  but she is not an APBT
> 
> The point is through looks you cannot tell someone they have something they don't.. Only that maybe possibly it looks like one.. which has no education behind it...


Very cool. I did say "most of the time"! LOL.

Now, I'm really interested in the ped!

It really doesn't change my attitude on all this. Anyone that knows the history knows that my "guess" is not out of line when it comes to these breeds! I could probably find a purebred Am Staf that many would identify as a game bred APBT from a picture! THere is NOTHING WRONG with what I do and have done when it comes to saying a picture looks like or appears to be something. And I will continue to do it.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> THere is NOTHING WRONG with what I do and have done when it comes to saying a picture looks like or appears to be something. And I will continue to do it.


Yes, there is.
And here is what is wrong.

Newbee A comes in and asks this forum if they think they have an APBT by looking at photos. You chime in and say yes, it looks like APBT is the predominant line of the dog. That newbee leaves to go tell his friends and the world that he has an APBT, then his mix breed "pitbull type" dog goes out and bites someone and now the media has ammo for all APBT ("pitbull type") dogs.

If you tell the OP that they have a mix breed dog. period, and only until a pedigree shows otherwise, then when their dog does something that a true APBT would not do.. we as responsible owners of legitimately bred APBT dogs wont take the heat from BSL.

BSL is a BIG problem... so yes, there is something wrong with it..


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

HeavyJeep said:


> Yes, there is.
> And here is what is wrong.
> 
> Newbee A comes in and asks this forum if they think they have an APBT by looking at photos. You chime in and say yes, it looks like APBT is the predominant line of the dog. That newbee leaves to go tell his friends and the world that he has an APBT, then his mix breed "pitbull type" dog goes out and bites someone and now the media has ammo for all APBT ("pitbull type") dogs.
> ...


I have no clue how to give rep from this app so I'll have to do it when i get back to the computer. Excellent post and the best reason why it's Not okay to call any dog of unknown lineage a specific breed.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> Newbee A comes in and asks this forum if they think they have an APBT by looking at photos. You chime in and say yes, it looks like APBT is the predominant line of the dog. That newbee leaves to go tell his friends and the world that he has an APBT, then his mix breed "pitbull type" dog goes out and bites someone and now the media has ammo for all APBT ("pitbull type") dogs.
> 
> If you tell the OP that they have a mix breed dog. period, and only until a pedigree shows otherwise, then when their dog does something that a true APBT would not do.. we as responsible owners of legitimately bred APBT dogs wont take the heat from BSL.
> 
> BSL is a BIG problem... so yes, there is something wrong with it..


That is such a cop-out. As I have said before, it's a GIVEN that the dog doesn't have a pedigree! The newbie and everyone else he talks to KNOWS that because the guy can't produce any paperwork! On some of these pics, you don't think his buddies are going to say his dog doesn't look like a Pit Bull?

And, so WHAT if we tell the guy the "right" thing and that he has a "mixed breed"? These laws go by what the dog LOOKS LIKE! And US saying he's got a "mixed breed" doesn't keep these laws from saying it looks like a Pit Bull when his "mixed breed" goes out and bites someone!


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## APBTN00b (Jul 8, 2013)

Dreamer if you own a mutt you own a mutt. No picture is going to change that fact. When you go around throwing breed names because it looks like a particular breed of dog, you are not only spreading misinformation, but you are setting the owner and dog up for failure. And that is a huge problem.

I hate it that shelters do this. You do know that there are several breeds that share the same characteristics like head, body build, color, shape, ears, ect. 

For example. I have seen A LOT of people calling Labrador Retrievers a 'pit bull' or 'pit bull type dog'. Yes that would have to be a very poorly bred Lab, but they are out there.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

APBTN00b said:


> I hate it that shelters do this. You do know that there are several breeds that share the same characteristics like head, body build, color, shape, ears, ect.


Shelter employees are notoriously bad at identifying breeds and they also sometimes try to mislead when it comes to IDing breeds.

I see this all the time in my local paper -- obvious Pit Bull that is ID'd as a Lab or Jack Russell mix. That will do the senior couple that adopts a mellow "Lab mix" a lot of good.

I'm not going to lower myself to that level.


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## APBTN00b (Jul 8, 2013)

But you are lowering yourself to that level. You are looking at a picture of a dog and telling people it has pit in it or not. That is just as bad. There is nothing wrong with just telling the owner straight up that with out a pedigree they more than likely have a mixture of god knows what, and call it a mutt.

Tell me, is this dog a pit bull?
https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/t1/5080_1167298295221_3331789_n.jpg

What about his one?
https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1/190285_1793854558736_2381401_n.jpg


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> That is such a cop-out. As I have said before, it's a GIVEN that the dog doesn't have a pedigree! The newbie and everyone else he talks to KNOWS that because the guy can't produce any paperwork! On some of these pics, you don't think his buddies are going to say his dog doesn't look like a Pit Bull?
> 
> And, so WHAT if we tell the guy the "right" thing and that he has a "mixed breed"? *These laws go by what the dog LOOKS LIKE*! And US saying he's got a "mixed breed" doesn't keep these laws from saying it looks like a Pit Bull when his "mixed breed" goes out and bites someone!


 UM... No, they don't, and that's the issue 
BSL even stands for BREED SPECIFIC LEGISLATION

An APBT is not a AST is not a AmStaff is not a mix breed, and when a mix breed or other is recognized as an APBT then we get lumped in the category with all others!

You are not learning :stick:,, so Im gonna wipe my hands and let you just do you. Others have and will tell you what I have and maybe someday youll help us save our breed from people like you!


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Soooo ima throw my hat in this ring....

Imo you cant look at ANY dog and say with ANY confidence their breed... ive seen oure labs(akc family bred for 20 years) and ppl swear "they gotz pit heads jo".... also a rat terrier x with a jack russel can looks like a full bred jack russell... my point is it aint just "bull breeds" its ever breed... just cuz its chocolate, medium coat, and retrieves everything u throw dont mean the dogs 100% chocolate lab... pedigree determines breed with EVERY breed....


Now back to ur regularly scheduled bullshit about dogs "looking" like "pitz"


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

HeavyJeep said:


> Yes, there is.
> And here is what is wrong.
> 
> Newbee A comes in and asks this forum if they think they have an APBT by looking at photos. You chime in and say yes, it looks like APBT is the predominant line of the dog. That newbee leaves to go tell his friends and the world that he has an APBT, then his mix breed "pitbull type" dog goes out and bites someone and now the media has ammo for all APBT ("pitbull type") dogs.
> ...


:goodpost:  and exactly correct!


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> ive seen oure labs(akc family bred for 20 years) and ppl swear "they gotz pit heads jo"....


The "ppl" are kinda right, if they've been to the AKC Labrador conformation ring anytime in the last 20 years! The heads on those Labs and a lot of the pet Labs look more like "pit heads" than they USED to!

It's not a good thing for Labs! But, I CAN see how "ppl" would swear "they gotz pit heads jo"....


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamer 
That is such a cop-out. As I have said before, it's a GIVEN that the dog doesn't have a pedigree! The newbie and everyone else he talks to KNOWS that because the guy can't produce any paperwork! On some of these pics, you don't think his buddies are going to say his dog doesn't look like a Pit Bull?

And, so WHAT if we tell the guy the "right" thing and that he has a "mixed breed"? *These laws go by what the dog LOOKS LIKE!* And US saying he's got a "mixed breed" doesn't keep these laws from saying it looks like a Pit Bull when his "mixed breed" goes out and bites someone!



HeavyJeep said:


> UM... No, they don't, and that's the issue


You sure about that?


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Dreamer said:


> The "ppl" are kinda right, if they've been to the AKC Labrador conformation ring anytime in the last 20 years! The heads on those Labs and a lot of the pet Labs look more like "pit heads" than they USED to!
> 
> It's not a good thing for Labs! But, I CAN see how "ppl" would swear "they gotz pit heads jo"....


Well considering the comment came from and uneducated colored guy who swore hunter was a pit bull for the first 3 years he was alive id say it was just a stupid comment made by an idiot much like all yours...


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Well considering the comment came from and uneducated colored guy who swore hunter was a pit bull for the first 3 years he was alive id say it was just a stupid comment made by an idiot much like all yours...


yeah, it was stupid all right, because anyone HERE would not have said it, right? Everyone else here would have seen LABRADORS, in spite of the rather blocky heads they have today. I just see why the UNEDUCATED would have made that comment!


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Idk what kinda labs u deal with but hunter doesn't have a blocky head at all. Its narrow as hell and his snout is narrow and long... nothing about him resembles an apbt at all...


Just run along and tell us how looks determine breed til u get banned....


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Dreamer
> That is such a cop-out. As I have said before, it's a GIVEN that the dog doesn't have a pedigree! The newbie and everyone else he talks to KNOWS that because the guy can't produce any paperwork! On some of these pics, you don't think his buddies are going to say his dog doesn't look like a Pit Bull?
> 
> ...


YES I AM. These laws go by what breed you have. Its not called the BLAL (Breed Look Alike Legislation)

Are you arguing that the BSL laws go by what dogs LOOK like? Really??
Cause that is an ignorant statement,,


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Sorry for the novel

I hate the term BSL (and BSL of course lol). I prefer to use BDL, Breed Discriminatory Legislation, because the laws are anything BUT SPECIFIC, all they do is discriminate! They vary by where, who and how and when they are enforced, or not enforced.

yes they are incorrectly labeling and making society think its OK to make up a "type" of dog based off looks alone then generalizing its behavioral traits off of said look. Their are classifications I would allow, working dogs, herding dogs, hound dogs, companion, dogs, feral dogs shit there are so many classifications why do we need to confuse it with a type based off appearance alone and not behavior.

For example most BDL laws state XYZ and apply it to: Rottweiler, chow, APBT, AST, or mixes thereof" (as well as 123 other breeds of dogs who are names in laws at being excluded in some for or another) shoot some even have a ton of breeds listed and then say "pit bull". THAT is a NICKNAME of a breed. You have some say there is no such thing as a pit bull, others say you can tell a pit bull by looking, some say pit bull is a type, some say pit bull is a nickname for a breed. Like Lab is for Labrador and Dobie is for Doberman. Why cant the American pit Bull terrier have a nickname with out people trying to use it to describe any mongrel that has certain characteristics? (I am in that camp, poor pit bulls cant even get a nickname of their own without it causing drama) there are also those that feel and APBT is ONLY a dog that has been in the [] and anything else is a bulldog. or an APBT bred for conformation is an AST by definition, but an APBT by blood lines. WTF. PEOPLE CANT MAKE UP THEIR MINDS lol

WHY must people think the work mutt means a dog has more than one breed in it? MANY MANY mutts COULD be pure bred dogs, the point is a mutt is UNKNOWN (and another definition is of mixed heritage). HELP EDUCATE people and MAYBE one day people will realize how stupid BDL is and how you cant predict behavior based of owning a mutt.

NO ONE can look at dogs and know what breed they are, especially since most dogs are a mixed breed. and if a dog is mixed, it doesn't take after one breed or another, its a combination and its a DOG. people can only GUESS.

Not sure of anyone has seen this study

Dog Breed Identification: What kind of dog is that? » Maddie's® Shelter Medicine Program » College of Veterinary Medicine » University of Florida 
"More than 5,000 dog experts, including breeders, trainers, groomers, veterinarians, shelter staff, rescuers, and others completed the survey. You are invited to view pictures of the 100 dogs in our study, their actual DNA breed results, and what our survey responders guessed their breeds were."


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Youre talking to a guy that can go for walks out on the public street with my dogs dragging a tire behind them on a harness, while AC sits and watches and loves it.
I am very actively involved in BSL and promote not only the differences in breeds but differences in owners and the dogs morale and health.

You are digging a bigger hole and making yourself look down right stupid. Please stop LOL


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

ames said:


> Not sure of anyone has seen this study
> 
> Dog Breed Identification: What kind of dog is that? » Maddie's® Shelter Medicine Program » College of Veterinary Medicine » University of Florida
> "More than 5,000 dog experts, including breeders, trainers, groomers, veterinarians, shelter staff, rescuers, and others completed the survey. You are invited to view pictures of the 100 dogs in our study, their actual DNA breed results, and what our survey responders guessed their breeds were."


Oh but you feel certain Ames that even though all those experts couldn't.. Our very own Dreamer can, and will, then defend it 

Maybe we should support her and we can all have her tell us all what it looks like we have,


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Idk what kinda labs u deal with but hunter doesn't have a blocky head at all. Its narrow as hell and his snout is narrow and long... nothing about him resembles an apbt at all...


sorry, I took it as a general comment....sometimes, because of their color and general body shape,and the fact that some are kinda stocky, sometimes Labs do get taken as other breeds by some people, I will admit that. But I don't put much stock in the opinions of those kinds of people and do not change my behavior because of THEM. I know that knowledgeable people can identify your dog and that is all that counts.



Just Tap Pits said:


> Just run along and tell us how looks determine breed til u get banned....


Then there really are no "breeds".

Now, if you are saying that looks don't determine pedigree and registration, well, heck yes. Like I said, that is a given with a dog whose pedigree is unknown; but it can still appear to be of a breed.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> Then there really are no "breeds".
> 
> Now, if you are saying that looks don't determine pedigree and registration, well, heck yes. Like I said, that is a given with a dog whose pedigree is unknown; but it can still appear to be of a breed.


 It can appear>??? So now we are here to tell all the newbies wanting to know what breed they have because they appear to be so....
Where the F is KMDogs,, post a pic of his dog so our resident expert can tell us what he has.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

ames said:


> Not sure of anyone has seen this study
> 
> Dog Breed Identification: What kind of dog is that? » Maddie's® Shelter Medicine Program » College of Veterinary Medicine » University of Florida
> "More than 5,000 dog experts, including breeders, trainers, groomers, veterinarians, shelter staff, rescuers, and others completed the survey. You are invited to view pictures of the 100 dogs in our study, their actual DNA breed results, and what our survey responders guessed their breeds were."


I like some of your post.

But when some study claims that DNA results tell you what breed you have, all is lost. That study has no credibility and I don't even have to go read it, if they are determining breed by DNA.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> I like some of your post.
> 
> But when some study claims that DNA results tell you what breed you have, all is lost. That study has no credibility and I don't even have to go read it, if they are determining breed by DNA.


:curse::rain::rofl::flush:

So now a DNA profiling of a breed is not accurate??? No credibility??
Oh my...


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> Maybe we should support her and we can all have her tell us all what it looks like we have,


Yes, I'd much rather see a dog in the flesh before I would say, "it IS" whatever breed; barring that, from one picture, I'd rather say, yes, "it looks like" "it appears to be" or "seems to be" a (breed)".


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

This chick can tell what dog you have by looking at it. Forget forensic DNA, geneology and dog experts, they just need to all ask her from now on. Our world is saved


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> So now a DNA profiling of a breed is not accurate??? No credibility??
> Oh my...


"Oh my" is right.

DNA tells me what breed I have, is that what you are saying?


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

But that doesnt mean the dog is or should it be labeled as that breed.. the ppl coming here want to be toldtheir random dogs are pit bulls 90% dont have the cerebral function to understand that without a pedigree they have a mutt let alone having sum1 else tell them "well it looks like a pit". How can anyone educate when sum1 else is co signing the bs that they want to believe? 

Now my question is do you even own a dog? If so what breed? Got pics? Whats your experience with the aobt, am bully, am staff, ban dogs, and mutts that "look like" those breeds(individually of course)? 

I only ask bcuz all ive seem from u is complaining about how thing operate around here... maybe if u tried to introduce yourself properly you could be taken more seriously and the view point you hold may not seem so left field and wont come off as u know more than the rest of us...


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> "Oh my" is right.
> 
> DNA tells me what breed I have, is that what you are saying?


Um.. YES!

A DNA PROFILE WILL TELL YOU EXACTLY HOW THE DOG WAS BRED.. CHECK THIS OUT YOU DUMB SAD PATHETIC GIRL
HERE IS THE BREAKDOWN OF A GENETIC POOL ON ONE DOG,, AN APBT BTW

ONLINE PEDIGREES PEDIGREE STATISTICS :: CRENSHAW'S JEEP (4XW) :: [2]

AND TELL ME YOURE RIGHT AND WE ARE ALL WRONG HERE


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Even beyond people that paper hang pedigrees (should i explain what that is?) a dna profile is the 100% margin, *the* way anyone can tell 100%


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Im not km but we can play with my dogs...


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> Um.. YES!
> 
> A DNA PROFILE WILL TELL YOU EXACTLY HOW THE DOG WAS BRED..


I asked if a DNA profile (or analysis) determined BREED; not how the dog was bred.

Edited: 'what you posted is more of a PEDIGREE profile/analysis than a DNA analysis.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

how the dog was bred determines the breed


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> the ppl coming here want to be toldtheir random dogs are pit bulls 90% dont have the cerebral function to understand that without a pedigree they have a mutt let alone having sum1 else tell them "well it looks like a pit". How can anyone educate when sum1 else is co signing the bs that they want to believe?


Well, I guess I give people a bit more credit...

"Education" would be telling people, "Yeah, looks very much like a Pit Bull, but whatever it is, it looks enough like a Pit Bull that it would be covered under BSL. And maybe why they really don't need another male dog around if they live in an apartment. And explaining why the dog -- no matter whether it was pedigreed or not -- should not be bred and why it should be neutered and trained, etc.

THAT is educating.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

And tellimg them that their dog can look like bobo the bear, but that doesn't make it a grizzly is education also....


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Dreamer said:


> Well, I guess I give people a bit more credit...
> 
> "Education" would be telling people, "Yeah, looks very much like a Pit Bull, but whatever it is, it looks enough like a Pit Bull that it would be covered under BSL. And maybe why they really don't need another male dog around if they live in an apartment. And explaining why the dog -- no matter whether it was pedigreed or not -- should not be bred and why it should be neutered and trained, etc.
> 
> THAT is educating.


agreed, and that is what people ARE told, not sure if you are just going off the canned responses some people give time and time again, but you cant judge an entire forum of some individuals posts.

As far as DNA profiling they are able to determine with accuracy blood based DNA panels for determining your dog's breeds' DNA by comparing to the genetic signatures of more than 235 breeds, types and varieties. No they don't have them all, and it will always be changing. But they identify the genetic markers for different breeds and if you understand how it is possible, its not that difficult of a concept.

Shame you didn't click the study. Even if you don't agree with blood drawn DNA tests accuracy its extremely interesting seeing the varied 5,000 expert responses given on the same dog. Even experts cant agree on what the dogs might be visually, DNA test or not.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

ames said:


> Shame you didn't click the study. Even if you don't agree with blood drawn DNA tests accuracy its extremely interesting seeing the varied 5,000 expert responses given on the same dog. Even experts cant agree on what the dogs might be visually, DNA test or not.


I went and looked.

1. Here is a list of the experts they chose:

_More than 5,000 dog experts, including breeders, trainers, groomers, veterinarians, shelter staff, rescuers, and others completed the survey_.

While there may be individuals within these groups that are real good breed identifiers, in general, these groups are about the worst when it comes to familiarity with hundreds of breeds. Why not an all-breed dog show judge who judges hundreds of breeds all over the world?

2. Under "results" I see singular breed names AND a result called "no predominant breed". So, these experts were obviously told to give the breed that looked like predominated._ Actually, the answers don't look too bad if you look at some of those pictures._ The people apparently weren't asked to pick what MIX of breeds they were, but what breed PREDOMINATED. Some of the DNA results are...interesting, no?

3. And really, yeah, look at what the DNA results are. Some very rare, unknown breeds there that do make you kinda laugh when you look at the pics.

4. But YES, those dogs could very well have DNA markers of some strange breeds in their DNA (as do KNOWN purebreds!), because DNA does not SEE breeds like MAN has defined them! All dogs, even purebreds, have all kinds of breed DNA in them because dogs evolved from various groups of dogs that originated in different parts of the world, and, they have retained bits of ancient types in their DNA. Breeds far removed from a Mastiff influence may very well show a Mastiff marker!

5. What would be even more interesting would be to see pics of KNOWN purebreds (as man and registries and the accepted purebred dog model defines them) and do the same thing. I'd like to see the breeds that are listed by the experts and what DNA sees.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Wheres fh and his genetics geek self?


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Probly realized a long time ago that this girl is stupid and doesn't deserve his finger muscles. 
If 5000 people who spent longer learning the topic than she is alive are wrong, apparently she can change the world.

I think so if we all just ignore her and don't respond, answer or talk to her maybe she will go away... Lol maybe I'm the dreamer right now.

1. Youre a troll
2. You've never answered who you are or if you even own a dog.
3. Who are you to contradict genealogy? Offer one piece of anything that shows your accomplishments that allows you to contradict science?
4. What do you think an APBT is?
5. It's funny that there avatar of yours. In retrospect to your knowledge. Oh, and I've seen it before, troll. Lol
6. Can you even buy a beer?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## APBTN00b (Jul 8, 2013)

JTP, She wouldn't believe them anyways. I'm at the point of 'why bother...'. Apparently she knows everything and can obviously point out a pb.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm just asking ... if you all like that study (and I DID say the experts they chose did do a pretty good job of picking the predominant breed by what I saw)...I just think they could have chosen better ones....maybe a couple of all-breed show judges...

Is that the best way to determine BREED? By blood DNA results?

If so, lets do another easy study using all purebred animals.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> 5. It's funny that there avatar of yours. In retrospect to your knowledge. Oh, and I've seen it before, troll. Lol
> ]


Okay, I'll bite.
If you've seen that before, you know what number it is, the sculptor/artist, and who has the only other one in existence.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

Breed Identification | National Canine Research Council


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## dday (Oct 5, 2010)

Goemon said:


> verdugo...you were direct and honest in your post, and I can respect that. I would most likely fall into the category of "pure breed" owners you described, so I'll give you my honesty in return. Please follow my words, so as not to misunderstand.
> 
> You are a happy and positive pet owner, and enjoy the companionship. No problem with that at all, from my end. I myself do not hate dogs, unless they are human aggressive without a cause. The main thing I have a problem with is the new owners who claim their dog is something it is not. I have been in love with the American (pit) Bull Terrier since I was a child. While I liked all dogs, those were my favorites. Always will be. IMO they have things about them no other dog ever will.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: Good post, actually it sounds like your experience with the apbt, and your opinion about the topic, mirrors mine almost to a tee. Except since I don't like to believe I "hate" anyone, mine is more of a feeling of disgust.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Thanks for taking the time to check it out. I added some comments in red below



Dreamer said:


> I went and looked.
> 
> 1. Here is a list of the experts they chose:
> 
> ...


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

so, basically the thought IS is that the definition of what is a purebred dog or a breed should be determined by DNA.

I think it would be a game-changer myself. Not many known purebred dogs with a known heritage are going to test as purebred ANYTHING! They are all going to have leftover markers from types which made UP the various breeds eons ago. I think Dobermans are going to have many of the markers (or maybe just some of the markers) which show up in the ancient types which made up the Rottweiler and Greyhound.


It shouldn't be any problem for someone to run the test of known purebreds and I wonder why it hasn't been done yet.
It's always done on mixed breeds.


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

_And to you (a non believer) it means their results are incorrect (aka if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit! remember OJ got off because people didn't believe in DNA in the 90's, look how far its come) where to me it proves dog A and Dog B might not produce a dog that resembles either breed in any way and might look like a whole other breed entirely. _

Totally different use of DNA -- matching a sample to an individual vs the mix of genes that happens when you breed two animals/plants, etc.

DNA is also extremely useful in determining parentage, but again that is totally different from crossing dog A and B and being able to find out....what?

Now, I don't think the DNA results are incorrect -- for the molecular level they are LOOKING at! But, is that the way we have determined "breed" all these years??


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## Cannon from NJ (Feb 4, 2013)

Alot of people feel they have to justify themselves paying $1000+ for papers and a pup, while others' pit bull rescues are perfect angels.... which is why their normal response is something like "without reg papers there's no way of telling what breed you have", which is true, but if the dog is just a companion and family member, who cares.
(EDIT) Also, I've read alot of negative comments from members who only own one dog that they keep on a chain and serve no purpose, but think they know everything because of what they read online.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I know it's not the same DNA my point was people doubt science and I tend to believe in science and percentages. For instance even in closed gene pools traits are only inherited one in every four dogs. 25% of the time. Especially when traits are not always breed specific. Lots breeds can herd. Different breeds retrieve, just to different degrees than others.

And determining history argument is the red herring of dog breed arguments. Come on now. "They were all wolves once" Argument is old and tired.

Why is it so important to continue to follow those who believe behavior is determined by a look Instead if trying to get people to understand appearance doesn't equate to behavior. And even when it does, as long as a any dog is managed properly, it shouldn't matter.

Cannon - I hear you. But I feel most have spent time, money, huge efforts in finding the perfect dog for them. They should be able to appreciate those who have done the same. Most people who own mutts, like my amazing boy, didn't acquire them with as much research as they could have. (Not all papered dog owners research and not all mutt owners don't do their reach so speak. All I'm saying is I can understand why it's something to get hung up on. Their "real" APBT's unfairly get the blame. Something has to get people to understand breed neutral laws would accomplish so much more.

People in world are all about labels. In every form. That's why people get so caught up breeds and labels. And why get so offended and act like mutt is a bad thing?!

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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Cannon from NJ said:


> Alot of people feel they have to justify themselves paying $1000+ for papers and a pup, while others' pit bull rescues are perfect angels.... which is why their normal response is something like "without reg papers there's no way of telling what breed you have", which is true, but if the dog is just a companion and family member, who cares.
> (EDIT) Also, I've read alot of negative comments from members who only own one dog that they keep on a chain and serve no purpose, but think they know everything because of what they read online.


I'm sorry but this is just not true at all. No matter what they paid for their dog with papers that has nothing to do with why they say that. They say it because it's true... It's not as easy to look at a dog and say, that is pure pit, as it is to say about a more distinct breed like a German shepherd, Doberman, shar pei, poodle, etc. Not to say APBT aren't good looking dogs but honestly how many floppy eared, short coated, medium sized breeds are there? Quite a few...

My opinion on it all is, if I was asked does this dog look like a pit, I would say yes, it looks like one, (which they must already have a decent idea of themselves when they come to the pit bull forum) but it is impossible to say for sure. However, I would not tell them they have a mutt and they have to call it a mutt. I've mentioned it before but the average joe would likely take offense to that word. It is not used in everyday terms the way it is used here and it is usually much easier for them to swallow that they have a mix rather than a mutt. And also, telling someone you don't know they CAN'T do something is another quick way to tick someone off.

I would not tell them they have a dog with pit bull in it, though. I have seen Dreamer post that and I don't agree with it. I don't believe for one second someone could look at the majority of these photos here and say with certainty the dog is a pit bull or a mix of one.

I won't comment on the second part of Cannon's post, since it's obviously not true.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

You can not determine a full bred dog of ANY breed based soley off looks... just bcuz it looks more doberman like doesn't mean something else isnt in there also... amd I dnt give a damn for anyones feelings I care about protectimg dogs from bsl... if you want a pit bull research and buy one from a reputable breeder otherwise quit wishing your MUTTS are pit bulls and ruining the breed by labelimg your MUTTS as such.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> You can not determine a full bred dog of ANY breed based soley off looks... just bcuz it looks more doberman like doesn't mean something else isnt in there also...


True, but let's be honest here, it has a far more distinct look than a pit bull.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> True, but let's be honest here, it has a far more distinct look than a pit bull.


Lets be honest the dog can look like a bear dont make it a grizzly...

And you soent months telling everyone you know what a pit bull looks like.....


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Lets be honest the dog can look like a bear dont make it a grizzly...
> 
> And you soent months telling everyone you know what a pit bull looks like.....


I do know what a pit bull looks like. Most people do.

And I did agree with you, if you missed it. I was making a point that with dogs like Dobermans, you can take a pretty safe bet that if it looks like one, it likely is one or a mix of one. There aren't as many breeds you could mix together to make a dog that looked like one but was not, as opposed to a pit bull.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Wait u and most ppl know what they look like but they arent a distinguishable breed like a doberman?


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Heres my point; take ladypits "royler"(if I butchered that kick my ass lp)... he looks like a rott mix right? Simce you weren't there in theory even though he does look like a rott mix he could be a lab, St Bernard, doberman mix, with absolutely no rott in him...

What about huskies, those smaller husky looking dogs (drawing a blank sorry fh) and wolf hybrids? All 3 could easily be comfused in and amongst themselves... but a husky is a very distinguishable breed compared to othwr breeds...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

No way "most people" have no clue what a real APBT looks like. They know the medias idea of a pit bull looks like not what one actually is!!! People are typically shocked when they see my boys 26lb beautiful healthy APBT. They are brainwashed into think big blue dogs are pit bulls. Most people are surprised when they can I finally grasp the difference between the breeds that are commonly lumped together. It's the ahhh haaa moments i love.

Are you people not on Facebook? lol There are many groups on there and shoot many other forums who also understand what a mutt is and visually id'ing any breed isn't kosher. We aren't the only forum who things mutts are great dogs but they aren't a pit bull.

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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

ames said:


> Are you people not on Facebook?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Really? You conned me into a twitter(for that shirt i wore 2x and threw into the rag buckwt)... I even thought about learning how to tweet but I draw the line at that ish....


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Wait u and most ppl know what they look like but they arent a distinguishable breed like a doberman?


Hmm I see your confusion I'll try to clarify without getting myself all mixed up.

I know what a pit bull looks like, and I could say, this dog looks like a pit bull. But even though it looks like one, it could very well be a boxer mix, lab mix, any number of things that are not a pit bull but are close enough that it makes a dog most would swear up and down was a pit. 
If I said, this dog looks like a Doberman, there is a much better chance that I am right since it has fairly distinct features, ones most other dogs do not have and I'm sure it's not impossible but far less likely that two mixed dogs who were not Dobermans would have puppies that looked like one. That is what I meant by a "distinct" breed I probably worded it poorly.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Or say the pit bull jaw and the GSD pointy ears. There are distinguishable characteristics of breeds that are more dominant as a mix than in the other breed so people see a wide jaw and say pit bull or ears sticking up and say GSD.

What about those crazy Merle loving APBT owners. They feel Their dogs are APBT but they have to be a mix at some point since Merle doesn't occur in the APBT. They call their dogs pit bulls people tell them go love their mutts and they get all pissed off. Same theory.

And I agree some great pit bulls have been given away!! It's NOT about paying for any dog it's about knowing the Temperament and history so you can have the best chance at getting a dog with all the traits your looking for.

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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

No im not confused youre just talking rubbish.... ill post a REAL American PIT bull terrier amd you'll most likely tell me it looks like a beagle, I can post pics of my 90lbs dog all day and it "looks" like a pit to most ppl. You cant fool me into thinking you know what a apbt looks like opposed to any other bull breed. Do you know what an am staff looks like? Have you ever said "that dog looks like an am staff"... highly doubt it I bet it looked like a "pit bull or pit mix"...


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

ames said:


> No way "most people" have no clue what a real APBT looks like. They know the medias idea of a pit bull looks like not what one actually is!!! People are typically shocked when they see my boys 26lb beautiful healthy APBT. They are brainwashed into think big blue dogs are pit bulls. Most people are surprised when they can I finally grasp the difference between the breeds that are commonly lumped together. It's the ahhh haaa moments i love.
> 
> Are you people not on Facebook? lol There are many groups on there and shoot many other forums who also understand what a mutt is and visually id'ing any breed isn't kosher. We aren't the only forum who things mutts are great dogs but they aren't a pit bull.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


No I have a facebook but I don't use it. I visit several forums that get a lot of "what is my dog" posts and people will guess but I don't think I have ever seen someone say "That dog is a _______." I did say I don't agree with saying a dog is a pit bull just by pictures. But I have no problem saying "This dog LOOKS like a ______." And there could be a bunch of other forums that know that mutt is not a bad word but I'm still confident that the majority of people still see it as something bad.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I get you and respect your opinion.

I do know that the phrase "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck" gets tossed in my face by anti pit bull people when I say even if its appearance is a pit bull it's behavior doesn't mean it's an untamed beast by default. That's why I try and stay away from guessing games anyway.

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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

ames said:


> Or say the pit bull jaw and the GSD pointy ears. There are distinguishable characteristics of breeds that are more dominant as a mix than in the other breed so people see a wide jaw and say pit bull or ears sticking up and say GSD.
> 
> What about those crazy Merle loving APBT owners. They feel Their dogs are APBT but they have to be a mix at some point since Merle doesn't occur in the APBT. They call their dogs pit bulls people tell them go love their mutts and they get all pissed off. Same theory.
> 
> ...


I am a member of a GSD forum I don't see the pointy ear thing you are talking about much but I see your point. That forum will also say "This dog looks like a GSD to me" but not that it IS. Maybe a small difference but to me, important. I can tell you what things look like all day long, it's just an opinion and does not make me right. And that person will say, maybe I do have a GSD and start researching more about them, maybe they learn some things they didn't know before and become a better dog owner because of it. When someone comes here, says "do I have a pit bull?", and I say, "It looks like a pit bull but it is impossible to say for sure", maybe the same thing happens. They say, wow, I COULD have a pit bull, maybe I should dig deeper into this forum and learn some more about them. At least, I hope so. People could do far worse than the info on this forum, I think getting them interested enough to read and learn would help against BSL.



Just Tap Pits said:


> No im not confused youre just talking rubbish.... ill post a REAL American PIT bull terrier amd you'll most likely tell me it looks like a beagle, I can post pics of my 90lbs dog all day and it "looks" like a pit to most ppl. You cant fool me into thinking you know what a apbt looks like opposed to any other bull breed. Do you know what an am staff looks like? Have you ever said "that dog looks like an am staff"... highly doubt it I bet it looked like a "pit bull or pit mix"...


No I haven't ever said that. And I have seen lots and lots and lots of pictures of the real APBTs that are posted here I think I would at least be able to tell the difference between one of those and a beagle. A pit bull and an Am Staff? Probably not. A bully? Yes, I think I could. If you don't believe me it doesn't bother me too much, don't blame you either, this being the internet and all. Everyone should take most things said on the internet with a grain of salt.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

ames said:


> I get you and respect your opinion.
> 
> I do know that the phrase "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck" gets tossed in my face by anti pit bull people when I say even if its appearance is a pit bull it's behavior doesn't mean it's an untamed beast by default. That's why I try and stay away from guessing games anyway.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I do understand why guessing games are more of a sore subject for the real pit bull owners. I think it can be fun to guess a puppy's breed, it gets people talking, thinking, asking, and sharing info like I said before. It is a dangerous line to toe with pit bulls, absolutely, but I honestly feel if the end result is that person wanting to learn more about the breed and finding out a lot of what they thought they knew about pit bulls was dead wrong it's worth it.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Well if you want to test that ability to tell what a pit bull looks like let me know. We can make a whole new thread all about picking out the pit bulls, am staffs, and dogs that are neither... im not beinf an ass but to say you can tell what a pit bull looks like then say you cant tell what an am staff looks like seems pretty far fetched...


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> Well if you want to test that ability to tell what a pit bull looks like let me know. We can make a whole new thread all about picking out the pit bulls, am staffs, and dogs that are neither... im not beinf an ass but to say you can tell what a pit bull looks like then say you cant tell what an am staff looks like seems pretty far fetched...


Understandable. They look very similar to me from what I have looked at on this forum. I have a general idea of what they look like, I meant I probably could not tell you the difference between an Am Staff and an APBT, but I think I could tell the difference between an APBT and a bully. I re-read my post it isn't very clear I apologize.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

I'mm not picking on anyone or trying to be a dick. Im trying to get this "what it looks like" and telling ppl their mutts look like pit bulls isnt ok point across... it gives a false sense of "yeah hes a pit, they said he looked like one"... that stuff aint flown here since I joined... I guess if its too harsh theres other boards that like to sugar coat and hold hands thatll tell ya whatever you want to hear. The world needs yes men I gues.... Id rather have the truth no bs and grow and learn.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> I'mm not picking on anyone or trying to be a dick. Im trying to get this "what it looks like" and telling ppl their mutts look like pit bulls isnt ok point across... it gives a false sense of "yeah hes a pit, they said he looked like one"... that stuff aint flown here since I joined... I guess if its too harsh theres other boards that like to sugar coat and hold hands thatll tell ya whatever you want to hear. The world needs yes men I gues.... Id rather have the truth no bs and grow and learn.


I've lurked for quite a while I don't feel picked on. This is a passionate forum and I get that. Your point is a good one and that's why I said it is a dangerous line to toe. And I know my opinion isn't shared by anyone else here, but it is my honest opinion. I won't even pretend to think it will change anyone else's feelings on the subject.

The other forums may be a bit more friendly but simply do not have the info this one has. And I don't know if it's as much sugarcoating as it is that they simply don't think anything of it because they aren't affected by BSL like pit bull owners. And don't get me wrong it's not like everyone is telling the OP what they want to hear, it's more like "I see x breed and x breed", "I don't see x I see this" and usually ends with "It is impossible to tell for sure." I am not saying by any means just to tell someone the dog looks like a pit to make them read more. I would be honest to the best of my knowledge. 
I wouldn't say a dog looks like a pit to appease someone and I would of course follow it up with "But that does NOT mean it is a pit bull. Here are links to explain why". But I think saying the dog does NOT look like a pit when it does, just to prove a point, is cheating that person out of an opportunity to learn about an amazing breed.

Doesn't make me right or wrong, JMO.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Dreamer said:


> so, basically the thought IS is that the definition of what is a purebred dog or a breed should be determined by DNA.
> 
> I think it would be a game-changer myself. Not many known purebred dogs with a known heritage are going to test as purebred ANYTHING! They are all going to have leftover markers from types which made UP the various breeds eons ago. I think Dobermans are going to have many of the markers (or maybe just some of the markers) which show up in the ancient types which made up the Rottweiler and Greyhound.
> 
> ...


 Ill offer you this different pedigree statistic to look at. The Statistic simply states the amount of percentage the dogs in the DNA history have predominance, while this isn't a DNA profile itself, they show the profile.
Notice the "DNA-P" behind the names of the dogs, it indicated DNA profiled, are you still arguing that DNA shows (not the only way to tell a true purebred breed) but the strongest most legitimate 100% way to put it to rest?

ONLINE PEDIGREES PEDIGREE STATISTICS :: APBT 4 LIFE'S PUPS :: [307457]



Sarah~ said:


> I am a member of a GSD forum I don't see the pointy ear thing you are talking about much but I see your point. That forum will also say "This dog looks like a GSD to me" but not that it IS. Maybe a small difference but to me, important. I can tell you what things look like all day long, it's just an opinion and does not make me right. And that person will say, maybe I do have a GSD and start researching more about them, maybe they learn some things they didn't know before and become a better dog owner because of it. When someone comes here, says "do I have a pit bull?", and I say, "It looks like a pit bull but it is impossible to say for sure", maybe the same thing happens. They say, wow, I COULD have a pit bull, maybe I should dig deeper into this forum and learn some more about them. At least, I hope so. People could do far worse than the info on this forum, I think getting them interested enough to read and learn would help against BSL.
> 
> No I haven't ever said that. And I have seen lots and lots and lots of pictures of the real APBTs that are posted here I think I would at least be able to tell the difference between one of those and a beagle. A pit bull and an Am Staff? Probably not. A bully? Yes, I think I could. If you don't believe me it doesn't bother me too much, don't blame you either, this being the internet and all. Everyone should take most things said on the internet with a grain of salt.


Sarah, your responses are always good hearted and well thought out. I applaud that considering some of the company here. While it is true that certain folks should be nicer and more attentive to the ignorance of newbies and try to start from scratch with each and every one, as if they were a child, and guide them with brief responses that make the point (in this case that their dog has certain appearances that share between not only "pitbulls" but other breeds as well, and to keep from confusing themselves and the public, until a geneology can be produced, at best they have a mix-breed dog. (I ALSO DO NOT LIKE TO USE THE TERM MUTT RIGHT OFF THE BAT WITH NEWBIES) Educating them that if they start telling everyone they have a pitbull that they are putting themselves at risk of BSL and saying its a mix-breed is safer anyway in the eyes of the haters.
Thank you for always sharing your kind thoughts and trying to make this an easier on the new people forum 



Just Tap Pits said:


> I'mm not picking on anyone or trying to be a dick. Im trying to get this "what it looks like" and telling ppl their mutts look like pit bulls isnt ok point across... it gives a false sense of "yeah hes a pit, they said he looked like one"... that stuff aint flown here since I joined... I guess if its too harsh theres other boards that like to sugar coat and hold hands thatll tell ya whatever you want to hear. The world needs yes men I gues.... Id rather have the truth no bs and grow and learn.


 Not everyone is as rough around the edges as yourself JTP, and nobody wants to hear the shyte flying out of your mouth when they first join. They don't want to be schooled right up front and you cant expect they get it anyway. They want first to be accepted, and find a group of folks they can spend some time with and learn. Not join at 2, and get told at 230 by the likes of you that their "MUTT" isn't a "pitbull" and there is no sugar coating. Do you expect the majority to stick around and grow with our forum that way? NO.. 
Be kind, or don't respond. Answer their question briefly, and direct them to use the search bar to research other posts or even read some stickies, but don't make it all about the "MIX or PURE" ,, link them to learning about BSL, and about learning to help others in life :cheers:



Sarah~ said:


> I've lurked for quite a while I don't feel picked on. This is a passionate forum and I get that. Your point is a good one and that's why I said it is a dangerous line to toe. And I know my opinion isn't shared by anyone else here, but it is my honest opinion. I won't even pretend to think it will change anyone else's feelings on the subject.
> 
> The other forums may be a bit more friendly but simply do not have the info this one has. And I don't know if it's as much sugarcoating as it is that they simply don't think anything of it because they aren't affected by BSL like pit bull owners. And don't get me wrong it's not like everyone is telling the OP what they want to hear, it's more like "I see x breed and x breed", "I don't see x I see this" and usually ends with "It is impossible to tell for sure." I am not saying by any means just to tell someone the dog looks like a pit to make them read more. I would be honest to the best of my knowledge.
> I wouldn't say a dog looks like a pit to appease someone and I would of course follow it up with "But that does NOT mean it is a pit bull. Here are links to explain why". But I think saying the dog does NOT look like a pit when it does, just to prove a point, is cheating that person out of an opportunity to learn about an amazing breed.
> ...


Neither Sarah. Some folks want a pitbull to be cool. Some realize the benfits of the breeds emotional connection and want that partner. Telling everyone that asks that their dog looks like a pit is a mute point I think, and youre right they have a general idea or they would've joined a GSD forum (for example).
Mostly people want to just plain out right know what they have, (I WOULD) and if we say up front yes it looks like a pitbull,, though it could not be, and here is why.... and there isn't a way to tell without DNA profiling which is expensive, or a traced papered lineage (which doesn't mean every papered dog is even pure as some Registries will just take your money and make papers (CKC). Education is key, and even if it isn't a "pure breed" doesn't make it less of an animal that deserves your protection and food.

Again Sarah,, You are neither wrong nor right because it changes on an individual level. But I agree with you that downing someones animal because they don't have the desire to pursue "papers" or trace the lineage isn't the direction I feel this forum wants to go. We sure wouldn't have any new people to pick on then... :hug:


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> But I think saying the dog does NOT look like a pit when it does, just to prove a point, is cheating that person out of an opportunity to learn about an amazing breed.
> .


Agreed.
And, think about it. It makes so-called knowledgeable people look kinda stupid when they state very emphatically that every quite Pit Bull-looking dog is a mutt! To me, that's being petty and the reason given for doing it seems petty.

The trend now with some "authorities" is to advance the notion that not only is there no such breed as an American Pit Bull Terrier, but really, that there are no "breeds" at all and no breed specific behaviors. Dogs are all the same, ya know and need to be treated the same....


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Thy dog need to own a mutt people would classify as a pit bull to learn about a dog breed though. Especially if hey may not even own that breed. I like learning about tons of different dog breeds. Doesn't mean I'm doing to own them all one day.

I also don't think there are many breeds with breed specific behaviors. Dog greasy on again can happen in tons of breeds.

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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> of the dogs, it indicated DNA profiled, are you still arguing that DNA shows (not the only way to tell a true purebred breed) but the strongest most legitimate 100% way to put it to rest?
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES PEDIGREE STATISTICS :: APBT 4 LIFE'S PUPS :: [307457]


the pedigree stats from a PEDIGREE and a DNA profile (which identifies an individual dog) are totally different from each other; and different again from the blood DNA analysis which was used in that study.

I'll stop because the way you worded your phrase, I don't understand what you are saying to be honest.


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## verdugo (Dec 30, 2013)

Hello again,

Oh boy I didn't know this will become a lecture.

All I wanted was a realistic humane answer to the trend.

And I'm not afraid to say: yes I'm a newbie on the whole which dog is better thing and I thank everyone for educate me.

But the real issue affects everyone. Such it is in places were dogs are banned, we all know the issue isn't breed purity, it's poor breeding practices at least we all agree on that!

bottom line it's all for the mighty $$$ pure breeds and mutts alike and they are all to blame for overpopulation, in my case you all could say that I have a unique breed and yes I don't have info on who their ancestors were so he's a rescue dog and without offending anyone all of us should enjoy our dogs in the present.

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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Just Tap Pits said:


> *Heres my point; take ladypits "royler"(if I butchered that kick my ass lp)... he looks like a rott mix right? Simce you weren't there in theory even though he does look like a rott mix he could be a lab, St Bernard, doberman mix, with absolutely no rott in him...*
> 
> What about huskies, those smaller husky looking dogs (drawing a blank sorry fh) and wolf hybrids? All 3 could easily be comfused in and amongst themselves... but a husky is a very distinguishable breed compared to othwr breeds...


Good example JTP! According to the "papers" I got with him, the shelter had originally labeled him a Lab mix. Now, many a person has confused him with a Rottweiler mix, as did I when I first acquired him at a few months old. He was a big square fuzz ball (if you've ever seen a Rott pup, you know what I'm talking about). Now that he has aged (I estimate he'll be 3 yrs old in February), he seems to be more of a GSD mix than Rottie. Here's some examples:

Roller as a pup









His first summer with us









A little older here









And you can view my signature for a more recent picture of him.

ETA: Here's a thread I started a few weeks ago, with a fun shot of him. The thread speaks for itself, but it's a more current picture of him than my signature is.
http://www.gopitbull.com/pictures/109113-roller-got-his-tail-docked.html

Now, based on my experiences with various breeds (GSDs, Rottweilers, Labs), I'm come to the conclusion that he's a possible mix of GSD and Lab. Although the vet did initially want to label him as a Rottweiler mix as a young pup, and then as he got a little older, wanted to call him a Dobie mix! I stood firm and said "How about we just stick with the original guess and call him a lab mix?" My reason for doing so is if I ever move somewhere that is anti-"aggressive" breeds, I can say that my vet and the shelter concur that he's a lab mix. That's what he's listed as with the microchip as well.

What would venture to guess he is Sarah? His ears flop, one is kinda funky and off to the side, and they never attempted to stand. They're very thick (the leather, and the fur), and he's cow-hocked as well. He first started showing protective qualities when he was a very young pup (approximately 3 months old), and is both DA and very, very protective of the family, but when it comes to children, he knows no strangers. He's very submissive with my daughters, especially my 4 yr old daughter. Here's the kicker.... he will play tug, but will NOT fetch anything! He loves to destroy sticks, but will NOT retrieve them, balls, stuffed animals or anything else for that matter.

We call him our "Wonder Dog" because of the distinct "W" on his chest lol.


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

Thank you Heavy Jeep  I have always felt that it's much easier to have a great, informative discussion when I type a bit, wait, type some more and then re-read before I post. It gives me time to really think about how I want to say something so that a) I make myself as easy to understand as possible and b) don't say anything too hasty that could be taken the wrong way or something I will wish I hadn't said.

ThaLadyPit, I can see where you are getting the GSD from. The pattern on his chest and his nose really remind me of one. The ears almost make me think of a hound! I wonder if that's the case or if it is simply a GSD's big ears + the lab in him making them floppy. The coloring kind of makes me think of a rottie but other than that I don't see any. He's adorable


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## Sarah~ (Mar 13, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> Sarah, your responses are always good hearted and well thought out. I applaud that considering some of the company here. While it is true that certain folks should be nicer and more attentive to the ignorance of newbies and try to start from scratch with each and every one, as if they were a child, and guide them with brief responses that make the point (in this case that their dog has certain appearances that share between not only "pitbulls" but other breeds as well, and to keep from confusing themselves and the public, until a geneology can be produced, at best they have a mix-breed dog. (I ALSO DO NOT LIKE TO USE THE TERM MUTT RIGHT OFF THE BAT WITH NEWBIES) Educating them that if they start telling everyone they have a pitbull that they are putting themselves at risk of BSL and saying its a mix-breed is safer anyway in the eyes of the haters.
> Thank you for always sharing your kind thoughts and trying to make this an easier on the new people forum
> 
> Neither Sarah. Some folks want a pitbull to be cool. Some realize the benfits of the breeds emotional connection and want that partner. Telling everyone that asks that their dog looks like a pit is a mute point I think, and youre right they have a general idea or they would've joined a GSD forum (for example).
> ...


Well said!
Agree with you on all points there! 



Dreamer said:


> Agreed.
> And, think about it. It makes so-called knowledgeable people look kinda stupid when they state very emphatically that every quite Pit Bull-looking dog is a mutt! To me, that's being petty and the reason given for doing it seems petty.


I don't agree that the reason is petty, it's very true that if someone comes here and I said yes, your dog looks like a pit and all the rest but all they took away from what I said is that I agree they have a pit, the dog grows up, bites someone and becomes another BSL statistic, then I would have done more harm than good in that case. Like Heavy Jeep said EDUCATION IS KEY!

I would like to be able to tell everyone that they have a dog that resembles an APBT, but even though it's just as likely your dog is not a pit you are now a target for BSL, these are the things you need to know and the responsibilities you now have. I would like to believe everyone I told that to would listen to me and educate themselves but that is naive. That's still how I would respond in that situation, and I do think new members would respond to that better and be more LIKELY to learn, but I totally understand and acknowledge what the rest of the forum feels. I see it all the time on this forum "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" 

I don't think it makes them look stupid, a bit mean and stubborn maybe but not really stupid.



ames said:


> Thy dog need to own a mutt people would classify as a pit bull to learn about a dog breed though. Especially if hey may not even own that breed. I like learning about tons of different dog breeds. Doesn't mean I'm doing to own them all one day.
> 
> I also don't think there are many breeds with breed specific behaviors. Dog greasy on again can happen in tons of breeds.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


True Ames, can't argue with you there


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

ames said:


> Thy dog need to own a mutt people would classify as a pit bull to learn about a dog breed though. Especially if hey may not even own that breed. I like learning about tons of different dog breeds. Doesn't mean I'm doing to own them all one day.
> 
> I also don't think there are many breeds with breed specific behaviors.


Well, okay then.

Why learn about different breeds if they all pretty much act the same? Why have breeds?

According to your notion, there is no need to tell someone that there would be any difference in the behavior of say, a Greyhound vs a Pekingese if a rabbit sprung up in front of the dog on a walk (heck either one would be a good companion for an elderly person, right?); there would be essentially no difference between the behavior of a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel and a Malinois if someone broke into your house, correct? Why worry about that Jack Russell going down that fox-hole if he's going to behave the same as my English Mastiff when there is a hole around?

Do you realize how silly it sounds when you say that breeds don't have specific behaviors? Of course there are differences in the degree of a behavior in any breed, that individual Mastiff just MAY go down that hole! But in general, many breeds are going to tend to act differently from one another, depending on the situation.

I guess this tree-hugger notion of all breeds (oops, there ARE no breeds!) being the same is catching on. No breeds, no variety in behavior, all equal and deserving of the same treatment and up-bringing. Yep, don't worry...


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## Dreamer (Oct 31, 2013)

ames said:


> I also don't think there are many breeds with breed specific behaviors. Dog greasy on again can happen in tons of breeds.


Speaking specifically on the last sentence...sure, dogs are dogs -- "dog aggression" in some form -- is a characteristic of DOGS.

But, saying, "dog aggression can happen in tons of breeds", is stating the obvious and ignoring the specifics, which ARE important, in my opinion.

I happen to believe the "dog aggression" that occurs in the APBT AS A BREED, is different from the "dog aggression" the Beagle as a breed exhibits. YES, there will be Beagles that act like Pit Bulls and vice versa! But, as a BREED, in general, the APBT exhibits a kind of dog aggression that -- coupled with ability and a lot of other temperament characteristics that generally occur in the APBT breed -- is DIFFERENT from other breeds! And, if I think a dog looks a lot like an APBT, I am going to take THAT fact into consideration when, for example, I was recommending a home for the dog.

Just stating that "dog aggression can happen in tons of breeds" is sort of minimizing differences in breeds that can be important. At least I think they are important.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

HeavyJeep said:


> Ill offer you this different pedigree statistic to look at. The Statistic simply states the amount of percentage the dogs in the DNA history have predominance, while this isn't a DNA profile itself, they show the profile.
> Notice the "DNA-P" behind the names of the dogs, it indicated DNA profiled, are you still arguing that DNA shows (not the only way to tell a true purebred breed) but the strongest most legitimate 100% way to put it to rest?
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES PEDIGREE STATISTICS :: APBT 4 LIFE'S PUPS :: [307457]
> ...


Well its been like that since I joined and I had many an idiot ive made look stupid as hell since jump my ass and try to tell me "whats whats".... if they dnt like how whit is theu csn always leave.... no? I dnt see a point in hand holding now whem no1 has ever hand held here... I get some niceness being needed (which yesterday I "led by example" and posted stickies link instead of "jumping on" sum1)


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## APBTN00b (Jul 8, 2013)

This thread doesn't make much sense anymore...

I highly doubt anyone in the area I live in can point out a real APBT. When I was younger, I thought a 'pit bull' was just some over muscular dog with a big head and short hair that was used in Dog Matching. Well I was only part right. Now that I am older and spent several years researching and learning about the APBT before I even sought out a breeder and obtained my first APBT ... Which looks nothing like what I would have thought one looked liked years ago. And looking at his breeders yard, her dogs are not one particular shape or size. But have a pedigree that can go back to many older lines which shows that is what her dogs are.

*THIS* is why you cannot look at someone's dog and say 'yep thats a pit!'. My pup doesn't look anything like his daddy and looks like dogs way back in his ped. I know because being able to look at the list of dogs used to make him, I was able to find pictures and information. Not to mention being able to meet his breeder who was proud of her stock and able to sit and show me older pictures of her older dogs and tell all kinds of stories of those particular dogs.

Mix ... I HATE the word Mix, Mixed breed, Mixed heritage. To me a mixed dog is one of two different parents that are known. Mixed does not always mean Mutt. A mutt can be a pure bred dog with out papers. I don't understand why so many people are sooo against the word Mutt. It is what it is.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Sarah~ said:


> ThaLadyPit, I can see where you are getting the GSD from. The pattern on his chest and his nose really remind me of one. The ears almost make me think of a hound! I wonder if that's the case or if it is simply a GSD's big ears + the lab in him making them floppy. The coloring kind of makes me think of a rottie but other than that I don't see any. He's adorable


For all we know, he could be a mix of all of the above mentioned.... but it is fun to try and figure out. But, as we all know, we'll never be full on, 100% sure of what exactly he is. I've been asked several times by different people what type of dog he is, and I just simply state, "I don't know. He's a shelter mutt." That's the best answer I know to give, and the most honest I can be. I have especially given that answer when asked by someone that I know is up to no good. Example, I recently (a few months ago) had to evict someone from the apartments I reside in and manage. A friend that was helping them move their belongings, asked me what type of dog Roller was, as I had him and my 4 year old daughter outside (we had just finished walking him for a bathroom break), and he is very protective of my children. This person walked too close to my daughter, and Roller began growling and barking. I put him in a sit/stay by my side, and called my daughter to me in the front yard (about 10 ft away from the sidewalk in front of the apartments). The man stopped and asked, "What kind of dog is that?" I said, "I don't know, he came from the shelter." He then asked, "Well I used to have a dog that looked just like that, and was just curious what kind of dog he is. Is he a Rottweiler mix?" I responded again, "I don't know. He's just a shelter mutt." He then said, "Well, he's a beautiful dog, and does his job well, I see." I told him thank you and ended the conversation there by having my daughter give him the down command, which he does flawlessly for her! I just smiled and began talking with another tenant who was outside with us.


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## Cannon from NJ (Feb 4, 2013)

Hey JustTap, let's see a pic of your dog, it's ped, and how it lives.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

I honestly always thought APBT were 90lb+ muscular dogs with big heads thanks to the MEDIA. Boy did I have an awakening lol

This huge thick collar I got my boy looks ridiculous on him. But on a 100lb bully would look nice

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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Cannon from NJ said:


> Hey JustTap, let's see a pic of your dog, it's ped, and how it lives.


He posted his dogs a couple pages back, but I don't believe he posted a ped. Although he has posted his dogs' peds in other threads.


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Cannon from NJ said:


> Hey JustTap, let's see a pic of your dog, it's ped, and how it lives.


For what, so you can see a real dog? Sorry but I aint going to waste my time trying to "impress" bully owners....

And I wouldn't imply my dogs live in less than favorable conditions again....


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## Raiderblue (Jan 1, 2014)

Reading this stuff is a real turn off to this forum. I came here to learn about the breed, not read personal attacks and pointless debates. Listen to yourselves! Get a grip people. What's embarrassing is some of you are moderators too.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Raiderblue said:


> Reading this stuff is a real turn off to this forum. I came here to learn about the breed, not read personal attacks and pointless debates. Listen to yourselves! Get a grip people. What's embarrassing is some of you are moderators too.


Where are any moderators personally attacking anyone? It is the moderators who deleted the personal insults that were way out of line and issued warnings to keep it off the general forum.

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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> Where are any moderators personally attacking anyone? It is the moderators who deleted the personal insults that were way out of line and issued warnings to keep it off the general forum.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I saw a strong mod presence throughout the whole thread. It's not the staffs fault it went off topic and turned to crap. :hammer:


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Raider, the mods are the ones with the burgundy colored names...other colors like green, orange and yellow are VIP members, not mods. And bright red is the boss man Redog


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

This was the thread opener, wasnt anything more than a little drama bomb to begin with, so it never really got off topic:roll: just a rant by someone completely in the right and definding personal pride against prejudice. 
Its no lie there are some here very very devoted to our breed, in more ways than any of you have yet to realize, and for longer than some have even had 1 dog.
Verdugo, please know in your heart that it is not the piece of paper that makes the dog. Even every good breeder and dogperson will tell you that, and many here will. 
Some jump the gun on their opinions so much it trumps the words.. Read every single post again and there is some pretty good info hidden in the arguements lol:hammer: There are so many dogs of unknown origin of all over, mix breeds and "pure" blooded dogs alike, in need of a home. Shelters packed, craigslist packed with ads, and the problem lies in the decisions of lots of owners. People breeding two dogs with pieces of paper together. This is what most will tell you is the issue.
We here boldly support taking in a dog in need, of whatever origin, but neuter or spay your ,,,,, mutt ... We have some awesome "mutts" here..!!!

*Anyone that made it this far in the read post up your pics of your "mutts" and rescue dogs alike!!:hug:*

I will point out that some use profanity and threat and some just use good thought out words to express each others soul and emotion. 
And in the General Forum where My kids and others can read and learn without the vulgar abuse from anyone, regardless of opinion.
Keep the bashing in the Private messages or VIP...


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

DieselsMommie said:


> I honestly always thought APBT were 90lb+ muscular dogs with big heads thanks to the MEDIA. Boy did I have an awakening lol
> 
> This huge thick collar I got my boy looks ridiculous on him. But on a 100lb bully would look nice
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well, it is better to learn late than not at all. :thumbsup:


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

^^^^^^^ thats the gospel right there


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## verdugo (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm pretty sure we'll get different views. But I will follow your advice heavyjeep. Ty.

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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

Goemon said:


> Well, it is better to learn late than not at all. :thumbsup:


Can't argue with that 

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