# CHAOS HAS DEMODECTIC MANGE!!!



## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

So I bought Chaos from a breeder in Kentucky in Febuary. Well I took him to the vet yesterday because he has had hair loss all over his body. The vet said that it looked hormonal, but at the last minute before I left she asked if I minded doing a skin scraping just in case it could be mange, I of course agreed and asked if she could call me today with the results because I had a pediatric appointment I had to get to. So she called me today to let me know that the scrape was positive for demodectic mange which for those of you that don't know is hereditary. Yes, that means that Chaos will probably be getting neutered. I say probably because if it clears up I will still show him but if it doesn't then he will just be my baby boy lounging on the couch. Anyway! I contacted the breeder today by email, I am waiting to hear back from him. In his puppy contract it states that if the puppy has any hereditary defect that the purchaser can keep the pup and will be entitled to a refund of purchase price. I can of course provide veterinary documentation that he has demodectic mange and is up to date on all of his shots. Do you think the breeder was aware that one of his dogs carries demodectic mange? Do you think I am entitled to a refund? Just curious what everyone thinks. I do plan on keeping Chaos no matter what. I just want to know what I should do concerning the breeder and possibly a refund. Thanks for any input. Going to get his ivermectin from the feed store in a few!


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

All dogs carry Demodex mites. Is the hairloss all over, or is it in spots? Generalized (all over, evenly distributed) Demodex is a sign that the dog has a weak immune system, but localized (just in spots) means that the dog's immune system was temporarily weakened. Many causes of this are vaccinations, boarding, travel, schedule change, moving etc. If your dog gets stressed for some reason, it can lower the immune system so that the demodex mites can take over in a small area or areas. If it is localized, you can treat it, and show or work the dog, and if your dog does well and you want to breed, go ahead and have all the certs done, and then ask your vet his opinion, if you never have another outbreak, there is no reason that you can't breed. Also, localized Demodex that responds well to treatment will most likely not be considered a hereditary defect, as all dogs carry the mites. If it is generalized, than you probably have a case for a hereditary defect.


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## pitlover09 (May 1, 2009)

if the breeder you got your puppy from knew that your dog's parents carries demodectic mange then i think your are most definately entitled to a refund because of what he states in his puppy contract. but if he was a more responsible breeder, he should know whether or not his dogs carry demodectic mange. i got my dog from an irresponsible breeder and not even a year later i found out that my dog had mange, and the vet told me that it was hereditary. so now i hav to apply promeris between my dog's shoulder blades every month. he's great now and you cant even tell that he had mange. the thing is, is that i dont think you can tell jus from the naked eye that the parents carry demodectic mange, it's just the gene that they happen to carry. that's what makes it even worse. and once the mange clears up, people breed their dog anyway because he 'appears' fine


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

FloorCandy said:


> All dogs carry Demodex mites. Is the hairloss all over, or is it in spots? Generalized (all over, evenly distributed) Demodex is a sign that the dog has a weak immune system, but localized (just in spots) means that the dog's immune system was temporarily weakened. Many causes of this are vaccinations, boarding, travel, schedule change, moving etc. If your dog gets stressed for some reason, it can lower the immune system so that the demodex mites can take over in a small area or areas. If it is localized, you can treat it, and show or work the dog, and if your dog does well and you want to breed, go ahead and have all the certs done, and then ask your vet his opinion, if you never have another outbreak, there is no reason that you can't breed. Also, localized Demodex that responds well to treatment will most likely not be considered a hereditary defect, as all dogs carry the mites. If it is generalized, than you probably have a case for a hereditary defect.


It is all over his sides and legs. The vet told me to give him Ivermectin. To start off at .4ml and work up to .8ml by increasing the dosage by .1ml every few days and to keep him at .8ml for about 3 weeks and then to bring him back in for another scrapeing. She recomends that I never breed him as this will be passed to his offspring and that they don't usually agree to treat dogs with demodectic mange unless the owner agrees to never breed . I do know that all dogs carry demodectic mites. He has not had any changes in routine and no recent vaccinations to trigger this. He had all of his shots by the time he was old enough(16wks) so no recent shocks to the immune system.


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

cass0407 said:


> It is all over his sides and legs. The vet told me to give him Ivermectin. To start off at .4ml and work up to .8ml by increasing the dosage by .1ml every few days and to keep him at .8ml for about 3 weeks and then to bring him back in for another scrapeing. She recomends that I never breed him as this will be passed to his offspring and that they don't usually agree to treat dogs with demodectic mange unless the owner agrees to never breed . I do know that all dogs carry demodectic mites. He has not had any changes in routine and no recent vaccinations to trigger this. He had all of his shots by the time he was old enough(16wks) so no recent shocks to the immune system.


Localized demodex will appear in small areas, usually the size of coin, and can grow larger if left untreated. With the severity of the case your dog has, I would agree, that breeding is a bad idea. I'd also like to add that refusing to treat an animal, no matter what the owner's intent is unethical IMO. Would they just let the dog suffer if you refused to agree? Honestly I would look into another vet, with the severity of the hairloss, it worries me that demodex was an afterthought to the vet, and he nearly let you leave without scraping.


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

FloorCandy said:


> Localized demodex will appear in small areas, usually the size of coin, and can grow larger if left untreated. With the severity of the case your dog has, I would agree, that breeding is a bad idea. I'd also like to add that refusing to treat an animal, no matter what the owner's intent is unethical IMO. Would they just let the dog suffer if you refused to agree? Honestly I would look into another vet, with the severity of the hairloss, it worries me that demodex was an afterthought to the vet, and he nearly let you leave without scraping.


I don't think it is her policy because she didn't make me agree to anything I think maybe it is what the owners of the place do. Yes, she did almost let me leave without a skin scraping only because he has no sore only hairloss which led her to believe it was hormonal. I have never had a bad experience with this particular vet before and she always gives me free samples and cuts me discounts because I bring all of my dogs to her specifically. However I understand your concern. So do you think that in this case I should seek a refund from the breeder or could he not have known that his one of his dogs carries this?


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

cass0407 said:


> I don't think it is her policy because she didn't make me agree to anything I think maybe it is what the owners of the place do. Yes, she did almost let me leave without a skin scraping only because he has no sore only hairloss which led her to believe it was hormonal. I have never had a bad experience with this particular vet before and she always gives me free samples and cuts me discounts because I bring all of my dogs to her specifically. However I understand your concern. So do you think that in this case I should seek a refund from the breeder or could he not have known that his one of his dogs carries this?


It's a tough call. He may not know, and if he didn't, and he's a good guy, he will give you a refund, or partial one if that's what's in the contract. But if he knew and is a scumbag, you will have a tough time getting money from him, because Demodex mites are present on all dogs, and he could try to say you cared for him wrong, it will be a he said/she said.


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## smith family kennels (Jan 10, 2009)

yes you will have a hard time. I did a breeding a few years back and had one puppy which happened to be the puppy I kept thank goodness that has it. Neither one of the parents had it. Its going to be hard to prove. And also to this day I still have to treat her sensitive skin


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

smith family kennels said:


> yes you will have a hard time. I did a breeding a few years back and had one puppy which happened to be the puppy I kept thank goodness that has it. Neither one of the parents had it. Its going to be hard to prove. And also to this day I still have to treat her sensitive skin


I hear generalized is hard to get a 100% recovery, my aunt had an akita that had demodex and the hair never grew back. She was nearly bald with a few whispy pube looking hairs all over for her entire life. But she was happy and healthy, just bald. They bought a lot of dog clothes lol.


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

Thanks for the input! I will let you know when I hear back from the guy. He currently has a litter of pups and another litter on the way that is sired by the same male as my pup so I hope that he is not the carrier!


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

FloorCandy said:


> I hear generalized is hard to get a 100% recovery, my aunt had an akita that had demodex and the hair never grew back. She was nearly bald with a few whispy pube looking hairs all over for her entire life. But she was happy and healthy, just bald. They bought a lot of dog clothes lol.


My dogs was generalized and she still has a pretty bald head basically peach fuzz and pretty shaved legs. There is a product called Nu-Stock that really helps with hair regrowth. I'm going to apply it again after she recovers from her recent acl tear.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I will say thins again...... it may not be hereditary if there was another unlined issue that caused the immune system to drop. People go on S/N trips for no justified reasons sometimes. Stress can be a huge factor, It's good you contacted the breeder she will know for sure but don't be so positive it came from the parents.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

IMO you let that go way too far before you went to the vet, if caught early you can avoid it spreading all over in most cases.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Helena's mange started around 6 weeks, was full fledged by 3 months and the vet told me I couldn't dip her til 4 months. When the dip made her sick.. someone finally told me about ivermectin.


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> IMO you let that go way too far before you went to the vet, if caught early you can avoid it spreading all over in most cases.


Actually he had hairloss maybe a week-a week and a half before I could get him to the vet. The only reason it took that long is cause I have had car trouble (transmission) and had to wait for a day I could catch someone off of work so that I could use their car.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I have never seen hair-loss that quickly from mange and I have been in the dogs in a long time. You may have mange and a hormone issue. Did your vet do a blood work up? You may have other issues going on with your dog that caused his immune system to drop, them he got mange. I am all about not spending money on worthless tests that vets say you have to have just to get your money. This case I would do a full work up you have something else that is wrong with your dog. Mange does not do that in 1 week I would guess thyroid or a hormonal issue. If you do not find out what caused the hair-loss his immune system may stay weak and the mange will get worse along with what ever else is going on. Maybe I need to reread the thread but did the vet do other tests?


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> I have never seen hair-loss that quickly from mange and I have been in the dogs in a long time. You may have mange and a hormone issue. Did your vet do a blood work up? You may have other issues going on with your dog that caused his immune system to drop, them he got mange. I am all about not spending money on worthless tests that vets say you have to have just to get your money. This case I would do a full work up you have something else that is wrong with your dog. Mange does not do that in 1 week I would guess thyroid or a hormonal issue. If you do not find out what caused the hair-loss his immune system may stay weak and the mange will get worse along with what ever else is going on. Maybe I need to reread the thread but did the vet do other tests?


No, there have been no other test yet. She wants to see if the mange clears up from the ivermectin. He is also on Cephalexin for what exactly I'm not sure! I am going to call up there early tomorrow to find out if he still needs to be on it and what it is suppose to treat. I believe she said something about dogs with skin issues having underlying problems. I still haven't heard back from the breeder and it's been almost 24 hrs since i sent him an email. I know he has got to be checking it reguarly because he has 3-4litters on the ground right now. Needless to say I won't be buying any other dogs from him in the future! When I bought Chaos he was reasonably priced but now it seems he is out for money with dogs selling for 4000! Is there any kind of test that can be performed to know if this is hereditary or caused by something that he already had going on?


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Don't expect a refund. I would never offer a refund for mange. Instead, I would foot the bill for the treatment as the breeder after having written documentation from 2 different vet offices with the diagnosis including the cause of the illness... if it's proven to be hereditary i would then immediately alter both parents. When you get these "rare" colored dogs they are generally followed with tons of health issues.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

NEELA said:


> Don't expect a refund. I would never offer a refund for mange. Instead, I would foot the bill for the treatment as the breeder after having written documentation from 2 different vet offices with the diagnosis including the cause of the illness... if it's proven to be hereditary i would then immediately alter both parents. When you get these "rare" colored dogs they are generally followed with tons of health issues.


:goodpost:


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

Shes Got Heart said:


> My dogs was generalized and she still has a pretty bald head basically peach fuzz and pretty shaved legs. There is a product called Nu-Stock that really helps with hair regrowth. I'm going to apply it again after she recovers from her recent acl tear.


Have you tried Calm Coat? I hear wonderful things about it. I plan to order some for my EB because of his SFA. I know many EB owners who swear by it.


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## KB24MVP (Mar 2, 2009)

my pit had demodex also. I did the borax thing and it worked great. cost 8 bucks


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

*demodex*

there is a LOT OF INFO on this site about demodex. Do a search of it and you will find tons and tons!!! Good luck!~


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

cass0407 said:


> No, there have been no other test yet. She wants to see if the mange clears up from the ivermectin. He is also on Cephalexin for what exactly I'm not sure! I am going to call up there early tomorrow to find out if he still needs to be on it and what it is suppose to treat. I believe she said something about dogs with skin issues having underlying problems. I still haven't heard back from the breeder and it's been almost 24 hrs since i sent him an email. I know he has got to be checking it reguarly because he has 3-4litters on the ground right now. Needless to say I won't be buying any other dogs from him in the future! When I bought Chaos he was reasonably priced but now it seems he is out for money with dogs selling for 4000! Is there any kind of test that can be performed to know if this is hereditary or caused by something that he already had going on?


Again with hairloss like that you have something else going on. the Cephalexian is for the skin infection that follows mange. All the scratching will cause a skin infection and the antibiotics are for that.
You need to do a blood panel to see what is really going on with your dog. How old is he? There is no test for mange and as a breeder I would not give you money back either. Because you do not lose hair like that in one week without you having something else going on. It may or may not be related to health. Unless you have health guarantee you have to understand not everything is the breeders fault. Things can develop that are beyond a breeders control. Now if it was something like HD then you would have a case against the breeder. Call your vet and see if he will do more tests, do not wait because Ivermectin takes weeks to cure mange and again you have something else going on. If the vet doesn't want to test him, then find another vet, he should have caught that in the first place.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

The staph infections are the most evil thing about demo mange.


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Again with hairloss like that you have something else going on. the Cephalexian is for the skin infection that follows mange. All the scratching will cause a skin infection and the antibiotics are for that.
> You need to do a blood panel to see what is really going on with your dog. How old is he? There is no test for mange and as a breeder I would not give you money back either. Because you do not lose hair like that in one week without you having something else going on. It may or may not be related to health. Unless you have health guarantee you have to understand not everything is the breeders fault. Things can develop that are beyond a breeders control. Now if it was something like HD then you would have a case against the breeder. Call your vet and see if he will do more tests, do not wait because Ivermectin takes weeks to cure mange and again you have something else going on. If the vet doesn't want to test him, then find another vet, he should have caught that in the first place.


Okay thanks I will call and get him in soon. He was born Feb. 7 so he is only 5months old. I understand that not everything is the breeders fault, but he is starting to look rather guilty by not answering my emails. It has been 48 hrs since I contacted him and he has yet to contact me back.


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

my pup has the same thing yours has just not as bad im doin the borax to just started today i got a mange kit in the mail from botanical dog has any one tried it


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

The breeder sounds pretty irresponsible to me, don't expect much help. I wouldn't.


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

Okay, so I still haven't heard back from the breeder and I don't expect to. I guess I just wanted him to say something back to me or want to know how Chaos was recovering. I know I would if someone contacted me and had a health problem with a pup they got from me. Chaos has been on his Ivermectin since Thursday and seems to be doing well. I am planning to take him into the vet as soon as I can to have blood test done to see if maybe he has something else going on that caused the mange. Hopefully all of his hair comes back and he doesn't have bald patches all over the place. I have had one other dog with demodectic mange before and she made a full recovery, she was a lab. I will keep you guys posted if it's found that there was an underlying cause. Hopefully I will have some pics in the future of Chaos with all of his hair!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Try Nustock to get the hair to grow back. You can also give benadryl to help with the itching. The mange will release histamine in the system from scratching and make it worse.


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> Try Nustock to get the hair to grow back. You can also give benadryl to help with the itching. The mange will release histamine in the system from scratching and make it worse.


Thanks I will try it. Can't hurt right?!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

It is great for getting the hair to grow back, and it treats mange. I use it on many skin issues and to get hair back on my show dogs.


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

*Update!*

So just wanted to give an update on Chaos and see what everyone thought. He has been on his Ivermectin treatment for exactly 2 weeks today and I just got him up to the target dosage that the vet wants 2 days ago. I have also switched all the dogs food over, they are now eating grain free. Also, I have been giving him fish oil. Chaos looks so much better alot of hair has already come back on his sides, but he still has spots of missing fur all over his neck and chest. I don't know what it is that is making him come back to normal so quickly, but I don't plan on changing anything! Does anyone think it could have been his food he was on?


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

so far so good, looking like a nice recovery so far


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

he looks a ton better! it can turn around that quick with mange. I see it all the time. Since he had a skin scrapping with Demodex then that is what caused the hairless. No way to tell for sure if the food helped but it might have. That is why I always say treat one thing at a time so you know what makes them really improve. Good job and thanks for the update.


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## gxkon (Jul 13, 2009)

man he looks better i hope my dog gets better like that


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

I agree with Lisa, if there was a positive demodex scrape, than the mites were present. Now you could have a food allergy and mange, but since you switched food, and treated the mange, there's no way to know. But all in all she is having a fantastic recovery. Congrats!


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## cass0407 (May 22, 2009)

Thank you all for your replies. I am so happy that he is getting better. I hadn't planned on doing everything at once it just kinda happened that way. I know for sure though that I will never go back to the other dog food I was using just to find out if it was a food allergy. I had planned on switching dog foods before he was even diagnosed. I will put some more pics up in the future, hopefully he will have all of his hair back then.


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