# Best type of Bullie or Pittie for multi-dog home?



## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

This is for future reference and for anyone else interested.

But I was wondering, since pitbull type dog breeds and some bully breeds(I don't remember which) are known for dog aggression. I was just curious, if there were any pittie type breeds or bully breeds that have less tendency to have dog aggression? I plan on having at least 2-3 dogs in my house as long as I live.lol. 

I know no matter the breed, their is a chance of having some aggression. I like the looks of APBTs and ASTs. I was reading a thread on here about how a bloodline or breed was having the dog aggression bred out of it. I am just curious which bloodline or breed would have a lesser chance of being dog aggressive? Also would it be better to get a dog from a good breeder or go with a rescue(I may just go with rescue) and go with a Pitbull Mix(Whats with Pitbull/Lab mix anyways? I see them alot, just curious what people are trying to accomplish by breeding these 2 breeds.) 

I have seen pitties and bullies get along well with other breeds just fine, so I would like to know what is best.

Anyways, I am using this as future reference. Any advice and information is appreciated. 

Thanks!


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

(ABKC) Bully's have been breed to be non-agressive, but there is still always that chance with any type of pitbull. Bullys are the ones you are referring to though.

Are you looking for anything in particular? Theres plenty of bully rescues, ABKC even has a new class to show your bully rescue. Its a Save-a-bull class.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

What is ABKC?

I would mostly want a companion, I will do obedience, rally and have the dog become a therapy dog(remember future reference. I can't own a "pitbull" right now because of my family's insurance.). What type of bully breeds would be best?


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> What is ABKC?
> 
> I would mostly want a companion, I will do obedience, rally and have the dog become a therapy dog(remember future reference. I can't own a "pitbull" right now because of my family's insurance.). What type of bully breeds would be best?


ABKC (American Bully Kennel Club) They are pitbulls breed to be shorter, wider, muscular, blocked head pieces. Bullys usually consist of American Staff(AKC) breed with APBT(UKC) or in some cases American Bulldogs.
The American Bully Registry

Most of the ABKC dogs are dual registered with UKC

AKC, UKC, & ABKC are different dog registries. You might say what the importance to them is, well its very significant. Breeders breed to the standard of the Registry. For instance, ABKC has their bully standards different than the AKC. The AKC AM Staffs, usually are only permitted to have black noses, or certain type of body type.

In one case, an owner was told he couldnt have pitbulls, but took the county to court, and proved his dogs were american bullys. He was allowed to keep them. I think it was in Florida. not sure.










We have a bully section, you might want to check out, and get a general impression. I will be happy to guide you to what bully suits you, as there a wide variety of bloodlines, distinctions, and classes.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Bully's are touted as being less dog aggressive, thought the ones I run across while doing shot fairs sure haven't gotten the memo. We have more issues with them (mostly because they are heavier and bigger, all seem to be on harnesses and many of the owners seem to be oblivious to that fact their dog is serious about getting at the dog next to him in line and not 'posturing') Luckily, most of the ones I see are pretty overweight and tire quickly, so after being in line for an hour (if they aren't removed to the 'quiet area') are pretty wiped out.
Point being, getting a bully is no guarantee, nor is getting a dog from otherwise 'cold' lines, though research into how the dog is bred can help stack the odds.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

I suggest you attend an ABKC show. 95% of the bullies there are well behaved, and show little to no agression towards others. Not to mention there is a little over 50 dogs there on leashes.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

I'm just talking the dogs you run into out and about. Generally speaking, dogs used to attending shows tend to act less like asses, lol. (I attend a lot of shows and have been to a bully show too)


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

oh...lol... your typical teenagers or thugsters walking around, i hate those too.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Is there a place that lists all the Bully breeds?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Theres no type of "Pit Bull", theres only one and thats the American Pit Bull Terrier.. If you are a novice, which i can see you are based on your questions alone, the best breed IMO if you are attempting a multiple "bulldog" home would be either the American Bully or the Staffordshire Bull Terrier..

The American Bully is the only "type" of Bully, while DA does run through AmBullies in general, its less "extreme" or "intense" as the APBT and a huge difference is lack of drive associated with DA.. There will never be a "game American Bully" as that is not the purpose instilled in those dogs, rather its companionship and show qualities.

Any of the breeds with pit fighting in the history has the potential of being DA however one of the most common is of course the APBT as pit fighting is still going on legally and illegally around the world.. It was the purpose of the breed (in modern form) and unlike other breeds, still thrives.

Naturally, if you are inexperienced youd only be setting yourself up for disaster... And for your dogs to fail.. Even the most experienced have occasional accidental yard fights.. For a novice, its only ten fold..

You also have to ask yourself why you want another dog and why an APBT.. If you are not working them (legally) than whats the point in owning a world class worker? If you are looking for companionship above all, rescue a mutt or go with a breed designed to be just that.. An AmBully.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> Theres no type of "Pit Bull", theres only one and thats the American Pit Bull Terrier.. If you are a novice, which i can see you are based on your questions alone, the best breed IMO if you are attempting a multiple "bulldog" home would be either the American Bully or the Staffordshire Bull Terrier..
> 
> The American Bully is the only "type" of Bully, while DA does run through AmBullies in general, its less "extreme" or "intense" as the APBT and a huge difference is lack of drive associated with DA.. There will never be a "game American Bully" as that is not the purpose instilled in those dogs, rather its companionship and show qualities.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Best type of Bullie or Pittie for multi-dog home? 

FOR THE AVERAGE OWNER JUST WANTING A COMPANION FOR THEIR DOG.. ANSWER -- NONE


Get a lab..


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Theres no type of "Pit Bull", theres only one and thats the American Pit Bull Terrier.. If you are a novice, which i can see you are based on your questions alone, the best breed IMO if you are attempting a multiple "bulldog" home would be either the American Bully or the Staffordshire Bull Terrier..
> 
> The American Bully is the only "type" of Bully, while DA does run through AmBullies in general, its less "extreme" or "intense" as the APBT and a huge difference is lack of drive associated with DA.. There will never be a "game American Bully" as that is not the purpose instilled in those dogs, rather its companionship and show qualities.
> 
> ...


Actually I know there is not a type of "pitbull" as I volunteer for a rescue and shelter see many dogs that the general public would consider a "pitbull", yet I know they are just bully mixes of some sort. I don't think any are purebred APBTs. Sorry if I worded that wrong, but I do know that "pitbull" is not the correct term.

Also I don't expect to have a completely dog aggression free home, as I would expect some aggression. I have read up a bit on APBTs and realized they weren't for me, as I said I liked the looks of them, And also I would put my dogs in dog sports like agility, obedience, rally, and get them to be therapy dogs and also go out to play and good walks and exercise.. Of course its not really "work", but they won't be stuck at home all the time. I wouldn't just have only "bully" dog home I would have different breeds. But no more than 2 dogs. I have met and known of dogs going into homes with other dogs of other breeds.

Also, before I would get these dogs I would read up as much as I can. I like the more agile and slender build of the APBT because of the fact I want to do agility with them and other dog sports. Also, I would most definitely consider going with a rescue.

But thank you for the information, very insightful and helpful. I will defiantly look into American Bulldogs. I read they are known to be very dominate. Is this true? Just curious how and what they really mean by it.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

HeavyJeep said:


> Best type of Bullie or Pittie for multi-dog home?
> 
> FOR THE AVERAGE OWNER JUST WANTING A COMPANION FOR THEIR DOG.. ANSWER -- NONE
> 
> Get a lab..


I would have to disagree with this. I have seen people who own pitties or bullies with other dogs and have no problems. I have seen someone adopt out a "pit mix" who already had a doberman at home. I have seen a woman with her "pit mix" or APBT and Jack Russell Terrier. So yes, I would think there are exceptions to the rule. I also wouldn't say a Lab is a better choice, as I have seen some Labs that don't like other dogs.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> ABKC (American Bully Kennel Club) They are pitbulls breed to be shorter, wider, muscular, blocked head pieces. Bullys usually consist of American Staff(AKC) breed with APBT(UKC) or in some cases American Bulldogs.
> The American Bully Registry
> 
> Most of the ABKC dogs are dual registered with UKC
> ...


I won't be getting another dog for a while. My family's insurance won't allow us to own "pitbulls", and I have no idea what they would consider a "pitbull".

Are there more athletic type of bullies? I guess a American Bulldog is actually best for me.

I would think an American Bulldog would be excluded from breed restrictions, but I highly doubt so as the incident you described. But it sucks :/ How did he prove they were American Bullies?(Do you mean American Bulldogs?)


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

No, they are a American Bullies by definition of ABKC, American Bully Kennel Club.
http://theabkcdogs.org/breeds/american-bully/standard/

DISQUALIFICATIONS
Displaying or possessing aggressive behavior towards humans

Theyre athletic just like any other dog that gets exercised daily.

I dont want to be an A-hole, but it seems to me as your asking for information about something irrelevant.

If you get a shelter dog, that is mixed, it can be much more aggressive than a purebred APBT. Why you say? The dogs genes are compiled of many other dogs, these other dogs can be guard dogs, GS, ROTT, HUSKY, or CHOW. The dogs i just mentioned have much more aggression towards humans than an APBT just an FYI.

When you say this dog is not for you, but yet you have a K9, the size of a horse, that is breed specifically to be a man stopper. Sorry that is irrelevant to me.

Insurance doesnt mean nothing because your insurance has already been violated by you owning the GS. DA can be avoided by proper training, and crating.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> No, they are a American Bullies by definition of ABKC, American Bully Kennel Club.
> http://theabkcdogs.org/breeds/american-bully/standard/
> 
> DISQUALIFICATIONS
> ...


I found your post rather rude, insulting, and offensive.

What I am asking is not irrelevant.
I don't know where you got the idea of me saying anything about human aggression. I am talking about dog aggression in this thread. I know APBTs and other bully breeds are NOT supposed to show human aggression. So I don't know where you are getting the idea I brought up human aggression at all.

Also, that part I bolded can't be farther from the truth. As someone who volunteers at a rescue and shelter and owns 2 GSDs and one that is from a shelter, shelter dogs are NOT more aggressive. Also GSDs are NOT known to be more human aggressive, yes aloof, but NOT human aggressive, that is NOT a trait in GSDs. Neither are Huskies nor Rotties.Huskies make HORRIBLE guard dogs, and are NOT supposed to be human aggressive. Rotties have a guard dog history yes, but I don't think they are bred or known for human aggression.I have known and met both. That is also false. Please go learn those breeds before spreading misinformation. As someone who talks to other people who own GSDs, and breeders of GSDs(responsible breeders) they will not say those things.My GSDs are NOT aggressive towards humans, especially my shelter dog, whom I care about very much and are NOT aggressive at all. GSDs are supposed to be aloof. So yes in a way I found your post as an attack on my dogs, which I don't take very lightly.

Now for the seconded bolded part. My dogs are NOT the size of horses.How rude! GSDs are supposed to be a MEDIUM sized breed of dog. I have yet to meet a GSD the size of a horse.And also GSDs were NOT bred to be man stoppers. Yes they are used in police and military, but they were NOT bred to be just that. They were bred to be a all-around sound working dog that is also a great companion. Please go learn about the breed before spreading false information.

Also, my family is NOT violating our insurance at all. We are allowed to GSDs. We just can't own Dobermans, Rottweilers, or "Pitbulls".We asked before we got our first GSD if we were able to have one and they said yes as long as it wan't a Doberman, Rottweiler or "Pitbull". Do NOT go and start saying things I did not say. DA can avoided by prorper training yes, but crate training I would say that depends on the dog. But I believe in some cases it is genetics. Also I did NOT say this breed wasn't for me, I said APBTs. I did NOT say American Bulldogs, nor other bullies. I was only saying APBTs weren't for me.

Sorry if I sound really offended, thats because I am, or sound harsh(I don't mean to be.). I am just trying to learn more about a breed that I am passionate about, and I get my other favorite breed basically degraded(GSDs are on the BSL hitlist too). I may come off as little hard to understand of what I want. I know APBTs, and bully breeds are known to be DA and it shouldn't be a surprised. I am pretty much trying to find the best bully breed is for me, basically a general idea of what I want for when I do get a dog that is of this kind. This is for future reference as I said in first post, I am NOT getting a dog right now for a while(and that goes for ANY dog). I would love to get a bully breed dog in the future. I am trying to learn all I can right now.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> I would have to disagree with this. I have seen people who own pitties or bullies with other dogs and have no problems. I have seen someone adopt out a "pit mix" who already had a doberman at home. I have seen a woman with her "pit mix" or APBT and Jack Russell Terrier. So yes, I would think there are exceptions to the rule. I also wouldn't say a Lab is a better choice, as I have seen some Labs that don't like other dogs.


K9Jessie...(not being rude but) before you start responding to the more educated pit bull owners on this forum I would go through the old threads and stickies to further educate yourself. KMdogs and Heavyjeep are both extremely educated and have owned pit bulls for years as well as many others on this forum. Pit bulls or "pitties" as you put it are not for anyone and everyone. Pit bull mixes can still be highly DA and shelters should be more willing to educate and show concern if the person already owns another dog. DA can show up at anytime and this breed should never be left unattended with other dogs when the owner isn't home. I'm sure you think pit bull breeds are okay to go to dog parks to? Sure there can be exceptions that pit bulls or mixes will never show DA but it's not something that should be overlooked. You can't change the genetics of this breed and what they were bred to do. Pure APBT's are fighting dogs and though you can manage DA it can't be trained out of them. Any dog can be DA but you can't ignore the pit bulls genetic makeup. I've seen lots of DA breeds pure and mixed


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Bull breeds are hard to have in multi dog homes. Even the American bulldog would be hard to own with the GSD. Bulldogs are bred and have been for hundreds of years to be a fighting dog with no quit. It is possible to do as long as you know that you must be very careful. I have four dogs one amstaff APBT cross two APBT and one bully. The thing you have to remember is no matter how well the get along things can get bad fast. so never get complacent. 

American bulldogs are a powerful dog so just be careful when rescuing one. And be very picky. I know a great number of people who work these dogs in protection sports, and even personal protection, so selective breeding can produce HA dogs to a degree.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

FYI many bully breeds similar to APBTs are also issues on insurance. Is suggest you research that first with your family if you haven't. I'd you want a calmer, laid back dog who gets along with everything, I would suggest looking at adult rescues or adults being placed by responsible breeders who have those qualities no matter which breed.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> K9Jessie...(not being rude but) before you start responding to the more educated pit bull owners on this forum I would go through the old threads and stickies to further educate yourself. KMdogs and Heavyjeep are both extremely educated and have owned pit bulls for years as well as many others on this forum. Pit bulls or "pitties" as you put it are not for anyone and everyone. Pit bull mixes can still be highly DA and shelters should be more willing to educate and show concern if the person already owns another dog. DA can show up at anytime and this breed should never be left unattended with other dogs when the owner isn't home. I'm sure you think pit bull breeds are okay to go to dog parks to? Sure there can be exceptions that pit bulls or mixes will never show DA but it's not something that should be overlooked. You can't change the genetics of this breed and what they were bred to do. Pure APBT's are fighting dogs and though you can manage DA it can't be trained out of them. Any dog can be DA but you can't ignore the pit bulls genetic makeup. I've seen lots of DA breeds pure and mixed


Like I said I liked KM's post it was bit more informative, than just "Get a Lab". I respect their experience and knowledge. I put "Pit Mix" as that was what the dog was called, and IMO, its a general term and majority of the general public doesn't know about APBTs and other bully breeds, and also that is why I put Mix in it. And most of the dogs I have met and seens are more bully mixes than anything else.

I know Pitbulls and dogs of the like are NOT for everyone, and shouldn't be. There is not a one breed that is a "One size fits all". Yes, I believe shelters should be more open to educating. As a shelter volunteer, if someone asks me about a dog that looks to be a "pitbull" of some sort then or asks about "pitbulls" in general, then I tell them that they need to be aware that Pitbulls are known to be dog aggressive and tell them they need to be more educated about the breed. I tell that to anyone who asks about a certain breed. My shelter actually advises its volunteer and staff to become knowledgable about dog breeds. So anyone who comes to me and asks about getting a "pitbull" I always advise them about the DA in them especially if they have another dog in the household. Before the shelter I volunteer for adopts out a dog they want the family to bring in all pets they have at home such as other dogs to meet the dog they want to adopt. Its part of the adoption for all the dogs.

Do I think pitbull breeds should be allowed at dog parks? I don't know as I would think that would depend in each dog. I used to take my dogs to dog park and they played other dogs that were "pitbulls" and had no issues, but they were probably the exception. But allowing pitbull breeds in dog parks I think should depend on the dog, because not all dogs are the same.

Like I said, I am aware of pitbull breeds beign DA. I know they are and won't overlook it. Yes, I have met and scene pitbull breeds that were dog aggressive that have come through my shelter. I am not denying their genetics, and accept the fact that pitbull breeds come with it. I am here to learn more about it so when I plan on owning a dog from a bully breed, I can learn to manage and be responsible about it.

I have also seen both DA and non-DA. But I will say that the non-DA ones are the ones you see for sale on craigslist or poorly bred ones from BYBs.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Rudy4747 said:


> Bull breeds are hard to have in multi dog homes. Even the American bulldog would be hard to own with the GSD. Bulldogs are bred and have been for hundreds of years to be a fighting dog with no quit. It is possible to do as long as you know that you must be very careful. I have four dogs one amstaff APBT cross two APBT and one bully. The thing you have to remember is no matter how well the get along things can get bad fast. so never get complacent.
> 
> American bulldogs are a powerful dog so just be careful when rescuing one. And be very picky. I know a great number of people who work these dogs in protection sports, and even personal protection, so selective breeding can produce HA dogs to a degree.


I think I am probably getting confused between the American Bulldog and the American Bully.lol!

I know someone on the GSD forum I am on has a APBT that she uses in Schutzhund. I thought it was pretty cool to see that as I have never heard of a one doing Sch. I would say Sch proves a dog has stable temperament, that is why many responsible GSD breeders title their dogs in these sports.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

K9Jessie said:


> *I won't be getting another dog for a while. My family's insurance won't allow us to own "pitbulls", and I have no idea what they would consider a "pitbull".*Are there more athletic type of bullies? I guess a American Bulldog is actually best for me.
> 
> I would think an American Bulldog would be excluded from breed restrictions, but I highly doubt so as the incident you described. But it sucks :/ How did he prove they were American Bullies?(Do you mean American Bulldogs?)





Patch-O-Pits said:


> *FYI many bully breeds similar to APBTs are also issues on insurance. Is suggest you research that first with your family if you haven't.*_* I'd you want a calmer, laid back dog who gets along with everything, I would suggest looking at adult rescues or adults being placed by responsible breeders who have those qualities no matter which breed.*_


I stated this many times and want to clarify this. I am sincerely not trying to be rude. But I will NOT be getting a dog anytime soon, particularly a "pitbull" breed dog or a bully breed dog as my insurance won't allow my family and I(I am a college student who lives at home) to own the following breeds: Dobermans, Rottweilers, or Pitbulls. I don't know what our insurance would classify as a pibtull, so for that reason, I will NOT be getting a dog that is a "pitbull" or any bully breed until I move out and on my own with my own insurance as I am aware of the issues insruances have with these dogs.

As for the second part: I would expect, rescue or not, a dog who is a "pibtull mix" or of a bully breed, to be DA. I will most definately look at rescues and adults being placed by repsonsible breeders.

I am just curious what insurances do you(general you) guys have? I guess that would be a whole new thread on its own.lol


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

Does your home owners insurance only deny pit bulls? What state are you in? Most insurance companies discriminate against all the breeds your mentioning. GSDs are on the top part of my home owners insurance list as well as pits, rotties, american bulldogs, Huskys, boxers, and many more breeds. Seeing as how GSDs have been the #1 biters for years its hard to believe that many insurance companies are even okay with them. Just curious..... we got hell from ours with my last GSD.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Does your home owners insurance only deny pit bulls? What state are you in? Most insurance companies discriminate against all the breeds your mentioning. GSDs are on the top part of my home owners insurance list as well as pits, rotties, american bulldogs, Huskys, boxers, and many more breeds. Seeing as how GSDs have been the #1 biters for years its hard to believe that many insurance companies are even okay with them. Just curious..... we got hell from ours with my last GSD.


They deny Dobermans, Rottweilers and Pitbulls. I have no idea what the insurance classifies a pitbull, and usually what they classify as a Pibtull is pretty vague and not accurate. I am in California. And we asked before we got out first GSD, and they said NO GSDs are NOT on their list of banned breeds.

I have talked to other GSD owners and they are allowed to have them, but they all different insurances. I believe it depends on the state. We haven't gotten any hell or quirks, the insurance guy even met our dog sometime after we asked, and he said we are lucky we don't a Doberman, Rottie or Pitbull. We still have our insurace. Our dogs are vaccinated, licensed, NOT aggressive, and haven't bitten anyone.

I agree GSDs are on the top of the list, but we haven't had issues with our insurance. About 2 years ago we had a proposed ban in the city of LA that included GSDs, Rotties, Pitbulls, Dobermans, Huskies, Malamutes, Akitas, Wolf dogs and few more.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

The attitude portion of this reminds me a great deal of when i first joined.. Everyone thought i was an asshole, came off as a know it all, etc.. A great deal of this was because people didn't know me and im straight forward. Now, many still hate me but thats not really what i'm getting at.. LOL

I think youve come here to soak in all the knowledge you can, i think you mean well and you are willing to learn.. You have decent sense but it also seems perhaps misguided to a degree.. This could be the way you explain things or this could be just fact and you may not know it yet.

As to the breed of dog you may want to look at.. Given all that has been discussed it is too early, in my opinion to make that call.. If you are looking for an APBT, in "purest" form i will tell you no.. You need guidance, a local mentor from a proper breeder.. Many here will tell you to go to some ADBA shows, which is fine IF thats what you may be into. Generally speaking, most that go to shows are in it FOR the shows.. Not the working aspect, this is not ALWAYS the case but the overwhelming majority i'd say is true. Given that the APBT is bred to function and ability vs ability to win trophies, its best to find someone that can guide you by the name of the hound..

I shun anyone new to the world of pit dogs because the truth is very few have use for a high drive bulldog.. Attempt to play with fire too soon before being educated you will get burned.. 

You should research ALL these breeds (and even more, don't limit possibilities) to find your next dog to be a perfect match for your needs, wants as well as suitable uses. Often, people think they want an APBT when in fact, they do not.. You sound eager, which is great.. Take a step back and be willing to accept what you think you know may not prove to be truth, sometimes you must erase the bullshit and start over..


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

KMdogs said:


> The attitude portion of this reminds me a great deal of when i first joined.. Everyone thought i was an asshole, came off as a know it all, etc.. A great deal of this was because people didn't know me and im straight forward. Now, many still hate me but thats not really what i'm getting at.. LOL
> 
> I think youve come here to soak in all the knowledge you can, i think you mean well and you are willing to learn.. You have decent sense but it also seems perhaps misguided to a degree.. This could be the way you explain things or this could be just fact and you may not know it yet.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::thumbsup::goodpost:


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

:goodpost: very well put KM! She has definitely come to the right place to soak up knowledge of this breed!


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> The attitude portion of this reminds me a great deal of when i first joined.. Everyone thought i was an asshole, came off as a know it all, etc.. A great deal of this was because people didn't know me and im straight forward. Now, many still hate me but thats not really what i'm getting at.. LOL
> 
> I think youve come here to soak in all the knowledge you can, i think you mean well and you are willing to learn.. You have decent sense but it also seems perhaps misguided to a degree.. This could be the way you explain things or this could be just fact and you may not know it yet.
> 
> ...


Ye, I tend to sound like it but don't mean to. I think it is rather difficult to convey how we say thing over the internet.lol.

I don't know everything I wish to know about pitbulls and the breeds of the like. That is why I came here.  I will always keep learning. I may get some things mixed up or things I didn't see before. Nothing wrong with that.

I have a soft spot for the "pitbull mixes" or bully like dogs at my shelter that been misunderstood with all the hysteria and hate towards these dogs.

I don't know if I want a APBT. They are very nice looking and beautiful, but I am not sure. I have tons of time to look into them. I will keep reading.I am looking into all the bully breeds and APBT. It won't be a while until I get another dog of any kind.

This post is very helpful, its pretty much what I was thinking. Thank you.:goodpost:


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

As far as insurance goes. HO policies will differ from state to state as per what dogs are on the "bad dog" list. There is however one insurance company that is federally regulated and will insure your home regardless of breed because it excludes dog bites. That is Citizens Insurance. That is who I am insured with. It would be a very hard fight for me to try and disprove that Ecko is not a Pit Bull. So I just go with the flow in this case. (I am a licensed 220 agent in FL)
K9Jessie, I would really recommend that you be settled down in a permamnent home that you own before considering even adopting a pit type rescue dog. There aren't very many places that will allow them in this day and age. So you would be better off waiting until you have bought your first home. That's what I did. I also started with a rescue to get my feet wet. I try to attend at least one show per year to see what's out there. And when Ecko is old and grey and possibly crossed the rainbow bridge I may dable in something more pure and possibly get into the show aspect of owning a papered dog. 

I have a friend, she has an American Bulldog. He weighs 70 lbs at 1 year old. She has after a year of searching, finally found a place to live with him. Can you imagine if that had been a "pit". 

There are so many educated people on this forum and so much info to absorb. If you have questions, ask away. Just keep in mind a lot of these folks have answered the same questions over and over, and sometimes to the same posters over and over. They get a little short sometimes, but the info is still good. If you want to own a bulldawg one day you need to develope thick skin. 

PS Welcome to the forum.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> I found your post rather rude, insulting, and offensive.
> 
> What I am asking is not irrelevant.
> I don't know where you got the idea of me saying anything about human aggression. I am talking about dog aggression in this thread. I know APBTs and other bully breeds are NOT supposed to show human aggression. So I don't know where you are getting the idea I brought up human aggression at all.
> ...





KMdogs said:


> You should research ALL these breeds (and even more, don't limit possibilities) to find your next dog to be a perfect match for your needs, wants as well as suitable uses. Often, people think they want an APBT when in fact, they do not.. You sound eager, which is great.. *Take a step back and be willing to accept what you think you know may not prove to be truth, sometimes you must erase the bullshit and start over.*.


KM said it best


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> KM said it best


Well I do know a bit more about GSDs than bully breeds.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

what I took from smiggs post was that if you get a dog from a shelter it could be mixed with other breeds that have different traits, HA being one of them. Not saying your dog is HA or has HA traits. Just that mixed breeds COULD have another breed without even knowing it that MAY have HA traits. Mixing a DA APBT with a HA GSD could be a horrible mix and temperament, and it may just favor one breed or the other and you might never know. That's what I got from his post anyway.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

ames said:


> what I took from smiggs post was that if you get a dog from a shelter it could be mixed with other breeds that have different traits, HA being one of them. Not saying your dog is HA or has HA traits. Just that mixed breeds COULD have another breed without even knowing it that MAY have HA traits. Mixing a DA APBT with a HA GSD could be a horrible mix and temperament, and it may just favor one breed or the other and you might never know. That's what I got from his post anyway.


I didn't get that at all. I never brought up human aggression. I don't think just because its a shelter dog it automatically means that the dog is aggressive. Thats why I prefer to go to a shelter that does temperament testing, believe it or not they do. The one I volunteer at does. They do this in order to determine if the dog is adoptable, and if the dog is adoptable, they determine the type of home it should go to such as a single dog home, a child free home, etc. But that is the chance you get a dog from a rescue or shelter. Go to a rescue or shelter that temperament tests and FOSTERS dogs, if the shelter or rescue does fostering that is a big plus because then the foster parents can tell you alot more about the dog.

Also some of her facts on GSDs are not accurate. They were not bred specifically to be "man stoppers" nor are they size of horses(not even close) nor do Huskies make good guard dogs. Nor are GSDs more aggressive towards humans as they need to be stable dogs to work in the type of things they do. They were bred to be all around working dog and companion dog.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

> If you get a shelter dog, that is mixed, it can be much more aggressive than a purebred APBT. Why you say? The dogs genes are compiled of many other dogs, these other dogs can be guard dogs, GS, ROTT, HUSKY, or CHOW. The dogs i just mentioned have much more aggression towards humans than an APBT just an FYI.


That is a very broad generalization, imho.

It can be but it doesn't have to be. Yes, a lot of dogs come in with tons of baggage but there are also a lot of gems.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

K9Jessie said:


> I didn't get that at all. I never brought up human aggression. I don't think just because its a shelter dog it automatically means that the dog is aggressive. Thats why I prefer to go to a shelter that does temperament testing, believe it or not they do. The one I volunteer at does. They do this in order to determine if the dog is adoptable, and if the dog is adoptable, they determine the type of home it should go to such as a single dog home, a child free home, etc. But that is the chance you get a dog from a rescue or shelter. Go to a rescue or shelter that temperament tests and FOSTERS dogs, if the shelter or rescue does fostering that is a big plus because then the foster parents can tell you alot more about the dog.
> 
> *Also some of her facts on GSDs are not accurate. They were not bred specifically to be "man stoppers" nor are they size of horses(not even close) nor do Huskies make good guard dogs. Nor are GSDs more aggressive towards humans as they need to be stable dogs to work in the type of things they do. They were bred to be all around working dog and companion dog.*


That is why they arent on the BSL list(exaggerating again). Google guard dogs, and GSD will be on the list. The size of horses, was an exaggeration.

Are you kidding me? They are not aggressive, perhaps you have not seen police K9 dogs, their work is to be aggressive towards humans, or whoever is the one running on the other end.

Answer me this, why do K9 units prefer a GSD? 
-Because theyre smart? Why not a Labrador, they are just as smart.
-Because they have drive, and are work dogs? Why not a labrador or Collie they have just much drive.

Whats left?

As for husky's i mistaken them with the top bite list. woops

I do not mean to come off as a jerk, but i am not bashing on GSD or making the breed inferior. I was considering actually getting one before my current dogs. They are just too big for me. To big as in i would need to reconstruct bigger fences around my house.

I like your dogs, and i hope you do not see my post as an attack rather a post to train you against those who do not know(Breed Discriminators). 


Drei Raeuber said:


> That is a very broad generalization, imho.
> 
> It can be but it doesn't have to be. Yes, a lot of dogs come in with tons of baggage but there are also a lot of gems.


When you adopt, the whole dog is a broad generalization because you do not know its pedigree, or what its genome is made up of.

Yeah you can go and adopt as many dogs as you want, chi/lab mixes, pit/gsd mixes, ect..... but that is just as general as the dog. Why? because the dog is demonstrating a phenotype of characteristics that fits the looks of a certain breed. Other than that, you do not where it gets its drive, playfulness, loyalness.

My hats go off to those who do adopt, do adequate training, and proper socialization. I know many people on this forum have adopted pits, and they are a great bunch of people.

Most dogs that are rescued are NOT gems...... They are made Gems by the kind people that adopt them.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

> Are you kidding me? They are not aggressive, perhaps you have not seen police K9 dogs, their work is to be aggressive towards humans, or whoever is the one running on the other end.


Not true. That is a very broad and wide generalization. The German Shepherd is a Herding Dog that later on, because of his abilities was used for military, police, sport, service, search and rescue, therapy... pretty much anything you can think off, the GSD can do it.

It's a Jack of all Trades, Master of none. He's good at everything but just not a master at anything.

Yes, a German Shepherd has got to have aggression. The Pit Bull has it too. Every breed has aggression in them.

Aggression is a trait of the German Shepherd but most dogs are not exactly aggressive towards human.

A German Shepherd should have:

Food Drive
Prey/Possession (one doesn't come without the other) Drive
Fight Drive
Defense

He should also be very social, have a herding instinct, be able to differ a threat from a normal situation and should not go after any running person or a running child or be aggressive towards human without a reason and be brave.

I guarantee you that you can find all of these things in a Pitt Bull as well.

If a German Shepherd was that aggressive towards human you wouldn't be able to use him for so many different things. A German Shepherd will not run after a person to take them down.

Mine are worked in Schutzhund but I primarily do SAR.

These are my dogs plus a friends Malinois who IS a retired police dog. All of these dogs have been worked in bite work but they won't just take down a person because it's running from them. 





What happens is that most of the dogs are object and not person oriented. If you wear a sleeve and you'd toss the sleeve in one direction and run into the other, the dog would NOT go for you, they'd go for the sleeve. That being said, they CAN be trained, and quite a few people do, to go after the person. But you can do the same with a Pit Bull.

This is my girl. Looks quite impressive, right? She was in the above video and chased him, yet didn't take him down, because she can differ a threat, sport and fun from each other. There would be seriously something wrong if she couldn't.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Not true. That is a very broad and wide generalization. The German Shepherd is a Herding Dog that later on, because of his abilities was used for military, police, sport, service, search and rescue, therapy... pretty much anything you can think off, the GSD can do it.
> 
> It's a Jack of all Trades, Master of none. He's good at everything but just not a master at anything.
> 
> ...


Here is my problem with this logic, and that still doesnt answer my question. When K9 GSDs go after a criminal. The criminal isnt wearing a sleeve. The criminal is running away.

Every dog has aggression, no, different levels of aggression yes.

Do all GSD owners do schutzhund training? No.

I really admire your dogs in the video, and i think theyre beautiful and smart. Great job!


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Not true. That is a very broad and wide generalization. The German Shepherd is a Herding Dog that later on, because of his abilities was used for military, police, sport, service, search and rescue, therapy... pretty much anything you can think off, the GSD can do it.
> 
> It's a Jack of all Trades, Master of none. He's good at everything but just not a master at anything.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> Here is my problem with this logic, and that still doesnt answer my question. When K9 GSDs go after a criminal. The criminal isnt wearing a sleeve. The criminal is running away.
> 
> Every dog has aggression, no, different levels of aggression yes.
> 
> ...


There are many different levels of drive. There certainly are Shepherds that have the kind of aggression to take down a human. These dogs are bred and selected. However you also have those that primarily have a lot of prey drive and biddability and handler sensibility.

Yes, police k9's are trained to take down running people but they wouldn't just naturally do that, without all that training that went into them unless they really have it in them, which is extremely rare since most shepherds, nowadays are more geared towards sport.

The type of Shepherd you describe is not wanted anymore. Even in Germany you have to be extremely careful with the sport. Schutzhund has a bad reputation in the public because people think you train an attack dog that does exactly what you describe even though it's entirely object oriented, meaning prey. 
They make it look real but by all means, it isn't.

That being said. You can see the difference between my two girls.

Nala has much more intensity and fight in her than my other girl Indra. Indra is a hard worker. Quality wise, Nala is better. She is patrol dog material, yet she wouldn't just take you down because you are running. 

This is Indra doing bitework but there is just something missing. Can you see the difference between the two dogs? 





She's not a bad dog, a great searcher, lots of hunt drive but she doesn't have the same intensity that Nala has and that's the difference. You have to bring it out first. You have to work it out. 
I have no doubt however, if anyone would oppose a threat, they would eliminate that threat, however, they are NEVER supposed to be a threat towards any human without any reason. Just like Pit Bulls don't attack for any reason, Shepherds don't attack without reason either.

It's a trained response.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> *There are many different levels of drive. There certainly are Shepherds that have the kind of aggression to take down a human. These dogs are bred and selected. *However you also have those that primarily have a lot of prey drive and biddability and handler sensibility.
> 
> Yes, police k9's are trained to take down running people but they wouldn't just naturally do that, without all that training that went into them unless they really have it in them, which is extremely rare since most shepherds, nowadays are more geared towards sport.
> 
> ...


Thank you, you just answered the OPs question, and what i was trying to get at.

Just like in APBTs they were bred as fighting dogs, but see no one wants them any more because of high DA, BUT even if that DA is bred out, it is still there, because that is what made the APBT a great fighting dog.

Just like the GSD there is still those types of dogs, and that gene is still carried through out many GSDs. It is actually never bred out. That gene might be recessive, but when bred with another pairing GSD with that same gene, bam, you get that characteristic back.

Edit: What kind of camera are you using it looks bad ass, i want to get a gopro .... Great dogs, i wonder how mine would like pulling someone out lmao


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Drei Raeuber said:


> There are many different levels of drive. There certainly are Shepherds that have the kind of aggression to take down a human. These dogs are bred and selected. However you also have those that primarily have a lot of prey drive and biddability and handler sensibility.
> 
> Yes, police k9's are trained to take down running people but they wouldn't just naturally do that, without all that training that went into them unless they really have it in them, which is extremely rare since most shepherds, nowadays are more geared towards sport.
> 
> ...


I really like the videos!

I don't think that the police would be using dogs that were very human aggressive, because they want stable smart dogs that can tell the difference between the good guy and bad guy. Its not easy training for police dogs.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

K9Jessie said:


> I really like the videos!
> 
> I don't think that the police would be using dogs that were very human aggressive, because they want stable smart dogs that can tell the difference between the good guy and bad guy. Its not easy training for police dogs.


Yes, no matter the breed, the dogs need to be rock solid and can't be a liability.

I remember, about 15 years ago my father received a phone call from the US that they wanted a dog that goes into the building and brings out the criminal. These dogs were so sharp that only a certain type of handler could handle them. He did "nail" three handlers before he could be put to work.

There certainly are those kind of dogs. It would be denial to say they are not out there. Those are extremely hard, sharp and absolutely NOT for a pet home or inexperienced handler. Heck, not even a lot of experienced handlers can handle these dogs BUT they have to be rock solid and still can be social.

We used to have one of those dogs. He was the champion dog of my father. A beast on the field and could be nasty, not easy to handle, yet absolutely social in the house an a life insurance around us kids. ROCK SOLID DOG!


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

The super sharp characteristics had to come from another gsd, from another gsd, whos cousins with another gsd


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> The super sharp characteristics had to come from another gsd, from another gsd, whos cousins with another gsd


Well... we could get into what is said about the Pit Bull. The Pit Bull is a great dog that does quite well in Schutzhund himself and there is a reason why the Pit Bull is doing well in that kind of venue because they have similar traits to the German Shepherd.

So has the Rottweiler, so has the Dobermann, so has the American Staffordshire, so has the Dogo Argentino... and the Malinois... and the Dutchie...

The German Shepherd is not bred to be human aggressive. None of these dogs are. They have aggression, yes, they might have sharpness but they are certainly NOT selected to be human aggressive.

Here is the GSD Standard
http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breed_standard.htm



> Character
> 
> The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.


*FAULTS*



> Severe Faults
> 
> Deviations from the breed characteristics described above which compromise the working ability of the animal.
> 
> ...


Anyhow, we are waaay off topic


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

> In 223 cases of dogs presented to a specialist behavioural clinic in Brisbane, Australia, 87 (39%) were for severe aggression. The classes of aggression included dominance (31.6%), territorial (29%), predatory (12.3%), intermale (12.3%), sibling rivalry (7.9%), fear biting (6%) and idiopathic rage (0.9%). The breeds most represented which attacked humans were the Bull Terrier (16%), German Shepherd and crosses (15%), Cattle dog breeds (Blue Heeler and crosses, 9.2%), Terrier breeds (9.2%), Labrador (8%), Poodle and Cocker Spaniel (both 5.7%) and Rottweiler (4.6%). The dangerous dog list put out by the local Brisbane City Council includes the first three breeds mentioned and the Rottweiler as the top four breeds causing aggression problems.
> 
> Hospital records in Victoria and Queensland confirm that most damage is caused to humans by Bull Terriers and German Shepherds. Many breeds similar to those in our study are also represented in American data on aggressive breeds.
> 
> ...


Elsevier


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Yeah, Bull Terriers and Shepherds. That includes the pit bull... doesn't it? 

Look, I don't discriminate your breed, please don't discriminate mine. I can tell you from personal experience. My family is breeding working German Shepherds for over 30 years. NONE of our dogs has EVER attacked anyone. None of our dogs has EVER bit anyone for no reason (excluding sport and work) 

They competed in sport, they went to the police, to the military, all over the world, SAR...but they have never attacked or bitten anyone. Nor do I know any dog that is in the sport or actively working that has bitten somebody or attacked. 

It's certainly not the sport dogs that anyone has to worry about. It's the crappy backyard bred dog in ignorant, incompetent pet dog hands that can't read dogs and doesn't even know the most simple warning signs, that you've got to be worried about. 

Just the Dogo Argentino case... you know, the one that bit the News Anchor? CLASSIC pet people incident! 

I'm pretty sure that everybody can agree on that. Especially since you guys go through a lot of discrimination, so PLEASE let's not discriminate each other. We are better than that!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

The goal of a Patrol/Police/Military hound is not to prevent or stop a threat from happening rather to hinder take dog a threat until the command is otherwise given to release.. Generally speaking however i am good friends with a man thats involved in the k9 military facility in Hartsville (SC) and many of their hounds (that are GSD or GSD crosses) are purposely bred for HA instilled vs relying more so on Prey Drive.. I do agree with you Drei, however just pointing out it is a bit more common than perhaps suggested..

PP dogs should have instilled HA, prey drive, defense drive, rank drive, (depending on who you ask.. I prefer a bit of it) excellent nerves, obtain gameness, excellent mentality of distinguishing threat to non.. Of course, trainability, etc is also very important. There is a huge difference between a dog that needs to be used to momentarily hinder a threat vs stopping and protection at all odds..

Also one cannot train what is not there.. Meaning, you cannot train a dog to specifically do a task that is against all nature of that said dog. You cannot train a cur to fight just as you cannot train a non - HA dog to stop a human..


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

It's called fight drive and not human aggression. There is a huge difference between the two.

The German Shepherd is NOT bred to be human aggressive, period.

Do you know how damaging it is with all the BSL to go out there and say "These dogs are human aggressive." while it is simply not the truth? Aren't you advocating for pit bulls that they are not bred to be human aggressive, yet you turn around in FULL IGNORANCE and say the German Shepherd is primarily bred to be human aggressive. :stick:

*FIGHT DRIVE, PREY/POSSESSION, RETRIEVE, DEFENSE, HARDNESS AND COURAGE! 
*
That is NOT Human Aggression, PERIOD!
They are bred to work and every single dog should have these qualities.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> It's called fight drive and not human aggression. There is a huge difference between the two.
> 
> The German Shepherd is NOT bred to be human aggressive, period.
> 
> ...


I am talking about PP dogs NOT Bulldogs, the APBT is utterly useless as a PP hound. Where did i say GSDs are bred primarily for HA? I simply stated they are there being bred rather than denying that its impossible for a GSD to be HA. Ever hear of a Fila? FBs are a prime example of what i am referring to..

"Fight" and "drive" is a bit contradicting within itself. In the wild animals rarely will fight just for to do so as what does fighting result in? Injury, death and eventually a risk of extinction if we look at a broader image of fight drive in an entire species. Drive in essence is the momentum, ability and strong will/desire to perform a task within reason.. By natures law, "Fight Drive" shouldn't exist but does in VERY few animals, most of which were instilled by breeding practices and care must be provided when keeping such..

No, i mean HA. My hounds are in fact HA (and controlled, mind you) and i'm not going to BS around it otherwise. A well bred, PP hound is controlled but has the ability, mentality and function to stop a threat.

I do agree with you on hardness and courage, the ability to obtain the level of gameness is also highly important as if you have the desire to keep and use a PP hound for intended function, when a threat (insert scenario here) arises if this hound gets hurt the ability to continue until the work is finished should be not only desired but a given.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> I am talking about PP dogs NOT Bulldogs, the APBT is utterly useless as a PP hound. Where did i say GSDs are bred primarily for HA? I simply stated they are there being bred rather than denying that its impossible for a GSD to be HA. Ever hear of a Fila? FBs are a prime example of what i am referring to..
> 
> "Fight" and "drive" is a bit contradicting within itself. In the wild animals rarely will fight just for to do so as what does fighting result in? Injury, death and eventually a risk of extinction if we look at a broader image of fight drive in an entire species. Drive in essence is the momentum, ability and strong will/desire to perform a task within reason.. By natures law, "Fight Drive" shouldn't exist but does in VERY few animals, most of which were instilled by breeding practices and care must be provided when keeping such..
> 
> ...


We are technically talking about the same thing, just using different words only that we call it fight drive and/or defense. HA is never used when you talk about a German Shepherd and I've been around breed long enough to know not to use that term simply because it is misleading and will be used against you and the breed.

We've got enough problems out there as it is so lets use the proper terms. Human Aggression is not one of them.

Also, I have never heard the word hound in regards to police dogs either. A hound is a hound not a German Shepherd.

Amazing how the terminology differs.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> We are technically talking about the same thing, just using different words only that we call it fight drive and/or defense. HA is never used when you talk about a German Shepherd and I've been around breed long enough to know not to use that term simply because it is misleading and will be used against you and the breed.
> 
> We've got enough problems out there as it is so lets use the proper terms. Human Aggression is not one of them.
> 
> ...


In essence, we are. I haven't completely disagreed with you however we are just speaking in different languages.. At least you seem to understand what i'm talking about.

Hound by itself is just another way of saying dog. Many people associate hound with hunting dogs, such as **** Hounds, bloodhound, Black Mouth Curs, Pointers, etc.. All dogs can be called hounds as its one of the same.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

SMiGGs said:


> Are you kidding me? They are not aggressive, perhaps you have not seen police K9 dogs, their work is to be aggressive towards humans, or whoever is the one running on the other end.


So then you are saying that SCH dogs are HA as well then when they do their work? Their work is not to be HA. They are trained to do a job and they do it well.

GSDs are a naturally protective and amazingly family oriented breed but they are not HA and when trained in SCH they are going for an object not the person. They are trained on the sleeve for a reason. GSD's have qualities that make a good protection dog without having a dog that is just a HA animal.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> So then you are saying that SCH dogs are HA as well then when they do their work? Their work is not to be HA. They are trained to do a job and they do it well.
> 
> GSDs are a naturally protective and amazingly family oriented breed but they are not juts HA and when trained in SCH they are going for an object not the person. They are trained on the sleeve for a reason. GSD's have qualities that make a good protection dog without having a dog that is just a HA animal.


Yes i know and understand that, but in real world. Not every GSD owner trains their dogs in SCH. Now you have a dog that is naturally protective and has Fight Drive/HA, w.e u wanna call it, what will a non trained SCH/OBD trained GSD do?

Im not sure if you read through the whole thread, but i addressed this reasoning already. Yes a dog might be trained to go for a sleeve, but in the real world, the criminal is NOT wearing a sleeving.

I dont want to come off like an anti-gsd/anti-SCH, because i really admire SCH trained dogs, and GSD's.

This is my opinion, that i have based around facts, and personal expierence, but everyone else is entitled to their own.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> Yes i know and understand that, but in real world. Not every GSD owner trains their dogs in SCH. Now you have a dog that is naturally protective and has Fight Drive/HA, w.e u wanna call it, what will a non trained SCH/OBD trained GSD do?
> 
> Im not sure if you read through the whole thread, but i addressed this reasoning already. Yes a dog might be trained to go for a sleeve, but in the real world, the criminal is NOT wearing a sleeving.
> 
> ...


You don't want to come off anti-gsd? You certainly do and that's just an ignorant statement.... sheeesh... ignorance like that do more damage to any kind of breed than anyone else. Statements like yours are extremely dangerous.

One of my dogs is simply a house dog. He doesn't really do anything an comes from one of the strongest working dog background possible. He's the most mellow, laid back dog you can imagine.

A stable dog will not ever attack a human being and that has nothing to do with being trained or not trained. A sound dog knows to differe a threat from a normal situation whether they have been trained or not. That is not what these dogs are bred for!

The drive is not human aggression, the drive is there to give them the tools to withstand any kind of threat, whether it's a human, another dog or even a horse or giraffe or whatever the threat is.

If it was true what you are saying not a simple German Shepherd could perform as a therapy dog, service dog or search and rescue dog and there are millions of GSD's out there, that have never been worked in SchH, yet they perform just fine in any other venue. GSD's are allrounders, Jack of all Trades and not bred to attack humans. Good grief!


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Like i said its my opinion. I understand you are butthurt about the situation. This is my opinion take it or leave it, but when you go off calling me ignorant and avoiding a peaceful discussion, you take things to a different level.

I try to avoid replying, but excuse me you are the one who is ignorant because you decline to accept the situation about these dogs. There is a reason why theyre chosen to be K9 unit Dogs, there is a reason why they are on a banned list, there is a reason why they are labeled guard dogs, ect....


In order to better the breed you have to accept matters for what they are.

As you can see i have provided you with links to you and the original poster, to review. I have provided info showing Pitbulls in the same statistics to avoid such statements as " You certainly do and that's just an ignorant statement.... sheeesh... ignorance like that do more damage to any kind of breed than anyone else."

I admire your dogs, but this is my theory, and my belief. Sometimes its better to see the problem from a different perspective rather than your own.

Would i talk down about my own children, of course not. They are my own. Sometimes you need a teacher, principal, relative ect... To tell you how your kids are behaving, or what they are doing.

I also understand that you are making yourself look like your the one being hurt about BSL, or dog discrimination when in fact we are in the same boat. 

This is an APBT forum, i do not accept when someone makes this breed look inferior, "Jack of all trade, perfect, no HA/DA." Your intimidation about your family breeding GSD does not scare me on bit, nor you flexing your muscle about it. 

I have yet to insult you or your belief, so i expect the same.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Facts are facts, beliefs are beliefs.. If you believe something to be true it doesn't always equal facts. Keep in mind this and you can better yourself, i am speaking to all not to just one or the other as i know neither nor do i know exactly how your hounds are Drei given im not there to physically see them..

However, to the BSL remarks.. The reason ANY breed is targeted is due to popular misconceptions (lock jaw anyone?) and the lack of respect of a hound with a purpose, function and ability.. People have lost common sense over the years and have forgotten that all dog breeds at least at one point in time, were bred much more wide spread for that function.. As well as used, of course. The mindset has changed, the time of PETA and adoptions are among us.. (not knocking rescuing if thats what you chose to feed thats great)

A properly bred and trained GSD is no more dangerous to society than a properly bred APBT.. Its piss poor breeding ethics, piss poor registry excuses and popularity of said breeds (which in return feeds BYBs and registries BS) that cause more issues therefore more raise of concern rather than using their common sense about the situation..

GSDs, Bandogs, Bulldogs, Pit Dogs, Catch dogs... They are all vicious animals that should be banned unless they are cute little 4 pound fluffy (useless) minipoos or overweight, 100+ pound [insert here] dogs that were meant to be a good 20+ pounds lighter with better mentality and ability..

Schutzhund is NOT protection training, many dogs that are involved in the sport view it more as a game vs anything else.. People see human, dog, bite chase and automatically put together an imagine that isn't actually the case.. I've seen plenty of Schutzhund Champions that would be utterly USELESS as PP hounds.. Hell prime example look at Lisas (PK) bulldogs..

A properly bred PP hound would have no business (at least in my opinion) in a sport environment.. It is too far off what their purpose is to serve any real reasoning.. Not to mention the heavy risk factor involved..

That is like saying show stock can perform just as well as working stock in any real test of character, i can pull some videos (especially GSD) where the difference between show stock and working stock in temperament testing is not even like night and day, its like day in august vs night in dead of winter..


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

> *The Difference Between Schutzhund & KNPV Dogs*
> 
> By Ed Frawley
> 
> ...


Leerburg | The Difference Between Schutzhund & KNPV Dogs


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

SMiGGs said:


> Yes i know and understand that, but in real world. Not every GSD owner trains their dogs in SCH. Now you have a dog that is naturally protective and has Fight Drive/HA, w.e u wanna call it, what will a non trained SCH/OBD trained GSD do?
> 
> Im not sure if you read through the whole thread, but i addressed this reasoning already. Yes a dog might be trained to go for a sleeve, but in the real world, the criminal is NOT wearing a sleeving.
> 
> ...


I did indeed read the thread. The dog has no idea what a criminal is wearing. They are trained to respond and do a job they are not acting on HA tendencies. They are targeting a point not going after a person as you are implying.

I have met SCH dogs and had many years experience with GSDs and have never seen anything that would make me think they are a HA breed. As with any breed you get dogs that are but it doesn't make it a trait of the breed.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> That is why they arent on the BSL list(exaggerating again). Google guard dogs, and GSD will be on the list. The size of horses, was an exaggeration.
> 
> *Are you kidding me? They are not aggressive, perhaps you have not seen police K9 dogs, their work is to be aggressive towards humans, or whoever is the one running on the other end.
> *
> ...


Yep I have, and met some. If they were bred to be human aggressive I wouldn't be here or be without some sort of body part or something. Police dogs are trained to know what is a threat and what isn't. If they weren't then they wouldn't be police dogs.

Some rescue dogs are gems and come that way, as having worked with many.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> It's called fight drive and not human aggression. There is a huge difference between the two.
> 
> The German Shepherd is NOT bred to be human aggressive, period.
> 
> ...


i stopped reading at that point.

im amazed people are being so nice in this thread but to keep the discussion going ill be nice too- i would say KM has more experience in this particular area then anyone else here. hes not ignorant, PERIOD! you should stick around and read some of his posts, youll learn something.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

zohawn said:


> i stopped reading at that point.
> 
> im amazed people are being so nice in this thread but to keep the discussion going ill be nice too- i would say KM has more experience in this particular area then anyone else here. hes not ignorant, PERIOD! you should stick around and read some of his posts, youll learn something.


Oh yeah, because being from Germany, growing up around one of the 10 best kennels in Germany and the working line Shepherd, knowing pedigrees, bloodlines and what a working German Shepherd is, owning and training working German Shepherds, knowing the best breeders in Germany really doesn't count as any kind or form of experience with that breed. I grew up with these dogs, breeding and handling these type of dogs that are talked about. We bred these kind of dogs and these kind of dogs are not wanted in todays society anymore. These dogs could only be handled by certain handlers. Everybody wants a dog like that and barely anyone can handle them but again, it's not human aggression, it's fight drive and aggression in general and it didn't matter where that threat was coming from. If it was human, another dog or a bull... they would have eliminated that threat or died in the process and yet you could have taken those dogs back home and have your kids crawl all over them. There rarely was a dog that wasn't social and couldn't have been held as a house dog. On the job and in the field however, these dogs were a different story!

I give you guys props about the Pit Bull. No doubt about that and learned a lot already, especially about the different ways of exercising. Weight Pulling seems to be a favorite.

But with the GSD... the breed is NOT what it used to be 20 years ago. The kind of dogs that are referred to are very hard to find because like everything else, they are not wanted anymore.

That being said, there are still breeders out there breeding for the police. But those dogs are way different from 20 years ago. My female is from a breeder that purposely breeds for the police. These dogs are highly driven, rock solid nerves (VERY IMPORTANT WITH A DOG LIKE THAT) and handler sensitive (NOT SOFT, BIG DIFFERENCE).

She would make a kick ass patrol dog, a kick ass detection dog, doesn't matter what you do, she'll be good at anything and everything because she's the total package but she's doing Search and Rescue, period and for that, even when a person is yelling, screaming and kicking after the dog, you can't have the dog attack. If it was true, what was being said about them, not a single GSD could do that kind of job because they'd all attack in an instant.

*GSD's are supposed to be rock solid dogs that can be worked in any kind of venue. Could she be trained to take down people as a police dog? Heck yes! She could and she would if she was trained for it. No doubt about that. 
But she can also be trained to save people and STILL do bitework on the side because she is also very object oriented.*
*It's the Balance that is important! *


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

you just said 

"But with the GSD... the breed is NOT what it used to be 20 years ago. The kind of dogs that are referred to are very hard to find because like everything else, they are not wanted anymore"

they arent extinct, by your own admission. i bet KM either has dogs or could get dogs of that caliber. you also said they are not wanted...only the general public doesnt want them. i know plenty of individuals who want and can actually handle them. i feel confident KM could too.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I am not going to discredit anyone who is breeding hounds that excel in function and ability, however i can say that experience does not always equal knowledge as you can take anyone, in any field that has been doing it 20, 30 years or even longer and take another that has half the experience and that individual has gained far more than all the years of the other.. Its all in willingness to learn, who you learned from and accepting that what you previously believed may not be right or even in the same field as being right.. This is the hardest part of being human as usually pride and other emotions cloud judgement and our own abilities to accept being wrong. Generally speaking.

There are always going to be breeders out there breeding hounds to function and ability of that the hounds were originally intended. Take the APBT for instance, it can be easily assumed that the APBT as a breed has changed and that there are no longer any out there that are being bred and used to original form with all the media, BYB and typical ownership.. However anyone in the bulldog community knows otherwise, there are plenty of breeders world wide proving this statement to be false.. Same can be said with GSDs, Mastiffs, etc.. Hell i've even ran across a lady first part of last year that used her Yorkshire as a means of controlling vermin on the family land.. How many people can say they've even heard of this in the past 50 - 60 years? Not many i'll tell you that especially modern days where the Yorkie is just a designer dog bred smaller and smaller for "cuteness" vs any ability at all..

I won't pretend to know it all, most of my experience is centered around Bulldogs and probably only the last 5 or 6 years, involved in PP, Patrol and similar working abilities.. Mostly that of Bandogs but also other protection breeds such as GSDs.. That said, i don't know it all however i have made every effort and continue to make every effort to educate myself, learn from mistakes and continue to grow as a handler and fancier. I don't know Drei enough to say hes full of shit or his hounds fall short of expectations, so i can't really criticize but so much and thats only based on the current..

The general mass of dogs out there do fall short, its a popularity game and a useless game of breeding just to breed, breeding out original purpose to substitute the show ring or other means not originally designed for said dog. However, to deny that there are breeders out there still breeding true (generally, private yards) is just as wrong.

I could further go in to my own experiences, my own hounds and this that and the other but honestly it doesn't change much.. Its just words, people that have chosen to speak to me here (or else where) know what is what.. Those that haven't have made their own assumptions and that is all it is.. Grain of salt in the wind. In my opinion no one can truly know without physically seeing the hounds and first hand experience speaks SO much more than any word, any picture and even videos can't really give the same as a "live" performance.. Put simply, anyone can watch a video of a car going 200mph but to truly understand what its like, how it feels, you must do it yourself. Same goes with skydiving, involvement of dogs or anything else you can think of... Especially with editing power, mistakes can be edited out, things can be changed or forged, etc.. Just takes know how and dishonesty. 

As to GSDs, i can not speak for them entirely as to being an all around-er as i've seen very little, first hand out side the world of Sch. and PP/patrol environments.. I can say, the APBT, as a whole is one of the very few breeds that completely excels in any task given aside from PP work.. Though i say that but there are a few out there that could, probably do.. Crossed with other breeds the APBT adds some HELL of foundation genetics to further improve, advance, or create catch dogs or PP dogs.. One of VERY few breeds that has proven those words as solid truth, even those others if date back far enough still owe its thanks to this tremendously outstanding Bulldog.


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

just a quick point .. training a dog in schutz does not mean it will be stable with other dogs . i have a friend that has 1 titled and another getting ready to title .. they are rather DA.
My older male is usually not too DA but he sure will fight if another dog steps ... here is a pic of my boy in training


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

There are no such thing as Pitties.. what is that some sort of soft term? Whats it refer too as Pit Bull is no longer a breed but a slang term collectively describing all dogs steeming from the APBT. 

A bully would be the best bet, or a lab, or a bull terrier.......... I'll tell you why.. 

Your worried about insurance.. (snickers) GSD German Shepherd Dogs attack and kill more CHILDREN every year than any other breed, most get swept under the rug cause they are caused by POLICE DOGS! I've worked with police dogs shipped directly from europe.. THEY ARE WOLF DOGS inbred and linebred and CROSS-BRED TO BE HUMAN AGGRESSIVE SINCE WWI!!!!! PERIOD! Thats a liability not the dog that is going to kill your neighbors GSD for growling at one of you. LOL SO .. learn MORE>............

All are bulldogs or bandogs .. drop the APBT unless your showing or competing for APBT Ch titles. .. SIMPLY call your dog a bulldog if its under 80 and a bandog if its more than 80.. Keep IT SIMPLE......... Do you have a pit bull NO I have a bulldog .. OH.. they look at it in a whole other light. Good luck have fun...........


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

motocross308 said:


> just a quick point .. training a dog in schutz does not mean it will be stable with other dogs . i have a friend that has 1 titled and another getting ready to title .. they are rather DA.
> My older male is usually not too DA but he sure will fight if another dog steps ... here is a pic of my boy in training


 really nice dog


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> There are no such thing as Pitties.. what is that some sort of soft term? Whats it refer too as Pit Bull is no longer a breed but a slang term collectively describing all dogs steeming from the APBT.
> 
> A bully would be the best bet, or a lab, or a bull terrier.......... I'll tell you why..
> 
> ...


I call them pitties as affectionate name I give to all the pitbull mixes that come into my shelter. Don't like it get over it. I know what the term Pit bull is.

Wow that couldn't be more farther from the truth! I don't know why its so hard for people to read that my insurance happens to let us own GSDs, we asked the insurance people. We just can't have Dobermans, Rottweilers or Pitbulls. And yes I do know that GSDs are on many insurance's lists of "banned breeds" but we just happen to not have them listed on ours. If it were a perfect world none of those breeds would be on that list, but sadly its not. What so funny? I don't find anything your post funny. I don't hear of many police dogs attacking or killing children so I have no idea where that came from. I am pretty sure its not swept under the rug either. I have a friend who lives near 2 K-9 officers who have children and have no issues at all. I am pretty sure K-9 officer wouldn't be bring home his dog if it were that unstable. When it comes to any insurance I will be getting one that allows me to own any dog of any breed.

Also your statement about wolf dogs being bred into GSDs to make them more human aggressive? That is also false. Did you read any of the other posts? I am pretty sure that the people I know and talk to who actually import and work with GSDs and train them to be police dogs would know that your statement is false. So I have no idea where you got your info from. Also have you met an actual real wolf dog? I know some people who own some and will also say your statement is false. I don't know what your last sentence "Thats a liability not the dog that is going to kill your neighbors GSD for growling at one of you." GSDs are NOT bred to be HA. My GSDs don't go around growling at people as they are both well socialized and trained. Also owning ANY DOG OF ANY BREED, IMO, is a liability because ANY DOG OF ANY BREED can bite.

So I think you are the one who needs to go learn some more before you go around making false statements. Its statements like yours that causes BSL.

If I get a APBT I will call it that, if I get a bulldog I will call it that. I don't like lying about a dog's breed for anything.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> There are no such thing as Pitties.. what is that some sort of soft term? Whats it refer too as Pit Bull is no longer a breed but a slang term collectively describing all dogs steeming from the APBT.
> 
> A bully would be the best bet, or a lab, or a bull terrier.......... I'll tell you why..
> 
> ...


What a bunch of BS!

Thanks but no thanks. I'll stick with my super human aggressive, baby-killing, inbred wolf dogs....since mine are all from Europe, two from Germany and one from Austria. Good lord, LASS HIRN REGNEN! :rofl:

Going to take those super dangerous killer dogs to search training now.

Ignorance is bliss.... NOT!


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

I may be getting in at tread I have read a lot of stuff here and some of its crazy as chit but when they was breeding the pit bulls if they should any sign that they were human aggressive they were put down on the spot and now the back yard breeder have cause a bad name for the dogs just breeding to god only knows what and not even carrying about the breed its self if its like the old dog man back in the day they searched for what they wanted to breed like gameness and ect and they wouldn't breed to trash this goes for any dog if you breed to retarded dogs you might get one good dog out of the litter but if you breed to good dogs you might stand a chance they all turn out good


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Drei Raeuber said:


> What a bunch of BS!
> 
> Thanks but no thanks. I'll stick with my super human aggressive, baby-killing, inbred wolf dogs....since mine are all from Europe, two from Germany and one from Austria. Good lord, LASS HIRN REGNEN! :rofl:
> 
> ...


Sure is look at you go......... 

The source of the stock is in-fact; roots itself in wolf dog ancestry with:


> German Calvary Captain Max von Stephanitz in the late 1800s founded the German Shepherd Dog from various German wolf-dogs used for herding. So as the media puts scare tactics out on wolf-dogs, we are forgetting the police are using wolf-dogs bred to attack people.












By the way my step dad is half german raised in the military abroad and grew up going to the army himself now retired US Army and very fluent in German affiliated languages. Sie sind nicht besonder!!!

I wansn't slandering the GSD; its a terrific war dog! A great MAN dog... the APBT on the other hand is the ALL AMERICAN ALL AROUND DOG! That generally by nature is NOT HA.. I've cared for dozens of K9s and worked K9 training myself for various departments and lord help the wrong person, several dogs have reverted and attacked their handlers in the chase of a perp.. I WONDER WHY?? Hmmm The dog is taught to seek the PERP the THREAT .. Hmmm .. ( NOT ALL COPS ARE GOOD and I bet the dogs realize this sometimes... ) 
The GSD has a superior canine intelligence and was once upon a time my favorite dog; it is what it is.. Whats its use today? There are better herders, better land guardian and stock guardians, better cart dogs, better dogs at everything except make a man submit without breaking him or shattering every bone in their arm or leg.. HOWEVER they do attack CHILDREN MORE than any other breed and its always swept under the rug, I spent some time on this same forum 2 yrs ago, almost; posting all the articles pertaining to such just within a 3 year time difference.

If you get offended enough to lash out in ignorance than that just fine, anyone who knows canine behavior, and breed history knows what it is.

Before WWII CRIMINALS wanted GSD, and Rotties ... and the Police promoted Game dogs and game dog contests.. AFTER.. well welcome to the NEW home of the gastapo.. LOL (scarcasm)

Im and sound when I say there is no better dog than a sound APBT from quality strains. I also have a Karelian Bear Laika which is the only dog I have found that can REALLY keep up with my bulldogs in the field. Matter a fact I've replaced shepards, heelers, great pyrinese all with a bulldog for this person or that, and besides Laika here I haven't heard of anyones dogs up here in the woods of N. Idaho that the dog returns home, usually gets eatin by a predator of this or that.. MEANWHILE thats what I HUNT. 

@ OP

You DID NOT coin "pitties" ... its a soft term and it does breed ignorance just as PIT BULL used to MEAN SOMETHING now its just slang.. the only PURE PIT BULL .. is a working strain of game type bulldogs known as APBT.. NOW PIT BULL sour to the mouth and the ears of many dog men and women, and a term for mass hysteria for the media. Proper term is in fact bulldog or bandog depending purpose and size.

I don't live in ignorance I live in BLISS which indeed is ENGLIGHTENMENT.. Give up the ego and try it out, NIRVANA is bliss 

IGNORANCE is people who believe the media and PIT BULL hysteria.. Thats ignorant, esspecially those who spread it and misread posts that would infact bring enlightenment.


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

Well said I i'd rather have my apbt


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

The German Shepherd was put together out of Swabian, Wuerttemberg and Thuringian lines.

Oh, it's "Sie sind nichts* B*esonder*es*." just saying...

If you believe that a herding breed can be put together out of wolves... good luck in trying. Go ahead, breed wolf-dogs and let me know how far you get in creating a herding dog that won't rip apart your sheep. :thumbsup:

Tina Barber can say as much as she wants that wolf was crossed in. They tried and completely disregarded it. As far as I know there was one dog crossed in that had wolf in him that was SIX GENERATIONS back. It was also said that wolf was in the dog because people are suckers for wolf dogs. Just look how many people want that big bad dog. Just look what they did with the GSD in the US. What they did to pretty much any breed. Bigger seems to be better over here. Most people don't even know what a real GSD looks like because they are breeding outside the standard for decades!

The foundation dogs are Horand vom Grafrath and his borther Luchs von Sparwasser. The bitch with the most influence is Mari von Grafrath.

Don't tell me about the history of my breed!

I've had wolf dogs, and if you see anything about me at all you'll know, I grew up in wolf rescue and soon after I turned 21 I gave up wolf rescue and my alaskan huskies.. all for bulldog fever............

I know for a fact that wolf dogs lie in the source and beginnings of the GSD, in the Alsatian Wolf Dog ~ But Go on Mr. ... I guess the GSD spawned from itself just like the Alsatian Wolf Dog. Again I Stress GSD was an original favorite and I've delt with dogs right from Deutschland with certificate of purity .. no pedigree came with those dogs for the departments and the way I understand it; its been that way for a LONG time and the SHOW dogs of the US like the Malinois originate from dogs after they hit outside TRUE working origins. 
Whats YOUR breed useful for? besides biting someone? that another breed isn't better at...


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Sure is look at you go.........
> 
> The source of the stock is in-fact; roots itself in wolf dog ancestry with:
> 
> ...


EXACTLY! Knowing and researching genetics goes a long way, it wasn't THAT long ago where people would cross "established" GSD lines to wolf crosses to clean up the line and further add to the HA, intelligence and willingness... Some of the "purest" GSD working lines today, if you trace back to around the early - mid 1900's you will run into either unknowns or documented wolf crossings.. Not always, but in some cases those unknowns are in fact wolf crossings unless otherwise documented, stated, etc.. Again, not ALWAYS..

The GSD has many uses, i absolutely agree.. However i have not heard often "all around-er" and "GSD" in the same sentence.. To a degree i can agree with it which is why i won't argue it, i can see why one would think this but by comparison, a Bulldog or Bandog Mastiff (even in broad sense) is more of an all around-er and can achieve AND excel in any task giving.. Except PP in terms of Bulldogs but there are a few Whopper type lines out there that have the ability, though more or less "smaller" sized Bandogs than anything..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> The German Shepherd was put together out of Swabian, Wuerttemberg and Thuringian lines.
> 
> Oh, it's "Sie sind nichts* B*esonder*es*." just saying...
> 
> ...


Just so happens FireHazard was involved in Wolf/wolf dog rescue, training, etc for several years..


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Firehazard said:


> There are no such thing as Pitties.. what is that some sort of soft term? Whats it refer too as Pit Bull is no longer a breed but a slang term collectively describing all dogs steeming from the APBT.
> 
> A bully would be the best bet, or a lab, or a bull terrier.......... I'll tell you why..
> 
> ...


WOW Stan, I usually applaud you on your Bulldog knowledge but you could not be more wrong about the GSD.

I have been around GSD longer than APBTs and have never heard anything like what you just stated about this breed. What statistics say they kill more than another other breed? Are these the same ones that say Pit Bulls are killing more than any other breed? Or the same ones that say Pit Bulls are HA??

To the rest of those in this thread:

For how many of us protect the name of the APBT I am seriously ashamed of how many people have jumped in and made false claims to what the GSD is. I see nothing different about what people are saying about the GSD in this thread than what uneducated people say about the APBT.

If you are not experienced with the breed how are you any different than all the people that run their mouths about what they "think" the APBT is???

Seeing other people that own a breed and reading about them does not give you any experience to say what a breed is.

Also how about we get over the fact that HER insurance does not except the APBT but does except the GSD. Your opinion of what is more dangerous doesn't change the FACT of what each company excepts. MY INSURANCE DOES NOT EXCLUDE MY GSD! However I do have to have separate insurance for my Pit Bulls. You guys are acting like she said GSD's are safer and she never said anything like that. HER INSURANCE DOES NOT EXCEPT THEM GET OVER IT!

Some seriously hypocritical BS in this thread.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

And they were excellent herders, eh? 

Rrrright! Because wolfs herd entire flocks without killing a single sheep. Put them into square positions and then herd them right through the gate. Never singling out the single prey to kill it and then feed the rest of the family. 

That's why you see so many wolfdogs at herding shows and that is why so many Shepherds use wolfdogs to herd their flocks.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> WOW Stan, I usually applaud you on your Bulldog knowledge but you could not be more wrong about the GSD.
> 
> I have been around GSD longer than APBTs and have never heard anything like what you just stated about this breed. What statistics say they kill more than another other breed? Are these the same ones that say Pit Bulls are killing more than any other breed? Or the same ones that say Pit Bulls are HA??
> 
> ...


Thank you so much.

I am absolutely baffled about the attitude towards the GSD.

I may not be experienced when it comes up to the Bully breeds but I'd NEVER in a MILLION years would make any of the claims that have been made about the GSD simply because, as a dog person I have enough common sense to know that these claims are not true and I have a very low tolerance for BS like that which is why I'm going to walk away.

Sorry, I came here to learn and not to listen to people that attack my breed for no apparent reason.

I thought that especially Pit Bull people advocate tolerance since they have to deal with all that BS, prejudices and BSL problems... guess I was wrong...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

American_Pit13 said:


> To the rest of those in this thread:
> 
> For how many of us protect the name of the APBT I am seriously ashamed of how many people have jumped in and made false claims to what the GSD is. I see nothing different about what people are saying about the GSD in this thread than what uneducated people say about the APBT.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

thanks kinda what I am thinking, no matter what I feel about any breed I will only go with facts that I have been around, not opinions since I know how over done they probably are, as with the pit bull.

Here is the thing I wonder the "facts" I always dispel about pit bull type dogs come from irresponsible owners of the breed doing and behaving and allowing thier dogs to behave a certain way. I can usually tell what the problem was in a news story about a pit bull attack, etc. I know where the owner went wrong. Is it the same with GSD? I mean to say its not human aggressive seems like if some irresponsible owner gets their hands on a GSD and you can have big issues just like when some idiot owner gets a pit bull type dog. I dont think it about what is more or less aggressive aka dangerous, but who the owners are. Acting like its a breed thing is a shame since that's what I try and get people to realize all the time.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

written in 97' 10yrs after I learned all about the GSD and origins..

AKC German Shepherds Are Wolf "Hybrids" 
By Ann Dresselhaus (3/21/97)

All dogs are "wolfdogs." The only difference between them (besides appearance and 
temperament) is the number of generations away from a "pure" wolf the individual canine is. 
The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows 
several pure wolves were used to "create" the breed and this was only 90 years ago! Similar 
events can be uncovered for Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, Belgian Shepherd types, 
and many rarer-breed "dogs." German Shepherds were recently the MOST POPULAR AKC 
breed. Imagine that - a "wolfdog" is the most popular working/companion dog! 
I think a key question to be answered is: WHEN does a "wolf" become a dog? 
1. Since the wolf and the dog are the same species, is there really such an entity 
as a wolf "HYBRID." 
2. Since all doge are descended from wolves, are not all dogs "wolfdogs"? The only 
difference between them (besides appearance and temperament) is the number of 
generations away from a 'pure' wolf the individual canine is. 
3. Are we really not just talking about 'recent' wolf crosses (the onus being on us to 
define "recent")? 
Many (but not all!) of the dogs we have today resulted from the PRIMARY domestication of 
the Old World Southern Wolf, a smaller, less pack-oriented animal than the Northern Wolf, the 
wolf we are most familiar with today and which most of the 'recent' wolf crosses have used. I 
say MANY dogs, but not all because many of the Northern breeds are the result of a 
SECONDARY domestication of the result of the primary with the Northern Wolves as "recent" 
as 90 years ago (documented in the German Shepherd). The primary happened thousands of 
years ago, but it is a mistake to think that that 
was the LAST time wolves were used in dog 
breeds.
I present the following research for your 
perusal: 
The original German Shepherd studbook, 
Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), 
shows several pure wolves were used to 
"create" the breed. Captain Von Stephanitz, of 
the German infantry, bought sheep-herding dogs 
(many of them field trial winners) from all over 
Europe in the late 1800's and early 1900's and 
bred them together to create his "ultimate 
service dog." He started a registry and stud 
book. His favorite dog, Hektor, he gave the first 
# (SZ 1). Hektor was 1/4th wolf. He was bred to 
every decent bitch around,the dogs 
originally imported to America were proudly traced back 
to him. Shortly thereafter, the German Shepherd Dog's (GSD) name was changed to Alsatian 
Wolf Dog. Their popularity soared for a while, then fell tremendously as the media 
sensationalized every trivial remotely negative event that occurred associated with a canine 
with the word "wolf" in it. There were arguments left and right: "Was the Alsatian Wolfdog 
(GSD) the best working/most capable/most intelligent dog that ever walked the face of the 
earth OR was Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the unpredictable/livestock eating/human attacking beast from hell? Sound familiar? Well, we know how that one turned out. The name was 
eventually changed back to GSD, things calmed down, and the GSD soon reached it peak at 
the top of the "most popular dog" list shortly after Rin Tin Tin aired. 
In the first decade of 1900, Von Stephanitz wrote a book (in German) about his loyal hard 
working dogs called The German Shepherd in Word and Picture, in which he documents the 
above heritage and pleas to the breeders not "to add more wolf blood" into his dogs as he had 
ALREADY found the IDEAL combination. In 1923, an American version was translated 
VERBATIM. Not many copies were printed and few still exist. [email protected] has a pricey 
(about $350) original and more may be found by doing rare book searches. In 1932, an 8th 
Enlarged and "Revised" (read sanitized) version was financed by English speaking "interests." 
All references to the positive wolf heritage were removed and most GSD fanciers have been 
denying RECENT wolf heritage ever since. 
Herr Strebel is quoted in The Alsatian Wolf-Dog by G. Horowitz as saying that he "has seen 
how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible 
phenomena which are considered to be the results of crossing with a wolf." He gives an 
example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who "absolutely had the temperament 
of a Sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house" (page 14, "Concerning 
the Wolf Cross"). He goes on to state that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of 
wolf's blood is lost in a "domesticated" breed. In 1912, Monsieur Henry Sodenkamp wrote in the Belgian journal, Chasse et Peche (The 
Chase and Hunt), that it is the French opinion that "THE WOLF LAID THE FOUNDATION OF 
THE ALSATIAN." (The breed was partially created in Alsace, France). 
Mores Plieningen, SZ #159, who was bred to the first 
Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath (previously known as 
Hektor) and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of 
every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a 
wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von 
Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line. 
(Captain Von Stephanitz bought Hektor Liksrhein and 
renamed him Horand Von Grafath, after his kennel name.) 
In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch 
fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of 
entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 WOLF crosses. 
(Note: [email protected] OWNS the actual Volume I 
and II of the GSD Stud books. I have interlibrary loaned the 
other old books mentioned and made copies of all the 
relevant statements.) 
So, I ask of you, are (AKC) German Shepherds wolf 
"hybrids"? 
For GSD fanciers and those interested in seeing the 
GSDs that came shortly after the wolf cross, there is a book out that few know about: Working 
Dogs: An Attempt To Produce A Strain Of German Shepherds Which Combines Working 
Ability And Beauty Of Conformation. It was first published in the 1930's and the breeding 
was done 10 years before that or so. It has been republished by DogWise now and is really 
inexpensive. This is a must read for breeders trying to create a line of any type! plus it has 
some of the oldest founding member GSD pics all in one place. It was a German Shepherd 
Dog "working dog" breeding project.
Working Dogs: An Attempt to Produce a Strain of German Shepherds Which Combines Working Ability and Beauty of Conformtion by Elliott Humphrey, Lucien Warner | 9781929242221 | Get Textbooks | New Textbooks | Used Textbooks | College Textbooks - GetTex

..................................................................................


> The ideal here is to keep the breed as the breed founder, Capt. Max Von Stephanitz created it; no extremes in conformation, a sound mind in a sound body.


German Shepherd Dogs for Family/Personal Protection, Police, Schutzhund/Competition
.............................................................................................


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

the GSD was my first love and IM not bashing them.. PEOPLE are just mad cause I said that GSDs attack and kill more children every year than any other breed... and its swept under the rug.. I've said it since I witnessed it first in Oklahoma and later state to state as I moved and of course the news that most miss. As far as origin, Im not off at all.. Someone may assume Im talking about some recent wolf dog cross and Im not, Im speaking of origin and purpose. I wrote a paper with complete history of both GSD and APBT asking people what dog they think is safer around children.. FUNNY ENOUGH .. NANNY DOG ... says it all... 



SO.. what bulldog type dog is best for her multi dog home?? A Bully, or a Bull Terrier, or a bandog.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

American_Pit13 said:


> WOW Stan, I usually applaud you on your Bulldog knowledge but you could not be more wrong about the GSD.
> 
> I have been around GSD longer than APBTs and have never heard anything like what you just stated about this breed. What statistics say they kill more than another other breed? Are these the same ones that say Pit Bulls are killing more than any other breed? Or the same ones that say Pit Bulls are HA??
> 
> ...


NOT AT ALL .. People need to re read my post and get a hold of their ego. 
I've mentioned before the many attacks on children by GSD police dogs that get swept under the rug and posted the articles, so how was that slander it wasn't and how is this slander against the GSD its not.. TIS the history.. also is the problem.. PEOPLE its called truth .. SWALLOW IT..

My karelian can herd as can my bulldogs, and by gosh all the alaskan huskies I had were good at it too; had one find 14 head of lost cattle in the boggy woods of paden, oklahoma .. 3/4 wolf mother import iditarod stock from alaska in 1995. So don't tell me wolf dogs can't herd...

you know what. There is a world of knowledge out there; you can pick up these tid bits of truth where it lies... in the fine print.

Ya'll have fun... Glad I could put so many in a tussie. Take care.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> NOT AT ALL .. People need to re read my post and get a hold of their ego.
> I've mentioned before the many attacks on children by GSD police dogs that get swept under the rug and posted the articles, so how was that slander it wasn't and how is this slander against the GSD its not.. TIS the history..


Seriously? Tell me, how do they get swept under the rug? Because the police is up in a conspiracy and can afford to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to shut up the parents? Now I know why they barely can afford to pay 8-10 thousand dollars for a K9 because they have to keep the parents quiet... boy how could I have ever been so blind...that's why they are constantly broke...

If that was true, if any of that was true there is no way that it could be kept out of the media and there would be an outrage throughout the country if not even the world.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

This is EXACTLY like how people want to dismiss the American Pit Bull Terrier and its fighting history.. People want to believe that people FORCED those hounds to fight rather than the hound WANTING to fight.. People want to dismiss that in a setting of proper handle, any hound to go cold or cur was not left for dead.. The fight ended. Unlike today where thugs just execute as they please for no reason other than being thugs..

It seems the older i get and the more people i run into involved in dogs, the more i am reminded how soft people are getting.. Lets dismiss the "bad" and replace it with all good.. Lets dismiss the facts and rewrite it the way thats more pleasant.

Bad, good, all history is what makes these working stock the hounds they are today.. To fully understand you must erase what is believed to be accurate and rebuild yourself..


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Firehazard said:


> NOT AT ALL .. People need to re read my post and get a hold of their ego.
> I've mentioned before the many attacks on children by GSD police dogs that get swept under the rug and posted the articles, so how was that slander it wasn't and how is this slander against the GSD its not.. TIS the history..


Your are talking about incidents that happened as fact of how a breed is...... Hmm sounds a lot like another breed that happens with....:stick:

I also never said anything about the history of the breed......


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

American_Pit13 said:


> Your are talking about incidents that happened as fact of how a breed is...... Hmm sounds a lot like another breed that happens with....:stick:
> 
> I also never said anything about the history of the breed......


Okay.. if GSDs attack more children every year than any other breed and to top it off they are police dogs.. thats not bashing.. calling them out because its the APBT attacks once or twice a year over the whole country that get FLARED in hysteria. Meanwhile I've watched all them victims get paid off or scared off and yes the system supports the law enforcement as in doing no wrong vs civilians.

I was talking about the history and genetic make up of the breed..


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> Okay.. if GSDs attack more children every year than any other breed and to top it off they are police dogs.. thats not bashing.. calling them out because its the APBT attacks once or twice a year over the whole country that get FLARED in hysteria. Meanwhile I've watched all them victims get paid off or scared off and yes the system supports the law enforcement as in doing no wrong vs civilians.
> 
> I was talking about the history and genetic make up of the breed..


Good Grief... people like you do more damage to any kind of breed than the media will. You can't possibly believe what you are saying. I've been around police dogs myself and NEVER have I ever seen anything swept under the rug.

If this seriously was a common practice it'd be all over the news. There is simply no way that any of this could be kept quiet over decades. Not with the way the media is nowadays. So I call it BS, period!


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Great posting Firehazard. Article is informative as well.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> Great posting Firehazard. Article is informative as well.


And most of it is untrue! Yet again myths from the Shiloh Corner.

But hey, they MUST know it better than any German whose family is involved with the breed for more than 5 decades.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> And most of it is untrue! Yet again myths from the Shiloh Corner.
> 
> But hey, they MUST know it better than any German whose family is involved with the breed for more than 5 decades.


We have all backed up our opinions with facts/articles, yet you fail to do so.

Im mexi-american and does that mean i know everything there is to know about donkeys and Chihuahas, No.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

what im saying is.. the isolated incidents concerning both breeds .. the APBT end up being a different breed altogether and I've seen from the police end of things wolf dogs that were iditarod type huskies get mislabled by law enforcement as german shepherds..

Im not some quack out the box and this isn't anything new. People see what they choose to see the diversion or the truth.

In 2009 the CDC stated that infact most dog attacks are labled pit bull or pit bull type when usually they are mistaking. Also stated that most dog attacks on children were by mix breed dogs usually being labled GSD or Chow. .. My aunt is about to retire shes a big wig in the insurance racket down in Okla, and my cousin is a tax and insurance type judge down there as well.. I got a good bit of info and wrote a lil paper for college and I posted all about it up here on GPB.

Im not bashing the GSD.. Im saying they attack more kids than APBTs .. Cause, well hell.. they do. Simple as that.. as far as insurance thats my point, I Know that most base their assessments from the CDC findings and the amount of MONEY LOST IN LAWSUITS.. Its not hard to find the police issue service dogs that have gone array and it adds up, I've found many that were shut down by the government.. LOL I asked my step dad whos a PC guru and retired WO gd 3 ... WTF? and he said its because it becomes secure information.. LOL secure information. So I lost many good online sources of the most current accounts however there are many still on the net already cached and I posted many of them here on GPB.

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=37482


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> We have all backed up our opinions with facts, yet you fail to do so.


What facts?

All you have is a myth from some Shiloh people who are the only ones that EVER claimed that there are full wolfs in the Zuchtbuch.

Do you have a copy of that Zuchtbuch? Can you back it up what they claim?


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> What facts?
> 
> All you have is a myth from some Shiloh people who are the only ones that EVER claimed that there are full wolfs in the Zuchtbuch.
> 
> Do you have a copy of that Zuchtbuch? Can you back it up what they claim?


Are you kidding me, you sound like the people from the religious cults. Everyone is wrong, but them.

Do i need a certain type of science book to learn science, no. There is other sciences books as well.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

exercpt from the zuchtbuch


> Was the Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the best working/most capable/most intelligent dog that ever walked the face of the earth OR was Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the unpredictable/livestock eating/human attacking beast from hell?? Sound familiar? Well, we know how that one turned out. The name was eventually changed back in 1977 to German Shepherd Dog, and over the last few years things have calmed down, and the GSD soon reached it peak at the top of the 'most popular dog' list .
> In the first decade of 1900, Von Stephanitz wrote a book (in German) about his loyal hard working dogs called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture". In this book he documents the above heritage and pleas to the breeders not "to add more wolf blood" into his dogs as he had ALREADY found the IDEAL combination. In 1923, an American version was translated VERBATIM. Not many copies were printed and few still exist. [email protected] has a pricey (about $350) original and more may (?) be found by doing rare book searches. In 1932, an 8th Enlarged and 'Revised' (read 'Sanitised' !) version was financed by English speaking 'interests'. All references to the positive wolf heritage were removed and most GSD fanciers have been denying RECENT wolf heritage ever since.


http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/wolf-dog.html


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> Are you kidding me, you sound like the people from the religious cults. Everyone is wrong, but them.
> 
> Do i need a certain type of science book to learn science, no. There is other sciences books as well.


If you want me to believe that there were full wolfs written into the Zuchtbuch, show me a copy of said book. That's the claim in the article, show me a certified copy of such claim.

If you can't provide that copy, it's nothing but a myth and made up!

Show me the proof and a copy of the first Zuchtbuch!


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> If you want me to believe that there were full wolfs written into the Zuchtbuch, show me a copy of said book. That's the claim in the article, show me a certified copy of such claim.
> 
> If you can't provide that copy, it's nothing but a myth and made up!
> 
> Show me the proof and a copy of the first Zuchtbuch!


I have cited every article i have posted. I dont know if you have attended college yet, but citing is needed to show proof.

As you have ignored every article i have posted, you will notice that the site sponsors/creator are in favor of GSDs, and there is no skew to the information.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Yes,, thank you KM .. Its primary my history with wolves and wolf dogs why I understand the origins and the complete GSD and relatives as what they are.. 

Tribes catch wolves, pick a tribe or clan.. whatever .. ONCE they breed the select wolves the offspring are referred to as dogs. The dog that barks but doesnt bite rein deer and goats but stay on em get used for herding and the ones that come out aggressive towards people well thats THAT venue, then others are hunters and pullers sometimes usually the sled dogs are hunting dogs as well. and they breed down and down.. I can show you iditarod dogs that started from wolf and pit bull .. 

SO .. if they didnt derive from wolf dogs.. where? If those dogs didnt attack the civillians or turn on their officer handler; who did? Why was it not national news is the question of the hour exactly.. my point. Each and every time it happened, like every supposed "pit bull" attack. The APBT is PURE Canine unadulterated CANINE in the purest form, doesnt get better.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> I have cited every article i have posted. I dont know if you have attended college yet, but citing is needed to show proof.


No, I want to see a copy of the first studbook. Show me the proof that wolfs are in the 1st studbook. Show me the proof, other than some shiloh person saying that Horand vom Grafrath is 1/4 wolf!

The only people that ever claimed that there are wolfs in the studbook is out of the shiloh corner.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

:thumbsup:this some good read'n


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> Yes,, thank you KM .. Its primary my history with wolves and wolf dogs why I understand the origins and the complete GSD and relatives as what they are..
> 
> Tribes catch wolves, pick a tribe or clan.. whatever .. ONCE they breed the select wolves the offspring are referred to as dogs. The dog that barks but doesnt bite rein deer and goats but stay on em get used for herding and the ones that come out aggressive towards people well thats THAT venue, then others are hunters and pullers sometimes usually the sled dogs are hunting dogs as well. and they breed down and down.. I can show you iditarod dogs that started from wolf and pit bull ..
> 
> SO .. if they didnt derive from wolf dogs.. where? If those dogs didnt attack the civillians or turn on their officer handler; who did? Why was it not national news is the question of the hour exactly.. my point. Each and every time it happened, like every supposed "pit bull" attack. The APBT is PURE Canine unadulterated CANINE in the purest form, doesnt get better.


The German Shepherd was put together from Swabian, Thuringian and Wuerttemberg Herding Dogs!

It is said that Hektor von Wohlen's grand-grandmother was wolf which is a myth because there is also talk about it being six generations back. So which is it? Can you bring me any kind or proof except for hear say?

There was a rumor going on that wolf-hybrids are immune to distemper and that is why they were crossed in but that was a rumor and there is no proof that it's actually true.

This is a herding breed. Wolf-Hybrids wouldn't be reliable enough to do the job.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Im sorry IM going to have to post another forum .

LOOK FOR YOURSELF.. If you know wolves and canine genetics at all the prove is in the pudding...

BUNDESSIEGERZUCHTSCHAU


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

no such thing as wolf hybrid.. hybrids are sterile such as mules. 

Yes the best herding dogs go back to wolves every time OF COURSE THERE IS A CROSS OUT.. thus is breeding, line breed inbreed and outcross for selective traits... 

EVEN THE FIRST MASTIFF is a European wolf X a Chinese/Indian wolf and the offspring brought back to europe.. 1000s of years ago... vs a couple hundred with GSD ... so all is there to see. 

So is your strain the only strain of dog that doesnt originate with wolf?

OH and yes.. I NEVER VACCINATED ANY OF MY WOLVES or F1 F2 wolf dogs..  and they were all ways healthy even when a parvo dog found its way near, pups never got any of the sort.. So there may be some truth behind that legend as well.. MYTH's .. LOL like a dog that looks like a wolf bites like a wolf but is the only dog that didnt derrive from wolves and is only a couple hundreds years in origin. Thats a myth.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

> DNA evidence
> 
> mtDNA evidence suggests that African dogs, such as the Basenji, have a high level of genetic diversity
> Before DNA was used, researchers were divided into two schools of thought:
> ...


lets get off books and step into genetics and dna


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> no such thing as wolf hybrid.. hybrids are sterile such as mules.
> 
> Yes the best herding dogs go back to wolves every time OF COURSE THERE IS A CROSS OUT.. thus is breeding, line breed inbreed and outcross for selective traits...
> 
> ...


Seriously? That's your argument? Boy I must be stupid... absolutely blind and stupid that I didn't know that the Canis lupus familiaris is a domesticated form of the Canis lupus lupus.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> exercpt from the zuchtbuch
> 
> Wolf-Dog


Nope! Not an excerpt. It claims to be an excerpt but there is absolutely no proof that the claim is actually true. Where is the copy, where is the link to the Zuchtbuch?

I'm telling you. The only claims that wolfs were used with the German Shepherds and actually in the Zuchtbuch are made in the English speaking world.

And maybe you should do the math before you believe claims like that. The math is off!


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Nope! Not an excerpt. It claims to be an excerpt but there is absolutely no proof that the claim is actually true. Where is the copy, where is the link to the Zuchtbuch?
> 
> I'm telling you. The only claims that wolfs were used with the German Shepherds and actually in the Zuchtbuch are made in the English speaking world.


Who needs a book when DNA testing proves the origin of the breed?


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Nope! Not an excerpt. It claims to be an excerpt but there is absolutely no proof that the claim is actually true. Where is the copy, where is the link to the Zuchtbuch?
> 
> I'm telling you. *The only claims that wolfs were used with the German Shepherds and actually in the Zuchtbuch are made in the English speaking world.*
> 
> And maybe you should do the math before you believe claims like that. The math is off!


about 340 million people speak English as their first language, and its the official language or more than 52 countries. Are you trying to say that its a language barrier and that wolf means something different to you as a German? I am so confused by your posts, there seems to be a lot of good details being posted that you are just disagreeing with, not stating facts or offering facts disproving their claims. Can you provide some research instead of just calling people names and in essence saying they don't know what they are talking about.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

ames said:


> about 340 million people speak English as their first language, and its the official language or more than 52 countries. Are you trying to say that its a language barrier and that wolf means something different to you as a German? I am so confused by your posts, there seems to be a lot of good details being posted that you are just disagreeing with, not stating facts or offering facts disproving their claims. Can you provide some research instead of just calling people names and in essence saying they don't know what they are talking about.


Yeah, right. Sorry but it was said that since WWI the wolf was crossed into the breed, linebred and inbred until today.

If anyone truly believes that BS I don't need to provide proof to actually claim that it's uterly nonsense and simply not the truth.

Seriously... if anyone believes that the modern day German Shepherd still contains wolf blood they couldn't be further off. It's the biggest nonsense I have ever heard in my life. To maintain wolf blood in the dog you would have to consistently breed back to the wolf or breed high percentage of the wolf. So saying that the German Shepherd was line and inbreed to the wolf from WWI UNTIL today... is the biggest gibberish I have ever read in my life!

As for proof, you might want to read "The German Shepherd Dog"  read the Stephanitz Book.

_page 46 _
* "One has only to glance at the following picture to be convinced that there is nothing, positively less than nothing, to be gained be the infusion of wolf's blood for the purpose of adding to the "points" of shepherd dogs. *

_page 138 which states:_
*"Horand's most famous son was Hektor von Schwaben, SZ 13, Champion of 1990/01, who was whelped from the Wurtemberg working bitch Mores-Plieningen, SZ 159. It was formerly reported that this bitch was the grand-daughter , or the great-grand-daughter of a wolf. This report was afterwards shown to be without foundation, and further enquiries proved the contrary. Neither Hektor nor his prgeny gave colour to this rumour in the external features or the charcters."*

Seriously, calling the Modern German Shepherd a wolf-dog... LMAO!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

OK wait, aren't ALL DOGS derived from Wolves in one sort or another? What does it matter if Horand's most famous son was Hektor von Schwaben was not directly linked to an actual wolf? 

Maybe I misunderstood but I believe firehazard and miggs research was talking about late 1800's early century, not current day.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Yeah, right. Sorry but it was said that since WWI the wolf was crossed into the breed, linebred and inbred until today.
> 
> If anyone truly believes that BS I don't need to provide proof to actually claim that it's uterly nonsense and simply not the truth.
> 
> ...


Im not quite sure if you understand breeding, but necessarily you wouldnt breed back to the wolf.

In order to add characteristics of another dog, you would have to simply out cross with your current dog, and line breed back to your lineage.

If your breeding to have a dog with more wolf, then you would breed to the wolf.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

ames said:


> OK wait, aren't ALL DOGS derived from Wolves in one sort or another? What does it matter if Horand's most famous son was Hektor von Schwaben was not directly linked to an actual wolf?
> 
> Maybe I misunderstood but I believe firehazard and miggs research was talking about late 1800's early century, not current day.


Nope:


> Your worried about insurance.. (snickers) *GSD German Shepherd Dogs attack and kill more CHILDREN every year than any other breed, most get swept under the rug cause they are caused by POLICE DOGS! I've worked with police dogs shipped directly from europe.. THEY ARE WOLF DOGS inbred and linebred and CROSS-BRED TO BE HUMAN AGGRESSIVE SINCE WWI!!!!! *PERIOD! Thats a liability not the dog that is going to kill your neighbors GSD for growling at one of you. LOL SO .. learn MORE


Since WWI? Tell me. When did WWI start again? Oh yeah, right. In the year 1914. That isn't late 1800. Late 1800 would be 1780 or 1790 but not 1914. 
1914 is the 20st Century!

My Family is involved with breeding German Shepherds for over 30 years. If there were still any wolfs crossed in, believe me, I'D KNOW ABOUT IT!!!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Nope:
> 
> Since WWI? Tell me. When did WWI start again? Oh yeah, right. In the year 1914. That isn't late 1800. Late 1800 would be 1780 or 1790 but not 1914.
> 1914 is the 20st Century!
> ...


no as in late 1800's like 1890's etc. No one is saying you are breeding to wolves. they are saying that the bred was founded from being crossed with wolves. Missed the WW1 reference but that is still early century, that's all I meant.

But ALL breeds initially came from wolves in once sense. Look at it that way and maybe you will find it easier to accept.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

ames said:


> no as in late 1800's like 1890's etc. No one is saying you are breeding to wolves. they are saying that the bred was founded from being crossed with wolves. Missed the WW1 reference but that is still early century, that's all I meant.
> 
> But ALL breeds initially came from wolves in once sense. Look at it that way and maybe you will find it easier to accept.


I know that all dogs are descendents from wolves. But to call the modern German Shepherd a wolf-dog is gibberish. You might as well call the Pit Bull a Wolf-Dog!

Or the Pug a Wolf-Dog!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Drei Raeuber said:


> I know that all dogs are descendents from wolves. But to call the modern German Shepherd a wolf-dog is gibberish. You might as well call the Pit Bull a Wolf-Dog!
> 
> Or the Pug a Wolf-Dog!


I agree with you lol that's why I don't know why this who thread is focusing on that. I think everyone would agree with you. Maybe I missed the part about why its such a point on this thread.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I call all Laikas, Huskies, Spitz, Nordic Herders, of working stock "wolf dogs" .. cause thats what they are from which they stem.. and when I say that I want people to look at the essence of what the dog or animal is and what it was bred from how long and what for..... purebred.. from inbreeding and linebreeding wolves and wolf dogs. INWHICH they still carry the dominant traits of the wolf, just turned into a loyal dog.. by inbreeding the wolfdog strain they LIKED... 

Just as Laikas are still very prehistoric as are working huskies and nordic herders.. and they are all wolf dogs very aloof and better at herding than any GSD... sorry.. collective terminology for function and merrit, just as all are bulldogs or bandogs or terrier .. depending on function and purpose and origin.. breeding for function doesnt take long breeding what works.


actually the pug is the worlds smallest mastiff  Chinese were masters of genetic manipulation... 

you wanna get all PC .. 
German Shepherd dont herd; there are far better shepherds.. the ORIGINAL WOLF DOG you dont wont to give merrit to WAS the herding dog. NOW that the breed is its own purebred strain directly down from WOLVES.. what do they herd? who uses them for that? Ooooout here in the sticks of Idaho them dogs dont last, dunno why they just don't. I hear about many a fallen dog in North Idaho; cause the coyotes up here are 55lbs I know cause Ol Turkey butt eats em like they were squirrels, he can kill a coyote without breaking the skin, like a jungle cat.. SO beggin the question what besides Personal Protection and Police or Military service dog is the modern GSD? cause 2 or 3 yote's will string a GSD up quick out here, yet my bulldogs go through em like a hot knife through butter and are natural stock dogs.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

ames said:


> I agree with you lol that's why I don't know why this who thread is focusing on that. I think everyone would agree with you. Maybe I missed the part about why its such a point on this thread.


Because of this statement:



> Your worried about insurance.. (snickers) GSD German Shepherd Dogs attack and kill more CHILDREN every year than any other breed, most get swept under the rug cause they are caused by POLICE DOGS! I've worked with police dogs shipped directly from europe.. THEY ARE WOLF DOGS inbred and linebred and CROSS-BRED TO BE HUMAN AGGRESSIVE SINCE WWI!!!!! PERIOD! Thats a liability not the dog that is going to kill your neighbors GSD for growling at one of you. LOL SO .. learn MORE


It's just not the truth.

Since WWI... if I didn't sleep in english class that means that since WWI, meaning for 99 years the German Shepherd has been crossbred, linebred and inbred to the Wolf. Meaning, the Wolf is still crossed in. 
LIE! Flat out LIE!

I also don't believe that there is a conspiracy of the entire police force in the US that sweeps attacks where children got killed under the rug.

The German Shepherd is not bred to be Human Aggressive either!
And maybe... just maybe Firehazard should learn to spell the breeds name before making such claims and false accusations!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Drei Raeuber said:


> Because of this statement:
> 
> It's just not the truth.
> 
> ...


If thats HOW YOU understand that.. .. :flush: Im all out of crayons.. My crayon mtn is empty.. Take offense, be mad.. get mad again after that... and have a good night.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

> SO beggin the question what besides Personal Protection and Police or Military service dog is the modern GSD?


Really?

You really need to ask the question what else the German Shepherd does besides PP, Police or Military Service?

You can't be serious.

How about:

Herding Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training

Guide and Service Dogs for the disabled

Obedience, Agility, Flyball, Schutzhund

Urban SAR, Wilderness SAR, Drug Detection, Bomb Detection, Nosework sport, Cadaver Dogs, HRD Forensic Dogs, Mountain Rescue, Avalanche Rescue, Dog Dancing, Therapy Dogs, Water Rescue (yeah, they can do that too)...

Yeah... I have super vicious aggressive man eaters, killing anyone and everybody in their way. Attacking completely out of the blue! 















Clearly, all they are good for is attacking people because they are wolf-dogs!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Thats a great video she/ or he who thinks I hate shepherds .. obviously hasnt seen my compliments on shepherd videos posted here previously.. HOWEVER unlike the IGNORANT I admit when Im wrong as it turns out.. TECHNICALLY>.. I was overlooking a MAJOR genetic discrepancy in the dna code of the dog.

ALL DOGS are from WOLF .. or Jackal (golden jackal or coyote) in origin HOWEVER the old world wolves were different from todays wolves there were different strains.. . ... You wanna learn something PG 73, bottom right corner.. THE GSD has markers from various wolf and jackal strains.. Have fun with that... acutally the whole thing is a great read.

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/90/1/71.full.pdf

are yours more wolf or jackal ?? the markers are there.............


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

She 

Thanks for the paper, I will read it. 

Those are my dogs. Primarly training for Wilderness SAR. 

I've seen Pit Bulls work in SAR as well. Nice dogs. Very nice dogs. 

You've done your best to come across Anti-GSD with your previous comments. How would you react if anyone said the same thing about the Pit Bull? Heck, thousands of Ignorant people say the same thing about Pit Bulls and I'd be just as much up in arms as I am about the GSD. 

Every single comment, argument and "fact" you read about any "Kampfhund". It's illegal to import them to Germany because of people like that. 

We should work together instead of discriminating!


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> WOW Stan, I usually applaud you on your Bulldog knowledge but you could not be more wrong about the GSD.
> 
> I have been around GSD longer than APBTs and have never heard anything like what you just stated about this breed. What statistics say they kill more than another other breed? Are these the same ones that say Pit Bulls are killing more than any other breed? Or the same ones that say Pit Bulls are HA??
> 
> ...


:goodpost::thumbsup:

I agree completely! I come on here asking for advice and trying to learn about misunderstood dogs. But instead I get attacked, my dogs degraded because of their breed, and ignorance about GSDs. I have heard some pretty nasty things from GSD people who are anti-pitbull. But the misinformation on here is crazy.

I don't know how hard it is to comprehend that my insurance allows GSDs but doesn't allow Dobermans, Rottweilers, and Pitbulls. I said that many times and people just comprehend that. Degrading another dog breed isn't helping your breed of choice at all.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I didnt attack you .. and I didnt disgrace the dogs.. I love GSDs.. FOR WHAT THEY ARE.

Working dogs they all have a purpose... I supported what breed you should get, as I raised my first game bred APBT with wolves  and have a schipperke and a miniature dachshund that do just fine.. but I can't recommend that for everyone.. so I recommended the best dogs for you and the dog.

pull what you will I reckon, I didnt back you into a wall.. You got offended cause I made the claim I got through my own homework and dialogue with personnel of the fact that GSD attack more children than APBTs.. WOW.. cause they do.. and again with the wolf dogs. read THIS ya'll might get a lil extra knowledge.

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/90/1/71.full.pdf


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> Sure is look at you go.........
> 
> The source of the stock is in-fact; roots itself in wolf dog ancestry with:
> 
> ...


The only ignorance is coming from you. You can't even spell the breeds name right! If you can't even spell the breeds name right then that their discredits you.

I work in rescue and we call the dogs that are mixes of all different bully breeds "pitbulls" it doesn't do any damage, because we don't know what that dog is, we just know its a pitbull mix. Like I said, if you don't like that I call them "pitties" get over it.

I have NO EGO at all. YOU sir are the only with an ego who thinks you know everything. I don't believe the pitbull hysteria at all. If I did I wouldn't have joined this forum now would I? What am I misreading? The fact that you state a ton of misinformation and myths about GSDs? It doesn't enlighten me. Your whole post is condescending, rude, and wrong.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> the GSD was my first love and IM not bashing them.. PEOPLE are just mad cause I said that GSDs attack and kill more children every year than any other breed... and its swept under the rug.. I've said it since I witnessed it first in Oklahoma and later state to state as I moved and of course the news that most miss. As far as origin, Im not off at all.. Someone may assume Im talking about some recent wolf dog cross and Im not, Im speaking of origin and purpose. I wrote a paper with complete history of both GSD and APBT asking people what dog they think is safer around children.. FUNNY ENOUGH .. NANNY DOG ... says it all...
> 
> SO.. what bulldog type dog is best for her multi dog home?? A Bully, or a Bull Terrier, or a bandog.


You are bashing them! We have every right to be upset because of the misinformation you are spreading about GSDs. All these "attacks" are NOT swept under the rug. Why haven't we heard of them? My friend lived across the street from two K-9 officers who kept their dogs at home and had little kids, and had ZERO problems. You are the one adding to the hype that GSDs make horrible family pets because they are police dogs.THAT IS FALSE. GSDs are great family dogs as well as working dogs. I know of many people who still herd with their dogs. GSDs were NOT bred to be "man dogs" or "man stoppers".If you actually read about GSDs you would know this. GSDs are GREAT with kids(I am not saying APBT are not good, because they are great with kids.) You are pretty much bashing the breed by sayign what horrible dogs they are.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> NOT AT ALL .. People need to re read my post and get a hold of their ego.
> I've mentioned before the many attacks on children by GSD police dogs that get swept under the rug and posted the articles, so how was that slander it wasn't and how is this slander against the GSD its not.. TIS the history.. also is the problem.. PEOPLE its called truth .. SWALLOW IT..
> 
> My karelian can herd as can my bulldogs, and by gosh all the alaskan huskies I had were good at it too; had one find 14 head of lost cattle in the boggy woods of paden, oklahoma .. 3/4 wolf mother import iditarod stock from alaska in 1995. So don't tell me wolf dogs can't herd...
> ...


What truth? There is nothing truthful in your posts. Who has an ego?? The only one with an ego is you. Where are all these attacks done by Police dogs? I have yet to read one let alone hear about one. Wolf dogs can't herd. The wolf dog people I know don't herd with theirs as they can't.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> If thats HOW YOU understand that.. .. :flush: Im all out of crayons.. My crayon mtn is empty.. Take offense, be mad.. get mad again after that... and have a good night.


Because it's exactly how you said it.

Might be a language, cultural thing but you said "Since WWI" and you said yourself that the police sweeps attacks and kills under the rug.

The definition of since is "From then till now".

How else was I supposed to understand that?

Since you are supposedly fluent in German you are welcome to explain it to me in German. Might clear a few things up.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

hahahahaha... ROFALMAO... I misspell oh so often and nothing I put up has a opprobrious amount of information backing it... justify your ... hahahaha :flush:

I didnt attack you or your dog.. that "ATTACK" is pointed at the media and insurance companies accompanied with bank and land owners of tender foot origin.. that so called looks out for you.... that cause all this hype and need for control............ I was actually "ATTACKING" the fact insurance companies think they have the right to govern our pets.. LOL 
REGULATING LIBERTY is ANTI CONSTITUTIONAL.. SO WOW.. how my words and point of reference has been spun. Anyone who know me, should know I don't post anything that doesn't have a plethora of history behind it. I did exclaim on the GSD attacks because they DO get swept under the rug when caused by law enforcement K9s. Thats not attacking the breed, thats attacking the IDEA of scare tactics and control. So if you think insurance and all is the whole way of life.. :rofl: okie dokie .. Like saying more APBT kill livestock every year than any other breed cause they're alot of overdriven untrained and unworked dogs... does that offend me .. NO.. I like GSDs but I need a guard dog I can leave outside 24 7 365 that will drive away, kill, or wake me up if Im home asleep... Or I would have one, and stating facts about them isn't bashing them, they just don't work out well up in these parts.. unless your a Border Patrol, Sheriff Dep, Police Off, or PP trainer or conisuer .. not much use for em. Labs have taken over other aspects for the majority of the work for the handicapped and special needs persons.

I got tired of livin in that world, it doesnt work.. I got some country and moved to Idaho.. Who needs all that pet insurance crap, I feel sorry for those of you who deal with that...


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> Okay.. if GSDs attack more children every year than any other breed and to top it off they are police dogs.. thats not bashing.. calling them out because its the APBT attacks once or twice a year over the whole country that get FLARED in hysteria. Meanwhile I've watched all them victims get paid off or scared off and yes the system supports the law enforcement as in doing no wrong vs civilians.
> 
> I was talking about the history and genetic make up of the breed..


Sounds familiar. I am pretty sure many anti-pitbull people say the same thing.

I highly doubt the police paid off every single parent. We would heard something by now.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> We have all backed up our opinions with facts/articles, yet you fail to do so.
> 
> Im mexi-american and does that mean i know everything there is to know about donkeys and Chihuahas, No.


You yourself went on to degrade my breed of current dog for some weird reason saying that GSDs were bred to be "man stoppers" and "to be the size of horses". You say you exaggerated? Well people exaggerate alot when it comes to BSL.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> hahahahaha... ROFALMAO... I misspell oh so often and nothing I put up has a opprobrious amount of information backing it... justify your ... hahahaha :flush:
> 
> I didnt attack you or your dog.. that "ATTACK" is pointed at the media and insurance companies accompanied with bank and land owners of tender foot origin.. that so called looks out for you.... that cause all this hype and need for control............ I was actually "ATTACKING" the fact insurance companies think they have the right to govern our pets.. LOL
> REGULATING LIBERTY is ANTI CONSTITUTIONAL.. SO WOW.. how my words and point of reference has been spun. Anyone who know me, should know I don't post anything that doesn't have a plethora of history behind it.


Right!

Because this was clearly directed towards insurances:



> Originally Posted by Firehazard
> Okay.. if GSDs attack more children every year than any other breed and to top it off they are police dogs.. thats not bashing..* calling them out because its the APBT attacks once or twice a year over the whole country that get FLARED in hysteria. Meanwhile I've watched all them victims get paid off or scared off and yes the system supports the law enforcement as in doing no wrong vs civilians*.
> 
> *I was talking about the history and genetic make up of the breed..*


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard;509007[B said:


> ]I call all Laikas, Huskies, Spitz, Nordic Herders, of working stock "wolf dogs" .. cause thats what they are from which they stem..[/B] and when I say that I want people to look at the essence of what the dog or animal is and what it was bred from how long and what for..... purebred.. from inbreeding and linebreeding wolves and wolf dogs. INWHICH they still carry the dominant traits of the wolf, just turned into a loyal dog.. by inbreeding the wolfdog strain they LIKED...
> 
> Just as Laikas are still very prehistoric as are working huskies and nordic herders.. and they are all wolf dogs very aloof and better at herding than any GSD... sorry.. collective terminology for function and merrit, just as all are bulldogs or bandogs or terrier .. depending on function and purpose and origin.. breeding for function doesnt take long breeding what works.
> 
> ...


For the first bolded. Right there you are MISREPRESENTING YOUR DOGS. They are NOT wolf dogs. If they have ZERO recent wolf blood they are NOT real wolf dogs. Maybe you should go learn more about wolf dogs. Wolf dogs make poor guard dogs, so I don't think they are very "aloof".

German Shepherds were bred to herd. Why do you think they are called German ShepHERDS.

The rest of your post makes no sense at all. I can hardly understand it.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

EGO... attacking and name calling... showing your anger and emotional dissatisfaction .. pointing fingers at me.. personally and all the while trying to say Im attacking you or your dog. You probably still havent read the DNA report from OXFORD University have you?

Everything I said I brought facts, what did you bring besides a bad attitude towards the truth.. One video inwhich was pretty descent, but mind you I am Working-Dog Kennels.. I open to learn something solid but you aint brought it. I've posted the OXFORD report on canine DNA and I have posted the source to the oldest stud book on the GSD.. email them and ask about the wolf dog in the early stud book..


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> I didnt attack you .. and I didnt disgrace the dogs.. I love GSDs.. FOR WHAT THEY ARE.
> 
> Working dogs they all have a purpose... I supported what breed you should get, as I raised my first game bred APBT with wolves  and have a schipperke and a miniature dachshund that do just fine.. but I can't recommend that for everyone.. so I recommended the best dogs for you and the dog.
> 
> ...


Yes you did. You attack and degrade the current breed I own and love you are attacking me. No you don't love GSDs. Your posts prove your ignorance.

Yea you raised your first APBT with wolves. I don't believe it. Same with your "facts" about GSDs attacking more kids than APBTs. I have NO IDEA where you got the idea that I said ANYTHING about APBTs being HA or anything. I didn't say anything that degraded or mean about your type of dogs. But I got my breed attacked and more misinformation spread.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

where do you get I bred my APBT with wolves.. RAISED with wolves.. OMG.. I was attacking the IDEA that people want to insure DA dogs but GSDs were viewed ok. I have a good history with working dogs of all types.
I never said you said anything about my dogs.. you slung personal mud pies firsthand... You both need alot of help because you remind me of some others once upon time who couldn't read the posts right and would assume the wtf ever. Be insulted.. You dont think I like GSDs.. Okay. Fair enough.. Cause I like the APBT BETTER! thus the APBT board. Yeah I know nothing about genetics.. Buahahahahahahaha! 
:flush:


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

My apologies if I misread but I did skim.

One cannot say which breed bites more.
CDC - Dog Bite: Facts


> A CDC study on fatal dog bites lists the breeds involved in fatal attacks over 20 years (Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998 Adobe PDF file). It does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic. Each year, 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities; about 0.0002 percent of the total number of people bitten. These relatively few fatalities offer the only available information about breeds involved in dog bites. There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill.


And also keep in mind if going by statistics, police dogs' bites on victims are reported. The dogs just get to jump over quarantine and such. Or so our local police force and others say.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> hahahahaha... ROFALMAO... I misspell oh so often and nothing I put up has a opprobrious amount of information backing it... justify your ... hahahaha :flush:
> 
> I didnt attack you or your dog.. that "ATTACK" is pointed at the media and insurance companies accompanied with bank and land owners of tender foot origin.. that so called looks out for you.... that cause all this hype and need for control............ I was actually "ATTACKING" the fact insurance companies think they have the right to govern our pets.. LOL
> REGULATING LIBERTY is ANTI CONSTITUTIONAL.. SO WOW.. how my words and point of reference has been spun. Anyone who know me, should know I don't post anything that doesn't have a plethora of history behind it. I did exclaim on the GSD attacks because they DO get swept under the rug when caused by law enforcement K9s. Thats not attacking the breed, thats attacking the IDEA of scare tactics and control. So if you think insurance and all is the whole way of life.. :rofl: okie dokie .. Like saying more APBT kill livestock every year than any other breed cause they're alot of overdriven untrained and unworked dogs... does that offend me .. NO.. * I like GSDs but I need a guard dog I can leave outside 24 7 365 that will drive away, kill, or wake me up if Im home asleep... Or I would have one, and stating facts about them isn't bashing them, they just don't work out well up in these parts.. unless your a Border Patrol, Sheriff Dep, Police Off, or PP trainer or conisuer .. not much use for em. * Labs have taken over other aspects for the majority of the work for the handicapped and special needs persons.
> ...


Wow your whole post is  and everything you have posted in this thread is  YES you attacked my dogs. You attack the breed I own I consider that attacking MY dogs!

Never ONCE did I say that the government has a right to goven our pets. Maybe you though. All I said was I can't own Dobermans, Rottweilers, or Pitbulls but we are allowed to own GSDs because of our insurance thats all I said and many people couldn't understand that. I don't think insurance companies should have lists of breeds we can't own. But in a perfect world only would be able to own dogs that we want. But sadly we can't, and for that I do have to worry about insurance.

YOU are the own saying scare tactics. You are pretty much saying GSDs are mean evil police dogs. Which is completely false. Where did I say anything negative about APBTs?

I don't condone that way of having GSDs as that is NOT right. I would NEVER leave my GSDs outside 24/7 365. GSDs have TONS of uses. They make great military, police, PP, border patrol, family companions, service dogs, therapy dogs. Labs aren't taking over anything. Many people still use GSDs in the field of service dogs and therapy dogs. Many people still get GSDs just for companions. You are still bashing GSDs as if they are no longer good dogs and are completely useless. That is attacking the GSD breed. They are still used, successfully, in many aspects.

I don't have pet insurance. If you actually read what I wrote, I was talking about home insurances. In this day and age with all BSL flying around many people need pet insurance. Lucky enough I don't need it.

Oh and thanks for bashing city people and those who have to use pet insurance. Sorry my dogs are my companions who live with me and prefer to be with me.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Celestial88 said:


> My apologies if I misread but I did skim.
> 
> One cannot say which breed bites more.
> CDC - Dog Bite: Facts
> ...


which I stated.. however I also stated I had a inside source to interview for a few minutes pertaining to certain topics. I also had at that time 2009 a good amount of articles showing "police dogs gone bad" in a larger scale than BAD PIT BULL articles for 2003-2009 which I posted half of these and you can find them Im sure following posts and time lines.

police dogs get retrained if they bite civilians and they get shot if they bite an officer while on the job.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

the only way anything I said attack your dogs is if you think its an attack on your dogs when I say GSDs are natural attack dogs.. 

cause they are .. Why would Bugsy Seigel and other gangsters want a GSD instead of a APBT cause back then DF was legal? So if Fighting dogs are the best attack dogs why didnt all those REAL gangsters use them?

APBT are natural game dogs or they are curs .. thats that.. whats to get offended? So whats to get offended by the statement GSDs are natural attack dogs? Sorry that what I've witnessed an learned is out side the box of dreams you live in.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> EGO... attacking and name calling... showing your anger and emotional dissatisfaction .. pointing fingers at me.. personally and all the while trying to say Im attacking you or your dog. You probably still havent read the DNA report from OXFORD University have you?
> 
> Everything I said I brought facts, what did you bring besides a bad attitude towards the truth.. One video inwhich was pretty descent, but mind you I am Working-Dog Kennels.. I open to learn something solid but you aint brought it. I've posted the OXFORD report on canine DNA and I have posted the source to the oldest stud book on the GSD.. email them and ask about the wolf dog in the early stud book..


Yes, ego. You are the one with the EGO. Because you are the one who thinks you know everything. Yes you are a attacking a breed of dog I highly admire and respect, as an owner of that breed, I consider it attacking. I don't need to read it as I don't believe it.

What facts? You brought myths and inaccuracies about a breed. Don't need to, what I said is true and out in the open that anyone can read. Drei pretty much said what I have been saying. I know enough people who know enough about GSDs that will say your "facts" are false.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> which I stated.. however I also stated I had a inside source to interview for a few minutes pertaining to certain topics. I also had at that time 2009 a good amount of articles showing "police dogs gone bad" in a larger scale than BAD PIT BULL articles for 2003-2009 which I posted half of these and you can find them Im sure following posts and time lines.
> 
> *police dogs get retrained if they bite civilians and they get shot if they bite an officer while on the job*.


It's getting better and better... boy oh boy oh boy...

Clarify* "get shot if they bite an officer while on the job"* please.

What kind of bite do you mean?

Any bite? Like when they are in drive and get your hand instead of the reward kind of bite? A bite out of frustration?


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> the only way anything I said attack your dogs is if you think its an attack on your dogs when I say GSDs are natural attack dogs..
> 
> cause they are .. Why would Bugsy Seigel and other gangsters want a GSD instead of a APBT cause back then DF was legal? So if Fighting dogs are the best attack dogs why didnt all those REAL gangsters use them?
> 
> APBT are natural game dogs or they are curs .. thats that.. whats to get offended? So whats to get offended by the statement GSDs are natural attack dogs? Sorry that what I've witnessed an learned is out side the box of dreams you live in.


Why get offended? Because your are spreading misinformation. I don't live in an dream world. You obviously can't read. What you witnessed isn't fact. I have yet to hear of Police dogs who have turned on their handlers, or attack children more than any other breed. I have yet to see or read about that there are no uses for the GSD anymore.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

K9Jessie said:


> Wow your whole post is  and everything you have posted in this thread is  YES you attacked my dogs. You attack the breed I own I consider that attacking MY dogs!
> 
> Never ONCE did I say that the government has a right to goven our pets. Maybe you though. All I said was I can't own Dobermans, Rottweilers, or Pitbulls but we are allowed to own GSDs because of our insurance thats all I said and many people couldn't understand that. I don't think insurance companies should have lists of breeds we can't own. But in a perfect world only would be able to own dogs that we want. But sadly we can't, and for that I do have to worry about insurance.
> 
> ...


and if you would read the whole post you'd know Im hinting... YOU CAN MOVE.. I got tired of all that and yes wanted to buy land .. go to Okla or Idaho, type states where BSL got :flush:ed all I can tell ya. I live nice and free in the mtns of N. Idaho and I dont know how you live in the country but out here you need a dog or two loose; to eat coyotes, chase bear and moose and two to protect my game dogs from getting got by some one who thought they wanted to trespass.. I use a Rott/Pit mix... a good lil mtn cur but bold enough to break trespasser. Because a GSD proved to be to HA and not ANIMAL AGGRESSIVE enough..

So.. yeh.. Whats dogs hold what service positions mostly as individual strains or breeds of dog? what about working dogs?

dogs used most often world wide as seeing eye dogs are Labradors. 
http://dbs.myflorida.com/resources/guide-dogs.php

and FYI Im all jollies......................


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

K9Jessie said:


> :goodpost::thumbsup:
> 
> I agree completely! I come on here asking for advice and trying to learn about misunderstood dogs. But instead I get attacked, my dogs degraded because of their breed, and ignorance about GSDs. I have heard some pretty nasty things from GSD people who are anti-pitbull. But the misinformation on here is crazy.
> 
> I don't know how hard it is to comprehend that my insurance allows GSDs but doesn't allow Dobermans, Rottweilers, and Pitbulls. I said that many times and people just comprehend that. Degrading another dog breed isn't helping your breed of choice at all.


I own a rotti and i have owned a doberman and more hounds than most hunters


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

One must also take into consideration the training, our local police force go to a horrid trainer, the dogs are not comfortable, more focused on avoiding a confrontation with their handler than their decoy and working, frustrated more so than usual, wouldn't surprise me if it led to a bite. They know diddly squat about dog behavior. Yet go a few towns over and the dogs are fabulous, stable, obedient, clear headed, fantastic workers.
I'm a bit confused over what exactly is being said that's offensive.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Celestial88 said:


> One must also take into consideration the training, our local police force go to a horrid trainer, the dogs are not comfortable, more focused on avoiding a confrontation with their handler than their decoy and working, frustrated more so than usual, wouldn't surprise me if it led to a bite. They know diddly squat about dog behavior. Yet go a few towns over and the dogs are fabulous, stable, obedient, clear headed, fantastic workers.
> I'm a bit confused over what exactly is being said that's offensive.


That, I can sign.

You'd see that with pretty much any breed if they were treated like that.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

> Because a GSD proved to be to HA and not ANIMAL AGGRESSIVE enough..


So did the Pit Bull. If there was no HA he wouldn't have attacked any human being in the first place. At least when you follow the theory that was said about the GSD.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Drei Raeuber said:


> So did the Pit Bull. If there was no HA he wouldn't have attacked any human being in the first place. At least when you follow the theory that was said about the GSD.


no infact not in my yard... the bulldog prevailed in more ways than you'd understand it seems. Because you didn't understand the statement your trying to quote. ... I even got some Hammonds dogs one full grown male which are supposed to be leary of man.. Heck No HA in my yard by my APBTs.. my curdog po and my Hooch blood bulldog Turk on the other hand.. no trespassing.. MY dogs out of my yard ARE NOT HA unless taught to be, everyone who has the luck to ever have a dog from me has even said so, they also said they've never would of thought a "pit bull" would be such a good stock dog; I have to remind them. BULLDOG..

The original bulldog was thrown into the pit forever dubbed Pit Bull... 









But hey propaganda only attacks one aspect of our lives the origin and modern species of the Traditional Bulldog....

Just like the early pics of Shepherds posted .. do you not see wolf? a picture is worth a thousand words.. What is the real bulldog?

Just as the real bulldog is the game bred APBT .. as you can see...

...... that is usually enough to remind people what the best all around dog in the world is.......


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

Good reading and tons of info on this thread...with the exception of a few emotional posts by k9 jessie.

Great debate FH and Drei!! This is MEAT


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> and if you would read the whole post you'd know Im hinting... YOU CAN MOVE.. I got tired of all that and yes wanted to buy land .. go to Okla or Idaho, type states where BSL got :flush:ed all I can tell ya. I live nice and free in the mtns of N. Idaho and I dont know how you live in the country but out here you need a dog or two loose; to eat coyotes, chase bear and moose and two to protect my game dogs from getting got by some one who thought they wanted to trespass.. I use a Rott/Pit mix... a good lil mtn cur but bold enough to break trespasser. Because a GSD proved to be to HA and not ANIMAL AGGRESSIVE enough..
> 
> So.. yeh.. Whats dogs hold what service positions mostly as individual strains or breeds of dog? what about working dogs?
> 
> ...


Umm if you read any of my posts I said I am college student and live at home and am NOT moving out anytime soon. And when I did I am changing insurances. I don't need to move to another state and don't want to unless I have too. I can find an insurance that will allow me to own any breed. Since the insurance I am covered by now won't allow me to own certain breeds I will be getting a new insurance once I am financially able to which won't be happening for a long time. And I never said I lived in the country. I live in the city.

GSDs are widely and commonly used as service and working dogs. I am think you need to get out more. I know of a litter that was just born and was bred to be service dogs and they were GSDs. Maybe you should go out more and see things.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

@Firehazard: I had the feeling you'd say something like that.

I can say the same about my dogs. 

I could pull up every single Pit Bull Attack out there and that there clearly is a reason for fatal attacks and that importing them to Germany is illegal. 

But you know what, I'm better than that. I don't have to degrade your breed and pull out the aggression issues that resulted through piss poor BYB breeding and the lack of structure and training from pet people, the lack to read their dogs and common sense in keeping dogs. 

Every dog attacks for a reason. Every single attack has a reason and it's never out of the blue. There is always a warning and it's very very rare that a dog ever attacks out of the blue, regardless the breed.


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

NoWuCmE... said:


> Good reading and tons of info on this thread...with the exception of a few emotional posts by k9 jessie.
> 
> Great debate FH and Drei!! This is MEAT


She is pretty much saying what I am saying. So what if I have emotion. It shows I care. And plus she is alot more involved in the breed than me, she has more access and knowledge about the breed and I applaud her for it.


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## Drei Raeuber (Feb 11, 2012)

K9Jessie said:


> She is pretty much saying what I am saying. So what if I have emotion. It shows I care. And plus she is alot more involved in the breed than me, she has more access and knowledge about the breed and I applaud her for it.


I had the pleasure to learn from the best. :cheers: :thumbsup:


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## K9Jessie (Feb 7, 2012)

Drei Raeuber said:


> I had the pleasure to learn from the best. :cheers: :thumbsup:


I can drink to that!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Drei Raeuber said:


> @Firehazard: I had the feeling you'd say something like that.
> 
> I can say the same about my dogs.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I've been up all night, just got back from my last 3rd shift... Mentally, not functional however all i am really going to say to end my involvement is that if you don't understand it, refuse to understand it.. Nothing can be said..

If anyone finds anything hypocritical than you probably don't understand the points completely and comprehending things differently than they should be.. I can't speak for the child attacks because Stan would know more about that side of things than i would HOWEVER the entire wolf discussion is truth.. Agree or disagree, its there and plenty of excellent information has been provided... Yet its never "good enough" as people are set in their own views.. Something new comes along they shut it out..

Good "debate", good conversations however its obvious nothing changes.. Which is fine, others can read this and make their own judgements..


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