# What do you think about rescues spending $1000-$8000 on 1 dog



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

So like the title says what do you think about this. 

I saw a post today that has a beautiful little female pit that needs knee surgery that will cost close to $4000..

I made this comment.

"I don't understand why when shelters are so overly full and low of funds how $4000 can get spent on 1 dog......You know how many lives that money could save, yet it will go to 1 while several 100 others die."

I recived very rude responses of course

"So, what is your suggestion, Holly? You think Athena should suffer or die because of the cost to heal her? So kill her to open up her kennel to save another possibly broken dog? FBR loves their dogs and they are no-kill, but you probably have no clue, because you've probably never been there or walked one of the dogs or played with them or bathed them or changed their bandages or given one red cent to feed them. That's ok though, because with that attitude....yeah...no."

"Oh, no wonder you don't care. You're a breeder. Bullies are dispensible to you."

"You know what I don't understand Holly? How people like YOU continue to breed animals and contribute to the pet overpopulation knowing full well rescues like us are working our asses off to save animals!! How dare you judge a rescue that is trying to save animals while you breed them. Athena will get the surgeries she needs no thanks to you or your non-existent support!"

"A breeder with that comment? Nasty. Folks, don't buy a pitbull from some crappy breeder (Holly) who would let a dog die to save money. Go to FBR!"



"Glad you think I am a breeder out there just pumping out puppies. Shows what you actually know. I own purebred dogs and do rescue. I like to compete. I am so glad you all feel the need to be nasty over a simple comment over why I disagree with letting 100's die over 1 dog. if you feel it is better that this dog have her surgery VS 100s of animals get help thats fine, you have the right to that opinion. However to throw insults and blame at me for caring about a much larger number of animals just shows how much you actually care for saving dogs lives.

BTW your ignorance is showing.

My 12 YEARS of spending all my own money to help and save dogs counts for nothing because I own purebreds as well. I have been doing rescue and fighting BSL for my entire 12 years in dogs so do not lecture me on what rescue is about.

I also never judged anyone. You people are the only ones throwing judgements and rude comments around. I love how you all know so much about me and my dogs.....Oh wait actually you don't. Just like those who bash this breed without knowing what they are talking about, you have all just done the same exact thing. Hope your proud of the image you are portraying. I also love how you all stated that I said to kill the dog. Good wsy to make up lies just like the media. You take what I said and turn it into what would make me look bad.. Such awesome reps for rescues you are."


So my point being am I the only one that care about how many can be helped?

This case isn't even my main reason for finding it odd to spend so much as this dog is highly adoptable. I have seen this done for 10+ year old dogs where several $1000 goes to a single dog. 

Am I really a worthless person for caring about helping such a larger amount of animals? I don't think so. 

So what do you think. Would you jump to give several thousand dollars to 1 animal when you know it can help so many more than that.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I get what ur gettin at and its hard to share that view with others sometimes. But its true $4000 for one dog that needs surgey, or lets say $1000 a dog each for 4 skinny dogs that need a flea and tick treatment, some good food and maybe some basic obed. Makes sense to me, but some people just don't think that way. Its like asking someone to push someone else in front of a train to save 4 other people. General public doesn't get it.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

its obvious these people are not in a position to make that kind of decision for this dog. nor are they in a position to judge you. prolly never picked up a turd or even gave a dime to help squat! thug bleeding hearts with an internet connection can never compete with what you've done for this breed Holls. You're at a much higher level than those folks lmnao


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

redog said:


> its obvious these people are not in a position to make that kind of decision for this dog. nor are they in a position to judge you. prolly never picked up a turd or even gave a dime to help squat! thug bleeding hearts with an internet connection can never compete with what you've done for this breed Holls. You're at a much higher level than those folks lmnao


We aren't in VIP Reddog, u might wanna watch ur . Lol


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Love ya Dave!

These people have made me out to be a mass producer who has never even looked at a rescue, because I stated that I care about 100's....

I really did want to know here if I am the only one who cares about how many can be help. We can't save them all, but hell lets make the biggest dent we can...


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## RealRasta (Jul 16, 2012)

I would rather feed 2000 homeless people for 1 day than allow that dog to be rescued.. But hey, that is just my *opinion*.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I hear you Holly. If its your personal dog I totally understand the need to raise money to save your dogs life. If this dog has no home and they want to spend so much money on one dog just to have it go back and sit in a shelter and HOPE to be adopted, I don't get it either. I also don't get their judgement and attacking you for opinion. So not cool. 

I kind of ran into this today myself trying to give the same argument. There were 4 dogs locked in a yard, neighbors knew and never reported them as abused until one of the dogs dies of heat stroke no water a few weeks back. The 3 other dogs were rescued, and 2 of the 3 have been deemed HA. They were just given a reprieve from being euthanized so further evaluating can be done on their temperament. I spoke up that if 2 of the 3 are HA then why put the dogs through training when there is no guarantee they can be fixed, and concentrate on the tons of other dogs with fear of DA that can be worked on and thrive in a potential home one day and put these abused pups out of their misery, in so many words. One response was "Oh so if a child is abused they should be killed too?" People are such idiots sometimes...


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I agree there too Ames. If it is HA put it down! There are to many good dog waiting for a chance why waste the time and space to try to work with one who is not even likely to be able to adopt...


I hate to be so realistic but really....... I mean its not like I don't wish we had all the funding and space and time to save them all but thats just not how it is.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

I despise RESCUE and SHELTER folks. They despise true breeders. To them BYB's and Real ones are in same basket.
All dog owners are irresponsible to them, as with vets too. 

For them to spend so much money to fix a dog that isn't worth fixing,
it's all publicity. Plain and simple. 

Good breeders, btw, choose the owners of their dogs...
In saying that, they make sure they sell them to people who will devote their lives to them.
So dogs of good breeding never end up in a shelter/rescue. 

So they'd be best to point their fingers in the proper direction. 
Low on funds, yet that much on a pup? 
Hell, I wouldn't pay that much on one of my own dogs.
Why? Because the cost and care would take feed and needed time away from the others.
Time I do not have to spare. 
Unless I knew a person with the time and money, I'd do the dog a favor, 
and let him rest in peace. JMO.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

As for a HA dog, 
first dog of mine that shows the slightest sign of it, unprovoked, 
will be taking a dirt nap.
And I don't care if it's injured, sick, whatever. 
One bite = one bullet, and will never be bred.

(I have heard of shelter goons, because the dog is good with them, it's okay. They keep it until the dog trusts one person. Waste of tax money feeding a cowardly man biting dog!)


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I have had this convo with a few others before as well. I find alot of bleeding hearts want to save all these horrible cases that if they were in loving homes would sometimes even just be put down. I probably sound so mean but to me it isnt always about having to save the dog, it should be about quality of life. For a dog to live a pain free happy life what will it take? operations, years of therapy, life time on special bland food? For an owner who has had this dog for years they may invest this but for shelters where they euthanize 1000's a year why place this one dog over all the healthy ones that are waiting???

I just get the feeling alot of times shelters use cases like these to make some money and gain attention, everyone wants to be the ones to say they own such and such dog that was featured on the news or from this horrible case. I think when funds are limited and are coming in from donations , I would personally rather see my money help 20 dogs then 1 sick injured 1 , if they have to put dogs down why not keep the ones who are healthy to begin with. I know I will get hate over saying that but it is how I feel about this.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

angelbaby said:


> I have had this convo with a few others before as well. I find alot of bleeding hearts want to save all these horrible cases that if they were in loving homes would sometimes even just be put down. I probably sound so mean but to me it isnt always about having to save the dog, it should be about quality of life. For a dog to live a pain free happy life what will it take? operations, years of therapy, life time on special bland food? For an owner who has had this dog for years they may invest this but for shelters where they euthanize 1000's a year why place this one dog over all the healthy ones that are waiting???
> 
> I just get the feeling alot of times shelters use cases like these to make some money and gain attention, everyone wants to be the ones to say they own such and such dog that was featured on the news or from this horrible case. I think when funds are limited and are coming in from donations , I would personally rather see my money help 20 dogs then 1 sick injured 1 , if they have to put dogs down why not keep the ones who are healthy to begin with. I know I will get hate over saying that but it is how I feel about this.


I agree with you. I would take it further, but it may earn me the rep of a scrooge or Grinch, lol. 
But a fact is a fact....BYB's and irresponsible owners are the ones who create this mess.
The rescue people are the victims in all of this. 
The adopters are the blind (unknowing) supporters for BYB's.
It's a revolving cycle.

My problem is when AC and BSL posse's attack kennel of innocent men,
and kill the dogs that have a true American history, that are worthy of the name ApBT!
9 out of 10 rescue dogs are a shame to the real breed. 
BYB's need to be attacked and their mutts put down.
I'd rather a whole shelter of low grade dogs eating taxpayer money be eliminated,
than for a single quality dog to be put down over the false image created by ghetto thugs,
man biting cur dogs of unknown background, and any other mutt.
Then use the money for a good cause:
All unregistered dogs be fixed or face heavy fines.
The breed will be better in the end when the idiots no longer possess them.
When the population of real ApBT's in the hands of the few and responsible owners.
But it will never happen. The BSL posse uses bad dogs to keep hurting the image of the ApBT.
The good dogs are the scapegoats.


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

I agree with you holly.. too many dogs dying to save that one... who in the end dies anyway.. kinda like the president taking care of all these other countries while ours falls to pieces.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I am really glad to see I am not the only person who feels this way.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

I've gotten in pretty deep with some of the dogs I've rescued. Martin cost the rescue (and me!) a pretty penny between his transport after the Hurricane, his heartworm treatment and his double knee surgery. We knew about the heartworms going in, they all had them, it's treatable. The blown cruciates were diagnosed after being in foster at my home and after the neuter. In for a penny, in for a pound, at that point. He wasn't just a dog, he was our dog (ok, MY dog) by then.
I don't understand rescues who seem to search out the sick and the lame when there are so many healthy dogs out there, just as I don't understand rescues who put up dogs with serious behavioral problems. I do understand when a dog becomes someone to you and not just another dog, and the efforts you will go to when that happens
That being said, they were rude to you. Most people in rescue become a bit crazy, I have noticed.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

When its your dog or a dog that is not going back into a shelter life after the surgery I understand. I would take a loan against my house for Xena. That dog means everything to me.

But several of these people even went so far as to say that yes this 1 dog because she is so sweet deserves this over the other 100's I spoke of. To me thats not what rescue is about. Do they really not think there are 100's of other sweet dogs out there.

They also couldn't separate the fact that I own purebreds and do rescue.. I was told:

"So you only rescue purebreds? Any really rescue would love all dogs"
"So you show your rescues?"

Like is it really that hard to understand "I own purebred dogs *and *do rescue"

Sometimes I feel I have grown cold. I have had to see so many die and so many abused. I have seen dogs just sit and waste away mentally from being in shelters to long, or lack of exercise and socialization. So I really just try and focus on what can be done over all. I am glad to see I am not alone with this thought of how much money goes into 1 rescue.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

maybe u should just tell us what FB page it was and we"ll all set em straight LOLOLOL


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

I agree whole heartedly with you Holly. Some people have blinders on and just can't see beyond their own noses.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Sometimes I feel I have grown cold. I have had to see so many die and so many abused. I have seen dogs just sit and waste away mentally from being in shelters to long, or lack of exercise and socialization. So I really just try and focus on what can be done over all. I am glad to see I am not alone with this thought of how much money goes into 1 rescue.


I understand what you mean by growing cold, yet perhaps it is in a different way than yours.
When I was a baby fresh home I was hooked on dogs from day one. Always needed to be around a dog.
Any dog. Parents had to keep a rope on me, to keep me from approaching strange dogs, lol. 
The ApBT may be my supreme breed, yet I do like all dogs in general. 
In fact, as I type I have two rescue strays, formerly abused, that I'm dog sitting for my GF while she's away on business.
One is a weener/chihuahaua mix, other a Jack Russel. 
These dogs were abused, and by their behavior. They get spooked at nearly all things.
They are SUPER protective of their food!! 
They lunge and nip at my grown male game-dog, who just ignores them, although I never leave him out with them.
He views small dogs as puppies.

I never told my GF, but I think she was crazy! She invested around $450 for each to adopt! (From a rescue!)
Another $1000 for training therapy!
And these dogs have lasting scars in their minds...that they will never overcome.
They are totally hooked on her, but took me two months for them to trust me.

There are thousands of other dogs just like these, maybe more.
Here is where I have grown cold. To me, they are suffering, even as they live.
Why must people get dogs they can never really fix?
And why can people not buy a good quality dog of any breed, 
for the money they put towards unfixable dogs? 
Why not put these dogs down, for their good? 
To me it's not cold hearted to put an abused dog down.
I call it a mercy, not a punishment. I call it wise, not cold.

And why on earth do good honest breeders get the blame along with back yard breeders for this mess?
That is unjust, unfair, and just plain wrong. 
If they'd put down the bad dogs, the sick, and the abused 
they would save so much money and be able to help good healthy dogs.
And save money!


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

I agree with you Holly  it only is common sense to save more doggies!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Goemon said:


> I understand what you mean by growing cold, yet perhaps it is in a different way than yours.
> When I was a baby fresh home I was hooked on dogs from day one. Always needed to be around a dog.
> Any dog. Parents had to keep a rope on me, to keep me from approaching strange dogs, lol.
> The ApBT may be my supreme breed, yet I do like all dogs in general.
> ...


That is the same way I feel. If a dog can't enjoy life as a dog by being overly afraid of everything, you have to have multiple surgery's ect I opt to PTS.

About 2 years ago I had to put down a male of mine for masses that where turning up in his intestines and causing bloat.

He had surgery before for them and we had to wait and see if they would return. Well they did, however when they came back they where inside where until he was in pain and bloated we had no way to know they were there. So our option was to remove them again, due to the damage they would possibly need to remove part of his intestines. He would not be likely able to hold his bowels any more, and they would come back. If they came back again I would not know until he was showing pain..I decided that was it for him. he was only 7, but I am not going to risk him being in pain just so that I can have him for maybe another 5 or 6 years. I just don't think that's fair. My oldest daughter learned how to walk from this beast, he deserved better than continuing pain.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> That is the same way I feel. If a dog can't enjoy life as a dog by being overly afraid of everything, you have to have multiple surgery's ect I opt to PTS.
> 
> About 2 years ago I had to put down a male of mine for masses that where turning up in his intestines and causing bloat.
> 
> He had surgery before for them and we had to wait and see if they would return. Well they did, however when they came back they where inside where until he was in pain and bloated we had no way to know they were there. So our option was to remove them again, due to the damage they would possibly need to remove part of his intestines. He would not be likely able to hold his bowels any more, and they would come back. If they came back again I would not know until he was showing pain..I decided that was it for him. he was only 7, but I am not going to risk him being in pain just so that I can have him for maybe another 5 or 6 years. I just don't think that's fair. My oldest daughter learned how to walk from this beast, he deserved better than continuing pain.


Being somewhat newer here, I always wondered what happened to Stack. Im terribly sorry for ur loss, Holly. But u are a better person for thinking of his well being and not putting urself first.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

::::COACH:::: said:


> I agree with you Holly  it only is common sense to save more doggies!


Okay Coach....I'll use you as an example, but try and be nice, 

"save more doggies..." Some people are just soft at heart, and weak. 
The "doggy saviors" are the water that feeds back yard breeders. 
They are the cause of over 90% of abused dogs that end up in shelters.
Shelters/rescues are the scapegoats, the bucket that catches all the unwanted and abused dogs.

Now, who is to blame? Sure, you could blame back yard breeders, 
who breed low quality dogs, as well as puppy mills....
But the real blame is on the buyers of these cheap dogs, or free. 
The quality of an owner is seen in the amount they will spend on a dog.
(To the credit of some, say my GF, that she paid so much for her dogs shows she had a true heart,
and believe me, she told me if her babies were hurt in any way by and of my dogs,
I'll just say I'd rather have been in Auschwitz than to face the wrath of her!)

I have said elsewhere, there should be a law passed that forces anyone that has an unregistered dog
to be fixed or face serious fines, and have animals confiscated!
If they can ban a breed, they can make this law!
And any dogs bred by a breeder must be marked with a tat to identify the Kennel.
This would stop careless breeding real fast! If a person is bit, the kennel will be named!
Not a breed, but a breeder along with the breed. Make sense?
Let there be a line drawn, a %, and if the dogs of that kennel reach a point above it
they shall be barred from breeding! (I'm speaking of unprovoked attacks/bites)
I originally thought of this regarding the ApBT breed, but what about all?
HA would be culled quick! Does anyone agree with that?

But most important, breeders would stop thinking of the green. 
A phrase will develop in their head, "if it;s mean, I get no green!" LOL.
They would also be much more selective on who gets pups from them.
They would do background checks, and know their income.
A good breeder chooses where his/her pups go! And doesn't make their living selling dogs!
To me, the best reward is the appreciation and care and happiness of the buyer.
Money doesn't last, but the friendship and respect shown to the work and money I put in the pups lasts forever.
While I'm not a breeder per say, I do like to now and then, if I'm happy with the breeding.
I do it only to preserve the blood I have. 
But I never offer pups to the general public, as these dogs are higher than pet quality. 
I have to absolutely trust the buyer 100%, and know they have handled this breed before. 
And I will never sell for under $800 in the future, for I know anyone who spends that much 
will surely value what they invested in. And to me, that's cheap.
The only reason to sell pups is to help feed the dogs I do have.
And the bonus is in letting others see and know how great these dogs are.

Hope I made sense in what I typed, lol. 
But a passing of that law would save much money!
When unregistered dogs were no longer able to breed, mutts will no longer be produced.
The only ones crying about it would be the lowlife abusers,
that will spend their money on junk, rather than a good dog.
Who will abuse what they paid a high price for?
And who would breed to another breed, when they know they have a top quality dog?
People seem to value what they invest their money in.

Would anyone protest this, that they would no longer be able to rescue a doggie?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

It killed me to put that dog down. I held him as he slipped away, the vet I used handled him with such care and compassion. When carrying him away after he passed he made sure to hold his head and all. They carried him like a child.

I have always had 1 AKC type male. It started with Money, then Stack and now Scorch. I love having these big monster looking dogs that are just the sweetest things. They get attention, people ask questions, which then opening things up for me to educate.

I took him out to a new spot so that he could have one last day of discovering and running and being a dog. All new smells and things to look at. I was so upset he kept trying to comfort me when in turn it was him that I was trying to comfort.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> That is the same way I feel. If a dog can't enjoy life as a dog by being overly afraid of everything, you have to have multiple surgery's ect I opt to PTS.
> 
> About 2 years ago I had to put down a male of mine for masses that where turning up in his intestines and causing bloat.
> 
> He had surgery before for them and we had to wait and see if they would return. Well they did, however when they came back they where inside where until he was in pain and bloated we had no way to know they were there. So our option was to remove them again, due to the damage they would possibly need to remove part of his intestines. He would not be likely able to hold his bowels any more, and they would come back. If they came back again I would not know until he was showing pain..I decided that was it for him. he was only 7, but I am not going to risk him being in pain just so that I can have him for maybe another 5 or 6 years. I just don't think that's fair. My oldest daughter learned how to walk from this beast, he deserved better than continuing pain.


That was the best thing you could do...he may be gone, but the happy memories live on.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Goemon said:


> And any dogs bred by a breeder must be marked with a tat to identify the Kennel.
> This would stop careless breeding real fast! If a person is bit, the kennel will be named!
> Not a breed, but a breeder along with the breed. Make sense?
> Let there be a line drawn, a %, and if the dogs of that kennel reach a point above it
> ...


The only thing I disagree with here is that I don't think the breeder should be held liable when a dog bites (Unless poor breeding is obvious). Environment plays a huge part in how a dog develops. Now yes we do are best to pick the best homes, but it doesn't always need up that way.

HA should be culled no matter what I agree. However if the breeder is the one liable we still have the same problem of the OWNERS of dogs not having to take responsibility for what they have done to a dog. A bad owner can ruin a perfectly well bred dog very easily.

As for those who get byb dogs I do agree that contributes to people breeding as long as they can get rid of what they have. They make money of what they can and give the rest away. When it comes to rescues yes adopt. It is not the rescues fault they are there and the dogs are already there so only the dog itself and rescue people are effected. The worthless breeder has already dumped their dogs.

I do think all breeders should chip or tattoo their dogs. As a good breeder you should at all times know where your puppies are and how they are doing. Cull when needed and take responsibility for what you have produced, but that doesn't mean taking the fall for a bad owner.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> It killed me to put that dog down. I held him as he slipped away, the vet I used handled him with such care and compassion. When carrying him away after he passed he made sure to hold his head and all. They carried him like a child.
> 
> I have always had 1 AKC type male. It started with Money, then Stack and now Scorch. I love having these big monster looking dogs that are just the sweetest things. They get attention, people ask questions, which then opening things up for me to educate.
> 
> I took him out to a new spot so that he could have one last day of discovering and running and being a dog. All new smells and things to look at. I was so upset he kept trying to comfort me when in turn it was him that I was trying to comfort.


My gosh Holly. That seriously made me tear up here in my lunch room at work. The sadness can be seen in ur face, and u can see the concern in Stack's eyes. Truly touching.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> The only thing I disagree with here is that I don't think the breeder should be held liable when a dog bites (Unless poor breeding is obvious). Environment plays a huge part in how a dog develops. Now yes we do are best to pick the best homes, but it doesn't always need up that way.
> 
> HA should be culled no matter what I agree. However if the breeder is the one liable we still have the same problem of the OWNERS of dogs not having to take responsibility for what they have done to a dog. A bad owner can ruin a perfectly well bred dog very easily.
> 
> ...


For temperament it is around 80% hereditary, 20% environmental. 
But I wasn't so much saying the breeder would be liable...just it be recorded which kennel bred the dog.
This would be useful if, let's say, kennel x has 5 bites in one year,
while kennels a, b, c, and d, have none. Make sense?
Also, it would really make people more selective on where they sell their dogs.
And not to be prejudice, but low income people are the majority of the abusers,
the ones that won't pay for a dog.
I sold to the public on one breeding years ago, pups from a cross I did, less dominant on the bottom.
This is where I learned the lengths people will go to to try and con a breeder.
I offered them at a discount price, Half off, due to a large litter (10, 4,5,6 the avg of the straight blood.)
The scum that came to me, you would not believe! 
7 or 8 all had kids with B-days, lol. "Could I get it for half since it's my kids B-Day?" 
Others wrote novels about the dog they had but died of cancer! 
One woman, "Me and my two kids are all alone, and would love to have a companion, could you please drop the price, 
as I have trained pitbulls at rescues, and can make them nice, and get along with other dogs"
(I told them the pups would be animal aggressive)
I literally told her these are not shelter mutts! They are game dogs!
"Oh my, you mean you abuse your dogs and make them fight?"
Click, I hung up and blocked her from calling. She knew nothing of the genetics of a dog.
You can't train out what they are born with. 
Turns out, she was an animal hoarder!

What did all who called have in common? (Besides never even hearing the breed called ApBT!)
They were low income, couldn't feed the brand I required buyers to have upon pick up.
All my dogs have ever had is Purina Pro Plan Chicken and Rice, Shredded blend. 
To switch to low quality feed would affect their digestive systems greatly. 
A large bad costs around $40 a month, and if they can't spend an avg of $10 a week,
that tells me they aren't serious of the well being of a pup.
And most low income people will spend the same amount they don't have on feed,
for a bag of dope every week! That's $160 a month for dope! 
And $40 a month is too expensive!? Get real.....

But, if I sold pups to the public again, I would never want my dogs to end up on a bite list,
if an attack was unprovoked. They are natural guardians, and at night can be protective.
I always know when somebody is here long before a bell rings, lol. 
I know my dogs love children, and are human friendly
But for the record, a couple low income people I took a chance on.
They did great and always call me with any questions. I got to see the pups develop through pics,
and they are always calling if their dog does something new.
But they were also progressive people...going to school to improve their life.
They weren't like others who are too lazy to get a job, collect welfare, 
and blame everyone else for their problems.
And I told them in the future, since they have stayed in touch, 
I would allow them to buy another pup, when the one they have is gone.

So don't you agree, we control the environment we let our pups go to.
And I make a contract be signed, any dog they can't keep, for unexpected reason,
shall be returned to me. I think putting a good dog in a shelter is cruel.
I would put mine down before giving to a shelter.
Besides, the shelter would put them down anyway. They can never be trained to go to a dog park,
and would be beasts surrounded by strange dogs! Some can climb fences, and jump anything 6 foot or lower, from sitting position.

And we both know byb's only make money because they don't provide the needed meds and other accessories needed,
in order to raise a proper litter. Pups off byb's come with a high vet bill, more often than not.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Goemon said:


> For temperament it is around 80% hereditary, 20% environmental.
> But I wasn't so much saying the breeder would be liable...just it be recorded which kennel bred the dog.
> This would be useful if, let's say, kennel x has 5 bites in one year,
> while kennels a, b, c, and d, have none. Make sense?
> ...


Ok yes I do agree to tracking dogs that way. I just feel very strongly on owners being responsible as I feel environment plays a much much larger part than 20%

My dogs as well go under hefty contract. As all dogs should. I fully agree that something need to be done about back yard breeding..However figuring out what to do without making laws that in the end hurt everyone is hard. People will not take responsibility themselves and the Government can't be trusted to help with an issues without screwing people over.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Goemon said:


> *For temperament it is around 80% hereditary, 20% environmental..*


If environmental played a larger role, most of these Bulldog type dogs you see as strays or picked up from being near starved, beaten, never socialized or poorly socialized, victim of thugs attempting to "dog fight", etc wouldn't be able to be rehabbed and re-homed..

In reality, most can in fact eventually be re-homed even under poor breeding due to the soundness genetics have provided through men that continued tradition with such integrity and thorough practices.

A sound mind through genetics is far harder to break, particularly in the case of Bulldogs as history has shown through modern ages.. A sound dog is not impossible to be broken, however theres a reason that these hounds can endure the idiotic situations for so long while still remaining trustful.. There is also a reason that once the heart has fallen, it takes little time to redeem..

If you take just a few generations of , well the end result is always the same.. You also breed away from traditional instills.. You begin to change not only the dog itself but can easily lose the consistency of what makes the breed superior.. AKA, you can easily create nervous fear biting, HA, poor structure, zero use animals..

This is something i have found years ago and firm, evidence is abundant. I've also said it on here with often mixed opinions following, "all in how you raise them" is foolish statement all together..


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

KMdogs said:


> "all in how you raise them" is foolish statement all together..


Well this the majority can agree with. I still feel environment plays a very large part, but "Its all how you raise them" is a crock. I am of course not saying that breeding is not a large part as well, because of course it is. All those strays are not normally well bred so I don't think their breeding is what keeps them friendly.

Its the dogs who are locked up away from people, get no socialization or training that are most often the ones that become seriously HA.

Being as I have produced 2 fear bitters ( those 2 PTS rest of litter altered) I know that a bad breeding can happen. Their environment was fine, they were not. But it works both ways. Every dog is different and without knowing what has happened with a dog telling where its aggression comes from is like guessing bloodlines. Sometimes you may be right, but without something to back it up you'll never know exactly what caused it.

This is why I do agree with the tracking like Geomon said. Then if you are having several aggressive dogs from multiple litters coming from 1 breeder you know they are not culling or taking consideration to what they are breeding.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> Well this the majority can agree with. I still feel environment plays a very large part, but "Its all how you raise them" is a crock. I am of course not saying that breeding is not a large part as well, because of course it is. All those strays are not normally well bred so I don't think their breeding is what keeps them friendly.
> 
> Its the dogs who are locked up away from people, get no socialization or training that are most often the ones that become seriously HA.
> 
> ...


Typically if nothing extreme is involved environmentally speaking and you throw HA, unsound, fearful pups it almost always still has to do with genetics.. Not always is it sire/dam, as you know the following 4 - 6 generations also play a vital role in overall outcomes.. Naturally, how the dogs are bred, line, out crossed, etc.. Much goes into the pot of pups which to keep it simple..

We all know game dogs can throw curs, curs can throw game dogs, a proven hound in X abilities doesn't mean pups are immediately proven X dogs.. They must prove themselves.

Out of my own experiences through training, study, etc.. Throwing unsound nature pups a good 85% of the time is a resurface or throw back, if you will of something that is in the genetics of the dog.. Either involving sire, dam or both.. Or generations behind sire, dam or both.

Of course, by chance you can just end up throwing a few "bad" pups however where does these traits come from? Genetic mutations do occur, however assuming the pups involved from x and y on "X" yard is from knowledgeable folk and experienced.. This will reduce the mutation front drastically, still occurs of course but the %s are often low on the grand scale.

In other words, far often than not your example still goes back to genes that make up the animal.

I have personally had my hands on a Bulldog that was severely mentally abused, never worked, poor nutrition and used as an amateur "bait dog".. Didn't keep the animal but one of the few i've been directly involved with (means and time) of the rehabilitation process.. This said dog was 3 years old, 3 years lacking virtually everything an animal needs.. Fearful, signs of HA, pure wreck.. Took about 4 months with a slow and steady process to make a virtual 100% turn around, 4 months reversed 3 years of garbage.. Was this environmental or genetic foundation of soundness?

It boils back down to genetics, environmentally the odds should have been there. Entirely.

We can go in circles, if your not willing to reconsider your thoughts on the matter you do so by your reasoning(s) and potentially your own experiences. However, i would encourage you by any means to really re-evaluate to some degree by your own curiousness.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I don't think your seeing that I do agree on genetics playing a huge part. I just don't agree that environment plays such a small part as 20%.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

@ Goemon....um...ok thanks for using my choice of words as an example. Lol! Just because I used tHe word "doggies" doesn't mean I am a softie...though I suppose you might not have thought I was..Lol but I do understand and agree with your point for the most part  *most* part...I actually agree with Holly.


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

::::COACH:::: said:


> @ Goemon....um...ok thanks for using my choice of words as an example. Lol! Just because I used tHe word "doggies" doesn't mean I am a softie...though I suppose you might not have thought I was..Lol but I do understand and agree with your point for the most part  *most* part...I actually agree with Holly.


You're welcome, COACH. 

Ha, you caught me mocking you by using "doggies" myself, lol. 
But nothing wrong with a good heart towards dogs. Heck, I used that phrase as a kid myself. upruns:

I knew you would agree with Holly, although she herself agrees with me to the most part.
How did I know? A woman always sides with a woman!

Okay okay, I'll give you slack on the softie part.  :angeldevi:stick:


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## MamaTank (Jun 12, 2011)

While I obviously have no issue with rescue, seeing as I have fostered, adopted, and such... it does really irritate me when the bleeding hearts start screaming about needing money to save/medically treat/ rehab some of these extreme cases. It's gotten considerably worse since the Patrick case. Every (beating on death's door) starved/brutally beaten/etc. dog "can be saved" when in reality, there are millions of healthier, sounder, less costly dogs that could be saved with so much less money. This push for "no kill" really irritates me, since most of them do not see the major issue that I see. Not every dog can be saved-- even with no kill. There is not space enough, resources enough, or PEOPLE WILLING enough. I occasionally get into it on FB with people who think that a Pit Bull type dog with a bite history can be "rehabbed", when I simply have one answer for a man biter. 

But what astounds me is that most of these people are screaming for donations for these horribly sick (broken, etc) dogs... yet there is no home lined up for the dog. There are a lot of people who think they are doing good, but to what extent? Save a dog that was thrown off a balcony, has 4 broken legs and a crushed hip-- for a life of pain and rehabilitation? NO! 
Why not save that perfectly healthy dog that just needs a danged home? Not sensational enough, apparently. The other one that irritates me are the people who take in the VERY deformed, VERY broken dogs and make them a HUGE deal. Like a Chihuahua who was born with Hydrocephalus and a host of other problems due to bad breeding, made her undergo all kinds of treatments, live with tubes all over her, and FORCE her to stay alive for 2 years before her body finally gave out completely. That's cruelty to me. Pure and unadulterated cruelty.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

I also foster dogs, it truly depends on the rescue organization. Many are just as bad as backyard breeders when it comes down to it. But there are also rescues that truly do care about dogs, not just making money. The NYC shelters are full of puppies and very adoptable dogs, yet they put all of these highly adoptable dogs on the kill list. The not-so-adoptable are not on the kill list! So when a family goes in to the shelter looking to adopt that sweet friendly 6 month old puppy they are told that the dog is on the kill list and that ony a rescue organization can pull the dog. They have a list of rescues that will pull the dog and almost all of these charge around $$250-400 for their adoptions. So the family now has to go through the rescue's adoption process/fees as opposed to the NYC shelter which is like $20 for a dog....do you see the money hungry scums that they can be?! Ugh! So in the end many highly adoptable dogs are killed.

Haha, Goemon I side with her because I agree..20% seems like a small percentage (that environment plays). Heck I agree with a lot of men on here  if the dog is a genetically sound dog should it not be able to bounce back after a life of abuse? but anyway, carry on!


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Haha, Goemon I side with her because I agree..20% seems like a small percentage (that environment plays). Heck I agree with a lot of men on here  if the dog is a genetically sound dog should it not be able to bounce back after a life of abuse? but anyway, carry on!


Okay...I do agree to disagree on matters such as these...but the shoes I stand in are different than yours.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

I just read a story on FB about Patrick the Pit Bull. Has anyone else read this? I c an't seem to link it on my phone, but it was under The Patrick Miracle on FB. This poor pup was starved for who knows how long and then thrown down the garbage shute 19 stories where building workers found him and called AC. In this story AC sounds like they are on the dogs side. They raised $30k  for his vet bills!!!! Long story short nearly a year later, dog is healthy, court case is not finished, and jerk judge wont give the AC custody of the dog. They have to file for it after the case which at that point the original owner can do the same. So please tell me what the hell did they spend $30k on? For what? How many other dogs could have been helped for that amount?!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> I just read a story on FB about Patrick the Pit Bull. Has anyone else read this? I c an't seem to link it on my phone, but it was under The Patrick Miracle on FB. This poor pup was starved for who knows how long and then thrown down the garbage shute 19 stories where building workers found him and called AC. In this story AC sounds like they are on the dogs side. They raised $30k  for his vet bills!!!! Long story short nearly a year later, dog is healthy, court case is not finished, and jerk judge wont give the AC custody of the dog. They have to file for it after the case which at that point the original owner can do the same. So please tell me what the hell did they spend $30k on? For what? How many other dogs could have been helped for that amount?!


oke:oke: I mean seriously!! These people don't care about the animals, they care about being in the spot light of helping animals. This kind of thing imo is all about publicity. Real rescues and real animal lovers would be trying to help as many animals as they can IMO. Not getting glorified over 1 dog.

This was also my point with the Lennox case. You know how many of these people will drop off trying to help animals when there isn't the spot light affect that the Lennox case got? I am very against what happened with Lennox, but WAY to many "animals lovers" are looking to be part of something big, rather than actually trying to fix the problems with overpopulation, breed specific laws, and abused animals. After Lennox passed you know how many people went home, photoshopped their "I am Lennox" pics and that was the end of what they are doing to help end BSL. Until the cameras and newspapers come out again with a major rescue cases its the same thing, something gets into the news and all of a sudden everyone is all for the poor animals. News gets old, they go back to their normal lives.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Exactly my thought on reading this. I understand minor surgery and mange treatment. That kind of thing, but this seems to be a bit much. I know if Chako (the local rescue I support) raised that much money it would go towards their building they are in need of, so they can help MORE animals. Not towards one dog. ....


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

OMG it's absolutely crazy!!!!! People will do anything to get their spot in the paper on the news....


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## MamaTank (Jun 12, 2011)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> I just read a story on FB about Patrick the Pit Bull. Has anyone else read this? I c an't seem to link it on my phone, but it was under The Patrick Miracle on FB. This poor pup was starved for who knows how long and then thrown down the garbage shute 19 stories where building workers found him and called AC. In this story AC sounds like they are on the dogs side. They raised $30k  for his vet bills!!!! Long story short nearly a year later, dog is healthy, court case is not finished, and jerk judge wont give the AC custody of the dog. They have to file for it after the case which at that point the original owner can do the same. So please tell me what the hell did they spend $30k on? For what? How many other dogs could have been helped for that amount?!


Yeah I mentioned it briefly in my precious post (..."the Patrick case") 
The whole thing started this trend of trying to save dogs that normally would have been PTS-- the KIND thing to do, IMO. Especially with the dog is nothing but bones. Also IMO-- they would do better to let that poor dog be adopted, instead of keeping him in limbo. Good, you saved him, it wasn't a miracle, it was the vet's work. Now let him live in freaking peace!


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

A hard part of being a rescuer/breeder/or owner in general is knowing when it is time to put one down. Some people never get it.


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