# Sticky  "Game" Testing



## Daemonus

Now caninerocks' post got me thinking.

How does one test for "game".

I know the old / traditional way. I also know of hog hunting, which though daunting is usually a pack of dogs to a hog.

Are there any other ways to do it?

I mean some might say schutzhund but in some countries you can't train your dog in Schutzhund without a pedigree [which would eliminate every BYB dog there is].

Just curious.


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## caninesrock

Speaking of that, what happened to my thread? People had some good explainations about gameness in there.

Also, what is Schutzhund?

If I remember correctly, gameness was defined by a dog not wanting to quit even when things get hard. So, I would say its any kind of (legal) work or sport that a dog does well even if they start to get tired like weight pulling, agility, hunting,etc.


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## SMiGGs

flirtpole lol


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## Daemonus

SMiGGs said:


> flirtpole lol


oke: Unless you use a firt pole in another means that's not testing game, that's raising the dog's prey drive. Or a way to excerise.


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## Sucker For A Rednose

Daemonus said:


> oke: Unless you use a firt pole in another means that's not testing game, that's raising the dog's prey drive. Or a way to excerise.


:stupid:
Trust me, he was joking.
Hence the "lol" behind it.


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## Daemonus

Sucker For A Rednose said:


> :stupid:
> Trust me, he was joking.
> Hence the "lol" behind it.


:hammer: Oh I know but what's the chance caninerocks whom also posted here would also know.


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## caninesrock

Daemonus said:


> :hammer: Oh I know but what's the chance caninerocks whom also posted here would also know.


I can tell when someone's joking,but I don't know what flirtpole is. Sounds like "flirting". Lol.


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## chrisoc

its a pole thats bendy and sort of whippy like a horse whip with something on the end of it like fox tail ,rabbit,skin sock or whatever ur dog chases and u just get the dog to follow to its used to pan the dog out(condtion him ) and can in some causes increase prey drive


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## caninesrock

chrisoc said:


> its a pole thats bendy and sort of whippy like a horse whip with something on the end of it like fox tail ,rabbit,skin sock or whatever ur dog chases and u just get the dog to follow to its used to pan the dog out(condtion him ) and can in some causes increase prey drive


Oh. Ok. It sounds like playing fetch kind of,but with the "ball" attached to a string. Doesn't sound hard for the dog to do at all. More like a fun game than a test of a dog's perserverence. Thanks for letting me know what it is.


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## redog

use the search option for "flirt pole vids". there is a lot of good examples here
it doesnt test anything btw


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## ames

Its more of an option if it increases prey drive or not. I tend to favor that if your dog has prey drive, not that using one does anything to increase it when used properly. the key is always letting him "win" and commanding him to drop. Its more of a training tool IMO that something that could create or exceed drive.

Its really easy to make. I got some PVC pipe and a wire that I crimped on one end so I can pull it in reverse through the pipe. The other end has a mountain hook that I attach stuff too. Very easy to hurt your dog by making him jump too high or swatch directions too fast, they can pull something, etc. There are plenty of great threads that discuss flirt poles and spring poles. Great exercise.


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## Jared

caninesrock said:


> I can tell when someone's joking,but I don't know what flirtpole is. Sounds like "flirting". Lol.


google is your friend for both questions


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## Celestial88

I wouldn't consider Schutzhund "game" testing by any means. It does test the dog's abilities, temperament, and such yes, but not whether or not they'll keep on fighting despite serious injuries.


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## SMiGGs

Make your dog play monopoly with you, and test to see if he wins. lol


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## SMiGGs

SMiGGs said:


> Make your dog play monopoly with you, and test to see if he wins. lol


Game is when you put your dog in the [] in which its only duty is survival.

Other than that the closest thing to game testing, is hog hunting.


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## KMdogs

In a perfect world these hounds would not be put under such extreme circumstances to find out.. Of course when people think of "game testing" they immediately go to the era of the [] for answers, which in retrospect is probably the best example of not only testing but proving as it is about as raw of combat form there is.

In order to know a dog possess game is for that said dog to be put in the mental and physical situation deemed impossible to walk away from, in essence life or death. Only then will the dog show you, either instincts will kick in and will attempt to flea, cur, quit, etc.. OR they will defeat all odds and at least attempt to win or finish the tasks regardless of what the cost is to their own well being.. It goes against what nature instilled, if you will.

No sport offers this and aside from the illegal method already mentioned i believe there are only two other avenues.. 1. Catch dog and 2. Protection.. The reason i say this is because in my opinion these two are the only working avenues that can potentially offer the extreme conditions of which game is tested and/or proven.. Though i will say, it is not typical. I would not call a superior catch dog one that possesses game if that said dog has never endured such a stressful, challenging situation.

With the APBT there really is only one method that has proved to work and that is what the breed was bred and designed to do.. While Bulldogs are all arounders and can really exceed at virtually all abilities you must remember there is only 1 of those that the breed was perfected for. There is reason the saying "Its not the size of the dog, its the fight in the dog" is based on the APBT.

As time moves on it is increasingly harder to proven game (especially in this country) legally AND responsibly, no one in their right mind is going to just throw their dog in the position of "well, either he comes back or he wasn't game". These "other venues" are far more risky than "traditional" methods of testing as you don't NEED a hound to possess game to excel in hunting or protection however it just so happens that both have the potential of proving so.


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## redog

:thumbsup:awesome km!


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## BoneMan

KMdogs said:


> I would not call a superior catch dog one that possesses game if that said dog has never endured such a stressful, challenging situation.


I guess then a catch dog who's trampled on by a 350lb hog because a junior hound backed down and left an opening -- and yet picked himself up, despite some serious scratces [no broken bones], to keep at the hunt -- would kind of fall into this group of "game"







One year later he wasn't broke either we still hunt hog and bear.


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## EL CUCO

KMdogs said:


> In a perfect world these hounds would not be put under such extreme circumstances to find out.. Of course when people think of "game testing" they immediately go to the era of the [] for answers, which in retrospect is probably the best example of not only testing but proving as it is about as raw of combat form there is.
> 
> In order to know a dog possess game is for that said dog to be put in the mental and physical situation deemed impossible to walk away from, in essence life or death. Only then will the dog show you, either instincts will kick in and will attempt to flea, cur, quit, etc.. OR they will defeat all odds and at least attempt to win or finish the tasks regardless of what the cost is to their own well being.. It goes against what nature instilled, if you will.
> 
> No sport offers this and aside from the illegal method already mentioned i believe there are only two other avenues.. 1. Catch dog and 2. Protection.. The reason i say this is because in my opinion these two are the only working avenues that can potentially offer the extreme conditions of which game is tested and/or proven.. Though i will say, it is not typical. I would not call a superior catch dog one that possesses game if that said dog has never endured such a stressful, challenging situation.
> 
> With the APBT there really is only one method that has proved to work and that is what the breed was bred and designed to do.. While Bulldogs are all arounders and can really exceed at virtually all abilities you must remember there is only 1 of those that the breed was perfected for. There is reason the saying "Its not the size of the dog, its the fight in the dog" is based on the APBT.
> 
> As time moves on it is increasingly harder to proven game (especially in this country) legally AND responsibly, no one in their right mind is going to just throw their dog in the position of "well, either he comes back or he wasn't game". These "other venues" are far more risky than "traditional" methods of testing as you don't NEED a hound to possess game to excel in hunting or protection however it just so happens that both have the potential of proving so.


Sorry KM, it says I need to spread the love before I give you some rep...not that you need it anyways lol


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## Celestial88

BoneMan said:


> I guess then a catch dog who's trampled on by a 350lb hog because a junior hound backed down and left an opening -- and yet picked himself up, despite some serious scratces [no broken bones], to keep at the hunt -- would kind of fall into this group of "game"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One year later he wasn't broke either we still hunt hog and bear.


I wouldn't consider that game. In the pit, the only time I've seen a dog labeled game is with several broken bones and inches from death and still fighting.

There's even the good ol' story of the dog that was unable to move it's front legs but still scratched and got up on two legs to go after the other dog. From what I recall the dog wasn't the best fighter, but he made up for it in tenacity and determination.


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## EL CUCO

Celestial88 said:


> I wouldn't consider that game. In the pit, the only time I've seen a dog labeled game is with several broken bones and inches from death.


If that dog you are mentioning is still moving forward or scratching...would be considered dead game.


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## BoneMan

Celestial88 said:


> I wouldn't consider that game. In the pit, the only time I've seen a dog labeled game is with several broken bones and inches from death and still fighting.
> 
> There's even the good ol' story of the dog that was unable to move it's front legs but still scratched and got up on two legs to go after the other dog. From what I recall the dog wasn't the best fighter, but he made up for it in tenacity and determination.


Yep and then as El Cuco said it's dead game [I'd rather have my dog alive than watching it's death throes for some punk's fun]... that's not game that's animal cruelty and no whimpering to defend that's why the breed was made will change my mind.

How about the only *legal* way to test game. Pits might have been bred for dog fighting but all I see in the sport is a bunch of thugs [Vick and his sort of people] who have to make themselves feel "big" by how many dogs their can defeat; reason why that sort of game testing is illgeal after all isn't it?

Take one of your dogs out and see if it'll tree a cougar / puma / mountain lion by itself - a trait not even all hog and bear dogs will willingly do - and maybe then I'll be interested in listening.

Oh and I think I should add though I love the breed I do not love the purpose behind pits. Humans make animals fight to the death - we do it with dogs, and in some countries they do it with horses - for our own sick pleasure.


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## Rudy4747

There is no true way to test game any more. End.of story. The only way to know a dog was game was to pit it into another game dog. Hog even pumas will eventually run the only thing going to keep fighting is another game dog. Gamness is simply a endless battle were the fighter does not give up no matter the damage it has encountered. So you can never truly find this with opponents that will quit long before the limits have been pushed for the bulldog. This was the only way to do so and now all that can be done is to run a dog till tired then take him for a hard hunt on a hog. BONeman This is as close to game as you can get these days a dog that has been thrashed by its prey and still fights to make the catch. But still it is prey not an equal opponent.


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## BoneMan

Rudy4747 said:


> There is no true way to test game any more. End.of story. The only way to know a dog was game was to pit it into another game dog. Hog even pumas will eventually run the only thing going to keep fighting is another game dog. Gamness is simply a endless battle were the fighter does not give up no matter the damage it has encountered. So you can never truly find this with opponents that will quit long before the limits have been pushed for the bulldog. This was the only way to do so and now all that can be done is to run a dog till tired then take him for a hard hunt on a hog. BONeman This is as close to game as you can get these days a dog that has been thrashed by its prey and still fights to make the catch. But still it is prey not an equal opponent.


I've had hounds forelegs broken by hogs, gutted by hogs, and my GingerSnaps [Snaps' adoptive mother] was blinded by a cat but that didn't stop her as she was still in the pack [didnt realize her condition till after] - so yeah hunting can get pretty damn hairy. But then most people "hunt" with big guns and think themselves men... try bow hunting big prey.

Oh I understand the concept and find it.... less then manly [and absolutely sickening in the lack of respect given to a loyal breed]. But then my mindset comes from my daughter's pit mix without a single dog aggressive bone was stolen out of the backyard where she was staying for college - was used as a "bait" or whatever you call it to encourage aggression in a pedigreed / better dog; beaten [by humans] and eventually left to starve to death because of its "uselessness".

No where in nature do you find an animal willing to fight to the death because they have brains, they want to survive another day - if it's just another day due to injuries. But you throw two dogs together in a "pit" with no means of escape except until one is down / if not dead and that is to show what? That the winning dog had better training? Was in better condition? That those involved in the event ultimately don't see their dogs as any more than a means to brag in having a better "killing machine"?

If you were to believe the origins of the Molossian type - forefather of the APBT - they had an actual *useful* purpose in assisting butchers with unruly cattle / bulls led to slaughter. This, because of human boredom and dog aggression, became bull baiting / bear /monkeys, etc. baiting as a simple mean for human entertainment [same as gladiators]. Dog fighting followed suit only because it was more easily disguised.

The APBT is a very beautiful breed, very verstile, but it could have been a lot better had we not gotten so caught up with this concept of fighting the animals.


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## Rudy4747

I see your points defenently. But dog fighting was around even when bull baiting was leagal. I hear people say oh dog fighting came along cause it could be hidden. Well it was leagal so wht was the point of it needing to be hidden. 
I also think you shoul know that the unfortunant event of the stolen dog while sad, has nothing to do with dog fighting in the essence of what the true dogger would have done in the day of the real ABPT. Beacaus they did not use bait dogs, it would be contradition to train your dog on a dog that was not game. I find it funny that people will say how great the breed is but it would be better". Well yes dog fighting did aid in the bad name o the breed, but It is gamensess and the non human agressing that was bred in by true dog men that make the breed great.


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## caninesrock

BoneMan said:


> I've had hounds forelegs broken by hogs, gutted by hogs, and my GingerSnaps [Snaps' adoptive mother] was blinded by a cat but that didn't stop her as she was still in the pack [didnt realize her condition till after] - so yeah hunting can get pretty damn hairy. But then most people "hunt" with big guns and think themselves men... try bow hunting big prey.
> 
> Oh I understand the concept and find it.... less then manly [and absolutely sickening in the lack of respect given to a loyal breed]. But then my mindset comes from my daughter's pit mix without a single dog aggressive bone was stolen out of the backyard where she was staying for college - was used as a "bait" or whatever you call it to encourage aggression in a pedigreed / better dog; beaten [by humans] and eventually left to starve to death because of its "uselessness".
> 
> No where in nature do you find an animal willing to fight to the death because they have brains, they want to survive another day - if it's just another day due to injuries. But you throw two dogs together in a "pit" with no means of escape except until one is down / if not dead and that is to show what? That the winning dog had better training? Was in better condition? That those involved in the event ultimately don't see their dogs as any more than a means to brag in having a better "killing machine"?
> 
> If you were to believe the origins of the Molossian type - forefather of the APBT - they had an actual *useful* purpose in assisting butchers with unruly cattle / bulls led to slaughter. This, because of human boredom and dog aggression, became bull baiting / bear /monkeys, etc. baiting as a simple mean for human entertainment [same as gladiators]. Dog fighting followed suit only because it was more easily disguised.
> 
> The APBT is a very beautiful breed, very verstile, but it could have been a lot better had we not gotten so caught up with this concept of fighting the animals.


:goodpost:

Also, that's awful about that poor dog that got stolen. Some people are just sick.


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## Celestial88

BoneMan said:


> Yep and then as El Cuco said it's dead game [I'd rather have my dog alive than watching it's death throes for some punk's fun]... that's not game that's animal cruelty and no whimpering to defend that's why the breed was made will change my mind.
> 
> How about the only *legal* way to test game. Pits might have been bred for dog fighting but all I see in the sport is a bunch of thugs [Vick and his sort of people] who have to make themselves feel "big" by how many dogs their can defeat; reason why that sort of game testing is illgeal after all isn't it?
> 
> Take one of your dogs out and see if it'll tree a cougar / puma / mountain lion by itself - a trait not even all hog and bear dogs will willingly do - and maybe then I'll be interested in listening.
> 
> Oh and I think I should add though I love the breed I do not love the purpose behind pits. Humans make animals fight to the death - we do it with dogs, and in some countries they do it with horses - for our own sick pleasure.


I wasn't saying that's game, I was just mentioning the story as an example. The dog died, so of course it's dead game. Also partially hoping someone would mention the name of the dog since it's long escaped my mind.


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## Rudy4747

:goodpost: It really is a sad thing to see what ingnorance has done to our great bree.


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## BoneMan

Rudy4747 said:


> :goodpost: It really is a sad thing to see what ingnorance has done to our great bree.


who yas talking to?


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## Rudy4747

I don't know which dog you are talking about Celest88 but the same type match happened with Ch jeep and ch homer wher home had injurys to both front legs and made his final scratch with out the use of them he did not he was picked up but still considered game since he still scratched.


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## caninesrock

Well, if animal cruelty is how a dog becomes game,then I want no part of it.
Just my .2 cents on the matter.


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## Rudy4747

BoneMan said:


> who yas talking to?


Sorry was talking to canines rock regarding the theft of dogs for baitint. It is horrible the lack of education has these thugs taking poeples dogs to use them.


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## caninesrock

Rudy4747 said:


> Sorry was talking to canines rock regarding the theft of dogs for baitint. It is horrible the lack of education has these thugs taking poeples dogs to use them.


You're supporting animal cruelty and am the ignorant one?

Sorry. Hate to break it to you,but regardless of whether or not animals are stolen for fighting purpose, used for bait, or fought until the death, it's still cruelty to make two dogs fight against each other just for mankind's sick amusement and to have ego boosts thinking that it makes their dog look strong and them like a badass just becuase they fought another dog. Sorry,but it doesn't make their dogs look strong to support fighting as testing strength/gameness. It just makes them look like they don't give a shit about their dogs. Dogs have feelings too. They don't want to be forced to do stuff until the point where they are severely injured, especially if it's not even for a purpose, like hunting or working them. I am sorry,but is just sick to use as a test whether or not a dog still works when it's severely injured . If that's what gameness is, then I want no part of it. A dog that's badly injured should be at the vet getting treated,not still working or fighting. To give them any less, is to show that you don't care about them because you can just replace them with "another good dog" like their some sort of furniture or something. It's just sick in my frank opinion.


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## Celestial88

caninesrock said:


> You're supporting animal cruelty and am the ignorant one?
> 
> Sorry. Hate to break it to you,but regardless of whether or not animals are stolen for fighting purpose, used for bait, or fought until the death, it's still cruelty to make two dogs fight against each other just for mankind's sick amusement and to have ego boosts thinking that it makes their dog look strong and them like a badass just becuase they fought another dog. Sorry,but it doesn't make their dogs look strong to support fighting as testing strength/gameness. It just makes them look like they don't give a shit about their dogs. Dogs have feelings too. They don't want to be forced to do stuff until the point where they are severely injured, especially if it's not even for a purpose, like hunting or working them. I am sorry,but is just sick to use as a test whether or not a dog still works when it's severely injured . If that's what gameness is, then I want no part of it. A dog that's badly injured should be at the vet getting treated,not still working or fighting. To give them any less, is to show that you don't care about them because you can just replace them with "another good dog" like their some sort of furniture or something. It's just sick in my frank opinion.


Reread before jumping the gun, pretty sure he was agreeing.


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## dixieland

Celestial88 said:


> Reread before jumping the gun, pretty sure he was agreeing.


Umm yeah he was agreeing with you.....
There is only one way to test for gameness.The next closest thing is hog hunting.
I'm not really too sure as to why you were asking the questions if you can't handle the answers.Dog fighting is a part of this breeds history and past.It's part of who they are.It's in their blood.If you can't handle it then maybe you shouldn't own them.


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## KMdogs

caninesrock said:


> You're supporting animal cruelty and am the ignorant one?
> 
> Sorry. Hate to break it to you,but regardless of whether or not animals are stolen for fighting purpose, used for bait, or fought until the death, it's still cruelty to make two dogs fight against each other just for mankind's sick amusement and to have ego boosts thinking that it makes their dog look strong and them like a badass just becuase they fought another dog. Sorry,but it doesn't make their dogs look strong to support fighting as testing strength/gameness. It just makes them look like they don't give a shit about their dogs. Dogs have feelings too. They don't want to be forced to do stuff until the point where they are severely injured, especially if it's not even for a purpose, like hunting or working them. I am sorry,but is just sick to use as a test whether or not a dog still works when it's severely injured . If that's what gameness is, then I want no part of it. A dog that's badly injured should be at the vet getting treated,not still working or fighting. To give them any less, is to show that you don't care about them because you can just replace them with "another good dog" like their some sort of furniture or something. It's just sick in my frank opinion.


No one pre 76' (and even those few that still do) matched a hound that would not want to be there, what would be the point? The entire process prior to actual matches was to see if the said hound (or dog, same meaning) had the ability, if not that was that. Sometimes these curs (non game dogs) were excellent producers, others went on to be hog dogs, pets, etc.. And yes, some also culled.. However any "legit" matching that took place between two gentlemen wasn't to feel like a "badass" or any of what you have in your mind, it was done FOR the dogs, preserving the breed and keeping instilled what the breed was formed upon.. Yes, there were bets placed, drugs as well as alcohol however not ALL were involved with these side "events"..

What you hear on tv about things like people starving their dogs, neglect, beating them to be "mean", training them to "fight", etc is NOT how any respectable man or women did it at its peak in this country.. And of course, in other countries even today.. What the media portrays it as is nothing more than thugs thinking they know what they are doing.. In reality, no one thinks highly of these morons..

I am not glorifying anything, its fact and its simple.. Without the dedication and without the events that occur you wouldn't be able to own these mixes, pets, etc that you do today.. No one would because the APBT in all sense of the word, would cease to exist.. Sure, we would still have the Bulldog but who knows how that would have ended up. (Bulldog meaning APBT that is not proven)

Rudy.. Matching isn't illegal every where in the world and even in the states its a bit naive to believe there aren't game dogs out there.. Whether tested here or else where they still exist. I also tend to agree with you in that the only way to truly test a Bulldog is by the means of (at least in this country) illegal matching.. HOWEVER, the APBT and other pit dogs are not the only breed(s) out there that can possess game so i will say i disagree that theres no legal way of knowing.. Technically.

This is a VERY extreme scenario however lets say you have two people that break in a home with a trained Bandog.. Lets say a Presa, lets say in the mists of things the hound goes after these two people and one of the guys shoots the hound but still gets took down, the other starts beating the dog while the dog turns around and brings down the other.. Lets also say, in the mists of things the dog ends up getting stabbed a few times as well as a fractured leg and broken rib.. However even after all the injury and the dog was able to successfully stop the threat(s) so on so forth.

Now for all intensive purpose lets just theoretically say the hound is lucky and survives, requires surgery (of course) however no vital organs injured though near death when entering the emergency vet.. Would you consider this Presa possessing game? I, personally would say yes OR "game - like" genes that produce very similar results in terms of heart and mentality.

I can throw examples all day but bottom line is PP and catch dogs can offer circumstances of which game is tested.. Common? No.. Should one bank on this as a means to find out? Absolutely not.

Theres only one safe method of testing and that is illegal, again not to glorify anything.. Its just fact. People are drilled so much in what to believe when it comes to this sensitive subject and want to believe anyone ever involved in "dog fighting" are scumbags.. The truth is, not all were. Bad seeds? Absolutely and today is a far cry from yesteryear.

If you can't handle what the breed is than why even own these dogs? Because you want to prove well over 100 years worth of knowledge wrong? Because you don't believe in genetics and its "all in how you raise them?" No one NEEDS a pit dog and thats something to take in strong consideration. I'm not saying go out and buy a Bulldog you have to match them HOWEVER they do need to be worked and they do need to be heavily exercised to remain healthy and happy.. A tired Bulldog is a happy Bulldog. If you want "just a pet" find a shelter or find yourself a breed that has remained consistently as a status symbol or pet status.. Leaving the working breeds where they should be.. With owners and handlers with use for them.


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## Jared

these threads get old on EVERY forum. give it a rest, if you do not enjoy pitting dogs, that is fine, but that is the true testament. Nowadays people look for ways to claim it...if you hate dog fighting, take the word game out of your vocabulary and use another term...the "n" word will always be a derogatory term used by many to label a certain race, never going to change, catch my drift?


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## BoneMan

Jared said:


> these threads get old on EVERY forum. give it a rest, if you do not enjoy pitting dogs, that is fine, but that is the true testament. Nowadays people look for ways to claim it...if you hate dog fighting, take the word game out of your vocabulary and use another term...the "n" word will always be a derogatory term used by many to label a certain race, never going to change, catch my drift?


The "n" word's original meaning was for lazy shiftless people not in the way it became used.

Just as how had people not said "oh dog fighting - fun [for who only god knows]" APBTs and other similar breeds would have been fashioned for another purpose.

And let's put it this way what is the purpose to pitting dogs? Who benefits? The dog so ruined it's got to be put down [and not always humanely]? The man who gets 15 seconds of fame until another dog bests what his dog just achieved? The couple of thousand you earn in victory [get a job]?

Dog pitting is a *pathetic* way for people to make themselves seem tough [same as a want-to-be gangster going down the street with an oversized brain dead mongrel wearing a spike collar]. You want to be tough hunt a 175 lb puma that has killed some of your dogs with no tent for three days straight in snowing conditions and tell me how you feel afterwards. To anyone whom sees behind the appeal dog pitting is just for people to compensate for their own lack of worth... nothing more, nothing less.


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## BoneMan

BoneMan said:


> The "n" word's original meaning was for lazy shiftless people not in the way it became used.
> 
> Just as how had people not said "oh dog fighting - fun [for who only god knows]" APBTs and other similar breeds would have been fashioned for another purpose.
> 
> And let's put it this way what is the purpose to pitting dogs? Who benefits? The dog so ruined it's got to be put down [and not always humanely]? The man who gets 15 seconds of fame until another dog bests what his dog just achieved? The couple of thousand you earn in victory [get a job]?
> 
> Dog pitting is a *pathetic* way for people to make themselves seem tough [same as a want-to-be gangster going down the street with an oversized brain dead mongrel wearing a spike collar]. You want to be tough hunt a 175 lb puma that has killed some of your dogs with no tent for three days straight in snowing conditions and tell me how you feel afterwards. To anyone whom sees behind the appeal dog pitting is just for people to compensate for their own lack of worth... nothing more, nothing less.


And I'm aware my mindset might be a bit harsh but I look at my neighbours pits and pit types used for hog hunting where any dog aggressive animal is immediately put to sleep [because hog hunting isn't dangerous enough without having your pack mate ripping into you] and I see wonderful dogs that are more than willing to go the extra mile in a hunt even if injuried or exhausted.

But occasionally those neighbours will get bored and use a dog aggressive dog in pitting and most have admitted they are thankful Snaps isn't DA because at his size, he'd rip even a pedigreed APBT from those "hard mouth" lines apart.


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## Rudy4747

caninesrock said:


> You're supporting animal cruelty and am the ignorant one?
> 
> Sorry. Hate to break it to you,but regardless of whether or not animals are stolen for fighting purpose, used for bait, or fought until the death, it's still cruelty to make two dogs fight against each other just for mankind's sick amusement and to have ego boosts thinking that it makes their dog look strong and them like a badass just becuase they fought another dog. Sorry,but it doesn't make their dogs look strong to support fighting as testing strength/gameness. It just makes them look like they don't give a shit about their dogs. Dogs have feelings too. They don't want to be forced to do stuff until the point where they are severely injured, especially if it's not even for a purpose, like hunting or working them. I am sorry,but is just sick to use as a test whether or not a dog still works when it's severely injured . If that's what gameness is, then I want no part of it. A dog that's badly injured should be at the vet getting treated,not still working or fighting. To give them any less, is to show that you don't care about them because you can just replace them with "another good dog" like their some sort of furniture or something. It's just sick in my frank opinion.


Yep I was agreeing with you. The theft of a dog for baiting is a horrible act. And no real dogman would have done such a thing.
Boneman I am not going to go in to what may oray not happen had you dog been pitted anginst a real APBT. I would hate to upset you more. But I will say culling a bulldog for being DA is a very cruel act. In a since they are killing the dog for being what it was all ways ment to be. If you don't want a Da APBT then they should go get a hunting man dog.


----------



## BoneMan

Rudy4747 said:


> Yep I was agreeing with you. The theft of a dog for baiting is a horrible act. And no real dogman would have done such a thing.
> Boneman I am not going to go in to what may oray not happen had you dog been pitted anginst a real APBT. I would hate to upset you more. But I will say culling a bulldog for being DA is a very cruel act. In a since they are killing the dog for being what it was all ways ment to be. If you don't want a Da APBT then they should go get a hunting man dog.


Oh you don't have to tell me what may or may not have happened. I was there not long after they caught the guy; without the chip in his flesh there'd have been no way to identifying Mojo as the bloodied crumpled corpse - broken hip, broken shoulder, shredded ear [not cropped], amongst other things.

I should have been clearier. The APBTs and pit mixes are generally non dog aggressive every so often you'll get a dog [due to genetics] that is dog aggressive [it's about 1 in every 20 or 30 animals, so its low - low for the breed].

And as for saying dog aggression is what made the APBT that's as *ignorant* as saying a pug [and any similar breeds] which can't breathe properly was meant to have a squished in face.

The dogs that APBTs and other pit types descended from were used for butchers. So they weren't "dog fighting" animals right off the bat - any twit that says they were, do you're research. We [humans] selectively chose the dog aggressive trait because we wanted dog aggressive dogs... period. No other reason.

If you say that the dog aggression is what makes an APBT then I feel sorry for you. A dog breed should never have been bred because it can tear it's opponent apart better than the last animal all for our [human] sick sense of entertainment. There are much better traits in an APBT dog that could have been enhanced if people had put some thought into it.... but as it is you get BYBs with no thought to temperament, breeding dogs hand over preverbal fist, and as such you've got APBTs with the horrid rep they've got.

As for my collegues putting down a dog aggressive dog, well it's the dog aggressive and human aggressive APBTs and pit types as to why in some towns / cities I've heard if you have a dog that even *LOOKs* like a pit (doesn't have to be even a single drop of pit blood in there) it's got to be put down the breed bans are that strict.

I can understand in the older days the concept of dog men and pitting [grandfather was one] however in this day and age, it's disgusting and has been corrupted as I said with a bunch of want-to-be punks without the balls pitting their dogs against one another to make up for their own lack of worth.

You want to pit something together? Go to some of the towns in Africa, they have hyenas and baboons on leash for their "pit bulls". Now that takes a lot of balls.


----------



## EckoMac

American *PIT* Bull Terrier
I'm pretty sure *PIT* makes the breed. js


----------



## BoneMan

EckoMac said:


> American *PIT* Bull Terrier
> I'm pretty sure *PIT* makes the breed. js


And that's like saying - as I've had some real winners tell me - **** sapien means we are all _homos_.


----------



## caninesrock

dixieland said:


> Umm yeah he was agreeing with you.....
> There is only one way to test for gameness.The next closest thing is hog hunting.
> I'm not really too sure as to why you were asking the questions if you can't handle the answers.Dog fighting is a part of this breeds history and past.It's part of who they are.It's in their blood.If you can't handle it then maybe you shouldn't own them.


Exactly. It's part of history and the past. No one should have to "handle" it in the present time though. It's illegal for a reason. Supporting it is almost as bad as actually doing it. It's like if someone kills someone and then I say, "Thank God. I hated that person.", then I'm supporting murder and that's not ok. I'm just giving that as an example,not saying dogfighting is like murder.


----------



## caninesrock

Rudy4747 said:


> Yep I was agreeing with you. The theft of a dog for baiting is a horrible act. And no real dogman would have done such a thing.
> Boneman I am not going to go in to what may oray not happen had you dog been pitted anginst a real APBT. I would hate to upset you more. But I will say culling a bulldog for being DA is a very cruel act. In a since they are killing the dog for being what it was all ways ment to be. If you don't want a Da APBT then they should go get a hunting man dog.


Oh. Sorry. My bad. I misread. :blushes:


----------



## caninesrock

BoneMan said:


> Oh you don't have to tell me what may or may not have happened. I was there not long after they caught the guy; without the chip in his flesh there'd have been no way to identifying Mojo as the bloodied crumpled corpse - broken hip, broken shoulder, shredded ear [not cropped], amongst other things.
> 
> I should have been clearier. The APBTs and pit mixes are generally non dog aggressive every so often you'll get a dog [due to genetics] that is dog aggressive [it's about 1 in every 20 or 30 animals, so its low - low for the breed].
> 
> And as for saying dog aggression is what made the APBT that's as *ignorant* as saying a pug [and any similar breeds] which can't breathe properly was meant to have a squished in face.
> 
> The dogs that APBTs and other pit types descended from were used for butchers. So they weren't "dog fighting" animals right off the bat - any twit that says they were, do you're research. We [humans] selectively chose the dog aggressive trait because we wanted dog aggressive dogs... period. No other reason.
> 
> If you say that the dog aggression is what makes an APBT then I feel sorry for you. A dog breed should never have been bred because it can tear it's opponent apart better than the last animal all for our [human] sick sense of entertainment. There are much better traits in an APBT dog that could have been enhanced if people had put some thought into it.... but as it is you get BYBs with no thought to temperament, breeding dogs hand over preverbal fist, and as such you've got APBTs with the horrid rep they've got.
> 
> As for my collegues putting down a dog aggressive dog, well it's the dog aggressive and human aggressive APBTs and pit types as to why in some towns / cities I've heard if you have a dog that even *LOOKs* like a pit (doesn't have to be even a single drop of pit blood in there) it's got to be put down the breed bans are that strict.
> 
> I can understand in the older days the concept of dog men and pitting [grandfather was one] however in this day and age, it's disgusting and has been corrupted as I said with a bunch of want-to-be punks without the balls pitting their dogs against one another to make up for their own lack of worth.
> 
> You want to pit something together? Go to some of the towns in Africa, they have hyenas and baboons on leash for their "pit bulls". Now that takes a lot of balls.


Oh. That's awful.  I'm sorry about your dog. And I agree with everything you said in your post except for the baboon and hyena part. That's just scary,but I think you just meant that as sarcasm so....


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## BoneMan

Okay, taken a breather. Yes, the ORIGINAL concept of "pit" is what made the breed unfortunately that's not the case anymore [traditional dogmen I mean]. Sorry but when I think of Mojo [and yes I know no real dogman would have stolen a family pet for that purpose] it gets me mad.

This is an old argument. It'll never change. All I have to say is that the "honour" if some want to go that far of been a traditional / original dogman has flown out the preverbal window.

Look at what Vick and his losers did; I'm using that as everyone should know that tale with respect to their concept of "pitting". They abused, beat, terrorized, and in all essences sent their dogs off to slaughter all for a couple of bucks. I don't believe any of those animals were treated in a fashion a traditional dog man would have... they were the latest thing {a fad} as it was for a bunch of bored losers. And unfortunately it is becoming more and more like Vick's idea of "pitting" - what better way to impress your "friends" [fellow thugs] than having a pit bull that just chomped apart its opponent in a "pit".

But I look at it, and follow one of my favorite quotes with this idea [one of the reasons why, despite grandfather's desire I never took up the dogman habit], to "pitting":
_A dog is the only thing on earth that loves you more than he loves himself _
by Josh Billings [1818-1885]


----------



## EckoMac

I am a "****", so tread softly friend.

Fact of the matter is, the APBT was bred for the pit. Hence the name. They are named for their purpose, not given a purpose to match their name. We can not damn the dogs for what they were bred for. And HA is way different then DA. DA is in the gentics and HA should be culled.


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## BoneMan

EckoMac said:


> Fact of the matter is, the APBT was bred for the pit. Hence the name. They are named for their purpose, not given a purpose to match their name. We can not damn the dogs for what they were bred for. And HA is way different then DA. DA is in the gentics and HA should be culled.


I meant no insult and read my previous post.

Yes I agree the APBT shouldn't be condemned for what it was meant to do - but how many stories have you heard of "pit" dogs and you look into it... it's not a dogman setup. It's not how its supposed to be.

It's people with drugs, or guns, or whatever just looking to make an impression on their neighbours, their rivals, whomever. A sort of "look at me" not only do I have this bloody big gun but I've got this dog that just "ate" its last five opponents.... icing on the cake sort of deal.

How many of those "pit" dogs are used, abused, and then left to die because they didn't make it. *Too many to count. *Trust me buddy I used to work AC for a while when I was younger and some of the preverbal shit you see out of so called 'dogmen' yards would make you wonder at humanity.

And yes HA should be culled - but when you have BYBs [which far outnumber a morally driven individual] breeding for the next $500 paycheque (a pup) they don't care if the breeding male just ripped apart the mailman or not as long as no one else knows of it.


----------



## EckoMac

When most of us refer to "dogmen" we refer to the true dogmen of the past. What we have now are thugs and criminals. Throwing 2 dogs in a box does not make a dogman. 
If you take generation upon generation of true APBTs and cull out the DA dogs, well the outcome is no longer an APBT. Then you simply have an Am Staff.

The OP was not questioning the morality of dog fighting, he or she simply wanted to know what game is. And game can only be defined as the need to continue the fight even when the odds are stacked against surviving it.


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## Rudy4747

Your confused about a lot but what well I guess Google education will have to do for some. I never said DA makes the breed. I said gameness and lack of HA is what makes this breed. 
So your dog killed a dog? Is that what you were saying at the start of the post. Cause I was sure you said he was not DA. A none da dog would be done with just getting a dog off him and would not proceed to mail him. Like I said we need not talk about what would happen of he were to run into a REAL APBT. Much less one similar I'm size. Any how I don't need to argue with you obviously you have far more knowldge than I. , when it come to the breed.......


----------



## caninesrock

Rudy4747 said:


> Your confused about a lot but what well I guess Google education will have to do for some. I never said SQ makes the breed. I said gameness and lack of HA is what makes this breed.
> So your dog killed a dog? Is that what you were saying at the start of the post. Cause I was sure you said he was not DA. A none da dog would be done with just getting a dog off him and would not proceed to mail him. Like I said we need not talk about what would happen of he were to run into a REAL APBT. Much less one similar I'm size. Any how I don't need to argue with you obviously you have far more knowldge than I. , when it come to the breed.......


I'm not sure who you're talking to,but if you were referring to Boneman, he never said his dog killed another dog. He said his dog was killed by another dog after someone stole him.


----------



## caninesrock

EckoMac said:


> If you take generation upon generation of true APBTs and cull out the DA dogs, well the outcome is no longer an APBT. Then you simply have an Am Staff.


I'm going to have to disagree here. They're two different breeds. It would still be a pitbull just without aggression issues.

Oh and pitbulls weren't originally bred to be dog aggressive. They were bred to go after bulls just like other molosser types. Their original purpose had nothing to do with fighting other dogs. They were "pitted" against bulls,not each other, hence the name Pit BULL. Dog fighting only came later because people couldn't find a better way to entertain themselves than watching two innocent animals kill each other.


----------



## EckoMac

caninesrock said:


> I'm going to have to disagree here. They're two different breeds. It would still be a pitbull just without aggression issues.
> 
> Oh and pitbulls weren't originally bred to be dog aggressive. They were bred to go after bulls just like other molosser types. Their original purpose had nothing to do with fighting other dogs. They were "pitted" against bulls,not each other, hence the name Pit BULL. Dog fighting only came later because people couldn't find a better way to entertain themselves than watching two innocent animals kill each other.


They are NOW two different breeds.

As the Am Staff is to show the APBT is to DA. It's fact and genetics and we can argue until we are blue in the face, but gentics can not be denied.


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## Rudy4747

caninesrock said:


> I'm not sure who you're talking to,but if you were referring to Boneman, he never said his dog killed another dog. He said his dog was killed by another dog after someone stole him.


Sorry I just read over that Mojo was the dog stolen. Sorry my phone is slow right now I am out of town. It makes me sick what happened to the dog. I spent a lot of time rescuing and training bulldogs for rehomimg. But all to often the people that would adopt them did not understand DA. And that it was part of owning a bulldog. There are far to many people out there owning and breeding these dog that should not have them, plain and simple.


----------



## caninesrock

EckoMac said:


> They are NOW two different breeds.
> 
> As the Am Staff is to show the APBT is to DA. It's fact and genetics and we can argue until we are blue in the face, but gentics can not be denied.


I never said they should be culled for dog aggression, just that if they were, the resulting offspring would still be pitbulls. They would still have the same look, same build, same strength,same temperment as a pitbull except for the DA part.

Am staff don't look the same as pitbulls. They have a heavy looking build and a different kind of face.


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## BoneMan

Rudy4747 said:


> Sorry I just read over that Mojo was the dog stolen. Sorry my phone is slow right now I am out of town. It makes me sick what happened to the dog. .


And I kind of apologize for biting... but when I think of what happened to Mojo [whom was really an oversized lap dog, this guy couldn't fight to save his life though he certainly looked the part (as a pit)] I kind of see red. :curse:

But I know true dogmen - as I said, my grandfather was one [and he wanted me to become one myself] - and I know what goes with it. However, general public [uneducated to this concept] only see "pitting" as nothing short of animal abuse [I examplified Vick, and will again] as held between a bunch of thugs. And I kind of tromped all over that without thinking of what I was saying and the sort of men I was probably talking to.

Though my attitude probably wasn't helped when the guy who stole Mojo [one of the AC staff was an old friend so they called me ASAP] had the nerve of trying to explain his antics as been a "dogman". Obviously he had seen / read / heard [there's enough depending on where you go to get a concept of what a dogman is] of the term and thought that by using it he could explain why 5 of his 7 dogs were maimed. He's so he's lucky the cops were around, I probably would have put him in a shallow grave first for what he did to my daughter's dog and then using that term [dogmen] for nothing short of animal abuse.

So again I do apologize to the true dogmen whom have read what I said, blame my bull head.

Also to whomever it was that said don't put down the dog aggressive dog because it's a pit. Pits are extremely good hog dogs with the right training because of their bite, their determination, and their strength, agility, etc. ... only a fool would say otherwise. But a dog aggressive pit bull in a hunt against a 350lb [and that is medium size, they can get much BIGGER] hog is only looking for chaos to happen.... the dogs should be focused on the pig not their pack mates.

Would you rather my neighbours' dumped off a dog aggressive pit bull / pit type from hard working lines into the local shelter? If that isn't looking for trouble [the unsuspecting family's pets killed because of high prey drive in the lines, even a dog to human attack] then I guess my friends are the stupid ones and letting such an animal go to shelter / pound is the smart thing to do.


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## Rudy4747

I completely understand I could not trust a couple of my dogs in a hog hunt with other dogs. The chances of them taking a hold of a dog instead if the hog are to great. But in a since you can see maybe why hogging takes a different type of drive then that of the old game dog.?.? This .is were this conversation took a turn.


----------



## ames

BoneMan said:


> And that's like saying - as I've had some real winners tell me - **** sapien means we are all _homos_.


Homos means man or mankind. Yeah, you are a homos, nothing wrong with that in whatever definition your trying to use it as...



BoneMan said:


> I should have been clearier. The APBTs and pit mixes are generally non dog aggressive *every so often you'll get a dog [due to genetics] that is dog aggressive [it's about 1 in every 20 or 30 animals, so its low - low for the breed]. *
> 
> And as for saying dog aggression is what made the APBT that's as *ignorant* as saying a pug [and any similar breeds] which can't breathe properly was meant to have a squished in face.
> 
> As for my collegues putting down a dog aggressive dog, well it's the dog aggressive and human aggressive APBTs and pit types as to why in some towns / cities I've heard if you have a dog that even *LOOKs* like a pit (doesn't have to be even a single drop of pit blood in there) it's got to be put down the breed bans are that strict.


that is so not true, I would reverse the numbers. Almost every true APBT will be dog aggressive at some point in their life or another. It IS a part of who they are and their history and you need to accept it in order to be responsible with the breed.

A true APBT is basically the same type of dog when you look to when it originated. Not like a pug or German shepherd have changed so drastically (non working shepherd's I mean), even the AmStaff has not changed from its beginning in the 60's as much as other breeds have. And there are plenty of AmStaff's who have DA as well. The problem was when BYB got a hold and would try to create something into what it isn't, allowed HA to pop and typically bred before that trait could be on display so it was too late. The problem wasn't the dog men of old, it's people who don't respect the history and started labeling any square head, blocky body mutt as a pit bull. Its when people accepted the term pit bull and now we can't do anything about it but educate to what they MIGHT have in what they are feeding which is Dog Aggression.



caninesrock said:


> I'm going to have to disagree here. They're two different breeds. It would still be a pitbull just without aggression issues.
> 
> Oh and pitbulls weren't originally bred to be dog aggressive. They were bred to go after bulls just like other molosser types. Their original purpose had nothing to do with fighting other dogs. They were "pitted" against bulls,not each other, hence the name Pit BULL. Dog fighting only came later because people couldn't find a better way to entertain themselves than watching two innocent animals kill each other.


We agree on the 2 different breeds, but pit bulls might not have been bred originally, but as soon as they realized they had DA genes, they were selectively bred to be DA and NOT HA for pit fighting, Hence their name. This breed thrived and survived only because of the care and concern old dog men made in creating the breed. there were plenty of ways to entertain themselves with lots of different kinds of animals killing each other, Sadly. For me people say the dogs loved [], someone had said kids love ice cream but you would not give it to them to eat every day just because they love its not good for them. But you can't deny how the breed was created for DA and must find other outlets for your dog to love life and thrive with this skill set his genetics gave him. Love and determination to please the owner in whatever is asked: in a walk, run, hike, weight pull, hog hunting, or sit on the couch and cuddle, help my 93 year old grandmother up and down my front steps when she would visit when she was still alive. My boy will do anything for me, 90% of the time with the best grin on his face and that came from his genetics.



BoneMan said:


> Would you rather my neighbours' dumped off a dog aggressive pit bull / pit type from hard working lines into the local shelter? If that isn't looking for trouble [the unsuspecting family's pets killed because of high prey drive in the lines, even a dog to human attack] then I guess my friends are the stupid ones and letting such an animal go to shelter / pound is the smart thing to do.


no one is saying that. you can contain and be responsible with a DA dog. having one isn't surprising based on their history. its manageable. You can crate and rotate with multiple dogs. Some people can not choose this lifestyle, (myself included, I only want my 1 in case I would have to C&R) most true DA dogs do not last at shelters. So if people are not willing to deal with a DA potential dog, a bull dog isn't really the breed's I would favor due to their genetics and over the last 30 years BYB's changing what true dog men had created.


----------



## KMdogs

BoneMan said:


> And that's like saying - as I've had some real winners tell me - **** sapien means we are all _homos_.


**** Sapien in latin roughly translates to "wise man", **** refers to man which is also in hu*man* beings. So theoretically...

Dog breeds are generally named after the country or place of creation, name of founder/creator, purpose or some mixture of the three.. In this case..

American - Place of which the APBT was perfected as a [] hound..
Pit - Purpose of which the function has been instilled.
Bull - Bulldog decent.
Terrier - Terrier decent.

Of course on the latter two, Bull Terrier can also mean Bull Terrier as in the original Bulldog of which was selectively bred to create the APBT.. OR a "tribute" to the Bulldog x Terrier cross to create the bred.. This will be argued as to what you believe so i will leave it at that.

The American Staffordshire Terrier and American Pit Bull Terrier are in essence the same dog to a different purpose. In the golden days the AST was far more performance bred vs. show bred as you see today, the APBT bred for gameness, function and ability. The ONLY real separation between the two is purpose, therefore a show bred "APBT" is just another AST to a different standard.

So yes, you take the game out of the APBT you are either left with a functional Bulldog or a non functional (in terms of ability) AST.. There is no in between as its all one of the same umbrella to a different tune.

When you start changing purpose you better be prepared for the  storm if you aren't careful.. As function instilled genetically and genetics are all tied into one "neat package".. You start changing the mentality and ability of a hound you can also create something FAR worse than original intent.. Look at the English Bulldog for a example of what can happen, 1800s EB and registry EB is no where NEAR the same spectrum.. VERY few performance EBs out there and its a far, far cry from what the breed was designed to perform.. Health problems? Through the roof.. Stability? Eh depends on how they are bred, of course but a much larger % than the good ole days..

Its impossible to argue this because its all right there in front of you if you take the time to learn the history and a little know how in tracing back..


----------



## BoneMan

ames said:


> no one is saying that. you can contain and be responsible with a DA dog. having one isn't surprising based on their history. its manageable. You can crate and rotate with multiple dogs. Some people can not choose this lifestyle, (myself included, I only want my 1 in case I would have to C&R) most true DA dogs do not last at shelters. So if people are not willing to deal with a DA potential dog, a bull dog isn't really the breed's I would favor due to their genetics and over the last 30 years BYB's changing what true dog men had created.


Oh yes I know you can contain and manage a DA dog [my first dog was an old style Colby game bred - ugliest (for reasons) dog you ever saw but he could pull his "weight" as it were] but let me ask you this for people who use their dogs for hunting what purpose does a DA dog serve? Very little. Where a DA dog can damage a good hunting hound in just one accidentual slip of the rotations to whom has the run of the yard... it's not a chance anyone who uses their hounds for hunting readily takes.

And I never said they are all APBTs, I said they are pit and pit type. Bullies serve just as readily as hog dogs as APBTs [if anything some prefer those as they are bigger].

And, yes I am supposing I got the numbers mixed [it's more 1 to 5 (10 at the most) dogs] but as said and said again they all aren't APBTs. There's some who keep pits strictly for that purpose [pitting] and they keep them with hounds [penned, rotation in the yard, etc], but it's a few.... the reason why the other pit types are put down is because they are usually mixed.


----------



## Sucker For A Rednose

IF you were to take 20 WELL bred APBT's over the age of 2 years I can guarentee you that atleast 50-75% would be dog aggressive. Genetics is not something you can fight and if bred tight and properly this is part of the breed. Other breeds have branched off (as spoke of above) that do not have DA. If you can't handle the truth of the breed please save us all who love the breed and just get another breed of dog. The reason why we have so many media issues is a tag teamed effort between thugs and people who don't know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to the breed. Point blank.


----------



## BoneMan

Sucker For A Rednose said:


> IF you were to take 20 WELL bred APBT's over the age of 2 years I can guarentee you that atleast 50-75% would be dog aggressive. Genetics is not something you can fight and if bred tight and properly this is part of the breed. Other breeds have branched off (as spoke of above) that do not have DA. If you can't handle the truth of the breed please save us all who love the breed and just get another breed of dog. The reason why we have so many media issues is a tag teamed effort between thugs and people who don't know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to the breed. Point blank.


And maybe if you read a bit you'd see what these dogs are used for. They aren't for pitting by majority so my neighbours don't want the dog aggressive trait in their mixes. It's really a no brainer.

They are using the APBT's strength, aggression, intelligence, agility, etc. to better their working dogs. Hunting dogs. Hog dogs.

The APBTs that my best friend uses for his pitting comes from Colby [Pete's dogs], Eli, Spike, Chinaman, etc. He breeds them tough and nasty. The best pup male he has now he jokingly calls BoneCracker for a reason.

You really can't judge, darling, unless you see what I mean [that goes for all] so as it is this is my last bit on this topic. It's a dead end road as it were.


----------



## Rudy4747

caninesrock said:


> I'm not sure who you're talking to,but if you were referring to Boneman, he never said his dog killed another dog. He said his dog was killed by another dog after someone stole him.





BoneMan said:


> Oh yes I know you can contain and manage a DA dog [my first dog was an old style Colby game bred - ugliest (for reasons) dog you ever saw but he could pull his "weight" as it were] but let me ask you this for people who use their dogs for hunting what purpose does a DA dog serve? Very little. Where a DA dog can damage a good hunting hound in just one accidentual slip of the rotations to whom has the run of the yard... it's not a chance anyone who uses their hounds for hunting readily takes.
> 
> And I never said they are all APBTs, I said they are pit and pit type. Bullies serve just as readily as hog dogs as APBTs [if anything some prefer those as they are bigger].
> 
> And, yes I am supposing I got the numbers mixed [it's more 1 to 5 (10 at the most) dogs] but as said and said again they all aren't APBTs. There's some who keep pits strictly for that purpose [pitting] and they keep them with hounds [penned, rotation in the yard, etc], but it's a few.... the reason why the other pit types are put down is because they are usually mixed.


I see were a game.dog would not be ideal for hunting. It.can be done. But as this was a thread on game and what it is. Then maybe you can look past and see we were only trying to show why a hog dog is not a game dog!


----------



## ames

Rudy4747 said:


> I see were a game.dog would not be ideal for hunting. It.can be done. But as this was a thread on game and what it is. Then maybe you can look past and see we were only trying to show why a hog dog is not a game dog!


exactly!!!!


----------



## BoneMan

Rudy4747 said:


> I see were a game.dog would not be ideal for hunting. It.can be done. But as this was a thread on game and what it is. Then maybe you can look past and see we were only trying to show why a hog dog is not a game dog!


So you're telling me only pits have "game"? Then what do I call my hog dog bitch whom still finished the hunt blinded, with ripped muscles to her right hip [cracked femur], two broken ribs, and probable internal injuries.... lucky?

You all seemed to miss the point to my posts earlier but I guess the saying "dogs look like their owners" can be applied here in that bully owners are bull headed. And yes, I've seen APBT "game" dogs [as I said my friend breed them], and his old male kept going though with a broken right foreleg


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## Rudy4747

I would call her a catch dog. And a great one. I mean that is what I would expect from a catch dog to do. But yeah that would be a site of.present dat game. Still not quit the same. How would that dog have fairest had it been a 2 and a half hour ordeal where the opponent had not ran off to be dragged down from behind? It is whole different game that is all I am saying. Not trying.to take anything from your dogs, them seem to survey their purpose greatly.


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## KMdogs

APBTs are NOT the only hounds that can possess game. HOWEVER in terms of testing the [] has always been proven to be not only the safest but the most reliable means.. I won't repeat the rest of my other posts however game is not only possessed by the APBT or other pit dogs.


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## 904bullys

What a beatin to death thread. Just as this question my answer will just as well sound like a broken record. "Game" in reference to the apbt can be tested in one place and one place only... In the scratching box. Any other reference to the word "game" is obsolete. I do not care if your animal defeated satan himself, blind, castrated, deaf, or legless. . You have a good dog doing what good dogs do. Pleasing there master at all cost. Game belongs in one place. A history book


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## Rudy4747

^^ good post.


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## circlemkennels

904bullys said:


> What a beatin to death thread. Just as this question my answer will just as well sound like a broken record. "Game" in reference to the apbt can be tested in one place and one place only... In the scratching box. Any other reference to the word "game" is obsolete. I do not care if your animal defeated satan himself, blind, castrated, deaf, or legless. . You have a good dog doing what good dogs do. Pleasing there master at all cost. Game belongs in one place. A history book


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## Jared

904bullys said:


> What a beatin to death thread. Just as this question my answer will just as well sound like a broken record. "Game" in reference to the apbt can be tested in one place and one place only... In the scratching box. Any other reference to the word "game" is obsolete. I do not care if your animal defeated satan himself, blind, castrated, deaf, or legless. . You have a good dog doing what good dogs do. Pleasing there master at all cost. Game belongs in one place. A history book


which is what I was getting at in my statement, but that bone man couldn't comprehend that:curse:


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## Shark

All that being said....

Does anyone actually care whether their dog is ''game'' or not? Most of us have them as pets and don't use them to fight... so why does it matter?

Personally I got my pit because of it's Intelligence, sweet temperament and loyalty towards humans. If I could get rid of the DA, I would.


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## zohawn

Shark said:


> All that being said....
> 
> Does anyone actually care whether their dog is ''game'' or not? Most of us have them as pets and don't use them to fight... so why does it matter?
> 
> Personally I got my pit because of it's Intelligence, sweet temperament and loyalty towards humans. If I could get rid of the DA, I would.


because those things you listed are the after effects of gameness.

look, nothing on this planet is chance or happens just because. "Intelligence, sweet temperament and loyalty towards humans" is instilled in your dog out of necessity. in order for your dog to survive it was required or your dogs parents wouldnt even been born.

thats why american kids are worthless and lazy. they arent tried or tested in any capacity, dogs are the same way, everything on this planet is the same way


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## Firehazard

Game comes in variety of degrees.. this is simply DRIVE and PREY DRIVE at that. GAME itself is a concept that derived from putting the bull and terrier dogs in working situations against wild game and unruly stock the dogs proved themselves and eventually the [] was the only way to really test game stock and prove stock regardless of what politics says about bull baiting and bear baiting becoming illegal .. only in ENGLAND.. AS FAR AS game testing TODAY.. ITS NOT ILLEGAL EVERYWHERE only in the HUMANIAC countries that think ANIMALS have the right to be HUMANS and NOT ANIMALS. Animals have the humane right to be animals.. A sparrow will freeze to death in a frozen bog without ever feeling sorry for itself... SELF PITY IS A HUMAN DEFECT. IT IS WRONG to PLANT THOSE FEELINGS ON ANIMALS AND PLAY ON THE EMOTIONS OF PEOPLE.
Game testing is perfectly legal in all countries that are not WESTERNIZED.

You want to game test here you can do it against wild hogs and you can figure the percentages so that the dog is ran or worked or dried up and the pig is equivalently 75% bigger than the dog and is a wild dog killing hog.. HOGS like to KILL DOGS, despite what you think you might know.

You want to HONOR the heritage of your dog as a pit dog; ... MOVE .. or by proven stock and use your dog to hunt or work cattle, gotta have a job against unruly game.

KM has answered everything that can be addressed in this thread.. IF IT CAN BE SAID IT HAS BEEN SAID..

APBT or game bred bulldog is the most PURE form of CANINE genetics.. THEY ARE RAW CANINE INSTINCT PURIFIED..


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## Rudy4747

Stan I badge heard a lot recently about people using bulldogs to hunt and remove Cyotes, what do you think this has any weight on the amount if game a dog has. I haeve to imagine that it does a dog going head first into a group of cyotes. Just wondering you thoughts?


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## 904bullys

agreed but just because a dog is devastating in the scratch box doesnt mean it will be the same on hogs and visa versa. Id be glad to give examples. Please ask.


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## 904bullys

Rudy4747 said:


> Stan I badge heard a lot recently about people using bulldogs to hunt and remove Cyotes, what do you think this has any weight on the amount if game a dog has. I haeve to imagine that it does a dog going head first into a group of cyotes. Just wondering you thoughts?


cyotes are a worthless advesary to a bulldog and to many other breeds for that matter


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## Elvisfink

You can't hunt with a game dog. Think about it, a game tested dog is going to go after the nearest dog, not the intended prey. There is only one way to game test a dog.


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## KMdogs

Rudy4747 said:


> Stan I badge heard a lot recently about people using bulldogs to hunt and remove Cyotes, what do you think this has any weight on the amount if game a dog has. I haeve to imagine that it does a dog going head first into a group of cyotes. Just wondering you thoughts?


Being able to dispatch has no bearing on game unless the scenario becomes extreme enough that tests instincts vs drive.. Ability to finish or ability to self preserve.

A hound can catch or strike for its entire life and never possess game, its all in scenario really..

In theoretical sense, you could match hound on hog as testing grounds to the point of facing one hell of a fighting boar thus proving game.. Though can be debatable, usually by those that haven't been exposed to such a hog, meaning one that wont run so easily. Naturally, theres limitations and theres nothing quite the same as dog on dog vs dog on other animal. In the sense of APBT, theres only one test to prove game as that is the purpose.. A Bulldog can possess game in much like an APBT however its not identically proven thus not identical.

As i've been saying, game is not a trait of just the APBT.. The best two examples of which offer the abilities to prove game is that of catch and PP.. Most lines of work and purpose do NOT offer such an extreme instance of which game is needed.. If it is not needed, you probably don't have many that prove.. If you don't have many that prove, your not going to have trait passed along often.. If at all.


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## Firehazard

Rudy4747 said:


> Stan I badge heard a lot recently about people using bulldogs to hunt and remove Cyotes, what do you think this has any weight on the amount if game a dog has. I haeve to imagine that it does a dog going head first into a group of cyotes. Just wondering you thoughts?


This is my main form of working my dogs.. We hunt coyotes. Two kinds of dogs are the best for coyotes; unstoppable power house that has some wind and knowledge about em, and a pure [] smart or [] intelligent game dog. I assure you if you send your dog out after a coyote or coyotes eventually his/her oil will get checked. The dog will have to decide if he will live or die. HINT.. WHEN using dogs to hunt other canine species its a good ideal to use a cotton ball and duct tape to cover the taint. Dogs have been disemboweled from coyotes and wolves its a favorite tactic for them to grab the sphincter and run pulling out all the instestines of the dog who will drop dead eventually.

Turk just killed two coyotes out of three a couple of weeks ago, the females come out to taunt the male dogs and males come out to taunt the female dogs, and then they jump the dog 3+ sometimes up to 15 or 20 in some rural areas. The female tried to come out and flirt but Turk decimated her and the two males come out and the one that bit Turks rump got GOT and his neck was broke very quick. This was around March 12 the monday of.










ironically Laika and Duchess ran off the other night and after 3 hrs of searching guess where I found em, ??? eatin on the leftovers head deep in coyote.

So really IMO predator control and or hunting is a PRIMARY way to keep these dogs intact however the way I do it I keep the dogs running hot... put miles in to get a kill and miles in to get back out.. how many is a variable usually at least 12-24mi. So a high end, INTELLIGENT dog is good, a Game sound dog is even better. Had a bear guy out in the sticks run across my path and said my dogs were clearing 30 mph through the mtns and was very impressed, needless to say he added a bulldog to his pack of hounds.  Exagerated IMO but not so much they move faster than coyotes, and deer, I run the ridge tops to keep up in distance. Its fun, its hard, its worth it.. 
Hope this helps, its been my experience. Since 2001 I've been coyote hunting with my dog(s) one or two at a time.


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## 904bullys

impressive but not a true test of game. Game as far as the apbt is concerned is done in a box against another apbt. period. no other way what so ever. A one on one apbt verse cyote. an apbt will prevail very, very easily. very. one apbt verse say 3 Andy Capps.. iYour dogs are amazing hunters but you honestly cant prove there game with out testing them one on one with a proven dog


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## 904bullys

i just see game thrown around to much around. The pit dogs of old are gone here in the states. The dogs of new who are bred for scratching illegally are absolute crap compared to those prior to to at least the mid eighties. The box dog is extinct as it should be. These are bulldogs we have and worked should they be but game is no more. Hunting, k9 sporting, therapy,ect. More and more this fine animal is proving to be the multi tool for the canine world. Proving way more vaservicesluable services


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## Firehazard

Get your hunting license, and get a predator call, I use the mouth piece calls when I catch a yote' running close. As soon as you know the dog sees the yote' let it go. LOL I really don't recommend this; its will tell you if you have worker or a feast for a pack of coyotes.


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## Firehazard

904bullys said:


> i just see game thrown around to much around. The pit dogs of old are gone here in the states. The dogs of new who are bred for scratching illegally are absolute crap compared to those prior to to at least the mid eighties. The box dog is extinct as it should be. These are bulldogs we have and worked should they be but game is no more. Hunting, k9 sporting, therapy,ect. More and more this fine animal is proving to be the multi tool for the canine world. Proving way more vaservicesluable services


Have you missed all the good posts by Sadie, KM, and Myself? Don't get it confused. 
Do you know how many so called and registered apbt fall as coyote bait? LOL go ahead give it a try  and as far as addressing the questions at hand everyone was answered and if you think Im confused about the true game test than you must have missed my 2300 other posts of the 3800 :rofl: because keeping a dog true to game is the most important part of preservation. *Legally* all we can do is condition the dog and just as they used to have to run a dog to give weight or dry a dog up for the [] back when, I do for the hunt today.. I haven't seen many REAL bulldogs that could last in a brunt of 3 or more coyotes and thats because everyone has a "game" pit bull.. I breed my own and work my own; Turk is a product of 10 yrs and my hunter; I do NOT hunt with the others although they do get to do predator control which is easy quick kills with no running other than on my immediate 10 acres. I picked up from some guys back when in Oklahoma where Wilsides Nino(who was the only dog I ever seen that could break a boars neck or crush its skull, he was a boar killer) was being pig tested and where I fell in to that but I like hunting so I incorporated both ideas and trust me MOST of the dogs of the people on this forum couldn't keep up with my Turk in the mtns most would die before ever even got into some coyotes or into a bear during season hunting the way I hunt with Turk, and now Laika is his back up agitator as a KBD shes an excellent big game and predator hunter. Laika can out run just about everything in the mtns; she was loose for over a week and come home, LOL NO ONES DOGS AROUND HERE return home they all end up as coyote food or wolf food. So Laika is a gem and also a proven worker. Heelers, Germans Shepherds, Rotties, Great Pyrenese, St Benards, and other strains of bulldogs have all been replaced with a Hooch blood bulldog because they were killed by coyotes or wolves. I've had many folks want to come out and run their dogs and I allow them to come out and work their dogs but 9 times of 10 their dogs crap out 5 miles in by 10 miles its time to be concerned about stopping the hunt. See thats where its at right there, can the dog run all day get into some real self life saving situations require the dog to conquer all or die trying because its a long way from home, and only the gamest of my dogs have lived to breed on.. Up here in the sticks there is NO USE in having a dog that is of NO USE. So most of these apbts aren't game enough to do much more than kill vermin in short few seconds out of ol boys truck; put a dog on a coyote aint game running a dog miles on end to engage in predators, LOL only the game survive. Thats what I require a dog of superior intelligence and not even knowing the meaning of quit. You dont know if you have it unless you test and breed and test your stock for it; and what I do is as close as I've found NEXT to the good ol boys hog testing that compares. In my world predator control rules and FIREHAZARD is a nick name given to me buy a handful of folks who got my Hooch dogs back when and after the dog burned through their yard they would laugh and say I need to put a "FIRE HAZARD" warning label on the sale of all my pups. A son of Hooch (Hooch in which all who know him know his accreditations) named Capone went to work for a fella outside of Plano and held the reign of 3 different cattle ranches all butted up together, the dog killed over 110 coyotes and his last night he killed 15 and injured 20 or more and was into a yote' while he was dying from being disemboweled... I've lived around Oklahoma most my life and I've seen them yotes ban up into them big packs to take a calf. PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN ..


> THE REAL BULLDOG was THROWN into the PIT and forever dubbed "Pit Bull".......... SLC


 So for me the proof is in the puddin' and because I know how to condition and calculate percentages of hours ran times weight and hours worked require certain amount of calories( which is my 10 cents) this is my 2 cents its free. Working and running are different tasks all together and a dog can loose wind or go cold from the stress of the run in or out, so don't kid yourself and think that any ol "pit bull" from the pound or around the way can work and kill coyotes or hog hunt because .. THEY CAN'T.. IF they CAN'T.. and only through WORK is a dog proven. Game dogs are the best hunting dogs; its the people that need to learn how to hunt with game dog again because they forgot.. A bulldog on every stagecoach in the Sooner Run, and back then they did it all nanny the kids, grab the bull, and go out for a night in the [], don't forget the herritage of the dog isn't solely the [] however it was in the [] the dogs were tested and purified to the finest they could be ..

Let me know when your dog kills two coyotes at once after a 10 mile run in the mtns. You can zoom in on the pick and see the bite wounds and mind you TURK is 37lbs, the female coyote was 38lbs and the male was 53lbs .. and the 3rd one ran for his own safety didn't weigh him.


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## Firehazard

904bullys said:


> impressive but not a true test of game. Game as far as the apbt is concerned is done in a box against another apbt. period. no other way what so ever. A one on one apbt verse cyote. an apbt will prevail very, very easily. very. one apbt verse say 3 Andy Capps.. iYour dogs are amazing hunters but you honestly cant prove there game with out testing them one on one with a proven dog


right .. right.. well thats why dog men have tried to cur out certain dogs from strains by tripple doggin em... ??? and the dog barely survive but NEVER cur or turned.. ... as I said in the journal insert above, hahaha.. If you can run your dog 10 miles NO EXAGGERATION (cant stand people who say they put in 5 or 10 miles and their dog is STRAIGHT .. OTC ( off the couch)) through moutain terrain engage and kill 2 of 3 or 3 of 5 coyotes and run back home possible killing more on the return I'll love to see it and I can call bull because I know what a dog will look like if he can do such feats, he/she look like Turk or like the conditioned dogs of yesteryear.

I take PROVEN APBT STOCK and breed OLD WORLD bulldogs out them and thats what I call my dogs are bulldogs, I have 4 APBTs but they will all produce high end working bulldogs that will be game enough to burn through any APBT yard, just as before.

I love the idea of predator control using game bred dogs, Hooch was sired by Tants John Henry so .. thats APBT and he was the best damn hunting dog ever, he could do it all, have countless witnesses; to him pointing, retrieving duck, rabbit, quail, and turkey.. Wild pigs X 2, and a mt. lion let alone the countless coyotes, and bobcat he killed before he ran into the mr mt. lion which took his tooth. I could hunt with other dogs with him with no problem.. Yeah things can get heated but I know dog psychology so well I see it happening and correct him by redirecting attention and energy on task at hand, and a seasoned dog wants that coyote trust me, especially cause their reward is FOOD and is fresh.

Look at how sound many ch dogs like Virgil are.. very good around other dogs but when you put them in the [] they uncannily know what to do.

I think some need to crack open their Stratton Books again and read up on some colby and Velvet and Steel. All are Bulldogs or Bandogs or even Terriers until proven otherwise... ONCE PROVEN ... they are then American Pit Bull Terriers. Politics doesn't change genetics. Colbys Pincher is the same dog with out 24 wins. Hahahaha Colbys PRimo had a ch sister in the UKC hmmm... Dogs are named for their function and location not the papers and proclamation.


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## Kingsgurl

Firehazard said:


> Game comes in variety of degrees.. this is simply DRIVE and PREY DRIVE at that. GAME itself is a concept that derived from putting the bull and terrier dogs in working situations against wild game and unruly stock the dogs proved themselves and eventually the [] was the only way to really test game stock and prove stock regardless of what politics says about bull baiting and bear baiting becoming illegal .. only in ENGLAND.. AS FAR AS game testing TODAY.. ITS NOT ILLEGAL EVERYWHERE only in the HUMANIAC countries that think ANIMALS have the right to be HUMANS and NOT ANIMALS. Animals have the humane right to be animals.. A sparrow will freeze to death in a frozen bog without ever feeling sorry for itself... SELF PITY IS A HUMAN DEFECT. IT IS WRONG to PLANT THOSE FEELINGS ON ANIMALS AND PLAY ON THE EMOTIONS OF PEOPLE.
> Game testing is perfectly legal in all countries that are not WESTERNIZED.
> 
> You want to game test here you can do it against wild hogs and you can figure the percentages so that the dog is ran or worked or dried up and the pig is equivalently 75% bigger than the dog and is a wild dog killing hog.. HOGS like to KILL DOGS, despite what you think you might know.
> 
> You want to HONOR the heritage of your dog as a pit dog; ... MOVE .. or by proven stock and use your dog to hunt or work cattle, gotta have a job against unruly game.
> 
> KM has answered everything that can be addressed in this thread.. IF IT CAN BE SAID IT HAS BEEN SAID..
> 
> *APBT or game bred bulldog is the most PURE form of CANINE genetics.. THEY ARE RAW CANINE INSTINCT PURIFIED*..


Um, no, it's not. The instinct, ability, and desire to stick to it in canine combat NO MATTER WHAT is a very human bred trait. It's actually AGAINST what nature's genetics would suggest a dog do, which would be to secure resources or territory while preserving life. They may be one of the most purely MANIPULATED breeds, bred to overlook one of the most fundamental of all of natures laws, self preservation, in pursuit of something else. They may be a tribute to man's influence, but they are not 'canine instinct purified' For thousands of years, canid's have either skulked about our trash heaps, made themselves useful by alerting to game, helped us in our hunting of other species, gathering or been our companions. Only very recently (as in the last slightly over one hundred years, which is but a BLIP on the man/dog relationship timeline) have we asked them to amuse us by turning on each other, and put the only merit on their 'worth' as 'real' dogs on their willingness to die in battle (or try) against another dog. What FireHazard talks of with hunting coyotes other wild game is actually much truer to the NATURAL instincts of dogs.
Not going to be a popular opinion, I am sure, but the fact remains (despite the fact that it is a bow to what the dog men of old were able to unintentionally produce). The APBT is a testament to human influence and manipulation. A dog who would do anything asked of him, despite pain, despite death. The sad thing is, once what was wanted of him is no longer in vogue or excepted, those same humans he was willing to die for, was BRED to give his life for, refuse to champion HIM. Dismiss him as not 'real' if he has shed no blood for them, while others vilify him for what he was bred to do.
This is the no win situation the breed now finds itself in.


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## Firehazard

Kingsgurl said:


> Um, no, it's not. The instinct, ability, and desire to stick to it in canine combat NO MATTER WHAT is a very human bred trait. It's actually AGAINST what nature's genetics would suggest a dog do, which would be to secure resources or territory while preserving life. They may be one of the most purely MANIPULATED breeds, bred to overlook one of the most fundamental of all of natures laws, self preservation, in pursuit of something else. They may be a tribute to man's influence, but they are not 'canine instinct purified' For thousands of years, canid's have either skulked about our trash heaps, made themselves useful by alerting to game, helped us in our hunting of other species, gathering or been our companions. Only very recently (as in the last slightly over one hundred years, which is but a BLIP on the man/dog relationship timeline) have we asked them to amuse us by turning on each other, and put the only merit on their 'worth' as 'real' dogs on their willingness to die in battle (or try) against another dog.
> Not going to be a popular opinion, I am sure, but the fact remains. The APBT is a testament to human influence and manipulation. A dog who would do anything asked of him, despite pain, despite death. The sad thing is, once what was wanted of him is no longer in vogue or excepted, those same humans he was willing to die for, was BRED to give his life for, refuse to champion HIM. Dismiss him as not 'real' if he has shed no blood for them, while others vilify him for what he was bred to do.
> This is the no win situation the breed now finds itself in.


UM .. then you obviously know more than COLBY, and STRATTON.. As that is a strong point they make.. THUS .. PURIFIED... that was done by man. IF YOU DONT understand the wild dogs and wolves have those that cur and those that don't their entire life; you'll never understand it. the pit bulldog is OLD .. and goes back to the alaunt brought off of the original Dogue De Boredeaux the fighting dog of Gaul which was a product originally of a large european wolf being bred to a large indian/chinese wolf the offpsring were brought back and purified in the fighting pit. Once England got the pit stock it took a whole NEW twist. The first Terriers registered were in 1886 and they were from inbreeding pit bulldogs which later became Staffordshire Bull Terriers. See Colby and Stratton both KNOW and point out plainly that bull and terrier are of one not seperate as politics who have you believe. .. I know these books and have 15 yrs of bulldog experience with 7yrs of wolf experience prior to that. Canine Behavior Specialist who operates in wolf logic as I work with dogs and always have. I know all about manipulation of genetic traits but your missing the fact that the trait is there to be isolated the minor part of manipulation, the harder part is keeping is constant and with remarkable results.

I started in wolf rescue and my knowledge of canine behavior is rooted in wolf rehabilitation and iditarod style alaskan huskies. STRATTON makes a point that anyone who wants to UNDERSTAND the genetics of the APBT needs to FIRST understand the wolf.

I used to think similarly to your statment, however time and old men proved me wrong. I could go on and on, however I know through time and experience of what I speak.


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## Kingsgurl

I know what you speak of too, but you are still speaking in a very 'new' (in the terms of evolution) times. My point stands. Wolves seldom, if EVER, fight to the death. True wild wolf packs are made up of familial groups and when the young become a challenge, they are run off. Not killed. You know that. WE made the APBT what it is today. We are now failing it. I said it wouldn't be a popular opinion, but you know it's true. Can you tell me we aren't?
Survival depends on adaptation. Colby and Stratton adapted dogs to THEIR era, which is now PAST. Either you let the American Bully breeders take over the APBT name and legacy, or we figure out how to legally preserve it. Maybe you are cool with calling what should be APBT, 'hounds' or 'bulldogs' or 'bandogs' and letting the APBT name be synonymous with 90 pound blue dogs with little or no relation, but I don't want to cur out that way.:rofl:
I think we may be making similar points in different words.


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## Firehazard

wolf eating another wolf.. 









wolf eating a deer.. look at the FUR .. of the top and this one









I found that image a few years ago, because there were wolves killing other wolves in Idaho and I wanted to point out that wolves eat other wolves and DA among most all dogs and even killing and eating a pack member is natural. My dogs will gang up on a cur or a dog yelping so I cannot afford to keep anything that may cur or its a slaughter I dont need.

the way I see it is like this.. If you only operate with the stock handed down by the men and women behind the traditional dog then understanding that the best is often immetated but rarely duplicated. We have the best dog in the world residing in a game bred dog which is really a BS term supposed to mean you have more than once ch on both sides of the first 3 gens. Its just a slang term. ITS IMPORTANT that all stock come from this. so we need to pull in APBT stock from outside the country from time to time and send some out as well


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## Kingsgurl

Wolves will kill interloping wolves or wolves not of their pack. Yet wolves live peacefully among themselves. How many of us have dogs who can not be around other dogs? There is a reason wild wolves kill off or challenge wolves NOT OF THEIR pack. Territory, game, etc. Yet, they also understand that they would DIE alone. They hunt as a PACK. We have taken those instincts we found valuable and negated those we found of no use. Depending on what you want to USE the dog for, those traits are fluid, and they exist in ALL dog breeds today.
You use your dogs to hunt, right?  If your dogs all turned on each other, rather than hunting game, and you came back with one dog from any hunt you attempted, and no game, how useful would they be for you?
Men like Colby and Stratton KNEW what they were doing was an abberation (a change in the natural progression of evolution) It wouldn't have been very remarkable otherwise, would it?


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## Firehazard

Kingsgurl said:


> Wolves will kill interloping wolves or wolves not of their pack. Yet wolves live peacefully among themselves. How many of us have dogs who can not be around other dogs? There is a reason wild wolves kill off or challenge wolves NOT OF THEIR pack. Territory, game, etc. Yet, they also understand that they would DIE alone. They hunt as a PACK. We have taken those instincts we found valuable and negated those we found of no use. Depending on what you want to USE the dog for, those traits are fluid, and they exist in ALL dog breeds today.
> You use your dogs to hunt, right? If your dogs all turned on each other, rather than hunting game, and you came back with one dog from any hunt you attempted, and no game, how useful would they be for you?


so now your explaining wolves to me? No.. Did you read my post? Wolves will kill WEAK members of their pack and eat them. NO CURS ALLOWED is instilled in the canine psyche a wolf showing submission isn't necessarily a cur in the wolf world; those get eatin. ..My dogs will devour weak hearted dogs; you keep up or you die trying... .. there straight from crayola mtn; the good dog men of the passed pulled it out and its up to us to preserve that.


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## Kingsgurl

I'm going to bow out of this now and go to bed......I've been drinking and I don't think you are actually reading what I am saying, and I am probably missing your points as well. I think you think I am arguing with you, yet many of our points are actually the same, though we come from different directions. You and I want the same thing...... the preservation of the APBT. We have different ideas of what that means and how to go about it, but unless we work together, the true breed IS doomed.


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## Firehazard

Kingsgurl said:


> I'm going to bow out of this now and go to bed......I've been drinking and I don't think you are actually reading what I am saying, and I am probably missing your points as well. I think you think I am arguing with you, yet many of our points are actually the same, though we come from different directions. You and I want the same thing...... the preservation of the APBT. We have different ideas of what that means and how to go about it, but unless we work together, the true breed IS doomed.


Hahahaha .. very true like the other IMPORTANT issues in the country today..


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## zohawn

Kingsgurl said:


> I'm going to bow out of this now and go to bed......I've been drinking and I don't think you are actually reading what I am saying, and I am probably missing your points as well. I think you think I am arguing with you, yet many of our points are actually the same, though we come from different directions. You and I want the same thing...... the preservation of the APBT. We have different ideas of what that means and how to go about it, but unless we work together, the true breed IS doomed.


i dont think the breed is doomed, theres people like me in it, who could care less what either of you, or anyone else, say. even though i agree with FH, if he dies tomorrow he can rip knowing that at least a few dogs and at least 1 line will be preserved.


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## 904bullys

Kingsgurl;514845 I think you think I am arguing with you said:


> very well put
> :clap:


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## KMdogs

Firehazard said:


> Have you missed all the good posts by Sadie, KM, and Myself? Don't get it confused.
> Do you know how many so called and registered apbt fall as coyote bait? LOL go ahead give it a try  and as far as addressing the questions at hand everyone was answered and if you think Im confused about the true game test than you must have missed my 2300 other posts of the 3800 :rofl: because keeping a dog true to game is the most important part of preservation. *Legally* all we can do is condition the dog and just as they used to have to run a dog to give weight or dry a dog up for the [] back when, I do for the hunt today.. I haven't seen many REAL bulldogs that could last in a brunt of 3 or more coyotes and thats because everyone has a "game" pit bull.. I breed my own and work my own; Turk is a product of 10 yrs and my hunter; I do NOT hunt with the others although they do get to do predator control which is easy quick kills with no running other than on my immediate 10 acres. I picked up from some guys back when in Oklahoma where Wilsides Nino(who was the only dog I ever seen that could break a boars neck or crush its skull, he was a boar killer) was being pig tested and where I fell in to that but I like hunting so I incorporated both ideas and trust me MOST of the dogs of the people on this forum couldn't keep up with my Turk in the mtns most would die before ever even got into some coyotes or into a bear during season hunting the way I hunt with Turk, and now Laika is his back up agitator as a KBD shes an excellent big game and predator hunter. Laika can out run just about everything in the mtns; she was loose for over a week and come home, LOL NO ONES DOGS AROUND HERE return home they all end up as coyote food or wolf food. So Laika is a gem and also a proven worker. Heelers, Germans Shepherds, Rotties, Great Pyrenese, St Benards, and other strains of bulldogs have all been replaced with a Hooch blood bulldog because they were killed by coyotes or wolves. I've had many folks want to come out and run their dogs and I allow them to come out and work their dogs but 9 times of 10 their dogs crap out 5 miles in by 10 miles its time to be concerned about stopping the hunt. See thats where its at right there, can the dog run all day get into some real self life saving situations require the dog to conquer all or die trying because its a long way from home, and only the gamest of my dogs have lived to breed on.. Up here in the sticks there is NO USE in having a dog that is of NO USE. So most of these apbts aren't game enough to do much more than kill vermin in short few seconds out of ol boys truck; put a dog on a coyote aint game running a dog miles on end to engage in predators, LOL only the game survive. Thats what I require a dog of superior intelligence and not even knowing the meaning of quit. You dont know if you have it unless you test and breed and test your stock for it; and what I do is as close as I've found NEXT to the good ol boys hog testing that compares. In my world predator control rules and FIREHAZARD is a nick name given to me buy a handful of folks who got my Hooch dogs back when and after the dog burned through their yard they would laugh and say I need to put a "FIRE HAZARD" warning label on the sale of all my pups. A son of Hooch (Hooch in which all who know him know his accreditations) named Capone went to work for a fella outside of Plano and held the reign of 3 different cattle ranches all butted up together, the dog killed over 110 coyotes and his last night he killed 15 and injured 20 or more and was into a yote' while he was dying from being disemboweled... I've lived around Oklahoma most my life and I've seen them yotes ban up into them big packs to take a calf. PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN .. So for me the proof is in the puddin' and because I know how to condition and calculate percentages of hours ran times weight and hours worked require certain amount of calories( which is my 10 cents) this is my 2 cents its free. Working and running are different tasks all together and a dog can loose wind or go cold from the stress of the run in or out, so don't kid yourself and think that any ol "pit bull" from the pound or around the way can work and kill coyotes or hog hunt because .. THEY CAN'T.. IF they CAN'T.. and only through WORK is a dog proven. Game dogs are the best hunting dogs; its the people that need to learn how to hunt with game dog again because they forgot.. A bulldog on every stagecoach in the Sooner Run, and back then they did it all nanny the kids, grab the bull, and go out for a night in the [], don't forget the herritage of the dog isn't solely the [] however it was in the [] the dogs were tested and purified to the finest they could be ..
> 
> Let me know when your dog kills two coyotes at once after a 10 mile run in the mtns. You can zoom in on the pick and see the bite wounds and mind you TURK is 37lbs, the female coyote was 38lbs and the male was 53lbs .. and the 3rd one ran for his own safety didn't weigh him.


:goodpost: I mean theres only so many ways of telling it, you get it or you don't.. We aren't just talking about APBTs as the APBT is not the only one that can possess game.. If you believe the [] is the only one look no further that the middle east for countless pit dogs that are NOT APBTs however still possess game.. Game is the inability to quit against all odds, the instinct of self preservation is replaced (until breaking point or turning dead game) by pure drive and will.. There are LEGAL venues that can still offer this test of ability, however it boils back down to mindset..

If anyone believes a hound that has been trampled, broken bones, blinded, etc but still continues to hunt and finish the job is just a hound doing what it should.. I ask you to go out on the field and just see how many of these damn fine hounds that will NOT continue in such a dire position.. That is NOT what is asked, hounds die in the field yes however i think people are dismissing the obvious.

If you don't believe Coyote can make it try using catch dogs on deer or attempting to bay or trap a wild bear and see how many hounds get killed. I know very few that use dogs on deer and i don't have a significant amount of years yet on deer.. HOWEVER successful thus far and i'll tell you yes they will run but the risk is far higher than just about anything else you could subject to your hound.. A kick.. A buck that refuses to go down, antlers piercing through your hound.. They grab hold they better be fully committed or your in for one hell of a out come and fight. Stan knows about that.. :cheers:

This debate has been around and probably always will, what is game and how you find it.. In the APBT theres only one method to claim APBT and its right there in the name.. A bulldog, bandog, mastiff, catch dog.. Can possess game and in my personal opinion dismissing some of these oddities that have lived through such extreme conditions as nothing more than just good at what they do is a bit demeaning..

Hell i saw someone say on here a few pages back before that one got banned that they don't consider it game because as a catch dog they are just doing what they were bred to do.. With that mind set, an APBT being []ed somewhere around the world is just doing what IT was bred to do.. There is no difference other than the line of purpose in these sense that both are doing what they were designed for.. THAT and the APBT requires game to live another day and win... To be matched one must be tested.. In the case of other venues, it is NOT required however it can be proven.

Anyone who thinks it would be easy for a proven APBT to survive against 2 or 3 wolves or coyotes has not a clue of the power nor mentality of those animals.


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## Shark

I just wanted to say that this thread is amazingly interesting. Firehazard, it's not every day you get to read the accounts of someone who has a pack of dogs he uses to hunt. I would LOVE to get to see that first hand one day.

Fascinating stuff!


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## jdawg

Cool! Great Explanation!


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## IRONHIDE

Nice post firehazard. It all boils down to do or die tryin you wiil never know a dogs game till ya see him loosing . Ps to all you bozo's in a match every scratch gives a dog the opertunity to quit gamness keeps them going back not the handler...


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## rabbit

This was an interesting read some knowledgeable people going back in forth I do have to say that KM's info is the information I tend to follow 
When KM said that dogs in the pit were not just thrown in they wanted to be there (that's not a direct quote) It's the truth years ago I received a pit type dog from an older man who I can only assume had no good intentions for her none the less I took her in. My family owns some acres and other family members own some as well I had my dog out and a family members dog crossed on to our property My female dog enjoyed ripping into it she really enjoyed it she never got another dog but I'll never forget the way she looked that day


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## OldDog

Rudy4747 said:


> Stan I badge heard a lot recently about people using bulldogs to hunt and remove Cyotes, what do you think this has any weight on the amount if game a dog has. I haeve to imagine that it does a dog going head first into a group of cyotes. Just wondering you thoughts?


 Not a group , generally ( and as far back as the '60s) the bulldog was utilised as a kill dog , hounds or sighthounds being used to run the coyote for a while prior , sometimes in relays since of course coyotes will often cover a great deal of ground in a large roughly circular pattern.

If the coyote bays up , the bulldog is turned loose , the problem being that the dog has to be trusted to leave the hounds alone.

As far as " gameness" , really nothing whatsoever , after all they're sending a bulldog on a coyote that has already been run ragged over who knows what distance.


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## OldDog

Firehazard said:


> UM .. then you obviously know more than COLBY, and STRATTON.. .


 I'm quite willing to discuss and highlight these points with you since I do of course agree with many of them.

That said could you please dispense with the Hyperbolic namedropping as in the above?

You might ascertain both mens reputations in performance circles prior to deification. And frankly Dick Stratton would tell you the same thing , I would know that 'cause I've heard him say such things to adoring slobberers at various dogshows and other events.

By the way , one of the areas I disagree with you is as relates to killing coyotes being a test of gameness ( that being the word , not the " got game" stuff..........that's for basketball) , killing coyotes is a test of short end quick skill and performance , the combat , even if the dog runs into trouble is relatively short in duration. The 10 mile runup has nothing on wrestling in a box with opposition.And possible constant damage.

There are no 2 hour duration and beyond combat contests in coyote hunting.


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## OldDog

IRONHIDE said:


> Nice post firehazard. It all boils down to do or die tryin you wiil never know a dogs game till ya see him loosing . Ps to all you bozo's in a match every scratch gives a dog the opertunity to quit gamness keeps them going back not the handler...


 Sighhhhh another oft promoted myth , of course gameness is a major factor , however there's many an example of dogs scratching for a handler , many of those examples being noted as *very* game dogs. And of course most details being unsuitable for an open forum with the probable peta whack type lurkers , radical rescuers etc.etc.

And quite frankly many folks seemingly can't remember the basic fact that certain major bloodlines are founded upon dogs that many/most folks and history consider to be curs. Said dogs *produced* , and more importantly they produced dogs that themselves produced.


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## atzalon

As I do not want anyone to say Im promoteing Dog fighting, I do know of an old school way to estamate the depth of the heart in a dog. DO NOT ROLL YOUR PUPS! When he is 18 months old put him down with adog that will push him hard but not kill him. Your dog should be a little heavy so he will be working uphill. He should go thirty minutes without turning or showing a bad sign. At thirty pick him up and see if he will scratch without stopping. If he goes off his feet or into any shock pick him up. Clean him up and the next day bring a dog into his area and see if he will get to his feet and hit the fresh one. Dont let it go on just see how eager he is to do it. I had one that pushed himself accross on his nose,to hit the fresh one, his front legs were chewed and wouldnt work. VERY GAME.


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## Firehazard

been a while since I've been here... Okay.. the hunt is the closest your going to get legally in this country.. Put your dog in a situation of survival .. Most people who hunt hogs with game bred APBTs drive in and walk them on a lead until hounds find pigs.. I do not... I run in and run out.. ... No bout with coyotes last 2hrs .. :hammer: well get out there and try it... NO a good bulldog will melt right through them yotes.. HOWEVER.. let your dog out at the wrong time and you'll see what I mean when you have to save your dog. .. my dogs also have to handle moose that wander on to the acreage or try to get bully on our runs.. My newest dog just went through that this summer she got into a bull moose and stumbled away after the bull moose dropped in exhaustion covered in bruises and road rash... the last thing you do is get in that; I wan't there my neighbor told me about it.. So she was fighting for her life and out of prey drive and out of game at some point because bull moose kill dogs all the time.

Is this game testing? Not by way of any dogman... Have to remind yourselves that game was derived first from huntin and handling feral and big game. This is just being honest to your dog as all bulldogs are catchdogs. Just as all these dogs are bulldogs, bandogs, or terriers.. nothing more nothing less unless proven otherwise..

TRUE game is only testing in a controlled experimetal environment as breeding is scientific and that is the scientific way of purifying the game gene within a breed of dog.

What I do is run well bred game dogs as dogs that they are, dogs of prey.. Can every bulldog(apbt) do this? NO.. just like not all them go the distance in the [].

Unless your willing to endevor into illegal practices hunting big game and predator control is as close to testing what game your dogs do possess. Yes every ped and most all dogs have a cur or more in there somewhere.. Curs have produced game dogs and dogs that went cold have done the same.

As far as name dropping?; Im speaking on the public knowledge those men disclosed into books for EVERYONE to understand and learn. For instance Stratton mentions before anyone gets involved in bulldogs they study and understand wolves. "The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier".. So when people start arguing facts presented by the authorities on the breed and those who founded it and rubbed shoulders with those who founded it, I tend to throw some scarcasm in there because I wrongly assume that every one who thinks they know bulldogs has read the library of Stratton and the other books by other dogmen: Stevens, Rocca, Faron, Colby etc.. Combining with experience... BUT thats not the case..

Those who have ears should hear; those who have eyes should see.....


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## Thaivo

Why the hell would you want to know if your dog is game or not? Dude now a day people only use drive. Gameness is when two dogs are fighting and are badly wounded but refuse to give up. What are u planning to do with your dog. Pitbull now day don't need to have gaminess in them. What for? They are no longer force to fight other dogs.


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## EckoMac

Thaivo said:


> Why the hell would you want to know if your dog is game or not? Dude now a day people only use drive. Gameness is when two dogs are fighting and are badly wounded but refuse to give up. What are u planning to do with your dog. Pitbull now day don't need to have gaminess in them. What for? They are no longer force to fight other dogs.


They were never forced to fight other dogs.
The American Pit Bull Terrier was bred to fight and bred for gameness. Those two things define the breed.
You should do a little more research before jumping on a thread that you have nothing to do with.


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## redog

Thaivo said:


> Why the hell would you want to know if your dog is game or not? Dude now a day people only use drive. Gameness is when two dogs are fighting and are badly wounded but refuse to give up. What are u planning to do with your dog. Pitbull now day don't need to have gaminess in them. What for? They are no longer force to fight other dogs.


Let me try to explain this so you might understand.....gameness as a trait in today's society is not as desirable as the traits that come with it. e.i. The good and positive things that come with said trait. Weight pulling, bear and hog hunting or any other "work" can be a more usefull use of the trait, but there is the occasional "A" hole that wants that trait for illegal things. We're not even talking about that here. Nor are we talking about pet bulls. And Noone wants to depend on "drive" when it comes to hogs. Drive can't equal the willingness to accomplish a job, not run away and leave a hunter on his own.
Just be aware enough to know that all dogs are not couch potatoes nor are they all "pets", but they all are awesome animals. Still as loving, dependable and not deserving of being discriminated against....


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## Black Rabbit

redog said:


> Let me try to explain this so you might understand.....gameness as a trait in today's society is not as desirable as the traits that come with it. e.i. The good and positive things that come with said trait. Weight pulling, bear and hog hunting or any other "work" can be a more usefull use of the trait, but there is the occasional "A" hole that wants that trait for illegal things. We're not even talking about that here. Nor are we talking about pet bulls. And Noone wants to depend on "drive" when it comes to hogs. Drive can't equal the willingness to accomplish a job, not run away and leave a hunter on his own.
> Just be aware enough to know that all dogs are not couch potatoes nor are they all "pets", but they all are awesome animals. Still as loving, dependable and not deserving of being discriminated against....


Amen to that one boss man!!! The reason these dogs excell at things like search and rescue is because they will tenaciously brave extreme weather and practically kill themselves to save someone and get the job done. That will and spirit make them one of the best breeds on the planet IMO


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## mi16reisen

I do not exactly know the meaning of "game" but I will post on how my dog was tested for search and rescue work. Several of the core instincts a SAR dog must have is the desire for the hunt. A great SAR dog will have infallible prey drive and will "kill" its toys. They will also continue working through uncomfortable situations, pain, and fatigue. We don't beat a dog to see if it gives up, but it will show in their work. My girl has been slashed up from the environment plenty of times. She has worked with thorns in her paws and does not care. Her nerves are pretty solid.

Combat drive, the drive to fight back, is completely useless for a SAR dog. So if game means to attack and to bring down a large prey, then I believe my dog is not that. I have never tested her for combat, but I'd imagine that pronounced prey AND combat drive would make a "game" dog.

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Firehazard

game is proven.. or bred for... even when bred for its not game, unless proven game whether over seas in a country where legalized sanctioned bouts still happen. In illegal [] actions here in the USA. Also in a minor degree in extensive catch work and predator control work. People still need dogs like this, the world isnt covered in a concrete jungle where everyone believes food comes from a package. There is a major disconnect problem with people and simple truth matters of life.


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## brixychap

pitbull terriers came to america from ireland.im irish born and bred the last 33 years,iv been around dogs all my life,mainly pitbulls,staffs and lurchers.i hav 2 female pits at d minute,7 month old sisters.if u want ta talk about gameness for me its not about fight,i hunt all d time,des 2 sisters are always first in and last out on rabbits, foxes,badger and jus about anything else we hunt.pits are born ta hunt,and ders no better pitbull than an irish bred pitbull.fact


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## pookie!

https://www.facebook.com/notes/champ-hellisempty-kennel/the-terms-game-and-gameness/294917503976396

A dog proving game means one thing and one thing only in the APBT, if you want to use that term in reference to hunting, weight pull, fetch, whatever.. dont. Use a word that already describes those things and pertains to those things and dont try and change the meaning to a word that is very carefully defined in the breed by the creators and forefathers.


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## OldDog

brixychap said:


> pitbull terriers came to america from ireland.im irish born and bred the last 33 years,iv been around dogs all my life,mainly pitbulls,staffs and lurchers.i hav 2 female pits at d minute,7 month old sisters.if u want ta talk about gameness for me its not about fight,i hunt all d time,des 2 sisters are always first in and last out on rabbits, foxes,badger and jus about anything else we hunt.pits are born ta hunt,and ders no better pitbull than an irish bred pitbull.fact


 Disagree with that last , and yes I've been to your side of the pond and seen the dogs , Psycho B type dogs , Limey Kennels stuff , what have you. There are some damned good ones , but " the best"..........not a chance.

And gameness means one thing in competition , means entirely another thing for hunting purposes , and yes since I was involved in Fells Terriers for a long long time ( straight Booth dogs and Booth/Nuttall dogs) I know what that entails.

And nope I'm not slagging off the Irish dogs , you might keep in mind the dogs that got imported back over their and ended up bred into various lines , dogs such as Gr.Ch. Badger among others.


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## pookie!

There are good dogs in a lot of places, but I personally think, consistently we produce the best. There is a reason we have dogs from here imported all over the world.


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## Firehazard

pookie! said:


> https://www.facebook.com/notes/champ-hellisempty-kennel/the-terms-game-and-gameness/294917503976396
> 
> A dog proving game means one thing and one thing only in the APBT, if you want to use that term in reference to hunting, weight pull, fetch, whatever.. dont. Use a word that already describes those things and pertains to those things and dont try and change the meaning to a word that is very carefully defined in the breed by the creators and forefathers.


pretty sure I cleared that up  :cheers:

The [] is the scientific method in a controlled environment of proving game.

and yep Ol dog when hunting game is needed on a whole other level, if the dog screws up, its on me literally.

at all other OP who might misconstrue what I posted.. 
Is it proven? Not by any dogmans standards. Game is needed for the dog to conquer its over sized quarry don't kid yourself. Predator Control is utilizing a dog of prey at what it does best  It proves itself in the work or it don't work; dogs that don't work just wont work  Play on words.... 
The [] is for only for proving game; unless you like to wager I guess, but in my mind its for the purpose of proving game and no other. What I do is provide folks with bulldogs worthy of predator control; up here dogs disappear and die on a daily basis while people are all so afraid to get a well bred "pit bull" and loose countless $ on other breeds to get eatin by predators or killed by moose. The American Pit Bull Terrier and the Karelian Bear Dog are the only two dogs that have been able to make the cut of a survival dog in the wilderness or a land, ranch, property dog... Completely different animals both reign supreme at working predators and large land mammals Moose, cattle, etc... 
So don't get it confused I am utilizing game dogs for a purpose more than just 4 corners, to establish bulldogs back where they should be; the intelligent and prestige dog to own, especially when you live where you need a dog that will take care of you and yours. A tool, the companionship is a perk.


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## KMdogs

Gameness in hunting dogs vs gameness in the [] are utilizing the same genetic foundations for two very different functions, anyone that believes.Gameness can not be utilized in the field has.lacked there of experience in such. I am not suggesting an alternative to the ring nor does it equal to,

Vermin hunting does not bring your animal to the mental and physical ability to show what "Gameness" is within, in either avenue you must breach a point of conflicting matters for a human.. the point of which tests the uncanny strength mentality and physically to get the job done under some of the harshest elements of which majority of animals both wild and domesticated flee as survival and instict tells them to leave.

Dogo Argentino is one of the best examples of taking Gameness and utilizing the gene pool to a more diverse ability where such limitation of game can become broader and efficiently instilled.

The same genetic homeage can be found in the old war dogs and modern Bandog... Again, a new direction utilizing the same genetic disposition to enable such animals the ability to defeat odds and achieve purposes that the common animal cannot achieve.

There is no substitute for the methods of profound in the APBT, it is the only method of which deems the carried name and all that is defined by.. However, the APBT is not the only breed, if you will, to utilize and carry such gene. Though to be fair,.all of which intertwined back to the Bandog and Bulldog which within themselves were intertwined with various out comes.


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## pookie!

I am not going to put it as eloquently as KM did but I have seen (heard of more so) of some terriers showing "gameness" and even "dead game" terriers in hunts with badgers etc. They can show something similar to the APBTs "gameness" in their hunts when pushed to that limit where most dogs would have that self preservation kick in, is the the same as the gameness an APBT shows in the [], no.. but it sure as shit is something when you see a dog with no bottom jaw and broken front legs still going at a badger...

And thats an extreme example as to what I think is the only exception in the definition of the term is, and I wouldnt mind someone saying their patterdale who exhibited such behavior is "game" because its hard to put a word to a dog doing something like that. Now your dog that held onto a spring pole hide for an hour is not game lol


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## Firehazard

KMdogs said:


> Gameness in hunting dogs vs gameness in the [] are utilizing the same genetic foundations for two very different functions, anyone that believes.Gameness can not be utilized in the field has.lacked there of experience in such. I am not suggesting an alternative to the ring nor does it equal to,
> 
> Vermin hunting does not bring your animal to the mental and physical ability to show what "Gameness" is within, in either avenue you must breach a point of conflicting matters for a human.. the point of which tests the uncanny strength mentality and physically to get the job done under some of the harshest elements of which majority of animals both wild and domesticated flee as survival and instict tells them to leave.
> 
> Dogo Argentino is one of the best examples of taking Gameness and utilizing the gene pool to a more diverse ability where such limitation of game can become broader and efficiently instilled.
> 
> The same genetic homeage can be found in the old war dogs and modern Bandog... Again, a new direction utilizing the same genetic disposition to enable such animals the ability to defeat odds and achieve purposes that the common animal cannot achieve.
> 
> There is no substitute for the methods of profound in the APBT, it is the only method of which deems the carried name and all that is defined by.. However, the APBT is not the only breed, if you will, to utilize and carry such gene. Though to be fair,.all of which intertwined back to the Bandog and Bulldog which within themselves were intertwined with various out comes.


Thanks KM!!! once again filling in the blanks... where I wrongly assume this was common knowledge. :goodpost: Say it in CrAyOn!~


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## KMdogs

pookie! said:


> I am not going to put it as eloquently as KM did but I have seen (heard of more so) of some terriers showing "gameness" and even "dead game" terriers in hunts with badgers etc. They can show something similar to the APBTs "gameness" in their hunts when pushed to that limit where most dogs would have that self preservation kick in, is the the same as the gameness an APBT shows in the [], no.. but it sure as shit is something when you see a dog with no bottom jaw and broken front legs still going at a badger...
> 
> And thats an extreme example as to what I think is the only exception in the definition of the term is, and I wouldnt mind someone saying their patterdale who exhibited such behavior is "game" because its hard to put a word to a dog doing something like that. Now your dog that held onto a spring pole hide for an hour is not game lol


Something to consider as well with that theoretical paddledale is there have been many game dogs of which did not have to endure that sort of punishment.

Very extreme scenario and if you know and understand what your looking at, avoiding such scenario is beyond possible if you know how to utilize and maximize during hunts.


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## pookie!

KMdogs said:


> Something to consider as well with that theoretical paddledale is there have been many game dogs of which did not have to endure that sort of punishment.
> 
> Very extreme scenario and if you know and understand what your looking at, avoiding such scenario is beyond possible if you know how to utilize and maximize during hunts.


This is true, most game tested dogs didnt come close to the kind damage I have seen some Patterdales work through.

Exactly. Thats probably why most game tested dogs of yester year didnt need to go to such lengths. I once heard, "you dont need to go outside the hour mark if you know what you are doing." No need in "fucking up your own shit" as they said lol

I honestly cannot wait to move and get some Patterdales, they have me very excited because they would be a new breed that I could go hunt with. I remember growing up with a "non show bred" yorkie and she is what started my terrier addiction. She was one bad bitch.


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## Katey

I had not heard or Patterdales until i came on this site. They sound like great dogs. I have a friend with a Jack Russell Terrier who took on a full grown bull Vervet monkey of his own choosing and came out on top.

So I don't think that hunting gameness is something that is exclusive to the APBT. But I think that it is maybe an exclusively terrier thing.

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## pookie!

hunting "gameness" in refernence to smaller terrier breeds and true APBT style [] gameness are two different things. (just for reference)


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## OldDog

Katey said:


> I had not heard or Patterdales until i came on this site. They sound like great dogs. I have a friend with a Jack Russell Terrier who took on a full grown bull Vervet monkey of his own choosing and came out on top.
> 
> So I don't think that hunting gameness is something that is exclusive to the APBT. But I think that it is maybe an exclusively terrier thing.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Patterdales ( Fells Terriers) are hell on wheels ,some of them can be more trouble than many bulldogs to keep.


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## OldDog

pookie! said:


> hunting "gameness" in refernence to smaller terrier breeds and true APBT style [] gameness are two different things. (just for reference)


 Maybe , but perhaps not , there's many a Fells or Jagdterrier that will take their death in battle rather than quit.

Look up Riviota's ' Noah" sometime , if you can't find it I'll relate the story.


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## Katey

OldDog said:


> Maybe , but perhaps not , there's many a Fells or Jagdterrier that will take their death in battle rather than quit.
> 
> Look up Riviota's ' Noah" sometime , if you can't find it I'll relate the story.


I came across a thread where you related the story. Sounds like an incredible animal.

I am always amazed at the tenacity of some terriers.

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## randallpits

There is absolutely no substitute for game testing a dog other than the old way. However there are different aspects to the overall test, and some of these can be looked at by other means. I won't go into all of this on this chat board, but feel free to contact me for a more in depth discussion. Its difficult to discuss a topic of this magnitude without sounding like you support it, and I certainly don't want to appear that way. My only intention here is to educate someone with the truth about the history of these great dogs, and like it or not gameness was the primary reason that these dogs do the things that they do so well. I also say that if you don't test ; in some manor its just a matter of a few generations ,and you've lost your true pit bull. [email protected] Not here to discuss this ,and hope it has not offended anyone. Its just my statement, and by no means does it cover the subject in its entirety


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## Satsujin

The way to 'game test' your dog, in a safe way, is to put an animal in a STRONG cage and have your dog standing outside the cage. Get them excited, make the animal move around, if your dog wants to get to that animal in an aggressive manner and maintain that aggressive approach for a long period of time, that means they are 'gamey'. And you know you can't bring your dog around other animals.
It's how hog hunters train their dogs. They show young dogs how big, trained, dogs respond to the hog in the pen. If they don't pick it up, they're not meant for hunting. If they respond for a moment, and lose interest, they're not game dogs.


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## MSK

Satsujin said:


> The way to 'game test' your dog, in a safe way, is to *put an animal in a STRONG cage and have your dog standing outside the cage. Get them excited, make the animal move around, if your dog wants to get to that animal in an aggressive manner and maintain that aggressive approach for a long period of time, that means they are 'gamey*'. And you know you can't bring your dog around other animals.
> It's how hog hunters train their dogs. They show young dogs how big, trained, dogs respond to the hog in the pen. If they don't pick it up, they're not meant for hunting. If they respond for a moment, and lose interest, they're not game dogs.


All that means is your dog has prey drive and determination nothing more!


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## redog

Just what I was thinking Amanda! Even though it is explained extensively in this thread, there still is a major misconception about "gameness"


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## Goemon

Yeah, the majority of modern owners mistake aggression for gameness. 
Aggression and gameness are at two ends of the pole. 
Aggression is the first thing seen, gameness the last. 

Gameness isn't seen until a dog is pushed beyond its limits and its life is on the line. 
It is the trait that allows it to overcome against all odds. 
A dog that is game will take a whipping, yet think it is winning, and want to get back into action. 

Many a game dog has won when its opponent, who was winning the whole time, refuses to scratch into the dog that doesn't quit.

Also, it is something that cannot be trained. It has it at birth, or not at all.


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## KMdogs

Satsujin said:


> The way to 'game test' your dog, in a safe way, is to put an animal in a STRONG cage and have your dog standing outside the cage. Get them excited, make the animal move around, if your dog wants to get to that animal in an aggressive manner and maintain that aggressive approach for a long period of time, that means they are 'gamey'. And you know you can't bring your dog around other animals.
> It's how hog hunters train their dogs. They show young dogs how big, trained, dogs respond to the hog in the pen. If they don't pick it up, they're not meant for hunting. If they respond for a moment, and lose interest, they're not game dogs.


That has nothing to do with determining game nor hog hunting..

Answers already in this thread, if it can be said it already has been said.

Don't know what sort of "hunters" you've been talking to but i'd recommend you get with another crowd.


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## APBTN00b

I don't understand what is so important about gameness? Other than its what some people say makes or breaks the breed. If reading correctly, a dog wanting to continue to walk after being past exhaustion would show gameness ... A dog willing to continue to train even in the absolute worse weather would show gameness. A dog willing to protect its owner even though its bleeding to death would show gameness.

am I wrong?


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## DieselsMommie

APBTN00b said:


> I don't understand what is so important about gameness? Other than its what some people say makes or breaks the breed. If reading correctly, a dog wanting to continue to walk after being past exhaustion would show gameness ... A dog willing to continue to train even in the absolute worse weather would show gameness. A dog willing to protect its owner even though its bleeding to death would show gameness.
> 
> am I wrong?


I see what your saying. I would agree with you, bc if a dog does all that then they should do it in the pit then right?

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## pimpidypimp

DieselsMommie said:


> I see what your saying. I would agree with you, bc if a dog does all that then they should do it in the pit then right?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If you've never seen "Gameness" in it's proper form you could never get a true understanding. There is no words to discribe an amazing dispay of it.


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## APBTN00b

pimpidypimp said:


> If you've never seen "Gameness" in it's proper form you could never get a true understanding. There is no words to discribe an amazing dispay of it.


I pray I never see this display you are speaking about. I just don't see where you have to have Gameness in the []. I believe that a true 'game dog' would show game no matter the situation, not just in a [].

@Diesalsmommy- Correct. I don't see why people are still going about saying the only true test of a game dog is dog matching. I believe there are other displays of this trait. But that is me and what I believe. Others may see different.


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## pimpidypimp

I just read all 4 pages. I must say that the level of BS on this thread is truly staggering.


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## Just Tap Pits

pimpidypimp said:


> I just read all 4 pages. I must say that the level of BS on this thread is truly staggering.


Well at all cost of sounding like a dbag (which I sincerely am not trying to be) please enlighten us.


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## pimpidypimp

Actually I think I'm gonna leave this one alone.


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## Just Tap Pits

pimpidypimp said:


> Actually I think I'm gonna leave this one alone.


Could at least drop a pm but may I remind u that u brought it up... im really interested in ur point of view but if u wanna bark and hop walls I cant stop ya...  lol


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