# For all you Cesar Millan fans....



## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

PLease please please check out this link where another trainer makes comments about what's really going on, same video as below but with comments...... VERY eye opening.

Holly -Body Language dissected | Facebook

If you can't view this one then see the video below.





I absolutely love this video as it shows how incompetent he is! I have to say it made me smile to watch him get bit and cheer for the dog! lol There is no reason he has to hit the dog in the neck for something like resource guarding, there are other better methods than this. He also then pushes her in a position where she feels she has no other choice but to bite him.

I LOVE when he makes the comment, "I didn't see that coming"

Ummm even someone who is not a trainer and understands behaviour can see the inevitable bite he receives. Those that know me, know that I am not opposed to corrections but this is not how they are done and the dog is justified by biting CM. Not all trainers will agree how to handle situations like this but clearly having the dog off leash with no way to correct without getting into this type of conflict is just ignorant. Enjoy! lol


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

I can't stand that MF! Good post woman, thank you! People are brainwashed!


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Yes some people believe everything they see on TV! Bugs me to hell.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Epic fail! Did the owner ever get the dog back? I don't even know why they aired this episode. It sends the wrong message all around. Haha no way does he have the same mojo that Lisa has


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## cEElint (Oct 6, 2009)

What a clown.. never watched his garbage before.. good doggie, dont let that mf'er hit u


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

HA! Jim actually did a similar write up on the same thing. Cesar is such a tool, some dogs need different approaches, he treats them all the same no matter what, and he is an idiot! So disheartening how many believe this crap.

Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: Food Aggression and a Famous Trainer

Those of you who have followed my little blog here for any time know a few things about me. First, I deal with aggressive dogs and their behavior problems, with an eye towards treating the problems. Second, I evaluate dogs that have been labeled aggressive, and often legally declared Dangerous Dogs, to find out what makes them tick and to recommend, if appropriate, treatment and management options. Third, I too often deal with truly dangerous dogs-dogs that have killed human beings. I also do detailed evaluations of those dogs, some of which have been posted here, and give a detailed breakdown of the specific behaviors observed and the circumstances under which they happened. A few of these are also on the blog. I also look at other evaluations from time to time to give an opinion of the behavior displayed and quantify that behavior.

That is what I am going to do today. I was sent the clip of a Famous Dog Trainer from their TV season finale show, and after fielding numerous questions I am going to go frame by frame and explain what I see-and then give a little opinion or two.

The Famous Dog Trainer's clip can be found on YouTube here 



. I am going to proceed based on that posted clip and use the time marks given on the clip to illustrate the specific behaviors. If you would like go ahead and pull up the video, grab a beverage, and watch along with me.

One caveat here: remember that when you are in the midst of an evaluation or training session you may not see absolutely everything the dog is doing, based on your angle and the dog's angle-BUT, if you are face to face I certainly expect the trainer/evaluator to have at least basic situation awareness and a general idea of the signals and posture of the dog.

I also have to point out here that the FDT is not wearing any gloves or other protective gear. I wear protective gloves lined with Spectra/Kevlar when dealing with a potential bite issue for a reason: if I am bitten, not only do I get hurt but, in some jurisdictions, especially with dogs that have been identified as having issues, me getting bitten may be the death sentence for the dog, even if it is my fault (which it usually is). There is no room for error because the dog is going to pay the price.

At 00:01 the Famous Dog Trainer (hereafter FDT) places a bowl of food in front of the dog. The dog approaches the food and the FDT stares directly at the dog through 00:09. As the dog averts her gaze, turns her head to the side and down, showing a clear appeasement signal ("submission" in some people's terms) the FDT says "that's unsure, that's not submission". The FDT then tells the dog (at 00:11) "good girl" and she begins to eat, ignoring the FDT.

At 00:17 the FDT moves his body directly over the eating dog and the food bowl in a low crouch. He is staring directly at the dog, frontally positioned. Dog gives a warning air snap with no physical contact, showing bite control and basic restraint.

At 00:18 FDT strikes the dog in the left side of her neck with his right hand. The dog retreats, baring teeth and growling, giving both audible and postural warning of discomfort and desire for the FDT to retreat. The FDT pursues the dog past the food bowl, still in a frontal posture, low crouch, and staring, directly challenging the dog. The dog gives another air snap and snarl of warning (00:22). The dog is backed up, but shows restraint by not pursuing the FDT, but instead gives (2) appeasement (submissive) licks (00:23 and 00:24), closes her mouth, gives seven (7) further appeasement licks, averts her gaze (00:28), gives an audible warning snarl (00:33), gives six (6) more licks and averts her gaze repeatedly while the FDT maintains his frontal threatening position and stare, challenging the dog and failing to respond to the many appeasement gestures. At 00:41 the dog looks the FDT in the eye, immediately averts her gaze, and looks around for an avenue of flight from this strange, aggressive person. The FDT maintains his overtly challenging threat posture.

At 00:47, looking confused, the dog voluntarily lies down without command or input, yawns, and tries to disengage. The FDT turns to the audience and talks. While talking the FDT leans back, averts his face and gaze to address the audience, withdraws his outstretched leg and frontally-positioned body, and the dog calms more. The dog remains down, looking around with closed mouth, soft eyes, and appears relaxed through 1:10.

At 1:10 the FDT has risen up to his feet and, leaning over, extends his hand over the top of the dog's muzzle (an overtly dominant gesture). The dog again warns the FDT with an air snap (1:12) and exposed teeth that she is still uncomfortable being closely approached by the FDT, trying to get the FDT to draw back. The dog then rapidly bites the FDT's leading, ungloved and unprotected hand-the same hand he struck her with before. The FDT kicks the dog and the dog retreats toward a corner where a photographer is standing. The dog never redirects toward the photographer. As the dog backs up the FDT pursues, frontal and challenging. The dog growls, bares her teeth, gives "hard eyes" and in general tries to get some space away from the FDT. The dog is now up against a fence and has no room to retreat.

At 1:20 the FDT stops advancing just in front of the dog, who is backed up against the fence. The dog relaxes her face, closes her mouth, gives repeated appeasement licks and averts her gaze from the FDT, who is still staring the dog down. The dog still shows tension, but does not pursue or otherwise engage the FDT. She holds her ground as there is no where else to go. At 1:25 you can see clearly that the dog is backed up against the fence.

The dog holds her position and calms, showing softened eyes, slack mouth, repeatedly averted gaze (1:43) and does not engage or show any aggressive display towards the FDT, even at close range as the FDT stands facing directly and standing over her, even as he gets a drink of water and washes off his bitten hand. The dog still (1:53) has no place to retreat.

At 1:58 we can clearly see another appeasement lick, ears down, eyes softened, mouth closed. At 2:00 a note appears on the screen "Elapsed time 3 min 6 sec" apparently illustrating the time the FDT has had the dog cornered against the fence. At 2:03 you can clearly see that the dog is holding a body position that is angled away from the FDT and curved (submissive/appeasement signals) to try and defuse the encounter. The dog is blinking, averting her gaze, ears down, with the angled body, all indicative of appeasement (submission) when the camera man says at 2:06 "She's still not submissive". The FDT states "No" as the dog again turns her head away and down. At 2:33 the dog is still standing quietly, body angled and in a crescent, gaze averted, ears down, backed up against the fence. The dog has a relaxed mouth continuing a non-confrontational posture through the on-screen marker that says "5 min 4 sec" (2:42 video time). FDT turns away and walks off, back turned to the dog. The dog makes no effort to pursue or attack-she simply stays up against the fence.

Is this dog "safe", especially around small children? Not at this juncture. This dog needs work. Progressive, positive and instructive work to desensitize the problem behavior and replace that behavior with acceptable, calm behavior. Can that be done? Most likely, given enough time and safe management of the dog until the problem is mitigated. That depends on the dog-they are living beings with their own personalities and are influenced by genetics, experience, training, environment-and even just how they feel a certain day.

Now again, I realize that things happen fast in a dog evaluation, especially when something goes awry. That is the biggest value of video-the ability to dissect the actual situation second by second. This dissection tells a lot about both the dog in question, and the evaluator. I have seen in video signals that I have missed. That is why, when I can, I get another experienced person to watch in real time to warn me of signals that I may have not seen as I looked away or was focusing on other details-like not stepping in a hole. But the overall purpose of evaluation and treatment is not to ignore clear signals and push a dog into biting you: in my world the purpose of an evaluation is to guide your treatment and diagnose problems, and triggers, without harming anyone. That includes setting a dog up for future failure because you had to prove you were the baddest on the block.

ADDENDUM TO THE ORIGINAL POST:

I think it is time to wade in here with a couple points that the emotions of this sort of issue drags up. First off, I am NOT bashing any particular trainer. The trainer involved here put this out as a publicly accessible part of an entertainment show, not an educational seminar. What I did was provide a point by point analysis of the dog's behavior. I point out signals and signs that a professional should be looking for and address, during evaluation and during training. I agree that the owners likely bear responsibility for setting this dog up to fail by whatever behavior they tolerated and didn't address much sooner. I also agree that, in its current state, this dog is not safe around small children. The trainer publicizing this clip raised questions that parties asked me, and I responded in a fair, balanced manner leaving value judgments aside.

That said there a few other issues. First, there is no such thing as a Certified "Rehabilitator". There are trainers, from the person who sticks out a shingle saying "Dog Trainer" with no education or certification to those who possess supported credentials such as through the APDT/CCPDT (which I had) and the IACP to several other oversight organizations such as the Karen Prior Trainers, the Victoria Stilwell Positive Trainers, the Animal Behavior College, and others. These folks are trainers-of varying skills. Then there are Behavior Consultants with credentials such as CBCC-KA (me and others), certification from the IAABC, and other behavior based certifying organizations. Then there are Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists and Veterinary Behaviorists, the top of the pile. Any or all of these folks, from the guy with a self-declared title of "Dog Trainer" to the Veterinary Behaviorist can function as a rehabilitator of dogs. That is what trainers and behaviorists do. I have trained a ton of dogs-and have rehabilitated a large number of problem dogs. That doesn't mean I crown myself "Dog Rehabilitator". That means I am a trainer, a behavior consultant, and evaluator (through the AKC and others but certification). Rehabilitator is a meaningless title-to be competent rehabilitation must be based on training, behavior analysis, behavior modification, and perhaps medical intervention by a Veterinary Behaviorist.

Finally, this post is not about who is right and who is wrong. There are as many techniques as there are trainers and behaviorists. I am concerned that this particular dog gave clear signals, repeatedly, that could have guided a trainer to a less invasive, less aggressive method of determining the same conclusion-and without risking the dog or the trainer by causing a potentially legally reportable bite.

How would I address this issue? That is a longer post, but it would start with not pushing the dog beyond the first warning signals, but using those to establish the parameters of the problem behavior and then proceeding, gaining the dog's confidence and slowly desensitizing the dog to the particular behavioral issue and pressing those parameters slowly back to help the dog make the right choices-and then reinforce those choices.

Jim Crosby


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## Brucie (Jun 30, 2012)

After watching Victoria Stilwell...I have come to the conclusion that almost all the techniques Cesar uses and his training style is complete garbage.

I <3 Victoria Stilwell, and shes cute 

ALSO...is it bad that I enjoyed when the dog grabbed a hold of his hand with it's teeth?:angeldevi


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Brucie, I said "good doggie" when he latched on, lol. probably not a GREAT response, but his stupid ass deserved it!!

Victoria is cool, at least she tries different things with different dogs based on what they display, not the same ol same ol no matter the mutt.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I cheered when he got bit! LoL
and good post thanks Ames!


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

Yeah he's not very good. I've always tried just to avoid talking about him or watching his show but then I saw this... 



What an idiot. I haven't seen the whole episode, but I know I'm not missing anything.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

rabbit said:


> Yeah he's not very good. I've always tried just to avoid talking about him or watching his show but then I saw this... CESAR MILIAN VS 2 PITBULL FIGHT AGRESSIVE !!!!!!!! - YouTube
> What an idiot. I haven't seen the whole episode, but I know I'm not missing anything.


I remember watching this episode from start to finish when it originally aired and I saw the fight coming before CM did lol. The crap that got me was his "proposal"...

"How about we switch dogs? You take one of my pack, lower level energy, and I get to keep her forever?" Yeah, right! Like I'm gonna hand my dog over to you so your inexperienced behind can let her get her face ripped off!

Ugh! The ignorance of his never ceases to amaze me. As for the OP... Lisa, I LOL'd when the dog grabbed him. I'm still unsure why he felt it necessary to jab her in the neck like that!? What did he expect to happen after that? Stupidity and he's being paid for it. Someone should turn him in.. it's a wonder he's allowed to continue with crap like that. We should get a camera man in there to save all the outtakes and make a video of that... bet it'll go viral on youtube and his butt will be exposed for what he really is after all... a backyard wanna be trainer!

Amy, that write up was awesome! Thank you so much for sharing that.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Staggering ineptitude...... not just ineptitude, but downright dangerous and ignorant.


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

ThaLadyPit said:


> I remember watching this episode from start to finish when it originally aired and I saw the fight coming before CM did lol


LOL Everyone saw that fight happening before CM did. All I could think while watching that was why? What in the world did he think was going to happen?? The worst part is he has people thinking that they can get a "pack" of pit bull type dogs and everything's going to be daisies.


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## Bluedrake (Jun 20, 2011)

rabbit said:


> LOL Everyone saw that fight happening before CM did. All I could think while watching that was why? What in the world did he think was going to happen?? The worst part is he has people thinking that they can get a "pack" of pit bull type dogs and everything's going to be daisies.


Could you guys let noobs like me know how you saw there was gonna be a fight and from when. I sorta picked up on it but I have not been around dogs fights so not sure all of the signs


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Bluedrake said:


> Could you guys let noobs like me know how you saw there was gonna be a fight and from when. I sorta picked up on it but I have not been around dogs fights so not sure all of the signs


It's not so much that we've been around fights... we just know and understand dog body language (also known as posturing). If you can replay it, and slow it down just a tad, and watch the dogs and how they position themselves around each other. Especially the way they're tails are stiff, yet wagging (a wagging tail doesn't always mean happy-go-lucky), the way they flatten their ears tight against their head, body is stiff all over, licking of the lips rapidly, etc.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Have not rewatched but if i remember the clip one of the stupid owners turned a JRT on its back like "i got this one" crap while multiple fights break out all around Cesar and crew. lmao idiots!!! 

So I "knew" it was gonna happen cause along with the posturing both dogs stop breathing, mouths closed and started looking out the corner of their eye, the stink eye. When my boy is about to start trouble the first thing he does it stop breathing, if he is panting mouth immediately gets closed and he gets super stalker mode. I try to catch my boy before his mouth closes. Now i see his leg muscles tense before the breathing stops now. Each dog has their own tells IMO

I also was appalled at his trade offer. Does he really think all figs are the same you can trade then for different models that "get along fine" instead of crating and rotating?


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## Rainie (Sep 21, 2012)

Wow, I just have to say, i was terrified of pit bulls at one time, but I have come to actually appreciate pit-bulls through watching CM. He is actually an advocate for the breed. He has educated owners and saved many bullie breeds through the years. He does everything to keep them from being euthanized. I think one of the reasons he was even airing this episode, The Worst Bite, was to show others that even a lab,recognized as gentle breed, can be aggressive. I totally disagreed with the way he cornered the lab and I think anyone could see the bite coming....

Still,

I can't believe such hate here for a man who cares genuinely for pit bulls. 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

There is no limit to people who love pit bulls who are doing more harm than good by not recognizing breed history, not respecting DA tendencies and generally believing the BS about ” they're just like other dogs”; ” it's all in how you raise them” etc. 

If we gave a gold star to every dog park frequenting fur mommy we'd be in a lot worse shape. You can't change the history of these dogs by simply loving it out of them.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

That was awesome seeing him get bit! I can't stand him or listening to people talk as if he actually is some training god..


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## Bluedrake (Jun 20, 2011)

ThaLadyPit said:


> It's not so much that we've been around fights... we just know and understand dog body language (also known as posturing). If you can replay it, and slow it down just a tad, and watch the dogs and how they position themselves around each other. Especially the way they're tails are stiff, yet wagging (a wagging tail doesn't always mean happy-go-lucky), the way they flatten their ears tight against their head, body is stiff all over, licking of the lips rapidly, etc.


Thanks, I picked up on the stiff bodies, and the star and body posture... lol but I thought a wagging tail was all good... learn something new everyday :roll:


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

OMG Lisa that's so much for this!!!! I just got into it with one of Ryan's friends about this ass clown. He watches that show and all of a sudden thinks he's a dog trainer and knows something. IMO you don't need to push a dog till it breaks to correct its issue. I hate how he does that. And then he kicks the dog like that's gunna help. WRF??? Really dude your the one that forced him into that situation. I just can't stand it when people try to tell me shit about my dog like I have no clue what I'm doing. Ugh.


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## Cassiemae (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks for posting...have lots of family that loves CM and I have always disagreed with his "training" but never hve seen any of this kind of stuff! Now I have some proof to back me up 


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## shewerewolf (Oct 27, 2010)

lol I agree Cesar is an idiot most of the time...but on one hand I have seen much worse training...lol this prompts me to share an experience ive seen the past two times I have went to petsmart....i only go there to buy toys and bones occasionally...my man likes to quiz me on what breeds are there lol....anyway their "training" there both times has involved all the dogs and their owners going to the back aisle of the store....then the trainer grabs the dog and the owner goes all the way across the store and calls their dog, the trainer drops leash and allows the dog to run off leash across the store....i keep waiting for a fight or something....it makes me nervous and makes me want to ask the trainers what in the hell they are thinking teaching a dog to run loose in a pet store....and no not all of them run to their owner...they run all excited everywhere....its moronic..to me a dog should never be off leash in a busy store...its teaching them horrible behavior


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## Jazzy&Veronica (Mar 18, 2011)

That first video was just sad; and the entire debacle completely unnecessary.

Poor dog.


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## Kai (Jun 10, 2012)

Growing up I loved watching animal planet and this show but even I knew he was dong things wrong at times. To be honest his methods scared me lol. I love that he loves pit bulls but like many of you said he sugar coats the truth about their DA and like this video handles situations horribly.


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## Odin`s_BlueDragon (Mar 11, 2012)

Both Cesar and victoria stillwell are crazy. I often find myself yelling at the tv. But its like a car wreck, I just can't look away! Lololol


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

No trainer is perfect and you will NEVER find 2 that cOmpletely agree with each other. Cesar and vicoria both inspire owners to step up their game and I think it does help. I just wish they were better at "training" dogs.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Bluedrake said:


> Thanks, I picked up on the stiff bodies, and the star and body posture... lol but I thought a wagging tail was all good... learn something new everyday :roll:


You're very welcome. It just is something that's learned as you get to know your dog throughout time. Eventually, you get to know how to read other dogs as well. My experience comes mostly from working with other dogs at vet hospitals, boarding/grooming facilities, doggy daycares, etc. I may not spend a lot of time during the week with my dogs due to my work schedule, but I learn my dogs just as they learn me lol. Hope that makes sense to you.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

I am not a fan of Victoria or Ceasar but I agree with Dave, that they do inspire owners to step up their game, but they themselves need to be better trainers. I think both Victoria and Ceasar do good things and both have some good points but eeeesh I really can't watch their shows...lol, unless of course for entertainment. Lol


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Lol so true just like a car wreck.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Honestly though I'm so sick of the shit talking about how my dog can't "play nice with others" I always here that shit about, ceasar says be the pack leader and bla bla bla, well ya know what, I know my dog and I choose not to let him interact with others dogs mostly for HIS safety. I know which dogs he can and absolutely can not interact with, and I'm not forcing him to be in situations that make him uneasy or on edge. Oh no I must be a bad dog owner. Ugh people are just so stupid and oblivious when it comes to these dogs and da. It has nothing to do with my training it has to do with genetics. He's no broken I don't need a damn trainer to come fix him.


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## TheIncredibleSocks (Sep 8, 2012)

I can't watch his show any more..hes so retarted,he thinks that everything has to do with "dominance" and he thinks that pit bulls are pack dogs,he denies that theres such a thing as natural DA and natural resource protecting,YOU CAN NOT FIX GENETICS!


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

kg420 said:


> Honestly though I'm so sick of the shit talking about how my dog can't "play nice with others" I always here that shit about, ceasar says be the pack leader and bla bla bla, well ya know what, I know my dog and I choose not to let him interact with others dogs mostly for HIS safety. I know which dogs he can and absolutely can not interact with, and I'm not forcing him to be in situations that make him uneasy or on edge. Oh no I must be a bad dog owner. Ugh people are just so stupid and oblivious when it comes to these dogs and da. It has nothing to do with my training it has to do with genetics. He's no broken I don't need a damn trainer to come fix him.


:hammer: You know, this is kinda off topic, but not really. A while back, I took Ices to the... wait for it.... DOG PARK here in town (which I discovered by accident while driving down the highway). There was nobody else there, so we went in and I let her play for a bit, and I had gotten some really nice photos of her. Well, a man pulled up in a van, and got out with this huge white, furry GSD/Great Pyranese looking thing, and I hurried up and got her leashed up and was getting ready to leave before he came in the gate. He says to me, "Don't you wanna let them play? Let them smell each other, at least?" I said, "I'm not trying to be rude, but no thanks." He says "Well, he's really good with other dogs, we come here all the time and he plays with other pit bulls. My wife is on her way with our boxer/pit bull mix." As he says that, another car comes pulling in. My response to him "Look, I'm a responsible owner, and I don't put my dog in situations that may cause trouble for either one of us, or anyone else involved. I'm not trying to be rude, but she's only good with one other dog, and that's her housemate. I'm not taking any chances." He says "Well, I don't want you to have to leave. I thought it might be nice for him and her to play together. I run this organization called Feed the Dogs (some program here in town that helps to feed dogs with owners who are homeless or can't afford to buy dog food)." I said "That's wonderful, and thank you for your contributions to the dog world by running such a great program, but I'm sorry, I will not allow my dog to play with your dog or anyone else's for that matter. It was nice to meet you." and I promptly left. He probably thought I was a bitch, but I don't care. I haven't taken her back there since, even though it's only like a 10 minute drive from the house. We came, we saw, we went, lol. I had scoped it out for 2 days in a row prior to taking her there, and there was nobody there, so I thought it'd be cool to take her up there to run around.

Jessie said she didn't see a problem with me having her there, and that I did right by promptly removing ourselves from the situation when other people showed up (which I already knew, but I still felt bad b/c Ices only got to play for like 15 minutes).

Anywho... people always think it's okay to let your dogs mingle with theirs when they're not heavily involved in the breed. Rob didn't understand why we had to leave, with the guy being so friendly to us, and having a dog of similar breed. The best way I could explain it was "better to be safe, than sorry." That was enough said. He's never liked APBTs, but thankfully, is willing to learn and when he doesn't understand something, he asks me about it.

I just had to share that experience, b/c I felt like it goes along with this subject and what you said about D, Krystal.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Awww Poor Ices didn't get to play long  Good for you Bev. I'd have done the exact same thing. We have a park here in town called "dog island" it's not a dog park it's a state river park with trails and signs saying all dogs on leash. They put a stupid frisbee golf area out there and no all the damn frisbee golfers are letting their dogs off leash to run while they play :hammer: I use the dock there for practice with D since boats are using a new dock. Well last time we went out there some D bag let his pit mix off right as I was walking D through the trail and i ended up having to pepper spray this dog before there was a blood bath. Dude was screaming and threatening to call the cops. I said do it!!!! Your in a state park with your dog off lead. That illegal buddy go ahead and call. Ugh. I felt kinda bad for spraying him but better pepper sprayed then dead right?


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## Brucie (Jun 30, 2012)

Odin's_BlueDragon said:


> Both Cesar and victoria stillwell are crazy. I often find myself yelling at the tv. But its like a car wreck, I just can't look away! Lololol


But I like Victoria 

She changes her methods and mindset. Like when she first began her show she bought into the dominance/alpha dog theory, now she doesn't.

Plus I haven't ever seen her use a choke collar, shock collar, beating dogs etc etc. She trains the dog in a smart way.

Plus she is sexy


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## Cassiemae (Sep 20, 2012)

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet but just saw this posted in a response to CM video

Check out this video on YouTube:






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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

This is a much better video.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

kg420 said:


> Awww Poor Ices didn't get to play long  Good for you Bev. I'd have done the exact same thing. We have a park here in town called "dog island" it's not a dog park it's a state river park with trails and signs saying all dogs on leash. They put a stupid frisbee golf area out there and no all the damn frisbee golfers are letting their dogs off leash to run while they play :hammer: I use the dock there for practice with D since boats are using a new dock. Well last time we went out there some D bag let his pit mix off right as I was walking D through the trail and i ended up having to pepper spray this dog before there was a blood bath. Dude was screaming and threatening to call the cops. I said do it!!!! Your in a state park with your dog off lead. That illegal buddy go ahead and call. Ugh. I felt kinda bad for spraying him but better pepper sprayed then dead right?


Yeah, she was okay with it though because we went to our normal park and she got to socialize and play with strange babies! She and Roller both make me so proud that any random kid can walk up to them and start petting them and all they do is hog all the attention lol. They do occasionally give out tongue baths along with showing their bellies for a rub.

Wow! Yeah, I'd have pepper sprayed too, if I carried it. I carry a knife lol... Idiot people shouldn't be allowed to own dogs, drive, or reproduce! Lol...


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Rainie said:


> Wow, I just have to say, i was terrified of pit bulls at one time, but I have come to actually appreciate pit-bulls through watching CM. He is actually an advocate for the breed. He has educated owners and saved many bullie breeds through the years. He does everything to keep them from being euthanized. I think one of the reasons he was even airing this episode, The Worst Bite, was to show others that even a lab,recognized as gentle breed, can be aggressive. I totally disagreed with the way he cornered the lab and I think anyone could see the bite coming....
> 
> Still,
> 
> ...


He does not show our breed in a good light he blindfolds people to the fact that pit bull type dogs are aggressive and should not be treated as a normal dog. DA is very much a part of the breed and asshats like CM are telling the public that these dogs are safe in a pack.



kg420 said:


> OMG Lisa that's so much for this!!!! I just got into it with one of Ryan's friends about this ass clown. He watches that show and all of a sudden thinks he's a dog trainer and knows something. IMO you don't need to push a dog till it breaks to correct its issue. I hate how he does that. And then he kicks the dog like that's gunna help. WRF??? Really dude your the one that forced him into that situation. I just can't stand it when people try to tell me shit about my dog like I have no clue what I'm doing. Ugh.


I think sometimes you need to push a dog but have someone of stopping the behaviour. A simple leash would have given him a way to correct the dog quickly and avoid the standoff. The standoff occurred because he had not choice the dog would have ate him if he tried to touch it. BUt all in all I agree with you



redog said:


> No trainer is perfect and you will NEVER find 2 that cOmpletely agree with each other. Cesar and vicoria both inspire owners to step up their game and I think it does help. I just wish they were better at "training" dogs.


Agreed that no 2 trainers will agree but come on..... he is giving people false hope about making pit bull dogs get along and putting dogs in a stand of like that. Not cool....


Cassiemae said:


> Not sure if anyone has posted this yet but just saw this posted in a response to CM video
> 
> Check out this video on YouTube:
> 
> ...


Good video and a better alternative than punching a dog in the neck!


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

> I think sometimes you need to push a dog but have someone of stopping the behaviour. A simple leash would have given him a way to correct the dog quickly and avoid the standoff. The standoff occurred because he had not choice the dog would have ate him if he tried to touch it


He had far more choice than the dog did. He pushed that dog way over threshold and cornered it into the response he got. He ignored the dogs attempts at deflection and appeasement. The 'standoff' was ridiculous and should never have occurred. A leash would have kept the dog from getting at him, yes, but wouldn't have changed anything else that was wrong with the approach. Cornering and being confrontational with scared or aggressive dogs is a great way to get bit, though dogs, being the malleable creatures they are, will often let us get away with it.
Agree with everything else you posted. He has done more harm then good, IMO. If you were once 'scared' of the breed, but now own one because cesar said, well, that's the wrong reason, IMO. They are, generally, NOT great pack dogs, and being a great pack dog isn't what makes a dog a GOOD dog. My best dog does not get along with others. She isn't 'bad', she isn't 'broken', she simply does not tolerate stupid crap from other dogs..... and you know what? I don't MAKE her


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I totally feel you Lisa. You have to see the bad behavior to correct it but I just think he takes thing too far sometimes. And I fully agree, a leash and common sence could have made for a much better outcome. I was laughing too when he said oh I didn't see that coming lol we all saw that coming.


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## Rainie (Sep 21, 2012)

So in the past I've; 1) been terrified of bully breeds 2) been sad for the mistreatment of the breed 3) gained respect for the breed (from watching CM and other shows that are against full bans on the breed) and 4) been educated on their predisposed behaviors (on this forum and by gathering additional data on my own).

People on the forum should realize, not everyone is an expert on the breed and that explaining and providing additional information is more enlightening than calling people names and insulting their intelligence. 

This forum's members, in particular, have the opportunity to educate, misinformed and/or uninformed, bully breed owners....and the general public as well. Take advantage of the opportunity people! 

I have really appreciated the individuals on this thread who actually think about what they are posting. For some of you other posters, please try not to be so human aggressive!!

Renee


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## Brucie (Jun 30, 2012)

Rainie said:


> So in the past I've; 1) been terrified of bully breeds 2) been sad for the mistreatment of the breed 3) gained respect for the breed (from watching CM and other shows that are against full bans on the breed) and 4) been educated on their predisposed behaviors (on this forum and by gathering additional data on my own).
> 
> People on the forum should realize, not everyone is an expert on the breed and that explaining and providing additional information is more enlightening than calling people names and insulting their intelligence.
> 
> ...


Lol you are so dull. You have no idea how much this forum has promoted and educated about the breed. You are too ignorant to realize that this is about the training methods a highly publicized figure promotes, and those methods being DANGEROUS to use with dogs...especially the bully breed.

I hope you educate yourself on the matter of TRAINING and how a IMPROPERLY trained dog can in fact become a danger to others.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Kingsgurl said:


> He had far more choice than the dog did. He pushed that dog way over threshold and cornered it into the response he got. He ignored the dogs attempts at deflection and appeasement. The 'standoff' was ridiculous and should never have occurred. A leash would have kept the dog from getting at him, yes, but wouldn't have changed anything else that was wrong with the approach. Cornering and being confrontational with scared or aggressive dogs is a great way to get bit, though dogs, being the malleable creatures they are, will often let us get away with it.
> Agree with everything else you posted. He has done more harm then good, IMO. If you were once 'scared' of the breed, but now own one because cesar said, well, that's the wrong reason, IMO. They are, generally, NOT great pack dogs, and being a great pack dog isn't what makes a dog a GOOD dog. My best dog does not get along with others. She isn't 'bad', she isn't 'broken', she simply does not tolerate stupid crap from other dogs..... and you know what? I don't MAKE her


OF course not everyone is going to work with dogs the same but I disagree about having the dog on leash. Now take CM out of the equation we all know he's an idiot. I have dealt with food aggressive dogs many time and pushing a confrontation IMO is ok as long as you know how to stop it quickly and not put a dog on a position like CM did. My point being on leash first you won't get bit like he did and second you have control of the dog to make an effective correction and I would prefer a dog on a martingale leash or kennel lead for something like this. I also think the behaviour they got in the video above with treats is another alternative but IMO doesn't get at the root of the issues which is aggression and confrontation. It can very well happen again in a different situation where it's a bone on the couch not a food bowl. Different set up different rules in the dogs mind. They only associated the bowl with treats not other situations. Lots of ideas of how to deal with something and I think we all agree CM way is just garbage.



Rainie said:


> So in the past I've; 1) been terrified of bully breeds 2) been sad for the mistreatment of the breed 3) gained respect for the breed (from watching CM and other shows that are against full bans on the breed) and 4) been educated on their predisposed behaviors (on this forum and by gathering additional data on my own).
> 
> People on the forum should realize, not everyone is an expert on the breed and that explaining and providing additional information is more enlightening than calling people names and insulting their intelligence.
> 
> ...


A CM groupie! lol
no surprise about that



Brucie said:


> Lol you are so dull. You have no idea how much this forum has promoted and educated about the breed. You are too ignorant to realize that this is about the training methods a highly publicized figure promotes, and those methods being DANGEROUS to use with dogs...especially the bully breed.
> 
> I hope you educate yourself on the matter of TRAINING and how a IMPROPERLY trained dog can in fact become a danger to others.


Of course we educate here but when we see some punch (a non pit too BTW) a dog in the head, there is something wrong with that. And someone who defends that? something wrong with them! lol


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Great post Lisa!!! I agree about public figures with this breed as well. One of my main problems with CM is that he tries to tell people that APBTs are just dogs like any other breed and that DA is curable. IMO this is a wrong breed image. How many people bring multiple pit type dogs into their home thinking if they baby them and raise them right they will never have problems. How often does it actually work out? Not much. First sign of maturity and DA people are quick to give them away, take them to the pound, or have them PTS. If more people were truly educated about the breed and what to expect with them we wouldn't have so many dying daily in shelters, or overpopulating rescues waiting for homes.


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## Papi_ (Aug 30, 2011)

Goldie just love imported taco's !


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

kg420 said:


> Great post Lisa!!! I agree about public figures with this breed as well. One of my main problems with CM is that he tries to tell people that APBTs are just dogs like any other breed and that DA is curable. IMO this is a wrong breed image. How many people bring multiple pit type dogs into their home thinking if they baby them and raise them right they will never have problems. How often does it actually work out? Not much. First sign of maturity and DA people are quick to give them away, take them to the pound, or have them PTS. If more people were truly educated about the breed and what to expect with them we wouldn't have so many dying daily in shelters, or overpopulating rescues waiting for homes.


:goodpost: Amen! lol


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

"Cesars methods" are fairly old, the problem is he doesn't execute them properly or at least the show doesn't accurately portray them as how they should be.. Either way doesn't matter, the show isn't a benchmark nor is it something to put much stock into. Someone with little experience in training can pin point with ease mistakes, which is pathetic. Though what do you expect?

Any mass produced training show or mass produced "trainers" such as "Pet Smart trainers" are anything but sophisticated in the expertise, often is a direct result of profit hunger and doesn't take into account the individual dog as not all dogs are equal in response to a single training method.


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## Rainie (Sep 21, 2012)

I never said I advocated his methods, but that he made me see the apbt in a different light. I see now, the way he thinks all dogs are the same is incorrect. I am a firm believer in positive reinforcement. I did say I didn't like the way he handled the food aggression case. I don't think punishment works for any type of dog. 

I like the way he explains human energy and how it can be transferred down the leash to dogs. I have heard other trainers mention this as well. I learned to be calm now, instead of nervous and fearful, around other dogs and it really helps. I was attacked by a bull dog at the age of 5 and had night terrors until 13. It's taken me another 10 years to finally be able to be around dogs. I'm still pretty young and have a lot to learn. 

I probably shouldn't have posted all that I did on this forum and I'm sorry I was so dull. I think I should read all I can here and keep my thoughts to myself. 

I am definitely not a CM groupie, just like the way he talks about energy as I stated above. 




Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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