# difference in Amstaff And APBT



## bigbooss OSG

I have heard that there is a difference in American Staffordshire Terriers and American Pit Bull Terriers and that they are more cousins than the same type of breed. Ive also heard that they are the same breed and their is no difference. But if the AKC will not accept pits but amstaffs are allowed then how are they the same. I was also told that if a dog fighter( which i dont condone at all and hope that all people who fight dogs pits or any type of dog get put down and rot in prison) will not fight a dog if it has any Amstaff blood in it. I also read in a form about blue bloodlines that blues would have a Amstaff bloodline and would not be considered a Pitbull. I have a two blues and they fit the chartaritcs of an Amstaff but I just wanna know if there really is a difference or not. thanks


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## rodrigo

from what i have read, and i have read a ton....both derive from the same dog....it is the same dog, ....but one remained a work dog and one remained a show dog.....the apbt was the work dog and its conformation stayed true to what works best not what might look coolest.

the am staff was a show dog...and what do we like most about our breed...as far as looks and forgetting functionality??? ....big blocky heads, wide chests etc etc ..... when u see the am staff conformation the head varies from the apbt one...the breeders simply kept breeding show dogs with certain characteristics having nothing to do with performance. .....

and thats what u have the same breed fork in two directions because of breeding for a specific purpose....work vs show


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## Kingsgurl

The original AKC Am Staff's were APBT, though the AKC refused to recognize them under that name and registered them as 'Staffordshire Terriers' instead (the American was actually added to the name later to avoid confusion with the Staffordshire Bull Terrier) Many of those first dogs were dual registered and the standard was written based on the working pit bull.
The AKC Am Staff gene pool is MUCH smaller than the APBT one, and truth be told could use an opening of the stud book to allow fresh blood back in.
Both sides are pretty adamant about them being different dogs, though no other blood was ever introduced.
Blue dogs occurred in APBT before Am Staff's came about (again, no other blood was introduced) If memory serves me right (and I'm old, so it may not) the color was believed to be introduced to the APBT from the now extinct Blue Paul Terrier. Blue's were generally looked down upon as not as game and the color was not sought after.
Anytime breeders breed to exaggerate traits you will see what you speak of as far as the loss of functionality. Form should follow function in the bred(s), but it doesn't when people want to interpret the original written standard the way they currently are. The UKC show dogs are also overdone, for the most part, especially with the recent influx of people breeding for extreme bullies. Granted, the UKC did actually revise the standard to more clearly outline the original ideal (which was a FUNCTIONAL dog) but that's too little too late, IMO Personally, I would yank papers on most UKC dogs right now if I was running that registry.
The ADBA errs on the Terrier side of the equation


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## Blue_Nose_Bella

Yes there is a huge difference between APBT and AST. There looks alone are different when you compare them side by side. Though, to the public eye and media they all look the same and are lumped into one generic term "pit bull" When there is a bite or attack on a human. Blue isn't really considered an APBT color perse' but some will argue that and there is a mod on here who has true working blue APBT. She has gorgeous dogs true to the APBT form and not the AST. They can all correct me if I'm wrong.....I am still learning as well  I have a blue bitch that has alot of staff/ruffian blood in her who has been referred to as a pitterstaff. Blue is also a popular color in the American bullies which is another seperate breed. Put a bully beside a true APBT and you will see an even bigger difference.


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## Firehazard

Show dogs... no really any difference. AST is a show bred APBT.

MOST APBT today are showdogs and not WORKING DOGS. Thus most APBTs today coming from NON working stock and homes are really no different than ASTs. 

Colby dogs are registered as APBTs, ASTs, and some colby trace in SBTs .. So if Colby bloodline dogs can be registered in or as all 3. The difference is simple.

Show/Function

ADBA shows contain more working type dogs than UKC or AKC but they're still those in the ADBA breeding for looks alone.


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## 1038dav

So basically a bully is a AST or that is a different bloodline?


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## angelbaby

An american bully is Am staff and UKC style APBT mixed together supposedly only those, but there is speculation and some obvious cases where Eb's or corsos, mastiffs in some cases were mixed in to get size for pockets and XL's but depending on who you ask about that you will get varied responses lol.


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## ames

I had a hard time understanding this as well when I first started learning about what exactly a pit bull is. All dogs come from somewhere and all breeds do as well.

There is a difference in all the breeds you mentioned. AST may have started out as show APBT but they are their own breed through and through. I will try and find the comparison I have seen people post on where it is extremely obvious there are many different breeds that all get lumped in as a pit bull.


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## bigbooss OSG

I was also told that an American Bully was the ABPT and the AST mixed together as well. another reason i thought they were different breeds. If you mix two breeds to make another breed then wouldnt that make the Amstaff a whole different breed from the APBT?


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## bigbooss OSG

I Like going to this website for well what it says lol "www.dogbreedinfo.com" and i found this in destription section of the page. here is the actual link if you want to read to whole page about the breed : American Staffordshire Terrier Information and Pictures

The American Staffordshire Terrier (Am Staff) is extremely strong for its size. Agile, very muscular and stocky with a broad, powerful head. The muzzle is medium in length, rounded on upper side to fall away abruptly below the eyes. The eyes are dark and round, low down in the skull and set far apart. Pink eyelids are considered a fault according to the AKC standard. The jaw is very strong. The lips are to be close and even, no looseness or dewlap. The ears are set high on the head and can be cropped or uncropped. Uncropped is preferred and should be short and held rose or half prick. The teeth should form a scissors bite. Its coat is made up of thick, stiff, glossy hair. All colors, solid, parti, or patched are permissible, but according to AKC standard it is not encouraged for dogs to be more than 80% white. The un-docked tail is short compared to the dogs size and tapers to a point. Classed by AKC as "American Staffordshire Terrier" and by UKC as "American Pit Bull Terrier." *The American Staffordshire Terrier, are generally of larger bone structure, head size and weight then their cousins the American Pit Bull Terrier*.


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## KMdogs

bigbooss OSG said:


> I Like going to this website for well what it says lol "www.dogbreedinfo.com" and i found this in destription section of the page. here is the actual link if you want to read to whole page about the breed : American Staffordshire Terrier Information and Pictures
> 
> The American Staffordshire Terrier (Am Staff) is extremely strong for its size. Agile, very muscular and stocky with a broad, powerful head. The muzzle is medium in length, rounded on upper side to fall away abruptly below the eyes. The eyes are dark and round, low down in the skull and set far apart. Pink eyelids are considered a fault according to the AKC standard. The jaw is very strong. The lips are to be close and even, no looseness or dewlap. The ears are set high on the head and can be cropped or uncropped. Uncropped is preferred and should be short and held rose or half prick. The teeth should form a scissors bite. Its coat is made up of thick, stiff, glossy hair. All colors, solid, parti, or patched are permissible, but according to AKC standard it is not encouraged for dogs to be more than 80% white. The un-docked tail is short compared to the dogs size and tapers to a point. Classed by AKC as "American Staffordshire Terrier" and by UKC as "American Pit Bull Terrier." *The American Staffordshire Terrier, are generally of larger bone structure, head size and weight then their cousins the American Pit Bull Terrier*.


Don't put much stock into that website, a great deal of information not only about the Amstaff but for many breeds are wrong.. If you want to learn about any given breed go straight to the source, learn from those that have stayed true to the hounds and have had their hands on these dogs for years..

Thats just like going to dogbite.org or whatever it is to know how "dangerous" a breed is.. :flush:


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## pitbullmamanatl

Firehazard said:


> Show dogs... no really any difference. AST is a show bred APBT.
> 
> MOST APBT today are showdogs and not WORKING DOGS. Thus most APBTs today coming from NON working stock and homes are really no different than ASTs.
> 
> Colby dogs are registered as APBTs, ASTs, and some colby trace in SBTs .. So if Colby bloodline dogs can be registered in or as all 3. The difference is simple.
> 
> Show/Function
> 
> ADBA shows contain more working type dogs than UKC or AKC but they're still those in the ADBA breeding for looks alone.


Wooooord homeslice!



KMdogs said:


> Don't put much stock into that website, a great deal of information not only about the Amstaff but for many breeds are wrong.. If you want to learn about any given breed go straight to the source, learn from those that have stayed true to the hounds and have had their hands on these dogs for years..
> 
> Thats just like going to dogbite.org or whatever it is to know how "dangerous" a breed is.. :flush:


Yeah! What he said!  :goodpost::goodpost:


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## pitbullmamanatl

bigbooss OSG said:


> I was also told that an American Bully was the ABPT and the AST mixed together as well. another reason i thought they were different breeds. If you mix two breeds to make another breed then wouldnt that make the Amstaff a whole different breed from the APBT?


Dave Wilson crossed Staff and APBT to create the American Bully (although not his intention in the beginning); however, once other people got their hands on some of his dogs nobody really knows what was mixed in other than that. There has been bulldog in them since the beginning, but nobody knows how much except for the people who did it. It is what it is and doesn't make me love the American Bully any less, but that is why the breed is so inconsistent-- nobody knows what they are actually breeding. Again, I believe DW when he states he did not mix anything else in, but he couldn't control the people who had his dogs. Easier said than done.


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## bigbooss OSG

ohh no of course i was just showing one of the many things i found saying that they were seperate breeds...i know there alot of bogus websites out there...i've found some saying the APBT, Rotti, and the Boxer are the top three most dangerous in the world..real bogus info..ive seen one wedsite advertising that the pitbull was such a hard dog to train because of its aggressive tempermint that this one guy on there could change the dog into the perfect family pet. Hard to belive how some people can buy into that stuff when wikapidea tells you the APBT is a fun-loving family pet.

this was suppose to go under were KM Dogs replied


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## Old_Blood

Depends on ones opinion. Some will say same. Others will say different. They are genetically the same breed but are very different. It's like the difference between a Border Collie and an AKC "Barbie" Collie. People don't generally mix the lines and consider them doffetent. 

Blue will have AST somewhere in the pedigree unless its a rare exception.

Dogmen are not likely to have dogs with AST but sometimes it happens. There are also enough notable winners of past with AST. AST is likely to have loss gameness but some dogs with staff may be game. 

AST is typically milder dog. Less drive, da.


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## 9361

There is much difference in looks today between and ADBA APBT and a AKC Amstaff. The UKC APBT are looking more and more like the AKC Amstaff but a UKC APBT can be conditioned to look just like an ADBA APBT.... haha Confused yet?


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## KMdogs

A show dog is a show dog.. A working hound is a working hound.. The APBT is a world class worker the AST is in modern times a show hound.. Dog breeds are defined by purpose, function, ability, structure and appearance.. For some breeds, such as the APBT the true standard of which one is to be called such is function, ability purpose.. While the APBT and AST was once one of the same that time is now long gone. Established in two very ends of the spectrum, each are far different..

In order to truly understand youd have to handle both.. That will speak for all you need to know.

Some say a dog is defined by bloodlines.. Some say they are defined by function.. It is all in who you ask.. For me, a show APBT is just an AST as if you take APBT "blood" and breed away from working ability and toward the show ring you end up with an AST in no time.

Put simply, if a GSD cannot protect but wins at show rings.. Is that GSD bred to true standard? If a GSD cannot be worked to form, would you consider this dog a fine example of what the breeds foundation is? How about the APBT? If an APBT cannot perform as a raw athlete (legally or not.. Remember these hounds are all over the world) but can place at shows.. Is this a fine example? What about a Fila? Presa? 

Or lets turn the tables, if an AST cannot be shown due to server faults.. What good is that dog in terms of breed standard? Might make an excellent family pet yes.. But thats not what we are speaking of.


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## Kingsgurl

I think this speaks to the biggest challenge facing the breed today. Like it or not, the original function of the APBT is ILLEGAL and most people find it morally reprehensible (myself included) How does one keep the breed true, while not stooping to animal cruelty (no matter how nicely dressed up as preserving a breed) to do so? The pitting of dogs in the current day and age does nothing to 'preserve' it, as there is no place for it and it does nothing but subject the breed to seizure, death (either in the pit or outside it) and public scorn/fear. If we do not find legal venues to showcase and prove dogs, we are the ones signing their death warrant as a breed. 
You can dislike that fact, you can give me negative feedback, it doesn't change it. We are the current stewards of this awesome breed, developed by the old timers, forged on the blood of all the dogs past, how do WE keep it?


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## MaxSBT

Kingsgurl said:


> I think this speaks to the biggest challenge facing the breed today. Like it or not, the original function of the APBT is ILLEGAL and most people find it morally reprehensible (myself included) How does one keep the breed true, while not stooping to animal cruelty (no matter how nicely dressed up as preserving a breed) to do so? The pitting of dogs in the current day and age does nothing to 'preserve' it, as there is no place for it and it does nothing but subject the breed to seizure, death (either in the pit or outside it) and public scorn/fear. If we do not find legal venues to showcase and prove dogs, we are the ones signing their death warrant as a breed.
> You can dislike that fact, you can give me negative feedback, it doesn't change it. We are the current stewards of this awesome breed, developed by the old timers, forged on the blood of all the dogs past, how do WE keep it?


Very well said :thumbsup:


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## KMdogs

Kingsgurl said:


> I think this speaks to the biggest challenge facing the breed today. Like it or not, the original function of the APBT is ILLEGAL and most people find it morally reprehensible (myself included) How does one keep the breed true, while not stooping to animal cruelty (no matter how nicely dressed up as preserving a breed) to do so? The pitting of dogs in the current day and age does nothing to 'preserve' it, as there is no place for it and it does nothing but subject the breed to seizure, death (either in the pit or outside it) and public scorn/fear. If we do not find legal venues to showcase and prove dogs, we are the ones signing their death warrant as a breed.
> You can dislike that fact, you can give me negative feedback, it doesn't change it. We are the current stewards of this awesome breed, developed by the old timers, forged on the blood of all the dogs past, how do WE keep it?


Those that keep true to how the [] used to be.. Is done with the hound first and foremost priority.. There are still those out there in the world with ethics.. Meaning not what you hear in the news..

Legally, you cannot test gameness as there is only one "true" test and that is illegal.. However there are those that still do.. Legally, you want a true test of character, ability, function.. Drive, etc.. The use of bulldogs as catch dogs can deliver this as well as other venues such as Shutzhund.. The only sport IMO that can do this.. However if we look at history in order to be called an APBT one must have proven themselves and this is where the question of what lines are drawn come in.

Personally i'd rather see people at least work their hounds in any form they can that requires both mental and physical stability.. Keep the function as closely accurate as possible (think "game bred"..tightly bred yards) and i'll leave it at that..

I personally wouldn't involve my hounds in anything illegal however i know what i'm feeding..

Experience is another.. For instance someone who has been around (or had) game dogs for years has a better understanding of what someone or even themselves are feeding without testing the "ole ways".. However i'm a firm believer you don't know what you have unless you work them.. Meaning, if we are talking protection i wouldn't call someones GSD a protection hound just because of the genetic make up.. I would call them a protection hound after proving worthy of such a honorable "title"..

I can say that i DO NOT consider show bred "APBT"s one of the same.. They are AST's plain and simple.. I also do NOT consider any unknown to be remotely on the same page.. An APBT is a working hound and should be bred and handled as such.. Work first pet second..

Now in days there are also breeders pairing proven show "APBTs" with some performance.. Whether it is Schutzhund or what have you.. Personally i believe if we are speaking of show bred paired to working, you might as well be breeding AST x APBT.. I have no problem with people showing their hounds no matter breed however the purpose should still be instilled and not bred towards something not in the foundation of which they are here for.

There are legal ventures that truly allow one to work their APBT's.. However breeding needs to be kept true and not reformed.. At least, not so much as to change what we already have..


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## pitbullmamanatl

Kingsgurl said:


> I think this speaks to the biggest challenge facing the breed today. Like it or not, the original function of the APBT is ILLEGAL and most people find it morally reprehensible (myself included) How does one keep the breed true, while not stooping to animal cruelty (no matter how nicely dressed up as preserving a breed) to do so? The pitting of dogs in the current day and age does nothing to 'preserve' it, as there is no place for it and it does nothing but subject the breed to seizure, death (either in the pit or outside it) and public scorn/fear. If we do not find legal venues to showcase and prove dogs, we are the ones signing their death warrant as a breed.
> You can dislike that fact, you can give me negative feedback, it doesn't change it. We are the current stewards of this awesome breed, developed by the old timers, forged on the blood of all the dogs past, how do WE keep it?


It isn't illegal in other countries and the breed is still being preserved without breaking any laws over there.


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## KMdogs

pitbullmamanatl said:


> It isn't illegal in other countries and the breed is still being preserved without breaking any laws over there.


:goodpost: Exactly, there are also some dogmen here still preserving regardless of laws.. Either way if one does not want to risk it all there are legal activities that can be done to give you a pretty good idea of what you are feeding.. You couldn't claim you feed a game dog without actually testing which is illegal.. However tightly bred and keep in tact the foundation you have ways of working these hounds..

Granted, there are other ways as well if you wanted to ship a hound to another country and back as well.. However most "typical" bulldog owners wouldn't do that for various reasons.


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## geary

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Yes there is a huge difference between APBT and AST. There looks alone are different when you compare them side by side. Though, to the public eye and media they all look the same and are lumped into one generic term "pit bull" When there is a bite or attack on a human. Blue isn't really considered an APBT color perse' but some will argue that and there is a mod on here who has true working blue APBT. She has gorgeous dogs true to the APBT form and not the AST. They can all correct me if I'm wrong.....I am still learning as well  I have a blue bitch that has alot of staff/ruffian blood in her who has been referred to as a pitterstaff. Blue is also a popular color in the American bullies which is another seperate breed. Put a bully beside a true APBT and you will see an even bigger difference.


dont feel bad i have a pitterstaff as well and proud of him. i bred him that way knowingly because i feel that the adba stream line 35-55 lbs is based on the early 1900's to the out law of fighting and the breed is way older than that and its frist jobs being bull baiting and catch dog. so i crossed the two and got an 80 lbs dog thats made like a 45 lbs dog


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## Firehazard

Function.. work... utility... purpose... that defines breeds.. Working dogs are just that and bred for the work. Show dogs are more often than not these days "show bred"..

Its a catch 22 ... because DNA testing wise... SBT, AST, BT, AB, Bostons, APBT> all come up the same genetic coding.. 
Mars Veterinary Wisdom Panel DNA Testing Pit Bulls APBT


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## doughboi

ames said:


> I had a hard time understanding this as well when I first started learning about what exactly a pit bull is. All dogs come from somewhere and all breeds do as well.
> 
> There is a difference in all the breeds you mentioned. AST may have started out as show APBT but they are their own breed through and through. I will try and find the comparison I have seen people post on where it is extremely obvious there are many different breeds that all get lumped in as a pit bull.


:goodpost:


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## Firehazard

ON the DNA test... they are all the same..


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## KMdogs

Firehazard said:


> ON the DNA test... they are all the same..


Yet according to many, registered paper work and knowing where your dog came from is enough to know what you have..

HA, yeah it is a good start. But function is the final factor as a pedigreed "Pit Bull" and a pedigreed AST, well you trace them back to the same foundation and in many cases, not so long ago, paths cross over frequently. You don't have to go to the 1800s for them to intertwine.

:thumbsup:


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## Bosscobb

Hey guys, just joined the community, new owners of a beautiful creature name 'Bosscobb' happen upon this thread, and enjoyed the read, we are beginners that's seeking to learn all we can

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## seamus44

KMdogs said:


> Yet according to many, registered paper work and knowing where your dog came from is enough to know what you have..
> 
> HA, yeah it is a good start. But function is the final factor as a pedigreed "Pit Bull" and a pedigreed AST, well you trace them back to the same foundation and in many cases, not so long ago, paths cross over frequently. You don't have to go to the 1800s for them to intertwine.
> 
> :thumbsup:


I think you hit the nail on the head, function is the be all and end all when people say they have the same DNA etc. The DNA is the same but different parts of that DNA is more dominantly used by AST and APBT and the longer the different parts are utilized differently the more differences will become apparent between them.


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