# Sticky  ABKC Class Info



## Elvisfink

LoudMouf said:


> Head:
> -Too narrow muzzle
> -Lacking Significant Cheek
> 
> Body:
> -Long Neck lacking Tapering
> -Turned Out Fronts
> -Excessive Tuck
> -Roach Back (could possible be the photo)
> -Long Tail
> -Turned in Hocks (might be the photos)
> 
> Overall Impression: Lacking a bit of substance. Small standard, I would probably attempt to add some weight and continue to condition the dog and then take some new photos for re-evaluation.


*Ok so what are you judging this dog to? 
Ambully?
Classic?
Pocket Pit?
Extreme BUlly?
Shorty Bull?
Xl Bully?
Biggest Chest?
Extreme Bully?
Those are listed classes at upcomeing AmBully event posted here on GP.com. 
What the hell is your standard? You've regurgitated most of the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier standard in your response to the dog posted, but come on. Really WHAT IS THE STANDARD FOR A BULLY? Is it like a Poodle where there are multiple classes? Standard, Medium, Miniature and toy? I'm not trying to be a **** I'm just uneducated to the standard or multiple standards of a Bully. Educate me! By the way I think MachO's dog rocks for a Bully! Show's what the hell I know about a Bully!
*


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## pitbullmamanatl

Elvisfink said:


> *Ok so what are you judging this dog to?
> Ambully?
> Classic?
> Pocket Pit?
> Extreme BUlly?
> Shorty Bull?
> Xl Bully?
> Biggest Chest?
> Extreme Bully?
> Those are listed classes at upcomeing AmBully event posted here on GP.com.
> What the hell is your standard? You've regurgitated most of the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier standard in your response to the dog posted, but come on. Really WHAT IS THE STANDARD FOR A BULLY? Is it like a Poodle where there are multiple classes? Standard, Medium, Miniature and toy? I'm not trying to be a **** I'm just uneducated to the standard or multiple standards of a Bully. Educate me! By the way I think MachO's dog rocks for a Bully! Show's what the hell I know about a Bully!
> *


Doug, each class adheres to the Standard Class written standard with some amendments. 
They are broken down as follows and the classes are determined by height:


*Standard Class*- Click the link to read the standard as it is too long to post in this thread. That is the standard every class follows.












*Pocket*- This is an amendment to the basic standard which a Pocket Bully is determined by its adult height. Males under 17″ at the withers. Females under 16″ at the withers.












*XL*- Males over 20″ at the withers.Females over 19″ at the withers.












*Extreme*- Extreme Bully is determined by its body structure and build.Both sex dogs with heavier body frames and more overall body mass.












*Classic*- Classic dog is determined by its body structure and build. Both sex dogs with lighter body frames and less overall body mass.


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## Elvisfink

Thanks’ Lauren. This is my first post in Bullies 101 as you know I'm an ADBA kind of guy. It’s also the first time someone has explained to me that there are multiple standards to a Bully. Your post brings me back to one of my original questions. What standard is LoudMouf holding MachO’s dog to? Most of what he stated was directly from the AKC AmStaff standard. Did the ABKC just copy the AKC standard and change a few words or did they write their own standard for they own unique breed or breeds? Within these multiple standards is there a written standard to each class that breeders are breeding to or is it just a free for all. Basically is there a governing standard that people are being judged by in each of the listed classes? I know when I go to an ADBA event there are dog being shown form 30Lbs up to 60lbs, but they are all being judge or held to ONE standard. How does someone getting into Bullies know what class their dog falls into? As I stated before Poodles have multiple classes, just like Schnauzers but when someone is looking to buy a Poodle or a Schnauzer in a particular class it's well defined by the AKC what they are getting and showing. How does someone buying a Bully know what class they are buy or going to show into? It just seems to me that it's out of control and that the dogs appearances are being dictated by the breeder and not by a governing body.


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## Sadie

Also for the classic bully the standard is very vague lighter body frame compared to what ? Or is there more to this standard written elsewhere? 



Classic
This is an amendment to the basic standard which a*Classic*dog is determined by its body structure and build. Both sex dogs with lighter body frames and less overall body mass.


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## pitbullmamanatl

Elvisfink said:


> Thanks' Lauren. This is my first post in Bullies 101 as you know I'm an ADBA kind of guy. It's also the first time someone has explained to me that there are multiple standards to a Bully. Your post brings me back to one of my original questions. What standard is LoudMouf holding MachO's dog to? Most of what he stated was directly from the AKC AmStaff standard. Did the ABKC just copy the AKC standard and change a few words or did they write their own standard for they own unique breed or breeds? Within these multiple standards is there a written standard to each class that breeders are breeding to or is it just a free for all. Basically is there a governing standard that people are being judged by in each of the listed classes? I know when I go to an ADBA event there are dog being shown form 30Lbs up to 60lbs, but they are all being judge or held to ONE standard. How does someone getting into Bullies know what class their dog falls into? As I stated before Poodles have multiple classes, just like Schnauzers but when someone is looking to buy a Poodle or a Schnauzer in a particular class it's well defined what they are getting and showing. How does someone buying a Bully know what class they are buy or going to show into?


I will answer these questions as to the best of my ability, but hopefully Devin or Manny will be able to clarify a few things.

All dogs are judged according to the written standard and their age is taken into consideration and to the written standard to that variety. For example, pocket class must meet the written standard and must meet the height requirement. As for the Classic class they are judged according to the standard bully and along the same lines as the old school UKC.


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## Sadie

So is there a class or such a thing as a xxl bully? I don't see a standard for that class it seems only the standard class is well defined.


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## Elvisfink

Sadie said:


> Also for the classic bully the standard is very vague lighter body frame compared to what ? Or is there more to this standard written elsewhere?
> 
> The photos that Lauren posted (Thank you very much) it appears that the Classic is just an overload AST by another color. The other categories appear to mixed breeds. WAIT!!! DON'T GET PISSED!!! They are what they are and if you truly are breeding to a set standard in each individual class they will eventually become uniformed in appeared. That is if the breeders are breeding to a written standard that all other breeder of that specific breed are breeding to. Again what are Bully breeders breeding to? Are they just tying two dogs together because they look cool and what they get is what they define as individual classes such ad Classic, XL, Shorty, Extreme or whatever? In other words are the breeding defining the classes or is the standard defining the classes? Thanks for the answers so far Lauren!


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## Sadie

Doug that's what I thought too about the classics I dunno I'm still confused because I see dogs like Holly's who are classic bullies like stack ukc style and then I see a dog like opha Mae hope I said it right that looks like an am staff with more bulk to it but is by the Abkc classic standard also considered a classic bully .....So I don't know I see so many variations it's so hard to say what's what. And the standard for most of the classes are so vague with the exception of the standard class. I am like you trying to understand the standard for each type or variation if you will and what these guys are breeding to standard wise. I guess maybe the xxl's might fall under extreme I dunno.


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## pitbullmamanatl

There is no XXL class. Only the classes that I listed above. People often confuse extreme with XXL I guess, but there is no XXL class.


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## Sadie

So breeders who advertise the xxl bullies are not really breeding to a standard class because there is none for the xxl? Is that really a type of bully the xxl that you see advertised or is it a byb invented thing to make something sound special? I actually thought they existed because I see them sold online as xxl bullies.


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## pitbullmamanatl

Sadie said:


> So breeders who advertise the xxl bullies are not really breeding to a standard class because there is none for the xxl? Is that really a type of bully the xxl that you see advertised or is it a byb invented thing to make something sound special? I actually thought they existed because I see them sold online as xxl bullies.


If you see advertisements for XXL Bullies you can bet they are some BYB who have no idea what the ABKC standard is and sure as heck are not breeding to it. Ethical Bully Breeders know what class of dogs they have and believe in breeding to the standard as well as striving to produce clean, correct, conform bullies. Most of what you see on the Internet is probably garbage with no intent to get in the show ring. Google is not going to show you conformational dogs- you must attend a show and see for yourself what is out there.


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## Sadie

Ok thanks for clearing that up I actually thought xxl bullies existed based on what I have seen advertised.


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## Elvisfink

pitbullmamanatl said:


> There is no XXL class. Only the classes that I listed above. People often confuse extreme with XXL I guess, but there is no XXL class.


See I learned something new tonight! Thanks Lauren! I didn't know there wasn't an XXL class of Bullies. I'm with Tara I see them advertized all over the internet and I've seen people on this forum referring to their pups coming from XXL lineage. I'd be curious to see how Kennels are looked upon in the Bully world that advertising their dog's as XXL when in actuality they're not breeding to any set standard. We'll save that for another thread.


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## LoudMouf

*I am going to try my best to explain the variety standards for you the best I can. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to ask. I am going to try and break it down and simplify it to the best of my abilities. This is a post I made on the ABKC board in regards to the Breed Varieties.*

*After listening to the comments by judges, I have also seen judges agrue the Pocket v. Small Dog, it made me really think of what the ABKC established the classes for?

Pocket: The pocket bully was originally formed at a time when medium size dogs were the norm and competing across the board. The pocket standard was originally written for people who wanted to compete with smaller, more compact dogs that still had bully characteristics. Marco Suarez was one of the first people I remember even having pocket bullies, esp. on a consistent sense.










The dogs had bully characteristics but were very different from the standard American Bullies. The ABKC added the pocket class for people with this style of dog. Every definition of "pocket" refers to as small. A pocket dog by it's own definition set forth by the ABKC, "proportioned to the body frame." Therefore the "breed type" for a pocket dog should be: small, compact, shortback, proportioned, and still have American Bully looks.

The judges have said that the pocket class don't have the substance they should have. Comments have been made by judges that the pocket dogs should still carry the mass of a standard. If that is the case, how is that proportioned? BTK used a good reference, a SBT is 14-16in. tall and carry a weight of 28 to 38 pounds. How can a dog that is 16in. tall and 70-80 pounds be even remotely considered proportioned?









Suarez Bulls Gargoyle II- 16", 65 pounds, 23"

That is a good example of what a pocket dog should look like? How could you compare a dog that size to a standard size dog? He looks like a mini (hence pocket) version of a standard American Bully. How can a judge say that he is lacking breed type for an American Bully? How can he just be a tiny dog?
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Standard: The standard for the ABKC were dogs that were medium size that were between the sizes of 17-20in. dogs. They are still to be in proportioned, but allow for differences in weight as long as their weight doesn't effect their proportion, movement, or the overall breed type look. I remember seeing dogs like King Kamali, Heff, Tonka, Don Vitto, RN Gotti, etc.










It seems like this class is not made very clear: This is the foundation of the ABKC. The ABKC was created for the people who love their bullies and didn't have anywhere to go. The standard class will always be the backbone of the American Bully.

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XL: The XL class was originally formed for the guys with the large dogs. At the time, Ganghis Kon, RBG, Blueline, etc. were all bloodlines that were much taller and usually weighed more and were much greater in size. I understand the ABKC didn't want to exclude these people from the ABKC, therefore a standard was written that catered to them.










These dogs were still in proportion but just much larger dogs for people that still had bully characteristics but in breed type was definately different in aspects of size. The dogs tended to be taller and longer backs.

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Classic: The Classic class was the original design of the American Bully. When Razors Edge was competing in the UKC, the idea was to create a dog carrying a slight bit more mass than the competing lines in the UKC/AKC. These dogs were a tipping more on the overdone side, but were not grossly overdone therefore they still were successful in competing in the UKC & AKC. As the American Bully gain popularity and began to cross with other bully lines, the dog progressed into a larger mass dog which has now become the standard for the Standard Class American Bully, and with the UKC rewriting their breed standard in 2009 it left these previous competing UKC/AKC dogs no avenue to compete in. If they were to be shown under a current UKC judge who is an APBT they would find these dogs lacking moderation and overdone.









UKC CH under the previous UKC Breed Standard









Current ABKC Classic CH









2009 UKC Top Ten Dog

The ABKC must support these dogs because it is the building blocks that helped the American Bully develop into the dog it is today.
================================================== =============

MY THOUGHTS: I realize the ABKC is trying everything possible to not alienate ANYONE because we want everyone to feel like they have home. The fact of the matter is the future of the American Bully lay in the hands of the ABKC and it's decisions will effect the dogs for years and years to come. Right now, the "people" are already pushing the enevlope. In every registry in the world, once the standard for a breed is written, the breeders strive to produce that standard. In the ABKC, the breeders are NOT breeding to produce the standard, breeders are breeding to out-do the next breeder and keep 'pushing the envelope.' The extreme class I understand was formed to give the people who like extreme dogs to compete in, but where do you draw the line as to what is TOO EXTREME? Also by opening up an extreme class you are now GLORIFING breeding dogs that are NOT proportioned or balanced. By some of the judges defintions: extreme is 'out of the ordinary'......Ordinary is what a standard is suppose to be for a breed!!!!! Breed type and standard is suppose to be ordinary. We are telling breeders and fanciers, it is a positive to breed dogs that are NOT to standard or 'ordinary'. At some point we have to tell people, "no you can't win", if you want to win; breed dogs that fit the standard. Breeders are following the trends set forth by the judges. I can make you a promise, the extreme class in three years from now the ABKC standard dogs will looks like the extreme class and the extreme class will have very bulldogish features. Shorter muzzles, even wider, even thicker, even heavier and the American Bully will be facing the same health issues as the bulldog breeds. We need to stop changing and "evolving" because if we don't then we aren't a breed. It is the duty of the registry through it's judge's selections of suitable breeding stock to pursue conformity to the ABKC varieties currently available. I believe the Extreme Class is not something that will encourage proper breeding practices.*

*side note- I am a firm believer that the Extreme variety should be done away with. I have voiced these opinions to the ABKC on numerous occasions because the Extreme Class standard is noted as a Standard Class dog with "more body mass and heavier frames" on the same height parameters, but the only way to do that is to have a longer dog. The extreme class also has structural exemptions such as: The Extreme Class is allowed to have some looseness in skin, slightly higher rear, slightly turned out fronts & rears, some paddling and lumbering. In my personal opinion, it's absolutely wrong to accept these faults just to have an excessive overdone version of a Standard Class bully, because if the dog didn't have those faults the dog would just be a very impressive Standard Class bully. But since it is nearly impossible to carry the mass that some breeders are breeding for and keep the dog structurally sound, the ABKC has decided to excuse certain things to allow these dogs to compete. I think it is a horrible decision.


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## Sadie

Just out of curiosity I know the ABKC books are closing do you know roughly about how many dogs are currently registered with the ABKC?


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## LoudMouf

Elvisfink said:


> *Ok so what are you judging this dog to?
> Ambully?
> Classic?
> Pocket Pit?
> Extreme BUlly?
> Shorty Bull?
> Xl Bully?
> Biggest Chest?
> Extreme Bully?
> Those are listed classes at upcomeing AmBully event posted here on GP.com.
> What the hell is your standard? You've regurgitated most of the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier standard in your response to the dog posted, but come on. Really WHAT IS THE STANDARD FOR A BULLY? Is it like a Poodle where there are multiple classes? Standard, Medium, Miniature and toy? I'm not trying to be a **** I'm just uneducated to the standard or multiple standards of a Bully. Educate me! By the way I think MachO's dog rocks for a Bully! Show's what the hell I know about a Bully!
> *


Almost all ABKC events have ABKC sanctioned classes which include Standard, Pocket, XL, Extreme, and Classic. Those are the only sanctioned varieties. One of the most confusing things to outsiders is that alot of ABKC events, the show hosts offer "fun show" catergories which speciality classes by whoever the show host chooses to judge the class. Alot of times these show classes are for people who are interested in participating with their dogs that are not show quality animals therefore they offer insignificant superficial classes like "Biggest Head" and "Widest Chest" and "Most Freaky". Personally as an advocate for the ABKC, I believe these types of events are counter productive to the progression of the American Bully breed and give unknowledged owners a false sense of worth for subpar breeding quality dogs. This feeling is even more intensified when show hosts put cash prizes on these classes, because then breeders see a monetary gain by producing poorly bred animals rather than encouraging ethical responsible breeding practices.

Thus far, I have been reviewing every dog to the Classic class variety standard. I have yet to see a dog posted that I believe truly exhibits the Standard Class breed type, structure or conformation.



Elvisfink said:


> See I learned something new tonight! Thanks Lauren! I didn't know there wasn't an XXL class of Bullies. I'm with Tara I see them advertized all over the internet and I've seen people on this forum referring to their pups coming from XXL lineage. I'd be curious to see how Kennels are looked upon in the Bully world that advertising their dog's as XXL when in actuality they're not breeding to any set standard. We'll save that for another thread.


The XXL thing is nothing more than a sales ploy by kennels. Originally when the ABKC got established breeders were promoting their dogs as XL bullies, but in typical puppy mill fashion breeders couldn't just be satisifed having nice XL Bullies. They began promoting them as a step further as XXL bullies, and I have even seen breeders say XXXL bullies. The dogs are still ideally the same thing, breeders have just tried to make the dog's title sound more impressive to drive up puppy sales.


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## LoudMouf

Sadie said:


> Just out of curiosity I know the ABKC books are closing do you know roughly about how many dogs are currently registered with the ABKC?


To be honest, I am unaware of what the current numbers are. I would be more than happy to speak with the ABKC office and see if I can get a current registration count this coming week.


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## Sadie

Would just be interesting to know I can't remember when the ABKC first opened it's books but if I remember correctly i believe it was back 2004-2005? I know you guys have really grown over the last few years though. I like what you said about doing away with the extreme class I think you are right on the money with that. Until tonight I really thought there were xxl and xxxl bullies so because I didn't see a class for them I thought maybe they fell under the extreme class lol.


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## LoudMouf

Sadie said:


> Would just be interesting to know I can't remember when the ABKC first opened it's books but if I remember correctly i believe it was back 2004-2005? I know you guys have really grown over the last few years though. I like what you said about doing away with the extreme class I think you are right on the money with that. Until tonight I really thought there were xxl and xxxl bullies so because I didn't see a class for them I thought maybe they fell under the extreme class lol.


Actually the ABKC wasn't actually established until probably closer to 2006/2007. I think I remember the first ABKC events in late 06 early 07 but the idea had been in the works for a few years previous. I think it was a matter of figuring out the the logistics. You know, just like the APBT is plagued with irresponsible breeders the American Bully community faces the same issues. What makes the American Bully community worse is you get glorified heros such as Fabian (founder of "Remyline") who bought Remy Martin for $500 and a treadmill and has bred his dog to anyone willing to pay $2500 and has produced 1000 pups. Also it's hard for alot of people to put their ethics above the idea of making REAL money and not having to work to get it. Regardless of breed of choice, the idea of making $1000 plus for letting your dog breed with another is hard to turn down when the cash is in your face. Here's the best analogy I can think of, if you watched someone drop $1000 would you keep it or give it back? Alot of people would keep it knowing it is wrong and morally right to give it back.........same ethics apply to these people breeding subpar quality American Bullies for nothing more than the freaky factor to the highest bidder.


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## Sadie

Manny this is where I guess I get confused for dogs that are am bullies but don't fit the ABKC standard what should they do ? Could this dog be shown under the ukc current standards ?Because some bullies fall more on the apbt side but by there pedigrees they are not APBT'S so what do you recommend an owner to do in that situation ? I can easily spot an adba sytle dog but when dealing with the ukc and ABKC I guess I am confused as to where the line on conformation is drawn as to where the dog should be shown and have a better chance of competing and winning. I do however realize not all dogs are show quality animals.


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## SemperFiBullies_Manny

Sadie said:


> Manny this is where I guess I get confused for dogs that are am bullies but don't fit the ABKC standard what should they do? Could this dog be shown under the ukc current standards? Because some bullies fall more on the apbt side but by there pedigrees they are not APBT'S so what do you recommend an owner to do in that situation? I can easily spot an adba sytle dog but when dealing with the ukc and ABKC I guess I am confused as to where the line on conformation is drawn as to where the dog should be shown and have a better chance of competing and winning. I do however realize not all dogs are show quality animals.


*For the most part you answered your own questions, not every dog is gonna be show quality. If I have a dog that does not meet the ABKC standard then I'm not going to show it.*

*In my opinion this dog carries more of the UKC APBT breed type than an Am Bully, so I think it would have a better chance in the UKC.*

*Neuter/Spay and enjoy it as a pet. Its not the end of the world if the dog cannot be shown, you can do agility, dock diving, flyball etc. Lots of positive activities owners can still do with their dog.*


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## LoudMouf

I would have to concur with Manny's evaluation of the your beautiful girl! I also want to commend Manny on his suggestions of other activities to perform with their dog, because just because a dog is not cut out for a show career does not mean there are not other great activities for the dog. Another one he didn't mention, depend on the dog's temperment, is going to therapy dog service.

Sadie brought up a very interesting dilemma in your post:



> Manny this is where I guess I get confused for dogs that are am bullies but don't fit the ABKC standard what should they do ? Could this dog be shown under the ukc current standards ?Because some bullies fall more on the apbt side but by *there pedigrees they are not APBT'S *


Their pedigree ARE APBTs. Without getting back into everyone's "personal opinion" of what an APBT, the UKC still recognizes these dogs as APBTs because there are not other breeders mixed it. (Remember the AmStaff was considered an APBT to the UKC at the time) This is the reason why I say not all Razors Edge dogs are American Bullies, because in the process of trying to produce conformational quality American Bullies, some of the by product have been very successful UKC show APBTs. But like Manny said, not all dogs are show dogs either, and have conformational faults or disqualifing faults that limit their ability to show.


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## Sadie

LoudMouf said:


> I would have to concur with Manny's evaluation of the your beautiful girl! I also want to commend Manny on his suggestions of other activities to perform with their dog, because just because a dog is not cut out for a show career does not mean there are not other great activities for the dog. Another one he didn't mention, depend on the dog's temperment, is going to therapy dog service.
> 
> Sadie brought up a very interesting dilemma in your post:
> 
> Their pedigree ARE APBTs. Without getting back into everyone's "personal opinion" of what an APBT, the UKC still recognizes these dogs as APBTs because there are not other breeders mixed it. (Remember the AmStaff was considered an APBT to the UKC at the time) This is the reason why I say not all Razors Edge dogs are American Bullies, because in the process of trying to produce conformational quality American Bullies, some of the by product have been very successful UKC show APBTs. But like Manny said, not all dogs are show dogs either, and have conformational faults or disqualifing faults that limit their ability to show.


LOL It's funny because you have people mixing show blood into game blood, bully blood into show blood, bully blood into game blood. And we even have a new name for it all PITTERSTAFF! lmao!!! I am surprised you don't see breeder's now pushing these dogs as pitterstaff's and selling them as such lol.... it's so silly and just adds so much more confusion to it all . The registries don't care though they are out for profit bottom line. We had another heated debate about why someone would take a show bred dog AKC/UKC and cross it into Game Blood. I know not everyone agree's but I am sure you can at least respect and understand as someone trying to preserve the American Bully and cut out all the garbage that goes on within your breed from poor breeding practices. Why us APBT/Game dog folks get so offended when we see show breeder's taking AKC or UKC show blood and crossing it into game blood when we are working to preserve these working bloodlines that dog men spent their entire lives selectively breeding. It's just like trying to tell a die hard AKC Amstaff owner that they should register their dog's with the ADBA/UKC as APBT's. These guys don't want to have any part of it because these registries will not recognize their dogs as American Staffordshire Terries when it's clear to all parties on either side of the fence that the Amstaff has been selectively bred for the show ring for quite some time now they have evolved into their own breed. Physically the AKC staff no longer remotely even looks the same as an APBT nor are they bred for the same purpose and function. Like I said it just adds more drama and confusion for all sides trying to maintain and preserve their breed of choice.


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## LoudMouf

Sadie said:


> LOL It's funny because you have people mixing show blood into game blood, bully blood into show blood, bully blood into game blood. And we even have a new name for it all PITTERSTAFF! lmao!!! I am surprised you don't see breeder's now pushing these dogs as pitterstaff's and selling them as such lol.... it's so silly and just adds so much more confusion to it all . The registries don't care though they are out for the money bottom line. We had another heated debate about why someone would take a show bred dog AKC/UKC and cross it into Game Blood. I know not everyone agree's but I am sure you can at least respect and understand as someone trying to preserve the American Bully and cut out all the garbage that goes on within your breed from poor breeding practices. Why us APBT/Game dog folks get so offended when we see show breeder's taking AKC or UKC show blood and crossing it into game blood. It's just like trying to tell a die hard AKC Amstaff owner that they should register their dog's with the ADBA/UKC as APBT's. These guys don't want to have any part of it because these registries will not recognize their dogs as American Staffordshire Terries when it's clear to all of that the Amstaff has been selectively bred for the show ring for quite some time now. Physically the AKC staff no longer remotely even looks the same nor are they bred for the same purpose and function. Like I said it just adds more drama and confusion for all sides trying to maintain and preserve their breed of choice.


Actually I have never even heard anyone use the term "Pitterstaff" until I came to GP. In fact I think it is probably one of the silliest things i have ever heard, and seems like a term coined by someone trying to discredit breeders of previous AKC/UKC dogs that were showing in the UKC. Like I have previous stated, until last year the UKC did not have any issue accepting the AmStaff as APBTs so people did not need to call them "Pitterstaffs" because in the eyes of only registry that would accept both dogs (the UKC) they would be APBTs. Actually we can agree on one thing, die hard AKC people (of any breed) feel their registry is above every other registry, following this same philosophy do ADBA breeders worry about registering with the AADR, UCA, or any other registry that they feel is beneath their registries status?

AKC
UKC - ADBA
AADR - ABKC - BFKC
UCA - ABBA - RKC - ANY OTHER BS REGISTRY​
It seems unlike until last year this was the pyramid structure that registries followed. Paperwork could always transfer down the pyramid but never UP and sideways. If I really wanted to break it down more, there is a three level and fourth where paperwork is laterally accepted then you have all the BS registries on the bottom, but this give you a general idea of how the registry pyramid is for the APBT/Amstaff.


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## Sadie

See the people who I am close to in the dog world are no longer registering their dog's or the litter's they produce with any of the above registers. Most of them are just keeping hand written pedigree's nowadays a few up coming dogs I am adding to my yard will not be registered not that they can't be but by choice will not be registered. I have quite a few buddies who do show with the AADR .... My dog's are both ADBA/BFKC registered I also do not breed as I have no reason to. But I get where you are coming from I actually don't like to get caught up in the registry BS because I understand that as long as profit comes from registering dogs there will always be BS that surrounds it all. And yes I agree that term Pitterstaff really is stupid and it irks the crap out of me when I hear people use it and push it as if it's some sort of established breed LOL. But what can you do.. I am sure tomorrow it will be something else .... I guess I am just big on preserving these working lines we have left that haven't been destroyed or ruined by BYB's ....


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## LoudMouf

Sadie said:


> *See the people who I am close to in the dog world are no longer registering their dog's or the litter's they produce with any of the above registers. Most of them are just keeping hand written pedigree's nowadays* a few up coming dogs I am adding to my yard will not be registered not that they can't be but by choice will not be registered. I have quite a few buddies who do show with the AADR .... My dog's are both ADBA/BFKC registered I also do not breed as I have no reason to. But I get where you are coming from I actually don't like to get caught up in the registry BS because I understand that as long as profit comes from registering dogs there will always be BS that surrounds it all. And yes I agree that term Pitterstaff really is stupid and it irks the crap out of me when I hear people use it and push it as if it's some sort of established breed LOL. But what can you do.. I am sure tomorrow it will be something else .... I guess I am just big on preserving these working lines we have left that haven't been destroyed or ruined by BYB's ....


That is going to further contribute to the issue.


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## Sadie

Not really because they are not breeding to the public everything they breed is for themselves so I don't see how that could contribute to the problem. These guys will rarely let a dog go and like I said if they do its going to someone within their circle they are not sending these dogs to just anyone.


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## LoudMouf

Sadie said:


> Not really because they are not breeding to the public everything they breed is for themselves so I don't see how that could contribute to the problem. These guys will rarely let a dog go and like I said if they do its going to someone within their circle they are not sending these dogs to just anyone.


I understand they are breeding for themselves, but you can not control every dog you breed. Producing dogs is a trickle down effect and no matter how much you attempt to keep them all to yourself down the cycle dogs always get out which adds to the problem. No one is exempt from the overpopulation issue of the bully breeds, no even the most rare game lines or the most selectively bully breeder. If we are producing dogs, we are STILL part of the problem. I'm sorry I can't condone that.


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## Sadie

LoudMouf said:


> I understand they are breeding for themselves, but you can not control every dog you breed. Producing dogs is a trickle down effect and no matter how much you attempt to keep them all to yourself down the cycle dogs always get out which adds to the problem. No one is exempt from the overpopulation issue of the bully breeds, no even the most rare game lines or the most selectively bully breeder. If we are producing dogs, we are STILL part of the problem. I'm sorry I can't condone that.


Yes there is always a risk in breeding this trickle down effect apply's to everyone breeding I agree with that even the best breeder with the best intentions can't control what another person does with their dogs. These folks are not breeding dog's of unknown linage they just don't register these dogs for their own personal reasons however they know exactly what they are breeding and hand written pedigree's are not a bad thing dog men have kept them for years. Hell there are plenty of dogs registered who's papers are bogus so in all honesty it just depends on the breeder and how trustworthy that breeder is even with paper's. It's too easy to hang paper's and it's been going on for years. I can say that people like the one's I know are very well aware of the problem which is why they rarely breed and when they do they keep what they breed 99% of the time. It's very rare for them to let a dog go and if it does it's kept within the circle they don't allow their dog's to go to the general population their circles are closed they only deal with so many people so if you are able to ever get a dog off them your lucky. As my mentor said to me I don't need to pay the ADBA to tell me how my dog's are bred. I understand you don't condone hand written pedigree's but IMO I don't have an issue with them so long as the man who is breeding and keeping the handwritten peds is an honest breeder. I don't think everyone should be keeping hand written pedigree's either there is nothing wrong with registering your dog's if you so choose to. There are reasons why someone would choose not to register their dogs but I am not going into that one LOL ...


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## LoudMouf

Sadie said:


> Yes there is always a risk in breeding this trickle down effect apply's to everyone breeding I agree with that even the best breeder with the best intentions can't control what another person does with their dogs. These folks are not breeding dog's of unknown linage they just don't register these dogs for their own personal reasons however they know exactly what they are breeding and hand written pedigree's are not a bad thing dog men have kept them for years. Hell there are plenty of dogs registered who's papers are bogus so in all honesty it just depends on the breeder and how trustworthy that breeder is even with paper's. It's too easy to hang paper's and it's been going on for years. I can say that people like the one's I know are very well aware of the problem which is why they rarely breed and when they do they keep what they breed 99% of the time. It's very rare for them to let a dog go and if it does it's kept within the circle they don't allow their dog's to go to the general population their circles are closed they only deal with so many people so if you are able to ever get a dog off them your lucky. As my mentor said to me I don't need to pay the ADBA to tell me how my dog's are bred. I understand you don't condone hand written pedigree's but IMO I don't have an issue with them so long as the man who is breeding and keeping the handwritten peds is an honest breeder. I don't think everyone should be keeping hand written pedigree's either there is nothing wrong with registering your dog's if you so choose to. There are reasons why someone would choose not to register their dogs but I am not going into that one LOL ...


Then please tell them to cull everything they are not personally keeping in their own yard and I will be 100% supportive.


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## Kristen623

How does one attempt to decide to show his/her dog in the ABKC. My pup's father Cash is in shows and his owner told me if I wanted to show Mason, she'd train us. I told her I'd think about it. Do you have to work out the dog by pulling? I would love to hear more about preparing a dog to show


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## pitbullmamanatl

Kristen623 said:


> How does one attempt to decide to show his/her dog in the ABKC. My pup's father Cash is in shows and his owner told me if I wanted to show Mason, she'd train us. I told her I'd think about it. Do you have to work out the dog by pulling? I would love to hear more about preparing a dog to show


To show ABKC conformation your dog needs to know how to stack and work on gaiting around the ring. Some dogs pick up on it easy and some take more time. If you have someone to help you learn how to stack a dog correcly you should pursue it. Go to a show and watch the ring. You will pick up on it by observation if anything. Where are you located? I can tell you when the next few shows are around you. You need to register your dog with the ABKC if he isn't already.
*Registration*
Your dog must have either AKC, UKC, or ADBA paperwork to register with the ABKC.









Proper stack


















I'll post more info but I have to get ready for my brother's wedding so I'll do it later tonight.


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