# Bloodline history



## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm trying to learn more about the bloodlines and I'm curious if besides this forum is there any where else to look so that when I see a pedigree the dogs are not foreign to me . I looked on the net and I find a lot of good stuff but I don't know what's fact or not or just someone's interpretation. Where I'm from there are a lot if any real dogmen to try and reach out to except mr Boudreaux but i don't know exactly where to meet him and there aren't any shows in this area. They majority of people have american bullies with ukc papers listing apbt or they are byb so not much help there. When someone has a bully and I hear its 100% this or that and even a novice such as myself can clearly see its a bully. I don't have anything against bullies as long as its standard or classic but with my puppy coming I want to do right by the dog and the breed and I feel knowing the breed and history is vital. Sorry for writing all this but I wanted to get my point across thanks in advance


----------



## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Yeah - just keep reading, use the search box. By now you have noticed some names being tossed around, some dogs, some dog folk, and some merit that is contained by both. There is info that goes along with merit and pedigrees to go by. Just a basic outline to learn. 
have you grown fond of any breeders or dogs at this point that you wish to learn more about? There have to be shows in your area. Where are you located at?
Stick around and you will start leaning one way or another.


----------



## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

@mccoy I don't have any particular breeder or dog I'm interested in at this point as I don't know a lot yet to pique my interest I been mostly reading about health and nutrition since I have a pup coming on the first of sept. to answer your question I'm from southern Louisiana and Floyd Boudreaux is the man around here. The problem is way too many byb just throw is name around to try and sell pups for money and after being on the forum I've learned it's really a mutt with no pedigree which I have so its nothing to be ashamed of. I looked on the adba site and there isn't anything around here I might try the abkc site to see and maybe I'll luck up

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Once you know strains and names if your good at puzzles you'll start to see characteristics of each strain, sub strain, and family that the breeders locked down in their stock. .. At least your smart enough to learn all you can and not assume you know all. 

:welcome: to GPB!!


----------



## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

Like I stated when I started this thread I want to learn about bloodlines and certain traits that has been locked down over the years but I believe I want to learn about Floyd Boudreaux and his line I was doing some digging and I read about Eli who produced Eli jr, bullyson then along came art, honeybunch, jeep and these are names that I hear went on to be very good dogs I will keep digging and reading this forum so next time I hear " I have a Boudreaux dog" I want to know how and hopefully they will realize they don't know

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

FLoyd B is good guy and attends many shows in the eastern parts of Texas. He has had a great number of dogs too. I my self would start looking at the attributes you like the most in the breed. Then of those start to look into the lines that consistantly produce the thing you think to be most important. For example you want a long lasting athlete that wont run out of breth well to me that is a redboy quality so then I find out about red boy
You want an animal with a powerful build and strong well alot of Eli Boudreuax dog posses this quality. Check out the blood line section and read on threads about diffrent dogs and lines. Happy hunting!


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Pknattsr I have also recently started looking into blood lines and histories.

There are some amazing stories out there about original bulldogs. Its exciting to read.

I found this was a helpful interview. APBT: Interview With Danny Burton - I then googled the names that were mentioned in this article, and from there I found Game Dog History | Download Gamedog Magazines

I am still working my way through that... I know though that I will have to go through and reread all of that stuff again, because getting all of those names to stick, putting a breeder's name to a dogman's name, to an actual dog is a challenge for me at this stage. lol

Not to confuse you though... but I found this site and they have a pretty nice picture history of sires through their kennels change from APBT to AmStaff. Lamasko X-Pert Kennels - American Staffordshire Terrier


----------



## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks katey ill start trying to put the puzzles together you right I will also have to reread everything to get it to stick good luck to you

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Pknattsr said:


> Thanks katey ill start trying to put the puzzles together you right I will also have to reread everything to get it to stick good luck to you
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Good luck to you too... I stopped and got eye drops on the way home to relieve the eye strain from all the reading I'm heading for. Rofl

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

Katey said:


> Good luck to you too... I stopped and got eye drops on the way home to relieve the eye strain from all the reading I'm heading for. Rofl
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The exact quote I gave someone was "read until you think your eyes are gonna bleed. Then read more"


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Just Tap Pits said:


> The exact quote I gave someone was "read until you think your eyes are gonna bleed. Then read more"


Hahaha... That's good to know...thanks for the head up

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

The more I read the more I realize how little I know about the history of these dogs.

It makes me wish that I could find out a little more about where my dog comes from. Or that South Africa had chronicles on dogmen and breeding.

Does anyone know when the first game dogs were brought over to South Africa? And what dogs those were?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Katey said:


> Not to confuse you though... but I found this site and they have a pretty nice picture history of sires through their kennels change from APBT to AmStaff. Lamasko X-Pert Kennels - American Staffordshire Terrier


 As per the above , and to highlight the connection between performance dogs and what were once performance AmStaffs , and YES the latter did exist and they did so into the '80 , in spite of what *anyone* will attempt to tell you.

Research forwards and backwards on the two pedigrees and see where you you end up , pay close attention to where the bitch ( Ferris's Red Hot) leads to. In the second pay attention where the dog came from..........along with where it leads to.

As per the S.A. dogs , look to the imports that Jurgen brought in , in specific the Bourbon and Jack Daniels dogs direct off of Gr.Ch. Spike , also the Cumming based dogs that came through the Red Fox imports , you'll want to look at the dogs that ended up there from Limey Kennels.

There were rumors that the Irish crowd sent some dogs down from Gr.Ch. Badger to S.A. , I personally have my doubts as to that though since Badger wasn't bred all that much within the Irish/English theatre and those boys kept most of it for themselves.

Within the context of S.a. research the Liquorice Kid , Jurgen , Hawley , the latter of course leading to the dogs imported off Gr.Ch. Hank blood. The L.K. dogs are where the *real* Carver dogs came into S.A.

ONLINE PEDIGREES file=printPedigree&dog_id=531

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [36096] :: BROWN'S TACOMA JACK (9XW)


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

i think the lickerish kid was from there also.


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

OldDog thanks for you help with that.

I have those pages up now, and I'm looking.

What happened to the performance AmStaffs though? Did they stop breeding for gameness, and start breeding for color and conformation?

I was reading this, APBT: Interview With Sonny Sykes (I know its an old interview) and Sonny says that he doesn't think that there are any true game dogs any more. Do you think this true?

Would it be possible to re introduce deadgameness to the future dogs?


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

DUmb post my bad!


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

stupidest thing I tyoped in a long time dead game dogs running around haha no but they are still produced. I am going to send you a pm on one of the best dogs in recent history.


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

surfer said:


> i think the lickerish kid was from there also.


I managed to find this.

SA APBT Database

Now that I am learning how to read a ped, it is getting easier to recognise dogs I have heard about in interviews, and from stories online.


----------



## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

That's a good question katey what did happen to the performance amstaffs I have always heard that amstaffs were bred from apbt into a show line and wouldn't those performance amstaffs be the link between those 2 and keep up with the history it's just more for me yo learn from everybody and google today

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Pknattsr said:


> That's a good question katey what did happen to the performance amstaffs I have always heard that amstaffs were bred from apbt into a show line and wouldn't those performance amstaffs be the link between those 2 and keep up with the history it's just more for me yo learn from everybody and google today
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


SAfrican pit owners like pits that look like AmStaffs... so I think the same sort of selective breeding went into getting some of the dogs we have here now.

Personally I prefer the look of a smaller dog, that is more lean muscle than built muscle.

I think this dog is amazing
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [62413] :: BILLY SUNDAY

I have been loving google the last couple of days.

How is your researching going Pknattsr?


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [997] :: TUDOR'S BLACK DEMON

Went both ways!!! ^^^^ like many well bred dogs of olden times....... 
I found some tacoma clouse that seems pretty well bred, they keep to themselves though.

...................................................................................................................................

HOWARD HEINZL 1955
Many dog men you meet start by telling you how many years they have had Bull And Terriers. I got my first one when I was 9 years old, and all of 31 years ago. All this proves to my way of thinking is that I like dogs, and mostly that I'm getting older. The hottest dog man around Arizona now is Charlie Spencer, who started about 4 years ago. He's won 3 or 4 good ones with his 48 pound Toby dog, and the one man to beat him so far was Ken Barney, at 36 pounds. Ken has had Pit Bulls about 2 ½ years now, and will match one at the drop of a hat. Both Spencer's Toby and Kenny's 36 pound dog were bred by Ed Ritcheson, Ed lost three in a row trying to beat dogs of his own breeding with dogs he would buy around the country. From here on Ed tells me he's using his own.
Another dog man bound to be heard from is Clarence Hager, his wife is as much of a fan as he is. He had two dogs stopped in rolls here lately, and he will shake hands with you afterward, and thank you for helping cull his kennel and cut his feed bill, as he put it. We've all seen old timers at the game who would pout and make excuses when one quit. The old timers who did anything don't have to tell you how many years they have had Bull Terriers, you read about them in the records.

I think John P Colby tops as a breeder. The rolls I saw when I was up at Colby's in 1935 or 1936 were better than half the matches I have ever seen in my life. John P called them turn ups. It was hot around Boston so any local action was kept quiet. A lot of people who didn't know any better said J.P never set one down. Three dead game Colby dogs I have had were Sport, Buddy, and Hobo. I think I have some good ones now, but to say a dog that is still living dead game is wishful thinking. None of these three dogs ever made a turn in there life or before they left it. I have over a dozen old Colby pedigrees around the house, and I can't find one of the dogs in them Mr. Pete Sparks mentioned in a recent copy of Bloodlines, I'm sure he was mistaken.

Back in about 1933 in Chicago Bruce Johnson introduced me to Chuck Doyle, at the time he had a brindle bitch with a bad hind leg that was about to whelp. About a year and a half later we matched a 38 pound dog we bought from Jim Corrington, against one of these pups we had Old Sandy in about fair chain shape after all this rookie Doyle couldn't beat us wise old heads, he didn't miss it though I think it lasted about 20 minutes Doyles dog just waved Sandy around like a flag, and he started looking over his shoulder for help so Bruce threw in the sponge. Doyle's dog wasn't even warmed up yet. I believe Tudor is in a class by himself, as a dog fighter I've read about different men being called tops in the business but, if they come close to Tudor's record they must have been matching dogs on another planet.

When Tudor and Art Nemecheck ran a pit they won 23 UKC fights in one month, that's more than myself and a lot of other guys had in a lifetime, win or lose. It wasn't to long back that Tudor had a challenge in Bloodlines to match three dogs for $1,000 with him losing the grand if he didn't win all three go's. He made the first UKC Champion and John P Colby bred him. Tudor's wife Flo is just as good a judge of pit dogs as he is and probably the worlds best cook. A fan out here told me that J.P or his boy's never ever saw a convention, I don't know what that proves, neither did the Farmer Brothers of Chicago Rip, Ryan, George Armitage or Red Considine and they were all pretty fair dog men.

Armitage taught us all a little about making it out here. He said a match well made was half won. Just before Armitage arrived out here Wiz Hubbard matched Hube Yates it was a bitch fight, (Lady vs Trilby) and spotted him 9 pounds Wiz lost about $500.00 but picked his bitch up to save her. Armitage never fought many dogs in his life, but he sure matched them carefully. He thought Clark's Tramp was the best dog that ever lived. Tramp was pure Colby. We have a bunch of dogs out here now, the oldest of them are about 5 years old, some have fought at the convention two in old Mexico and so far they are outstanding. This Spencer's Toby is one and Richeson's Lark, Peggy, Monkey, Jeep ,Pete, and Shiner are a few more of them, that stood the test and are stand out pit dogs.

Five years ago I figured they would fall apart, as did a lot of other people some of course quit like any line will, but for a new cross Ed breeds them back in and sure gets some out standing pit dogs. He got his first ace Jeep by breeding his Jack Meeks Mouse to Hubbards Gimp. He then bred Jeep to Hubbards Sissy and raised his best bitch Spotty who is the dam or grand dam of all aforementioned, dogs there sire was Spike a dog Ed bought from Al Brown, so this old rugged cross is part Meeks breeding part Feeley and half Al Brown's Spike. Spike also had some Feeley blood in his back ground.

One of the best dogs I ever saw was a red nosed dog from Clas Conklin in Lenox South Dakota. I don't think his red nose had anything to do with the size of his heart. Though I've seen and had red nosed dogs that would quit like a turkey,* when I start breeding for color I'll sure call them Staffordsires because that's all they will be in a couple of generations.* In reading through several back Bloodlines there are lots of pictures of good looking dogs at stud with captions telling how they can fight. I've yet to see an ad with what is a lot more important a record of how some of his sons and daughters have fought and maybe a copy of his breeding. Leading horse magazines always list the achievements of the stallons as not all good performers, are good sires Braddock and Billy Sunday were two great dogs in the pit but never sired any outstanding pups.

I have an 8 year old 40 pound Colby dog Kayo farmed out with some friends he is the sire of Adams Botcher who won in 1 hour and 40 minutes in Mexico, I wasn't down there at the time but have a film of the fight, Botcher went uphill 4 pounds and beat a good dog holding one nose hold 30 minutes which is longer than a lot of dogs will fight. They were both dead game dogs and proved it. Botchers dam was a little cross bred bitch that quit in about 10 minutes I tried to talk Adams out of breeding her to Kayo but, he did and raised some good ones. Old Kayo is by Colby's Tinker out of Colby's Scarlett, he lost his teeth early but, stopped two bigger dogs Phil Iavlkner shipped in from California in 30 minutes each. They were ******** and Timmy. He also stopped a dog Black and Bill Anderson had called the Chicago dog in a little over 32 minutes and with no teeth he went 20 minutes with Lark. The best 50 pound dog we ever had out here, no one else cared to roll anything with Lark. And Leo White came out and wanted to see him go, now the only black mark on Kayo's record should be on mine.

Before Ed Ritcheson and I were partners I matched Kayo into a black dog that Ed had that I didn't think was much. Kayo had poor wind and I thought some Knox gelatin before the fight would give him an added push, he wouldn't drink the beef broth I put in it so I mixed another packet of gelatin in about half a pint of goat milk and it sure choked the old boy down. He gagged and slobbered after the first five minutes he kept coughing up big strings of flem. Ed's dog wasn't hurting him so I let it go after 56 or 58 minutes it was Kayo's turn to scratch and he waddled toward a couple steps gapping like a fish and was counted out he didn't lay down sit down or tuck his head in the corner, like a cur usually does. I picked him up and set him outside the pit. He was really wobbly and the whites of his eyes were solid red but he didn't flop down and rest. When Ed carried his black dog past to his car old Kayo staggered after him. I sure wasn't very proud of my conditioning but I made it up to the old boy, he's got a real good home up in the mountains with some swell people and has the run of there house and yard. I wont say any living dog is dead game but, I think a lesser dog than Kayo would have curled up and died after the going over Lark gave him.

A few of his better offspring are: Ken Barney's Sadie, Stewart Adams' Honest John, General, Botcher and I have a 46 pound son of his that will do, his name is Colonel. I have a pure Lightner stud dog Lightner's Tony, I'm sure Bill Lightner didn't keep him around just for a pet, but I will wait about 6 more months to brag about Tony as the dozen or so pups Ed and I have by him are a little young yet to set down hard but, they all act extra good and are hot to go. It's hard to get two or more people to agree on anything, I imagine that would apply even if they raised sheep. Well Bull Dog people are no exception unless that we are harder headed than most groups. I think it would be interesting if a lot of fanciers would write in with there opinion of the best dog, best conditioner, best handler etc etc. I'm sure it would create quite a bit of interest.

When Art Shinler from Detroit conditioned the Smith Brothers dog against Bruce Johnson and myself he did a top job. Red Considine had Lena in a good a shape as a dog can get in Chicago when she beat Bernero's Jackie in about 1932, Jim Curry had his Midas dog about right as they get for that Spider dog some Texas boys brought to Lexington in 1936. but, I still have to pick Earl Tudor when he is really cracking as boss of em' all. If you match him at a given weight you can't have a dog that is just a little better and win. The best dog I ever owned was Colby's Buddy. The roughest dog was Ed Ritcheson's Lark. The one I'd hate most to go up against and try to beat would be Tudor's Demon about 10 years ago. I haven't the paper or time to tell you about all the curs I've had but, I'm sure we all get them, and it makes those scarce game ones worth all the more. I've got dogs tied to dogs at my place. Any over a year old have been out at least 30 minutes (off the chain). I call them half honest and think in shape will be worth a bet, with all the other dogs of all ages and the care involved the job gets a little old after 30 years but, I guess I'll have them 30 more if I live that long.


----------



## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

@ katey since I'm from southern Louisiana I been looking into Boudreaux's Eli since mr Boudreaux is the the standard around these parts and I'm literally amazed at his dogs and their linage but like always I'm still digging how's your research going ?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

^^^^^^ READ^^^^^^^ 

Dogs he mentioned are often found in apbt and ast pedigrees, there are still some performance staffs... mostly private yards.

Genetically they are the same dog.. but to describe this best... 

Say you have two humans twins.. one is a light heavyweight ch and the other a couch potatoe who doesnt have any faith in himself... are they both genetically identical ?? are they both human?? Same with bulldogs... thus the difference in a APBT and a AST


----------



## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

I read it 3 times fire hazard and that's a good comparison between apbt and amstaffs

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [997] :: TUDOR'S BLACK DEMON
> 
> Went both ways!!! ^^^^ like many well bred dogs of olden times.......
> I found some tacoma clouse that seems pretty well bred, they keep to themselves though.
> ...


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Pknattsr said:


> @ katey since I'm from southern Louisiana I been looking into Boudreaux's Eli since mr Boudreaux is the the standard around these parts and I'm literally amazed at his dogs and their linage but like always I'm still digging how's your research going ?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


FLoyd is still aroung those part he and his son GUy will talk dog with most any one that is intreasted. You shouldnt have to many problem finding them.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [997] :: TUDOR'S BLACK DEMON
> 
> Went both ways!!! ^^^^ like many well bred dogs of olden times.......
> I found some tacoma clouse that seems pretty well bred, they keep to themselves though.
> ...


 That is correct , and many would be surprised where that streak of Tacoma blood turns up in pedigrees , example Red Baby was one of the better producing bitches of the start of the modern era.......... went R.O.M. with *just* the Tonka/Crash/Snubby litter , not counting other dogs she produced , and then of course her influence downstream , such with Dirty Mary , who produced very good percentages in a limited breeding career.

When examining an R.O.M. examine the *number* breedings that took place. Or quite bluntly...........Jeep and Frisco better damn well be r.o.m given the amount of times they were bred. Contrast that as regards dogs ( males) with Gr.Ch Art prior to his theft. Then examine *consistency* of production and the carrying on of certain traits.

Folks sitting on the Tacoma blood are quite close mouthed nowadays , some of it is still going into Patricks blood that has a heavy Clouse content , and some has gone to Boudreaux blood that in the end is very heavy Dibo.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [13] :: PATRICK'S RED BABY

Note behind the Red Hot bitch that produced Ch. Bosco when bred to Ch. Staber. Follow back behind that.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Pknattsr said:


> @ katey since I'm from southern Louisiana I been looking into Boudreaux's Eli since mr Boudreaux is the the standard around these parts and I'm literally amazed at his dogs and their linage but like always I'm still digging how's your research going ?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Yeah , well if you're going to look to Floyds stuff you'd best look beyond JUST Eli , start taking a look at Boze and Blind Billy and how they were crossed into certain other stock.

An example of how the Boze stuff and Eli stuff goes together. Behind that please not that the Ch.Minnie bitch is directly off of Arizona Pete , Dibo's brother.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [11212] :: CUMMING'S DUTCH BOY


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

surfer said:


> i think the lickerish kid was from there also.


 Yup , mentioned him in the above , he's the carver link as regards the S.A. dogs.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Love that kinda stuff...


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Stan nother reason you should come down for nats got a Heinzl Fancier you should meet.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

???? really ???? hmmm?? PM me any current dogs they're running... Im aiming for it. I got a Heinzl in the works, ol goofy dog if he's still shootin.


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Not a ped online kind of guy oddly enough he has a FB page lol. Good guy Been talking with him recently drew a dog for him.
She was a 50/50 colby Heinzle gorgeous girl!


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

NICE!!!!!!


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Pknattsr said:


> @ katey since I'm from southern Louisiana I been looking into Boudreaux's Eli since mr Boudreaux is the the standard around these parts and I'm literally amazed at his dogs and their linage but like always I'm still digging how's your research going ?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If I was going to get a dog I would want to import it, I quite like the Corvina dogs and the Cummings dogs but the Tudor dogs were incredible. I would only be looking for another dog in about 5 years, so I have plenty of time to learn about whose got good dogs now. I'd be quite interested to see some of the new dogs that are being bred now.

@FH that Heinzel piece was an incredible read. How do you and Olddog remember all the names. lol. I'm having trouble keeping it all straight right now.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Im a heinzl fan, and a J.P. fan... Tudors just because he was an outlaw okie and almost everything he touched turned to gold like midas.. LOL Tudors says Heinzl was better than J.P. .. Heinzl says J.P. was better than him.  Thats modesty you don't see much anymore... Tell ya what, grab G.H. books, from catchdogenterprise.com ( think) it really is a good touch on the bulldog world. Stevens book is a great piece anyone bulldogger should own.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

ONLINE PEDIGREES - Access Denied
bully gal, probly gonna need your help again,

is this the tacoma jack that ya'll are talkin about??????????
i'm one generation removed from this one, this is my mentors' mentor.

but i do know some good ones came from this family of dogs,
d. mayfield is where hank came from jocko's daddy.

this camp here was a hard one to beat. i'm gonna try to put another one up,

i did notice on the bottom of the screen,
my html is turned off and everything else is turned on

ONLINE PEDIGREES - Access Denied

but if you put the arrow on the words online pedigrees then click it comes up


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I reall enjoyed Bob stevens book. Hammond book pretty good to for the price I don't know lol! good reads any novice should look in to the stratton books too. 

I think Ms Katey Has great mind set!


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Think this is who you were trying to post surfer.. 
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [22846] :: JACKSON'S TACOMA JACK (1XGL)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1527] :: MIDDLETON'S FACE (YOUNG)

IFNOT ^^ My bad...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [36096] :: BROWN'S TACOMA JACK (9XW)

I was referring to this guy ^^^ what looks scattered in all is actually colby or paddy with a hint of corcorron up and down in the 6 & 7th...


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

how in the heck are ya'll doin that?????????????
i'm just gonna have to take some time and learn it.

but usually by the time i get on here read and respond its been 2-3 hrs
then i make myself shut it down til the next day. but i aint learnig how to work it i;m just conversing back and forth,

and if this wasnt on my yellow star line[favorites] i would have a time trying to get on here every day. i only have 2 places that i click on.


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Surfer I believe it is because you are signed in to Peds online and trying to post from an account we are just posting what can be found open forum. You do have an account with peds online or using one right?


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> Surfer I believe it is because you are signed in to Peds online and trying to post from an account we are just posting what can be found open forum. You do have an account with peds online or using one right?


 As per this , Surfer , just bookmark a couple of you favorite pedigrees , then if you have the peds online number of the dog you want to look up just go to the address line and change the end number to the number you want.

The Tacoma Jack I was making reference to was the the Brown dog , not the one you were thinking of , that was to point out where some stuff thaqt ended up AKC came into the gamebred dogs.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

OldDog said:


> As per this , Surfer , just bookmark a couple of you favorite pedigrees , then if you have the peds online number of the dog you want to look up just go to the address line and change the end number to the number you want.
> 
> The Tacoma Jack I was making reference to was the the Brown dog , not the one you were thinking of , that was to point out where some stuff thaqt ended up AKC came into the gamebred dogs.


^^ yup!!!

Hey surfer and anyone else, .. I click the right click then I open (inspect element) Look at the pedigree file number and research it just as Ol dog just mentioned...


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Uhhh tell you what there , don't give me the slightest degree of crap again for what I stated as regards Jeep and the ro.m. , ( you know who you are) and furthermore if you're going to do so then kindly grow a set and do it publicly. 

And when you do be prepared for my direct and unvarnished opinion on Jeep with no punches pulled.................and you won't like it.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

What .???.. not a Fan??? :rofl: You already know~


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> What .???.. not a Fan??? :rofl: You already know~


 Nope , not a fan. Not that there aren't good Jeep dogs through certain dogs , however the people involved worked to bring that about.

The things I would mention are common knowledge in some quarters , but may well fire off a conflict here , attempting to avoid that.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

arms folded... YUP!!  nods head.. .


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

hahaha! ^^^ :rofl:


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

surfer said:


> but i do know some good ones came from this family of dogs,
> d. mayfield is where hank came from jocko's daddy.


 That's Ch Hank............ and hey isn't interesting how Jeep fiends and Fans forget how the folks around Jeep kept ducking Jocko? Not to mention they never went back after Angus..........:snap:

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [390] :: JACKSON'S HANK (4XW)

Then there was .Gr.Ch Hank.......Danny Burton's dog later sold to Patricks and then to Andre Giroux , and then to Capt America as I remember. This is the one behind the Vinagro blood that went to S.A.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [319] :: BURTON'S HANK (5XW)

And Gascon had Gr.Ch. Crazy Hank............

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [2153] :: GASCON'S CRAZY HANK


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I loved that hank breeding that popped out Argo, Jocko, Apple.. etc.. My favorite for the longest time.. Early chavis stuff. Stood by the early JRB heavy on jocko.. it got to washed for my liking. BUT DAMN IF I DON'T STILL LOVE THEM original goodies. 

Not sure if Jocko coulda got that low in weight as jeep got; but I bet they'd coulda met in the middle, wasn't Jocko a stifle dog? I've seen some stuff that leads me to believe he move back to a stifle bust the rearend up and move back up front.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

yea, those 'hank'[jocko's daddy] were back-end specialists,
termite was a foul fighter, a dick dog, or gut dog, he would fight in the mouth,

until you couldnt take it then he dove under and started tearing you apart,
plus, they had finishing ability, when it went down hill, if you didnt 'pick up'

your werent going to................rip


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Not sure if Jocko coulda got that low in weight as jeep got; but I bet they'd coulda met in the middle, wasn't Jocko a stifle dog? I've seen some stuff that leads me to believe he move back to a stifle bust the rearend up and move back up front.


 Oh the match coulda been made , fact is that the Jeep crowd wanted no part of Jocko.

The they were stupid enough to call Angus , they got real lucky on that one when Angus had a kennel accident and Homer got borrowed for that one , Angus would have made mincemeat out of Jeep , Homer didn't have much mouth anyway and had none that night. And notice they didn't come back to try and get on Angus again.

And Homer died of hypovolemic shock , not from any damage Jeep put on him , that's a *fact*.

And since certain Jeep " Fans" done p***ed me off , Jeep wasn't the best dog even in his LITTER , much less the best off Bo or the best Honeybunch ever produced.

Jeep tried to go over the wall against the Weenie dog , not once but TWICE and Weenie pulled him back in both times , Crenshaw talked that dog back in that match and indeed Crenshaw MADE that dog. If Weenie had been brought right and hadn't of run out of gas that one would have ended differently.

Ch Holly was the best out of that litter she won 4 , Charlie was better than Jeep performance wise but quit in his 4th , the other bitch Missy quit on her 3rd outing but somehow got sold before that got around and then came back and won a third one.

Jeep is the most over-rated , over promoted dog ever to come down the pike , and you Jeep Fans don't give me any crap about the Tab dogs , cause the reason the Tab dogs and dogs trhough Gator are good is because of the people who had 'em , an pedigree wise 'cause of Honeybunch , Bo and that streak of Redboy coming through Tab from his dam ( straight from The Kitten) ...........that's what put some bottom back into 'em , NOT freaking Jeep. Same with the dogs that came through Ch Tramp , and he actually got shown 4 times.

Now put that in your damn pipe and smoke it there Jeep fanbois.

EDIT : funny y'all can't grow a set and talk publicly , and don't run off at *me* about the Lowcountry stuff , and don't try to tell me about Turtle , bottom side of that is Otis and Rascal and the man that made that dog turned out to be some not so good things , but he WAS a dogman and he WAS really , really hard on his yard. And don;t me that crap about Danger , he was tripled up on Turtle which means tripled up on the Otis stuff and Rascal/Miss Georgia stuff along with Jeep. And like I said look who had the dog and went out with him.


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Wow... I feel horribly put of my depth here. I'm enjoying the education though.

Olddog, if Jeep wasn't a great dog why are there so many people trying to get a drop if his blood in their dogs? (Just out of curiosity)

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

It will all come katey I actually was able to follow and understand what old dog was saying in regards to jeep I had just read all that this week while I was researching boudreaux's Eli now I have to decide which way I want to go with the research

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I've been reading about Earl Tudor and Joe Covino this week and some of the amazing dogs they had. Pit general was incredible.

I am looking online now for all of the books that everyone has suggested on this thread.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Pknattsr (Jul 15, 2013)

If I remember right I think blind billy was off 2 Tudor dogs and there is some more Tudor farther back in boudreaux's Eli plus I remember seeing some heinzl in there I read heinzl name before on this forum so ill be looking as to see who he was but I did come across pit general and read he was a really good dog sorry if I butchered heinzl's name I think I have it wrong

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Katey said:


> Wow... I feel horribly put of my depth here. I'm enjoying the education though.
> 
> Olddog, if Jeep wasn't a great dog why are there so many people trying to get a drop if his blood in their dogs? (Just out of curiosity)
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 The only fanbois you'll ever run into that are worse will be on firearms forums and that will involve the Glock pistols , the AR platform ( and always a cheap crap one) and the infernal damn Remington 700.

The best Jeep blood down from the dog is all *crosses* , most often with RedBoy or Rascal or Otis type blood , occasionally Eli blood.

And the folks with the good stuff from it were *hard* on their yards , bluntly stated some of 'em culled more dogs before breakfast than some other people ever owned.

While we're at it , to those folks who want to talk up Ch. Ninja as a Jeep dog..........what?Are y'all just bloody gahwdammned BLIND? Show me another Jeep dog that looks like him , the dog was off Chinaman , and looked it and acted it. And Don's other stuff was mostly Rascal stuff with a streak of Healey or straight linebred Rascal stuff , anything he used Jeep in the Jeep stuff was ( again) a CROSS.

The *real* pedigree on Ch. Ninja...........

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [89773] :: *CH BRODT'S NINJA*


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

yes there was some issues, between those camps, old dog, you might know a little 
more than you think............
the crenshaw crowd had whipped one of my mentors mentor, and there was some bad blood, 
when james and tugboat whipped cottingham's cotton a chinaman dog that had went over 3hrs his last time out...cotton/wrangler

then mg had found a way to even it up, he called perry and wanted to borrow 'termite'
to even the score,
so, up in the mountains of the man,[a play on words], when melvin got termite out,
he told perry he wanted perry to handle.

the rest is history, termite a ch. on his way to winning 4 and becoming an ROM

the same fella [rip], when fletcher called then boone called and said fletcher gave him the dog, the numbers were going out the roof,

when we had to run thru the woods carrying 2 dogs, one spent, one ready,
and 52k in an ammo box. and got away,

we knew where or the direction we were headed......TO THE TOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

In my readings I found this Pknat.

I found it quite interesting.

http://www.riospits.com/floyd_boudreaux.htm

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Boudreaux is in a class with very few men..  

Ironically,... I hardscape .. which is stone work  I like the way he carry's himself as well.. We could all learn something from ol timers like him. 

As I always said, I know back then they knew who stole the dogs and where they were or they wouldnt talk of certain stolen dogs popping back up up: 

E. Crenshaw (RIP), Boudreaux, Hammonds, couple more they know the bullshitters out there and a good year of correspondence you will know to. Nope they don't say anything bad about any body, yes they avoid certain people and strains.. some off their own stock  in others hands. 

Tudors got his dogs from Heinzl, and Colby (PRIMARILY there are exceptions) Dibo was Heinzl's and Heinzl bred. Blind Billy is a heinzl dog.. Trahan is hubbard bred corvino dog, corvino bred colby,feeley, shipley dog primarily when you look at his 7gen and further. Fly of Panama who belongd to Tudor was pure colby, as many others. 

Carver got most of his dogs through heinzl, williams, or crenshaw.. of course their are others and he used boudreaux alot eventually but his early dogs were moslty right from those gentlemen. Or Tudor bred heinzl dogs I should say in correction of Heinzl. Uselton was in there as well his dogs go back to Heinzl and Tudor or colby. 

Heinzl didn't like dogmen in general... If its a Tudor bred dog its got heinzl hands, colby hands, feely, hands or all the above. Tudors Black Jack I believe was his own paddy dog untouched by those other fellas except Colby I believe. Believe it was J.P who turned him on to em.. Can't remember exactly.

Jimmy boots and some other tudor bred dogs are some of my favorites..


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Sighhh............I gotta get yet more crap from Fanbois who know exactly Jack Schitt?

Look either bring your crap HERE publicly or don't bother , I redirected your email address to my trash/spam folder.

The basic fact that you started running your yap about how " there was never a Jeep dog named Kitten" is quite amply demonstrative of your basic knowledge of the dogs and the dogfolks involved , get back to me when you finally figure out who the hell I was refering to when I mentioned The Kitten.

And then on to " Jeep would have killed Chinaman , Jocko , Angus etc." , Uh HUH sure thing.............you could have brought Chinaman down to 43 , removed two legs and all his cutters and Jeep couldn't have hung with him on his best day , Jocko would have gone through Jeep like a brownie chewing a salmon , and if he would have done Angus as you state , then why didn't they get back on Angus?

And then you bring up a certain man , claim that what *might* be the best dog that the fraternity has ever seen ability wise is " Jeep Bred" because he sometimes used Jeep crosses ( mostly to Rascal type stuff with some exceptions) and you can't even get HER DAMN PEDIGREE correct , then you tell me she never went beyond 37 minutes whilst you seemingly are blithely unaware the the 37-39 minutes she went was * across FIVE freaking matches and was the AGREGATE TIME"............ ask yourself why I carry this opinion on her ability..........

Her CORRECT pedigree for you............ damned if I see Jeep in there anywhere , yeah I know I'm just old and blind.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [158] :: REBEL'S SHADY LADY (5XW)

Never mind the basic fact that the man involved was notoriously hard on his yard and about his yard , *notoriously hard* , I don't care if he brought a damn chihuahua if he was bringing one , it was going to BE one. And that's regardless of how the man turned out later.

" Never a Jeep dog named " Kitten"................that's just freaking *mind boggling* coming from an "eeegggssspppuuurttt" ( self styled one though you are) on the Jeep dogs , go research exactly where the bottom in the Tab dogs and the Tramp dogs ( among others) came from.

Should you wish to continue this you will do it HERE , not via e-mail like a cur............and in the end with the above from you I have quoted you have proven to be unable to distinguish your own cranium from your own rectal orifice as regards this subject.......... Jeep was an *average* dog at best , he ended up in hands that MADE the dog , instead of a superlative dog MAKING the hands he ended up in.

In closing , in reference to the Floyd dog versus Black Carlos.........

" Ain't nobody watching the Tub

So rubadub-dub ,rubedety de RUB."


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)




----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I am starting to notice Carvers Pistol in a number a peds that seems to be good dogs. (Please set me straight if I'm wrong)

I think Sundance is a good looking dog, I haven't come across his name till now. He seems to have sired a few good dogs too.

I have a question... (It might be a silly one) why are most dogs known for their sire and not their dam?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

there have been some great dams... you'll hear about pure honeybunch breedings, bimbo breedings, and such... 9 of 10 X the dam is most valuable to the breeder himself. The stud is always known because its his seeds... which can be shared more often than the females having litters. Begging the question...........

JMO ... its about two things.. keeping source close and peddling... The male can scatter DNA faster than the female, and you don't wanna waste pregnancies with the female and the wrong dog. Those 3 things are the biggest contributor again JMO


----------



## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Gotta say.. Best thread in a while. Glad you guys are participating...these things could easily be lost and forgotten forever.


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> there have been some great dams... you'll hear about pure honeybunch breedings, bimbo breedings, and such... 9 of 10 X the dam is most valuable to the breeder himself. The stud is always known because its his seeds... which can be shared more often than the females having litters. Begging the question...........
> 
> JMO ... its about two things.. keeping source close and peddling... The male can scatter DNA faster than the female, and you don't wanna waste pregnancies with the female and the wrong dog. Those 3 things are the biggest contributor again JMO


Good post also Just thinking as well is males are offered for stud so it is saling point to boast his doings. As FH said the famales not so much cause you dont do a breeding with yoou own bitch just to give them away. Stud can be done and you have no intrest in what the bitch is putting out.

Again why some dogs like jeep are so famous cause the homer match was a big selling point! My thoughts on why it is the way it is.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

^^ :thumbsup: ^^ YUP!


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

KITTEN..................

OLD DOG, please tell me your jokin..........
she was sittin across from me 10-20-90

when we all had to become track stars.
but please dont tell me about the MOST famous cross in the history of the dogs,
and it includes the dogs your talking about. 

so when you get in that conversation, thats a pretty important part to know.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

loposay X boudreaux... AKA colby X corvino/heinzl

Many many times they always made a good click sometimes they didn't.... I'll leave it at that. Even the E.Crenshaw (colby) stuff was a great click in his day, Carver used more than he ever admitted  you already know. 

I personally thought jeep shoulda been brought backinto the boudreaux stuff or the loposay stuff.. never was much on doubled up jeep stock. 

Bo.. and honey bunch produced some good dogs individually, but at the end of the day lets not kid ourselves.. peddle big peddle long peddle wide .. vs.. if you know you know .. Jeep was well campaigned.. time and money to advertise and travel far and wide... .. Jocko was damn near as campaigned but not as well.

The Jeep vs Homer did a lot for Jeep, when if Angus was up to par well it'd be Angus Jocko (hank/queenie stuff) in the main light. Which is damn close JMO without the extra money in advertising so to speak. Why didn't homer run like he did on them other dogs? Thats really what I always wanted to know..

:rofl:


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

surfer said:


> KITTEN..................
> 
> OLD DOG, please tell me your jokin..........
> she was sittin across from me 10-20-90
> ...


 Which is *exactly* the point Surfer , it's the *cross* that made those dogs , it's not " Jeep"..... and the other socalled " Jeep" dogs that became famous , the vast majority are crosses.

And no I wasn't kidding , and that one pretty much tore it , when someone is going to tell me all about Jeep dogs and is unaware of what crossed in to add the bottom to 'em to such a point that they are unaware of one of the pivotal individuals in bulldog history.............that's a " say WHAT".

And all this transpired because of what I pointed out as regards Jeep and Frisco on the r.o.m./p.o.r. list and the fact that folks should take a gander at how many times a given dog was bred for what the dog produced.

You're entitled to your opinion Surfer , mine is that the specific Jeep/Redboy cross worked because of the Redboy stuff , not because of the Jeep side.

Take Gator , would he have been what he was without that 1/4 Redboy out that came through Tab? And that's but a single example.

Now certain folks had some success linebreeding on Jeep , the dogs out of Shalako for instance , but then there is that line of Rascal and Otis appearing again for the kicker. And the same with a lot of the other dogs off Lug , folks kept on hitting back to the Rascal/Otis stuff. Gr. Ch. Wrangler *was* double bred on Jeep , and Gr. Ch Cheyanne was the same litter so yeah I freely admit that it *can* happen.

The same patterns emerge over and over though , whether it's the Jeep /Redboy stuff or the Jeep/Rascal/Otis stuff.

Look how the dogs got bred that came off of the Jeep to Miss Rage breeding.

Here's the whole point in the end , people fall in "love" with the stories and the idea of a specific dog , then at times they expect the given animal to be " good" just because of what appears in it's pedigree a dog can't read it's own pedigree and know that it's supposed to be a world beater.

Me? Well I don't fall in lust over the idea of a specific dog in a given pedigree , you have to look at the whole picture , whose hands the dogs were in , consistency of production versus amount of times bred and other assorted factors.

Two dogs seem to incite more fanboi types than any others nowadays , I already mentioned 'em both , but again those two are Jeep and Frisco and some folks just seem to lose their freaking minds if you cite realities about either one of them , not that there aren;t some good to great dogs in both bloodlines.

That said " fanboi-ism" and the failure to remain pragmatic can be and often is a negative route because in the end a cur with a fantastic pedigree is a cur. Yeah yeah some curs have *produced* , that's a given fact. But y'all get my point.


----------



## BuckskinBeauty (Aug 14, 2013)

Firehazard what do you think of Woodall's Weird Jack? Do you know much about him?


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I think of him as a crenshaw dog.. not E.Crenshaw either.. but not jeep bred JMO

Jeep, rascal, carver, boudreaux ... werdo was dble jeep and tripp'd up on honeybunch.. 

overall weird jack to me looks like early boudreaux cotton crosses ... which kinda makes sense... same genetic process fast forward in time.

Feel the same bout him.. should be taken into boudreaux stuff as an exclusive out for a program centered around boudreaux. 

WHY>??? Jeep was half boudreaux, rascal all boudreaux 1/4shot of carvers rascal fitzwater stuff.. so in all the whole ped weird jack is more boudreaux than anything else. 65% if not more boudreaux running through that dog. If you have the 7 gen of your dog see how much is represented by boudreaux, it should stand out. 

I heard he carries a HA gene.. then again, I've heard that about most of the jeep stock out there. Jocko come up with alot of HA dogs too, just hardly hear about em, its just part of the territory. I'd go boudreaux with it.. and stay with that. Enough X dna in that to turn up more than one good dog into a good boudreaux gyp.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

BuckskinBeauty said:


> Firehazard what do you think of Woodall's Weird Jack? Do you know much about him?


 You asked Fh , but along with Tab , Tramp , Lug and a couple of others Weird Jack is the dog to go through if you want the Jeep stuff , linebred Jeep that produced , and did so when bred back to linebred Jeep or bred out , take a look at what he produced bred over Boudreaux Ch.Litte Girl ( heavy Maverick with a Boomerang out)...........which all goes back to much the same place it started at in the first place........


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Yes sir! ^^ thats what Im hinting at  lil blk girl !!! Seems like it just clicks going back into Boudreaux better than any X but the loposay or redboy.. which makes sense .. one way or the other as he was crossed and well loposay is mostly colby with OF outs, just like redboy.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [136942] :: WOODALL'S WEIRD JACK


----------



## BuckskinBeauty (Aug 14, 2013)

That's funny because if I breed my Elly girl, I was thinking of breeding to a heavy Boudreaux dog. No HA traits here, the people I got her from would cull that shit fast.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Know something? I still find it mind boggling that someone who thinks they know the Jeep dogs can not know who the word Kitten is in reference to and think it makes reference to a freaking DOG , for crying out loud there are whole damn yards based of her stuff. 

Is this what the bulldog world has come to , can folks REALLY be unaware of one of the pivotal breeders of our times? I mean REALLY? 

Since you berks are going to go around the damn spam filter I'll embarass the hell out of you........ 

Wherever you see the breeder's name on a Red Boy dog and it says * M A R L O W E* , that's Kitten. 

Now you look where her stuff turns up and in who else's yards , y'all are a buncha throwed off damn idiots with approximate intelligence of a freaking six day dead channel cat drying in the sun. 

Keeerist on a broken crutch.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

all i was saying was if you dont know who 'kitten' is the you dont know about the jeep dogs that made a name for themselves, 
i never was that high on the jeep stuff, but a friend from back in the dat had a good one off 'bo'

his name was 'outlaw' 
ring a bell?
7xw .... 7 DOA'S

he was a hel off a dog, i think ricky jones ended up with him,
if you knew who ricky was, you know he paid LARGE for outlaw.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

again.. yes sir.. : ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [189] :: (HARGROVE'S) HOPPER'S OUTLAW

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=429283
THis is my dog Bosco ^^^ the closest thing to a jeep dog I'll own.. I lost my halls boudreaux bred dog Hoagie to cancer and I lost the chance to double down on him through his daughter then take the best bitch to Bosco. .. So now I work em and give em good attention, but damn if he don't fit into what Im preparing for nor what I have. IMO a pure redboy or nebbletts bitch would be best; good boudreaux dog would be the other.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

surfer said:


> all i was saying was if you dont know who 'kitten' is the you dont know about the jeep dogs that made a name for themselves,
> i never was that high on the jeep stuff, but a friend from back in the dat had a good one off 'bo'
> 
> his name was 'outlaw'
> ...


 Best dog off Bo , period. Insofar as it goes Surfer , if they didn't know who I was refering to when I mentioned Kitten they aren;t gonna know much about the Rebel , keep in mind they already tried to tell me Shady Lady was a Jeep dog.

They also don't understand that the Redboy stuff got crossed into the Jeep stuff because there were questions in some folks minds about 'em having enough bottom to 'em.......but then these clowns obviously din't know what I meant by the word bottom either.

I'm still flabbergasted about the Kitten thing , for crying out loud she's a household name in bulldog circles.

A couple from Outlaw to Rebels Prissy ended up with Steve and Co. , and then of course some folks talked crap about Bandit , but he produced and is still a good route back to Rascal and Stompanato.

And that " friend" you're talking about is a no buls*** guy , what he says you can take to the bank.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

yes, you could but as time goes by, things change, but up until the mid 90's
he was a top player,

was with him many, many times, him being an ex-marine, and the camp that drug me along, was a marine, and we were all within 30 minutes of jacksonville.

there was a few good camps from there, carolina kennels [termite], mkr/war eagle
[spanky, outlaw, & rufus], and 2shane kennels[gr.ch.slider],

plus one of the best breeders of the red boy dogs, a.robinson and he put to many good ones out there to mention


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I fixed the link... my bad .. ^^ SO true.. You two guys hit the nail on the head and from direct knowledge not hearsay or studying works like myself, .. I love it. :clap:

BOSCO: ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [429283] :: CC'S DIRTY BOMB

More bo and honeybunch than jeep ^^^^ doubled up on top of 2 proven boudreax dogs. ...


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> I fixed the link... my bad .. ^^ SO true.. You two guys hit the nail on the head and from direct knowledge not hearsay or studying works like myself, .. I love it. :clap:
> 
> BOSCO: ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [429283] :: CC'S DIRTY BOMB
> 
> More bo and honeybunch than jeep ^^^^ doubled up on top of 2 proven boudreax dogs. ...


 And again you will notice Otis , the of Course Gr. Ch. Snake , Sam Cates stuff for for a kicker , and the Morgan stuff behind Jack II leads to the Midnight Cowboy dogs from a different direction than the Maverick stuff ( which goes through Gr. Ch Herman , the Tana stuff takes you to the old E.Crenshaw stuff.

Ideal dog to take to a linebred Skull bitch.


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I found this interview... It has me wondering though... Would a HA trait follow through a bloodline? Mountain Man mentions Zebo, and he sounds incredible, but would his blood line also be HA or do you think that there was something not right in his head that made him a maneater?

http://www.grandchamp.co.za/2012/07/old-mountain-man-lester-hughes.html?m=1

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Absolutely Ol dog!! absolutely...

@ Katey!!! GREAT POST! Reads like that always refreshing.. 
I kinda think managment is what made zebo the was he was... JMO He was fine with some people.

OH! and looky here if this don't beg the question I just asked on Jeep vs Homer and why homer didn't run like he normally did....



> Ch. Homer ROM, is a well known dog from a well known dog man, Mountain Man. Ch. Homer ROM won a total of 9, although some say 10. Not all were recorded. He never had to show much gameness as he bit through all of his opponents (M.M. L.H.)


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks FH, I have been find a few good sites with interviews. The image the media paints of dogmen is FAR from the image I get from the interviews.

I know there are the thugs and gangstas in it now for a quick buck but looking at some of the dogs that are being rescued, they dot really look like the old school dogs of the 70's or earlier.

I quite liked the site that that interview came from, they have a picture and history of the dogs mentioned in the interview.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Katey said:


> Thanks FH, I have been find a few good sites with interviews. The image the media paints of dogmen is FAR from the image I get from the interviews.
> 
> I know there are the thugs and gangstas in it now for a quick buck but looking at some of the dogs that are being rescued, they dot really look like the old school dogs of the 70's or earlier.
> 
> ...


 The dogs coming through " rescues" and the like don't even look like the *real* dogs of TODAY.

Me , well I don't much care for the Zebo stuff for a different reason , on average most Zebo dogs lack air.


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> OH! and looky here if this don't beg the question I just asked on Jeep vs Homer and why homer didn't run like he normally did....


 Homer was a substitute dog , the match was originally set with Angus , Homer didn't have a full keep if any at all on him.

And of course there were rumors floating about as to other possibilities.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

ONLINE PEDIGREES - Access Denied

put the arrow on 'online pedigrees' and click and it will come up.

old dog, what blood you runnin? cause when i got them bred like this,
i got all the air i need. and thats proven.....

and have the finishing ability, just sayin that they are some good lonzo[zebo]
bred dogs out there.

plus i forgot j. lancaster[lancasters' snake] are from the same town, he's rip now


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

surfer said:


> ONLINE PEDIGREES - Access Denied
> 
> put the arrow on 'online pedigrees' and click and it will come up.
> 
> ...


 Sure you might have , but I've seen enough that lacked air to note it being a general syndrome , and of course there are some good ones , but I don't personally feel they are as high percentage as certain other strains.

And Lonzo knew exactly how to put them together. Couldn't see teh ped you put up but did it come through Panther?

And Zebo went over 2 hours against the Greaser dog , may be a regional thing but the ones we saw in the west lacked air for the most part.

As I remember Snake was Vindicator to rosie , brother sister breeding wasn't it?

And Colopy had some good ones. Crossed into Patricks blood it didn't seem to work so well ( that came through Arizona Goldie and got bred to some Fitch dogs that ended up west , should have been good over the Kingfish stuff but wasn't that good though of course that same cross produced the Diamond Jim dog that made Ch.) , can't argue with the results that Clemmons or Boudreaux got using it as an out , worked well through Spider and Sea Train too.

Seems like it was good bred into Midnight Cowboy type blood or Boudreaux blood , Eli type dogs in general.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [341651] :: A & J'S PATCHES
hur ya go


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [341651] :: A & J'S PATCHES
> hur ya go


 I knew Panther would be in there , and I kind figured there would be a Red Boy cross on it.

50/50 like that , I'm not real surprised Surfer got some good results.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

couldnt help it, even tho i was taught as a child not to brag.

panther, angus[panthers' son], jilly buck, miss panther, ****** toby, and

if any one knows about this line, then you know '********' was a FREAK

loca, dixie, queenie, mona, and bear a family of good 'lonzo'[zebo] dogs.

but i do have to agreewith you on zebos' % it wasnt to good, because
80% of his pups went to 'pet' bull owners.

remember when they bred him to honeybunch?
not one turned out, all pets.........

then when panther came about, his first 3 litters went to japan,
for LARGE gold. a nice big house was built on a nice lot.

one more breeding, and i'll be set for 15yrs.

but to tell the truth, its probly like any line, if its not maintained,
it only takes a couple of generations to get 'soft'

plus, some of the ones that got their hands on the good ones,
were less than desirable indaviduals, but you know where i'm at and where panther came from, now its just a matter of cleaning up.

but we will get back on the right track again, a certain amount of this blood has been 'put up' for us to use when we get ready.

but those, arent going anywhere, well, only one, and i already promised him to 
somebody, the rest get divided up within the family


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Homer was a substitute dog , the match was originally set with Angus , Homer didn't have a full keep if any at all on him.
> 
> And of course there were rumors floating about as to other possibilities.


Olddog I though that I had read too that Homer was a sub, but I wasn't sure if I was mistaken.

How do you mean Zebo dogs lack air?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Katey said:


> Olddog I though that I had read too that Homer was a sub, but I wasn't sure if I was mistaken.
> 
> How do you mean Zebo dogs lack air?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Lack of longterm wind , here's an analogy , you've seen boxing matches where along in the mid to later rounds one guy was mouthbreathing and sucking wind? Same thing.

Now I'm going to point out something here , sure there are many "family bred" dogs that are/were great dogs , but there is VERY good reason behind the term " battle cross"......we'll use what Surfer just put up as an example , that's gonna have ( this is roughly speaking) , air , bottom and grit from the Red Boy side and a good chance of enormous destroyer type mouth and right out of the gate jump from the Panther side.

The key is the "click" , always has been , certain types of blood "click" with most anything , Alligator , Redboy , certain Boudreaux click with just about anything you breed them across.

Patricks can do so with most things , same with the right Chinaman or Spike stuff , certain Wildside strains and many others that could be mentioned.

And here's another factor , some of the opinions that are formed are to a degree *regional* , certain areas you'll run into certain strains that are predominant in those areas , of course this is a percentage thing since other blood *ALWAYS* filters in and Good is GOOD PERIOD , but those regional differences can be a factor.

Example , in Mexico , Socal etc you'll see lot's and lots of stuff going back to Little gator , the Ed Crenshaw dogs etc , in the Southeast you'll see lots and lots of Redboy and crosses thereof , that's a rough diametric but does hold true quite a bit.

And folks will often run off about specific bloodlines being completely worthless , ME well you notice that I don't much cotton to straight Jeep or the Zebo dogs , BUT ya think I'm brain dead enough to deny the good ones?

Here I'll provide an example , folks often run down the Colby dogs , but look at what this dog produced when bred to this bitch , note the straight up Colby top side on the bitch , of course into Indian Sonny and Patricks stuff on the bottom side.

Lotsa folks though Wiseman was gonna ruin that with that streak of Colby , result of that cross?

B.i.V.'s Ch. Angel , that dog beat Ch. Merle for #4 , collected the forfeit from Gr. Ch Gabe on #5 ,VBK's Ch. Red ( 4) , BMW's Ch. Maya , the Negrita bitch that produced up a storm for VBK and won 2 , Doc Rojas's Chairo ( 2) the sisco dog etc.

Out of a shortwinded bitch that lacked ability and amounted to a Colby/Corvino/Patricks cross ( the Indian's first dog Altiere's Tim is was a Corvino dog.

Now of course what he produced out of the Annie bitch , which was Rascal/Redboy/ Jeep , that's the stuff of legend.

Point being here that Dolly Varden got written off by some 'cause of that Colby topside............NEVER say " never". Not ever.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [246] :: *RANCHERITA'S LITTLE GATOR**

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [12200] :: RANCHERITA'S DOLLY VARDEN*


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:goodpost: ^^^ :cheers:


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

old dog,
you know to much, for me not to know who you are, 
you spout off to much knowledge to just be another 'chump' with a dog!!!!!!!!!!

but, i'm no fool either, that type of knowledge dosent come in

1 yr
3yrs
5yrs 
10yrs
15yrs
20yrs
25yrs
30yrs, am i starting to get close.......................

personally, when i was being drug around, like a GREEN NEWBIE,
it wouldnt have matter to me what bloodline you liked,

if we were at an event, and i met you, i would get in your back pocket,
and followed you around like a lost puppy, just so i could take in all the 
knowledge you were willing to share....................

like i said before, we had
mkr, harry h.
2shane
j. lancaster
c.mims
a. brewer
t.g.
the harris'[both sets]
millbusters
otter
big mike[ch red man]
v. jackson
k. bradshaw
a. robinson
my gosh i'm sure i'm leaving some out.

but know you can see where i was at........

but the one camp i was with
carolina kennels [termite] perry p. and ralph c.

but i paid attention, and still do, after 30yrs, i still like talkin dogs.............


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

OldDog said:


> Lack of longterm wind , here's an analogy , you've seen boxing matches where along in the mid to later rounds one guy was mouthbreathing and sucking wind? Same thing.
> 
> Now I'm going to point out something here , sure there are many "family bred" dogs that are/were great dogs , but there is VERY good reason behind the term " battle cross"......we'll use what Surfer just put up as an example , that's gonna have ( this is roughly speaking) , air , bottom and grit from the Red Boy side and a good chance of enormous destroyer type mouth and right out of the gate jump from the Panther side.
> 
> ...


*

Fantastic read old dog!*


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Here's an old favorite of mine I wish was in the hands of a redboy breeder today... untainted by jeep.. I can only imagine this with the zebo4:1 alligator out what she'd be like going into say.. Bean or thunder junior..









ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [200192] :: GOING HARD'S PRETTY MAMA


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Here's an old favorite of mine I wish was in the hands of a redboy breeder today... untainted by jeep.. I can only imagine this with the zebo4:1 alligator out what she'd be like going into say.. Bean or thunder junior..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OFRN and Colby again...right on thru Redboy, who some consider OFRN


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

fire, you found us again..........
i just cant say anything, but you just dont know how close you are..........

not all of these were registered any way, but, look at 'miss kitty'
is bred,see how this comes together,

but it took many, many years of building a bridge, now the bridge has been built,
just have to cross it, thats the next step, its kind of scary knowing that this time its
gonna depend on me making it happen.

patience,................

i've heard, if god wanted me to have patience, 
he would of made me a doctor.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

LOL ^^^ thats a good one.. Man I think no man has better patience than the best (plural) dog men... Look where your at  Yeah i sure like that dog with that smidge of lonzo fractioned by alligator JMO I think a pure redboy needs to be bred by race horse down at catchdog. Lets get some of that goin in the states. .> OH! them lonzo alligator dogs that preceded that.. were they crazy monsters unhandleable ? someone told me that it was tried and I just happen to find it. Do you know? Also. in ^^^ her litter I like the redboy honeybunch dog with jeep and otis to wash each other out and honey bunch to clean it up.


----------



## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

yea brah, as far as those lonzo dogs, when zebo was up in the mountains, he ripped the shirt off of his owner [you know who]. just because he was done playing but zebo 
wasnt.

those dogs are SO much wanting just human contact, that it can go to the extreme
and they might get mad like a spoiled young'n when you quit paying attention to them.

they are the worst for tearing stuff up eg. dog houses, water bowls, anything that they can get their teeth on.

but on the other hand, they are the most affectionate bloodline out there, all
they want is for you to touch them


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

surfer said:


> yea brah, as far as those lonzo dogs, when zebo was up in the mountains, he ripped the shirt off of his owner [you know who]. just because he was done playing but zebo
> wasnt.
> 
> those dogs are SO much wanting just human contact, that it can go to the extreme
> ...


 Yeah , they been known to eat all sorts of things , a taste for leather objects too.And more than one person has heard that "popping jaws" story straight from the horse's mouth.

On another point. McCoy , you've gotta go pretty far back but you'll find dogs that are in most *every* pedigree , dogs like Imported Rafferty , the Bob Tail Bitch , Cockney Charlies " Pilot" etc.........


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Paddy and Pilot .. yup ^^ in almost every dog.. Bob Tail, Gas house.. 

@ surfer .. hahaha! lil wachutu's!! (ace ventura 2)


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

I would think you'd have to be talking to some very Old Families to get to the first dog, pre registry days...was it a male or female?, hmm Unless you subscribe to the theory that they were in existence since the beginning...evolving very little into what we know them to be today.


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

well the question was.. One dog that is in all pedigrees.. those are the foundation to the majority of whats here today. Inbred and inbred and linebred .. .. Thats why on that 2012 DNA test the vets were baffled .. they all share the same ancestors at one point off the boat and or just before


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> well the question was.. One dog that is in all pedigrees.. those are the foundation to the majority of whats here today. Inbred and inbred and linebred .. .. Thats why on that 2012 DNA test the vets were baffled .. they all share the same ancestors at one point off the boat and or just before


 My point was that this breed goes back a lot further than any paper. The credit will probably never be given to the correct person or family. "Is there one dog that can be credited for the creation of the breed as a whole?"....McCoy has a good question. BTW, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop? LOL


----------



## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Saint Francis said:


> My point was that this breed goes back a lot further than any paper. The credit will probably never be given to the correct person or family. "Is there one dog that can be credited for the creation of the breed as a whole?"....McCoy has a good question. BTW, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop? LOL


 Sure , that goes almost without saying , but here's the thing , you'll *never* trace it to one family or one given strain/bloodline.

If you examine the breeding history of Terriers in general you'll find the same thing , just about every different locale in the Olde Countries had a different sort of terrier , it's much the same with the Bull-n-Terrier crosses. The parallel can be further extended , if for instance you take a look at Cyril Breay within the Patterdales , he cared not a whit how the dog looked or what the pedigree was , he looked at performance in the hunting field and the Earths *first*. So did the men who bred these dogs in Darlaston , Walsall , Cradley Heath , Dublin , Cork and Kerry , the Scots locales such as Glasgow and Edinborough.

What we possess nowadays is the amalgamated result of Colby and others buying these dogs right off the boat and importing others and then breeding them together based upon performance capabilities rather than on the individual bloodlines as they previously existed in the Olde Countries.

Which is of course why many of the pedigrees peter out to " unknown" once you get back past the 1880s-70s.

Examples............ and note that you can find the Hutton dogs behind some of the Dublin Reds that folks label as " Irish Staffs" , there is also speculation that they may be behind the Crotty stuff behind the Rickey B dogs ( Psycho being the most well known)......and phenotype wise those dogs look like the modern Gamebred APBT. They don't look like the BKC Staffy Bulls in phenotype.

It also seems that a good case can be made that the phenotype of the Staffy Bull that gained kennel club recognition over there got such because the folks from Cradley Heath and the Black Countries were the ones with the political power in canine circles of that time rather than folks from other locales and Ireland..............who really knows.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [5650] :: *COLBY'S PINCHER (24XW) **

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=65472

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [12599] :: CHARLIE LLOYD'S PADDY

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [12598] :: CHARLIE LLOYD'S PILOT

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [90134] :: CON FEELEY'S OLD JESSIE

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [16128] :: COLBY'S GALTIE*


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Great post.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

OldDog said:


> Sure , that goes almost without saying , but here's the thing , you'll *never* trace it to one family or one given strain/bloodline.
> 
> If you examine the breeding history of Terriers in general you'll find the same thing , just about every different locale in the Olde Countries had a different sort of terrier , it's much the same with the Bull-n-Terrier crosses. The parallel can be further extended , if for instance you take a look at Cyril Breay within the Patterdales , he cared not a whit how the dog looked or what the pedigree was , he looked at performance in the hunting field and the Earths *first*. So did the men who bred these dogs in Darlaston , Walsall , Cradley Heath , Dublin , Cork and Kerry , the Scots locales such as Glasgow and Edinborough.
> 
> ...


*

Excellent. And one has to wonder about the ancient paintings, etc. depicting much of the same phenotype as what we are familiar with as well. The history does have its share of murky waters. Good post.*


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I came across this ped today for the first time. (Not surprised)

Online Pedigrees :: :: FERGUSON'S CENTIPEDE :: [1237]

What is the general opinion on this dog? Did he contribute at all?


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

St. Francis.. YUP! what Oldog laid down is like unspoken common sense, if you've done the digging.... Figured it went without being said. I went on the spill of them all being connected when I was new to GPB myself. Hinks pulled the show bred bull terrier together as propaganda breed to get everyone off of bull terriers early on.. it didn't work as planned. Colby even mentions this in the book. Cammett's Flash was SBT, AST, and APBT registered as all 3!!!!! He was of course a colby bred dog. Bull terriers back then were like AST now... workin guys wouldnt touch em, but some insisted they could work and stuck with it till they did. It was said that tudors rung one in, I used to know the dog and ped and he does look very old school game bull terrier like.

The pics, >>> LOL<<< of course, pic is worth 1000 words... Even when they used the term bull terrier like the masses use pit bull today for the game bull terrier the men called them bulldogs. Colby Armitage for example.. had Game Bull Terriers advertised but common tongue usuage they're bulldogs. When asked why... "cause thats what they are"

These are the men right off the boat with dogs right off the boat.. before paper doggy politics told the masses what breed of dog they have. I don't believe its murky at all, just the part the humans control which is what humans call the dog according to geographic region and purpose. SLang is slang ... for a piece of time they're all staffordshires even the ones registered as APBT because staffordshires described all the bulldogs from england even the one that went to ireland. That died out with function, lack there of, and all the politics in between. 

centipede and peter are in a good amount of OFRN stuff


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Centipede, Braddock, and Peter... should be in all of em; and Bigboy in Clouse end of it you will find two of those he was Peter X Braddock (stock wise)..


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

Firehazard said:


> St. Francis.. YUP! what Oldog laid down is like unspoken common sense, if you've done the digging.... Figured it went without being said. I went on the spill of them all being connected when I was new to GPB myself. Hinks pulled the show bred bull terrier together as propaganda breed to get everyone off of bull terriers early on.. it didn't work as planned. Colby even mentions this in the book. Cammett's Flash was SBT, AST, and APBT registered as all 3!!!!! He was of course a colby bred dog. Bull terriers back then were like AST now... workin guys wouldnt touch em, but some insisted they could work and stuck with it till they did. It was said that tudors rung one in, I used to know the dog and ped and he does look very old school game bull terrier like.
> 
> The pics, >>> LOL<<< of course, pic is worth 1000 words... Even when they used the term bull terrier like the masses use pit bull today for the game bull terrier the men called them bulldogs. Colby Armitage for example.. had Game Bull Terriers advertised but common tongue usuage they're bulldogs. When asked why... "cause thats what they are"
> 
> ...


Thanks for this FH, I have been trying to figure out where Bull Terriers fit into all of this. I have been tempted at times to shorten APBT down to Bull Terrier rather than Pit Bull because of the negative public image.

I read a thing today written by R Stratton about Centipede and how the only way they could work him was if they let him be a house dog for a little bit after his workout and run down. I thought was funny, because in the same piece Stratton talked about what a formidable opponent he was.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

back then .. the best pit dogs were often house dogs and nanny dogs..


----------



## Katey (Aug 5, 2013)

I think that's incredible.

I have yet to come across another breed of dog who is so incredibly different in their behavior to humans and animals.

I think that makes the selective breeding of these dogs over hundreds of years even more mind blowing

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

thats why whether coward or brave .. people admire the bulldog in many times they make the bravest man look cowardly.. why we attest to be game  and detest to be a cur........

we admire them because they have phenomenal ability and they are game.......


----------



## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks.. Fitz.. is Gold. Named him Fitzwater for obvious reasons especially when you look at common denominator ancestor  in his ped. He threw one son bred back to his dam here that is going to look just like Fitzwaters' Goldie and to the T. You know I like bringin them old goodies out of hiding.


----------

