# But he/ she came from horrible breeders I couldnt leave him ... is it helping ?



## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Now this is directed at noone and just looking for opinions from both sides really , this is one of those things that can be looked at from either side. 
Lately it seems like we hear alot of people talk about how horrible it was when they picked up there pups, the puppy was sick or there were unsanitary conditions they lived in or the owners just didnt care for there dogs or was a puppy mill and they just felt like they couldnt leave the puppy there they had to save it. Now as honerable as that is you have to step back and wonder are you really helping ? Or if you save that 1 dog making a sale for that breeder they think hey we moved those dogs out quick lets do another breeding, and another and another so saving that one dog arent you really just making room for more? 
I think { IMO} people these days are so set in "helping" a dog they may go into things like that blindly I think and then wonder why there new pup is so sick and why there pup has parvo and other horrible things wrong , or grow older and have temperment issues cause they never took the proper time to research the parents and breeder and such , can lead to alot of heart ache. 
Im not judging anyone at all trust me I got my 1st girl from a not so reputable breeder who had similar living conditions mentioned above its deff a learning curve we had. But what is everyones thoughts , are you actually helping the situation for these dogs or just making room for more problems?
{ also not talking about rescuing from a reputable shelter ,this is just aimed for those BYB / puppy mill / unsanitary situations}


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

IMO When a person finds a puppy in this situation, they should contact the proper authorities. Most states have laws about these things. If there are none, then a quick call to a few local news stations would do as well. I wouldn't purchase the puppy. I would wait until it went through the system and if it's healthy enough to adopt out, then I would adopt it. Again, just my opinion.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

Imo these people only see supply amd demand, as long as thete is buyers no matter why you bought, they will continue to produce. So as Ecko said contact the authorities do NOT buy the pup your only causing futher heartache for future pups. Jmo


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## texasgame (Oct 4, 2011)

this is a very valid argument one i like, i do breed my dogs they r working animals either on ranches or for hogs they have been used for many different reasons i am very careful how i breed and its usually just once a year if i do i tend to skip a few heats for its difficult to sell these dogs and im not in it to sell them, i usually end up with one or two keeping for quite some time until they have been trained and then theyh go out but thats the thing i have the means and property to keep extra pups the reason i have to most of the time is because owners have to sighn a contract when they get my pups it scares alot of the bad buyers off i will not allow my dogs to be bred once they have been sold unless they get bred back into something on my yard and thats it i know where every dog i have produced is whether it is a family pet or a working pet, i love this breed and i will have a pitbull in my life until they lay me down. thts my side of the argument lol


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## Nubwagon (May 9, 2011)

I still don't understand why there isn't a nationwide ban on puppy mills. A dog is not a product!!


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

EckoMac said:


> IMO When a person finds a puppy in this situation, they should contact the proper authorities. Most states have laws about these things. If there are none, then a quick call to a few local news stations would do as well. I wouldn't purchase the puppy. I would wait until it went through the system and if it's healthy enough to adopt out, then I would adopt it. Again, just my opinion.


:goodpost::goodpost: totally agree

BTW when I went to post that :goodpost: I almost posted :stupid: they switched the sign guys in the smilie box here lol I had to click "more" to get that one now LOLOL.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

To me, no one is helping anything if they aren't educated enough to not only handle the pup or dogs medical/health situations but also the dog itself. Majority of these dogs that are being "saved" i hardly consider an APBT, many mixed/unknown as these dogs are not coming from a good source of breeding.

So many have to ask themselves if they fully understand what situation they are bringing on to themselves. Unknown history of breeding, unknown medical/health potential issues throughout that pups life, unknown temperament, etc.. The list goes on and IMO very few out there are equipped enough to handle those type of dogs both emotionally, physically and in other ways such as training.. That sweet pup can turn out highly DA, highly HA, highly reactive, high drive or high energy and the list can go on from what is considered "norm" for the breed to genetic disasters..

As honorable as it is to save a dogs life i would say 95% of all that do shouldn't. For that matter i'd also say that a fairly "large" percentage of those that own bulldogs shouldn't own them either.. No where near as "large" as most breeders breeding "true" know what they have and wont just pass their pups down to any fool with cash however it does happen from time to time, and its 50-50 whether those fools with them dogs are going to further breed and continue the problem of people owning these fine hounds without a clue as to what they are feeding.

Anyway, as popular as it is now in days to save these "pet bulls" everyone wants one.. All in how you raise them and their pitty witties wont hurt a fly right? ...Is what it is, owning a dog is a trend and leading these trends are small designer dogs and "Pet Bulls", unknown "pit bull type dogs" and Bully/"Bully type dogs".. They look cool man, real tough with these genetic disasters running around..

For those that have had their hands in these dogs, its amusing.. Just take your game dog or bulldog out and these very same people will say your dog is underweight, mixed or some other random breed.. No way thats a bulldog man!

Oh and these fools that pay to take these pups off BYB's thinking they are "saving"... Don't get me started, just as part of the problem as any.. Might have the heart in the right place but lack utterly common sense.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> To me, no one is helping anything if they aren't educated enough to not only handle the pup or dogs medical/health situations but also the dog itself. Majority of these dogs that are being "saved" i hardly consider an APBT, many mixed/unknown as these dogs are not coming from a good source of breeding.
> 
> So many have to ask themselves if they fully understand what situation they are bringing on to themselves. Unknown history of breeding, unknown medical/health potential issues throughout that pups life, unknown temperament, etc.. The list goes on and IMO very few out there are equipped enough to handle those type of dogs both emotionally, physically and in other ways such as training.. That sweet pup can turn out highly DA, highly HA, highly reactive, high drive or high energy and the list can go on from what is considered "norm" for the breed to genetic disasters..
> 
> ...


:goodpost:
and thats a big thing too , I hear that all the time "its how you raise them", when in actual fact it really isnt. Sure environmental issues can effect there personality to a point but gentics is always going to play the biggest part, the part where HA or DA comes into play. Adopting or "saving" a dog from a rescue a reputable rescue where they atleast temperment test and medically check the dog out is atleast IMO a better option then getting from this person who cares nothing about the dog and probably wouldnt notice if there own dogs got into a fight let alone check temperments and traits the parents carry. Which brings Eckos point back up report them and then if the shelter sees fit to adopt them out do so through them.{ not saying shelter dogs cant pop up with problems , only so much they can tell with pups before they have even reached maturity, but they do a bit more then the puppy miller would}


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

why not adopt a dog from a rescue instead? at a rescue youre not sure of line etc but it comes:

spay neut
usually temperment tested
usually vet checked
usually put utd on shots
usually a place to return dog if it doesnt work out.

byb = you pay money to get ...well


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## Gimbler (Jan 29, 2010)

No, it's not helping. I had a friend a few years back who bought a dog from a PET STORE! When I gave her stuff about supporting a puppy mill she tried to justify it as she was "saving" a puppy mill puppy. More like "perpetuating"!

I realize that there are some very competent people on this site who work their dogs and breed them for certain characteristics and I don't object to people with a clear goal and understanding of the breed producing a litter with a purpose. But I do object STRONGLY to anyone who breeds for "fun and profit" rather than the betterment of the breed.

My dogs are pets. Every dog I've ever owned was a pet and was adopted from a rescue/shelter/pound. There are too many perfectly good dogs being put down every day because of careless irresponsible breeders and owners. And again, I know this is a pitbull forum and you all are breed fans. I got Maggie, my staffie/pit whatever she is cause she was a dog I connected with at the shelter. But, my breed of choice was and still is Rhodesian Ridgebacks. I don't currently have one cause I couldn't find one within a twelve hour drive after our RR passed away and we had room for another dog or two. And even though I really, really wanted another Ridgeback I couldn't justify buying a puppy (to be a house pet) from a breeder and condemning another shelter dog to death.

When you pay a backyard breeder for a puppy it doesn't matter what your personal reasons or justifications are - your money is just as green as any fools and you just encouraged them to keep breeding.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I think its hurting as well, but to reporting the breeder, do you think anything would realistically happen? especially if they have been doing it for a while already, I am sure they would maybe get a ticket but would they be stopped? I don't have experience to know, but it seems like they would be able to correct the situation short term to get the heat off them, then continue to profit.


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## Diggit (Jan 24, 2011)

IMO, if you find a pup in a bad situation you should not buy it.

above everything else every puppy no matter where it comes from should be updated on vacc's and wormings and also be healthy otherwise....

I would also like the to see a pup already socialized, pups should be ready for the new home so the owners are not "behind" of the process....


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

First I would like to say that yes I got Izzo from one of these situations , she also had parvo and so did the rest of her litter .. I didnt pay for them .. but still ... I am a animal lover in general and while I wouldnt pay for a puppy from a BYB but a do is a dog .. you can have pedigreed dog with a horrible temperament.. My mom had a AKC GSD that ended up attacking a kid next door out of nowhere .. I love me dog and while I wish she had papers and I could show her I cant and OH WELL .. Also I agree that if you see a litter of puppies that are in horrible conditions you should conatact a NO KILL shelter of some kind .. so that the breeder can no longer make a profit , and the animals in the mill can be well taken care of and loved like deserve .. I worked in a shelter for a long time and let me tell you there are plenty of people here in Michigan that turn people in .. I have taking litters out of the homes myself ..



KMdogs said:


> To me, no one is helping anything if they aren't educated enough to not only handle the pup or dogs medical/health situations but also the dog itself. Majority of these dogs that are being "saved" i hardly consider an APBT, many mixed/unknown as these dogs are not coming from a good source of breeding.
> 
> So many have to ask themselves if they fully understand what situation they are bringing on to themselves. Unknown history of breeding, unknown medical/health potential issues throughout that pups life, unknown temperament, etc.. The list goes on and IMO very few out there are equipped enough to handle those type of dogs both emotionally, physically and in other ways such as training.. That sweet pup can turn out highly DA, highly HA, highly reactive, high drive or high energy and the list can go on from what is considered "norm" for the breed to genetic disasters..
> 
> ...


2. I have to say K.M you are very opinionated for someone who owns ban dogs .. for someone who doesnt even own a true apbt you have alot of rude remarks to people who dont either .. I find it also interesting that you find people "with these dogs Amusing" I happen too own two .. and yes I know about the health problems and let you rest assured I am more then fully aware of these concerns .. I know now, knew and honestly didnt care when I saw Izzo .. and as a Fool I do have to say that no i didnt think I was SAVING MY MONEY but I did know I was saving a life .. and like I said I didnt pay for Izzo or Weiser .. Nor do I think that game-bred dogs are underweight , mixed with anything or some other random breed .. I think they are well built game bred APBT's .. I do have to say that I find you and your remarks offensive in every way .. Just because my dog came from circumstances that were questionable does not mean that 1. I didnt report the POS that bred her the day I took her litter home 2. I didnt know that it was probably going to be sleepless nights and a emptying of my savings to save them 3. if it came down too it and there were health problems I would have to put them down .. but atleast I gave them a chance at life .. atleast I have taken the precautions needed .. My dogs are well taken care of thank you and to be honest I think you are WAY more opinionated then any scatterbred or possible mix breed pitbull or "petbull" owner out there ..

I refuse to be ashamed of my dogs anymore .. sorry

Lol and please dont respond with a multi paragraph BS page like before .. it didnt work last time and I can promise now that I am starting to understand what it is your all about I could really care less =]


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Gimbler said:


> No, it's not helping. I had a friend a few years back who bought a dog from a PET STORE! When I gave her stuff about supporting a puppy mill she tried to justify it as she was "saving" a puppy mill puppy. More like "perpetuating"!
> 
> I realize that there are some very competent people on this site who work their dogs and breed them for certain characteristics and I don't object to people with a clear goal and understanding of the breed producing a litter with a purpose. But I do object STRONGLY to anyone who breeds for "fun and profit" rather than the betterment of the breed.
> 
> ...


See I agree with you on most parts here when looking at shelter vs BYB , but

" I couldn't justify buying a puppy (to be a house pet) from a breeder and condemning another shelter dog to death."

It does make me think those who chose to buy from a shelter for this reason well where do you think the majority of those puppys in shelters come from? So I dont agree with that statement persay but I do see your point and there are many valid reason to argue why to adopt shelter vs breeder and vice versa. 
I know a couple people who would just dump dogs at the shelter that they cant sell , so makes me wonder if they cant sell pups but can dump them when they get to that "not so cute" age will they just go back to breed more and hope they can sell more this time around I think they will. So it seems to me to be a kinda vicious circle that doesnt end with these millers.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

IzzosMommy said:


> 2. I have to say K.M you are very opinionated for someone who owns ban dogs .. for someone who doesnt even own a true apbt you have alot of rude remarks to people who dont either .. I find it also interesting that you find people "with these dogs Amusing" I happen too own two .. and yes I know about the health problems and let you rest assured I am more then fully aware of these concerns .. I know now, knew and honestly didnt care when I saw Izzo .. and as a Fool I do have to say that no i didnt think I was SAVING MY MONEY but I did know I was saving a life .. and like I said I didnt pay for Izzo or Weiser .. Nor do I think that game-bred dogs are underweight , mixed with anything or some other random breed .. I think they are well built game bred APBT's .. I do have to say that I find you and your remarks offensive in every way .. Just because my dog came from circumstances that were questionable does not mean that 1. I didnt report the POS that bred her the day I took her litter home 2. I didnt know that it was probably going to be sleepless nights and a emptying of my savings to save them 3. if it came down too it and there were health problems I would have to put them down .. but atleast I gave them a chance at life .. atleast I have taken the precautions needed .. My dogs are well taken care of thank you and to be honest I think you are WAY more opinionated then any scatterbred or possible mix breed pitbull or "petbull" owner out there ..
> 
> I refuse to be ashamed of my dogs anymore .. sorry


Well firstly i have owned "true" bulldogs for years prior to these two Bandogs i own currently, so while you are correct i do not own APBT's at the moment i have plenty of experience with bulldogs, more than many on here do IMO be able to pass along my opinion or knowledge. I don't believe i should be "penalized" for what i own currently (in a sense) when i have the years of experience to offer.. Plus regardless of what i own and how anyone sees them, (Bandogs, Mutts, Mastiffs, Bulldogs, etc) i still went through proper breeders and know what i'm feeding vs going through BYB, HSUS, etc. So again, while you have your opinion of me and i can respect your opinion so long as its done so respectfully, in the end i personally don't see what you said has to do much with the topic or anything else i have to offer. IMO some people get too caught up with what i own vs the grand "picture"... But again if you feel i have no right in speaking, thats your opinion and you are more than entitled to it. I have helped quite a few on here and i believe in the end the vast majority see me as a knowledgable member, might not agree to every single thing i say and may have some arguments from time to time but everyone does.. and no one is going to agree 100% all the time with anyone.

Now i will say it seems any time (and i do mean any time) i say something that can directly affect people on here i try to keep it respectful, unless i obviously mean to i normally don't mean to offend anyone here on a personal level. However this is typed and no one knows how i mean my posts except me so if it comes off as offensive to some, i can't really help that nor am i going to apologize for it because in the end its probably not how i meant it.. Theres also the trend that where i do speak out, normally about "pet bulls", breeding practices, rescues, etc... Is when people come back after me and my dogs. Kind of funny in a way, i've said it before and will say it again.. I'm a fairly private person, not that many people here have taken the time to actually get to know me.. Its all judge mental based on opinions.. Partially do it to myself by not being as open as others, partially others faults for assuming.. The quote "It does not take facts to acquire opinion." comes to mind... That and the "Everyone has an opinion..."

Now this thread is not based on me or my dogs however i just wanted to clear that up, if you still want to discuss things feel free to PM me or we can just leave it at that. It seems these type of conversations lead to "KM's dogs" often so lets try not to do it again with this thread.



zohawn said:


> why not adopt a dog from a rescue instead? at a rescue youre not sure of line etc but it comes:
> 
> spay neut
> usually temperment tested
> ...


While i get what you are saying and to a good degree i agree with you.. Rescue over BYB or "saving" from a BYB.. It still boils down to how knowledgable that new owner is.. The vast majority (not all) that rescue these "type" of dogs shouldnt. It can be seen time and time again with these dog park debates for instance.. But the big picture, i agree with ya.


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

EckoMac said:


> IMO When a person finds a puppy in this situation, they should contact the proper authorities. Most states have laws about these things. If there are none, then a quick call to a few local news stations would do as well. I wouldn't purchase the puppy. I would wait until it went through the system and if it's healthy enough to adopt out, then I would adopt it. Again, just my opinion.


Darn-it, stole my words!


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

In general, are you helping? No. One side of the argument is that buying a puppy or saving a puppy from a BYB encourages the breeder to produce more puppies, thus, only adding to the problem. 

But, are you helping on a small scale? Yes. You are saving one pup, but possibly damning dozens more. So, are you helping? Yes. Are you also causing more damage? Yes. 

I think that a lot of people love their own dogs more than the breed itself. They justify that love by arguing that they were helping. Hey, one person can't save them all, right? But one person can save one dog. They do not have to look into the eyes of further litters. They do not have to think about the litter mates they left behind. They get to snuggle up with their pet at night, sleeping soundly because they feel like someone's savior. And in all reality, given the choice, they probably would not trade their one dog for the dozens that suffer after it.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Good topic. I'd say that the small scale helping that smokey joe refers to is outweighed by the potential harm that supporting BYBs does.

I subscribe to the theory that it does encourage further breeding because, hey, it was so easy to sell all those pups, lets do that again when she comes into season the next time!

Again, this is not to judge anyone who has done so (and plenty have) because obviously it's hard to ignore an animal's suffering and think of the bigger picture. If you could get the dog/dogs out of the situation without paying the miller for it then that's all well and good. Unfortunately, millers and BYBs know how to prey on people's emotions to get them for a quick buck and the cycle begins again.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The way a man keeps his yard shows a lot about how he cares for his pups. If a man doesn't value his yard than he places little value on his breeding program and the animals he feeds. I don't feel sorry when I see a worthless pet who was bred out of sheer ignorance. What I feel is what a shame another poorly bred example or mutt with an unproven history that will take up another spot in a shelter and will eventually be put down if no one adopts it. While those worthless dogs are sitting in shelters these same clueless owner's are seeking out pup's rapidly from Byb's and have no idea they are supporting these breeder's enabling them to continue peddling off more worthless pets on craigslist, newspaper's, websites, and even dog bulletin forums.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I just wanted to add if I came across a pup/litter in poor conditions and the so called breeder asked me to take all the pup's I would for the benefit of the breed take them and cull them myself.


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

Sadie said:


> I just wanted to add if I came across a pup/litter in poor conditions and the so called breeder asked me to take all the pup's I would for the benefit of the breed take them and cull them myself.


Might I ask why you would cull all of them ? When they could be spayed or neutred and takin care of until the end of there lives .. ? So you save them from the BYB and then kill them is that right .. makes alot of sense since the will never be breeders because they are fixed .. and could really be a great pet for someone who knows what there dealing with ..?

and thank you once again for putting down my animals .. it really wants people to stay on this forum .. lol my dog may be a mutt but shes saved my life and my nephews so im pretty sure she is not worthless .. =]


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> I just wanted to add if I came across a pup/litter in poor conditions and the so called breeder asked me to take all the pup's I would for the benefit of the breed take them and cull them myself.


:cheers: If it isn't benefiting the breed or preserving, whats really the point? These are working dogs not meant to be just pets, theres too many good "pets" out there in the world in shelters no need to keep it going. I hate to see innocent pups and dogs be killed but it has to happen, population control, diseases, un controlled HA, etc. It is what it is.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I would cull them because they come from unproven dog's therefore you do not know what is behind those dogs temperament/health wise If your breeding dogs you need to know what your breeding. Breeding blindly is very dangerous and careless. If one of those pups matures and ends up being Human Aggressive because they come from a long line of human aggressive dogs and those traits have been passed along regardless if the pup ends up in a pet home or not it still doesn't change the unstable/unknown genetics behind said pup. Culling should be a huge part of any animal breeder's program. If breeder's culled accordingly than there wouldn't be such a mass production of unsound animals in the world unfortunately back yard breeder's don't breed to produce better quality animals they breed to peddle animals for money so they have no idea what kind of dogs they are producing. Our breed can't 
afford anymore accident's or mishaps. Intentions while may be good often lead the pathway to ****. There are good breeder's out there who strive to produce top quality animals these are the people I support and will buy my dogs from.


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

okay thank you for responding calmly . And while yes I do understand this .. I can totally understand where you are coming from because I have seen the product of back yard breeders .. and while I wish I could send each and everyone of them where they belong I cant .. but when it comes to the point of them not having a purpose because they are not titled that is not always true .. Izzo has a very profound purpose in my life that I haven't yet felt comfortable enough to share with anyone until rite now because it seems relevant .. I suffer from Afib and Izzo can detect my heart rate dropping or increasing .. She has saved my life numerous times and also my nephews by not allowing me to drive when she knew I had a oncoming episode coming .. so would you call that worthless ?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

IzzosMommy said:


> and thank you once again for putting down my animals .. it really wants people to stay on this forum .. lol my dog may be a mutt but shes saved my life and my nephews so im pretty sure she is not worthless .. =]


Perhaps you should quit taking everything so personally, no one has said anything specifically about your dogs.. Myself included. In the end it was your choice no one elses, you feed your dogs for your own reasons but doesn't mean everyone else should or would just because you are happy. Often, these dogs turn out to have plenty of health concerns..I've seen/heard plenty of dogs that should of been culled a long time ago but not because the owners refuse to PTS..Instead these dogs live their lives in misery..Not yours specifically..As a whole.


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Perhaps you should quit taking everything so personally, no one has said anything specifically about your dogs.. Myself included. In the end it was your choice no one elses, you feed your dogs for your own reasons but doesn't mean everyone else should or would just because you are happy. Often, these dogs turn out to have plenty of health concerns..I've seen/heard plenty of dogs that should of been culled a long time ago but not because the owners refuse to POS..Instead these dogs live their lives in misery..Not yours specifically..As a whole.


Lol I feed my dogs because I love them .. and how can it be a whole if my dogs are included in the whole .. Izzo had her issues and instead of taking the easy out and and putting her down I took care of the problem and now I couldnt have a more wonderful dog.. lol there are two sides to every story and your problem seems to be you think your side is the only correct one and its not .. I live to save animals if there is a chance .. and Im sorry if you dont agree with that but quite honestly I dont care I will defend my dog who is part of that whole until I am blue in the face .. Im not breeding her , Im not trying to sneak her into any shows .. she pulls like a champ , has saved my life on numerous occasions and is she in no way living in misery .. Now to say she does one day become HA or have something health wise wrong her she will be put down { or treated for the health portion} but until then I see no problem with keeping her if she is a happy healthy part of my family ..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

IzzosMommy said:


> okay thank you for responding calmly . And while yes I do understand this .. I can totally understand where you are coming from because I have seen the product of back yard breeders .. and while I wish I could send each and everyone of them where they belong I cant .. but when it comes to the point of them not having a purpose because they are not titled that is not always true .. Izzo has a very profound purpose in my life that I haven't yet felt comfortable enough to share with anyone until rite now because it seems relevant .. I suffer from Afib and Izzo can detect my heart rate dropping or increasing .. She has saved my life numerous times and also my nephews by not allowing me to drive when she knew I had a oncoming episode coming .. so would you call that worthless ?


Izzo when I say worthless I don't mean to offend you for choosing to rescue. I am speaking strictly off the fact that I personally am not willing to gamble with a dog who I can't see a proven history on. I need to know where said dog comes from and what the dog's behind said dog are all about. I love this breed very much and unfortunately many of these attacks that take place are often by dog's who came from unknown linage the owner got the dog without having a clue as to where that dog comes from and what the parent's were like . Whenever your dealing with unknown's you are clearly stepping out on faith and taking a chance or a risk hoping that the pup you got will grow up to not have any issues. I have 2 children and the breed is being banned in mass numbers across the world. So you see our breed has very little room to have any accidents happen. I love the freedom and the right to still be able to own APBT's therefore I am not willing to gamble on them by taking on a mix that appears to have APBT blood in it and if that dog does anything to harm anyone the whole breed will suffer for it because my actions effect many other's not just me and my dogs. You took the chance and from the sounds of it that worked out for you and your situation. I personally am just not willing to take that chance I would rather spend my money on a dog who comes from a long proven history of good dogs bred to the highest standards set for the breed.


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Izzo when I say worthless I don't mean to offend you for choosing to rescue. I am speaking strictly off the fact that I personally am not willing to gamble with a dog who I can't see a proven history on. I need to know where said dog comes from and what the dog's behind said dog are all about. I love this breed very much and unfortunately many of these attacks that take place are often by dog's who come from unknown linage the owner got the dog without having a clue as to where that dog comes from and what the parent's were like. Whenever your dealing with unknown's you are clearly stepping out on faith and taking a chance or a risk hoping that the pup you got will grow up to not have any issues. I have 2 children and the breed is being banned in mass numbers across the world. So you see our breed has very little room to have any accidents happen. I love the freedom and the right to still be able to own APBT's therefore I am not willing to gamble on them by taking on a mix that appears to have APBT blood in it and if that dog does anything to harm anyone the whole breed will suffer for it because my actions effect many other's not just me and my dogs. You took the chance and from the sounds of it that worked out for you and your situation. I personally am just not willing to take that chance I would rather spend my money on a dog who comes from a long proven history of good dogs bred to the highest standards set for the breed.


Thank you Sadie .. its nice to have someone who is able to express what they feel without being rude .. and I totally understand where you are coming from I dont know if you know this but I am from Detroit Michigan where there is a serious problem with overpopulation of the breed .. and I can understand completely where you are coming from in the fact that you have children .. I would just like to add that I did not in fact spend money on Izzo and I do have to say that I am extremely lucky that she has been as wonderful as she has , but I on the under hand do not have children . I take all the precautions that a well bred apbt owners would take and then some .. I know that there is a change of HA popping up but she never leaves my side and a when she is not there she is in her run or in her bedroom { yes she has her own bedroom lol } .. And I would also like to add that when in a breeding program I see nothing wrong with culling it is a necessary thing .. but people like me are not running a breeding program .. we love are animals and do the right thing for the breed and that is honestly all I am trying to put out there .. my dog is not worthless nor am I a fool for having her .. I dont call her a apbt because she is not one shes my mutt and I love her .. while the breeders of these dogs should be bashed I dont feel that the people who have put alot of time and care and sweat and tears into these dogs should be bashed for wanting to save there lives .. So long as they are taking the correct precautions and know what they are getting there selves into , Im sorry but there is ones who think they have a APBT and ones who know they have a mutt but love them anyway we are not a whole .. I am not ignorant like them and I feel like with a few posts in this thread people who do what I do are being portrayed as such ..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Izzo when I say worthless I don't mean to offend you for choosing to rescue. I am speaking strictly off the fact that I personally am not willing to gamble with a dog who I can't see a proven history on. I need to know where said dog comes from and what the dog's behind said dog are all about. I love this breed very much and unfortunately many of these attacks that take place are often by dog's who came from unknown linage the owner got the dog without having a clue as to where that dog comes from and what the parent's were like . Whenever your dealing with unknown's you are clearly stepping out on faith and taking a chance or a risk hoping that the pup you got will grow up to not have any issues. I have 2 children and the breed is being banned in mass numbers across the world. So you see our breed has very little room to have any accidents happen. I love the freedom and the right to still be able to own APBT's therefore I am not willing to gamble on them by taking on a mix that appears to have APBT blood in it and if that dog does anything to harm anyone the whole breed will suffer for it because my actions effect many other's not just me and my dogs. You took the chance and from the sounds of it that worked out for you and your situation. I personally am just not willing to take that chance I would rather spend my money on a dog who comes from a long proven history of good dogs bred to the highest standards set for the breed.


:goodpost: When you want a working class dog, breed, etc you want to know what your feeding is going to work.. Proven results instilled in the genes.. Rescuing might be good for some but in the end its risky and not many will do the right thing if it comes down to it let alone understand what their feeding.

Its an old debate that will never end. Rescue vs buy from breeder, both have pros and cons depending on how you view things. Doesn't change reality.. Too many strays, over population, too many BYBs, too many unstable dogs and too many idiots who think they know what they are doing.


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> :goodpost: When you want a working class dog, breed, etc you want to know what your feeding is going to work.. Proven results instilled in the genes.. Rescuing might be good for some but in the end its risky and not many will do the right thing if it comes down to it let alone understand what their feeding.
> 
> Its an old debate that will never end. Rescue vs buy from breeder, both have pros and cons depending on how you view things. Doesn't change reality.. Too many strays, over population, too many BYBs, too many unstable dogs and too many idiots who think they know what they are doing.


oh yes so lets kill them all .. :flush:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

IzzosMommy said:


> Thank you Sadie .. its nice to have someone who is able to express what they feel without being rude .. and I totally understand where you are coming from I dont know if you know this but I am from Detroit Michigan where there is a serious problem with overpopulation of the breed .. and I can understand completely where you are coming from in the fact that you have children .. I would just like to add that I did not in fact spend money on Izzo and I do have to say that I am extremely lucky that she has been as wonderful as she has , but I on the under hand do not have children . I take all the precautions that a well bred apbt owners would take and then some .. I know that there is a change of HA popping up but she never leaves my side and a when she is not there she is in her run or in her bedroom { yes she has her own bedroom lol } .. And I would also like to add that when in a breeding program I see nothing wrong with culling it is a necessary thing .. but people like me are not running a breeding program .. we love are animals and do the right thing for the breed and that is honestly all I am trying to put out there .. my dog is not worthless nor am I a fool for having her .. I dont call her a apbt because she is not one shes my mutt and I love her .. while the breeders of these dogs should be bashed I dont feel that the people who have put alot of time and care and sweat and tears into these dogs should be bashed for wanting to save there lives .. So long as they are taking the correct precautions and know what they are getting there selves into , Im sorry but there is ones who think they have a APBT and ones who know they have a mutt but love them anyway we are not a whole .. I am not ignorant like them and I feel like with a few posts in this thread people who do what I do are being portrayed as such ..


I understand and I respect other's right's to adopt from a shelter if that is the route they choose to go. It's just that one must proceed with caution because the media only knows one thing if it looks like a pit bull than it's a pit bull and it doesn't matter if that dog came from a shelter and has no pedigree on it which essentially would make it a mutt. They don't care about BYB'ers breeding unknown dogs passing off characteristics and traits into dogs that were never selected for to begin with. All the media know's and see's is it's a pit bull because it looks like one and worse they have no clue what an APBT really looks like to begin with. I am only speaking from my own stand point if it were up to me there would be no shelter's a dog found on the street that could not be returned to it's rightful owner would be put down. And don't get me wrong I love animals but I am a very big supporter of breeding to better breeds and only supporting those who are breeding to the highest standards set for the breed by doing that we are forcing people to use better judgement and support the right kind of breeder's which in turn forces people to become accountable for their actions. But I do respect the right for someone to want to save an animal they feel is worth saving.


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

Sadie said:


> I understand and I respect other's right's to adopt from a shelter if that is the route they choose to go. It's just that one must proceed with caution because the media only knows one thing if it looks like a pit bull than it's a pit bull and it doesn't matter if that dog came from a shelter and has no pedigree on it which essentially would make it a mutt. They don't care about BYB'ers breeding unknown dogs passing off characteristics and traits into dogs that were never selected for to begin with. All the media know's and see's is it's a pit bull because it looks like one and worse they have no clue what an APBT really looks like to begin with. I am only speaking from my own stand point if it were up to me there would be no shelter's a dog found on the street that could not be returned to it's rightful owner would be put down. And don't get me wrong I love animals but I am a very big supporter of breeding to better breeds and only supporting those who are breeding to the highest standards set for the breed by doing that we are forcing people to use better judgement and support the right kind of breeder's which in turn forces people to become accountable for their actions. But I do respect the right for someone to want to save an animal they feel is worth saving.


:goodpost: thank you for understanding ..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

IzzosMommy said:


> oh yes so lets kill them all .. :flush:


For someone who has a lot to say about someone (me) you've hardly if ever spoken with before, you sure like to take things i say out of context and make them sound something they aren't.

Sadie is virtually saying the exact same thing i am in a different way. Funny how you agree with her yet constantly give me grief.

If you don't like what i have to say ignore my posts, easy enough isn't it?

But to comment on this particular post, i would rather "kill them all" than have every single dog out there go to thousands of homes where the people "taking care of them" have no clue how to handle ____ breed, ____ mix of breeds as well have little to no common sense.

But, did i say kill them all? No and you seem to be just picking my posts apart to your liking rather than taking time to understand them or have a mature, healthy debate here.

Got to love it..


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> For someone who has a lot to say about someone (me) you've hardly if ever spoken with before, you sure like to take things i say out of context and make them sound something they aren't.
> 
> Sadie is virtually saying the exact same thing i am in a different way. Funny how you agree with her yet constantly give me grief.
> 
> ...


i dont understand her either. im not going back to quote posts but i dont think izo knows what a bandog is. theres a difference between some one starting a breed off right to a byb.

no matter how anyone feels, never bring home a sick puppy. especially if you already have dogs


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## crystalcountry (Dec 26, 2010)

Wow! Some very strong opinions. We rescue, that doesn't make us any better or any worse than anyone else, but that is our choice. Even getting a pup or dog from a well established breeder doesn't guarantee (sp) no problems it hopefully stacks the deck in favor of that dog. Nor does getting a dog from the shelter/rescue guarantee(sp) a mistake. 

After the loss of Tia we were shoved into a position to take a foster out of a real crappy situation-yes, I feel we did "save" her- do I feel bad for opening our home? No, but do I wish things for this pup would have started out better? Heck yeah! Still, things come into our life as we need them, and I for one know this pup needed us and we need her.
Will we formally adopt her? That remains to be seen. Most likely... yes and I think we will be better for it. 

A hard fact of life is...Alot of people don't see ANY dog as just pets, they do make money off them- they have became a chattal-livestock. Everything has been sanitized to the point that the shelter system is used as culling. The BYBs out there don't have to get their hands bloody and so they don't see anything wrong with what they're doing. I hate it, but I guess that's what people like me are for- I, and people like me, come along and clean up the broken, beaten, and abused lives. We shake our heads, wipe away our tears, and keep on doing what we think is right for that situation. It's not glamorous and there's times I would like to have that dog without health issues, etc. but I sleep well at night. We've been very blessed with the dogs we've brought into our house, and we've been doing this a very, very long time. 

Sitting on the fence... I think everyone here has made valid points and passion is just that...passion! Even if it's a mix, bandog, shelter dog, gamebred, petbull We lov'em and just like our kids, we don't want anybody talking smack about them- right or wrong.


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## texasgame (Oct 4, 2011)

this turned into a good thread sadie km wonderful posting i am all for culling and i agree with sadie on the shelters i wish we dident have any and ny strays if no owner would be pts it would solve alot of the problems we face as owners of this breed well responsible owners witht technology and microchipping these days if you lost your dog and it was chipped they would have better ods of getting ahold of you in an alotted amout of time before the animal is put to sleep. Im sure this will stir some controversey but thats ok, but if you think about it there would be no dogs running the streets pits or not it would definatly make people think twice befor gtting any dog makin responsible owners imo


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

zohawn said:


> i dont understand her either. im not going back to quote posts but i dont think izo knows what a bandog is. theres a difference between some one starting a breed off right to a byb.
> 
> no matter how anyone feels, never bring home a sick puppy. especially if you already have dogs


Eh it is what it is bud, no harm done. These type of conversations can get heated, some take things personally (no one specifically it happens often in other topics like this) and it can turn ugly.

Definitely agree with you on the sick puppy, if you do chose to do so take that pup to the vet the second you leave that BYB and be prepared for the worst, i.e PTS. If you have other dogs already last thing you want to do is end up having a house full of sick hounds when it could have been easily avoided, best intentions or not.



texasgame said:


> this turned into a good thread sadie km wonderful posting i am all for culling and i agree with sadie on the shelters i wish we dident have any and ny strays if no owner would be pts it would solve alot of the problems we face as owners of this breed well responsible owners witht technology and microchipping these days if you lost your dog and it was chipped they would have better ods of getting ahold of you in an alotted amout of time before the animal is put to sleep. Im sure this will stir some controversey but thats ok, but if you think about it there would be no dogs running the streets pits or not it would definatly make people think twice befor gtting any dog makin responsible owners imo


:goodpost: though i will disagree with microchipping.. It does have its advantages but for me i'm against it on my own hounds.. Wont preach to anyone about my views on it as its all opinion for me. You put a lot of trust in people to scan to see if theres a microchip there if your dog does get lost, you also put faith in mans technology in your hound to not go wrong, not get infected, etc. Sure, there is a fairly low rate of things going wrong in terms of the chip itself and risk of infection from "surgery" but i just don't have that kind of trust.

As to strays, its a huge problem and extends further than just hounds.. Around town stray cats are a HUGE issue and they are multiplying far faster than they can catch them.. More strays, more work needed to catch them, they get sent to city pound (need i say more with that?) or HSUS which is already over populated virtually every where from BYBs and existing animals there found on the streets, its a vicious cycle. One part sad, not the animals fault.. One part ridiculous as these animals are going into homes no better than the streets in some cases, others people are adopting these "pit bulls" without any knowledge of what they are getting into and the list can go on for other breeds that were never initially intended for the general public.. Working hounds.. Now you take that and add some  genetics and you have a recipe for disaster..

Breed specific rescues is a great option but theres only so much they can do now in days as many fall in their yards....


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

crystalcountry said:


> Wow! Some very strong opinions. We rescue, that doesn't make us any better or any worse than anyone else, but that is our choice. Even getting a pup or dog from a well established breeder doesn't guarantee (sp) no problems it hopefully stacks the deck in favor of that dog. Nor does getting a dog from the shelter/rescue guarantee(sp) a mistake.
> 
> After the loss of Tia we were shoved into a position to take a foster out of a real crappy situation-yes, I feel we did "save" her- do I feel bad for opening our home? No, but do I wish things for this pup would have started out better? Heck yeah! Still, things come into our life as we need them, and I for one know this pup needed us and we need her.
> Will we formally adopt her? That remains to be seen. Most likely... yes and I think we will be better for it.
> ...


See thats good though I think , you went through a shelter to get this dog right? Not the miller or BYB'r .

I received 4 rescues last night that we are fostering unil they have a clean bill of health { so the comment someone made about not bringing sick dogs home when we have dogs I guess we broke that rule lol, but they are quarantined and seperate from our own house dogs} . I dont completely know there story I know bits and peices from what was relayed back to me and luckly the guy surrendered them with papers so we even know there pedigree.
I can see Sadies and KM's point about culling and how it would manage the problems our society faces these days with all these loose dogs but its not something I cold see me doing without a just cause. medical, tempermental ect there would have to be a reason for me to take those measures, maybe Im weak at heart I dont know.
I also agree with the post way above who asked if there spca would even do anything if called, thats a valid argument too. We called the SPCA on a guy who kept his horse on the property behind our house years ago he would turn her out in the construction feild with nails all over she even got one in the frog one day too and ended up infected, he never fed or watered her we found her bucket of water frozen solid one day. the SPCA came and because he had food there { wasnt in the stall was just in the feed room} they couldnt do anything. But then on the same note if you dont call then there is no chance of help for these animals. So really nothing to lose by calling and reporting them right?
I would personally rather see alot of these BYB'r dogs go through a shelter or rescue atleast there is usually some sort of home screening right? the breeders of these pups could realy care less who and where they end up. IMO If you buy a dog and they dont even bother to ask for contact info , address, look into you a bit , refrences and least of all contact you throughout your dogs life then you have not found the right breeder. The proper breeders will care about there pups weather 4 weeks old or 14 years old.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah that's kind of my point the hard cold reality is regardless of wether these dogs are good or bad animals ending up at these shelters 99% of them are a result of back yard breedings so let's just be honest these animals were not bred to the highest standards by any means and many of them will have problems of some sort. Also I have never bought a dog from a man who didn't make a point to tell me please if anything happens and you can no longer care for the dog please return it to my yard and I will even buy the dog back! A good breeder will always take his dogs back should something happen where you can no longer care for that animal these guys place value on what they breed so they would never want the dog to go anywhere else but back to the yard it came from.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

^ Home screening (at least in areas i've lived in GA, SC, NC, VA) where i have spoken to people and even volunteered off and on... HSUS is VERY slack about screening.. Majority of the time someone comes in says they want _____ dog, fill out some paper work, pay, leave with dog. In fact i have heard plenty of stories where the HSUS was supposed to S/N prior to adopting but failed to do so because of overpopulation, they just wanted to make sure the pups/dogs got out before they had to be PTS.

Rescue's generally do a better job at it but not all do. If i were to ever adopt id go through a rescue with a reputable reputation before i stepped foot in a HSUS or pound.

Many (HSUS) don't health test, temperament test, etc.. They are the good guys right?? Still a business at the end of the day.. Now i am not saying all are bad and shameful, i'm sure there are many out there that do the best they can with what they have to work with.. But from my experience its not as "glorious" as the big picture appears to be.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

You know I walked through a shelter in my home town last year and there was this one dog that was an obvious pit mix I approached the dog and it started growling and snapping at me! These other owner's were trying to adopt this dog out and these idiots up at the pound were seriously going to allow this dog to be adopted. I told the couple do not take that dog that the dog shouldn't even be up for adoption that it should be PTS! They had a child with them as well I mean you couldn't even pet this dog so I was in disbelief as to why they would even allow this dog to be adopted out. SMFH!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> You know I walked through a shelter in my home town last year and there was this one dog that was an obvious pit mix I approached the dog and it started growling and snapping at me! These other owner's were trying to adopt this dog out and these idiots up at the pound were seriously going to allow this dog to be adopted. I told the couple do not take that dog that the dog shouldn't even be up for adoption that it should be PTS! They had a child with them as well I mean you couldn't even pet this dog so I was in disbelief as to why they would even allow this dog to be adopted out. SMFH!


Its a fad to adopt, not the only reason people do but majority..Buy from a breeder you are evil, adopt you are golden! Unless you are buying a cute goldendoodle..you are still golden because thats accepted as well.

Because its a fad people dont THINK before they get a dog, they probably had little sense to start with but because its cool and "hip" they lose all common sense and say its a cute dog lets get it! Nevermind what they are walking into..


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

yes Km I agree I would rather go through a rescue then the HSUS as well , they broke down there spendings tothe public last year and was amazed at the donations sent in to them majority of it didnt even go to the animals alot of people were pretty PO'd , I think HSUS is just as bad as some of the breeders where its all about $$$ and not so much about the dogs. I dont know about there but up here they are a bit bias against our breed of choice and more often then not will PTS any bulldog breed, the rescues specifically for this breed are a much better option they even try and take them fromt he shelters and bring them to there rescue. People who know the breed and know how to properly screen for the right homes. The only issue with that are the people who dont qualify or suit this breed will always find a way to get what they want , there is always some other person money hungry enough to sell them a dog.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

angelbaby said:


> yes Km I agree I would rather go through a rescue then the HSUS as well , they broke down there spendings tothe public last year and was amazed at the donations sent in to them majority of it didnt even go to the animals alot of people were pretty PO'd , I think HSUS is just as bad as some of the breeders where its all about $$$ and not so much about the dogs. I dont know about there but up here they are a bit bias against our breed of choice and more often then not will PTS any bulldog breed, the rescues specifically for this breed are a much better option they even try and take them fromt he shelters and bring them to there rescue. People who know the breed and know how to properly screen for the right homes. The only issue with that are the people who dont qualify or suit this breed will always find a way to get what they want , there is always some other person money hungry enough to sell them a dog.


:goodpost: Hit the nail on the head angelbaby.. All companies, corporations, etc are in it for profit. No matter what cause or what the "foundation" stands for at the end of the day no profit cant keep the doors open. And it just so happens HSUS as a whole is a multi - billion dollar industry.. Who would have thought since they all seem to be broke, no funds, etc.. Its something along the lines of for every $10 they get, less than $2.00 goes towards anything notable. Now not ALL are like this but i'm speaking of the industry as one, not individual cases..

Its pretty much the same every where for the most part, if it looks like a bulldog or "pit" than its chances are usually cut in third. Is it sad? Absolutely. Good dogs die every day, bad dogs get adopted every day.. Some bad die some good get homes.. But its justified because they don't have the "funds"..

The HSUS here, a friend of mine was a vet there making $9.00 an hr. Only stayed as long as she did because she felt like if someone was knowledgable there it would make a difference.. It didn't unfortunately.. And to top it off last year she brought home around $28,000, the others made any where from nothing (volunteer) to less than $12,000 a year.. The head lady in charge of multiple ones in the area of the state? Six figures. Meanwhile you hear "give us money all these animals are sick, overpopulated, etc" we need your help! Hmm...

They did just finish their new facility that costed in the neighborhood of $18 million to build, its nice no doubt.. Built with charity money.. Of course.. Now you tell me whats wrong with this picture? Don't fool yourself, its not isolated..


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## Harley D (Mar 27, 2009)

IMO I think even though they are taking that puppy away from that mill, they are just setting others up to live in that condition. By leave the puppy there it is sacrificing one puppy to save one other or maybe even thousands. I know first time buyers go in to these places and it rips them apart inside to leave the puppy there, but it maybe for the best in the long run for generations to come. 

Though, if they really want to help puppies from puppy mills, go to a local pound or keep listening for a puppy mill bust that animal control took care of and adopt a puppy. Not only is it cheaper, but its truly making a difference


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## Trojanboi400 (Sep 1, 2011)

*BSL will cull 4 U*

IMO there are a lot of people out there that just want a pet and may feel a pit bull is for them. Whether they are right or wrong, I don't know but they will take the easiest route to get their "pet bull".......BYB. It's quick & cheaper. Most people wont do research so may not know the signs or questions to ask a breeder either good or bad. Example: I have a young troop that just purchased a "blue nose pit bull" (I know it's just color...roll with it) on craigslist. He lives in an apartment that doesn't allow pets over 25lbs. I asked him why did he get the dog he said, "I never had a dog and wanted one so I saw her & wanted her. He didn't ask about papers, temperament, or nothing....exchanged the cash, took the dog and left. He and his wife now are trying to find a new place because a neighbor dime'd them out to the management.

I believe if people didn't buy from BYB they would eventually move on to some other "hustle". Either way you look at it....BYB or shelter..dogs are going to lose their life. People have good intentions but may be doing more damage than good by acquiring sick dogs. That's why we need sites like this one to help educate. Ignorance is a disease & education is the antidote.

At the end of the day, regardless of 100% pure & papered or 50/50 mixed & unknown, stray or loose pet, the BSL doesn't care if it came from a reputable breeder, BYB or if it fell from the sky.... the BSL will "CULL" it if it resembles a "pit bull".

This is really a good topic.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

People realize that some people spend money at a reputable breeder and then something happens (kid is now allergic, had to move, broke your back and can't walk and care for the dog) lots of "reasons" people feel excuse them from the commitment they made. Embarrassment is why they do not go back to the breeder. They promised and joked about how terrible some owners could be and they would NEVER do that, so they don't want to go back on their word, and drop at a shelter thinking it would not get back to the breeder. 

My cousin works at a shelter and she has done the due diligence on some if she can to research the lines when she is supplied with and will contact the breeder herself and the breeder's have almost ALWAYS taken the dogs back, as they had said they would to begin with. 

My point is, no matter what the ped, BYB, opps litter, tons of these pups are killed. I feel saving a dog is saving a dog. Some people suck, even ones who are cleared and felt would be a good home. You can't win the war, just each battle. And if one dog is saved and loved and not abused and the owner is responsible, I think its a great thing. No matter what the bloodline or history is or isn't... Your dog gets lost and is not chipped, he is just a pit bull type dog to the person who finds him, its not like he remembered to grab his papers before he got lost. I know that's not the question from the OP, but it seems like people have gotten into a non papered vs. papered fight instead of puppy mill vs. reputable breeder.


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

ames said:


> People realize that some people spend money at a reputable breeder and then something happens (kid is now allergic, had to move, broke your back and can't walk and care for the dog) lots of "reasons" people feel excuse them from the commitment they made. Embarrassment is why they do not go back to the breeder. They promised and joked about how terrible some owners could be and they would NEVER do that, so they don't want to go back on their word, and drop at a shelter thinking it would not get back to the breeder.
> 
> My cousin works at a shelter and she has done the due diligence on some if she can to research the lines when she is supplied with and will contact the breeder herself and the breeder's have almost ALWAYS taken the dogs back, as they had said they would to begin with.
> 
> My point is, no matter what the ped, BYB, opps litter, tons of these pups are killed. I feel saving a dog is saving a dog. Some people suck, even ones who are cleared and felt would be a good home. You can't win the war, just each battle. And if one dog is saved and loved and not abused and the owner is responsible, I think its a great thing. No matter what the bloodline or history is or isn't... Your dog gets lost and is not chipped, he is just a pit bull type dog to the person who finds him, its not like he remembered to grab his papers before he got lost. I know that's not the question from the OP, but it seems like people have gotten into a non papered vs. papered fight instead of puppy mill vs. reputable breeder.


:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> For someone who has a lot to say about someone (me) you've hardly if ever spoken with before, you sure like to take things i say out of context and make them sound something they aren't.
> 
> Sadie is virtually saying the exact same thing i am in a different way. Funny how you agree with her yet constantly give me grief.
> 
> ...


Honestly I give you grief because of the way you state your opinion it comes of as rude .. you need to choose your words more appropriately instead of calling people fools and what not . Its rude and honestly no one wants to hear anyone's side of anything when they choose to debate like that .. I take it personally because I am a "sick" dog owner and I am no fool . I also used to work at a shelter and I know what happens in them and to the Cull dogs in them .. Ive seen alot of bad things , alot more then I have ever wished to see .. also being mature is not calling people names who do not agree with your side of things .. I didnt say anything negative about you until as you stated as a "whole" we are fools .. I wouldnt pick your post apart if there werent derogatory things in them that made me feel like I have to .. just because I havent spoken with you directly doesnt mean I cant see what you write on every thread and believe me there are alot of things I have wanted to say but havent until you started talking about something that I hold dear to my heart wheither you like it or not. maybe you dont see where im coming from maybe you do oh well .. like you said no harm done and things that are so personal get heated at times ..

And if you want to know why I can understand where sadie is coming from and not you .. its not that I dont get where you are coming from .. look at the way sadie was speaking to me and then you .. thats why I pick you apart .. thats why everytime I comment on anything you say its negative .. because you get what you put out and honestly all I ever see you say is negative things that can offend people and I dont think you realize it ..


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

It was really never intended to be papers vs shelter , there are many byb and puppy milled dogs that dont have papers or have hung papers , it was more BYB/mills vs shelters or better yet why not to buy from a BYB and the consiquences{sp} it costs more puppys later on . This was more to bring the awareness to those just getting into this breed or just looking for there 1st dog. I know I made mistakes when buying my girl and think alot of those people out there probably are making the same. Hopefully this thread can bring some valid points to them on why to look for a good breeder and or a shelter and what they can do if along the way they run into one of these horrible places. I think there have been valid points though made in this thread on every aspect of getting a new dog whether shelter or breeder. What one persons view on a dog doesnt make or break that dog cause the next person may view it completely different , it was never to say a papered dog is worth more then a non papered one, in some eyes this may be true but to someone who loves there dog regardless it means nothing. I hope though thatthis does help someone who finds themselves in this situation and thinking well if I buy this poor pup it will save him and maybe think about all the valid reasons for not buying that pup as hard as it may be when you have the pup in your arms and looking in those sad eyes.


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## Trojanboi400 (Sep 1, 2011)

ames said:


> My point is, no matter what the ped, BYB, opps litter, tons of these pups are killed. I feel *saving a dog is saving a dog. Some people suck, even ones who are cleared and felt would be a good home. You can't win the war, just each battle. And if one dog is saved and loved and not abused and the owner is responsible, I think its a great thing. No matter what the bloodline or history is or isn't...* Your dog gets lost and is not chipped, he is just a pit bull type dog to the person who finds him, its not like he remembered to grab his papers before he got lost. I know that's not the question from the OP, but it seems like people have gotten into a non papered vs. papered fight instead of puppy mill vs. reputable breeder.


:goodpost:
Let me give my on topic spill. IMO if you walk into the situation & the yard is not taken care of, you have 3 options. 1. Walk away 2. Buy a pup anyways because you really need a "pit" (sarcasm) or 3. Call the appropriate authorities.

I agree saving a dog is saving a dog but what about the rest of the litter? It's hard for me personally to take 1 & leave the other 6-10.

Some shelters actually do test & the spay/neuter where as a mill will not. Like mentioned earlier...it's a revolving circle. Take a pup from a mill, that's 1 more dog in the shelter that may be PTS. Adopt a shelter dog, that's 1 pup from a mill that may get dumped in the shelter & may not get adopted...then he to is PTS.

Bottom line if your heart is genuine for the dogs ....I commend you but having a dog with unknown history is a gamble redgardless where you got it from.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Ive done it and Ill do it again. Ive taken whole litters.....make no mistake abot the fact that I have always had plenty of resources to not only take care of the pups but to make sure that breeder never owns another animal legally for a long time. not to mention the finacial burden it puts on them for legal reasons. 
it can make a difference but even then not every pup makes it to a home and family. I have to take full responsibilty right to their last breath. personally i would have put bob down by 6 months old but the family thought it was worth following thru and make him ours. I would never place that dog with anyone lol
this is a good thread Angel!
Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts. this is good education!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

redog said:


> Ive done it and Ill do it again. Ive taken whole litters.....make no mistake abot the fact that I have always had plenty of resources to not only take care of the pups but to make sure that breeder never owns another animal legally for a long time. not to mention the finacial burden it puts on them for legal reasons.
> it can make a difference but even then not every pup makes it to a home and family. I have to take full responsibilty right to their last breath. personally i would have put bob down by 6 months old but the family thought it was worth following thru and make him ours. I would never place that dog with anyone lol
> this is a good thread Angel!
> 
> Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts. this is good education!


Dave you are like one in a million of the shelter/rescue guys that I would vouch for and say this guy does understand the breed and is not clueless or blind when adopting them out. I wish more shelter rescues groups were more educated about the breed to begin with instead of being more into the cause of rescue that they become blind sided to the breeds nature and place these dogs under false hopes or pretenses. Understanding breeds is very important wether your a pet owner or working within a shelter organization.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

thats because i represent the dogs and not any shelter. give me a breed specific rescue anyday


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I started in rescue; first with wolves that were pets in Oklahoma, and then later to SPCA where I was certified in Euthanasia and as a Vet Tech. Opening day I had to euthanize 26 dogs a day ( I remember that number because it was the minimum; most places dont realize over population and parvo springs up from nowhere) So .. SPCA prevents that by having a dogs/cats day numbered. We also got goats, pigs, hawks from time to time but those are all easy saves.

The problem always lies with the accountability of people. .. ITS all a HUSTLE.. so to speak ... LOL

In the shelters, and rescue facilities you will have people who know better or not, lie about the breed of a dog because "this great lil dog can't be a pit bull, it must be a boxer mix" then they lable the american bulldog mix or boxer lab mix ; a "pit mix" ... :hammer: I can go in almost any facility and see this. I know canines down to the "T" .. studied them my whole life along with other animals. It is a possiblity to know dogs and bloodlines so well you recognize the traits that make up a particular dog and or a family of dogs. PEOPLE.. get in the way of themselves.

For instance.. Am Bulldog comes in, bit someone, owners say "pit bulldog" on breed... :hammer: ... "Bully" style APBTs bite someone its NOT a bully, its a "pitbull"

..

In order to save an endangered species, what steps does it take? Well the APBT is an endagered species (breed) and considered a rare breed. So why are scattered bred yard dogs all over the place called "pit bulls" and not bulldogs or bandogs in which they really are? Ignorance.. "we are all so proud knowing; what we don't really know" .. Meaning people know it all and dont appreciate advice in general without getting prideful, most usually. Ignorance.. If we can't accept the fact that each and everyone of us has been ignorant to the breed and done had to step up our game or get prideful and keep doing more of the same, because at one point or other: it happens to us all. The BYB's .. are where Tudors looked for dogs back in his day< MIND YOU: back then all the dogs had to have contested wins to be a American Pit Bull Terrier~ Thats how the DOG was made..

Whats that mean? It means all the dogs out there with American Pit Bull Terrier registration are really: bulldogs, and bandogs (depending on size and work) unless the dogs themselves are proven or right down from proven stock. Just because paper law changes DOESNT mean GENETICS does.

What really needs to happen is the GENERAL populous need a new name for the scattered bred and BYBred dogs; rather it be Bully, Bulldog, Bandog, or what ever. Politics doesnt change genetics and we dont have American Pit Bull Terriers unless they are down from [] stock. People should BE HAPPY! They can HONESTLY take all these dogs and simply call them Bulldogs, or even better curdog. Because most places arent going to say you can't have a cur dog; even after they google it. You would even be honest if you said you had a bandog (working mastiff) if you have an APBT of 80lbs or more. So once again, its PRIDE.. PEOPLE think they want an American Pit Bull Terrier~ But NO they don't; they want a bulldog, a bandog, a cur dog, or even an aggie (bulldog) ..

People need to do themselves, their dogs, our dogs, the APBT as a "breed", and our community a favor............... "Call a Spade a Spade" .. Keep it simple..

Cant find a house to live in with you unpapered unproven or C' class registered "pit bull" .. then be honest with yourselves and the dog, and finding a house or staying in one isn't the deboggle; it's rather or not "you" (general euphanism) can handle the fact that "you" DONT have an APBT and you do just have ONE good dog, rather that be a bulldog, bandog, cur dog, or what havya.

That will fix the problem... So the question really is do we and everyone else, want to swallow that rock in our throat we call pride, and realize that "pit bull" is a generic term that reffers to any athletic bulldog type or bullterrier type dog, and so we need to change that generic term in OUR lingo and thus accross the board.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

redog said:


> thats because i represent the dogs and not any shelter. give me a breed specific rescue anyday


:goodpost: :clap: :goodpost: me too!, I alway represent the animals when working with resuce; not the politics or the organization.


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## IzzosMommy (Mar 30, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> I started in rescue; first with wolves that were pets in Oklahoma, and then later to SPCA where I was certified in Euthanasia and as a Vet Tech. Opening day I had to euthanize 26 dogs a day ( I remember that number because it was the minimum; most places dont realize over population and parvo springs up from nowhere) So .. SPCA prevents that by having a dogs/cats day numbered. We also got goats, pigs, hawks from time to time but those are all easy saves.
> 
> The problem always lies with the accountability of people. .. ITS all a HUSTLE.. so to speak ... LOL
> 
> ...


:goodpost:Thank you =]


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

IzzosMommy said:


> Honestly I give you grief because of the way you state your opinion it comes of as rude .. you need to choose your words more appropriately instead of calling people fools and what not . Its rude and honestly no one wants to hear anyone's side of anything when they choose to debate like that .. I take it personally because I am a "sick" dog owner and I am no fool . I also used to work at a shelter and I know what happens in them and to the Cull dogs in them .. Ive seen alot of bad things , alot more then I have ever wished to see .. also being mature is not calling people names who do not agree with your side of things .. I didnt say anything negative about you until as you stated as a "whole" we are fools .. I wouldnt pick your post apart if there werent derogatory things in them that made me feel like I have to .. just because I havent spoken with you directly doesnt mean I cant see what you write on every thread and believe me there are alot of things I have wanted to say but havent until you started talking about something that I hold dear to my heart wheither you like it or not. maybe you dont see where im coming from maybe you do oh well .. like you said no harm done and things that are so personal get heated at times ..
> 
> And if you want to know why I can understand where sadie is coming from and not you .. its not that I dont get where you are coming from .. look at the way sadie was speaking to me and then you .. thats why I pick you apart .. thats why everytime I comment on anything you say its negative .. because you get what you put out and honestly all I ever see you say is negative things that can offend people and I dont think you realize it ..


Well all i got to say is your the only one right now making it something it doesn't have to be.. Look at who i'm calling a fool.. Because they are... Someone adopting (for instance) that has no clue about these dogs, believes its all in how you raise them, takes that dog to the dog park every week, turns out to start showing signs of HA but shrug it off because their "pitty was just grumpy" and ends up killing another dog at the park or attacking a person.. Those people are FOOLS and i don't care if that offends you or not. It is what it is and you cant cure stupid.

I'm blunt, to the point and i don't sugar coat things. I'm glad your rescue worked out for you and for me in the end i have no problem with you..In fact i don't recall really ever talking to you until this thread.. If you have a problem though with my posts just don't read em.

I see where you are coming from i just don't see a point in it, i'm not calling the "good ones" that adopt and do right, understand and willing to educate themselves fools or morons for adopting. Unless you want to group everyone as one that adopts that is.. Which i wouldn't.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> I started in rescue; first with wolves that were pets in Oklahoma, and then later to SPCA where I was certified in Euthanasia and as a Vet Tech. Opening day I had to euthanize 26 dogs a day ( I remember that number because it was the minimum; most places dont realize over population and parvo springs up from nowhere) So .. SPCA prevents that by having a dogs/cats day numbered. We also got goats, pigs, hawks from time to time but those are all easy saves.
> 
> The problem always lies with the accountability of people. .. ITS all a HUSTLE.. so to speak ... LOL
> 
> ...


Yep, need i say more? :cheers:



Sadie said:


> Dave you are like one in a million of the shelter/rescue guys that I would vouch for and say this guy does understand the breed and is not clueless or blind when adopting them out. I wish more shelter rescues groups were more educated about the breed to begin with instead of being more into the cause of rescue that they become blind sided to the breeds nature and place these dogs under false hopes or pretenses. Understanding breeds is very important wether your a pet owner or working within a shelter organization.


:goodpost: Exactly!! Redog is an exception and is far, FAR from the norm of those that do adopt. If everyone was like redog when it came to adopting/rescuing than the world wouldn't be so... :stick:


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## Trojanboi400 (Sep 1, 2011)

Maybe this is for another thread but I feel that "breeding", whether BYB or pup mill, seems to be more of a Saturday afternoon hobby when, personally, I think it should be a profession right up there with vets, doctors, teachers, painters, etc. I guarantee you won't hear people talking about getting work done by a BYD(entist) or BYPlastic surgeon. 
If you've ever been around somewhere & a person has a cute little "pit bull" puppy, the convo goes a little like this: 

"Ohhh that's a cute lil rednose/bluenose pup. How old is he/she? Are you going to breed/stud her/him? They would make some cute pups."

IMO Breeders should have to be licensed & trained by some kind of tech school or something to produce & sell puppies of any breed.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

a phD in genetics lol.


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