# APBT: Where does the breed go from here?



## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Now i know there has been a lot of talk lately on here with what an APBT means, the history and what we consider from dogmen and owners alike what makes an American Pit Bull Terrier.

I am making this thread in regards to present day and where we should take the breed into the future. What should breeders be breeding for? Continue the path for game? Show? Sport? Work?

Define your answer and explain why you feel what you do and if possible define your answer. (i.e if you believe we should breed for work, what kind of work? why do you feel this is the direction the breed should take?)

I believe as a whole breeders and owners need to come together and have the same path in mind. The chapter of dog fighting in this country is over in general, i believe we need to preserve this breed but at the same time is it logical to keep producing "game dogs" when the gameness can't even be proven or used for original intended purposes?

Discuss away!


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

This is going to turn into another arguement rather quickly. We have beaten this topic to death. I will get my pop corn ready


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Nice man, but it will never be that easy. There will always be dogmen underground. Its like I was saying in a post a min ago. Its almost like the TRUE pit will fade away. IF its not game - its not pit - goes on then what do you call it? The ridiculous overdone bullies is taking over. Eventually in the future kids will see they aint muscle bound pits. And if people show their pit and weight pull , search and rescue, hunt, etc. Its not what the breed was created for. So what is it and What happens to this breed (APBT)


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Theres no harm done in a honest debate. If you don't feel like contributing you didn't really need to post.
It may be a heated discussion as i realize many have different opinions on the subject and are passionate about what they believe, which is good. But that shouldn't stop people from talking about it and making a good read for the novice.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

predator control, stock dogs.. keep it alive ! Bulldoggin' the fast pace world of cement, digital, and plastic cards is all an illusion, move to the country  go back far enough thats where we all come from ..

look at this police dogs.. LOL the one cop looks pleased!


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

It may sound like a bi#$% thang, but I dont tihnk I could fight my dog to death. I love them too much to see them get hurt lol


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## Indie (Sep 29, 2010)

It'll go back to how it used to be.. Good game dogs will be hard to come by, and the true APBT will go back underground. There will, however be a by product in the form of am. bullies and show APBTs.

If I had my way, I'd say we should breed for show/working dogs. Dogs that have a purpose besides looking pretty. BUT- there are as many reasons to breed as there are "breeders," so there will probably always be several different types of pit bulls.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

Indie said:


> It'll go back to how it used to be.. Good game dogs will be hard to come by, and the true APBT will go back underground. There will, however be a by product in the form of am. bullies and show APBTs.
> 
> If I had my way, I'd say we should breed for show/working dogs. Dogs that have a purpose besides looking pretty. BUT- there are as many reasons to breed as there are "breeders," so there will probably always be several different types of pit bulls.


Yep, yep:goodpost:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Indie said:


> It'll go back to how it used to be.. Good game dogs will be hard to come by, and the true APBT will go back underground. There will, however be a by product in the form of am. bullies and show APBTs.
> 
> If I had my way, I'd say we should breed for show/working dogs. Dogs that have a purpose besides looking pretty. BUT- there are as many reasons to breed as there are "breeders," so there will probably always be several different types of pit bulls.


Which is unfortunate, a pure show dog in any form isn't a dog to me. All dogs should carry some purpose other than looking good and being a family dog.

How realistic do you guys think the breed can survive underground like the old days? With BSL spreading its slowly getting harder for the breeders producing real APBT's true to the roots so one has to question, is that really a feasible outcome?

There is also the question of if it is, what do owners and dogmen do with these dogs? Dog fighting can't stay underground forever without surfacing and many wont take that risk now in days.

If you believe it isn't possible, what do you think the closest out come would be? Owning a proven dog isn't really doing anything for the dog or the owner if the dog in their hands doesn't use that ability. Is there anything close enough, legal that can still keep the drive and all else?

If you lose the game aspect the breed may not be the same however there are still other characteristics of the apbt that differ too much from the AmStaff and Bullies.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I will continue to bring in new dogs that are true to the original form and breed characteristics. When you start changing what the dogs were bred for you start changing the breed. Look at the AST's, they were APBT's but they started breeding for show and the dogs temperament and looks changed. If I wanted working AST's I would buy AST's, I want APBT's! I have working/sports dogs but I do not breed for sports. If I did that I would change the characteristics of the breed to suit better for sports like Schutzhund. If I was breeding Sch dogs I would have edgier dogs but again that gets away from what they were intended to do. When I breed I want high drive dog but one to stick to the original form not to suit what sports I am doing.

I know there is always talk about calling dogs gamebred but for lack of a better word i would rather have dogs with a gamebred pedigree vs a show pedigree because I have found they are more true to it's original form. I do not know if I want a "game" dog for sports and we all know a whole litter did not produce game dogs but that did not change the fact they were true APBT's. Barca one of my pups reminds me of what dogmen pre 1976 would be looking for and he gives me BIG problems working. It is hard to explain unless you see how different he is from my other dogs. However other pups from that litter were fantastic and true APBT's and they keep to it's original temperament and breed characteristics.

Long story short give me a good well bred bulldog and I'm happy! I do not think we need to change the breed as a whole that has already happened. We have petbulls and that is the majority of dogs that people own. They are not true to the breeds original form and are more suited for you average owner. The problem with true APBT's is the lack of responsible owners. Just like how I got Barca back from his first home. She could not handle a real bulldog after owning AST's, she thought she was ready but they are just a whole other animal than what she was use to.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> I will continue to bring in new dogs that are true to the original form and breed characteristics. When you start changing what the dogs were bred for you start changing the breed. Look at the AST's, they were APBT's but they started breeding for show and the dogs temperament and looks changed. If I wanted working AST's I would buy AST's, I want APBT's! I have working/sports dogs but I do not breed for sports. If I did that I would change the characteristics of the breed to suit better for sports like Schutzhund. If I was breeding Sch dogs I would have edgier dogs but again that gets away from what they were intended to do. When I breed I want high drive dog but one to stick to the original form not to suit what sports I am doing.
> 
> I know there is always talk about calling dogs gamebred but for lack of a better word i would rather have dogs with a gamebred pedigree vs a show pedigree because I have found they are more true to it's original form. I do not know if I want a "game" dog for sports and we all know a whole litter did not produce game dogs but that did not change the fact they were true APBT's. Barca one of my pups reminds me of what dogmen pre 1976 would be looking for and he gives me BIG problems working. It is hard to explain unless you see how different he is from my other dogs. However other pups from that litter were fantastic and true APBT's and they keep to it's original temperament and breed characteristics.
> 
> Long story short give me a good well bred bulldog and I'm happy! I do not think we need to change the breed as a whole that has already happened. We have petbulls and that is the majority of dogs that people own. They are not true to the breeds original form and are more suited for you average owner. The problem with true APBT's is the lack of responsible owners. Just like how I got Barca back from his first home. She could not handle a real bulldog after owning AST's, she thought she was ready but they are just a whole other animal than what she was use to.


I can agree with this. :clap: :goodpost:

What should we do with the true APBT's though? I don't believe in breeders producing dogs for a purpose and that purpose not being accomplished. Does the real dogmen and real dogs just go underground while "petbulls" and other forms stay in the public eye? I could see the potential of disaster as its obvious the world of APBT's are not in the understanding and close circle as they used to be. However i could also see this being potentially the best suited out come without completely changing direction.

If the gameness is lost, theoretically, what would be next? Would we consider these dogs smaller ASTs? Or would a new breed with a new name stem off the appearance of these dogs?

My biggest problem with the underground vision, or fear rather, is BSL.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

That is what makes me sad is we are losing our breed in it;s original form. I can have a bunch of gamebred dogs but after 4 generations of breeding them together are they still gamebred? Even if I select the one original to it's form do they start to become just show or working dogs without proven dogs in the first 4 generations? Lots of questions and not answers just opinions.

Dogs will always be tested to a point I think whether it is underground or in other countries but I would hate to have to import the American Pit Bull Terrier from another country.


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## SuthernStyles (Nov 7, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> I can agree with this. :clap: :goodpost:
> 
> If the gameness is lost, theoretically, what would be next? Would we consider these dogs smaller ASTs? Or would a new breed with a new name stem off the appearance of these dogs?
> 
> My biggest problem with the underground vision, or fear rather, is BSL.


what I been saying


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

@ PK :goodpost: .. good sense as usual  Barca is just the kinda dogs Im used to  I wish I wasnt having trying times last year, have a feeling me and one of that brood would be like peas and carrots.. LOL


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

SuthernStyles said:


> what I been saying


If you see what some are saying .. its all in the beholder..

what are you doing the blood line? Keeping it pure or scatterbreeding it out??

For alot of us the pure stuff is right next door, or down the road on the left, :woof: there is no question if game is lost for a good deal of APBT owners cause we already have the real deal and know by proof and error that the working stock is the best dog mentally and physically.

SHOW dogs should be those elite working dogs with superb looks too! .. I love to see those dogs with both titles of the early days .. ewwwweeeee... like stratton said.. back then ya didnt have an issue with it as the dogs were bred pure and culled often.The human aggressive dogs were the GSDs, Rotties, Dobies, G.Snzr, even St Benards were known for guard dog skills back then while the lil bulldogs aka APBTs would go home with anybody pleased as a 5wk puppy LOL Hell most of mine will but they will just as pleasingly work dog that big dog that thinks he wants some.. up:

So yeah true APBTs are not for everyone, I used to tell people to get a Bull Terrier instead, but now that the Bully stock is here I tell them to get either or.. unless ready for the long haul.. and breeders should be ready to keep every dog.. just good ethics but the populous does not have the the dogs in true form although a good portion of proven dogs in other countries originate with the same stock or out the same stock as the rest of us bulldog/APBT owners of dogs in true working form.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> I will continue to bring in new dogs that are true to the original form and breed characteristics. When you start changing what the dogs were bred for you start changing the breed. Look at the AST's, they were APBT's but they started breeding for show and the dogs temperament and looks changed. If I wanted working AST's I would buy AST's, I want APBT's! I have working/sports dogs but I do not breed for sports. If I did that I would change the characteristics of the breed to suit better for sports like Schutzhund. If I was breeding Sch dogs I would have edgier dogs but again that gets away from what they were intended to do. When I breed I want high drive dog but one to stick to the original form not to suit what sports I am doing.
> 
> I know there is always talk about calling dogs gamebred but for lack of a better word i would rather have dogs with a gamebred pedigree vs a show pedigree because I have found they are more true to it's original form. I do not know if I want a "game" dog for sports and we all know a whole litter did not produce game dogs but that did not change the fact they were true APBT's. Barca one of my pups reminds me of what dogmen pre 1976 would be looking for and he gives me BIG problems working. It is hard to explain unless you see how different he is from my other dogs. However other pups from that litter were fantastic and true APBT's and they keep to it's original temperament and breed characteristics.
> 
> Long story short give me a good well bred bulldog and I'm happy! I do not think we need to change the breed as a whole that has already happened. We have petbulls and that is the majority of dogs that people own. They are not true to the breeds original form and are more suited for you average owner. The problem with true APBT's is the lack of responsible owners. Just like how I got Barca back from his first home. She could not handle a real bulldog after owning AST's, she thought she was ready but they are just a whole other animal than what she was use to.


:goodpost: I think they should be worked in some form or other.Whether it be agility,wp,Sch,or hog hunting,etc.They have the drive and willingness to want to do it.I think all the same blood that's here should just keep being bred together to keep the lines pure and just breed for some other work for them.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

dixieland said:


> :goodpost: I think they should be worked in some form or other.Whether it be agility,wp,Sch,or hog hunting,etc.They have the drive and willingness to want to do it.I think all the same blood that's here should just keep being bred together to keep the lines pure and just breed for some other work for them.


So are you saying the gameness should be "left behind" this breed and focus more on breeding for agility and drive? Just trying to make sure i get what your going for


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Not necessarily.If you have blood that stems off of game dogs and has been proven then by all means keep breeding that blood for it's intended purpose.But the blood that has only proven dogs back at least 5 generations,for example, and nothing newer has already had some of the gameness removed anyways.So why not just keep breeding this blood for new purposes or new work if you will since if you put it in a box it probably wouldn't fare too well anyways.
I hope that makes sense.Alot of times on here I know what I want to say but then have a hard time explaining it once it's time to put it down.:flush:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

gameness is half the dog... without it.. its just a dog easily dominated by other working dogs in their working form.. MIND you half the bandogs used real game bred dogs to cross with for drive including the Tosa and others.. IF people intentionally start breeding for other than game then the mentality of the dogs will become entirely unpredictable because thats half the reason of the test .. a sound mentality proven under pressure  I want a dog off that stuff, no curs allowed; it has a meaning in the mtns and plains just as it does in the []


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

see everything you're saying makes sense Stan.So as usual I think I meant something else.:hammer:Hold on.....I'm trying to think of how to put what I'm thinking .:rofl:


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Ok let me see if I can explain this better to where maybe even I can understand it and it not be to long winded.lol
The whole purpose of the apbt is for the box.So you breed for that purpose if you can.For example,if you have a dog with the lines and dogs in it's pedigree like that of Sadie's dog,then there would be no other way to go with that than the box.Of course here you can't openly breed for that so you would have no other choice than to ship your dogs outside of the country to breed for that purpose.
If you have dogs who's last champions in it's lines are a few generations back and you know that you don't want to try to bring your lines back to their original purpose then why not breed for some other type of work than to breed for show or pet?I don't mean breed for sport but breed for these types of homes in mind for your dogs.
Does that make any more sense?lol


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## aussie monster pitt (Mar 3, 2011)

if we lose the gameness we lose the breed it will end up being just like the AST imo why call it an american PIT bull terrier if theres not proven dogs within say 10 gens?
without the underground dogmen keeping the breed true to its name the breed would lose the mentality it was made for even working dogs need some level of gameness a hog dog needs to be game enough to take on a 300lb pig


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

I guess I'm still not coming across as clear as what I was trying to.
I'm not talking about breeding the gameness out of them.I was trying to say something to the effect of seeing as how unless it's being done underground and still providing our dogs with their intended job,would it be such a bad idea to use them for other jobs?Such as hunting,agility,sch,etc....They have the drive,why not use it?I mean what is the point in owning a dog with an awesome ped if's it's just gonna sit on your yard on a chain?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> That is what makes me sad is we are losing our breed in it;s original form. *I can have a bunch of gamebred dogs but after 4 generations of breeding them together are they still gamebred? *Even if I select the one original to it's form do they start to become just show or working dogs without proven dogs in the first 4 generations? Lots of questions and not answers just opinions.
> 
> Dogs will always be tested to a point I think whether it is underground or in other countries but I would hate to have to import the American Pit Bull Terrier from another country.


Lisa that's when you have to breed those dog's back to (game dog's) to keep the tested dog's within the first 4. If Bogart were to ever be bred he is getting bred back to a proven dog. That is the only way to do it to keep them true to form. After 4 generations of no tested stock yes they become watered down show  Have to reintroduce game back into your breedings every generation to keep those dog's honest  This is how dog men do it so it's not an opinion. If you are breeding game dog's or performance bred dog's you have to continue to breed them to their purpose. This is how the staff became a staff after so many generations of untested dog's gameness becomes watered down and eventually non existent. You can't keep game in these dog's if you don't test for it every generation. Now not every joe blow need's a performance bred dog. The general population just need's a pet bull they can adopt one from a shelter.

I thank god for the laws in other country's wether it be right or wrong those guys over seas and the dog men under ground are continuing my dog's legacy. If I wanted a show dog I would have gotten an Amstaff. People keep saying that fighting doesn't make these dog's APBT's well I disagree completely without gameness and game testing this breed doesn't exist. No cur bred  allowed on this yard.

As long as these dog's are being worked in some sport than they are doing a Job bulldogs need to be worked on a regular basis wether in the box or on a hog or in shutz ect ect. If your breeding bulldogs you need to be breeding these dog's to tested stock to keep the gameness alive and true to form.

Edit: The closest stop to us is Mexico ain't that right FH? lmao!!!


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

So is that how you're still seeing champions in the last gen?Are they all getting imported in from other countries?I mean I know that dogs are still being fought here,but aren't those people keeping paper peds now?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah some keep handwritten ped's. And they import game tested stock as well. Some just test dog's and break law's but if they are smart they are not going to keep ped's on fed's online or register them with the registries. And they will keep their contacts to a select few. Another words closed circles.


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## JayHawk (Apr 4, 2010)

The rise in popularity of the breed has been its downfall, the solid, well bred true to breed dogs will always be around but like GSD and Rotts their popularity has lead to anyone and everyone who has 2 dogs breeding them for proffit and flooding the country with dogs with poor structure,health,ability.

the rise of the Am. Bully has had a major effect on the breed and until the ABKC closes their open regestry and it truley becomes its own breed. This will continue to be an issue as long as people continue to buy poorly bred APBTs for $1000+ just to breed to their friends poorly bred dog so they can sell their "RARE BLUE NOSE PITS" to some else who sees it as an oportunity to start breeding for proffit 

I pesonaly am against BSL but I believe that they may have actualy benifieted the breed by lowering the number of these back BYBs

I currently have 2 dogs my male is J/RB out of a champ/champ breeding my Female pup is out of a GRCHV/GRCH breeding and I have no where close to a $1,000 tied up in both of them together. nor do I have any intention on breeding. there are already enough quality dogs out there and far far too many poor quality dogs

The point is the Good dogs will always be available you just have to wade thru alot more crap now days to find them


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## paintedwildd (Mar 20, 2011)

JayHawk said:


> The rise in popularity of the breed has been its downfall, the solid, well bred true to breed dogs will always be around but like GSD and Rotts their popularity has lead to anyone and everyone who has 2 dogs breeding them for proffit and flooding the country with dogs with poor structure,health,ability.
> 
> the rise of the Am. Bully has had a major effect on the breed and until the ABKC closes their open regestry and it truley becomes its own breed. This will continue to be an issue as long as people continue to buy poorly bred APBTs for $1000+ just to breed to their friends poorly bred dog so they can sell their "RARE BLUE NOSE PITS" to some else who sees it as an oportunity to start breeding for proffit
> 
> ...


I disagree with this because I have family in the UK where there is BSL against the APBT and not the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and there are more pit bulls than ever before. It's not controlled and most are pet bulls with an am bully look to them because bigger is better, I'm afraid the real APBT is either lost forever or kept underground with some dogmen somewhere.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

People need to realize their urban and civilized laws and cement are not the way of life everywhere.. NOR do they need to be..

The American Pit Bull Terrier came about from Staffordshire Bull Terriers (the Original Bulldog and Pit Bulldog of England Not that half pug dog known as the English Bulldog)

From that stock [] fighting thrived in America.. bulldogs from those breedings went throughout the south and west and were bred in different ways and indeed have become different strains.. If you breed your dogs for game the size and conformation takes shape on its own.. Tosas that are matched have evolved into the largest game dog in the world and they look like giant APBTs... Tosas are very HUMAN AGGRESIVE; BUT THEY ARE NOT APBTS .. In japan APBT matches are seperate from Tosa matches.. There is no match for the APBT because it is a true game dog, a match dog, a dog of prey, that has no contender other than another game dog.. since before it came over seas, and perfect by Americans promoted by the police, cajun rules rules.. and if you breed for anything other than what the men who created the breed or strain .. then you are not breeding APBTs... 
American Pit Bull Terriers are game bred dogs period. Everything else is just a bulldog or a bandog... dont get me wrong I have a love for a non proven bulldog doesnt mean he hasnt got it; just means I havent proven my dogs I just gather them from proven stock and like sadie says will find a proven bitch to breed to..

If the game strains aren't your thing.. your breeding bandogs/bulldogs. The smartest thing Diane Jessup has said is that she has bandogs.. cause she dont breed or match for game  Just cause your dog is registered doesnt mean its bona fide.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

my next pit will be from box stock.or i'll get another ACD or even A Malinois.


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## LOVE MY DOGS (May 3, 2011)

Hi! I am new here (as of today!) but I just wanted to throw in my 2cents.

cruelty is not an option. No dog should be "game-tested" or taken "underground" etc. just to "keep a true APBT" So what if the Pitbull was originally bred to fight...it shouldn't be forced to live a life of abuse. Humans did this to the dog world. If that means it is now a "new" breed, so be it. NO animal should fought. Let's back off from the cruelty here. 

Since pits are such a athletic breed, there are many sports the dog can participate in. I am sure that the dog is a lot happier this way rather than have a chewed up face and bleed to death (or have their lovely owner kill them)...in my opinion, it goes against what nature intended. But what is done is done (that is the sick world we live in!) all we can do now is move forward in a sport that doesn't involve abuse. 

Anywho, I am new here and I have 3 pitbulls and 3 other dogs (oh and two kitties who are the boss of the house!) haha...


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## LOVE MY DOGS (May 3, 2011)

Well...actually I have two bullies and one pit...haha


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## Nizmo (Jan 15, 2009)

true apbt's dont need to be pushed into a match. they will jump into that [] like no ones business.
welcome to the forum  post pics of ur babies when you have chance :roll:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Darn straight it's only cruel when you put a dog in the box that doesn't want to be there in the first place which any real dog man is not going to do they are not there to match cur's . Remember these dog's were bred to fight just because it's illegal doesn't change the fight in these dogs. Dog matching when done properly is not cruel it's what they were bred for and they love to fight these dog's don't no the meaning of quit. You can take the bulldog out the box but you can't take the fight out of the bulldog. People have the right to think whatever they want. However these are bulldogs not poodles. Until you've seen a real game dog go to town in the box you only base your opinions off of what they show on TV which is a bunch of hog wash.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

nuff said...... :clap:


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## LOVE MY DOGS (May 3, 2011)

Hmm...I can't seem to ad any pictures to any album... sorry I feel so dumb! I just get a big white screen! I tried to upload...how do I post pictures on threads like this?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

And before you or anyone else ask's or assume that I fight dog's I don't my dog's are family dog's bred down from game dogs. I don't match dog's but I am a strong supporter and believer of breed preservation. These dog's can't be preserved in a show ring. My dog's will never see a box and will be worked in legal sports. But I am proud of where they come from and have a great respect for the dog men of the past and present who are keeping these dog's true to form.

My happy critter's Not a mark on them doing what they do ... Living the happy life.


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## JayHawk (Apr 4, 2010)

...................


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Correction it's impressive what one can learn from a Mentor  And it's not spelled enternet it's internet  We all start somewhere I was lucky enough to have found the mentor I did with real breed life exp unlike the internet dogger imposter's who troll through forums learning from people who have never had any real exp with these dogs.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

JayHawk said:


> *The rise in popularity of the breed has been its downfall*, the solid, well bred true to breed dogs will always be around but like GSD and Rotts their popularity has lead to anyone and everyone who has 2 dogs breeding them for proffit and flooding the country with dogs with poor structure,health,ability.
> 
> the rise of the Am. Bully has had a major effect on the breed and until the ABKC closes their open regestry and it truley becomes its own breed. This will continue to be an issue as long as people continue to buy poorly bred APBTs for $1000+ just to breed to their friends poorly bred dog so they can sell their "RARE BLUE NOSE PITS" to some else who sees it as an oportunity to start breeding for proffit
> 
> ...


:goodpost:I agree with this .. The biggest mistake was dog men putting these dog's in the hand of the general public. But it is what it is.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

dixieland said:


> Ok let me see if I can explain this better to where maybe even I can understand it and it not be to long winded.lol
> The whole purpose of the apbt is for the box.So you breed for that purpose if you can.For example,if you have a dog with the lines and dogs in it's pedigree like that of Sadie's dog,then there would be no other way to go with that than the box.Of course here you can't openly breed for that so you would have no other choice than to ship your dogs outside of the country to breed for that purpose.
> If you have dogs who's last champions in it's lines are a few generations back and you know that you don't want to try to bring your lines back to their original purpose then why not breed for some other type of work than to breed for show or pet?I don't mean breed for sport but breed for these types of homes in mind for your dogs.
> Does that make any more sense?lol


That is what I was talking about if you start breeding for another purpose like for sports then you change the breed. To keep them true to their original form you have to breed for the original purpose.



Sadie said:


> Lisa that's when you have to breed those dog's back to (game dog's) to keep the tested dog's within the first 4. If Bogart were to ever be bred he is getting bred back to a proven dog. That is the only way to do it to keep them true to form. After 4 generations of no tested stock yes they become watered down show  Have to reintroduce game back into your breedings every generation to keep those dog's honest  This is how dog men do it so it's not an opinion. If you are breeding game dog's or performance bred dog's you have to continue to breed them to their purpose. This is how the staff became a staff after so many generations of untested dog's gameness becomes watered down and eventually non existent. You can't keep game in these dog's if you don't test for it every generation. Now not every joe blow need's a performance bred dog. The general population just need's a pet bull they can adopt one from a shelter.
> 
> I thank god for the laws in other country's wether it be right or wrong those guys over seas and the dog men under ground are continuing my dog's legacy. If I wanted a show dog I would have gotten an Amstaff. People keep saying that fighting doesn't make these dog's APBT's well I disagree completely without gameness and game testing this breed doesn't exist. No cur bred  allowed on this yard.
> 
> ...


That was my point if you do not have that in the 4 generation pedigree then they stop being the same. I am in a hard place because when I get to that point in my breeding programs I still want to breed to dogs I can UKC register. Since the UKC closed open registration I am limited on what I can breed to. I am going to buy Zorro sperm and just keep breeding back to him, I paid for his UKC registration before it closed for that reason.  The only reason I need UKC papers is so I can continue to compete in Obed and Rally.



LOVE MY DOGS said:


> Hi! I am new here (as of today!) but I just wanted to throw in my 2cents.
> 
> cruelty is not an option. No dog should be "game-tested" or taken "underground" etc. just to "keep a true APBT" So what if the Pitbull was originally bred to fight...it shouldn't be forced to live a life of abuse. Humans did this to the dog world. If that means it is now a "new" breed, so be it. NO animal should fought. Let's back off from the cruelty here.
> 
> ...


I know you are new so I will say you need to research more about what dog fighting was really about pre 1976, not what you see on animal planet. Dogs were not forced to fight, if they did not want to fight they were considered a cur and not fought. Only dogs who truly loved to fight would be allowed to continue and not to the death like the HSUS would like you to think. It would be no different from a MMA fighter stepping into the ring, they do not beat an unwilling opponent to death. There are rules which they go by and you can tap out or "scratch". What you see on TV is a bunch of punks that think they know what fighting dogs is and the abuse the put the dogs through. You see pictures of dogs torn up and missing faces, that is not what it was about. You can look back at dogs like Jeep and see they had natural ears and some scars but they were not maimed like they portray dog fighting on tv. These dogs were fought multiple times and still have ears and their face, that is because it was a sport and not dog tearing apart a defenseless dog.

There is a lot to learn and we all have to start somewhere. If you want to post pictures please do so in the picture forum and if you need more help PM me


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

If you need to reintroduce the fight back into them then whats the point? People evolve, why cant these dogs? Let the dogs work with other traits they are known for. Fighting is just one trait and not every APBT has that trait to begin with. Why have to put ANY dog at risk to preserve what could be redirected to something else? I don't want to misread, but I feel you are you saying Its ok, if its not your dog being fought? The people who started these dogs obviously knew there was more to them than fighting or they would never have let the public get their hands on them and become beloved pets.

Dog fighting is horrible no matter who does it. Just because its not your dog, doesn't make it right, its not legal for a reason. Its not humane in any form, Old dog fighters or new illegal dog fighters. I am sure of you gave a pup something they loved they would attack just as much as he would if you put another dog in there, in some cases. My dogs looks at basketballs way more aggressive than another dog. Just because a dog could appear great at something doesn't mean thats the only way for the dog to live out its life. Just because a dog would eat the entire bags of biscuits or entire bag of food, you would not allow that to happen since it could kill your dog. Why then try to make sense of old dog fighters or insists keeping a line needs to have fighting back into them. IF you are not fighting your dogs and they have more than enough drive for other activities, why bring that back in the line? Why not let is evolve like everything else in life does?

Times change, people change and evolve, why can't dogs change and evolve naturally without human intervention trying to force them back to the dark ages when it was legal?



performanceknls said:


> It would be no different from a MMA fighter stepping into the ring, they do not beat an unwilling opponent to death. There are rules which they go by and you can tap out or "scratch".


a MMA fighter has a brain and a mouth to voice and make their own decisions. How can you even compare the two? They also have the choice to leave the ring, dogs don't get that choice. Its run by dog men, not their own inhibitions.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lisa that sounds like a plan


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

ames said:


> If you need to reintroduce the fight back into them then whats the point? People evolve, why cant these dogs? Let the dogs work with other traits they are known for. Fighting is just one trait and not every APBT has that trait to begin with. Why have to put ANY dog at risk to preserve what could be redirected to something else? I don't want to misread, but I feel you are you saying Its ok, if its not your dog being fought? The people who started these dogs obviously knew there was more to them than fighting or they would never have let the public get their hands on them and become beloved pets.
> 
> Dog fighting is horrible no matter who does it. Just because its not your dog, doesn't make it right, its not legal for a reason. Its not humane in any form, Old dog fighters or new illegal dog fighters. I am sure of you gave a pup something they loved they would attack just as much as he would if you put another dog in there, in some cases. My dogs looks at basketballs way more aggressive than another dog. Just because a dog could appear great at something doesn't mean thats the only way for the dog to live out its life. Just because a dog would eat the entire bags of biscuits or entire bag of food, you would not allow that to happen since it could kill your dog. Why then try to make sense of old dog fighters or insists keeping a line needs to have fighting back into them. IF you are not fighting your dogs and they have more than enough drive for other activities, why bring that back in the line? Why not let is evolve like everything else in life does?
> 
> ...


I am not suggesting everyone who own's these dog's should fight them. The general population has no business owning a fighting breed. Most people don't even own game bred dog's they just own staff's or APBT mixes or bullies. I am saying that for those dog men left in the world still breeding these dog's for the box I am ok with that and I am a supporter of preservation I understand that you may not feel that way and it's ok. Dog fighter's are not Dog men. And like Lisa said pre 76 there was an honorable way to care for these dog's and match these dog's that is not shown on Animal Planet or other media outlet's. Game dog's are NOT forced to fight it's BRED into them gameness and DA are not the same. But over all the dog's fight because they are wired genetically by dog men to fight. They are not trained drugged or forced to fight. A real game dog fight's because it want's to not because it's handler tell it to. And yes dog's do get the choice to leave the ring because a dog man doesn't take a dog to the ring that is going to jump the box and quit. Cur's don't get fed or fought in the game dog world. I know it's hard for some people to accept but these dog's ARE fighting dog's first that is what they are regardless of the present laws. They are still the worlds finest gladiator. If your saying that these dog's should evolve into show pet's what your saying is the APBT should no longer exist. If these dog's are not preserved there is no more APBT .. Don't you get it this how the Amstaff came to be. So if game testing died there would be no more APBT we would all own Staff's. I don't want a staff if I wanted one I would have gotten one.


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## LOVE MY DOGS (May 3, 2011)

I totally agree with ames!! couldn't have said it better!!!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

What I read, was fighting needs to be re-introduced to these dogs 4th or 5th generations in order to keep the fight in them (paraphrasing here).  maybe I misunderstood but if your not fighting them, why re-introduce it just to have that quality present if you don't even care to use it for fighting?

I understand its illegal, are you saying you think there are still reputable dog men to this day fighting these dogs like they did back in England when they were "created" by dog men? ? than once again, I ask why would you want to continue that when its not humane or legal.

I am really trying to understand your opinion and train of thought on this issue Sadie, seriously I am. I know that AP and movies depict ghetto dog fighting. I understand it was a sport, but so was **** fighting and bull fighting and I think those are also just as disgusting and deplorable. why it is, but I don't get why you would own an APBT that you do not fight, if you feel thats all the APBT is game tested for? there are many other things they excel at besides fighting.

I also don't understand why you cant accept some true lovers of the breed, like yourself, do not agree that the fight needs to stay in them. There are other driving qualities other than their fight. Which in the olden days they WERE recognized for more than just fighting.


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## LOVE MY DOGS (May 3, 2011)

oops sorry the pictures are so big....still getting the hang of this picture thing...


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

ames said:


> What I read, was fighting needs to be re-introduced to these dogs 4th or 5th generations in order to keep the fight in them (paraphrasing here). maybe I misunderstood but if your not fighting them, why re-introduce it just to have that quality present if you don't even care to use it for fighting?
> 
> I understand its illegal, are you saying you think there are still reputable dog men to this day fighting these dogs like they did back in England when they were "created" by dog men? ? than once again, I ask why would you want to continue that when its not humane or legal.
> 
> ...


Because Ames if we bred our dog's away from gameness in another 15-20 years our dog's would be Amstaff's they would no longer be APBT's. This is my point I hear you keep saying these dog's have other qualities other than gameness and this is true. So did the Amstaff and look at what breeding them in the opposite direction did to those dogs. The Amtsaff and the APBT were the same breed genetically they are bred from the same cloth! BUT by purpose they are no longer the same breed.The APBT is a family dog YES, a loyal dog YES, a show dog YES, a working dog YES, they are all of these things and have many great abilities and qualities that surpass any breed the APBT is very diverse but they only have ONE true purpose even today and that is dog sporting. How do you think we are able to own game bred dog's nowadays? Because there are still dog's being fought and tested by dog men around the world. This is why the APBT still exists. A game dog is a TRUE APBT!! Before you could register a dog back then it had to be PROVEN first! I understand your dislike for the sport itself and I don't expect the general population to understand it. It's not for people to understand. All I am saying is in order for these dog's to be preserved every generation of breedings their has to be proven stock introduced back into the dogs. That doesn't mean I have to fight Bogart I can breed him to an already tested dog. As long as one of the parent's are tested you are keeping these dog's true to form. I own a bulldog AKA a game bred dog because I wanted to own the truest example for the breed I wanted a dog bred for working drive, prey drive, and to the original standard in which these dog's were created. I didn't buy my dog's from a show breeder. If I wanted a show bred dog from show bred lines I would have gotten a Staff! Game Bloodlines/Game Dogs are the TRUEST standard for the APBT. These dog's didn't start off in a show ring they started off in the box. So the bloodlines that have been preserved for 100's of years come from dog men carrying on what those old timer's started. You could call me a fancier of the breed someone who believes in preservation by no means does that mean I personally fight my dog's but I am not against dog men fighting them where it's legal. I want to own this breed in it's rawest and truest form without these dogs being ruined by show breeder's. Fighting dog's back then were also family dog's, you see the dog's were fought but they were also family dogs it still doesn't change their original purpose. Dog men kept their dog's as family dog's as well. Dog men took their children to see dog matches it was an entertainment sport, a gentlemen's sport. Laws have changed and people have changed this is true but that doesn't mean lover's of the breed who love these dog's for their intended purpose shouldn't be able to enjoy them and continue to breed them true to form. I don't know any other way to explain it to you as I have been as clear as possible on where I stand as I stated I respect your right not to appreciate dog sporting. But that doesn't mean other's don't.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Because Ames if we bred our dog's away from gameness in another 15-20 years our dog's would be Amstaff's they would no longer be APBT's. This is my point I hear you keep saying these dog's have other qualities other than gameness and this is true. So did the Amstaff and look at what breeding them in the opposite direction did to those dogs. The Amtsaff and the APBT were the same breed genetically they are bred from the same cloth! BUT by purpose they are no longer the same breed.The APBT is a family dog YES, a loyal dog YES, a show dog YES, a working dog YES, they are all of these things and have many great abilities and qualities that surpass any breed the APBT is very diverse but they only have ONE true purpose even today and that is dog sporting. How do you think we are able to own game bred dog's nowadays? Because there are still dog's being fought and tested by dog men around the world. This is why the APBT still exists. A game dog is a TRUE APBT!! Before you could register a dog back then it had to be PROVEN first! I understand your dislike for the sport itself and I don't expect the general population to understand it. It's not for people to understand. All I am saying is in order for these dog's to be preserved every generation of breedings their has to be proven stock introduced back into the dogs. That doesn't mean I have to fight Bogart I can breed him to an already tested dog. As long as one of the parent's are tested you are keeping these dog's true to form. I own a bulldog AKA a game bred dog because I wanted to own the truest example for the breed I wanted a dog bred for working drive, prey drive, and to the original standard in which these dog's were created. I didn't buy my dog's from a show breeder. If I wanted a show bred dog from show bred lines I would have gotten a Staff! Game Bloodlines/Game Dogs are the TRUEST standard for the APBT. These dog's didn't start off in a show ring they started off in the box. So the bloodlines that have been preserved for 100's of years come from dog men carrying on what those old timer's started. You could call me a fancier of the breed someone who believes in preservation by no means does that mean I personally fight my dog's but I am not against dog men fighting them where it's legal. I want to own this breed in it's rawest and truest form without these dogs being ruined by show breeder's. Fighting dog's back then were also family dog's, you see the dog's were fought but they were also family dogs it still doesn't change their original purpose. Dog men kept their dog's as family dog's as well. Dog men took their children to see dog matches it was an entertainment sport, a gentlemen's sport. Laws have changed and people have changed this is true but that doesn't mean lover's of the breed who love these dog's for their intended purpose shouldn't be able to enjoy them and continue to breed them true to form. I don't know any other way to explain it to you as I have been as clear as possible on where I stand as I stated I respect your right not to appreciate dog sporting. But that doesn't mean other's don't.


couldnt of said it better myself! :clap:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

@ Sadie :goodpost:
If we breed away from what they were intended to do we change the breed. That has been done already and it is called the American Staffordshire Terrier. I have seen a lot of show bred dogs and I love the look and I have tried to work with them like my other dogs and they are just not the same. I end up getting disappointed because they lack that extra something special that my gamebred dogs seem to have. 
Now I have had a dog who looked great on paper and be the most worthless animal I have ever fed! I say worthless in a working sense but she was a very sweet dog that I placed in a really great home. But man no drive or work ethic so she will never be bred, she is spayed and a great house pet.

Tara check this ped out
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [289822] :: RIOT

So just because they have a killer ped does not mean they will be great dogs.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I like the bottom part of Riot's ped .. Obviously because all those dog's are in Bogart's Ped 

Yes I agree Lisa just because a dog has a fabulous pedigree doesn't mean it should be bred nor does it mean the dog lives up to the paper's. Dog's make the paper's not the other way around.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

awww I didn't even see they shared dogs from citrus kennels, red dogs rock I don't know what happened my little Riot but bless her heart she just did not want to be a working dog.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes mamn Bogart's mom has all those dog's in her ped Lukane, Luka, crazy leggs, Nico and Nico Jr.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [178623] :: BARTLETTS SUGAR

I am a big fan of Stone City Kennel dogs Bogart also has MachoBuck in his ped and Baracudda..


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

performanceknls said:


> That is what I was talking about if you start breeding for another purpose like for sports then you change the breed. To keep them true to their original form you have to breed for the original purpose.
> ;


I was trying to say the same thing.You just have a much better way of saying it and I take waaaaay to long to get there.lol
I didn't mean breed for sport.Heck yes keep the game in there.But since dog fighting is widely frowned upon in this country breed with working/sporting HOMES in mind,is what I meant to say.
I would never fight a dog.But that does not mean that I am against keeping the apbt to it's truest form.I do realize that without the dogmen and dogs of old that I would not have the dogs I have and love today.Even if they are curs. But they are what got me into the breed and to start learning about it, so that in the future I can possibly get a real bulldog.
Oh and I think I kinda misunderstood the op's original question,now that I just went back and reread it.:hammer:


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

God I just went back and reread all of my posts in this thread.I confused myself!lmao.No wonder nobody has any idea of what I was trying to say!:hammer: See this is the reason why I normally stay out of these threads.lol


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Unless you are breaking the law and fighting the dogs all you have is a paper to go with your pet.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Okay People....... Louis Colby is the Godfather of this breed and the AST as well ... He along with his circle coined the terms we use and brought together the [] quality bulldogs and bandogs .. (the 1st terriers were from inbreeding [] bulldogs and producing dogs that were wirey snipey all red and red nosed, I posted a pic of them a while back and I cannot find it now Arrgh..) so the term terrier in [] dogs is all political.. in the 1800s I've shown pictures of Kempfer dogs, early boxers in the USA that were also bulldogs and intertwined with the APBT.. The boxer is nothing that it once was because just that type of anti [] propaganda.. Both dogs were used for badgers, bulls, and predators.. So what happens if the [] is no longer important?

"no one wants a manbiting fighting dog" Louis Colby .. .. ..

the mentality is proven... silly.. the sound status of the dog is proven in the [] game dogs are sound;some are wild but they are like honing missiles.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

These dogs sound mentality that is so renouned is only proven in the []. Theres no other way.. 
I myself set out to prove that they could by testing them against predators of heavy magnitude ... I was wrong..
I created an old world bulldog; similar to APBTs (game dogs) but more archaic: he doesnt care about toys, only danger and loves to be loved on(what bulldog doesnt?) anyway unless its a predator or a moose; God help the first person showing their ( Y ) ... LOL Hes not about to back down from any squab but hes not an APBT thats willing to do anything to please you, hes going to only exert himself to snaggle coyotes, harass a bear, chase a moose, whoop a lobo, and keep our grounds safe for our kids. Whats so different? I created a pure dog of prey, a bulldog, a Kempfer dog(dangerous dog).. The bulldogs proven in the [] that earned the title APBT were outstanding in mentality. Their sound behavior was unlike any other then the extreme centipede a dangerous dog, a kempfer dog, a rough old bulldog.. You see the original bulldog is the [] bulldog aka the American Pit Bull Terrier if you take certain old lines and line breed them out you get the extremes of both worlds just look at southern kennels. Terriers and bulldogs.. so its only natural that when bred just right you get the old dog of prey which DANG sure aint for everyone... LOL straight cannibals.

So heres what happens.. People take dogs registered as APBTs and breed them to  and they end up like the boxer is today and the best working dog on the planet is no longer American made... SO your asking us to sell out our American bred game dogs that are renowned through the world just as we have sold out everything else in this country? BECAUSE the APBT is [] bred and thriving throughout the world just not in the USA or UN .. LOL and even in Germany where the APBT has been illegal for some time they still import and export [] bred dogs.. LOL

your argument to avoid [] bred dogs only tells me your not interested in APBTs your interested in working bulldogs and or bandogs. APBTs are [] period. A dog had to be proven to be registered as an APBT; now registered APBTs have to be proven.. LOL When the dog is in the red zone in [] mode you see all their greats and all their faults and some faults are worth keeping some gotta be culled. No way of knowing that without the []. I think they should license and sanction that  here like they did boxing and fine all those who operate illegally ... LOL that would make much more revenue for the states on both sides of the line. NO there wouldnt be alot of dead dogs because you have guys who touch their dogs to lose the match to save them from being dead game when they've been heavily injured. Then you have those that watch em go the distance and turn a broken foot into a sure foot and keeping the dog out; a dog that was down and hobling into a dog that is like a furry of hell on earth wearing the other dog down.. all the while you have men who love their dogs, the truth is history books and stories handed down by old timers not in the tabloids and front page news.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

davidfitness83 said:


> Unless you are breaking the law and fighting the dogs all you have is a paper to go with your pet.


Not true if a dog is a performance bred dog and worked in sport's wether it be WP, Shutz, hog hunting ect they are working dog's. They are not game dog's but they most certainly are more than just your average pet. A pet is just a dog who sit's at home with it's owner and does absolutely nothing it has no working titles nor is the dog being worked towards any working titles. Pet's are just companions that's it. A working dog is not just a pet


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Not true if a dog is a performance bred dog and is worked in sport's wether it be WP, Shutz, hog hunting ect they are working dog's. They are not game dog's but they most certainly more than just your average pet.


Damn Sadie what the hell? lol I have to agree with you again lol


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes you know because I was getting ready to whip out definitions 

Working Dog 1. A working dog refers to a canine working animal, i.e. a type of dog that is not merely a pet but learns and performs tasks to assist and/or entertain its human companions, or a breed of such origin.


Pet : 1. An animal kept for amusement or companionship.


Love you David!


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## davidfitness83 (Jul 7, 2009)

I agree with Freddy on one thing though, I think a true working animal is the one that is constantly working for the benefit of its family. Whether it would be a constant guarding dog or a hunting dog bringing down predators for food or for control in farm scenarios. 

Bernie weight pulls, he flirt poles and works out but in my opinion he is far from a real working animal. I guess if we got robbed and he detterent the intruders I would could label him a working animal lol


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

> Why attempt to change the breed as if one knows more than the men/women that created the the breed everyone wants? Want they want stems from [] bred and [] matched dogs... Sgnt Stubby toppled a buffalo on national forest land and that was after returning home from WWI. Teddy Roosevelt had a []bred dog "Bully!" that followed him everywhere... everywhere.. his cousin FDR had [] bred dogs IN the White House.. so whats wrong with [] bred and [] matched dogs? "The Lil Rascals" 1940s had two dogs brothers both [] contenders and winners and more .. foundation for many strains of bulldogs. If you want an APBT you want a [] bred dog because what you admire are [] proven traits, only proven in the [] .. Most APBTs today are bandogs or bulldogs though and thats that.. because the law changes doesnt change the dna law or code-ing of the dog. Take everything you know now and sit down read Colby's book, then read the Stratton library.. If you can get your hands on it, Velvet and Steel.. then come back and ask the question again..


Everyone wants to be politically correct .. the source of many breeds or added drive; including the APBT, are from game dogs... I'll leave it at that..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

davidfitness83 said:


> I agree with Freddy on one thing though, I think a true working animal is the one that is constantly working for the benefit of its family. Whether it would be a constant guarding dog or a hunting dog bringing down predators for food or for control in farm scenarios.
> 
> Bernie weight pulls, he flirt poles and works out but in my opinion he is far from a real working animal. I guess if we got robbed and he detterent the intruders I would could label him a working animal lol


LOL ... Well if you titled in him working sports like Shutz that is what he would be considered I don't know Bernie and how well he would do only you know that. But If Bernie got his SchH1, SchH2, ect I would consider him a working dog regardless of how he is bred.



Firehazard said:


> Everyone wants to be politically correct .. the source of many breeds or added drive; including the APBT, are from game dogs... I'll leave it at that..


:goodpost:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Now this is JMO but my dogs that only dog agility, Obed, or Rally I do not consider "Working" dog but my dogs who do Schutzhund or WP I consider that working dogs. Hog hunting I would consider working as well but I do not hog hunt. The level of ability, speed, strength, stamina, and amount of work they have to have to do that I feel qualifies them to be working but again that is JMO  I know how much work goes into them!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Lisa I agree 100%! An Agility and Obedience dog I consider show dog's not working dogs. But Shutz dog's are most certainly working dogs. BTW Lisa I am looking at this club can you give me any info about it? I want to start working Bogart ASAP!

Greater Atlanta Schutzhund Association (GASA) | Welcome


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Wow your thinking of doing sch? That's great you will learn a lot! That looks like a great club and the price is about 250 a year and that is cheap than our club. Our club is 240 a year with a 100 membership to SCH USA, that club is only 150 with a 100 membership to USA. The training director has been in the sport for a long time and titles many dogs to a SCH 3. My suggestion is to contact them and see if you can go and watch a training session and tell them what breed you have and if they are willing to work with you. I train at least once a week and sometimes twice a week and I hardly EVER miss training. If you are going to do the sport clear your schedule on training days and commit. You cannot go once or twice a month you need to go at least every week if possible. It is a large commitment and you have to practice during the week on your own. If you are ready to fully commit I think you should go for it! There are many challenges to working bulldogs and if you have questions just ask, we have had to work out a bunch of kinks with the gamebred dogs. Also get involved as early as you can because you can do a lot of stuff at home to mess up Bogart for sch so start training him now.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I called them today  They accept all working breeds. Told them I have APBT's they said that was fine as long as they were working breeds. They meet up on saturday and I am going to meet up with them next Saturday. Yes I am excited to get out and do something with Bogart. He has a lot of drive and he is Super Smart and level headed if you met him you would see what I mean also he is very confident not afraid of anything or anyone. Lisa I would love to title him in Shutz. The lady who run's the club is going to call me back tomorrow to confirm our appointment. But I am really excited to learn and get Bogart involved in working sports after all that is what he was bred for . I need you to PM me your phone number because I will def be calling you asking lot's of questions. Thank You lisa for your input I appreciate it


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Thanks for answering. I guess what confuses me is that the AST and APBT are the same dog, with different pairings to get the show quality, is my understanding. They were/are the same DNA, just characteristics resembling show qualities vs. work qualities separates the two so they are now considered different. As well as not being recognized by UKC and AKC, they had to "make" a new breed the AST. I was told thats what I have, but he has drive and DA just like an APBT. I have only been around about 25 or so APBT that I have come to know, learn their reactions and see how the react in different situations. Gargamel is my first AmStaff and I don't see a difference to my other dogs, who were APBT. I think each dog is unique and if they have the drive they have it. Making them fight to keep it, just seems redundant. Also, if people stopped re-introducing the fight, how do you know it would start to fade if no one has tried?



Sadie said:


> How do you think we are able to own game bred dog's nowadays? Because there are still dog's being fought and tested by dog men around the world. This is why the APBT still exists. A game dog is a TRUE APBT!!


But, its illegal in this entire country and most civilized countries in the world. I don't see why people take the risk, especially if you don;t know what would happen if you stopped fighting them.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Because gameness is a trait that is unique to our breed the APBT it is selected and bred for by dog men it can't be preserved if it's not being continuously tested for and bred into the dogs. For example the AKC staff some are DA but many of them are not. Why? Because it was no longer a desired trait to have in the show dog so it was selectively bred out of them. When a breed is established it is created for a specific function and purpose. This breed while it is very versatile was bred for dog sporting. If you breed the dog's in a different direction other than their main purpose and function you are changing their genetics for one and two their purpose so they can no longer function as the same breed. The reason why this breed still remains today is by preservation. Dog men around the world are continuing to preserve these dog's true to form and function. So we as working dog owner's who do not choose to fight our dog's are still able to acquire proven tested stock from around the world and breed them for legal sports here in the US without breaking any laws.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

ames said:


> But, its illegal in this entire country and most civilized countries in the world. I don't see why people take the risk, especially if you don;t know what would happen if you stopped fighting them.


Although it's illegal Ames it is done here in Boston right under our noses. It's the reality.....you can pretend it don't exist today but it does. I met a few people along the way in my life that do it or have been to underground matches. I wouldn't consider the ones doing it "dog men" but they had the real deal APBT. I think it is disgusting and immoral what they do to those dogs and I have voiced my opinion but they don't care. Men love blood sports and it is a rush for the owners as well as the dogs. In my grooming career in Boston I had a few clients who were Boston police officers and detectives. I had numerous conversations with them about underground dog fights in the city and they told me how dangerous it is to go in and bust these guys who do it. There is alot of gang activity and where there is gangs there are guns, drugs, and high dollar gambling going on at these locations. I have some friends in NYC that know of people who do it there as well. And you don't have to go outside of the U.S. to breed a game dog because I know there are some right here in the states and always will be. Illegal yes, but I don't buy people having to go out the country to breed and keep the bloodline of true game dogs. You all ain't fooling me :roll:


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

UGH sorry this might be rude but do not call an AST the same as an APBT, it is insulting!!

Tara I'm happy you are interested in working him I can't wait!!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

performanceknls said:


> *UGH sorry this might be rude but do not call an AST the same as an APBT, it is insulting!!*
> 
> Tara I'm happy you are interested in working him I can't wait!!


:goodpost: Yes it is and if you go on any Amstaff forum and try to compare our dog's to their AKC staff's they would probably ban you after they served you a good kick in the butt. It's true though it's insulting to both parties to ever compare the 2 breeds because they are NOT the same breed anymore. They don't look the same and they sure don't function the same.

Lisa Thank You very much!your support means a lot to me


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Although it's illegal Ames it is done here in Boston right under our noses. It's the reality.....you can pretend it don't exist today but it does. I met a few people along the way in my life that do it or have been to underground matches. I wouldn't consider the ones doing it "dog men" but they had the real deal APBT. I think it is disgusting and immoral what they do to those dogs and I have voiced my opinion but they don't care. Men love blood sports and it is a rush for the owners as well as the dogs. In my grooming career in Boston I had a few clients who were Boston police officers and detectives. I had numerous conversations with them about underground dog fights in the city and they told me how dangerous it is to go in and bust these guys who do it. There is alot of gang activity and where there is gangs there are guns, drugs, and high dollar gambling going on at these locations. I have some friends in NYC that know of people who do it there as well. *And you don't have to go outside of the U.S. to breed a game dog because I know there are some right here in the states and always will be. Illegal yes, but I don't buy people having to go out the country to breed and keep the bloodline of true game dogs. You all ain't fooling me *:roll:


Yes of course there is game tested stock in the US. It's harder to acquire though because of the law's in this country. So people with game tested stock only deal with a circle of people mostly other dog men. Where as over sea's in countries like Mexico it's very easy to obtain tested stock as it's completely legal to match dog's there so they can openly sell to whomever they choose. Smart dog men in this country don't register there dog's at all they keep everything written down for obvious reasons.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Although it's illegal Ames it is done here in Boston right under our noses. It's the reality.....you can pretend it don't exist today but it does. I met a few people along the way in my life that do it or have been to underground matches. I wouldn't consider the ones doing it "dog men" but they had the real deal APBT. I think it is disgusting and immoral what they do to those dogs and I have voiced my opinion but they don't care. Men love blood sports and it is a rush for the owners as well as the dogs. In my grooming career in Boston I had a few clients who were Boston police officers and detectives. I had numerous conversations with them about underground dog fights in the city and they told me how dangerous it is to go in and bust these guys who do it. There is alot of gang activity and where there is gangs there are guns, drugs, and high dollar gambling going on at these locations. I have some friends in NYC that know of people who do it there as well. And you don't have to go outside of the U.S. to breed a game dog because I know there are some right here in the states and always will be. Illegal yes, but I don't buy people having to go out the country to breed and keep the bloodline of true game dogs. You all ain't fooling me :roll:


I don't think Sadie is talking about gang organized dog fighting when she refers to dog men. Its more about the way it was done originally for the sport of it, which is still illegal and horrible for the dogs, hence now its all underground fighting since its pretty much not legal in any civilized country, thank goodness. How can anyone tell a "true" dog man still fighting pups from the gang baning ghetto back ally ones, its all illegal so these days so they are all the same.

PK - Genetically they have the same markers, i though when I did my research? Just different temperament bred out of them to create the AST?

Sorry not trying to hijack a thread, lol, just curious.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Genetically they are bred from the same cloth originally .. But as time passed they were genetically bred away from their original purpose through selective breeding old traits were bred out of the AKC staff and new traits were introduced. If you go to the AKC website you can clearly see the differences. Also the AST bloodlines are no way associated with APBT bloodlines. Two different breeds with two different purposes. Our dog's are a working breed the AKC staff is not they are a show breed.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

ames said:


> I don't think Sadie is talking about gang organized dog fighting when she refers to dog men. Its more about the way it was done originally for the sport of it, which is still illegal and horrible for the dogs, hence now its all underground fighting since its pretty much not legal in any civilized country, thank goodness. How can anyone tell a "true" dog man still fighting pups from the gang baning ghetto back ally ones, its all illegal so these days so they are all the same.
> 
> PK - Genetically they have the same markers, i though when I did my research? Just different temperament bred out of them to create the AST?
> 
> Sorry not trying to hijack a thread, lol, just curious.


I didn't say she was talking or refering to gang bangers because we all know those aren't the "dog men". I was just talking about my conversations with the Boston PD...that's all


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

LOL Thug and Street Dog fighter's are just that I can't even imagine the crap that goes on in their world. The guys who actually match dog's for thousands and thousands of dollars and travel around the world with their dogs don't take the sport lightly. They take excellent care of their dog's and obviously it's a very expensive sport to compete in when your dealing with real dog men.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> I didn't say she was talking or refering to gang bangers because we all know those aren't the "dog men". I was just talking about my conversations with the Boston PD...that's all


oh my bad, lol.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

They originally were APBT's but soon became another breed all together through years of selective breeding. Now they are not even close to the same breed. Different drive levels, temperament, and purpose, a completely different breed. I like AST's and plan on owning one someday to do AKC with but they are a completely different breed. You cannot compare apples to oranges since they have changed so much over the years. It is insulting to both breeds to call them the same.

This is why if you change the reason for breeding dogs you change the breed entirely.

So let's entertain your thinking for a minute. If they are the same breed because they started out the same years ago. Compare them to the APBT standard, does an AST fit the standard structure wise? No they do not. Ok lets see, if you put a AST in a [] with an APBT would they both be able to do what the APBT was bred to do? No they would not. The breeds are a world apart and cannot be compared anymore. Now some will argue they still are the same but can they still preform the original purpose that the APBT was bred for?


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## LOVE MY DOGS (May 3, 2011)

I doubt that when the cross between the terrier and the bulldog happened that they magically came out DA and "game"....through selective breeding HUMANS created this dog...I read that they had to TRAIN the gameness into them - they weren't born that way. And I do not feel that it is humane to create a dog to go after each other-what is the purpose?...it just goes against the natural instinct of a dog world. If people have to test them underground and and this is the only supposed way to keep the dog pure, it is just plain wrong and I do not feel it should be practiced and I am shocked that anyone would think that this is ok. IF you think that this is ok then I would love to see you put your dog in a pit and let him or her get mauled or do the mauling. I believe the pit was invented for MAN'S entertainment not the welfare of the dog. Most breeds of dog were created for a purpose that helped man out whether it was companionship, herding, hunting, etc. it was all to help man. Oh..I get it, the pit's job is to make the human good money. The dogs do NOT have a choice in the matter...if only animals could talk...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

LOVE MY DOGS said:


> ...if only animals could talk...


I agree and I can't resist.... lol








performanceknls said:


> They originally were APBT's but soon became another breed all together through years of selective breeding. Now they are not even close to the same breed. Different drive levels, temperament, and purpose, a completely different breed. I like AST's and plan on owning one someday to do AKC with but they are a completely different breed. You cannot compare apples to oranges since they have changed so much over the years. It is insulting to both breeds to call them the same.
> 
> This is why if you change the reason for breeding dogs you change the breed entirely.
> 
> So let's entertain your thinking for a minute. If they are the same breed because they started out the same years ago. Compare them to the APBT standard, does an AST fit the standard structure wise? No they do not. Ok lets see, if you put a AST in a [] with an APBT would they both be able to do what the APBT was bred to do? No they would not. The breeds are a world apart and cannot be compared anymore. Now some will argue they still are the same but can they still preform the original purpose that the APBT was bred for?


But some AmStaff do have the same drive temperament of an APBT and some APBT have the same drive (or lack thereof) and temperament of AmStaff's. Thats why I am confused. To me, it just seems like a creative way to get them in as show dogs when the APBT was not allowed, and then they eventually were considered different just because they were separated and bloodlines not intermingeled anymore. If you have 2 people who have kids, and they have kids for generations, they are still from the same 2 people even if one moves to England and the other stays in the US. They will eventually change due to surroundings, not really lineage since its the same stock to begin with. (and I apologize if I am offending you with my questions, just seems very subjective)


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## LOVE MY DOGS (May 3, 2011)

That was great ames!!!


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

LOVE MY DOGS said:


> I doubt that when the cross between the terrier and the bulldog happened that they magically came out DA and "game"....through selective breeding HUMANS created this dog...I read that they had to TRAIN the gameness into them - they weren't born that way. And I do not feel that it is humane to create a dog to go after each other-what is the purpose?...it just goes against the natural instinct of a dog world. If people have to test them underground and and this is the only supposed way to keep the dog pure, it is just plain wrong and I do not feel it should be practiced and I am shocked that anyone would think that this is ok. IF you think that this is ok then I would love to see you put your dog in a pit and let him or her get mauled or do the mauling. I believe the pit was invented for MAN'S entertainment not the welfare of the dog. Most breeds of dog were created for a purpose that helped man out whether it was companionship, herding, hunting, etc. it was all to help man. Oh..I get it, the pit's job is to make the human good money. The dogs do NOT have a choice in the matter...if only animals could talk...


They didn't just select any terrier and any bulldog off the street to breed together to create the APBT. This breed had a purpose from day one and that was in the []. Its sort of like Bandogges, picking a selective well bred game, energetic and working APBT to a working Mastiff. They didn't just pick some random bulldog and a fat, lazy Mastiff. Pair that with selective breeding and you have a pretty much instant breed (Bandogge) with a purpose and drive to work as well as please.
By your post im not sure why you even admire this breed given the history and their purpose. I respect that you disapprove dog fighting however a AmBully or Bull Terrier would probably have been a more suited breed for you. Of course i have no idea what you own but you are on an APBT forum so i can only guess you're at least an admirer.

Ames, any APBT back in the day had game. Period. It's a recent (or more thereof) practice having non-game APBT's which often, are Bullies to begin with not the APBT. A well bred dog for this breed will have gameness and the desire to fight.

If this breed was simply "trained to fight" by now with dog fighting being illegal virtually all APBT's would not be DA or have game. There are still quite a few out there that if proven, would succeed. That by itself disproves the training theory. You cant train genetics.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

If you believe that a staff and an Apbt have the same level of drive and working ability you are wrong. You put an akc staff in the box against a real bulldog and that staff wouldn't last a minute against a bulldog. The staff is not built for blood sports. You guys must have never seen a real dog match which is why you don't understand these dogs and what they were bred to do. Like i said its not something everyone should understand either you get it or you don't. But if you believe the staff and the apbt are the same breed genetically i encourage you to talk to Akc breeders and mention these things to them and see the responses you get.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Sadie said:


> If you believe that a staff and an Apbt have the same level of drive and working ability you are wrong. You put an akc staff in the box against a real bulldog and that staff wouldn't last a minute against a bulldog. The staff is not built for blood sports. You guys must have never seen a real dog match which is why you don't understand these dogs and what they were bred to do. Like i said its not something everyone should understand either you get it or you don't. But if you believe the staff and the apbt are the same breed genetically i encourage you to talk to Akc breeders and mention these things to them and see the responses you get.


Anyone you know on the list an AKC, I would love to discuss it with them, for sure!

and I meant there are always exceptions, not that every AST or APBT has cross over traits. Just that since they come from the same stock , genetically, the same traits are in both dogs.

Sadly I have seen old pit fights from back in the day when they were "legit". not sure if you mean dog men or what not, but I watched to see if I could see the sport of it and to learn. ANNND no, I still didn;t think so, lol. Its like getting enjoyment out of a car crash. You watch, but not for entertainment. I watched so I could learn and know where my dogs history came from. But, you may not agree with that since you don't think its my dogs history since he is am AST, lol. But hey, without papers, I can never be too sure what he is, just going off what I was told he was and what others have said he resembled and acted like. who knows, who cares I still love him just the same ya know.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree I will never understand wanting to own a breed your ashamed of. You hate the dogmen who created these dogs to be what they are today and you disapprove of their history my question to all those who feel this way why not just follow in the footsteps of the AKC staff breeders? They wanted nothing to do with dogfighting or be associated with the Apbt so they bred select stock away from anything a fighting dog would possess which is how the staff came to be. An American Bully or Staff would be more suitable for those who have no respect for the history of the Apbt.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I have also watched old dog matches to learn and if you took note those dogs fought because they wanted to. Not because they were forced into it. Its bred into them so they fight because they want to and a game dog does not know the meaning of stop. They have to be stopped by their handler or they will fight to their last breath


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I am not trying to give you a hard time Ames I actually appreciate the fact you are open minded even if we can't see eye to eye on this one. I just love my dogs so much that I wouldn't want them any other way than what they were bred to be with that I accept how these dogs came to be and how their legacy continues.


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## LOVE MY DOGS (May 3, 2011)

KM dogs - I absolutely LOVE my pitbull and my bullies that I have. I respect their history, doesn't mean I have to approve of it. 

And yes I know that it wasn't just any bulldog and any terrier that went into the mix. I have done my research. I read all about the training, etc. that goes into it as well. 

I still hold fast to my statements that it is a cruel history and sport that only blood-thirsty people could ever watch. How could anyone get a thrill out of seeing their dog maul another? Seriously how? please explain that...

I honestly don't want to sound like some crazy person but I just can't fathom how anyone could say that fighting pitbulls is ok and perfectly humane just because the pitbull supposedly enjoys it. To put it in other terms, just because I love icecream does that mean I should be eating it as my staple? NO - it is just not right and not healthy. I was born eating icecream...it doesn't mean that it is good for me. Just because a dog may "love" to do something, doesn't make it right. My dog likes eating socks..doesn't make it good for him. 

Sorry if that was a totally stupid way to put everything...I understand where you stand on this topic and I am not going to try to change your mind


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

gaming dogs,for those who have no experience,you have only theory and opinion,that and A buck 25,you get coffee.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Sadie said:


> I am not trying to give you a hard time Ames I actually appreciate the fact you are open minded even if we can't see eye to eye on this one. I just love my dogs so much that I wouldn't want them any other way than what they were bred to be with that I accept how these dogs came to be and how their legacy continues.


Thanks Sadie. I agree we will not see eye to eye.  Just because I feel differently about their history doesn't mean I don't respect it as HISTORY, not what current day SHOULD be. What makes me sad, and offended, is some comments you have made I have taken to mean that you don't seem to respect that I can still love this breed and still hate the old school thinking and dog men. Why are does it have to be one or the other? Why can't you accept some love the breed and hate the dog men? To me the breed is way MORE than just for fighting, which is just one trait they have. I can love all the others without loving true old school dog men. people/dogs are created in ways that people do not respect or like in current day situations, but that does not change how they are loved or treated today. So why do feel the two HAVE to go hand in hand?



LOVE MY DOGS said:


> To put it in other terms, just because I love icecream does that mean I should be eating it as my staple? NO - it is just not right and not healthy. I was born eating icecream...it doesn't mean that it is good for me. Just because a dog may "love" to do something, doesn't make it right. My dog likes eating socks..doesn't make it good for him.


Thats exactly what I am talking about. Shoot I would love to go punch out every Yankee's fan I come across, but its not acceptable and just because I would LOVE to do that does not make it right (and belive me THAT is a trait I was born with thanks to my family, lol (Go Red Sox) Just because your dog looks like he is having a ball does not make it the right thing to do.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

ames said:


> Shoot I would love to go punch out every Yankee


now,as A native floridian, heres where I can agree.
hehehe,life sucks with s.fl. as the 6th burrough.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

william williamson said:


> now,as A native floridian, heres where I can agree.
> hehehe,life sucks with s.fl. as the 6th burrough.


ugh oh, you talking Yankee as in baseball or yankee as in people who live up north, lol

My folks live in Estero, FL its totally a mini red sox nation  gotta love it.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

william williamson said:


> gaming dogs,for those who have no experience,you have only theory and opinion,that and A buck 25,you get coffee.


:goodpost: lol

Ames you are really going to sit there and tell me these dogs are the same breed? I could repeat myself again and tell you the difference but it seems like it is falling on deaf ears. we have to agree to disagree.

*The Official ADBA Standard *










*The Official AKC Standard*


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I am really not trying to tell anyone anything just trying to discuss what I have read and what my life experiences have shown me. I know I do not know blue ribbon standards or what not and I am not trying to pretend I do. I see your pictures and I understand what the visual differences and temperament traits. please understand that and I am disappointed I can not get my thoughts across to make more sense as to what I am trying to say. I also know in the heart of it, by todays standards, they are diffent breeds. If my family came over on a boat with kids and some grew up in the north and someone else grows up in the south and their future generations would look/act different because their locations almost guarantee it. Its still the same great great great grandparents. they are different, but still the same makeup. In all seriousness I don't want you to think I refuse to believe facts. They are not the same agreed  I am trying to understand. I need to speak to a science major who understands. Thanks for your answers and I totally see the difference but what my head reads how they were selective breeding isn't what my eyes see. And I don't breed dogs so I am not going to pretend I get it lol.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Well we can't fix your head or thought process  sometimes you have to accept things even if you do not understand them.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

I just wanted to say that I have learned ALOT from this thread and that even though some agree to disagree it has been a very good clean debate and argument if you will.  I'm always glad I found this place!


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

ames said:


> ugh oh, you talking Yankee as in baseball or yankee as in people who live up north, lol
> 
> My folks live in Estero, FL its totally a mini red sox nation  gotta love it.


them 'uns what come down here and spoilt my turf.

PK,you know how I roll,******* style.
they call me A ******* hoodrat.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

oh yeah,I didn't want to get into this again either. the dogs are the proof.
until the dog proves different, words are moot.
one of the points where I still wish gaming wasn't legal.
then we'd just slap together A box,and listen to "dog talk".
"as we are the student, they are the teacher"


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

william williamson said:


> now,as A native floridian, heres where I can agree.
> hehehe,life sucks with s.fl. as the 6th burrough.


:rofl::rofl: Sorry,not trying to hijack thread.But I live right off 95 and I swear I'm gonna get me a bumper sticker for my car telling them yankees to go home.They can't drive worth crap!!!!I still need to get me that southern pulled pork shirt that Doug put on here.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

william williamson said:


> oh yeah,I didn't want to get into this again either. the dogs are the proof.
> until the dog proves different, words are moot.
> one of the points where I still wish gaming wasn't legal.
> then we'd just slap together A box,and listen to "dog talk".
> "as we are the student, they are the teacher"


:goodpost:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

william williamson said:


> oh yeah,I didn't want to get into this again either. the dogs are the proof.
> until the dog proves different, words are moot.
> one of the points where I still wish gaming wasn't legal.
> then we'd just slap together A box,and listen to "dog talk".
> "as we are the student, they are the teacher"


:goodpost:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

ames said:


> Thanks Sadie. I agree we will not see eye to eye.  Just because I feel differently about their history doesn't mean I don't respect it as HISTORY, not what current day SHOULD be. What makes me sad, and offended, is some comments you have made I have taken to mean that you don't seem to *respect* that I can still love this breed and still hate the old school thinking and dog men.
> 
> 
> > Old school dog men such as Colby, Heinzel, Greenwood, Boudreaux, etc.. educating people who created the breed you admire?.. Hmmm.. sure that makes sense .. I hate the sled dog men who created huskies but I love huskies.. That just doesnt hold water other than thats what you want to believe.
> ...


:woof::woof::woof::woof:


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

"Do not machine wash or tumble dry" means I will never wash this evvvva. Just sayin....


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Yes, at one time the Am Staff was the same breed as the APBT. Then in 1936 the standard was written for the Staffordshire Terrier using Colby's Primo (who was a triple registered dog, ADBA, UKC, and ADBA). From 1936 on the Staffordshire Terrier as bred for the show ring and in 1972 "American" was added to their name to cut confusion with the English dogs. Now by this time the AST had been bred along different lines and for different purposes than the APBT so I definitley consider them a different breed. Doesn't matter what breed: APBT, SBT, AST, and even Am Bully. They all originated from the same dogs in Europe, but have been bred for different purposes for many, many years thus they are all their own breed. Really there is no right or wrong answer it is a matter of perspective, but unless you know the history behind each breed, especially the APBT and AST, then I don't think one can truly understand. I love and respect each breed for what they are and I have the utmost respect for the dogs and dogmen of yesteryear. As far as preservation goes, well, if the trait isn't preserved then pretty soon they will just be Am Staffs. Right Sadie? lol  Oh, and no, I do not fight dogs blah blah blah but I understand why those in other countries do what they do.... yada yada yada.........


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Wow... I just read this whole thread.. I started it last night, went to bed, read some more this morning, took care of some business and finally finished it. haha

I can see the valid points of both sides. Blood sports are not for everyone, especially for the faint of heart. I do not agree that you have to like dog fighting to own this breed. But I do think there needs to be some level of respect for the old dog men and the old fighting dogs. As well as the people in other countries keeping the breed true as it is today.

As it was once explained to me, I will repeat it now. If you breed out DA, gameness or other attributes that were bred into this breed, you never know what characteristics that may go out the window with these qualities. For example in my own words. A very DA dog does not like other dogs or see them as his pack, but the same quality of DA makes him see his humans as his pack and be extremely clung to this idea. Pit Bulls prefer the company of people to other dogs. So if you breed out the DA.. you might lose one of the very traits most of us love about this breed, their dedication to humans.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Firehazard, I understand I would not have my dog without the old game men, that does not mean I have to like them or the fact they were once used for legal dog fighting before people realized how horrible and inhumane it is. The world changes and evolves. Respect and like are 2 different things, they do not always go hand and hand. I hate my boss but I still respect his position and authority.



dixieland said:


> :rofl::rofl: Sorry,not trying to hijack thread.But I live right off 95 and I swear I'm gonna get me a bumper sticker for my car telling them yankees to go home.They can't drive worth crap!!!!I still need to get me that southern pulled pork shirt that Doug put on here.


HAHA I live off 95 as well in Boston and always cringe when I get behind a mid west or southern state license plate. When I visit my folks I hate driving when I go down there cause people drive so horrible and refuse to learn how to merge  At least the lack of love is reciprocated lol


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

No worries, I was merely pointing out the points of debate that don't hold water. Times may change for some but that doesnt change the wild mustang does it? or Eagle that flies .. So because we have the faint of heart we should cull game ? and lie to ourselves and tell ourvselves we have a APBT especially when it bites someone :hammer: ...  .... :flush: ... you remind me of my aunt; are you a democrat?... JK around :roll: kinda... but I love my auntie.. up:

a sidenote of why game dogs are important to me.. 


> I live in the country and the game dog is the best dog for me in the wild .. its a programmable .45.. the best dang nanny dog ever and although they don't seem as intelligent as my karelian bear laika and my other primitive species of dogs I've owned and worked with such as Alaskan Huskies/Sled-dogs and f1/f2etc.. wolf dogs .. which keep a wide perimeter around you most of my bulldogs stay with in a distance that they feel they can still get to me or me get to them if there is danger.. The wolf dogs check in but you have to just know they are there and watching thats what they do, where as my bulldog stays with me and encounters anything with in 100 yds field of view with a vengence.. The other dogs are bark pointers .. so to speak. the harass and bite like a healer but much harder when the animal tries to flee.. Laika just chased a moose off yester day I thought she'd never come back but she kickd that bull mooses arse all the off our 10 on to the next bluff she was even kicked and then she came back on her own good time.. my bulldog Turk.. LOL just bite that moose on in ( Y ) and hang on for a bit let him know dont come back then he will return unlike Laika, he will let go on command Laikas live for that stuff .. to harass big game.. bulldogs live to please and dominate big game .. coyotes are nothing to a good bulldog like I said Turk hunts coyotes on his own at night, I had to put him on a zip line... LOL wolves are coming up and coyotes are long gone he can get a lobo in his arse but a pack of 3 wolves will kill dog and eat em like a sweet snack, but on a bear again the laika harasses, the bulldog grabs.. thus the term bullbiter/bearbiter.. dominating big game is where they came up with the title game orginally in england and early colonial into western days they figured out how to purify and prove the dogs MENTALITY.. in the []. The mentality that you love will be lost without the []...... Most people again who think they want an APBT would be much better off with a bull terrier or english staffie .. they are all the bulldog most people need; American bulldogs are great choices as well for a big dog lover .. but game is the most important trait of the American Pit Bull Terrier without it, your just breeding Amstaffs...


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> you remind me of my aunt; are you a democrat?... JK around :roll: kinda... but I love my auntie.. up:
> 
> a sidenote of why game dogs are important to me..


I am registered as an independent, a true Democrat really is :roll: lol

thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

ames said:


> HAHA I live off 95 as well in Boston and always cringe when I get behind a mid west or southern state license plate. When I visit my folks I hate driving when I go down there cause people drive so horrible and refuse to learn how to merge  At least the lack of love is reciprocated lol


Ahhhh, red necks down south where the confederate flag still flies LOL!! JK guys don't kill me LOL! Ames all this yankee talk because you mentioned disliking the New York Yankees which is in the baseball team "Yankees" :hammer: I totally agree with you on the driving Ames!

Quick funny story....Two of my neighbors who are very close and hang together both bought pups weeks apart from eachother. One of the neighbors is orginally from Alabama and named there new dog Bubba and the other family named there dog Lincoln. The day they got there pups together Bubba wore a confederate flag bandana and Lincoln had on the American flag bandana. It was funny! Goes to show we can all be a little crazy LOL!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Ahhhh, red necks down south where the confederate flag still flies LOL!! JK guys don't kill me LOL! Ames all this yankee talk because you mentioned disliking the New York Yankees which is in the baseball team "Yankees" :hammer: I totally agree with you on the driving Ames!
> 
> Quick funny story....Two of my neighbors who are very close and hang together both bought pups weeks apart from eachother. One of the neighbors is orginally from Alabama and named there new dog Bubba and the other family named there dog Lincoln. The day they got there pups together Bubba wore a confederate flag bandana and Lincoln had on the American flag bandana. It was funny! Goes to show we can all be a little crazy LOL!


HAHAHA Thats what I am saying, I am no not a Yankee, lol. Thats why I had to ask him if thats what he meant, I didn't get how one leads to the other. Its so outdated like people who forget they lost the war and still want to fly that flag. Bubba. Thats says it all right here lol


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## LOVE MY DOGS (May 3, 2011)

Ames and Shanon that was AWESOME! :goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## junkyard (Oct 14, 2010)

Its funny i was going to write one of my pig headed replies that i do when i get all riled up over this same issue, but then i erased it.

lol , so i will only be partialy pigheaded.

But i will say this, One thing that people who are totaly against the preservation of gamebred apbt all have in common is this; they have never owned nor even seen one to experience what they are even like. And i dont care if you think you have, truth is you havent which is why you have the opinions you have. Every single Gamebred dog owner will agree with me and that says alot.

And on the topic of papers; papers are for breeders , show crowds and some enthusiasts. That is pretty simple too. Never seen the point in owning anything more than a single gen when the rest is in my head. To even tell you what my dogs ped is i would have to write it down as they aint on fedsonline anyways.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

I only read the OP, Gamedogs will live forever, it will always be alive, it will never cease. If you like it or not, and there is nothing that anyone can do about it. As most circles are tightly closed.

Period.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I refuse to have this conversation ever again I have tried till I am blue in the face.. People who have never owned a real bulldog don't get it. So I am not even going to bother anymore. I am just glad that the general population doesn't own dog's bred like mine and some other's on here. Or else we would really be in serious trouble.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Sadie said:


> I refuse to have this conversation ever again I have tried till I am blue in the face.. People who have never owned a real bulldog don't get it. So I am not even going to bother anymore. I am just glad that the general population doesn't own dog's bred like mine and some other's on here. Or else we would really be in serious trouble.


You should seriously save your responses..... This has been another automated response from Sadie......


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> You should seriously save your responses..... This has been another automated response from Sadie......


:rofl::rofl::rofl: Can you put these in your electronic book for me?? LMAO!!


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Sadie said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: Can you put these in your electronic book for me?? LMAO!!


lmmfao Word you got it.... It shall go in the







section


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

pitbullmamanatl said:


> You should seriously save your responses..... This has been another automated response from Sadie......


:rofl::rofl:
LMAO good one!!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

pitbullmamanatl said:


>


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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