# Supplements for mass



## Homesteader (Sep 10, 2013)

Hey y'all!
So I saw that thread about supplements, and while I have heard of it, I have never considered it. Until now.
Tank is 13mos. and has the frame to put on, ans carry the mass without doing any sort of joint damage, so we're good there.
But what's up with supplements? Do any of them work? Are there long term effects? 
I've been doing rescue/ rehabilitate /rehome for a decade+ now, so all this is news to me! Lol! 
Good genes, good food, good exercise that's what I have always done, but you guy's went all fancy with it! Lol!
Or someones making a buck off of nothing...?


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## Pink (Jun 29, 2011)

Don't consider it. It's a waste of money. When trying to achieve anything like extra "mass", you have to rely mostly on genetics. All you need to worry about is providing a quality kibble and regular exercise, and you're all set. Sounds like you've been doing it the right way all along. No need to resort to "fancy" methods now.


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## Homesteader (Sep 10, 2013)

:cheers: Thank ya!


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Pink said:


> Don't consider it. It's a waste of money. When trying to achieve anything like extra "mass", you have to rely mostly on genetics. All you need to worry about is providing a quality kibble and regular exercise, and you're all set. Sounds like you've been doing it the right way all along. No need to resort to "fancy" methods now.


 You are so very , very wrong.


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## Pink (Jun 29, 2011)

OldDog said:


> You are so very , very wrong.


Oh? Genetics don't determine how "thick" the dog will be, and a quality diet and exercise don't help ensure your dog will reach its potential? Muscle-building supplements are, indeed, required?


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

joint supplements you can use Bee Pollen, wonderful for the joints. Not sure of other man made supplements


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Pink said:


> Oh? Genetics don't determine how "thick" the dog will be, and a quality diet and exercise don't help ensure your dog will reach its potential? Muscle-building supplements are, indeed, required?


 Did I say a word as regards genetics? ANd take some advice , you * really* don't want to start trying to tell *me* about conditioning and how to shape a dog.

Furthermore , please tell me how you'd utilise whey protein , recovery products such as CytoMax , medium chain triglycerides , creatine monohydrate in conjunction/symbiosis with Glutamine.


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## Pink (Jun 29, 2011)

OldDog said:


> Did I say a word as regards genetics? ANd take some advice , you * really* don't want to start trying to tell *me* about conditioning and how to shape a dog.
> 
> Furthermore , please tell me how you'd utilise whey protein , recovery products such as CytoMax , medium chain triglycerides , creatine monohydrate in conjunction/symbiosis with Glutamine.


You're getting worked up over nothing.

I never tried to tell you a thing on how to condition a dog. This thread isn't even about conditioning. The OP didn't say a thing about conditioning their dog. We're not talking about muscle-_recovery_ supplements used when working a dog. This thread is about muscle-_building_ supplements used to add mass to a dog, and whether _those_ are worth the money. Muscle-building supplements the OP is referring to, like BullyMax, for example, is absolutely a waste of money, in my opinion. Yes, quality kibble, regular exercise, and let genetics do the rest. Works for mine.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Pink said:


> You're getting worked up over nothing.
> 
> I never tried to tell you a thing on how to condition a dog. This thread isn't even about conditioning. The OP didn't say a thing about conditioning their dog. We're not talking about muscle-_recovery_ supplements used when working a dog. This thread is about muscle-_building_ supplements used to add mass to a dog, and whether _those_ are worth the money. Muscle-building supplements the OP is referring to, like BullyMax, for example, is absolutely a waste of money, in my opinion. Yes, quality kibble, regular exercise, and let genetics do the rest. Works for mine.


 Best ashcan that approach , since of course I'm not ' worked up'.

And I know exactly what's under discussion. That being your original blanket statement that all supplements are junk , you're already backpedaling on that one. Now it's " just Bullymax" and the like that are junk.

And the FACT is that the RIGHT sort of " muscle building supplements" coupled with the RIGHT program of work CAN " build mass". Don't even bother attempting to argue this with me. I * actually* know what I'm talking about , YOU............well not so much , as evidenced by your original blanket statement and your words above , along with of course direct discussion of any of the commonly used supplements within the context of these dogs that I named.

And NOW you wanna come back and play your little " don't get upset" logical fallacy games? So let me get this straight , I call you on being full of crap on the subject and because I don't " agree" with you I'm "upset"? Hows does that work exactly? I suppose that everyone on the planet who disagrees with you on something is " up set".ROTFLMAO at that one.

And get something very BASIC straight here in your mind , that being that D I E T and conditioning go hand in hand.

You want to add REAL mass to a dog instead of just FAT then you're going to have to work the dog.


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## Pink (Jun 29, 2011)

OldDog said:


> Best ashcan that approach , since of course I'm not ' worked up'.
> 
> And I know exactly what's under discussion. That being your original blanket statement that all supplements are junk , you're already backpedaling on that one. Now it's " just Bullymax" and the like that are junk.
> 
> ...


Re-read my original post again. _NEVER_ did I say _ALL_ supplements were junk. Once again, this discussion is about muscle-_building_ supplements such as BullyMax. Once again, muscle-_building_ supplements are what I was referring to when I said "Not worth the money." This thread isn't about _ALL_ supplements, the OP asked about muscle-_building_ supplements, so I gave my opinion on muscle-_building_ supplements. And I'm backpedaling?

Did I say muscle-building supplements didn't work? I have no experience with them, so I wouldn't know, but if you say so. Again, though.. and this is just my ever so humble opinion.. a dog just simply doesn't _need_ them. Again, in my opinion/experience, all a dog needs is a quality diet, regular exercise, and good genetics. Again, re-read my "blanket statement". Right, there isn't one, since this thread wasn't about all supplements when I originally posted.

Games. I'm playing logical fallacy games. Good lord.

Tell that to the OP. You act as if you think I have no knowledge on how to keep a dog looking good.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Pink said:


> Re-read my original post again. _NEVER_ did I say _ALL_ supplements were junk. Once again, this discussion is about muscle-_building_ supplements such as BullyMax. Once again, muscle-_building_ supplements are what I was referring to when I said "Not worth the money." This thread isn't about _ALL_ supplements, the OP asked about muscle-_building_ supplements, so I gave my opinion on muscle-_building_ supplements. And I'm backpedaling?
> 
> Did I say muscle-building supplements didn't work? I have no experience with them, so I wouldn't know, but if you say so. Again, though.. and this is just my ever so humble opinion.. a dog just simply doesn't _need_ them. Again, in my opinion/experience, all a dog needs is a quality diet, regular exercise, and good genetics. Again, re-read my "blanket statement". Right, there isn't one, since this thread wasn't about all supplements when I originally posted.
> 
> ...


 No you aren't , you just played another round in the above. And NOPE I don't think you have any hard knowledge of " how to keep a dog looking good" , in point of actual fact you've nothing more than a rudimentary lnowledge of canine dietary considerations , much less the efficacy of various types of supplements.

And even less than that as regards * actual* conditioning a dog and putting one into *actual* shape.

Spurious generalisations based upon very little in the way of hard data are not only falsehoods perpetrated , they're also deleterious in the general sense.

And don't bother with further deflection into " oh BUt I really MEANT XYZ supplement." , you made a blanket statement , said statement was bullshit , simple as that really.


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## r1balla (Aug 14, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Did I say a word as regards genetics? ANd take some advice , you * really* don't want to start trying to tell *me* about conditioning and how to shape a dog.
> 
> Furthermore , please tell me how you'd utilise whey protein , recovery products such as CytoMax , medium chain triglycerides , creatine monohydrate in conjunction/symbiosis with Glutamine.


not to turn this thread into a different direction (and i know u know your stuff) but cytomax is a terrible product and glutamine has been proven ineffective with studies. creatine is all about muscle saturation which is roughly 2.5-5g / day.

but i agree with your last point in the statement i quoted....ordinary exercise wont do anything for the dog. one walk a day is just not enough. I am learning on this area as well but at least i know that much!


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## r1balla (Aug 14, 2013)

Pink said:


> Re-read my original post again. _NEVER_ did I say _ALL_ supplements were junk. Once again, this discussion is about muscle-_building_ supplements such as BullyMax. Once again, muscle-_building_ supplements are what I was referring to when I said "Not worth the money." This thread isn't about _ALL_ supplements, the OP asked about muscle-_building_ supplements, so I gave my opinion on muscle-_building_ supplements. And I'm backpedaling?
> 
> Did I say muscle-building supplements didn't work? I have no experience with them, so I wouldn't know, but if you say so. Again, though.. and this is just my ever so humble opinion.. a* dog just simply doesn't need them. *Again, in my opinion/experience, all a dog needs is a quality diet, regular exercise, and good genetics. Again, re-read my "blanket statement". Right, there isn't one, since this thread wasn't about all supplements when I originally posted.
> 
> ...


good post (in bold). at least for humans, if you have your diet down and know your macros to gain/lose and your training is on par with your goals, thats all you truly need.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

r1balla said:


> not to turn this thread into a different direction (and i know u know your stuff) but cytomax is a terrible product and glutamine has been proven ineffective with studies. creatine is all about muscle saturation which is roughly 2.5-5g / day.
> 
> but i agree with your last point in the statement i quoted....ordinary exercise wont do anything for the dog. one walk a day is just not enough. I am learning on this area as well but at least i know that much!


 Oh really? Seems like a good many folks disagree as to the effectiveness of CytoMax , including within the marathon and ultra-marathon communities , the competitive bicycle community , fighters , wrestlers , powerlifters.

And for every study you wish to cite HERE that states such about Glutamine I can provide one stating the opposite. Furthermore when used in conjunction with creatine monohydrate it is more than the sum of it's separate parts.

And I wouldn't really attempt to bandy the subject of creatine with me and it's uses , not unless you fully understand what it does within the body and the function of ATP.

By the way , a dosage of 2.5 grams a day can lead to renal problems with long term use.


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## r1balla (Aug 14, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Oh really? Seems like a good many folks disagree as to the effectiveness of CytoMax , including within the marathon and ultra-marathon communities , the competitive bicycle community , fighters , wrestlers , powerlifters.
> 
> And for every study you wish to cite HERE that states such about Glutamine I can provide one stating the opposite. Furthermore when used in conjunction with creatine monohydrate it is more than the sum of it's separate parts.
> 
> ...


really? so you have studies on 2.5g/day causing renal issues? please post. and just because famous people use a supplement doesnt mean its a good product. sorry, i was thinking of cytogainer not cytomax. Have not even looked at cytomax yet.

and i do understand the renal system fairly well. I am in my last semester of nursing school and work online on forums as a supplement rep and have been working with supplements and the use of them for over 7 years. I am no expert, but i know my way around the body. and would you please post your studies on the effectiveness of glutamine please? especially one with the use of creatine as well.


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## Homesteader (Sep 10, 2013)

What I was specifically looking for is for weight pulls. Let me see if I can put down what I'm thinking.
Tank is a big boy with pretty good breeding. I would say excellent, but grain allergies were allowed to remain in the line in pursuit of the "blue".
Anyways -while there will be no breeding for Tank, and his balls are on reprieve until I am sure he is done growing- I want to do weight pulling with him, and maybe therapy work if I find myself with some extra time. 
So recovery, some mass for the kiddies at the hospital to oooo over, and I hear some folks are currently feeding supplements the morning of the pulls.
Getting into pulls will be new training experience for me -since it includes conditioning. Something else I am unfamiliar with, and came here to see what folks are saying.
Right now his coat tells me he needs to be taking on some fish oils. I started him on an antibiotic to save off a secondary infection, moved him off grains, and have been giving him one of my eggs a day to add in the omegas. 
Tank is a new dog, and coming along nicely, but when we head up to the children's hospital -I want to wow the kids when their big buddy shows up! LOL!
P.s. Tank is an American Bully in blue 
So hints would be welcome, but remember -I have to add grains one at a time to make sure it doesn't trigger his allergies. So basics please


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

r1balla said:


> really? so you have studies on 2.5g/day causing renal issues? please post. and just because famous people use a supplement doesnt mean its a good product. sorry, i was thinking of cytogainer not cytomax. Have not even looked at cytomax yet.
> 
> and i do understand the renal system fairly well. I am in my last semester of nursing school and work online on forums as a supplement rep and have been working with supplements and the use of them for over 7 years. I am no expert, but i know my way around the body. and would you please post your studies on the effectiveness of glutamine please? especially one with the use of creatine as well.


 Not *my* studies. Get that straight , peer reviewed medical and athletic performance studies , and YES extended long term usage of creatine at the levels you describe can create and/or exacerbate renal problems.

7 years 'eh? GOLLY that's a long time , since I was once a competition athlete and trainer......I've been working with supplements and using them for one hell of a lot longer than 7 years.

You say that you're an "online rep for a supplement company" , yet apparently you're not up on the usage of creatine and other supplements within the competition powerlifting world and other branches of athletic endeavor.

Interesting that you " blah blah famous people" and then freely admit that you didn't even know what the hell your were talking about in the first place.

How can you POSSIBLY confuse a weightgainer such as CytoGain ( by the way MOST weightgainers are pure crap) with a carb supplement and lactic acid buffer such as Cytomax if you're a " supplement rep" is completely and totally beyond *me*.

And I note with quite some amusement that you avoided discussion of how creatine works and WHY , again DO you understand how the body uses ATP and why?

Do you have any inkling as to how Glutamine made it's way into the athletic community and WHY highly conditioned athletes operating beyond the bodies own production capacity of glutamine can and do benefit from additional supplementation. Do you fully understand glutamine's role in protein synthesis?

You slag it off as useless , but clearly aren't cognisant of it's usage within the medical community?

Start *here* for a cursory overview of medical applications and a hint as to why it's effective for endurance athletes and athletes involved in sports that require extreme conditioning.

Glutamine | University of Maryland Medical Center

Glutamine isn't a "magic pill/powder" , as a stand alone it produces very expensive urine , in conjunction with creatine AND for those with high protein intake it's quite beneficial.

Explore the efficacy in regulation of the acid/base balance within the renal system , along with production of ammonium.

Cellular level energy source second only to glucose.

Donation of nitrogen to various anabolic processes , including purine production.

Source of carbon donation , including of course replenishment of the citric acid cycle.

Protein synthesis , along with of course the other 20 proteinogenic amino acids.

Ammonia transport within the circulatory system in a *non toxic* manner and an aid to excretion of excess ammonia byproducts of extensive protein supplementation.

And quite frankly if the body is in a catabloic state due to injury , illness or *overwork* , glutamine supplementation is not only beneficial but almost necessary for a timely recovery. ( reduction of healing times).


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## Homesteader (Sep 10, 2013)

Looks like I am leaning on therapy work harder than I realized! Lol!
Come to think of it -I've been conditioning him for it all along...
:clap:


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## r1balla (Aug 14, 2013)

OldDog said:


> Not *my* studies. Get that straight , peer reviewed medical and athletic performance studies , and YES extended long term usage of creatine at the levels you describe can create and/or exacerbate renal problems.
> 
> 7 years 'eh? GOLLY that's a long time , since I was once a competition athlete and trainer......I've been working with supplements and using them for one hell of a lot longer than 7 years.
> 
> ...


anyways, i really dont want to embarrass you on here so go again and PM me and we can have this discussion. btw, go ahead on anabolicminds.com and post a thread on creatine usage and glutatime and see what responses you get (from doctors and professional bodybuilders who backup there claims with more than ONE university study).


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

r1balla said:


> anyways, i really dont want to embarrass you on here so go again and PM me and we can have this discussion. btw, go ahead on anabolicminds.com and post a thread on creatine usage and glutatime and see what responses you get (from doctors and professional bodybuilders who backup there claims with more than ONE university study)


 And what make you think I'm not already On " anabolicminds"? And one university study? BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA , I was attempting to open a discussion so I posted a singular example , somehow YOU thought that I've done no other research. That's a pretty drastic error on your part.

See BLUNTLY , *your* knowledge begins and ends at such websites and the texts you have to read to pass your courses.

Do you have any NEW thoughts of YOUR OWN on this or are you limited to parroting other folks opinions?

By the way, you might want to avoid the issue of anabolics with *me* , I was sticking a needle in my *rear with Test Prop and Cyp , Sustanon 250 and the Nandrolones in the freaking '70s........I freaking *KNEW* Dan Duchaine , Pat ( you know you'll KNOW who they are) and others long before you were likely even *thought of.

I *never* open my mouth on a subject unless I have knowledge of it and am well informed about the specific subject.

Now either bring something to the table beyond footstomping petulance and demands that folks bow to you................Or just enjoy what's coming at you should you continue your current tactics.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Oh and " Balla" , that " get some real bloodwork" crap, real assumptive of ya there BOY. 

Damn , guess the microscope , panels and centrifuge setting here mean I know nothing about "real bloodwork" does it? 

See here's the most harmful ASSumption to yourself and your arguement that you've made so far................your assumption that *nobody* but YOU knows anything on this subject or carries any information of value. 

In the end you're a friggin P O S E R with rudimentary knowledge of the subject at hand attempting to yank the wool over folks eyes to obfuscate the fact that you actually know *nothing beyond the first year texts and hanging out in forums dangling on every little word from other folks who actually DO know and those who THINK they know the subject. 

The Wahhhhhmbulance is thataway>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Word McCoy is right I really would enjoy more of how suplements work within the dog then the back and fourth.

Olddog I have used Cytomax with my dogs didn work for me I would like to know how you apply its use I am no pro and could have been given to much..?


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Alright guys, I've cleaned up the snot and blood, and I expect y'all to keep it clean from here on out. Thank you for your cooperation.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

^^^ Word^^


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

mccoypitbulls said:


> its my job to help now also, so im helping the new dude, shut the trap, before things escilate to another realm.


 Yeah well , it would be nice to actually have a viable discussion , one without the sideshow artists , one that discards blanket statements etc.etc.

Examine some *realities* of supplements in the general sense.

A. There is *no* supplement , including anabolic steroids , the prohormones etc .etc. that's a " magic pill" , none , zip , nada..........ZILCH.

The effectiveness of a given supplement in an athletic endeavor of any sort is dependent a great deal on usage factors and **work put in**.

B. Data extrapolated from the human world and applied to canines best be from the *real* world where results are usable and can be extrapolated to canines.I.E...........actual athletic endeavor requires results manifested in strength and or endurance , OR the medical world.

NOT from puff and pose contests wherein the adherents often utilise MASSIVE over dosages on the given compound.

How many of y'all here gonna go to 300-400 grams of protein a day? A gram of Test every other day and 200 mgs of Deca a day?

Get your data from the *real* world.

C. Again I'll hit this , if you don't put in the work you don't get the desired results.

This means WORK the dog , if the individual spends four hours on the couch with the PS3 and a half hour walking the dog they've got it a** backwards.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> ^^^ Word^^


 Check your pms. Cytomax answer.


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

mccoypitbulls said:


> just keep that book n bring it to nats Rudy, i think im gonna start rollin in my wheel chair now, and if a lasso the right semi, i just may be there!!


 Nah just draft 'em.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

OldDog said:


> Check your pms. Cytomax answer.


Will do when I get to the house.

McCoy man glad your coming. I will have it for ya,


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

i'm not gonna read the whole thread on this one, old dog is using alot more famcier words than i know, but he's right on this one.

yes you can add mass, but before the show you want to reduce it but maintsain the strength.

but THE BEST for that is dynabol, then cut with winstrol, but i DO NOT reccomend 99% of the people on this forum even trying that stuff, 
you have to know how, when, and why.
otherwise you can ruin your dog.

but if used correctly.........................................

we did not use on any females tho, and back then what was, $175 in the gyms, we were gettin for $25, 

why would anyone want to put mass on any way???????????????


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Seriously keep it on track guy, I am the third person who has had to clean this thread up. Its getting old.


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## Homesteader (Sep 10, 2013)

I think I am way out of my league on this one. Lol! I think Surfer is right, and I am part of the 99%, it's really not that important to me to possibly mess up my buddy. At least not just for show, I can't justify the risk.
Thanks Guys!


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Okay, things have been handled as best as they could be. You guys were warned several times throughout the thread to keep on track, and couldn't comply, thus causing a mass clean up and now the thread is being closed.

To the OP, I apologize to you for any inconvenience this may have caused you, as I know you were looking for valuable input and it turned into something else.


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