# Is it possible to expect what my pup will come out looking like? Razors Edge pitbull?



## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi everyone, I recently got a pup from a breeder and people were asking me what his bloodline was, and I had mis-assumed that he was from the Gotti line as I could vaguely remember what the breeder told me when I was picking up my puppy. So I got tired of my friends asking and emailed the breeder what bloodline he is from. The sire is Razors Edge and the dam was an apbt (the pup is also registered by the adba an the breeder wanted 100 dollars for papers). I did a little research on Razors Edge line and there are so many breeder mixing in bulldogs and mastiffs into the bloodline its hard to gauge what the pup will end up growing too look like.

My question is, is it possible to estimate what the pup will look like from his puppy pics/bone structure and pics of his mom/dad as well as pics from other litters?

I am just curious to see how he will look when hes a big boy.

First pic is of his brother from a different litter

Second pic is his sister from the same litter as the pup in the first pic

Third and fourth pics are dad

Last pic is mom

This is a vid of me annoying him:


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Its not something that you can look at the parents that know what they will look like. Dogs may not even look like that parents at all. When you have a breeder who has been working on the consistency in a line then you have a better idea, but when 2 dogs are just bred without going for consistency you could get a variety of looks. ( Even consistently bred dogs can have throw backs )

This is my last litter that I had and they are RE/Nevada.
If you look at the litter compared to parents they are consistent among themselves, but they all share parts of both mother and father. So until they are 6-12 months old it is hard to see what structure they got from which parents. After that age it is easier to see whether he'll look like dad, mom, a bit of both, or something further back in the line.








Sire








Dam









As your puppy matures you will better be able to tell what he will look like full grown.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

American_Pit13 said:


> Its not something that you can look at the parents that know what they will look like. Dogs may not even look like that parents at all. When you have a breeder who has been working on the consistency in a line then you have a better idea, but when 2 dogs are just bred without going for consistency you could get a variety of looks. ( Even consistently bred dogs can have throw backs )
> 
> This is my last litter that I had and they are RE/Nevada.
> If you look at the litter compared to parents they are consistent among themselves, but they all share parts of both mother and father. So until they are 6-12 months old it is hard to see what structure they got from which parents. After that age it is easier to see whether he'll look like dad, mom, a bit of both, or something further back in the line.
> ...


Awe your pups look adorable, I love the red fawn pup especially.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

American_Pit13 said:


> Sire


Sire is bad ass.

To the OP, other breeders might be mixing zebras in their dogs, but if you knew the pup you were going to get you should know what to expect.

Look at the pedigree, look at the dogs that its been linebred to, those dogs will have a great influence in your dogs looks.

If it outcrossed, the dogs will come out neither like the sire nor like the damn, the pups will be considered mediocre since it will share gene portions of each dog within 6 gens.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> Sire is bad ass.
> 
> To the OP, other breeders might be mixing zebras in their dogs, but if you knew the pup you were going to get you should know what to expect.
> 
> ...


Well I actually want him to be a mix of everything. If he could look like the mom + be blue then I would be happy. I didn't want a dog that looks like EVERY other blue pit. Of course they are aesthetic and muscular, but I like the sleek apbt look, and the blue color. So which ever way he turns out is not a huge deal. I would get his papers, but like I said in the OP...the breeder wants 100 $ for papers (which is definitely not worth it). But I do know that the dad was Razors Edge for sure.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

strongmasseters said:


> I would get his papers, but like I said in the OP...*the breeder wants 100 $ for papers* (which is definitely not worth it). But I do know that the dad was Razors Edge for sure.


And that, my friend, is a sure sign of a back yard breeder! The guy you got your pup from is just trying to make money off the dogs. You should never have to pay for registration papers/pedigree information from the breeder, if you go with a reputable breeder. When you apply for the registration papers/pedigree from the registry, then you pay, but it still shouldn't be anywhere close to $100! I'm sorry you had to go through this, but it's a hard lesson learned. Enjoy him, love him, train him and be responsible and you should have nothing to worry about.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

Go get the freakin papers before you make a thread 3 months from now wining that your dog doesnt have papers.


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## APASA (Dec 27, 2010)

SMiGGs said:


> Go get the freakin papers before you make a thread 3 months from now wining that your dog doesnt have papers.


^^^^^:rofl:
Bwahaha no kidding. You'll wish you had em later.


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## SLVRBLLT (Jul 12, 2007)

just give me the dog i dont care if it has no papers


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> Go get the freakin papers before you make a thread 3 months from now wining that your dog doesnt have papers.


This thread has NOTHING to do with a purebred argument, which is what you are making it to be. I have 0 interest in that (even though I know the breeder and he only sells to certain people, aka not craigslist or randoms). I can't care any less that I don't have papers. I have 1 mutt and 1 cavalier king charles spaniel (with papers) and it makes 0 difference in having the papers.



APASA said:


> ^^^^^:rofl:
> Bwahaha no kidding. You'll wish you had em later.


I don't understand what is so funny.


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## SMiGGs (Jul 6, 2011)

strongmasseters said:


> This thread has NOTHING to do with a purebred argument, which is what you are making it to be. I have 0 interest in that (even though I know the breeder and he only sells to certain people, aka not craigslist or randoms). I can't care any less that I don't have papers. I have 1 mutt and 1 cavalier king charles spaniel (with papers) and it makes 0 difference in having the papers.
> 
> I don't understand what is so funny.


no arguments here, just said how your dog is gonna be which is, undetermined. The dog isnt line bred so its no purebred argument, If it was line bred certain phenotype features would arise through out many gens of offspring.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

SMiGGs said:


> no arguments here, just said how your dog is gonna be which is, undetermined. The dog isnt line bred so its no purebred argument, If it was line bred certain phenotype features would arise through out many gens of offspring.
> 
> If you bought a dog with out papers, why not adopt in the first place, there is plenty of dogs that are un-papered, pitbull type dogs too. Thats none of my business though.


Because I am still after a certain look. Alot of the adoption pits are mixes and grow up to be pretty small. I purposely picked this dog becaue 1. I know the breeder and 2. the dogs that have come from the previous litters are my preferred taste in pit athletic + muscle.

And it seemed like you were trying to argue, because why would I care 3 months from now (and 'make a thread') about not having papers. I couldn't care less.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

strongmasseters said:


> *Because I am still after a certain look. *Alot of the adoption pits are mixes and grow up to be pretty small. I purposely picked this dog becaue 1. I know the breeder and 2. the dogs that have come from the previous litters are my preferred taste in pit athletic + muscle.
> 
> And it seemed like you were trying to argue, because why would I care 3 months from now (and 'make a thread') about not having papers. I couldn't care less.


Forgive me for asking, but do you plan on breeding this dog at some point in time, or do you just plan to have him as a pet? Also, the "pits" that are available at shelters/rescues for adoptions aren't always mixes, just because they don't have papers. It's very rare for an owner to surrender their dog and be honest and surrender pedigree/registration papers with the dog. Also, the normal size for an APBT is what the general public considers to be "small". My girl is coming up on 9 mos old, weighs about 30 lbs and is 18 1/2" at the shoulders. Do you consider that small? My mutt boy is 21" at the shoulders and about 75 lbs. I've had purebred APBTs to be 65 lbs and 21-22" at the shoulder, and on down in size to 17-18" and 45 lbs. It really depends more on the bloodlines and selective breeding than it does on the purity or impurity of the dog.

Now, I'm not arguing on the fact of the dog being purebred either, but us seasoned vets on here have seen all too many times where someone posts about the "breeder" of their dog charging for the papers, and then come back several months later complaining about not having the papers b/c their curious about the bloodlines, or want to breed their dog, or show their dog or whatever. That's why I ask if you plan to breed your dog. I could really care less, as I don't have to feed your dog, nor do I have to endure whatever lies ahead in yours and your dog's future. I'm just saying, we see these same kinds of posts ALL THE TIME!

As I said in my previous post, just love your dog, train him, be responsible and you'll be happy and so will he.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

ThaLadyPit said:


> Forgive me for asking, but do you plan on breeding this dog at some point in time, or do you just plan to have him as a pet? Also, the "pits" that are available at shelters/rescues for adoptions aren't always mixes, just because they don't have papers. It's very rare for an owner to surrender their dog and be honest and surrender pedigree/registration papers with the dog. Also, the normal size for an APBT is what the general public considers to be "small". My girl is coming up on 9 mos old, weighs about 30 lbs and is 18 1/2" at the shoulders. Do you consider that small? My mutt boy is 21" at the shoulders and about 75 lbs. I've had purebred APBTs to be 65 lbs and 21-22" at the shoulder, and on down in size to 17-18" and 45 lbs. It really depends more on the bloodlines and selective breeding than it does on the purity or impurity of the dog.
> 
> Now, I'm not arguing on the fact of the dog being purebred either, but us seasoned vets on here have seen all too many times where someone posts about the "breeder" of their dog charging for the papers, and then come back several months later complaining about not having the papers b/c their curious about the bloodlines, or want to breed their dog, or show their dog or whatever. That's why I ask if you plan to breed your dog. I could really care less, as I don't have to feed your dog, nor do I have to endure whatever lies ahead in yours and your dog's future. I'm just saying, we see these same kinds of posts ALL THE TIME!
> 
> As I said in my previous post, just love your dog, train him, be responsible and you'll be happy and so will he.


No I never plan to breed him. I know that if I did, there is no way that all the puppies would make it to a safe home. My faith in mankind's generosity to pitbulls is pretty much non existent. I wanted about a 65-80 lb dog because I used to know a pit and he was that size...and he was the most cuddly/sweet dog ever. He was basically a 70 lb lap dog.

As for the pit rescues, I volunteer at the animal shleter, and there are 3 'pits' that are all mutts. Usually having long hair is a dead giveaway, or the way the tail and coats are (which is why they label them as plain terriers at the animal shelter). One day I will rescue a dog, just can't at the moment. Adopting is much different than owning as you have no clue how many breeds are mixed into the genetics, which could possibly require much more training time ti achieve a submissive dog than one that has been bred for companionship.

I know this because people bring back dogs ALL THE TIME.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

strongmasseters said:


> This thread has NOTHING to do with a purebred argument, which is what you are making it to be. I have 0 interest in that (*even though I know the breeder and he only sells to certain people, aka not craigslist or randoms*). I can't care any less that I don't have papers. I have 1 mutt and 1 cavalier king charles spaniel (with papers) and it makes 0 difference in having the papers.


If you know the breeder and know he is "legit", responsible and breeding true to the dogs (not a BYB) than there should be a significant consistency in what is being thrown, especially so given that RE is an American Bully bloodline and American Bullies are bred as companions AND *show ring*.. Given they are bred for show thus registry standards, there is a tighter consistency in physical appearance. (rather should be, anyway)

If anything, if the he knows genetics and knows what he is doing when producing litters, stacking ped, etc.. There should be consistency in his yard if anything thus the question is mute..

If we were talking about Bulldogs (APBT if you will) than they are bred for function and ability first and foremost, of course there is consistency within each line or yard there isn't a strong consistency in appearance over all as physical attributes are not the first priority in breeding working dogs.. If a hound cannot function then there is a huge disability in terms of what the breeds core is. Working dogs are exist for work, in other words..

Simple as it gets.

Also,


> *I wanted about a 65-80 lb dog because I used to know a pit and he was that size...and he was the most cuddly/sweet dog ever. He was basically a 70 lb lap dog.*


 Bulldogs are typically a bit smaller than 65lbs, whopper sized is more 65 - 80 pounds.. Unless proven the name APBT, Bulldogs are less than 70 - 75 pounds and Bandogs are more than.. Not to be confused with the Mastiff, this has been the case for over a century.

There are "new" views and thoughts on the subject of weight and the APBT as a whole, however this is the way its been.. Very, very few APBTs have been 80 pounds.. The largest "Bulldog" would be i believe Buster Brown, topped out i believe at 110 pounds give or take.. 









But this can be argued, regardless you don't hear about too many 70+ chain weight Bulldogs that are functional, when it happens word typically spreads.


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## APASA (Dec 27, 2010)

It was funny because you have a "known breeder" and are asking for opinions on what "we" think he will look like. Why not ask the breeder? If he has a specific line he is breeding, he should be able to tell you. If you want us to decipher his make up then pay the cash and get the papers (Not because we care whether or not he is purebred) but, so we know what dogs we are working with here. Also, didn't you say you wanted the blue color with that "sleek APBT look" well good luck getting your "70lb" lap dog to be "sleek"... Not trying to sound rude, but your not being very consistent about what you want from the dog.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> If you know the breeder and know he is "legit", responsible and breeding true to the dogs (not a BYB) than there should be a significant consistency in what is being thrown, especially so given that RE is an American Bully bloodline and American Bullies are bred as companions AND *show ring*.. Given they are bred for show thus registry standards, there is a tighter consistency in physical appearance. (rather should be, anyway)
> 
> If anything, if the he knows genetics and knows what he is doing when producing litters, stacking ped, etc.. There should be consistency in his yard if anything thus the question is mute..
> 
> ...


An untrained (sled pulling training I am talking about) pitbull is usually around 60 lbs, but I am gonna get him into sled pulling to keep him occupied. But increased calorie intake + sled pulling = bulked up dog. So if his base level of muscle mass is 60 lbs, it wouln't be hard to add a cuple lbs of muscle. I did the same thing with my Rottweiler. He was 90 lbs, after 2 years of sled pulling, hes a solid 110 lbs. Btw he is a farm dog, so there is a function to bulking him up.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

APASA said:


> It was funny because you have a "known breeder" and are asking for opinions on what "we" think he will look like. Why not ask the breeder? If he has a specific line he is breeding, he should be able to tell you. If you want us to decipher his make up then pay the cash and get the papers (Not because we care whether or not he is purebred) but, so we know what dogs we are working with here. Also, didn't you say you wanted the blue color with that "sleek APBT look" well good luck getting your "70lb" lap dog to be "sleek"... Not trying to sound rude, but your not being very consistent about what you want from the dog.


Obviously your dog hasn't ever been introduced into sled pulling cause you can be sleek and muscular. I never said I wanted him to look like a bully. The breeder told me he was gonna be 55-70 lbs, I wanted to get the opinions of people in the forum. You are now annoying me so I am just gonna ignore you from now on.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

strongmasseters said:


> No I never plan to breed him. I know that if I did, there is no way that all the puppies would make it to a safe home. My faith in mankind's generosity to pitbulls is pretty much non existent. I wanted about a 65-80 lb dog because I used to know a pit and he was that size...and he was the most cuddly/sweet dog ever. He was basically a 70 lb lap dog.
> 
> As for the pit rescues, I volunteer at the animal shleter, and there are 3 'pits' that are all mutts. Usually having long hair is a dead giveaway, or the way the tail and coats are (which is why they label them as plain terriers at the animal shelter). One day I will rescue a dog, just can't at the moment.* Adopting is much different than owning as you have no clue how many breeds are mixed into the genetics, which could possibly require much more training time ti achieve a submissive dog than one that has been bred for companionship.*
> 
> I know this because people bring back dogs ALL THE TIME.


I understand what you're saying about the dogs being obvious mutts. But what I don't understand is why would you want a submissive dog? I mean, my dogs are by no means submissive, but they respect the authority in my household, including my 2 yr old daughter. She can tell them "Kennel" and they go in their crate and wait for her to close the door. My boy in my signature is a definite mutt, but he's been easier to train than any other dog I've had, and I've spent no more time dong so than I would any of my other dogs. Usually people look for a dog with confidence; not overly cocky or submissive. Can you please enlighten me on why you would want a submissive dog? Please help me to understand.


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## MoTenn (Jul 1, 2011)

strongmasseters said:


> Obviously your dog hasn't ever been introduced into sled pulling cause you can be sleek and muscular. I never said I wanted him to look like a bully. The breeder told me he was gonna be 55-70 lbs, I wanted to get the opinions of people in the forum. You are now annoying me so I am just gonna ignore you from now on.


To me sounds like you got a regular American Pit. I'm a bully breeder an have a Razor Edge pocket female. As short as she is she's bout 75-80lbs. From my understanding APBT's are around 55-70lbs and Razor is a bully line. I honestly wouldnt sweat it, reguardless enjoy what ya got. The only thing I would be worried bout concerning the bloodline is If there is a lot of close relation inbreeding which can lead to health issues.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

To the OP. I'm very sorry you were duped into thinking they were good breeders. A responsible, good, breeder would never mix breeds and then try to sell them as pure bred dogs with papers. Since the American Bully and the American pit bull terrier are in fact two separate breeds you actually have a mix bred dog. Now I'm not trying to insult you or your dog at all so please don't take it that way. I myself have owned some wonderful mixes and that doesn't mean they're any less special  as for your original question it's going to be a crap shoot since they was no purpose or though behind the breeding other than putting two dogs together. When you have a scatter bred litter like that the pups can take on charictoristics from grandparents, great grandparents, or even dogs further back in the line. However if you do decide to get the papers you can better see what your dog has behind him. 
As for the other comments about big dogs being slim and fit, take a look back through a few of my pic threads  D is 100% APBT. His ped consists of some Aligator/Turtlebuster, jeep and a little red boy. He stands over 20in and is 72lbs solid


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

ThaLadyPit said:


> I understand what you're saying about the dogs being obvious mutts. But what I don't understand is why would you want a submissive dog? I mean, my dogs are by no means submissive, but they respect the authority in my household, including my 2 yr old daughter. She can tell them "Kennel" and they go in their crate and wait for her to close the door. My boy in my signature is a definite mutt, but he's been easier to train than any other dog I've had, and I've spent no more time dong so than I would any of my other dogs. Usually people look for a dog with confidence; not overly cocky or submissive. Can you please enlighten me on why you would want a submissive dog? Please help me to understand.


Because an alpha god can be a problem dog. I have 8 Rottweillers. I want a submissive dog. A submissive dog is one that you (the owner)
have full faith and trust in, and are even able to pick him up off the ground, or let him off leash and know he will behave.



MoTenn said:


> To me sounds like you got a regular American Pit. I'm a bully breeder an have a Razor Edge pocket female. As short as she is she's bout 75-80lbs. From my understanding APBT's are around 55-70lbs and Razor is a bully line. I honestly wouldnt sweat it, reguardless enjoy what ya got. The only thing I would be worried bout concerning the bloodline is If there is a lot of close relation inbreeding which can lead to health issues.


No I don't think he was inbred. The breeder is one of my dads neighbors and he cycles his 2 dams with 3 sires to achieve different types of looks.



kg420 said:


> To the OP. I'm very sorry you were duped into thinking they were good breeders. A responsible, good, breeder would never mix breeds and then try to sell them as pure bred dogs with papers. Since the American Bully and the American pit bull terrier are in fact two separate breeds you actually have a mix bred dog. Now I'm not trying to insult you or your dog at all so please don't take it that way. I myself have owned some wonderful mixes and that doesn't mean they're any less special  as for your original question it's going to be a crap shoot since they was no purpose or though behind the breeding other than putting two dogs together. When you have a scatter bred litter like that the pups can take on charictoristics from grandparents, great grandparents, or even dogs further back in the line. However if you do decide to get the papers you can better see what your dog has behind him.
> As for the other comments about big dogs being slim and fit, take a look back through a few of my pic threads  D is 100% APBT. His ped consists of some Aligator/Turtlebuster, jeep and a little red boy. He stands over 20in and is 72lbs solid


No I should just get his papers so everyone will stop talking about him being a mutt. Unless Razor's Edge pitbulls are mutts (I heard that they were mixed with Staffordshire terriers to build more size) then he is purebred. I know the breeder, you are presumptuously posting in this thread without reading all the other posts. I talk to the breeder on a daily basis. I also got ALL of my 8 Rottweilers from him. As well as my King Charles Spaniel from his sister. All of them with papers

So when this guy tells me I have a purebred, I am going to listen to him.



















So yea, when you call my dog a mutt when he is not, then make a bunch of presumptuous comments...then say not to get mad...of course I am going to get mad.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

RE is not a "Pit Bull" aka American "Pit Bull" Terrier bloodline, RE is American Bully.. Refer back to my other post.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> RE is not a "Pit Bull" aka American "Pit Bull" Terrier bloodline, RE is American Bully.. Refer back to my other post.


Ok please tell me what RE is mixed with then? If it is staffordshire terrier, then I consider that pitbull, as does the ADBA.

Even though he is half 'bully', staffordshire terriers were bred from the same ancestry if I am correct, although the APBT line was taken in a different route for fighting.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

strongmasseters said:


> Ok please tell me what RE is mixed with then? If it is staffordshire terrier, then I consider that pitbull, as does the ADBA.
> 
> Even though he is half 'bully', staffordshire terriers were bred from the same ancestry if I am correct, although the APBT line was taken in a different route for fighting.


Bulldogs and APBTs existed before AST, AST went show and reduced performance as APBT and Bulldogs stayed the course.. RE be "debated" on what it once was however RE has been for years a lack of function, ability and mentality of that counter of Bulldog and APBT... RE IS American Bully plain and simple. Different breed than an APBT and i could give a rats ass what a registry will register.. It is a BUSINESS, give them money you get papers..

American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, American Bully, American Pit Bull Terrier, Bulldog, American Bulldog.. Genetically same, selectively bred for different functions thus different breeds ENTIRELY.. The only "Pit Bull" is the American Pit Bull Terrier.

The APBT is a game Bulldog bred for matching.. All Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven (matching) as an American *Pit* Bull Terrier..

Even if you chose to believe this breeder rather than listen to those that have been involved in these hounds for years, you said "even though he is half Bully".. If you believe he is "Half Bully" and "Half Pit Bull" than by that you have a mutt.. Two different breeds, two different functions..


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> Bulldogs and APBTs existed before AST, AST went show and reduced performance as APBT and Bulldogs stayed the course.. RE be "debated" on what it once was however RE has been for years a lack of function, ability and mentality of that counter of Bulldog and APBT... RE IS American Bully plain and simple. Different breed than an APBT and i could give a rats ass what a registry will register.. It is a BUSINESS, give them money you get papers..
> 
> American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, American Bully, American Pit Bull Terrier, Bulldog, American Bulldog.. Genetically same, selectively bred for different functions thus different breeds ENTIRELY.. The only "Pit Bull" is the American Pit Bull Terrier.
> 
> ...


Bully = pitbull. I'm not the only one who would say that either. And an English bulldog is apart of the pitbull, not a pitbull. A staffordshire terrier and pitbull are actually of the same mixes. Mixing a staffordshire terrier and a pitbull is different then mixing a bulldog or American bulldog with a pitbull. I also never fucking mentioned in my op that this was a breed discussion.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

MoTenn said:


> To me sounds like you got a regular American Pit. I'm a bully breeder an have a Razor Edge pocket female. As short as she is she's bout 75-80lbs.* From my understanding APBT's are around 55-70lbs *and Razor is a bully line. I honestly wouldnt sweat it, reguardless enjoy what ya got. The only thing I would be worried bout concerning the bloodline is If there is a lot of close relation inbreeding which can lead to health issues.


No, more like the 35-60lbs range and preferable toward the smaller end.

There have been beast out there 65+, but just like the occasional APBT thats dog friendly, it can happen, but should not be expected.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

strongmasseters said:


> Bully = pitbull. I'm not the only one who would say that either. And an English bulldog is apart of the pitbull, not a pitbull. A staffordshire terrier and pitbull are actually of the same mixes. Mixing a staffordshire terrier and a pitbull is different then mixing a bulldog or American bulldog with a pitbull. I also never fucking mentioned in my op that this was a breed discussion.


I never said English Bulldog i said Bulldog, you got a LOT to learn but its okay i guess you can go learn all you need to know from your BYB.. LOL

Thanks for the good laughs.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

KMdogs said:


> I never said English Bulldog i said Bulldog, you got a LOT to learn but its okay i guess you can go learn all you need to know from your BYB.. LOL
> 
> Thanks for the good laughs.


Right and you are the face of go pitbull? Is this what the creator of the site wanted, for rude ignorant posters like you to come into other people threads starting arguments which have nothing to do with the original post. Thank you do much for the 'knowledge' yoda.


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## Kenaii (Dec 22, 2011)

strongmasseters said:


> Bully = pitbull. I'm not the only one who would say that either. And an English bulldog is apart of the pitbull, not a pitbull. A staffordshire terrier and pitbull are actually of the same mixes. Mixing a staffordshire terrier and a pitbull is different then mixing a bulldog or American bulldog with a pitbull. I also never fucking mentioned in my op that this was a breed discussion.


Bully does not = Pit bull. The only true Pit bull is the American PIT BULL Terrier. The American Bully is a DIFFERENT breed.

The EB is not "Part of the Pit Bull" actually. Back in the day, there were two kinds of Bulldog, there was the Brachysephalic (Spelling?) Bulldog that was similar to today's English Bulldog and then there was the Working Bulldog that was very similar to today's APBT. The Brachysephalic Bulldogs were used as pets, since they couldn't work, The Working bulldogs were used as Bull Baiting dogs, but also had other jobs.

I Personally think that Richard Stratton's theory on the Origin of the APBT is much more accurate than the common "History" you see in Dog books. I think that the APBT is a Direct descendent of the Working bulldog, as any crosses to the Bulldog would ruin his gameness, therefore it is unlikely that the old Bulldog x Terrier theory is true.


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

dont ask a question if you dont want an honest answer. You've done nothing but contradict yourself this entire thread to get the answer YOU want. Guess what were not here to feed your ignorance were here to correct. Take it our leave it. I dont care if your breeder is Jesus Christ himself from the info you gave us he sounds nothing more than a puppy peddler breeding what ever breed he can get his hands on as ignorantly as possible. The attitude you bring does nothing but ruin our beloved endangered breed. GET A CLUE DUDE


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## 904bullys (Jan 8, 2012)

Kenaii said:


> Bully does not = Pit bull. The only true Pit bull is the American PIT BULL Terrier. The American Bully is a DIFFERENT breed.
> 
> The EB is not "Part of the Pit Bull" actually. Back in the day, there were two kinds of Bulldog, there was the Brachysephalic (Spelling?) Bulldog that was similar to today's English Bulldog and then there was the Working Bulldog that was very similar to today's APBT. The Brachysephalic Bulldogs were used as pets, since they couldn't work, The Working bulldogs were used as Bull Baiting dogs, but also had other jobs.
> 
> I Personally think that Richard Stratton's theory on the Origin of the APBT is much more accurate than the common "History" you see in Dog books. I think that the APBT is a Direct descendent of the Working bulldog, as any crosses to the Bulldog would ruin his gameness, therefore it is unlikely that the old Bulldog x Terrier theory is true.


correct_o_mondo.:cheers:great post


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

904bullys said:


> dont ask a question if you dont want an honest answer. You've done nothing but contradict yourself this entire thread to get the answer YOU want. Guess what were not here to feed your ignorance were here to correct. Take it our leave it. I dont care if your breeder is Jesus Christ himself from the info you gave us he sounds nothing more than a puppy peddler breeding what ever breed he can get his hands on as ignorantly as possible. The attitude you bring does nothing but ruin our beloved endangered breed. GET A CLUE DUDE


1. Where did I contradict myself

2. I never asked for purebreeding arguments

Can u just have mod delete my account?


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## circlemkennels (Aug 29, 2010)

strongmasseters said:


> 1. Where did I contradict myself
> 
> 2. I never asked for purebreeding arguments
> 
> Can u just have mod delete my account?


There's a button that says logout you can click and it'll remove gp from your screen


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

circlemkennels said:


> There's a button that says logout you can click and it'll remove gp from your screen


Ok then i'll log out. What is gp? I want my account fully removed.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

I'm sorry if you feel that way and yes I did infact read this intire thread. The fact is the father to your pup is an AmBully, RE is an American Bully bloodline and it's creator, Dave Wilson, has admitted to mixing more into them than just APBT and AM Staff. You stated the mother to your pup is an APBT. AmBully + APBT = MIXED BRED DOG. They are two separate breeds put together, that is the very definition of mix breeding. 
These people don't breed for any other reason than to make money. That is not what responsible breeders do, and the fact that they want to charge you 100 bucks for papers that you should get upon buying the pup proves that. That is complete horse shit and they should be ashamed of themselves for trying to screw people over like that.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

I like which ever mod moved this to the breed discussion forum. Lol.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Your thread wasn't moved, it's in the same place it's been since you started your post.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

taking this back to the original question, It is very hard for us to tell what the dog will turn out by looking at a couple pictures of the parents. i find alot of dogs will take after more of there grandparents then parents so you need to know the history { reason for having a pedigree}. You get mad at people when refer to your dog as a mutt but here atleast where I am it is illegal to sell a pup as a pur bred unless it comes with a pedigree, without that you have no idea what is in there and from what you explained is in your dog it would be a mix breed if there is APBT and am bully. 
Noone is saying anything bad about the dog, some great working dogs and pets and weight pullers are mixed , it does not make your dog less valuable.. If you want a guess as to the size of your dog at full grown your best guess would be at 4 months to double the weight he is then. That will give you the closest estimate as to what the mature weight will be. as for body style you would have to be able to see the grandparents, parents and then ontop of that the condition you choose to keep him will play a role as well. 

Looking at parents and there weights is just a guess, I know our largest boy is a good 15 lbs heavier then his mom and his mom is bigger then his dad . His brother is also a good 20lbs heavier then he is, so looking to parents wont always tell you what to expect.

I think KM and many others have offered you a great deal of info on here , and FACTS that you turned around and got defensive over. Sometimes things get read in a way or tone they weren't meant to be read in , and perhaps you took offense to things that didn't mean to be. Maybe stepping back and re reading some of the info and letting that info soak in will do you some help. Like the part where bully = pit bull. The corrections made to that statement were bang on in my opinion. 

I hope you stick around and learn , and read and participate in the forum. There is alot to learn no matter how many years you have in this breed. If you feel the need you have to leave, there is no way to delete accounts. The only option when leaving this forum or any forum for the most part is to just leave, the account will become dormant and these threads you made will eventually run there course and fall to the bottom of the pile. Everyone on here has started out in your place and learned along the way, Sometimes things can come across harsh but everyone here has the dogs at heart and the want to try and educate. I will however say if you aren't prepared for ANY and ALL responses dont ask lol.


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## strongmasseters (Feb 9, 2012)

angelbaby said:


> taking this back to the original question, It is very hard for us to tell what the dog will turn out by looking at a couple pictures of the parents. i find alot of dogs will take after more of there grandparents then parents so you need to know the history { reason for having a pedigree}. You get mad at people when refer to your dog as a mutt but here atleast where I am it is illegal to sell a pup as a pur bred unless it comes with a pedigree, without that you have no idea what is in there and from what you explained is in your dog it would be a mix breed if there is APBT and am bully.
> Noone is saying anything bad about the dog, some great working dogs and pets and weight pullers are mixed , it does not make your dog less valuable.. If you want a guess as to the size of your dog at full grown your best guess would be at 4 months to double the weight he is then. That will give you the closest estimate as to what the mature weight will be. as for body style you would have to be able to see the grandparents, parents and then ontop of that the condition you choose to keep him will play a role as well.
> 
> Looking at parents and there weights is just a guess, I know our largest boy is a good 15 lbs heavier then his mom and his mom is bigger then his dad . His brother is also a good 20lbs heavier then he is, so looking to parents wont always tell you what to expect.
> ...


Thank you, you have helped me a great deal. I mean that sincerely.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

strongmasseters said:


> Because an alpha god can be a problem dog. I have 8 Rottweillers. I want a submissive dog. A submissive dog is one that you (the owner)
> have full faith and trust in, and are even able to pick him up off the ground, or let him off leash and know he will behave.


I take issue with what you said, only because I feel that you can have a dog that's not submissive and still have faith that the dog will obey and behave. If trained properly and enough effort/time/patience is instilled in the dog, even the most dominant of personalities in a dog can exhibit the same behaviors as you described above. Been there, done that! You like a submissive dog, that's your desire and you're content with that, but not me. I want my dog to have confidence in his/her surroundings, be alert, be himself/herself, and still obey me and mind his/her manners. I have no issues with my dogs and one is more dominant in his traits and personality (my mutt dog). I allow some resistance, but my dogs know when I speak, I mean business. They recognize that I'm alpha. Even the most submissive dog at some point will find it's gumption and try for alpha position.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

See that's what I was trying to say too. Just because they dog is mixed doesn't make it any less of a dog. My best dog was a mix too. 
Like Angel said, in many places you can't sell a dog as a pure bred without the papers in hand to prove it, and they should not charge you at all for them. Papers should come with the pup, just like the title to a car, make sense? 
You can however, talk with someone who works with your local law enforcement, and see what they say about the situation. If its the same in your area they may order them to give you your papers being you paid for a pure bred dog.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

ThaLadyPit said:


> I take issue with what you said, only because I feel that you can have a dog that's not submissive and still have faith that the dog will obey and behave. If trained properly and enough effort/time/patience is instilled in the dog, even the most dominant of personalities in a dog can exhibit the same behaviors as you described above. Been there, done that! You like a submissive dog, that's your desire and you're content with that, but not me. I want my dog to have confidence in his/her surroundings, be alert, be himself/herself, and still obey me and mind his/her manners. I have no issues with my dogs and one is more dominant in his traits and personality (my mutt dog). I allow some resistance, but my dogs know when I speak, I mean business. They recognize that I'm alpha. Even the most submissive dog at some point will find it's gumption and try for alpha position.


:goodpost:
Word girl!! Dosia is totally always the dominant dog. There is only a few dogs he is ok with. Other than that he is pretty DA, but I've worked my ( Y ) off with his obedience and focus and I am very confident in him when we go out to the sport events. He has to be off lead of course when we are dock diving and he has to stay focused and not pay attention to the other 50 barking dogs. 
He listenes very well though. I never have to leave to dock. He will keep his focus and bring is decoy right back up the steps to the dock  such a good boy. There's a few who need second handlers. They stand at the ramp and leash the dog before he comes out of the water to avoid him running off or charging another dog.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Too bad my message went unheard by the person it was directed towards, but at least someone understands what I was trying to say. Thanks Krystal, and I'm glad Dosia is better behaved than those other dogs out there! Keep up the great work.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks Bev. Yea there are a few people who think its ok to be rude and invade others space. When your in the waiting area your suppose to keep your dog at least 5ft or so from the other dogs and always on lead unless on the dock. A few don't follow these rules though  one guy got asked to control his dog or leave cause ke kept charging and barking at the other dogs and the guy seemed to not care. He damn near knocked over two older ladies trying to get to one of their dogs it was terrible. People like that often scare older people and give them a bad image, the very thing we strive to educate against. Luckily Dosia was on his very best behavior and made a wonderful impression on quite a few new people  he got excited a few times but he will stay in a down stay and mind his manners in the waiting area


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