# Titles, clubs and such



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Started this to not thread jack the other post.

*Posted by Gesithexe*



> Originally Posted by OldFortKennels
> ADBA is IMO the most recognized for the APBT world.
> 
> http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=100
> ...


Andy

You could not be more wrong 
APA = I pull can get you a title 12x WP1, 18x WP2, 23x WP3
IWPA = 4 pulls 12x body weight = WD1 / 4 pulls 18x body weight = WD2 / 3 pulls 23x body weight = WD3 
UKC Qualifying title
- 3 pulls pulling 8x the body weight

Points after qualify 
- Wheels 
* 10x body weight = 5 points 
* 15x body weight = 10 points
* 25x body weight = 15 points 
* 35x body weight = 20 points 
- Rails 
* 20x body weight = 5 points
* 25x body weight = 10 points
* 35x body weight = 15 points
* 45x body weight = 20 points 
- Snow 
* 5x body weight = 5 points
* 7x body weight = 10 points
* 10x body weight = 15 points
* 15x body weight = 20 points 
- Most weight pulled 
* received an extra 5 points 
- Most weight pulled per body weight
* received an extra 5 points

United Weight Pull Champion (UWPCH) = 100 points
United Weight Pull Champion Excellent (UWPCHX) = additional 250 points
United Weight Pull Champion Versatile (UWPCHV) = additional 100 points also 
have pulled on two different types of vehicles (ex wheels & rails) 
United Weight Pull Champion Outstanding (UWPCHO) = additional 100 points
United Weight Pull Champion Supreme (UWPCHS) = additional 100 points also 
have pulled on all three different types of vehicles (wheels, rails & sled)

Pulling is about seeing what your dog can do not glorify the ones that have been pulling for years. I myself do not agree with ADBA not to mention they are jacked due to them opening there registry but not allowing the breeds to do jack at them. I have been asked by them to join there registry WHY is what I have stated due to not allowing my Presas or Staffies to pull. Are the clubs actually that affraid that other breeds will come still there titles>??

I love the way UKC has there titles it means you have to work your dog and prove your dog can gain these titles, Not to mention they have there ALL STARS which they have a Section for APBTs, American Bulldogs and other breeds. they take the first 25 with the most points and they get to do a pull off at Premier.

Deb
__________________
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesnt merely try to train him to be semi human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog."


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

*Posted by OFK*



> Points after qualify
> - Wheels
> * 10x body weight = 5 points
> * 15x body weight = 10 points
> ...


My point exactly. You could have a dog on a wheeled track only ever pull 
10x his body weight
20 times and its a CH, Same for a dog on rails....etc. Every dog can get a title so why would a CH be special??? 


> I love the way UKC has there titles it means you have to work your dog and prove your dog can gain these titles


 IMO pulling 10x your body weight 20 times doenst constitute a title or worthy of a title. I think points should only be awarded to 1-3, ribbons to the rest. YOu could have the worst pulling dog in the country but go to enough shows and they give it a CH title.

So its really a meaningless title. For example I know a guy whos dog pulled at several shows with us and it never took a first or second, however he went to the UKC and his dog is in the top 25, the All Stars???
What title means more, one that any dog can get given the go to enough shows or a CH title where you must get 100 points by placing in the top 3 where the point system is 8 points for first, 5 for second and 3 for 3rd. Takes a really good dog and some time to get it this way!



> Pulling is about seeing what your dog can do not glorify the ones that have been pulling for years


True but why give them a title if they are not the best at it? Champion should mean BEST.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

*posted by OFK*

When it comes to showing I think the NKC is the toughest. You have to get 100 points, 1-3 and have to have at least 2 majors after a year of age or 1 best in show.!!

For example Switch has the points already but still needs a major to be a show CH.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

*Posted by Geisthexe*



> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by OldFortKennels
> > My point exactly. You could have a dog on a wheeled track only ever pull
> > 10x his body weight
> ...


In all things titles take time and so does a dog getting better at something 
so you can go against UKC pulls all you want. I will still like them b/c I CAN PULL ALL MY DOGS FROM MY STAFFIES TO MY PIT TO MY PRESAS but what the ABDA pulls are nothing more then a little glory for pits that have been pulling for years and do not allow the newbies to get any glory. Oh and hmm I did read in ABDA WP Rules, they do not use any other vehicles but rails. Why is that??? At least in UKC you have to prove your dog can pull other things besides just one. 
Now wouldnt that prove a better weight puller? 
And if you would have actually read my post you would have seen that they have MANY titles to prove the dog. Again pulling a dog with UKC and what that dog can do.

And to burst your bubble but AKC is the HARDEST place to get titles in.

So why not answer me why ABDA Clubs will not allow other breeds??? 
Are the big pullers afraid of the big dogs walking in and taking there titles?? 
Andy I would love to know. Is the ABDA pit world that afraid???

May I suggest you get your temper # from UKC and actually go to a pull and see what they are about before you just sit here and bash them. 
I would love to pull ABDA if they would open there door so I can see what they are all about. But that will NEVER happen. What a SHAME!

Deb
__________________
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesnt merely try to train him to be semi human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog."


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

*Posted by OFK*



> And to burst your bubble but AKC is the HARDEST place to get titles in.


The AKC doesn't show APBT...........so that was kinda irrelevant.



> May I suggest you get your temper # from UKC and actually go to a pull and see what they are about before you just sit here and bash them.


Another kennel friend did, CH-WP from no leg to CH in 3 shows........



> but what the ABDA pulls are nothing more then a little glory for pits that have been pulling for years and do not allow the newbies to get any glory.


Again a friend with RCK their dog Ace'd in the ADBA and is just 2 years of age........



> I did read in ABDA WP Rules, they do not use any other vehicles but rails. Why is that??? At least in UKC you have to prove your dog can pull other things besides just one.


Dont know, would be fun on other surfaces too. You dont really have to prove anything, just about any dog can pull 10x its body weight, just do it enough times.



> And if you would have actually read my post you would have seen that they have MANY titles to prove the dog. Again pulling a dog with UKC and what that dog can do.


I did and to get any of those titles in WP just go to enough shows...........



> I will still like them b/c I CAN PULL ALL MY DOGS FROM MY STAFFIES TO MY PIT TO MY PRESAS


That is nice of the UKC,



> So why not answer me why ABDA Clubs will not allow other breeds???
> Are the big pullers afraid of the big dogs walking in and taking there titles??


For the longest time, since 1973 its been specifically APBT, orginally in 1909 it was all breed. Recently it has gone back to All Breed but clubs are slow to organize. The clubs that are currently organized are APBT specific therefore so are their shows. I would imagine in the near future you will see all breed clubs forming. Same as AADR I would say.



> Are the big pullers afraid of the big dogs walking in and taking there titles??
> Andy I would love to know. Is the ABDA pit world that afraid???


.....uh no..............

As I said its my opinion and based on what I have seen it wont change.

Why do you have a problem with points being awarded only to the best 3? I mean if they are CH pull dogs and the title is for CH why should any dog be able to get it? It kinda destroys the whole concept of CH Dog?????

*ACE* ---as defined by webster---
: a person who excels at something

*CHAMPION*----
a winner of first prize or first place in competition; also : one who shows marked superiority

So not just anyone should be awarded such titles.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

OldFortKennels said:


> The AKC doesn't show APBT...........so that was kinda irrelevant.


Actually it is not irrelevant as you and most others know that Pit bulls and AmStaffs are being dual registered so many of your AKC judges are judging Pit bulls in the ring. just as other registries are doing it as well.

And I just stated them b/c they are the hardest out of all the registries.



OldFortKennels said:


> Another kennel friend did, CH-WP from no leg to CH in 3 shows........


Are you sure he got a UWPCH and not a UWP (qualifying title) b/c you can get your UWP title in 3 pulls. 
Your friends dog would have had to pull at the most weight pulled 
CART = 35x body weight only getting 20 points 
RAILS = 45x body weight only getting 20 points
SLED = 15x body weight only getting 20 points. 
Each one of there pulls you only get to max out at 20 points, unless you received Most Weight Pulled or Most Weight Pulled by body weight and they both = to 5 points 
SO no where your friend received a CH title in Weight pull



OldFortKennels said:


> Again a friend with RCK their dog Ace'd in the ADBA and is just 2 years of age........


Thats great good for him



OldFortKennels said:


> Dont know, would be fun on other surfaces too. You dont really have to prove anything, just about any dog can pull 10x its body weight, just do it enough times.


But not all dogs will pull on other surfaces and if that dog is only pulling 10x body damn it will take over 2 yrs to get his title unless there was a pull every weekend. Damn I wish there was pulls every weekend or every other weeekend 



OldFortKennels said:


> I did and to get any of those titles in WP just go to enough shows...........


Oh and umm you can not just go pull and get those titles NOT all dogs will pull rails or sled. So not all titles will get award.



OldFortKennels said:


> That is nice of the UKC,


Dont you think it is fair that other dogs pull. or are you one of those that think only the pits should be there?



OldFortKennels said:


> For the longest time, since 1973 its been specifically APBT, orginally in 1909 it was all breed. Recently it has gone back to All Breed but clubs are slow to organize. The clubs that are currently organized are APBT specific therefore so are their shows. I would imagine in the near future you will see all breed clubs forming. Same as AADR I would say.


I truly believe when ABDA decided to go all breed they should have made there clubs do the same MY OPINION



OldFortKennels said:


> .....uh no..............
> 
> As I said its my opinion and based on what I have seen it wont change.


What have you seen NOTHING cuz you wont even give it a chance to see. Isnt pulling suppose to be fun?????



OldFortKennels said:


> Why do you have a problem with points being awarded only to the best 3? I mean if they are CH pull dogs and the title is for CH why should any dog be able to get it? It kinda destroys the whole concept of CH Dog?????


I do not have a problem with it. I believe that all the different pull organizations have decided to make there own rules and all have been fun to go too. And like I stated before if ABDA would allow other dogs to pull I would be there. Why not get your club your in to allow other breeds. Then let me know when the pull is. I will register and be there!



OldFortKennels said:


> *ACE* ---as defined by webster---
> : a person who excels at something
> 
> *CHAMPION*----
> a winner of first prize or first place in competition; also : one who shows marked superiority


Thanks for the definations. Why are you so down on dogs getting there titles if they get better and better at pulling as they go. Not all dogs jump right to it some move a bit slower and then learn as they go. I have seen dogs come off of being slow and now are DAMN good pullers and these definations can stand for them as well.



OldFortKennels said:


> So not just anyone should be awarded such titles.


 Well this can go for you as well. Why are you so against coming and getting titles on your dogs if they are so great bring them to the UKC pull on all the different vehicles and prove that your dogs are the best to get those titles.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> Are you sure he got a UWPCH and not a UWP (qualifying title) b/c you can get your UWP title in 3 pulls.
> Your friends dog would have had to pull at the most weight pulled
> CART = 35x body weight only getting 20 points
> RAILS = 45x body weight only getting 20 points
> ...


Yeah First show, 3 pulls UWP

Next two shows, 6 pulls CH dog, 45x body weight x 6 pulls is 120 points.



> But not all dogs will pull on other surfaces and if that dog is only pulling 10x body damn it will take over 2 yrs to get his title unless there was a pull every weekend. Damn I wish there was pulls every weekend or every other weeekend


7- 3 day shows and you got it



> Oh and umm you can not just go pull and get those titles NOT all dogs will pull rails or sled. So not all titles will get award.


I agree whole heartedly, my point is that you can have a CH title and never place 1-3 or win a single trophy.



> Dont you think it is fair that other dogs pull. or are you one of those that think only the pits should be there?


I think it would be perfectly fair, I also think that Specific shows are fine also. If you dont like it then dont show in that association.



> What have you seen NOTHING cuz you wont even give it a chance to see. Isnt pulling suppose to be fun?????


Pulling is fun, I dont think titles should should be given away either, Just like I dont think everyone should get an "A" in school, I think it should be earned.


> Thanks for the definations. Why are you so down on dogs getting there titles if they get better and better at pulling as they go. Not all dogs jump right to it some move a bit slower and then learn as they go. I have seen dogs come off of being slow and now are DAMN good pullers and these definations can stand for them as well.


Well why wouldnt it make sense then for the dogs to get the points once they have gotten good? By your own admision they are giving points to dogs that need to improve but yet they are getting points.


> Well this can go for you as well. Why are you so against coming and getting titles on your dogs if they are so great bring them to the UKC pull on all the different vehicles and prove that your dogs are the best to get those titles.


We have gone to one that was close but they didnt have a WP, We did however enter the Conformation Show and Rebel took Best Male.

As I have stated the UKC titles are meaningless to me so they are not a priority. Once my dogs have gotten their titles in the ADBA and NKC (which by the way is all breed so you are more than welcome) I will then turn to the UKC. Funds is another reason.

*PLEASE DO NOT THINK THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE ARE GREAT PULLING DOGS IN THE UKC!!!* That is not at all what I am trying to say. What I am saying is the title that the GREAT PULLING DOGS IN THE UKC HAVE dont mean so much because a poor pulling dog can have one too, so what is to differentiate the two dogs?

What it boils down to....I dont think just any dog should be given a CH title. I think the dog should be a CH DOG and not all dogs are CH quality pulling dogs. *I do not believe that a dog that DOES NOT PLACE IN THE TOP 3 IN WP SHOULD BE GIVEN A TITLE OF CHAMPION PULL DOG!!!!* That is my problem with the UKC plain and simple. If I dont have a dog that can place in the top 3 my dog does not deserve to be a CHWP, that just doesn't make sense. This is why the titles are irrelevant to me. So what a dog is CH in the UKC, it may be a great dog, then again it may just be an average dog that went to enough shows.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue, feel free to chime in. Both Geisthexe and I are simply debating and all is civil, no hard feelings here so feel free to give your imput. I for one would like to hear from others.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

OldFortKennels said:


> Yeah First show, 3 pulls UWP
> 
> Next two shows, 6 pulls CH dog, 45x body weight x 6 pulls is 120 points.


Wouldn't that indicate a good puller if he/she is pulling 45x its body weight?? 
I believe it would!



OldFortKennels said:


> 7- 3 day shows and you got it


I agree but if you think about it, if a dog is only pulling that much most of them shut down and will not pull at all. Not to mention UKC does not do at least on the east coast 2 shows that I know of that have 3 pulls in one weekend. And another most people in the south do not travel to the North E and visa versa.



OldFortKennels said:


> I agree whole heartedly, my point is that you can have a CH title and never place 1-3 or win a single trophy.


I wish the UKC gave out trophies. 
but let me give you an example in my world of weight pulling. I never have dogs in my catagory 125 lbs so in that case who would I be beating to get 1st place? No one unless I bring another dog in that weight catagory. So for me My dogs would NEVER place with ADBA b/c of lack of interest from big dog owners.



OldFortKennels said:


> I think it would be perfectly fair, I also think that Specific shows are fine also. If you dont like it then dont show in that association.


Hun, I fully agree with specific specialities being put on and having own breed pulls but if the organization has opened it doors then they should make the clubs do it as well. And your statement about not liking it, well how can I say I dont want to decide not to pull for them if they do not give me the chance to be there?



OldFortKennels said:


> Pulling is fun, I dont think titles should should be given away either, Just like I dont think everyone should get an "A" in school, I think it should be earned.


Again, you are missing the point about the other titles UKC gives, this is why they have many other titles for the dog to prove itself. 
If you think about it, dogs win in shows that should NEVER win a breed. Due to lack of meeting standards.



OldFortKennels said:


> Well why wouldnt it make sense then for the dogs to get the points once they have gotten good? By your own admision they are giving points to dogs that need to improve but yet they are getting points.


Again, you are missing the point, it takes time for a dog to understand and get good, just like a kid being on a baseball team, he may never get out on the field but he still has to bat, he may get walked or strike out but should that team win b/c he is not a good enough player? No I think not.



OldFortKennels said:


> We have gone to one that was close but they didnt have a WP, We did however enter the Conformation Show and Rebel took Best Male.


Congrats! tell me did Rebel deserve to win? I bet he did and I bet he actaully looked like a pit in the ring. Correct??



OldFortKennels said:


> As I have stated the UKC titles are meaningless to me so they are not a priority. Once my dogs have gotten their titles in the ADBA and NKC (which by the way is all breed so you are more than welcome) I will then turn to the UKC. Funds is another reason.


Ok so they are meaningless to you but to most that are with them they mean the world, just like for me, as I do not have many places I can do things with my dogs as not enough are doing anything or they are showing only with AKC.
And about NKC well darlin I will be there after Premier for UKC as I plan on pulling and showing with them.



OldFortKennels said:


> *PLEASE DO NOT THINK THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE ARE GREAT PULLING DOGS IN THE UKC!!!* That is not at all what I am trying to say. What I am saying is the title that the GREAT PULLING DOGS IN THE UKC HAVE dont mean so much because a poor pulling dog can have one too, so what is to differentiate the two dogs?


It all depends on how you look at the difference as I see the difference when they move on to get better and better titles. But see I see the cup half full when it comes to the titles of UKC not them half empty

Andy do me a favor and explain more about the 1st thru 3rd. Are they are each weight catagory or is it for over all? 
B/c if it is over all then dogs like my staffie would have a very hard time EVER getting a 1st thru 3rd.

Deb

What it boils down to....I dont think just any dog should be given a CH title. I think the dog should be a CH DOG and not all dogs are CH quality pulling dogs. *I do not believe that a dog that DOES NOT PLACE IN THE TOP 3 IN WP SHOULD BE GIVEN A TITLE OF CHAMPION PULL DOG!!!!* That is my problem with the UKC plain and simple. If I dont have a dog that can place in the top 3 my dog does not deserve to be a CHWP, that just doesn't make sense. This is why the titles are irrelevant to me. So what a dog is CH in the UKC, it may be a great dog, then again it may just be an average dog that went to enough shows.[/QUOTE]


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

OldFortKennels said:


> Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue, feel free to chime in. Both Geisthexe and I are simply debating and all is civil, no hard feelings here so feel free to give your imput. I for one would like to hear from others.


OFK dont you know we are beating each other down and being mean .. cuz my feelings are hurt dammit LOL :snap:

I would love to see others give some imput on the matter. Not to mention seeing if we have some other pullers here.

Please post

Deb


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I for one would love to get into to pulling but since I live in MN and have yet to hear of any WP shows here I think it is out of the question for me. I did enjoy your debate and I did learn alot so if by some chance there is achance for me and my dogs I will at least know something.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> Originally Posted by OldFortKennels
> Yeah First show, 3 pulls UWP
> 
> Next two shows, 6 pulls CH dog, 45x body weight x 6 pulls is 120 points.
> ...


Yeah Actually the dog did it in less as it took 1st once and placed all times.*



> but let me give you an example in my world of weight pulling. I never have dogs in my catagory 125 lbs so in that case who would I be beating to get 1st place? No one unless I bring another dog in that weight catagory. So for me My dogs would NEVER place with ADBA b/c of lack of interest from big dog owners.


Actually if you go down to TX there are alot of 100 LB+ dogs and there were several in NC. Also you would be competing against all dogs 75lbs and over. And in the ADBA its body pound so you could compete just fine.



> Again, you are missing the point about the other titles UKC gives, this is why they have many other titles for the dog to prove itself.
> If you think about it, dogs win in shows that should NEVER win a breed. Due to lack of meeting standards.


I must have missed something, all Im talking about is WP.



> Again, you are missing the point, it takes time for a dog to understand and get good, just like a kid being on a baseball team, he may never get out on the field but he still has to bat, he may get walked or strike out but should that team win b/c he is not a good enough player? No I think not


I dont think Im missing the point. Of course the kid should get to bat but not be called an all star just because he got to bat enough and did the minimum enough.



> Congrats! tell me did Rebel deserve to win? I bet he did and I bet he actaully looked like a pit in the ring. Correct??


I thought so but Im biased!!:roll:



> Ok so they are meaningless to you but to most that are with them they mean the world, just like for me, as I do not have many places I can do things with my dogs as not enough are doing anything or they are showing only with AKC.
> And about NKC well darlin I will be there after Premier for UKC as I plan on pulling and showing with them.


Can I honestly ask you a question. Im sure you have great dogs, Im not questioning that and I dont know what Titles your dogs have but would they not mean more to you if not EVERYONE COULD GET ONE???? What makes the title special? What gives it its worth if anyone can do it? Thats my point. I dont know, You could very well have dogs that would be titled even if they only gave points for 1-3 and wouldnt that then mean something??? Im just saying when someone tells me they have a UKC CHWP dog it doesn't really tell me anything about that dog. Now in the ADBA they say they have an ACE I know it is an above average dog.



> Andy do me a favor and explain more about the 1st thru 3rd. Are they are each weight catagory or is it for over all?
> B/c if it is over all then dogs like my staffie would have a very hard time EVER getting a 1st thru 3rd.


Yess it is 1-3 in each weight class, male and female, 8,5,3 points respectively with additional points for BODY POUND 54 and under 55 and over. I believe its 10 points for the body pound.

Classes are 
35 and under
35-45
45-55
55-65
65-75
and 75 and over.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

By the way I really do hope you can make some of our NKC shows. I think you will have a blast and it would be great to meet another WP enthusiast who is out working their dogs!!! Oh and I think we should have enough weight for your big boys. I think we now have close to 10,000lbs.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

OldFortKennels said:


> Yeah Actually the dog did it in less as it took 1st once and placed all times.*


So are you saying that dog was a good puller or just ok?



OldFortKennels said:


> Actually if you go down to TX there are alot of 100 LB+ dogs and there were several in NC. Also you would be competing against all dogs 75lbs and over. And in the ADBA its body pound so you could compete just fine.


Well, I am not going to travel to TX to find dogs my weight catagory, b/c they would never travel to me. I tell that even to the Presa people b/c they always want me to travel 15 and 16 hours to them but I get F**ked if I ask.

As for NC well I have been to UKC, IWPA, APA pulls and I have only met one guy with an american bulldog. 
Well like I said if ADBA would open the doors I would be there.



OldFortKennels said:


> Can I honestly ask you a question. Im sure you have great dogs, Im not questioning that and I dont know what Titles your dogs have but would they not mean more to you if not EVERYONE COULD GET ONE????


If I had more Presa's or dogs in my weight catagory I would question it maybe but as it stands right now there is ONLY two people that pull Presa's and that would be me and a lady named Cathy in CA and she does not pull enough to call her any competition. I have 3 Presa's pulling now and they are my ownly competition.



OldFortKennels said:


> What makes the title special?


Well my titles on very special to me b/c I am the only one that will have a UWPCH on a Presa EVER and I will have two dogs with them when the Virginia Beach pull in May.



OldFortKennels said:


> What gives it its worth if anyone can do it?


Well, in my breed not all dog it and most complain about me pulling my Presa's. 
But when it comes to the other dogs, well I see some pretty impressive dogs pull and I totally believe they deserve there titles and I also believe that some that are just starting like my friend and her **** hounds pulling. It is coming rather slow but damn they do have heart for pulling just not pulling lots of weight yet. So yes I do believe if they can and will do it then they deserve the title they are receiving. Are they CHs yet NO they are just starting.



OldFortKennels said:


> Thats my point. I dont know, You could very well have dogs that would be titled even if they only gave points for 1-3 and wouldnt that then mean something??? Im just saying when someone tells me they have a UKC CHWP dog it doesn't really tell me anything about that dog. Now in the ADBA they say they have an ACE I know it is an above average dog.


Again I am not saying that the ADBA pulls and there rules are bad, what I am saying is they need to open the doors. I would be there if they did. So how about your club or the club you are in .. give it a chance and open the doors. I can get dogs to come if you want to be the first



OldFortKennels said:


> Yess it is 1-3 in each weight class, male and female, 8,5,3 points respectively with additional points for BODY POUND 54 and under 55 and over. I believe its 10 points for the body pound.
> 
> Classes are
> 35 and under
> ...


Thank you that gave me a more understanding of there rules. So IF they open there doors ever then I know my dogs can pull.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

MY MIKADO said:


> I for one would love to get into to pulling but since I live in MN and have yet to hear of any WP shows here I think it is out of the question for me. I did enjoy your debate and I did learn alot so if by some chance there is achance for me and my dogs I will at least know something.


UNITED KENNEL CLUB

Are you close to either one of these clubs in your state

A-1 DOG TRAINING CLUB OF MINNEAPOLIS(MN-26) 
AG = agility, CON = conformation, OB = obedience, WP = weight pull 
Contact: JAN FREY,
9985 277TH AVE NW,
ZIMMERMAN, Minnesota 55398
(612) 856-3818
[email protected]

MINNESOTA MIXED BREED CLUB (MN-33) 
AG = agility, DS = Dog Sport, OB = obedience, WP = weight pull 
Contact: JIM NALLY,
499 MARNIE ST,
MAPLEWOOD, Minnesota 55119
(612) 739-8505
[email protected]

FAMILY DOG CENTER (WI-0088) 
CON,AG,OB,WP 
Contact: JIM HANNO,
1150 CRESCENT HILLS DR,
LA CRESCENT, Minnesota 55947
507-895-7702
[email protected]
www.FAMILYDOGCENTER.COM

These are the UKC weight pull clubs in your state, get a hold of them and see about getting involved to getting someone to let you know about the pulls

_____________________________________________________________

INTERNATIONAL WEIGHT PULL ASSOCATION

You will be in region 4 and the season does not start again until August 08 and goes thru March 09

Here is there website http://www.iwpa.net/
_____________________________________________________________

AMERICAN PULL ALLIANCE

Here is there website you will have to watch for there pulls 
http://www.weightpull.com/

If you need any help please feel free to ask, as I have pulled with all three of them

Best of luck

Deb


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

OldFortKennels said:


> By the way I really do hope you can make some of our NKC shows. I think you will have a blast and it would be great to meet another WP enthusiast who is out working their dogs!!! Oh and I think we should have enough weight for your big boys. I think we now have close to 10,000lbs.


I will be, I just have to complete some things in the UKC with my Presa's since this is where they are reconized. I want as many titles I can get on my dogs.

Thank you for the complements on my dogs but I wish they were pulling 10,000 damn I would rock all the pulls LOL 
I look forward to meeting you inperson as it will be fun to pull together.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

Don't know much about WP and the way it works but I don't believe in rewarding any mediocraty, in any event. Not trying to step on any toes here. It's just something I do not beleive in. I'd hate to see every NFL team get a superbowl ring just because they showed up for every game. LOL


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

buzhunter said:


> Don't know much about WP and the way it works but I don't believe in rewarding any mediocraty, in any event. Not trying to step on any toes here. It's just something I do not beleive in. I'd hate to see every NFL team get a superbowl ring just because they showed up for every game. LOL


Buz

In reality about WP it is suppose to be about:
- Dog of all breeds, weights and drive to do it
- Weight % of body weight being pulled
- Time 60 seconds
- Vehicle (Wheels, Rails, & Sled) 
- 16 feet from start to finish
So with that it means dog is against the other things I listed. It fun to see what dog can out pull another one. I know this is what I have to do with my dogs b/c of the size so I find it a BLAST when I kick the other dogs butts for most weight pulled. And I find it another blast when they kick my butts again and I have to strive for a better weight. But then I find it fun for the individual dog and what they can do.

So with this said here are the different Organizations:

UKC goes by the individual dog then goes by most weight pulled & most weight pulled by % of body weight

ADBA goes by the how much that dog can pull and only giving the first 3 dogs the best titles.

IWPA goes by the individual dog so they can get titles and then you get points for the first 3 to get a gold, silver, bronze metal

APA goes by the individual dog and also they then have there STAR program that dogs get points to win there titles (oh and designed by ADBA pullers)

NKC you can get your titles because it is about the individual dog but the points only go to 1st thru 3rd.

I like the FACT that they are about the Individual dog and proving what it can do and it getting better and better.

ALL of the organizations have 
MOST WEIGHT PULLED 
MOST WEIGHT PULLED BY % OF BODY WEIGHT

So if you look each are a bit different but they all work and show the dogs can do something. I find it even more GRAND if you can go to all or most and get titles b/c then you are proving your dog deserves the titles.

Sorry but your analogy of NFL and a sport that is for an individual makes no sense.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

geisthexe said:


> Sorry but your analogy of NFL and a sport that is for an individual makes no sense.


I hear you. I was just making a point. I guess what I mean is that there seems to be just too many ways to win in these events. If I was going to start a WP club, there would be only one winner at any given event and that would be the dog who pulled the most times his body weight. All others would have to go home and practice. LOL Guess if I ever do get into it, I'll have to just accept the rules of each particular club.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> In reality about WP it is suppose to be about:
> - Dog of all breeds, weights and drive to do it
> - Weight % of body weight being pulled
> - Time 60 seconds
> ...


Im not sure you are understanding my dilema with the UKC. I agree whole heartedly with you on MOST everything. Yes WP is about the dog competing against himself and the track. HOWEVER when you start awarding CH TITLES you are no longer measuring the dog against itself but dog against dog. *MY PROBLEM IS THAT THEY GIVE POINTS TO ANY DOG THAT PULLS MORE THAN 10X ITS BODY WEIGHT. That is my issue.* IMO dogs that do not place in the top 3 do not deseve points toward a CH TITLE. Its like little league baseball where no score is kept and everyone gets a trophy!

I hope you know that this was and is not an attack on your dogs or their titles.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

OldFortKennels said:


> Im not sure you are understanding my dilema with the UKC. I agree whole heartedly with you on MOST everything. Yes WP is about the dog competing against himself and the track. HOWEVER when you start awarding CH TITLES you are no longer measuring the dog against itself but dog against dog. *MY PROBLEM IS THAT THEY GIVE POINTS TO ANY DOG THAT PULLS MORE THAN 10X ITS BODY WEIGHT. That is my issue.* IMO dogs that do not place in the top 3 do not deseve points toward a CH TITLE. Its like little league baseball where no score is kept and everyone gets a trophy!
> 
> I hope you know that this was and is not an attack on your dogs or their titles.


Andy

I do not see you attacking my dogs at all. My dogs are not recognized by other registries except for most of the idiots ones like ARBA & RARITIES that do nothing but conformation. I am more then that. 
Like I said this weekend I will have the first UWPCH in UKC for Presa's and I know my Presa "Conan" pulls with the big dogs just in his first year. So does he deserve his title .. You are DAMN straight he does. 
But if you have ever seen my post with photos of him pulling on here then you would know I pull with more then just UKC and I plan on moving on to as many as I can. Like I said you will see me at the NKC pulls. As I am why NKC put the Presa Canario in the breed list. I have been talking to them for a while now. 
Anyway, I understand what you are saying but why not see it this way, it is a GREAT place for people to learn to pull and get there dog really going then move on to more. Kind of like me  
UKC and all the rest of the registries are just stepping stones for me and what plans I have for this breed at least the ones in my world.

I truly can not wait to meet you in person. Maybe I can get you to come out to a IWPA pull sometime and complete. We would have a blast.

Take care and see you in the pulls

Deb

PS I want to see you come out to at least ONE UKC PULL .. snow sled. Get those dogs on another track :woof:


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> Anyway, I understand what you are saying but why not see it this way, it is a GREAT place for people to learn to pull and get there dog really going then move on to more. Kind of like me
> UKC and all the rest of the registries are just stepping stones for me and what plans I have for this breed at least the ones in my world.


I agree!

And I would like to go to the PERRY GA UKC show as its close, the only thing that irritates me is that its a 2 day WP so I wont be able to get my UWP on the dogs and that sucks!!!!


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

OldFortKennels said:


> I agree!
> 
> And I would like to go to the PERRY GA UKC show as its close, the only thing that irritates me is that its a 2 day WP so I wont be able to get my UWP on the dogs and that sucks!!!!


How are are you from Virginia Beach VA? 
There is a pull here on May 3rd and 4th 
Then you can go to Perry and get your UWPs on your dogs.

I myself will not be in Perry GA in May as I will be in Bel Air MD much closer for me and I am meeting a lot of my WP friends there

Thanks for a GREAT debate about Pulling.


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## advocatekennels (May 8, 2008)

I wish the UKC gave out trophies. 
but let me give you an example in my world of weight pulling. I never have dogs in my catagory 125 lbs so in that case who would I be beating to get 1st place? No one unless I bring another dog in that weight catagory. So for me My dogs would NEVER place with ADBA b/c of lack of interest from big dog owners. 




He would if he got body lbs!! because even if there are say 2 dogs in the weight cat. couldn't a smaller say 55-65 lbs dog get the points if pull Xamount more than the bigger dog?? don't feel bad lol i have a 65lbs am staff we pulled for the first time and he barley got 1200 lol but we are working on that. he may just be strickly confirmation for fun:woof:


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

I don't no why I never caught this thread... I like both sides of the fence here and I think that there may have been a bit of confusion. I will say that I agree with OFK, only the best should walk away with titles! But I understand where Deb is coming from, all breed weight pulls rarely come this way. The ABKC has pulls here all of the time though and that annoys the crap outta me! Good thread though, where in the heck has it been hiding???


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Sorry, but I like the UKC's weight pull format. A dog should not have to be pushed to the bitter end to get points. It should do with how well they perform overall. And the UWPCH is not the top title by any means. If someone has a top-notch dog, they can go farther. Not to mention there is still MWP and MWPP.

The reason I don't pull ADBA is because the whole system is geared around pushing the dogs beyond the point where they are exhausted and want to quit. You only get points if you place, for one. So people are encouraged to squeeze just one more pull out of their dogs. And you get a bunch of tries (what is it, 3? 4?) to pull the weight, wheras in most clubs, they realize that if a dog doesn't pull it the second time, they're ready to quit. I see people barking at their dogs when they're struggling like mad to move a weight but can't, and those folks just wont give up because then they'd lose the points. The whole thing is perfect for folks to sacrifice the dogs in favor of the titles.

Weight pull should be fun. It should not be only for those who are supreme competitors. I like the UKC pulls because you'll see people with their show poodles and terriers and Corgis and retrievers and lots of other breeds trying out, going for total dog. Its not just the people with APBTs and ABs who do _nothing but_ weight pull. JMO.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> *Posted by OFK*
> IMO pulling 10x your body weight 20 times doenst constitute a title or worthy of a title.


It doesn't to you, but what if your dogs were Toy Fox Terriers? Or greyhounds? The UWP is engineered so breeds who aren't necessarily built for weight pull can achieve that title, since its a requirement to get the Superdog in the UKC. (Superdog = title in weight pull, agility, obedience and conformation.) Dogs are strong, yes, but I can't imagine what a challenge it would be to put a UWPCH on an Italian Greyhound, or a mini poodle, or whatever.

ETA: On the comment about what makes titles special if anyone can get them... Anybody _can_ get most titles out there, even mixed breeds. But 99% of people don't. That's one thing that gives them value: they show that the owner cares.

I mean think about it. You can get a UCD title in 3 trials pulling the bare minimum 170 points without beating the other dogs and still get your title. You can get a UAGI title in 3 trials without beating other dogs. You can get a WP3 in one pull without beating other dogs, or a WDS in three without beating other dogs.

It should be about what your dog can do, not who is better. My dogs, for example, will probably never beat the top pullers because we don't concentrate our energy in that one sport, and I don't breed or buy dogs specifically for it. We're doing the show thing, doing the agility thing, doing the obedience thing, want to do the dock diving thing. And yes, we do pull. But we pull within our means. Does that mean we shouldn't be able to get those titles if my dogs show up and work hard, just because there were other dogs that day that were better? I personally don't think so. There is always someone with a better dog.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

this may sound stupid,and correct me if im wrong,but wouldnt iwpa/apa titles be the most relevent/since this is all breed,just a question,thanx.
keith.........


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

UKC, IWPA, APA and UPF are all-breed. I don't know about the UPF's titles, but I know the IWPA doesn't offer any higher titles than the WDS, which is 3 pulls at 23x body weight. Easy pickings for these dogs. The APA offers single-pull titles, as well as progression titles. The UKC offers 3-pull titles and progression titles.

As far as what's the most relevant, that depends on what you're looking for. Generally speaking, other breeds don't pull as hard as our dogs, even those that were bred for it like Malamutes and Huskies. So while I like all-breed pulls for the diversity, much of the time, the other breeds don't provide appreciable competition going up against APBTs and American Bulldogs.

Which is one of the reasons I support titles being given based on how much a dog pulls, not who they beat.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

well considering that many of the dogs pulling as apbts are not actually what they are said to be,that leaves alot of space for a hybrid type also.again correct me if im wrong....I mean thats how alot of the hype around weight pull started correct?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Yes, Whopper was used to help get weight pull started in the ADBA. (Which makes little sense to me, but I guess it did to them.) I guess I don't really understand what you're asking. Back to your earlier question, though, one might argue that the ADBA titles have the most relevance for our breed, because that is Pit Bull vs. Pit Bull (Whopper mutts notwithstanding). But since I look at much more than weight pull titles, I would have greater admiration for a dog who had a UKC weight pull title, plus an obedience title, or something else.

JMO.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

bahamutt99 said:


> Yes, Whopper was used to help get weight pull started in the ADBA. (Which makes little sense to me, but I guess it did to them.) I guess I don't really understand what you're asking. Back to your earlier question, though, one might argue that the ADBA titles have the most relevance for our breed, because that is Pit Bull vs. Pit Bull (Whopper mutts notwithstanding). But since I look at much more than weight pull titles, I would have greater admiration for a dog who had a UKC weight pull title, plus an obedience title, or something else.
> 
> JMO.


Its not really my question[i dont believe,was it?i understand were your coming from.
To me the most relevant weight pull titles would be held in the iwpa and apa because its a all out battle regardless of weight of dog or purity,jmo..............


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Quote: It doesn't to you, but what if your dogs were Toy Fox Terriers? Or greyhounds? The UWP is engineered so breeds who aren't necessarily built for weight pull can achieve that title, since its a requirement to get the Superdog in the UKC. (Superdog = title in weight pull, agility, obedience and conformation.) Dogs are strong, yes, but I can't imagine what a challenge it would be to put a UWPCH on an Italian Greyhound, or a mini poodle, or whatever

This IMO sounds like a fault on the UKC... If most breeds aren't built for pulling why would it be required? Really, it sounds cruel to push a dog to it's limits but it doesn't sound cruel to make a poodle pull? That doesn't make sense. Not to mention, pushing the limits is the point of competition, it's the thrill of any sport. Well, I guess it comes down to this; if you favor one club over another just stick to that club.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Accidentally double posted... Sorry guys


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> The reason I don't pull ADBA is because the whole system is geared around pushing the dogs beyond the point where they are exhausted and want to quit.


 I know times have changed but, God, is there anything that sets this breed apart anymore? I mean if an APBT lets a cart full of weight cur him out... Well, I'm sure there are old timers rolling over in their graves as we speak. All that work...


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

cane76 said:


> Its not really my question[i dont believe,was it?i understand were your coming from.
> To me the most relevant weight pull titles would be held in the iwpa and apa because its a all out battle regardless of weight of dog or purity,jmo..............


Cane

You are correct and incorrect. 
IWPA to obtain the following titles
WD1 = 4 pulls @ 12 times the body weight
WD2 = 3 pulls @ 18 times the body weight
WD3 = 3 pulls @ 23 times the body weight 
After you get those titles you have no where else to go unless you want to fight for a medial each year and to be invited to Nationals. 
(EX: Conan (my Presa) Pepper (my Staffie) obtained WD3s and Silver Medials last season for them, you do not have to go through each title with them you can get what your dog will pull. So now me pulling with them I can only go for the Nationals.

APA to obtain the following titles: 
WP1 = 12 x only pulling once
WP2 = 18 x only pulling once
WP3 = 23 x only pulling once
Again I on Pepper I have a WP3 & on Conan a WP2 (hoping to obtain WP3 the following weekend :woof: ) 
But they have STARS 
WP STAR Titles are earned after completing 100 pts towards each star title.
100 pts = STAR 1
200 pts = STAR 2
300 pts = STAR 3
Star 1 certficates will be mailed to the owner throughout the season when the dog has earned 100 points.
Star 2 (and above) plaques and plates will be awarded at the end of each season at the Championships.

NONE of these organizations are like ADBA so it is the dog against the cart/rails/sled and the time. The ONLY thing you are fighting to get is MOST WEIGHT PULLED / MOST WEIGHT PULLED BY % OF BODY WEIGHT

So with all this said Titles from UKC would stand much more then a title from these organizations due to you have to pull and pull or get many most weight pulls to obtain points towards there titles not to mention you have to train your dog to pull on different systems. ADBA does not do that. 
I think a TRUE WEIGHT PULL DOG is one that can not just pull heavy weight BUT can also pull on different systems.

I hope I answered your question.

Deb


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

reddoggy said:


> Quote: It doesn't to you, but what if your dogs were Toy Fox Terriers? Or greyhounds? The UWP is engineered so breeds who aren't necessarily built for weight pull can achieve that title, since its a requirement to get the Superdog in the UKC. (Superdog = title in weight pull, agility, obedience and conformation.) Dogs are strong, yes, but I can't imagine what a challenge it would be to put a UWPCH on an Italian Greyhound, or a mini poodle, or whatever
> 
> This IMO sounds like a fault on the UKC... If most breeds aren't built for pulling why would it be required? Really, it sounds cruel to push a dog to it's limits but it doesn't sound cruel to make a poodle pull? That doesn't make sense. Not to mention, pushing the limits is the point of competition, it's the thrill of any sport. Well, I guess it comes down to this; if you favor one club over another just stick to that club.


You could not be more wrong.. the other breeds that are not designed to pull. ARE NOT REQUIRED to do this type of event. The owners try them in it. I have just got finished training a friend of mine Treein Cure and her Treein Walker (hounds) Her Treein Cure is one fine puller and he loves it. 
I am sorry but there are many types of testing or titling people do on there dogs that should be cruel. IE Hanging time. Sorry but people do not know what they are doing on the teeth and jaw structure. (now I am not trying to start anything by posting this example, I am just pointing out something that is bad but people do it.) 
NONE of the judges would in the UKC would allow anyone to pull if they feel the dog is not able to do it. Many of the judges after the pull is over and the folks want to see what there dog will do with a Harness or the cart behind them, the judges allow them to try. And will tell them the dog needs training and how to get started. But in my opinion ANY dog can pull just will never meet what bull breeds can.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

buzhunter said:


> I know times have changed but, God, is there anything that sets this breed apart anymore? I mean if an APBT lets a cart full of weight cur him out... Well, I'm sure there are old timers rolling over in their graves as we speak. All that work...


Buz dont worry they are only turning in there graves because there own registry went ALL BREED. But the folks now are to affraid to all the other breeds to come do what they were designed to do.

Sorry but pulling was not created by the APBT it was the folks in the snow for everyday life that started it .. your so called old times in the sport just made a sport.

Malamutes / huskys (non bull breeds) are still you original pullers.

Oh and another history lesson.... English mastiffs back in 300 bc were war dogs they PULLED the big guns out for battle.

Mastiffs are your orginial heavy weight pullers.

Deb


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

I understand that, Deb. The pit bull was not bred for pulling contests it just so happens they they excell in the sport due to the drive built into them by the old timers. I can understand another breed getting a pass. How much can other breed owners really expect from natural born curs? But in the case of the APBT, Nobody should feel sorry for a quitter, in any competition. The owner should be wise enough to buy, breed, or bring a winner but be honorable enough to throw in the towel when it's over. Pushing a dog beyond his limits should be considered a disgrace but at the same time, an APBT who has to be pushed is the sad reality of the new direction of the breed. The ADBA can eat as far as I'm concerned. There are plenty of registries out there for regular dogs. They are sell outs, IMO.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

geisthexe said:


> You could not be more wrong.. the other breeds that are not designed to pull. ARE NOT REQUIRED to do this type of event. The owners try them in it. I have just got finished training a friend of mine Treein Cure and her Treein Walker (hounds) Her Treein Cure is one fine puller and he loves it.
> I am sorry but there are many types of testing or titling people do on there dogs that should be cruel. IE Hanging time. Sorry but people do not know what they are doing on the teeth and jaw structure. (now I am not trying to start anything by posting this example, I am just pointing out something that is bad but people do it.)
> NONE of the judges would in the UKC would allow anyone to pull if they feel the dog is not able to do it. Many of the judges after the pull is over and the folks want to see what there dog will do with a Harness or the cart behind them, the judges allow them to try. And will tell them the dog needs training and how to get started. But in my opinion ANY dog can pull just will never meet what bull breeds can.


Why are you quoting me? You are correcting another poster with this one. And Deb, Hun, you gotta quit telling people that they could not be more wrong... Really not cool! If you are trying to teach, the first few words should NOT piss the reader off. Just a thought.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

reddoggy said:


> This IMO sounds like a fault on the UKC... If most breeds aren't built for pulling why would it be required?


A UWP is required to get a Superdog title. The point is to show the most versatile dog. And in order to get a UWP, all the dog would have to do is pull 8x body weight on wheels, or 10 on rails. (Or 3 on snow.) My point is, its easy for our dogs, not for others. So downing the process of getting to a UWPCH for a "lesser" dog is really not appropriate, IMO. Pit Bull people view the world from a Pit Bull perspective, and tend to forget that other dogs can't always do what ours do.

Other breeds aren't built for pulling. Our breed isn't mentally the best to do obedience or agility, since there are other dogs around and it involves off-leash work. I personally think it evens out, at least as far as the Superdog thing goes.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

buzhunter said:


> I know times have changed but, God, is there anything that sets this breed apart anymore? I mean if an APBT lets a cart full of weight cur him out... Well, I'm sure there are old timers rolling over in their graves as we speak. All that work...


A lot of the dogs _don't_ quit. They'll stand there digging in place because they can't even get the load started. But these are still dogs, not machines. If you let them hit their limits and get beaten by the weight all the time, how long before they realize its not even really worth the effort? I think its absolutely ridiculous for handlers to take their dogs to the bitter end like that. I've pushed my dog before when I knew she could pull a weight that she wanted to wimp out on. But if she was really trying and couldn't do it, hell no I wouldn't keep on her. No title is worth it.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

This is a heated debate thay im not really part of[suprisingly enough],
Any ways,a little off topic,but for my money you cant beat a good line bred apbt/mastiff for extreme pulling,lol.........


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

cane76 said:


> This is a heated debate thay im not really part of[suprisingly enough],
> Any ways,a little off topic,but for my money you cant beat a good line bred apbt/mastiff for extreme pulling,lol.........


I agree! It's strange that you haven't popped up a whole lot on this one... You feeling alright? And as far as the pit/mastiff, you couldn't be more right. I was just thinking about that lastnight. What do you guys think of neo-mastiffs, are they too sluggish for this type of stuff? I know bull mastiffs have it in them but I don't know much about the neo(yet).


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Big dogs usually pull big weight however POUND for POUND the smaller dogs USUALLY WIN on body percentage which is all that really matters. So what if a 100lb dog pulls 5000lbs? thats 50x its weight. Now if a 55lbs dog pulls it its 90.9 x his body weight. At 95% of the shows we attend the big dogs, 
75lb + dont win the 55lbs and over body pound trophy, the smaller dogs do. They may win the Most weight pulled but not the Body Pound and thats what determines the dog, IMO> Body percentages make it a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD regardless.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

This is one of the things that I did like at the VSBA show. There were no weight classes, 1-3 was awarded by Body Pound! SO all dogs were equal. It didnt matter if your dog was 35lbs, 55lbs or 120lbs, it all went by Body Pound Percentages so the best 3 dogs out of the whole show took 1-3 accordinly.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

buzhunter said:


> I understand that, Deb. The pit bull was not bred for pulling contests it just so happens they they excell in the sport due to the drive built into them by the old timers. I can understand another breed getting a pass. How much can other breed owners really expect from natural born curs? But in the case of the APBT, Nobody should feel sorry for a quitter, in any competition. The owner should be wise enough to buy, breed, or bring a winner but be honorable enough to throw in the towel when it's over. Pushing a dog beyond his limits should be considered a disgrace but at the same time, an APBT who has to be pushed is the sad reality of the new direction of the breed. The ADBA can eat as far as I'm concerned. There are plenty of registries out there for regular dogs. They are sell outs, IMO.


Buz I am not saying that the old timers should not get kudos for what they designed in the dogs or the sport. But I am saying you must also give kudos of where they got the sport from... 
I will be honest I truly love watching a pit bull pull. 

Deb


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

reddoggy said:


> What do you guys think of neo-mastiffs, are they too sluggish for this type of stuff? I know bull mastiffs have it in them but I don't know much about the neo(yet).


I like the breed,they have alot more drive than the bull mastiff,but i'd have to say that due to many giant breeds poor hip's and the breeding for nothing more than aesthetic you may be hard pressed to find a good one,"FOR ANYTHING",now cross one to a "ab" or apbt and weve got a diffrent story all together,jmo.......................................


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

cane76 said:


> I like the breed,they have alot more drive than the bull mastiff,but i'd have to say that due to many giant breeds poor hip's and the breeding for nothing more than aesthetic you may be hard pressed to find a good one,"FOR ANYTHING",now cross one to a "ab" or apbt and weve got a diffrent story all together,jmo.......................................


I know this is totally off subject... But whatever! I found to locals with Neo Mastiffs, one has a good OFA score and is getting ready to breed and taking reservations, the pair they have look Italian but aren't that bulky and don't have all that extra skin. The other one is this lady who has a two y/o impoerted from the UK. She has long peds on her but the woman didn't specify her registration. I'm looking for a show dog right now and am leaning to the (NM). I also found some really decent rotties, which my wife wants because it's a familiar name. I know that there are alot of eyes on me because we have a few pits so I'd kinda like to stir away from "dangerous" breeds. From what I know the Neo is not agg at all, correct me if I'm mistaken. I guess I'm really wanting to get into the AKC, even though I'm not a big fan because AKC has alot of shows around here... Them and ABKC, if we want to show our pits we're gonna have to do quite a bit of traveling. Can I get some feed back?

Edit: Just found out that the Neo was actually a fighter and ended up being used for guard work


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

reddoggy said:


> Why are you quoting me? You are correcting another poster with this one. And Deb, Hun, you gotta quit telling people that they could not be more wrong... Really not cool! If you are trying to teach, the first few words should NOT piss the reader off. Just a thought.


I quoted you b/c I was talking to you. 
sorry you feel that I stated you are wrong but tell me do you PULL? 
If you do with WHO? 
If you don't why do you have an opinion you know nothing about?

I pull 3 different organizations 
- UKC
- APA
- IWPA
and I am moving on to two more
NKC & UPF
Again if ADBA would allow me to pull I would be there.

Just for you I will never say you are wrong again. Oops I dont care if you get mad at me .. its a forum. I have the right to call someone out if they WRONG.

I dont want to fight w/ you but come on .. why you going to allow your feelings to get hurt. ITS A FORUM!

I will not post back to this so do not bother replying. As I want to get back to the pull issue

Deb


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

reddoggy said:


> Edit: Just found out that the Neo was actually a fighter and ended up being used for guard work


yes there dominate and aggresive,
and the ones bred for shows are no good,gentic nightmares,lucky to live past 5yrs...a good working neo is a amazing animal,few and far between also.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

reddoggy said:


> I agree! It's strange that you haven't popped up a whole lot on this one... You feeling alright? And as far as the pit/mastiff, you couldn't be more right. I was just thinking about that lastnight. What do you guys think of neo-mastiffs, are they too sluggish for this type of stuff? I know bull mastiffs have it in them but I don't know much about the neo(yet).


I have seen the following pull in the Mastiff world
- Presa (mine & a friend of mine in Ca) 
- English Mastif
- Cane Corso
- Tosa
- Bull mastif
- CAO 
- Bermese
- Neo

If you are thinking a neo can pull they are not good for pulling. As they tire out very fast. The ones you can find overseas that are still in the correct design oh yeah they can pull and even work. But the ones that AKC has ruined oh no they can not pull at all ..

Deb


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

geisthexe said:


> I quoted you b/c I was talking to you.
> sorry you feel that I stated you are wrong but tell me do you PULL?
> If you do with WHO?
> If you don't why do you have an opinion you know nothing about?
> ...


Holy [email protected]!,
your turning into a presa canario,and a very dominate one.j/k.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

cane76 said:


> Holy [email protected]!,
> your turning into a presa canario,and a very dominate one.j/k.


And your the next for me to BITE gggrrr Gottcha .. did ya feel it..???

:rofl:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

um,presa dosent want to bite a game dog,if it knows whats good for it.:woof: anyways,get back to your bickering,i have nothing to add to this thred.the more insults the better,im bored,heheheheh..


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Too many more and it gets locked.


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## advocatekennels (May 8, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> IMO> Body percentages make it a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD regardless.


:goodpost:

I have never enjoyed any type of sport in my life (other than Formula D) until I got into weight pull. No matter how "political" the social groups attending are and no matter who has the most money or the best job, or the nicest car, its all on the dogs. You can't pay the judge off to allow who you want to win. This is the reason I love this sport. Its non bias - the dog pulls the weight or it doesn't. When Im at a show I am excited for all of the dogs there, I feel like I want them all to do well. I really don't care what type of dog they are because like Andy said, "body percentage makes it a level playing field." Pit, Am Staff, Presa, it doesn't matter.

This is just my opinion about the sport and the breeds.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Deb, I still fail to see where you corrected ME... Were you correcting my opinion? Sorry that I don't feel that a Chi or a JRT are meant to pull, that is my opinion and I'm entitled to it and you can't prove me wrong with any factual evidence. Uh, yeah, I'm not hurt over you choice of words, why would I be? I just think that telling people that they "couldn't be anymore wrong" speaks poorly of your personality and is a really crappy way to teach. No, I don't pull and how that is relevant is beyond me, again I think you were correcting someone else, though there was no grey box there was a quote on that post. That's enough of that though, had a class just got home and am catching up.

Cane- Yeah, I did a little bit of research, just touched the surface, and although I find the Neo to be a beautiful dog I don't think it's the breed for me... The life expectancy is 10 years, hip problems are very typical, thyroid is an issue, and appearantly they don't do well in warm weather. I live in AZ so that is not good for us. Tear gland removal is highly recommended cause they are prone to Cherry Eye, the list just keeps going. The AKC considers them a rare breed, stateside, and is loose with the conformation. I've been looking at breeders and none of their dogs look alike, weight wise, head shape and size, and some have turkey fat hanging off of their necks and some don't. I will continue to think they are just gorgeous beasts but I'm gonna have to pass them up. I'll just keep looking around and researching untill I find the right breed for our household. Any recommendations??? I would like a med to xl breed that's on the calmer side and less common.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Actually I've seen a JRT or two do well at the sport. They've got the drive to get 'er done.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Point was were they meant to do it??? I would like to see that though, that musta been fun to watch, if you should stumble upon any footage of that send it my way!


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Really, the only breeds that were meant to do anything close to weight pull would be the Malamutes, huskies, and so on.

Heres a video of Squiggy the JRT pulling.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

reddoggy said:


> Any recommendations??? I would like a med to xl breed that's on the calmer side and less common.


corso,presa canario
pure bred bandogge[thats what corso's and presas are anywho]
American bulldog would be some good choices[well thats what i like]all can be good pullers also to keep it related to the thred,ab's are up there with the best,and pure bred linebred bandogs hold world records in pulling and may not get the Body% but they are some of the most famous pull dogs of all time..


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

cane76 said:


> corso,presa canario
> pure bred bandogge[thats what corso's and presas are anywho]
> American bulldog would be some good choices[well thats what i like]all can be good pullers also to keep it related to the thred,ab's are up there with the best,and pure bred linebred bandogs hold world records in pulling and may not get the Body% but they are some of the most famous pull dogs of all time..


I love Bandogges, I'm really looking for something I can put in the show ring as well. I had been looking at presa canarios a while back and was impressed, but as I was just telling my wife I wanna kinda steer away from the "agg" breeds, she wants a rotty! All good suggestions though. Maybe a bull dog would be the way to go, boy lemme tell ya... They are a dime a dozen around here! Ppl keep telling me to go with a small dog, everybody loves small dogs. I don't. I don't want a yappy little pop dog, I want a dog that will stand out, a show stopper. Korks a great gaurd dog and when he's gone I'm probably gonna get a bandogge to pick up where he leaves off(hopefully 50 years from now!). I'll keep looking, if you think of anything out of the ordinary lemme know. A pull worthy dog would be great too!


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Have you looked at Dogo Argentinos? There are some concerning health problems with that breed -- hip dysplasia and deafness being the biggest issues -- but if you can get a good one, they're something else. I was happy with uncle Jedi, even though my heart always lied with the APBT. They're neat dogs.


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## PullDawgPits (Apr 15, 2008)

reddoggy said:


> I love Bandogges, I'm really looking for something I can put in the show ring as well. I had been looking at presa canarios a while back and was impressed, but as I was just telling my wife I wanna kinda steer away from the "agg" breeds, she wants a rotty! All good suggestions though. Maybe a bull dog would be the way to go, boy lemme tell ya... They are a dime a dozen around here! Ppl keep telling me to go with a small dog, everybody loves small dogs. I don't. I don't want a yappy little pop dog, I want a dog that will stand out, a show stopper. Korks a great gaurd dog and when he's gone I'm probably gonna get a bandogge to pick up where he leaves off(hopefully 50 years from now!). I'll keep looking, if you think of anything out of the ordinary lemme know. A pull worthy dog would be great too!


What about a Bernese Mountain Dog or a Swiss Mountain Dog? Both are very people friendly and not surrounded by stigma. They were originally bred as draft dogs and working dogs. Will fall into your AKC plans and they are awfully pretty.

Stephanie


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

Good suggestions, PullDawg, couldn't find breed info on the Swiss Mnt Dog...


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> Have you looked at Dogo Argentinos? There are some concerning health problems with that breed -- hip dysplasia and deafness being the biggest issues -- but if you can get a good one, they're something else. I was happy with uncle Jedi, even though my heart always lied with the APBT. They're neat dogs.


They are neat dogs! I am in love with the dogo, Oogy being my fav.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

dogos to tall and skinny to be a good pulldog,although if you can find a good thick one there pretty nice,i know a breeder who does good things with them as a hunting dog.as for the bermese mountain dogs,to hairy of a breed,jmo,not enough heart compared to a apbt as a puller...


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

So you see where my problem is coming from. It's gotta be a dog that can pretty much do everything and be AKC. Think I might be too damn picky but in my mind there has to be one out there that above and beyond. Maybe I was looking too far... Sudden realization, AmStaff???


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## PullDawgPits (Apr 15, 2008)

Well, Amstaff would be an obvious choice but I thought you wanted a dog without the mistaken identity problems.

Here is a link to the Greater(oops) Swiss Mountain Dog

http://www.gsmdca.org/

As for the Bernese having heart, they do an amazing amount of heart and drive. I owned one that would have killed himself trying to please me and was willing to go above and beyond, always.

Stephanie


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

cane76 said:


> dogos to tall and skinny to be a good pulldog,although if you can find a good thick one there pretty nice,


Aw, come on man. You know the best pullers are some scrawny lil' gamebred dogs, so how does being tall and skinny negate a dog's pulling ability? Some will tell you that leg is important, because it gives the dogs leverage.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

PullDawgPits said:


> Well, Amstaff would be an obvious choice but I thought you wanted a dog without the mistaken identity problems.
> 
> Here is a link to the Greater(oops) Swiss Mountain Dog
> 
> ...


Ooo, that's a neat dog! Thanks Steph, I'll do some more research on them. Yeah, I tols my wife that maybe AmStaff was the way to go and she pointed out the fact that I was trying to go for a much differeent breed, jumped to soon on that one...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

bahamutt99 said:


> Aw, come on man. You know the best pullers are some scrawny lil' gamebred dogs, so how does being tall and skinny negate a dog's pulling ability? Some will tell you that leg is important, because it gives the dogs leverage.


well then why arent you pulling your dogo?A low center of gravity seems more iimportant to me then a super tall dog,if that formula worked then geat danes would probably excell a "wp' right.also Are game dogs tall?18 too 20 inch seems short to me compared to lanky 25inch dogo,i like dogos by the way,but i prefer alittle bulk on mastiff breeds..


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

reddoggy said:


> Ooo, that's a neat dog! Thanks Steph, I'll do some more research on them. Yeah, I tols my wife that maybe AmStaff was the way to go and she pointed out the fact that I was trying to go for a much differeent breed, jumped to soon on that one...


how about dogue de bordeaux?
there about to be recognized by the akc,there protective,mellow, better than bullmastiff for sure and very nice looking in my opinion,i love those dogs...
It would be really cool to see somebody actally work there ddb...I like this boy,"vulcan",now this dog can pull..


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

French Mastiff??? I love them! I've wanted one for a while, I just wory about the temperament. It is such a pain in the butt to crate and rotate with the females we already have. I would have to shorten the rotations and that would suck for all dogs involved. Beautiful dog though, I'm dreaming about them right now. How do they do in pulling and show rings? $1200- $2000 doesn't sound too bad when you're talking show quality. I read that they have been temperamentally altered quite a bit.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

cane76 said:


> well then why arent you pulling your dogo?A low center of gravity seems more iimportant to me then a super tall dog,if that formula worked then geat danes would probably excell a "wp' right.also Are game dogs tall?18 too 20 inch seems short to me compared to lanky 25inch dogo,i like dogos by the way,but i prefer alittle bulk on mastiff breeds..


I don't pull our Dogo because he's 9 years old and never liked it. 

Game dogs are tall for the breed. And they pull better than the super-short chunks. Leg usually means a certain amount of athleticism, and dogs with leg (and the right amount of drive of course) are usually excellent pullers. Otherwise, Corgis and Dachshunds would be the preferred pulling dogs.


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## reddoggy (Jan 31, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> Really, the only breeds that were meant to do anything close to weight pull would be the Malamutes, huskies, and so on.
> 
> Heres a video of Squiggy the JRT pulling.


WOW! I withdraw my previous statements! That was amazing, what was he pulling? I am impressed!!!


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue, feel free to chime in. Both Geisthexe and I are simply debating and all is civil, no hard feelings here so feel free to give your imput. I for one would like to hear from others.


I'm chiming...with stupid bells. Have no clue as to what you are talking about, but this thread is very informative. So at least I am learning something!!!


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Red, no idea how much weight she was pulling there, but I got to see her pull at the IWPA Nationals in 2005. I love seeing your non-standard breeds pull.


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## buzhunter (Sep 3, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> Aw, come on man. You know the best pullers are some scrawny lil' gamebred dogs, so how does being tall and skinny negate a dog's pulling ability? Some will tell you that leg is important, because it gives the dogs leverage.


I have always heard the same about a longer leg. Make sense if you think about it. The longer the lever, the less effort it takes to move something...leverage. Being tall and skinny nagates nothing if you have the heart to get the job done. I could hide behind a garden hose but I've worn out some pretty hefty guys. That always pisses 'em off.


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> By the way I really do hope you can make some of our NKC shows. I think you will have a blast and it would be great to meet another WP enthusiast who is out working their dogs!!! Oh and I think we should have enough weight for your big boys. I think we now have close to 10,000lbs.


But NKC is separated on points for pit bulls and other dogs. I believe your pulls are pit bulls only. The titles for the bulldogs and other dogs pulling in NKC can be gotten in a day, they are like the IWPA titles. That is why so many NKC shows have APA pulls, the NKC all breed pulls are not attractive to the bulldogs and others.


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

PullDawgPits said:


> What about a Bernese Mountain Dog or a Swiss Mountain Dog? Both are very people friendly and not surrounded by stigma. They were originally bred as draft dogs and working dogs. Will fall into your AKC plans and they are awfully pretty.
> 
> Stephanie


There used to be a few swiss mountain dogs that pulled IWPA. Ralph was one of them, he used to ride the kids at the pull around on a cart too. Everybody loved Ralph.


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

Carol and Squiggy are great, she also used to pull a tibetan mastif. 

Debbie Lee had a mastiff/st bernard cross she used to pull, Cletus, that dog was huge.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

jbh38 said:


> But NKC is separated on points for pit bulls and other dogs. I believe your pulls are pit bulls only. The titles for the bulldogs and other dogs pulling in NKC can be gotten in a day, they are like the IWPA titles. That is why so many NKC shows have APA pulls, the NKC all breed pulls are not attractive to the bulldogs and others.


Also UKC seperates points for the APBT, AmBulldog & other breeds 
They state a breed has to show consistancy in wping b4 it will seperate it from misc to its own area.

Deb


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

jbh38 said:


> Carol and Squiggy are great, she also used to pull a tibetan mastif.
> 
> Debbie Lee had a mastiff/st bernard cross she used to pull, Cletus, that dog was huge.


Hey jbh38, so you live in VA or NC. I also know Carol and Debbie both of them are great ladies and Jim Carol's hubby is a nice guy.

Hope to see you at the pulls

Deb


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

geisthexe said:


> Also UKC seperates points for the APBT, AmBulldog & other breeds
> They state a breed has to show consistancy in wping b4 it will seperate it from misc to its own area.
> 
> Deb


It's not just that they separate for points, it is a completely different set of rules for pit bulls and other breeds.

all breed rules
http://www.nationalkennelclub.com/Weight%20Pull/Weight-Pulling.htm

Pit Bull rules
http://www.nationalkennelclub.com/Weight%20Pull/Weight-Pulling.htm#Style%20B

Style B is only for pit bull specialties, they won't let you sanction a pull that is not a specialty under the B rules and no other breeds can pull in the specialty.


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

geisthexe said:


> Hey jbh38, so you live in VA or NC. I also know Carol and Debbie both of them are great ladies and Jim Carol's hubby is a nice guy.
> 
> Hope to see you at the pulls
> 
> Deb


You already know us and have seen us at the pulls
Iron Hill Kennels


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

You didn't go to the Premier this weekend?
Jimmy is judging, there were supposed to be 89 dogs there today, but probably a few didn't come.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> But NKC is separated on points for pit bulls and other dogs. I believe your pulls are pit bulls only. The titles for the bulldogs and other dogs pulling in NKC can be gotten in a day, they are like the IWPA titles. That is why so many NKC shows have APA pulls, the NKC all breed pulls are not attractive to the bulldogs and others.


??? We have dogs other than APBT pull at our events all the time. One guy regulalry brings a bull terrier and we have even had several great danes pull?

Just curious but after seeing the two, which titles do you consider harder to get?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> 20. The dog pulling the most weight in its class is declared the winner. Each successive dog pulling a lower weight is placed second, third, etc. If two or more dogs pull the same weight the required distance and can pull no more weight the full distance, the winner is determined by the fastest time in the previous pull.


The above when considered with this below........



> All dogs weighing 35 pounds or less
> 
> All dogs weighing more than 35 pounds up to and including 60 pounds.
> 
> ...


Is a load of crap.

So you have a 35lbs dog that pulls 2000lbs and then you have a 59lbs dog pull 2100lbs and its the winner??????
All this is, is a Most Weight Pulled competition stacked towards big dogs. If a 60lb dog cant pull more basic weight than a 35lb dog, apparently competing in the same class, thats a sorry dog.


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## geisthexe (Jan 18, 2007)

jbh38 said:


> You didn't go to the Premier this weekend?
> Jimmy is judging, there were supposed to be 89 dogs there today, but probably a few didn't come.


HMM.. you will have to come up to me at the next pull... Are you going to the Mason Dixon AmBulldogs Speciality? they are having a APA pull there 3 days. 
I will be there working one of my Presa's in Obedience w/ WABA and pulling the other. Not to mention also showing a friends ABs

Nah I wish I could have went but my truck broke down, so I have put the funds for Premier out for it to get fixed. SUCKS

Deb


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> ??? We have dogs other than APBT pull at our events all the time. One guy regulalry brings a bull terrier and we have even had several great danes pull?
> 
> Just curious but after seeing the two, which titles do you consider harder to get?


Read the NKC weight pull rules, the set of rules that the pit bulls pull under are specialty rules, the other breeds are not allowed to pull under that format and receive the same title.

I know this because we tried to get the rules changed for the bulldogs and other breeds, and we wrote new rules, but people lost interest when they started putting the APA pulls in the NKC shows. There isn't even a provision for rails in the style A weight pull rules.

The other breeds may pull, but do they earn the same titles? The bulldog shows aren't allowed to pull under the Style B, that is only for pit bulls is what we were told.


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

geisthexe said:


> HMM.. you will have to come up to me at the next pull... Are you going to the Mason Dixon AmBulldogs Speciality? they are having a APA pull there 3 days.
> I will be there working one of my Presa's in Obedience w/ WABA and pulling the other. Not to mention also showing a friends ABs
> 
> Nah I wish I could have went but my truck broke down, so I have put the funds for Premier out for it to get fixed. SUCKS
> ...


We will be at the Mason Dixon Show, Mary and Jimmy are the judges for the weight pull and I am doing the paperwork. We are bringing the track, we bought a new one from Darren Sipe. Should be a great pull. Sounds like you are going to be busy.

I think you were in NC at the KOR? I pull Tammy Faye, the patterdale, Jimmy pulled Matrix and Jeremiah and Butter, and I got to do the paperwork there too, I seem to always be doing the paperwork. Jimmy was in VA with them too, I got to stay home that weekend and take care of puppies. Then the last leg was here in DE, we hosted it.


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> The above when considered with this below........
> 
> Is a load of crap.
> 
> ...


That is basically IWPA rules, IWPA doesn't go by percentage, they go by MWP. UKC has a MWP format too, it is the clubs choice which they pull, MWP or MWPP. Actually, I think APA has it too, but nobody ever uses it, they usually go on percentage.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Yeah we let all breeds pull at our shows and win the same titles.

I guess if you like the MWP style its ok, its just not my thing? IMO it does not prove anything?? How does it show anything about the dog?? Body percentage makes it even, if a 35lb dog pulls 50x his body weight and a 85lb dog goes on to pull 51x HIS body weight then the better dog was the 85lbs but it makes it a fair competition. 

How is comparing a 35lber to a 60lber fair if its only the amount of weight pulled?????


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

with MWP a lot of times people try to keep the dogs heavy so they will be at the top of the class. When we started pulling, we pulled IWPA and that's when it was big, many people like the MWP format, especially for big dogs. Also, those rules were put there mainly for American Bulldogs, and you don't find too many 35 lb bulldogs, about the littlest I have seen is in the 50's.

I don't know, I wish NKC would just get one set of rules for everybody. I have a Patterdale and a few Pit Bulls that are NKC registered, but everything around us is bulldogs.


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

Are you coming to ADBA Nationals in NJ this year?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I was just talking to a friend about it and its a definite possibility!


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