# Photos for Structure and Faults



## American_Pit13

Since the thread was deleted I have moved the photos here so you guys don't have to go thru re posting them. Anyone else wanting to participate with *STACKED PHOTOS ONLY *may post them here and they will be moved to the structure thread if chosen to be used for examples.

*This is the thread where they will be discussed*
http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/28792-examples-structure-faults.html

Alright here what I got. I don't have pictures of all sides but they can be judged on what you can see. There are alot of photos but whoever is doing the pickying apart can choose which photos they can best use for fault examples 

Stack
















Slim
























Francis, obviously not a pitbull but good example for a very bad front








Money








Dumae
















Lil Mom








Faith
















Ace
























Obi Wan
















Snoop
















Bumble Bee



























bahamutt99 said:


> One of the traps is that what is OK for an APBT might not work for an AST or AmBully, or vice versa. I know the APBT standard and some of the AmStaff standard, but I wouldn't venture a guess on any AmBullies. And you really need a good, stacked shot on the dog's level to be able to judge. It also helps if there is nothing impeding the view of the dog so you can see things like feet, tails, etc.





SARGEnNIKITA said:


> I dont have any real good pics of Sarge or Nikita stacked because well I cant get them to stack lol but its unimportant since they both have faults... I will give you what I have...
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> Nikita as a pup already wide in front
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> Thats what I have for now... I will try to get more of Nikki tomorrow...
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> Oh and the Shih Tzu is structurally perfect show but mentally now thats another story... lol





aimee235 said:


> SARGEnNIKITA Next time you stack him leave his tail down. It's not supposed to be held high.
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> Twilight is still a puppy in these pics, but you can still see her basic structure.





BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> bouncer at 15 months pitter/staff


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## performanceknls

Thanks Holly, If you want your dog to be looked at and discussed then you can Post them here and I will pick some and put them on the other thread. If you cannot take criticism then do not post your dog. These dogs will be picked apart structurally looking at every fault and good attribute. If you do not think you can handle that then do not put them up here please we do not need any hurt feelings.
Please only stacked photos of dogs and if you have to angles that would be best, thanks for your help!! Lets keep this fun and educational


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## performanceknls

Oh and if you have amstaffs, pitterstaffs and bullies they are welcome too


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## aimee235

I would love my dogs to be picked to pieces. lol. I think outside opinions are vital for avoiding kennel blindness.


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## performanceknls

I agree!!! Every dog in my yard is perfect don't you know! lol


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## Xiahko

I'm excited for this. I'll be participating tomorrow,but right now, I'm letting Bruno sleep.
excited to learn the good and bad about my dog~


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## bahamutt99

I don't necessarily _need_ my dogs evaluated since I pick apart their faults fantastically on my own. "ZOMG, Terra, if only we could give you Loki's feet and head, or give her your bite and drive." LOL! If someone wants to take a swing at it, I wont get my feelings hurt since I already know where their strengths and weaknesses lie. It is always educational to get a second viewpoint, however, since no two people view a thing the same. I was one of the main people evaluating dogs on a thread on another forum a few years back, and it got exhausting! It seems like even folks who have a pet that they never considered showing become very curious about their dogs' faults when the opportunity arises.


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## ThaLadyPit

Onyx as a pup at the vet clinic I used to work at. Approx 12-14 wks here.








Onyx 7 mos old here








Onyx 7 mos again








Onyx 7 mos, still








Onyx 7 mos, this is my favorite shot of her!








Debo, 7 wks old at the breeder's house








Debo, 7 wks front view








Debo on the grooming table, approx 12 wks








Debo 10 mos old








Debo approx 11 mos, practicing for the show








Debo's 1st show, 13 mos old (took Breed 1st, and Terrier 3rd)








Debo moving in the ring (sorry for the quality, or lack thereof, used a video camera, lol)








Debo with his winnings!


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## performanceknls

I agree Lindsay do you mind if I use Tera? I want to show pasterns and toes while not as important in ADBA it is in UKC. Siren is broken down in the pasterns too but that pictures of Tera shows what I wanted to talk about.


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## william williamson

identifying flaws is great.which ones do folks find to be more genetically linked and passed in breeding?
some things show up almost terminally.as with tight breeding,underbites,spindly legs,sway back,high tail,hocked.etc.
these things were not really adressed.
wind,structure,weight,bite,gameness,non HA,high DA.
how many things would someone allow or at which point would someone not breed?


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## American_Pit13

bahamutt99 said:


> I don't necessarily _need_ my dogs evaluated since I pick apart their faults fantastically on my own. "ZOMG, Terra, if only we could give you Loki's feet and head, or give her your bite and drive." LOL! If someone wants to take a swing at it, I wont get my feelings hurt since I already know where their strengths and weaknesses lie. It is always educational to get a second viewpoint, however, since no two people view a thing the same. I was one of the main people evaluating dogs on a thread on another forum a few years back, and it got exhausting! It seems like even folks who have a pet that they never considered showing become very curious about their dogs' faults when the opportunity arises.


I think it is going to be great for newbies not necessarily our selves. Same as you I pick apart my own dogs lol. So I know I would get no hard feeling over what Lisa says as I know my dogs faults, but we have so many new people come on looking to breed or buy and when we say something about faults in thier dogs that are not acceptable ( some time many minor faults) they have no idea what we are talking about. There are some sites that we can refer to for conformation but I think the breaking down of so many dogs will really help educate others on what the structure of these dogs should be.



william williamson said:


> identifying flaws is great.which ones do folks find to be more genetically linked and passed in breeding?
> some things show up almost terminally.as with tight breeding,underbites,spindly legs,sway back,high tail,hocked.etc.
> these things were not really adressed.
> wind,structure,weight,bite,gameness,non HA,high DA.
> how many things would someone allow or at which point would someone not breed?


It would really vary from breeder to breeder of what they wouldn't allow depending on what they are breeding for. Something a UKC show breeder would not allow a working dog breeder may for a high drive dog.

However Gameness is completely be side the point as no one here is breeding fighting or tested dogs to know if they are game.

I also don't think we have anyone that approves of HA, I would at least hope not and well DA would agian depend on the breeder. Where as a UKC breeder may not be so keen to breed something as DA as and ADBA breeder.

However all those are temperament issues and not structure, we have tons of threads on temperament and what the majority of our forum feels is acceptable and whats not.


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## PrairieMoonPits

Melody - Amstaff She's fat at this point due to the registry No worries I make fun of her everyday  she is now on a big diet I pick all my dogs apart just nice to hear what others see


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## bahamutt99

Go for it, Lisa. I can say with all honesty that her imperfect feet and non-straight pasterns have not hindered either her gait or her working ability, so they don't even bother me anymore except in the sense of striving for perfection. I'm beginning to think its only a fault in the UKC because they're so accustomed to the perky, upright fronts you see a lot more in AmStaffs. I also find it interesting that the UKC goes into detail about movement (reach, drive, convergence) while the ADBA doesn't even mention it in the standard (at least not that I saw). Terra has insane side gait, especially when she's moving at some speed (like she alway does, LOL).


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## cEElint

yay!......


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## Black Rabbit

This is my boy Dosia I think he looks great however he has a few faults.


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## meganc66

She's definitely not perfect, and I don't mind the nit picking! Although I am sure that part of the problem is the fact that I am not in any way an experienced "handler" and I dunno how to stack dogs anyways  But, better than nothing!


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## performanceknls

Lindsay I agree dogs can have great movement with weak pasterns and Tera is a nice dog with just a few faults and movement is very key when talking about structure but when looking at still photos the best we can do is address the faults we can see. I ave seen dogs look great in pictures and in person are walking train wrecks! 

I will say weak pasterns does not affect a dog till later in life and it also depends on how how they work if they will break down. Weak pasterns drop as the dog gets older and it does effect performance especially if the dog is worked a lot in a sport like agility or Schutzhund. It will be interesting to see how long Siren last structurally and I think her faults will catch up to her in the end.


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Here are some better pics of Sarge and Nikita... Now Sarge does not stack well and Nikita just does not stack (I have never worked with her)... But use them if you like...

Heres a couple of both from the side...

































I will post a few more from the front as well... photo bucket is not being very friendly this afternoon...


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## SARGEnNIKITA

Here is a couple front views...


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## performanceknls

I would like to see some pictures of dogs who lack angulation in the rear and tail sets for some examples.


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## American_Pit13

performanceknls said:


> I would like to see some pictures of dogs who lack angulation in the rear and tail sets for some examples.


I have Obis butt up there lol. Here are a couple shots of the girls, but I wasn't getting goo angles and they where not turning out well so I don't know if they will work for you. The girls refused to stand properly at all lol.


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## performanceknls

humm but your dogs have decent angulation in the rear and the tail are a little high but not bad.


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## American_Pit13

Some of Mae


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## coppermare

omg I'm in love with that black and white dog....he is SOME KINDA PURTTY.......!!!! LOL


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## MISSAPBT

Grace front shot 6months









Can i get some tips of tucking tails, Gracie does it all the time! Even when shes relaxed and confortable, it looks horrible
This is when she was much younger









and it flicks at the end Hahaha


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## cEElint

performanceknls said:


> I would like to see some pictures of dogs who lack angulation in the rear and tail sets for some examples.


that would be Dre.. gonna try and get some pics up later tonight


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## cEElint

see post #36


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## performanceknls

MISSAPBT said:


> Grace front shot 6months
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Monsoon and Typhoon do it too and it is just how they are. When you stack them rub under the tail, start from the base underneath and go to the tip like your pulling it out but only running your hand underneath. I hope that makes sense, lol. While your doing that softly praise and tell them they are good and and that helps to keep the tail not tucked with most dogs. See if that helps.


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## Saint Francis

I think this thread is great but what difference does it make now to find faults with adult dogs? If we could find these faults in puppyhood, then the education begins. I do realize that this thread can help when looking at the pup's parentage though Let's see more pup pictures showing faults or flaws to be aware of!!


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## performanceknls

Unless it's an obvious fault you can not always tell what a dog will turn out like when they mature. That is a major reason I am against these judges putting up Best in breed or show winners with a young dog under 12 months old, or a dog who finishes his CH at 6 months. As dogs mature they can grow up to be train wrecks or turn out really nice as they mature. It is vital to look at adult dogs especially when you are talking about breeding stock. The main point of the thread is not the dogs themselves but what different faults look like on a dog they will always vary from dog to dog but you can get the idea of what "straight in the stifle" means or "more depth of chest".


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## Saint Francis

I gotcha Lisa, and I know every dog will have one fault or another, no dog is perfect. It's kind of strange that there is a "standard" on a dog that has so many various sizes and structures to begin with!!! Also, when you do consider their heritage of fighting, then all this fault talk would'nt matter if the dog could prove it in the pit I'm sure there are some old dogmen rolling over in their graves


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## performanceknls

I could not agree more! I have some working dogs who have some big faults but it does not make a difference in the working ability. Now some fault do have a big impact it just depends.

moved from other thread
R.I.P. Hooch aka Brindled Coffee
@7









@9









Bozz Hog aka Hoagie
@29 lbs









Konkols Kryptonic "Spike" 
@50lbs of house dog the he was turned over to me.


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## coppermare

I agree, you can't tell what an immature animal could turn into. Especially with bones being soft and not "set" or formed. Nutrition can even affect the forming of bones and structure. As for the performance dogs ect. Very true! Some "faults" contribute to BETTER atheletic ability. For instance a "cow hocked" or a slope to the rear are some faults to "show" conformation but a blessing to atheltic abilities. Just depends on what your breeding for. As for heart, well I'd rather have a dog/horse with heart than all the perfect conformation in the world. He'll find a way to compensate with heart and it's no use having a picture perfect model that doesnt have the will the do a thing.


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## Xiahko

Let me know,if I need better pictures...I couldn't get him to stay still...

I think he might be a tad overweight....



















I have awesome MSP skills.


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## Gimbler

YAY - I think I finally got my pics to post. Don't know why I couldn't before...?
Anyway - this is Maggie and I don't know what "stacked" is, but I had a really hard time getting her to be still without setting down. lol I'd be curious to know how my little rescue/stray measures up to breed standards. Our Ridgeback rescue was near perfect to breed standard with one major (and to me inconsequential) flaw. He only had one whorl at the top of his ridge. That was kinda cool to know.

So far, from reading the other thread I've learned that she's not "easty -westy" but she might be a little long in the back. It's fun to learn what you're looking at when you look at your dog.


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## cEElint

cEElint said:


> Daisy .. 2 yr old Pitterstaff..


Dre, 2yrs

































Dre is sooo hard to take pictures of.. he keeps moving.. i just dug up some old ones i had in my photobucket


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## aus_staffy

Not an APBT but you could use this as an example of weak pasterns. This is from a few years ago and they haven't got any worse. I try not to let him get any fatter than in this photo for fear of putting extra stress on them.


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## performanceknls

His pasterns are tnot hat bad but I guess for an Amstaff they are. Many ADBA dogs have pasterns that are just about like that or worse.


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## ThaLadyPit

I know that Debo was 1/4" undershot, but it's not obvious in his pix. Onyx, I don't know for sure what her faults were as we never made it to the show ring. Can you look at their pix and tell me what you see? I'm still trying to learn about Conformation, and would like to eventually be able to compete again in Conformation, if/when I find the right dog, ya know!? Thanks, in advance. 

P.S. their pix are posted on Pg 1, lol.


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## performanceknls

When I look at working dogs I do not look at faults the same. I could care less about the bite of the dog, look at Typhoon she has a horrible under bite but it does not stop her in Sch or anything else, she is also slightly cow hocked but it does not effect her movement. She almost always places in the ADBA ring and is almost Ch, she is well balanced and has great drive and those are the important things for me. So I guess when you are looking at a working dog perfection in conformation is not that important. If the dog has great drive and great movement then everything else is secondary.

BTW we have some really knowledgeable ppl on the forum when it comes to conformation and I hope they jump in, again I am learning but getting better and better as time goes on. Structure and movement is fascinating to me so I enjoy learning!


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## BullyTheKid

*Great Thread
*


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## aus_staffy

performanceknls said:


> His pasterns are tnot hat bad but I guess for an Amstaff they are. Many ADBA dogs have pasterns that are just about like that or worse.


No they aren't really that bad but I was trying to help out with pastern pics . And I know he looks like an Amstaff but he's actually an SBT.


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## MY MIKADO

Had my son help me and he doesn't know anything about stacking so the pictures are not great. Vendetta has her faults. She has a slight roach back, I think her tail is set a little high and I just realized she has easty/westy feet. I never noticed that before. I think she has a good shape boxy looking, she chest seems to be deep enough and I love her head


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## performanceknls

Sharon I will put her in the thread later, roach back is not a bad thing it is worse to be flat like a table top and has some arch in the back, many ADBA dogs are roached you also see that with dogs who have lower tail sets, more hip on the dog roaches the back.
But her chest is shallow it does not come all they down to the elbows, it needs to be at least about 2" deeper, he chest is very similar to my dog Tempest, almost there but not quiet.


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## fishinrob

Just wondering how Maggie looks. She has a lot of Amstaff on the bottom.(White Rock) and is Bully on top. She's only 7 months but was thinking about showing her in UKC.




























We have her in agility now but I was curious how she looked conformation wise. We are about to get her fixed but are hedging because my wife is interested in some type of competition.


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## mattytang

heres my boy evil turning 2 yrs aug 28 what do you think?


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## aus_staffy

Man, he's a great looking dog.


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## mattytang

aus_staffy said:


> Man, he's a great looking dog.


thank you he is handsome


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## coppermare

I agree Aus, who could "fault" him? LOL..he is awesome.


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## mattytang

coppermare said:


> I agree Aus, who could "fault" him? LOL..he is awesome.


thanks but hes gotta have faults would like to know


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## aus_staffy

Hopefully the better conformation eyes will have a look soon but I'm struggling to see anything obvious.


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## performanceknls

mattytang said:


> heres my boy evil turning 2 yrs aug 28 what do you think?


Sorry those pictures are not good enough to see proper structure can you stack him better? Look at the other pictures and that will give you an idea of how to stack him.

From what I see his muscles are bunchy not long, that is really important for APBT's to have long muscles in the rear not the big bulging muscles. I guess it is like a body builder and a runner, one is made for endurance and one is made for brute strength. A runner will last longer than a body builder when working and why long muscles are very important. His chest also looks shallow but I can't tell for sure in the pictures.

He is a pretty dog we are just talking conformation.


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## performanceknls

fishinrob said:


> Just wondering how Maggie looks. She has a lot of Amstaff on the bottom.(White Rock) and is Bully on top. She's only 7 months but was thinking about showing her in UKC.
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> We have her in agility now but I was curious how she looked conformation wise. We are about to get her fixed but are hedging because my wife is interested in some type of competition.


YAY for agility pits!!

ok the obvious faults I see is a shallow chest, really high tail set, and very long in the back. She is pretty so I would show in UKC anyway it depends on what other dogs your competing against and what the judge likes.

when you stack her in the show ring, under stack her rear so it makes her look shorter backed. In the picture from the side you have her over stacked and it makes her look even longer than she really is. The back of the hocks should be straight up and down if you look at hers they are slanted way back.


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## angelbaby

heres my girl at 6 month s , what faults can be seen in her already? I know it can change as she grows but is ther things you can pick up on when looking at pups? she is a bully.


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## Black Rabbit

OOoooooo I wanna play too Lisa what can you tell about Dosia besides the under bite lmao. He does do the best pouty face ever with that lip though 



















Booty shot lol


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## mattytang

performanceknls said:


> Sorry those pictures are not good enough to see proper structure can you stack him better? Look at the other pictures and that will give you an idea of how to stack him.
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i was gonna but i think someone stole my camera. ill take new ones if i find it sorry


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## NesOne

I'll have to take some better pics, but here's what I got for now, and are approx. from 1 year ago:


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## SARGEnNIKITA

OOOOOOO Nesone hes purty!!!


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## Black Rabbit

SARGEnNIKITA said:


> OOOOOOO Nesone hes purty!!!


:goodpost:
I know right I love Smokey! Nes I demand some updated Smokey pics like NOW! lol


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## SARGEnNIKITA

kg420 said:


> :goodpost:
> I know right I love Smokey! Nes I demand some updated Smokey pics like NOW! lol


I am gonna have to second that...


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## performanceknls

NesOne said:


> I'll have to take some better pics, but here's what I got for now, and are approx. from 1 year ago:


I am looking at the APBT standard so he looks a little big and his head is almost too big but with his body it balances out.
Nice tail set and rear but very straight in the shoulders in some pictures his chest look great and some it looks shallow so that is hard to tell. Nice underline and brisket and E/W in the front slightly.

The other pictures that were posted by KG420 and angel baby are not stacked right so it makes the dog look off and I cannot tell structure. If you can get better pictures that will help and I do not know the standard for bullies maybe another bully member would like to take that on who know more than I do.


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## william williamson

now thats what the large older pit that I'm used to looks like as far as weight and size go.tall rangy and great front end.
thats A one dog pig huntin machine.
thats absolutely what APBT old timers think of when they hear of dogs that range over 70#.
I would own that dog.and I am not the big dog type.
that dog reminds me of A friends Colby,'cept it was white an tannish brown,almost A red hue.
his name was King,and he surely was.


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## SapphirePB

My first attempt at stacking. What do you think?

"You're gonna do what?" lol


















some random shots


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## william williamson

SapphirePB said:


> My first attempt at stacking. What do you think?
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do you have this dogs pedigree?does it have some Loposay in it?
thats a nice lookin dog.


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## jennjenn5282

YAY!!! I'm glad someone is doing this. I have always wanted to ask somebody to tell me objectively how Karma's conformation is. I have a project now..I will work on some pics this afternoon!!!


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## performanceknls

SapphirePB said:


> My first attempt at stacking. What do you think?


This is a great picture!! I am going to use this as an example of how deep a chest should be, if you see it comes down below the elbows and is nice and deep with a good underline and brisket. Very nice! Tail looks good, head is nice, nice rear angles and shoulders, the only thing I really see is the dog is not very conditioned and the muscles are too bunchy and not long. But over all nice little pitty for being a stocker dog. 
Oh I almost forgot! the dog lacks length of upper arm, the upper arm is very short, does this dog have amstaff in it? It is very common with amstaffs for the upper arm to be short.


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## SapphirePB

performanceknls said:


> This is a great picture!! I am going to use this as an example of how deep a chest should be, if you see it comes down below the elbows and is nice and deep with a good underline and brisket. Very nice! Tail looks good, head is nice, nice rear angles and shoulders, the only thing I really see is the dog is not very conditioned and the muscles are too bunchy and not long. But over all nice little pitty for being a stocker dog.
> Oh I almost forgot! the dog lacks length of upper arm, the upper arm is very short, does this dog have amstaff in it? It is very common with amstaffs for the upper arm to be short.


I wish I knew her pedigree. She just happend into my life (stray no collar or chip) a month ago. I've grown up with dogs since I can remember but not with this breed. I am enjoying learning them through this forum - I have a ton of Qs and once Sapph and I are more acquainted will place on a new thread unless it's regarding conformation. She is very pretty and smart. My only gripe is DA but she is in heat. It's been 14 days and hopefully she has 7 more to go. I plan on getting her fixed.


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## Loke-a-doke

Here's some of Big Lo! He's only 5-6 months old right now, about 35 lbs.

Idk how his stacked picture turned out he was veryy distracted lol but I thought he got a few other good ones plus some action shots...what do you guys think of him so far??
(I know I have a ton haha sorry I didn't know what ones would be best to judge so I just posted them all :roll: lol)


















































































He always looks like a big pretty boy to me


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## william williamson

Loke-a-doke said:


> He always looks like a big pretty boy to me


then he's the the best in show.
this makes him your fairytale prince,and I think thats awesome!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Loke-a-doke

william williamson said:


> then he's the the best in show.
> this makes him your fairytale prince,and I think thats awesome!!!!!!!!!!!


He most definitely is my fairytale prince!!

:love2:He's strong and smart, stubborn just like me, and he acts like a big tough guy but he's just a sweetheart to the bone. He lovesss to give kisses, but he stops just before you get too grossed out lol. Not to mention he's absolutely the mostt handsome boy out there!

Let's face it, I'm head over heels in love!


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## coppermare

Where did the name Loke-doke come from? That may even be an interesting thread as to our names and our dogs names.............


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## Loke-a-doke

Well I named him Loki because at first I thought that's who Matt Damon was in the movie Dogma  Haha turns out that was Ben Affleck but oh well...plus Loki is the Norse god of mischief so it works out lol...

andd Loke-a-doke was his very first nickname just the first thing that popped out when I used my puppy voice for him lol...thought it would make a cute username when I got on here


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## Loke-a-doke

That would be a cool new thread though I love hearing how dogs got their names!


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## Tigger Jackson

Any faults on Tigger I would like to know good or bad...


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## performanceknls

Is he a registered dog or just a pet? very cute puppy!
His head is rather smaller and bitchy for a male and his muzzle is snipy meaning it comes to a point and is not square. also his tail is really long and not to the breed standard. The standard says he tail should come down to the hocks. Everything is is hard to say he is such a young pup.



Tigger Jackson said:


> Any faults on Tigger I would like to know good or bad...


The big thing is it looks like your dog lacks under jaw but I can't tell from the angle, also the muzzle is too short. The angle of the picture is taken from above so it is hard to see angles but the upper arm look short and I cannot see the rear angulation, one leg is too far under and one is too stretched out. Does you dog have some amstaff in him? I love the ears and color BTW 

Again I am not the expert and can mention the parts of the body that I am familiar with. I may be missing some things or be a little off, I can look at a picture and name a few faults and my mentors I am working with can then sit there and tell me everything I missed! lol Some judges also look at certain faults harder than others, I am not huge stickler on tail sets but look harder at a dogs chest and I know judges that will not look at high tail set dogs at all, that goes UKC and ADBA. Conformation shows will always be the opinion of the judge and their interpretation of the breed standard.

Oh and I can only talk about APBT's and some pitterstaffs I am not familiar with the bully or AST standards. If someone with bully or AST knowledge wants to help that would be great.


----------



## American_Pit13

Are you still moving pictures over or just doing it all here in one thread?


----------



## performanceknls

I am still moving pictures but I did not want to ignore ppl because they really want to know what faults the dogs have. when I have time I am using good pictures to show common faults.


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## jayandlacy

Here are my boys first is Ice 6yrs old- he is apbt

























Here is Kaos 13mths old-he is half bully, half apbt


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## coppermare

Wouldn't a bully standard fall very close to the Amstaff?


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## aus_staffy

coppermare said:


> Wouldn't a bully standard fall very close to the Amstaff?


As far as I understand it, there are different standards for bullies for the different sizes (pocket,XXL etc.). Someone will be able to explain further, I'm sure.


----------



## American_Pit13

coppermare said:


> Wouldn't a bully standard fall very close to the Amstaff?


I don't know of their exact standard but I would personally consider the same as and APBT or Amstaff with the obvious size difference. Over all they are the same built dogs in a way and really the differences would lie in height and weight. Of course the bully may have more chest or head but other than that I would say the same basic faults of the other 2 breeds would apply.


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## performanceknls

jayandlacy said:


> Here are my boys first is Ice 6yrs old- he is apbt


humm I think this is when opinion comes into play because I do not see good breed type. I do not like the head or neck or overall look of the dog structurally, he does not come together well.
Rear has good angulation, tail set looks ok not too bad, chest looks good,
and the dog could be better conditioned. No really obvious faults but the breed type IMO is not there and he looks a little big and that would be fine if he was a balanced dog but he's not.

Here is Kaos 13mths old-he is half bully, half apbt 

I am not familiar enough with the bully standard, that dog looks very bully so I don't want to say something that is not true for a bully.


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## PittyLover314

what beautiful pictures!


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## jayandlacy

yeah Ice was my $50 dog from the ghetto of flint. We love him regardless. Kaos, well, he weighs the same as Ice but about 2 inches shorter. They run and go for walks, and have no idea what work is. Thanks, we know poor Ice got the short end of the stick, with his mini wedge head.LOL, he got pretty big for being the last of the litter and the runt.


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## bahamutt99

Loke-a-doke said:


> Well I named him Loki because at first I thought that's who Matt Damon was in the movie Dogma  Haha turns out that was Ben Affleck but oh well...plus Loki is the Norse god of mischief so it works out lol...


Matt Damon _was_ Loki. Ben Afflect was Bartleby. I know because I named my Loki for the same reasons. Angel of death + Norse god of mischief. And she ended up being the easiest, most mellow dog I've ever had. Go figure.


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## Black Rabbit

bahamutt99 said:


> Matt Damon _was_ Loki. Ben Afflect was Bartleby. I know because I named my Loki for the same reasons. Angel of death + Norse god of mischief. And she ended up being the easiest, most mellow dog I've ever had. Go figure.


 I love that movie. He was Bartleby, that'd be a good name for a dog too


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## Black Rabbit

Ok Lisa here's a few of Dosia as stacked as I could get him. He tends to move but are they good enough pics?



















He moved on this one









Can't seem to get one of him looking forward but here is one of him looking up


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## bahamutt99

Y'all wanna act like you don't believe me, LOL! Matt Damon played Loki. Ben Affleck played Bartleby. I know these things because I'm full of useless trivia.

Dogma (1999)


> "Matt Damon... Loki
> Ben Affleck... Bartleby"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma_(film)


> "Two fallen angels - Bartleby (Ben Affleck), a watcher, and Loki (Matt Damon), the former Angel of Death - were banished from Heaven..."


Anyway, sorry for the sidetrack folks. :hammer:


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## Black Rabbit

bahamutt99 said:


> Y'all wanna act like you don't believe me, LOL! Matt Damon played Loki. Ben Affleck played Bartleby. I know these things because I'm full of useless trivia.
> 
> Dogma (1999)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma_(film)
> 
> Anyway, sorry for the sidetrack folks. :hammer:


Oh I was agreeing with you sorry I worded that wrong. I was meaning Ben Affleck. But it would be a cool name for a dog.


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## bahamutt99

Oh, okay. LOL! My bad.


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## Black Rabbit

I love all those movies  Kevin Smith is a genius


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## bahamutt99

Dude he is. I could turn chubby-chaser for him.


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## performanceknls

kg420 said:


> Ok Lisa here's a few of Dosia as stacked as I could get him. He tends to move but are they good enough pics?


I love me some Dosia! lol

the only big things I see is he is shallow in the chest and his shoulders look a little straight but he is looking really good all conditioned!


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## Black Rabbit

Awww thank you Lisa  I was sure he'd have a few more than that  Good to know. I wanna take him to some shows so hopefully he does good


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## PatienceFlame

Spazz and Riley wanna play. OMNOMNOM them up! i tried by myself and failed

Spazz Front
















Rear Spazz (she was happy sorry her tail went POOF)









side views

















and Riley

Riley Front (She has slight easty westy, and her tail is too long i know that but I must here MORE of her faults. lol)









and sides

























and her in motion since i cant find any rear


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## SapphirePB

After looking at photos, I'm starting to get a feeling Sapphire is more AST than APBT. There are so many good looking dogs on this site.


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## performanceknls

Spazz is cute and young so she is still growing and she could mature more.
She is shallow in the chest but nice front and rear. That rear shot is a good example of how the rear should look from behind. If you look at her back legs and the shape they make a wish bone shape and that is what you want to see. Nice angulation in the rear and her shoulders look a little straight.

Riley
Her chest looks deep enough in one picture but not the others so hard to say, her underline is not great. Her brisket needs to be longer, if you look at her chest it goes straight up to her loin, almost what is called a herring chest. Oh man I hope I am describing that correct I will have to ask Cheryl.
Rear angulation is ok and I see what you are talking about in the front but I would not say E/W I would say just toeing out a bit. Her shoulders also look really straight but seeing the dog in person and watching it move really helps determine how bad or good they are.

Riley looks great she really is ripped!


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## Black Rabbit

RileyRoo said:


> Spazz and Riley wanna play. OMNOMNOM them up! i tried by myself and failed
> 
> Spazz Front
> 
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> Rear Spazz (she was happy sorry her tail went POOF)
> 
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> side views
> 
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> and Riley
> 
> Riley Front (She has slight easty westy, and her tail is too long i know that but I must here MORE of her faults. lol)
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> and sides
> 
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> and her in motion since i cant find any rear


Is that an Ibanez I see in the back round?


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## PatienceFlame

Lisa, here are some more clear photos to nit pick at :roll: maybe these ones will help you out more since they are better quality. Also, with all these faults will this majorly effect her wins in the ADBA ring or is it more of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing with more so the judges and what they look for in the winning dog??









Free standing 









Free standing (I told her to stay and she wasnt happy she wanted to sit down)









and some Of Riley when she was at 42lbs


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## Rudy4747

RileyRoo said:


> Lisa, here are some more clear photos to nit pick at :roll: maybe these ones will help you out more since they are better quality. Also, with all these faults will this majorly effect her wins in the ADBA ring or is it more of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing with more so the judges and what they look for in the winning dog??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Free standing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Free standing (I told her to stay and she wasnt happy she wanted to sit down)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some Of Riley when she was at 42lbs


i think both of your dogs are amazingly gorgeous. I am very, very new to conformation but I think they are both pretty dang sound looking to me. And Riley is in great condition.


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## performanceknls

Yes what I posted about her chest looks right in those pictures. Her chest is shallow and she has what they call herring gut. I think that is the right term but I will check with Cheryl and see if she will look at her.
For ADBA her chest will take a lot from her but it depends on the competition in the ring. Also if a judge really likes her for other reasons they can over look those things. Conformation in general is nothing more of that persons interpretation of the breed standard and many judges will have different picks. All dogs have faults so the best thing is to go out and show and see how they do.


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## PatienceFlame

performanceknls said:


> Yes what I posted about her chest looks right in those pictures. Her chest is shallow and she has what they call herring gut. I think that is the right term but I will check with Cheryl and see if she will look at her.
> For ADBA her chest will take a lot from her but it depends on the competition in the ring. Also if a judge really likes her for other reasons they can over look those things. Conformation in general is nothing more of that persons interpretation of the breed standard and many judges will have different picks. All dogs have faults so the *best thing is to go out and show and see how they do.*


I was planning on going to a funshow first to get an idea and practice and see how things go and get me comfortable with the ring myself before playing with the big dogs. I'd hate to go out to a real deal ADBA competition and look clueless and feel embarassed because of that. lol!

anyways, thank you for pointing out her faults, that is helpful. I googled Herring gut and not much came up so if your friend has info on that I'd LOVE to learn more about it.


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## performanceknls

Check out this thread where we are talking about the same thing.
Underline in the APBT - General Messages - Gaff General Messages - Gaff Message Board - Message Board

Now these are UKC dogs but the idea of what we are talking about is the same


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## JayHawk

RileyRoo said:


> I was planning on going to a funshow first to get an idea and practice and see how things go and get me comfortable with the ring myself before playing with the big dogs. I'd hate to go out to a real deal ADBA competition and look clueless and feel embarassed because of that. lol!
> 
> anyways, thank you for pointing out her faults, that is helpful. I googled Herring gut and not much came up so if your friend has info on that I'd LOVE to learn more about it.


I'm not an ADBA judge nor am I aware of any judges on this forum. I would suggest going to a show or two, you will find that the majority of the people are very friendly and helpfull and most Judges are willing to look at your dog after the show and give you their impression of your dogs strong and weak points, of course a different judge may give a completly different impression. but at the very least you will meet some good people see other fine dogs and maybe win a ribbion or two


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## performanceknls

anymore pictures


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## LadyRampage

A couple to look over!!


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## performanceknls

LadyRampage said:


> A couple to look over!!


Now these are bulldogs!! lol

The first one the only thing I can really see is the pasterns are typical gamebred dog feet, a little weak in the pasterns and toes but again typical in gamebred dogs.

The second is GORGEOUS!! His chest look a bit shallow but if he was inhaling that could be the problem. Again nice dog! what is his ped?


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## outlaw josey

*Looks like Josey is still a little high in the rear and sway backed.*

I found this thread last night when doing a search on high in the rear. I had posted some pics of Josey when we first got her and someone had made that comment and said it might change as she got older. She will be 2 at the end of this year. She was a rescue so really don't know what mix she may be. It is so hard to take a picture showing how they look. The first two were taken this morning trying to get her standing and straight at her from the side and the other two were just casual shots a few months ago. No matter what she is we love her, but if she is mainly a Pit type dog I am concerned that if she has major faults it could cause health issues in the future. I love coming on here to learn and enjoy all the pictures - please have a go at it and give me an analysis.


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## apbtmom76

some really good lookin dogs here, I will have to dig up pics of mine and post them, see what you all think  Very educational, thank you all for the input, pics and otherwise.


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## Indie

*Indie, 13 weeks*

take a shot at dear Indie:









She was being difficult on the front stack:


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## performanceknls

outlaw josey said:


> I found this thread last night when doing a search on high in the rear. I had posted some pics of Josey when we first got her and someone had made that comment and said it might change as she got older. She will be 2 at the end of this year. She was a rescue so really don't know what mix she may be. It is so hard to take a picture showing how they look. The first two were taken this morning trying to get her standing and straight at her from the side and the other two were just casual shots a few months ago. No matter what she is we love her, but if she is mainly a Pit type dog I am concerned that if she has major faults it could cause health issues in the future. I love coming on here to learn and enjoy all the pictures - please have a go at it and give me an analysis.


She is a tad high in the rear but not that bad and she is not what I would call as sway backed. nothing else major she is cute!



Indie said:


> take a shot at dear Indie:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was being difficult on the front stack:


Nice bone on the pup how is she bred? She looks more pitterstaff but I could be totally mistaken the pictures are hard to tell.

Good depth in chest, good angles on the rear, the shoulders are hard to see in the pictures you posted. The only thing I do not like and why I was thinking your pup is a pitterstaff is the top line of the dog is very flat and the tail set is really high. You see that with pitterstaffs and AST's. Are you planning on showing ADBA or UKC? UKC it will not matter as much since they are saturated with pitterstaffs and AST's but the ADBA you might have a harder time if that top line stays that flat or table top looking.

Puppies change all the time and it could be the way you stacked her, either way a nice looking pup.


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## apbtmom76

alright so I thought I would play for now, with pics of Penny & Orion.

I know that Penny has an underbite and her rear end is too high, but what else faults or otherwise do you see.? These two are nautral, no stacking involved.
















Front view - 








back view - 








side view - 









Can you tell they are not used to being stacked, brats 
Here is Orion, mind you he is 1/4 Lab and has two bad knees, so yes his back end is a little messed up. And he has a slight underbite. So lay it on me. 
These are natural stack - 
























front view - 








side view - 








another side view - 








rear view - 









ok let me hear it about my gimpy dogs, lmaoo, I love them though, no matter what, see if I can find ones of Phoenix and Phoebe, lol.


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## Indie

> Nice bone on the pup how is she bred? She looks more pitterstaff but I could be totally mistaken the pictures are hard to tell.
> 
> Good depth in chest, good angles on the rear, the shoulders are hard to see in the pictures you posted. The only thing I do not like and why I was thinking your pup is a pitterstaff is the top line of the dog is very flat and the tail set is really high. You see that with pitterstaffs and AST's. Are you planning on showing ADBA or UKC? UKC it will not matter as much since they are saturated with pitterstaffs and AST's but the ADBA you might have a harder time if that top line stays that flat or table top looking.
> 
> Puppies change all the time and it could be the way you stacked her, either way a nice looking pup.


Thanks for the critique! She's Gaff lines, so yeah, you could call her APBT/AST, if ya wanted. I won't deny it! We'll be showing UKC.. and the biggest concern i've had is her topline.. compared to her siblings.. it looks roached to me. Then again, they've got the table tops you speak of.. where I read in the standard that a slight rise over the loins is good. It helps having someone else take a look-see besides the breeder and owners of the other pups. Here are some stacked pics I took today, though they didn't come out the best. :/

14wks, 1 day


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## aus_staffy

Indie said:


>


Slightly OT but it really is a shame about that crop. The right side looks really good. Too bad they couldn't even it up.


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## Rudy4747

Indie said:


> Thanks for the critique! She's Gaff lines, so yeah, you could call her APBT/AST, if ya wanted. I won't deny it! We'll be showing UKC.. and the biggest concern i've had is her topline.. compared to her siblings.. it looks roached to me. Then again, they've got the table tops you speak of.. where I read in the standard that a slight rise over the loins is good. It helps having someone else take a look-see besides the breeder and owners of the other pups. Here are some stacked pics I took today, though they didn't come out the best. :/
> 
> 14wks, 1 day


I think she will do good in the UKc and her top line looks okay. She is still young. I think it has the right amount of arch. Tail set is a little high. But My OPinion is she is good looking.


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## apbtmom76

ok so I thought I'd share my Phoenix and my friend Mike's dog Krusher from Roses and Thorns Kennel. Phoenix was not to cooperative so bear with me, lol

in the yard, natural - 








side view - 








he is off here but rear view - 

















ok now here is Krusher, he will be a year old this month.
side view - 
















front view - 
















rear view - 









alright there ya go. Thanks for lookin


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## LadyRampage

performanceknls said:


> Now these are bulldogs!! lol
> 
> The first one the only thing I can really see is the pasterns are typical gamebred dog feet, a little weak in the pasterns and toes but again typical in gamebred dogs.
> 
> The second is GORGEOUS!! His chest look a bit shallow but if he was inhaling that could be the problem. Again nice dog! what is his ped?


Thank you! The first one is GR CH Jewels, off of GRCH Zorro X CH Ebony, the 2nd male is Jimbo, he is off CH Maggie (Zorro's littermate sister) to my old Bo dog... Jimbo is working toward his title now, I'm really hoping he does well this weekend at Nationals. My pups that I posted (the 4 month olds) are off Jimbo back to Maggie..lol


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## apbtmom76

OOO LR, ya know I love your dogs, they are all gorgeous


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## meno222

this are not the greatest pics,but here is my 8 month old pup.
























































would really appreciate your input.


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## duckyp0o77

*& they wonder why i dont pay my cable bill.. took me 4 times to post this ugh lol*

ok just for fun critique away. i think she's one sexy dog though =) these i think are all the pics i have for right now. i'll try to get better ones in the next few days.


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## noodlesgranny

american_pit13 said:


> I think it is going to be great for newbies not necessarily ourselves.


 Yes it will be great for newbies!!!! I want to learn as much as possible. I am around Holly's dogs all the time and I have to admit that when she talks about somethings about the dogs I don't understand what she's talking about. She has to "dumb it down" for me. I think she sees the blank look. Seriously I want to learn as much as possible because I want a pit of my own and want to know what to look for. (Holly won't always be there with me to let me know what to look for.)


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## Patch-O-Pits

Remember when posting picts you want to have someone eval. Try to do it on a flat even surface, at the level of the dog not standing and looking down at them or from a weird angle. Try to stack them. If you have trouble stacking having someone help you by taking the picture while you hold them in place on a stay is always a good idea. I hope that helps


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## Indie

*HOW TO TAKE PICS TO JUDGE SOUNDNESS:*

this site might help some of ya out! 
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


----------



## performanceknls

Indie said:


> this site might help some of ya out!
> Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


ok this is a little off topic but I find that link funny since Diane has been producing some less than sound dogs with the bloodlines she is breeding..... just a little funny


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## Rudy4747

performanceknls said:


> ok this is a little off topic but I find that link funny since Diane has been producing some less than sound dogs with the bloodlines she is breeding..... just a little funny


i happen to realy like the Sorrells dog besides them being a little rangy most are pretty sound. They also make great working dogs.


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## Patch-O-Pits

American Pit Bull Terrier Network Pit Bull Encyclopedia A to Z about the APBT


----------



## performanceknls

Rudy4747 said:


> i happen to realy like the Sorrells dog besides them being a little rangy most are pretty sound. They also make great working dogs.


I have never been a fan of sorrells dogs but the stock she has been breeding is not the best, it has nothing to do with the bloodline and everything to do with picking dogs with poor structure to breed. Have you seen in person some of the dogs she has produced lately? I have seen a few in person and have heard of the dogs she has now that were at a show not to long a ago and they were anything but sound. Anyway I don't want to get too far off topic this could be a whole new thread by it's self. Of course this is just an opinion based off what I have seen, every one might see them differently.


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## wild_deuce03

................


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## HappyPuppy

Whoa, Wild_Deuce - they are both pretty chunky! Makes it hard to see much...


----------



## wild_deuce03

HappyPuppy said:


> Whoa, Wild_Deuce - they are both pretty chunky! Makes it hard to see much...


I wasn't posting for Smudge. He just happened to be in the pic. Yeah, I know he's over weight. We're working on that. As far as Athena, you think she's chunky??? Really?????? She's only 4 1/2 months old.


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## HappyPuppy

W_D - I didn't mean to be quite so direct... I do think she could be a few lbs lighter, yes, but given her age, I guess that should not be a big deal at this point. Will be nice to see how she turns out in a few months.


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## wild_deuce03

HappyPuppy said:


> W_D - I didn't mean to be quite so direct... I do think she could be a few lbs lighter, yes, but given her age, I guess that should not be a big deal at this point. Will be nice to see how she turns out in a few months.


No worries, really. Thanks.


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## BTPB

Zeus at 6 months old!


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## aimee235

All right. I wanted to see if we could get this going again. Cause it's super fun.lol.
So I will start my excuses. lol. She had just eaten and she's standing on a tree so well she's not standing perfect. lol.


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## American_Pit13

Lisa is pretty busy with the new baby so I think it will be a few months before this gets going again.


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## aimee235

That's OK! I know baby's are a hand full.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

well heres some photos of Jack
now I know they are not stacked but this is the best I could get for now
but at least you can rip him apart 

















































well anything you can see from these pic would be good to hear


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

bumpity bump ............


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## aimee235

I'll try. Don't kill me. lol. I've never done this before.

The bad.He looks like he may have a little E/W and he has a bit off loose neck skin.

The good. He has good length of neck and good shoulder lay back. 

Don't quote me on anything though. I could be wrong.


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

ya I agree about the loose skin aroung his neck.
as far as the e/w thing I'm not sure bc sometimes his feet seem to be pretty straight and others definetly look e/w.

But hey thanks for the opinion. anything else you think about him feel free to tell me no hurt feeling will be had


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## truepits92

Hows he bred? He looks alot like my male tonka (allagatotor hammonds mayfeild). The only thing I would say is he may be a bit long backed for a male and have a slightly long tail but he looks ?like hes under a year old? so he still could grow ?or no?


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Thanks for your comments my guyJack doent have a ped he from a byb here that didnt keep track of what peds they were breed from. His brother and him have just been breeding them for a long time good thing was I didnt have to pay for him bad thing was I am now paying vet bills though for red mange. I figure I could give the puppy a better life. Hes still young around 8-9 I would say after getting him I havent realy kept track of the months so hes still growing.


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## B-TownBullyz

here is my bully pup

























Luciano


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## davidfitness83

He def lacks rear angulation he has the same rear as my dog.


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## truepits92

Iv gotta get some good recent photos of my guys that will be my next adventure


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## Patch-O-Pits

aimee235 said:


>


She is a cutie, standing on the tree isn't helping to give the best picture, but going off this... She could use more shoulder layback, a tad more rear angulation, and her topline is off(which may be due to her trying to balance) This is what a topline should look like with explanation so you understand better.
American Pit Bull Terrier Network Topline Study

I hope that helps. Post some picts of her on a level surface when you get a chance.


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## Patch-O-Pits

Just a reminder there is no perfect dog everyone including my own have things that are less than perfect about them.



Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


>


Jack is adorable! beautiful markings. I love the flash! Is he young? if so some of this may change slightly.
Though he isn't stacked properly and you can't really see everything the right way... I can tell he is easty westy lacks some front depth in chest which also suggests his shoulder set is not correct. He appears to also lack rear angulation making him high in the rear throwing off the topline. Better stacked pictures though would be more helpful.


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## Patch-O-Pits

I do not know the AmBully standard and realize it accepts different things than the APBT one does, so bare with me.


B-TownBullyz said:


> here is my bully pup


Cute pup! This is what I see as structural faults going off the APBT standard though I realize some may be acceptable as per the AmBully one...
-cow hocked
-too wide in the chest
-easty westy
-A bit out in the elbows
her tail appears thick at least in the picture

Can't judge other aspects as she isn't stacked properly in any of the picts...



B-TownBullyz said:


> Luciano


he is a handsome bully boy. 
-Lacking rear angulation and turn in stifle
_ needs more shoulder layback
- Looks too short in the muzzle, but they may just be the angel if the picture
- high in the rear throwing off topline


----------



## wild_deuce03

Athena at just under 8 months. Don't care if you are a pro or not. Feel free to give your opinions (negative ones will be ignored! LOL!). I know you can't see her feet, but this is one of the only pics I have where she is close to being stacked. I know her feet go a little easty/westy at times. Other than that I am clueless. I _think_ maybe she has weak pasterns???  Don't know if you can tell in the pic or not.










Little better side shot.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

wild_deuce03 said:


> I know you can't see her feet, but this is one of the only pics I have where she is close to being stacked. I know her feet go a little easty/westy at times. Other than that I am clueless. I _think_ maybe she has weak pasterns???  Don't know if you can tell in the pic or not.[/SIZE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Little better side shot.


Very pretty, I'm very partial to natural eared dogs with a nice ear set. 
Well since you can't see her feet I can't tell you about her pasterns or the easty westy part LOL. Easty westy is usually caused by shoulders not properly set, but since you don't have a full side shot I can't tell for sure. At 8 months it isn't the best time to eval as she is going through growth spurts still... As of right now her chest hasn't fully dropped and it may not, time will tell.
She is also a little lippy.
Can't see her rear properly or topline due to the angle of the picts. 
She is a pretty girl.


----------



## wild_deuce03

Patch-O-Pits said:


> Very pretty, I'm very partial to natural eared dogs with a nice ear set.
> Well since you can't see her feet I can't tell you about her pasterns or the easty westy part LOL. Easty westy is usually caused by shoulders not properly set, but since you don't have a full side shot I can't tell for sure. At 8 months it isn't the best time to eval as she is going through growth spurts still... As of right now her chest hasn't fully dropped and it may not, time will tell.
> She is also a little lippy.
> Can't see her rear properly or topline due to the angle of the picts.
> She is a pretty girl.


Yeah, I kind of figured on that. But I'll take the first and last comment! LOL!


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

LOL no dog is perfect as per the standard, but all are perfect for those of us who love them...


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

Those who are asking for critiques, if the dog isn't stacked properly and the pictures aren't taken at their level the structure will appear distorted and no one can give a true accurate eval. You should post at least one side stacked, front stacked, and full head shot. If you aren't sure how to stack here is a link for help:
Encyclopedia of the American Pit Bull Terrier : Dog Show Training


----------



## william williamson

she's not dieted,just well taken care of.
just thought I'd put up he pics for folks to see.


----------



## GinandJuicepits.com

Id love to know what yall think 



























i know these arent the most desirable angles but these are the closest ones i have to what yall r looking for right now so what does everyone think these are pics from Kaya at 9-12 months old


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

william williamson,

I don't feel a dog should have some special diet or be conditioned really they should naturally be what they are with proper nutrition and exercise so I think her condition body looks very nice.
Just some quick things I see, are she lacks rear angulation, her top line is off and she is lacking some depth in chest. From the picture she also looks a little cow hocked, but it may just be the angle and way she is standing.


Unless you put up stacked picts really judging structure properly is not possible. The dogs posted that aren't stacked certainly are cute though...


----------



## william williamson

thank you,and yes, she is slightly hocked,in the sense that her left foot doesn't fall straight every time.at times it isn't obvious.it's like me,I was born and had severe pigeoning,to the point we had casted legs for 3 years and braces for 3 years.sometimes when I'm standing,my feet naturally fall in,most times it's not noticable at all.
I didn't pose or stack her for the snap,she was actually playinf with my ACD which is like the run and jump champ. we were at a VA. roadside rest area and they got into a jump from table to table competition.
her chest is lacking,I wish she had her mommas.the rear angulation,is A phote flaw.I just had my camera, and when she hesitated her jump I grabbed it.
she wouldn't fair the ring,she has pulled my little isuzu truck though,hehehe 
thanks,
oh,I just mentioned the diet for 2 reasons as some folks see her,and wonder what I do to keep her between fat and thin,I'm like duh,what every responsible owner does.
I just tried to keep folks at bay,we've and probably you have heard at least once that silly line huggers use,"thats cruel, your dog is sooo skinny".


----------



## Firehazard

william williamson said:


> she's not dieted,just well taken care of.
> just thought I'd put up he pics for folks to see.


great lookin bulldog.. Yeah shes not in [] shape BUT she just screams bulldog!

Alot of dillutes on this forum..  LOL


----------



## william williamson

Firehazard said:


> great lookin bulldog.. Yeah shes not in [] shape BUT she just screams bulldog!
> 
> Alot of dillutes on this forum..  LOL


thats an irony that brings several points to the table.
first,I'm pit bull,yet she was the daughter of a " blue pit" I rescued/stole from my cuban buddy.he bought her as a status symbol,in miami in 2000 when the breed ban had been in effect for around 15 years.my dog,sorta,yet he did breed her,and chica was one of the pups which I also re-adopted at at 3.
next is,this dogs got staff in her,and by God and all thats good,ya know when you look at a dog,and she oozes that thing you look for that screams I'm game? well, she screams it. so,reflectively,never doubt game staffs.
and this dog will pull he!! off it's hinges.
she's given me 6 great years,me and my ACD.she is my angel.


----------



## Firehazard

Tacoma.. LOL game staffs..  I dont spit that pitterstaff nonsense as all staffs came from [] stock and some still hold true to that.. LOL despite public opinoin..

Im munchin on my size 12 now, don't like many "Blue" dogs.. but shes small and has the true bulldog head IMO I like the stance ready to work, LOL but yeah.. Tudors said it best no matter how bias we like to be... "Good dogs are where you find em" thats a good dog.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

I wanted to add that the better the structure the better the dog stands naturally without being manipulated the "free stack". The more a dog has to be positioned usually the more out of balance they are... LOL that isn't to include wiggle butts. I'm talking about when they are still naturally.

I hope that helps more 

It is much better if you want a true eval of the dog to have someone do it hands on... pictures can be deceiving as manipulated stacks can sometimes hide faults...

When I judge a dog I'm pretty color blind LOL. 
I own a rainbow patch so to speak LOL

Though I do not appreciate extreme washed out dilutes that is a preference not something I would look at when judging the total dog unless I was looking at it from a breeding standpoint...


----------



## william williamson

Patch-O-Pits said:


> I wanted to add that the better the structure the better the dog stands naturally without being manipulated the "free stack". The more a dog has to be positioned usually the more out of balance they are... LOL that isn't to include wiggle butts. I'm talking about when they are still naturally.
> 
> I hope that helps more
> 
> It is much better if you want a true eval of the dog to have someone do it hands on... pictures can be deceiving as manipulated stacks can sometimes hide faults...
> 
> When I judge a dog I'm pretty color blind LOL.
> I own a rainbow patch so to speak LOL
> 
> Though I do not appreciate extreme washed out dilutes that is a preference not something I would look at when judging the total dog unless I was looking at it from a breeding standpoint...


I understand,I think it's better to see a dog in it's natural movement,then let it pull up on it's own.
I'd forgotten about thes pics then was looking for pics for our costa rica website and found them.I thought too,or knew,A better reading is assessed with natural flow shots.whats normal to the dog.thanks,


----------



## k8nkane

I want to participate in this so bad, but Kane doesn't know what "standing still" is, lol. It's so bad that when I got into the market for a new camera, I specifically looked for reviews on cameras with good "action" shots, haha.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

k8nkane said:


> I want to participate in this so bad, but Kane doesn't know what "standing still" is, lol. It's so bad that when I got into the market for a new camera, I specifically looked for reviews on cameras with good "action" shots, haha.


LOL then you can cheat a little into a stack by putting some peanut butter or soft cheese at the dogs head level mushed onto a fence post to help get the free stack or manipulated stack. or have someone stack the dog and you take the pictures. Yes, happy wiggly dogs are fun, I've got them too.


----------



## k8nkane

Awesome. I'll have to do the peanut butter on a fence thing though. I don't have anyone to help me who wouldn't think I was weird for taking stacked pics of my dog, lol. I'll have to be quick though! Peanut Butter = BEST THING EVAR for Kane; he can smash an entire (average-sized) jar in under 20 minutes, lol.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

k8nkane said:


> Awesome. I'll have to do the peanut butter on a fence thing though. I don't have anyone to help me who wouldn't think I was weird for taking stacked pics of my dog, lol. I'll have to be quick though! Peanut Butter = BEST THING EVAR for Kane; he can smash an entire (average-sized) jar in under 20 minutes, lol.


LOL It does really work. I've done it with puppies while working them on a stand command LOL


----------



## strengthcourageloyalty

Ok I have a question about the gay tail. Is there a way to correct that?


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

strengthcourageloyalty said:


> Ok I have a question about the gay tail. Is there a way to correct that?


 No, there isn't; is is just the way the tail is structurally.


----------



## k8nkane

Gay tail?????


----------



## Aireal

not the greatest but best i have for now, i need to get one like the second without the ball in her mouth


----------



## strengthcourageloyalty

@ Patch o pits thanx. I was just wondering because Duece has one and it erks the hell out of me. I want to get him in some shows but I dont think its gonna work with his tail like that.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

I've seen dogs with gay tails actually finish in shows. No dog is perfect. Some faults are worse than others and it depends on what the judges are like... To me showing is for fun, of course getting wins is nice too LOL. Post some pictures


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

Aireal how old is the dog?


----------



## LadyRampage

Would like an evaluation on this one... Wanting to see if I'm being a little harsh when I evaluate him myself..lmao


----------



## strengthcourageloyalty

Here he is Patch O Pits.
















Sorry if they are blurry. I need a new cam.


----------



## Aireal

Patch-O-Pits said:


> Aireal how old is the dog?


81/2 months in the pic sorry should have said that she JUST turned 9 months


----------



## wild_deuce03

strengthcourageloyalty said:


> Ok I have a question about the gay tail. Is there a way to correct that?


OK, can someone please tell what a "gay" tail is???!!!


----------



## k8nkane

I asked the same question, didn't get an answer, so actually looked it up on google, lol. It's where the tail curls up over the back in natural carriage.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

k8nkane said:


> Gay tail?????


 Sorry I didn't see the questions...

strengthcourageloyalty posted his dog which shows an example of it, but you can read more here on the faults page:
American Pit Bull Terrier Network Faults and Disqualifications
It is considered a serious but not disqualifying fault.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

strengthcourageloyalty said:


> Here he is Patch O Pits.


 He is adorable but I absolutely can see it right away, and there is no hiding that in the ring. Some faults can be hidden a little through manipulated stacks, but a good judge picks up on them when they do hands on or the dog moves anyway. A gay tail is pretty impossible to hide. i wish i had a better answer for you. He is adorable.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

Aireal said:


> 81/2 months in the pic sorry should have said that she JUST turned 9 months


Wait until she is a little older right now she is high in the rear and appears to be going though a growth spurt. That is something that can even out as she grows. I don't like to eval pups in the gangly stage because they tend to change so much. Evals are best done when a pup is 8 weeks and then again when they are mature. What Bloodline is she?


----------



## LadyRampage

Hey Patch you missed my dog..lol


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

LadyRampage said:


> Would like an evaluation on this one... Wanting to see if I'm being a little harsh when I evaluate him myself..lmao


Great expressions, and what a cool face.

I also like to see good turn in the stifle 

He has a lot of leg under him... How old???

His chest didn't fill in in front though the side depth is ok but still lacking some. If he is young that could correct.

He looks a little lose in the elbows or it could just be the angle of the picture.

Does his right wrist turn out? I don't notice it on the left so I was wondering if maybe he had an injury to it.

In some of the picts his ears look full drop and in others semi-prick. It really doesn't matter much in ADBA . which I'm guessing he is registered with. Some UKC judges I find have issues with ears that aren't perfect.

The angels aren't good enough in the pictures to judge topline and rear assembly.

How is his bite?


----------



## LadyRampage

great bite, he is between 10-11 months in these pictures, the first pic being when he is 11 months.

He's got one elbow that he tends to throw every once in awhile, and I really noticed it when I was going thru all his pictures. He doesn't have any injuries.

He's a big one.. biggest in his litter, is in the high 50s where his littermates are in the 40s and just touching 50 at times.. His ears are usually rose semi pricked especially when he's trying to get my attention ..lol

I've been hoping he would lose a little bit of his extra lip, but it isn't to bad..lol

this is one of his brothers..








and one with both of them together... let me just say.. I had ALOT of comments about Edward's size in the puppy classes...he was at leats double the size of everyone else.. this picture shows them at 11 months old, almost 12 months old at Nationals..


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

They are both adorable.

I figured he was young. It is hard to fully judge the youngsters .... his chest could still possibly fill out then. 

The extra lippy skin though isn't going. I wasn't sure if he was lippy or if from how he was being held, the collar positioning or from his bite. That is why I asked. It doesn't look bad.

I like your pup's rear much better than his brother; his brother is straight in the stifle and doesn't have much angulation at least from that picture. but his brothers shoulders and ears better. 

LOL now to piece them both together LOL. I always say I want to put different parts of mine all on one dog to make the perfect dog.


----------



## k8nkane

How do you tell the dog is lippy?? I can't see it. (But I also don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for, lol.)


----------



## LadyRampage

On his muzzle his lips hang down lower than his jaw line, thus being lippy..lol

Yeah and his brother has done much better in the show ring than Edward has, which is actually surprising to me, but then again I've always liked a better rear end then the front end..lol I'm definetly hoping Edward does much better in the adult classes..lol Edward is definetly starting to have a much better chest the older he gets, now just to get him in shape..lol 

That has been my biggest issue with his brother...that rear end, and when he does better than Edward I just shake my head, but then again most people are surprised to know they are brothers because of the big size difference..lol Of course I didn't show a picture their other brother Jacob who is a more solid over all package, but to me, his head is lacking a little..lol 

Thank you very much for lookin them over PoP I appreciate it!


----------



## k8nkane

Ohh, I see it now.

KANE IS LIPPY. lol. Now that I know there is such a thing!


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

k8nkane said:


> Ohh, I see it now.
> 
> KANE IS LIPPY. lol. Now that I know there is such a thing!


To understand head structure better go to:
American Pit Bull Terrier Network Head structure pit bull


----------



## k8nkane

Okay, these are the best I could get, lol, even doing the peanut butter method. Kane's a little over a year.










I had to get creative for the front shots, lol.






















































And then some outtakes just for fun.


----------



## dmoreken

*Look at this*

[Sassy at 15 months


----------



## dmoreken

*My other female*

Stormy at 2 years old


----------



## Tellu367185

This is an awesome post!...

Here is Ava, 7 month old bitch that I fostered. From a backyard breeder.

























I don't have her any more (she was adopted) but I'm still interested on what your opinions are on her conformation


----------



## t1dirty

i need to take some pics and get in on this


----------



## PIT Momma

ok im a newb..... what is a "stacked photo"?


----------



## Silence

PIT Momma said:


> ok im a newb..... what is a "stacked photo"?


Stacking a show dog.


----------



## PatienceFlame

this was Spazz at 9 months almost

Natural









Front









Stack attempt









and Bogart, he is hard to take photos of..he wont sit still and his head was turning to look at me

side:


----------



## YAHHOO

Here are some of Charlie, for evaluation!


----------



## apbtmom76

oh he is gorgeous, is all I will say that and a nice straight front


----------



## YAHHOO

apbtmom76 said:


> oh he is gorgeous, is all I will say that and a nice straight front


Thank you! He is one of LadyRampage's his brothers, have a thread on here somewhere. We are just practicing his stacking, he does fine, until someone gets close then he gets the wiggly butts and wants to turn and say hi lol!


----------



## apbtmom76

I know who he is, lol, I love Stacia's dogs, hopefully ONE day I will own one as well  SO glad the judges don't touch them in the ADBA, hahah Phoebe would fail everytime


----------



## performanceknls

YAHHOO said:


> Here are some of Charlie, for evaluation!


Nice pup but the angles are off when you took the picture. Can you take it again from the side? Make sure you get the camera down level with the dog instead of from the top. Thanks


----------



## YAHHOO

performanceknls said:


> Nice pup but the angles are off when you took the picture. Can you take it again from the side? Make sure you get the camera down level with the dog instead of from the top. Thanks


Ok, we were try, with momma when she gets down to take the pic he can't stand it haha and tries to go give her some lovins... Need to get someone with a better camera then my iPhone to take the pic too!


----------



## I GOT PITBULL$

*CHECK MY DOG OUT NEW ON THE FORUM WHAT YA THINK*

CHECK OUT MY DOG


----------



## performanceknls

You did not post a picture


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

How old is Charlie? I love his face, so sweet looking.
I hate though seeing a pit bull with its tail tucked. So work on getting him happy and comfortable before taking the pictures.


----------



## Elvisfink

So how does Miss Poison Ivy mesure up?

12 Weeks









16 Months









2 Years


----------



## Sadie

Patch here are some of Bogart let me know what you think still working on stacking but I think these are some decent pictures to judge him. Thanks


----------



## Rudy4747

Poison Ivy is a beautiful dog. I love the build of this girl. She is a dog I would love to have at my house.


----------



## performanceknls

Shoulders look good as well as top line, tail set, rear angulation, and he is very square. He is a really nice looking puppy and in some of the pictures his chest is a little shallow but he is just a pup and that should fill in nicely. In the last picture you can see a better chest but barely so as he gets older it will improve. I wish he had a bit more fore chest but again that could come with time. He could use more length of brisket and I am not sure if that will improve. Now to those FEET! lol typical game bred feet! they are soft in the pastern, Siren's feet are just as bad as are some of her offspring.  I am not a fan of his head in these pictures but that should change as he matures and should fill out a bit. It is a bit snippy for male but again he is a pup.

Overall a really nice dog and you should do very well with him in the ADBA, one of the better looking dogs I am seen lately.


----------



## Sadie

Thank you Lisa that helps a lot yes he is still young 8 months to be exact so he's not done maturing yet some of the things you pointed out may improve as he matures awesome feedback appreciate it.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

> So how does Miss Poison Ivy measure up?


 That puppy picture is way too adorable!!!!


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

performanceknls said:


> Shoulders look good as well as top line, tail set, rear angulation, and he is very square. He is a really nice looking puppy and in some of the pictures his chest is a little shallow but he is just a pup and that should fill in nicely. In the last picture you can see a better chest but barely so as he gets older it will improve. I wish he had a bit more fore chest but again that could come with time. He could use more length of brisket and I am not sure if that will improve. Now to those FEET! lol typical game bred feet! they are soft in the pastern.
> It is a bit snippy for male but again he is a pup.
> 
> Overall a really nice dog and you should do very well with him in the ADBA, one of the better looking dogs I am seen lately.


He is adorable!

I agree with Lisa on the critique.

As for the feet, you can sometimes help it some by running or walking in the sand.

Depending on the line he is from he may mature and redistribute weight until 2-3 years old, so some things may change as Lisa said, but others are pretty set.

When you are showing keep an eye also on his hocks they appear to have a slight turn in in some of the picts which may be his lack of mature muscle development. LOL though it may also be he is a wiggly pup not wanting to stay in STACK. :woof:


----------



## Sadie

Yeah he did NOT want to stand still at all during these shots it was not easy to get him to stay still LOL ... It's funny because when he is outside on the leash he stacks naturally without any help from me lol. I am still working with him on stacking. But thank you both for your wonderful critiques! I am sending you both rep points.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

Let him stack naturally then and don't manipulate it. LOL The more I try to move Bodacious the goofier and wigglier she gets because she loves the attention. So, I almost always just let her free stack. It is just easier. I like looking at natural stands/free stacks better.


----------



## performanceknls

Elvisfink said:


> So how does Miss Poison Ivy mesure up?
> 
> 12 Weeks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 16 Months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Years


I LOVE Ivy the only thing I really see wrong with her is her chest is too shallow, I have seen her in person and that is all I could find wrong with her. She is one sexy little dog!!


----------



## B-TownBullyz

Here is my boy I would love to c wut u guys think.... C if it matches the flaws I c. Thanks










































and my pup


----------



## performanceknls

I think there is an thread like this in the bully section you might want to post them up their. I only know the UKC and ADBA standard I saw your signature and you have bullies correct? I do not know the ABKC standard but in the bully 101 section you will get better feed back.


----------



## performanceknls

here is the link for Bully evaluation
http://www.gopitbull.com/bullies-101/34022-structure-faults-6.html


----------



## aus_staffy

B-TownBullyz said:


> Here is my boy I would love to c wut u guys think.... C if it matches the flaws I c. Thanks


Post it here, mate. There are probably more knowledgeable bully people on that section. http://www.gopitbull.com/bullies-101/34022-structure-faults.html

NVM. That'll teach me to post at work! Thanks, Lisa!


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

Elvisfink the adult picts aren't stacked so it is hard to see true structure. In the puppy picture she looks straight in the stifle and lacking some shoulder layback but really shoulders are hard to judge unless you do hands on... In the adult pictures she does appear to lack fore-chest. Can you post some stacked shots?


----------



## B-TownBullyz

K thanks guys


----------



## Black Rabbit

Ok so I got a few new pics with much better angles 


















And Lisa this one is just for you, remember we talked about muscle tone before. He's been buffing up What do you think


----------



## performanceknls

WOW he looks great in muscle tone! His shoulders look really straight, shallow in the chest and lacks fore chest however I still really like him he is a nice dog to look at. I will have to go look at some other pictures I do not remember his chest looking like that it could be the way he is standing. The second picture he is standing weird in the front.


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

kg420,
In the first shot it looks like he is ready to leap so isn't in a good position to tell much. The muscle tone is coming in nicely in that last shot.  His rear is way over extended in the picks. 
I know how hard it is with a happy happy wiggly dog to get stacked shots... Believe me I have a house full of them.
Work on getting that handsome boys hocks parallel to the ground.
For example I cropped down a shot of Bodacious standing looking out my window free stacked to show you ( Excuse her wagging tail, she was happy being a bird watcher, but you can get the point LOL)









OK this one is better, tail finally still her up on the bed LOL









Just play around and you'll get a good shot. sometimes the best pictures come when they are standing naturally watching something intently, at least that is what I find.


----------



## Black Rabbit

LOL yea the second pic I had his stick and was just about to throw it so he was on pounce status  Thank you for those pics I'll try to work on the stacking, I'm such a newbie to stacking lol. Thank you both for the comments we'll work on getting better pics. I never have anyone to take pics so I always just tell Dosia to stack and he just kinda stands like he does in the second pic. I'll be working on that, thank you both so much for the pointers (hugs)


----------



## Patch O' Pits

I know what you mean, I never have help with pictures either. Luckily, most of mine will free stack. You can use a toy from a distance to actually get them to move into place. If he's too toy driven use food and visa versa to help him get there without touching him so you can have the camera ready.


----------



## Indie

Indie, 8.5 months.

Her topline is definitely improving over what it was.. what are your thoughts on her as a whole? Don't hold back! :roll:



















please excuse the scrape on her nose.. still haven't figured out how she got it!

** EDIT**
How do you think she would fare in the ADBA? I will be registering her with them so we can WP, and perhaps we will give their conf. a try.


----------



## performanceknls

You can give it a shot, I saw some video of here and she might have a hard time in the ADBA. I know she is a conformation CH in UKC but they are looking for a different type of dog in the ADBA. There are more moderate dogs that do well in both venues but she is really short backed and a little big (over muscular) for ADBA. I would not have thought that by looking at the pictures but after seeing video I don't know. You can always try it and see if she can pick up points.

I know she is a UKC ch but there are some faults that would really go against you in the ADBA ring.
Her top line is very straight and her tail set is very high so she lacks length in hip.
In the picture she looks straight in the rear and it was hard to tell in the video. If you have a better picture that would help this one she is over extended in the rear in this one. It is also hard to tell how straight her shoulders are, it is the brindle and white that I cannot see the lay back in her shoulder. Her muscles are a bit bunchy for ADBA they should be more long but she is conditioned well. Of course this is all my opinion I never thought I would have a shot in UKC but I did well. You never know how you will do till you go.


----------



## Indie

Thank you. I just wanted another opinion on the ADBA thing, b/c someone had mentioned before that I give it a try, as she might do well. The biggest thing affecting her in the UKC is her backline/topline, which looks like it might improve a bit more, but it'll never be what they are looking for. I would say with her rear legs, she definitely lacks a turn to her stifle, no matter how she's stacked. I also hope her chest drops some more after her first heat. I chose that pic of her b/c it's how she naturally stands, and it's better than the ones I took alone of her stacked. :/ Thanks for your input, it's really helpful!


----------



## Cindy1979

NesOne said:


> I'll have to take some better pics, but here's what I got for now, and are approx. from 1 year ago:


Beautiful dog. Love the body and colour.


----------



## Cindy1979

performanceknls said:


> I LOVE Ivy the only thing I really see wrong with her is her chest is too shallow, I have seen her in person and that is all I could find wrong with her. She is one sexy little dog!!


Beautiful colour.


----------



## YAHHOO

performanceknls said:


> Nice pup but the angles are off when you took the picture. Can you take it again from the side? Make sure you get the camera down level with the dog instead of from the top. Thanks












Its a little better, but hard to get the bugger to stand still he moved his front leg right as the pic was taken!


----------



## performanceknls

Nice pup! Chest is shallow but that is because he is not mature. When his chest comes in he is going to be really nice! Tail set is a little high but that's about all I really see, that is one of Stacia's dogs right? VERY NICE!


----------



## YAHHOO

performanceknls said:


> Nice pup! Chest is shallow but that is because he is not mature. When his chest comes in he is going to be really nice! Tail set is a little high but that's about all I really see, that is one of Stacia's dogs right? VERY NICE!


Yea he is Townsend's Wrath, out of her Maggie and Jimbo. We will be at Georgetown next weekend with him and I know at least one of his brothers will be there as well.


----------



## Rudy4747

What do you guys think of our girl Zoey? She is just over a year.


----------



## performanceknls

cute girl  are you going to TX? Her underline could be better like her length of brisket. her head and muzzle looks snippy but I would have to see her head on, her shoulders look a bit straight but again maybe more pictures would help.


----------



## HappyPuppy

When one talks about 'shallow chest' or depth of chest - is it referring to being down btwn the elbows or what sticks out in front of the dog?


----------



## performanceknls

Depth of chest does refer to the chest coming down to the elbows as per the standard. Shallow chest means it does not do down to the elbows but in young dogs many time the chest has just not dropped. Fore-chest is what sticks out in front.


----------



## Sadie

The best chest on the planet. Dawn's Angus this boy has chest for days fine looking dog I don't think it get's any deeper than this right here.


----------



## performanceknls

DANG! nice fore chest and depth... almost too much but one sexy dog!


----------



## Sadie

I am going to steal this dog from her when I get the chance LOL ... Dawn girl you better watch this boy at the ADBA shows I have my eyes on him LOL


----------



## cEElint

Up top.......


----------



## PatienceFlame

I am not sure If I ever posted any of Bogart. (No new photos can be taken. I am in the process of driving out to vegas to get my things and my dogs so if they arenot right I am sorry)

Bogart:

























and newer ones of Riley:


----------



## performanceknls

cEElint said:


> back up top... got a new/better pic of Diesel


Is this a pitterstaff?
High tail set and the tail looks really thick, like not to standard for either AST or APBT. Top line is a little straight, and rear could uses more angulation but if this is a pitterstaff or AST those are common in the breed. Cute pup


----------



## performanceknls

RileyRoo said:


> I am not sure If I ever posted any of Bogart. (No new photos can be taken. I am in the process of driving out to vegas to get my things and my dogs so if they arenot right I am sorry)
> 
> ]


Bogart does not have good pictures but you can post better ones later.

Riley's shoulders look terribly straight in these pictures


----------



## cEElint

performanceknls said:


> Is this a pitterstaff?
> High tail set and the tail looks really thick, like not to standard for either AST or APBT. Top line is a little straight, and rear could uses more angulation but if this is a pitterstaff or AST those are common in the breed. Cute pup


he's bully .. hard to tell, but he's as tall and Dre and Daisy already.. just filling out now

guessing he has some AB in him


----------



## performanceknls

Oh ok, you might get a better critique in the bully section they have a thread like this one there. I have no clue about the bully standard.


----------



## meno222

what do you guys think.dont have front or rear pics yet, what can you tell me from this pic. he is 14 months


----------



## Laughter777

Gonna repose, so hopefully they get seen...


----------



## motocross308

Laughter777 said:


> I'm hoping for some critic on both my stacking ability (or lack there of) and Jesse. I never noticed how downhill he is! Wow. Ok so these don't seem to work from Facebook, I'll have to wait till photobucket is cooperating again
> Left side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Front
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rear


i see nothing ?


----------



## 9361

Helena @ 4 years old. Please critique...


----------



## performanceknls

meno222 said:


> what do you guys think.dont have front or rear pics yet, what can you tell me from this pic. he is 14 months


First off that is a nice sexy dog!!:clap:

Tail set looks a little high but hard to tell in the picture and his chest needs to drop it is too shallow so hopefully as he matures that will correct.


----------



## performanceknls

Shes Got Heart said:


> Helena @ 4 years old. Please critique...


Helena is an adorable pet! poor breed type so I cannot critique other than she is adorable.


----------



## MISSAPBT

I wanna play  I don't have the best pics.


----------



## PatienceFlame

performanceknls said:


> Bogart does not have good pictures but you can post better ones later.
> 
> Riley's shoulders look terribly straight in these pictures


I will get him on monday with updated fully stacked front, rear and side shots for you.
Riley's not a big deal. she makes up for her lack in body with her drive. lol!
I just like showing photos of her really. :roll:


----------



## 9361

LOL Thanks anyway Lisa.  Might have broken my heart anyhow.


----------



## apbtproud

my turn, my turn. lol

*Side:*








free stacked- tad bit stretched out. lol








*Front:*This pic was taken in jan/feb. I can't remember when exactly but I know it was when it snowed in TX. lol








*Rear:*








She will be turning a year next weekend. I need some updated pics of her.She is UKC registered but I want to put her in ADBA. I hope the judges will like her, she needs to be trimmed up a bit- we are working on it.


----------



## 9361

Beautiful dog!!! I love black dogs!


----------



## performanceknls

apbtproud said:


> my turn, my turn. lol
> 
> *Side:*




VERY nice dog! Is she a UKC Ch? I would guess so and she is just beautiful. If I have to nit pick then I would say she could use a better tail set, from the pictures it looks pretty high and also maybe some more fore-chest but other than that a really nice dog. If you condition her better you should be good for ADBA. One thing I cannot tell because she is black is the muscles on the rear, if they are bunchy that is not a big deal in UKC but it is in the ADBA. They like a in shape dog with lean muscles not bunchy.


----------



## dixieland

apbtproud that is one stunning dog!:clap:


----------



## Laughter777

I'm hoping for some critic on both my stacking ability (or lack there of) and Jesse. I never noticed how downhill he is! Wow...but perhaps, he isn't stacked correctly...

























__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## apbtproud

performanceknls said:


> VERY nice dog! Is she a UKC Ch? I would guess so and she is just beautiful. If I have to nit pick then I would say she could use a better tail set, from the pictures it looks pretty high and also maybe some more fore-chest but other than that a really nice dog. If you condition her better you should be good for ADBA. One thing I cannot tell because she is black is the muscles on the rear, if they are bunchy that is not a big deal in UKC but it is in the ADBA. They like a in shape dog with lean muscles not bunchy.


She is a UKC CH, I have shown her twice. The first weekend out she earned her CH title and then the second time I brought her out she won her first Ch win. The judges really liked her and its so hard to put weight on her that is why I want to try for ADBA. I do know that I need to lean her out and condition her. I have been waiting because she will be turning 1 real soon. Thanks.



Shes Got Heart said:


> Beautiful dog!!! I love black dogs!


 Thank you.



dixieland said:


> apbtproud that is one stunning dog!:clap:


 Thanks,


----------



## aus_staffy

apbtproud, May 2008? Where have you been hiding?

Very nice dog.


----------



## apbtproud

:roll: Wow time flew by FAST.. lol


----------



## performanceknls

Laughter777 said:


> I'm hoping for some critic on both my stacking ability (or lack there of) and Jesse. I never noticed how downhill he is! Wow...but perhaps, he isn't stacked correctly...
> ]


Is this a dog you plan on showing? There is one major fault that sticks out and I do not know if you would be able to cover it up even if you tried. He is VERY high in the rear, so high it makes him sway back. He also could use more angulation in the rear. If you are planning on showing him you do not want to stack him square like that it really makes his faults stand out. Siren is high in the rear and what I do is overstack her rear end, meaning I put her feet back further than they need to be. What that does is lower her rear end and make her look not as high in the rear but doing that makes her look a little longer in the back. So if you are going to show over stack in the rear but he is so high you might not be able to hide it. If you had a nice square dog you did a pretty good job of stacking.


----------



## Laughter777

Our first shot









First attempt tonight...









And a little more stretched


----------



## aus_staffy

Hi, Laughter. As Lisa was saying, stretching out his back legs has somewhat masked his high rear. Just watch his front feet. In the last shot they're a little too far forward. If you have them where they are in the middle shot (or the first) and have his back feet like they are in the third, it'll look better.


----------



## performanceknls

Yes the last picture the front is too far in front of the dog and the back is over stretched. Unfortunately the fault is so big I do not think you can cover it up very much and when the dog moves you would be able to see it in the rear. The dog would crab or bounce when moved at a medium pace. If this is a show prospect then give it a try but I think you have a hard road ahead. You have so many little faults then the big fault of the high rear end, the tail set is also really high. Go to a conformation class to work on stacking but it looks like you have a good idea of how to stack. If you had a dog with fewer faults it would look good.


----------



## Sadie

I Agree with Lisa I am not an expert on conformation so I waited for Lisa to say it first the minute I saw this dogs rear I noticed how extremely high it was it sticks out big time. I do not think this dog is show quality conformation wise. You might be able to compete in WP or like sports but not conformation. There is no covering up a rear that high IMO


----------



## Laughter777

I never noticed how high it was till looking at the pictures! I always knew he was long...but never noticed it. I knew he had a high tail set also. This is good to know since my husband has always wanted to breed him. When we got him 5 years ago I agreed, but since finding this site and learning about titles, testing, etc that is out of the question. I actually had the person behind http://www.twystedmetalkennels.com
Suggest showing him and the girl behind http://www.dotcomamstaffs.com/tell me he could be a UKC champion! Lol


----------



## apbtproud

When you stack him set his rear legs a little far apart (wide) that will help a little as well.


----------



## apbtproud

Laughter777 said:


> I never noticed how high it was till looking at the pictures! I always knew he was long...but never noticed it. I knew he had a high tail set also. This is good to know since my husband has always wanted to breed him. When we got him 5 years ago I agreed, but since finding this site and learning about titles, testing, etc that is out of the question. I actually had the person behind http://www.twystedmetalkennels.com
> Suggest showing him and the girl behind DotCom AmStaffs USAtell me he could be a UKC champion! Lol


Twystedmetalkennels used to show in UKC now they have more american bullies and show in abkc. Very nice guy. That you could show your boy, yea you can show him- there is tricks of the trade to hide major faults. Like when stacking him as how I mentioned on the preivous post and put him towards an angel so it will minimize it.


----------



## Laughter777

I'm confused...we all saw the crappy swayback pics...


































He doesn't look to be swayback in the two new ones taken this evening...


----------



## Laughter777

Ok my husband pointed out his legs are under him in the swayback pics and behind him in the ones today...


----------



## aus_staffy

Laughter777 said:


> Ok my husband pointed out his legs are under him in the swayback pics and behind him in the ones today...


Yep it does make a noticeable difference.


----------



## Sadie

He does seem to still be a little high in the rear in the last 2 not as bad as the other pics but his top line is still off. Let's see what Lisa says but I can still see an issue with the rear.


----------



## performanceknls

Ok that second picture is MUCH better, see this is why pictures can be very deceiving! HE looks much better and you could show him in the UKC, his chest is not as deep as I would like but not bad he also looks a little long in the back but again not bad. Tail set even looks better in those angles. Does he have AST in him? I think I know what is off about his chest to me. Yes is chest comes down to the elbows but it still looks shallow then I saw the length of upper arm is very short and you see that in most AST's. With shorter upper arm bones his chest will come down to the elbow but his chest will not be as deep as it should be. Kind of a visual effect. In the UKC this is not as big of an issue sine many dogs lack upper arm but in the ADBA it would be noticed right away. Yes your stacking is much better in the last pictures


----------



## Laughter777

I am not sure about the AST. He is scatterbred...I think is the right term...Here's his pedigree Viewing Pedigree Details for Laughter's "Outlaw Jesse James" - Bully Breed Resource


----------



## performanceknls

hard to tell the pedigree is not complete


----------



## American_Pit13

Ok here are my few to pick apart 

Bumble Bee 









Crixus

















Xena
( sorry for the bath shot but its the only one I have of her even simi stacked lol)









Snoop


----------



## Luvum

Any thoughts on Gracie? I might add that her tail normally lays down flat except when she's at "attention" then she thinks she's part Pointer. If she looks a bit crooked in the head on pic, it's just my bad photography skills.
Thank you


----------



## Laughter777

performanceknls said:


> hard to tell the pedigree is not complete


Here's his sire's pedigree...although his sire isn't on this site, this female has the same sire and dam.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [61108] :: GRANDPA'S SHADOW (BELLAMY'S SHADOW)

And here is his dam's pedigree...again his Dan isn't on the site, but this female has the same sire and dam as him

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [314732] :: EVAN'S SASHA


----------



## performanceknls

Laughter777 said:


> Here's his sire's pedigree...although his sire isn't on this site, this female has the same sire and dam.
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [61108] :: GRANDPA'S SHADOW (BELLAMY'S SHADOW)
> 
> And here is his dam's pedigree...again his Dan isn't on the site, but this female has the same sire and dam as him
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [314732] :: EVAN'S SASHA


The sire's pedigree has some really nice gamebred dogs b ut the dog is still really scattterbred but still some nice dogs in the ped. The dam's ped has a lot of unknown dogs and is not complete, there is also a lot of blue dogs and that normally comes from AST's so that is where I think the lack of upper arm is coming from.


----------



## performanceknls

American_Pit13 said:


> Ok here are my few to pick apart


Overall Bee is very nice but could have a lower tail set

Xena and Crixus are pure perfection 

Hard to tell anything from that picture of snoop because he is not square to the camera but he is just a big dorky dog! I love that dog!


----------



## performanceknls

Luvum said:


> Any thoughts on Gracie? I might add that her tail normally lays down flat except when she's at "attention" then she thinks she's part Pointer. If she looks a bit crooked in the head on pic, it's just my bad photography skills.
> Thank you


Pretty dog! The chest could be deeper and a better fore chest but overall nice dog.


----------



## Laughter777

Lisa thanks for the info! I figured he was scatterbred and had I known at the time what I know now, we probably wouldn't have bought him....very large (basically built like him...) blue momma and very good looking gamebred looking daddy...not usually what you mix....


----------



## Luvum

performanceknls said:


> Pretty dog! The chest could be deeper and a better fore chest but overall nice dog.


Thank you for your thoughts


----------



## paintedwildd

What do you think the faults are on Odyssey. I think she has a high rear but I tried to mask it when stacking her, she's only 11 months and still has a bit of growing to do. Any opinions?

Sorry the pics aren't great quality, someone decided to chew the camera charger >.>

Side:


















I didn't stack her as well in this one









Front:


----------



## Sadie

I think she is gorgeous!!  Very Nice looking pup.


----------



## davidfitness83

When you stack the dog to show the front you want to have the dog in all fours as well not sitting down because this hides the chest construction and the true shape of the front legs. She looks very clean, she might have a bit of a roached back and I am not sure about her rear angulation, she also looks to be cowhocked. To be honest cheetas and lions have long backs with high rears and that is not stopping them from being the most efficient hunters in nature.


----------



## paintedwildd

davidfitness83 said:


> When you stack the dog to show the front you want to have the dog in all fours as well not sitting down because this hides the chest construction and the true shape of the front legs. She looks very clean, she might have a bit of a roached back and I am not sure about her rear angulation, she also looks to be cowhocked. To be honest cheetas and lions have long backs with high rears and that is not stopping them from being the most efficient hunters in nature.


Ahh I see, I'll post a proper front pic. I totally agree with roached back and the rear angulation, I think it could have more of a curve. She's not usually cowhocked, its just how she's standing so I'll have to work on that. Thanks for your opinion, it assures me that I'm not being too critical, I love her all the same 

Sadie - Thanks! She seems to be similar colour to the dog in your display pic which is gorgeous by the way :love2:

Here's an attempt at a better front pic:

Her legs kept going at funny angles, I didn't realise this was so hard lol


----------



## performanceknls

She is beautiful!!
She is not roach back! she actually has the best topline out of any other dogs I have seen, as per the ADBA standard you want curve on the back not a table top topline. Look at her tail set it is really nice and low which adds curve to the back and length of hip. Her rear angulation is fine it was just the way you had her stacked up. She is a little high in the rear but not bad, her chest should be a little deeper but she looks like a pup so it may drop. Now her underline is not ideal, she needs more length of brisket. BTW I do not see any thing that makes her look cow hocked.

She is very nice are you going to show ADBA? I think she should do well what is her ped?

edited to add.... licking the washer is cracking me up! Is that how you got her to stay still? good trick


----------



## davidfitness83

performanceknls said:


> She is beautiful!!
> She is not roach back! she actually has the best topline out of any other dogs I have seen, as per the ADBA standard you want curve on the back not a table top topline. Look at her tail set it is really nice and low which adds curve to the back and length of hip. Her rear angulation is fine it was just the way you had her stacked up. She is a little high in the rear but not bad, her chest should be a little deeper but she looks like a pup so it may drop. Now her underline is not ideal, she needs more length of brisket. BTW I do not see any thing that makes her look cow hocked.
> 
> She is very nice are you going to show ADBA? I think she should do well what is her ped?
> 
> edited to add.... licking the washer is cracking me up! Is that how you got her to stay still? good trick


You dont see the rear feet slightly out? I thought judges base the angulation and other flaws on natural movement rather than a stacked pose since stacking can hide faults. I agree that the chest could be deeper but then again she is a pup and regardless of that she is probably fast as lightining and able to work.


----------



## paintedwildd

performanceknls said:


> She is beautiful!!
> She is not roach back! she actually has the best topline out of any other dogs I have seen, as per the ADBA standard you want curve on the back not a table top topline. Look at her tail set it is really nice and low which adds curve to the back and length of hip. Her rear angulation is fine it was just the way you had her stacked up. She is a little high in the rear but not bad, her chest should be a little deeper but she looks like a pup so it may drop. Now her underline is not ideal, she needs more length of brisket. BTW I do not see any thing that makes her look cow hocked.
> 
> She is very nice are you going to show ADBA? I think she should do well what is her ped?
> 
> edited to add.... licking the washer is cracking me up! Is that how you got her to stay still? good trick


Really?! Oh wow I always thought her topline was bad, thanks. Haha yea, lots of peanut butter and a washing machine did the trick.
I'm looking forward to seeing how she'll change as she matures, she doesn't have a pedigree as far as I know, I rescued her as a pup. She's a bit on the heavy side at 53lbs so I dunno if she would even be able to show?


----------



## performanceknls

With no paperwork there is not way to show and what a shame, she is really pretty.
@david yes movement is a huge part of showing dogs but you can also tell a lot of faults by stacking, you can't hide bad shoulders, underlines, W/E in front, and other faults. At the same time you can have a dog look perfect stacked you go to move it and it is a train wreck! You can tell the dog is not cow hocked by how it stands, just because the back feet turn out a bit does not make it cow hocked. Now the pictures of my dog you can see where the turn starts up high at the hocks, this is cow hocked. However he almost has his ADBA CH and it is a fault but not a major one. The only thing I would like to see movement on this pup is her shoulders, they look straight but I cannot tell unless I see her move or feel them. See the roll of skin on top of her shoulders? a lot of times that indicated straight shoulders but I would need to fee her for sure.


----------



## performanceknls

Here is another really nice ADBA dog and note the topline, this is perfectly acceptable and to breed standard.


----------



## Sadie

paintedwildd said:


> Ahh I see, I'll post a proper front pic. I totally agree with roached back and the rear angulation, I think it could have more of a curve. She's not usually cowhocked, its just how she's standing so I'll have to work on that. Thanks for your opinion, it assures me that I'm not being too critical, I love her all the same
> 
> *Sadie - Thanks! She seems to be similar colour to the dog in your display pic which is gorgeous by the way :love2:*
> 
> Here's an attempt at a better front pic:
> 
> Her legs kept going at funny angles, I didn't realise this was so hard lol


Thank You very much  Bogart appreciates it. You got yourself a beautiful rescue. It's a shame she doesn't have paper's though she would do well in the ADBA!! You can still have fun working her though. I agree with Lisa on her evaluation.


----------



## davidfitness83

Lisa those are some beautiful dogs and I see what you mean about the cowhocked back legs.


----------



## performanceknls

Here is a better picture of him that I am hiding his rear legs with a good stack  Now when cow hocked becomes a problem is when it effects movement. I have seen dogs where the back legs twist in and out when they move and that is when it would really effect you in the show ring. Monsoon moves straight and why it is not a big deal.

For the sake of not being kennel blind any one care to evaluate this picture for me. Of course I think he is perfect


----------



## performanceknls

That is nice but would like to see the dog move, there is such a thing as over angulated and that dog looks like he might be over angulated. too much of a good thing is not always great  
My pups are almost over angulated


----------



## performanceknls

Very true but we have to go by what the breed standard says for faults. Siren is too high in the rear but that does not stop her from working.  k back on OT


----------



## davidfitness83

I wonder if the ABKC has an actual structural standard that depicts exactly what they are looking for like the ABDA or UKC with the APBT?


----------



## performanceknls

Yes they do see the bully section for the structure thread, please lets leave this to APBT structure and pictures only or this thread will get even longer.


----------



## Nizmo

edit:
nvm, saw this is apbt thread. duhhh lol


----------



## _blondie_

*want to see if my dog meets APBT standard*

okay let me start off by saying im new to the breed and to the site so take it easy on me haha 

i posted a few non stacking photos so you can get a better idea i guess since i have not really practiced stacking with her.
i tried my best hah 
so let me know what standards she meets and her faults


----------



## aus_staffy

Hi blondie and welcome to the forum! This is the best place for this subject http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/28793-photos-structure-faults.html

There is already a sticky to post your dogs in and have them appraised by the keen eyed experts we have here. She's a pretty looking girl!

Edit: and like magic it's been moved!


----------



## Sadie

Thanks Aussie  I moved your post to the structure and fault section. Performance Kennels will tell you what she thinks when she signs in.


----------



## _blondie_

alright sounds good.
thanks guys!


----------



## performanceknls

How old is she? First off she is very cute and looks like two of my dogs. She is a chocolate brindle to be exact, she has those chocolate highlights that I find very attractive!! 

Her underline is nice but her chest could be deeper and I ask age because that could change as she matures if she is young. Her head is a bit small for her body, she could use more definition in her jaw line. I do not mean she should have a block head but more definition in her jaw. Her top line is nice and good tail set but could use a little more angulation in her rear. Her font toes, toe out a bit meaning they point out just a bit but she does not look easty/westy in the front meaning the feet really turn out.


----------



## _blondie_

performanceknls said:


> How old is she? First off she is very cute and looks like two of my dogs. She is a chocolate brindle to be exact, she has those chocolate highlights that I find very attractive!!
> 
> Her underline is nice but her chest could be deeper and I ask age because that could change as she matures if she is young. Her head is a bit small for her body, she could use more definition in her jaw line. I do not mean she should have a block head but more definition in her jaw. Her top line is nice and good tail set but could use a little more angulation in her rear. Her font toes, toe out a bit meaning they point out just a bit but she does not look easty/westy in the front meaning the feet really turn out.


she is a year and 5 months old.
thank you for your input 
your dogs are beautiful (;


----------



## performanceknls

She should continue to mature, I know Siren looked so skinny till she was 3 then she really filled out. Thanks


----------



## _blondie_

from what i hear the first year is hight. and then the next 2 years is filling out.
im not too sure how true that is ahah ;P


----------



## _blondie_

performanceknls said:


> She should continue to mature, I know Siren looked so skinny till she was 3 then she really filled out. Thanks


by the way Siren is too good looking!
how did you get her in such amazing shape?


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella

I posted a thread in the picture forum and got alot of positive feed back on Bella's conformation. Thinking of taking her to her first UKC show next month.


----------



## performanceknls

Siren does all kinds of sports and stays in shape that way 

Bella is a nice look dog for UKC I think she will do well for you. Her chest could have more depth but her underline is really nice. Tail set a bit high but in UKC most of those dogs are so you should be fine. The only thing that might hurt you is her natural ears and her muzzle is not a square as it could be. She is pretty I hope she does well for you.


----------



## Blue_Nose_Bella

performanceknls said:


> Siren does all kinds of sports and stays in shape that way
> 
> Bella is a nice look dog for UKC I think she will do well for you. Her chest could have more depth but her underline is really nice. Tail set a bit high but in UKC most of those dogs are so you should be fine. The only thing that might hurt you is her natural ears and her muzzle is not a square as it could be. She is pretty I hope she does well for you.


Thanks Lisa  I appreciate the feed back. She is only 8 months right now so do you think her chest will get the depth it needs and I am assuming her head is still growing as well so will that help the look of her muzzle? Do judges not like the natural ears  They sit perfect half rose prick which I personally love and she was 4 1/2 months when I got her so I didn't bother with the cropping due to her age. Thanks again!!


----------



## Patch-O-Pits

> Do judges not like the natural ears


All my dogs that are titled have natural ears.  Almost all ADBA dogs that show have natural ears and in UKC although it isn't seen quite as much, there is more of a trend on the rise not to crop at least with females. But still most of the dogs in the UKC show ring are cropped. When I first was showing years ago in UKC mine were among the handful, locally they weren't cropped .


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## Committed2excellence

*puppy pics*

















FYI-The puppy is a conformation champion but will primarily be a competition obedience and ringsport dog as well as Total dog with weight pull titles,etc


----------



## performanceknls

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Thanks Lisa  I appreciate the feed back. She is only 8 months right now so do you think her chest will get the depth it needs and I am assuming her head is still growing as well so will that help the look of her muzzle? Do judges not like the natural ears  They sit perfect half rose prick which I personally love and she was 4 1/2 months when I got her so I didn't bother with the cropping due to her age. Thanks again!!


Unfortunately in UKC cropped ears are more favorable than non cropped. Since they are nice natural ears that is a good thing but still not favorable among judges. It's one of those things in UKC, ADBA they are all natural for the most part. I usually have the most cropped dogs there.



Committed2excellence said:


> View attachment 9569
> 
> 
> View attachment 9570
> 
> 
> FYI-The puppy is a conformation champion but will primarily be a competition obedience and ringsport dog as well as Total dog with weight pull titles,etc


Well lets hope they keep the WP in UKC, last I heard it was unknown at this point.
Nice looking pup but hard to tell anything from the pictures, it looks like he could use more angulation in the rear but again I cannot tell for sure in the pictures. Thanks and :welcome: to the forum


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## Committed2excellence

Thanks. I have a 3 day show this weekend and will take some with him stretched out. SPoke to a couple WP judges and it looks pretty bad. Went to an iron dog wp event last weekend and earned a title. If all else fails, we will pull with Iron Dog and APA pullers(not a fan of ADBA). Hopefully by some miracle the program will remain.


----------



## Committed2excellence

Picture after his first CHampion class win. Stretched out a little bit more. Wrong photo. He's being lazy and sagging. Will post another


----------



## Committed2excellence

NOW I remember why I teach dogs sendouts and jumps over the palisades wall as opposed to teaching them conformation. Dog stacks naturally by himself and I was messing him up. In the hands of an experienced handler he is dangerous. Here is a good pic. Feedback please


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## proud pitbull owner

this is bella she a little over a year. then we have tex he is almost 3. honest opnions please..


----------



## motocross308

Blue_Nose_Bella said:


> Thanks Lisa  I appreciate the feed back. She is only 8 months right now so do you think her chest will get the depth it needs and I am assuming her head is still growing as well so will that help the look of her muzzle? Do judges not like the natural ears  They sit perfect half rose prick which I personally love and she was 4 1/2 months when I got her so I didn't bother with the cropping due to her age. Thanks again!!


brock championed in a weekend with natural ears and i know another that championed with fly natural ears .. her owner posts here


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## Blue_Nose_Bella

motocross308 said:


> brock championed in a weekend with natural ears and i know another that championed with fly natural ears .. her owner posts here


That is AWESOME :clap: Great to know that the ears don't make the dog!


----------



## performanceknls

proud pitbull owner said:


> this is bella she a little over a year. then we have tex he is almost 3. honest opnions please..


The pictures of Bella are hard to see any real structure. She is cute but comparing her to the breed standard she looks like she has a lot of AST in her but better pictures could help.

Tex also looks like he has some AST in him. His jaw could use more definition and he has too much lip. Brindle is sometimes hard to look at at least for me so there are somethings I cannot tell for sure. He looks like he could use more upper arm and a better top line.

Sometimes I do not like commenting on dogs because it seems so nit picky but I am just trying to compare them to the breed standard. I think all the dogs on here are cute, may not be perfect but cute!


----------



## Mhmmlissy

Pictures of my six month old, Gator, his color is blue fawn. Please be as honest as possible, one thing I have noticed are his feet are turned out in the front.
Let me know of anymore structure faults, please.


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## HeavyJeep

*The Cali Ma*

I would love to have a few of you all give me your opinions and thoughts on her!!! I know they arent pro shots or anything  Do I need any other (better) shots??

































I love the last pic! her ears are folded back


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## s.mariegreene

i would like to know what you all think of my big boy


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## performanceknls

HeavyJeep said:


> I would love to have a few of you all give me your opinions and thoughts on her!!! I know they arent pro shots or anything  Do I need any other (better) shots??


Yes better pictures please, stacked if you can but also take them from down low where the dog is instead of on top of him. He is also a little over weight and it makes it hard to see how good his shoulder are.


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## Sadie

Heavy Jeep besides the fact that she has an awesome pedigree .. From what I can tell her ears are pretty flat and a little long it's minor barracudda had dumbo ears LOL so don't feel bad. And she could loose a few pounds. I don't know how old she is but I think if you brought her down in weight some you could really see her structure defined better. Other than that she looks good. I like her.


----------



## performanceknls

Mhmmlissy said:


> Pictures of my six month old, Gator, his color is blue fawn. Please be as honest as possible, one thing I have noticed are his feet are turned out in the front.
> Let me know of anymore structure faults, please.


Do you know his pedigree? he looks he has a lot of amstaff in him so it makes it hard for me to judge him to the adba standard.


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## performanceknls

s.mariegreene said:


> i would like to know what you all think of my big boy


I need better pictures I cannot tell from the ones you posted, Pretty boy though!


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## kcleveland

Love all these pretty pits!


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## 00 S/C Lightning

Onyx should have a little longer gate but you can get the idea of it









Staffordshire bull terrier


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## performanceknls

I do not know the SBT standard but Onyx is SEXY! and I love his shoulders!!


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## 00 S/C Lightning

Thx lisa. He was just over 35lbs in thst pic at davids house. He has put on another 1.5lbs since then. Most of that weight went straight to his shoulders and quarters. With a already tight tuck his waist is tiny


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## HeavyJeep

Could I please have an opinion on this dude  
Kane @ 2 years..


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## performanceknls

handsome dog but I cannot see much from the picture. I do see good angulation in the rear and I really like his head.


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## Lua

Hi guys, I got super stoked on this tread... lol here's some pix of Rayne. She is about 10 months in these pictures.





































And for LOLS....

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## performanceknls

WHAT A GORGEOUS DOG! what is her ped? Her shoulders are great, nice angulation on them and it seems we are seeing a lot of dogs that are straight in the shoulders. I am a big shoulder person because I have a dog who is straight in the shoulders and she has a hard time turning in agility. Nice top line, head, chest, front and rear. The only thing I think could be better and maker her perfect is a lower tail set. Other than the tail is she perfection and what I like to see in a dog I would keep for myself!

looking back at the pictures if I had to nit pick her chest could be a little deeper and her brisket could have more length. I hope I said that right, lol


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## 00 S/C Lightning

rayne is put together beautifly! the color, eyes and nose. it has always been my choice selection. i love her 100%


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## cEElint

Rayne is gorgeous!!!


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## Lua

Thanks a ton guys, most of the pits I see around here are "Blue nose pitbulls." Sold by the many fantastic BYB's we have scattered about. So there is very few people who even acknowledge her existence. LOL


----------



## k8nkane

I posted pics of Kane way back when he was ~10 months old and didn't get a response (mostly because you were really busy at the time Lisa). Now that he's 18 months, if I were to post new stacked pics would there be a noticeable difference between now and then?


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## performanceknls

Sorry I must of missed it. post the pictures you already have and if you want to take more now I cn look at those too.


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## Shoshana

I think Miss Peanut exemplifies more faults than good things, but she is a fast runner, even faster cornering and swims like an otter!




























lol


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## performanceknls

Shoshana said:


> I think Miss Peanut exemplifies more faults than good things, but she is a fast runner, even faster cornering and swims like an otter!


Very pretty! Her top line could be better and a lower tail set and more angulation in the rear but over all pretty girl!

function follows form and I have several working dogs who may not fit the standard perfect but are the most athletic dogs I know. Vixen has a terribly high tail set and you hear some ppl say that will effect how they push from the rear but that has never stopped her in agility where she is ranked #1 in her breed still at age 11. So while it may not be "correct" according to the standard to me functions comes first. I have seen many correct show dogs that did not function well.


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## Shoshana

Thank you!

I knew her tail was set high. She rarely has it hang down it's almost always up! She can put it down, she does when she eats. She even keeps it out of the water when she swims. She is the only dog I know who swims with her butt so high. But she is fast in the water so I guess it helps.

She is long for her height but it helps her corner and makes her more flexible when she runs.

As far as her topline sometimes I think her front is shorter than her rear, but then sometimes I think I'm wrong! lol Again, thank you!


----------



## aus_staffy

performanceknls said:


> Very pretty! Her top line could be better and a lower tail set and more angulation in the rear but over all pretty girl!
> 
> *function follows form* and I have several working dogs who may not fit the standard perfect but are the most athletic dogs I know. Vixen has a terribly high tail set and you hear some ppl say that will effect how they push from the rear but that has never stopped her in agility where she is ranked #1 in her breed still at age 11. So while it may not be "correct" according to the standard to me functions comes first. I have seen many correct show dogs that did not function well.


:goodpost: Exactly what I thought when I looked at this girl. She looks like she's functional. Very pretty little girl, Shoshana!


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## Loke-a-doke

Loki at 16 months, 49 lbs. he's probably not perfectly stacked, sorry!


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## performanceknls

Shoshana said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I knew her tail was set high. She rarely has it hang down it's almost always up! She can put it down, she does when she eats. She even keeps it out of the water when she swims. She is the only dog I know who swims with her butt so high. But she is fast in the water so I guess it helps.
> 
> She is long for her height but it helps her corner and makes her more flexible when she runs.
> 
> As far as her topline sometimes I think her front is shorter than her rear, but then sometimes I think I'm wrong! lol Again, thank you!


I like longer back dogs they can turn better  her top line is too flat in that first picture, like a table top and it should have more slope but that is also because the tail set is high. It is all connected.



Loke-a-doke said:


> Loki at 16 months, 49 lbs. he's probably not perfectly stacked, sorry!


His head throws me off a bit, too long in the muzzle and narrow. Tail set a little high, chest a little shallow but over he is a cutie!


----------



## gregz

what are her pros of her being a pitbull? and any other faults? thankss


----------



## Loke-a-doke

performanceknls said:


> His head throws me off a bit, too long in the muzzle and narrow. Tail set a little high, chest a little shallow but over he is a cutie!


Thanks! His head throws everyone off a little bit  haha. He's definitely a mix, I've always thought he had a little pointer in him, a lot of people say boxer or whippet. I don't care, he's just the cutest darn thing to me


----------



## performanceknls

gregz said:


> what are her pros of her being a pitbull? and any other faults? thankss


I think I already went over this dog in another thread.



Loke-a-doke said:


> Thanks! His head throws everyone off a little bit  haha. He's definitely a mix, I've always thought he had a little pointer in him, a lot of people say boxer or whippet. I don't care, he's just the cutest darn thing to me


He is a doll! and that tail is really long too!


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## doggy071111

All very nice looking pitbulls! Once I get my puppy next week, I'll be sure to post photos! Name Ideas?


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## cEElint

doggy071111 said:


> Name Ideas?


not here, create another thread for it


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## duckyp0o77

im not the best picture taker preparer lol ive posted her in this thread before a loooooong time ago but these pics may be a lil better than the last.

My angle is not good here









Her angle is not good here


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## performanceknls

duckyp0o77 said:


> im not the best picture taker preparer lol ive posted her in this thread before a loooooong time ago but these pics may be a lil better than the last.
> 
> My angle is not good here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her angle is not good here


Nice! from the pictures I do not see anything really stand out as a fault. The chest looks a little shallow but the angles I cannot tell for sure. Pretty dog


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## duckyp0o77

thanks. the first pic the camera was @ wrong angle & second she wasnt stacked properly, obviously. to me she looks sorta hunched up. those were spur of the moment pics. when i think about it i will try to get better ones.


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## performanceknls

In the first pictures she was over stacked in the second she was perfect. When you stack a dog you want the hocks and the ground to come to a 90 degree angle. Your top line looks good in the second picture and she has a nice lower tail set. That where you get the back with a little bit of a arch to it. You do not want the back flat that means the tail is coming off he back of the dog and is very high, you also lack length of hip if that tail set is high and the topline is flat.


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## IzzosMommy

I know her front is terrible .. but its the best pic I can get .. I would like to see what is right and wrong with her .. =]


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## performanceknls

too much extra skin under the neck but overall pretty dog. The picture is kind of small and she is a little chunky so it's harder to see all the dog but nothing really jumps out as a huge fault other than the neck.


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## IzzosMommy

performanceknls said:


> too much extra skin under the neck but overall pretty dog. The picture is kind of small and she is a little chunky so it's harder to see all the dog but nothing really jumps out as a huge fault other than the neck.


yea I cant get her underthat weight .. lol shes a bully but a coreect one Im pretty sure lol .. Thank you =]


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## ant0nis

Hello guys.Im new to the forum so i read a lot curently.I start reading this topic 2 hours ago and couldn t stop.It was an over dose of reading and pit knowledge.Thank you for this fantastic topic realy nice job.I think in this topic can found every single examples for minor faults to big ones.
Very nice dogs,i think some if they were more athletic it would look much better.
Next month ill have my boy,i cant wait to post some pics.
excuse my english.
Greetings from greece


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## stonerreakinhavok

idk why one of the pics seems lighter but any who can some one tell me his faults?


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## performanceknls

How that collar working? looks good on him 

His faults besides being chunky? lol i would like more angulation in the shoulders and his upper arm looks short. Also I am not a fan of his head but not really a fault. I think it might be how he is standing because I have seen other pictures and he looks fine.


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## stonerreakinhavok

lol collars working awesome, we put it on every walk and havent really had to use it since the first time we used it. his position was more of my fault. i thought it'd showed his legs muscles more. i'd like to see more more of the muscle on his ribs personally when i met him he was 1 1/2 and he was lean and i liked it, now hes 2 and change and filled out a bit i gotta start working him again.


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## Sucker For A Rednose

I would LOVE to get some honest opinions on my boy,O'Malley.
He is rearing up on 18 months and I think he needs to cut some weight,Right now he is weighing in at 57lbs. I think that with more jogs and flirt he should round down to about 45-50.


----------



## Hyde

Nothing wrong with that dog. 57 isn't overweight. The ship isn't sinking in regards to him. If he tops 70, then you may worry. Simply appears thick boned. Well built. Don't see the ribs, so if you want more definition in body, get a food with less fat. Hard to tell by pic. But he isn't overweight.


----------



## Sucker For A Rednose

I am going to stack him today & try to get some shots. Thanks, I guess I should more-so say I want more definition. He is currently seeding on Evo. I also give him fresh fruits and veggies daily in the morning, He loves to eat watermelon and heads of lettuce. I never worked him too hard because I like waiting for the muscles to fully mature. He has a naturally semi lean build which I love. But more definition is desired. What do you think of his head structure,chest set,ect?

The more opinions the better, & honesty is saught after


----------



## Hyde

Well, again it hard to tell by pic, but for his chest, looks like his chest should be a little deeper. That is, it's good if it drops down to his "elbows." And as for head, Can't tell from pic, but it appears he has an undershot jaw. Unless it just the way he holding his lips. btw, that good of you noy to work him too hard, when muscles aren't fully mature. With these dogs, their pain tolerence can hide an injury that would be obvious in another breed. And an unknown injury can become a serious injury later on, that can't be fixed. Remember, if you don't plan to show him, it's not good to keep him in a conditioned form for a long period. But he looks good for health and body. Has a nice coat. Ears are well placed. Also remember not to take the dog food recommendation as for feeding. The level of activity will determine his appetite. More work, more eat. Good luck.


----------



## Sucker For A Rednose

Thanks Hyde, 
No,He isn't a show dog because he does in fact have a under shot jaw.  I am going to get some better pictures of his stacking,ect. today as for we are going for a hour hike in the woods today so I will be sure to post them later in the day. I don't want to condition him to a show point but would like more muscle definition now that he is at the proper age to work. Plus I think he will enjoy it, he has a very high drive. Currently he gets a rotation on his diet but this is how it goes.

Mon/Wed/Fri/Sun: two cups evo at 6am,1.5 cups evo at 6pm
Tues/Thurs/Sat: Head of lettuce at 12 noon, 3 cups evo 6pm

He also loves watermelon and green pepper.


----------



## Sucker For A Rednose

Here is some pics from our nice hike in the woods. I live directly in front of here and makes a great area for jogging/running and off leash training.  I tried to get different angles for you.









He didn't want to stay still for this shot because I set his kong on a stump ahead,lol




























:woof:


----------



## zohawn

Hyde said:


> Nothing wrong with that dog. 57 isn't overweight. The ship isn't sinking in regards to him. If he tops 70, then you may worry. Simply appears thick boned. Well built. Don't see the ribs, so if you want more definition in body, *get a food with less fat*. Hard to tell by pic. But he isn't overweight.


its less carbs more fat

and sucker, your dog looks like it has boxer in him


----------



## Hyde

zohawn said:


> its less carbs more fat


If dog is less active then it will use more fat. Higher activity as was stated will allow more carbs to be burn. But a dog with proper exercise or activity needs no special diet. Weight will maintain itself naturally. Complex topic, it better to keep it simple. Both fat and carbs are needed. But active dogs require more carbs. An underweight dog can use more fat. But it better to cut down than build up.


----------



## stonerreakinhavok

more protien less carbs and less fat... prey model diet the dog doesnt really eat carbs main focus is on the meat, you feed a leaner diet you dog will start burning fat that it may or may not have on it.


----------



## Hyde

Now there's three opinions, somethin those new on this subject don't need. All I can say is to each they own. Sucker For A Red Nose, you'll get a different answer from all you ask. Every cook has his or her own recipe. But at the end of the day, all that matters are the results. It it don't work, fix it. If it works for you, no need to change it. Since you simply want to keep your dog in good shape and not show, maintain a steady diet and don't be afraid to add more food if dog is still hungry. And when you work your dog, never do it for a good hour after a meal.


----------



## Sucker For A Rednose

Thanks all for your feeding comments. That isn't really what I was reaching for,lol. I don't plan on changing his diet as for he LOVES the food,it works well,and he is overall extremely healthy. 

As far as him being mixed--Negative.
He has a under bite which gives him a pouty lip and people seem to focus on that when calling him a pit/boxer mix. I bought from a very good breeder and seen the parents first hand, no boxer in them at all. Malley is flawed in his bite,yes. But no,not a mix. (not that I have anything against mutts)

I have full papers on him and often get questioned on why I got him fixed because he truly is a gorgeous dog BUT I give the same answer to every person;
If I was a uneducated person looking to become a BYB then sure, I would use him to stud. BUT facing facts as much as I love him and his temperment is saught after he IS indeed flawed and I do not want to reproduce more flawed puppies when there is millions of pits in shelters with/without flaws. 

My main reason for posting his body pictures was to get opinions on his body structure and overall build,where should I change and beside his apparent under bite and lack thereof a proper bite pattern what are his flaws? Anything major standing out as pros? Hyde gave me some very good opinions and I was just interested in what others thought as well.


----------



## HeavyJeep

A few shots I hope are good enough 

I am wondering what faults he has?


----------



## Hyde

Sucker For A Rednose said:


> Thanks all for your feeding comments. That isn't really what I was reaching for,lol. I don't plan on changing his diet as for he LOVES the food,it works well,and he is overall extremely healthy.
> 
> As far as him being mixed--Negative.
> He has a under bite which gives him a pouty lip and people seem to focus on that when calling him a pit/boxer mix. I bought from a very good breeder and seen the parents first hand, no boxer in them at all. Malley is flawed in his bite,yes. But no,not a mix. (not that I have anything against mutts)
> 
> I have full papers on him and often get questioned on why I got him fixed because he truly is a gorgeous dog BUT I give the same answer to every person;
> If I was a uneducated person looking to become a BYB then sure, I would use him to stud. BUT facing facts as much as I love him and his temperment is saught after he IS indeed flawed and I do not want to reproduce more flawed puppies when there is millions of pits in shelters with/without flaws.
> 
> My main reason for posting his body pictures was to get opinions on his body structure and overall build,where should I change and beside his apparent under bite and lack thereof a proper bite pattern what are his flaws? Anything major standing out as pros? Hyde gave me some very good opinions and I was just interested in what others thought as well.


I must say, if there were more responsible owners like you among those with APBT's, the breed would benefit greatly! His undershot jaw is due to poor selection by the breeder. But you fixed him, so he won't pass on any of that into another litter. You can now enjoy him yourself, and you know what you have. Good decision you made.


----------



## Hyde

HeavyJeep said:


> A few shots I hope are good enough
> 
> I am wondering what faults he has.


Boy, that bottom photo reminds me of a bit of a dog named, yep, Jeep, from years ago. I see no faults to point out. But I ain't no dog judge.


----------



## aus_staffy

Hyde said:


> *Boy, that bottom photo reminds me of a bit of a dog named, yep, Jeep, from years ago*. I see no faults to point out. But I ain't no dog judge.


You're not kidding!


----------



## Sucker For A Rednose

Hyde said:


> I must say, if there were more responsible owners like you among those with APBT's, the breed would benefit greatly! His undershot jaw is due to poor selection by the breeder. But you fixed him, so he won't pass on any of that into another litter. You can now enjoy him yourself, and you know what you have. Good decision you made.


Thanks Hyde; I don't think it was the breeders fault. I got to see the parents and grandparents and all had perfect bites. He was just a fluke, only puppy with a bad bite. BUT he was the one who chose me and so he came home with me. He also got fixed at 5 months.  I don't regret taking him by any means,though. He is amazing all around and I wouldn't let him go for ANY amount of money. 

I would love to eventually start my own kennel of OFRN,
But that will be WAY down the line once I get out of nursing school. I feel like there isn't enough of the classic OFRN around anymore and it saddens me greatly.

BTW: I agree about the "Jeep" dog, I see no flaws. He is a well conditioned dog with a nice posture and head. Gorgeous example of a APBT.


----------



## performanceknls

Sucker For A Rednose said:


> Here is some pics from our nice hike in the woods. I live directly in front of here and makes a great area for jogging/running and off leash training.  I tried to get different angles for you.
> :woof:


Well besides the obvious underbite 

The chest could be deeper and more fore chest but the shoulders look nice from what I can see. good rear tail set could be lower but the pictures it is a little hard to tell. The underbite is there but the muzzle is snippy meaning too narrow and he lacks under jaw. cute dog though I love his little ears


----------



## performanceknls

HeavyJeep said:


> A few shots I hope are good enough
> 
> I am wondering what faults he has?
> 
> ]


UGH I hate that tail set! What a great looking dog till you get to the rear end and that tail, also lacks length of hip. Look at the topline of the dog and how straight that is because the tail comes right off the back instead of lower down. When the tail is that high it throws the rear end off. That last picture makes it look really bad. He could also use more depth in chest, you need a good deep chest to breath while working.
I really love that dog just the tail kills me


----------



## HeavyJeep

She was up here before, but was after a cold winter and she was fat 
I took her down a bit, and then it got crazy hot down here so I had to slack off a bit.. but.. maybe these photos will give a better look! lemme know!


----------



## performanceknls

I am not a fan of her head and her tail set could be better but nothing really pops put other than she is fattie  i would like to see her in shape and she what she has under that fat so hard to say for sure but with the litter coming and I am sure it will be a while before she is in shape.


----------



## HeavyJeep

performanceknls said:


> I am not a fan of her head and her tail set could be better but nothing really pops put other than she is fattie  i would like to see her in shape and she what she has under that fat so hard to say for sure but with the litter coming and I am sure it will be a while before she is in shape.


 Oh.. those werent of the mama  Those shots are of Kali.. 
This is the mama


----------



## performanceknls

HA the look similar.... I can't keep all your red dogs in order!  I am not a fan of the heads on your dogs but that is just personal preference. I am not one to talk about heads, Siren has a little tiny head lol


----------



## Sadie

Ok what about Little Lola


----------



## performanceknls

She looks great for a pup, nice chest, good angulation in shoulders and rear, can't tell on the tail set, great feet for a gamebred pup. A lot of them can get a little flat footed.


----------



## HappyPuppy

I'm really enjoying this analysis - it soo helps to have pics!! Can someone briefly explain/show a pic of short upper arm vs good upper arm length? My girl apparently has short upper arms and I'm curoius what 'good' is supposed to look like... (?)


----------



## Celestial88

One of Alice.... excuse the pink please, it was one of those "I think I'll leave my Pajamas on" days. lol It was really hot outside so I tried to just do a short one and not stay out too long. I dislike Nor Cal heat 
I love rubbing her ears, they're so soft :3


----------



## performanceknls

HappyPuppy said:


> I'm really enjoying this analysis - it soo helps to have pics!! Can someone briefly explain/show a pic of short upper arm vs good upper arm length? My girl apparently has short upper arms and I'm curoius what 'good' is supposed to look like... (?)


I am guessing you are talking about this dog right? it does not look as bad in this picture it might have just been the picture you posted that looked short in the upper arm. So look above the elbow, that bone above the elbow is what what we are looking at when we say length in upper arm. I your dog it does look shorter than other APBT's. AST's have this problem a lot and you can tell some dogs who are pitterstaffs or AST by looking at some of these traits. Now you can have an APBT with a short upper arm but is very common in AST's.










This dog is one of mine and you can see how much longer it is.









Her is another great dog that it really shows great upper arm and over all structure.


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## performanceknls

Celestial88 said:


> One of Alice.... excuse the pink please, it was one of those "I think I'll leave my Pajamas on" days. lol It was really hot outside so I tried to just do a short one and not stay out too long. I dislike Nor Cal heat
> I love rubbing her ears, they're so soft :3


Hard to tell from that picture it is dark where I need to see, she also is a little chunky and it is harder to see what is underneath. Could use more angulation in the rear, the back looks sway back but that could be how she is standing, need better pictures.


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## Celestial88

I'll try to get some when it cools down, and yes she is chunky. (Glad someone else noticed because everyone was telling me I'm crazy when I said that lol!) I just got my blood sugar more evened out so I can get more active with her, it was low before and the doctor said not to do much activity. -_- Which I despise. lol Her front is a bit off too.


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## HeavyJeep

dude...lisa... who is that dog on the bottom???


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## Mach0

HeavyJeep said:


> dude...lisa... who is that dog on the bottom???


Ch Angus. If I'm not mistaken- the owner is on the forum. I think her username is scratchin dog.


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## HeavyJeep

Mach0 said:


> Ch Angus. If I'm not mistaken- the owner is on the forum. I think her username is scratchin dog.


Thats one good lookin boy man..

I cant figure out what to do to get that muscle plate over the ribs and back to pop out of my boy.. what are the tricks??


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## HeavyJeep

Sadie said:


> Ok what about Little Lola


sadie... little lola is a beauty!! and theres a beauty behind her too


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## Mach0

HeavyJeep said:


> Thats one good lookin boy man..
> 
> I cant figure out what to do to get that muscle plate over the ribs and back to pop out of my boy.. what are the tricks??


I don't wantto flood this thread. It's meant for structure photos and critiquing lol. I will pm you.


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## Sadie

HeavyJeep said:


> Thats one good lookin boy man..
> 
> I cant figure out what to do to get that muscle plate over the ribs and back to pop out of my boy.. what are the tricks??


That is Dawn's CH/GRCH Angus he's and AADR GRCH and an ADBA CH and Yes that Boy is seriously gorgeous she works very hard with him.

Here is another pic of him

Perfection Doesn't get any better than this

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [176780] :: GATE CRASHER (aka ANGUS)


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## dixieland

Very gorgeous dog.I want a dog that looks like that one day.Ohhh I can't wait!!:clap:


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## bwhiting1986

Nino... He's about 1yr here...


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## performanceknls

HeavyJeep said:


> Thats one good lookin boy man..
> 
> I cant figure out what to do to get that muscle plate over the ribs and back to pop out of my boy.. what are the tricks??


A lot is Genetics!



Sadie said:


> That is Dawn's CH/GRCH Angus he's and AADR GRCH and an ADBA CH and Yes that Boy is seriously gorgeous she works very hard with him.
> 
> Here is another pic of him
> 
> Perfection Doesn't get any better than this
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [176780] :: GATE CRASHER (aka ANGUS)


Soooooo pretty!!


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## performanceknls

bwhiting1986 said:


> Nino... He's about 1yr here...


Tail set is a little high and he also looks long in the back but pretty boy overall.


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## performanceknls

BTW I have to say I am the worst when it comes to looking at dogs who are long, I was told by several judges that Barca is long in the back a little and for the life of me I can't see it! lol


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## Celestial88

If this picture doesn't work I can get another  I agree that she could use more angulation but I don't have an eye for much other things


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## angelbaby

I know he is young and I do know of some faults on him and some of his strenghts but would like to hear what someone else thinks of him and what they see. I do know he has alot of growing still so things can change a bit. { if these wont work let me know i can take some better stacked pics tomorrow if its nice out}

























EDIT: I did resize , just taking a bit i guess


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## I<3MyPitties

*my turn!!*

OH do mine!!! Please!!!








Gambit at 2yr old








This is him at 1yr

I'll get more pics tomorrow.


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## performanceknls

angelbaby said:


> I know he is young and I do know of some faults on him and some of his strenghts but would like to hear what someone else thinks of him and what they see. I do know he has alot of growing still so things can change a bit. { if these wont work let me know i can take some better stacked pics tomorrow if its nice out}
> 
> EDIT: I did resize , just taking a bit i guess


Can you post him in the bully section? I have no clue where to start with a bully I do not know the breed standard but there is a thread like this in the bully section. thanks


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## performanceknls

Celestial88 said:


> If this picture doesn't work I can get another  I agree that she could use more angulation but I don't have an eye for much other things


She is not full apbt and it is hard to compare her to the standard since you can see somthing else in there. Also her rear is closer and than her front iand it makes it hard to tell stucture.



I<3MyPitties said:


> OH do mine!!! Please!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gambit at 2yr old
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is him at 1yr
> 
> I'll get more pics tomorrow.


Too much lip, it is hard to tell from the picture but he looks shallow in the chest and straight in the shoulder but better pictures would help.


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## taylortech

*My 10 Month Old*

Let me know what you think. Sorry for the pic size!!


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## gmc

These are not great photos, and he may be mixed, but what can you guys tell me? Thanks


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## gmc

I forgot to mention, about 8 months in the above picture. thanks


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## gmc

Any comments? Don't be afraid to hurt our feelings.......


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## American_Pit13

Lisa does this thread and doesn't get on here to it everyday. You will have to wait for either her or another who looks through to respond.


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## aus_staffy

gmc said:


> I forgot to mention, about 8 months in the above picture. thanks





gmc said:


> Any comments? Don't be afraid to hurt our feelings.......


He does look to have a very long back. If he's mixed I guess it really doesn't matter. Looks like a nice dog, though.


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## Natawnie

Here's my girl Alli in her natural stack.


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## Celestial88

A shelter dog from work


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## performanceknls

taylortech said:


> Let me know what you think. Sorry for the pic size!!


I need a better picture but it looks a little bit bully and the stiffles look realy staight but again a better picture would help. thanks



gmc said:


> These are not great photos, and he may be mixed, but what can you guys tell me? Thanks


Long in the back and better pictures will really help. Good angulation in the rear.

If you want to know how to take pictures please see the first page of this thread. Thanks


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## performanceknls

Natawnie said:


> Here's my girl Alli in her natural stack.


Hard to tell from that picture a better one will help thanks


Celestial88 said:


> A shelter dog from work


hard to say what shelter dogs are mixed with and that one looks mixed so I am not sure how to evaluate her. Pretty though!


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## 09lamro

@kg420 that dog look amazing the only thing i see is the flappy lips and the bite but all around amazing dog


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## Celestial88

Sorry I didn't reply sooner... my brain has been quite bad at remembering things as of late. Thank you anyway though. I was just wondering if there were any flaws that may hinder her in sports as I had a few folks inquire. What drove me nuts is the shelter had her as a German Shepherd mix because of her coloring. Awesome gal.


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## performanceknls

Celestial88 said:


> Sorry I didn't reply sooner... my brain has been quite bad at remembering things as of late. Thank you anyway though. I was just wondering if there were any flaws that may hinder her in sports as I had a few folks inquire. What drove me nuts is the shelter had her as a German Shepherd mix because of her coloring. Awesome gal.


her rear looks sound, nice angulation and tail set but I would have to look at movement for a working dog eval ya know. Movement is the key with any working dog. Some may look great till they start moving.


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## Celestial88

performanceknls said:


> her rear looks sound, nice angulation and tail set but I would have to look at movement for a working dog eval ya know. Movement is the key with any working dog. Some may look great till they start moving.


I was going to get a video because it popped into my mind, but she got adopted today by some nice older gals. Which is good, she's one of those that is great for first time owners, she can really keep up with you if you're athletic and loves to play, tug, and easy to train, but she's also amazing on leash and very polite. Her head cocking when you talk to her won them over (thankfully they're taking training classes at the shelter)


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## Black Rabbit

09lamro said:


> @kg420 that dog look amazing the only thing i see is the flappy lips and the bite but all around amazing dog


Thank you  His lips always look so silly when he smiles  he looks a lot better when he keeps his mouth shut


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## pitlover17

I'm open to criticism. My baby isn't for show and I'll still love her even with her faults (I'm sure she has some). It's always fun to know things like this though. These are the best pictures I have right now. If these aren't clear enough I can get better ones in a couple weeks


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## American_Pit13

pitlover17 said:


> If these aren't clear enough I can get better ones in a couple weeks


It not about being clear you need properly stacked photos.
This would be a proper view of the side ( Negative the harness of course)








You can show your dogs front with no rear showing









Or with the rest of the body









Photos don't have to be identical to these but these are what you need to see to evaluate a picture of a dog.

This is not only directed at you many people have posted photos that can't be used to eval a dog.


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## pitlover17

:thumbsup: Ok thank you for the example photos. I'm digging through my photos of her now and don't have anything of her in one of those positions. I'll try and get one. Thanks again!


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## Black Rabbit

Here's a few new pics of Dosia for you too pick apart  I'm not very good at getting him stacked since he always likes too move but these are much better than the first ones.










his leg went a bit too far back in this one but the lighting is a bit better


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## pitlover17

I hope these are better than my last pictures. It's so difficult to get her to stay still and pose when you're the only one around. She's gained a couple pounds while she was living with my dad while I recouped from physical therapy so she's a little on the meaty side. She weighs 67 lbs


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## stixnix

I know this is an old thread but what do you think of my dog? Hes 17 inches tall and about 39lbs


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## Armando

Are these good? 
She's 16 inches 48 pounds.

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Armando

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## performanceknls

stixnix said:


> I know this is an old thread but what do you think of my dog? Hes 17 inches tall and about 39lbs


Tail sets a little high and could use more angulation in the rear but over all nice. I would say UKC standard. People ask what forechest is and your dog has great forechest. Nice and square and even a little short in the back but still good.


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## performanceknls

Armando said:


> View attachment 14305
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


I need better pictures to tell for sure but he looks really long in the back according to UKC or ADBA standard. The rest I really can't tell. better pictures would help.


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## stixnix

performanceknls said:


> Tail sets a little high and could use more angulation in the rear but over all nice. I would say UKC standard. People ask what forechest is and your dog has great forechest. Nice and square and even a little short in the back but still good.


Cool thanks, not too bad then for a shelter dog then 

When you say angulation do you mean muscle wise or his actual bone structure?


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## SteelRidgeKennels

Its the curve of the back leg from the butt to the hock....You don't want that to be straight.


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## stixnix

Oh okay thanks  i think thats a bad photo as hes not conditoned at all in this and his rear usually has got more angulation than it looks in some other pics, not that it matters since i can't show him


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## Armando

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## performanceknls

Can't see much from those pictures. Go to the first post of this thread and it shows what type of pictures I need. Thanks!


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## performanceknls

stixnix said:


> Oh okay thanks  i think thats a bad photo as hes not conditoned at all in this and his rear usually has got more angulation than it looks in some other pics, not that it matters since i can't show him


This can help too, I know there are some better ones out there I just need to find them.


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## ali-eve

Hey! This is my dog! He doesn't have pedigree...


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## Rudy4747

Ms.Eve he is a very handsome boy. If going by ADBA standard IMO he is a placing dog. The only things i see is he has a slightly high tail set and back end. AHis chest could be a bit deeper. And he may be a tad lippy but that is just knitt picking. All in all you step back and he is in a tight postured pose such as the onw on the chain their. That dog would do well He is good looking Thanks for sharing him!


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## ali-eve

Rudy4747 said:


> Ms.Eve he is a very handsome boy. If going by ADBA standard IMO he is a placing dog. The only things i see is he has a slightly high tail set and back end. AHis chest could be a bit deeper. And he may be a tad lippy but that is just knitt picking. All in all you step back and he is in a tight postured pose such as the onw on the chain their. That dog would do well He is good looking Thanks for sharing him!


Thank you so much for the feedback!!  could you just explain to me what tad lippy mean? (I'm sorry, english is my second language)


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## Rudy4747

the way his lips sag down around the corners of the mouth, Head is worth little points so the mouth even less thats why I said it is nit picking lol!


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## ali-eve

AHAHA thank you


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## Steinlin

Mr Greenwood developed the ADBA standard by taking the pics of top Ch & Gr Ch's and then sat down with a number of the top dogmen of the day. They looked at what all these dogs had in common and averaged out a standard.
It is very hard to place a standard that applies to all dogs(and that wasn't the goal)it was just to have some sort of guideline to follow, based on the structural similarities that some of the best had in common. An overall view is looked at, which brings together a myriad of structural types and in turn reverts back to "structural integrity will show in the performance"










What some look at as a fault or a deficit, others look at as a small piece of the whole pie, that can be enhanced or compensated for with work. I am NOT, however, speaking of deformatie


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