# Pit bull discrimination



## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

*Got Simba in the cage, put his bed in there and a few chew toys and went to the lake. I was gonna take him to the doggy park but came across pit bull brick wall. Im not sure if it's all of Broward but Sunrise has an ordinance for pit bulls and they cant be in the dog park without a muzzle or leash. This law was signed in 1989 and I think it's discrimination. These dogs were once called nanny dogs for their gentleness with kids. The media and bad irresponsible owners has really gave pits a bad rep.Even though he's just a puppy I was so upset that I decided to not go there. We decided to park the Ex by the lake and have some play time. Had to watch out for alligators but only saw a large wild iguana. *


























































































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## Wildhorse22 (Dec 30, 2011)

Welcome to the unfair world of owning a "pitbull"! There will be harsh signs, bsl bs, rude comments ect. being thrown at you because you own a aggressive breed so to say. Its tough to bite your tongue and keep your head up but all of us have had to do it at some point. All the advice I can give for now is; stay far far away from dog parks! Their is ignorant owners & dogs with no manners! You owe it to your new pup to not put him in that out of control enviorment. Think of it in the positive light... You and your pup are too good to go there. There is plently of safe places to take him that you both can have a great time. Other than that, get him enrolled in puppy classes to socialize, start obidience training and always create a positive enviorment for him. 
In my town, law is not quite BSL YET, but pitbulls must be on a 6" leash (ya, where do you buy one of thos? Haha), have a muzzle and if not in the house, must be inside a kennel inside a privacy fence, be microchipped, and spayed or neutered ect. So your not alone on the discrimination part; might as well be jail! But I do what I gotta do to keep my family together; along with making sure my babies are the most well behaved dogs in my whole town and constently rubbing it in to the haters every darn chance I get! Ha!
All in all, its a tough road but the kisses and lovins are the highlight of my life!


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I think its a great rule. Type in dog park in the search bar at the top , tons to read on here about it. fact is this breed is known to be DA at some time in there life its in there genes and should be expected. Its when people who think they can "train this out of them" or "cure " them of this characturistic known to this breed where we run into problems. Those people thinking there dog would never start anything { they dont always have to be the dog who starts it but if they end it who do you think will be blamed?, and all our dogs have the capability to end things quick}. Then our breed looks bad yet again , because that owner chose to ignore a key part of this breed and put there dog in a situation to fail. I always say dont set your dog up to fail and they wont. Im against dog parks all together , health issues, fight issues, other stupid owner issues its not good all around. Socializing your dog has nothing to do with other dogs, its new places, new surroundings, new people thats what you should focus socializing around. If you have a friend with a suitable dog to play with do private play dates where its alot more controlled and you know the other owners . Alot of dog park people go and then start yapping away and dont even pay attention to what there dog is doing and miss warning signs that ar ehappening right infront of them. Wish every dog park had that rule,would help us as a community against the irresponsible owners who think there "pit bull" is so much different then the rest of them.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Wildhorse22 said:


> In my town, law is not quite BSL YET, but pitbulls must be on a 6" leash (ya, where do you buy one of thos? Haha), have a muzzle and if not in the house, must be inside a kennel inside a privacy fence, be microchipped, and spayed or neutered ect.


How is that not BSL?? If you HAVE to do those things in order to have a pit bull type dog, that's BSL. I don't have to do any of that with Kane for the area I live in.

Good tips on socialization, though.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

angelbaby said:


> *Socializing your dog has nothing to do with other dogs, its new places, new surroundings, new people thats what you should focus socializing around.* If you have a friend with a suitable dog to play with do private play dates where its alot more controlled and you know the other owners .


This is where I'm going to disagree. I think it's important to socialize your dog to other dogs as it builds valuable communication skills and manners, that way you can walk your dog on the street or go into Petsmart and not have them go ballistic at the sight of another dog because they've never met a dog that looks like that. Unlike what I did though, thinking I could keep socializing Kane to strange dogs throughout his life, I think it's best to keep the strange dog socializing to a minimum once your dog is older than 8-9 months. During that time, they've already built the communication skills and manners they'll need for the rest of their life and at that point, it's best to have them playing with dogs they're familiar with and/or are owned by people you know.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

see I disagree with socializing with strange dogs all together, with my experiences and having Strange dogs attack us who the owners said are friendly, things like that to me arent worth the risk at all. Im sure if you had to sit while they stitched your 4 month old pup you might have a different view on it. People and dogs you know I say are fine as long as supervised. If you train your dog properly and learn how to have them focus on you , you wont have the issue of them flipping out inthe store if they see another dog , thats a training issue not socializing issue IMO.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

It wouldn't have to be a training issue if you socialized the potential issue first.

But you're right. We're coming from two different places here.


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## rodrigo (Jun 28, 2011)

i see both points of views as i am debating cutting parks out of Samson s routine.......

there is always a guaranteed safety when u take no risks and that is angelbaby's perspective which i must admit has its logic.

but i have to believe the same way an APBT is not bred for fighting anymore so therefore the aggressive ones arent the sire s on most reputable breeders right??? so why cant be expect the breed to evolve into a more docile dog towards other same sex dogs eventually? and if so...when do we test this eventually?? when the apbt is out of the spotlight and people find another bad dog of the new era ??? like dobermans, german shepards and now pitbulls... discussing this opens minds on both sides so i am all for listening always.

good friday to all....tomorrow is end of the year yay!!!


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

The problem with genetics is that once you breed something in, it's hard to breed it back out, especially after hundreds of generations. Especially something like dog aggression, which we know has a genetic component but that we haven't been able to isolate to one solitary genetic factor but instead probably a combination of them.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

rodrigo said:


> i see both points of views as i am debating cutting parks out of Samson s routine.......
> 
> there is always a guaranteed safety when u take no risks and that is angelbaby's perspective which i must admit has its logic.
> 
> ...


the only thing with that is how long will it take to breed that trait out? I dont think it can be. Although there are some who dont have DA at all , however how do you tell when it can pop up at any age? You can say at 2 you have never seen any sign and the dog isnt DA at all ,then at 5 it pops up. There is always a 1st for everything, I had dogs live happily together every day for over a year then 1 day it changed, do you want to take the chance that the 1 day it changes is in the dog park with some strangers dog ? Kinda sets the breed as a whole up to fail, they then turn around and go to the media about the vicious pit bull attack ect ect. All it takes is 1 time and there goes your dog , they take him and you never see him again, worth the risk to you? Sure isnt to me. Like I said there are some who never show DA in there life and those owners should be thankful they never have to worry about it, but when it can pop up at any age I think alot of people form this false sense of security. I know I had one , Had my girls all get along thought nothing of it , I took proper measures with my males i knew what they were capable of but my girls? nah they are sweet and love eachother. WRONG. I got a huge wake up call very recently, this after being together problem free for over a year. cost me $2400. I havent mentioned it on here really before ,but I just hope others with young dogs are aware of this issue that can come up and they dont have to find out the hard way. Im lucky what happened went down on my yard and not in some public dog park with witnesses and someone elses dog the victim. Really think it through and decide for yourself if its worth the risk , 1 time is all it takes. Not saying dont take to the park but there are other places to go other then the dog park , go to the lake or go hiking, or on trails or just a people park . If you have enclosed baseball diamonds or lacross rings or tennis courts go when they arent being used and play off leash in there alone , there are always options.


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## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

angelbaby said:


> the only thing with that is how long will it take to breed that trait out? I dont think it can be. Although there are some who dont have DA at all , however how do you tell when it can pop up at any age? You can say at 2 you have never seen any sign and the dog isnt DA at all ,then at 5 it pops up. There is always a 1st for everything, I had dogs live happily together every day for over a year then 1 day it changed, do you want to take the chance that the 1 day it changes is in the dog park with some strangers dog ? Kinda sets the breed as a whole up to fail, they then turn around and go to the media about the vicious pit bull attack ect ect. All it takes is 1 time and there goes your dog , they take him and you never see him again, worth the risk to you? Sure isnt to me. Like I said there are some who never show DA in there life and those owners should be thankful they never have to worry about it, but when it can pop up at any age I think alot of people form this false sense of security. I know I had one , Had my girls all get along thought nothing of it , I took proper measures with my males i knew what they were capable of but my girls? nah they are sweet and love eachother. WRONG. I got a huge wake up call very recently, this after being together problem free for over a year. cost me $2400. I havent mentioned it on here really before ,but I just hope others with young dogs are aware of this issue that can come up and they dont have to find out the hard way. Im lucky what happened went down on my yard and not in some public dog park with witnesses and someone elses dog the victim. Really think it through and decide for yourself if its worth the risk , 1 time is all it takes. Not saying dont take to the park but there are other places to go other then the dog park , go to the lake or go hiking, or on trails or just a people park . If you have enclosed baseball diamonds or lacross rings or tennis courts go when they arent being used and play off leash in there alone , there are always options.


:goodpost:
I can't give you any more rep until I spread the love. LOL!


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

Im sorry but I have to disagree with those who say that these dogs should be treated like wild killing animals. Not every dog is the same. The dog is only as social as the owner makes him. The best example of a dog that looks like a killing machine but will prove anybody wrong with his calm attitude under any circumstance is the great Daddy, Cesar's pit bull that past away. Perfect example of owner molding his dog. To me not all dogs are the same. I've seen chiwawas behave worst then most pit bulls. We are in 2012 people, The days of the killer pit bull are over. The pit bull is as aggressive as the owner lets him be. If your dog cant behave at the park don't blame it on the breed, blame it on your lack of effort to make him social. 

Some owners have these dogs and although they don't keep them in a backyard chained and hanging weights from their necks, but they go around acting as if the dog should be feared. Why? What's going on here? This was the first dog at the white house, this was the famous Petey in the movie the little rascals. How is it that in a dogfight they tear each other up and bite chunks off each other yet they don't bite the handlers? 

I would love for my dog to be judged individually, not by others irresponsibility. If you treat your dog like he's gonna attack someone or another dog, more then likely he will.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Dog aggression has a genetic component. It's true there are some dogs that never display dog aggression. But to say that your dog is only dog aggressive because you didn't socialize it enough is false. There are some dogs you can socialize out the wazoo and they still will not like other dogs.

And, unfortunately, your dog will always be judged because of someone else's irresponsibility, simply because of the type of dog he is. It's a fact of life you have to acknowledge and come to terms with as an owner.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Simba said:


> How is it that in a dogfight they tear each other up and bite chunks off each other yet they don't bite the handlers?


Because Man Biters were not tolerated when creating the breed, that's why. Do you know any of the history of where and how this breed came to be? Human Aggression and Animal Aggression are extremely different in regards to this breed. When you hear of a pit bull that has attacked a human unprovoked, there is something wrong with that dog and it should not have been bred. HA and DA are NOT the same thing and should NEVER be compared. You can have the gentlest dog in the world and have a dog come at him the wrong way and its over. The only times I have been bite were from the other dogs who started with mine, never my own.

whoooooo hold up. who is saying to treat their dogs like wild killing animals? My dog is extremely dog aggressive, you think I am encouraging this?? You think I don't try to work with him every single day to keep it in check and let him know he is ok and doesn't need to worry. you know what messes that up? Irresponsible owners who allow their dogs off leash in public. Its not about treating my dog anyway. He met other dogs, owners who I KNOW and TRUST and who understand that dog aggression can pop at any time. By having multiple dogs come up to him and attack him while we were walking, he does not trust any dogs running up to him. I can't blame him. Its in his history of the breed, which I respect. Its not something he was taught or lack of socialization.

Owning this breed is NOT like owning every other breed of dog. They should and MUST be respected and treated like they were bred to be treated. Having your dog at a dog park is irresponsible and lazy. There are way better and responsible ways to socialize and exercise your dog. Take a look here and learn before you put your dog into a situation he has to defend himself and then your dog get blamed no matter who is at fault.

no one is saying not to let your dog interact with other dogs if he has not shown signs of being dog aggressive, we are saying you need to be smart or else you will wind up on the news saying "he never had an issue before I don't know what happened"

Fighting dogs in the states was only outlawed in the 70's. To think 30 -40 years is enough time to bred out of them what it took a hundred years to instill is just ridiculousness. Especially since you hear of people who STILL fight dogs illegally all the time on the news and what not. I in no way condone fighting dogs, but I respect that's where they came from, and you MUST if you own a bulldog as well!


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

No one here ever said these dogs are killing machines , they should never be human aggressive that isnt tolerable in any breed IMO. I agree with you on the chihuahua part they are some nasty lil dogs lol .
But I dont think you are getting the genetic make up of this breed DA is part of this breed whether you chose to accept it or not its there. I hopeyou dont ever have to deal with it but saying that its the handlers fault if there dog is DA shows your lack of experience and knowledge of this breed. Many on here who handle dogs for profession and have years upon years of experience with this breed have DA dogs, the way your saying it would be there fault ? I think laws against this breed in dog parks protect us as owners who care about this breed and how its portrayed in the medias eyes and the other owners at these parks from those owners like you who think there dog is special and dont carry the same genetic make up the rest of the breed carry. There are many threads on here about dog parks and the risks and reasons why its bad , would do alot of good to take a look through them. AGAIN this is not saying this breed are killing machines and should be feared by people cause if that were the case I wouldnt have them around my young kids. This is one minor downfall to this breed { nothing compared to some breeds} but there are alot more positives tomake up for this. Just think if you dont set your dog up to fail it wont , dog parks are a big FAIL IMO.
http://www.gopitbull.com/do-yourself/4269-so-your-thinking-about-dog-park.html
http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/41751-dog-park.html
http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/36349-pitbulls-dog-parks.html

And to note on the Cesear milan comment , although Im maybe one of the few on here that do like him and SOME of his techniques I think he offers a very false sense of security with his show and this breed. You dont get to see the hours, days, weeks he takes with some dogs its condensed into a short tv show he makes things look alot easier. You also dont always see the fights that have broken out on his yards with his own dogs and with ones he is training. I believe it showed one fight once but alot of them they dont air. He does have issues pop up that he has to address just as any of us with multiples do. Have you not seen him carry a break stick? if his pack never fights or he felt secure to think they never would why would he carry one?


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

OP, here are some great links to help you understand dog aggression in petbulls.

Dog Aggression in Pit Bulls | PitBulls

Dog/Dog Tolerance | BAD RAP

I would highly suggest you read what they have to say and take it to heart. If you notice, neither of those links say you can't have your dog around other dogs -- BUT they DO say that you have to be aware of your dog's tolerance level and the potential that it can change no matter how much socialization you give your dog as a puppy. Even the most minor changes in body language and your dog's responses to another dog is evidence that their tolerance may be changing.

My dog Kane has changed in his tolerance level as he's matured. I took him to the dog park all the time when he was a puppy and then to doggy daycare as well. He was socialized out the wazoo with other dogs, strange dogs, familiar dogs, every dog we saw. Around 14 months of age, I started noticing little things. He was still laid-back and easy-going with most dogs, but he started to get snippier earlier if another dog was rude to him. He would let the first couple of tackles or humps or barks in the face go, but if the other dog didn't listen to him telling them to knock it off or back off, that's when he would step it up again and I could tell that if they ignored his next warning, he would back up his warning with a physical telling off, such as snapping at them or what have you.

And this is normal for ANY dog as they reach maturity. Most dog's tolerances change as they get older. They don't need or want to be friends with every dog they meet; they tend to stick with the ones they already know. Just like when we were little kids and anyone could be our friend, as we grew up, we changed and came to expect that strangers would have a certain level of politeness and manners. If they don't, we treat them the same way as dogs--we give them "looks" or other warnings.

Now, at 2 years, Kane still loves to play with other dogs and is eager to greet them. But he does have a certain amount of dog intolerance insofar as his temper is shorter for rude dogs. BUT I realize that and can manage it by setting him up to play with dogs who know appropriate play styles. If I had my head in the sand and denied that he was aggressive to some dogs at all, then it could lead to an accident that would be MY fault and could lead to Kane's DEATH.

edit: I also wanted to point out that both of these websites say that MOST pit bulls have some level of dog aggression in them, even if it's not necessarily a dog that goes ballistic at the sight of another dog--like Kane who has a lower tolerance for rude dogs. That's still dog aggression.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Ah, welcome to the world of owning a Pit Bull type dog. I do not disagree with the dog park ban, I find dog parks to be great places for your dog to catch disease, get blamed for a fight it did not start or learn piss poor dog behavior.

One should not discount the fact that the breed was selectively bred for over a 100 years to fight other dogs. While it is true that dog/dog aggression is a trait that, genetically, is hard to fix (and harder to maintain) as it does nothing to further the survival of the dog, it is also true that it has been bred for and it will crop up. 

Dog parks are great places for negative socialization to play on the genetics in your pup. I believe in socialization to as many people, objects, places and dogs you can MANAGE as your pup matures, but the key here is MANAGE. You can NOT manage your dogs interactions in a dog park, there are too many variables. Stupid people, aggressive dogs. Do not set your pup up for failure. Instead, get him out and about, and preferably into training classes and small play dates, where you and the other dogs/pups owners can MANAGE the play.

Keeping your dog at home, afraid to go out, or on a chain, does just as much damage to the development of his dog/dog skills (and dog/world skills) so don't think I am saying that. Just be in control of what your pup experiences and make his interactions positive.

PS Bitches are the worst when it comes to fights.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> Dog aggression has a genetic component. It's true there are some dogs that never display dog aggression. But to say that your dog is only dog aggressive because you didn't socialize it enough is false. There are some dogs you can socialize out the wazoo and they still will not like other dogs.
> 
> And, unfortunately, your dog will always be judged because of someone else's irresponsibility, simply because of the type of dog he is. It's a fact of life you have to acknowledge and come to terms with as an owner.


When you say your dog is naturally aggressive because of genetics, you already threw all the good qualities this dog's genetics posses. Someone up there mentioned if I knew the history of the breed, yes I do. I also know that they were the first choice in american homes in the 19th century. I know the story of a dog named stubby who helped our military in ww1. I haven't heard of one science report that says that the pit bull breed has more aggression then any other breed in the world. Until someone shows me that report. I will continue to fight for my dogs right to be treated equal to every other breed out there.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

HUMAN aggression and DOG aggression are not two sides of the same coin. "Pit bull" breeds are, by nature, dog aggressive due to hundreds of years of breeding for fighting in the pit, hence the name, American PIT bull terrier. 

When it comes to pit bulls, aggression cannot be viewed as all encompassing. No one is saying that DA makes our dogs monsters, or killing machines, but you have to understand that to own any of the "pit bull" type dogs you cannot go in thinking that your dog is just like any other dog. That right there is the problem and a huge mistake.

There is a reason that pit bull rescue organizations, shelters and any other group well versed in the pill bull nature will recommend that pit bulls should be the only dog in a household or with a compatible dog of the opposite sex. 

In the same way you cannot get a herding breed to stop herding no matter how many generations removed they are from an actual herd of sheep, and you cannot get a terrier to stop digging and burrowing and you cannot get a pointer to stop pointing even though it may spend its life on a couch. Those who truly appreciate the APBT understand that the good characteristics: extreme loyalty, eagerness to please, eagerness to work, etc come hand in hand with the "bad": dog aggression. We accept it and respect it. All the breed's traits combined are what make up our breed of choice and to change one part would be to change the whole.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Simba said:


> I will continue to fight for my dogs right to be treated equal to every other breed out there.


All breeds are NOT equal, though. That's why they are BREEDS. Each dog has qualities that come from their breeds that you have to keep in mind, respect, and sometimes manage.

If you get a herding breed like a border collie, most bc's will want to herd everything when they're a puppy. You have to teach them what is and is not appropriate to herd or you'll have problems down the line.

If you get a small terrier breed like a Jack Russell, you have to keep in mind that it's likely your dog will have a high prey drive and manage that by not having your dog off-leash in an unfenced area and by keeping any small rodents you may own as pets separate from your dog.

It's the same with pit bulls. It is a FACT that you will find discussed with EVERY SINGLE REPUTABLE pit bull rescue (you know, the organizations that deal with hundreds and thousands of these dogs every year) that you should be prepared for Dog Aggression in this "breed". They tell you to be prepared for it because most pit bull type dogs display it to some degree or another, even if it's just an intolerance for rude dogs.

That's why I gave you the links I did, to show you the spectrum from reputable sources. BAD RAP is the pit bull rescue that took in the Vick dogs. You think they aren't aware and knowledgeable about dog aggression? They explicitly state that is a fact of life you have to be aware of when having a pit bull type dog.

Again, we're not saying your dog WILL be dog aggressive, but we are saying that it's likely he will be and you need to be prepared for that. Otherwise I fear for you and your dog and what can happen.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

Sounds like a bunch of excuses for not being able to control and properly train your dog. If you have a dog that attacks other dogs on view then the problem is not the dog. It's your fault for not properly training your dog. Aggression against other dogs is a social problem for not letting them interact with other dogs because you assumed that because it was used for fighting eons ago that it will do it again." Ohh, Im not bringing my dog around other dogs because he's gonna attack" Wrong, Your hurting the dog by not training to be social as a puppy. Every time you tighten the leash when another dog comes around you are sending the dog a signal. You need to assume authority and be the dog owner. Not the dogs bitch. These dogs are so smart that they take training really good. But if your a lazy a$$ and settle for false statistics then you shouldn't own a dog and you actually are putting society at risk. . 

You need to be able to read your dogs body language and redirect the mind untill he/she gets it. I understand there are some that have behavioral issues but isn't it like that with every breed? Even humans? 

They are how you raise them.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Ok well now you are putting members down here, members who have years upon years of experience with this breed you have what a couple months? I suggest you open your mind a bit and listen to what the experienced owners have to offer you and listen . Im sorry but the clown who sold you a dog of this breed did the breed an injustice and obviously didnt care who he /she sold a dog too. With the mentality you have this breed isnt for you. I think you have watched a lil too much ceaser milan. Its genetic in these dogs, did anyone say dont socialize? no , every one of us on here have socialized our dogs ,alot of them dont have DA and manage just fine with other dogs the issue is with dog parks. Its an area uncontrollable , the best way to socialize with other dogs is one on one in a controlled setting where is play gets out of hand you can intervine quickly and effectively. People mistake socializing to only being with other dogs thats false. It needs to be done with new environments, people more then anything, and new experiences. Da can still kick in no matter how you raise them or how much you socialize its GENETIC, it can also be selective to only one sex or maybe even selct dog or 2 or canbe full on any dog in there path. I just dont get how you have had this dog for such a short time but already know it all? You really wont do you or your dog any justice if you think that way , there is always things to learn and when you are being offered knowledge and then throwing it in those peoples faces thats pretty disrespectful. Hopefully you never experience DA with your dog but maybe if you did it may open your eyes to it not being how you raise them , maybe then you will be so lucky as to have someone call you lazy ass.


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## PerfectPit (Aug 2, 2010)

I raised and bred dogs. I've owned multi dogs and they are socialized. My DA dog (as of yet) is not my APBT, it's my Mastiff. He lived all his life with 2 other dogs with no issues. At 8y/o and living 6 mths with my APBT he attacked my APBT. Now mind you, my dogs are trained and know their commands but when DA pops up everything goes out the window. I was present with them in my yard when it occurred. I wasn't able to get there fast enough. All commands went out of the window. My husband and I tried everything to separate them. Damage was done and hundreds of $ in vet bills along with 3 months of healing. My APBT didn't start it, he was blind sided by my Mastiff but let me tell you he was willing and able to finish it. I was blessed it wasn't in a dog park with other dogs. My APBT would of been blamed no question. It can happen with any breed at any time. Do you want to put your dog in a position have to protect himself, then be blamed for it. I wouldn't. I am always present when my dogs are outside in the backyard. My dogs wear muzzles/use leashes in public not because it is the law here but because I don't want anyone to try and say your dog.....We live a C&R lifestyle for everyone's safety and happiness. They play, socialize, and enjoy our company but it is separate, they are content with that.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't think I mentioned anybody in particular and I wasn't disrespectfull to you nor any member of this community. I give credit when it's do. Cesar Milan IS the real deal. I reference him because I've seen his work and respect his mind. You should too. Not my first time around the block either. I had a brindle name gambinii with no social issues. I can give him one command and he will sit there until I release him. No leash. I didn't say I knew everything, I just happen to disagree with the whole "I can't have my dog at a dog park that I helped pay for with my taxes like everybody else off leash and no muzzle just because of a law passed in 1989".

I enjoy educated discussions and Im sorry if I come out wrong but i get really frustrated by stupid assumptions without merits. Show me what gene in the dogs dna controls aggression. Then Show me side by side comparison where the pit's dna has a higher level of aggression to what you would consider a perfect dog gene and i will stand corrected. Until then all this is here is just a discussion.

My military experience has given me the opportunity to see structure in action. With the proper training and discipline you can achieve anything in life. I plan on raising a structured dog worthy of equal treatment.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

Here's my little soldier wearing the latest in military attire.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

You should not assume that people who choose (wisely) to avoid the dog park do so because their dogs are 'untrained' or 'unsocialized' My dog has multiple Obedience and Rally titles, I would not risk exposing HIM to the idiots and untrained, unmanaged dogs he would have to interact with at a dog park. 

What you are not getting is that it is YOUR job to protect YOUR pup from bad experiences that may negatively impact him and his social development and you can NOT do that in a dog park because you have no control over the other people and dogs who are there.

Your dog is a PUPPY, and it doesn't matter how freaking cute he is in whatever he is wearing, he going to grow into a DOG. Dogs will often settle or control conflict with other dogs with a show of teeth or a minor spat (much sound about nothing) or even a downright brawl. You do not have the luxury of owning a dog in which 'normal' dog behavior is excepted (should have gotten something fluffy if you wanted to go to the dog park and no one would care how bad you dog was) Instead, what you have represents all of us who struggle to keep our dogs, present our dogs in a positive light.

One slip up, a dog attacks your poor pup and he fights back (as he should, what self respecting dog takes that laying down?) it hits the news and BAM, all the work I do with my dogs is undone. No one reads about CGC's in the papers, no one reads about Titles either, but you damn well bet your ass they read about any 'pit bull attack' and that's what it will be deemed. It sucks, and it's not fair, but we play by a different set of rules.... and play by them we must, or we lose our dogs. It's that serious. No one reads about all the good things that happen at the dog park.

No one here is saying they think their dogs are aggressive or 'bad', what we ARE saying is 'do not set your dog up to fail' and do not drag us down with you.


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## Carriana (May 13, 2008)

Simba said:


> Sounds like a bunch of excuses for not being able to control and properly train your dog. If you have a dog that attacks other dogs on view then the problem is not the dog. It's your fault for not properly training your dog. Aggression against other dogs is a social problem for not letting them interact with other dogs because you assumed that because it was used for fighting eons ago that it will do it again." Ohh, Im not bringing my dog around other dogs because he's gonna attack" Wrong, Your hurting the dog by not training to be social as a puppy. Every time you tighten the leash when another dog comes around you are sending the dog a signal. You need to assume authority and be the dog owner. Not the dogs bitch. These dogs are so smart that they take training really good. But if your a lazy a$$ and settle for false statistics then you shouldn't own a dog and you actually are putting society at risk. .
> 
> You need to be able to read your dogs body language and redirect the mind untill he/she gets it. I understand there are some that have behavioral issues but isn't it like that with every breed? Even humans?
> 
> They are how you raise them.


The issue is that in a dog park, there is no leash. Your dog is at the whim of every other owners' training or lack thereof. There is no control. But when a fight breaks out, whether or not your pit bull starts it, it will be blamed. It has nothing to do with signals traveling down the leash.

Just tonight we had our neighbors over with their 11 week old golden retriever pup. The environment was controlled, and though it was my pit bull, Loki, I was the most concerned about with the pup, it was our sheltie mix that showed the most intolerance towards the pup. Loki more than exceeded my expectations but does that mean that I plan on taking him to the dog park tomorrow? No. Because i love my dog and I will not set him up for failure. Just because he is well behaved or tolerant toward one dog does not mean that he will be the same way with others.

Look, it is your choice on whether or not you take your dog to dog parks, but know that if an incident arises and your dog is involved in any way, it will not reflect well on the breed.

And the whole "it's all in how you raise them" gimmick is seriously old and a ridiculous cliche. You cannot love an inherent characteristic out of an animal just by sheer will. The sooner you recognize that the better off you an your dog will be. Pit bulls are great dogs, but they are not like every other dog breed and they are not for everyone. To think otherwise is foolish.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

I never said I didn't or don't socialize my dog. Have you read any of my posts?

I'm one of the ONLY members here who took their dog to the dog park and doggy daycare. Everyone here will tell you that they tried to persuade me of the dangers of letting my dog socialize in an uncontrolled environment. I was just like you, believe it's all in how they're raised.

Well, it's not. I never changed in socializing my dog, I continued to take Kane to dog parks and doggy daycares, I let him greet whichever dog he wanted to greet (which was, and still is, every dog he sees), but even though *I* didn't stop socializing him, *he* started to mature and *his* dog tolerance began to change. Kane went from a dog that was laid-back and let everything slide off his back to a dog that gave a warning for rude behavior and then backed it up physically if the other dog still didn't listen.

So, how do you explain that change in dog tolerance when 1) *I* didn't stop socializing him even as he got older and 2) he never had a bad incident with another dog to make him dog aggressive?

The answer is *he* changed as his genetics came into play.

To say that genetics have no effect on a dog, it's all in nurture is a fallacy and a lie. If that's the case, dogs must be SUPER SPECIAL!!!!! because they're the only known creature in the entire world, from microbes to blue whales, that have their behavior determined entirely by how they're raised. If genetics didn't play a role in how dogs behave, don't you think scientists would be writing article after article and doing experiment after experiment to see WHY they're like that?

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are several reasons I felt comfortable enough to take Kane to my local dog park:

1) It's huge. 4 acres of land with a lake in the middle and trails through a forested area towards the back. If I didn't like the way a dog played, I could take Kane with me to a different part of the park and we could have our own fun.

2) You had to pay a good chunk of change for membership to this park. Because of this, you didn't get any Joe Schmoe off the street walking in with their untrained dog. Most people who don't care enough about their dogs to train or socialize them properly won't bother to fork over the money to pay for a dog park when we have several others that are free in the area.

3) Following that, the (majority of) owners who went to this park CARED and were RESPONSIBLE and INVOLVED in their dog's playing.They didn't ignore their dog's bad behavior, they didn't stand to the side and just talk on their cell phones, etc.

The chances of finding all three of those in a dog park are slim. You might get one or the other, but the majority of dog parks are underfunded, not maintained, and too small for the number of dogs and people that go to them.

And despite my park's good qualities, a fight still broke out between two dogs that had been playing together for years. Not a snarly, back-off exchange, but a full-on, to the death fight. Both dogs and owners came away with injuries from breaking up the fight and from what I heard, the vet bills were a grand or two.

Those two dogs were a lab and a border collie. Now imagine if it was a pit bull. It would get immediate news attention: "PIT BULL ATTACKS DOG AT DOG PARK". People would put pressure on you and the city to put your dog down because he's "vicious" and "uncontrollable", even if he didn't start the fight.

Is that what you want to risk?


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

You obviously do not get it simba. Why take the risk? Many people have explained socialization. Others have explained why Cesar Milan on tv isn't the real deal. The real guy carries a breadstick because YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT COULD HAPPEN. The world is not as structured as the military and expecting it to be in regards of dogs is outrageous when others do not take this approach. Why out your dog at risk with other owners who you do not know. Forget about the dogs breed and worry about owners and potential for disease. Why put your dog (that I am assuming you love) at risk?


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

Im Sorry if i seemed like a hard head. It just gets me so mad how people discriminate these dogs. I understand you alls concerned and feelings about dog parks. I agree, I wouldn't want an idiot to blame my dog. Plus I don't want fleas and ticks.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

this nature vs nurture topic seems popular lately.
i think we tend to humanize our dogs in so many ways (ie putting clothes on them and such). people say things like "it's how you raise them that counts" like they are human children. and while this may be true in a general sense. we forget that even human nature cannot be changed. nurture cannot conquer evolution (or hundreds of generations of selective breeding).
how absurd would it be to "teach" a teenager to NOT be horny? or a mother to NOT be protective of her kids? of course these are drastic examples but they illustrate my point. can i show you the gene for horniness? ... no. behavioral traits are not fully understood but the key is somewhere in neurotransmitters and hormones. and that's a ball of genetic wax that isn't easy to unravel like coat colors.
dogs are animals. animals are instinctual. the very nature of their existence is to continue their existence. and aggression toward competitors in the same gene pool is part of that. humans have enhanced and exploited this. it was already part of their genetic make up from their wild ancestors still running around yellowstone. and we have compounded those behaviors with selective breeding programs.
i realize that as a bull dog owner, i must take a close, hard, and honest look at the ancestry of my dog. respect the power of DNA. and work diligently within the parameters that nature has defined. only then can i do right by him.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Simba said:


> Im sorry but I have to disagree with those who say that these dogs should be treated like wild killing animals. Not every dog is the same. The dog is only as social as the owner makes him. The best example of a dog that looks like a killing machine but will prove anybody wrong with his calm attitude under any circumstance is the great Daddy, Cesar's pit bull that past away. Perfect example of owner molding his dog. To me not all dogs are the same. I've seen chiwawas behave worst then most pit bulls. We are in 2012 people, The days of the killer pit bull are over. The pit bull is as aggressive as the owner lets him be. If your dog cant behave at the park don't blame it on the breed, blame it on your lack of effort to make him social.
> 
> Some owners have these dogs and although they don't keep them in a backyard chained and hanging weights from their necks, but they go around acting as if the dog should be feared. Why? What's going on here? This was the first dog at the white house, this was the famous Petey in the movie the little rascals. How is it that in a dogfight they tear each other up and bite chunks off each other yet they don't bite the handlers?
> 
> I would love for my dog to be judged individually, not by others irresponsibility. If you treat your dog like he's gonna attack someone or another dog, more then likely he will.





Simba said:


> Sounds like a bunch of excuses for not being able to control and properly train your dog. If you have a dog that attacks other dogs on view then the problem is not the dog. It's your fault for not properly training your dog. Aggression against other dogs is a social problem for not letting them interact with other dogs because you assumed that because it was used for fighting eons ago that it will do it again." Ohh, Im not bringing my dog around other dogs because he's gonna attack" Wrong, Your hurting the dog by not training to be social as a puppy. Every time you tighten the leash when another dog comes around you are sending the dog a signal. You need to assume authority and be the dog owner. Not the dogs bitch. These dogs are so smart that they take training really good. But if your a lazy a$$ and settle for false statistics then you shouldn't own a dog and you actually are putting society at risk. .
> 
> You need to be able to read your dogs body language and redirect the mind untill he/she gets it. I understand there are some that have behavioral issues but isn't it like that with every breed? Even humans?
> 
> They are how you raise them.


 Im not going to waste any more breath than this... 
You dont know anything! and dont be selfish,, you are not the end all see all. Its completely obvious to anyone with knowledge you are full of 

I was raised right and if you come up talking wrong to me Ima mess your hind end up bro. My dogs are the same.. Learn what Jeep dogs are, then youll know what I have.. Then we will talk about how training and dog aggression dont mesh. Ceasar Milan is your backdrop??? seriously? and 19th century family pets??

Listen to this here.. you can train your pitbull type dog as much as you want. Get him as good around other dogs as you want. And then you will start to get more comfortable letting him around other dogs, and then youll start looking away from him(or her obviously) as they "play", then youll just start letting him go play.... then one day.. a dog is gonna piss him off, and BAM!! Youre right there in the same place as every other ignorant "its how you raise them owner",,, with a dead dog laying under your "well trained" Pitbull..

Would you train a lion to be a household pet and let it grow old and hang our with the kids with no concern of what might happen cause you "trained it"

Like you think you have that kind of control to know that when its trained something wont happen???? well... it happens.. and one day youll learn


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

rodrigo said:


> i see both points of views as i am debating cutting parks out of Samson s routine.......
> 
> there is always a guaranteed safety when u take no risks and that is angelbaby's perspective which i must admit has its logic.
> 
> ...


Pit dogs have been bred since the 1800s (at least) to be fighters. Do you really think it is has been bred out in maybe twenty?

A little story for all you guys. My dog Dooney when I got him I lost my job went and became a pet trainer at Petsmat. Horrible training by the way. Any how I.took him to work with me. He spent the first few months of his life meeting new dogs. One day in the holding area at a dog show. My wife was holding him. A dog lunged at him. He turned on. Though he is not out looking for a fight some dogs just set him off. This dog was as social as a pup could be. When a bulldog turns on, that is centuries of breeding that we will not see undone any time soon.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> Im not going to waste any more breath than this...
> You dont know anything! and dont be selfish,, you are not the end all see all. Its completely obvious to anyone with knowledge you are full of
> 
> I was raised right and if you come up talking wrong to me Ima mess your hind end up bro.


Hey buddy, don't get your panties in a bunch there. Go ahead and pump your
breaks before you run into something..

*To everyone else---->>
Im noticing this is a sensitive subject for some people. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with what you don't feel is wright, It's why I started this thread. I wanted to express my feelings for what I feel is wrong in society and in my view discriminating. Yes, I understand pits have a history of being fighting dogs and the media and irresponsible owners have given them an even worst rep.

The argument is not weather it was my dog or his dog that started the fight. or who was trained better. What upset me was the fact that the breed was singled out and no other dog was given previsions.

I just wish we could go back to when the breed was respected and seen as Americas dog again.

An example of how I felt when I saw that sign is this:
What would you do if a new law is signed that says you can no longer own a pit because it may kill your kids? and that if seen by an officer and he feels the dog is a potential threat to him or somebody else he can take the dog down?.. Not to mention time in jail and huge fines.

That's what could potentially happen if I walk my dog in Miami Fl. 25 min, from where I live. and where I go to visit my mom every sunday. My mom loves Simba and I just feel the law is unjust.

*


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

BSL sucks and what makes it worse is bad owners who put this breed in situations where they can be looked at in that kind of light. Whether our dogs are the ones who start the fight they will ALWAYS be looked at as the bad ones no matter how it ends. So since we cant control who owns them I think laws like this at dog parks protect us all as a community. Thats all everyone here is saying.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

angelbaby said:


> BSL sucks and what makes it worse is bad owners who put this breed in situations where they can be looked at in that kind of light. Whether our dogs are the ones who start the fight they will ALWAYS be looked at as the bad ones no matter how it ends. So since we cant control who owns them I think laws like this at dog parks protect us all as a community. Thats all everyone here is saying.


:goodpost:

yeah laws suck, but when stupid owners think their dog is "special" and could never hurt a fly, sometimes laws need to be made. You can't fix stupid, but you can regulate it for those who can do better but just choose to ignore the breed they own...


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

I understand where you are coming from on the discrimination angle, but the fact is that hole has already been dug. When you own a dog who looks as yours and mine do, you are NOT afforded the same leeway as owners of other breeds. Your dog has to be better contained, better trained and it is not allowed to act like a DOG (heaven forbid) in public. There are no edit buttons in real life, and you can't cut out the scenes you don't want as you can on a TV show (which is what Cesar Milan is)


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Simba said:


> Hey buddy, don't get your panties in a bunch there. Go ahead and pump your
> breaks before you run into something..
> 
> That's what could potentially happen if I walk my dog in Miami Fl. 25 min, from where I live. and where I go to visit my mom every sunday. My mom loves Simba and I just feel the law is unjust.
> ...


Ima hit the gas and see what I hit. You wanna see what I run into? watch!

oh...and You need a refresher course on the constitution..


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

people here are upset, simba, because when your dog bites or kills another dog WE ALL SUFFER


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

:goodpost: Exactly!

I do not want to lose my dogs because some people would rather not think that their dogs genetics could pop up at any time!We're not saying that your dog cannot play with other dogs.We're saying to do it in the safety of your own home with dogs that you know under a watchful eye.
And seeing as how you already live in a BSL area I'm very suprised and disturbed actually that you would even want to risk or chance any kind of an altercation that could make things even worse :hammer:

When you own this breed you need to think about everyone else who does too.You need to think about everyone else's dogs.Because everything you do or do not do with your dog effects all of us.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

ames said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> yeah laws suck, but when stupid owners think their dog is "special"


My dog is not spacial, He's Very Special to me. If that makes me stupid then I'll except it. What does it make you?


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

thats why i like real documentaries on this breed. you should watch pit bull carnival, theres a dog fight in it. your dog isnt far removed from the dogs in this movie. its what it was bred to do. there is nothing inherantly evil about your dog, thats just its backround


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

also Daddy, ceasars dog, was not an apbt, he was an american bully.


you said dogs in your dogs past havent fought for eons...dog fighting laws werent enforced until 1976, not that long ago


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

*This is all Im saying....*


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Simba said:


> My dog is not spacial, He's Very Special to me. If that makes me stupid then I'll except it. What does it make you?


Informed, responsible, realistic, not setting my dog up to fail, keeping people positive about the breed by not giving them a negative reason... I can keep going but I hope you get the picture.



Simba said:


> *This is all Im saying....*
> 
> Cesar Millan Puppy Profiles: Junior - YouTube


what you are saying? Its a freaking clip that says EXACTLY what we all have been saying. Never once does he condone dog parks, never once does he say he lets the dog go on their own instincts, he has to WATCH and TEACH him. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TELLING YOU and you can't do it in a dog park dude. Seriously, you just made the case against yourself with this clip, lmao. And Junior isn't an APBT.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

ames said:


> what you are saying? Its a freaking clip that says EXACTLY what we all have been saying. Never once does he condone dog parks, never once does he say he lets the dog go on their own instincts, he has to WATCH and TEACH him. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TELLING YOU and you can't do it in a dog park dude. Seriously, you just made the case against yourself with this clip, lmao. And Junior isn't an APBT.


That's bull 
Alot of you been saying the same .."It's in their genes" "It's part of their dna" " They were bred to fight"... Ok. I got the park thing already and it's understandable but I made it clear that a balanced dog starts with the owner...Go back and read. My argument was that if you structure your dog and socialize him you won't have all those issues. I understand that you could have a well trained dog and some idiot might have his as a trophy and teaches him aggression and may get mine in trouble but that could be any breed in any situation. I also understand dogparks are in you alls opinion "bad news".. I get it. but i don't wanna keep a dog always tied down and muzzled away from other dogs. He's a dog for god's sake. He needs to be social and play with other dogs. I don't know any dog owners in my area and it puts me here debating with you all about it. I rather be out throwing a tennis ball and watching him run around with some little friends or something.

Look guys, I didn't mean to open this can of worms to get into arguments with you all. I just expressed my dislike for the system and how it's set up. Apparently some of you all have made the decision to live with it and not do much about it. Dogs will be dogs but us humans can make a diference in their lives. Simba and I will be attending obedience training and hopefully Simba can be an example in my community. I think the key is educating the public and setting up doggy boot camps for new owners so that cases like the ones some of you have experienced can be avoided.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who completely ignore the breed's history. There is a clue in the name American *Pit* Bull Terrier. Someone earlier in the thread made the very good point that we have different breeds for different purposes and if they were all the same, we wouldn't have different breeds. That's really about as complicated as it gets.

Breeds with a fighting history shouldn't be in dog parks. Not really a difficult concept to understand.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

my dog went to classes and I also had a paid trainer come to my house after I realized he (and I) needed one on one help to MANAGE his Dog aggression. Your argument is wrong. That is not an opinion, its a fact. Every breed has this in them, but most will not fight until death. A lab will get all pissed off, hurt a dog real bad, but they will get tired and bored and not FINISH the fight. a Pit bull will ALWAYS FINISH no matter who starts.

until you realize that, its in their genetic history, its a PART OF THEM please do NOT go out representing my breed of choice, do NOT go out playing the hero and how great your dog is and how you are his leader and you can go to all the dog parks everywhere no matter what. Give your dog a chance to grow before you are on the news saying this crap and you never thought it would happen. If this is your first pit bull type dog, why are you not willing to learn from people who have experience? Its a good thing to not allow pit bull type dogs at a off leash dog park. If it changed too many people might bring their dogs to an off leash dog park and make the mistake others have made before them. LEARN from history, it often repeats itself!!


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

^^^ Good posr


Simba said:


> That's bull
> Alot of you been saying the same .."It's in their genes" "It's part of their dna" " They were bred to fight"... Ok. I got the park thing already and it's understandable but I made it clear that a balanced dog starts with the owner...Go back and read. My argument was that if you structure your dog and socialize him you won't have all those issues. I understand that you could have a well trained dog and some idiot might have his as a trophy and teaches him aggression and may get mine in trouble but that could be any breed in any situation. I also understand dogparks are in you alls opinion "bad news".. I get it. but i don't wanna keep a dog always tied down and muzzled away from other dogs. He's a dog for god's sake. He needs to be social and play with other dogs. I don't know any dog owners in my area and it puts me here debating with you all about it. I rather be out throwing a tennis ball and watching him run around with some little friends or something.
> 
> Look guys, I didn't mean to open this can of worms to get into arguments with you all. I just expressed my dislike for the system and how it's set up. Apparently some of you all have made the decision to live with it and not do much about it. Dogs will be dogs but us humans can make a diference in their lives. Simba and I will be attending obedience training and hopefully Simba can be an example in my community. I think the key is educating the public and setting up doggy boot camps for new owners so that cases like the ones some of you have experienced can be avoided.


It is not just a dog it's a bulldog. and anyone that doesn't understand how that separates them from just any other dog should not have one.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Simba said:


> That's bull
> Alot of you been saying the same .."It's in their genes"
> My argument was that if you structure your dog and socialize him you won't have all those issues.
> He's a dog for god's sake.
> ...


 Thank you so much! This is the ONE single point we all try to make. THIS IS NOT A PET ANIMAL that should "run around. Many other great breeds for that.. AND YES, THIS BREED IS SWEET AND LOVING AND LOYAL AND AFFECTIONATE AND .... like Mike Tyson, will devestate with his sweetheart self, and you dont want to be the person with the pitbull that attacked the other dog in the park you were throwing your ball with yours off the leash in.. think about this.. get a retriever and stop letting another pitbull of their leash in public.. YOURE KILLING OUR BREED

(ps .. notice my avatar.. they are sweethearts, and I know this, but come see her at a show.......)


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

ames said:


> Do NOT go out representing my breed of choice, do NOT go out playing the hero and how great your dog is and how you are his leader and you can go to all the dog parks everywhere no matter what.


Your suppression of your dog in my opinion is wrong. On top of that who are you to tell me what I can and cant do with my dog. If I choose to go to my daughter's school and talk to a group of children about the breed and how we can prevent people like you from suppressing them and making them out to be worst then what they really are then to me that's doing the breed some justice. Did someone inject them with killing juice and it's over? Did someone install a fighting chip on every pit bull? In my opinion, Hell no. If Simbas parents and grand parents weren't raised to fight and were part of a family setting where they were loved and lived normal loving and social lives, you mean to tell me that those traits are less then those of a dog raised only to fight?

Let's compare 2 dogs. 
Killa was a dog bred to fight and came from a bloodline of nothing but fighters. His life was in cages, chained to a pole, trained daily only to kill. Sometime he would get a few muts to spar with. Killa doesn't get affection and never was given the chance to be around other dogs.. Killa was retired then used for mating for more fighting generations.

Red was a puppy from good owners with lots of love and attention to give. Always exposed to other dogs and taught to ignore dogs with no balance. Like daddy and Jr. Red loved children and was always exposed to different situations. The all around good house dog. Red had puppies and care for them and even passed down and taught the puppies her ways.

I can understand how some traits would be passed down from a dog like killa. But what about Red's traits. You gonna treat every puppy as if they all came from killa? You mean to tell me that I have to keep my dog suppressed because of the traits another dog posses? If the dog was trained to fight at the turn of the 19th century and was bred to do only that then what about people who didn't bread them for that matter? Is that trait lost? Is that breed not worthy of the same treatment and judgment as a dog that wasn't raised to fight? So what is there to get? What am I missing? Somebody please explain to me how training a dog to fight can be handed down to his offspring if the owner is not raising him to fight but to be a member of a family home. So if I train Simba to bring me a beer from the fridge his offspring are gonna be born with that trait?

What Im not getting is how people rather sit behind and let an uneducated public treat their dogs as if they were an untamed beast. What I don't get is how If a member of this site says they wanna make a difference in the breeds reputation he would get bashed as if he said he's fighting them. What I don't get is the lack of voices saying "We can change this"... I think I owe it to my dog to provide him a fair and balanced life. I refuse to keep my dog secluded from society as if he was a freak or something. Im more pumped now than ever to go out and make a difference.

If i could strap 80lbs of gear and weapons and go across seas and defend my country from extremist groups trying to kill my fellow Americans and what we stand for, then it shouldn't be so hard for me to defend my dog in my own country. Anybody who know me can tell you that I don't lay on my back and take it. Now you can sit on your ass and settle or you can get up and do something about it.

_"It isn't the breed alone, but the human behind the dog that determine behavior". _ Cesar Milan


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Simba said:


> Your suppression of your dog in my opinion is wrong. On top of that who are you to tell me what I can and cant do with my dog. If I choose to go to my daughter's school and talk to a group of children about the breed and how we can prevent people like you from suppressing them and making them out to be worst then what they really are then to me that's doing the breed some justice. Did someone inject them with killing juice and it's over? Did someone install a fighting chip on every pit bull? In my opinion, Hell no. If Simbas parents and grand parents weren't raised to fight and were part of a family setting where they were loved and lived normal loving and social lives, you mean to tell me that those traits are less then those of a dog raised only to fight?
> 
> Let's compare 2 dogs.
> Killa was a dog bred to fight and came from a bloodline of nothing but fighters. His life was in cages, chained to a pole, trained daily only to kill. Sometime he would get a few muts to spar with. Killa doesn't get affection and never was given the chance to be around other dogs.. Killa was retired then used for mating for more fighting generations.
> ...


First off thanks for what you do for our country, real talk. Second off Man you just don't know anything about the breed. It is crazy this two dog example is a joke I already told you about my dog in this thread. it is not something that can be trained. I don't see why you do not understand that. If you want to do something for the breed keep your dog on a leash when not on private property, and have respect for the stopping power our breed has. Take your dog to public places were he is going to be confronted by dogs he does not know is not good for the breed. Nor is Cesar Milan, He fills the masses with these thoughts but fails to tell them that some dogs you can not take the DA out of.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I think taking the dog to your daughters school and talking to them about your dog and the breed is great. People need to leave the stereo typical myths and get to the facts. I always walk my girls down to the school they love the kids and the kids love them. Parents have even come around and talked to me about the dogs and hopefully I have changed some minds on them even if just slightly. I think socializing with strange people is a great idea. Dogs on the other hand should be in a controlable environment. But im out of breath on this thread I think if you dont get it yet you probably wont until you find yourself in the situations we are all trying to warm you about. So as you said we cant control what you do with your dog , good luck hope everything is full of rainbows and lollipops like you seem to think it is


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok, I think we are starting to slide down the slippery slope here. The OP has stated that they understand the dangers of Dog Parks and Uncontrolled environments and the risks inherent to those.

However. we do need to be careful, especially on public forums, of making our point by stating they are unlike other dogs (dog aggression is a common trait among many breeds and crops up in dogs within breeds not generally associated with it) They are not akin to wild animals like lions (this gives credence to the wack jobs over at dogsbite.org who use our own words against us in the fight to ban our breed, they like to use direct quotes from websites like this and others to 'prove' that even we Pit Bull Apologists think they are untrainable and uncontrollable) Can you tell I'm a bit paranoid, since they have quoted me before?:hammer:

It's quite simple, really. Do not put your dog in situations you can not control. Don't let it make it's own decisions at places like a dog park and KNOW your particular dog.... not what you WANT your particular dog to be, but how will he or she react in a given situation. Learn to read dog body language and be aware that DOGS become less tolerant of rude behavior as they mature and it is your responsibility to prevent them from being in a situation where they need to handle it themselves. That's your job.

Dogs aren't 'trained' to fight in the normal sense of the word, and I think that is where you (OP)are getting off track here. They are put in situations where aggression (defensive or offensive) is encouraged and rewarded. Natural instincts, brought to the fore) I've had dogs like Killa in your scenario, straight off fight busts, who were absolutely stupendous dogs. Given little to no socialization with much of anything, they were solid little dogs who even learned to tolerate or ignore other dogs.

I own a dog raised like Red in your scenario and she, despite her socialization, since 8 weeks old, is always looking to throw down with any dog. She's quite devious about it too. No amount of obedience training will EVER take that out of her, it is who she is. She knows not to act a fool now, but give her an opportunity and she will take it. She is sitting 2 feet away in a crate while my foster dog gets some run right now, looking like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. Will even play bow as the other dog tries to entice her to play through the crate. She's the same dog who pushed open a door I didn't check close enough and kicked that dogs ass in a brawl that took me a break stick and a sliding door to end. (my mistake, obviously) She's great with people and kids (as a Pit Bull should be) even loves the vet, but she requires a great deal of management. This has nothing to do with her 'training' she is actually trained just as well as my competitive obedience male, she just can't compete because she would pose a danger to other peoples dogs. She would hold a Down Stay amongst other dogs, but other dogs don't always hold theirs. They enter 'her' space and it's on. So, I would never put her in THAT situation.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

Rudy4747 said:


> First off thanks for what you do for our country, real talk. Second off Man you just don't know anything about the breed. It is crazy this two dog example is a joke I already told you about my dog in this thread. it is not something that can be trained. I don't see why you do not understand that. If you want to do something for the breed keep your dog on a leash when not on private property, and have respect for the stopping power our breed has. Take your dog to public places were he is going to be confronted by dogs he does not know is not good for the breed. Nor is Cesar Milan, He fills the masses with these thoughts but fails to tell them that some dogs you can not take the DA out of.


First of all...your welcome.. Second, it's people like you and what ever her name is that hurt this breed after the fact. My understanding of the history they were first bred to bring down bulls for show, then that got band and breeders turned to fighting them in pits. But it seems like that's the only trait that remained was the fighting part because it seems that the part where they are also really smart and loyal got lost in the blood. It seems like we're mixed up with breeding and socializing. At what point do they separate? Why can you breed them to fight but you can't breed them to be social. It's my understanding that bull dogs and terriers are both loving and social breeds. So why should I believe that putting them together you get a monster? IMO breeding and training are 2 different things. Yes the pit is the choice to fight because of their strength and dominance but pit fighter traits are programmed into the dog by humans. I don't believe there is a fighting gene in the pit that's different from any other dog. Any dog in any situation where he feels he needs to defend him self will, some till the end. Not all thou. Some will ensure their dominance and the other has to except the higher power. The difference in the pit is his strength and that's why the breed. Not because his daddy was a killa. That's just my view. Of course if a breeder is running an underground training camp for all the puppies from his fighters then I would have to agree. But not all breeders are fighting their pits.

It's easier to blame the dog for our human errors. I think it's time for the breed to be looked at for what they really are, Loving affectionate, loyal and smart dogs. Not the ex killer. If us humans can't take responsibility for our actions then the suits will make uneducated decisions based on a 1989 law.

Here is some food for thought... German Shepards are bred and trained to attack humans. When their not working, should they no be around the public? 
it is in their dna isn't it?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Here is some food for thought... German Shepards are bred and trained to attack humans. When their not working, should they no be around the public? 
it is in their dna isn't it?[/QUOTE]

You make some Ok points. But you are mistaken in a few things you said. First off yeah they were bull baiting dogs. Started out as a working purpose, Butchers at the time believed it made the meat more tender if it were worked by bulldogs, then turned to sport then when it was banned. That is when the dogs were pushed heavily into the pit. I am not by any means say the dog are not loyal. They are and it is even said that the gamiest dogs were bred away from Human aggressive behaviors. this is why this is a great breed it's will to please it's family. Along with that the dog was bred to be Game, never quit attitude in the pit. Sadly this is the reason that Like a working GSD these dogs must have special owners ons that know the right and wrong ways to do things. A bulldog should always be on a leash in public like I said.

I do some Training, some people even paid me to train their dogs and them. (not saying I am the best trainer, but I know a thing or two) So say what you will about people not being able to control their dogs. *NO THIS** breed is not like other dogs*. And not every one should own them just like not everyone should own a working GSD. It is not the other people I am worried about it is other dogs. A "pitbull" attacks Family Yorkie" Who's fault does the media point to? The person who thought they could undo CENTURIES of breeding, and was not a responsible APBT owner. Then the hole bulldog community and the breed suffers. Thats all I am saying. Tell me what you have done for the breed?


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## shewerewolf (Oct 27, 2010)

Everyone here is trying to better the breed and help fight discrimination...But we also understand our dogs history and that genetics do play a part in DA (not ALWAYS but sometimes)...

All we are saying is dont take a bulldog breed to an off-leash park...we didnt say dont socialize your dog...by all means...get to know others, have playdates that are supervised, your dog will be plenty happy with that. 

My girl alexa is a rescue mutt with bulldog in her lineage somewhere lol...and I still would not take her to a dog park...I wouldnt even take any other breed to one! theres worms, parasites, and just unruly untrained dogs running there. Even if your "pitbull" doesnt start the fight, they will try to finish it...and if they do then it supports and strengthens BSL...

I have plenty of family and friends with dogs, I take alexa to play with them all the time, but do i take my eyes off of them??? NO

We are not trying to be the "blind bad guys"..we know what we are talking about. It has happened too many times...


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

Simba said:


> IMO breeding and training are 2 different things. Yes the pit is the choice to fight because of their strength and dominance but pit fighter traits are programmed into the dog by humans. I don't believe there is a fighting gene in the pit that's different from any other dog. Any dog in any situation where he feels he needs to defend him self will, some till the end. Not all thou. Some will ensure their dominance and the other has to except the higher power. The difference in the pit is his strength and that's why the breed. Not because his daddy was a killa. That's just my view. Of course if a breeder is running an underground training camp for all the puppies from his fighters then I would have to agree. But not all breeders are fighting their pits.


i really want to bite my lip and just wait for this thread to fizzle. oh well.
i understand your frustration with public views of our dogs. i understand your desire for it to be different. and i give you props for taking an active role in changing the sentiment of your community. 
but it seems to me your opinions, views, and beliefs are based on what you _want_ your dog to be. and not what your dog _is._ it also seems you don't really grasp the genetics behind animal behavior. (nobody really has a firm grasp on inherited behavior but there are some basic rules) i will spare you the details but genetics is something i have background in. there is no single gene for any behavior. this includes aggression. it's not as simple as crossing A and B to get C. behavioral traits are way way way more complex than physical traits. too many variables.
"training" a dog to fight only gives it skill. your military experience may give you some perspective here... there are well trained fighters with great skill. and then there are those who are truly talented. individuals born with natural ability and instinctual prowess. in the case of pit bulls, historically, talent = dog aggression. sometimes talent and skill come together to create something exceedingly rare.
now imagine if only the talented and skilled individuals were allowed to reproduce for generation after generation. how that would shape not only the form but the general behavior of a population. at this point, the most fundamental building blocks of a population have been permanently changed. now there aren't any more UNtalented individuals.
that's where our dogs come from. it isn't "training" that put aggression in your dog. it was selective breeding. and "training" can't take it out. yes, behavior modification will suppress unwanted traits. but training is not passed on to offspring... "talent" is.
in my mind it's almost a contradiction that i'm still working out. but the origin of our dogs is a reality and a burden that i must accept in order to preserve it. preserving a burden is the part that i'm still working on in my head. i just don't have the words for it yet. but it's somewhere in the respect for nature. i don't want my dog to be aggressive. but i don't want him to be anything else than what he is.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

... and if you're asking yourself "what the hell is this dude talking about?" it's okay. lol. its 3am and when i read this in the morning i will probably ask the same question.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Simba said:


> If i could strap 80lbs of gear and weapons and go across seas and defend my country from extremist groups trying to kill my fellow Americans and what we stand for, then it shouldn't be so hard for me to defend my dog in my own country. Anybody who know me can tell you that I don't lay on my back and take it. Now you can sit on your ass and settle or you can get up and do something about it.
> 
> _"It isn't the breed alone, but the human behind the dog that determine behavior". _ Cesar Milan


 If you woulda joined the Corps you woulda got more than 80lbs, and you mighta learned more.. dont make the assumption youre the only one here how has gone to fight for what we have..... both country and dogs..

youre too young to know everything.. and too old to think you still do...
why arent you listening to anyone that doesnt think like you??


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

By the way.....
Questions:
Whats better dry food or can food at his age? 
In cups how much food should I give him?
What the best times to feed? 
How many times a day should I feed him? 
If he doesn't eat it all should I leave the bowl out?

These are all *rooki*e questions you asked not to mention your introduction thread. So how could you possibly think you know so much now? Weird how you have become a breed and behavioral expert in such short time!


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> youre too young to know everything.. and too old to think you still do...
> why arent you listening to anyone that doesnt think like you??


 Im gonna quote myself here by saying 90% of us go through this, some earlier, some later, myself included.. though about Martial Arts in my case.. do you really think you are able to do what ALL the other seasoned trainers and dogmen of old couldnt.. ?

Ill tell you this and it just needs to seat itself in that head of yours.. 
*I AM NOT CONDONING THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT*

Take your silly behind to the dog parks with your "pitbull", go walk around the dog beach, go play fetch in the park, and frolic around the world, go promote the better side of the breed, We do love the good attention! AND I PROMISE YOU, maybe or maybe not this dog, but ONE DAY you will see what we have all tried to teach you. Then you will see, and you will also become another part of the problem..

Ill share a photo for you... 









and look at the COUNTLESS other pictures on here showing others' dogs in the loving light we love ! WE ALL KNOW HOW YOU FEEL AND WHAT YOURE SAYING!

Listen to me or go talk to those with dogs titled with CGC, TT , SafeDog or other well respected titles (I got the safedog ) Even the most well trained need not be running around off leash ESPECIALLY with other strange dogs and no supervision.


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

You're not getting what we're trying to say.Every single apbt,amstaff,american bully comes from fighting dogs of the past.
Yes you can train them to be a little less DA or ignore other dogs while out in public.But you should not test their obediance while off leash in a public place.
Should you socialize your pup,you bet!Socialize with as many people and situations that you can.Heck even socialize with other dogs while they are still young.But why chance something happening when he gets older in the publics eye?
Here's what training their DA will get you.Very nice and calm indoors with each other.But you better bet I don't let them play outside together.The play will go to rough housing then to fighting if not stopped,and they have been around each other and socialized with other dogs since pups.
If you cannot accept what these dogs are or where they came from then you shouldn't own one.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

Rudy4747 said:


> By the way.....
> Questions:
> Whats better dry food or can food at his age?
> In cups how much food should I give him?
> ...


Those questions were asked for the following reasons..
I've had many pitbulls all fed under diferent guidlines. I've used diferent approches and some worked some didn't. I asked to see what the so called experts can advise as I would like to balance this dog as much as posible. Unfortunatly I didn't get much out of the questios. So I asked simba's vet who advises me with clarity. As far as behavioral expert, I'm not gonna close my self in with idiotic opinions from people who surpress their dogs.

From what I've gathered on this forum no one has had anything worth reading exept kingirl who I feel made more cense in one paragraph then all the post set by other people.

Kingsgurl wrote.
_It's quite simple, really. Do not put your dog in situations you can not control. Don't let it make it's own decisions at places like a dog park and KNOW your particular dog.... not what you WANT your particular dog to be, but how will he or she react in a given situation. Learn to read dog body language and be aware that DOGS become less tolerant of rude behavior as they mature and it is your responsibility to prevent them from being in a situation where they need to handle it themselves. That's your job._

Today I walked Simba and ran into a neighbor walking his very large pit bull whom I never spoke to. I notice that when we got about 50 feet from each other he tightened his leash and pulled his dog back to let me pass. from looking at Simba's body language and tail i could see that Simba was eager to play and mingle. I quickly asked him to please let his dog come closer and smell Simba. I knew that it could be bad but I felt confident that if we exercise this it could be a good thing. He was a little hesitant at first but then He slowly let his dog named black come closer and closer to Simba but still a little tensed. Looking at black's tail I can see that he was curious but not in an aggressive manner. They got closer and closer and then it happened. We both let them smell each other and Simba being still a pup ran around him gave him a friendly bark. Black's ears did flicked back a bit and got into a more playful posture. Simba's tail was wagging at 100mph and Black's was wagging also. If his tail would of been pointed strait up or wagging sort of slow I would of took that as a sigh of confidence and negative tension. At this point I knew that with more practice this was doable. We got to talking and walking and both Simba and Black were both walking together as if they were best pals.

After talking with my new found neighbor Ron I gathered that he did't think Black was social like that as he recently rescued him and never lets him around other dogs for fear of aggression. As we parted both Black and Simba were sort of sad to go separate ways. I rewarded Simba and told him how good a boy he is.

These are little steps im making to get Simba exposed to different experiences and situations as a puppy. I understand not all situations will run as smooth but without effort their wont be results.

You can continue to tighten the leash on your dog every time you cross another dog or you can communicate with the other owner and both make efforts to have more social and balanced dogs. 
Or you can Just be ignorant and keep adding to the myths..


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

well thats a good start and maybe you can work something out where the TWO of them can have suppervised play dates some time. Thats all anyone here is saying SUPERVISE and in control unlike dog parks. Just to note too simba is young and most of our dogs whether they are DA now or not got along and played with other dogs at that age, its when they hit the 1year - 2year mrk where you just need to be more aware of signs , body langauge ect. As well most adults willtolerate pups alot better then they will other adults, even one of my Da males like pups of both sexes.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't suppress my dog, but I also refuse to set him up to fail by putting him in a situation I have no control over. No one else that has comments on these threads suppress their dogs either, so watch what you are saying about people. You are not READING what we are WRITING.

here is my boy and his bdf

























and when I had him meet new dogs this is how they are introduced, so I have CONTROL over the situation. They were not allowed without the gate until their SECOND meeting, and still it is controlled.









your dog will look to you for how he should react, he should not just want to go up to a dog and sniff it until YOU allow him to do this. Letting him make his own decision will not help you later when he doesn't know you are in charge and you are the one he should look to in any situation, not making the decision himself.

Also, someone mentioned that this isnt the only breed that has DA, of course it isn't but those breeds do not have the same endurance as bully breeds. They give up and get tired out or bored and move on. Bulldogs do NOT get bored in the middle of a fight and just walk away. They want to finish what they started, because that's in their nature. the key is to CONTROL situations, as you explained above with 2 dogs on leash and both owners around.

You are not understanding we all want the best for our dogs and the breed they represent just by the way they look. Making it anything else is downright shameful.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Now I think your just trying to be hard headed. No one ever said don't socialize your dog. I have just said in every one of my posts that a bulldog should never be off leash when not on your o ( or some friends ) private property. 

And yeah your dog is a little young if you can remember i love to know how the same two dogs you talked about today get along 2 years from now. 
You can be safe with your dog and respect the history or you can be irresponsible and add to the negative stereo types. With that being said I don't look to argue with folks on forums I think you may have missed some things I said I never said do not socialize your dogs... You should just do so in a controlled environment, not at the park or the lake or what ever public place. No need to get defensive. 
Just curious How is this pup bred? If you don't mind me asking.


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

I'm glad Simba made a friend (and you did too) in a nicely controlled situation. As someone else mentioned, maybe you guys could walk together or have some supervised play dates as the dogs become better acquainted. This is a far better socialization experience for your pup than the dog park.


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## Simba (Dec 29, 2011)

Quick update,

Simba is now 3. He is still the baby in our family and my best friend. We've been thru a lot together and can report that i've been fortunate to not have any health issues thank God. Here are few pics.




























These 2 are Snowy and King.


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