# Paper hanging in the past.



## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

just asking now so dont noone blo a gasket.back when carver and some old dogmen did it i understand or i hope it was done to cover up the make up of the dog so noone could see how(or why) the dog was as good as it was,but as i read now its like they were crooks tring to beef up the dogs make up.what yall think.as i said i read more than i type so jus looking for some opins.Admin hope i didnt put this in the wrong place if i did plz move it.Firehazard,KMdogs,surfer lets hear it.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I know I am not one of those you named but I have been told a great many things about these dogs by men that new thess old timer personally. I hate to burst your bubble but not all of the great dogmen were gentlemen in the game. Fact is some were hustlers and down right outlaw types. Mr Ed Crensahw states in a n interveiw that he knew that Carver had produced dogs out of his stock and papered them as being from the carver dogs instead. 

Same has been said bout a few others. Fact of the matter is some famous dogs are in question and would cause huge problems if where proven true. I have numeros friends that own Ed Crenshaw dog that swear honeybunch is off of Reno and not Bullyson could you imagine how many dogs are in question if this was proven true.?.?


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## rabbit (Jan 14, 2012)

I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I've often read that what defined the APBT was whether or not it performed. 95% of dogs would not have been able to do it and so the dogs that were successful were then named an APBT. so technically wouldn't it not matter what they were before because after their success they were named an APBT. Now I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're talking about but that's what came to mind after I read your post


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

Rudy4747 said:


> I know I am not one of those you named but I have been told a great many things about these dogs by men that new thess old timer personally. I hate to burst your bubble but not all of the great dogmen were gentlemen in the game. Fact is some were hustlers and down right outlaw types. Mr Ed Crensahw states in a n interveiw that he knew that Carver had produced dogs out of his stock and papered them as being from the carver dogs instead.
> 
> Same has been said bout a few others. Fact of the matter is some famous dogs are in question and would cause huge problems if where proven true. I have numeros friends that own Ed Crenshaw dog that swear honeybunch is off of Reno and not Bullyson could you imagine how many dogs are in question if this was proven true.?.?


no bubble to be busted.i agree alot of folks wood be heartbroke prob.no disrespect to u rudy those were jus the names to come up at the time


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

rabbit said:


> I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I've often read that what defined the APBT was whether or not it performed. 95% of dogs would not have been able to do it and so the dogs that were successful were then named an APBT. so technically wouldn't it not matter what they were before because after their success they were named an APBT. Now I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're talking about but that's what came to mind after I read your post


well maybe but,most of the time if they didnt" perform" the feed bill was cut so at that time only the 5% u speak of moved on.those r the ones that we wood be talking about rite?


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

rabbit said:


> I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I've often read that what defined the APBT was whether or not it performed. 95% of dogs would not have been able to do it and so the dogs that were successful were then named an APBT. so technically wouldn't it not matter what they were before because after their success they were named an APBT. Now I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're talking about but that's what came to mind after I read your post


Yes true especially in the really old days before registries and sanctioned events. But the odds of getting a good one was better from proven dogs. The hustling doggers knew this and capitalized by hanging. Made them look like better producers and made their dogs look better. Got more pups peddled out and made more money.

Some times we glorify these men too much. But then there was the regular working man that put down good dogs because they loved to. Like Bob Neblett!


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

See also Earl Tudor.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

back then, they were all carver dogs, yes maurice moved the peds around. that was known, even the story on 'honeybunch' is in question. it was said 'he would sell you the stew but wouldnt give you the recipe' on just about any of the ones doing the breedings in the 60's & 70's if you go back 1 or 2 more generations is was basically the same dogs.
i dont disagree with him either because back then if you didnt like the one he sent you he would just send another. and most the time just let you keep the first one. if you didnt want it he knew he didnt. but dogs leaving his yard were creating whole strains by themselves bullyson, honeybunch, pool hall red and more. but he made it where you had to make some breedings before you started reaping the benifits of his yard. smart man. but i'm sure with the good you got the bad, 'ch' art or nigerino those dogs just disappeared [stolen] i heard art was being bred as 'ch' hurt. james said he try 28 x's to get pups of hurt then someone else got him and lo and behold he starts producing. but stranger things have happened 
good luck, yis


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Relatively often you would have these men "paper hang" or falsely represent a pedigree in order to show that said Pit Dog was worthy of a match against another of which was proven to be world class.. You would also have this in order to promote their yards, promote a breeding and to sell Bulldogs..

I love my Carver dogs, the best animals i have had has been traced right back to his hands. However, Mr. Carver also was arguably one of the most well known peddlers. Culled but also would sell cold Bulldogs to get them off his yard to keep his stock pure by name, American Pit Bull Terriers. This is a unique position to be in as it can work against a man or for a man, in Carvers case i believe it was fairly neutral.. Mistakes happen, let go of good producers however the ones kept were some of the best out there in his time period. He knew what he was doing, whether negative or positively viewed.

With anything you had your good and your bad, you had people for the name of the dog and benefit of the dog, you had those only seeking drugs or money or a sense of power in the periods of significant offerings.. Most got weeded out, some stuck around.. After all there was a time where a Bulldog had to prove itself worthy (2x win in matching) in order to even be registered as an APBT. Thus, you were running a fraud yard you had yourself fraud dogs and everyone knew it. It was proven and proof is ALWAYS in the puddin.. Results in other words, look back over history, pedigree and genetics and all your "big names", you can't fake it. Pedigrees sometimes questioned but results proved it sometimes doesn't matter.

You had some Pit Dogs that had no known pedigree, picked up off the streets and kept, saw somethin' special and the rest is history. When you been in it for so long and produce a consistent amount of Game Dogs or producers, you develop a keen eye.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

These men did thing for different reasons and every one will have diffrenet oppinons and reactions to what was done. You have your PP tyoes that seem to just put as many diwn off of their popular dogs to make a buck. My only problem with the Carver dogs is it seems more often it was credit taken for other mens hard work by naming his own dogs on another man's dogs litter. 

Guess I cantcomplain to much cause I have seen some great carver dogs!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Tudor, Carver, Patrick, SK, Castro,Eddington, Parker etc.. etc.. the list is endless.. all have been known to send dogs with faulty paperwork wether it was to cover up the true breeding or formula so no one would use their secret source of good ol blood.. or its just a simple hustle. 

The reason to work with genuine people with genuine dogs... there are only a few sub strains or strains that are trustworty in all reality. In almost every pedigree there is a dog that got rung or is down from a dog that got rung. All them stolen greats were re registered as another dog, ELI supposedly disappeared into ARK, there were many great dogs that this happened to. They werent all Carver dogs, Carver just had a good pull on it. Carver got the reminence from the old colby and old family stuff ..See Gr CH Banjo (disect ped) A perfect blend of the old stuff inbred into each other generation after generation. Carver was the man a LOT of dog men looked up to or his stock. However everyone knew what he was doing. ALligators mom was carver dog of OF and old colby, and was bred back into her for the Rufus dog. Note "Half a Century with the APBT": Carver told me, you don't want any of those.." later gave him a pup.. " Was that litter a rung litter? Probably, read the book. 

Earl Tudor. " People put to much on papers, good dogs are where you find em" 
Earl was not a great breeder, he was a great action guy who had an eye for a winning dog. 

Heinzl, Norrod, and Colby in the right hands are the most genuine pedigrees your gonna get. The pure Clouse thats out there is also managed by "shady" thinking folks when it comes to bulldog ethics or maybe they are keeping their formula secret?.. Either way.. IF YOUR CONCERNED ABOUT GENUINE AND HONESTY.. Do you homework and select your source. I myself am going with pure old timers because I know I can get any dog I like that has already been produced out of those old dogs from those sources down from old men or the old men themselves. With that I'll know that when I pull out the bulldog it will have a solid Colby, Colby/ Heinzl, Hammonds pedigree.. WHY .. cause the dogs are honest to the pedigree the DNA map. IF breeding is whats important to you then pick a source of genuine good dog etticate.


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

well put fh.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> Tudor, Carver, Patrick, SK, Castro,Eddington, Parker etc.. etc.. the list is endless.. all have been known to send dogs with faulty paperwork wether it was to cover up the true breeding or formula so no one would use their secret source of good ol blood.. or its just a simple hustle.
> 
> The reason to work with genuine people with genuine dogs... there are only a few sub strains or strains that are trustworty in all reality. In almost every pedigree there is a dog that got rung or is down from a dog that got rung. All them stolen greats were re registered as another dog, ELI supposedly disappeared into ARK, there were many great dogs that this happened to. They werent all Carver dogs, Carver just had a good pull on it. Carver got the reminence from the old colby and old family stuff ..See Gr CH Banjo (disect ped) A perfect blend of the old stuff inbred into each other generation after generation. Carver was the man a LOT of dog men looked up to or his stock. However everyone knew what he was doing. ALligators mom was carver dog of OF and old colby, and was bred back into her for the Rufus dog. Note "Half a Century with the APBT": Carver told me, you don't want any of those.." later gave him a pup.. " Was that litter a rung litter? Probably, read the book.
> 
> ...


GREAT post.. beat me to it with regarding to the need of hiding formulas,, even today in private traditional yards there is a need to hide their foundations and or formula to stacking pedigree from the public as duplication is high and really writes all the hard work.. back then even more so as the recipe for winning eachman varied and the need for some secrecy was fairly high.. plenty of stolen dogs showed wash due to.b untrained eyes and hands due to not knowing what they genetically had thus paired with the wrong dog and or blood..

Many reasons for the past actions and majority had a significant reasoning behind to protection gain or the animal or both


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

yup and there is a secret name .. LOL that Tudor papered a good portion of stolen or rung or private stock under... Im sure a couple of you know the name, we've touched on this before and you can find the peds online.


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

Firehazard said:


> Tudor, Carver, Patrick, SK, Castro,Eddington, Parker etc.. etc.. the list is endless.. all have been known to send dogs with faulty paperwork wether it was to cover up the true breeding or formula so no one would use their secret source of good ol blood.. or its just a simple hustle.
> 
> The reason to work with genuine people with genuine dogs... there are only a few sub strains or strains that are trustworty in all reality. In almost every pedigree there is a dog that got rung or is down from a dog that got rung. All them stolen greats were re registered as another dog, ELI supposedly disappeared into ARK, there were many great dogs that this happened to. They werent all Carver dogs, Carver just had a good pull on it. Carver got the reminence from the old colby and old family stuff ..See Gr CH Banjo (disect ped) A perfect blend of the old stuff inbred into each other generation after generation. Carver was the man a LOT of dog men looked up to or his stock. However everyone knew what he was doing. ALligators mom was carver dog of OF and old colby, and was bred back into her for the Rufus dog. Note "Half a Century with the APBT": Carver told me, you don't want any of those.." later gave him a pup.. " Was that litter a rung litter? Probably, read the book.
> 
> ...


well said!


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

Do you reckon many folks are thinking"if i knew then what i know now". I know i am,and not ashamed to admit it.for a long time been a 1 man 1 dog type will continue that also.asked my paw a 1000 times why didnt u reg. those dogs.early on he said" you got gd dogs why you need papers later said"dammed if i know"lol.thanks for the replys folks.bum arm got me sitting and reading too much.just looking for ops. from the more educated.:clap:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

welder said:


> Do you reckon many folks are thinking"if i knew then what i know now". I know i am,and not ashamed to admit it.for a long time been a 1 man 1 dog type will continue that also.asked my paw a 1000 times why didnt u reg. those dogs.early on he said" you got gd dogs why you need papers later said"dammed if i know"lol.thanks for the replys folks.bum arm got me sitting and reading too much.just looking for ops. from the more educated.:clap:


Everyone starts some where and anyone who says they don't have that moment of, "if i knew then what i know now" they are full of ..

No matter how much experience one has, no matter how much hands on, you will make mistakes and eventually forget more than you know.. Only so much one mind can intake before beginning to forget.


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

lol - that is the truth right there. You can only fit so much in there, and then you start scanning pedigrees sub consciencly while you are supposed to sleep. LOL
Only way to know is to talk to others about their ventures, in like mind.
Just came across the post someone did on the article from the 98 mag F.R.
Never came across it and going to read it. Sun is out, almost noon, time to hit the streets for a walk , heck probably three. talk to you all later and thank everyone for the help..i need it!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

KMdogs said:


> Everyone starts some where and anyone who says they don't have that moment of, "if i knew then what i know now" they are full of ..
> 
> No matter how much experience one has, no matter how much hands on, you will make mistakes and eventually forget more than you know.. Only so much one mind can intake before beginning to forget.


:rofl::rofl::clap::clap::clap::rofl::rofl: indeed..........


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

thats why i like to see the breeding being done and take pictures. plus my brothers have had the exact same line for almost 30yrs now. and their yards are closed to the public. in order to get one from them you got to know someone, or if your close enuf they'll give you one. 
thats why i command so a high price, i know how much of someones life is invested in that one dog. or i'll give you one with a deal. 

as far as the clouse, OFRN stuff, i know THE TOP BREEDERS of them, yes they can be a little harsh for some peoples liking. but all in all their good people, got their dogs best interest in mind.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

^ liken the way you think...


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

OFRN, now you're talking! Firehazard's favorite LOL.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

well then firehazard, you would of to have seen my first dogs, all down off that hemphill geronimo stuff, when we showed up at the adba shows 4 or 5 trucks loaded with all one kind of dog OFRN's we'd show up always 10-15 dogs, back then i liked the cropped ear look so you can imagine, but we'd show up not know a soul and win all the blue ribbons.

was fun and got to meet a lot of people thru the shows believe it or not. but after a couple yrs i was introduced to a crowd more my age, i hasd been under this guys wing for 2yrs, learned alot about the dogs, his best friend was a marine also, that had some FANTASTIC dogs eg. gr. ch. outlaw, gr ch. spike, and gr ch. rufus so by proxy iwas learning from the ones that were out there. but when i started runnin with my age crowd i got lucky and saw how big it gets. but iwas very very green about the dogs when i started but i listened and paid attention.

take care, yis


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

surfer said:


> well then firehazard, you would of to have seen my first dogs, all down off that hemphill geronimo stuff, when we showed up at the adba shows 4 or 5 trucks loaded with all one kind of dog OFRN's we'd show up always 10-15 dogs, back then i liked the cropped ear look so you can imagine, but we'd show up not know a soul and win all the blue ribbons.
> 
> was fun and got to meet a lot of people thru the shows believe it or not. but after a couple yrs i was introduced to a crowd more my age, i hasd been under this guys wing for 2yrs, learned alot about the dogs, his best friend was a marine also, that had some FANTASTIC dogs eg. gr. ch. outlaw, gr ch. spike, and gr ch. rufus so by proxy iwas learning from the ones that were out there. but when i started runnin with my age crowd i got lucky and saw how big it gets. but iwas very very green about the dogs when i started but i listened and paid attention.
> 
> take care, yis


LOL, Surfer, it is I who enjoy the OFRN. I was just using my witty humor to jab at Firehazard (Stan) a bit! While he does have respect for the OFRN, he is more into the cheesy variety....Colby that is. See, there I go again...sorry Stan, you know I jest and hope I didn't speak out of turn about your passion for Colbyoke:


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> LOL, Surfer, it is I who enjoy the OFRN. I was just using my witty humor to jab at Firehazard (Stan) a bit! While he does have respect for the OFRN, he is more into the cheesy variety....Colby that is. See, there I go again...sorry Stan, you know I jest and hope I didn't speak out of turn about your passion for Colbyoke:


Some just know one can't do with out the other... Oops may have stepped out of line lol. Just messing with you, you intellectual heavy weights are to much for me so sometimes so I love to sit back and watch y'all go rounds about this. Fuel to the fire


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

oh st, fran, that was cold, you got me to do the dirty work, but no matter that was good, sorry bout that FIRE ,
well then st fran, YOU would've loved to have been rollin up with us at the shows. like i said i was into the cropped ear look, so they all had cropped ears BBBBAAAADDDDD lookin red dogs, always at least 10-15 dogs went with us,

but the real fun part was gettin a chance to meet the dogmen of that time. MKR., J. EDWARDS, G. WILLIAMS, BARNEY FIFE, PATH FINDER, R. WADE,P. POWELL J.KING, BIRD DOG, F. ROCCA, FAT BILL, H. HARGROVES, B. FINLEY, AND MANY MORE. it was different then.

actually until about '90' nc was bout one of the last states to really start crackin down, the law was passed in 1976. and nc was fine with it. lot of it was quiet country folk, then the urban areas started getting swamped with bulldogs and irresponsible owners. a powder keg of disaster. that was 20yrs ago, nowadays, i try to show respect and not be afraid to praise someone who is trying. this generation of dogmen & dogwomen they're the ones takin over next. but the best advice i could suggest to someone thinkin about this way of life, and thats what it is 'a way of life' whether you have one dog or one hundred dogs. is TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND. i promise you ask any one of them what they think about their dogs.
first thing their gonna do is smile, cause their gonna love tellin you about their dog. so grab a seat. bulldog fever its a terrible thing, take care yis


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Oh.. the glory days, wished I coulda been older to enjoy the Golden yrs of bulldoggin'..

Yeah I love the OFRN, my first passion and my gramps really didn't like any other bulldog, not really.. So its down through him and the respect for him (as someone said earlier) that the love was handed down. Yep, Colby.. and yep Rudy  that covers my view in a snippet.

I woulda loved to see the OFRN dogs of 25 yrs ago with adult eyes I have today.. I was more interested in pigs back then, haha. They all(the dogs) looked like red devils to me back then. Grampa had one with hound like ears but he didnt have him later when I moved to town with him after he sold the pig farm, soon after that he started rescuing wolves. 

Yeh Im shifting gears into Colby, dont think I wouldnt accept a genuine tight 7gen clouse too though.. And if the right geronimo II blood was offered, that would be hands down. Im all about untainted and genuine dogs, peds, and of course genuine dog men/women. 

yes.. bulldog fever is like crazy glue, its surgical and takes for ever to wear off.. LOL


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

It is to true stan Any more any good honest blood you can get can blend into great bulldogs...


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Oh.. the glory days, wished I coulda been older to enjoy the Golden yrs of bulldoggin'..
> 
> Yeah I love the OFRN, my first passion and my gramps really didn't like any other bulldog, not really.. So its down through him and the respect for him (as someone said earlier) that the love was handed down. Yep, Colby.. and yep Rudy  that covers my view in a snippet.
> 
> ...


...and you just can't stop yourself from smelling it too! Did I see "red devil" mentioned?


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Rudy4747 said:


> Some just know one can't do with out the other... Oops may have stepped out of line lol. Just messing with you, you intellectual heavy weights are to much for me so sometimes so I love to sit back and watch y'all go rounds about this. Fuel to the fire


Someone has to stir the pot once in awhile...is that a spoon in your hand? LOL


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Haha have to say I love have you guys here to talk dogs. No offence I get board sometimes with the look at my dog what is he and the same ol same ole.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

surfer said:


> oh st, fran, that was cold, you got me to do the dirty work, but no matter that was good, sorry bout that FIRE ,
> well then st fran, YOU would've loved to have been rollin up with us at the shows. like i said i was into the cropped ear look, so they all had cropped ears BBBBAAAADDDDD lookin red dogs, always at least 10-15 dogs went with us,
> 
> but the real fun part was gettin a chance to meet the dogmen of that time. MKR., J. EDWARDS, G. WILLIAMS, BARNEY FIFE, PATH FINDER, R. WADE,P. POWELL J.KING, BIRD DOG, F. ROCCA, FAT BILL, H. HARGROVES, B. FINLEY, AND MANY MORE. it was different then.
> ...




Good stuff surfer, and sound advice. Actually, being a city dweller, I've only met one true dogman...my breeder. He's been at it for a LONG time, and his knowledge of the breed makes my head spin. You don't know how green you are until you meet someone that's been in the game their whole life. I've got a buddy who is very close to the same breeder and so I try to educate myself in a second hand way as well. Obviously, the info shared on this site has opened my eyes, and my ears also. I doubt I could cut it as a dogman, but I've done just fine with the few bulldogs I've had over the past 19 years...they've always been my pride and joy. Wouldn't, and haven't owned anything else.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> *Good stuff surfer, and sound advice.* Actually, being a city dweller, I've only met one true dogman...my breeder. He's been at it for a LONG time, and his knowledge of the breed makes my head spin. You don't know how green you are until you meet someone that's been in the game their whole life. I've got a buddy who is very close to the same breeder and so* I try to educate myself in a second hand way as well.* Obviously, the info shared on this site has opened my eyes, and my ears also. I doubt I could cut it as a dogman, but I've done just fine with the few bulldogs I've had over the past 19 years...they've always been my pride and joy. Wouldn't, and haven't owned anything else.


well said.. I agree, :cheers:


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

well,well,well, then FIRE & RUDY you probly dont want to hear my take on the colby/OFRN situation. if i hadnt got ther point across, i'm a fan of a good solid redboy breeding, i have 2 loosely line bred lines that are near perfect, starting with BINGO one side is DEACON the other side is MR BULLDOG. 

so have you heard the stories on how redboy was bred?????? a lot of folks think its colby thru howard teals stuff, but the other point of veiw is that he's OFRN, due to location. the story goes when he gave bass the dog he didnt have papers, but a cpl hrs later bass told howard he wanted papers so he reached in his shirt pocket pulled out a piece of paper, looked at redboy, and said' he looks like ............ then there was papers on redboy. but alot of folks think he's OFRN because of location, and looks in nc/sc and got them old hound dog looking ears ,structure was not like the colby dogs either. colby blocky muscular dogs, redboy hound lookin, and color. colby white and brindles some blacks. redboy all red dogs food for thought 

yis


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I don't know besides his color looks like a colby dog. Longer body lose elbows and a streight back end. Looks to me like a colby dog and that neblett out well seem to work in my mind. But I could see how it looks that way too... he produced a good nomber of red dogs. I have heard the arguememt couple of timesbut havent chosen to believe it.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

yeah I've heard about every version of that.. no matter how much I love OFRN .. I know that Colby is part building block to it. I also know that COLBY and CORVINO were GOOD FRIENDS and its the wannabe dogmen between them that caused all the ruckus.. Professionall COLBY won over OFRN more times than not.. HOWEVER we all know that OFRN had their hay day on some Colby dogs as well.. Just look at the SEARCY VS IMPII essentially is what that is. That is one of my favorites and I love to use that bit of history. However I still know that COLBY deserves the recognition as foundation to near all bulldogs and part foundatoin to OFRN. Braddock,Armitage, Clark.. near all colby.

Today all the OFRN folks love to talk smack however there is a entire line of colby dogs that has been steadily proven through the 90s into common era. We can find all sorts of CH and GR CH COlby or near all COLBY dogs. meanwhile.. 

Redboy.. well heres my point with that.. BACK Then.. they were virtually the same, Colby has red dogs just with black noses. Redboy was a red dog with a near black nose the red was so dark.. SO in all I know about genetics and dogs and history. Redboy was either 3/4 colby/ofrn as papered or he was the opposite ofrn/colby either way thats how those genes worked when spliced together old world bulldogs almost always FIRE. I've seen BINGO  yes he was a genuine OFRN by my standards as well and I used to be big on REDBOY being an out for both ofrn and colby as well as them still using each other as outs instead of all the RUNG battlebred hounds. WHICH is why I dropped JRB .. Im a genetic hobbyiest and I love being a breeder; however I do math and the punit and look at all the ancestors so I NEED those pedigrees to be honest... WHich is why as OFRN goes there are maybe one or two sources I know I can trust. I'd rather have that tight clouse(but they have to be honest with the ped).. 

I think dogmen just forgot something Heinzl said "the faster they start, the faster they quit"  .. now we have a nation full of hard mouthed curs.. pick a sub strain. 

Surfer this is how I look at it. COLBY and OFRN are the STRAIN that all the SUB STRAINS of bulldogs today come from. 

WOLF-species
DOG-sub species
BULLDOG-strain
Families- sub strain.. 

I prove every wrong even myself.. hell as a republican I just proved myself wrong about welfare too.. In the premble for the USA .. "TO MAINTAIN WELFARE" .. :rofl: just thought that was funny.


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

The point is really the links between the key midwest breeders and the East coast Breeders. These ties go further than dogs and have for generations. The country was built on corruption and still is. When you think about the folks that were the supposedly behind the dogs, and look at the images. Colby,teals/shivars(OF blood), the Nebbletts Colby/OFcross,. Notice all them dogs(OF aint all red/reds..
lil Tudor through the maloney's. Red boy looks just like he should based on pedigree, if you ask me.
So ---there is OFRN in Redboy. Right?
Firehazard - spot on with his post, but you should have already known.
Basic breeding vocabulary, defines as such. All about how you grasp it aint that right?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

That is real as it gets... ^^^^ truth needs no agenda as truth is simply that. 

how we Grasp.. absolutely upruns:


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I have infinite enough respect for some Colby history and yards however i have never seen a public yard offer nothing but wash in terms of the family Bulldog; Though shouldn't be much surprise as majority of public yards are in the same boat.

Colby in modern day has gotten a bit washed, most popular by name and one of the most popular in pedigree.. In many areas thus you have a larger percentage of "AST" dog in the line.. Show or Pet Stock. 

However you can't dismiss the work and the genetic pool entirely as it has already been said here.. and there.. and again. Not in particular my cup of tea, haven't ran across a knit bred Colby that gave me what i needed although if i were looking at a foundation Bulldog for program, You damn sure Colby would be there.

I see OFRN like this, in its entirety it is not particularly impressive however when you look at your Bulldogs and Pit Dogs of which were, they were bar none ACE! 

I'm not a believer in one strain or sub-strain is bar none, i favor what i do due to success and that success is all that matters for me. I stick with what works, bread trail leads back to both Colby and OFRN which goes back to part Colby when its all said and done. So does it truly matter?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

only if your a breeder... ^^^ otherwise its all about the individual dog and not the family or genetic herritage to pass on for the future ..  for everyone else, yeh.. not so much..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> only if your a breeder... ^^^ otherwise its all about the individual dog and not the family or genetic herritage to pass on for the future ..  for everyone else, yeh.. not so much..


Genetics are everything. For most it has nothing to due with anything other than gloating or having a good pet or conformation sound.

Give me Barracuda hounds all day long. Get it done. All else follows suit.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Stan, you don't really believe that OFRN has dissappeared through the 90's to common era, right? I'm not talking smack, and I'll just leave it at that so as not to bring trouble where it don't belong


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

what about a colby cuda cross? 
No OFRN is not gone, anyone with a computer knows where to get one. The phenotype may have slightly changed, well if you ask me. Size has also came down, due to the crosses made over time. I think the what is out there today would have made even the feller that gave up on them happy. They may not have had such a grasp on genetics back then, but they were enot worried about that as much as what was winning. Once a dog won, than it got to produce. all boils down to preservation in the end if you ask me.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

mccoypitbulls said:


> what about a colby cuda cross?
> No OFRN is not gone, anyone with a computer knows where to get one. The phenotype may have slightly changed, well if you ask me. Size has also came down, due to the crosses made over time. * I think the what is out there today would have made even the feller that gave up on them happy.* They may not have had such a grasp on genetics back then, but they were enot worried about that as much as what was winning. Once a dog won, than it got to produce. all boils down to preservation in the end if you ask me.


:cheers: to this... especially within the right stock :clap:

and NO not GONE... the real ones are where "we" know we can get them  all that other is wash JMO just as Colby.. one or two maybe a few good sources, the rest is wash... FOR both.. there are only two sources I would go to, and maybe a third if the Clouse fellas (lady) would come off old genuine blood... At this point its gotta be foundation or its a bust.. just for me and my bulldoggin practices and edicate or is that ettiquette LOL


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> :cheers: to this... especially within the right stock :clap:
> 
> and NO not GONE... the real ones are where "we" know we can get them  all that other is wash JMO just as Colby.. one or two maybe a few good sources, the rest is wash... FOR both.. there are only two sources I would go to, and maybe a third if the Clouse fellas (lady) would come off old genuine blood... At this point its gotta be foundation or its a bust.. just for me and my bulldoggin practices and edicate or is that ettiquette LOL


I'm glad you clarified your position. You know I am not trying to bust your hump, but rather to play "red" Devil's advocate....and please stop using those fancy french words:roll:


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

For sure :cheers: ...


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## mccoypitbulls (Nov 26, 2009)

Just like every line, if there are haters, they must be doing somethin right, right?
Anyone in their right mind, an apbt fancier, should admire all lines and not just one. Am I the only one that feels this way?

Hope this aint going to turn into another one of those......


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

No argument here. Everyone has their preferences for any number of reasons, myself included, but my admiration for the entire breed runs deep.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Don't think I could put any better guys :cheers: :cheers: to the all go to dog..


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