# Tell me about her PED! (APBT not AM BULLY)



## ScruffDaddy (Jan 15, 2013)

Ok - so I've love reading stuff here, and I am not one of those people that you are like trying to beat a dead horse. I know that "peds don't matter", and its not for any real PURPOSE(if not showing/competing), I just like to know a little because I am a big research geek and like I know my own family tree...so I enjoy knowing more about this history of my dog.

Secondly, you guys have seriously made a huge difference in my world with my girl... she has definitely been a different experience between her and my american bully that is 3 yrs. Here is her ped (this is actually her mother Scarlett Nova, I havent put Bella on there yet and it was a fatherXdaughter breeding back to her dad so Bella's Sire is also Lemon & Yogi Boots) I asked this question (sorta once) but never got very good insite. thanks in advance.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [380433] :: WOODS' SCARLETT NOVA


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

pretty good lil dog... well bred.. 

topside you have game stock coming in through yogi boots and lil hank by way of hank/boomerang with other usleton and that was pressed with Wilders/Hemphill UKC PR stuff on top and bottom on the top side~ make sense? what some call a battle cross.
You have alligator, sorrels, boomerang, hank, usleton all in the topside of your dog along with wilder/hemphill. 

Bottom side by way of russ' buck you have TONS of cottingham with slivers of redboy inthere, dirty red boy is doubled up on russ' buck and also linebred. They smashed that on top of a Halls/Jeep/Redboy dog.... 


So you have what laymen or some show folks call a battle cross OFRN  You have all the best battle blood there ever was to ask for and all the best from Wilder/Hemphill... good lil dog.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

not real familiar with the top half, but the bottom half i'm 
very familiar with, since thats all my blood, thru the robinson stuff.

russ' buck from cottingham, off boomer was a good dog and producer.

boomer is listed as a 3x winner, but what most people dont know is he also has a loss,

the reason i know this is because he lost to my buddy's dog, 'bullhead' 

documented in the SDJ. 

but the bottom half of your dog is from solid bulldogs, congrats


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Is that your dog in your profile pic? The black and white? If so, I have a question for Stan-- you said she is battle cross OFRN...what is that? And what how come the dog is black if it is some sort of OFRN?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Is that your dog in your profile pic? The black and white? If so, I have a question for Stan-- you said she is battle cross OFRN...what is that? And what how come the dog is black if it is some sort of OFRN?











dog in ped .. not dog in avatar... also by lookin at the dogs stacked.. I put a quick scan on it and threw up the outline. Each one of those dogs originated where? OF source thus why they brought in the OFRN and you can see several times in the topside where they spliced in the UKC pr stock.. Cottingham speaks for itself in source and of course the redboy outs.

I used battle cross for those who use it; to me.. its an honest red nosed bulldog and one that can honestly be an OFRN representive managed approapriately.Be a good one for your lil pup too.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Ooooooh ok  haha! I understand now -- not sure why I thought the OP was talking about the pup in the avatar


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

fire, is right, damn if he dont know his stuff,
you better be on your game to get into a good dog discussion with him.

but i am very familiar with the bottom half of her ped. those are 'solid' bulldogs.
theres no shame in that pedigree.

and yes there has been a few 'black' redboy dogs.

one of the best redboy boys ever 'britches' a black brindle.

color dont mean much, its just the hide that covers the MOST important thing, the HEART


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Could make a pretty good foundation dog for some catch weight dogs as well.

Solid dog.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

surfer said:


> fire, is right, damn if he dont know his stuff,
> you better be on your game to get into a good dog discussion with him.
> 
> but i am very familiar with the bottom half of her ped.* those are 'solid' bulldogs.
> ...


:goodpost: :goodpost: some good reminders right there 

and thanks man.. I study pedigrees and holy texts.. kinda OCD I guess.


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## ScruffDaddy (Jan 15, 2013)

The chocolate/red dog in the pictures is Bella's mother - now Bella in her pictures appears to be very solid black/white... but her black is starting to have an underlying red in it... Her father (yogi boots) is actually a solid seal color. I really appreciate all the insight. We have a 3 yr old bully - which personality wise they are COMPLETE opposites.

So that is why I was looking for some insite. She is just completely different. Enthusiastic, hard headed... extremely high pray drive ( I can hardly take her for a walk )... and she is only about 30 pounds or so right now (6 months) and she does NOT back down from our 85 pound am bully - at all. She has NO FEAR!

Here is bella, same pic inside my avatar. I know more way more about bully's and have already gotten so many questions about if we are going to breed her. But honestly, I just don't know enough about the apbt. And the more I am realizing what a special little girl I got... the more I would want to NOT mess up breeding such a good girl. But it's hard not too think about just because I think the old school apbt is diminishing so quickly. But like I said, don't wanna do anything that is not fully done right... and not done with the correct mate. THANKS GUYS! Bell -

Like I said... her black, more and more is getting an underlying "seal color to it". Her mother's litter mate (the choclate dog in the pictures) has a brother that is nearly 70 lbs conditioned... talk about some big yard dogs (seen him in person.) Her mother Nova is about 50 lbs and Yogi Boots about the same or a tad smaller.



















these were actually almost a month ago - need to take some updated pics - here is an OLD one where she just about 3 months with our bully ScruffDaddy (screen name)










Let me know what you think guys. You rock!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

So is the pedigree of her mother?? .. I had Hoagie one black nose sired by two black noses (Halls Garner Sorrells Lonzo outta JBs Boneyard) he threw mostly red noses as well even when bred to another black nosed dog. It was the Lonzo and Snooty in there that fuzed behind that boudreaux which is built almost soley on blind billy...

this is why Colby clan and OFRN clan go head to head... JMO (other than a sliver they have the same source in foundation) IF that is your dogs full pedigree .. that goes to show that when a black nose turns up in predominately OFRN bred dogs they are a near spittin image of old battle stock COLBY. If its not again it goes to show when you mix OFRN with any game dog strain depending on how that is bred and where it originated you'll get basically a game ass OFRN or essentially a COLBY (not colby bred essentially the same dog that started the OFRN strains of colby/con feeley "PADDY" origin. Dormant gene resurfaced.) Dogs do breed true... 20,000+ ancestors true  you gotta lock down 7-10 (10 IMO) to build a family, such as boudreaux or hammonds halls patrick colby norrod.. etc... Not many breeders understand nor know how to maintain and pull from their stock and manage breeding accordingly.

I just seen a black nosed dog that was produced by a red nose and a blue nose.. IM still trying to figure that one out both in the [punit] and by deep ped search and ponder. Thats like 1 in 10,000 chances.. they should be a champange, light seal, or red or blue.. :hammer: that racks my brain.

again if the dog pictured in the pedigree is your dogs mom, then the ped is your dogs mom. correct? who was she bred to? doesn't have it listed.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Edit***Bahahahahaha! ok so you can ignore my question below as we posted at the same time and i think i mostly get it...***

The OP said this pup is froma father daughter breeding so the dam's sire is also his pup's sire  
Ok so I guess my question is there still since she is the black/white dog in the pic! Haha! I know FireHazard knows his stuff that is why I am wondering how can an OFRN dog be black? Or maybe there is a difference in battle cross OFRNs and normal OFRNs? Again I know this might be a totally dumb question...hehe


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> this is why Colby clan and OFRN clan go head to head... JMO (other than a sliver they have the same source in foundation) IF that is your dogs full pedigree .. that goes to show that when a black nose turns up in predominately OFRN bred dogs they are a near spittin image of old battle stock COLBY. If its not again it goes to show when you mix OFRN with any game dog strain depending on how that is bred and where it originated you'll get basically a game ass OFRN or essentially a COLBY (not colby bred essentially the same dog that started the OFRN strains of colby/con feeley "PADDY" origin. Dormant gene resurfaced.) Dogs do breed true... 20,000+ ancestors true  you gotta lock down 7-10 (10 IMO) to build a family, such as boudreaux or hammonds halls patrick colby norrod.. etc... Not many breeders understand nor know how to maintain and pull from their stock and manage breeding accordingly..


This is pretty interesting and I think answers my question


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Edit***Bahahahahaha! ok so you can ignore my question below as we posted at the same time and i think i mostly get it...***
> 
> The OP said this pup is froma father daughter breeding so the day's sire is also his pup's sire
> Ok so I guess my question is there still since she is the black/white dog in the pic! Haha! I know FireHazard knows his stuff that is why I am wondering how can an OFRN dog be black? Or maybe there is a difference in battle cross OFRNs and normal OFRNs? Again I know this might be a totally dumb question...hehe


NOT A RED NOSE HUH!!! ... well then she has to be an OF throwback  if shes double sired by a seal dog into a red nose dog then she should be seal herself. Black Seal as listed as her sire. IF the pedigree is honest then she has the same building blocks in foundation as many OFRN.

OFRN started with OF black nosed buckskin and black brindle and black dogs.. BESIDES LIGHTNER who already had big red red dogs.

EXample:


> Look at boudreaux built on blind billy look at loposay built on colby put the to together you have jeep inbreed jeep to the max you have red noses.. just a color.. but its a color that shows its heritage as well. Redboy had a seal type of nose, it wasn't red.. it wasn't black.. sometimes it look red sometimes it looked black. Redboy was 3/4 colby 1/4 OFRN and people still argue about that ped as OFRN will use a redboy. Like was mentioned there are near pure redboy dogs that are black or blk brindled. Everyone will use redboy it seems.. LOL if he was OFRN then SEAL nosed dogs are accepted as OFRN if the pedigree is honest to the genetic making of the dog. (scarcasm at spats) To me in this time and point in history, OFRN represent a sertain batch of old blood collectively kept together even when taken back to game strains that originated from OFRN itself. This dog could be bred OFRN very easily and no one ever miss a lick. . Genetically everything here: its all the same with diferent variables, that diversity you need as a family breeder, shes still a good piece to the puzzle.


IMO you have an old school dog. look at all the corvino dogs, heinzl dogs, feeley dogs, and Colby of the early 1900s  She is built very much like them and holds the dark color scheme of those dogs before the red noses. If you have a pedigree that reads like that or is mostly heinzl hubbard and tudors corvino most people .. are gonna assume OFRN then you show em a black dog. OH  ..  Not really...

Tudors red bill
Tudors Sandri
Tudors lucky
Tudors Spike
Tudors Black jack
Tudors spider
tudors john .. . tudors list is endless... his colby, paddy, and of are all of origin 
Corvinos Gimp 
Corvinos AKA Tudors Goldie etc.. etc... 
Komosinski had near pure armitage aka colby kager aka Clarks tramp; bred dogs.. Jeff was white with black nose.. 
Clouses Stabber
Clouses buthcer boy who come from ^^^ tudor and trice bred dogs down from Colby X corcoron. 
Hemphill built on Tudor, Feeley, Corcoron... primarily some lightner
wilder got most from hemphill .. Hemphill Geronimo is built on wreckless red, who was built on oldies and the only thing that lines up in the 7 of that building block is colby. The other is placing lightener, w/ irish colby stock.

Red nose is just a color... it was OF ... then the red noses kicked in. OFRN.. Most all OFRN goes back to Corvino, Heinzl, Corcoron, Colby,.. select few strains are mainly lightner and corcoron they've been heavily influenced by Colby paddy blood since the men themselves were still alive. ITS the pedigree and how a dog was bred that keep them in the ability to be honest OF/OFRN or Colby

hope your not confused.. I gotta go.. got some drama myself today. Dam dogs got out and kille neighbors chickens and lil dog.. FK!!!


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> So is the pedigree of her mother?? .. I had Hoagie one black nose sired by two black noses (Halls Garner Sorrells Lonzo outta JBs Boneyard) he threw mostly red noses as well even when bred to another black nosed dog. It was the Lonzo and Snooty in there that fuzed behind that boudreaux which is built almost soley on blind billy...
> 
> this is why Colby clan and OFRN clan go head to head... JMO (other than a sliver they have the same source in foundation) IF that is your dogs full pedigree .. that goes to show that when a black nose turns up in predominately OFRN bred dogs they are a near spittin image of old battle stock COLBY. If its not again it goes to show when you mix OFRN with any game dog strain depending on how that is bred and where it originated you'll get basically a game ass OFRN or essentially a COLBY (not colby bred essentially the same dog that started the OFRN strains of colby/con feeley "PADDY" origin. Dormant gene resurfaced.) Dogs do breed true... 20,000+ ancestors true  you gotta lock down 7-10 (10 IMO) to build a family, such as boudreaux or hammonds halls patrick colby norrod.. etc... Not many breeders understand nor know how to maintain and pull from their stock and manage breeding accordingly.
> 
> ...


Mother Nature still has a few tricks up her sleeve huh?, punit be damned. As for the OFRN Colby debate...not touching it LOL! Opinions will vary...and always will as far as history goes


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Firehazard said:


> NOT A RED NOSE HUH!!! ... well then she has to be an OF throwback  if shes double sired by a seal dog into a red nose dog then she should be seal herself. Black Seal as listed as her sire. IF the pedigree is honest then she has the same building blocks in foundation as many OFRN.
> 
> OFRN started with OF black nosed buckskin and black brindle and black dogs.. BESIDES LIGHTNER who already had big red red dogs.
> 
> ...


Oh I totally get it now! Thanks for taking the time to help me understand  as you know I am such a nube about this stuff.

Oh gosh hope the neighbor drama cools down-- sounds like an awful situation!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

COol beans.. . nah man, I gotta pay a small fine or go to court or both.. My KBD led two of my bulldogs out of the yard along with my schipperke, all house dogs. The KBD slipped right through the wire and started filleting chickens; with the bulldogs and skeeter dog barking ..... man in uproar follows them here chasing them off, pretty much tries everything to get me to throw attitude, but he's in the right. I called the sheriff myself, the man was really pissed off he couldn't scare me with his AK threats nor threats of calling the sheriff. I offered to pay for the chickens and he refused and sped off.. Sheriff says I'll have to contact court but becaues of the instance and the fact that no bulldogs attacked, he threatend with AK, and under 200 dollars in damages, I should be good with a verbal warning that costs me some money. 

If it can happen it will happen... :flush:


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

cuz, he threatened YOU with an AK? or yo dogs?....any how he was on your property with a weapon.seems to me bro this should cancel each other out.


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

i do admire your temper tho.


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

it do git dark in Idaho dont it?...........hehehehe a lil recon over the hill bout 3 am.... couple flash bangs.......... time for him to clean his drawers.hehehehe


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

There are all soorts of good ol boy militias up here.. I know the kind.  

Thanks man, yep.. he didnt have an ak but I have no doubt he had a pistol and there is no doubt he knew I had a pistol and my dog. He threatend me and the dogs.. I can bring my ak down here.. I chuckled and he said and shoot all your dogs.. which in Idaho is a threat against property. Im lucky I got my dogs back. IMO I was gettin breakfeast together, my dogs caught me slippin... If the shoe was reversed, there would be one to 3 dead dogs of the four; for attacking livestock. Understandable. I wouldnt even bother looking for the owner. I'd laid the dogs out there with all my dead chickens for the owner to clean up when he found his dogs.  So I do feel blessed. As far as threats.. LOL yeh... I gave him a lil cushion for my dogs. Especially cause I thought his wifes lil dog got, got. Not the case. They just panicked about their lil dog. When he rolled up into all the NO Tresspassing signs threatening he pretty much countered my own misdemeanor of having allowed a dog to kill livestock.. it will balance out come monday. Let the fools hang themselves; never pull a firearm unless I use it, ain't skeered, shoulda seen the look on his face. I said oh well now your threating me in Idaho on private property, that aint legal. He got real pissy and said he coulda shot em on his property, I said yes and you should've, I would've.. He said well I can see we're getting nowhere here, Im a call the sheriff.. I picked up my cell and said go ahead they know me on first name basis, I call em myself.  's and giggles man... 

Now if he'd threatened with a physical and visible gun, I'd be in jail or still under investigation... probablly still as calm. Inside like a tornado.. 


THREAD JACK~ my bad...


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Just out of curiosity Stan, when do you include, if you do that is, the importance of the first 5 generations? I understand that the "roots" of a bulldog are determining factors and that such and such bulldog may "look" old school, but I also know that the percentages decrease as you go further down the line comparatively speaking. I also know what happens when you add a bit of black paint to pure white paint...and it doesn't have to be much. I suppose I place more emphasis on the current state of the bulldog than you do but wanted to get your rationale. Perhaps you see what the bulldog could be thru the "purifying" backward breeding (something else a bit foggy to me, like polishing a turd LOL), whereas I would see the bulldog standing in front of me. IDK


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> Just out of curiosity Stan, when do you include, if you do that is, the importance of the first 5 generations? I understand that the "roots" of a bulldog are determining factors and that such and such bulldog may "look" old school, but I also know that the percentages decrease as you go further down the line comparatively speaking. I also know what happens when you add a bit of black paint to pure white paint...and it doesn't have to be much. I suppose I place more emphasis on the current state of the bulldog than you do but wanted to get your rationale. Perhaps you see what the bulldog could be thru the "purifying" backward breeding (something else a bit foggy to me, like polishing a turd LOL), whereas I would see the bulldog standing in front of me. IDK


Well sir, its like this ... its the foundation of an entire SUB strain 

that sub strain was well pick dog centipede or peterbuilt or hubbards bounce ... and the dogmen took dogs from them and bred it tight.. purifying the traits in that dog. When you take another strain from similar or the same origin kept tight bred in another way you can see the extremities of each sub strain or line as its often called. The strain is COLBy and OF/OFRN (by way of paddy being the heavyiest used of the irish dogs % wise.) I see the current dog; I see it all the way to the skeleton features and the way it breaths let alone acts runs and moves. Red or Black out of the same stock how they bred it after maintained color genetics but if kept within the family of origin or its own tight line the genes are very similar to that of the other except color. Alligator for instance was black with a body and lungs of an OFRN dog, the bone of the old OF dog and the english crushing mouth. When you see his ped it makes sense why he was the way he was inside and out.

The best way to describe mutation in color markers is this..

put two glasses on the table, one with milk the other with coffee ... add 1/3 cup of milk in the glass of coffee; as well add 1/3 cup of coffee to the milk.. how are they the same ?? how are they diffrent?? now try turning the coffee back black pour as much as needed and use a bigger containter.. do the same with milk, add more milk to change it back white... even with 2% or almond, rice, or soy.. this is the best way to understand dilluted colors.

OF .. OFR.. OFRN.. same genetics except those associated and different in color. If Blind Billy was OF and Boudreaux is built from Blind Billy with slivers of dogs like cotton's bullet and others of standing stature. Then what essentially is Boudreaux? OF genetically, but only that lil sliver that blind billy offered up and some from here and there from his outs. Some of sorrells, and others are the same way. Slivers of OFRN purified as a line under one or two dogs primarily. When you inbreed and linebreed what you've inbred you stack up on those traits in those dogs. When people say they have a pure redboy dog and by ped it is.. then % wise dna wise it is Redboy purified which is what? 3/4 colby/ofrn. SO that X itself and squared by itself square... repeated over and over: thats a pretty big punch of genetic manipulation. Loose as many as you tighten up on especially when color is selected and kept. You can't get out of the red mutation until you cross in a blk nose dog from the same stuff bred just as tight without the color seperation.. Thus the darker red and or outright dark chocolate coming from turtlebuster/OFRN crosses... Then you can keep breeding red and have a good amount to work with for a while before crossing out to another sub strain. ....

What Im saying you should like.. IF YOU Look at all the individiual sub strains more come from OF/OFRN or collaberation of that and Colby than Colby alone. HOWEVER OFRN as a strain of its own has not produced recorded as Colby. DOes that make sense? Carver? used heavy game colby by way of E Crenshaw and Sparks, but what did he settle with primarily?? Fitzwater/Trahan Rascal stuff... Heinzl started with OF and COlby and had OFRN and used more COlby stuff. Corvino took just as many COlby genetics in as he did lightner and corcoron some of which was already spliced with colby as well. This is why Carver and Tudor said to many get hung up on papers, other than dogmen like heinzl and lightener and colby and feeley well known family producers, for the masses it doesnt matter because they all come from a handfull of stock originally anyway. Sparks, Crenshaw, Cotton, some of the last [] born colby stock in the USA, it can go both ways  So really OFRN breeders when they use a well selected game out are really taking in a sub strain of itself most of the time. They are pulling in proven blood in every right.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> Well sir, its like this ... its the foundation of an entire SUB strain
> 
> that sub strain was well pick dog centipede or peterbuilt or hubbards bounce ... and the dogmen took dogs from them and bred it tight.. purifying the traits in that dog. When you take another strain from similar or the same origin kept tight bred in another way you can see the extremities of each sub strain or line as its often called. The strain is COLBy and OF/OFRN (by way of paddy being the heavyiest used of the irish dogs % wise.) I see the current dog; I see it all the way to the skeleton features and the way it breaths let alone acts runs and moves. Red or Black out of the same stock how they bred it after maintained color genetics but if kept within the family of origin or its own tight line the genes are very similar to that of the other except color. Alligator for instance was black with a body and lungs of an OFRN dog, the bone of the old OF dog and the english crushing mouth. When you see his ped it makes sense why he was the way he was inside and out.
> 
> ...


Thank you Stan for your explanation...I will digest it after reading thru it a few times LOL. While I got you, where has your historical research led you PRE Colby, pre Paddy, pre American importation? This is the timeframe that holds my interest. And I'm not trying to instigate a Colby/OFRN debate here. I just know that these bulldogs existed before dogmen's names were thrown around. I suppose documentation is hard to come by and instead you find the old "no one knows exactly where this bulldog or family came from" comment. Until those knots are untied then everyone will have a theory. Somewhere an old Irishman or Englishman is laughing at us.


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## ScruffDaddy (Jan 15, 2013)

Hey guys! So first off ... I just have to say WOW. Awesome thumbs up to everyone that replied here because it was some GREAT info for me. I want to help clear some stuff up because I am not the best at being clear sometimes. My fault lol

Yes, the dog I am talking about is the black/white dog in the picture. She is 7 months old now.

The ped is honest, I actually taker her to go visit her mom (Scarlett Nova), dad (Yogi), and brother on a regular basis because we became really good friends with the breeders. Her moms a bit of a spit fire, but the males sure seem to love her haha.

It is a father/daughter breeding so that is her full ped posted... 

Now, the funny thing is... since those pics were taken... her black is starting to get the reddish seal tint to it now. She was so black when she is little but is really lightening up, hard to tell in pics. In her litter in particular, there were actually 2 others that were also predominantly black with white markings.

I think its time I take some new pics of her. And maybe a youtube vid of the way she torments my ambully in the back yard. It's a riot. She just doesn't quit and his fat ass wears out quick haha ok. Talk to yall soon.


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## back2basics (Apr 9, 2012)

Saint Francis said:


> Thank you Stan for your explanation...I will digest it after reading thru it a few times LOL. While I got you, where has your historical research led you PRE Colby, pre Paddy, pre American importation? This is the timeframe that holds my interest. And I'm not trying to instigate a Colby/OFRN debate here. I just know that these bulldogs existed before dogmen's names were thrown around. I suppose documentation is hard to come by and instead you find the old "no one knows exactly where this bulldog or family came from" comment. Until those knots are untied then everyone will have a theory. Somewhere an old Irishman or Englishman is laughing at us.


There is plenty of information available and it points to more than one "source" and more than "one" country. Pre-importation is a pre-occupation for me for some time:thumbsup:


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## butterflygirl1111 (Jun 10, 2013)

I like the pedigree. Not verytight bred but a lot of good dogs in it. Those bomb squad dogs in there have ome old blood close up. Are all the dogs in the pedigree numbered? I mean when you look at the adba ped, do all the parents and grandparents have adba numbers?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

St francis all the things you ask is what led me to the creation of Turk... The original long legged bulldog. ... This is my favorite.

The first 5 gen always matter, thats a given... comes without being said. WHAT DO THEY REPRESENT??? for instance you could have a dog that is 75% redboy or Alligator or Banjo.. so everytime they stud or bred they're representing 75% pure "_______" which says alot. If the dogs scattered to the wind, well.. thats what is being represented and passed along .. scattered traits per DNA


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## ScruffDaddy (Jan 15, 2013)

butterfly girl - I disagree with the not bread tightly comment. Some of the dogs are UKC PR as already mentioned or ADBA - 

To everyone else. She is 7 months right now, wanted to get opinons on weight but I cant get her to stay still at the moment and I am thinking she is probably around 27-29 pounds.


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## APASA (Dec 27, 2010)

Firehazard said:


> So is the pedigree of her mother?? .. I had Hoagie one black nose sired by two black noses (Halls Garner Sorrells Lonzo outta JBs Boneyard) he threw mostly red noses as well even when bred to another black nosed dog. It was the Lonzo and Snooty in there that fuzed behind that boudreaux which is built almost soley on blind billy...
> 
> this is why Colby clan and OFRN clan go head to head... JMO (other than a sliver they have the same source in foundation) IF that is your dogs full pedigree .. that goes to show that when a black nose turns up in predominately OFRN bred dogs they are a near spittin image of old battle stock COLBY. If its not again it goes to show when you mix OFRN with any game dog strain depending on how that is bred and where it originated you'll get basically a game ass OFRN or essentially a COLBY (not colby bred essentially the same dog that started the OFRN strains of colby/con feeley "PADDY" origin. Dormant gene resurfaced.) Dogs do breed true... 20,000+ ancestors true  you gotta lock down 7-10 (10 IMO) to build a family, such as boudreaux or hammonds halls patrick colby norrod.. etc... Not many breeders understand nor know how to maintain and pull from their stock and manage breeding accordingly.
> 
> ...


Ok, genetics with you again  lol

Red noses and blue noses do not come from the same locus. (Yes I am using the genetic scientific- ish term I like. 

I also do not have the background info of the said black nosed dog's grandparents.

However.. Blue nose is a dilution of black eumelanin. Red nose is the browning of black eumelanin. Both dilution (dd) and browning (bb) are recessive

Note: Champaigne dogs have a slightly different color nose than a classic red nose. It is the result of first browning black eumelanin and then diluting it.

A champaigne dog will have (dd) and (bb)

A red nose dog can be (DD). The (bb) will give it the red nose. 
The blue nose dog can be (BB) and the (dd) will give it the blue.

The pups will be Dd and Bb or black with black noses.

If the red nosed parent is (Dd) and (bb) and Blue nosed parent is (dd) (Bb) then the pups can be Red, Blue, Champaigne or Black nosed.

Make any sense? However.. two blue nosed dogs cannot throw black and two red nosed parents cannot throw black. As you said they breed true.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Besides a few of us, not many understand traits, locus, mitochondria, etc... You'll see I've faded from using that particular word usage about 2yrs ago, unless Im in a good debate. Yup, its still a 1 in 1500 chance, because of the dilution... LOL not 1 in my exaggerated 10,000. You and genetics again..  !!! As said the color is just a color.. my point about the color is that they mutated long ago and people kept and bred for those mutations, singling out traits in the sub strain that much more. Im talkin family strain and importance of how a dog is built in its foundation and what it represents when its bred.


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## APASA (Dec 27, 2010)

How do you get one in 1500? If only parent has dilution (the blue nose) then when paired with a red nose with no diluted background (I am assuming this because it wasn't specified) then all pups will black noses if the blue nose parent does not carry for a red nose.

You have to look at Blue/Champaigne seperate from Red/black noses. 

It doesn't really matter which one you look at first. 

If we look at wether the pups should have a red nose or not then forget about the blue for now. The blue nosed parent will now be seen as black nosed and the red nosed parents is still red nosed. 

A red nose is recessive. (bb) So a dog with (Bb) will have a black nose, but can pass on the allele for a red nose or a black nose. For that red nose to show up it must be paired with another red nosed allele just like itself. 

So a black nosed dog (BB) bred to a red nosed dog (bb) will always have only Black nosed pups. Because Black nose is the dominant trait and the black nosed parent has nothing else to pass on except a (B) and the red nose has nothing to pass on but a (b) so all the pups will have (Bb) or (bB) which is the same. 

Now suppose you kept a pup from this litter (Bb) and bred it back to the sire (bb) Each puppy has a fifty percent chance of getting either the (B) or the (b) from its mom, and but has a hundred percent chance of getting a (b) from its sire. Since the (B) black nosed trait is dominate every puppy that receives it will have a black nose. So essentially each puppy has a fifty percent chance of getting the (B) from mom. Which will make again (Bb) however, if a gets the (b) from mom, it has no choice but to get one from dad and that pup will be (bb) or red nosed.

Now.. To add in the blue. It works the same way as the red nosed trait above. Any dog that is physically blue nose will have (dd). You can be sure of this because like the red nosed trait it is recessive. However any dog with (Dd) will be black but can pass on the allele for blue to its offspring who will be blue only if it gets another blue allele from its other parent. So you know the blue parent is (dd).

However you do not know if the red parent is (DD) or (Dd) because on the outside they look the same. If the red parent was (dd) it would not be red, but Champaigne. 

In the same way you do not know if the Blue Parent is (BB) or (Bb) if it were (bb) it would be Champaigne. 

(bb) the trait for a red nose simply turns the black in to red. (dd) the trait for dilution nose simply dilutes either black to blue or red to champaigne. 

Blue Nosed Parent : (dd) (BB) 
Red Nosed Parent : (DD) (bb)
Each pup has %100 chance of being Black with black nose. 

Blue Nosed Parent : (dd) (Bb)
Red Nosed Parent : (Dd) (bb)
Each pup has %50 chance of being Blue vs Black Nose and a %50 chance of being red Nosed Vs Black Nosed. This would end up as %25 chance for a black nose and %25 for a red nose and %25 for a blue nose and %25 for champaigne nose. 

Blue Nose Parent : (dd) (BB)
Red Nose Parent : (Dd) (bb) 
Each Pup would have a %50 chance for black nose vs Blue nose and %0 chance for a red nose. 

Blue Nose Parent : (dd) (Bb)
Red Nose Parent : (DD) (bb) 
Each pup would have a 0% chance of being blue and %50 chance of being Red vs black nosed.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I know the litter and where the dogs come from and I know that they were both from a long line of dillution... one being blue, black, and red mutations of all sorts in a 4-5gen, the other being mainly red with a smidge black. 
So when your talking a dilution source of 5 generations your talking that many ancestral traits that are at hand in the mtDNA and the DNA of the dogs. Because in a 7 gen pedigree on single dog is drawing dna/mtdna from 20,000+ sources  so the 1500 is lowball park figure give some more credit to the 3-4 gen... what your talkin on the punit can only be if you KNOW for sure the EXACT dillution of the prospect; what your have is a guess and your aiming as if you have it exact... NOPE you'd do better closing your eyes and aiming with your heart... meaning before you go crackin into the punit and ales,locus and recording traits both phenome and genome as fact, ya might want to look at EVERY dog in the pedigree so you KNOW exactly where was what and then bust out the square and the arithmatic. You'll have it exact.. Thats in crayon man, its the best I can explain without giving away what it is you do to counter mutations and what you do to pull dormant genes back out. 
Im not really confused by the notation of a rednose to a bluenose and out comes a black nose; as much as I am constantly redoing the math(that kind of confusion) to figure out the exact (math of it) As I did by finding the ales, locus, ... traits phenome and genome to the original bulldog.. Its not in the EB or EB APBT cross (took how long 3 decades for OEB to find consitant form and function) I did in 1 or 10yrs all from ADBA stock.  Then I repeated it in an experiment to prove my theory wrong.. I WAS right  I got two bulldogs under 30lbs. So this is why Im saying its important to LOOK at the WHOLE 7 and even back to the 10. I GO all the way back. You put it up on paint or old school print and on the wall and you mark each parent as the best to your knowledge of what it was, THEN and only THEN do you have any idea of what you have and what you REALLY pass on when breeding your dogs. A wild mustang will ruin a whole herd, thats genetics... not only mentally but genetically if bred; cause in a life time you'll never guess what your passing on, it will take two lifetimes at least. You'll always have variables you were not prepared for.. By pedigree research and analysis, your able to bottleneck your variables so to speak so you know what and where to expect your genetic mutations, anomalies, and the passing on of or pushing dormant certain genetic codes or sequences. 



im in a hurry have kids to feed, and Im late for afternoon workout, I apologize for misspellings and bad punctuation.


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## *Bella*Blu* (May 26, 2013)

Wow @ firehazard, that's some serious knowledge...uh when I get Bella's papers, I'm gonna need you to analyze and educate me ,)

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## APASA (Dec 27, 2010)

I see what your saying Fire Hazard. However, I admitted not knowing the grandparents and so could not be completely "politically correct" lol in my figuring. I misunderstood your initial statement I guess. when you said you didn't understand how a black nose could come from blue and red, I explained several "hypothetical" situations simply because.. I don't have all the info.. Or any any info at all other than one parent had blue nose and one had red. I explained, as you said, with an example as if the genetics were known. I understand in reality it isn't always like that. Sorry, I'm still in fine ink I guess.. haven't quite figured out crayon. And to think.. I was trying to make that basic. I was using complete dominance with only set of genes just to show how it _could_ work. I realize now, you understood that much. It is that particular combination of genes that was the subject of your question. Correct?


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

yeh, I caught that, which is why I reiterated, and yes its the combination of many sets of genes  .. within one dog, the %'s of this that down to the wash; the math gets me going bonkers sometimes.. I can't let it go until I got it done. 

But what you've done is good work for those who don't know and a good reminder among those who know how to work the punit as common practice because MOST all only look at the first 4-5 generations and forget all about what they represent truly in full genetic expression. So its good to see how extensive a simple breeding is .. its so simple yet so complex. Hahaha


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

ScruffDaddy said:


> Ok - so I've love reading stuff here, and I am not one of those people that you are like trying to beat a dead horse. I know that "peds don't matter", and its not for any real PURPOSE(if not showing/competing), I just like to know a little because I am a big research geek and like I know my own family tree...so I enjoy knowing more about this history of my dog.
> 
> Secondly, you guys have seriously made a huge difference in my world with my girl... she has definitely been a different experience between her and my american bully that is 3 yrs. Here is her ped (this is actually her mother Scarlett Nova, I havent put Bella on there yet and it was a fatherXdaughter breeding back to her dad so Bella's Sire is also Lemon & Yogi Boots) I asked this question (sorta once) but never got very good insite. thanks in advance.
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [380433] :: WOODS' SCARLETT NOVA


 Pretty fair pedigree , I'm quite familar with quite a few specific dogs in said pedigree and the men involved , The Flatliner dog was a pretty fair dog at a time when the OFRNs were falling out of fashion , Bomb Squad very seldom brought a bad one , Buck now he was a *real* good Cottingham dog and would have produced had you backed up to a stump , and he produced more ability than he himself possessed , cream of the crop Red Boy stuff with lots of bottom to it. Yogi Boots , he was quite a blessed dog , the old West Coast style stuff that goes directly back to Tudor and the good Williams dogs.

You've got a battle cross type dog that would go well bred back into the Red Boy stuff should the dog be worth breeding later , or for that matter you could go back to a tight OFRN breeding a number of ways , some of the OFBA stuff is still around and a few other worthwhile OFRN dogs including some crossed over the Red Boy stuff.

Or you could go back to the Hank blood and thus bring the Boomerang stuff back in again , though the Hank blood is fairly rare nowadays.

If you wanted to go a threeway cross a pure Eli dog would be a good bet.


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## surfer (Feb 20, 2013)

yea, i kind of take a hankerin to that redboy stuff myself,

funny you said something bout buck cant remember who came first buck or boomer, but both were the foundation studs for them.

boomer was marketed as a 3xw

but its little known there is a loss on his record,

to bullhead, a dbl bred rufus dog


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Ahh.. Rufus dogs...


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## OldDog (Mar 4, 2010)

surfer said:


> yea, i kind of take a hankerin to that redboy stuff myself,
> 
> funny you said something bout buck cant remember who came first buck or boomer, but both were the foundation studs for them.
> 
> ...


 Boomer was first , sire of Red Man ( rom) who sired Buck , these dogs were the synthesis of getting to the Jeff dog through both Red Boy and the North Carolina Rose bitch. The Bullet to Sheba breeding played a distinct role in this. These dogs brought together both Red Boy and the old Medlins " Outlaw" dog , only somewhat argueably the very best of the Jeff blood.

More on the Rufus dogs at some point , outa time for the moment.


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