# History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS



## Sadie

In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note's that in the late 1930's one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936. The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Stafforshire Terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren't penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can't stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?

*Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in today's blue dogs.These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch. *
*The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan. *

In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s."

Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.

If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well. 
Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".


----------



## Sadie

Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed. 

In Richard Pascoe’s book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability. 

The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few. 

The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas. 

Clifford Ormsby: "...I started with this great breed when you could buy a Pit Bull pup for $5.00. Many times this pup had flat feet, narrow chest, no brisket, bowed legs, fiddle front, cow-hocks, was undershot and had an unreliable temperament. You could shop around and find some desirable ones but it was a problem to find good dominant breeders of quality...."

Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods was a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline, that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890's. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift. Earl became well known dogman all over the country in 1920's with his 16 times winner Black Jack dog and 9 times winner Black Jack Jr. There were many breeders in that time who decide to use Tudor's stuff in their breedings. Corrington was one of these breeders of that time. Ok, back to Ormsby's Madge... Her dam was Bennett's Queen, a cross of Hogan's & Pitts' lines. Hogan line was built on Henry blood. Some of Charles Smith's breedings are behind Hogan's too. Pitts' line was mostly old Colby's bloods with some Henry.

Clifford Ormsby was born in Hornell, NY on August 24, 1905. Alberta also was born in Hornell 3 years later, on June 29, 1908. They were good friends in fact they grew up together a couple of streets apart. Young Cliff had about every animal there was to have. His first dogs were not purebred, and Cliff wanted to have a purebred dog that had spirit. Shortly after they were married Clifford & Alberta decided to take a pure pitbull. In 1930 Cliff went to Leonard,Texas, he took the dog, that he wanted. This was a female from W.F.Bennett's breeding, out of the famous pitbull dog Bennett Mack & Bennett Queen. The name of this female pup is well known to many Am Staff breeders, ORMSBY'S MADGE. It was the start, a Great start! 

In 1938 Clifford built a kennel. It was the very modern kennel for that time. There was a water heating system in the kennel floor. He put hot water system himself. When Clifford spoke about his kennel, he said: "Dr. Byer ( Ormsby's veterinarian) come down and asked, "Who built this kennel, who made this kennel for you?" I said, "I did!" He said that," this is a good layout for a small kennel." The heating in the floor, that's the most economical heating too. You see, you've got to put it in right. This is six to eight inches on center, I think three quarter inch wide. I know there's about seventy elbows in it. It has two units, there was no sense in that becouse I never divided it. I always used the whole thing. I have a pressure pump. I can put it on automatically...... "

In the beginning of Cliff & bert's Staffordshire Terrier breeding, Cliff wasn't interested in "showing" of their dogs. Alberta changed his mind though. She said, " If we're going to have dogs, I'm going to show". The first dogs they shipped to Willfred Brandon. Alberta was very interested in handling their dogs herself. And the first super champion of the X-Pert family, shown by Alberta in many dog shows was the legendary Ch. X-Pert Brindle Biff. He was the favorite dog of Clifford, Alberta & their daughter, Dorothy. When Peggy Doster asked Alberta, "What is the name of the best dog or bitch you ever bred?" Alberta said: "Biff. He was my first dog. I suppose I'm partial. You know, first show dog. I took him to shows all over the country. I showed him all over. I took him all over the place & he won all over the country. I'd go in the ring and people would say:"There goes that woman, again, with that dog"". 

Alberta was licensed to judge Stafs & Boxers. She began to judging in '40'. In 1995 Peggy Doster asked Alberta: "Why did you decide to begin judging?". Alberta said this: " It got me out to California and it got me away from cleaning up kennels at home. It wasn't long ago that they wanted to know if I would come out there and judge the dogs. They had read on their catalog that I had been out there in 1979. Wouldn't I look cute....trying to judge dogs. .....Boxers and Stafs and any breed I can quality for, but I don't want to. You know, too much for me, I don't want to get out there and get sick or something, you know."

Alberta: " I was out in Califonia, judging, and I had Am Staff in the ring that was all chewed up in his head. I said, "This dog was in fight. That was in 49', I think. And he said: "Yes, he had a fight yesterday, they fought him." And I said "He did? He's all chewed up." I said, "Will he shakes hands with me?" He said, "Yeah, but he shakes with his hind leg." He stuck his hind leg up to me and shook hands."


----------



## lusopitbull

*blue is not a color*, is genetic fault, picture it as de-washed black, why should it be more expensive than dogs without genetic default?

and if im not mistaken in ingland long ago blue meant red, i mean a blue hair was in fact red not blue,

ukc pits have so much amstaff blood....ukc "pits" and akc amstaffs are the same (exept no rednose in amstaff)

amstaff only reason of being is dog beauty show, most dont work....as an owner of amstaff, they became useles to me

crusader and california...
california is the proof that outcross dont work
crusader lives no more because they were like pitdogs and people wanted more bone and mass...

tacoma is the only line that interests me

it seems that miss Har-Wyn had affaire with knowned dogman (the silver fox) and maybe some Har-Wyn "amstaffs" are in reality gamedogs

i dont know why i waste my time in this subject....blue dogs lol


----------



## Sadie

lusopitbull said:


> *blue is not a color*, is genetic fault, picture it as de-washed black, why should it be more expensive than dogs without genetic default?
> 
> and if im not mistaken in ingland long ago blue meant red, i mean a blue hair was in fact red not blue,
> 
> ukc pits have so much amstaff blood....ukc "pits" and akc amstaffs are the same (exept no rednose in amstaff)
> 
> amstaff only reason of being is dog beauty show, most dont work....as an owner of amstaff, they became useles to me
> 
> crusader and california...
> california is the proof that outcross dont work
> crusader lives no more because they were like pitdogs and people wanted more bone and mass...
> 
> tacoma is the only line that interests me
> 
> it seems that miss Har-Wyn had affaire with knowned dogman (the silver fox) and maybe some Har-Wyn "amstaffs" are in reality gamedogs
> 
> i dont know why i waste my time in this subject....blue dogs lol


I'm sorry you don't agree actually this was not meant to be a debateable topic it was more of an educated read about the color blue in the breed since there are many theroies and opinions about this topic. And yes it is a color and does exist. I have a blue adba female she's one of the best fiesty dogs I have ever owned . And if you look on the adba site blue is on their color chart as well . But in any event I don't think blue is rare nor should it make a dogs price tag double/tripple it's just a color nothing more. Blue does not make a dog any more or less inferior to any other color dog. While it's true many bully breeder's have bred for the color blue alone. Not every blue dog is the same and not all blue dogs are bully. Each dog should be judged according to the breed standard and their working ability. Not because they are blue or red or white ect. I'll feed a whole farm of working blue dogs so long as they are good driven working dogs color means absolutely nothing to me. I don't have an issue with blue dogs but I have an issue with breeder's who breed for the color blue or any color alone because than your not really breeding anything other than a colored dog.


----------



## dan'sgrizz

Sadieblues i would like to say thankyou for your informative history lesson. I love a good history read i just finished "the american pitbull terrier" By joseph l. colby. Lots of stories but nothin' much to really sink teeth into. In all of the reading ive done only recently do they refer to pitbulls as the color "blue" in the past it was referred to as just plane grey or "grizzle" some even called it a muted black. As far as a color effecting the temperment of a dog that is rediculous. I believe the OFRN nose line was pronounced unworthy of breeding because it had lost gameness. I also read though that it was because the breeder hated those damn red noses LOL. Many dogs colors were unimportant in the past beacuse after all when its rolling around in the dirt all day they are all kinda brown. In response to the history of apbt getting colors from the mastiffs perhaps it is the otherway around. IMO the shape and size of the apbt is ideal for a working dog so it has been bred as the ideal for hundreds of years mastiffs are a long lost son of the original apbt blood. Great post by the way loved the reading.


----------



## Sadie

Thank You Dan Grizz I am glad you found it useful I know I did ... On the topic of sheer ignorance It's also little known fact there were many old dogger's who hated red dogs as well they were not worthy enough to lick the boots of those old dogman let alone feed, while they were later able to proove themselves worthy.. It just goes to show you when you focus on something as simple as color to determine a dogs gameness or worthiness to the breed as a whole your not benifiting the breed in any way it's just as bad as those breeder's out there breeding for color alone . Color should not be the sole reason to breed nor should it be the sole reason to determine a good working dog.


----------



## MADBood

SadieBlues said:


> It just goes to show you when you focus on something as simple as color to determine a dogs gameness or worthiness to the breed as a whole your not benifiting the breed in anyway it's just as bad as those breeder's out there breeding for color alone


You go with your bad moderator self...lol


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> You go with your bad moderator self...lol


 .........


----------



## ericschevy

One must remember also that doggers faught and bred what was proven worthy. Take a look back at all the old pictures you can find and notice all the variations within them. They were all different sizes, colors, and builds.. Just like any knowledgeable mechanic would say, "You gotta use the right tool for the job"


----------



## trutildeath360

SadieBlues said:


> Thank You Dan Grizz I am glad you found it useful I know I did ... On the topic of sheer ignorance It's also little known fact there were many old dogger's who hated red dogs as well they were not worthy enough to lick the boots of those old dogman let alone feed, while they were later able to proove themselves worthy.. It just goes to show you when you focus on something as simple as color to determine a dogs gameness or worthiness to the breed as a whole your not benifiting the breed in any way it's just as bad as those breeder's out there breeding for color alone . Color should not be the sole reason to breed nor should it be the sole reason to determine a good working dog.


thanks for the info on the diversity of this awsome breed..............:goodpost::clap:


----------



## cane76

And even if dogmen used rednosed dogs though some despised the color and size of some in the strain because they were sucssesful,wouldnt it be logical to think that the same would go for blue coated dogs,if they would win they would be used,dogmen even fought airdales against full blooded apbts and akitas and mastiff crosses and where expected to believe that not only where blue coated dogs culled based souly on color that besides "colarado imp" none are even on record as being tested besides a dog from the 90's that fans of the blood line claim had its title unjusytly stripped souly based on color?


----------



## Sadie

Blue dogs are being matched and proving themselves today illegally but make no mistake about it they are being fought while many blue dogs may have been culled based on the ignorance of old dogger's they never went extinct ... Blue is still a legitimate color in this breed and there is no denying that. I understand your dislikes for blue dogs because of the whole bully breeder fad thing going on. But I also remember when red dogs were being bred like candy too I see red bullies overpriced too. The whole point of my post was to put something out there positive and educational about blue apbts/amstaff since it seems that people like to fabricate and base their opinions off their own prejudices.


----------



## lusopitbull

sorry if i offended anyone or if i was offtopic but maybe i mis-intepreted you post

about color reconessence by i dont care who...(exemple) rhodesian ridgebacks..well that is malformation and can cause spine problems, still people cull healthy dogs because they dont have ridgebacks...so i dont care much if blue is a recognized color or not, maybe "it became a color" or "acceptable" but to me its a genetic default and will always be.

i guess we all agree that theres no color in gameness and sorry if i sound lunatic or offtopic


----------



## Sadie

lusopitbull said:


> sorry if i offended anyone or if i was offtopic but maybe i mis-intepreted you post
> 
> about color reconessence by i dont care who...(exemple) rhodesian ridgebacks..well that is malformation and can cause spine problems, still people cull healthy dogs because they dont have ridgebacks...so i dont care much if blue is a recognized color or not, maybe "it became a color" or "acceptable" but to me its a genetic default and will always be.
> 
> i guess we all agree that theres no color in gameness and sorry if i sound lunatic or offtopic


Hey No offense taken everyone has their opinions, likes and dislikes :cheers:


----------



## roe1880

Love the read thanks Sadie... Here is something else that I found while I did research years ago..

*Blue Poll AKA "Blue Paul"*

No one seems to have full knowledge as to how the Blue Pauls were bred or from where they originally came. There was a story that John Paul Jones, the American sailor, brought them from abroad and landed some when he visited his native town of Kirkcudbright about 1770. The Gypsies around the Kin Tilloch district kept Blue Pauls, which they fought for their own amusement. They were game to the death and could suffer much punishment. They were expert and tricky in their fighting tactics, which made them great favorites with those who indulged in this sport. They maintained that the breed originally came from the Galloway coast, which lends support to the Paul Jones legend. The first dogs to arrive in the United States with the English immigrants in the mid-19th century were the Blue Paul Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier AKA American Pitbull Terrier.

With his excellent fighting skills, the Blue Paul was introduced as part of Staffordshire Bull Terrier breeding in the early 19th century and the blue colouring has appeared in Staffords ever since, in particular, the Blue Staffordshire Bull Terrier. It has also appeared in Pitbulls and a bluetick coloration also appears due to inbreeding.

As we all know the American Staffordshire Terrier is the same as the American Pitbull Terrier, they have different names 'cause they were seperated by the AKC. If you research either pure breed Am-Staff or APBT you will see that they all go back to old game dogs from England, Ireland & Scotland.


----------



## koonce272

Nice read.

So what about bully owners and the color blue. I think many of these modern Blue bullies have recieved their color from the Neo mastiff.

What are you opinions on that.

I could completely be wrong.


----------



## roe1880

Well Koonce that topic has been discussed in many forums and many times...lol From what i've read the creator of the Razors Edge line was quoted as saying that they were mixed APBT's. Now i've also read that they were mixed with all sorts including Am-Staff, Mastiffs, English Bulldogs, Cane Corso & the like. Now me personally I don't like the big bully type dogs & have recently started to see a few in my neighborhood. I have Blue APBT's and I have people stop me and the 1st thing they say is WOW what a nice dog, what is it Razors Edge, or Gotti???? My dogs are TNT line... But 'cause they are blue they assume. They are in no way big.... the heaviest dog I have is 60lbs chain weight... It's just ignorance on behalf of people that don't do research. So i'm glad to see that your doing yours... As for your question IMHO your not right, but your also not wrong.... We just don't know what was introduced into the APBT to get the bully... Hope this helps...


----------



## reddoggy

koonce272 said:


> Nice read.
> 
> So what about bully owners and the color blue. I think many of these modern Blue bullies have recieved their color from the Neo mastiff.
> 
> What are you opinions on that.
> 
> I could completely be wrong.


Blue was in pitbulls long before the bully came to be......
But I agree with you!


----------



## koonce272

roe1880 said:


> Well Koonce that topic has been discussed in many forums and many times...lol From what i've read the creator of the Razors Edge line was quoted as saying that they were mixed APBT's. Now i've also read that they were mixed with all sorts including Am-Staff, Mastiffs, English Bulldogs, Cane Corso & the like. Now me personally I don't like the big bully type dogs & have recently started to see a few in my neighborhood. I have Blue APBT's and I have people stop me and the 1st thing they say is WOW what a nice dog, what is it Razors Edge, or Gotti???? My dogs are TNT line... But 'cause they are blue they assume. They are in no way big.... the heaviest dog I have is 60lbs chain weight... It's just ignorance on behalf of people that don't do research. So i'm glad to see that your doing yours... As for your question IMHO your not right, but your also not wrong.... We just don't know what was introduced into the APBT to get the bully... Hope this helps...


could you post some pics of your dogs?


----------



## Sadie

Ok well why we are it I am going to post some pics for comparison My sadie as most of you know is blue now if she were red Know one would have anything to say about her but because she is blue some folks assume oh she has to have some bully or amstaff in her . These are current pictures of sadie she will be 9 months old in 2 days she weighs 33.3 lbs so her weight is on track for the standard of the apbt. Conformation wise she fits the apbt standard

My Blue APBT -


















Blue American Staffordshire Terrier-










Blue Staffordshire Bull Terrier -










Blue American Bully -









Blue Neo Mastiff -










Just A General Comparision See the difference here?


----------



## cane76

of course neo mastiff has been used countless times in bully breeding.


----------



## cane76

SadieBlues said:


> Ok well why we are it I am going to post some pics for comparison My sadie as most of you know is blue now if she were red Know one would have anything to say about her but because she is blue some folks assume oh she has to have some bully or amstaff in her . These are current pictures of sadie she will be 9 months old in 2 days she weighs 33.3 lbs so her weight is on track for the standard of the apbt. Conformation wise she fits the apbt standard
> 
> My Blue APBT -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blue American Staffordshire Terrier-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blue Staffordshire Bull Terrier -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blue American Bully -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blue Neo Mastiff -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just A General Comparision See the difference here?


post up her pedigree,ill find amsatff in there 100% guarenteed,if she has a pedigree.


----------



## roe1880

im not allowed to post pics or url's yet but i will try to put some pics on my page here so anyone can check them out.


----------



## roe1880

my pictures are posted on the albums page under the title of Ero's O.D. Pitbulls.... Please check my babies out... Thanks.


----------



## Sadie

Cane she has a pedigree when I have the time to upload it I promise you I'll let you disect her ped inch by inch. I know what she is and what her brother is. And for the record if you go far enough back in any apbt pedigree your going to find amstaff. But sadie and her brother are NOT amtaff they are american pitbull terriers. These 2 dogs look nothing like amstaffs



















And some more of sadie


----------



## MADBood

I have to agree that you will find Amstaff in there somewhere if there are blue dogs, no doubt. Hell, as far as Amstaff being further back in the peds, alot of APBTs have AST in there somewhere but it really depends on how much linebreeding was done, especially if there where quite a few ASTs in there before you could indeed call them an AST.

I think Cane just said that he could find Amstaff blood in there but he didn't call your dog one.  Easy there supermod...lol


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> I have to agree that you will find Amstaff in there somewhere if there are blue dogs, no doubt. Hell, as far as Amstaff being further back in the peds, alot of APBTs have AST in there somewhere but it really depends on how much linebreeding was done, especially if there where quite a few ASTs in there before you could indeed call them an AST.
> 
> I think Cane just said that he could find Amstaff blood in there but he didn't call your dog one.  Easy there supermod...lol


No I agree you will find ast in most apbt's pedigrees if you go far back enough in their pedigree's no matter what color they are.


----------



## MADBood

Thats right most do. The AST of the older days were game as hell too, and most gamelines (then and now) weren't/aren't dead game either. If doggers could throw a bunch of game dogs, they wouldn't be so highly prized. There was always paper hanging going on, even then. Some dogmen didn't want to reveal there secret to success, with that being said...none of us know for sure where the hell our dogs came from...lol, but seriously.


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> Thats right most do. The AST of the older days were game as hell too, and most gamelines (then and now) weren't/aren't dead game either. If doggers could throw a bunch of game dogs, they wouldn't be so highly prized. There was always paper hanging going on, even then. Some dogmen didn't want to reveal there secret to success, with that being said...none of us know for sure where the hell our dogs came from...lol, but seriously.


LOL yeah that's true! I have seen some old game dogs I couldn't tell what they were bred with LMFAO they were very unique looking :roll: And yeah I misread cane76's comment my mistake... I am sure somewhere back you'll find some amstaff in my kids pedigree's I still will let you look them over though cane when I get them loaded up I'll send you a PM and you can go over it


----------



## roe1880

My dogs also have Am-Staff in them but if you look at the foundation male & females peds you will mostly find Reds & blacks.... very, very few blue dogs in their Am-staff DNA... If anyone wants to see their ped, the id #'s are 292273 & 245153. & then some anything with Ero's is mine... Please let me know what ya'll think.


----------



## cane76

go back in many game dogs pedigrees and you will find no staff blood,maybe game dogs used as foundation stock for the am staff,but not am staffs,foundation and the actual thing are two different things,i don't need to see the pedigree,its a blue dog,its 50% am staff at least,there's no argument it just is what it is.Plus there's nothing wrong with a am staff anyways obviously some breeders of am staff have taken more time and care in the breeding compared to ukc apbt pit/staff crosses.


----------



## OldFortKennels

> its 50% am staff at least,there's no argument it just is what it is


where is the proof? Havent we beat this to death. You are going to find Amstaff or Staff blood in just about any line if you go back far enough as the Staff was predecessor to the APBT.


----------



## Sadie

OldFortKennels said:


> where is the proof?


:cheers:


----------



## dan'sgrizz

Yah i wanna kick this horse again! So if amstaffs came from pitbulls i believe it was a colby dog that was the foundation dog? Than there colors could not have come from anywhere but....pitbulls! i love circular reasoning. I think we should start a thread about the chicken and the egg next. I say the chicken came first and pit bulls are grey or blue or muted black or grizzled whatever you wanna call it.


----------



## Sadie

cane76 said:


> go back in many game dogs pedigrees and you will find no staff blood,maybe game dogs used as foundation stock for the am staff,but not am staffs,foundation and the actual thing are two different things,i don't need to see the pedigree,its a blue dog,its 50% am staff at least,there's no argument it just is what it is.Plus there's nothing wrong with a am staff anyways obviously some breeders of am staff have taken more time and care in the breeding compared to ukc apbt pit/staff crosses.


Cane You can call sadie whatever you want to . But I'm gonna call her what she is an adba registered game bred blue american pit bull terrier. We don't have to argue she is my dog I know what she is and I know what her brother is and what her parent's are


----------



## roe1880

Now that's what I'm talking about OldFortKennels... You took the words right out of my mouth..... 
"You are going to find Amstaff or Staff blood in just about any line if you go back far enough as the Staff was predecessor to the APBT."

It was the AKC who changed their name so they would not be frowned upon for having fighting dogs in their shows... It sounds very snobbish to me...lol... But that's what it is, and it can't get any simpler than that IMHO....


----------



## cane76

I'm talking about 1936 registered American staffordshire terriers and everyone knows that,akc registered dogs.
They can call it what ever they want before that.
*And where's the proof*,just look into your own line ofk,blue trouble was at least 75% American staffordshire"akc" registered,bred from a pure "ruffian" bitch.
Show me some game dogs"real" game dogs that trace there linage to anything but foundation stock for the akc American staffordshire terrier.
One more thing and correct me if I'm wrong,but first do your research ,in 1898 the ukc officially dubbed the breed the apbt,I'll start from there,up until that point the breed was in a foundational state mostly in a different country and went by many names,staffordshire,blue paul,red smut whatever,foundation stock for the apbt in America,of course there were dogs in the USA before this time 1898 now what these dogs went by probably was staffordshire,Yankee terrier,half and half,also the majority of these dogs were f1/f2 battle crosses with no paper work and no set type,i.e,not a breed but rather a working battle cross in construction.


----------



## cane76

SadieBlues said:


> But I'm gonna call her what she is an adba registered game bred blue american pit bull terrier.


shes game now also?What exactly is this dogs blood line?


----------



## OldFortKennels

I know there is AKC/UKC blood in my dogs, Im not denying that and honestly without rereading this whole thread Ive lost what we were discussing. Funny thing, the UKC was created to keep record of dog matches, game dogs?


----------



## Dog Days Kennel

SadieBlues said:


> In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note's that in the late 1930's one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936. The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Stafforshire Terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren't penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can't stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?
> 
> *Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in today's blue dogs.These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch. *
> *The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan. *
> 
> In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s."
> 
> Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.
> 
> If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well.
> Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".


EXCELLENT POST!!

And very well researched.


----------



## MADBood

SadieBlues said:


> But I'm gonna call her what she is an adba registered game bred blue american pit bull terrier


The only way this could be true is if both parents of your dog were both proven game dogs...hence your dog being gamebred. My gal Easy isn't even gamebred but she did come from gamelines....big difference there.


----------



## big hook

sadie,
i'm just wondering. in all your pictures you have your dogs tided up with thier leash. why? in my life i have never had to keep mine tied up in the house, and 2 of the three i could take outside with out a leash. as long as no other dogs made aggressive moves or growled at them they were fine. if one growled or made a aggressive move i would have to do something cause it was on. mom and dads dogs were very game bred. my grandfather used to breed them and **** hunt with them as well. he had one that was a champion **** on the log dog.

i just can't get over people not wanting to admit that our dogs come from staff and am staff. they all did in the beginning. we wouldn't have the dog's we do now if they didn't. the color blue is just that a color. from all my reading and years of being around them it's always been a default color. not saying they shouldn't be bred, but it was a genetic default in the pigment genes. i have no feelings about it either way, but i hate to see people who breed just for color. i feel that they should only be bred one time to prolong the bloodline. over breeding is a problem, not a help. that is the way i was taught by my grandfather and my parents. they would take thier best dogs no matter the color and breed them to get the best of the 2 put into a puppy. they would keep all the papers and make sure they were a good cross first and then bred them. mom and dad only bred bonnie and clyde one time and they were 4 years old before they even talked about it. that to me is responcable breeding. not when they first come into heat. allow the dogs to reach adulthood, allow them to show they have what the blood line needs to be what they are, then research and pair them up right.

i myself have always loved the brindle apbt's. i've had 2 my first was the pup out of mom and dads dogs. i never bred her. the second was the grandson out of mom and dads dogs. he was white and tan. now my dog ethyl is white and brindle. her stripe on her back come to a v on the top of her back. if i can get her in the light i will take a picture of her back to show you. the color of a dog should mean nothing. thier attitude and willingness to please along with thier gameness should be the traits we all look for. not thier color.


----------



## cane76

big hook said:


> i just can't get over people not wanting to admit that our dogs come from staff and am staff. they all did in the beginning. we wouldn't have the dog's we do now if they didn't.


What?
The amstaff was registered in 1936,the ukc was formed and the label apbt was created in 1898,so i don't see how that is possible,dogs from the old country were dogs bred for ability,not aesthetic meaning they were just a type not a breed,there definitely were certain strains with in the type but in general they were battle crosses bred for combat not purity.
Its always been my idea that the blue trait was created from tight line and in breeding,but now i believe that it was inherited through ancient war mastiffs
via bulldog blood that were bred very tightly.
Hope that makes some sort of sense.


----------



## Sadie

big hook said:


> sadie,
> i'm just wondering. in all your pictures you have your dogs tided up with thier leash. why? in my life i have never had to keep mine tied up in the house, and 2 of the three i could take outside with out a leash. as long as no other dogs made aggressive moves or growled at them they were fine. if one growled or made a aggressive move i would have to do something cause it was on. mom and dads dogs were very game bred. my grandfather used to breed them and **** hunt with them as well. he had one that was a champion **** on the log dog.
> 
> i just can't get over people not wanting to admit that our dogs come from staff and am staff. they all did in the beginning. we wouldn't have the dog's we do now if they didn't. the color blue is just that a color. from all my reading and years of being around them it's always been a default color. not saying they shouldn't be bred, but it was a genetic default in the pigment genes. i have no feelings about it either way, but i hate to see people who breed just for color. i feel that they should only be bred one time to prolong the bloodline. over breeding is a problem, not a help. that is the way i was taught by my grandfather and my parents. they would take thier best dogs no matter the color and breed them to get the best of the 2 put into a puppy. they would keep all the papers and make sure they were a good cross first and then bred them. mom and dad only bred bonnie and clyde one time and they were 4 years old before they even talked about it. that to me is responcable breeding. not when they first come into heat. allow the dogs to reach adulthood, allow them to show they have what the blood line needs to be what they are, then research and pair them up right.
> 
> i myself have always loved the brindle apbt's. i've had 2 my first was the pup out of mom and dads dogs. i never bred her. the second was the grandson out of mom and dads dogs. he was white and tan. now my dog ethyl is white and brindle. her stripe on her back come to a v on the top of her back. if i can get her in the light i will take a picture of her back to show you. the color of a dog should mean nothing. thier attitude and willingness to please along with thier gameness should be the traits we all look for. not thier color.


 My dogs are indoor dogs! They were tied up to take pics of them because there is leash laws I don't let my dogs rome free when not on my property! But if I were going to tie them up outside it wouldn't be with a leash. And in some pics I was holding the leash why taking pics of them. So my friend you are mistaken my dogs are not tied up out side they were tied up temporarily so I could take pics of them. Oh and when they are tied up on leashes indoor's it's so I can get them to stay still while I take pics my pups have huge amounts of energy and don't like to stay still for a moment. That's why Hope this answer's your questions.


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> The only way this could be true is if both parents of your dog were both proven game dogs...hence your dog being gamebred. My gal Easy isn't even gamebred but she did come from gamelines....big difference there.


game dog is one thing game bred is another I didn't call her a game dog I said she was game bred meaning she is bred off game lines! There are some that will argue that in order for your pups to be consider game bred they would need to come directly of proven parent's . IMO your dog is game bred if you have game dogs within the first 1-3 generations somewhere close.


----------



## koonce272

fair enough


----------



## MADBood

SadieBlues said:


> game dog is one thing game bred is another I didn't call her a game dog I said she was game bred meaning she is bred off game lines! There are some that will argue that in order for your pups to be consider game bred they would need to come directly of proven parent's . IMO your dog is game bred if you have game dogs within the first 1-3 generations somewhere close.


The term gamebred can't mean anything but bred from gamedogs, it's not my opinion, it's a known fact. All gamedogs were gamebred at one point until they proved themselves. The term gamebred gets thrown around alot but that doesn't make it true. Your dog may have came from gamelines but that doesn't constitute calling them gamebred. Even gamebred dogs can be curs just like a random rescue dog can be dead game, so being gamebred doesn't necessarily make a dog anything special.


----------



## MADBood

koonce272 said:


> WOW ppl you have taken this way off topic. Its about history NOT whether or not you feel someone elses dog on this forum is gamebred.
> 
> Oh and BIG hook, what does sadies leashes have to do this the topic of this thread.
> 
> keep things on topic or DONT POST, and by no means bring peoples dogs of this forum into debate.


Well if you had been following this thread you would have seen where the OP brought thier own dogs into this thread. If you don't like where this thread is going, maybe you should not post, IMO.


----------



## ericschevy

koonce272 said:


> WOW ppl you have taken this way off topic. Its about history NOT whether or not you feel someone elses dog on this forum is gamebred.
> 
> Oh and BIG hook, what does sadies leashes have to do this the topic of this thread.
> 
> keep things on topic or DONT POST, and by no means bring peoples dogs of this forum into debate.


Just some friendly advice, you may want to review the rules, Particularly number 2

Read forum rules below...

You must accept these rules before you are able to post.​*

NO SELLING DOGS! NO ADVERTISING YOUR KENNEL! There will be no selling of dogs here, no putting your kennel link in your signature, and no putting your kennel website on your pictures. This is a ZERO TOLERANCE RULE!
NO BACKSEAT MODERATING! We have a report button for a reason. Use it, and don't say anything to the person who is disobeying the rules.
Keep the foul language to a minimum. We're not going to ban you for 1 small thing, but don't take it over the top.
Do not misuse the reputation system. Reputation is for agreeing/disagreeing with a post or thread, NOT for acting out your animosity towards another member. Warnings will be given for this.
No verbal abuse or attacks on members will be tolerated.
No verbal abuse or attacks on members dogs will be tolerated
This is a fun family oriented site. If you dont like certain aspects of this board find another one.
We will not discriminate between GAME and BULLY dogs. Again there are other sites for that. Keep your personal preferance to yourself and DO NOT push it on others.
Moderators word goes, don't argue with them. If you truly have a problem with a moderator, PM one of the administrators and it will be handled accordingly.
New members are always welcome, and acting like you are better or more important than someone just because they are new WILL get you in trouble. We're not like most forums where new members have to earn acceptance.
Don't be afraid to ask questions. People here are always glad to help out.
All posts must be written in English.
*​For breaking above rules you may be warned/banned appropriately!​


----------



## DieselDawg

First of all "blue" is not a genetic defect. It is caused by the recessive "wild gene" usually denoted as "d". Being recessive and a genetic fault are two different things alltogether. This recessive trait is also why "blue" APBTs in the past were hard to find. The "d" allele has to be carried by each parent at one loci of thier DNA strand. If only one parent (sire or dam) carries the "d" gene, you will not throw any "blues" or "livers" for that matter. It would take both the sire and dam with a "d" as in genetic makeup D-d to get possible blue or liver coated pups. Since it takes a "d-d" pairing to dillute the coat color, it is less probable. Now if you start taking a Blue "d-d" and mate to a Black "D-d", your chances of throwing blue pups increases. Any combination of "d-d" will be blue where as all combinations of "D-d" will show black. 

The probabiltity of black to blue using a Punets Sqare using a D-d and d-d would be 50% for each color.

If you use a Homozygous "D-D" and a Homozygous "d-d", you would only throw black. In fact the "D-D" dog would always throw black pups so there would be no "blue surprises".

If you use a Heterozygous "D-d" with another "D-d", you would have a 25% chance to throw a blue pup. This is where the surprises happened. You had two phenotype (outward appearing) Black dogs that becasue of thier genotype (true genetic makeup) when mated could throw a blue or two in a litter.


----------



## big hook

SadieBlues said:


> My dogs are indoor dogs! They were tied up to take pics of them because there is leash laws I don't let my dogs rome free when not on my property! But if I were going to tie them up outside it wouldn't be with a leash. And in some pics I was holding the leash why taking pics of them. So my friend you are mistaken my dogs are not tied up out side they were tied up temporarily so I could take pics of them. Oh and when they are tied up on leashes indoor's it's so I can get them to stay still while I take pics my pups have huge amounts of energy and don't like to stay still for a moment. That's why Hope this answer's your questions.


 i ws just wondering. my dog is full of energy as well. i normally wait till she is run down before i take pictures of her. i ment nothing by it i was just wondering.

this is a forum. i have seem many take a life of thier own and get way off from the origanal topic. that is part of life. loosen up people.


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> The term gamebred can't mean anything but bred from gamedogs, it's not my opinion, it's a known fact. All gamedogs were gamebred at one point until they proved themselves. The term gamebred gets thrown around alot but that doesn't make it true. Your dog may have came from gamelines but that doesn't constitute calling them gamebred. Even gamebred dogs can be curs just like a random rescue dog can be dead game, so being gamebred doesn't necessarily make a dog anything special.


Madbood Gamebred is a dog bred off of game lines game dog is a dog who has proven itself game in the box. I know what these terms mean. I know that gamebred dogs can be curs I know all of this I never said being gamebred makes a dog anymore special your putting all this into my mouth. All I simply said is my dogs are gamebred it's just what it means they were bred off game lines. There is nothing to this I am not going to make this a big deal. You don't have to agree with me calling my dogs game bred but if they stem from game lines thats what they are. I am not going back and fourth with you on this.


----------



## Sadie

big hook said:


> i ws just wondering. my dog is full of energy as well. i normally wait till she is run down before i take pictures of her. i ment nothing by it i was just wondering.
> 
> this is a forum. i have seem many take a life of thier own and get way off from the origanal topic. that is part of life. loosen up people.


Ok well mine are rowdy around the clock lol that's how I do things over here hope I answered your questions.


----------



## cane76

DieselDawg said:


> First of all "blue" is not a genetic defect. It is caused by the recessive "wild gene" usually denoted as "d". Being recessive and a genetic fault are two different things alltogether. This recessive trait is also why "blue" APBTs in the past were hard to find. The "d" allele has to be carried by each parent at one loci of thier DNA strand. If only one parent (sire or dam) carries the "d" gene, you will not throw any "blues" or "livers" for that matter. It would take both the sire and dam with a "d" as in genetic makeup D-d to get possible blue or liver coated pups. Since it takes a "d-d" pairing to dillute the coat color, it is less probable. Now if you start taking a Blue "d-d" and mate to a Black "D-d", your chances of throwing blue pups increases. Any combination of "d-d" will be blue where as all combinations of "D-d" will show black.
> 
> The probabiltity of black to blue using a Punets Sqare using a D-d and d-d would be 50% for each color.
> 
> If you use a Homozygous "D-D" and a Homozygous "d-d", you would only throw black. In fact the "D-D" dog would always throw black pups so there would be no "blue surprises".
> 
> If you use a Heterozygous "D-d" with another "D-d", you would have a 25% chance to throw a blue pup. This is where the surprises happened. You had two phenotype (outward appearing) Black dogs that becasue of thier genotype (true genetic makeup) when mated could throw a blue or two in a litter.


all that science is fine and dandy but i guarantee most people will not understand that,i don't,its like some sort of math equation,its like reading a foreign language.
It may explain what genes cause the color[i guess?]but it doesn't explain why the genes exist in the first place,such as through inbreeding or just a natural trait such as albinism that just freakishly shows up,either way it isn't specific to amstaffs and apbts,all types of dogs are blue or grey,and it had to be a inherited trait of some sort.


----------



## MADBood

SadieBlues said:


> Madbood Gamebred is a dog bred off of game lines game dog is a dog who has proven itself game in the box. I know what these terms mean. I know that gamebred dogs can be curs I know all of this I never said being gamebred makes a dog anymore special your putting all this into my mouth. All I simply said is my dogs are gamebred it's just what it means they were bred off game lines. There is nothing to this I am not going to make this a big deal. You don't have to agree with me calling my dogs game bred but if they stem from game lines thats what they are. I am not going back and fourth with you on this.


I'm not trying to argue this to death either. I was just stating facts, not my opinion but if you feel better about your dogs by calling them gamebred, who am I to stop you...go right ahead and join those bully breeders by calling your dog something it's not.


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> I'm not trying to argue this to death either. I was just stating facts, not my opinion but if you feel better about your dogs by calling them gamebred, who am I to stop you...go right ahead and join those bully breeders by calling your dog something it's not.


Those are not facts madbood we have talked about this before people like ofk and marty have both said the same same thing I have said regarding the definition of these 2 terms so I'll go ahead and join the bully breeder's club while you stay misinformed. :hammer:


----------



## cane76

Just post up the pedigree,that will show if your dog is historically and ancestrally a pure bred game dog or just has some game dogs up in the wood pile,there's a difference.does the dog have a online pedigree?


----------



## Sadie

cane76 said:


> Just post up the pedigree,that will show if your dog is historically and ancestrally a pure bred game dog or just has some game dogs up in the wood pile,there's a difference.does the dog have a online pedigree?


No I have her pedigree I just signed up for online pedigree I am going to generate her ped and add it up here soon


----------



## koonce272

cane76 said:


> all that science is fine and dandy but i guarantee most people will not understand that,i don't,its like some sort of math equation,its like reading a foreign language.
> It may explain what genes cause the color[i guess?]*but it doesn't explain why the genes exist in the first place*,such as through inbreeding or just a natural trait such as albinism that just freakishly shows up,either way it isn't specific to amstaffs and apbts,all types of dogs are blue or grey,and it had to be a inherited trait of some sort.


The color comes from the genes of dogs it took to breed what was known/ is know as a pitbull.

it goes back to mastiff lines. Such as the neo, or corso, i think even presa canarios come in blue(could be wrong on that one).

You just dont see the term BLUE itself as older dogmen never refered to the color as blue, but as GREY and often a few other names.

the color is in the genes.

This is also kinda why i feel blue is more of a bully color as those genetics are more from a mastiff than anything else.

few more cents for the table


----------



## Sadie

koonce272 said:


> The color comes from the genes of dogs it took to breed what was known/ is know as a pitbull.
> 
> it goes back to mastiff lines. Such as the neo, or corso, i think even presa canarios come in blue(could be wrong on that one).
> 
> You just dont see the term BLUE itself as older dogmen never refered to the color as blue, but as GREY and often a few other names.
> 
> the color is in the genes.
> 
> This is also kinda why i feel blue is more of a bully color as those genetics are more from a mastiff than anything else.
> 
> few more cents for the table


Blue and grey are the same colors it's just that blue is what they are calling grey now ... back when I heard old doggers used the term grey as well. But today a grey dog is considered to be a blue dog. Now how that happened I couldn't really tell ya LOL why they started calling grey dogs blue


----------



## MADBood

SadieBlues said:


> Those are not facts madbood we have talked about this before people like ofk and marty have both said the same same thing I have said regarding the definition of these 2 terms so I'll go ahead and join the bully breeder's club while you stay misinformed. :hammer:


Well no offense to either of them two but that is wrong. Ask any dogger what gamebred means and they will tell you the same thing I did. The term gamebred says it all...bred from game. Not gamelines....GAMEDOGS. Every member of this site can say otherwise but it's not gonna change my mind. Calling a bully an APBT is someone's opinion but it is known FACT that they are not....same thing here. It's not an opinion of mine, it is what it is.

I used to think the same thing...if it came from gamelines, they were gamebred but that is simply not true. Hell ASTs came from gamelines too once upon a time but I doubt you would get anyone to agree that they are gamebred unless of course they were put to the test, tried and proven.

You say that your dogs were off of Sorrells, even if they were pure Sorrells they haven't been gametested in years.They are great dogs, don't get me wrong but there are not bred the same as they were once...they are more show quality, IMO.


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> Well no offense to either of them two but that is wrong. Ask any dogger what gamebred means and they will tell you the same thing I did. The term gamebred says it all...bred from game. Not gamelines....GAMEDOGS. Every member of this site can say otherwise but it's not gonna change my mind. Calling a bully an APBT is someone's opinion but it is known FACT that they are not....same thing here. It's not an opinion of mine, it is what it is.
> 
> I used to think the same thing...if it came from gamelines, they were gamebred but that is simply not true. Hell ASTs came from gamelines too once upon a time but I doubt you would get anyone to agree that are gamebred unless of course they were put to the test, tried and proven.
> 
> You say that your dogs were off of Sorrells, even if they were pure Sorrells they haven't been gametested in years.They are great dogs, don't get me wrong but there are not bred the same as they were once...they are more show quality, IMO.


Well if this is all true than I stand corrected but I was told and have been told that game bred dogs are simply dogs that have been bred off game lines they should be close meaning within the first 4 generations of the pedigree you should see some fighting dogs. That's they way I have always understood it to be. Most of these game lines have been watered down and unless someone is breeding to preserve these bloodlines by keeping it real the way old dog man intended it to be with these dogs I would say most of todays game lines are show bred dogs not just sorrells. But it doesn't matter my only point in bringing my dogs into this post was to prove there are blue dogs out their who are true to the standard of the apbt. So all this crap about blue dogs are curs they can't be game they can't be blue and be purebred is bs all blue dogs are bullies ect . Sadie is a good example of a blue dog who is built to function as a working dog. She is not your typical 80-100lb dog. She is well built well proportioned this was why I brought her into this post to prove a point that they are out there may not be a whole lot of them out there but they do exist


----------



## cane76

koonce272 said:


> The color comes from the genes of dogs it took to breed what was known/ is know as a pitbull.
> 
> it goes back to mastiff lines. Such as the neo, or corso, i think even presa canarios come in blue(could be wrong on that one).
> 
> You just dont see the term BLUE itself as older dogmen never refered to the color as blue, but as GREY and often a few other names.
> 
> the color is in the genes.
> 
> This is also kinda why i feel blue is more of a bully color as those genetics are more from a mastiff than anything else.
> 
> few more cents for the table


yes im aware of that it comes to the apbt through relation to old fighting and war molosser dogs.Neos corso's and presas are all creations of the modern era,they inherited the gene through those ancient war dogs as well.


----------



## MADBood

SadieBlues said:


> But it doesn't matter my only point in bringing my dogs into this post was to prove there are blue dogs out their who are true to the standard of the apbt. So all this crap about blue dogs are curs they can't be game they can't be blue and be purebred is bs all blue dogs are bullies ect . Sadie is a good example of a blue dog who is built to function as a working dog. She is not your typical 80-100lb dog. She is well built well proportioned this was why I brought her into this post to prove a point that they are out there may not be a whole lot of them out there but they do exist


Your dogs are great examples of blue APBTs. I know Easy and Buck's pedigrees are loaded with proven gamedogs....more proven fighting stock than showdogs but they are only dogs descending from gamelines...not gamebred.

I wasn't personally attacking you on the comment about the gamebred dogs being nothing special....it seems as if you took it that way. Most of us know that a gamebred dog means nothing in the fighting world unless they prove themselves. There is no reason for me to have a gamedog so I could care less if any of my dogs are gamebred or not.


----------



## Marty

*MADBood, what would you call these dogs bullys?*

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [213146] :: GAME-DOG.COM'S SHEENA

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [213156] :: GAME-DOG.COM'S A.K.A.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [174932] :: GAME-DOG.COM'S BEAUREGARD

*Or bred down from game lines?*

*I call them game bred myself!*


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> Your dogs are great examples of blue APBTs. I know Easy and Buck's pedigrees are loaded with proven gamedogs....more proven fighting stock than showdogs but they are only dogs descending from gamelines...not gamebred.
> 
> I wasn't personally attacking you on the comment about the gamebred dogs being nothing special....it seems as if you took it that way. Most of us know that a gamebred dog means nothing in the fighting world unless they prove themselves. There is no reason for me to have a gamedog so I could care less if any of my dogs are gamebred or not.


Me either I could care less about how game my dog is they will never be fought nor bred so it does not matter I was only trying to point out that as unfortunate as it is that blue has become such a craze in america with bullies in particular you'll still find some blue apbt's that was my only point in this discussion. You get tired of people grouping all blue dogs in the same sh*t pile because they are not all the same that was my only argument since I have been a member of this forum I have heard some pretty harsh things about blue dogs it's always the blue dogs that get bashed for being born blue. There is more to a dog than just it's color and I wish more people would see it that way because it's very ignorant.


----------



## MADBood

Marty said:


> *MADBood, what would you call these dogs bullys?* *Or bred down from game lines?*
> 
> *I call them game bred myself!*


Well I guess it all depends on whether or not the parents were game tested and proven game....if not...they were bred down from gamelines. As far as me calling them "bulllies" I never made that comparison. I would say they would be working APBTs....not gamebred and certainly not "bullies"...where the hell did that come from???? :roll:


----------



## Sadie

Marty said:


> *MADBood, what would you call these dogs bullys?*
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [213146] :: GAME-DOG.COM'S SHEENA
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [213156] :: GAME-DOG.COM'S A.K.A.
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [174932] :: GAME-DOG.COM'S BEAUREGARD
> 
> *Or bred down from game lines?*
> 
> *I call them game bred myself!*


Those are gamebred dogs wooooooo weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


----------



## Marty

MADBood said:


> Well I guess it all depends on whether or not the parents were game tested and proven game....if not...they were bred down from gamelines. As far as me calling them "bulllies" I never made that comparison. I would say they would be working APBTs....not gamebred and certainly not "bullies"...where the hell did that come from???? :roll:


Where are you getting your info?

You just said...


> they were bred down from gamelines


 why would then they not be considered game bred?

And no the parents don't have to be tested, they are bred down from game lines so there considered game bred


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> Well I guess it all depends on whether or not the parents were game tested and proven game....if not...they were bred down from gamelines. As far as me calling them "bulllies" I never made that comparison. I would say they would be working APBTs....not gamebred and certainly not "bullies"...where the hell did that come from???? :roll:


I think when you made the comment that I should join the bully club because of my definition of gamebred does not mean game tested parents. So by right anyone else who shares that same opinion would also be joining the bully club by calling our dogs something they are not. That's what marty meant by that:thumbsup: Because he just agreed that you don't have to have game tested parents to consider your dog game bred if they are bred down from gamelines that's what they are gamebred.


----------



## MADBood

If never tested, noone would ever know if their dog was game. Even when tested and proven they can still throw non-game gamebred puppies and if those pups are never tested then the trait or state of mind of "gameness" could very well be bred out or scattered about generations back. You would be hard pressed passing off gamebred pups two generations without game testing.

***Edited out *** I know where you were going madbood I just don't want the wrong person reading that and assuming something else if ya know what I mean !


----------



## MADBood

SadieBlues said:


> I think when you made the comment that I should join the bully club because of my definition of gamebred does not mean game tested parents. QUOTE]
> 
> That was my bad. I got alil heated there for a sec and was making a point (though it was a bit harsh....sorry). I never meant to compare your dogs to bullies.


----------



## Marty

So let's see what your buddies have to say... show them the peds and ask them and see what they tell you, we'll just have to agree to disagree here 

Some people don't post there winnings online and no I don't test my dogs it's against the law you know


----------



## MADBood

I'm all out of argue juice....lol. Call them what you will. I stand firm on what I believe and I will leave it at that.


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> SadieBlues said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think when you made the comment that I should join the bully club because of my definition of gamebred does not mean game tested parents. QUOTE]
> 
> That was my bad. I got alil heated there for a sec and was making a point (though it was a bit harsh....sorry). I never meant to compare your dogs to bullies.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand no hard feelings it happens to the best of us
Click to expand...


----------



## Sadie

MADBood said:


> I'm all out of argue juice....lol. Call them what you will. I stand firm on what I believe and I will leave it at that.


LOL It's all good nothing like a good heated debate every now and then keeps things interesting !


----------



## OldFortKennels

There is a big difference between game BRED and Game. Dog off of game lines is GAMEBRED, bred from gamelines, has a higher propensity toward gameness. Game itself must be proved!


----------



## Sadie

OldFortKennels said:


> There is a big difference between game BRED and Game. Dog off of game lines is GAMEBRED, bred from gamelines, has a higher propensity toward gameness. Game itself must be proved!


This is what I thought too! I hoped I wasn't loosing my mind LOL:roll:


----------



## Monster777

who cares. there commonly linked to health problems and use to get culled out. which should be done today! not to mention these dogs now a day are bred for color which makes them a staff. not to metion they are now become a marketing tool and are sold for high cost of money. Do you support puppy mills as well??


----------



## Sadie

Monster777 said:


> who cares. there commonly linked to health problems and use to get culled out. which should be done today! not to mention these dogs now a day are bred for color which makes them a staff. not to metion they are now become a marketing tool and are sold for high cost of money. Do you support puppy mills as well??


So is every other red dog black dog ect that's bred for color blue is not the only color in the gene pool and certainly not the only color being bred you have many byb's who breed for red white black whatever they think will make them a profit. So I guess all those dogs are staffs too? You better look around you byb's are making money off all color dogs not just blue! And any dog who is bred for color alone is bound to have problems. I think you need to educate yourself and then come back and have this discussion. :hammer: Speaking of puppy mills weren't you just trying to sell pups on this forum? What makes you better than the next byb? Anyone who joins a forum just to peddle pups I am suspicious of.


----------



## DieselDawg

cane76 said:


> all that science is fine and dandy but i guarantee most people will not understand that,i don't,its like some sort of math equation,its like reading a foreign language.
> It may explain what genes cause the color[i guess?]but it doesn't explain why the genes exist in the first place,such as through inbreeding or just a natural trait such as albinism that just freakishly shows up,either way it isn't specific to amstaffs and apbts,all types of dogs are blue or grey,and it had to be a inherited trait of some sort.


Well you can't have a good discussion without it . These are the colors that ARE SPECIFIC to APBTs/Amstaffs. If you have an "mm" (Merle) or "chch" (chinchilla), then you know the dog is not a pure APBT. The genes are there from the original foundation dogs that were used to build this breed. Also, not all breeds have "blue-grey" or "liver" while other breeds have colors that are not included in APBTs. You really don't have to "understand" genetics to use what genetics gives us. Inbreeding/Linebreeding do not make different colors...the same palet is there no matter what...


----------



## dan'sgrizz

Wheres the dead horse i wanna take a whack at it! 6 pages....i think 3 of which are determining what gambred vs gamelines mean LOL lets just say.... I drew a blue duck because i had never seen a blue duck before...and i wanted to see one. Maybe billy madison crossbreeds apbt with blue ducks.


----------



## cane76

DieselDawg said:


> Inbreeding/Linebreeding do not make different colors...the same palet is there no matter what...


Well im not gonna argue with you,just give an example.
There was this scientist who took a bunch of foxes and tried to domesticate them,after a few generations the dogs color changed,anyone else see that,or am i crazy?


----------



## big hook

will this maddness ever end!!! we all no nobody is ganna give up on this!! can we agree to disagree and go on?


----------



## Marty

As long as people are breeding Blue to Blue For money/color, I say no it will never end


----------



## dan'sgrizz

interesting point cane! New blood to boil. Foxes are still wild though. Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years now. The "tameness" factos and color on the foxes is interesting. But I don't think it's applicable here unless you care to expand upon the topic and enlighten us. Unless someone can directly link the genetics of game to a color then will be debating. For that matter when they do if they do perhaps it will be another color that is downcast.


----------



## big hook

dan'sgrizz said:


> interesting point cane! New blood to boil. Foxes are still wild though. Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years now. The "tameness" factos and color on the foxes is interesting. But I don't think it's applicable here unless you care to expand upon the topic and enlighten us. Unless someone can directly link the genetics of game to a color then will be debating. For that matter when they do if they do perhaps it will be another color that is downcast.


i don't care either way on this issue but in the video he stated that when they got more tame foxes is when the color changes started. they had lower hormone levels than the wild ones that was some how causing the color changes. i think that was the point of the video and why he posted it.

breeding for color is totally wrong and yet the net is full of breeders who are doing it just for the money, not the betterment of the breed. that is where all the problems start. they don't breed for tempurment, or gameness. they are breeding for the color and bigger sizes that just don't meet the standards for our breed. they are trying to breed a large bully and make the rest of america believe that they are apbt's. the sad thing is most of america believes they are because they are uneducated.


----------



## dan'sgrizz

funny cuz they have fox dogs that are red and tame. I guess that throws that out the window. Flamingos color is influenced by there food. A peregrine falcons color is determined by it's enviroment some are a darker blue than others. Steelhead go from a silver to a dark green when they reach freshwater. There identical brothers the rainbow trout very in color thoughoit the same stream. None of these color changes effect these animals. Why would a dufference in color a change in pigments have any effect on the behavior of an animal. Perhaps next people will start talking about "cleansing" our nation if this blue "race" of dogs. If a pit is bred for color it's an amstaff if a pit bulldog happens to be blue it makes it's potential for gameness no less than the black dog the red or the white. If you really wanna find out you should go to Mexico and find out let me know how it goes. I'll be sitting here with my large athletic conformed pit bulldog carefully bred from game lines not caring how game he is. his litter had a blue tri, him, two black and whites and two fawn red noses. As a young pup he demonstrated the most intelligence and appeared to posess the most desirable traits from his parents. I took him first pick over these other colors because of his desirable traits. Certainly you can't tell everything at birth but he showed his true colors(LOL) first. His large size in no way limits his physical ability (5 months 45 lbs) and I don't consider him a bully. But he happens to be blue so people are bias for that reason. Don't hate because he's blue hate him because he's beautiful.


----------



## mrchatnjack

*THE TRUE STORY*

I am actually the true author of that article which was first posted online at game-dog.com a few years ago when soon after being posted it was maliciously stolen and reproduced without my permission by Rios Pit Bull Kingdom even though my post contained a written legal disclaimer expressly advising otherwise. Years of research, countless miles of travel time, thousands of hours of meticulously listening to old-timers stories, the monetary expenses of acquiring historical documentation; hand written letters, photos, ect that are part of a book Ive been working on for more than 20 years and that article, be it a very small piece was stolen from me without my consent and in neither was I credited with. I learned something though, never post private research again even when it is copyrighted. I grew up in the lowcountry of South Carolina. Charleston to be exact. My paternal grandmothers identical twin sister was married to R. Bobby Weaver. Her husband my paternal grandfather (who raised me) was a contractor and remodeled the store Bob Hemphill owned and operated in what most people today think was Summerville, S.C. however it was actually Knightsville, S.C. To this day Knightsville is still not a town but lays just outside of the Town of Summerville, S.C. City limits. Bobs store was located on the corner of Old Orangeburg Rd. and Embassy Dr. The store is still there however a lot of changes have been made including the building of a HESS gas station a few years back across from it and what was once a 4 way stop sign is now a traffic light. Bob Hemphill also managed the Summerville Ice Co. which contrary to belief wasnt located in Summerville at all but in North Charleston, S.C. (about 15 miles east) on Sprule Ave., my maternal grandmother still owns and leases out the commercial property it once sat on. My father was friends with and worked with David Tant at the Charleston Naval Shipyard (shop 38) and I remember Yellow as a pup and also spending time with my paternal grandfather and old man Chavis. Most people think that pure OFRN dogs are non existence. Not true. The lowcountry always was and still is home to the purest OFRN dogs that ever walk this earth. Like it or not, a fact is a fact. My cousins still breed true and keep a closed yard, no computers or conformation shows. My maternal grandfather probably had the biggest impact in my life though when it comes to this breed. Just before he passed he gave me box full of old letters and photos. Letters between himself, Earl Tudor, J. R. Loposay and many others. The letters and photos are priceless to me and above all a legacy I want left for my children therefore, since what Rios Pit Bull did and due to my wifes ill health I have come to the decision not offer my book for public sale once if ever it is completed. To those I have already promised a copy to, I am a man of my word and will stand behind it when and if it goes to print however, recently I have been compiling and writing here and there about Blade. That may be another story best left for another day long after Im gone.

With Kindest Regards
*CHATNJACK*


----------



## buzhunter

Well, it would be a damn shame if this was your only post. Hope you stick around.


----------



## Sadie

mrchatnjack said:


> I am actually the true author of that article which was first posted online at game-dog.com a few years ago when soon after being posted it was maliciously stolen and reproduced without my permission by Rios Pit Bull Kingdom even though my post contained a written legal disclaimer expressly advising otherwise. Years of research, countless miles of travel time, thousands of hours of meticulously listening to old-timers stories, the monetary expenses of acquiring historical documentation; hand written letters, photos, ect that are part of a book Ive been working on for more than 20 years and that article, be it a very small piece was stolen from me without my consent and in neither was I credited with. I learned something though, never post private research again even when it is copyrighted. I grew up in the lowcountry of South Carolina. Charleston to be exact. My paternal grandmothers identical twin sister was married to R. Bobby Weaver. Her husband my paternal grandfather (who raised me) was a contractor and remodeled the store Bob Hemphill owned and operated in what most people today think was Summerville, S.C. however it was actually Knightsville, S.C. To this day Knightsville is still not a town but lays just outside of the Town of Summerville, S.C. City limits. Bobs store was located on the corner of Old Orangeburg Rd. and Embassy Dr. The store is still there however a lot of changes have been made including the building of a HESS gas station a few years back across from it and what was once a 4 way stop sign is now a traffic light. Bob Hemphill also managed the Summerville Ice Co. which contrary to belief wasnt located in Summerville at all but in North Charleston, S.C. (about 15 miles east) on Sprule Ave., my maternal grandmother still owns and leases out the commercial property it once sat on. My father was friends with and worked with David Tant at the Charleston Naval Shipyard (shop 38) and I remember Yellow as a pup and also spending time with my paternal grandfather and old man Chavis. Most people think that pure OFRN dogs are non existence. Not true. The lowcountry always was and still is home to the purest OFRN dogs that ever walk this earth. Like it or not, a fact is a fact. My cousins still breed true and keep a closed yard, no computers or conformation shows. My maternal grandfather probably had the biggest impact in my life though when it comes to this breed. Just before he passed he gave me box full of old letters and photos. Letters between himself, Earl Tudor, J. R. Loposay and many others. The letters and photos are priceless to me and above all a legacy I want left for my children therefore, since what Rios Pit Bull did and due to my wifes ill health I have come to the decision not offer my book for public sale once if ever it is completed. To those I have already promised a copy to, I am a man of my word and will stand behind it when and if it goes to print however, recently I have been compiling and writing here and there about Blade. That may be another story best left for another day long after Im gone.
> 
> With Kindest Regards
> *CHATNJACK*


Very Glad to have you here ... you sound like you have a wealth of information regarding this great breed. I would love to hear more from you I hope you stick around and share some more history with us. Welcome to go pitbull thanks for sharing your story


----------



## dan'sgrizz

chatnjack... I hope you stick around. Your the man. I hope you publish that book too orcatleast sell me a copy for a kings ransom LOL. I love a good historian.


----------



## roe1880

Hey Chatnjack, It's a pleasure to be in anything that your in... I hope we do hear more from you and hope to learn plenty from you also... I know I'm not alone here on that... Thank you for sharing..


----------



## mrchatnjack

Thank all of you very much for such kind words here and via e-mail. For those of you whove asked, here are a few pictures of Blade taken at the 2004 ADBA Nationals. He was the very first blue dog in the history of the ADBA to ever win FIRST PLACE (9-12 month old males) & BEST PUPPY under Judge Joe Daly, BEST OF SHOW under Judge Mike Ellis and place at an ADBA NATIONALS (2004) under Judge Amy Greenwood Burford in one of largest classer ever to date (over 37 dogs) at that time, which took almost 45 minutes to judge. Immediately after the Judges seminar Hank Greenwood took a look at Blade and I quote, "Now thats a what a real blue dog should look like and what the one's my dad had looked like when I was growing up." During the day My wife and I spent a great deal of time with Kate Greenwood. Her daunting and praise for Blades conformation and attitude just blew us away. We had traveled so far expecting to only be ostracized due to Blades color but instead found real truely knowledgably dogmen and dogwomen who knew that blue was just that, a color. I honestly admit that most blue dogs bred today are bred for color and profit only however, as proven in Blades case, that is not always the case and as the old additive goes you cant judge a book by its cover! Blade opened the door in the ADBA for blue dogs to place and win. Rightfully so, Judge Joe Daly should also be credited with having the tenacity to stand up and do what was right that cold and windy day in Hickory, North Carolina by placing him. Although a lot of his piers gave him a ribbing about it, those same piers also later went on to place Blade their selves and are now today placing other blue dogs as well. I've left out so many details and haven't even scraped the surface of Blades story so to those who I owe credit or a thank you, I apologize, but there's just no way to write or thank every single person here or anywhere online in one post. Once again thank all of you so very much for such kind words here and via e-mail.

With Kindest Regards, 
*CHATNJACK*

(P.S.) I tried to post the pictures of Blade however recieved this message when I previewed it before posting... (The following errors occurred with your submission: You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more.) I guess or rather hope that you can go look in my photo section of this forum to see his pictures.


----------



## ForPits&Giggles

What a great looking boy ChatnJack, hope you stick around to teach youngin's like me a thing or two.


----------



## buzhunter

I'd love to know what's behind him. Sounds like you can understand both sides of the conversation. Again, I hope you stick around and share more of your knowledge on the whole blue topic. As you can see, it's a popular debate, lol.


----------



## Sadie

OMG! gORGEOUS BLUE dogs  blade is a proud blue apbt specimen ... I have one myself who isn't so bad looking for a blue dog! LOL she was the only blue dog in her litter and I ended up getting her brother simba who is a male fawn. I look forward to you being here


----------



## dan'sgrizz

I know this thread us lengthy but me and my bud were talking about this post and about the breeding of different colors. He seemed to think that when a red dog is bred to a black dog that you get blue dogs. Is this correct? Iknow it all depends on the genes but do red genes crossed with black genes make blue? Is this what the first post meant when it said the lightner dogs of the dark variety and the light variety were crossed? I was thinking back to my reading and remembering reading about most old dog men were partial to a color and didn't like breeding to outcrosses so maybe crossing some ofrn type colors with black dogs wouldn't be done. Maybe this is why blue wasn't so common back then and why it was frowned upon? Just some new fuel I mean thoughts to think about.


----------



## DieselDawg

dan'sgrizz said:


> I know this thread us lengthy but me and my bud were talking about this post and about the breeding of different colors. He seemed to think that when a red dog is bred to a black dog that you get blue dogs. Is this correct? I know it all depends on the genes but do red genes crossed with black genes make blue? Is this what the first post meant when it said the lightner dogs of the dark variety and the light variety were crossed? I was thinking back to my reading and remembering reading about most old dog men were partial to a color and didn't like breeding to outcrosses so maybe crossing some ofrn type colors with black dogs wouldn't be done. Maybe this is why blue wasn't so common back then and why it was frowned upon? Just some new fuel I mean thoughts to think about.


Yes a Black Dog mated with a Red Dog could throw "Blue". If the Black Dog was genotype Ag-Bb-Dd and the Red Dog was Ay-bb-Dd you could get a "Liver" (Ay-bb-dd) or a "Blue" (Ag-Bb-dd). It would probably be a litter where most pups were Black with a "liver or blue" pup thrown in.

Ag=Dark Pigment
Ay=Light Pigment 
BB or Bb=Phenotype Black
Ag bb=phenotype Brown
Ay bb=phenotype Yellow, Fawn
DD or Dd=Full Expression without dillution
dd=Dillution

It is not the Black mixed with Red that results in "blue or liver"...it is the allele "dd" that is needed to dilute the true color. The "dd" affects the dogs ability to produce the dark pigments...eumelanins.

Phenotype is the outward appearance
Genotype is the true genetic makeup

Hope that helps and is not too confusing

Diesel at 9 months doing his "Fargo" down from Turtlebuster pose
...not very Ambully IMO









with his "girlfriend" and "buddy (Pit Airedale Mix)









He is built just like my first APBT who was purebred...Thor (RIP after 17 great years)


----------



## dan'sgrizz

thanks diesel dawg yah he said the same thing you did I learned about genetics and punet squares in highscool and college bio. Very cool stuff. Do you have a reccomendation on books I could read to school myself. Where did you accumulate your vast knowledge of genetics ?


----------



## GnarlyBlue

VERY good info Sadie & mr Jack. It truly would be a terrible shame if such a compilation of FACTUAL information did not come to print. The truth is that most of the people who end up spraying misinformation about blue's are saying so only because there is so little definitive information readily available, and a lot of word of mouth, bias, and unsubstantiated rumor degrading blue dogs. I say judge a blue according to the standard of the breed, to distinguish a bully from an apbt, not the color!! 


To be honest I've never seen information on Blue Paul's other than seeing that name. It's easy to see through the description of that dog that it is peculiar to the standards of the APBT.


----------



## JCsmoke

TYVM SADDIE MADE A GREAT READ


----------



## LoveMyBullies

I wanted to really thank sadie for this read, sorry I didn't get to it sooner. My girl does not weigh 30 but she does not weigh 100 either. Georgia is a solid 65 and when she wants to be very athletic. I got a better pix of where the cost color is coming from with diesel's info. I have been dealing with horses ever since I could walk, and learned a lot about genetics when dealing with paints. They are a lot like the blues over priced and bred for color way too often. If you bred two paint horses there is a chance that they could produce a lethal white, which usually dies shortly after birth or us still born if I remember right. I can't remember the exact cause though. Anyway thanks for all the info. I really understand more about my girl now. If anyone hears about that book being published PLEASE let me know!


----------

