# Nervous about Kane ...



## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

So, it turns out the dog I'd thought I would be getting for my job (pest control company, using dogs to sniff out bed bugs) is not going to work out. She was a young, female golden retriever. I was happy because male/female introductions usually go easier, blahblahblah, yay a male/female household.

Well, since she won't work out, the other dog they're leaning towards is a rescue dog, mixed spitz-type breed and male. 

Kane is generally good with other dogs. I consider him a low to medium DA dog, because his aggression tends to be situational; he has high prey drive, which I learned the hard way this summer, and he could take or leave a dog that is rude.

Earlier this week, I dog-sat a UKC APBT for a friend, a young male named Jax. Kane handled it pretty well considering this was the first time they'd met--there was some initial snark from him, setting down the rules for Jax and letting him know what Kane would and would not allow him to do during play. But once they got that figured out, with me hovering over them to make sure corrections didn't get out of hand, etc, they played like best friends. I used their crates as mini-time outs and cool down areas if they started getting too rowdy and made sure Kane's chuck-it ball was put away, as that is his crack and I wouldn't have been surprised if he got possessive of it.

But that was just for three days.

This new dog is going to be living with me and Kane for as long as I have this job (or if the company decides this dog won't work out, whatever).

So yes. Really nervous about living with two male dogs in my (small) house, and I needed to vent somewhere, lol. :hammer:


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I have 2 male dogs who DONT get along and had 2 before this set ,crate and rotate works great as you already know  Im sure it wont be that bad , try like you did with the last male and see how it goes if it doesnt you can crate, or tellt he company a male dog isnt an option in your home. if its a company dog they should put up to house this dog properly if it doesnt work for you , really shouldnt fall on you especially if you dont have a say in what dog comes into your home. If it was my home id give them a list of breeds I will allow in here and the sex I will accept if they dont find one in those lists they canhouse the dog at the office and the dog can be picked up daily for work.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

There's really no way the company can house the dog, unfortunately. The corporate office is about an hour away and I'll be working out of their office in my city. Plus, I wouldn't want the dog I use to be living and housed somewhere else, because 1) it'll be more difficult to develop a bond and working relationship (IMO) and 2) I'll lose training opportunities and company time if I have to go back and forth to get him.

They did ask what I preferred in a dog. I said nothing smaller than 40lbs (high prey drive), but I didn't care about gender as much, although I preferred a female. The problem you run into when you start limiting the dog you want to work with by breed and gender and size is that it is SO HARD to find a dog with the appropriate drive to WANT to sniff for bed bugs AND have the physical requirements you want. Plus, you have to keep the public image thing in mind, so we're already limited on the breeds we can use (no "dangerous" dogs like pit bulls, rottweilers, gsd's, etc).

I mean, this is really my dream job and EVERYTHING is paid for with this company (2012 ford escape company car with a gas/maintenance card so I don't have to pay for gas/oil change/whatever; all dog supplies like toys, crate, vet bills, etcetc). I'll make it work.

I just ... wibble about my Kanedog and his reaction.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Oh thats good you got to kinda pick the size of the dog and stuff I wouldnt have been happy if they placed a small dog with me LOL cant stand small dogs. And if they are paying fro everything would they go for a dog run for outside? would help if you have to seperate them


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

Why be nervous? If they dont get alone just crate and rotate, its just that easy


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I have 4 game bred dogs all under the same roof it can be done  Just make sure you don't leave them alone ever. If they get out of hand crate and rotate you will be fine.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> Well I have 4 game bred dogs all under the same roof it can be done  Just make sure you don't leave them alone ever. If they get out of hand crate and rotate you will be fine.


While I agree with you Sadie i also would say given what you feed, you have been lucky thus far to not really have any major problems with peacefulness..Unless something has changed.

My two hounds tolerate each when being worked on good days, generally they are separated at all times.. I've also never had two dogs at once that could get along peacefully, i did briefly about 6 years ago for a few months but then "IT" hit the fan needless to say... Not to say this is how your two will be Kane as like Sadie said it can happen..

Just don't leave them alone together unattended for even the most brief moment, no matter how well of an impression there is.. During play time, training or work out exercises use your best judgement.. If they seem to get along go for it but expect to eventually crate and rotate..

Expect the worst and you are prepared, expect the best and you are in a world of hurt.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

I know, I know. Crate and rotate will save my butt, probably. I've just never been in a situation with a male/male household or where I've had to separate the dogs I have. I'm afraid that without that experience, it'll create problems.

Book smarts are all well and good, but experience is what you actually learn from.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

I promise chica crate and rotate is VERY easy it really is no big deal at all! If the dogs are properly kennel trained it's even less stressful then monitoring while there together even if they do get along. No chance of an ” accident” that way you know. I personally in your situation would crate and rotate just so they would never be able to say I damaged company property!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

KMdogs said:


> While I agree with you Sadie i also would say given what you feed, you have been lucky thus far to not really have any major problems with peacefulness..Unless something has changed.
> 
> My two hounds tolerate each when being worked on good days, generally they are separated at all times.. I've also never had two dogs at once that could get along peacefully, i did briefly about 6 years ago for a few months but then "IT" hit the fan needless to say... Not to say this is how your two will be Kane as like Sadie said it can happen..
> 
> ...


My point is not to say they can live under the same roof and actually get along .. My point is if you have space and crates you can manage these dogs just fine wether they will get along or not. I have a lot of control in my house and am able to manage my dogs just fine. My dog's do not run around in bliss and play with one another without issues. I am constantly intervening and I don't allow my dog's to stay focused on one another for too long. The dog's play sessions are very brief. Are they trying to kill one another no (at least not yet) but they will tolerate each other and I know what I am doing and how to handle these animals properly which is why I can manage 4 bulldogs under the same roof. People make it seem like it's so hard to manage these dog's when it's really not difficult if you have DA dog's crating and rotating is the easiest way to handle it. Kane if you are constantly having issues with getting both dog's to accept one another don't push it or force them to get along just separate. You will be ok if you need any help we are here do not be fearful because they will pick up on that. Just keep an eye on them at all times when they are out together.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

properly introduce them, dont just have a strange dog enter kanes home. As a working dog, he should be kept and crated properly according to his job as well. this dog isnt going to be a pet. or is it?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

PS If you bring any outside dog into my home my dog's will not even hesitate to take it out. I don't expect my dogs to be best friends but they better not act like crazy fools either we don't play that crap here. There is a difference in a dog who's just nuts and not manageable because it's had no home training or is fearful of other dogs and a dog who is well controlled, confident, and mentally stable but will take another dog out if the opportunity presents itself. Redog I agree with introducing them properly that is very important and may take patience and time which is another reason why you need an extra crate.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

i always let them meet on nuetral ground at least twice. if that works out i put my dog in the back yard and dont let them see eachother. new dog can come in and roam the house to leave a scent. new dog goes out the front door and my dog can come in the back and sniff around but not see the new dog. if my dog seems cool then they can go face to face in the back yard. if everything stays cool they can come in the house for a bit. no toys no treats and no focusing or rough play.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

My biggest issue, is as dav said this is a working dog, keep it safe and WORK IT!!! It does not need to be treated like a pet sleeping in bed with you playing with kane ect. Not saying you can't love on it and such but maybe, just put the dog in another category labeled worker and kane pet so minimum interaction between the two is needed. Especially with Kanes history it would probably just be the safest route. Its great he is getting along with your friends dogs but truthfully if they fight your friend will most likely forgive you alot quicker them a company who valuable property would have been the one damaged.
Do you understand what I mean?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

redog said:


> i always let them meet on nuetral ground at least twice. if that works out i put my dog in the back yard and dont let them see eachother. new dog can come in and roam the house to leave a scent. new dog goes out the front door and my dog can come in the back and sniff around but not see the new dog. if my dog seems cool then they can go face to face in the back yard. *if everything stays cool they can come in the house for a bit. no toys no treats and no focusing or rough play.*


There you go ... :goodpost: That's the ticket boss man. A lot of dog's will fight because they are fearful or unsure of themselves or because they feel threatened by the other dog. The idea is not to allow them to interact for extended periods of time. Keep it simple toys and food will most likely always result in a fight. Like Dave said don't allow them to become too focused on each other if the dog's get too rough step in and stop it. Lola was a little brat when she came home but she has gradually found her place in the home and with the dogs who couldn't even get near her when she first interacted with them. She tried snatching up the new pup and I stopped her in the act I am going to try them again in a few days just the two of them without Bogart and Ava around and see how they do. Best of luck to you Kane let us know how it goes.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> My point is not to say they can live under the same roof and actually get along .. My point is if you have space and crates you can manage these dogs just fine wether they will get along or not. I have a lot of control in my house and am able to manage my dogs just fine. My dog's do not run around in bliss and play with one another without issues. I am constantly intervening and I don't allow my dog's to stay focused on one another for too long. The dog's play sessions are very brief. Are they trying to kill one another no (at least not yet) but they will tolerate each other and I know what I am doing and how to handle these animals properly which is why I can manage 4 bulldogs under the same roof. People make it seem like it's so hard to manage these dog's when it's really not difficult if you have DA dog's crating and rotating is the easiest way to handle it. Kane if you are constantly having issues with getting both dog's to accept one another don't push it or force them to get along just separate. You will be ok if you need any help we are here do not be fearful because they will pick up on that. Just keep an eye on them at all times when they are out together.


I hear ya, i was more or less simply adding on to what you said.. While yes, it is manageable (and fairly easily) to those that are seasoned with multiple bulldogs my point in my post was making sure not to give the impression that these dogs can do well without crate and rotate, or give the false expectation of harmony.

I know you know what your doing, i know you know what your feeding.. If my post came off as i was questioning you it wasn't meant to be.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

No I didn't think you were questioning me just wanted to elaborate more about what I meant by my statement. Kane has been here long enough to at least know these dogs can and will fight even if you have DA dogs in the home it can still be managed very easily I was simply saying if I have 4 game bred dogs and can manage them all it's def do able that does not mean they will get along it just means you work around it. Ariel as far as treating working dog's differently than you would your own house pet I am going to have to disagree with you there. A working dog does not need to be treated any different they just require different needs that doesn't mean they should be isolated or limited from human contact and affection or that they shouldn't be allowed to sleep in the bed .There were box dog's like Virgil who slept on the couch, with the cat, and could even play with other dog's outside of the box. Tornado was another one who was kept in doors. Working dogs often make excellent pets and can be both a worker and a pet and still be treated the same as any other dog in the home. There is nothing wrong with having a strong bond with a working dog it just depends on how you want to treat them I guess.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

I actually agree with both sides of the working dog aspect.. A working dog reduced only as pet status is a waste, they should be treated as a working dog. Loving them and keeping them indoors isn't going to hurt anything however dogs kept outside that have that time apart from the handler can create a higher level of need to please...Eager to get worked.. 

A working dog is a working dog no matter how you cut it, bred properly, worked properly doesn't matter where they lay their head at the end of the day.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree with you there Km if your going to own a working dog it should be worked to it's fullest capability or it's a waste .... I just don't think it really matter's where they sleep on the floor, the bed, the couch, a chain spot a crate it really doesn't make a difference. Also working dogs should be smart enough to know when it's time to go to work it's time to work and when they are at home off the job they are just like any other dog or pet. However you want to keep them when they are in keep or preparing for a competition, hunting season ect that's a matter of preference.


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## crystalcountry (Dec 26, 2010)

Sadie said:


> I agree with you there Km if your going to own a working dog it should be worked to it's fullest capability or it's a waste .... I just don't think it really matter's where they sleep on the floor, the bed, the couch, a chain spot a crate it really doesn't make a difference. Also working dogs should be smart enough to know when it's time to go to work it's time to work and when they are at home off the job they are just like any other dog or pet. However you want to keep them when they are in keep or preparing for a competition, hunting season ect that's a matter of preference.


*like it matters* I agree 100% with KM and Sadie


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

The trainer I'm working with (hired by the company) has been employed by the military, FBI, and various police forces. He is very knowledgeable about training scent detection dogs and has a very honest and natural way with the dogs that's very easy to see.

He's explained to me in no uncertain terms (and this was the first day I met him, lol) that while I can treat my dog as a pet and give it all the attention and love and care that I would Kane--in the end, the dog is owned by the company and I have to keep that in mind. They could choose to give the dog to another handler in the future (as it's just me and one other handler right now) or they could decide the dog isn't going to work out and give me a new dog.

My plan is to treat the dog as I would Kane. I don't think it will be hard to keep in mind that the dog is my Work dog as I will be working and training with him every day. By the fact of the job, I'll be doing things with him that I won't be doing with Kane.

Hopefully, their introduction will go as well as Kane and Jax's ... I let them meet outside on leash first, took them on a walk together when things seemed to be going well, and then did what you mentioned Dave, letting Jax inside first to sniff around and the bringing Kane back and going from there. No toys or food or anything out, and I made sure to have their crates set up and ready to go.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

After what happened you are still putting Kane lose with other dogs in the home? Did you not learn your lesson? Apparently not... what are you going to tell your job when /if Kane kills this dog? If I have a dog who has that potential they are never placed with another dog. You need to keep them separate and the only time they need to interact is if they are on leash. SMH......


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> After what happened you are still putting Kane lose with other dogs in the home? Did you not learn your lesson? Apparently not... what are you going to tell your job when /if Kane kills this dog? If I have a dog who has that potential they are never placed with another dog. You need to keep them separate and the only time they need to interact is if they are on leash. SMH......


:goodpost::goodpost: I had forgotten about that, the best thing to do is crate and rotate.. If your work dog gets hurt by Kane how do you think the company is going to react? Its the companies dog and if the dog gets hurt by fault of yours by trusting Kane you are costing the company money..Whether they understand the breed or not will be set aside and i can only imagine the news that could potentially stem from this scenario.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

cur dog or not, get 2 crates. now keep 1 crate full at all times. the end.


km is right, working dogs work better when they arent coddled like toddlers, lisa has said the same same thing. i would keep the worker outside, hell show more willingness to please at work by doing that


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

performanceknls said:


> After what happened you are still putting Kane lose with other dogs in the home? Did you not learn your lesson? Apparently not... what are you going to tell your job when /if Kane kills this dog? If I have a dog who has that potential they are never placed with another dog. You need to keep them separate and the only time they need to interact is if they are on leash. SMH......


Ok seriously this is what I was trying to say in nicer terms. IT'S NOT WORTH THE RISK WHY FREAKIN TRY!!!! Your setting your pup up for failure here imho. I just can't agree with you at all on this one

To the others of course a working dog can sleep in bed or wearever, but the companies dog does not need to be sleeping in bed next to the Kane who has a past such as his. Which is why I recommend treating and even thinking of the two dogs on completely separate terms. One pet one working dog that COMPANY property. Just like you wouldn't go mudding in the company truck, at least not if you had a lick of since anyways!


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## APBT Handler (Oct 17, 2011)

In your case crating and rotating is the best choice.

I personally do not understand why some people get more than one dog purposely with the intention of having to crate and rotating. The only reason I have ever crated and rotated is if I was watching or foresting someone elses dog. I don't think it is fair to get two dogs knowing they will have to be crated. It is not the dog's fault that they are dog aggressive, it falls on the owner. If you have one APBT do not get another. This way your dog will be able to live and enjoy life outside a crate.

The only other times I support crate and rotate is for working dogs and someone who is watching a dog for someone else.

Again these are my personal opinions.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Thank you Aireal, Lisa, and KM!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

zohawn said:


> cur dog or not, get 2 crates. now keep 1 crate full at all times. the end.
> 
> km is right, working dogs work better when they arent coddled like toddlers, lisa has said the same same thing. i would keep the worker outside, hell show more willingness to please at work by doing that


If you look back in your history books at some of the greatest dogs like tornado virgil centipede zebo bloero twoeyes, etc etc all were house dogs or spent the majority of time in the house a real bulldog doesn't care where he is raised as long as he is taken care of and does not live in a crate 24/7 it doesn't change his work ethic! I don't care what anyone says it's been proven that it doesn't matter.

As far as Kane goes I forgot about him and the puppy. Kane because of his history you are better off limiting contact between him and the new dog. If this dog does not belong to you than you are liable if anything happens to it there is no insurance policy that will protect you if Kane decides to take out the dog or if the dog get's hurt under your care.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

youre naming fighting dogs and that has nothing to do with working dogs. 

when i say the worker can go outside im not refering to a keep, im refering to a dog that has a job and will work better for the handler.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks for your opinions guys.

I guess I still don't understand why I can't have Kane with other dogs (as in, my friend's dog) on a limited basis as long as I'm understanding the risks involved (ie, a fight, death, etc). This was a one-off situation and because of my previous experience with Ellie, I took several precautions I wouldn't have before.

Crate and rotate for the long-term with my work dog will be easy to put into place. My working dog will be with me all day 5 days a week, so I'll keep him in his crate at night and let Kane out. And then do weekends like you would normally, every few hours.



APBT Handler said:


> In your case crating and rotating is the best choice.
> 
> I personally do not understand why some people get more than one dog purposely with the intention of having to crate and rotating. The only reason I have ever crated and rotated is if I was watching or foresting someone elses dog. I don't think it is fair to get two dogs knowing they will have to be crated. It is not the dog's fault that they are dog aggressive, it falls on the owner. If you have one APBT do not get another. This way your dog will be able to live and enjoy life outside a crate.
> 
> ...


A few things (for both you and others to think over since you weren't the only one to say something similar about why I would get another dog):

1) I'm not getting this dog just to get a dog. I got this dog for a JOB, which will have benefits and pay at least two levels above what my previous job provided me. This new job will allow me to be more independent, taking me out of a minimum wage, paycheck-to-paycheck lifestyle. I wouldn't put Kane into this situation if there wasn't some benefit to it overall.

2) I never once said it was Kane's fault he was DA, but it's not the "owner's fault" either. It's neither the dog's fault or the owner's, but the owner can be smart and manage the situation as several people have said.

3) As you said:

_I don't think it is fair to get two dogs knowing they will have to be crated. It is not the dog's fault that they are dog aggressive, it falls on the owner. If you have one APBT do not get another._

^ if that were the case, there would be several people here who wouldn't have more than one dog/APBT.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

zohawn said:


> youre naming fighting dogs and that has nothing to do with working dogs.
> 
> when i say the worker can go outside im not refering to a keep, im refering to a dog that has a job and will work better for the handler.


A pit dog is a working dog LOL dog fighting last time I checked was a sport a blood sport yes but it's still a sport ! I am not talking about a keep I am talking about any dog who is bred to perform a certain duty or task. Fighting dogs have a job they don't just dance around on their tippie toes in the box they are in the box to work. Yes it's a blood sport but it's still a sport if you consider Agility, Shutzhund ect sports than dog fighting would fall under the umbrella.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

k8nkane said:


> Thanks for your opinions guys.
> 
> I guess I still don't understand why I can't have Kane with other dogs (as in, my friend's dog) on a limited basis as long as I'm understanding the risks involved (ie, a fight, death, etc). This was a one-off situation and because of my previous experience with Ellie, I took several precautions I wouldn't have before.
> 
> ...


If you don't get it by now I don't think you ever will... Wow...smmfh


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I would just worry about you leaving Kane by himself all day when you take the new dog with you everyday. Not sure but would that cause him to get pissed off more and more? or would he just ignore that you and the new dog spend all day together?

Plus I thought the puppy situation was because you left them unsupervised for a minute? Why are people acting like its the same situation with a grown dog being supervised vs. a puppy being left with an APBT unsupervised?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

APBT Handler said:


> I personally do not understand why some people get more than one dog purposely with the intention of having to crate and rotating. The only reason I have ever crated and rotated is if I was watching or foresting someone elses dog. I don't think it is fair to get two dogs knowing they will have to be crated.


Then by that logic nobody should ever own more than one dog of any breed, because there is always that potential. Its just more severe with APBTs. Dogs raised together may turn on over a trigger or over nothing in particular, and you can't train that out no matter what anybody says. How many times do you read about people "getting rid of" a dog because it started fighting with another dog? Even when dogs get along, you may have to crate and rotate during feeding times, when toys are out, when there's a female in heat, etc. Crate and rotate is a fact of life for many of us. Others execute a different form of that, but they use chains or kennels instead of crates. If you own more than one APBT and they aren't disposable, you have to prepare for the possibility, probability, and eventuality that they will not be able to get along their whole lives.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

APBT Handler said:


> In your case crating and rotating is the best choice.
> 
> I personally do not understand why some people get more than one dog purposely with the intention of having to crate and rotating. The only reason I have ever crated and rotated is if I was watching or foresting someone elses dog. I don't think it is fair to get two dogs knowing they will have to be crated. It is not the dog's fault that they are dog aggressive, it falls on the owner. If you have one APBT do not get another. This way your dog will be able to live and enjoy life outside a crate.
> 
> ...


Kind of odd you would post something like that and your name is APBT Handler... :hammer: Its not cruel to a dog to crate and rotate, its their own place and if properly crate trained they are more than willing to go in there for a few hours while the other is out. By that logic no one should own more than one dog as already mentioned as well as breeding.. Why breed if they are going to be crate and rotated by your opinion.. You may feel the way you do about your own dogs but don't question me or anyone else for having more than one dog just because they don't get along. I work my dogs, they both have a purpose in life vs being just pets and being utterly miserable if i were to just ditch one of them off. My dogs are happy, healthy and have all they need and then some.

If you can't handle the idea of crate and rotate i don't know why you would even chose to own a fighting dog. Much of the "ideas" for other breeds can not be done with this breed.



Sadie said:


> A pit dog is a working dog LOL dog fighting last time I checked was a sport a blood sport yes but it's still a sport ! I am not talking about a keep I am talking about any dog who is bred to perform a certain duty or task. Fighting dogs have a job they don't just dance around on their tippie toes in the box they are in the box to work. Yes it's a blood sport but it's still a sport if you consider Agility, Shutzhund ect sports than dog fighting would fall under the umbrella.


:goodpost: A working dog isn't defined by a certain task, its defined by how well it can perform that task. A [] dog is still a working dog, its a raw athlete.. Theres also a reason why many working breeds owe partial thanks to the APBT..

Lets not turn this thread into something its not, whether you keep a dog outside or inside is not going to make or break a working dog, it should be able to perform regardless.. I personally believe in many cases keeping out doors can benefit the bond and work ethics per se, however that doesn't mean every single dog breed will benefit from that practice.. I've seen some excellent working dogs (and as Sadie has already pointed out some [] dogs have been known..) that have been housed indoors with zero effects... For that matter my dogs are not outside all the time and often rotated between outside and inside or just kept inside.. Its a personal choice and in my opinion each dog is different in that respect.. Some i have kept strictly outside, some slept inside always..

Regardless, i didn't mean to start this debate..Its not really what the thread is about.

Kane, just be smart about your situation. Its happened before, this isn't a breed to take lightly and any situation can turn a dog from cold to hot.. Just because it hasn't happened or may not happen doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared and take every step you can.. You've been here long enough and many of us have helped you with a great deal, you should know being over prepared with these dogs is being prepared..anything else is just not. Stop trying to defend what there isn't to defend and allow yourself to see things for what they are.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

ames said:


> I would just worry about you leaving Kane by himself all day when you take the new dog with you everyday. Not sure but would that cause him to get pissed off more and more? or would he just ignore that you and the new dog spend all day together?
> 
> Plus I thought the puppy situation was because you left them unsupervised for a minute? Why are people acting like its the same situation with a grown dog being supervised vs. a puppy being left with an APBT unsupervised?


Kane will be fine by himself during the day. I've crated him for 8-9 hours while at my previous job. Give him a stuffed kong and a nylabone, and he's all set.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

k8nkane said:


> Kane will be fine by himself during the day. I've crated him for 8-9 hours while at my previous job. Give him a stuffed kong and a nylabone, and he's all set.


no I meant of jealously, not being alone part, but I get you. I know its fine at work, ist the leaving with the dog and coming home with the dog might make him jealous you are always leaving him is all I meant  But that's just me probably projecting human feelings on the dog again lol.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

The sleeping outside versus inside debate isn't up for debate anyways, as the company doesn't want their dogs housed or kept outside. They want the dogs treated like our own dogs (albeit, with the knowledge that the dog could be taken away at any time and IS owned by the company and not us).

Thank you KM, I appreciate your insight.

Lauren, I guess I won't ever get what you think I'm missing. It's not like I'll ever put any of my dogs (now or in the future) into the same position, unsupervised and riled up during play. It's kind of hard to forget watching your dog die in front of you because of a mistake you made.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Oh, jealousy. It's possible, but I won't accept it. I don't care if Kane corrects the other dog or is corrected by the other dog for a valid reason. But I won't accept snark done out of jealousy or corrections that I can see are leading towards getting out of hand. A correction, bam, you're done. There's no need for anything more and I'll be right there to correct Kane (or the other dog) if it happens.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

So I'm assuming you will disregard everyones advace and have the dogs together?...sigh


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

Aireal said:


> So I'm assuming you will disregard everyones advace and have the dogs together?...sigh


That's what it sounds like. Not even sure what the point was in posting this to begin with....


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

What is the problem, she said she is going to crate and rotate if they do not do well after being introduced. Are people thinking this is wrong because she should instantly crate and rotate and NEVER EVER introduce her dog to another dog ever because it killed a puppy when being left alone unsupervised?? I would think all unsupervised killings should be treated differently than if they killing happened right in front of the owner and they could not garner control to stop it. Or should a dog that has killed prey NEVER EVER meet another dog, EVER. period. bottom line. Is that what she (and I) are missing??

Just trying to get clarification on why people are giving her a hard time. Its one thing to not listen, but it seems like she is taking steps to ensure it never happens again, isn't that the point of learning from mistakes? I must be missing it too so don't just say she doesn't get it, please explain WHAT they are not getting instead of popping in just to shake your head, lol....


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## APBT Handler (Oct 17, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> Kind of odd you would post something like that and your name is APBT Handler... :hammer: Its not cruel to a dog to crate and rotate, its their own place and if properly crate trained they are more than willing to go in there for a few hours while the other is out. By that logic no one should own more than one dog as already mentioned as well as breeding.. Why breed if they are going to be crate and rotated by your opinion.. You may feel the way you do about your own dogs but don't question me or anyone else for having more than one dog just because they don't get along. I work my dogs, they both have a purpose in life vs being just pets and being utterly miserable if i were to just ditch one of them off. My dogs are happy, healthy and have all they need and then some.
> 
> If you can't handle the idea of crate and rotate i don't know why you would even chose to own a fighting dog. Much of the "ideas" for other breeds can not be done with this breed.
> 
> ...


KM, you are correct by my logic a lot of people should not own more than one dog, let alone an APBT. I stated in a different thread that crate and rotate is understandable with working dogs. My "opinion" is not understanding crate and rotate of "petbulls". My dogs are not crated and rotated and are together quite a bit. I understand the breed is DA and can go off at anytime. For me, I limit that chance by training them and working with them certain ways. At one time I have had 4 APBT's 1 Doberman, and 1 Rott in the same household for 8 months and never had one problem. Could there have been a problem? Yea, but there wasn't. Point is each dog owner is different and each dog is different. Just because this breed has DA doesn't mean they will. A knowledgable owner can see the signs before it starts happening. I have read quite a few of your posts and some are helpful and others, well lets just say should be researched a bit more as people new to the breed who come here for info don't need to be thrown off.:hammer:

As of Kane, I realize this dog is for a job but you have to think about the situation you will be placing your current dog in.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok I want to add this and then I am done with this thread. Kane you saw how ugly DA can get with Kane and that was a wake up call for you at how these dog's can turn the switch on and off when they want to. Kane might not have any issues with this new dog however because he is not owned by you the girls have a point that if something were to happen to this dog it would be your fault. So you have to understand the risks involved here. You know you own an APBT you know Kane has already shown you that there is a level of DA in him. Wether it was isolated or not you won't know until it happens again. You need to really proceed very carefully though if your going to allow him to interact with any other dog I know people make mistakes I would be lying if I said I have never had mishaps with these dogs because I have. You just have to learn from them and do not make the habit of repeating them. You really don't have to do much here but keep both dog crates in different area's of the home when one dog is out the other one is kept in. Brief interactions on the leash is ok but don't let them get too comfortable just keep in mind this other dog is not yours so you need to make sure you don't allow anything to happen to it while it's in your home.


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

ames said:


> What is the problem, she said she is going to crate and rotate if they do not do well after being introduced. Are people thinking this is wrong because she should instantly crate and rotate and NEVER EVER introduce her dog to another dog ever because it killed a puppy when being left alone unsupervised?? I would think all unsupervised killings should be treated differently than if they killing happened right in front of the owner and they could not garner control to stop it. Or should a dog that has killed prey NEVER EVER meet another dog, EVER. period. bottom line. Is that what she (and I) are missing??
> 
> Just trying to get clarification on why people are giving her a hard time. Its one thing to not listen, but it seems like she is taking steps to ensure it never happens again, isn't that the point of learning from mistakes? I must be missing it too so don't just say she doesn't get it, please explain WHAT they are not getting instead of popping in just to shake your head, lol....


No I'm not saying never introduce him to other dogs, him and jax whatever her friend knew whats up so it was obviously worth the risk so I don't care. With this dog however there is a HUGE risk that will jeopardize you job and Kane if the company dog gets harmed. I really don't understand why you people can't understand this.

Ive said it before I'll say it again it's not now or will it ever be the fighters that get are breed banned but the " good" well meaning dog lovers that shouldn't own a pit to begin with! Now kanes mom I'm not saying you need kane takin away or whatever but think before you ever get another pit. Seriously I'm not trying to offen you just want you to think.

Like here, I have a best friend she's like a sister she thought she wanted a pit because she loved my dogs. But you know what after educating her she actually took in the information I gave her and has decided she loves pits but would not make a good pit owner. She's not offended when I tell her please never own a pit you'll endanger my breed. Instead she says I won't I'm happy lovin on your girls. And she says it with a smile!!!

Imma step off my soap box now but just saying THINK ABOUT IT!!!


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Aireal said:


> I really don't understand why you people can't understand this.
> 
> Ive said it before I'll say it again it's not now or will it ever be the fighters that get are breed banned but the " good" well meaning dog lovers that shouldn't own a pit to begin with! Now kanes mom I'm not saying you need kane takin away or whatever but think before you ever get another pit. Seriously I'm not trying to offen you just want you to think.


I understand about the job part, of course, and she would probably have to pay to re-train a replacement if something ever happened. Who is to say she should not get another dog, she isn't even saying it will be another pit in her posts. Lots of people own multi dog households and also take part in one form or another on C&R.

Why can't people see a difference of a dog not being supervised and one that is? What are you seeing that I am not, and people not explaining themselves in the first place. My dog would tear into a bunch of things if I was not around to re-direct him, so I don't get why people are so up in arms since she learned from her mistake is is figuring out what she needs to do to not let it happen again.

Stay on your soap box, its how I learn and hear options, so its all good. Who said pits were for everyone? I don't think that's what the question is. From what I read its how can I introduce a dog and people responded with advice in between the snarkyness. I think Sadie said it best, never let your guard down, and only introduce them on leash if you HAVE to introduce them. and like redog said, do it off site the first few times if you can. Let them get to smell each other before they live together.

Its a catch 22, how to treat your work dog like a pet and bond with them without putting them in danger or neglecting the other that was your pet first.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

my personal pitbull rule #1
NEVER SET YOUR DOG UP TO FAIL

Kate you can do this, its an op of a lifetime! just tighten it up a little and youll be fine


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## Aireal (Jul 2, 2010)

ames said:


> I understand about the job part, of course, and she would probably have to pay to re-train a replacement if something ever happened. Who is to say she should not get another dog, she isn't even saying it will be another pit in her posts. Lots of people own multi dog households and also take part in one form or another on C&R.
> 
> Why can't people see a difference of a dog not being supervised and one that is? What are you seeing that I am not, and people not explaining themselves in the first place. My dog would tear into a bunch of things if I was not around to re-direct him, so I don't get why people are so up in arms since she learned from her mistake is is figuring out what she needs to do to not let it happen again.
> 
> ...


Ok so here is the thing if she bought her own dog to work I would just brush it off, cause seriously if kane killed that one too well that would be on her shoulders. But that's not this situation and why I have issues. Do you understand that? This is a situation that has the potential to be one more strike against ALL our dogs!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

redog said:


> my personal pitbull rule #1
> NEVER SET YOUR DOG UP TO FAIL
> 
> Kate you can do this, its an op of a lifetime! just tighten it up a little and youll be fine


:goodpost:Good Post redog I have faith in you Kane just don't allow your human emotions to cloud your better judgement. Sometimes it's hard to forget how these dog's can really be we love them so much and they are extremely great dogs to own but they have a very different genetic make up which can sometimes be really ugly like what you saw with that pup. I know you love Kane just don't forget what he is capable of doing it doesn't make him a bad dog nor does it make you a bad owner just have to pay attention to the signs the dog's will never lie to you. It's good that your second guessing yourself that means your thinking about everything which is good. Kane is your's you are accountable for anything he does just remember that when bringing another dog into the home. That incident that happened never forget it that is just a reminder of how bad things can get when we second guess or underestimate a bulldog. Always stay one step ahead of them and you will be A ok.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Aireal said:


> Ok so here is the thing if she bought her own dog to work I would just brush it off, cause seriously if kane killed that one too well that would be on her shoulders. But that's not this situation and why I have issues. Do ypu understand that?


yeah totally, that's why she is asking for advice. I am sure she cares about her dog as much as the breed it represents, but that's not for me to decide. the goal is I hope she would have learned the first time never ever to let Kane be set up to fail. If your answer is lock him in the house and never have contact with another animal or do XYZ, etc. Do you know the story? If I remember the puppy was weeks old and was left unsupervised. As long as she doesn't ever leave her dog along or let her guard down around another animal and hers, how would that be detrimental? I know lots of good responsible owners who had to learn that lesson the hard way, and luckily it was with her own 2 dogs. But IMO she did learn, hence coming here to discuss. that's why I was asking for people to clarify, not to try and piss you off. I also think coming here to discuss is trying to never set her dog up to fail.

I seriously thought people who c&r never ever let their dogs have contact with anything at any time. For most people that isn't the case, its just always controlled and 100000% supervised. I just learned by reading not by doing. Some people don't have that luxury first, like your family who went to you for advice.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

One thing that I want to add, that might help people understand this situation better, is that both of my bosses, as well as the trainer I'll be working with, KNOW what Kane did to Ellie. I didn't sugar-coat it. I told them, point-blank during the interviewing process (multiple interviews with everyone), that Kane HAS killed another dog, this was the situation in which he killed the other dog (I left them unsupervised, play got out of hand, etc).

They know all of that and are comfortable with it. One of my bosses owns a pit bull, the other one has family with one, and the trainer has worked with pit bulls. They aren't unfamiliar with the breed and biased by the media. They're probably like I was, and naive to the potential of these dogs with DA, as I can tell you they were shocked when I told them what Kane had done, BUT, like I said, they're comfortable with the risk they are taking. I out-lined the steps I'll be taking to prevent anything in the future (hello, supervision, among others), I've told them the "signs" I'll be looking for (as Kane is not a dog that attacks seemingly out of nowhere), etcetc.

And yes, to answer your questions, I WILL be letting them meet on leash to allow them to satisfy their curiosity about each other. I live in a small house and if they're curious about each other (which I'm sure they will be), I want their curiosity to be satisfied OUTSIDE in case of any issues.

I know I made a mistake before, but that's an experience I've learned from, have done MORE research on than I had before (since obviously what I knew previously wasn't enough to prevent my stupidity from killing one of my dogs), and won't be repeating again. I'm not naive anymore to the potential of DA in Kane.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> One thing that I want to add, that might help people understand this situation better, is that both of my bosses, as well as the trainer I'll be working with, KNOW what Kane did to Ellie. I didn't sugar-coat it. I told them, point-blank during the interviewing process (multiple interviews with everyone), that Kane HAS killed another dog, this was the situation in which he killed the other dog (I left them unsupervised, play got out of hand, etc).
> 
> They know all of that and are comfortable with it. One of my bosses owns a pit bull, the other one has family with one, and the trainer has worked with pit bulls. They aren't unfamiliar with the breed and biased by the media. They're probably like I was, and naive to the potential of these dogs with DA, as I can tell you they were shocked when I told them what Kane had done, BUT, like I said, they're comfortable with the risk they are taking. I out-lined the steps I'll be taking to prevent anything in the future (hello, supervision, among others), I've told them the "signs" I'll be looking for (as Kane is not a dog that attacks seemingly out of nowhere), etcetc.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to bash you for your previous mistake and i know you felt horrible before and want to prevent it as much as possible.. What you just need to understand is when you start talking about them being together, Kane with any dog, from an outsiders point of view it doesn't seem you learned all that much from your past.. At least, for me it doesn't.. You know what went wrong and i know you mean well, things can happen in a blink of an eye and you need to make sure you are prepared for every scenario possible..

If you chose to let them meet and greet do as you say you will and keep them leashed, be sure you are not the only person handling both and be sure someone else is holding the work dog as a just in case to limit any damage if things were to go south..

I would also (again if this was me) rarely let them interact, if at all.. I wouldn't risk allowing them to play with toys together nor would i risk them eating remotely the same time. Spread out the time spent as much as possible, if you want to let them out in the backyard or something briefly be sure they are both leashed and you are always right there.

I'm sure you get the idea but the last thing i want to hear from you is having yet another situation that should of and could of been avoided as i have higher expectations from you compared to someone else with less experience.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I would put a muzzle on Kane around the other dog if your going to allow them to interact even on a leash.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Sadie said:


> I would put a muzzle on Kane around the other dog if your going to allow them to interact even on a leash.


:goodpost: And not a cheap rubber or plastic one either. I have metal muzzles with leather straps, cost around $40 for each but price will vary depending on size and where you get them from.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I would get him something like this ... You don't want to be left trying to stitch up dogs it only takes but a hot second to do some damage. Get Kane something like this and make him wear it around the other dog.

Leerburg | Pitbull Wire Muzzle


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## Celestial88 (Mar 14, 2011)

Here's a nicely priced durable muzzle that dogs can comfortably eat and drink from, as well as pant.
Baskerville Ultra Dog Muzzle, Flexible Comfortable Basket Muzzle


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

This is almost exactly like the ones i have NEW Fully padded hard dogs working metal muzzle - M57 [NEW Fully padded hard dogs working metal muzzle - M] - $79.90 : Dog harness , Dog collar , Dog leash , Dog muzzle - Dog training equipment from Trusted Direct Source - Home, Dog Supplies though i didn't get them from that site, i personally wouldn't pay that price for a muzzle but to kind of give you an idea of what i was talking about.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

APBT Handler said:


> ...crate and rotate is understandable with working dogs. My "opinion" is not understanding crate and rotate of "petbulls"... Just because this breed has DA doesn't mean they will. A knowledgable owner can see the signs before it starts happening.


What difference does it make? My dogs are always pets first. Doesn't stop them from scrapping. Or does the propensity to fight automatically make them working dogs? Seeing the signs doesn't mean you can prevent or correct the behavior, or even that you should try. I'd rather have people a bit paranoid and taking more precautions than thinking that they'll be fine and leaning towards the lax.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

I actually am just starting to get Mel used to a muzzle, not sure when you are getting the other dog, but introduce it to him with lots of treats, get ones you can fit a treat through the wire and give him lots of treats and what not so he isn't hating the thing straight off.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

bahamutt99 said:


> What difference does it make? My dogs are always pets first. Doesn't stop them from scrapping. Or does the propensity to fight automatically make them working dogs? Seeing the signs doesn't mean you can prevent or correct the behavior, or even that you should try. I'd rather have people a bit paranoid and taking more precautions than thinking that they'll be fine and leaning towards the lax.


:goodpost: Thinking they will get along or treating them as they will...will only lead to disaster about 9 times out of 10..People get it or they don't.. I don't think anyone with experience handling these types of dogs would argue that.. They shouldn't anyway... Too much dog whisperer too little real life experiences.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks for the muzzle recommendations. I've ordered the basket muzzle and expedited it here. I should be getting my dog towards the end of next week. Until Kane gets comfortable wearing the muzzle, they will be on strict crate-n-rotate.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

k8nkane said:


> Thanks for the muzzle recommendations. I've ordered the basket muzzle and expedited it here. I should be getting my dog towards the end of next week. Until Kane gets comfortable wearing the muzzle, they will be on strict crate-n-rotate.


Good Job girl!:clap:


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

Can't wait to hear how it goes!


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

KMdogs said:


> :goodpost: Thinking they will get along or treating them as they will...will only lead to disaster about 9 times out of 10..People get it or they don't.. I don't think anyone with experience handling these types of dogs would argue that.. They shouldn't anyway... Too much dog whisperer too little real life experiences.


funny you should mention CM. just saw an episode where 2 petbulls were fighting


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> One thing that I want to add, that might help people understand this situation better, is that both of my bosses, as well as the trainer I'll be working with, KNOW what Kane did to Ellie. I didn't sugar-coat it. I told them, point-blank during the interviewing process (multiple interviews with everyone), that Kane HAS killed another dog, this was the situation in which he killed the other dog (I left them unsupervised, play got out of hand, etc).
> 
> They know all of that and are comfortable with it. One of my bosses owns a pit bull, the other one has family with one, and the trainer has worked with pit bulls. They aren't unfamiliar with the breed and biased by the media. They're probably like I was, and naive to the potential of these dogs with DA, as I can tell you they were shocked when I told them what Kane had done, BUT, like I said, they're comfortable with the risk they are taking. I out-lined the steps I'll be taking to prevent anything in the future (hello, supervision, among others), I've told them the "signs" I'll be looking for (as Kane is not a dog that attacks seemingly out of nowhere), etcetc.
> 
> ...


I know this is old but the highlighted reasons are why the trainer and your boss do not understand this breed. Any trainer that really knows this breed would not be shocked at all by the death of the pup. I just hope you stay on top of it and allow them only to be only leash and in a controlled setting when around each other. Even a muzzle can do damage or get taken off if not on right. Hope it works for you.


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