# "Muggleston's Pitbull Farm....Promoting the Breed"



## cherol (Jan 7, 2007)

I would like to ask everyone here if they consider these "true pit bulls" and if in fact they are able to win conformation shows?

Does anyone truly appreciate what this "bloodline" has brought to the breed?

http://muglestonspitbullfarm.com/produced.html


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Nope....oke:


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

I wouldn't consider them an APBT and I don't see how it would be possible for them to excell in conformation they are far from being ADBA OR UKC standard.


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## cherol (Jan 7, 2007)

That's what I thought. It actually makes me pretty sick to see that people have turned a wonderful and beautiful breed in to this. But my question is this " How do people still get away with them being "purple ribbon" and "CH" and "GR CH".....Even if they could win I think they should not be allowed to compete. This is not "promoting the breed" !!!! THis is the breed's downfall!!!


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

Not no way, not no how.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

cherol said:


> That's what I thought. It actually makes me pretty sick to see that people have turned a wonderful and beautiful breed in to this. But my question is this " How do people still get away with them being "purple ribbon" and "CH" and "GR CH".....Even if they could win I think they should not be allowed to compete. This is not "promoting the breed" !!!! THis is the breed's downfall!!!


But my question is this " How do people still get away with them being "purple ribbon" and "CH" and "GR CH"....
Your guess is as good as mine....Don't get me wrong though, I'm sure they are a good dog......


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

Because the people who purchase dogs from them are as about as educated on the breed standard as the people peddlin' them.

You can register anything, it does not mean it's show-quality or to standard. There are many opinions and rumors on the heritage of these dogs, so believe what you wish. But they are no where near what an APBT is, was, or will ever be.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

bully said:


> I wouldn't consider them an APBT and I don't see how it would be possible for them to excell in conformation they are far from being ADBA OR UKC standard.


Dont say that on ratemypitbull,you might get banned from the site,lol...them dogs arent apbts,some of the pedigrees only have juan gotti in them,and he wasnt a pure bred dog either,plus there called muglestons"pitbull farm",now thats just what we need,somebody breeding psuedo pitbulls in mass quanitys in these times of desperation for the real apbt.There liars across the board!


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## Bullygirl807 (Jan 24, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> Because the people who purchase dogs from them are as about as educated on the breed standard as the people peddlin' them.
> 
> You can register anything, it does not mean it's show-quality or to standard. There are many opinions and rumors on the heritage of these dogs, so believe what you wish. But they are no where near what an APBT is, was, or will ever be.


Nice answer. Couldn't have siad it better myself.:cheers:


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I'm sure that there are people out there that truely think these are APBT but they are not what I think of when someone tells me they have a pitbull. I think that if they want to breed dogs like this they should have to use a different name for them other than pitbull or APBT. That is my 2 cents


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## *Titan James* (Dec 6, 2006)

Those are cross bread "pitbull's" on steroids.:flush:


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## joshc767 (Jan 23, 2007)

Also how to they con people into paying these prices, for these dogs?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

joshc767 said:


> Also how to they con people into paying these prices, for these dogs?


Because they sell to profesional athletes,hip hop artists and your basic yo yo who has the $ to burn for a fad bred image booster...
bling bling bling,money aint a thing.....There dog goliath is for sale for 13,000$
and tips the scales at a massive 130 pounds of dog...


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## YJSONLY (Oct 11, 2006)

I KNOW A GUY WHO JUST BOUGHT ONE!!!!:stick: I THINK HE IS A  HEAD IF YOU ASK ME.... 4 GRAND FOR A MIXED DOG...HAVENT SEEN THE PUP YET BUT YOU TRY TO PASS ON THE INFO. THAT I LEARN HERE BUT WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO WHEN THEY DONT LISTEN.


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## joshc767 (Jan 23, 2007)

I just done see the reason to pay that much, but I guess if they find dumb ass'swilling to pay that much for the dogs, then more power to them.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

_now thats a pedigree,heheheheheheheh!!!_
http://muglestonspitbullfarm.com/females/chinamonster.html


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## Lisa3 (Aug 16, 2006)

yes, yes, out of standards and some of them horribly over fed ..yet they are great as working dogs in weight pulling frankly I don't see a reason why shouldn't I respect the breeders that believe in these lines.:woof: 
ciao


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

good at working,lol.possably the worlds heavyest paper weights,also great boat anchors...im not sure if that is work..


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

sorry bro,cant see it,but i imagine that the sire and daim were alot like amphibious bullfrogs,better get that dog back to the pond before it shrivels up and dies.....or change its name to jeramiah since we all know jeramiha "WAS" a bullfrog,he now apperently has morphed into a bulldog...
Hey,they aint apbts or working dogs so we dont have to be nice....


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## Spazzy (Feb 5, 2007)

Here ya go Cane,










Quite a nice breeding if I do say so myself.

-GSD (Whoops  )


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Spazzy said:


> Here ya go Cane,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hehe,
good one..


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

LMFAO.....Actually the one on the banner on the far left aint to bad..Kinda cool
actually JMO.....


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## Lisa3 (Aug 16, 2006)

they certainly haven't got the " fighting dog" conformation..but I have seen such a wide range of conformations in this breed dogs from 16 kg to 45 kg and all well accepted in all the differents blood lines..might be a creative way of interpreting the modern pit bull?


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## WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS (Feb 9, 2007)

*oversize dogs*

One of the answers to the original question is this. ANY Pitbull in a line that has been registered with the UKC for more than six straight generations becomes "PR". That is what that prefix means.

As far as dogs being champions, You'll see in the pedigrees that there are no RECENT champions. One or two dogs four or five generations back does not truly qualify the dog for being able to boast of a "Champion" bloodline. This also answers the show quality question. There are no recent generation champions because somewhere along the line someone forgot what the breed standards were set in place for. To maintain the integrity and working ability of the breed. There is no way a dog built like that could ever have the agility and stamina to do most of the things it was bred to do.

This is the main reason why they have come up with the new " Bully Breed". To register these dogs as something else entirely. But in their defense, isn't this how all breeds of dogs were once created? Someone producing something they like and calling it something else?

I am not against people breeding something new to appease their own tastes, and the tastes of those who'll pay big bucks for it. But I do think they should go ahead and start registering their dogs as, and calling them, "Bullies". Don't advertise them as "better" or "perfect" Pit Bulls. They only way anyone can claim to have a "better" Pit Bull is to stake that claim in the show ring.

I also believe I recently heard that UKC was going to start doing DNA tests on dogs from those "Monster" producing kennels to ensure that they are truly Pit Bulls that have been selectively bred for that stature, and have not had any outside Mastiff type blood added in to achieve it.

Hope this sheds some light!!
Sharon


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## Crown Royal (Oct 20, 2006)

WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS said:


> One of the answers to the original question is this. ANY Pitbull in a line that has been registered with the UKC for more than six straight generations becomes "PR". That is what that prefix means.
> 
> As far as dogs being champions, You'll see in the pedigrees that there are no RECENT champions. One or two dogs four or five generations back does not truly qualify the dog for being able to boast of a "Champion" bloodline. This also answers the show quality question. There are no recent generation champions because somewhere along the line someone forgot what the breed standards were set in place for. To maintain the integrity and working ability of the breed. There is no way a dog built like that could ever have the agility and stamina to do most of the things it was bred to do.
> 
> ...


Great post Sharon...everybody has their taste but should call it as it is. An APBT is not a Bully or an AmStaff. When a breeder/kennel claims that a 100 lb bullfrog is the "better or "perfect" example of the breed it makes me sick. To see a perfect example of the breed one must look at the ADBA champs of the past. I love my big blue Chaos pit, but I also like the catch weight pits that some don't. I wish people would just call it as it is. The "American Bully" is now becoming a new breed, as it should, and lets hope the APBT can live up to it's heritage.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

we have seen the health effects of breeding for extremes,just look at the bull mastiff the gsd,the neo,english bulldog and the list goes on,breeding for exagerated asthetics and mutations is horrable,plus the image of the apbt is now warped due to the bully fad,people think a true apbt is 16inches and with a 26 inch head,its a joke.....
also the true apbt is to be found in the working dog world,not the show ring,the show ring has destroyed alot of breeds,the apbt is a working dog.
Plus i do believe the bullforg type crosses are mostly bulldog,not mastiff,but obviously there are a few mastiff bullies out there,in general a mastiff apbt cross is a better working dog than a bulldog/apbt cross imho....


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## WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS (Feb 9, 2007)

I will agree on the health issues part. I forgot to metion that these " monster" breeders are most likely not doing any health testing. I would be very concerned about hearts, hips, and elbows with these dogs. If someone pays $4,000 for a dog, shouldn't it be sound? My dogs are OFA'd Champions,and my pups have lifetime garauntees for soundness and I can't even get that much for a pup!! How screwed up is that? But I guess the people that pay that much for that " look" have the money to buy another one in a few years when their dog dies of heart failure or has to be put down due to hip dysplasia. Still, it's sad.

I do have to disagree about the working vs show ring dogs though. The purpose of the show ring is to reward and recognise the dogs bred closest to the breed standard. Working ability is great, and many show dogs are working dogs too ( hence " Total Dog" awards at shows). But we cannot sacrifice type and soundness for working ability.

Correct conformation is all about soundess. Anyone with any experience with horses will recognize this and agree. A properly built dog, correct shoulder and hip angles, for example, will move better. And hence, be more athletic. Deviations in the limbs ( easty-westy fronts or cow hocks ) cause extra stress on joints and faster breakdown under stress. This is just scientific fact.

If you actually look at the top ten APBT's in the country ( I see several often because they are here on the East Coast ) they are not overblown, overdone couch potatoes like you may think. They are light on their feet, athletic dogs of true terrier type and most likely working ability. One of them actually wins "Total Dog" awards often.

We can, and should, breed for both working ability and structural correctness. Or else what's the point in having a breed standard. A show dog doesn't have to work to prove that it can, that is the owners choice, but a working dog should represent the breed standard. 

A motto to follow is "Breed to improve the breed". We have to strive for the perfect balance of both working ability and correct conformation. Seiger competitions in Germany are a perfect example. The dogs are judged on Conformation, working ability, temperament, and stamina. If only the U.S. Kennel Clubs would adopt Germany's stringent inspection processes for breeding. It would eliminate most of the unhealthy, poor temperamented, and ugly dogs being bred in this country today by people looking to "make a buck ".

Some of the best dogs I have ever owned were German imports. We should all follow their example.

I'll get off my soap box now:roll: 

Sharon


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

sharon,how about the adba and ukc requiring that a apbt must have a working title to become a confimation champion,now thats a idea:rofl: .
One thing is for sure,breeding striktly for confrimation is not what this breed is about and also is a great way to sacrifice health and temperment..


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS said:


> A motto to follow is "Breed to improve the breed". We have to strive for the perfect balance of both working ability and correct conformation. Sharon


I completely agree with this I would love to see more breeders follow this motto.


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## cherol (Jan 7, 2007)

cane76 said:


> we have seen the health effects of breeding for extremes,just look at the bull mastiff the gsd,the neo,english bulldog and the list goes on,breeding for exagerated asthetics and mutations is horrable,plus the image of the apbt is now warped due to the bully fad,people think a true apbt is 16inches and with a 26 inch head,its a joke.....
> also the true apbt is to be found in the working dog world,not the show ring,the show ring has destroyed alot of breeds,the apbt is a working dog.
> Plus i do believe the bullforg type crosses are mostly bulldog,not mastiff,but obviously there are a few mastiff bullies out there,in general a mastiff apbt cross is a better working dog than a bulldog/apbt cross imho....


EXACTLY! That was my point to begin with. Everyone these days thinks pits are supposed to 100 lbs with HUGE heads ........ such a misconception......


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## WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS (Feb 9, 2007)

Cane,

This is why *I* mentioned health testing earlier. Health testing is a very important part of future bloodstock selection. Like I said, all of my dogs, and those of my friends who breed, are OFA certified hips and heart at the very least. And alot are thyroid, patella, and elbows as well. Show breeders do alot more OFA testing than anyone else. Evidence of this is right on the OFA website. Look at the kennel names.

Also, show breeders rarely, if ever, breed dogs with bad temperaments. An aggressive dog cannot become a show champion. If your dog bites a judge the penalties are severe. Dogs with poor temperaments are supposed to be culled, according to the breeders code of ethics.

The concerns you have are mostly applying to the back yard "Bargain Trader Magazine" ( this a publication here in North Carolina filled with 100's of adds for dogs every week) type breeders who will stick any 2 dogs together, purebred or not, papers or not, just to sell some pups. This is what has been the downfall of several breeds.

As far as obtaining working titles to become show champions, I'm all for making dogs prove they can work. After all, wasn't it me that said that I wish we could institute a breeding selection process like the Germans?? Dogs should have to prove that they can do what they were bred for. Not all of them can be the best at it of course, but they should prove that they have the ability to be profficient. But that selection process must also include conformation and type. To insure the integrity and soundness  of the breed.

I think we are on the same page. We just haven't connected completely.

Sharon


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## WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS (Feb 9, 2007)

*another response*

Cherol,

I also agree with you. Though he may look bigger in the photo. The male in my avatar only weighs 70 lbs. Most of my bitches weigh 35-50 lbs. I have had a 90lb male win in the ring but he was balanced and athletic, not short and wide. The UKC standard states that, while there is no height or weight limit, the overall balance of the dog must be maintained. These dogs are supposed to be agile enough to avoid a charge by a bull or a boar. This is what they were bred for.

The really knowledgeable UKC judges do not put up the big, overdone, dogs in the ring. And AKC actually has height and weight limits in it's standard.

The best we can do as breeders is make sure that we follow the standards and breed to improve the breed. We can't stop other's from doing what they want, but we can make sure we don't make the same mistakes.

Sharon


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

well my issue is with the breeders of alot of show dogs[not you].
Some dog breeds have been completly destroyed by breeding only for confimation,and these are dogs that were at one time extreme working dogs,thats all.
Work your apbt then show them,but i dont agree with only showing them,then they are no more than am staffs,which are great dogs also,but they are show dogs first,apbt is a working breed.....


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## WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS (Feb 9, 2007)

Touche!!! LOLOLOL!!!!

Your'e right. The Amstaff has been bred for the show ring for the past 60 years. I won't deny that one. Maybe it's time to shake things up a bit. 

Several of my dogs have had their lines registered with the UKC long enough to become "PR". I've got one young male here who has too much white to compete in the AKC but he was so outstanding that I kept him anyway ( he's in the gallery I finally figured out how to do, his name is Trouble ). He finished his UKC Championship in one weekend, taking three Best Of Winner's in a row and almost the breed once. This is tough to do in this area, competition is heavy, 30-50 Pit Bulls at every show. Several of the top ten dogs in the country are from this area.

I plan on taking him back out when he finishes growing up to win his Grand Championship and then keep showing him towards a National Ranking. I never really thought I had time for anything else but what the hay, maybe it's time to take the Amstaff back to it's roots. Let's give him a job to do. Any suggestions??? Which title(s) do you think he should go for? I'm not being sarcastic, I really would love the challenge.

I'll be waiting for your answer!

Sharon


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS said:


> Touche!!! LOLOLOL!!!!
> 
> Your'e right. The Amstaff has been bred for the show ring for the past 60 years. I won't deny that one. Maybe it's time to shake things up a bit.
> 
> ...


go for a sch title,ive seen the dog in your gallery,he looks good,built like a brick house,does he have the proper temperment,nerve and drive for work?good working dogs are usually found from working lines and proven working parents..


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## WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS (Feb 9, 2007)

Actually, out of any dog I have here, he is the one with the most drive.He's been indomitable since he was a pup. Absolutely scared of nothing! That's why we named him Trouble! LOL! 

Even at 6 wks, nothing you could do to him would stop him coming right back for that hold on your pantleg!! He's the only one my cat is afraid of because getting whacked never phased him. My cat trains all the young pups to respect him while they are small. Not him!!

I used to be into Schutzhund some when I had Shepherds. I'll give my old friends a ring and see if anyone is holding any sessions. This should be interesting.

Sharon


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

good luck!!!


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## WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS (Feb 9, 2007)

I was wondering one thing though. Why Shutzhund? The only problem I can forsee is the catch drive taking over and the dog not "outting" on command. These dogs weren't bred like the working dog to be totally human focussed. Especially when zoned in on their prey. Hence, the invention of breaking sticks, because they just don't let go if you tell them to! Do you think this is an issue with this breed when being considered for this kind of work? They are, after all, Terriers at heart.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

WONDERLANDAMSTAFFS said:


> I was wondering one thing though. Why Shutzhund? The only problem I can forsee is the catch drive taking over and the dog not "outting" on command. These dogs weren't bred like the working dog to be totally human focussed. Especially when zoned in on their prey. Hence, the invention of breaking sticks, because they just don't let go if you tell them to! Do you think this is an issue with this breed when being considered for this kind of work? They are, after all, Terriers at heart.


i say sch because it is a test of intelligence,agility,protection and athletism as well as obediance,and i figure since your a show gal you may be turned off by pp or weight pull and shc is much more official in some peoples eyes...
thomas kohlhoefer of germany has had good results with am staffs in sch,lerri hanson and chris friaze have had good results with apbts and staffs just to name a few..
i believe search and rescue and therapy are cool jobs for dogs also,but are more of the labrador type work,get the dog titled in real work,then focus on the therapy/search and rescue type jobs,jmo....
again that may be hard to do since am staffs have not been bred for worjk for over 50 yrs,possably you'd have to aquirre some imported stock or dogs from kennels who are working and testing there dogs in these avenues..


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## tazmaniak24_6 (Jan 30, 2007)

well..... this thread made an interesting turn somewhere bak there....lolol


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

yes,so to get back on track,there promoting of the breed is negitive,there dogs are crosses,the kennel owners are liars...
all those negitives cant make a positive,call them something else,be honest and all will be well....:cheers:


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

ok to get back off track........... ive decided to do sch work, my trainer compets nationally, only problem is i just found out shes not really fond of APBT but wont admit it. I've talked o her about doing sch work before and she has pretty much pussy footted around about it. my boss took her 15 month old lab in and the verry first day the trainer wants to do sch!! im not sure why since my dog is 5 months younger and is listins WAY more. So it looks like im gonna have to find another way to go about it.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

a lab in sch,it wont happen,lol...


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

lol not sch, some kind of obedience title thing, ill have to ask her about it again


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

wheezie,heres how a lab does sch,roflmao!


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

LMFAO!!!! thats the best thing ive seen all day


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## RONNIE (Apr 24, 2007)

Any Blue Pits Arent Pure Bread


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## RescuePits (Mar 4, 2007)

RONNIE said:


> Any Blue Pits Arent Pure Bread


Bread?? :rofl:


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Wow.... I really do not know why this keeps being brought up??? :stick:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

pure bread,hehe,yeah blue bread probably has mold on it...


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## brogers (May 5, 2007)

They claim that they just use the NuVet products to get their dogs that big . I think they pump some kind of steroids in them


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## sw_df27 (Feb 16, 2007)

wow you guys had a very interesting conversation!!!!!!!!


> Any Blue Pits Arent Pure Bread


dude I think that subject just be punishable by banning! we have had that conversation over and over and over again dude.........


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## TheBullBeastLover (Jul 18, 2007)

WOW Pitbulls on steroids i have a mixed breed as well but i mean these pitbulls are just uncalled for. this is one of the reasons our dogs have a bad name because there as big as hulk -.- id be scared of them too


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

TheBullBeastLover said:


> WOW Pitbulls on steroids i have a mixed breed as well but i mean these pitbulls are just uncalled for. this is one of the reasons our dogs have a bad name because there as big as hulk -.- id be scared of them too


i got no beef with bullys, there not my style and even if they were i dont have deep enough pockets to get any. the only problem i have is that people try to pass them off as APBT, now that pisses me off.


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