# merle dogs



## dixie

this should start a fire huh?what are ideas and thoughts on merle coloring.educated ideas would also be appreciated


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## American_Pit13

These are some old discussions but good info from both sides
http://www.gopitbull.com/general-di...e-but-i-have-question-merle-colored-dogs.html

http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/11766-merle.html

http://www.gopitbull.com/keith-cane76-campos/1637-interesting-artical-merle-apbts.html

These are for reading. They are very old so PLEASE no one go start posting in those threads.

If we can keep it civil discussion you can continue a debate here and quote info from those threads.

Merle is a fun debate so please play nice all.


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## Black Label Romo

i think merle dogs are absolutely beautiful...i chose not to debate the issue so i will leave it at that...i would love to own one as a pet!!!


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## intensive

nothing wrong with owning a merle dog, just not breeding worthy. but while were at it, why is ticking aloud?


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN

intensive said:


> nothing wrong with owning a merle dog, just not breeding worthy. but while were at it, why is ticking aloud?


good question.


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## Firehazard

This is language I understand 

http://www.gopitbull.com/keith-cane76-campos/1637-interesting-artical-merle-apbts.html

These are for reading. They are very old so PLEASE no one go start posting in those threads.

If we can keep it civil discussion you can continue a debate here and quote info from those threads.

Merle is a fun debate so please play nice all.[/QUOTE]

:goodpost: Says it all :goodpost:


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## American_Pit13

intensive said:


> nothing wrong with owning a merle dog, just not breeding worthy. but while were at it, why is ticking aloud?


Because ticking is a completely different genetic Pattern. They are in no way related....


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## scriving

the father of my dog was a merle


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## bahamutt99

I think merle is beautiful as well, but I would never breed a merle dog or one with merle in the pedigree. I haven't heard a convincing enough argument that they are pure. I believe the scientific argument that they are not.


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## scriving

do any of you guys have pictures of the ticked pattern?


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## American_Pit13

Ticked








Daisy here has ticking on her face









This is Merle for those that don't know


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## scriving

man i love the merles look just should be classified as something else not a apbt


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## Black Label Romo

I like both ticking and merle patterns...that merle with the cropped ears looks amazing...


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## dixie

well i was told mertle bred to merle could be deadly white.maybe blin of deaf or both>just what i heard thats why i posted thsi to get feed back
but i would never breed a merle,too much drama surroundng and not enuff facts,IMO


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## SteelRidgeKennels

Phantom is ticked (on the skin)

I believe Merles should be spayed/neutered. I would not own one because they can have health issues (just like Aussies and such with hearing and seeing). JMPO


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## Aireal

american_pit13 said:


> Ticked
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> Daisy here has ticking on her face
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> This is Merle for those that don't know


wow that last one is beatiful, i wouldn't mind having that as one of my pets


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## EckoMac

The coloring is beautiful. I don't breed or show, just love, so color means nothing.


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## Aireal

i agree i wouldn't breed so i wouldn't have a problem owning one

they still kinda look like pit/catahula mixes though not that i mind a good mutt lol that;s pretty much my entire pack


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## jayandlacy

I think the coloring is nice, because it is so different from the norm as far as bullys/pits go, but, I would never breed them, its too risky as far as health issues go. I would also never breed my blue boy, due to allergies, I don't want that passed on to anyone.


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## Elvisfink

I'm not a fan of Merle color pit bull style dogs. If I were interested in owning a Merle color dog I'd own a Catahoula not a Catahoula mixed breed dog. I'm with Lindsey on this one. I've never heard a convincing argument that Merle can happen naturally in a pure breed APBT. JMO.


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## Sadie

I don't care for the merle pattern/color I am against breeding merle dogs they are banned from both the UKC and ADBA. Health problems, questionable as to even how it ever showed up in the APBT without some shady cross breeding going on . So I would have to pass.


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## ibeffudled

i have a merle colored dog, and he was the only one of his litter witht he look and a bobbed tail no idea why but he's been vet checked and clean bill of health i know he's a mix though the guy i got him from swears up and down he's purebred i have seen the mom and shes 100% american staffy. great dog but definitely would never have thought of breeding him he's been fixed since he was 8 months old (i got him at allegedly 3 months but he was much smaller than a 3 month old him should have been) and i dont trust what the breeder would say anyway, one lady asked me if i would breed him but i told her nope he's fixed and has aggression issues almost like an aussie shepherd which i think he's mixed with almost a bipolar personality is the best way to describe it, never bit anyone i like or trust but he will bark and growl at certain people then turn around the next time he sees them and love on them. 

the coloring is beautiful to me but not for breeding just a pet. and hes black and white perfect for watching raider games


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## American_Pit13

Aireal said:


> i agree i wouldn't breed so i wouldn't have a problem owning one
> 
> they still kinda look like pit/catahula mixes though not that i mind a good mutt lol that;s pretty much my entire pack


I would love to own one. I have always loved the color ( marking) and to have it a pitbull body looks awesome. Like everyone said tho not to breed but a cute show piece  I have Slim for the same reason. Shes non breeding, but I liked the color so shes just a pretty pet I enjoy to look at.

I am also a very color drawn person. I would not choose color over temperment or structure for breeding purpose but there is not harm in having a dog of a color you like.

I intent to find a well bred Tri and a Blue Brindle over the next couple years.

I also need a rednose  I then will have my rainbow complete


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## Aireal

american_pit13 said:


> I would love to own one. I have always loved the color ( marking) and to have it a pitbull body looks awesome. Like everyone said tho not to breed but a cute show piece  I have Slim for the same reason. Shes non breeding, but I liked the color so shes just a pretty pet I enjoy to look at.
> 
> I am also a very color drawn person. I would not choose color over temperment or structure for breeding purpose but there is not harm in having a dog of a color you like.
> 
> I intent to find a well bred Tri and a Blue Brindle over the next couple years.
> 
> I also need a rednose  I then will have my rainbow complete


I agree completely, I def want my next to be a blue temperament is what matters most to me since the work I will do with my dogs doesn't require them to be unaltered so they get fixed at appropriate timing

So if I could get a merle without temperament issues (like alot of pure bred Catahoula have toward strangers just as APBT should NOT have) then I would love one!


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## Pitbullgyrl

*Merle Question*

Lots of people on here say merle is not purebred...how do you explain Polka Dot then? She is an ADBA titled dog and she IS merle.


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## ThaLadyPit

Pitbullgyrl said:


> Lots of people on here say merle is not purebred...how do you explain Polka Dot then? She is an ADBA titled dog and she IS merle.


Can you post pix of her and of her titles for us to see? I don't understand how she's merle and is ADBA titled if the merle pattern is banned from UKC and ADBA. I'm very interested to see her and her accomplishments. Thanks.


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## Lex's Guardian

What kind of health issues do Merle dogs have?


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## raiderhater1785

I love me some merle! I like it in Aussies too. my question is how many generations would the interbreeding be? How long would a gene carry over? I wouldn't personally want a dog with a catahoula demeanor. I understand the reasonong in merle being a disqualifier, im just curious. Merle dogs are always going to be from byb's, and i don't think that half of the guys slinging these "rare merle" pitties at flea markets and such even know what a catahoula is. JUst wondering about dog disposition...


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## aimee235

The gene will pass on forever unless it's selected against. It's dominant a dog only needs one copy of the gene for it to be merle. Selecting non merle pups from merle parent and the gene would be gone from the gene pool that generation.


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## raiderhater1785

Right! But how many generations are needed to adopt, maintain, or eradicate a dispositional trait?


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## aimee235

I think that could take an extremely long time depending on how many genes are involved and how well breeding selections are made. 8+ generations would be my guess.


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## raiderhater1785

8 to breed in or to breed out? If it was 8 to introduce the trait genetically you could say with some confidence that a second generation dog would hold true to what exactly? Is HA dominant?


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

would the spots on my dogs be considered merleing
you can see two on his legs and he has alot on his stomach


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## Black Label Romo

Alitlebit_ofJACK said:


> would the spots on my dogs be considered merleing
> you can see two on his legs and he has alot on his stomach


No...can't tell too good from the picture looks like ticking...completely different...


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## Alitlebit_ofJACK

Ya bad picture when I get home i'll put better ones on what exactly is ticking I couldnt find picture when I looked that up.


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## Aireal

American_Pit13 said:


> Ticked
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> Daisy here has ticking on her face
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> This is Merle for those that don't know


examples above


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## aimee235

raiderhater1785 said:


> 8 to breed in or to breed out? If it was 8 to introduce the trait genetically you could say with some confidence that a second generation dog would hold true to what exactly? Is HA dominant?


Both. The second generation could be a combination of any traits.
I don't know if they have done any studies to see if HA or any personality trait is dominant or recessive.


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## Black Label Romo

Is the dog 'Daisy' posted above a members dog?? I love it!!!

And littlebitofjack heres a link with a lil info on ticking...
Dog Coat Colour Genetics
hope this helps


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## NewBully

Aireal said:


> So if I could get a merle without temperament issues (like alot of pure bred Catahoula have toward strangers just as APBT should NOT have) then I would love one!


 I have a purebred catahula and he goes up to everyone with a wagging tail and tongue in the go position to lick you clean. Not sayint that others in the breed are not aggressive I have the best of both worlds with my apbt and catahoula.:woof:


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## Aireal

NewBully said:


> I have a purebred catahula and he goes up to everyone with a wagging tail and tongue in the go position to lick you clean. Not sayint that others in the breed are not aggressive I have the best of both worlds with my apbt and catahoula.:woof:


LUCKY!!! I love me some Cataula's but everyone I meet is stand offish and has the tendencies to HA, so I researched them a bit more and they say that is a trait of the breed. I know there are exceptions to every rule but to me it not the smartest to go into "getting" a specific breed if you don't like known traits of the breed. Kinda like someone that can't stand DA going and buying a APBT, it's like ok yes there is a chance your dog may never develop DA but to ask it of the dog when its in there nature is you simply being naive. Do you know what I mean?

Side note, send me some pics of your cat, don't wanna clutter this thread but would love to see your baby


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## angelbaby

Putting this here cause there is alot of good info already in here about this color that new people could benefit from. There is a kennel with american bullys adevertising the ABKC's 1st merle litter ... After finally getting through to someone from the ABKC asking about if this is true or not and if this color is accepted even , the answer is NO, not accepted at all. This breeder is false advertising OR registering them under a different color. Thought any of the new members joining or new to the breed could benefit from reading this so they arent con'd into something they think is alright. 
http://blueswaggerline.yolasite.com/picture-gallery.php


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## KMdogs

I've said it before but merle is not a color for these dogs, the genes that create the merle pattern would have been in this breed virtually from day one or evident in the bull baiter history prior to the direction of the [].. The color just randomly showed up more profound around the 60s and 70s and from that point on theres been the debate.. Majority of those that defend merle and the APBT are breeders "specializing" in breeding merle mutts making the claim that some of the game dogs in the early 1900's were in fact merle... Which hold virtually no water.

Even if this was evident throughout the history theres a reason it never took on, its not a color for a bulldog... It is kind of the same as the color blue in the aspect of debating where that color came from however for the most part theres more evidence and more supporting finds for "blue" coat vs merle and in the end majority of old timers found the "blue" color not to be that of a bulldog..

I wouldn't feed a merle dog, not no way.

Most that are on the other side of this debate believe that "cryptic merle APBTs" is the unknown answer (for those that do not know a "cryptic merle"...put simply this would mean you can have a merle "carrier" without showing the merle coat) however its major flaw (and why this doesn't work in argument) is once these cryptic merles are bred to a non-merle (or "carrier") the merle becomes evident in the new litter of pups.. So in essence the argument is saying all those bulldogs were cryptics until "oh wow!" by some unknown one was bred to a non merle..

Anyone breeding merle APBT's (or Am bullies, bull and terrier) is not breeding true to the dogs and generally slaps a nice "RARE" label on them because "rare" sells.

The saying, "theres a sucker born every minute" comes to mind... Common sense goes a long way, do your research before attempting to get a pup and you won't fall in the trap these BYB's and peddlers have.

The merle "fad" seemingly died out for few years recently but i've noticed more people advertising again so it might be on yet another incline.. It comes and gos... If its not "merle" its "blue", if its not either its something else that some moron got "lucky" to have on their yard so all of a sudden they are producing nothing but that "luck"... Please...


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## angelbaby

KMdogs said:


> I've said it before but merle is not a color for these dogs, the genes that create the merle pattern would have been in this breed virtually from day one or evident in the bull baiter history prior to the direction of the [].. The color just randomly showed up more profound around the 60s and 70s and from that point on theres been the debate.. Majority of those that defend merle and the APBT are breeders "specializing" in breeding merle mutts making the claim that some of the game dogs in the early 1900's were in fact merle... Which hold virtually no water.
> 
> Even if this was evident throughout the history theres a reason it never took on, its not a color for a bulldog... It is kind of the same as the color blue in the aspect of debating where that color came from however for the most part theres more evidence and more supporting finds for "blue" coat vs merle and in the end majority of old timers found the "blue" color not to be that of a bulldog..
> 
> I wouldn't feed a merle dog, not no way.
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> :Most that are on the other side of this debate believe that "cryptic merle APBTs" is the unknown answer (for those that do not know a "cryptic merle"...put simply this would mean you can have a merle "carrier" without showing the merle coat) however its major flaw (and why this doesn't work in argument) is once these cryptic merles are bred to a non-merle (or "carrier") the merle becomes evident in the new litter of pups.. So in essence the argument is saying all those bulldogs were cryptics until "oh wow!" by some unknown one was bred to a non merle..
> 
> Anyone breeding merle APBT's (or Am bullies, bull and terrier) is not breeding true to the dogs and generally slaps a nice "RARE" label on them because "rare" sells.
> 
> The saying, "theres a sucker born every minute" comes to mind... Common sense goes a long way, do your research before attempting to get a pup and you won't fall in the trap these BYB's and peddlers have.
> 
> The merle "fad" seemingly died out for few years recently but i've noticed more people advertising again so it might be on yet another incline.. It comes and gos... If its not "merle" its "blue", if its not either its something else that some moron got "lucky" to have on their yard so all of a sudden they are producing nothing but that "luck"... Please...


goodpost:
great post, this guy is telling all these storys about how this color goes way back to the beginning of the breed and how its an old school color and blah blahfilling peoples heads with garbage. I was really doubting the Abkc's morals allowing this to be registered but after talking with someone seems this guy is just dishonest all the way around cause the ABKC does not recognize it. Idont mind the merlse coloring just not in this breed .


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## fishinrob

Being a long time snake breeder, I will say this. We wait for the first wild caught mutation(albino,hypo which is a dilute of black). When the first Albino Burmese python hit in the late 80's, my buddy bought it for 25,000.00 and made a killing on them!!! Now they are a dime a dozen.These mutants do pop up eventually without a parent that carry's the recessive gene. Everything starts somewhere. We see human albinos, although very rarely. The point is these colors all can happen with every breed naturally at one time or another. I'm not familiar with the defect of the merle pattern, but it's probably close to when a piebald deer pops up.
I believe most merle's have been crossed, but don't believe that it can NEVER naturally happen. Most mutations have other defects with skin, hearing and eyesight so you can see why they would have always been culled from the game dogs and most other dog breeds.


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## pwgriffin

KMdogs said:


> I wouldn't feed a merle dog, not no way.
> 
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i really hope you meant to say breed....

i have two pits from bybs, my first is a blue nose merle (like a spotted brindle), and i have what looks like a chocolate coat red nose (he's like 6 weeks, so im not sure if his coat might take a subtle red tone like his mom's.)

i got my merle from a friend at a great price and i didnt know what a merle was tbh. I honestly feel lucky, shes not loud, amazing temperament and no health issues so far. i only thought about breeding her because i get approached so often with offers because of how pretty they think she is.


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## Firehazard

Here's a post on merel dogs, that needs to be posted here too.. 

The APBT does infact come in any color and or pattern except merle.. everyone is shooting you straight, and English Staff does not allow solid white dogs and AKC AMSTAFF does not allow dogs with red noses;theAmStaff dogs have to have the dark skin around the eye. The American Bulldogs are primarily all white however they are coming in black and primarily brindle these days and merle from a Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog cross over back in the early foundation. 

APBTs with merle with always kick back some catahoula trait out of the blue and taint the whole bloodline or strain. If someone is breeding merle dogs hopefully they are at least good catch dogs which require no set conformation the dog just has to be able to work. JMO they should round up all merle APBTs and put them with the Catahoula Bulldogs and leave it at that; would be nothing but compliments sense so many game lines have crossed into the merle dogs to promote sales. In all practicality thats what merle APBTs are really "Catahoula Bulldogs"


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## Firehazard

Harlequin is merle by another name, sounds prettier :-]


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## angelbaby

pwgriffin said:


> i really hope you meant to say breed....
> 
> i have two pits from bybs, my first is a blue nose merle (like a spotted brindle), and i have what looks like a chocolate coat red nose (he's like 6 weeks, so im not sure if his coat might take a subtle red tone like his mom's.)
> 
> i got my merle from a friend at a great price and i didnt know what a merle was tbh. I honestly feel lucky, shes not loud, amazing temperament and no health issues so far. i only thought about breeding her because i get approached so often with offers because of how pretty they think she is.


I would think against breeding her, there are lots of "pretty " dogs out there not really a good reason to breed them. There are lots of info here and i believe there is another merle thread or "color" thread that talks about it and some of the health issues the merle dogs carry , although yours has been healthy so far who is to say it wont pass down to the offspring and cause issues later on for them.


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## KMdogs

pwgriffin said:


> i really hope you meant to say breed....
> 
> i have two pits from bybs, my first is a blue nose merle (like a spotted brindle), and i have what looks like a chocolate coat red nose (he's like 6 weeks, so im not sure if his coat might take a subtle red tone like his mom's.)
> 
> i got my merle from a friend at a great price and i didnt know what a merle was tbh. I honestly feel lucky, shes not loud, amazing temperament and no health issues so far. i only thought about breeding her because i get approached so often with offers because of how pretty they think she is.


Nope, i meant merle and bulldogs.. Wont touch them. Any breed for that matter where the pattern merle is known to be mixed relatively recent compared to that said breeds existence..

Too many problems are linked to the gene, i know some great hunters that are CLD -APBT crosses AKA Catahoula Bulldog but i've seen more problematic merle dogs than successful. Too risky for some hounds that offer nothing more than other hounds out there. I'll stick to my Bandogs or Bulldogs.

Also seen some HIGHLY unpredictable American Bulldog - CLD crosses, unpredictable meaning both mentality and working ability. Just not worth it.


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## Old_Blood

Firehazard said:


> Harlequin is merle by another name, sounds prettier :-]


Harlequin and merle are not the same. Different genes. Harlequin is exclusive to the Great Dane and not seen in other breeds. Ideally you want a heterzygous pairing of either gene. Many merles don't have health problems, but double merles are much more likely too. They will be blind, deaf and in same cases actually die after birth. A double harlequin is prenatal lethal. Two harlequins shouldn't be bred together and I feel very strongly about two merles. It's risky and unfair to the defective pups, its so preventable.

I also asked about roan in the other thread. Anyone is welcome to chime in with their opinion.


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## Old_Blood

My opinion on merle is they are mixed. 

Not all merles have health issues, but its possible, really certain with double merles.

It is very easy to prove the purity of merle pits if it were so due to breed DNA testing now available. It's that simple. 

Merle is dominant and doesn't continually, randomly pop up. You be able to solidly trace back for most generations. 

Naturally occuring mutation is possible, but it doesn't happen in q number of dogs, it'd be isolated. Not different breeders around the same time periods. 

Cryptic merles would still show in some breedibfs and even cryptics for those who haven't seen them have a merle spot here or there, even a couple. It's an indication that they're merle, the rest of their coat appears solid. 

People add in other breeds at times, it happens. Some mixes can look pure. Ice seen bandogs that looked like large APBT. 

As far as papers and title that's not proof of purity. People hang papers. 

I could cross breed my dog, register the litter, breed a cross back to APBT and put a Gr Ch conformation title on a pup that's 25% something else.


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## Firehazard

Old_Blood said:


> Harlequin and merle are not the same. Different genes. Harlequin is exclusive to the Great Dane and not seen in other breeds. Ideally you want a heterzygous pairing of either gene. Many merles don't have health problems, but double merles are much more likely too. They will be blind, deaf and in same cases actually die after birth. A double harlequin is prenatal lethal. Two harlequins shouldn't be bred together and I feel very strongly about two merles. It's risky and unfair to the defective pups, its so preventable.
> 
> I also asked about roan in the other thread. Anyone is welcome to chime in with their opinion.


NOT REALLY~

































Great Dane

























Merle "APBTs" ~ *catahoula bulldogs*

Merle is the same stuff by another name; its carried on the locus the same way and merle does not trump harelquin as they are the same merle pups are spit out of harelquin litters very often. I've seen to many similarities so we'll have to agree to disagree there. Brindle trumps black and tan or Black,white, and tan, which trumps brindle .. meaning the dogs gonna carry one or the other.. With the danes and this issue they are both on the same locus.  I dont care what politics says.


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## KMdogs

Firehazard said:


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> Merle is the same stuff by another name; its carried on the locus the same way and merle does not trump harelquin as they are the same merle pups are spit out of harelquin litters very often. I've seen to many similarities so we'll have to agree to disagree there. Brindle trumps black and tan or Black,white, and tan, which trumps brindle .. meaning the dogs gonna carry one or the other.. With the danes and this issue they are both on the same locus.  I dont care what politics says.


:goodpost: They also share the same problems/faults, i have to go with FH on this one. Differences are minor, similarities are virtually identical across the board. It makes no sense to separate the two, genetically speaking and physical "end result" speaking.


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## Old_Blood

Firehazard said:


> Merle is the same stuff by another name; its carried on the locus the same way and merle does not trump harelquin as they are the same merle pups are spit out of harelquin litters very often. I've seen to many similarities so we'll have to agree to disagree there. Brindle trumps black and tan or Black,white, and tan, which trumps brindle .. meaning the dogs gonna carry one or the other.. With the danes and this issue they are both on the same locus.  I dont care what politics says.


Wow seriously. Yes really. We are over a decade into the new millennium and have advances in science which prove the harlequin gene exist. You disagree with a proven scientific fact? Merle and harlequin have been found separately.

M locus merle
H locus harlequin

It is separate from merle and existing gene also proving the cause of the color is not by extreme white.

This is what a TRUE harlequin looks like. 









You don't appear to know what harlequin even is. Harlequin is a pattern, mostly white dog with black torn jagged patches. Harlequin causes high whiting. Merle isn't allowed in the ring, its a DQ (with the exception of a small gray patch on a harl being permissible, though undesirable), merlequin are also a DQ which are basically harlequin patterned dogs who have gray around the black - imagine a patch within a patch, black outlined with gray

Of course Harls produce Merles. Lol. Harlequin causes the diluted gray pigment of merle to "disappear", be masked by white. You will get merles, not every pup will get a harlequin gene.

As far the mutts posted none of them appear to be even close harlequin, not even excessive whiting present of a double merle, let alone a harl patter.

The Danes, 3rd one down clearly brindle to my eyes. Last for sure simply merle, really the first are too.

What you said is like saying a lilac is just a chocolate, they are the samething with just a fancy name.

At the risk of sounding ignorant after stating my above info could you please elaborate on the colors you mentioned. I know the basic color genes but I'm missing what you are saying about them if that makes sense.


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## Old_Blood

KMdogs said:


> :goodpost: They also share the same problems/faults, i have to go with FH on this one. Differences are minor, similarities are virtually identical across the board. It makes no sense to separate the two, genetically speaking and physical "end result" speaking.


The difference is clear. I think the disagreement is actually due to confusion of what a harl is. A merle great Dane is the same as a merle "pit" genetically and of course looks pretty much the same just as brindle danes and brindle pits do. Above danes were merles so yeah.

Harlequin


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## KMdogs

Disagree completely..but since you mention genetics..

A series: A^s=black pigment and a^y=fawn pigment.
H series: H=harlequin, h=non-harl. (HH prone to death of majority of pups, high risk of defects)
M series: M=merle and m=non-merle. (MM prone to death of majority of pups, high risk of defects)
S series: S=solid pattern and s^i=mantle pattern. 
T series: T=dominant ticking, t=non-ticking.
Tw series: Tw=normal harl/merle pattern, tw=merliquin pattern.

Basic...HARLEQUIN: A^sA^s Hh Mm
MERLE: A^sA^s hh Mm
WHITE: A^sA^s Hh MM (harl-factored) or A^sA^s hh MM ("whites" can be up to 10% pigmented)
BLACK(MANTLE): A^sA^s HH mm (lethal) or A^sA^s Hh (harl-factored) or MmA^sA^s hh mm

One slight mutation and genes go from Harlequin to Merle, it has been seen countless times and vise versa. If needed we can go over all genetic disabilities, deformities, defects, etc associated with both.. which is almost identical.


----------



## Firehazard

I've seen a world full of harelquins and those I posted are REAL harlequins .. the politics of the issue is the issue, and thats that. All those NOT REAL harelquins is what produce the REAL harelquin.. clown dog.. the first harlequins were NOT black and white; thats what happens when you breed for looks first  I've been around what would be working danes, a fella in oklahoma out near nowata was collecting every bandog and bulldog he could find of working quality. Danes fell out quick unless crossed with game dog or Dogo, the dane whopper cross was a pretty good one too, tested on hogs. I know what your saying, but the proof is in the pudding. They exist on the locus as different "color" merle by any other name. Black and tan and brindle isnt different variant of each other they trump one another. NOT the case here Harlequin and Merle. Some call the merles harelquins and some of these people been doin a while call the harlequins merle.. cause they are the same, different color. REAL merle.. cause the first Harlequin looked like that brindled mess up top. Solid black coat trumps the merle as does the solid white coat, the dog cant have both, however harlequin is a "color" of merle, because you have danes labeled harlequin and merle in some kennels. They have a fawn harlequin which is condsidered merle in the bulldog world and bandog world, but in the world of fancy pants .. we can't have our hard work to isolate a black and white merle coat to be confused with the rest so its harlequin. LOL any of those colors on a bulldog or bandog(working mastiff) its going to be merle. So if REAL harlequin is black and white; then whats up with fawn and brindled merle oh sorry harlequins?

Heres a pedigree of a harlequin dane that I say is the same as merle and you say NO.Littlehorse Great Danes:Kiss's Pedigree








these older danes were not black and white.

imported pups:








this pup is the "last harlequin" female.. but look at that under shading.. sorry this pup si merle.. 








this guy on the top center of the same litter is called a merle piebold.. 
LOL because BOTH of those in the bulldog world are merle. 
Notice the colors next to the names? Harlequin .. Merle.. Black and white.. They are of each other the difference is not like brindle vs black and tan. Because they intertwine and thus the term "merle" Yes a certain pattern to breeding throws a harlequin but mind you those are in a world of different colors, brindled included.. thats why it makes it merle. 









I dont play all these politics games, brindlequin, fawnquin, merle, and harlequin as anything different than a different color of each other .. Merle. Because Merle in the GD seems to be a particular pattern only of color. As beggin the question in the bulldog world all of that is merle all in which us in the working dog world know as defective. 









its like how people have champange dogs and to someone else its just a fawn buckskin or a chocolate fawn... politics and money backing the name of a "coined" color or whatever. I know where your coming from however the fact remains any bulldog or bandog looks like that and its going to be called merle. Just because in Danes thats not condsidered merle; LOL .. Like people calling the blue labs Silver, so all blue dogs should really be grey and very few should really be labled blue? Cause Grey dogs are more acceptable than Blue. Backed by money, it'll happen. again: beggin the question .. even though you have merle and harlequin sepearated as colors on the locus they are the same, deadly to breed for. Again just because they refer to merle as diferent, its just not. Solid trumps merle/harlequin, which those two blend.. and have prooved to carry if not be unhealthy dogs with short lived lives or long lived dissabled. To get a solid REAL harlequin as you put it, Dang if thats not some inbreeding for the wrong merits. Looks.. Gotta go work first, and what ever comes up as longevity and good workers lasts to produce more good ones. DONE any other way is asking for a world of genetic and health mishaps. Why catahoula leopard dogs aka curs and catahoula bulldogs aka curs are some of the only working stock dogs with that make up, they breed em for work first, well they did and most good ol boys still do. Workers first, and they STILL throw a lot of blind or deaf dogs and dogs with heart murmurs and pancrius problems. What a mess it is to breed for looks only.

Politics~


----------



## KMdogs

^ Cant give you rep bud but great post.. Different sequence of virtually the same sequence..Ironic? Its all the same. It is easy to see, unless you refuse to open your eyes.


----------



## Firehazard

KMdogs said:


> Disagree completely..but since you mention genetics..
> 
> A series: A^s=black pigment and a^y=fawn pigment.
> H series: H=harlequin, h=non-harl. (HH prone to death of majority of pups, high risk of defects)
> M series: M=merle and m=non-merle. (MM prone to death of majority of pups, high risk of defects)
> S series: S=solid pattern and s^i=mantle pattern.
> T series: T=dominant ticking, t=non-ticking.
> Tw series: Tw=normal harl/merle pattern, tw=merliquin pattern.
> 
> Basic...HARLEQUIN: A^sA^s Hh Mm
> MERLE: A^sA^s hh Mm
> WHITE: A^sA^s Hh MM (harl-factored) or A^sA^s hh MM ("whites" can be up to 10% pigmented)
> BLACK(MANTLE): A^sA^s HH mm (lethal) or A^sA^s Hh (harl-factored) or MmA^sA^s hh mm
> 
> One slight mutation and genes go from Harlequin to Merle, it has been seen countless times and vise versa. If needed we can go over all genetic disabilities, deformities, defects, etc associated with both.. which is almost identical.


:goodpost:


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## Firehazard

KMdogs said:


> ^ Cant give you rep bud but great post.. Different sequence of virtually the same sequence..Ironic? Its all the same. It is easy to see, unless you refuse to open your eyes.


:clap::clap::clap::goodpost: exactly........... harlequin is another copy or version of merle.. thats right from the dane board.


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## zohawn

Firehazard said:


> :clap::clap::clap::goodpost: exactly........... harlequin is another copy or version of merle.. thats right from the dane board.


either way, its been proven scientifically to be degenerative. why the hell are they breeding those dogs? no wonder most danes are a mess, physically


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## Firehazard

zohawn said:


> either way, its been proven scientifically to be degenerative. why the hell are they breeding those dogs? no wonder most danes are a mess, physically


another :goodpost: by the Zohawn~

SO SHORT AND SWEET!


----------



## Mach0

Firehazard said:


> another :goodpost: by the Zohawn~
> 
> SO SHORT AND SWEET!


Don't mess with the Zohawn.


----------



## KMdogs

zohawn said:


> either way, its been proven scientifically to be degenerative. why the hell are they breeding those dogs? no wonder most danes are a mess, physically


Danes are a disaster in more ways than one, gone from Bandog to its own working breed, to useless show breed to show breed thats a genetic disaster.

I have massive respect and support for those breeding true to the dogs, which is obvious to anyone that has talked to me or knows my dogs..

Merle - Harlequin...One of the same and it brings nothing but problems for any breed. The only merle dogs i've ever seen with zero problems is the CLD's, and even then the very same owners acknowledge how hard it is to find excellent dogs.


----------



## Old_Blood

KMdogs said:


> Disagree completely..but since you mention genetics..
> 
> A series: A^s=black pigment and a^y=fawn pigment.
> H series: H=harlequin, h=non-harl. (HH prone to death of majority of pups, high risk of defects)
> M series: M=merle and m=non-merle. (MM prone to death of majority of pups, high risk of defects)
> S series: S=solid pattern and s^i=mantle pattern.
> T series: T=dominant ticking, t=non-ticking.
> Tw series: Tw=normal harl/merle pattern, tw=merliquin pattern.
> 
> Basic...HARLEQUIN: A^sA^s Hh Mm
> MERLE: A^sA^s hh Mm
> WHITE: A^sA^s Hh MM (harl-factored) or A^sA^s hh MM ("whites" can be up to 10% pigmented)
> BLACK(MANTLE): A^sA^s HH mm (lethal) or A^sA^s Hh (harl-factored) or MmA^sA^s hh mm
> 
> One slight mutation and genes go from Harlequin to Merle, it has been seen countless times and vise versa. If needed we can go over all genetic disabilities, deformities, defects, etc associated with both.. which is almost identical.


I'm not a Dane expert. I researched them because I have an acquaintance who breeds and a friend into them. I initially learned about harlequins as a child because of my mom.

Anyway I'm well aware of color associated health problems. Any gene which causes excess white with lack of pigment / reduction of pigment will almost always come with health problems. Deafness especially, blindness, physical birth defects and pups which are not viable.

The recessive black that appears in a few breeds at the A locus isn't present in the Dane. They only have Ay, at least apparently.
Do you have a link for info on tw? Not familiar with it.

Harlequin like I posted looks different, gene interact with merle but its still its own separate gene. You will see merle in other breeds but not the effects on harlequin on merle because no other breeds seem to have it.

A chocolate dog is a black dog but we recognize it as chocolate. It's a variation caused by a different gene. Even though its just black modified. Even like I mentioned lilac, if a breed only has genes for normal or dilute pigment not liver by default you won't see lilac. Lilac is just a dilute chocolate. Ie a black dog homozygous for liver and dilute.
It's not any different than what I said about harlequin and merle. By default breeds without merle could never be harlequin (if it even existed outside danes) I still see it worth mentioning.

SORRY HAD TO EDIT multi tasking and lost my thought. There are genes that are independent but cause the same effect (physical look). They are still recognized for what they are. A grizzle is a tan point with but has a gene that modifies the look and interacts with tan point. It's seen in sight hounds. People can say "its the samething" but really its a 2nd separate gene that causes the look. Just like the harlequin gene effects merle, without it you wouldn't have the unique type seen, just like with grizzle. Urajiro also creates a similar pattern but apparently without tan point and its seen in spitz. I've observed this color pattern in APBTs. No idea if its genetically the same or a different gene causing similar look as its yet to be isolated that I know of.

Side note to Firehazard yeah, I've seen the issue with the Danes. My friend is into working dogs, but 99% of danes are Flops! The breeders want them to be giant show dog couch potatoes. I'm going to try and reread your post.


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## KMdogs

I can refer books if you wish, links i can't find many.. Dog Coat Colour Genetics this one briefly goes over Tw as well as explains further, in a very, very basic way how/why merle/harlequin are one of the same. I just skimmed through it so can't say i agree to all information on the page posted but its decent enough to look at. Generally online genetic information is all one of the same information re-wrote, not a whole lot of broad K9 online references out there..Not that i've really noticed at least.


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## Old_Blood

Thanks KM I truthfully appreciate it. I read up in it. 

I also read harlequin which says what I was trying to say in my post last night. It causes the lack of pigment, the gray to be white. Merle dogs are merle dogs, which begs the question why are clearly plain straight merle dogs being labeled as harlequin? Like the pics posted. Harlequin modifies the merle causing white yet these dogs clearly don't have the harlequin gene. If it looks merle it only merle not a harl. Can't say I'm surprised as I've seen a seal pit REGISTERED as chocolate and one from another breeder REGISTERED as gray. Um yeah wth.


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## Old_Blood

Firehazard your post are hard to follow.

Merle and harlequin are different.

You stated yesterday they were on the same locus, now you said it is a color of merle?

You posted pics of merle dogs, calling them harl won't change what they are. The pedigree Dane, if it were actually harlequin it wouldn't have the gray background. That would be white. The dogs are mis labeled and that is the problem. If you register a merle Dane as harlequin you will get a DQ and no further in the ring than if you register a merle "pit" as black with grey tones. Like those lab people registering brindle as chocolate or black.



Firehazard said:


> Merle is the same stuff by another name; its carried on the locus the same way and merle does not trump harelquin as they are the same merle pups are spit out of harelquin litters very often. I've seen to many similarities so we'll have to agree to disagree there.


Merle and harl are on separate locus.

They are similar in that they dilute pigment. Merle cause black to be gray, eyes to be blue, ect. Harlequin causes loss of pigment, gray to be white which is why you get the black spots. Dogs with gray / black are merle, not harl, they don't have an H no matter what people want to call them. Even with a lot of white, double merle causes excess white. They are not Harls.



> Brindle trumps black and tan or Black,white, and tan, which trumps brindle .. meaning the dogs gonna carry one or the other.. With the danes and this issue they are both on the same locus.  I dont care what politics says.


Can you explain what you mean about these colors.

Black and tan with brindle are seen as they are on different loci. Brindle shows over tan/fawn/red whatever. But the black mask it and its only visible with tan point.

Yes apparently some people call MERLE harlequin even though it isn't, its merle alone, no harlequin gene present otherwise merle wouldn't be apparent. Think about as how white leaves a dog devoid of color. Harlequin does that to the diluted parts of a merles coat. So it appears to be white with black spots.



> Solid black coat trumps the merle as does the solid white coat, the dog cant have both, however harlequin is a "color" of merle, because you have danes labeled harlequin and merle in some kennels


What? I can't follow.

A black with merle allele will be merle. Merle causes dilution of black color. So you get dogs which are gray with black spots or patches.

White voids color what are you meaning?
A dog can't have both what.

People can label their dogs anything. This doesn't mean they are correct. M and H are visually different, I see nothing wrong with giving them their own distinguished names. I could call a chocolate a lilac, but its not because it doesn't have the dilute gene. People can say anything they often do. A chocolate is only a chocolate, it isnt a lilac without the dilute gene. Which causes a visual difference. The same way merle is merle, you can call it harlequin but it isn't with the gene and it won't look like a harl, only merle.

I get what you are saying about champagne, people calling it whatever champagne, silver fawn, ect its still the same color but that's my point with the above. Merle is just merle no matter what its called, its not harl without the gene and that will make it physically different. If I had a champagne and called it a buckskin its not just a buckskin its got genes modifying it, if I had a fawn but called it champagne samething as calling a merle a harl when its not and doesnt have the gene, I'm mislabeling the dog. The same way these merle people are.

I've not seen the brindle merles, merle only effects black pigment -diluting it- so if a brindle had an allele for merle seems not much would be effected other than the stripes?


----------



## pwgriffin

KMdogs said:


> Nope, i meant merle and bulldogs.. Wont touch them. Any breed for that matter where the pattern merle is known to be mixed relatively recent compared to that said breeds existence..
> 
> Too many problems are linked to the gene, i know some great hunters that are CLD -APBT crosses AKA Catahoula Bulldog but i've seen more problematic merle dogs than successful. Too risky for some hounds that offer nothing more than other hounds out there. I'll stick to my Bandogs or Bulldogs.
> 
> Also seen some HIGHLY unpredictable American Bulldog - CLD crosses, unpredictable meaning both mentality and working ability. Just not worth it.


i really like how you responded with three paragraphs without actually understanding the quoted text...you said you wouldn't even FEED a merle...as in you would let it starve...i was trying to help you because i think you meant "breed".

i've just been thinking about this subject a bit, and people seem to be very adamant about the purity of the breed. I don't know that i quite follow, because it's my understanding that pitbulls have two different ancestors...in the old english bull dog and terriers....


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## Firehazard

okay.. .. its very clear that merle and harlequin are a blend and a seperation of each other though the mutation isn't far enough apart not to BLEND... .. 

I didnt' label those danes .. those are imported danes and domestic danes with a ped that goes back to all imports .. I didn't label that punit square either.. and as it was said on the dane board.. " harelquin is another copy or version of merle" 

and all of that harelquin, brindlequin, fawnquin, on a bulldog is MERLE.. on a working dog its MERLE. ON pampered show dogs, its what ever makes money and sounds classy. 

my first post with the pics I posted a brindlequin  and fawnquin was at the kennel I posted on that as well. both is merle in the working dog world and the reason is simple they are a blend of each other. 

They isolated harelquin seperate from merle .. but its not or it couldnt blend, different alles is what they are. 

black and tan Apbts .. and Brindle Apbts.. thats the stuff that replace each other or trumps each other on the locus and thus in the punit square, they dont blend they trump because they are seperate. NOT the case with the harelquin and merle, they do blend cause they are variations of one another. .. it cant be said any better by me and I even posted a nice color coded punit square. I appologize for my hamster wheel, I call a mind.. Its full of so many useless facts for conversations just like this. Because science showed they are seperate.. LOL they blend.. they are seperated from each other but they are of each other .. or there wouldnt be merle dogs labeled harelquin from the 1980s and earlier all the way up to the current date. Conoseurs of the harelquin are gonna be on the look out for the best stock; then they should be working their dogs, because the whole stock is tainted.


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## Sadie

Who cares about a damn merle! No APBT should ever be merle and if one shows up it should be culled and not bred. Just my 2 cents on the matter. Continue on .... LOL


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## KMdogs

Firehazard said:


> okay.. .. its very clear that merle and harlequin are a blend and a seperation of each other though the mutation isn't far enough apart not to BLEND... ..
> 
> I didnt' label those danes .. those are imported danes and domestic danes with a ped that goes back to all imports .. I didn't label that punit square either.. and as it was said on the dane board.. " harelquin is another copy or version of merle"
> 
> and all of that harelquin, brindlequin, fawnquin, on a bulldog is MERLE.. on a working dog its MERLE. ON pampered show dogs, its what ever makes money and sounds classy.
> 
> my first post with the pics I posted a brindlequin  and fawnquin was at the kennel I posted on that as well. both is merle in the working dog world and the reason is simple they are a blend of each other.
> 
> They isolated harelquin seperate from merle .. but its not or it couldnt blend, different alles is what they are.
> 
> black and tan Apbts .. and Brindle Apbts.. thats the stuff that replace each other or trumps each other on the locus and thus in the punit square, they dont blend they trump because they are seperate. NOT the case with the harelquin and merle, they do blend cause they are variations of one another. .. it cant be said any better by me and I even posted a nice color coded punit square. I appologize for my hamster wheel, I call a mind.. Its full of so many useless facts for conversations just like this. Because science showed they are seperate.. LOL they blend.. they are seperated from each other but they are of each other .. or there wouldnt be merle dogs labeled harelquin from the 1980s and earlier all the way up to the current date. Conoseurs of the harelquin are gonna be on the look out for the best stock; then they should be working their dogs, because the whole stock is tainted.


:goodpost::goodpost::clap:



Sadie said:


> Who cares about a damn merle! No APBT should ever be merle and if one shows up it should be culled and not bred. Just my 2 cents on the matter. Continue on .... LOL


LOL! If only these "special" breeders thought that way.. :goodpost:


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## zohawn

Sadie said:


> Who cares about a damn merle! No APBT should ever be merle and if one shows up it should be culled and not bred. Just my 2 cents on the matter. Continue on .... LOL


i would go 1 extra step and dna test both parents and remove that parent from the breeding program


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## Old_Blood

Griffin I think you're making something out of nothing. It's just saying so what's the big deal. They are not going to go get a dog they don't want just to deprive it of food. Sayings are just that, sayings.

Sadie best point I've heard

Firehazard 
It does modify but lots of genes do, I understand what you. I see how they are similar in their effects and that harl interacts with merle. Many colors are the combination of genes and one effecting the other. 

Black - Chocolate: dilution by liver gene - Lilac: dilution of chocolate by dilute gene
Black - Merle: dilution to portions of the coat - Harlequin: lack of pigment to the diluted part of the coat

Genes have similar effects, but exist separate and multiple genes interact to bring about coat color and type. 

Both dilute and liver cause dilution of pigment and together cause another look, just as merle dilutes and a harlequin gene will cause further pigment loss to white, together they make a new phenotype. 

Maybe I should say general "you" when speaking of mislabeled dogs. Harls have been around prior to 80s of people calling plain merle absent of H harls. At any rate they are misrepresenting what their dogs really are in both phenotype and genotype. 

I believe that the other BS is just the name game or politics if you wish, like fawnequin or brindlequin, ect 

Merle dilutes black pigment therefore Fawns (red) can't be harlequin, they are not effected by the merle gene. While harlequin is dominant they only carry it because their is no diluted pigment to bring about the expression of the harlequin pattern. They can produce harlequin if bred to the right dog, one that is merle or harlequin (which will have issue with double harl).There could also be double merle issue if the fawn has an allele for merle. 
Harl basically can't act alone.

I appreciate the stuff posted but I couldn't see all the pics and things, my phone is funny sometimes, I can see where there should be pics but they don't load. 

I want to know why with the risk do people breed merles together? It's a dominant gene, it is careless. I see too many selfish things done for the sake of looks be it color or unhealthy structure. Dogs can't function.


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## pwgriffin

well im curious now...tell me what you can based on this pic and the fact that hes 7 weeks ish...choc coat, red nose, and blue eyes

lol sorry about pic size


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## KMdogs

Looks like a pup..not really sure what your looking for us to say. Young pup and too young to really make any comment on structure or anything.


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## zohawn

the blue eyes are from him being a puppy, everything else is normal


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## pwgriffin

KMdogs said:


> Looks like a pup..not really sure what your looking for us to say. Young pup and too young to really make any comment on structure or anything.


i wasnt sure if the coat denoted anything..also wondered if blue eyes meant maybe poor or degenerative eyesight later..and im also unaware of the diffs between blue and red noses if any.


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## Old_Blood

Dog should be fine in general. 

The coat just means he's a black dog with the liver gene, the eyes mean he has genes for blue eyes since he doesn't have excess white. There are lots of non blue dogs with blue eyes. I've red, red red nose, seal ect with blue eyes and sometimes green.

Eye sight should be fine most likely in your pups case.

It's true pup are born with blue eyes, but by 7 weeks the eye color is usually set. Normally by 4 weeks you can see the other color creeping in indicating their permanent eye color. 

The difference is their color. There is some other difference based on lineage and lines but its not as simple as blue nose red nose automatically being different.


----------



## Indie

angelbaby said:


> Putting this here cause there is alot of good info already in here about this color that new people could benefit from. There is a kennel with american bullys adevertising the ABKC's 1st merle litter ... After finally getting through to someone from the ABKC asking about if this is true or not and if this color is accepted even , the answer is NO, not accepted at all. This breeder is false advertising OR registering them under a different color. Thought any of the new members joining or new to the breed could benefit from reading this so they arent con'd into something they think is alright.
> http://blueswaggerline.yolasite.com/picture-gallery.php


WTF!!! Puppies should NOT be held up by their scruff like that! Jeez!! For $1000, you think they could take PROPER photos!!


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## pwgriffin

Old_Blood said:


> Dog should be fine in general.
> 
> The coat just means he's a black dog with the liver gene, the eyes mean he has genes for blue eyes since he doesn't have excess white. There are lots of non blue dogs with blue eyes. I've red, red red nose, seal ect with blue eyes and sometimes green.
> 
> Eye sight should be fine most likely in your pups case.
> 
> It's true pup are born with blue eyes, but by 7 weeks the eye color is usually set. Normally by 4 weeks you can see the other color creeping in indicating their permanent eye color.
> 
> The difference is their color. There is some other difference based on lineage and lines but its not as simple as blue nose red nose automatically being different.


what does the liver gene mean?


----------



## Old_Blood

It is a recessive mutation that causes black pigment to dilute to liver. Coat, nose, eye rim ect. 

A black dog will be chocolate
A brindle will have chocolate or red stripes 
A buckskin will have the red nose and skin pigment but you will notice darker red/chocolate hairs in many of their coats that would normally be black


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## performanceknls

Indie said:


> WTF!!! Puppies should NOT be held up by their scruff like that! Jeez!! For $1000, you think they could take PROPER photos!!


Agreed there is better ways to take pictures but I scruff my pups all the time  makes a great handle if done properly.... properly is the key word!!


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## Sadie

Gotta love the little captions on these pups! I swear people kill me with this extremely rare ****!


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## KMdogs

Sadie said:


> Gotta love the little captions on these pups! I swear people kill me with this extremely rare ****!


LMAO!!! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!!!!! Have you wanted an ultra rarity?? Thats right i said RARITY? Well look no further than Bladez Death Machine Knlz folks cause we got them all..

Theyre MERLE! Theyre BLUE! Theyre RARE!! Theyre ONLY $999.99!!


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## Firehazard

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: hahahaha ... better upruns: they're going fast... 

dang thats nuts, a 1000k curdog and it aint even field tested.


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## angelbaby

KMdogs said:


> LMAO!!! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!!!!! Have you wanted an ultra rarity?? Thats right i said RARITY? Well look no further than Bladez Death Machine Knlz folks cause we got them all..
> 
> Theyre MERLE! Theyre BLUE! Theyre RARE!! Theyre ONLY $999.99!!


LMAO needed a laugh right now that was good LOL


----------



## Sadie

KMdogs said:


> LMAO!!! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!!!!! Have you wanted an ultra rarity?? Thats right i said RARITY? Well look no further than Bladez Death Machine Knlz folks cause we got them all..
> 
> Theyre MERLE! Theyre BLUE! Theyre RARE!! Theyre ONLY $999.99!!


Am I the only one who thinks this color/pattern is ugly as sin? Looks like a cow who rolled in paint I don't like the merle color it's freaking ugly IMO.


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## Firehazard

What I've noticed is all "Bulldog" stains, bloodlines, and off shoots ... 

they all look like cows,bulls ... you find the variety and there is a bulldog/bandog to match... 

I find this ironic because they are the traditional stock dog and it just is funny that bulldogs can be camoflauged in a herd of cattle. What ever species of cow there is a bulldog/bandog to match.

I agree with the merle being ugly... some of them catahoula bulldogs can work and wont cur out unless a game dog gets a hold of em, still yet they are cur. Black Mouth curs are kick downs from game dogs well **** all curs are kick down from game dogs because there are no curs allowed. LOL Then some good ol boy bred em for hunting. Then some fool thought it would be good money and pulled a heavy APBT merle dog back into the strain with "RUNG" papers no less. Voila~ now we have registered MERLE APBTs :hammer: .. DissssgusstING! they are catahoula bulldogs ... nothing more nothing less. Which if I like merle, Id have a Catahoula bulldog. I dont really like the Catahoula leopard dogs at all although I've worked with a few good uns, but they are kick downs from curs and eventually went back to a game bred dog and formed the Catahoula Bulldog which is where the merle came creeping back into the APBT strain, beggin the question.... Am I the only one who thinks these dogs are ugly as all get out?


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## KMdogs

Guys you are missing the point! They are RARE and CASH flow security in tough economic times! Just imagine, BLUE MERLE 100LBS "APBT"S!!! I mean we talking $5,000 a pop easy! Genetics? Health? Psshh! Who needs that! 

Seriously.. Ugly as sin, unreliable, unpredictable, dozen or so health problems directly associated to the gene not to mention another dozen or so problems directly associated with poor breeding. Why bother and why risk it when we are talking about getting a proper worker for maybe every 50 pups.. Maybe, from my experience thats even pushing it.


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## Firehazard

KMdogs said:


> Guys you are missing the point! They are RARE and CASH flow security in tough economic times! Just imagine, BLUE MERLE 100LBS "APBT"S!!! I mean we talking $5,000 a pop easy! Genetics? Health? Psshh! Who needs that!
> 
> Seriously.. Ugly as sin, unreliable, unpredictable, dozen or so health problems directly associated to the gene not to mention another dozen or so problems directly associated with poor breeding. Why bother and why risk it when we are talking about getting a proper worker for maybe every 50 pups.. Maybe, from my experience thats even pushing it.


hahahahahahaha! :rofl:


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## KuroOokami

I hate to dig up old posts but I was speaking with someone whom had a merle APBT dog and I was able to weasal out of the person the dogs pedigree. You go back past the initial four generations into generation five or gen. six and you don't have registered [pedigreed] parents in that dogs gene pool which to me indicates it's a mix / mutt.

Same thing with kennel that ABK referenced in one of their defense to merles. One of the kennels' studs
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [110047] :: TURNER'S RED CODY IV.

Turner's Cody has no written grandparents and if someone tells me the father is an APBT I'll be surprised.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=80083


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## KMdogs

KuroOokami said:


> I hate to dig up old posts but I was speaking with someone whom had a merle APBT dog and I was able to weasal out of the person the dogs pedigree. You go back past the initial four generations into generation five or gen. six and you don't have registered [pedigreed] parents in that dogs gene pool which to me indicates it's a mix / mutt.
> 
> Same thing with kennel that ABK referenced in one of their defense to merles. One of the kennels' studs
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [110047] :: TURNER'S RED CODY IV.
> 
> Turner's Cody has no written grandparents and if someone tells me the father is an APBT I'll be surprised.
> 
> ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [80083] :: TURNER'S CODY


ABK is a joke, passing off mutts as APBTs.. If anything you could either call them Catahoula Bulldogs, if bred to the sense of the name or just generic Bulldogs.. That is if you must have a name for them, otherwise just mutts. ABK defends their producing to no end as well as their stock holding on to the idea of cryptic merles. Meaning, the genes that produce the merle coat has always been in the breed but "hidden" visually up until that "chance" breeding happens where the traits get thrown visually. It is a joke and never spoken to an old gentlemen who spoke of it any other way.

It is NOT a color for a Bulldog nor has it always been, it was introduced.. When? Theres no specific time that it could be pointed to however now in days its all about $$.. Merle is the original Blue and it goes back and forth between whats "hot".. Usually mutts, some Bulldogs but nothing APBT.


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## SMiGGs

Hey whats up everyone just bought a merle pup came into this thread to learn a bit more about them.


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## Kingsgurl

You bought a mixed pup? Why? I though you wanted to show?


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## SMiGGs

im just kidding lol


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## Kingsgurl

Oh, thank god, lol Ignore me, I'm drinking, makes me slow(er) on the uptake. I was like WTF???


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## KuroOokami

KMdogs said:


> ABK is a joke, passing off mutts as APBTs.. If anything you could either call them Catahoula Bulldogs, if bred to the sense of the name or just generic Bulldogs.. That is if you must have a name for them, otherwise just mutts. ABK defends their producing to no end as well as their stock holding on to the idea of cryptic merles. Meaning, the genes that produce the merle coat has always been in the breed but "hidden" visually up until that "chance" breeding happens where the traits get thrown visually. It is a joke and never spoken to an old gentlemen who spoke of it any other way.
> 
> It is NOT a color for a Bulldog nor has it always been, it was introduced.. When? Theres no specific time that it could be pointed to however now in days its all about $$.. Merle is the original Blue and it goes back and forth between whats "hot".. Usually mutts, some Bulldogs but nothing APBT.


I won't get into the blue as blue is a dilute and as such recessive - so one never knows it might have been in there somewhere [in the beginning] just never showed up until a literal chance breeding of two d dilute carrying dogs. Then severe inbreeding to make it a more pronounced trait, etc... and it all goes down from there.

But the same - no matter how a person says so - can't be said because merle is a dominant trait. It's always been found as a dominant trait. In some dogs / breeds it is maintained as an incomplete dominant trait and as such can be "hidden" by more dominanting factors / traits but it's still there as much a cryptic [hidden] merle bred to a regular dog is going to have at least some merle pups.

On that note though there is the panda GSD - which has been proven to be pure blooded pedigreed animals [her pedigree below] is a mutant piebalded gene that has become dominant. It gives the breed / pups a tri-colored almost hound look. This is completely different from the merle that was supposedly in the APBT and just became visible [as I have heard in some circles that the merle trait is a mutant gene] in that GSDs always carried the genes for white spotting. Frankie [the original panda] just had a mutant gene that expanded upon what was already in the gene pool.

So yeah to me, and I'll never buy one, merles are mongrels. 
Lewcinkas Franka von Phenom - German Shepherd Dog


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## zohawn

anything black can throw blue


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## Old_Blood

KuroOokami said:


> But the same - no matter how a person says so - can't be said because merle is a dominant trait. It's always been found as a dominant trait. In some dogs / breeds it is maintained as an incomplete dominant trait and as such can be "hidden" by more dominanting factors / traits but it's still there as much a cryptic [hidden] merle bred to a regular dog is going to have at least some merle pups.


It is expressed as an incomplete dominant but dominant none the less. It's full effects are seen in homozygous state.

However it can be hidden in red or fawn dogs. Merle dilutes black pigment, a red dog can carry the merle gene with no effects. If said dog is bred to another red then you'd have more red pups and no merles. Breed to a black and you'd probably get a merle or two depending on litter size and how many black. You'd have like a 25% chance of producing a merle, so in a litter of 4 you could expect to see 2 reds, a black and a merle but you don't always get what you'd expect. Even with breeding a merle in a litter of 4 there is a slight chance that none would inherit the merle gene, you could expect it to happen 6.25% of the time. Throw in the fact that merle bred to black still will likely be carrying recessive to allow red to express you could have no black pups get merle gene but create a cryptic merle.

With your statement of "other dominating factors" you could be onto something there. Some merle dogs are almost all black with nothing more then a small patch indicating they are merle. Double merle usually have excessive white, further dilution and health issues. Yet some are really not hardly distinguished from het. Merles and don't have abnormalities, blindless or deafness. Separate genes acting as suppressers to restrict the effects of merle are possible. But unknown at this point and playing with merle and producing double merles is a risky gamble.



> On that note though there is the panda GSD - which has been proven to be pure blooded pedigreed animals [her pedigree below] is a mutant piebalded gene that has become dominant. It gives the breed / pups a tri-colored almost hound look. This is completely different from the merle that was supposedly in the APBT and just became visible [as I have heard in some circles that the merle trait is a mutant gene] in that GSDs always carried the genes for white spotting. Frankie [the original panda] just had a mutant gene that expanded upon what was already in the gene pool.
> 
> So yeah to me, and I'll never buy one, merles are mongrels.
> Lewcinkas Franka von Phenom - German Shepherd Dog


Very interesting GSD. Though its not hard to believe since white and bi color exist in the breed.

Merle is a mutation like most colors we see in dogs including blue which you mentioned.


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