# protection training a good idea?



## xiao bai (Oct 16, 2006)

i just brought home my baby boy , hes bluenose with 1/4 mastiff and i have been watching the incredible things that can be done in protection training. This seems like a good outlet for energy as well as good exercise and time well spent together. The precise control is just amazing. is this kind of training appropriate for this breed of dog? i notice it is done with many shepardds or malnois or even rotties. does anyone here participate in such events and what is a good age to begin this kind of training?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

you must get basic obediance down first,then work on the protection.
do i think its a good thing to do with a apbt,YES,many folks will disagree and state that the apbt should not be used for such things but i disagree.
in all honestly your dog is basically a bandooge,bandogges are my thing and i can help you find a good protection trainer if you are interesed and in my area.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

hey cane, I am iliterate when it come to protection, last weekend we had eddie out in the feilds and a hunter came out of the corn with a shotgun and eddie wanted to disembowel him. it took both of us to hold him back. Is this something that we can get a handle on? he has a strong sit-stay and redirect in any situation but he would not when he saw the hunter. maybe this type of training could be beneficial. any thoughts?


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## xiao bai (Oct 16, 2006)

yeah he is only 9 week old so it will be awhile but im sure i will have some questions for you ..... pics coming soon!


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## Judy (Dec 12, 2005)

What kind of protection training?


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

I've never seen a pit where protection training was professionaly done. Just stupid people that think they have to make their dogs mean and nonsocial before they will provide protection. Now, that's stupid. You don't have to make a pitty mean to make him love you and want to protect you. But, professional training could be benificial in helping the dog recognize a dangerouse situation and how to react to different circumstances. But, as Cane said, your dog is more in his area of expertise, so I would take his word for it.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

basic obedance is the foundation of protection work,any type of dog thats is trained to attack with out first having a strong foundation of obedieance is a real liability,and especialy when concerning the apbt.
Redog,
i cant speak for your dog with out seeing it but,i believe pp training would be a good idea,a profesionaly trained protection dog never attacks for no reason.
I dont know if anybodys familar with Ken Buzzle or land of the giants kennel,but those are apbts specificaly bred for protection
and they are featured in the video"dogs that protect"real cool two part video,its worth checking out.theres been sch titled apbts,the apbt is amazing ,very versitile and capable of all kinds of work,even protection..


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

where can you get those videos cane?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

i sure hope this link works,this is a video of a profesionaly trained apbt in protection,great dog..
http://www.k9sts.com/rumblefarmmovie/
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

wheezie,
this is the site with the dogs that protect videos.a bit pricey but worth it50$ for the two part series,over 5 hrs of footage.
http://www.dogsthatprotect.com/


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

that is pricey but ill probably end up buying it. my trainer does national Schutzhund competitions. i told her i want lil rico to go all the way to a national level. She told me she has to check and test his temperment before she will train him for that, hopefully we caon do it.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I have to say that was totally awsome. I have very mixed feelings about training APBT'S for bite work. I know that dog was excellent but say under all legal circumstances that dog was in the right and was called to bite an assailant or attacker and performed his duty to a "T" I still see it as a media parade. I know its not fair to the breed it just seems really risky to me. I believe they make excellent dogs for it, I just dont think the world is ready or willing to understand.

AWSOME video though. That dog was great! Called off better than alot of police dogs!!!


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

ofk,
i agree,it is risky and its great to hear other opinions on this.it must be said protection dogs only belong in the hands of the responsable and with the media circus around apbts i understand your opinion.I personaly may put my next dog into pp training,but im not sure that next dog will be a apbt..


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ya like what kinda of protection??? Harley does it automatically.. Like with me and my house. Am i talking about the same thing here??:stick:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

were talking about a profesionaly trained protection dog,not a dog being protective of its house or owner,any do will do that, a shitzu a poodle a chiuahua they will all be territorial around house and owners.Were talking about a profesianal protection dog that will not back down,just because a dog acts protective dosent mean it will actually commit to engaging the man,alot of times its just a threat display..


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

cane76 said:


> were talking about a profesionaly trained protection dog,not a dog being protective of its house or owner,any do will do that, a shitzu a poodle a chiuahua they will all be territorial around house and owners.Were talking about a profesianal protection dog that will not back down,just because a dog acts protective dosent mean it will actually commit to engaging the man,alot of times its just a threat display..


You tellin me?? Mary Jane scares people when Joe's not home. She's protective (territorial) of me. But, once the people come in, she's just fine. Now, she'll bark and growl and act like a badass, but if I ever let her go, she'd probably run for the fence!!! She's a crazy dog!!!


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

No, Not territorial, Harley has come to protect me, I really dont think hes being "terrorial" I think hes being protective. And besides, what good are little dogs at protecting a house?? Haha Harley does not let anyone fight with me at all, I have even had to tell my hubby to stop cuz Harley was Freaking out on him.. And he doesnt like drunks..


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## smokey_joe (Oct 14, 2005)

It's always been my experience that if a dog loves you, then it will protect you. They know when to start kicking ass. I don't think any of our members have anything to worry about. But, I wanna see how one acts with *professional training.*


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

ya thats what i love about this breed, They will love you till death and even there after!!!!!


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## Nation (Sep 27, 2006)

What reason would you have to make your dog a so called protection dog. If you want a guard dog get a presa or rottweiller who are naturals. I just dont see a situation where a everyday person would need a command to have his dog bite. (typically if that situation arises hopefully your animal would protect you anyways)

I actually think this kind of training should be restricted to cop dogs or something dealing with law enforcement. The typical person does not need to make his pet a weapon.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> must be said protection dogs only belong in the hands of the responsable


This is why I feel the way I do. Too many pits, well pits in general only belong in the hands of the responsible people but there are too many idiots out there with them ruining the breed. I would HATE to see and idiot get an APBT PP trained!!! Thats all. I would love to see the cops use them! Im not saying its wrong, I just shudder at the thought of idiots starting to do this with a large number of pits.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

One thing must be said,idiots dont take the time and blood and sweat,$ to get there dogs titled in working events, this includes pp,and dog sports such as schuthund,french ring etc,if folks are doing this with apbts more power to them.I mean this isnt something folks do on there own,they join clubs ran by pros and people with a wealth of experiance, if a particular indavidual is a idiot im sure they wont be allowed to compeate or even break the surface of such skills and events.Nobody would allow a unstable person or dog to partake in such activities.
If presas and corsos,bandogges etc can do it,so can a apbt all though this is not what these dogs were bred for of course,the working mastiff is a dog with a high defense drive,the apbt is a high prey drive dog such as a malinoi or gsd which would mean that the apbt is more suited for police work than a working mastiff.One thing people should realize about there own dogs is that 
a dog that snarls and growls and lunges at strange folks or when somebody comes to the door,mailman etc,is showing a threat display,they are trying to scare off the man,all that is a display of nervousness or weak nerve,a real protection dog dosent bark unless it is instucted to,they attack with out warning,so just because your dog bites at your husbands feet when you play fight,or snarles and growls at every thing it just shows a dog lacking confadance and a nervous animal.you can chose to believe me or believe what you want,but im not talking just out of a opinion,alot of the things you think you see with your dogs are not what they seem.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

cane76 said:


> One thing must be said,idiots dont take the time and blood and sweat,$ to get there dogs titled in working events, this includes pp,and dog sports such as schuthund,french ring etc,if folks are doing this with apbts more power to them.I mean this isnt something folks do on there own,they join clubs ran by pros and people with a wealth of experiance, if a particular indavidual is a idiot im sure they wont be allowed to compeate or even break the surface of such skills and events.Nobody would allow a unstable person or dog to partake in such activities.
> If presas and corsos,bandogges etc can do it,so can a apbt all though this is not what these dogs were bred for of course,the working mastiff is a dog with a high defense drive,the apbt is a high prey drive dog such as a malinoi or gsd which would mean that the apbt is more suited for police work than a working mastiff.One thing people should realize about there own dogs is that
> a dog that snarls and growls and lunges at strange folks or when somebody comes to the door,mailman etc,is showing a threat display,they are trying to scare off the man,all that is a display of nervousness or weak nerve,a real protection dog dosent bark unless it is instucted to,they attack with out warning,so just because your dog bites at your husbands feet when you play fight,or snarles and growls at every thing it just shows a dog lacking confadance and a nervous animal.you can chose to believe me or believe what you want,but im not talking just out of a opinion,alot of the things you think you see with your dogs are not what they seem.


Ok im Just wondering.... Is that pointed at me???


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## xiao bai (Oct 16, 2006)

*this is my interest*

that is my point of interest... total control under all kinds of circumstances and eliminating nervous or insecure behaviour. great exercise and great bonding time. these pp dogs really are trained to a supreme level i feel would be nothing but benificial not only to the dog but to demonstrate that this breed is not unstable, only unstable owners produce unstable dogs.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Nation said:


> What reason would you have to make your dog a so called protection dog. If you want a guard dog get a presa or rottweiller who are naturals. I just dont see a situation where a everyday person would need a command to have his dog bite. (typically if that situation arises hopefully your animal would protect you anyways)
> 
> I actually think this kind of training should be restricted to cop dogs or something dealing with law enforcement. The typical person does not need to make his pet a weapon.


my dog Eddie is a cane corso and he is almost 9 months old, and Im into animal behavior, but not training at this degree What Im talking about is his protective tendancies, which I want to learn eveything there is to know about it so I can manage him IF a problem with protection arises. Eddia has a strong come, sit, stay.. and a strong redirect, very strong! when the hunter with a shotgun came out of the cornfeild, I thought I was going to loose control. I dont ever want to feel like that again. So I appreciate Cane steering me in the direction I need to go


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Very true REDOG.

That hunter coming out could just have startled him and set him into a defensive mode or he could have felt very threatened by it.


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## Judy (Dec 12, 2005)

Cane, how does the protection training work on APBT's? It doesn't turn them human aggresive?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

pantera2006 said:


> Ok im Just wondering.... Is that pointed at me???


no pantera its not pointed towards you,i get all caught up in this stuff and i understand some folks are younger or more inexperianced than others,your passonate about the apbt,i respect that alot.im just saying alot of what people think they see from there dogs is not 100% correct,sure alot of dogs will growl and bark and bite somebody and alot of times this is a dog biting out of fear,a protection dog is diffrent.These fear biters need to be eliminated from the gene pool any ways, its a large reason were in this bsl situation.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

judy,
like i said,a very firm and real basic obediance is instilled into a pp dog,in all actuallity it makes the dog more stable 10 fold,but just like ofk stated folks must be responsable,fortunatley people doing k9 pro sports are mainly experts,but of course the apbt is seldom used compared to other breeds..


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## Judy (Dec 12, 2005)

cane76 said:


> judy,
> like i said,a very firm and real basic obediance is instilled into a pp dog,in all actuallity it makes the dog more stable 10 fold,but just like ofk stated folks must be responsable,fortunatley people doing k9 pro sports are mainly experts,but of course the apbt is seldom used compared to other breeds..


Ok, I understand now. Thanks Cane.


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## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

cane76 said:


> no pantera its not pointed towards you,i get all caught up in this stuff and i understand some folks are younger or more inexperianced than others,your passonate about the apbt,i respect that alot.im just saying alot of what people think they see from there dogs is not 100% correct,sure alot of dogs will growl and bark and bite somebody and alot of times this is a dog biting out of fear,a protection dog is diffrent.These fear biters need to be eliminated from the gene pool any ways, its a large reason were in this bsl situation.


Ok, i kinda get it now, But i did'nt want you to think that Harley Bites outta fear!! He has never even growled at another person for no reason... There was a time my hubby had a friend come in and the guy was so drunk and loud, Now i had 3 really small kids at the time and he was scaring me, like alot.... (bring out the pianos and violins cuz heres my sob story Haha JK) But i grew up with an alcholic father, now , he never hit noone, my mom would beat him up  but he was loud and would start fights... So it did scare me when people were drunk like that around my kids, but Harley maybe, i think, could tell that i was nervous and scared from it... He didnt growl or show his teeth or anything, just kept barking at the guy.. I told Mac(hubby) To get the guy outta the house, he was scaring my dog and me, Well he did.. but once the guy was gone, Harley came up to me and hopped up on the couch and put his head on my lap like it was his job... but other then that Harley is a well socialized dog. OMG!!!! I have another atory for ya!!! I believe that digs can sence a evilness about certain people!! Thats why i trust dogs, almost more then people, But i had a party at my house and a friend brought this guy over. He was an odd ball, i didnt like him at all, well, neither did Harley, (oopps i lied he growled at 1 person) He would growl at this guy if this guy came near him.. I was mad at him SO much!!! I told everyone that he was a great dog.. The guy was like "your dog is mean!! Hes going to bite someone, put him to sleep" I was like "he just dont like you" Idiot!! But the WIREDEST thing in the world, this guy was wanted in Ontario for child molestation!!!!! They caught him 2 weeks after my house!!!! I had no idea!!! Everyone was praising Harley telling him how good he was and that he shoulda bit his "no no" area off!! Haha So since that i have trusted him with my life, mind you he has never done it since then.. But like i said, he has never done it outta fear, that was the only time and that was 4 years ago... So i just dont want people thinking that i dont know about the breed, cuz i do... I have had APBT for 7 years now and would love to have more, but it is the stupid people, that train them to do dumb things that have made it so i can't...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

heres another cool video of a apbt fully protection trained,what do you guys think...
http://media.putfile.com/Justice-Trailer-02


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

another video of punchline's rumble,redboy/chinaman ....


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

I am still not sure where I stand on this subject....
With all the time, care and patience that went in to domesticating the dog it just seems like 10 steps backwards..

I can respect the amount of time and compassion involved with the training though...

It's a stale mate for me...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

could you explain further,im not sure ii get exactly what your saying?
pp is the highest form of obediance and disipline,im not sure how that could be a step back and im definetly interested in others views,
thanx eric....


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

It took hundreds of years to turn wolves into domesticated animals to the point where they were human friendly, and now we are turning them on humans again...Any breed for that matter, I don't agree with the police using German shepards either..

Like I said ealier I can respect the devotion to the training though....


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

I don't agree with the APBT being trained for pp the breed has never been bred to be human aggressive and I don't think it should be trained to be I personally would choose from one of the other breeds that were bred for that type of work.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Cane does have a point though..
a professionally trained one in the right hands is much safer than one who bites out of fear..

Its still a toss up for me though....


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

bully said:


> I don't agree with the APBT being trained for pp the breed has never been bred to be human aggressive and I don't think it should be trained to be I personally would choose from one of the other breeds that were bred for that type of work.


Yes true,
but there is only a handfull of dogs ever developed for protection,one was the bull mastiff,the other was the doberman,but still the live stock guardian traits of the gsd prove great for protection as well as the malinoi and many other breeds,even poodles[standard] are good protection dogs if trained for it.One thing must be considered,a protection dog isnt human aggresive with out a reason,its just well trained,theres a greater chance of being bit by a pet bull or even a fighting apbt before being bit by a properly trained protection dog,the basis of the training is built around stable temperments,theres a diffrence between a real profesionaly trained pp dog and a junk yard dog,
just a few things to ponder....


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

I see what your saying but I don't like the idea of the APBT being used for pp the breed already has a negative image and I don't think the public seeing or hearing about pitbulls being used for pp would help that image.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

This is why it's a tossup for me, The APBT has enough problems with its image
yet a properly trained one could prove to be less of a threat, to people....

I duno...


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## bully (May 27, 2006)

ericschevy said:


> Cane does have a point though..
> a professionally trained one in the right hands is much safer than one who bites out of fear..
> 
> Its still a toss up for me though....


I completely agree with you the ones that bite out of fear should be culled.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

After all that was how dogs became domesticated, only the friendlier ones were allowed to breed....


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

agreed with you both on this,the only down side to training the apbt for something like protection is sterotype involved with the dog....


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

ericschevy said:


> After all that was how dogs became domesticated, only the friendlier ones were allowed to breed....


nah,i dont think thats true[and also could be wrong].Wolves were domesticated through scavenging,basically being mooches.
then we selectivly bred them for what we desired,either as pets,fighters,guardians etc....
I dont believe humans only selected for the friendly of the friendly,we just manipulated them,and then bred for desired traits,jmo......


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

I don't think I will ever become a big fan of it, seems like they are too deep in to start this type of thing now...IMO :cheers:


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Are these dogs allowed to breed? Or does each generation have to be taught?


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

cane76 said:


> nah,i dont think thats true[and also could be wrong].Wolves were domesticated through scavenging,basically being mooches.
> then we selectivly bred them for what we desired,either as pets,fighters,guardians etc....
> I dont believe humans only selected for the friendly of the friendly,we just manipulated them,and then bred for desired traits,jmo......


Yeah, You could be right... Thing is it was way to long ago for anyone to truly know aint it? Are these things documented? The human friendly part, not being bred for traits...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

ericschevy said:


> Yeah, You could be right... Thing is it was way to long ago for anyone to truly know aint it? Are these things documented? The human friendly part, not being bred for traits...


Wild dogs are wild dogs,they are very sketchy,your not gonna find a wild dog with a lab temperment,it has to be bred for and selected for...
As for the pp dog being bred,some are bred and some arent,its the breeders choice.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

I totally love the idea of APBT being trained for protection and then the use of them in the police force. I believe that the stigma attached to the APBT would be lessened if this were the case. 

Didn't GSD also go through a time like the pitbull is now. Not the BSL but I remeber peole being affraid of them Dobies too. We the public overcame this fear and now GSD are used by police all over the country. Maybe this type of training could actually help the plight of the pitbull. my 2cents.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

I am personally against the use of APBTs in personal protection. However, sports such as Schutzhund and French Ring are a different story (So long as the dog is trained not in defense drive, but toy drive. It becomes a game for them). 

I do not believe an APBT is a breed meant to defend, it goes against the ideal temperament of the breed. Every truly sound representative of the breed I have met would merely lick the hand of the burgerler, including my own. Not to mention the fact that very few people are responsible enough to own an average bulldog, can you imagine a PP-trained dog in the hand of the average pit bull own (i.e., a moron)?

While some APBT's are excelling at the sport, I could never condone it. If you find a qualified trainer to work with (Unlike the majority of them out there) then perhaps I would be less apt to judge.

Mikado, APBT's are being utilized in the police force. Diane Jessup founded LawDogs with just this purpose. But they are being used in a way that promotes a true and positive image of the breed, as detection dogs. 

Very few GSDs are qualified to make it as the stereotypical police dog, finding an APBT fit the purpose would be like finding a needle in a haystack.


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## MY MIKADO (Apr 7, 2006)

Very few GSDs are qualified to make it as the stereotypical police dog, finding an APBT fit the purpose would be like finding a needle in a haystack.

I live in a three county area and we have aleast 2 GSD at every police station. The biggest county has 3 GSD dogs. 

I know about Daine Jessup I think she is doing a great job with the image of the APBT. I don't think that it would be any harder to find APBT's for police work then it would be the GSD.


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

I'd talk to Jessup, she posts actively on a board I'm on. I could PM you the URL if you aren't already a member. She's been hard-pressed to find good detection dogs in rescue, and made a purchase from a (great) kennel in hopes to get a good prospect. 

My police force has GSDs too, as well as a few Rotties. But after talking to a trainer, he said they have to sift through many dogs to find the good ones.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

I know most apbt people consider these dogs worthless mutts,but here a link to apbt/neo cross, nero's page,hes just been accepted into the k9 police training in south africa,!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://clintoncilliers.blogspot.com/


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

I don't consider bandogs worthless. I looked into purchasing one a while back, but could not find a breeder who met all my criteria.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> I'd talk to Jessup, she posts actively on a board I'm on. I could PM you the URL if you aren't already a member. She's been hard-pressed to find good detection dogs in rescue, and made a purchase from a (great) kennel in hopes to get a good prospect.
> 
> My police force has GSDs too, as well as a few Rotties. But after talking to a trainer, he said they have to sift through many dogs to find the good ones.


As with any work that requires extreme ability and temperment,not all dogs will be cut out for it[police work].It dosent matter what breed is being trained for it,few will make the grade...
for Anyone interested in good info on the protection and the apbt id have to advise contacting leri hanson,she seems to be at the top of the game with these dogs,and has more titled apbts than anyone else in the world in work which says alot....
http://www.ca-k9services.com/about.html


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> I don't consider bandogs worthless. I looked into purchasing one a while back, but could not find a breeder who met all my criteria.


?what was your criteria?


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

cane76 said:


> ?what was your criteria?


Full health testing (including hips, heart, and elbows) was the biggest reason I didn't make a purchase.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

joe lucero's kennel would of met your criteria,but would of been next to impossable to obtain a dog from him with out a refrence i believe...


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

I have references from various vets and bulldog breeders, but the harder to obtain a pup, the better IMO.

But I've got a full house now and won't be looking at other breeds for a while. Besides, I've got this for a yard guard:










ETA- Cane, do you have a link to his kennel?


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

hehe,scary.....:clap:


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