# Dog aggression, is that genetic tendency essential to the spirit of the pit bull?



## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

I fear this is an irritating question to those who just want the APBT in particular to be respected for who he is, and cared for responsibly. But I'm still learning who he is, and I'm interested in your opinion, even if you're irritated by the question. 

For those who do not want the sport of dog fighting to continue, and I hope that's all of us around here, why would we not want to see dog aggression bred out of the pit bull? Hog hunting and other prey drive is useful for a working dog, but dog aggression is not married to that instinct, is it? What would be lost if breeders endeavored to select non DA dogs for breeding?

Thanks for helping me in my ongoing journey to plumb the mystery of the pit bull.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Then it will no longer be an American Pit bull Terrier. When one breeds out the traits these dogs were bred for, you change the breed. That is pretty much what an American Staffordshire terrier is...

Dog aggression is just part of their traits. Many terrier breeds have dog and animal aggression. The American Pit bull Terrier was bred for GAMENESS, which can't be proven by simply hog hunting, etc.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Then it will no longer be an American Pit bull Terrier..When one breeds out the traits these dogs were bred for, you change the breed.


But they were originally bred to control the butchers' bulls, and then baiting bulls for sport. They seem to have that still in the genes (which I say based for example on pics of pits randomly encountering a bull post-Hurricane Katrina, a sad article here about a pit in Golden Gate Park attacking a mounted police horse, and my foster pooch's deer lust). Not sure what the loss would be, if they could be bred without dog aggression. Do high prey-drive dogs, tend to be more dog aggressive? That sound plausible. Then it would follow that eliminating dog aggression would eliminate drive/prey drive.



::::COACH:::: said:


> That is pretty much what an American Staffordshire terrier is...


How does the AmStaff temperament differ from the APBT. Milder, less prey-drive, less drive for work of all kinds?



::::COACH:::: said:


> The American Pit bull Terrier was bred for GAMENESS, which can't be proven by simply hog hunting, etc.


Hmm. You're suggesting what? Dog aggression is a necessary prerequisite to gameness, which can only be proved through dog fighting? That even today, dog fighting is the only definition of gameness? How would anyone ever know the gameness of their pit bull, without engaging in what I think we agree is a wrong and cruel sport? (Not that my angel wouldn't want to do it, anyway.) And if the ability to kill or try to kill another dog no matter what, is really the only definition of gameness, why would we want that for any dog? Unless it brings with it other gifts, that are better put to the test.

A dog who eagerly pulls, competes in agility, or lure-courses, or hunts 1000 lb wild boars, that's got to show some kind of game. Why would we want to keep their identity as dog fighters, instead of channeling that drive into less cruel and more legal/useful directions? And as I asked, would reducing DA reduce all drive, does it all go in one package? How much is known, and how much is speculation?

Thank you for indulging me.


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

Pit Bulls have already been bred away from gameness, with other standards in mind... they call them AmStaffs


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

pittieparty said:


> But they were originally bred to control the butchers' bulls, and then baiting bulls for sport. They seem to have that still in the genes (which I say based for example on pics of pits randomly encountering a bull post-Hurricane Katrina, a sad article here about a pit in Golden Gate Park attacking a mounted police horse, and my foster pooch's deer lust). Not sure what the loss would be, if they could be bred without dog aggression. Do high prey-drive dogs, tend to be more dog aggressive? That sound plausible. Then it would follow that eliminating dog aggression would eliminate drive/prey drive.
> 
> How does the AmStaff temperament differ from the APBT. Milder, less prey-drive, less drive for work of all kinds?
> 
> ...


How is hog hunting any less cruel? I assure you that there are not two willing participants in that "sport" LOL. Gameness is defined in the pit. Identity as "dog fighters"? What do think their heritage suggests? You do realize that the word "pit" is in the breed name? Bottom line....change the dog = change the breed. Everyone has opinions on dog fighting, and that is fine, but you seem to be one of these people who want to forget how these dogs came about....and reinvent their history. You don't have to like their dog fighting background, but you can not deny it. The true APBT is not for everyone. A lot of people need to understand that, and it certainly would be better for the breed.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I think it is an interesting question and one a lot of modern breeders struggle with. Trying to create a place for these dogs in a crowded world while being true to their origins.

Some adhere strictly to dog aggression as vital to the breed. They pick their keeper pups based on which ones show the most fire, even though that doesn't speak as to how game they will be at maturity. Others have very "cold" lines and are happier that way, even go so far as speak down about their more scrappy counterparts. I don't think either one is right.

My opinion is that dog aggression is not _vital_ to the breed, but it is a part of their nature. I do not want to see dog aggression intentionally bred out, but I do believe that if it is not specifically selected for, it will slowly return to a more normal level on its own. For me, the most desirable animal is one that doesn't hone in and attack non-threatening dogs, but turns into a beast when challenged. So the screamer that wants to grab everything doesn't hold any appeal to me. Give me the silent watcher/waiter. Lol! To my mind, a truly confident dog knows they don't need to make threat displays at everything.

That said, if I was planning a breeding and the very best dog for mine was a screamer, I wouldn't rule them out. But since some of the sports I like to do involve my dog being able to operate with other dogs in the vicinity, it does mean that a highly DA dog might not be the best choice for producing my next competitor.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

BCdogs said:


> Pit Bulls have already been bred away from gameness, with other standards in mind... they call them AmStaffs


AmStaffs were bred for "conformation". Doesn't that mean appearance, rather than skills...am I right about that? Therefore, they would lose a lot of qualities besides DA.

Are AmStaffs significantly less DA than APBTs?


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

Saint Francis said:


> How is hog hunting any less cruel? I assure you that there are not two willing participants in that "sport" LOL.


I am naive, I thought of it as utilitarian, since wild hogs are a problem. Not sport for the sake of killing any more than hunting deer for food. Didn't think about it being unnecessary, since there are probably better ways to control the wild hog population than use dogs?



Saint Francis said:


> Gameness is defined in the pit.


My instinctive sense of reason sides with Diane Jessup.
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup
"...the fact is ONLY the pit bull is capable of this kind of courage and determination. It takes a special kind of guts for a dog to continue to cross the pit into the face of death when being out fought and destroyed by another dog. But that is the heritage of the pit bull - to win or 'lose right'.

"But does gameness only refer to the actions of an animal fighting for its life? And specifically a dog fighting another dog of the same weight? Or does gameness have a broader meaning?"

She goes on to suggest that it does have a broader meaning.

But it still begs the question from you, why would you want a "game" dog, so narrowly defined, one that will kill another dog or die trying? Is it for that, or is it for the spirit of the dog that comes with that? If it is for the spirit of the dog that comes with that, rather than for the ability/compulsion to kill another dog, then why resist defining the "gameness" of the dog through other, less destructive/more useful ways?



Saint Francis said:


> Identity as "dog fighters"? What do think their heritage suggests? You do realize that the word "pit" is in the breed name? Bottom line....change the dog = change the breed. Everyone has opinions on dog fighting, and that is fine, but you seem to be one of these people who want to forget how these dogs came about....and reinvent their history. You don't have to like their dog fighting background, but you can not deny it.


I don't know what I said to make you think I want to forget or reinvent their history. It is choices being made for their future I'm trying to understand. How dog aggression serves the dog or serves owners, in the absence of the sport of dog fighting. Dog fighting as a sport still exists, so those who want to fight dogs have reason to preserve that instinct in the dog. But otherwise, is it essential to the spirit of the pit bull, and why, that is what I wonder.



Saint Francis said:


> The true APBT is not for everyone. A lot of people need to understand that, and it certainly would be better for the breed.


I believe I addressed this sentiment in my opening sentence of my original post. (Pretty sure--can't see it right now!) And I agree with you. On that. But it does not address my query.

I know why I love my boy. I know why he's a challenge. I'm fostering him for someone who can't take care of him right now, or I'd have done away with his testicles, and that might help some. If I chose a dog to spend his life with me, it would not be a dog aggressive one, or one who tends to growl at people when we're on the sidewalk outside our home. Or at other odd times. But we share deep love, a bond that goes back a millenium to my ancestors, I suppose. We are a unit. He is devoted to me, I correct him and watch out for him and provide the best leadership I can, based on what I learn and glean. I didn't ask for him in my life, but he has certainly changed it, and I'm not sorry.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

bahamutt99 said:


> I think it is an interesting question and one a lot of modern breeders struggle with. Trying to create a place for these dogs in a crowded world while being true to their origins.
> 
> Some adhere strictly to dog aggression as vital to the breed. They pick their keeper pups based on which ones show the most fire, even though that doesn't speak as to how game they will be at maturity. Others have very "cold" lines and are happier that way, even go so far as speak down about their more scrappy counterparts. I don't think either one is right.
> 
> ...


bahamamutt99, thank you for this balanced and thoughtful report. Exactly speaks to what I would better understand.



bahamutt99 said:


> Trying to create a place for these dogs in a crowded world while being true to their origins.


 Yes, exactly.



bahamutt99 said:


> Others have very "cold" lines and are happier that way, even go so far as speak down about their more scrappy counterparts.


So, would these dogs still compete well in dog sports, or would they have less drive overall? How would their personalities differ from other lines? Are these dogs more like...pause, pulls away head, pinches nose...American Staffordshire Terriers?



bahamutt99 said:


> I do not want to see dog aggression intentionally bred out, but I do believe that if it is not specifically selected for, it will slowly return to a more normal level on its own.


 Okay, interesting.



bahamutt99 said:


> For me, the most desirable animal is one that doesn't hone in and attack non-threatening dogs, but turns into a beast when challenged...To my mind, a truly confident dog knows they don't need to make threat displays at everything.


I have long avoided mid-sized and up male dogs who looked like they might not be submissive enough. But I erred in my management, and he started two fights. Now I'm afraid any accidental meeting with a big dog could go badly.
Little dogs, even with little intact testicles, are given a free pass, like cats, always amusing. So far, anyway. But I avoid them, too. He's forgotten how to play without being a bully, and I sensed the possibility of predatory drift with running dogs even before I found it defined on the internet. I was always nervous around other dogs (though I strove to project calm control, of course). He's really not that bad, and he mostly minds his mama. But a powerful dog like this must ALWAYS mind his mama in certain circumstances, or she can never trust him and she must always make sure he doesn't cost her another $450 in vet bills (for the other dog), or $700 for stitches in her hand (from the other dog in another fight). Many dogs I grew up with (a long, long time ago), I never had these worries, never tense or overprotective. With my new dog-of-dogs, I've always felt like I didn't know what could happen, and I couldn't understand why I never worried about all those shephard mutts and Dobermans of my youth, they ran everywhere with any dog. But not my pit, I watch him like a hawk. So I wonder. I love him, and I wonder about him.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Well you seem to have your idea of what an APBT should be like so I'm not going to continue to go in circles as our opinions differ. A dog doesn't have to be snarling nonstop at every dog it sees. Plenty of those can be snapping curs. A cold dog and a cur are not the same thing. A cold dog can be game... Each APBT is different. Some don't like any dog, others are fine with the select few or those they don't deem a threat. 

Anyway....there's the end of my two cents


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

pittieparty said:


> AmStaffs were bred for "conformation". Doesn't that mean appearance, rather than skills...am I right about that? Therefore, they would lose a lot of qualities besides DA.
> 
> Are AmStaffs significantly less DA than APBTs?


AmStaffs are still functional dogs. Sure, some of them are really overdone and yes, conformation is important, but they should still be able to excel in sports and physical activities, and they're still terriers (and a bull breed). As a whole, yes, I'd say they're less DA, but that doesn't mean it doesn't show up with them too. They're just not bred with gameness in mind as many APBTs still are, and when you purposely take that trait away, it's no longer an APBT in my opinion. And that's not to say that a cold dog isn't an APBT. But why change the breed when there are others that already fit the bill.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

pittieparty said:


> So, would these dogs still compete well in dog sports, or would they have less drive overall? How would their personalities differ from other lines? Are these dogs more like...pause, pulls away head, pinches nose...American Staffordshire Terriers?


I don't know enough true AmStaffs to say. Most of them I've only met through a computer screen.

Dog aggression does not equal drive to work. It gets in the way of many kinds of work which require a dog to ignore other dogs. Very DA or dog-reactive dogs, unless impeccably well-trained -- do their work on-leash, which rules out competition obedience, agility, Schutzhund, etc. Sometimes you can direct that intensity to another target, such as when I take my feisty little shit lure coursing. As long as she is on that lure, she is fine. I protect the finish line from interlopers and grab her when she's done.

I have another dog that is not as intense, and she is dog-appropriate. It's nice. I don't have to have my adrenaline spike just because another dog comes over and sniffs her. She throws down when she has to. I'm okay with that. She is probably going to be the only agility and advanced obedience dog I will have for a while. I just won't put others' dogs at risk by having a hotter dog off leash.

But no, to go back, dog aggression does not equal working drive. You can have one, the other, or both. The tendency to call pit dogs working dogs is confusing for those who think of work in the sense of recognized sports, hunting or service dog tasks. To those that like the former, that is the only true work.


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## dakar (Mar 15, 2015)

Regarding Amstaff, I can tell you about my 3 Amstaff. I will separate one of them, to talk about. 

Big Blue.: A 5 years old Amstaff. Extremely intense. Lives at my farm. Hunts when is hungry, usually chase the cows (all day long running or walking). He loves to do things, that I consider amazing (swim, run, hunt, fight). He is very intense and gameness. 
Personality.: Well... he is friendly with me, my parents n law and people he knows, otherwise, very very aggressive. As we have others dogs, they found a way to live together, however, its like a unveiled frontier. "Dont cross to my side and I will not cross to yours." 

I have 2 more Amstaff living (travelling) to city and some days at the farm. My eldest (Rossi) needs exercises every day, otherwise he gets crazy. He is just 7 months, but its already in training and service working, because he liked mondioring and his trainer, introduce it to him, very early. 

Personality.: Extremely Stable at the point, the can turn the key to mode 1 or 2 without issues. I heard it from his trainers and others trainer at the last contest. Very obedient as well. If challenged, when alone, bite another dog. When we are walking together, he waits for a command. 

Foosah.: My youngest. He is clearly a company dog. me and his trainer, dont see him as a dog able to service or gameness. Very very Strong, however, a sissy in terms of gameness or other kind of service. 

I love APBT, however, in my country its impossible to buy an APBT without issues (physicals or mentals) and to import is getting very expensive in nowadays. 

I've decided to own Amstaff due to his mind stability (not saying that APBT is not stable) and how the things worked to me during the importation process.

If you are a novice owner, I would recommend you an Amstaff. If you love emotions and is very disciplined and a leader by nature, buy the APBT and be happy. 

Theres no good or bad dog. always depend what you are looking for. 

Hope that helps. 

Dakar


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

While I've not read all responses, I will go ahead and jump in this conversation, as well. Bahamutt touched on two variances of a game dog. I have those perfect examples. The white and tan dog in my signature (Ices) is the snarling, want to kill everything that moves type, while the little red one (Cookie) is the silent watcher/waiter. 

While I have to keep my dogs on a strict crate and rotate schedule because of Ices' "temperament", she is just as loving and cuddly and goofy with the human members of our pack as the other two are. 

Cookie is the golden child, so to speak. She is DA as well, ready to go at a moment's notice, but not without being provoked first. In fact, just this past Friday (two days ago), I went to Knoxville to meet up with our local Pit Bull Rescue group and we participated in a pack walk around Market Square with several other dogs, and she was an angel (I couldn't have done that with Ices with just a flat buckle collar and 4 ft leash). 

While I did not have a hand in the selection of how either of these dogs were bred, I wouldn't change anything about it if I were the one to do so. With that said, let me say that I am in no way, shape or form a breeder, nor do I wish to become one. Both my females are in tact. In addition to that, my mutt boy comes from the shelter (originally), and he is neutered; however, this doesn't have any affect on his DA what so ever! 

As was stated by many above, when you start selectively breeding out the traits which make these dogs who and what they are, you're essentially creating a different breed. There's just no two ways about it. While you can selectively breed for different temperament traits, as Bahamutt mentioned above, you don't want to completely breed out a certain trait, unless it's a genetic/medical issue. 

For example, I wouldn't want to breed for a more spindly, thinner tail that was set lower or higher on the rump, like that of say a whippet. I wouldn't want to breed for turned out elbows, or cow-hocked rear legs, but I would want to selectively breed out albinism or cardiac issues (those would be things you would want to stay away from). 

You're probably not going to find all the answers you want to read in the responses you'll receive on this topic, but that's why this is a discussion forum. 

Thank you for sparking a debate that should go over pretty smoothly. This should get interesting to see responses herein after.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

ThaLadyPit said:


> Thank you for sparking a debate that should go over pretty smoothly. This should get interesting to see responses herein after.


^This.

I think people who live the lifestyle tend to ignore the point that dog-aggression is a very real issue for many people. Dog aggression is not an issue for me because I set up my house to be fair to both my dogs and myself, and to keep them safe. Its easy to forget that for other people, the idea of having a dog that would kill other dogs around it is a huge deal-breaker.

One point on which we can all agree: _These dogs are not for everybody._

I think another point we can all agree upon: _We want these dogs to stay around for another millennia._

As to how we preserve the breed and translate their purpose into the modern day, that's where we will run into snags. But we should still be able to talk about it like adults. Everybody's idea of preservation is different. The Doberman people opted to mellow out their dogs' temperaments and go more into the conformation side of their breed. Keepers of other breeds have opted to take their dogs "off the radar" and keep breeding them in a small group without promoting them to the public. Which is more likely to meet a genetic dead end? I'm no expert, so I can't say.


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## dakar (Mar 15, 2015)

Baha,

An APBT, must be always a "psycho" apbt. This is what make them so unique and special.
Lower his temperament, in my opinion, its a crime !!!

We live in a world full of half truth, half demands, ppl over the fences and Mass hysteria.... (Soviets will kill us, now Arabs will kill us, now Pitbulls will kill us and son on).

We just need to simplify and stop to cover the truth. APBT is DA, yes.

Couple weeks ago visiting a friend in TX, I've seen an APBT and ask the guy if the dog is brave and his answer was : Oh, Uh, Nooooo! he is docile, more or less... so so... a kind of half pregnant... semi homossexual..., 50% mood.

Now I can understand where came from the acronym BSL, it comes from Bull shit...

Sorry If I used too many dirty words, unpolited examples and analogies that just make sense in french.

Best Regards,

Dakar



bahamutt99 said:


> ^This.
> 
> I think people who live the lifestyle tend to ignore the point that dog-aggression is a very real issue for many people. Dog aggression is not an issue for me because I set up my house to be fair to both my dogs and myself, and to keep them safe. Its easy to forget that for other people, the idea of having a dog that would kill other dogs around it is a huge deal-breaker.
> 
> ...


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

I disagree. Saying they must be "psycho" diminishes the contribution of level-headed game dogs. They may not have been many, but they are a part of the breed's history. A dog being over-the-top hot is not necessarily deep game or able. Many times, they are actually bluffing.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

::::COACH:::: said:


> Well you seem to have your idea of what an APBT should be like so I'm not going to continue to go in circles as our opinions differ.


I'm not qualified to have an opinion about what an APBT should be like. I'm wondering whether he needs the genetic of DA, to be who he is, whatever that is. Very interested in what others believe, and why. I think our big area of disagreement is about gameness, what should define it in a post-dogfighting-for-sport era, and I was looking forward to clarification from you. Sorry you feel we are going in circles. I'm interested in the whole discussion with you, because it's a world in which you have more experience and more basis for understanding than me. My unlearned bias will be towards the well-being of dogs and people, and I'm not sure how DA is good for either, so I'm seeking to understand.

As far as "what an APBT should be like", this is what the UKC says:

"The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed's natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.

"Disqualifications: Viciousness or extreme shyness."

My pup is aloof towards strangers, merely tolerates being pet, but growly and tense on the sidewalk when right in front of our house. Friendly-happy to people he knows, but scary when they first walk in the house. I realized recently, that may only be when he's with me in the house, which is most of the time; if he's alone when people come in, I believe he's calm-submissive, I'm going to test it more. I also discovered that when other people were helping me walk him (due to stitches and sprained fingers), he totally changed and became more relaxed and friendly to all people, even my creepy ex husband. Having lots of housemates and visitors isn't enough; it seems having other people walk and care for him is more effective socialization. He may have undesirable or uncharacteristic slightly unfriendly tendencies towards people, but under circumstances where I can possibly teach him better. The level of DA he has is fairly selective, not over-the-top, normal according to the UKC guidelines.

I'm entering into the land of dog psychology, and a deeper understanding of this breed. I want to understand who he is, and who APBTs are. So don't spare me your experience and opinions. Sorry if I make you grumpy!!



::::COACH:::: said:


> A dog doesn't have to be snarling nonstop at every dog it sees. Plenty of those can be snapping curs. A cold dog and a cur are not the same thing. A cold dog can be game... Each APBT is different. Some don't like any dog, others are fine with the select few or those they don't deem a threat.


"A cold dog can be game." A cold dog would be one who is not reactive to other dogs, but when push comes to shove, s/he ain't backing down? Kinda along the lines of bahamutt's comments. Just seems to me, that breeding for a cold dog with game, would be a good thing, with no downside to an APBT lover. You do appear to be suggesting that APBTs could be bred for less DA (is that fair to say, re: "cold"?), without losing game.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

BCdogs said:


> AmStaffs are still functional dogs. Sure, some of them are really overdone and yes, conformation is important, but they should still be able to excel in sports and physical activities, and they're still terriers (and a bull breed). As a whole, yes, I'd say they're less DA, but that doesn't mean it doesn't show up with them too. They're just not bred with gameness in mind as many APBTs still are, and when you purposely take that trait away, it's no longer an APBT in my opinion. And that's not to say that a cold dog isn't an APBT. But why change the breed when there are others that already fit the bill.


Sounds like you're saying a cold dog *could* still be game.

The reason for favoring gameness with less "heat" or reactivity (please correct me if I'm saying anything inaccurately), is to make it safer for these dogs to share the world with us. A better life for all. Why purposely allow a genetic for attacking other dogs unprovoked? How is this good for any of us? If it is not essential to their true spirit, their "strength, confidence, and zest for life...eager[ness] to please and brimming over with enthusiasm...[ability to do] very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work." UKC

Why change the breed, is because I stayed up too late reading hate-pitbull sites, about a pit flying off a balcony to attack a leashed dog and put the owner in the hospital, or the raised-from-puppy pits that knocked their owner down to eat the baby in her arms, and that wasn't even about dog aggression (sorry for that graphic), and with nightmarish memories of my precious pup trying to eat the face off a giant American bulldog, I just really got to wondering. (I've gotten chewed on in two dog fights so far.) How is this breed being stewarded--poorly by the back yard breeders, no doubt--but what about the knowledgeable, responsible breeders? What is the goal, nowadays, and why? What is causing this breed to have such a hard life in this world, and to be accused of so much harm to us? So many pits languishing in shelters and being euthanized because they are not considered fit pets, except by some of the most unfit owners. It's a much bigger subject than DA, of course. But DA is a dangerous characteristic, and I want to understand if it is necessary to the spirit of the breed. If it is not, there's plenty good reason to encourage it to fall away.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

bahamutt99 said:


> I don't know enough true AmStaffs to say. Most of them I've only met through a computer screen.
> 
> Dog aggression does not equal drive to work. It gets in the way of many kinds of work which require a dog to ignore other dogs. Very DA or dog-reactive dogs, unless impeccably well-trained -- do their work on-leash, which rules out competition obedience, agility, Schutzhund, etc. Sometimes you can direct that intensity to another target, such as when I take my feisty little shit lure coursing. As long as she is on that lure, she is fine. I protect the finish line from interlopers and grab her when she's done.
> 
> ...


It's easier, more pleasant, and allows for more opportunities, to have a less DA dog. You do not feel that DA comes part-and-parcel with drive, at least when the work is sports, hunting, or service dog tasks. And in fact, it can get in the way.

So I wouldn't know why breeders wouldn't prefer to select for less DA.

How do you feel about defining gameness through sports or other work? Is it a contradiction, or is it fitting for a new world where the sport of dog fighting has no place?

Breeding for less dog aggression might lead to less abuse by illegal fighters. Backyard breeding will continue. But it couldn't hurt to introduce more pit bulls who aren't DA.

Just thoughts, rumbling around like rocks in my head.:roll:


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

dakar said:


> Regarding Amstaff, I can tell you about my 3 Amstaff. I will separate one of them, to talk about.
> 
> Big Blue.: A 5 years old Amstaff. Extremely intense. Lives at my farm. Hunts when is hungry, usually chase the cows (all day long running or walking). He loves to do things, that I consider amazing (swim, run, hunt, fight). He is very intense and gameness.
> Personality.: Well... he is friendly with me, my parents n law and people he knows, otherwise, very very aggressive. As we have others dogs, they found a way to live together, however, its like a unveiled frontier. "Dont cross to my side and I will not cross to yours."
> ...


Your pups run a range of personalities, as I'm sure APBTs can. They are close cousins, after all. Big Blue sounds a bit like my precious one. I'm glad he manages to not be aggressive towards your other dogs, but it sounds like it's a little dicey. And what do you mean, he chases cows?!! They are not that fast, what does he do when he gets close? I'm convinced mine would revert to his bull-baiting ancestry in an instant. Today, he was at my sister's farm for the first time, and I was finally able to give him an introduction, instead of just listening to him cry about it, seeing cows in the countryside from the car. I had him on heel, made him sit. Talked to him, and the cows. Then a dang cow walked up to us, bent down to sniff his nose. (I regretted you gopitbull people talked me out of a muzzle!) They sniffed, and he did lunge, but I had him good and the cows were not freaked out, but I know what he would do, left to his own devices!

Really, AmStaffs are not SO different from APBTs? And all dogs are unique, anyway.

"If you love emotions and is very disciplined and a leader by nature, buy the APBT and be happy." My boy is so devoted and adorable and glorious. I am proud of what I have achieved with him, though I didn't want a dog, he isn't mine, I never knew how long I would have him, and I was disorganized in my inexperienced approach...yet we are a team, and I get compliments frequently, asking me how he got so well trained. I feel a flush of pride, then I cringe, remembering how powerless I was, twice, to stop him from attacking a dog. (At least he didn't chomp a cow's nose today.):hammer:

Thanks for sharing about your pack. It sounds like a beautiful family, with a very good leader!


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

ThaLadyPit said:


> While I've not read all responses, I will go ahead and jump in this conversation, as well. Bahamutt touched on two variances of a game dog. I have those perfect examples. The white and tan dog in my signature (Ices) is the snarling, want to kill everything that moves type, while the little red one (Cookie) is the silent watcher/waiter.
> 
> While I have to keep my dogs on a strict crate and rotate schedule because of Ices' "temperament", she is just as loving and cuddly and goofy with the human members of our pack as the other two are.
> 
> ...


"While you can selectively breed for different temperament traits, as Bahamutt mentioned above, you don't want to completely breed out a certain trait, unless it's a genetic/medical issue."

Continuing my line of questioning (with the persistence of a bulldog, it seems ;-) ), why would you not want to breed out a trait that brings difficulty and danger to the life of dogs and humans? I would consider that as important as a medical issue.

"As was stated by many above, when you start selectively breeding out the traits which make these dogs who and what they are, you're essentially creating a different breed."

Does DA make these dogs who and what they are? That's not what I'm hearing on this thread. If you can have a "cold" fighter, a dog who has true game, in the pit, then is DA really a necessary part of who a pit bull is? Though it has no place today--I think we all agree on that--pit fighting made the APBT who he is. He was bred to be fearless, athletic, powerful, intelligent, fierce in the pit, loyal and obedient to his people. Yet I hear on this thread, that "heat" and reactivity, that dog aggression itself is not required to have game, or be a true APBT.



bahamutt99 said:


> My opinion is that dog aggression is not _vital_ to the breed...I do believe that if it is not specifically selected for, it will slowly return to a more normal level on its own.





::::COACH:::: said:


> A cold dog can be game... Each APBT is different.





BCdogs said:


> And that's not to say that a cold dog isn't an APBT.





bahamutt99 said:


> Dog aggression does not equal drive to work. It gets in the way...
> to go back, dog aggression does not equal working drive. You can have one, the other, or both..


So really, what would we lose? It sounds like the defining spirit of the pit bull, his game, could remain.

"You're probably not going to find all the answers you want to read in the responses you'll receive on this topic, but that's why this is a discussion forum."

What I want to read, is what people have to say; it is the discussion I'm interested in. I can't see how dog aggression serves a good life for dogs or people, so I want it explained to me, and I want to question it until I understand all sides better. Like you, I hope for more (meaning continued) interesting responses.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

bahamutt99 said:


> I disagree. Saying they must be "psycho" diminishes the contribution of level-headed game dogs. They may not have been many, but they are a part of the breed's history. A dog being over-the-top hot is not necessarily deep game or able. Many times, they are actually bluffing.


I read Floyd Boudreaux' account of (quoting from memory) "the smartest or best? dog he ever had", a bitch who he could call from the pit to sit beside him, then he'd tell her to go back in, and she'd jump in and rip it up again. I think she was one of his few house dogs. She was perhaps an example of a "cold" fighter?


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## dakar (Mar 15, 2015)

pittieparty said:


> What I want to read, is what people have to say; it is the discussion I'm interested in. I can't see how dog aggression serves a good life for dogs or people, so I want it explained to me, and I want to question it until I understand all sides better. Like you, I hope for more (meaning continued) interesting responses.


Well... this answer is probably subjective...

In my case, for what I need, DA is mandatory, because would be impossible to create this "temperament" and automatic behavior in a dog. Ok, you can say that you can provide training to the dog, however, its not the same.

I need this *spirit* in my dogs that arent APBT, but, they arent "conformed" as others said before.

Maybe (BIG MAYBE) not all APBT are DA or even close to that, but that stick saying that it could be, should be part of the packaged.

BTW, God Save the APBTs.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

pittieparty said:


> Continuing my line of questioning (with the persistence of a bulldog, it seems ;-) ), *why would you not want to breed out a trait that brings difficulty and danger to the life of dogs and humans?* I would consider that as important as a medical issue.


I don't normally tend to entertain questions beginning with another question, but, can you please explain to us how you feel DA in a dog is a danger to the breed and humans? I can understand how it can be difficult for an uneducated, or irresponsible owner, but for the experienced handlers/owners out here, I don't. We have no control over all the BYB's out here breeding anything and everything they see, creating unstable dogs with very poor genetics and irresponsible owners getting them and not restraining or confining them properly.

Why so much interest in changing the breed? What is it about a dog being DA that you dislike so much to cause you to pose these questions in the first place?


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## PittyChick (Apr 10, 2015)

I am not a breeder and I have petbulls mostly rescued. So, I can't really give too much input as far as breeding the DA out of apbts. I do want to share my experiences and observation. I work with dogs for a living and have had 17 pound pit bull type dogs.

I've met quite a few am staffs (several show dogs) and a few game dogs while I was in the south for a bit. So I've been on the outside looking into the two groups. I will say from what I've experienced there's quite a difference between the two as far as personality/activity level.I personally much prefer the APBT to the Am staffs. The APBT were much more driven, enthusiastic, seemed much more in tune to their owners while still being friendly with outsiders, and just exuberant/happy dogs. The Am staffs were all nice, sweet dogs just with everything toned down (a lot), and were more interested in other people, and other things going on rather than being tuned into their owners. It's hard to put into words all of the subtle differences. Some of the Am Staffs were DA some were not.

Now looking at the pit bull type dogs (could be mixed but most fit in the adba standard) I've rescued almost all fit closer to the APBT personality. However, with that said some were dog selective, and two were very DA, but most were very dog appropriate. Most went on to do some sort of sport and excelled. while all of that is not a test of gameness, and I'll never know if any were it makes me believe that the drive and personality may not be directly linked to DA and that with VERY selective and careful breeding you can keep intact everything (looks and personality) but the DA and not turn them into Amstaffs. I could be completely wrong, again I'm not a breeder, nor do I own tightly bred apbts. It's just my observation. 

And just a note while we're talking about DA (or lack there of), while most of my dogs never had an incident with another dog they were never left alone with another dog unsupervised. You never know. I always expect DA to show up wIth any of these dogs, that way I'm pleasantly surprised when it doesn't. I still recommend precautions.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

the breed does not need change. nor should it be changed.
humans need and should change their "pet" selection criteria. and choose appropriately.
we can go round and round about dog aggression all day. but if you want a dog to perform a task i'm 100% positive a breed has already been perfected for that task. choose that dog.
if i were in the drive thru at In-n-Out (5 Guys or White Castle for all you weirdos lol) and i order a double cheeseburger, but instead of beef give me chicken, and instead of buns give me a tortilla. guess what? i don't actually want a cheeseburger. what i really want is a damn chicken burrito and i'm looking in the wrong place.


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## Bambi121814 (May 4, 2015)

So happy to have her as a new member born on on my bday I was drawn to her instantly... I was told she's a blue fawn but I not really sure ??? Answers please


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

pittieparty said:


> Sounds like you're saying a cold dog *could* still be game.
> 
> The reason for favoring gameness with less "heat" or reactivity (please correct me if I'm saying anything inaccurately), is to make it safer for these dogs to share the world with us. A better life for all. Why purposely allow a genetic for attacking other dogs unprovoked? How is this good for any of us? If it is not essential to their true spirit, their "strength, confidence, and zest for life...eager[ness] to please and brimming over with enthusiasm...[ability to do] very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work." UKC
> 
> Why change the breed, is because I stayed up too late reading hate-pitbull sites, about a pit flying off a balcony to attack a leashed dog and put the owner in the hospital, or the raised-from-puppy pits that knocked their owner down to eat the baby in her arms, and that wasn't even about dog aggression (sorry for that graphic), and with nightmarish memories of my precious pup trying to eat the face off a giant American bulldog, I just really got to wondering. (I've gotten chewed on in two dog fights so far.) How is this breed being stewarded--poorly by the back yard breeders, no doubt--but what about the knowledgeable, responsible breeders? What is the goal, nowadays, and why? What is causing this breed to have such a hard life in this world, and to be accused of so much harm to us? So many pits languishing in shelters and being euthanized because they are not considered fit pets, except by some of the most unfit owners. It's a much bigger subject than DA, of course. But DA is a dangerous characteristic, and I want to understand if it is necessary to the spirit of the breed. If it is not, there's plenty good reason to encourage it to fall away.


Well, for one, dog aggression is only "dangerous" when it's improperly managed. It's entirely possible for a DA dog to never have the opportunity to get into a fight, and responsible owners manage to do so every single day.

Second, dog aggression and human aggression are completely separate traits, so it's inappropriate to even use them in the same example. I doubt you'll find anyone here who would condone human aggression in ANY APBT, and any dog showing that trait should be euthanized, in my opinion.

Finally, there are not tons of Pit Bulls in shelters, there are tons of mutts. Barring dogs seized in dogfighting busts and the occasional surrender or small seizure, 99% of the " Pit Bulls" in shelters are not Pit Bulls at all, and the real ones are euthanized instead of adopted out. The APBT world is smaller than most people think. There are a lot less real APBTs than there are mutts, and the worlds and pretty separate, to be honest. Any good APBT breeder is extremely careful who they place their dogs with and will try their best to ensure they don't end up in a shelter or with someone lacking the knowledge to raise and manage them responsibly. Sure, there will always be unethical breeders, but there are way less unethical breeders in the APBT world than there are in the bully mutt/American Bully world.

I don't think DA makes a dog not fit for being a pet. My dog is DA and I wouldn't trade him for a dog-friendly dog if you paid me. He's also never been in a fight and never will.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

ThaLadyPit said:


> I don't normally tend to entertain questions beginning with another question, but, can you please explain to us how you feel DA in a dog is a danger to the breed and humans? I can understand how it can be difficult for an uneducated, or irresponsible owner, but for the experienced handlers/owners out here, I don't.


If pit bulls need to be managed differently, more carefully than other breeds, then they are inherently more dangerous. Right? Which makes me wonder why would BSL not be appropriate, then. Like the vet shouting at me, "I will not treat another pit bull of yours! Pit bulls are not pets!" (I found a big ol' horse of a sweetheart white pit on the streets of Chicago, but in the process of rehoming him, he had a couple Cujo-looking brain seizures and the vet was scared to put the needle in him when I reconciled myself to put him down. Don't know why he was mad at me for my other foster.) I hear from this forum as well, most people just shouldn't have them, they are not fit pets for most people. If only we could sweep up all the back yards breeding them into ignorant hands.

As for the inherent danger of DA, I gave an extreme example of a pit jumping off a second floor balcony to attack a leashed dog and put it's owner in the hospital. That constitutes danger to dogs, the breed in general, and humans. It's an obvious greater risk, and the stories abound, told and retold by those who would outlaw the breed. A hate site I was looking at referred to the "zero margin of error" for owners of pit bulls. They have all these stories of direct human aggression, too. That veers sharply from the UKC description of temperament, and so must be explained by:


ThaLadyPit said:


> ...all the BYB's ...creating unstable dogs with very poor genetics


 Not much to be done about that, but educate, and keep good, true pits breeding to represent. As a newly born lover of the dog, I seek to understand what is the true spirit of the pit bull, does it exist without DA. You blame


ThaLadyPit said:


> irresponsible owners getting them and not restraining or confining them properly.


A Chihuahua, as ill tempered as they often are, is not as likely to seriously harm/kill a person or a dog. Because of their size and power, it would seem helpful for pit bulls to not have the inherent danger of dog aggression. Obvious concerns. So I wondered if they would lose spirit and unique qualities overall, were they lose dog aggression.



ThaLadyPit said:


> Why so much interest in changing the breed? What is it about a dog being DA that you dislike so much to cause you to pose these questions in the first place?


I don't know why anyone would prefer to have a DA dog. Can't go places, gotta worry and watch him, can't do certain sports, etc. Quality of life goes down for dog and owner. (Not saying you can't have a great life with a DA dog, not saying that.) But greater risk often results in suffering to all concerned. The breed fills shelters that will take them, die or get adopted by unknowledgeable people (like me, due to extenuating circumstances). DA seems a big part of his challenge to get by in this world. But I am willing to be persuaded that it is part of who the pit bull is, and you can't lose it without losing him.

Until I came to this forum, I did not know that pit bulls are genetically inclined to dog aggressive. I thought they were taught to fight, not that it was born into them. Kinda dumb, huh. Despite all the reading I've done in the last year, since it started raining pit bulls, I just didn't get that. It was a big relief to hear it and accept it. Now I'm just trying to understand more.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

dakar said:


> Well... this answer is probably subjective...
> 
> In my case, for what I need, DA is mandatory, because would be impossible to create this "temperament" and automatic behavior in a dog...
> I need this *spirit* in my dogs...
> ...


Thanks for explaining, Dakar. Sounds like you do allow for the possibility of real spirit, without DA, but don't want it messed with. A sentiment I can understand!



PittyChick said:


> I am not a breeder and I have petbulls mostly rescued. So, I can't really give too much input as far as breeding the DA out of apbts. I do want to share my experiences and observation. I work with dogs for a living and have had 17 pound pit bull type dogs.
> 
> I've met quite a few am staffs (several show dogs) and a few game dogs while I was in the south for a bit. So I've been on the outside looking into the two groups. I will say from what I've experienced there's quite a difference between the two as far as personality/activity level.I personally much prefer the APBT to the Am staffs. The APBT were much more driven, enthusiastic, seemed much more in tune to their owners while still being friendly with outsiders, and just exuberant/happy dogs. The Am staffs were all nice, sweet dogs just with everything toned down (a lot), and were more interested in other people, and other things going on rather than being tuned into their owners. It's hard to put into words all of the subtle differences. Some of the Am Staffs were DA some were not.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your experience and pondering.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

JoKealoha said:


> the breed does not need change. nor should it be changed.
> humans need and should change their "pet" selection criteria. and choose appropriately.
> we can go round and round about dog aggression all day. but if you want a dog to perform a task i'm 100% positive a breed has already been perfected for that task. choose that dog.
> if i were in the drive thru at In-n-Out (5 Guys or White Castle for all you weirdos lol) and i order a double cheeseburger, but instead of beef give me chicken, and instead of buns give me a tortilla. guess what? i don't actually want a cheeseburger. what i really want is a damn chicken burrito and i'm looking in the wrong place.


I wouldn't intentionally choose a DA dog, and I'm clear about that. If people like having DA dogs, I'm no one to argue about it when they're managed responsibly. I just wondered if it was essential to the spirit of the pit bull, since not all of them have it. And I don't know what "task" it could be useful for, unless it is married to the pit bull's spirit.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

BCdogs said:


> Second, dog aggression and human aggression are completely separate traits, so it's inappropriate to even use them in the same example.


My bad, agreed. I was up late reading scary things.  The way everyone here says that DA can show up without warning, the scary hate sites tell stories of sudden tragic human aggression, and they mix up the DA and HA together. Humans getting critically wounded in dog-on-dog attacks. My pooch never bit me when I dove in to rip him out of a fight, but the other dogs did. (PS one fight was due to immense irresponsibility on my part, the other not so much, though lesson learned.) (Also, I've learned more about how to break up a fight, and I hope I never need to use it.)



BCdogs said:


> Finally, there are not tons of Pit Bulls in shelters, there are tons of mutts. Barring dogs seized in dogfighting busts and the occasional surrender or small seizure, 99% of the " Pit Bulls" in shelters are not Pit Bulls at all, and the real ones are euthanized instead of adopted out. The APBT world is smaller than most people think. There are a lot less real APBTs than there are mutts, and the worlds and pretty separate, to be honest. Any good APBT breeder is extremely careful who they place their dogs with and will try their best to ensure they don't end up in a shelter or with someone lacking the knowledge to raise and manage them responsibly. Sure, there will always be unethical breeders, but there are way less unethical breeders in the APBT world than there are in the bully mutt/American Bully world.


You are saying pit bull mutts and bully breeds, not full APBTs, are the dogs of the horror stories. And they are poorly bred, or there would be no human aggression. My pooch is a tad disturbing with strangers, but you'd never convince me he would do me harm.


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## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

I'm not saying there aren't HA APBTs, I'm just saying that 99% of dogs in shelters are mutts, and 99% of attacks on humans are from mutts. There's no actual evidence of how many were true APBTs because the media calls them all Pit Bulls, but I'd bet just about anything there are very, very few involved in these attacks. 

All said and done, seems like you already have your opinion, so I'm not sure why you're asking these questions when you just argue our answers with "they are dangerous" and "it has no purpose". That's your opinion, we get it. Notice how nobody else is troubled by DA because it's a complete nonissue for all of us here that have DA dogs. You don't need to fix what isn't broken.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

pittieparty said:


> I wouldn't intentionally choose a DA dog, and I'm clear about that. If people like having DA dogs, I'm no one to argue about it when they're managed responsibly. I just wondered if it was essential to the spirit of the pit bull, since not all of them have it. And I don't know what "task" it could be useful for, unless it is married to the pit bull's spirit.


Okay, you say you wouldn't intentionally choose a DA dog, but you also say you now understand these dogs are genetically predisposed to the trait. Well, here's a perfect example for you... Most of us whom prefer to get our dogs as pups have no way of knowing when we select them whether they'll be DA or not. It's a gamble we take. Ices, the butch I mentioned in a previous post, I first laid eyes and hands on her at 4 weeks old. She showed no signs of being DA until she was about 18 months old. I already had my mutt boy before I brought her into the pack, and she initiated the fight between them and has been mildly hot since then. She is mostly mouth, and I manage the rest. I'm very careful with all my dogs, no matter the breed, and I've always treated all my dogs as if they were DA, not engaging in group puppy play dates and such. I understand not everyone thinks and acts on the same level with their dogs, I'm just giving an example of how my pack is managed.


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## STiLL WILL (May 1, 2013)

BCdogs said:


> All said and done, seems like you already have your opinion, so I'm not sure why you're asking these questions when you just argue our answers with "they are dangerous" and "it has no purpose". That's your opinion, we get it. Notice how nobody else is troubled by DA because it's a complete nonissue for all of us here that have DA dogs. You don't need to fix what isn't broken.


THIS. ...also what JoKealoha said as well.

DA in APBT's is not as big of a problem as it's being made out to be in this "discussion." In fact, it's one of those things that ALL RESPONSIBLE APBT/BULL BREED(and mixes) OWNERS already assume in owning these kinds of dogs. DA comes in various levels differing from dog to dog---even dogs of the same litter may even express DA on way opposite ends of the spectrum. APBT/bull breed/bull breed mix ownership is a lifestyle choice more often than not, and it's such a small issue(if at all) to responsible owners of the same cloth.

I, for one, don't believe any breeder should be trying to actively putting out litters in which they obtained from "least DA sire/dam." You breed for quality and to(ideally) improve the gene pool. Every (APBT) breeder has their own opinion of what "quality" means, but I can almost guarantee the majority of legit APBT breeders don't believe in trying to ACTIVELY breed DA out. Why? Because it's #1) Not a huge problem #2) it comes with the territory of the breed.

Spend time with an actual owner of an actual APBT, and you'll see DA is not even a problem. Why? Because it's not about the dog having DA, but rather, how the owner manages the dog.

My APBT is not one to advertise audibly, but he is DA. Dogs of his size or bigger, he sits back and assesses and then reacts. Of course, he is never put in a situation where he cannot be managed or contained and I am WELL EQUIPPED to handle if such an accident were to happen. Small dogs, he really couldn't be bothered with. In fact, he's really not a loud dog in general, but he's gotta be monitored when we're in the vicinity of medium/large sized dogs. Since he doesn't really bark, the DA in him is more visual than it is audible. Body language and his overall focus intensity on target dogs is heightened substantially. The silent ones are always the ones you must keep a keen eye on to prevent any accidents. Would I have it any other way??!? HELL NO. I know what I own, I know what comes with owning it, and I know how to manage my dog.

DA will only be an issue for people who try to make a "pack dog" out of the APBT. You only run into problems with DA when there's other dogs involved, it is not a trait that will exploit itself in any other situation.

As bahamutt99 has said: *THESE DOGS ARE NOT FOR EVERYBODY.*

To try to actively breed out a trait of this breed(aside from culling HA dogs) IS changing this breed---and in my opinion, not for the better. If DA was really a glaring problem, it would have been dealt with shortly by APBT breeders following the Animal Welfare Act of 1976. <---and if you know what I'm getting at with that, then you're halfway to understanding why us APBT owners have no problem living with DA dogs.


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## dakar (Mar 15, 2015)

Let me go deep and clarify.

DA is mandatory in my dogs due to environment where they are exposed.

Like I said before it's almost impossible to create this temperament with training.

In my case, if my dog were a "pet" he will not last one week. I had several examples here and my father pull my ears when I insisted to buy others amstaff, but I like the breed and I had to select it carefully however, sometime like now, I will have to move Foosah to the city. He isn't tough enough to "my world".

This is just one example between several that you can hear from others colleagues.

Choose your dog carefully based in requirements.

BSL was created to punish, not to educate or avoid anything.

My last words on this thread. I'm beginning to speak in French and it means , that I said everything 



pittieparty said:


> dakar said:
> 
> 
> > Well... this answer is probably subjective...
> ...


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

BCdogs said:


> I'm not saying there aren't HA APBTs, I'm just saying that 99% of dogs in shelters are mutts, and 99% of attacks on humans are from mutts. There's no actual evidence of how many were true APBTs because the media calls them all Pit Bulls, but I'd bet just about anything there are very, very few involved in these attacks.


That's what I got from what you said before. I understood they could be largely mixed breeds, but I thought that it was the pit blood that was coming up dog aggressive in some of these pit-mutt cases, and badly bred pit blood doing worse.



BCdogs said:


> All said and done, seems like you already have your opinion, so I'm not sure why you're asking these questions when you just argue our answers with "they are dangerous" and "it has no purpose". That's your opinion, we get it. Notice how nobody else is troubled by DA because it's a complete nonissue for all of us here that have DA dogs. You don't need to fix what isn't broken.


The question in the title of this thread, is independent of whether DA is dangerous or serves no purpose. And I had no idea those were controversial concepts.

I learned here, that duh I have a dog aggressive breed, it's genetic, I can't train him out of it, and don't forget it. I feel that danger, what else can you call it? Properly managed, it will never be an issue. There will always be cases where it isn't properly managed, of course. Like anything, cars, steak knives, things can be dangerous. As has been said different times in different ways, if someone's not prepared for it, they should get a different breed. Respect the breed, be responsible, I have no argument with that.

If dog aggression has a purpose apart from the sport of dog fighting, I must have missed something. Unless it's essential to who the pit bull is, his personality and spirit. I don't have an opinion about that, despite you saying I do. I have no idea how the biology and genetics of the breed work. I hear some people saying you can't change the DA genetic without changing the breed, yet then suggesting they could be all pit, without being "hot", or DA. I latch onto that, because that's what I wonder, and I can't help thinking it would be nice to have dogs that didn't want to kill each other for no reason. Call me crazy. It seems like it would be a better life for dogs and their owners. But if no one cares about DA, there's no reason to think about it. I know I would have a better life with my foster (for the last 1 1/2 years), without the "heat", and I worry about the life he's going to have when I return him to his owner, with my warnings and admonitions. But that's life with a pit bull.

I'm grateful for this whole conversation. For the opinions, and the learning.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

STiLL WILL said:


> APBT/bull breed/bull breed mix ownership is a lifestyle choice more often than not, and it's such a small issue(if at all) to responsible owners of the same cloth.


Yup, I got that, I'm hearing it.



STiLL WILL said:


> My APBT is not one to advertise audibly, but he is DA. Dogs of his size or bigger, he sits back and assesses and then reacts...Small dogs, he really couldn't be bothered with. In fact, he's really not a loud dog in general, but he's gotta be monitored when we're in the vicinity of medium/large sized dogs. Since he doesn't really bark, the DA in him is more visual than it is audible. Body language and his overall focus intensity on target dogs is heightened substantially. The silent ones are always the ones you must keep a keen eye on to prevent any accidents.


That sounds a lot like my boy. Plus running dogs of any size, if he shows interest, I long feared what I've learned is called predatory drift.



STiLL WILL said:


> Would I have it any other way??!? HELL NO. I know what I own, I know what comes with owning it, and I know how to manage my dog.


I'm hearing that, here, as I expected. And I think it's great. They're wonderful dogs, the ones that I've met, and the one that I have. Wouldn't seem a loss, to me, to be without the DA. But I respect the love.



STiLL WILL said:


> DA will only be an issue for people who try to make a "pack dog" out of the APBT. You only run into problems with DA when there's other dogs involved, it is not a trait that will exploit itself in any other situation.


Not sure that's true. But like you said, you manage those other situations, like walks in the park, trips, etc. It's a lifestyle choice, like you said. So it follows that


STiLL WILL said:


> As bahamutt99 has said: *THESE DOGS ARE NOT FOR EVERYBODY.*





STiLL WILL said:


> To try to actively breed out a trait of this breed(aside from culling HA dogs) IS changing this breed---and in my opinion, not for the better. If DA was really a glaring problem, it would have been dealt with shortly by APBT breeders following the Animal Welfare Act of 1976. <---and if you know what I'm getting at with that, then you're halfway to understanding why us APBT owners have no problem living with DA dogs.


I looked up the Animal Welfare Act of 1976, but no, I don't know what you're getting at. But I get where you're coming from.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

dakar said:


> Let me go deep and clarify.
> 
> DA is mandatory in my dogs due to environment where they are exposed.
> 
> ...


Ah, hang on to your English for just a minute longer?

Why is the DA necessary in your environment? It sounds like you are saying the quality of DA makes them tougher generally; or are you saying they need to be more aggressive to other dogs, for some reason?

Also, when you said a ways back that Big Blue, I think, chases cows, please tell me how that goes! He chases, but doesn't attack? Or is he a herder, or what?

I'm sorry I only learned to count in French, not much help for you.


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## dakar (Mar 15, 2015)

I'm saying that DA is necessary to my environment because it implies directly on the dog behavior and how he will act when required, not necessarilly against other dog, but other animal.

We run my place in ranges segments, meaning, for each area, I should have # dogs and it will cover all this area and it must possess a rustic temperament to be able to handle some situations, no limited to (boar, leopard, alpha bulls, fox, etc, etc), it means, that a 'pet dog' wont survive on it.

When we have any stampede on Big Blue area for instance, he used to "check" his territory, if other animal is on it, probably he will kill it.

Never had issue with him killing any cow. We have some incidents with other breed, that we arent using anymore.

I believe that main point here is to highlight what others colleagues told you.:

1) APBT and other 'hot' breeds are not for everyone or even a novice owner.
2) DA is part of the packaged and must NOT be removed from the breed and its not a problem if 1) and 3) are satisfied.
3) DA could be managed it depends on owner attitude and experience.
4) If you are looking for a dog without DA, try a breed without it, dont try to change the breed nature.

My case, probably its an exception from others here, however, all colleagues provide you feedback and points of view very interesting that could form your opinion and help you to find the 'right' dog.

One point.: Even for not recognized DA breeds, it could happen. If I have two chihauas, i guess that I would act and manage them as I do with my amstaff, dogos argentinos and Belgian Shepperd.

Dakar.



pittieparty said:


> Ah, hang on to your English for just a minute longer?
> 
> Why is the DA necessary in your environment? It sounds like you are saying the quality of DA makes them tougher generally; or are you saying they need to be more aggressive to other dogs, for some reason
> 
> ...


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

dakar said:


> I'm saying that DA is necessary to my environment because it implies directly on the dog behavior and how he will act when required, not necessarilly against other dog, but other animal.
> 
> We run my place in ranges segments, meaning, for each area, I should have # dogs and it will cover all this area and it must possess a rustic temperament to be able to handle some situations, no limited to (boar, leopard, alpha bulls, fox, etc, etc), it means, that a 'pet dog' wont survive on it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that explanation. So you are saying that you feel a DA, hot dog (um, doesn't sound right) will fight better against any other animals. You feel that DA, and heat, make your dog more able in a rough environment. From what others have said here, it sounds like a cold dog could perform well, also, just depends on the dog. (I'm not saying so, I wouldn't know.) That's great that Big Blue doesn't hurt the cows!

Good summary of this thread, I was just working on one, myself.

Thanks for busting out that English, again.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

Here's my summary, in case anyone's still interested in this beaten, bloody horse.


Informal record of opinions here on whether you can breed out DA and still be true to the pit bull.
(Edited in no order, but no words changed.)

COACH
When one breeds out the traits these dogs were bred for, you change the breed. 
Bred for GAMENESS.

st francis
Bottom line....change the dog = change the breed.

Jokohlea
the breed does not need change. nor should it be changed.

bahamutt99
it is an interesting question and one a lot of modern breeders struggle with. Trying to create a place for these dogs in a crowded world while being true to their origins.

How we preserve the breed and translate their purpose into the modern day, that's where we will run into snags.

Some adhere strictly to dog aggression as vital to the breed. They pick their keeper pups based on which ones show the most fire, even though that doesn't speak as to how game they will be at maturity. Others have very "cold" lines and are happier that way, even go so far as speak down about their more scrappy counterparts.

I do not want to see dog aggression intentionally bred out, but I do believe that if it is not specifically selected for, it will slowly return to a more normal level on its own.

STiLL WILL
I, for one, don't believe any breeder should be trying to actively putting out litters in which they obtained from "least DA sire/dam"...I can almost guarantee the majority of legit APBT breeders don't believe in trying to ACTIVELY breed DA out. 

To try to actively breed out a trait of this breed(aside from culling HA dogs) IS changing this breed---and in my opinion, not for the better.

ThaLadyPit
when you start selectively breeding out the traits which make these dogs who and what they are, you're essentially creating a different breed. There's just no two ways about it. While you can selectively breed for different temperament traits, as Bahamutt mentioned above, you don't want to completely breed out a certain trait, unless it's a genetic/medical issue. 

PittyChick
The APBT were much more driven, enthusiastic, seemed much more in tune to their owners while still being friendly with outsiders, and just exuberant/happy dogs. The Am staffs were all nice, sweet dogs just with everything toned down (a lot), and were more interested in other people, and other things going on rather than being tuned into their owners. It's hard to put into words all of the subtle differences. Some of the Am Staffs were DA some were not.

It makes me believe that the drive and personality may not be directly linked to DA and that with VERY selective and careful breeding you can keep intact everything (looks and personality) but the DA and not turn them into Amstaffs. I could be completely wrong, again I'm not a breeder, nor do I own tightly bred apbts. It's just my observation. 

dakar
DA is mandatory in my dogs due to environment where they are exposed. 
Like I said before it's almost impossible to create this temperament with training. 

An APBT, must be always a "psycho" apbt. This is what make them so unique and special.
Lower his temperament, in my opinion, its a crime !!! 

bahamutt99
Saying they must be "psycho" diminishes the contribution of level-headed game dogs...A dog being over-the-top hot is not necessarily deep game or able.

bahamutt99
Dog aggression does not equal working drive. You can have one, the other, or both.

BCdogs
AmStaffs are...not bred with gameness in mind as many APBTs still are, and when you purposely take that trait away, it's no longer an APBT in my opinion. 

BCdogs
That's not to say that a cold dog isn't an APBT.

COACH
A cold dog can be game.

Dakar
Maybe (BIG MAYBE) not all APBT are DA or even close to that, but that stick saying that it could be, should be part of the packaged. 



On how irritating I am, and how DA is a non issue for responsible owners. (There was a lot more about that--I mean how DA is a nonissue, but you get the idea.)

COACH
Well you seem to have your idea of what an APBT should be like so I'm not going to continue to go in circles as our opinions differ.

st francis
You seem to be one of these people who want to forget how these dogs came about....and reinvent their history.

BCdogs 
Seems like you already have your opinion, so I'm not sure why you're asking these questions when you just argue our answers with "they are dangerous" and "it has no purpose". That's your opinion, we get it. Notice how nobody else is troubled by DA because it's a complete nonissue for all of us here that have DA dogs. You don't need to fix what isn't broken.

STiLL WILL
Originally Posted by BCdogs
THIS.
DA in APBT's is not as big of a problem as it's being made out to be in this "discussion."



Thank you all, so much for indulging me. I didn't realize I was pushing my opinion by asking questions or challenging answers--that's how I learn. Nor did I realize that calling DA dangerous, was controversial. In my quest to understand the role of DA in the spirit of the pit bull, I feel like I have a more comprehensive view. If I trampled the thread by being over-involved, sorry about that, too. I probably should have stepped back and hoped for more debate/discussion without me. But as always, thanks for the learnin'


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## dakar (Mar 15, 2015)

Its not a feeling, its a fact. We had this experience here several times and we could learn a little bit.

Big Blue its a real hot dog... Not nervous, but responds quickly when required. This is an exception. Usually Amstaff are just 'cute'. ;-)

Cold dog / Hot dog - To me, it means the same. I dont like dogs barking, i like dogs acting. So, as long he would react/act on time, thats my right dog.

APBT in my humble opinion (depends on the breeder, of course) its an evolution. An unique animal with a range of skills and possibilities, that requires owners with experience, training, good meal, etc, etc...

Next year Big Blue and his bitch will going to retirement and I will replace it for APBT or Dogos Argentinos. Most inclined to APBT due to mind stability than dogos...

No one kills cows here, except by thieves and leopards. ;-)

Just for the second we can dry the skin and wear it as clothes. :hammer:



pittieparty said:


> Thanks for that explanation. So you are saying that you feel a DA, hot dog (um, doesn't sound right) will fight better against any other animals. You feel that DA, and heat, make your dog more able in a rough environment. From what others have said here, it sounds like a cold dog could perform well, also, just depends on the dog. (I'm not saying so, I wouldn't know.) That's great that Big Blue doesn't hurt the cows!
> 
> Good summary of this thread, I was just working on one, myself.
> 
> Thanks for busting out that English, again.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

*Dog aggression, is that genetic tendency essential to the spirit of the pit b...*

My issue is when people inherently label one breed of dog aggressive when many breeds of dogs and mutts have dog aggression. I think you're getting stuck on that when that is a trait that many breeds and mutts could display. Being game varies depending on what you feel can prove a dog is game. There are some who argue apbt aren't the only game dogs. You will see wide opinions based on all the hot topics. What it comes down to is all dogs are individuals and no matter the breed, every dog isn't for everyone. Every dog needs to be managed. Any dog has teeth, any dog can bite. I feel like you turned a question about breeding and inherited traits and then linked it to BSL. I don't like that at all. Talking in generalities and pulling it back to why some feel they should be banned by appearance alone isn't productive. How a dog is managed is key, no matter what breed.

Taking summaries of how people feel their comment were taken is kinda confusing to me as well. What are you after?


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

ames said:


> My issue is when people inherently label one breed of dog aggressive when many breeds of dogs and mutts have dog aggression. I think you're getting stuck on that when that is a trait that many breeds and mutts could display. Being a game is varies depending on what you feel can prove a dog is game. There are some who argue apbt aren't the only game dogs. You will see wide opinions based on all the hot topics. What it comes down to is all dogs are individuals and no matter the breed, every dog isn't for everyone. Every dog needs to be managed. Any dog has teeth, any dog can bite. I feel like you turned a question about breeding and inherited traits and then linked it to BSL. I don't like that at all. Talking in generalities and pulling it back to why some feel they should be banned by appearance alone isn't productive. How a dog is managed is key, no matter what breed.
> 
> Taking summaries of how people feel their comment were taken is kinda confusing to me as well. What are you after?


Edited to add, Good, common sense post, BTW. I underlined a sentence above that I would put in my summary, if you didn't find my summary disturbing. ;-) Although this didn't go too much into the definition of gameness, it's an equally interesting debate.

I regret mentioning BSL. I was trying to reason through a contradiction I was hearing, and I think it jolted me sideways. The denial that dog aggression is dangerous, yet how specialized and careful the requirements of ownership and management of APBTs are. That I even need to explain that it's dangerous when there's a propensity for aggression from a powerful animal with teeth, even if it's only towards dogs; yet the emphasis that they are not like other dogs and are not to be managed like other dogs by people who don't understand them and aren't prepared for the pit bull "lifestyle". The ignorant public is most of us who are adopting pit bulls/unknown mixes that might have the APBT genetic. From what I see in Iowa and the south side of Chicago. That sounds dangerous/potentially dangerous, to me. I'm not promoting BSL, so let's speak a little more straightforwardly. In the vein of, "Educate, don't legislate".

I learned here on gopitbull that APBTs' DA genetic can show any time, with no warning. But, the bully mixes languishing in shelters or showcased in horror stories of unexpected aggression (dog attacks where humans also got hurt), may have nothing whatsoever to do with APBTs, since true APBTs are actually rare and generally in responsible hands. I think BCdogs said that? I'd have to check. So my concerns about how APBT DA affects the lives of so many dogs, it may be unfounded. That is some of the food for thought I've gotten.

I thought a summary was interesting reflection of the range of perspectives on the subject of DA, gameness, and breeding that doesn't diminish the breed. I didn't think a summary would be disturbing. For me it was clarifying.

I just found this old thread, and it touches on a lot of what I was wondering about. From post #30 on, I think, it goes into it. For me, this is a subject I would like to understand better, that's why I'm and reading and discussing it.

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-...kc-show-advertised-pitbull-show-cda-id-2.html


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

pittieparty said:


> The denial that dog aggression is dangerous, yet how specialized and careful the requirements of ownership and management of APBTs are. That I even need to explain that it's dangerous when there's a propensity for aggression from a powerful animal with teeth, even if it's only towards dogs; yet the emphasis that they are not like other dogs and are not to be managed like other dogs by people who don't understand them and aren't prepared for the pit bull "lifestyle". The ignorant public is most of us who are adopting pit bulls/unknown mixes that might have the APBT genetic. From what I see in Iowa and the south side of Chicago. That sounds dangerous/potentially dangerous, to me. I'm not promoting BSL, so let's speak a little more straightforwardly. In the vein of, "Educate, don't legislate".


understanding dog aggression is a long road. but what actually constitutes a "dangerous" animal can be achieved more readily. dog aggression alone does not determine the level of danger. 
"danger" is associated with risk and therefore probability. the greater the likelihood of incident, the greater the risk, and the greater the danger. regardless of the DA level, in the hands of irresponsible ownership, there is high probability for reoccurring incidents. if i let my 5 year old walk my 67 pounder around the neighborhood, that animal poses high risk. the same dog under my supervision does not.
managed properly, risk is mitigated and "danger" becomes "healthy concern".
bottom line, a DA dog is dangerous when the owner has not carried out their due diligence; training, selecting proper tackle, securing the perimeter, etc.
only in the absence of proper measure, does the dog become "dangerous".
and yes, i would agree that happens much too often.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

*Dog aggression, is that genetic tendency essential to the spirit of the pit b...*



JoKealoha said:


> understanding dog aggression is a long road. but what actually constitutes a "dangerous" animal can be achieved more readily. dog aggression alone does not determine the level of danger.
> 
> "danger" is associated with risk and therefore probability. the greater the likelihood of incident, the greater the risk, and the greater the danger. regardless of the DA level, in the hands of irresponsible ownership, there is high probability for reoccurring incidents. if i let my 5 year old walk my 67 pounder around the neighborhood, that animal poses high risk. the same dog under my supervision does not.
> 
> ...


I think this ^^^ is spot on. Great examples. It was mentioned above that a dog jumped out of a second floor balcony. My dog was attacked when he was a puppy. Two years later while I was driving home he jumped out of the car window when he saw the poodle who attacked him. He is now never in the car unharnessed and the back windows are always up. So no you can't avoid or plan for every situation but you take precautions. Learn from mistakes. I have come across very very few dog attack incidents where people didn't have a clue their dog behaved this way. They may initially claim they never saw it coming, but when discussing details it's revealed they just ignores the signs. That's what needs to change. Understanding dog language and very few know how to do that well.

Thanks for explaining. I often read things and cringe because I have seen statements be taken out of context and used against someone not how they were intended. I think a big push for people to understand the breed backfires in unintended ways. On both sides. APBT owners who "never trust a APBT not to fight" (I prefer dog) vs. the rescue owners who are convinced they own an apbt and it's the most "loving and docile toward all humans and animals, all pit bulls are if they are raised right" attitudes. There has to be a happy medium. I find in reality it's best to assume "the worst" to prevent any issue from ever happening to begin with. No matter what dog you own. It's best to be realistic.

What I also don't like is when people who rescue are told by some their "dog is not a pit bull but it could have some pit bull in it because it looks like a bull breed so expect it to have dog aggression" it's basically reinforcing the stereotype that the APBT is unpredictable, which it isn't. Especially when people take time to learn how to read their dog. Many times I cringe when people claim their dog just "snapped out of no where" Or that their dog would "lick you to death". Doesn't really have anything to do with your thread, lol sorry. Lots of different opinions and thoughts on the issues.

As far as a game dog, I feel there is only one way to test for that which is illegal in this country. I also don't feel dog aggression is bad or makes a dog unstable. I think many things factor into stability and how the dog reacts to being managed tells a lot more than just having dog aggression. There are also many many kinds. Some don't like unaltered males, some don't like dogs unleashed when they are leashed, some hate almost every dog they meet. So many different reasons some that can be worked through some that can't but all can be managed with the right owner.


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## TeamCourter (Oct 22, 2013)

You can't just get rid of dog aggression, there are DA dogs in every breed. Rather than trying to change the DA tendencies of the APBT, just don't own one if you can't handle it. Yes you hear of powerful breeds causing damage to animals and/or people, but if the dog had a responsible owner it would have never happened. The breed isn't what needs changing, it's the humans!


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Yeah a cold dog can be game but it's a lot less likely than a hot one.... I haven't read this whole post but I've read bits and pieces.... UKC APBTs are pretty much AMStaffs so don't use that as you reference for description. Use the ADBA.... 

There are countries where matching dogs is still legal and the breed is being preserved just as it was here in the USA and other countries before it became illegal. 

DA is simply a part of MOST real deal APBTs... Don't like it or want it? Get a different breed. It's pretty simple  

I hate certain traits about other breeds so I don't own those breeds.


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## dakar (Mar 15, 2015)

We don't need BSL, we need HSL and make it effective...

I had always the opinion that to own a dog you need a license, just like a car or firearm...

Just watched on TV : "A Shitzu biten a baby in the nose and the baby will need a repair surgery"

Who was the animal who left a baby without supervision near a dog without leash ? 

This kind of tragedy occurs every saint day and we don't learn anything from it....

That's why I love more my animals... They aren't so stupid.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

JoKealoha said:


> understanding dog aggression is a long road. but what actually constitutes a "dangerous" animal can be achieved more readily. dog aggression alone does not determine the level of danger.
> "danger" is associated with risk and therefore probability. the greater the likelihood of incident, the greater the risk, and the greater the danger. regardless of the DA level, in the hands of irresponsible ownership, there is high probability for reoccurring incidents. if i let my 5 year old walk my 67 pounder around the neighborhood, that animal poses high risk. the same dog under my supervision does not.
> managed properly, risk is mitigated and "danger" becomes "healthy concern".
> bottom line, a DA dog is dangerous when the owner has not carried out their due diligence; training, selecting proper tackle, securing the perimeter, etc.
> ...


:goodpost:
With the caveat of the occasional DA dog flying off a second story balcony to attack (perhaps a reasonably unforeseen tragedy?), 100% agreement.


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## ames (Jun 6, 2010)

pittieparty said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> With the caveat of the occasional DA dog flying off a second story balcony to attack (perhaps a reasonably unforeseen tragedy?), 100% agreement.


I bet every dog you own will never be underestimated that they won't jump off the balcony and precautions will be taken to prevent it from happening again. If not then that's not properly managing your dog, ya know?


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

ames said:


> I bet every dog you own will never be underestimated that they won't jump off the balcony and precautions will be taken to prevent it from happening again. If not then that's not properly managing your dog, ya know?


Yup!

And besides the $450 vet bill for the American bulldog, I paid pain and suffering even though they didn't ask for it. And for their peace of mind, I text them before walking my gladiator around the block. Even though, *hangs head in shame* on leash, or in my appropriate vicinity, I have excellent control.

I do not want to test my vicinity of control on my beast, with his DA. I became confident in my management of my two fosters in the house, but at the dog park (no other dogs present or I leave), throwing two tennis balls opposite directions, I discovered my sphere of influence did not exist a ball's throw away.

This does all still beg the point I wouldn't think needed to be made, that the potential of danger obviously exists with dog aggression, whatever the breed. Less, in proportion to circumstances or tighter management. I think we can all agree on that.


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## dakar (Mar 15, 2015)

Yeah Man.

We all can commit mistakes and something the things goes wrong and out of control, but we should always be able to shutdown the machine if control were lost...

The good thing is.: We learn, we improve and we adapt.

I dont like dog parks... i hate it. to me, this thing, should be erased from the earth. why ? because, not all dogs are trained or even their owners/tutors.

I went to city today and see something that made me call the police. A girl (almost 9 or 10 years old) with a Rottweiler on a leash walking on the streets. This is an announced tragedy. If that Rott get nervous.... i dont wanna imagine.

Btw, dont you guys (in north america) talk to your lawmakers or representatives about this kind of stuff (e.g.: license to have a dog instead of BSL) ?

Just trying to figure out the activism over there.

I apologize if I hijacked the thread.

Dakar



pittieparty said:


> Yup!
> 
> And besides the $450 vet bill for the American bulldog, I paid pain and suffering even though they didn't ask for it. And for their peace of mind, I text them before walking my gladiator around the block. Even though, *hangs head in shame* on leash, or in my appropriate vicinity, I have excellent control.
> 
> ...


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

Trying not to keep stomping all over this thread by responding to every post, but appreciating them.

I've also been loving what I read on that other thread I mentioned above, and I was trying to control myself from quoting it, but it's too good.

A major purpose of this thread is understanding the APBT, ie, is the DA genetic necessary to be kept in his blood, for him to be who is. I get that no one cares, cuz y'all like to crate and rotate, avoid events with dogs unless very tightly managed, never leave home without your break stick, and otherwise live the pit bull "lifestyle" as it was referred. No problem. Okay, fine. (BTW, thanks for teaching me what a break stick is.  )

On this other thread, the nature of the traditional game bred pit bull is described from a different angle. I understand that all dogs are different, that some dogs will just always be too "hot" or reactively DA to be a fit for some circumstances. I'll continue to question why you would want to keep that in the genetic potential, and you can keep thinking I'm a dope. However, these descriptions speak of a dog who in addition to fearless skill and strength, has self control, obedience, and good sense. His prey drive and DA (hot or cold?) make him a "working dog" when he needs to/is supposed to, has better things to do the rest of the time. Perhaps idealized, but inspiring! If it were all true all the time, I'd be singing in the choir with all of you (to the rock n' roll tune of We Don't Need No Education) leave those pit bulls alone!

I hope it isn't bad form to quote from this other thread. A few posts by the same poster put together, edited for conciseness, no words changed. It just speaks so beautifully for the spirit of the game bred dog, who couldn't love him?

Also, interesting for me to hear described how these bull baiters of old are not crazed killers, but trained helpers. As Dixieland said on that thread, "In my mind it doesn't have anything to do with the prey drive,but on how you train it to act on that prey drive."

NorCalTim
The gameness from his forefathers, WHEN KEPT PURE, allows for a:
stable temperament,
the feeling that a dog (as Greenwood would say) "can lick the whole world", does not mean he attacks dogs. He is just very confident. He can walk with your children to the store and back, not worried about other dogs or people.
A dog kept pure is a people friendly dog.

...a dog that can still be able to hold down a Bull if need be.
If not, it is not an APBT.
It is another breed, plain and simple.

Firehazard
its the game dogs with the balanced mentality everyone adores in the APBT. ITs the badly bred dogs for looks or whatever that have combined with ignorant owners make it a do or die situation for the American Game dog

Hooch only had to bite bulls; the cows, sheep, goats, and horses just moved without testing him, I believe the APBT presence and energy reserved confidence says it all...I have always utilized them as stock dogs and hunting dogs, raise an APBT as a stock dog, go the competition route, APBTs accel over all other dogs at everything.

Cats, chickens, all sorts of livestock family pets and definitely my CHILDREN and ANYONE ELSES CHILDREN were safe as could be with Hooch or any other "Bulldog" GAMEDOG APBT brought up as a stock or farm dog, Hooch wrangled lose 3000lbs bulls and snaggled one up saving my landlords life, and know just when to stop after all people were cleared of danger, I gave the whistle and he broke OKAY maybe a whistle or 2 I promote my dogs that I place as country dogs and stock dogs, thats what they DO BEST, its an ALL DAY job and they get to USE THEIR grappling skills to catch and kill coyotes, foxes, bobcats, and feral dogs.... SO YES if you want a IRREPLACEABLE stock dog, a well bred Zebo/Garner dog or Jocko blood, will work for you great...AMSTAFF, IMO from pedigreed studies, game bred ancestors bred for a LOOK and LESS GAME.. SO AGAIN, most people who think they want a APBT need, a diferent bully breed, but anyone on a farm on land or living a ranch lifestyle need no other than a the REAL DEAL, The only dogs live on my 10 acre mt ranch are those that can put it down at night while we sleep without getting eat, coyotes, coyote wolf mixes, mt. lions, bobcats, wolverines, raccoons, feral dogs and of course bears. They are the TRUE old yellar.. NO CURRING allowed 

...as the book title says, hes a dog of "Velvet and Steel." ...Like Colby once said, the "pit" bulldog can out do any breed at what it was bred to do, then whip em' when its done. Don't mean to soap box~ can't stand to see people say APBT is not a stock dog.. buahahhahahahaha they are the original stock dog, the original bulldog, other breeds were improved by adding APBT like the HEELER...None of those breeds have anything to offer to a herding dog, the APBT has more than people know how to handle, the APBT is a BULLDOG that was THROWN into the PIT. FIGHTING DOG 2nd STOCK DOG 1st Game bred dog isn't a mindless fighter, quite contrary, he is a tactition with endless endurance and will;a bullet proof catch machine, your .38 or .45 on command.


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

dakar said:


> Yeah Man.
> 
> We all can commit mistakes and something the things goes wrong and out of control, but we should always be able to shutdown the machine if control were lost...
> 
> ...


Dakar,

Hijack away. How do you say, Mi casa es su casa in French?

I posted elsewhere on this forum how I used to walk three dogs off leash, shephard mixes and a Doberman, through the city when I was 10 and probably younger. Way back in the olden days, before people even picked up their dog poo.


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

No no no no and no again!!! People shouldn't need licenses to own a freakin dog. I will not be told what I can and can not own. That's socialist/communist... I don't think folks should have gun licenses either... Back in the 1800 this crap didn't exist. People had guns and bulldogs. 

Next thing you know people will be required to have a license to own a cat, have children, a license to own more than 2 cars, a licence to raise your own food, etc. the more governments get involved with people's lives the worst it gets. 

No, where the APBT went downhill some is that they fell into the hands of the everyday man, and not in the small circle they used to be in pre 76


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

pittieparty said:


> A major purpose of this thread is understanding the APBT, ie, *is the DA genetic necessary to be kept in his blood, for him to be who is*. *I get that no one cares*, cuz y'all like to crate and rotate, avoid events with dogs unless very tightly managed, never leave home without your break stick, and otherwise live the pit bull "lifestyle" as it was referred. No problem. Okay, fine. (BTW, thanks for teaching me what a break stick is.  )
> 
> On this other thread, the nature of the traditional game bred pit bull is described from a different angle. I understand that all dogs are different, that some dogs will just always be too "hot" or reactively DA to be a fit for some circumstances. *I'll continue to question why you would want to keep that in the genetic potential, and you can keep thinking I'm a dope.* *However, these descriptions speak of a dog who in addition to fearless skill and strength, has self control, obedience, and good sense.* His prey drive and DA (hot or cold?) make him a "working dog" when he needs to/is supposed to, has better things to do the rest of the time. Perhaps idealized, but inspiring! If it were all true all the time, I'd be singing in the choir with all of you (to the tune of We Don't Need No Education) leave those pit bulls alone!


you are passively disagreeing with almost everything we say. you are disguising an argument for changing the breed with questions about "understanding". while your politeness is appreciated, it is somewhat insulting to assume we can't tell what you are actually doing.
YES- dog aggression is a defining characteristic of a true APBT. regardless of its obsolete purpose here in the States, removing the trait essentially redefines the dog and therefore creates a different breed (which has already been done).
WE ALL CARE- and that is why we crate and rotate, etc etc. not because we "like" it. because we recognize it as necessary to ensure the safety of our pups.
KEEPING the genetic purity of the APBT is not motivated by stubbornness or malicious intent, it is love that drives the preservation of the breed. if you love something completely, unconditionally, changing it would destroy it.

... it is okay to disagree with us. but don't hide behind niceties. i am spent.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

::::COACH:::: said:


> No no no no and no again!!! People shouldn't need licenses to own a freakin dog. I will not be told what I can and can not own. That's socialist/communist... I don't think folks should have gun licenses either... Back in the 1800 this crap didn't exist. People had guns and bulldogs.
> 
> Next thing you know people will be required to have a license to own a cat, have children, a license to own more than 2 cars, a licence to raise your own food, etc. the more governments get involved with people's lives the worst it gets.
> 
> No, where the APBT went downhill some is that they fell into the hands of the everyday man, and not in the small circle they used to be in pre 76


WORD.:clap:


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

JoKealoha said:


> you are passively disagreeing with almost everything we say. you are disguising an argument for changing the breed with questions about "understanding". while your politeness is appreciated, it is somewhat insulting to assume we can't tell what you are actually doing.
> YES- dog aggression is a defining characteristic of a true APBT. regardless of its obsolete purpose here in the States, removing the trait essentially redefines the dog and therefore creates a different breed (which has already been done).
> WE ALL CARE- and that is why we crate and rotate, etc etc. not because we "like" it. because we recognize it as necessary to ensure the safety of our pups.
> KEEPING the genetic purity of the APBT is not motivated by stubbornness or malicious intent, it is love that drives the preservation of the breed. if you love something completely, unconditionally, changing it would destroy it.
> ...


I'm not expressing myself well. I know that you crate and rotate because you care, and are being responsible, not because you like having to do it. I shouldn't be flip, or whatever the word is, because it comes across disrespectfully, and I am sorry for that. I am definitely accusing no one here of malicious intent. I am genuine in trying to understand the breed, if and how DA is essential to it. I am honest about not understanding why you would want to keep that challenging aspect, if it were not necessary for them to be who they are. I'm getting that it is essential to who they are, because it has always been part of the breed, so it should not be changed. And it's not considered a problem by those who love the breed. When I learn that it's not always present, even in game dogs, it makes wonder what the loss would be. I have appreciated the opportunity to explore it here. I have not hidden my biases. I don't think questioning the benefits/purpose of dog aggression is such an outlandish thing. But I don't want to be rude about it. I have no authority, here, really just want to understand the dog in my living room, and the breed/breeding that makes him who he is. Ideally I could be honest about how I feel, without offending you. "Don't hide behind niceties?" Would you rather I disagree while being rude? "Disguising an argument?" I thought I was being straightforward. "Passively disagreeing with almost everything we say?" I look for the logic. You say it's okay to disagree with you, but apparently not out loud. I'll try to keep it to myself from now on, unless it's the party line. I'm here to learn, anyway, from people who know more than me, so I can afford to listen instead of talk. I'll try to ask questions or express my concerns very carefully, and not question much. Or I'll go back to lurking. It's just that sometimes I can learn more by talking than lurking. Especially about people.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

pittieparty said:


> I'm not expressing myself well. I know that you crate and rotate because you care, and are being responsible, not because you like having to do it. I shouldn't be flip, or whatever the word is, because it comes across disrespectfully, and I am sorry for that. I am definitely accusing no one here of malicious intent. I am genuine in trying to understand the breed, if and how DA is essential to it. I am honest about not understanding why you would want to keep that challenging aspect, if it were not necessary for them to be who they are. I'm getting that it is essential to who they are, because it is part of the breed, has always been, so it should not be changed. And it's not considered a problem by those who love the breed. When I learn that it's not always present, even in game dogs, it makes wonder what the loss would be. I have appreciated the opportunity to explore it here. I have not hidden my biases. I don't think questioning the benefits/purpose of dog aggression is such an outlandish thing. But I don't want to be rude about it. I have no authority, here, really just want to understand the dog in my living room, and the breed/breeding that makes him who he is. Ideally I could be honest about how I feel, without offending you. "Don't hide behind niceties?" Would you rather I disagree while being rude? That I don't get. "Passively disagreeing with almost everything we say?" I have my opinion, and since it's not okay that it's different from yours, I'll try to keep it to myself from now on, unless it's the party line. I'm here to learn, anyway, from people who know more than me, so I'll try to ask questions or express my concerns very carefully, and not question too much. Or I'll go back to lurking. Sometimes I can learn more by talking than lurking. Especially about people.


first, i should not presume to speak on behalf of anyone else. i should have said I or me, in stead of us and we. apologies to all.
but i mean what i said. especially about "it's okay to disagree", even though you chose to ignore that bit. just like you are ignoring almost every explanation provided to you.
i believe the conflict in your mind is not really about "dogs" or breed characteristics. this is a matter of LOGIC.
IF YOU CHANGE SOMETHING IT CEASES TO BE WHAT IT WAS AND BECOMES SOMETHING NEW. at that point you must call it by a different name. it is neither good nor bad. neither wanted nor needed. it is simply rational.
if you bought a Mercedes, but instead of a German 8cyl under the hood there was a Japanese 4cyl, you might feel mislead by the logo on your car. maybe the salesperson goes on to explain how great the gas mileage is. and how repairs will cost less. and how the car is "better". and maybe it is. but it's definitely not a Mercedes you bought. the vehicle is mislabeled and should not be advertised under the same brand.


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## JoKealoha (Mar 22, 2011)

am i the resident provider of analogies or what? LMAO


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## dakar (Mar 15, 2015)

JoKealoha said:


> am i the resident provider of analogies or what? LMAO


Jokealoha,

Dude... you overpassed on this regarding mercedez !!! I will use it. Amazing. Have you (C) it ?



Dakar


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## pittieparty (Feb 25, 2015)

JoKealoha said:


> first, i should not presume to speak on behalf of anyone else. i should have said I or me, in stead of us and we. apologies to all.
> but i mean what i said. especially about "it's okay to disagree", even though you chose to ignore that bit. just like you are ignoring almost every explanation provided to you.
> i believe the conflict in your mind is not really about "dogs" or breed characteristics. this is a matter of LOGIC.
> IF YOU CHANGE SOMETHING IT CEASES TO BE WHAT IT WAS AND BECOMES SOMETHING NEW. at that point you must call it by a different name. it is neither good nor bad. neither wanted nor needed. it is simply rational.
> if you bought a Mercedes, but instead of a German 8cyl under the hood there was a Japanese 4cyl, you might feel mislead by the logo on your car. maybe the salesperson goes on to explain how great the gas mileage is. and how repairs will cost less. and how the car is "better". and maybe it is. but it's definitely not a Mercedes you bought. the vehicle is mislabeled and should not be advertised under the same brand.


I just edited my post with the word logic in it, that I seek the logic. I hate to suggest (on your account) that we might be a bit in sync. And I do get the logic that change makes something different, not what it was, and therefore not true to what it was. Edited to add: Ooh, ooh, That's what I already said, you just refuse to listen! (Please have a sense of humor? Please?)

I also included reference to you saying that it was okay that I disagree--didn't ignore it, just took me a minute to point out it seems I'm not supposed to speak my disagreement.

Third funny coincidence is, the other day I was thinking through a car analogy, myself. (Would Twilight Zone music apply here?) My analogy was, if you take a Jaguar, and you decide it's dangerous because it goes so fast and people sometimes drove it irresponsibly and accidents happened that were worse than accidents with Volvos, so someone changed it so it didn't go over 50 mph (or whatever)--then it would definitely not be a Jaguar anymore. But would a pit bull lose something essential in his spirit without DA? That I don't know. In your analogy, is removing DA the equivalent of replacing an 8cyl engine with a 4cyl engine? I don't know, that is what I have been pursuing, in addition to my surprise at even having to explain or defend how DA might be considered dangerous, or a drawback.

I really don't know how to not come across as ignoring everything that's said. I'm hearing, and trying to make sense of it. Like a frikkin bull dog, apparently.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

This has been an interesting discussion, but I think this thread has run its course. Thank you to all our members who have participated in a thoughtful and educational manner. It's a subject that I'm sure we will continue to discuss in the future, but for now...

Thread closed.


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