# Muzzles to control DA?



## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

SO was siting here talking with a friend of ours about the breed and DA especially how its a concern here with multiples and anyone else who owns multiples. We were going over about how we rotate dogs between crates and dog runs and kennels ect and all thats involved. He asked why we dont just get them the cages and let them all be together he seems to think they may bump cages a few times realize they cant do anything and get over it. 
My feelings on this is I would still be on edge if they happened to get it off I think its a risk not needed ,{ i dont have experience with muzzles so not sure how easy a task this would be to get off} and I just think it would be stressfull would be like living with someone you hate so bad and having your hands tied behind your back lol. I know its not an option in my yard I just dont like the visual look of a dog in muzzle I think its bad for the breeds image { however I know its needed in some cases and can respect that , it has a place and time IMO} .
Was wondering what others thought of this and if anyone has tried this method or have experience with muzzles and what you saw behaviour wise from the dog wearing it , did they become more aggressive or did they seem defeated and calmed down ? does it efect them at all?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I don't see why anyone would want to muzzle a dog for an unnecessary reason. The dogs have no NEED to be together so why make them wear a muzzle just so they can be around each other? 

No directly at you on this statement Angel.... It really irritates me when people get a DA breed and want to find ways to "make it work" when it comes to DA and other dogs. Plain and simple if you want your dogs to be buddies and hang out DON'T GET A DA BRED OF DOG! Again that is not directed at you, just an issue I have with people and these types of dogs concerning DA.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Ya see this same person who I have talked with about this breed numerous times is convinced its how you train them, wheni make a statement about no its in there blood there DNA its how they were bred and no matter how you train them its stillbound to come out at some point you cant train this out of them , he disagrees lol. Kinda frustrating . Iagree with the muzzle thing there are citys around here one on the island where my brother lives where they have muzzle laws in place I just couldnt live there I cant imagine having to put a muzzle on to walk my dog down the street its sad to me. Let alone doing it for a selfish reason. { again I do understand those cases where you NEED to muzzle your dog , just not everyday like this buddy suggested}


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## Trojanboi400 (Sep 1, 2011)

I don't have nearly as many dogs as you two. My "yard" consist of 2 APBTs & 1 mini pincher mix (female) with a dog run to separate if needed. They are around each other most of the time except nite nite in the crates lol. The only one I ever put a muzzle on was my female apbt Cookie. The muzzle made her more aggressive & she managed to take it off in like 3 mins. If you have a actual kennel setup with 5+ dogs then I don't see the point. What if one takes the muzzle of and the other doesn't and gets attacked?


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

see thats what i thought , I have never muzzle dmy dogs EVER and dont plan on it , but i know when we used the cribbing cages on a couple of the horses at the barn they can get those off if they try hard enough wasnt sure if the muzzles would be the same and slip off. We used the halti on a couple dogs before and Rocky used to wriggle out of that really quick and it was pretty snug on his nose. 
We are set up here for everyone to have there own place so it isnt like its an option here was just curious if others had this way of thinking and could explain it to me better cause i just didnt get it. Even if they were muzzled it isnt like it would all be good and relaxing there would be so much to worry about if one slipped off .


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## Trojanboi400 (Sep 1, 2011)

angelbaby said:


> Ya see this same person who I have talked with about this breed numerous times is convinced its how you train them, wheni make a statement about no its in there blood there DNA its how they were bred and no matter how you train them its stillbound to come out at some point you cant train this out of them , he disagrees lol. Kinda frustrating .


Yeah you are trying to train out years of DA...haha good luck. My Cookie shows the most DA and she is my most loyal so I let her know I do not allow that behavior at all. If she walks away from an annoying dog during walks she knows she will get her fav treat & toy. I reward them great for walking away from other dogs. She was actually attacked from behind by a beagle that got away from his handler smh. I kicked the beagle & picked cookie up. sucks but she is one of my kids too. Since then beagles are the only dogs that she will go crazy after


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Ya I have a couple who just cant be together they seem fine with other dogs but just not eachother , for that reason I just dont interact with other dogs period it just isnt worth the risk I dont know who the next one they wont like will come along. I have girls who all seemed to get along until recently so it has really opened my eyes { should have known better , but I bought into they are fine havent been aggressive ever got too comfortable and let my guard down} Big mistake on my part so now im just noone is togther unless im there ontop of them and certain ones will never be together ever again , Its not in the training at all my dogs all listen great to me they never show aggression to people best pets ever for my kids but DA is just there. makes me mad when this buddy trys to make it out that i havent trained them well enough , how they wouldnt fight if I had been ontop of the training level. I kinda just turned my cheek to that convo now lol , he is right in his eyes and Im right in mine so will just have to agree to disagree then.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

he pretty much doesnt understand wanting to keep them apart , feels they should be able to play LOL.


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## Trojanboi400 (Sep 1, 2011)

Like you said...some may be able to play for a short time and others aren't. It depends on the dogs. My min pin mix doesn't play with any dogs ever lol she's a loner. You can only work on DA I don't think you can eliminate it


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## Xiahko (Feb 24, 2010)

IMO that would only trigger more aggression,depending on the dog,cause they feel they can't protect themselves and act out more with them on.
At least the dogs I have seen were that way.


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## PerfectPit (Aug 2, 2010)

I have 2 dogs, 1 Mastiff mix who is DA and an APBT who isn't. We had a serious incident. This is when we found out my Mastiff was DA. It was h*ll getting them apart. We started crate/rotate. After a period of time, my husband was careless and thought they could be together again. Boy was he fooled. My Mastiff ended up with 12 stitches and 3 months of healing. Now they are Never together. Placing a muzzle on a dog to keep them "together" only causes stress on the dog and more frustration. I choose to muzzle them in public on a walk for no other reason then so no one can say my dogs bit someone/animal and to go to the vets. Our crate/rotate system in our house is the use of baby gates. They learned they are a "no go" area and they honor it. Each dog has his own bedroom each one spends time in there to eat, play or have quiet time. When we leave, one is placed in "his" room while the other roams free. the one in the room has a baby gate placed across the doorway along with the door being closed. They each get free time to spend with the family and everyone is safe and happy.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Depends on the dog and the situation you put them in. For instance mine have to be muzzled when going to the vet or heavy traffic areas. One of my dogs is highly DA and HA the other is highly DA.. Both very reactive when it comes to dogs. Muzzles really don't change the behavior that much, fairly consistent. If i were to put them in a stressful situation than naturally being restricted this will cause a higher level of reaction vs not muzzled. 

I wouldn't use (nor trust) putting muzzles on a dog just for the sake of letting them "live" together. Thats pretty idiotic and adding more stress on a dog than needed.

Crate and rotate works, cuts down on stress and ensures (At least as much as possible) that the dogs will be safe from each other. Why someone would want to increase the risk, add stress to their dogs for the sake of attempting what is already known to be a failure is beyond me.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Xiahko said:


> IMO that would only trigger more aggression,depending on the dog,cause they feel they can't protect themselves and act out more with them on.
> At least the dogs I have seen were that way.


Ya see I thought the same thing I know how my dogs dont like to be held back and holding them back can make them more excited I should say then if I were to casually let them meet , they dont tend to like restraints. So putting that on i would expect to see them act more aggitated and not be able to enjoy there time out together as this person seems to think they will lol.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

The only way to deal with DA is to keep the dogs out of each others faces. Crate and rotate is really the only way to avoid the issue. Theres a time and place for a muzzle. you may be able to handle your dog in public just fine around other dogs but to expect them to co exist with a muzzle is wishfull thinking.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I would use muzzle's to breed DA dog's that's it.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

PerfectPit said:


> I have 2 dogs, 1 Mastiff mix who is DA and an APBT who isn't. We had a serious incident. This is when we found out my Mastiff was DA. It was h*ll getting them apart. We started crate/rotate. After a period of time, my husband was careless and thought they could be together again. Boy was he fooled. My Mastiff ended up with 12 stitches and 3 months of healing. Now they are Never together. Placing a muzzle on a dog to keep them "together" only causes stress on the dog and more frustration. I choose to muzzle them in public on a walk for no other reason then so no one can say my dogs bit someone/animal and to go to the vets. Our crate/rotate system in our house is the use of baby gates. They learned they are a "no go" area and they honor it. Each dog has his own bedroom each one spends time in there to eat, play or have quiet time. When we leave, one is placed in "his" room while the other roams free. the one in the room has a baby gate placed across the doorway along with the door being closed. They each get free time to spend with the family and everyone is safe and happy.


Do you find you get a worse response from those walking by you when you have a muzzle on your dog? I always thought it was such a bad visual for the breed and always been so against them { other then those that truely need it , but im kinda on the belief if a dog is that aggressive it shouldnt be off the property} . I wish mine could get away with baby gates seperating them that wouldnt fly here at all they would be over under and through that gate before I could do anything im sure lol. Mine each have a crate for night time in various rooms where they each sleep with the exception of crush he sleeps in the bed or in the closet when he gets kicked out lol. Even if we leave I crate them all with the exception of 1. I had the experience { not with this breed} but we had left a dog in a bedroom one day for 2 hours while we had to run out and came home to the door chewed on the bottom and her running free so im not comfortable just leaving a door to seperate them lol although the baby gate on the closed door may help that situation for you.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

redog said:


> The only way to deal with DA is to keep the dogs out of each others faces. Crate and rotate is really the only way to avoid the issue. Theres a time and place for a muzzle. you may be able to handle your dog in public just fine around other dogs but to expect them to co exist with a muzzle is wishfull thinking.


:goodpost:


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## Trojanboi400 (Sep 1, 2011)

Maybe your friend was thinking in the sense of wolf/wild dog packs how they live together. IDK I just can't see 5-10 APBTs running freely on someone's yard. That's just asking for trouble. You should show him this thread


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

angelbaby said:


> SO was siting here talking with a friend of ours about the breed and DA especially how its a concern here with multiples and anyone else who owns multiples. We were going over about how we rotate dogs between crates and dog runs and kennels ect and all thats involved. He asked why we dont just get them the cages and let them all be together he seems to think they may bump cages a few times realize they cant do anything and get over it.
> My feelings on this is I would still be on edge if they happened to get it off I think its a risk not needed ,{ i dont have experience with muzzles so not sure how easy a task this would be to get off} and I just think it would be stressfull would be like living with someone you hate so bad and having your hands tied behind your back lol. I know its not an option in my yard I just dont like the visual look of a dog in muzzle I think its bad for the breeds image { however I know its needed in some cases and can respect that , it has a place and time IMO} .
> Was wondering what others thought of this and if anyone has tried this method or have experience with muzzles and what you saw behaviour wise from the dog wearing it , did they become more aggressive or did they seem defeated and calmed down ? does it efect them at all?


yeah..... not at all smart or anything I would do......


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Trojanboi400 said:


> Maybe your friend was thinking in the sense of wolf/wild dog packs how they live together. IDK I just can't see 5-10 APBTs running freely on someone's yard. That's just asking for trouble. You should show him this thread


ya I know right I havent seen anyone with large packs have them roaming free and never have a problem. I doubt he will see this thread but it will give me more facts and storys to share with him if he wants to bring this up again lol. Like I said he is probably stuck in his ways and I can only argue my side so much till its beatin up lol. Id have a hard time with a vet wanting me to muzzle my dog { the 24 hour vet here asks you too if you have a pitbull before you even walk in the office LOL} unless it is justifiably called for ,let alone muzzle my dog in its own home.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Trojanboi400 said:


> Maybe your friend was thinking in the sense of wolf/wild dog packs how they live together. IDK I just can't see 5-10 APBTs running freely on someone's yard. That's just asking for trouble. You should show him this thread


Years ago I did have many dogs living together till they killed my BC and when they matured they could no longer be together.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Its all common sense and thats all there really is to it.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> Its all common sense and thats all there really is to it.


LOL I thought alot of it was common sense then i ran into people like this friend and started reading peoples posts on CL , you'd be surprised LOL. wont even go into what i saw on CL today made me just close that down lol.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

angelbaby said:


> LOL I thought alot of it was common sense then i ran into people like this friend and started reading peoples posts on CL , you'd be surprised LOL. wont even go into what i saw on CL today made me just close that down lol.


Well people that lack common sense probably shouldn't own a dog. lol At least not a dog that requires a thought process centered around common sense. If a dog is DA it is DA.. Sure with training it is possible to some degree for these dogs to work together for achievement however there are many variables to that success.

Those with the experience should be the voices that guide not only where the breed goes but how to handle, properly on all levels. Instead it seems its all too common for those that are inexperienced to attempt to "teach" the experienced. Those inexperienced are definitely the first voices heard by other inexperienced.

I'm not shocked by CL anymore, or by any ad or media outlet. I think its common for people to just get bored and start making up something that sells..Whether its BYB's, news or any other person.


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## PerfectPit (Aug 2, 2010)

No I live in a country setting and have several neighbors with APBT and AmStaff's. However most of them let them run free or tied to a flimsy chain which irritates me. I do have neighbor across the street that has 3 ankle biters. I swear he waits for me to come out then decides to let his dogs out loose tempting fate with my two. We mostly walk them in the wooded area and down the street. I have never taken them to a public area to walk other then around my neighborhood. My mastiff is 8y/o so he is pretty layed back when in his room sleeping in front of the air conditioner. His target is his brother lol. He is good with other dogs. We tried a crate with the APBT and he went crazy. Bucking and growling and we found it tipped over when we got home. (I think his previous owner use to lock him in it for days and he panics. When the previous owner dropped him off for us to doggy sit. He said stick the crate in the middle of the backyard, put him in it and leave him there, he'll be fine. They never came back for him) He does better having the freedom in his bedroom with his loveseat,queen size bed and toys. Gates work well for us they seem to steer clear of them. When we say "room" they go directly to their room.


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## YAHHOO (Nov 27, 2010)

If you have game dogs and tried to muzzle them they would probably kill there selves from exhaustion or destroy the muzzles and you would come home to a blood bath. Pretty much the dumbest idea I have ever heard lmao. Bulldogs will try to fight muzzle or no muzzle and they don't know the meaning of quit so they might lack their mouth but could easily die of heat stroke etc.


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## diegodog (Oct 27, 2010)

ok... uh hum... spanner in the works here.
seeing that we are now going down the "pits running freely together" topic.
I will mention muzzles in the below aswell 

I believe (from first hand experience) that you can teach DA dogs to get along.
(and I know exactly what your responses are going to be, that my dogs are not APBT but rather Petbulls or AMSTAFFS.
please spare those comments as I've heard it all.... 
if you feel the need to say that then just read what this topic is about... its about DA and not neccessarily what is defined as a true bull dog or PIT DOG...). My dogs are true APBT and I dare you to bring your dogs onto my yard and tell me otherwise.

Dogs are PACK animals... END OF STORY.
THEY WANT TO BE IN A PACK, THEY WANT TO HAVE A PLACE IN A PACK AND HAVE A LEADER.
IF TWO DOGS CAN TRUST EACHOTHER, THEN THERE IS NO NEED TO BE DA

sorry for you but if you cant control your dogs and are forced to rotate and crate and chain then maybe you should have a long hard look at yourself.

my mother in law runs a rescue centre here in South Africa. 
she currently has the following

1 Chow (Male)
1 Bull Terrier (Female)
1 GSD (Male)
1 Mix (Female)
6 APBT (2 Male, 4 Female)
2 APBT pups (1 Male, 1 Female)

so thats 12 dogs... "currently" all running free... 
NEVER have there been any issues/breakouts/fights with the APBT's, and I mean NEVER. The only issue that ever happened was between the Male Chow and the Male GSD and its never happened again.

I often visit her with my own 3 APBT's (1 Male, 1 Female, 1 Female pup) over the weekends.
so thats then 15 dogs, and other friends also visit, so the most I think we've ever had was just under 20 dogs at one time.. never had an incident. And I'm willing to place a bet of any amount that nothing will happen.

Yes, its true. Whenever she gets/got a new APBT we had issues introducing them into the pack, lots of DA was experienced and it did seem impossible to integrate the new dogs into the existing pack.

but with a lot of hard work, some patience, some know how and persistence, we got it right.
to give you an idea of how much "HATE" would flow around when introducing the dogs...

if I touched dog A and then wanted to touch dog B.
Dog B would growl at the smell on my hand....

We worked through that... no crates, no chains, no runs.
we used muzzles, and the muzzles did not make the dogs more DA. In fact it calmed them down. It showed them that they cannot hurt one another and cant be hurt by others and allowed the dogs the chance to interact, smell eachothers bums, run around together, sit next to each other all in 100% safety. 
The muzzles (if you buy the proper ones) are literally impossible to get off. I would not leave them on the dogs unsupervised though. Thats a no no...

yes this breed is bred to be DA... and my dogs and all my mother in laws dogs are DA no doubt. But that doesnt mean they have to be DA to dogs on their own yard. Thats just madness.

In my eyes if your dogs are DA to dogs on their own yard that they are around (just out of reach) 24/7, then there is something wrong and the dynamics are not right.

Have you thought of it this way... if you keep dog A on chain setup A just out of reach of dog B on chain setup B... all day long and have never put one second of work in to get them to socialise or "meet" one another like dogs, then its as though you are teasing your dogs all day and you are indirectly encouraging this DA behaviour. You are never giving dog A the oppurtunity to trust dog B.

Thats all it is... TRUST. 
a dog is DA because it believes that the other dog is there to harm it and its got to do what it has to do to protect itself.

And... what is the freaking point of having more than one dog if you are convinced that they cannot get along with other dogs on your own yard, and your life becomes a misery of crating and rotating and worrying about if the dogs going to get off the chain and cause a "yard accident". You only have yourself to blame.

pics to show you that its possible

my male and female at my house.

















The pits at the rescue
(from left to right - Brandy(white), Aurora(black n white), Diego (Tan), Zoey(Yellow), Bella(yellow), Baxter(Yellow/orange), Riley(Chocolate), Blade(Chocolate))









playing fetch with all the ApBT's and a bull terrier... no DA even when a toy/ball was introduced









































































chewing pine cones right next to eachother









walking 









playing









sleeping 









and this is how they live... from Monday to Sunday, 24 hours a day.
now tell me its not possible to take DA out the picture and teach a dog to relax and be a dog. 
its all about hard work and time


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I seriously think you are asking for trouble . I have multiple dogs who do get along and have beenfine together for years then BAM all of a sudden somethin happens and its not just my story its alot of peoples storys. You can NOT train DA out of them you may be able to make them adjust to eachother and be able to live harmoniously together but there is always a chance , you leaving them all together like that we are going to see a huge yard fight at some point especially if they are left together unsupervised. 
I feel your post is going to give new memebers here a FALSE sense of security in owning multiples this is an ultimate FAIL IMO on owning this breed. YOu say if we cant own multiples without crates and rotating we should look at ourselves? there are some great dog trainers on here who do that because they know you cannot train DA out of a dog , you can control it in SOME to a certain degree under SUPERVISION and a lucky few that just dont show DA at all but never do any of them leave them out unsupervised. 
You made a comment about a dog growling at you because of the scent? thats a load of trash IMO a dog growling at you no matter the scent or anything they know its you they know you arent a dog and if a dog growled at me like that I would seriously reconsider that dog and what the temperment is on it. Thats not DA that sounds more HA.
You can have your opinion and I hope for your dogs sake they continue to live like that but I honestly think you are asking for trouble and I hope noone new comes on here and buys into that.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

You cannot take DA out of a dog. There are different levels of DA, but whatever level of DA that dog has, is what it has. You can't change it. You can manage the situation, you can socialize and socialize and socialize and teach your dog behavior that is acceptable to you and what you believe is an acceptable response, but you can't change their level of DA. So, if you have a DA dog that is to the point where they will try to actively go after other dogs, you can't change that, but you can teach your dog that while they are on a walk with you, they are to focus on just walking and ignore other dogs.

You're lucky enough that the dogs you have all seem to be rather dog tolerant. But it only takes one dog to upset the balance.


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## Blue_Nose_Bella (Jan 16, 2011)

diegodog said:


> ok... uh hum... spanner in the works here.
> seeing that we are now going down the "pits running freely together" topic.
> I will mention muzzles in the below aswell
> 
> ...


Good luck with your way of thinking and your dogs living in peace and tranquility for a lifetime. DA is DA and you can't train it out of them but you can manage it. Your dogs living as a pack freely will only lead you to heartbreak when you come home to a dead dog one day or a dog suffers severe injury from a fight. Anything can trigger a dog into a fight especially if you have several intact males and females living together. I know most people who have two male dogs that can't be free together because the result will not be a good one. You are setting your dogs up for failure and heartbreak for yourself. I would also lay off the Cesar Milan mentality.......he is the "dog whisperer" after all.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

diegodog said:


> ok... uh hum... spanner in the works here.
> seeing that we are now going down the "pits running freely together" topic.
> I will mention muzzles in the below aswell
> 
> ...


If you seriously believe that because your mother can have MIXED MUTTS together that means APBTs can do the same you are seriously confused. A purebred dog is completely different. Just because YOU happen to have dogs that are able to be together does not mean it is normal for the breed or a risk worth taking. You choose to risk your dogs getting into a fight and killing one another thats up to you. Just because it hasn't happened does not mean your dogs will never fight. You have no understanding of TRUE DA and sadly people like you are what causes other people to get their dogs killed thinking that they can do these things as well.

BTW I had a friend with two 7 year olds and three 5-6 year old dogs that had been raised together fine with no issues. She came home to 2 dead, 1 died at the vet and the other 2 where mangled beyond belief. You choose to risk an animal that trust you to keep it safe like I said thats your business, but these dogs are DA by nature, you do not train it out of them, and being in denial of this and trying to pretend it something else just because YOU don't want DA is setting yourself and your dogs up for failure.

No your dogs are not DA or they could be together like that. I don't think you have any idea what DA is. :hammer::hammer:

PS Pine Cones can be deadly to dogs... Another thing you guys seem to not be caring about protecting your dogs from. Pine Cones are not toys get them bones.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

What is your point diegodog? I have game bred dog's that will tolerate each other I am not stupid enough to believe that this can't change or that I am above several years of genetics. I take a chance every time I let my dog's play together I know every time there is a possibility that these dog's could fight. Your thinking is warped and delusional it would be different if you understood and respected the breeds genetic make up. However with comments like this " I believe (from first hand experience) that you can teach DA dogs to get along." I know you have never seen DA or game dog's rip each other apart. DA can't be trained away it can be controlled by means of separation. You have different levels of DA and some dog's are selectively DA where they may tolerate some dogs but not others. Then you have dog's who will not tolerate any dog at all doesn't matter whose dog it is. The bottom line is these dog's are bred to fight and you can't just ignore that now you may very well believe what you tell yourself but I promise you there will come a day where your dog's are going to show you otherwise I feel sorry for you having that many dog's to break up hope you have enough bodies and break sticks readily available because your going to need it.

3 Game Bred APBT's all playing together this mean's nothing to me I know this can change at any given point!


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## diegodog (Oct 27, 2010)

LOL... all the responses I expected. 
you guys dont know me... you dont know exactly how experienced I am,
I could be a newbie or I could be involved in the dogs for over 20years... you dont know me. so LOL at you. 
my mutts will not fight.... because they are apparently not purebred so what you so worried about LOL... pfft...you guys make me laugh. Do you know how my own dogs are bred? do you know anything about the lines we have in this country?

You sit here scaring the crap out of people about these dogs saying that the moment its off the chain its like some killing machine that cant be stopped like a Great White Shark, and then claim that people shouldnt be scared of them and they are an amazing breed and can be trusted, you tell them they are stable and unwaivering... no wonder the publics perception is so "warped". The dogs own owners keep them all chained and crated up like one would keep lions and tigers.

I know I've upset some of you's because what I had to say is really confrontational and hard to swallow for you guys with "Real Dogs" and I accept your responses, Hell... I'd have responded the same if my mind set was STILL in the pre 1970's.

if you really have a problem with this... please delete my posts and all replies to my post and delete my account I have no issues. I dont want to be part of a forum community that is not willing to look forward, but rather keeps looking backwards at the "great dogmen" of the past.

this is truly sad and shocking...... 
HAve you thought about this.... Seeing that [] is illegal. What the frik is the point of having a DA pitbull these days... why is DA still a part of this breeds genes? because deep inside you all love the fact that this dog is a fighting breed, but yet you cant do anything about it... so you submit the dogs you love to chains and crates and cages .... again like lions and tigers in a zoo. And you sit back and look at them all proud and pat yourself on the back for owning a dog that you cant do anything with, but admire it from a distance.

oh yes... the point is gameness.... LOL
the true gameness that you are all looking for only exists in dogs few and far between... lets say for every ten dogs, your lucky to get 1 really and truly game one... 
Sounds like a poor business plan to me, and sounds to me like you "genuine breeders" are just exploiting the breed just as badly as the Back Yard Breeder's you all despise.
and again... what is the point of this "true gameness" any more... where does it get used...
as far as I know none of you are living in China or Croatia or Russia... so why the game dogs?

Apparently a dog pulling 5tons or hanging for 3+ hours or jumping 2.5 meters is not gameness.
Why exactly are you guys so keen on owning a GAME to the bone pitbull and having it chained up all day, for its entire life?

its like owning a ferrari in a country that only has dirt roads and no freeways

What is the point.....
I've been around, I've seen how this breed is starting to change for the good. How about being a part of that instead of sitting scared to death of your own pets killing each other.

oh... and someone made a comment about pine cones being deadly to dogs and not toys and I should give them bones... ... deadly pine cones??? how so? 
please do tell me oh wise one... they not poisonous.. and the dogs dont eat them...

oh and go to any good vet... they will advise you against giving dogs bones, why?
just ask them exactly how many dogs they've had to cut open and dislodge bones in... 
if you knew anything you'd know that modern day breeds are not equipped to eat bones, they are not wolves... do you even know how a wolfs digestive system works?
go read up on it and see exactly how a wolf gets rid of the bones its eaten... they are usually the last to be (for lack of a better word) cr*pped out and are coated in the hair of the animal they ate, so as to protect the intestines and so on... but ya.. good advice for newbies... throw them dogs a bone. LOL


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Gameness has nothing to do with Da no one brought gameness into this thread but you. Leave gameness out of this conversation because it has nothing to do with dog aggression gameness is a trait unique to box dog's *ONLY *and unless your actively game testing dog's and fighting them you don't know anything about Gameness and that word has no business coming out of your mouth. Dog aggression cannot be trained away if you have owned true DA dog's you would know this. Your not doing anything special or different with your dogs you either have DA dog's or you don't let's not go painting false pictures to save public face. Da only means that an animal will not tolerate other dogs period it has nothing to do with gameness. There are plenty of DA cur's.

My response to Your comment below:

*so you submit the dogs you love to chains and crates and cages .... again like lions and tigers in a zoo. And you sit back and look at them all proud and pat yourself on the back for owning a dog that you cant do anything with, but admire it from a distance.
*
Really I just showed you my 3 game bred HOUSE dog's they are not confined to chain's and are only crated when I am not able to supervise because it's the responsible thing to do! Chaining and Crating is not a death sentence it's done for the dog's protection as well as for the safety of other dog's in society. Chaining is very humane when done properly.

Your statements are ignorant and people like yourself are reason why people get these dog's and take them to the dog parks off the leash and end up looking like a complete fool when their sweet innocent pet bull kill's someone's innocent dog! Dog men bred these dog's to fight they are genetically hardwired to fight that mean's at any given point these dog's could decide not to accept other dogs. This is not to scare anyone! DO NOT BUY a DA dog if you don't want to deal with the repercussions or if your goal is to turn them into something other than what they were bred to be. Get a damn poodle! Why the hell would you buy a DA breed and then want it to behave like a lab? Your not even making logical sense right now. That is like me buying a ban dog bred to guard and trying to train it not to guard or show HA give me a break you have know idea how idiotic you sound right now. If you enjoy your pet bull's that's great but do us a favor and don't try and tell other's that these dog's can be trained to ignore their genetics because that's a bunch of BS!

These 3 dog's have been raised indoor's around kid's so your comment's about game bred dog's being left out on chains to rot away from human affection are a bunch of hog wash! You sound like a peta hugger right now and your comment's and stereotypes are so far from reality!

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [175576] :: AKA X FINALE










ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [328954] :: A'S BOGART










ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [393731] :: MONSTERBOSS KENNELS IZZIE


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## Luvum (Nov 11, 2010)

Holly, I get it that you strongly disagree with what Diego is saying. But there's no need to disrespect his (mom's) dogs by calling them MIXED MUTTS when you have no knowledge of them.
I'm not trying to start anything, but I think it's wrong and I think you can still get your point across with out slamming those dogs in the process.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

The public perception is warped because idiot misguided, uneducated pet bull owner's LIE to the public and tell them these dog's can get along with other dog's it's all in how you " RAISE " them until their pet bull get's loose and kill's someone's dog then they look stupid! This is a lie coming from people who have no business owning these dogs and do not respect dog men or the history of this breed they buy these dog's with false expectations and responsible owner's like myself end up paying the price for their delusional way of thinking. Dog men said it a million times do not trust these dogs not to fight! WTH makes you think you know more than the creator's of these dogs? I find it very funny that people like yourself have no respect for the breed's history or the men behind the dogs yet they own a whole house full of them! Why do you own a breed your ashamed of? You do not have to be actively fighting these dog's to respect their history and genetic make up. It's disrespectful to the many game dog's and dog men of the past to ignore the reason these dog's were even bred for to begin with. If it wasn't for those dog men and game dog's of the past you wouldn't have your dogs! So do not disrespect the breeds history on this forum or the men responsible for these dog's even being in our hands you don't have the right to criticize or judge these men they have done more for the breed than you or I could ever do!


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

first off every body chillax



diegodog said:


> LOL... all the responses I expected.
> you guys dont know me... you dont know exactly how experienced I am,
> I could be a newbie or I could be involved in the dogs for over 20years... you dont know me. so LOL at you.
> my mutts will not fight.... because they are apparently not purebred so what you so worried about LOL... pfft...you guys make me laugh. Do you know how my own dogs are bred? do you know anything about the lines we have in this country?
> ...


i have a feeling i know your experience...



> Hi guys
> 
> i'm from south africa.
> i've had pits for 2 years now.
> Got a brother and sister (Diego and Aurora)


this was last year so i take it you have three years experience... also do you even know how you dogs are bred?

its best to say that these dogs are hard wired to fight its more than a fact and i know its happened happened in my neighbors yard when i was 16 and once one of em clicked it was on every chance they got. these were pet quality dogs probably off some poorly bred bitch and sire not show dogs or game dogs. but why even chance it the point is to keep our dogs out of the medias eye or the publics eyes no one needs to see these dogs fight, you said you reside in south africa you probably dont know the issues we run into on a day to day basis the worrys some of us have because of our dogs breed. some of the people here have to go to meetings to stand up for their rights some of us cant give up our dogs because of a ban or the dog went and bit something so once again why chance it. i under stand we need to move forward but if we move forward the world is gonna move backwards. this breed has a hard history for people to understand its part of americas history and our herritage a few people here may have been around familys who bred game dogs in the pre 76 world and it could be the last thing they have to feel connected to their grandfather or father, every one has a right to own what ever dog they want, but is every one responsible enough?

on the subject of pine cones...
Digestive Dangers
Cones, straw and needles pose a risk to a dog because of sharp ends and points, which can perforate or puncture the stomach or intestines if eaten by a dog. Because these objects aren't easily digestible, they can cause blockages in the stomach and digestive tract, which may require surgery.

Pine Oil
Pine oil or sap, found in pine needles, is a mild irritant to dogs. According to the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA), if a significant quantity of pine needles are ingested, a dog may experience "gastrointestinal irritation and minor nervous system depression."

uncooked bones are fine to give dogs unlike cooked bones that splinter and can get lodged in the throat. i dont know about africa but our animals dont come pre cooked within 2 seconds of being killed.

now can we please close this thread before it gets way outta hand?


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

You also need to read this! Since you have no idea about human tethering.

http://www.ncraoa.com/PDF/Tethering/TetheringPenning.pdf


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

"If you tell a man there are 270,678,984,341 stars in the universe, he will believe you. But if you put up a sign saying "KEEP THESE DOGS SEPARATED, OR THEY WILL FIGHT", that man has to make a personal investigation".

Earl Tudor.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

aus_staffy said:


> "If you tell a man there are 270,678,984,341 stars in the universe, he will believe you. But if you put up a sign saying "KEEP THESE DOGS SEPARATED, OR THEY WILL FIGHT", that man has to make a personal investigation".
> 
> Earl Tudor.


One of my favorite quotes! And so damn true!:goodpost:


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

aus_staffy said:


> "If you tell a man there are 270,678,984,341 stars in the universe, he will believe you. But if you put up a sign saying "KEEP THESE DOGS SEPARATED, OR THEY WILL FIGHT", that man has to make a personal investigation".
> 
> Earl Tudor.


thats a good quote... the only reason its even like that is cause its boring to count that high.


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Sadie said:


> One of my favorite quotes! And so damn true!:goodpost:


Someone on here had it in their sig. Might even have been you and this thread made me think of it.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

doubt any one read my sig but this is what diegodog needs to understand....



> Pit Bull is a fighting dog bred down from many generations of fighting dogs to even consider raising one of these dogs as a pet you must understand this and accept it-even if you are totally opposed to dog fighting. No matter how you raise this dog he will still be a Pit Bull not a golden retriever!


 -the complete gamedog book 2


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

aus_staffy said:


> Someone on here had it in their sig. Might even have been you and this thread made me think of it.


It was me  LOL


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## aus_staffy (Nov 10, 2009)

Sadie said:


> It was me  LOL


Haha! I thought it might have been you! You should have left it there and saved me having to go digging around the interwebz for it:roll:


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## diegodog (Oct 27, 2010)

hahaa.. ok
listen guys. Never did I tell any one to let their dogs run around the park unleashed.
IM AGAINST THAT. 
I just stated that there should be no reason why DA should be on ones own yard.


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## diegodog (Oct 27, 2010)

my experience is longer than 2-3 years.
I had pits a long time ago, only recently got back into the dogs. thus I got my "current" curs....


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

diegodog said:


> hahaa.. ok
> listen guys. Never did I tell any one to let their dogs run around the park unleashed.
> IM AGAINST THAT.
> *I just stated that there should be no reason why DA should be on ones own yard.*


:hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer:

You should not own an APBT bottom line or anything mixed with possible APBT blood if you feel this way. These dog's are DA it's not an opinion it's a fact. And until you accept your dog's history you are setting them up to fail and should not own them. I am closing this thread because we promote responsible breed ownership here. We do not lie to people about these dog's and how they were bred to be we teach people how to properly care for them and promote them responsibly to the public eye. False teachings do this breed no good. If you want to gamble with your dog's lives they are your animals and you are responsible for what happens to them and what they do to other dogs. But this community works hard to teach the newcomer's to the breed the truth about these dogs and we will not allow anyone to spread false information on this forum.


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## stonerreakinhavok (May 22, 2011)

you dont get it... these dogs have been bred for a long period of time to fight, if you let them fight they will fight, because of being bred like this these dogs tend to be dog aggressive, its acceptable because its just how these dogs can be if you go around culling every dog aggressive dog on every ones yard all the best dogs will be gone and you'r left with dogs that dont have drive and wont work whether its [], hunting, pulling, or what ever you fancy as well as some of these dogs that happen to be dog aggresive. and people continue to breed dogs for purrposes that are illegal in the us but are not illegal where they live so they still have that original purpose in some places so until a world wide ban on pit bulls and dog fighting takes place then they're are always gonna be dog aggressive dogs.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Luvum said:


> Holly, I get it that you strongly disagree with what Diego is saying. But there's no need to disrespect his (mom's) dogs by calling them MIXED MUTTS when you have no knowledge of them.
> I'm not trying to start anything, but I think it's wrong and I think you can still get your point across with out slamming those dogs in the process.


A rescue dog is just that. I am sorry but if you think a rescue dog gets be be labeled purebred because it looks like a breed that on you. A shelter dog is a MUTT until proven otherwise.

If you want to think all the shelter dogs his mom has a purbred thats on you.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

awww man he got banned before I could comment! no fun! lol
You can't fix stupid!


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