# Explain this please True APBT vs AKC



## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

I came across this today and was wondering how you explain this , I have heard everyone explain about true APBT and how they arent true to some of you unless proven but this kinda goes against SOME of what SOME of you said. Here is a AKC bred dog who has champed in the ADBA as you can see marked here, so were they one in the same back then or would you still count this as am staff? { he is blue too lol, thought Id throw that out there} just interested to hear what info you have on this particular dog and how you would view this dog today. Would this dog be counted as a watchdog? I dont know APBT lines very well but isnt watchdog am staff? I dont know the top half though.
BullyPedia|The American Bully Online Pedigree Database


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

Everyone always believed the fights were fabricated. That's what I always heard. That dog has been talked about forever!! Read this old thread

http://www.gopitbull.com/keith-cane76-campos/1788-turpins-blu-trouble.html


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Thank you Rob great link , I was looking for info on him on here too just couldnt find it a million other threads came up not about him lol. So aside from his box matches or whatever would you consider and is he considered am staff still? was it common to use am staffs in the box like that? or would he be a mix?


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## Kingsgurl (Dec 16, 2011)

AKC dogs were bred down off the same dogs, though the focus in what they were breeding for shifted. You get hot dogs off cold breedings and you get cold dogs off of hot breedings. The great divide between APBT and Am Staff came because of trying to legitimize the breed as something more than a fighter, and continues today, only now there are even more factions at play. You have the 'if it ain't fought, it ain't real' camp, who legitimize even a horribly put together dog if it wins in the box, you have your breeders going for the look and drive, legally channeled (this faction seems smallest) and you have your, newer to the scene Am Bully breeders who want to cling to the APBT name, but are breeding for something that looks totally different and want to claim their own breed, while refusing to give up the 'pit bull' part.
The extreme opposites represented by those who 'champion' the breed result in a lot of infighting and is probably one of the main reasons we are unable to fight for the breed as a united front.
/drunken tangent


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## thatruth832 (Feb 20, 2012)

I have had this discussion with friends of mine who "know everything there is to know about pits" and its rediculous.. From what I have read and looked up online they are the same dog jus different kennel club standards..


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Just wanted to say, this boy is on the bottom half of Ices' and Rebel's ped (Dixieland's pup) that we got from Jessie (Circle M Kennels). I'm still learning to read peds thoroughly, but it seems to me that this boy was a product of an outcross from dual-registered AKC/UKC parents, if I'm reading this correctly. I've obviously got some more studying to do, so don't quote me on that. But I'm eager and willing to learn if I'm right or wrong here, lol.

From my understanding, as long as I've been into the breed and learning about lines and peds, the Turpins, TNT, Watchdog were all game-bred lines. I could be wrong, though, and would love for someone to guide me in the right direction. Where's my buddy Stan!?

Viewing Pedigree Details for Maynard's "Bewildered Ices" - Bully Breed Resource


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't think I would go as far as to call tnt,turpins,falins,etc... game bred.I do believe that watchdog started that way but has since moved in a different direction.Someone please tell me if I'm wrong.

And angelbaby,I would still consider that dog an amstaff even if it does have box wins.The same would go for an ambully.Just because it wins in the box doesn't change what it is.I do totally get what you're saying though.Sometimes it seems kinda confusing with apbt's,amstaffs,[] wins,confo wins,what makes an apbt an apbt and not an amstaff........lol


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

Thank you all for the info , ya I thought if looking at blood that dog would be more am staff { although there are some names on that ped I dont know so figured Id ask}. Lady Pit I thought someone told me watchdog was more am staff but maybe they were wrong or maybe thats what the watchdog moved into later on ? I dont know lol, Im still learning this too and with APBT lines your probably way ahead of me lol. He was a pretty dog though .


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

It boils down to function and ability.. Breeding true to registry standards is fine if you are still instilling function, however most (not all) its one way or the other.. Any dog from APBT bloodline, bred towards show that has no function or ability in a working environment is just an AST that doesn't conform to the AST standards.. At least, more than likely in that particular generation.

Hay day hounds earned the right to be called APBTs, otherwise all Bulldogs or Bandogs. (which not the same sense as Bandog Mastiff.. Larger, unproven Bulldogs) 

Even with the ADBA, regardless of judges and who runs it.. You'd be extremely hard pressed to find an APBT that followed suit to the fore-mentioned, some are Bulldogs and some are ASTs to a different name.

It is all in who you ask honestly, it seems this type of standard held towards the hound is slowly dying and being replaced with registry and other non traditional means.. 

As for the ped, just all over the place.. Some game dogs, some bulldogs and some amstaffs.. If that is even a legit ped and not hung or forged..


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

So KM would you be more inclined to call that dog scatter bred or because of the box wins would you call him a bulldog? if its legit , reading robs link I guess this dog is questioned by alot of people but wouldnt he be considered "proven" as an APBT ? or doesn that come hand in hand with the appropriate ped as well? I understood from you mostly that for a true APBT it had to be proven , if this dogs wins are real it would be proven right?


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

angelbaby said:


> So KM would you be more inclined to call that dog scatter bred or because of the box wins would you call him a bulldog? if its legit , reading robs link I guess this dog is questioned by alot of people but wouldnt he be considered "proven" as an APBT ? or doesn that come hand in hand with the appropriate ped as well? I understood from you mostly that for a true APBT it had to be proven , if this dogs wins are real it would be proven right?


If we are to say the wins are legit and the wins are not that of show nature or anything other than the true defining work of the APBT, than yes that dog would be proven and the right to be called as such regardless of scatter bred.. Or at very least, just be called a pit dog as reference to what the hound has accomplished.. However, i have my doubts.. Theres MUCH to question just based on the ped and the dog alone.. If there was a recent game dog that could be said as a "blue dog" in color, this would be something special and in all sense of the word, rare. I won't say its fraud or not 100% as i don't know who the kennel or handlers are nor do i know the dog first hand, so it could theoretically be true but there is more evidence that points towards fraud than anything. I'm sure if one did some research on the dogs in the ped, the kennel, etc you would have your answer without a doubt.

I, personally don't think its worth my time so i will just leave it at that.. There are hundreds claiming to have this or that, its not worth it to me to go around and be a police for every single thing..

Generalized i will say.. (world wide speaking, of course..)

AST - AST or APBT lines bred away from performance/function and bred as a companion and show dog. Appearance, structure, etc is almost always held to that of registry standards be that AKC, UKC or ADBA..

Bulldog - This can be either used as a generalized term to refer to a scatter bred dog or an unproven APBT.. This isn't something to be held by negative light as Bulldogs make superb catch dogs and extremely versatile.. Keeping true to the APBT just unproven with respected ability surrounding pit dogs. Standards can go either way, some may conform some may not however typically, when i reference a hound as a Bulldog they still hold that function and ability.. Just not in that of APBT.

APBT - Tested and proven and bred from APBT lines.

Pit dog - Tested and proven with respected ability, doesn't have to be APBT. There are Mastiffs, Crosses, Mutts, APBTs, etc that all can be classified as such so long as they are proven to be..

But of course, there are people that disagree with this.. Its all in who you ask and what they believe, i believe in what has always been.


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## william williamson (Feb 26, 2006)

They were always called buwdawg or dawg.
Any other references were simple. Cur, game, dead game, dead, tested, sire, dam, [email protected], and full of pis and vinegar.


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## pitbullmamanatl (Jun 1, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> If we are to say the wins are legit and the wins are not that of show nature or anything other than the true defining work of the APBT, than yes that dog would be proven and the right to be called as such regardless of scatter bred.. Or at very least, just be called a pit dog as reference to what the hound has accomplished.. However, i have my doubts.. Theres MUCH to question just based on the ped and the dog alone.. If there was a recent game dog that could be said as a "blue dog" in color, this would be something special and in all sense of the word, rare. I won't say its fraud or not 100% as i don't know who the kennel or handlers are nor do i know the dog first hand, so it could theoretically be true but there is more evidence that points towards fraud than anything. I'm sure if one did some research on the dogs in the ped, the kennel, etc you would have your answer without a doubt.
> 
> I, personally don't think its worth my time so i will just leave it at that.. There are hundreds claiming to have this or that, its not worth it to me to go around and be a police for every single thing..
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost: Love how you did that and I agree with you 100%.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

And if I'm not mistaken watchdog was bred large for hog catching and is said to have some mastiff in it which would make it a bandog. I would not refer it to being an APBT maybe "pit dog" depending on its purpose as KM noted above. 

However in todays day I see many bully breeders using what is said to be "watchdog" in their peds...due to its "rare" blue color lol and larger build.

So...if it was suspect to call these dogs true APBT back in the day...imagine how far from it it is today.


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

dixieland said:


> I don't think I would go as far as to call tnt,turpins,falins,etc... game bred.I do believe that watchdog started that way but has since moved in a different direction.Someone please tell me if I'm wrong.
> 
> And angelbaby,I would still consider that dog an amstaff even if it does have box wins.The same would go for an ambully.Just because it wins in the box doesn't change what it is.I do totally get what you're saying though.Sometimes it seems kinda confusing with apbt's,amstaffs,[] wins,confo wins,what makes an apbt an apbt and not an amstaff........lol


Well, maybe I've been talking to the wrong people, lol. Oh, well. Guess I better start talking to new people, ha ha.



angelbaby said:


> Thank you all for the info , ya I thought if looking at blood that dog would be more am staff { although there are some names on that ped I dont know so figured Id ask}. Lady Pit I thought someone told me watchdog was more am staff but maybe they were wrong or maybe thats what the watchdog moved into later on ? I dont know lol, Im still learning this too and with APBT lines your probably way ahead of me lol. He was a pretty dog though .


 I've honestly not studied Watchdog itself all that much, but this is more of a reason for me to start now.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Watchdog can trace the foundation back to the likes of Carver and Patrick just to name a few.. Either game or AST lines, excellent hounds in the prime.. Butchered and ruined by Bully breeders, generally see watchdog heavily mixed with Gotti and RE.. Old TNT can be traced back to Watchdog..


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

KMdogs said:


> Watchdog can trace the foundation back to the likes of Carver and Patrick just to name a few.. Either game or AST lines, excellent hounds in the prime.. Butchered and ruined by Bully breeders, generally see watchdog heavily mixed with Gotti and RE.. Old TNT can be traced back to Watchdog..


Thank you very much for that clarification KM. It's much appreciated!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

the blue watchdogs I seen come out off the chaos of Illinois had some GREAT talent and they were great CATCH dogs and they were deadly to any dog that wasn't game. Seen many bad yard accidents even with some valuable game dogs that got broke by the 98lb Sky Blue sired menace. Every watchdog seems to have been influxed with Gotti, RE, or Whopper.. ... work is everything and CANNOT be faked. The proof is in the pudding and we see that with every strain bonafide or poser.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> the blue watchdogs I seen come out off the chaos of Illinois had some GREAT talent and they were great CATCH dogs and they were deadly to any dog that wasn't game. Seen many bad yard accidents even with some valuable game dogs that got broke by the 98lb Sky Blue sired menace. Every watchdog seems to have been influxed with Gotti, RE, or Whopper.. ... work is everything and CANNOT be faked. The proof is in the pudding and we see that with every strain bonafide or poser.


:goodpost:


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

thatruth832 said:


> I have had this discussion with friends of mine who "know everything there is to know about pits" and its rediculous.. From what I have read and looked up online they are the same dog jus different kennel club standards..


A dog from only game lines is not the same as a show dog. They heal quicker, are fearless from anything, are more human friendly and have the never quit attitude.

The UKC, for example created a list of rules to "pit" your dog, so it was fair. Then they went show and many "game" dogs went to the ADBA. It did not take long for many UKC dogs to not be as game after being bred for only show. That is just a dip into the huge and debatable history of the APBT.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

NorCalTim said:


> A dog from only game lines is not the same as a show dog. They heal quicker, are fearless from anything, are more human friendly and have the never quit attitude.
> 
> The UKC, for example created a list of rules to "pit" your dog, so it was fair. Then they went show and many "game" dogs went to the ADBA. It did not take long for many UKC dogs to not be as game after being bred for only show. That is just a dip into the huge and debatable history of the APBT.


What are you talking about? A hound down from game lines is just a game bred Bulldog until otherwise proven.. Has nothing to do with trainability and just because they are bred from proven stock, doesn't mean they won't be curs.. Game dogs can produce curs just as easy, if not arguably easier as it takes a great deal of work and effort to achieve game. Let alone keep it instilled.

Now curs are still highly functional and make some of the best catch dogs, great all arounders.. Really one of the only breeds out there that can be deemed as such.

The UKC is just ASTs regardless as they are mostly show bred show stock, same with the AKC.. Hell, many ADBA dogs are just ASTs to a different beat.. If we are talking about the golden standard of historic accuracy and not that of which the registry deems accurate. Just because you have APBT blood, breed it, follows suit to ADBA conformity doesn't make it an APBT.. Bulldog until otherwise proven..


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

KMdogs said:


> What are you talking about? A hound down from game lines is just a game bred Bulldog until otherwise proven.. Has nothing to do with trainability and just because they are bred from proven stock, doesn't mean they won't be curs.. Game dogs can produce curs just as easy, if not arguably easier as it takes a great deal of work and effort to achieve game. Let alone keep it instilled.
> 
> Now curs are still highly functional and make some of the best catch dogs, great all arounders.. Really one of the only breeds out there that can be deemed as such.
> 
> The UKC is just ASTs regardless as they are mostly show bred show stock, same with the AKC.. Hell, many ADBA dogs are just ASTs to a different beat.. If we are talking about the golden standard of historic accuracy and not that of which the registry deems accurate. Just because you have APBT blood, breed it, follows suit to ADBA conformity doesn't make it an APBT.. Bulldog until otherwise proven..


What am I talking about?
Do a search on Pit Bulls for sale.

Catch dog?
Family dog.
Sure the APBT are good at all kinds of things.

Nothing to do with how trainable he is? Only the most intelligent dogs won. Therefore, are more trainable. Come on, a game bred dog HAS to be smart. If all the dogs in your pedigree were pretty puffy muscled dogs who were bred only for looks, ......

A dog from game bred stock has a much higher chance of having the hidden trait of gameness (with out fighting the thing) than a dog who was fondled during his dog shows when earning a CH title. "Testing" was the final step in our breed. I have not seen a dog fight, or want to see one. Is a dog line bred for show from the 40s to 1976 an APBT? I think not (there was another ring for them).


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

haha i get what your trying to say now.. Thanks for clarifying.


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## wncpulldawgs (Feb 9, 2012)

without the game bred dogs you wouldn't have the blue dogs you have 2 day


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## NorCalTim (Mar 26, 2007)

Right on.
I like all Bull Dogs, I am just particular to a certain type. When I was a kid, most of my dogs were mutts. I would have been missing out if I was not to have even one of them growing up.


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