# Lets talk Razors edge and Gotti.....



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Does everyone agree these lines are NOT mixed with another breed (ie. corso, mastiff, dogue etc.) but do consist of Amstaff breedings? 

I don't mind Amstaff lines as I consider them an APBT.....simply a different type (show type).


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

subjsct has already been touched a million times, but once again my opinion is yes they have been mixed its painfully obvious


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## TheBullBeastLover (Jul 18, 2007)

umm like wheezie said no offence but ive been on 2 days and im already sick of this topic sorry very nice puppy though


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> Does everyone agree these lines are NOT mixed with another breed (ie. corso, mastiff, dogue etc.) but do consist of Amstaff breedings?
> .


im not sure anyone belives that,not even the founder of the line...


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

keith i am really debating about getting a bully more than likeley greyline blood and actually putting it to work , ill probably never do it cause i dont wana spen 2 grand lol but i would really like to see what i could get out of the dog


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

with proper selection anything can happen,what kennel do you like?,wasnt juan gotti a grey line dog?


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

yeah i think he founded the line or some crap like that, ill have to go looking at a couple of bully kennnels again (i never bookmark them) i just think it would be cool to actually do something witht hem i havent seen almost any get worked


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## FOSTER (Nov 14, 2006)

Ive heard alot about jaun gotti. but what about his litter mates? anybody got any pics or know what happened to them. jg seems to be in alot of the big time bully dogs, and one would think his litter mates would have made a dent too.


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## drsven (Mar 21, 2007)

Not every RE dog is mixed, some early breedings are AKC Amstaff's and some dogs are UKC/ADBA Amstaff mixed with game lines. I think most of us can tell which dogs are mixed and which aren't. The UKC has stated that not all RE breedings were being investigated. Most of the RE dogs you'll encounter today are mixed. But as you can see in the pedigree I've posted for Gaff's Pumpkin some RE dogs were AKC champions.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

the bottom half of the pedigree is very similar to the top half of Neelas. Neela has 3 or 4 registered amstaffs in her 7 generation ped. but by now they have been all bred out and I believe she is a fine example of a true blue pitty... I'm sure some people on here will disagree... I do know she has some faults, but her over all apperance to me is definately APBT


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

she looks good regardless.curious,how was the amstaff bred out?


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## drsven (Mar 21, 2007)

*RE bottom line IMO*

Good RE early breedings consist of:

1. AKC-Pure AMSTAFF stock
2. ADBA/UKC-AMSTAFF bred with APBT (still good in my opinion).

Bad:

New RE "bully" breed falsely registered with the UKC and ADBA-Amstaff and APBT as the primary breed mixed with other types of bulldogs or mastiffs (these are the dogs that should be revoked).


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

That's the answer I was looking for drsven. The thing I worry about is being able to root out the ones that are mixed with bulldogs or mastiffs. I plan on breeding her in the future and wanted to possibly use a UKC dog. Just to be on the safe side I'll probably stay away from both those lines. I'm in the process of showing her in ADBA right now but weight pull has always intrigued me. When she turns a year next month I'll also register her with UKC. 

She's game on top and bottom and I was thinking of breeding away from that a little. Because of her breeding anything outside of game lines would be considered an outcross. Just throwing ideas around.

Thanks for the replies!


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

NEELA looks very Amstaff to me. Remember Amstaff is an APBT, just a different type (show vs. game). Most of the time the two vary slightly in appearance as most "working" vs. "show" breeds do. Take a look at an AKC show champion lab and a field trial champion lab, you'll see what I mean. Both labs, just a different type. Also remember the AKC is the only registry that has a different name for our breed (that should tell you something about the AKC!). 

She's a good looking bitch! Do you have anymore pics of her??


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## drsven (Mar 21, 2007)

gamecock10 said:


> That's the answer I was looking for drsven. The thing I worry about is being able to root out the ones that are mixed with bulldogs or mastiffs. I plan on breeding her in the future and wanted to possibly use a UKC dog. Just to be on the safe side I'll probably stay away from both those lines. I'm in the process of showing her in ADBA right now but weight pull has always intrigued me. When she turns a year next month I'll also register her with UKC.
> 
> She's game on top and bottom and I was thinking of breeding away from that a little. Because of her breeding anything outside of game lines would be considered an outcross. Just throwing ideas around.
> 
> Thanks for the replies!


If you really have your mind set on a RE then talk to Pam at Gaff, she has the real deal. You'll probably have to wait a while for an upcoming breeding and her dogs aren't cheap, but at least your getting champion lines & already dual registered with the AKC and UKC. Registering one of her dogs with the ADBA would be no problem.


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Thanks for the suggestion! :clap:


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

because the RE is alittle further back... Her momma has alot of " gamey" kinda dogs so her breeder says. When she is in shape lol I think she looks more one her mommas side then her dad.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

am i wrong? One day I'll bust out the Ped and put it on here for ya'll to look at... I might be retarded lol!:stick:


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

this is the newest one of her in the car... maybe last month...










right as the benadryll and prednisone kicks in










this one is alittle older... i think I took it back in jan or something










this was taken the same day... these also were taken when the picture in my avatar was. I need to get more pictures of her. she's been having a rough time with allergies this spring so i haven't been doing the pictures so much cuz it makes her look bad.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> NEELA looks very Amstaff to me. Remember Amstaff is an APBT, just a different type (show vs. game). Most of the time the two vary slightly in appearance as most "working" vs. "show" breeds do. Take a look at an AKC show champion lab and a field trial champion lab, you'll see what I mean. Both labs, just a different type. Also remember the AKC is the only registry that has a different name for our breed (that should tell you something about the AKC!).
> 
> She's a good looking bitch! Do you have anymore pics of her??


lol last time until someone else talks... yes I do know amstaff and apbt are eccentially the same... her dad was still a bit over done (the RE back in his ped) but momma was small and gamey... i guess i just look at her and see momma cuz she doesn't have the huge head and wide chest... she is well porportioned(sp?) i think


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

she is well proportioned,i dont know about gamey but she is definetly leggy,looks like a runner.Just for everyones info the akc claims the dogs breeds amstaff and apbt to be seperate breeds,the american bullie was created from ukc and akc registered staff/pits with or with out outside blood added and gameline dogs are pure bred apbt....there surly must be a middle ground were they are esentaly the same and that should be based on confrimation and working type,a akc show bred amstaff is no apbt....


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

cane76 said:


> she is well proportioned,i dont know about gamey but she is definetly leggy,looks like a runner.Just for everyones info the akc claims the dogs breeds amstaff and apbt to be seperate breeds,the american bullie was created from ukc and akc registered staff/pits with or with out outside blood added and gameline dogs are pure bred apbt....there surly must be a middle ground were they are esentaly the same and that should be based on confrimation and working type,a akc show bred amstaff is no apbt....


 You're right the woman does have some legs on her! lol I'm just talking about over all build... she definately is tall for what she is (probably from her daddy) but everything else ei: head shape, her gait, and the rest of her build is her momma


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

The same AKC Amstaff is recognized by the UKC as an APBT. AKC is the only one that has a problem calling the breed by it's proper name. When the AKC chose to accept the breed they simply changed the name for registration purposes (they didn't want the stigma). As early as the 60's they were still allowing UKC APBT's into their stud books. 

Over time selctive breeding has produced two different types of the same breed. Amstaffs tend to be shorter and stockier with less of a game temperament. Still, for the dog to be anything other than APBT there would have to be outside blood brought in from another breed. The "blood" is the same, with different traits being highlighted through selective breeding. Just like a working GSD vs. an AKC show GSD. Or a field trial Golden vs. an AKC show Golden. 

I don't care what breed people are talking about, show people and working people always have issues with each other. The reality is the Amstaff is an APBT as recognized by two of the three registries. By it's own admission the only reason it's not called APBT by the AKC is for image concerns. :roll:


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

agreed... i can't argue one bit


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> The same AKC Amstaff is recognized by the UKC as an APBT. AKC is the only one that has a problem calling the breed by it's proper name. When the AKC chose to accept the breed they simply changed the name for registration purposes (they didn't want the stigma). As early as the 60's they were still allowing UKC APBT's into their stud books.
> 
> Over time selctive breeding has produced two different types of the same breed. Amstaffs tend to be shorter and stockier with less of a game temperament. Still, for the dog to be anything other than APBT there would have to be outside blood brought in from another breed. The "blood" is the same, with different traits being highlighted through selective breeding. Just like a working GSD vs. an AKC show GSD. Or a field trial Golden vs. an AKC show Golden.
> 
> I don't care what breed people are talking about, show people and working people always have issues with each other. The reality is the Amstaff is an APBT as recognized by two of the three registries. By it's own admission the only reason it's not called APBT by the AKC is for image concerns. :roll:


All dog breeds come from the wolf and are just modifications of the same animal so does that mean all dogs are wolfs?Amstaff has been altered and reshaped,it looks nothing like a apbt,it acts nothing like one and isnt one,although they are clearly closely related.You cant make the comparison between a working gsd and a show gsd because they are actually registered as the same breed,a better comparison would be between a malinoi and a gsd,although they may look similar and be related they are clearly diffrent breeds and registered as such....


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

The Amstaff is registered with the ADBA and UKC as an APBT. The AKC didn't change the name because it was a different breed, they did so because of image. The original dogs accepted by AKC under the Amstaff name were registered APBT's. No other blood since has been introduced to create a seperate breed. Selective breeding for certain desired traits does not constitute the creation of a new breed. What it does is create a different type. There are many types within a breed of dog (any breed of dog). 

I used to work in Schutzhund with working German Shepherd Dogs. I can assure you as the day is long that a working GSD is a much different TYPE of dog than an AKC show German Shepherd (in looks and attitude). Still, both are AKC registered and considered the same breed. 

Are you saying all UKC registered APBT's are not APBT's because one registry doesn't recognize the name? I think there would be quite a few people that would take exception to that.

I think we all agree there are game bred APBT's and show bred APBT's. That's what all this comes down to.....two different types. Same as in almost every breed.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> Selective breeding for certain desired traits does not constitute the creation of a new breed. What it does is create a different type..


Yes it does,thats the only way breeds have been created..


gamecock10 said:


> There are many types within a breed of dog (any breed of dog). ..


true there are a few diffrent types in most breeds,but the apbt breed is just becoming a joke,name one breed of dog with so many"TYPES"within it.....


gamecock10 said:


> I used to work in Schutzhund with working German Shepherd Dogs. I can assure you as the day is long that a working GSD is a much different TYPE of dog than an AKC show German Shepherd (in looks and attitude). Still, both are AKC registered and considered the same breed. ..


true,but both have very similar features,ok,the show dogs algulation in its back is pitifull,its larger with a less sharp tempermemt,but how is the comparison correct,one isnt registered as a alsation with one org and bred to a diffrent standard, and if they were then theyd be a seperate breed....



gamecock10 said:


> Are you saying all UKC registered APBT's are not APBT's because one registry doesn't recognize the name? I think there would be quite a few people that would take exception to that...


 huh?i dont care that the akc dosent register the apbt,
the akc destroys breeds,i mean look at the amstaff,that "USED' to be a apbt......



gamecock10 said:


> I think we all agree there are game bred APBT's and show bred APBT's. That's what all this comes down to.....two different types. Same as in almost every breed..


thats true,and theres also pure bred amstaffs with no apbt in there pedigree,and they are diffrent breed....


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

"thats true,and theres also pure bred amstaffs with no apbt in there pedigree,and they are diffrent breed...."

This is of course impossible since ALL AKC Amstaffs are from 3 registered APBT's. Of course you will only have "registered" AKC Amstaffs over time in an AKC pedigree since the AKC is the only registry calling them this. That same AKC Champion Amstaff can also be a UKC registered APBT Champion.....not to mention ADBA registered. Just because an APBT is not game bred doesn't mean it isn't an APBT. A purple ribbon UKC Champion APBT can also go out and gain it's AKC Amstaff championship....and vise versa. 

I'm curoius to know what you think the AKC Amstaffs were bred with that makes them a completely seperate breed??


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> "thats true,and theres also pure bred amstaffs with no apbt in there pedigree,and they are diffrent breed...."
> 
> This is of course impossible since ALL AKC Amstaffs are from 3 registered APBT's. Of course you will only have "registered" AKC Amstaffs over time in an AKC pedigree since the AKC is the only registry calling them this. That same AKC Champion Amstaff can also be a UKC registered APBT Champion.....not to mention ADBA registered. Just because an APBT is not game bred doesn't mean it isn't an APBT. A purple ribbon UKC Champion APBT can also go out and gain it's AKC Amstaff championship....and vise versa.
> 
> I'm curoius to know what you think the AKC Amstaffs were bred with that makes them a completely seperate breed??


ugh!!
your very hard headed,


gamecock10 said:


> I'm curoius to know what you think the AKC Amstaffs were bred with that makes them a completely seperate breed??


i know the story of the amstaff,just because it was selected from purebred apbt dosent make it so 71" years later,you think im the only one who thinks this.....


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

LOL....not hard headed I just like facts. Your not the only one who thinks they are a totally seperate breed. There are plenty of AKC breeders who want nothing to do with the fact their dog has anything to do with an APBT. Then there are breeders that show in both AKC and UKC and accept the truth. 

"just because it was selected from purebred apbt dosent make it so 71" years later" I'm not sure how this statement even makes sense. If it was selected from pure stock and no other blood has been introduced then how can they be anything other than an APBT? Again, the UKC recognizes the Amstaff as a purebred APBT because that's what it is. UKC and AKC breeders breed for a different standard than the ADBA. That doesn't mean the dogs from both of those registries are any less APBT. They're just a different "type" than you see in the more game ADBA.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :stick:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> LOL....not hard headed I just like facts. Your not the only one who thinks they are a totally seperate breed. There are plenty of AKC breeders who want nothing to do with the fact their dog has anything to do with an APBT. Then there are breeders that show in both AKC and UKC and accept the truth.


_so if you believe the amstaff is actually a apbt,then you must also belive the staffordshire bull terrier is a apbt also,as well as a bull terrier since both are from the same back ground and have nothing else mixed into there lines correct?_



gamecock10 said:


> I'm not sure how this statement even makes sense. If it was selected from pure stock and no other blood has been introduced then how can they be anything other than an APBT?.


again you must believe that the staffy bull is a apbt....


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Time for a breed lesson:

MODERN BULL TERRIER= Old Bull Terrier x Manchester Terrier x White English Terrier. "Which other breeds were further crossed along the generations to obtain the modern Bull Terrier with the unique egg-shaped head is still a matter of conjecture. Most sources agree that Dalmatian blood was infused to confer the breed a more elegant look and gait and longer legs. Some authorities believe the Spanish Pointer, Greyhound, Foxhound and/or Whippet were crossed along the lines. Borzoi and Collie may also have been crossed into the gene pool to elongate the head even more and to arrive at a type of dog with a stop ever less marked. 

STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER= The SBT was developed in Europe and wasn't even registered in the U.S. unitl 1975. "Terriers thought to have been used in the cross are the Manchester Terrier and the now-extinct English White Terrier. In addition, crosses with various of the old working terriers were made. The first Staffordshire Bull Terriers brought to the United States lived their lives out simply as companions; it was not until 1975 that the American Kennel Club recognized the Staffordshire Bull Terrier as a registerable breed. "The first SBT to be registered in the American Kennel Club Stud Book was the dog, an English Import, Champion Tinkinswood Imperial". 

Each bull and terrier breed was created from different mixtures af Old Bull Dogs and various Terriers. No one knows 100% the mixture of each....but they are all different. 

The Amstaff was registered from purebred and registered APBT's. In fact the original AKC standard for the Amstaff was from a Colby American Pit Bull Terrier. There go those pesky facts getting in the way again!


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> Time for a breed lesson:
> 
> MODERN BULL TERRIER= Old Bull Terrier x Manchester Terrier x White English Terrier. "Which other breeds were further crossed along the generations to obtain the modern Bull Terrier with the unique egg-shaped head is still a matter of conjecture. Most sources agree that Dalmatian blood was infused to confer the breed a more elegant look and gait and longer legs. Some authorities believe the Spanish Pointer, Greyhound, Foxhound and/or Whippet were crossed along the lines. Borzoi and Collie may also have been crossed into the gene pool to elongate the head even more and to arrive at a type of dog with a stop ever less marked. !


exactly,you base your argument on speculation,the freakish apperance of the modern bull terrier was just as easily achieved through line breeding then through cross breeding and its really all speculation.no one can say for sure....



gamecock10 said:


> STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER= The SBT was developed in Europe and wasn't even registered in the U.S. unitl 1975. "Terriers thought to have been used in the cross are the Manchester Terrier and the now-extinct English White Terrier. In addition, crosses with various of the old working terriers were made. The first Staffordshire Bull Terriers brought to the United States lived their lives out simply as companions; it was not until 1975 that the American Kennel Club recognized the Staffordshire Bull Terrier as a registerable breed. "The first SBT to be registered in the American Kennel Club Stud Book was the dog, an English Import, Champion Tinkinswood Imperial". !


pure bred apbt is nothing more than the old original staffy from england,no cross breeding,nothing....
so is the breed also a apbt?
explain how this makes sence? a amstaff is actually a apbt but a staffy is not?niether were cross bred,,so much for your history leason......


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

I gave you examples of how the SBT and BT are different breeds than the APBT. How EACH was created from crossing bull and terrier dogs. The exact combination that created each is the only thing that is murky. You keep throwing "linebreeding" out there. From the way you use the term I'm not sure you know what it means. You might want to google that one!

"The AKC decided to register PIT BULLS but under a different name - the Staffordshire Terrier, which was later changed to the American Staffordshire Terrier in 1972, or AST. Up until 1936, Pit Bulls and AST’s were physically identical. After 1936, AST’s were bred solely for conformation and their breed requirements became much more stringent. APBT’s were being bred for both performance (fighting) as well as conformation shows and the breed’s standard became much more lenient. The AST’s, phenotypically, became “flashier” with blockier heads, larger chests and a thicker jaw while the APBT’s varied phenotypically from lanky to stocky. Although the phenotypic expression varied in the APBT, relative weight, size and proportion remained constant and dogs over 60lbs were rarely seen. Both AST’s and APBT’s were bred to be exceptionally sturdy and extremely human friendly, not to mention athletic, courageous, and tenacious."

This is as far as I can dumb it down for you....if you still don't get it then fine, we just won't see eye to eye. And if you don't know what phenotype is please look it up....it tends to matter in dog breeding :hammer:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> I gave you examples of how the SBT and BT are different breeds than the APBT. How EACH was created from crossing bull and terrier dogs. The exact combination that created each is the only thing that is murky. You keep throwing "linebreeding" out there. From the way you use the term I'm not sure you know what it means. You might want to google that one!
> 
> "The AKC decided to register PIT BULLS but under a different name - the Staffordshire Terrier, which was later changed to the American Staffordshire Terrier in 1972, or AST. Up until 1936, Pit Bulls and AST's were physically identical. After 1936, AST's were bred solely for conformation and their breed requirements became much more stringent. APBT's were being bred for both performance (fighting) as well as conformation shows and the breed's standard became much more lenient. The AST's, phenotypically, became "flashier" with blockier heads, larger chests and a thicker jaw while the APBT's varied phenotypically from lanky to stocky. Although the phenotypic expression varied in the APBT, relative weight, size and proportion remained constant and dogs over 60lbs were rarely seen. Both AST's and APBT's were bred to be exceptionally sturdy and extremely human friendly, not to mention athletic, courageous, and tenacious."
> 
> This is as far as I can dumb it down for you....if you still don't get it then fine, we just won't see eye to eye. And if you don't know what phenotype is please look it up....it tends to matter in dog breeding :hammer:


gamecock,your post's should be accompanyed by there own theme song the michale mcdonald tune"what a fool believes".....
You post up info that says that the saffy is created from the exact same dogs the modern day apbt is.Both the apbt,amstaff and sbt are the exact same in genotype,while all three are diffrent in phenotype and none of the three in there purest form have been crossed,yet all three are diffrent breeds,you claim the amstaff is nothing less than a apbt so why is this not true for the staffy,all three are of the same genotype!
answer this question and have it make sence!!!_you claim the amstaff is nothing less than a apbt so why is this not true for the staffy_
I guess your original post says it all,you want to convince folks that the gotti and re dogs were created through line breeding so you can buy a blue mutt and keep calling it a apbt based on you aquired mis/information then breed it into a game dog and peddle some pups......bravo!!!!!!


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

"you want to convince folks that the gotti and re dogs were created through line breeding so you can buy a blue mutt and keep calling it a apbt"

Why would I want to convince anyone anything about the RE and Gotti dogs? I asked for opinions about the lines due to people hanging papers in the UKC and ADBA. The rest is just you telling yourself what you want to hear! 

If you have something that says the APBT and SBT are the same in genotype I would like to see it. I'm saying they have always been a seperate breed and gave you examples below. Different bull and terrier dogs made up each. 

No other dog breed went into the creation of the Amstaff! To create a seperate breed you must introduce a different breed than the one you started with! No matter how much you try and twist it that's a fact. Knowing the difference between GENOTYPE and PHENOTYPE should help you fill in the blanks!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Dang now Im going to have to go back and read this thread from the begining. Ive been avoiding it.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> "you want to convince folks that the gotti and re dogs were created through line breeding so you can buy a blue mutt and keep calling it a apbt"
> 
> Why would I want to convince anyone anything about the RE and Gotti dogs? I asked for opinions about the lines due to people hanging papers in the UKC and ADBA. The rest is just you telling yourself what you want to hear!
> 
> ...


*Early Bull and Terriers were not bred for the handsome visual specimen of today, rather they were bred for the characteristic known as gameness. The pitting of dogs against bear or bull tested the gameness, strength and skill of the dog. These early "proto-staffords" provided the ancestral foundation stock for the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier.
*
thats from staffy bull history site.....
http://www.pitbullsoforegon.com/breed_history.html
although just to be honest most the info ive found when searching varies greatly,some sites saying that the apbt is a cross from bulldog,english white and manchester terrier,others say its not a cross but the original bulldog.
so nothing ive found in writing is proof of anything..to much varying info and speculation.
im done with this conversation,its giving me a headache and wasting my time.....


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Ok Im working my way through it. By the way, would you mind posting a ped of your dog. Id like to see it.

First and Im not trying to step on toes or take sides, just clear things up



> She's game on top and bottom and I was thinking of breeding away from that a little. Because of her breeding anything outside of game lines would be considered an outcross.


Not exactly true. OUTCROSSING is breeding outside of family lines. If your dog is scatterbred (not saying yours is) its hard to actually outcross. The only way to OUTCROSS is to have a linebred/inbred dog and totally deviate from that blood in the next breeding.

Outbreeding - Outcross; open pedigree; crossbred; when two dogs are bred together with no dogs in common in their pedigree. Not controlling desired characteristics or obtaining new characteristics

Inbreeding - The mating of closely related animals

As in Brother to sister/ Father to daughter/ Mother to Son/ some consider half brother to half sister, some say this is linebreeding.
example http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=257344

Line Breeding - The mating of related animals less closely related than inbreeding
Linebreeding is breeding dogs that are related to one particular ancestor top and bottom and no other dog.

Genotype - An individuals hereditary makeup as distinguished from the actualization of the genes

Phenotype - The individuals appearance or performance and the observable outcome of interaction between the environment and its genotype

http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BIO48/5.Geno.Pheno.HTML

In other words you can still breed a "Game line" to your current dog and it still be an outcross.


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## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

Andy, that is awesome!


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Actually it is "outcross"....."Outcross breeding is when you take a male and female dog of the same breed but have no relatives that are the same."

Anything away from game lines would be an outcross due to the lack of similar relatives in the pedigree (I use this as an example because it's what I'm thinking of doing).

I'll try to get her Ped posted soon....I have to shrink it to make it fit.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

NO
Outbreeding - Outcross; open pedigree; crossbred; when two dogs are bred together with no dogs in common in their pedigree.

You can do this and stay in the realm of gameblood. It happens all the time.

If you took a line bred Boudreaux dog and took it to a Lightner dog, that is an outcross within game lines!

Although if you do have a game bred dog and breed it outside of game lines it would deff be an outcross. It could end up scatterbred.


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

I think we're talking about the same thing LOL. I realize that would be an outcross within game lines. All I was saying is if I took my bitch to a UKC show line dog it would be an outcross as well.  (Again it depends on the PED but it's what I would be looking for possibly).

Seems like we took the long way around that corner!


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## TheBullBeastLover (Jul 18, 2007)

This is funny :roll: seeing how cane and gamecock diss each other back and forth and then finally fort steps it lol


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> Originally Posted by gamecock10
> Selective breeding for certain desired traits does not constitute the creation of a new breed. What it does is create a different type..
> 
> Yes it does,thats the only way breeds have been created..


This is how breeds come about. Just look at the Labradoodle. What happens is you start with a basic genetic makeup, the Genotype. Through selective breeding of PHENOTYPE eventually you alter the GENOTYPE. When you breed for charactersitics,(pheno) what you are breeding are mutated genes and end up with an altered GENOTYPE. However for it be a breed it has to be done CONSITENTLY and closely monitored.

The Staffordshire and the APBT are not the same in one. They are two seperate breeds that have been crossed alot through out the years but there are distinct and pure dogs on both sides.

However there are also dogs registered both as Staffy and APBT due to the associations labeling. However both breeds are different while close. They both can trace their respective origins back to pre 1800's.

We know that the APBT came from basically 3 different strains of dogs, The Irish Dogs, the English dogs, and to some extent the Scottish dogs.
In Ireland prior to the 1800s the Irish were breeding Pitt Bulldogs. The farmers needed dogs to keep out rats and other wild animals. Also at this time the Garrisons introduced the bulldogover the countryside and this eventually was crossed to the terrier. The terriers had been small as to go underground after game so the cross produced dogs in the 30-40lb range. These dogs were known at the time as bull and terrier dogs. They were well known in certain areas of Irealnd for hunting and fighting. So in the 1800's there were Pit Bull Terriers being bred and fought in Ireland. there was a line of dogs fought primarily in Cork and Derry called the OLD FAMILY by those in Ireland. These dogs were not to be confused with the American version of Old Family dogs because(american version) they were not pure and had been bred with dogs from England.

In England the Pit bull terrier were being bred and fought also prior to the 1800's. It was a cross of their bulldog, weighing about 60lbs to their terriers weighing about 15-20lbs. What resulted was a dog varrying in size from 30-40lbs. These dogs came in varying colors such as brindle, reds and even some blues. There was also another strain being bred in the BLACK COUNTRY by the chainmakers of CRADLEY HEATH. These dogs often weighed under 30lbs. The Pitt Bull Terrier was developed in England along very disticntive lines. They were registered as Staffordshire Bull Terriers in 1935. However up until the late 1800's to early 1900's many of these dogs were brought to the US. Once in the US the English version was developed differently, merging the the Irish and Scottish dog in. Therefore, since the early 1900's, with rare exceptions, no Staffordshire bull Terriers were bred into the bloodlines of the Pit Bull Terriers in the US.


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I think they were both right.


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## drsven (Mar 21, 2007)

OldFortKennels said:


> This is how breeds come about. Just look at the Labradoodle. What happens is you start with a basic genetic makeup, the Genotype. Through selective breeding of PHENOTYPE eventually you alter the GENOTYPE. When you breed for charactersitics,(pheno) what you are breeding are mutated genes and end up with an altered GENOTYPE. However for it be a breed it has to be done CONSITENTLY and closely monitored.
> 
> The Staffordshire and the APBT are not the same in one. They are two seperate breeds that have been crossed alot through out the years but there are distinct and pure dogs on both sides.
> 
> ...


Okay, so with this said I have a question & please be nice; I just want an opinion. For this example let's leave the "bully" style dogs out and I won't mention a perticular bloodline. After years of selective breeding without introducing an outside breed, a kennel is able to produce a consistant looking and functioning APBT creating it's own bloodline.

Here are the three examples of ADBA registered APBT's:

1. 50-60 LB Blue pulling dogs with a grey nose
2. 30-40 LB Red game dogs with a red nose
3. 60-70 LB Fawn hunting dogs with a black nose

These dogs ancestors originally carried the same genotype. Phenotypes with sought after charastics in the breeders eyes were bred together eventually altering the genotype. Now we have three types of dogs all in the same registry, all with the same title and they all look quite different. Do you consider them to be the same breed?


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## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Ok...here it is. After carefully reading the first part of Forts post I started doing some research. I came across an article that has my head spinning. It has changed my view on not only the Amstaff/APBT debate but about dog breeding in general. It has me perplexed about the UKC and ADBA now also. PLEASE read this article....it is an eye opener and may raise many questions within yourself. Definitely read the last part about BREED STANDARDS. If you care about the breed you need to read this! Without your post I may have never come across this article so thanks Fort!


Dog Breeding And Genetics

"Since breeders are always looking to breed true, he /she must always understand the mechanics of breeding and its very basis--genetics. 

Where dogs are concerned, an animal is termed to be “pure bred” or a pure breed if it belongs to a recognized/established breed type and/or has five or more generations of like-to-like breeding behind it. The dog will conform to all /many aspects of its breed standard ---size, weight, dimensions, type of coat, color, conformation, and more. 

Today, breeding has become a genetic adventure --- a good understanding of traits and gene pools are used to produce pre-determined and desirable results. 

Every animal has two aspects--- a phenotype or outward appearance and, a genotype or genetic make-up. Part of the genotype is visible (such as coat type or strong ears) while a part is hidden. 

A given dog may carry genes for both smooth as well as rough coat but in totality one will be recessive while the other will be dominant—what characteristics we see is the result of dominant genes. 

What is a recessive trait in one animal can surface as a dominant trait in its offspring under certain conditions. 

So, breeders endeavor to fix certain characters in their dogs by using their knowledge of genetics. The continual breeding of inter-related animals results in desirable characters being fixed ---this is done by raising the homozygosity of the breed population. 

A dog that is homozygous for a large number of genes is known to be pre-potent as the genes are most likely to be passed without significant variations to the next generation. 

Every breeder must: 

· Know clearly the “prepotency” of the breeding animals—this is done through sustained litter evaluations. 

· Study in depth, the breed strains and different genetic concerns of the breed as well as which lines are know to carry which genetic characters. 

Most established breeds have a small number of animals that are known “prepotents” for good/desirable traits. These animals are invaluable to any breeding program as they are most likely to pass on their “gene pool” to succeeding generations--- produce litters that meet the breed standards and have little or no faults --- champion material. 

The “key” is to understand the genetic map of the breed your dog belongs to. 

· Evaluate your dog carefully.

· Find out if the dog has been inbred or out-crossed. 

· Write down a five-generation pedigree.

· Find out how many common ancestors your dog has on the dam’s side as well as the sires. If an ancestor’s name comes up thrice in five generations it is considered to be okay. However, if an ancestor appears 4-5 times then it is not a desirable thing—you need to find a mate that does not have any link to this frequent ancestor.

· Using “common ancestors” as a “tab” you must determine your animal’s strengths as well as weaknesses. 

· While breeding you must take care not to double faults. 

Breed Standards 

An important and undeniable fact is that dog breeding reduces greatly genetic diversity of dogs. By selective breeding, human beings strive to produce dogs that time and again that fit certain “human criteria” --- fit breed standards. 

When one looks at this scientifically and considering nature and environmental aspects, we will realize that breeding to a standard suits human goals and increases predictability but on the other hand it reduces genetic diversity. By creating a “standard” dog aficionados have created a very narrow range of variation and genetic diversity throughout the different breeds. It is impossible to achieve a balance between uniformity of type and genetic conservation. The gene pool becomes so selective and narrow, that “genetic diversity” is lost for eternity. And once certain traits/genes are weeded out they can never be re-introduced with ease--- one would need to re-introduce them from other sources."


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> These dogs ancestors originally carried the same genotype. Phenotypes with sought after charastics in the breeders eyes were bred together eventually altering the genotype. Now we have three types of dogs all in the same registry, all with the same title and they all look quite different. Do you consider them to be the same breed?


One would have to see the dogs to say, but IMO it is very possible for these dogs to be of the same genotype, just different phenotype.



> So, breeders endeavor to fix certain characters in their dogs by using their knowledge of genetics. The continual breeding of inter-related animals results in desirable characters being fixed ---this is done by raising the homozygosity of the breed population.





> By selective breeding, human beings strive to produce dogs that time and again that fit certain "human criteria" --- fit breed standards.


Definition of selctive breeding, best to best to achieve better.

Inbreeding greatly hightens traits and aspect of the ancestors. You have to cull hard because it also hightens the negative traits too. Once homozygosity is achieved then a line is established. Once you can continue to reproduce with the same genetic results you are established.

This is also very common in the horse world. You can find stud horses that are guaranteed homozygous producers meaning that when "A" is bred with "B" you always get "AB" not "C" and you know ahead of time what AB is and will look like. The same applies in todays dog world. If you want to see breeding at its best, research the COLBY line. Only one outcross was ever made by John P. Colby in his lifetime and that was to Galtie.


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## ashbash91 (Aug 22, 2007)

my dogs are not mixed they are dela cruz, gotti, certified, and gaff bloodlines mostly.....with American Bullies the breeders they just i wouldn't say improved the breed but they made them a more of the ideal family companion just big impressive pits....no offense to any1 saying the american bully is better than the gamebred pits but every1 has their own opinion.... 



But i would never get a razor's edge dog because the creator of Razor's Edge Bloodline admitted he as mixed the dogs with bigger dogs like the corsos and larger bully type breeds like that.....


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

if goti, cruz greyline, butthead, whoper etc are not mixed... lol..... then they are a poor represntation of the breed


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## ashbash91 (Aug 22, 2007)

see man... here we go again..... every time you get on a forum everyone wants to talk sh*t about the american bully...... how are they a bad representation for the breed? Like I said every1 has there own opinions about things but don't talk down on something....have you ever saw an american bully in person?


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

ashbash91 said:


> see man... here we go again..... every time you get on a forum everyone wants to talk sh*t about the american bully...... how are they a bad representation for the breed? Like I said every1 has there own opinions about things but don't talk down on something....*have you ever saw an american bully in person?*


I wake up with one every morning!


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## ashbash91 (Aug 22, 2007)

I really don't like it when people talk down about the american bully I own both kinds of the pitbulls all are reg. and I love them all! But a lot of people talk crap about them when they have never saw one in person.... and when they see them in person they fall in love w/ them half the time..... Every1 thinks they are fat and over weight and unhealthy but i don't agree! All mine keep up with my game bred pits and they never get out of breath and want to pass out! all my dogs are solid muscle.... and muscle weighs more then fat!


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i dont have a problem with american bullies, i like dogs... and i mean all dogs, i have a problem with a lot of the breeders and owners of american bullies, the ones that try to pass off a 85 lb plus dog as an APBT, ir a dog that is 14 inches at the withers and and 70 lbs its just rediculus, they are a whole nother breed.


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## ashbash91 (Aug 22, 2007)

o0o! LOL! one of my boys are tall he is 21" ...... but the shortest dog i own is short shaq he is 17"..... I don't like the dogs your talking about though.... i do agree with you..... I do like those pocet pits though you know the ones that are super short but are only like 30lbs.... I LIKE THEM! THEY ARE CUTE!


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## GSDBulldog (Dec 22, 2006)

I really don't have a problem with the bully-dogs, but I do consider them vastly different from the American pit bull terrier. My "issues", however, lie with the breeders who choose to produce them with no regards towards health (I've not yet found one breeder who tests hips, elbows, cardiac, and thyroid) or with no concerns towards breeding ethics (There are dogs being bred between 7 months and 1 years. Those are still pups!)

The American Bully is really a "novice" breed, and unfortunately the novices represent the majority of it's fanciers. The breed is based on what could be called a pyramid scheme, and I find that unfortunate; because the American bully IS a good family dog. Granted, they won't excel in the sporting world, but they are of sound temperament (When bred "right") and are much easier for the average family to handle.


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## Patch O' Pits (Aug 3, 2007)

> Every1 thinks they are fat and over weight and unhealthy but i don't agree!


 I think it is great if yours are in shape and healthy but 
unfortunately many are not kept that way.

I just don't like seeing any dog that is just plain old fat no matter what the breed.


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## ashbash91 (Aug 22, 2007)

yea i cant saw that for some ppl..... because i have seen dogs that people just power feed so they are all big and bulky but they dont work them them out... so then they are over weight....


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

i am a new owner of an american bully. I do like the breed alot. I took her to the vet on monday and she weighed 16.3 pounds on the day that she turned 12 weeks... My APBT was more like 10ish pounds at 12 weeks.... they are very similar dogs, but something isn't quite right to call them APBTs. She doesn't have one ounce of fat on her. She is a Razors Edge dog with a touch of Gotti (Juan himself lol). She is definately a toned down version of the APBT.


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