# We all know Blue is a recessive gene



## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I know someone can help me figure this out.... They're genetics questions...

We all know when consistantly breeding Blue x Blue generally is followed with skin conditions... Are dogs with any blue in their coat/nose color considered "blue" as far as genetics go?

Blue is a dilute (mutation) of black... you get blue from consistantly breeding Black x Black

So, my next question would be, if you take a Blue x Black is it the same as a Blue x Blue breeding... aka bringing the same skin conditions through or would it be back peddle to generally healthier dogs?


Does this make sense to ya'll?


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## rando (Dec 9, 2009)

Im new, but that is a very interesting question


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Good question I'm interested to find out too.


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

To add another layer of speculation to Shana's question...I also wonder if the skin conditions come from the blue gene entirely, or if it is just a coincidence, since a great deal of blue dogs will have similar ancestors somewhere in their line. (Like Lady has Juan Gotti on both sides) Maybe the original breeding stock just carried weak genes, and using them over and over has given rise to traits we associate with blue, but should really be associated with ancestors or even too tight line breeding, as I'm sure when breeders began making blues with frequency it was a result of much line breeding. 

As a speculative answer to Shana's question, and I am by no means a geneticist, I would think that mixing a totally unrelated black dog to the line would alleviate some of the issues. Since the dog would bring in fresh blood so to speak, and would, I assume, be tested for genetic illness. My guess would be that the litter would be black, (since the whole point was fresh blood, I would guess it would not be a blue carrier on purpose) and the pups would be het for blue. If later bred with pups from a similar, yet unrelated breeding I would guess it would produce a litter of partial blacks, and partial blues. I would speculate that those blues would be slightly healthier (statistically speaking). 

Like I said I am not a geneticist or an expert, I just enjoyed thinking aloud about the question. I also began wondering why there arent any blue pugs


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

FloorCandy said:


> To add another layer of speculation to Shana's question...I also wonder if the skin conditions come from the blue gene entirely, or if it is just a coincidence, since a great deal of blue dogs will have similar ancestors somewhere in their line. (Like Lady has Juan Gotti on both sides) Maybe the original breeding stock just carried weak genes, and using them over and over has given rise to traits we associate with blue, but should really be associated with ancestors or even too tight line breeding, as I'm sure when breeders began making blues with frequency it was a result of much line breeding.
> 
> As a speculative answer to Shana's question, and I am by no means a geneticist, I would think that mixing a totally unrelated black dog to the line would alleviate some of the issues. Since the dog would bring in fresh blood so to speak, and would, I assume, be tested for genetic illness. My guess would be that the litter would be black, (since the whole point was fresh blood, I would guess it would not be a blue carrier on purpose) and the pups would be het for blue. If later bred with pups from a similar, yet unrelated breeding I would guess it would produce a litter of partial blacks, and partial blues. I would speculate that those blues would be slightly healthier (statistically speaking).
> 
> Like I said I am not a geneticist or an expert, I just enjoyed thinking aloud about the question. I also began wondering why there arent any blue pugs


Oh that is a good question! I guess I'll have to do some reading on the blue color in other breeds as well to see if they suffer from the same issues as bulldogs. Like you said it has to come from some where...


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I look more at the individual function of the dog as the determining factor.
Two healthy, fit, strong dogs with a job will more often than not produce healthy pups.
Jobs like weight pull, hunting, agility....those things weed out sickness more often than not.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Sampsons Dad said:


> I look more at the individual function of the dog as the determining factor.
> Two healthy, fit, strong dogs with a job will more often than not produce healthy pups.
> Jobs like weight pull, hunting, agility....those things weed out sickness more often than not.


That generally is correct, but not always the case. The one litter I had... for the last 4 generations there weren't any ancestors with demodex, yet one of the three out of my litter had it. Of course that dog will be spayed in due time... There are other factors that happened in her first few months on this earth that could have been an outside factor with the demodex.

Just because mom and dad are healthy does not mean that they will produce healthy dogs. IMO jobs have nothing to do with heriditary issues... it comes down to selective breeding, and breeding for the right purposes. Breeding a dog to hunt, weight pull, or agility will not get rid of skin conditions, weak hips, elbows or heart murmurs. I love the technology we have today to thoroughly check breeding stock... the goal here is prevention. I have very functional bullies... not the over done stuff you generally see. I want to keep them functional, healthy, and still a little bully.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

My black dog has demodex, it came from her black mom.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I really don't support breeding FOR a certain color, but I was wondering... is it wrong to breed AWAY from a certain color for over all health purposes? or is that considered the same thing?


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> I really don't support breeding FOR a certain color, but I was wondering... is it wrong to breed AWAY from a certain color for over all health purposes? or is that considered the same thing?


Well if it were proved that only dogs who were red had seizures, would it be wrong to not breed reds?


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Shes Got Heart said:


> Well if it were proved that only dogs who were red had seizures, would it be wrong to not breed reds?


I think it would be wrong to eliminate red from your breeding program based off of color alone if the dog is proven healthy at the proper breeding age... all the necessary health screenings preformed Ect.

I don't mind blue dogs, but I do mind the chronic skin issues that are generally associated with them. I wonder if more diversity in color itself would counter act some of the problems that seem to be linked to them.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Shes Got Heart said:


> My black dog has demodex, it came from her black mom.


All dogs have demodex on their skin. The Demodex becomes a problem if the immune response is not sufficient to handle the normal levels.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I have never had a blue pit bull so I don't know about breeding them.
I am actually partial to black dogs with a white blaze...or red dogs.
The only thing I know about blues comes from my experience with Neapolitans.
Blue X Blue = Blue 
But black brindle X blue will often produce a rainbow....lol
But I have not had problems except for short bouts of localized demo under the chin where they are prone to staff infections.


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

Well, I was thinking about this just now in the shower lol. I am also wondering if the breed ancestry has a place in this. It is commonly speculated that bullies have neo bred in, both to increase size and produce other traits, which include blue coloring. I know many bully breeds like EBs are known for skin issues, as are shar peis. So I am led to wonder if the breeding for loose skin also raises the likelihood of other skin conditions? I have no direct experience with neos, but my guess would be that skin issues can be a concern just like other droopy dogs lol. I bring this up because my EB, even though he came from a very reputable breeder who health tested and certified her dogs, has seasonal flank alopecia (which is probably best case scenario in an EB, as he has no other problems). He is not a blue dog by any means, but his breed is known for skin issues, and look how many people cross EBs with pits to create various styles of bullies.

edit: I know that there have been blue game dogs historically, and I dont remember ever reading they were culled for suspicion of bad traits, just that they were less common as it was a more rare color, and recessive. I have known people with blue APBTs who's dogs did not have skin issues. This is what made me think about neos and EBs being the ones to pass the traits.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> I think it would be wrong to eliminate red from your breeding program based off of color alone if the dog is proven healthy at the proper breeding age... all the necessary health screenings preformed Ect.
> 
> I don't mind blue dogs, but I do mind the chronic skin issues that are generally associated with them. I wonder if more diversity in color itself would counter act some of the problems that seem to be linked to them.


I'm making no actual proof that only red dogs have seizures. I meant to say... if the red gene also contained the same for epilepsy would it be right to continue with the color.

Have you seen that pedigreed dogs exposed about the cavilier spaniel, they have this awful brain condition that exists in almost all the breed now, and even some of the champ dogs have the disease and are still bred?


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

The skin folds leave a nice spot for yeast and or staph infections in a suppressed immune system.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Yes, I've also noticed more staph issues with the blue dogs.... the bullies I own when the staph comes it generally is on their bellies/between their legs. I didn't intend for this to necessarily be a Am Bully issue, but a blue skin issue in general. The pup that I have that had Demo was localized as well, on her rear left leg. 

Like you said there are more issues than just demodex... staph, skin allergies ect.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Sampsons Dad said:


> All dogs have demodex on their skin. The Demodex becomes a problem if the immune response is not sufficient to handle the normal levels.


Yeah... I know... I have a dog who suffered demodex mange severely.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I think the two go together, I believe the demo gets itchy and the dog scratches and gets the area infected with the staph.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

Shes Got Heart said:


> I'm making no actual proof that only red dogs have seizures. I meant to say... if the red gene also contained the same for epilepsy would it be right to continue with the color.
> 
> Have you seen that pedigreed dogs exposed about the cavilier spaniel, they have this awful brain condition that exists in almost all the breed now, and even some of the champ dogs have the disease and are still bred?


lol I knew it was a hypotheical question/annalogy, i just answered it as best as i could!

No I haven't read about the Cav. Spaniel. That kinda intriques me... a brain condition...which affects temperament i'm guessing?


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## FloorCandy (Feb 19, 2009)

an article on Cavaliers

Syringomyelia (SM) and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Helena's was so bad, that people couldn't even tell she was a black dog. People thought she was blue! And the same goes for my neighbors. The guy brings home a pup identical to my dog. He said it was a blue pup, when I actually saw the pup... this pup had NO HAIR, it did appear blue because it was only skin color! I told him this dog was NOT BLUE and it had a bad case of demo mange and he better take it to the vet, it had staph all over it. It was really bad. I had my pup Onyx at the time and I said "look at this pup compared to yours" The guy thought his dog was just shedding its puppy coat! Well he finally took my advice and got the pup to the vet and sure enough! I told him the pup would be black once he started growing hair. He still didnt' believe me, the pup grew black hair after about a month of treatment.  Kinda funny... cuz the guy really wanted a blue puppy and thought he was getting one!

This was Helena

At 8 weeks, hair loss started around the ear at this age









only about a month later...

























And about 8 months after ivermectin started









But at nearly 3 years old... she still loses her hair easily especially since we had flea's recently. I don't expect she'll ever have a full coat.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

That is a siiick condition that those CKCs have! I would definitley not breed that!!!! 

Helena was such a gorgeous little girl, that's too sad that it ate her up like that and she won't have a full coat. Have you tried Nustock????


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> That is a siiick condition that those CKCs have! I would definitley not breed that!!!!
> 
> Helena was such a gorgeous little girl, that's too sad that it ate her up like that and she won't have a full coat. Have you tried Nustock????


I did last year, but stupid stupid me... I misread the directions and I over applied it and it broke her into a rash on her tummy. So it took awhile for that to go away so I stopped using it. I had another bottle I was going to start applying again, but my boyf gave it to that dude that had the puppy and they never returned it... then they moved.  It was not even open yet.

Helena still recieved a ton of attention from people. I got tired of explaining the condition all the time and why her head was pink... also when you say "mange" People jerk their hand away and say "is it contagious" So I just started saying "skin condition"


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

were are thes blue dogs with health problems? i have 7 blue dogs and not one has any issues. i would like to know what blood line these problems are from because i have seen alot of blue dogs and not 1 has had any issues. is this all propaganda so people don't place value on a color? i don't know but its getting old to me! if blue dogs do have problems i guess i keep finding the exeptions to the rule. i know of only 1 person with alot of problems with there dogs health that is blue im not gonna name any names but i have seen alot more white dogs with problems.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> were are thes blue dogs with health problems? i have 7 blue dogs and not one has any issues. i would like to know what blood line these problems are from because i have seen alot of blue dogs and not 1 has had any issues. is this all propaganda so people don't place value on a color? i don't know but its getting old to me! if blue dogs do have problems i guess i keep finding the exeptions to the rule. i know of only 1 person with alot of problems with there dogs health that is blue im not gonna name any names but i have seen alot more white dogs with problems.


As I stated my experience is with blue Neo's not pits. I don't particularly care for blues so I never owned one. My pits have always been reds, black and whites, or buckskin.


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## Indica (Sep 23, 2008)

About breeding blue x black to strengthen the pups' vigor and vitality. I have heard that extended breeding of blue x blue after a few generations, the actual "blue" color will start to deteriorate and fade, and skin issues become more prominent. I have also heard that blues with a black dog up close, are a richer, darker blue, and are more vigorous health wise.

An interesting topic, of course, it is hard to say whether the skin defects are linked to the dilution genes or, like mentioned earlier, simply an product of popular dogs who are genetically inferior being bred over and under for many generations, thus the recessive genes for defects come up much more often.


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

BLUE PIT BULL MAN said:


> were are thes blue dogs with health problems? i have 7 blue dogs and not one has any issues. i would like to know what blood line these problems are from because i have seen alot of blue dogs and not 1 has had any issues. is this all propaganda so people don't place value on a color? i don't know but its getting old to me! if blue dogs do have problems i guess i keep finding the exeptions to the rule. i know of only 1 person with alot of problems with there dogs health that is blue im not gonna name any names but i have seen alot more white dogs with problems.


My personal dog with skin issues is related to your dogs... turpins, dentons, wildes, TNT... It is a problem, you just have been lucky depending on your purchasing style. The more you breed blue x blue you WILL get issues it's guaranteed.

Indica, that's what I was thinking the philosophy would be... i was just wondering if anyone has hands on experience with it to prove it true?

No one else as any other input??? I know there are some people on here who are "genetics freaks" lol.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

do you have a pedigree for your dog that i could see? i would be realy interested how closely they are bred. i know what i have and were it came from and i know that there are several dogs in those lines so maybe it could be denton turpin wilder tnt but could be from other dogs on those yards. i would realy like to see because if its in my dog i wanna know!!! please help me out.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

Bump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Indigo Bully Connection (Dec 21, 2006)

I've already shown you the pedigree at one point, but i'll find it again and send it to you again...I'm pretty dang sure that this is a blue problem... a mutation problem not a line problem.


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## bluefamily (Aug 8, 2007)

Just because you have blue x blue doesn't mean you will always get a blue In our last litter, we bred blue x blue and got blue, fawn and a cream color. No don't forget for every blue dominant gene, you also have the recessive genes in play. in our last litter we had blu x blue dominant fro blue, then we had a blue fawn dominant recessive, and then a cream color recessive recessive as the dominant trait. what ever is the make up of dominant and recessive genes available are the chips you have to go on.

it is literally like playing craps. You have 2 dice with the same numbers on them but your goal is to get 7. to reach that goal of 7 you can get a 6 &1, 5 &2, 4&3. 
The reverse is also true. You can get 1&6, 2&5 and 3&4 (understanding in my analogy the first number listed in a pair is the dominant trait and the 2nd of the pair is the recessive trait.) Then what it boils down to is which zygote takes which set of traits, and that goes for every single trait-coat color, skin health, bone structure, ear drop, teeth set, muzzle length etc, etc.

Is that clearer?


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

Indigo Bully Connection said:


> I've already shown you the pedigree at one point, but i'll find it again and send it to you again...I'm pretty dang sure that this is a blue problem... a mutation problem not a line problem.


im sorry i don't remember seeing it i just remember you telling me about the lines and saying she was from the same. i do have alot going on but i would love to see it again and i think you also said your dog had alot of RE in it too if im not mistaken


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

the top half of the bottom half of your dog is simular. but thats not even close to being bred the same way as mine.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

I think it has to do more with what hidden genes your dog caries not it's specific color. When they first had blue rats they mainly came from one source and they had blood clotting problems.Or so some people said. People assumed it was due to the fact they were blue. In time they were bred to healthier lines and this is no longer a huge issue but people will still say that they won't breed blue rats because of that problem.AFRMA - Medical - Blue Rat Bleeding Disorders/Blue Rats with Hemophilia

I had a white red nose who inherited a weak immune system from her mother(brindle) she had demodex mange over her entire body. My moms dog is brindle and she gets skin issues occasionally.

Also the more you line breed or inbreed the less diversity animals have in their immune systems. So after being line bred so long the animals will almost all have the immune systems and if something like a virus/germ/allergen enters their system that they have weak immunity against. It goes down hill. You could also line breed to up the immunity against certain diseases or allergens.

So I think it's best to breed dogs that are healthy overall including skin. Breed Healthy x Healthy and spay/neuter any puppies that are not up to standard. Continue this way and you will create a line of healthy dogs. So I don't think it has anything to do with breeding blue x blue, blue x black, etc. If you breed specifically for pigment then I see no reason why blue x blue should produce lighter less pigmented puppies unless you select lighter mates each time. If you continued to select the darkest pups for breeding the pigment would not be so faded. There are most likely genes that cause a lightening of pigment besides the ones that cause red and blue. So if you selected against those then your colors would stay darker. Although I don't see a problem with lighter colored blues. I personally like more sky blue coloration in my rats and dogs than it being almost black. lol. Personal preference.

Also there are lots of color genes that aren't mapped yet and they don't always know why or how certain colors are produced. Until more recently it was tested by the trail and error of breeding. Now we can test for some colors as well as some diseases before the dogs are ever bred. I mean as soon as a puppy is old enough to have some blood taken you could have it tested for genetic diseases and take it out of your program before it's even thinking of hitting puberty.


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## aimee235 (Apr 29, 2007)

Oh. I believe there are also multiple genes that can cause blue. In rats from other countries some of the genes that cause the same colors are not compatible. So some blue to blue or cinnamon to cinnamon or mink to mink breedings will make black babies. I think the same is true for dogs but since it seems to be taboo to breed for color we probably won't find out until they develop tests for all the different color genes.

This link has some color genetic info and punnet square stuff.
Genetics....Briefly...


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