# Pits and Bite Work



## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

I am pretty interested in getting my new boy into Bite Work/Schuszhund(sp) I am wondering if anyone here does this and sort of what it entails or how to test if a puppy would be good. I of course don't want to encourage him to start biting people so young (he's still a baby!) but I don't want him to loose the drive either. SO I suppose any websites or suggestions would be great. Thanks!


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## shadowgames (Jul 3, 2008)

It is your dog and not mine but what need do you have for a dog of this level of training, is the best question to ask yourself. Most APBT are not true man biters, and should be put down if they are but a number of APBT's loyalty runs deep enough for their owners not to need to train this human aggressiveness into them. They will protect you and would die for you, so this training is necessarily not the way to go. IMO.

Secondly, if you are interested in this type of working dog, why did purchase or select a APBT, when other breeds such as the German Shepard, Rottie, Doberman or the best of the best a German Malinois (not for the faint of heart) would be better choices. APBT can't do what a protection dog can, and a protection dog DEFINTELY can't do what a APBT can.

Your dog is born or should be born with the number #1 rule of all fanciers and breeders, gamebred, APBT, bully style, Am. Staff or any form of the APBT is not to be human aggressive. Why reprogram a dog that has been bred against these traits for years.

I am not being cocky just truthful. The APBT has many functions and would excel in bite work but that is against the grain of wood. What will you accomplish if you have excellent bred dog and excellent bite work training, then something happens that changes your lifestyle or living situation? Many things to consider besides where to get training for canine. Just trying to help.


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

I appreciate that however, several people do bite work with their APBT's. I picked an APBT because thats the only dog I care to own. I am curious about schtuzhund and have wanted to try it out for years, wether it proceeds to bite work specificly or not.


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

Here's a little something to look at.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

There are many aspects to Schutzhund not just bite work.

Doing it can be quite a controversial issue within the APBT community for the reasons already brought up as well as the general publics perceptions of the breed already as well as their lack of understanding of sports such as Schutzhund.

There are APBTs successfully competing in the sport however they are not trained per say for example like you would a GSD. Training improperly with someone who does not know the breed can pretty much ruin the dog in my opinion.

If you are truly interested in looking into it, I suggest you ask people like the below who can give you better insight to the sport because they do work their APBTs in it.
http://howardsworkingapbts.20fr.com/
http://www.ca-k9services.com/about.html
http://ca-k9services.com/WPBTCA/index.html


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

As I said above wether it proceeds into bite work specificly or not I would still like to do it.
Thanks for the links Patch I will check those out.


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## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

Me and Sydney belong to an all-breed Schutzhund Club that is full of great people. There is more to it then just bite work, Tracking-Obedience-Protection which in my opinion help to make the dog complete and balanced mentally. Training is the most important aspect, not over working a dog...find a good trainer one that knows how to work with more then just a GSD. They are out there it took me a while to find one within driving distance, but I couldn't be happier! We have many bulldogs in our group, I have the only APBT they have dubbed her the "cougar" because she is high flying...LOL! Good luck I hope you find what you are looking for...it can be alot of fun and good bonding!


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

I think I found a Schutzhund club here in boise, looks like they are all GSD's but I sent them an email.
Do you have pics of Sydney working? Those owuld be awsome to see.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

BedlamBully said:


> I think I found a Schutzhund club here in boise, looks like they are all GSD's but I sent them an email.
> Do you have pics of Sydney working? Those owuld be awsome to see.


Here are some pics of Sydney doin her thing.

http://www.gopitbull.com/pitbullforums/pictures/6066-more-schutzhund.html
http://www.gopitbull.com/pitbullforums/pictures/6014-working-like-dog.html


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

training a dog for pp starts with obediance,a properly trained protection dog is safer than a apbt that has no basic obediance and has never been trained in pp,if people have a problem with that,it's there problem not yours,there ignorant and should be ignored...


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

Well we will of course go through the basic obediance first. The two girls are in their classes now and Lugz has started puppy socialization. I think it looks like a great way to spend time with your dog


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

This is the dam to My Touche' and Bodacious 
http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/worknk9/pepper.html


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

At one point in time I was really against this practice with an APBT. However I began to think about it objectively and fairly and honestly NOT ALLOWING it is not fair to the ABPT. There is nothing truly negative about it and as Cane said you now have more control over your dog. I think its a good outlet for the dogs and great fun.


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## pipsqweek (Jul 22, 2007)

Personal Protection dogs are a big responsability to take on. regardless of the breed. I think Ivan Balabanov is the best at it right now. His approach is a wonderfully refreshing and fun way to train a dog in Schutzhund. It revolves mostly around playing a tug-a-war game which pitbulls love to do, so it really fits the breed. He works in florida, but you should definitely check him out.


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

there are some great protection work pictures in this group of pictures. They are from the Mason Dixon Classic that was held in VA last week. http://www.fidopix.com/index.php?dir_name=mdc2008&ind=0&file=thumbnails.php


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## jbh38 (Apr 26, 2008)

I had the same opinion of protection and pit bulls, but I tell you, the more you see the competitions and the dogs, they are so well behaved until they are let go to do their work, or play to them.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Leri Hanson has put more titles on pitbulls than any other person i believe,she's out of so.cal and can be found on the working pitbull message board[also dose great thing's with her bandog scrappy girl].


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I wanted to start a PP class with my Mastiffs but I am not pro pit in PP.
There are much better breeds for such a job. I like mine friendly to a fault.


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## shadyridgekennels (Oct 14, 2005)

we work our older male Max in pp he has his SCHII tittles. ppl allways are so closed minded when asked about pits doing pp.first off it takes a very special apbt to be able to be trained for it. not all are okay to do the tasks.first there OB needs to be impecable<sp. both on and off leash.and it needs to be kept up.third they dont see the 'person' if you will that there attacking. its the sleeve and to them its a game.I can turn Max on and shut him off like a light switch. the same decoy he was just 'attacking' , he is now sitting in his lap.oh yea and there is a BIG difference in PERSONAL PROTECTION and SCHUTZHUND!!


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## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

shadyridgekennels said:


> we work our older male Max in pp he has his SCHII tittles. ppl allways are so closed minded when asked about pits doing pp.first off it takes a very special apbt to be able to be trained for it. not all are okay to do the tasks.first there OB needs to be impecable<sp. both on and off leash.and it needs to be kept up.third they dont see the 'person' if you will that there attacking. its the sleeve and to them its a game.I can turn Max on and shut him off like a light switch. the same decoy he was just 'attacking' , he is now sitting in his lap.oh yea and there is a BIG difference in PERSONAL PROTECTION and SCHUTZHUND!!


Big difference! If you understand Schutzhund then you understand that it creates a more balanced stable dog then anything else. A dog must exhibit an amazing amount of self control to become titled, and there are rules in place as to how old these dogs must be before they are able to even attempt for a title...Personal protection if not taught properly can cause a dog to become unbalanced drivey and to act before it thinks...

People think just because I have a sleeve or a bite suit I can teach my dog personal protection but that is far from true...it's very important not to push a dog past it limits, in anything, and work them too hard.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

cane76 said:


> Leri Hanson has put more titles on pitbulls than any other person i believe,she's out of so.cal and can be found on the working pitbull message board[also dose great thing's with her bandog scrappy girl].


 The one link I posted is to Leri's website. She owns Capone which is one of my favorite boys  I don't know about who has titled the most APBTs though in the sport as there are quite a few out there titling their dogs.


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## shadyridgekennels (Oct 14, 2005)

Sydney said:


> Big difference! If you understand Schutzhund then you understand that it creates a more balanced stable dog then anything else. A dog must exhibit an amazing amount of self control to become titled, and there are rules in place as to how old these dogs must be before they are able to even attempt for a title...Personal protection if not taught properly can cause a dog to become unbalanced drivey and to act before it thinks...
> 
> People think just because I have a sleeve or a bite suit I can teach my dog personal protection but that is far from true...it's very important not to push a dog past it limits, in anything, and work them too hard.


yup i agree!!! it took me for ever to get his tittles


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I am far from ignorant people.
Some people like cucumbers pickled....
I don't like pit bulls doing any type of Bite work.
If you want them to that is your perogative.
That does not make me ignorant.
The pit bull should not be promoted as a guard in my opinion.
If you all like that aspect that is fine for you. Don't make a blanket statement and call me ignorant because I don't agree with what you are doing.


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## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

I apologize if anyone here as called you outright ignorant...but are you familiar with the ins and out of Schutzhund? If you are not then you are not what I would call ignorant, but uneducated. You do have a right to disagree, I just hope you know exactly what it is you disagree with...because I have seen some beautifully trained Schutzhund dogs that might help a robber out of the house with the good stuff...LOL!


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I have not been to a Shutz trial.
but I have read a few books and watched some shutzhund trials on TV.
It looks fun and very useful. I realy like the dogs that find scent tracks and all that.
I just do not like pit bulls promoted as a good guard dog.
You see the educated people are not what I worry about.
Its the idiot that sees a shutz trial and decides to half train his bulldog to bite without an out command. 

I feel it was better for the pit bull when there was much less exposure to the public. Bafoons ruin a good thing.


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

Sampsons Dad said:


> I have not been to a Shutz trial.
> but I have read a few books and watched some shutzhund trials on TV.
> It looks fun and very useful. I realy like the dogs that find scent tracks and all that.
> I just do not like pit bulls promoted as a good guard dog.
> ...


I agree with you...partly.
You have your right to your opinions...nothing wrong there.
There are alot of idiots out there who watch something and then go off half cocked thinking their dog can do that....it is a disaster in the making I know.
Point is that there are some really great Apbt's out there that would excel at this work if given just half the chance.
Why should they only be left to show rings, weight pulls, etc.?

By the way, pretty dog in your pic.


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## Sydney (Aug 14, 2007)

Sampsons Dad said:


> I have not been to a Shutz trial.
> but I have read a few books and watched some shutzhund trials on TV.
> It looks fun and very useful. I realy like the dogs that find scent tracks and all that.
> I just do not like pit bulls promoted as a good guard dog.
> ...


Schutzhund doesn't MAKE a guard dog...but I totally agree with you on the "idiot that sees a schutz trial and decides to half train his bulldog to bite without an out command" But if you just train bite work/protection then really can you call it Schutzhund...to me Schutzhund is all encompassing...

A well trained Schutzhund dog is a finely tuned machine...a dog taught to bite for fun and without structure and balance is an accident waiting to happen

But can you really be against something just because a couple of idiots are doing it all wrong and presenting a bad image...hmmmmm JMO but isn't that prejudice something we are trying to fight


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

One thing's for sure,take a walk down any poor neighboorhood and the number one guard dog of choice is the apbt,ivelived there so i can speak on it,no other dog strickes fear in people like a apbt,fact....


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

One thing's for sure,take a walk down any poor neighboorhood and the number one guard dog of choice is the apbt,ivelived there so i can speak on it,no other dog strickes fear in people like a apbt,fact....


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Nah around Providence and Brooklyn Rottis were the "Man Eaters."
Pits are too common to evoke the fear of the masses anymore.
At least around the places I have been.


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

Sampsons Dad said:


> Nah around Providence and Brooklyn Rottis were the "Man Eaters."
> Pits are too common to evoke the fear of the masses anymore.
> At least around the places I have been.


I USED TO LIVE IN RHODE ISLAND AND YOU ARE RIGHT THEY ARE WAY TOO COMMON-NOT JUST IN PROVIDENCE ALSO EAST GREENWICH. MY BROTHER WHO STILL LIVE THERE SAYS HE SEEN ALOT ROTTIES AND DOBIES. AND IN SOME OF THE RICHER AREAS PEOPLE HAVE GERMAN SHEPHERDS


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> One thing's for sure,take a walk down any poor neighboorhood and the number one guard dog of choice is the apbt,ivelived there so i can speak on it,no other dog strickes fear in people like a apbt,fact....


What does that have to do with anything? People fearing them doesn't make them good guard dogs. The reason why people fear them is because of all the attacks and maulings you hear about in the media. A 120 pound rottweiler staring you down will cause just as much fear as any dog. Trust me.

Also, being a poor neighborhood, of course pit bulls are going to be prevailant. Pit bulls are one of the cheaper breeds. BYBs sell them for as low as 50 bucks. Try to find rotties, dobes, and GSDs for that price. To do so would be much more difficult.

Plus, pit bulls are a huge fad in a lot of areas for macho men. Like chihuahuas are for fru fru women. lol.


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

****** said:


> What does that have to do with anything? People fearing them doesn't make them good guard dogs. The reason why people fear them is because of all the attacks and maulings you hear about in the media. A 120 pound rottweiler staring you down will cause just as much fear as any dog. Trust me.
> 
> Also, being a poor neighborhood, of course pit bulls are going to be prevailant. Pit bulls are one of the cheaper breeds. BYBs sell them for as low as 50 bucks. Try to find rotties, dobes, and GSDs for that price. To do so would be much more difficult.
> 
> Plus, pit bulls are a huge fad in a lot of areas for macho men. Like chihuahuas are for fru fru women. lol.


fru fru women...that is so funny.
You are right though, byb's have done more harm then good to the breed. I know you have to start somewhere when you begin your breeding program, but they mostly just throw 2 pits together, have pups, and claim they got the best pups in the world with no papers to prove it.
I know when I bred Rotties, no one would walk in my yard, not even my family members, they honked before they got out, even though my dogs were sweet.
My male Apollo was 150lb. German Rottie import, and believe me just a look at him scared the crap out of people. My female Kix's Victory was the one you needed to worry about though, and she was smaller then Apollo.

But alot of dog's are brought just for the intimidation factor to deterr people. And in some cases that is all that is needed. You are a complete idiot if you walk into the territory of someone with a GSD, rottie, dobi, or Apbt, and not know the dogs/people there.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

Does anyone really think that protection/ bite sport training teaches a dog to be human aggressive?


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> Does anyone really think that protection/ bite sport training teaches a dog to be human aggressive?


I don't.... if the dog has had the PROPER training along with excellent OB training.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

I think it does.
In the same way that teaching my Dogo to catch boar made him want to catch more. It gives them a green light under certain circumstances.
I much prefer my pits to think that teeth on skin equals a head bustin!
I think if a true situation should arise the dogs wil do what must be done.
But I prefer them not to dominent over humans. All I need is for them to alert and I can handle the rest.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

> I don't.... if the dog has had the PROPER training along with excellent OB training.


... add to that a rock solid temperament and a handler who knows what they are doing.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

****** said:


> What does that have to do with anything? People fearing them doesn't make them good guard dogs. The reason why people fear them is because of all the attacks and maulings you hear about in the media. A 120 pound rottweiler staring you down will cause just as much fear as any dog. Trust me.
> 
> Also, being a poor neighborhood, of course pit bulls are going to be prevailant. Pit bulls are one of the cheaper breeds. BYBs sell them for as low as 50 bucks. Try to find rotties, dobes, and GSDs for that price. To do so would be much more difficult.
> 
> Plus, pit bulls are a huge fad in a lot of areas for macho men. Like chihuahuas are for fru fru women. lol.


Ok "******[i know what ****** spells backwards,trying to be funny?]Walk up to one of my dogs,especialy in my neighboor hood and see what happens,i guarentee it one my life.............Oak Park is filled with guard dogs of the pitbull type,like it or not,no rotties,s a few english mastiffs,mutts and american bulldogs,and any will end your day quick as fu#@....A few of my dogs would charge off the pourch if not properly secured,and i had no problem with that in a area full of shotgun weilding thugs and prostitutes and dealers,fu#@ them,they get what they deserve....


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

What if you have pits and a chihuahua...does that make you a macho fru fru?


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

BedlamBully said:


> What if you have pits and a chihuahua...does that make you a macho fru fru?


ROFL :rofl: ....no that makes you a macho fru fru woman...lol!!!!

No you have to smokin barrels and a pee shooter......j/k... lol!!!


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## shadyridgekennels (Oct 14, 2005)

BlueBull said:


> Does anyone really think that protection/ bite sport training teaches a dog to be human aggressive?


i dont, again there not attacking the person they are attacking the sleeve which they are thinking its a toy and a game.like i posted when my male trains he would be attacking the decoy and then in the next 10 min be on his lap licking his face.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

when the selection and training is done the RIGHT way, a protection or other bite trained dog is so much more trustworthy and realiable in thier dy to day interactions with people than a dog that isnt.

that the big thing people lose sightof they see a dog running and biting a sleeve but dont realize how much work and training does into the dog before they are even presented a sleeve. Temperment testing, Obedience, socilization are all pivotal and only after a dog is porven and tested in those areas would a respectable trainer even consider working the dog in a bite situation. The biggest point of the trining is to really put the dog into various situation and just teach it how to react.

If it were aggression the dog would be on point at all times but i have seen a decoy finish aggitation drop the sleeve and walk right up to the dog and pet it. It definately isnt teaching a dog aggression for humans is okay.
get over that mindset.

Cane you and I think the same way as soon as i saw that name that is what jumped into my mind. ****** my ass. At any rate i as well challenge you to get to my front door with just Diesel in the yard. I will put the Fila and the Corso away. I will bet money that you will not make an attempt to enter the fence.:snap:


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

I have a tendancy to leave my house unlocked and I leave the back door open at night so it stays cool. Whenever people ask if I am afraid someone will break in I always tell them I feel sorry for the poor sap that picks my house. With Four pits and a noisey chihuahua they'd probably poo themselves.

I agree that Schtuzhund makes for a more trustworthy dog. THIS is the main reason I want to start..perhaps I should have titled the thread better. 

I never noticed ******'s name. I assumed it was a play on the dogs name. I also assumed the dog sname was Reggie sorry if I'm wrong.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

Maybe (HOPEFULLY) you are right about the name... I sure hope so.

Its possible that i am overly sensative of such things.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

i think reagin is spelled like that as in RONALD REAGIN,either way,my dogs proactive,he wont have to be provocked,hell carge and then its over,thats why he lives his life tethered or by my side,other than that great dog,only a fooled want to be bit by a dobbie rather than my dog,100,s and 100,s of stiches,i have a photo of when my last dog was provocked and bit my ex on the head,80 plus stitches from one bite,not a guard dog my ass,lol......


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

MetalGirl30 said:


> fru fru women...that is so funny.
> You are right though, byb's have done more harm then good to the breed. I know you have to start somewhere when you begin your breeding program, but they mostly just throw 2 pits together, have pups, and claim they got the best pups in the world with no papers to prove it.
> I know when I bred Rotties, no one would walk in my yard, not even my family members, they honked before they got out, even though my dogs were sweet.
> My male Apollo was 150lb. German Rottie import, and believe me just a look at him scared the crap out of people. My female Kix's Victory was the one you needed to worry about though, and she was smaller then Apollo.
> ...


I seen a gigantic rottweiler today. He was way oversized. The sweetest guy ever, but man did he give me goose bumps. Yikes. He was a pretty dog.

Hell, I know a standard poodle that can take a chunk of meat right out of you. lol.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> Ok "******[i know what ****** spells backwards,trying to be funny?]Walk up to one of my dogs,especialy in my neighboor hood and see what happens,i guarentee it one my life.............Oak Park is filled with guard dogs of the pitbull type,like it or not,no rotties,s a few english mastiffs,mutts and american bulldogs,and any will end your day quick as fu#@....A few of my dogs would charge off the pourch if not properly secured,and i had no problem with that in a area full of shotgun weilding thugs and prostitutes and dealers,fu#@ them,they get what they deserve....


No, actually I wasnt trying to be funny. My fiance was  . Although most people don't catch onto it.

I am not saying that there are pit bulls out there that arent human aggressive. There are, I'm in no way blind. Of course there are! HA pit bulls are not to be taken lightly either, I get that.

To me, its sad that some pitties are aggressive towards people. I dont like to see that in the breed at all. I think a lot of bybs are breeding in human aggression, because they WANT a guard dog. I will say that I wouldnt feel sorry for any thief to get a tearing into if they trespass on someones property, regardless of breed.

Thats my take on it!!


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> when the selection and training is done the RIGHT way, a protection or other bite trained dog is so much more trustworthy and realiable in thier dy to day interactions with people than a dog that isnt.
> 
> that the big thing people lose sightof they see a dog running and biting a sleeve but dont realize how much work and training does into the dog before they are even presented a sleeve. Temperment testing, Obedience, socilization are all pivotal and only after a dog is porven and tested in those areas would a respectable trainer even consider working the dog in a bite situation. The biggest point of the trining is to really put the dog into various situation and just teach it how to react.
> 
> ...


My ass what?? I never once said that HA pit bulls are not "scary" or to not take them seriously. That would be YOU making assumptions. I would be a fool to think that. can you clarify what your point is here?

As far as your "pit bull" goes. I'm sorry but isn't he actually an american bully? And aren't american bullies a mixture of APBT, but also different mastiff breeds? News flash, but mastiffs are guardian breeds. Correct me if your Deisel really is pure bred APBT. I could be wrong, I dont know.

To be honest, I wouldn't enter your yard strictly due to intimidation factor. I dont think anybody would. Whether it be your american bully, fila, or corso. But then again, I wouldn't enter a yard with an aggressive golden retriever either. LOL.


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> when the selection and training is done the RIGHT way, a protection or other bite trained dog is so much more trustworthy and realiable in thier dy to day interactions with people than a dog that isnt.
> 
> that the big thing people lose sightof they see a dog running and biting a sleeve but dont realize how much work and training does into the dog before they are even presented a sleeve. Temperment testing, Obedience, socilization are all pivotal and only after a dog is porven and tested in those areas would a respectable trainer even consider working the dog in a bite situation. The biggest point of the trining is to really put the dog into various situation and just teach it how to react.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: i GUESS i should of said all that to begin with...well I did....like I said it would take an exceptional dog (pitbull) to do the work. There is more to it then just letting your dog hang off a bite sleeve or chasing a man down to bite the sleeve.


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

cane76 said:


> i think reagin is spelled like that as in RONALD REAGIN,either way,my dogs proactive,he wont have to be provocked,hell carge and then its over,thats why he lives his life tethered or by my side,other than that great dog,only a fooled want to be bit by a dobbie rather than my dog,100,s and 100,s of stiches,i have a photo of when my last dog was provocked and bit my ex on the head,80 plus stitches from one bite,not a guard dog my ass,lol......


Same thing with my dog Ceaser. He protected a woman in danger and us. He paid a small price for it, but is all healed up now. Who knows what would of happen if he had not been in the house at that time.
So to sit there and say a Pit Bull will not protect...I personally do not believe it b/c I have seen with my own to eyes, the exact opposite.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

****** said:


> My ass what?? I never once said that HA pit bulls are not "scary" or to not take them seriously. That would be YOU making assumptions. I would be a fool to think that. can you clarify what your point is here?
> 
> As far as your "pit bull" goes. I'm sorry but isn't he actually an american bully? And aren't american bullies a mixture of APBT, but also different mastiff breeds? News flash, but mastiffs are guardian breeds. Correct me if your Deisel really is pure bred APBT. I could be wrong, I dont know.
> 
> To be honest, I wouldn't enter your yard strictly due to intimidation factor. I dont think anybody would. Whether it be your american bully, fila, or corso. But then again, I wouldn't enter a yard with an aggressive golden retriever either. LOL.


Noone is talking about human aggressive dogs, we are talking about dogs that have been trained to guard... or at least i am. Deisel isnt human aggressive in the slightest actually, I had a small get together at my house a few weeks ago nothign major, maybe 20 or so people but most of them were not known to diesel. he spen that vast majority of the evening laying in the livingroom floor as people walked over him and remarked how well mannered he was. I wouldnt have a dog that was blatantly human aggressive... even my Fila isnt "human aggressive". a human aggressive dog is usually unpredictable, all of my dogs are very even tempered, i know exactly what thier triggers are and what will and will not ellicit a reaction. and what that reaction will be. how do i know this becuase we train around various scenarios and direct the dog to the proper reaction for the given circumstance. in the case of someone entering my property uninvited Diesel will rush the fenceline with the most intimidating display that you have ever seen. most people turn tail as soon as they see him coming thier direction running, lol. But realistically they are in do danger... he isnt goign to bite, its a display. That is the very reason that i have a corso and a fila. if you stand your ground and talk to him sweetly you will be stroking that big broad head and his tail will be a waggin... the only dangerous thing after that is the drool. Diesel's job is family protection. Put in that same situation with my daughters in the yard playing and then its an entirely different scenario... its no longer a display... its a warning. As far as diesel's breed... thats a good question and the answer is i dont know. On paper- he is a pit bull, his personality- very pit bull, his look is where i draw question. He is a very big dog, usually in the 90-100 range depending on the time of year. Large broad head short muzzle no charactersistic loose floppy skin or wrinkles but i get a "mastiffy" vibe from him like ther might be something back behind in a ways. DOnt know if there is anythng to it or not though. I have researched his pedigree and have gone back 7 generations and seen pretty much every dog and many siblings for every dog back there and i cant find the one that "tells the tale". I will say that his sire has thrown other dogs that were just really big and oversized dogs, but he has also thrown a few males that would be considered to be "pocket pits" at little more that 50 pounds.
Based on what i know about the APBT and what i know about the various breeds used in California in the early to mid 90's in creating bigger/ blue-er dogs... i err on the side of caution, or probablility, and just call him an american bully.

as for as the "******, my ass" comment... i meant the way that your name spelled backwards is incredibly offensive, if that is the signifigance of it that is.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

BlueBull said:


> Based on what i know about the APBT and what i know about the various breeds used in California in the early to mid 90's in creating bigger/ blue-er dogs... i err on the side of caution, or probablility, and just call him an american bully.
> 
> as for as the "******, my ass" comment... i meant the way that your name spelled backwards is incredibly offensive, if that is the signifigance of it that is.


If he's o.g gray line,i figure i know possably were were the out cross/crosses came from,a dog named cream/apbt/ddb with hung papers........
cream was camacho's son,but listed as raiders sire i do believe....







dont ask me about a line i care a little about yet no a thing or too...


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## litter mates (Jun 5, 2007)

BlueBull said:


> as for as the "******, my ass" comment... i meant the way that your name spelled backwards is incredibly offensive, if that is the signifigance of it that is.


man, your just looking to cause problems. maybe i'm just not geared that way, i would have never thought of that. oke:


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

Creama aka chihuahua aka chain gangs's barney is a dog owned by the owner of Raiders Dam Showtime. which is why the papers were so confusing, there are a lot of pedigrees that say either dog or both dogs, a few years ago there was a discussion bettween the owner of Camacho (warren) the owner of Cream (larry) and the true sire of that litter.

Raider is a camacho son, but thats something you would only know if you were deep into the line. based on a lot of the pedigrees that are out there i can see where you got your conclusion as well.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

litter mates said:


> man, your just looking to cause problems. maybe i'm just not geared that way, i would have never thought of that. oke:


:rofl: LOL, looking to cause problems? are you serious?

I am probably the most easygoing person i know... ask anyone that knows me. I just happen to be black so things like that, i notice.


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

Man those pit bull X DDB 's are always very impressive looking monsters.
----------------------------------------------------------

My Dogs charge and bark but will all accept a visitor.
Even nice JW's that come around (brave folks they are!) walk in and pet my pups. As I stated before I don't want my dogs to be aggy. If they will protect or not is questionable. I don't ever train dogs to get anything or even to bark at people so I have no idea what they would do incase of a bad guy intruding. All I know is that the police and my pistol takes over what the dogs wont handle whether it be a coyote a mean neighbors dog or an intruder.


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

SO this really has nothing to do with anything, but this thread has gotten pretty off anyway lol

Blue I LOVE your dog, just an awsome looking bully!


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

When i am home there is NOTHING on the property as dangerous as me.

That said i travel a lot and work odd hours, so my dogs real job is taking care of my wife and two daughters when i am away. which is why i have the breeds that i do and train as extensively as i do. I dont like to worry, even now when i am away from home and i get a call that there is a werid sound outside or that the dogs are barking, the first thing i ask is "where is Deisel?" If he is lounging on the couch half sleep its nothing. but if he jumps up and starts his security route from the front windows to the back door then the dogs are barking at something. the "outside" dogs bark triggers his reaction. if they are just making noise he barely opens his eyes but if they see soemthing that has them aggitated it get him off his duff real quick, hackles up tail high and on the move... we all sleep very easy, even if I'm 1000 miles away.


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

Hehe


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## litter mates (Jun 5, 2007)

BlueBull said:


> :rofl: LOL, looking to cause problems? are you serious?
> 
> I am probably the most easygoing person i know... ask anyone that knows me. I just happen to be black so things like that, i notice.


well, i don't think like that!!! plus i think that her dogs name is ******. i just thought that you were looking for a confrontation. if what you think her name means, i would find it offensive also.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

MetalGirl30 said:


> Same thing with my dog Ceaser. He protected a woman in danger and us. He paid a small price for it, but is all healed up now. Who knows what would of happen if he had not been in the house at that time.
> So to sit there and say a Pit Bull will not protect...I personally do not believe it b/c I have seen with my own to eyes, the exact opposite.


I think my posts are being misinterpreted, lol.

Never once did I say that pit bulls will not protect. If an owners life is in danger, then any dog would feel the need to take action. Many pit bulls WILL do that. My pit bull is friendly and would let a stranger into my house, but if the stranger threatened me in any way, then things would be much different. He WOULD do what he had to do to protect me. THAT does not make him a guard dog at all.

What I said was most pit bulls do not make good GUARD dogs. I meant that as in guarding the house, property, and feeling a need to guard their human at all times, in an aggressive manner. THAT comes natural to breeds such as dobermans, GSDs, and rottweilers. Those breeds are ALWAYS on guard and will not tolerate strangers. I guess different people have a different idea in what a guard dog really is. This is my view of a guard dog.

This is what I meant, lol. I didnt mean to say that APBTs will not protect its owner if something bad was happening. If a dog loves you, then he will at least try and protect you in certain situations. End of story. THAT is a completely different thing than being a guard dog.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> Noone is talking about human aggressive dogs, we are talking about dogs that have been trained to guard... or at least i am. Deisel isnt human aggressive in the slightest actually, I had a small get together at my house a few weeks ago nothign major, maybe 20 or so people but most of them were not known to diesel. he spen that vast majority of the evening laying in the livingroom floor as people walked over him and remarked how well mannered he was. I wouldnt have a dog that was blatantly human aggressive... even my Fila isnt "human aggressive". a human aggressive dog is usually unpredictable, all of my dogs are very even tempered, i know exactly what thier triggers are and what will and will not ellicit a reaction. and what that reaction will be. how do i know this becuase we train around various scenarios and direct the dog to the proper reaction for the given circumstance. in the case of someone entering my property uninvited Diesel will rush the fenceline with the most intimidating display that you have ever seen. most people turn tail as soon as they see him coming thier direction running, lol. But realistically they are in do danger... he isnt goign to bite, its a display. That is the very reason that i have a corso and a fila. if you stand your ground and talk to him sweetly you will be stroking that big broad head and his tail will be a waggin... the only dangerous thing after that is the drool. Diesel's job is family protection. Put in that same situation with my daughters in the yard playing and then its an entirely different scenario... its no longer a display... its a warning. As far as diesel's breed... thats a good question and the answer is i dont know. On paper- he is a pit bull, his personality- very pit bull, his look is where i draw question. He is a very big dog, usually in the 90-100 range depending on the time of year. Large broad head short muzzle no charactersistic loose floppy skin or wrinkles but i get a "mastiffy" vibe from him like ther might be something back behind in a ways. DOnt know if there is anythng to it or not though. I have researched his pedigree and have gone back 7 generations and seen pretty much every dog and many siblings for every dog back there and i cant find the one that "tells the tale". I will say that his sire has thrown other dogs that were just really big and oversized dogs, but he has also thrown a few males that would be considered to be "pocket pits" at little more that 50 pounds.
> Based on what i know about the APBT and what i know about the various breeds used in California in the early to mid 90's in creating bigger/ blue-er dogs... i err on the side of caution, or probablility, and just call him an american bully.
> 
> as for as the "******, my ass" comment... i meant the way that your name spelled backwards is incredibly offensive, if that is the signifigance of it that is.


First of all, I hope I didnt come off overly rude with my previous posts. I was only trying to explain my own opinion the best way that I could.

Your dog sounds like he has a great temperament. He sounds like a sweetheart. I hate to see pit bulls that would attack any person on the side walk. Thats not what the breed is about at all. I got a pit bull for companion reasons only, not to be a guardian of our home.

I've been apart of many forums, and this is the first one that had members who were offended of my dogs name. It is in no way meant to be offensive. I am FAR from being a racist. Its something that my fiance suggested and I thought it sounded cute, to be truthful with you. If I wanted it to be offensive, then I would have put the letters in the correct positions for that, lol. I'm not that kind of person to do something like that. I apologize for anyone who felt offended. It is simply just his name and nothing more than that!! To put it simply... it does NOT have a double meaning.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> i think reagin is spelled like that as in RONALD REAGIN,either way,my dogs proactive,he wont have to be provocked,hell carge and then its over,thats why he lives his life tethered or by my side,other than that great dog,only a fooled want to be bit by a dobbie rather than my dog,100,s and 100,s of stiches,i have a photo of when my last dog was provocked and bit my ex on the head,80 plus stitches from one bite,not a guard dog my ass,lol......


****** is pronounced as "Rejin". Hope that makes sense anyway. I call him Reggie for short a lot of time.

Different dogs have different protection levels. Pit bulls, especially game lines, tend to be more people friendly. With bybs now days breeding FOR human aggression is why you see pit bulls who are more aggressive towards humans than you would see back in the breeds earlier years. BYBs are destroying this breed.

How was your dog provoked to bite your ex? I'm assuming that your dog knew her, so why would he feel the need to bite her? Did she break into your house or something? lol.

An average dog has a PSI of 300. Anything over 150 would easily shred your skin. Any dog can seriously injure a person. A poodle can give you stitches for crying out loud. NO THANKS! I seen a study that was done on the PSI of a pit bull, rottweiler, and GSD. The rottweiler had the most, second was the GSD, and third was the pit bull. Which proves that the bigger the dog is, then the stronger its bite is. It has NOTHING to do with breed. A 150 pound presa canario is going to have a stronger bite than a 115 pound rottweiler.... etc.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

One bite from my old dog cain,they never got along,80 stitches,so anyone who thinks pits arent good dogs at guardian work or arent capable of hurting some one think again.
























this is after 80 somwhat stitches
this was the dog..
the one on the left/


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> One bite from my old dog cain,they never got along,80 stitches,so anyone who thinks pits arent good dogs at guardian work or arent capable of hurting some one think again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So why exactly was she bitten? I would love to hear the story on this one. Unless she was physically harming him, then I dont see it being ok at all for a dog to do that to someone they know. I hope he was put down, immediately.

If they never got along, then what is the dog doing around her? I would never allow that.

I tell you one thing. If my pit bull EVER hurt my family in any way. He would be a dead dog. My fiance would probably physically strangle him to death or take him out back and shoot him. My dog knows his position in the pack and it is WAY below us.

I know pit bulls can do damage. Look at how many people they have killed. I think its pretty obvious. And thats why idiots shouldn't get a hold of this breed, like they do.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

I have to agree with Rejin. I cant really come up with a back story that would make that okay... I think my girl could literally be attacking me and this would never happen. And if he did, again as Rejin said "dead dog". A stranger atacking me and a family member are two entirely different things.
I dont know if it is your intent but its almost as if you are bragging or reveling in the fact that your dog bit her. I dont think that its a good thing, at all.

Was your girl scared of him or reserved from him because of his size and look ? He could have been seeing her "fear" and basically putting himself over her in the heriarchy of the pack. Thats basically the road that we were going down here with my girl and my dogs, she has never been around big dogs and was bsically just letting me do everything withthem and avoiding them... I had to let her know that was not the way to be, and forced her to come train with me. Showing my support of her in commands and making sure she plays the aplha role and knows how and when to correct made things so much smoother around here, gave her confidence with the dogs and made sure that they understaood that everyone in the house is above them in the pack... not just me.


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

That Is Aweful-i Hope You Put That Dog Down. I Would Never Permit Any Of My Dogs Hurting Anyone I Know And Allow In My Home. That Is An Unpredictable Dog. Which Is Why The Media Is So Against Pit Bulls. I Do Not Know The Whole Story Of Why She Was Bit. But Just Saying The Dog And Her Never Got Along Is Not A Good Enough Reason For A Attack Of That Nature.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

****** said:


> What I said was most pit bulls do not make good GUARD dogs. I meant that as in guarding the house, property, and feeling a need to guard their human at all times, in an aggressive manner. THAT comes natural to breeds such as dobermans, GSDs,


guardian qualitys do not come natuaral to gsd's or dobbies,they have to be brough out of the dogs,very few breeds are born protective,dogs such as caucasin ovcharkas and similar flock guardians come to ming,not evena dog bred specificly for protecton such as a bandog will still need traing to bring out these tendencies.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

yes the dog was put down,and he was very protective to a fault,try a strangle that dog to death,youd be the one dead,Murray pierce[blue bull might know of him]called me and wanted the dog after the incident and yes cane was killed feb 2005....


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

BlueBull said:


> I dont know if it is your intent but its almost as if you are bragging or reveling in the fact that your dog bit her. I dont think that its a good thing, at all.
> .


Im not bragging or revealing in the fact that my pride and joy nearly killed my ex,so you can stop that [email protected]! RIGHT THERE,OR BETTER YET THINK WHAT you want,it was abad time and it is over now,long story also,was the dog provocked possably and its my faqult for keeping a dog with the mental potintial to do seriously violent harm to someone..


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

I guess my whole thing is you are using this incident as evidence of guarding ability... i don think it is. any unstable dog has the ability to snap and bite a person, the bigger the dog the more damage it will do, but ability to inflict damage isnt really a sign of guarding ability.

Side note- im glad that you are not proud of that. i would have seriously lost some respect for you. its hard to tell sometimes when you are online what a persons mindset is by reading text. I am glad i was wrong.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Oh no,that was the worst moment of my life,he was a good dog in a bad situation,around ceartin folks who didnt understand him,never even growled at me in the years i owned him....actualy mongo,the dog i have now is probably a better guardian,he's very proactive...


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> I have to agree with Rejin. I cant really come up with a back story that would make that okay... I think my girl could literally be attacking me and this would never happen. And if he did, again as Rejin said "dead dog". A stranger atacking me and a family member are two entirely different things.
> I dont know if it is your intent but its almost as if you are bragging or reveling in the fact that your dog bit her. I dont think that its a good thing, at all.
> 
> Was your girl scared of him or reserved from him because of his size and look ? He could have been seeing her "fear" and basically putting himself over her in the heriarchy of the pack. Thats basically the road that we were going down here with my girl and my dogs, she has never been around big dogs and was bsically just letting me do everything withthem and avoiding them... I had to let her know that was not the way to be, and forced her to come train with me. Showing my support of her in commands and making sure she plays the aplha role and knows how and when to correct made things so much smoother around here, gave her confidence with the dogs and made sure that they understaood that everyone in the house is above them in the pack... not just me.


That makes complete sense. Dogs can sense fear. I am sure there was warning signs and red flags. There always is and the owner should have been in tune with them. Something like that could have been prevented. Which makes me feel sorry for the dog as well, because in the end, its the owners fault. 

I ALWAYS read my dogs. Something that all owners should do.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> guardian qualitys do not come natuaral to gsd's or dobbies,they have to be brough out of the dogs,very few breeds are born protective,dogs such as caucasin ovcharkas and similar flock guardians come to ming,not evena dog bred specificly for protecton such as a bandog will still need traing to bring out these tendencies.


I strongly disagree with that and I am sure most rottweiler, GSD, and doberman enthusiasts will disagree with that statement also. Guardian breeds have a natural tendency to guard, just like a herding breed has a natural tendency to herd.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> yes the dog was put down,and he was very protective to a fault,try a strangle that dog to death,youd be the one dead,Murray pierce[blue bull might know of him]called me and wanted the dog after the incident and yes cane was killed feb 2005....


Well, my fiance is over 6'4 tall and over 300 pounds. I've seen him lift weights. I am sure it would be a struggle, but there is no doubt in my mind that he would do it to any dog who made the mistake in bitting someone. That is not the point at all though. I was trying to make a point that aggressive behavior towards loved ones is not to be tolerated. Its something very serious.

A dog bitting a loved one has NOTHING to do with being protective. A dog that attacks someone he knows... someone that is not a threat, is a dog who has an unstable temperament. A dog with a solid temperament knows the difference between friendly and non-friendly people.

You still have yet to tell the story. Since you say he was provoked makes me think that she either yelled at him, moved too quickly, or came at him in a bold manner. Those are tell tale signs that he was fearful of her and felt the need to fight or flight. He chose fight. Too much info missing to really tell though. hmmm. He may have had socialization issues.


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

****** said:


> I strongly disagree with that and I am sure most rottweiler, GSD, and doberman enthusiasts will disagree with that statement also. Guardian breeds have a natural tendency to guard, just like a herding breed has a natural tendency to herd.


AS A GERMAN SHEPHERD OWNER I DO DISAGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT. MY ADULT GERMAN SHEPHERD WAS NEVER TRAINED AS A GUARD DOG AND IS VERY WELL SOCIALIZED,BUT IS VERY ALERT AND PROTECTIVE WHEN THERE IS A NEED TO BE. SHE IS A CALM AND HAS A STABLE TEMPERMENT. ONE OF THE SMARTEST AND BEST DOGS I HAVE EVER OWNEDup: i mean to say I agree with ****** yet again:goodpost:


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## Ottis Driftwood (Mar 16, 2006)

cane76 said:


> Ok "******[i know what ****** spells backwards,trying to be funny?]Walk up to one of my dogs,especialy in my neighboor hood and see what happens,i guarentee it one my life.............Oak Park is filled with guard dogs of the pitbull type,like it or not,no rotties,s a few english mastiffs,mutts and american bulldogs,and any will end your day quick as fu#@....A few of my dogs would charge off the pourch if not properly secured,and i had no problem with that in a area full of shotgun weilding thugs and prostitutes and dealers,fu#@ them,they get what they deserve....


So very well said and amen on that:rofl:


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## Sampsons Dad (Jul 4, 2008)

If any either of my pit bulls were the least bit aggressive to family members that live in the house I would have PTS asap. That don't fly here. Human aggression is not tolerated in this house from my pit bulls. 
In my opinion every dog gets one mistake (not a bite--acting dominent to family members). But If I retrain and the dog is stil acting dominent...night night.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

****** said:


> Well, my fiance is over 6'4 tall and over 300 pounds. I've seen him lift weights. I am sure it would be a struggle, but there is no doubt in my mind that he would do it to any dog who made the mistake in bitting someone. That is not the point at all though. I was trying to make a point that aggressive behavior towards loved ones is not to be tolerated. Its something very serious.
> 
> A dog bitting a loved one has NOTHING to do with being protective. A dog that attacks someone he knows... someone that is not a threat, is a dog who has an unstable temperament. A dog with a solid temperament knows the difference between friendly and non-friendly people.
> 
> You still have yet to tell the story. Since you say he was provoked makes me think that she either yelled at him, moved too quickly, or came at him in a bold manner. Those are tell tale signs that he was fearful of her and felt the need to fight or flight. He chose fight. Too much info missing to really tell though. hmmm. He may have had socialization issues.


To be stgraight up,they didnt like each other and she had him pinned to the ground,if id yell at her to get of the dog,then she'd start yelling at me,saying"your yelling at me for the dog growling"so i said,cain,lets go for a walk' to avoid a confrontation between me and the woman and he struggled to ge up,and so did she and he ran over to me all excited like"lets go for a walk,then ran over to her and bit her on the head and refused to let go,and was put down after a two week quarenteen and still folks called me wanting thst dog....and thats that,cain was also a mastiff/amstaff cross and was put down as a bull mastiff cross....


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

MICHELEAMBER said:


> AS A GERMAN SHEPHERD OWNER I DO DISAGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT. MY ADULT GERMAN SHEPHERD WAS NEVER TRAINED AS A GUARD DOG AND IS VERY WELL SOCIALIZED,BUT IS VERY ALERT AND PROTECTIVE WHEN THERE IS A NEED TO BE. SHE IS A CALM AND HAS A STABLE TEMPERMENT. ONE OF THE SMARTEST AND BEST DOGS I HAVE EVER OWNEDup: i mean to say I agree with ****** yet again:goodpost:


I dont,beleieve what you want,but only a handful of dogs come out born to guard with no training,alert of course guard nope,sorry....


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

Sorry You Are Wrong About My German Shepherd. She Is An Import From Germany Not Of American Lines. She Is Protective And We Did Not Train Her To Be That Way. It Is In Her Bloodline!~!!!!!!


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

NO YOUR WRONG,ALL DOGS NEED PROPER TRAINING TO EXCELL AT THERE TASKS,DOGS LIUKE CAUCASIAN OVCKARKAS ARE BORN BITING RIGHT OUT OF THE WELPING BOX,GSD,S ARE NOT,AND THE NOTION that a DOBBIE IS A GREAT GUARD IS LAUGHABLE TO ME,just be cause news articals from the 70's said it,dosent make it so....


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

Well I Guess You Never Owned A Well Bred German Shepherd -so I Am Not Going To Reply To On This Subject Anymore. One Thing I Do Know Is My German Shepherd Would Never Bite And Give 80 Stiches To Someone She Knew And I Invited Into My Home-thats Were Good Breeding Comes To Play. She Was Not A Byb Dog.again Very Protective And Loyal.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

good for you...


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

ITS ALL GOOD


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

Temperament
A sound temperament is of the utmost importance in a good companion. *Temperament is inherited, and therefore is a direct result of the dog's breeding*.The character of the German Shepherd Dog is one of self-confidence and nobility. Although a mature German Shepherd will not wear his heart on his sleeve, he should be approachable and outgoing. Strangers may be regarded with some suspicion, but the dog should be neither overly sharp and aggressive nor cringe with fear.

A sound German Shepherd makes an excellent companion. An unsound one is a disaster waiting to happen.

Because of a desire to have a family protector, many GSD puppy buyers think they need a very dominant, aggressive dog -- an unwise choice for a family. *sound GSDs are naturally protective of their homes and families*.

Puppies will begin to show some awareness of "their" people and "their" space at about five or six months of age and will display a desire to warn of approaching strangers. An alert dog and a few warning barks is all the protection most families require.

For those who have a true need for more serious protection, a sound, balanced dog is still the best choice. Such a dog can be trained in formal personal protection by a competent instructor. An overly aggressive or unsound dog should not be trained in protection, for it will be a danger and cannot be trusted. Anyone planning to acquire a personal protection dog should choose the dog and the trainer carefully, for a poor dog or a poor trainers can court disaster
[:rofl: ]


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

watch this video and youll see a dog that is truely born protective,and dosent need training,youll learn alot and pephaps your whole perseption will be changed,education is a good thing,a german gsd is a great guard,but still needs training to bring these man stopping abilitys out,enjoy...
http://molosserdogs.com/myfiles/video/NGCO_0002.wmv


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

Temperament: Kaukasisches are self-determined and very intelligent. Territorial and protective, they are unafraid of threats. They are strong, confident, fearless and independent. They are able to distinguish real threats from unreal. They are bold, even-tempered and loyal to family. Calm around their own family, but very protective towards strangers. Trainable and territorial, The Caucasian Mountain Dog makes an excellent, reliable protection dog.
*With Children: for chidren dog is not suggested children. But, they can be good with quiet, well-behaved children who are also trained to understand that the Caucasian is a working companion, not a child's toy. 
With Pets: Must remain dominant over other pets and other dogs (particularly other males). Fights may arise, and the Caucasian Mountain Dog will likely have the upper hand if its owner does not have control. Not suggested to have other pets.

Watch-dog: Very High. The Caucasian Mountain Dog has a keen sense of hearing and is quick to alert to strange sounds. This means that the breed is often noisy and barks a lot, especially at night.*Guard-dog: Very High. The breed is said to have an uncanny ability to discriminate between true threat and benign interference. It will protect the yard from a wolf, a coyote, even a mountain lion, in addition to strange humans or the neighbor's dog.

Caucasian SEEMS LIKE A VERY GOOD PROTECTION DOG.BUT THE OWNER NEEDS EXPERINCE IN OWNING ONE. NOT FOR THE AVERAGE FAMILY. UNLIKE THE GERMAN SHEPHERD WHO IS VERY INTEELIGENT AND EASY TO TRAIN. SO WE BOTH HAVE GOOD POSTS AND SHOWED 2 EXCELLENT BREEDS. I DID ENJOY THE VIDEO-THANKS


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

your welcome,i was just tring to show you some dogs need no training to guard,and that a guardian and a watch dog are two diffrent things...
And of course a gsd is a great guard,it just needs proper training,if not there wouldnt be training acadamies for such dogs...
and yes nicholies owner was a straight up idiot,talk about a dog needing socialization,geez...


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## bkwil (Sep 7, 2007)

Cane your right about GSD rotties and Dobbies...The place where i go to train i've seen imports come in beautiful dogs but still need training maybe even more just because a dog barks when someone come's to the house doesn't me he will bite or know's how and where to bite and what will the dog do with someone not backing down from the barking with a man still walking in on him staring him in the eye's in a dominate way with a stick with no training the dog will go into a fight or flight but because most dogs grow up around humans all there life they don't want to fight humans now the imports do excel when trained properly...I seen a lady come to a bulldog show who thought the same thing as MICHELE i don't remember the line the dog came from but the decoy went in on the dog and the dog didn't know what to do so he asked her where do you train at she said i don't train his father is so & so it's in his blood to do it i felt bad because she really believed her dog could do bite work with no training :hammer: 

Now i have a question about pitbulls and protection
say if someone is coming to do harm to you in your home knows you have a pit brings a mean mut to bark and fight your dog just to distract him what will a pit do what is in his blood or protect you?


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

Good question... i truely believe that a pit will fight first.


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

I seen a lady come to a bulldog show who thought the same thing as MICHELE i don't remember the line the dog came from but the decoy went in on the dog and the dog didn't know what to do so he asked her where do you train at she said i don't train his father is so & so it's in his blood to do it i felt bad because she really believed her dog could do bite work with no training 
I GUESS I AM GOING TO HAVE TO SHOW YOU HOW SHE IS WITH GAURD WORK . ILLUSION (HER NAME) IS AMAZING. I WILL HAVE MY HUSBAND MAKE A VIDEO ON HER .THEN YOU CAN SEE WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. MIND YOU THE DOGS IS ONLY 7 MONTHS OLD:woof:


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## bkwil (Sep 7, 2007)

Becareful not to break the dogs spirt if the person doesn't know what their doing you can ruin a great dog...Now when you make the video put someone she doesn't know and willing to take a bite from her make sure he's a real trainer sounds like you may have a great dog with lots of potential with the right TRAINING


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

thank you. that was very nice of you to say that.


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

If someone goes to THAT much effort to break into my house.

They can have it. :roll:


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

cane76 said:


> watch this video and youll see a dog that is truely born protective,and dosent need training,youll learn alot and pephaps your whole perseption will be changed,education is a good thing,a german gsd is a great guard,but still needs training to bring these man stopping abilitys out,enjoy...
> http://molosserdogs.com/myfiles/video/NGCO_0002.wmv


Lord that man fell right on his ARSE!!!! Yah, I would say that dog is not for everyone. Sucker is HUGE!!! I would hate to just have to feed it..lol!!! They are an exception to the rule!
Most GSD'S import or not along with Rotties, Dobies, Malionis, even though they are bred to be guard dogs have to have training to bring those instincts out. No one is knocking this... I certainly would not walk into someone's yard with these kinds of dogs.

I know alot of people talking about a pit bull and training it to release when told, but I have seen police GSD'S that have had to be told to release several times and not do it. My mom got a police GSD from Hespsaba Police Department to go through training again b/c when it was told to release it wouldn't and when the officer went to go get him off the assaliant the dog turned and bit him. The dog ended up having to be retired from police work due to aggression problems. I have never been more scared of any dog in my life like I was scared of B.J.!


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> NO YOUR WRONG,ALL DOGS NEED PROPER TRAINING TO EXCELL AT THERE TASKS,DOGS LIUKE CAUCASIAN OVCKARKAS ARE BORN BITING RIGHT OUT OF THE WELPING BOX,GSD,S ARE NOT,AND THE NOTION that a DOBBIE IS A GREAT GUARD IS LAUGHABLE TO ME,just be cause news articals from the 70's said it,dosent make it so....


No need to get all offended, lol.

Have you owned a properly bred guardian breed? I am guessing not. Products of bybs dont count, because they can be quite out of standard including temperamentally. A dogs genes arent to be taken lightly. Yes, certain breeds are BORN with certain characteristics. A lot of pit bulls are BORN with a tendency to become DA, because thats what they were bred for. Guardian breeds were bred to guard. Training will perfect its guardian instincts, but the instincts are always there.

I am a member off another dog forum and there is a rottweiler breeder on there. Tell her that her dogs aren't born with a natural tendency to guard... she will laugh right in your face. Go meet her dogs and you'll change your mind.

Do some research and you'll be surprised.


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

once again very well said ******!!!!!!!:clap:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

have i owned a guard breed,sure have,one that would out do a rottie for sure.
step to this dog and see were youd end up.








*Also bring your friend from another site and have her laugh in my face,if she thinks a german rottwieler is gonna be aggresive and bite right out of the whelping bow with in three weeks,your wrong and so is she,did you whatch the video,the co is 2 notches higher than a very aggresive german rottie,with no training,and while your at it,change your user name,its straight up offensive*


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## paris77 (Jul 1, 2008)

Micheleamber. You Have Beautiful German Shepherds. I Always Wanted One. I Would Hate To Break Into Your House Lol.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> have i owned a guard breed,sure have,one that would out do a rottie for sure.
> step to this dog and see were youd end up.
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, I tried to play nice, but now I'm done. Just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. K?

First, aggression does NOT equal good guardian abilities. It could mean the dog is very unstable in some cases, just like your pit bull who savagely tore into your ex-girlfriends face, and then you come and brag about it.

The dog above looks like a cross of some sort. What is it?? And the most important question... WAS HE PROPERLY BRED? Pit bull doesn't count, because they are NOT a guardian breed!!! If he is a mastiff, then of course he is going to have guardian instincts, because its a guardian breed. THATS MY POINT. LOL.

You seem like a guy with ego problems, seriously. With this "my dog is more badass than any rottie, bla bla bla." I don't see your point or your proof for that matter. What do you mean by "do out"? Are you trying to say that rotties are poor guardians? Get real, please. Why do so many police forces use them then?

You call me offensive when you have disrespected other breeds over and over again. You can talk shit about other breeds, but nobody can say anything about the breeds you have owned. Dont dish it out if you cant take it. I'm not hating on any breed, but you clearly are.

No dog is going to be aggressive at 3 weeks unless they have mental issues, in they case, they should be culled. A dog starts guarding when they start maturing.

My user name is my DOGS NAME. I'm not changing my dogs name for you. Quit reading it backwards. Do you know how to read correctly? Maybe not. Read it how its supposed to be read, its not that hard, unless you're a little slow...


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> have i owned a guard breed,sure have,one that would out do a rottie for sure.
> step to this dog and see were youd end up.
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, I tried to play nice, but now I'm done. Just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. K?

First, aggression does NOT equal good guardian abilities. It could mean the dog is very unstable in some cases, just like your pit bull who savagely tore into your ex-girlfriends face, and then you come and brag about it.

The dog above looks like a cross of some sort. What is it?? And the most important question... WAS HE PROPERLY BRED? Pit bull doesn't count, because they are NOT a guardian breed!!! If he is a mastiff, then of course he is going to have guardian instincts, because its a guardian breed. THATS MY POINT. LOL.

You seem like a guy with ego problems, seriously. With this "my dog is more badass than any rottie, bla bla bla." I don't see your point or your proof for that matter. What do you mean by "do out"? Are you trying to say that rotties are poor guardians? Get real, please. Why do so many police forces use them then?

You call me offensive when you have disrespected other breeds over and over again. You can talk shit about other breeds, but nobody can say anything about the breeds you have owned. Dont dish it out if you cant take it. I'm not hating on any breed, but you clearly are.

No dog is going to be aggressive at 3 weeks unless they have mental issues, in they case, they should be culled. A dog starts guarding when they start maturing.

My user name is my DOGS NAME. I'm not changing my dogs name for you. Quit reading it backwards. Do you know how to read correctly? Maybe not. Read it how its supposed to be read, its not that hard, unless you're a little slow...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

****** said:


> First, aggression does NOT equal good guardian abilities. It could mean the dog is very unstable in some cases, just like your pit bull who savagely tore into your ex-girlfriends face, and then you come and brag about it....


Never bragged about,just stated that it happened,please show me were i bragged about it?a dog that was provoked isnt really in the wrong either,jmo,and for your info,the dog in the photo,is that very dog..... 


****** said:


> The dog above looks like a cross of some sort. What is it?? And the most important question... WAS HE PROPERLY BRED? Pit bull doesn't count, because they are NOT a guardian breed!!! If he is a mastiff, then of course he is going to have guardian instincts, because its a guardian breed. THATS MY POINT. LOL.
> 
> 
> ****** said:
> ...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

****** said:


> First, aggression does NOT equal good guardian abilities. It could mean the dog is very unstable in some cases, just like your pit bull who savagely tore into your ex-girlfriends face, and then you come and brag about it....


Never bragged about,just stated that it happened,please show me were i bragged about it?a dog that was provoked isnt really in the wrong either,jmo,and for your info,the dog in the photo,is that very dog..... 


****** said:


> The dog above looks like a cross of some sort. What is it?? And the most important question... WAS HE PROPERLY BRED? Pit bull doesn't count, because they are NOT a guardian breed!!! If he is a mastiff, then of course he is going to have guardian instincts, because its a guardian breed. THATS MY POINT. LOL.
> 
> 
> ****** said:
> ...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

****** said:


> First, aggression does NOT equal good guardian abilities. It could mean the dog is very unstable in some cases, just like your pit bull who savagely tore into your ex-girlfriends face, and then you come and brag about it....


Never bragged about,just stated that it happened,please show me were i bragged about it?a dog that was provoked isnt really in the wrong either,jmo,and for your info,the dog in the photo,is that very dog..... 


****** said:


> The dog above looks like a cross of some sort. What is it?? And the most important question... WAS HE PROPERLY BRED? Pit bull doesn't count, because they are NOT a guardian breed!!! If he is a mastiff, then of course he is going to have guardian instincts, because its a guardian breed. THATS MY POINT. LOL.
> 
> 
> ****** said:
> ...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

****** said:


> First, aggression does NOT equal good guardian abilities. It could mean the dog is very unstable in some cases, just like your pit bull who savagely tore into your ex-girlfriends face, and then you come and brag about it....


Never bragged about,just stated that it happened,please show me were i bragged about it?a dog that was provoked isnt really in the wrong either,jmo,and for your info,the dog in the photo,is that very dog..... 


****** said:


> The dog above looks like a cross of some sort. What is it?? And the most important question... WAS HE PROPERLY BRED? Pit bull doesn't count, because they are NOT a guardian breed!!! If he is a mastiff, then of course he is going to have guardian instincts, because its a guardian breed. THATS MY POINT. LOL.


lol?whats so funny /really.
the idea that a apbt cant or wont guard is just plain stupid,sorry,it just is,im not saying your stupid,but the idea is ignorant,a airedale terrier can make a fine guard although they were never bred for it,as well as many others.The dog above was a second generation bandog.was he properly bred,i'd say no,just bred for looks,size and aggresion.My question to you,since you present yourself as such a knowledgable dog person is this,what type of mastiff looks like that,really,none ive ever encountered....


****** said:


> You seem like a guy with ego problems, seriously. With this "my dog is more badass than any rottie, bla bla bla." I don't see your point or your proof for that matter. What do you mean by "do out"? Are you trying to say that rotties are poor guardians? Get real, please. Why do so many police forces use them then?....


I never said rotties are poor guardians,find it in one of my post,just one,i said that there are dogs much higher in defense drive,dogs born biting right out of the welping box,or better yet a few day after birth,did you watch the movie?
i presented it for yours and others educational purposes,if your just gonna ignore it and pontificate from our sope box so be it,stay ignorant,it aint hurting me..http://molosserdogs.com/myfiles/video/NGCO_0002.wmv


****** said:


> You call me offensive when you have disrespected other breeds over and over again. You can talk shit about other breeds, but nobody can say anything about the breeds you have owned. Dont dish it out if you cant take it. I'm not hating on any breed, but you clearly are....


Im not hating,im stating that many flock guardian breeds[lgd's] are just to much,even for the german rottie,bandog,malanoi,or gsd owner,police and military included,if you cant desifer that from these posts its your problem ma'ma,not mine,i enjoy malinois and think they are two much for the average enthusiest,myself included,i love bandog's and they are my passion,especialy due to the LACK of social dominance bred into a proper onenot a fan of gsd's,to much hair and health issues,and rottie's have far to much rank drive for me,i dont want a dog that might challenge its family or even owner due to the nature of its breeding or what ive heard refered to as the german temperment. 


****** said:


> No dog is going to be aggressive at 3 weeks unless they have mental issues, in they case, they should be culled. A dog starts guarding when they start maturing.....


wrong,watch the friggen short movie,or dont speak on issue you know little to nothing about.. 


****** said:


> My user name is my DOGS NAME. I'm not changing my dogs name for you. Quit reading it backwards. Do you know how to read correctly? Maybe not. Read it how its supposed to be read, its not that hard, unless you're a little slow...


ya,im the one thats slow,and your possably a rasist,just not a ver tactful one,lol


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

K how about this thread get locked since its gotten way off topic and there is enough hate in the world that I don't need to read it here.


Thanks


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

BedlamBully said:


> K how about this thread get locked since its gotten way off topic and there is enough hate in the world that I don't need to read it here.
> 
> Thanks


I second this.

I don't need to argue with someone who is so hateful. I've already said what I need to say. I have nothing more to add. I tried to be nice, but now I'm done. He will believe what he wants and thats perfectly fine.

Keep bashing breeds by calling them garbage...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

*wrong,both rotties,gsd's and malioi's are great dogs if you prefer a dog with a drive for rank i.e challenge owner or handler,lgd breeds are far more aggresive also but less trainable,or not as handler responsive,of course ya didnt watch the movie,so you learned nothing,yur deal,not mine,
have a great day sir...........
*another little vid,just as good as any gs,rottie or malinoi..


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> *wrong,both rotties,gsd's and malioi's are great dogs if you prefer a dog with a drive for rank i.e challenge owner or handler,lgd breeds are far more aggresive also but less trainable,or not as handler responsive,of course ya didnt watch the movie,so you learned nothing,yur deal,not mine,
> have a great day sir...........
> *another little vid,just as good as any gs,rottie or malinoi..


Huh? What are you talking about? I'm so confused.

Large breeds are more aggressive than smaller breeds? Sorry, but I've met more aggressive chihuahuas than any breed. LOL.

You are missing my point completely. I am not talking about dogs who have training. I am talking about dogs that have natural guarding instincts that they are born with, WITHOUT any damn training.

Yes, a pit bull properly trained in bite work is as good as any dog. That is true. The one thing you've said that I actually agree with.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> Never bragged about,just stated that it happened,please show me were i bragged about it?a dog that was provoked isnt really in the wrong either,jmo,and for your info,the dog in the photo,is that very dog.....
> 
> 
> ****** said:
> ...


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## sw_df27 (Feb 16, 2007)

> Hes not pure bred pit bull


sorry but just had to say you said it yourself and others would agree but "pit bull" isn't a actual breed anyway but more of a umbrella for several breeds


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## MICHELEAMBER (May 1, 2008)

When it comes to guard dogs, there are plenty of choices. A lot of it depends on what you want, and for people with families, a "Watch Dog" will suit their needs. Due to their genetic traits which focus on providing a level of aggression, I would be wary of a lot of the canines bred for guard duties. These dogs are Alphas in every sense of the word, and they will not back down, even if it means death for them. That is why if I wanted a guard dog with small children in the house, I would pick American Pit Bull Terrier.

If you mention "American Pit Bull Terrier" in a conversation, you are likely to encounter a lot of negative reactions. People are misinformed about this breed, and think of extreme cases where these wonderful dogs were beaten and trained to attack people. Generally the only constant aggression shown by the APBT is towards dogs, and they are wonderful with children. They tolerate having their tails being pulled on, and for toddlers to crawl all over them. (Provided they are under the watch of adult supervision, just like any other dog) These dogs will welcome family members and friends into your house, but they will defend the family against any sort of criminal trespass. Their stature and physical characteristics are enough to intimidate anyone thinking about violating your residence, and all you have to do is to look in their eyes, and you will understand that they will die for you if necessary. They are also one of the smartest dogs around.
WE ALL LOVE DOGS ON THIS FORUM AND WERE GETTING WAY OFF THE TOPIC.


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## BedlamBully (Jun 6, 2008)

Ya know you could also stop it by not answering.

Enough people, Geez.


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

BedlamBully said:


> Ya know you could also stop it by not answering.
> 
> Enough people, Geez.


I second that....it is getting way out of hand.

The only animals I know of in this world that comes out of the womb with aggression, enough to even kill it's siblings are:
1. Tasmanian Devils
2. Hyenas

And both are wild animals.
Just thought I 'd put a fun fact in there.....lol! I watch way to much National Geographic and Animal Planet.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

I have heard of a lot of gamebred litters that have to be seperated pretty early on as they will fight and maul each other to death not long after thier eyes open. The drive to dominate and fight is that ingrained from birth in them. 

There are so many kinds of aggression and most of it is very situational. 
I have a dog that is dog aggressive, but dogs can have different triggers, maybe its only dogs unknown to them, or dogs bigger than them, or males, or females, or black dogs ( i actually met a dog that was only aggressive to black dogs because it was attacked by a lab as a puppy), or only when its on its home territory or only on lead, etc. 
Another big thing is that a lot of behaviors are incorrectly labled as aggression... Fear and lack of confidence being the biggest ones. I strongly believe that ALL breeds of dog will produce dogs of all levels of drive and temperment. Breed will have a minimal impact on the types of drive that will be present but not neccesarily the level of drive that will be displayed.

Training, soclialization, pedigree, and experience are going to be the biggest factors in what a dog becomes. I have seen awesome prospects be torn down to wimpering messes in the hands of an inexperienced owner. i have seen less than stellar dogs turn out awesome because they were properly trained and had confidence building done with them.


Dont focus so much on the breeds of dog and look more at the individual animal. I promise you will find amazing specimens and washouts in every breed if you look at them long enough. on average some breeds perform some tasks better than others but that in no way makes them superior at that task.


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## MetalGirl30 (Apr 15, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> I have heard of a lot of gamebred litters that have to be seperated pretty early on as they will fight and maul each other to death not long after thier eyes open. The drive to dominate and fight is that ingrained from birth in them.
> 
> There are so many kinds of aggression and most of it is very situational.
> I have a dog that is dog aggressive, but dogs can have different triggers, maybe its only dogs unknown to them, or dogs bigger than them, or males, or females, or black dogs ( i actually met a dog that was only aggressive to black dogs because it was attacked by a lab as a puppy), or only when its on its home territory or only on lead, etc.
> ...


:goodpost:


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

****** said:


> You are missing my point completely. I am not talking about dogs who have training. I am talking about dogs that have natural guarding instincts that they are born with, WITHOUT any damn training.
> .


my last post,a lgd has more natural agesion than any german guardian,21 days into its life its fighting,right in the whelping box......


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

sw_df27 said:


> sorry but just had to say you said it yourself and others would agree but "pit bull" isn't a actual breed anyway but more of a umbrella for several breeds


In this case, I am using "pit bull" for APBT. I am referring to a specific breed here. When I say pit bulls aren't bred for guardian work, I am talking about the APBT. APBTs do not make good guard dogs in general. They were bred to be DA not HA. If they are mixed with mastiff, then they are more likely to have guardian instincts because the mastiff is a guardian breed/breeds.

For future reference I'll start referring to the breed as APBT. Every person I know refers to the breed as "pit bull". In mastiff mixes they refer to them as mastiff mixes, not "pit bulls". In the case of BSL, they call any dog who has the slightest resemblance to the APBT a pit bull. Stupid.

I guess it all depends on what your used to certain breeds being called.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

****** said:


> In this case, I am using "pit bull" for APBT. I am referring to a specific breed here. When I say pit bulls aren't bred for guardian work, I am talking about the APBT. APBTs do not make good guard dogs in general. They were bred to be DA not HA. If they are mixed with mastiff, then they are more likely to have guardian instincts because the mastiff is a guardian breed/breeds.
> 
> For future reference I'll start referring to the breed as APBT. Every person I know refers to the breed as "pit bull". In mastiff mixes they refer to them as mastiff mixes, not "pit bulls". In the case of BSL, they call any dog who has the slightest resemblance to the APBT a pit bull. Stupid.
> 
> I guess it all depends on what your used to certain breeds being called.


Officially mastiff mixes be it will bulldog or terrier should be known as Bandogs.

but because so often the papers are hung and the mixes are hidden (even though in most cases its obvious) people think they are pit bulls becuase they get a pedigree that says they are.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

MetalGirl30 said:


> I second that....it is getting way out of hand.
> 
> The only animals I know of in this world that comes out of the womb with aggression, enough to even kill it's siblings are:
> 1. Tasmanian Devils
> ...


Again, blind aggression does NOT equal guarding instincts. I wish people would stop confusing the two.

A dog who is born aggressive towards people should be killed, because they aren't right in the head and have an unstable temperament. A dogs guardian instincts surface AFTER the dog hits puberty.

To the rest. Whats wrong with having a good debate? As long as everyone can refrain from calling names. It did get out of hand in the last page, but maybe we can get it back on track.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

****** said:


> A dogs guardian instincts surface AFTER the dog hits puberty.


This i cant agree with, though most of your post is very true.

Caspian (my Fila) at just 10 weeks old would growl at strangers and stand his ground to them barking with his tail held high. At the time it was cute and people would laugh and point.. now they nearly wet themselves, lol.

Certain breeds will have a proper guarding instinct well before puberty hits.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> I have heard of a lot of gamebred litters that have to be seperated pretty early on as they will fight and maul each other to death not long after thier eyes open. The drive to dominate and fight is that ingrained from birth in them.
> 
> There are so many kinds of aggression and most of it is very situational.
> I have a dog that is dog aggressive, but dogs can have different triggers, maybe its only dogs unknown to them, or dogs bigger than them, or males, or females, or black dogs ( i actually met a dog that was only aggressive to black dogs because it was attacked by a lab as a puppy), or only when its on its home territory or only on lead, etc.
> ...


I agree with this. I will say that when you choose a dog for a certain task, its good to choose a breed that will be best at that task. For example, you're not going to choose a collie for a guard dog. That wouldn't be the best choice.

If you wanted a breed good with kids, my first choice would be APBT.

With aggression there is a huge difference between human aggression and dog aggression. Guardian breeds have levels of human aggression in order to do what they were bred for. Its also important for them to know when and when not to bite. To discern the difference from non-friendly and friendly people. Blind aggression is not to be tolerated in any breed.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> This i cant agree with, though most of your post is very true.
> 
> Caspian (my Fila) at just 10 weeks old would growl at strangers and stand his ground to them barking with his tail held high. At the time it was cute and people would laugh and point.. now they nearly wet themselves, lol.
> 
> Certain breeds will have a proper guarding instinct well before puberty hits.


A dog born aggressive towards humans is a huge red flag that they have an unstable temperament and should be killed. I do see some puppies who are aggressive towards people at a young age. I think it has to do with fear and being untrusting of people from the git go. It could also mean a lack of socialization. I was trying to make a point that a dog should NOT be aggressive right out of the womb. That is not good at all and not typical. An average dogs guardian instincts kick in FULL SWING at puberty. At that point, they WILL take down a person. Its not just all show. Sometimes even well after puberty.

My own dog was aggressive towards other dogs as a little pup, because he was fearful of them.

I bet your fila is great dog and very protective. And why haven't you posted any pics of him?? Filas are so cute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

****** said:


> I agree with this. I will say that when you choose a dog for a certain task, its good to choose a breed that will be best at that task. For example, you're not going to choose a collie for a guard dog. That wouldn't be the best choice.
> 
> If you wanted a breed good with kids, my first choice would be APBT.
> 
> With aggression there is a huge difference between human aggression and dog aggression. Guardian breeds have levels of human aggression in order to do what they were bred for. Its also important for them to know when and when not to bite. To discern the difference from non-friendly and friendly people. Blind aggression is not to be tolerated in any breed.


True to a point, but this is dependant on the job that the dog faces. In a situation where the dog is working without a handler (i.e. Warehouse protection or that classic 'junk yard' dog position) blind aggression probably is going to be better tolerated and in some cases sought after. Regardless as to how a dog in that position is approached they are supposed to react to anyone that isnt the handler. Blind aggression does have its places its just that 99% of the time it doesnt.


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

cane76 said:


> my last post,a lgd has more natural agesion than any german guardian,21 days into its life its fighting,right in the whelping box......


And again, there is a difference between human and dog aggression. APBTs are naturally dog aggressive. They shouldn't be human aggressive. They were bred to be human friendly and tolerant. Thats why they love people so much.

Out of all of the dogs I have owned, my APBT loved people more than any dog could match!!!


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> True to a point, but this is dependant on the job that the dog faces. In a situation where the dog is working without a handler (i.e. Warehouse protection or that classic 'junk yard' dog position) blind aggression probably is going to be better tolerated and in some cases sought after. Regardless as to how a dog in that position is approached they are supposed to react to anyone that isnt the handler. Blind aggression does have its places its just that 99% of the time it doesnt.


For liability reasons, I would want a dog to know when and when not to use deadly force. Otherwise you could get yourself in a lot of trouble. Guardian abilities should go deeper than attacking any human that crosses its path. They need to analyze the situation. But I suppose some people like a dog to be that way for some reason.


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## BlueBull (Dec 6, 2006)

****** said:


> A dog born aggressive towards humans is a huge red flag that they have an unstable temperament and should be killed. I do see some puppies who are aggressive towards people at a young age. I think it has to do with fear and being untrusting of people from the git go. It could also mean a lack of socialization. I was trying to make a point that a dog should NOT be aggressive right out of the womb. That is not good at all and not typical. An average dogs guardian instincts kick in FULL SWING at puberty. At that point, they WILL take down a person. Its not just all show. Sometimes even well after puberty.
> 
> My own dog was aggressive towards other dogs as a little pup, because he was fearful of them.
> 
> I bet your fila is great dog and very protective. And why haven't you posted any pics of him?? Filas are so cute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


For a lot of the breeds out there i would agree with you but when bred right this is how a true working bred guarding breed should be. Neos, Corsos, Presas, Filas, LGDs, and other such guarding breeds are not like an APBT. make sure you are not taking the APBT personality and temperment and using it to measure other breeds of dog. there are some pretty stark contrasts out there and it doesnt make them incorrect or bad temperments. Now as for an APBT if they are displaying these traits you are right they should be socialized or possibly put down. Thats not the case in a guarding breed... these are actually traits that we look for in selecting the best prospects or the "picks of the litter". you want a dog that is strongly driven and vocal and confident. It took me most of the night to be able to pet Caspian the night i got him off the plane. he just wanted nothing to do with me, and I loved it!

It was so hard for people to understand a dog that did not want to be petted by them. They would try to pet Caspian and he would walk away and want nothing to do with them... but would flop int he floor and love all over me and my kids. as soon as they came over to pet him he would smell their hand and get up and walk away. This is how the breed is... its thier standard. Now in the APBT i would be worried about a puppy that didnt want to get loved on by people especially if they are sitting in the floor with them. didnt matter who you were you sit in the floor your getting jumped on and licked like crazy where it applies to the pits, but the fila will look at you and not even wag his tail. Entirely differnt mentality where it pertains to people, a fila loves only its family.... period. If you have people that come over VERY regularly they can be accepted by the dog as well, but a stranger will not be accepted. If you have a fila in your house its best to keep your visitors and your dogs completely seperated. I put two doors between my guests and mine.

A few pics of Kaz... i love posting him!
as a puppy 10 weeks old or so-








Lounging with Diesel








The same two dogs now... Caz is only about 6 months in this one








and Kaz at about 8 months old









The "yard protection" LOL Kora and Kaz-


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## Reggin (Mar 7, 2008)

BlueBull said:


> For a lot of the breeds out there i would agree with you but when bred right this is how a true working bred guarding breed should be. Neos, Corsos, Presas, Filas, LGDs, and other such guarding breeds are not like an APBT. make sure you are not taking the APBT personality and temperment and using it to measure other breeds of dog. there are some pretty stark contrasts out there and it doesnt make them incorrect or bad temperments. Now as for an APBT if they are displaying these traits you are right they should be socialized or possibly put down. Thats not the case in a guarding breed... these are actually traits that we look for in selecting the best prospects or the "picks of the litter". you want a dog that is strongly driven and vocal and confident. It took me most of the night to be able to pet Caspian the night i got him off the plane. he just wanted nothing to do with me, and I loved it!
> 
> It was so hard for people to understand a dog that did not want to be petted by them. They would try to pet Caspian and he would walk away and want nothing to do with them... but would flop int he floor and love all over me and my kids. as soon as they came over to pet him he would smell their hand and get up and walk away. This is how the breed is... its thier standard. Now in the APBT i would be worried about a puppy that didnt want to get loved on by people especially if they are sitting in the floor with them. didnt matter who you were you sit in the floor your getting jumped on and licked like crazy where it applies to the pits, but the fila will look at you and not even wag his tail. Entirely differnt mentality where it pertains to people, a fila loves only its family.... period. If you have people that come over VERY regularly they can be accepted by the dog as well, but a stranger will not be accepted. If you have a fila in your house its best to keep your visitors and your dogs completely seperated. I put two doors between my guests and mine.
> 
> ...


I am more familiar with rottweilers, dobermans, and german shepherd dogs. Although presa canarios have always captured my attention.

OMG, those pics are great!!! Wow, your fila was nearly as big as diesel at 6 months. That just blows my mind. Holy cow. You have great looking dogs.


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