# Questions for breeders...



## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

I have a few questions as far as breeding goes. Most of you know how I feel about bybing, and know I don't ever plan on breeding, but I have a few questions concerning the responsible way to breed.


1. What would you consider your goals, or your kennels goals? 

2. What are the qualifying factors you look for in your bitches and studs?

3. How many times can a bitch be bred before retiring, and what age is ok to do so?

4. How many times can a stud be used for breeding, and what age is it acceptable?

5. I see many of you work your dogs. In your mind, is it ok to breed after your dogs have mastered one sport, or do you think the stock should be titled in several venues??

6. How do breeders decide what is a fair price for a dog, a pick, or a pet, etc. 

7. How many dogs can you have on your yard for breeding to preserve the breed, and not have it be a farm or mill?

8. What obstacles do you see during the breeding process and how are they overcome?

9. Last, but not least, what got you into breeding?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Its funny that you should start a thread like this. I was going to start a thread asking the board breeders how they felt their program was going, what their accomplishments have been, and what they were hoping to improve upon.

Can I answer even though I'm not a breeder? I have some good ideas.


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## meganc66 (Mar 6, 2009)

i would say yes, lindsay, go for it!


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

StaffyDaddy said:


> I have a few questions as far as breeding goes. Most of you know how I feel about bybing, and know I don't ever plan on breeding, but I have a few questions concerning the responsible way to breed


I'll answer even though, I have only been part to two liters. 
One I was the breeder and one I own the stud dog for. 
I was very hands on in both processes.



> 1. What would you consider your goals, or your kennels goals?


To breed dogs that exemplify what the standard calls for in all aspects. while trying to improve upon my own dogs qualities.Thus, to produce the total package dog. 
EX:
temperament
structure
health 
working drive 
athleticism



> 2. What are the qualifying factors you look for in your bitches and studs?


LOL refer to my answers for #1 
I guess you can say I'm in Pursuit O' Perfect wrapped up into an APBT.  
There is no "perfect" dog; however, some are much closer than others...

When picking breeding pairs other things that are looked at are
- how the dogs compare and contrast to each other
- the bloodlines
- health tests 
- how a dog has produced in the past if it was bred
- titles are a plus



> 3. How many times can a bitch be bred before retiring, and what age is ok to do so?


 First of all the dog should be mentally and physically mature so a minimum of 2 yrs old. 
Depending on the dog and how she produces and handles the pregnancies I'd say 1-3 times.



> 4. How many times can a stud be used for breeding, and what age is it acceptable?


They should be a minimum of 2 years old just like with female.
Factors would play in such as how the dog produces, the amount of quality/ qualified owner's available for pups. I feel the stud dog owner should take things just as seriously as the breeder and not just stud off their male without being involved fully in the breeding. That being said I don't think people should pump out thousands of pups with their males just because they can. First off there are not enough quality owners out there for that, and some of those good owners are looking for pet quality dogs which often can easily be found in rescues. There are way too many great shelter dogs who are in need of homes IMO.



> 5. I see many of you work your dogs. In your mind, is it ok to breed after your dogs have mastered one sport, or do you think the stock should be titled in several venues??


Here is how I look at it. Titles in any area are a plus, but not the end all be all. Knowing your dog and their capabilities is more important. I used to be big on saying only dogs that were titled should be bred, but over the years have changed priorities. I say this because I have witnessed some dogs with multi-titles that literally look like they hate and are being forced to work. A title like that then means squat. That is not a working dog nor one with proper drive no matter what the piece of paper may say. That is a dog with a persistent trainer/handler. See my point.



> 6. How do breeders decide what is a fair price for a dog, a pick, or a pet, etc.


 Some dogs are placed with little to no fee depending on the agreement/contract and the type of home. Breeder's should eval the dogs and make decisions from there. Also, sometimes things like amount of, and time and money put into the dog and the breeding such as, having paid a higher, stud fee, doing a and AI or having to have a c-sec etc.



> 7. How many dogs can you have on your yard for breeding to preserve the breed, and not have it be a farm or mill?


 I don't really think you can put a number on it. It would depend on how much time you have to care, socialize and train your dogs. If you have a yard full of dogs you don't even have time to play with and have tons of litters at once I just think that is sad. I think it is very important to be very very very hands on with training and socialization from birth with any pups you plan to bring into the world.



> 8. What obstacles do you see during the breeding process and how are they overcome?


 One of the biggest obstacle is finding the right match ups when doing a breeding and if you go outside of your own stock/yard finding someone with the same goals and ethics to deal with when planning a litter. It takes a lot of time and research to do it right IMO. Even with taking your time there can be complications. Another obstacle is that you are never in full control of a breeding nature is, and you can only do your very best to try and help things along. matching the pup to the right owners is also difficult at times. Though having a waiting list before a breeding even takes place is extremely helpful.

Of course, BSL is always a HUGE factor in everything surrounding this breed including breedings. 
Some Solutions To That Are:
- Constant education of the general public
- Responsible ownership
- Presenting you and your dogs positively when out in public



> 9. Last, but not least, what got you into breeding?


My love for the breed got me into breeding.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> Can I answer even though I'm not a breeder? I have some good ideas.


Of course!!!!!!


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Man that is a lot of questions for a guy thats ADD!!!!!!:hammer:

Lets see if I can get through this without rambling off course.



> 1. What would you consider your goals, or your kennels goals?


We are dedicated to preserving the true APBT. We strive to produce quality working dogs with standard confirmation, unrelenting drive, and exceptional temperaments.



> 2. What are the qualifying factors you look for in your bitches and studs?


Obviously they need to be conformationally correct and have a desire to work. True determination and a love for the job.



> 3. How many times can a bitch be bred before retiring, and what age is ok to do so?


This is very controversial. We don't consider breeding until at least two years of age. We will not breed a bitch past 9 years of age although I have seen it up into a dogs teens. If you breed one heat and rest the next you could get a litter every year and half. So about 4-5 if only breeding until 9 years of age. But thats breeding every other heat!!!! We wont be doing that.



> 4. How many times can a stud be used for breeding, and what age is it acceptable?


Again a stud can be bred as long as his sperm count is good. Some longer than others. 2 is the age limit and I like titles before I breed them. We have never studded a dog out.



> 5. I see many of you work your dogs. In your mind, is it ok to breed after your dogs have mastered one sport, or do you think the stock should be titled in several venues??


I guess I would have to say yess. I mean we are a working kennel. We focus on weight pull. Once my dogs achieve the desired titles then we breed them. However we try to breed dogs that anyone can use in any sport they chose. We don't breed "weight pull" dogs. We try to breed ATHLETES, a dog that can perform in whatever discipline.



> 6. How do breeders decide what is a fair price for a dog, a pick, or a pet, etc.


I pick a fee that I can resonably expect someone to pay. I would not charge more than I would be willing to pay for that dog.



> 7. How many dogs can you have on your yard for breeding to preserve the breed, and not have it be a farm or mill?


You can have as many as you want. As long as you are not breeding its not a mill. I can see myself having in the future 15+dogs on my yard. Why? Well once I mulit title the dog it is retired. So far I can do this on my dogs in 4 years or under. That dog is going to live for a long long time after that. A dog that has given me all that work will retire with me and stay until it dies. Therefore I will end up with several retired dogs on my yard. Im not going to be breeding to breed. I will only breed when I need new dogs to work. All the money we make on breedings goes right back into OFK. We have our own account for the kennel. Feed, shows, runs, medical ect.



> 8. What obstacles do you see during the breeding process and how are they overcome?


So far we have been fortunate and not had to many obsticles. The hardest part is trying to find suitable matches. Who would work best with whom and why!



> 9. Last, but not least, what got you into breeding?


When we started OFK we never started off to breed. We started with 3 dogs to work and show their accomplishments. I don't consider ourselves as breeders. Now we will breed to add dogs to our yard. Next year our dogs will be pretty much retired. 2010 will be their last year of real competition if things go the way we think they will. Rebel and Switch will be NKC GrCH, ADBA Ace, UKC GRCH. No need to keep going, time for something new to start working and proving themselves. My wife is going to work Muffin next year. In December we may breed Switch to Miracle and I plan on keeping two dogs out of that litter. That will give me two new dogs to work in 2011. That is our goals for right now.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

*GREAT POSTS EVERYONE!! and yes, lindsey go for it *


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

I've not read the thread and I'm not a breeder per say but if you were me would you breed Lilbit? she's in full heat right now?


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Marty said:


> I've not read the thread and I'm not a breeder per say but if you were me would you breed Lilbit? she's in full heat right now?


Is she everything a conformational APBT would be Marty?


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know you tell me LOL


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm working up a ped on my own yard, hold on...


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [330706] :: JUST LOOKING AKA/LILBIT


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

OH yeah, that would definitely be a good collaboration of blood.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

I thought you were not going to breed lil bit?


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

How about this one... ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [330706] ::

Yeah but all these puppies are making me want one LOL


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm I wrong for wanting to breed what I have?


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

so that means if you breed her your going to send one here to nm right?


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

LOL......................... maybe


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

Maybe!!  lol


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Well Marty it would be like anyone else. Why are you wanting to breed her? What goal do you have for doing it?

we kinda threadjacked this post


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Sorry I have a hard time keeping up Hun, over 10 sites and the chats LOL

You know whats going on 

I'll be here till the day I die you know that


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

OldFortKennels if you owned her would you breed her?

Shes just a house dog but I'm asking would you yourself breed her?

I don't have to breed any dog but she's in heat right now 

This is just a question...


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Honestly Marty she is as we all know a fine specimen of a dog. However if I had no other reason to breed her other than that then no I wouldn't. Didnt you say in another thread she isnt what you would breed on your yard?

IMO being a good specimen does not mean it should be bred. I would hope that what dogs do get bred are good specimens.

When our dog Muffin comes into heat we are not going to breed her. She is a great dog, half sister to Switch but right now there is no purpose in it so we are not going to do the breeding. ON paper I would LOVE to do it but I dont have any other reason than that at this time. First Im going to work her and see how she performs, then if she does well then we might think about it but that is years to come.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

Well lets see how she does in weight pull LOL that will tell the story right?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

You are a grown man, do what ever floats your boat. Like you said she is a house dog, you also said you wouldn't breed her so Im confused as to why you are asking what we think?


> No Lilbit is Redboy/Jocko/tombstone/bolio, but shes not what I breed


But yeah, wp is better than nothing.


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## Marty (Dec 10, 2005)

I plead the fifth here. didn't want anyone getting excited LOL

Wow I can't make a breeding of G-B dogs?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> I plead the fifth here. didn't want anyone getting excited LOL
> 
> Wow I can't make a breeding of G-B dogs?


What do you mean? I didn't say you can't do a breeding. You just asked my opinion and I gave it to you? Im not getting excited, just debating with you.


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## BLUE PIT BULL MAN (May 22, 2009)

full circle now. lol


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> What do you mean? I didn't say you can't do a breeding. You just asked my opinion and I gave it to you? Im not getting excited, just debating with you.


 I think he's saying that she's not his choice of bloodline for breeding, His dog of choice is Jeep I do believe..


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

I'm sure many dogmen bred simply for the sake of preservation, I'm sure that it's not completely out of the norm..


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Marty said:


> I've not read the thread and I'm not a breeder per say but if you were me would you breed Lilbit? she's in full heat right now?


honestly i think it would be a shame not too,despite what ever she lacks in temperment,cull hard and you'd get some spot on game dogs i believe,at least from the confrimation stand point,jmo.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

cane, if its just from conformation stand point what makes it better than a am staff phew phew breeding?


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

*1. What would you consider your goals, or your kennels goals?*

My future goals are fairly straightforward. I want to produce moderate, balanced, versatile dogs that are capable of doing anything. And that can compete in both ADBA and UKC with reasonable success.

*2. What are the qualifying factors you look for in your bitches and studs?*

A lack of serious faults. Sound, outgoing, happy temperament. Legitimate registration. Athleticism. Moderation. Versatility. If we're talking about my own dogs, titles and health-testing. I say that because I know that the day may come when the best match for a girl of mine might just be a stud whose owner doesn't do the things I do. While it abrades my senses to consider it, I would not bar using a nice male simply because the owner doesn't place the same emphasis on that stuff as I do.

*3. How many times can a bitch be bred before retiring, and what age is ok to do so?*

I personally would probably never breed a bitch more than once or twice, mainly because I don't plan on having puppies every year. But if we're talking about a healthy female who is an exceptional producer (the only reason I could see to breed her repeatedly), I don't see why she couldn't have a litter every year or two until she's maybe 8, maybe even older depending on the dog. Terra was born when her mom was 8 years old, I think, and Trinity (the mom) is still very spry and healthy.

*4. How many times can a stud be used for breeding, and what age is it acceptable?*

I would say its the same as with females. Obviously a stud can physically be used hundreds of times, especially with frozen semen. But even with an outstanding dog, I would not feel comfortable breeding one of mine that much. If it was discovered later that he was harboring some unknown issue that I just dispersed throughout the breed, that would be horrible.

*5. I see many of you work your dogs. In your mind, is it ok to breed after your dogs have mastered one sport, or do you think the stock should be titled in several venues??*

I like to multi-title. My pipe dream goal for Terra is to have her Superdog (UKC title in agility, obedience, weight pull and conformation) before she we discuss options for her. I'll probably also try and get a CGC and TT on her. I think versatility is one of the things that makes our breed great. That said, it is probably "ok" to breed a dog after it has titled in one area, but I expect more from myself.

*6. How do breeders decide what is a fair price for a dog, a pick, or a pet, etc. *

I guess it depends on the breeder. I have paid $600-1000 for the purebred dogs in my life, and been given others. I would give away (or sell very cheaply) a puppy of mine if I really wanted it to get into a certain home. Since I am thinking about placing my dogs on co-owns, I don't intend to charge as much as some would.

*7. How many dogs can you have on your yard for breeding to preserve the breed, and not have it be a farm or mill?*

It would depend. If I were interested in preserving a line that was becoming extinct, I would obtain as many dogs as I could of that line. But I would not consider them all breeding stock unless I felt they'd proven their quality in the ways that I demand. For the breeders that I personally admire, they don't normally keep more than a dozen. And even then, they don't necessarily consider all of them breeding stock. Some will be retired dogs, or ones that were reclaimed from homes. I would place more stock in the number of litters one breeds rather than the number that are kept. Some folks keep entire litters to see how they turn out, which doesn't bother me but is also not necessarily something I'd want to do.

*8. What obstacles do you see during the breeding process and how are they overcome?*

As a non-breeder, I probably shouldn't answer this part. But I think I see a stumbling block for myself for the future. It can be hard if you are a small breeder who doesn't keep a lot of dogs for yourself to find a suitable mate that lives up to all your expectations. For example, if I were looking to line up an exceptional breeding for what I have now, I'd need to find a male that:

* is heavy Lar-San
* has passed health testing, not just barely and not just hips
* has not produced day-blind puppies
* is 55 lbs or less
* is titled in the show ring
* is titled in work
* has strengths to compliment my female's faults
* is owned by a person that I could see myself doing business with, or who would forgo any claim to the puppies.

It can be very hard to find a dog that fits all the points you're looking for. I know where to find dogs bred like I need, but they aren't always owned by folks that I want to "get into bed" with. Some are health-tested, some are not. Some are titled, some are not. Some are way too big. Some have the same faults as my dogs. So yeah, I could see where it would be really difficult to put together a nice breeding if you're looking for _everything._

*9. Last, but not least, what got you into breeding?*

I think when you're involved with nice purebred dogs, sometimes you just come across one that should be bred. Its not that I really want to deal with puppies, but I would like the opportunity to see what I can do as a small-scale enthusiast/breeder. Someday.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

LIL' Bit is a good looking gal; I love her muscle! The choice to breed or not is up to you. I don't know enough about her besides the way she looks to comment on your question.



> despite what ever she lacks in temperment


 Now see that is where I say "No". To me if there is a temperament issue it doesn't matter how good the dog looks or works, I wouldn't breed the dog. 
I'll explain my feelings on it a bit better; with all the BSL and the bad image the breed is given by the general public there is no reason to breed dogs with questionable temperaments. Whether a breeder is going to cull or not doesn't sway my feelings on that aspect. It isn't worth chancing that down the road a pup someone thought was fine has issues. 
JMO of course, everyone has to make what they feel is the right choice for them and their own dogs.

Breeding has so many variables. You want to stack the odds in favor of having a good litter not against you. Even with the best intentions and best dogs things don't always turn out, but you have a better shot when you start out right. Again JMO.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

patch - Here is how I look at it. Titles in any area are a plus, but not the end all be all. Knowing your dog and their capabilities is more important. I used to be big on saying only dogs that were titled should be bred, but over the years have changed priorities. I say this because I have witnessed some dogs with multi-titles that literally look like they hate and are being forced to work. A title like that then means squat. That is not a working dog nor one with proper drive no matter what the piece of paper may say. That is a dog with a persistent trainer/handler. See my point

i see your point but i disagree with you. the only way to TRULY know your dogs capabilities is to work it.. compete!!! Sure your dog MIGHT have the drive and temperament for Sch but you will never know until you actually do it. it doesn't matter what venue of sport work you THINK your dog is capable of doing, you don't really know unless there out there doing it!!! 

jmo


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I will have to get to this later this week ... Hard to type all that with one hand lol.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Well what makes it different from a amstaff breeding is that the dog is a gamedog,and not a staff,even if it is bred under the same guidelines or lesser guidelines it is still a traditional apbt in type,not a staff.
Now,all I'm going on about her temperament is what Marty has posted on these forums,that the dog is a little sketchy around humans,and if so,thats a judgment call,i mean theres been plenty of apbt,apbts that have made breed history that where even man biters so..
And lastly,why does a dog need a title in sport to be bred?
thats absurd,sport is just that,it isn't real life,it isn't real work and the breed wasn't even created for sch so why should it be expected to compete on the same level as maliois and such to be bred?
A good apbt is just that,and it dosent need to be titled in dog sport to be bred,it just needs to work and be of working type,and that observation is completely up to the owner and should be made with the bettering of the breed in mind,not a selfish decision made out of love for a pet dog.


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

> the only way to TRULY know your dogs capabilities is to work it.. compete!!! Sure


I see what you are saying, to an extent ...

Knowing your dog and the sport you are dealing with makes all the difference. This is how I see it with, things like regular basic obedience, agility and weight pull, you can certainly see right at your own house what they can and can not do. That is, if you have the know how, and needed equipment.

What I'm referring to is full blown evals. Quite different than someone saying something like, "oh my dog is athletic so I know they can do something like that" or someone who just looks at their dog and says, "oh they jump high I know they can do agility".

I'll just use Samurai as one example. He has never competed in agility, but can easily run a full course weave poles included faster than my agility titled gal. I have never competed with him, but I certainly know what he can and can not do. He has been on the equipment literally since he was steady on his feet as a pup just like most of my others .

I also feel therapy work is important and that is what I do a lot of now. The breed PR is more important to me at this point.

Maybe in the future, I'll get off my lazy butt and start doing trials again. LOL

In sports like SCH in the higher evals where protection and or bite work is involved I think it is more so a case of having to actually do it to prove it. However there are not a whole lot of people involved with that using APBTs.

So although I see what you are saying, I will agree to disagree.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

I see that as a double standard, just because the dog is from game lines and has good conformation its ok to be bred?? based only on conformation??? 

i agree on the whole sport is not real work, either is matching dogs. For me a dog needs to be worked in some way or another to displays its mental and physical strengths, wither that be the new legal sports that are available or the illegal traditional SPORT.

paper breeding or breeding a game bred dog based on conformation alone is wrong to me. its the same thing as an amstaff, as i said before same book different cover.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

oh and how long will it take breeding a game bred dog strictly for conformation until it is basically a staff. reminds me of a howard heinzel quote, I'm sure you have seen the quote


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

yes it is,but i think the dog is exceptional,and Marty at least knows if the dog should or should not be bred,i mean the dogs well known and people would want a pup off her,if he was a bully breeder right there would be enough reason to do it,correct,i mean dogs are bred on less merit than that every day,shoot,people breed no paper dogs in there back yard repeatedly on this forum,now lets talk about a real travisty.
this breeding hasnt even taken place yet,im saying if she is of type,do it,if not then dont.it clearly is a temperment issue because if the dog was correct in temperment and drive it aready would have happened.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

wheezie said:


> oh and how long will it take breeding a game bred dog strictly for conformation until it is basically a staff. reminds me of a howard heinzel quote, I'm sure you have seen the quote


well not that long,but couldnt the same be said for the dog you purchased?
those breeders due stricktly paper breedings now 100% of the time[american gamedog men of old].


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

you can call my dog a staff, i wont be testing him in any illegal activity's.

those breeders due stricktly paper breedings now 100% of the time[american gamedog men of old]

are you implying my dog was bred for a pretty papers lol? or are you just guessing?


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## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> i mean theres been plenty of apbt,apbts that have made breed history that where even man biters so..





> yes it is,but i think the dog is exceptional,and Marty at least knows if the dog should or should not be bred,i mean the dogs well known and people would want a pup off her,if he was a bully breeder right there would be enough reason to do it,correct,i mean dogs are bred on less merit than that every day,shoot,people breed no paper dogs in there back yard repeatedly on this forum,now lets talk about a real travisty.


Come on Cain, just because it has been done does not mean its ok to do it again. We are supposed to learn from history, not repeat it.

There have been implications to the sketchy temperament. That alone should be red flag enough, if indeed its true.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

cane76 said:


> honestly i think it would be a shame not too,despite what ever she lacks in temperment,cull hard and you'd get some spot on game dogs i believe,at least from the confrimation stand point,jmo.


this is very interesting to hear coming from you of all people.. cane - the " give me a ugly dog as long as it can work" guy. form someone that is so into working ability it shocks me that you think its a shame to not breed a dog that all you know about has great conformation and a sketchy temperament.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

you see i dont know if the dogs temperament is correct,i have no idea,I'm assuming that it is,if the dogs a nervous wreck then whys it even alive,if its a threat to society then thats another story,but i never got that impression,and I'm dont know the dog,so I'm going off of confirmation[which is maybe the best Ive seen ever]and assuming the dog can do the job,[assuming]thats all.
and I'm not implying your dogs a staff,or guessing,I'm asking a question,so how about it?
is that a paper breeding,a heavy Frisco dog and just that or more,a dog filled with ch,grch working dogs,or just hard nosed dogs in general,which i can almost guarantee it is.
i mean its not my dog,its not my choice and wor


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

i dont know if it has a sketchy temperment,thats the impession i get from posts,but ive never seen the dog in person so,i mean it wouldnt be the first time a game dog was a nervous fearful animal,jmo.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i was saying you can call him a staff because he will never be tested in the traditional way.

whether or not he comes from a purely paper breeding or bred straight off of the real deal, thats a foolish thing to talk about on a public forum


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Why would i call a apbt a staff?
and why not mention the dogs ancestory?your not hunting with the dog so it dosent matter and i figure your not gonna out anyone either,but this isnt about your dog,im sure hes a fine dog.
maybe lil bit shouldnt be bred,i dont know,from what i can tell,and if shes of sound mind,why not?theres worse dogs out there for sure.
I mean if she has heart and the drive to boot.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> There have been implications to the sketchy temperament. That alone should be red flag enough, if indeed its true.


well at least im not the only one thats heard that and thats the one reason id be hesitent if in fact the drive was extreme which i also do not know.


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## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i was refering to my dog as a staff because i thought you were saying any dog not bred for the box is no longer an APBt, i thought that after reading this

well not that long,but couldnt the same be said for the dog you purchased?
those breeders due stricktly paper breedings now 100% of the time[american gamedog men of old].

as for my dogs ancestr and there acomplishmnets, PM me.


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

well i know a bit about his ancestors,I'm interested in dogs in the first few generation though,if we go far enough back all are dogs are descendent's of gr ch fighting dogs,even American bully soo...
Im not of the ilk that a dog is no longer a apbt if not matched or worked in a hard nosed activity or tested,thats another guy,i mean they have to be somewhere down the ine in the dogs recent ancestory,but if the sire and dam where,and the progeny where not,the dogs still a apbt,now after a handful of generations a argument could be made.
I dont believe a dog has to be bred and tested or matched to be a apbt either,i mean a gsd dosent have to be a poice dog to be a gsd right?


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Just because her temperament is sketchy does not mean that ALL of her offspring would be the same. Me personally I think preserving her lineage (not to mention her own genetics) would be worth while. As stated before, cull and cull hard..JMO


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

yes,exactly.
just because she is a little skechy dosent mean all the pups would be,just like some cold game dogs throw hot offspring,i mean out of a total itter of pups im sure thered be a highly talented dog in there,and if ya culled hard,and i mean by way of execution you quite possably could get a great dog,and if not,oh well,those dogs that didnt make the cut wouldnt live to walk the earth anywho,so...jmo of course,not even my dog,but hey,he asked.


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## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

well damn, I was looking forward to a good debate...


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## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

your a day late and a doller short.


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Just to address the topic generally, I would not breed a dog with a sketchy temperament. Of course, we'd have to define just how sketchy it is. Some things are a matter of poor socialization while others are just unacceptable.


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## StaffyDaddy (Mar 28, 2009)

Anyone else care to add to this? Sorry to bump, I'm just curious


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## Patch-O-Pits (Jan 12, 2008)

bahamutt99 said:


> Just to address the topic generally, I would not breed a dog with a sketchy temperament. Of course, we'd have to define just how sketchy it is. Some things are a matter of poor socialization while others are just unacceptable.


 Then that gets into how do you know if it is simply from lack of socialization or a combo of a sketchy temperament and that?

I say this because most APBT _rescues_ I've met who have proper temp even with lack of socialization don't end up being sketchy temp dogs even though some do need to be worked with...
Of course. there are some who just have been through way too much to ever be brought around, but I'm talking rescues and they shouldn't be bred anyway.

When looking at dogs within a breeding program, I'd personally rather deal with a structural fault than a sketchy temperament. To me that would be easier to try to fix in a breeding and less detrimental to the breed if they are produced. Again JMO.

Breeding is not a perfect science. The variables you are working with can make it difficult since most you can't control, and you have to hope for the best. Starting with the best and a dog you are happy with gives you a better shot of producing pups you'll be proud of in the long run.

I consider myself still a newbie. 12 years of being around the breed is nothing compared to some, and I like I said have only bred 2 times. 
My perspective on things has changed greatly over the years in regards to breeding and what I look for in a dog.

It is a constant learning experience.


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