# gameness



## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Yep, I'm from the old school, schooled by people like KIMSEY WOOD, Ronnie Hyde, even Maurice Carver. Doesn't make me anything, just telling where my perspective on bulldogs come from. I call them bulldogs affectionately, most younger ones are confused and say pits! Well they're just bulldogs to me. anyway I wanted to comment about the trait of gameness. Get that? Trait? Is it is or is it aint! To quote one of my favorite southern writers. To presume it's a trait is to agree that gameness is genetic. Therefore, the question I address is one I recently saw, and now can't find it! If gameness can be bred in can we lose it over time, or breed it out of them? Of course, you can breed it out, but that is not to say by not fighting dogs that they loose their gameness. If the genetic make up is present, well it's present. The question is, how do you know the dog is game if it is not tested? You don't. And if the genetic make up is there then, whether the dog is tested or not, the gameness is there. Many confuse dog aggression with gameness, big mistake! Totally different. Some game dogs are not aggressive at all and many aggressive dogs are certainly not game! So, in conclusion, if gameness is genetic, it is in the dog whether or not we fight them. It may not be aggressive, which is sometimes present and I believe may be both genetic and learned behavior. But, to the contrary I don't believe you can teach gameness, it is genetic! Not to say a dog will not go longer for a master that it loves! Gameness is genetic, but don't forget, all things equal in genetics, then come, conditioning, health, family life, relations, etc. So blood is important just as the man, or woman, behind the dog is important!


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

Amen! One of the men that I like to call a mentor had this exact convo with me. Very wise words.


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Thanks, MSK, and I was just thinking of color with gameness. I have loved a brindle or two, a few white, more than a number of black and buckskin or reds. But a combination is my preference, and that's all it is, my preference!


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

Out of the 10 years ive been with these dogs I have been blessed to be exposed to alot since my husband has been in and around them for the past 20 years. His father got him into them and he got me into them. I have had many different bloodlines and colors and to me I dont think there is one I feel superior as a combination is what I seek with most anything. The dogs I have now are completely different then what my husband started me with. Thanks to the old man I spoke of earlier I was exposed to so many different types of bulldogs I would have never gotten my hands on if not for him. All ican say really is I thank god everday for my exposer to these dogs cause it forever has changed me.


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

good post rex,keep'm coming..


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## pookie! (Jun 20, 2011)

Its the easiest trait to lose in these dogs..


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## dday (Oct 5, 2010)

As always, it is always good to hear your perspective. I also have also just called them bulldogs, but occasionally I need to refer to them as "pit bull, or pit" just so some will know what I am talking about, lol. And as you obviously know, the word "game, or gameness" when it comes to canines is the most misused, miss understood term I can think of.


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## MSK (Aug 13, 2008)

Please keep these posts coming as we all are students. These are great posts.


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## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

Awesome Post Mr. A I think many people could really learn some thing bout gameness. I see all to much being a dog show attendant. People think cause the dog is barking that it is some thing special. I feel gameness is so important to where the dogss came from and huge part of why they are the versitile animal we know today. 

Thanks for the insight sir...!


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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Agree with Rudy! Thanks Mr.A for the great post. I love learning!


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

I agree to the fullest, and thank you, again, sir! There is much more for us to learn, and I would be grateful to learn as much as I can! As MSK said, we are all students here.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

That's a great point and I never even looked at it that way: just because a dog is aggressive does not make it game & vice versa.

Look forward to more of your posts!!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Hahaha great post there...... Can't say I disagree at all. up:


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## dylroche1 (Mar 14, 2010)

Great post! Thanks for sharing


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

rex abernathy said:


> Yep, I'm from the old school, schooled by people like KIMSEY WOOD, Ronnie Hyde, even Maurice Carver. Doesn't make me anything, just telling where my perspective on bulldogs come from. I call them bulldogs affectionately, most younger ones are confused and say pits! Well they're just bulldogs to me. anyway I wanted to comment about the trait of gameness. Get that? Trait? Is it is or is it aint! To quote one of my favorite southern writers. To presume it's a trait is to agree that gameness is genetic. Therefore, the question I address is one I recently saw, and now can't find it! If gameness can be bred in can we lose it over time, or breed it out of them? Of course, you can breed it out, but that is not to say by not fighting dogs that they loose their gameness. If the genetic make up is present, well it's present. The question is, how do you know the dog is game if it is not tested? You don't. And if the genetic make up is there then, whether the dog is tested or not, the gameness is there. Many confuse dog aggression with gameness, big mistake! Totally different. Some game dogs are not aggressive at all and many aggressive dogs are certainly not game! So, in conclusion, if gameness is genetic, it is in the dog whether or not we fight them. It may not be aggressive, which is sometimes present and I believe may be both genetic and learned behavior. But, to the contrary I don't believe you can teach gameness, it is genetic! Not to say a dog will not go longer for a master that it loves! Gameness is genetic, but don't forget, all things equal in genetics, then come, conditioning, health, family life, relations, etc. So blood is important just as the man, or woman, behind the dog is important!


Yeah, a lot of the younger crowd confuse dog aggression with gameness. Gameness was the first thing bred for, but was the last thing seen in a fight. Bob Wallace coined the term "Pepsi Generation" when the barnstormers started popping up. Like a can of Pepsi, when it is shaken it explodes, but then runs flat after a little bit. So the game dogs had to have the power to withstand the first 30 minutes, and then the barnstormers would tire, and the game dog would go in for the kill. Some are stupid enough to think all it took was a game dog. If the dog didn;t have what it took to win, even if it was game, it was nothing. Had to have the power to compete....

Others think they can make a dog game. That is a crock of s^&t. They are born game or they are not, although a person could have a game dog and still lose! Carver used to say, "You can't see the heart, but you can hear it!" Thus in conditioning he would find the point of maximum stress. A dog can only go as far as its heart takes it. He would say to some, "We can give a dog to Raymond, and all we have to do is bet on the other dog! I could give him Ironhead and he would f^&k it up!" So without proper conditioning, gameness didn't matter. A dead game dog is worthless.

Common characteristics of game dogs? They are often silent, show no teeth, no wasting breath with growls (which are a sign of a cur dog!). In battle they were often head to head, toe to toe...they were where the action was. Stifle dogs were considered curs. Joe Corvino used to say he preferred a head dog before all else, for they like to be where the fireworks were.


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Great post Goemon, you're sounding like my generation, speaking of soft drinks! You hit it on the head talking about traits of game dogs. I referred to those "wives tales" and for a trained experienced eye, those signals speaks volumes! And the posts I've read talking about breeding for the hard biting athlete rather than gameness is sad but true. I too observed this starting many years back, but you know they couldn't consistently breed winners. Maurice told me, always breed for gameness and if you get anything extra just count yourself lucky. Most of the good dogs showed no aggression and wouldn't fight sometimes until they were 3yrs old!


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

How many times I've seen a game old warrior not standing tall showing teeth and hair up for show to look bad, rather, silent, the front sunk low, just straining at the end of his chain wishing for more and just hoping that the growling, jumping, eager, young wanna be would just take a step closer so that he could just get a hold. I loved to see that nervous mouth go to quivering and salivating!


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

rex abernathy said:


> Great post Goemon, you're sounding like my generation, speaking of soft drinks! You hit it on the head talking about traits of game dogs. I referred to those "wives tales" and for a trained experienced eye, those signals speaks volumes! And the posts I've read talking about breeding for the hard biting athlete rather than gameness is sad but true. I too observed this starting many years back, but you know they couldn't consistently breed winners. Maurice told me, always breed for gameness and if you get anything extra just count yourself lucky. Most of the good dogs showed no aggression and wouldn't fight sometimes until they were 3yrs old!


Thanks Rex. We may know some of the same people who have crossed path over the years. I learned from some who were with the Texas boys from Carver's day, and knew him well.

Yeah, it was best to wait until the dog was between 2-3 years, so it reached its full potential, physically. Some started from birth, while others turned on later. Some could be around other dogs outside of the [], but heaven help the dog that started something! One sign my dogs give is when they get "jabber jaw" like an earthquake is going on inside of them. This is when they want to take hold of another dog. Then there is the game cry, which those who don't know mistake for fear or crying, when in fact they wanna fight so bad they lose control!


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Goemon said:


> Thanks Rex. We may know some of the same people who have crossed path over the years. I learned from some who were with the Texas boys from Carver's day, and knew him well.
> 
> Yeah, it was best to wait until the dog was between 2-3 years, so it reached its full potential, physically. Some started from birth, while others turned on later. Some could be around other dogs outside of the [], but heaven help the dog that started something! One sign my dogs give is when they get "jabber jaw" like an earthquake is going on inside of them. This is when they want to take hold of another dog. Then there is the game cry, which those who don't know mistake for fear or crying, when in fact they wanna fight so bad they lose control!


Yep! We didn't call it jabber jaw, just jaw popping and yea the crying I wanted to mention, not to be confused with the cowardly cry! They were two distinct emotions one in pity it wanted the other dog so bad, and the other like a growl just for show.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

What is a stifle dog?


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

rex abernathy said:


> rather, silent, the front sunk low, just straining at the end of his chain wishing for more and just hoping that the growling, jumping, eager, young wanna be would just take a step closer so that he could just get a hold.


See this right here kinda scares me. My boys been doing this A LOT lately as he's getting older. JTP read the ped for me and said he does come from fighters not to say that doesn't mean he'll be, and could be ice cold, it just scares me bc he is my first bulldog and to get a game dog as ur first is kinda a scary thought. A watered down one woulda been more my speed lol


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

DieselsMommie said:


> What is a stifle dog?


A dog that prefers to go to work on the hindquarters of another dog, simply speaking.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

Saint Francis said:


> A dog that prefers to go to work on the hindquarters of another dog, simply speaking.


So they just attack the back the legs? Lol


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

DieselsMommie said:


> So they just attack the back the legs? Lol


Bust up the rear, disabling the opponent, then work on back up front. Just one technique some use.


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

DieselsMommie said:


> What is a stifle dog?


Dieselsmommie, Dog men of the past always referred to the type fighter a particular dog was i.e. a leg dog, a chest dog, a leg dog, a head dog, an ear dog and the one you asked about, a stifle dog. Men had their favorites also, based on their experiences, and beliefs about the various styles of fighting dogs. If you had a hard biter and it was a leg dog you could take the front legs out. As Goemon referred to the stifle dog some believed not the gamest of styles because they believed the stifle dog was going for the stifle to stay away from the opponents head, and hence the bite! So, you have to ask what style is my dog, what does that mean and what do I want? Lot's of people liked head dogs because they went straight into the punishment, unafraid. I always liked head and nose dogs, but had one that didn't fair well against a hard biting brisket, chest dog. The nose dog couldn't reach the nose that was in his chest! Likewise there were lots of ole ear dogs that could ride an ear while keeping his front legs back out of the way and wear out many hard driving dogs that couldn't stay or get in on them! Were these ear riders afraid, yet winning matches and scratching in over two hours? Style may come with the type bumps and rolls they were submitted to in creating their styles. So many questions arise, I certainly want to look at an ear dog longer an harder than a head or nose fighter that is in the thick of it! With more answers come more questions as a matter of fact I think this should be a whole new thread, STYLES!


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

DieselsMommie said:


> JTP read the ped for me and said he does come from fighters not to say that doesn't mean he'll be, and could be ice cold, it just scares me bc he is my first bulldog and to get a game dog as ur first is kinda a scary thought. A watered down one woulda been more my speed lol


This is what the modern world does not understand.

The breed name officially became the *American (pit) Bull Terrier*, with "pit" in parentheses in order to signify breed type. They were *Pit Dogs.* So ANY dog that can claim to be ApBT is from a fighting ancestry. Back then a dog has to EARN the title of ApBT. They did not become too public until John P. Colby peddled them. Up until the 1976 Animal Welfare Act everyone knew what these dogs were for, and nobody had a problem with it. The media brainwashed politicians and the public, and the rest is history. Many cops were once in the dog game, so it took states to offer bounties for cash rewards for making dog matching a felony. It became illegal over money, and public ignorance.

Again, just because a dog is game has nothing to do with aggression. In fact gameness is a quality that gives a dog a stable temperament. Temperament is 80% hereditary, 20% environmental; genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger. Game dogs can weather the storm, while curs get unstable. It is the non game dogs that ruined the reputation of the breed.

If you were lucky to get a game dog for your first, that is a good thing! They have proven for years to be the best dogs of a sound mind, not getting scared of anything. Some may be shy, but never fearful! Never act aggressively towards people and never put on threat display.

And the most unpredictable are the "watered down" ones of unstable minds. Best bulldogs to get are those that know what they were bred for. Then they can never fool you!


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

That's the thing he's not one bit aggressive never has shown it before. The ONLY time I heard him growl is when a younger pup tried taking his toy. I was kinda shocked bc usually he's the one getting stuff taken from him. But I'm noticing him getting fixated, head hanging low, silent, he's never gone after another dog but it is a new behavior of his whereas when he was younger he wanted to get at the other dog to play and would wanna pull towards it. I'm just noticing his prey drive has been through the roof lately. I'll see his head hanging low fixated on something and I won't even see what the hell it is bc it's so far away yet his eyes are following it and he really won't stop he's like in a trance until I break him out of it. I'm not saying it means jack shit, I rather be aware of it then clueless.


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Goemon said:


> This is what the modern world does not understand.
> 
> The breed name officially became the *American (pit) Bull Terrier*, with "pit" in parentheses in order to signify breed type. They were *Pit Dogs.* So ANY dog that can claim to be ApBT is from a fighting ancestry. Back then a dog has to EARN the title of ApBT. They did not become too public until John P. Colby peddled them. Up until the 1976 Animal Welfare Act everyone knew what these dogs were for, and nobody had a problem with it. The media brainwashed politicians and the public, and the rest is history. Many cops were once in the dog game, so it took states to offer bounties for cash rewards for making dog matching a felony. It became illegal over money, and public ignorance.
> 
> ...


Liking the avatar G, need some updates.


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

Goemon said:


> This is what the modern world does not understand.
> 
> The breed name officially became the *American (pit) Bull Terrier*, with "pit" in parentheses in order to signify breed type. They were *Pit Dogs.* So ANY dog that can claim to be ApBT is from a fighting ancestry. Back then a dog has to EARN the title of ApBT. They did not become too public until John P. Colby peddled them. Up until the 1976 Animal Welfare Act everyone knew what these dogs were for, and nobody had a problem with it. The media brainwashed politicians and the public, and the rest is history. Many cops were once in the dog game, so it took states to offer bounties for cash rewards for making dog matching a felony. It became illegal over money, and public ignorance.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^this right here is probably one of the best dam post i've ever read!
well said slick,very well said!


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

And if I thought aggression meant game then my boy would definitely be a cur for sure lol he's not in anyway aggressive but I feel he's thee most stable dog I've owned in my life.

My mom was terrified of APBT terrified. I've been asking since 5 years old for an APBT, almost 25 years of my life and she never let me get one. Do you know she is in love with my boy? He is such a family oriented dog that he became part of the family instantly.


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Don't worry Dieselsmommie, these are just tell tale signs being espoused by old timers! There are many signs and you have to take them in clusters, one standing alone doesn't mean much at all one cur can have a good sign or two it's just when they come in clusters they prove over and over what an experienced eye believes! What I wanted to comment on to you is something that our friend, Goemon hit upon, unpredictability. True pit dogs were the most people loving dogs on earth! Thug peddling publicity hounds bred curs and gave our noble breed a bad name by crossing it with curs! How do you think dog handlers could go in and seperat dogs with their bare, unprotected hands? Because pits wanted to fight and bite dogs. Never would they bite or attack their handlers, or they would not have been usable in the pit! Much like a gentleman pugilistic, nothing to prove in no hurry to fight, but cross one and see what happens.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

But wouldn't a watered down mean an easier fit for a newbie?


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

rex abernathy said:


> Don't worry Dieselsmommie, these are just tell tale signs being espoused by old timers! There are many signs and you have to take them in clusters, one standing alone doesn't mean much at all one cur can have a good sign or two it's just when they come in clusters they prove over and over what an experienced eye believes! What I wanted to comment on to you is something that our friend, Goemon hit upon, unpredictability. True pit dogs were the most people loving dogs on earth! Thug peddling publicity hounds bred curs and gave our noble breed a bad name by crossing it with curs! How do you think dog handlers could go in and seperat dogs with their bare, unprotected hands? Because pits wanted to fight and bite dogs. Never would they bite or attack their handlers, or they would not have been usable in the pit! Much like a gentleman pugilistic, nothing to prove in no hurry to fight, but cross one and see what happens.


That makes perfect sense actually. They wanted a dog that can do both, be a fighter yet be part of the family. It's really sad how they are portrayed


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

DieselsMommie said:


> But wouldn't a watered down mean an easier fit for a newbie?


The term watered down is not a "pit term of art" it is simply a label you are putting on a dog that attempts to describe something that you would hope not to cause a beginner a lots of trouble. So, it depends on what you really mean by saying watered down? If you mean to say a pit that was a watered down cur that is unpredictable and may easier bite at people, obviously not! If by watered down you mean a dog that would not be so aggressive then definitely yes! But, you see, that's what we have been preaching all along. Game dogs can be lots less trouble, if they are predictable and you know if there's a dog comes around, trouble every time! Not trouble 20% of the time and you don't know which time. But also you see, there are lots of game dogs that wouldn't even start a fight, but bless the aggressive dog that took that as a weakness and jumped that game dog. Remember what you caught early on in this series, you said it yourself, gameness and aggression are not the same!


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

DieselsMommie said:


> That makes perfect sense actually. They wanted a dog that can do both, be a fighter yet be part of the family. It's really sad how they are portrayed


Yep, these little dogs were easy to handle and as they developed into what they were originally bred for they were predictable dogfighting machines that wouldn't bite a person at all! I have seen many handlers run their hands in dogs mouths while two dogs were at it without concern, I've seen the dogs dodge a handlers hand so he can bite the opposing dog. The worst thing to do is pull a bulldog off a cur because the cur will be snapping that everything that comes near, including a persons hands. BY cur, I refer to any dog that is not a pit bulldog! Not a bulldog, anyone could step inside to assist an owner, a total stranger could take his dog off and turn it over to him! Now remember there's always exceptions but these observations and knowledge we speak of is like a cluster of grapes. You get a good cluster and they're all good, even two or three good clusters only rarely will you find an exception!


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

DieselsMommie said:


> That makes perfect sense actually. They wanted a dog that can do both, be a fighter yet be part of the family. It's really sad how they are portrayed


In the past there were some who discarded the old timers way, and kept manbiters. CH Zebo is a well known one, who even attacked one dogmans son and bit his ear off. He should have killed that dog right there. Then there were some like CH Chinaman, who would bite to get let go to get at another dog.

The important thing was to have a dog of stable mind, that could be handled without worry after it was hurt. During matches they would listen and understand. When getting medical help they knew you were helping them. They do not get nervous or paranoid.

In my experience, most of my dogs could be around smaller dogs, as they viewed them as puppies. It's when they are around larger dogs or animals that they get a little crazy.

There's an old saying, the bigger they are, the bigger the chance they'll be curs; the bigger the other, heaven help their mother! Game dogs like a challenge. They wanna beat the best to be the best. As I posted elsewhere, they have the Highlannder motto, "There can be only one!" Many game dogs know other dogs are weak and no threat. However, MANY don;t care and want to get another dog any chance they get. As aggressiveness is not a sign of being game, so not getting excited doesn;t make them a cur. Takes experience of being around the different types.

Some dogs turn on later in life, while some begin from birth. Remember the saying, never trust a bulldog not to fight. But as Rex said, a true Pit Dog, traditionally, was the best family dog as well as Pit Dog. Look up The Great One, Centipede. He would allow girls to dress him up and put lipstick on him! LOL He was considered the best after his last match and had no takers at any weight.


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Goemon said:


> In the past there were some who discarded the old timers way, and kept manbiters. CH Zebo is a well known one, who even attacked one dogmans son and bit his ear off. He should have killed that dog right there. Then there were some like CH Chinaman, who would bite to get let go to get at another dog.
> 
> The important thing was to have a dog of stable mind, that could be handled without worry after it was hurt. During matches they would listen and understand. When getting medical help they knew you were helping them. They do not get nervous or paranoid.
> 
> ...


Yep, another good post, the man biters were culled very quickly not used, and of course that's how the gene pool developed! But remember the cluster of grapes theory, always an exception!


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

So when his heads hanging low fixated on a dog or cat that doesn't necessarily mean he'll go after it right? I guess that's what I'm worried about. He's been around dogs supervised, it's the little ones that scare me bc I feel like that's his prey drive. I dunno he just seems more interested in small animals. He's around the little dogs at work(supervised only) and he's never showed any signs of aggression towards them or any dog for that matter I don't know why I'm worried then honestly. I guess it's hard to explain without you guys being able to see what I'm talking about. I'll try to video it next time. It's not scary or anything he just fixates, follows them with his eyes and is not interested in anything else


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

But isn't that the dogs that they started wanting to breed?, the man biters? And by "they" I mean the ghetto crap you talk about. Isn't that what ruined the reputation? Nobody believes me when I tell them they were not bred to be human aggressive. They always come back with "well then what are the dogs you hear about killing people".


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

DieselsMommie said:


> But isn't that the dogs that they started wanting to breed?, the man biters? And by "they" I mean *the ghetto crap* you talk about. Isn't that what ruined the reputation? Nobody believes me when I tell them they were not bred to be human aggressive. They always come back with "well then what are the dogs you hear about killing people".


....and there's your answer.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

Wow truthfully, if I didn't get my boy as a gift, I feel like I woulda ended up with a mess. I probably would have gone on craigslist or went down to Venice beach and got myself a blue dog for $250. No joke. I didn't know ANY of this stuff before I got my boy. I guess that's kinda what I meant in the first place, who gives someone a decent bred bulldog with no experience as their first bulldog


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## Just Tap Pits (Mar 4, 2013)

DieselsMommie said:


> Wow truthfully, if I didn't get my boy as a gift, I feel like I woulda ended up with a mess. I probably would have gone on craigslist or went down to Venice beach and got myself a blue dog for $250. No joke. I didn't know ANY of this stuff before I got my boy. I guess that's kinda what I meant in the first place, who gives someone a decent bred bulldog with no experience as their first bulldog


A creeper.....


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

Lol!!! Seriously tho, how were they so sure I'd take this good of care of him? I wouldn't just give my legacy to someone just like that


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## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Thank you gentlemen for your insight. I was already aware that the two are not one in the same, but it seems to make more sense to me coming from a historical standpoint. Translated very well and I appreciate the time and effort you've put into this thread.


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## STiLL WILL (May 1, 2013)

This was a phenomenal discussion...Rex, thanks as always for your perspective on such a debatable subject, it makes for a great read when you hear it from people who lived it.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

Yeah I honestly love these kinda threads I learn so much. I definitely agree that there should be a thread on the different styles. Who woulda even knew the dogs had different styles?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Goemon (Jun 27, 2012)

DieselsMommie said:


> But isn't that the dogs that they started wanting to breed?, the man biters? And by "they" I mean the ghetto crap you talk about. Isn't that what ruined the reputation? Nobody believes me when I tell them they were not bred to be human aggressive. They always come back with "well then what are the dogs you hear about killing people".


What controls the public thought process, and has more power than any president or pope? Bingo, you're correct, _*the media.*_ Now, when the media learned of this breed, they saw a story the public would buy. The stories that came out, about the _mean fighting pit bulls who fight to the death, are fed blood, have jaws of death, etc_ terrified many in society,,,,but also *captured the evil imaginations of thugs in the inner cities.* Many have probably heard of all the forms of abuse used on these dogs, from locking them in the dark from puppyhood, to beating them, keeping them anti-social, and so forth. In essence, the media was the inventor of the "pit bull" mentality still out there today, and as Stratton said, they became a fulfilled prophecy. All those inner city thugs in the 1980's saw what they wanted all along, a vicious killer of a dog. The media was responsible, and still is, for all the abuse that happens, and for promoting manbiters among the scum who breed them.

When I was a boy I met a man who was a prodigy of Bob Wallace, and he put the blame on dogmen for this, even if indirectly. He stated that many of them had large yards, and when fighting became a felony the dogs were no longer of any use to them. So instead of putting them down like they should have, they sold them, to MANY of the wrong people. He said "those damn _thugs_ (he used another word) that can't even change a babies diaper are going to ruin this breed. They don;t deserve children, let alone a bulldog."

Human aggressiveness SHOULD be culled always, but a peddler don;t care about that. A back yard breeder is one who cares about the money and not the quality of the dog. Also, the fearful and frightened dogs need culled as well. It is genetic and dogs like that can do nothing to help the breed or its image. Other dogs have post traumatic stress from bad owners; I believe, personally, these dogs need put down too, because all dogs of unsound mind have that quality I mentioned earlier: unpredictability. Can never trust them dogs, and you never know when they are gonna snap.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

I am so glad I did not buy a dog that coulda ended up like that.

Do you know how many times I've been approached by "thugs" whether on Venice beach or even Ventura blvd trying to sell me a gorgeous blue eyed blue "pit bull" for $200? At LEAST 5 times. This is what I woulda gotten, guaranteed.

One of my friends back in NY has an Italian mastiff/Cane Corso, he used to have a "pit bull" and said it was the craziest dog ever. Even used to attack him and unfortunately now he thinks that is how they are suppose to be. Said THEY are crazy dogs instead of looking at his dog as an individual and badly bred.

I don't think ppl will ever change their minds unless they have a positive EXPERIENCE with a bulldog. Which kind of makes me feel good that I've been able to change a few ppls opinions on them since I've had my boy. Can't change them all, but it's a lot better then none at all.

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## rocthebully (Aug 17, 2013)

Awsome thread! Learned a lot


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

When u guys talk about the silent type is this for experienced dogs who were used to fighting or any game dog in general?

Today he did his head thing sunk low watched the rat terrier and pounced. I grabbed his collar right away and pulled him off. The rat terrier is usually the aggressive one but the sounds she was making weren't aggressive it sounded like she was scared and getting attacked. I don't know if this was an attack or not. I honestly don't think he had her in his mouth, she'd be hurt or dead. It happened all so fast and of course everyone screaming didn't make it better. He's always supervised around my moms dog which is why I was able to react as fast as I did. And now it's not like he wants at her again. It happened and it was over. I just am confused to as what it was bc yeah I'm not gonna lie, I've seen him play with little dogs before at work and it didn't look like this.

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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

If i had to take a guess what mr abernathy means is kinda like a 4/5/ year old dog just laying around watching all the younguns jump and yapping. He's just laying there done proved his worth and thinkin '''yep yall can do allllll the barking and shit yall want to...but if you ever get just a bit closer yo ASS is mine'''

that make sence???lol


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

Yes it does lol

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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Sometimes, actually a lot of times when a dog of any breed is playing they will go into stalk mode -- and wait for the perfect moment to surprise the other dog, much like cats do when they play. This is all just in play. If he was wanting to attack and kill that other dog he would have done it. 
It's always a good idea to keep an eye on him but to me it sounds like he is just playing. 

Now my dog Pyra IS a stealth attack dog lol! She never barks, growls or anything. But the second my foster dog passed near her Pyra tried to grab her through the kennel. It took me off guard the first time she did that. And she does the same thing on walks. Walks great until that other dog is a foot away and then she goes for it. Wags her tail like a friendly dog and people see this and just assume "awww she wants to say hi to my dog" um, no she doesn't.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

So if he really really wanted to attack her it woulda happened then right? It wouldn't take much honestly, she can fit in his mouth lol

How do I know he isn't pulling a Pyra lol

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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Cuz she'd be dead lol! But since he is a bully breed you never know when the switch might turn on so it's wise to watch him. It seems they think small dogs are either puppies which is a good thing....or they think they are rabbits... not so good...haha!


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

That's what I'm trying to figure out!! for the past week my guess would be rabbit bc his prey drives been crazy lately

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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

I'd say its time to keep them always separate if he starts chasing after her and she doesn't like it, even if he is playing....because once a little dog shows its panicking that is when a lot of dogs regardless of breed decide to attack....and with these breeds it wouldn't end well.


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## DieselsMommie (Jul 7, 2013)

They usually are separated. She was coming in from her walk on her way to "her territory" and he's never unsupervised which was how I was able to grab him so fast. I know all he'd have to do is the kill shake and she's done for. For a split second I really thought it was gonna be bad I really did but stayed as calm as possible I dunno how

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## ::::COACH:::: (Apr 4, 2012)

Good job on staying calm!


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

Well put Goemon. I'll bet that everyone old enough remembers that in the 70's and early 80's you never heard of a bulldog biting anyone! That was due to knowledgeable owners, dog men, kept this breed and used them responsibly and taught others that they gave or sold dogs to as well. Then wannabes began to get dogs, and being a cur they soon turned their so called pitbulls into curs like themselves. Curs bow up, growl, and use all sorts of tactics to make you think they're bad, like owning a "pit bulldog"! And these darn dogs are smart as any, hard headed stubborn, but smart, which reminds me of something Dieselsmommie said, lets talk about styles, I'll start, then ya'll straighten me out!


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

CURS RAISIN CURS.....THATS A GOOD ANALOGY.

STYLES MITE NEED TO BE VIP...

I ALMOST POSTED WHAT STYLE I CARE FOR AND THOUGHT BETTER OF IT...

IF YALL START I SHARE GUESS IT AINT MOD LIKE TO SHARE THAT IN THE GEN DISS>>>>oke:


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

welder said:


> CURS RAISIN CURS.....THATS A GOOD ANALOGY.
> 
> STYLES MITE NEED TO BE VIP...
> 
> ...


Thanks Welder, I wrote a good piece and deleted it, whew, I'm learning!


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## welder (Jan 25, 2013)

Well crap i did to hahaha!!!


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## rex abernathy (Nov 23, 2013)

welder said:


> Well crap i did to hahaha!!!


On vip Welder, left lots of stuff for you to write about!


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