# how far back in a ped do you look



## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

how far back in a ped do you look to judge purebred? 

i ask this because a few respected kennels have lately said they were getting dogs of a mixed heritidge to experiment with.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

if the dog is registered and has papers it is considered purebred. HOWEVER there are people who do things like paper hang , those that use one stud but register it to another ect very dishonest people out there so the only true way IMO to know what you have is to produce the dog yourself { meaning generations of breeding } , not telling you to go breed theres alot more involved then just that. I find it very hard to trust people these days and go by there word. If the dog is papered you can call it purebred though, anything without papers you never know what is in there .


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

even with papers you still cant trust it. ive seen a ton of adba papered dogs that arent what they claim


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

thats what I said , but thats usually all you have to go on ,unless you can prove the person lied and have evidence to back it up and report it , { you would probably lose your papers in that case } thats really all you can go on , you have to take it with a grain of salt it is what it is.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

ok back to the original question =)


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

zohawn said:


> how far back in a ped do you look to judge purebred?
> 
> i ask this because a few respected kennels have lately said they were getting dogs of a mixed heritidge to experiment with.


You must do your own research here, and not listen to others. While there are many pretenders out there, there are still honest breeders. It's best to look to the breeders who have been at it the longest. A 30 year breeder knows more than a 10 year breeder, always. If any breeder speaks of "mixing" you can be sure they didn't produce much to begin with.

The only part of the ped that matters are the first 14 dogs, that's it. It shows "what's been done lately." Pups come out like their grandparents and great grandparents. Just because a dog way back is in ped, it don't mean nothing now.

BTW, I would question the respectability of any kennel who mentions "experiments."
And remember this: Never trust a breeder who breeds for a living.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Eagle said:


> You must do your own research here, and not listen to others. While there are many pretenders out there, there are still honest breeders. It's best to look to the breeders who have been at it the longest. A 30 year breeder knows more than a 10 year breeder, always. If any breeder speaks of "mixing" you can be sure they didn't produce much to begin with.
> 
> The only part of the ped that matters are the first 14 dogs, that's it. It shows "what's been done lately." Pups come out like their grandparents and great grandparents. Just because a dog way back is in ped, it don't mean nothing now.
> 
> ...


im hoping lisa chimes in here. i was reading one of her posts the other day and she said that...but ive heard it many times before from other honorable kennels too. it just got me thinking of genetics etc.


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## angelbaby (Feb 4, 2010)

are you sure she said mixing other breeds? or maybe she was talking baout lines? I havent heard her talking about mixing breeds but maybe I just missed that post.


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## motocross308 (Oct 5, 2010)

zohawn said:


> im hoping lisa chimes in here. i was reading one of her posts the other day and she said that...but ive heard it many times before from other honorable kennels too. it just got me thinking of genetics etc.


maybe mixing different lines to get desireable traits . If you are breeding from a line that lacks something specific , finding a line that is strong with that trait and doesnt lack in the other traits you desire is the way to improve your line over time ... its something left to people that know the game .


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

motocross308 said:


> maybe mixing different lines to get desireable traits . If you are breeding from a line that lacks something specific , finding a line that is strong with that trait and doesnt lack in the other traits you desire is the way to improve your line over time ... its something left to people that know the game .


right.

im actually asking a personal question here. how far back DO YOU go into a ped and still feel the dog is purebred? there has to be a limit or we would all have malosians-----thanks for your response eagle!


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

That is a personal question you have to ask yourself. How far back in the ped if there was a mixed breeding would you consider enough generations to have a purbred dog again. I think the answer will vary on every one who answers it and with no "right" answer. Some will say the dog never can be considered pure no matter how far back. Other might say 7 generations. I think there is no right answer to your question just opinions.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> That is a personal question you have to ask yourself. How far back in the ped if there was a mixed breeding would you consider enough generations to have a purbred dog again. I think the answer will vary on every one who answers it and with no "right" answer. Some will say the dog never can be considered pure no matter how far back. Other might say 7 generations. I think there is no right answer to your question just opinions.


yeah, opinions is what i was lookin for


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

oh, and it was your pitterstaff that got me thinking, lisa.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/31331-pitter-staff-what-reason-those-breedings.html

lol at what sadie said in that post


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

zohawn said:


> oh, and it was your pitterstaff that got me thinking, lisa.


I do have a few dogs with pitterstaffs in the ped however I the ones have bred are true to the original form and structure of the breed. What I have a HUGE problem with is is these UKC breeders breeding AST's and APBT's and making these huge bully looking dogs. The few dogs I have in my yard are still true to the APBT and do show in the ADBA and have done really well. I use to be against pitterstaffs all together until I owned a few and have changed my mind. This goes back to not only breeding the pedigree but also the dog in front of you. Dixie may be a pitterstaff but DAMN that dog is all bulldog!

Now when I was talking about experimenting it was with different bloodlines I have in my house and they are a total outcross so we will see what they produce. What you were asking in your post was about mixing breeds right? Like mixing a American Bulldog with an APBT that would be a mixed breeding.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

performanceknls said:


> I do have a few dogs with pitterstaffs in the ped however I the ones have bred are true to the original form and structure of the breed. What I have a HUGE problem with is is these UKC breeders breeding AST's and APBT's and making these huge bully looking dogs. The few dogs I have in my yard are still true to the APBT and do show in the ADBA and have done really well. I use to be against pitterstaffs all together until I owned a few and have changed my mind. This goes back to not only breeding the pedigree but also the dog in front of you. Dixie may be a pitterstaff but DAMN that dog is all bulldog!
> 
> Now when I was talking about experimenting it was with different bloodlines I have in my house and they are a total outcross so we will see what they produce. What you were asking in your post was about mixing breeds right? Like mixing a American Bulldog with an APBT that would be a mixed breeding.


it was more about pitterstaffs, ive heard this name thrown around just rarely...and it always seemed to be by knowledgeable people, it just got me curious because i did a search and saw nothing but hate. your recent post got me thinking about it is all- that a genetics on a scientific level etc.


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## Boogieman (May 27, 2011)

zohawn said:


> how far back in a ped do you look to judge purebred?
> 
> *i ask this because a few respected kennels have lately said they were getting dogs of a mixed heritidge to experiment with.*


LOL this statement contradicts itself. I would hardly call any kennel respectable that (A) breeds dogs of mixed heritage, or (B) does a breeding to experiment!

Sounds like turd producers to me.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Boogieman said:


> LOL this statement contradicts itself. I would hardly call any kennel respectable that (A) breeds dogs of mixed heritage, or (B) does a breeding to experiment!
> 
> Sounds like turd producers to me.


i used the word experiment in the same context lisa did, or at least i ment it that way-my bad. same with heritage...i guess the proper word would be bloodline.


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## Boogieman (May 27, 2011)

Mixing 2 bloodlines would be referred to as an outcross. Nothing wrong with that IMO. Some of the best dogs on the planet are an outcross. 

IMO a breeding should always be done with a plan and an intention. Not just to throw 2 dogs together to see what you get, AKA an experiment. If there isn't a solid reason to do it, then DON'T! 

That's the way I look at it.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Boogieman said:


> Mixing 2 bloodlines would be referred to as an outcross. Nothing wrong with that IMO. Some of the best dogs on the planet are an outcross.
> 
> IMO a breeding should always be done with a plan and an intention. Not just to throw 2 dogs together to see what you get, AKA an experiment. If there isn't a solid reason to do it, then DON'T!
> 
> That's the way I look at it.


just a bad choice of words on my part. that and most of the people here are quick to jump on somebody...still better than the other pb forums though.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

If your looking for working dog's anything after 4 generations is pretty much useless. I personally look at the first 4 generations as the most important. If a dog is registered with a respectable registry like the ADBA/UKC/AKC than the dog is purebred as we know it to be.

Mixing breed's is done by BYb's those breeder's are hardly reputable. As Boogieman has stated breedings should not be done off the fly seat of your pant's. If your breeding dog's you need to be breeding with a purpose and outcome in mind. Otherwise your just over populating the population with sub par puppies that would not be good representations of the breed. Without selective breeding and culling your not breeding your just producing pups basically. And any scum bag can do that. 

Out crossing family of dog's can be done to strengthen and add introduce new trait's into a breeding. As always this should be done by people who understand the dog's and what's behind them. It's always best to breed under the supervision of a mentor someone who has been producing successful stock for a long time.


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## zohawn (Jun 8, 2011)

Sadie said:


> If your looking for working dog's anything after 4 generations is pretty much useless. I personally look at the first 4 generations as the most important. If a dog is registered with a respectable registry like the ADBA/UKC/AKC than the dog is purebred as we know it to be.
> 
> Mixing breed's is done by BYb's those breeder's are hardly reputable. As Boogieman has stated breedings should not be done off the fly seat of your pant's. If your breeding dog's you need to be breading with a purpose and outcome in mind. Otherwise your just over populating the population with sub par puppies that would not be good representations of the breed. Without selective breeding and culling your not breeding your just producing pups basically. And any scum bag can do that.
> 
> Out crossing family of dog's can be done to strengthen and add introduce new trait's into a breeding. As always this should be done by people who understand the dog's and what's behind them. It's always best to breed under the supervision of a mentor someone who has been producing successful stock for a long time.


i think the majority of registries are infiltrated by byb. take my pup for instance (check out my intro post) his papers clearly state apbt and its ADBA. 1 look at his ped will tell you otherwise.

usually the culling topic is a heated debate lol but imo needed.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Well the registries are in place for one thing the all mighty dollar. So yes they will register anything as purebred if you have the 30-40 to pay them. But the big registries at least have sanctioned show's and competitive event's in place for those wishing to participate in showing/WP. So at least you getting your buck's worth vs paying to register a dog with the CKC and not being able to compete in anything. 

It's unfortunate but most of us coming into the breed have been taken by BYB's at one time or another until we educated ourselves about the breed and the difference between a good breeder and a byb.


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## performanceknls (Apr 4, 2009)

zohawn said:


> it was more about pitterstaffs, ive heard this name thrown around just rarely...and it always seemed to be by knowledgeable people, it just got me curious because i did a search and saw nothing but hate. your recent post got me thinking about it is all- that a genetics on a scientific level etc.


There are a lot of people who hate the term pitterstaff and like them to be called AST's or APBT's. A pitterstaff to me is an amstaff or AST and an APBT mixed together at some point in the ped.

AST's came from APBT's we all know that but they have been bred for other purposes than what the original APBT was bred for and the structure and temperament are different as well. There are pitterstaff that have stayed true to APBT's form and function and those lines I really like. My new pup I just picked up I call a pitterstaff and she is off the TNT dogs.
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zohawn said:


> i think the majority of registries are infiltrated by byb. take my pup for instance (check out my intro post) his papers clearly state apbt and its ADBA. 1 look at his ped will tell you otherwise.
> 
> usually the culling topic is a heated debate lol but imo needed.


:goodpost:


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