# what is Paper Hanging?



## PatienceFlame

did I say that right? Paper hanging? I hear it alot on here...what is this? and what do i look for next time I go to by my male pup so I can avoid this?


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## buzhunter

Paper hanging is faking a dog's pedigree. It's hard as hell to avoid unless you can trust the breeder (or know his dogs better than he does) because the registries do little to stop it.


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## Sampsons Dad

Registering a pup under another dogs registration number to make it seem as if a scatter bred dog has a pedigree.


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## geisthexe

A lot of your Dog Registries Organizations do not do there homework on the dog/breed that the papers are being hung on. So as long as you have docments, pictures, pedigree, etc ... that dog can get registered. 

EX: A breeder overseas in the Presa world found out a guy in the states hung papers on his female with Overseas breeders name and the parents of her male.. he claimed she owned the parents so the UPPCC (Richard Kelly Pres/Owner) registered the dog. So now the hungpapers where sent into the UKC b/c they except UPPCC paperwork so the dog was registered. But the is fighting it. First was brought to the attention of UPPCC (Richard Kelly) and he sent an email back basically stating he was not going to reverse the paperwork and to bad. (I personally have that organization, bad folks ) 
So now she is working with the UKC to get the papers reversed and get UPPCC dropped as a parenting club for our breed. I hope she gets it. 

This can cause so many problems in a line meaning: health issues, looks, behavior issues, etc. This just doesnt make a pedigree/owner/breeder look bad it can ruin a name for good in the world of that breed. 

Its GREAT when it is caught but most dont


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## PatienceFlame

Yeah, but wouldn't the people that's ped was stolen know about it? and why can't people just realize if it doesnt have papers it doesnt have papers. Who really cares?

*Sigh*

how can you tell if papers are 'hung'? 

and I hear people are making FAKE papers what do they look like?

I don't want to get ripped off! I don't really even trust alot of people nowadays...not even kennels


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## geisthexe

RileyRoo said:


> Yeah, but wouldn't the people that's ped was stolen know about it? and why can't people just realize if it doesnt have papers it doesnt have papers. Who really cares?
> 
> *Sigh*
> 
> how can you tell if papers are 'hung'?
> 
> and I hear people are making FAKE papers what do they look like?
> 
> I don't want to get ripped off! I don't really even trust alot of people nowadays...not even kennels


Sometimes its hard to know.. Folks will find out from a breeder how many went to pet homes and did not get registered. So they use a number that has not been used and use it. (AKC has were you can find out how many were puppy registered and how many where registered with there new homes) 
Its not hard these days to create a fake ped and get it into a reg. like I explained on the Presa's
Not all the time can you tell. The only way is if they DNA the parents (BREEDER) I myself have my Presa's DNA. 
FAKE paperwork will look like the real stuff .. Most registries have a stamp to prove athentic but I am NOT speaking of personal breed registries.

Your best bet the next time you go looking for a dog, you find a Reputable breeder and DO your homework.


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## Pitcrew

Another way of hanging papers for the BYB is say some guy has a yard full of dogs. Lets say he breeds dog A to dog B but he SAYS it is Dog C to Dog B.
He would do this only if the stud dogs are 2 different lines of say Eli or Carver etc. He might say it was from a better producing Line of that bloodline.

He would do this because Dog C is throwing better pups BUT he doesnt want the general public to have the dogs so he flat out lies.


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## 10616

.........................


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## OldFortKennels

Its easy to do and impossible to stop other than DNA and even that is easy to fake.

FIND A BREEDER YOU TRUST and work with them.


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## PatienceFlame

thanks everyone. I have found a few kennels online I line...but how can you even trust them?


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## B.Mamba

i did not know this still goes on. I know some breeder's have done this to get started on there style of pitbull's. But yeah, i can still see this going on. 

But for you to be sure that you are getting the pup from that specific breeding. Pictures would be nice i guess?


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## PatienceFlame

why are there so many unkown lines on this dog's sires side?
Online Pedigrees :: :: IRONHEAD GAMEDOG'S REEKO :: [203136]

not to be rude or anything I was just curious


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## buzhunter

I wonder why they willingly hand out the registrations for just about anyone who wants to register their litter. Why not require some sort of proof like points in conf or working events? Would make sense to me. If it's an inconvenience to the owner, then maybe it's not so important to them? I've heard that in Germany a GSD has to be titled in order to be registered. Not sure if it's true or not but it sounds like they know how to avoid sub-par dogs carrying their name around. Can't hurt.


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## aimee235

buzhunter said:


> I wonder why they willingly hand out the registrations for just about anyone who wants to register their litter. Why not require some sort of proof like points in conf or working events? Would make sense to me. If it's an inconvenience to the owner, then maybe it's not so important to them? I've heard that in Germany a GSD has to be titled in order to be registered. Not sure if it's true or not but it sounds like they know how to avoid sub-par dogs carrying their name around. Can't hurt.


I think it is because they were created to keep records not to say which dogs should be bred and which shouldn't.


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## buzhunter

Right, right. But they could control which dogs could be registered, not just accept the breeder's word. It would do a lot for their credibility especially since so many people regard them as the authority for purebred dogs. They can't possibly be oblivious to this problem.


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## geisthexe

Dogs in Germany can be registered with pedigrees. 
Dogs have to be Proven (show/working titles) before they can breed. 

If it is a companion breed then show. 
If it is a working breed then working titles. 

Litters have been known for getting put down for breeding unlawfully.


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## Firehazard

Yeh, theres alot of empty names behind several CH's even of the dogs back in the day. Tudors was rumored to do this, but Tudors also gathered every CH he could regardless of its bloodline, stating "good dogs are where you find em'" The dog in the pedigree ~ a patterpit can be crossed into a game dog and get a dog VERY SIMILAR to that dog posted. The dog on top could be anything and they could say its anything w/out DNA testing linking parents and direct 4 generation ancestors subjected to believe what they say or call them out. Stolen game dogs come up all the time, I new a fella who got a primo dog at a truck stop in Bville, what I called a MidCowboy/STP dog, as he was a spittin image of MDcowboy but he had that Jocko brindle and fire, only it was black on slate black brindle, they dropped him off coming out of TXMEX border on their way to KC, the dog lost and they didn't need him... SAD. Long story short dog ended up stolen and years later I seen him in Muglestons before their bully craze.. LOL nuff said..

I know many dogs rung and many breeders who know they have rung dogs, but if they are pushing rung dogs, or ring a dog, or ring a dog and then get rid of it. They are chknsht lying thieves.. I have no use for people like that in general.

Only way to avoid this, is study and know bloodlines their traits defaults and strengths. As well as their consistent conformation and recessive conformation traits.. They all have distinctions and they all have similarites of course. However each dogman has a line he prefers unless they are like Tudors and appreciate any CH regardless of how its bred. The other is to find reputable breeders who don't mess around. http://www.ironlinekennels.com/Page_1x.html OPEN HOUSE KENNELS - OPEN HOUSE KENNELS - Home of the tightest Redboy Jocko Dogs, Hollingsworth Dogs, Tombstone / Bolio Dogs, Jeep Dogs, Tant Dogs, Mayday Dogs, and GR CH Buck Dogs in the World


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