# Back to Breeding



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

New to this forum looking for some sound advice. I bred for about 6 or 7 years with a particular line and some things started to show that I wasn't fond off so I stopped breeding. (I've had Pits around for about 25 year...since I was about 5 or 6.)

I figured out where I went wrong I wasn't keeping the right pups. Started with a different line until I found out there was a hip issue luckily it only took one litter of 3 pups to figure that out. 

It's been about 5 years since and I'm now working with some dogs that were given to me. (FYI, I'm establishing a line not trying to preserve someone else's BS, No papers, too much paper hanging, I'll be keeping my own records starting with these two) A male performance bred APBT (5 yrs. never bred) and a female XXL Pit/Staffordshire Bull Terrier cross...both parents performance bred and trained (2 1/2 yrs. never bred). Both meet confirmation standards and have great temperments.

I have personally handled at min a 100 dogs and been around way more. The lapse in my breeding was me doing my research and making sure I am starting with a solid foundation. 

Just had my first litter and am going to have both parents and pups I keep genetic tested for hip, elbows etc when I get some spare change, everything that can be seen is A1! 

I'll be keeping pups until 4-6 months. Pups I don't keep will be fixed and sold as pets and I'll be keeping tabs. 

I have my own ideas as far as what I'm trying to accomplish and what I'll be looking for but any advice would be greatly appreciated. Open to any questions, comments, critiques or suggestions. 

Also what is a reliable company that does genetic testing and what all should I have tested?

Here's some pics of my male and female, and the pups. I also have pics of mothers parents.


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

Closharris said:


> New to this forum looking for some sound advice. I bred for about 6 or 7 years with a particular line and some things started to show that I wasn't fond off so I stopped breeding. (I've had Pits around for about 25 year...since I was about 5 or 6.)
> 
> I figured out where I went wrong I wasn't keeping the right pups. Started with a different line until I found out there was a hip issue luckily it only took one litter of 3 pups to figure that out.
> 
> ...


Pics of pups hit send button too early


----------



## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish?


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

High drive, uniformity in structure, temperment and intelligence. Being that the dog world is what it is now I would like to have a line of pet/protection/catch dogs. Going to reach out to handlers of both and place fixed dogs to get some feed back. Not putting something together for the novice. I will be very selective where I place my dogs.


----------



## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

That's pretty vague, but good luck with your goals.


----------



## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

Your goals seem to be in line with others who breed. However, I personally don't believe breeding a purebred and a mixed breed will produce purebred pups. I stopped momentarily while reading your post when you said no registration papers and wondered to myself why you wouldn't want the registry to help you keep track, but now I understand after reading that the dam is mixed. 

I mean no ill will but we do not promote breeding here, although it may seem so since we have a couple of "Authorized Breeders" here. Authorized meaning they've met our standards when it comes to breeding practices. Us administrators have very high standards and strict values pertaining to breeding, including ethics, knowledge, and purity to name a few. 

I'm in no way knocking what you're trying to accomplish here, but the majority of members here are mixed breed pet owners. A few of us have purebreds, but we do not actually breed, nor have any desire to breed. We are die hard purists though. I'm just giving you a heads up, you're probably going to catch a lot of flack from some of our members once they read your post. As an administrator I will do my best to keep the flame throwing to a minimum, but I wanted to warn you. 

I do have a question though... are you planning on representing this litter as purebred APBTs? Because if so, I strongly recommend that you rethink that idea. Using a mixed breed dog and breeding to a purebred simply does not allow for the pups to be purebred. Genetics just doesn't work that way. Do you plan on placing these pups in responsible and knowledgeable homes, or are you keeping the entire litter and culling what you don't keep for the future of your program? What kind of contract do you have for the pups that might be going to new homes? Do you have a clause that states you'll take the pup back no matter what is wrong, or what happens during the lifetime of the pup? Do you have homes lined up already, or are you still trying to find homes? What are your standards in looking for a proper home for your pups?

These are all very important questions and you really need to have answers to, imo, to tell you whether you should be breeding or not in the first place.


----------



## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

Honestly, I didn't have the energy to really respond to this last night, but now that I do, there are a lot of issues with your plan that I think you should consider. 

First, what's the point of health testing AFTER you've already bred your dogs? The whole purpose is to ensure that your stock is free of hereditary health issues before breeding, to produce the healthiest pups possible. Health testing afterwards just defeats the purpose. If it's an issue of the cost, then you have even bigger problems, because a whole little of unhealthy dogs is going to cost you a lot more than health testing two, not to mention if you ever have some sort of emergency with any of them or the bitch while whelping. You'd think you would have learned after having a whole litter that was dysplastic. Our fellow mod Joe can attest to just how difficult that makes life for a young, energetic dog. 

Second, why use bull breed mutts? Your goals for these puppies seem pretty vague, but if you're wanting protection dogs, I don't understand why you'd use untested Bulldogs as your starting point. You have no idea whether the parents even have the potential to create the exceptional puppies you're after, as I see no mention of achievements on their end. Not to mention that Bulldogs tend to be just about the worst breed you could pick for guard/protection venues, as they're typically indiscriminately human friendly. 

I'm not really sure how you expect to produce uniformity in anything when you're working with mutts. It'll take you many many generations to achieve that, so what are you planning to do with the extras? Cull? Place in pet homes? We have enough bull breed mutts suited for family pets in the shelters already. 

I think you believe you've thought all this through, but evidently you have not. If you really want to breed, you need to find yourself a mentor that knows what they're doing and can guide you in the right direction. You've obviously struggled to meet your goals in the past, and it sounds like the dogs were the ones to suffer from it. Please do some more research before you make the same mistakes again.


----------



## Blossom01 (Nov 8, 2014)

Closharris said:


> (FYI, I'm establishing a line not trying to preserve someone else's BS,
> 
> I have my own ideas as far as what I'm trying to accomplish and what I'll be looking for but any advice would be greatly appreciated. Open to any questions, comments, critiques or suggestions.
> .


Number one suggestion. Don't expect anything constructive to come from this board regarding this subject!

Number two: I personally am not against breed crossing -- there are some interesting sites regarding this subject (when it's appropriate, plans, goals etc) -- totally outside this board's scope. I will PM you.

Number 3: l personally would not have started with (what appear to be) 2 dilute dogs. You are just breeding yourself into a corner regarding color/pigment. Unless that is a primary goal.....


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

ThaLadyPit said:


> Your goals seem to be in line with others who breed. However, I personally don't believe breeding a purebred and a mixed breed will produce purebred pups. I stopped momentarily while reading your post when you said no registration papers and wondered to myself why you wouldn't want the registry to help you keep track, but now I understand after reading that the dam is mixed.
> 
> I mean no ill will but we do not promote breeding here, although it may seem so since we have a couple of "Authorized Breeders" here. Authorized meaning they've met our standards when it comes to breeding practices. Us administrators have very high standards and strict values pertaining to breeding, including ethics, knowledge, and purity to name a few.
> 
> ...


In the pitbull lines technically there is no such thing as "purebred" when these dogs were first developed and especially when they came to America these dogs were crossed with pitbull type dogs from different areas of Europe as well as some stock that was probably already in America, thus the name American Pitbull Terrier, because it was developed amongst many different types of dogs.

As far as being "purists" and flack that fine, I like to educate so that's cool with me. Part of joining was me wanting to educate the misinformed. What most dog owners are doing is maintaining a line of mixed dogs put together by dogmen of old labeled as APBT, your papers only go back as far as whenever whoever established the line and even moreso that was before labels were put on by "clubs" of different strains (types) of Pit dogs. Many of the "pure" dogs today (not all) are garbage due to breeders and owners trying to maintain a title and not knowing how to breed or hanging papers which is rampant. Even with dogs of old.

That is why I judge the dog not words on paper. Most papers are like money, not worth the paper its printed on. Both of my dogs sires and dams are registered with multiple regristries if there papers are correct they come from great lines, championship lines, I just don't trust papers therefore never registered my dogs. Plus with me starting my breeding with a "mixed" bitch of to two Pitbull lines...that would be unethical in my opinion. My dogs will be marketed as Pitbulls in the truest sense of the term. I will be keeping and maintaining my own records. I may register with the American Dog Registry and a pedigree data base just for the sake of organization but my dogs will labeled as what they are, no swindling this way.

I'm a dogman, I know dogs, and after much research I have a much greater understanding of genetics than when I was a BYB looking to make a buck. That's how I reached uniformity at least as far as color, just gotta wait to see if the method i've developed will produce the other qualities and traits i'm looking for. It's not about money at all. One thing about genetics is that what was once there before is still there now... considering the time frame of the development of this breed. That's why lines are preserved to maintain a certain type. A line of dog is in no way a purebred dog though...within Pitbulls.

As far as flack from anyone that's just fine I've been around and have owned dogs 25+ years plus have put in countless hours of research and studying, hands on and book...worked with a veterinarian as well who will also handle health issues I can't myself, so my knowledge is just O.K. and my dogs will be very healthy.

As far as standards mine are pretty high which is why I haven't done any breeding in years and have turned down countless offers to those wanting to mate with either of my dogs. I have a breeding program in place, I do not beleive in co-owning and I have a thourough contract and yes most of my dogs are already placed, only a select few will be placed in tact for my lack of trust. I will accept any pup/dog back as a matter of fact I look forward to that aspect of breeding. I will humanely cull if necessary.

I appreciate the concern keep an eye on my posts for dogs to come. I'm in it to enrich the Pitbull by developing my own variation that will be able to stand alone or be able to be used as an outcross. If money comes cool, if not I'm just fine with my contribution to this superb being of dog.


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

Blossom01 said:


> Closharris said:
> 
> 
> > (FYI, I'm establishing a line not trying to preserve someone else's BS,
> ...


That is my primary goal (#3), hoping all else falls in place , but that's not my only goal which is why I've taken a considerable amount of time to do my homework and study my dogs and there pedigree. All sires and dams are "pedigree" from great stock if the papers are correct.

Only time will tell though.

My male's sire is brindle/white Irish markings and dam is about 60/40 brindle/white both black noses. Black noses throughout pedigree. He was the only red/white rednose and looks nothing like his siblings.

Female sire is blue brindle and the dam is pure staff bull, pretty much all brindle black nose in her pedigree.

Looking forward to any insight. Thanks.


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

BCdogs said:


> Honestly, I didn't have the energy to really respond to this last night, but now that I do, there are a lot of issues with your plan that I think you should consider.
> 
> First, what's the point of health testing AFTER you've already bred your dogs? The whole purpose is to ensure that your stock is free of hereditary health issues before breeding, to produce the healthiest pups possible. Health testing afterwards just defeats the purpose. If it's an issue of the cost, then you have even bigger problems, because a whole little of unhealthy dogs is going to cost you a lot more than health testing two, not to mention if you ever have some sort of emergency with any of them or the bitch while whelping. You'd think you would have learned after having a whole litter that was dysplastic. Our fellow mod Joe can attest to just how difficult that makes life for a young, energetic dog.
> 
> ...


In the pitbull lines technically there is no such thing as "purebred" when these dogs were first developed and especially when they came to America these dogs were crossed with pitbull type dogs from different areas of Europe as well as some stock that was probably already in America, thus the name American Pitbull Terrier, because it was developed amongst many different types of dogs. As far as being "purists" and flack that fine, I like to educate so that's cool with me. Part of joining was me wanting to educate the misinformed. What most dog owners are doing is maintaining a line of mixed dogs put together by dogmen of old labeled as APBT, your papers only go back as far as whenever whoever established the line and even moreso that was before labels were put on by "clubs" of different strains (types) of Pit dogs. Many of the "pure" dogs today (not all) are garbage due to breeders and owners trying to maintain a title and not knowing how to breed or hanging papers which is rampant. Even with dogs of old. That is why I judge the dog not words on paper. Most papers are like money, not worth the paper its printed on. Both of my dogs sires and dams are registered with multiple regristries if there papers are correct they come from great lines, championship lines, I just don't trust papers therefore never registered my dogs. Plus with me starting my breeding with a "mixed" bitch of to two Pitbull lines...that would be unethical in my opinion. My dogs will be marketed as Pitbulls in the truest sense of the term. I will be keeping and maintaining my own records. I may register with the American Dog Registry and a pedigree data base just for the sake of organization but my dogs will labeled as what they are, no swindling this way. I'm a dogman, I know dogs, and after much research I have a much greater understanding of genetics than when I was a BYB looking to make a buck. That's how I reached uniformity at least as far as color, just gotta wait to see if the method i've developed will produce the other qualities and traits i'm looking for. It's not about money at all. One thing about genetics is that what was once there before is still there now... considering the time frame of the development of this breed. That's why lines are preserved to maintain a certain type. A line of dog is in no way a purebred dog though...within Pitbulls. As far as flack from anyone that's just fine I've been around and have owned dogs 25+ years plus have put in countless hours of research and studying, hands on and book...worked with a veterinarian as well who will also handle health issues I can't myself, so my knowledge is just O.K. and my dogs will be very healthy. As far as standards mine are pretty high which is why I haven't done any breeding in years and have turned down countless offers to those wanting to mate with either of my dogs. I have a breeding program in place, I do not beleive in co-owning and I have a thourough contract and yes most of my dogs are already placed, only a select few will be placed in tact for my lack of trust. I will accept any pup/dog back as a matter of fact I look forward to that aspect of breeding. I will humanely cull if necessary. I appreciate the concern keep an eye on my posts for dogs to come. I'm in it to enrich the Pitbull by developing my own variation that will be able to stand alone or be able to be used as an outcross. If money comes cool, if not I'm just fine with my contribution to this superb being of dog.


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

BCdogs said:


> Honestly, I didn't have the energy to really respond to this last night, but now that I do, there are a lot of issues with your plan that I think you should consider.
> 
> First, what's the point of health testing AFTER you've already bred your dogs? The whole purpose is to ensure that your stock is free of hereditary health issues before breeding, to produce the healthiest pups possible. Health testing afterwards just defeats the purpose. If it's an issue of the cost, then you have even bigger problems, because a whole little of unhealthy dogs is going to cost you a lot more than health testing two, not to mention if you ever have some sort of emergency with any of them or the bitch while whelping. You'd think you would have learned after having a whole litter that was dysplastic. Our fellow mod Joe can attest to just how difficult that makes life for a young, energetic dog.
> 
> ...


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

BCdogs said:


> Honestly, I didn't have the energy to really respond to this last night, but now that I do, there are a lot of issues with your plan that I think you should consider.
> 
> First, what's the point of health testing AFTER you've already bred your dogs? The whole purpose is to ensure that your stock is free of hereditary health issues before breeding, to produce the healthiest pups possible. Health testing afterwards just defeats the purpose. If it's an issue of the cost, then you have even bigger problems, because a whole little of unhealthy dogs is going to cost you a lot more than health testing two, not to mention if you ever have some sort of emergency with any of them or the bitch while whelping. You'd think you would have learned after having a whole litter that was dysplastic. Our fellow mod Joe can attest to just how difficult that makes life for a young, energetic dog.
> 
> ...


Assumptions are dangerous my friend, but thanks for the advice.

No struggle, no progress. Keep doing the same stuff, no progress. So maintain your line or lines of dogs you tend to favor, which are also mutts. Not my fault you choose to like "indescriminatly human friendly dogs". Which probably have an imbalance of terrier to bulldog ratio. Those weren't the only dogs used and bred, Tudor's dogs for example, (hint, hint). As a real dog person knows a handler knows how to handle his dog without getting bit or it biting someone else.

The dogs I'm working with have excellent pedigree and come from a utility line, great all around sound dogs. Only doing the genetic testing for my own reassurance.

Not stuck on papers cause I don't trust them, other than what I produce or see produced with my own eyes.

I've never had a "dysplactic" dog, I did however have one where dysplasia was an issue, three puppies to be exact. The Bitch was a horrible mom killed two. The one I kept was stolen as a pup. The bitch was also stolen and the father got hit by a car about a week after I returned him to his owner. So I guess natural selection took care of that issue for me.

I didn't do any homework to be honest it wasn't an accidental mating where I was keeping a dog for a friend, my girl went into heat, he broke out of his kennel and banged her, one stick but hey it happened. The point of me mentioning it was to express one of the situations involving dogs i've learned from. That was about 5 years ago, mating before that was about 3 years prior so about 8 years since i've actually selected my own stock to breed.

I've had plenty of time to learn and think things through.

I have a program set and have done my research including studying and working the male I have for the last 3 years and the female for the last year. Parents and generations before come from proven stock in different areas of work dirty and clean.

I have a method and a plan. So far so good just gotta see how these dogs check out as they grow. As any good breeder trying to produce a good product for the likes of pitbull people knows, only time will tell.

As a good dog man unknown told me, some people never hit the lottery others get lucky. If your in it to win it never quit, game dogs must have game stewards that understand the dog and never quit on them cause your gonna come across a lot of BS dealing with the dogs but mostly the people.

To our fellow mod Joe take good care of that doggie bad hips and all. I'm sure he's of some past stock from some dog man that's hightly touted or dog man wannabe that were only in it for a buck and stuck on stupid trying to prove they had the best and only real pitbull. I've been there and that was my first mistake.

And to address the cost issue, yeah money is a factor, lucky for me I've have some pretty good training handling medical issues and one of my mentors is a veterinarian twice my senior. No kids, wife, got a little land, a couple of runs to put together. Just gotta make it work. It's a labor of love really.

If you have any issues with your dogs I may be able to help. I'm trying to better the breed not condemn it to damnation with a load of ignorance, hearsay non-versatile dogs. I have actual handling and working experience and this is my passion. Yeah I've messed up before but who hasn't, had to start somewhere.

Peace


----------



## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

So what's the point of asking for comments, critiques, and suggestions if you've got it all figured out?


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

BCdogs said:


> So what's the point of asking for comments, critiques, and suggestions if you've got it all figured out?


I figure I can always learn something new if it new. Opening the door to share what I know and am seeking information I may not already know, not biased opions.

Life is a journey of learning IMO and mines happens to revolve around these dogs. Want to be a good breeder of a reputable line, that's all.


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

Blossom01 said:


> Number one suggestion. Don't expect anything constructive to come from this board regarding this subject!
> 
> Number two: I personally am not against breed crossing -- there are some interesting sites regarding this subject (when it's appropriate, plans, goals etc) -- totally outside this board's scope. I will PM you.
> 
> Number 3: l personally would not have started with (what appear to be) 2 dilute dogs. You are just breeding yourself into a corner regarding color/pigment. Unless that is a primary goal.....


Number 1: People are expressing their concerns about this breeding....and I agree. OP asked.......so he received. Constructive? LOL, take this thread over to Game Dog and see how you do. Those who have responded have been constructive IMO.

Number 2: This board's scope? Is this GoMixedbreed.com? Sounds like YOU are on the wrong site.

Number 3: Are we actually talking about breeding for color? Once again, YOU are on the wrong site...that is if color, mixed breeding, etc is your interest.

I realize I am being an *sshole toward you, but your attitude needed adjusting. No one put a gun to your head to join this site.


----------



## jttar (Jan 31, 2013)

Blossom01 said:


> Number one suggestion. Don't expect anything constructive to come from this board regarding this subject!
> 
> Number two: I personally am not against breed crossing -- there are some interesting sites regarding this subject (when it's appropriate, plans, goals etc) -- totally outside this board's scope. I will PM you.
> 
> Number 3: l personally would not have started with (what appear to be) 2 dilute dogs. You are just breeding yourself into a corner regarding color/pigment. Unless that is a primary goal.....


You have been warned before about intentional "pot stirring" on this forum. Obviously, you disagree with "this board" ability to have constructive input on this subject and feel that everyone else is wrong and you are correct. You state that you are not against breed crossing and know of interesting sites that are "totally outside of this board's scope". If you feel this way then PLEASE, go gift them with all your fantastic knowledge that is beyond our scope of comprehension. Run don't walk. 
This is not a dialog to open a discussion but rather a warning that I consider your comments inflammatory and are neither "constructive or in the scope of this board".

jttar


----------



## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

jttar said:


> You have been warned before about intentional "pot stirring" on this forum. Obviously, you disagree with "this board" ability to have constructive input on this subject and feel that everyone else is wrong and you are correct. You state that you are not against breed crossing and know of interesting sites that are "totally outside of this board's scope". If you feel this way then PLEASE, go gift them with all your fantastic knowledge that is beyond our scope of comprehension. Run don't walk.
> This is not a dialog to open a discussion but rather a warning that I consider your comments inflammatory and are neither "constructive or in the scope of this board".
> 
> jttar


:thumbsup:


----------



## Pitlover101 (Apr 5, 2016)

jttar said:


> You have been warned before about intentional "pot stirring" on this forum. Obviously, you disagree with "this board" ability to have constructive input on this subject and feel that everyone else is wrong and you are correct. You state that you are not against breed crossing and know of interesting sites that are "totally outside of this board's scope". If you feel this way then PLEASE, go gift them with all your fantastic knowledge that is beyond our scope of comprehension. Run don't walk.
> This is not a dialog to open a discussion but rather a warning that I consider your comments inflammatory and are neither "constructive or in the scope of this board".
> 
> jttar


If this forum allowed for me to upvote posts, I would upvote this one a million times! :clap:


----------



## Blossom01 (Nov 8, 2014)

jttar said:


> You have been warned before about intentional "pot stirring" on this forum. Obviously, you disagree with "this board" ability to have constructive input on this subject and feel that everyone else is wrong and you are correct. You state that you are not against breed crossing and know of interesting sites that are "totally outside of this board's scope". If you feel this way then PLEASE, go gift them with all your fantastic knowledge that is beyond our scope of comprehension. Run don't walk.
> This is not a dialog to open a discussion but rather a warning that I consider your comments inflammatory and are neither "constructive or in the scope of this board".
> 
> jttar


yeah, I said the part about nothing constructive will come from this board on breeding because it's been expressed more than once that the board is essentially anti-breeding.

As for the the cross-breeding thing, (and after what I see the OP has further written, it's not what he's wanting either.) the subject as I mention it is quite different. I was talking about a very, very specific topic of discussion that's quite off-topic for this board. I should have never mentioned it as it goes far beyond breeding mutts. And is not what the OP is interested in either.

I didn't mean to stir the pot, but my mentioning something which really has no place on THIS board but does have lots of discussion elsewhere -- was out of place no doubt about it. I do regret that.


----------



## Blossom01 (Nov 8, 2014)

Saint Francis said:


> Number 1: People are expressing their concerns about this breeding....and I agree. OP asked.......so he received. Constructive? LOL, take this thread over to Game Dog and see how you do. Those who have responded have been constructive IMO.


I got carried away with the OPs breeding of different breeds and went with that part. There ARE sites that discuss this, but after reading further from the OP, it is not what he is after either. It should not have been mentioned on this board. I agree with many of the concerns that others have mentioned about the breeding.



Saint Francis said:


> Number 3: Are we actually talking about breeding for color?


I thought I WAS concerned about the color? Didn't I ask if the two dogs were dilutes and that was a concern. Now he says that's what he wants; but I won't even go into what my answer about THAT was going to be!... Okay, I will -- OP, you are making a mistake breeding for that; not because I don't LIKE them, but because pigment is protective and can lead to other problems especially if you want a working dog!

Anyway, the OP has pretty much lost me anyway.


----------



## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

I don't find this forum to be anti-breeder at all. I think I can speak for most when I say we're just anti-irresponsible breeder. I'm also not against breeding crosses either, but they do have to serve a purpose and be bred ethically to be justified, IMO. Working/sporting mixes that are health tested and created with a specific goal in mind are one thing, but creating more pet quality mutts when the shelters are full of them is just not okay.


----------



## ThaLadyPit (Oct 12, 2008)

To the OP... I won't go back and quote, but you state you're breeding for color and "hoping" all else follows. That right there my friend shows that you have learned absolutely nothing during your studies and still have the BYB mindset. Like or not. 

You might register with ADR? Hmm... From what I've seen, and I could be wrong, but the ADR looks to be just like most of the other under-funded registries out there. Long as you got the money, they'll register. 

Now, as for mine and others' comments about using mixed breed dogs, you yourself state in your intro that you're using an "XXL Pit/Staffordshire Bull Terrier cross". That right there screams BYB to me as well because there's no such thing as an XXL Pit. Maybe an XXL Bully. Maybe you should follow the advice of others and seek out a genuine mentor in the game and take time to learn how it's done.

Oh, and might I add that the beginning of your response looks like it's been copy and pasted from other sites, and would be the typical response of a troll who states they're open for feedback, and doesn't like what responses actually come.

Best of luck in your endeavors, but please cull hard because we really don't need anymore worthless bull-bred mutts added to the population.


----------



## Blossom01 (Nov 8, 2014)

jttar said:


> You have been warned before about intentional "pot stirring" on this forum. Obviously, you disagree with "this board" ability to have constructive input on this subject and feel that everyone else is wrong and you are correct. You state that you are not against breed crossing and know of interesting sites that are "totally outside of this board's scope". If you feel this way then PLEASE, go gift them with all your fantastic knowledge that is beyond our scope of comprehension. Run don't walk.
> This is not a dialog to open a discussion but rather a warning that I consider your comments inflammatory and are neither "constructive or in the scope of this board".
> 
> jttar


............


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

Lol, you guys and girls are hilarious!!! I know my dogs history. I'm even going as far as to keeping record of gene markers as far as looks and type. Yeah I am breeding for color as well as temperment, athletism, bite, confirmation and most importantly health. i'm establishing a distinct type that throws the same type consistently. 

I'm establishing a line that consists of Buckskin/Red Blacknose and Dark Brindle working dogs. Not for the diluted colors of the parents which actually aren't dilutes but types of the breed unto themselves, it just so happens that black is dominant which is a gene both parents carry heavily.

I started with these dogs because of their pedigree not their colors and the pedigrees threw true.

As far as the XXL Bully he is a Pitbull registered as Pitbull and a Bully. His papers go back far before there was even a registry for Bullies. So basically the mom is a large Pitbull/Staffordshire Bull Terrier cross. The same mating that established the lines of today.

BYB, not even close...anymore lol. Soon I will be an authorized licensed registered breeder with an incorporated kennel. Not that that means anything now days, but some don't know fools gold from gold.

Update: All of the pups are placed to loving, caring carefully screened homes where i can keep tabs on them and they aren't even 3 weeks yet. The pups are doing great! 

What is the purpose of this forum if it's not to discuss the breed??? And why are people on here that know nothing of breed??? And why do people pick what they deem negative for the sake of argument???

I suggest googling or picking up a book/magazine written before 1990. I also suggest picking up a biology book and learning about genetics.

I'm just trying to teach you all something about something you know nothing about. "Back to Breeding" was just the hook...pretty good, huh? Lol

Also I have joined Game Dogs site as well. And FYI I do not condone or support illegal sport neither will any of my dogs be used for those purposes as far as I know as the line becomes more established and out of my reach.


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

And to think, I was going to pay to support this site because I love the breed that much and thought this site was about education and that people may have been on here that wanted to learn about what they "claim" to love.


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

Babies Update


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

Aren't they the cutest little things?


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

What are the positives and negatives you people see in the dogs you own? 

What would you like to see as the breed progresses?


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

As far as papers my dams dam is a dual registered APBT/Staffordshire Bull Terrier and her sire is a dual registered APBT/American Bully Purple Ribbon champ in both rings. 

My sires damn is dual registered as APBT/Staffordshire Terrier and so is his sire. 

There are grand champs (old school) and purple ribbon champs throughout the pedigrees. 

They have many relatives and some unknowns through several generations from around the time the UKC was established and through the 70's until the dogs were spread out i'm assuming. 

I refuse to share the ingredients because I'm sure i've put together an awesome mix and don't want to be copycated. 

I joined this forum seeking knowledge as well as share mines and to share these dogs as I progress. Arrogance is of the ignorant. 

I have no more to say as far as defending myself from the senseless but I will continue to share posts and updates of my dogs/puppies as they grow...if i'm not banned.


----------



## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

Closharris said:


> As far as papers my dams dam is a dual registered APBT/Staffordshire Bull Terrier and her sire is a dual registered APBT/American Bully Purple Ribbon champ in both rings.
> 
> My sires damn is dual registered as APBT/Staffordshire Terrier and so is his sire.
> 
> ...


Purple Ribbon just means 4 generations of documented pedigrees. It's not a "champion" title. Also, mixing breeds is not bettering a breed. It's making mutts. AmStaffs, Staffy Bulls, Am Bullies, and APBT are all different breeds.

Perhaps you should read more and pop off less.


----------



## Closharris (May 10, 2016)

EckoMac said:


> Closharris said:
> 
> 
> > As far as papers my dams dam is a dual registered APBT/Staffordshire Bull Terrier and her sire is a dual registered APBT/American Bully Purple Ribbon champ in both rings.
> ...


I'm not popping off just educating. Why are you so offended???

Perhaps you should do more research as to how the names were given to the breed. There are different lines within the breed but damn near any pit bull you come across carries the genetics of its ancestors.

They are all the same dog. STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER was a name given by the AKC to try to get away from the PIT in APBT and so that APBT's could be registered through AKC without the negative sterotype.

And anyone that knows the history knows European terrier (STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER) Pitbull type dogs were imported from England/Ireland and crossed with APBT's as a matter of fact the original dogs came here with migrants from Europe (i'd also like to believe that those dogs were crossed with dogs that were already here...I could be wrong on that though).

Also anyone that knows the said history of Bullies knows they were created using larger body/head type APBT's and STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIERS as they are in essence the same breed bred for different purposes. (I believe it is a fact that many of the Bullies do have bulldog in them and from what I can tell from my dams dad pedigree and pics of his relatives i'm pretty certain I chose a line where that didn't occur.)

Also if you've done your research it's been stated by several dog men that they would register their dogs according to type. If the Pup/dog didn't meet AKC standards as far as show ring quality or it showed it had fighting instinct it was papered under UKC. If it didn't have that instinct and did look AKC show quality they were papered AKC. SOME HAD BOTH QUALITIES AND WERE DUAL REGISTERED.

And I know what Purple Ribbon means, I was just stating they were Purple Ribbon Champs, GC's too as well. Next time i'll be more precise when I type and add an AND or Slash in between.


----------



## Massivespl (Dec 15, 2015)

Those pictures on the first page are so Sad. Chained up, dirty small dog houses. Leaves on the ground that look like they been there for over a year. I treat my dogs like family. They have never been chained up in an environment like that!


----------



## EckoMac (Aug 25, 2010)

Closharris said:


> I'm not popping off just educating. Why are you so offended???
> 
> Perhaps you should do more research as to how the names were given to the breed. There are different lines within the breed but damn near any pit bull you come across carries the genetics of its ancestors.
> 
> ...


The uneducated should never try to educate. I'm not offended by your statements. I'm offended by you mixing breeds and calling them APBTs when they are so clearly not. 
Yes the Amstaff comes from the APBT, but todays AmStaff is a different breed. It was not bred for gameness, it was bred for the show ring and conformation. The American PIT Bull Terrier was not bred for conformation and shows. It is no longer used for fighting in the pit, but it's athleticism is still celebrated in ADBA events. What was done in the past to create the APBT does not reflect on the other breeds that started with the APBT, because they were bred away from the purpose/standard for the APBT. Would you say the Malinois is the same as the German Shepherd? What about the Boxer and English Mastiff?

You knowingly bred two different breeds together and still want to call it a PIT bull. That makes you part of the problem. 
You can say they are all the same breed until you are blue in the face and pass out. But the reality of it is, they are no longer the same breed. Any of these individual breeds today, regardless of what dogs are listed 15-20 generations back are still just the individual breed. When you breed away from purpose/standard, you no longer have that breed.

American Bullies started as a hot mess. In many instances they still are. The ABKC is trying to get it straightened out a little bit at a time. They were bred so far away from purpose/standard for both the APBT and the AmStaff that only the uneducated would involve them in a breeding program for APBTs.

I own and have read ALL of Stratton's books on the APBT. Maybe you should hit a library and see what you can learn.


----------



## HeatherSen (Dec 7, 2015)

I don't know why you would breed a mixed breed dog. That is what the shelter is full of. I will probably always have shelter dogs, as I just want a pet. 

I understand breeding for a purebred papered dog. Some people like a specific breed and as long as those breeders have homes for their puppies, I have no problem with it. 

To breed mixed breed dogs just for money sounds so irresponsible and is why the shelters are full of "pitbulls" who live a sad life until they are eutbinized. I'm sure my dog was a result of a backyard breeder who sold a dog and once that doh was no longer a cute little puppy, he was no longer wanted.


----------



## BCdogs (May 30, 2014)

EckoMac is hitting the nail on the head. You think you know it all but your ignorance shows in every post. Like I've already said, you need to go back to the books before breeding.


----------



## Indie (Sep 29, 2010)

It appears your cup of knowledge is already full.


----------



## Rudy4747 (Nov 29, 2009)

I would really urge you to talk with some breed Judges and Reps. You will see that while yes all these breeds were once one. When the AKC was started was in the early 1900 There for e time and purpose have separated the breeds in significant ways. So by talking to Registry Reps you will see that the Registries while too late. They are trying to right these wrong by further separating the breeds.

So funny enough, you say back to breeding in since you are indeed going back. Undoing the giant mistake they have desperately been trying to fix over the last two or three years. With the two big registries in APBT recognizing and separating the American bully.


----------

