# Two black nosed dogs threw a rednose... your thoughts or opinions??



## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Well, two black nosed dogs threw 1 red nosed pup out of a litter of 5. I was wondering what everyones thoughts on that is. As I know it the rednose is a recessive gene within the strain that is OFRN. I was wondering if because of throwbacks and all what that may mean for the 1 rednose pup..

where ya at TX Reddog??


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

A light brown or red nose is (bb), or homozygous recessive. Being homozygous recessive, both parents must contribute one recessive (b) gene to the offspring to produce the red nose. When breeding two dogs with the (bb) genotype, the only resulting combination in the pups would be ( bb) or red nose.

Just because both parents are "black nosed" doesn't mean its impossible to throw a different colored nose, its simple. So long as parents have the genes it can be thrown nothing more, nothing less..Its just a nose.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

Definatly possible I would be worried if two reds threw a black lol


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

"Black nose" indicates that the genotype is (BB) or (Bb), both which would be expressed as black nose because of the dominance of the (B) allele.. If that sheds more light for you paired with my other post.

Basically both of your dogs are (Bb), if you had 4 out of 5 dogs come out with black noses its because (B) is dominate, your puppy with the red nose just so happened to (bb)


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

does the just so happens to be happen often???

thanks for the knowledge, im not quite into the whole dna stuff


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> does the just so happens to be happen often???
> 
> thanks for the knowledge, im not quite into the whole dna stuff


I couldn't put a percentage on it so i really wouldnt know how to explain the frequency of which it happens. I'd say it happens on a consistent level, someone who is a breeder may be able to give you something more solid in terms of an exact answer. I wouldn't call it "rare" though.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

What would you say to a litter of entirely red nosed pups from two black nosed dogs??


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## fishinrob (Apr 14, 2010)

Yes it is common, unless they are super line bred and you know of no recessive genes showing up in the last 7 generations. There are so many scatter bred dogs out there that it is pretty common.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> What would you say to a litter of entirely red nosed pups from two black nosed dogs??


Its all by chance, in order for there to be even 1 from black they have to be carriers. So its all chance as to what the out come would be. Id say its pretty unlikely (not impossible) for the entire litter just because the (B) gene is dominate but doesn't mean it cant happen.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

That could happen but that would be like flipping a coin 20x's and gettting heads everysingle time. No very likely.


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

KM did a great job on this thread!!

I've had it happen quite alot... I figure my current breedings (tan with black masks and black noses) could produce a few red rednoses and even black dogs..lol The sire of both the dogs being bred is a red rednose, and the dam on the bottom is a black dog, with the dam on the top being off a red rednose, and a black bitch..lol


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

NOT surprised.. rednose dogs come from line bred and inbred black nose dogs .. 

what would surprise me would be a black nose dog popping up out of pure red nosed pedigreed dogs .. it happens from time to time but not often as black nose dogs bred together produce red nosed dogs. I didnt have pure OFRN I did have pure red nose dogs and they originate with black nose dogs, but I produced nothing but red noses for many years from that sort of thing. 

IMO i like red nosed dogs that spawn from to superb black nose dogs. even if Mr. Lou Colby (RIP) was right and red nosed dogs are fight crazy, and thus why they're not fond of them in the colby lines, simple enough. I still love em red rednoses though.

I've gotten into the whole chromosome and locust theories before concerning the OFRN.. sure its on here.


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

Hmm not so much fight crazy, in my opinion, but tend to be a little light in the brains department (red nose dogs)...at least in my experience.... lol


Edward is a chocolate rednose....he got trapped in the covers on the bed the other day, so wrapped up all he could do was wag his tail.... yeah yeah I rescued him after I stopped laughing..lmao


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> what would surprise me would be a black nose dog popping up out of pure red nosed pedigreed dogs .. it happens from time to time but not often as black nose dogs bred together produce red nosed dogs.


I know someone who does genetic research for a living who says its impossible for two rednose dogs to produce black pigment. Someone came on a forum years back promoting their litter off two rednose parents that produced black brindle babies. When challenged to DNA-profile that litter -- the suggestion was that the neighbor's Lab must've gotten a piece -- the people disappeared and never took that challenge. It gets me curious when I read stuff like this.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Good thread.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

LadyRampage said:


> Hmm not so much fight crazy, in my opinion, but tend to be a little light in the brains department (red nose dogs)...at least in my experience.... lol
> 
> Edward is a chocolate rednose....he got trapped in the covers on the bed the other day, so wrapped up all he could do was wag his tail.... yeah yeah I rescued him after I stopped laughing..lmao


LOL. So I can blame Kane's dumb dog moments on his nose?

OP, both of Kane's parents had black noses. Obviously they both carried the recessive gene for red noses. The litter was about 3/4s give or take a couple pups for black noses vs. red noses.


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## CaLi 2 B.C. (Dec 4, 2010)

Loki (Red rednose) X pepper (black blacknose) Produced 2 red,2 blue,3 black,1 champagne and 2 bluefawn pups.Does that make any sense? LOL


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

Yes two black nosed dogs can produce a red nosed dog.
But NO, TWO RED NOSED DOGS CANNOT PRODUCE A BLACK NOSED DOG....

Here's a simple way to look at it:
When you have two red nosed dogs, and breed them, it's like taking all the black cards out of the deck.
No matter how they are shuffled, you're gonna get a red card. Period.
Unless....some shysty SOB slid some cards under the table and cheated the deck.

With two black nosed dogs, that have red nosed dogs in the pedigree, it's like having all the black cards, then adding a only one suit of red cards.
Since the black cards outnumber the red cards, most likely black will come out (being the dominant color).
However, being red is in the deck, though at a lesser degree, it is possible to produce a red.

BTW bahamutt99, that's a great piece of advice for people to follow...make those who claim it prove it!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

It is genetically IMPOSSIBLE for 2 red nosed dogs to produce a black nosed dog and if someone says it is or tries to sell you a black dog out of two red parents you better run like hell. There are plenty of books written by Genetic Experts who explain all of these things in great detail I get headaches after reading up on genetics but anyone who is breeding or just someone who wants to understand their dogs genetics should certainly pick up a book about genetics and read it.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Dosia had one litter mate that was chocolate with a deep red/chocolate nose, and both their parents are black. Looking back in the parents peds they both have quite a few red dogs in their history so it makes sense that one or two would pop out every once in a while


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

One more thing people should know: the term "chocolate" is a new term, usually used by ametuers to describe the color of OFRN dogs.

Point: if it's new, it isn't old; and if it isn't old, it isn't an Old Family Red Nose strain dog.
That is why dogs may have OFRN in their peds, but if they come out any color but red, 
of any shade, light/dark, or brindle, with or without white, it cannot be classified an OFRN dog.

But this is another topic for another day............


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

awww.... sooo I should consider Edward a light red rednose?? He is almost a buckskin color with a darker mask and a light red nose... although I don't consider him in any way to be OFRN


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

LadyRampage said:


> awww.... sooo I should consider Edward a light red rednose?? He is almost a buckskin color with a darker mask and a light red nose... although I don't consider him in any way to be OFRN


Yes, that would be correct. :clap: Buckskin is also a generic term for color, but, IMO, it sure beats the "chocolate" color!:hammer:


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

> Unless....some shysty SOB slid some cards under the table and cheated the deck.


Bahaha Love it


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Eagle said:


> Point: if it's new, it isn't old; and if it isn't old, it isn't an Old Family Red Nose strain dog.
> That is why dogs may have OFRN in their peds, but if they come out any color but red,
> of any shade, light/dark, or brindle, with or without white, it cannot be classified an OFRN dog.
> 
> But this is another topic for another day............


 Ha ha NICE!!! I LOVE THIS POST 
Thanks everyone for your input. It has answered some questions and opened a few doors!

Eagle... I would love to hear that topic from you one day!!!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

I've only seen it once and didnt understand it; as for myself from hooch red nosed sired by red nose tant dog and damseld by rednose lightner/tonka/whopper dog. .. I bred him to a lightner dog with black nose from the stock as his mamma and kept a black nosed bitch took her back to Hooch and got one rednose female; kept the red nose bitch took her to sarona/ironline/larsaan dog .. Took hooch to the daughter of that, and didnt SEE ONE BLACK NOSE DOG.. unless one parent was a blacknose dog; then took a daughter of that to Hoagie and got all black nosed dogs except 2; red red dog and red brindle dog. However when I bred a Black nose dog to that first red nose daughter I kept from Hooch, to a black nosed dog sired by a red nosed dog to a black nosed half sister with a pink/black nose female.. Buddy X Princess gave up all reds except for 2 black noses and I kept one, Yager. Took her back to Hooch as well, and it was mostly black noses.. .. .. I now have two black nose dogs from 10yrs of majority red nosed dogs. Turk and his auntcousin Libra hopefully will continue the hooch blood bulldogs and from two black nose dogs will have half red nosed dogs. Both dogs are stacked red nosed with black nose dogs here and there.. but when they come together~

So yeah.. it pecular indeed when I look back; it was a country yard so who knows maybe another sire locked up without knowing.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

I think that there is something about a "liver" coloured nose will throw a black? Don't quote me on that but I'm sure I've read that somewhere


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

CaLi 2 B.C. said:


> Loki (Red rednose) X pepper (black blacknose) Produced 2 red,2 blue,3 black,1 champagne and 2 bluefawn pups.Does that make any sense? LOL


It does considering blue comes from black and champagne and blue fawn are further dilutes... and being scatterbred.


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

bahamutt99 said:


> I know someone who does genetic research for a living who says its impossible for two rednose dogs to produce black pigment. Someone came on a forum years back promoting their litter off two rednose parents that produced black brindle babies. When challenged to DNA-profile that litter -- the suggestion was that the neighbor's Lab must've gotten a piece -- the people disappeared and never took that challenge. It gets me curious when I read stuff like this.


:goodpost: It is not possible for 2 red nosed dog to throw black nosed dog. However for 2 black nosed dogs they can throw both blue or red nose no issues as all they have to do is have a carrier on each side. When a puppy gets the recessive gene from both parents you get a visible Red Nose. If only 1 recessive gene is received the dog is then just a red nose carrier but will not have a red nose.

Black is a dominate gene. If the dog has a recessive from both side to show a recessive color ( blue/red) it is not going to throw black nosed puppies unless bred to a black nosed dog were the dominate gene comes into play


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

Edward may be politically correct to say light red rednose but I'm still gonna call him a chocolate rednose...and I've had these dogs for 15 years....he's looks like warm milk chocolate with the gooey brain to match..lmao


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

As the old Zen master says: Only a living fish can swim against the current.:flush:


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

If Edward is the one I'm thinking of, I always thought of him as like a fawn/bucksin rednose. I'll have to double check and make sure I'm thinking of the right dog.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Eagle said:


> One more thing people should know: the term "chocolate" is a new term, usually used by ametuers to describe the color of OFRN dogs.
> 
> Point: if it's new, it isn't old; and if it isn't old, it isn't an Old Family Red Nose strain dog.
> That is why dogs may have OFRN in their peds, but if they come out any color but red,
> ...


But chocolate is an acceptable color in the ADBA. Recently my friend had a litter of pups and one is light colored like what people call champagne but I've been told she'd be reg as a light choc since champagne is pretty much a made up term.



Firehazard said:


> I've only seen it once and didnt understand it; as for myself from hooch red nosed sired by red nose tant dog and damseld by rednose lightner/tonka/whopper dog. .. I bred him to a lightner dog with black nose from the stock as his mamma and kept a black nosed bitch took her back to Hooch and got one rednose female; kept the red nose bitch took her to sarona/ironline/larsaan dog .. Took hooch to the daughter of that, and didnt SEE ONE BLACK NOSE DOG.. unless one parent was a blacknose dog; then took a daughter of that to Hoagie and got all black nosed dogs except 2; red red dog and red brindle dog. However when I bred a Black nose dog to that first red nose daughter I kept from Hooch, to a black nosed dog sired by a red nosed dog to a black nosed half sister with a pink/black nose female.. Buddy X Princess gave up all reds except for 2 black noses and I kept one, Yager. Took her back to Hooch as well, and it was mostly black noses.. .. .. I now have two black nose dogs from 10yrs of majority red nosed dogs. Turk and his auntcousin Libra hopefully will continue the hooch blood bulldogs and from two black nose dogs will have half red nosed dogs. Both dogs are stacked red nosed with black nose dogs here and there.. but when they come together~
> 
> So yeah.. it pecular indeed when I look back; it was a country yard so who knows maybe another sire locked up without knowing.


HUH????!!!!!!!!!!!??!?!?!?!??!!?!? hahah That was CONFUSING!


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## bahamutt99 (May 14, 2008)

Chocolate, champagne. Now we just need to call an orange dog "cheese" color and we'll have a dope snack platter.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

AP13 grace had 4 black nosed puppies
Shes Black coming from a mother blacknose but father red
Evo has a rednose and so do generations back on him.

only 2 out of 6 came out rednosed. im confused i hate genetics lol


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

MISSAPBT said:


> AP13 grace had 4 black nosed puppies
> Shes Black coming from a mother blacknose but father red
> Evo has a rednose and so do generations back on him.
> 
> only 2 out of 6 came out rednosed. im confused i hate genetics lol


The 2 red nosed puppies got the recessive Gene from both sides as your Black female is a red nosed carrier.

Evo has a red nose so of course he is a carrier and will pass 1 rednosed gene to each puppy. Your black nosed female can pass 1 black gene OR 1 red gene as she is a carrier.

When those 2 puppies got a red from both sides you get rednosed puppies. The ones that only got one red were over ridden by the dominate gene they got.


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## MISSAPBT (May 10, 2009)

OOOh I see, thank you for explaining!


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## lunchbox'spoppa (Jul 17, 2011)

I have heard of two black noses throwing red nose pups i have seen it my self 3 or 4 times.


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

But chocolate is an acceptable color in the ADBA. Recently my friend had a litter of pups and one is light colored like what people call champagne but I've been told she'd be reg as a light choc since champagne is pretty much a made up term. (She's Got Heart...)

The ADBA was once a registry used exclusively for the APBT. But over the years people began to infiltrate the ranks of the more traditionaly minded individuals who were fully aware of the history of the APBT, and the proper terminolgy. And once the inner circle of a core group or fraternity is penetrated, schism always follows. I believe this is what happened, and it has reached the point of no return. 

Everyone has their own opinion, and they will follow the wave of current thought anyway, so it's sort of useless to argue and debate on such matters. But to see it in a clear light, compare over one hundred years of breeding the APBT, to let's say, the last 20 years. You've got 20 years of wild imaginations and breedings totally out of context to the real APBT, where the dogs are bred for their outer qualities, where to the majority, culling is a dirty word, and the very inward qualities that made them the one time symbol of the United States, and America's most trusted dog, are for the most part lost.

Just because somebody in the ADBA now accepts that color, doesn't make it right in regards to the true history of the breed. Just because modern people in "so-called" authority of the ADBA are trying to change history, it doesn't mean the dedicated APBT owners now and to come must "join the crowd," as history cannot be rewriiten, only covered up.

But hey, that's the ADBA, and for dedicated owners of the OFRN strain who care for it's preservation, the place to go is the Old Family Red Nose Registry. (Another post was put up on this) There will never be a "chocolate" color there. The colors are light red, silver red, red, dark red, brindle, with or without white...no others allowed. It's really KISS-Keep It Simple Stupid.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

And what is new?
So you got a red nose from 2 black nose dogs.....happens all the time.
Red nose is recessive, black nose isn't.
For a pup to be black nose, one of the parents has to be black nose. It has to be present in the sire or dam.
But 2 red nose can not produce a black nose because it isn't recessive.


That is BS, the red nose gene does not have to be present in the lineage of both dogs. That is like saying 2 brown eyed people, both have to have the blue eyed recessive gene for it to appear in their child,,,,,,,,BS.
That is like saying any recessive disease both parents must have the disease gene in their lineage.....BS!


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Tx Red Dog said:


> That is BS, the red nose gene does not have to be present in the lineage of both dogs. That is like saying 2 brown eyed people, both have to have the blue eyed recessive gene for it to appear in their child,,,,,,,,BS.
> That is like saying any recessive disease both parents must have the disease gene in their lineage.....BS!


ANY recessive trait has to come from both parents. You CAN NOT express a recessive gene unless it is inherited from both parents. Thats just how genetics work.

That why its called recessive:hammer:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Tx Red Dog Holly is right I think you should read this ....

*The Genetics of Breed Color In The American Pit Bull Terrier
by Amy Greenwood Burford B.S.*

One of my responsibilities as a member of the staff of the American Dog Breeders Association is to be the 'color expert'. I believe that my many years of experience in the breed, as well as the opportunity to have grown up in a true 'American Pit Bull Terrier' family. has given me the exposure that it requires to know the descriptive terms to describe the many diverse colors in our breed. The color description that is placed on your ADBA registration papers does not in any way attempt to depict the genetic makeup (genotype) of the individual dog. Instead it is a description of the dogs actual color that you see (phenotype). This color description is used for identification only and in many cases does not predict what color combinations the individual dog will produce in its offspring.
Over the course of the last few months, I have received a surprising number of questions concerning color and the genetic inheritance of color. Questions such as: 1. The blue color in the APBT in the past was very rare. How are so many kennels now producing blues in such numbers? 2. It is possible to produce a puppy with a black nose, when both parents have red noses? 3. Where does the chocolate coloring come from? 4. How did I produce a brindle from a line that has never had brindle dogs? In my review of the genetics of color in the American Pit Bull Terrier, I will review a few of the principals of genetic inheritance in general and look at the research that has been done in the field of color genetics in our breed in an attempt to give our readers a better understanding of color genetic as well as provide answers to the above questions.
GENETIC PRINCIPALS
Each offspring inherits one half of their genetic make-up from their sire and one half from their dam. All members of the genus canis, to which all dog breeds belong have 78 chromosomes. They appear in pairs and consist of chains of DNA material. Small sections of these DNA chains make up genes, the genetic code for the production of certain proteins in the individual dog. The genetic material for particular traits in the dog are located in certain regions on the chromosomes called loci (plural) or locus (singular). The different assortment of genes that are possible are a particular locus are called alleles. In many different breeds, through selective breeding, only one allele is found at a particular loci, leading to all members of the breed having the same trait. This is why purebred dogs will breed true, for those characteristics that distinguish one breed from another. Alleles exhibit a dominance relationship when paired with a different allele. When the alleles are different at the same loci, they are said to be heterozygous. When the alleles are alike at the same loci, they are said to be homozygous. Dependent upon how many different alleles are possible there are multiple combinations of dominance. The term epistatic (above), means more dominant and hypostatic (below) means less dominant. Geneticists use an upper case letter: example (A), to signal a dominant allele, and a lower case letter: example (a) to denote a recessive allele.
The study of color genetic within a breed can be complex, as there are nine different locations (loci) on the chromosomes that effect the final color that you see in your dog. At each loci are two or more alleles, or gene choices, that interact according to their dominance-recessive relationships. At loci that have more than two alleles, the relative dominance in the series have been listed in order of their dominance.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Genetic research into the genotypes of coat color has not been done with UKC or ADBA
registered APBT. The reason is this: throughout the history of our breed, dogs have not been bred for color. All colors were considered equal. An individual dog was selected as breeding stock based upon a multitude of factors, none of them being color. The canine genetic research into the genotype of color has been done solely in AKC registered breeds. One of the breeds that has been studied is the American Staffordshire Terrier. As a matter of review, it is important to understand that every dog accepted into the AKC registry as an American Staffordshire Terrier was also registered with the UKC or ADBA as an American Pit Bull Terrier. The year was 1936, and the popularity of the Our Gang Comedy and show's mascot, Petey, prompted the AKC to open their stud book to the breed as long as the breed name could be changed to the American Staffordshire Terrier. No other breed has been crossed into the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier lines, so we are justified in examining the results of this research and applying it to our ADBA registered dogs. The researched results of the color genotypes possible in our breed, at the nine loci responsible for the determination of color are presented below:
As/Ay/at, B/b, C, D/d, E/Ebr/e, g, m, S/si/sp/sw, t
Locus A Series: Dark Pigment Pattern
This locus has six different alleles possible in the canine population. Only three are present in the APBT breed.
(As) dominant Black
(Ay) dominant Yellow
(at) bicolored pattern (tan 'Doberman like' markings on a solid coat)
The A alleles are pattern factors that control the amount and area distribution of dark and light pigment. They act within the hair follicle to switch pigment synthesis between light and dark. It is important to remember that alleles at this locus interact with Locus E alleles.
(As) - DOMINANT BLACK: This allele produces uniform coverage of dark pigment over the entire body. Its action is expressed in all dogs with black or brown coats. The (As) allele is almost completely dominant over others in the A series. The black color ranges from pure black to a black with a brownish cast (seal). Geneticists are uncertain if the allele is incapable to produce pure black without additional help from another locus, or if the brown cast indicates a heterozygous allele.
(Ay) - DOMINANT YELLOW: The (Ay) allele restricts dark pigment, producing yellow colors. When homozygous, the coat can be clear gold, but often has black tipped hairs, especially on the head and down the back.
(at) - BLACK AND TAN PATTERN (BICOLORED): The typical tan points are above each eye, on each cheek, on the lips and lower jaw, extending under the throat, two spots on the chest, below the tail, and on the feet to the pasterns and hocks, extending up the inner sides of the legs. These tan points can occur on black or seal, blue, chocolate or red solid colored dogs. A great deal of variation can occur with these tan points, even within the depth of the pigment. In some dogs the tan points are not always marked and the color contrast is not always distinct.
Locus B Series - Black/Brown Pigment
(B) black pigment
(b) brown pigment
This locus contains only two alleles, the dominant (B) producing black skin and nose pigment and the (b) recessive allele, producing brown pigment. In dogs that are red or buckskin, the Locus (B) alleles are expressed in skin color, most visible around the eyes and nose. The black
nose indicates the genotype is (BB) or (Bb), both which would be expressed as black nose because of the dominance of the (B) allele. A light brown or red nose is (bb), or homozygous recessive. Being homozygous recessive, both parents must contribute one recessive (b) gene to the offspring to produce the red nose. When breeding two dogs with the (bb) genotype, the only resulting combination in the pups would be ( bb) or red nose.
Locus C: Pigment depth
The Locus C series controls the production of pigment throughout the coat. In dogs, the expression of the Locus C alleles is based on observation rather than experimental studies. The American Staffordshire Terrier breed is felt to have only the dominant (C) allele at this locus. The C allele allows the full expression of color, of dark and light pigments. The allele (cch) or Chinchilla Dilution, found in other breeds at this locus, causes the light pigments to be diluted out in various degrees. This would account for the varying shades found in many littermates depending on their homozygous or heterozygous pairing. The chinchilla dilution allele (cch) does not affect the dark pigment, thus allowing for the white dog with black skin pigment and black nose. Other researchers (Robinson) feel that other modifier polygenes are responsible for this phenotype.
CC full color
Ccch medium shade
cchcch pale shade
Locus D pair: Pigment density
(D) intense pigment density
(d) dilute pigment density
The locus D pair modifies the density of the pigment. The dominant (D) gives full density in both the heterozygous (Dd) or the homozygous (DD) combination. The homozygous recessive (dd) alleles dilute the color. When the dogs basic color is produced by dark pigment, genotype (Bbdd) or (BBdd) yields the color known as blue. The black coat is modified as well as the skin pigment to a gray or blue pigment around the eyes, pads and nose. When the dogs basic color is produced by a light pigment the genotype bbdd (dilute brown pigment) produces a fawn with a silvery cast known in our breed as a fawn/bluies. The skin pigment around the eyes is flesh colored as well as a red or brown colored nose.
Locus E Series: Extension
(Em) black mask
(Ebr) brindle
(E) extension of dark pigment
(f) restriction of dark pigment
The Locus E alleles affect the extension of dark pigment, and all of the alleles at this locus interact with those of locus A.
(Em) - BLACK MASK: This allele is dominant to all others in the series and is expressed as a black mask on dogs that are not solid black. One researcher, Robinson, considers the evidence that the black mask belongs in the E series as unconvincing and assigns it to a different series. (Ebr) - BRINDLE PATTERN: The brindle allele produces the brindle pattern with stripes or bars of dark pigment on a background of light pigment. In dogs with the dominant (As) allele, which produces a solid coat of dark pigment (brown or black), the (Ebr) allele is masked because
there is no light pigment on which it can act. It is dominant over the extension (E) allele. In our breed, interactions with alleles at the B and D loci produce a rich variety of brindle colors: Ay-B-D-Ebr- blackbrindle
Ay-B-ddEbr- blue brindle
Ay-bbD-Ebr- brownorchocolatebrindle
Ay-bbddEbr- fawnbrindle
(The (-) as the second allele at the locus pair denotes an allele that is uncertain because of the dominant nature of the first allele. It could be homozygous or heterozygous with any of the other alleles.)
(E) - EXTENSION: The E allele produces normal extension or expression of dark pigment. It interacts with Locus A alleles to produce a variety of effects:
As-E- black/brown
Ay-E- red or buckskin with or without black ticked hairs (on head and back) referred to
as sable in other breeds
(ee) - RESTRICTION: The homozygous (ee) alleles restricts the expression of dark pigment, producing the yellow shades by light pigment. It does allow the expression of dark pigment on the nose, lips and eye rims. It is recessive to all other alleles in the E series. Homozygous (ee) alleles interferes with the expression of most Locus A alleles.
As-ee buckskin
Ay-ee light tan
Locus G pair: Progressive Graying
(g) uniform color throughout life
Research concludes that the AST breed are homozygous (gg) with dogs retaining their coloring throughout their lifetime. The G dominant allele present in other breeds produces a silvering or graying of the coat over time and the recessive (g) allele, giving a uniform color throughout the dogs lifetime.
Locus M Pair: Merle Pattern
(m) uniform pigment
Research has shown that our breed has only the recessive (m) allele at this locus. The homozygous recessive (mm) produces a uniform pigment in the breed. The (M) dominant allele produces the merle or dapple pattern. The dominant (M) allele has been identified in Collies, Shetland sheepdogs, Australian Shepherds, Cardigan Welsh Corgis, Great Danes, Louisiana Catalhoula, Spotted Leopard Dogs and Dachshunds.
Locus T Pair: Ticking
(t) no ticking
Research has shown that our breed has only the recessive allele (t) at this locus which in the homozygous recessive (tt) allows no ticking. The dark ticking that we see in our breed is determined on the Locus A series by the dominant (As) allele, not on the Locus T Pair. In some breeds this is known as a sable. In the APBT, traditionally this coloring is called black or brown ticked. There are modifier polygenes that control the location and extent of the black ticking in the breed. The dominant (T) allele at this locus causes the tiny flecks of pigmented hair in otherwise non pigmented (or white) areas. The T allele is typical in breeds such as the English setter and many of the hound breeds.
Locus S Series: White Pattern
The alleles of the Locus S series produce the white markings that are often seen in our breed. Researchers identify four alleles at this locus:
S solid color
si Irish spotting
sp piebald spotting
sw extreme piebald spotting
The above sequence reflects the decreasing areas of pigmented hairs. There is some question about the relative dominance of and interaction between the alleles in their heterozygous forms because the expression is complicated by modifier polygenes which affect all of the alleles. Our breed, which research shows carries all four of the alleles, show all ranges of white markings from solid colors to all white.
(S)- SOLID COLOR: The homozygous (S) alleles produce a solid colored coat. The modifiers will, on occasion, produce a small amount of white markings on the throat, chest, toes, abdomen and belly.
(si) - IRISH SPOTTING PATTERN: This allele produces a pattern of white on the muzzle, forehead, chest, belly, feet and tail tip. The varying size of the white area is affected by the plus and minus modifiers. Breeds thought to be homozygous for this are the Boston Terrier, Basenjis and Collies.
(sp) - PIEBALD SPOTTING PATTERN: This allele produces a widely varying areas of white. In the homozygous (spsp) genotype you would see a white dog with dark patches.
(sw) - EXTREME PIEBALD SPOTTING PATTERN: This allele further decreases the pigmented area and, depending on the plus or minus modifiers, the pattern can range from solid white to white with spots on the ears, around the eyes, and in the tail area.
GENOTYPE SUMMARY in the American Staffordshire Terrier:
Black
Blue
Black & Tan
Red
Fawn
BrindleAy-D-Ebr-
Blue Brindle Ay-B-ddEbr-
CONCLUSION:
Question # 1: In times past, the blue color was considered as rare in the breed. How are kennels now producing blue dogs in such great numbers?
The D Locus pair is the loci that modifies the dark Pigment pattern to blue with the homozygous recessive (dd) alleles. Because kennels are selecting blue individuals which are homozygous recessive (dd) the only allele that a blue parent can give to their offspring is the recessive (b) allele. Breeding two blues together doubles up the recessive trait to (dd) which
As-D-E- As-ddE- atatD-E- AyD-E- AyddE-
modifies the dominant (As) allele to blue. If a resulting offspring happens to get the (Ay) allele from one of its parents, then the (dd) will modify this color to a fawn/bluies. If breeders are breeding dogs for the blue color, since the gene is homozygous recessive, 100% of their offspring will be (dd) and depending on the (As) or (Ay) allele on the Locus A series will have blue or fawn/bluies pups.
*Question # 2: It is possible to produce a puppy with a black nose from two parents, both with red noses?*

*The red nose in our breed is produced from the Locus B pair with the homozygous recessive (bb) genotype in combination with the (Ay-) genotype. Mating two dogs with the genotype (bb) the result would be 100% of the pups having red noses (bb).* *If a pup with a black nose was produced in one of my litters where both parents had red noses, then DNA testing with parentage verification would be necessary to determine the actual sire to the black nose pup. New alleles can be produced through mutation, but proof of parentage would have to be determined using DNA to rule out a duel sired litter.*
Question # 3: Where does the chocolate color come from?
The chocolate color comes from the Locus B pair with the homozyous recessive (bb) in combination with the (As) allele. The dilution gene (dd) will also modify this dark chocolate to a light or almost milk chocolate. In most cases, the nose color is also light brown or as we say 'chocolate/red nose'.
Question # 4: How did I produce a brindle from a line that has never had brindle dogs?
The Locus E Series (Ebr) allele causes the brindle color pattern when this dominant allele is present in combination with the (Ay) allele. The (Ebr) allele is dominant except in dogs with the (As) allele. In the case of the (As), the (Ebr) allele does not have a light pigment to work on, the brindle will remain hidden. In tracing a brindle dogs bloodline, somewhere in the generations you should see a brindle dog since the (Ebr) allele is dominant. Again, if this was my litter, I would ask for parentage verification using DNA to rule out a dual sired litter.
In conclusion, I would like to advise breeders to look beyond a dog color in determining quality in terms of breeding stock. Selection should be made looking to breed type, temperament, structural soundness and overall health in that order. If the colors of the pups that result from your breeding 'Just doesn't make sense', invest in parentage verification using DNA testing. The cost is cheap, and the peace of mind is great.
Want to learn more? Contact the ADBA for a list of references.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:goodpost: I was wondering which one of us was going to be first ..


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Yep its a good read, Amy also has other published work that makes for a good read especially if your interested in the genetics side of how things go down.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Wow...

I mean wow... talk about a knowledge bomb. Thanks for the answers  Always thought the black nose period would dominate. Thanks for the lesson.
... so does that mean there are OFRN dogs out there with black noses? Or am I just on the wrong track here?


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

This is Edward aka Tard.... 
as a pup..








as a young adult..









His sire is a tan with faint black mask, his dam is a buckskin rednose. I would have to pull out his papers to see what I registered him as... I probably put buckskin or some such..lol


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

LadyRampage said:


> This is Edward aka Tard....
> as a pup..
> 
> 
> ...


I freakin LOVE that boy sooooooooooo much!  One fine piece of doggy right there. Can you clone him so I can have one too


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

LMAO!!!! You would soooooooo send him back!!!!! He is a gorgeous package but a bunch of bricks shy of a load..lmao Thank you, I do appreciate it!!


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

LOLL I love dogs like that! I swear Dosia is king pea brain but he does what I tell him and is a hard worker, just not the brightest crayon in the box. Boy is sweet as a bag of candy though  I bet Ed is too


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

He's a keeper..lol I do have to say that he learned sit, high five, 1 bark...still does down and roll over alllll together really fast... but catching a ball took him months and months and months of me bouncing a ball off his head while he squeezed his eyes shut..lmao 

Our current trick is popping a basketball...lol His grandsire Oden could pop a basketball in seconds of seeing it..so I figured we'd work on Eddie..could take awhile..lmao


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

LMAO.... Here is a good question for you Stacia. Is Edward a submissive dog? Helena is a smartie pants and is very dominant. So I wonder if there is a correlation there.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

LMAO OMG I have some seriously ridiculous pics of Dosia attempting to catch when he was younger. Poor guy got bashed in the face one to many times loll. I think that face they make is so freakin funny! The closed eyes open mouth hope it all works out look :rofl:


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

Hmm he is fairly dominate in a goofy way... gets a bit stubborn at times... thinks that if he doesn't give me eye contact he doesn't have to listen... Usually my extremely dominate dogs are smart and stubborn... I've always associated with the smarter the dog the more headstrong and stubborn they can be, since they will test you to see just how much they can get away with. Edward doesn't test, he just does seriously brainless acts..lol


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

LadyRampage said:


> Hmm he is fairly dominate in a goofy way... gets a bit stubborn at times... thinks that if he doesn't give me eye contact he doesn't have to listen... Usually my extremely dominate dogs are smart and stubborn... I've always associated with the smarter the dog the more headstrong and stubborn they can be, since they will test you to see just how much they can get away with. Edward doesn't test, he just does seriously brainless acts..lol


:rofl::rofl: Maybe he is totally smart and just plays dumb to get extra love.


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## LadyRampage (Apr 11, 2009)

He is actually the more of any attention is good for him..lmao My nephew, who lives with us now, is like Edward's big brother he follows Anthony around EVERYWHERE and will wake him up if he can get in his room in the mornings..lol So he is always doing something annoying or stupid... seriously...he went thru a phase of running from the front yard (at full speed) jumping up the front steps and slamming head first into the screen door....noo he isn't blind because he would squeeze his eyes shut just before impact, and he didn't do it once or twice....


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

LadyRampage said:


> He is actually the more of any attention is good for him..lmao My nephew, who lives with us now, is like Edward's big brother he follows Anthony around EVERYWHERE and will wake him up if he can get in his room in the mornings..lol So he is always doing something annoying or stupid... seriously...he went thru a phase of running from the front yard (at full speed) jumping up the front steps and slamming head first into the screen door....noo he isn't blind because he would squeeze his eyes shut just before impact, and he didn't do it once or twice....


:rofl::rofl: What a freak! You are right, he is lucky he is handsome.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

LMAO!!!!!! That's too funny what a goof!!!!


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## Chloesmygirl (Jan 31, 2011)

I believe, its the same concept with people and eye color. Two brown eyed people can have a blue eyed child. Two blue eyed people cannot.

I have brown eyes, my husband has blue eyes. We have 3 children, 2 with blue eyes and 1 with brown. Brown is dominant over blue which is why when you look at me you see brown eyes but I carry the recessive blue gene. My brown eyed son also carries the recessive blue eyed gene.


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

That's a cool way of looking at it. What about me One of my parents had blue eyes and the other had brown why on earth am I the only one in the family with green eyes? lol Please don't say the milk man :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Chloesmygirl (Jan 31, 2011)

kg420 said:


> That's a cool way of looking at it. What about me One of my parents had blue eyes and the other had brown why on earth am I the only one in the family with green eyes? lol Please don't say the milk man :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


No milkman! The simplest way to put it as it can be complicated is that your parent with the brown eyes also carries the green eyed gene. You got this green eyed gene from you brown eyed parent and you inherited a blue eyed gene from your blue eyed parent. And since green is dominant over blue you have green eyes but you also carry the blue eyed gene.

That's the best way I can explain it.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks Sadie for the post. Besides being beautiful you also have brains!! SWAK!


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Tx Red Dog said:


> Thanks Sadie for the post. Besides being beautiful you also have brains!! SWAK!


Well Thank You LOL


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## Black Rabbit (Nov 14, 2009)

Chloesmygirl said:


> No milkman! The simplest way to put it as it can be complicated is that your parent with the brown eyes also carries the green eyed gene. You got this green eyed gene from you brown eyed parent and you inherited a blue eyed gene from your blue eyed parent. And since green is dominant over blue you have green eyes but you also carry the blue eyed gene.
> 
> That's the best way I can explain it.


That totally makes sense  Guess that's why our son's eyes came out green too


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

bahamutt99 said:


> Chocolate, champagne. Now we just need to call an orange dog "cheese" color and we'll have a dope snack platter.


L, I missed this the first time around. LOL
Glad someone gets it.
It is getting pretty amateurish with these color names.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Sadie said:


> Well Thank You LOL


What I was trying to say is, I think everyone can appreciate your attempt in explaining but the first was from Amy, who is a dear person but surly I wouldn't use her as a reference...
I remember when her father bought ADBA. They had no clue what was what.
Look at their past with registration of Merle colored dogs, black nose off 2 red nose dogs. The registry is polluted with these registered dogs.

Once again as far as being recessive, recessive is a trait that appear at any given time. It does not have to be on both sides to appear.
If this was the case, recessive disease and congenial faults wouldn't appear.
It only has to present in one or the other.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

This is part which is what hing on this post:

*"New alleles can be produced through mutation, but proof of parentage would have to be determined using DNA to rule out a duel sired litter."*

No it can't. 
I have personally seen this happen time and time again.
Where a red nose produced a black nose pup from mutation.
But because of their lack of experience they can't explain all of it.

When this mutation occurs, it it is called *Fatal Mutation*.
When the black nose pup is born it will be born dead or dies shorty there after.
Color Fatal Mutation isn't uncommon in animals. 
It is very common amongst AQHA.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

TX red dog It doesn't matter if I use Amy Greenwood as a reference or not it's still a scientific medical PRVOEN fact that a recessive trait can only be "physically" seen in the offspring if both parents are carriers of that recessive gene. If you do not want to credit Amy Greenwood because you think she's not " QUALIFIED ENOUGH" to speak about this subject even though she has her Bachelor of Science degree. Than call and speak to a geneticist they will tell you the same thing. 



In genetics, the term "recessive gene" refers to an allele that causes a phenotype (visible or detectable characteristic) that is only seen in a homozygous genotype (an organism that has two copies of the same allele) and never in a heterozygous genotype. A recessive trait only becomes phenotypically apparent when two copies of a gene (two alleles) are present.


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## Loke-a-doke (Jun 11, 2010)

kg420 said:


> That's a cool way of looking at it. What about me One of my parents had blue eyes and the other had brown why on earth am I the only one in the family with green eyes? lol Please don't say the milk man :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Haha I'm the only one in my family with green eyes too...my mom and one brother have blue. My dad and the other brother have brown. and i'm a little greenie haha.

My dad must be afraid of the milkman though because he'll never admit that they're green! lol


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Sadie said:


> TX red dog It doesn't matter if I use Amy Greenwood as a reference or not it's still a scientific medical PRVOEN fact that a recessive trait can only be "physically" seen in the offspring if both parents are carriers of that recessive gene. If you do not want to credit Amy Greenwood because you think she's not " QUALIFIED ENOUGH" to speak about this subject even though she has her Bachelor of Science degree. Than call and speak to a geneticists they will tell you the same thing.
> 
> In genetics, the term "recessive gene" refers to an allele that causes a phenotype (visible or detectable characteristic) that is only seen in a homozygous genotype (an organism that has two copies of the same allele) and never in a heterozygous genotype. A recessive trait only becomes phenotypically apparent when two copies of a gene (two alleles) are present.


:goodpost: thats the way I learned it in bio, lab, and life.. always count on you to cut right through the hoopalah, and set everyone straight


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

Genetics is tricky and as with anything and almost everything people will alter, play with words, facts , opinion to suit their supposed " findings " or research. Thats how I think when ever I read anything having to do with science, religion , nutrition or other loll ...
just saying ........


I do have to agree on the human side of genetics though both parents do not have to be a carrier of physical traits to pass it on to their off spring looking at my own family for generations.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Chloesmygirl said:


> I believe, its the same concept with people and eye color. Two brown eyed people can have a blue eyed child. Two blue eyed people cannot.
> 
> I have brown eyes, my husband has blue eyes. We have 3 children, 2 with blue eyes and 1 with brown. Brown is dominant over blue which is why when you look at me you see brown eyes but I carry the recessive blue gene. My brown eyed son also carries the recessive blue eyed gene.


My boyfriend and I both have brown eyes and we produced a blue eyed boy. haha


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Shes Got Heart said:


> My boyfriend and I both have brown eyes and we produced a blue eyed boy. haha


That is because you and your boyfriend both carry the gene for blue eyes  Now if you both had blue eyes you could only produce children with blue eyes ....


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

Sadie said:


> That is because you and your boyfriend both carry the gene for blue eyes  Now if you both had blue eyes you could only produce children with blue eyes ....


Yeah I read there is like a 1 in 4 chance for him to have blue eyes. I kept waiting for them to change color but he is 15 months now so I guess he is keeping them. lol People ask questions and I find it so annoying!


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## dixieland (Aug 14, 2009)

Probably not quite as annoying as when people ask me where my sons get their blonde almost white hair from.I have brown hair and my husband is Indian with black hair.It gets so old when people ask that.Everytime I go to the store with them at least 2 people ask.:flush:


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

DueceAddicTed said:


> Genetics is tricky and as with anything and almost everything people will alter, play with words, facts , opinion to suit their supposed " findings " or research. Thats how I think when ever I read anything having to do with science, religion , nutrition or other loll ...
> just saying ........
> 
> I do have to agree on the human side of genetics though both parents do not have to be a carrier of physical traits to pass it on to their off spring looking at my own family for generations.


Ronnie I am disputing passing on recessive gene's specifically not dominate or defective genes. A child inherits 50% of their genes from the mother and 50% from the father I am speaking only about recessive genes. If you have a mother with blue eyes and a father with brown eyes the child will not get blue eyes unless both parents are carriers of that gene what that means is in genetics the father can have brown eyes but in order for his child to have blue eyes he must also be a carrier of the gene for blue eyes the mother is already a known carrier because she has blue eyes it can be physically see that she is a carrier. Now because that child inherits 50% of it's genes from the mother and 50% from the father the child could inherit the gene for blue eyes from it's mother even though the child's eyes cannot be blue because dad is not a carrier of the blue eye gene. But in the future should that child grow up and have children of his own with a blue eyed woman their child could have blue eyes if he inherited the blue gene from his mother. Genetic disorders or gene defects are a bit different and we are speaking specifically about color and and recessive genes. In the law of genetics it is impossible for for a recessive gene to be physically seen in the offspring unless both parents are carriers of that recessive gene. TX redog I respect your right to disagree with me but I urge you to contact a geneticist or genetic expert to follow up on what I am saying.


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

I don't get into these debates but I know whats in my family .....
I am a carrier of the blue eye gene, I know grand parents, great grand and great great grand ... the women in my family are the carriers but not the men. I am going by what is in my family Tara. I understand all the other stuff but I have never put 100% into science. 

My oldest has baby blues, father dark brown, both his parents dark everything and so his grand parents actually no one in his family has color anything.....
Nor did anyone on my fathers side ...... 
I am a carrier as is my mother .....
My oldest brother is blue eyed , blonde hair 5'11 ... our mother 4'11 dark eyes, dark hair
his father brown skinned, brown eyes to the point of being black, yet black hair lol ...
If you had seen him as a child you would not believe he came from both those parents at all ... but like I said I'm going by the make up of my family and what has been produced in it .........



ALL off topic though lol ....... but I get what your saying


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## DueceAddicTed (Sep 28, 2009)

Gosh I'm tired I just realized I'm talking about my family like their animals with words like off spring and produced lol


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I hear you LOL .. I am not a genetic expert by any means but from every book on genetics I have ever read and following up with a geneticist to confirm what I read and that I interpreted it correctly this is how it works science wise. Genetics is a very tedious topic and very difficult to explain to others. But I don't expect anyone to take what I am saying as fact I encourage everyone to contact a geneticist for themselves and pick up some good books on genetics written by geneticists. I just wanted you to know I was only speaking about recessive genes there are other things like Genetic Disorders and Gene Defects which I am not going into because it will completely confuse everyone LOL. Believe me I hate this subject as much as you do and get headaches trying to explain it LOL


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## SideKick (Jul 18, 2011)

Sadie said:


> That is because you and your boyfriend both carry the gene for blue eyes  Now if you both had blue eyes you could only produce children with blue eyes ....


Wait a minute. Both of my parents have blue eyes and I have hazel.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

SideKick said:


> Wait a minute. Both of my parents have blue eyes and I have hazel.


I should have added this is generally how it works however genes can be affected by Recombination and other environmental factors ....

Typically, hazel, green, and grey eyes are produced when a blue iris is overlaid by other pigments, such as very small amounts of melanin or by the reddish-orange pigments known as carotenoids.

However, it's possible for a child to inherit a reversion mutation, in which the gene that's inactive in the parent changes when the parent makes gametes, and the child inherits the newly activated gene. This isn't common, but it's not impossible.

Gene expression also can be affected by the conditions the embryo/fetus experiences in utero. Certain medications and other chemicals can result in unexpected gene expression.


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## 9361 (Jun 25, 2009)

dixieland said:


> Probably not quite as annoying as when people ask me where my sons get their blonde almost white hair from.I have brown hair and my husband is Indian with black hair.It gets so old when people ask that.Everytime I go to the store with them at least 2 people ask.:flush:


:rofl: I think I"m just going to start saying "yeah I cheated how do you like that!" And then have Andrew freak out and then look at the person who asked and be like "YOU RUINED MY FAMILY!" :rofl: Ok maybe not really. But the expression on their face would be priceless.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

SideKick said:


> Wait a minute. Both of my parents have blue eyes and I have hazel.


both of my indian friends in oklahoma have indian or indian mix wives; both dark hair dark eyes.. both couples have kids who are all blond hair and blue eyed..

the recessive became prevelant and if those kids find another blue eye donor then blue eyes will be even more dominant..


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I am not getting into genetic engineering and how genes can be affected through chemicals, environment, ect... But there are some good books out there about genetics I like Human Molecular Genetics by Tom Strachan...


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## SideKick (Jul 18, 2011)

did some ninja style googling. Lol. Dang it i was looking forward to callin mom and sayin "You cheated on Dad with the milkman!"


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

SideKick said:


> did some ninja style googling. Lol. Dang it i was looking forward to callin mom and sayin "You cheated on Dad with the milkman!"


LOL Sorry like I said I am not a genetic expert but I do have basic understanding of how this stuff works ....


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## Mach0 (Mar 28, 2010)

Dang Sadie- I read some of the last post and all I got was blah blah blah. I think I just had an aneurism.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Sadie said:


> TX red dog It doesn't matter if I use Amy Greenwood as a reference or not it's still a scientific medical PRVOEN fact that a recessive trait can only be "physically" seen in the offspring if both parents are carriers of that recessive gene. If you do not want to credit Amy Greenwood because you think she's not " QUALIFIED ENOUGH" to speak about this subject even though she has her Bachelor of Science degree. Than call and speak to a geneticist they will tell you the same thing.
> 
> In genetics, the term "recessive gene" refers to an allele that causes a phenotype (visible or detectable characteristic) that is only seen in a homozygous genotype (an organism that has two copies of the same allele) and never in a heterozygous genotype. A recessive trait only becomes phenotypically apparent when two copies of a gene (two alleles) are present.


No I can't use Amy, why is because less then 7 years ago we brought this subject directly to Her, Kate and Renee and they didn't have a clue on the subject.
No she is not with a mere Bachelor of Science degree.
So I will use a much simpler analogy for you to understand on recessive genes..
BTW there isn't a word as phenotypically.

In most states for decades when people got married they had to take a blood test, not a DNA comparison.
The purpose of this is, they have known for decades that certain blood types could produce still born or mentally or physically handicap children.
Thou if those 2 same blood types were to produce children with other blood types then there wouldn't be the same results.

BTW all genetic colors are homozygous genotype (mixing of gene types).
No both do not have it present. Present means to be appearing in either the father or mother. 
This is why it is called recessive because it does not have to physically appear in neither one.

Now we can debate this until the cows come home but this will conclude the issue once and for all.
*ALL* APBT have OFRN in their heritage. Irish Old Family Reds is one of many foundation breeds which help create the APBT.
*NO* bloodline or strain within the breed of APBT doesn't have the recessive red nose gene in its lineage.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

My head hurts already that is why I hate this topic LOL ...


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> both of my indian friends in oklahoma have indian or indian mix wives; both dark hair dark eyes.. both couples have kids who are all blond hair and blue eyed..
> 
> the recessive became prevelant and if those kids find another blue eye donor then blue eyes will be even more dominant..


But using your example then both your Indian friends would also must have a mix in them as well so it could be present in their children. Meaning both sides.
These old text book references are out dated.
It has been common knowledge for some time of *recessive* gene trait can appear with only one parent having the genetic DNA.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm getting tried of being timed out. lol


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Mach0 said:


> Dang Sadie- I read some of the last post and all I got was blah blah blah. I think I just had an aneurism.


I'm glad you use that term.
Aneurysm is most often recessive, meaning passed down from a parent.
Both parents don't have to have the condition, once it has been detected for it to pass to the children.
This is why when one parent has been detected, Doctors will test all the children even if there is no history of it appearing in the other parent ancestry.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Tx Red Dog said:


> But using your example then both your Indian friends would also must have a mix in them as well so it could be present in their children. Meaning both sides.
> These old text book references are out dated.
> It has been common knowledge for some time of *recessive* gene trait can appear with only one parent having the genetic DNA.


Tx redog where is your expertise on genetics coming from? Can you send me something written by a geneticist that states this? Because everything I have read on genetics regarding this has been completely opposite of what you call common knowledge. And while I am not an expert in genetics I am certainly educated and I know how to read and comprehend. So If you would provide me a reference for what your claiming to be true I would like to read it.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

I know that both parents do not have to physically show the recessive trait it can be hidden in both or one of the parents but they both need to be carriers for it to appear!!! A recessive gene cannot be expressed or seen unless BOTH parents are carriers this is FACT! I am not making this up.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Shes Got Heart said:


> :rofl: I think I"m just going to start saying "yeah I cheated how do you like that!" And then have Andrew freak out and then look at the person who asked and be like "YOU RUINED MY FAMILY!" :rofl: Ok maybe not really. But the expression on their face would be priceless.


 That is hilarious. I would so pay good money to be sitting near you with a video camera when you did it. And.,, I can empathize with this topic 



Tx Red Dog said:


> No I can't use Amy, why is because less then 7 years ago we brought this subject directly to Her, Kate and Renee and they didn't have a clue on the subject.
> No she is not with a mere Bachelor of Science degree.
> So I will use a much simpler analogy for you to understand on recessive genes..
> BTW there isn't a word as phenotypically.
> ...


You know.. I dont think there is any way to agree on this without actual scientific proof and explanations (which Amy has provided)(regardless of her starting point or when) You absolutely cant despute scientific fact.. Nobody is right all the time, even miracles happen that cant be explained. What would happen when these two black nosed dogs produced an entirely rednose litter (which happens to be what happened). I was originally just under the impression that the two dominant black noses would overpower the recessive gene. I was just thinking the wrong way. Thanks for all yalls advice. Now.. The trait of the recessive rednose gene from the OFRN of the past that is most definately in most all dogs of today would have to have seemingly popped out of both to make an entire litter of rednoses.


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

Before the Irish Old Family Reds were imported, the only other red dogs I know of being here in the US are the Lightner dogs.
So the question is, were the red Lightner dogs in the BN dogs when the imported dogs arrived?
My assumption is Lightner didn't just hand his dogs out to anyone, and bred them for himself.
So, since some are saying that both parents must have RN dogs in them, then how did the Old Family dogs produce RN when bred to BN dogs?
Because this is where the OFRN strain came from, breeding the reds to BN dogs.
And from what I gathered through my research, the Old Familt dogs in Ireland were not originally red dogs.
But through tight family breeding began to produce them...meaning the red nose dogs came from BN dogs, through this tight family breeding.
It was breeding "outside" the family of Old Family Reds that the strain derived.
So what would science say to this? (I'm being rhetorical, it's not a question! ) The answer would be, "We just don't know."

But as for science, I find it hard to listen and follow the athiests who come up with all these theories, and decorate them with $50 words, LOL.
I find it hard to swallow the words of dudes (and women too!) who tell me I came from a monkey, and that the world was formed by a big bang...
Anyone who has seen a real bang, knows explosions destroy life and all around, rather than give life.

Anyway, science is not my gospel, and I won't listen to the "educated" who only learn by sitting on their rear ends....
and avoid getting their own hands dirty... 
(BTW, Ms. Sadie, this isn't directed toward you!  LOL)


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

And I hope not to me...

The big bang is still a theory, not fact. I can see how over time elements combined through even catastrophic events can produce things(maybe life)
That we came from monkeys... wow..then why are there still monkeys?? haha!!! 

But things like genetics have been proven for many years.. and now advanced on.

I love the point of how if both parents had to have the recessive trait how was it started in the first place! RN and BN were bred together and now we still get rednose.. only 1 parent needs the gene.. thank you for your words 

I simply wanted the opinions on how an entire litter was made from two dominant BN dogs...


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## Saint Francis (Jun 2, 2010)

OK...so I got this pup with a red and black nose...... LOL


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Saint Francis said:


> OK...so I got this pup with a red and black nose...... LOL


:rofl: me too.. the dogs two years old and his nose in red in the middle and black around it.. LOL


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

HeavyJeep said:


> And I hope not to me...
> 
> The big bang is still a theory, not fact. I can see how over time elements combined through even catastrophic events can produce things(maybe life)
> That we came from monkeys... wow..then why are there still monkeys?? haha!!!
> ...


I was being sarcastic and humorous,,,:roll: 
I believe in the Divine, and Providence, ect...but this is not the place for those topics...
But the fact remains, the breeders years ago, such as Feeley, Corcoran, Shipley, Corvino, Neblett, ect, didn't sit around debating such nonsense as this...
Instead, they produced WINNERS!


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Eagle said:


> I was being sarcastic and humorous,,,:roll:
> I believe in the Divine, and Providence, ect...but this is not the place for those topics...
> But the fact remains, the breeders years ago, such as Feeley, Corcoran, Shipley, Corvino, Neblett, ect, didn't sit around debating such nonsense as this...
> Instead, they produced WINNERS!


^^ for the most part; right on the money.. however Colby got away from red noses even though a painting of Galtie depicts him a red with a white head and a red nose, many of early white colby dogs had white noses too such as "red and white" Paddy, and Old rose. .. however because they felt the red nose dogs were fight crazy, they got away from red noses by selection of sound game. .. this is from the two colby books summed on the topic. Feely, Lightner, Nebblets all got dogs from or through Colby, from ireland and england right off the boat. Colby's selected black nose over red nose dogs after a while... is all Im saying.. Lightner dropped his red noses and went to his black nose smaller dogs the first register blue IMp II and they failed against the old irish red dogs .. time in and again.


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> ^^ for the most part; right on the money.. however Colby got away from red noses even though a painting of Galtie depicts him a red with a white head and a red nose, many of early white colby dogs had white noses too such as "red and white" Paddy, and Old rose. .. however because they felt the red nose dogs were fight crazy, they got away from red noses by selection of sound game. .. this is from the two colby books summed on the topic. Feely, Lightner, Nebblets all got dogs from or through Colby, from ireland and england right off the boat. Colby's selected black nose over red nose dogs after a while... is all Im saying.. Lightner dropped his red noses and went to his black nose smaller dogs the first register blue IMp II and they failed against the old irish red dogs .. time in and again.


It is my understanding the Colby's culled any RN dogs...Can't say for sure.
JP was one of the best breeders, and yes, many crossed their dogs with them.
However, the Feeley line of dogs was primarily from the Irish dogs...
And as another pointed out, the Old Family Reds were a foundation in todays APBT.
They were one of the "building blocks" of the breed.

The original Blues were the Blue Polls(Pauls) of Scotland. They, like the Old Family Reds, are extinct.
And yes, it was in 1936 at the Oklahoma Convention that marked the end of the "blues" [] days.
Searcy Jeff, an OFRN from the old Lightner stock, beat Colorado Imp II, of the new Lightner stock.
That's what's been written anyway.
However, I wonder if the dogs Lightner produced after leaving the red dogs were even blue.
It is my understanding that they were small, primarily dark brindle dogs. Some say they had Colby blood in them.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Firehazard said:


> ^^ for the most part; right on the money.. however Colby got away from red noses even though a painting of Galtie depicts him a red with a white head and a red nose, many of early white colby dogs had white noses too such as "red and white" Paddy, and Old rose. .. however because they felt the red nose dogs were fight crazy, they got away from red noses by selection of sound game. .. this is from the two colby books summed on the topic. Feely, Lightner, Nebblets all got dogs from or through Colby, from ireland and england right off the boat. Colby's selected black nose over red nose dogs after a while... is all Im saying.. Lightner dropped his red noses and went to his black nose smaller dogs the first register blue IMp II and they failed against the old irish red dogs .. time in and again.


:goodpost: when i have more time i'll contribute to this thread. lol interesting to say the least.


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

Tx Red Dog said:


> I'm getting tried of being timed out. lol


Click on the box when you sign in.
I haven't been timed out since I started doing that.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Eagle said:


> Before the Irish Old Family Reds were imported, the only other red dogs I know of being here in the US are the Lightner dogs.
> So the question is, were the red Lightner dogs in the BN dogs when the imported dogs arrived?
> My assumption is Lightner didn't just hand his dogs out to anyone, and bred them for himself.
> So, since some are saying that both parents must have RN dogs in them, then how did the Old Family dogs produce RN when bred to BN dogs?
> ...


Science is not Gospel there are many theories but there are also many things that have been scientifically proven. You cannot discredit all scientists regardless even in religion there are plenty of unknowns to man we do not have all the answers this is were faith intervenes. Some things will never be proven through science but there are many things that scientists have been able to prove. The study of Genetics is not some new thing that we have just found out about.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Eagle said:


> I was being sarcastic and humorous,,,:roll:
> I believe in the Divine, and Providence, ect...but this is not the place for those topics...
> But the fact remains, the breeders years ago, such as Feeley, Corcoran, Shipley, Corvino, Neblett, ect, didn't sit around debating such nonsense as this...
> Instead, they produced WINNERS!


Just because they didn't sit around back then discussing Genetics does not dismiss the fact that knowing about Genetics is important especially when you are breeding animals. They didn't have the information we have today back then. Had they known what we know today just maybe they would have taken these things into consideration. Winning is important but at what cost? If you are breeding any animal you should be versed in genetics there is no excuse in this day and age not to.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

American_Pit13 said:


> ANY recessive trait has to come from both parents. You CAN NOT express a recessive gene unless it is inherited from both parents. Thats just how genetics work.
> 
> That why its called recessive:hammer:


:goodpost:We are speaking the same language sister! And I challenge any of you on this thread to disprove this I would love to see some references from credible geneticists that states the above is untrue.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't understand how there can be any doubt that you need both parents carrying a recessive gene in order for that recessive gene to show--not just one parent.

This has been scientifically proven and documented. It's like saying gravity is just a theory. No. It's not. Gravity exists and it's real, just like the 2 recessive in order to be dominant.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

k8nkane said:


> I don't understand how there can be any doubt that you need both parents carrying a recessive gene in order for that recessive gene to show--not just one parent.
> 
> This has been scientifically proven and documented. It's like saying gravity is just a theory. No. It's not. Gravity exists and it's real, just like the 2 recessive in order to be dominant.


Girl I have no freaking clue that is why I am getting a bit irritated at this point because I know there are TONS of online genetic references proving this is true to argue with scientific FACT is absolutely ridiculous. And then to discredit all scientists that's just insane. Theory is Theory the above is not theory it's already been proven by experts in the field of genetics. Unless you show me some serious credentials that you are above the rest of the geneticists out there I am going to have to disagree with you.


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## EL CUCO (Jul 25, 2011)

kg420 said:


> That's a cool way of looking at it. What about me One of my parents had blue eyes and the other had brown why on earth am I the only one in the family with green eyes? lol Please don't say the milk man :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


wont say milkman...but i will say "el lechero" ;P

my mom n dad both have brown eyes, yet me n my lil bro both have blue eyes (mind u, we are cuban)

so now...my wife has brown eyes and both my son and daughter have blue eyes...like their poppa  lol


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

For those that doubt:

autosomal recessive inheritance - Google Search


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Sadie said:


> :goodpost:We are speaking the same language sister! And I challenge any of you on this thread to disprove this I would love to see some references from credible geneticists that states the above is untrue.


Recessive does NOT mean that is has to come from BOTH parnets.
Recessive simple means to repeat its self. 
Thus in this case meaning to come forward from its linage.
Recessive does NOT mean both have to have the gene for it to appear.
Come on, this is basic Genetics 101.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> For those that doubt:
> 
> autosomal recessive inheritance - Google Search


An autosome is a chromosome that is not a sex chromosome, or allosome; that is to say, there is an equal number of copies of the chromosome in males and females.[1] For example, in humans, there are 22 pairs of autosomes. In addition to autosomes, there are sex chromosomes, to be specific: X and Y. So, humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes.

Your post pertains to dominate genes which are lost and can not be expressed do to the lack of the ability to be recessive.
This applies more to when a mutation occurs, like when 2 red nose produces a black nose.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Eagle said:


> Before the Irish Old Family Reds were imported, the only other red dogs I know of being here in the US are the Lightner dogs.
> So the question is, were the red Lightner dogs in the BN dogs when the imported dogs arrived?
> My assumption is Lightner didn't just hand his dogs out to anyone, and bred them for himself.
> So, since some are saying that both parents must have RN dogs in them, then how did the Old Family dogs produce RN when bred to BN dogs?
> ...


The first part of your post is where the misconception is.
Lightner wasn't the first to have Irish Old Family dogs. 
They were known to be here in the U.S. back in the 1700's.

LOL but I do like your question of when the first red nose dogs were bred to black nose dogs and still was producing red nose dogs. lmao.
Mutation is a hell of a thing. 
When it occurs, you have to through Genotype out the window.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

BTW I heard last night the Lou passed away. If so RIP.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Tx Red Dog said:


> BTW I heard last night the Lou passed away. If so RIP.





Sadie said:


> Tx redog where is your expertise on genetics coming from? Can you send me something written by a geneticist that states this? Because everything I have read on genetics regarding this has been completely opposite of what you call common knowledge. And while I am not an expert in genetics I am certainly educated and I know how to read and comprehend. So If you would provide me a reference for what your claiming to be true I would like to read it.


Education and experience.
From gene mapping to hands on experience.
I was doing DNA profiling and comparison on dogs, before most who owned this breed, knew it was available.
What I enjoy now is DNA profiling the genetic make up of diseases.
Science right now, IMO, will not be able to cure contagious communicable diseases which is embedded in the DNA..
The best IMO, I think science will come up with first is a vaccine for some of the lesser strain of diseases.

DNA is still ground breaking every day. New things are coming to light.
Kind of hard to buy in to the idea that all hereditary diseases, congenital faults and mutations in the world is cause by the fact that both the mother and father has it present or dominate in the people's genetic makeup.
As was posted, recessive traits can be lost. 
Proof of this is gameness in AST. lol


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

Tx Red Dog said:


> The first part of your post is where the misconception is.
> Lightner wasn't the first to have Irish Old Family dogs.
> They were known to be here in the U.S. back in the 1700's.
> 
> ...


I wondered for some time whether Lightner's dogs were Irish.
I say that because of what Richard S wrote in one of his books,
that they came about in the 1800's....
And I've heard dogs were here in the 1700's.
But if RS is correct, can Lightners dogs be considered Old Family (of Irish origin?)
Or did his red dogs come about in the same way as Old Family dogs,
through tight family breeding?
Having read he didn't like the red nose dogs, it makes me wonder whether or not
they began appearing by surprise to him.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> ^^ for the most part; right on the money.. however Colby got away from red noses even though a painting of Galtie depicts him a red with a white head and a red nose, many of early white colby dogs had white noses too such as "red and white" Paddy, and Old rose. .. however because they felt the red nose dogs were fight crazy, they got away from red noses by selection of sound game. .. this is from the two colby books summed on the topic. Feely, Lightner, Nebblets all got dogs from or through Colby, from ireland and england right off the boat. Colby's selected black nose over red nose dogs after a while... is all I'm saying.. Lightner dropped his red noses and went to his black nose smaller dogs the first register blue IMp II and they failed against the old irish red dogs .. time in and again.


He is right on the money, of the past. First off back in the 1800's education was considered a luxury. Knowing how to read and write for many people didn't come to them until the middle of the 20th century.
Reading pedigrees, etc. just wasn't available for the common man.
Kids today think summer break from school is so they can have a vacation.
It wasn't, it was so the kids could help work the farms. 
In AZ. they're doing away with summer breaks of 2 or 3 months.

Joseph Colby wrote in his book, to restore gameness you breed son to mother, father to daughter, brother to sister.
This was basic genetic compounding of alike genes.
Many back then knew to breed dogs which were game to each other from the same family.
Many didn't know why it work, all they knew is, it did.
Others thought gameness was a will of nature, as others thought it was man created. 
Either or, doesn't much matter so long as the end results was winning.

Bob Neblett lived by me and in his opinion his Irish dogs didn't come from Colby but from Lightner stock of Dan McCoy. This is why he named his dogs with the McCoy name i.e. Neblett's Ch. Bucky McCoy. Bob wasn't from the same generation as Con Feeley, Shipley, Jim Corcoran, etc.

Colby didn't cross Galtie into his dogs until almost 30 years, when he did it was for a cross only, which he felt didn't work out.
Colby and others wanted red nose excluded from the AST. 
But the recessive gene still appears. 
This was true for years with the English Bull Terrier, breeders would cull brindle pups until they finally realized they couldn't for many reasons like, the foundation dog was a English Bulldog crossed with the White English Terrier. Since brindle is the marking of the wild dog and is recessive to all breeds of dogs, the registies started to except them and called them "Party Mixed".
This was also true with Boxers producing white pups.

Also Bill Lightner, BTW was the longest person to own the breed (close to 70 years and was before Colby), lived if I remember right up into the 1960's.
He never got rid of his red nose dogs. This is a story D ick S. writes in his books. 
It is well known he crossed his red nose stock to his black nose stock for a battle cross. 
No one knows for sure but many think he was using Colby dogs in the cross.
This was really creating the breed of the APBT. 
People like my friend Blair Hetrick and others would produce red nose from his Lightner stock. So would Jr. Bush in later years. 
What so many wanted was his stock of earlier years which was mostly of the red stock without the cross.
By 1927 there was very little if any left.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Eagle said:


> I wondered for some time whether Lightner's dogs were Irish.
> I say that because of what Richard S wrote in one of his books,
> that they came about in the 1800's....
> And I've heard dogs were here in the 1700's.
> ...


His family's dogs were around before a lot of others, it is hard to say.
This is why many wanted the breed recognized as a *pure* breed. 
When it wasn't, UKC was created so people could keep track of how dogs were truly bred.
Was his "Pure Irish" stock? Who knows?
But there many others were known to have directly imported the dogs from Ireland.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

Tx Red Dog said:


> Recessive does NOT mean that is has to come from BOTH parnets.
> Recessive simple means to repeat its self.
> Thus in this case meaning to come forward from its linage.
> Recessive does NOT mean both have to have the gene for it to appear.
> Come on, this is basic Genetics 101.


Ok I am still waiting for a credible reference from you that states that both parents do not have to be carriers of the recessive gene for it appear in the offspring ....


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

I'm done, Sadie, sorry. I can't stand trying to explain basic science to someone who refuses to listen and clings to their ignorance. It just makes me mad. I tried to help.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok, one last shot and I'm out.

Carrier - Glossary Entry - Genetics Home Reference

_Definition(s)

An individual who has a recessive, disease-causing allele at a particular locus on one chromosome of a pair and a normal allele at that locus on the other chromosome.

Definition from: GeneTests from the University of Washington and Children's Health System, Seattle

A carrier is an individual who carries and is capable of passing on a genetic mutation associated with a disease and may or may not display disease symptoms. *Carriers are associated with diseases inherited as recessive traits. In order to have the disease, an individual must have inherited mutated alleles from both parents. An individual having one normal allele and one mutated allele does not have the disease.* Two carriers may produce children with the disease.
Definition from: Talking Glossary of Genetic Terms from the National Human Genome Research Institute_

All recessive genes behave the same, whether they're for a disease (like sickle cell anemia) or for a trait (like blue eyes). Both parents need to be carriers in order for it to be expressed since you only get one gene from each parent.

If you have a parent that carries sickle cell anemia (SCA) but the other one doesn't, you can't get it because the complete gene from the non-carrier parent cancels out and is dominant over the mutated gene from the carrier.

Red nose is a recessive trait. Thus you need both parents to be at least a carrier of the recessive gene in order for it to be expressed.

I think what might be confusing you TX is that not every recessive gene is expressed properly when it should be. There are such things as incomplete & codominance.

Incomplete & Codominance

Incomplete: _With incomplete dominance, a cross between organisms with two different phenotypes produces offspring with a third phenotype that is a blending of the parental traits.

It's like mixing paints, red + white will make pink. Red doesn't totally block (dominate) the pink, instead there is incomplete dominance, and we end up with something in-between._

Codominant: _The genetic gist to codominance is pretty much the same as incomplete dominance. A hybrid organism shows a third phenotype --- not the usual "dominant" one & not the "recessive" one ... but a third, different phenotype. With incomplete dominance we get a blending of the dominant & recessive traits so that the third phenotype is something in the middle (red x white = pink).

In COdominance, the "recessive" & "dominant" traits appear together in the phenotype of hybrid organisms._

All of this is basic, basic science. They teach this in grade & high school.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

k8nkane said:


> Ok, one last shot and I'm out.
> 
> Carrier - Glossary Entry - Genetics Home Reference
> 
> ...




Yes mamn Tx it's clear your not going to admit that this is the case in any event not worth arguing about for another day. Believe what you want .....


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> Ok, one last shot and I'm out.
> Carrier - Glossary Entry - Genetics Home Reference
> 
> _Definition(s)
> ...


:goodpost: Kane! Man this thread is giving me a headache looking through all of this just because its going back and forth back and forth and its all the same stuff.

Okay can someone tell me whats the question now?


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## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Wow I didn't even realize this was being debated LMAO!


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Tx Red Dog said:


> Recessive does NOT mean that is has to come from BOTH parnets.
> Recessive simple means to repeat its self.
> Thus in this case meaning to come forward from its linage.
> Recessive does NOT mean both have to have the gene for it to appear.
> Come on, this is basic Genetics 101.


This was the "question", KM.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry, TX. I forgot--there are times when recessive traits (expressed as diseases) CAN be passed with only one carrier. These are known as X-linked diseases.

X-linked diseases | The Human Genome

_Like autosomal single gene disorders, X-linked diseases can be either recessive or dominant. X-linked recessive diseases include red-green colour blindness, haemophilia and the Duchenne and Becker forms of muscular dystrophy (both of which involve mutations in the DMD gene). These diseases are much more common in males than females because two copies of the mutant allele are required for the disease to occur in females, while only one copy is required in males._

These are a select few recessive diseases however, that are expressed with only one carrier because they're attached to the X chromosome. This doesn't apply to the majority of diseases and you certainly can't generalize this to all recessive traits.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

haha okay..
Recessive (gene) is going to refer to an allele that causes a phenotype (visible or detectable characteristic) that is only seen in a homozygous genotype (an organism that has two copies of the same allele). Every dog has two copies of every gene, one from dam and one from sire. If a genetic trait is recessive, a dog only needs to inherit two copies of the gene for the trait to be expressed. So if both dam and sire have to be carriers of a recessive trait in order for a pup to express that trait it is theoretically impossible for a pup to display ___ gene if only one of the two was carriers. If both are carriers there is a % that the fully litter may not display this however we would be going further complicated than the subject needs to go through..

I saw more talk on the red nose topic so..

"The red nose in our breed is produced from the Locus B pair with the homozygous recessive (bb) genotype in combination with the (Ay-) genotype. Mating two dogs with the genotype (bb) the result would be 100% of the pups having red noses (bb). If a pup with a black nose was produced in one of my litters where both parents had red noses, then DNA testing with parentage verification would be necessary to determine the actual sire to the black nose pup. New alleles can be produced through mutation, but proof of parentage would have to be determined using DNA to rule out a duel sired litter."

Now if you want to discredit Amy for the work she has done we can go over ever documented study of genetics in both k9 and humans if time would allow such an extensive on going topic. Very few i have seen over the years have discredited scientists as well as others findings that support the basic foundation and i have never seen anyone come back with a reputable source or find that backs up such theories.

This is extremely basic genetic stems here people, if we want to talk about the rarity of mutation we can however generally when we are talking about mutation in genes it does not just effect color but a number of genetic factors that the end result is a physical deformity.. Also we can go even further and discuss how mutation in any gene can also cause destruction in the brain, though more on the "rare" side but never the less.

This is a basic topic with almost as basic answer, the further you complicate things the more that can go wrong especially in discussion of genetic make up.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

I have learned alot in this post. I have never studied genetics and I always thought the black nose if bred to a rednose would take over and the pups are blacknosed dogs. Now, after hearing it, it makes sense that some pups might have the recessive trait, thus being reds... knowing the strain is only in most apbt and not a "pure" anymore (a handful have the purest) and also knowing dna may pop out anytime in any dog. Are there dogs that are considered OFRN that come from dogs that arent, because of a POP in dna from 3,4,or 5 gens back, or farther.??



Tx Red Dog said:


> Education and experience.
> From gene mapping to hands on experience.
> I was doing DNA profiling and comparison on dogs, before most who owned this breed, knew it was available.
> What I enjoy now is DNA profiling the genetic make up of diseases.
> ...


 But this way of thinking, being able to have a "game" AST is not possible. I think the diseases, and faults dont need to have both parents to pass, and I dont think both parents have to have the OFRN strain within them to be able to pass it either. Im no expert, its just IMHO... that I believe any form of the makeup of either dogs dna may come out in any of the pups if it wants to.



Tx Red Dog said:


> BTW I heard last night the Lou passed away. If so RIP.


...... :rain:

PS (I think this should be a sticky.. its very informative  )


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

HeavyJeep said:


> Are there dogs that are considered OFRN that come from dogs that arent, because of a POP in dna from 3,4,or 5 gens back, or farther.??
> 
> I think the diseases, and faults dont need to have both parents to pass


1. A red nose dog is different than OFRN. OFRN is a BLOODLINE, whereas red nose dogs just refers to the color of their nose.

If you get a dog that pops out with a red nose, it doesn't automatically make them an OFRN. It just makes them a dog with a red nose.

Kane came from two black-nosed dogs. He has a red nose. He is in no way, shape, or form an OFRN, even if it was several generations back in his pedigree because his breeders weren't trying to maintain the OFRN bloodline.

2. Diseases/recessive traits and faults are two different things. Faults can come from one parent or both; that's typically what good breeders aim to correct with one parent. If the dam has bad stifles, you breed to a sire with good stifles hoping to correct it (hoping the pups will take after the sire). Recessive diseases and traits are DEPENDENT on there being another defective gene in order to express themselves.

And now that I read that back to myself, hopefully that last bit wasn't too confusing? And maybe KM can explain it better?


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

Most definately.. I totally understand the difference between a RN dog, and a OFRN.


My Angel came from two black nosed dogs and she IS considered an OFRN. 
I was pushing my curiosity.. I love and thrive on answers and the educated opinions of others  keep it comin everyone


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> 1. A red nose dog is different than OFRN. OFRN is a BLOODLINE, whereas red nose dogs just refers to the color of their nose.
> 
> If you get a dog that pops out with a red nose, it doesn't automatically make them an OFRN. It just makes them a dog with a red nose.
> 
> ...


Well depending on the "fault", disorder, etc if its known any responsible breeder wouldn't breed that dog as breeding should be held for those advancing in some for or another the breed...now there are exceptions but this is going to vary strictly on what we are speaking of perhaps if you went into more detail i could understand a little more.. But this is where culling comes into play. Im not 100% if thats what your talking about or if your talking more genetic, i don't have time right now but ill come back to this later and go into more details if needed.

Otherwise though, good post.


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## HeavyJeep (May 7, 2011)

oh my.. I didnt even realize there was a ninth page. shoulda read more Im a bit behind/ I still have some un-answered questions in mine though


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

KMdogs said:


> Well depending on the "fault", disorder, etc if its known any responsible breeder wouldn't breed that dog as breeding should be held for those advancing in some for or another the breed...now there are exceptions but this is going to vary strictly on what we are speaking of perhaps if you went into more detail i could understand a little more.


I was talking about a breeder's program. If I have a dam that I know has bad stifles, I want to look for a sire with good stifles to (hopefully) balance that out in my future puppies. Just because I have a dam with a few faults doesn't necessarily mean she isn't worth breeding from, as long as the dam+sire combo are pushing the breed forward. I'm not talking about a genetics-level issue (say, congenital heart disease, hereditary cataracts, etc).


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> I was talking about a breeder's program. If I have a dam that I know has bad stifles, I want to look for a sire with good stifles to (hopefully) balance that out in my future puppies. Just because I have a dam with a few faults doesn't necessarily mean she isn't worth breeding from, as long as the dam+sire combo are pushing the breed forward. I'm not talking about a genetics-level issue (say, congenital heart disease, hereditary cataracts, etc).


If thats the case i would agree with you then if that was something a breeder wanted to do though i would disagree with that particular situation completely, reason being if a dog doesn't have the ability to prove themselves how does one know the dog is worthy of being breed? If meets physical breed standards thats great but we aren't talking about show dogs here. Usually bad stifles (as in your example) would be known prior to being fully matured and able to work, usually this is known during puppy growth.


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## Eagle (Jun 6, 2011)

k8nkane said:


> 1. A red nose dog is different than OFRN. OFRN is a BLOODLINE, whereas red nose dogs just refers to the color of their nose.


No, *OFRN is NOT a BLOODLINE, it is a STRAIN.*

But you are correct, just because a dog has a red nose, it does not make them an OFRN dog.
I believe much of this is covered in another section, so won't post up more.


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## Sadie (Jun 18, 2008)

He's right about that Ofrn is a strain.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

:goodpost:'s 

according to colby and stratton.. yep the books.. the game dog is a bloodline. colby is a strain, OFRN a strain (stemming from OFR), norrod is a bloodline, morgans is a bloodline, Colby is also a bloodline (that 100+yrs of lineage for ya old enough to be both inwhich most OFRN stem from even lightner got dogs through and from Colby they had irish dogs right off the boat) Dibo is a strain, tudors a bloodline, alligator is a strain Hammonds is a bloodline, its confusing at first but then its all common sense.


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## k8nkane (Jul 9, 2010)

Whoops, my bad guys, lol. Thanks.


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## KMdogs (Apr 22, 2011)

Ah didn't catch that, haha. Well i think we are all in the same boat aside from tx anyway when it comes to the genetic talk?


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

and that boat has sunk.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

k8nkane said:


> Whoops, my bad guys, lol. Thanks.


Nice thread. lol
I too have done work at MSU.
I also got much information from them, as you have here, over the years as well as they have from me.
The old joke around there was they were going to dedicate a placket in my name. lol
I am glad you finally realize about what I said of passing from one side.
BTW next time you are @ Dr. Schultz clinic, listen and you might learn a thing or two.
I'm the one who brought into him some of the first DNA profile APBT.
I also advised him many years ago about doing transcervical A.I.
I also had the dog, his clinic collected most from of any breed. lol
As I too taught Eagle the difference between a bloodline and a strain which for someone who so well versed in genetics you should have known.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

BTW the next time you are over at MSU go into the "Large Animal Clinic"
and speak to someone who knows about American Quarter Horses.
Have them explain to you in depth *Fatal Mutation* when you breed certain colors.
Then you will understand you don't always need to have the fatal gene in both sides of the parents.
While you are there, have them also explain how and what colors you breed to get a Palomino Horse and why 2 Palomino Horses won't produce the same color. 

P.S. oh I am so pass the copying and pasting for people's Google intellectual self promotion.


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## Tx Red Dog (Jun 14, 2009)

Firehazard said:


> :goodpost:'s
> 
> according to colby and stratton.. yep the books.. the game dog is a bloodline. colby is a strain, OFRN a strain (stemming from OFR), norrod is a bloodline, morgans is a bloodline, Colby is also a bloodline (that 100+yrs of lineage for ya old enough to be both inwhich most OFRN stem from even lightner got dogs through and from Colby they had irish dogs right off the boat) Dibo is a strain, tudors a bloodline, alligator is a strain Hammonds is a bloodline, its confusing at first but then its all common sense.


I can agree with this post but I would like to point out when John P. was starting his breeding, I think people like him, Lightner and others, the breed was, some what still being created or sould I say at least still being standardized.


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## Firehazard (Dec 4, 2009)

Tx Red Dog said:


> I can agree with this post but I would like to point out when John P. was starting his breeding, I think people like him, Lightner and others, the breed was, some what still being created or sould I say at least still being standardized.


good point.. Standardized .. well put; thats exactly what happen in a nutshell. ..


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