# Blue dogs



## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

I noticed in the Razors Edge thread that someone had asked why certain people dont like blue dogs. I never saw their question answered and wanted to give an explanation as to why theyre unliked by some.

The blue color came from the AmStaff. If you look back in a blue dogs pedigree, it will indicate which dogs were amstaffs. Most old timers(and some new timers), typically game dog fans dont like them simply because of that fact. They want a dog thats straight pit, with no other type of blood in the pedigree. They feel that a blue dog will not have the "gameness" that their dogs do. I believe this to not be totally true.

We have and have had quite a few blue dogs. Our ch. puller Jax is an example of an awesome blue dog. If he's at a weight he cant pull, he will hit it, back up(bark a couple times) and hit it again never giving up. Thats what I consider game, a dog that never quits. Go to any weight pull and youre sure to see some very impressive blue dogs. I have heard of blue dogs that were fighting champions as well.

Its a little harder when you get to the show ring though. Most judges are old time dogmen who will not pick a blue dog to save their life. No matter how perfect their confirmation is. They will pick a red or black dog everytime. I believe thats why the adba started the fun class for best blue nose. It dosent count for points but it gives blue dog owners a chance to compete.

Hope this post helped someone out in some way.


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

another reason is definetly due to the fact of people breeding blues that look nothing like a traditional apbt but more like a low wide bulldog,usually these dogs pedigrees are incredablely shallow,i seen one dog thats pedigree wasnt but 2 generations deep,the third just said notorious juan gotti?
rock creek kennels,
I agree the blue mainly came from am staff,although in some of the more exagerated strains it is rumored that some neo mastiff and bandogge have been used, as well as bulldog strains,of course these strains are way out of conframation and bred specificaly for looks,these are probably the dogs that will be registered as am bullys...


----------



## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ok, Thanks for that.... Harleys bro is blue.... Awwwww man!!! He is simply beautiful!!!!!!! His name is "Blue Wolf" I wanted him so bad, she wouldnt give him up... Hahaha, but i got Harley and that was the best thing that coulda happened!! But unfortunatly Harley dont have papers, i could get em, but whats the point.. They told me his lines, and im good with that... I dont see what the whole paper thing is anyway.. If ya wanna breed, like a kennel then ya need them.. But i dont need to have papers.. Harleys my pet....:cheers:


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

cane76 said:


> another reason is definetly due to the fact of people breeding blues that look nothing like a traditional apbt but more like a low wide bulldog,usually these dogs pedigrees are incredablely shallow,i seen one dog thats pedigree wasnt but 2 generations deep,the third just said notorious juan gotti?
> rock creek kennels,
> I agree the blue mainly came from am staff,although in some of the more exagerated strains it is rumored that some neo mastiff and bandogge have been used, as well as bulldog strains,of course these strains are way out of conframation and bred specificaly for looks,these are probably the dogs that will be registered as am bullys...


Can we please stay off the ambully topic in this thread.

As far as papers go, they are for breeding, show & pull purposes. If youre not planning on breeding or showing, you'll probably never use them. Its just nice to know the history of your dog.


----------



## Shadyw (Feb 21, 2006)

Not to throw a monkey wrench in but I've been in the American Staffordshire and APBT circuit from the mid 70's. It had been said that a well known breeder of Am.Staffs had an accidental breeding of a Am.Staff bitch and Weimaraner, but registered it as a purebred litter of Am.Staffs. This person took the secret to their death bed with the exception of telling only one other person, who is dead now too. That is why I'd never own a dog with any Ruffian blood in them. I could see where the blue came from outta this breeding.


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

interesting...


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

One thing i do find hard to believe is that one out cross to wiemeraner would result in a whole slough of blue dogs,there must be more to it than that...Weimeraner am staff cross,that sucks...


----------



## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

Even still if that happened, it happened so long ago, so it would be bred outta the dog. At least a gorgeous colour of dog came outta that!!!! If it did happen!!!


----------



## bully (May 27, 2006)

The blue color comes from a diluted black gene and has been seen in the APBT for many years but alot of the older dogmen would cull them because they considered it a genetic defect but there has been some controversy over a great match dog named CH Going Light Barney some say he was a blue dog and some say he was brindle. Richard Stratton seen this dog several times and has written stories about him and confirms that he was blue.


----------



## Jenny Poo (Oct 30, 2005)

cane76 said:


> another reason is definetly due to the fact of people breeding blues that look nothing like a traditional apbt but more like a low wide bulldog,usually these dogs pedigrees are incredablely shallow,i seen one dog thats pedigree wasnt but 2 generations deep,the third just said notorious juan gotti?
> rock creek kennels,
> I agree the blue mainly came from am staff,although in some of the more exagerated strains it is rumored that some neo mastiff and bandogge have been used, as well as bulldog strains,of course these strains are way out of conframation and bred specificaly for looks,these are probably the dogs that will be registered as am bullys...


Notorious Juan Gotty is the bomb!..also an ancestor to my Zeus.. but that's just my opinion .. lol


----------



## littleboyblue (Feb 19, 2006)

*well*

even though Chic ois mainly Chaos/watchdog his great grandfather is Juan gotty on the bottom side nad I can assure you the pedigree dont end there..LOL it goes back another 5 generations...just on the copy I have


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

bully said:


> The blue color comes from a diluted black gene and has been seen in the APBT for many years but alot of the older dogmen would cull them because they considered it a genetic defect but there has been some controversy over a great match dog named CH Going Light Barney some say he was a blue dog and some say he was brindle. Richard Stratton seen this dog several times and has written stories about him and confirms that he was blue.


going lights barney was a white brindle,
the comparision stratton made to going lights barney and the blue dogs was basically this,dont count them out,folks questioned barneys gameness since most of his matches only lasted about 20min since he was so punishing,plus he lost a bout under the assumtion of posioning,his keeper had the decency to keep him alive after his loss,and he went on tho fight some 2 hour fights,his gameness was proven and he went on to become a legend,actually i also misinturpreted strattons artical also,and only after viewing color photos of barney and rereading the artical i realized the error in my ways...


----------



## Rock Creek Kennels (Oct 25, 2006)

I've heard and often wondered about the Weimaraner breeding. I've defiently seen some blue dogs that looked like a Weimaraner. Thats for sure a possibility. Thats why the only blue dogs we have are Collett or Collett/Falins.

Ive also heard about blue game dogs of the past but have never heard any real info on them.


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Shadyw said:


> Not to throw a monkey wrench in but I've been in the American Staffordshire and APBT circuit from the mid 70's. It had been said that a well known breeder of Am.Staffs had an accidental breeding of a Am.Staff bitch and Weimaraner, but registered it as a purebred litter of Am.Staffs. This person took the secret to their death bed with the exception of telling only one other person, who is dead now too. That is why I'd never own a dog with any Ruffian blood in them. I could see where the blue came from outta this breeding.


im very interested in this,can you give us any more info on this,how much of this weimaraner breeding is known to others,im trying to research this and get to the bottom of it,
thanx man...im also taking this question to other sites..


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

found this photo on another site from 1964,blue am staff...


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Cane thats cool, did you get a name?


----------



## pantera2006 (Feb 25, 2006)

WOW!!!! That is a nice a$$ dog!!!


----------



## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

Beautiful dog!


----------



## TashasLegend (Jun 7, 2006)

That dog is beautiful!


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

*note the first half of this post was cut and paste from a diffrent site,not by me....*
Ch Lylane Blue Tango, bred and owned by Elizabeth Tregoning. This is an illustration in a little paperback book I own called "How to Raise and Train a Staffordshire Terrier", by Edwin E. Rosenblum, copyrighted 1964. (note that this is less than 30 years after they started being registered by the AKC) Lots of nice photos in the book, also including this pretty fawn: 
keith says:
Yes that dog is beautiful,thats one thing nobody can argue against,a blue pit or staff within conframation is a sight to see,very stiriking...Im finding out alot of cool info ill post on the history of these blue dogs and were there coming from[the pure ones of course]later today...


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a 
Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was 
sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported 
Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who 
was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. 
As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to 
the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American 
Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit 
dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian 
line. 

And it is said that all these dogs stemed from the scottish bluepaul,a foundation bred used in the modern apbt and am staff,its all very interesting,so the blue found in the am staff could actually be from tudors black jack, who inherited the trait from his sire and daim,who inherited this trait from the scottish bluepaul...It seems as if this is not speculation but actual fact,still who knows about the wiemeranaer theroy,it could be true....


----------



## Shadyw (Feb 21, 2006)

That dog is Am. Staff CH. Lylane Blue Tango born 1958 I think. She was a dark gun metal blue not a dilute. I believed named after a song not because of her color. She produced black puppies and her father was black. She goes back to the old Ruffian & on the sire side is Tudor Jack II & on the mother's side too a little furter back. That is about as far back I went for now. I'm at work so I can only jump on during my breaks. I was earlier referring to some of the diluted blues of which we see today when I spoke about the Weimaraner incident.

Check out: www.pawvillage.com

You can trace some of the Am. Staffs back pretty far Ü

Jumped back on, check out Henry's Imported Richmond pic on there. 
He so looks like the English White Terrier. Possibly could be Ü


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> I have heard of blue dogs that were fighting champions as well.
> QUOTE]the dog your speaking of was turpins blue trouble who was also a show dog and matched 3 times and won all 3,the matches were reported and recorded by the sdj,but the ch rank was rejected because it was said his opponents were soft.....


----------



## sw_df27 (Feb 16, 2007)

All that is very Interesting I would like to know more myself.........up:


----------



## cherol (Jan 7, 2007)

I've heard in a few places that "notoriuos juan gotti" was mixed????


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

that is rumored for sure...


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

lol.......


----------



## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

Lol........


----------



## cherol (Jan 7, 2007)

I just didn't know if anyone knew if there is truth behind it or not.... I don't know anyone who cares for "those types" of pits (if you want to call them that)...so I didn't know if they were just being biased against them or what....


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

it's definetly a hybrid line of dogs,and gotti was basically a big blue am staff i believe.


----------



## BlueScarFace (Apr 2, 2007)

Rock Creek Kennels said:


> I noticed in the Razors Edge thread that someone had asked why certain people dont like blue dogs. I never saw their question answered and wanted to give an explanation as to why theyre unliked by some.
> 
> The blue color came from the AmStaff. If you look back in a blue dogs pedigree, it will indicate which dogs were amstaffs. Most old timers(and some new timers), typically game dog fans dont like them simply because of that fact. They want a dog thats straight pit, with no other type of blood in the pedigree. They feel that a blue dog will not have the "gameness" that their dogs do. I believe this to not be totally true.
> 
> ...


:clap: :clap: :woof: : :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Great Post ! :thumbsup: I like to hear people talk good about blue dogs. Thats the only color dog I will own & Breed. Great Post ! 

Do you have pics of Jax ?

My boy :woof: is 3 weeks old and I cant wait to get him to the show.


----------



## BlueScarFace (Apr 2, 2007)

Jenny Poo said:


> Notorious Juan Gotty is the bomb!..also an ancestor to my Zeus.. but that's just my opinion .. lol


:clap: 
I Agree with you on that.


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

heres a question when do you consider a dog to be am staff? most old dog men have to have straight laced game breed APBT for it to be a true APBT. but what about... lets say the tnt line that dose has amstaff blood. at what percentage of aam staff blood in a APBT pedigree is the limit untill there AM staffs? i hope this makes since to you all. and technically since they are seperate breeds (seperating the fact that they can be duel registered) do you think this would be considered a mix dog? i just thought of this up thinking of how pissed off people get about dogs like juan gotti and how there muts.


----------



## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

*Color to me is just color.
IMO, color has nothing to do with with the capability in a dog, but depends more on how the dog is bred. Of coure is souly breed for the blue color and not for perfomance, your gonna loose a few important things. People get way too hung up in color they loose the real insight on breeding.
I've seen some pretty gamey 'blue' dogs in my 26 years of life to know just because a dog is blue does mean a thing. My bro hunts with a few blue dogs and they can out perform some of his.... i guess you could call 'traditional colored' APBT's.....lol

It just makes me laugh when i hear someone say blue 'APBTs' can't be gamey :stick: 
I've meet a few judges that wouldn't CH a blue dog cause it was blue (they IMO shouldn't be a judge). I've seen the same judge almost shit a brick cause a blue dog outpulled Buckskin colored dog. I was hilarious cause that judge was HOT!! Pissed off!! I wanted to run over there a yell na na na na boo boo and stick my tongue out at him!  *


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

I was at the GA APBT fun show a couple of weeks ago and saw a blue dog compete in conformation. The dog was all blue with a little white on it's chest. I can tell you the dog didn't look like a big blue hippo....this dog was taller and lean! It looked like a true APBT per the standard. I can also tell you the people that owned it fought their dogs. They approached me and my dog asking all sorts of questions....."do you condition her" etc. When they brought out one of their bitches and she had holes all over her face I knew for sure what their agenda was. Never the less, their blue dog was CONDITIONED to the bone! 

I think the problem is most of the "bully breed" dogs are blue. They are bred that way for money. People see this breed which is mixed with other breeds and they automatically assume the worst about any blue dog. 

I can tell you the blue dog I saw was all APBT. Not a 110lb 28" head mixed breed.


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

ive noticed that game bred blues are a differnt tone of blue than the bullies, there more gun meatal grey in color.


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Your exactly right....thats how I would describe it. Almost a shiney tone to it....but definitely blue. Type wise is what I'm most concerned with and it definitely was all APBT. You have to outcross to get the massive bone structure you see in the bully breed. We've all seen them low ride and others that look more like Presas and mastiffs. That isn't what conformation in this breed is about. I am glad they are finally getting their own name...."bully breed". Nothing wrong with creating a new breed I suppose, just don't sell it as an already established one. :stick:


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

stafs have a heavy bone structure than do APBT and staffs cam from APBT so you dont have to outcross to get a biger bone mass.


----------



## BlueScarFace (Apr 2, 2007)

I don't really like the "bully's" they really do give APBT a bad rap. My boy is just 3 weeks old and he is a APBT (*check the profile*). He is not a bully but he most definitely is a blue. When I look on his pedigree I don't find any cross breeding and all the Pictures I've seen from the pedigree are of APBT. I'm going to be entering him in to CH Shows as well as Weight Pulling and maybe even Agility. I hope I don't get DISCRIMINATED :stick: against just because he is a blue .


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

wheezie said:


> ive noticed that game bred blues are a differnt tone of blue than the bullies, there more gun meatal grey in color.


one things for sure,there has never been one ch pitdog that was blue,thats gotta say something,no dog with the chance of being a champ was ever culled for any reason,even human aggresion,thats why there has been man biting ch and grch dogs,because they could win and make there owner $$$ period.....


----------



## Judy (Dec 12, 2005)

gamecock10 said:


> I was at the GA APBT fun show a couple of weeks ago and saw a blue dog compete in conformation. The dog was all blue with a little white on it's chest. I can tell you the dog didn't look like a big blue hippo....this dog was taller and lean! It looked like a true APBT per the standard. I can also tell you the people that owned it fought their dogs. They approached me and my dog asking all sorts of questions....."do you condition her" etc. When they brought out one of their bitches and she had holes all over her face I knew for sure what their agenda was. Never the less, their blue dog was CONDITIONED to the bone!
> 
> I think the problem is most of the "bully breed" dogs are blue. They are bred that way for money. People see this breed which is mixed with other breeds and they automatically assume the worst about any blue dog.
> 
> I can tell you the blue dog I saw was all APBT. Not a 110lb 28" head mixed breed.


They brought a dog to the show with holes in her face??? Was it bad?


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Yeah it was pretty bad. It looked like someone had stepped on her face with golf shoes on. They were all healed of course, but the hair had not grown back. Plus she was CONDITIONED and acting like she would have killed any dog there if she had gotten lose. When they brought her out I was sort of embarrassed. I played it off but my wife was pretty pissed.


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Wheezie,

Amstaffs are not 110lbs with 28" heads....that's the kind of "bone" I was speaking of.


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

> there has never been one ch pitdog that was blue


http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=8214
So I guess you are on that bandwagon now huh?


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i still wana know an awnser to this........... heres a question when do you consider a dog to be am staff? most old dog men have to have straight laced game breed APBT for it to be a true APBT. but what about... lets say the tnt line that dose has amstaff blood. at what percentage of aam staff blood in a APBT pedigree is the limit untill there AM staffs? i hope this makes since to you all. and technically since they are seperate breeds (seperating the fact that they can be duel registered) do you think this would be considered a mix dog? i just thought of this up thinking of how pissed off people get about dogs like juan gotti and how there muts.


----------



## Crown Royal (Oct 20, 2006)

I just started a new thread before reading your last post. Didn't mean to hijack ya'll. If a blue is an Am Staff or a mutt then why is that dog listed as a APBT on the pedigree?


----------



## quaterboy22 (Nov 12, 2006)

boudourx skull was bred back to his daughter , she was half friso , they had a blu son ghost , 3/4 boudourx 1/4 frisco


----------



## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

quaterboy22 said:


> boudourx skull was bred back to his daughter , she was half friso , they had a blu son ghost , 3/4 boudourx 1/4 frisco


WoW, Im very impressed with the research. I still want to here the answer to wheezies question, when do you consider a dog to be an Am Staff, or what percentage of blood in an apbt pedigree is the limit until they are amstaff? are they just mixed breed?


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

They're already the same breed so the only thing you would be mixing are the characteristics focused on over time by AKC show breeders and APBT performance breeders. It would be like breeding a field trial lab to an AKC show lab. Same breed bred for different characteristics within the same breed. I don't see a problem with this depending on what your breeding goals are. 

How in the world would you be mixing different breeds when the AKC took a few APBT's and simply re-named them American Staffordshire Terriers? No outcrosses have been done....only selective breeding for certain characteristics within the same breed. Now if they had taken the APBT and crossed it over time with another breed then yes, you would eventually create a seperate breed. But that didn't happen.


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

in my opinion they are 2 seperate breeds.


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

30 some odd years of diferent breeding practices have made the AST a seperate breed from the APBT


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

This same discussion goes on in most of the AKC working breed forums about their respective breeds. Show stock vs. working stock. Doesn't really matter what breed your talking about, when you have two camps producing a certain breed for different reasons and different results, your always going to have division. 

My (opinion) is they are the same "breed" with a different name in only ONE resgistry (fact). Those "Amstaffs" are UKC and ADBA APBT conformation champions. The AKC is the one with a "name" issue.

A game bred APBT is different in type and temperament than an AKC show ring Amstaff. Just like a field trial lab or golden is very different in type and temperament than an AKC show ring dog. Two different camps, different breeding philosophy, same breed.


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

OldFortKennels said:


> http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=8214
> So I guess you are on that bandwagon now huh?


not at all,thats a real good line of dog,but it wasnt given a ch title,you know that....


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

cane76 said:


> not at all,thats a real good line of dog,but it wasnt given a ch title,you know that....


i believe i remeber hearing about the controversy with that dog


----------



## ericschevy (Nov 10, 2006)

cane76 said:


> not at all,thats a real good line of dog,but it wasnt given a ch title,you know that....


CH Title from the [ ] ??


----------



## tori (Apr 9, 2007)

thanks for the insight about blue dogs . it's interesting.


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

*this is old,but hear it is again...*
this info is taken from another site[game-dog]from member "abk"
I knew Trouble & his owner personally. We once got 2 dogs from ST.

Turpin's Blu Trouble (yes, his name is spelled "blu trouble" not "blue trouble") is a blue & white staff cross. His weight is 64lbs was whelped around the early to mid '90s.

He is sired Noble's Blaze of Glory, a dog of pure AmStaff breeding & out of Minter's Miss Sheba, who was Watchdog/Art bred. I did the figures once & found that Trouble is about 3/4ths staff.

The TNT line from S. Turpin was based on Blu Trouble & his mother Sheba.

Trouble is pointed in both weight pull & the conformation ring. He is also a 3xw but the overwhelming majority of serious fanciers think the reports were faked b/c Trouble looked untouched. In fact, the former owner of the SDJ flat out refused to give Trouble a CH. certificate even though all his goes were SDJ reported b/c Trouble looked "too clean."

As a side note, both myself & my spouse have seen Trouble in pics, on video & in person & in every instance he was as clean as a whistle.

Plus, the game dog fraternity got suspicious b/c she only claimed to hunt dogs after her & RB got into it over the subject of pit bulls vs. staffs. She never claimed to hunt dogs before that, but after that she began reporting all these wins on her dogs.

However, I got it straight from S.Turpin herself that the goes were legit, BUT ... she hooked into the 1st dog that came along, so all her early goes - to include all of Trouble's - were against cotton ball dogs that Trouble just bowled over. That & good aftercare would account for his untouched appearance.

But even if the goes were legit, serious doggers still scorn the line b/c his 3 wins were into do-nothing dogs. It would be like taking my old staff mix dog & putting her on a hunt card against a German shepherd & calling it a win. I mean, she was hunting again Chinaman dogs coming in at 62lbs. Give me a break.

The good news is that ST did learn from that. She has sinced begun paying more attention to detail. Some reputable dogmen saw her most recent champion, a dog named Grim go & had nothing but good things to say about him. But that may be b/c Grim is a black dog. If he were blue, the reviews may have come back different.

An interesting side note - now that ST has put more emphasis on true gameness, she is producing fewer & fewer blues in her program as well.

Most other blue lines are overdone, non-standard leash orniments that don't have the drive to catch a mouse. And most carry health defects to boot. The Turpin line however is for the most part conformation correct, healthy & drivey. But I wouldn't consider it a "gamedog" line & I would put little to no stock in the wins posted on the Turpin/TNT dogs.

But if you're into blues IMO it's one of the best blue lines out there, even though it is staff bred. The only other blue blood I'd place above it might be the blue Skull dogs & the Talamo blood.

Hope this helps!
__________________


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

so if its staff bred why is it conisidered APBT?


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

wheezie said:


> so if its staff bred why is it conisidered APBT?


because a "akc" registered am staff can be duel registered with the ukc as a apbt,no matter what bloodline it is or type...


----------



## redog (Oct 14, 2005)

awesome!!!!!!!:cheers:


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

Wheezie, I could take Rebel or any of my dogs for that matter to the AKC and they would call them AMSTAFFS. Same dog but thats what they would call the dogs because the wont recognize the APBT. Same dog, on registry APBT, the other AMSTAFF>


----------



## wheezie (Aug 4, 2006)

i understand that andy, but you yourself have said that you sonsider am staff and apbt to be sepertaed breeds considering there years of different breeding practices. what im saying is wouldnt that technically make them mix breeds? if someone came up to you you and asked what kind of dog is that, what do you say? i mean it has amstaff blood so wouldnt you say amstaff.


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Without mixing in blood from another breed it isn't possible to have a mixed breed. That's what the "mixed" implies, "mixed" blood. 

Different breeding practices over the years wouldn't create a different breed, only a different "type". You see this in virtually every breed. The AKC is the only registry that doesn't recognize the APBT name. They didn't want the fighting stigma so they gave it a different name (makes me wonder why they didn't re-name the Akita  ). 

If I walked into the AKC show ring with a field trial lab I wouldn't stand a chance. Same breed but different breed type. Unless there is outcrossing you can't truly have a "mixed" breed.

Same blood with certain character traits hightened by different breeding agendas over the years. (Show vs. performance)


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

I wouldnt consider Rebel and Amstaff, however it is in his blood. If you look at the amstaff from today and the APBT you can see a difference. This is why Im saying it gets muddy, Rebel looks APBT but take him to the AKC and he is now AMSTAFF so who is to say now.

Usually Amstaff has the features of the APBT but Smaller and somewhat heavier. The Amstaff is the show dog of the pit world. The APBT is the athlete, not saying Amstaffs arent, they are in NO WAY comparable to the Bullys. AKC show people have amstaffs, ADBA people have APBT's.


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Exactly


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10(makes me wonder why they didn't re-name the Akita :rolleyes: ).
[/QUOTE said:


> one reason for this is the akita isnt a modern fighting dog,it reign as japans primery gladiator was ended by the tosa over a 100 years ago...and the tosa still isnt a recognized breed to the akc,possably because of its used only as a fighting dog and guard...


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Good point on the history of the Akita, although a lot are still very DA to this day. 

Just to show how biased and hypocritical the AKC is, they have the Tosa listed as one of their Foundation Stock Service Breeds. This is the first step to eventual (it's a looong road) AKC recognition. The Tosa is actively fought in Japan and around the world today! In fact if you go to any Tosa board your bound to find discussions such as "who's the better fighter, Tosa or APBT?". They are a fierce fighting dog with extreme DA.

Look out Tosa owners, if the AKC accepts them they'll surely demand a name change! :angeldevi


----------



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

My 2 cents on blues. Blue is a color that has been over done. It probly would not bring up the questions it does if it where not for the 1000's of 'rare' blue breeders out there. Alot of blues have been inbred over and over to get complete blue litters with complete blue backgrounds which tend to produce deeper darker blues. My dogs have blue's in thier backgrounds and will throw blues in every litter if bred to a dog that carrys blue, but always change to lighter blues later in life than when born because of no "heavy" blue breedings in my lines. About 'PR' NOTORIOUS JUAN GOTTY he is Purple Ribbon bred saying that he has atleast 126 UKC registered ancestors. according to the ADBA he is BARAJAS NTRIOUS JUAN GOTTY. Juan Gotty was bred from GRAY LINES RAIDER II and GRAY LINES CALLEE LOVE BLUEGD. His parents are both American Pitbull Terriers not Amstaffs. The ADBA marks dogs that are Amstaff with a * on you ADBA pedigrees. As far as his parents and farther down I can't say wether they where amstaff or not. I own 2 females that have Juan Gotty as their 3rd sire. I have included below pics of my 2 females and Juan Gotty.


----------



## Midwest Bully (May 10, 2006)

*AmericanPit13 - I don't know if i'm understanding what your saying, so please correct me if i'm wrong.

What i've been told by countless amounts of UKC judges about 'PR' is that it means nothing more than, that all the dogs in its first three gen ped are UKC reg. 
A 'pitbull' can be 'PR' and still be mainly AmStaff. I have a female (Justice) who is 'PR' with UKC and she is 90% AmStaff. I don't know if you know the AKC dogs by name, but take a look at her ped. Click on all the dogs in her fourth gen and count how many Am Staff are there.... *http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=213190

*Gotti, without a doubt comes from a background of Am Staff. I know his ped and i know about alot of the dogs in it. His history comes from straight AKC dogs. I'll have to look at his his ped again to be able to tell you which ones it was, but the UKC came in from a breeding between a AKC dam and and AKC/UKC dog thats back in Gotti's 8th gen I believe. A few of those pups where reg with UKC using there AKC papers. Thats how the UKC come in with Gotti's history, but his ancestry comes from 100% Am Staffs. Theres nothing wrong with that seeing that the history between AM Staffs and APBTs are pretty much the same *


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

Seems cut and dry to me. You either have a show bred APBT or a performance bred APBT. Doesn't matter what name the AKC wants to attach to it, it's still an APBT. There are some out there that cross the two types, depending on what your breeding goals are. And that's what they are, different types of APBT. If the AKC had stuck with the name APBT we would simply be having a discussion between show stock and performance stock. In reality that's all it is.


----------



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

Midwest Bully said:


> *AmericanPit13 - I don't know if i'm understanding what your saying, so please correct me if i'm wrong.
> 
> What i've been told by countless amounts of UKC judges about 'PR' is that it means nothing more than, that all the dogs in its first three gen ped are UKC reg.
> A 'pitbull' can be 'PR' and still be mainly AmStaff. I have a female (Justice) who is 'PR' with UKC and she is 90% AmStaff. I don't know if you know the AKC dogs by name, but take a look at her ped. Click on all the dogs in her fourth gen and count how many Am Staff are there.... *http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=213190
> ...


'PR' is the first 126 ancestors registered to the UKC. Same thing you are saying. I was pointing out that Gottys parents are both pit not staff but like I said I can't say about his complete bloodline. I am positive that he is 'mixed' with Staff because like 98% of Pits are. In short you may have not understud what I was trying to say because I even confuse my self but I was not trying to say that he had no Staff I him. I just noticed him being brought up and not one had put any of his ped or pics up so I just threw some pics on and threw on that both of his parents where APBTS not Staff. This was just for the people who don't know who he is.


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

"I am positive that he is 'mixed' with Staff because like 98% of Pits are" :hammer: 

Before I post anything more could you please clarify this statement....I'm sure many of us would like to hear the explanation. Thanks 

Also wondering if you read any of my other posts in this thread??


----------



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

gamecock10 said:


> "I am positive that he is 'mixed' with Staff because like 98% of Pits are" :hammer:
> 
> Before I post anything more could you please clarify this statement....I'm sure many of us would like to hear the explanation. Thanks
> 
> Also wondering if you read any of my other posts in this thread??


I have read all the post on this thread and was just saying that all the Pitbulls I know of have Staff in there ped somewhere. Not sure what explanation you are looking for. Sorry

Anyways nothing I said about Juan Gotty was wrong ( that I know of ) So I don't see the big deal on my tell people that don't know who he is about him.


----------



## cane76 (Aug 16, 2006)

gamecock10 said:


> Good point on the history of the Akita, although a lot are still very DA to this day.
> 
> Just to show how biased and hypocritical the AKC is, they have the Tosa listed as one of their Foundation Stock Service Breeds. This is the first step to eventual (it's a looong road) AKC recognition. The Tosa is actively fought in Japan and around the world today! In fact if you go to any Tosa board your bound to find discussions such as "who's the better fighter, Tosa or APBT?". They are a fierce fighting dog with extreme DA.
> 
> Look out Tosa owners, if the AKC accepts them they'll surely demand a name change! :angeldevi


yep just like the FCI changed the name of the presa canario to the dogo canario,although they are still registered by the ukc as presa,it is ceartin the akc will never register the presa,they will however register the dogo....


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

My APBT doesn't have an AKC Amstaff name anywhere in her 7 gen ped. Most ADBA APBT's won't unless someone intentionally breeds to a registered AKC Amstaff. From a "name" standpoint it gets more confusing if your talking about the UKC since A LOT of AKC breeders show AKC and UKC. The Amstaff name was adopted by the AKC after they accepted a numbered of registered APBT's into their registry. All Amstaffs (show version of the APBT) originate from the APBT, not the other way around. I guess that's why your comment was confusing.


----------



## American_Pit13 (Apr 23, 2007)

I gotcha. My dogs are UKC/ADBA and the ADBA is the only one that points out Staffs on the pedigrees. As you are saying I looked back at my peds ( 7 gen) and the few Staffs that are there are all UKC dogs not ADBA. Personally I don't go with Staffs but don't mind them in my pedigree. Question does the ADBA register Amstaff's as Amstaffs or Pits? or do they register them at all?


----------



## gamecock10 (Nov 26, 2006)

They would indeed register an AKC Amstaff as an American Staffordshire Terrier. They would honor the breed name given by the original registry. Any Amstaffs on an ADBA APBT ped would be notated with a *.


----------



## chino0503 (Jan 3, 2008)

OldFortKennels said:


> http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=8214
> So I guess you are on that bandwagon now huh?


was he even a box dog? ive heard of blue champion box dogs before but this wasnt the one.


----------



## OldFortKennels (Mar 10, 2006)

yeah he was a 3xw


----------

